NationStates Jolt Archive

It's Cuba's fault anyway, it shouldn't be so small...!
You hear that Philanchez? According to the Englishman you're small.

Oh, I wanna see this, alright.

You hear that Philanchez? According to the Englishman you're small.

Woah, it was made in jest! I'm not going out of my way to insult anyone. Besides England's not much bigger. :)

Woah, it was made in jest! I'm not going out of my way to insult anyone. Besides England's not much bigger. :)
Sorry. I just like making fun of you. It's because I'm evil.

Grrrr. You evil man!

I blame communism, the root of all evil! ;)

VERY IMPORTANT EVENT (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9756445&postcount=293)

All Warsaw Forces and all American forces have been placed on Full Alert and mobilized. War is pretty much breaking out between the Union and the United States over the latter's puppet's seizure of Spanish outlying territories in North Africa and off the coast.

A Thread will probably be made for this soon, unless somebody manages to talk some sense into us.

and so world war II starts! WOHOO! This is a terrible day for the world, since no treaties on the laws of war as we know it have been made :(

VERY IMPORTANT EVENT (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9756445&postcount=293)

OOC:

Should Great War 2 break out, China will probably detain American citizens within China for "their own protection". It will give China a much needed bargaining tool aganist the US.

This should occur only if the US is hostile or "hatred" aganist China. Otherwise, China might not do the detaining course of action.

YES!!! at last war!!!! I this is sweet, oki the way i see it whichever side i join is going to spark a riot, which is a good thing, i'm torn right now between righty and lefty, go go war!!!!

OOC: The shit has hit the fan and France has thrown in with the Russians, as they just fought the Nationalists to get back Spain's territory.

All Warsaw Forces and all American forces have been placed on Full Alert and mobilized. War is pretty much breaking out between the Union and the United States over the latter's puppet's seizure of Spanish outlying territories in North Africa and off the coast.

A Thread will probably be made for this soon, unless somebody manages to talk some sense into us.

Oh dear.

If the U.K. enters the war, and certain other key nations that influence my nation joins the other side, baaaaaaad things are going to happen.

Palestne is offically neutral, but a division of volunteers took off for France to join the French army, a la the "Blue Division" in WWII

Korea is officially neutral, but an upcoming election will decide if we join the US or the USDR in the upcoming war.

BTW, one of the candidates is Syngman Rhee.

VERY IMPORTANT EVENT (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9756445&postcount=293)

*Dusts off the old 'Neutrality sticker and slaps it on Belgium

This should be fun to watch.

Archbishop Emilio Jarez Corvalan has been elected President of Agentina, and is in the process of being sworn in, when the news of tensions between the major powers of the world reaches Argentina. He awaits word from Great Britain and Japan to decide what his newly formed administration should do in reguards to the war, all fanfare of his election forgotten.

Outside, the people (who voted for him, or who couldn't but wanted him to win) celebrate his victory.

as War Moderator...

ok, official dates are as follows: Russian Stiff Note: July 14, 1924,
US Response: July 15
Russian Response, and all other responses: July 16
French Declaration of War (yes, they started it) August July 17
Anyone else would be July 18 or later

INSTRUCTIONS:
Please post where your forces are concentrated.. example: Russia concentrates its fleet in West Med, Sea of Okhotsk, Armies mobilize in Polish, Ukranian, Western and Siberian Military districts.

RESEARCH YOUR ARMY... You will field the forces your country historically fielded in World War I as it is only 1924. That is the maximum size of your army both at the start (look at 1914 starting forces) and mid war is your peak size (1916 forces). Only exceptions are Germany, where I will incorporate a portion of the Austrian Army, and the US, which has built up differently in this time line. Other exceptions are the Latin American nations for various reasons as well.

You post where your forces are, than you telegram me what you want them to do. Oddly enough, that will sometimes lead to a conflict as your opponent plans something as well. I will be fair on results, however, if you are unhappy with the results, you may ask for explanation.

I will determine if your army is reasonable or not. Air Forces, figure 1916 sized air forces for everyone involved at this point, and if you don't have planes listed, I will determine what you are flying. Only Germany, Russia, Britian, France, Austria, Czechslovakia, the United States and Japan can build military aircraft at war start, although China and Colombia are working on it.

Germany, I want an absolute figure on how many Zeppelins you have, what kind they are , and where they are. No one has had a chance to build anything beyond the Washington Naval Treaty yet, as it just ended two months ago.

Tanks production at this point is restricted to US, Britian, Germany, Russia, Czechslovakia, France, and Colombia. Japan is working on it, and so is China.

NOBODY is ready at this point. No one has ammunition stocks built up, or transports in large quantities, or landing craft in large numbers except for the US (landing craft) and the big merchant fleets (which are Britian, USA, Norway, Netherlands, Germany, Japan and Greece pretty much in that order).

The LTA actually has a War Plan, and has been preparing for the last three years for the contigency of France being on the wrong side. Ribenia, Clan and I have discussed it repeatedly.

NO ACTION WILL OCCUR UNTIL TOMORROW, as we need to give everyone a chance to respond, and some players live in time zones far removed from each other.

The Ottoman Empire decrale itself in a state of Neutrality for this war, yet do to existing treaties with the Russians, they will be allow to going thought Ottoman waters, our treaty with Russia as stated.

meh...im neutral for now even though its over my land i cant afoord another war so soon...

Well, comrades, y'all chose a terrible time to start WWII. Lots of us are readjusting our armies, making new tanks, etc. But that is just how war is, and assuming that I have gotten this right, America has siezed control of the Canary Islands, with France and Russia declaring war on America. If this is correct, then the following applies. If not, then forget I said anything. Also, Italy is reffering to the other side as the "communist and socialist enemy," and Italy no longer recognizes the concerned governments.

IC:

The warmongering socialist and communist enemies of Italy have declared war against our ally, the United States of America, after America took control over the Canary Islands. The Islands have, through free and fair elections, chosen to become a part of Morroco and host American troops. The communist and socialist enemies of Italy have, however, trampled upon the rights of all men in delcaring these free and fair elections fraudulent. Italy cannot stand to see democracy trampled under the feet of communist and socialist imperialism, and, therefore, Italy has declared that a state of war exists between the communist and socialist enemy and the Kingdom of Italy and Libya.

Secret IC:

Pretty generic mobilisation text goes here. Generic text about an old aircraft carrier to be scrapped being reactivated goes here.

"It is with deepest regret and sorrow that it is my duty to declare our nation to be in a state of war, with the United States of America. We never wanted war, but, the United States has seen fit to provoke it. We shall fight to the best of our ability, we shall not falter, we shall not fall in the slipstream, we shall face our enemies and, as we have driven off the pestilence of our own rebels and those in Spain, now we shall destroy the evil that America has become. Good day."

nuetral for the moment, but a nationalist coup is about to happen, watch this space!

"The American Imperialists have taken our rightful lands, lands that have been ours for centuries and stated that we stole them, that we were tyrants over them and allowed them no power! I say that the Americans are wrong! All citizens of Spain, from the Basques to the Catalans to the people in Morrocco. They took the Canary Islands and claim that after being a part of our nation for many years they would gladly become servants to a nation that can only be called a North African Tribe and besubservient to the Muslims there. Thes 'elections' are fraudulant and are only an attempt by the Americans to further their Imperialism and Fascism across the face of the Earth. They rule Morrocco except for in name and they try to take poeples lands and expand in their time of need. These people are lowly scum, parasites who feed off of others hardships to gain for themselves. I, King Alfonso XIII, and my Prime Minister, Alejandro Lerroux, hereby call all socialy minded people to rise up in arms against the Imperialist, Fascist, parasite of a nation that is the United States of America!"

Special problems:

France... your colonists in Algeria and Vietnam are not socialists by any stretch, they are more inclined toward Fascism if anything, while the natives are not inclined to have fondness for you either. Notwithstanding the fact the Vietnam has a degree of independence, they are still not going to be excited about dying for French Socialism in a war they will view as unnecessary. (read up on the Algerian Civil War to find out why that is). In addition, your Admirals point out that sending reinforcements to North Africa is going to require getting past the Italian, British and US navies. Not a sure thing.

Your fleet would have reached Indochina by now, but its a long way to Vladivostok steaming right by US and Japanese bases.

Germany... the Austrians and Bavarians will be luke warm about going to war, while the urban workers are really excited. Some units will be more reliable than others. There is a nasty mountain range to cross to reach Italy, and they are dug in. Your generals are not looking forward to invading Italy at all.

Belgium has already declared its neutrality. All NPC countries will do the same unless they are already a puppet of someone (like Iceland, Greenland, Morocco for the US, like Ukraine for Russia).

As of this time no one has ever practiced unrestricted submarine warfare, so unless notified otherwise, submarines will only attack merchant ships under the usual rules of surfacing, ordering them to stop, and then boarding them to ensure nationality, then giving the crew time to abandon ship and then sinking the ship. Which is risky to put it mildly. Only an armed ship can be torpedoed without warning. You must tell me (the war mod) if you have other plans for your subs.

No one has any substantial stocks of chemical weapons, or bombs, or for that matter, experience with bombing. There will be a nasty learning curve.

Some nations have already started a build up of their air forces and navies, most have not. This will take time to. Just because the Washington Naval Treaty ended two months ago does not mean that battleships will start appearing like mushrooms.

Battleships take at least 32 months to build for US, UK, 36 months for Germany, 48 months for everyone else. Cruisers and carriers take 24 months (US, UK, Germany), 36 months everyone else. Destroyers and submarines take 12 months US, Germany and UK, 18 months everyone else.
Yamato sized battleships by the way cost $10 million and take 6 years in wartime.

Destroyers and submarines are $1 million each
cruisers are $3 million each
battleships and carriers are $5 million each (includes the planes for the carriers). Construction times also include the time required to train crew while double the cost to include crew training.

An armored division costs as much as a battleship, a motorized infantry division as much as a cruiser, and an nonmotorized division of any type is as much as a submarine or destroyer.

No more than 10% of your population is available for mobilization. More than that and your economy is going to take a steep dive.

Some nations are going to have very brittle morale. I will let you know when national morale becomes a problem.

It was my understanding that I declared war only after the Russians did. So technically the Russians started it.

OOC:

I do have military aircraft despite what Galveston said. He recongized my C-9 Yang airplane a couple of weeks ago, as well as me having a few heavy ships by 1924 / 25. I believe that all of this was cleared up and established after I posted my plane and navy stuff a couple weeks ago.

Posts in question...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9615656&postcount=285

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9625192&postcount=292

It was my understanding that I declared war only after the Russians did. So technically the Russians started it.

either way...

China, I responded in the military thread.

Yugoslavian army did not exist in the first world war, so should i just go by what i have now? (13 active divisions of 10k men in infantry divisions and 8k men in my one armored recon division and mountain division, and 15 reserve divisions of 9k men)

For planes we only have a wing of light attack planes and fighters, of german and russian construction.

We have a few russian made tanks, and enough armored cars for a division(of Russian design) and one seperate brigade.
unit placement
Italian Border
1st,2nd,3rd,5th,10th Infantry Divisions
11th Armored Recon Division
1st Mountain Division
1st Volci Brigade(basically stosstruppen of WWI)

Albanian border
4th and 8th infantry divisions

Interior
6th and 7th reorganizing in Split
9th in Sarajevo
101st-110th Infantry Divisions(reserve divisions are always in the hundreds in Yugoslavia) are being activated all over the nation and will be sent to the coastal areas, and the 109th and 110th will be sent to the Italian border.

Yugoslavia, that is fine. In your case, you can use World War II numbers (look up invasion of Yugoslavia to get a feel for your maximum size).

Albania and Greece have hurriedly declared their neutrality, but Greece has mobilized to defend its borders and ordered all LTA and Pact shipping to leave its waters for now.

OOC:

Should Great War 2 break out, China will probably detain American citizens within China for "their own protection". It will give China a much needed bargaining tool aganist the US.

This should occur only if the US is hostile or "hatred" aganist China. Otherwise, China might not do the detaining course of action.

American citizens have already been ordered out of China, but if you detain them, your advisors will tell you that it will definitely mean war with the US.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9756478&postcount=294

the US government requests a clarification from China. Has it declared war on the US, or has it declared itself neutral.

Spain didnt fight in WWI so i used my current forces and then added about 550,000 men but not all are armed and about 300,000 are conscripts so they need to be trained. THe government has givenm contracts to many factorys to build weapons for the new troops and I said they should be ready by April. Is that a good time frame?

After the reorginazation of the First Great War, France now has 900,000 men organized in 10 armies of 90,000 men each, plus colinial garrisons and colonial troops.

(The numbers are WW1, the orginization is mine.)

Italian Border: 3rd, 5th, and 9th Armies

Paris: Army of Paris (1st Army)

Belgium/Burgundy Border: 2nd and 6th Armies (currently being redeployed to the Italian Border)

Channel/Atlantic Coast: 4th, 7th, and 8th Armies

North Africa: 10th Army, plus African Colonial Army of 50,000 men

Vietnam: 30,000 man garrison, plus whatever commonwealth troops Vietnam has.


The Fleet currently has three battleships and a carrier, two squadrons of destroyers, and six cruisers in the Atlantic, plus twenty submarines.

The Med has three battleships, a carrier, six cruisers, and three squadrons of destroyers, plus twenty submarines.

Awaiting the Russian Fleet in the East China sea are two battleships, a carrier, five cruisers, and a squadron of destroyers.

The airforce has planes patroling the coast-lines and borders.

It was my understanding that I declared war only after the Russians did. So technically the Russians started it.
And I only declared war after the Americans invaded Spanish lands. So really the Americans started it. Legally, my ultimatum was phrased in such a way as to evade responsibility for Moscow, i.e., "If you don't bug out then a state of war exists," which as far as we're concerned put the burden of the decision on Washington. Which responded by throwing out my diplomats and mobilizing its forces. But the Americans and the Italians can be expected to ignore such finer points as, you know, law, when it comes to their propaganda. Jeez, look at the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. That was so bogus it glowed in the dark. Not like when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. They were just trying to help.

In other words, both sides will accuse the other of "declaring" war. Really, as far as I'm concerned (and GB will probably agree with me . . .), the Americans were being provocative and bullying, but didn't really care one way or the other if the war starts now or later. If I'd backed down, they'd've probably kept pushing, anyway. We all expected this. They can spin the reality to justify their actions, and we can do the same with ours (though personally I think we are in the right by treaty - but, World War over the freakin' Canaries? An overreaction, it may be said without unfairness). Anyway.

I had some questions about the Red Army. The Imperial Army of 1914 had a lot of horses, and no tanks. I think by now that'd be different, though admittedly we've only been building tanks for, like, five years. And horses probably haven't been phased entirely out yet, especially in Central Asia.

Hey, if we win we can say it was the Americans' fault. ;)

But yeah...I was expecting the war to start over something else. Anyway...Let's get to it.

Russia, you have a fair number of tanks (probably around 1,000 organized into 50 vehicle tank brigades which gives you about 20 of those). But the Soviet Red Army also had nearly 50 horse cavalry divisions as late as 1944, so they are definitely useful. Also, the horse drawn panjie cart is more useful in Russia than most trucks (as most trucks are not four wheel drive, especially not in 1924, and only the Americans actually have any, none of which are in military service yet). So you have a really large army with almost as many horses as men, same for everyone else except for the British home forces, and the US Army (which I had specifically motorized a while back, but even US and British infantry still march instead of ride in trucks).

France, your forces look good. However, your generals are concerned about the political reliability of your units in North Africa. Many of the officers in the 10th Army are old school reactionaries and very right wing. Its even worse in the Algerian Colonial forces (look up the Algerian Civil War for why that is).

by the way, it cracks me up that Spain declared its neutrality and France, Russia and Brazil declared war over the Canary Islands when they are in their terms, Spanish territory.

Spain didnt fight in WWI so i used my current forces and then added about 550,000 men but not all are armed and about 300,000 are conscripts so they need to be trained. THe government has givenm contracts to many factorys to build weapons for the new troops and I said they should be ready by April. Is that a good time frame?

Spain, take a look at the armies of the Spanish Civil War, and take away any non Spanish units (like the Condor Legion or International Brigades). You get all Republican units, but only about 10% of the Nationalist ones as they either just died lately or are so unreliable as to be not worth mobilizing.

I see Spain actually did declare war belatedly... the US Navy looks forward to target practice against the Spanish again.

Actually, Spain has now declared war on you >_> It's on his news thread.

Portugal declares its neutrality, mobilizes its army, and moves to defend its borders. It also orders all LTA and Pact shipping out of its waters, and declares that if the Spanish or any Socialist power invades, it will join forces with its historical ally Great Britain.

ooc
clarification needed... Germany, did Portugal sell you the Azores, or give you basing rights?

