NationStates Jolt Archive

Surface vessels are definitely becoming less and less useful. Truthfully, it is hard for anything to stay useful for long when completely wankish weapons are introduced around here on a daily basis. Naturally, the wankier the weapon, the more popular it is (see DMG's storefront and the Khan Anti-Ship Missile).

Remeber, Khan is PMT, nations that are MT that are using PMT missiles are the wankers, not the designer or missile itself.

Also, finally someone who realizes how shit DMG's storefront is.

EDIT: Best way to intercept khan = laser to the side of it [instaboom because of liquid fuel] or long range hyperonic SAMs/AAMs launched at it during the boost phase or cruise phase.

Look at the Pacific War, when one battle, midway, ended the war for a nation, then yeah, carriers are a huge investment, but there is no better ships out there.

Yeah, it's true that carriers were amazing in WWII, that they were the real war winners, with battleships left useless. A carrier is much cheaper, much more dangerous and much faster than a battleship - so, bye-bye battleships.

Now, though, you've got submarines which are cheaper than carriers, and which can launch deadly supersonic ship killer missiles from underwater. They can sneak around, get near the enemy, let loose, then sneak away again. A modern nuclear submarine doesn't need to surface for air, and can stay active for months on end. And, it can fire missiles without even needing to surface. With individual missiles becoming increasingly deadly, that can mean a lot. Especially since, when a submarine is underwater, the water itself acts as a sort of armour, preventing most missiles from penetrating to strike at the submarine. Factor in deadly torpedo attacks and the fact that a sub costs much less than a carrier, and you've got a new war winner, as far as I'm able to see.

(Plus air support can increasingly be provided from land bases in the homeland reguardless of where the action is going down - modern aircraft have amazing range).

Basically, that's how I see it. I'm fully open to counter-arguements, though - I'm not a naval officer, and there could be factors that I'm missing.

Actually, CWIS isn't going to hit a Kahn at all. You have to resort to other measures.

I know - I was just listing everything I've got. To deal with the Khans I use a combination of really advanced ECM, the aforementioned special hull designs, ECM drones and drones using flares to confuse its IR guidance.

Remeber, Khan is PMT, nations that are MT that are using PMT missiles are the wankers, not the designer or missile itself.

Also, finally someone who realizes how shit DMG's storefront is.

Actually, while I would definitely agree that at this point the idea of the Khan is most certainly PMT, the idea of something like the Khan being used at some point in the future seems more and more likely each day. It seems like that's the way to go, with subs that launch missiles like the Khan, as opposed to aircraft carriers. At least that's how I'm interpreting things.

EDIT: Best way to intercept khan = laser to the side of it [instaboom because of liquid fuel] or long range hyperonic SAMs/AAMs launched at it during the boost phase or cruise phase.

Good idea. I'm already using counter-missiles - I'll have to add the laser idea to my defensive arsenal. Thanks for the tip!

Actually, CWIS isn't going to hit a Kahn at all. You have to resort to other measures.
Well, if you don't care about ammo loss you can adopt a 'spray and pray' attitude towards where you estimate the Khan will fly; preferably massed enfilading fire from an angle to minimize the effects of evasion. But yeah, massed DP gun and even main gun fire (if AA shells are available, like the Japanese 'beehive' rounds Yamato and her sisters could use) to create ye olde 'wall of lead' in the sky between a target ship and the Khan is the only half-serious close-in defense I can think of; and that not much since it's also 'spray and pray' with only somewhat better odds against a 7-second defense window than the massed CIWS enfilade has, even combined with IR/EO countermeasures like flares and such.

Good idea. I'm already using counter-missiles - I'll have to add the laser idea to my defensive arsenal. Thanks for the tip!
Naval THELs are good (despite the wrangling during the Saan Galli fight over them), but yeah fleet ABMs like Standard III or S-400F are your best bets against Khan. As I experienced in Galli, you either catch the Khan early or else your odds of catching it at all get exponentially smaller with each new flight stage of the missile commencing. Another good idea is to mass your escorts' deployment on the most likely 'threat axis' you feel you'll face attack or contact from; perhaps multiple axes even depending on the threats involved (air, surface, sub, &c).

Take me off the list.

I use RIM-162s. Best thing I could think of.

Take me off the list.

We don't need traitors like you! Go run off to your NPE friends Buddha boy... :D

We don't need traitors like you! Go run off to your NPE friends Buddha boy... :D

*Nudges Maldorians*


Traitors eh? Remember that when you yourself are invaded, that you are a traitor to the NPE. Treason is a crime punished only by death. ;)

*Nudges Maldorians*


Traitors eh? Remember that when you yourself are invaded, that you are a traitor to the NPE. Treason is a crime punished only by death. ;)

Oh don't worry, I'm already getting invaded. :)

Oh don't worry, I'm already getting invaded. :)

*Annexes Mal before letting him join ADAN...
I joke.
Thus, circumventing the ADAN charter.
And since it ain't my military...

Wow, it was only luck that helped me reveal the comment underneath that.
I'm surprised I never thought of this.

Good idea. I'm already using counter-missiles - I'll have to add the laser idea to my defensive arsenal. Thanks for the tip!


Here is my plan for the next time someone shoots Khans at me at in a PMT war...

Upon detecting the ICBM launch, I turn my ships to fact the incoming missiles in order to present the smallest target profile possible. Traveling at Mach 11.8, the Khans will have a hard time making the course corrections needed to hit a vastly smaller target than the broadside.

Then I have microwave directed energy weapons (http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/journal_homemad.html) mounted on the fronts of my ships. They cover a wide area with powerful microwaves, which will fry the Khans' electronics. Even if the Khans' electronics are hardened, its fuel explodes.

Because the Khan is a sea skimming missile, it will approach the ship at a predetermined altitude, making it an easy target for a sustained area of effect weapon.

Here is a drawing; I spent about 10 seconds on, which illustrates what I am talking about (albeit poorly).

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r145/emperornero06/defense.jpg

Here is my plan for the next time someone shoots Khans at me at in a PMT war...

Upon detecting the ICBM launch, I turn my ships to fact the incoming missiles in order to present the smallest target profile possible. Traveling at Mach 11.8, the Khans will have a hard time making the course corrections needed to hit a vastly smaller target than the broadside.

Then I have microwave directed energy weapons (http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/journal_homemad.html) mounted on the fronts of my ships. They cover a wide area with powerful microwaves, which will fry the Khans' electronics. Even if the Khans' electronics are hardened, its fuel explodes.

Because the Khan is a sea skimming missile, it will approach the ship at a predetermined altitude, making it an easy target for a sustained area of effect weapon.

Here is a drawing; I spent about 10 seconds on, which illustrates what I am talking about (albeit poorly).

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r145/emperornero06/defense.jpg

DEW's are awesome!!! I had a bunch on the coast of Saan Gali and they were pretty much the only things (along with the THEL's) keeping the enemy from launching a land attack, me <3 wub the DEW.

They are pretty sweet. They have so many uses...

Wow, it was only luck that helped me reveal the comment underneath that.
I'm surprised I never thought of this.
:)

Lucky you
I used this trick when training TWPS and when I was trying to kill Griffy
Please don't give it away, I plan upon using that trick to mess with some newbies...
It also hides links (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=503327)
:)

Look at the Pacific War, when one battle, midway, ended the war for a nation, then yeah, carriers are a huge investment, but there is no better ships out there.

How many thermaly-guided missiles did the Japanese have to defend themselves, as compared to your modern, NationStates fleet?

It's much harder to fight off a few hundred ton chunk of metal flying at you, in my opinion.

The carrier age has come, and has passed, just as did the age of the battleship, and the balance is restored.

Open Message to Corporate Governments

The Denomination of Strategy regrets that, with the loss of air bases in Urcea, Operation Archer is being put on hold.

Unfortunately with tensions regarding ViZion growing on the home front and a ViZionian attack becoming an ever-greater possibility, the Denomination will not be replacing Operation Archer with any similarly large-scale operation in the near future.

This should not be regarded as an abandonment; New Manth will continue to support its allies through trade, and the Department of Commerce has authorized increased exports of basic manufacturing materials, foodstuffs, and fuel in order to shore up Corporate economies on the home front and permit a greater commitment to the war effort. We regret that the security situation at home no longer permits us to participate in this conflict. Should the situation with ViZion improve, the Denomination will eagerly rejoin its allies.

Regards.

[Blackhelm, Wagdog, TG]

Can someone either telegram me the link to the peace treaty or put a link here? I would like to take a look at it.

Peace treaty?!

I missed something... Me want see.

Personally, I believe long-range bombers will come back. Soon we'll all be role-playing supersonic bombers flying all the way around the world in one go with rotary cruise-missile launchers in their bomb bays. And Hurtfull thoughts, I'd never dream of giving it away. Though it's blatently obvious if someone tries to quote you.

Personally, I believe long-range bombers will come back. Soon we'll all be role-playing supersonic bombers flying all the way around the world in one go with rotary cruise-missile launchers in their bomb bays.

I already do that. So does everybody that knows anything about naval warfare.

Which is harder, protecting a battleship against missile and aircraft, or protecting a carrier?

I'm going to go with carrier.

For everyone still in the dark, this is the treaty BC agreed to concerning the CA and UFAN. And mainly Kampfers but whatever. *sigh*

TO: The Corporate Alliance
FROM: Kampfers
SUBJECT: UFAN's Withdrawl

These are the terms that UFAN brings before you. Some are negotiable, some are not.

1) All UFAN nations and territories will go untouched in the war. This includes the nation of Kampfers.

2) The Corporate Alliance will reimburse UFAN the sum of 15 trillion dollars, 8 trillion of which will go to Kampfers. The rest will be divided among UFAN members involved.

3) UFAN will declare a state of peace between the two alliances and will not sanction further action against the Corporate Alliance. However, individual nations may pursue their conquests, though not with UFAN backing.

4) Kampfers will be allowed to remain wholly in the conflict as they are a member of the New Prussian Empire, but even though they fight against the Corporate Alliance, their land will still go untouched.
^^^^LAME^^^^
5) The Corporate Alliance will condemn the use of nuclear warheads, even those of the tactical size, by any and all member states, and promises to accept the consequences should this be violated.

Once again, some terms are negotiable, and some are not. How does this sound?

Sincerely,
Fuhrer Richtoff

OOC: This is really for BC only, but ya'll are free to comment on it.

my apologies for posting within your thread but I was under the impression the money article had been dropped :)

I already do that. So does everybody that knows anything about naval warfare.

Which is harder, protecting a battleship against missile and aircraft, or protecting a carrier?

I'm going to go with carrier.

You misunderstand me. I mean replacing fleets and carriers which are limited by the sea and infinitely harder to protect for endless fields of supersonic bomber wings.

A wing of supersonic bombers that can deliver the same amount of firepower in half the time and at 9/10 the cost of any fleet is the future my friend.

my apologies for posting within your thread but I was under the impression the money article had been dropped :)

That's just a quote of Kampfers original post in here, any changes are unbeknownst to me, so i'll take your word.

But strategic bombers cannot project power in a traditional way.

That's just a quote of Kampfers original post in here, any changes are unbeknownst to me, so i'll take your word.

Well, BC signed it as it was there, and never asked for any changes, so in my opinion the money is still on.

Naval Bombers are great ways to attrit the enemies fleets, slow down his movement and supplement normal strikes but you can't win a naval war with them alone. Carriers are absolutely neccessary.

How many thermaly-guided missiles did the Japanese have to defend themselves, as compared to your modern, NationStates fleet?

It's much harder to fight off a few hundred ton chunk of metal flying at you, in my opinion.

Except of course that battleships don't fling shells that are hundreds of tons. If we take the shells from Schwerer Gustav and Dora as being representative of NS 30" battleship guns, and assuming the info on Wikipedia is accurate, then the shells are 4.8 tonnes.

Even a few hundred ton chunk of metal can be dispatched easily enough presuming one is willing to use subkiloton nuclear bursts to hit the shell.

This is in addition to the fact that:
A. Large caliber shells are very short ranged.
B. Large caliber shells will either completely miss their target due to the inherent inaccuracy of such shells at distance and the ability of targets to maneuver or, if guidance systems are built in, they are as expensive or more than guided missiles as well as being subject to the same soft-kill methods.

The range limitation is a very important one. An old legacy A-6A Intruder can carry 5 2000# AP bombs over 800 nautical miles, or three 1100 nautical miles along with a pair of drop tanks. That's a very large amount of room that the battleship has to cross, all the while enjoying no real advantage in speed to try and run down the carrier.


