NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: Wouldn't the Kingdom be relatively untouched by what is happening other than what is happening to the South in Greece though?

OOC: Wouldn't the Kingdom be relatively untouched by what is happening other than what is happening to the South in Greece though?

ooc
yes, you are out of the fallout pattern, however, you will suffer Nuclear Autumn effects

GB, can you get on Chatzy really quick?

I have been pondering a new form of government that I'd like to explore in China during and after the rebuilding period. Here goes...

1. The government will blend facism, democracy, and technology.

2. There will be various branches in government to increase the effectiveness of the nation as a whole. For instance, some of the following branches would be created... Transportation, Infrastructure, Energy (power plants, electricity, transformers, etc.), Commerce, Construction, Mining, Agriculture, Science (focus on implementing existing technologies), Research (research new and upcoming technologies), and so forth. More departments can be added at a later date, when it is warranted, like a Computers department or Genetics department.

3. Each of these departments will have two representatives, one male and one female, from all of the provinces (40'ish in my China). These representatives will be elected on their merits and skill, such as degrees in colleges (BA degrees, MA degrees, PHD's, etc.). An example of this process would be as follows... A biologist runs for an office in the Agriculture department, and his rivals in the election process could be other biologists, farmers (owners or workers), livestock breeders, and so forth. Another example would be an artichect running for office in the Infrastructure branch and his election rivals could include urban planners, janitors, electricians, etc. In some cases the eligible professions could overlap, as for example a genticist or a biologist could run for office in the Agriculture Branch, Science Branch, or Research Branch.

4. All candidates are given an equal amount of funds to run their campaigns. The funds cannot be increased by any means, including donations, contributions, fund-raisers, etc. This will guanatree that each candidate will have an equal opporunity to run for office, and him / her winning the election will rely on his / her creditnals and convincing people he / she is the right person for the office. The fund limit would be around perhaps $5 million dollars (US dollars) per candidate. This eliminates the unfair advantages in RL elections like the uber-rich capitalists like Bush and Perot had aganist the common average man (like yourselves or the average everyday John Smith). This also opens up the elections to the common man, instead of the rich people always winning elections (through huge amounts of campaign funds).

5. The premier leader or president of this new government will be elected directly by popular vote by the people themselves. If the majority fails to reach the 50% mark (if two candidates, the 34% mark if three candidates, 25% mark if 4 candidates, and so on), a second election is held. The second election will be held by the branches of government to determine who will become the leader. If this second election fails, then a new election will be held, but with the top one or two candidates from the previous election, and a whole set of new candidates. Then the process repeats itself if needed.

6. The "President" will serve a 5 year term, and all the officials in the various branches will serve 5 year terms as well. There will be no term limit on the various positions. This allows for successful leaders to lead for as much as they can, whereas allowing for bad leaders to be voted out of office at the next opporunity.

7. Should the president or any of the Branch officials approval ratings drop under 25% for more than three months, then new elections are held to determine a better and more suitable leader.

8. The amount of candidates running for the Presidency can not exceed more than 5 and the funds limit for the Presidency election should not exceed $25 million per candidate. The number of candidates per Branch office can not exceed more than 3 (3 male and 3 female), and the funds for each candidate should not exceed more than $1 million.

8. These measures should ensure a truly egalitarian form of government, as every branch will have a position for one man and one woman in each branch, regardless of ethnicity (Chinese, Tibetian, or Mongolian). This also allows for your everyday John Smith with skills and talent to run for office, instead of politics being limited to only the rich and famous (Bush family, Reagan, Clinton, etc.)

----------------------------

Still trying to think out military stuff and how to integrate a facist-like military into this "Government by Scientists and Technicians" stuff. I'm also trying to figure out the economic aspects of this as well (how to reward workers who put more into their jobs, and the whole "energy credits" thing that could replace paper and gold currency).

Please do share your thoughts and feedback on this new government system I'm proposing.

events have been moved forward to March 9

moving as fast as I can

will read your post tomorrow Sharina and give you an opinion then

Can someone re-post the link to Chatzy? I got a new computer; ergo, I need new links.

On an unrelated note; what is the status of Quebec Independence in this timeline?

On an unrelated note; what is the status of Quebec Independence in this timeline?

in RL, that movement didn't really get going until the late 60s. However, I will start taking a look at it soon as North America is a bit more troubled now

in RL, that movement didn't really get going until the late 60s. However, I will start taking a look at it soon as North America is a bit more troubled now

Excelent.

I'm beginning to think I should drop Pakistan for some Industrialised Western country, since being a poor-as-dirt third-world shit-hole that isn't going to catch up to the rest of the world until like 2020 isn't that fun, and Quebec would be one of those countries. Other countries I'm looking at are Poland and Spain. But I want to be Quebec, because then I get to be all "Vive le Quebec Libre!"

the die offs are beginning in China as previously explained during the post strike explanation.

the die offs are beginning in China as previously explained during the post strike explanation.

Lucky China. HE gets huge die-offs, while I keep my stupid huge population and large growth rate. Looks like I'm now going to be the worlds most populous country *grumbles*

Lucky China. HE gets huge die-offs, while I keep my stupid huge population and large growth rate. Looks like I'm now going to be the worlds most populous country *grumbles*

ooc
sorry, didn't have an excuse to nuke you too :)

I am sure he would have cheerfully traded situations with you

ooc
sorry, didn't have an excuse to nuke you too :)

I am sure he would have cheerfully traded situations with you

If I was him, I woulda ditched out from being China long time ago and become somewhere like the Netherlands, or Yugoslavia, or something.

Can someone re-post the link to Chatzy? I got a new computer; ergo, I need new links.

Just a reminder.

Just a reminder.
http://www.chatzy.com/921930878279

I was wondering isn't this war in Europe pretty much unpopular in CSPS nations? after all they got nuked so many times and are running out of fuel? Aswell as being the Aggressors and violating international laws? and how come the stupid UN is not issuing any Embargos on nations that violate international laws?

China, I'd like to give you some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on your new form of government.

I think it's plausible that it might emerge, but not so plausible that it would work The problems I see are as follows:
1. The branches of disiplines is going to run into problems. Look at the amount of pork barrel spending and so forth that messes up US democracy. If each branch of government is elected by its practitioners, you're going to have immense problems with vested interests. Suppose that your minister of agriculture makes a policy that ensures that the best land for farming stays for farming, even if it's on the edge of a huge city. Makes sense from an agriculture perspective, but not from a good of society perspective.

2. I can't see China going for equal male-female representation. This is China.

3. Your system would discourage entrepenuership. Suppose that a new manufacturing process was invented that would reduce the number of manufacturing workers by 50%. This is a good thing overall, but this process would certainly be supressed by the Ministry of Manufacturing, because no minister would so alienate his voter base as to allow half of them to be laid off.

4. We have politicians for a reason. A brilliant, yet completely uncharismatic scientist is not the best man to run government and provide direction. Despite popular opinion, Joe Smith is not probably qualified to run a government. In fact, by making the selection (in theory) based on skills, you make sure that the most narrowly focused people will be elected, to the detriment of the government.

5. Why the limit for number of people running for president? How does this happen? This may become a default gateway allowing only a favored few to run for office.

I would encourage you to adopt this form of government, but it would probably end up as bad as the Soviet Union. Great in theory, poor in practice. If your aim is a powerful, wealthy China, I would shy away, but as a RP element, it's superb.

I was wondering isn't this war in Europe pretty much unpopular in CSPS nations? after all they got nuked so many times and are running out of fuel? Aswell as being the Aggressors and violating international laws? and how come the stupid UN is not issuing any Embargos on nations that violate international laws?

ooc
domestically it will begin to have an effect, but not yet. As far as the UN goes, the NPC nations are working on something, but it takes months to accomplish and we haven't had enough time pass yet. Expect something to show up soon though.

This year has not been good for proving the legitimacy of the UN :)

Thinking about what China said, things in Russia will probably need to change after the war. Russia failed in just about all of its postwar goals, diplomatic (reclaim St. Petersburg, Karelia, Murmansk, and Vladivostok), economic, (currently at 50%-ish productivity), and military (the poor progress in the Polish/Scandic and Ukrainian fronts). Thus, post-war, things will change. If it goes well, Russia will likely go from a fairly unremarkable nation to a first rate one (RL Israel, South Korea, etc.), but if it goes badly, people will likely feel more extreme measures are needed. Communism may not have enough support to take power, but fascists would.

China, I'd like to give you some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on your new form of government.

I think it's plausible that it might emerge, but not so plausible that it would work The problems I see are as follows:
1. The branches of disiplines is going to run into problems. Look at the amount of pork barrel spending and so forth that messes up US democracy. If each branch of government is elected by its practitioners, you're going to have immense problems with vested interests. Suppose that your minister of agriculture makes a policy that ensures that the best land for farming stays for farming, even if it's on the edge of a huge city. Makes sense from an agriculture perspective, but not from a good of society perspective.

2. I can't see China going for equal male-female representation. This is China.

3. Your system would discourage entrepenuership. Suppose that a new manufacturing process was invented that would reduce the number of manufacturing workers by 50%. This is a good thing overall, but this process would certainly be supressed by the Ministry of Manufacturing, because no minister would so alienate his voter base as to allow half of them to be laid off.

4. We have politicians for a reason. A brilliant, yet completely uncharismatic scientist is not the best man to run government and provide direction. Despite popular opinion, Joe Smith is not probably qualified to run a government. In fact, by making the selection (in theory) based on skills, you make sure that the most narrowly focused people will be elected, to the detriment of the government.

5. Why the limit for number of people running for president? How does this happen? This may become a default gateway allowing only a favored few to run for office.

I would encourage you to adopt this form of government, but it would probably end up as bad as the Soviet Union. Great in theory, poor in practice. If your aim is a powerful, wealthy China, I would shy away, but as a RP element, it's superb.

my first initial impression is to agree with Middle Snu, and also add in that this theory does fit well with traditional Chinese Mandarianism (government workers selected by examination)

This year has not been good for proving the legitimacy of the UN :)

Thinking about what China said, things in Russia will probably need to change after the war. Russia failed in just about all of its postwar goals, diplomatic (reclaim St. Petersburg, Karelia, Murmansk, and Vladivostok), economic, (currently at 50%-ish productivity), and military (the poor progress in the Polish/Scandic and Ukrainian fronts). Thus, post-war, things will change. If it goes well, Russia will likely go from a fairly unremarkable nation to a first rate one (RL Israel, South Korea, etc.), but if it goes badly, people will likely feel more extreme measures are needed. Communism may not have enough support to take power, but fascists would.

reasonable reactions and no, this hasn't been a good year for the UN

China, I'd like to give you some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts on your new form of government.

I think it's plausible that it might emerge, but not so plausible that it would work The problems I see are as follows:
1. The branches of disiplines is going to run into problems. Look at the amount of pork barrel spending and so forth that messes up US democracy. If each branch of government is elected by its practitioners, you're going to have immense problems with vested interests. Suppose that your minister of agriculture makes a policy that ensures that the best land for farming stays for farming, even if it's on the edge of a huge city. Makes sense from an agriculture perspective, but not from a good of society perspective.

Lets take this example. If the cities continue to expand in urban sprawl, it will end up eating away farmland, which would mean China will lose more farmland that it would need to feed its population. Thus, if the policy passes in this example, it will force urban planners and engineers to start building cities UPWARDS instead of SIDEWAYS, and substitute "Urban Sprawl" with the "Urban Wall". This means more taller apartment complexes, underground complexes, and possibly even proto-arcologies. If more land is needed, then the farmland will be irrigated from the Gobi desert or something in equal proportion to land lost to the city.

2. I can't see China going for equal male-female representation. This is China.

In fact, the US was the same way in the 1800's. Besides, I already instituted trends of pro-women rights with women being allowed in the military. In addition, the nuclear holocaust would force change in China- for example, there will be a shortage of skilled men, so women will have to assume some of the jobs or skills required, furthering the equal man-woman relationship.

3. Your system would discourage entrepenuership. Suppose that a new manufacturing process was invented that would reduce the number of manufacturing workers by 50%. This is a good thing overall, but this process would certainly be supressed by the Ministry of Manufacturing, because no minister would so alienate his voter base as to allow half of them to be laid off.

Actually, this system would encourage competition. People will try to invent and develop better products, methods, devices, etc. just like in capitalism. The fewer people forced to do menial everyday jobs (like putting stuff into boxes, moving boxes from Point A to Point B, stamping addresses on boxes, etc.) means there's more people able to pursure other ambitions like art, science, medicine, healthcare, education, etc. Besides, with the reduction of the work-force in the manufacturing sector, it means products will be cheaper (as you won't have to pay as many workers salaries in the manufacturing sector). People will be able to buy cars, household appliances, tools, etc. at 1/2 or even 1/4 of the original prices, which everybody probably will end up loving.

Who can resist buying a luxury car for only $10,000 in RL today compared to $20,000? Or buying a microwave for only $50 dollars compared to $100?

Besides, the influx of people freed up from menial work will be sorely needed as it will greatly help the Chinese medicine, health, and education sectors, considering tons of Chinese have cancer, diseases, etc. This will hopefully allow more Chinese to pursue cures for cancer, disease cures, treatment for all sorts of radiation-related sicknesses, improving the education system making Chinese people the most intelligent on Earth (everybody becomes Einsteins), and so on.

4. We have politicians for a reason. A brilliant, yet completely uncharismatic scientist is not the best man to run government and provide direction. Despite popular opinion, Joe Smith is not probably qualified to run a government. In fact, by making the selection (in theory) based on skills, you make sure that the most narrowly focused people will be elected, to the detriment of the government.

