E20 Alternate History Roleplay Version 3.0 [Archive] - Page 6

Sharina

17-06-2006, 00:11

I only said that I thought it'd be nice to have a post-apocalyptic world like in "Max Max" or "Postman", and rebuild nations from scratch. For example, have Germany rebuild and take over all mainland Europe, China rebuilds and takes over Asia, Americans rebuild and take over North America, FNS rebuilds and takes over South America, and so on.

Then by the time people re-invent nukes, they will be FAR LESS likely to engage in a nuclear war the second time around.

All these silly ethnic, religious, and political stuff will be wiped clean (like the crap in the Balkans and the Middle East). New religions develop- for example, I'd love to have a new religion based on science... like "Worship the Metal or Electricity" instead of "Worship God / Jevonah / Jesus / Buddha / whatever Deity Up There" or some such thing. The idea of a whole set of new possibilities is appealing.

Besides, I'm not going to launch an all out nuclear attack at first. If the US launches a full nuclear attack or if China's weakened to a terminal point (like 80% of its military destroyed and large OA invasion forces invading China), THEN anything goes at that point... not before.

----------------------

To answer Colombia's stuff... I'm not mad about the FNS building mega-airforce. I'm just saying that if Colombia does that, then it will only escalate the arms race between OA and SCT, and make tensions and stuff much worse than it is.

If stuff like "The enemy has more aircraft than I have. Time to either spam-produce thousands more planes or design uber-fighters of d()()m!" or "The enemy has a huge intercontinental bomber fleet capable of flying straight non-stop between mainland FNS / USA to SCT lands... and not knowing if these bombers will be carrying nukes or not."

Keep in mind, Chinese strategic bombers CANNOT reach America or FNS, so they don't have to worry about Chinese strategic bombers nuking American or FNS cities (but Chinese ICBMS can). But China DOES have to worry about American and FNS strategic bombers nuking Chinese cities on the mainland PLUS the US and FNS ICBM's as well.

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Yes, I admit I'm not the brightest strategic or tactical mind here in E20. I like keeping things easy and simple to understand- besides if my E20 China existed in RL and if I were the Chinese President, I'd have teams of generals and advisors to advise me on national policy, top secret schemes, planning for the future, etc. I don't have that luxury as a player in E20 (I don't have a team of advisors to help me figure strategy and such). I can't even beat my computer at chess, and I get my ass handed to me many times by human players (not just Chess, but Checkers, Risk, and other strategy games)- I can't win even if I tried.

I joined E20 to have fun, and explore stuff I can do, and take China in different directions. However, I have to worry about the US and the OA walking all over me (nukes, military tech, devious planners like GB, etc.) and if they do walk all over me, I won't have a China left to play around with, thus, I won't have my "fun" with no China around.

Thats why I must have huge military and nuke intimidation to keep my China alive from OA + US.

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Posted this on Chatzy but it probably scrolled off the page by now. Besides, this is all OOC.

Artitsa

17-06-2006, 06:37

ooc: If you didn't want an arms race, why would you build 24 Fighter Units and 12 bomber units? How can you tell me not to?

Sharina

17-06-2006, 07:22

ooc: If you didn't want an arms race, why would you build 24 Fighter Units and 12 bomber units? How can you tell me not to?

OOC:

I had to build the fighters to give China a defense aganist US. Besides, I need numerical superiority over the US in the skies, considering the US probably will have better fighters like F-14, F-15 and so on. In addition, my fighter cover is necessary to make any US or OA carrier plane attack or bomber attack aganist China a suicidal mission.

My bombers are there to bomb the hell out of any enemy Navy force that tries to attack China, as I have no Navy besides my 10 SSN's. My Airforce is kinda acting as a stopgap Navy until I can build one. Or bomb any D-Day landings in China.

My bombers can't even reach mainland North or South America, so the US and OA has NOTHING to worry about any possible Chinese airborne offensive aganist the US and FNS and OA.

Artitsa

17-06-2006, 07:30

ooc: You had been planning on building an intercontinental bomber and what happens if you do? And IF you do, then you yourself are stepping up the race.

Sharina

17-06-2006, 07:53

ooc: You had been planning on building an intercontinental bomber and what happens if you do? And IF you do, then you yourself are stepping up the race.

OOC:

Well, I'm not building any more bombers for a long while. Even though I do have the ability to build Nova Bombers, I haven't done so. The only Nova's I'm building are AEW units.

Besides, the US and FNS already have intercontinental bombers. Even if China actually builds intercontinental bombers, it will only be done so to equal the US and FNS bombers, not to surpass them. In that case, the playing field will be level, instead of lopsided one-sided in favor of US and FNS.

Lesser Ribena

17-06-2006, 20:27

Hello guys, I shall have a lot more time now, just a few more exams to go before i'm totally free though. British builds for 62 and 63 are up (NPCs to follow) and i'll update my country's thread in a minute for changes to military etc. I'll also be posting my usual Intel update by Tuesday so all of you schemers can keep up with your meddling...

Now may I ask you all to stand and sing a rousing rendition of God Save The Queen to honour the monarch's official brithday!

PS: China: Britain has intercontinental bombers too (Avro Vulcans are IC, I think).

[NS]Parthini

17-06-2006, 20:41

LR, check your TGs.

Sukiaida

17-06-2006, 20:43

Also I am building a larger navy, doe sthat mean I am going to go and conquer people? No. Ylu need something to defend yourself with. And what i need for defense is nothing on what CHina needs on defense.

[NS]Parthini

18-06-2006, 05:03

My time online is going to be VERY limited for the next month, about. Abbassia, Kordo and Koryan have control of Germany and will know what to do.

Lesser Ribena

18-06-2006, 20:44

LR, check your TGs.

Done, cheers Parthini.

------------

Everyone: expect a reasonably large intel update on Tuesday, with 4 or 5 different schemes being resolved.

Middle Snu

18-06-2006, 21:17

Sharina, read up on your history. Nations rarely let their military dominance be challenged on an argument of "parity." China will create an arms race if she seeks to build up her military. Accept it.

Haneastic

18-06-2006, 21:22

Sharina

18-06-2006, 21:35

Y'know... I'm just about ready to give up doing military stuff- like researching military tech, developing strategies, use counter-strategies, and everything.

A 10 year old could beat me at strategy any time of the day, any time of the week. So why do I even bother trying to do military stuff anyway? I might as well give up in that area- in RL, if I was a leader of China, I'd have an entire advisor team to help me with military planning and such (generals, analysts, intelligence operatives, and even soldiers in the field). I don't have that luxury in E20.

E20 China may as well have a military leadership with the skills of a 5 year old (my military skills *ARE* that bad).

Abbassia

18-06-2006, 21:38

Don't worry most of us are, at least I am

Middle Snu

18-06-2006, 21:41

Frankly, my advice to you is to build up and maintain a huge nuclear arsenal- along with the missiles neccesary to deliver it. Give up on high-tech defense (fighters, fleets of bombers, etc.) Then announce a new nuclear policy: any overt military hostility towards the SCT will result in the total nuclear destruction of the OA.

That should ensure the peace, at least for a while, leaving you free to work on peacetime solutions.

The Lightning Star

18-06-2006, 21:44

MS, why not just join again and be done with it? :p

Haneastic

18-06-2006, 21:59

Ato-Sara

18-06-2006, 22:09

Haneastic

18-06-2006, 22:11

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: As of Wedensday, I will be gone for 4 weeks with no computer access. Ato-Sara will be doing my builds and speaking on my behalf, though any other SCT nation has permission to do the latter if Ato-Sara is pressed for time

Ato-Sara

18-06-2006, 22:14

Haneastic

18-06-2006, 22:15

yea, unless that's too much, but Warta should be back any day now

Ato-Sara

18-06-2006, 22:23

yea, unless that's too much, but Warta should be back any day now

Nah, I should be able to handle it.

Elephantum

19-06-2006, 01:00

OOC:

I wasn't here during the WWIII reparations phase, so I missed the whole "T-" series to Ukraine thing. T- is not a series (Tu-, Su-, etc. are) but a designation (like F- for US fighters, C- for cargo, etc.) . Essentially this leaves Russia with no domestic tank designs, as that system remains in RL Russia. While I'm sure America would be happy to provide, if anyone knows of some forgotten design I can use, that would be great.

Man did I pick a bad weekend to be technologically unavailable.

New Dornalia

19-06-2006, 01:05

For the next two days (some of you already know this), I'll be unavailable due to Freshman Orientation at UCONN. So don't blow up the planet while I'm gone, okay?

Elephantum

19-06-2006, 01:23

*pushes big red button*

Haneastic

19-06-2006, 01:27

Galveston Bay

19-06-2006, 02:47

Kordo

19-06-2006, 18:56

Yeah, so I'm a little confused here...

So am I playing as Saddam or The Arab Federation? Or are they the samething? Or are they seperate but I 'control' both?

Middle Snu

19-06-2006, 20:20

With some trepidation, I would like to apply to play as Italy. However, I won't be very active in posting for a couple months due to rl concerns- I'll probably just post economic builds and basic going-ons without plotting too much.

Sukiaida

19-06-2006, 20:23

Galveston Bay

19-06-2006, 21:11

Haneastic

19-06-2006, 22:45

Come on SHarina, most people here are strategic infants. It's what bothered me so much about some of the RP's as I am not. But anyways, uhh so Japan will not be available for four years in game time. ANNDDDD let me see, there will be UIR stuff. HMM so it should slow a little if Sharina isn't super active. HMMM k.

If possible I'd like to slow it down a little for now just because things seem like theyw ill heat up soon.

And Kordo, you are the Arab Federation but you're free to do whatever you want with Sadaam (hint: kill him off)

Kordo

19-06-2006, 23:06

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=488455

Factbook for the Arab Federation

Lesser Ribena

20-06-2006, 17:35

Latest Intel Update:

Indonesia and Malaysia
Politics sees a gradual shift towards a pro-Western stance from a fair period of pro-Asian politics. More and more seats in the parliament have gone to pro-Western groups, particularly those who support Australia, whom they see as a major step forward in promoting the rights of native peoples in the region through proposrtional representation in parliament. Though the a lot of the parliament remains fairly conservative in viewing Asia as their homeland and supporting continued participation in Asian politics there is an increasing number who look to the Commonwealth and Australia for their guidance.

Middle East

Baghdad
Saddam Hussein spends vast quantities of money on promoting his party and country in neighbouring countries, there is some indication of success but present troubles in the region prevent any radical changes of heart. A unit of ultra-loyal Republican Guard is raised with the specific task of performing counter-terrorist operations, their specific duty is to monitor any suspected terrorists or insurgents and to guard Saddam. This turns out to be a good plan as several remote controlled explosive devices are detected and disarmed just prior to a political rally and as a result security is stepped up dramatically. The explosives are photographed and the pictures sent to the world's media.

Arab Federation, Transjordan, Yemen
Funding increases for conservative elements who hold several rallies denouncing socialist policies. They begin extensive PR programs including airtime on local TV and Radio stations and poster campaigns. There is talk that several of the groups have formed their own cadres of trained and armed supporters, though why a political party requires such measures is left unsaid.

Haneastic

20-06-2006, 17:48

*rumages through drawer for explosive cigars*

I got a present for Sadaam

Elephantum

20-06-2006, 18:36

Russia condemns these attempted assassinations of Saddam. Those responsible are clearly joining those who oppose reasonable discussion and freedom, whether in in the Middle East, the Baltic Sea, or the Siberian tundra. Russia secretly offers to send a KGB team to help Saddam find those responsible.

