NationStates Jolt Archive

and 5,000th reply to my own thread!

Real Purpose of Post= Woohoo #5000!

IC Purpose of Post= I'm just glad we didn't drop after our qualifying misery!

WORST 1000TH Multiple post ever.

WORST 1000TH Multiple post ever.

I suppose it could be worse: "WHOA guys, including the old thread, this is the 16,145th post!!!!!!!11111negative(e-to-the-i-pi)"

At the risk of channeling...the spirit of someone I don't want to channel...I'm sure at least 1,000 of these have had legit purposes. :p

The old thread had 11,000 posts in over three-and-a-half years. This one reached 5,000 in less than a year. Not to get all nostalgic, but...how to put this diplomatically...Meh, can't do it. Thinking before you post could potentially maybe be a good idea from some of our perspectives? Possibly?
And on Dancougar's note above, very belated congratulations to the Blouman Empire on the combined 15,000th post. And shoutouts for Euler's theorem humor, which fills my heart with great joy.

And shoutouts for Euler's theorem humor, which fills my heart with great joy.

I concur with thine assessment, oh 'zug.

AHEM. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559522)

And on Dancougar's note above, very belated congratulations to the Blouman Empire on the combined 15,000th post. And shoutouts for Euler's theorem humor, which fills my heart with great joy.

*Raises head looks around when he hears his name*

Huh what?

*Checks posts*

Oh cool, yeah thanks Zwangzug.

On another note I moved up 8 spots from 56th to 48th.

*Lowers head*

I don't know if LE/Ad'ihan/Liventia/that dude who's my cohost has said this already, but in lieu of the recent "updates" to Jolt that has made connectivity rather sporadic and unpredictable (although it seems to be working fine tonight), the hosts would like to state that regardless of the condition in which Jolt appears to be operating, the Group Draw will be held on Friday. Ad'ihan will be doing the Group Draws at his time (I believe 1430GMT, but I'd need for him to confirm that) on the available media at that time, and if Jolt is not operational at that time, the results of the Draw will be posted ASAP on the Forum.

If the same said problem continued through the Group Draw and into the actual group stage matches, we will consider our options as hosts on the best manner to continue the competition. That said, I don't imagine that Jolt would intentionally love to %$#^ us all by doing it, so we're optimistic that things will go as planned. We'll have more details on the World Cup schedule after the Group Draw.

STAY TUNED FOR MORE INFORMATION.

PARA INSTRUCCIONES EN ESPAÑOL, PARE EL RESPIRAR POR FAVOR!

BTW, did I ever mention that Zwangzug sounds like a chess player eating pretzels and drinking coffee at some cafe in some city in Europe?

Please notice that there is other BoF bid around, not only FAIL's. It can be seen HERE (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559484).

And, if one is of two users behind one nation, the other is of one user behind two nations.

Just either an interesting sidenote or scorinator failure:

Not including the Hosts,

27 of the top 32 teams in the Post-qualifying rankings made it to the Cup.

including the hosts, 29 which is 90.625% of the TOP 32

And the World Cup, only only has 1 new team in it, Taeshan, as Kelssek (i believe they have, if not, welcome to the club!) and The Archregimancy each have been in the Cup before.

Just stating facts, so don't get mad at me.

Just either an interesting sidenote or scorinator failure:

Not including the Hosts,

27 of the top 32 teams in the Post-qualifying rankings made it to the Cup.

including the hosts, 29 which is 90.625% of the TOP 32

And the World Cup, only only has 1 new team in it, Taeshan, as Kelssek (i believe they have, if not, welcome to the club!) and The Archregimancy each have been in the Cup before.

Just stating facts, so don't get mad at me.

As far as I am aware, Kelssek has never been in the World Cup.

Post-qualifying rankings are also not a fair way to judge it, I feel, seeing how teams who've qualified are likely to get a good boost that could propel them into the top 32.

As far as I am aware, Kelssek has never been in the World Cup.

Post-qualifying rankings are also not a fair way to judge it, I feel, seeing how teams who've qualified are likely to get a good boost that could propel them into the top 32.

Yeah, cannot remember Kelssek make the finals ever. They always seem to make a mess of it but I guess this cup is different.

Arroza and Dancougar, as far as I'm aware I didn't receive any email to the hosts' account stating you guys wanted a friendly. However, I am willing to scorinate the friendly on Friday and post it at the same time as the finals group draw, if you wish.

Arroza and Dancougar, as far as I'm aware I didn't receive any email to the hosts' account stating you guys wanted a friendly. However, I am willing to scorinate the friendly on Friday and post it at the same time as the finals group draw, if you wish.

Yup, that's because we forgot to send one ^_^ It's okay, we can wait for next time around.

As far as I am aware, Kelssek has never been in the World Cup.

Post-qualifying rankings are also not a fair way to judge it, I feel, seeing how teams who've qualified are likely to get a good boost that could propel them into the top 32.

True using the post-qualifying ranks are not the best way judge, but I couldn't find the pre-qualifying ones. But I'm guessing that at least 25 of the TOP 32 before qualifying made the World Cup.

using the rankings listed on page 1 of the RP thread, 5 teams out of the 30 that qualified were not in the top 30.

West Starblaydia- 31
Kura-Pelland- 33
Archregimancy- 36
Taeshan- 44
Kelssek-48

i didn't realize West Star was that high.

Just either an interesting sidenote or scorinator failure:

Not including the Hosts,

27 of the top 32 teams in the Post-qualifying rankings made it to the Cup.

including the hosts, 29 which is 90.625% of the TOP 32

And the World Cup, only only has 1 new team in it, Taeshan, as Kelssek (i believe they have, if not, welcome to the club!) and The Archregimancy each have been in the Cup before.

Just stating facts, so don't get mad at me.

At this stage, merely an interesting sidenote and very much not scorinator failure.

As noted previously in the last couple of weeks, I do have concerns that the upper echelons are becoming fossilised again, but a single cup with only two brand new qualifiers and four qualifiers outside the top 32 (note slight correction to Glaycia's stat) is not a cause for concern in and of itself. Two or three consecutive cups with only two brand new qualifiers might be more worrying.

Again, we have to take the long view. Noting a lack of new teams in one cup is sensible enough, just so we can monitor a potential cause for concern; but given our reliance on random numbers, it isn't a problem as a one-off if there's a possibility that it might be balanced by a subsequent cup with five or six brand new entrants.

(this is Tynelia again, Glaycia seems to be the only account i have that i can log in as on the forum directly)

actually both are stats are accurate depending on what numbers you're looking at. it's 5 of the 30 that actually qualified directly via group play but also 4 of the 32 including the two hosts and the fact that 32 teams do qualify total. West Star is the annoyingly 31st rank team which is the only rank they could be in to alter the stats that way.

interesting question now is how many of the top 16 will actually make it to the knockouts. if a lot of the 17+ ranked crowd gets that far then that should mix up the top 10 moreso than having a few more 50+ ranked teams sneak in which would more likely affect the 25th-40th range teams rather than the higherups. though that would naturally put them in a better spot next Cup and be a newer face in a "favorite's" role to qualify.

And here is Vater Plukintchuk, with his daily quibble on randomness.

Results are random. Ranks tend to bias them to more highly ranked members, but regardless of the bias, the results remain random. The fact that those 4/5/PICK YOUR NUMBERS %$#^! teams outside the top 32/30/PICK YOUR NUMBERS %$#^! qualified is the result of random results that favored against the few teams that didn't qualify from the top 32/30/you get the story. I think that it's more curious to note that of those who participated in qualification, the top 24 all qualified; 4 of the top 32 did not (Candelaria And Marquez, Sorthern Northland, Yafalonia and Bazor 2, and Lovisa); and two teams beyond the top 32 teams qualified (these stats exclude the hosts, who of course did not qualify via qualification). I have these statistics (crude but simple) on my computer, so if anyone wants to verify them, I'll be glad to show the info.

But that point aside, it was a random result. It could have been more dynamic. KTT had a close call, with that loss to Vephrall; Vonks almost qualified on the first try; a lot of things could have happened, but they didn't. Maybe in WC42 Qualifications, we'll get a really random result where the top 30 teams in qualification all don't qualify; it's a random result in itself, and given the amount of bias on ranks, it's also unlikely. It's more likely that all top 30 teams in qualification actually qualify than it is for them to not qualify; bias affects the randomness, but it is all still random. That's particularly why scientists spend long hours in their research labs, because randomness basically makes repeated experiments necessary; if you get a certain result 50% of the time, you can't say for certain whether a certain result is guaranteed. But if you get a certain result for 99.9999% of the times, you're virtually treading on perfect results (there's always that random .0001% that doesn't work). But unlike experiments, we don't have 100,000 trials available to us to make due with WC41 (otherwise, we'd give out the cup to the winner who wins it most frequendly... and if I ever get the time, I'll run that experiment and tell you who would have won WC41 based on the bias on our randomness). Eh?

Like I said, I was just stating facts.

Yes it seems that these past qualifiers leaned towards the top 32 more than normal. Over the Cups i've been in the average is like 4 below rank 32 teams and 1 1/2 of them are NEW. (so this cup was average)

In response to Tynelia's post, if the top 16 do all make it to the 2nd round, then there could be a problem with stagnation in the top 10.

In a separate rant, Quakmybush has qualified for the last 3 World Cups, and have done rather well; without doing anything but signing-up for the Cup. Its taking a spot from a deserving team that does RP and it is not fair to the other competitors. It's almost like back in the WC 27-30 era again, where teams ranked over a certain rank don't even NEED to bother RPing anything, as they are assured of a World Cup berth almost automatically. Anyone have a suggestion as to how to solve this problem?

I know that sometimes nations can't RP due to RL issues, BUT 3 WORLD CUPS IN A ROW is pushing it a bit TOO FAR.

Like I said, I was just stating facts.

Yes it seems that these past qualifiers leaned towards the top 32 more than normal. Over the Cups i've been in the average is like 4 below rank 32 teams and 1 1/2 of them are NEW. (so this cup was average)

In response to Tynelia's post, if the top 16 do all make it to the 2nd round, then there could be a problem with stagnation in the top 10.

In a separate rant, Quakmybush has qualified for the last 3 World Cups, and have done rather well; without doing anything but signing-up for the Cup. Its taking a spot from a deserving team that does RP and it is not fair to the other competitors. It's almost like back in the WC 27-30 era again, where teams ranked over a certain rank don't even NEED to bother RPing anything, as they are assured of a World Cup berth almost automatically. Anyone have a suggestion as to how to solve this problem?

I know that sometimes nations can't RP due to RL issues, BUT 3 WORLD CUPS IN A ROW is pushing it a bit TOO FAR.

World Cup 30 (XXX), that was good cup for us! :D

The finals group draw will be held in #nssport on esper in approximately 35 minutes.

I know that I'm not a World Cup participant at the moment. I know that this doesn't directly respond to Qazox's point. And I know I've said this many times before.

The KPB multiplier for World Cup proper matches is too high. It is the major cause of fossilization.

It is not random (unlike the scorinators) and it is not a reward for good work (unlike RP bonus). It is bias, pure and simple, to ensure that top teams can stay top teams.

Often when nations are arguing for more randomness or more rewards for RPing what they are really trying to do is undo the bias from the KPB multiplier.

Errinundera was a major benefactor of this bias in WC38. I didn't post a roster and didn't RP a single match. Yet the Potoroos were undefeated in qualifying and the Cup proper (three draws in the first round led to our elimination). I recall that one of the hosts bitterly wished they could swap Errinundera's results with The Archregimancy's. I agree with that sentiment. Errinundera did well because it got a huge KPB boost from its previous two Cup proper campaigns.

The finals group draw will be held in #nssport on esper in approximately 35 minutes.

The draw is underway.

Oh great. Group of Death.

um just to point this out but shouldnt there be something stopping me from ending up with Jerusalem again

There is no reason for that Taeshan. Think of it like RL competitions. Qualifiers are completely different from the Cup Proper so anything can happen in the draw providing ranks don't matter.

Group C at Euros provides the truth of this as both the Netherlands and Romania were in the same qualifying and Italy and France were also both in the same qualifying group.

Also being drawn with the same team over and over again leads to rivalries. That's good, much more fun to RP a rivalry game.