And people like the Bush family or Ross Perot are wonderful candidates? Not good leaders at all, otherwise they'd be swimming in approval and decisively winning aganist America's foes (terrorists, Osama Bin Laden, North Korea, etc.). People like Ted Kennedy in RL would prevent progress because of stupid things like "I don't want wind power because it will ruin my beachfront property" or Bush- "If we switch to non-oil power, then my family will lose a lot of money." I want to have China avoid these idiotic kinds of leaders, and people who actually have a shred of common sense (which is lacking in these rich / famous people).

In fact, some Joe Smiths *CAN* become great leaders- look at high schools (student councils), RL pro-enviromentalists like Erin Brovonich (sp?), football coaches that successfully lead their teams to the championships (transform them into superstars from geeks or what have you... example would be the movie "Remember the Titans" which is based off a true story), etc.

I'm only trying to eliminate the "wealth elitism" in politics by allowing anybody who can prove himself or herself REGARDLESS of income levels the possibility to lead.

Another example would be like this...

A regular soldier becoming a leader of the military through combat experience. The soldier will know exactly firsthand how war is- like tactics, stategy, effects of weapons, enemy weapons, etc. in real experience, instead of looking at papers and words as a desk general would. If the military had commanders who actually experience the war firsthand and knows exactly everything that is happening to his / her soldiers in the battlefield firsthand instead of reading stats on sheets of paper, then the military will perform more efficiently (it will be able to adapt quicker to enemy weapons for example... like if the soldier leader says "the enemy's tanks have this ability that our tanks don't" then the military will scramble to address that issue instead of dilly-dallying for months or years under a desk-top bureaucracy)

5. Why the limit for number of people running for president? How does this happen? This may become a default gateway allowing only a favored few to run for office.

Needs to have limits, otherwise, we'd have thousands or even millions of candidates running for office, which would make elections impossible (both financially and socially). People wouldn't know which candidate to vote for if they had 1,000 candidates on the ballot, and spend billions of dollars to cover all the expenses for 1,000+ candidates.

If we had 5 to 10 candidates for Chinese presidency, that'd be far more manageable, yet have more flexibility than RL US (which usually only have 2 or 3 "prime" candidates running for president- Democrat, Republican, and any independent party like Whig, Green, Independent, etc.)

I would encourage you to adopt this form of government, but it would probably end up as bad as the Soviet Union. Great in theory, poor in practice. If your aim is a powerful, wealthy China, I would shy away, but as a RP element, it's superb.

I admit I'm not a political genius. I haven't thought this out fully yet- just the "skeleton" of it. I'm trying to come up with a form of government that will embrace science and technology as solutions to problems, reduce the probability of leaders making moumentually idiotic decisions like blowing up an Earth-Collision asteroid with nukes, which in fact would make the apocalypse far worse from thousands of smaller asteroid chunks... or leaders who have no idea or direction how to resolve situations like global warming, droughts, famine, epidemics, etc. but if they had a background in science or tech, then they would at least have a direction to go in and solve the problem.

Besides, I want to allow for everyday people to have a chance at government even if they don't have uber-wealth, aren't a CEO of a company, isn't a famous movie star, etc. This will allow the people to be governed by themselves instead of the "elite money / fame fat-cats" like in RL US (Bush family, Perot, Kerry, Kennedy family, Reagan, etc.)

Again, I'm not saying we do the time warp right now.

The only circumstance that I will support and push forward a time warp is if and when there's like 1/2 to 2/3 of E20 playerbase with nations completely wrecked (China, Egypt, and Turkey but instead of just these 3 nations, it's happening or has happened all over the world in E20) likely by any future nuclear exchanges. This is because by then, people will have to play the long waiting game to be able to RP exciting stuff again, and I have yet to meet someone in RL who loves the waiting game besides lawyers and doctors.

Thats all.

I truly believe it is now the time to seriously consider what I've said above in the quote.

I present three possible options for the future of E20 and most importantly, its community of excellent RP'ers. Here goes...



1. Rewind to start of 1964 before all these things happened. This means...

Egypt = still alive, not nuked
China = still alive, not nuked, and stable
USA = stable and no civil war
SU = less likely to destroy Europe in war, not nuked
Turkey = still alive, not nuked
USEA = still alive, not nuked, and stable
Russia = still decently strong, no widespread war damage to European Russia
India / Pakistan = not get destroyed or decimated
Japan = stable, no radiation, no disease epidemics
Korea = same as Japan
Philippines = same as Japan
UK = not risk lots of destruction should the European war continue

And so on.

This time around, China will actually destroy all its nuclear weapons, Strom Thurmond doesn't come to power and nuke China, the chain of events which followed won't happen, Egypt and Turkey wouldn't have their nuclear exchange, and the war in Europe won't be happening... and so on.

OR

2. A restart to 1900, but keep our current economic system (points, social services, factories, military maintainence, unit costs, etc.) to determine a more realistic 1900's-1930's, as well as a new E20 that doesn't have outrageous things like Germany invading Venzeula, Denmark trying to annex the Dominican Republics, the improbable rise of the Union (Germany+Russia), among other things.

This will allow us to learn from all our mistakes the first time around, and make a much better E20 in the long run.

OR

3. Fast forward E20 to the year 2000, transforming E20 to "E-21", or in other words, Earth 2000 - 2100. By then, practically all the nations have rebuilt from the "Apocalypse of 1964", populations and economy back on good terms and growth, the radiation + cancer + crap all dissipate / reduced a lot, all rebellions / secessions been put down (like in China and US if they do happen), and so forth.

Then we'll be able to start the Space Age in earnest, which means if Earth was wiped out in the 21st century, we can still survive on Mars or something.

----------------------------------------

Seriously, nukes should have never been used- I don't mind E20 having problems like Great Depressions, global wars, nations being savaged... but not the extremes that are happening in 1964 (400 - 500 million people dead, Europe and Asia = wastelands, the US in civil war, Egypt and Turkey wiped out, and so forth ALL AT ONCE in only 2 - 3 game months = too extreme).

Another reason why I'm pushing through these 3 options is because since the last time I proposed a time warp, plenty of more horrible things have already happened.

1. India is joining the European war soley because he's OOC'ly like "I want my population reduced". This means even more destruction, carnage, mayhem, and death in Asia.

2. The US is facing a civil war possibly with nukes, considering Washington D.C. was nuked, and there are probably still some insanity-filled Strom Thurmond supporters still alive and armed with nukes.

3. Europe's on a death spiral between the CSPS, Russia, UK, and France. If the combined might of UK, France, and Russia manage to push the CSPS back, then invade CSPS, then the CSPS will most likely use nukes aganist Russia, France, and UK as "National survival at stake" thing. The SU has indicated he would do something like that- after all, Turkey wiped out Egypt... what do you think Ukraine, Poland, and SU would do with the nukes they do have?

4. Germany might be dragged into the war because of the Arab Federation going at it with the Omanis who are supported by the UK / Commonwealth. Thus, Germany might end up siding with the CSPS fighting the UK / Commonwealth, meaning even more carnage in Europe. Not counting the potential for even more nuke damage (even Germany's 6 A-Bombs will do significant damage in Europe as its pretty small compared to Asia and the Middle East... or Germany getting nuked by the CSPS if it goes aganist the CSPS due to earlier German - CSPS bad relations).



At this rate, there won't be an E20 left by June / July in game terms... or by 1965. In this E20 timeline, 1964 truly is the Apocalypse or Doomsday scenario.

I vote for No.2

I vote that we continue on, at least for now. Fact is, the only countries really wrecked for certain are Egypt and China. However, I would be all for starting afresh (in 1900) if and when Europe blows itself to bits. Currently, there are nations available that would be interesting to play. Brazil, Indonesia, Poland, Ukraine, much of Africa, and so forth are still open.

It would be a tragedy to have this roleplay die off on the expectation of nuclear holocaust in Europe.

But once it happens? Seriously I'd prefer making this E-19. Less of a capability of people losing it totally. I mean really MAD is much less effective here because people are just wild and it kinda kills the experience.

Well I vote option 2, but we should revise the tech system first, and I'll post my ideas up later.

Course we haven't heard from GB. In truth I'd wait for his reaction before I vote cause that might influence if I react towards one way or the other. Cause personally going back to 1900 means my country is a colony again. Unless the US decided not to be a hypocrit in this time, unlike RL and give the Philippines freedom when it gave Cuba freedom.

Well the conflict in Europe is still onoing and many of them are on vacation, maybe you could handle their nations till the war ends then we can decide something.

Course we haven't heard from GB. In truth I'd wait for his reaction before I vote cause that might influence if I react towards one way or the other. Cause personally going back to 1900 means my country is a colony again. Unless the US decided not to be a hypocrit in this time, unlike RL and give the Philippines freedom when it gave Cuba freedom.

You could always choose to be another country.

Anyway I wouldn't support a restart just yet. We are getting close to needing one but not yet.

You could always choose to be another country.

Anyway I wouldn't support a restart just yet. We are getting close to needing one but not yet.

You have a point...part of the reason why I deleted my previous judgment, though it was also because GB hadn't put in his two cents.

Though if we do restart, I wonder if I can take the Ottomon Empire...

Don't mind me it's just a thought

Well I know that, I am just waiting for GB before I comment. Yep. And if I do, I have no idea what country I'd take.

I still don't think we've reached that point yet. If the war ends fairly soon (1965, seems long but in RL terms a two year war isn't all that bad), there would be damage yes, but nothing inescapable, perhaps comprable to WWII if nukes are not used. However, if the whole planet goes caput, the US continues nuking itself/other countries, and so forth, I'd favor a 1900 restart. I think we'd need a new Russia player though, as I don't know all that much about its early history. I'd take the Ottoman Empire, some random colony, or perhaps a minor nation (Portugal, Netherlands, etc.), with a fairly small colonial dominion, and not a major player in world affairs, at least while I read up on things.

I am completely against restarting the RP. However, I realize that if shit continues to hit the preverbal fan a lot of people (probably lead by sharina :P ) will quit, then I say go for a complete restart at 1900 to prevent the abuses that going to 1965 could lead to (i.e. I know not to get involved in Yemen cause Oman will attack etc.). Of course if we do restart, I call dibs on Austria-Hungary :)

considering that Safehaven2, Lesser Ribenia, Parthini, Lightning Star and Malkyer are on vacaction or unavailable for 2 - 3 weeks, and they all gave me orders to fight the war, starting over at this point wouldn't be fair to them.

We should at least wait until then before deciding anything.

I would support a restart if the world goes to complete and utter nuclear doom.

EDIT: Just because China got nuked is no reason to restart the RP. Sorry, Sharina, but the constant complaining is really tiresome.

Which I think ROd is the popular sentiment. It's a wait and see attitude, but most of us see the continuation of this war with large scale nuclear holocaust to be rather tedious and totally insane, and self destructive. While good for the movies in real life it isn't common. Especcially for larger and more developed nations. More to lose and you have less notion to use it. Personally I think this has gone to world politics, to suspence novel. Which isn't what it was supposed to be. At least I thought it wasn't.

Which I think ROd is the popular sentiment. It's a wait and see attitude, but most of us see the continuation of this war with large scale nuclear holocaust to be rather tedious and totally insane, and self destructive. While good for the movies in real life it isn't common. Especcially for larger and more developed nations. More to lose and you have less notion to use it. Personally I think this has gone to world politics, to suspence novel. Which isn't what it was supposed to be. At least I thought it wasn't.

actually esculation to nuclear weapons by the nations still at war or just joining is now less likely as the full effects are being realized. In my view, politicians are unlikely to accept the use of weapons of mass destruction at this point for any reason short of replying to a nuclear strike carried out against them. Battlefield use is still possible, but the risk element is now viewed as dangerously and possibily unacceptably high that such use would escaluate matters.

MAD worked in real life but the problem is that the conditions for it to work in this game did not develop.

Civilization will survive at this point unless a major (massive) series of nuclear exchanges occur. China is not going to be a superpower this century anymore, but there is no reason that the FNS, Japan, Russia, or a united Europe under the EU couldn't be. A balance of power could actually still be reestablished at this point. It is also extremely realistic that a conventional war between the CSPS and various other European (and their allies) nations continue because the situation was not stable and was bound to trigger conflict eventually.

Unstable regional politics leads to war, and always has. Main thing to remember about the real Cold War is that is was actually fairly stable.

I think all of you screaming for a restart are off your rockers.

We're trying to make this 'realistic', right? Well, in real life there is no reset button. I would hate to have to go all the way back to 1900 and rebuild everything (I'd probably take France back...).

To reset now would wipe away an entire year of roleplay, wars, and history. You got nuked? Deal with it. Maybe you should've done something differently. Stop bitching and figure out how to deal with it in game. The world isn't fucked. There is a massive conventional war in Europe. The only countries truly destroyed are China, Egypt, and possibly Turkey.

Africa is still intact. South America is still intact. So is a large part of the US. So is most of Europe. Parts of Asia are doing fine. So suck it up and play.

I think all of you screaming for a restart are off your rockers.

We're trying to make this 'realistic', right? Well, in real life there is no reset button. I would hate to have to go all the way back to 1900 and rebuild everything (I'd probably take France back...).

To reset now would wipe away an entire year of roleplay, wars, and history. You got nuked? Deal with it. Maybe you should've done something differently. Stop bitching and figure out how to deal with it in game. The world isn't fucked. There is a massive conventional war in Europe. The only countries truly destroyed are China, Egypt, and possibly Turkey.

Africa is still intact. South America is still intact. So is a large part of the US. So is most of Europe. Parts of Asia are doing fine. So suck it up and play.