Japan Is declaring war in defense of the London Treaty Alliance and is mobilizing its reserves

Australia is officially honoring its commitment to her American allies and is declaring war on the nations of France, Spain, Russia, Germany, Brazil, Vietnam and any further nations that wish to join this war on the side of the socialists.

Bolivia declares its neutrality (for the moment).

ooc: will we switch to 2 rl weeks = 1 game year time scale?

ooc: will we switch to 2 rl weeks = 1 game year time scale?

Since I am the one who will have to keep track of all this, I vote for that

Since I am the one who will have to keep track of all this, I vote for that

I concur

I, also, agree. This one's likely to be huge.

Amsterdam is new host of 1924 games due to Paris withdrawing as host... Los Angeles, London or Stockholm will replace Amsterdam as 1928 host (St. Moritz can still have the 2nd Winter Olympics)...

World's Fair is scheduled for Dunedin, New Zealand for 1925... Philadelphia in 1926 (America)... Barcelona (possibly moved to Rome) in 1929.

GB those armys are a lot smaller then what my army is in here so im gonna use this and just tell me if im overzealous with the recruiting and such...

Organization
Eight Armys of 50,000 and Nine newly created Armys of 50,000

1st Amry-Valencia
2nd and 3rd Armys-Madrid
4th and 5th Armys-Cadiz
6th, 7th, and 8th Armys-Strait of Gibraltar
Total Strength: 400,000

9th-17th Armys recieveing training in Galicia, Castille-Leon, Valencia, and Andalusia
Estimated Strength: 450,000

GB those armys are a lot smaller then what my army is in here so im gonna use this and just tell me if im overzealous with the recruiting and such...

Organization
Eight Armys of 50,000 and Nine newly created Armys of 50,000

1st Amry-Valencia
2nd and 3rd Armys-Madrid
4th and 5th Armys-Cadiz
6th, 7th, and 8th Armys-Strait of Gibraltar
Total Strength: 400,000

9th-17th Armys recieveing training in Galicia, Castille-Leon, Valencia, and Andalusia
Estimated Strength: 450,000

twice what it should be... the Civil War wasn't that big for you, and you are dealing with money problems at the moment because of that Civil War. I suggested the Republican Army from the Civil War period for that reason.

GB those armys are a lot smaller then what my army is in here so im gonna use this and just tell me if im overzealous with the recruiting and such...

Organization
Eight Armys of 50,000 and Nine newly created Armys of 50,000

1st Amry-Valencia
2nd and 3rd Armys-Madrid
4th and 5th Armys-Cadiz
6th, 7th, and 8th Armys-Strait of Gibraltar
Total Strength: 400,000

9th-17th Armys recieveing training in Galicia, Castille-Leon, Valencia, and Andalusia
Estimated Strength: 450,000

twice what it should be... the Civil War wasn't that big for you, and you are dealing with money problems at the moment because of that Civil War. I suggested the Republican Army from the historic Civil War period for that reason.

My army in the RP was 450 before the Civil War and only about 70,000 defected. Also the 9-17 are not armed yet and i said that they wouldnt be ready until like April-May.

It is a matter of population and size Spain, France barely has more than what you plan to have after all.

meh ill tone down the conscripts but my main force stays

My army in the RP was 450 before the Civil War and only about 70,000 defected. Also the 9-17 are not armed yet and i said that they wouldnt be ready until like April-May.

I also assumed you meant reservists and regulars combined, not as a standing army. That would have been a good national army, but way too big for a standing army for Spain at this point.

the 400 is standing and reserve from nine on is conscripts who have as of yet not been armed...

This is the 8:00 PM News from Santiago, Chile

The combined meeting of the President, Cabinet, Chiefs of Services and Banking Regulators continue into the evening. This meeting is in light of the French declaration of war against the United States of America. A review of bilateral and Pan American treaty obligations is the main focus of the meeting. The Attorney General has been ordered to report to the President within two weeks if French interests in Chile come under the 1912 Acts regarding Trade with Hostile Nations.

Chilean Flag ships have been ordered to restrict routes to Chile and destinations on the Pacific Coast of South America. Naval escorts are offered to the flag commercial vessels. The area of protection will be expanded when convoy arrangements can be arranged with Columbia and the United States of America.

--

This is news from the Overseas Service of Radio Nacional deChile, Santiago.

I have the feeling that it's going to be rather hard for me to calculate my military strength at this moment, especially since I have a little thing up my sleve.

This is the 8:00 PM News from Santiago, Chile

The combined meeting of the President, Cabinet, Chiefs of Services and Banking Regulators continue into the evening. This meeting is in light of the French declaration of war against the United States of America. A review of bilateral and Pan American treaty obligations is the main focus of the meeting. The Attorney General has been ordered to report to the President within two weeks if French interests in Chile come under the 1912 Acts regarding Trade with Hostile Nations.

Chilean Flag ships have been ordered to restrict routes to Chile and destinations on the Pacific Coast of South America. Naval escorts are offered to the flag commercial vessels. The area of protection will be expanded when convoy arrangements can be arranged with Columbia and the United States of America.

--

This is news from the Overseas Service of Radio Nacional deChile, Santiago.

Would that hurt my trade?

American citizens have already been ordered out of China, but if you detain them, your advisors will tell you that it will definitely mean war with the US.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9756478&postcount=294

the US government requests a clarification from China. Has it declared war on the US, or has it declared itself neutral.

There hasn't been a declaration of war, but China made it perfectly clear that should any LTA member especially Japan try to attack China or threaten Chinese interests in Asia, then China will have no choice but to defend itself.

There hasn't been a declaration of war, but China made it perfectly clear that should any LTA member especially Japan try to attack China or threaten Chinese interests in Asia, then China will have no choice but to defend itself.

OOC: check your TG's

The Hamburg High Command is saddened at the apparent distaste for human life the schweinenhundtz express. Regardless, full mobilization is in effect.

The Azores are immediately fully mobilized with every civilian given a rifle and ammunition. 17,000 soldiers are sent there as well as 3 tanks, and supplies arrive daily. (Portugal sold them for a nonagression pact)

In Madiera the same thing occurs.

At the moment Germany is staying friendly to the Warsaw Pact, but not declaring war. Also, 13 Divisions of German Soldiers are being sent to Brazil for "training". Several Zeppelin Squadrons and nearly 300 Tanks follow.

All surface fleet plans are scrapped and U-boats are being constructed.

3/4ths of the Uboats are sent to the Azores and Madiera. The Baltic Fleets remain in Keil.

Basically, Germany is mobilized, without a war.

OOC:

It looks like China is forced into war because of the actions of Australia.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9758966&postcount=487

This means the LTA is the aggressor here, not China. It is clear that China professed neutrality and not declare war aganist anyone, until Australia did so with its submarines attacking and sinking of Chinese ships.

Parthini']The Hamburg High Command is saddened at the apparent distaste for human life the schweinenhundtz express. Regardless, full mobilization is in effect.

The Azores are immediately fully mobilized with every civilian given a rifle and ammunition. 17,000 soldiers are sent there as well as 3 tanks, and supplies arrive daily. (Portugal sold them for a nonagression pact)

In Madiera the same thing occurs.

At the moment Germany is staying friendly to the Warsaw Pact, but not declaring war. Also, 13 Divisions of German Soldiers are being sent to Brazil for "training". Several Zeppelin Squadrons and nearly 300 Tanks follow.

All surface fleet plans are scrapped and U-boats are being constructed.

3/4ths of the Uboats are sent to the Azores and Madiera. The Baltic Fleets remain in Keil.

Basically, Germany is mobilized, without a war.

any German entry in Brazil will be an act of war against the US, since Brazil declared war against the US.. In addition, Germany is given an ultimatum, immediately stand down your fleet, return all ships to base, or consider yourself at war. Any submarines or warships or merchant ships found outside of 200 miles of the German coast on July 20 will be considered hostile.

I have the feeling that it's going to be rather hard for me to calculate my military strength at this moment, especially since I have a little thing up my sleve.

I know exactly what the military strength of India is, and the Rajahs, and most of the PMs of your government are going to insist on joining the war on Britains side

OOC: That's the point...

IC: Strangly and unrelated, the Left Hand buys any and all Helium it can find, for a lot of money.

Parthini']OOC: That's the point...

IC: Strangly and unrelated, the Left Hand buys any and all Helium it can find, for a lot of money.

All Helium sales were halted, all shipments stopped, the minute the US went to war. All German ships in US harbors are hereby seized for inspection.

Would that hurt my trade?
No. This applies protection to Chilean Flag commercial vessels with both origin and destnation on the Pacific Coast of South America. At this time pending legal review of treaty obligations Chile is not at war.

OOC:

It looks like China is forced into war because of the actions of Australia.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9758966&postcount=487

This means the LTA is the aggressor here, not China. It is clear that China professed neutrality and not declare war aganist anyone, until Australia did so with its submarines attacking and sinking of Chinese ships.

ooc
actually no, because the war moderator has not allowed any military action to take place yet until everyone has had a chance to realize war has started as we have players in many different time zones.

Hey man, I'm just helping the Brazilians put down the civil war.

IC: The transports begin moving as fast as possible and 2 dozen U-Boats are sent to the East Coast.

1st, 2nd, and 3rd Armys are mobilizeing with the French. The 5th Army has been moved to Valencia.

I must voice my disagreement with what Galveston Bay said on Chatzy regarding discontent and rebellions in China.

1. China has a new dynasty founded just 25 years ago. Most Chinese dynasties last for several generations, if not more.

2. Most of the time, a charimsatic leader's rule doesn't easily succumb to rebellions and revolts. Rebellions or revolts can happen if the charimsatic ruler's children are inept, or successive generations are incomptent- look at Rome and France for instances of this.

3. Galveston Bay stated that my China has far more political stability than RL China.

4. The new dynasty has done a lot of positive things for China, and very few negative things. Thus, there is a far less "need" for rebellion or revolt to take place as more people will be happy with the positive things the dynasty has done than not.

5. My dynasty won the Boxer Rebellion, as in fully securing Chinese "independence" from Europe and the Western world. This is seen as a major victory for the Chinese, and possibly other Third World countries, showing that they can stand up to First World powers and come out winners.

6. My dynasty helped modernize China from a backwards 19th century type of nation to a modern 20th century nation. Tech level went from 2 to 4.5. Economy went from Struggling to Fair or Good.

7. My dynasty failed to purchase Cambodia and Laos from France two times, in 1903 or so, then in 1908 after the Great War. However, my dynasty succeeded in the purchase a third time. There was no violence involved. Peaceful annexation of lands = huge plus compared to violent annexation of lands.

8. Continued Chinese growth, improved economy, better trade, and so forth which defies the Westerner views of China as a backwards nation. There are many more jobs in China in 1924 than in 1900. Many Chinese people are able to buy luxuries, have a job, and have a decent living as opposed to pre-Boxer Rebellion and pre-Emperor Guozu. Why anyone would want to revolt aganist *that* is beyond me.



With all these positive things, I find it extremely, if not impossible, to believe that there would be revolutionaries, malcontents, discontents, etc. who want to go aganist a government that has done nothing but bring excellent fortune and growth to its people. If the government was doing a terrible job, then definitely rebellion and revolts- but against a government that has given its nation immense benefits? Hardly.

My second point is that it also bothers me that the LTA appears to have no revolts or rebellions. I can see the USA sticking together, but Britain? Hardly. Britain should be far more suspectible to revolts and rebellions than China if we use the "race" and "ethnicity" issue that Galveston Bay stated in Chatzy.

In China, there's the Han Chinese VS the Cantonese Chinese.

But with Britain, we have Indians, Afghanistans, Burmese, Bruneians, Africans (blacks), etc.


My third point is that the democractic movement that Galveston Bay stated can be dealt with in two ways.

First, introduce local level democracy to towns, cities, villages, etc. But keep the Imperial Family in power, as they will have the final say in laws and such- exactly like the USA with its President and the Presidential Veto. However, in China's case, there is no overriding the Emperor's veto.

Second, start to implement a parilmentary democracy- something akin to RL modern day Britain. However, the Imperial Family wil have more power than the RL British princes, princesses, queens, and kings.

This will give the Chinese democrats the illusion of having a democracy, while maintaining China's long history of imperial dynasties.

Parthini']Hey man, I'm just helping the Brazilians put down the civil war.

IC: The transports begin moving as fast as possible and 2 dozen U-Boats are sent to the East Coast.

ooc
The U-boats will take 2 weeks to reach American waters. It will take about that long to round up the transports you want, and then load them, and then it will take 3 weeks to cross the Atlantic, and require escorts, and you will be open to attack by the British the instant you hit the North Sea, and from the LTA the entire way across the Atlantic.

Your Admirals think this is a really bad idea. The U-Boats, sure, but the tranports are entirely too risky a move without superiority at sea.

I must voice my disagreement with what Galveston Bay said on Chatzy regarding discontent and rebellions in China.

1. China has a new dynasty founded just 25 years ago. Most Chinese dynasties last for several generations, if not more.

2. Most of the time, a charimsatic leader's rule doesn't easily succumb to rebellions and revolts. Rebellions or revolts can happen if the charimsatic ruler's children are inept, or successive generations are incomptent- look at Rome and France for instances of this.

3. Galveston Bay stated that my China has far more political stability than RL China.

4. The new dynasty has done a lot of positive things for China, and very few negative things. Thus, there is a far less "need" for rebellion or revolt to take place as more people will be happy with the positive things the dynasty has done than not.

5. My dynasty won the Boxer Rebellion, as in fully securing Chinese "independence" from Europe and the Western world. This is seen as a major victory for the Chinese, and possibly other Third World countries, showing that they can stand up to First World powers and come out winners.

6. My dynasty helped modernize China from a backwards 19th century type of nation to a modern 20th century nation. Tech level went from 2 to 4.5. Economy went from Struggling to Fair or Good.

7. My dynasty failed to purchase Cambodia and Laos from France two times, in 1903 or so, then in 1908 after the Great War. However, my dynasty succeeded in the purchase a third time. There was no violence involved. Peaceful annexation of lands = huge plus compared to violent annexation of lands.

8. Continued Chinese growth, improved economy, better trade, and so forth which defies the Westerner views of China as a backwards nation. There are many more jobs in China in 1924 than in 1900. Many Chinese people are able to buy luxuries, have a job, and have a decent living as opposed to pre-Boxer Rebellion and pre-Emperor Guozu. Why anyone would want to revolt aganist *that* is beyond me.



With all these positive things, I find it extremely, if not impossible, to believe that there would be revolutionaries, malcontents, discontents, etc. who want to go aganist a government that has done nothing but bring excellent fortune and growth to its people. If the government was doing a terrible job, then definitely rebellion and revolts- but against a government that has given its nation immense benefits? Hardly.

My second point is that it also bothers me that the LTA appears to have no revolts or rebellions. I can see the USA sticking together, but Britain? Hardly. Britain should be far more suspectible to revolts and rebellions than China if we use the "race" and "ethnicity" issue that Galveston Bay stated in Chatzy.

In China, there's the Han Chinese VS the Cantonese Chinese.

But with Britain, we have Indians, Afghanistans, Burmese, Bruneians, Africans (blacks), etc.


My third point is that the democractic movement that Galveston Bay stated can be dealt with in two ways.

First, introduce local level democracy to towns, cities, villages, etc. But keep the Imperial Family in power, as they will have the final say in laws and such- exactly like the USA with its President and the Presidential Veto. However, in China's case, there is no overriding the Emperor's veto.

Second, start to implement a parilmentary democracy- something akin to RL modern day Britain. However, the Imperial Family wil have more power than the RL British princes, princesses, queens, and kings.

This will give the Chinese democrats the illusion of having a democracy, while maintaining China's long history of imperial dynasties.


Revolutions are about rising expectations, not actual conditions. When things get better, people start expecting things to change even faster.

The Russian, American and French Revolutions occured because the Middle Class was tired of not having a say. The Iranian and Russian Revolutions also occured because the government was repressive, but not effectively repressive. Even the British had their revolution, and only after a generation went back to having a monarch, and then they overthrew his brother and replaced him with another monarch when he didn't work out.

The real Democracy movement in China is about the Middle class not having a say. Unless the Middle Class has real political power in China, they do not have a say, and they know it. Your reforms have also almost certainly not touched the peasantry. If the Red Chinese haven't done it after nearly 60 years, you would not be able to have done so in 24 years.

Also, consider this, the Manchu Dynasty waged the bloodiest war in human history prior to the Great War. It was the Chinese Civil War in the 1860s, and most of the suppression occured in southern China. That is also remembered.

The US has dealt with its problems, and so has the British in India by giving real power to the people, and reforming the worst excesses of the Industrial Revolution. That was well before the war, and was posted in the threads. The only thing the British haven't announced is real reform in Ireland.

Revolutions are about rising expectations, not actual conditions. When things get better, people start expecting things to change even faster.

