NationStates Jolt Archive

Cheers GB, I think that'll work out fine for all of us.

The small wars are really easy to game out with just a few rolls at a time, it's just the large ones that take the time.

Thanks again.

Since I don't think Russia has a newsthread, I'm putting this here.

IC:

Russia and Syria have signed an official non-aggression pact today. Both of our nations have faced similar challenges in rebuilding from the world war, and both face the same obstacles in the success of democracy, both internal and external. Syria looks forward to cooperating with Russia in the future.

Wouldn't it need work in a way that all of the Arab states would benefit while keeping some form of individual identity rather than having only a few megastates which would end up falling apart... I do except that some states may have to be more stable with the help of other nations as well as the nations themselves within reason. The Kingdom will also support the UN and other agencies as well...

So who exactly would be in charge of handling intell operations in the Middle East now that LR is gone for now?

So who exactly would be in charge of handling intell operations in the Middle East now that LR is gone for now?

probably should be Parthini as the backup

probably should be Parthini as the backup

Erm... normally, I wouldn't deny such a thing, but with the current situation with the SU, I am questioning my own ability to be totally objective with that, not to mention the NPCs.

That saying, would someone else please take the duty of the reaction of the European and Arabian NPCs and the Intel operations for Arabia and Europe?

The other areas of the world, since I'm not busy trying to wrestle control from Scandinavia, I can do. I just am doubting my objectivity in areas that matter a lot to me :p

I can do it, and if anyone doubts my objectivity formally, I can show thought processes behind each decision.

OOC: I don't care who does it as long as someone is because I have a few things I want to get done.

IC: With the new German ultimatum and gaurantee of war the military is mobilizing in Scandinavia and preparing for a German invasion. Scandinavia's allies, mainly the Ukraine and Poland, are asked to follow suite.

OOC: I'm fine with that. It may be wise to at least lay down somewhat of a basic thought process, and could even incorporate in IC.

IC:The Entire Reichswehr is mobilized and the Luftwaffe Reserve is pulled up. Landswehr units from the South are being mobilized and trained in Mountain tactics. The Imperial Guard is readied and the Ar-232s are fired up.

However, the Reichstag feels otherwise.

A condemnation of the warmongering Generals is passed and the Kaiser is ordered to halt operations. He refuses and is ordered under arrest. Chancellor Von Schuschnigg and Minister Bruning resign in protest.

An apology is sent to the Scandinavian government while the Landswehr is ordered down which it doesn't.

The next day riots break out in Hamburg, Berlin and across the Rhineland and at least some demonstrations are held in every other city. Police units are hit the hardest, but many join in. The riots, rather than looting, merely begin to attack government buildings, arresting many Reichstag appointed mayors.

That next night, during the Emergency Meeting, the Imperial Guard storms the Reichstag. The Kaiser orders all members of the Reichstag, as well as the Chancellor ,Cheif of Staff and the Minsters of Foreign Affairs and Domestic Affairs, to be placed under arrest. The Kaiser then declares the Empire to be under a State of Emergency and an Emergency Cabinet is declared. Chancellor Von Schuschnigg is returned to his position as is Domestic Minister Bruning. Ex-Chancellor Rommel is made Minister of Foreign Affairs and Ex-Luftwaffe Commander Albert Kesselring is made Chief of Staff. He is replaced by Generaloberst Manfred von Richtoven.

Civilian Governments are replaced with Generals and a loose Martial Law is declared. All residents of Scandic descent are being detained for examining.

A note is sent to Scandinavia reaffirming the German People's resolve. They will fight if comes the need.

So all SU-Germany related stuff goes to Artista and everything else goes to Parth for now?

Also, I have a long term (at least 5 years before ready mission) I'd like to start soon. Should I wait till LR gets beack?

Intel Im willing to do, but not conflict. So send your operations to me in detail, or you can discuss them with me on AIM/MSN.

TIME needs to slow down at this point, I suggest 1 week every real day for a bit to see how things develop in Northern Europe.

WEEK 1 STARTING TOMORROW, which would be May 1, 1955

I should probably handle European and Caribbean NPC reaction, Malkyer the African ones, and Parthini the Asian NPCs (except the Philippines, which will almost certainly follow the US lead)

The Turks and Central Asians will be pro Scandic Union (due to lots of aid over the years), the NPC Arabs and Kurds will want to remain out of it if at all possible although Oman will take the opportunity if it presents itself to get the Europeans out of Saudi Arabia. The US will definitely react to secure the Saudi oil fields, massively if required.

European reaction will depend on who starts the fighting, but Italy, Burgundy, and the Netherlands remember very well the Union invasions of their territory which featured lots of Germans, and the Poles and Ukranians do have a military alliance with the Scandic Union. Other nations are either PC nations or will sit out the war on the sidelines unless directly attacked. Portugal will actually favor the Scandics though, blaming the UN for stealing their colonies and viewing the Scandics as the injured party in this case.

Germany and Scandic Union... I need an email indicating deployment of forces, the general warplan, and use a real map, not the World in Flames map.

my email will be provided to your Parthini by TG, and again to you Safehaven2 if you need it

Well, I think Portugal has bigger issues, considering it is in Anarchy. That's how I roleplayed it at least...

Belgium and Burgundy should know better. They are in my economic pact and we share a lot. The new military government looks pretty similar to the old one, it just has authoritarian power...

BTW, Arabia should be starting its Constitution writing.

Oh, and can we move the date up to something like May 15? I don't want to have to wait a week...

I'd imagine Middle Eastern nations could be swayed with large enough stacks of cash, although I think both sides have more pressing things to spend on.

PLO Update
Guerrilla warfare erupts in the streets of Palestine between Palestinian troops and PLO supporters. Despite the army’s obvious advantage, the PLO’s homemade grenades and cheap firearms seem to overpower the soldiers as they are forced back nearly three blocks before the Egyptian Air Force arrives. Jet fighters blast apart the PLO crowd and destroy multiple surrounding buildings before zooming back to the Nile Valley. With the extreme damage and nearly ¼ of the rioters dead or severely wounded, the Palestinian soldiers take the upper hand and manage to arrest nearly 200 rioters. Palestinian President Shukeiri immediately challenged Egypt’s authority to attack Palestinian civilian targets, citing that he only requested slight air support, not an entire street of rubble and dead bodies. President Nassar simply replied that the only way to stop terrorists is to show them true terror. The total death toll of the day is estimated at over 1,400 dead and over a thousand injured. In addition, nearly fifteen million dollars of damage resulting from PLO grenades and the Egyptian air strike has been filed, with an addition two million estimated for repairing the demolished road and damaged sewer system below.

Arafat, self-appointed leader of the PLO, broadcasted a live message to the people of Palestine the next afternoon, appearing on three different television stations and six radio stations. In his message, Arafat threatened to destroy the corrupt Palestinian government without mercy if they attacked PLO protesters once again and this time even threatened Egypt, saying that the British and French had corrupted them and “westernized” the government. Egyptian president Nassar, in his public announcement that afternoon, told his people that if the PLO even tried to attack Egypt, they would be crushed instantly.

OOC: So did the Arabians actually get their democracy or did Germany/US's rashidis take power?

OOC: I think the Arabian gov't is forming right now. Also, Colombia's hosting a conference Syria intiated to meet with PLO leaders.

Parthini']Well, I think Portugal has bigger issues, considering it is in Anarchy. That's how I roleplayed it at least...

Belgium and Burgundy should know better. They are in my economic pact and we share a lot. The new military government looks pretty similar to the old one, it just has authoritarian power...

BTW, Arabia should be starting its Constitution writing.

Oh, and can we move the date up to something like May 15? I don't want to have to wait a week...

since the Germans are busy having a revolution, I would suspect that they are going to be more then a little nervous

I am a little confused myself regarding Saudi Arabia.... I need to know if the Scandic Union pulled its troops out, and whether the UN resolution passed.

Sharina, make a ruling on the UN Resolution please

By the way, the US isn't supporting the Rashidis anymore. Its supporting the Omanis

Britain has renounced the Treaty of Daresalaam (see my news thread) and declares that it will remain neutral in any wars that may soon take place in Europe.

Britain will support the US in pleading for peace, and the Omanis in their peacekeeping duties in the Middle East.

Britain informs all non-neutral nations in this coming war that if any belligrant naval vessel, aircraft, missile or soldier is discovered within British territory without explicit permission from the Minister for Defence then it will be fired upon as an enemy of the Crown or else taken captive for the duration of the conflict. The Royal Navy and RAF will make extensive patrols of British territroial waters and land alongside ground forces to ensure that Britain's borders are not compromised. Particular attention is paid to the North Sea and English channel, including the useage of nuclear powered and armed submarines in a defensive stance.

GB, I sent the orders and deployments, I sent them by TG to just in case.

The Scandic Union is politely informing all german citizens in Scandinavia that they must leave. Transportation to Britian will be provided, and enough money will be given to purchase a ticket home. Scandinavia is also demanding the return of the thousands of Scandic tourists and bussinesmen who are being held hostage by the German government.

The United Islamic Republic remains neutral (for now at least). The Army and Aifroce is alerted however to intercept any intruder. Citizens in Germany and the SU are advised to leave, but no evacuation is ordered (the Government thinks the proclamation of neutrality is enough protection).

In light of the apparent conflict, the Travel and Tourism Department has placed a travel ban (no flights to the nation) on the SU, beginning June 1st. On June 1st, travel advisories (recommending not to go unless urgent) will be enacted for the following countries:

Germany
Portugal
Russia
Poland
Ukraine
Turkey
Central Asian Republic
Greece


Due to events in or involving those nations. Advisories may be upgraded to bans (and vice versa) at any time. People are advised to reschedule vacations to nations like France, Oman, and China.

The French government announces that it sympethises greatly with the German people and their representatives. We hope that hostillities may reach a swift end and not escelate for the sake of everyone both involved and non-involved.

The French Armed forces are to be put and remain on high alert for the time being.

The French governmment also gives its support for an independant Arabian Government in Nejd -Saudi Arabia- free from forign influence of any kind.

German / Scandic Crisis 1955
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=478550

for today, events are May 1 -8. Because this could turn into a nuclear crisis this needs to go slow, so 1 real life day equals 1 game week seems reasonable

For those who care, Syria is adding a second house to its system. Its elections this June will reflect the current situation.

The King's stance of neutrality in recent events has drawn the ire of some conservatives, including many who tradtionally supported the King in the Royal Party. However, the Federalist party, taking on a pro-modernization stance, has put full support behind the King, as have many centrist Royals and Congressionals.

(ooc: this is like Sharon abandoning Likud, if Likud was named the Ariel Sharon party)

I apologize for not posting the last couple of days...There was a bad storm a couple of days ago and I lost my internet connection, plus my computer was literally fried. I'm sending this from my parents' computer, and I doubt I'll be able to do much until I get a new one.

South Africa should probably be a temporary NPC until I get a new computer; if that is going to be a long time I'll let you guys know so that you can open it up to a new player. If anything major happens (i.e. a war), South Africa will side with the Commonwealth.

I'll be back eventually, though.

The Bulgarian Embassies of the Scandic Union, Russia, Poland, Germany, Portugal, Greece, Turkey and the embassies of the Middle Eastern nations and Central Asia are now being placed on high alert due to the Germany-Scandia Affair...

I'd like a simple clarification on what lets you build nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, and whether or not the Arab League is going to end up spending lots of points on something we dont need to.

According to the military thread, 24 points per year over three years gives nuclear capability. However, I have also been told 24 points/yearX3 years for fission, 24 points/yearX3 years for fiuel separation, and 24 points for reactor technology, minus 12 points from one of those years.

Nuclear fuelling for subs, however, requires the 24 pts/yr*3 plus 24pts/yr*2 for fuelling technology.

Seems to me that making a reactor small enough to fit on a sub should be more expensive than making one that has no size restrictions, not 36 points cheaper. So could someone explain quite how much each one should cost?

The Arab League will, as of 1956, finished 4 years of research, what will that enable us to do?

Now I'm even more confused.

I know that nuclear research is 72 points in total to be spent over 3 years.

Then nuclear fueling = 48 points (I think?) over 1 or 2 years.

There's no need to spend 72 points on one aspect of nuclear tech, as it is supposed to encompass ALL "first stage" nuclear research / technologies with that 72 points.

Unless I'm missing something huge here?

research costs are different from infrastructure costs Parthini... 72 points gets you the technology. The other 48 points gets you the infrastructure needed for uranium and plutonium seperation.

At this point you have a basic reactor and 20 kiloton bomb technology.

More research gets you small reactors for ships etc, and large commerical reactors for power plants. A seperate research track takes you to H bombs.

Once you have those, a cost of 6 points a year provides the research to improve the technology (safer and smaller reactors, more flexible H bombs)

Nuclear technology isn't cheap and is heavily subsidized, unlike coal and oil technology.

Small size reactors are difficult and take years to develop, as the cooling system is the tricky part.

research costs are different from infrastructure costs Parthini... 72 points gets you the technology. The other 48 points gets you the infrastructure needed for uranium and plutonium seperation.

At this point you have a basic reactor and 20 kiloton bomb technology.

More research gets you small reactors for ships etc, and large commerical reactors for power plants. A seperate research track takes you to H bombs.

Once you have those, a cost of 6 points a year provides the research to improve the technology (safer and smaller reactors, more flexible H bombs)

Nuclear technology isn't cheap and is heavily subsidized, unlike coal and oil technology.

Small size reactors are difficult and take years to develop, as the cooling system is the tricky part.


Whoa! Where'd I come into this discussion?

LR is doing all the spending for the research, etc. I just throw him points...

research costs are different from infrastructure costs Parthini... 72 points gets you the technology. The other 48 points gets you the infrastructure needed for uranium and plutonium seperation.

At this point you have a basic reactor and 20 kiloton bomb technology.

More research gets you small reactors for ships etc, and large commerical reactors for power plants. A seperate research track takes you to H bombs.

Once you have those, a cost of 6 points a year provides the research to improve the technology (safer and smaller reactors, more flexible H bombs)

Nuclear technology isn't cheap and is heavily subsidized, unlike coal and oil technology.

Small size reactors are difficult and take years to develop, as the cooling system is the tricky part.
So, the "tech tree" for those of us who play too many video games is the following:
1. Nuclear Technology (72 pts) (Arab League finished)
2. Fuel Separation Technology (48 pts) (Arab League 1/2)-->20 kt. bombs, basic reactors
3A. Large Reactor technology (24/48?) ---> power plants
3B. Small Reactor Technology (48) ----> nuclear powered ships
3C. H-Bomb tech (6 per year)

Or are 3A and 3B combined? Am I the only one that's confused, because it may just be me misreading something.


=El Edito=

If the SU and Germany made peace, should next week continue to be 1955, since its only March? I know I have elections to do for the new house, and the whole PLO conference needs to begin.