Finally someone has the balls to say what I've been wanting to :D

Finally someone has the balls to say what I've been wanting to :D

You're very welcome. :D

By the way, I'm on chatzy right now if anyone wants to talk.

Ahh once again the world trembles at the power of those with the filthiest mouths. But arguing over it is not a positive experience, so I shall simply end my statement towards Kordo. Don't encourage his behavior. He might think it's acceptable.

ANd if that's true, then that means that with no outward damage, the SOuthern Hemisphere could build itself into an economic powerhouse. After all if this draws Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Australasia closer together, they could just overide the depression early by trading with eachother (My goal with the trade agreements and alliances between them.) ANd therefore while the rest of the world tears itself these nations may build themselves up.

And I can't leave it like this cause of curiousity. WHat things didn't exist in E-20 that did exist during the cold war that kept MAD operational.

OOC:

I realize what you guys are saying. However, I can't help but be very pessimistic when nuclear war is involved.

I do realize that I could switch nations, but I simply don't have the motivation to do so- I mean I don't see myself RP'ing or playing Ghana, Gambia, Mali, etc. It seems like no matter what I do- either being a warmonger or a peace-nik, I get destroyed regardless. I bet if I switched to Ghana or something, I'd only end up destroying it.

Perhaps I'm not cut out for E20 after all. You guys have like 10x the optimism as I do, and I admire you guys for it. Apparently, everything I "touch" ends up destroyed, ruined, or screwed up.

ANd if that's true, then that means that with no outward damage, the SOuthern Hemisphere could build itself into an economic powerhouse. After all if this draws Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Australasia closer together, they could just overide the depression early by trading with eachother (My goal with the trade agreements and alliances between them.) ANd therefore while the rest of the world tears itself these nations may build themselves up. .

that is largely true, Africa has that advantage as well as its much more highly industralized in this RP then it is in real life in the year 2006, which means it has a sufficiently large enough internal market to restimulate economies once the shock of events pass. South America is even in better shape, as it consists of the FNS and Brazil, and both have large internal markets and are hugely more industralized in this RP then in real life at the present day.

The impacts from radiation and climate will be relatively short term in the Northern Hemisphere, and Europe will recover, as will most of Asia. China will recover much more slowly, as it got hit much harder then anyone else except for Egypt (which will never recover, at least not this century), and even Turkey will survive.

The US too would rapidly recover from the effects of climate and radiation. For game balance however, I am having things occur in the US to weaken it as the US is a superpower for the very good reason that it was the entire 20th Century economically, and most of the 20th Century in military terms. If American power is used correctly, it can shape the course of events everywhere in the world at once. As this has caused problems because I am playing it correctly, and trying to run the game at the same time, drastic measures were called for and I am using whatever reasonably plausable reason I can think of to take the US out of the equation, or at least reduce its influence.

Its just as likely the US would have suffered some internal political turmoil but continued to remain the dominant power. If the US had used its direct military power, even with just conventional weapons, the War in Europe would be drawing to an end already with the Scandic Union and its allies defeated. After all, if the US had entered the Barents Sea with 12 carriers and 12 carrier airwings, supported by 8 Wings of B52s with conventional bombs along with the RAF and US fighters, the Scandic navy would have been wiped out quickly, its air force destroyed, and Norway wide open to invasion by US, FNS, and British marines followed an overland invasion of Sweden. The OA would have taken severe losses, but it would have ground the Scandics done and then Poland and the Ukraine would have been next.

A nuclear war would have been nasty, but in the end, an all out exchange would have wrecked the US, but totally destroyed the Scandic Union, China, USEA, Japan, possibily Korea, probably the UK, and wrecked Russia. The Indian subcontinent would have been hit on general principals as well.

So this war easily could have been a lot worse. Allowing the Chinese to develop their missiles would have eventually seen an even worse nuclear war late in the decade or possibly in the 1970s if any one made the slightest miscalculation, and even a conventional war would have been far worse then the one currently underway. Sharina, I know you try hard, but you have miscalculated strategically consistantly over the course of this game and I am rather sure that you would have done so again.

If we ever start over (either soon or once we finish the century), I STRONGLY encourage EVERYONE to read up on nuclear war and why we never had one

Which leads me to the next point


And I can't leave it like this cause of curiousity. WHat things didn't exist in E-20 that did exist during the cold war that kept MAD operational.

The simple fact is that the Cold War was between the Soviet Union and the United States, with allies on both sides. At no point did either nation ever push the other in what was clearly an area of vital interest (Europe, Japan) even when the opportunity presented itself. In addition, proxy wars were not allowed to ever draw in actual combat troops from both nations. So when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Hungary and Czechslovakia and threatened to do so in Poland the US stood by and only responded covertly and diplomatically, while when the US intervened in Korea and Indochina the Soviets supplied advisors but no combat troops.

Only when the Israels and Arabs were going at it 1969 - 70 and in 1974 was there a serious risk of a direct conflict, and both the Americans and Soviets realized they didn't want to fight World War III because of Israel and the Arab states.

The Soviet missile build up was GRADUAL, about 200 launchers or less a year for a decade, ending with the Soviets having 1600 ICBMs and the US 1000 ICBMs (more or less). It was also balanced as even though the Soviets built about as many submarines with missiles as the US did, it did not have anywhere near as many effective bombers, so that the strategic equation gradually changed from overwhelming US superiority to US/Soviet parity by the 1970s.

The US responded to overwhelming Soviet numbers in troops in the 1950s by building up its nuclear forces. Then expanding its conventional forces. The Soviets did not try to keep both a huge land army and build a huge nuclear force at the same time, as they realized this would be viewed as an obvious and dangerous threat. They also couldn't afford it. So while they were building their ICBMs, they also demobilized dozens of divisions.

In other words both the US and Soviet Union refrained from making SUDDEN destabilizing moves.

In this RP we had multiple nuclear powers plus huge conventional forces built up by the Chinese and CSPS while the OA relied on naval power and nuclear forces. When the Chinese decided to keep their massive conventional military and to suddenly build up their nuclear forces to parity with the OA, this completed shifted the balance, and it is what made the US attack on China happen. China with nuclear parity and overwhelming conventional forces could easily conquer Russia while the CSPS held off the Europeans and Americans. Since the conquest of Russia would make China the dominant superpower, overwhelming so, the US was not about to sit and let that happen. Matching the Chinese in ground forces wasn't possible, so what choices were left?

As a player, by the way, I did consult with Lesser Ribenia who gave me the go. I also consulted with Safehaven, and asked him point blank to give me some kind of IC reason why nuking China was something the US couldn't do. He said he didn't have one and I should do it. They both saw the situation as I did.

So that is the difference between RL history and history in this RP.

Lets see...

In the 1900's I thought I'd ally with Russia, considering that China was weak at that point and needed substantial amounts of investment and aid. That went well for the 1900 - 1910 era.

Then Russia / Vas approached me about helping Russia in WW-2 in this timeline. I didn't want to help because I didn't have the military power to do so, and I didn't quite have a suitable economy to support China at that time. So I hem-hawed until Vas said "You better attack LTA or I will invade you". Thus, I was forced to invade Burma and got beat back.

Afterwards, between 1927 - 1935, I tried to expand my economy so that I could finally have a decent military and domestic sector, but I didn't quite understand why social services was important. Then I was slammed with rebellion and revolt, then the Japanese literally stabbed me in the back after almost 30 years of solid alliance. My economy and military was all ruined.

Then come WW-3. China got nuked by the USSR and only survived because I "betrayed" the Pact officially and joined the LTA. I got aid from the LTA in rebuilding in the 1940's.

By the 1950's, I finally had a half-decent economy and the future looked bright for China (because I was finally able to afford good social services) as well as a decent military capable of protecting China from foreign invasion.

Then everything went straight down the toliet in the 1960's as the US built up its nuclear stockpile and China had to match that or risk being wiped out exactly like it was in 1964. Things went downhill from there.

----------------------------------

So as you can see, I'm starting to think I might not be cut out to be a E20 player because I can't do strategy or do good planning even if my RL life depended on it. Therefore, even if I played a new nation, I'd only end up destroying (or self-destructing) it just like what happened to China.

Thus, I honestly don't know whether I deserve to continue playing in E20 or not.

-Snip-

Don't talk like that Sharina, we all learn from our mistakes. And looking back over some threads Iv'e found some pretty glaring ones that Iv'e made that have landed us straight in this mess.

So as you can see, I'm starting to think I might not be cut out to be a E20 player because I can't do strategy or do good planning even if my RL life depended on it. Therefore, even if I played a new nation, I'd only end up destroying (or self-destructing) it just like what happened to China.

Thus, I honestly don't know whether I deserve to continue playing in E20 or not.

ENOUGH! :rolleyes: We get it, you're bad at strategy, bad at planning.....stop blaming yourself. It's getting old, fast.

EDIT: Like Ato said, you can learn. It's not too late. Learn!

a few things:

1. This war would have happened eventualy, and it's really just started (and in no way is it Sharina's fault)

2. I vote number 2 after things really get out of hand and nukes go flying, cause the begining 30 years or so were ridiculous. I would like Russia if we restart.

3. Although China is down, it's not out. Yes, you have lossed massive amounts of people but you can get them back, and other SCT troops can keep your nation together if necessary

a few things:

1. This war would have happened eventualy, and it's really just started (and in no way is it Sharina's fault)

2. I vote number 2 after things really get out of hand and nukes go flying, cause the begining 30 years or so were ridiculous. I would like Russia if we restart.

3. Although China is down, it's not out. Yes, you have lossed massive amounts of people but you can get them back, and other SCT troops can keep your nation together if necessary

Seconded. Come on, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Japanese and Korean military commanders inform their governments that a massive increase in ground troops will be required to try to hold things together in China. In addition, what aid that can be spared should be used to create Chinese militia units to assist.

Meanwhile, Ireland promises to send an infantry brigade, the Burgundians will send a infantry division, the Dutch an infantry division and the Belgians a HQ and an infantry division to assist. These forces will operate in Formosa to replace the American troops who are abruptly leaving, and will arrive in May. If the Chinese government approves the action. They will be under UN authority.

Liberia promises a C130 transport unit to assist in Formosa, and the Belgian Congolese will send a transport helicopter and 1 C123 transport unit to Formosa as well.

ooc
it will reduce some of the death toll caused by civil disorder

Ahem, since we don't want to repeat a ton of things when we finish the century, or everything is destroyed, whatever come first. How about we turn it to E-19. I mean seriously, we've already done the 20th century, why not the 19th. It had as much development as the 20th, and it'll take those nasty nuclear weapons out of the equation. (Which seriously if anyone ends up with one of those in the 19th century I am calling godmode instantly.)

Just an idea I thought of throwing out. And as for empires and stuff, there were always countries in rebellion. And also it would leave less NPC's for the GM to have to run. Just a throw out idea.

Japanese and Korean military commanders inform their governments that a massive increase in ground troops will be required to try to hold things together in China. In addition, what aid that can be spared should be used to create Chinese militia units to assist.

ooc
it will reduce some of the death toll caused by civil disorder

The Kim Government agrees to send in more troops, nobody really complains since they're too busy trying to keep themselves alive. Thus, another Infantry Division and a Mech Infantry Division will be sent into Shenyang, and an Infantry Corps to be raised at home to try and keep the chaos from spreading.

ENOUGH! :rolleyes: We get it, you're bad at strategy, bad at planning.....stop blaming yourself. It's getting old, fast.

EDIT: Like Ato said, you can learn. It's not too late. Learn!

Actually I think thats the problem.

I don't think I can really learn, because I sure didn't learn anything strategy-wise or plan-wise in the last 20 - 30 game years (or the last several RL months).

Unless I had someone do all my strategy and planning for me and go over it like ABC + 123, or something like that every step of the way then maybe. But on my own? I'll probably end up destroying China AGAIN in 1980, 2000, or whatever after it rebuilds itself again.

Actually I think thats the problem.

I don't think I can really learn, because I sure didn't learn anything strategy-wise or plan-wise in the last 20 - 30 game years (or the last several RL months). .

read those books I keep suggesting

agh...enough with the mad talk about restarting the freaking rp every time a nuke goes..take it like a man.. damn it...

After getting that out of my chest, if we do restart to 1900, I got dibs on Russia.

read those books I keep suggesting

I wasn't able to find it in my local library- its a small town library and doesn't quite have that many books. Most of what my town library has are children books, history books (like WW-2, Lewis+Clark Expedition, Medieval Times, etc.), fiction books (Stephen King, Tom Clancy, John Grisham, etc), and so on. There's hardly any concrete strategy books or books that go into detail about war scenarios and stuff like that.

::cracks knuckles::

my turn.

Those of you who have run into me on Chatzy know that I am 100% against a restart. It is a damn shame my internet was down for the past 12 hours, or I would have jumped on this faster. I'll try not to waste too much time with repeating what is said, so here are cliff notes.

There is absolutely no reason to RESTART the entire game based on events thus far. There is even LESS reason to restart based on the possiblity that something bad may happen in the future. By that logic, the game should never have been played. Any player who wants a syrupy sweet 20th century knows absolutely nothing about history.

If we MUST jump forward, I could possibly be convinced. However, a "wait and see" attitude must be taken until this whole mess is sorted out.

::cracks knuckles::

my turn.

Those of you who have run into me on Chatzy know that I am 100% against a restart. It is a damn shame my internet was down for the past 12 hours, or I would have jumped on this faster. I'll try not to waste too much time with repeating what is said, so here are cliff notes.

