NationStates Jolt Archive

when did you get the Viggens? Not available until 1968 and thats a lot of points at once, even for you

Eh what year is it? I though we were time warping to 1970...

Yes, we are, he just wants to make sure you weren't buying Viggens in your builds before 1968.

Yes, we are, he just wants to make sure you weren't buying Viggens in your builds before 1968.

But we time warped to 1970 around two weeks ago, whats going on?

No we didn't. Read the first page, the writing in red. Basically there was a little break. We had a time freeze, and jump at the same time.

GB: Email

LR, if you're still on, get on Chatzy.

Parthini']LR, if you're still on, get on Chatzy.

somebody post the chatzy link, I don't have it at my office

LR, check your thread.

http://www.chatzy.com/921930878279

http://www.chatzy.com/921930878279

Whittlesfield: Done, sorry I must have missed the posts earlier.

Oh so the time freeze means I didn't miss as much as I thought. Good.

GB: several e-mails, all pertaining to the same thing. Read them all before replying please

Columbia is anouncing the formation of the(Don't have a name yet...) which is to be an economic and defense treaty based around the Pacific. The nations of Australia, Columbia and the FNS have already agreed to this treaty, while invitations are extended to the Japanese and Indonesians. Plans to expand to include the Philipines and perhaps Russia and Malaysia are also made.

Columbia is anouncing the formation of the(Don't have a name yet...) which is to be an economic and defense treaty based around the Pacific. The nations of Australia, Columbia and the FNS have already agreed to this treaty, while invitations are extended to the Japanese and Indonesians. Plans to expand to include the Philipines and perhaps Russia and Malaysia are also made.

It appears we have a nemesis.

Why? The SSA wasn't considered a deep threat. *South Sea's Alliance for those who didn't pay attention.* SO why should this be?

Columbia is anouncing the formation of the(Don't have a name yet...) which is to be an economic and defense treaty based around the Pacific. The nations of Australia, Columbia and the FNS have already agreed to this treaty, while invitations are extended to the Japanese and Indonesians. Plans to expand to include the Philipines and perhaps Russia and Malaysia are also made.

While Japan agrees to economic cooperation, at the current time we are not pursuing a military alliance with other nations (and plus, I think ATO would be a much wiser choice if I wanted a defense pact).

I have returned.

While Japan agrees to economic cooperation, at the current time we are not pursuing a military alliance with other nations (and plus, I think ATO would be a much wiser choice if I wanted a defense pact).

OOC: Your now Japan?


IC: Columbia points out that the(Don't have a name) could provide much better protection than the ATO. It is pointed out that the most advanced technology and most powerfull weapons in the world are designed and employed by the members of the(Really need a name), mainly Columbia and the FNS. Also pointed out is the large naval superiority held over the ATO. Finally Japan is told it is all or nothing, either economic and the defense clause or neither

While Japan agrees to economic cooperation, at the current time we are not pursuing a military alliance with other nations (and plus, I think ATO would be a much wiser choice if I wanted a defense pact).

the Japanese Industrialists disagree and pressure the Japanese government to ally with Columbia, who after all are the same North Americans who crushed Japan during the Third Great War and crushed the SCT a mere few years ago. These men, who are contemptious of China and its ambitions, and in fact view China as incapable of acting in its own best interest, have no desire whatsoever to return to any relationship other then commerce with the Chinese. The Americans may be dangerous, but they at least act in their interests consistently

Election money is funnelled by the billions to get the "right" candidates into office at the next election.

ooc
Japan is frequently called Japan Inc for a reason

How about the PPR. Pacific Protection Rim? There's your name.

the Japanese Industrialists disagree and pressure the Japanese government to ally with Columbia, who after all are the same North Americans who crushed Japan during the Third Great War and crushed the SCT a mere few years ago. These men, who are contemptious of China and its ambitions, and in fact view China as incapable of acting in its own best interest, have no desire whatsoever to return to any relationship other then commerce with the Chinese. The Americans may be dangerous, but they at least act in their interests consistently

Election money is funnelled by the billions to get the "right" candidates into office at the next election.

OOC: Oh, I thought he was ColOmbia. That will make a big difference.

IC: Upon "reconsidering", Japan agrees to fully participate in the Pacific Alliance.

OOC2: GB, what companies are in the Zaibatsu? Is it the same as it's RL counterpart? I know it doesn't make a difference, I was just wondering.

New Japanese Factbook (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11515220)

OOC: Oh, I thought he was ColOmbia. That will make a big difference.

IC: Upon "reconsidering", Japan agrees to fully participate in the Pacific Alliance.

OOC2: GB, what companies are in the Zaibatsu? Is it the same as it's RL counterpart? I know it doesn't make a difference, I was just wondering.

same men and same companies.. ruthless in their way too

Parthini and the other mods say that I can come back into E20. So I have chosen to be Algeria. I just wanted to know if I can be Algeria.

Algeria is an NPC so I suppose you can, although you will have to find some of the earlier builds and mod help to get a sense of where it is right now...(like that for all NPC nations).

I was wondering who was doing the builds for Algeria before. Also I could be Morocco.

Parthini and the other mods say that I can come back into E20. So I have chosen to be Algeria. I just wanted to know if I can be Algeria.

Algeria is fine.. I will see what I can find regarding builds tonight or tomorrow.. you won't be doing your builds this year, but can beginning 1971 (next monday)

I have a lot on my plate so if someone else finds the builds that would be handy.. Abbesinia is probably the best choice, as he last played Algeria as a PC nation

Parthini and the other mods say that I can come back into E20. So I have chosen to be Algeria. I just wanted to know if I can be Algeria.

da hell.... and I thought the Twilight War was the end of the world...

da hell.... and I thought the Twilight War was the end of the world...

Now children, be nice.

AIDS is finally noticed... but not accurately

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11518534&postcount=1412

In the words of western intellects,

Bummer

Ahhh the wonders if a new disease. I gather countries that discover it's not radiation sickness will be those that didn't have any radiation hit them. Like AUstralasia, so it'd be a thought like. "Wait a second, we didn't have massive radiation, so why is our non-Chinese population acting like they have similar symptoms?"

Just a thought.

AIDS is finally noticed... but not accurately

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11518534&postcount=1412

Shit...South Africa is AIDS' bitch in RL.

Ahhh the wonders if a new disease. I gather countries that discover it's not radiation sickness will be those that didn't have any radiation hit them. Like AUstralasia, so it'd be a thought like. "Wait a second, we didn't have massive radiation, so why is our non-Chinese population acting like they have similar symptoms?"

Just a thought.

the extremely long incubation period for AIDS symptoms is also a huge reason the disease will take a while to be identified

Oppression and misery in South Asia

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=495383

will post more throughout the day... no reacting to events yet, you people have sent me enough orders for now, and guerilla / low intensity war is slow paced to say the least

UHHH that's not good.

GB if you can't find Algeria's build I will take the Netherlands.

Yeah finding NPC countries builds is hard.

LR and Abbassia, if you're still on do you guys have time for Chatzy?

I'm still trying to find Algeria's build, but the Netherland's build has been kepted up to date. Or I could be a another nation.

I'm still trying to find Algeria's build, but the Netherland's build has been kepted up to date. Or I could be a another nation.

Ask Sharina via TG.

Ask Sharina what? I'm confused by what you mean.

Ask Sharina what? I'm confused by what you mean.

Ask him if you can be the Netherlands, or another country besides Algeria, since no one can seem it's last build.

Ask Sharina what? I'm confused by what you mean.

Ask him the builds for Algeria, or you could make one up within reasonable boundries and have it approved

Uhh you can do that?

Ok, thanks for answering my question.

Uhh you can do that?

As long as it's reasonable and gets approved

Gotcha.

On Febuary 12, 1970 Ministers from South Africa, Britain and Germany meet in Windhoek to discuss the reworking of the Treaty of Daresalaam. At the meeting, all three agree that the ToD has many good points, but bumps with Germany have caused it to fraction multiple times. Now however, with closer ties in the EEC and closer ties with South Africa due to immigration, the three nations have agreed to re-ratify the treaty.

However, and most importantly, all three have agreed to expand the signatures past the three of them. After the signing, all three agree to let other nations sign. Included in the invitation are members of the EEC, hoping that it can be a treaty to solidify the ties of Europe, as well as EEC allies. Thus:

EEC
Huron
New England
Dixie
Texas
Mexico
Arab Federation
United Islamic Republic
Any member of the Commonwealth of Nations
Jerusalem
Syria
Ethiopia
Congo
Iceland

are specifically invited to join. Other nations are informed that if they wish to further their ties with the EEC or CoN that they should apply for signatory status.

The Goal of the Treaty of Daresalaam is to provide a mutual protection for all signatories as well as to further the cause of World Peace. The Treaty of Daresalaam does not specify that other treaties are invalid, but hopes that all treaties might be treated as quests for peace and thus equal to the ToD. It also specifies that, like the EEC, no memeber is a lesser to any other member, and even members such as Liechtenstein are invited and welcomed, as long as their goals are paramount to the universal goal of World Peace and Brotherhood.

No Asian countries I see. THough of course it's worried about China and India so... that makes sense.

No Asian countries I see. THough of course it's worried about China and India so... that makes sense.

UIR and Basra

Aren't really Asian. Culturally. Anymore than RUssia is.

Indonesia and Malaysia were. They're CoN. I think Burma is Commonwealth too...