So, the "tech tree" for those of us who play too many video games is the following:
1. Nuclear Technology (72 pts) (Arab League finished)
2. Fuel Separation Technology (48 pts) (Arab League 1/2)-->20 kt. bombs, basic reactors
3A. Large Reactor technology (24/48?) ---> power plants
3B. Small Reactor Technology (48) ----> nuclear powered ships
3C. H-Bomb tech (6 per year)

Or are 3A and 3B combined? Am I the only one that's confused, because it may just be me misreading something.


=El Edito=

If the SU and Germany made peace, should next week continue to be 1955, since its only March? I know I have elections to do for the new house, and the whole PLO conference needs to begin.


research for 3A also gets you 3B. Further spending on nuclear power (6 points a year) gradually gets you even more efficient and safer reactors.

If the crisis in northern Europe is resolved, we can just finish out the year I think.

Guys, I hate to say this....for the next five weeks, I'll be occupied with *drumroll* driver's ed. *end drumroll* So, my RPing will be miniscule, at best. Except on Fridays and weekends...

Guys, I hate to say this....for the next five weeks, I'll be occupied with *drumroll* driver's ed. *end drumroll* So, my RPing will be miniscule, at best. Except on Fridays and weekends...

chuckle... good luck

Incidently, as apparently war is not going to break out, go ahead and start 1956 on schedule

so any events of '55 (cough cough space flights) will just be posted later?

January 1956

The Egyptian and Palestinian governments have been thrown into a state of near chaos after yet another PLO demonstration and an attempted double coup. It started with a PLO demonstration in Egyptian-controlled Gaza, which was taken from Palestine after the Arab-Palestinian War and never returned, despite promises by Nassar. As the marchers neared the Gaza Strip border, Egyptian tanks and artillery opened fire upon the protestors, killing an estimated 200 people and wounding 120 more. The shelling accidentally set fire to a Palestinian suburb, leaving twelve families homeless. The Palestinian President demanded that Nassar apologize for the strike and arrest the general responsible. Nassar refused and threatened to use any force necessary to prevent a PLO demonstration in Egypt.

The PLO struck back the following week in an unexpected strike at the leaders of both governments. Palestinian President Ahmad Shukeiri, a maid, and two security guards were killed Monday after a bomb exploded in Skukeiri's office. The bomb was believed to have been planted by the maid, although her identity and reasons for the accusation have yet to be released. The next day, PLO supporters and anti-Nassarists teamed up in an attempted coup of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser. The coup was led by Egyptian Prime Minister Anwar Sadat, a left-wingist and opponent of Nassarism. President Nassar was arrested by his own security guards but was rescued by Egyptian forces less than an hour later. Sadat, believing Nassar to be dead, had proclaimed himself leader of Egypt and begun an extermination of his political opponents. During the purge, Sadat was stabbed by an unknown Egyptian civilian and bled to death after doctors refused to help him at the nearest hospital. The extermination turned against rebel forces that night as Nassar gave a public announcement, confirming his survival and control over the government. Nearly 150 expected rebels have been executed already and connections to the PLO were quickly made, although whether any evidence has actually been found is debatable. None-the-less, these two days of chaos quickly proved that the PLO isn’t as unorganized and weak as many thought and has many allies within the Republics.

OOC: This may not seem important to you guys but think about what will happen when the UR gets nukes in a few years. :(

ooc
I am sick today, so I will post US and various NPCs budgets and news tomorrow

Shall I make the PLO talks in Bogota thread?

On the topic of terrorism, having the Middle East modernizing as it is could be great, if it prevents terrorism from spreading, but if it gets bad, then we have Al Qaeda in space (sounds like a bad sci-fi movie doesn't it) :D

January 1956

The Egyptian and Palestinian governments have been thrown into a state of near chaos after yet another PLO demonstration and an attempted double coup. It started with a PLO demonstration in Egyptian-controlled Gaza, which was taken from Palestine after the Arab-Palestinian War and never returned, despite promises by Nassar. As the marchers neared the Gaza Strip border, Egyptian tanks and artillery opened fire upon the protestors, killing an estimated 200 people and wounding 120 more. The shelling accidentally set fire to a Palestinian suburb, leaving twelve families homeless. The Palestinian President demanded that Nassar apologize for the strike and arrest the general responsible. Nassar refused and threatened to use any force necessary to prevent a PLO demonstration in Egypt.

The PLO struck back the following week in an unexpected strike at the leaders of both governments. Palestinian President Ahmad Shukeiri, a maid, and two security guards were killed Monday after a bomb exploded in Skukeiri's office. The bomb was believed to have been planted by the maid, although her identity and reasons for the accusation have yet to be released. The next day, PLO supporters and anti-Nassarists teamed up in an attempted coup of Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser. The coup was led by Egyptian Prime Minister Anwar Sadat, a left-wingist and opponent of Nassarism. President Nassar was arrested by his own security guards but was rescued by Egyptian forces less than an hour later. Sadat, believing Nassar to be dead, had proclaimed himself leader of Egypt and begun an extermination of his political opponents. During the purge, Sadat was stabbed by an unknown Egyptian civilian and bled to death after doctors refused to help him at the nearest hospital. The extermination turned against rebel forces that night as Nassar gave a public announcement, confirming his survival and control over the government. Nearly 150 expected rebels have been executed already and connections to the PLO were quickly made, although whether any evidence has actually been found is debatable. None-the-less, these two days of chaos quickly proved that the PLO isn’t as unorganized and weak as many thought and has many allies within the Republics.

OOC: This may not seem important to you guys but think about what will happen when the UR gets nukes in a few years. :(


The German Empire throws its full support behind the rightful government of Nasser and pledges any support deemed necissary by the United Republics.

The Heer also inquires about the possibility of the base in the Negev Desert.

Syria has decided to allow the base planned previously, and asks if Germany has decided on a payment plan (either 3 points 1956, .5 each year after, or 1 point per year flat rate)

Germany has agreed to pay a flat rate of 3 points next year. At the end of that year, the proper soldiers will be sent. The Heer also thanks Syria for its cooperation.

On the topic of terrorism, having the Middle East modernizing as it is could be great, if it prevents terrorism from spreading, but if it gets bad, then we have Al Qaeda in space (sounds like a bad sci-fi movie doesn't it)

OOC: Although modernization and democracy reduce terrorism, in areas where nationalism and foreign involvement is high, terrorism and unrest can always be found. The Middle East is currently the battle grounds between Arab Socialism and Monarchies/Theocracies, isolationists and pan-Arabists, and then of-course all the tension caused by all the recent wars. These issues were just suppressed in RL due to the whole Arab-Israeli Conflict.

Parthini']The Heer also inquires about the possibility of the base in the Negev Desert.

Since the crisis is over, you may begin base construction. I won't charge any rent or anything but you might have to ask about the costs for building/maintaining a long-distance base.

W00tage. I'll send a few things over next year.

Speaking of which... have the mods determined anything about maintaining overseas bases?

Parthini']W00tage. I'll send a few things over next year.

Speaking of which... have the mods determined anything about maintaining overseas bases?

no, and I am hoping I can get away without that headache. Not real excited about figuring out ammunition costs either.

Just figure its part of the maintenance costs of the units stationed there

Abbassia and LR:

Do you guys want to make an ESA/EEC thread so that we won't have to post stuff everywhere? Also, it would be nice to have a history of ESA events and shared technology and satellite systems.

Speaking of which... which satellite systems can we share?

OOC: Although modernization and democracy reduce terrorism, in areas where nationalism and foreign involvement is high, terrorism and unrest can always be found. The Middle East is currently the battle grounds between Arab Socialism and Monarchies/Theocracies, isolationists and pan-Arabists, and then of-course all the tension caused by all the recent wars. These issues were just suppressed in RL due to the whole Arab-Israeli Conflict.

True, although one might argue that without the Arab-Israeli conflict, terrorism would have been much lower. However, someone like Sadaam, completely ignoring all the social codes could provoke a lot of terrorism. Leaders that work within the frameworks provided by Islam, slowly turning the countries towards liberalization and modernization, like some RL states have, could do very well. In Foriegn Policy's 2006 Failed States Index (based on stability and legitimacy of government) Oman got the same rating as the US, France, and many Western countries. Other Gulf states did well as well. They are a good model for the stable middle eastern state, like Japan or South Korea would be for Asia.

INTERNAL POLITICAL EVENTS

RUSSIA
The Russian Democratic and left wing parties begin organising large political rallies in the big cities to encourage the government to switch from it's current nationalistic tendencies and to pursue a more deomocratic method of ruling.

The KGB discovers that vast amounts of funding are being provided to the pro-democratic parties by some outside source, but have no idea what the source of this is due to a complex system of bank transfers from Swiss accounts.

GERMANY
Rumblings of discontent are heard in the Bavarian and Austrian provinces, regarding their need for independence, the militarial takeover of these nations is focussed on as is the recent "coup" in Germany proper. These parties are recieveing large quantities of German currency from an unknown source, but the German intelligence service is attempting to determine the source.

INDIA/PAKISTAN
The Hindu population is getting increasingly restless at the mixed religion government and some groups are considering splitting off from the nation to form their own, but would probably not consider doing so without a foriegn backer. The Indian Intel service knows of these meetings but has so far not interfered and are still gathering data.

OOC: Based on funds received from other governments, secretly concealed in their budget. I have rolled for each intel service, added a modifier for their efficiency depending on age and experience and written an appropriate result, shown above. I should point out that noone is on the verge of a civil war (yet), just that some factions are getting a little restless as happens under all governments.

If anyone has any other such funding then please TG me and i'll see what happens.

Do you guys want to make an ESA/EEC thread so that we won't have to post stuff everywhere? Also, it would be nice to have a history of ESA events and shared technology and satellite systems.

Speaking of which... which satellite systems can we share?

I'd be grateful if either you or Abassia would do that, I have too many threads to keep track of already! Cheers

As to satellites, any nation in the ESA is capable of sending them up, but they are required to pay for their own network as the cost is per country serviced.

INDIA/PAKISTAN
The Hindu population is getting increasingly restless at the mixed religion government and some groups are considering splitting off from the nation to form their own, but would probably not consider doing so without a foriegn backer. The Indian Intel service knows of these meetings but has so far not interfered and are still gathering data.

OOC: Based on funds received from other governments, secretly concealed in their budget. I have rolled for each intel service, added a modifier for their efficiency depending on age and experience and written an appropriate result, shown above. I should point out that noone is on the verge of a civil war (yet), just that some factions are getting a little restless as happens under all governments.

If anyone has any other such funding then please TG me and i'll see what happens.

OOC: Damn Americans!

How can I counter this? The Socialists have recently been voted into power, so I'm going to be spending more money on Social Services. A Hindu is now president. What else can I do!?!

Lesser Ribenia, check your TG's.

EDIT: Double post.

OOC: Damn Americans!

How can I counter this? The Socialists have recently been voted into power, so I'm going to be spending more money on Social Services. A Hindu is now president. What else can I do!?!

ooc
the Americans of course would deny any involvement in the local affairs of the sub continent of India

Lesser Ribenia, check your TG's.

Done and replied.

ooc
the Americans of course would deny any involvement in the local affairs of the sub continent of India

OOC:

Of course you would, I'm not stupid. I'm just trying to figure out how to thwart your plans.

Of course, you win anyhoo, since I end up spending more of my budget on pleasing the rebellious Hindu's...

Bogota
For the first time in the world, international Rugby players will be paid a salary. The Federation of South American Nations is the first team to be subsidized by the Government, with the majority of players earning close to $35,000USD a year, with upper end player sitting around $55,000USD. Rugby has become incredibly popular in the south-western hemisphere.

OOC: Ummm... wtf? Bavaria joined Germany post-Franco Prussian, and Austria voted to join the Empire less than a decade ago. Anywho...

IC: The Reichstag, after recieving reports of trouble in the South, sends polls south to determine the cause of grief in Bavaria and Austria.

OOC2: Assume the Reichstag has already been given its power and all. I'll do that official stuff when I have more time.

Also, why would they be mad (other than the coup thing)? The Chancellor is Austrian! What do they want!

OOC: It's not really a mass movement, more of just a few grumpy old men remembering the great Autro-Hungary of the past and concerned by the recent destability of the German political system. Being motivated to spread their ideals by a bit of good old fashioned cash. I wouldn't really worry too much about it. I doubt it'd get much further than that.

a major suggestion regarding energy and pollution rules

see here

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10850900&postcount=647

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479889

PLO talks

Syria, Egypt, and the FNS have representatives, and Arafat showed up as well. European nations (mainly the UK and France historically, although Germany and the US, yes I know it isnt European, could come) with interests in the region were invited, as were other Arab nations, so you could feel free to but in if you see the need.

New EEC Thread Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10856946)

When will the Oil Shock end?

Parthini']When will the Oil Shock end?

economies return to normal next year

July 26th
The Scandic Unions second orbital rocket is prepped at its launch site in Skane. The single manned launch takes off without a problem orbiting the earth twice before landing. Two weeks later another rocket is sent up. This rocket to takes off without a problem, but before it could get far it exploded in the air killing its single passenger. The next launch is put on hold for a month while an investigation ito what occured happens, but finally the SU's fourth orbital mission takes off, succesfully orbiting the globe a couple times then landing.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10869074&postcount=721

Suggested additions to rules.

Well, well. It seems quite a lot has happened during my absence.

Obviously, I'm back. I won't be posting regularly for a few more days, since there's a lot to catch up on. If there's anything I should know about, IC or OOC, send me a TG.

I will post retroactive builds in the economic thread, and post some important events in the South African new thread over the next couple of days. 1957 starts tomorrow, correct?

Ato-Sara, I quickly skimmed your proposed rules covering border closings and food shortages. I like the border closing idea, and can add it to the Economic Thread if no one else has any objections.

I'm on the fence on the food shortage idea, because while I think such things are going to be important considerations in the near future, I think the system is already complicated enough. I believe some discussion is needed.

Can someone send me a link to Chatzy? I'd appreciate it.

Can someone send me a link to Chatzy? I'd appreciate it.

Here's the link.

http://www.chatzy.com/684093003041

Thanks, Sharina.

New Japanese thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10872470#post10872470

New Japanese thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10872470#post10872470

Added.

I also turned over the year to 1957.

Just a note for those with secret projects and intel stuff:

I have several secret projects yet to resolve. Do not worry, they will be resolved. Just as soon as I can do some research around them and roll for them. I'll post the results when done.

*really wants to find out*

revised and amended pollution and energy rules posted
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10877176&postcount=796

food rules would be a simple figure 1 food point (farming, fishing etc) would feed 20 million, and be based on what figures I can find.

Extra energy spent on fuel would naturally increase food production (as after all, it does).