Oh great. Group of Death.

Wentland, you are correct sir.

Groups by average rank:

Group A: 16.00
Group E: 16.25
Groups C, F, G, & H: 16.75
Group D: 18.50
Group B: 20.50

um just to point this out but shouldnt there be something stopping me from ending up with Jerusalem again

Tell that to the %$#^ WC organizers who drew ROK and DPRK in the same group yet again. *heaves a sigh of disappointment as Pyongyang is going to be bugging FIFA to move the venue from Seoul or somewhere else in Korea*

Wentland, you are correct sir.

Groups by average rank:

Group A: 16.00
Group E: 16.25
Groups C, F, G, & H: 16.75
Group D: 18.50
Group B: 20.50

argh, don't reinforce negative thoughts!

Wentland, you are correct sir.

Groups by average rank:

Group A: 16.00
Group E: 16.25
Groups C, F, G, & H: 16.75
Group D: 18.50
Group B: 20.50

You know, a group never is considered the "Group of Death" by everyone. In this case, for example, I disagree with Group A being the strongest one, as I really think that mine (Group F) is more difficult, having the top first and third seeds (while A has the top second and fourth ones). And, while some data can show A as the most difficult, other could show F as the most difficult one, see:

Groups by average KPB points - followed by which would be the ranking if the "Group Average KPB" was a NSWC NT:

Group F: 34.37 (10th)
Group B: 34.09 (11th)
Group E: 32.56 (14th)
Group H: 32.41 (15th)
Group G: 32.23 (17th)
Group A: 31.27 (18th)
Group C: 30.18 (19th)
Group D: 29.55 (19th)

In this case, Group F would be the "Group of Death", with a average KPB of a top 10 nation, while A would become one of the weakest ones.

This is not to try to "prove" that my group is the toughest, only to show that the concept of "Group of Death" is more a personal opinion than something concrete.

Either way I'm in the 4th toughest group ;)

um just to point this out but shouldnt there be something stopping me from ending up with Jerusalem again

In Euro 2008, Romania qualified ahead of the Dutch in their qualification group. But they got drawn together in the group stage of the finals of Euro 2008 - so this reflects reality. Anyway, Qazox and me used to get put in the same group in the past a lot.

You know, a group never is considered the "Group of Death" by everyone. In this case, for example, I disagree with Group A being the strongest one, as I really think that mine (Group F) is more difficult, having the top first and third seeds (while A has the top second and fourth ones).
I've always considered the Group of Death to be the one where you cannot easily pick the two qualifiers. With most of them you can pick at least one, but with A you have one of the low first seeds, the highest second seed, and the hosts - who have home advantage as well as being the highest fourth seed.

i like Caf's scenario better. gives me an easier group ;P

but yeah generally i go with Wentland's interpretation. a group where you can't easily tell who will be advancing and/or the group where the top seed have the best chance at not advancing.

in that case i consider my group C to be tougher than caf's system has it at because with me as the lowest #1 seed with the second (or first) highest #2 seed and one of the highest #3 seeds all in the same group there's a very good chance Tynelia doesn;t advance to the knockouts. may not be the "official" group of death but deadly enough for me.

um Caf i hate to saY THIS BUT ME AND YOU ARE PROBALLY GOING HOME AS WE WILL LIKELY GET CRUSHED BY THE jEWS AND THEOSE vALONORANS

SORRY BOUT DE CAPS

Yes Taeshan, because that's what usually happens when low ranking team (which in comparison to other qualifiers you are) get drawn with high ranking teams. Deal with it, it's just a game.

um Caf i hate to saY THIS BUT ME AND YOU ARE PROBALLY GOING HOME AS WE WILL LIKELY GET CRUSHED BY THE jEWS AND THEOSE vALONORANS

SORRY BOUT DE CAPS

Could be worse, you could have Milchama and Jeruselem in the group (two teams of Jewbees)!

Right, I'm back from my holiday (Hi, everybody!), am glad to have qualified and note that someone is taking the piss.

Group E
Casari (5)
Ad’ihan (12)
Starblaydia (21)
West Starblaydia (27)

Barring the host, this must be the geographically-closest group in WC History with two teams from bordering the same lake and Casari - who used to be just the other side of Starblaydia residing on a small island.

I know that I'm not a World Cup participant at the moment. I know that this doesn't directly respond to Qazox's point. And I know I've said this many times before.

The KPB multiplier for World Cup proper matches is too high. It is the major cause of fossilization.


And this after we've already lowered the qualification bonus for the WC so that the winner of the CoH should get a slightly higher boost than a team that loses every WC match.

I don't think there'll ever be a perfect solution to these issues that keeps everyone happy. But I strongly support continued monitoring of potential issues, and attempts by putative WC hosts to occasionally experiment around the margins in order to address those issues.

This is one of the reasons that I was so against the alternative bid for hosting the current world cup. When I raised my concerns over the extent to which style modifiers could be manipulated - something statistically proven in this thread by Legalese - I was essentially told that 'style modifiers are an accepted part of the cup now, so lump it.' Hardly a constructive reply to my raising a recognised problem. Dae and LE at least tried to address this one by severely restricting the style modifiers.

Changing the KPB ranking points is harder as it doesn't fall under the hosts' purview - but if someone thought it were a serious problem, they could propose a vote here, as was done with the qualifying bonus some cups back.


I recall that one of the hosts bitterly wished they could swap Errinundera's results with The Archregimancy's. I agree with that sentiment. Errinundera did well because it got a huge KPB boost from its previous two Cup proper campaigns.

Nothing to do with me, Erri. I miss you... You and Ariddia both.

I'd be quite happy with a sort of KPB stasis, so that world cup participation once in a while does not generate a bonus. Anything that helps in shaking things up a little. Certainly the last 4 in the CoH have arguably done better than the 1st round eliminateds in the world cup, on the basis that it might be shown that they had difficult groups...

Right, I'm back from my holiday (Hi, everybody!), am glad to have qualified and note that someone is taking the piss.

Group E
Casari (5)
Ad’ihan (12)
Starblaydia (21)
West Starblaydia (27)

Barring the host, this must be the geographically-closest group in WC History with two teams from bordering the same lake and Casari - who used to be just the other side of Starblaydia residing on a small island.

Like sticking China, North Korea and South Korea in a group :p

Like sticking China, North Korea and South Korea in a group :p

More like England, Scotland, and Ireland (ROI) in the same group.

HOST ANNOUNCEMENT

Jolt is having problems.

No, not a new thing, but if it continues to persist, we'll be forced to delay matches. I'm unilaterally delaying scores until 0430 GMT (0030 EDT) tonight (yes, TONIGHT), and if Jolt continues to have problems at around that time (which is usually when I find it in disarray), then I'll delay the scores until the morning (before Ad'ihan's post). Recognize that this is a one-time occurrence and that if Jolt does not %$#^ us, scores for Groups E-H will normally be stopped at 0230 GMT (2230EDT).

We will continue to update this as needed. We don't want to delay this any longer than what it needs to be delayed, but we also don't want to exclude any demographic of our RPing population from valuable RP credit, just because Jolt decided to fart on the system at their regularly scheduled time.

Thank you for your cooperation, and while Jolt is still operational, GET YOUR RPs DONE!

...When I raised my concerns over the extent to which style modifiers could be manipulated - something statistically proven in this thread by Legalese - I was essentially told that 'style modifiers are an accepted part of the cup now, so lump it.' Hardly a constructive reply to my raising a recognised problem.

(included just as much because I agree with the statement as this is a response to The Arch's post in general)

So, as I make my infrequent moment to observe and comment, I'd just like to point out that as per Proposal 1093 and its amendments (which currently sit here (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/world_cup_committee.html), but might be best saved in the case of changes/nswiki's total failure), there is no mention of the KPB ranks being required, so if someone wanted to modify how they were doing it, and stated such explicitly in the bid, they could very well do so. Or one could go ahead and legislate the structure of KPB ranks, which might be a slight overstretch.

And to go off of the style mod commentary: first, respect your elders :p, especially The Arch. Secondly, I echo his comments to the point to where I'd personally support a bid that did minimized or did away with them completely (provided I have confidence in the remainder of the bid's merits, mind you). Just because something has been done and is "accepted", doesn't make it right. Hell, we used to use dice, RPR, and leagion at some point, should we bring all those back because their use was previously "accepted"?

So, as I make my infrequent moment to observe and comment, I'd just like to point out that as per Proposal 1093 and its amendments (which currently sit here (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/world_cup_committee.html), but might be best saved in the case of changes/nswiki's total failure), there is no mention of the KPB ranks being required, so if someone wanted to modify how they were doing it, and stated such explicitly in the bid, they could very well do so.

I would suspect higher-ranking nations would not take to kindly to any such moves, heh.

Any Spanish folks here? :D
Congrats on Spain finally winning something a long while.

Qazox wholeheartedly endorses SPAIN as the winner of Euro08. Why not? if the dang Greeks and the Danes can win one, why not the Spanish?

Scratch what I said earlier, about Qazox. I'm the SPAIN of the NSWC.

WHO CALLED IT? huh? huh? I did. Peace out y'all.

WHO CALLED IT? huh? huh? I did. Peace out y'all.

Just for that, Qazox doesn't necessarily win WC41...

1 hour until the cutoff - make your last minute adjustments good and worthwhile to read :p

Just for that, Qazox doesn't necessarily win WC41...

But what about that truckload of Cristal and the boatload of hookers I sent you?

But what about that truckload of Cristal and the boatload of hookers I sent you?

Screw Cristal, we drinking Moet now.

But what about that truckload of Cristal and the boatload of hookers I sent you?

Tea Party!

Screw Cristal, we drinking Moet now.


eh?

HOST ANNOUNCEMENT

Jolt is having problems.

No, not a new thing...

Wow, I haven't been on Jolt for long, but it seems like these last few days have been particularly brutal. Has there ever been a World Cup marred by this much FAIL?!

Hey, wait a minute... *looks at Yafalonia and Bazor 2*

It all makes sense! The NationStates Inquisition has unexpectedly struck Britain and outdone them at their own game of creating false unexpected inquisitions! Out of all the unexpected things I could have not expected, this was the most unexpected...

The NationStates Inquisition has unexpectedly struck Britain and outdone them at their own game of creating false unexpected inquisitions! Out of all the unexpected things I could have not expected, this was the most unexpected...

But it was expected that it wouldn't be expected, except to those who expected it.

expectations are fleeting, gentlemen. now, it's off to the war rally!

*trots away on a pony*

Tea Party!




eh?

http://newsguru.newsvine.com/_news/2006/06/15/256160-jay-z-starts-boycott-against-cristal

RP CUTOFF!

http://www.sharkattackphotos.com/Shredded-arm-enlarged.jpg



Seriously, Daehan. I think you have a screw loose or you're just very morbid.

Must be those chemicals Dae drinks at work ...

Must be those chemicals Dae drinks at work ...

yum, electrolytes and sugar! (i.e. gatorade)

Seriously, Daehan. I think you have a screw loose or you're just very morbid.

tomorrow's edition will be family-friendly, promise!

yum, electrolytes and sugar! (i.e. gatorade)

You must be a high performance lab tech there!

Just because something has been done and is "accepted", doesn't make it right. Hell, we used to use dice, RPR, and leagion at some point, should we bring all those back because their use was previously "accepted"?

Quite.

10 out of 16 MD1 matches ended in draws. That must be some kind of first.

Anyhow. Daehan and I are currently discussing whether or not to extend the gap between group stage matches from 24 to 48 hours due to Jolt's recent tendency to just lose it at random points during the day for seemingly random lengths of time. If it craps out for 12 hours one of the days, which has happened before, RPs are going to be severely affected.

This is one of the reasons that I was so against the alternative bid for hosting the current world cup. When I raised my concerns over the extent to which style modifiers could be manipulated - something statistically proven in this thread by Legalese - I was essentially told that 'style modifiers are an accepted part of the cup now, so lump it.' Hardly a constructive reply to my raising a recognised problem. Dae and LE at least tried to address this one by severely restricting the style modifiers.

