NationStates Jolt Archive

The situation that the eastern block nations found themselves in had absolutely nothing to do with a lack of investment in education. These nations suffered from a lack of industrial capacity before the war, and from a ludicrous communist economic system after it. Poland has always had one of the best, and most rigorous educational systems in the world. In the 50s and 60s, your average Polish student graduated high school speaking three languages fluently, namely Polish, Russian, and one of the classical languages (Latin or Greek). Even today, being tri-lingual is practicaly mandatory for any asspiring university candidate, though the classical languages have been left as the fourth language needed to gain a doctorate. The University of Krakow has rivaled such prestigious schools as Oxford for hundreds of years.

Poland "lagged behind" America due to 123 years of foreign occupation, 2 world wars which that nation bore the brunt of, and 40 years of economic neglect at the hands of the Communists. If it were not for those factors, Poland would have had ample opportunity and ability to be amongst the leading economic and technological powers of the world. Even today, after only 15 years as a capitalist nation, she is the success story amongst former Warsaw Pact countries, has the most robust economy in Eastern Europe, and is on her way to becoming the next big star of the European financial world. I must say that I find your assessment to be faulty.

First, let me remind my colleague Fluffywuffy that the purpose of the Panel is to judge, not to advise.
Secondly, Crimson Sith, your oversimplistic and ideologically-biased analysis of the economic history of Eastern Europe highlights precisely the reason why I want to be sure that a diverse range of viewpoints is represented on the Panel. Stalinism is clearly flawed, but its flaws should not blind us to the shortcomings of capitalism (hasn't worked so well for--oh, 90% of the whole world), and what Eastern Europe actually experienced was more like Colonialism, anyway.
But I will end my comments there, as this is not really the place for such a debate (you know where I may be reached, sir).
As for the candidacy of Lesser Ribena, I see no difficulty with a membership of four providing that the President carries a weighted vote in case of a split decision, and LR sounds like the closest to a real economist we've got, with Fluff as second.
And all you people who need information? Can't you use search engines? Google and Ask.com are usually pretty good for finding at least something. Failing that, try an Encyclopedia at your local library.
Hm. I seem to be a cranky old man. Anyway.
In the absence of a ruling by Hrstrovokia on who should play the US, I've taken the liberty of posting a POLL (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100) . It's not binding, of course, unless either:
Crimson Sith and Galveston Bay both agree to abide by the results, or
Hrstrovokia says it's binding.
But hey, it's something to do.
VOTE (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100) It's Your Damn DUTY (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100)

I would be America, I want to prevent America from installing South America dictatorships and turn the Vietnam war to an American victory.

Yeah I looked, nothing.

First, let me remind my colleague Fluffywuffy that the purpose of the Panel is to judge, not to advise.
Secondly, Crimson Sith, your oversimplistic and ideologically-biased analysis of the economic history of Eastern Europe highlights precisely the reason why I want to be sure that a diverse range of viewpoints is represented on the Panel. Stalinism is clearly flawed, but its flaws should not blind us to the shortcomings of capitalism (hasn't worked so well for--oh, 90% of the whole world), and what Eastern Europe actually experienced was more like Colonialism, anyway.
But I will end my comments there, as this is not really the place for such a debate (you know where I may be reached, sir).
As for the candidacy of Lesser Ribena, I see no difficulty with a membership of four providing that the President carries a weighted vote in case of a split decision, and LR sounds like the closest to a real economist we've got, with Fluff as second.
And all you people who need information? Can't you use search engines? Google and Ask.com are usually pretty good for finding at least something. Failing that, try an Encyclopedia at your local library.
Hm. I seem to be a cranky old man. Anyway.
In the absence of a ruling by Hrstrovokia on who should play the US, I've taken the liberty of posting a POLL (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100) . It's not binding, of course, unless either:
Crimson Sith and Galveston Bay both agree to abide by the results, or
Hrstrovokia says it's binding.
But hey, it's something to do.
VOTE (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100) It's Your Damn DUTY (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426100)

I am ok with the poll, but only if Hrstrovokia is

Although capitalism has its flaws (Great Depression being the most obvious example), it still worked out better in the long run than the alternatives... but in the historical perspective, we are talking 1900 to start with so state communism, socialism, and fascism haven't been tried yet, and unfettered capitalism is the primary economic system in place in the industrialized world, tempered in some cases by state efforts (Japan for example).

As far as research goes, finding data on some of the lesser developed nations, especially in 1900, isn't going to be easy on the internet. You need either scholarly works (some are available, some aren't) online, but it might be faster to go to the library and do some digging in the reference section of a High School or College Library, or a major public library in a reasonably large city. If that isn't available, than obviously it gets harder, and you simply may have to wing it for a while and assume your pretty much broke if you aren't an industrial state and use historical information when it can be found on your military forces, and maybe sacrifice some of those to get money to buy things like more schools etc... best I can do for you.

Idealogy shouldn't really have a place in this, although obviously it will color opinions, but after all, a lot of information on economics is available in the historical record, and until some revolutionary changes occur in the history during gameplay we should be ok to start with I would think.

I have sufficient information to post what 1910 will look like, and short of a major war right off the bat, that should give everyone a reasonable estimate of what their growth will be like (for the big 10 powers anyway) and the smaller powers can probably extropolate from there. I will post it tomorrow.

The way I see it...

China has very little industrialization at 1900, correct? Thus, building and employing steam tech and engines would be a good stepping stone to the full industrialization of China. The USA and Britain went through the same thing in 1800's.

China can develop efficient boilers and with enhanced safety features to reduce the risk of constant boiler explosions and problems.

Another benefit of steam power is that it only needs coal or wood, which are quite plentiful resources. Wood is a renewable resource, which is another plus. Oil / gas isn't necessary for steam power (not counting lubricants), which means my China can hold off relying on oil for a bit.

I'll eventually get internal combustion engines, probably by 1915. I could steal some engines from any nation who has them. I can RP some tourists or whatever buying cars and internal combustion engines, then use back-channels to move it into China via shady means.

For example, I can have a rich tourist go to the USA, see a Model T or a 1915 era car. He buys it, then ships it to, say, Russia, Korea, or Indonesia, avoiding any possible embargo or trade restriction. Then ship the car or engine from the "third-party" nation into China, then I can commence research on the internal combustion engine.

Its far easier to "steal" common tech, like cars or medicine, than to steal secret / restricted tech like nuclear power or stealth material.

I'll eventually get internal combustion engines, probably by 1915. I could steal some engines from any nation who has them. I can RP some tourists or whatever buying cars and internal combustion engines, then use back-channels to move it into China via shady means.

For example, I can have a rich tourist go to the USA, see a Model T or a 1915 era car. He buys it, then ships it to, say, Russia, Korea, or Indonesia, avoiding any possible embargo or trade restriction. Then ship the car or engine from the "third-party" nation into China, then I can commence research on the internal combustion engine.

Its far easier to "steal" common tech, like cars or medicine, than to steal secret / restricted tech like nuclear power or stealth material.

No need to steal.. this is the golden age of unfettered capitalism... someone will definitely sell all the internal combustion engines China can buy, and even loan you the money to do it with (chuckle). Then hope you don't meet the payments, default and give them an excuse to steal more concessions and territory out of China.

No need to steal.. this is the golden age of unfettered capitalism... someone will definitely sell all the internal combustion engines China can buy, and even loan you the money to do it with (chuckle). Then hope you don't meet the payments, default and give them an excuse to steal more concessions and territory out of China.

Thats true. :p

However, if I play my cards right, I can develop a China with an actual backbone instead of bending backwards to accomdate foreigners. ;)

As for the candidacy of Lesser Ribena, I see no difficulty with a membership of four providing that the President carries a weighted vote in case of a split decision, and LR sounds like the closest to a real economist we've got, with Fluff as second.

Indeed a president carrying say 2 votes should solve the problems of a 50/50 split and still allow a democratic soloution in that the president will not be too powerful and can be overturned in a vote against him. I wouldn't say i'm a real economist though!

Is this the panel at the moment?

Fluffywuffy
Vas Pokhoronim
Hrstrovokia
Lesser Ribena

If so I nominate Hrstrovokia for president, it is his RP.

Since we are discussing China's plan to become a power, I'll just post my ideas for Korea.

From the start, I will reduce the size of my military. I will train what military I have to be guerilla fighters and focus everything else on my economy. Education, industrialisation, modernisation, etc. will all be funded to the maximum. If I can get a rich nation to loan me money, then I'll get that. If I can buy some technology, then I'll take it. I've gotta get rich and fast, or I'll die quickly.

But all that will be worth nothing if everyone invades me. So I've got a strategy involving a few petty conquests at the start. A few Pacific islands that are unoccupied will be taken with the ultimate goal of annoying Japan. I'll use this to blackmail Japan into not invading me. After all, I'm sure Japan wouldn't like, say, Russia getting a few stategic Pacific islands. Russia, I think, is less easy to pacify. Port Arthur, the main Russian naval base in the Pacific, is very close. If Russia pisses on me, I can send my fishing boats and do as much damage as possible. If I take Port Arthur, that's all the more leverage with China and Japan (Japan once had Pt. Arthur, and I'm sure they'd like it. China also had the penninsula that the Port sits on).

China, I think, will be my best friend at the start of the game. We're both poor, we've both got collective enemies, and we border one another. So we've got to stick together in order to survive. I'd be willing to share technology and work collectively until we can individually defend ourselves. Other poor nations are also good strategic partners.

For the panel, yeah, that's it. And whoever said I was second for sounding most like an economist, I think that's pretty good for a high school student!

Indeed a president carrying say 2 votes should solve the problems of a 50/50 split and still allow a democratic soloution in that the president will not be too powerful and can be overturned in a vote against him. I wouldn't say i'm a real economist though!

Is this the panel at the moment?

Fluffywuffy
Vas Pokhoronim
Hrstrovokia
Lesser Ribena

If so I nominate Hrstrovokia for president, it is his RP.
Not Hrstrovokia, but Galveston Bay, who is presently acting as presumptive President (at least I voted for him, and nobody voted against him).
And GB and I are both primarily historians by training rather than economists--but yeah, Fluff, not bad for a high school student.
I think that we should post a new thread for the Panel, which will have as its first post a regularly updated list of players and their various ratings. I think either GB should do this, as President, or else we create a communal puppet so that we can all edit posts if necessary.

Perhaps Hrstrovokia just came up with the idea and is having us implement it. It's just a thought, but perhaps we can start the RP at any time--I'm itchin' to get started, anyways.

Anyways, your idea has merit, Vas Pokhoronim. We could have that communal puppet create the thread, we send each other the passwords, and we're off. When we create the ratings, perhaps we all rate each country seperately. We then average them all together and come up with the results. Before we begin, we must decide on what currency standard are we using. Are we using today's dollars, or those of the 1900s? If it is of the 1900s, perhaps someone should post the value of one 1900 dollar vs. one 2005 dollar. Once we agree on that, we can get ratings up.

EDIT: Perhaps our post for the puppet can look like this:

America

Fluffywuffy's rating: $40,000 per capita
Vas Pokhoronim's rating: $30,000 per capita
Lesser Ribena's rating: $45,000 per capita
Average: $38,333.3
Population: .....
GDP: ......
etc.

Perhaps Hrstrovokia just came up with the idea and is having us implement it. It's just a thought, but perhaps we can start the RP at any time--I'm itchin' to get started, anyways.

Anyways, your idea has merit, Vas Pokhoronim. We could have that communal puppet create the thread, we send each other the passwords, and we're off. When we create the ratings, perhaps we all rate each country seperately. We then average them all together and come up with the results. Before we begin, we must decide on what currency standard are we using. Are we using today's dollars, or those of the 1900s? If it is of the 1900s, perhaps someone should post the value of one 1900 dollar vs. one 2005 dollar. Once we agree on that, we can get ratings up.
I'd recommend today's dollars--it'd be anachronistic and a little weird, but a hell of a lot less work for everyone concerned.
I'll take the liberty of creating a new state and pass its information along to you and my other colleagues. If the others don't like the idea, it'll be easy enough to let it lapse.

I'd recommend today's dollars--it'd be anachronistic and a little weird, but a hell of a lot less work for everyone concerned.
I'll take the liberty of creating a new state and pass its information along to you and my other colleagues. If the others don't like the idea, it'll be easy enough to let it lapse.

I will generally cite whatever dollars are being used in whatever information I provide

new economics thread can be found here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9077694#post9077694

Not Hrstrovokia, but Galveston Bay, who is presently acting as presumptive President (at least I voted for him, and nobody voted against him). And GB and I are both primarily historians by training rather than economists.

Ah I see. I have no quarrels with GB being president and as Fluffywuffy says:

Perhaps Hrstrovokia just came up with the idea and is having us implement it. It's just a thought, but perhaps we can start the RP at any time--I'm itchin' to get started, anyways.

Maybe Hrstrovokia has decided not to become involved. I haven't seen him post recently (if this isn't true then I apologise) so maybe we should think about getting started soon. Also the idea of a communal posting puppet sounds good a idea and fluffy's posting template seems good, whereby we average out our decisions to get a roughly correct GDP.