The Russian, American and French Revolutions occured because the Middle Class was tired of not having a say. The Iranian and Russian Revolutions also occured because the government was repressive, but not effectively repressive. Even the British had their revolution, and only after a generation went back to having a monarch, and then they overthrew his brother and replaced him with another monarch when he didn't work out.

The real Democracy movement in China is about the Middle class not having a say. Unless the Middle Class has real political power in China, they do not have a say, and they know it. Your reforms have also almost certainly not touched the peasantry. If the Red Chinese haven't done it after nearly 60 years, you would not be able to have done so in 24 years.

Also, consider this, the Manchu Dynasty waged the bloodiest war in human history prior to the Great War. It was the Chinese Civil War in the 1860s, and most of the suppression occured in southern China. That is also remembered.

The US has dealt with its problems, and so has the British in India by giving real power to the people, and reforming the worst excesses of the Industrial Revolution. That was well before the war, and was posted in the threads. The only thing the British haven't announced is real reform in Ireland.

Hmm..

Two points.

First, the Manchu Dynasty has been replaced by my new dynasty. Thus, the chance to start a-new. After all, it was a "revolution" of sorts that replaced the Manchu Dynasty and the Dowager Empress Cixi with Emperor Guozu and the Zhuge Dynasty.

Second, the middle class and the "peasantry" will have political say and power. They will be able to vote on local matters in villages, towns, cities, and even small provinces. However, the Imperial Family still stays in power and has the ability to pass uncontested vetos. Think of it this way...

USA / China

------------------
Local / Town / Province level

Town Meetings = Local democracy
Elected Mayors = Elected Magistrates
Elected Councilmen = Elected Officials

------------------
National level

President (Cox) = Emperor (Guozu)
Senate = Imperial Family
House of Representatives = Council of (Elected) Magistrates
Governors = (under debate, could be a mix of Imperial Family and elected governors)

-------------------

The most significant difference is that in China, there is no overriding the Emperor's veto, unlike in the USA where the President can be vetoed by 2/3 of Congress. In addition, should the Emperor demand a particular law to be passed, it shall be passed (to cut through bureaucracy red tape or filibusters). However, for the most part, the Emperor will not interfere with the lawmaking processes unless it requires his attention or controvesterial laws (Stem cell research, abortion, discrimination / affirmative action, etc. are examples of this).

Second difference is the Emperor and the Imperial Family have full command of the military. Unlike in the USA, where military is influenced by Congress and politics (like funding, "save face", or such), in China, the military is directed by the desires of the Emperor. If the Emperor wishes more naval warships to be built, it will be done, without debate or arguing like in the USA's Congress. Ditto for ground forces, aircraft, defense projects, etc.

Third, freedom of speech is encouraged in China to help improve laws and such. This should give these "rebels" a source to vent their anger or frustrations, then these issues will be brought before a Chinese Council, or even the Emperor himself.



I believe these measures should go a long way to allowing democracy in China, while keeping the ancient Chinese tradition of emperors and dynasties. What fun would China be without an Emperor or dynasty to lead it? It'd just be another USA without that unique Imperial "flavor" or so to speak.

I must voice my disagreement with what Galveston Bay said on Chatzy regarding discontent and rebellions in China.

1. China has a new dynasty founded just 25 years ago. Most Chinese dynasties last for several generations, if not more.

2. Most of the time, a charimsatic leader's rule doesn't easily succumb to rebellions and revolts. Rebellions or revolts can happen if the charimsatic ruler's children are inept, or successive generations are incomptent- look at Rome and France for instances of this.

3. Galveston Bay stated that my China has far more political stability than RL China.

4. The new dynasty has done a lot of positive things for China, and very few negative things. Thus, there is a far less "need" for rebellion or revolt to take place as more people will be happy with the positive things the dynasty has done than not.

5. My dynasty won the Boxer Rebellion, as in fully securing Chinese "independence" from Europe and the Western world. This is seen as a major victory for the Chinese, and possibly other Third World countries, showing that they can stand up to First World powers and come out winners.

6. My dynasty helped modernize China from a backwards 19th century type of nation to a modern 20th century nation. Tech level went from 2 to 4.5. Economy went from Struggling to Fair or Good.

7. My dynasty failed to purchase Cambodia and Laos from France two times, in 1903 or so, then in 1908 after the Great War. However, my dynasty succeeded in the purchase a third time. There was no violence involved. Peaceful annexation of lands = huge plus compared to violent annexation of lands.

8. Continued Chinese growth, improved economy, better trade, and so forth which defies the Westerner views of China as a backwards nation. There are many more jobs in China in 1924 than in 1900. Many Chinese people are able to buy luxuries, have a job, and have a decent living as opposed to pre-Boxer Rebellion and pre-Emperor Guozu. Why anyone would want to revolt aganist *that* is beyond me.



With all these positive things, I find it extremely, if not impossible, to believe that there would be revolutionaries, malcontents, discontents, etc. who want to go aganist a government that has done nothing but bring excellent fortune and growth to its people. If the government was doing a terrible job, then definitely rebellion and revolts- but against a government that has given its nation immense benefits? Hardly.

My second point is that it also bothers me that the LTA appears to have no revolts or rebellions. I can see the USA sticking together, but Britain? Hardly. Britain should be far more suspectible to revolts and rebellions than China if we use the "race" and "ethnicity" issue that Galveston Bay stated in Chatzy.

In China, there's the Han Chinese VS the Cantonese Chinese.

But with Britain, we have Indians, Afghanistans, Burmese, Bruneians, Africans (blacks), etc.


My third point is that the democractic movement that Galveston Bay stated can be dealt with in two ways.

First, introduce local level democracy to towns, cities, villages, etc. But keep the Imperial Family in power, as they will have the final say in laws and such- exactly like the USA with its President and the Presidential Veto. However, in China's case, there is no overriding the Emperor's veto.

Second, start to implement a parilmentary democracy- something akin to RL modern day Britain. However, the Imperial Family wil have more power than the RL British princes, princesses, queens, and kings.

This will give the Chinese democrats the illusion of having a democracy, while maintaining China's long history of imperial dynasties.

Revolutions are about rising expectations, not actual conditions. When things get better, people start expecting things to change even faster.

The Russian, American and French Revolutions occured because the Middle Class was tired of not having a say. The Iranian and Russian Revolutions also occured because the government was repressive, but not effectively repressive. Even the British had their revolution, and only after a generation went back to having a monarch, and then they overthrew his brother and replaced him with another monarch when he didn't work out.

The real Democracy movement in China is about the Middle class not having a say. Unless the Middle Class has real political power in China, they do not have a say, and they know it. Your reforms have also almost certainly not touched the peasantry. If the Red Chinese haven't done it after nearly 60 years, you would not be able to have done so in 24 years.

Also, consider this, the Manchu Dynasty waged the bloodiest war in human history prior to the Great War. It was the Chinese Civil War in the 1860s, and most of the suppression occured in southern China. That is also remembered.

The US has dealt with its problems, and so has the British in India by giving real power to the people, and reforming the worst excesses of the Industrial Revolution. That was well before the war, and was posted in the threads. The only thing the British haven't announced is real reform in Ireland.

As the third member of our troika, and, I might add, probably the resident expert on Chinese history, I'll be stepping in to arbitrate this. I hope I have both of your recognition to do so.

Galveston Bay has some misconceptions about the dynamics of class relations in China, and definitely seems to overestimate sectional tensions, while Sharina seems to overestimate the sweep of his dynastic reforms and also to not fully understand the dynamics of class relations in China. They're not like in Europe or America at all. There's no tradition, for instance, of a military aristocracy, and the Mandarins themselves, in one way are the "Middle Class." In another way, they're nothing like the urban bourgeoisie of the West. Peasants are honored above all other classes in theory, though despised in practice, and merchants the exact reverse. There are some issues that have never been addressed by the dynasty, because I don't think Sharina is even really aware of them - nepotism and endemic corruption, for instance; foot-binding and the status of women; labor conditions; the flow of capital.

Anyway, as I say, I'll arbitrate this, in the China News/Diplomatic Thread.

I know exactly what the military strength of India is, and the Rajahs, and most of the PMs of your government are going to insist on joining the war on Britains side

I know, we're joining the Brits.

But that's not all, young one. That's not all...

*laughs quietly*

I know, we're joining the Brits.

But that's not all, young one. That's not all...

*laughs quietly*

OOC
To make life bearable for me the military mod, I will use 1939 forces for India, since I can actually find those
http://web.archive.org/web/20030407000242/home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/india.html

with appropriate adjustments for 1924 technology

In addition Lightning Star, you must inform the Military Mod (ME) of all military operations involving your country, including any rebellions.

Or they don't happen.

The Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, makes a rousing speech in parliament along the lines of supporting our allies and standing for freedom in the world. Shortly later a vote is taken on whether to declare war against the agressors (The Union etc.). This is passed almost unanimously and messages are sent to the Union and France that unless they withdraw declarations of war against the US that Britain will be forced to declare war upon them.

(I am presuming that will not happen)

Following their refusal to comply Winston Churchill makes a speech to his public:

"In all her long years the proud men and women of this Empire have stood for freedom and liberty. Now is our chance to prove to the world that we can fight,a nd win, for our ideals of independence and sovereignity. In light of the recent declaration of war between the United States of America and the Union of Russia and Germany parliament today held an emergency meeting. The result of that meeting was to send an ultimatum to the agressors that unless peace was restored Britain would be forced to intervene. I can tell you that they refused to cooperate and that subsequently a state of war now exists between our great nation and the communist opressors.

Whilst the coming fight may be long and will certainly be hard fought Britain cannot allow her allies and friends to stand alone against the vile threat from the continent. We will succeed!"

The military is mobilised, reserves and colonial militias called up etc. Ammunition factories are instructed to move to a war footing and all foreign borders are reinforced by military units.

ooc
parthini, the US considers itself at war with Germany when Russia declared war on it.. you are both in the Union after all

OOC: If the time for military action comes round and I haven't posted I hereby authorise GB to direct my military forces (as oer the contingency plan) until I get around to posting.

Just a contingency so that Britain doesn't get caught out when the military movement deadline comes around. I knwo most of us are all in different timeszones.

I need to know if anyone has declared war aganist China, or is going to attack China (Not counting the Australia submarine thing).

If Canada is Free I would like to join as Canada

I need to know if anyone has declared war aganist China, or is going to attack China (Not counting the Australia submarine thing).

No one has declared war on China yet as far as I know, and since I need to know, I am assuming so far you are neutral.

Main War Thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9761995#post9761995

One question. Would it be realistically possible to entertain a Socialist revolt in Korea right now?

Probably not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers_Party_of_Korea#Origins). And Moscow wouldn't support one that would fail.

No one has declared war on China yet as far as I know, and since I need to know, I am assuming so far you are neutral.

Main War Thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9761995#post9761995

Exactly. Right now China's in "Defense Build-Up Mode"- and only will go "total war" if it is attacked, invaded, or messed with.

I shall be bold to predict the outcome of the Great War 2.

On one hand, I predict most of the war will be fought on the seas. This is because of the naval build-up and the Washington Naval Treaty break-down (no more limits on anyone's navies).

On the other hand, the USA and UK have little reason to launch ground invasion of France, Germany, and Russia. Unlike in our RL WW 2, the Allies invaded Europe to liberate France from the Nazis. In this Great War 2, France is allied to Germany and Co. so the French would actually help the Germans fight off any Allied invasion, instead of supporting an Allied invasion.

So I predict the Great War 2 will be won on the seas by the LTA, but won on the ground by the Warsaw Pact.

Basically, the war is Eur-Asia VS the Americas (except Brazil) and that tiny little island known as Britain.

All divisions have been ordered to prepare defense obstacle on the beaches of Spain to protect from any LTA invasion. After the recent naval battle in Gibraltar the High Command doesnt know what to do except build defenses and wait and see. Conscription has continued and another army has been created, the 18th, it will be armed and trained by April/May. This brings the total number of troops to 900,000. The High Command has also noted the necessity for a strong navy and has put in orders for the revamp of the Spanish Navy to be created after the war is over.

Oh, they'll invade. Don't think they won't. They will win on the Seas (punks!), but they'll try to take the land, too. 'Cause Kapitalists are greedy that way. Mean old Kapitalists.

I shall be bold to predict the outcome of the Great War 2.

On one hand, I predict most of the war will be fought on the seas. This is because of the naval build-up and the Washington Naval Treaty break-down (no more limits on anyone's navies).

On the other hand, the USA and UK have little reason to launch ground invasion of France, Germany, and Russia. Unlike in our RL WW 2, the Allies invaded Europe to liberate France from the Nazis. In this Great War 2, France is allied to Germany and Co. so the French would actually help the Germans fight off any Allied invasion, instead of supporting an Allied invasion.

So I predict the Great War 2 will be won on the seas by the LTA, but won on the ground by the Warsaw Pact.

Basically, the war is Eur-Asia VS the Americas (except Brazil) and that tiny little island known as Britain.

But will there be much ground fighting?

I mean, unlike in WWII, I don't see any mass invasions of European nations. All enemies are basically across a two giant oceans, with maybe a naval invasion of Great Britain(which will prolly fail, of course)

But will there be much ground fighting?

I mean, unlike in WWII, I don't see any mass invasions of European nations. All enemies are basically across a two giant oceans, with maybe a naval invasion of Great Britain(which will prolly fail, of course)

True...here's my two cents (apologies for self-horn-tooting are issued in advance):

Korea will see some action. If I join the Russians, then it will be like Admiral Yi vs. Toyotomi Hideyoshi all over again...with no turtleships. If I join the LTA, then I can expect an invasion of my Northern Flank by the Red Menace....and possible Japanese or American intervention to help stop it.

Either way, I totally don't discount land warfare here.

ooc
All I will say is that Ribenia, myself and Clan have been working on a warplan for nearly 6 weeks now. Based on France turning on us, China being hostile and the Russians and Germans behind it all.

So I guess we will see how it all works out. There is a reason I picked a fight now, instead of waiting.

Although Prime Minister Hertzog was a strong proponent of neutrality, enough of the Volksraad and the military command turned out when former PM Jan Christiaan Smuts gave a speech in Bloemfontein advocating support for the British that Hertzog was persuaded to discuss the issue with the Volkraad. The outcome of the debates:

South Africa has declared full support for Great Britain, in all cases. A state of war now exists between South Africa and any nation-state with which Britain is at war.

South Africa has, however, declared neutrality with Yugoslavia, in an attempt to get their peacekeeping troops out alive. I'll post my military specs in a minute in the relevant thread.

Just so that I don't get any more annoying messages about my citizens being arrested (not a way to get on my good side . . .), assume henceforth that the Union breaks off diplomatic relations and removes its citizens with any Kapitalist running-dog puppet-state (you try losing two Oceans and see how cheery you are afterwards . . .) that declares War on us.

OOC: GB, I am not part of the Union. That won't happen for another two years. So when you declared war on the Union, you left me out.

Also, who says I wasn't doing the preparations before you declared war on me? If it was implied that that was announced, it wasn't. Just to clarify. So I think I would have had time to get to Brazil before the LTA does.

Parthini']OOC: GB, I am not part of the Union. That won't happen for another two years. So when you declared war on the Union, you left me out.

Also, who says I wasn't doing the preparations before you declared war on me? If it was implied that that was announced, it wasn't. Just to clarify. So I think I would have had time to get to Brazil before the LTA does.

ooc
the British would certainly have passed on to the US that German transports were steaming from German ports out into the Atlantic. A single division in 1924 will require roughly 300,000 tons of shipping (if you include artillery, 30 days worth of supplies, their transport etc)... average merchant ship in 1924 is about 6,000 tons, a big liner is around 20,000 tons. Either way, a single division takes between 15 - 50 merchant ships, plus you would certainly want to consider escorting them. You are talking about moving 13 divisions, which will also require army and corps headquarters (another 5 divisions worth of personnel) so call that 18 divisions, 270 - 900 ships or that number of ship loads (figure 5 round trips based on your merchant fleet, 100 days per trip at 10 knots, the average speed of a fast merchant ship in 1924)

This would be noticable to say the least.

Now the Uboats can slip by without notice, but since you were also sending out ships to the Azores transporting about 2 divisions worth of troops, and another force of some size to Madeira, you can't do everything want in July.

So exactly how far are you willing to risk it?

The US gave the following ultimatum to Germany on July 18, the day the French and Russians declared War and or issued ultimatums to the US

"Germany is given an ultimatum, immediately stand down your fleet, return all ships to base, or consider yourself at war. Any submarines or warships or merchant ships found outside of 200 miles of the German coast on July 20 will be considered hostile" (previously posted)

So any German shipping found 200 miles from the German coast on July 20 will be engaged by American warships whenever and whereever found.

