NationStates Jolt Archive

Also, having read alot on Polish history, I can tell you that the Poles can't have gone from despising the Germans and Russians to loving them in 20 years. Maybe the Austrians (the Austrians were by-far the least-harsh when it came to the Poles, and even after the Poles revolted they were still pretty humane compared to the Russians and Germans).

:p

Just stating the facts, buddy, just stating the facts...

Also, I should have said that I am 50% descended from Poles. All of my Great-Grandparents shipped out from Poland (save one; she's Syrian), and that's the main ethnicity I'm descended from. We follow alot of Polish customs at Christmas as well, as well as eating Polish food.

Also, I am well-aware that the capital of the Union is in Warsaw. But even though in real-life the Warsaw Pact was made in (drumroll) Poland, what country started the movement that brought it down? Also, I do not see one ethnic Pole on the list of Soviet Union leaders on the Soviet Union page. Not to mention, in THEORY every S.S.R in the actually U.S.S.R was equal, but in PRACTICE everyone knows 'twas the Russians who ran everything. Just like in THEORY every S.S.R. is equal in this Soviet Union, but in PRACTICE pretty much everyone should be able to tell it's the Germans and Russians are running the show (though, I must say, getting 2 nations that hate each other ALMOST as much as they both hate the poles to make one nation still confuses me.)

The whole classless society thing helps, I believe. That and the Germanic hatred has now been fully flung at the Americans and Italians. You can thank Kaiser Bill for that one. Hell, we're allied to the French. What do you expect?

Also, everyone continues to forget that we aren't the real USSR. We're a whole lot nicer and less hypocritical. That and we killed the nasty Bolsheviks.

As for no Poles on the list, there's one on the Supreme Council. There was a Finn who was President for a while. We don't make a big deal about race. Just species. Now begon Swine-Pig!

Parthini, I suspect only the Germans and French don't like the Americans, the Russians and Americans fought only a couple of times during the 2nd Great War. Aside from relative extremists in both nations, the common people of Russia and America probably don't have much hate toward one another.

On the other hand, the Americans and Germans were in a state of Cold War in this game from 1905 until the fighting actually began between them in 1924, then 3 years of heavy fighting followed. I don't imagine American and German views toward one another have moderated a lot since then.

Lightning Star, my take is that the Poles, likes some of the other ethnic groups aren't happy with Russian and German rule, but not unhappy enough to revolt, especially as the Russians have yet to lose a war. The Russians won the 1st Great War, and managed to get a negotiated peace during the 2nd Great War. With that kind of record, armed revolution doesn't look too hopeful, so the Polish nationalists would most likely be trying for the most autonomy they can get in the current system and the best overall social progress in that system.

It would take at this point a major defeat, perhaps even catastrophic defeat, of the Union to create the situation were armed revolution looked like a possibility of success.

Incidently the loser during the 1st Great War was Austria Hungary (destroyed as a nation state), and the 2nd Great War the losers were France and Spain, and to a lesser extent Italy. Germany was embarrassed and defeated on the battlefield, and the Union was driven off the oceans, but it survived essentially unscathed where it mattered.

Unlike history, both of the large European wars have been fought for limited aims and once those aims where achieved by the winner, the wars ended. Instead of a 4 year total war then 20 years of only partial recovery marked by 6 years of even worse total war, we have had 2 years of war, nearly 20 years of full recovery then only 3 years of war. That has made a significant difference.

Parthini, I suspect only the Germans and French don't like the Americans, the Russians and Americans fought only a couple of times during the 2nd Great War. Aside from relative extremists in both nations, the common people of Russia and America probably don't have much hate toward one another.

On the other hand, the Americans and Germans were in a state of Cold War in this game from 1905 until the fighting actually began between them in 1924, then 3 years of heavy fighting followed. I don't imagine American and German views toward one another have moderated a lot since then.

Lightning Star, my take is that the Poles, likes some of the other ethnic groups aren't happy with Russian and German rule, but not unhappy enough to revolt, especially as the Russians have yet to lose a war. The Russians won the 1st Great War, and managed to get a negotiated peace during the 2nd Great War. With that kind of record, armed revolution doesn't look too hopeful, so the Polish nationalists would most likely be trying for the most autonomy they can get in the current system and the best overall social progress in that system.

It would take at this point a major defeat, perhaps even catastrophic defeat, of the Union to create the situation were armed revolution looked like a possibility of success.

Incidently the loser during the 1st Great War was Austria Hungary (destroyed as a nation state), and the 2nd Great War the losers were France and Spain, and to a lesser extent Italy. Germany was embarrassed and defeated on the battlefield, and the Union was driven off the oceans, but it survived essentially unscathed where it mattered.

Unlike history, both of the large European wars have been fought for limited aims and once those aims where achieved by the winner, the wars ended. Instead of a 4 year total war then 20 years of only partial recovery marked by 6 years of even worse total war, we have had 2 years of war, nearly 20 years of full recovery then only 3 years of war. That has made a significant difference.

I didn't think they were angry enough to rebel NOW, but do you think that in a few decades they might? Maybe near the end of the century (80's, 90's maybe). It doesn't even have to be violent, it could be a Solidarity type thing.

While we are on the topic of rebellions....when does the INLA kick into action? Or the IRA in all it's forms? They were all socialist so there would be two reasons for this! Das Socialist Motherland of the Tri-Colors. I am guessing there won't be any good people in a rebellion like Padriag Pearce, or Michael Collins though.

I didn't think they were angry enough to rebel NOW, but do you think that in a few decades they might? Maybe near the end of the century (80's, 90's maybe). It doesn't even have to be violent, it could be a Solidarity type thing.

That I can see.

While we are on the topic of rebellions....when does the INLA kick into action? Or the IRA in all it's forms? They were all socialist so there would be two reasons for this! Das Socialist Motherland of the Tri-Colors. I am guessing there won't be any good people in a rebellion like Padriag Pearce, or Michael Collins though.

Ireland at this point has dominion status like Canada and Australia, although Northern Ireland could be a sore point eventually.

OOC: Sorry for my time off as well, I have been suffering from a pretty bad winter fever/cold/flu type thing and have spent most of yesterday and today asleep. I may have missed a few things on E20 but I haven't found anything yet that requires Britain's attention. If my decision is required on anything please let me know.

EDIT: Ah, just noticed the Ireland thing. Eire (Southern Ireland) is currently an independent nation along with all the other ex-dominion nations (Canada, South Africa etc.) and is only loosely affiliated with Britain by the Commonwealth of Nations. This sovereign nation status has done much to calm the Irish as they are free from "foreign tyranny". However eventually there will probably be trouble if they decide that they want Northern Ireland to join them and Britain and the Northern Irish decide they would like to remain a part of the UK.

Sorry is the above is a bit piecemeal and not very complete but it conveys the basics for the time being.

Now i'm off to take some more headache pills...

...mmm tasty pills...

Britain welcome back and hope you feel better. Hey Bhutan and you have to further our relations.

Thanks Zactarn. As to Bhutan, what would you like investment in? Britain has already attempted to improve industry (extremely difficult in such an area) and the military. I suppose I can give a few points of foreign investment next year, but I am already commited to supplying several other countries. Let me know what you need.

Just to be clear, Lightning Star, you must have been looking at an old version of the Soviet Main Post.

Our Defense Minister is a Pole, and our Finance Minister is a Polish Jewish woman.

Also, that list of ministers is by no means exhaustive. And there's the parallel government of the soviets, too, that is in some ways more powerful than the formal government, of which I've listed only one official (Trotsky).

Ignacy Mościcki, the Polish Exekutiv (president), belongs to a pro-independence party, but no, they're not planning any rebellions. And pro-Union sentiment is definitely a political force to be reckoned with among E20 Poles, though by no means universal. Pro-Union attitudes aren't universal anywhere in the Union, but they do exist everywhere.

As for the Russian and German friendship, things could have gone differently in the Twentieth Century, and had events happened in RL the way they did in E20 (with Willi and Nikki fighting on the same side in WWI against nasty old Franz - followed by Leftist revolutions in both countries, which I might add was a real possibility in Germany after the First World War), the current superstate wouldn't be that far-fetched.

Just to be clear, Lightning Star, you must have been looking at an old version of the Soviet Main Post.

Our Defense Minister is a Pole, and our Finance Minister is a Polish Jewish woman.

Also, that list of ministers is by no means exhaustive. And there's the parallel government of the soviets, too, that is in some ways more powerful than the formal government, of which I've listed only one official (Trotsky).

Ignacy Mościcki, the Polish Exekutiv (president), belongs to a pro-independence party, but no, they're not planning any rebellions. And pro-Union sentiment is definitely a political force to be reckoned with among E20 Poles, though by no means universal. Pro-Union attitudes aren't universal anywhere in the Union, but they do exist everywhere.

As for the Russian and German friendship, things could have gone differently in the Twentieth Century, and had events happened in RL the way they did in E20 (with Willi and Nikki fighting on the same side in WWI against nasty old Franz - followed by Leftist revolutions in both countries, which I might add was a real possibility in Germany after the First World War), the current superstate wouldn't be that far-fetched.


I still don't believe that the Poles would become best friends with their enemies spanning hundreds of years. On decent terms, maybe, but I doubt that pro-Union support (at least permanently) isn't even the majority. I wouldn't be surprised if an actual rebellion wasn't the majority, but don't think the Poles will be content forever. Moscow thought it had Poland secure for the longest time (starting back in the Polish-Bolshevik war of the Early '20s), but then BAM, down comes the Warsaw Pact.

I still don't believe that the Poles would become best friends with their enemies spanning hundreds of years. On decent terms, maybe, but I doubt that pro-Union support (at least permanently) isn't even the majority. I wouldn't be surprised if an actual rebellion wasn't the majority, but don't think the Poles will be content forever. Moscow thought it had Poland secure for the longest time (starting back in the Polish-Bolshevik war of the Early '20s), but then BAM, down comes the Warsaw Pact.


TLS- here is little fact about the Polish-Bolshevik War of the early 1920s, the Soviet commander in change of that war, was not even in the front..he was locked away in Moscow and wasn't able to run the war correctly...and If I do recalled correctly the Soviets did turn the tide against the Poles...but had to fuck up at Warsaw...

TLS- here is little fact about the Polish-Bolshevik War of the early 1920s, the Soviet commander in change of that war, was not even in the front..he was locked away in Moscow and wasn't able to run the war correctly...and If I do recalled correctly the Soviets did turn the tide against the Poles...but had to fuck up at Warsaw...

Well, we were this tiny little country surrounded by Big Russia, and we fought our way to the door-step of Moscow, and we got pushed back, and we pushed the Bolsheviks back again. Overall, we kicked ass.

Well, we were this tiny little country surrounded by Big Russia, and we fought our way to the door-step of Moscow, and we got pushed back, and we pushed the Bolsheviks back again. Overall, we kicked ass.
But of Couse, do the weak state of the Red Army and to do the leadership of Red Army...was..how you would said...bunch of good general..yet the Bolsheviks pary had them lock up at their command center in Moscow, just preventing them to handle the war correctly and plus Poland did get a shit load of aid from the West, mainly from France and no you didn't march up to Moscow, it was Keiv..get your facts right.

I still don't believe that the Poles would become best friends with their enemies spanning hundreds of years. On decent terms, maybe, but I doubt that pro-Union support (at least permanently) isn't even the majority. I wouldn't be surprised if an actual rebellion wasn't the majority, but don't think the Poles will be content forever. Moscow thought it had Poland secure for the longest time (starting back in the Polish-Bolshevik war of the Early '20s), but then BAM, down comes the Warsaw Pact.
I didn't say that either side was the majority, and I didn't say they were best friends, and whether they'll be content to be part of the Union forver remains to be seen.

Боже! Поляки глупы, ёб твою мать!
Ой.

But of Couse, do the weak state of the Red Army and to do the leadership of Red Army...was..how you would said...bunch of good general..yet the Bolsheviks pary had them lock up at their command center in Moscow, just preventing them to handle the war correctly and plus Poland did get a shit load of aid from the West, mainly from France and no you didn't march up to Moscow, it was Keiv..get your facts right.

We didn't go TOO Moscow, we were CLOSE to Moscow. (Although, we DID take it way back when. I mean, way back in the 1600's when).

Also, a shit-load of aid my ass. The West did NOTHING for Poland. Why? They Unions that controlled England and France supported the Soviets. They said they'd strike if they aided Poland. It's amazing that the French even managed to send their observers. But they did, and those helped turn the battle.

Guys, this isn't a thread for you to debate history.

Guys, this isn't a thread for you to debate history.
Oh be quite...we were having a interesting debate with the other nutty player of this rp...bah...we'll stop for now..

First, Kilani/Jensai's right.

But let me just say, as a final comment, that this very argument perfectly illustrates why we Slavs have never amounted to anything.

We spend too much time hatin' on each other, and then the Man gets us.

Because Poles, Serbs, Russians, Croats, Bulgars, Macedonians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Montenegrins, Czechs, Bosnians, and Slovaks are all just too dumb to do what the Slovenes tell them to do.

Hey mods, y'know how I've been talking ab00t having a Military Coup? Well, I've finally settled on an Idea.

Ok, here's the deal. The Communists of India, increasingly upset that Jinnah has been soft on the Princely States and has been supporting the LTA, decide to overthrow him (led be Chandra Bose). They then order that the Military sends in a division of soldiers to help make Tibet a Communist Nation, and at the same time plan on pulling out of the LTA and joining the Warsaw Pact. After the division of soldiers get destroyed because of some blunder (an avalanche or something; the new Communist regime will try to show their loyalty to the Union pretty quick, so they'll send the army in winter), the Military decides to intervene and overthrow the Communists, executing all of the leaders on charges of High Treason. They then decide to cancel the years elections in order to "create stability".

How's that sound?

Hey mods, y'know how I've been talking ab00t having a Military Coup? Well, I've finally settled on an Idea.

Ok, here's the deal. The Communists of India, increasingly upset that Jinnah has been soft on the Princely States and has been supporting the LTA, decide to overthrow him (led be Chandra Bose). They then order that the Military sends in a division of soldiers to help make Tibet a Communist Nation, and at the same time plan on pulling out of the LTA and joining the Warsaw Pact. After the division of soldiers get destroyed because of some blunder (an avalanche or something; the new Communist regime will try to show their loyalty to the Union pretty quick, so they'll send the army in winter), the Military decides to intervene and overthrow the Communists, executing all of the leaders on charges of High Treason. They then decide to cancel the years elections in order to "create stability".

How's that sound?

no way the Indian Army will ever tolerate anything like this.. the officer class is middle or upper class, and the line soldiers are peasant stock mostly. Communist militias in the cities maybe, but no way the Army is going pro communist. Pro Fascist perhaps, but not to the Left. As soon as the Communists start getting uppity, they will probably step in.

If the Communists and Socialists win an electoral victory that would be different. If anybody in India is "British" in the traditional sense, its the Army.

It's true that the Reds always did do better in India democratically.

