NationStates Jolt Archive

I have no problem with it going ahead.

In RL Portsmouth and Manchester United could play a friendly in Nigeria shortly before playing each other in the Community Shield, so why not us?

Ok, then i'll just let myself get butchered by you three times instead of two ;)

We will take your post Friendly at 0ur place and since SN is not playing us again in quals we would like to offer you a trip to Taeshan Mid.(know i have to go cahnge the schedule post i just did)

OK, i accept. This actually brings Nethertopia's shedule to be very busy indeed. Shall i confirm or you?

Pre: Arch (away) and C&M (home)
Mid: Jeru FC (away)
Post: Arroza (dunno yet) and Tae (away)

IMPORTANT HOST ANNOUNCEMENT

Thanks to a power outage earlier today, my text file that held all the friendly requests has been lost. This means that I'm going to need the vast majority of you to send the telegrams to me again.

I currently have records of the following matchups:

Pre-Qualifying
The Archregimancy v Nethertopia
Nethertopia v Candelaria And Marquez
Rennidan v Candelaria And Marquez
Rennidan v Dancougar
Myedvedeya v Rennidan
Demot v Yafor 2

Mid-Qualifying
Jeru FC v Nethertopia
Yafor 2 v Demot

Post-Qualifying
Taeshan v Nethertopia


As a result, scorination of pre-qualifying friendlies will be delayed until 11am Eastern tomorrow. Qualifying matchday 1 will proceed as scheduled tomorrow evening.

And maybe now I'll jot down the friendlies in something other than Notepad so that we don't get royally screwed over by something like this again...

Talk about bad luck... Anyway, i'll let you know where our match against Arrida will be played as soon as we figured out in which country it will take place. I hope other people will notice this slight malfunction, otherwise you'll have an easy scorination to do.

That's a deal. Would your team like to spend some quality time in Nethertopia or should the Falcons take a plane to your lovely country? I'll send a confirmation to Veph, as soon as i know it.

@ Arroza, preferably. Thanks.

So Daehanjeiguk has brought the BCS to the NSWC. God help us all.:eek:

Arroza, how about coming here for a friendly?

Arroza, how about coming here for a friendly?

Sure, pre-qualifying. Let me get at Vephrall.

@ Arroza, preferably. Thanks.

Our fourth away game, shoop! My players will see a lot of the world this campaign.

So Daehanjeiguk has brought the BCS to the NSWC. God help us all.:eek:

Not quite. Bringing the BCS to the NSWC would be having us rank the teams OOCly and ICly every few matchdays, combining those results with the ELO and KPB rankings, and then using that to decide who qualifies. We'd be all like, "Dancougar shouldn't qualify because he doesn't have any wins against teams in the KPB top 25, whereas Newmanistan have road draws and the quality win over Lovisa. On the plus side, Dancougar, we'd be happy to bring you in to play Rennidan in the Chedderoos (TM) Advanced Prime Factorization Bowl."

The best part is that rank, randomness, and RP are not the only factors. We could argue over how much weighting we give the computer rankings versus our own!

On a completely different tangent, it would be interesting to pull up old WC threads from as far back as we can find them, and run it from there to try and get more accurate ELOs.

Its like I'm never going to qualify. :(

World Cup 43 will be pretty interesting though.

We will take your post Friendly at 0ur place and since SN is not playing us again in quals we would like to offer you a trip to Taeshan Mid.(know i have to go cahnge the schedule post i just did)

Lovely jubbly, we'll accept that one.

I'll leave it to you to tg, the hosts.

Not quite. Bringing the BCS to the NSWC would be having us rank the teams OOCly and ICly every few matchdays, combining those results with the ELO and KPB rankings, and then using that to decide who qualifies. We'd be all like, "Dancougar shouldn't qualify because he doesn't have any wins against teams in the KPB top 25, whereas Newmanistan have road draws and the quality win over Lovisa. On the plus side, Dancougar, we'd be happy to bring you in to play Rennidan in the Chedderoos (TM) Advanced Prime Factorization Bowl."

The best part is that rank, randomness, and RP are not the only factors. We could argue over how much weighting we give the computer rankings versus our own!

On a completely different tangent, it would be interesting to pull up old WC threads from as far back as we can find them, and run it from there to try and get more accurate ELOs.


I understand the reasoning for your "ELOish" ranking system, BUT someone is going to misunderstand what you are doing posting a 2nd set of rankings. Not to mention you might start someone to consider doing the same thing and waste about 5 or so pages in this thread trying to convince the NSWCC to use their rankings instead.

I understand the reasoning for your "ELOish" ranking system, BUT someone is going to misunderstand what you are doing posting a 2nd set of rankings. Not to mention you might start someone to consider doing the same thing and waste about 5 or so pages in this thread trying to convince the NSWCC to use their rankings instead.

If that happens, I'll personally tell them that the KPB ranks have established by the WCC as the official ranks to be used for a number of reasons - notably because of its ease of use, its ability to reflect progress of teams relative to their performance, and its simplicity (relative to other systems). Since I have to redo the ranks after every match, no WC host is going to want to - in their right mind - want to add burdens to their workload unless absolutely necessary. KPBs have been the established norm for a long number of WCs, so I'd personally view any attempt to replace them with extreme suspicion, especially as KPBs have been tested, tried, modified as needed, and basically adapted to the WC. A new rank system will not have the same tolerance for error, and I'd expect a lot of people to protest a new system as "biased" in some way if they don't like what they see.

Nonetheless, my principal intent is not to encourage people to start making their own rank system (especially as mine has been the product of countless excel projects since WC36); it's more a personal hobby, and I'd be the last person to encourage any host (myself included) to use it as the ranks for scornation, most principally because I wouldn't know how to adapt it adequately to most scorinators (especially NSfooty). And considering that the next few weeks are going to be a hard crunch time, I'm not interested in adding extra burdens upon myself beyond what I believe to be mildly amusing and enjoyable ventures.

That said, I do understand what you mean, and I also hope that no one decides to make a scorinator and implore anyone else to use it for score purposes.

On another note, I vehemently despise the BCS system - if it were up to me, I'd hack and burn any person who thought of the idea, salt their property thoroughly, and excise the BCS from the modern vernacular of American intercollegiate competitions (or any competitions for that matter).

...On another note, I vehemently despise the BCS system - if it were up to me, I'd hack and burn any person who thought of the idea, salt their property thoroughly, and excise the BCS from the modern vernacular of American intercollegiate competitions (or any competitions for that matter).

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I personally call the BCS the BULLCRAPSHIT.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I personally call the BCS the BULLCRAPSHIT.

Absolutely. I hate having to listen to people talking about who deserves to be in the championship game. Look, if you win your conference and beat everyone in a playoff, you deserve it, no questions asked. Argh.

Absolutely. I hate having to listen to people talking about who deserves to be in the championship game. Look, if you win your conference and beat everyone in a playoff, you deserve it, no questions asked. Argh.

Yes. And if you don't even reach your conference championship game, you do not deserve it. Yes, I'm talking to you, 2007 Georgia. (And Florida, if you don't mind, next weekend can you help ensure the same situation occurs again? Thanks.)

On the other hand, a BCS-type system might help cut Valanora's lead a little bit...hm, maybe this is worth pursuing after all...

*runs from his co-host*

(THIS is a VERY MOCK POST)

THE NSWCBCS Standings:


Valanora 1.0000
Capitalizt SLANI .9292
Zwangzug .9286
Starblaydia .8952
The Archregimancy .8951
Bostopia .8352
Milchama .8249
Cafundéu .8135
Daehanjeiguk .7862
Jeruselem .7568
Tynelia .6321
Ad’ihan .6238
Wentland .6104
Bazalonia .6002
Vephrall .5893
Qazox .5678


The NSBCS formula:

(KPB rating*√-1)/(Nation's most recent #1 Box Office movie opening weekend gross*Number of Serious posts on the NSWCDT)+random number between π² and e²= BCS rating

That equation above makes more sense than the RL BCS formula!

Which would set up these Bowl matchups:

National Championship:
Valanora vs. Capitalizt SLANI

Orange Bowl:
Zwangzug vs. The Archregimancy

Fiesta Bowl:
Starblaydia vs. Cafundéu

Sugar Bowl:
Bostopia vs. Daehanjeiguk

Rose Bowl:
Jeruselem vs. Milchama

Cotton Bowl:
Tynelia vs. Vephrall

Capital One Bowl:
Wentland vs. Bazalonia

Peach Bowl:
Ad’ihan vs. Qazox

(yes I know that the last 3 bowls aren't part of the BCS, but if they allowed 16 teams in, then they would be

Yes. And if you don't even reach your conference championship game, you do not deserve it. Yes, I'm talking to you, 2007 Georgia. (And Florida, if you don't mind, next weekend can you help ensure the same situation occurs again? Thanks.)

On the other hand, a BCS-type system might help cut Valanora's lead a little bit...hm, maybe this is worth pursuing after all...

*runs from his co-host*

/me is much more worried about losing to Virginia at home. WTF?

Its like I'm never going to qualify. :(

World Cup 43 will be pretty interesting though.

Setting aside the tangential discussion of ranking a bunch of inexplicably popular steroid-pumped teenagers for a moment...

Please don't get discouraged!

It can sometimes take a few tournaments to qualify. But if you stick with it, you'll get there eventually.

Its like I'm never going to qualify. :(

World Cup 43 will be pretty interesting though.

Forgive me if I am wrong Greal but you are fairly new (unless I never noticed you before) but it may take awhile the last cup JERU FC took 8 cups to get in, just beating me to it which would have been 4 times but I won't be qualifying this one either.

But keep it up, you will get in at some point, and if you enjoy the RP and more importantly other peoples RPs then hey it isn't all wasted.

Forgive me if I am wrong Greal but you are fairly new (unless I never noticed you before) but it may take awhile the last cup JERU FC took 8 cups to get in, just beating me to it which would have been 4 times but I won't be qualifying this one either.

But keep it up, you will get in at some point, and if you enjoy the RP and more importantly other peoples RPs then hey it isn't all wasted.

It took Jeruselem - 8 cups too. So close so many times.

/me is much more worried about losing to Virginia at home. WTF?

Yeah, so much for VT keeping us out of the championship game - we just knocked ourselves out there...

Ah, well. Must keep a positive outlook. 6-2 is still better than I expected us to be doing at this point in the year. :)

1. That wouldnt be exactly right. With the bcs bowls they play the top two against each others and 1 mid major plus the BCS conference winners, and a few runners up(winners in ship). I reall don't like the way they do it(hopefully a playoff when im in college)
2. I would like to invite you all over to my new thread for Taeshnai Embassies and such. Ic a computer crash at the headquaters.(ooc all the people didnt enter embassies and know i have a page for them. So al come)

-snip-

Wouldnt it be great if they could just do College Football like College Basketball? I would definitely watch the "march madness" of football a lot more than the BCS...

When is MD1? I wanted to write my post today, but I need to know when the scores are out....

I live in the western Pacific...

In about and hour and a half - 12:15GMT, however that translates...

There will actually be a short delay, again due to RL issues. Scores should be up in the next 30-45 minutes.

And this is the approximate time of day that scores should be posted each day, generally speaking. This morning's friendlies were an exception.

..."One of the most wildly inconsistent and underachieving of long-standing World Cup teams? They may have crept into the top 10, Juan, but you'll forgive me for not shaking in my little Dreamed Realm booties."...

Why do you have to drag the truth into the WC? :p

Weird, a team of hooligans (SN) coached by a Jeruselemite ... beats the Monks.

Nice, we have a KPB, ELO and Media Poll. My evil plan is proceeding smoothly!

Nice, we have a KPB, ELO and Media Poll. My evil plan is proceeding smoothly!

Who says it's YOUR evil plan? :rolleyes:

Nice, we have a KPB, ELO and Media Poll. My evil plan is proceeding smoothly!

I call dibs on Sagarin. :p

I call dibs on Sagarin. :p

Your quite welcome to try them.

Weird, a team of hooligans (SN) coached by a Jeruselemite ... beats the Monks.

Hooligans? We've only ever destroyed one stadium, had our FA start a war and throw pistachios at people.....ah I see what you mean. :p

...

Should I hire a double amount of stewards when your team comes to visit SN, or isn't it that bad? ;)

...

Should I hire a double amount of stewards when your team comes to visit SN, or isn't it that bad? ;)

They only throw nuts at Dallas/Sallad people. Unless there's some hiding in the Nethertopia team ...