Since we are discussing China's plan to become a power, I'll just post my ideas for Korea.

From the start, I will reduce the size of my military. I will train what military I have to be guerilla fighters and focus everything else on my economy. Education, industrialisation, modernisation, etc. will all be funded to the maximum. If I can get a rich nation to loan me money, then I'll get that. If I can buy some technology, then I'll take it. I've gotta get rich and fast, or I'll die quickly.

But all that will be worth nothing if everyone invades me. So I've got a strategy involving a few petty conquests at the start. A few Pacific islands that are unoccupied will be taken with the ultimate goal of annoying Japan. I'll use this to blackmail Japan into not invading me. After all, I'm sure Japan wouldn't like, say, Russia getting a few stategic Pacific islands. Russia, I think, is less easy to pacify. Port Arthur, the main Russian naval base in the Pacific, is very close. If Russia pisses on me, I can send my fishing boats and do as much damage as possible. If I take Port Arthur, that's all the more leverage with China and Japan (Japan once had Pt. Arthur, and I'm sure they'd like it. China also had the penninsula that the Port sits on).

China, I think, will be my best friend at the start of the game. We're both poor, we've both got collective enemies, and we border one another. So we've got to stick together in order to survive. I'd be willing to share technology and work collectively until we can individually defend ourselves. Other poor nations are also good strategic partners.

For the panel, yeah, that's it. And whoever said I was second for sounding most like an economist, I think that's pretty good for a high school student!

regretably, all of the Pacific Islands are pretty much claimed or occupied by an Imperial power by 1900

Korean military power isn't a lot to talk about in 1900, to give an idea of its combat value, read about the US Intervention against Korea in 1870s

a good reference giving some information on 19th Century Korea can be found here
http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol49no1/html_files/first_attache_5.html

full details of the US and Korean military clash can be found best in a book called "The Savage Wars of Peace" which covers the nearly 100 US small wars and interventions dating back to the start of the Republic....lots of good information on Latin America here too by the way, as well as the Boxer Rebellion

Ah GB has done a thread. In that case problem sorted and ignore most of my lats post! Though the bit about Hrstrovokia still stands.

Can i still join or not? if possible I would like to become British india

Swinotopia you should still be able to join, we haven't started yet. You should be able to claim India; no one else has it that I am aware of. If you decide to become independent from Britain (Sarzonia) you will have a lot of hungry asian countries on your doorstep who are desperate for more territory.

Anyway looks like Sarzonia's going to have a lot of rebellions on his hands in the colonies soon!

Hey, sorry for my lack of participation recently, ive just had my hands full with events lately, and im sorry i havent had time to work things out here. I'm not ignoring this, but you have to realise that I cant be here 24/7. Anyway, i'll be online at 4am GMT to sort things out, and yes - the game will start soon, most likely this Friday. Again, sorry!

1913 information provided here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9078329&postcount=2
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9078405&postcount=3

this will help you figure out what your growth is likely to be if you are one of the Great Powers. Industrial output of Belgium is included as well, as it was actually more industrialized than any part of Eastern or Southern Europe and one of the biggest industrial plants in the world at the time.

EDIT: Perhaps our post for the puppet can look like this:

America

Fluffywuffy's rating: $40,000 per capita
Vas Pokhoronim's rating: $30,000 per capita
Lesser Ribena's rating: $45,000 per capita
Average: $38,333.3
Population: .....
GDP: ......
etc.
The other thing I'd like to do, as an EconoMod, is supply comments on the social effects of a country's policy, like "agricultural protests," "labor agitation--widespread but largely peaceful," "general strikes," "bread riots," or "business leaders unhappy," "stock prices degenerate," "creditors liquidate debt," "capital flight." These would be recommendations for roleplaying more than enforceable imperatives (except, perhaps, in very severe cases), but it would make things less dry and more realistic.

In 1900 is the region of Macedonia under Ottoman control? Just wondering as who i should seek to rebel against and who i should be asking for support.

In my opinion, after we get involved and kick off this RP, the imperial colonial powers like USA, England, France, etc. would have very hard time holding onto their Pacific Ocean islands and territories because of the sheer distance involved. They'd have to sail a sizable military force over 8,000 miles from Europe (past Africa and India) or from California to Japan or Indonsesia.

On the other hand, the indigieous powers such as China, Korea, Japan, etc. will be fighting right on their own doorsteps, which reduce logistics and can more rapidly respond to threats than European powers. What's more, if the European powers do devote a significant military force to the Pacific, their military in their homelands would be significantly weaker, opening up possibilities for invasions and such.



That aside, I'm looking forward to what can happen with this Earth... will China, Korea, and Japan become super-powers while the USA remains stangant? Or will there be a World War III? Or will nukes never be developed?

I just love alternate history, I'm a fanatic of it. :D

i think asia colonies shouldnt be too much of a problem for me (france). France had and still have a foreing legion, wich recruits from everywhere. for my protection in indochina, it should be quite enough. at worst, i could send some troops but it wouldnt need such logistics. also, you must not forget that the main colonialist have full control over the country, so there is no problem of protect our back in our colony (except, of course, if its RPed by someone (i.e. india).

Who is RP'ing Russia? Just wondering.

I still don't know anything about Columbia :(

If this is still open I'd love to take Viet Nam. Revolution time!

The important thing to remember about colonial revolutions is that NONE were successful until after World War II because the Imperial powers simply had too many advantages in training, firepower, logistical methods, organization and doctrine. The Boxer Rebellion was defeated by less than 20,000 Western troops, the Philippine Insurrection has already been defeated, the Sepoy Rebellion crushed 50 years before... the list is endless. Only Italy ever suffered catastrophic defeat from a native power (against Ethopia) and in spite of the initial problems the British had, they overpowered the Boers.

It took a couple of world wars to so weaken the Imperial powers to the point that they lost their colonies. Alternate history to be more than fantasy requires a reasonable and logical point of divergence that allows for changes to occur. For example, an earlier World War I, or one Imperial power arming the locals against another Imperial Power (like happened in the Cold War).

The nations under colonial control don't have access to sufficient weapons, ammunition and the other tools of war, or the methods necessary to fight the Western Way of War successfully. In fact, no non Western (as in European trained or organized state, including Japan and the US) is able to defeat a Western nation from the time of the Mongols in war until the Japanese defeat the Russians in 1905, and the Japanese were using Western methods and equipment. It took Chairman Mao to develop effective guerilla warfare tactics and for those to spread for the Vietnamese, Indonesians and Algerians to win their war of independence (and arguably the Algerians won their war on the peace table, not the battlefield). Both of these victories were against second or third rank powers at the time (post war Dutch and French). The North Vietnamese won their war against the US by simply outlasting the US will to fight, but at a horrendous cost, and a lot of material help from the Soviets and Chinese.

Insurgents in the Colonial world occasionally won battles and skirmishes, but they always were crushed in the end. At least until after World War 2.

The Colonial Empires ended because the Imperial powers were too exhausted economically and politically to be willing to fight to hold them, not because they were really driven out.

Well put. And sadly accurate.
I'd say myself that guerrilla warfare was first used to decisive effect during WWII by the Russians and Chinese, but in concert with conventional war, with a relatively equivalent technology between the adversaries.
If I were you, Sharina, I'd prepare myself for a long struggle against the Great Powers (a decade or two at least) and not count on native Chinese inventiveness (considerable, of course, but at this time, a thousand years out of practice) to overcome your disadvantages quickly. (And Russia is played by "the Scandinvans" [sic].)
As for the rest of you poor bastards, I'm on your side. But freedom is likely to be a long time coming.

Well put. And sadly accurate.
I'd say myself that guerrilla warfare was first used to decisive effect during WWII by the Russians and Chinese, but in concert with conventional war, with a relatively equivalent technology between the adversaries.
If I were you, Sharina, I'd prepare myself for a long struggle against the Great Powers (a decade or two at least) and not count on native Chinese inventiveness (considerable, of course, but at this time, a thousand years out of practice) to overcome your disadvantages quickly. (And Russia is played by "the Scandinvans" [sic].)
As for the rest of you poor bastards, I'm on your side. But freedom is likely to be a long time coming.

I would say Guerrilla warfare first took root in Ireland immediately after the rebellion of 1916, leading to partition in 1922(i think that was the year) Plus the 800 years of resistance before that have been filled with covert attacks on British assets on the island.

ANYWAY can someone answer my question from before? Who is in control of Macedonia in 1920? Ottoman empire is what i was thinking but i am not sure.

Okay, a couple of points.

First, I'm not looking to have China suddenly self-sufficient and independent by 1901 or 1902, or that soon.

Second, remember this is alternate history. I can RP a leader like Mao unifying the disparate peoples of China under one banner much earlier than what happened in RL times, and have them overrun the foreign troops. I can apply the "Bow + arrow" principle here, meaning that bows + arrows can defeat gun-wielding troops.

For this example, if I was an Aztec general, I'd be able to defeat the Spanish Consquiadators by ambushing them in the rainforests with bow + arrows, until there were no more Spanish Consquiadators. IIRC, the Spanish sent 1,000 troops under Cortez to try to conquer the Aztecs.

Scale that up to 20,000 foreign troops in China, and it is still a very do-able situation. I can easily stage ambushes by drawing out foreign troops into the countryside or whatever, then kill them and take their guns + ammo. That kind of thing.

Ok, it's 4:42 am. I've come online here tonight [despite just working all day & night] to show you I am dedicated to this Community, and I will do my best to give you guys everything I've got. Now, I know I've got alot of catching up to do [and Sharina, I promise to get you the information on China] but I will stick with important matters for now.

First off, Vas Pokhoronim's suggestion to add a social commentary based on the effects of the implementation of economic policies is, I believe, a worthy idea and I personally think we should adopt this. It will give some much need reality to the game, where nationstates will be on their guard against internal aswell as external problems and give us more to work with.

Secondly, we do need a "Second-in-Command" to allow things to move along when I get lazy...I mean when I'm not here...nominations are welcome, but be warned - this will not be an easy job, but will be rewarding in the long-term.

[OOC: And on a personally note, there were strippers in the bar where I work tonight. They took off their clothes. Your Mother would not approve. What is this country coming to?!]

Ok, it's 4:42 am. I've come online here tonight [despite just working all day & night] to show you I am dedicated to this Community, and I will do my best to give you guys everything I've got. Now, I know I've got alot of catching up to do [and Sharina, I promise to get you the information on China] but I will stick with important matters for now.

First off, Vas Pokhoronim's suggestion to add a social commentary based on the effects of the implementation of economic policies is, I believe, a worthy idea and I personally think we should adopt this. It will give some much need reality to the game, where nationstates will be on their guard against internal aswell as external problems and give us more to work with.

Secondly, we do need a "Second-in-Command" to allow things to move along when I get lazy...I mean when I'm not here...nominations are welcome, but be warned - this will not be an easy job, but will be rewarding in the long-term.

[OOC: And on a personally note, there were strippers in the bar where I work tonight. They took off their clothes. Your Mother would not approve. What is this country coming to?!]

Internal problems? Sounds quite interesting for RP.

Terrorists, coups, revolutions, rebellions, etc. I'm liking this Earth even more. :p

Are there any nations still available?

I would say Guerrilla warfare first took root in Ireland immediately after the rebellion of 1916, leading to partition in 1922(i think that was the year) Plus the 800 years of resistance before that have been filled with covert attacks on British assets on the island.

ANYWAY can someone answer my question from before? Who is in control of Macedonia in 1920? Ottoman empire is what i was thinking but i am not sure.

up until 1912 the Turks had it.. they lost in the First Balkan War (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria vs Turkey)

Who is RP'ing Russia? Just wondering.

The Scandinavians are RPing Russian, though said player seems to be generaly absent from this discussion. Perhaps someone should contact The Scandinavians to see if he is still interested in participating. If he is not, then we need to find a player to take on the major role of Russia, just as we need someone to play the USA. If I am not selected for the USA, which it would seem that I am not, I'd like to forward my candidacy for Russia if it turns out that role is open.

Also, I'd like to apologize for my recent lack of participation. I've had a pretty long and tiring week at work, and really haven't been doing anything other than working and sleeping. I've already taken steps to change this situation, so it shouldn't prove to be a repeating problem.

I'll be sending Telegram's to everyone involved shortly in order to alert them of game start. Obviously there will be one or seven drop-outs, not sure who yet. Should we wait to see who's responded or just go ahead and start?

Thaqt's the rather unfortunate truth about the colonies. Unless they actually had the weapons or somehow managed to make life incredibly miserable for the occupying forces they were going to stay subjagated. Another method is to try for a peaceable method of independence a la Ghandi. For example, if I'm accepted as Viet Nam I plan to have Ho Chi minh petition France for independence sometime around the time of when the First World War happens in our real life history. Should this fail then we're on to more diplomatic wrangling and possibly armed evolution.

So...Yeah.