Personally, I believe long-range bombers will come back.

When exactly did they ever go away?


Soon we'll all be role-playing supersonic bombers flying all the way around the world in one go with rotary cruise-missile launchers in their bomb bays.

Uh, no. The size requirement is going to be huge.

Personally, I believe long-range bombers will come back.

When exactly did they ever go away?

Soon we'll all be role-playing supersonic bombers flying all the way around the world in one go with rotary cruise-missile launchers in their bomb bays.

Uh, no. The size requirement is going to be huge.

They havn't vanished, but the amount used has dropped off with the introduction of carriers and fighter-bombers which are more impressive to some people. But as demonstrated here we are heading into the end of that era, something is going to need to fill the gap.

Technology will only improve bombers range, size and payload.

They havn't vanished, but the amount used has dropped off with the introduction of carriers and fighter-bombers which are more impressive to some people.

Given that carriers and fighter bombers pre-exist the long-ranged bomber, I'm not sure how you plan on backing up that statement of yours.


Technology will only improve bombers range, size and payload.

It would necessitate orders of magnitude decrease in fuel consumption in order to build a supersonic bomber that can carry a sizable payload across the world without in flight refueling and without prohibitive size.

I think what he means is that with the fall of the USSR and the decrease in size of AV-MF the naval bomber has sort of taken a further back seat.

/is Toops

Check it out...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535091

Take from this what you will but iffen it hits hard then the CA could be facing down a weaker NPE, possiblity but I'm not gonna jinx it.

See, there's the real strength of the CA - we are one of the best organized alliances, and we tend to endure until our enemies have fallen apart. That's how we beat the GASN - we endured, even through the times when it seemed like we were going to lose. We kept together, stayed organized, and then they fell apart.

We can and will repeat that victory here and now against the NPE!

Has Leaf forgotten about the invasion?

Has Leaf forgotten about the invasion?

Maybe. He hasn't been on in a long time, has he? I wonder if something in RL is interfering...

Has Leaf forgotten about the invasion?

I was trying to invade you but you seem to have forgotten!

I was trying to invade you but you seem to have forgotten!

Ah, you're back. I wonder if you'll process my order from your storefront now, or if you will not, since we're sort of on opposite sides from each other at this point.

Ah, you're back. I wonder if you'll process my order from your storefront now, or if you will not, since we're sort of on opposite sides from each other at this point.

What order? My email never got an order from you.

Except of course that battleships don't fling shells that are hundreds of tons. If we take the shells from Schwerer Gustav and Dora as being representative of NS 30" battleship guns, and assuming the info on Wikipedia is accurate, then the shells are 4.8 tonnes.

Even a few hundred ton chunk of metal can be dispatched easily enough presuming one is willing to use subkiloton nuclear bursts to hit the shell.

This is in addition to the fact that:
A. Large caliber shells are very short ranged.
B. Large caliber shells will either completely miss their target due to the inherent inaccuracy of such shells at distance and the ability of targets to maneuver or, if guidance systems are built in, they are as expensive or more than guided missiles as well as being subject to the same soft-kill methods.

The range limitation is a very important one. An old legacy A-6A Intruder can carry 5 2000# AP bombs over 800 nautical miles, or three 1100 nautical miles along with a pair of drop tanks. That's a very large amount of room that the battleship has to cross, all the while enjoying no real advantage in speed to try and run down the carrier.

Hundreds of tons is obviously hyperbole, but the effect is the same. Thirty inch guns are perfectly capable of propelling a ten or eleven ton shell upwards of eighty-five miles, and those few ninety tons missing would mean little if it ever landed a hit on nearly any ship.

If the carrier flees, it is required that missiles or allied planes bring it to a halt. If that works, and a carrier-only fleet is stopped, there is nothing to stop the battleship from wreaking havoc. Both carriers and battleships are required, unless neither party uses one or the other...

However, there is a third class of capital ship, I believe, could supersede both. The arsenal ship, carrying thousands of missiles, can unload more firepower than either a battleship or a carrier in any single strike. It has greater range than a battleship, and cruise missiles, despite their speed (or lack of), are effective and longer-ranged than most aircraft. Used in waves, they will effect some casualties.

I have only ever used an arsenal ship supporting carriers and battleships, but I believe it could do the work on it's own, in RL-practice (where few navies have the missile-defense capabilities of a rudimentary NS fleet) even more so than in NS-roleplay-war.

What order? My email never got an order from you.

I just ordered it from your storefront, not via e-mail - just via posting my order.

See, there's the real strength of the CA - we are one of the best organized alliances, and we tend to endure until our enemies have fallen apart. That's how we beat the GASN - we endured, even through the times when it seemed like we were going to lose. We kept together, stayed organized, and then they fell apart.

We can and will repeat that victory here and now against the NPE!

I could go on and on about the irony of that statement...

I would acredit CA's longevity to how loosely controled it is around a single nation *BC*.

GASN attempted a direct democracy, and was prone to get bogged down in petty squabbles, especially when differing ideologies and finger pointing started getting in the way.

ADAN is attempting to shift away from both, with a republic based leadership, and to keep the roster accurate by purging inactive members on a regular basis (making a simple ejection no big deal, although groups may get banned).

Not sure how NPE works.

Simply, in the CA, BC gives an order, and then hopes some nations follow through.
(usually 2 or 5 out of 50 members)

In GASN, it went up to a lengthy vote that took about an IC week and most likely was philibustered to death.
Resaulting in about 3 nations getting fed up and fighting without GASN approval, per conflict.

ADAN is still a work in progress, but the goal is 100% readiness at all times.
With 50% as a benchmark

I could go on and on about the irony of that statement...

I would acredit CA's longevity to how loosely controled it is around a single nation *BC*.

GASN attempted a direct democracy, and was prone to get bogged down in petty squabbles, especially when differing ideologies and finger pointing started getting in the way.

ADAN is attempting to shift away from both, with a republic based leadership, and to keep the roster accurate by purging inactive members on a regular basis (making a simple ejection no big deal, although groups may get banned).

Not sure how NPE works.

Simply, in the CA, BC gives an order, and then hopes some nations follow through.
(usually 2 or 5 out of 50 members)

In GASN, it went up to a lengthy vote that took about an IC week and most likely was philibustered to death.
Resaulting in about 3 nations getting fed up and fighting without GASN approval, per conflict.

ADAN is still a work in progress, but the goal is 100% readiness at all times.
With 50% as a benchmark

/bathes in the fact that he belongs to no alliance.../

The Bathist Conglomerate of Fintlewoodle, in being a premier industrial power, and having a Gross Product, yearly, totaling more than two-hundred and thirteen trillion Universal Standard Dollars, would like to request official membership in the Corporate Alliance, the premier capitalist organization in the international world.

Networking is ever a part of a prosperous business strategy.

Our Board of Directors will be awaiting your response.

*twidles thumbs*

I was trying to invade you but you seem to have forgotten!

I have posted, man.

Hundreds of tons is obviously hyperbole, but the effect is the same. Thirty inch guns are perfectly capable of propelling a ten or eleven ton shell upwards of eighty-five miles, and those few ninety tons missing would mean little if it ever landed a hit on nearly any ship.

The problem is getting a hit on the ship in the first place. Unless you're within ~40,000 yards, you require aerial spotting and similar fun stuff. Not to mention the necessity of crossing 900+ miles of sea while attack planes do their best to sink you.


If the carrier flees, it is required that missiles or allied planes bring it to a halt. If that works, and a carrier-only fleet is stopped, there is nothing to stop the battleship from wreaking havoc.

If a carrier only fleet is stopped, it's been sunk. At which point the battleship is superflous.


Both carriers and battleships are required, unless neither party uses one or the other...

Battleships haven't been needed since night attack carrier planes debuted. See Battle of the Sibuyan Sea (http://www.combinedfleet.com/btl_sib.htm)


However, there is a third class of capital ship, I believe, could supersede both. The arsenal ship, carrying thousands of missiles, can unload more firepower than either a battleship or a carrier in any single strike.

Which is entirely meaningless unless you're simply hitting fixed shore installations. Recon is needed to fix a mobile enemy's location, which requires aerial assets, and a continued presence (if your missiles don't go to where the enemy fleet has moved, you're completely SOL). Furthermore, while there is more firepower in a single pulse, there is less firepower overall since that arsenal ship must then return to port to replenish.


It has greater range than a battleship, and cruise missiles, despite their speed (or lack of), are effective and longer-ranged than most aircraft.

No, they aren't actually.

Used in waves, they will effect some casualties.


I have only ever used an arsenal ship supporting carriers and battleships, but I believe it could do the work on it's own, in RL-practice (where few navies have the missile-defense capabilities of a rudimentary NS fleet) even more so than in NS-roleplay-war.

To put it simply, no. Go ask it over on the warships1.com forums if you want a bunch of naval experts to explain more than I have.

*twidles thumbs*

Sit tight. You can post in here for now unless BC sees fit to kick you, though i'm sure there is no reason for him to do that.

Hurtful Thoughts is right. I was about to post the same thing, if not a bit more pro-CA.

The CA's strength lies in the fact that we have a strong leader that has nations loyal to him that he can still listen too and take advice from. The CA is, in my opinion, a tightnit group with strong alleigence to BC, and that seems to work very well for us.

This thing with TPF and Wanderjar though, it has potential.
Fingers crossed for an NPE meltdown!

Fintlewoodle, you are in, and you have a TG.

The CA's strenght is that it does not behave like an alliance, but rather a group of nations sharing a common goal.

My fleet in Barokin is pulling out of the engagment with Shakal. My land and air forces will stay and offered continued support to the Maldorian fleet, but the actual DT ships are almost completely decimated, so i'm gonna cut my loses and save them for when landing ships arrive, if it ever gets to that.

My fleet in Barokin is pulling out of the engagment with Shakal. My land and air forces will stay and offered continued support to the Maldorian fleet, but the actual DT ships are almost completely decimated, so i'm gonna cut my loses and save them for when landing ships arrive, if it ever gets to that.

You have a TG.

You have a TG.

I want a TG... :'(


Anyways, DT, I'll do my best to stop Shakal and a few others.

Well, Rosdivan, you had some good points there. However, while your explenation was well reasoned, I feel you might have overlooked a few of the less obvious tricks to use in conjunction with the Arsenal Ship tactics suggested by Emperor Pudu.

What I was thinking of was how, with modern technology, a lot of work previously done by scout planes and so on can now be done with satelites - modern spy satelites can read liscence plate numbers, so they can definitely keep track of enemy fleet movements. Combine that with GPS technology and some orbital targeting assistance, and you can send cruise missiles at targets you've not only never seen, but also have never sent planes to see.

Additionally, an Arsenal-type ship would not necessarily deploy all of its missiles in one go - it could carry additional missiles, and act as something which could be described as an all-missile battleship. That comparison is, of course, imperfect, but it actually conveys a pretty good idea of the role an arsenal ship would perform. It would fire off huge numbers of missiles from a great range away, hitting the enemy fleet with satelite assistance. Which is only in the vaguest way similar to how an old-style battleship would pound the enemy with its big guns, but not entierly different. Also, even when an Arsenal Ship had expended all the missiles it was carrying, it would not necessarily need to return to a port to rearm - it could easily be accompanied by supply ships carrying additional missiles, just as modern fleets are accompanied by all sorts of supply ships, carrying spare parts, fuel and so on.

Well, that's what I wanted to mention. I do agree that traditional battleships are useless or close to it in the modern era, a point you made very well, and I would like to say that I appreciate your historical reference.

Well, Rosdivan, you had some good points there. However, while your explenation was well reasoned, I feel you might have overlooked a few of the less obvious tricks to use in conjunction with the Arsenal Ship tactics suggested by Emperor Pudu.

What I was thinking of was how, with modern technology, a lot of work previously done by scout planes and so on can now be done with satelites - modern spy satelites can read liscence plate numbers, so they can definitely keep track of enemy fleet movements.

And they can be avoided, deceived, jammed, or shot down. NORPAC 82 is always informative (http://navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.htm)


Combine that with GPS technology and some orbital targeting assistance, and you can send cruise missiles at targets you've not only never seen, but also have never sent planes to see.

You're highly likely to never hit anything either if the target is mobile. There's actually a whole host of unpleasantness involved in over the horizon targeting.