Resource depletion is a consideration as well (overfishing anyone?)

So its a headache. I may wait a while on suggestions on that one.

Its simpler just to look at historical food production and know if your nation has to import food, it has to import food.

Only changes would be Russia and the Ukraine, which don't have the dead hand of Soviet Communism artificially reducing their food production. They, like Vietnam, would have been food exporters except for the artificial problems of communism collectivism in real life, and so should be here.

A Reorganization will be started this year (1957) in the Military.
Two "Groups" will be created, who will form the core of the army:

1st. Group-Kabul

2 Mech. Inf. Divisions
1 Mech. Artillery Group
1 Armored Division (To be Build in 1958)

2nd. Group-Teheran

2 Mech. Inf. Divisions
1 Mech. Artillery Group
1 Armored Division

The Mujahideen Divisions will be distributed as following:

Mashhad- 1 Mujahideen Division
Bandar Abbas- 1 Mujahideen Division
Ahwaz- 1 Mujahideen Division

The UIR Airforce will be stationed in Kabul, Teheran (The Mystere IV's) and Bandar Abbas (The Mirage III).

Ayatollah Khomeini has announced that free and fair elections will be held in June 1960. All political parties may join the elections, the more the better. The registration of political parties must be done before January 1960.

A few secret intel projects bear fruit, all SECRET IC:

RUSSIA

In Siberia many people are shocked by the lack of seats that the Siberian Liberation Free Siberia party achieved in the last election. Rumours abound of vote fixing and poor electoral practice. Funded by some exterior power several town hall and other meetings places hold rallies to support the cause of independence. Posters go up around the area to promote the cause and the rallies gain some popularity. Though no threats of violence or such have been made the police are a little concerned about such large gatherings of people, as are the KGB. Both ask permission of parliament or the prime minister to investigate further.

Several other groups also receive exterior funding, including but not limitd to independence groups in Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Chukotka, and Khabarovsk. The money is spread more thinly than in Siberia but is still pretty influential in local political meetings.

SCANDIC UNION

Several nuclear non-proliferation groups spring up including a Scandinavian branck of teh Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. A group which had previously been a small group petitioning the government to abandon nuclear weapons in the UK. The groups organise some small scale protests outside of the Scandic Parliament, these are largely peaceful though some arrests are made for civil disobedience.

BRITAIN

Spurred on by the perceived popularity of the SU branch, the UK CND begins protests at Her Majesty's Naval Base Clyde where the UK Nuclear Submarines are stationed and serviced as well as several known missile sites around the country.

GERMANY

Several Intel agencies finally begin to get results from a massive 10 month investigation into the German election funding. After the easy task of discovering the bank account number, though money is spent bribing bank staff (often unsuccesfully die to strict Swiss banking protection laws) they struggle to get further than a rough description of the depositor as a non-descript, English-speaking, well dressed gentleman with no particular accent. The depositing nation's intel agency is aware of the fact that some snooping has been going on and they have been covering their tracks as much as possible.

There's still more projects to check out. Jesus you're a secretive lot...

Crossposted on the Darwin Talks Thread. All nations that are referred to, please respond there if you are interested.

Australian officials tentatively bring up the option in Washington, London, and capitals of SCT members who touch the Pacific Ocean of a second round of Darwin Talks to be held in December of 1957 featuring all major Pacific powers. Goals would be a basic reassurance of stability in the region, organization of multifaceted war games, and perhaps further cooperation in matters of space exploration or commerce.

Darwin Talks Thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479329

OOC: Sorry LR, my school's firewall says your nation page is pornography...

SIC: The French agree to assist the Germans with their intelligence regarding the illegal intereference in Germany's politics.

The KND also politely asks MI6 if they would be kind enough to help.

IC: The Reichstag sends a message to Britain regarding the suspended Daresalaam Treaty and Germany's move towards representative democracy.

The European Cultural exchange program is expected to kick off on May 1st (Tommorow), featuring many artists, writers, thinkers, playwrights, movie actors and director...etc from allover Europe.

It is expected that calls for peace and nuclear non-profilliration be on the minds of many of these people and their works, however the program is to focus on the diversity of European culture than on the political atmosphere.

OOC: LR, did you recieve my TM's updating you on the status of EEC and ESA membership?

The French agree to assist the Germans with their intelligence regarding the illegal intereference in Germany's politics.

Noted.

The KND also politely asks MI6 if they would be kind enough to help.

The director of MI6 responds that unfortunately the charter of the agency does not allow them to investigate outside of Britain's sphere of interest. Reasons cited include being funded by British taxpayers' money and limited manpower available at thi spoint in time.

The Reichstag sends a message to Britain regarding the suspended Daresalaam Treaty and Germany's move towards representative democracy.

The German move towards more representative democracy is noted, but many within the government and population are still worried for the future after being shaken by the recent coup. Though perhaps a new administration would be more receptive (Harold Macmillan has just started his period in office and will remain there until 1963, maybe after that?).

OOC: LR, did you recieve my TM's updating you on the status of EEC and ESA membership?

Yep, it's next on my list of things to do. When I have time...

No manned launches were planned for the year, but in there place a probe was launched to fly by Mars which after months of travel began to transmit back pictures and data. Along with the probe, two satelite networks went up, a communications network and a (SIC) spy satelite network.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10893069#post10893069

2nd Darwin Talks thread. I'll crosspost on relevant national threads. Invited nations are Britain, Australia, USA, Japan, Korea, China, and USEA. If somebody was forgotten, chime in please. Feel free to get started.

The German move towards more representative democracy is noted, but many within the government and population are still worried for the future after being shaken by the recent coup. Though perhaps a new administration would be more receptive (Harold Macmillan has just started his period in office and will remain there until 1963, maybe after that?).

The Reichstag, not to mention the German people, take much offense to the rejection by the British, whom they assumed would remain a trusted ally. Many remember how easily the FAS traitors returned to the Commonwealth and the many pro-British Factions take a hit in the polls.

The Chancellor is also peeved. The rejection of assistance from MI6 does not help the relations.

Parthini']The Reichstag, not to mention the German people, take much offense to the rejection by the British, whom they assumed would remain a trusted ally. Many remember how easily the FAS traitors returned to the Commonwealth and the many pro-British Factions take a hit in the polls.

The Chancellor is also peeved. The rejection of assistance from MI6 does not help the relations.

Pakistan remembers how India (the FAS was not created until 1945) never betrayed the Commonwealth. India attempted to stay out of the Third Great War to avoid needless loss of life because of Western Imperialism. India then re-joined the Allies to fight the Pact due to its attempt to crush the world under its iron grip. In the end, India ended up paying the second-highest loss of life in the world ("beaten" only by China, which had been invaded and ravaged by the Japanese for many years before hand), and that the weapons which did the damage were mostly designed by German engineers.

OOC: First off, it wasn't directed towards anyone but Britain.

Secondly, enough with the blaming Germany bullshit. Germany was out of the Pact by '42 and the nukes didn't start flying till at least the latter part of '42. (I don't remember. Too much RL info stored up for AP hist...)

Just because someone engineered something doesn't mean you should blame them for using it. Do you blame Oppenheimer or Einstein for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Parthini']OOC: First off, it wasn't directed towards anyone but Britain.

Secondly, enough with the blaming Germany bullshit. Germany was out of the Pact by '42 and the nukes didn't start flying till at least the latter part of '42. (I don't remember. Too much RL info stored up for AP hist...)

Just because someone engineered something doesn't mean you should blame them for using it. Do you blame Oppenheimer or Einstein for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

ooc
technically neither of you were officially talking to the other, so the matter should be dropped. Although some people actually do blame Oppenheimer (not as many as blame Truman for example)

Parthini']OOC: First off, it wasn't directed towards anyone but Britain.

Secondly, enough with the blaming Germany bullshit. Germany was out of the Pact by '42 and the nukes didn't start flying till at least the latter part of '42. (I don't remember. Too much RL info stored up for AP hist...)

Just because someone engineered something doesn't mean you should blame them for using it. Do you blame Oppenheimer or Einstein for Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

First off, I don't like being referred to as "the traitors". I took a huge bullet for the LTA, forcing the Soviets to send multiple corps South to try and defend their territories. Those Corps could have been used to help occupy Germany.

Secondly, I won't stop blaming Germany because it gave the Russians the weapons. Just like I blame Frans van Anraat for Halabja because he gave the Iraqis chemical weapons.

ooc.
Just like I blame Frans van Anraat for Halabja because he gave the Iraqis chemical weapons.

I didn't know people out of the Netherlands knew that b*tch...

First off, I don't like being referred to as "the traitors". I took a huge bullet for the LTA, forcing the Soviets to send multiple corps South to try and defend their territories. Those Corps could have been used to help occupy Germany.

Secondly, I won't stop blaming Germany because it gave the Russians the weapons. Just like I blame Frans van Anraat for Halabja because he gave the Iraqis chemical weapons.

Who do you blame for RL WWII? The Germans or the Nazi's?

And whod do you blame for The Eurasian War? The Germans or the Euro-Communists?

Who do you blame for RL WWII? The Germans or the Nazi's?

And whod do you blame for The Eurasian War? The Germans or the Euro-Communists?


ooc
I think we should all blame France, its an Anglo American tradition after all

;)

to reflect the last few posts

IC
A major news media war of words occurs between Germany and Pakistan, and eventually spreads to other nations regarding blame for the Second and Third Great Wars.

a major development

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10901449#post10901449

SECRET:

In the Palace, the King is smiling. Perhaps all will go much more historically than he could have ever hoped.

(the King's a huge admirer of the old Caliphates, and sees the big world powers fighting as an opportunity to get ahead. The Eastern Roman Empire and the Sassanids had been wearing each other out for so long they were both ousted by a group of nomadic herders and traders.)

Whoops, posted my budget in the wrong thread.

Portugal Update:

The "peacekeeping forces" split themselves up to cover the area more effectively. The Brazilians concentrate on the rural and mountainous areas where their common language will be beneficial in an area where most only speak Portuguese. The British and US forces concentrate on the more cosmopolitan coastal city regions where many people can speak English passably anyway. All 3 powers are in close contact with each other and rapid response units of the British and US special forces are ready to reach a trouble area within minutes.

The British and US begin steps to set up a new military and police force for the Portuguese, their previous forces having been disbanded or non-existant in the first place. Meanwhile the Brazilians hunt down the remaining rebels in the mountains on the Spanish border. This is mostly just a mopping up and humanitarian operation, though some outposts of resistance are located and neutralised with heavy use of armoured vehicles against any resistance to minimise casualties. Use of air superiority is widespread and further reduces casualties. The French Foreign Legion does good work in hunting down fugitives across the border into spain, using the language skills of some of their recruits to converse with the locals and learn of rebel activity.

Gardually the new Portugeuse army and police forces takes over the operations and the UN general in charge believes that a complete handover of power can be completed within a year. Though he warns that some UN forces may have to remain to oversee things.

Important things are happening in South Africa: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910042&postcount=60

new US thread (to replace old one)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=481348

new US thread (to replace old one)
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=481348

Added.

Also turned over the year for midnight tonight.

By the way, is Chatzy down? I can't seem to get into Chatzy since yesterday afternoon.

I can't seem to get Chatzy up either. Seems to be down then.

Added.

Also turned over the year for midnight tonight.

yes, but I will be busy the next couple of days, so by the time I finish posting everything in that thread, it will be 1958

Am i doing portugals builds for 58 and if i am i dont have their previous builds.
if anyone can tg me that would be great.

Am i doing portugals builds for 58 and if i am i dont have their previous builds.
if anyone can tg me that would be great.

Portugal (includes Azores)
Population: 9 million people, tech level 6
Production: Lisbon 1 point, 4 shipping units (6 points at peacetime)

currently no tourism, no airline, could use rural electrification, has 1 coal resource for its own energy needs,

hmm, after looking over the situation, I will look hard at the requirements for tech levels 8 and 8.5

omg, this is still going. Cool!

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how to resolve the hydroelectric issues. I've been looking through some hydro dam articles, technical specs, and so on.

I'm trying to think of ways how to resolve the sediment issues and I've come up with a couple of ideas.

1. Use pipelines to run all the sediments from the bottom of the resvoir or the bottom "behind" part of the dam where the sediment builds up... pipeline them to the river in front of the dam where the sediments can continue their journey to the river delta, therefore allowing the lands to remain fertile along the riverbanks.

This is called "Wet Method" as it uses the river to do the work.

2. Use similiar pipeline ideas or a mechanized sediment "digger" machine to operate constantly, then deposit the sediment into factories near the dam where the sediments are packaged into fertilizer and sent all over the farmlands and used to sustain fertile lands along the river.

This is called the "Dry Method" as it uses human labor, trucks, factories, etc. to do the work.

3. Use double the sluice gates than in RL- for example, if a RL dam uses 5 sluice gates, then the E20 China would build around 10 or so sluice gates for a dam of similiar size.



I'm trying to think of other ways how to solve this problem.

In addition, I want to build small dams to minimize the enviromental and flooding impact (less scenery, archaeology sites, villages, cities, etc. flooded). I'm thinking of building dams only 1/10 the size of the Three Gorges Dam and possibly 1/5 the size of the Hoover Dam. That means the resevoirs would be much smaller, and instead of one great big lake, China will have 100 or so smaller lakes, which will be of much greater benefit.

Many smaller lakes = better flood control, much easier to extract sediments (see my solutions above), less damage to the scenery and archaoelogy sites, used for fishing (fish farming) and so forth.

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how to resolve the hydroelectric issues. I've been looking through some hydro dam articles, technical specs, and so on.

I'm trying to think of ways how to resolve the sediment issues and I've come up with a couple of ideas.

1. Use pipelines to run all the sediments from the bottom of the resvoir or the bottom "behind" part of the dam where the sediment builds up... pipeline them to the river in front of the dam where the sediments can continue their journey to the river delta, therefore allowing the lands to remain fertile along the riverbanks.

This is called "Wet Method" as it uses the river to do the work.

2. Use similiar pipeline ideas or a mechanized sediment "digger" machine to operate constantly, then deposit the sediment into factories near the dam where the sediments are packaged into fertilizer and sent all over the farmlands and used to sustain fertile lands along the river.

This is called the "Dry Method" as it uses human labor, trucks, factories, etc. to do the work.

3. Use double the sluice gates than in RL- for example, if a RL dam uses 5 sluice gates, then the E20 China would build around 10 or so sluice gates for a dam of similiar size.



I'm trying to think of other ways how to solve this problem.

In addition, I want to build small dams to minimize the enviromental and flooding impact (less scenery, archaeology sites, villages, cities, etc. flooded). I'm thinking of building dams only 1/10 the size of the Three Gorges Dam and possibly 1/5 the size of the Hoover Dam. That means the resevoirs would be much smaller, and instead of one great big lake, China will have 100 or so smaller lakes, which will be of much greater benefit.