I say we just go ahead and start.

Also, whoever found that Korea resource has enslaved me in debt. Also, from what I've found, the population of Korea in 1900 was just 11 million. For a few years I'll have a (mostly) stagnant population, with a slow shift from farmland to the big city. This is my current state, and let's hope it changes drastically.

I'll be sending Telegram's to everyone involved shortly in order to alert them of game start. Obviously there will be one or seven drop-outs, not sure who yet. Should we wait to see who's responded or just go ahead and start?

I would advise against starting the RP until we are sure that all the major powers are covered by active players.

Still waiting to be confirmed for Canada...

Damn hard to find Columbian information :(

I'll be sending Telegram's to everyone involved shortly in order to alert them of game start. Obviously there will be one or seven drop-outs, not sure who yet. Should we wait to see who's responded or just go ahead and start?

I just want to make it clear that I'm still in this as South Africa, but I'll be in Florida for the week. Don't count me out when I don't respond to the telegram before Friday.

Artitsa: It's hard finding Korea information--most of what I could find was from the 1950s--but searching for "Korea population 1900" eventually yielded results for me, if only to describe the Korean economy and its population. The military is going to be piddling nothing anyways, so military information is relatively unimportant for you.

I nominate Sharina for the position of 2-in-C.

*cough* Still waiting to be confirmed as Viet Nam.

[OOC: Ok, im aware that some of you may be getting a bit pissed off with my lack of participation lately, and it only gets worse - i wont be available til Monday. I'm working alot lately, since I need to pay for my holiday to California [w00t] but I will be getting three days starting Monday off work, so that will give me a chance to catch up on the back-log of work needed to be done here.

If you guys arent happy with the job im doing, then simply say so and ill step away from this and let someone with more talent and expertise head it up, i wont mind. I'm no brain myself, and besides - this is nothing without you guys. There is no monopoly on ideas, as far as im concerned this is a community not one person's plaything. Anyway, im really wrecked, im just worked 12 hours, so im going to bed. My only official action is to confirm Jensai as Vietnam.]

Take your time Hrstrokovia. Real Life is much more important than this, and needs to be of more priority. I'm sure everyone here can wait a few more days to start this thing up. You proposed it, you lead it, plain and simple. I don't think anyone else would be able to carry it through exactly how you wanted it.

I'm all right for waiting a little while longer to get this show on the road, besides, it'll be better if Hrstrovokia can put all of his attention into this instead of rushing because of people and giving a half-assed effort.

Indeed Hrstrovokia it is much more sensible to wait for everyone to be ready before we begin. Theres still loads of economic and historical data to collect for everybody ebfore we all know the states of our countries etc.

I mean what's a week or so in the grand scale of this RP? If it takes just that little bit longer to get everything ready it won't affect anything in the long run and can only improve the entire RP.

I'm perfectly more than willing to wait longer for this RP.

"All good things come to one who waits."

i totally agree. 1 or 2 days wont change much in an RP that will last a year or so.

BTW, i havent posted much recently because i have my last three exams this week, so i need to study. Sorry!

I've got the next three days off [w00t]. Expect massive updates. Some of you arent too keen on rushing ahead and commencing gameplay - duly noted, we will postpone it to another day, better to get everything sorted first. However, I am going to contact everyone who asked to be a part of the Community to see how many are still interested, might aswell.

I'm also going to add a 'Warning' to the opening post - "an in-depth & accurate knowledge of History is preferable but not required". I think somebody was getting anxious over the many newbies joining who might not have any idea of historical matters, so that should be some sort of deterrent.

Looking at the first page, I saw something I thought we had resolved: the independence of Korea. However, the list still has Korea as a stateless people. I don't mean to complain, but could you please fix this? Thanks.

I've tried looking for information on the Netherlands in 1900, but haven't found anything completely relevant. Does anyone else have any ideas? any sites I could go to?

Okay replying to make sure that I am in the thread.

I'm sorry Fluffy, I must have forgotten about that whole debate. Korea will be listed as an independent nation. Sharina, ive gotten a hold of 'Modern China' by Graham Hutchings, and ive collected as much information as possible under the headings - Boxer Rebellion/Guangxu Emperor/Qing Dynasty/Unequal Treaties, which I think is the most useful information. I have to write it onto the laptop from the book however, so it'll take me awhile, sorry :S

I'm sorry Fluffy, I must have forgotten about that whole debate. Korea will be listed as an independent nation. Sharina, ive gotten a hold of 'Modern China' by Graham Hutchings, and ive collected as much information as possible under the headings - Boxer Rebellion/Guangxu Emperor/Qing Dynasty/Unequal Treaties, which I think is the most useful information. I have to write it onto the laptop from the book however, so it'll take me awhile, sorry :S

Thanks, Hrstrovokia! That is so much appreciated!

I'm more than perfectly willing to wait, just take your time. I do not want to rush you or make you feel a pressure to hurry to get things done. If people hurry, they make many mistakes, or snap under the stress.

I have a question. I know Cuba was controled by someone. i know i said it in the thread but i forgot. And will i be listed at an independent nation as Korea or will I have to kill my way to freedom. :)

I have a question. I know Cuba was controled by someone. i know i said it in the thread but i forgot. And will i be listed at an independent nation as Korea or will I have to kill my way to freedom. :)

Cuba is independent in 1900.... sort of. Under the treaty that gave it independence after the Spanish American War the US gets to keep Gitmo (which will be handy later to intern terrorists I suppose) and under the Platt Amendment is allowed legally to intervene in Cuba whenever it wants too... until FDR put into place the Good Neighbor Policy. Historically the US did so during a period of unrest although I forget the dates (somewhere between 1906 and 1928)

changed my mind... il be the dominion of new Zealand.

I think it was made a dominion before 1900 am i correct???

IF not Il r.p. as the crown colony and Plead to britain to make me a dominion.

Can I be Sweden

Belgium please... It looks awsome and I love the history aspect!

History is awesome. I love speculating.."waht would have happened if..."

I googled 'history/colombia' and came up with a ton of websites. Give it a shot. You were probably struggling as you're spelling colombia wrong. colOmbia = country in south america. colUmbia = a river in washington state. ;)

OCC: Is my postion in Russia now maintianed?

OCC: Is my postion in Russia now maintianed?

I believe so, as long as you remain active in participation in this Earth. Otherwise, I doubt it. However, the decision isn't mine, its ultimately up to Hrstrovokia.

hi! can i be denmark please including iceland and greenland (which was part of there empire i think) cheers

I'm totally aware that people led separate lives away from Nationstates, and have other projects in NS, but I, along with all of you, would appreciate that people be as active as possible in E20 and not badly neglect it. If we've done so much work to define the gameplay and studying up on history, it would be a real kick in the face to find everything held up because somebody wasnt putting their bit in. So, to be perfectly frank, if I feel someone isnt putting in enough appearances, I would like to reserve the right to dismiss them.

I think its only fair to everyone else. If your not taking part in an rp which requires your involvement, say not posting atleast three times a week, then im going to issue a warning. Thats only fair I believe, because the roleplay which other people have put hard work and time into is being delayed and going nowhere because of one person. If you've got a decent reason, i'll understand, we all will. I'll issue a total of 3 warnings, then you'll get the boot. After that, the nation will be declared vacant and assumed to be in a state of anarchy until somebody else takes residence. Do we agree on this?

As for America, the position is still open. I was thinking of those of you who wanted to roleplay the North-South Civil War would now have the oppurtunity to do something along those lines, albeit along realistic lines.

Hrstrovokia, I agree with you completely. If someone can't find the time to put into this RP, they should resign, or should be removed. It is only fair to the rest of the community, I think.

As for the American Civil war idea, well, I think I would be interested in playing the Confederation. I'd commit alot of effort to the role, as it seems it would be a crucial one in our reality, which would effect the world profoundly. If I am accepted for this role, however, I would ask that all you American history buffs help me out a bit with info and general advice, as my knowledge of American history isn't as detailed as that of say Europe.

I developed an alternate history for another thread a few months back concerning a divided USA post Civil War...


In 1864, after a series of defeats including Chickamauga, Chattanooga and Knoxville, Lincoln lost the election of 1864 and the North agreed to peace with the South. However, the seeds of the destruction of the South and further breakup of the Union were in place. A series of bloody riots sparked further civil war in the North, preventing the construction of the transcontinental railroad and the states of California, Nevada, Washington and Oregon formed their own nation, the Pacific Republic*. Utah followed as well, forming the Mormon Republic of Deseret. The Plains Indians managed to hold out in the Great Plains, nearly isolating Colorado and New Mexico until the aftermath of the crushing of the Great Rebellion allowed the North to settle accounts with them and retain control over Kansas and the link to Colorado and New Mexico.

In the Old South, the Civil War ended between the North and South, but began again as a race war between black and white. Savage fighting tore the South apart, and in disgust, Texas quite the Confederacy, while Arkansas managed to prevent rebellion and remained independent of everyone else (forming an alliance with Texas). Concerned about a slave rebellion in Texas, many blacks were freed on the condition that they left Texas and most did in short order (moving to Louisiana, Mexico or the Old South). By 1870, the situation had finally stabilized but North America now consisted of several nations instead of a United States. Texas, which now included the Indian territory, the Confederacy (which spread back into the south from Louisiana and Virginia), the Pacific Republic, and the United States, with the Great Plains north of Kansas / Colorado and much of the Rockies being essentially left to the Indians. Arkansas chose to join Texas and the Indian Territory (essentially the 5 Civilized Tribes) in forming the Republic of Texas in 1869.

The two eastern nations were too exhausted from nearly a decade of war to even consider reabsorbing Texas and the Pacific Republic and Utah was not considered worth the cost of dealing with it.

Meanwhile in the US,
1864 Defeat in battle and the election forces Lincoln to accept the secession. The 1863 Riots that occurred in New York spread to other cities, forcing the Union to pull substantial numbers of troops from the lines to keep order. Rioting continued in waves into 1865.

January 3, 1865 Treaty of Hampton Roads signed between the United States and the Confederate States (celebrated ever after in the South and mourned in the North as Independence Day (in Dixie) and Memorial Day (in the North).

1865 President McClellan takes office and orders troops to brutally put down riots and strikes in the Northeast and Midwest. However, in August 1865, an embittered Abolitionist kills the President and Vice President, and many cabinet members when he enters the White House with a bomb and detonates it just outside the Cabinet Room. The Speaker of the House, Schuyler Colfax, takes over as interim President but orders a special Presidential Election to coincide with the 1866 Presidential Election.

Meanwhile, the State Governors are given control of their state troops, many of whom remain mobilized and angry about the peace treaty with the South, and riots are ruthlessly put down throughout the North. However, the failure to build a transcontinental railroad leads to the secession of the states of California, Oregon, Nevada, and Washington (forming the Pacific Republic), and shortly after, the Mormons declare their independence in Utah, creating the nation of Deseret. Along with the CSA, Sangro de Christo (a leftover from the breakup of Mexico in the 1820s and 1830s), Texas and Canada (Britain’s colonial dominion to the north), North America is split into 7 nations. Manifest Destiny is clearly dead.

1866 The Election is the most important election in American history to date as nothing less than the continued viability of the Constitution is at stake. In addition to congressional races, the 13th and 14th Amendments are on state ballots as well. Winfield Scott Hancock, hero of Gettysburg, is the Democratic Party’s nominee and his war record and good sense sees him win the election handily.

Hancock refuses to intervene while the South is having its own difficulties, and this restraint leads to a gradual improvement of relations between North and South, and good relations with Texas. His personal request to attend the funeral of Robert E. Lee is also a major step in repairing ties between North and South and does much to heal some of the rifts between the two counties. He gradually builds a consensus amongst the remaining states and peoples of the Union (which among other things, leads to the 15th Amendment clarifying that secession was not allowed).

1866 – 1868 Hancock and Congress agree to hold another Presidential election in 1868, and once again Hancock wins. He goes on to serve another term before his wounds and fading health acquired from the Civil War cause him to refuse the nomination in 1876.

The Union ends slavery and establishes citizenship for all native born Americans with the 13th and 14th Amendments, but financial problems force the country to spend much of the immediate Post War period recovering from the costs of that war. Strikes are a serious problem at times as well, but Hancock’s supporters in New York City and Chicago persuade him to take a neutral stance unless insurrection is threatened and gradually the Democratic Party is seen as the party of the working man, while the Republican Party is seen as the party of the farmer and white collar worker.

Hancock also manages to negotiate a deal with the Pacific Republic that gives the Pacific Republic Idaho and Montana, while the US retains control of the remaining territories acquired in the Louisiana Purchase (the Dakotas, Wyoming). Interest in the Transcontinental Railroad remains, but other issues are deemed more important and the railroads stretch through Kansas to Colorado, but go no further. His final act in office is to set aside the entire Dakota Territory (including Wyoming) as a replacement for the old Indian Territory, and although it remains under US jurisdiction, only official US government personnel are allowed routine access (this has the side benefit of providing a buffer between the Pacific Republic and the US, along with Deseret and Sangro de Christo).