Which is only in the vaguest way similar to how an old-style battleship would pound the enemy with its big guns, but not entierly different. Also, even when an Arsenal Ship had expended all the missiles it was carrying, it would not necessarily need to return to a port to rearm - it could easily be accompanied by supply ships carrying additional missiles, just as modern fleets are accompanied by all sorts of supply ships, carrying spare parts, fuel and so on.

Reloading VLS cells is a very time consuming process. Between the sheer number of cells and the "fun" of doing so on other than perfect seas, it's best to reload an arsenal ship at port.

Anyways, DT, I'll do my best to stop Shakal and a few others.

I'm doing my best to help out. I just took out another 20 ships, and my last wave of Skippers is aimed at the big guns.

BC, so should i go ahead with my assignment without any support? I dont care that much, but he is a whole lot larger than me, you know?

/bathes in the fact that he belongs to no alliance.../

x2

BC, so should i go ahead with my assignment without any support? I dont care that much, but he is a whole lot larger than me, you know?

Start the thread, assistance will come.

Start the thread, assistance will come.

Alright.

Was the video posted?

Well, a lot of nations have made military storefronts, with tanks and aircraft carriers and all that... but as far as I know, no one has bothered making an industrial storefront, one from which industrial equippment, steel, chemicals and so on can be purchased. I'm right now working on such a storefront - here is a link to a thread where I'm doing some work for the possibility of, in the future, a proper storefront thread.

Link:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535280&highlight=undershi

I hope some people are interested?

It has been brought to my attntion, that Maladorians, are being invaded.

Also, I have decided to inform you two things.

The link:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535583

And that ADAN reacted faster.

You may want to help defend your ally.

Oh, ADAN is friendly. Why didn't anyone tell me, I was under the impression we were completely on our own.

BC, you have a telegram from me. If you would be so kind...

It has been brought to my attntion, that Maladorians, are being invaded.

Also, I have decided to inform you two things.

The link:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535583

And that ADAN reacted faster.

You may want to help defend your ally.

Its almost like we are embroiled in a huge war.

And I've been helping Maldorians from the start. And I can spell their name right.

Just to let you guys know, the Greater Prussian Empire has decided to intervene on behalf of the New Prussian Empire and has made their opening move (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=535638).

Would "thousands of missiles" floating for "several years" in space really go unnoticed? I find that extremly unlikely, especially with the amount of satellites orbiting NS earth.

well he could mean orbital weapons platforms..I have quite a few up there ASAT missiles and ASAT missile defense systems to protect my satellite networks...I also have multiple networks to make it even more difficult to knock out my communications etc etc

If that is what he meant to say, he did it very poorly.

Space

Thousands of missiles floated in space, serenely content in their orbits. They had been launched, some of them a number of years before, chirped that they had been successfully deployed, and then simply waited. Now, Rosdivani satellites began broadcasting data with the codes necessary for their activation. They paused, evaluated the codes and coordinates, and chirped back.

From computerese, it translated roughly as "Oh Joy! Oh Rapture!"

Small puffs jetted off, turning the missiles in their appropriate directions, before their main rocket motor fired and they headed to their rendezvous with a Corporate satellite.

I read the post when it first came up...I was just giving my suggestion as to what he probably meant...

Would "thousands of missiles" floating for "several years" in space really go unnoticed? I find that extremly unlikely, especially with the amount of satellites orbiting NS earth.

I never said that they were unnoticed, now did I? I simply said that they had been launched, put in orbit, and had waited silently since then. Additionally, only some had been up there for several years. Most had not.

At the end of your post you also mentioned your characer watching reports come in of destroyed targets.

Just for OOC information purposes, each of my orbital ASATs is a bit bigger than a Brilliant Pebbles killsat. Operation is independent of any other satellite except for targeting information.

At the end of your post you also mentioned your characer watching reports come in of destroyed targets.

No shit? I launched thousands of missiles from air and space at Corporate satellites. It'd be wankery on the highest level for not a single one of them to hit. It'd be only slightly less wanky for a majority or large minority not to hit either, given the minimal warning time given. A mention of nondescript satellites being destroyed is entirely appropriate.

You claimed the numbers would be impressively large, and there is nothing to say they won't be, but there isn't anything to say they will either. To me a statement like that seems like a way to pressure someone into posting massive casualties.

...given the minimal warning time given.

If you have thousands of missiles floating around for several years chances are there was ample warning.

You claimed the numbers would be impressively large, and there is nothing to say they won't be, but there isn't anything to say they will either.

So thousands of ASATs launched in a concerted manner by the Greater Prussian Empire in an out of the blue Pearl Harboresque attack against systems with only a few minutes of time in which to react, in an attack designed to knock down every single one of your orbital recon platforms down to and including weather satellites, and you don't think you're going to suffer an impressively large number of losses?


If you have thousands of missiles floating around for several years chances are there was ample warning.

Ample warning of what? I'm scarcely the only person with an ASAT system. The only warning given of the attack was when the rocket motors lit off.

With that many missile floating around like space junk you don't think anyone is monitoring them? I'm not saying me personally, DT has never really ventured into space as far as satelites are conscerned, anything I use is assumed piggybacked off the satellites of my allies who i'm sure will have a response for that attack that will stem their losses.

And as I said before, there's nothing to say there won't be massive losses. In fact, with the number of missiles you fired in your post, i'm almost certain there will be considerable losses, but it's not right to assume. You never know when someone has been waiting to rp a defense system that will weaken your attack and mabey even change the way people rp space warfare.

OOC: Rosdivans, I don't expect you will get much of a response to your thread. You basically volunteered around 40 nations to participate in your thread without consulting anyone. Also, your thread violates some closed wars, OOC agreements, and IC agreements.

I suggest you pick a few nations, contact them, and arrange a fight. Attempting a 40 vs. 3 space assets battle won't work out. Even if we could get all our guys to take an interest in your thread, we would generate so many posts you couldn't keep up.

The only way I can see this going down is if one person (like BC) roleplayed our joint assets.

What rules does it violate exactly, Nero?

With that many missile floating around like space junk you don't think anyone is monitoring them?

Did I ever say that no one would be monitoring them? No. In fact, I make the implicit assumption that they are monitored and people notice their movement.


OOC: Rosdivans, I don't expect you will get much of a response to your thread. You basically volunteered around 40 nations to participate in your thread without consulting anyone. Also, your thread violates some closed wars, OOC agreements, and IC agreements.

That's nice. If you hadn't noticed, New Prussian Empire asked the Greater Prussian Empire to intervene. We took them up on the offer. This was our opening move. Now, if you want to consider this to occur after some of the closed threads due to fluid time, feel free.


The only way I can see this going down is if one person (like BC) roleplayed our joint assets.

I've no problem with that.

Congrats, you've turned what are thousands of satellites, into literally tens of millions of debris, moving at 25,000 mph or faster.

You've polluted space in the highest regard and probably will have to deal with a cloud of debris circling earth at punishing speeds.

And I mean everything, right down the smallest nut is a deadly object at that speed and can easily disable a satellite, or puncture a hard or inflatable space station.

Well it might be interesting to watch a war fought without satellites. People would actually have to rp looking for each other's navies for a change :p

Well it might be interesting to watch a war fought without satellites. People would actually have to rp looking for each other's navies for a change :p

Frankly there is another problem.

All these little things make satellite recon in off weather conditions nearly impossible.

Hundreds of RADAR, and Thermal Targets. LIDAR would be scattered by the tons of microdust produced by firstly the rocket exhaust from missiles, to just vaporized metal.

Even clear weather space photography could have a giant chunk of metal in the middle of the frame. Essentially a tiny half screw in the way ruins a highly magnified picture.

Congrats, you've turned what are thousands of satellites, into literally tens of millions of debris, moving at 25,000 mph or faster.

You've polluted space in the highest regard and probably will have to deal with a cloud of debris circling earth at punishing speeds.

And rapidly re-entering debris, most of it gone within a few months or years (depending on the solar fluxes).


And I mean everything, right down the smallest nut is a deadly object at that speed and can easily disable a satellite, or puncture a hard or inflatable space station.

Not quite. There is armoring that can be down.


Frankly there is another problem.

All these little things make satellite recon in off weather conditions nearly impossible.

Hundreds of RADAR, and Thermal Targets.

Which you can instruct your satellites to ignore. Of course, this isn't a problem for those of us like me who aren't dependent on spaced based surveillance means in the first place.

All I can see here is that the Corporate Alliance is OOCly afraid of us getting involved, so they're deliberately reading things into Ros's post that aren't there so as to not have to fight.

Ros never said that they were there entirely un-noticed. Not once.

Also, there is nothing wrong in stating that his character watched the fireworks, since, as was stated previously, there will be substantial casualties. He never once said the number of casualties, just that there would be enough to feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Plus, my stuff.

And Leafanistan, NS Earth is wankery in itself. It would be physically impossible to have an actual-sized earth hold all of the nations and people that are on NS. Look at Derscon: 8.314 billion people, and that's small compared to a lot of people who still RP here. The current RL earth's population is six billion some. The RP'd Dersconi mainland (this is JUST DERSCON, mind you, not the Greater Prussian supercontinent) is about the size of the Russian Empire, at its height. And this is just the mainland. (Mind you, I don't claim these actual lands, this is just how big it is. Also, a lot of Derscon is tundra, as well, like Russia). The entire Greater Prussian supercontinent (plus islands) is about the size of all of the Americas combined.

And we are but a small group of nations.

So no, really, there wouldn't be nearly as massive of a debris problem as you state.

And Leafanistan, NS Earth is wankery in itself. It would be physically impossible to have an actual-sized earth hold all of the nations and people that are on NS. Look at Derscon: 8.314 billion people, and that's small compared to a lot of people who still RP here. The current RL earth's population is six billion some. The RP'd Dersconi mainland (this is JUST DERSCON, mind you, not the Greater Prussian supercontinent) is about the size of the Russian Empire, at its height. And this is just the mainland. (Mind you, I don't claim these actual lands, this is just how big it is. Also, a lot of Derscon is tundra, as well, like Russia). The entire Greater Prussian supercontinent (plus islands) is about the size of all of the Americas combined.

And we are but a small group of nations.

So no, really, there wouldn't be nearly as massive of a debris problem as you state.

Yeah, look at haven. It alone is bigger than RL earth.

Question:

Did the attack happen or not?

What was the impact?

It was simply too large an attack for NOTHING to have happened.

We sorta need a ruling on this because it does make a difference.

If CA Sats aren't able to see what is going on, that uncertiantly alone will make a huge impact on what the players are doing.

Basically, I'm just going to point this out - the CA has its own space-based and land-based anti-satelite weaponry. If this kind of opperation goes down, automated systems that would be in place unless the government in concern was entierly staffed by terminal idiots would occur. The result? Scorched space - CA, NPE and GPE all lose their orbital assets. It seems like that would be a fair exchange. (And it would probably work out like that unless there were seriously more than twice as many people going up against the CA than there were in the CA).

Well?

Basically, I'm just going to point this out - the CA has its own space-based and land-based anti-satelite weaponry. If this kind of opperation goes down, automated systems that would be in place unless the government in concern was entierly staffed by terminal idiots would occur. The result? Scorched space - CA, NPE and GPE all lose their orbital assets. It seems like that would be a fair exchange. (And it would probably work out like that unless there were seriously more than twice as many people going up against the CA than there were in the CA).

Well?

Well, its kind of turned into that...

Basically, I'm just going to point this out - the CA has its own space-based and land-based anti-satelite weaponry. If this kind of opperation goes down, automated systems that would be in place unless the government in concern was entierly staffed by terminal idiots would occur. The result? Scorched space - CA, NPE and GPE all lose their orbital assets. It seems like that would be a fair exchange. (And it would probably work out like that unless there were seriously more than twice as many people going up against the CA than there were in the CA).

Well?

OOC:
More than 70% of the CA Membership isn't even active though. So a well prepared group could just come in and swoop through the active membership of the CA easily and cause the groups collapse while that 70% just sat back and watched.

OOC:
More than 70% of the CA Membership isn't even active though. So a well prepared group could just come in and swoop through the active membership of the CA easily and cause the groups collapse while that 70% just sat back and watched.

Well, that might be bad RP-ing - it hardly seems fair to do something like that. That arguement could be carried over to the extent of "I glassed his country, but he wasn't online for three or four days, so he didn't retaliate."

Or at least that's how it seems to me.