Many smaller lakes = better flood control, much easier to extract sediments (see my solutions above), less damage to the scenery and archaoelogy sites, used for fishing (fish farming) and so forth.

I am not an engineer, so I need references to look at on what you have in mind.

incidently, new toys and rules posted in the military thread.

I am not an engineer, so I need references to look at on what you have in mind.

incidently, new toys and rules posted in the military thread.

I came up with these ideas, as I have a creative mind. I don't know the exact technical specifications or the precise methods how to "engineer" these systems. These ideas are based off some common sense ideas and principles, as well as some everyday stuff like bathtub / sink drains and sandboxes and such.

What if I spent some "points" in the economy thread for China to fund engineers to discover workable ways to use my ideas I stated above? I mean in both RL and E20 universes, you'd need a team of engineers to figure out how to make these ideas work (simple or complex ideas) as you and I aren't engineers in RL to solve these problems.

I'm good with problem solving- the problem is that if it involves technical mumbo-jumbo how to do it, I'm at a loss to do that (hence why I gave up on solving mainstream NS problems because everybody in NS demands technical jargon, something I cannot do).

--------------------------------------

You could say I'm like Howard Hughes- in RL he was pretty good at creating aircraft but wasn't an engineer from MIT or CalTech or whatever as he had no engineering experience or degree.

hmm, after looking over the situation, I will look hard at the requirements for tech levels 8 and 8.5

They should definetely be much harder.

Check your TG's, GB.

By the way, is Chatzy still down? I still can't get it up- I keep getting "Website Not Responding" for 2 days straight.

In addition, I want to build small dams to minimize the enviromental and flooding impact (less scenery, archaeology sites, villages, cities, etc. flooded). I'm thinking of building dams only 1/10 the size of the Three Gorges Dam and possibly 1/5 the size of the Hoover Dam. That means the resevoirs would be much smaller, and instead of one great big lake, China will have 100 or so smaller lakes, which will be of much greater benefit.

Many smaller lakes = better flood control, much easier to extract sediments (see my solutions above), less damage to the scenery and archaoelogy sites, used for fishing (fish farming) and so forth.

A 100 or so smaller lakes that take up roughly the same amount of land area as the one big lake. You will have the same amount, if not more problems from those lakes as you would from one big one. Also, ten dams instead of one is going to be 1)more expensive, 2)greatly slow down and cut down trafic up the river and 3) spread out the effects further along the river.

By the way, is Chatzy still down? I still can't get it up- I keep getting "Website Not Responding" for 2 days straight.

I can't get to Chatzy either. We'll probably just have to wait it out.

Check your TG's, GB.

By the way, is Chatzy still down? I still can't get it up- I keep getting "Website Not Responding" for 2 days straight.

I can't access any Chatzy's either

A 100 or so smaller lakes that take up roughly the same amount of land area as the one big lake. You will have the same amount, if not more problems from those lakes as you would from one big one. Also, ten dams instead of one is going to be 1)more expensive, 2)greatly slow down and cut down trafic up the river and 3) spread out the effects further along the river.

1. Expenses China can afford. Pays off in the long run, when oil becomes scarce.

2. Problem can be solved by building railroads along the river. In fact, railroads can carry bulk freight just as well as river shipping can (if not more especially along rivers too small for huge barges to reach).

3. Not necessarily. Lakes only 30 meters deep will save a lot more farmland, archaeological sites, cultural sites, villages, cities, etc. as the waters will not flood as many sites as a 150 meter deep mega-lake would. Besides, many smaller lakes will absorb floodwaters in "stages" that can be controlled better than one big lake.

Additional points:

1. If I make multiple smaller dams, that means FAR LESS catastrophic damage than 1 huge dam. If the 3-Gorges Dam were to break (or attacked or nuked), enormous tracts of China will be flooded and completely obilterated along the entire Yangtze River valley meaning shitloads of industry and population would all die / be destroyed. If one small dam were to break, the damage can be localized and minimized by the next few small dams in sequence.

2. Smaller dams = more sites able to be built in (especially further up-river where the river is smaller and swallower and therefore not feasible for huge dams to be built)

3. Smaller dams can electricity a region or two, so if one dam goes, electricity output isn't affected compared to 1 huge dam. If the 3 Gorges Dam suffers a blackout, huge tracts of China will be without electricity. If a few small dams black / brown out, only a few local communities would be effected as the other dams, nuclear plants, etc. will take up the slack.


--------------------------------------

Here's some more elaboration on my 2 methods for sediment collection (and therefore sustain fertility in the Yangtze River valley and other river valleys as well)...

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/893/dam13bl.gif

My "Wet Method".

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6739/dam27xq.gif

My "Dry Method".

---------------------------------------

Bigger isn't better in some cases. The saying applies here... "The bigger they are, the harder they fall (or fail)".

There's a reason why we don't build 2 mile long carriers or battleships... or building 200 ton tanks or 20 lane bridges or such. We don't build one huge power plant (like a 10,000 acre coal power plant or a nuclear power plant with 100 reactors). And so on.

3. Not necessarily. Lakes only 30 meters deep will save a lot more farmland, archaeological sites, cultural sites, villages, cities, etc. as the waters will not flood as many sites as a 150 meter deep mega-lake would. Besides, many smaller lakes will absorb floodwaters in "stages" that can be controlled better than one big lake.

A bunch of lakes that are 30ft deep as opposed to a 150 footer will in fact take up more land area, although it will lessen flooding.


Bigger isn't better in some cases. The saying applies here... "The bigger they are, the harder they fall (or fail)".

There's a reason why we don't build 2 mile long carriers or battleships... or building 200 ton tanks or 20 lane bridges or such. We don't build one huge power plant (like a 10,000 acre coal power plant or a nuclear power plant with 100 reactors). And so on.

This coming from the guy building the gigantic aircraft.:p

I agree that the Three Gorges Dam is a bad idea and that smaller dams would probaly be more efective, but as far as land area that is going to be covered in water it will increase, and river traffic will be affected by multiple smaller dams. Also, train freight isn't as cheap as shipping by sea, the TGD is actually going to greatly increase river traffic and turn one of the cities in China's interior(Started with a C, can't remember the name) into a gigantic industrial center for just that reason.

A bunch of lakes that are 30ft deep as opposed to a 150 footer will in fact take up more land area, although it will lessen flooding.

China has plenty of land area though- but there's room for tweaking like a 50 foot deep lake instead of a 30 footer or a 150 footer.

This coming from the guy building the gigantic aircraft.:p

Good point.

However, keep in mind that my gigantic aircraft is designed to be employed in a far wider range of applications than the B-52's.

Air Force One, Space Program support, refueler duty, AWACS / AEW / ASW roles, commercial jet-liners (My own version of the Boeing 747-400 or Airbus A380), and so forth. This aircraft is actually meant to service all China's heavy duty aircraft needs for at least until 2050 (with exception of fighters and stealth aircraft).

Also, using one airframe for almost everything is easier and less confusing than using 20+ different types of aircraft.

I agree that the Three Gorges Dam is a bad idea and that smaller dams would probaly be more efective, but as far as land area that is going to be covered in water it will increase, and river traffic will be affected by multiple smaller dams. Also, train freight isn't as cheap as shipping by sea, the TGD is actually going to greatly increase river traffic and turn one of the cities in China's interior(Started with a C, can't remember the name) into a gigantic industrial center for just that reason.

I plan on massively expanding China's railroad networks shortly, and sea shipping can reach the coastal cities in China, then transfer to railroad to be delivered into the interior of China. In this timeline, my China will probably have 5 to 10 times as much railroad than RL China (due to early industralization, more dams, and more need for freight into the interior of China).

If problems arise, I can build the "lock canals" that the RL Three Gorges is supposed to use, but instead of 5 or 10 "gates" I'll probably only need 1 or 2. This would cut the time for each individual dam, but evens out with the number of dams to be traversed.

I mean, it supposedly takes 4 hours for 1 ship to traverse the 3 Gorges Dam, but pronbably only 30 minutes or so for one of my smaller ones as there's less depth to "transit" from bottom of the dam to the top. I also recall that the 3 Gorges also uses what is called a "ship elevator".

Can someone post the link for older populations, the one on the front page only covers current populations I think

Can someone post the link for older populations, the one on the front page only covers current populations I think

I have population figures from the 1920's saved as a backup (I did a backup way back then because I was worried E20 would fall apart during our WW-2).

It will use both. The elevator is huge but as big as it is it can only transport smaller ships, a few thousands tons so the locks are still needed. For river traffic, traffic short distances will go faster that with the TGD but long distance, heavier freight, going from Chon(something) to Shanghai on the coast, which will make up the bulk of traffic will take longer.

China has plenty of land area, but not enough to go around for 600 million and soon to be 1 billion people, and the smaller lakes will still take up a lot of that land.

As for the aircraft, I was just throwing that in there.

I have population figures from the 1920's saved as a backup (I did a backup way back then because I was worried E20 would fall apart during our WW-2).

do you think you could TG me Australian (and if you have it New Zealand) populations from then? I want to see if what I have is remotely reasonable.

me too if you don't mind

A Global War has begun between the Pact and the LTA

The Big Powers 1925 (1920 figures)

Population in millions/percentage urban
Russia 195.1 / 12
USA 125 / 50
Germany 76 / 45
China 500 / 10
Japan 55 / 22
France 42 / 25
Britain 50 / 60
Italy 40 / 25
Burgundy 6 /34
Colombia 6 / 12
India 300/10

Industrial powers / Industrial potential and GNP in 1920 Dollars
LTA Nations
Britain 150
USA 500
Japan 45
Italy 30
Colombia 12
India 5

Total LTA potential 742 population 556 million (not counting other British Dominions)

Warsaw Pact
Germany 180
Russia 105
France 150
Czechslovakia 12
Total Warsaw Pact industrial potential 447 population 327 million

Other nations (some pro Warsaw Pact, some neutral)

Belgium 45
Burgundy 25
China 47

For everyone else, for ease, use $1 Billion for every million people if tech level 5, $500 million for every million if tech level 4
$100 Million for every million people if Tech Level 3 or 3.5, and $10 Millio for every million if Tech Level 2... below that you don't have a GNP

The Year 1920
(editors note: GDP information is difficult to come by for this period, and historical information was strongly affected by World War I, which in our time line was less severe and earlier... so I am still working on it. But for now, this should give you something to look at. In addition, I only included independent nations of this period. Colonial territories were not included principally because information is hard to get, and they don't control their economic destiny anyway at this point.)

North America

Canada
Population: 7 million
Economic Rating Very Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5
Oil Exporter

United States
Population: 125 million (plus colonial populations)
Economic Rating Powerhouse
Tech Level: 6
Oil Exporter

Central America and Caribbean
Cuba
Population 3 million
Economic Rating: Struggling or Fair (see below)
Tech level 3.5

Nicaruaga, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Santa Domingo all have struggly or fair economies depending on the prices their principal exports get on the world market that year, and tech levels of 2 or 3 depending on the quality of their infrastructure and level of political unrest (if any)

Mexico
Population: 20 million
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3
Oil Exporter

This area is a bit more stable than it was historically, although not by much. Although the US has not intervened in the area, and the Pan American Treaty prevents other nations from doing so, there has still been periodic internal unrest that frequently results in economic losses.

South America

Argentina
Population 7 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Brazil
Population: 25 million
Economic Rating struggling
Tech Level: 3.5
Big problems because of the Civil War, high debt, and now its cut off from the the economic support is was getting from the Pact and partially isolated by US naval blockade

Chile
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Colombia
Population: 5 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Venezuela
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 3.5
Oil Exporter

Europe
Albania
Population 3 million
Economic Rating Struggling (extractive)
Tech level 3

Hungary
Population: 18 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4
(however, if the Civil War occurs than economic rating will plummet)

Czechslovakia
population 5 million
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech level 5

Belgium
Population: 7 million (plus colonial)
Economic rating Very Good (industrial)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 5

Denmark
Population: 2,5 million (plus Iceland and other territory)
Economic rating Fair (market)
Industrial Base:
Tech Level: 4
still recovering from the short war with Germany

France
Population: 40 million (plus Colonial populations)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5

Germany
Population: 70 million
Industrial Base: 52 (capacity), 71.2 (potential)
Economic Rating Very Strong (mercantile)
Tech level: 5.5

Great Britain
Population: 45 (plus a vast Colonial population)
Economic Rating: Powerhouse (mercantile)
Tech Level: 6
Exports Oil (Nigeria)

Greece
Population: 4 million
Economic rating Reasonable (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Italy
Population: 35
Economic Rating Fair (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

Burgundy
Population: 10 million
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level 5

Yugoslavia
Population 13 million
Economic Rating Reasonable (market)
Tech level 4

Netherlands
Population: 6 million (plus Dutch East Indies)
Economic Rating Strong (mercantile)
Tech Level: 5
Exports Oil (Dutch East Indies, Aruba)

Norway
Population: 2.5 million
Economic rating Good (extractive):
Tech Level: 4

Portugal
Population:6 million (plus Angola, Mozambique)
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech level 3.5

Rumania
Population: 7 million
Economic rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4
Exports Oil

Russia
Population: 165 million
Economic Rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5.5
exports Oil

Spain
Population 15 million
Economic Rating: Reasonable (extractive)
Tech level 4
still recovering from an extremely costly and nasty civil war, the southern parts of the country near Cadiz are in ruins

Sweden
Population: 6 million +
Economic rating Good (industrial)
Tech Level: 5.5

Middle East and North Africa

Ottoman Empire
Population: 28 million (including territories)
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4.5
Exports Oil

Palestine
Population: 1 million (estimate)
Economic rating Fair (extractive)
Tech Level: 3

Morocco
Population 7 million
Economic rating fair (extractive)
Tech level 3
extensive US investment and assistance in developing infrastructure since 1922, even more investment coming (particularly for its main port of Casablanca)

no other independent nations at this point

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Population: 6 million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 4

Liberia, Ethopia are also independent and have tech levels of 2, struggling, extractive economies
all other territory in Africa is owned by someone and is exclusively extractive

East Asia

China
Population: 500 + million
Economic rating Good (market)
Tech Level: 5
However, foreign investment has dried up after the war started

Japan
Population: 55 Million
Economic Rating Strong (industrial)
Tech Level: 5

India
Population 300 million
Economic Rating Good (extractive)
Tech Level: 4

Korea
Population: 11 million
Economic Rating Fair (market)
Tech Level: 4

Siam
Population 9 million
Economic Rating Weak (Extractive)
Tech level 2

no other independent nations, Colonial territories are included in their owners rating

Oceania
Australia
Population 6 million
Economic Rating Good (Market)
Tech level 5

New Zealand
GDP per capita:
Population: 1 million
Economic Rating Fair (Extractive)
Tech Level: 3.5

Heres the backup data from 1925 as requested.

thanks, though I'm not sure how much this wil help me

1. Expenses China can afford. Pays off in the long run, when oil becomes scarce.

2. Problem can be solved by building railroads along the river. In fact, railroads can carry bulk freight just as well as river shipping can (if not more especially along rivers too small for huge barges to reach).