There is absolutely no reason to RESTART the entire game based on events thus far. There is even LESS reason to restart based on the possiblity that something bad may happen in the future. By that logic, the game should never have been played. Any player who wants a syrupy sweet 20th century knows absolutely nothing about history.

If we MUST jump forward, I could possibly be convinced. However, a "wait and see" attitude must be taken until this whole mess is sorted out.

Couldn't have say it better then that..well stated sir! *hats off to you*

I think a jump forward is our worst option. Nations who are severely ravaged (Egypt, China, etc.) would need time to rebuild, but to allow them to do something other than "all my points go to rebuilding," have them play as something fairly important (Brazil, Ukraine, Canada, even Russia if someone wants it badly), while they maintain NPC builds for their original nation. When it becomes functional again, they can switch back.

I think missing out on 10-30 years is even worse than undoing 64. An alternate-alternate history is OK, but one with a major gap isn't. The rebuilding years could see major upsets in the balance of power, or political systems in place. Perhaps the FNS will become a new superpower, or communism will return under the logic "how could it be worse?" The UN could fall apart, or become a force towards world government. The whole period where these would be decided, and the new world formed, would be missed.

In other news, direct any important Russian info to Abbassia or LR, by which I mean anything war oriented. Anything else can probably be handled by others, or wait until my return on the 24th.

I think a jump forward is our worst option. Nations who are severely ravaged (Egypt, China, etc.) would need time to rebuild, but to allow them to do something other than "all my points go to rebuilding," have them play as something fairly important (Brazil, Ukraine, Canada, even Russia if someone wants it badly), while they maintain NPC builds for their original nation. When it becomes functional again, they can switch back.

I think missing out on 10-30 years is even worse than undoing 64. An alternate-alternate history is OK, but one with a major gap isn't. The rebuilding years could see major upsets in the balance of power, or political systems in place. Perhaps the FNS will become a new superpower, or communism will return under the logic "how could it be worse?" The UN could fall apart, or become a force towards world government. The whole period where these would be decided, and the new world formed, would be missed.


Honestly, all of the options are god awful. The only reason I would be willing to jump forward would be if Sharina says that it is the only way he will keep playing. As far as I am concerned--no jumps, and no fall backs. Deal with the hand you are dealt people... (and thanks Ottoman for the support)

If you restart, I may not be willing to come back.

Hey Aussie, get on E20.

agh...enough with the mad talk about restarting the freaking rp every time a nuke goes..take it like a man.. damn it...

After getting that out of my chest, if we do restart to 1900, I got dibs on Russia.


sorry, already called it.

Sharina, I thought of an analogy that might fit well. Your situation is like taking off a bandaid. Right now you can either repair lots of factories in a year and starve 100 million people or slowly rebuild and lose 20 million. Personally I would just rebuild as much as possible because you can always get the people back (very cold blooded).

Or you can scrap half the damaged factories and get the other half back

I would suggest scrapping the damaged ones to get more in operation sooner, and not spending any points on rebuilding this year, but focusing everything on immediate survival. Besides, with enough population loss, China won't be able to actually support all of its production centers that it had prewar in any case, not counting the ones already destroyed.

Wait- I'm confused...

I have roughly 400 factories intact, 300 damaged, and 200 "destroyed". So if I go national effort and accounting the 1/2 cut in factory production due to the Depression, and the 25% reduction in total income as its April... I'll have around 450 points to use to feed my people, right?

However, I can't power these 450 production as I have no nuclear power plants (they are all damaged). I need to repair my 20 nuclear power plants to provide enough "points" for 500 production (25 production centers per 1 nuclear point). Repairing the nuclear power plants will cost 120 points in total, correct? So I'd essentially need 570 points (450 for feeding and 120 for restoring electricity and by extension communications and phones and TV's and such that run off electricity), correct?

450 points should be enough to feed 225 million people, correct? Add 225 million to the existing food supplies for 200 million people means I can save 425 million people? Then have the other aid go towards repairing my nuclear power plants to restore electricity to hospitals, phones, TV's, communication networks, etc. Then in 1965, I can try to repair factories as I'll have more "points" to spare than in 1964 and not needing 120 points in 1965 for nuke repair efforts.

Will all this work?

Assuming Chinese population drops to 300 - 400 million (depending on aid in 1964), my max cap will be 600 to 700 factories, right? So if I repair factories starting in 1965, I won't have to worry about natural growth or anything anymore as I'll essentially be at my cap when all the factories finish repairing by maybe 1970?

I thought you had massive amounts of reserve coal to use, and I have 5 or 6 extra oil points from my 1964 build you can get.


So can't you use the coal to fuel production and then repair/scrap all the damaged ones and feed your population with all your aid?

I thought you had massive amounts of reserve coal to use, and I have 5 or 6 extra oil points from my 1964 build you can get.


So can't you use the coal to fuel production and then repair/scrap all the damaged ones and feed your population with all your aid?

I show China having 12 coal, 9 natural gas, 8 hydro plus 9 oil, and those facilities were not targeted (and coal mining, safe underground away from fallout, would seem a better then usual occupational choice as compared to normal times)

pollution at this point is the least of China's problems, and thats enough energy to provide for 1140 production points, which would seem to me to make repairing the nuclear power plants a lower priority this year, especially as it would cost 6 points per powerplant to fix them, 120 points in all and 120 points would feed another 60 million people

I show China having 12 coal, 9 natural gas, 8 hydro plus 9 oil, and those facilities were not targeted (and coal mining, safe underground away from fallout, would seem a better then usual occupational choice as compared to normal times)

pollution at this point is the least of China's problems, and thats enough energy to provide for 1140 production points, which would seem to me to make repairing the nuclear power plants a lower priority this year, especially as it would cost 6 points per powerplant to fix them, 120 points in all and 120 points would feed another 60 million people

Actually, I have 60 coal, 35 or 36 units of natural gas, and 10 units of oil tucked away in my strategic reserves (like the US's Strategic Reserves).

And I can easily send you my Natural Gas, Coal, etc.

And I can easily send you my Natural Gas, Coal, etc.

It's a shame I dont have spare energy reserves to send....I do have two nuclear plants.

The Revolution begins in the US


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11349425&postcount=174

recommended reading: The Nine Nations of North America

Wow, that's weird, I read about this on Wikipedia the other day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America).

Wow, that's weird, I read about this on Wikipedia the other day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America).

thats the one...also recommended reading "Friday" by Robert A. Heinlein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday_%28book%29

Say it ain't so....

Check out this link as well:
http://www.garreau.com/main.cfm?action=book&id=3
I think its the whole book.

Sounds very interesting, indeed.

I must ask one very important thing though. Will nukes be used in the civil war in the US? I'm only asking this considering that there might still be "Conspiracy" survivors, similiar to the ones who nuked Washington D.C. and the US still have like 600 nuclear weapons left over.

Calls are made -Secretly- to all EEC nations to commit troops and/or money as per the Mutual Defence Clause in the Charter, this is to face the Scandic aggression. Reminding them of the benefits of a quick EEC victory. This includes: The Lowlands, Spain, Ireland, Germany, Czechslovakia and Bulgaria.

er back again. Ive started on the Ethiopia thread. It isnt much at the moment but i will continue...


anyways heres the Link to my thread.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11353005#post11353005post11353005

Welcome Ethiopia

Sounds very interesting, indeed.

I must ask one very important thing though. Will nukes be used in the civil war in the US? I'm only asking this considering that there might still be "Conspiracy" survivors, similiar to the ones who nuked Washington D.C. and the US still have like 600 nuclear weapons left over.

a lot more weapons floating around then that... several thousand actually

and you will just have to find out about the nuke part

Later I gather, though actually launching them at China isn't on their first itinerary at the moment I gather.

Can people please check Chatzy and answer a few questions I've asked.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11362393#post11362393

come post or get invited

back home now and pretty overwhelmed by everything thats happened here. Going to be a little while before I can catch back up, wouldn't mind a quick overview.

back home now and pretty overwhelmed by everything thats happened here. Going to be a little while before I can catch back up, wouldn't mind a quick overview.

I will be gone most of the evening... but you can probably catch me tomorrow

The Twilight War is going to speed up tech level advancement by 2 years for nations that are approaching tech level 8 and still spending the points on microcomputer research. In other words, earliest possible date is now 1968 instead of 1970

China and USEA will not be able to advance until 1969 at the absolute earliest because of infrastructure damage, economic disruption and general social disorder.

What about those who are reaching tech lvl 7.5?

What about those who are reaching tech lvl 7.5?

basically unless you got nuked, or had to cut your spending to tech research, your fine

The Twilight War is going to speed up tech level advancement by 2 years for nations that are approaching tech level 8 and still spending the points on microcomputer research. In other words, earliest possible date is now 1968 instead of 1970.

Nice. I've been still spending on Microcomps, so this totally rocks.

Back at my other camp now. I will be able to get on tonight and tommorow for a wee bit. I'm basically done until I think next Sunday.

Sorry.

I leave Germany to Abbassia for political stuff and GB military or economic if anything happens.

BTW, I will be telegramming both of them.

I have plenty of beef with my partition.

For one thing; Ayub Khan hasn't been president for more than 5 years. He's been vice-President, yes, but not President.

Secondly; Nehru was president of Pakistan for those 5 years. The first Nehru is president of Pakistan; his daughter overthrew him? That makes little sense.

Thirdly; Hindus and Muslims have always had equal rights in Pakistan/India, and there haven't been any religiously charged riots for the past 50 years.

Fourthly; couldn't you have come up with a better partition than the one we had in real-life? I mean come-on, where is your creativity? I expected to see more than just 2 sucessor states.

I'd only be in favor of restarting to 1900 if 3/4ths of the players voted yes.

If we do, I've got dibs on Canada! So then I can have Quebec become free, and then become Quebec...

I have plenty of beef with my partition.

For one thing; Ayub Khan hasn't been president for more than 5 years.

Secondly; Nehru was president of Pakistan for those 5 years.

Thirdly; Hindus and Muslims have always had equal rights in Pakistan/India, and there haven't been any religiously charged riots for the past 50 years.

Fourthly; couldn't you have come up with a better partition than the one we had in real-life? I mean come-on, where is your creativity? I expected to see more than just 2 sucessor states.


Maybe the best partition is the original one, but I would like to see Kashmir actually free this time, and I expect to see Bangladesh independant and at least parts of Pakistan annexed by the UIR, if not all of it, because Pakistan is incredibly weak right now.

Besides, even if there weren't riots and there were equal right doesn't mean the problem was exactly solved. For example, we've had equal rights ammendmants in America for a while, yet there's always discrimination. The divide between Muslims Hindus, and to a lesser extent Sikhs was always a problem after India was free (The Muslim League and Indian Natioanl Congress alliance was alive until they were free, then it went out the window)

Maybe the best partition is the original one, but I would like to see Kashmir actually free this time, and I expect to see Bangladesh independant and at least parts of Pakistan annexed by the UIR, if not all of it, because Pakistan is incredibly weak right now.

Besides, even if there weren't riots and there were equal right doesn't mean the problem was exactly solved. For example, we've had equal rights ammendmants in America for a while, yet there's always discrimination. The divide between Muslims Hindus, and to a lesser extent Sikhs was always a problem after India was free (The Muslim League and Indian Natioanl Congress alliance was alive until they were free, then it went out the window)

I wanted to see a Free Kashmir, a free Baluchistan, a free Punjab (as in Sikh), a free Bangladesh, a free Sikkim, and India split between northern (Indic) and southern (Dravidian) Hindus. That woulda been my plan if I hadn't gone to Washington this week.

I wanted to see a Free Kashmir, a free Baluchistan, a free Punjab (as in Sikh), a free Bangladesh, a free Sikkim, and India split between northern (Indic) and southern (Dravidian) Hindus. That woulda been my plan if I hadn't gone to Washington this week.
You get on AIM!

You get on AIM!

I have to re-download AIM (i'm on a new compy)

I wanted to see a Free Kashmir, a free Baluchistan, a free Punjab (as in Sikh), a free Bangladesh, a free Sikkim, and India split between northern (Indic) and southern (Dravidian) Hindus. That woulda been my plan if I hadn't gone to Washington this week.

A Kashmir, Bangladesh, and Punjab I could see, but Baluchistan would have been annexed by the UIR (and I'm trying to take as much of Pakistan for Warta as possible, a massive UIR would be hilarious)

A Kashmir, Bangladesh, and Punjab I could see, but Baluchistan would have been annexed by the UIR (and I'm trying to take as much of Pakistan for Warta as possible, a massive UIR would be hilarious)

But it might have its own host of problems, similar to the old FAS. After all, who's to say the locals would like Persians, Afghans, Pashtuns, etc. commanding them.

A Kashmir, Bangladesh, and Punjab I could see, but Baluchistan would have been annexed by the UIR (and I'm trying to take as much of Pakistan for Warta as possible, a massive UIR would be hilarious)

The Baluch would fight the invading UIR; the Baluch have always been seperatists, who fight any occupying power. Pakistan somewhat alleivated the problem by giving the Baluch huge amounts of autonomy, but they still rebelled a few times. The Baluch are better off independent.

I have to re-download AIM (i'm on a new compy)

Ok, it's done. NOW YOU GET ON AIM!

Anyhoo, now that Pakistan has been fricked over, I want to be Quebec. Or the Quebec Liberation Front. Whatever is there.

The Baluch would fight the invading UIR; the Baluch have always been seperatists, who fight any occupying power. Pakistan somewhat alleivated the problem by giving the Baluch huge amounts of autonomy, but they still rebelled a few times. The Baluch are better off independent.

I wouldn't invade unless I was attacked by them, and I would get a good reason, plus Baluchistan doesn't exactly have a strong army and the UIR does.