I don't know which part of this whole thing to quote, so I'm quoting a random paragraph of your post, while basically addressing your entire argument. ;)

I'd like to preface my statements with two notes; firstly, I think you know how much I respect, admire, and enjoy RP'ing with you. The point behind that being that all my statements are towards your points, and not towards you, as I think you know. Hopefully you don't hold a grudge for Praying2God! *ducks* Secondly, and far more importantly, I believe I have a fairly unique perspective on this whole issue, as I've not only been one of the few defensive teams in the NSWC for my entire career (also, by extension, the fact that I have been around for a fair bit of time), but I'm also the only real defensive team among the top echelon of teams in the NSWC.

Why does that matter? Well, according to the data discovered, I should probably be the one complaining the most. Well, as it is, I've been one of the major proponents of style modifiers for a quite a bit of time.

For me, style modifiers provide that dose of realism in scores - the one area where the player has no control. I can make a massive RP and still draw/lose (*coughLEcough*). More importantly, however, the player has no real control over the number of goals scored and allowed. That's where style modifiers come in - they allow the player to decide whether his team will try to score four goals a game or one, whether his team will continuously attack or decide to lay down and defend a bit. That's the point of style modifiers and that's the real reason that I've been a heavy advocate for them.

I know that it's in my best interest to go attacking. I know that I'm at a disadvantage when I decide to make my bonus a -1 instead of a +3. The point here is the fact that I don't care. I'd much rather lose 2-1 than win 6-0 - purely because it fits with my RP storyline. It makes as much sense for me to win 6-0 than it does to lose 0-6 (in the case of the former, actually, it REALLY makes no sense, because no Yaforite would want to run up the score on an opponent just to embarrass them). In my case, basically, I'd much rather lose realistically (as, according to the data, is what occurs now) than win unrealistically (which has begun to happen).

That big a change isn't far-fetched, actually. This WC, the one with reduced style bonuses (I voted against it for that reason, btw), I recently won 6-0, my largest margin ever. I tried to fraud my way through it, but it really makes no sense in terms of Yafor 2.

We're on separate sides of the fence on the issue, Arch'. I'll just keep voting for the bids that support style modifiers and you just keep voting for the bids that don't. I just felt I should through in my own $0.02, since I do believe my own position in this regard is rather unique.

Style modifiers were basically introduced partly as a TnUI way of making the U21WC a little more fun - he was always attempting to figure out which one was ending up as the 'best' in each iteration - as well as seeping into the WC in order to have teams like Rejistania getting realistic scorelines for their Karela.

Rejis winning 6-0 or 5-2 or something would simply never have happened as that's not the way Karela works - much like Yaf said, there's only so many times you can justify a massive scoreline/winning-margin when playing Karela. To a lesser extent it allows teams like Bettia and other 'AOA' nations to rack up the goals - or be blown out of the water - when they can, but they can still be held to 0-0 and 1-0 like the Karelans are aiming for.

The modifiers themselves, unless programmed perfectly, can be open to exploitation when users extrapolate results and find the secrets behind the formula to match their rank with the 'best' style. I think the problem behind this is that there are so few programmers with the requisite skill amongst our hardly band of sports-freaks and creative-writers that it's damn difficult to get such a scorinator.

The introduction of Style modifiers lent a little more 'realism' to match the RPing that was coming out of the more extreme AOA and AOD nations, and if nothing else it allows you to look at a national squad and figure out how they'd play against you. Starblaydia's 4-4-2 'Diamond' (a 4-1-2-1-2) could realistically work out in a match as a 5-4-1 or a 2-3-5, depending on what modifier I was using for them in a +5 to -5 range.

What we need is some code monkeys to figure out style modifiers that can't be exploited and just spit out results that are perfectly balanced with RP, Rank and Randomness given the twist of the modifier. Then the sky will fall, the HURD will be ready, pigs will fly and Qazox will win a WC.

Improbable, but possible?

I'd like to preface my statements with two notes; firstly, I think you know how much I respect, admire, and enjoy RP'ing with you. The point behind that being that all my statements are towards your points, and not towards you, as I think you know.

Oh, don't worry about that, Yaf. Unlike some people on NS, I'm quite happy to have someone disagree with me, and still respect them in the morning ;) Your point is politely made and well argued, even while I continue to disagree with you. I understand why you like style mods, and why you'd support them. And as a defensive high-ranked team, you're not really a part of the stastical problem.

The problem isn't with style mods per se, but with style mods as currently conceived. Star's point in the next post is an excellent one.


The modifiers themselves, unless programmed perfectly, can be open to exploitation when users extrapolate results and find the secrets behind the formula to match their rank with the 'best' style. I think the problem behind this is that there are so few programmers with the requisite skill amongst our hardly band of sports-freaks and creative-writers that it's damn difficult to get such a scorinator.


And that's what I object to. Not the concept behind the modifiers, but that as currently applied within NSFS, they're open to exploitation, especially by high-ranked teams choosing to use as aggressive a modifier as possible.

If someone can design a scorinator that addresses this issue, then I'd happily support it, but while we continue to (usually) work with a scorinator that essentially rewards high-ranked teams that choose to play with a +5 style mod - whatever their motivations - I can't.

The problem isn't with style mods per se, but with style mods as currently conceived. Star's point in the next post is an excellent one.

And that's what I object to. Not the concept behind the modifiers, but that as currently applied within NSFS, they're open to exploitation, especially by high-ranked teams choosing to use as aggressive a modifier as possible.

If someone can design a scorinator that addresses this issue, then I'd happily support it, but while we continue to (usually) work with a scorinator that essentially rewards high-ranked teams that choose to play with a +5 style mod - whatever their motivations - I can't.

I personally can understand your point completely and, more importantly, understand why you follow it. In my opinion, as you know, I'd prefer to have the realism aspect - in your, you feel that the exploitation outweighs that aspect. In both of our cases, we have reasoning behind our decisions and we both, more importantly, understand the other side. As of now, of course, I can understand where you are coming from and I know that neither of us are going to really change our views, so we might as well agree to disagree. ;) Of course, I'm totally fine with disagreeing with someone I respect for a reason I understand and, hey, I can disagree with someone and be fine after lunch, too (being that the morning example doesn't work, as it is currently morning :p ).

I think that Star's post was an excellent summary of the situation as a whole - as well as my situation, as a defensively minded team, as well as why I believe what I do. Was there a formula as you suggested, then we could both support it. So, I guess we'll express our opinions through the democratic system of voting, no? :)

....
What we need is some code monkeys to figure out style modifiers that can't be exploited and just spit out results that are perfectly balanced with RP, Rank and Randomness given the twist of the modifier. Then the sky will fall, the HURD will be ready, pigs will fly and Qazox will win a WC.

Improbable, but possible?


Well the last one of that list is the most likely to happen.

Given my track record I really should go very far away from any attempt to build a better scorinator, but my two cents for the braver souls: NSFS uses an attack-based system. Offensive styles increase the number of attacks (goalscoring opportunities)-since it's more likely for the better team to score, this helps them. Each team's score is the number of attacks on which they score.

What seems a more intuitive way to do it would be to randomly generate one number, modified for rank as appropriate, for each team's score. How, then, could style modifiers impact this? The simplest way seems to be multiplying that number by some function of the style modifiers, so 1+n*(sum of the two teams' modifiers) or something. This would have to be rounded to get a final score, of course, but if someone was scorinating as per the first sentence they'd have to anyway.

The WC36/39 scorinator, which also uses an attack-based system, doesn't work quite the same way: instead, the sum of the teams' modifiers is used to change the probability of scoring on any given attack.

Does this make a difference? The simple answer: I don't know! To a certain extent it feels like the "attack helps high seeds, defense helps low seeds" mentality would show up almost regardless of the scorinator, but is this just fuzzy guesswork? Think of tossing coins. If you toss only a few, you'll get all heads or all tails much less frequently than you do if you toss a lot. This is the NSFS problem: when there are few scoring chances (few coins), upsets (improbable results, like all of the same kind) will be much more likely than when you increase the sample size. Style modifiers work if they affect both teams equally. But in a more offensive game, when there are more chances for goals to be scored, the higher seeds' likeliness to outscore the lower seeds seems to be magnified-which implies that style mods would never really work without being hacked. But that's just fuzzy guesswork, like I said. Is there any way to quantify this or state it a little more firmly regardless of what scorinator is being used?

Okay, I think that was more than two cents, so I'll put the coins down and stop flipping. ;)

One final note on NSFS-I think the reason it, and its associated problems, has been used so frequently is because it's so fast-much deserved credit for automatic table generation! As the recent dearth of bids has implied, a lot of us don't have the time to dedicate to hosting, so unfortunate consequences like the modifier problem are the price we pay for efficiency.

The WC36/39 scorinator, which also uses an attack-based system, doesn't work quite the same way: instead, the sum of the teams' modifiers is used to change the probability of scoring on any given attack.

Does this make a difference? The simple answer: I don't know!
It does have the same problem; in this scorinator, a zero-rank team has a 4.7% chance of beating a team with max KPB when neither team has a style modifier, and only a 2.0% chance when both teams have a +5 style. (Interestingly, it appears that a moderate negative style may be optimal for low-ranked teams in this scorinator rather than −5.)

What seems a more intuitive way to do it would be to randomly generate one number, modified for rank as appropriate, for each team's score.
Hey, stop hacking into my computer :p
That’s exactly how my Olympic scorinator works (except that it generates a number between 0 and 1 based on rank/RP/random number and then transforms it into a result for the appropriate sport based on the set parameters—which, of course, means a number between 0 and 31 for international football :p).

How, then, could style modifiers impact this? The simplest way seems to be multiplying that number by some function of the style modifiers, so 1+n*(sum of the two teams' modifiers) or something. This would have to be rounded to get a final score, of course, but if someone was scorinating as per the first sentence they'd have to anyway.
Close; using a multiplier will still give a benefit to the higher-ranked team with positive modifiers and to the lower-ranked team with negative modifiers, since a positive modifier can turn a draw—with one team fractionally ahead of the other—into a win, and a negative modifier can do the opposite. A better solution is to add or subtract an integer number of goals (which should be randomly generated based on the styles, rather than using a simple formula that would guarantee that +5 teams score at least x goals in each game) from both teams’ scores, making sure that the scores stay above zero. Thus, the win/draw/loss and the margin of victory are decided purely by the rank/RP/random numbers, rather than the style modifiers.

I have already implemented such a style modifier system, and will be using it in a hosting bid (coming soon to a thread near you!).

HOST ANNOUNCEMENT

On account of Jolt being so finicky, we've decided that all Group Stage matches will have an RP period on 48 hours!

That means you have another 24 hours (Groups E-H)/ 36 hours (Groups A-D) to get your RPs in. This also will account for any problems that are not Jolt-related directly. Since the RP period has been extended, we won't be likely extending the RP period beyond what is necessary to accommodate all teams involved, but that again is subject to the circumstances. At the moment, RP cutoffs are 0230 GMT (2:30am UTC) for Groups E-H and 1430 GMT (2:30pm UTC) for Groups A-D.

Any questions about RP cutoff policies should also be directed to nswc.hosts@gmail.com, since the hosts might not have enough capacity in their respective nation's TG inbox to read everything - and for good measure, we check the email every day.

OFFICIAL PRESIDENTIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS


Cup of Harmony hosting bid voting has concluded.
The bid from Newmanistan and Zwangzug (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=557848) has been approved by a vote of 2 to 0. (Gee, talk about a wasted week, huh?)
Baptism of Fire hosting bids will be accepted through the end of the quarterfinals of World Cup 41.
World Cup 42 hosting bids will be accepted through the end of World Cup 41 or 10 July, whichever is later.


Thank you.

FYI - the Match final according to the new and improved World Cup schedule (courtesy of Ad'ihan Time Corporate Services), the Final match is 13 July.

WTG Zwangzug and Newmanistan, I hope it is a successful one.

Thanks for your support, to the two people who voted! At least no one voted against us, we'll look at it that way!

I am confident that Zwangzug and I will run a successful tournament. Much more information will follow in the very near future. To everyone that is Cup of Harmony bound, Newmanistan & Zwangzug hope to make your stay a most pleasant one.

A vote? Aw crap, missed it.

Cup of Harmony hosting bid voting has concluded.
The bid from Newmanistan and Zwangzug (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=557848) has been approved by a vote of 2 to 0. (Gee, talk about a wasted week, huh?)