The Union's set in its budget for '34, but I've been thinking for awhile about setting some resources aside for organizing and social work in India anyway, not to mention socialist industrial expansion (like we're doing in the MEU).

I'll be sure to work aid to India into my budget for '35.

I didn't think the ARMY would go Communist, GB! I said the Communists would overthrow the government and then the ARMY would kick 'em out. Probably having the excursion to China is a bit much, though. Maybe they communists can have their coup, then the army can follow suit.

Also, this is an election year, I nearly forgot...

You mean the Commies would take the government and then when the Military tried a coup, the Red Army decides to help "push the Revolution" :p

First, Kilani/Jensai's right.

But let me just say, as a final comment, that this very argument perfectly illustrates why we Slavs have never amounted to anything.

We spend too much time hatin' on each other, and then the Man gets us.

Because Poles, Serbs, Russians, Croats, Bulgars, Macedonians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Montenegrins, Czechs, Bosnians, and Slovaks are all just too dumb to do what the Slovenes tell them to do.

And then the Germans conquer everyone ;)

And then the Anglos beat up the Germans and say "NO!"

Ahh the roundabout of European Politics...

Parthini']And then the Germans conquer everyone ;)

And then the Anglos beat up the Germans and say "NO!"

Ahh the roundabout of European Politics...

It's like Monopoly!

1. Comstan is actting the same way as he was before, he hasn't impove at all in many aspects
2. As playing as Mexico, he is doing stuff that would get his beloved leader shot and hanged by the army, by sending them to the hopeless missions
3. He has done nothing to impove Mexico, yet he has send his people to far off wars.
4. He is actting like a world power, and has done nothing to impove his nation...all he has showed us that his men make great Cannonfolders..

1. Comstan is actting the same way as he was before, he hasn't impove at all in many aspects
2. As playing as Mexico, he is doing stuff that would get his beloved leader shot and hanged by the army, by sending them to the hopeless missions
3. He has done nothing to impove Mexico, yet he saids his people to far off wars.
4. He is actting like a world power, and has done nothing to impove his nation...all he has showed us that his men make great Cannonfolders..

ooc
that has been definitely noted, even before your post.

1. Comstan is actting the same way as he was before, he hasn't impove at all in many aspects
2. As playing as Mexico, he is doing stuff that would get his beloved leader shot and hanged by the army, by sending them to the hopeless missions
3. He has done nothing to impove Mexico, yet he saids his people to far off wars.
4. He is actting like a world power, and has done nothing to impove his nation...all he has showed us that his men make great Cannonfolders..

As Supreme Mod, I would like to hear the opinion of GB and Vas on this before making a final ruling whether to keep Comstan in or kick him out based on these four points Ottoman Khaif has raised.

As Supreme Mod, I would like to hear the opinion of GB and Vas on this before making a final ruling whether to keep Comstan in or kick him out based on these four points Ottoman Khaif has raised.
I say he's out. He hasn't learned a damn thing.

There'd be a coup in Mexico and some pro-American populist will get in.

I say he's out. He hasn't learned a damn thing.

There'd be a coup in Mexico and some pro-American populist will get in.

It's decided then. Comstan is out as all three moderators agree.

Besides, I'd like to know what you guys think of Zactum Prime in the couple of weeks he has come back to E20. In my opinion, he should stay on longer and show more Bhutan stuff.

Zactarn Prime has done okay so far, in my opinion. There's been some trouble (see a few pages back for some nonsense posts he put up becuase he was "bored"), but I'm willing to let him stay on.

I am sorry for over doing my support for an "Independent" Poland and I am very sorry if I hurt anyone's feeling at all by this it was careless... and I also think that Comstan should be kicked out as Mexico and replaced by someone who has a clue...

Just curious, is anyone interested in doing a RP not related to E20 with me? Just a Kordo versus you type of deal. Or bring your friends with ya, I’ll take them on too. Sorry for the blatant hijacking of the thread but I’m just wondering…..

I say he's out. He hasn't learned a damn thing.

There'd be a coup in Mexico and some pro-American populist will get in.

I will post something to that effect in the USA thread (for convenience) then.

Changed over the Year.

We could have a south american war? It has been in the offing for some time. Maybe it could end with Mexican defeat?

I believe one is being planned even as we speak by the hated Yanquis.

We could have a south american war? It has been in the offing for some time. Maybe it could end with Mexican defeat?

ooc
I looked at the Chaco War and the circumstances that created it in our timeline have so changed that they don't work in this one. Mexico isn't in South America, but we settled that situation already. I was going to have Argentina as an NPC do something in the near future.

However, Argentina has joined with Japan in the war against the Union, France and China. I suppose Brazil could take the other side. However, there are risks involved with that.

The US has urged Pan American and LTA nations to remain neutral in the conflict in Asia. Oddly enough, Colombia has sided with China (although not technically the Union or France). Its a complex situation to say the least.

ooc
I looked at the Chaco War and the circumstances that created it in our timeline have so changed that they don't work in this one. Mexico isn't in South America, but we settled that situation already. I was going to have Argentina as an NPC do something in the near future.

However, Argentina has joined with Japan in the war against the Union, France and China. I suppose Brazil could take the other side. However, there are risks involved with that.

The US has urged Pan American and LTA nations to remain neutral in the conflict in Asia. Oddly enough, Colombia has sided with China (although not technically the Union or France). Its a complex situation to say the least.


Hmm. I guess I could quarrel with Argentina over some trumped up thing like persecution of Jews or damaging our interests abroad? Maybe we could have an obscure South American Pogrom in Argentina and Zion could appeal to Brazil for aid?

Hmm. I guess I could quarrel with Argentina over some trumped up thing like persecution of Jews or damaging our interests abroad? Maybe we could have an obscure South American Pogrom in Argentina and Zion could appeal to Brazil for aid?

there is always Paraguay and Uruguay to bicker over.. but give me a little time to think about a trigger.

Zactarn Prime has done okay so far, in my opinion. There's been some trouble (see a few pages back for some nonsense posts he put up becuase he was "bored"), but I'm willing to let him stay on.
First it wasn't me. It was my cousin ok. I'm not that n00bish I mean jeez. Anyway. Thanks for letting me stay on. I'd love to build Bhutan bigger and more of their crazy @$$ traditions. hehe. Anyway thanks.

ATTN: CYLEA, OTHER COMMONWEALTH AND LTA NATIONS

Just to let you know that i'm replacing the Hurricanes in the RAF with Spitfire mk I this year so there will be several fighter units worth of them lying around. Your welcome to them if you wish and they can be shipped to Australia or wherever.

I am also replacing the Handley Page Hamdens with Halifaxes so there's several units of those going if any Commonwealth (or even LTA) nation wants them.

I have 5 units of Hurricanes and 5 of Hamdens to dispose of. First priority will go to Australia as he asked for them and then to Commonwealth nations and finally LTA nations. There will be a negligable fee to be paid to the British government ot cover transport costs and to replace the scrap value of teh aircraft but otherwise they are free (to a good home!).

I have (and I am assuming other Latin American Nations are) been waiting for a Chaco War for a while.

I have (and I am assuming other Latin American Nations are) been waiting for a Chaco War for a while.

as I said, the historical conditions for it have diverged so I need to come up with something. I was working on it when the Chinese Civil War broke out.

I have 5 units of Hurricanes and 5 of Hamdens to dispose of. First priority will go to Australia as he asked for them and then to Commonwealth nations and finally LTA nations. There will be a negligable fee to be paid to the British government ot cover transport costs and to replace the scrap value of teh aircraft but otherwise they are free (to a good home!).

The Union of South Africa would like to purchase one unit of Hurricanes in order to update our air reserve.

There was supposed to be an issue between Colombia and Peru over some land... I forget what it was... back in like 1932, 33, or 34...

There was supposed to be an issue between Colombia and Peru over some land... I forget what it was... back in like 1932, 33, or 34...

just the usual border tiff, nothing really important as I remember reading last week. Historically worked out in arbitration.

As Peru, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay are NPCs, I will probably use one or all of them to create problems.

You could start a war over a football match?

Parthini']You could start a war over a football match?

That'd be funny and interesting to witness. ;)

err that really did happen sharina.. i think it was honduras and guatamala.

Edit for country name...not guatamala but el salvador as GB's article says.

err that really did happen sharina.. i think it was honduras and guatamala.

the Soccer War
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/sierra/soccer1969.htm

what can you say....

Groundwork laid for future war in South America
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10085321&postcount=539

Can I join as Canada since no one is playing as it? This thread seems very interesting and one of my friends has told me about it.

ATTN: CYLEA, OTHER COMMONWEALTH AND LTA NATIONS

Just to let you know that i'm replacing the Hurricanes in the RAF with Spitfire mk I this year so there will be several fighter units worth of them lying around. Your welcome to them if you wish and they can be shipped to Australia or wherever.

I am also replacing the Handley Page Hamdens with Halifaxes so there's several units of those going if any Commonwealth (or even LTA) nation wants them.

I have 5 units of Hurricanes and 5 of Hamdens to dispose of. First priority will go to Australia as he asked for them and then to Commonwealth nations and finally LTA nations. There will be a negligable fee to be paid to the British government ot cover transport costs and to replace the scrap value of teh aircraft but otherwise they are free (to a good home!).

Excellent. Australia will purchase two units of hurricanes. We dont have the pilots trained for one yet, but I can do that with the points that were supposed to build the planes. Thank you very much.

Can I join as Canada since no one is playing as it? This thread seems very interesting and one of my friends has told me about it.

Read the front page. To join, you must submit an application to Vas Pokhoronim, with links to two samples of rp, along with the country that you would like to play.

Or you could just make random posts on the economic thread until someone asks you to join, like I did.

Canada and Australia: Certainly 500 hurricanes (1 unit) are currently being transferred to South Africa, and a further 1000 aircraft (2 units) will be transferred to Australia once British pilots complete their transfer to Spitfires. This is expected to take a few months at the most.

The Hungary hereby submits that the recent war in Asia has made it necessary for ‘rules of war’ to be established. To this end it calls for a convention of all nations to participate and to establish this unique document. It would be available for all nations to sign, though Hungary requests that if such a convention is created that it would binding for all League of Nations member states. The Convention will be held in Budapest assuming that interest is shown in such a convention.

(ooc: basically calling for a Geneva Convention except in Budapest instead damn Switzerland)

I want to give Goering a chance to play Canada. I'd like to give him a trial run and see how he does in E20.

What say you, GB and Vas?

I want to give Goering a chance to play Canada. I'd like to give him a trial run and see how he does in E20.

What say you, GB and Vas?
I'll allow him as a probationer.

I thank you very much.

Goreing, as Canada don'r forget that you're a member of teh British Commonwealth of Nations and that if you need anything (military assistance, foreign aid etc.) just post on my news thread and i'll respond with whatever assistance I can offer.

Thanks,
Your friendly neighbourhood ex-imperialist.

(United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)

Next World's Fairs: 1937 Paris, France 1939-1940 New York, NY, United States

Next Olympic games: 1936 Garmisch-Partenkirchen, German SFSR (winter) and Berlin, German SFSR (summer)

We should have an Olympics RP thread!

It would be a little difficult to Rp a huge event like the Olympics or a World's Fair, but it would be a change of pace...

Several Nations are available in the Role Play, but follow the rules of it...

It would be a little difficult to Rp a huge event like the Olympics or a World's Fair, but it would be a change of pace...

Several Nations are available in the Role Play, but follow the rules of it...

maybe we would have fewer wars... (chuckle)

Olympics would be cool, but I have a hard time imagining how to RP them.

Well I have been re-directed to here and I ask to be the Austrian Goverment under Germany (Union). The military would be post WWI Germany, 100000 well trained troops, a corps of unorganized tanks a 100 plane airforce and an occuping German force of (Fill in Blank). There is a few different parties with the remade Hapsburg, a far right-wing military party (The Kumotang), and an religious extremist group (Sid Bazar). I will be technically the official Austrian Goverment (or at least the figurehead) but will RP the other groups. Another nice idea would be new players being the groups in Austria. That is pretty much all.

Goreing, as Canada don'r forget that you're a member of teh British Commonwealth of Nations and that if you need anything (military assistance, foreign aid etc.) just post on my news thread and i'll respond with whatever assistance I can offer.

Thanks,
Your friendly neighbourhood ex-imperialist.

(United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)

Just don't count on them to help if you have a facist revolution :p

Well I have been re-directed to here and I ask to be the Austrian Goverment under Germany (Union). The military would be post WWI Germany, 100000 well trained troops, a corps of unorganized tanks a 100 plane airforce and an occuping German force of (Fill in Blank). There is a few different parties with the remade Hapsburg, a far right-wing military party (The Kumotang), and an religious extremist group (Sid Bazar). I will be technically the official Austrian Goverment (or at least the figurehead) but will RP the other groups. Another nice idea would be new players being the groups in Austria. That is pretty much all.
There is no "Austrian government." It's part of the Workers' Republic of Germany, and has been since 1908. There's no real basis for a separatist movement, and your ideas remain unrealistic and weird, based on the examples of the above quote.

I see nothing here that would indicate that your education and RP'ing skills have developed sufficiently to justify a second chance. Your request is denied.

maybe we would have fewer wars... (chuckle)

I've noticed that every time we come out of a time warp, its WAR! After our first time war, we jockeyed into position for Great War 2, and then after the second time warp, we had this whole China war thing. I bet after the third time warp, we'll have Great War 3. :rolleyes:

maybe we would have fewer wars... (chuckle)

I've noticed that every time we come out of a time warp, its WAR! After our first time war, we jockeyed into position for Great War 2, and then after the second time warp, we had this whole China war thing. I bet after the third time warp, we'll have Great War 3. :rolleyes:

I've noticed that every time we come out of a time warp, its WAR! After our first time war, we jockeyed into position for Great War 2, and then after the second time warp, we had this whole China war thing. I bet after the third time warp, we'll have Great War 3. :rolleyes:

We have had a lot more major conflicts, haven't we?

Oh yeah, it's an election year in Korea....in E20, Korean politicians get elected every six years.

Vas do you know the populations of Laos and cambodia at this time?

Vas do you know the populations of Laos and cambodia at this time?
Just added a "United States of Southeast Asia" to the list in the Econ Thread. Thanks for reminding me.

I can't remember if that's precisely what you're called. Let me know if I'm wrong, and I'll change it.

Its the United South East Asian States (USEAS) or sometimes shortened to United South East Asia (USEA)

Its the United South East Asian States (USEAS) or sometimes shortened to United South East Asia (USEA)
Fixed.

And as you can see, Viet Nam pretty much dwarfs its neighbors.

VP, please check your telegrams.

Goreing is Comstan, just so you all Know. His posting style is too similar. As well as he posted withing 5 minutes of a deleted Comstan Post in one of my threads.


Thats all the evidence I need, I just think you all should know. I've kicked him in my RP and I suggest you do the same. That guy can't take a frickin hint.

I'm not Comstan I do not even know who that person is. You're going to kick me out because of what Of the council of clan said not right. I'm innocent and I have don't noting to get kicked out.