Ahhh Commonwealth. Oh well, I prefer to deal with each individual country anyways. That doesn't get outlawed by this does it? I don't think it does.

Ok I got a TG from Sharina and I can be the Netherlands. I already found the build on the Economic page. Also thank you Ato-Sara for keeping Netherlands up to date.

Chatzy down for anyone else?

Hey another EEC member! Hello there :)

It's acting up for me

China: TG

I was wondering what ever happened to French Guiana and Frances carribean possesions. I mean, the map says that they belong to the FNS, but that makes no sense; why would a bunch of French people (and Dutch and Englishmen, for that matter), who speak no Spanish, join a union of Latin-American countries?

Here is my thread

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11524517#post11524517

I was wondering what ever happened to French Guiana and Frances carribean possesions. I mean, the map says that they belong to the FNS, but that makes no sense; why would a bunch of French people (and Dutch and Englishmen, for that matter), who speak no Spanish, join a union of Latin-American countries?

French lost their possessions during 2nd and 3rd Great Wars as the FNS took them, Dutch still have Surinam, and British still have their Caribbean territories..

Only Martinique and Guadaloupe remain of the French Carribean territories. Both are currently directly administered by the UK. They are likely to remain so until the end of this RP, as in RL France which still controls them as overseas territories.

So I control Suriname, but don't get any points from it?

I granted British Guyana independence many years ago and it immediately voted to join the FNS for some reason. I think there was a big incentive for it to do so, but can't remember what.

Lots of points and the fact that French Guyana had joined and that FNS had just bought Suriname from the Dutch.

Also, St Martinique and Guadeloupe are FNS territories. From waaaaay back. I have had troops stationed there and everything. GB should know this, and it has been posted in the possessions thread. KTHX.

GB: 2 e-mails, and 3 TG's. Let me know if you didn't get all the TG's and I'll resend them

GB: 2 e-mails, and 3 TG's. Let me know if you didn't get all the TG's and I'll resend them

got them all

sent replies

along with all of the other TGs and emails I got (which were a lot) ..lol

Lots of points and the fact that French Guyana had joined and that FNS had just bought Suriname from the Dutch.

Also, St Martinique and Guadeloupe are FNS territories. From waaaaay back. I have had troops stationed there and everything. GB should know this, and it has been posted in the possessions thread. KTHX.

I remember and it is posted

I couldn't remember about Suriname but do now

if I remember, I brokered the deal between the Dutch and FNS

I feel that I need to explain something.

-----------------------------

Gameplay / Events issues:

1. I was told that I don't have enough resources to launch a war aganist Kashgaria and Tibet, much less sustain my military. E20 players just told me I need like 10 - 15 extra resources, which would put me deep in the red.

2. Now my entire economic builds for 1965 - 1970 are screwed up, which means everything will have to be changed for 1970 events, especially the UIR-India conflict (funds, the breaking of UIR-Chinese relations, and all that stuff).

3. Owing to these, my support for India and the rebels in the UIR will probably have to be cut completely because I thought I had the resources and points to support such an effort, but apparently I don't.

4. With the EEC embargoing China, it means the Chinese economy will suffer because I thought I had enough resources to sustain China through any EEC or ToD embargo, but apparently I don't.

5. I already e-mailed GB with the invasion of Kashgaria and Tibet, but even that might have to be ret-conned because again, I don't have the resources to do so thanks to a screwed up build and not enough oil to support a military strike into Kashgaria and Tibet.

6. All these factors together would constitute a breakdown and "defeat" of China because I no longer have the resources to sustain China into 1971 and onwards. This is because of the "no ret-con" rule, so even if I redid my whole builds and everything because of screwed up resources, then GB would have to redo the Chinese part of the UIR-India conflict, and its too late for that.

------------------------------

Personal problems:

7. I totally suck at player VS player gaming, as obviously I have been outwitted, outmanuevered, and out-strategized in my 70 game years of playing China.

8. I do not have the ability and capacity to be as devious as most of the E20 players are (Amestria, Parth, GB, Artista, etc.). Consquently, should I get into a conflict with any of their IC nations, its a 99% chance I will be defeated regardless whether I have a good economy and military, or not.

9. I have been "defeated" 5 times so far in this roleplay with not one significant "win" aganist a player nation. The defeats are WW-2, the Sino-Jap war, WW-3 (Even though I technically won with the LTA, I lost 90% of my economy and infrastructure which is a "defeat" into itself), the Siberian Crisis (outwitted easily in diplomacy and politics), and 1964 Twilight War. Therefore if I go to war or engage in 1970's conflict, I'll be easily defeated by the UIR if I go aganist the UIR (which I already did, hence the "too late to fix it" comment) or if I went aganist India, the Indian player, Amestria, will easily destroy me in politics, strategy, diplomacy, and deviousness. The only victory I had was aganist a NPC- Tibet and Mongolia in the 1950's simply by throwing money at them to join China. Not hardly any victory Player VS Player.

10. I am at a severe disadvantage OOC'ly when it comes to playing aganist other players when it comes to plans and strategy. So the only hope for me to succeed in the 1970's onwards is if I had a player or someone behind me to help with any strategy and "deviousness" decision I do... but apparently even that is out of the question as the players who could help me the most in this regard are on the "enemy side" of my IC nation, which complicates things.

11. If I withdraw from playing China in E20, there are no other decent nations for me to play. If I choose to play Congo, then I will have to deal with the strategy, deviousness, and "breathing down my neck" by South Africa and Nigeria (Congo is sandwiched between both PC nations) meaning no fun or imperialism or "Empire Building" for me. TLS has stated he wants to play Ukraine, so that option is out of the window as well.

-------------------------------

China in E20 issues:

12. If I stay as China in 1970 onwards, it will be very boring for me for two reasons.

A. If I continue my peace route as I have been trying to do 1900 - 1970, then I will simply be invaded, nuked, or "beat down" repeatedly (see my "5 defeats" point above). Therefore the peaceful route apparently doesn't work for me.

B. If I go to war or expand which I believe would be fun and exciting, then the entire world will jump on me, meaning another "defeat" (mostly through my woefully underdeveloped Player VS Player gaming skills), then be forced to go the peace route again (BORING and not rewarding).

So I essentially feel boxed in, with no options for enjoyable or fun gameplay. I joined E20 to have fun playing and trying to mess around and everything, but I no longer have that option 1970 onwards.

13, I realize I chose the nation with the largest potential for economy and war, but that was not the reason why I chose China in the first place. I chose China to explore its culture, traditions, heritage, etc. and hopefully have a 6,000 year old civilization reach for the stars and colonize outer space. However, post-WW-3, China was reduced to "Economy Mode" or "Military Mode".

--------------------------------------

I felt that all these things needed to be said to express my frustration in playing China post-Twilight War. The magic of E20 for me is almost all gone, and the fun + excitement of it as well. Being constantly outwitted, outmanuevered, and defeated at every turn by other players doesn't exactly help my enthuaism and ambition. You could say I have an I.Q. of 10 when it comes to Player VS Player, while the other players have I.Q.'s of 50 or 100 compared to mine (This is not meant in any way to complain about the other players themselves, but rather my inability to compete with them).

I did have fun playing E20 prior to 1964, and chatting with the players on Chatzy. I enjoyed the E20 community OOC'ly, and I enjoyed watching the other players go to war with each other (I did have fun watching the LTA help China push back the USSR despite my 90% loss to economy). In short, I did have a good time in E20 1900 - 1964, but I believe I am not suited to playing a 1970 - 2000 era cold war as it requires skill and ability (politics and deviousness) in gaming that I simply don't have.

Therefore, I truly am having serious doubts whether I am able to continue playing China or not in E20 in this current timeline.

GB, check your e-mails please.

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I officially request that my nation be changed from Quebec to Dixie. This is due to many reasons, although the main one is that the Quebecois would rather sit in Quebec and be nice and peaceful than become evil war-mongering fascist bastards :)

After encouragement from Amestria and Kilani (thanks), I have decided to stay until 1971 at least. My ultimate decision will occur in 1971, whether I stay or go.

Well I'm glad they did. I'd miss you.

I shall be gone for the rest of today and tommorrow morning, please don't attack me until I get back. GB if something does happen, play may country as best you can. Abassasia (probably misspelled) you can handle any IC reactions the UIR might have toward events

Well good luck.

I might be able to get on tonight if nthe hotel has an available computer

OOC: Since I've been gone for around two weeks, can someone fill me in a bit? My big questions are:
1) What year is it?
2)What's going on in South Asia (skimmed the thread already, but a detailed explanation would be great)?
3) What is going on with the various global power blocs? Any new alliances, collapses of old ones, or new friendships/hatreds I should know about? Also, did Russia ever get into the EEC?
4) I know we need a Russia, but I'm going to be very busy during the school year, so would anyone mind me transferring to Greece? I'll try to get Russia all set up for a PC, if one can be found (by posting military, builds, etc)

OOC: Since I've been gone for around two weeks, can someone fill me in a bit? My big questions are:
1) What year is it?
2)What's going on in South Asia (skimmed the thread already, but a detailed explanation would be great)?
3) What is going on with the various global power blocs? Any new alliances, collapses of old ones, or new friendships/hatreds I should know about? Also, did Russia ever get into the EEC?
4) I know we need a Russia, but I'm going to be very busy during the school year, so would anyone mind me transferring to Greece? I'll try to get Russia all set up for a PC, if one can be found (by posting military, builds, etc)

its 1970, and I am nearly finished with Russian builds..

take Syria again instead of Greece if you need to change

Russia is in EEC, and Russia and Huron are allied (see North American thread)

OOC: Since I've been gone for around two weeks, can someone fill me in a bit? My big questions are:
1) What year is it?
2)What's going on in South Asia (skimmed the thread already, but a detailed explanation would be great)?
3) What is going on with the various global power blocs? Any new alliances, collapses of old ones, or new friendships/hatreds I should know about? Also, did Russia ever get into the EEC?
4) I know we need a Russia, but I'm going to be very busy during the school year, so would anyone mind me transferring to Greece? I'll try to get Russia all set up for a PC, if one can be found (by posting military, builds, etc)
I would like to be Russia, if Elephantum is ok with it. I rather be Russia then to Brazil.