God is a dead man.

Or woman.

Whatever.

God is a dead man.

Or woman.

Whatever.


Also sprach Zarathustra!

I know this one is pretty easy but a free taco for 10.00 if you know what Kosovoe's RP was based off of.

I know this one is pretty easy but a free taco for 10.00 if you know what Kosovoe's RP was based off of.

Taking a guess at Orwell's Animal Farm?

That or just generally the politics of the Soviet Union, haven't read Orwell in too long, but Napoleon was the pig who threw Snowball (metaphor for trotsky) out, so that would make sense. Also, wasn't the pig propaganda guy named Squealer, and your press correspondent was named "Squaler"... I might be completely wrong, but hey, it's worth a try for the taco. :p

Taking a guess at Orwell's Animal Farm?

That or just generally the politics of the Soviet Union, haven't read Orwell in too long, but Napoleon was the pig who threw Snowball (metaphor for trotsky) out, so that would make sense. Also, wasn't the pig propaganda guy named Squealer, and your press correspondent was named "Squaler"... I might be completely wrong, but hey, it's worth a try for the taco. :p

You sir, win a free taco.

Also sprach Zarathustra!

Wrong Nietzche. The Gay Science is more like it.

You sir, win a free taco.

whoo!

Remember, educate yourselves, kids. It'll get you free mexican food. :p

Wrong Nietzche. The Gay Science is more like it.

Actually, I wasn't attempting to quote Nietzsche at all.

Krytie was saying something on the lines of a great revelation, and I just wanted to add a bit of humour to it, "thus spake Zarathustra."

But thanks for informing us all which book the phrase did come from :P

Actually, I wasn't attempting to quote Nietzsche at all.

Krytie was saying something on the lines of a great revelation, and I just wanted to add a bit of humour to it, "thus spake Zarathustra."

But thanks for informing us all which book the phrase did come from :P

Nietzsche is a dick.

Question to the Archregimency: Are you guys supposed to be Russian Orthodox, or a different type of Christianity?

Actually, I wasn't attempting to quote Nietzsche at all.

Krytie was saying something on the lines of a great revelation, and I just wanted to add a bit of humour to it, "thus spake Zarathustra."

But thanks for informing us all which book the phrase did come from :P

Actually, I was venting spleen at having lost to MSS. Although great Revelations gives me an RP idea for the return game.

Heh heh.

Question to the Archregimency: Are you guys supposed to be Russian Orthodox, or a different type of Christianity?

I think Byzantine-style Greek Orthodox.

I think Byzantine-style Greek Orthodox.

ah, ok

I suppose my Russian Orthodox nation would be considered a "perversion of the faith" in their country then...:p

ah, ok

I suppose my Russian Orthodox nation would be considered a "perversion of the faith" in their country then...:p

Perversion? Nah, that's us!

Perversion? Nah, that's us!

Truer words were never spoken

Only 45th in the Han ranks? I guess some people just aren't getting paid attention to. :)

Only 45th in the Han ranks? I guess some people just aren't getting paid attention to. :)

Well, it's hard to move along the ranks if you're moving with everyone :P

Well, it's hard to move along the ranks if you're moving with everyone :P

Dang winners. ;)

Question to the Archregimency: Are you guys supposed to be Russian Orthodox, or a different type of Christianity?

Pan-Orthodox, my beloved brothers in the One True Church (Jeruselem's mistaken here).

IC'ly, the nation's loosely based on Mount Athos, but the constituent monasteries feature elements from all RL canonical Orthodox churches. For example, I have monasteries called 'Xenophon' and 'Borisoglebsky'.

OOC, we're Moscow Patriarchate in RL.

Well, it's hard to move along the ranks if you're moving with everyone :P

A bit like the stock market! :p

Okay, so last night while I was coming up with another novelty ranking system, I stumbled upon what I think could be a solution to the style modifier controversy.

It's been several weeks since this was last discussed, so for the benefit of any newcomers, here's what I'm talking about in a nutshell:

It was discovered a few months ago that there is a demonstrable optimal strategy for a nation's use of style modifiers as implemented in most of the commonly used scorinators in order to get the best results. Put simply, it is done by focusing on defense when you're first starting out, and then as you rise up the ranks, start going on the attack. At the beginning, this helps increase your chances of getting a lucky draw or upset over a higher-ranked nation because they won't score as many goals against you. Later in your career, it helps to prevent the same as you will score more goals.

So how can this be fixed? Well, what I've discovered wouldn't really lead to a direct fix, but rather an indirect one by affecting the rankings. The (potential) answer is: goal ratio.

A team's goal ratio pretty much shows the exact opposite of the current effect of style modifiers. As stated above, style modifiers currently reward defensive low-ranked teams and attacking high-ranked teams. However, these are also the teams that would have the worst goal ratios compared to other teams of similar ranking.

Let's look at some examples. Before I begin, let me note that I am making an assumption here that the use of style modifiers has little effect on a team's final goal difference, but simply results in more or fewer goals being scored by each team in each match. I'm really not so sure that this is true (particularly for the high-end teams), but bear with me here.

First, the low-ranked teams. Let's take a look at three teams, one attacking, one neutral, and one defensive, all of whom end up with the same goal difference:

P GF GA GD Goal Ratio
Noobistan 14 17 27 -10 17/(17+27) = .3864
New Republic 14 12 22 -10 12/(12+22) = .3529
Recentopia 14 8 18 -10 8/(8+18) = .3077

As you can see, the most defensive team, the one most likely to have gotten a few lucky results against higher-ranked teams, has a significantly lower goal ratio.

And as for the higher-ranked teams:

P GF GA GD Goal Ratio
Old Dominion 14 41 27 +14 41/(41+27) = .6029
Veterania 14 36 22 +14 36/(36+22) = .6207
Dinosauria 14 32 18 +14 32/(32+18) = .6400

We see the opposite effect: the most attacking team, the "safest" from being upset, ends up with the lowest goal ratio.

So what if, in addition to just the raw overall record that is currently used, goal ratio was also made a component of the rankings? Basically, instead of the currently known strategy that exists with respect to style modifiers, their use would instead become a tradeoff. The current strategy would simply become the strategy for success now, at the possible expense of the future (via the rankings). Meanwhile, the opposite approach would put a little more focus on the future, while reducing (if you're low-ranked) or increasing (if you're high-ranked) the possibility of an upset. And opting for a style modifier around zero would produce more of a balance between the two.

Of course, a drawback of adding goal ratio to the rankings would be that they would make them a little more complicated and a bit more work to maintain (you'd have to store GF and GA in addition to total points).

So that's my preliminary analysis. What do y'all think?

So how can this be fixed?

If you want a new nation's opinion here it is.

You're analysis aside, why does this need to be fixed? It would seem logical for a new nation to want to have a defensive focus against higher ranked teams if this was the real world, and for that to be the best way for a new nation to have to success.

If I'm "Newly Declared Independent Country" playing Brazil in a friendly do I want to get into a shootout with them, or do I want to play defensively? My best chance at the upset is to play men back and play as defensively as I possibly can. Getting into a shootout with them wouldn't make any sense.

If New Independent Country shocked Brazil in the real world, is it more likely to be 5-4, or 1-0? This is what I'm getting at.

Likewise, when Brazil plays Team Neutral, they should be wanting to be explosive and offensive as they can. If they decided to sit back, then they're playing into Team Neutral's hands, thus bringing the balance of power closer together. Being offensive helps them exploit their advantage over Team Neutral.

Now when Team Neutral plays New Independent Country, Team Neutral isn't necessarily going to bring it the same way Brazil would, thus making New Independent Country not likely to be as successful.

I like the way it all works right now. It doesn't need fixing. It's realistic.

I like the way it all works right now. It doesn't need fixing. It's realistic.

It needs fixing because it allows teams to statistically manipulate their style modifier to improve their chances of winning.

It needs fixing because it punishes teams that, for IC reasons, choose not to play the styles that maximise their chances.

It needs fixing because, pace your analogy, it isn't realistic. The chances of a team playing an Italian defensive style - which seems to have suited Italy rather well over the last 78 years - doesn't stand as much of a chance of winning the tournament as a team playing all-out attack.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying that I encourage Veph to experiment around the edges, and if I follow through with my vague idea of bidding to host the next BoF myself, I'd happily test the system in that tournament - though whether a tournament where everyone is a low-ranked team is the best place to test it is admittedly debateable.

Incidentally, anyone put their hand up for the next Cup of Harmony yet?

It needs fixing because it allows teams to statistically manipulate their style modifier to improve their chances of winning.

It needs fixing because it punishes teams that, for IC reasons, choose not to play the styles that maximise their chances.


I'll shut up after this post I just want to respond to this. I just look at the style modifier as the way I coach my team so I don't see knowing a way I can statistically manipulate something as being a negative to get results.

I guess I'm just looking at things differently. I will now shut up and leave this to the pros. Bye! :p

I'll shut up after this post I just want to respond to this. I just look at the style modifier as the way I coach my team so I don't see knowing a way I can statistically manipulate something as being a negative to get results.

I guess I'm just looking at things differently. I will now shut up and leave this to the pros. Bye! :p

Don't worry; your general point isn't a bad one, but - as constructed - style modifiers are far too blunt an instrument for this to carry as an argument.

The argument would make sense if you could change your modifier on a match by match basis. You could then tailor your tactics according to the nature of the opposition. That would be realistic, and teams could additionally work with this to second guess other teams' tactics.

Anyone who's ever hosted a tournament, however, will tell you that match by match style modifier changes are never going to happen because of the amount of extra work that provides for the hosts.

Instead, the style modifier is best perceived in its current format as a general preferred approach to play - strategy rather than tactics. So instead of teams tactically adjusting their style on a match by match basis (realistic application of tactics), under the current system teams can manipulate their overall strategy to maximise their chances of winning regardless of how the opposition might approach a game, or the quality of that opposition (unrealistic application of strategy).

I hope that clarifies my perspective on the difference.

Before I begin, let me note that I am making an assumption here that the use of style modifiers has little effect on a team's final goal difference, but simply results in more or fewer goals being scored by each team in each match. I'm really not so sure that this is true (particularly for the high-end teams), but bear with me here.This is almost certainly scorinator-dependent. In my NSFS simulations from several months ago (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13651250&postcount=4243), the highest seed had a goal differential of 159, 106, and 91 when playing the most attacking, neutral, and most defensive styles respectively. This led to goal ratios of .78, .75, and .72-the opposite order of what you expected. When the bottom-ranked team varied its style at maximum, neutral, and minimum, it had goal differentials of -215, -133, and -90 and goal ratios of .15, .18, and .16.

At the other extreme, the UCS Olympic scorinator (http://www.thirdgeek.com/ns/worldcup/42/formula/) specifically mentions style modifiers acting to randomly increase or decrease the number of goals scored in a match after the margin of victory is already determined. These results would presumably work as predicted with regards to goal ratio-but in that case, the style modifiers wouldn't effect the results anyway, so there'd be noting to fix.

Augh, it's started? Too busy...

Vephrall, you did your study on low ranked and high ranked teams, but what is the impact of this on mid-ranked teams? We seem to be the forgotten ones, and we are probably the most vulnerable to all of these statistical tendencies.

No one has to convince me about the style modifier thing. :wink: We've been "against the grain" to what we should be if we wanted to "statisically manipulate" this ever since we started and likewise have still never picked up a point against the best ranked team in our group. However, as a mid-ranked team, we are vulnerable to the newbies regardless of what the modifiers are (if they are a -3 or a +3, so would this goal ratio make things even more difficult for mid ranked teams? That's what I am asking.). Case in point the Bostopian Empire's surprise draw over us in MD1. This was a +3 165th ranked team tying the 42nd, so these teams can have their day in the sun, too. Maybe not against the Starblaydia's of the group, but they can against us 40's/50's people. If we increase their odds with this goal ratio, then are things becoming more statistically different for the 40's/50's person? We need to consider this as well. ;)

I really would like to see a study on the impact of "zero" modifiers for "middle" teams as well. This is always a question that's been in the back of my mind about the scorinator. Based on the results of this, maybe we should be reconsidering the style modifiers (zero) that is assigned to non-RPing people in this range). You're a good person to conduct the study!

I would really have to see this end of your analysis before I gave your my support or disapproval.

I wonder if my +2 style mod has anything to do with me doing well at home and crap away ..