While the Duma remains divided about granting export licenses, licenses to the following countries are permitted:
-Morocco
-Algeria (who both would probably buy American anyways)
-Syria

The Duma is expected to issue export licenses allowing sales to Egypt soon, and the KGB team going to the Arab Federation will report back on conditions there. The Yak-38, currently in pre-production tests, will not be exported to any Middle Eastern nations.

The Lightning Star

20-06-2006, 18:50

BTW; I've given Jordan like 10 points over the past 2 years. What would that to Jordans Foreign Policy and Domestic Policies?

Sukiaida

20-06-2006, 23:52

The UIP wonders if Malyasia might wish to set up a ferry between our islands and theres. It would help with the current influx of some workers for each and help keep our communications in better states.

Koryan

21-06-2006, 01:04

BTW; I've given Jordan like 10 points over the past 2 years. What would that to Jordans Foreign Policy and Domestic Policies?

OOC: That's a waste of points. Jordan has no natural resources, a small population, a tiny military, and is politically retarded (is Arab Socialist so the conservatives hate him but refuses to help his fellow Socialists so they hate him).

Sharina

21-06-2006, 02:52

A heads up.

A player I've known since 2004 might be interested in joining. I've RP'ed with him across several different RP's and I can personally vouch for him. His username is USSNA.

He hasn't picked a nation or anything yet- but hopefully he'll join us and fill out E20 some more. :)

Artitsa

21-06-2006, 04:37

God not USSNA!!!

Yes I'll also vouch for him.

The Lightning Star

21-06-2006, 13:41

OOC: That's a waste of points. Jordan has no natural resources, a small population, a tiny military, and is politically retarded (is Arab Socialist so the conservatives hate him but refuses to help his fellow Socialists so they hate him).

OOC: The perfect puppet :)

These points help build support for Pakistan in Jordan, thus giving me a potential ally in the area. The more points I funnel in, the more Jordan becomes reliant on me. The more Jordan becomes reliant on me, the easier it is for me to control it...

Galveston Bay

21-06-2006, 16:49

OOC: The perfect puppet :)

These points help build support for Pakistan in Jordan, thus giving me a potential ally in the area. The more points I funnel in, the more Jordan becomes reliant on me. The more Jordan becomes reliant on me, the easier it is for me to control it...

you are assuming that the Jordanian government is going to be willing to do that.. why should they? Historical example: the Soviet Union spent billions on Egypt prior to the 1973 War. Then Sadat kicked them out, fought the war, and became reliant on the US shortly after.

Doesn't always pay offf

Koryan

21-06-2006, 18:47

OOC: The perfect puppet :)

These points help build support for Pakistan in Jordan, thus giving me a potential ally in the area. The more points I funnel in, the more Jordan becomes reliant on me. The more Jordan becomes reliant on me, the easier it is for me to control it...

You guys and your money. What do you think we are, a bunch of cheap mercenaries? (Just ask the Parthini and Safehaven, Middle Eastern mercenaries don't come cheap) :D

Btw, is the Arab League on bad terms with Pakistan? I didn't think we were but the whole SCT seems to have become a more aggressive in the region. I used to think the AL and SCT just had that "you do your thing and I'll do mine" attitude.

Ato-Sara

21-06-2006, 18:58

You guys and your money. What do you think we are, a bunch of cheap mercenaries? (Just ask the Parthini and Safehaven, Middle Eastern mercenaries don't come cheap) :D

Btw, is the Arab League on bad terms with Pakistan? I didn't think we were but the whole SCT seems to have become a more aggressive in the region. I used to think the AL and SCT just had that "you do your thing and I'll do mine" attitude.

OOC:
Its still mostly that way (China, Phillipines, Korea, Burma, etc. have no intrest in the AL at this point in time), except rising tensions with the OA have forced us to try and look for ways to increase our membership.
Places like Basra which have been under SCT influnce for a while have become prime candidates for recruitment.
However if Egypt really objects to stuff we are doing just get them to say so and we will back off.
I don't have a clue what Japan and Pakistan are doing in Jordan and personally I don't really approve of it. Its enroaching on AL turf just for the sake of it, which is kinda pointless.

Sukiaida

21-06-2006, 19:19

Yeah mostly because alot of the SCT members see no point in the middle east as our oil comes from other networks at this time.

The Lightning Star

21-06-2006, 20:06

OOC:
Its still mostly that way (China, Phillipines, Korea, Burma, etc. have no intrest in the AL at this point in time), except rising tensions with the OA have forced us to try and look for ways to increase our membership.
Places like Basra which have been under SCT influnce for a while have become prime candidates for recruitment.
However if Egypt really objects to stuff we are doing just get them to say so and we will back off.
I don't have a clue what Japan and Pakistan are doing in Jordan and personally I don't really approve of it. Its enroaching on AL turf just for the sake of it, which is kinda pointless.

OOC: Just for the sake of it? Not in my case. I used to be a major player in the region, during the MEU, and then when I had control of Iran and Afghanistan for a decade. I still have a lot of interest in the Middle East, and seeing how about 200 million Pakistanis are Muslims, I have a lot of religious ties to the region too. If some religious nutjobs get into a very strong position and then Jihad the Pakistani government, there'll be at least 20 million rebellious Muslims; and Muslims are in very high positions in Pakistan.

Also, the Middle East is a key area; Pakistan needs a lot of oil, and our reserves are so small, and we get a lot of our oil from the Middle East, due to the fact that it is much, much closer. You guys can get oil from Siberia or the South China Sea because you guys are closer to them. Due to the Kra Canal, it might get easier, but the Middle East is still the closest source of oil. Pakistan has always been more of the outcast member of the SCT (and, on a semi-related note, Pakistan never voted to accept Bhutan and Nepal into the SCT, and Pakistan is still kinda pissed off that China annexed Tibet after we had funneled like 50 points into it), and we will probably remain the outcast for some time. We have seen few benefits from being in the SCT, and while we're not thinking of leaving (just because we haven't seen a lot of benefits doesn't mean we don't like the SCT, Pakistanis overwhelming support being a member of it), we aren't really filled with thoughts of warm and fuzzy love whenever we hear the term. In reality, we just like the SCT so much because we hate America so much.

Haneastic

21-06-2006, 20:10

Kordo

21-06-2006, 20:22

Plus all the oil in the region that Sadaam could very potentially threaten

ooc:
Threaten? Not quite sure what you mean by that but....

Anyway Saddam wouldn't be so angry if all the SCT members kept involving themselves in 'arab' territory. He sees the UIR and Pakistan as puppet governments of greater china. Or at least he say them that way after troops landed in the UIR.

Sukiaida

21-06-2006, 20:45

Pakistan is in the SCT? I gotta look at this membership more often.

Ato-Sara

21-06-2006, 21:32

ooc:
Threaten? Not quite sure what you mean by that but....

Anyway Saddam wouldn't be so angry if all the SCT members kept involving themselves in 'arab' territory. He sees the UIR and Pakistan as puppet governments of greater china. Or at least he say them that way after troops landed in the UIR.

Eh? There are no SCT troops in Pakistan and the UIR other than what those nations have as their own army.

Koryan

21-06-2006, 23:31

I'm not doing much in Jordan, I've already declared no military forces except in the UIR unless I was attacked. I wouldn't have done anything but Egypt started getting very aggressive toward Jordan. Plus all the oil in the region that Sadaam could very potentially threaten

OOC: I cancelled a defense pact because he wouldn't let my soldiers drive through empty desert. And General Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr is the leader of the Ba'ath forces in Arabia. Saddam is the second-in-command. Kordo can change this if he wants, I'm just saying that was how it was historically.

Lastly, who says Kordo will risk invading Commonwealth nations when Arabia already has about 20 times more oil than he'll ever need? Even if he transforms his country into a massive industrial empire with a giant army, he'll still have plenty of oil to export.

Galveston Bay

21-06-2006, 23:54

We have seen few benefits from being in the SCT, and while we're not thinking of leaving (just because we haven't seen a lot of benefits doesn't mean we don't like the SCT, Pakistanis overwhelming support being a member of it), we aren't really filled with thoughts of warm and fuzzy love whenever we hear the term. In reality, we just like the SCT so much because we hate America so much.

A reasonable IC reason for that stance is called for, after all, it was the Russians who invaded the Indian Subcontinent in one war and nuked it in the next. What specifically have the Americans done to India?

Realism is required in this RP, so come up with a good justification for this. I would think most Hindus have no strong feelings against America for one thing, or most Moslems either. The US hasn't created Israel to piss of the Moslems, nor is it all that big a force in the Mideast. The only US presence in South Asia is in the Indian Ocean and most Pakistanis have no idea or little idea the US is there at all. Bollywood is derived from the American film industry, and so on.

So exactly why are you playing Pakistan like this.

The Lightning Star

22-06-2006, 00:33

A reasonable IC reason for that stance is called for, after all, it was the Russians who invaded the Indian Subcontinent in one war and nuked it in the next. What specifically have the Americans done to India?

Realism is required in this RP, so come up with a good justification for this. I would think most Hindus have no strong feelings against America for one thing, or most Moslems either. The US hasn't created Israel to piss of the Moslems, nor is it all that big a force in the Mideast. The only US presence in South Asia is in the Indian Ocean and most Pakistanis have no idea or little idea the US is there at all. Bollywood is derived from the American film industry, and so on.

So exactly why are you playing Pakistan like this.

I don't love Russia any, either. However, here are a few reasons;

1. I really, really, really didn't want to get involved in WWIII. Last I checked, I wasn't consulted when India suddenly switched from its moderate, "we hate America AND Russia" stance to, "WE LOVE AMERICA! DEATH TO RUSSIA!" Granted, I didn't complain much due to the fact that I had just gained the oil-rich lands of Iran, which I would later loose due to the fact the western-backed dictator was overthrown by the very people who had kept him in power. In retrospect, very bad decision.

2. The war wasn't popular AT ALL in what was then India. The government had been spouting messages of neutrality, and then quickly switched to aid the LTA for no good reason, and that peeved off the Indians enough. However, the nuclear weapons were the final touch. Ever wonder WHY Jinnah was overthrown as soon as I took control of Pakistan after the jump?

3. America funded groups with aims to forcefully leave India/Pakistan, and everyone knows it. There's little concrete proof, but then again, was there a lot of concrete proof that the U.S. was funding the Contras? Only reason the publics suspicions were proved true was because some Lebanese magazine exposed it.

4. America firmly wants to maintain its hegemony on the world. Pakistan wants Asia to group together to fight America so that Asia can have its day. Pakistans economy is one of the largest in the world (unfortunatly, it isn't large enough and isn't growing fast enough), and it views an America trying to maintain its hegemony over the world as a threat to Pakistan becoming a key world player.

Elephantum

22-06-2006, 00:41

Since the Seoul-Saigon rally is done or almost done, I figured we need some new character RP. I came up with a few ideas:

-International Air Show
Russia would be willing to host. Lots of new aircraft are coming out soon, many in 1964, and this would be a chance to have different pilots and planes interact. It could even have a little wargame influence (see how a Tornado performs one on one vs. a Su-24 or MiG-23 or something) Nations could either send pilots and planes or, for those without aerospace industries, scouts looking for future purchases and opponents.

-Science+Technology Expo
Flout various advancements, both in-game (ethanol, micro-electronics, Space Programs) and cosmetic.