I would like to be Russia, if Elephantum is ok with it. I rather be Russia then to Brazil.

ok, but make it in 1971 please

Incidently, Europeans get the pipeline connecting Siberia to Western Europe beginning in 1970

cost was 50 points and it took 5 years

its 1970, and I am nearly finished with Russian builds..

take Syria again instead of Greece if you need to change

Russia is in EEC, and Russia and Huron are allied (see North American thread)

Syria is kinda small... would Poland or the Ukraine be better, since they still have teeth, but aren't too big.

I'm fine with it.

I was actually thinking about going to Greece because Syria's pretty much in the state I left it (economically maxed all around, trying to lie low on the global scale). With Greece, or any other medium-small western nation I could try a new, fairly complex political system I've devised, sort of based on something Sharina posted ages ago, sort of based on my own beliefs, and sort of insane, that I'll go into later. Doing it in Russia or Syria would mess up regional affairs far too much.

EDIT: Poland is actually a pretty nice option. I think I'll go with that.

Major events in Russia

1968: The captial is returned to St. Petersburg, with much celebration and fanfare.
1970: Energy aid to China ends. Redistribution of troops means signifigant numbers of troops are in Asian Russia. While wary of growing Chinese power, no action has yet been taken. Constitutional convention reconvenes, proclaiming a constitution similar to that of the USA (and most successor states), with a President, Supreme Court, and two houses, one with equal distribution of seats by Oblast, one with proportional distribution by population. Regional councils, consisting of several Oblasts under central control, will follow a similar structure, with a governor, Regional court, and two houses.

Sharina: You could take up a North African country, or Switzerland, Hungary, or another neutral country. It's hard to have powerful friends to protect you as China, but you can do it better when you aren't so big.

I'm fine with it.

I was actually thinking about going to Greece because Syria's pretty much in the state I left it (economically maxed all around, trying to lie low on the global scale). With Greece, or any other medium-small western nation I could try a new, fairly complex political system I've devised, sort of based on something Sharina posted ages ago, sort of based on my own beliefs, and sort of insane, that I'll go into later. Doing it in Russia or Syria would mess up regional affairs far too much.

EDIT: Poland is actually a pretty nice option. I think I'll go with that.

Major events in Russia

1968: The captial is returned to St. Petersburg, with much celebration and fanfare.
1970: Energy aid to China ends. Redistribution of troops means signifigant numbers of troops are in Asian Russia. While wary of growing Chinese power, no action has yet been taken. Constitutional convention reconvenes, proclaiming a constitution similar to that of the USA (and most successor states), with a President, Supreme Court, and two houses, one with equal distribution of seats by Oblast, one with proportional distribution by population. Regional councils, consisting of several Oblasts under central control, will follow a similar structure, with a governor, Regional court, and two houses.


I am ok with Poland, although Ukraine is more open to political weirdness at the moment. The Poles are happy with their pipeline as they are assured of energy supplies and for once the Russian Bear and Germans are being polite neighbors in their view (as their history with both isn't so good)

Russia however still looks very scary to the Ukraine, and they got thoroughly occupied after a massive Western invasion (2nd time in 30 years no less)

please post the Russian stuff in the Russian thread

recommend that Moscow, the hero city after the vicious street by street defense during the Twilight War, be the executive and judicial capital, and Petrograd be the legislative capital

Ok, I guess I'm Brasil now.

This RP looks very interesting - is it still open?

If so, I'd like to RP a union between Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan - maybe Greece if it isn't taken... I'll be reading through the stats on this RP while I await a reply - I'm hoping it's still open.

Therefore, I truly am having serious doubts whether I am able to continue playing China or not in E20 in this current timeline.

I can help :p

This RP looks very interesting - is it still open?

If so, I'd like to RP a union between Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan - maybe Greece if it isn't taken... I'll be reading through the stats on this RP while I await a reply - I'm hoping it's still open.


Congo
Palestine
Saudi Arabia
Western Arabia
Kurdistan
Basra
Oman
Ethiopia
Paraguay
Costa Rica
Hondoras
Nicuruaga
El Salvador
Haiti
Dominican Republic
Cuba
Switzerland
Belgium
Netherlands
Burgundy
Andorra
San Marino
Liechtenstein
Hungary
Czechslovakia
Yugoslavia
Greece
Turkey
Armenia and Georgia
Azerbajan
Bhutan
Nepal
Togo
The Gambia
Ghana
Senegal

Plus, there are several Noth America nations now. The avaliable ones, I believe, are:


New England
Huron
Deseret (Utah)
Colorado Free State
Rocky Mountain Free State
Quebec

See this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=493633) for more information on that.

Alif Laam Miim, what's up! Nice to see someone else from E2 in this rp...anyways, I would say Congo is the best choice, it has to move to grow and could a regional power if played right.

Alif Laam Miim, I'm glad to see you're interested in E20. Just a couple of things:

1) If you haven't done so already, send a TG to Sharina with your request to join. This thread is kind of unwieldy, and he might miss your post.

2) I'm not absolutely sure, but I think the North American countries are intended to remain NPC, as we've got another player who is taking over North America in an EU-type role. Congo is a good choice, as OK suggested. Of course, Nigeria and South Africa will be breathing down your neck.

Alif Laam Miim, what's up! Nice to see someone else from E2 in this rp...anyways, I would say Congo is the best choice, it has to move to grow and could a regional power if played right.

I'm hoping to get that puppet started in EII, but it doesn't look nice at the moment. It's nice to see you as well.

Alif Laam Miim, I'm glad to see you're interested in E20. Just a couple of things:

1) If you haven't done so already, send a TG to Sharina with your request to join. This thread is kind of unwieldy, and he might miss your post.

2) I'm not absolutely sure, but I think the North American countries are intended to remain NPC, as we've got another player who is taking over North America in an EU-type role. Congo is a good choice, as OK suggested. Of course, Nigeria and South Africa will be breathing down your neck.

I'm personally more interested in a Trans-Caucasian union between Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. If I can't do that, I might go for Congo [although I haven't read much about it so far]

I'm personally more interested in a Trans-Caucasian union between Turkey, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. If I can't do that, I might go for Congo [although I haven't read much about it so far]

Okay, I just thought I'd mention it.

Wait? New England is free? I'd rather be New England than Poland, but I'll sort that out with the year change.

Just to tell you Netherlands has been taken.

I believe New England was already taken by someone else and I believe Dixie, Texas and Columbia were available as well, but they were intended to be NPC for the time being as well. Maybe I was misinformed...

I thought the Americans are reuniting under the control of safehaven2

Guys? I got back from Camp, so could any of you guys provide an update on what happened during my absence?

Guys? I got back from Camp, so could any of you guys provide an update on what happened during my absence?

Oh nothing, a quasi war between India and the UIR (with China helping India), a UN peacekeeping mission being planned, civil war in Burma, China wiping out two countries, the US moving back towards some form of federalism.

the US moving back towards some form of federalism.

To twist the words of the Blues Brothers, "they're getting the band back together!?" Sweet!

2 TG's for you GB

I am sorry about being out of it yesterday and I do regret being misunderstood and being misinformed about the conditions of anyone. It is true that things may have been strange due to the time "warp" and other things as well leading me to lose myself... I do fully intend to continue on this journey.

been busy today... will post and catch things up on Sunday

So is 71 going to be delayed by a day?

I have come to learn that my family has arranged a nice trip to the coast along with relatives of ours from out of town, although I am dissapointed that I won't be around to muck up in China and otherwise till Friday, I am expressing my good faith in the way the rest can handle this.

I am putting my nation under the control of ToD players (mainly Britain, Germany and Russia but the rest can help) and have informed them about my thoughts on the upcoming crisis.

Hope you enjoy yourselves while I am away. You lousy warmongers you.

Cheers.

Congo
Palestine
Saudi Arabia
Western Arabia
Kurdistan
Basra
Oman
Ethiopia
Paraguay
Costa Rica
Haiti
Dominican Republic
Cuba
Switzerland
Belgium
Netherlands
Burgundy
Andorra
San Marino
Liechtenstein
Hungary
Czechslovakia
Yugoslavia
Greece
Turkey
Armenia and Georgia
Azerbajan
Bhutan
Nepal
Togo
The Gambia
Ghana
Senegal

This is the revised list of nations available.

I have come to learn that my family has arranged a nice trip to the coast along with relatives of ours from out of town, although I am dissapointed that I won't be around to muck up in China and otherwise till Friday, I am expressing my good faith in the way the rest can handle this.

I am putting my nation under the control of ToD players (mainly Britain, Germany and Russia but the rest can help) and have informed them about my thoughts on the upcoming crisis.