To be honest, it is unlikely a retaliatory attack would be as successful against the GPE, as because we launched the attack, we are anticipating a counter-attack. That and the fact we probably have a lot more shit than you do, and with most of your space assets gone already, you wouldn't be able to make much of a hit, and we'd have better time to respond, since we'd be anticipating some sort of a counter-attack.

Not to say we wouldn't lose satellites in an attack -- not by a long shot. But, like China, we always have MOAR WAVEZ! :p

Well, that might be bad RP-ing - it hardly seems fair to do something like that. That arguement could be carried over to the extent of "I glassed his country, but he wasn't online for three or four days, so he didn't retaliate."

Or at least that's how it seems to me.

OOC:
It's not bad RPing. Most people on NationStates join alliances just to have them in their signiture and nothing else. Which is why most alliances are doing background checks on nations wishing to join their alliance to see if they are active on the NationStates Forums here. If they arn't active then it's most likely that they will be rejected from joining said alliance. It's just how things are on NationStates, and there's nothign you, nor anyone else can do, to change that.

To be honest, it is unlikely a retaliatory attack would be as successful against the GPE, as because we launched the attack, we are anticipating a counter-attack. That and the fact we probably have a lot more shit than you do, and with most of your space assets gone already, you wouldn't be able to make much of a hit, and we'd have better time to respond, since we'd be anticipating some sort of a counter-attack.

Not to say we wouldn't lose satellites in an attack -- not by a long shot. But, like China, we always have MOAR WAVEZ! :p

In waring times like these i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we would be expecting an attack in the first place, just as you would expect the counter. So there is a good chance those satellites that you targeted were poised to strike your satellites the moment anything happened, they could easily let off a counter before your missiles hit.

OOC:
It's not bad RPing. Most people on NationStates join alliances just to have them in their signiture and nothing else. Which is why most alliances are doing background checks on nations wishing to join their alliance to see if they are active on the NationStates Forums here. If they arn't active then it's most likely that they will be rejected from joining said alliance. It's just how things are on NationStates, and there's nothign you, nor anyone else can do, to change that.

Frankly, wars on the forums never encompas nations that aren't active anyways, so none of it changes anything. Now, and in they past, enemies have only ever targeted active nations, so in reality you've already put your theory into action.

DT: What reason would you have for targeting their satellites? Did they openly declare war before attacking? :O

DT: What reason would you have for targeting their satellites? Did they openly declare war before attacking? :O

I never said I personally would be doing anything, other members of the CA however, those that have an intrest in their numerous space assets might though.

And an attack of this magnitude would be construed as an act of war by anyone, including you i'm sure.

I never said I personally would be doing anything, other members of the CA however, those that have an intrest in their numerous space assets might though.

And an attack of this magnitude would be construed as an act of war by anyone, including you i'm sure.

Yes. His point is that before this, they had not declared war and you had no way to know they would. Unless you break SIC/OOC barriers, and well, you wouldnt do that would you? As such, you would be targeting NPE satellites and the like, not the GPE satellites.

But still one would hope the nations would give thought to the GPE helping the NPE, they being related so, and would subsequently turn a spare eye at them and their spaceborn fileds of weaponry.

But still one would hope the nations would give thought to the GPE helping the NPE, they being related so, and would subsequently turn a spare eye at them and their spaceborn fileds of weaponry.

Here's what I can come up with that's not secret IC

Blacklisting CA nations for arms export
Several 'massive military mobilizations'
Hostile remarks towards the CA
...and of course, the most important one is that they're a major alliance based on Prussians being awesome.

Here's what I can come up with that's not secret IC

Blacklisting CA nations for arms export
Several 'massive military mobilizations'
Hostile remarks towards the CA
...and of course, the most important one is that they're a major alliance based on Prussians being awesome.

Well, I'd think that would be enough to ensure that we'd be prepared to deal with them. Heck, during the Cold War, Russia had a whole lot of nukes pointed at China for no reason other than that if the US and the USSR were going to tear each other apart, they wanted to make sure China got knocked down too so that it wouldn't be left in a position to become the next super-power.

I think the CA is at least as brutal and pragmatic as the USSR ever was, so we'd almost certainly have our missiles/EMPs/doomzey-niss-ness aimed at your space-born assets, not to mention your stuff on the ground, like ships and air bases and cities.

In warring times like these i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we would be expecting an attack in the first place, just as you would expect the counter. So there is a good chance those satellites that you targeted were poised to strike your satellites the moment anything happened, they could easily let off a counter before your missiles hit.

They would be targeting NPE satellites, yes, but it is highly unlikely that the CA would have the ability to target all of the NPE and the GPE satellites. Also, since the GPE actually didn't do anything until this Space-based Pearl Harbour, their attention would be more focused on the NPE satellites, which aren't participating.

But still one would hope the nations would give thought to the GPE helping the NPE, they being related so, and would subsequently turn a spare eye at them and their spaceborn fileds of weaponry.

Actually, until now, the GPE and the NPE had absolutely zero IC contact with each other. Granted, not to say there wouldn't be reasonable suspicion of our involvement, but not enough to warrent a full-scale targeting of our strategic assets, as you claim (since that would mean taking your eyes off the NPE, to a point)



What is still irritating is that all of this is generally irrelevant, considering the attack happened, and I have not seen one response.

Well, I'd think that would be enough to ensure that we'd be prepared to deal with them. Heck, during the Cold War, Russia had a whole lot of nukes pointed at China for no reason other than that if the US and the USSR were going to tear each other apart, they wanted to make sure China got knocked down too so that it wouldn't be left in a position to become the next super-power.

I think the CA is at least as brutal and pragmatic as the USSR ever was, so we'd almost certainly have our missiles/EMPs/doomzey-niss-ness aimed at your space-born assets, not to mention your stuff on the ground, like ships and air bases and cities.

This is simply not practical in the NS world, with the amount of alliances that doctrinally hate each other.

This is simply not practical in the NS world, with the amount of alliances that doctrinally hate each other.

True, but not all alliances love the New Prussian Empire. Greater Prussia and the NPE are both Prussian, thus they would most likely back each other up...

This is simply not practical in the NS world, with the amount of alliances that doctrinally hate each other.

Actually, with modern computers you could have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of possible targets inputted for each missile, with automated responses, so that even without a single human input they could respond to easily a thousand different scenarios...

And in the case of most of the nations in the CA, we'd be paranoid enough to have those thousands of plans put in, plus probably a bunker somewhere with a comand team ready and trained for any of those plans.

Dealing with thousands of possible attackers is easier with MT than you seem to think.

Of course, most of us RP at least early PMT, so our computers should be even better.

Just a point.

Actually, with modern computers you could have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of possible targets inputted for each missile, with automated responses, so that even without a single human input they could respond to easily a thousand different scenarios...

And in the case of most of the nations in the CA, we'd be paranoid enough to have those thousands of plans put in, plus probably a bunker somewhere with a comand team ready and trained for any of those plans.

Dealing with thousands of possible attackers is easier with MT than you seem to think.

Of course, most of us RP at least early PMT, so our computers should be even better.

Just a point.

True, true, fair enough, I suppose I'm not giving you guys (or myself) enough credit (I myself have shitloads upon shitloads of spacedy shoop-ness).

And for this, I'm RPing PMT.

You shouldn't have to edit anything it's all legitimit, but when someone does post (and by someone I mean someone who has space assets worth defending) just don't be surprised if they want to counter it and retaliate.

Did anyone post the video?

You shouldn't have to edit anything it's all legitimit, but when someone does post (and by someone I mean someone who has space assets worth defending) just don't be surprised if they want to counter it and retaliate.

I'm not expecting to not be attacked. I'm just saying it wouldn't be MAD.

And really, we were attacking ALL of your satellites -- weapons, communications, spy, etc -- all of it. I'm assuming all CA nations have satellite technology (this is AT THE EARLIEST 2007, after all, not 1952 :p), so meh.

Okidoodle guys, sorry I havn't really been involved in the CA NPE conflict (except at the start) but I'm focusing more on getting good at Drawing right now, so what i'ma be doing is not quitting the CA but instead quitting the CA/NPE conflict (unless there's somewhere that I am needed, I'm not gonna pull a Crystal Mountains) and going more Indy in my threads, so whilst I'm not gonna ban any of you guys from joining my threads just don't bring the war with you.

I have no idea why but that whole last paragraph seems kinda arrogant, hmmm, sorry if its :s

Okay, so I'm ready and waiting for the Tocrowkian assault on my homeland - but, apparently that won't be starting for a while now. So, anyone need a little air support or something? I can help out until he begins his invasion.

The Republic of Greston would like to join the CA, we agree to the Charter, and hope that you can put any conflict or hatred between us behind us, and that we may join the CA. thank you.

The Republic of Greston would like to join the CA, we agree to the Charter, and hope that you can put any conflict or hatred between us behind us, and that we may join the CA. thank you.

The Mandalorian Empire would endorse Greston. We have had good relations with them in the past....

Hey BC, if you're up to it, heads: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536073

Hey BC, if you're up to it, heads: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536073

If we're gonna move in, I'll support with a few stealth ships.

Ok boys, lets see some threads that need a good ol' fashioned CA ass kickin'

Ah, guys, what happened to the war with the NPE? Also, I hate to bring this up, but what about their attack on our orbital infastructure? I've been arguing with them about such an effort's likely results, and was wondering about your opinions.

I'm here for a quick message, controversial yes, but important nonetheless.

Specially Undershi, I'm interested in making a deal with him, and I can pay in land... Cazelian land.

Anyone interested?

I'm here for a quick message, controversial yes, but important nonetheless.

Specially Undershi, I'm interested in making a deal with him, and I can pay in land... Cazelian land.

Anyone interested?

Oh oh pick me! I like land!!

Well I'm trying to stay out of that thread as I'm staying out of the war in general, but I mostly agree with you Undershi. Especially since they plead 'but ns earth is way too huge' as a reason that orbital debris wouldn't be a problem, but then their missiles can reach every CA space asset within a few minutes?

I would think it would have to be either one or the other; i.e. either they have to move massive amounts of stuff to within close range of CA property (thus being noticed, as every space agency worth its salt keeps track of pretty much every object orbiting the planet, and certainly every weapon), or else their attack should take much longer to reach CA stuff.

Well currently we are awaiting responses on a whole list of threads. With school starting and such its been slow.

Who would be interested in peace?

I'm here for a quick message, controversial yes, but important nonetheless.

Specially Undershi, I'm interested in making a deal with him, and I can pay in land... Cazelian land.

Anyone interested?

Well, I'm always interested in deals where I can get land - TG me with details, I guess. Although I should warn you, I'm not likely to betray the CA.

Well I'm trying to stay out of that thread as I'm staying out of the war in general, but I mostly agree with you Undershi. Especially since they plead 'but ns earth is way too huge' as a reason that orbital debris wouldn't be a problem, but then their missiles can reach every CA space asset within a few minutes?

I would think it would have to be either one or the other; i.e. either they have to move massive amounts of stuff to within close range of CA property (thus being noticed, as every space agency worth its salt keeps track of pretty much every object orbiting the planet, and certainly every weapon), or else their attack should take much longer to reach CA stuff.

Yeah, you've got it right - I'm thinking they could wipe us out in orbit, or at least get most of our stuff, since killing satelites is really quite easy. The problem is that we would get all of our own counter-attacks off, and wipe out their orbital assets, because it's fairly easy to kill satelites.

The result would be scorched space - no advantage for anyone there...

Who would be interested in peace?

Peace between the CA and the NPE? Depends on the terms, most likely - BC is going to have to have a say in this, though...

Peace between the CA and the NPE? Depends on the terms, most likely - BC is going to have to have a say in this, though...

Well Wandy and I were discussing it and as this war is going nowhere, [on either side] combined with other international incidents and school starting, we figured it might be time.

Well Wandy and I were discussing it and as this war is going nowhere, [on either side] combined with other international incidents and school starting, we figured it might be time.

Well, I'm all for peace, but you'd have to check with BC and some other key members before whether or not peace will break out will become clear.

Ah, guys, what happened to the war with the NPE? Also, I hate to bring this up, but what about their attack on our orbital infastructure? I've been arguing with them about such an effort's likely results, and was wondering about your opinions.

I'm just ignoring that thread myself because it isn't possible to play out. If it did play out, I would expect it to play out something like this...