I don't know about other EWCC members, but I'm not 100% comfortable with this trend towards WCC-specific gmail accounts - whether presidential or host-associated - and the expectation that we'll use those as contact points.

I can see the advantage (they can transfer when the president or hosts change), but I'd personally rather stick to NS TGs for NS business.

That's why I didn't vote, whereas I would have voted if I'd been able to TG.

I know, I know, I'm increasingly the grumpiest of old farts. Next I'll be expecting us to run World Cup 42 via telegraph and morse code. Or maybe semaphore and fire beacons.

TG = 15 messages max.

Our TG inboxes would overflow if we didn't find some other method. Furthermore, there may be important TGs we wish to keep in our inboxes for future reference. The mail account that the hosts set up also allows us to transfer scorination and RP bonus files between ourselves more easily. It also makes it more likely that we won't miss any friendly request (or for the president, vote) that happens to get lost in any overflow.

If you don't like it, well, there's not much that can be said for that I suppose. Not sure why you brought up the EWCC, considering it's a WCC-wide thing in both presidential and host account cases. Would you like a vote on that? ;) (It would, ironically, be conducted via email.)

It makes sense for hosts, I understand. For votes, it seems like an even better idea given the TG limit (which is 20 now), but it seems a little susceptible, especially when it comes to EWCC matters-you can't be as sure people are who they say they are as you can with telegrams.

Anyhow. On behalf of Newmanistan, thanks to both voters, ;) and we look forward to a great tournament!

I think we can avoid the security crisis by a simple matter of "forcing" countries to use a generic email account and using their country name as the name of the account.

for example: daehanjeiguk@blahblah.com

It's simple and reduces the security issues associated with random people doing random things. Of course, the real alternative is to get NS TG limits removed, but then we'd have a crisis of overloading the servers with junk mail.

(and yes, I'm online at this time - don't think it's a habit though, I'm just back for lunch :D)

And GRATZ to the CoH hosts :)

going back to the modifiers i have another question/comment. we've been all running numbers with the -5/+5 modifiers in effect of late but i remember back in the middle ages when Tynelia first started (as opposed to the dawn of time for AIF) almost every cup for the first few limited things to a -3/+3 modifier only recently (half dozen cups or so?) i think it started consistantly going -5/+5 until this one.

so the question is, does a -3/+3 range keep things more even at the extremes than the -5/+5 does for all sorts of teams. maybe its just a case of things working ok until the modifier numbers get too large and things begin to spiral out of control?

this way teams can play more of the style they prefer without being punished for it by the number generators if its the case.

going back to the modifiers i have another question/comment. we've been all running numbers with the -5/+5 modifiers in effect of late but i remember back in the middle ages when Tynelia first started (as opposed to the dawn of time for AIF) almost every cup for the first few limited things to a -3/+3 modifier only recently (half dozen cups or so?) i think it started consistantly going -5/+5 until this one.

so the question is, does a -3/+3 range keep things more even at the extremes than the -5/+5 does for all sorts of teams. maybe its just a case of things working ok until the modifier numbers get too large and things begin to spiral out of control?

this way teams can play more of the style they prefer without being punished for it by the number generators if its the case.
The ±3 or ±5 range is simply a matter of what the scorinator is designed for—one could make a scorinator that has a ±3 style range, but with the +3 style having an even greater effect than the +5 in NSFS. Using ±3 styles with a scorinator that’s designed for ±5 does reduce the negative side effects of style modifiers, just like using ±1 in this Cup has, but the effects are still there.

If you don't like it, well, there's not much that can be said for that I suppose. Not sure why you brought up the EWCC, considering it's a WCC-wide thing in both presidential and host account cases. Would you like a vote on that? ;) (It would, ironically, be conducted via email.)

Because I'm older than most of you and I confuse easily. Why, I'm practically the John McCain of the NSWC.

I think I meant to reference the fact that the latest vote for CoH host had a more restricted franchise than general votes for WCC and President, but now I can't even remember if it's the CoH or BoF that has a more restricted franchise. My mind's going, I tell you.

I think I'd better pour myself a nice cup of tea and go and lie down for a bit. Us old (by NSWC standards) codgers sometimes need humouring.

See, that's another reason I miss Errinundera - he's older than me in RL. I wonder if that makes him (following the US political analogy) the Robert Byrd of the NSWC. Given where Erri's based, and his political preferences, maybe he'd prefer to be compared to Gough Whitlam.

I don't know about other EWCC members, but I'm not 100% comfortable with this trend towards WCC-specific gmail accounts - whether presidential or host-associated - and the expectation that we'll use those as contact points.

I can see the advantage (they can transfer when the president or hosts change), but I'd personally rather stick to NS TGs for NS business.

That's why I didn't vote, whereas I would have voted if I'd been able to TG.

I know, I know, I'm increasingly the grumpiest of old farts. Next I'll be expecting us to run World Cup 42 via telegraph and morse code. Or maybe semaphore and fire beacons.

Well, one of my main reasons for doing so was exactly what LE pointed out. I knew that I was going to be away for a significant (over 48 hours) period of time during the vote, which carried with it a potential risk of telegram inbox overflow. Indeed, that very thing did happen during the WC41 host vote, resulting in about 16 hours' worth of votes being lost (I made a note of this on here; how many of those ended up being resubmitted as opposed to being gone forever, nobody really has any way of knowing for sure). I really don't like the idea of people's votes not getting counted. So that really is my primary reason for (admittedly unilaterally and very at-the-last-minute) making that change.

In retrospect, CoH/BoF host votes (particularly those with only one bid) really don't have high enough turnout to make these measures necessary. World Cup hosting votes, on the other hand, certainly make it desirable from the vote collector's end, as was proven last cup.

I'd like to hear more feedback from you guys here - do I have the right idea, or should we stick to the old method? (Also note: future WCC presidents are by no means obligated to use this system.)

I actually agree with Arch on this one.

The gmail thing is annoying because I might go quickly to NS and TG somebody but I won't go to an email and do the same thing. Also I think that TGs and IRC have gotten the job done well enough for long enough that it shouldn't matter.

I actually think the friendly email thing is good though because then the hosts don't need to go tramping around the discussion thread and everywhere else to figure out friendlies which is hard and superfluous.

Man, Group F - Group of Death? Not quite, Group E!

if they all end in a draw on MD3, I will kill someone with a piece of chalk

if they all end in a draw on MD3, I will kill someone with a piece of chalk

You only have to really worry if they all score the same number of goals. As of right now, that isn't an issue.

Though to be pedantic, they're not currently separated on GD (goal difference) - as stated in the table - but on GS (goals scored).

Those of you with memories as long as mine will remember eventual champions Italy narrowly eliminating Cameroon on the same goals scored principle in the 1982 World Cup. Would never have predicted that famous 3-2 victory over Brazil in the second round at that point, let me tell you.

Those of you with memories as long as mine will remember eventual champions Italy narrowly eliminating Cameroon on the same goals scored principle in the 1982 World Cup.

Only if it's my earliest memory as a three-month old, perhaps!

Though, quite happily, if means Starblaydia (or Ad'ihan, of course) will go through with a draw, unless the other match is a much higher-scoring draw, which is a fairly unlikely situation... (he says having had two matchdays in Group E with two draws each)

so we could have our second every all 4 teams in the group all tied up scenario like the one where #1 Az-cz got knocked out via whatever the last tiebreaker was a couple cups back.

so we could have our second every all 4 teams in the group all tied up scenario like the one where #1 Az-cz got knocked out via whatever the last tiebreaker was a couple cups back.

I was in that one, too, everyone had a 1-1-1 record with identical GF-GA... That one was drawing of straws, and Starblaydia topped the group!

Starblaydia- the hosts' nightmare WC group team.

RAWRCOMPLICATE :p

SLANI–Jasīʼyūn–Universitus Megabid (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559872) for BoF29, WC42, CoH34, and more!

I am hesitant to support a bid that lets Jey host the WC and bypass qualification at their very low rank outside the top 100. For the record, at the time of Ad’ihan's World Cup 37 bid, we were ranked 71st, not 108th as Jey is.

I am also opposed to the idea of introducing something that does not exist in real-life football to such a big game as the World Cup final. I quote from the bid thread as follows:

"If the final ends in a draw after extra time, a replay will be held. If the replay is also a draw after ninety minutes, then a series of eight-minute golden-goal extra time periods will be held, with each team taking two players off the pitch at the end of each period (so that a goal becomes more likely as extra time progresses)."

This is no longer association football. Introducing a replay instead of penalties I'm not against. The latter part of that, however, is overboard.

There is absolutely zero chance this bid will win my support if that is what will be done. If the bid wins, I would like the EWCC to approve, in a supermajority, what the bidders intend to do to the final.

I have to agree with LE here, such a change to football, especially in the games biggest event, the World Cup, is pretty silly.

Yeah, I know nobody likes penalties (well, I do), but I think the SLANI/Jey proposal is complete overkill.

However, whereas LE agrees with a replay, I don't. Personally, I like how it's done currently.

If it's not borked, dun' fix it.

Speaking of TG's. Arch, I sent you one :)

There is absolutely zero chance this bid will win my support if that is what will be done. If the bid wins, I would like the EWCC to approve, in a supermajority, what the bidders intend to do to the final.


Leaving aside your other points, with respect, you're placing yourself here in the difficult position of potentially trying to overturn a winning bid that, while no doubt unpalatable to some, is entirely within the rules as written, with a procedure (a supermajority vote of the EWCC) that's - as far as I can tell - entirely outside the rules.

If you really felt that strongly about it, you'd certainly be within your rights to call an EWCC vote - though that would be a highly drastic step. But insisting that any such vote should be a supermajority? I'm really not sure any of us are in a position to insist on that.

Those of you with memories as long as mine will remember eventual champions Italy narrowly eliminating Cameroon on the same goals scored principle in the 1982 World Cup. Would never have predicted that famous 3-2 victory over Brazil in the second round at that point, let me tell you.
And had Cameroon not had a goal wrongly disallowed in one of their group matches Italy would have been out.

"If the final ends in a draw after extra time, a replay will be held. If the replay is also a draw after ninety minutes, then a series of eight-minute golden-goal extra time periods will be held, with each team taking two players off the pitch at the end of each period (so that a goal becomes more likely as extra time progresses)."

This is no longer association football. Introducing a replay instead of penalties I'm not against. The latter part of that, however, is overboard.

I respectfully disagree and claim that this is both more dramatic and exciting than a penalty kick shootout can ever be.

Is the megabid going to get three automatic spots in the World Cup then? SLANI, Jasi-yun, and Universitus?

SLANI would obviously be in, and I don't object to the spot for UU should they co-host. But Jasi-yun, too? Jasi-yun, while in the top 32, is not really in an automatic spot to assume they'd qualify. This then leaves nations in my predictament, a "bubble nation" fighting for 29 spots, and not 30. That's not really in the best interest of those ranked in the 33-50 range. Qualifying is hard enough, taking away one of our spots, makes it much harder. Please consider the interests of the nations in my ranking range when voting. Unless just SLANI and UU are automatic, then this doesn't apply.

Is the megabid going to get three automatic spots in the World Cup then? SLANI, Jasi-yun, and Universitus?

SLANI would obviously be in, and I don't object to the spot for UU should they co-host. But Jasi-yun, too? Jasi-yun, while in the top 32, is not really in an automatic spot to assume they'd qualify. This then leaves nations in my predictament, a "bubble nation" fighting for 29 spots, and not 30. That's not really in the best interest of those ranked in the 33-50 range. Qualifying is hard enough, taking away one of our spots, makes it much harder. Please consider the interests of the nations in my ranking range when voting. Unless just SLANI and UU are automatic, then this doesn't apply.
As explained in the bid, a playoff would be played between SLANI and Jasīʼyūn for one of the two auto-qualifying spots; the loser of the playoff would participate in qualifying.

As explained in the bid, a playoff would be played between SLANI and Jasīʼyūn for one of the two auto-qualifying spots; the loser of the playoff would participate in qualifying.

I missed that part then (and I did try to look for it first!). Sorry!

I respectfully disagree and claim that this is both more dramatic and exciting than a penalty kick shootout can ever be.