Hope you enjoy yourselves while I am away. You lousy warmongers you.

Cheers.

Before you leave, there's an important development for France diplomatically.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11539414&postcount=71

Just to let you know.

Im going away to France for 11 days, stating tuesday.
Indochines builds will be posted upon my return, in the meantime GB will be left with somethings that Indochina will do.

North Federation established beginning 1971... Safehaven will play it, and John Tower of Texas is the first Chairman of the Grand Senate of the North American Federation

more to come over the course of the day... handling North America first, then South Asia, then Africa, and then anything else including resolving Space stuff that hasn't been resolved yet

1971 will not be delayed unless absolutely necessary

the various wars however are guerilla wars, and don't require a lot of interaction from players as they have all issued their orders and results are slow

Diplomatic efforts are moving slowly because of general uncertianty amongst the NPC nations, especially when it becomes clear the North America is reuniting (in a new guise)

IC
August 1970
The New York Times and London Times break stories concerning plans by the Chinese government to deport the entire population of Tibet and Kashgaria from their homelands and replace them with Chinese settlers. Sources are unnamed but the indication is that they are intentional leaks from NORAD and British intelligence as well as sources from Japan, Tibet, France, the UIR and from inside China itself.

Meanwhile, Time magazine breaks the story of plans by the Indian government to strip Eastern Bengal of its factories and other useful economic output in order to further repress rebels in that area.

Walter Cronkite of CBS News, the most respected newsman in North America, visits the UIR and confirms that the UIR government is indeed fighting under the rules of war for the most part and that the various rebel groups have no support outside of their homelands and limited support inside them.

That summer, students protest vigorously in France and Germany over EEU involvement in other peoples wars (specfically South Asia) and in Italy over the continue colonial rule over Libya (which isn't actually colonial, but quasi colonial)

Students in China also protest the invasion of Kashgaria and Tibet, demanding an end to Fascism, return to Democracy and reduction in military spending.

Meanwhile, Greenpeace is founded and campaigns forcefully to end whaling. New England and Iceland ban it, including ending it in their waters, as does Huron. Pressure is placed on the leading whaling nations or the nations nearest the major hunting grounds (Columbia, FNS, South Africa, Australasia, Scandic Union, Japan, and Britian) to end it or sharply limit it.

IC
August 1970

Meanwhile, Time magazine breaks the story of plans by the Indian government to strip Eastern Bengal of its factories and other useful economic output in order to further repress rebels in that area.

IC
August 1970

Meanwhile, Time magazine breaks the story of plans by the Indian government to strip Eastern Bengal of its factories and other useful economic output in order to further repress rebels in that area.

President/Prime Minister Gandhi publicly refutes Times magazine's article and in a public statement issued from her office declares that upon being granted independence East Bengal will be economically assisted by India. In a scathing public letter she attacks Times magazine for printing an unsubstantiated rumor that could inflame tensions and cost lives, demanding a retraction and apology.

The Federal troop’s deployments in East Bengal were to prevent terrorists from attacking East Bengals industrial sites and causing further mass losses of life in India, as well as to safeguard valuable facilities essential to East Bengal’s economy.

Meanwhile Indian troops withdraw from around the East Bengal Production Centers and take up positions just outside the State's borders instead. The Time magazine article is not allowed to be printed or reported on in Indian/Bengal Media.

Gandhi also (to everyone's surprise, even her own Government) announces that a referendum on the issue of East Bengal sovereignty will be held in November.

I guess it doesn't matter that I didn't deploy any troops...

Oh well, time to beat up some more students and blow up some more Kommies...

On a side note, after recieving a note from French about President Ming, the Kaiserin immediately evokes her "God-Given Powers" and against the protestations of nearly all of her staff, asks the Chinese President if he is willing to meet with her to discuss the situations, in Nepal.

GB: Emailed the details

The Organization of African States has been formed:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11543022#post11543022

Figure I'd let everyone know now; I'm leaving to go back to Texas (was in New Hampshire) Tuesday, and will be travelling all day. I go back to school on Thursday and School starts on next Monday so my time will be much more limited. I will get my '71 build up Monday and have my '72 build readyish, too.

Well hope to see you when you return, and have a safe trip.

As I'm taking over as Poland tommorow, does anyone (namely Safehaven/GB) have any info on Poland? Namely builds and military. Let me know if Twilight builds were not done (I skimmed the economic thread and didn't see any, but I might have missed something) so I can get to work on them.

Gb, Tg.

GB: e-mail

As I'm taking over as Poland tommorow, does anyone (namely Safehaven/GB) have any info on Poland? Namely builds and military. Let me know if Twilight builds were not done (I skimmed the economic thread and didn't see any, but I might have missed something) so I can get to work on them.

I'll tg you the 64 build tonight.

Am I the only one having problems with Chatzy? I hope not.

To those handling African NPC economies:

As a condition for membership in the OAS, African countries agree to put some funds every year into an OAS "bank" for use in various OAS projects (such as maintaining the African Defense Force). Therefore, can you make sure that African NPCs contribute to the general fund. It doesn't have to be much, just two or three points should be fine.

Am I the only one having problems with Chatzy? I hope not.

I am having the problems as well.

Hey, everyone who's participating in embargoes want to post it and what all is being embargoed here so it's easier for GB and China?

UIR: all products, border closed, embassy withdrawn and Chinese embassy expelled, same with India
Korea: Shipping to China ceased. Threat of border closing and diplomatic revocation imminent.
Russia: all trade to China ceased.
Rumania: All trade to China ceased, Chinese embassy staff expelled.
The Netherlands:All trade to China ceased
India: Border with the UIR closed.
Ireland: embargo on trade
NPC African and Carribean nations as well
France and Germany: Trade Embargo, Oil embargo (German Companies in the AF), and withdrawl of most Embassy staff.
EEC may follow suit
UK: Full trade embargo, British and Commonwealth citizens who wish to be are evacuated from India and UIR. An evacuation of China will begin shortly.
NPC Commonwealth nations will follow this.

Korea: Shipping to China ceased. Threat of border closing and diplomatic revocation imminent.

The Netherlands is currently not doing any embargos of this time.

Russia: all trade to China ceased.

Rumania: All trade to China ceased, Chinese embassy staff expelled.

The Netherlands:All trade to China ceased

everything edited. Hope this is helpful, GB

India: Border with the UIR closed.

Hey, everyone who's participating in embargoes want to post it and what all is being embargoed here so it's easier for GB and China?

UIR: all products, border closed, embassy withdrawn and Chinese embassy expelled, same with India
Korea: Shipping to China ceased. Threat of border closing and diplomatic revocation imminent.
Russia: all trade to China ceased.
Rumania: All trade to China ceased, Chinese embassy staff expelled.
The Netherlands:All trade to China ceased
India: Border with the UIR closed.

Ireland places an embargo on trade, serious pressure is emerging in North America on this, and the NPC nations in Africa and the Caribbean join in (ooc not that it will make a difference)

Germany: Trade Embargo, Oil embargo (German Companies in the AF), and withdrawl of most Embassy staff.

Figure, French do the same thing.

I would also assume that the EEC follows suit with a Trade Embargo?

Im leaving today and wont be back for 11-12 days. I would ask you to try not to blow up the world while i'm gone, but I know thats wishful thinking. :p

UK: Full trade embargo, British and Commonwealth citizens who wish to be are evacuated from India and UIR. An evacuation of China will begin shortly.

I figure the NPC Commonwealth nations will follow this.

Central American citizens are advised to leave India and China. Citizens in India are directed towards Ceylon, where they can obtain safe transport home. Citizens in China are told to make their way to Japan.
USCA asks the Ceylon and Japanese Gov'ts for the right to land military transports on their bases to take the civilians home. Similar requests are sent to the Indian and Chinese Gov'ts, however a positive response is not expected. Civilians from the North American Federation, FNS, and other civilians from the Americas will also be taken, but not at the expense of Central American citizens.

The USCA Government withholds from an embargo for the time being, fearing that it could jeopardise the safety of its citizens in the region. However, USCA has little trade with China anyway.

everything updated

Australasia: No trade with China and consulates closed. Embassies remain open with limited staff and citizens are advised to return home.

Poland, trying to establish a state of relative neutrality, will participate in an EEC embargo, but will not initiate one herself.

I can't access the Twilight War thread to see war damage, but here was the 1964 Polish build. I figured maybe 1/3 factories damaged, but if a mod would rule on military as of 1965, that would be great so I can do 1965-71 builds.


Polish Budget 1964
Population: 46 million
Tech Level 7.5
9 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)
Production centers: (National Effort)(92 prod centers)Warsaw 7, Lodz 7, Krakow 7, Katowice 7, Brest-Litovsk 7, Lvov 7, Riga 7, Lublin 7, Vilnius 4, Kaunas 4, Memel 4, Kaliningrad 4, 30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz), 9 nuclear, 1 ethanol, 5.5 comm net=217.75
Level III social services: 13.8 points.
Intel Agency: 5 points
Military Maintenance: 65.5 points (2 HQ, 9 highly trained armored divisions, 5 HT infantry corps, 6 HT mech divisions, 2 mech arty(Highly Trained) 4 SF airborne Brigade, 8 flak units, 15 MIG 25, 6 Tu22, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 1 Tu 107, 1 ETU95, 6 gunship, 4 transport helo, 1 asw helo 23 expert pilots, 14 regular pilots, 3 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear heavy missile cruiser, 1 nuclear AA cruiser, 4 lv 7.5 nuclear attack sub, 1 CVAN, 1 Heavy air wing).