Goreing is Comstan, just so you all Know. His posting style is too similar. As well as he posted withing 5 minutes of a deleted Comstan Post in one of my threads.


Thats all the evidence I need, I just think you all should know. I've kicked him in my RP and I suggest you do the same. That guy can't take a frickin hint.

marvelous

OOC: When do you think the moderates will keep me or get rid of me? Since I can't be on Monday-Thursday.

It has come to my attention that there has been accusations that Goering is in fact Comstan under a puppet name. After reading his latest posts denying he is Comstan, and that the other roleplay he is involved in, namely the American Civil War RP, I have come to a decision.

I believe that Goering should be booted because of a few reasons.

1. His writing style strongly resembles Comstan's.
2. He comes as Goering right after Comstan was kicked out of E20 (and the American civil war RP)
3. His constant denial of him being Comstan even though he could have said "nope" just once and be done with it arouses my suspicions.

Therefore, Goering is out- masequerading as a puppet to get back into a RP community he was kicked out is a quite low blow, extremely poor sportsmanship, and one of the worst kinds of cheating.

Well, I'm not convinced he's the same person, but if Sharina (who let him in) wants Goreing out, the rules are pretty specific. Sharina can overrule me except in conflict of interest.

He's out. Sorry. Good luck elsewhere.

Well, fine you want me out because of what one person said that is fine with me.

Vas, I have started a new Argentina News thread, which can be found at:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=459898

Would you edit the front page to reflect this?

Where do we direct diplomatic communications to NPC nations?

Where do we direct diplomatic communications to NPC nations?
You either post or TG a specific question directed to the Mods - both Galveston Bay and myself, at least, have degrees in history, and can fairly easily research things we don't already know. If you're thinking of a more game mechanicky kind of thing rather than a historical plausibilty kind of thing, Sharina is the final authority, though any Mod is theoretically qualified to issue rulings.

The French begin a program in French East Africa, gradually replacing French administrators and putting elections in place to elect representatives. The colonies are granted more autonomy and local leadrs are contacted as to what they believe the borders of any future countries should be. All are assured that France wants to work towards a free and independent Africa.

Where do we direct diplomatic communications to NPC nations?

who are you wanting to talk to? Siam would probably be interested in good relations, but not in joining the USEA

who are you wanting to talk to? Siam would probably be interested in good relations, but not in joining the USEA

Ph33r teh GB!
Yeah, anyway I was thinking of opening up diplomatic relations with Siam and maybe giving them some aid next year.

So where should I post this IC communique?

Ph33r teh GB!
Yeah, anyway I was thinking of opening up diplomatic relations with Siam and maybe giving them some aid next year.

So where should I post this IC communique?

your news thread

I'm completely appalled at the audacity of Vas to LIE! He said that I refuse help and assistance, which is a complete bald-faced lie. I constantly asked for help during the 1920's with all my civilian stuff. Dams, electricty, democracy government, Chinese names (when we started out in 1900 and I established my dynasty)... not to mention me asking for approval and feedback on my economic plans. Hell, I even listened to GB's suggestion that I end National Effort in 1933. I was to do so but then Vas dropped this rebellion thing on me.

So for Vas to claim I refuse all help is complete and utter bullshit. I even have evidence if I need to- I could look up E20 posts waaay back in the early 1920's, as well as help on Chinese names and government. I even asked for Chinese names again for the 1930s but strangely Vas, the supposed expert on Chinese stuff, did not help me with Chinese names for my Emperor's son and wife and such.

I also can have some players back me up. GB, Middle Snu, Safehaven (Sweden), etc. know I asked them for help and advice, and I did follow through on them. I followed GB's suggestion to cut my National Effort (if the rebellion and Japan didn't force me into War Economy). I followed Sweden's suggestions for military build-up. I followed Middle Snu's suggestions for economy and point builds.

So once again, why the fuck would Vas lie like that, saying I "refuse" help when in fact I do exactly the opposite. I listen and implement the advice (and in GB's case, approval of my dams, electricty, subways, etc.)



I "blatantly lie," huh?

Sharina, you walk into a dark room, decide not to bother to turn on the light, then blame the darkness for conducting a vendetta against you when you bash your shin against the coffee table.

Your arguments are invariably ad hominem. You take no responsibilty for the consequences of your own ignorance, which in turn you don't try to fix.

Instead you just attack my integrity, my motivations, my judgment, my intelligence, my knowledge, and my fairness. You did the same in the Second Great War with Galveston Bay (in fact we all did), blaming him for lacking objectivity when in fact we had just made some dumb decisions, like bogging our armies down in Italy and not adequately defending our European coastlines.

Your attacks are certainly not making me respect you any more.

You've asked for advice a lot, it's true. And you've gotten it. And you just keep asking. And keep getting it. And keep dithering. And keep postponing decisions. And keep delegating decisions to other people. Then overruling them. Then asking for more advice.

And you still don't actually do any research.

You can hate me. That's fine. I don't care that much about your opinion at this point, because you annoy the fuck out of me. But I keep that separate. Artitsa (for instance) annoys the fuck out of me, too, and you don't see any revolutions happening in Colombia, do you? No. Because he knows what he's doing. When Fluffywuffy was playing Italy, he also annoyed the fuck out of me. You didn't see any revolutions happening in Italy, either, did you? Because he knew what he doing. You don't, as you yourself freely admit.

Ottoman Khaif is about to have a civil war in the MEU. I like Ottoman Khaif a lot, consider him one of my best friends on NS. He even knows what he's doing (and he actually posts having elections, instead of just "assuming" they happen). But the historical circumstances he has to work with make some kind of conflict inevitable.

It's not personal. And I take serious offense at the accusation.

I had two changes of government during the Second Great War, and posted the results, despite all the RL problems I was having. I took care to be sure that orders for the Union would sent by somebody while I was out. You haven't, regardless of what you claim, because orders haven't been received.

I don't like you. It's true. Chiefly because your whining has seriously alienated me. I didn't start out that way. You really ought to grow up.

And if you really want to throw down over who's in charge, I can go there. It'll destroy E20 either way. But I can go there.

Oh goodness gracious...

perhaps it is time for the Race to come and invade?

(please say people have read Harry Turtledove)

Parthini']Oh goodness gracious...

perhaps it is time for the Race to come and invade?

(please say people have read Harry Turtledove)

I read Harry Turtledove, and I have pretty much all his books on the Race (The WW 2, Colonization, and Homeward Bound books) and the Civil War series (Second Mexican War, WW 1, and WW 2).

Parthini']Oh goodness gracious...

perhaps it is time for the Race to come and invade?

(please say people have read Harry Turtledove)

Not a bad idea, really...

Parthini']Oh goodness gracious...

perhaps it is time for the Race to come and invade?

(please say people have read Harry Turtledove)
Race comes and invades..and they just happen to take over the Middle East...I think not...yeah I read alot about that book and not really looking forward for my nation to be pwn by cold blood mofo who get waste by Ginger or something...

*sigh* I hate politics. Guys, is there a chance we can just...let it go? I'd prefer not to have E20 ripped apart by internal struggles. I really love this RP, despite the damn Hungarian agitators. ;)

And TUrledove is okay....I didn't really like his books.

would if help if we had another mod which is non bia in the eyes of everyone to help workout things, since everyone belives each mod has a bia against the other and non bia mod in their eyes, may help defuse the tenison by having one. I offer my services to another realism mod, if needed to be.

Ouch.... poor MEU. Damn, I forgot, Warsaw betrayed us... damn Poles... Yeah, forget that. Let's just continue killing eachother.

Oh and Sharina, I got that TG off.

Parthini']Oh goodness gracious...

perhaps it is time for the Race to come and invade?

(please say people have read Harry Turtledove)

6 more years my friend. (its 1936 right?)

First, as to who is in charge.... I have probably done more work than either you Sharina or Vas as far as game mechanics, research, queries answered etc... so what? Bottom line, I am doing my best to make this RP meet the original standards set... realism, plausability, fun and fairness. Sharina, you have said in as many words that you don't have the RL time to make this work to the degree it needs.

So bottom line, if we go with who is in charge, a lot of us have put in as much work or more into this RP (France, Britian, Colombia, Italy, Rumania, Bulgaria, Brazil, etc.. its a long list) as you have. So any claim that you have to be in charge is long ago superceded by actual ownership of threads (which belong to who posted them) and sheer work done.

If needed, another E20 Main thread could easily be created (and will have to be eventually as there is an upper limit on pages that is allowed from what I understand).

My personal view is that some of the players in this game rely entirely too much on other people doing research. I will not name names, but you know who you are. Now thats ok I suppose for a nation that doesn't have a lot of impact on the Great Power struggles, but really, to play a Great Power, time and research should be reasonably expected by that player.

I have stated over and over that I will no longer give strategic advice except to ensure a reasonable amount of play balance and historical accuracy exists. NPC nations will try to act competently generally, for example, and commanders will not usually throw away troops and expensive warships and aircraft unless the cultural mileau (like for example Japan) requires them to do so, and even then for internally consistant reasons.

After all, I too am a player, and I too want my nation to remain a Great Power and as the US essentially survived the 20th Century as the worlds sole superpower I have alot to live up to. Telling China or Russia how to defeat the US is hardly going to help me achieve my game objectives, and for that matter, is not reasonably plausible or realistic.

You say you have a vision of what you want your nation to be. Well, all of us who are playing have visions of what we want our countries to be and naturally a lot of those visions conflict with other peoples visions.

Hence the frequent (2 Global already) wars in this RP. Which is completely accurate to the 20th Century.

But the biggest problem I have with your playing style can be found here, incidents that occured during the 2nd Great War
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9889485&postcount=406
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9889743&postcount=408
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9889768&postcount=409
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9889998&postcount=414

You have on numerous occasions sent me floods of orders that ended up cancelling each other out or had so many revisions that I required clarification to figure out what the hell you wanted to happen. You have also failed to send me orders for damn near (if not entirely) the whole of the Chinese Civil War thread.

That is a problem in itself.

I am not going to make personal complaints, but as a player at times, you have been exceedingly difficult to work with.

6 more years my friend. (its 1936 right?)

At this point I consider "Footfall" a more interesting plan... Turtledove is pretty good though. I like SM Stirling and Niven & Pournelle better though.

Wouldn't some Draka be fun about now?

Hey! Don't hate on the pseudo-player! I've done my fair share of work... *grumble*

I'm just kidding GB. I love you... even though you thoroughly screwed up my plans... Bastard...

Parthini']Hey! Don't hate on the pseudo-player! I've done my fair share of work... *grumble*

I'm just kidding GB. I love you... even though you thoroughly screwed up my plans... Bastard...

(the list is endless.. chuckle.. I didn't forget about you). And an evil laugh on the screwing up your plans part.

My plans have not been destroyed so much as delayed...

My plans are on a time table....i am a long term kind of player.

My plans have not been destroyed so much as delayed...

I (the US, not the referee) have been particularly mean to France and Germany in this game... but hey, my plans required it. Nothing personal naturally, and I appreciate how both you and Parthini realize that

Long-term is always good. I someday envision France being the hub of Western Europe...Hell, 'm the only major power left in Western continental Europe.

I (the US, not the referee) have been particularly mean to France and Germany in this game... but hey, my plans required it. Nothing personal naturally, and I appreciate how both you and Parthini realize that

Oh I realize that. Part of it is my own fault for doing some stupid stuff...I really should have built more mech corps and a larger airforce. Besides, France will have her revenge...

Heh...my plans haven't been messed up in the least. Of course, I haven't really deviated from history yet, but...meh. I will soon enough. Muahahaha!

I "blatantly lie," huh?

Sharina, you walk into a dark room, decide not to bother to turn on the light, then blame the darkness for conducting a vendetta against you when you bash your shin against the coffee table.

The analogy is flawed. It would be more like I enter a room, turn on the light, and try to figure out a way around all the obstacles in the cluttered room. Or I head to a table and try to figure out the messed up puzzle.

What I mean by that is that I do take advice, suggestions, and hints. Then I try to implement them. For instance, when I asked for economic builds, I listened to the advice (ending national effort of which I would have converted to Government Cuts by 1934 if not for the whole Japanese invasion and civil war). I also asked for help figuring out the government- I was informed to adopt a democratic system similiar to Great Britain and Singapore- keep the Emperor like a King, but have mayors, councilmen, governors, etc. as well as have democratic elections on lawmaking at the town, city, and provincial level.

Your arguments are invariably ad hominem. You take no responsibilty for the consequences of your own ignorance, which in turn you don't try to fix.

I do try to fix my mistakes. In 1933, I started my social services. During the Great War 2, I granted Vietnam independence instead of making a worse mistake by annexing it. I revised my builds and accept Galveston Bay's revisions and rulings on my economy.

Instead you just attack my integrity, my motivations, my judgment, my intelligence, my knowledge, and my fairness. You did the same in the Second Great War with Galveston Bay (in fact we all did), blaming him for lacking objectivity when in fact we had just made some dumb decisions, like bogging our armies down in Italy and not adequately defending our European coastlines.

The only two problems I have with you is...

1. You saying "Sharina refuses to accept help" even though that statement is not true.

2. You saying my elections did not take place even though I clearly responded to the Chinese leaders contacting Chiang Kai Shek to set up elections in December / Janurary. Therefore, the elections should have occured.

Thats the only two issues I have. I don't have a problem with your historical background, fairness (except for these two issues I have), or anything else.

You've asked for advice a lot, it's true. And you've gotten it. And you just keep asking. And keep getting it. And keep dithering. And keep postponing decisions. And keep delegating decisions to other people. Then overruling them. Then asking for more advice.

The only time I actually delayed decisions was during the Great War 2 because I was stuck in a very difficult position. Remain neutral and then have the Pact turn on me, or join the Pact and get raped by the LTA. Before the Great War 2, I didn't have indecisiveness (years of 1900 - 1924). Then I tried to figure out the economic builds for post Great War 2, like everyone else. Then I got slammed with the rebellions, secessions, and the Japanese invasion nearly all at once. Then I was overwhelmed with the sheer amount of posting and actions being taken- that war thread reached 200+ posts in just 3 days. Can you blame anyone for not knowing exactly what to do in such a situation?

And you still don't actually do any research.

As I've stated the other day, the more we advance in years in the timeline, the more divergent it becomes from our RL history. Therefore, it becomes more difficult to apply RL 20th century historical information because the world situation, history, politics, etc. are different in this timeline than in our RL timeline.

Also, there are millions of new people in our timeline that never existed in RL, and millions of RL people don't exist in our timeline- all due from these wars and the pandemic. We could have very different leaders than in RL. For all we know, in our timeline, all these famous 1930's, 1940's, 1950's and 1960's people may have never been born, thus altering history more and more.

New or completely different trends can develop in our timeline than in RL. So again, that makes it hard to pick research informatiom from RL 1920's or 1930's then apply it to the 1920's - 1930's in our timeline. The problem will get worse as we reach the 1950's, 1970's, or 2000's because the world would be more divergent from our RL world than it is right now.