Rosidivan's fighters and Allanea's ASAT missiles would destroy whatever satellites flying we have flying over their respective nations. The 99.8% of our satellites that remained would exchange spam with them. As radically as we outnumber them, they would lose everything they had in space over the course of a couple hours. Since this is the CA, chances are at least 1 or 2 of our nations would be unable to resist the urge to glass them once they had nothing left.

Rosidivan's fighters and Allanea's ASAT missiles would destroy whatever satellites flying we have flying over their respective nations.

And, of course, the Dersconi space assets are doing nothing? Right, especially considering the ISDG likely is only a little smaller than the combined CA space presence, PLUS toss in the GPSDI network...right.

The 99.8% of our satellites that remained would exchange spam with them. As radically as we outnumber them, they would lose everything they had in space over the course of a couple hours.

Bollocks. You may have more nations, but I assure you, Derscon alone could hold its own against several of you.

Also, as stated before, you have more nations, but we have larger assets, and seeing as the ISDG/GPSDI combined programme likely outnumbers the CA space presence, I don't see much of anything of what you describe happening.

Since this is the CA, chances are at least 1 or 2 of our nations would be unable to resist the urge to glass them once they had nothing left.

First off, the ones likely to lose everything are you guys. If we lost everything, then you surely have nothing as well, so I'm not sure what you're gonna be doing with that.

And if you're then stuck with non-space methods of deployment, you're not gonna be landing much more than a few nukes on us, and -- with Derscon alone -- I have lots of land, so a nuke won't do much to me there, since I literally can just pick up and move, and even if you nail a city, when you have 8+ billion people, a few million here or there really isn't gonna do much.

I think your main problem in understanding the situation is that the number of nations on your side does not necessarily constitute an advantage.

I also posted a revised offer of compromise in the other thread, BTW, Undershi.

Who would be interested in peace?

At what price?

Yeah, you've got it right - I'm thinking they could wipe us out in orbit, or at least get most of our stuff, since killing satelites is really quite easy. The problem is that we would get all of our own counter-attacks off, and wipe out their orbital assets, because it's fairly easy to kill satelites.

The result would be scorched space - no advantage for anyone there...

Given that we out number them, I would assume we have far more space assets than they have the capability to destroy, and as a result whole countries' assets would be spared.

Given that we out number them, I would assume we have far more space assets than they have the capability to destroy, and as a result whole countries' assets would be spared.

ASATs are much cheaper than satellites, and generally quite effective. I could see them wiping out much of what the CA has.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that striking first means their assets will automatically survive. I just don't think it's possible to get a first strike in to a degree that would really change the outcome in this sort of thing.

Just using me as an example, 99% of my ASAT capability would remain untouched since I don't keep my ASATs in space - they are air, silo or sub-launched. And even if it was in space, I don't see amuch of anything getting destroyed without being able to strike back.

Anyway, though, it would be nice to see peace made.

Well, I'm always interested in deals where I can get land - TG me with details, I guess. Although I should warn you, I'm not likely to betray the CA.

Not that I would ever ask you to do so.

But, the GUSN is gone, GASN is gone, heck, most goody-good alliances are gone.

And I must cement a good position for the Soviet Commonwealth.

Given that we out number them, I would assume we have far more space assets than they have the capability to destroy, and as a result whole countries' assets would be spared.

Yes, you do out number us. You outnumber the whole GPE, the whole NPE, and assorted members of GUSN, UFAN, and the SC. Yep, you outnumber us all right. Before you say stuff, get your facts straight.

Yes, you do out number us. You outnumber the whole GPE, the whole NPE, and assorted members of GUSN, UFAN, and the SC. Yep, you outnumber us all right. Before you say stuff, get your facts straight.

GUSN?

They are no longer a considerable force, only TNB and Leocardia remain... and they are getting counter-attacked by Maldorians.

GUSN?

They are no longer a considerable force, only TNB and Leocardia remain... and they are getting counter-attacked by Maldorians.

And me.

We should be done rolling them up soon. I don't think Leocardia is fighting anymore.

Anyway, Kampfers, only two nations were participating in the orbital attack that I counted, plus a little pocket change from Allanea. So numbers would be heavily on the CA side in that battle, which was the one under discussion.

Undershi, TG.

ASATs are much cheaper than satellites, and generally quite effective. I could see them wiping out much of what the CA has.

What I don't agree with is the assumption that striking first means their assets will automatically survive. I just don't think it's possible to get a first strike in to a degree that would really change the outcome in this sort of thing.

Just using me as an example, 99% of my ASAT capability would remain untouched since I don't keep my ASATs in space - they are air, silo or sub-launched. And even if it was in space, I don't see amuch of anything getting destroyed without being able to strike back.

OOC: Irrelevant, my Mafia can maintain its communication structure due to its reliance on civilian technology, that jamming or destruction of would cause an entangling alliances situation with large nations wondering what the fuck they did to have you shoot down a television satellite.

I don't know why more of you don't use LibNet prepaid phones for your communications capability.

Encrypted cell phones acting like walkie talkies is f'ing awesome.

Not that I would ever ask you to do so.

But, the GUSN is gone, GASN is gone, heck, most goody-good alliances are gone.

And I must cement a good position for the Soviet Commonwealth.

OOC:Invoking the Soviet name is tantamount to heresy in Leafanistani circles due to their various massacres on the Leafanistani Continent, I've been needing an IC reason to becoming a major rogue nation again.

Also, any CA nations interested in taking on Leafanistani proper?

OOC:Invoking the Soviet name is tantamount to heresy in Leafanistani circles due to their various massacres on the Leafanistani Continent, I've been needing an IC reason to becoming a major rogue nation again.


Strange, as I'm not Soviet per se, I just think the name fits =P

Strange, as I'm not Soviet per se, I just think the name fits =P

Are you a pinko commie?

If yes step on my line of I will probably invade you.

You'll have to excuse the wait, half the CA is in front of you.

Are you a pinko commie?

If yes step on my line of I will probably invade you.

You'll have to excuse the wait, half the CA is in front of you.

Nah, I'm a socialist.

All very imformative but nevertheless irrelevant.

Everyone is starting school and everything is slowing down, all we can do is call an OOC peace. It's a pity we should have to, especially when it had so much potential, but these things can't really afford to take more than a whole summer to play out.

I'm sure peace is gonna have to be sought and retained untill... it could be awhile.

All very imformative but nevertheless irrelevant.

Everyone is starting school and everything is slowing down, all we can do is call an OOC peace. It's a pity we should have to, especially when it had so much potential, but these things can't really afford to take more than a whole summer to play out.

I'm sure peace is gonna have to be sought and retained untill... it could be awhile.

We can't... TG for details.

Well, I'm all for peace at this point - I've just discovered that a medical condition I have is worsening, and I'm going in to see a cardiologist tomorrow.

That said, I've posted a reply to the anti-satelite thread. It seems to me like we're all being a little unreasonable, even me probably. I'm going to do some more research, and try to do some in-depth work too, before I can really figure out how things should truly go.

Personally, I'm ignoring their absurd space assault.

If space is too big to have an effective SDI system, how can it be small enough for them to target a good portion of the CA's space assets? They might hit, at most, 40% of all satellites.

The Grand Rebels consists of rebels from several wars that the nation has fought so we can give you our most expierienced Mercinaries. These mercs fought in wars like the Bynamar civil war, World war 3, Typro nuclear war and the Grand Rebels civil war.
Just add me to the list and I will supply you with any other weapons and soldiers I have

Personally, I'm ignoring their absurd space assault.

If space is too big to have an effective SDI system, how can it be small enough for them to target a good portion of the CA's space assets? They might hit, at most, 40% of all satellites.

Look, you had two of the brighter minds on NS just tell you that the attack was real and was feasible. Quit being such a bad sport. Let me link you to something that might help you out in your situation.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416665

There ya go. And unless ya'll change your attitudes and start RPing, I am marking this war down as a desicive victory for the Prussian Forces. Most of ya'll (if I had respect for you before) have lost it, with the exception of a few. Some of your nations are founded on godmoding. So, either RP the space strike, or you lose the war. It's that simple in my book, and I'm sure the majority of people who know what they are doing on NS would agree.

Well, I'm all for peace at this point - I've just discovered that a medical condition I have is worsening, and I'm going in to see a cardiologist tomorrow.


Oi, hope you get better soon man.

Oi, hope you get better soon man.


Thanks for the concern. See, enemies can (and should) be civil.

Look, you had two of the brighter minds on NS just tell you that the attack was real and was feasible. Quit being such a bad sport. Let me link you to something that might help you out in your situation.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416665

There ya go. And unless ya'll change your attitudes and start RPing, I am marking this war down as a desicive victory for the Prussian Forces. Most of ya'll (if I had respect for you before) have lost it, with the exception of a few. Some of your nations are founded on godmoding. So, either RP the space strike, or you lose the war. It's that simple in my book, and I'm sure the majority of people who know what they are doing on NS would agree.


Okay, I haven't done as much research on your tactics as I would like to do, but I will repeat (as I said from the begining) that I agree that your effort would be effective.

Anyways, I'm up for a big gotterdammerung invasion of Undershi - anyone interested is invited in. I'm thinking about shifting over to RPing a less extreme nation, and an invasion could be tha catalyst.

Okay, I haven't done as much research on your tactics as I would like to do, but I will repeat (as I said from the begining) that I agree that your effort would be effective.

I don't believe Kampfers was attacking you in that post, Undershi. He was directing it towards Akimonad.

Anyways, I'm up for a big gotterdammerung invasion of Undershi - anyone interested is invited in. I'm thinking about shifting over to RPing a less extreme nation, and an invasion could be the catalyst.

I'm willing to help out. ;)

I don't believe Kampfers was attacking you in that post, Undershi. He was directing it towards Akimonad.



I'm willing to help out. ;)

Alright, I guess I misunderstood.

As for the offer, sure. Undershi has 140 million people in its military, all of whom are in Undershi at this time, plus it could call up reservists, so I'd recomend bringing a friend or two.

On the other hand, there are two fairly active resistance movements in Undershi, some christian fundamentalists in Saint Rynald Province and some Maoists in Southland Province. I have a map ready - if you're seriously interested and begin a thread, then I'll post it there.

Oh, and will you agree to lenient terms OOCly before we begin?

Also, how do you feel about chemical weapons, including nerve gas?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/fahooglewitz1077/AkimonadSeal_Flat.png
Official Proclamation

The Autocratic Federated Empire of Akimonad hereby resigns its membership in the Corporate Alliance.

Good day,
Dr. Jules Hodz
Undersecretary, Akimonad

Alright, I guess I misunderstood.

As for the offer, sure. Undershi has 140 million people in its military, all of whom are in Undershi at this time, plus it could call up reservists, so I'd recommended bringing a friend or two.

I don't think that will be necessary. (http://www.sipan.org/~peter/NationStates/Tracker/index.php?nation=derscon&nation2=Undershi&nation3=&nation4=&nation5=&nation6=&nation7=&nation8=&nation9=&nation10=) :p

Also, 140 million? That would be the total amount of people in your entire military -- Army, Navy, Air Force, etc, plus reservists -- and only during wartime (which granted, we'd be in).

On the other hand, there are two fairly active resistance movements in Undershi, some christian fundamentalists in Saint Rynald Province and some Maoists in Southland Province. I have a map ready - if you're seriously interested and begin a thread, then I'll post it there.

Christian Fundamentalists? Excellent, the perfect ally for a Protestant autocracy. XD

Oh, and will you agree to lenient terms OOCly before we begin?

I guess it would depend. TG me your AIM/MSN if you have it, we can talk over there.

Also, how do you feel about chemical weapons, including nerve gas?

I'd rather not use it too much, since if you use it on us, we're not above using it on you. But, if we do use it, keep it tactical, not strategic.

I cannot believe this argument over the space assault is still going on.

I don't think that will be necessary. (http://www.sipan.org/~peter/NationStates/Tracker/index.php?nation=derscon&nation2=Undershi&nation3=&nation4=&nation5=&nation6=&nation7=&nation8=&nation9=&nation10=) :p

Also, 140 million? That would be the total amount of people in your entire military -- Army, Navy, Air Force, etc, plus reservists -- and only during wartime (which granted, we'd be in).



Christian Fundamentalists? Excellent, the perfect ally for a Protestant autocracy. XD



I guess it would depend. TG me your AIM/MSN if you have it, we can talk over there.



I'd rather not use it too much, since if you use it on us, we're not above using it on you. But, if we do use it, keep it tactical, not strategic.