Spending:132.5+17.5 last year=150
4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-microelectronics(3/10)
3 points-improved comm sat net
12 points-space program
20 points-China
12.5 points-5 Kfir fighters
10 points-5 pilots
6 points-2 garrison units
24 points-calling up various CSPS mothballed ships
53 left

Link to nations list:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11554151#post11554151

I seperated it from the UN thread to avoid clogging it up and it makes a useful reference to have anyway. I'll try to keep this as up to date and accurate as possible.

There is a temporary time freeze in place as many people are having difficulty logging onto the forums to post or even read topics. This will continue until people (Sharina and GB included) are able to log on an post and we'll pick up where we left off. Until then could people please hold off posting any major events which will require PC responses, posting builds or minor events which only effect your own country will still be permitted, just nothing which will need other peoples involvement.

Cheers.

There is a temporary time freeze in place as many people are having difficulty logging onto the forums to post or even read topics. This will continue until people (Sharina and GB included) are able to log on an post and we'll pick up where we left off. Until then could people please hold off posting any major events which will require PC responses, posting builds or minor events which only effect your own country will still be permitted, just nothing which will need other peoples involvement.

Cheers.

I thought I was the only one

I have sporadic access... I will do what I can as I can

I haven't had any problems. Oh well. The UIP wouldn't embargo anyways.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=496459

Polish N/D thread

South Africa: full trade embargo on China (I'll post either in my thread or the South Asian Wars thread in a moment to make it official).

just to see if I can post

Hmm, this is getting to be a serious problem. I can't seem to post often, and can't rely on when I can

Hopefully this will all clear up soon. Its happened before, right in the middle of the 2nd Great War was one such instance.

China is being ostracized by the world community both economically and diplomatically. However as the player is unable to respond at the moment, for fairness sake, we will assume a lot of debate is going on.

Some discussion concerning a restart has occured. Should one occur, I will take nominations for player countries. I am thinking actually that 1906 has a certain symmetry to it (100 years exactly back), plus some major events would have happened and ended (Boer War, Philippine Insurrection, Boxer Rebellion, 1905 Revolt in Russia) which will mean a completely different starting place in many ways then the RP we are in now.

Also considered 1869 (pre Franco-Prussian War)

How about 1816? Right after the Napoleonic Wars? It would take us alot further and get rid of the threat of such technologies that make diplomacy ummm way way too weird.

How about 1816? Right after the Napoleonic Wars? It would take us alot further and get rid of the threat of such technologies that make diplomacy ummm way way too weird.

The problem when going back so far is that there is less historical information and statistics one can put to use in a game setting, plus the fact that the world was far more fragmented during the 19th century...and more peaceful, makes it less appealing. I say 1900 or 1906, and that any RP starting before the 20th century is a bad idea.

The problem when going back so far is that there is less historical information and statistics one can put to use in a game setting, plus the fact that the world was far more fragmented during the 19th century...and more peaceful, makes it less appealing. I say 1900 or 1906, and that any RP starting before the 20th century is a bad idea.

which is why I ultimately decided on 1906

If a restart is on the cards then make my vote one for 1906, so the Boer wars are wrapped up and the recent Boxer rebellion is over. I'd also like to keep the UK if at all possible, trying to stick to a more historical progression of events and avoid some of the strange choices I made early on.

Honestly, I think that play is much more interesting in the pre-nuclear era, and I'd be very interested in playing Japan.

Just arrived home and read a few of the last posts, it seems not much has happened on the count of Technical difficulties, anyways I have returned and will start reviewing the situation. Hopefully my allies already ansewred the few thoughts I had before I left.

A few random musings of mine:

As a restart is the most probable outcome now, I think several changes should be made to the way nuclear weapons can be made. Specifically the nations that can research them and their proliferation. The nations should only be the ones at the cutting edge of technological research for the time and having a massive research and resource base.

In RL the USA and UK working together in the 40's, with the USSR not far behind. There should be very strict restrictions on proliferation, in RL 2006 only around 10 have the immediate capability (UK, USA, Russia, France, China, India, Pakistan, probably Iran, North Korea and Isael) with several other nations having medium term capability (ie capable of building them in the near future, having restarted nuclear programs), these including Canada, Germany, Italy, Saudi Arabia, Lituania. Around a dozen other nations have had nuclear programs but cancelled them through lack of funding, resources or political will.

In the restart there should be no nukes until the 40's with only 2 or 3 of the most technologically advanced nations being able to start work on them then. Progression should be very expensive and difficult, and prone to severe political recriminations if your population doesn't agree with it, the NPC mod having the right to cancel your program if he determines the population as a whole disagree with it enough to force your administration to cancel the program or lose office. Later on other nations can begin development but the decision being the war mod's as to who can start, there should be limitations on proliferation and trading of knowledge as well. Perhaps even appointing a nuclear weapons mod to oversee things.

Similar restrictions should be palced on chemical weapons, with the UK and USA being traditional leaders in this field, though France, Germany and Russia would also be fairly advanced. The current system would have to be rewritten so that all of the traditional nations have the lead in development and restricting other nations to later development. The UK alone developed the deadliest nerve agent ever created, VX gas, trading it with the US. Russia later synthesised it's own varient, Iraq and Syria were also rumoured to have some, perhaps stolen or purchased from Russian depots, unlikely to have synthesised it themselves. This would have to be placed in the hands of a mod, expanding the above mentioned nuclear mods role to chemical and biological weapons and creating an ABC/NBC/WMD mod to oversee the development.

This should ensure less proliferation of NBC weapons and solve the problems created by their extensive use and proliferation that caused the downfall of this last RP.

--------

EDIT: Further Thoughts

I can see how some people will be angry at the fact that their nation can't have nukes or chemical weapons, but i'm trying to keep it limited so that we can have more of a cold war situation. A stand off between major powers as both have nukes and such, but extensive smaller insurrections and guerrilla warfare situations with many nations funding either side.

Much better than a situation where everyone has nukes and they start flying everywhere.

We saw last time how mutually assured destruction fails to work with so many players eager to expand and better their nations. there was such widespread ownership of ICBMs that they are seen as an acceptable form of warfare.

In the new restart I would much rather see more diplomatic talks and potentially "hot" situations (such as the Cuban missile crisis) than actual warfare with tactical nukes and chemical weapons being used all over.

A few random musings of mine:

As a restart is the most probable outcome now...

Why?

I mean, I have yelled against this for sometime now, and have gotten to the point where I am just tired of it. If everybody wants a restart for some reason, fine--I'll go along with it. I didnt get to see the beginning of this game, and it would be interesting to participate this time around.

HOWEVER:

I want to know the reason. Whats the point in saying you are going to play out the 20th century if you dont do it? You put in over a year of work and time and then say "oh, nevermind"? What makes everybody think that a restart will solve all the problems? Odds are you will get halfway through the century and want to go back to the beginning again in some futile infinity loop.

Stick to your guns guys, seriously. We are nearly three-fourths of the way through one of the most successful RPs that I have ever seen in these forums. Why go and tear it all down to the foundations on a whim?

Thats really all I have to say on it. I guess I wish everybody cared more about all the great things that have been accomplished as opposed to obsessing about all the little things that mightbe fixed the next time. Or the time after that or the time after that or...

But really, your will be done.

I was just going by the general feeling of the people on Chatzy over the past few days. The consensus was that a restart would be the most likely thing once everyone got access to the forums. I'm not really bothered what happens either way (though i'd prefer a restart) and am more than willing to go with the majority of people. It's just that from what I gather the majority support a restart.

Speaking as one of the nations that is the center of such excitement, I would personally like to keep going for a while longer, and end if something should occur (another nukes war, etc.)

However, the current situation with jolt means things have to slow down, making things frustrating, meaning the longer jolt is down or partially down, the more people will want a restart, and I completely understand the sentiment.

Therefore, I propose the following:

1. We begin taking nominations for nations and voting for what year the game will restart in.

2. We try to continue playing this as much as possible, taking into account the fact that China and others can't get on.

3. In a week we vote as to whether we restart or not.

Hopefully, this compromise should allow people who want a restart a chance to fully plan one out so that we don't have to wait another few weeks before gaming, and it allows the people against a restart a chance to prepare themselves and hope that jolt starts working again.

Therefore, I put forth myself to play as Japan

I for one am utterly against a restart. I've invested wayy too much into this to see it all go to waste.

I for one am utterly against a restart. I've invested wayy too much into this to see it all go to waste.

I understand the sentiment of both sides, however, things are paused at the moment because of Jolt problems

Although I can get in again thankfully

either way, I plan in the near future to put together a web page with the rules so that instead of having everything in Jolt, we have a secure site for that.

Also, in either situation, I want people to post their builds in the first page of their national threads, and simply post a link in the economic thread each year so that they can be more easily examined or post them in their national thread somewhere and post the link in their first page. At least so I can easily examine them..lol.


I will over the course of this week put together nations and their military and economic power as of 1900 and post it most likely somewhere other then Jolt so everyone can look at them. That way an informed decision can be made IF we go with restart. However, it does look like a majority is going that way.

1900 or 1906?

1900 or 1906?