I am not being purposefully difficult. There are concrete reasons why it took the United States from 1942 until 1944 to get enough shipping to invade France, and why the Allies landed on DDay with only 5 assault divisions and 5 followup divisions plus 3 airborne divisions. And that was with better ships and technology than we have in 1924. Shipping is a big constraint, even for the LTA, and even we can't do everything we want everywhere at once.

Offical Statement by India

The people of India give their full support to Great Britain and the LTA.

OOC: Of course, you guys knew that was gonna happen :p.

OOC: Fine. I won't send 300K soldiers to Brazil. I won't send any. However, I am sending the vast majority of my Subs to the Azores.

Did anyone ever get back to me on the Spanish issue? Well thats okay since I am asking (very very politly) if I could be the popular rebellion in Denmark. Since I was thinking of a couple of things, feel free to disagree....

WWII Germany has a fun time pretending to go through a sprint to the top of Denmark in a boot camp style almost zero resistance. Once occupied the Danes become the bane and best occupied country of germany. Thay actually become so good friends a whole division of danes joins the SS.
But also a danish guy(don't know his proffesion) pretty much invents "piggy-back signals" ove phone lines for the active danish resittance.
So that what gives me hope (combined with the fact that the super-powers are finally caring.)
So someone get back to in all due speed.

Well, considering there aren't any Left Hand soldiers in Denmark, and the government was elected, I see no way for a resistance to happen.

Thank you for getting back to me so soon. May I ask to be Egypt? Since Denmark is nice but I would enjoy a more far flung nation.

another big sea battle

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9763454&postcount=6

don't expect any more posts for a while.. I have to read everything you people have been posting all day, eat dinner, deal with children and wife, etc... later tonight (my time) I will post some more.

ummm, i'm planning a Nationalist Coup in Zion, is this alright? Also would i need to post this in the main war thread, my news thread or start a new thread?

ummm, i'm planning a Nationalist Coup in Zion, is this alright? Also would i need to post this in the main war thread, my news thread or start a new thread?


news thread is fine.. posts in the war thread should be things that directly impact the war

it does impact the war, this means that New Zion will hopfully be able to gain land from the far more lenient Arch Bishop, which therfore means that we can use more troops and hopfully cause an impact in this war.

Bulgaria is not sure about where it should be in the big picture, therefore we would be neutral at the moment...

I am curious as to what the Czechoslovakians are doing now. Are they NPC? And if so, did they join the Pact?

Parthini']I am curious as to what the Czechoslovakians are doing now. Are they NPC? And if so, did they join the Pact?
Check the Link at the First Post. They're being played as Russophiles by Iron Blood.

Land Reforms, Semi-Autonomy in French Algeria

Parliament passed land reforms in Algeria today, dissolving many large land-holdings and giving them to the native population for their own use. Although this move may have angered the alrge land-owners, it is considered just for the Algerian natives. In addition, France has granted them semi-autonomy, much as it had recently granted Vietname semi-autonomy.

Wow, I go away for a week and what happens?? World war II! Romania is naturally neutral in the conflict and will commence trade with both sides. Oh and a warm congratulations to Sharina on a successful operation. Hope you continue to hear that which is good in our life.

Quito Daily News

1924
Jose Luis Tamyo has declared war on the Warsaw nations. He says he is allying with the London Treaty Alliance. He is calling all men in the military to active duty. He also sent 50 more men to Fuerte Ecuador on the Galapogos.

Wow, I go away for a week and what happens?? World war II! Romania is naturally neutral in the conflict and will commence trade with both sides. Oh and a warm congratulations to Sharina on a successful operation. Hope you continue to hear that which is good in our life.

Heh, i should just let you know that trading with both sides in now impossible...the sea lanes now are dangerous for even neutrals. Which after all of that, only pact members can get stuff from you! YAY!

Official Left Hand Statement

WARNING TO ALL NEUTRAL NATIONS

Sea Trade in the Atlantic Ocean, Caribbean Sea, Mediterranean Sea, and waters surrounding the British Isles is hereby declared "very unsafe" for civilian shipping, and Neutral Nations are hereby warned. All Shipping in routes to Britain, Italy or America are closed, and anything trading with such nations will be SUNK ON SIGHT.

Neutral Eurasian Nations are requested to trade with Warsaw Pact Nations instead.

Offical Declaration of Neutrality

In response to the growing bloodshed across Europe between the Great Powers, the Federal Republic of Belgium as of this day, October 1 of the year 1925, announces it's absolute and total neutrality in the porceedings of the conflict in question.

Any attempt to engulf and/or entice our nation into joining the conlflict in question will be promplty ignored. Furthermore, no Army besides the Army of Belgium is permitted to travel through the Lands of Flanders and/or Wallonia unless given permission by the proper authorities in Brussels.

We truly hope that all nations involved in this terrible conflict will cease their hostilities against one another so that the lives of many can be saved.

Singed,

François Schollaert
President of the Republic

Léon Delacroix
Prime Minister of Parliment

Antonie Jaques Martinique
Foriegn Minister

-------------------------------------------------------------------

TO: Berlin, Germany
FROM: Bruxelles, Belgium

Dear Sir(s):

Although we do understand and respect your decision to place a naval blockade on all LTA shipping routes, the FRB simply cannot comply. For the past many decades, a large portion of both Government and Private revenue has been derived from the immense trade we conduct in the nations in question and the siezure of our ships bound for England and the Americas would put an even greater strain on the Belgian Economy.

Thus, unless the German government is willing to pay full compensation to the Belgian Government and/or Belgian Private Entitey effected by the siezure of Belgian ships, I fear that we will be forced into further supporting the London Treaty Alliance Members.

We hope you fully understand our position in this matter and we must rienforce the fact that we hope to still maintain warm relations with your government from now into the far future.

Signed,

Antonie Jaques Martinique
Foriegn Minister
The Federal Republic of Belgium

To the Belgian Government

While we see your desire to trade overseas with Britain and the United States and manage a way to respect it, we can not have Belgium be the breaking point in our blockade. We are trying to starve the British into realizing their faulty alliance with America, and trading with Belgian boats would effectively nullify any efforts of ours. Thus, we can not allow you to trade with those nations.

We are also curious as to why Belgium wishes to trade oveseas when a perfectly good railroad connects to all the way to China and Russia. It is even possible to trade with the Congo by switching to the Cape-Cairo rail when in Egypt.

However, discussion will be brought about possible reimbursement. Until we can make a further statement, consider trade wit Britain and the United States on hold.

We thank you for you understanding.

Who do I TG about joining

Hrstrovokia

Hrstrovokia

To: Brussels, Belgium
From: Hamburg High Command

I have hereby been ordered to ensure that no Belgian shipping shall occur in the North Sea, English Channel or Atlantic ocean for the duration of the war. No compensation shall be given as a gigantic railroad has already been constructed within your country that connects to all of Eurasia. Failure to comply will result in the sinking of Belgian ships. Further failure to comply will result in the dismantlement of the Belgian government and will be replaced with a more amicable entity that will guarentee the safety of the Working Sailor.

Hamburg High Command

Secret IC:

To the Communist Party of Belgium:

The Left Hand is very interested in ensuring the Revolution takes place in your country. For too long has Brussels been the lapdog of the Kapitalizt Schwein in Britian. Unless they begin to change their policy, consider this a guarentee of the Worker's Army's assistance.

what's 5% of a million, i keep using my calculator and keeps coming back with twenty million, now i'm an idiot but i'm not stupid enough to feild more men than i have citizens, any help?

50,000. You prolly made it 500 percent. You have make is 0.05

i did

*throws calculator out of window*

problem solved

lol spooty

OOC: once I get approved can I begin to RP or should I get Jensei (France) to OK me RPing nationalist stirrings in Burgundy

i believe burgundy is part of the Grand Duchy of Burguny shich include luxembourg

Yep, Burgundy is a collection of the fought over provinces of Alsace and Lorraine, combined with Luxembourg. It was a buffer state put in between France and Germany so that they wouldn't have a border. Now they are neutral.

OK, I was thinking that I would have to RP a war of sessesion by the people of Burgundy but OK

Of course feel free to join the pact against el cerdo del capitalista

Meh, not yet, depends how my other RPing in this effects my economy

OOC: Could we have a update on the Influenza outbreak, from VP or GB...its like Oct or Nov now...and I belive this is the point where things get ugly...

It is July Ottoman, time has slowed for the war

time is on hold at the moment, it is still July 1924, and will be until I finish posting everything that has happened and I will move immediately into August as well.

however, real life is a problem this weekend, I have a sick child, and another one having a birthday. Probably won't see much until Monday unless some things work out and I have some free time

time is on hold at the moment, it is still July 1924, and will be until I finish posting everything that has happened and I will move immediately into August as well.

however, real life is a problem this weekend, I have a sick child, and another one having a birthday. Probably won't see much until Monday unless some things work out and I have some free time

Damn real life!

BTW Galveston, do you happen to know the military strength of India in 1924? I couldn't find it anywhere. And if this question should be asked on the military thread, I'll ask it there.

To the Communist Party of Belgium:

The Left Hand is very interested in ensuring the Revolution takes place in your country. For too long has Brussels been the lapdog of the Kapitalizt Schwein in Britian. Unless they begin to change their policy, consider this a guarentee of the Worker's Army's assistance.

OCC: I'm sorry to disappoint you, but there is no such thing as a 'communist' party in Belgium. Yes, as in all developed nations, a Socialist Party does exsist, but is more oriented towards a center-left platform and is a virtual unknown in Belgian Politics/Society at this time (As most citizens tend to side with either the United Business Front or the Liberal Party, both right-wing parties).

ICC:

Bruxelles, Belgium

President François Schollaert sat alone in the east side of the Presidential Mansion, seething in worry as the fading late-evening light slowly dimmed. In his hand lay a report from the ministry of Foriegn Affairs , highlighting key points the recent German messages.

In truth, the German response did not surprise him. After all, Germany was once again in a full-fledged war and needed every advantage it could, advantages that would inevetably come into conflict with Belgian trade just like 20 years before. However, what worried François was Germany's threat to "replace" the Belgian Government, a threat he knew the German's would have no problem implementing.

Just as the old President set the small report upon the small table near his chair, the young and charismatic foriegn minister, Antonie Jaques Martinique, silently stepped into the room, careful not to disturb the President.

"I see you have read our reports." Antonie stated as he looked down with contempt towards the papers near François.

"Indeed. They are...troubling. If we are to cease our sea trade with Britian and the United States it will be a hard hit on our economy. Over the past few hours, I have been given projects for possible losses in trade as high as 650 Million Francs, losses that simply cannot be replaced, even if we convert our shipping completely to rail. However, if we fail to comply, I have no doubt the Germans and their friends in France will jump over the border and throw us into a war that we are completely unprepared for." President Schollaert grimly replied, he face now turned upwards towards his guest.

"Which is why we must play this safely, Mr. President." Antonie casually remarked as he sat himself down upon the apolstered seat opposite that of François. "After all, our economy can always be rebuilt, can always return to its former state, but if we try to stand up against the Warsaw Pact, our nation, our ideals, our people will be ruthlessly destroyed, replaced with a false dictatorship that makes a mockery of the rights of man."

François sat there for a moment, silently thinking to himself. What his Foriegn Minister had just advocated could ruin the Belgian economy, an economy that had been the center-piece of his party's agenda. But in the end, he was forced to yield to logic and smother his nationalistic frevor.

"Thank God I have people like you helping to lead this country."

"Well they have to pay me for something."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

TO:Berlin, Germany
FROM: Bruxelles, Belgium

Dear Sir(s):

After much thought to the matter, the Belgian Government has agreed to comply with the demands of the Warsaw Pact. At 12:00 AM tommorow, all Belgian civilian and/or commerical shipping is to be suspended for the duration of the conflict or until the Warsaw Pact removes its blockade on the United Kingdom and all other members of the London Treaty Alliance. We advise not fire upon any Belgian vessels in route to their homeports.

However, we would like to make one request. Currently, the Belgian Congo, situated in Central Africa, is constantly in need of manufactured supplies from the mother country to fuel the growing industry in the area. These supplies, if not transported via ship, would not be capable of reaching the Congo when needed, which would result in the unneccisary hardship of both natives and European settlers in the area. Thus, we request that Belgian Merchant vessels are to be able to ship goods to the Belgian Congo without the threat of being sunk by Warsaw Pact vessels. If you wish to monitor these vessels, you may do so, but I can assure you that their goal is only to re-supply our fellow countrymen.

We sincerely hope that you will consider our request.

Signed,

Antonie Jaques Martinique
Foriegn Minister
The Federal Republic of Belgium

Damn real life!

BTW Galveston, do you happen to know the military strength of India in 1924? I couldn't find it anywhere. And if this question should be asked on the military thread, I'll ask it there.

for my convience, and lack of any other sources I will be using the 1939 Indian Army as a start, modified suitably for appropriate technology (fewer truck units for one thing). I will post the links I have monday, its on the web.

I know Czechoslovkia is played by a player, but he has not logged on in two days and hasn't made a reply in more. Can we just assume that the Czechs joined the Pact? They kinda have no choice.

Acting-Kaiser Maximilian on behalf of the Hungarian Parliament and the Hungarian People hereby announces its support for the Union’s cause and offers the full support of the Hungarian military in any Union military action. However, the Hungarian Military will not initiate a blanket seize the property, possessions or citizens of the LTA or its allies. It does reserve the right to seize them however, if they pose a security risk to Hungary or its allies.

The Hungarian military has been fully mobilized, and the calling of reserve troops and of volunteers has begun.

Meanwhile the Freedom Party, the main right-wing group in Hungary, has called for the overthrow of the current government, even if it means occupation by Union forces. The Arrow’s Cross, (the RL Hungarian Nazi Party equivalent) has stepped up attacks on government personnel including members of Parliament.

ooc: Hungarian forces will not be actually participating in the conflict, this is merely a set up for the bloody civil war that will be sweeping the nation soon.

Although Union forces have not yet engaged the enemy in this new war, Hertzog's government immediately orders the seizure of all Pact assests in South African territory (ooc: essentially a couple of French factories and any Pact merchant ships that are in South African ports [Durban, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Mossel Bay, Luderitz]). The various arms factories begin working three shifts, in some cases hiring an entire black shift, to churn out ammunition, shells, and guns for use by Union troops and colonial African levies.

Several tractor factories seized from French companies are converted to manufacturing trucks for use by the army (generally knock-offs of British or American models; South Africa has decided it can deal with patent laws once the war is won). The remaining factories continue to produce farming equipment to speed the production of food.

Artillery and several SANS gunboats are ordered to defend the Cape and block any Pact shipping from going around southern Africa (ooc: this obviously won't hurt the Eurasian Pact, but it may hurt France's African colonies, and help keep Pact shipping from getting to Brazil, who South Africa is currently neutral towards).

There are some rumors floating around that I'm thinking of leaving E20.

They're true.

I just lost my job, have some skyrocketing bills, am short on rent, my father's been hospitalized twice in the past month and my, er, personal life is developing complications (gee, maybe from stress?). I have to cut back on entertainment and seriously focus on some realties for a while if I don't want to spend December (and possibly the rest of my life) living under a bridge.

And I don't.

I'm hoping that this will be a temporary condition, obviously. And the more temporary, the better. But equally obviously, I cannot say at the present time how long it will take me to get my RL business in order, or even if I'll be able to get my RL business in order, so I can't say how long I'll be gone. Maybe a couple days, maybe a couple weeks, maybe forever. If I'm gone more than a month you can assume the worst.

I've got some loose ends to tie up before I leave. Here's what's going to happen with that.

In Russia, the Union Supreme Council will assume emergency powers, Bukharin will resign (just can't cope with the stress of a drought, a war, and a pandemic all at once), and Trotsky will take control as Supreme Marshal and Premier. This should help Parthini, who will direct both Germany and Russia in my absence. Trotsky is very easy to research, easy to find quotes from, and it's easy to find out what he believed and thought about things. Trotsky will declare the arrival of "the Dictatorship of the Proletariat," and alter the Constitution profoundly, acclerating the merger of Russia and Germany, and formally reducing the authority of the Government at the same time as he expands the informal authority of the newly-reconstituted Communist Party. Democracy will be legally retained, but subject to extralegal Party controls that render it harmless - Trotsky's chief philosophical concession to electoral democracy and the workers' right to strike and such was that such institutions kept the bureaucracy accountable. So he'll make his specific arrangements with that in mind, rather than on the basis of any corrosive "principles" of bourgeois freedom. Market socialism will be abolished, though not stupidly. Trotsky's a radical, not an idiot. He's brilliant, idealistic, charismatic, and ruthless. The market will be replaced by a socialist redistribution network controlled by pseudo-governmental authorities whose duty is to realize the maxim, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." There will be universal employment (including women, I might add, who also serve in the military in the same jobs as men, provided they can physically perform them), and during the war, the entire economy will be organized to defeating the Imperialists who would enslave us. Propaganda and information control will be expanded enormously. The war will be declared "The Ultimate Revolution" and I would expect as a historian that national morale would remain pretty high under these circumstances. The main dissident class, Ukrainian kulaks and other muzhiks, is about to get eviscerated by the Pandemic (see next post), and Socialist ideology has already had nearly ten years to work on them. Industrial workers in the historical Soviet Union were known early on for their enthusiasm, and the military hasn't been decimated by Purges as of yet. Anyway.