Check the Twighlight war thread for the possibility of an attack on my troops by extremists

But it might have its own host of problems, similar to the old FAS. After all, who's to say the locals would like Persians, Afghans, Pashtuns, etc. commanding them.

There didn't seem to be that problem with the UIR when it was formed, hopefully religion will be the deciding factor

Yay! Independant Sikhs!

I think at least the Sikhs should create Khalistan with all of Punjab. That would pwn.

Also, I would like to see Tibet and Burma merge to create the old Empire of Tibet.

I wanted to see a Free Kashmir, a free Baluchistan, a free Punjab (as in Sikh), a free Bangladesh, a free Sikkim, and India split between northern (Indic) and southern (Dravidian) Hindus. That woulda been my plan if I hadn't gone to Washington this week.

you won't get a divided India, and Bangladesh is too tied to India economically to benefit from independence, so will stay for now. That may change with time.

Real life Bangladesh is essentially an Indian client state anyway since the 1971 War.

Kashmir would likely stay with the Pakistanis, but the Baluchis and Sikhs would probably go for independence (Sikhs) or joining the UIR (Baluchis)

The USA is no more...

now you have several nations, and some of them are still well armed and have nukes.

Right now most of the nuclear missiles you will notice belong to Columbia and the Rocky Mountain Republic, while New England kept the missile submarines, and most of the new nations have B52s or B58s.

I wouldn't get your hopes up Germany, and Mexico, remember that Texas by itself, or California by itself, have bigger economies then you do. And are higher tech level.

This universe has not seen the massive migration of Mexicans into the US. Mexico is far more prosperous, birth rates in Mexico are much lower, and the destination of choice for immigrants is the FNS, where they speak Spanish, and are almost as industrilized as those Yanquis up north.

The USA is no more...

now you have several nations, and some of them are still well armed and have nukes.

Right now most of the nuclear missiles you will notice belong to Columbia and the Rocky Mountain Republic, while New England kept the missile submarines, and most of the new nations have B52s or B58s.

I wouldn't get your hopes up Germany, and Mexico, remember that Texas by itself, or California by itself, have bigger economies then you do. And are higher tech level.

This universe has not seen the massive migration of Mexicans into the US. Mexico is far more prosperous, birth rates in Mexico are much lower, and the destination of choice for immigrants is the FNS, where they speak Spanish, and are almost as industrilized as those Yanquis up north.

How come Texas and California have better economies than Germany? Just wondering, as Germany's pretty solid in RL, and Germany has a higher population and productivity cap than California and Texas in E20. California has, what, 30 million people in 2006 (RL) and Texas has like 20'ish million people in 2006 (RL) while Germany's E20 population is something like 80 or 90 million people.

Also, I believe Mexico had 100 million people (roughly) in RL in 2006, so it still has more people and therefore economic and industrial potential than California and Texas in E20 terms.

I thought that for a second and almost got really mad. Then I read the punctuation.

He said "Don't get your hopes up Germany, (comma makes separate clause) and Mexico, Texas and Cali... Blah blah blah.

I'm not sure I had any hopes for the ex-USA but w/e.

Just wondering, but would someone be able to RP the different nations of the former United States?

Argh... Germany or Texas...

How come Texas and California have better economies than Germany? Just wondering, as Germany's pretty solid in RL, and Germany has a higher population and productivity cap than California and Texas in E20. California has, what, 30 million people in 2006 (RL) and Texas has like 20'ish million people in 2006 (RL) while Germany's E20 population is something like 80 or 90 million people.

Also, I believe Mexico had 100 million people (roughly) in RL in 2006, so it still has more people and therefore economic and industrial potential than California and Texas in E20 terms.

remember the many earlier posts I have made about Latin America having a much lower birth rate then RL because they industrialized sooner? Also, California in real life has the 6th Largest GNP in the world in RL

Mexico might have more people (I will be checking things like that this week), but they are defintely aren't as industralized.

California 1964 population 16 million (approx) (plus population of WA, OR, HI, Polynesia, NV, add another 3 million) major industrial cities: Los Angeles / Orange County areas, San Francisco Bay area, Seattle, San Diego plus Hanford Nuclear facilities, largests dams in North America.
Texas 1964 population 10 million (approx) (plus populations of OK, LA, AZ, AR, and NM) another 3 million, most North American oil, major industrial centers in Baton Rouge/Shreveport, Houston, Beaumont, Dallas/Fort Worth, Amarillo/Los Alamos Nuclear facilities, Tulsa. Significant manufacturing in smaller cities
Mexico 1964 population (adjusted) 35 million

Both Columbia and Texas are also huge agricultural exporters (Texas Wheat, Cotten, Cattle while Columbia exports all manner of speciality crops plus rice and cattle)

so although Mexico has more people, its per capita industrialization is far lower. It also has less oil then Texas (although more then Columbia, but by much), doesn't export significant food, and its industry is concentrated in Monterrey, Vera Cruz, Tampico and Mexico City

Remember, Texas and Columbia each have about 10% of the US population but will have about 15% each of the US industrial capacity. New England and the Great Lakes Republics are the big industrial powers, while Utah, the Rocky Mountain Republic will be not much better off then Rumania or Bulgaria, and Dixie will have about what Texas has in industry but bigger population

US has a lot of production centers that are being split up amongst the new nations

Just wondering, but would someone be able to RP the different nations of the former United States?

likely yes

By the way, once the Twilight War ends, I would be fine with a 5 year jump forward, with time and gameplay starting 1970, and us actually starting 2nd week of August (as I will be gone 1st week of August)

This would allow some things to occur that take time but aren't real exciting

Parthini']Argh... Germany or Texas...

Heh- leave Germany and SU will molest it. :p

By the way, once the Twilight War ends, I would be fine with a 5 year jump forward, with time and gameplay starting 1970, and us actually starting 2nd week of August (as I will be gone 1st week of August)

This would allow some things to occur that take time but aren't real exciting

I support this.

By then, most E20'ers will be back from vacation (GB, Parthini, LR, Malkyer, etc.) and this 5 year jump will allow Europe and Asia to rebuild without the RL tedium of waiting. Besides this will allow the 5 USA nations to develop distinct government and such to be ready to be "player controlled" starting in 1970.

Can you post the economies and militaries of the new republics?

Also, whats the probability of New England supporting a Quebec revolution, and then then Quebec and New England joining up and conquering the Maritimes and Newfoundland?

Can you post the economies and militaries of the new republics?

Also, whats the probability of New England supporting a Quebec revolution, and then then Quebec and New England joining up and conquering the Maritimes and Newfoundland?

figure next week.. I don't think they should be immediately available.

Good chance though Canada will break up so Quebec can have its dream of independence. However, most likely, the Canadian Maritimes will form a close relationship with either New England or the UK, due to cultural and economic ties.

Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan are more like the Great Lakes Republic, while BC is more like Columbia, and the Inuits are going to get their autonoomy a lot earlier then real life.

figure next week.. I don't think they should be immediately available.

Good chance though Canada will break up so Quebec can have its dream of independence. However, most likely, the Canadian Maritimes will form a close relationship with either New England or the UK, due to cultural and economic ties.

Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan are more like the Great Lakes Republic, while BC is more like Columbia, and the Inuits are going to get their autonoomy a lot earlier then real life.

I was thinking the Canadian Maritimes would join in with New England, with the French-speaking portions of New Brunswick going to Quebec.

Here's a thing, though; Newfoundland (not a Maritime province, btw; it's an Atlantic Province, though) has two parts; the island and the mainland. Would the mainland join Quebec, or no? I figure that Newfoundland (the island) would join the UK, but I'm not sure.

CIC-Middle East Rommel approaches the King of Jordan about the possibility of merging Jordan and what remains of Egyptian UAR (Sinai and Palestine).

He promises that King Hussein will be granted total control of both lands, and will be given substantial German Aid. Half of the remaining Egyptian army will join the new country and will be under Jordanian rule. The other half will become the new Imperial Arab Force under German command. It's job will be to maintain security in the region and will be funded by the Empire.

Rommel also promisses that Germany will sign a treaty guarenteeing the independance of the country. The country will also have joint control of the soon to be rebuilt Suez Canal, which will be run by German, British and the new countries personnel.

As NPC mod:

King Hussein II of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan accepts the offer and the new nation is formed. It is formally called the Hashemite Kingdom of al-Quds, meaning, the Holy Land, with the new Capital at Jerusalem. However, many Europeans call it Jerusalem for ease.

OOC: I'll figure out the division of the Army next week.

OOC: I've been toying around with ideas for various East Asian countries and I remembered about the old Tibetan Empire. I'm willing to bet that Tibet won't remain a part of China, but how feasible do you think it would be for Tibet and Burma to merge and recreate the old Tibetan Empire of the 800s-1100s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#The_Tibetan_Empire

due to actions that occur late in 1964

1965 may have to be delayed a bit

due to actions that occur late in 1964

1965 may have to be delayed a bit

Which / what actions?

Just got back from Southern Portugal, will do some quick reading to catch up.

By the way I got my dates wrong about my camping trip to France, it's in 9 days time not 2...

I was thinking the Canadian Maritimes would join in with New England, with the French-speaking portions of New Brunswick going to Quebec.

Here's a thing, though; Newfoundland (not a Maritime province, btw; it's an Atlantic Province, though) has two parts; the island and the mainland. Would the mainland join Quebec, or no? I figure that Newfoundland (the island) would join the UK, but I'm not sure.

How much do you fully understand regarding the Quebec Independance Movement?

Which / what actions?

now if I told you that it wouldn't be a surprise now would it

but it might include a large number of mushroom clouds

or not

but it might include a large number of mushroom clouds

or not

Oh come on, would you stop doing that?! I swear the first we've got to do is to install SDI then we can get to the moon :p

Of course if it is not too late by then.

but it might include a large number of mushroom clouds

Oh dear God...

-------

ICly for what it's worth: Britain restates that it's nuclear umbrella covers the Commonwealth, EEC and other currently allied states (Russia etc fighting the CSPS). If missiles are detected as launched against any of these states Britain will have no choice but to retaliate against the launching nation, the world must surely understand the need for such a policy to reduce threats of further strikes in these times.

OOC: I have a feeling something very bad is about to happen...

LR and GB, Check your Tgs.

Don't know if I said this already but I'm back at my other camp as a counselor now. Some of the guys installed a wireless router in the quad so I'll be able to get on at least a little bit at night or during free time. I will get on, though, to see the consequences of my actions.

How much do you fully understand regarding the Quebec Independance Movement?

The RL one or the E20 one? Because the RL independence movement started at this time in RL.

Parthini']Don't know if I said this already but I'm back at my other camp as a counselor now. Some of the guys installed a wireless router in the quad so I'll be able to get on at least a little bit at night or during free time. I will get on, though, to see the consequences of my actions.

really not getting a good feeling about this.

I'm betting they intervene in the Russia-CSPS war

I've found something interesting. Under Iran's demographics on wikipedia, the three main colors in the region are yellow, green, and blue. All three colors are dominant not only in Iran, but also in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and Pakistan (the yellow that I think signifies Baloch is in Iran and Afghanistan)

really not getting a good feeling about this.

I'm betting they intervene in the Russia-CSPS war

Hence the mushroom clouds.

Will start off very limited, how big it gets depends on Britain.

OH! OH! OH! OVER HERE! I call dibs on the Great Lakes Republic!

Will start off very limited, how big it gets depends on Britain.

Britain does not want anything to get "big", believe me. Seriously though, there are way too many nukes being thrown around now, in one year we've had hundreds of explosions, we'll soon overtake the number detonated in RL (including tests) which is estimated at 2000.

Perhaps time to calm it down a little, before there's no nations left?

LR, check tgs

Safehaven: Done and replied.

ok gentlemen, this is the big one

the next 24 hours will determine what will happen. As this is really complex, involves multiple players, and if it goes nuclear, which is a good bet, it will determine what nations are left when its over I intend to go slow.

Sorry, 1965 is delayed until further notice.

In November, the Germans enter the war with a massive air and airborne attack against the missile fields of the Scandic Union. The British may or may not be helping (yes for now).

This is a really complicated battle and the stakes are higher then anything else that has happened in this RP for the entire history of this RP.

Parthini and Lesser Ribenia forgot to target the Scandic subs, but I always assume military commanders are reasonably competent and so whatever they have that can get at them will do so. As the Scandics have 2 submarines, and 1 is always in the Baltic, the other has a 50% chance of being in port at the time of attack (replenishing food stuffs, replacing crews, minor repairs etc).

I have a target list from the Scandic Union, and have sent him a TG indicating the situation, which may modify what is or isn't attacked.

Due to real life issues, like I have a family who expects me to do things with them on Sundays (go figure..lol), I will not be able to do much for about 6 hours today. So you have about 5 hours from the time of this post if you are directly involved in this (Russian, French, German, Scandic and British players) to modify any instructions or give me some. I also have to check the order of battle for the Scandic Union and see what he has left.

Although if Safehaven could read through the posts and figure out what he lost and what he started with it would help me a lot.

so, I dont check things for 48 hours and the US dissolves. This is getting a little bit out of hand, dont we think? Any players we have that werent born yet that are American likely wont exist in this timeline (unless of course because your city was nuked in WW3 you already wont exist)--too many things have changed now. Which is slightly depressing.

If Australia wasnt so much safer than North America, I would be all over RPing Texas.

Anyways. Australia reluctantly recognizes all new North American nations (and India, in case my landing troops there didnt make it clear enough). I dont think I will be online when this all blows up tomorrow, so should Britain be attacked by nuclear weapons, the Australian Nuclear Deterent goes to Maximum Alert and fuels up. (dont worry--i dont have any targets picked, and unlike 80% of the players here, i wont actually use the things.) It's just sort of the principle for this sort of thing.