1906 yes... although a lot of the stats will be tweaked slightly from 1900

and some militaries of course will be different then in 1900, for example, the entire Russian Navy has been wrecked

This thing with Jolt not working correctly is driving me crazy as well. I believe that throwing away about 6 decades of E20 History would give a chance for everyone to learn from their mistakes and experiment with making sure that everything develops overtime. It is given that the New E20 must have a new forum and a new place...
Personally, if we want to restart I would prefer 1910, but 1906 would be perfect to start the new E20.

Since we're going to frickin' restart...fine. This time, I'm taking the USA.

Since we're going to frickin' restart...fine. This time, I'm taking the USA.

That will be voted upon, Safehaven has my vote for the US.

It is given that the New E20 must have a new forum and a new place...

Agreed, Jolt is unreliable at best and the high volume activity of the boards makes it difficult to notice and find stuff related to the RP (as well as the fact vital threads, if not kept track of, could be lost forever). However, there is the question of how new players are to be attracted to the RP...a new forum and a new place would mean fewer notice (something that should be considered, though I believe there are solutions).

That will be voted upon, Safehaven has my vote for the US.

Now you tell me. As it is, this whole issue is putting me in a bad mood...don't push it.

And just why wouldn't I be qualified?

Now you tell me. As it is, this whole issue is putting me in a bad mood...don't push it.

And just why wouldn't I be qualified?

You aren't unqualified, its just that we may have more players then major powers to start with, and some nations are more popular then others.

Several people want to be Russia already, and a couple want to be France

So the fairest way I can think of is to take nominations and then have a vote.

I was also thinking to make things a little higher stakes, if you lose a major war, and your country is occupied, you lose your seat as that country's player, and someone who is playing one of the middling countries gets it.

So for example, if Germany is defeated and occupied by the Allies (using RL example), then for example player 1 who had it loses his place as Germany, and player 2, who has been struggling all game with the Netherlands gets a promotion to Germany. Player 1 would then get the Netherlands.

Using examples, but you get the idea.

This might have the effect of forcing people to be careful strategically and make war high stakes like it is in real life.

Has anybody asked for China yet?

I was also thinking to make things a little higher stakes, if you lose a major war, and your country is occupied, you lose your seat as that country's player, and someone who is playing one of the middling countries gets it.

So for example, if Germany is defeated and occupied by the Allies (using RL example), then for example player 1 who had it loses his place as Germany, and player 2, who has been struggling all game with the Netherlands gets a promotion to Germany. Player 1 would then get the Netherlands.

How would that work in the event of something that is not a total defeat? Say you have a war that ends in a bloody draw, what happens then (has history has shown draws and less then satisfying victories can lead to big problems down the road)? Also, what happens if you lose a minor rather then a major war (or say an armed conflict?), and what defines loss? Also, does the change happen immediately or in the preceding post war period (I assume the change in players would be RPed as a change in Government)?

Has anybody asked for China yet?

No China until 1911 and that player then gets to be the Nationalists or Communists, and another player can be the Communists or Nationalists

The Nationalists start by owning the country though

By 1906, the Manchus were doomed, and only a prod was needed to bring the whole thing down.

There will also be a bunch of NPC warlords to deal with as well

No China until 1911 and that player then gets to be the Nationalists or Communists, and another player can be the Communists or Nationalists

The Nationalists start by owning the country though

By 1906, the Manchus were doomed, and only a prod was needed to bring the whole thing down.

Don't forget the remaining Qing Dynasty...they are kind of doomed, but they should be taken into account as a competing faction.

So I'm guessing I will still have to play a relative small country until I prove myself right?

Don't forget the remaining Qing Dynasty...they are kind of doomed, but they should be taken into account as a competing faction.

Somehow, I find my options limited at the moment.

The Qing would still matter, as RL history proves (after all the Forbidden remained Qing until 1924 and Puyi was briefly restored Emperor in 1917, albeit only for 11 days).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyi

It appears that we most likely be restarting, but I think GB's idea is very good about losing your country, but with a few exceptions. For example, if you get attacked and lose, you shouldn't be punished by losing your country. I would like to see these new stats for nations.

I avail myself GB to yuo to help lighten your load in any way possible.

In other news, my computer access will be limited for the next 2 weeks (figure 3 times a week), but I will be on regularly, at least once a day, from then on, and I should be able to get a economy for my nation (hopefully Japan, but if not then Persia) up with the time I have.

EDIT- Should we get a list of people and what nation they'd like up?

The nation I would like to play the most would the Ottoman Empire, my second choice would be Russia and my wild card choice would be rping a Indian Congress movement ;)

I'd like to stick with Rumania or take over Italy, if possible.

trying to be helpful, and wanting to show my worth to be Japan:

a little info on Japan's economy from Wiki:

"Rapid growth and structural change characterized Japan's two periods of economic development since 1868. In the first period, the economy grew only moderately at first and relied heavily on traditional agriculture to finance modern industrial infrastructure. By the time the Russo-Japanese War began in 1904, 65 % of employment and 38 % of the gross domestic product (GDP) was still based on agriculture, but modern industry had begun to expand substantially. By the late 1920s, manufacturing and mining contributed 23 % of GDP, compared with 21 % for all of agriculture. Transportation and communications had developed to sustain heavy industrial development."

Final Choices:

Nationalist Chinese

USA

Or the Koreans again.

Final Choices:

Nationalist Chinese

USA

Or the Koreans again.

USA- you'd probably lose in a vote

Korea- annexed soon after the start

Nationalist- promising, but you'd have to wait a few years

I would probably want either Italy or Canada or I have no clue. I'd rather not restart at all.

I think Italy would be a better choice. Canada is still a pawn of Great Britain.

France for me ;)

USA- you'd probably lose in a vote

Korea- annexed soon after the start

Nationalist- promising, but you'd have to wait a few years

revised Choices-

Nationalist China

Germany

Brazil

No China until 1911 and that player then gets to be the Nationalists or Communists, and another player can be the Communists or Nationalists

The Nationalists start by owning the country though

By 1906, the Manchus were doomed, and only a prod was needed to bring the whole thing down.

There will also be a bunch of NPC warlords to deal with as well

upon further thought, willing to consider a Nationalist Chinese Player (essentially Sun Yetsen and his followers) at the start of the game, but they wont actually control anything until the revolution in 1911

you guys might want to see what you are getting in 1906 first before chosing lol

apparently the response is overwhelmingly to restart... sorry those who want to continue, I really can't run both. One takes up an enormous amount of time as it is.

upon further thought, willing to consider a Nationalist Chinese Player (essentially Sun Yetsen and his followers) at the start of the game, but they wont actually control anything until the revolution in 1911

I favor a more chaotic China, where you have the Nationalists, the Communists, the warlords, and the Qing all fighting it out and what-ever foreign powers want a piece (like Japan) scheming to take it, directly or indirectly.

I would like to point out that China did not immediately progress from Imperial System to total anarchy, there was the brief Presidency/dictatorship of Beiyang commander Yuan Shikai, which fell apart owing to his miscalculation in attempting to restore the Imperial System (with himself as Emperor, taking the name Hongxian) which cost him significant support and caused a backlash against his government that "fractured" China (although it was Yuan's system of military govenors that led to such a severe fragmentation, which led to his post-humanious title, Father of the Warlords).

Also, the Qing did not just fade away, they only lost power in 1911 because General Yuan switched sides (deciding to seize power for himself under the guise of Republicanism). In 1917 the warlord general Zhang Xun restored the Qing to power for 11/12 days, and Puyi remained in the Forbidden City until he was expelled in 1924 by the warlord general Duàn Qíruì (who himself was a former lieutenant of Yuan known for frequent collaboration with the Japanese in return for military and financial aid). The Japanese then later used Puyi as a puppet for their imperial ambitions upon China.

Further (easy) reading...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era

In fact, given how large, complex, and important China is we should probably have a China thread, even when its an NPC (for all China related events), and a full time China mod, rather then have the NPC mod handle it (given, as previously stated, how large and complex China is, and how important it becomes later on).

Vas, although there is some (a lot of) bad blood (putting it lightly), was the most knowledgable when it came to Chinese History... Perhaps we should ask him if he would like to be the China NPC mod (just throwing that out there, his knowledge of China was unsuppassed).

If Vas is unavailable/unacceptable, then who shall be that mod?

upon further thought, willing to consider a Nationalist Chinese Player (essentially Sun Yetsen and his followers) at the start of the game, but they wont actually control anything until the revolution in 1911

Cool. In that case, I am so taking them, even if they do start out as a mere interest group, kinda like the player who eventually makes Israel or another type of Jewish homeland will be.

And Amestria, I am not stupid, I am fully aware of all that stuff. So no.

If Vas is unavailable/unacceptable, then who shall be that mod?

Vas stated he is never coming back, so I doubt we'll get him to join again...so yeah..

Wow. I never thought I'd see the day E20 restarted (or at least in the process of considering the option of restarting). Quite a pity, but nonetheless, I think it has been a very good run (nearly 70 years; longer than any other historical RP ever created).

For those of you who have wondered where I have been for the past 2 or 3 months, I have been on vacation, unable (and rather unwilling at times) to gain access to the internet.

However, now that I've returned, I plan on continuing from where I left off. In the event of no restart, I will be perfectly content continuing my efforts with Canada (or what remains of it, I guess). However, if there is indeed a restart, consider my interests placed in one of the Scandinavian nations (most likely either Sweden or Norway).