Like I say, I hope to come back. I don't necessarily expect there to still be a country waiting for me when I do (I remember what happened to Kordo - hell, I happened to Kordo). But I have my hopes.

And if I don't make it back, thanks for letting me play this with you guys. And I've appreciated all your support.

Do svidaniya.

good luck.

Casualties for 1924-26 Pandemic


The Top Ten for 1924, in order (47.75m):

China - 22m
India - 14m
Russia - 3.7m (disproportionately Ukrainian)
Japan - 1.95m
Ottoman Empire - 1.4m
United States - 1.25m
United Kingdom - 800k (disproportionately Welsh and Scots)
Spain - 750k
Germany - 700k
Brazil/Italy - 600k

Full Casualty Breakdown by Country
Albania - 40k
Argentina - 150k
Australia - 180k
Belgian Africa (Congo) - 200k
Belgium - 300k (all poor)
Bolivia - 45k
Brazil - 600k
Bulgaria - 75k
Burgundy - 20k
Chile - 90k
China - 22m
Colombia - 210k
Czechoslovakia - 14k
Denmark - 60k
Ecuador - 40k
France - 400k
Germany - 700k
Greece - 100k
Haiti - 40k
Hungary - 160k
India (including Pakistan and Bangladesh) - 14.4m
Ireland - 120k
Italy - 600k
Italian Africa (Libya) - 20k
Japan - 1.95m
Korea - 450k
Ottoman Empire - 1.4m
Palestine - 80k
Romania - 150k
Russia (including all territories of the former Empire) - 3.7m (disproportionately Ukrainian)
South Africa - 320k (disproportionately Black)
Spain - 750k
United Kingdom - 800k (disproportionately Welsh and Scots)
United States - 1.25m
Yugoslavia - 180k
Zion - 15k

Other than Belgian Africa, Africa is not included, because it was too much work to sort through all the individual modern countries on the population website I was going by, and also because, of course, no-one cares.

Here's how I determined it:

Generally, one fifth of a country's population is afflicted if it's on a major disease vector

One tenth of a country's population is affected if it's not on a major disease vector

Of those afflicted, approximately one fifth will die if not given modern medical care

Modern medical care, however, can reduce deaths by anywhere from one-quarter to three-quarters

Countries on Major Disease Vectors (Chiefly by Trade, Proximity, or Recent Conflict)
Albania
Australia
Belgium
Brazil
British Africa
Burgundy
China
Colombia
Denmark
France
Germany
Great Britain (and British Africa, Canada, and the rest of the Commonwealth)
India
Japan
Ottoman Empire
Palestine
Russia (including Ukraine, etc.)
South Africa
United States

Countries with High Quality Medical Care
France
Germany
United States

Countries with Good Medical Care
Burgundy
Czechoslovakia
Denmark
Russia
United Kingdom (High Quality in England weighed down by poorer care in Scotland and Wales)

Countries with Existing Medical Care
Argentina
Australia (including New Zealand)
Brazil (improved but overtaxed due to Civil War)
Bulgaria
Colombia
Italy
Japan
Korea
Romania
Spain
Yugoslavia
Zion

Countries with Poor Medical Care
Albania
Belgian Africa
Belgium (ultra-capitalist ideology prevents decent care for the poor)
Bolivia
British Africa
Chile
China
Ecuador
French Africa
Greece
Haiti
Hungary
India
Ireland
Ottoman Empire
Palestine
South Africa (racist ideology prevents decent care for the poor)

Country Populations (Estimated for mid-1920's - pre-Pandemic)
Albania - 1m
Argentina - 10m
Australia - 6m
Belgian Africa (Congo) - 10m
Belgium - 7.5m
Bolivia - 2.25m
Brazil - 30m
British Africa
Bulgaria - 5m
Burgundy - 1m
Chile - 4.5m
China - 550m
Colombia - 7m
Czechoslovakia - 14m
Denmark - 3m
Ecuador - 2m
France - 40m
French Africa
Germany - 70m
Greece - 5m
Haiti - 2m
Hungary - 8m
India (including Pakistan and Bangladesh) - 360m
Ireland - 3m
Italy - 40m
Italian Africa (Libya) - 1m
Japan - 65m
Korea - 30m
Ottoman Empire - 35m
Palestine - 2m
Romania - 10m
Russia (including all territories of the former Empire) - 185m
South Africa - 8m
Spain - 25m
United Kingdom - 40m
United States - 125m
Yugoslavia - 12m
Zion - 1m

Casualty Breakdown by Country and Percentage of Population
Albania (4%)
Argentina (1.5%)
Australia (3%)
Belgian Africa (2%)
Belgium (4%)
Bolivia (2%)
Brazil (2%)
British Africa (2%)
Bulgaria (1.5%)
Burgundy (2%)
Chile (2%)
China (4%)
Colombia (3%)
Czechoslovakia (1%)
Denmark (2%)
Ecuador (2%)
France (1%)
French Africa (2%)
Germany (1%)
Greece (2%)
Haiti (2%)
Hungary (2%)
India (4%)
Ireland (4%)
Italy (1.5%)
Japan (3%)
Korea (1.5%)
Ottoman Empire (4%)
Palestine (4%)
Romania (1.5%)
Russia (2%)
South Africa (4%)
Spain (3%)
United Kingdom (2%)
United States (1%)
Yugoslavia (1.5%)
Zion (1.5%)

Wow, sorry to hear about what's happened to you. I hope that you get back on your feet soon. It's been great Rping with you and I know that E20 would hav ehad a hard time getting off the groun dwithout you.

Good luck for the future, and I hope we see you back again soon (I'm sure there'll always be a country waiting for you!).

yes, Vas leaving is a real problem. I propose the following. A freeze in time until Friday. Everyone posts their military forces in the World War II thread so I can access them without having to spend hours searching for them (this has been a serious problem).

World War II thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448361

I will post source links I insist people use to base their military forces on. Navies stay as is, but Air Forces and Armies should look reasonably close to the source links

Military Thread
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=427277

Time frame for the pandemic ... it started in India, figure 3 months to reach into all neighboring countries, the UK, North America, Austrlia, and Africa. Then another 3 months to engulf Europe, Oceania and the rest of Asia and Latin America.

Based on the fact that it moves relatively slowly overland, but quickly along rail lines, shipping routes etc, and naturally the UK and South Africa would get it first. It will move from its initial foci to the places that have the most access to India.. the UK and its colonies, and since the UK is the major trading partner with the US (60% of its trade) it will then move to North America and spread from there to Latin America and Oceania / Japan. It moves overland into Asia, and once it reaches Turkey and Russia, moves quickly by rail and ship to Europe. In other words, by August its in the initial wave of countries, and by November its in Europe and the rest of the world.

It will rage for about 3 months in each country as it hits as well.

Wartime censorship will prevent a lot of warning reaching people either, but on the plus side, it will prevent much panic. Nations not at war will either have to ensure censorship, or deal with a certain amount of panic. It will severely affect mobilization, so essentially during the three months its hitting your nation figure economic productivity is halved for that period.

Which will mess up everyones plans to a degree.

Then it will recur every year for two years, but the initial staggering death rates will drop significantly (as the most vulnerable die in the initial shock) and better understanding of treatment will be in effect, and the little monster of a virus mutates into something less deadly (as they are prone to do thank god).

As a Civ Player, I should be wetting my pants.

But I'm not. I really fucking hope stuff gets better. Hell, if not for the RP, for yourself.

Viel Glück mein Freund (ok, I cheated and got an online translator :rolleyes: )

shit dude that sucks, hope your life gets better man and hopefully see you back round E20 soon.

Goodbye Vas, you have been a truly honest and fair person on here and I thank you for the fun you've let myself, and doubtless the whole of E20 have. Really do hope you get back soon, best of luck mate. :)

*looks as possibility of Russian backing in Communist Rebellion in India disappears*

Well, that certainly changes my plans for the future...

Haha! You think I will not carry on the role of Revolution? Through the image of VP I will carry the Will of the People from Sea to Frozen Sea! Iberia to Manchuria!

Yeah. After all, the other Commies are still here. :cool:

Its sad to see you go Vas, hope your come back soon and hope things get well for you.

So long, Comrade VP. It is too bad that I don't get to smite you in this war =p [/overconfidence]

Anyways, I have some news of my own. My dad (who I think has just lost his mind or something) is looking for a job in Ohio. And from what he said, he has a good chance of getting it. Now, I live in Virginia, and, over the years, I have become accustomed to moving. I have lived in Texas (born there), Japan, Alabama, and two counties in Virginia. But this is crazy; my last move was right around 9 weeks ago. All the others were at least a year or so a part. (Or, in some cases, 10 tens)

So, who knows how this is going to end up? If anything happens, we are going to move this month. It could just be a false alarm, but who knows?

Vas, I'd just like to add taht I will miss you. You're an excellent roleplayer and I hope that in a month or two I'll be able to hand the moderator hat back to you.

It is a pity you must leave VP.

I wish you luck in solving your innumerable problems and hope you will be able to return to a normal lifestyle as soon as possible.

But until then, as I guess they would say in Belgium: Vaarwel

Well Vas we went from foe to friend in what short time weve been rping here and im glad i got the chance to rp with you as both an enemyand an ally. I wich you the best on your endeavours and may your life bring you present surprises.

*shits pants and realizes he'll have to make sure Parth doesnt indulge his fascist tendencys*

I'm sorry to hear about your problems, Vas. I wish you luck solving them, and hope that everything works out soon.

Guys, follow my example in creating a catalog of military stuff for each one of your nations.

Here's the link to my example put up in Military thread. This should make GB's job *much* easier, especially with all the stuff going on in his RL life and here at NS with being a War Moderator and all.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9782022&postcount=588

After reading the latest, I must raise some serious objections.

1. Colombia tech level 5? I find that extremely difficult to believe. I can see Colombia being tech level 3.5 - 4, with the Panama Canal and substantial US investments. However, not tech level 5 as I shall explain below.

2. China only tech level 4, and Colombia one level above it in economy and technology? China has undertaken much more extensive modernization efforts than Colombia, and has far more resources to do so than Colombia. If anything, China should be tech level 5, with an economy of at least "Good".

3. Various other nations seem to jump ahead a lot.

Albania is undergoing a coup, so it should have poor economy and tech level should drop a bit due to loss of infrastucture in the civil war.

I'd like to know why Chile is Tech level 4. I'm willing to go with Chile being a tech level 4 if it has been getting substantial investments. However, I haven't seen Chile RP much of anything, even modernization efforts, unlike some players like China, Ottomans, Brazil, etc. who post their modernization efforts in the main thread or in the various news threads.



Basically, Colombia's uber-jump to Tech Level 5 and Good+ economy simply smells fishy if other nations such as China, Ottomans, etc. are not given similiar advances based on their *intensive* and RP'ed out modernization processes.

I agree with Sharina. Colombia becoming Tech Level 5 and equivalent with France and several other powerful European countries? Doesn't seem likely. I also think that Albania should be lower. They just got over a civil war about five-ten years ago and have just undergone a coup. Shouldn't that affect it at all?

Sharina and Jensai, replied to both of you as well in the economics thread. Last complete update was in 1920, and that was 6 weeks ago in real time. I haven't completed the update for 1924 yet (essentially where everyone is at the start of the war).

I hadn't originally planned to do another update until 1925, but events have overtaken that.. oh well.

However, when I did update this thread last time, Vas agreed with me on the ratings, and that was over a month ago in real time. Colombia has been investing a lot of money (and had a lot of investment to start with) to jump start, and is more like Japan than a Latin American country we are familiar with in our timeline.

Chile has had free trade with the United States since 1902, and has built up a bit of industry to support its exports (primarily copper, which would lead to a metals industry, and the support industry for that). The US has also invested heavily there, so Chile ranks up with some of the smaller European countries in industrial development.

Albania before it nearly got invaded was getting a lot of foreign investment (none of which was from me...but look at his old threads). That obviously has dried up (as will nearly ALL investment from the big economic nations into neutral nations due to the war). So Albania has been making steps forward and steps backward. I gave it the rating I did because of all that investment and what he specifically indicated he was doing (before he was axed). Now as a npc nation that growth will slow considerably.

China was last rated at tech level 4 for the reasons I posted when I gave it that rating. It has a rather large industrial plant now, true, but the overwhelming majority of its people live pretty much as they have for thousands of years. In our timeline, even though China has grown hugely since the 1980s, hundreds of millions (over half) live in rural poverty. China's problem is its huge rural population, which like in India and the Ottoman Empire, mostly live by subsistance farming and aren't really productive in the overall economy. That acts as a huge brake on their overall economic rating. Russia has a similar problem, but is smaller in proportion and in overall numbers. It was also way ahead of China and India in 1900 in industrial and economic development. However, China will catch up with Russia within a generation at this rate. In real life as well.

The leading nations by the way are about to reach tech level 6 (US, UK first, then France and Germany, then Russia, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden, Czechslovkia (the Czech part) and will all do so before the end of the war. The other nations are going to be well behind them in scientific development.

Global wars have a tendancy to accelerate advancements in a large number of fields after all.

When I update China will move up to tech level 5 by the way.

I do know for a fact that in our real timeline, China will reach technological parity with the USA by 2010 - 2020.

Also, should I stay out of the war, I will implement reforms to China's farming sector to reduce the subsistence farming and replace it with farming similiar to the USA, Canada, and Australia. This should reduce the "brake drag" on China's technological, economic, and science development.

Also, another reason (my second major one actually) why I was somewhat miffed that China wasn't tech level 5 was because Galveston Bay said I could build battleships, Yamatos, tanks, planes, zeppelins, etc. and I believe those are Tech Level 5.

(I'll cross post this in the Economic thread)

Sharina, I believe you are a special case...

3/4's of your country is backwards... while the 1/4 is dragging it kicking and screaming into the 20th century. Meaning that you can build level 5 stuff... not as much, and not as fast. In all definition you are level 5, but if 3/4's of your country is like... level 2.... c'mon. But don't worry, we all know you are advanced.

And whats this about Colombia not doing massive reforms? I've done quite a bit I think... namely preventing my cashcow from seceeding ;)

I do know for a fact that in our real timeline, China will reach technological parity with the USA by 2010 - 2020.

Also, should I stay out of the war, I will implement reforms to China's farming sector to reduce the subsistence farming and replace it with farming similiar to the USA, Canada, and Australia. This should reduce the "brake drag" on China's technological, economic, and science development.

Also, another reason (my second major one actually) why I was somewhat miffed that China wasn't tech level 5 was because Galveston Bay said I could build battleships, Yamatos, tanks, planes, zeppelins, etc. and I believe those are Tech Level 5.

(I'll cross post this in the Economic thread)

the only problem with the farm reform is that for example Western Europe and the US have only about 30% of their population in agriculture by 1925, and by 2000 only 5% of their population in the agricultural sector, while China has about 80% of its population living in substistance farming in 1925. That is an awful lot of people to find jobs for. Gradual is the way to go for China.

And yes those things are tech level 5 and I have been letting you build them, which implies that you are indeed tech level 5... it simply hasn't been changed on the main economics thread yet

OOC: Just checking, because I haven't seen any time update recently:

1: What is the date in game?

2: When will the Argentina Expeditionary Force arrive and assemble in South Africa?

3: Has anyone else had trouble logging onto the forums?

OOC: Just checking, because I haven't seen any time update recently:

1: What is the date in game?

2: When will the Argentina Expeditionary Force arrive and assemble in South Africa?

3: Has anyone else had trouble logging onto the forums?

it is July 31, 1924 at this time, and the Argentine Expeditionary Force (FEA?) is loading up on ships in Buenas Aires at the moment and will be crossing the South Atlantic soon.

and yes, the link from the Jennifer government page to the forums is apparently what is broken at the moment.

OOC: Just checking, because I haven't seen any time update recently:

1: What is the date in game?

2: When will the Argentina Expeditionary Force arrive and assemble in South Africa?

3: Has anyone else had trouble logging onto the forums?

3. Yes I have. I can't even get on the forums as Gintonpar :(

the only problem with the farm reform is that for example Western Europe and the US have only about 30% of their population in agriculture by 1925, and by 2000 only 5% of their population in the agricultural sector, while China has about 80% of its population living in substistance farming in 1925. That is an awful lot of people to find jobs for. Gradual is the way to go for China.