3. Not necessarily. Lakes only 30 meters deep will save a lot more farmland, archaeological sites, cultural sites, villages, cities, etc. as the waters will not flood as many sites as a 150 meter deep mega-lake would. Besides, many smaller lakes will absorb floodwaters in "stages" that can be controlled better than one big lake.

Additional points:

1. If I make multiple smaller dams, that means FAR LESS catastrophic damage than 1 huge dam. If the 3-Gorges Dam were to break (or attacked or nuked), enormous tracts of China will be flooded and completely obilterated along the entire Yangtze River valley meaning shitloads of industry and population would all die / be destroyed. If one small dam were to break, the damage can be localized and minimized by the next few small dams in sequence.

2. Smaller dams = more sites able to be built in (especially further up-river where the river is smaller and swallower and therefore not feasible for huge dams to be built)

3. Smaller dams can electricity a region or two, so if one dam goes, electricity output isn't affected compared to 1 huge dam. If the 3 Gorges Dam suffers a blackout, huge tracts of China will be without electricity. If a few small dams black / brown out, only a few local communities would be effected as the other dams, nuclear plants, etc. will take up the slack.


--------------------------------------

Here's some more elaboration on my 2 methods for sediment collection (and therefore sustain fertility in the Yangtze River valley and other river valleys as well)...

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/893/dam13bl.gif

My "Wet Method".

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6739/dam27xq.gif

My "Dry Method".

---------------------------------------

Bigger isn't better in some cases. The saying applies here... "The bigger they are, the harder they fall (or fail)".

There's a reason why we don't build 2 mile long carriers or battleships... or building 200 ton tanks or 20 lane bridges or such. We don't build one huge power plant (like a 10,000 acre coal power plant or a nuclear power plant with 100 reactors). And so on.

Bump for response on these two proposals being used for the "hydroelectric enviromental reduction measures".

These two proposals should be easily done at Tech Level 7.5 as they don't rely on a lot of electronics, computer tech, or complex machiney. The techinques in these two proposals could be done with RL 1950's or 1960's technology.

The enviromental damage would be reduced by quite a bit as the sediment and silt will be allowed to either continue down-river... or be packaged at the plants for farm fertilizer or "dry silt" to be deposited in the river deltas (again apply them to land or farming in the deltas)

In addition, the enviromental damage would be reduced by smaller dams than the large dams (Hoover, Volga, Three Gorges) dams as the flooding and "lost" land wouldn't be as severe... Even though the total land area would be the same underwater for a single large dam to multiple small dams, the magnitude of lost habitats and scenery would be greatly reduced, compare 50 feet deep worth of flooding and land underwater to 150 feet worth.

The land area covered would be greater actually with smaller dams and shallower lakes.

But the lakes could be used better, and be more evenly distributed than having a small sea in the middle of the country.

The land area covered would be greater actually with smaller dams and shallower lakes.

Enviromental damage would be reduced substantially, though.

1. Shallower lakes = easier to collect sediment / silt for packaging (dry method) or pipe them downriver (wet method).

2. Swallower lakes = less amount of canyons, swamps, hilly terrain, etc. flooded (height / depth wise) = more habitats and villages "saved" from destruction.

3. Swallower lakes = easier to manage or build walls or levees around villages, cities, or archaoelogical sites to prevent them fom being irrevocoably damaged or ruined.

There's a few more benefits, but basically swallower lakes are *MUCH* more manageable and easily "manipulated" to minimize enviromental, cultural, and historical (archaoelogical) damage.

Cape Town Conference is up:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10927381&postcount=1

Australia, Germany, Korea, Nigeria, Brazil, and the United Republics are the invited PC nations.

I will be gone the rest of the week and most likely next week as well. After that Track is over anI should be able to devote the time that this RP deserves.

EDIT: As the St. Petersburg issue been resolved?

Cape Town Conference is up:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10927381&postcount=1

Australia, Germany, Korea, Nigeria, Brazil, and the United Republics are the invited PC nations.

Added the link to Cape Town conference in the main post.

Whats the thread link for the Oceanic Alliance? I need the link so I can put it up and do a little face-lift for the main post (seperate the various alliance threads from economic and game mechanics threads).

Whats the thread link for the Oceanic Alliance? I need the link so I can put it up and do a little face-lift for the main post (seperate the various alliance threads from economic and game mechanics threads).

Oceanic Treaty
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=481086

Oceanic Treaty
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=481086

Thanks GB.

Guys, please review the edits and face-lift to the E20 main post and please provide any links or threads that I may have missed or needs to be added under the various sub-categories in the main post.

Thanks in advance! :)

Several new NPCs for next year that I will control (economy wise):

The Republic of Kenya
The Republic of Uganda
The United Republic of Tanzania
The Republic of Chad
The Central African Republic
The Republic of Cameroon
The Republic of the Congo
The Republic of Gabon
The Republic of Equatorial Guinea
The Republic of Guinea-Bissau
The Republic of Rwanda
The Republic of Burundi

The EEC thread, which is somewhere, should go up there too.

PORTUGAL

The fighting begins to calm down as the last of the rebels are confined to the mountains. The newly formed Potrtuguese Army begins to take over responsibilities from the Brazilians in the mopping up stage and little fighting occurs anymore.

The US and Brits provide engineers and funds to construct a large, modern parliament building in Lisbon, the job provides a boost to the local economy alongside several road improvement schemes and other public works funded by the interim government to provide employment.

Supervised elections are planned for early in the next year and UN officials are invited to watch over them as an impartial observer. The parliament will be set up based on the US two-house system with a House of Representatives and a Senate for revision of bills passed by the lower house.

It is hoped that by the end of next year the majority of foreign forces can be returned home and that the defence of the nation is left to the Portuguese, though foreign officials will remain in advisor posts to the new government ministaries.

Are Mali and Mauritiania independent?

Are Mali and Mauritiania independent?

Mauritiania is a UN Mandate under Moroccan control, and Morocco provides its social services. The US would push to simply add it to Morocco as its not an economically viable state (too few resources, no basis even to build industry on)

for similar reasons, the US recommends that Mali be part of a union of Senegal, Guinea Bissau, and Gambia, and that Nigeria incorporate Niger.

The US recommends that the Ivory Coast, Sierra Leon, and Liberia remain independent as they have different histories and cultures from the others, and do have their own industrial base. As does Ghana, which the US recommends being left alone as well and being allowed to incorporate Burkina Fasa (which also lacks an economic base).

ooc
the nations recommended for annexation are all on the transition zone between the Sahara and Subsaharan Africa, and historically have huge issues with overgrazing because they lack the industrial base, economic base and resource base to really do much to help themselves and even with massive UN aid have not been able to improve much.

That still leaves Chad, which would probably benefit under Nigerian control.

OOC: LR, did you get my tg a few days ago?

OOC: Also, could the chatzy link be posted up front because sometimes I'm not on my computer and I don't have the link and so I have to dig thruogh all these pages for were someone asked for it.


ooc
the nations recommended for annexation are all on the transition zone between the Sahara and Subsaharan Africa, and historically have huge issues with overgrazing because they lack the industrial base, economic base and resource base to really do much to help themselves and even with massive UN aid have not been able to improve much.

That still leaves Chad, which would probably benefit under Nigerian control.

I'd have to say leave most of it as it is, we got to have some problem area's in the world, we can't fix everything with our 20/20 hindsight.

What does the US think should be done with Jordan then (same situation, very few resources, only 1 port, limited resources, probably on the same level as Mali)

Only asking because IIRC they are both RL Arab League members (not positive on Mali, I'll find out about that) so if they were I'd invite them.

What does the US think should be done with Jordan then (same situation, very few resources, only 1 port, limited resources, probably on the same level as Mali)

Only asking because IIRC they are both RL Arab League members (not positive on Mali, I'll find out about that) so if they were I'd invite them.

the US would say that the Kingdom of Jordan can make its own decisions, ooc I would say probably they would benefit, but balance of power issues make that tricky.

I'd have to say leave most of it as it is, we got to have some problem area's in the world, we can't fix everything with our 20/20 hindsight.

Except that the general lack of resources are apparent to the Americans which would make that recommendation (that still leaves plenty of room for events to occur by the way... seperatist movements etc)

Meaning you dont want me or Egypt getting our dirty little hands on it.

I dont suppose our new capability to build nukes (later this year) helps the matter.

EDIT: I think Idi Amin needs to take power, just because he's such a hilarious dictator.

The Turks are not going to like a nuclear armed arab league on their borders.

Its just me and Egypt, and I dont have any yet, although me and Turkey could end up in an arms race.

The Arab Federation had its eyes on Jordan. Perhaps a three way partition, or something?

And I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't like the Turks interfering in Arab affairs.

One that Turkey will win.

For every nuke built by Syria and Egypt, Turkey will have two, and the missiles to launch them. Keep nukes out of the ME, its not a race you can win, and I doubt its a race you really want to start.

Parthini']

And I'm pretty sure Germany wouldn't like the Turks interfering in Arab affairs.

No interferance, deterance. Nothing will be done to stop the Arabs.

One that Turkey will win.

For every nuke built by Syria and Egypt, Turkey will have two, and the missiles to launch them. Keep nukes out of the ME, its not a race you can win, and I doubt its a race you really want to start.

Are the Turks willing to bet their existance on that?

Its not a race I want to start, but its a race Im willing to run if Turkey builds a nuke.

Life would be so much easier if Canada annexed Turkey.

Turkey will not have a need for bombs if Syria and Egypt don't build them first. Turkey won't start a race, a race will only happen if Syria or Egypt decide they want to start building bombs.

Out of curiosity, when will Turkey hit 7.5?

Within the decade. Depending on how much Scandic assistance is available, shouldn't be long.

Alright good, we're still farther ahead (I hit it next year)

All the Turkic nations are equipped by me, Ukraine and Poland, so militarily their equipment is probally ahead of yours. Your ahead every else though.

The Turks are not going to like a nuclear armed arab league on their borders.

Egypt doesn't share a border with Turkey and no other Arab nations are planning to arm. The UR has also announced that the weapons are to aid peacekeeping in the region, not to destroy some little country that likes causing international tension. If the SU provides nuclear weapons to Turkey, this will be seen as an act of aggression and dealt with accordingly.

Turkey however, depends on the SU's help in order for it to be great, so if something should happen to change that, Turkey's position would probably be reduced
just my thoughts

All the Turkic nations are equipped by me, Ukraine and Poland, so militarily their equipment is probally ahead of yours. Your ahead every else though.

And you think I leave the Arabs in the middle ages?

Oh yeah, I don't know if you've seen the German presence in Syria.

IC: The Kaiserin, on her trip to Syria announces that sale of all weapons and vehicles (except the TA202) are available for the Arab League to purchase. She recommends that the 20 points given to the Arab League should be used to reequip the Arab League armies.

*smacks head* not again.....

Japan asks both the SU and Germany to stop trying to fan the flames of future war by providing rival groups with weapons

Egypt doesn't share a border with Turkey and no other Arab nations are planning to arm. The UR has also announced that the weapons are to aid peacekeeping in the region, not to destroy some little country that likes causing international tension. If the SU provides nuclear weapons to Turkey, this will be seen as an act of aggression and dealt with accordingly.

If the Arab League or any of its members arm themselves with nuclear weaponry then Turkey will arm itself as well. Turkey will only arm if Egypt or Syria do so first.

Also, building nukes to aid peacekeeping? Thats a first.

If the Arab League or any of its members arm themselves with nuclear weaponry then Turkey will arm itself as well. Turkey will only arm if Egypt or Syria do so first.

Also, building nukes to aid peacekeeping? Thats a first.

It's called a "Deterrence". Turkey won't gather up it's armies and storm Syria if it knows Egypt has a couple nuclear missiles ready to take out major Turkish cities. It was a popular cold war strategy and is probably the reason you're alive in RL right now.

Likewise, Syria won't bomb Turkey with its new weapons now knowing Turkey has them to, and more of them. What your doing isn't deterance, your sparking off a situation. Nobody in the Middle East has bombs yet, and it should stay that way, don't spark of a new situation and a new arms race.

Once again, we've reached a point where Europeans are "more responsible" than other people, completely disregarding the world wars and the past thousands of years of history.

The UR has been focusing on African independence and the future of Africa. There are doubts that Palestine will remain part of the United Republics, which would almost completely remove the UR from Asia. The UR has only started one war in it's existance and it's only interactions with Turkey have been secret negotiations. Ignoring the SU's lust for keeping the Arabs under 3rd world status, Turkey has no reason to fear the UR or even suspect problems. The UR has a stockpile of chemical weapons which are just a quick flight away from the Turkish capital, yet Turkey doesn't have an extensive chemical weapons program.

If Syria had a nuclear weapons program, I can understand Turkey's fear. Yet they have no more reason to fear the UR than they do China. The UR will produce nuclear weapons. No matter how many threats the SU throws at us, we will not allow you to rule the Middle East with threats and terror.

If the UR builds bombs then so will Turkey, its that simple. You've stated mroe than once that turkey is a major reason for building these bombs, claiming there to 'Deter" any Turkish thought of invading Syria when no suggestion of such a thing has ever been made. "Egypt has a couple nuclear missiles ready to take out major Turkish cities" is a statement that would make any nation worry. Turkey will not use these weapons, but if Egypt arms then so must Turkey, and don't try to say there is a difference between Egypt and Syria arming, there aren't two closer nations out there in the world.

As for the SU's lust, name one occasion where that been true? If you didn't know, a few years back the SU offered Syria peacefull nuclear technology to build reactors as part of the Arabia deal. We've sold modern armaments to Syria army and we are one of the nations that actually helped get Syria's armed forces of the ground. Further, we have threatened absolutely no harm to either Egypt or Syria whatsoever in these talks. and we do not plan on throwing out any threats anytime soon.

If the UR builds bombs then so will Turkey, its that simple. You've stated mroe than once that turkey is a major reason for building these bombs, claiming there to 'Deter" any Turkish thought of invading Syria when no suggestion of such a thing has ever been made. "Egypt has a couple nuclear missiles ready to take out major Turkish cities" is a statement that would make any nation worry. Turkey will not use these weapons, but if Egypt arms then so must Turkey, and don't try to say there is a difference between Egypt and Syria arming, there aren't two closer nations out there in the world.