-UN World Leaders Gala
Germany likes to RP the Kaiserin, so, thinking along those lines, we could have some ceremony at the UN where the various Presidents and Prime Ministers (or Vice Presidents and Secretaries of State if they can't be bothered) meet and get a bit tipsy. I tried to get something like this on E2 for ages, but an inconvient invasion ruined my plans.

-Olympic Athletes
With the Winter games in Switzerland (to prevent a Russian embargo) we could have members of the Olympic teams in the Olympic village. The Summer games or FIFA World Cup would work just as well.

Any thoughts?

Galveston Bay

22-06-2006, 00:46

I don't love Russia any, either. However, here are a few reasons;

1. I really, really, really didn't want to get involved in WWIII. Last I checked, I wasn't consulted when India suddenly switched from its moderate, "we hate America AND Russia" stance to, "WE LOVE AMERICA! DEATH TO RUSSIA!" Granted, I didn't complain much due to the fact that I had just gained the oil-rich lands of Iran, which I would later loose due to the fact the western-backed dictator was overthrown by the very people who had kept him in power.

thats an OOC reason why you wouldn't be happy, not an IC reason why the people of India wouldn't be happy. The LTA pressured India to stay neutral or side with the LTA, but the US didn't directly, and Indian soldiers did little more then annex Afghanistan and Persia during the war, which was in line with your orders

2. The war wasn't popular AT ALL in what was then India. The government had been spouting messages of neutrality, and then quickly switched to aid the LTA for no good reason, and that peeved off the Indians enough. However, the nuclear weapons were the final touch. Ever wonder WHY Jinnah was overthrown as soon as I took control of Pakistan after the jump?

once again, an OOC reason. Some of us as players have serious reservations about an India that calls itself Pakistan where the majority of the population (by far) is Hindu not Moslem. I personally think a more likely result would have been an all out civil war and a division of India into India and Pakistan as in real life as the underlying reasons for that event have not been addressed by you except for Pakistan being an authoritarian state

3. America funded groups with aims to forcefully leave India/Pakistan, and everyone knows it. There's little concrete proof, but then again, was there a lot of concrete proof that the U.S. was funding the Contras? Only reason the publics suspicions were proved true was because some Lebanese magazine exposed it.

America funded Hindu groups calling for peaceful seperation and never provided weapons etc OOC wise and IC wise. So forcefully is incorrect. Now IC the Moslem portion of that government might believe it, but why would the Hindus be against that exactly?

4. America firmly wants to maintain its hegemony on the world. Pakistan wants Asia to group together to fight America so that Asia can have its day. Pakistans economy is one of the largest in the world (unfortunatly, it isn't large enough and isn't growing fast enough), and it views an America trying to maintain its hegemony over the world as a threat to Pakistan becoming a key world player.

That is the only real IC reason you have, and once again, the Pakistani ruling class might care, but I seriously doubt the rest of the population of India does. Especially when the US sent assitance from the Centers of Disease Control (which along with the World Health Organization) stopped the various nasty bugs the Soviets sent you.

USSNA

22-06-2006, 03:11

Hey fellas. I would like to join this little party under Indonesia. :)

Sharina

22-06-2006, 03:29

Hey fellas. I would like to join this little party under Indonesia. :)

Great!

All you have to do is to make an Indonesia factbook thread for E20. Look at some of the various player factbook threads listed in the first post in this thread for examples.

Then if you have any questions about the economy, military, and builds stuff feel free to ask me and other E20 players.

Sharina

22-06-2006, 03:31

For those who are interested...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11210905&postcount=64

(Chinese cars, trucks, and motorcycles)

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11211005&postcount=65

(New Chinese technology plans for development)

Sharina

22-06-2006, 07:33

The Lightning Star

22-06-2006, 15:03

thats an OOC reason why you wouldn't be happy, not an IC reason why the people of India wouldn't be happy. The LTA pressured India to stay neutral or side with the LTA, but the US didn't directly, and Indian soldiers did little more then annex Afghanistan and Persia during the war, which was in line with your orders

Not only an OOC reason. If, for example, today President Bush announced that the War on Terrorism was stupid, and that we'd be pulling out of Iraq tommorrow, how much do you think the public would like that? Perhaps this is a bad example, because most people don't agree with the war in Iraq, but whatever respectability GWB had would be down the toilet, and the government would instantly become unpopular. Even more so when the PEACE is popular, and then the government that has been preaching PEACE suddenly switched to WAR mode.

once again, an OOC reason. Some of us as players have serious reservations about an India that calls itself Pakistan where the majority of the population (by far) is Hindu not Moslem. I personally think a more likely result would have been an all out civil war and a division of India into India and Pakistan as in real life as the underlying reasons for that event have not been addressed by you except for Pakistan being an authoritarian state

For one thing, Pakistan does not mean "LAND OF THE MUSLIMS", it means "LAND OF THE PURE". Muslims and Hindus are given the same constitutional rights as one another (as are Sikhs, Jains, Zoroastrians, Jews, etc). It's the only way a unified India could work, since the sub-continent has so many religions.

Also, Muslims make up around 460 million people on the Indian subcontinent IRL, about 35-40% of the population. There are 700 million Hindus on the Indian subcontinent IRL, roughly making up the remaining part (I think sikhs might make up 1 or 2 percent, but meh). Hindus outnumber the Muslims, but Muslims still make up a huge proportion. Take into account that in this timeline, Pakistan has also aquired more lands full of Muslims (a sizeable chunk of Iran and a small part of Afghanistan), the Bengali famine killing off 40 million people instead of around 3 million, and I'd say that the current numbers of Muslims are 200 million (in E20 in 1964), and the Hindu numbers are around 255 (with the remaining 5 million being misc.).

America funded Hindu groups calling for peaceful seperation and never provided weapons etc OOC wise and IC wise. So forcefully is incorrect. Now IC the Moslem portion of that government might believe it, but why would the Hindus be against that exactly?

The Hindus would be against it because the vast majority of the population doesn't want to leave Pakistan. It's not a religious thing. No one is opressed; the idea of founding a seperate state never took up much steam in India because unlike in real life, Britain wasn't trying to splinter up the Indian subcontinent (it's widely accepted that if it wasn't for the British governments support, the Pakistan movement wouldn't have gained much steam). Hell, India was granted independence in this timeline before the Pakistan movement even became widely known IRL. The Hindus and Muslims don't really view themselves as "Muslims first, Pakistani's second". No. They view themselves as "Pakistanis above all". The radical Muslims all went off to the UIR after the civil war. Anyone who advocates seperation is instantly despised in Pakistan, almost like they would be in the United States (until the 2004 election, when everyone was saying the Blue states should split off and join Canada).

That is the only real IC reason you have, and once again, the Pakistani ruling class might care, but I seriously doubt the rest of the population of India does. Especially when the US sent assitance from the Centers of Disease Control (which along with the World Health Organization) stopped the various nasty bugs the Soviets sent you.

The U.S. only sent token assistance, compared to our other allies (just for the record, everyone, Great Britain is still immensly popular in Pakistan, seeing how it and other commonwealth members sent loads of assistance to help us after the war. Hence, all members of the Commonwealth are seen in good lights in Pakistan). If they had managed to "stop the various nasty bugs the Soviets sent" us, then there wouldn't have been 40 million dead, now would there? Granted, the LTA assistance did probably help a bit (maybe saving 5-10 million people), but it wasn't as if you managed to reduce casualties by 50%.

Here's another reason; Propaganda. If you didn't notice, my country was ruled by Ayub Khan for like 8 years. He was fiercely anti-American. He wasn't a democratically elected leader for at least 1 year after he took power, and for the 8 years he was in power he had immense popularity. He took the opportunity to flood the system with Propaganda, talking about how "America's Puppet" Yahya Khan had been sent by the "imperialist Americans" to make all of India America's Puppet. Of course, that's pretty much false (beyond the fact that the west supported Yahya over the opposition, since the opposition didn't like the west so much), but it's propaganda; what are you gonna do?

Another reason; China is a much, much closer ally to Pakistan than America is. China doesn't really like America. Ergo, Pakistan doesn't really like America since its most important ally doesn't like America.

Finally, my final reason; I want Pakistan to be anti-American. I know that's a bad reason, and I try really hard to not let my biases intervene, but it goes deep into my brain; Indian Subcontinent shouldn't be friends with America when there's big and powerful China right next door. It's not that in real life I'm anti-American (I'm from a diplomat family, loving America has been drummed into my head since I could talk), but sometimes I just want to play the anti-American. This is a poor reason for Pakistan being anti-American, but it is a reason.

New Dornalia

22-06-2006, 17:28

-Science+Technology Expo
Flout various advancements, both in-game (ethanol, micro-electronics, Space Programs) and cosmetic.

-UN World Leaders Gala
Germany likes to RP the Kaiserin, so, thinking along those lines, we could have some ceremony at the UN where the various Presidents and Prime Ministers (or Vice Presidents and Secretaries of State if they can't be bothered) meet and get a bit tipsy. I tried to get something like this on E2 for ages, but an inconvient invasion ruined my plans.

These two are at the top of my list. Perhaps the Emperor could have a banquet for world leaders to attend?

Or better yet, we could have an international film festival at Cannes, Venice, or Sundance. Akira Kurosawa v. Sergio Leone, John Wayne v. Toshiro Mifune, or Sam Peckinpah v. E20's Kim Jong Il are some matchups I'd like to see.

Abbassia

22-06-2006, 21:49

For one thing, Pakistan does not mean "LAND OF THE MUSLIMS", it means "LAND OF THE PURE". Muslims and Hindus are given the same constitutional rights as one another (as are Sikhs, Jains, Zoroastrians, Jews, etc). It's the only way a unified India could work, since the sub-continent has so many religions.

Although that is in Urdu in Persian not Hindi, but since you claim that about 35-40% is muslim but the other 60-65% might not be so happy about it, although another story for the name "Pakistan" as an acronym of the names of the "Muslim homelands" of western India — P for Punjab, A for Afghania (the Afghan areas), K for Kashmir, S for Sindh and tan for Balochistan. An i was later added to the English rendition of the name to ease pronunciation.

The Hindus would be against it because the vast majority of the population doesn't want to leave Pakistan. It's not a religious thing. No one is opressed; the idea of founding a seperate state never took up much steam in India because unlike in real life, Britain wasn't trying to splinter up the Indian subcontinent (it's widely accepted that if it wasn't for the British governments support, the Pakistan movement wouldn't have gained much steam). Hell, India was granted independence in this timeline before the Pakistan movement even became widely known IRL. The Hindus and Muslims don't really view themselves as "Muslims first, Pakistani's second". No. They view themselves as "Pakistanis above all". The radical Muslims all went off to the UIR after the civil war. Anyone who advocates seperation is instantly despised in Pakistan, almost like they would be in the United States (until the 2004 election, when everyone was saying the Blue states should split off and join Canada).

Although when I played as the socialists I took the liberty to slightly change their goals to that Democracy can be restored, but since the socialists are gaining power I can't complain...

The U.S. only sent token assistance, compared to our other allies (just for the record, everyone, Great Britain is still immensly popular in Pakistan, seeing how it and other commonwealth members sent loads of assistance to help us after the war. Hence, all members of the Commonwealth are seen in good lights in Pakistan). If they had managed to "stop the various nasty bugs the Soviets sent" us, then there wouldn't have been 40 million dead, now would there? Granted, the LTA assistance did probably help a bit (maybe saving 5-10 million people), but it wasn't as if you managed to reduce casualties by 50%.