After much thought here is my revised Choices

Ottoman Empire

Persia

Germany

Well, it's quite funny. I was about to begin a new Alt. His. RP, which would start in 1906...

Since E20 is restarting, and I'm sure all the good RPers will be involved in this RP I've decided to join this one instead of starting one of my own. I'm intesrted in a not so important nation, for two reasons:
1. They are fun to RP.
2. I don't have loads of time, I'll have to go to school from 9 till 6 every Monday to Saturday... :eek:

I would like to play as either:
-Holland
-Argentina
-South Africa

Maybe Russia, if no one wants to take them. They were in a shitty position in 1906...

The Netherlands is mine.

The Netherlands is mine.

Well, I still have Argentina and South Africa;)

In an attempt to lighten GB's load I will compile a list of the world's navies in 1906 and post it on the net for him and the players. I have already done the Royal Navy (Britain), Deutsche Marine (Germany) and Marine Nationale (France). I can easily get stats for the Japanese, Russian, Spanish, American, Italian, Austrian, Swedish and Chinese navies, these will all be posted online by tomorrow. I can also get various others, but some further research and hence time may be required for them.

And Amestria, I am not stupid, I am fully aware of all that stuff. So no.

No what?

Have we determined the new venue/forum that will be used for the RP?

I am reluctant to restart as well, but if it happens, my choices would be (just preliminary, no particular order):
-Ottoman Empire (there's gonna be some heavy competition here)
-Zionist Movement (if acceptable)
-Portugal/Belgium/Netherlands (minor colonial powers)

EDIT: Invisionfree is free, and you can divide it up into different forums (one for N/D threads, one for events (wars and other RPs), and one for the major threads (NPC, economy, etc.), or something.

you guys might want to see what you are getting in 1906 first before chosing lol

apparently the response is overwhelmingly to restart... sorry those who want to continue, I really can't run both. One takes up an enormous amount of time as it is.

ok, so I said I was going to let this go. But I lied. My bad.

This restart thing has a lot more momentum than it should because too many people are saying "well, what if."

Once and for all, for my peace of mind please:

Ignore any "i want this" debate for a second please. A simple answer to a simple question. Everybody please.

Do you want a restart? If so why. Are you against a restart? Why.

Just for a minute please consider. We are throwing away more than a year of gaming, and 70 plus years of history on practically a whim. For all the discussion of "i want this and i want that" i have yet to hear a legitimate reason for a restart. Maybe I wasnt listening clearly. Let me know.

heres my response.

I am fervently against a restart. I am aware of no good reasons to stop so close to the finish line and backtrack all the way to the beginning. This was an RP of the entire 20th century, something never successfully done before (to my knowledge). If you guys want to play again, then stick to your guns and finish this out, then go at it again. We are too close to stop now.

So many things have been done that give this RP flavor that couldnt be replicated without seeming stale. The FNS in South America or South Africa's domination of that continent come immediately to mind. Please lets not jump the gun in killing this thing...

You have a point, though I was involved only during a small part of the game I followed it from the very beginning. On the other hand, how many years have you guys RPed since the Twilight years? One year?

The Guys who want to restart can join my RP if E20 continues :D

It may take a while because I want to organize my RP in a almost E20iesh way (very organized with builds and stuff) and I'm brainstorming about a revolutionairy Conscript/Volunteer Army Rule :)

Do you want a restart? If so why. Are you against a restart? Why.


Once again, I am personally against a restart in any way shape or form, mainly because I am in agreement with Cylea. Yeah, we've had IC lumps, and OOC ones, but I am still reluctant to flush all that down the toilet.

Still, if we do restart, I will go with the majority, seeing as by then the point would be moot.

that the twilight years hurt our momentum is fairly universally accepted I think. I started following E20 from right before the 2nd World War and joined right after it was finished. But reminiscing aside.

Before we go off down memory lane again, all players vote please. I really want to see how everybody stands on this, desire to switch nations put aside. Thanks.

Once again, I am personally against a restart in any way shape or form, mainly because I am in agreement with Cylea. Yeah, we've had IC lumps, and OOC ones, but I am still reluctant to flush all that down the toilet.

Still, if we do restart, I will go with the majority, seeing as by then the point would be moot.

luckily this vote doesnt consider going along with the majority. Pure feeling only, no niceties involved. Restart or no, and its nice to see somebody agrees.

for me I could less if we restart, but personal I like how this rp has turn out so far. So for me, my vote will be against a restart.

I'll abstain for the time being.

Vote Status as of 6:00 US Central Time:

For Restart: 0 Against Restart: 3 Abstain: 1

I know it is early, but what was that about momentum?

Do you want a restart?

Yes.

If so why.

The present pace just seems to lack a sense of momentum, less so because of the twilight years and more the result of Jolt problems, also I feel the first half of the 20th century is more interesting to RP then the latter half.

In addition, its not like things would be flushed down the toilet, there would be a new start anyway when the century changes again, so making a new start 29 years early is not that big a deal. A good deal of the bumps have also been ironed out of the existing game systems and I think some would like to attempt further improvements, such as my idea for a China Mod (which would make sure the Chinese warlord era is as complex as it was historically).

I appreciate that. I disagree of course, but it was well thought out, so thanks.

Revised vote standing:

For Restart: 1
Against Restart: 3
Abstain: 1

Chatzy to debate it if you arent there already.

I would obviously agree with everyone about the momentum and about the obvious problems with the way things turned out... There are going to be a lot of improvements guaranteed with E20 either with or without a restart.
It does matter to remember where we stand as well as what led us to this point. I honestly believe that I will vote for a restart to make sure that we can apply what we learned, but I would also accept continuing from where we currently stand.

Same comment as last time.

Revised vote standing:

For Restart: 2
Against Restart: 3
Abstain: 1

Chatzy to debate it if you arent there already.

For the restart. I have my reasons, but some of them need to be kept secert.

<snip>

Thank, Cylea, for putting it so simply. Once again, for the record, I am against a restart.

Either way, I have fun. Abstain.

As recent activity proves the response has not been "overwhelmingly to restart," its more divided and good points have been made regarding the fact that a lot is currently happening. I propose we hold off on any talk of a new start at least until 1980, by which time everyone will have a much fuller picture...

Also, we might as well use the next ten years to test out some new game mechanics and see if we can't restore momentum (thinking about it, although the first half of the century is more fun, the present lack of momentum may be the result of underdeveloped mechanics and an overwelmed NPC moderator, GB's doing the best he can but the system was never designed for one person to handle...Jolts problems just letting everything stew).

1. My proposed system regarding two players competing over a country after a traumatic war expierence or during a civil war.

2. Another full time NPC mod (I nominate OK, who everyone has agreed is a good choice and who personally has accepted)

3. A full time student movement mod, as the student movements of the 70s were very complex and "protests break out" does not really cut it or do those movements historical justice, and leaving it solely to the players the past has shown is not a good idea (I nominate myself and everyone seems happy with my idea/self nomination).

4. A system of drug trade and drug consumption, social costs/penalties, conflicts, organized crime, and profits.

I would like to make one comment in opposition to a new start, if we start again it will take 70 weeks at the least to get back to the 1970s...we might as well RP them out fully as they can be very interesting if done properly, and we really should take the time to go over the 1970s mechanics so when there is a new start we have a streamlined system we can easily put into play at the correct moment. Also, instead simply going for a new start we might as well constructively add to the games deminsions.

In an attempt to lighten GB's load I will compile a list of the world's navies in 1906 and post it on the net for him and the players. I have already done the Royal Navy (Britain), Deutsche Marine (Germany) and Marine Nationale (France). I can easily get stats for the Japanese, Russian, Spanish, American, Italian, Austrian, Swedish and Chinese navies, these will all be posted online by tomorrow. I can also get various others, but some further research and hence time may be required for them.

probably would be easier to email it to me

anthryax@yahoo.com

If we're going to restart (which I support), I really want to be the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

If I can't get that, I'd like to play Chile or Peru.

3. A full time student movement mod, as the student movements of the 70s were very complex and "protests break out" does not really cut it or do those movements historical justice, and leaving it solely to the players the past has shown is not a good idea (I nominate myself and everyone seems happy with my idea/self nomination).

That idea is a litttle vague. Instead of a student movement mod, what you need is a social unrest mod. Because let's face it, students are lazy, and you can't rely on them to cause problems all the time. :p

I'm against a restart.

I'm against one right now, although that could change.

The state of most people's navies in 1906 will be updated here:

http://ajdumelow.tripod.com/navy.htm

Currently listed: British, German. French, Chinese, Japanese, Austro-Hungarian, Swedish

Still to come: Spanish, Russian, Italian, American, Portuguese, Ottoman, Norwegian, Uruguayan, Argentine, Brazilian, Chilean, Dutch, Danish,

Hope to have all of them up by Tuesday.

Still to list several nations's smaller vessels and everyone's submarines.

By the way I am in favour of a restart, largely due to the lack of momentum post-twilight which we have experienced and the fact that we can put into place several measures to ensure a great playing atmosphere and realism from day one, which didn't happen originally in this RP. The builds system will make the early years much better than we have had before and pre-nuclear warfare is so much better than anything else. Finally it will allow us to remove several of the more dubious E20 moments from the timeline and concentrate on getting a more convincing "what if" history of the 20th century than such widespread communism, nuclear warfare, massive social reforms, mega nations and other such instances.

Thanks everybody for chiming in so far.