Don't try to twist my words. The UR is a peacekeeping force for both Africa and the Arab World. We have no reasons to focus on Turkey, especially with the potential chaos that could ensure once all these new African nations are created and may start fighting for land and the scarce resources. Also, Egypt has promised to defend Syria if invaded. IF INVADED. Don't invade Syria and Egypt won't have to fight Turkey. It's that simple. Egypt has no quarrel with Turkey and could care less about this little rivalry. However, if Turkey has nuclear weapons then this conflict becomes a UR issue, which wouldn't be something any of the members of the Turkish Alliance would like.

As for the SU's lust, name one occasion where that been true? If you didn't know, a few years back the SU offered Syria peacefull nuclear technology to build reactors as part of the Arabia deal. We've sold modern armaments to Syria army and we are one of the nations that actually helped get Syria's armed forces of the ground.

Funny you should mention that, oh great Arab lover. Don't think the Egyptian government didn't already know about the little deal you proposed, which is called bribery, not helping. Shall we really discuss the Egyptian and Scandic deal that you proposed should Saudi Arabia be invaded again? I'm sure that would interest our audience.

Don't try to twist my words. The UR is a peacekeeping force for both Africa and the Arab World. We have no reasons to focus on Turkey, especially with the potential chaos that could ensure once all these new African nations are created and may start fighting for land and the scarce resources. Also, Egypt has promised to defend Syria if invaded. IF INVADED. Don't invade Syria and Egypt won't have to fight Turkey. It's that simple. Egypt has no quarrel with Turkey and could care less about this little rivalry. However, if Turkey has nuclear weapons then this conflict becomes a UR issue, which wouldn't be something any of the members of the Turkish Alliance would like.

If Egypt is allowed nuclear weapons then so is Turkey. If you have no reason to focus on Turkey then this shouldn't be a problem for you.




Funny you should mention that, oh great Arab lover. Don't think the Egyptian government didn't already know about the little deal you proposed, which is called bribery, not helping. Shall we really discuss the Egyptian and Scandic deal that you proposed should Saudi Arabia be invaded again? I'm sure that would interest our audience.

The deal that was proposed by Egypt you mean? I'll tell our audience for you.

After the first Saudi war Egypt and the Scandic Union agreed that should Syria invade Saudi Arabia again, which was extremely likely with the extreme tensions of the time, then Egypt would support both Turkey and the SU in invading Syria, who happened to be Egypts ally. It was a deal agreed to by Egypt. In fact proposed by Egypt saying they were sick of the Germans and Syrians for pushing them to invade Saudi Arabia the first time while Germany withheld the help they promised, while Egypt suffered some pretty bad casualties(In fact the worst of any nation in the war). Correct this if I forgot anything, but I think that pretty acurratly(SP?) sums up what happened.

So maybe we are guilty of backdoor dealings but no more guilty then Egypt, or every other nation on this planet.

The deal that was proposed by Egypt you mean? I'll tell our audience for you.

After the first Saudi war Egypt and the Scandic Union agreed that should Syria invade Saudi Arabia again, which was extremely likely with the extreme tensions of the time, then Egypt would support both Turkey and the SU in invading Syria, who happened to be Egypts ally. It was a deal agreed to by Egypt. In fact proposed by Egypt saying they were sick of the Germans and Syrians for pushing them to invade Saudi Arabia the first time while Germany withheld the help they promised. Correct this if I forgot anything, but I think that pretty acurratly(SP?) sums up what happened.

So maybe we are guilty of backdoor dealings but no more guilty then Egypt, or every other nation on this planet.

Correction, Egypt said that it felt betrayed by Germany in the first Saudi War and was prepared to join Saudi-SU forces in the second war to defend Arabia against Syria and Germany. The SU then proposed that Egypt and Turkey invade Syria should the war break out. I refused because Syria and I were working together on a nuclear program, in which you then offered to give me nuclear technoligy in reparations. You also asked me to share intel with you on Germany and Syria which I did so (I tged Lesser Ribena that I was doing so).

Also, what you didn't know, was that Egypt told Germany about our little negotiations. So yes, he already knows about Egyptian-SU secret negotiations and the invasion plans. Although Egypt would defend Saudi Arabia, a Turkish invasion of Syria would be a Turkish-Syrian War. You have reminded me of even more proof that the UR has stayed out of the Arab-Turkish rivalry and has planned to due so even when an Arab-Turkish War seemed inevitable.

Egypt agreed to invade Syria should they attack Saudi Arabia again and even moved forces into Palestine to prepare for it to happen(OOC: The post should be in the Saudi war thread). The only reason you backed out was because of fear of you losing again. Nuclear technology was never discussed with Egypt, although we did discuss peacefull reactor technology with Syria.

As for the intel, yes we did ask for it, so what. The point is you GAVE us the intel, intel on your allies, and you asked for nothing in return, it was given free. That is a very noble thing to do.

Also, what you didn't know, was that Egypt told Germany about our little negotiations. So yes, he already knows about Egyptian-SU secret negotiations and the invasion plans. Although Egypt would defend Saudi Arabia, a Turkish invasion of Syria would be a Turkish-Syrian War. You have reminded me of even more proof that the UR has stayed out of the Arab-Turkish rivalry and has planned to due so even when an Arab-Turkish War seemed inevitable.

You told Germany? Germany is your sole witness? Now isn't that conveniant for proof.

Even if true, you have admitted that Egypt agreed to fight Syrian forces in Saudi Arabia, even though Egypt and Syria were allies at the time. And you've also admitted that you wouldn't defend an ally in a time of need.

You told Germany? Germany is your sole witness? Now isn't that conveniant for proof.

Even if true, you have admitted that Egypt agreed to fight Syrian forces in Saudi Arabia, even though Egypt and Syria were allies at the time.

Uhm, thank you Mr. SU ambassador. You have just confirmed that the UR and Turkey have worked together before and would have fought together had Arabia been invaded again. Nuclear technoligy was discussed, actually. I didn't want to invade Syria so made up the excuse about us working together to get reactors. You said that wasn't a concern, as you would give me the needed technoligy after the war. Also, if the German intel agency can't be trusted, then how can us two ambassadors be trusted? For all everyone else knows, we could be making this up.

Since that issue is settled (Elephantum's probably pissed at me and Germany for knowing about Turkey going to invade him and not telling), back to the nuclear topic. The reason the UR is concerned about Turkey getting nukes is because Turkey (as you've just told anyone) would be willing to invade Syria and end this conflict as soon as they get the opportunity. With nukes, they'd always have the opportunity and so a Turkish-Arab War would be inevitable and would probably ignite within a decade or so. Second of all, the Arab Federation's formation has added another potential military threat to Turkey, which, by 1970, could field a good sized army (not a German or SU sized army, but good-sized for the conflict area). A nuke to Baghdad could cripple this major threat as soon as a war erupted which would practically save the Turkish Alliance from destruction.

I've confirmed that if Syria had invaded Saudi Arabia, an ally, then yes, Turkey and the SU would have come to Saudi Arabia's aid as allies, which is more than you can say for Syria, as you've just confirmed.

If the UR gets bombs then Turkey gets bombs, if you don't want Turkey to have bombs then don't build any and Turkey won't need any. As far as bombing Baghdad? We haven't said anything about bombing Baghdad or any other city for that matter. All we've said is that if Egypt builds bombs so will Turkey following the policy of Deterance that Egypt loves so much.

Second of all, the Arab Federation's formation has added another potential military threat to Turkey, which, by 1970, could field a good sized army (not a German or SU sized army, but good-sized for the conflict area). A nuke to Baghdad could cripple this major threat as soon as a war erupted which would practically save the Turkish Alliance from destruction.

Are you threatening to destroy the Turkish alliance? This on top of your previous threat to bomb all of Turkeys major cities, and you wonder why Turkey is nervous about you building bombs.

Meaning you dont want me or Egypt getting our dirty little hands on it.

I dont suppose our new capability to build nukes (later this year) helps the matter.

EDIT: I think Idi Amin needs to take power, just because he's such a hilarious dictator.

Actually the US has no opinion on Jordan, other then hopefully the Middle East will stay peaceful to keep the price of gasoline at a reasonable level.

How do we know that Turkey won't use them offensively? The UR has shown it's ability to have WMD's and not use them, even when our dispatched forces are being beaten back. In fact, the only time we've ever given orders to even think about using chemical weapons was in case Egypt was directly invaded during (I believe) the first Saudi War. This was a move any nation would have made, considering the SU was providing direct support to Saudi Arabia and both Turkey and Saudi Arabia are just a boat-ride away from Egyptian major cities. The chemical weapons still wouldn't likely have been used, as Egyptians fish and eat out of that very same sea that would have been infected.

How about Turkey's responsibility with WMD's? They've never had any, and can barely maintain a basic army without making plans to invade different nations. They've conquered their way through creating multiple ME super-states and Egyptian officials have first-hand experience knowing that Turkey would have invaded Syria if that second invasion of Arabia would have happened. Turkey can not claim that Saudi Arabia was it's ally, for it has already proclaimed that the Arab League and Turkish Alliance are at odds. The AL never declared war on Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia never left or even suspended AL membership. In fact, the entire Arabian War never became an AL issue. It was US/UK/Germany/Syria trying to install Rashidis and the UR trying to install democracy. Never was the Turkish Alliance or Arab League even mentioned. Therefore, a Turkish invasion of Syria was a completely seperate topic and pure imperialistic ambitions on Turkey's part. I can already predict that you're going to say "the UR was being imperialistic for the German Bloc by invading Saudi Arabia" and the answer is that this is impossible, as the UR and Germany/Syria had contradicting views on how Arabia should be governed. They wanted a pro-German Rashidi government, which is why they were attempting a coup even after the cease-fire. The UR swore to defend them because not only did Germany not intervene in the previous war, but also because the Saudi Family was allowing democratic reforms.

Are you threatening to destroy the Turkish alliance? This on top of your previous threat to bomb all of Turkeys major cities, and you wonder why Turkey is nervous about you building bombs.

Actually potential military threat means "it has the potential to be a military threat". Not it is a military threat, not that it is planning on being a military threat, and I'm not sure what you have to be smoking to get that I said "I will destroy the Turkish Alliance". I also never threatened to bomb Turkey with nuclear weapons. I was simply explaining what deterrence means, as it appears your ambassador isn't up to speed on modern military strategies. Unless you plan on having a civilized debate without trying to twist every statement I make, consider this discussion complete.

How do we know that Turkey won't use them offensively? The UR has shown it's ability to have WMD's and not use them, even when our dispatched forces are being beaten back. In fact, the only time we've ever given orders to even think about using chemical weapons was in case Egypt was directly invaded during (I believe) the first Saudi War. This was a move any nation would have made, considering the SU was providing direct support to Saudi Arabia and both Turkey and Saudi Arabia are just a boat-ride away from Egyptian major cities. The chemical weapons still wouldn't likely have been used, as Egyptians fish and eat out of that very same sea that would have been infected.

How about Turkey's responsibility with WMD's? They've never had any, and can barely maintain a basic army without making plans to invade different nations. They've conquered their way through creating multiple ME super-states and Egyptian officials have first-hand experience knowing that Turkey would have invaded Syria if that second invasion of Arabia would have happened. Turkey can not claim that Saudi Arabia was it's ally, for it has already proclaimed that the Arab League and Turkish Alliance are at odds. The AL never declared war on Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia never left or even suspended AL membership. In fact, the entire Arabian War never became an AL issue. It was US/UK/Germany/Syria trying to install Rashidis and the UR trying to install democracy. Never was the Turkish Alliance or Arab League even mentioned. Therefore, a Turkish invasion of Syria was a completely seperate topic and pure imperialistic ambitions on Turkey's part. I can already predict that you're going to say "the UR was being imperialistic for the German Bloc by invading Saudi Arabia" and the answer is that this is impossible, as the UR and Germany/Syria had contradicting views on how Arabia should be governed. They wanted a pro-German Rashidi government, which is why they were attempting a coup even after the cease-fire. The UR swore to defend them because not only did Germany not intervene in the previous war, but also because the Saudi Family was allowing democratic reforms.

Chemical weapons and nuclear weapons are two completely different things. Turkey will not use them offensively, and Turkey will only arm itself with them after Egypt does so. As for Syria, Turkey was prepared to go to war with Syria if and only if Syria invaded Saudi Arabia, as was Egypt. The difference being, Egypt was allied to Syria at the time, but yet you admit you were willing to ignore that alliance and go to war with Syria if they invaded Saudi Arabia. This all was after you passed on intel on both Syria and Germany to us to help us if war were to break out.


consider this discussion complete.

I guess this discussion is complete. When Egypt builds its first bomb, two warheads will be delivered to Turkey along with the technology to build there own. For every further bomb built by Egypt, two more will be delivered to Turkey untill Egypt decides to stop porducing nuclear weaponry. If Egypt dismantles a bomb then Turkey will likewise dismantle two and so on and so forth.

Chemical weapons and nuclear weapons are two completely different things. Turkey will not use them offensively, and Turkey will only arm itself with them after Egypt does so. As for Syria, Turkey was prepared to go to war with Syria if and only if Syria invaded Saudi Arabia, as was Egypt. The difference being, Egypt was allied to Syria at the time, but yet you admit you were willing to ignore that alliance and go to war with Syria if they invaded Saudi Arabia. This all was after you passed on intel on both Syria and Germany to us to help us if war were to break out.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia were NEVER allied. The only connection Saudi Arabia had with Turkey would have been through you, and considering the number of spies overflowing the Saudi government at that time, no secret alliances between the two nations could have possibly been created without half the world knowing. Just because Turkey and Saudi Arabia were both allied to the SU doesn't make them allies. Both Egypt and Sudan were once under British control and have cooperated with the UK in multiple wars. I highly support their plans to free African colonies and should they ever be attacked, the UR wouldn't hesitate to aid them. But let's think about all of the UK's allies. The only time I ever see Australian and Canadian ambassadors are at UN meetings. They only time I cooperate with them is when they just happen to be on the same side as me. Another example would be Africa. I would support Nigeria and/or South Africa should they ever enter a war. Does that mean Syria is allies with them? How about Jordan? The whole "my enemy's enemy is my friend" thing doesn't apply to politics. I highly doubt Turkish soldiers would be happy to hear that they're going to die for Arabs, especially a nation called ARABia.

I guess this discussion is complete. When Egypt builds its first bomb, two warheads will be delivered to Turkey along with the technology to build there own. For every further bomb built by Egypt, two more will be delivered to Turkey untill Egypt decides to stop porducing nuclear weaponry. If Egypt dismantles a bomb then Turkey will likewise dismantle two and so on and so forth.

Wow, misquoting. You've truly sank to being one of the most pathetic debaters I've ever met. And you've just shown that this is just an excuse to arm Turkey with nuclear weapons. In order for mutually assured destruction to work, nations have to have the same amount of nuclear weapons. By you sending in two nuclear weapons per one of mine, you are guaranteeing an arms race, which I'm sure you're looking forward to. And don't bother trying to misquote this, there's this little thing called a scroll bar and readers can scroll up and see the TRUE and ENTIRE statement made by the speaker.