I thought the US and Britain worked together to help India being allies and everything, besides you can't blame the Americans because the Soviet Chemical attacked you, that would be like if the French Blamed the Americans for stopping the Germans before they conquered France. You know slightly ungrateful since America was nuked.

Well these are my unexpert opinion, just had to say it...

Galveston Bay

22-06-2006, 21:55

I thought the US and Britain worked together to help India being allies and everything, besides you can't blame the Americans because the Soviet Chemical attacked you, that would be like if the French Blamed the Americans for stopping the Germans before they conquered France. You know slightly ungrateful since America was nuked.

Well these are my unexpert opinion, just had to say it...

the US did, in the 2nd Great War it paid for most of the Indian ground troops (reequipping or rebuilding a corps every turn for 2 years... 12 in all), and provided sizeable assistance post Third Great War with decontimination and disease reduction.

Hucclecote

22-06-2006, 23:01

Hi, can I claim a country in this thread?

The Lightning Star

22-06-2006, 23:21

Although that is in Urdu in Persian not Hindi, but since you claim that about 35-40% is muslim but the other 60-65% might not be so happy about it, although another story for the name "Pakistan" as an acronym of the names of the "Muslim homelands" of western India — P for Punjab, A for Afghania (the Afghan areas), K for Kashmir, S for Sindh and tan for Balochistan. An i was later added to the English rendition of the name to ease pronunciation.

Urdu and Hindi are nearly exactly the same, just written in different scripts. It's kinda like Romanian and Moldovan. Hence why the official languages of Pakistan are Hindustani(both in Hindi and Urdu script) and English.

I thought the US and Britain worked together to help India being allies and everything, besides you can't blame the Americans because the Soviet Chemical attacked you, that would be like if the French Blamed the Americans for stopping the Germans before they conquered France. You know slightly ungrateful since America was nuked.

Well these are my unexpert opinion, just had to say it...

The UK gave much more assistance to India after the war, giving us enough money to re-start our economy. If it wasn't for the UK and other commonwealth members foreign assistance, Pakistans economy would be at around 130 points right now, 50 less than I currently have.

I don't blame the Americans for getting me nuked; I blame them for starting the war which got me nuked, and bringing me in with them. I know you'll say I agree'd to India being drawn into the LTA side, but thats only because 1. I was promised Afghanistan and Iran, and 2. Because GB made it so that the MEU, that had no plans to join the war until 1944 (by which time the war would be over), suddenly joined the war in 1940, thus putting my ally (India and the MEU had, prior to the drop-out of all the pro-Russian players, created the "Axis", our own alliance which would begin "liberating" a bunch of European colonies) on the side of the Commies, so GB somehow made that so that I would join the opposite side of my strongest ally.

Hucclecote

22-06-2006, 23:34

Can I join as México if at all possible?

Galveston Bay

23-06-2006, 00:18

Can I join as México if at all possible?

do you meet the requirements on page one of this thread? (Experienced RPer with strong history background) or at least have a strong background in history?

Galveston Bay

23-06-2006, 00:23

The UK gave much more assistance to India after the war, giving us enough money to re-start our economy. If it wasn't for the UK and other commonwealth members foreign assistance, Pakistans economy would be at around 130 points right now, 50 less than I currently have..

while that explains pro Commonwealth feelings, it doesn't explain why you have anti US feelings

I don't blame the Americans for getting me nuked; I blame them for starting the war which got me nuked, and bringing me in with them. I know you'll say I agree'd to India being drawn into the LTA side, but thats only because 1. I was promised Afghanistan and Iran, and 2. Because GB made it so that the MEU, that had no plans to join the war until 1944 (by which time the war would be over), suddenly joined the war in 1940, thus putting my ally (India and the MEU had, prior to the drop-out of all the pro-Russian players, created the "Axis", our own alliance which would begin "liberating" a bunch of European colonies) on the side of the Commies, so GB somehow made that so that I would join the opposite side of my strongest ally.

once again, that is an OOC reason, not an IC reason for the government of India or more importantly its people being anti American. Your wanting to play an anti American nation aside, India is a democracy according to you and why is that party staying in power? Come up with a reason.

As far as the OOC reason is concerned. India was targeted for dismemberment if you had picked the wrong side. Instead of invading Rumania in the third year of the war, the LTA would have invaded you and carved out Hindu states and destroyed any Moslem ones. If anything, you got off lightly by picking the right side. Whatever weapons that would have been required would have been used as a pro Union India too threatening to China or the Middle East. The Union would have sent everything it could to keep the fighting going too, so India would have been thoroughly fought over and much further down the list of places to be rebuilt postwar.

A pro Union India would have prolonged the war by at least a year, and the way nuclear weapons were being used in the end, simply resulted in more devastation to Eurasia (as remember, the first thing the US nuked was the Union nuclear production facilities). More biological and chemical weapons would have been used the death toll would have increased substantially.

But the Union and its allies would still have lost.

A 1944 move by the MEU and India to pick up colonies would have been defeated by LTA using nuclear weapons if necessary.

Safehaven2

23-06-2006, 00:27

The Lightning Star

23-06-2006, 01:52

TLS, There are probaly at least twice as many Hindus than Muslims, the tiny parts of Iran and Afghanistan that you control are not that populated and aren't going to boost your Muslim popultion by much. I to have to wonder how the Muslim minority has kept power so easily over a Hindu majority when historically the two groups have hated each other? Now, especially witht he example given by the UIR in gaining independence, I'd think there'd be even more problems.

Anyway's, I'm back home now. I'll get back into things in a day or two once I get in all the new info.

The Muslims aren't the Hindus overlords (Nehru is President, and last I checked, he was a neutral Hindu), however, there were many rich Muslims, so they were able to fund political campaigns. The Muslims mostly side with the Imperialist Party and the Muslim League, and if you didn't check, those parties are on the downturn.

Also, the groups didn't historically hate each other; they got along pretty well before the 1930's Pakistan movement (which IRL was created by the British, and Pakistan achieved independence before the RL Pakistan movement was created). Now, they weren't the bestest best friends ever, but much of the stuff that causes modern-day strife between Muslims and Hindus doesn't exist. All of the crazies who hated Hindus left for the UIR, anyhoo.

The Lightning Star

23-06-2006, 02:05

once again, that is an OOC reason, not an IC reason for the government of India or more importantly its people being anti American. Your wanting to play an anti American nation aside, India is a democracy according to you and why is that party staying in power? Come up with a reason.

Which party? The Indian Imperialist Party (which was anti-American) was replaced by the Communist Party of Pakistan(Trotskyist, which is also Anti-American for obvious reasons), so I don't get what you mean by "staying in power". The CPP(T) came to power due to the fact the IIP wasn't delivering enough social benefits to the people, even though the economy had grown substantially. The CPP(T) increasing funding for Social Programs, so they are popular amongst the poor, who make up the majority of the population. Remember, however, that the CPP(T), isn't Pakistans largest party; the Satyagraha Party is, and while they are somewhat anti-American, they are Gandhi-Socialists. However, their peaceful Gandhi-Socialism is still outnumbered by the anti-Americanism of the CPP(T) and the IIP (although it is helped by the neutrality of the Muslim and Zoroastrian Leagues), thus leading to Pakistans anti-American foreign policy yet shrinking military budget. These parties don't come to power on their anti-Americanism, but they are anti-American none the less.

As far as the OOC reason is concerned. India was targeted for dismemberment if you had picked the wrong side. Instead of invading Rumania in the third year of the war, the LTA would have invaded you and carved out Hindu states and destroyed any Moslem ones. If anything, you got off lightly by picking the right side. Whatever weapons that would have been required would have been used as a pro Union India too threatening to China or the Middle East. The Union would have sent everything it could to keep the fighting going too, so India would have been thoroughly fought over and much further down the list of places to be rebuilt postwar.

A pro Union India would have prolonged the war by at least a year, and the way nuclear weapons were being used in the end, simply resulted in more devastation to Eurasia (as remember, the first thing the US nuked was the Union nuclear production facilities). More biological and chemical weapons would have been used the death toll would have increased substantially.

But the Union and its allies would still have lost.

A 1944 move by the MEU and India to pick up colonies would have been defeated by LTA using nuclear weapons if necessary.

That's why it was my intention all along to stay neutral (by 1944, if the LTA had been kicking as much ass as it was RL, I woulda stayed neutral and convinced the MEU that joining in woulda been suicide) unless the LTA positions were ripe for the taking. I coulda raised at least 20 motorized corpss by 1944, which woulda been more than enough to resist an Amerikaner invasion. Also, using nuclear weapons on a nation which had never harmed or targeting any LTA nations homelands (I don't think the American public would be willing to nuke India over the UK loosing Burma, and while the British woulda been PO'd over India taking Burma, it was just Burma, not like we invaded Wales or anything) would be immensely unpopular. I mean, if the Hiroshima Nukings are unpopular NOW, and that was AFTER Japan had attacked the American homeland, imagine what a nuclear attack on India would do.

Galveston Bay

23-06-2006, 04:59

That's why it was my intention all along to stay neutral (by 1944, if the LTA had been kicking as much ass as it was RL, I woulda stayed neutral and convinced the MEU that joining in woulda been suicide) unless the LTA positions were ripe for the taking. I coulda raised at least 20 motorized corpss by 1944, which woulda been more than enough to resist an Amerikaner invasion. Also, using nuclear weapons on a nation which had never harmed or targeting any LTA nations homelands (I don't think the American public would be willing to nuke India over the UK loosing Burma, and while the British woulda been PO'd over India taking Burma, it was just Burma, not like we invaded Wales or anything) would be immensely unpopular. I mean, if the Hiroshima Nukings are unpopular NOW, and that was AFTER Japan had attacked the American homeland, imagine what a nuclear attack on India would do.

The LTA fleets would have cut off your oil supply readily and easily, and then you would have had 20 infantry corps and no fuel for an air force. No pipelines connect the Persian oilfields to India, so you have to have commerce to move oil, and navies are good at eliminating commerce if you don't have a strong enough navy to defend it. Nukes wouldn't have been used on cities, but on major troop concentrations, and after fighting the commies for 5 years, the American people would have not been in the mood to put up with a long war. Incidently, invading Burma isn't easy, the terrain is difficult, and to hold it all the British had to do is hold Rangoon and keep open their sea lanes and let you batter againt the defenses while they would have been free to land anywhere they wanted on the Indian coast.

Not nearly as easy as you might think to defeat in a conventional war a naval power.

That said, you got the Persian oil fields for a decade as a result of the war, and only pissed off the West after you used chemical weapons on the Afghanis.

The MEU was going down whether he chose to be neutral or not. We needed access to the Black Sea and to deny the Union Mid East oil. As the player left, I had the MEU government pick the option most likely to bring about survival, which was immediate help from the Union from the beginning. The fact that the LTA concentrated the bulk of their mobile forces against the MEU and the fact the MEU position was indefensible was simply LTA strategy.

Either way, the MEU was going down. It was a question of whether India was going with it, and the British and Americans discussed possibilities regarding India at length.

Besides, the MEU player did a non neutral act be gifting the Union its entire surface fleet, which is definitely a hostile act in the world of Realpolitik

The Lightning Star

23-06-2006, 16:02

The LTA fleets would have cut off your oil supply readily and easily, and then you would have had 20 infantry corps and no fuel for an air force. No pipelines connect the Persian oilfields to India, so you have to have commerce to move oil, and navies are good at eliminating commerce if you don't have a strong enough navy to defend it. Nukes wouldn't have been used on cities, but on major troop concentrations, and after fighting the commies for 5 years, the American people would have not been in the mood to put up with a long war. Incidently, invading Burma isn't easy, the terrain is difficult, and to hold it all the British had to do is hold Rangoon and keep open their sea lanes and let you batter againt the defenses while they would have been free to land anywhere they wanted on the Indian coast.