Revised vote standing:

For Restart: 4 (5 if you count Canadstein)
Against Restart: 6
Abstain: 2

Chatzy to debate it if you arent there already.

And Amestria makes a good point. The 70's are pretty damn tough to RP. It sounds like a good idea to get through those before seriously talking about a restart to at least get some practice down.

Lesser Ribena has the most convincing argument for restart (to me) but getting through at least one more decade to prepare seems like sound judgement.

It should be clear I have no issue with playing E20 through again--I just want to finish the current project first. E20 mark 2 can be great, but finishing mark 1 first to make sure we catch all the possible tough points is really important.

And remember, one of the reasons for the loss of momentum is all this restart talk in the first place. It has become both a means and an end. If we decide to keep going (as the vote narrowly shows so far) I would bet some of the momentum issues would vanish too.

Why wouldn't you count me?

Why wouldn't you count me?

you'll notice I did count you

I was just wondering because it said 5 if you count Canadstein.

I assume then you would not have preferred if I ignored you completely and just said 4...

Well I just wanted to know we you didn't include me in the total count for a restart. Sorry being such a annoyance.

Not a problem. Thanks for caring--seriously.

I don't know if I can vote because I'm not active in E20 now, but I'm against a restart.

Rather than holding a vote on who can vote, I'll just put...

Revised vote standing:

For Restart: 4 (5 if you count Canadstein)
Against Restart: 6 (7 if you count Warta Endor)
Abstain: 2

Chatzy to debate it if you arent there already.

I am for a restart because I like the first half of the twentieth century a bit more than the next half.

Although I am not fervently aligned with the idea and would agree either way.

I am for a restart because I think that this roleplay has always been about war and war is less interesting with nuclear weapons.

I am for a resart for several reasons:

1. Too many nations have nukes, and profliferation is crazy here
2. Nations involved in things they realistically would not be. I'm in favor of at least a little more realism for a restart, and tougher rules on nukes.

I also notice many nations mentioning they are agaibst a restart, but that they would continue on RP'ing.

I also find jolt to be screwy (for the last month it logs me out when I get to the forum), and people may or may not have trouble getting on still.

If we don't resart we should at least keep a pile of information and rules handy for when we do. I'm glad to see people like Lachenburg and Warta coming back for this.

I'm still on vacation for a while by the way

A thought: One of the reasons I'm for the restart is that we can set new ground rules for some things that are easily abused even now. One example: mergers.

The number of "peaceful mergers" going on has been blatantly unrealistic. Mergers almost never happen in real life; the only one I can think of has been the merge of East and West Germany, which simply re-unified a country. But a number of "merger-states" I see are frankly silly. It's rediculous that all of South America save Brazil could be unified through voting given the history of the area. The FNS was one of the originals, but some other offenders are:

The SU (although this one is less objectionable because some unifications of Scandinavia have been done historically and the player played a gradual unification)
The UIR (not sure of the background on this one)
A Slightly Bigger Mexico (Latin American nations have always clung to independence historically; even when Bolivar tried to unite Gran Colombia it fell apart.)
The Vietnam-Cambodia-Laos merger (these are seperate cultures with widely differing traditions; why would they throw their lot in together?)
The Union (now dissolved, and pretty unrealistic.)
Various Conglomerations of Middle Eastern States (bad blood in this area runs deep)

On the other hand, I'd like to congratulate Kilani for a "merger" done right: he bribed the government, created unrest, sent his army in, then fixed the vote. I have no problem with that.

I would agree with Middle Snu on the Merger thing, but I do not mind nations fighting wars to be honest, but the nations have a price that has to eventually be paid by making those decisions and unfortunately for E20, People were too eager when it came to ar...

I agree with Middle Snu, specifically the fact that several new mod positions should be created to govern the new RP and to keep everything running smoothly without any massively unrealistic decisions being made. It would also help GB out a lot (I'm sure he'd appreciate a workload reduction so that he can see more of his family!). Ideally i'd like to see several new mod positions and the expansion of some old ones. A start would be:

Head mod - deciding vote in all mod decisions, oversees other decisions and keeps main thread up to date. Also decides if a player gets voted or booted out of his position in a PC in response to a bad decision, player gets to take over another country or try to regain power in old country.
War mod - old position: no real changes, manages who gets WMDs and when (to control proliferation)
Deputy war mod(S) - new position(s): at least one to help out the main mod when things get tricky, could manage a theatre of war each in world war situations and work out conflicts of interest
Economics mod - old position: manage the economics thread and keep everyone up to date with and abiding by the rules
NPC mod - old position: manage reactions of the NPC nations to PC decisions, perhaps has a few deputies to assist him, also makes rulings on mergers/splittings of nations.
NPC economics mods - sort of new position - official positions for those who do NPC builds, ideally those which they do not have any influence over to maintain partiality.
Civil Unrest mod - new position: rules whether civil unrest or protests occurs in a nation and decides the consequences (military, economic or otherwise).
Events mod - old position: governs details of events such as olympic games, world cups, world fairs etc.
Territorial mod - old position: manages peoples territorial claims and maintains the map thread,

It looks like a lot of positions but most of them are already being done in one capacity or other by various people and people can take on more than one mod job if they wish to. Its just a clarification of people's position and gives them more recognition of their job and rulings.

Any ideas?

and please no nominations for the positions yet, it's just a few ideas of mine that I thought to post...

I agree, with one caviat. The Head Mod absolutely must be Galveston Bay. He's the real force behind this RP, and if he is not head mod then the system tends to break down. (Remember Sharina's "Head Mod" position that carried no weight at all?

By the way, what is the chatzy link?

EDIT: Also, I'd like to have a full-time player just playing civil unrest and rebellion.

The number of "peaceful mergers" going on has been blatantly unrealistic. Mergers almost never happen in real life; the only one I can think of has been the merge of East and West Germany, which simply re-unified a country. But a number of "merger-states" I see are frankly silly.

A Slightly Bigger Mexico (Latin American nations have always clung to independence historically; even when Bolivar tried to unite Gran Colombia it fell apart.)

The Union (now dissolved, and pretty unrealistic.)

I would like to point out that I had gone on the record against the Union and the United States of Central America, pointing out cultural differences and the fact States tend to cling to their independence until it is forcfully taken from them, but both Vas and Mexico told me to "shut the fuck up."

(Let us agree though that once the Union was established it was played in a fairly realistic manner).

It's rediculous that all of South America save Brazil could be unified through voting given the history of the area.

I disagree there, in a world with a Super USSR in the 20s and a Socialist Brazil right next door friendly with that USSR (Brazil's Socialist period was handled realistically I might add given the attention of two mods), the FNS was perfectly realistic (remember that some unrealistic events were actually realistic responses to unrealistic actions that were allowed to slide)...and the FNS did take over one or to countries by force when those countries fell into chaos.

I agree with Middle Snu, specifically the fact that several new mod positions should be created to govern the new RP and to keep everything running smoothly without any massively unrealistic decisions being made.

Hey, I was the first to suggest that.

Head mod - deciding vote in all mod decisions, oversees other decisions and keeps main thread up to date. Also decides if a player gets voted or booted out of his position in a PC in response to a bad decision, player gets to take over another country or try to regain power in old country.

Civil Unrest mod - new position: rules whether civil unrest or protests occurs in a nation and decides the consequences (military, economic or otherwise).

Yes, that provides essential organization lacking last game.

Events mod - old position: governs details of events such as olympic games, world cups, world fairs etc.

The recording of events has been somewhat lax in E20, so we indeed need someone for this. The events mod could also keep track of certain international personalities, like Lenin, Trotsky, est. who could play very important roles depending upon what happens (last time Trotsky became one of the leaders of the Union, albeit the creation of the Union was not managed as well as it should have been, but still).

Any ideas?

As I suggested earlier, a China mod, given China's importance and complexity.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11567697&postcount=2444

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11567742&postcount=2445

I disagree there, in a world with a Super USSR in the 20s and a Socialist Brazil right next door friendly with that USSR (Brazil's Socialist period was handled realistically I might add given the attention of two mods), the FNS was perfectly realistic (remember that some unrealistic events were actually realistic responses to unrealistic actions that were allowed to slide)...and the FNS did take over one or to countries by force when those countries fell into chaos.

I was the former Argentina player, and I'd like to point out that that wasn't what happened at all. Instead, Argentina peacefully merged with Chile, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay, then this new nation (called the FNS) merged with Gran Colombia to become a superstate under Artitsa.

Brazil, by the time of the Argentine Expansion, was clearly a joke militarily and economically. Fear had nothing to do with it-my urge for effortless expansion was everything.

(Yes, I was probably the worst offender of unrealistic mergers. Part of the reason I hate them so much is that I know how easy they can be. I basically just said "I want to merge with Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Peru" and it happened, almost effortlessly.)

I was the former Argentina player, and I'd like to point out that that wasn't what happened at all. Instead, Argentina peacefully merged with Chile, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay, then this new nation (called the FNS) merged with Gran Colombia to become a superstate under Artitsa.

I agree it was unrealistic, just pointing out that in a world where the Union had already been accepted, had merged with Germany, and was working...

Current Vote Standings:
For Restart: 7
Against Restart: 7
Abstain: 2

As Clyea pointed out earlier, the continuing discussion about a restart only serves to stall the RP and detract potential/discontent members from our ranks. Thus I think this vote should be ended sometime in the near future so we can get on with RPing instead of arguing.

Against, as per the reasons stated before.