It is not in FIFA's laws of the game. It is not association football and such should not be done for an association football tournament.

Law 10 — The method of scoring
Competition Rules
When competition rules require there to be a winning team after
a match or home-and-away tie, the only permitted procedures for
determining the winning team are those approved by the International
F.A. Board, namely:
• away goals rule
• extra time
• kicks from the penalty mark

It is not in FIFA's laws of the game. It is not association football and such should not be done for an association football tournament.

With respect, your opposition to the idea has been noted. Please stop now.

Poor Han! Bounced out their own cup.

Leaving aside your other points, with respect, you're placing yourself here in the difficult position of potentially trying to overturn a winning bid that, while no doubt unpalatable to some, is entirely within the rules as written, with a procedure (a supermajority vote of the EWCC) that's - as far as I can tell - entirely outside the rules.

If you really felt that strongly about it, you'd certainly be within your rights to call an EWCC vote - though that would be a highly drastic step. But insisting that any such vote should be a supermajority? I'm really not sure any of us are in a position to insist on that.

I actually sort of agree with this. You vote for a bid because of what it proposes to do - to "divide the question" (in essence) removes some of the legitimacy of the hosts. The alternative to allowing the hosts to continue with something you disagree is to make a counterbid (supposing that you haven't hosted the WC in the last 2/3 cups).

I respectfully disagree and claim that this is both more dramatic and exciting than a penalty kick shootout can ever be.

Penalty kicks are more dramatic than matches. They're also very dramatic and arbitarily award wins to teams that have the better PK finishers (but not necessarily the team that played the best on the pitch). In general, a replay match allows the better fit team to win, whereas PKs are more driven by luck.

It is not in FIFA's laws of the game. It is not association football and such should not be done for an association football tournament.

Law 10 — The method of scoring
Competition Rules
When competition rules require there to be a winning team after
a match or home-and-away tie, the only permitted procedures for
determining the winning team are those approved by the International
F.A. Board, namely:
• away goals rule
• extra time
• kicks from the penalty mark

To go off a limb that the Arch would probably pursue, penalty shootouts are a legacy of the late 1960's (incidentally because some teams disapproved of the use of lots to break ties in elimination stage matches, where a replay was not possible). Replays were used in World Cup matches up until World Cup 1978, when the official rules were changed. And while FIFA might have those rules concerning the nature of breaking a draw, to my apparent knowledge, there are no current rules in the WCC dictating the terms of how to break ties (which has been traditionally reserved to the hosts).

Poor Han! Bounced out their own cup.

Stop reinforcing negative thoughts!

*vaguely remembers saying this before the start of the World Cup)

To go off a limb that the Arch would probably pursue, penalty shootouts are a legacy of the late 1960's (incidentally because some teams disapproved of the use of lots to break ties in elimination stage matches, where a replay was not possible). Replays were used in World Cup matches up until World Cup 1978, when the official rules were changed. And while FIFA might have those rules concerning the nature of breaking a draw, to my apparent knowledge, there are no current rules in the WCC dictating the terms of how to break ties (which has been traditionally reserved to the hosts).

Breaking ties in a round-robin ≠ breaking a match tie. Also, clarification of the FIFA statute: the three possibilities FIFA allows for are only when a match winner is required. Therefore a replay isn't illegal — that would just be saying that a draw is an accepted result.

Breaking ties in a round-robin ≠ breaking a match tie.

Quarterfinals World Cup 1934

Italy played Spain to a 1-1 draw. On the following day, the Italians won the replay, 1-0.

World Cup 1938

Of the 5 matches that went into overtime, 2 were resolved by replay matches (Switzerland beat Germany, Cuba beat Romania); in the quarterfinals, Brazil beat Czechoslovakia in a replay after they drew 1-1.

To my knowledge, it was the last World Cup that needed replay matches before the advent of PK shootouts.

More famously, EURO 1968 - Italy beat the Soviet Union in the semfinals on a coin toss (the match ended in a 0-0 draw); they went on to beat Yugoslavia in a replay match (2-0), after the two sides battled to a 1-1 draw.

It's been done before. I'm not saying that I approve of it, but to claim that it's not in the rule book is hiding the history of the sport.

We're... also NOT FIFA...

Quarterfinals World Cup 1934

More famously, EURO 1968 - Italy beat the Soviet Union in the semfinals on a coin toss (the match ended in a 0-0 draw); they went on to beat Yugoslavia in a replay match (2-0), after the two sides battled to a 1-1 draw.


That must be the worse way to lose, at least with PK you have some control over your own destiny.

Is this, coming up, possibly the craziest BoF host bid ever? (Not that there's anything wrong with crazy.)

As Caf said recently, we have two users behind one nation. We have one user behind two nations. We have two users behind three associations from two nations. And we have one user behind one nation as soon as he's no longer the second user behind an nth of a nation.

Sort of glad I'm not on the EWCC. :p

We're... also NOT FIFA...

And while FIFA might have those rules concerning the nature of breaking a draw, to my apparent knowledge, there are no current rules in the WCC dictating the terms of how to break ties (which has been traditionally reserved to the hosts).

That must be the worse way to lose, at least with PK you have some control over your own destiny.

The Soviet captain called the flip and lost :D

You only have to really worry if they all score the same number of goals. As of right now, that isn't an issue.

Though to be pedantic, they're not currently separated on GD (goal difference) - as stated in the table - but on GS (goals scored).

Those of you with memories as long as mine will remember eventual champions Italy narrowly eliminating Cameroon on the same goals scored principle in the 1982 World Cup. Would never have predicted that famous 3-2 victory over Brazil in the second round at that point, let me tell you.

I was around for that one, but my 1st RL WORLD CUP memory was the "Hand of God" goal in 1986. <let the arguement commence!>

As for the BoF debate... what ever happened to the good ol' days where one team hosted it, with the BoF being usually it's first attempt at hosting with an established host watching?

The Soviet captain called the flip and lost :D

LOL, must have left the double-head or tailed coin at home!

We're... also NOT FIFA...

We are not FIFA but FIFA maintains the laws of association football as we know it, as defined by the IFAB. Any modification made which is not allowed in FIFA's/IFAB's laws would mean the game played is no longer association football.

Quarterfinals World Cup 1934

Italy played Spain to a 1-1 draw. On the following day, the Italians won the replay, 1-0.

World Cup 1938

Of the 5 matches that went into overtime, 2 were resolved by replay matches (Switzerland beat Germany, Cuba beat Romania); in the quarterfinals, Brazil beat Czechoslovakia in a replay after they drew 1-1.

To my knowledge, it was the last World Cup that needed replay matches before the advent of PK shootouts.

More famously, EURO 1968 - Italy beat the Soviet Union in the semfinals on a coin toss (the match ended in a 0-0 draw); they went on to beat Yugoslavia in a replay match (2-0), after the two sides battled to a 1-1 draw.

It's been done before. I'm not saying that I approve of it, but to claim that it's not in the rule book is hiding the history of the sport.

You totally missed my point; I have nothing against replays.

My point that resolving round-robin ties were not the same as resolving match draws referred to your sentence saying we have traditionally let the hosts determine tiebreaking criteria. We have indeed let them determine tiebreaking criteria, but only to separate teams in a group situation.

Furthermore, if the competition rules mandated replays, then the match would not have been one in which a winner was needed, and thus not bound by the away goals/extra time/penalties rule. The key term in the statute is "where rules require there to be a winning team after a match".

Rules change over time but as they are now, it would not allow what the hosts plan to do to a tied replay.

I was around for that one, but my 1st RL WORLD CUP memory was the "Hand of God" goal in 1986. <let the arguement commence!>

As for the BoF debate... what ever happened to the good ol' days where one team hosted it, with the BoF being usually it's first attempt at hosting with an established host watching?

Actually from what I've gleaned the BoF is traditionally a 2 man hosting job. 1 an experienced host and one new person to hosting. The BoF was seen as a way to give a nation hosting experience without throwing them into the deep end and giving them someone to fall back on.

Which co-incidently is exactly what the Baptism of FAIL is Experienced host i.e. me and newbie host i.e. Yafa

We are not FIFA but FIFA maintains the laws of association football as we know it, as defined by the IFAB. Any modification made which is not allowed in FIFA's/IFAB's laws would mean the game played is no longer association football.



You totally missed my point; I have nothing against replays.

My point that resolving round-robin ties were not the same as resolving match draws referred to your sentence saying we have traditionally let the hosts determine tiebreaking criteria. We have indeed let them determine tiebreaking criteria, but only to separate teams in a group situation.

Furthermore, if the competition rules mandated replays, then the match would not have been one in which a winner was needed, and thus not bound by the away goals/extra time/penalties rule. The key term in the statute is "where rules require there to be a winning team after a match".

Rules change over time but as they are now, it would not allow what the hosts plan to do to a tied replay.

Don't the WCC Rules say "The hosts have complete control over all areas of the WC except for a ...(a list of things of things which doesn't include the way Knockout round draws are handled)"?

Okay, well I might of paraphrased but still FIFA/IFAB rules have nothing to do with NS Associated Football, the only organisation that matters for the NS World Cup is the WCC, which as far as I understand, give hosts the right to do such things as proposed by the CH/Universitus bid

The Soviet captain called the flip and lost :D

In Soviet Russia, coin defeats YOU!!

Sorry, had to be done.

In Soviet Russia, coin defeats YOU!!

Sorry, had to be done.

In Soviet Russia, Coin flips YOU!

In Soviet Russia, Coin flips YOU!

In Soviet Russia, Flips coin you!

More shocking this Cup: Taeshan qualifying or Qazox getting out of 1st round? Please disscuss and cite examples.

More shocking this Cup: Taeshan qualifying or Qazox getting out of 1st round? Please disscuss and cite examples.

You had a make the 2nd round some time so if you stuck at it ... you'd get lucky and numbers roll your way.

Jeru FC have almost qualified for last 3 cups, you need far more luck to qualify since it's over a longer span of games.

You had a make the 2nd round some time so if you stuck at it ...

True, just didn't think it would take 9 tries.

Qaz? you suck, you stole my World Cup 40 berth, ya bastard! so i hope you get squashed by cafundeu in the round of 16

Qaz? you suck, you stole my World Cup 40 berth, ya bastard! so i hope you get squashed by cafundeu in the round of 16

And I hope that your ROBODUCKS get melted down into a pile of slag.. oh wait.

Question: How many more weeks or days left before the 41 World Cup ends?

We interupt our live coverage of the first ever meeting between humans and aliens from another planet for this shocking news report.

Qazox makes the knockouts of the WC.

Is this a sign of the apocalypse? Tune in at 11 for the report!
--------------------

finally someone else from the class of 27 to try and carry the banner this far. about damn time :p

Question: How many more weeks or days left before the 41 World Cup ends?

Approximately 7/8 days - The Knockout round for the WC is just about to start.

Currently, the final will tentatively be held on July 13.

Note to all in A to D (I know I'm on the wrong nation right now) that your cutoff today is 1500 UTC, so you have another half-hour to get RPs in.

Congrats, Qaz!

I know schadenfreude is bad, but still...
*Sel Appa ceased to exist and was dealt an 80-point penalty.

The irony. It burns.

The irony. It burns.

I laughed. :p

Augh. That's cost me an easier 2nd round match. 9th seed instead of 32nd. Great.

Congrats, Qaz!

Qaz isn't the only nation to have made the second round against all recent precedent. Qaz's run may be better known (largely because he's never let us forget about it), but there's also the unexpected group-winning performance from my 34th-ranked monks.

Admittedly the Archregimancy has made the knock-out stages previously - even reaching the quarterfinals in WC28 - but according to Daehanjeiguk, this is the monks' first knock-out appearance since WC32. That's a gap of 9 cups, as many tournaments as it's taken Qaz to reach the knock-out stages since first qualifying.

And he's been qualifying far more consistently in the interim.

Pity about the blancmanges, but if a co-host will (ic'ly) force both squads to play in plastic bags, a 0-0 draw's only to be expected, you know.

First knockout appearance for Vephrall as well, though granted we've only been at it since 36. :)

Augh. That's cost me an easier 2nd round match. 9th seed instead of 32nd. Great.

don't worry i never seem to beat you in the WC proper. only in the non WC related events or group stages i seem to do ok.