It's not personal. And I take serious offense at the accusation.

And I do take offense that you did these two things to me (saying I refuse help when I never refused it, and ignoring my orders to have Chinese elections in December / Janurary). Fair enough.

I had two changes of government during the Second Great War, and posted the results, despite all the RL problems I was having. I took care to be sure that orders for the Union would sent by somebody while I was out. You haven't, regardless of what you claim, because orders haven't been received.

Lets see. I issued orders for elections to be held. I also issued orders that China signs the cease-fire with Japan. I issued orders for my economy (with a little help- again, help that I somehow "refused"). I even agreed to have Sweden / Safehaven do Chinese stuff to help me out during the crisis. Remember that?

I don't like you. It's true. Chiefly because your whining has seriously alienated me. I didn't start out that way. You really ought to grow up.

I always ask questions. It is my nature, even as a little kid. I always have wanted to know why, how, and what makes things work or happen. Hence me asking Galveston all these questions about his rulings and movements and economic stuff, and so on.

If I was such a whiner, I would still be bitching, whining, and trying to hold onto my Dynasty. Instead, I'm going with the flow. I accepted the Japanese invasion. I accepted the revolutions and secessions. I accepted the end of the Tian Dynasty. And so on.

I could have simply said "screw you, I'm overruling you! blah blah blah!" then destroy E20 in the process. Yet I did not. I don't go around overruling things. In fact, the only issue that may even be construed as an overruling by me was to kick Goering A.K.A. Comstan out. I didn't overrule ANYTHING up to that point. You just claimed that I overrule the advice and suggestions that people gave me. That is not true.

The bottom line is that nobody can or will learn anything if they don't ask questions and "why, how, what". Think of me as the Socrates of E20- trying to understand why and how things happen as they do.

-------------------------------------------------

This bickering aside, the only two issues I have right now is that Vas said I refused help whereas in reality I never refused it. Also, the fact that I ordered elections to be held in December / Janurary and then these elections didn't happen according to Vas (and the election thing is a way for me to fix some of my mistakes and try to reunite China under a democracy).

Once these two issues are resolved, things will get back on track.

That's all.

Yeah, GB, I noticed that. That's why I combined with the Soviet Union.

That and Vas and I balance each other well. I'm more IC agressive, he's more passive. He's more OOC agressive, I'm more OOC passive :p

Also, not to be a bummer, but is the fact that Vas called you a liar or vice versa the whole point of this? If so, take it to the TGs... sheesh.

Yeah, I did some stupid stuff in my day, too. Like attacking Morocco. And Attacking Italy in winter. And Attacking the Alps.... oh man... *slaps himself*

To address GB's concerns...

I do not have any problems with GB. The only issues that may arise between me and GB is me asking him questions about what, why, and how he does his rulings, realsim, economy, moderation, etc. That's because I want to learn how these things work, and why these things are / become possible.

I stated in the other thread that I have very little war experience. I have never written a war story, participated in war RP's in NS, and engaged in war aganist other human players. The only strategy games I have experienced is the Civilization series, Rise of Nations, and Empire Earth. Sim City and Sim Earth to a lesser extent.

Therefore, my strategizing is nearly non-existent, hence me being indecisive when it comes to war that involves my nation (besides me being stuck with the dilemma in the Great War 2 thread, stay neutral and get attacked by the Pact, or go Pact and get attacked by the LTA).

Thus, I need an advisor or two to help me strategize and learn the nuances of warfare. Once I get better acquainted and understand how to strategize better, then my war indecisiveness will fade away to be replaced by a strong determination. For all intents and purposes, I'm still a "child" when it comes to strategy and war gaming.

It seems to me that this dispute comes from a basic difference in expectations on three topics: level of management, ease of play, and the mutability of history.

Sharina wants to handle things on a "strategic" level. Basically, he wants to manage China on a very broad level. From what I've seen, he isn't too interested in the point system, which is very specific. Likewise, he isn't really that interested in giving GB very specific orders during war.

Galveston Bay and Vas want things to be handled at a more "tactical" level. They want to have grand schemes and designs, yes, but they want to manage these schemes very close in, to the point of dictating how much money their governments want to spend on what every year (the point system).

Sharina has suggested that he wants other people to implement his designs on a tactical level:


Thus, I need an advisor or two to help me strategize and learn the nuances of warfare. Once I get better acquainted and understand how to strategize better, then my war indecisiveness will fade away to be replaced by a strong determination. For all intents and purposes, I'm still a "child" when it comes to strategy and war gaming.

This strikes me as a fine solution, and it's already been handled in some ways: Safehaven2 is managing China's battleplans and I'm doing China's builds. As long as both Safehaven2 and I are willing to help Sharina with this, I'm guessing it'll work fine. I would also suggest that someone be appointed to help Sharina on a historical level, and in terms of research since he seems to not want to do it himself. (More on this in the mutability of history post).

Meh. I was going to cover all three differences in expectations in this post, but it would be too long. Expect my take on the other two to come soon.

It seems to me that this dispute comes from a basic difference in expectations on three topics: level of management, ease of play, and the mutability of history.

Sharina wants to handle things on a "strategic" level. Basically, he wants to manage China on a very broad level. From what I've seen, he isn't too interested in the point system, which is very specific. Likewise, he isn't really that interested in giving GB very specific orders during war.

Galveston Bay and Vas want things to be handled at a more "tactical" level. They want to have grand schemes and designs, yes, but they want to manage these schemes very close in, to the point of dictating how much money their governments want to spend on what every year (the point system).

Sharina has suggested that he wants other people to implement his designs on a tactical level:



This strikes me as a fine solution, and it's already been handled in some ways: Safehaven2 is managing China's battleplans and I'm doing China's builds. As long as both Safehaven2 and I are willing to help Sharina with this, I'm guessing it'll work fine. I would also suggest that someone be appointed to help Sharina on a historical level, and in terms of research since he seems to not want to do it himself. (More on this in the mutability of history post).

Meh. I was going to cover all three differences in expectations in this post, but it would be too long. Expect my take on the other two to come soon.

Middle Snu hit the nail on the head.

Here's my issues...

1. I don't know much about war gaming, war planning, and so on.

2. I'm not a good micro-manager

3. I want to play China as a civilization (sorta like the Civilization games) *BUT* if I get more free time, I can RP more intricate details like character RP's or newspaper RP's or daily life RP's.

4. I'm not big on the whole accounting or "sticks and bones" thing. I want to be able to say "Hey, I want to focus on economy" or "I think I need a few ships built" and then thats it. That covers most of the trouble I had with the economic system between 1926 - 1933 with the revisions and such.

EDIT:

I think that E20 should be divided into two groups. The players who want to RP every little detail or enjoy the micro-managing syaye pf affairs, and the players who just want to have a good time and play their nations without having to exhaustively research, accounting, and post every detail.

E20 can continue as normal, but the players can RP according to their own preferences / styles as long as its not completely crazy (like godmodding). That'll allow those with busy RL lives to still be a part of E20 and still be able to run their nations.

I think that E20 should be divided into two groups. The players who want to RP every little detail or enjoy the micro-managing syaye pf affairs, and the players who just want to have a good time and play their nations without having to exhaustively research, accounting, and post every detail.

E20 can continue as normal, but the players can RP according to their own preferences / styles as long as its not completely crazy (like godmodding). That'll allow those with busy RL lives to still be a part of E20 and still be able to run their nations.

I don't know. Frankly, there's something to be said for both sides. So now my question is: how does everyone feel about this? Would you rather have something like to points system, or more freeform? If the majority is massively one way or another, we'll have some valuable information that can help us determine which way to take E20.

As for me, I like the closer level of management. I recall that Spain instituted reforms very near the start of the game. There was a bit of a problem with how fast these reforms would go, how strong the Spanish economic system would be, and so forth. Now we have a system which painlessly expresses this. And if people don't like working the builds, I have offered to do them for them, as I consider myself pretty good at that.

I am strongly against this idea of breaking E20 into two groups , it will led to the lack of realism in one group of the rp,which has ruin number of rp base on rl Earth past. I have seen it. I am said, if a player doesn't want to brother with doing all the little details then tough luck, its very key aspect to this game, we can't just assure things happen on their own. Just this is why we must do the little details for the stake of the rp. Now if a player has problems with it and doesn't understand it like the point, there are players like Middle Snu, Myself and number of others who can help the player in this aspect, I strongly against the idea of breaking E20.

I think that E20 should be divided into two groups. The players who want to RP every little detail or enjoy the micro-managing syaye pf affairs, and the players who just want to have a good time and play their nations without having to exhaustively research, accounting, and post every detail.

E20 can continue as normal, but the players can RP according to their own preferences / styles as long as its not completely crazy (like godmodding). That'll allow those with busy RL lives to still be a part of E20 and still be able to run their nations.

I, for one, am not a staunch supporter of the point system. I joined E20 to contribute to an entertaining alternate history of the world, not to crunch numbers. Fortunately, South Africa is poor compared to the US or the Soviet Union; I've only got a dozen points to figure out.

That being said, we do need some objective measure of progress. Before the point system was instituted, news threads were filled with proclamations of "massive reforms" and "economic improvements," without any scale as to how long those reforms would take, how effective they would be, and what effect they would have on the nation (from political, social, and economic standpoints). I myself am guilty of this.

If we were to have nations that "micromanaged" (with the point system) interact with those who have a "broad view," how are we going to compare those nations? We can't, not easily or fairly. There are too many variables in the general, strategic aspects of this role-play.

As much as it annoys me sometimes, the point system (or some other objective, empirical measure of progress) is necessary to keep E20 functioning with any amount of realism. That doesn't mean we need to micromanage everything, but I think the current system, while it certainly has problems, is the best tool we have at the moment. Major congratulations to GB, Vas, and any other Mods or players that helped with it.

My opinion, for what that's worth.

Hmm...

Allow me to clarify better.

E20 will remain intact- everybody will still be in E20. It won't be split into smaller groups or anything. What I meant was that there are some players in E20 who prefer to micro-manage and pay attention to detail. However, there are other players who either do not have the skills (yet) or the time to micro-manage things owing to RL issues or other reasons.

Take me for example. Last summer I had a lot of free time to RP the little details, write up a brief history (1900 - 1908 I believe), and able to respond IC'ly with my high quality RP posts. However, my time went downhill within the past few months- my surgery, then recuperation, then the implantation, then getting a new job, then a new girlfriend, then now this big website project (to top it off, a lot of holiday and birthday parties for me to go to).

Thus, my RP'ing time is down by quite a bit. I can make OOC comments as they don't require lots of research or frustration or trying to refine the post to story-like quality. Hiowever, I can't respond quickly to decisions within a few hours. I need a few days at most to make my decisions, considering the severe time limitations I have lately (RL-wise for RP).



There are also some people who are quite inexperienced at the understanding and doings of war gaming or warfare in general. There are also some who can't grasp the intriacties of accounting, number crunching, or the like. Everybody is good at one thing and weak at another, and allowances must be made for that. So if these players who don't have the skills to do these can get advisors like I do with Middle Snu and Safehaven, then it will go a long way to helping out.

That way, the "dummies" will slowly learn how to manage an economy, wage war realistically (not the NS crap with uber-numbers or uber-tech), and learn other useful skills.

-----------------------------

The way I can see to resolve the "War of the Mods" is to have Vas retract his claim of "Sharina refuses help" (because that claim is not true) and the Chinese elections are held (as I ordered them to be).

Then we can move on and continue E20 RP'ing.

The way I can see to resolve the "War of the Mods" is to have Vas retract his claim of "Sharina refuses help" (because that claim is not true) and the Chinese elections are held (as I ordered them to be).

Then we can move on and continue E20 RP'ing.

Not to sound too negative, but your solution is to have people do things your way. In conflict resolution, you should be willing to make concessions.

Also, I want to clarify my earlier question to the group. I wasn't asking "do you like the points system." That's just an example of the larger question that we need to come to a consensus on:

On what level of detail do we want to play this game?

Not to sound too negative, but your solution is to have people do things your way. In conflict resolution, you should be willing to make concessions.

Also, I want to clarify my earlier question to the group. I wasn't asking "do you like the points system." That's just an example of the larger question that we need to come to a consensus on:

On what level of detail do we want to play this game?
Let me state my opinion on the detail question, we need just enough detail so we are still within the fame of realism...we don't have post like I build a Stop sign in town XYZ, just enough info get an what's the state of your nation and how things are going in thems of social makeup and how the people feel about your government. We don't get to post every little detail on anything we do, The Point System has been a great help for, it allows us to know our limits and realize we can't some items like we want...and makes us think about what the hell we are doing and do we really to build 20 battleships and feed our people...that's one of the reasons we have points to know our limits as nations.

Not to sound too negative, but your solution is to have people do things your way. In conflict resolution, you should be willing to make concessions.

Also, I want to clarify my earlier question to the group. I wasn't asking "do you like the points system." That's just an example of the larger question that we need to come to a consensus on:

On what level of detail do we want to play this game?

Sorry about that. I'm still upset that Vas made that false claim.

Anyways, Ottoman Khaif brings up a good point. I do agree that there does need to be detail, just not too much or too little of it. Status of your nation, popular opinion, current domestic policies, the health level of the populace, how well the nation's economy is, and its current military strength should be enough detail for veterans and newbie alike.

It should be optional for players who want to go into more detail or micro-manage on a level more complex than the one outlined above. Also, players should be able to issue either extreme specific orders or rough orders and have them be carried out. For example, if Nation X wants to initate complex tactical manuevers, he / she can list the orders and lay it all out. However, if Nation Y just wants to order some ships to be built or focus its industry on economic improvement, then the following year, either ships or economic improvements are made.

Specific and general orders should be accepted. That should solve one of our problems, at least.

Specific and general orders should be accepted. That should solve one of our problems, at least.

If we were to have nations that "micromanaged" (with the point system) interact with those who have a "broad view," how are we going to compare those nations? We can't, not easily or fairly. There are too many variables in the general, strategic aspects of this role-play.

That says it all.

I expect at least some orders....and I haven't been given them. I want at the very least objective (what you want your military to do... like capture France, capture Paris, or kill bad guys so you can do either). Sharina you did that during the 2nd Great War, but you have not done so during your Civil War.

I do not want to have to keep track of two different sets of players as economic and military mod. The apparent consensus is that the point system, although not perfect, does a reasonable job of simulating reality in a reasonably playable format. It is still a work in progress, and I am correcting problems as they develop. Its not easy inventing a game system as you play it. But amazingly, it works for the most part.

I came up with the point system for just the reasons Ottoman stated, and it has done exactly what he said. We no longer have vague pronouncements and impossible military forces, and going to war definitely has a cost in game terms.

Which simulates why war is a bad thing, not to be undertaken lightly.

I suggest Sharina that if you are too busy to handle things right now, that you step down as a mod, and I suggest Middle Snu be considered as your replacement in that capacity.

I also want to thank Middle Snu for his objectivity and calm.