And yes those things are tech level 5 and I have been letting you build them, which implies that you are indeed tech level 5... it simply hasn't been changed on the main economics thread yet

I can see three possible areas where these subsistence farmers can find new employment in.

1. Public Works projects, exactly like USA's New Deal programs- they gave millions of new jobs to USA people, pulling them out of the Great Depression. Building dams, highways, railroads, factories, and other modernization efforts should provide lots of new jobs.

2. The military. This should allow China to increase its military somewhat, from 1 million total to somewhere like 10 - 15 million (like the USA, but a lower fraction of total population than the USA's ratio). Most of the increase will be in infantry, garrisons, etc. for mostly defensive purposes.

3. New jobs in the newly built factories, shipyards, weapon plants, mines, etc. After the war-time is finished, the Chinese workers can convert to automobile, electronics, aerospace, medicine, or other labor-intensive civilian industries. I know computers probably won't be invented until the 1940's or so, but electronics as in China's ongoing electrification efforts should provide at least an ample source of employment- building all the wires, power plants, maintainence of the electricty power grid, and so forth.

I'm having lot's of problems with the forums. Heck, on my home computer it says that I'm banned. I'm posting everything from my dad's laptop or the library.

I'm having lot's of problems with the forums. Heck, on my home computer it says that I'm banned. I'm posting everything from my dad's laptop or the library.

Same, its rather annoying. argggg can't log on to forums as Gintonpar :(

Sharina, I believe you are a special case...

3/4's of your country is backwards... while the 1/4 is dragging it kicking and screaming into the 20th century. Meaning that you can build level 5 stuff... not as much, and not as fast. In all definition you are level 5, but if 3/4's of your country is like... level 2.... c'mon. But don't worry, we all know you are advanced.

And whats this about Colombia not doing massive reforms? I've done quite a bit I think... namely preventing my cashcow from seceeding ;)

Columbia has a pretty big chunk of the population that lives in the country side with no power and without much in the ways of roads etc, plus has a very corrupt government(in RL, don't know what yours is like) so i think based on Sharina is more than qualified for being at least level 5 if not more, as i see them as more advanced as Columbia(no offence meant by that) since i don't see Columbia as able to build massive ships of Aircraft carrier size, or things of that nature as China is doing.

Columbia has a pretty big chunk of the population that lives in the country side with no power and without much in the ways of roads etc, plus has a very corrupt government(in RL, don't know what yours is like) so i think based on Sharina is more than qualified for being at least level 5 if not more, as i see them as more advanced as Columbia(no offence meant by that) since i don't see Columbia as able to build massive ships of Aircraft carrier size, or things of that nature as China is doing.

Japan was the same way in 1880 and by 1900 they were an industrial power. Colombia has been spending the money, getting the investments and I already said China was tech level 5.... and only has a population of about 7 million instead of 400 million (China in 1900), and is also much smaller in area. Most of the Colombian population is clustered in the highlands around a few medium sized cities, or living in the narrow cluster around the Panama canal.

It was posted in the Second great war thread that French Guiana was invaded. What is going to happen to it? Also, GB, what ever happened in the Sucre Conference?

It was posted in the Second great war thread that French Guiana was invaded. What is going to happen to it? Also, GB, what ever happened in the Sucre Conference?

French Guiana is currently occupied by Colombian troops, plus the US naval base remains in place. I asked for specific proposals from you regarding what your goals where, so I could figure out what the neutrals would do.

I will begin posting war news on Friday.... results for August, September, and October will be posted at that time, and to make life easier, I will be posting things by theater of operations (see Second Great War thread for details)

Hope to have everything for 1924 done by Monday

Brace yourselves for a lot of casualties

casualties? Our plan was fool proof! The french die, and me and germany walk over Italy, that was the plan!

French Guiana is currently occupied by Colombian troops, plus the US naval base remains in place. I asked for specific proposals from you regarding what your goals where, so I could figure out what the neutrals would do.

I did post that in my thread.

Cause Macedonia, ya know that people in Colombia love to live in jungles and such? It is not the same at all as China.

And comparing RL Modern Colombia with a 1925 alternate history colombia is rediculous... besides, the US built our carriers.

Cause Macedonia, ya know that people in Colombia love to live in jungles and such? It is not the same at all as China.

And comparing RL Modern Colombia with a 1925 alternate history colombia is rediculous... besides, the US built our carriers.

I wasn't saying they didn't, but tech level 5's can build there own carriers :P

I don't have the facilities though; My two shipyards can only handle building cruisers and battlecruisers... Carriers would be to complex and they would prolly mess it up.

i know, which is one of the points in my topic, not that is matters now.

Japan was the same way in 1880 and by 1900 they were an industrial power. Colombia has been spending the money, getting the investments and I already said China was tech level 5.... and only has a population of about 7 million instead of 400 million (China in 1900), and is also much smaller in area. Most of the Colombian population is clustered in the highlands around a few medium sized cities, or living in the narrow cluster around the Panama canal.

One more issue I'd like to bring up.

Japan modernized pretty quickly for a 50 - 60 million population nation *without* any significant indigieous natural resources. Japan has to rely on imports of raw resources for its economy. There's neligible minerals, metals, and resources in Japan according to the CIA factbook.

For China, it has access to far more natural resources than Japan. China has resources in Mongolia, Manchuria, the Himalayas, and the recently (within the past 4 game years) Cambodia, Laos, and now Vietnam.

So if China can adopt Japan's method to rapidly industrialize and modernize- It is perfectly possible to get a majority of China's population to modern standards and living. Japan has very little arable land, relies on fishing or food imports to feed its people, and it's concentrated population (60 million people in a land size of Montana).

China has a lot more farmland and arable land than Japan, has lots more land for "roomy" areas for its population (China is the size of the USA), lots more natural resources, and so forth. This should allow China to catch up to the Tech 6 nations by 1935 - 1940, just like Japan caught up with the US / UK / Germany in terms of tech and military prowess.

Japan was a far different society than China was at the time it industrialized, and read on the Shoganate, why it existed, and how much Japan was like a lot of Europe was in the 16th Century when it chose to isolate itself.

I have given you tech level 5 Sharina. You have not given me any convincing reason backed by historical evidence with links to change my mind. I am also getting tired of argueing with someone everytime one of you disagrees with my ruling, or post.

I have on many occasions during this roleplay explained my reasoning. Either you trust me to rule on economics and military affairs, or you don't.

If you don't then I am not going to further waste my time and participate in this roleplay. I have given you my background and why I know what I am talking about as a general rule on 20th Century World and Military history.

Earlier you posted that it is a fact that China will equal the US in tech level in 2010-2020... that is conjectural, unproven, and you failed to cite a source (to give an example). The US Air Force 2020 Doctrine Manual for one believes that China will be where the US is in 1990 in the year 2020. A still very considerable gap.

China historically began industrializing in the 1920s in Manchuria because of Japanese investment. It then lost 30 years to war and revolution. So it started again in the 1950s with Russian help, then lost a decade because of the Cultural Revolution. It finally began industrializing yet again in the early 1980s. At this time, after 25 years, China has not caught up with a semi collapsed Russia, or Germany, and is far below the US and Japan in GDP, raw power and productive capacity.

So that is very analagous to where we are in this game. China starts off in 1900 in this game, and it has been 25 years. I have rated you exactly where China rates in real life based on that time line and that effort to the US, Japan, British etc on 1925. Your nation actually has even more handicaps in some ways than Communist China did. For one thing, you do not have a command economy, and have numerous built in inefficiencies that cannot be avoided in an essentially feudal society with a thin patena of capitalism added to it. So if anything, I have probably rated China better than it should be.

At the start of this RP and from that time on we have tried to play it as accurately as we can. I have very lenient numerous times on economic issues, realizing that most of the players in this RP either little or no college, and although well read for your age, you still have not studied upper division sociology, anthropology, historical anthropology, or global studies. So as a referee goes, I think I am trying to stick with the original premise of this RP.

A alternate history of the 20th Century based as closely as possible to what was likely to have happened. Sometimes that makes difficult for players to 'win', but this RP isn't just about winning. Or at least so I thought.

GB, I do realize that China won't be as advanced as the USA anytime soon. I'm only restating what you personally told me a couple months ago- you said that it was possible for China to catch up with Europe and the USA by 1940 or so. I'm happy with China being Tech Level 5 at this point in time. I will not press that matter any further- I'm just happy to have that. I was only suggesting and offering why I believe that it will be possible for China to catch up to the "First World" powers by 1940 or so like you told me a while ago. I'm not going to press for China = Tech Level 5.5 or China = Strong economy- I'm settling for Tech Level 5, thats all.

I have repeatedly asked VP to give me suggestions how or what to do to improve my government, economy, and efficiency. Yet, I haven't got any suggestions or such from him- he told me he'd give me suggestions soon, but now with him gone, that's out of the window. The one thing I don't want to do with China in this timeline is going communist, because I do not want to have a Communist China OOC'ly. I want to have a different China- either an Constitutional Monarchy (like UK) or a democracy (like the USA) yet keep the Emperor and dynasty intact. I want to see an Emperor and dynasty succeed with a modern China. I want to preserve the Chinese mystique, basically what makes China unique, and not turn it into an exact copy-cat of the USA or UK.

I would like to know what weaknesses and such I need to address with the Chinese government to make it more effective for the modern world. I only challenged your rulings on the Colombia issue and the aircraft carrier thing because I wanted to know how these things were possible.

As for the RL China catching up with the USA- I keep seeing these shows on Modern Marvels, History Channel, and Discovery Channel that explains how China is doing modern things like mag-lev trains, developing its automobile sector, possessing nuclear technology, sending its first satellites, and so forth. I have also read that the USA is failing and in a sort of decline with its education, healthcare, and domestic systems falling behind the rest of the world.

According to this website...

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

The website says that the USA is falling fast- lower than most nations in terms of healthcare, education, poverty, etc. If the USA continues on this trend, it means China can catch up quickly by 2020 or so.

Thus, that is where I acquired my extrapolation and prediction that China will equal the USA by 2020- from that website and the various History / Discovery channel shows talking about modernization, global events, technologies, and such.

-------------------------------------
GB, I would like to apologize if I stepped on your toes. I'm just eager to see what a non-communist China can do in a modern world such as today (or the 20th century).

I'm thinking more and more of turning China into a Constitutional Monarchy like the UK- but keep the Emperor as a President of sorts, like the USA. Will that work?

A quick addition, of particular attention in that article link I posted in the post above this one...

The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

Japan, China, Taiwan, and South Korea hold 40 percent of our government debt. (That's why we talk nice to them.) "By helping keep mortgage rates from rising, China has come to play an enormous and little-noticed role in sustaining the American housing boom" (NYT, Dec. 4, 2004). Read that twice. We owe our housing boom to China, because they want us to keep buying all that stuff they manufacture.

See what I'm getting at? Combine that with falling standards in US education, healthcare, services, etc... rude surprise for the USA in 2020+.

A quick addition, of particular attention in that article link I posted in the post above this one...





See what I'm getting at? Combine that with falling standards in US education, healthcare, services, etc... rude surprise for the USA in 2020+.


apples and oranges.


Irrelevant to the current RP

apples and oranges.


Irrelevant to the current RP

That was in response to GB's statement as follows...

Earlier you posted that it is a fact that China will equal the US in tech level in 2010-2020... that is conjectural, unproven, and you failed to cite a source (to give an example). The US Air Force 2020 Doctrine Manual for one believes that China will be where the US is in 1990 in the year 2020. A still very considerable gap.

Things could get very ugly in the near future... Expo 1925 in Dunedin, New Zealand has been called off... Olympic Games in Amsterdam were over shadowed by the war and by the events of the world...

This has been a rough year for everyone in this world... 1925 at this point may not look much better for anyone with the 2nd Great War and the pandemic from India spreading all over the world...It looks like this next year will be a telling year for several nations...

GB, you happen to find the India stats?

GB, you happen to find the India stats?


http://web.archive.org/web/20030407000242/home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/india.html

which all together make up 4 corps initially, and 6 more can be raised (which take a year)... that works out to be 12 divisions initially, with another 18 that can be raised.

Theater Commander is General Sir Charles Munro Horne, and senior field commander is General Lord Cavan. British general and colonels still command all Indian units but an increasing number of capable junior and middle ranking Indian officers are being trained and replacing the formerly entirely British officer corps.

Why are we talking about 2010? It holds no purpose in an Alternate History RP...

http://web.archive.org/web/20030407000242/home.adelphia.net/~dryan67/orders/india.html

which all together make up 4 corps initially, and 6 more can be raised (which take a year)... that works out to be 12 divisions initially, with another 18 that can be raised.

Theater Commander is General Sir Charles Munro Horne, and senior field commander is General Lord Cavan. British general and colonels still command all Indian units but an increasing number of capable junior and middle ranking Indian officers are being trained and replacing the formerly entirely British officer corps.

Thank ye muchly!

So am I using 1939 stats?

India: I believe that GB means use the 1939 Indian Army Organisation and size (it's much easier to get hold of than 1925 info). But to use the standard 20's technology stuff in place of the things listed, though we have been allowed up to 1932 inventions for some things (but I don't think ships are included as they take too long to build etc.). Hope that makes at least a bit of sense!

Why are we talking about 2010? It holds no purpose in an Alternate History RP...

I was only using the RL 2010 - 2020 scenario as an example how China (or any backwards nation) can catch up with the best of the best, namely the USA. It's true that the RL USA is in a decline of sorts- as evidenced by the link I provided. I know this may not happen in this timeline, but the possibility does remain that China *can* become just as good as the Western Powers if enough effort is put into it.

I'm not trying to rush things- I am perfectly happy with its current status as Tech Level 5, and its economy. I will *not* push GB any further on this issue- and I apologize to him again if I pushed him too far the past few days. Sometimes my eagerness and zealousness about having a non-communist China emerge as a world power, as well as my over-enthuaism about participating in alternate history storys gets the better of me. Sometimes I get too eager and either "talk over" what people like GB are trying to say, and sometimes I get a little pushy when things happen or "are as they are" for reasons I don't understand in detail *at first*. I am, however, fully willing to own up to my mistakes and learn new things. So please be patient with me- I do not mean to piss anyone off intentionally, nor do I want GB to leave this RP becaue he's a hell of a great player, and I realize he has a lot on his plate.

Thus, GB, will you accept my apology? :)

---------------------------------------

As per GB's request for "evidence" or clarification to back up my modernization efforts in China, allow me to present my case. I am only summarizing what my China had / went through since 1900, and this is *not* intended to piss GB or anyone off as I am only answering GB's request for a case why China should be Tech Level 5. Again, I am not going to push for more stuff for China at this point, as I am perfectly happy with the concession GB made.



First, China emerged victorious in the Boxer Rebellion, as in a new dynasty, a new stable leadership, and much less interference from Europeans (and USA) in China in the 1900's. China grew to good terms with some Westerner nations, like Britain, Germany, Russia, USA, Japan, etc. In turn, they helped invest in China, allowing China to put the money it got into its economy and infrastructure.

Second, Britain and USA helped China acquire the "know-how" and understanding how to construct viable and efficient railroad networks. This was during the 1900's, way before the whole LTA v.s. Pact thing. This allowed China to build 25,000 miles of railroad, as GB said by 1920 while in RL China had something like 5,000 miles of railroad by RL 1920.

Third, with such an railroad network in place, this allows for more mass-transport of goods, passengers, resources, and material between major Chinese cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Canton, Tienstin, etc. This also allows for ore to be shipped from China's mines in the Himalayas and Mongolia, as well as resources from Manchuria to reach China's newly built factories and industries more easily than on horse-drawn carriages or large caravans.

Fourh, GB stated that my China had far more political stability in this alternate timeline than in RL timeline between 1901 (end of rebellion) and 1920's. This should mean that the stable political system should allow for maintained growth and expansion of China. The economy benefits from stable leadership, instead of constant infighting, war, revolutions, rebellions, etc. This encouraged China's economy to grow between 1901 - present day (1924 / 25).

Fifth, I stated quite a number of reforms, and GB or VP had accepted or recongized them. Some of them include automobiles, planes, more railroads, dam-building projects, beginning of electrification of Chinese cities, highways (with Italian help), efforts to bring local democracy at the town / city level- more will be explained in a bit- and so forth.

Finally, China has acquired ample knowledge from Germany, Russia, France, Britain, and Italy. China is putting all that knowledge to good use and practical purposes. For instance, Britain sold China factory machinery and electricity machines- then China learned how to use and build these. Same thing for Italian automobiles, German zeppelins and weapons, Russian construction equipment, French airplanes, and so forth. Its easier for nations to catch up with pioneers (like the USA, UK, or Germany) because of two reasons- they know "it" can be done after the first nation does "it", and in the case of trade or alliances the How-To-Do-It of "it" is usually shared. "it" being a technology, government system, solution to a problem, engineering feat, or a plethora of other things.