The only notable foreign policy items during this period is the Colfax Administrations demands to France that it pull out of Mexico (which France quickly does), and the Hancock Administrations decision to continue an active US Navy presence in the Pacific Ocean (to protect American shipping). In general, the US is notably isolationist during this period but it remains a Mecca for immigrants, a trend that will continue. Only Texas and California draw even a tenth of the numbers that flood to the US. The US also hosts a Worlds Fair in 1876, in New York City, and among the important structures that are left behind is the Statue of Liberty, a gift from France.

1876 – 1880
Samuel Tilden, Democrat and Hancock’s Vice President, is elected President in 1876, and he continues to focus on US internal affairs. However, Indian intertribal warfare and the discovery of gold in the Black Hills of Dakota lead to the decision to revoke the Indian Treaties, and leads to a bitter war between the Indians and US Army that by 1879, leads to the crushing of all of the tribes and the establishment of reservations. It also leads to the construction of a rail line to Cheyenne (Wyoming) and closer relations with Texas which is fighting an Indian War as well.

In foreign affairs, the loss of 3 American warships wrecked in a typhoon off Samoa leads to demands that the US rebuild its elderly navy. By 1878, the construction of the first warships to entirely due away with sail and to be equipped with modern breech loading cannon has begun, with the first ships, the cruisers “Brooklyn”, “Chicago” and “Denver” mark the beginnings of a new and modern US Navy, equal in efficiency if not size to the Royal Navy.

Tilden is also very interested in Liberia, an American backed nation created on the African West Coast, and during the period when substantial Blacks are still having difficulties gaining acceptance in the North, manages to get money and congressional authorization to assist nearly 200,000 Blacks from the US and Texas (many are freed slaves) in emigrating there, and a US base is established as well in order to deal with slavers and protect the small nation from European encroachment.

His successor, Blaine, further improve the US relations with the world, and Blaine makes the US a naval power with the creation of a modern fleet. His successor, McKinley, oversees the establishment of the United States as a world power with the annexation of Hawaiian, Marianas, and Marshal Islands, plus pressures Spain to pull out of Cuba and defeats an aging Spanish Fleet in the Spanish American War, gaining Puerto Rico, the Philippines. During the war, the US and Pacific Republic come back together, and 4 states join the Union (California, Utah, Oregon, and Washington, along with Arizona and Idaho territories)

He is relected in 1900 with a new Vice President, Theodore Roosevelt after his heroism in Cuba his efforts as Secretary of the Navy prior to the War with Spain.

Meanwhile, in Texas, large amounts of oil have been found at Spindletop, and a few months later in Oklahoma and Lousiana.

The Nations of North America 1900
Deseret (Utah)(Mormon state)
Republic of Texas (Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana west of the Mississippi River, Oklahoma, New Mexico)
CSA (Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Lousiana east of the Mississippi)
USA (remainder of the USA)
Plus British colonies of Canada, Newfoundland, and of course an independent Mexico

US and Texas have defense treaties (to get Maximillian out in 1866 and continuing since).

CSA and USA have a peace treaty and generally try to pretend the other doesn't exist

USA has colonies in Puerto Rico, American Virgin Islands, Hawaii, the Philippines, and Alaska (bought by the Pacific Republic in 1869, came to the US when Pacific Republic did), and a de facto procterate in Liberia

does that work?

I want to be the US in this, as I have already done a lot of work for it in a previous thread. I have information on Texas in 1900 for whoever wants to play that.

a variant of this could also include the Pacific Republic, which allied with the US and acquired the Philippines, Hawaii, Guam and Alaska, and has the 6 western most US states but didnt rejoin the Union in 1899.

As for America, the position is still open. I was thinking of those of you who wanted to roleplay the North-South Civil War would now have the oppurtunity to do something along those lines, albeit along realistic lines.
As fascinating as GB's conjectured history is (and it is), do I really have to mention to you, Hrst, that the only reason America is still 'open' is because you have not for some unfathomable reason deigned to assign it? We've had two claimants, and an election, the winner of which--by a landslide, I might add--had also registered the earlier claim. If that's not decisive, then the indecision isn't coming from the community.
As far as the divided America, that's not what I signed on for, and I'd vote emphatically against it. The point, as I understood it, was to pick a particular point in history and see how things might have turned out differently is we had been making decisions, rather than people like Churchill and Mao. Starting from an already diverged history kind of dilutes the interest, at least for me.
Moreover, as an Economic Moderator (also presumptive--you've never actually ratified any of us), I'd have to say that it's enough work dealing with real countries and how things might turn out in those. Dealing with hypothetical ones from the get-go is--let's not start mincing words now--impossible.
I know these are strong words. You know me, and you the respect I have for you. But for God's sakes, man!
Decide a player for the United States.
Appoint a Deputy so you have help.
As far as kicking folks out goes, sure, but only after the play has actually commenced, for pity's sake. a person can't be blamed for not posting when time hasn't even begun, yet. And no disrespect intended to the player, but CS has been a little too eager to take people's countries, for my taste, and I'd take his support in that as perhaps a little self-interested.
Anyway.
For what it's worth, that's my rant, and I'm stickin' to it.

And no disrespect intended to the player, but CS has been a little too eager to take people's countries, for my taste, and I'd take his support in that as perhaps a little self-interested.

Should I be apologising for being eager to play a larger role in this game? What is it exactly that bothers you about my volunteering to play the USA, CSA, or Russia? It would seem that some kind of clique has formed within this game, and that for some reason I am disliked by said group. I'm not sure what it is about me that you find so distasteful or unlikable, and would appreciate it if you enlightened me. If, for some reason, I'm unwanted here, you need only say so, and I'll be on my way. Since the offset, I've done my best to contribute to this thread and this community in an intelligent and creative manner. I'm here to have fun, not to deal with some kind of hostility which, to the best of my knowledge, is unwarrented. In short, what's your problem?

Should I be apologising for being eager to play a larger role in this game? What is it exactly that bothers you about my volunteering to play the USA, CSA, or Russia? It would seem that some kind of clique has formed within this game, and that for some reason I am disliked by said group. I'm not sure what it is about me that you find so distasteful or unlikable, and would appreciate it if you enlightened me. If, for some reason, I'm unwanted here, you need only say so, and I'll be on my way. Since the offset, I've done my best to contribute to this thread and this community in an intelligent and creative manner. I'm here to have fun, not to deal with some kind of hostility which, to the best of my knowledge, is unwarrented. In short, what's your problem?
I said, no disrespect intended to the player. And that you seemed a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste. Which means, you're a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste.
That's your business, by all means. I'm not being hostile, or forming 'cliques,' or disliking you, or trying to interfere with your fun. The last is not at all my intention or desire. You just seem a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste.
I hope that clarifies things.

snip

don't look at me, I just want to play

any other opinions on the alternate history of the US above?

It's interesting and really cool. I think it would make a great background for a novel or maybe another RP. However, I thik we should stick with real world history up until 1900.

As much as I enjoyed GB's very detailed and plausible alternate history for the USA I agree with Vas Pokhoronim that we should keep everything 'as is' through 1900. Another completely different RP would be a good idea for playing out a USA/CSA split if there's that much interest in the matter.

I said, no disrespect intended to the player. And that you seemed a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste. Which means, you're a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste.
That's your business, by all means. I'm not being hostile, or forming 'cliques,' or disliking you, or trying to interfere with your fun. The last is not at all my intention or desire. You just seem a little too eager to take over other people's countries for my taste.
I hope that clarifies things.

I don't want to take over anyone's country. That's preposterous, and insulting. That I am eager to fill the role of a major power should the occasion arise doesn't seem to be too strange to me. Apparently, you find it offensive. The fact that I don't have your official approval to play a major role in this game doesn't negate the legitamacy of my desire to do so.

And just so we're clear, once this roleplay is started, I won't be abandoning whatever nation I happen to play for another. Once I start putting work into a given nation, I plan to stick with it.

*Cats hissing*

Whoa! I think everyone has missed the point of this. This is FUN. Not an excuse to be "holier than thou" for picking a nation. I think we should all just lay off eachother and let Hrst pick who the US is gonna be.

About the US: I agree that we should stick to the US being united. If someone wants to be a conferacy resistance, then they would be stateless and I'm fine with that. However, it is a cool idea and if we did use the disunited states idea, I would like to be Texas :D

Otherwise, I think the inventor of the idea should start another RP that we who are interested can do in the mean time.

I don't want to take over anyone's country. That's preposterous, and insulting. That I am eager to fill the role of a major power should the occasion arise doesn't seem to be too strange to me. Apparently, you find it offensive. The fact that I don't have your official approval to play a major role in this game doesn't negate the legitamacy of my desire to do so.

And just so we're clear, once this roleplay is started, I won't be abandoning whatever nation I happen to play for another. Once I start putting work into a given nation, I plan to stick with it.
You haven't read what I've written. I never said anything about being offended by your behavior, though I'm starting to be. I made a comment that was not intended to be insulting. If you find it insulting, that is your business.
Any further issue you have with me must be taken up by telegram--I will not respond to you on this subject again in the thread.

You haven't read what I've written.

Yes, actually I did.

I never said anything about being offended by your behavior, though I'm starting to be.

Whatever you say, lets just defy logic. :rolleyes:

I made a comment that was not intended to be insulting. If you find it insulting, that is your business.

That is my business? How convenient for you.

Any further issue you have with me must be taken up by telegram--I will not respond to you on this subject again in the thread.

I'm afraid I'll have to refuse endorsing you as an authority figure with the right to tell me what I must and must not do.

Your intentions were quite clear. Being rude, hostile, and arrogant doesn't really ease my mind or encourage me to cooperate with you in any way.

Crimson Sith, calm down, he is trying to be decent and civil and you are just spitting in his face. Can't we all just shake hands and be friends? I would hate to see a war in the first year of the 20th century.

Crimson Sith, calm down, he is trying to be decent and civil and you are just spitting in his face. Can't we all just shake hands and be friends? I would hate to see a war in the first year of the 20th century.

I am calm. And how is he trying to be decent and civil? By telling me what I must do, that he could care less if I'm offended, and by treating me like a mutt overall? Wow, civil has just got a whole new definition.

Galveston Bay, I think it'd be interesting to have the USA split into seperate parts for a more interesting RP, imagine WW I or WW II happening right inside the USA?

But it appears that the majority of players would prefer to keep the USA as it actually was at 1900, no splits. I'll go along with the flow, as I think Hrstovokia probably would feel the same way about keeping USA intact to simplify this RP project.

However, I'd be more than happy to RP in your alternate history Galveston Bay in another thread or something. :)

I am calm. And how is he trying to be decent and civil? By telling me what I must do, that he could care less if I'm offended, and by treating me like a mutt overall? Wow, civil has just got a whole new definition.

He merely said he thinks that you shouldn't take over several countries and you get mad about it. He didn't mean to offend you at the beginning but you just started getting so nasty about it i would be surprised if he didn't care if it hurt your feeling or not by the end of it.

He merely said he thinks that you shouldn't take over several countries and you get mad about it. He didn't mean to offend you at the beginning but you just started getting so nasty about it i would be surprised if he didn't care if it hurt your feeling or not by the end of it.

That's a very strange interpretation of what was written.

As for America, the position is still open. I was thinking of those of you who wanted to roleplay the North-South Civil War would now have the oppurtunity to do something along those lines, albeit along realistic lines.

I offered my alternate history of the US suggestion in response to this by the way...

thanks for the praise though (for those who were kind enough to do so), its always appreciated. I don't want to start another RP at the moment, as it wouldn't seem right and I don't want to step on anyones toes. Although later it would be fun. I enjoyed the hell out of the one Norrdreich and I ran a months back. World War I occured in 1905 (Russia/Germany vs France/British Empire/USA/CSA/Japan) and Germany managed to win the long 4 year struggle on land even while losing it at sea. However, as it had all of the Russian food and other resources available to it as an ally, the blockade simply didn't work and its superior tactics shattered the French Army eventually and forced a Anglo-American evacuation of the continent and a peace.

We never got around to World War 2, but it would have been Fascist France, Japan, Italy and Communist Russia vs Constitutional monarchies in Germany and Britain, and the North Americans around the early 1930s.

We gave up after too many players kept dropping out and we got busy with real life.

I offered my alternate history of the US suggestion in response to this by the way...

thanks for the praise though (for those who were kind enough to do so), its always appreciated. I don't want to start another RP at the moment, as it wouldn't seem right and I don't want to step on anyones toes. Although later it would be fun. I enjoyed the hell out of the one Norrdreich and I ran a months back. World War I occured in 1905 (Russia/Germany vs France/British Empire/USA/CSA/Japan) and Germany managed to win the long 4 year struggle on land even while losing it at sea. However, as it had all of the Russian food and other resources available to it as an ally, the blockade simply didn't work and its superior tactics shattered the French Army eventually and forced a Anglo-American evacuation of the continent and a peace.