Just wondering; is Charles de Gaulle still alive? If so, I was thinking that he (if he's dead, perhaps some other famous French President) could give a "Vive le Québec libre!" speech, thus causing the whole collapse of Canada thing. I was thinking that the speech would cause a bigger frenzy in E20 than in RL, leading to Quebec leaving Canada, and with the loss of its second most populous and second largest province/territory, Canada is dealt a fatal blow, with other seperatist movements (spurred on by the collapse of the US below them, a country that is seen as more centralized than Canada by some) leading the charge.

I think I have him as Prime Minister and acting President of France right now (after the tragic disapearance of the former French President plane over Tibet and the inability of launching of a sucessful rescue mission to determine his fate), although I don't bother to name my politicians much, you could assume this to be the case.

Oh since he is in a middle of the war I don't think he is able to go to Canada and make a diplomatic Blunder just yet.

I think I have him as Prime Minister and acting President of France right now (after the tragic disapearance of the former French President plane over Tibet and the inability of launching of a sucessful rescue mission to determine his fate), although I don't bother to name my politicians much, you could assume this to be the case.

Oh since he is in a middle of the war I don't think he is able to go to Canada and make a diplomatic Blunder just yet.


I meant post-war :p

Also, if you think about it, if he does it in this timeline, he'll become a hero to Quebec, and also probably a figure in good light to the other Canadian seperatists.

Why? Both my parents were in Long Island at this time, and my grandfather had already immigated to the US long before this. SOOOO..... Doesn't ruin my stuff yet.

ANd yeah lots of seperatists. If I was really Imperial I might just conquer everyone cause you are all destroying yourselves. BUt I won't cause then I'd have issues with everyone else, so yeah whatever.

ah. Well, one of my parents is from Chicago and the other was from New Jersey. Since they met in Texas I think my odds are pretty slim.

Parthini']CIC-Middle East Rommel approaches the King of Jordan about the possibility of merging Jordan and what remains of Egyptian UAR (Sinai and Palestine).

He promises that King Hussein will be granted total control of both lands, and will be given substantial German Aid. Half of the remaining Egyptian army will join the new country and will be under Jordanian rule. The other half will become the new Imperial Arab Force under German command. It's job will be to maintain security in the region and will be funded by the Empire.

Rommel also promisses that Germany will sign a treaty guarenteeing the independance of the country. The country will also have joint control of the soon to be rebuilt Suez Canal, which will be run by German, British and the new countries personnel.

As NPC mod:

King Hussein II of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan accepts the offer and the new nation is formed. It is formally called the Hashemite Kingdom of al-Quds, meaning, the Holy Land, with the new Capital at Jerusalem. However, many Europeans call it Jerusalem for ease.

OOC: I'll figure out the division of the Army next week.

OOC: I know this is a little late but I've been gone for a week.

Jordan and Egypt aren't on good terms and Jordan lacks the economic ability (not to mention the resources) to rebuild the country anyway. I think an AF-UR merge would be much more likely. Sudan would also be likely to join after it's civil war is over since it has never been an independent country before and being in ruins after a bloody civil war isn't the best way to start out. On top of that, the Jordanians are cowardly bastards. :D Seriously, Kordo has the economic ability (aka lots of valuable oil) to rebuild the Nile Valley and the Nile has the agricultural ability to feed his desert federation.

OOC: I know this is a little late but I've been gone for a week.

Jordan and Egypt aren't on good terms and Jordan lacks the economic ability (not to mention the resources) to rebuild the country anyway. I think an AF-UR merge would be much more likely. Sudan would also be likely to join after it's civil war is over since it has never been an independent country before and being in ruins after a bloody civil war isn't the best way to start out. On top of that, the Jordanians are cowardly bastards. :D Seriously, Kordo has the economic ability (aka lots of valuable oil) to rebuild the Nile Valley and the Nile has the agricultural ability to feed his desert federation.

its likely other nations will have other ideas, but we shall see what happens in the war

OOC: I know this is a little late but I've been gone for a week.

Jordan and Egypt aren't on good terms and Jordan lacks the economic ability (not to mention the resources) to rebuild the country anyway. I think an AF-UR merge would be much more likely. Sudan would also be likely to join after it's civil war is over since it has never been an independent country before and being in ruins after a bloody civil war isn't the best way to start out. On top of that, the Jordanians are cowardly bastards. :D Seriously, Kordo has the economic ability (aka lots of valuable oil) to rebuild the Nile Valley and the Nile has the agricultural ability to feed his desert federation.

Uh, you do realise that this new country would be a German puppet, right? And Germany would give money to it.

Hey, my internet connecton completely shut off these last two days, and while its back now I do not know how much confidence I have in it so my time on here for the next few days might be sketchy.

the Jordanians are cowardly bastards. :D

Hey! I resent that! :p although I could be considered a part of the Adyghe Circassian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe) Community living there and thus not a pure Jordanian, but still I am of a Jordanian-Born Father and Grand-Parents and so a Jordanian.

Although I wonder if my father shall go to the States to study or will the Germans will be providing education? Or that I will be speaking German instead of English?

Uh, you do realise that this new country would be a German puppet, right? And Germany would give money to it.

I'm just saying, why go through all that trouble when the AF could be self-sufficient. Kordo is in a position to dominate the Middle East with Parth's help and adding the Nile Valley and Suez Canal would really help. But of course this is all Parth's call. I was just trying to "guide" him towards creating that Arab Super State.

I'm just saying, why go through all that trouble when the AF could be self-sufficient. Kordo is in a position to dominate the Middle East with Parth's help and adding the Nile Valley and Suez Canal would really help. But of course this is all Parth's call. I was just trying to "guide" him towards creating that Arab Super State.

Actually, Germany got screwed big time by the SU. The SU nuked Germany's port cities and the Ruhr industrial center, so Germany has had its industrial capacity torn to shreds, as well as something like 50% of its entire army and 90% of its airforce.

So Germany's in no position to be a "global power" for at least a few years.

Britain announces that once the war with the SU is over and peace restored its intentions are that the Suez Canal will be rebuilt using British engineers and nationalised by the British government (to pay for some of the rebuilding costs). The actual canal and a one mile area either side are to be considered sovereign British territory. The scheme will begin as soon as negotiations with the Egyptian interim government are completed and the sale of the land is complete.

OOC: Is Egypt still around as a player? Any idea of costs of this scheme?

From British thread. Britain wants to get the canal up and running again for trade and military purposes. A new canal will hopefully be a little larger than the last one to cope easily with 2 heavy carriers crossing from different sides and anticipating larger commercial ships in the near future. Britain would gladly maintain and police the canal and a very generous sale package will be offered to the interim Egyptian authorities to help with rebuilding.

And I twiddle my thumbs.

Actually, Germany got screwed big time by the SU. The SU nuked Germany's port cities and the Ruhr industrial center, so Germany has had its industrial capacity torn to shreds, as well as something like 50% of its entire army and 90% of its airforce.

So Germany's in no position to be a "global power" for at least a few years.

There is still the rest of the EEC, I'm sure one of us will be more than too happy to pick up where they left off, on their behalf of course.

Anyone want to get on Chatzy right now?

I'm on, but can't stay long. I have a few things to do and i'm getting quite sleepy already (9.30pm + heatwave = tired LR).

US intervenes to force an end of the war, before it stops being the US

Alright then. I was told to put my OOC stuff here. So I'll put it here. I've been told that GB wants me to quit, but I am not going to quit when I can at last do something. I have deleted a ton of other things I wanted to say to prevent from being seen as spurious. That's about it then.

The Arab Federation officially invites the surviving/intern government of the UR to a conference about the possibility of a merger.

(sorry I'm not sure where to post this cause I don't know if Koryan is still playing)

A few things:

1. I'm pretty sure that Poland would want at least some land out of the war. They're probably still resentful that Germany got the lion's share of the land and their border was pushed east.

2. What game are you playing? Is it operational art of war again? I'm always interested in getting wargames that are good.

A few things:

1. I'm pretty sure that Poland would want at least some land out of the war. They're probably still resentful that Germany got the lion's share of the land and their border was pushed east.

2. What game are you playing? Is it operational art of war again? I'm always interested in getting wargames that are good.

ooc
Poland would if the Scandic Union hadn't nuked all of the cities it was interested in

Used an board game called Third World War by Games Designers Workshop (now out of print and out of business sad to say) this time, its simpler and faster, and as complicated as all of this was, simple fast and accurate was called for. Naval action handled by a game called 6th Fleet, which has the right ships of the right era (late 60s, early 70s)

I have a large collection of games, which has come in handy for this RP

OOC: Hiya. I'd very much like to play as New England in E20, do you thin that'd be possible?
If so, what do I need to do to get started?

OOC: Hiya. I'd very much like to play as New England in E20, do you thin that'd be possible?
If so, what do I need to do to get started?

If Sharina lets you in, you'll need to have a good grasp of the economic system, knowledge of at least the last twenty years of E20 history and especially of the Twilight war and an News/Diplomacy thread.

If you are confused about any of those subjects feel free to ask.

OOC: Hiya. I'd very much like to play as New England in E20, do you thin that'd be possible?
If so, what do I need to do to get started?

I can personally vouch for Hallad- he'd be a mighty fine addition to the E20 community.

I'd be more than happy to have you play New England nation. However, Galveston Bay needs to sort out the war aftermath and sort out the general strengths of the new US nations (including the New England nation). But once he sorts it all out, you just need to set up a news thread (look at examples listed in links in 1st post of this thread) and then you're good to go.

Would it be Ok to start a thread to make the E20 timeline? We could divide the Regions and Time Periods

general plan for the next three weeks:

this week, sort out war damage and deal with immediate aftermath of the war

next week, post rules for tech level 8 and long term impact of the Twilight War and Crash of 64, so that people can prepare and do the fast forward. The game will resume effective January 1, 1970

I will be gone week of July 31 - Aug 4, but this gives everyone time to figure out their builds, make plans etc

August 7, 1970 begins.

Would it be Ok to start a thread to make the E20 timeline? We could divide the Regions and Time Periods

feel free as I can't do it right now.

Okie Dokie

Link:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11397443#post11397443

Okie Dokie

Link:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11397443#post11397443

most of the war threads have timelines in them by the way, as does the original US thread

we lost some timeline information when Vas deleted some stuff, but we hopefully can reconstruct it

old military thread has some timeline stuff to

Would anyone be interested to help?

So we are making the big jump forward, well 6 year jump forward. Anyways, I'll save all my questions for when you post the timeline and set up for the jump. ANd a New England. Interesting.

The Arab Federation officially invites the surviving/intern government of the UR to a conference about the possibility of a merger.

(sorry I'm not sure where to post this cause I don't know if Koryan is still playing)

OOC: I'm still here but I think Germany and Italy have control over Egypt right now. I'm all for the merger but I don't think I have a say in Egyptian politics anymore.

Why don't you become another country?

Posting immigration in individual nation threads (Mexico, Australia, FNS) and Nigeria you already know yours.

Ok, in 1970, my new name will be Estados Unidos de Centroamérica, as El Salvadore, Mexico, and Guatemala will be merging.

posting various lose ends today as I get to them

still working on loose ends. If you consult the rules in the military thread, it will help you figure out your casualties from nuclear bombardment.

I have already posted casualties for most people though.

If someone has some time, it would be great if they could figure out all the nations involved and post the casaulty figures, and then I could edit and add in whatever was missed.

Here's My Go at this tedious task, I hope it helps even if partially:

Greece: Not sure, but I will use this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11231663&postcount=21) (as initial OoB) and this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11264418&postcount=18) (Greek Army after first battle), giving losses:
-1 Light infantry div.
-2 Garison units
-1 Flak unit
-1 Mechanised div.
-1 Militia Unit
Air: 1 Su24, 1 C130 transport unit , 2 Su17 fighter units, and Mirage F1 fighter interceptor
Navy: 10 missile boat units, 16 modern destroyers, 10 modern SSKs
Feb 1 -18 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11268670&postcount=29): suffered heavy losses (?)
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade

Turkey:
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 Mig 25, the rest of its army.