I hope this summary of my China and how it has advanced and expanded will help answer the questions you may have, GB. If there are any other questions, I would be more than happy to try to answer them to the best of my ability.

--------------------------------------

As for the government thing, I have been doing some thinking.

I've reached an impasse of sorts as I can't decide which government system to go for.

1. Constitutional Monarchy (A blend of USA democracy with the "President" being the Chinese Emperor with veto power)

2. Facism (Because it helped propel Germany from a wrecked nation in 1920's to a powerful nation by the late 1930's)

I'd really like feedback on this- from GB and any other players here with a good government / politic background or understanding. Please share any positive or negative traits of both systems, and what improvements or worse it will bring over the current classical Imperial system. I would *really* like to know, so I can try to implement it during the Great War 2, and see how it goes.

----------------------------------

Thanks for taking your time to read this long post, and your patience with reading my summary, apology to GB, and my questions. I just have so much excitement about this, I can't help but ramble or get all hyper about it. :)

India: I believe that GB means use the 1939 Indian Army Organisation and size (it's much easier to get hold of than 1925 info). But to use the standard 20's technology stuff in place of the things listed, though we have been allowed up to 1932 inventions for some things (but I don't think ships are included as they take too long to build etc.). Hope that makes at least a bit of sense!

That's what I meant.

Thanks.

Is a second moderator going to be installed to replace Vas can I ask? Just seems a lot for GB alone to handle. I don't know anybody else who is qualified of course but if anybody does it would help to have a replacement for Vas as GB seems to be taking most of the decisions now.

This is Gintonpar btw.

The Brazilian Government is pulling out of the war and accepting the 5Billion US dollars and cutting off of aid to the rebels. Our country is choking under blockade and we can do nothing useful to aid our allies whilst under it. We apologise profusely to our allies but we cannot go on fighting a war where we cannot even strike back at the enemy.

ooc: I have also telegrammed Parthini about this.

i think Jensai has been selected as a mod by Sharina and Vas, though i don't know if GB ever selected him as well. That will kind of leave the mod staff a little lop-sided towards the pact(which technically china is not a part of), but i trust Sharina and Jensai to be objective, as i do GB.

i think Jensai has been selected as a mod by Sharina and Vas, though i don't know if GB ever selected him as well. That will kind of leave the mod staff a little lop-sided towards the pact(which technically china is not a part of), but i trust Sharina and Jensai to be objective, as i do GB.

Thanks. I'll try my best. Right now, China is friendly to the Pact because of French actions with selling Camodia and Laos to China and France giving China the know-how to build airplanes, German help with giving China with the know-how to build zeppelins and weapons of war, and Russia because it helped China with construction machinery.

However, China *will not* go to war aganist the LTA- it will be the LTA that initiates war aganist China. My China knows that an LTA first-strike invasion action aganist China would destroy the LTA's image of innocence "defenders, not attackers". Therefore, China will only go to war should it be attacked.

So technically, I'm a neutral party, while GB is LTA and Jensai is Pact.

found a pretty good site with information for most years of a countries history(found out i would have about 13 million in 1925)

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/Europe/europe.html

just thought i would pass it on
these are just a few countries i did the math for
EUROPEAN POP(probably should be inflated to account for the lesser number of deaths in the 1st great war, and no genocides that may have been going on)
Belgium=7,744,300
Bulgaria=5,368,000
Czechoslovakia=9,701,500
France=40,581,000
Union(includes Germany, Denmark, Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Georgia and Poland)=at least 229,038,100 i may have messed up and left out one of the nations that are in the union.
Greece=6,041,500
Hungary=8,341,600
Italy=39,693,000
Portugal=6,446,000
UK=44,885,600

There appears to be a debate concerning China and America in the future, with lip service paid to education. I have traveled this country (America), and I have seen things that need to be changed.

Education, as I am 16 and still in high school, needs to be fixed in a bad way. We Americans need to standardize (in some way) education, so that all the bad educational experiences I have been through are not inflicted on others. How would you, an honors student taking the highest-level classes available and earning college credit, like to be told that your science class at a previous school doesn't count because it is not in the book? Or that because of this class it is possible that you won't be graduating due to incompetent guidance counselors? Or that roughly 1/3 of all of your 9th grade credit doesn't count, and that you'll have to take some of them again?

Now, while this last one doesn't concern economics (or so I think...), I feel we need some standardization concerning driver's education. And that any behind-the-wheel portion should be administered *immediatly* after classroom instruction. Because of stupid things concerning this, we had to pay $300 or so on driver's ed in Alabama (to lower insurance), only to end up needing to pay $200 for driver's ed in Virginia. And, as it is likely I'm going to move to Ohio, it is very likely that I will have to pay for driver's ed (unless it is free) again. I have come up with a new strategy for paying for driver's ed, and it involves selling candy to the kids at my school. You'd be surprised at how much someone is willing to pay for a $0.05 piece of candy.

There appears to be a debate concerning China and America in the future, with lip service paid to education. I have traveled this country (America), and I have seen things that need to be changed.

Education, as I am 16 and still in high school, needs to be fixed in a bad way. We Americans need to standardize (in some way) education, so that all the bad educational experiences I have been through are not inflicted on others. How would you, an honors student taking the highest-level classes available and earning college credit, like to be told that your science class at a previous school doesn't count because it is not in the book? Or that because of this class it is possible that you won't be graduating due to incompetent guidance counselors? Or that roughly 1/3 of all of your 9th grade credit doesn't count, and that you'll have to take some of them again?

Now, while this last one doesn't concern economics (or so I think...), I feel we need some standardization concerning driver's education. And that any behind-the-wheel portion should be administered *immediatly* after classroom instruction. Because of stupid things concerning this, we had to pay $300 or so on driver's ed in Alabama (to lower insurance), only to end up needing to pay $200 for driver's ed in Virginia. And, as it is likely I'm going to move to Ohio, it is very likely that I will have to pay for driver's ed (unless it is free) again. I have come up with a new strategy for paying for driver's ed, and it involves selling candy to the kids at my school. You'd be surprised at how much someone is willing to pay for a $0.05 piece of candy.

couple quick questions (As I have an Ohio Drivers License and live in Virginia)
Do you have your Learners permit in Virginia? Do you have your License in Virginia? If you haven't gotten your license in Virginia, go get it quick and then use it till it expires and then go to ohio and transfer over.

TG me, I may be able to work this out for you or at least point you in the right direction, btw what part of Ohio you moving too?

I have my permit still. I have to wait until friggin' spring to finish the VA. driver's ed, due to the behind-the-wheel crap. Why they don't do it as quickly as possible is beyond me. I'm doing it through the school. As I probably will move (if we do, which according to my dad, is about 90% chance. He really thinks he'll get this Ohio job, but we won't find out till Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. The suspense is killing us) within this month or slightly later. If I have to take the classroom portion of driver's ed again I will be going postal on someone. Anyone know any good Somali arms dealers? ;)

Also, in Ohio, I would be moving to Maumee, which is somewhere around Toledo. I know nothing about the area, other than that my father's job would be there. And housing prices are cheap compared to the ridiculously expensive land of Virginia. The joke in my family is that a run-down trailor with 5 square feet of yard space will go for $500,000.

Fluffy i feel your pain with the price of housing. In miami we sold our 1300 Sq Ft house for $365,000 and bought a 3900 Sq Ft house in Georgia for $265,000. The difference is evident...

Moving from Georgia to North Carolina was a pain, as Philanchez said, houses are alot cheaper down there, so we got like 180,000 for our 4 bedroom house, and paid out 270,000 for the 4 room house up here in North Carolina. Also the schools refused to accept my civics credit, because i took geography as the second part instead of economics. So i am taking civics for the second time with a bunch of sophmores, i am taking life skills with freshmen, taking chemistry with a bunch of juniors and then AP english III with a bunch of juniors, so i am all over the place with classes in what they accepted during the move and what they didn't.

Anyway i guess we have kinda strayed from why we started talking about :(

Sharina, apology is accepted.

Economic thread has been updated, but thanks for the link Macedonia.. oddly enough, I estimated your population based on data I could find and came up with that figure

I will look at that data more closely on monday... this weekend will be all Second World War military operations... everything is ready now. Just a couple last minute comfirmations needed from parthini and Jensai

I have a game covering World War I and II, with a amazingly huge map, every major warship built between 1910 and 1946 for nearly everyone, and more than enough information to extropalate the ones that were built in this game but not in real life. It also allows me to handle strategic level air combat as well. Not to mention ground combat. Its corp level, so I will have to estimate losses to an extent, but will use historical data on typical losses .. of which there is a plethora and I have it easily availble. I have roughly 200 books on military history, most of which are on World War I and II, with plenty more on the Cold War period and current era. All of which I have read at least twice (and some many times).

I also have a library of roughly 50 books on alternate history, so this is definitely my bread and butter.

Its going to be a very exciting late summer and early fall in 1924, and then expect things to slow down a bit when winter and late fall begins in November and December.

Monday I will post a cost list and time frame schedule for building things using information I have from that Game. (World In Flames, first printing 1990and latest version came out about 3 years ago).

The map will be set up in my garage... alas, I don't have digital camera, or I would post it.. Maybe after Christmas.

Important Information for The Year 1925

Population overview
region population in millions
Europe 345
Russia 170
North America 140 (includes Caribbean)
Japan 60
Oceania 10
Latin America 92
Africa 145
Asia 980


Major oil production areas 1925
North America--- Texas, Oklahoma, California. Mexico
Mideast -- Persia, northern Iraq
Asia -- Dutch East Indies, British Borneo, Burma
Russia -- Baku, parts of Siberia
Europe -- Rumania, limited amounts in Hungary (near Lake Balaton)
Caribbean -- Venezuela, Arabu

All War Debts are now paid off

A Recession post Great War last 2 - 6 years depending on the nation, but gradually the world economy adjusted to the new realities. There is a glut of oil, so prices are relatively cheap, but demand is sufficient for exploration to continue in existing oil production areas. Technology is a limitation (no offshore for one thing). In the US, a new type of economic growth is now taking place as the consumer economy is becoming the dominant force. Within 20 years this will also be a dominant force in Europe, Australia and then spread elsewhere.

A Global War has begun between the Pact and the LTA

The Big Powers 1925 (1920 figures)

Population in millions/percentage urban
Russia 195.1 / 12
USA 125 / 50
Germany 76 / 45
China 500 / 10
Japan 55 / 22
France 42 / 25
Britain 50 / 60
Italy 40 / 25
Burgundy 6 /34
Colombia 6 / 12
India 300/10

Industrial powers / Industrial potential and GNP in 1920 Dollars
LTA Nations
Britain 150
USA 500
Japan 45
Italy 30
Colombia 12
India 5

Total LTA potential 742 population 556 million (not counting other British Dominions)

Warsaw Pact
Germany 180
Russia 105
France 150
Czechslovakia 12
Total Warsaw Pact industrial potential 447 population 327 million

Other nations (some pro Warsaw Pact, some neutral)

Belgium 45
Burgundy 25
China 47

For everyone else, for ease, use $1 Billion for every million people if tech level 5, $500 million for every million if tech level 4
$100 Million for every million people if Tech Level 3 or 3.5, and $10 Millio for every million if Tech Level 2... below that you don't have a GNP

The Year 1920
(editors note: GDP information is difficult to come by for this period, and historical information was strongly affected by World War I, which in our time line was less severe and earlier... so I am still working on it. But for now, this should give you something to look at. In addition, I only included independent nations of this period. Colonial territories were not included principally because information is hard to get, and they don't control their economic destiny anyway at this point.)

North America

Canada
Population: 7 million
Economic Rating Very Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5
Oil Exporter

United States
Population: 125 million (plus colonial populations)
Economic Rating Powerhouse
Tech Level: 6
Oil Exporter

Central America and Caribbean
Cuba
Population 3 million
Economic Rating: Struggling or Fair (see below)
Tech level 3.5

Nicaruaga, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Santa Domingo all have struggly or fair economies depending on the prices their principal exports get on the world market that year, and tech levels of 2 or 3 depending on the quality of their infrastructure and level of political unrest (if any)

Mexico
Population: 20 million
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3
Oil Exporter

This area is a bit more stable than it was historically, although not by much. Although the US has not intervened in the area, and the Pan American Treaty prevents other nations from doing so, there has still been periodic internal unrest that frequently results in economic losses.

South America

Argentina
Population 7 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Brazil
Population: 25 million
Economic Rating struggling
Tech Level: 3.5
Big problems because of the Civil War, high debt, and now its cut off from the the economic support is was getting from the Pact and partially isolated by US naval blockade

Chile
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Colombia
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Venezuela
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 3.5
Oil Exporter

Europe
Albania
Population 3 million
Economic Rating Struggling (extractive)
Tech level 3

Hungary
Population: 8 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4
(however, if the Civil War occurs than economic rating will plummet)

Czechslovakia
population 9 million
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech level 5

Belgium
Population: 7 million (plus colonial)
Economic rating Very Good (industrial)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 5

Denmark
Population: 2,5 million (plus Iceland and other territory)
Economic rating Fair (market)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 4
still recovering from the short war with Germany

France
Population: 40 million (plus Colonial populations)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5

Germany
Population: 70 million
Industrial Base: 52 (capacity), 71.2 (potential)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech level: 5.5

Great Britain
Population: 45 (plus a vast Colonial population)
Economic Rating: Powerhouse (mercantile)
Tech Level: 6
Exports Oil (Nigeria)

Greece
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Reasonable (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Italy
Population: 35
Economic Rating Fair (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Burgundy
Population: 10 million
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level 5

Yugoslavia
Population 13 million
Economic Rating Reasonable (market)
Tech level 4

Netherlands
Population: 6 million (plus Dutch East Indies)
Economic Rating Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5
Exports Oil (Dutch East Indies, Aruba)

Norway
Population: 2.5 million
Economic rating Good (extractive):
Tech Level: 4

Portugal
Population:6 million (plus Angola, Mozambique)
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech level 3.5

Rumania
Population: 7 million
Economic rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4
Exports Oil

Russia
Population: 165 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5.5
exports Oil

Spain
Population 15 million
Economic Rating: Reasonable (extractive)
Tech level 4
still recovering from an extremely costly and nasty civil war, the southern parts of the country near Cadiz are in ruins

Sweden
Population: 6 million +
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5.5

Middle East and North Africa

Ottoman Empire
Population: 28 million (including territories)
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4.5
Exports Oil

Palestine
Population: 1 million (estimate)
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Morocco
Population 7 million
Economic rating fair (extractive)
Tech level 3
extensive US investment and assistance in developing infrastructure since 1922, even more investment coming (particularly for its main port of Casablanca)

no other independent nations at this point

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Population: 6 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Liberia, Ethopia are also independent and have tech levels of 2, struggling, extractive economies
all other territory in Africa is owned by someone and is exclusively extractive

East Asia

China
Population: 500 + million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 5
However, foreign investment has dried up after the war started

Japan
Population: 55 Million
Economic Rating Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

India
Population 300 million
Economic Rating Good (extractive)
Tech Level: 4

Korea
Population: 11 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4

Siam
Population 9 million
Economic Rating Weak (Extractive)
Tech level 2

no other independent nations, Colonial territories are included in their owners rating

Oceania
Australia
Population 6 million
Economic Rating Good (Market)
Tech level 5

New Zealand
GDP per capita:
Population: 1 million
Economic Rating Fair (Extractive)
Tech Level: 3.5

I have my permit still. I have to wait until friggin' spring to finish the VA. driver's ed, due to the behind-the-wheel crap. Why they don't do it as quickly as possible is beyond me. I'm doing it through the school. As I probably will move (if we do, which according to my dad, is about 90% chance. He really thinks he'll get this Ohio job, but we won't find out till Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. The suspense is killing us) within this month or slightly later. If I have to take the classroom portion of driver's ed again I will be going postal on someone. Anyone know any good Somali arms dealers? ;)

Also, in Ohio, I would be moving to Maumee, which is somewhere around Toledo. I know nothing about the area, other than that my father's job would be there. And housing prices are cheap compared to the ridiculously expensive land of Virginia. The joke in my family is that a run-down trailor with 5 square feet of yard space will go for $500,000.


well it sounds like your going to need a somali Arms dealer.

If you want to go cheap and get your license in Ohio when your 18 you can skip Driving classes. And as far as I know, in most places in Ohio your not going to be going through the school. So yeah look at 220 being cheapest and up to 370 for classes. You need 8 hours of Instructor time behind the wheel. 60 total hours of driving( your parents say when you have the 60 hours so that could fudged a little or a lot depending on your parents) and 8 of those 60 hours has to be driving after dark. Thats unless things have changed in the 5 years since I got my license.

GB, any idea on what type of government I should be looking for China to "advance" to while keeping the Emperor in terms of importance and leadership role?