We never got around to World War 2, but it would have been Fascist France, Japan, Italy and Communist Russia vs Constitutional monarchies in Germany and Britain, and the North Americans around the early 1930s.

We gave up after too many players kept dropping out and we got busy with real life.

Facist France? I thought Germany conquered and annexed France as you said Germany shattered French Army and victorious over land warfare?

Facist France? I thought Germany conquered and annexed France as you said Germany shattered French Army and victorious over land warfare?

France was defeated and got a nasty Versailles type treaty but was not annexed ... lost some colonies etc, and historically France had a significant Right and Far Right political movement during the 20s and 30s (part of the reason France fell apart in 1940 was that political divisions were so rife)

(New Shiron / Galveston Bay are the same person)

Probubly about time I put in my 2 cents worth.

1. 1900 should be the point where we break off from "real" history. As detailed as the information is on USA/CSA/TEX the game would be far easier on both the economists and those of us who love diplomacy if we know where exactly everything stood circa 1900.

2. Even though I didn't vote for him, Galviston Bay won the USA election, and thus should run the USA.

3. Enough debates, we've talked and talked and talked about what we should be doing, what we could change, this and that and the other thing. I say get this game started, Hrstrovokia. Make a IC thread already, and declair unilaterally what the rules are, ratify or don't ratify the economic panel, and have us start posting. If problems come up, we can post our oppinions on solutions, but if we continue trying to iron out all the problems before this game even begins, we'll be here debating pointlessly until August, and probubly 3/4 of the players will be long gone.

Well, that's it for me.

Argentina

Ok [/me cracks whip] everybody cool down. I wasnt aware an election had taken place for the position of the US. Had I been aware, I would not have suggested tricking around with the history of the US. I saw what I thought was the oppurtunity to give alot of people what they wanted, however it seems not everybody wants this, and its creating too much division amongst us. Therefore, I'm putting all other idea's for the US on ice until further notice. I dont want to lose anyone from the Community over this, and certainly dont want to create an unworkable environment filled with hostility.

Anyway for Sharina - This is as much on the Boxer Rebellion as I could find, I'll post some info on the Empress Dowager next. If I can help anybody else, I will do my best.

China entered the twentieth century in decline. Its territorial fringes - and, thanks to the Boxer Rebellion, its capital - were occupied by foreign powers, its sovereignty impaired by Unequal treaties. The country's idealogy and institutions, founded in the previous millennium to serve a timeless, universal empire, were in crisis, its Manchu, Qing Dynasty rulers unable or unwilling to reform. Dissent stalked the capital; regional governors resisted re-centralization. Hardly a province was untouched by rebellion. Outside half a dozen major urban centres, the economy remained stubbornly, overwhelmingly, agrarian. Most Chinese were illiterate and conducted their lives according to customs little changed down the centuries. In almost every respect China was ill-prepared for the struggle between industrialized nations destined to shape the new century. In 1900, China's very existence seemed under threat.

Boxer Rebellion -

The Boxer Rebellion of 1899-1900 was a spectacular, violent and above all tragic manifestation of much that was wrong with China at the beginning of the twentieth century. Its origins lay in oppression and rural superstition. Its course involved killing and destruction on a massive scale. And its consequences included foreign occupation, harsh reprisals, and the utter humiliation of the Qing Dynasty. The Boxer Rebellion marked the nadir of Manchu fortunes, from which the dynasty rallied only briefly before it was swept away by the Republican Revolution of 1911.

Small bands of men and women known in English as 'Boxers' (in Chinese they were called yihetuan: 'united in righteousness and harmony') made their appearance first in Shandong in the late 1890s. They acquired the name because of the elaborate martial arts rituals that allegedly made their members immune to bullets and capable of supernatural acts. In many ways, the Boxers were another of the many secret societies that have flourished in rural China since ancient times.

What lifted them out of obscurity was the general malaise of Chinese society at the close of the nineteeth century, brought on by the weak government and the growing foreign presence. The 'scramble for concessions' of 1897-8, in which the powers competed to partition China, created panic in the Court and fear among the officials elsewhere. On the ground, new inroads by missionaries and foreign businesses threathened the traditional social order and disrupted established patterns of trade. Drought across north China and a general breakdown of authority contributed to a popular feeling that disaster would befall unless the people rose up against their oppressors. The Boxers of Shandong, where there was a growing, generally unwelcome, German presence in the late 1890s, did exactly that, slaughtering hundreds of Christians and other Chinese believed to have connections with foreigners in a whirlwind of violence that startled the authorities and enraged the foreign community.

What transformed a peasant rebellion of a familiar if highly focused kind into something quite different was a decision by powerful figures at Court, including the Empress Dowager, to recruit the Boxers to the cause of the dynasty. By the summer of 1900, thousands of Boxer rebels had arrived in Beijing and Tianjin, where they attacked and killed hundreds of Chinese they branded ‘foreign slaves.’ They then cut the railway and telegraph lines between the two cities, creating panic among the capital’s foreign community, which was now isolated in the Legation Quarter and subject to regular attack.

On 21 June, the Court declared war on all powers in the hope of ridding China of her foreign tormentors once and for all. Decades of reform – sometimes sponsored by the Court, sometimes crushed by it – had failed to make China strong in the face of aggression. Perhaps violent rebellion would rid her of her enemies?

It did not. The siege of the Legations created outrage in the west of the kind generated by the military suppression of the Tiananmen Square Democracy Movement nearly 90 years later. It proved equally productive of myths and misunderstandings. For the roughly 1,000 foreigners present, it was a terrifying experience to be besieged in a quarter of a city where many of them had grown used to being treated with deference and respect. Boxer savagery outside Beijing, notably in Shanxi, included the murder of missionaries aswell as their children. With the Court behind them, there was no telling what the rebels might do were they to breach the Legation walls. Relief, in the form of foreign armies stationed off Tianjin, seemed so far away. The 2,300 Chinese Christians who sought refuge in the diplomatic quarter had even more to fear : the Boxers were bound to turn on ‘traitors’ first.

Yet the threat to the Legation was more apparent than real. The Court was divided over support for the rebels, generals were reluctant to mount a full-scale offensive against the diplomatic quarter, and reformist officials in the south refused to join the war. Practically the whole of southeast China was free of the Boxer menace, and outside Beijing’s control. To make matters worse for the Manchus, in August 1900 an eight-power expeditionary army, made up chiefly of troops from Japan, Russia, Britain, the US and France, battled its way into the capital and raised the siege. It was time to exact revenge.

Vengeance was two-fold. The expeditionary forces pillaged central Beijing with the kind of enthusiasm the Boxers had shown for the destruction of their enemies. Not even Hanlin Academy, the repository of the Qing Dynasty scholarship, just south of the British legation, was spared. Thousands of priceless books and documents were stolen or destroyed.

The occupation of Beijing by such powerful and savage armies was an enormous blow to Chinese self-confidence. China was exposed as ‘backward’ and ‘barbaric’, and foreigners as ‘modern’ and above all invincible. The gulf between China and the industrialized world was shown to be painfully large.

The episode was a particular disaster for the government, which having cast its lot with the rebels now faced nemesis at the hands of both foreign and domestic foes. The Court fled to the safety of Xian, Capital of Shaanxi, entrusting the unenviable task of negotiating a peace settlement with the invaders to Li Hongzhang (1823-1901)

This took the form of the Boxer protocol, the most vengeful treaty in the history of Sino-Western diplomacy. Its main stipulations were the punishment – by execution or orders to commit suicide – of officials deemed responsible for encouraging the Boxers; the stationing of foreign troops along the road from Beijing to Tianjin; the suspension of the examination system in Shandong as a means of punishing literati in the province; and a ban on arms imports. The sting in the protocol’s tail was a huge indemnity imposed on the Court both as a punishment and to compensate for foreign losses sustained during the rebellion.

The indemnity was a burden, secured against customs and other domestic revenues that the Qing government could not afford to bear. It contributed to the growing indebtedness and declining revenues and that weakened the central government and played a large part in its fall in 1911. Moreover, the debt was inherited by the new Republican government, adding to its financial woes at a time when civil wars and an inefficient bureaucracy deprived it of much needed cash. In 1908, the US agreed to return that part of the Boxer indemnity in excess of certified claims for actual losses. The surplus was used for educating Chinese in the US. China cancelled indemnity payments to Germany and Austria-Hungary in 1917 when it declared war on the two powers. In 1924, the US agreed to return the remaining portion of the Boxer indemnity, then amounting to US$12.5 million, for the development of education and cultural enterprises in China.

At the political level, the Boxers catastrophe marks a division between ‘old’ China and the ‘new’. It was the last truly large-scale traditional peasant rebellion to threaten the entire political order – a threat made more real by patronage from a Court desperate to resist foreign aggression and preserve its decrepit rule. Its failure was thus a failure of tradition.

Yet the Qing dynasty survived and went on to carry out a series of reforms that were a world away from the Boxer agenda. The powers also played a part in the Manchu’s post-Boxer revival. Each of the countries that made up the expeditionary army had its own agenda in China, despite an ability to make common cause in defending the Legations. Fear of the harm open rivalry might inflict on their respective positions encouraged them to accept the principles of the ‘Open Door Notes’ set out by the US in 1900. These spoke of the need to preserve China’s territorial and administrative integrity. Yet the disaffection of the southern provinces during the rebellion had shown how fragile this integrity was. And events during the next few years demonstrated that neither the central government nor the foreign powers were able to preserve it.

Thanks for that info about the Boxer Rebellion. It has given me a couple of ideas how to "diverge" from RL history in a believable way without going too overboard. :)

Looking forward to info on the Dowager Empress.

3. Enough debates, we've talked and talked and talked about what we should be doing, what we could change, this and that and the other thing. I say get this game started, Hrstrovokia. Make a IC thread already, and declair unilaterally what the rules are, ratify or don't ratify the economic panel, and have us start posting. If problems come up, we can post our oppinions on solutions, but if we continue trying to iron out all the problems before this game even begins, we'll be here debating pointlessly until August, and probubly 3/4 of the players will be long gone.



The Economic Panel has already been accepted as far as I'm concerned. I say we try and solve as many problems OOC before we begin, or face sluggish gameplay and endless arguments IC. And as you've said, an election declared Galveston Bay the winner. I'm skeptical of votes on NS, but if enough people took part and both sides can accept the outcome, I see no reason why it shouldnt stand.

I think it'd be far better to go with the flow, and whenever problems arise, we work it out. I think if we are allowed to start RP'ing this week or weekend, people will be more willing to stay on this, as we'll be able to start up our alternate history dreams and plans. :)

Well, whatever works. If we start today, I'll be able to monitor whats going on from the start and tomorrow, but are people ready to start playing?

Ok [/me cracks whip] .

nice summary of the Boxer Rebellion by the way... I am ready to start and looking forward to it

im ready

updated the economics thread so that its active
again

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=426220

created a military thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9108039#post9108039

because I have noticed the tendancy of nation staters to want to "crush their enemies, hear the lamentations of their women," etc...

Im ready to begin with cuba. Things will turn out diffrent this time!!!

As it can be a pain recognizing each of the participant countries during an RP, could I recommend that we always insert our country name in the Title field on each post as a way to clarify things?

sounds like a good idea

Is the game on?

I'm having trouble finding information on Persia's military capabilities. I Googled it and the first 3 pages are just about buying books and I hate to say it but I'm not THAT committed :P . Any help?

As ready as I'll ever be once I start looking in earnest at all the rebellions I'll have to put down. :-\

im ready too!

Parthini']I'm having trouble finding information on Persia's military capabilities. I Googled it and the first 3 pages are just about buying books and I hate to say it but I'm not THAT committed :P . Any help?

don't blame you for that... seriously though, it depends on how bad you need to develop one. a link to give you a starting place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iran#Before_the_First_World_War

essentially though, Persia is tech level 1, and has no modern army, just some guards of various types for various rulers, and tribal and city levys and militias... if you saw the movie "Four Feathers", you have an idea of what they look and fight like.

General rule of thumb... a society tech level 1 or better can keep about 3% of its population in military service full time, plus up to 10% of the population available as a levy en masse. Arming and equipping that will vary, but at tech level 1 figure most are infantry or horse cavalry with either primitive muskets or possibly imported rifles, plus traditional weapons like swords, lances, etc. Artillery will be essentially non existent for the most part.

Persia doesn't really get a lot of money to start playing with for a while yet.

By all means, let us commence forthwith.

Carolus R.
Nihil Sine Deo

I'm looking forward to this RP. I have high hopes for it. :)

hi i posted yesterday but not sure if any1 saw would it be ok to play as denmark (including iceland and greenland which were part of their empire) i have rped b4 in other forums cheers

Well I found the Encyclopedia Iranica and it's quite helpful. Apparently, the tribes in the south have more guns and soldiers than the pathetic musket-armed army of Persia. Plus there is also gun smuggling going on in the south. Perfect for a revolution :D

I will be canada

Hstrovokia, I'll need the info on the Dowager Empress before I can actually start RP'ing, as I need to know how or when to change leaders or have the Dowager Empress decide differently on particular things.