Oh, my roster has changed
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14120067&postcount=17

Don't worry; your general point isn't a bad one, but - as constructed - style modifiers are far too blunt an instrument for this to carry as an argument.

We've had this argument before. More than once.

Let's not go here again unless you want me to refute all of your points one by one. Again.

Vephrall, you did your study on low ranked and high ranked teams, but what is the impact of this on mid-ranked teams? We seem to be the forgotten ones, and we are probably the most vulnerable to all of these statistical tendencies.

Well, in the case of mid-ranked teams (and by mid-ranked here I mean, say, fourth and fifth seeds in a group of eight), a typical goal difference is going to be somewhere in the vicinity of zero. When that happens, as we see in the table...

P GF GA GD Goal Ratio
Mid-Rank 1 14 21 20 +1 21/(21+20) = .5122
Mid-Rank 2 14 17 16 +1 17/(17+16) = .5151
Mid-Rank 3 14 13 12 +1 13/(13+12) = .5200

...there is very little effect. (Indeed, if I'd gone with a GD of zero for all teams, they'd have all evaluated to exactly .5000.) So the gist of it is, there would be very little effect one way or the other on mid-ranked teams.


However, Zwangzug's point a few posts back is quite valid, and pretty much debunks my entire analysis. The critical assumption, that style modifiers had little effect on goal difference, is simply incorrect. This is likely due to the fact that style modifiers in NSFS alter the chance of scoring a goal on each attack rather than directly altering the number of goals scored, which makes the effect multiplicative rather than additive. It would seem that a more effective (and simpler) approach would be to simply re-implement the style modifiers in a way similar to how they are done in CH's scorinator, thereby eliminating the problem without having to fiddle with the rankings calculations.

LOL, Dae's MD4 rankings and Sorthern Northland won a tank of beer (like they don't drink enough)

LOL, Dae's MD4 rankings and Sorthern Northland won a tank of beer (like they don't drink enough)

What's more amusing is that while looking for ideas last night, Sorth made the suggestion himself :p

What's more amusing is that while looking for ideas last night, Sorth made the suggestion himself :p

Pistachio-nut flavoured beer? LOL

What's more amusing is that while looking for ideas last night, Sorth made the suggestion himself :p

I am psychic. :D

WTF with all of these ranks? Do I need to make my speech now?

WTF with all of these ranks? Do I need to make my speech now?

LOL, I'm still working out how Green Wombat does his weird rankings ...

ooc: omfg i actually won a game! against Bostopia!

*parties for the next millenium*

LOL, I'm still working out how Green Wombat does his weird rankings ...

Just think like a College Football Poll voter.

Addendum: WB Sarzonia!

We've had this argument before. More than once.

Let's not go here again unless you want me to refute all of your points one by one. Again.


Since, with respect, your arguments were entirely qualitative rather than quantitative, you're welcome to try.

It's also worth pointing out that the last time we disagree about this, discussion was largely based on whether style modifiers should be at least temporarily abolished. This time the discussion is over a constructive attempt to see them reformed. Which isn't the same thing at all.

Just think like a College Football Poll voter.

Addendum: WB Sarzonia!

Kinda impossible for me ... I don't live in the Land of the Free (Oppressed).
And drink copious amounts of beer isn't my idea of fun either. :)

Kinda impossible for me ... I don't live in the Land of the Free (Oppressed).
And drink copious amounts of beer isn't my idea of fun either. :)

Basically, it entails forgetting anything that may have happened in past seasons or earlier in the current season to grossly over-exaggerate what happened in the current week.

And there's loss number seven in a row... Nethertopia for world champions!

Basically, it entails forgetting anything that may have happened in past seasons or earlier in the current season to grossly over-exaggerate what happened in the current week.

I can't do it then, I can't put me-self under amnesia ...

Since, with respect, your arguments were entirely qualitative rather than quantitative, you're welcome to try.

Actually, they were based around accepting your quantitative analysis as true (namely, accepting that style modifiers decrease the chances of nations like me), and then pointing why that was outweighed by losing style modifiers all together (as this would remove all realism entirely, which would invalidate any kind of playing defensively. There's the qualitative part of my analysis - there's plenty of evidence that a team with no style modifier scores/lets in more goals than a team with a negative one, which cannot be tolerated when trying to RP defensively. That's the reason, for example, I haven't posted my roster yet for this WC - I want my team to let in a lot more goals than usual the first few MDs [which they certainly have]). So there you go. Don't try to pull the "u haev no math evidence" card, because it doesn't work in this situation, given the point I was arguing.

It's also worth pointing out that the last time we disagree about this, discussion was largely based on whether style modifiers should be at least temporarily abolished. This time the discussion is over a constructive attempt to see them reformed. Which isn't the same thing at all.

Which is why, on this matter, I happen to agree with you. I'm all for a method to try and improve them, as long as it doesn't lead to a reduction of their powers, which is how I read what you were saying.

Advance warning: Scorination will be early tonight. Expect it around 6:30 to 7pm Eastern (2230-2300 UTC).

Actually, they were based around accepting your quantitative analysis as true (namely, accepting that style modifiers decrease the chances of nations like me), and then pointing why that was outweighed by losing style modifiers all together (as this would remove all realism entirely, which would invalidate any kind of playing defensively. There's the qualitative part of my analysis - there's plenty of evidence that a team with no style modifier scores/lets in more goals than a team with a negative one, which cannot be tolerated when trying to RP defensively. That's the reason, for example, I haven't posted my roster yet for this WC - I want my team to let in a lot more goals than usual the first few MDs [which they certainly have]). So there you go. Don't try to pull the "u haev no math evidence" card, because it doesn't work in this situation, given the point I was arguing.

Not to say that I support or condemn any person's views, but... doesn't that kind of underscore your intention? Is your team scoring poorly because they don't have the RP bonus associated with the roster? Or even any other reason?

The one thing that I discovered is that while doing some experiments way back when was that the numbers change randomly. In the pursuit of making things fair and unbiased, we sometimes forget that (1) the scores are not supposed to be fair and unbiased, because teams that RP more often will win statistically significantly more often than those that don't (to save myself from getting into a pickle), and (2) there are two other variables that affect matches - RP and randomness (RP being the one major bias, and randomness being the one equalizing arbiter). Yes, teams with more positive style modifiers tend to score more often than those with negative style modifiers relative their rank - but I think that in order to anything near statistical significance, you'd have to go somewhere around 1000 matches to get enough sampling to ensure that the style modifier bias is non-random. Have I done this? Yes. Have I verified it? Erm.... not yet :p

This is perhaps a multi-pointed blade aimed at criticizing everyone at the same time, so feel free to pummel me with whatever rotten fruit you have at the moment if you don't like what I've just said. But later on, I'll provide another set of scores with infinitesimal match iterations to see if this hypothesis holds out.

Now let's hold hands and sing kumbaya!

Which is why, on this matter, I happen to agree with you. I'm all for a method to try and improve them, as long as it doesn't lead to a reduction of their powers, which is how I read what you were saying.

I still think your original basic argument - that OOC you accepted others' quantitative points that style modifiers as currently conceived were statistically flawed, but in order to support IC realism qualitatively didn't see that as a reason to take prompt action - was problematic.

It's also worth reiterating that nothing requires style modifiers to be used, and that they've been used for less than half of all cups.

But as we agree on the basic matter to hand here and the eventual goal, I think the gentlemanly thing to do is to put that past disagreement - which may have been more of a misunderstanding - behind us, and for all of us to focus together on helping Veph develop the best method to reform the modifiers so as to not disadvantage those nations that, for IC reasons, don't want to use the modifiers that maximise their chances under the current system.

Our primary goal is the same.

Pos Team P W D L GF GA GD Pts
1 Bazalonia 5 5 0 0 15 1 14 15
2 Bostopia 5 4 0 1 21 5 16 12
3 Jeru FC 5 2 0 3 5 4 1 6
4 Arroza 5 2 0 3 7 7 0 6
5 Viltek 5 2 0 3 6 9 -3 6
6 The Islands of Qutar 5 2 0 3 5 12 -7 6
7 The Macabees 5 2 0 3 7 15 -8 6
8 Kjomasasopia 5 1 0 4 4 17 -13 3


Congestion ... woah

Pos Team P W D L GF GA GD Pts
1 Bazalonia 5 5 0 0 15 1 14 15
2 Bostopia 5 4 0 1 21 5 16 12
3 Jeru FC 5 2 0 3 5 4 1 6
4 Arroza 5 2 0 3 7 7 0 6
5 Viltek 5 2 0 3 6 9 -3 6
6 The Islands of Qutar 5 2 0 3 5 12 -7 6
7 The Macabees 5 2 0 3 7 15 -8 6
8 Kjomasasopia 5 1 0 4 4 17 -13 3


Congestion ... woah

It's okay, we'll drop down to 7th place by the end of the next game.

Seriously, I ought to just quit rping, I must be doing it horribly rong, and it seems to not help at all.

Dont give A. Man this is my seventh trip to qualifying only made it once. went 0-1-2. My team has a losing record throut the years. Anything can happen. Im paired with to really good team UCS, and Wentland, and a moderate team Yafolonia and Kosovoe was ahead of them(and is still doing pretty good) of course i started rping with them a little and kn ow there playig good. My teams finally in good form. You just need to rp as much as possible and sometime it will work out.

Basically, it entails forgetting anything that may have happened in past seasons or earlier in the current season to grossly over-exaggerate what happened in the current week.

You win a free Donkey-flavored Burrito, from Taco King!

Pos Team P W D L GF GA GD Pts
1 Bazalonia 5 5 0 0 15 1 14 15
2 Bostopia 5 4 0 1 21 5 16 12
3 Jeru FC 5 2 0 3 5 4 1 6
4 Arroza 5 2 0 3 7 7 0 6
5 Viltek 5 2 0 3 6 9 -3 6
6 The Islands of Qutar 5 2 0 3 5 12 -7 6
7 The Macabees 5 2 0 3 7 15 -8 6
8 Kjomasasopia 5 1 0 4 4 17 -13 3


Congestion ... woah

No draws? Unbelievable. :D

Does anyone have a file to scorinate a match?

No draws? Unbelievable. :D

Does anyone have a file to scorinate a match?

Well it is group 3. So someone has to get 3 points per match, as it's the magic number.

Seriously, I ought to just quit rping, I must be doing it horribly rong, and it seems to not help at all.

I always think that going into a match with Lovisa. They do well enough by random luck, so why not me ^_^ </wangst>

I always think that going into a match with Lovisa. They do well enough by random luck, so why not me ^_^ </wangst>

Sigh....I've been spoiled by the World Bowl.

speaking of which, did anyone ever post ranking after #3 finished? My cpu exploded so I don't have the file at all.

It's okay, we'll drop down to 7th place by the end of the next game.

Seriously, I ought to just quit rping, I must be doing it horribly rong, and it seems to not help at all.

Oh no, I wouldn't quit. RPing is something I only do now if I feel like it. If you want to write an RP and have something to RP about, then writing for the pure fun of it (most of my RPs make me laugh - if they make anyone else laugh is a bonus (Arch, loved your reply to the Emperor's letter by the way, hope my original letter was taken as it was meant - IC ;))) is most of the time worth it, even if you lose the game.

It takes time, I didn't qualify til my 7th attempt, WC35. By which time I'd already won the CoH at my 3rd attempt. Basically, what I'm saying is, you won't enjoy RPing if you force an RP out, and it'll feel even worse if you lose.

Keep going mate, and eventually you'll find yourself up there - when you finally make it to a WC, it'll feel great, despite knowing you're probably going to get absolutely owned :-\

Its more a matter of time at first. You just wont make it on your first try or wsecond usually

RPing is something I only do now if I feel like it.

One could argue that this goes against the spirit of the competition, which is supposed to reward players for their interaction.

If you want to write an RP and have something to RP about, then writing for the pure fun of it (most of my RPs make me laugh - if they make anyone else laugh is a bonus (Arch, loved your reply to the Emperor's letter by the way, hope my original letter was taken as it was meant - IC ;))) is most of the time worth it, even if you lose the game.

But this is also a very good point, and precisely why I continue to spew horrible mecha crossover fanfiction in between match reports :-D

It's okay, we'll drop down to 7th place by the end of the next game.

Seriously, I ought to just quit rping, I must be doing it horribly rong, and it seems to not help at all.

You're doing nothing wrong - so please don't give up!