Man, talk about what goes around comes around. Vephrall did the same thing to me that I pulled against Cafundeu in WC 40.

Margaret, striving for equilibrium since...

I know schadenfreude is bad, but still...


The irony. It burns.

Yay for entering the knockout, ass backwards.

Qaz isn't the only nation to have made the second round against all recent precedent. Qaz's run may be better known (largely because he's never let us forget about it) , but there's also the unexpected group-winning performance from my 34th-ranked monks.

Admittedly the Archregimancy has made the knock-out stages previously - even reaching the quarterfinals in WC28 - but according to Daehanjeiguk, this is the monks' first knock-out appearance since WC32. That's a gap of 9 cups, as many tournaments as it's taken Qaz to reach the knock-out stages since first qualifying.

And he's been qualifying far more consistently in the interim.

Pity about the blancmanges, but if a co-host will (ic'ly) force both squads to play in plastic bags, a 0-0 draw's only to be expected, you know.

Well welcome back to the big leagues, Arch!

All things must come to an end eventually. Squornshelous will not be signing up for World Cup 42. I simply don't have the time and energy to do it justice with RP's anymore. Anyone who wants to incorporate the demise of Squornshelous as a nation into their own country's RP style is more than welcome to. I've had a lot of fun with the world cup, and I wish everyone, old and new nations, the best.

-Squorn

All things must come to an end eventually. Squornshelous will not be signing up for World Cup 42. I simply don't have the time and energy to do it justice with RP's anymore. Anyone who wants to incorporate the demise of Squornshelous as a nation into their own country's RP style is more than welcome to. I've had a lot of fun with the world cup, and I wish everyone, old and new nations, the best.

-Squorn


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

<sob>

Yikes, the old folks' home is feeling pretty empty now.

That makes me the only remaining member of the Class of 5, with only Arch and the recently-returned Dennisov and EB having been around longer. And for continuous participation, the hat is now passed to the SLANIs.

Farewell, Squorn. Been great having you here.

GL in the future, and we hope you come back, Sqournshelous.

At this rate, Qazox and Tynelia will be the longest continually SINGLE NATION participants by World Cup 45. (i'm not counting re-births, and Green wombat, as the later have missed out on a couple Cups).

maybe one of us will actually reach a finals by then...

0-3-0. I feel like Cameroon...

YAY! I can post!

I know schadenfreude is bad, but still...


The irony. It burns.

WHAT?!?!?!

Resonse (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13814892#post13814892)

Since I was penalized yesterday and then returned before the Round of 16, I hope the hosts will have the sense and decency to do the right thing for Sel Appa. Also please note Sel Appa will still exist until I RP it ceasing to exist. *resists the urge to argue, quarrel, bicker, and disseminate expletives in regards to this issue* :)

I think Irony would be more if one of the proponents of this policy got knocked out by it, but the concept of irony confuses me a lot. -_-

Onward to the rosters...

I'm sorry, but I'm going to abide by what some people have said earlier in this thread (I guess you were among them, ironically (EDIT: Veph tells me you weren't, nevermind that part of my post)): IF you can't be arsed to log into your nation at least ONCE in a 30 day period and you cease, then why should the hosts even try to accomodate you? You know you have the ability of holidaying, which gives you the ability to not log in for 60 days straight, and you could not even take the opportunity? Another point: The fact you ceased shows you didn't care at all about the World Cup, so, once again, I don't think we should accomodate someone who didn't care enough before the knockout phase began. I mean: Have we even seen a RP or even a roster from you?

Ah crap... I'm going to stop here, I'm turning into the guy I'm currently criticizing

I honestly thought my time hadn't expired yet and was considering putting it on vacation mode yesterday. Also, I have been having computer problems lately, so I had less time for internet and the time I spent on NS got cut out. I also haven't been on an RP I administrate in two weeks because of my bloody computer. (Next time your AC adapter starts not wanting to work, buy a new one before it breaks).

Oli, you just don't like me.

I see you logged on Facebook some times during that month. If you were able to do that, you were surely able to log in to NS as well, no? And don't tell me it took you over a month to get a new AC adapter, even I live in a somewhat remote place and I could get one within 10 minutes if I wanted... Anyway, the fact is: I believe that, if your nation ceased, well: you shouldn't expect to get back in the World Cup. We already settled that issue once, no?

P.S. I'll take your advice about buying a spare AC adapter ;)

I honestly thought my time hadn't expired yet and was considering putting it on vacation mode yesterday. Also, I have been having computer problems lately, so I had less time for internet and the time I spent on NS got cut out. I also haven't been on an RP I administrate in two weeks because of my bloody computer. (Next time your AC adapter starts not wanting to work, buy a new one before it breaks).

Oli, you just don't like me.

Sel, after what happened at the last World Cup (screams internally), I personally think it's rather against the grain to ask the hosts to reverse this decision. We voted on it only a couple of months ago, you knew the rules - and, alas, you have fallen foul of them.

I would suggest to the hosts and WCC Pres, however, that the 80-pt penalty be held in abeyance from the KPB totals due to the fact the nation in question has returned.

And, let's face it, is there anyone here Oli does like? :D

Sel, after what happened at the last World Cup (screams internally), I personally think it's rather against the grain to ask the hosts to reverse this decision. We voted on it only a couple of months ago, you knew the rules - and, alas, you have fallen foul of them.

I would suggest to the hosts and WCC Pres, however, that the 80-pt penalty be held in abeyance from the KPB totals due to the fact the nation in question has returned.

And, let's face it, is there anyone here Oli does like? :D

Not posting on my host account here, but anyway.

Emphasis mine. I have no issues with this.

Sel, as the Second Round draw has been conducted, I can't give you a pass in unfortunately. Had our schedule allowed for a second round draw after the group stage you might've met it but I won't change the rule I campaigned hard for when we voted on it.

Ultimately, this decision would be up to LE/Ad'ihan, as he is the one performing the scorination.

But if it were me, under the circumstances that Sel Appa has resurrected his country in time for the R16 (although for how long his country has been CtE in NS, who knows - and I'm taking this %$#^ about "I'm RPing my exit" when you don't even have an account with which to post - you were CtE by the very definition), I would consider allowing the change, as a reward for managing to perform such an action in due time. I personally would still incur some penalty for allowing it to happen, because it happened in the first place.

If LE agrees with me (I very much doubt it, and he is very well allowed to enforce Sel Appa's current penalty), then that may mean a readjustment of the xml files to accommodate Sel Appa's re-entry, the removal of a very well qualified team that was able to maintain his NS account in the interim period, and other side effects potentially (including ooc displeasure among the NSWC community at large at exploiting opportunities).

Nonetheless, as far as I am aware, the hosts still maintain discretion over the actions concerning CtE nations. And since LE will be dealing with it, I'll defer any official response to him; it's his right to do as it suits him best.

EDIT - and as it seems, LE has already decided.

Certainly as far as I'm aware though this is the first time a nation has resurrected themselves after an 80 point penalty but before the next round of scorination which they would otherwise have been involved in.

I should stress that my decision should in no way set future precedent, and that it should/will always remain up to the hosts to decide.

(This apparently new situation is also the reason why Daehan and I differ on this, we never considered such a situation. Certainly, it's one for future hosts.)

Qazox in the quarter-finals.

Discuss.

Qazox in the quarter-finals.

Discuss.

I'm sorry. My scorinator broke.

And, let's face it, is there anyone here Oli does like? :D

Qazox in the quarter-finals.

Discuss.

Well Oli doesn't dislike me, I think.

My bribes must have worked. Now Daehan, where would you like the Gold Vault from Fort Knox sent to?

I think it only ceased within the past few days < 5 or so. I was a one-nation region, so the region went down the chute along with Sel Appa.

In this circumstance where the nation does return in time, you really have the dilemma I brought up might happen.

Combined factors made it not impossible to go on NS, but improbable. I honestly thought I had more time to log in and had been thinking I better get on and at least put a roster. Then I was asked/reminded on FB to post a roster, so I finally got up and did it.

This really is the unusual case where someone did come back in time. This isn't like Naboomba Umbonga not coming back or me coming back after the match was scored. I did come back before the match occurred.

Finally, as I have stated several times, Sel Appa will not cease to exist until RPed as such.



On another note, I was hoping to host WC42, but I got RP fatigue and didn't get the prerequisite World Cup win I wanted. I had an awesome them idea for it...oh well...

I'm sorry. My scorinator broke.

Then you should resim your entire part of octafinals.

Most importantly that Valanora vs. Milchama match. Something looked very wrong there :)

Just in case somebody thinks I'm serious, I'm not don't worry

Sel, you may not have ceased to exist ICly if you wish, but for all intents and purposes of WC41 you did. As I said, I'm not going to go against something I voted so strongly for.

First of all, allow me to congratulate Sel Appa for addressing this problem commendably calmly. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation, I think we can all agree that Sel has matured considerably since he first entered the NSWC.

But I agree that LE/Ad/Liv is well within his rights here. The exclusion of Sel Appa from the second round for a CTE is the hosts' right. Had Sel reactivated between the CTE and the second round draw, it looks like he would have been allowed in, but given the timing, this has proven impossible. LE isn't psychic, and given that Sel had muttered in this very thread earlier in the cup that he was losing his enthusiasm and might not participate for much longer, there was good reason for thinking that this might have been a permanent CTE.

However, given the nation's quick revival, I would join those who have suggested that Sel not be hammered with the 80 point penalty in the KPB rankings, and that his 'penalty' be limited to his non-qualification for the second round.

However, given the nation's quick revival, I would join those who have suggested that Sel not be hammered with the 80 point penalty in the KPB rankings, and that his 'penalty' be limited to his non-qualification for the second round.

That works for me.

CUP OF HARMONY 33 ANNOUNCEMENT

The Group Draw has been posted along with the schedule. RP bonus now will officially begin to get counted. It's time to play! (Well not until official MD1 scorination which will be Tuesday). Details in the informative post just made on the thread.

Rosters will be linked up by the end of the day.

<sigh>

All these world cups with two nations - 1-4, 7, 24, and then both nations for almost every tournament since 25 - and I've still only ever reached the quarterfinals in the three tournaments I've hosted or co-hosted (2, 28, and 34).

That's a combined total of somewhere between 35-37 tournaments across both nations with only three quarterfinals and not a single semifinal.

With Qaz making it through to the quarters in a tournament he's not hosting, I hereby claim the unofficial NSWC crown for long-term underachievement and futility.

Behold God's righteous judgement on a realm of sinners!

I think Irony would be more if one of the proponents of this policy got knocked out by it, but the concept of irony confuses me a lot. -_-Oh, no, you're right, humor isn't quite my thing.Discuss.Not a great day for high seeds, it seems.

see Wentland? what did i tell you. :cool:

However, given the nation's quick revival, I would join those who have suggested that Sel not be hammered with the 80 point penalty in the KPB rankings, and that his 'penalty' be limited to his non-qualification for the second round.

Since we seem to have no objections to this, that's what will be done. Sel Appa will be credited with 6 points from the group stage, not -74.

Also, I am willing to set precedent here and put forth a motion that any CTE point deductions, under any circumstances, be removed from consideration in the rankings. For one thing, in the vast majority of cases, it doesn't matter anyway because the nation doesn't end up returning. And in cases such as this one, it seems to me to be unnecessarily harsh. Your thoughts?


Also, an interesting fact: five of this Cup's eight quarterfinalists are nations ranked outside the top 20. First time I can recall that happening in a good long while.


Finally, a presidential reminder: the deadline for Baptism of Fire bids is the conclusion of the quarterfinals, which I believe would be Tuesday morning here in North America.

see Wentland? what did i tell you. :cool:
I'm astounded. It's ironic that I'm on my 2nd best run ever when none of my RPs have had anything to do with the actual pseudo-football.

<sigh>

With Qaz making it through to the quarters in a tournament he's not hosting, I hereby claim the unofficial NSWC crown for long-term underachievement and futility.


Yeah, guess I can't complain about anything again until after World Cup 56. dammit.

(oocish: I've now posted the same amount of times in the NWCDT as I have in the OWCDT... now back to the music...)

I think I've learned something here...