I'll be RPing the immigration of Jews into Israel at the moment, maybe some Jewish businessmen funding the Jews etc...., not much I can do at the moment.

I will be canada

its important to read the first post of the thread.. it tells you who has been claimed. In addition to the ones listed there, the US is claimed although now Spain is available. A few other peoples and/or nations have been claimed as well.

Nobody wants to be the Kurds? Just think of the impact an independent Kurdistan could have had.

Quick correction, I was in fact an Ottoman province until 1918, only then did I become British. So Yafor 2, I am in fact under your control and not Sarzonia's yet.

I am ready

One last question: Siam, what part of the peninsula are you representing? i only control the eastern part of it.

i need serious economic and military stats for Saudi arabia, i know the rl history and guidelines

One last question: Siam, what part of the peninsula are you representing? i only control the eastern part of it.
Siam (Thailand) was one of about a half-dozen or so independent non-European states in the Eastern Hemisphere. The others being Ethiopia, China, Japan, Korea, Persia, and the Ottoman Empire, unless I'm forgetting any.
Britain and France are currently competing for influence in the kingdom, and forcing the monarchy to cede border territories to each, but the competition has ensured that the Thais remain nominally independent.

Not to rush, but I think it's time to start soon. The people who start in War should find their army sizes and start. We have most, if not all of the kinks out of the mechanics. The only thing now is to find a few more stats and then we can start off. Personaly, I have a bit more to find (economic growth, military size, population distribution) but I would be ready to at least start. So to those who are involved, please finish up your research and let's go!

I'm going to need some assistance with learning the state of the Netherlands at 1900. I haven't been able to find anything relevant yet, and would appreciate the help from anyone.

main thing to know about the Netherlands is that it still has the Dutch East Indies, Dutch Guiana (now Surinam), and a couple of islands in the Caribbean (Antiqua)

and oil has been found in the Dutch East Indies, Royal Dutch (now called Shell Oil) has been established as a join UK/Dutch venture, and the Dutch are rich because of the extractive trade from the Dutch East Indies (spices, later oil as well).

information on the Dutch Navy can be found here....
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/dutch_navy.htm

the best information on the Dutch Army is usually found by looking up the Dutch East Indies campaign in 1942, and the invasion of Holland in 1940. I would simply adjust downward everything to about 75% of those numbers in 1900 (and unit types as well, as obviously there aren't any fighter squadrons or flak units yet) and use that as a basis.

population figures can be found here
http://www.nidi.knaw.nl/en/dematlas/

excellent economic information
http://www.ggdc.net/pub/gd39.pdf#search='Dutch%20economy%201900'

good general information
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=35863

if anyone isn't Venezula I'd like to take that one.

As i have a relativly small part up until around 1916 then i can wait a bit for the stats. and try to find out as much as i can around 1938 when i play my part in oil, and war.

Im somewhat ready..

(I need info!)

Siam (Thailand) was one of about a half-dozen or so independent non-European states in the Eastern Hemisphere. The others being Ethiopia, China, Japan, Korea, Persia, and the Ottoman Empire, unless I'm forgetting any.
Britain and France are currently competing for influence in the kingdom, and forcing the monarchy to cede border territories to each, but the competition has ensured that the Thais remain nominally independent.
Ha, ok. for some reason i thought of Risk's Siam.

Empress Dowager

Even when cloaked in elaborate imperial finery - as was the case in the most turn-of-the-century depictions of her - the Empress Dowager presented an austere image. It was worthy of a woman who dominated Court life for almost half a century and the affairs of her nation for most of its final, troubled years as a monarchy. The Manchu Qing Dynasty she served, sometimes by sponsoring reform, sometimes by crushing it, and in 1900 by backing the violent Boxer Rebellion, survived her by a mere three years.

In the end, her capricious, domineering, conservative leadership was regarded by opponents as symptomatic of all that was wrong with Manchu rule and a principal reason for overthrowing it. Both at the time and since Ci Xi attracted an almost universally 'bad press'. Her perceived misdeeds have contributed to a feeling in China - reinforced by the brief supremacy of Jiang Qing in the Communist period - that women are best kept out of high politics.

The extent to which the Empress Dowager's poor reputation is justified must be determined in the light of what she had to contend with and what she sought to achieve. Her task was to preserve Manch rule amid a ferment of change generated by imperial decay, foreign aggression and growing anti-manchu, pro-Chinese feeling. In the sense that dynasty outlasted her, Ci Xi's political career might be a judged success. In the sense that through a mixture of foolishness, manipulation, corruption and reaction she managed to defy change until, too late, she was forced to comply with it before it swept her and her ruling house into oblivion, she emerges as a flawed, tragic figure, reminiscent of the last rulers of European monarchies in the twentieth century. More than skills and skulduggery at Court were required to ensure the survival of a system of government which had changed little over the previous 2,000 years.

Ci Xi entered the Court as a concubine of Xiang Feng Emperor [ruled 1851-62]. She bore his only surviving son who became Tong Zhi Emperor [ruled 1864-74] and for whom she served as co-regent. When he died in 1874, she secured the succession of her nephew, Guangxu. This was a violation of the laws of imperial succession which stipulated that power should pass to the next generation. In fact, power remained in her hands and those of her allies in a Court vexed by internal rebellions, calls for reform and growing foreign aggression. Throughtout her adult life, Ci Xi presided over a shrinking empire that was also an unstable one.

[More to follow...]

economic ratings given for a lot of nations

see below

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9085119&postcount=4

Hmm... this gives me an idea.

Would it be a good idea / plan if I chose to RP the "point of divergence" in 1874, where Emperor Tong Zhi (Dowager Empress's son) did not die like he actually did in RL. He managed to survive, and have an heir by 1880, then pass on his Emperor-ship to his son in 1895 - 1900, thus giving me a realistic and nearly historical ruler of China by the start of the 1900 timeline.

Would this work?

It's up to you but I recommend we stick with the objective set forth by Hrstrovokia that we start RPing from 1900. My 2 cents.

Maybe RP a heretofore unreported illegitimate son that rises up and deposes the Empress? At least that would be post 1900... Or I could just be blathering... ;)

Hmm... this gives me an idea.

Would it be a good idea / plan if I chose to RP the "point of divergence" in 1874, where Emperor Tong Zhi (Dowager Empress's son) did not die like he actually did in RL. He managed to survive, and have an heir by 1880, then pass on his Emperor-ship to his son in 1895 - 1900, thus giving me a realistic and nearly historical ruler of China by the start of the 1900 timeline.

Would this work?
I agree with Mithromir, and I'll add that China has a long tradition known as the "Mandate of Heaven," or Tian Ming. I'm sure you've heard of it. It justifies revolution against any tyrannical or corrupt dynasty, and, among other things, means that the need for a "legitimate" heir is not as important as it would be in Europe. The founder of the great Han dynasty, after all, was a simple postman.

Do one of you know how large part of the british military were Indians and how large the populatian was?

I would suggest that the simplest solution is that Prince Tuan has her executed when she refuses to let the Imperial Army help the Boxers early during the rebellion and then he takes power and gives the Boxers artillery (which he wanted to do)... the seige of Peking becomes a massacre very quickly after that if this occurs

it was the greatest fear of the defenders during the seige, that the Chinese Army would bring up some artillery

Just occured to me that we still do not have a 'second-in-command' =/ its not the worst job in the world, c'mon somebody bite the bullet on this one and take one for the team =]

Just occured to me that we still do not have a 'second-in-command' =/ its not the worst job in the world, c'mon somebody bite the bullet on this one and take one for the team =]
Musta missed this one.... please translate into normal English :p

(also, I noticed that Generic Empire is not on the list, he requested to be USA no? Or has something changed?)

Still Requesting to be Venezueala

Just occured to me that we still do not have a 'second-in-command' =/ its not the worst job in the world, c'mon somebody bite the bullet on this one and take one for the team =]
I nominated Sharina, who has since indicated to me that he'd be willing to take the position.

Musta missed this one.... please translate into normal English :p

(also, I noticed that Generic Empire is not on the list, he requested to be USA no? Or has something changed?)

Generic Empire bowed out a few pages back

I would be willing to be the second in command, but since I am playing a major power that might be a conflict of interest. However, if needed, I would pass the US to Crimson Sith and assist with moderation instead

I'd have no problem with being second in command. Around this time, I'm also pathetic and not even worth mentioning, so I'd be perfect :p

I agree with Mithromir, and I'll add that China has a long tradition known as the "Mandate of Heaven," or Tian Ming. I'm sure you've heard of it. It justifies revolution against any tyrannical or corrupt dynasty, and, among other things, means that the need for a "legitimate" heir is not as important as it would be in Europe. The founder of the great Han dynasty, after all, was a simple postman.

I would suggest that the simplest solution is that Prince Tuan has her executed when she refuses to let the Imperial Army help the Boxers early during the rebellion and then he takes power and gives the Boxers artillery (which he wanted to do)... the seige of Peking becomes a massacre very quickly after that if this occurs

it was the greatest fear of the defenders during the seige, that the Chinese Army would bring up some artillery


Hmm... thanks for your feedback, guys. So here's the revised history thing.

1898: Prince Tuan starts to distance himself from the Dowager Empress.

1899: Prince Tuan starts planning to overthrow Dowager Empress, as he believes that time of change is necessary to upgrade China to a modern civilization.

1900: The Dowager Empress's refusal to commit the Imperial Army to suppress the foreigners and also refuses to have actual Chinese military help the Boxer Rebellion gives Prince Tuan the perfect excuse to depose the Empress.

Then immediately upon the depose of the Empress, Prince Tuan declares that the Imperial Army will assist the Boxer Rebellion and provide the necessary artillery to the "Siege of Peking" scenario, ensuing victory for China. The victory at Peking gives Prince Tuan sufficient prestige and support to create a new dynasty in China, and Prince Tuan declares himself Emperor.


Thus starts the "point-of-divergence" where my Alternate History China can officially begin.

---------------------------

Is this a more feasible and believable scenario, considering the rules and a 1900 start-date?

By the way, any good recommendations for a good dynasty name for the one that Prince Tuan will found?

I think it is possible. Perhaps the Prince can convince others that the Empress wouldn't give artillery support because she had secretly made a pact with the West to cause the rebellion to fail. He then usurps power and gives artillery support. His dynasty is simply the Tuan dynasty. Or perhaps it is the Tian dynasty, for "heavenly" or something like that.

By the way, any good recommendations for a good dynasty name for the one that Prince Tuan will found?
The Chinese never named their dynasties after their actual families. The Han dynasty was ruled by the Liu family, for instance, while the Tang was governed by the Li. "Tian" (Wade-Giles "T'ien") is a good suggestion, and I might also add "Cheng/Ch'eng" (Sincerity, Openness), "Zheng/Cheng" (Integrity, Legitimacy), "Shang" (Upwards, Supreme), "Guo/Kuo" (National), or "Qian/Ch'ien" (Forwards) as suitable for a reform-minded, modernizing dynasty.
Emperors also took "temple names" upon their accession, consisting of a compound word often ending in "di" (sovereign) or "zong" (ancestor), or in the case of a dynastic founder "zu" (originator). I might suggest "Guozu/Kuo-tsu" (Father of the Nation) as a good name for your alternate Prince Tuan.

If nobody objects, I'll accept Sharina [with 1 nomination!] unless he doesnt want to do it. Galveston, you can still hang on to your US position. Must update list!

I've got no problems with Sharina being 2-in-C, as long as he's crazy enough to still want to do it!

Thanks so much Vas Pokhoronim! That is extremely helpful for me, and I think I have a good rough sketch of where and what to start with China. The history will be as follows...

-------------------------------------------------------

1898: Prince Tuan gains more influence within the Imperial circles, and begins to notice that the Dowager Empress's ideology isn't in China's best interests. Tuan distances himself from the Empress, and begins to gather leadership / military support for himself.

1899: Prince Tuan begins to plot for ways to get rid of the Dowager Empress and instill himself as China's leader. He begins to gather the support of the Chinese populace by engaging in public relations such as making appearances at academies, town squares, etc.

1900: The Boxer Rebellion erupts, and the Dowager Empress's decision not to send in artillery to Peking gives Prince Tuan the perfect excuse to depose her. He does so, and Peking recieves the necessary artillery. The foreign powers in Peking (soldiers, ambassadors, merchants, etc.) are either killed or imprisoned.

Prince Tuan founds a new dynasty, and thanks to his public appearances, the populace supports him more solidly than otherwise, as people would believe that Prince Tuan is an honorable ruler and one who cares about the Chinese people rather than abusing power and authority.

Afterwards, I'll be ready to do diplomacy, war, etc. with Britain (Sarzonia), USA (Galveston Bay), etc. regarding the consquences of the Chinese victory at Peking.

Then we pass into year 1901 and onwards.

-------------------------------------------------------

Assuming that there are no complaints or huge discrepancies in this initial history, I can try to start RP work on it this weekend or next week, assuming Hrstovokia gives the green light for it and we can all go ahead with our first "moves" in 1900.