You're welcome. :)

I would suggest that we keep taking opinions for at least 24 hours more. While it seems like the consensus is that the level of micromanagement is about right right now, we've only heard the opinions of a few people.

i was trying to stay as far away from the arguements as possible, but my concensus is that the system is fine right now, players can go as deep into it as they want, or ask people to help them, and just give out objectives. I for one am a micromanager, i put officers into position, select equipment, pick out diplomats, ministers, plan socialist coups, and participate in Peace Keeping all over the world. Usually i give over control of my troops so that they work with my allies, much like any European nation does.

So keep it how it is....my choice.

Initially, I really disliked the point system, but it as since grown on me. Easy (for me as a small country) to keep track of and once you know what is going on, easy to use. I vote to keep it.

I expect at least some orders....and I haven't been given them. I want at the very least objective (what you want your military to do... like capture France, capture Paris, or kill bad guys so you can do either). Sharina you did that during the 2nd Great War, but you have not done so during your Civil War.

I do not want to have to keep track of two different sets of players as economic and military mod. The apparent consensus is that the point system, although not perfect, does a reasonable job of simulating reality in a reasonably playable format. It is still a work in progress, and I am correcting problems as they develop. Its not easy inventing a game system as you play it. But amazingly, it works for the most part.

I came up with the point system for just the reasons Ottoman stated, and it has done exactly what he said. We no longer have vague pronouncements and impossible military forces, and going to war definitely has a cost in game terms.

Which simulates why war is a bad thing, not to be undertaken lightly.

I suggest Sharina that if you are too busy to handle things right now, that you step down as a mod, and I suggest Middle Snu be considered as your replacement in that capacity.

I also want to thank Middle Snu for his objectivity and calm.

Kinda hard to do when the Civil War thread hits 200+ posts in just 3 days. If it was somewhat slower paced, then I think I *could* manage better.

I don't have any problems with the point system now that I have someone to help me figure it out.

Kinda hard to do when the Civil War thread hits 200+ posts in just 3 days. If it was somewhat slower paced, then I think I *could* manage better.

We're now on two seperate topics: the Chinese Civil War and the general level of micromanagement in the game. Since the China situation doesn't really pertain to us, the non-mod masses, could you continue this through telegram?

Thanks. :)

We're now on two seperate topics: the Chinese Civil War and the general level of micromanagement in the game. Since the China situation doesn't really pertain to us, the non-mod masses, could you continue this through telegram?

Thanks. :)

Will do. I was simply answering GB's question, thats all. Back to the point system topic at hand.

Again, I have no problem with the point system as long as someone helps me "accounting" it out.

Let me state my opinion on the detail question, we need just enough detail so we are still within the fame of realism...we don't have post like I build a Stop sign in town XYZ, just enough info get an what's the state of your nation and how things are going in thems of social makeup and how the people feel about your government. We don't get to post every little detail on anything we do, The Point System has been a great help for, it allows us to know our limits and realize we can't some items like we want...and makes us think about what the hell we are doing and do we really to build 20 battleships and feed our people...that's one of the reasons we have points to know our limits as nations.

I have to agree. Without the point system, we'd have to many abuses of realism in a game that already has the mods playing catch-up. I don't always agree with GB's and Vas's decisions, especially when dealing with the whole China affair, but I think their doin their best to remain objective in situations like that.

They aren't perfect, the mods don't always understand what we mean especially when half the players here (myself included) don't know what their saying themselves, but I feel they honestly do what they believe is right, and I can't think of a better compliment for a mod or a person in general.

If you don't agree with their opinions, if you can't rectify yourself with their rulings, appeal, keep playing, or leave the game. I hate to see any current player leave, but its that simple. Like my grandmother used to say: 'If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.'

Safehaven2 is managing China's battleplans and I'm doing China's builds. As long as both Safehaven2 and I are willing to help Sharina with this, I'm guessing it'll work fine. I would also suggest that someone be appointed to help Sharina on a historical level, and in terms of research since he seems to not want to do it himself. (More on this in the mutability of history post).
I've no problem in principle with collaborative efforts at running a country - obviously not, since my own country is a collaborative effort. But if other people are handling China's economic, military, and historical aspects, one wonders exactly what Sharina will not have outsourced. That makes no difference to me, though, except as a Moderator, when I have to know whose instructions to follow.

The way I can see to resolve the "War of the Mods" is to have Vas retract his claim of "Sharina refuses help" (because that claim is not true) and the Chinese elections are held (as I ordered them to be).

Then we can move on and continue E20 RP'ing.
Sharina is more-or-less correct that he issued "orders" for elections to take place: he just didn't actually conduct them. If he expected someone else to, he should have informed both the person and the other moderators. Some things happen automatically - obviously we can't be expected to decide the outcome of every mayoral race - but when we don't bother to even make a single post mentioning that national elections have ever happened, we shouldn't be surprised if, as is historically plausible, our "democratic reforms" turn out to be ineffective or corrupt.

Sharina has refused help inasmuch as he's issued orders that are incompatible with those of Safehaven2 or Middle Snu, demanded that his take precedence, but furthermore expected that whatever results happen be those that are preferential to him. Like saying that he doesn't want to waste points on rebuilding factories, then wondering why his factories aren't rebuilt.

I don't consider this to be a false claim, but if someone can read through the War in China (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=457589) thread and find some consistent examples to disprove my argument, I'll retract it. But that wasn't what Sharina was saying, anyway. He was calling me a liar.

This is and has been a real problem - people not accepting rulings by attacking the character of the Moderator issuing them. It happened during the Second Great War, and it's happening again. I was as guilty as anybody during the former, and the point system, the military system, and the battle maps are the result of that dispute. Once I had access to those, I came to realize what GB was basing his decisions on, and I agreed with them - we in the Pact screwed up, and badly. The attacks on his character continued among some people in the Hamburg High Command chatzy, however, and Sharina was one of those people. Lately he's been doing the same to me.

I told him, as a historian with specifically a degree in Chinese history, that based on his policies the Tian dynasty was finished. I offered advice on how he could either move China in a democratic or a fascist direction, and I told him specifically that it would be difficult and would take a lot of skill and luck to pull off either result - there are a multitude of sound reasons as to why China went Communist in RL, and some of them are actually stronger in E20. I have advised Sharina repeatedly to research modern Chinese history, as is stated as enforceable in the very first post in this very thread.

Sharina has seen fit to dispute that, both privately and publicly, on the basis of projected "divergences." There have been divergences. In fact they've been particularly massive in the Union. But if you don't even have to know what you're diverging from, then it's not an Alternate History RP, it's just an Earth XLII (or whatever) with vague references to real cultures - or rather to popular American stereotypes of real cultures.

I'm not saying that's wrong. There's no reason why people shouldn't be able to do that. It's not what I signed on for, and it's not what I want for E20. If other people do, then I suppose I'll be forced into retirement.

We'll see. But again, this is a digression from, well, what I see as the main issue.

Now I'm not going to say "trust me or I quit" like GB did back during the Second Great War -

Wait a second. Maybe I am. I earned my knowledge over many years of deep study and analysis, and I've put a hell of a lot of work into E20 (the only reason GB has done more is because he's more dictatorial - he's a father, I'm a cat-herder). And I've used that knowledge for better and for worse, for many players, without prejudice.

And if my reward for all that is to have my integrity called into question whenever in my educated judgment I say that things go poorly for someone who stays willfully ignorant (do you know who Song Jiaoren is, Sharina? Do you even know who Prince Tuan actually was?) and who expects things he wants to happen to just happen "automatically," then I think I have a freakin' right to be pissed.

But enough. I've said my piece. I have, really, only one demand:

Quit making personal attacks whenever a Moderator rules against you.

I am the History Moderator, a position I've assumed as a result of those years of study. It's as important a position as War Moderator, and I take it very seriously.

I'm willing to accept disputes of my rulings which are based on actual knowledge. I am not willing to accept disputes on the basis of purely hypothesized "divergence."

If someone can dispute my rulings based on nothing more than an argument that amounts to saying "things are different," then as far as I'm concerned the whole purpose of this RP is fatally compromised.

And if someone can dispute my rulings simply by insinuating that I'm abusing my position in order to pursue OoC goals (as Sharina has in the Hamburg High Command chatzy), then as far as I'm concerned there's no point for me to even bother.

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would like to see me go. If that's the consensus, I will.

as a father, you are all grounded (chuckle)

seriously though, I value Vas's input, and he is an important check for me on accuracy, as my specilizations are in historical anthropology, military history and 20th Century European and American history.

Wow. That's one hell of a post.

If I may, I would like to postpone the discussion about moderator trustworthyness/doubting the mods/personal attacks.

While I realize that I really can't know what your thoughts are exactly, I think that this is an important issue, and one that will continue haunting us if we don't address it now. Your post actually brings me to my second question for everyone:

To what extent should we use history as a basis for what happens?

Sharina seems to believe that we should basically allow for a minimal historical basis. While Vas refers to "divergences" with scorn, it's one way to play the game: have little to no respect for what happened historically. The other is to make everything have a historical basis. Considering this is a game, we should only consider only one thing: What will make the game more fun? Clearly, Sharina would have more fun in an E20 where countries can go whichever way they please; Vas wants an E20 where things have more of a historical basis. So I'd like to open this question up to everyone: which version would you rather play in?

Once we have a consensus on that, we can continue with the game more easily.

And as a cat-herder, I'm going to go play with the cat for the rest of the night.

Oi.

There are solutions to these issues. I had to really let myself rant there for a bit, but there are solutions. But these issues also needed to be brought out into the open and discussed frankly.

I'll be back tomorrow to see what others think.

Good night. And know that I don't despise any of you - you're all smart, interesting, well-intentioned people. And there are solutions, we just have to find them.

Hmm... I always thought of Vas as the gay mother...

ok... I went to far ><

but I won't erase it MUHAHAHA!!!

erm... I value Mom, I mean, VP's input too. Hell, if it weren't for him, I'd probably be under a crapload of Anglicized restrictions and preparing myself for an uncreative Facist Revolution. I think I would've had it be a Politically Correct Fascist state... that would've been fun :p

That and I would be forced to actually have to do something as assisstant (heaven forbid)... this must be what being Cheney is like, minus the heart attacks :p

Enough of my musings! I say, we stop insulting each other's character and start TGing insults about each other's mothers. Much more civil. That and we can finally go to space. I REALLY want to go to space. My goal for this RP is to have the first Space Battle before the end of the Century. Onward!

France will beat ALL of you to space. Just watch. (Vas, Parthini...I'll give you the technology of my space panzerfausts.)

Anyway, it's my personal opinon that we need to keep the point system. At times it gets annoying, especially for the large nations, but that's the trade-off. We need to have a system in place.

As for the historical thing...I'd like to see some historical precedence. Otherwise we get things like Facist Canada.

Parthini']Hmm... I always thought of Vas as the gay mother...

ok... I went to far ><

but I won't erase it MUHAHAHA!!!

erm... I value Mom, I mean, VP's input too. Hell, if it weren't for him, I'd probably be under a crapload of Anglicized restrictions and preparing myself for an uncreative Facist Revolution. I think I would've had it be a Politically Correct Fascist state... that would've been fun :p

That and I would be forced to actually have to do something as assisstant (heaven forbid)... this must be what being Cheney is like, minus the heart attacks :p

Enough of my musings! I say, we stop insulting each other's character and start TGing insults about each other's mothers. Much more civil. That and we can finally go to space. I REALLY want to go to space. My goal for this RP is to have the first Space Battle before the end of the Century. Onward!
If I weren't so confident in my masculinity, I'd be offended, rather than merely annoyed.

As for the historical thing...I'd like to see some historical precedence. Otherwise we get things like Facist Canada.

I agree. We can't ignore divergence from reality, though; that would destroy the point of alternate history. I think Sharina makes good points about taking this into account, it's just that history hasn't diverged that far, yet. After all, people who were born in 1900 are now 36, and probably aren't national leaders or influential figures in economics or politics yet.

Divergence from actual history will affect us a lot more in, say, 1976 than it does in 1936.

Oh, and have fun with the cat, Vas.

MY felings on this matte are that we should try to keep E20 together as one group as much as possible. Fragmentation can only lead to the demise of this RP as a whole, which would be a terrible wast eof everyone's time and effort.

As to the points system. I am personally a fan of it, not only does it maintain realism it also makes it easier for everyone to work out their military sizes etc. and contributes much to this RP.

Okay, a few things then it'll be the end of that.

First, I only called Vas a liar based on the fact that he said that I refused help whereas I do the opposite- I ask for help and advice instead of refusing it. Therein lies the "lie". I am not attacking anything else of Vas- such as his historical knowledge, skill, ability, etc. When someone says you did something you didn't, you have to respond and call them on it, which I did. Nothing more, nothing less. We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this topic. Moving on.

Second, I do need help with the military and economic aspects of China because for one thing, I am very inexperienced at war gaming or tactical skills. The only war gaming / tactical skills I have is playing Civilization games, Rise of Nations, and Empire Earth (all computer games). So I need someone to teach me skills for military and war gaming- there's a reason why I never participate or write war RP's either here at NS or any fanfiction forum. As for the economy, I know a little bit, like basics of supply and demand, the need for money and capital, and the differences between economic modes (wartime economy as opposed to peacetime economy). The only frustrating part I have is trying to figure out my economic builds using the point system, *BUT* if I have someone like Middle Snu help me with the point system, then I have no problem with the point system whatsoever. I need "training" in figuring the point system out just like I need it with the war gaming aspect of E20. As it stands now, if I war game directly with anyone here- let it be a game of Risk, Chess, Warcraft, Starcraft, or other multiplayer online RTS game, I'll automatically lose within the first 1 or 2 minutes. Thats how bad I suck at war gaming.

Basically, I need an advisor for both military and economy so that I can learn how to do these things, improve my skills and understanding of them, and then be able to do it on my own after a bit. With Safehaven teaching me about the military aspects, and Middle Snu teaching me about the economic aspects, I believe I should be all set. Thats all I want- is for a couple of people to teach me so that I won't be so inexperienced and not sure on what to do. If I get more experience and understanding, I won't be as indecisive as I am when it comes to critical situations especially warfare.


Third, as for the elections. I ordered them to take place by December / Janurary, but I did not have the time to do a multi-paragraph RP detailing the elections. If I had the time, then I would have been able to do so, no problem. Sometimes I feel like that civil war (and the subsquent post-invasion events) went too fast for me to sit back, analyze what I think needs to be done. I need a few days to do a process- take stock of the situation, process the information, ask for advice (if needed), decide on a course of action, then transform it all into RP. As it stands now, the only time I have to really do RP is on the weekends when I can sit down at my computer and hammer out RP's with all the details, specifics, and such. I don't have much time on the weekdays because of my big website project then I get home, sometimes I'm too exhausted to cook my own dinners. I didn't have much time this past weekend though because my girlfriend came over for the whole day on Saturday, then I had quite a few things to do on Sunday then went to watch the new King Kong movie (3 hours long).