Japan managed to take Burma, and so could India. Also, it's not as if I would've left India undefended. Although, I guess the situation is moot, since we both know that once you had taken out the Union, you woulda had like 100 corps to send at India, and my economy wouldn't be able to build as many troops so quickly (at most, I could've raised maybe 40 corps to defend myself, and they would've been poorly armed and poorly trained). My whole plan was riding on the fact of the Union winning (and there was the slight chance it could've, too, IMO, if Vas and the rest of the Pact had just stayed in the damn game and played it out), though, so once the Union and the MEU had both fallen, and I was the last remaining Pact nation, I would've surrendered.

Not nearly as easy as you might think to defeat in a conventional war a naval power.

My whole plan was for that the Union navy would've been enough to keep you at bay, and I'd raise a small navy which would be enough to keep open the oil-lines so that I could maintain my war machine.

That said, you got the Persian oil fields for a decade as a result of the war, and only pissed off the West after you used chemical weapons on the Afghanis.

And I'm sure that if the US had a civil war right now, and its only chance of winning the war against the rebels would be to drop chemical weapons on one of their key cities, you woulda taken that path.

The MEU was going down whether he chose to be neutral or not. We needed access to the Black Sea and to deny the Union Mid East oil. As the player left, I had the MEU government pick the option most likely to bring about survival, which was immediate help from the Union from the beginning. The fact that the LTA concentrated the bulk of their mobile forces against the MEU and the fact the MEU position was indefensible was simply LTA strategy.

Either way, the MEU was going down. It was a question of whether India was going with it, and the British and Americans discussed possibilities regarding India at length.

Y'see, if you had attack the MEU first, unprovoked, my hands would be tied and I would have to intervene on his side. If the war was going bad for the MEU, I would've probably withdrawn my forces from Burma, leaving like 5 corps on the border, and then sent another 10 corps via rail to assist the MEU. Not enough to drastically turn the tide, but with my assistance, the MEU could've held out in the mountains of Turkey, Kurdistan, and Persia. Granted, you would still probably cut their oil output by 80%, but with my 10 corps (plus the troops I already had in the Persia region), taking down the MEU would've been a lot harder. Granted, once the Union fell, you'd still be able to win, so the most I'd accomplish would be prolonging the war by maybe a year.

Warta Endor

23-06-2006, 16:14

Well, my huge pile of schoolwork is gone, I've had all my tests and exams, I'm back!

Has anything happened? I saw something about the Siberia Crisis?

Ato-Sara

23-06-2006, 18:38

Well, my huge pile of schoolwork is gone, I've had all my tests and exams, I'm back!

Has anything happened? I saw something about the Siberia Crisis?

Well it started like this...... :p

Good to have yah back Warta! Haneastic has been doing the UIR's stuff whilst you've been gone.

As for recent events:

The Siberian Crisis was a failed plot by us evil little Asians to wrest Siberia from Russian control so we culd gorge ourselves on their bountiful resources. (Lol)
As in all good stories, the good guy westerners found out and preceded to threaten to nuke us seven ways to hell. Naturally we didn't like this idea too much and backed down. (Me taking the blame for everybody)

The OA (Oceanic Alliance made up of America et al.) then decided it needed to counter the huge SCT threat (:rolleyes:) and started on a huge membership and military build up (Even thought they could still pwn us with a blunt stick and one hand behind their backs if they wanted to.)

More recently some trouble is brewing in the Middle East around a crazy little man called Saddam Hussein.....
Revolution has started in the Arab Federation and several SCT nation have vowed to protect poor ickle Basra if the rebels decide to invade. The USEA has deployed a single carrier battle group to try and dissuade them from getting any funny ideas.

In other news the ASA will reach the moon in 1965 about a year before everybody else. We have also sucessfully sent a probe to Jupiter (Suck on that Germany :p )

Sukiaida

23-06-2006, 20:44

What's the ASA again? Never mind. Long argument on India and Pakistan though.

Ato-Sara

23-06-2006, 20:48

What's the ASA again? Never mind. Long argument on India and Pakistan though.

ASA= Asian Space Agency

formerly known as the Asian Space Program (ASP)

Elephantum

24-06-2006, 01:07

After a long debate in the Duma, Russia grants export licenses to several arms manufacturers, enabling military sales to Egypt. However, the newest designs (Yak-38 and Su-24, plus the occasional land warfare system) are not available for sale. Egypt joins Kuwait, Oman, and Syria in this status.

USSNA

24-06-2006, 06:18

Indonesia Info/Economy thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11225059#post11225059

The IC and OOC thread for Indonesia: Please post international stuff here, not in the economy thread. http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11226834#post11226834

Galveston Bay

25-06-2006, 08:50

ooc
going to handle Greece as an NPC until or unless the player returns

latest developments
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11231663&postcount=21

Sharina

25-06-2006, 09:42

ooc
going to handle Greece as an NPC until or unless the player returns

latest developments
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11231663&postcount=21

I thought someone wanted to start Greece last week- Independent Macdeonia / Erys Aht (whatever his new username is).

Abbassia

25-06-2006, 11:01

Well, my huge pile of schoolwork is gone, I've had all my tests and exams, I'm back!

Has anything happened? I saw something about the Siberia Crisis?

In addition the French have constructed a joint UIR-Basran-French Airbase in Basra in order to preserve the stability of the region.

The Lightning Star

25-06-2006, 17:05

OOC: Did the Armenian Genocide happen in this timeline?

Come to think of it, have ANY Genocides happened in this Timeline?

Galveston Bay

25-06-2006, 17:34

OOC: Did the Armenian Genocide happen in this timeline?

Come to think of it, have ANY Genocides happened in this Timeline?

actually the Russian Empire committed genocide against the Lithuinians and resettled that territory with Russians, who would have left after the Third Great War which is why it became part of Poland

Abbassia

25-06-2006, 17:44

But I don't think any Armenian Genocides occured, though there was that one time when the Soviets wiped out a whole rebel city in modern Iran by bombing it to oblivion

The Lightning Star

25-06-2006, 17:45

actually the Russian Empire committed genocide against the Lithuinians and resettled that territory with Russians, who would have left after the Third Great War which is why it became part of Poland

Wait, the Russians kicked out the Lithuanians and replaced them with Russians, so thats why it became part of Poland?

Also, exactly how many dead are we talking about?

Safehaven2

25-06-2006, 18:00

What few Lithuanians survived(only a couple hundred thousand) were shipped to Australia as were a few hundred thousand Armenians.

The Lightning Star

25-06-2006, 18:12

Holy shit; I just realised something;

Part of India isn't under my control. If I remember correctly, Portugal never handed Goa over to India (if it did, no one told me). So unless I'm mistaken...

TO THE BAT CAVE!

*jumps in old stationwagon and drives off at 10 miles an hour*

The Lightning Star

25-06-2006, 18:47

What few Lithuanians survived(only a couple hundred thousand) were shipped to Australia as were a few hundred thousand Armenians.

Australia!??!

Ottoman Khaif

25-06-2006, 19:05

Australia!??!
Aye, back in the early days of the rp.......way back...

New Dornalia

25-06-2006, 22:11

Aye, back in the early days of the rp.......way back...

I do remember that. Such blood...that may be E20's Armenian Genocide. And don't forget, before the Third World War, the Second Sino-Japanese War saw Mongolian massacres of Han Chinese by insurgents.

The Lightning Star

25-06-2006, 22:22

I do remember that. Such blood...that may be E20's Armenian Genocide. And don't forget, before the Third World War, the Second Sino-Japanese War saw Mongolian massacres of Han Chinese by insurgents.

But Lithuanians aren't as cool as Armenians :p

So lemme get this straight, though; The Lithuanians were nearly wiped out, the Russians replaced them in Lithuania, then after the Third Great War the Russians fled back into Russia, so the Poles moved in?

New Dornalia

25-06-2006, 22:27

But Lithuanians aren't as cool as Armenians :p

True. It took Armenians to make the MiG series of jets (Mikoyan was an Armenian).

Elephantum

26-06-2006, 00:21

Did the planned OA expansion ever happen?

Cylea

26-06-2006, 02:29

Australia!??!

I thought that was strange myself when I first joined...

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 02:55

I thought that was strange myself when I first joined...

So now Aussie land has a bunch of Lithuanians. That's...interesting :p

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 02:57

Back onto my other topic, though; can anyone tell me if I own Goa or if Portugal still does? Because I don't remember it ever being handed over to me.

Safehaven2

26-06-2006, 04:21

So now Aussie land has a bunch of Lithuanians. That's...interesting :p

And a bunch of Armenians to, along with many other ethnicites. I was kind of strapped for people when I was Australia so I encouraged lots of immigration, even if it was state sponsered(Armenians and Lithuanians). All in all, gives Australia a couple extra million.

[NS]Parthini

26-06-2006, 05:31

I have a feeling Goa would be an independant city since Portugal gouged itself.

And Ato-Sara. You can't send a probe to Jupiter... you're not Tech 8 yet, and the proper alignment doesn't happen until the 70s.

Does the SCT WANT a war with Germany? I'm willing to fight to the death to defend the Middle East from being under anyone else's rule. Have you all considered befriending us first, rather than funding rebel groups and trying to invade us?

Anyways, Saddam hasn't said anything about invading Kuwait or Basra, and Jordan deserves what it gets. And Pakistan, you don't want to get involved in the Mideast. Trust me.

Anyways, I'm back for like a day.

Galveston Bay

26-06-2006, 05:34

Back onto my other topic, though; can anyone tell me if I own Goa or if Portugal still does? Because I don't remember it ever being handed over to me.

I would think you could have easily seized it when Portugal fell apart without too much protest from anyone

Ottoman Khaif

26-06-2006, 05:35

Parthini']I have a feeling Goa would be an independant city since Portugal gouged itself.

And Ato-Sara. You can't send a probe to Jupiter... you're not Tech 8 yet, and the proper alignment doesn't happen until the 70s.

Does the SCT WANT a war with Germany? I'm willing to fight to the death to defend the Middle East from being under anyone else's rule. Have you all considered befriending us first, rather than funding rebel groups and trying to invade us?

Anyways, Saddam hasn't said anything about invading Kuwait or Basra, and Jordan deserves what it gets. And Pakistan, you don't want to get involved in the Mideast. Trust me.

Anyways, I'm back for like a day.

Good to know one of the allies of Long Dead MEU...still wants to protect it the Middle East for its interest...of couse....

Galveston Bay

26-06-2006, 05:35

Did the planned OA expansion ever happen?

US is for it, haven't heard from the British yet (OOC TG Lesser Ribenia), the FNS, Canada, or Australia (the major partners)

[NS]Parthini

26-06-2006, 05:43

Good to know one of the allies of Long Dead MEU...still wants to protect it the Middle East for its interest...of couse....

Hey man, its a symbiotic relationship :)

Artitsa

26-06-2006, 05:50

US is for it, haven't heard from the British yet (OOC TG Lesser Ribenia), the FNS, Canada, or Australia (the major partners)

Who is the membership being offered to?

Galveston Bay

26-06-2006, 06:13

Who is the membership being offered to?

the EEC, Russia, South Africa, Nigeria, Liberia and any other African nation interested as well as the Philippines (which turned it down), and Indonesia and Malaysia would be worth approaching

Artitsa

26-06-2006, 06:21

The FNS will back it then.