Well, in Undershi, 26% of the populace is made up of True Undershis, who go to boarding schools where they learn how to fight in addition to their academic subjects from age six on. At eighteen to twenty, they all do two years of military service, and past that they have staggered call-up of every True Undershi for one month a year, plus every single weekend. Sort of like a hyped-up version of the American National Guard or the Swiss system. Plus there are non-True Undershi Janissaries. To accurately describe Undershi, you'd have to paraphrase a phrase originally used to refer to historical Prussia: It isn't a state with an army, it's an army with a state.

Also, the Order Police, Occupation Police and IIS are paid for out of the Law and Order budget, but their equipment and training is almost military - the Order Police and Occupation Police wear full armour and are equipped with either rifles or automatic shotguns, while the IIS are basically Undershi soldiers in black uniforms (although they're actually generally a bit less well trained and a bit less disciplined, although they are courageous.) This doesn't apply to IIS Storm Troopers - they're the best of the best.

All of that said, if you put your entire military on the job, you probably won't need any help, but I'd recomend keeping some troops back in your homeland in case someone tries to raid.

As for nerve gas, if you invaded, the Undershi military would make heavy use of nerve gas, and would expect to have it used against them in return. I assume you agree that use of chemical weapons will not be a reason to go nuclear?

As for AIM etc., I don't have an account, sorry. I could TG you, though?

Oh, and I could give you info on both resistence movements if you like.

I cannot believe this argument over the space assault is still going on.

Same here - it has really gotten bogged down...

So is Undershi the one in charge of all CA response to getting sats whacked, or just the only one willing to actually engage when they aren't ganging up on some five million citizen newb?

Well, in Undershi, 26% of the populace is made up of True Undershis, who go to boarding schools where they learn how to fight in addition to their academic subjects from age six on. At eighteen to twenty, they all do two years of military service, and past that they have staggered call-up of every True Undershi for one month a year, plus every single weekend. Sort of like a hyped-up version of the American National Guard or the Swiss system. Plus there are non-True Undershi Janissaries. To accurately describe Undershi, you'd have to paraphrase a phrase originally used to refer to historical Prussia: It isn't a state with an army, it's an army with a state.

For historical Prussia's time, that was okay. In modern context, it isn't. that kind of RP is generally irrelevant. Your entire military -- all branches, reserves/active duty/etc -- is 5% at MAX, period. The rest you can have as militias or stuff -- I RP a lot of stuff like that -- or insurgents, but NOT part of the army itself, not state funded like that. Otherwise, your economy would tank.

Also, the Order Police, Occupation Police and IIS are paid for out of the Law and Order budget, but their equipment and training is almost military - the Order Police and Occupation Police wear full armour and are equipped with either rifles or automatic shotguns, while the IIS are basically Undershi soldiers in black uniforms (although they're actually generally a bit less well trained and a bit less disciplined, although they are courageous.) This doesn't apply to IIS Storm Troopers - they're the best of the best.

LOL I HAS AN SCHUTZSTAFFEL.

Good for you. We all do.

All of that said, if you put your entire military on the job, you probably won't need any help, but I'd recomend keeping some troops back in your homeland in case someone tries to raid.

I find it unlikely that I'll need help even without my entire military on the job, and no one will try and raid. :P

But, if you insist...

As for nerve gas, if you invaded, the Undershi military would make heavy use of nerve gas, and would expect to have it used against them in return. I assume you agree that use of chemical weapons will not be a reason to go nuclear?

Well, if it turns into an RP where all you're doing is firing nerve gas, I might just glass you, since tossing nerve gas left and right makes for generally boring and un-fun RP.

And technically, Dersconi policy dictates that any WMD use gives us legitimate reason to respond with our full arsenal. But me nuking you out of existence makes for poor RP, and is somewhat counter-productive for my purposes. :p

Use it a lot, though, and I might toss in a tacnuc every once in awhile, though. WMD is a WMD is a WMD. Or not, all depends on how I'm feeling at the moment. ;)

I doubt it, though. I'll keep it to biochem, unless it turns into a scientists' war.

As for AIM etc., I don't have an account, sorry. I could TG you, though?

That'll work.

Oh, and I could give you info on both resistance movements if you like.

A TG would be appreciated. ;)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y87/fahooglewitz1077/AkimonadSeal_Flat.png
Official Proclamation

The Autocratic Federated Empire of Akimonad hereby resigns its membership in the Corporate Alliance.

Good day,
Dr. Jules Hodz
Undersecretary, Akimonad

One down! :D

One down! :D

ROFLMAO!

So is Undershi the one in charge of all CA response to getting sats whacked, or just the only one willing to actually engage when they aren't ganging up on some five million citizen newb?

Evidentially, yeah.

Evidentially, yeah.

Maybe that's the case, but if so then the quality of the CA really has deteriorated. BC hasn't been on much, but if he had, I'm sure he would be trying to work out losses too.

Oh, and I want to make a little clarification: I'm not godmodding with my nation's military - to get an idea of what they're like, think of Fascist Italy in WWII - they look really cool in their uniforms, but they're not very good soldiers.

The Occupation Police and Order Police don't have any heavy equippment, and suck at fighting actual military forces. The standard IIS troops are closer to Italian Blackshirts than the SS - they're fanatics who'd probably die before surrendering - but they won't be very effective before they die. As for the actual Undershi Army, most of it is made up of Second Line militia-type units that are pretty much worthless at anything other than positional warfare. Then there're the Janissaries - they're tough and brutally trained, but not the most loyal of troops. They're recruited from a slave population, so if it looks like Undershi might lose, they'll either surrender or revolt.

So, Undershi is like fascist Italy - it's all "Lol, we've got 140 million bayonets, dudz", but in reality most of those troops aren't actually worth much in a fight.

I'll TG you with info on the resistance movements and so on.

OOC:
GPE,

I suggest you either join some of our existing open conflicts or arrange some new conflicts with active CA nations. When your threads involve active and willing participants, they go a lot further. Indiscriminate attacks that include large numbers of inactive, indisposed, or uninterested nations will be ignored. Nations that are not around to represent themselves cannot be harmed. Roleplaying their actions and inflicting damage upon them in their absence is the very definition of godmoding.

OOC:
GPE,

I suggest you either join some of our existing open conflicts or arrange some new conflicts with active CA nations. When your threads involve active and willing participants, they go a lot further. Indiscriminate attacks that include large numbers of inactive, indisposed, or uninterested nations will be ignored. Nations that are not around to represent themselves cannot be harmed. Roleplaying their actions and inflicting damage upon them in their absence is the very definition of godmoding.

*nods head*

It kinda gets 'whacked' when there are like 50 threads on the war. One on the HQ attack, hundreds on invasions, some others, and now all we need is this to add the disarray...

Yeah, Undershi's merchant Marine didn't really notice that their 'rifle' could've put a sizeable hole in a few of my ships, plus wipe out the boarding party...
(A .50 cal railgun if I am not mistaken)

Nice weapons, just that they really don't like using them properly...

Undershi rifle: Fired once in anger, fired on three occassions due to fear. Only dropped twice. Being sold at scrap value.

Though that one with the butcher knife was a pain to kill...

I really need to restart a super-soldier program, as I don't entirely trust my 6.5x55 to do all it claims... (it bounced off of one of the gaurds in Griffencrest's mansion, no, wait, that was a 7.62x25...)

Sorry about the heart thing.

OOC:
GPE,

I suggest you either join some of our existing open conflicts or arrange some new conflicts with active CA nations. When your threads involve active and willing participants, they go a lot further. Indiscriminate attacks that include large numbers of inactive, indisposed, or uninterested nations will be ignored. Nations that are not around to represent themselves cannot be harmed. Roleplaying their actions and inflicting damage upon them in their absence is the very definition of godmoding.

Look, son, you gotta take things into context.

We stated we'd be attacking CA space assets. Now, tell me, if a CA nation is inactive, would we attack them? No, of course not, that's stupid, and, because of the obviousness of such a fact, we took for granted, and assumed you would be smart enough to realize this.

We were, evidentially, wrong. Or, you do realize this, or are simply feigning your ignorance because you, now that you stand a chance of not winning, are now backing out of the conflict OOCly.

Also, we intended on joining some of the other RPs, but no one is kind enough to provide ALL of the links to me, unfortunately, and no one has kept me up to date. I would search and post myself, but I, unfortunately, have been pressed for time as of late. I have gotten zero OOC help from CA members, but I've gotten a bit of help from the NPE, save certain members of the NPE, who seem to be attempting to limit or inhibit me; these people shall go unmentioned.

So far, Undershi is the only responsible person amongst you, having actually decided not to hide behind a "lol not sure?" or other completely empty OOC arguments to not address the situation. While I feel some of his arguments are incorrect in addressing the situation, he is better than all of you for actually addressing the situation.

All I have seen from members of the CA are straw men, dodges, and retreats. I'm beginning to regret ever getting involved in this RP, simply from the complete incompetence I've seen from the CA, OOCly. How you get anyone to RP with you -- assuming this is normally what happens -- is beyond my understanding.


Oh, and I want to make a little clarification: I'm not godmodding with my nation's military - to get an idea of what they're like, think of Fascist Italy in WWII - they look really cool in their uniforms, but they're not very good soldiers.

Oooooooooh, okay. Gotchya.

Yeah, Undershi's merchant Marine didn't really notice that their 'rifle' could've put a sizeable hole in a few of my ships, plus wipe out the boarding party...
(A .50 cal railgun if I am not mistaken)

Nice weapons, just that they really don't like using them properly...

Undershi rifle: Fired once in anger, fired on three occassions due to fear. Only dropped twice. Being sold at scrap value.

Though that one with the butcher knife was a pain to kill...

I really need to restart a super-soldier program, as I don't entirely trust my 6.5x55 to do all it claims... (it bounced off of one of the gaurds in Griffencrest's mansion, no, wait, that was a 7.62x25...)

Sorry about the heart thing.

Well, at least we've got good gear to... not use as we fail utterly at opposing our enemies. The only situation I can think of where Undershi troops did a good job fighting was during the Battle of Gomez Valley, where the 122nd IIS Storm Trooper Division fought on until there were only two hundred something survivors out of an original force of 10,000. Through their sacrifice, they allowed the rest of the CA expeditionary force to escape... and, they also scored a positive kill ratio - rare for Undershi troops.

Thanks for your concern about my condition. I've been told it's not going to kill me in the near future unless it gets much worse, so that's good. I'm taking medication for it now, and am trying to improve my health as best I can - things will hopefully get better, not worse.

Look, son, you gotta take things into context.

We stated we'd be attacking CA space assets. Now, tell me, if a CA nation is inactive, would we attack them? No, of course not, that's stupid, and, because of the obviousness of such a fact, we took for granted, and assumed you would be smart enough to realize this.

We were, evidentially, wrong. Or, you do realize this, or are simply feigning your ignorance because you, now that you stand a chance of not winning, are now backing out of the conflict OOCly.

Also, we intended on joining some of the other RPs, but no one is kind enough to provide ALL of the links to me, unfortunately, and no one has kept me up to date. I would search and post myself, but I, unfortunately, have been pressed for time as of late. I have gotten zero OOC help from CA members, but I've gotten a bit of help from the NPE, save certain members of the NPE, who seem to be attempting to limit or inhibit me; these people shall go unmentioned.

So far, Undershi is the only responsible person amongst you, having actually decided not to hide behind a "lol not sure?" or other completely empty OOC arguments to not address the situation. While I feel some of his arguments are incorrect in addressing the situation, he is better than all of you for actually addressing the situation.

All I have seen from members of the CA are straw men, dodges, and retreats. I'm beginning to regret ever getting involved in this RP, simply from the complete incompetence I've seen from the CA, OOCly. How you get anyone to RP with you -- assuming this is normally what happens -- is beyond my understanding.



Oooooooooh, okay. Gotchya.

Yeah, Undershi's a paper tiger, etc..

As for the stuff in orbit... I haven't done as much research as I would have liked, for obvious reasons. I agree I would have taken heavy losses, though.

Also, I would like to try to defend the other members of the CA - they're probably as confused as I am. I think that an attack like this could actually be an NS first. They're normally much better RPers, and I hope they'll get back to usual soon.

Derscon,

How about I create a thread called "a fist up their ass", and have CA nations indiscriminately fire 200,000 ASAT missiles at NPE and GPE?