Ukraine:
High Intensity War: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301168&postcount=204) 3 SSNs, 40 corvettes, 2 nuclear power AA cruisers, 1 Tu22
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 2 infantry corps, 2 mechanized infantry divisions, 1 Tu22 unit and 1 Drakan unit (as well as 1 pilot unit).
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 4 Mig 25, 3 Tu22, 7 pilots, navy destroyed, 3 Mirage V, 4 Mig 25, 1 Lansen, 1 Tu22, 4 pilots, 4 armored brigades
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388)1 attack helicopter unit, 1 Draken, 1 Mig 23, 1 Mig 25, 1 Tu22, 2 pilots, 12 armored brigades, 9 mechanized brigades, 1 infantry brigade, 2 flak units.
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 4 armored brigades, 14 mechanized brigades, 1 artillery group, 3 attack helicopter wings, 2 pilots, 6 Mig23s, 1 MiG 25, 2 Tu 22, 2 ETU95, 11 pilots
Ukraine and Southern Russia November 2 -9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392180&postcount=479) 12 Ukrainian armored brigades

Russia:
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 garrison unit, 1 air defense brigade, 1 Mig 25 unit, all production centers in Novgorod, Tiver and Pskov are considered damaged.
Ukraine Feb 19-21 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303483&postcount=226): 1 infantry corps, 1 garrison unit
CAR: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303579&postcount=227)1 Yak 35, 1 AH1, 1 pilot
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 1 Yak 25 unit, 2 armored brigades (in northwest), 1 infantry division
War in Russia March 10 - 31 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329788&postcount=302): Yak 28 unit and 1 pilot
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 5 flak brigades, 6 infantry brigades (5th infantry corps), 6 mechanized brigades (7th and 8th mechanized divisions), 3 infantry brigades (8th Garrison), 3 infantry brigades (5th Garrison), 3 F4E, 1 Kfir, 3 pilots, 2 air defense units, 3 mechanized brigades, 3 infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 F4E, 1 Yak 28, 1 pilot, 1 parachute brigade, 2 mountain brigades, 6 infantry brigades, 6 flak brigades,
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 1 F4E unit, 1 Kfir unit, 1 Su 22 unit, 2 pilots, 2 armored brigades, 2 infantry brigades, 2 flak brigades
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) 6 mechanized brigades, 2 armored brigades, 7 Kfir, 2 Su 22, 1 F105, 9 pilots,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 9 mechanized brigades

CAR:
CAR: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303579&postcount=227) 2 Mig 25, 1 Tu22, 1 helicopter gunship, 3 pilots
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 1 armored division, 1 mechanized division, 1 Mig 25 wing, 1 Mirage V wing, 1 pilot
War in Russia March 10 - 31 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329788&postcount=302): the last CAR mechanized division, its last fighter unit and a pilot unit, rest of its aircraft
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 3 F101B, 1 pilot, 1 HQ unit, 3 armored brigades,

France:
Aegean and Greece February 23 - March 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329493&postcount=299): Mirage V unit and 1 pilot
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 4 infantry brigades, 2 armored brigades, 1 Mirage V wing, 1 Vulcan Wing, 2 pilots
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 French Mirage V, 1 French CVAN sunk, 1 heavy carrier air wing, 1 marine brigade,
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 Mirage F1, 1 pilot, 1 armored brigade
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)1 Mirage F1, 2 Mirage V, 1 Vulcan, 2 pilots, 4 infantry brigades

Yugoslavia:
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 2 armored brigades, 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 8 infantry brigades, 2 Mirage F1, 2 pilots

UK:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202): 1 heavy carrier, 1 heavy carrier air wing (survivors of both form the other which is intact), 1 nuclear heavy cruiser, 1 B57 wing, 1 pilot unit
High Intensity War: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301168&postcount=204) 1 Nuclear Powered Escort Cruiser (HMS Dextrous), 2 ASW Frigates
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 SSN, 4 destroyers, sunk, 1 Arrow unit (60 aircraft) destroyed.
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 heavy air wing, 1 marine brigade, a pair of British destroyers and most of the British amphibious assault group is sunk
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 Harrier, 1 pilot, 3 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade,
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477)RAF Buccaneer wing, and F4G fighter wing,
Ukraine and Southern Russia November 2 -9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392180&postcount=479): 2 armored, 4 mechanized brigades

Poland:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202):1 SSN, 1 nuclear escort cruise
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 Mig 25 unit, 1 Tu 22 unit, 1 pilot unit
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 destroyer, 2 SSN sunk, 1 destroyer, 1 SSN damaged
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337):3 Tu22, 3 pilots
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Mirage V, 2 Draken, 1 Tu 22, 5 pilots, 2 infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 3 Draken, 1 attack helicopter unit, 2 pilots, 5 infantry brigades,
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 1 Draken unit, 1 attack helicopter unit, 1 pilot, 3 infantry brigades, 2 Mig 25, 1 Mig 23, 1 Tu22, 1Tu107, 1 ETU95, 2 pilots, 4 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462): 1 heavy carrier sunk, 1 destroyer sunk, 2 destroyers damaged, 1 infantry brigade
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 7 Mig 23, 4 pilots, 5 mechanized brigades
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) 2 armored brigades, 2 Mig 23, 2 Draken, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 7 pilots
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 5 armored brigades, 1 infantry brigade
Poland Nov 2 - 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392673&postcount=481)1 armored and 3 mechanized brigades

SU:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202): 2 Mig 25 wings, 2 SSN, 1 SSBN, 1 pilot unit
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 Tu16 unit, 2 Tu 22 units, 2 pilot units
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 heavy missile cruiser, 1AA cruiser, 2 destroyers sunk, 1 AA cruiser, 1 Mig 25 unit (60 aircraft), 1 Tu22 unit (30 aircraft), 2 pilot units lost
Aegean and Greece February 23 - March 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329493&postcount=299): Mirage V unit and 1 pilot
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 3 mountain infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Mirage V, 2 Draken, 1 Tu 16, 4 pilots, 7 armored brigades,
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 3 Draken, 1 Draken Wild Weasel unit, 1 attack helicopter unit, 3 pilots, 2 mechanized brigades
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)2 armored brigades, 3 mechanized brigades
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462):4 Mig 23, 2 Tu22, 1 Tu 95, 1 ETu95, 3 pilots, 1 heavy cruiser sunk, 1 SSN7 sunk, 1 AA cruiser sunk, 2 nuclear powered destroyers sunk, 2 destroyers sunk, 1 SSBN sunk in port, 1 SSBN sunk on patrol, 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 armored brigade, 2 Mig 23, 2 Draken, 1 Tu95,1 KC97, 6 pilots
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) Air power wiped out, Mechanised forces pounded, HQ's and artilary brigades lost, 4 Brigades, 1 garrison unit

Italy:
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 marine brigade, 1 heavy carrier air wings
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 mechanized brigades, 1 F4G


Pakistan:
South Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11351510&postcount=382): all airforce and airines, 1 pilot,
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 1 HQ unit, 18 armored brigades,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 mechanized brigades, 1 F4G

Germany:
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462): 9 Ta 202, 2 J202, 1 heavy carrier air wing, 4 pilots, 2 heavy cruisers sunk, 1 light carrier sunk, 7 destroyers sunk, 1 heavy carrier sunk, 10 missile boats destroyed, 4 mechanized brigades, 1 parachute brigade
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 4 Ta202, 4 pilots, 1 HQ, 3 flak brigades, 3 artillery brigades, 15 mechanized brigades, 12 armored brigades
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) Only 9,000 of the 40,000 German paratroopers and commandos who parachuted into the Scandic Union in their desperate mission have survived
Poland Nov 2 - 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392673&postcount=481) 10 armored brigades and a mechanized brigade


Netherlands:
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Belgium:
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 2 mechanized brigades,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Burgundy:
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)1 mechanized brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Rumania:
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 mechanized brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 armored brigades

FNS:
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 1 F4G, 2 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade, 2 airborne brigades

Canada and Flying Tigers:
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Flying Tiger F4G, 2 Canadian F4G, 1 Canadian pilot, 2 Flying Tiger pilots
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) Canadians 1 F4E
Flying Tigers 1 F4E
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) Candian 3 mechanized brigades, 2 F4G, 2 pilots, Flying Tigers: 2 F4G, 1 pilot
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) 4 parachute brigades

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/3242/oddjob.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/HaroldSakata007.jpg

When I establish a Facist China by 1970, I'll have my new leader be none other than this guy, with the hat and all. Cookies to anyone who can guess who this guy is. ;)

France, nice list, lot of work.


The Brits suffered another carrier damaged in the Twilight war at the end. The entire German Baltic fleet got wiped in the Pole offesive as well.


As for Greece, I do know that the entire navy and airforce(minus pilots) got destroyed on the first day of the war. Don't know about ground casualties tho.

This guy is in charge of the United States of Central America:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/HerveVillechaize.jpg

Yes good job for that.

Here's My Go at this tedious task, I hope it helps even if partially:

Greece: Not sure, but I will use this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11231663&postcount=21) (as initial OoB) and this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11264418&postcount=18) (Greek Army after first battle), giving losses:
-1 Light infantry div.
-2 Garison units
-1 Flak unit
-1 Mechanised div.
-1 Militia Unit
Air: 1 Su24, 1 C130 transport unit , 2 Su17 fighter units, and Mirage F1 fighter interceptor
Navy: 10 missile boat units, 16 modern destroyers, 10 modern SSKs
Feb 1 -18 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11268670&postcount=29): suffered heavy losses (?)
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade

Turkey:
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 Mig 25, the rest of its army.

Ukraine:
High Intensity War: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301168&postcount=204) 3 SSNs, 40 corvettes, 2 nuclear power AA cruisers, 1 Tu22
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 2 infantry corps, 2 mechanized infantry divisions, 1 Tu22 unit and 1 Drakan unit (as well as 1 pilot unit).
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 4 Mig 25, 3 Tu22, 7 pilots, navy destroyed, 3 Mirage V, 4 Mig 25, 1 Lansen, 1 Tu22, 4 pilots, 4 armored brigades
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388)1 attack helicopter unit, 1 Draken, 1 Mig 23, 1 Mig 25, 1 Tu22, 2 pilots, 12 armored brigades, 9 mechanized brigades, 1 infantry brigade, 2 flak units.
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 4 armored brigades, 14 mechanized brigades, 1 artillery group, 3 attack helicopter wings, 2 pilots, 6 Mig23s, 1 MiG 25, 2 Tu 22, 2 ETU95, 11 pilots
Ukraine and Southern Russia November 2 -9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392180&postcount=479) 12 Ukrainian armored brigades

Russia:
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 garrison unit, 1 air defense brigade, 1 Mig 25 unit, all production centers in Novgorod, Tiver and Pskov are considered damaged.
Ukraine Feb 19-21 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303483&postcount=226): 1 infantry corps, 1 garrison unit
CAR: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303579&postcount=227)1 Yak 35, 1 AH1, 1 pilot
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 1 Yak 25 unit, 2 armored brigades (in northwest), 1 infantry division
War in Russia March 10 - 31 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329788&postcount=302): Yak 28 unit and 1 pilot
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 5 flak brigades, 6 infantry brigades (5th infantry corps), 6 mechanized brigades (7th and 8th mechanized divisions), 3 infantry brigades (8th Garrison), 3 infantry brigades (5th Garrison), 3 F4E, 1 Kfir, 3 pilots, 2 air defense units, 3 mechanized brigades, 3 infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 F4E, 1 Yak 28, 1 pilot, 1 parachute brigade, 2 mountain brigades, 6 infantry brigades, 6 flak brigades,
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 1 F4E unit, 1 Kfir unit, 1 Su 22 unit, 2 pilots, 2 armored brigades, 2 infantry brigades, 2 flak brigades
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) 6 mechanized brigades, 2 armored brigades, 7 Kfir, 2 Su 22, 1 F105, 9 pilots,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 9 mechanized brigades

CAR:
CAR: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11303579&postcount=227) 2 Mig 25, 1 Tu22, 1 helicopter gunship, 3 pilots
Fighting in Russia February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329433&postcount=298): 1 armored division, 1 mechanized division, 1 Mig 25 wing, 1 Mirage V wing, 1 pilot
War in Russia March 10 - 31 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329788&postcount=302): the last CAR mechanized division, its last fighter unit and a pilot unit, rest of its aircraft
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 3 F101B, 1 pilot, 1 HQ unit, 3 armored brigades,

France:
Aegean and Greece February 23 - March 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329493&postcount=299): Mirage V unit and 1 pilot
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 4 infantry brigades, 2 armored brigades, 1 Mirage V wing, 1 Vulcan Wing, 2 pilots
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 French Mirage V, 1 French CVAN sunk, 1 heavy carrier air wing, 1 marine brigade,
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 Mirage F1, 1 pilot, 1 armored brigade
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)1 Mirage F1, 2 Mirage V, 1 Vulcan, 2 pilots, 4 infantry brigades

Yugoslavia:
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 2 armored brigades, 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 8 infantry brigades, 2 Mirage F1, 2 pilots

UK:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202): 1 heavy carrier, 1 heavy carrier air wing (survivors of both form the other which is intact), 1 nuclear heavy cruiser, 1 B57 wing, 1 pilot unit
High Intensity War: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301168&postcount=204) 1 Nuclear Powered Escort Cruiser (HMS Dextrous), 2 ASW Frigates
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 SSN, 4 destroyers, sunk, 1 Arrow unit (60 aircraft) destroyed.
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 heavy air wing, 1 marine brigade, a pair of British destroyers and most of the British amphibious assault group is sunk
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 Harrier, 1 pilot, 3 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade,
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477)RAF Buccaneer wing, and F4G fighter wing,
Ukraine and Southern Russia November 2 -9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392180&postcount=479): 2 armored, 4 mechanized brigades

Poland:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202):1 SSN, 1 nuclear escort cruise
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 Mig 25 unit, 1 Tu 22 unit, 1 pilot unit
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 destroyer, 2 SSN sunk, 1 destroyer, 1 SSN damaged
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337):3 Tu22, 3 pilots
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Mirage V, 2 Draken, 1 Tu 22, 5 pilots, 2 infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 3 Draken, 1 attack helicopter unit, 2 pilots, 5 infantry brigades,
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 1 Draken unit, 1 attack helicopter unit, 1 pilot, 3 infantry brigades, 2 Mig 25, 1 Mig 23, 1 Tu22, 1Tu107, 1 ETU95, 2 pilots, 4 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462): 1 heavy carrier sunk, 1 destroyer sunk, 2 destroyers damaged, 1 infantry brigade
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 7 Mig 23, 4 pilots, 5 mechanized brigades
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) 2 armored brigades, 2 Mig 23, 2 Draken, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 7 pilots
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 5 armored brigades, 1 infantry brigade
Poland Nov 2 - 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392673&postcount=481)1 armored and 3 mechanized brigades