Everyone has different RP'ing styles, and any host worth his salt - and both hosts, especially Vephrall - are highly experienced and will take that into account.


As others have noted, if you keep plugging away, you'll get there eventually.


But it's also perhaps worth reiterating something that comes up every few cups... RP'ing only slightly increases your chances of winning matches. It doesn't guarantee you victory, and nor should it. When Dancougar writes:
One could argue that this goes against the spirit of the competition, which is supposed to reward players for their interaction.
he's not actually technically correct. RP bonuses do undoubtedly reward those players inclined to invest more time into the WC, but this isn't the base ethos of the competition.

The basic ethos of the competition is that participants should have fun, and enjoy participating.

Nothing states that those who participate more should automatically benefit more.

In any random number generation system, some people will undoubtedly be luckier - and unluckier - than others. The random element is important as it adds a level of necessary unpredictability. Without it, we might as well hand ESF the trophy now.

The tension between those participants who want to see RP rewarded more, and those who think the balance is fine (or even, in some rare cases, rewards RP too much) goes back to the very introduction of RP bonuses. I think we have it just about right, but it's traditional for low- to mid-ranked participants who participate more to want the RP bonus increased.

That's not intended as a criticism, merely an observation; that's simply what almost always happens.

When Dancougar writes: (clip) he's not actually technically correct. RP bonuses do undoubtedly reward those players inclined to invest more time into the WC, but this isn't the base ethos of the competition.

Fair point. I think I interpreted "I only RP when I feel like it" separately from the rest of the post, which gave it a more negative context inside my head.

Does anyone have a file to scorinate a match?

Fair point. I think I interpreted "I only RP when I feel like it" separately from the rest of the post, which gave it a more negative context inside my head.

Yeah, what I meant was that if I have nothing to RP about, no inspiration etc, I won't. I'd rather not RP and risk an RP-inin deficit in my players rather than fire some complete rubbish out (some will say I do even when I feel like RP'ing I'm sure :p)

Some people may say it's unfair on the people who RP and don't win whereas I didn't RP and won my last match (lost the one beforehand, mind), but then again people in the situation I'm in have RP'ed for yonks in an attempt to get into that position. GIVE ME A BREAK FROM THE MADNESS!!! :'(

GIVE ME A BREAK FROM THE MADNESS!!! :'(

But you provide so much great material! I would never have done Calvin and Hobbes if it weren't for the inspirational powers of tobogganing!

not to be rude or put any buddy out, but come on does my Rping really suck so bad that i tie Panuul a brand new puppet 126 spots below me or did they just come up with the biggest luckiest game ever

Sigh....I've been spoiled by the World Bowl.

speaking of which, did anyone ever post ranking after #3 finished? My cpu exploded so I don't have the file at all.

I don't believe those new rankings have actually been done by someone else yet. I will do them this weekend.

Taeshan.... geez... i'd love to be sitting in 2nd place right now. Your RP's are obviously accomplishing something.

not to be rude or put any buddy out, but come on does my Rping really suck so bad that i tie Panuul a brand new puppet 126 spots below me or did they just come up with the biggest luckiest game ever

Once again, RP bonus isn't everything. It is chiefly about RANDOMNESS, not RPing.

still. There got to be something done about a top 40 team rping every game(sometimes twice) then tieing a team thats rped a little in its first Cup and very very low ranking.

I don't believe those new rankings have actually been done by someone else yet. I will do them this weekend.

Taeshan.... geez... i'd love to be sitting in 2nd place right now. Your RP's are obviously accomplishing something.

When I realized no one had done them yet, I went and didi them. I'll post them tomorrow.

still. There got to be something done about a top 40 team rping every game(sometimes twice) then tieing a team thats rped a little in its first Cup and very very low ranking.

I went to a local game this evening between a very high ranked team and a very low ranked team (on a low scale level). Guess who won? Upsets happen.

You should know how this works by now though. ;)

Taeshan, just be glad that SO FAR you're still undefeated.

AND a note about my Rankings.

Yes they are influenced by the most recent result. The bigger your win, the better the odds that you might jump up a few spots.

As for reasons why Team X didn't fall out after their loss to midlevelistan, but team Y fell out after their loss to newbiestria? I am "thinking" like a NCAA voter. IF the #4 team loses to #17, they'll drop in the poll, but not out of the top 25, but if #8 loses to an 0-8 weaking at home, odds are they aren't going to be ranked at all.

As for the 1st place votes, once again I am "thinking" like a NCAA voter. If #4 beats #5 soundly, while #3 struggles, but wins against a 2-6 weakling, odds are the #4 team will move up while #3 moves down, even though #3 still may get 1st place votes, while #4 doesn't.

hope that clears it up a bit.

We all know how it works. No doubt we've all produced what we thought were at least reasonable RPs, only to (a) lose to a lower-ranked team or (b) fail to upset a higher-ranked one.

We also all know the feelings of doubt that we periodically get about the quality of our RPs - are they good enough?

We also know how it can sometimes be difficult to come up with ideas - novel ones, at least. Note how most of my RPs this WC have been exactly the same format, to provide an example.

It's something that none of us can explain - especially not a relative newcomer like myself. I suppose the answer is just to keep going.

(And yes, I wrote all this after seeing the loss to Prux that has dumped us in fifth place - so I too know the disillusionment.)

hey im new to football on NS and id like to know what tournaments are actually out there...can someone help me? preferably in Telegram form. thanks!

We also all know the feelings of doubt that we periodically get about the quality of our RPs - are they good enough?

Oh man, mine come in several flavors of boring. There's the ones which are totally bland and formulaic, then there are the ones where people do a lot of talking using stock dialogue, and then there are the long ones which try to describe things well but only show off how small my vocabulary actually is. Yet, my continued efforts are going a long way to realizing my secret evil goal of making Russian novels more riveting by comparison.

hey im new to football on NS and id like to know what tournaments are actually out there...can someone help me? preferably in Telegram form. thanks!

First off is the BoF, which you know, then the World Cup.
If you not qualify for the World Cup, then you can play in the Cup of Harmony, which is basically a losers World Cup)

Then you got 3 other non-KPB ranking affecting tourneys.
the U-21 deBrandini Cup, which (ooc: correct me if i'm wrong) is WC-affliated, which is like the RL U-21, U-19 and U-17 World Cups, which most nations use to "develop" future World Cup teams.

Then there is the OXEN Cup, (run by myself, cheap pop! :rolleyes:) which is the longest running non-WC sanctioned open football tourney. Or the Oriental Cup, run by Daehanjeiguk, which is limited to IC oriental or oriental leaning (ooc: once again correct me if I'm wrong) nations.

The latter 3 Cups are basically filler in between the End of the World Cup/CoH and the beginning of the next BoF.

UNOFFICALLY the tourneys run on a 4-year cycle, which I use, but which will vary depending on the nation. The unoffical Cycle according to Qazox:

Year 1 April-June: Di Brandini Cup
Year 1 September- Year 2 May: Baptism of Fire
Year 2 September- Year 3 November: World Cup Qualifiers
Year 3 June/July: AOCAF Championship
Year 4 (Feb/Mar): Cup of Harmony
Year 4 (June/July): WORLD CUP
Year 4 (Oct/Nov): Oxen Cup and Oriental Cup

The only WCC-affiliated tournaments are the WC itself, the BoF and the CoH. Nothing else. Also important to note that the CoH is technically still invite-only, usually depending on the hosts. Point being that the CoH is only for teams that RPed in the WCQs, not open to one and all.

You need at minimum, 8 wins to qualify correct? I'm predicting Greal will win seven matches. :(

Does anyone have a file to scorinate a match?

Doesn't look like anyone's answered this yet.

Go to the bottom of any of Vephrall's posts (try the World Cup 43 scores thread), and you'll find a link to a .zip file for the scorinator used for most recent WCC-sanctioned tournaments.

thanks everyone!

Doesn't look like anyone's answered this yet.

Go to the bottom of any of Vephrall's posts (try the World Cup 43 scores thread), and you'll find a link to a .zip file for the scorinator used for most recent WCC-sanctioned tournaments.

I found it in his sig, and I'm not sure how to open it, it keepigns showing debugging error.

Oh man, mine come in several flavors of boring. There's the ones which are totally bland and formulaic, then there are the ones where people do a lot of talking using stock dialogue, and then there are the long ones which try to describe things well but only show off how small my vocabulary actually is. Yet, my continued efforts are going a long way to realizing my secret evil goal of making Russian novels more riveting by comparison.

Not true. You actually almost made me want to watch Death Note for a second there, and you inspired the current run of anime-based rping.

You need at minimum, 8 wins to qualify correct? I'm predicting Greal will win seven matches. :(

It depends on the group. Group 3's so logjammed that you might make it out with 6 wins, a tie, and a good goal differential.
Doesn't look like anyone's answered this yet.

Go to the bottom of any of Vephrall's posts (try the World Cup 43 scores thread), and you'll find a link to a .zip file for the scorinator used for most recent WCC-sanctioned tournaments.

So far as I know it's also the sanctioned scorinator for the World Bowl (shameless plug!)

Jeru FC are doing real well (badly).

You need at minimum, 8 wins to qualify correct? I'm predicting Greal will win seven matches. :(

Eight wins out of fourteen games seems a bit low, but definitely reasonable. It really depends on the rest of the group.

that sounds right thouigh 24 points. That would make sense.

that sounds right thouigh 24 points. That would make sense.

Depends on the group. I seriously think 19 and a +5 goal differential will get it done.

OFFICIAL WCC PRESIDENTIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

1) I've revived the Presidential Announcements thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=414525&page=5


2) Bids for the forthcoming Cup of Harmony are hereby officially encouraged.

Hosting notes

Tonight's scorination is tentatively scheduled for 8pm Eastern (0000 UTC). This may end up being slightly later if my Yellow Jackets require overtime to take care of FSU, but should certainly be no later than 9pm. Reason being, 8pm also happens to be when the FM09 demo is being released, and it would be best for me to already have scorination out of the way by then. :p

Over here in North America, summer time (I hate the term 'DST') is ending tonight, so scorination times as seen from your part of the world may vary. Check this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14127633&postcount=23) for more info.

Mid-qualifying friendlies are tomorrow. I received some requests earlier, but if you have more you'd like to schedule, please inform my telegram box.

Finally, scorination duties will be transitioning over to ESF beginning with MD8 on Sunday and proceeding through the remainder of qualifying, so start sending your unmarked brown envelopes over his way. :p

Not tree... you inspired the current run of anime-based rping.

Ah, the real question is whether or not that's a good thing ^_^

Although little J-Mac seems to approve. I'll have to invent more parody shows now.

Hosting notes

Tonight's scorination is tentatively scheduled for 8pm Eastern (0000 UTC). This may end up being slightly later if my Yellow Jackets require overtime to take care of FSU, but should certainly be no later than 9pm. Reason being, 8pm also happens to be when the FM09 demo is being released, and it would be best for me to already have scorination out of the way by then. :p



Damn sellouts and not being able to get tix.

Ah, the real question is whether or not that's a good thing ^_^

Although little J-Mac seems to approve. I'll have to invent more parody shows now.

Yes he does and I have to also say that for me, this line in your RP was priceless...

And guys, that goes back to a time when you could always put money on Newmanistan reaching the championship game of anything not called the World Cup, and then losing.

Hosting notes

Tonight's scorination is tentatively scheduled for 8pm Eastern (0000 UTC). This may end up being slightly later if my Yellow Jackets require overtime to take care of FSU, but should certainly be no later than 9pm. Reason being, 8pm also happens to be when the FM09 demo is being released, and it would be best for me to already have scorination out of the way by then. :p

Over here in North America, summer time (I hate the term 'DST') is ending tonight, so scorination times as seen from your part of the world may vary. Check this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14127633&postcount=23) for more info.

Mid-qualifying friendlies are tomorrow. I received some requests earlier, but if you have more you'd like to schedule, please inform my telegram box.

Finally, scorination duties will be transitioning over to ESF beginning with MD8 on Sunday and proceeding through the remainder of qualifying, so start sending your unmarked brown envelopes over his way. :p

Regarding those telegrams, I would please like them to be addressed to the inbox of Valanora or Vyinta as I have several telegrams in ESF's inbox that I need to keep track of. Thank you.

Damn sellouts and not being able to get tix.

Wow, good thing I couldn't go. I would have had a heart attack in the stands.

Wow, good thing I couldn't go. I would have had a heart attack in the stands.