All I ask in regards to RP and decision-making is that I'm given time to do it, then RP it out considering my RL situation I'm in. Or if the RP needs to be more fast paced, then I will have to have someone else make the decisions for me for the nation (as I won't be able to keep up with rapid speeds). Thats where my advisors come in- like Safehaven. He can make rough decisions for China if I'm not able to RP out the decision-making in a rapid manner.



Fourth, to address the following...

Sharina has refused help inasmuch as he's issued orders that are incompatible with those of Safehaven2 or Middle Snu, demanded that his take precedence, but furthermore expected that whatever results happen be those that are preferential to him. Like saying that he doesn't want to waste points on rebuilding factories, then wondering why his factories aren't rebuilt.

I haven't issued orders incompatible with Safehaven or Middle Snu. In fact, I posted Middle Snu's builds for my economy for 1935 and 1936. Safehaven and I agreed on the course of action during the Chinese civil war, like trying to retake the Chinese city (can't remember name- Tiantin or Tjianin or something) where the Japanese used gas attacks to counterattack. He and I also worked with France to set up a war plan and coordinate between Chinese and French forces during the civil war. The general plan agreed on was the air superiority first, then rush in with ground units, and set up defensive lines along the river west of the Japanese held territory.

Moving on....


Fifth, as for the directions, government, and divergence thing. Again, I don't have much time to do exhaustive research for political systems, politican names, and 1930's trends in China. The only time that I may be able to do research is on the weekends for the same reasons I'm only able to do good quality RP posts on the weekends. The availablity of free time as opposed to a lack of it during the weekdays. If I had more free time, then I'd be more able to exhaustively research (2+ hours of research) the politic systems, trends, and characters.

I gave the go ahead for the elections in December / Janurary based on the suggestions I recieved. I wanted to have the elections as a first step towards the effort to get either a democratic or facist China. However, again, time is a luxury that I have little of as opposed to some of the other E20'ers. I just need time to really sit down, use hours of my time to research, and then decide on a course of action (which can only happen on the weekends).



Finally, I only question rulings to understand why, how, and what they are based on, and the reasoning behind it *so that* I can learn from it. I don't go around overruling these rulings. In fact, the only issue that could be construed as an overruling by me is the booting of Goering from E20 (I booted him). I don't try to have everything go in my favor, or use "overrules" to get my way. I accepted the loss of my dynasty, I accepted the rebellion, I accepted the Japanese invasion, and so on. I could have easily said "I overrule this. This cannot happen!" and made a lot of worse fighting and problems than we have right now.

I accepted GB's economic rulings after asking him why he ruled the way he did. The same goes for military or other stuff. I ask "Hey, why did this happen?" or "Wait a minute! How is this possible?" then once I get an answer, I pretty much go "Okay, point taken. Continue." instead of dragging the whole thing through mud a million times.

Socrates himself believed that in order to learn a great deal, you must ask questions. You can consider me the Socrates of E20. If I don't ask these questions of rulings and why things happen as they do, then how else am I going to learn much needed war gaming, tactical, and economic savvy and skills?

-----------------------------------

All this aside....

To address the point system. It appears that the majority of E20 supports it, despite the fact that some of the players stated they aren't big fans of it. Therefore, I decree that the point system will stay. For the players who have difficulty with it, help should be provided in figuring the "accounting" part of it. Middle Snu fits the bill nicely, so we shouldn't have any more problem with the point system.

Mod Ruling: Point system stays, and if players need help "accounting", they are to get it.


As for Middle Snu's propsal.

Sharina seems to believe that we should basically allow for a minimal historical basis. While Vas refers to "divergences" with scorn, it's one way to play the game: have little to no respect for what happened historically. The other is to make everything have a historical basis. Considering this is a game, we should only consider only one thing: What will make the game more fun? Clearly, Sharina would have more fun in an E20 where countries can go whichever way they please; Vas wants an E20 where things have more of a historical basis. So I'd like to open this question up to everyone: which version would you rather play in?

Please hold discussion on this for the next few days then decide on a course of action to address this.

Personally for me, I don't mind having a historical basis. The only issue I have with that is that there may come points in time when people can't do exhaustive research due to busy RL stuff or only having limited internet access (either from parent punishment, unable to pay bills for cable or AOL, or other possible reasons).

The further along we get into E20, the harder it becomes to follow historical precedents. For example, suppose in 1950, France becomes facist? There being two Panama Canals (the latest development between the USA and Colombia in this timeline)? RL famous people, leaders, or scientists surviving longer in our timeline as opposed to RL, and vice versa? These things may completely change history- for all we know there may not be a Women Rights movement. There may be no need for Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X to rail aganist injustices aganist black people (and subsquently got assassinated in RL). Or there being no nuclear weapons ever being used (no Hiroshima and Nagaski). No Cold War. No Cuban Missile Crisis. No Iraq War (Gulf War 1 and 2). There may be a multi-national mission to the moon instead of a solely American effort. And so on. Each of these events defined our RL history, RL trends, and RL cultures- some of the prequisites for these RL things have either been changed or are non-existent in our timeline.

This is what I'm coming from in terms of divergence and the difficulty on having a historical basis off RL history. We will end up having to create our own history at one point.

Anyways, my opinion aside, again, please discuss Middle Snu's proposal.

-------------------------------

One last thing....

The Chinese elections are held. The outcome is a 50 / 50 split between the nationalists and the communists. I cannot think of any major Chinese characters for the role of Prime Minister, Governors, and so on other than the Chinese characters like Mao Zedong, Chen Duxiu, Song Jiaoren and Hu Shi (They will have roles in the new government, but I need more names and characters for other government postings). My Prime Minister will probably be Song Jiaoren who was one of the founders of the Kuomintang Party but was assassinated in 1913 (He wasn't assasinated in this timeline due to the Tian Dynasty).

Several things:

1st:
As much as I like to hear everyone arguing, can we move it to the realm of chatzy or do it through TG's? No sense in scarring of new blood.

2nd:
Just a heads up, I will be gone from Dec. 25 - Jan. 1st and will not be able to post anything between then as I will be deep in the woods camping.

and 3rd:
GB, please check your TG's por favor.

Back on my lunch break.

When I was talking with my boss today, he told me I had next week off, along with all the school teachers, administrators, techies, and so on. Apparently he must have forgot to tell me that earlier when I started the job as recently I asked him if there were any deadlines for next week.

So I'll have quite a bit of free time next week to do some research and do catching up on my RP'ing. Thank god for small favors. I'll be able to have hours to sit down and type up my high quality RP's, and I'll be able to expand more on the elections. My girlfriend is going on a cruise ship trip for the whole of next month (Jan.) so my weekends will also be better for me to spend time RP'ing here as I will not have to worry about not being able to log-in online to do my stuff.

I'm headed off for a while. I'll be back later tonight.

due to the holidays I expect most players will be busy... So don't expect a lot of wars to be breaking out. I intend to deal with pressing game housekeeping measures during my vacation. (cleaning up some things, refreshing economic data etc)

Oh really? I was expecting to start a German Indepenance movement with LTA support :p

well I'll be off to France for the next week, so expect even less RPing from me.

Parthini']Oh really? I was expecting to start a German Indepenance movement with LTA support :p

feel free to do that AFTER the new year

Oh really? I was expecting to start a German Indepenance movement with LTA support

If you like we can just work around the lack of a military mod and just say it happens successfully anyway, and then Russia, Mongolia and Manchuria collapse and the victorious LTA armies march across the world to victory!

First of all, with apologies to Kordo, this needs to be out in the open. With apologies to Rodenka and Ottoman Khaif, this isn't just petty power politics among Mods (wow, that would be pathetic: "I must be sole dictator of a totally imaginary universe!"), as has become clear, but rather a harrowing of some pretty critical issues, such as what should the role of realism be in E20, and what acceptable guidelines of accountability should we follow, and how are they to be enforced?

The further along we get into E20, the harder it becomes to follow historical precedents. For example, suppose in 1950, France becomes facist? There being two Panama Canals (the latest development between the USA and Colombia in this timeline)? RL famous people, leaders, or scientists surviving longer in our timeline as opposed to RL, and vice versa? These things may completely change history- for all we know there may not be a Women Rights movement. There may be no need for Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X to rail aganist injustices aganist black people (and subsquently got assassinated in RL). Or there being no nuclear weapons ever being used (no Hiroshima and Nagaski). No Cold War. No Cuban Missile Crisis. No Iraq War (Gulf War 1 and 2). There may be a multi-national mission to the moon instead of a solely American effort. And so on. Each of these events defined our RL history, RL trends, and RL cultures- some of the prequisites for these RL things have either been changed or are non-existent in our timeline.

This is what I'm coming from in terms of divergence and the difficulty on having a historical basis off RL history. We will end up having to create our own history at one point.
I am being seriously misinterpreted if believe that I'm saying divergence shouldn't happen. For God's sake, I had my Revolution in 1911, either six years late or seven years early depending on your point of view. I executed Lenin and Stalin immediately. The Tsar's family (and legitimate heir) is still alive and married into the royal house of Italy. Russia's two staunchest allies have been the Germans and the Turks. My President is a guy who was assassinated in RL in 1934, whereas in this timeline he became a war hero and is having an affair with Leni Rieffenstahl, of all people.

I could go on, but all that should have made my point.

There was a point in time where the Russian Revolution could have been avoided entirely, simply by having Nikolai II die of wounds he received at the siege of Szolnok. I almost did that, but decided that playing Russia as a constitutional monarchy would be dull. If the Allies had pushed to the bitter end in the Second Great War, and occupied either Russia or Germany, the Socialists would have been permanently discredited and a Fascist backlash would have been inevitable - and then things would have diverged even more, as Russian and German radical reactionaries would have come to power and E20 would have been a very different place indeed.

Among other things, the Holocaust hasn't happened (yet?), so Racialism and anti-Semitism are still not discredited, except that the only thing keeping them at bay is the fact that both the world's superpowers are a lot more liberal and pluralist in E20 than they were in reality. Socialism is vastly more widespread. Colonial Empires have been peacefully disintegrating for years.

I don't have a problem with divergence. I have a problem with uneducated divergences that aren't based on any viable possibilities which can be verified by research. Because unless we have some standards we're all accountable to, we can basically say anything. I could have, for instance, played Tsar Nikolai as a competent and popular leader instead of the well-meaning but savage and ignorant tyrant he actually was. Then I could say that "Socialism never caught on in Russia because I had a popular dynasty that was trying to make Russia strong." If I were totally ignorant of what Nikolai was really like, and of why the Revolution happened, I might have done that.

And it would have been lame. And unverifiable. And it would have effectively constituted a unilateral declaration on my part that I would be held to no standards save my own.

And that is what Sharina's defense of "divergence" amounts to.


Second, I do need help with the military and economic aspects of China because for one thing, I am very inexperienced at war gaming or tactical skills. The only war gaming / tactical skills I have is playing Civilization games, Rise of Nations, and Empire Earth (all computer games). So I need someone to teach me skills for military and war gaming- there's a reason why I never participate or write war RP's either here at NS or any fanfiction forum. As for the economy, I know a little bit, like basics of supply and demand, the need for money and capital, and the differences between economic modes (wartime economy as opposed to peacetime economy). The only frustrating part I have is trying to figure out my economic builds using the point system, *BUT* if I have someone like Middle Snu help me with the point system, then I have no problem with the point system whatsoever. I need "training" in figuring the point system out just like I need it with the war gaming aspect of E20. As it stands now, if I war game directly with anyone here- let it be a game of Risk, Chess, Warcraft, Starcraft, or other multiplayer online RTS game, I'll automatically lose within the first 1 or 2 minutes. Thats how bad I suck at war gaming.

Basically, I need an advisor for both military and economy so that I can learn how to do these things, improve my skills and understanding of them, and then be able to do it on my own after a bit. With Safehaven teaching me about the military aspects, and Middle Snu teaching me about the economic aspects, I believe I should be all set. Thats all I want- is for a couple of people to teach me so that I won't be so inexperienced and not sure on what to do. If I get more experience and understanding, I won't be as indecisive as I am when it comes to critical situations especially warfare.
As I say, I have no objection to collaborative efforts in running a country, though it seems to me that if you're that far in over head, you probably should've picked something less challenging and more familiar to you than China. Like Canada or Iceland or something.

You saw the potential for power in China - that's why you chose it. You've said as much on numerous occasions. You didn't see the problems except on the surface, and thought (apparently) that a few surface changes would suffice to make China a superpower.

If anything, your problems in China are there because you didn't diverge enough. That's been my whole point all along.


We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this topic. Moving on.
If that's the end of the personal attacks, I welcome this.

Third, as for the elections. I ordered them to take place by December / Janurary, but I did not have the time to do a multi-paragraph RP detailing the elections. If I had the time, then I would have been able to do so, no problem.
One sentence, on either Sunday or Monday, would have been sufficient: "Elections occur - I'll post the results later when I have more time."

Not once in the entire RP did you ever show elections in China having any effect on your government or your policies. If you had, there would have been justification for giving you the benefit of the doubt. But the only people we've ever seen from you are the mostly imaginary Guozu and totally imaginary Lu Hong. No Prime Ministers, no Chief Justices, no leaders of any political parties, no labor organizers - nothing. Nothing whatsoever to indicate that democracy has ever been going on in China. At all. Just some comments about "reforms" happening. If that's enough, then, again, what you're really saying is that you should be held to lower standards than, say, me. Or Lesser Ribena. Or Galveston Bay, or Ottoman Khaif, or Malkyer, or Gintonpar, or Artitsa, or Philanchez, or Fluffywuffy, or anyone else in the whole E20 community who's actually bothered, even once, to post the results of an election. Even Moorington posted conducting elections - he just god-modded the results. Are you seriously saying you shouldn't even be required to do as much for realism's sake as E20's most notorious god-modder?

Sometimes I feel like that civil war (and the subsquent post-invasion events) went too fast for me to sit back, analyze what I think needs to be done. I need a few days to do a process- take stock of the situation, process the information, ask for advice (if needed), decide on a course of action, then transform it all into RP. As it stands now, the only time I have to really do RP is on the weekends when I can sit down at my computer and hammer out RP's with all the details, specifics, and such. I don't have much time on the weekdays because of my big website project then I get home, sometimes I'm too exhausted to cook my own dinners. I didn't have much time this past weekend though because my girlfriend came over for the whole day on Saturday, then I had quite a few things to do on Sunday then went to watch the new King Kong movie (3 hours long).

All I ask in regards to RP and decision-making is that I'm given time to do it, then RP it out considering my RL situation I'm in. Or if the RP needs to be more fast paced, then I will have to have someone else make the decisions for me for the nation (as I won't be able to keep up with rapid speeds). Thats where my advisors come in- like Safehaven. He can make rough decisions for China if I'm not able to RP out the decision-making in a rapid manner.

. . .

Fifth, as for the directions, government, and divergence thing. Again, I don't have much time to do exhaustive research for political systems, politican names, and 1930's trends in China. The only time that I may be able to do research is on the weekends for the same reasons I'm only able to do good quality RP posts on the weekends. The availablity of free time as opposed to a lack of it during the weekdays. If I had more free time, then I'd be more able to exhaustively research (2+ hours of research) the politic systems, trends, and characters.