Terrorism = bad

CoH 30 - Mujeongbu activists were talking about bombing Casari during the CoH; no opportunity came, but despite not losing a single match (2 wins, 2 draws), the Han failed to make the next stage.

WC40 - Qualified for World Cup, and on the very last match blew up stadium in Casari, subsequently drew one match and lost the others by a large margin.

WC41 - OH BOYZ... blew up a bunch of people in C&M, blew up fewer people in Cafundeu, blew up an undetermined number in Krytenia/West Starblaydia (whoever is responsible for the security in that region should at least acknowledge that something happened, otherwise we'll blow it up to oblivion), and planning for more; only point came from an uneventful 0-0 draw to Wentland.


The moral of the story?

Margaret dislikes terrorists/terrorism.

Then you should resim your entire part of octafinals.

Most importantly that Valanora vs. Milchama match. Something looked very wrong there :)

Just in case somebody thinks I'm serious, I'm not don't worry

You're right.

*re-scores Valanora-Milchama match*

Valanora 0-0 Milchama (3-3 AET, 10-9 on PK)

blew up an undetermined number in Krytenia/West Starblaydia (whoever is responsible for the security in that region should at least acknowledge that something happened, otherwise we'll blow it up to oblivion)

Something happened.

It will be incorporated into WC42 metaplot.

Put the fertiliser and wood screws down now.

If I may, I'd like to return to a point made earlier this cup shortly after the qualifiers.

While a huge majority of the qualifiers were in the top 32, there were concerns over the direction we were moving in regarding ranks. We're now down to the last eight in which only three of the teams are in the top 20 — and two are the top two, both of whom have RPed. In the long run I believe this is good.

Something happened.

It will be incorporated into WC42 metaplot.

Put the fertiliser and wood screws down now.

(o)_(0)

*adds the two together and gets a freaky tire-guy monster*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/MichelinManRunning.png

Okay, so I got a little tired of us being unable to edit World Cup stuff on NSwiki. Therefore...

Let the migration process begin! (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup)

Anyone who wants to help out is more than welcome.

Ok so let me get this right about the BoF bids.

One bid is 2 countries posing as 1 country as a co-puppet. (Yafalonia and Bazor 2)

One bid is 1 country who is coming back after not being around for a World Cup or 2. (Krytenia)

One bid is 2 countries, 1 of which is a puppet of the other country. (Cafundéu/Estresse Intenso)

and the final bid is 3 countries, 1 of which is a puppet of 1 of the other 2 countries. (SLANI–Jasīʼyūn–Universitus).

Glad I don't have to vote on it!

Can someone please tell me who hosted the last two cup of Harmony's and the last two World Cups, or at least direct me to a page that has this information.

Thankyou.

Ok so let me get this right about the BoF bids.

One bid is 2 countries posing as 1 country as a co-puppet. (Yafalonia and Bazor 2)

One bid is 1 country who is coming back after not being around for a World Cup or 2. (Krytenia)

One bid is 2 countries, 1 of which is a puppet of the other country. (Cafundéu/Estresse Intenso)

and the final bid is 3 countries, 1 of which is a puppet of 1 of the other 2 countries. (SLANI–Jasīʼyūn–Universitus).

Glad I don't have to vote on it!

GAH! 4 bids! WC42 is the death of NS!

*vaguely recalls the answer to life, the universe, and everything*

Okay, so I got a little tired of us being unable to edit World Cup stuff on NSwiki. Therefore...

Let the migration process begin! (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup)

Anyone who wants to help out is more than welcome.

I'll step up to the plate, pick up the ball and run with it on that one.

Oh, and thank the Gods someone has remembered how to format wikitables - I'd completely forgotten.

Can someone please tell me who hosted the last two cup of Harmony's and the last two World Cups, or at least direct me to a page that has this information.

Thankyou.

Including the current ones (WC41 and CoH33):

World Cup 41 Hosts: Ad'ihan and Daehanjeiguk (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=557763))
Cup of Harmony 33 Hosts: Newmanistan and Zwangzug (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559933))
World Cup 40 Hosts: Krytenia and Starblaydia (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=552797))
Cup of Harmony 32 Hosts: Starblaydia and Krytenia (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=554227))
World Cup 39 Hosts: UCS SLANI and Valanora (forum names New Manhattan and Elves Security Forces) (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=547989))
Cup of Harmony 31 Hosts: Cafundéu and Daehanjeiguk (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=549704))

(o)_(0)

*adds the two together and gets a freaky tire-guy monster*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/MichelinManRunning.png

Nunc est *BOOM*bendum.

Thanks Starblydia especially for the links they were of great help.

Okay, so I got a little tired of us being unable to edit World Cup stuff on NSwiki. Therefore...

Let the migration process begin! (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup)

Anyone who wants to help out is more than welcome.

on that note is* any of you guys able to help me actual;ly make a better page for my country seeing as its been in that awful way on wikistates since i joined(the new one)

* Are should actually be there i believe

If I may, I'd like to return to a point made earlier this cup shortly after the qualifiers.

While a huge majority of the qualifiers were in the top 32, there were concerns over the direction we were moving in regarding ranks. We're now down to the last eight in which only three of the teams are in the top 20 — and two are the top two, both of whom have RPed. In the long run I believe this is good.

Liv / LE makes a valid point here. Given how prone we sometimes are to whinge, it's worth pointing out a positive.

I was one of the people who raised concerns about fossilisation of the rankings earlier in the tournament, and I'm encouraged by what's happened in the group and knock-out stages of the tournament proper.

Again, sometimes we're all a bit quick to whinge (and I'm including myself there), so it's sometimes worth taking a moment to acknowledge that we might have been wrong. I still think we should always keep an eye out for the general ranking situation, but this cup has provided some good, but by no means unreasonable, surprises.

The world is right once again, as Qazox is out of the World Cup.

The world is right once again, as Qazox is out of the World Cup.

The stage is set for either the most momentous moment in Starblaydi footballing history...

or...

SLANI and Valanora happily skipping their way through to the final unmolested while the rest of us are squished under their mighty, mighty boots. Bit of a bugger to have the 22nd, 24th and 27th ranked teams in the same QF bracket as the number 1, though it's the same on the other side has number 2 facing off against 16, 21 and 32.

(I'm probably mixing up some of the Pre- and Post-Qualifier ranks for us lowly twenty-somethings, but you get the idea)

so it's sometimes worth taking a moment to acknowledge that we might have been wrong.

NEVER!! ;)

No you do make a valid point.

*sob*

So close to a semi against a team ranked below me...

...the team that's had the run I would have had if Sel Appa had not CTE'd...

OFFICIAL PRESIDENTIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

All right, folks, it's time to start voting for Baptism of Fire hosts.

This time around, we have FOUR bids. Yes, that means the vote isn't just a rubber stamp this time.

Your choices (in reverse order by time of last reply to the thread, just because it's convenient that way):
Cafundéu and Estresse Intenso (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559484) (2 nations, 1 person)
Capitalizt SLANI, Jaseuyeon, and Universitus University (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559872) (3 FAs or equivalents, 2 nations, 2 people)
Krytenia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559894) (1 nation, 1 person)
Yafalonia and Bazor 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559522) (1 nation, 2 people)

This is an EWCC vote, and thus open to everyone who has previously hosted (or is currently hosting) a World Cup, with the exceptions of Cafundéu, Capitalizt SLANI/Jaseuyeon, Krytenia, and Bazalonia, all of whom are candidates.

Due to concerns being raised about the voting method in place for the Cup of Harmony vote, in addition to the fact that this time I have no planned absence during the voting period and the fact that there are fewer eligible voters (meaning telegram overflow should not be a concern), I will accept votes by telegram to Vephrall in addition to e-mail to nswc.president@gmail.com.

Voting will conclude Tuesday 15 July, 2230 UTC.

* * *

Also a final reminder - World Cup 42 hosting bids are due by scorination of the World Cup 41 final.

Thank you.

Okay, so I got a little tired of us being unable to edit World Cup stuff on NSwiki. Therefore...

Let the migration process begin! (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup)

Anyone who wants to help out is more than welcome.
I would if I had stable computer access... <3 Wiki-editing!

Cafundéu and Estresse Intenso (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559484) (2 nations, 1 person)
*endorse*

@ Arch--Yeah, I tried to keep it calm and keep in my fierce anger and disgust. :)

Sel Appa will either sue the WCC in court or maybe I can find a way to RP our dropping out of the World Cup, like they all ate bad Ad'ihan food. :p The latter will be done if the hosts accept it as the reason and not that we were disqualified. Our team got sick or there was some other problem...like maybe this is revenge for our disruption back in the 40 qualifiers...or was it 39...or... Whatever happened to those three fellows who started it anyway? I stopped reading the thread after awhile.

@ Arch--Yeah, I tried to keep it calm and keep in my fierce anger and disgust. :)

Sel Appa will either sue the WCC in court or maybe I can find a way to RP our dropping out of the World Cup, like they all ate bad Ad'ihan food. :p The latter will be done if the hosts accept it as the reason and not that we were disqualified. Our team got sick or there was some other problem...like maybe this is revenge for our disruption back in the 40 qualifiers...or was it 39...or... Whatever happened to those three fellows who started it anyway? I stopped reading the thread after awhile.

I'm not LE, but I'm pretty sure that he would reject this idea (reason why in bold).

You were aware of the rules stated by the hosts, and LE had every right to enforce this policy as stated. The fact that you resurrected your country before the scorination event is at this moment irrelevant. Nonetheless, I am pleased that you did keep your cool, and I wish that we (as in the NS community at large) would keep our sentiments this way in general - there's absolutely no point in making a hostile argument with people over the Internet.

*me puts away the wagging finger*

On another note, I would completely support the maintenance of an NSWC Presidential email account, if only to keep it for emergency situations. As has been mentioned, TG accounts are only open to about 20 TGs; supposing we needed more than 20 TGs to fulfill a task (coupled with the possibility that the NSWC President might be busy with other NS affairs...), the use of a generic email account allows the NSWC President to hold whatever is necessary with little worry of the items in question being lost. There's also the added perk of saving votes and stuff for future reference, because honestly, I have no clue what rules and regulations are currently in effect for the WCC at large (besides those that are most frequently and prominently displayed, and even then only sparingly). Having an email account is certainly useful; but as it is a Presidential account (and nothing in the WCC says a President must maintain a generic email account for emergency use), I don't think we should make it mandatory.

Freedom of choice :D

Also, you have 24 hours until the pivotal clash between Valanora and Starblaydia - don your proper right now!

I reckon we should have generic NSWC nation for the NSWC president, so it can be used to do stuff like collect votes and free of the clutter from other sources.

I reckon we should have generic NSWC nation for the NSWC president, so it can be used to do stuff like collect votes and free of the clutter from other sources.

We can always use the NSWC Signups account for that if we need to.

We can always use the NSWC Signups account for that if we need to.

Good point, considering ... no one ever TGs that account.

True, though it, like all other NS accounts, still has a limit of 20.

The telegram overflow that occurred during WC41 host voting in my inbox occurred without any other unrelated telegrams coming in, and took a grand total of an estimated 16 hours. It is unreasonable, in my opinion, to expect someone to check telegrams every few hours to prevent this, especially if that person has a job.

Of course, I suppose one could technically allow votes to be sent to either the president's nation's telegram box or to, say, NSWC Signups. Of course, it's still entirely possible for either of those to fill up well before the other might, and the person sending the telegram has (as far as I know) no idea whether this is the case. So that doesn't really seem like a viable solution to me.

Y'know I really thought I had a few more days. I can't believe I let it deactivate like that. Forget the World Cup, my nation was never supposed to be deactivated. NEVAR!

Anyway, hopefully my activity will rekindle... Maybe I just need a new nation...

Y'know I really thought I had a few more days. I can't believe I let it deactivate like that. Forget the World Cup, my nation was never supposed to be deactivated. NEVAR!

Anyway, hopefully my activity will rekindle... Maybe I just need a new nation...

Try making a puppet :D - it probably will give you RP ideas for WC42; at the worst, you'll be spending twice as much time agonizing over two countries chances at winning the WC/BoF/CoH...

Y'know I really thought I had a few more days. I can't believe I let it deactivate like that. Forget the World Cup, my nation was never supposed to be deactivated. NEVAR!