I have no problem with it either assuming Sharina doesn't object. If Sharina does object, I'm always willing ;)

Sanctaphrax if you still want to do it we could have a further back up team of mods to support Sharina and Hrstrovokia, i'm sure there'll be lots of work to go around...

I'm ready whenever.

Sanctaphrax if you still want to do it we could have a further back up team of mods to support Sharina and Hrstrovokia, i'm sure there'll be lots of work to go around...

I wouldn't mind lending a hand wherever its needed.

Not to sound like I'm rushing or anything, but when will this finally start?

I'll sign up as Chile, por favor. If this has Sanctaphrax and Sharina it has to be good.

USA

In the Boxer Rebellion, it kind of depends what happens to the diplomatic personnel in Beijing when the Foreign Quarter falls. If there is a massacre, well the Westerners and the Japanese are going to get pretty vengeful and the war could last a while. If captured and ransomed or exchanged, then probably the US and British are going to be more restrained, the Russians and Japanese less so, and the Germans, Austrians, French and Italians somewhere in the middle.

A massacre by the way would cost the US one future President. Herbert Hoover was one of the heros of the story, his efforts saved a lot of Chinese Christians from starvation. Although I may have him die anyway when the Legation falls.

I'll sign up as Chile, por favor. If this has Sanctaphrax and Sharina it has to be good.
Thanks, nice to see you here ;)

And a great time it is to be Chile in 1900! We reign supreme in Andean South America after kicking Bolivian and Peruvian butt in the late 1800's. Got a parlimentary democracy established in 1891. With electrification underway worldwide I can mine copper and watch the money roll in!

as belgium do i have those large african provinces such as south africa and congo?

A massacre by the way would cost the US one future President. Herbert Hoover was one of the heros of the story, his efforts saved a lot of Chinese Christians from starvation. Although I may have him die anyway when the Legation falls


Thos present at the siege of the Peking Legations and in the relief force include:

Captain Lewis Halliday, Britsih (future full General and VC holder, once the oldest holder in the world)
Sir Edward Seymour, British (later Admiral-Of-The-Fleet)
Henry Hoover, American (as you said future president and was an exceptional engineer at the time)
Seymour's Chief of Staff Captain John Jellicoe, British (Later to lead the British force at the Battle of Jutland)
Commander David Beatty, British (Future Commander of the Grand Fleet)
Lieutenant Roger Keyes, British (Commander of Zeebrugge raind in1918 and Chief of Combined Operations in WWII)
Private Dan Daly, American (Crack Sniper, 2 times Medal of Honour Winner, WWI sergeant who famously shouted "Come on you bastards - do you want to live forever?" when leading an attack into German machine guns at Bellau Wood)


So yes the West is certainly in trouble if theres a defeat and a massacre at Peking in 1900.

(Sorry for the British bias on the above list, it's where my limited experience lies)

as belgium do i have those large african provinces such as south africa and congo?

You will certainly begin owning any empire territories including the Congo, but wether you keep them through war and revolution etc. depends on amny factors. The only property I can see in 1900 is Belgian Congo (This was not a colony as it was not state owned it was private property of King Leopold and he commited mass cruelty to the local people [he may have killed up to 22 million people by some estimates] and was forced to sell it to the state in 1908 for the sum of 150 million Belgian Francs to help his ailing finances).

alright thanks for the info

Well, umm, it seems all the kinks are out. Not to be rude but can we start?

I'm ready when you guys are. I appreciate that a number of you are willing to help out administration wise, thanks very much. I think that we should wait and see if everybody else is ready; I know some of you are still doing research and such and I think I still have to finish an essay or something on the Empress Dowager for Sharina.

I'm ready if you guys are. I think they economic and historical data is about finished as well, though i'm not so sure as to Sharina's complete destruction of the Peking garrison as this will surely lead to international outcry and an immenent invasion. Maybe better to simply capture and ransom off the troops to keep something of a moral high ground. Still only my opinions though.

where is the IC?

It's not been started yet but I expect it will be up shortly. A few discussions about IC actions have been made on this thread but the actual RP has yet to begin.

This may have already been addressed, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating a question, but are the IC events going to take place in a single massive thread, or will there be different threads for different things (i.e. a Boer War thread for myself and Sarzonia, a Boxer Rebellion thread for those invovled, etc)?

Is canada taken?

Yes I believe Canada is taken.

Thos present at the siege of the Peking Legations and in the relief force include:

Captain Lewis Halliday, Britsih (future full General and VC holder, once the oldest holder in the world)
Sir Edward Seymour, British (later Admiral-Of-The-Fleet)
Henry Hoover, American (as you said future president and was an exceptional engineer at the time)
Seymour's Chief of Staff Captain John Jellicoe, British (Later to lead the British force at the Battle of Jutland)
Commander David Beatty, British (Future Commander of the Grand Fleet)
Lieutenant Roger Keyes, British (Commander of Zeebrugge raind in1918 and Chief of Combined Operations in WWII)
Private Dan Daly, American (Crack Sniper, 2 times Medal of Honour Winner, WWI sergeant who famously shouted "Come on you bastards - do you want to live forever?" when leading an attack into German machine guns at Bellau Wood)


So yes the West is certainly in trouble if theres a defeat and a massacre at Peking in 1900.

(Sorry for the British bias on the above list, it's where my limited experience lies)

Thanks for the info, LR and GB.

This has given me an idea what to do with these guys. I think I'll imprison all these guys, and either kill or "POW" the soldiers defending these people in the Foreign Quarter. Then afterwards, my Chinese can do the following...

1. Seize their guns and study how to produce better guns.
2. Perhaps put Herbert Hoover to work, make him engineer stuff in exchange for freedom.
3. Have these important foreigners teach China things in exchange for freedom. Or I could ransom them but keep Herbert Hoover and a couple of others who has much needed "expertise".

Stuff like that... If its too farfetched or crazy, I'm perfectly willing to change it around and such.

I'm not sure what month the siege ended, but remember, there are 7 days in a week, and IMHO that's plenty of time to think of what to do or get research. I say get it started tommorow (Sunday's a good even day) and Sharina can decide what to do and act on it hopefully before Saturday :p

Sorry, I'm just really excited to get this thing started.

Galveston Bay here.... Herbert Hoover was a civil engineer... if you need a damn built, he is your man. However he wasn't a very good President (although better than Calvin Cooledge), so tragically a shell will end his promising career. He wasn't all that notable before the seige, so his death isn't going to trigger any more of a reaction than the seizure of the American embassy will.

Most of the British figures listed earlier were in the Relief Expedition, which would not be adversely affected by the fall of the Foreign Legations. We would have a situation a lot like the Relief Expedition to Khartoum when Gordon was killed. Essentially the British pulled back when news of his death reached them. In this case the expedition would probably pull back to the coast and wait for instructions and or major reinforcements to carry out a punative expedition.

I've got no problems with a mass slaughter GB! I forgot to make the distinction between those beseiged and those in the relief paty, sorry.

Anyway for those that are interested I have made a post with the foreign possessions of nations listed Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9136878#post9136878) but it no doubt contains some errors and if you spot any feel free to TG me and i'll change it. It should form a good starting point for any further research though.

When do we start? and does someone know how large part of the british army was indian?

From what little research I can find I think the Indian constituents of the British army in 1900 were as follows. Fortunately they were reorganised in 1903 into the following numerical system. Where known the old numbers follow the regiment's title in bold (in conventional army formatie. Battalion/Regiment/Where Raised).

Support Units (I have no idea of their sizes)
The Supply and Transport Corps (India)
The Army Hospital Corps (India)
The Army Bearer Corps (India)
The Indian Medical Department
The Army Remount Department (India)
The Army Veterinary Department (India)
The Indian Ordnance Department
The Army Clothing Department (India)

Infantry Units
[Pioneer units listed here are combat pioneer regiments not conventional sappers and miners, they were often equipped with mountain artillery pieces]
1st Brahmans 4/1 Punjab
2nd Queen Victoria's Own Rajput Light Infantry 1/7 Rajput
3rd Brahmans
4th Prince Albert Victor's Rajputs 2/7 Rajput
5th Light Infantry
6th Jat Light Infantry 1/9 Jat
7th Duke of Connaught's Own Rajputs 3/7 Rajput
8th Rajputs 4/7 Rajput
9th Bhopal Infantry 4/16 Punjab
10th Jats 3/9 Jat
11th Rajputs 5/7 Rajput
12th Pioneers (Khelat-i-Gilzie Regiment) 2/2 Bombay Pioneers
13th Rajputs (The Shekhawati Regt) 10/6 Rajputana Rif
14th King George's Own Ferozepore Sikhs 1/11 Sikh
15th Ludhiana Sikhs 2/11 Sikh
16th Rajputs (The Lucknow Regiment) 10/7 Rajput
17th The Loyal Regiment
18th Infantry 4/9 Jat
19th Punjabis 1/14 Punjab
20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Punjab Infantry 2/14 Punjab
21st Punjabis 10/14 Punjab
22th Punjabis 3/14 Punjab
23rd Sikh Pioneers 1/3 Sikh Pioneers
24th Punjabis 4/14 Punjab
25th Punjabis 1/15 Punjab
26th Punjabis 2/15 Punjab
27th Punjabis 3/15 Punjab
28th Punjabis 4/15 Punjab
29th Punjabis 10/15 Punjab
30th Punjabis 1/16 Punjab
31st Punjabis 2/16 Punjab
32nd Sikh Pioneers 2/3 Sikh Pioneers
33rd Punjabis 3/16 Punjab
34th Sikh Pioneers 3/3 Sikh Pioneers
35th Sikhs 10/11 Sikh
36th Sikhs 4/11 Sikh
37th Dogras 1/17 Dogra
38th Dogras 2/17 Dogra
39th Garhwal Rifles 1/18 R Garhwal Rif
40th Pathans 5/14 Punjab
41st Dogras 3/17 Dogra
42nd Deoli Regiment
43rd Erinpura Regiment
44th Mharwara Regiment
45th Rattray's Sikhs 3/11 Sikh
46th Punjabis

Sappers and Miners

1st King George's Own Sappers and Miners Queen's Own Madras Sappers and Miners
2nd Queen Victoria's Own Sappers and Miners The Corps of Bengal Sappers and Miners
3rd Sappers and Miners Corps of Bombay Sappers and Miners

Cavalry Units

Governor General's Bodyguard
Governor's Bodyguard, Madras
Governor's Bodyguard, Bombay
Governor's Bodyguard, Bengal
1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse) 1st
2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse) 2nd
3rd Skinner's Horse 1st
4th Cavalry 2nd
5th Cavalry 3rd
6th King Edward's Own Cavalry 18th
7th Hariana Lancers 18th
8th Cavalry 3rd
9th Hodson's Horse 4th
10th Duke of Cambridge's Own Lancers (Hodson's Horse) 4th
11th King Edward's Own Lancers (Probyn's Horse) 5th
12th Cavalry 5th
13th Duke of Connaught's Lancers (Watson's Horse) 6th
14th Murray's Jat Lancers 20th
15th Lancers (Cureton's Multanis) 20th
16th Cavalry 6th
17th Cavalry 15th
18th King George's Own Lancers 19th
19th Lancers (Fane's Horse) 19th
20th Deccan Horse 9th
21st Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry (Frontier Force) 11th
22nd Sam Browne's Cavalry (Frontier Force) 12th
23rd Cavalry (Frontier Force) 11th
25th Cavalry (Frontier Force) 12th
26th King George's Own Light Cavalry 8th
27th Light Cavalry 16th
28th Light Cavalry 7th
29th Lancers (Deccan Horse) 9th
30th Lancers (Gordon's Horse) 8th
31st Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers 13th
32nd Lancers 13th
33rd The Queen Victoria's Own Light Cavalry 17th
34th Prince Albert Victor's Own Poona Horse 17th
35th Scinde Horse 14th
36th Jacob's Horse 14th
37th Lancers (Baluch Horse) 15th
38th King George's Own Central India Horse 21st
39th King George's Own Central India Horse 21st

SUMMARY
7 supply departments
46 Infantry Regiments
3 Sapper and Miner Corps
44 Cavalry Regiments

TOTAL IN INDIAN ARMY PAY 1900: 323,000 men


Of course these would be stationed around the world and not all located in India at the time. Indian Independence was not very popular at the time and many Indians and especially the soldiers felt loyalty towards Britain, indeed they sent 1.3 million soldiers into WWI and it wasn't until the Rowlatt act of 1919 that things began to change. Though of course this is alternative history and anything could happen. Hope this helps.

Seeing as you all seem to have so much fun doing this, here's another challenge. Find out for me what guns the Czechs were using during the start of the century, as thats what I'll have.

it may be possible that wiki hates me so can someone please inform me if they have any information on the Belgian Military in 1900?

I might post a thread to start this off (about reforms in AH) later today or maybe tomorrow unless anyone has strong objections to it.