That was an absolutely amazing game! I'm actually at a loss for words right now, but I have to say I have never in my life been more excited than when we rushed the field after that one.

...Anyway, scorination in 20 minutes or whenever I can calm down enough to actually do it, whichever is later.

First of all, I must excuse myself for making this random but brave foray back in NS. I must confess that my absence has been the result of this wonderful paper due on Monday - discussing the perspective of the Black Death as given by a modern author - and it has been consuming the great amount of my time as the due date arrives. Why am I apologizing? Well, in regards to the so-called "ILA" rankings (and btw, I never gave them any official name, so I'm not exactly certain from whence the styling first appeared...), there has been no precise description of rank changes for the past few matchdays. On that account, I will give full credit to all changes from the last day to the most recent day - which will likely mean before MD8. As a result, there will be one megapost with all of the wonderful rank changes and as such, there will be a lot of rank winners at that time; so no worries!!!

Also, as a few may know, I also took upon the task of codifying the WCC rules. That is still in progress, although for similar reasons, I have stalled any further work until my scholastic activities have been resolved. It is my hope that they will be available for public execution sometime next week.

That was an absolutely amazing game! I'm actually at a loss for words right now, but I have to say I have never in my life been more excited than when we rushed the field after that one.

...Anyway, scorination in 20 minutes or whenever I can calm down enough to actually do it, whichever is later.

I'm gald, as a Gator fan that our 2 biggest rivals lost. I just wish both final scores were 49-10.

GO GATORS, RAH, GATORS, GATORS, RAH!

Bostopia 8-1 Bazalonia

Amazing :p

...but the shot sailed a few inches over the crossbar, much like when a long snapper in Gridiron snaps it way over the head of the punter...

Damn, you got me. And I've got nothing since you goons had to go and win that thing with hitting and the throwing and the rain on the gloivin' ^_^

Now, I don't to make it seem like your kindly ol' Uncle Archregimancy is a nag, but I'd really like to be holding a vote to confirm the Cup of Harmony hosts in the near future.

We are halfway through the qualifiers for World Cup 43, after all, and in little over a week we'll know who's failed to qualify....

So could someone please - pretty please - put their hands up to host / co-host the next CoH, so I can hold a vote to confirm. Or a contested vote if there's more than one hosting option.

As to future tournaments, I'm seriously considering co-hosting the next Baptism of Fire myself ('The Baptism Cup'?), and would welcome expressions of interest from nations who haven't previously hosted a tournament themselves, but are looking for hosting experience, to do all the hard... I mean, serve as co-host.

And now would be the time to start thinking over potential bids to co-host WC44.

The sign-up thread for WC44 should be up by Tuesday evening (UK time).

I would volunteer to help host the next BoF, but I do not know if I have to be a member of the WCC to host it. I was thinking we could do an Orthodox Church-centric BoF, what with you guys and our Russian Orthodox nation.

I would volunteer to help host the next BoF, but I do not know if I have to be a member of the WCC to host it. I was thinking we could do an Orthodox Church-centric BoF, what with you guys and our Russian Orthodox nation.

WCC membership is not required; and new faces are always welcome to hosting. So, go nuts! :)

Perhaps I could ask a question that could well be on newcomers' minds...

What exactly does a host/co-host have to do?

I ask because I am tempted to go for it, but I'm not sure until I know what I have to do.

WCC membership is not required; and new faces are always welcome to hosting. So, go nuts! :)

Alright, if there is no WCC membership requirement, I guess this is a formal request to the Archregimency for a BoF co-host bid.

Perhaps I could ask a question that could well be on newcomers' minds...

What exactly does a host/co-host have to do?

I ask because I am tempted to go for it, but I'm not sure until I know what I have to do.

Perhaps I could ask a question that could well be on newcomers' minds...

What exactly does a host/co-host have to do?

I ask because I am tempted to go for it, but I'm not sure until I know what I have to do.

There are three basic things that a host/co host has to do...

Fixtures - Use a method to assign what teams are in what groups, who they face and when.

RPinating - translating RPs into some sort of score system which either piggy backs on KPB's, ranking system or some how positively affects scores for the RPing team.

Scorinating - using existing points/ranks modified by RP to generate scores for each match that day.

The co-host and host will come to an arrangement about sharing particularily the last 2 duties but it is usually the host that handles the first.

To reply to a few remarks before the %$#^ library closes upon me...

(1) TOP 16 NSWCBCS teams (please note, the lower the #, the better the rank) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14160686&postcount=316)

So that means that we're the least high ranked of those displayed?

(2) yo Dae when are you gonna post those big 5 or so day new rankngs (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14160856&postcount=319)

Ummm... tomorrow, or whenever I get the time (not tonight - unfortunately for me...)

(3) ('The Baptism Cup'?)

To continue the present infatuation with Monty Python, I'd moderately suggest something that connects with the Holy Grail, even though I'm moderately aware that such myths are not as potent in Orthodox doctrine.

(4) GO GATORS, RAH, GATORS, GATORS, RAH!

I've never gotten over whatever the %$#^ "rah" exactly means, and so I've always had this particular inclination to whack anyone who says it.

*whacks Qazox*

Um, okay. I guess it's good that I don't go to intercollegiate matches (even soccer, only because they always schedule it far away or when I'm at work). Otherwise, I'll be that guy you see getting pulled away by security for whacking too many people with a inflatable whacking stick.


And just to confirm that there is no rule barring any non-WCC member from hosting any WCC-affiliated tournament - coming from my collation of WCC-related rules and pornography. That said, the precedent for that is pretty much non-existent (KP being the one noted exception - thanks to Baz for that tidbit of useless crapledge).

To reply to a few remarks before the %$#^ library closes upon me...

(1) TOP 16 NSWCBCS teams (please note, the lower the #, the better the rank) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14160686&postcount=316)

So that means that we're the least high ranked of those displayed?



That is a misprint from QSPN.com, which I unfortunately copied. It will be corrected posthaste!

Some notes on hosting:

My last post has raised some excellent questions, for which there have already been some excellent answers, but summarising some points:

1) Host Eligibility: there are no rules over eligibility, though custom dictates that we prefer for nations to have participated in more than one cup before they host the World Cup itself (exceptions have sometimes been made where a new nation belongs to a more experienced participant).

2) Gaining Experience: the best way to gain experience is to co-host the Baptism of Fire or Cup of Harmony with a more experienced participant. The Baptism of Fire in particular has a long tradition of being used as a means to give newer nations hosting experience with the help of a more experienced 'mentor'. There's no reason why the CoH can't be used the same way, though as the CoH usually has a stronger RP element, the more experienced host may initially have more input on the subjective issue of judging RP bonus awards.

3) Hosting Duties: Baz has already offered a good short summary, but reiterating in one easy-to-reference post... Co-hosts:

Organise the group draws and fixture lists (which also requires some sort of seeding system)
Decide how to judge and award RP bonuses.
Decide which scorination system to use "using existing points/ranks modified by RP to generate scores for each match that day" (we've been using NSFS a lot recently, but this is by no means the only system we've ever used - scorination systems used to be more fluid).
Generate group tables at the end of each match day (which can be the fiddly time-consuming bit!)


It's up to the two co-hosts to decide how to divide duties; some alternate duties each day, others do several consecutive days before handing over to the other host. In some BoF's, the 'newbie' co-host does most of the practical work, with the experienced mentor largely restricted to offering practical advice and emergency scorination cover.


As to why we have co-hosts.... co-hosts are only required by the rules for the World Cup proper. BoFs and CoHs can have, and have had, single hosts; I've single-hosted the Cup of Harmony in the past myself. Co-hosts can help take the burden off scorination, however, and are really handy when RL intervenes and one of the hosts can't scorinate on a specific day.

That's why we require co-hosts for the World Cup proper, incidentally - if something happens to one of the hosts for whatever RL reason, then we still have one person to finish our most important tournament.


As to the upcoming tournaments to hand...

I accept Myedvedeya's offer to co-host an all-Orthodox Baptism of Fire (making it the first all-Orthodox tournament since WC28!). I'll TG him shortly.

I encourage West Zirconia to look at bidding to host the Cup of Harmony; if he's nervous about hosting the tournament himself, I also encourage him to find a more experienced co-host. But please do so with a certain sense of urgency; we need CoH hosts in place in a week.

Arch, would I be eligible to be a co-host for the 35th Cup of Harmony? Didn't really intend to but I expect to have a lot of free time that week that this will likely take place. I ask, since I just co-hosted the 33rd.

Arch, would I be eligible to be a co-host for the 35th Cup of Harmony? Didn't really intend to but I expect to have a lot of free time that week that this will likely take place. I ask, since I just co-hosted the 33rd.

Absolutely. Custom suggests that people don't usually host consecutive versions of the same tournament, but there's nothing stopping you from hosting or co-hosting alternate tournaments.

I'd encourage you to get in touch with West Zirconia to see if you can arrange to co-host CoH35.

And might I add that, assuming the details pass muster, I'd personally be delighted to see a tournament co-hosted by two newer members rather than including one of the usual suspects.

Not that there's anything wrong with the usual suspects, who can all be relied on to do a fine job, but encouraging a bit of new hosting blood can't hurt!

Absolutely. Custom suggests that people don't usually host consecutive versions of the same tournament, but there's nothing stopping you from hosting or co-hosting alternate tournaments.

I'd encourage you to get in touch with West Zirconia to see if you can arrange to co-host CoH35.

And might I add that, assuming the details pass muster, I'd personally be delighted to see a tournament co-hosted by two newer members rather than including one of the usual suspects.

Not that there's anything wrong with the usual suspects, who can all be relied on to do a fine job, but encouraging a bit of new hosting blood can't hurt!

It was that Lawyer, Kombayashi!

OFFICIAL INSANE PERSON ANNOUNCEMENT

Krytenia wishes to host their fourth World Cup, WC44. We want some victim, er, co-host to volunteer for a bid.

Any interest?

Due to an unexpected problem with the transfer of the resume file, it may be several hours until scorination.

Jeese i just realised that when i did my countries % of each religin i forgot JEWs.hmm... Iu quess so me # will go down

Due to an unexpected problem with the transfer of the resume file, it may be several hours until scorination.

Well that sucks. :(

And here I had a GREAT RP planned out... Now.. Nothing.

What a disappointing World Cup for Greal. Even worse then WC42. :(

I hope Cup of Harmony helps.......

Due to an unexpected problem with the transfer of the resume file, it may be several hours until scorination.

Glad it only took 90 minutes ;)

I had a stroke of genius and was able to overcome the problem with a simple solution instead of hours of tedious labor.

I had a stroke of genius and was able to overcome the problem with a simple solution instead of hours of tedious labor.

Praying to Elune and Maggie?

Wait, wait wait... What? Nethertopia took a win? Took two wins?

...

what?

Dang it. Just when I thought i was out, they pull me back in with your clutch victories and your complete wtfness of our group. You know in group 3, the guy that's in 110th place, and never rp's is in 4th place ahead of the 58th and the 34th seeded teams.

Life's a bitch, dude. We all know that.

Life's a bitch, dude. We all know that.

Wasn't complaining, just saying that it's all topsy-turvy.

OK. But life's a bitch anyway ^_^

Well we in Taeshan have gotten some evidence that points two this being are only 7th entrance in the qworld cup so we kindoff jumped the gun on sending someone to the hall of fame. But nobody change the list though. We would have to do it again. Crap... H,mm AND ITS ONLY k'S 5TH.

Status of current WCC-sanctioned tournament hosting bids:


BAPTISM OF FIRE HOSTING BID:

The Archregimancy and reigning Baptism of Fire Champions Myedvedeya hereby officially announce their intention to bid to host the next Baptism of Fire tournament.

[NSFS as scorinator, I set up the group draw and thread, we build an Orthodox Church-oriented RP environment together, Myedvedeya does most of the practical work once the tournament's underway]


CUP OF HARMONY HOSTING BID:

Nothing official yet....

Newmanistan and West Zirconia were being encouraged to think about it.


WORLD CUP 44 HOSTING BID:

Krytenia and ?

Hmmm...

I might consider putting together a BoF bid. It would contain all the great taste of NSFS but wouldn't be as filling as the Orthodox Church.

I might consider putting together a BoF bid. It would contain all the great taste of NSFS but wouldn't be as filling as the Orthodox Church.

By all means do so!