So far, I've been looking at Facism (for the production and indoctrination boosts) or what I term as "Imperial" Democracy (A mix of UK and USA democracy, but the Chinese Emperor acts as the President, with veto power and command of the military).



This aside, GB, you can easily take a standard picture of the map in your garage and maybe your library of history books, then take the film to the camera store, and have them put the pictures on disk or CD. Then you can upload them to your computer and show us E20'ers your stuff. :)

Just a quick question GB about the populations, you have Hungary's at 18 million and Czechslovakia's at 5 million, while in RL its 8 and 9 million respectivly. I was wondering if this was a typing error or if I really did gain ten million people. Not that I'm complaining if I did of course ;)

Just a quick question GB about the populations, you have Hungary's at 18 million and Czechslovakia's at 5 million, while in RL its 8 and 9 million respectivly. I was wondering if this was a typing error or if I really did gain ten million people. Not that I'm complaining if I did of course ;)

typing error

Still no feedback on my dilemma for an "evolved" government of China? :(

Still no feedback on my dilemma for an "evolved" government of China? :(

monday or tuesday

Hmm, sounds like a few of us have had moving issues. I also guess that the Internet attracts people like that, as almost no one at my school has lived anywhere other than Culpeper (which is where I live), and a larger percentage appear to have moved at least once (in this topic, at least).

As a final hijack, I call upon the power of Philanchez: I believe you were the one that spoke Spanish. Well, we still haven't gotten to the point where it would be possible to communicate with Spanish-speakers (I imagine that we won't until we get to verb conjugation. I expect that will be next semester, at the rate this class is going...), but I have a question: how do you (as in you personally) pronounce two ls (ll)? My Spanish teacher (a Colombian) pronounces it as an English J sound. I've also heard others pronounce it as a y sound. So, is there a rule we haven't learned yet, or is it a dialect?

Hmm, sounds like a few of us have had moving issues. I also guess that the Internet attracts people like that, as almost no one at my school has lived anywhere other than Culpeper (which is where I live), and a larger percentage appear to have moved at least once (in this topic, at least).

As a final hijack, I call upon the power of Philanchez: I believe you were the one that spoke Spanish. Well, we still haven't gotten to the point where it would be possible to communicate with Spanish-speakers (I imagine that we won't until we get to verb conjugation. I expect that will be next semester, at the rate this class is going...), but I have a question: how do you (as in you personally) pronounce two ls (ll)? My Spanish teacher (a Colombian) pronounces it as an English J sound. I've also heard others pronounce it as a y sound. So, is there a rule we haven't learned yet, or is it a dialect?

as a spanish speaker (though not perfect). double ll as in 'me llamo' seems to be said 'me dlyammo'. its hard to explain but i think an easier way is to say it as a y, thats how I would say it.

Well, I am guessing it's a Colombian accent or something. My teacher says "me llamo" as "me jamo," or there abouts. I'll await Philanchez, but in the meantime, I'll get working on the Italian military lists and stop cluttering up this thread....

Well, I am guessing it's a Colombian accent or something. My teacher says "me llamo" as "me jamo," or there abouts. I'll await Philanchez, but in the meantime, I'll get working on the Italian military lists and stop cluttering up this thread....

My teacher (not a native speaker, but a 35-year learner who spent time in Spain) just uses the Castillan/Mexican pronunciation "y-amo" for "Me llamo."

Well, I am guessing it's a Colombian accent or something. My teacher says "me llamo" as "me jamo," or there abouts. I'll await Philanchez, but in the meantime, I'll get working on the Italian military lists and stop cluttering up this thread....

No you're right. I've heard native Spaniards use the J on me llamo before as well as the Y. In my experience I use the y but I believe both are acceptable.

The double "l" (as a letter. like "a" or "b") is generally pronounced "el-yea," though it's really a dialectal thing. The most common pronounciations are like the English letters "y" and "j". Generally, I think that Spaniards sound like "y" and Latin Americans more like "j," though obviously there are exceptions to this.

Personally, I use the "y" pronounciation, but I doubt anyone will care if you don't.

An ad for the beligerents out there.... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9796883&postcount=107)

monday or tuesday

Thanks, I appreciate it, GB. :)

OOC: The Fourms glitch stinks. Why not take time out on this thread to invoke the Depression 4 years earlier?

OOC: The Fourms glitch stinks. Why not take time out on this thread to invoke the Depression 4 years earlier?

The Great Depression actually started with Germany's war debts and utter collapse of its economy in the 1920's. Thus, foreign debts were ruined, and other stuff like un-regulated stock markets (I believe) and archaic economic systems all contributed to the Great Depression.

In our timeline, Germany's economy is strong- pretty much all European and USA economies are strong as well. I am not sure about the stock markets and such- but I think Great Depression may hit after our WW2 as there will definitely be foreign debts and similiar situations to post-WW 1 Germany (our RL timeline).

The Act of Union

The Ottoman Empire and The Republic of Palestine have sign a series of agreements to step towards to complete union and form a new nation know as the Middle Eastern Union, which will be formed by 1932. Here is a set of goals to be competing by these dates for the act of union.

1. The uniting of the armies of Palestine and the Ottoman Empire by the year 1928, by that dates the new command and headquarters for the Arm forces of the Middle Eastern Union will be in Damascus.
2. The uniting meager of the governments of both nations to make one united government, with Prime Minister and President as the elected rulers of the new union nation. The Prime Minister will be the head of the Parliament and President will be the head of the Senate of the Union. The seat of the central government will be in Ankara. Also the Sultan will be as figurehead, with the powers to call for Jihads and other matters related to office of Sultan, the Office of Sultan will remain in Istanbul. This will be done by 1931.

The Great Depression actually started with Germany's war debts and utter collapse of its economy in the 1920's. Thus, foreign debts were ruined, and other stuff like un-regulated stock markets (I believe) and archaic economic systems all contributed to the Great Depression.

In our timeline, Germany's economy is strong- pretty much all European and USA economies are strong as well. I am not sure about the stock markets and such- but I think Great Depression may hit after our WW2 as there will definitely be foreign debts and similiar situations to post-WW 1 Germany (our RL timeline).

Indeed. Also, great contributors to the Great Deppression were the substantial raise in tariffs by many modern nations, the poor monetary policies of the United States (The Federal Reserve at this time was a joke), and the huge amount of speculation occuring in most stock markets.

As many of these factors are almost impossible to control by free-market nations, it is inevitable that the western world will experience a Depression of some sort. However, the size and scale of a depression depends on how each government responds to the sudden collapse of their markets. Being that we all know how the Great Depression occured and the fact were constantly at war with each other, I doubt ours will be as bad as the one in RL.

Indeed. Also, great contributors to the Great Deppression were the substantial raise in tariffs by many modern nations, the poor monetary policies of the United States (The Federal Reserve at this time was a joke), and the huge amount of speculation occuring in most stock markets.

As many of these factors are almost impossible to control by free-market nations, it is inevitable that the western world will experience a Depression of some sort. However, the size and scale of a depression depends on how each government responds to the sudden collapse of their markets. Being that we all know how the Great Depression occured and the fact were constantly at war with each other, I doubt ours will be as bad as the one in RL.

Ahh- but our E20 nations IC'ly may not know or realize this, though.

GB, wherefore art thou?

Fluffywuffy,
Its an elye. Thats how it would sound in english. In 'me llamo' it is a y sound as in 'yay'. In fact the majority of the time you see ll it is a y sound.

OCC:

Ahh- but our E20 nations IC'ly may not know or realize this, though.

Indeed. However, in every RP I have actively played in, the other players have usually avoided events such as these through using today's knowladge and applying it in some far-fetched way to the historical RP.

I'm not sure if that same thing will happen here (as the RPing quality/realsim here is some of the best I've ever seen).

GB, wherefore art thou?

been a busy day, not ready to post results yet, as still resolving them.

As far as the Depression goes, the fact that Britian avoiding bankruptcy early in the 20th Century by skipping the Great War is a big help, another is that the US government purchased all of the foriegn debts owed to US banks to avoid the issue of commercial banks having to provide riskier and riskier loans to keep the whole tottering structure from collapsing. We also haven't had nasty trade barriers like the Harley Smoot tarriff either. US government spending also accelerated earlier because of the long period of tension between the US and Germany, and because the early strength of Socialism forced the major parties in the US to take action to undercut the Socialist economic and social platform out from under them.

So some of the underlying fiscal and economic problems that led directly to the Depression have been avoided long enough for the US economy to mature.

So some of the underlying fiscal and economic problems that led directly to the Depression have been avoided long enough for the US economy to mature.

A question- what of other nations economies? If the rest of the world, or at least some major nations economies collapse, then it will set off a chain reaction that will affect the USA economy unless the US imposes severe tariffs or takes drastic measures? Just wondering as we are moving towards globalization one way or another.

A question- what of other nations economies? If the rest of the world, or at least some major nations economies collapse, then it will set off a chain reaction that will affect the USA economy unless the US imposes severe tariffs or takes drastic measures? Just wondering as we are moving towards globalization one way or another.

as was described in the book "Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", the US economy is the bellows that can heat up or cool down the global economy.

incidently, combat results for July and August in Italy posted

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9797908&postcount=52

Fluffywuffy,
Its an elye. Thats how it would sound in english. In 'me llamo' it is a y sound as in 'yay'. In fact the majority of the time you see ll it is a y sound.

Not exactly.

In Spain, most certainly. But everywhere has it's different accent. Argentinian accent has a heavy j, as here in Panama they mostly used "y"(but it's kinda got a wee bit of a j thrown in there). Gramatically, yes, it would be a "y" sound. But different people pronounce it differently.

What is going on with Adolf Hitler right now? Would he still be in Germany?

Hes an architect in Paris. besides he wouldnt join the Nazi Party because Germany never lost the war and has never been made into a third rate country.

Also his main reason for hatred towards the german government, and the austrian has been taken care of, no more hapsburgs in Austria, and the two reichs are joined. In mein kampf that is one of the first things he addresses.

how building will be handled

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Economic resources available per turn

LTA nations
USA 34 (in other words, 204 a year)
UK 15 (includes resources from British Empire)
Canada 2
South Africa 2
Japan 7
India 2
Australia 2
Colombia 3
Italy 10
Ecuador 1

Pact nations
Germany 16
Russia 17
Czechslovakia 2
Yugoslavia 3
France 12
Spain 4

Other nations
China 7
Korea 2
Netherlands 3
Belgium 3
Burgundy 3
Norway 2
Sweden 4

Costs of Units / turns (each turn is 2 months)
Light surface ships (5 cruisers or 20 destroyers or 50 smaller vessels) 1 / turn for 8 turns
Submarines (represents 20 submarines) 1 / turn for 6 turns
Capital ships (2 battleships or battlecruisers) 1 / turn for 12 turns (10 turns for US, UK, Germany)
Carriers (2 carriers or 4 smaller carriers or 10 escort type carriers, includes their airgroups)
1 / turn for 12 turns (10 turns for
US, UK, Germany)
Merchant shipping / amphibious shipping (500,000 tons) 1 / turn for 5 turns (4 turns for US)
Fighter (represents 1,000 aircraft) 1 / turn for 4 turns (3 turns US, Germany)
Bombers (represents 1,000 aircraft) 1 / turn for 5 turns (4 turns US, UK)
Maritime bombers & fighters (1,000 aircraft) 1 / turn for 5 turns (4 turns for US, Japan, UK)
Transport aircraft (US, Germany, UK, France, Russia only) 1 / turn for 5 turns (4 turns US, UK)
Garrison troops (includes fortifications) 1 / turn for 3 turns
Infantry corps (represents 2 –10 divisions depending on quality of army) 1 / turn for 2 turns
Mechanized corps (represents 3 divisions) 1 / turn for 4 turns
Horse cavalry corps 1 / turn for 2 turns
Alpine corps 1 / turn for 3 turns
Amphibious troops (marines and assault craft) 1 / turn for 6 turns
Factories (economic development, increases resource points available) 2 / turn for 6 turns
Repair damaged warships (includes carriers) 1 / turn for 2 turns (1 turn US)
Fortifications 1 / turn for 2 turns
Headquarters units (allows reorganized of disorganized units) 1 / turn for 6 turns

Tell me at the start of the year how you plan to spend your points, and how much you plan to leave in reserve to replace losses, repair ships etc and for contingencies.

In other words, each Monday. I would prefer you post that in the economics thread. This should not be telegrammed as to ensure everyone is comfortable that no funny business is going on.

If nothing is received, I will assume everything is held in reserve for contingencies.

This is from the game "World in Flames" and yes, the US does have a substantial industrial advantage.

How about Romania??

How about Romania??

Rumania has 1 point available a turn, starts with 1 Cav corps, 1 mountain corps, 2 infantry corps, 1 light ship (in the Black Sea). It also has oil, and sends 2 points a turn to Germany unless it decides not too (it can't use those extra 3 points itself yet)

This gives Rumania 3 points for 1924 and 6 points for 1925. In 1926 it will be able to generate 2 points a turn (for 12 points a year)

Brazil?

He's got Brazil listed in the Economic Thread, I think. Brazil, Chile and Argentina have been given 2 points a turn.

What about Greece?

Safehaven has told me he wishes to change from playing Australia to playing Russia on a temporary basis until Vas Porokim returns from his RL issues. I have decided to approve this as we do need a Russian player.

What about Greece?

I wasn't aware if we still had an active Greek player

Safehaven has told me he wishes to change from playing Australia to playing Russia on a temporary basis until Vas Porokim returns from his RL issues. I have decided to approve this as we do need a Russian player.

That is ok with me, but I need orders immediately for 1925

GB, get on chatzy.

Yes, Greece is avctive (again) under a new player...so, how many economic points do i have? Did i just miss it?

Yes, Greece is avctive (again) under a new player...so, how many economic points do i have? Did i just miss it?

Greece has 1 point a turn, starts with 1 mountain corps, 2 infantry corps, and 1 garrison unit (at Athens), and a small fleet of 2 old light cruiser, 10 destroyers, and 20 small gunboats plus 4 million tons of shipping (8 shipping units) of which about half are at sea and vulnerable to attack or seizure by either the LTA or Pact

I hav eno problems with Safehaven becoming Russia as long as no one forgets about Australia's construction points or their troops. Perhaps Malkyer could control them until Safehaven returns?

Lesser Ribenia, if Malkver controls Australia, then who will control South Africa?

-------------------

I have a question. Should I start my governmental reforms here or in my China thread? Just wondering as this thread recieves more views- maybe cross post or something?

Or should I wait a few more game months before reforming my government into an Imperial Democracy?

----------------------

Imperial Democracy System:

President = Chinese Emperor, elected for life.
Governors = Chinese Princes and Princesses. If there isn't sufficient Princes and Princesses, then the governors will be democratically elected.

Everything else is democratically elected except for the military.

I have yet to work out a Congress type of lawmaking body. I know I want to have the Chinese Emperor involved with veto'ing power and "push-through-for-the-greater-good" power. However, I'm not sure how to incorporate the Governors and the elected officials into a Congress. I'm not sure how to establish a "senator" system for China.

Would a possible solution be a Congress with the "head" being the Emperor, followed by each provincal governor (prince, princess, or elected official). Then four senators per province, but the governors have double the votes, as in a governor's vote counts as two votes, while the senator vote counts as a single vote?

Would this system work? I'm trying to hammer out some ideas how to preserve the Chinese mystique and dynasty, yet provide what the people may desire- democracy. Please share your thoughts on this, guys. :)

Lesser Ribenia, if Malkver controls Australia, then who will control South Africa?

-------------------

I have a question. Should I start my governmental reforms here or in my China thread? Just wondering as this thread recieves more views- maybe cross post or something?

Or should I wait a few more game months before reforming my government into an Imperial Democracy?

----------------------

Imperial Democracy System:

President = Chinese Emperor, elected for life.
Governors = Chinese Princes and Princesses. If there isn't sufficient Princes and Princesses, then the governors will be democratically elected.

Everything else is democratically elected except for the military.

I have yet to work out a Congress type of lawmaking body. I know I want to have the Chinese Emperor involved with veto'ing power and "push-through-for-the-greater-good" power. However, I'm not sure how to incorporate the Governors and the elected officials into a Congress. I'm not sure how to establish a "senator" system for China.

Would a possible solution be a Congress with the "head" being the Emperor, followed by each provincal governor (prince, princess, or elected official). Then four senators per province, but the governors have double the votes, as in a governor's vote counts as two votes, while the senator vote counts as a single vote?

Would this system work? I'm trying to hammer out some ideas how to preserve the Chinese mystique and dynasty, yet provide what the people may desire- democracy. Please share your thoughts on this, guys. :)

Chinese thread probably better, that way you can go into all the detail you want and it won't get lost in the shuffle

Absolutely no nukes though, that has been agreed on by the referees, for complex reasons, including playability, as well as some realism concerns.

what reasons? Enlighten us....