Misqouting? Where and how? Don't start throwing out insults. You are gauranteeing an arms race by building bombs in the first place knowing full well what the reaction will be, as far as MAD working, there wouldn't be a MAD if there weren't any bombs in the first, which there aren't now. I hope Egypt will be happy knowing that they will be the first nation in history to deploy nuclear weaponry in the Middle East.

If Egypt has the right to nuclear bombs then so does Turkey.

Japan would like to offer its services as a mediator in this conflict. We are willing to host a conference in Tokyo to resolve this dispute

OOC:
This is the quote you left:
consider this discussion complete.
And your response:
I guess this discussion is complete. When Egypt builds its first bomb, two warheads will be delivered to Turkey along with the technology to build there own.

The real quote:
Unless you plan on having a civilized debate without trying to twist every statement I make, consider this discussion complete.
Which was in response to you trying to twist my words to make me look like some sort of imperialistic psycho that would destroy the world just so I could get rid of a little alliance that I could care less about. If you want proof of those, just scroll up and read your posts about how you said I was planning on invading Turkey and nuking all of it's major cities when I was really just explaining to you the meaning of deterrence and that Turkey may see the Arab Federation as something that could disrupt the balance of powers in the Middle East.

And thank you, Japan, but I doubt it will do anything besides drag this debate on. This is the SU's big chance to deploy nuclear weapons and get an advantage over Germany. I'm sure now Germany will send nuclear weapons to Syria and all hell will break loose. This whole power struggle between them is really starting to piss me off.

Disregarding most of the previous debates, there is one issue the whole world should look at.

If Egypt or Syria were to develop a nuclear weapon, Scandanavia will provide two nuclear warheads to Turkey. Did we not all sign a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty saying that is exactly what we will not do?

Egypt and Syria's nuclear program, part of the Arab League, was funded solely by members, almost entirely by our two nations, although Baghdad provided limited funds as well. No other nation contributed. Joint-research programs were permitted by the treaty, but sales were not. Scandanavia has shown continued disrespect for the UN, its charter, and its decrees, and would call upon the UN to punish Turkey and the SU if any nuclear weapons are sold.

If Turkey has the rights to nuclear weapons, the so does Egypt, as well as Germany. If Turkey acquires nuclear weapons, then Germany will revive its nuclear weapons program and fully supply each Middle Eastern Base with nuclear weapons.

Germany considers any direct neighbor to a Middle Eastern country a violation of the agreement between the Scandic Union and Germany, and as such, Germany will be forced to violate that agreement.

However, if Scandinavia is willing to be civilized, like it was, and let Egypt have nuclear weapons, in a way similar to the way Scandinavia has nuclear weapons, then Germany will continue to hold its nuclear program frozen.

Germany also believes that Egypt has a right to nuclear weapons since it is not currently under any nuclear "umbrella," similar to the situation the SU is in. However, if the SU gives up its nuclear weapons program, then I believe that it would be appropriate for Egypt to cancel its nuclear program.

Should either of these cases be so (Egypt cancels its program) then Germany is willing to fully compensate the UR for the funds spent on the nuclear program.

It is the ultimate goal of Germany to keep the Middle East stable, and we believe that a nuclear armed UR is no reason to disrupt the uneasy stability that has recently fallen over the region.

If Egypt can build weapons then so can Turkey. Any weapons placed in Turkey will be under SU, not Turkish control. If Egypt does not build weapons, then there will be no weapons in Turkey, but if Egypt has the right to build weapons then so does Turkey. If a nuclear armed UR is no reason to disrupt the uneasy stability that has recently fallen over the region, then a nuclear armed Turkey should be no problem.

OOC: We desperately need some sort of OOC back channel communication at this point, beyond TGs. With Chatzy down for the forseeable future, anyone have any ideas?

EDIT:

"English is not my first language, but it seems to me that the SU is being very unclear. Turkey will have its own, independent, nuclear program, under Scandic control? Could you please clarify what you mean? If Turkey wants to develop nuclear weapons, it has the same right of every nation here, although, hopefully, they will follow our lead and put regional stability first.

Turkey, the SU, and UR all fear a lack of a "nuclear umbrella" as it is called by some. While all are protected by the Eisenhower Doctrine, this is not something many nations put full trust in. Would the US "nuke" Canada, showering their own people with radiation, because of a Canadian attack on Stockholm? on Cairo? In theory, Turkey falls under the protection of Scandanavia's "umbrella." Germany, Egypt, Syria, and many other nations do not.

Perhaps we can look to a historical situation (ooc: can't guarantee this happened in our timeline, but still). In the early 1900's, both England and Germany guaranteed to defend Belgium if attacked. This kept Belgium safe not only from the outside world, but from thier protectors as well. Perhaps that is a scheme we should employ here. If two nuclear powers, who have no defense agreements with each other, guarantee the safety from nuclear attack of the nations present, both sides should be protected.

Germany also reminds Scandinavia that under UN laws, nuclear weapons may be used in the case of an aggressive invasion by a belligerent nation. Meaning, Egypt may use a nuke if it or its allies gets invaded, and it will not break any UN laws.

Thus, unless Turkey is about to invade the Arab League, then Turkey has no reason to fear nuclear weapons in Egypt.

Should Syria or the Arabian Federation attack Turkey then it is a very real fear. What need does Egypt have for nukes? There is absolutely no one within a thousand miles who has a nuclear weapon, but yet Egypt insists on building them. Why? What is the point? what is the point of having nuclear deterance when no one around you has nuclear weapons? Granted, if Egypt had a neighbor that was much larger than it and dwarfed it in size then nuclear deterence might be nesecary, but as it stands now, the UR is the most populous, biggest nation in the Middle East.

The Kennedy Administration reminds Germany that under the peace treaty ending its participation of the Third Great War, Germany gave up the right to have or deploy nuclear weapons.

ooc
which may or may not be true

OOC: We desperately need some sort of OOC back channel communication at this point, beyond TGs. With Chatzy down for the forseeable future, anyone have any ideas?

OOC: We really do, we could use some sort of IM service if everyone has the same service.

Parthini']Germany also reminds Scandinavia that under UN laws, nuclear weapons may be used in the case of an aggressive invasion by a belligerent nation. Meaning, Egypt may use a nuke if it or its allies gets invaded, and it will not break any UN laws.

Thus, unless Turkey is about to invade the Arab League, then Turkey has no reason to fear nuclear weapons in Egypt.

The Egyptian ambassador has told the SU this multiple times. We are done arguing with them. The UR will test it's first nuclear weapon before the end of next year. If the SU plans to throw the world into a nuclear arms race then so be it. They are the ones breaking the Non-Proliferation Treaty. The SU must decide now whether it wishes for peace or nuclear war.

ooc: AIM work?

A larger nation that dwarfs Egypt in size can be found directly to the left of Egypt on that map over there, Italy. A larger nation, with a more powerful navy, borders on two of the Republics, and a strong Catholic ruling party, upset about recent territorial losses (Corsica). Many new nations are gaining independence from Britain soon, who can guarantee they will continue British democratic traditions? Greece has shown willing to recreate its ancient empire, which includes parts of the UR, Syria, and Turkey.

(ooc: see edited post above)

That is fine. When that bomb goes off the Scandic Union will begin moving parts of its nuclear command over to Turkey. The bombs will remain under Scandic control and so will not be in violation of the NPT, they will just be based out of Turkey. The Scandic Union will not use these weapons offensively.

Should Turkey begin producing its own bombs then that is out of our control.

(OOC: Turkey is very close to being able to produce bombs, they have peacefull reactor nuclear tech, so I think they'd only have to put 12?(Not sure of the exact number?) points into research to be able to build bombs. They've just never had the reason to pursue bomb tech before.

EDIT:Aim is fine, vhayek18

Germany decides to back off and leave the situation to be a Middle Eastern one. However, Germany reaffirms its stance that if an Arab League member is attacked, Germany will immediately come to their aid.

Germany also politely asks the UR to not detonate its weapon, but to leave all of their bombs intact to as to cancel any effects of potential radiation poisoning.

Egypt would like to discuss Turkey's aggressiveness towards the UR. What is the reasoning behind it? What has the UR done to harm or threaten Turkey? This entire affair seems irrational.

VERY IMPORTANT (though its secret IC)

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10935631&postcount=214

It will probably decide the entire future of civilization in Earth in our E20 universe (not an overstatement or exaggeration).

VERY IMPORTANT (though its secret IC)

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10935631&postcount=214

It will probably decide the entire future of civilization in Earth in our E20 universe (not an overstatement or exaggeration).

ooc
ironically, the US just yesterday secretly provided a projection identical to that to various nations (chuckle)

Mauritiania is a UN Mandate under Moroccan control, and Morocco provides its social services. The US would push to simply add it to Morocco as its not an economically viable state (too few resources, no basis even to build industry on)

for similar reasons, the US recommends that Mali be part of a union of Senegal, Guinea Bissau, and Gambia, and that Nigeria incorporate Niger.

The US recommends that the Ivory Coast, Sierra Leon, and Liberia remain independent as they have different histories and cultures from the others, and do have their own industrial base. As does Ghana, which the US recommends being left alone as well and being allowed to incorporate Burkina Fasa (which also lacks an economic base).

ooc
the nations recommended for annexation are all on the transition zone between the Sahara and Subsaharan Africa, and historically have huge issues with overgrazing because they lack the industrial base, economic base and resource base to really do much to help themselves and even with massive UN aid have not been able to improve much.

That still leaves Chad, which would probably benefit under Nigerian control.

Nigeria would gladly welcome the people of Niger into the fold. As it is, Nigeria is already providing them social services.

Another important announcement:

I'm talking with a prospective player by the name of Greill who has expressed interest in playing with us here in E20. He told he wants to play the Ukraine, and he's giving me a sample of his RP / writing so if all checks out, I'd like to have him join us.

Another important announcement:

I'm talking with a prospective player by the name of Greill who has expressed interest in playing with us here in E20. He told he wants to play the Ukraine, and he's giving me a sample of his RP / writing so if all checks out, I'd like to have him join us.

we could definitely use a Ukraine.. its a major regional power

Mauritiania is a UN Mandate under Moroccan control, and Morocco provides its social services. The US would push to simply add it to Morocco as its not an economically viable state (too few resources, no basis even to build industry on)

for similar reasons, the US recommends that Mali be part of a union of Senegal, Guinea Bissau, and Gambia, and that Nigeria incorporate Niger.

The US recommends that the Ivory Coast, Sierra Leon, and Liberia remain independent as they have different histories and cultures from the others, and do have their own industrial base. As does Ghana, which the US recommends being left alone as well and being allowed to incorporate Burkina Fasa (which also lacks an economic base).

ooc
the nations recommended for annexation are all on the transition zone between the Sahara and Subsaharan Africa, and historically have huge issues with overgrazing because they lack the industrial base, economic base and resource base to really do much to help themselves and even with massive UN aid have not been able to improve much.

That still leaves Chad, which would probably benefit under Nigerian control.

The Fourth Republic of France echos these recomendations and wishes the African nations an era of prosperity once these are achieved. The contuation of payment for social services is reaffirmed.

OOC: What is the population of the Senegal Union?

More Secret Project results:

Russia

The various independence movements start to get more uppity, especially in Bellorussia. Several large demonstrations start to turn into riots when a discreet police presence is noticed by some members. Violence quickly breaks out as one of the police units finds itself surrounded and is forced to fight its way out with batons. A night of window breaking, brawling and running fights with police occurs. The police cells are full of those charged with assault, civil disobedience and criminal damage. More than 500 arrests are made and tens of millions of dollars damage is done.

The local authorities say that this is a localised incident started by a minority of troublemakers in the crowd and that these individuals have been detained. They place the police presence much further away in future gatherings.

Belgian Congo

Several acts of criminal damage and arson are reported on government buildings in the rural areas. The Belgians are forced to withdraw their staff from several villages and townships after unconcealed threats of violence. The presumed objective is to promote an independence movement. The Belgians do not stand idle and begin several sweeps of the areas concerned for the attackers. In one instance they come across what has been described as a "training complex organised by insurgents". The men there were alerted to the Belgians and beat a hasty retreat. They seemed to be largely of local origin though one eyewitness states that he saw a man of Chinese descent who seemed to be the leader of the rest, though this report is unconfirmed and based on a fraction of a second's view.

Greece and Italy

Some pro-democratic groups begin to pick up followers, though they are hounded by the intelligence agencies of the relevent nations. They remain small, but vocal, groups in local politics.

------------

OOC: Just catching up on TGs again after missing a night due to my 18th birthday yesterday (Wednesday) and having to buy a few rounds at the pub for everyone!

Space missions should hopefully be resolved later today or tomorrow and the rest of my TGs (enquiries etc) shortly after. Sorry for the delay.

Britain supports the US plans for Commonwealth Africa but would enquire of the other Commonwealth nations (and the nations themselves) first.

Britain also makes public that it has received note that the United Republics have made an offer to take over the Republic of Uganda. Britain is intitially against this intention in that it believes that Uganda has teh potential to be a powerful nation in Africa in it's own right. Britain also feels that Uganda would prefer to remain an independent country so soon after ceding peacefully from the Empire. Though international advice is sought on the matter.

OOC: What is the population of the Senegal Union?

1958 RL population figures:

Mali - 3,868,000
Senegal - 3,035,000
Guinea Bissau - 519,000
Gambia - 312,000

though with an (almost) industrialised Africa these should be reduced slightly to account for a lower birth rate.

New (and much improved) British Thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482051

New (and much improved) British Thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482051

Added.

By the way links to the EEC and ESA threads would be much appreciated (so I can put them up in the "Alliances" section).

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT:

I've reviewed Greill's stuff and I would like to announce that he is more than welcome to play / RP in E20 with the rest of us. His writing is pretty good, actually- novel quality stuff.

So please welcome Greill into E20, guys. :)

Greill, feel free to ask any of us questions if you're not sure about the game mechanics and current geo-political situation in E20.

The UR wishes to arrange a 10-year pact with Turkey. We do not wish to ignite a nuclear arms race, but at the same time we do not wish to strip Turkey of it's right to create and maintain nuclear weapons. The pact details are:
-No more than 50 nuclear weapons held by either nation (which is already plenty, anyway)
-The nuclear weapons will not be used aggressively by either nation
-The UR will not give nuclear weapons to any Arab nations
-Turkey will not give nuclear weapons to any Turkish nations
-The UR will not launch an aggressive war against Turkey
-Turkey will not launch an aggressive war against the UR

Besides the non-proliferation part, this pact does not involve our alliances. It does not restrict Turkey from invading the Arab League (except the UR) and does not ban nuclear weapons from either nation.