If there are competing bids, I'll hold the usual vote, with a neutral party (probably WCC vice-president Zwangzug) asked to collate and count the votes.

CUP OF HARMONY HOSTING BID:

Nothing official yet....

Newmanistan and West Zirconia were being encouraged to think about it.


We are putting together the finishing touches on the bid. Expect it up later tonight or tomorrow.

If Dancougar so wishes, we'll be happy to help with a BoF bid.

Veph: does NSFS work on linux boxes?

Veph: does NSFS work on linux boxes?
Yes; it’s a Java application and therefore runs equally poorly on several platforms :p

Veph: does NSFS work on linux boxes?

It's Java... So as long as you have Java 6 installed.

If you don't know... go here (http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp) and select an approprate download for yout linux system.

If Dancougar so wishes, we'll be happy to help with a BoF bid.

Roughly when should bids start floating in? I might have missed it, but I didn't see any deadline up for those.

The BoF is still a ways off so I'd expect the bids for that to close perhaps at the start of the WC, after which there'll be a week to vote.

Also, there's one thing to be said for people who can't RP, but there's another to be said for people who won't RP. (Quakmybush, 2nd in Group 4, hasn't RPed [excepting rosters] since World Cup 37 despite repeatedly entering and insisting he was going to start RPing again.)

Ah, good, I have plenty of time to worry about that, then.

I couldn't post a response earlier today, but it doesn't seem to help at all even if I did.

Dae I got a question for ya, but i might have the correct answer anyway.

Am I dropping in your ranks due to Qazox beating "weaker" teams, or is it something else?

It looks like I may not be able to RP for my two nations properly now until tomorrow.

My RP time last night was spent setting up the WC44 sign-up thread (gosh, this WCC president lark is more time-consuming than I thought), and tonight - and shameless plug for anyone living near Cambridge, UK - I have to give a lecture at Cambridge University's Museum of Anthropology and Archaeology.

So probably no RP'ing goodness from me until the 6th.

Anyone want some RP-inin? :p
Cheap cheap! Might have have Dazzarinin in it though.

Parnett: Why do they even include air conditioning in hotel rooms in Myedvedeya to begin with?

My guess is that since it's god-awful cold outside, AC is probably the local equivalent of a space heater :-D

My guess is that since it's god-awful cold outside, AC is probably the local equivalent of a space heater :-D

*local Myedvedeyan*: What are you talking about? It's blistering hot in there!

My guess is that since it's god-awful cold outside, AC is probably the local equivalent of a space heater :-D

One drinks vodka until one is full of the warmth of the motherland, then turns the AC on to cool themselves off.

:(. one paragraph into my RP and the cutoff comes through.

:(. one paragraph into my RP and the cutoff comes through.

It happens man, get used to it.

:( Another loss *sigh*


Even the scorinate thing is letting me down.

:( Another loss *sigh*


Even the scorinate thing is letting me down.

You're eliminated now, you'll have better luck in CoH (since you're playing not all the top seeds there) :)

Teams qualified
* Tynelia

Teams almost qualified
* Cafundéu (11 points ahead of 4th placed team)
* Qazox (9 points ahead of 4th placed team)
* Bostopia (11 points ahead of 4th placed team)

:(. one paragraph into my RP and the cutoff comes through.

I'm glad you missed it. ;)
Seriously though, don't feel as though your RP will be wasted if you miss the cutoff. It will just be applied to the next matchday. In which case, as much RP bonus as you can get for me against Dancougar, the better.

I knew Dancougar was going to beat Starblaydia... just knew it! (even called it in my RP)

A note for World Cup organisers

5 days ago: The Frozen North of Quakmybush ceased to exist.

(They won't qualify so it probably won't matter)

Got an NS2 question here.

Now that the BETA has gone public, where are most of the WC nations hanging out at?

I'm glad you missed it. ;)
Seriously though, don't feel as though your RP will be wasted if you miss the cutoff. It will just be applied to the next matchday. In which case, as much RP bonus as you can get for me against Dancougar, the better.

I knew Dancougar was going to beat Starblaydia... just knew it! (even called it in my RP)

Good. I need a points cushion so I can survive this weekend, since I probably won't get to RP Friday or Saturday's game, and if I do it'll be minimal. Which means I'm counting on the Rocket Report to do a kickass preview and highlights package.

Although in a perfect world, Lovisa and Starblaydia would drop all the points so the three of us don't have to beat each other in the face for that last spot :-D

Good. I need a points cushion so I can survive this weekend, since I probably won't get to RP Friday or Saturday's game, and if I do it'll be minimal. Which means I'm counting on the Rocket Report to do a kickass preview and highlights package.

Although in a perfect world, Lovisa and Starblaydia would drop all the points so the three of us don't have to beat each other in the face for that last spot :-D

Though Lovisa, who hasn't Rp'ed much if ever, should do the nice thing and delcine the invite, looks like its a 3-way dance betwixt ya'll.

I'll be honest and say that there has been a fair amount of wacky results coming from NSFS so far in my scorinations. Some of them just leave me scratching my head and wondering what the heck is going on here. But it is an important part of the system, otherwize there would be no way for nations to move up or down.

Got an NS2 question here.

Now that the BETA has gone public, where are most of the WC nations hanging out at?

Just activated Jeruselem ... there's no damn proper nation search on NS2!

But it is an important part of the system, otherwize there would be no way for nations to move up or down.

Hehe, this is the part where we all stand up and yell "THE MAN CAN'T KEEP ME DOWN!!" and then Margaret slaps us upside the head with a rubber chicken.

I'll be honest and say that there has been a fair amount of wacky results coming from NSFS so far in my scorinations. Some of them just leave me scratching my head and wondering what the heck is going on here. But it is an important part of the system, otherwize there would be no way for nations to move up or down.

Points-based scorination with maxpoints=69, yes? Otherwise, not sure what else would cause wacky results.

A note for World Cup organisers

5 days ago: The Frozen North of Quakmybush ceased to exist.

(They won't qualify so it probably won't matter)

Most Recent Government Activity: 3 days ago

* 3 days ago: Quakmybush was refounded.

Back to serious business.

When are the BoF host bids due by? and Do they have to be co-hosted?

Because I'm considering attempting to host BoF 30.

Good. I need a points cushion so I can survive this weekend, since I probably won't get to RP Friday or Saturday's game, and if I do it'll be minimal. Which means I'm counting on the Rocket Report to do a kickass preview and highlights package.

Although in a perfect world, Lovisa and Starblaydia would drop all the points so the three of us don't have to beat each other in the face for that last spot :-D

I wish it did come down to that game, but I'd rather knock Lovisa out then you. We're just not doing enough in the "big" games while you top three are all playing very well. If one of you was a bit off I'd be more optimistic, but you're all playing well. It's really very reminscient of my WC42 effort.

And this was post #1000! Surely this gives me bonus points for the game with Lovisa. ;)

Most Recent Government Activity: 3 days ago

* 3 days ago: Quakmybush was refounded.

Oh well, good news then.

For the record, Spaam is attempting to start (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571398) a NS2 World Cup.

For the record, Spaam is attempting to start (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=571398) a NS2 World Cup.

Right. I always vaguely suspected he would. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't know why, but he seems to have become unhappy at the way the original World Cup was being run, or had changed, or... who knows. Clearly he feels happier playing with his own ball than playing with the rest of us.

When I have more time tonight, I'll try and arrange a formal vote on my proposal to advertise the NS World Cup on NS2, and will - of my own initiative - advertise the WC44 sign-up thread in NS2. Or Zwangzug should feel vice-presidentially empowered to do the latter for me if you have more time on your hands.

More info on voting for the CoH bid and other bid deadlines tonight too.

Got an NS2 question here.

Now that the BETA has gone public, where are most of the WC nations hanging out at?

I'm in World 67, though not recognised anyone else in there. If anyone's read what else I wrote, ignore it, I mis-read something.

Eventually, we'll all have to go move worlds when BETA finishes if we want to play the "Make Septentrionia Surrender" game.

A World Cup 44 sign-up announcement, complete with disclaimers and notes, has now been posted in NS2:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14177616#post14177616


This should be considered a holding action only designed to tide us over until Han has collated our current rules, and we've had a chance to vote on how to manage the relationship between the World Cup and NS2.

It may well be that we decide to keep the World Cup here in its entirety and leave NS2 to its own devices, or we eventually move wholesale to NS2 if NS1 looks like it's dying - or is closed- but until we actually reach a decision on this important issue, I felt it necessary to keep a tentative foot in both camps.

Thank you,

Your WCC president (posting with the sign-up account).

PS: more announcements soon.

The full Cup of Harmony voting announcement is now up in the presidential announcements thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14177657&postcount=69

As noted, votes from eligible nations (EWCC members) should be sent by TG to the Archregimancy or AIF, please.


Just to give everyone a little more time to prepare bids (especially for the World Cup), bids for the forthcoming Baptism of Fire and the World Cup are due before scorination is posted for the final group match of the Cup proper.

I am uncertain over letting NS2 nations without an NS1 presence into the WC. I'd prefer it if it was made clear they should sign up with their NS1 nations, as most of them would have one.

Group 7 looks a bit close for the top 5. Only 5 points between them and three games to play.

A quick note, Starblaydia and Qazox have also qualified due to the first tie breaker (wins).

A quick note, Starblaydia and Qazox have also qualified due to the first tie breaker (wins).

Whoooo! :hail:

A World Cup 44 sign-up announcement, complete with disclaimers and notes, has now been posted in NS2:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14177616#post14177616


This should be considered a holding action only designed to tide us over until Han has collated our current rules, and we've had a chance to vote on how to manage the relationship between the World Cup and NS2.

It may well be that we decide to keep the World Cup here in its entirety and leave NS2 to its own devices, or we eventually move wholesale to NS2 if NS1 looks like it's dying - or is closed- but until we actually reach a decision on this important issue, I felt it necessary to keep a tentative foot in both camps.

Thank you,

Your WCC president (posting with the sign-up account).

PS: more announcements soon.
This tournament has nothing to do with NS2, and such, should NOT be advertising in the NS2 forums. IN ADDITION, I find this an insult considering I have tried to continue this tournament in NS2. Please, feel free to encourage everyone to join one, or another, or both, but these are SEPARATE games. It's like encouraging WOW players to sign up here.

Right. I always vaguely suspected he would. Thanks for the heads-up. I don't know why, but he seems to have become unhappy at the way the original World Cup was being run, or had changed, or... who knows. Clearly he feels happier playing with his own ball than playing with the rest of us.

When I have more time tonight, I'll try and arrange a formal vote on my proposal to advertise the NS World Cup on NS2, and will - of my own initiative - advertise the WC44 sign-up thread in NS2. Or Zwangzug should feel vice-presidentially empowered to do the latter for me if you have more time on your hands.

More info on voting for the CoH bid and other bid deadlines tonight too.
I have absolutely no problem with the NS World Cup. I merely have grown tired of NS. I encourage everyone to join up in NS2, and am more than happy to hand over the reigns to anyone who wants them. I only started it in NS2 because noone else did. HOWEVER, I'd like you to keep in mind these are SEPARATE games, and it is insanity to try and continue this into NS2. I do not want a major schism here, and yet that is what you are attempting.

There are Mechanical issues to think about.

Where are we going to host the World Cup?

Here in the NS1 forums? if so then forum accounts (unless already created for NS) for NS2 I don't think they'll be able to access NS1 forum?

In NS2 Forums? better for NS2 but could very well not get the attention of any NS1 nations not already in the know.

Some sort of Hybird? ie split somehow across the forums? Too many complications.

While I would perhaps would like NS2 and NS nations to participate together. I don't think it's feasable. And there is also an NS2 issue.... Are we going to split this upto into Worlds? or not? if so how? if not well perhaps we can ignore the worlds thing for RP purposes.

I think in the end NS1 and NS2 WC will end up being separate. They'll be people like me with teams in both cups but some like it in NS1 while others will embrace the new NS2. For me, home is NS1 but I'll muck around in NS2.

This comes from my NS2 nation ... irony
Nudity has lost a lot of its appeal due to the abundance of flesh from the clothes shortage... or maybe it's just the frostbite

Bunch of thoughts to get out there in no particular order...

The WC as we know it features countries all around the "world" as we know it. Some beyond-whether on different planets or parallel universes. Opening it up to NS2 nations wouldn't really be that much of a leap, ICly.

I'm most concerned that having two distinct World Cups running simultaneously would indeed be a "schism" as it's put, especially for people like Jeruselem and Taeshan who would try to be involved in both.