I gave the go ahead for the elections in December / Janurary based on the suggestions I recieved. I wanted to have the elections as a first step towards the effort to get either a democratic or facist China. However, again, time is a luxury that I have little of as opposed to some of the other E20'ers. I just need time to really sit down, use hours of my time to research, and then decide on a course of action (which can only happen on the weekends).
You make this sound perfectly reasonable, but yet again what you're asking for is a double-standard. Kordo missed a few days during the First Great War and lost his entire country. The same thing happened to Philanchez in the Second Great War. It could just as easily happen to me, or Galveston Bay, or Fluffywuffy, or any of the rest of us. Why should you be held to different standards? Because you feel overwhelmed? Because you haven't done any research?

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you're too busy, appoint a substitute, and don't claim "supreme authority" to overrule that substitute whenever you might have an extra five minutes. And if you're not qualified, expect to be pwned. Those are the same standards that the rest of us have to follow.

These are the pertinent issues that I have with you on a Moderator/Player basis. The rest of our argument seems to be mostly just the results of us getting annoyed with one another, however justly, and as those are more personal criticisms, I'll drop them.


One last thing....

The Chinese elections are held. The outcome is a 50 / 50 split between the nationalists and the communists. I cannot think of any major Chinese characters for the role of Prime Minister, Governors, and so on other than the Chinese characters like Mao Zedong, Chen Duxiu, Song Jiaoren and Hu Shi (They will have roles in the new government, but I need more names and characters for other government postings). My Prime Minister will probably be Song Jiaoren who was one of the founders of the Kuomintang Party but was assassinated in 1913 (He wasn't assasinated in this timeline due to the Tian Dynasty).
As long as they're held in April, I don't have a problem with this. I will note, however, that Chen Duxiu is actually the Manchurian separatist leader (as was fairly clear from the thread), along with Kang Sheng, Lin Biao, Wang Ming, and Liu Shaoqi, among others.

The main Leftist politicians in China proper are Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping (both radicals), the more popular Hu Shi (a moderate and liberal), and Zhou Enlai (neither as radical as Mao nor as liberal as Hu). The main Leftist military leaders are Mao Zedong, Liu Bocheng, and Zhu De.

The main Rightist military and political leaders are Generalissimo Jiang Jieshi, of course, his political allies Dai Li (head of the national police), Liu Zhi, and Chen Cheng, and Jiang's rivals Li Zongren, Yan Xishan, Zhang Zuolin and Zhang's extremely popular son Zhang Xueliang. Sun Yat-sen's widow and Jiang Jieshi's sister-in-law Song Qingling (Rosamund Soong) is also an important political figure of the You faction, as is her more right-leaning sister (Generalissimo Jiang's wife) Song Meiling.

And, as the History Moderator, I'll approve of Song Jiaoren as Prime Minister - he's a good choice. His most important right-leaning moderate ally is probably Cai Yuanpei.

However. I shouldn't have to tell you all this stuff. As the player for China, you should take a responsibility to learn it on your own. If you can't do that, then in all honesty I don't think you're qualified to play China. That may be harsh or whatever, but it's what I honestly think, and it has nothing to do with how I may feel about you personally.

If you like we can just work around the lack of a military mod and just say it happens successfully anyway, and then Russia, Mongolia and Manchuria collapse and the victorious LTA armies march across the world to victory!

chuckle.. Anglo American hegemony would be a nice Christmas present

You make this sound perfectly reasonable, but yet again what you're asking for is a double-standard. Kordo missed a few days during the First Great War and lost his entire country. The same thing happened to Philanchez in the Second Great War. It could just as easily happen to me, or Galveston Bay, or Fluffywuffy, or any of the rest of us. Why should you be held to different standards? Because you feel overwhelmed? Because you haven't done any research?

I have to agree completely with the above. It is a major complaint I have as well.

chuckle.. Anglo American hegemony would be a nice Christmas present
Until you realize that I've taken control of the Anglo-American Empire under President Alger Hiss . . .

Heck, I didn't miss any days and still lost my country. :(

I keed, I keed...:p

Listen man, you've gotta learn to roll with punches. Even if you lose you can still win. For example had the occupation gone on much longer there would'v been a major resistance movement. And if the war had stretched on with no end in sight, Fance most ikely would've gone facist after the war. Always have a backup plan for when you lose. And a backup backup plan.

As I've heard it said:

Make a plan B, because plan A won't work. Then make a plan C because B probably won't work either. And then make a plan D.

As I say, I have no objection to collaborative efforts in running a country, though it seems to me that if you're that far in over head, you probably should've picked something less challenging and more familiar to you than China. Like Canada or Iceland or something.

I'll be able to devote more time to sorting all the domestic stuff out, do more research, and such next week as I apparently have a vacation (my boss just told me today that I'll have the same vacations as the school teachers and faculty). So by the end of next week I won't be as overwhelmed or crazy.

If that's the end of the personal attacks, I welcome this.

It's ended. You have your opinion of me, and I have my opinion of you. Leave it at that and move on.


You make this sound perfectly reasonable, but yet again what you're asking for is a double-standard. Kordo missed a few days during the First Great War and lost his entire country. The same thing happened to Philanchez in the Second Great War. It could just as easily happen to me, or Galveston Bay, or Fluffywuffy, or any of the rest of us. Why should you be held to different standards? Because you feel overwhelmed? Because you haven't done any research?

That doesn't make any sense at all. If you're too busy, appoint a substitute, and don't claim "supreme authority" to overrule that substitute whenever you might have an extra five minutes. And if you're not qualified, expect to be pwned. Those are the same standards that the rest of us have to follow.

See above.

I never overruled anyone or anything except the Goering situation. The substitute can RP out China or whatever nation, but as long as the substitute knows what general direction the original player wants the substitute to take the nation in during the player's absence.

As long as they're held in April, I don't have a problem with this. I will note, however, that Chen Duxiu is actually the Manchurian separatist leader (as was fairly clear from the thread), along with Kang Sheng, Lin Biao, Wang Ming, and Liu Shaoqi, among others.

Noted.

The main Leftist politicians in China proper are Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping (both radicals), the more popular Hu Shi (a moderate and liberal), and Zhou Enlai (neither as radical as Mao nor as liberal as Hu). The main Leftist military leaders are Mao Zedong, Liu Bocheng, and Zhu De.

The main Rightist military and political leaders are Generalissimo Jiang Jieshi, of course, his political allies Dai Li (head of the national police), Liu Zhi, and Chen Cheng, and Jiang's rivals Li Zongren, Yan Xishan, Zhang Zuolin and Zhang's extremely popular son Zhang Xueliang. Sun Yat-sen's widow and Jiang Jieshi's sister-in-law Song Qingling (Rosamund Soong) is also an important political figure of the You faction, as is her more right-leaning sister (Generalissimo Jiang's wife) Song Meiling.

And, as the History Moderator, I'll approve of Song Jiaoren as Prime Minister - he's a good choice. His most important right-leaning moderate ally is probably Cai Yuanpei.

However. I shouldn't have to tell you all this stuff. As the player for China, you should take a responsibility to learn it on your own. If you can't do that, then in all honesty I don't think you're qualified to play China. That may be harsh or whatever, but it's what I honestly think, and it has nothing to do with how I may feel about you personally.

Once again, I am going to have more time to sort all of this out next week when I have my vacation. I'll be able to look up each of these leaders and then install them into positions in the new government according to their characterstics.

Then I can do a few newspaper or radio news annoucements about the elections, new domestic policies, and so forth.

Then I suppose we have consensus. Hopefully it won't get this bad again.

If the Japanese player doesn't show up like in a week or so, I think we may need a replacement player, because Japan was important around this time period and without an active Japan would be a problem for some of us.

Well, Fluffywuffy's been gone nearly two weeks (at least) without having told anyone. I've attempted communication with him, as has Galveston Bay, and neither of us has received any response.

Japan is de facto derelict. I'll accept applications for Japan starting . . . now.

If the Japanese player doesn't show up like in a week or so, I think we may need a replacement player, because Japan was important around this time period and without an active Japan would be a problem for some of us.

I agree, I nominate the South African or Yugoslav players or you.

Unfortunately, all three of the players you've nominated are playing their particular obsessions, and probably won't accept.

thanks for the offer for Japan...but I have too much stake as the MEU,so no thanks. Yet I do have strong backgound in Japan, since I am a big fan of the IJN...but that's another story...

I'd nominate Middle Snu. He seems like he knows what he's doing, and he's a good player from what I can see.

I'd nominate Middle Snu. He seems like he knows what he's doing, and he's a good player from what I can see.
I second that, Middle Snu can make a good Japan.

I agree, I nominate the South African or Yugoslav players or you.

Well, thanks for the nomination. But I know less about Japanese society and history than Comstan knew about...most things.

I agree with Rodenka and Ottoman Khaif. Middle Snu sounds like a good choice.

I think that you forget that I've been posting for about a week and a half, and I've been playing for three days. Plus, my knowledge of Japanese history is nil. I would suggest that we try and recruit a new player to play Japan. Anyone have any ideas?

Well, I think Middle Snu's doing a good job as Argentina anyway and if he doesn't want Japan we may have to get a new player in. It's probably about time for some new blood anyway.

thanks for the offer for Japan...but I have too much stake as the MEU,so no thanks. Yet I do have strong backgound in Japan, since I am a big fan of the IJN...but that's another story...

which is why I picked you

What about Artisa or Kordo... Kordo lost Great Power status because of the 1st Great War, and Artisa has been playing a secondary power the whole game.

Haha bring back Comstan.

Comstan as Japan... *shudder*.

GB, is there any reason why we can't have a new player?

Comstan as Japan... *shudder*.

GB, is there any reason why we can't have a new player?
Its because we need a player who knows what he is doing in terms of points and know thing or two about Japan. If we find a new player who knows alot about Japan, then we can let a new guy take over.

Oooh!

I have a good idea, if you guys don't mind a total newbie. He's a good friend of mine and he's been following it. He's a MAJOR warmonger (in RL too...) and would, IMO be perfect. I just hope you wouldn't mind someone who had never roleplayed. I can introduce it to him since I'm going to his house :p

not that my opinion matters, but i think Artista would be good to take over japan.

not that my opinion matters, but i think Artista would be good to take over japan.

Please come back Council! We miss you! :P

Council, if you want to come back that'd be great. Otherwise, I'd lean towards Parthini's friend. New players is a good thing.

not that my opinion matters, but i think Artista would be good to take over japan.
I'd second this. Artitsa would be a good choice.

And I suppose you could have it back if you wanted it, but I'd be surprised if you did.

A tenative claim for Japan unless someone really wants it or Parthini's friend shows up. My only restraint is that I have very little knowledge of Japan.

I'd support this, too. Kordo's a good player who's pretty much wasted in Hungary.

A tenative claim for Japan unless someone really wants it or Parthini's friend shows up. My only restraint is that I have very little knowledge of Japan.

Hmm..would you switch before or after we finish this stuff with Transylvania? And I would totally support Kordo for Japan.

Hmm..would you switch before or after we finish this stuff with Transylvania? And I would totally support Kordo for Japan.

You just want me out of your hair.....

Excellent question though...it really depends on if a) if Parthini's friend is interested/competent (or if anyone else really wants it for that matter) and b) if the mods are willing to cut me a lot of slack in the begining as I get used RP'ing as Japan.

You just want me out of your hair.....

Excellent question though...it really depends on if a) if Parthini's friend is interested/competent (or if anyone else really wants it for that matter) and b) if the mods are willing to cut me a lot of slack in the begining as I get used RP'ing as Japan.

Mebbe I do ;) It wold leave me free to take over Hungary without much trouble :p

I'd support this, too. Kordo's a good player who's pretty much wasted in Hungary.

aye I agree with VP , Kordo does have that imperialist aspect down petty good as the AH, he did a good job playing it, even thought...we killed his empire..that's another story for another day..just dont' repeat that with Japan...

I'd sooner have an experienced player as Japan than a n00b. We've been having enough trouble with Japanese players lately - a known and reliable player is, in my opinion, what's needed. They don't have to be from E20, necessarily, but experience in NS is a necessity at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

Hell, Rodenka's the one who wanted the aircraft carrier, maybe he should have it and let Hungary take Transylvania.

But right now I'm still thinking Kordo's the best choice.

I see your point, but someone who Parthini actually knows is quite different from some random guy who says "hey, can I be Japan?" Plus, it's going to be pretty hard to attract new players if we say "yes, you can play, but you be an important nation."

But I really have to defer to the mods on this one.

Yeah, Parthini knows him and all, but you have to realize that I know Parthini.

Er.. Vas or GB could either one of you reply to the diplomatic Communique to Siam in my thread, thanks.

Well...I might regret this but I'll take the position as Japan. I will need someone to really hold my hand and walk me through Japan's current state and the like at the begining though.

Well...I might regret this but I'll take the position as Japan. I will need someone to really hold my hand and walk me through Japan's current state and the like at the begining though.
Well if you end up taking this position as Japan, just contact me on AIM, and I can advise you on stuff and etc and you can give the MEU...six units of Zeros as payment for my help...just kidding..I'll help you for free...

Well if you end up taking this position as Japan, just contact me on AIM, and I can advise you on stuff and etc and you can give the MEU...six units of Zeros as payment for my help...just kidding..I'll help you for free...

I can provide some quick advice, too. I know some things about pre-and-during-WWII Japan in our timeline, if that helps.

I can provide some quick advice, too. I know some things about pre-and-during-WWII Japan in our timeline, if that helps.

Thank you sir, I just skimmed the Japanese news thread and not much was in there. Anything you can provide would be very helpful.

It's a done deal, then - Kordo is the new Japan.

If you decide to make a new link, TG me at Vas Pokhoronim.

Gambare!

dangit i missed all the posts about me as a prospective for japan! I was going to create the Kerberos Panzer Cops to deal with public backlash, poor the kids into the factories to build Mobile Suits, and then pwn the world....

Tito is watching....and Romania, don't touch Hungary, they are my nuclear testing facility...once i get a nuke.....which will be 2058 when i go rogue.

Thank you sir, I just skimmed the Japanese news thread and not much was in there. Anything you can provide would be very helpful.

Japanese military forces are current and are posted toward the end of the China War thread... I will move them to the old Japanese thread, or your new thread (when you create it). The Navy has the most influence at the moment, because they have triumphed in two wars, while the Army has done well but has not due to political reasons been either to win either in China or Siberia. Thus the Navy's views are dominate at the moment. Japan gets oil from the US and Dutch East Indies, along with steel from the US. It owns Hainan Island and Formosa (Taiwan). It also recently traded the Kuriles and Sakkalin Islands to the Union in exchange for a lot of money, which was used immediately.

Japan just signed a peace treaty with China and beginning in 1937 will be at peace, required National Effort, Peacetime Spending or Reduced Spending as economic choices. I posted Japanese production alongside of their military forces as well.