Oh and I'm having trouble finding names of AH's big leaders besides Francis Joseph and Franz Ferdinand(sp?) If anyone can help me out w/ that it would be apprecated. Otherwise I'll just make them up if neccessary.



EDIT: What endings should we add to these threads? (Earth 1900) perhaps?

we are not going to use invision or some other free board?

we are not going to use invision or some other free board?

I think it was agreed by a rough poll a few pages back that it should all be kept here so that the research and RP is together. I could be wrong though...

I might post a thread to start this off (about reforms in AH) later today or maybe tomorrow unless anyone has strong objections to it.

I think it should be Ok as an introductory post. Hrstrovokia and the mod team should know more about start dates etc.



Oh and I'll see if I can find any research for you all.

Seeing as you all seem to have so much fun doing this, here's another challenge. Find out for me what guns the Czechs were using during the start of the century, as thats what I'll have.

I am pretty sure Brno made a Czech Kar 98, but i can't tell you what year they made it in, so it could be anytime between 1898 and 1950.

Ottoman Empire... If no one has it...
If they do then... I'll take whatever

*Edit: Reads 1st page...
ILL BE the Hawai'ian Empire until the US comes

Hawaii, I'm pretty sure, has been occupied by the U.S. for like two years or so already. Not just occupied as in they've got troops there, but officially annexed. Hawaii wouldn't achieve statehood until 1950, though.

Can i play as the Basques
can i?

What is now the Czech republic was part of Austria-Hungary in 1900. The Skoda works produced weapons. But there wasn't an armed rebellion against Austria. Czechoslovakia came into being in 1918 after the defeat of Austria as part of the Central Powers in WWI.

I need help with finding Cuban military stuff. I mean they had to use more than picks and outdated guns.

I need help with finding Cuban military stuff. I mean they had to use more than picks and outdated guns.

look up the Spanish American War ... there is a website (the link isn't readily available to me at the moment) that gives the order of battle for US and Cuban rebel forces, as well as Spanish forces in Cuba in 1898.... extropolate from that based on the fact that the US military is occupying the island, maintaining order, most of the rebels went home after the war, the island is a mess economically because of rather severe Spanish measures taken from 1890 - 1898, and the US controls your ports. Most of the rebel arms were supplied covertly by American sympathizers pre war.

How bout Denmark... Egypt... SOMETHING!!!

Thank you for the info

can anyone help me find military for the saudi tribes or the revolution of 1916. just a simple clue of what they might have had.

can someone help me with info because i cant find anything about miliatry...

I think someone was after Egyptian military data:

Composition
By 1891, there were 19 battalions of infantry (6Sudanese and 1 from originally Italian askaris); 10 squadrons of cavalry (plus several iregular units); 6 batteries of artillery (1horse) and 8 companies of Camel Corps (4 Egyptian, 4 Sudanese).

Infantry
Each Infantry battalion consisted of six companies, each of approximately 150 men. The Camel Corps operated in independent companies of about 150 men each.

Cavalry
The cavalry was divided into squadrons of 100 men each. The irregular cavalry accompanying Arabi would have been split into warbands of no set size.

Artillery

Egyptian artillery used both mules and camels in each battery - mules being used for rocky or hilly country; camels for desert. Horse artillery obviously used horses. In the early 1880's, the artillery used 7-pdr mountain guns; 9- and 14-pdr Krupp breechloaders; and 14-pdr muzzle-loading brass howitzers. When the British standardised the Egyptian army, the main field gun became the 6.5cm Krupp. From 1897, these were gradually replaced by Maxim-Nordenfelt 75mm quick-firers. Multi-barrelled Gardner and Nordenfelt machine guns were used from 1896; Maxims from 1897.

USA

Boxer Rebellion IC thread posted here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9145305#post9145305

Massive Reforms Announced! Everyone come and comment!


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9146616#post9146616

Vietnam Indpendence Movement Forms! read all abut it!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9146827#post9146827

the source for all belgian news for the rp!
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9147049#post9147049

Boer War enters its second year! Read all about it!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9147093#post9147093

The players for Germany and Portugal may want to check it out, if only because it's a war bordering on some of your African holdings.

can anyone find belgian military numbers because i cant.

Can I please be Denmark or Anadorra?!

Can I take Australia? and I would very much apreciate any info on pop/military of Australia or any sites that could lead me to this info.

there is no info on the belgian armys numbers that ive found and ive gone to atleast 30 websites...can i make up a number? if i can what would be a reasonable population the current is 10,364,388 so i figure around 5,182,194 which is exactly half....if anyone can offer a percentage to use for military numbers please do because i cant find ANY info

use my nations news if necessary... http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9147990#post9147990

bump?

there is no info on the belgian armys numbers that ive found and ive gone to atleast 30 websites...can i make up a number? if i can what would be a reasonable population the current is 10,364,388 so i figure around 5,182,194 which is exactly half....if anyone can offer a percentage to use for military numbers please do because i cant find ANY info

use my nations news if necessary... http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9147990#post9147990


in peacetime, figure about 5% of your pop is your military
wartime that can go up. but otherwise it will drain your economy.

Rebellious Tribes Attack Persian Military Camp!
Gun Smuggling Blamed

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9149795#post9149795

Korean Reforms
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9150938#post9150938

in peacetime, figure about 5% of your pop is your military
wartime that can go up. but otherwise it will drain your economy.
thank you i updated my news to incorporate a reorganization of the military here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread...990#post9147990)

Have we started?

Have we started?

Apparently so, though I didn't know anything of it, seems more of a spontaneous posting of initial threads though. I don't know...

Any one else know if we started or what?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=428748

News is located at this thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=428748

News is located at this thread.
President Federico Errázuriz has accepted the proposed border dispute recitfication with Argentina. Details proposed to be finalized at a summit of Foreign Ministers in LaPaz, Bolivia.

yay im new Zealand!!! thanx.. expect a thread relating soon

Can I take Australia? and I would very much apreciate any info on pop/military of Australia or any sites that could lead me to this info.

I'm assuming I have it?

uhhh safehaven Ive assumed youve typed in Australian history on Google lol :p

uhhh safehaven Ive assumed youve typed in Australian history on Google lol :p

Lol, ya, but any extra help never hurts, from what i've gathered pop is about 4 million. Haven't found military but thats not improtant just yet.

So this is kind of naive, but how are we handling uncontested invasions? Do I have find somebody to RP the other side?

someone needs to rp resistance

WTF? I thought we were all going to agree on a start date. Seems not then. As my amigo Vas Pokhoronim has wisely suggested, I'll set about compiling the stories on one easy-to-find reference thread and start checking things out. Well, no turning back now - Good Luck folks!

Me too, ah well no point in going back now. I may as well follow the general trend and publish an Irish proclamation of Independance (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=428908) to get the abll rolling on guerrilla war there.

in that spirit my post rises the cry for the cause of the stateless peoples of europe! Macedonian Nationalism (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9157814#post9157814)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=428721

All links should go in here.

Are we still following the 1 week=1 year rule so that in 1 week from yesterday it will be 1901? I'm not sure as I don't think everyone knows that we've started.

Could I be Lithuania? Or is it too late?

I think it should still be OK we have yet to really start so there's still time for posting an initial thread. Just do some research into your country at the time and come up with a basic plan for it's future and work around that.

I just came back from a several day absence from NS due to RL stuff.

I take it we've started already? Could someone let me know of any of these initial RP's I should be involved in other than the Boxer Rebellion RP that GB posted up?

I went ahead and posted my initial start-up here...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9163223#post9163223

I'd like feedback on whether my "point of divergence" is plausible or not. :)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=429058

I started a minor rebellion against Russia as Lithuania.

I went ahead and posted my initial start-up here...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9163223#post9163223

I'd like feedback on whether my "point of divergence" is plausible or not. :)
idk about plausible but it was a good read you sucked me in and i wish you had put more detail into 1899

idk about plausible but it was a good read you sucked me in and i wish you had put more detail into 1899

Heh. Once 1900 gets underway and 1901, 1902, and so on, it'll get much more interesting. 1899 was pretty much an "extension" of 1898 in my Alternate China History, or in other words, a filler between 1898 and 1900.

I would have liked to have started the game on Monday next, that way we would get a simply Mon-Sun year instead of Wednesday etc but it doesnt matter that much anyway. Most likely not everybody knows the game has started, so im just going to remind them all.

I would have liked to have started the game on Monday next, that way we would get a simply Mon-Sun year instead of Wednesday etc but it doesnt matter that much anyway. Most likely not everybody knows the game has started, so im just going to remind them all.

I second the motion to hold a "Game-Year" to run from Monday to Sunday. However, for this particular year, 1900, I propose that we run it from right now until this Sunday, and then start 1901 this Monday on July 4th.

That way, the early-starters still have some room to RP around, while not penalizing the late-comers much. You can catch up 1 year easily, especially in 1 full week of RP.

In other words....

1900: Starts now, ends Sunday July 3rd.

1901: Begins Monday July 4th and ends Sunday July 11th.

1902 and onwards: Monday thru Sunday timescale starting July 11th / 12th.


Do you agree, guys?

Indeed, sounds good to me, a mon-sun week is easier to work around and easier to remember when the year changes.

I have to agree. Mon-Sun would be the most convinient.

For refrence purposes:

Mon: Jan-Feb
Tues: Feb-March
Wed: April-May
Thurs: June-July
Fri: Aug-Sept
Sat: Oct-Nov
Sunday: Nov-Dec

sounds good, i was about to ask about that, thats taken a load off my mind

We could probably do with some sort of tag for thread names so that it's easier to distinguish between our earth threads and others at a glance, something like [E20], [E1900], [Alt20] or whatever. Obviously it's not going to help the first threads but will avoid confusion in the future. Any ideas or am I going crazy again?

well i think it should be [EC20] meaning Earth 20th Century cos E20 makes it look like its Earth 20 and E1900 will only be useful in 1900 once were in like 1974 E1900 won't work, but yeah good idea for organising teh tags

I agree with Sharina. LR, I think we are going with E20 although Alt20 sounds good but sort of like an indie rock band.

was Germany Prussia in 1900, i was explained this by a teacher a while back, but it just ended up confusing me even more, it is a stupid question so feel free to rip the piss

I'd rather we do this on a private forum so its easier to track.

was Germany Prussia in 1900, i was explained this by a teacher a while back, but it just ended up confusing me even more, it is a stupid question so feel free to rip the piss

The various German states unified in 1871 under Otto von Bismarck and Kasier Wilhelm. Prussia is one of the larger states making up the empire.

I agree with Sharina. LR, I think we are going with E20 although Alt20 sounds good but sort of like an indie rock band.

I must voice my opinion on that tag. E20 would make people think its Earth 20, like there's Earth 13.75 or Earth 5, 6, 7, etc. So I propose the following tag....

"Earth 1900 - 2000"

That would clearly show which Earth it is, and the Earth Series (Earth I, II, III, IV, V, etc.) haven't reached the 100'th mark, much less the 30th mark so there should be no confusion whatsoever.

I'd rather we do this on a private forum so its easier to track.

seconded

I'd rather we do this on a private forum so its easier to track.

I must disagree with this proposal. I've been through this with a couple other Earth's, so I speak from experience.

Moving the RP'ing and such to off-site or private forums *WILL* kill the Earth being RP'ed. This is because of four reasons.

1. RP's at off-site or private forums means there won't be RP's in I.I. for newcomers to read and get interested in our Earth.

2. If there are no newcomers or old-timers reading Earth 1900 - 2000 RP's at I.I. or NS forums, there will be no fresh / new blood to replace players who quit, go inactive, or get DEAT'ed.

3. If we keep our RP's in I.I. and NS forums, we will be able to get far more feedback and generate far more interest than on private forums. This is a must for our Earth 1900 - 2000 universe to continue and improve quality of RP'ing.

4. Some people have had difficulty getting to, using, registering, and posting on off-site and private forums. However, here at I.I. or NS forums, we don't need to go through all the registration, bug-fixing, etc. that we would be responible for in off-site forums.



There is a very simple solution to the organizing problem that some of you have expressed.

Create a single "catalog" thread that will have links to EVERY ongoing Earth V RP, and categorize them into several goups... peace RP's, economy RP's, war RP's, research RP's, etc. Thus any Earth 1900 - 2000 member can check all ongoing RP's that concern or involve them at a single glance. Easy.

Problem solved.

snip .

Galveston Bay here, what he said, and for all the same reasons

Pleaze add this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9146827#post9146827) thread to the list of links in the first page. Its the Vietnamese independence movment.

Belgium alliance proposal to Luxembourg (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=429470)

Polish News and Events (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9176792#post9176792)

Heres my thread..

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=429491

O and Britian(Sarzonia) I'd like to talk to you.

here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9178767#post9178767) is my thread.

here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9179278#post9179278) is the Arab underground news, a set of bi-monthly newsletters which may be added by any non-aligned arab nation.
e.g. palestine, yemen, saudi arabia, U.A.E.......

economic ratings for New Zealand and Australia given in the economics thread