SU:
Conventional War Part 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11300948&postcount=202): 2 Mig 25 wings, 2 SSN, 1 SSBN, 1 pilot unit
Fire in the East (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11301806&postcount=207): 1 Tu16 unit, 2 Tu 22 units, 2 pilot units
The Twilight War in Europe February 23 – March 2 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11328314&postcount=296): 1 heavy missile cruiser, 1AA cruiser, 2 destroyers sunk, 1 AA cruiser, 1 Mig 25 unit (60 aircraft), 1 Tu22 unit (30 aircraft), 2 pilot units lost
Aegean and Greece February 23 - March 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11329493&postcount=299): Mirage V unit and 1 pilot
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 3 mountain infantry brigades
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Mirage V, 2 Draken, 1 Tu 16, 4 pilots, 7 armored brigades,
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 3 Draken, 1 Draken Wild Weasel unit, 1 attack helicopter unit, 3 pilots, 2 mechanized brigades
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)2 armored brigades, 3 mechanized brigades
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462):4 Mig 23, 2 Tu22, 1 Tu 95, 1 ETu95, 3 pilots, 1 heavy cruiser sunk, 1 SSN7 sunk, 1 AA cruiser sunk, 2 nuclear powered destroyers sunk, 2 destroyers sunk, 1 SSBN sunk in port, 1 SSBN sunk on patrol, 1 infantry brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 armored brigade, 2 Mig 23, 2 Draken, 1 Tu95,1 KC97, 6 pilots
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) Air power wiped out, Mechanised forces pounded, HQ's and artilary brigades lost, 4 Brigades, 1 garrison unit

Italy:
April 1964 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11334313&postcount=337): 1 marine brigade, 1 heavy carrier air wings
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 mechanized brigades, 1 F4G


Pakistan:
South Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11351510&postcount=382): all airforce and airines, 1 pilot,
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 1 HQ unit, 18 armored brigades,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 mechanized brigades, 1 F4G

Germany:
Battle of Scandanavia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388005&postcount=462): 9 Ta 202, 2 J202, 1 heavy carrier air wing, 4 pilots, 2 heavy cruisers sunk, 1 light carrier sunk, 7 destroyers sunk, 1 heavy carrier sunk, 10 missile boats destroyed, 4 mechanized brigades, 1 parachute brigade
Poland November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388014&postcount=463): 4 Ta202, 4 pilots, 1 HQ, 3 flak brigades, 3 artillery brigades, 15 mechanized brigades, 12 armored brigades
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) Only 9,000 of the 40,000 German paratroopers and commandos who parachuted into the Scandic Union in their desperate mission have survived
Poland Nov 2 - 9 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392673&postcount=481) 10 armored brigades and a mechanized brigade


Netherlands:
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Belgium:
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405) 2 mechanized brigades,
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Burgundy:
Final Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11364767&postcount=405)1 mechanized brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 1 mechanized brigade, 1 F4G, 1 pilot

Rumania:
Battle for Moscow and Ukraine: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) 1 mechanized brigade
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464): 6 armored brigades

FNS:
Central Asia (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11362578&postcount=393) 1 F4G, 2 armored brigades, 1 mechanized brigade, 2 airborne brigades

Canada and Flying Tigers:
Battle for Moscow (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11350068&postcount=380): 4 Flying Tiger F4G, 2 Canadian F4G, 1 Canadian pilot, 2 Flying Tiger pilots
Battle for Moscow: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11357588&postcount=388) Canadians 1 F4E
Flying Tigers 1 F4E
Battle in the East November 1 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11388020&postcount=464) Candian 3 mechanized brigades, 2 F4G, 2 pilots, Flying Tigers: 2 F4G, 1 pilot
Twilight War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11392005&postcount=477) 4 parachute brigades


it does help a lot thanks

I got bored.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11410279

My god the Leader of Facist China is going to be the guy from James Bond?

FYI, I'll be out of touch until Monday. Vacation and all

My god the Leader of Facist China is going to be the guy from James Bond?

who, if memory serves, was a Korean no less

Sudanese Civil War (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11411972#post11411972)

The South wants aid (military or otherwise) from it's supporters (English speaking African nations) and will probably receive help from the Federated States of East Africa. The North wants aid from Arabic nations if the South gets aid.

who, if memory serves, was a Korean no less

Played by a Japanese American pro wrestler who demolished Johnny Carson's desk, no less. :D

ICly, though, the circle is complete. (Puts on Darth Vader voice changer) "Now I am the master."

I am disturbed now.

New England News and Factbook (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492909)

Not finished of course. but still.

I was wondering, who do I talk to in regards to the UIR? Hanastic?

I was wondering, who do I talk to in regards to the UIR? Hanastic?

Da

rules for food

see if they are reasonably understandable
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11413676&postcount=19

Assume the Green Revolution has happened (as it did historically in 50s and still goes on)

Ok. I forgot what the Green Revolution was though. And I understand the rules. It gives me some leeway, I can feed people. Yay.

Is it 1965 yet?

Is it 1965 yet?

you may start figuring your 65-69 builds and recovery efforts. I don't plan on posting anymoe economic stuff

Military stuff will be updated possibly this weekend, but definitely by monday

As of now, I will take the UIR as my actual nation, and handle Japan's builds

GB, can you get on Chatzy?

As of now, I will take the UIR as my actual nation, and handle Japan's builds

ok, but Japan may choose a different path

incidently, revised (yes I know I promised that was it, but it wasn't working out correctly) food rules posted

Leaving tommorrow for football camp, won't be back for another 3 days.

Leaving tommorrow for football camp, won't be back for another 3 days.

have fun?

Is India going to resist my takeover of Pakistan?

Also, what did Pakistan have as a military force and what does India have?

Is India going to resist my takeover of Pakistan?

Also, what did Pakistan have as a military force and what does India have?

no it won't

and as far as military forces I will have to figure them out

what about natural resources?

what about natural resources?

I have factored that into production

brand new UIR thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11425647#post11425647

GB, do you have time for Chatzy?

I have returned, and after talking with GB, it has been decided that I shall RP India. I shall start the thread as soon as I recieve the relevent facts/stats.

I have returned, and after talking with GB, it has been decided that I shall RP India. I shall start the thread as soon as I recieve the relevent facts/stats.

As the former India player, feel free to ask me questions about India's past, the political leaders that aren't dead, etc.

you might want to wait a few days until GB sorts out what military units and what resources went where

Probably my last post before I go on holiday for 10 days. I'll see you guys when I get back a week on Thursday...

British (and my NPC) builds for 65 and 66 are on the economics thread so I shouldn't be too far behin donce I get back.

See you.

Uhh. We still need to hammer out the peace treaty...

Britain will go along with the EEC treatywise. Though Britain would prefer fewer conditions set upon the SU and a greater focus on making the SU a future ally for a Europe-wide alliance.

EDIT: Some points given to Germany in 1966 and Britain has paid for the rebuilding of Port Said.

Alright so economic stuff, as for the peace treaty, not involved with that. And India kicked all my diplomats out for a slight, which means currently I have no relations with India. And all because I asked to see a little effort in keeping order. So just a note for the new India player.

OOC:

I need to know exactly the sum total of all aid sent to China in 1965.

I lost my internet connection last Thursday and haven't had it back until today (I went on vacation and didn't realize my friend's cottage didn't have a phone connection). And when I got back this morning and trying to catch up, I'm hearing stuff about "food rules" or something?

Could someone clear this up for me (and summarize what has happened in the past week)?

Chatzy me and I'll give you the grand sum of aid

Haneastic: Delete this post please, thank you.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11435292&postcount=2

Haneastic: Delete this post please, thank you.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11435292&postcount=2

kind of already done by the time you posted that

Gb: TG

Alright, I think I have a decent idea of whats going on, aside from exactly how damaged Russia is. However, I expect my time available to decrease soon, probably permanently. Thus, when we restart (which will be 1970 if I understand correctly, I'd rather play a mid-size nation. I'd recommend Middle Snu or Kordo, as their nations either have not (Middle Snu) or will not (Kordo) play a major role in E20. Pity New England was snatched up. Although, about that, New England, as it is in this RP, would be better served as 2 nations. New York, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New Jersey becoming a nation, and Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Maine becoming New England, with the Canadian Maritimes joining later.

Anyways, I'd like to find myself a decent sized western nation to become post war, possibly an American/Canadian successor state, or an EEC nation of decent size (Syria was too small to do anything, so 10+ million people would be nice)

Italy needs a player I believe.

Good recommendation.

Can I join E20?

Ask GB, but I suppose you can.

Short answer, yes.

actually, GB has been denying him for a while

Oh? Do you know why?

Oh? Do you know why?

I remember now...enough said.

I think I'll take up Kashgaria, guys. It seems like a nice little country and most of the huge, powerful countries around it aren't in the best condition to invade or anything. Heck, I could even become a major contributer to UN. Me as a peacekeeper... this will certainly be a change. :D

What's Kashigaria?

Whose going to be in charge of the Arab Federation? Or is that dream as dead as Nasser?

Whose going to be in charge of the Arab Federation? Or is that dream as dead as Nasser?

The Arab Federation is actually a nation right now made up of the majority of RL Saudi Arabia and the greater Bagdad area. As to the Arab Federation the org., perhaps it should be renamed the Arab Union or something like that.

What's Kashigaria?

Kashgaria is the little nation inbetween the CAR and China.

Whose going to be in charge of the Arab Federation? Or is that dream as dead as Nasser?

With Egypt out of the picture and Sudan falling apart, I have to pass the torch onto Kordo and the AF. He's already in a good position to build a powerful Pan-Arab state.

Ask GB, but I suppose you can.

lol. How how little you know... I dont see canadstein joining anytime real soon.

lol. How how little you know... I dont see canadstein joining anytime real soon.

Heh- he'll probably end up creating a space progam, then use his nation's communication satellites as weapons, bombing enemy cities with the falling debris from these satellites. ;)

I see, so it's that kind of thing. Alright I understand.

Say Sharina-in the wave of Chinese refugees that entered Korea, can I include some famous directors and actors?

In truth I don't see why not?

Can I join E20?

only if several players who vetoed you last time have changed their minds

For now, no

Say Sharina-in the wave of Chinese refugees that entered Korea, can I include some famous directors and actors?

Sure- assuming they haven't already died (either from radiation or starvation or disease).

Besides, once China gets back up and running, the refugees will be encouraged to return home, but they can stay in their new homelands (Korea, Australia, UIR, etc.) if they prefer.

As long as I get Oddjob. ;)

GB, TG for you

Sure- assuming they haven't already died (either from radiation or starvation or disease).

Besides, once China gets back up and running, the refugees will be encouraged to return home, but they can stay in their new homelands (Korea, Australia, UIR, etc.) if they prefer.

I'll assume they made it there alive. No worries, you'll get most of them back; after all, what's Chinese cinema without guys like Jet Li, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee? Do RP them as having survived the Twilight War; things would suck if they didn't.

This is why I made sure that only those wanting Filipino Citizienship came to my country. ANd by the way, when do you want that Light Division I have in China to continue being there? And the transport Units and amphibious unit.

ANd dude, not even nuclear war could kill Bruce Lee. Everyone knows that.

I'll assume they made it there alive. No worries, you'll get most of them back; after all, what's Chinese cinema without guys like Jet Li, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee? Do RP them as having survived the Twilight War; things would suck if they didn't.

No problem. I just need to sort stuff out before I can RP things out.

Jet Li was born in 1963, so his future's somewhat uncertain as a lot of young babies are vulnerable to radiation poisoning.

Bruce Lee probably will either stay in China or return to China during the "refugee return", considering he was a Nationalist and supported nationalism, as well as the fact that my new Chinese government will be strongly nationalist.

Jackie Chan would be only 10 years old during the Twilight War, and again, young children are suspect to radiation poisoning. Quite a number of other Chinese actors, martial arts stars, etc. are either babies, young kids, or have yet to be born as of 1964 / 1965.

No problem. I just need to sort stuff out before I can RP things out.

Jet Li was born in 1963, so his future's somewhat uncertain as a lot of young babies are vulnerable to radiation poisoning.

Bruce Lee probably will either stay in China or return to China during the "refugee return", considering he was a Nationalist and supported nationalism, as well as the fact that my new Chinese government will be strongly nationalist.

Jackie Chan would be only 10 years old during the Twilight War, and again, young children are suspect to radiation poisoning. Quite a number of other Chinese actors, martial arts stars, etc. are either babies, young kids, or have yet to be born as of 1964 / 1965.

Hmmm...at the very least, I could probably have Jet Li be a beneficiary of the Korean healthcare system; it wouldn't be too unreasonable to see his family fleeing to Korea.

Forgive me if I'm being a little nuts, but hey.

...my new Chinese government will be strongly nationalist.

Perhaps the New Chinese Nationalist movement could be influenced by Indira Ghandi's Little Green Book (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11435500&postcount=3)... Sure it focuses' on India and Hindu Nationalism (at least what Ghandi considers "proper" Hindu Nationalism), but it could influence any nationalist movement and be rewritten in regards to Confucian Nationalism rather then Hindu Nationalism...

You really want Jet Li. lol. OH well I'll stick with little known Filipino actors then. If there are any? Any wrestling fans will be disappointed, the ROck won't be born. His father is Canadian and his mother's father is from Somoa. Very little likelyhood that he'd move to the US in this reality.

You really want Jet Li. lol. OH well I'll stick with little known Filipino actors then. If there are any? Any wrestling fans will be disappointed, the ROck won't be born. His father is Canadian and his mother's father is from Somoa. Very little likelyhood that he'd move to the US in this reality.

except both British Columbia and Samoa are part of the nation of Columbia at this time