Lesser Ribena

26-06-2006, 13:47

Britain will back the proposed expansion of the OA. I should imagine most of ex-British Africa will join if offered. The Commonwealth, EEC and USA have been very kind to them in the past.

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 16:30

I'd like to join as México, and yes I do meet the requirements. Upon confirmation of my entry, I will post a thread.

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 17:30

Parthini']I have a feeling Goa would be an independant city since Portugal gouged itself.

And Ato-Sara. You can't send a probe to Jupiter... you're not Tech 8 yet, and the proper alignment doesn't happen until the 70s.

Does the SCT WANT a war with Germany? I'm willing to fight to the death to defend the Middle East from being under anyone else's rule. Have you all considered befriending us first, rather than funding rebel groups and trying to invade us?

Anyways, Saddam hasn't said anything about invading Kuwait or Basra, and Jordan deserves what it gets. And Pakistan, you don't want to get involved in the Mideast. Trust me.

Anyways, I'm back for like a day.

For one thing, a large portion of my population ist Muslim, so as I said before; if things go the wrong way in the Middle East, I could end up with an Islamic revolt on my hands. Secondly, I get pretty much all my oil from the Mid-East, and I'd rather not have my supply messed up. Thirdly, I'm really really really really really really really really really bored, so I want to do something interesting :p

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 17:31

TLS check your TGs.

Sharina

26-06-2006, 17:33

I'd like to join as México, and yes I do meet the requirements. Upon confirmation of my entry, I will post a thread.

Do you have any samples of your RP's?

-----------------------

I just heard from the computer repair shop. I should have my laptop ready for pickup later this afternoon so I should be able to post updated economy builds and military deployments once I'm able to access them on my laptop.

Hopefully I'll be able to post my 1963 and 1964 builds tonight and updated military stuff tonight or tomorrow.

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 17:34

TLS check your TGs.

I can back up Whittlesfield. He RP'd before as a different nation, and I can say he's E20 material (especially seeing how we don't even do a lot of RPing here :p)

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 17:35

I can refer you to another forum if you want, but I will not disappoint you. Having read that the US (in E20) has increasing control over Mexico due to oil companies, I already have a few ideas.

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 17:36

I can back up Whittlesfield. He RP'd before as a different nation, and I can say he's E20 material (especially seeing how we don't even do a lot of RPing here :p)
Thank you :)

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 17:50

Could someone give me a brief overview on E20? Is Russia Soviet? Who are the major powers?

Ato-Sara

26-06-2006, 18:12

Could someone give me a brief overview on E20? Is Russia Soviet? Who are the major powers?

Russia is not Soviet. The Soviets under Leon Trotsky were defeated in the Third world war taking place from 1939-1943 in which the main combatants were the Warsaw Pact (Soviets and Japanese) and the London Treaty Alliance (Allies).
The war had a massive loss of life and Atomic and Biological were used by both side towards the end. The LTA and it's allies were victorious and formed the UN.

Afterward there was a period or relative peace whilst the nations repaired and rebuilt from the ravages of war. It was during this time that a small alliance pact between Korea and Indochina (RL Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand) formed just before world war three, admitted more members such as China, Pakistan (Then called the FAS) and Japan.
This alliance was the Seoul Conference Treaty, It grew in size till it encompassed almost all of the far east.
In 1955 the SCT with ambitions to becoming a true superpower block started funding Sepratists in Siberia to rebel and come under SCT control, making the entire western Pacific theirs. Other factors were Siberia's bountiful resources and the the ability to cut Russia off from the major oceans (Karellia and St Petersburg were gifted to the Scandic Union when the Soviets were defeated.). Later in 1960 this was uncovered by western intelligence agencies, what followed was to be called the Siberian Crisis with the world coming the closest to nuclear oblivion that it ever has.
The SCT averted disaster when Indochina stepped down and admitted sole responsibility for the funding of sepratists in Siberia.
The Americans now frightened of the Asian dragon formed an opposing oragization called the Oceanic Alliance, this consisted of the American and her traditional, Pacific, South American and European allies.
Since then a race between the SCT and OA has been on the build ever larger armies, better technology and recruit more members. The Space Race is also going strong with the SCT's Asian Space Agency set to reach the moon in 1965, a full year before anyone else.

As of late there has been trouble in the middle east with Baa'thist sepratists and a man named Saddam Hussien, in Greece and Turkey there is agressive tension and the Scandic Union and Russia argue vehenmently over the ownership of St. Petersburg and Kareillia. This is a troubled world.

I Think that's pretty much a decent overview of recent history if you want more infomation just ask.

Safehaven2

26-06-2006, 18:12

Russia is democracy and is allied to America in this timeline. We've had three World Wars, the third one including the fairly widespread use of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons in Russia, China, India and North America. It ended with the Union(Russia and Germany plus a few European allies and the Ottoman Empire, known as the MEU then) being overrun by the LTA(Pretty much the rest of the world). Basically, the Union was torn apart and Germany and Russia became seperate nations, Poland, the Ukraine, Estonia, Finland, the CAR were all given independance from Russia. Finldnad and Estonia then joined the Scandic Union(Basically all of Scandinavia)

In the Middle East the MEU(reborn Otoman Empire) was also torn apart into various Arab nations(In this timeline the Jews never fled to Palestine, no Holocaust). Differences from real being, a Kurdistan was created, Iraq was split into Sunni(Baghdad) and Shiite(Basra) halves as was Saudi Arabia. Palestine got split between Egypt, Jordan and Syria(Which also controls Lebanon).

Fast forwarding to now, the world is split into a couple camps. Theres the OA(Oceanic Alliance) which is basically a reborn LTA, its main members include America, Britian and the commonwealth and the FNS(A South American Union) among others. Though right now they are pushing for a major expansion program to include a couple dozen more nations.

Then theres the SCT(Seol Conference Treaty) which is basically the Asians-China, Korea, Japan, the Philipines, India, exc. Them and the OA don't get along much, specifically China and America.

In the Middle East theres the Arab League mostly dominated by Egypt. The Middle East is still the hot spot it is today, although there isn't much in the way of terrorism on E20, what terrorism we've seen has actually been limited to Russia.

Then there's the CSPS, my alliance. Its a regional alliance mostly, it includes Me(the SU), Poland, the Ukraine, and the various Turkic nations. It was originally created as a defense treaty(Mostly with Russia and Germany in mind) and an economic organization.

In Europe there's the EEC, which is kind of like todays EU minus most of Eastern Europe. It is mostly an economic and space exploration thing, but they did recently add in a mutual defense claus, and they are talking about merging with the OA.

Thats a basic overview.

Ato-Sara

26-06-2006, 18:14

-Snip-

Beat yah to it :p

But that fills in some of the things I left out.

Safehaven2

26-06-2006, 18:14

Damn, beat by a few seconds. But ya, like he said, if you need more info or want to get into mroe details just ask. Come to think of it, we've done a lot just since the end of WW3.

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 18:18

A word to the wise; don't use chemical weapons. Just don't. I used them in my civil war, and everything went down the drain...

It's why I'm a stupid democracy instead of a fearsome Asian empire.

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 18:50

Which nations are socialist/communist/capitalist?

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 19:12

And can I post a thread now or should I wait for Sharina to verify my entry?

Sharina

26-06-2006, 19:52

And can I post a thread now or should I wait for Sharina to verify my entry?

I'm willing to give you a run.

Post a thread and then I will be able to make a final decision- so far you seem to be a good candiate

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 21:14

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=489440
Here you go.

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 21:29

Which nations are socialist/communist/capitalist?

Communism was pretty much wiped out in the Third Great War, but the Communist Party of Pakistan (Trotskyist) is the second-largest political party in Pakistan, with 30% of the seats, and they are part of the ruling coalition.

Ato-Sara

26-06-2006, 21:32

Which nations are socialist/communist/capitalist?

Almost all nations are capitalist. Indochina (the USEA) is the only Socialist nation left, but it is so in name only.

The conflict of intrests that is occuring in E20 currently is more East-West than Communist and Capitalist.

After the horrors caused by rabid Trotskyist exspansionism, communism is regarded with fear and disgust by most western nations and especially the Russians.

Galveston Bay

26-06-2006, 22:30

Which nations are socialist/communist/capitalist?

nearly all nations are capitalist or market socialist

The US hasn't intervened in Latin America since 1904, and that was to drive the Germans out of Venezuela. The US signed a treaty in that time period called the Pan American Treaty which stated the US would not intervene in the internal affairs of Latin American nations, and would protect them under the Monroe Doctrine.

During the 1920s and since the US has spent a huge amount of money on upgrading the economies of the Central American nations, while the FNS (all of Spanish South America plus Panama) has industralized. Thus Central America and the Caribbean lie between two of the largest industrial powers in the world (meaning practically no need for huge numbers of emigrants out of Mexico and those that do move tend to gove south where they speak the langauge and need workers just as much).

Mexican troops fought alongside US troops twice in Spain, during both the 2nd and 3rd Great Wars by the way.

I have been handling Mexican builds by the way.

last one was as follows

Mexico 1961
Population: 35 million tech level 7
Production centers: Vera Cruz 3, Monterrey 3, Mexico City 3, Yucatan 3, Tampico 2, 1 national airline
Mexico has 5 oil points, 2 natural gas points
Budget: 14 domestic (reduced spending) + 2 commercial + 7 oil and natural gas+ 2 tourism = 25 points
level 3 social spending 11.5 points,
Civil Defense: 3.5 points
4 infantry corps 2 points
Coast Guard: 2 coastal patrol units .5 points
Air Force: 1 C82 transport unit, 1 F101B all weather interceptor unit, 2 expert pilots, 2.5 points
5 points to electronics research
remainder to Alliance Space Force

Mexico is part of the Oceanic Alliance also by the way, as well as NORAD

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 22:40

Galveston Bay

26-06-2006, 22:48

I know this is really repetitive, but I need to know what happened to Goa. Some people say it became independent, others that it joined Pakistan, others it's still Portugese. If a mod can give me a definitive ruling, I'd be very grateful (although if it turns out its already mine, I'd a bit dissapointed, since I wanted to do something interesting :p)

ooc
it still officially belongs to Portugal, although only because the world failed to notice it, and apparently so did your government or anyone elses.

The Lightning Star

26-06-2006, 22:50

ooc
it still officially belongs to Portugal, although only because the world failed to notice it, and apparently so did your government or anyone elses.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 22:53

Hey, could I have a few more people posting in my new thread please, it would be nice to establish to international relations.

Whittlesfield

26-06-2006, 22:56

Sorry if this is somewhere obvious, but which countries have gone nuclear, and which ones have launched a man into space?

Ato-Sara

26-06-2006, 23:46

Sorry if this is somewhere obvious, but which countries have gone nuclear, and which ones have launched a man into space?

All the mjor alliance blocks (SCT, OA, EEC, AL and CSPS) have members with nuclear weapons.
The SCT, OA and CSPS have the most whislt the EEC and AL have fewer.

As for space, all the blocks have achieved space travel, however the most adavanced are the Asian Space Agency (ASA), Alliance Space Force (OA) and European Space Agency (ESA).