So please welcome Greill into E20, guys.

Finally, some new blood. Our proverbial gene pool was getting a little shallow.

Welcome, Greill.

As the only other nation with nuclear capability in the region, Syria would ask to join this pact, providing a guarantee of complete safety for all three nations.

(OOC: Both of you have almost invaded me in the past, can't have you getting too friendly all by yourselves.)

The UR wishes to arrange a 10-year pact with Turkey. We do not wish to ignite a nuclear arms race, but at the same time we do not wish to strip Turkey of it's right to create and maintain nuclear weapons. The pact details are:
-No more than 50 nuclear weapons held by either nation (which is already plenty, anyway)
-The nuclear weapons will not be used aggressively by either nation
-The UR will not give nuclear weapons to any Arab nations
-Turkey will not give nuclear weapons to any Turkish nations
-The UR will not launch an aggressive war against Turkey
-Turkey will not launch an aggressive war against the UR

Besides the non-proliferation part, this pact does not involve our alliances. It does not restrict Turkey from invading the Arab League (except the UR) and does not ban nuclear weapons from either nation.

OOC: I think Turkey would accept this, Parthini has final say as NPC mod but I don't know why the Turks wouldn't take it so unless Parthini says different then consider it accepted.

The Turks agree to let Syria in.

The German Ambassador also reassures the Grand Emir of the Arab Federation that Germany will still be maintaining both military bases in Syria and in Damman.

OOC: Hey everybody. I'm going to be playing the Ukraine. I hope to have a lot of fun playing with you all. ;) I have a basic grasp of what I'm supposed to do, but could someone help me, if possible, so that I don't screw up anything egregiously? Thank you. :)

welcome to the game. Any questions you need answered right now?

welcome to the game. Any questions you need answered right now?

Just how to get my economy started up, really, and basic game mechanics. I can do all the creative stuff easily, I just want to stay within game rules.

Also, uber-important, my game thread. http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482131

Just how to get my economy started up, really, and basic game mechanics. I can do all the creative stuff easily, I just want to stay within game rules.

For starters, you should look at the Economic Thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10559619#post10559619). That should explain how to do your economy, and you can look at other people's yearly economies (which we call "builds") to get an idea as to how to put everything together.

I'm the Economic Moderator, by the way, so if you have any questions please feel free to send me a TG. Galveston Bay is also able to answer questions, as the system was introduced and applied to E20 by him.

Other important threads, including the Military Thread, the United Nations, and individual nations' threads are all linked to in the first post of this thread.

Your last economy thing should be buried somewere in the Economy thread, I know you're recieving lots of aid from the SU, and your economy is pretty strong. As for economy, it's kind of confusing at first, and I really can't explain it, so I'd suggest you try to get a 1959 budget up and we can check it

OOC: Hey everybody. I'm going to be playing the Ukraine. I hope to have a lot of fun playing with you all. ;) I have a basic grasp of what I'm supposed to do, but could someone help me, if possible, so that I don't screw up anything egregiously? Thank you. :)

Hey, welcome.

I just sent you a TG with some basic background of whats up with the Ukraine, I can go into more detail if you have any questions. But anyawy, I play as the Scandic Union and I'm the one whose been handling the Ukraine's economy and military since it's been an NPC, I'll get you that info tommorrow, or later tonight if I get the time. Japan's right, the Ukraine is pretty solid right now, a strong military and a solid economy that is expanding, although your going to need oil soon, but I'll explain that more when I get you the builds and stuff.

Added Greill as the player of Ukraine and also added his Ukraine thread in the list of nations in the main post.

Looking forward to have you [Greill] play with us and you can look forward to an awesome time with the E20 community.

Hello Greill, Glad to have you aboard with, Of course If you have any questions you could try the relevent mod, or if you like I could somewhat answer some of your questions.

EEC/ESA Thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479899

-------------------------

Welcome to E20 Greill, I know you'll enjoy the experience, some of us have been in from the very start (about 3 main threads, and tens of thousands of posts ago) and can't bear to be without it!

If you need anything answered in respect to the military system don't hesitate to contact me or Galveston Bay, we'll answer any enquiry you have (unless it's about planes, i'm not a fan of aircraft, GB deals with those!).

Anyway, enjoy yourself...

Secret IC:

China enters alliance talks with the Scandic Union citing several concerns.

(Not even the SCT members, Germany, or other Chinese allies or friends know about this.)

Deleted because it's in the wrong thread.

Nigerian Build, 1958

Tech Level 6

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Growth: 4% (3% for spending + 1% for economic bloc [Commonwealth])

Population: 35 million

Income

Eight industrial centers (Three at Lagos, Three at Abuja, one at Port Harcourt, one at Sokoto. 16 points)
Nineteen Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)
Foriegn Aid from Brazil (12 points)

TOTAL: 64 points

Domestic Spending

Level III Social Spending: 10 points

Production Center: 24 points

Level III Social Services for Benin and Niger: 4.5 points

Intelligence Agency: 5 Points

Sub-Total: 49

Military Upkeep

2xHighly Trained Motorized Division: .1.5 points
1xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Light Infantry Division: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5 points
1xElite Marine Brigade: .75 points
1xExpert Pilot: .25 points
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25 points
1xDestroyer Flotilla: .25 points
1xLight Missile Cruiser: .5 points
1xBAC Lightning Unit: 1 point

Sub-Total: 6.5

Military Spending

Upgrade One Infantry Division to Motorized Division: 1 point


1xHQ Unit: 4 (8/10)

Sub-total: 4 point

TOTAL: 62 points

Trade Assignment

Four Units to South Africa

Four Units to the United Kingdom

Four Units to Germany

Four to the United States

Two to Brazil

Oil Points
One to the UK

Two to South Africa

One to Nigeria

One to Brazil

Energy

One oil point for 6.75 points of military units.

One natural gas point for 8 Production Centers.

Heh...

(gently nudges Kilani in the direction of the Economic thread)

;)

Holy crap, did I post this in the wrong thread? Well, that's what I get for using multiple tabs to navigate Jolt...

Just posted Ukraine's first build, as of 1959, with the help of Safehaven2. I suppose I'll put the first event on Monday, as that will be when the new year will be starting.

Just posted Ukraine's first build, as of 1959, with the help of Safehaven2. I suppose I'll put the first event on Monday, as that will be when the new year will be starting.

Looking forward to it, Greill. :)

anyone know what happens with reduced tarrifs? Is there any economic benefit, or is it just symbolic?

Also, what's the deal with chatzy? Is it still not working?

anyone know what happens with reduced tarrifs? Is there any economic benefit, or is it just symbolic?

Also, what's the deal with chatzy? Is it still not working?

tarrifs aren't really factored in because of the headaches involved, but I suppose I could create something if needed or desired.

tarrifs aren't really factored in because of the headaches involved, but I suppose I could create something if needed or desired.

I was just wondering because of my agreement with Ukraine, and I was just wondering if this meant anything.

Thanks to Greill we now have a name for the alliance organization between the SU, Poland, the Ukraine and the Turkics. The Central Security and Prosperity Sphere, or CSPS.

Thanks to Greill we now have a name for the alliance organization between the SU, Poland, the Ukraine and the Turkics. The Central Security and Prosperity Sphere, or CSPS.

Can we have a thread too? :D

Nevermind, I made it myself. http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10957803#post10957803

I need to know a few things.

1. Any word on whether China stands to gain from improved hydro / reduced hydro pollution controls "earlier" according to my diagrams and reasoning I posted earlier?

I figure, improve the hydro limits to -1% growth for every 240 production centers powered by hydro power.

2. Any word on whether China can start researching electric cars, more alternative fuels, fusion power (the basic groundwork and theoretical stuff so that an actual fusion power plant could possibly be built by 2000 or so instead of 2050), improved ethanol fuels, wind farms, etc.

The reasoning behind that is the report I RP'ed out in my China thread, and the pure necessity that China has for these alternative energy sources or risk the world having no oil by 1990 - 2000, meaning no more modern civilization as we know it beyond that decade. If Chinese engineers and scientists drafted that report in 1958, it gives China at least 3 decades to work on alternative energy before there's no more oil at all in Earth.

Meaning no oil for USA, UK, Germany, China, Korea, Japan, and all the industrialized nations in E20 past 1990 or so, considering that in E20, China will end up consuming oil at 3x or 4x the rate the RL USA does in 2000 - 2010.

I need to know a few things.

1. Any word on whether China stands to gain from improved hydro / reduced hydro pollution controls "earlier" according to my diagrams and reasoning I posted earlier?

I figure, improve the hydro limits to -1% growth for every 240 production centers powered by hydro power.

2. Any word on whether China can start researching electric cars, more alternative fuels, fusion power (the basic groundwork and theoretical stuff so that an actual fusion power plant could possibly be built by 2000 or so instead of 2050), improved ethanol fuels, wind farms, etc.

The reasoning behind that is the report I RP'ed out in my China thread, and the pure necessity that China has for these alternative energy sources or risk the world having no oil by 1990 - 2000, meaning no more modern civilization as we know it beyond that decade. If Chinese engineers and scientists drafted that report in 1958, it gives China at least 3 decades to work on alternative energy before there's no more oil at all in Earth.

Meaning no oil for USA, UK, Germany, China, Korea, Japan, and all the industrialized nations in E20 past 1990 or so, considering that in E20, China will end up consuming oil at 3x or 4x the rate the RL USA does in 2000 - 2010.


I will get to it this week

also remember, its unlikely other nations will sacrifice their access to oil so you can have it

I will get to it this week

also remember, its unlikely other nations will sacrifice their access to oil so you can have it

Thats yet another reason why I'm doing the research and report (all IC).

Even if other nations refuse to allow China access to oil, the oil *will* run out much sooner in E20 than in RL anyway, as the SU, Africa, South America, Australia, and Asian nations (India, USEA, Korea, Philippines, etc.) all have much larger economies and much more industrialized than in RL.

Example: (Not necessarily what will happen point-wise in E20)

Assume the world market has 50 oil points available at peak production.

China = 10
USA = 10
UK = 5
Germany = 5
South America = 5
India = 5
Other nations = 10

That uses up the world market, so we'll have a serious oil problem one way or another, regardless of whether China hogs all the world's oil or not.

If anyone in Europe needs natural gas, coal or electricity (Hydro and nuclear) I have a large excess of most of these and could be persuaded to part with some energy points in exchange for production points and a shared cost of any pipelines needing to be built.

Can we have the CSPS thread added to the alliance listing?

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482568

Can we have the CSPS thread added to the alliance listing?

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482568

Added.

Also turned over the year.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482531

new thread

That uses up the world market, so we'll have a serious oil problem one way or another, regardless of whether China hogs all the world's oil or not.

yep

apparently Chatzy is dead, sigh

Chatzy.com has been down for more than a week and we are deeply sorry.


Some time ago, our hosting company (Managed.com) was bought by another hosting provider by the name of WebHostPlus. WebHostPlus wanted to move all Managed.com servers to their location, which, in theory, should only have caused a couple of hours of downtime, had the migration process been carried out professionally.


Unfortunately, it seems that WebHostPlus is not a very professional company. On May 6, our server was taken offline and our harddisks were apparently moved to the new location. Since then WebHostPlus has been having great difficult getting us - and a lot of other web sites - online again.


We are deeply sorry for this disturbance in our service. We are doing everything we can (which unfortunately is not much since we are highly dependent on our hosting provider) to get Chatzy up and running again. Once Chatzy is back, we will take appropriate measures to assure that down-time like this will not happen again.


If you wish, you can read how we and a lot of other fustrated webmasters complain here:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508358



That explains why Chatzy has been down for a while now.

A few Intel notes:

PORTUGAL

The situation in Portugal is now stabilised, elections have been held and a president, Senate and House of Representatives put into place. The British forces have almost fully withdrawn, leaving just the Brazilians and US forces left. The Portuguese army states that soon it will be able to take over full policing and defence duties but that it would welcome a continued foriegn presence (US, UK and/or Brazil) in the form of an international military base near to Lisbon.

RUSSIA

The Siberian independence Party is becoming very agitated and several massive rallies are held to show its dedication to its aims of liberationg Siberia from the Russian motherland. The Siberians believe that they would do much better without submitting to an overall Russia, their vast oil fields, minerals and large tracts of good agricultural land should support them and allow their economy to develop.

They send a delegate to the UN to ask for support in their objectives, several messages are sent to foreign sources also asking for assistance, though they point out that any overt moves may cause an international incident.

Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament

The members of this group are spurred on by an article by JB Priestly in New Statesman entitled Russia, the Atom and the West, which heavily advocates nuclear disarmament. Several demonsrations are made around the world including:

-A march from Trafalgar Square to Atomic Weapons Establishment, Aldermaston, UK. As well as at HMNB Clyde where the submarine nuclear deterrent is based.
-Demonstrations at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, USA
-Demonstrations at Studsvik, Scandic Union, outside the weapons development facility there (OOC: I guessed that this would be a nuclear site, it was proposed for a potential Swedish development site in the 1950's)

Also some demonstrations in the FNS and other nuclear capable countries.

The CND protestors also begin to enter politics and several independent parties are formed in the nuclear capable nations in a bid to try to reduce the number of weapons.

Finally the CND raises enough funds to commission a yacht in Australia which is put to use looking for evidence of nuclear tests in the Pacific and to sail around any areas which are expected to be used in the near future and hence attempt to dissuade their useage.

Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament

<snip>

Finally the CND raises enough funds to commission a yacht in Australia which is put to use looking for evidence of nuclear tests in the Pacific and to sail around any areas which are expected to be used in the near future and hence attempt to dissuade their useage.

They will likely receive assistance from New Zealanders who are already beginning to lean toward "green" in Australian elections.

Protests related to or directly connected to the CND are rare in Syria, as the government recently reaffirmed they would not seek nuclear weapons, even though the capability is in place. However, in some areas, especially Lebanon, they have considerable support.

Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament

Finally the CND raises enough funds to commission a yacht in Australia which is put to use looking for evidence of nuclear tests in the Pacific and to sail around any areas which are expected to be used in the near future and hence attempt to dissuade their useage.

can they call it the rainbow warrior like Greenpeace did?

Also, a note for those who might not notice:

Syria's flag has been replaced with the one that IRL was used by Iraq between 1963 and 1991, similar to current but without writing. The two stars on the original flag stood for Syria and Lebanon in this timeline. The third star represents the new state of North Palestine. OOCly speaking, can the AF use the RL Saudi flag to avoid confusion? I highly doubt it will come out, but just in case.

The US announces that it will put into place a 5 year moratorium on atmospheric nuclear testing, and urges other nations to do the same.

ooc
of course its easy for the US to do so, it has plenty of places to do underground nuclear testing and a pretty fully developed nuclear arsenal.