Anyway, hopefully my activity will rekindle... Maybe I just need a new nation...

What's the old addage?

You play with fire, you get burnt

You ignore logging in to your account because you think you still have a couple of days, and you get ceased.

I hope when RPing it is alright to take inspiration from bits that have already been done outside of the forum.

ack the irony gods are taunting me a second time. I beat Star twice and KP once and they're both in the semis now. hmm i guess i should be rooting for them then so Tynelia can use the ol' "we beat the champs" line that failed to inspire us so miserably when we tried it with Az-cz after their first win.

ack the irony gods are taunting me a second time. I beat Star twice and KP once and they're both in the semis now...

It's the Starblaydi culture and general outlook on life that's permeating the scorinators and doing you down: 'You can beat us, but we're still better than you'.

Either that or just jolly poor luck, old boy.

i think i'm going to call dibs on being the new Jeruselem. weren't they perrennial first round knockouts for a whole bunch of cups in a row a while back? oddly enough i think it was Starblaydia that was the source of most of those eliminations if i recall rightly.

<starts renaming all Tynelian players to have the last name 'Houston'>

I hope when RPing it is alright to take inspiration from bits that have already been done outside of the forum.

Rest assured that you can get away with just about anything so long as you don't ignore the RP instructions of a nation in that Cup's roster thread - though more active nations often appreciate being asked before you do something really drastic.

And if they didn't bother to post a roster or RP instructions, you can get away with anything. Including having sentient man-eating blancmanges consume their team.

And if they didn't bother to post a roster or RP instructions, you can get away with anything. Including having sentient man-eating blancmanges consume their team.

The panna cotta stratagem?

NEVER!! ;)

No you do make a valid point.
Except we have the 2nd ranked team in the semis with scarcely an RP. ;)

And now, we pause for today's moment of personal reflection.

This new Jolt color scheme is U-G-L-Y. It ain't got no alibi. It ugly.

This has been today's moment of personal reflection.

This new Jolt color scheme is U-G-L-Y. It ain't got no alibi. It ugly.

*throws a bottle of urine at Veph until he leaves the stage*

*throws a bottle of urine at Veph until he leaves the stage*

Just how many times can you throw one bottle? :p

Just how many times can you throw one bottle? :p

It's on a string so I can bring it back and throw it again. Be prepared.

And now, we pause for today's moment of personal reflection.

This new Jolt color scheme is U-G-L-Y. It ain't got no alibi. It ugly.

This has been today's moment of personal reflection.

Good thing I use the NationStates skin, then.

Except we have the 2nd ranked team in the semis with scarcely an RP. ;)

SLANI have two finals RPs. That's still more than some of the other finals teams.

Rest assured that you can get away with just about anything so long as you don't ignore the RP instructions of a nation in that Cup's roster thread - though more active nations often appreciate being asked before you do something really drastic.

And if they didn't bother to post a roster or RP instructions, you can get away with anything. Including having sentient man-eating blancmanges consume their team.

I guess that also includes having the hosts' fans eat said sentient man-eating blancmanges, conveniently packaged in plastic bags (although we have yet to dispel rumors of cannibalism during that match...)

"The Regular Second"
Women's World Cup runner-up: x4
Cup of Harmony runner-up: x1
F1 Drivers' Championship runner-up: x2
F1 Constructors' Championship runner-up: x2


I am on the fast track to stealing this honor from you, with our latest finals loss. ;)

Starblaydia in a World Cup Final? What is this World Cup 28??

J/K WTG Star.

Rest assured that you can get away with just about anything so long as you don't ignore the RP instructions of a nation in that Cup's roster thread - though more active nations often appreciate being asked before you do something really drastic.

And if they didn't bother to post a roster or RP instructions, you can get away with anything. Including having sentient man-eating blancmanges consume their team.

Yeah thanks, mate I was more referring to what some one might refer to as plagarism, one of my posts was similar to a scene in an actual movie and I was wondering if this is allowed as it is now entirely original.

Yeah thanks, mate I was more referring to what some one might refer to as plagarism, one of my posts was similar to a scene in an actual movie and I was wondering if this is allowed as it is now entirely original.

Heh, I rip stuff off all the time on "DSPN," so I don't see why not... call it an extensive homage!

Although it may explain why my team plays so inconsistently sometimes ^_^

It could be argued that there is nothing new under the sun, everything is a re-hash of something already told.

I doubt anyone really cares, though if the hosts knew, they might add or subtract from your RP bonus because of it but it wouldn't be anything really to worry about. unless you get sued by the IP holders. which I would say very unlikely

Yeah thanks, mate I was more referring to what some one might refer to as plagarism, one of my posts was similar to a scene in an actual movie and I was wondering if this is allowed as it is now entirely original.

In which case the blancmanges are still relevant since, as Milchama has already pointed out, they were a fairly unsubtle rip-off of an old Monty Python sketch.

The relevant roster page for the squad included a naked piece of open plagiarism, with an only subtly-changed direct - and unattributed - quote from that sketch.

So you're still probably alright.

Rip-offs, parodies, inspirations and homages are all good. Direct copy-pasting of something else from outside is just plain wrong (iirc a while back someone copy-pasted a match report from a football website and just changed the names, but got found out fairly quickly).

Oh and w00t for a chance of the most improbable Double ever - Starblaydia is in both the World Cup and AOCAF finals!

the more things change the more they stay the same <waves to the Starblaydian finalists...who it must be pointed out were beaten twice by Tynelia in the qualifiers so even if they win it all they can't beat us...hmm i think i'm posting under the wrong nation again..oh well>

seriously though- is this the record for most finals appearances? or is Star just adding to his own record at this point?

seriously though- is this the record for most finals appearances? or is Star just adding to his own record at this point?

Appearances in the Final is Bedistan with seven (and four titles). Rejistania has six (and four titles). This will be my fourth (with two titles). I'm joint-third on the list with Liverpool England, Audioslavia and Ariddia at the moment, as far as Finals goes.

Source (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup#Summary_by_nation)

I've been here a long time, but not that long! :D

Good thing I use the NationStates skin, then.

So do I. It too was f'ed up at the time of that post; thankfully they've fixed it now. :)

SLANI in a World Cup Final? What is this World Cup 15??

LOL. WTG u2.

You can tell that I just loved WC41 so much that someone had to wiki it (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup_41)

(you people in "red" need to make "~~~ national football team" and "country data" stubs ASAP ;))

And Jolt does look different... (just like life, they keep changing it on me every time I turn around! it's %$#^ frustrating...)

(you people in "red" need to make "~~~ national football team" and "country data" stubs ASAP ;))

I don't use wikistates.

In which case the blancmanges are still relevant since, as Milchama has already pointed out, they were a fairly unsubtle rip-off of an old Monty Python sketch.

The relevant roster page for the squad included a naked piece of open plagiarism, with an only subtly-changed direct - and unattributed - quote from that sketch.

So you're still probably alright.

Excellent, my post was similar to a scene from European Vacation so thanks, and cheers for your input to Dan.

I don't use wikistates.

Neither do I, and I should say now that I'd appreciate if no-one made an article on Ad’ihan or our team for me. I will wait for NSWiki to return, and until then will continue to use my temporary base at bluwiki.

You can tell that I just loved WC41 so much that someone had to wiki it (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/World_Cup_41)

(you people in "red" need to make "~~~ national football team" and "country data" stubs ASAP ;))

And Jolt does look different... (just like life, they keep changing it on me every time I turn around! it's %$#^ frustrating...)

on that note can you help me with my pages on wiki my nation page and my team page i just need them set up and i can probally fill in

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

Due to circumstances beyond my control (ie: the missus), I will be away from NS between tomorrow (July 12) and July 26.

This will mean a likely start date of July 28/29 should I win the BoF vote (which, I'll admit, is now less likely :)).

The AOCAF Cup Final will be scorinated as planned later this evening.

on that note can you help me with my pages on wiki my nation page and my team page i just need them set up and i can probally fill in

okay... i'll see what we can do...

here's a starter for you. (http://wikistates.outwardhosting.com/wiki/Taeshan_national_football_team)

i did find something you might have been able to fill in "team nickname" thanks for starting it now i have to go threw all the mumbo jumbo how do you add the text to the right and stuff???

The best thing to do is to look at completed pages to see how they do it, and make the "preview" button your bitch ^_^

The best thing to do is to look at completed pages to see how they do it, and make the "preview" button your bitch ^_^

Interesting concept Dan^um anybody able to help with my nations main page it just utterly sucks rght now

Taeshan, I made some minor edits on your article-you can change it back if you don't like them.

To list items, use asterisks, and to make a section of an article, use two equals signs on either side (==Sports==).

How do you get the little flag images?

um how do you put stuff beside the texbox because mim trying to put the rosters in on the side but it wont let me make the titles then put the names in

In order to prevent having two overlapping voting periods, submissions for World Cup 42 hosting bids will be extended through Tuesday evening (North America).

Remember that Baptism of Fire host voting is still open through Tuesday at 2230 UTC. With four competing bids and only three votes received so far, your votes will make a difference!

(OOC: dang Jolt lag)

YAY I lost to the champs. WTG Starblaydia!

(ooc2: Now the OXEN Cup has a reason for it.. to show off the NSWC Champs!)

My congratulations to Star.

While Starblaydia has of course won the WC previously, newer nations may need to be reminded that Star dropped out of the tournament and then returned with a KPB ranking of 0 fairly recently. This has been an extraordinary rise from a 0 KPB rank to WC champions - surely one of the most rapid we've seen in some time.

My congratulations to Star.

While Starblaydia has of course won the WC previously, newer nations may need to be reminded that Star dropped out of the tournament and then returned with a KPB ranking of 0 fairly recently. This has been an extraordinary rise from a 0 KPB rank to WC champions - surely one of the most rapid we've seen in some time.

Just four Cups (38 to 41). I think hosting the third of those, WC40, helped to propel me a little farther up the rankings than other nations in my position, but with a little luck it seems anything is possible - it would have been the equivalent of me winning the Cup in WC18, which frankly in the KPB era is incredible.

I can scarcely believe it myself, and thanks for all the congratulations.

Ironic, though, isn't it? Loads of teams get nowhere after lots of WCs, Star returns and voom goes straight back to the top.

It's that lucky purple. Taeshan's shade just obviously isn't right.

It's that lucky purple. Taeshan's shade just obviously isn't right.

huh

oh and are you going to be doing my olympic and U21 jersys

huh

oh and are you going to be doing my olympic and U21 jersys

You only posted 9 hours ago, be patient.

does anyone do emblems out there. th TSF needs an emblem for the wikipage and our jerseys.

We were thinking ove a diamond type with a Knight(purple standing on a flat grass in the middle and TSF written in purple on the gold background on the bottom

Anyone have any clue as to when the next Baptism of Fire/WC Qualifiers are going to begin? Just curious, since I'm going on vacation for a week and a half, with very limited net access at best. Being able to post RPs would be good, I should think.

Oh, and congratulations to Starblaydia for winning both the AOCAF and the most recent WC!

Anyone have any clue as to when the next Baptism of Fire/WC Qualifiers are going to begin? Just curious, since I'm going on vacation for a week and a half, with very limited net access at best. Being able to post RPs would be good, I should think.

Oh, and congratulations to Starblaydia for winning both the AOCAF and the most recent WC!

The hosts for the BoF will be decided this Tuesday, so it's likely that that will begin toward the end of this week. As for WC qualifying...I'd say that's probably at least two weeks off.

The hosts for the BoF will be decided this Tuesday, so it's likely that that will begin toward the end of this week. As for WC qualifying...I'd say that's probably at least two weeks off.

Thanks for the information! Looks like Zongguo will be waiting for the next BoF/WC, then.

With news that the Baptism of Fire is due to start soon, manager Andrew Wood will have to decide who to keep in his Oxen Cup squad, and who to send to the Baptism of Fire tournament, that is assuming, Land de Wood, don't get knocked out in the first round of the Oxen Cup, which might allow the same squad of players to play in both tournaments.

Having said that different squads in different tournaments will allow fringe players to gain some international experience in the Baptism of Fire competition.

And what with our youngsters due to take some part in the U-21 World Cup when it is arranged, a good number of our footballers will have plenty of opportunity to show of any talent they may have.