This timeline, we do not yet have a Fascist type Japan. So its pretty open. However Socialism is extremely unlikely to get a foothold in Japan because of its very traditional and conservative culture. Japan spends at a level 2 social safety net to ensure an educated work force, as education is venerated in Japan.

If Japan cuts its military spending it could very easily take off a generation early into the capitalist giant it is today. Japan is not currently in any alliances and is not part of the League of Nations, but did sign the Geneva Convention banning chemical and biological warfare (after using nerve gas against the Chinese).

Japan was allied to the US for nearly 25 years, and could easily go to the LTA again, or remain neutral, or pick an alliance of convienence if it decided to become Imperialist. Alone among the Great Powers, it has the most flexibility of options at this point.

Japan is tech level 6, and is about 2 years behind the US in electronics, slightly behind the US and Union in most other technology, and has the third largest and most powerful navy, without the same committments the British and Americans have.

During the China War the US provided Japan with B17s (early models) during the time the Union declared war on Japan.

Thanks GB!

Now to be a military or economic power house? Decisions, decisions....

Now to be a military or economic power house? Decisions, decisions....

Go economic, then give me points ;).

Thank you sir, I just skimmed the Japanese news thread and not much was in there. Anything you can provide would be very helpful.

The key thing here is obviously, the Japanese just got off of a major war with China. Also, the Japanese in our E20 timeline are pretty expansionistic, though a little more willing to retreat than the diehards of RL. You may or may not have any number of nationalist societies working to promote aggressive Japanese expansion at others' expense (like the Sakurakai/Cherry Blossom Society or the Black Ocean Society), and carrying on internal intrigues, with or without the involvement of the army (again, since this is E20, things may be different). And try to get your men trained for urban combat and interaction with civilians (along with providing more MPs)- part of the reason the Rape of Nanking happened, according to Soldiers of the Sun by Meirion and Susan Harries. An excellnt book, BTW-I suggest you read it, gives a good insight into what made the IJA tick in an accessible format.

I'd second this. Artitsa would be a good choice.

And I suppose you could have it back if you wanted it, but I'd be surprised if you did.



Vas you know why I won't come back. And besides i'm too busy lately.

New News Thread for Japan: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=460509

Fixed.

Yeah, Parthini knows him and all, but you have to realize that I know Parthini.

What does that mean....

Pssh... I forgot to ask him anyways. Too busy dominating in Rome: Total War. He can stay an observer, muhahaha!

I belives its Mar of 1936 and Egypt should be having a vote on the question to remain a Joint Protectorate of MEU and Britan or become their own free nation, we need the mod ruling on this matter. Althought we know the outcome would be their own nation...but bah..we need a ruling on it.

I belives its Mar of 1936 and Egypt should be having a vote on the question to remain a Joint Protectorate of MEU and Britan or become their own free nation, we need the mod ruling on this matter. Althought we know the outcome would be their own nation...but bah..we need a ruling on it.

the Egyptians vote for independence.... now they want to hold elections to create a government (with an election in March 1937). They want independence to begin in May 1937

the Egyptians vote for independence.... now they want to hold elections to create a government (with an election in March 1937). They want independence to begin in May 1937
After results of the vote were made public the MEU reorganize the independence state of Egypt and will be pulling its remaining forces in the area come Jan.1, 1937. Also the MEU government will grant newfound state, some aid (points) to the nation build itself up come 1937.

OOC:I believe Egypt, would fall under the rule of King Farouk of Egypt, and its government would be a European-style constitutional government, like rl Egypt of this timeline.

Japanese officials contact the Dutch government about possible purchasing the East Indies from them.

Japanese officials contact the Dutch government about possible purchasing the East Indies from them.


OOC:Barking up the wrong tree with that. I've been trying that the WHOLE EFFFIN GAME!!!

OOC:Barking up the wrong tree with that. I've been trying that the WHOLE EFFFIN GAME!!!

I'm hoping that after hearing what Japan did to China they will take the hint. Not that I have any IC plans to do.....anything so don't worry.

I'm hoping that after hearing what Japan did to China they will take the hint. Not that I have any IC plans to do.....anything so don't worry.

The Dutch have the advantage of having firm US and British backing all game, so they feel fairly confident. Plus Indonesia is vital to their economy.

Again, I'll be gone from Dec. 25 - Jan. 1

Just a heads up everyone, and Ottoman Khaif will be covering for me if anything comes up. Not that anything should.

Again, I'll be gone from Dec. 25 - Jan. 1

Just a heads up everyone, and Ottoman Khaif will be covering for me if anything comes up. Not that anything should.
Yeah don't worry about it, I won't invade some random asian nations, while your gone..goes and looks at a map of Asia...yeah I won't invade anyone nation...I swear...

Haha... you should invade yourself...

Yeah don't worry about it, I won't invade some random asian nations, while your gone..goes and looks at a map of Aisa...yeah I won't invade anyone nation...I swear...

*Cowers in bunker*

Although the Sovereign Republic of China is currently at peace, it is a tense peace. In RL, the Communists and Nationalists only worked together as a "United Front" until Chiang Kai-shek (E20's Jiang Jieshi) felt strong enough to violently suppress them and establish his fascistic "New Life Movement." The Generalissimo was also of the opinion, during WWII, that if one's house is burning while bandits attack, you first put out the fire, then deal with the bandits. Because of this he used his armies mainly to fight the Communists rather than the Japanese invaders.

It is probable, with Sharina running him, that E20's Generalissimo Jiang will make different decisions (although I don't see why he realistically would). But even so, it is quite likely that Civil War will resume in China, one way or another, within a couple of years.

Therefore, to avoid a possible conflict of interest as someone both moderating and conducting a war, I will accept applications for the position of Mao Zedong.

It is probable, with Sharina running him, that E20's Generalissimo Jiang will make different decisions (although I don't see why he realistically would). But even so, it is quite likely that Civil War will resume in China, one way or another, within a couple of years.

Will that mean Kim Il-Sung and his band Korean Communist hard-liners will see some action? ICly, he's probably hungry for action, and hoping Chiang/Jiang (using both transliterations, I prefer "Chaing") will mess up.

What have I missed on the oast week or two. My computer needed to be repaired.

Another civil war? I hope it's against the communists. That way, I can send some of the units in my new army to go fight them. A la Italy in the Spanish Civil War. Of course, it's not like there's anyone to kill BUT the communists...

To answer with a single word both our brave Korean comrades and our wretched vile filthy Indian pig-dog worm-scum enemies: Yes.

At least, assuming (A) a Mao can be found, and (B) Sharina doesn't figure out how to avoid another round of hostilities - if that's even possible.

Alright, so Emperor Hirohito will be conducting a world-wide good will tour and I'm wondering who is interested in having him vist, even if breifly. I've already contacted the main nations that I'm interested in (the MEU, the Union, and USA) but if anyone else is interested in having him come just let me know and I'll let you know.

Sorry Sharina, China's probably not going to be one of the nations he visits.

EDIT: It will probably be brief since I will be gone next week and I don't know how much time I'll have in the next two days. Don't expect me to post to much in-depth info, probably just a short speech and then on to the next news thread.

I too will be pretty busy until Tuesday.. I will check in as I can, but I have 4 kids, a birthday for one tomorrow, christmas eve stuff the next day, and short travel after that...


So figure bad weather prevents any major fighting anywhere, plus we have uneasy peace in the principal troublespots at the moment.

I would like to apply to the position of Mao Zedong.

EDIT:
I promise I'll be as hardline and stalinist as rl Mao was, if accepted that is

After results of the vote were made public the MEU reorganize the independence state of Egypt and will be pulling its remaining forces in the area come Jan.1, 1937. Also the MEU government will grant newfound state, some aid (points) to the nation build itself up come 1937.

Britain announces publically that it's forces will abide by the same timetable and total wothdrawal has been set for Jan 1st 1937. Britain will also grant the nation foreign aid.

After results of the vote were made public the MEU reorganize the independence state of Egypt and will be pulling its remaining forces in the area come Jan.1, 1937. Also the MEU government will grant newfound state, some aid (points) to the nation build itself up come 1937.

Britain announces publically that it's forces will abide by the same timetable and total withdrawal has been set for Jan 1st 1937. Britain will also grant the nation foreign aid.

Britain will maintain her port facilities at Bur Sa'id (Port Said) and will maintain ownership of the Suez Canal and as-Suways (Suez) region. This is in accordence with correspondence with the future governnment of Egypt.


OOC: The last bit probably won't be known yet but I wanted to post it now as I don't think any of us will have any time over the next few days. Oh and it's also with GB's permission as the NPC mod.

I was wondering since the name of E20 keeps on coming up on the International Incidents. What is E20? It looks like fun to play.

Too late for me to join as Italy?

Essentially what we're doing is roleplaying out the whole of the 20th century. There are some realism controls such as a points system to control your economies and (very) occasionally someone will do something so historically impossible that the mods may have to enforce a change on them. Otherwise we basically do what we think will help our nations better themselves and become world powers. If you're interested I am sure that we could let you play as one of the smaller world powers if you TG Hrstrovokia and provide an example or two of some RPs you've been involved in previously (not necessarily on NS).

E20 is an alternate history roleplay where each player picks a country and roleplays its development from the year 1900 to 2000 (and beyond). So far we have reached the year 1936.
We have a fixed time scale of 1 RL week = 1 E20 year.
Actual economic development is governed by a points system, but political and social development is largely left up to the player.

We have several major countries requiring players and many smaller countries.
So do you want play?

Inkana, nope. Nations are always up for players and as long as you TG Hrstrovokia with an application and a few examples of previous RPs we'd be happy to have a new Italy player, but bear in mind that Italy did previously have a player and so much of the past has been RPed differently but this alternate Italy may be even more fun to play than a historical one!

This is just an idea but i think it might be easier on everybody concerned if we had a centralized NPC thread where all NPC nations would be listed and communicatios towards NPC nations would be directed.

This is just an idea but i think it might be easier on everybody concerned if we had a centralized NPC thread where all NPC nations would be listed and communicatios towards NPC nations would be directed.

thats not a bad idea, I will do something along those lines after the holidays

thats not a bad idea, I will do something along those lines after the holidays
You probably have enough to do, and I think that's actually more under the History Moderator's jurisdiction anyway.

Besides, it'd give me something to do besides abuse Sharina.

E20 NPC Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=460771).

A link will also be added to the First Post.

Alright, so Emperor Hirohito will be conducting a world-wide good will tour and I'm wondering who is interested in having him vist, even if breifly. I've already contacted the main nations that I'm interested in (the MEU, the Union, and USA) but if anyone else is interested in having him come just let me know and I'll let you know.

Sorry Sharina, China's probably not going to be one of the nations he visits.

EDIT: It will probably be brief since I will be gone next week and I don't know how much time I'll have in the next two days. Don't expect me to post to much in-depth info, probably just a short speech and then on to the next news thread.
He could see troubled litle ole Bhutan.

Alright, so here is the order:

Argentiana
America
MEU (assuming he doesn't mind since he hasn't gotten back to me)
Russia
Bhutan (depending if I have enough time before I leave)

Inkana is confirmed as Italy.

So what do I have to do to join E20?

So what do I have to do to join E20?

Read the front page. If you're still interested, follow the directions on the front page.

Applications must be submitted to Vas Pokhoronim, and links provided to two RP samples.

Just TG Vas and say "I want to join E20 as (name of unclaimed NPC), you can find samples of my roleplaying here (link to a thread) and here (link to a thread)."

Read the front page. If you're still interested, follow the directions on the front page.



Just TG Vas and say "I want to join E20 as (name of unclaimed NPC), you can find samples of my roleplaying here (link to a thread) and here (link to a thread)."

or you could just be like Middle Snu and pop in and offer Economic Advise to all the players. And show that you understand the system even better than the mods.

Inkana... I hope you like Communism... Muhahahah!

Erm... Welcome!

Unless overruled, I am going to bring Of the council of clan back to E20 in a capacity uniqely suited to his qualifications and proclivities.

As the Insurgents.

Henceforward, any side in an internal conflict which is not actually run by the player of a given country will be commanded by Of the council of clan. If the uprising is victorious, the player will not be ejected, but will be compelled to play as the new government, with whatever insane or distasteful (or, I shudder to think, liberal or democratic) ideology or practices the new government has.

Personally, I think this is an awesome idea. However, before I confirm it, I'd like to hear feedback from the community.

Unless overruled, I am going to bring Of the council of clan back to E20 in a capacity uniqely suited to his qualifications and proclivities.

As the Insurgents.

Henceforward, any side in an internal conflict which is not actually run by the player of a given country will be commanded by Of the council of clan. If the uprising is victorious, the player will not be ejected, but will be compelled to play as the new government, with whatever insane or distasteful (or, I shudder to think, liberal or democratic) ideology or practices the new government has.

Personally, I think this is an awesome idea. However, before I confirm it, I'd like to hear feedback from the community.

Intriguing. I likey. This would obviously mean he gets command of the Reds in China when the poopy hits the fan, yes?

Seems like a good idea to me.

Precisely.

Or the Reds in India, or the ANC in South Africa, or the House of Sa'ud in the MEU, or the Islamist Basmachi in Turkestan, or any terrorist or guerrilla or insurgent group anywhere that needs someone to run it, should the occasion and need arise.

Oh, one question. If the player of the country wants to join the insurgents, then will CoC play the loyalists?

Parthini']Inkana... I hope you like Communism... Muhahahah!

Erm... Welcome!

I have to say, I'm not too prone to it, no. :D

Thank you!

Oh, one question. If the player of the country wants to join the insurgents, then will CoC play the loyalists?
He and I haven't discussed that.

If he wants to, then yes. Otherwise loyalists will probably be run by . . . I don't know, whoever.

I have to say, I'm not too prone to it, no. :D

Thank you!
Don't worry. My Komrade is just being silly. We have no plans to turn Italy Communist.

We'll just kill you all.

I think that having a dedicated "Insurgent" is a really good idea. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't let Council do it.

I think its very good idea to have someone to specifically RP the rebels. It'll make things a lot easier for a lot of people.

I say go for it, it sounds good.

Precisely.

Or the Reds in India, or the ANC in South Africa, or the House of Sa'ud in the MEU, or the Islamist Basmachi in Turkestan, or any terrorist or guerrilla or insurgent group anywhere that needs someone to run it, should the occasion and need arise.

Oh noes! India has so many insurgent groups (in RL too) it's not funny.

But I think 'tis a good idea. However, doncha think he might have problems getting the facts right? I mean, there's a big difference between communist Cubans and radical islamists.

I support the idea of Council of Clan playing the rebel faction of whatever nation that has a civil war.

Assuming there are no other objections seeing that most of E20 apparently agrees, I thus affix my final judgement call on this issue by declaring that Council of Clan will henceforth play as "Rebels".

Thus it has been said, and let it be done.

He and I haven't discussed that.

If he wants to, then yes. Otherwise loyalists will probably be run by . . . I don't know, whoever.

subject to combat handled by war mod, I agree with Clan handling the Rebels, and if need be, I can handle Loyalist groups should it be needed.