Elephantum

27-06-2006, 00:33

Russia, while capable of building nuclear weapons, has not built any since the Third Great War, and any existing (if they didn't use them all) were destroyed. The government has toyed with the idea of restarting a program occasionally, especially after the Siberian Crisis, but hasn't yet. Last time I controlled it Syria was in a similar position, although with Saddam, Nasser, and Turkey all being very active, and the latter two having nuclear weapons, that may have changed (NPC mod/GB should rule on that)

But almost every PC nation has nukes, the few that don't probably have the capability (except perhaps Bulgaria, and now yourself)

Cylea

27-06-2006, 01:00

the EEC, Russia, South Africa, Nigeria, Liberia and any other African nation interested as well as the Philippines (which turned it down), and Indonesia and Malaysia would be worth approaching

Australia would support South Africa and the EEC and has no opinon on other African nations or Russia. However, Canberra would prefer that the SCT not be antagonized by dragging Indonesia and Malaysia, a sort of neutral buffer, into one alliance bloc--even ours.

We are of course only one vote.

New Dornalia

27-06-2006, 02:12

Another two-day absence begins tomorrow. I'll be off with family in Cape Cod and Boston (Sharina's home turf).

The Lightning Star

27-06-2006, 02:25

Another two-day absence begins tomorrow. I'll be off with family in Cape Cod and Boston (Sharina's home turf).

Cape Cod = Yay!

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 03:06

Australia would support South Africa and the EEC and has no opinon on other African nations or Russia. However, Canberra would prefer that the SCT not be antagonized by dragging Indonesia and Malaysia, a sort of neutral buffer, into one alliance bloc--even ours.

We are of course only one vote.

the US wonders if the SCT is willing to allow Indonesia and Malaysia to be a neutral buffer

Kirstiriera

27-06-2006, 03:51

The Kingdom will have nuclear material, but the material would be used for peaceful purposes as well as for energy when everything is ready... and we have not intention of making nuclear weapons unless necessary. (which is most likely never going to happen...)

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 06:17

Sharina

27-06-2006, 06:22

Sharina, as a player I have no problems with you building an ICBM force.

However, I do have a problem with you posting one built in 1963 and planning to build more in 1964.

Its certain your building one in 1963 would have been noticed and very likely to have triggered a crisis. Or not. But you have denied the OA the ability to react to it.

I understand that you didn't have a computer last week and I sympathize, but this is a problem.

I didn't have my builds with me last week, so I wasn't sure how many ICBMs I was building in 1963 until I looked up my builds on the word processor tonight on my laptop. I thought I was building something like 30 - 50 more ICBM's, not 160 (keep in mind I already built 40 in 1962) in 1963. Besides, in 1963, the US built 700 ICBM's of its own in addition to Colombia having 500 I believe.

My apologies. If I did have my laptop then we could easily figure how to deal with this issue last week.

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 06:37

I didn't have my builds with me last week, so I wasn't sure how many ICBMs I was building in 1963 until I looked up my builds on the word processor tonight on my laptop. I thought I was building something like 30 - 50 more ICBM's, not 160 (keep in mind I already built 40 in 1962) in 1963. Besides, in 1963, the US built 700 ICBM's of its own in addition to Colombia having 500 I believe.

My apologies. If I did have my laptop then we could easily figure how to deal with this issue last week.

You start those silos and there is a very serious possibility the US will launch a preemptive strike. This isn't powergaming either. The US seriously considered doing so in 1965 when the Soviet Union began its missile buildup. Nixon or Goldwater would have, LBJ didn't because he thought the Russians could be talked to. Another example is that in 1969, the Soviet Union basically asked the US if it would intervene if the Soviet Union launched a preemptive strike at the Chinese when the Chinese developed nuclear weapons. Nixon said know because he knew the Chinese would be useful and because the fallout would have done horrendous damage to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan... all US allies.

The US doesn't have either of those constraints in this situation. In addition, in the US view, the SCT is expansionist and is threatening US allies (Siberian Crisis) and attempting to move on the Western Hemisphere (USAE approach to Mexico). China already has more bombers then the US and FNS, and is the US has no way of knowing if the Chinese intend to stop at 1400 ICBMs (matching the FNS and US) or intends to continue from there.

This has a huge potential for war. At this time China has 12 bomber units and 16 missile Units, while the US has 100 missile units and 10 bomber units. A US preemptive strike will probably get most of the bombers and a lot of the missiles, limiting damage to the US to severe but bearable level. You will add
8 missile units a month beginning January 1964 (tomorrow)

Kenney is a veteran of the 3rd Great War, and historically was even more decisive then his brother (JFK). He will act if necessary, especially as the political Right is going to force him to do so.

Your policy advisors would have some idea of this, and the US media is strongly hinting at it by the end of 1963.

There is also a chance the US will simply counter by building 100 ABM units next year, as it can (and so can the FNS) and try to bankrupt you the way Reagan did to the Soviet Union.

As the US has less social spending demands than China, its a viable strategy as well.

I will ponder the likelihoods tomorrow. However, its a 50/50 chance either way on this one.

However, if China builds those missiles, the certain reaction will be more US offensive missiles, more US missile submarines, and other measures.

The US is many ways is like any other empire. Its not going to just hand over hegemony or even equality without a struggle.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 06:55

China can point out to the US and OA IC'ly that it is only building these ICBM's in response to the massive US build-up of ICBM's in 1963 (700 ICBM's). I will have 1,000 ICBM's, while the combined US and FNS will have 1,200 I think.

Also, Chinese bombers cannot reach the Americas, Europe, and Africa as the Kirin-B's don't have the range to do so. Apparently the Kirin-B's are only good for bombing any invasion force or possibly D-Day type of naval + amphibious attacks aganist China. So practically 75% of the world is safe from China's Kirin-B bombers merely because they lie out of the range of the Kirin-B's. The only nations within range is the SCT, Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia, and Russia (mostly empty Siberian tundra wastelands, not the comparatively densely populated European half of Russia). Conversely, the OA has bombers that can reach China from mainland Americas, Europe, and Africa... an advantage that the OA still has over China (assuming all the ICBM's are erased from the picture for sake of argument)

China is on good terms with Australia, Malaysia, and Indonesia, so China won't be attacking these nations any time soon. China has no interest in attacking Europe unless Europe nukes China first. China honestly is not aware of any USEA overtures to Mexico (both IC'ly and OOC'ly).

Besides that, the only reason why the SCT is expansionist is to get oil resources out of fear that some nations may refuse to sell oil to the SCT, thrusting the SCT back into the Stone Age. Thats why I'm so crazy about researching alternative energy so to not need oil so much anymore, and removing the need for the SCT to expand aggressively (and thus reduce the SCT vs OA tensions a lot).

EDIT:

China has not been aggressive so far in this timeline post-WW-3. It never mobilized troops aganist Siberia, and it isn't mobilizing troops for the ME crisis. So there's little reason to fear a China that will go around nuking and invading everything in sight (IC'wise)

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 07:03

China can point out to the US and OA IC'ly that it is only building these ICBM's in response to the massive US build-up of ICBM's in 1963 (700 ICBM's). I will have 1,000 ICBM's, while the combined US and FNS will have 1,200 I think.

Also, Chinese bombers cannot reach the Americas, Europe, and Africa as the Kirin-B's don't have the range to do so. Apparently the Kirin-B's are only good for bombing any invasion force or possibly D-Day type of naval + amphibious attacks aganist China. So practically 75% of the world is safe from China's Kirin-B bombers merely because they lie out of the range of the Kirin-B's. The only nations within range is the SCT, Malaysia, Indonesia, Australia, and Russia (mostly empty Siberian tundra wastelands, not the comparatively densely populated European half of Russia).

China is on good terms with Australia, Malaysia, and Indonesia, so China won't be attacking these nations any time soon. China has no interest in attacking Europe unless Europe nukes China first. China honestly is not aware of any USEA overtures to Mexico (both IC'ly and OOC'ly).

Besides that, the only reason why the SCT is expansionist is to get oil resources out of fear that some nations may refuse to sell oil to the SCT, thrusting the SCT back into the Stone Age. Thats why I'm so crazy about researching alternative energy so to not need oil so much anymore, and removing the need for the SCT to expand aggressively (and thus reduce the SCT vs OA tensions a lot).

thats not going to sell in the US IC

ooc you may be trying to make a nuclear war unlikely, but your ally nearly triggered one in 1962 and you might just do so in 1964

Wars are caused by miscalculations in policy more often then not, rarely by outright aggression. In the US view, it has to have more nuclear weapons to offset Chinese massive numbers. China attempting to alter that equation so that it has equality in nuclear weapons and superiority in conventional weapons isn't going to sell in the US. You have more troops then the entire OA put together, not counting Pakistan, Japan, USAE, etc.

The OA may own the oceans, but Russia and the Middle East are right next door to you and the whole reason the OA exists is to prevent your expanding into them, as the Siberian Crisis showed to be a strong possibility and the current Japanese moves in Iraq are showing to be even more so. Rumors of a planned Chinese naval buildup are also circulating (as I read the posts you made in the chatroom)

You are destabilizing the situation, and its going to cause problems and severe reactions.

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 07:06

incidently, as I have explained before. Tankers allow bombers to fly one range band longer. So a bomber with a range of long with tanker support can reach North America in game terms. A bomber attack would suffer very heavy losses because the US has a very deep defense perimeter, but they could reach the US and Canada and even Mexico or the FNS.

As the SCT now has access to bombers with longer range, the US feels even more threatened, even if you don't build them if they are combined with a large number of ICBMs

Artitsa

27-06-2006, 07:10

GB, Chatzy please.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 07:12

I understand what you're trying to say.

Even though I have the massive conventional forces, I have yet to go around invading stuff. China isn't the aggressive nation in the SCT- its kinda like the "grandpa whale" nation (hope that made sense) that wants to be left alone to develop new tech, improve its living standards, etc.

I figure if I have an overwhelming military, other nations will leave China alone to develop in peace. China is pursuring this massive military buildup because of terrible lessons learned from WW-2 through WW-3, with a very weak China being totally devastated by Russia and Japan in the 30's. China refuses to be "weak" like that again.

Thats the type of thing I'm trying to go for.

Perhaps one way to solve this crisis is to have the Nuclear Arms Reduction stuff like in RL between USSR and USA?

Artitsa

27-06-2006, 07:13

One way to protect yourself could be to not have a military and sign defense agreements with the big boys. FNS would agree to that.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 07:17

One way to protect yourself could be to not have a military and sign defense agreements with the big boys. FNS would agree to that.

That didn't stop the Russians and Japanese from killing 50 million Chinese between 1935 - 1943 before the LTA could effectively come to China's aid.

Artitsa

27-06-2006, 07:20

You didn't actually have an agreement with the US at the time, nor is there any power at the moment to do such to you.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 08:03

You didn't actually have an agreement with the US at the time, nor is there any power at the moment to do such to you.

True- back then but still.

In today's E20 world, probably 15+ nations have nuclear and ICBM tech, and could potentially kill another 50 million (or even more) Chinese again. If the US or other OA nations, or the EEC or CSPS or any nation with nuclear ICBM's attacks China, it'll be the massacres of 1938-1943 all over again.

Thats why China is determined NOT to be weak or defenseless, lest other nations swarm all over China, kill millions of Chinese, or blackmail China. Even if China somehow became an OA member (which is extremely unlikely), the OA wouldn't be able to protect China if it had no military or deterrant until AFTER the enemies do their killing and damage to China.

Artitsa

27-06-2006, 08:23

BUT, if someone launches a Nuclear Attack they are still going to kill Millions of Chinese first. Whats the difference?

Sharina

27-06-2006, 10:58

BUT, if someone launches a Nuclear Attack they are still going to kill Millions of Chinese first. Whats the difference?