Bazalonia does bring up a good point in that we've had people (one person anyway) trying to sign up in the main signups thread that simply can't post. If there's a true and serious technical disconnect, then it might indeed be be best to let the two tournaments run their separate ways. Trying to organize two tournaments within one bureaucracy seems very difficult.

Some thoughts on the NS1 / NS2 divide from your WCC president.

There are several issues regarding the relationship between the two games and the World Cup that are still unresolved.

These include, but are not limited to:


Whether NS2 is designed to run parallel to, or eventually replace NS1.

Whether NS1 and NS2 nations can post in each others forums (NS1 can clearly post in NS2).

In light of the above, whether its desirable to run a single tournnament for both versions, or a separate tournaments in both.

Whether separate World Cups should be run by one governing body or two.


We're not in a position where we can offer firm answers to these issues just yet.

For the time being, as a temporary holding measure only , I've chosen to advertise the NS1 World Cup in both NS1 and NS2, while we continue to host it in NS1.

Unless the mods have declared otherwise since I last checked NS2, I see nothing in any rules preventing this.

It's my intention, once Han finishes collating our rules for the World Cup, to hold votes on existing proposals that try and regulate the relationship between the World Cup and the two different versions of NS, and to offer these up to a free vote to all WCC nations (which, for the record, includes Spaam as a former co-host).

I genuinely regret that Spaam finds the idea of advertising the NSWC in NS2 to be in any way 'insulting'. His past contributions to the NSWC were valuable and influential - though I'd also suggest that maybe he's being a teensy bit oversensitive here.

I have no doubt that these are difficult issues over which many of us will have strong opinions, and I encourage everyone to share those opinions in the discussion thread.

It's my hope that, by World Cup 45, we'll have a much clearer idea of how these issues will play out, and that we'll also have a much clearer idea of the best way forward.

Yours,

Your World Cup Committee President

The problem I have is that you have arranged the NSWC as a direct competitor to the NS2WC. It is my intention that the tournaments run parallel, not perpendicular. You have prevented that.

1. It has been said multiple times by the admins that NS1 will never be replaced by NS2.
2. There is nothing to stop NS2 nations from posting in NS1 afaik, but NS2 nations do not exist in NS1. There is a completely separate mechanic, which you would be completely negating.
3. These are not merely versions of the same game... these are separate games. What will you do when NS2 brings in war? How will that affect the game? NS2 has the potential to bring other statistics into the game. As I said before, you would be completely negating this.
4. Now you have a completely separate question, which you should have addressed before trying to remove the NS2WC. Considering the technologies behind the games are mostly like to be similar, if not the same at the start, it may be logical to have the NS2WC be run by a second branch of the NSWCC. HOWEVER, you have immediately laid claim to the WC in NS2. Instead of acting before thinking, you surely should have raised the vote first. This I have taken as a personal insult from the President.

Yes, things may be cleared up by WC45. However you abused your power as President by acting without a direct consultation on something so important. Indeed, without consulting myself, as I have clearly tried to start the WC in NS2 as a separate tournament. I would have hope you had more respect for myself in that manner, as a member of the EWCC, and as another who has played this game for over 5 years.

IMHO, I believe you should follow due process, and remove the advertisement until a proper vote has been cast. Which as you correctly stated I still have a say in.

The problem I have is that you have arranged the NSWC as a direct competitor to the NS2WC. It is my intention that the tournaments run parallel, not perpendicular. You have prevented that. <snip>


Spaam, the World Cup 44 posting in NS2 specifically and explicitly states that it's not designed to replace other football tournaments, or to stop those tournaments from calling themselves whatever they want to. You remain free to organise a tournament called the NS2 World Cup, as you are indeed doing. No one has attempted to 'remove' your tournament, or has even suggested that any such removal should occur.

Furthermore, following your complaint in the NS2 moderation thread, a ruling's been made that there is nothing inappropriate or illegal about posting the World Cup 44 sign-up thread in NS2. Your request for a thread lock has been denied.

I have broken no rule - implicit or explicit - of either version of NationStates or of the World Cup Committee. If I had, we'd all know about it.

In the meantime, you remain welcome as an EWCC member to put forward a rules proposal stating that the NSWC should remain on NS1 only, and I'll happily arrange to hold a vote on that alongside any other relevant proposal.

This a friendly host advisment that Matchday 13 will be scorinated approx. an hour earlier than the normal time, at approx. 0:00 UTC. However Matchdays 12 and 14 shall be scorinated at the normal time. We apologize for any inconvience.

Spaam, the World Cup 44 posting in NS2 specifically and explicitly states that it's not designed to replace other football tournaments, or to stop those tournaments from calling themselves whatever they want to. You remain free to organise a tournament called the NS2 World Cup, as you are indeed doing. No one has attempted to 'remove' your tournament, or has even suggested that any such removal should occur.

Furthermore, following your complaint in the NS2 moderation thread, a ruling's been made that there is nothing inappropriate or illegal about posting the World Cup 44 sign-up thread in NS2. Your request for a thread lock has been denied.

I have broken no rule - implicit or explicit - of either version of NationStates or of the World Cup Committee. If I had, we'd all know about it.

In the meantime, you remain welcome as an EWCC member to put forward a rules proposal stating that the NSWC should remain on NS1 only, and I'll happily arrange to hold a vote on that alongside any other relevant proposal.
1. You know full well that calling two tournaments the 'World Cup' is deliberately confusing.

2. No ruling has been made.

3. Of course you haven't broken any rule. I should know, I wrote them. Nevertheless, you have not followed due process.

4. If you so wish. Though I'd like to point out the posts in this thread have been in support of differing tournaments.

Is it the time to pull a lawnchair?

If you so wish. Though I'd like to point out the posts in this thread have been in support of differing tournaments.

And if the will of the participating nations after a vote is that tournaments be run separately, I'll more than happily respect that decision.

I await your proposal with interest and anticipation.


Edit:
And you're quite correct in stating that no ruling on the legality of the NS2 sign-up thread's been made yet. My mistake. I accidentally mis-read the initial reply as being from a Mod, which it seems it isn't. No doubt a ruling will be forthcoming soon enough.

The Sports Minister of Spaam (in NS2), Carmen Victor, uses the ancient teleportation device to transcend the multiverses, and arrive in NS1. Appearing on top of the table in the middle of a discussion session of the WCC, she clears her throat:

"Ahem. We propose that: "Until further discussions and votes have been made, that this incarnation of the World Cup remain in this multiverse, and withhold from attempting to undermine the World Cup of our multiverse." We request that the President put this to vote immediately, that this vote be open, and the result of the vote be decided two days hence."

She then realises that she is naked, and quickly gets off the table to go in search of a cloak.

Okay, I was not going to get into this, but now you are just being ridiculous Spaam. There is no way we would get an accurate gauge of voter's feelings with just two days voting. If you honestly want a vote, then it should have the standard time period of a week just like when voting for Hosts and Presidents.

1. You know full well that calling two tournaments the 'World Cup' is deliberately confusing.

Indeed. In which case you should have set up your tournament with a different name.

3. Of course you haven't broken any rule. I should know, I wrote them.

There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth.

"Ahem. We propose that: "Until further discussions and votes have been made, that this incarnation of the World Cup remain in this multiverse, and withhold from attempting to undermine the World Cup of our multiverse." We request that the President put this to vote immediately, that this vote be open, and the result of the vote be decided two days hence."

Two days?

Now who's the one trying to subvert due process?

Frankly, I find your behavior here insulting, but, hey, that should come as no surprise to you.

I'm also gonna' agree here, a two day voting period seems like a ridiculous way to see the issue pressed through faster than it should be. We need at least one week to decide on a topic as big as this.

As previously stated, and explicitly noted to Spaam, I'll hold an open WCC vote on all proposals put before me (including my own) on the relationship between the World Cup and both versions of NS as soon as Han has finished collating the WCC rules.

No pressure, Han ;)

Spaam: I see no reason you should continue to argue here. As you yourself have said, you want nothing more to do with NS1 (and therefore, its WC). So what gives you the right to question the posting of a thread advertising NS1's WC?

To reply to all...

ESF: This isn't to permanently ban it. This is to just remove the advertising thread until a proper discussion and vote has been held. And I will of course abide by such decisions.

Vephrall: NS2WC was there first. So no, I shouldn't have to change the name. And as I said, the two days is just to remove the advertising thread.

Arch: This vote is merely to stop the advertising thread. Why the delay?

Liventia: If what you say is true (which it isn't), I have every right to say something as the 'founder' of the WC in NS2. Which is not my intention, but negates your comment.

Ahhh this does take me back though. All the way back to WC21 when I had to be an ass just to set up a WCC!

Spaam, you insist on making the point that NS1 and NS2 are two completely different games. Yes, that is the intention.

However both games use the same forum, which is based here on jolt, and are from the same creator/company. So it's not a case of Pepsi vs Coke where the games are two distinct competitors. In fact, where is most of the NS2 userbase coming from right now? You got it, NS1. NS2 also allowed NS1 nations to reserve their nation name, did it not?

Therefore in the official debut of NS2, one in which there is a reliance on NS1, whether you care to admit this or not, it is fair and certainly totally justifiable for their to be tie ins between the games. The long run intention, may be for the games to go their separate ways, right now this not the case. You are more then welcome to start up a World Cup on NS2. But because there is still, at present, a tie between NS1 and NS2, there is nothing wrong with the Archreigmancy making the post that he did. He didn't post it in a way saying "you must do this or this." It was done to let NS2 nations be aware that there is a big tournament out there that they may be interested in on NS1, which again, is a "sister" game to NS2. Especially right now.

Ahhh this does take me back though. All the way back to WC21 when I had to be an ass just to set up a WCC!

There's been a WCC ever since World Cup 2. I should know; I was the person who suggested to Ariddia that a committee be formed to vote on who the next hosts should be, and we voted in favour of TnUI. Two people in a committee - them were the days. That committee was the direct ancestor of the current EWCC.

I believe what you actually meant to say was "I had to be an ass just to set up the current incarnation of the WCC"

Spaam, you insist on making the point that NS1 and NS2 are two completely different games. Yes, that is the intention.

However both games use the same forum, which is based here on jolt, and are from the same creator/company. So it's not a case of Pepsi vs Coke where the games are two distinct competitors. In fact, where is most of the NS2 userbase coming from right now? You got it, NS1. NS2 also allowed NS1 nations to reserve their nation name, did it not?

Therefore in the official debut of NS2, one in which there is a reliance on NS1, whether you care to admit this or not, it is fair and certainly totally justifiable for their to be tie ins between the games. The long run intention, may be for the games to go their separate ways, right now this not the case. You are more then welcome to start up a World Cup on NS2. But because there is still, at present, a tie between NS1 and NS2, there is nothing wrong with the Archreigmancy making the post that he did. He didn't post it in a way saying "you must do this or this." It was done to let NS2 nations be aware that there is a big tournament out there that they may be interested in on NS1, which again, is a "sister" game to NS2. Especially right now.
1) There are other games on Jolt, why not advertise there?

2) Actually, no. They are not run by the same company. NS2 is run by OMAC, NS1 isn't.

3) While you are correct that there are tie ins, please realise if you are a nation on NS1, you are NOT a nation on NS2. And vice versa. Hence they are separate games.

You want NS2 nations to be aware that there is a sister tournament? Sure, post in General. But Colloseum is for NS2 games. In the NS2 universe. This WC is NOT an NS2 tournament. That is the purpose of what I have started. So we can have a presence there. This is not the way to do it, and it is certainly not the way to do it without properly discussing it.

There's been a WCC ever since World Cup 2. I should know; I was the person who suggested to Ariddia that a committee be formed to vote on who the next hosts should be, and we voted in favour of TnUI. Two people in a committee - them were the days. That committee was the direct ancestor of the current EWCC.

I believe what you actually meant to say was "I had to be an ass just to set up the current incarnation of the WCC"
Point. But there were no codified rules. What do you want me to say? I had to be an ass to write the constitution?

2) Actually, no. They are not run by the same company. NS2 is run by OMAC, NS1 isn't.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2008/05/01/index.html#ns1ads

Thu, 01 May 2008

New and Improved Hosting with OMAC Industries

by OMAC

Hi,

The same folks who are working like demons on the epic masterpiece that is NationStates2 have now taken over the hosting and general maintenance of NS. Although the current forums are still hosted in Jolt (we're working on that as well), you should find the site a lot faster as we've migrated it to very beefy servers in our data centre (in New York City, if you're interested).