Keep in mind that we won't tell you exactly which nations we are attacking, what exactly we are attacking with, and what quantities of weapons we used against particular nations. Everything will be vaguely worded. In some cases, we won't even bother to write more than a sentence describing an attack. Your nations will just have glean what they can from our miserable posts, and take a wild guess. Naturally, we will expect your nations to assume they lost everything, and we will endlessly argue with anyone that thinks otherwise.

Furthermore, we insist that your nations be ineptly managed, and that our nations have supernatural luck. When we start moving massive amounts of stuff into position to attack you, your nations should all remain oblivious until it is too late. When our fleets travel somewhere, every last one of your nations should fail to detect our ships. When one of our air force bases launches fighters, vast number of your satellites should be waiting nearby for convenient destruction.

I doubt that thread would appeal to you much.

PS. I still recommend either joining some of the open wars or finding some active CA nations willing to fight you. At the very least, you ought to edit your posts to provide the basic information people need to respond. If you aren't attacking everyone; then tell us who you are attacking, what you are attacking them with, and give us an idea how that attack is being distributed. As it is written now, CA nations cannot read your thread and know what is attacking them. Also, you guys need to cut back on assuming complete incompetence of the part our space agencies and intelligence agencies. I don't like to read over and over how every single CA nation failed to notice huge quantities of space assets being moved around, Rosdivan's fleet movements, Rosdivan launching thousands of aircraft, etc. It is baloney.

One down! :D

ROFLMAO!

Don't flatter yourselves.

Btw, haven't you CA nations thought about upgrading your charter, GASN does not exist any more so its quite outdated.

Somebody please tell me what is going on.

Wow... Still around...

BC, how would you feel about a Non-Aggression Pact with me?

Somebody please tell me what is going on.

From what I've gleaned: we're in a pissing contest over a massive attack on our satellites.

From what I've gleaned: we're in a pissing contest over a massive attack on our satellites.

Yep. And its been going on for around two weeks or so now?

Yep. And its been going on for around two weeks or so now?

Hell, I'm pretty sure its been going on longer than that ma man.

Yep. Whole thing has kind of gone to hell.

Yeah, it's probably actually been a little longer like Wanderjar said. I just posted an offer as far as my satelites were concerned, but no one has responded to it yet.

Derscon,

How about I create a thread called "a fist up their ass", and have CA nations indiscriminately fire 200,000 ASAT missiles at NPE and GPE?

You could. Just we did it first.


Keep in mind that we won't tell you exactly which nations we are attacking, what exactly we are attacking with, and what quantities of weapons we used against particular nations. Everything will be vaguely worded. In some cases, we won't even bother to write more than a sentence describing an attack. Your nations will just have glean what they can from our miserable posts, and take a wild guess.

We attacked everything in space owned by active CA nations with tens of thousands of missiles, both space and air based. More likely hundreds of thousands given Derscon's size.


Naturally, we will expect your nations to assume they lost everything, and we will endlessly argue with anyone that thinks otherwise.

If yo'd like to explain why ZMI is wrong or somehow is biased in favor of the GPE, I'd love to hear it.


Furthermore, we insist that your nations be ineptly managed, and that our nations have supernatural luck. When we start moving massive amounts of stuff into position to attack you, your nations should all remain oblivious until it is too late.

Given that you were engaged in a full-out war with other people demanding your attention, there was not a massive amount of stuff moved into position (I'm the only one who did any mobilization to my knowledge, and that consisted of sortieing part of my fleet), and deceptive measures were used (such as the public speculation on fleet being headed towards Haven, where I've got a large vested interest in the current war).


When our fleets travel somewhere, every last one of your nations should fail to detect our ships.

Given that none of my ships was moving into an attack position, it really wouldn't matter if you had detected them. Not to mention that I can launch strikes from three thousand plus miles away, so it's not exactly like I need to get them really close to you.


When one of our air force bases launches fighters, vast number of your satellites should be waiting nearby for convenient destruction.

Or perhaps we timed the launches to coincide with when CA satellites would be overhead. Ever think of that?


PS. I still recommend either joining some of the open wars or finding some active CA nations willing to fight you.

Given that the war threads seem to have a habit of dying, and requests for information in them go unanswered, there's a minor problem with that.


At the very least, you ought to edit your posts to provide the basic information people need to respond. If you aren't attacking everyone; then tell us who you are attacking, what you are attacking them with, and give us an idea how that attack is being distributed. As it is written now, CA nations cannot read your thread and know what is attacking them.

We're attacking every active CA nation with a godawfully large number of missiles, from air and space. How hard is that to understand?


Also, you guys need to cut back on assuming complete incompetence of the part our space agencies and intelligence agencies. I don't like to read over and over how every single CA nation failed to notice huge quantities of space assets being moved around, Rosdivan's fleet movements, Rosdivan launching thousands of aircraft, etc. It is baloney.

No, your inability to understand a simple post is the complete incompetence. I never moved around any quantities of space assets. They had all been there for quite a long time. My thread announcing the introduction of space based weapons was back in January 2007 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=513435). As I stated in my opening post, they were given their launch commands and launched from their operating locations, they were not moved prior to the operation. My fleet movements did involve deceptive measures, but even if detected, there's nothing at all that would have meant for you, and thousands of aircraft are intercepters from my own airbases. Big whoop. That's supposed to mean what to you, even presuming you have AWACS satellites over my nation and that they wouldn't have been jammed the moment the operation went into effect (or even earlier as random harassment)?

Be it possible or not, the launching of space based missiles to destroy every CA satelite is... well... a bit shit, putting aside the literary blandness of having done so it's definantly a huge missile wank, and whilst that's not against the rules it is looked down upon, so yeah, whilst you may or may not have just destroyed the CA in Space you've just lost every shred of credibility that you may have had with any of us.

Be it possible or not, the launching of space based missiles to destroy every CA satelite is... well... a bit shit, putting aside the literary blandness of having done so it's definantly a huge missile wank, and whilst that's not against the rules it is looked down upon, so yeah, whilst you may or may not have just destroyed the CA in Space you've just lost every shred of credibility that you may have had with any of us.

Now this is harsh, but I really don't think they care.

Toop: Do you think they really care if they lost credibility in the eyes of the most looked down upon current II Alliance which has no room to say anything about respect/credibility.

Toop: Do you think they really care if they lost credibility in the eyes of the most looked down upon current II Alliance which has no room to say anything about respect/credibility.

Based on who's eyes? Yours? Maybe you and NPE/GPE might think the CA is looked down upon, but I have yet to find evidence backing up your claim...

Well the very fact the last war the CA had against my allies and the Sovereign League they ignored because Blackhelm was flying wooden planes with ASAT's and Soviet heavy anti-shipping missiles.

Well the very fact the last war the CA had against my allies and the Sovereign League they ignored because Blackhelm was flying wooden planes with ASAT's and Soviet heavy anti-shipping missiles.

Klandonia, don't tell me you mean the Gnat's or the Earwigs...They are perfectly fine, get over it.


EDIT: Armament:

2x 30mm ADEN cannons
2x 500 lb (227 kg) bombs or 18x 3 in (76 mm) rockets

These are Gnats. BC uses Earwigs, I believe. They are better Gnats, basically...

Wooden planes can not carry heavy Kh-22's, they wouldn't even take off.

Toop: Do you think they really care if they lost credibility in the eyes of the most looked down upon current II Alliance which has no room to say anything about respect/credibility.

So you've decided to respond to my argument with an overgeneralisation, well done for you, you should respect the member not the Alliance, I should hope, also, that you aren't judging my OOC character by my actions on the II forums? Cos if so then you might aswell call me a Clown/Ninja/Wolf/Goblin/Soldier/Cyborg, and i'm sure there are others who are a part of the CA that completely differ from their IC portraits, this game is built for harmless fun and my version of harmless fun happens to come from the Antagonistic side, it's a flight of fantasy away from my goody two shoes personality.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Neo-Erusea/leasathseal.png
Official Government Comminique

The Military Republic of Leasath wishes to enter the world stage on the right foot by applying for an alliance. Hence we now wish to apply for membership in the Corporate Alliance.

We await a response.

Signed,
Diego Navarro
Leasath Supreme Commander

Wooden planes can not carry heavy Kh-22's, they wouldn't even take off.

This is what you call wooden?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/GNAT-XR537.jpg
Gnat

And the Earwigs are not wooden, they are made of cheap steel...

I didn't know if he used the Gnat or not, even still a Gnat couldn't carry a Kh-22.

Mal, they were not his gnats, they were wooden remote controlled aircraft. Now, the CA seriously needs to respond to the GPE attack. Otherwise, we'll have to call off this war.

Well, I just agreed to lose about 90% of my satelites - I hope other CA members will agree to losses now, even if they are lighter than that.

Also, I'm basically inviting as many NPE and GPE members as feel like it to invade my nation under Derscon's leadership - I promise you a good fight and a good RP (although, I'm going to be out of town from wednesday until monday, so that could cause problems).

Also, I'd like to defend the CA - we might be the most hated, and perhaps the most despised, but there are actually plenty of decent RPers in the CA. We've just been busy what with the school year starting and all. It seems that the CA has over-represented students as compared to the other alliances, but that could just be me.

As a student and a travelling one at that, I can understand, Undershi. Don't worry, the GPE also has a heavy student representation.

As a student and a travelling one at that, I can understand, Undershi. Don't worry, the GPE also has a heavy student representation.

AS does the NPE. About every one of us is in high school, I think. I am, Wandy is, AB is, Shakal is my age (who knows about school :P), TPF is in school, maybe not high school. Gataway is in High School, and I dunno about Binaria.

AS does the NPE. TPF is in school.

D: I am sophomore lol. And Gataway is coaching before he ships for boot. He already graduated.

I'm no authority on space anything, but i'd put my trust into any member of the CA. If someone wants to step up and figure some loses, i'd be more than happy to accept them.

From what i've heard BC just shipped off to college.

Consider yourself part of the family Leasath.

AS does the NPE. About every one of us is in high school, I think. I am, Wandy is, AB is, Shakal is my age (who knows about school :P), TPF is in school, maybe not high school. Gataway is in High School, and I dunno about Binaria.

lol I'm done with high school..Ive even completed 2 years of college level studying already since I did college entry courses during my JR year in a special program...and then took other classes my SR year..and some during the summer...thus how I'm going into the Army as a Corporal instead of a private...and yes I'm helping coach basketball before leaving for boot...and enjoying my last days of freedom

Klandonia, don't tell me you mean the Gnat's or the Earwigs...They are perfectly fine, get over it.


EDIT: Armament:

2x 30mm ADEN cannons
2x 500 lb (227 kg) bombs or 18x 3 in (76 mm) rockets

These are Gnats. BC uses Earwigs, I believe. They are better Gnats, basically...

Actually the Gnats as used by BC aren't fine. They have no space for a decent modern radar, they would require extensive reworking for utilizing AMRAAMs, and the missiles would have a severely reduced range due to poor speed and altitude performance.

Official Statement To The Corporate Alliance

Due to a change in government and policy we must withdraw from the CA. Since signing up we have never been an active member, and now being a member of this organization clashes with the beliefs of other alliances we are in.

General. Claes,
High Commissioner of the Social Republic of Honako

Sorry to hear it, but I never noticed you before so life goes on.

I read someone wanted the threads for the war. These are all I've got:

Bring 'em Out (Griffincrest Front, ATTN: NPE) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534507)
Bring 'em out OOC (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534514)
To Settle a Debt: ATTN Kampfers (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534541)
One Fell Swoop (Attn. Barokin) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534531)
The Complete and Total Annihilation of NPE Headquarters (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12939161#post12939161)
In to the maw attn deserted territories (MT) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534889)
Corporate-Prussian War OOC (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=534781)

How many of these are still active is anyones guess, I collected them in my favorites as they popped up and I haven't been checking up on any but my own, which are moving frighteningly slowly.
I know these aren't all of them, I recall situations with the Cyrstal mountains, Prussia, and DZR (or around there) but don't have threads, and obviously I'm missing the space attack.

Hey BC, here's some linkys for you. And I must say you're quite the popular subject around the emerging oil nations these days.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536816
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536780

EDIT: would you believe you've already posted in that second one? You never cease to amaze me. Though the constant bumping of those threads by the nation worrying about you invading doesn't help them.

So I've recently come back into town after a rather long trip and hope to become active once again within the alliance, so if anyone needs any help militarily or economically let me know because my assets are currently fully unoccupied elsewhere.