To cover a little of the monthly server cost (these are not cheap at all!) and make sure that we've got extra resources for general NS development, we're going to put a very small piece of advertising in the left-hand panel of the game. We promise it won't be intrusive and it helps make the game better for everyone :)

Thanks, Tilt

http://www.nationstates.net/page=news/2008/05/01/index.html#ns1ads
Thank you for that, I stand corrected. Though we could make the point that the weren't run by the same company until May.

Thank you for that, I stand corrected. Though we could make the point that the weren't run by the same company until May.

We could, yes. Though I'm not sure such a point would be entirely relevant, as all the events in question occurred after that date.

Further to our on-going discussion, I'll note that ambivalence over the relationship between NS1 and NS2 isn't confined to the World Cup.

Take, for example, this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14179569&postcount=5) by Spartzerina in a thread started by Zwangzug in NS2. The poster is engaging in a NS2 thread while the nation's 'location' explicitly states 'The Council of Narnia (NS1)'.


Whatever our individual opinions over the rights and wrongs of the specific situation, I'm sure we all agree that this is an important issue that needs to be addressed, and I continue to welcome calm and reasoned arguments from all sides of the current debate.

And while some of the discussion has been tense, I'd like to thank everyone for keeping it (mostly) civil so far.

EGADS! I disappear (almost) for 2 days, and this place turns into a bar fight?


@ Arch: I'll have them ready by the end of this weekend - %$#^ school keeps reminding me that I have papers due in November...

As to the NS1 and NS2 debate, I think it's better to formulate our objections by addressing the questions that it raises (rather make assertions that are open and amibguous). A few sample questions:

(1) Is it legitimate for NS2 members to participate in the NSWC?

--- I don't think it's illegitimate. NS1 members could in theory participate in the NS2WC without anyone every knowing it (that is, until they said it), and vice versa. I do believe however, that if the NS2WC is going to be restrictive to NS1 members, we should reciprocate the courtesy by restricting NS2 members from the NSWC (only because we'd be sucking people from them).

(2) Should the NSWC and NS2WC be governed separately?

--- Absolutely. There's no point confusing the situation anymore than it needs to be. The NS2WC will make its own WCC (hopefully with a new acronym, since the WCC holds the right to the name). That's just common sense.

(3) Can a member participates in both the NSWC and NS2WC using their respective NS and NS2 entities?

--- eh... tricky question, and the one I hope has been the focus of our debate (wishful thinking, judging by what I'm reading). This question relates to the first question, but in a unique manner. I'm honestly not very familiar with how NS2 members gain their account, but at the moment, it doesn't seem that persons who own both an NS and an NS2 account (and use the same country name) use a different Jolt account (evidenced by Spaam's and others' use of their respective NS1 accounts). I've already gotten an NS2 account - and at the moment, I have no intention to joining the NS2WC, however historic it may be; but I feel that if persons are going to be participating in either the NSWC or the NS2WC, they are going to have to choose which it is. And hence, membership in either NSWC regulatory body (WCC) or the NS2WC regulatory body (not yet named) are exclusive to each other. Of course, this is pending the decision to restrict members from NS1 and NS2 from the others' tournaments.



Personally, I don't see any reason for a NS2WC, if it is possible for members to post in the NS1 forums - and of course, the lone person who has stated that they are unable to post in the NS1 forums is a "new member" meaning that posts up to #10 are supervised heavily (especially if they possess links).

And a few notes -

Spaam, being a member of the EWCC (albeit a long and old member), has the right to make proposals; but as the Archregimancy is the WCC President, it is his responsibilty to convene the WCC and EWCC to vote upon such proposals. Hence, seeing as the Archregimancy has yet to put any proposals (aside from the CoH bid vote) on the floor at the moment, waiting for the two days is unnecessary and until the Archregimancy convenes the WCC or EWCC to hold any vote, no vote is being counted at the moment (besides the CoH Host bid).

And so, the WCC rules guru proves his mettle :p

**** This post is proof that NS1 members can post in NS2 ****

*returns to his exhausting rule collation duties...*

The naming is confusing maybe, but I don't see any reason why it's out of bounds to cross-advertise. That goes both ways; if Spaam wants to try and win converts here, I won't argue. As long as both games are maintained, I see them as alternate implementations of what is essentially the exact same thing run by the same people. People can obtain accounts under the same name and cross-post without any difficulty.

NS2 has more built-in, but it still needs forums to allow gameplay beyond the original scope, same as NS. And who's to say that said gameplay does not involve cross-dimensional interaction? There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Well time for my 2 cents worth, which is about what I'm about to say is worth (some of you will say, I know it.).

IMHO, NS and NS2 are TWO separate game identities, (ie: Madden 08 is different than Madden 09), and therefore the World Cup on each game should be separate identities. The NS2WC, should however, attempt to follow the majority of precidents created by the NSWC, if possible.

Since Spaam, who did have quite a long run in the NSWC and for the most part was a very active member and one held in good standing, has created the NS2WC, I think they should run it, in whatever way Spaam needs to run it to be successful in the NS2 game.

BUT I also agree that the NSWC should be able to advertise on the NS2 forums, and vice-versa.

Besides, If the NS2WC is successful, perhaps some NS2 nations will seek out the original one, and for those nations who will be mainly NS2 once the BETA vesion is a full version, then there would be no need to create an NS2WC, as there would be one already in place.

There's room enough for both to be run simulaneously, as neither one interferes with the other, excepting advertising for participation, in which some nations could participate in both.

Seeing as I've been saying it rather purposefully in #nssport, and now I've had a beer, I think I'll say it in here.

I call schism.

Something's just occurred to me - and I'll hope that, after half a bottle of Provencal rose, I'll be forgiven for raising this - but am I the only person who finds it vaguely paradoxical that Spaam sees fit to argue strenuously in favour of a strict separation between NS1 and NS2 while he continues to use a 2003-foundation NS1 account to post in NS2?

Now that I've had a think (over a glass of scotch - I turn into an alcy when my parents go away on holiday. A bad, bad thing is drinking at home on your own.), I believe I should explain my point further.

Spaam wants to create a WC for NS2. The WC we're currently in the second Discussion Thread for serves NS, and NS only (or primarily) at the present moment in time (primarily accounts for the advert in the NS2 forum). I believe this form of the WC tournament should carry on serving NS only, yes through the dwindling numbers, and dare I say almost heartbreak in watching the reason I play NationStates still die a slow, painful death.

A new version of our game is out folks, and unless we can persuade current NS members who don't like 2 to sign up to here, we will keep losing numbers and losing numbers before it comes to a point where it's unsustainable. Would I like to hand over the reigns of Bostopia or my puppet to - dare I say it - a possible child of mine (if we can land a man on the moon, surely there's someone out there mad enough to want kids with me?) at some point in the future, to see where they take the country and how they play out World Cups via RPs? Yes, of course I would, but dreams and fantasies are just that.

I believe that when the NS WC gets to levels where it's unsustainable, those of us who haven't either mass migrate to NS2 (keeping KPB ranks for the appropriate nations, as well as the next WC # to show that it is the true successor (possibly the wrong term) to the WC that serves this WC), or we let this WC die, along with the numberings, the ranks, but remember the memories of the Di Bradini's and the Belmore's and the Eggs, the ball-kicking RP of Casari, and (shameless plug) the "Jimmy do one, bruvs!" and ask Spaam nicely if we can join his incarnation of the WC, for NS2 for nations that want to.

In summary, I say let Spaam go his own way, with his own ranking system, own committees, laws, protocols, whatever he wants to do, and believe we should stop advertising in NS2. That is their game, this is ours, even if the difference is only a number.

(Apologies for rambling, like I said, alcohol.)

I hope you'll forgive as I'm the only person in the past few posts who has not yet drunk any alcohol before making a remark, but I maintain my fervent belief that the NS2WC is absolutely unnecessary if it is possible to have people from either entity post without anyone sensibly knowing about it. But as Bos said, it's their right to make their own tournament - whether it succeeds or fails depends on the merit of its project. That fact that this has lasted for at least 43 editions is a testament to its power - perhaps to its organizational integrity as well. I personally see the eventual merger of NS2WC and NSWC into one entity - and seeing as some people from NS2 are former NS1 members, it shouldn't be that long before you see something like this happening. Call me an optimist for thinking that...

And I quote from the rules:

"The WCC or EWCC must not intervene in running any other event."

The NS2WC is not the NSWC, the BoF, or the CoH. Ergo, the WCC/EWCC has no authority to do anything about them.

Saying NS2WC cannot exist is one thing - advertising in NS2 forums is another (which I realize has become the major pricking point for Spaam - and seeing as Spaam has been using a NS1 account, that would be a hypocritical pricking).

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got some catching up to do...

Dae, I'm NEVER drunk.

Dae, I'm NEVER drunk.

drunk, maybe not, but do you drink? :p

drunk, maybe not, but do you drink? :p

I drink enough to be on the verge of drunk.

Hah i beat you all. Ive never even sipped a drink. (waits to here everone yelling that im only 14 and shouldnt be drinking)

Hah i beat you all. Ive never even sipped a drink. (waits to here everone yelling that im only 14 and shouldnt be drinking)

What's this, you're not starting early? :eek: :p

Hah i beat you all. Ive never even sipped a drink. (waits to here everone yelling that im only 14 and shouldnt be drinking)

Ah, the folly of youth. It is wasted on the young.

Something's just occurred to me - and I'll hope that, after half a bottle of Provencal rose, I'll be forgiven for raising this - but am I the only person who finds it vaguely paradoxical that Spaam sees fit to argue strenuously in favour of a strict separation between NS1 and NS2 while he continues to use a 2003-foundation NS1 account to post in NS2?
Funnily enough this is the account it logs me into automatically from NS2. Who would've thunk it.

If you are not going to put my proposal forward immediately, then there is no point for it, and so should be ignored. It was merely an interim thing so we could sort this out properly instead of this escalating to a Ziotah-level war.

In the sense that my pricking his hypothetical, it would only be so if I had at any time advertised the NS2WC here, which I did not.

I honestly do no believe that there should be a complete separation between the two tournaments. Of course the majority of NS2 players are former NS1 players. The technologies running the tournaments are likely to be similar, if not identical. And personally, I think that, at least until, or if, this thing takes off, it should be run by the NS1 EWCC. I am still very loyal to the NS1WC, considering the amount of time and influence I have put into it. I don't play here merely because I have all but abandoned my NS1 nation, and only wish to play in NS2. But I am of the belief that because these are two separate games, there should be two separate tournaments. Requiring NS2 nations to play in a deprecated universe is totally unfair. In addition, this is the chance for us to make some changes which we cannot here due to the fact that this competition is so massive and ancient. This is one of the oldest forum-based games played on the entire internet. I don't want to be the only one making decisions in NS2WC.

My sticking point is that Arch has put the NS1WC in direct competition with the NS2WC. No discussion. No proposals. I have great respect for Arch, but it has been lessened because of the way he has handled this situation. And now there is conflict.

A lot of you are making me out to be an arrogant arsehole or whatever here. Go ahead. You all said the same back in WC21 when I came back to shake things up. And what happened? The modern WCC was born. My constitution was adopted. Say what you will, Bedistan et al, but this is an old game for me.

Every time you come back in here the only thing you do is try to shake things up in an arena you are no longer actively involved in. That's wrong. You want to get snarky, we'll get snarky. Get lost, Spaam.

Every time you come back in here the only thing you do is try to shake things up in an arena you are no longer actively involved in. That's wrong. You want to get snarky, we'll get snarky. Get lost, Spaam.
And yet, as a permanent WCC member, I still have as much say as you. Go figure.

My sticking point is that Arch has put the NS1WC in direct competition with the NS2WC. No discussion. No proposals. I have great respect for Arch, but it has been lessened because of the way he has handled this situation. And now there is conflict.


With respect, the conflict seems to be rather one-sided.

Most of us are having a calm and rational discussion about an important issue all of us realise needs to be addressed.

To the best of my knowledge - and everyone else should feel free to disabuse me - only one person has reacted with hostility and anger, and only one person is taking a position likely to exacerbate tension and conflict.

Your negative and hostile attitude is unfortunate, doubly so because it's unnecessary, but I continue to welcome any constructive contribution you may wish to make.