Well, the CA has triumphed in a couple of areas, and my invasion of Kampfers has been called off, due to the threatened invasion of my own homeland, which made sending five million plus troop overseas seem like a bad idea.

Although, it was a sort-of minor victory for the CA - if I remember correctly, I killed more enemy ships than I lost ships, so that's good.

Like I said, I can send help if you need it.

And were all commercial CA satellites attacked too? Because that would help in figuring out my losses.

The Republic of Greston would like to join the CA, we agree to the Charter, and hope that you can put any conflict or hatred between us behind us, and that we may join the CA. thank you.

The Mandalorian Empire would endorse Greston. We have had good relations with them in the past....

We await your answer.

I haven't been doing terribly much lately since college is starting and I've got to deal with that, but hopefully I'll be able to do some more stuff soon.

About the whole satellite thingamabobber, how does a missile work in space? Nobody leap on me and try to decapitate me please, or call me an uninformed incompetent, cause that seems to be going around. I'm just wondering what make a missile fly in a vacuum. If anyone knows, thanks.

I haven't been doing terribly much lately since college is starting and I've got to deal with that, but hopefully I'll be able to do some more stuff soon.

About the whole satellite thingamabobber, how does a missile work in space? Nobody leap on me and try to decapitate me please, or call me an uninformed incompetent, cause that seems to be going around. I'm just wondering what make a missile fly in a vacuum. If anyone knows, thanks.

Same basic physics as a normal missile, really: Expanding gasses are vented out the back, and thus push the thing forward. Only difference between an atmospheric and exoatmospheric missile is that the latter needs pre-oxygenated fuel.

Oh, and you shouldn't be afraid to ask questions for the most part. It doesn't really make you look foolish, and you learn for the next time you need it. Anyone that DOES try to bite your head off... Well, you probably don't want to deal with them anyway.

Like I said, I can send help if you need it.

And were all commercial CA satellites attacked too? Because that would help in figuring out my losses.

No, non-military satellites were not attacked.

Be it possible or not, the launching of space based missiles to destroy every CA satelite is... well... a bit shit, putting aside the literary blandness of having done so it's definantly a huge missile wank, and whilst that's not against the rules it is looked down upon, so yeah, whilst you may or may not have just destroyed the CA in Space you've just lost every shred of credibility that you may have had with any of us.

Well, for one, we're only attacking active members, as stated 1249023509230958 times previously. That, and attention would predominantly be focused on CA nations currently involved in the war. IF you're a CA nation and not fighting in the Corporate-Prussian War, then you likely would not have had space weapons utterly annihilated. If you're actively participating, we would have sent much much more in that direction.

Also, what TSS said.

I am going to go with around 65-70% losses considering I haven't been involved recently in any CA wars and considering that many of my satellites have anti-missile defenses and weapons.

Greston:

I seem to remember you trying to apply before and having it come to nothing, but... given Malds. endorsment, there's no reason you should be denied membership. Welcome.

DT, he's cool...

Anyways, Check the TPF n00k post. We have a little before the missiles get to us. Nuclear arsenal
time.

n00k=phail (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=536940)

Just saw it, 'tis unfortunate. We don't have much of a choice. Hate to send everything nuclear though.

That is, if you guys know who sent it. Still have not seen an answer to that yet.

Well I've been trying to stay out of the OOC debates recently since I'm staying out of the war, but this is a slightly serious matter... While TPF is within his rights to launch the attack, there are a few problems with assuming he can get away scot-free. At least IMO, feel free to correct me if I'm way off the mark...

One is that while there has been an attack on CA space satellites and many have been destroyed, not all of them have. Undershi losing 90% and No Taxes losing 70% are the only numbers I've seen so far, and I would assume that satellites over their own nations are probably among the more likely to survive.

Two is that Mal has a number of allies outside the CA/outside the current conflict who could help him figure out whats up.

Three is that while you have tried suppressing satellites, to my knowledge there's been nothing done to hamper the efficacy of SOSUS-style systems or simple sonar. Not to mention Mal's own subs and fleets, which I would assume keep a decent watch for hostile subs during times of war, especially when TPF is already attacking his ships with subs.

Four is that, even disregarding all that, and assuming that Mal and the rest of the CA can't figure anything out common sense comes into play. IE, the NPE+GPE empire just carried out a massive attack on military and ABM satellites, and then all the sudden there's a nuclear attack.

Gee I wonder who could be behind it? :p

Well, I had forgotten than way back when this started, Black and I agreed to no WMD's. My friend reminded me, so its now moot.

On another note, are we ever gunna get this space attack sorted out? Several of our members are inactive/going to be inactive, so we sort of want to wrap this up.

GASN disbanded. And I hope you know you are joining an evil alliance. :p

Qadesh would like to join this noble alliance. We have two other nations [Maldoirans and New Manth] which may speak on Qadesh's behalf. Qadesh is a new nation, but is getting strong...we express our readiness and willingness to send forces to combat GASN

Thank You
David Edward, Dictator of Qadesh

No, TPF YOU are evil....not this alliance...they are noble people. Two of Qadesh's most noble allies call this alliance home, and [hopefully] will I.

No, TPF YOU are evil....not this alliance...they are noble people. Two of Qadesh's most noble allies call this alliance home, and [hopefully] will I.

*throws you in*

Come on! It's a house party...Yea, this alliance iz sweet.

President David Edward breathed deeply, and sighed...

"Today is a new day..." he said. "Qadesh has entered the world stage, and thus her military has been upgraded" As follows:

500,000 Solders Vektor CR-21 Milkor MGL Mk-1 six round 40 mm; Vector SP1
250,000 Heavy Weapons Soldiers
50,000 Snipers/Grenadiers
100,000 Surgeons, Doctors, Nurses, & Camp Staff
100,000 Reservists equally armed

5,000 Olifant Mk 2 Tanks
2,500 Patria Infantry Vehicles
2,500 RG-32 Vehicles

Navy:
500 Valor Class Frigates [each w/ 2 Atlas Oryx helicopters]
100 Fleet Replenishment Ships
100 Type 209/1500 Submarines

Air force:
750 F-161 Sufa Fighter/Bombers
500 Atlas Oryx helicopters

Is this sufficient enough for our entrance, we can train more soldiers, if you like... These numbers do not include the 55,000 man force Qadesh keeps on Cyprus 'just because' I mean, as part of another conflict.

Any opinions on this force deployment?

No, TPF YOU are evil....not this alliance...they are noble people. Two of Qadesh's most noble allies call this alliance home, and [hopefully] will I.

Hm, look up their atoricties, compare to mine... hm.

Hm, look up their atoricties, compare to mine... hm.

n00k phailure for one.

n00k phailure for one.

We can do it for real if you want.

We can do it for real if you want.

Was that a sad attempt at a threat?

I guess so. But hey, its a decent one considering the CA's refusal to accept a legit attack on their sat network. We're still waiting for a response on that. What has it been now, three weeks?

I guess so. But hey, its a decent one considering the CA's refusal to accept a legit attack on their sat network. We're still waiting for a response on that. What has it been now, three weeks?

What's decent? n00king in 1 post? No preperations, nothing, just 1 post with n00ks...>_>

Oh and Blackhelm, when you see this, you have TG.

What's decent? n00king in 1 post? No preperations, nothing, just 1 post with n00ks...>_>

It's better than ignoring a thread. For three weeks.

It's better than ignoring a thread. For three weeks.

Considering the fact that I know squat about Space attacks, and many CAers, as you have witnessed, as not here. Undershi and a few others are the only ones who know anything about space.

Everyone knows about n00ks, though, and how they are one of those last-measure, 'Lawl, we're gunna die! n00k tiem", kinda things...

Considering the fact that I know squat about Space attacks, and many CAers, as you have witnessed, as not here. Undershi and a few others are the only ones who know anything about space.

Everyone knows about n00ks, though, and how they are one of those last-measure, 'Lawl, we're gunna die! n00k tiem", kinda things...

All I am saying is that we have not had a single post on that thread detailing casualties. Even when third-party people came in and when respected users who know about this sort of thing had also posted. Sounds to me like "Oh, crap, they are about to own us! Lets hide!" Which, I know is not the case for most CA users.

All I am saying is that we have not had a single post on that thread detailing casualties. Even when third-party people came in and when respected users who know about this sort of thing had also posted. Sounds to me like "Oh, crap, they are about to own us! Lets hide!" Which, I know is not the case for most CA users.

Speaking of casualties, when are you going to get those casualties on the NPE HQ that DT and I inflicted. That thread was created long before the space attack, yet there are no casualties. Lol!

Speaking of casualties, when are you going to get those casualties on the NPE HQ that DT and I inflicted. That thread was created long before the space attack, yet there are no casualties. Lol!

I am not even involved in that thread, and as far as I know, and I have seen the thread, they've been giving casualties.

I am not even involved in that thread, and as far as I know, and I have seen the thread, they've been giving casualties.

Oh really? Last time I checked, which was not too long ago, Nothing was made on the NPE HQ damage. I am not talking fleet hits, but rather tank's, buildings, any grounded aircraft, etc...I wanna see what I killed...:/

Oh really? Last time I checked, which was not too long ago, Nothing was made on the NPE HQ damage. I am not talking fleet hits, but rather tank's, buildings, any grounded aircraft, etc...I wanna see what I killed...:/

Well to be honest, there was not that much there in the first place. Kampfers just like put it on the map. All I had was some office buildings.

Well to be honest, there was not that much there in the first place. Kampfers just like put it on the map. All I had was some office buildings.

Exactly. This is the quote we were looking for. Office Buildings. When DT and I attacked, there was an airport there. DT and I said that there was no airport and TPF said it was just office buildings...Apparently, communication in the NPE isn't at its top...;) But oh well...

We The Black Wolf Clan wish join your Corporate Alliance. We are Noble Soliders and will fight to the last Man. We Hope todo Business soon.

Wandy is the one with an airfield...TPF said HE had office buildings there...you're twisting words around now...you're about as bad as liberal america...

Ja, I thought they'd have to have oxygenated fuel, but what is the rocket exhaust pushing against? In an atmosphere I thought it was propelled by pushing against the air behind it, and there's no air in space.

Soulforge, rockets don't move by pushing against the atmosphere, they move by expelling propellant gas very fast in the other direction.

A missile in space would work by the same principle as the Apollo missions or any other powered spacecraft.

Alright, that makes sense. Thanks mucho.

*throws you in*

Come on! It's a house party...Yea, this alliance iz sweet.

I'd guess so, and BC when are you going to answer my request to join?

Qadesh: Your welcome to join, but there is no GASN, that post is outdated. Now it's the NPE.

North USSR: You are welcome as well, and we're honored that you made your first post here.

Greston: Don't count on BC coming in anytime soon. But you're in with Mals. support.

No, TPF YOU are evil....not this alliance...they are noble people. Two of Qadesh's most noble allies call this alliance home, and [hopefully] will I.

Please give me some of the Hallucinogens you are on...

Qadesh: Your welcome to join, but there is no GASN, that post is outdated. Now it's the NPE.

North USSR: You are welcome as well, and we're honored that you made your first post here.

Greston: Don't count on BC coming in anytime soon. But you're in with Mals. support.

OOC: ok thanks, where is he right now? And where is a good thread I can help you out agianst the NPE in?

he's away at school I think...oh how i love being done with school period...I just need my OCIS..classes and such...

Yep, BC's college bound from what I've heard. He does seem to be getting on for a bit every other afternoon, but he's hard to get in contact with.

As for where we need help to only active conflict I hear of is the sat attack. If you have any experience in those matters someone should be able to get you a link to that thread (I don't have one). Once we get through that it seems an invasion of Undershi is on the books, though whether or not he'll need help is up to him.

Nope I've never been involved in a space attack but isn't there something with a nuke attack on Maldorians somewhere, and if Undershi want's help I'll be glad to.

Nope I've never been involved in a space attack but isn't there something with a nuke attack on Maldorians somewhere, and if Undershi want's help I'll be glad to.

TPF took that back.

Also, no arguing over who's more evil... we can all be evil together, right?:D

Wandy is the one with an airfield...TPF said HE had office buildings there...you're twisting words around now...you're about as bad as liberal america...

Erm...Naa rly. The point is, you guys didn't discuss the defense of it. Your organizational skills can be better. I believe Wanderjar has more power, so I'd like those aircraft losses, please.

what do you mean experience?...the only thing to really go off of is real ASAT missiles...there are no space bound defenses against them in RL to base how effective they would be for NS purposes