By making the enemy too afraid to initate a nuclear first attack.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 11:25

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11247845&postcount=74

This will be intentionally leaked to the OA nations by China.

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 12:05

Ok guys, I'll post soon. I've got a sh*tload of builds to do (the last were for 1957 :eek:) so I'll be busy with that for a while :p

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 12:11

BTW, has anything else happened recently, because I saw something about an invasion threat against the UIR? :eek:

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 15:46

Does someone have the chatzy link?

Sharina, you really need to put the chatzy link on the first page so that when people are on different computers they can get to chatzy.

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 15:49

Hmm, this is quite complicated...does anyone here have msn or icq?

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 16:05

initial US reaction to the Chinese missile buildup

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11249013&postcount=113

ooc
incidently, I made a random roll to determine what the US would do
2 - 4 Kennedy issues ultimatum and orders a war unless Chinese complies
5 - 7 Kennedy decides to compete by upping the ante next year (deploying ABMs, trying to break China economically)
8 - 10 Kennedy attempts peaceful resolution
11 General Ripper scenario (some nut launches a strike)
12 7 Days in May scenario (coup attempt and confusion leading to war)

Lesser Ribena

27-06-2006, 16:21

Lesser Ribena's Semi-Regular Intelligence Report

Middle East (I am indebted to Kordo for his work on providing info for this)

Saddam Hussein and his supporters make several moves in (ex-Saudi) Arabia. The Iraqi (Baghdad) forces are currently being held a few miles on the Arabic side of the border by strong Arab forces. Many arabs in the rural regions take the opportunity offered by the lack of government forces in the area to rise up against the government and support the Iraqi invasion, many of them see the new brand of Arab Socialism as a means to better themselves from the existance they currently have. The capital, Riyadh, is in chaos as several running battles occur between rebels and government forces, though the rebels are kept largely to the suburbs and away from governmental buildings. Communications here have been cut with the rest of the nation as telephone, electricity, roads, railways and other lines are cut. Many major airline operators have stopped using the airport due to its location near the edge of the city despite a fairly heavy presence of pro-government forces there. The government sends for help from the forces holding the line against Saddam and several brigades are promptly detached to go to their assistance.

Where Rebel forces can build their strength against the government they take control of the outlying cities, local police units powerless against numerically superior foes (and many police officers have joined the socialists). The vast majority of the rural cities are now in rebel hands or else in an anarchic state.

Once Saddam's generals notice the withdrawal of several units back to the capital they launch a concerted strike in the region of Rafa and Lawqah, towns held by government forces, whilst the rest of the army is reduced in strength and given the job of holding the border region. The concentration in strength works and the Iraqi forces push towards Buraydah which is the scene of choatic violence between rebel and pro-government forces. Much of this ceases as Saddam's army approaches with pro-government forces being cowed into submission.

The Arab Socialists land small numbers of almost fanatically dedicated troops at As Salwa near the border with Quatar to cause confusion in the Saudi high command (which is essentially cut off in Riyadh anyway). This force, being closer to Riyadh receives a lot of reinforcements from the Saudis who are keen to push the invader back into the sea. The Saudis enjoy success here wiping out the force almost to a man before realising the Iraqis do not intend to link up with this force and that their spearhead is now almost at Riyadh.

Several German diplomatic staff in Riyadh are murdered by suspected pro-government forces, though there is much ambiguity regarding the murderers. The murdered staff were of arabic descent but holding German nationality. The German embassy had been stating support for the rebels at the time and criticising the conservative government. The German people are not amused and push for more active support of the Socialists.

OOC: That is the current situation. Also anything that says Saudi above refers to the inhabitrants of RL Saudi Arabia, I couldn't remember what it got changed to in this RP.

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 16:35

Chatzy link someone?

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 16:46

Suggest a major slow down in time to give everyone a chance to react to events in Washington DC.

Events occur January 12 - 18 that are of critical importance

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 16:47

Chatzy link someone?

http://www.chatzy.com/921930878279

Kordo

27-06-2006, 17:17

Lesser Ribena's Semi-Regular Intelligence Report

Middle East (I am indebted to Kordo for his work on providing info for this)

/snip

The Arab Socialist Government (ooc: who's leader's name escapes me at the moment) along with several influential Shi’a and Sunni clerics announce that the 'official' Arab Federation government has proven itself unworthy and has fallen out of favor in Allah’s eyes by killing innocent civilians and by refusing to obey Sharia law. They call for all troops and government supporters to lay down their arms and return home. In return, they will not be punished unless they are charged by an open court for ‘crimes against humanity and Allah.’ They also call for a day of mourning across the country to mourn the dead lost in what they call a 'brutal and senseless war". Keen eyes however will notice that the Arab Socialist forces do not pause, but continue towards Riyadh.

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 17:19

Sigh what a world we live in.

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 17:24

Sigh what a world we live in.

Ain't that the truth. Makes things exciting though.

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 17:28

Not for me, not much I can do.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 18:12

Whoa, I need a lot of updating to do...

So far I have a few links that I know needs to be put up- namely the Indonesian, Mexican, Chatzy, and maybe one or two others. I kind of lost the links to Indonesia and Mexico in the flood of posts over the past couple of days.

Please re-post your links that you wish to be put up in the main post.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 18:14

[NS]Parthini

27-06-2006, 18:56

OOC: Well Camp starts today, and I won't be able to get on until next Monday afternoon, so a pause and/or slowdown would be great.

BTW, at the news of the huge Chinese Buildup mixed with the murders in the AF have caused the Reichstag to have an emergency meeting. In the meeting it is unanimously decided that action must take place in the ME, and the AF is given 48 hours to surrender the terrorists or Germany will declare war.

Recognition is immediately given to Saddam, and funding is drastically increased. The Imperial Guard also begin to proceed with covert operations in Damman.

The Reichstag also begins to debate joining the OA. All are fearful of the Chinese, however, many are worried about the potential loss of independance, and the potential for being dwarfed by the Americans.

Debate on that matter rages for several weeks (until Monday :P). The Ultimatum is made unanimously.

OOC: Prepositioned units in the area are called up and Koryan and Kordo have control of those units until I come back.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 18:59

Parthini']OOC: Well Camp starts today, and I won't be able to get on until next Monday afternoon, so a pause and/or slowdown would be great.

BTW, at the news of the huge Chinese Buildup mixed with the murders in the AF have caused the Reichstag to have an emergency meeting. In the meeting it is unanimously decided that action must take place in the ME, and the AF is given 48 hours to surrender the terrorists or Germany will declare war.

Recognition is immediately given to Saddam, and funding is drastically increased. The Imperial Guard also begin to proceed with covert operations in Damman.

The Reichstag also begins to debate joining the OA. All are fearful of the Chinese, however, many are worried about the potential loss of independance, and the potential for being dwarfed by the Americans.

Debate on that matter rages for several weeks (until Monday :P). The Ultimatum is made unanimously.

OOC: Prepositioned units in the area are called up and Koryan and Kordo have control of those units until I come back.

America is going through a coup I believe.

Sharina

27-06-2006, 19:26

China releases the following statement to the world, comprised into several points.

1. China is both alarmed and saddened to witness the events in America. We have heard reports of some kind of breakdown in government or widespread unrest. We would like to ascertain if the American people are still alive and well, and their democracy system intact.

2. China is determined to never be weak again, hence our substantial military. We have learned the lesson quite painfully in the 1930's and early 1940's at the hands of the Soviets and militarstic Japan. They ruthlessly attacked and destroyed China, killing over 50 million people. This could have been prevented if China had a strong military, but unfortunately, China had one of the world's weakest militaries in these times. We cannot afford to be weak like that ever again, lest another 50 million Chinese be killed again and China being exploited.

3. We have no plans of any aggressive or offensive military action. Our military buildup is purely defensive, intended to make sure any foreign attack on or aganist China would be suicidal, therefore deterring any war from taking place aganist China. We do not seek to conquer or subjugate Russia even though it was Russia that devastated China utterly during World War Three. China is surrounded by allies so there is no reason for China to go on the warpath.

4. China is only building the missiles in response to a similiar massive American buildup of missiles in the previous year. We believe the Americans built somewhere between 500 to 1000 nuclear missiles, and this greatly concerns us. Why is America building such massive quanities of nuclear weapons? Is it planning to go to war with China? Or are the weapons being built for another purpose? These actions by America has forced us to build our own weapons to match theirs, lest the Americans decide to vaporize the entirety of China with no consquence. The Chinese missiles are not intended as aggressive or offensive weapons, but as defensive and counter-weapons.

Should any nation go to war aganist China, the Chinese will not use nuclear weapons unless China is attacked by nuclear weapons. If the enemy remains conventional, so will China.

5. China is not in the habit of going around the world and invading, conquering, and subjugating nations left and right. We have not been aggressive at all in the past twenty years since the Third World War. We did not mobilize for war during the Siberian Crisis and Middle Eastern Crisis despite the fact that most of the world was mobilizing for one. We Chinese know all too well the price of war, as we suffered the most out of any nation during the Third World War with the highest death and casaulty count.

We believe that if we adopt "Peace through Strength", China will be left alone to develop and prosper in peace. No one will dare to attack or invade China, and China only wishes to be left alone. If the US and the Oceanic Alliance leaves China alone, then China will leave the US and the Oceanic Alliance alone. Was it not the Americans who coined the phrase... "You stay in your backyard and I will stay in mine"? What of the American Monroe Doctrine stating "America for Americans only"? China has no ambitions nor interests on enroaching on any OA lands, as China is only interested in improving the life quality, prosperity and freedoms in Asia without fear of being invaded or being trampled upon by other nations.

Galveston Bay

27-06-2006, 19:32

for now, just game out what is going on January 1 - 18, so that everyone is caught up to what is going on.

We are in a serious nuclear crisis now.

Current events in the US
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11250425&postcount=123

As this is happening, the crisis in the Middle East is heating up, and the price of oil skyrockets. The sudden problems in the US also scare the hell out of investors, causing a nasty shock in the financial markets. The US closes the NY Stock Exchange after stocks go into free fall. An emergency bank holiday is also declared.

Bottom line, the US has dominated the global economy for nearly 30 years and is now unstable. Add in the crisis in the Middle East and threat to oil supplies and we have everything we need for financial catastrophe.

Toremal

27-06-2006, 19:38

Can I join as the Grand duchy Of Luxembourg please?

Toremal

27-06-2006, 19:40

ahem...
Anybody at home...

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 19:41

Luxembourg became Burgandy, it includes Alsace and some parts of Germany, basically a buffer state between Germany and France.

Anyway, you picked an interesting time to join.

Toremal

27-06-2006, 19:56

Thanks
However, despite being just a buffer zone, Luxembourg also has one of the largest economies in the world, thanks to the bon pays/gut land - one of the most fertile regions in Europe.

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 19:59

I wouldn't say its one of the most powerful though. Is it?

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 20:01

Also very industrialized. Not one of the most powerfull, but definetly strong.

Toremal

27-06-2006, 20:06

Yes, certainly powerfull - it is in the heart of Europe, and of great strategic importance.
However, not powerful because of any strength - just because of its position and wealth - poeple always bow down to wealth.
Hint hint.

Toremal

27-06-2006, 20:12

Due to the price of oil skyrocketing, all Luxembourgish vehicles are hereby ordered to turn to electricity or solar power. Anyone like to trade some power for something?

Elephantum

27-06-2006, 20:19

A few things:

1) GB and/or Sharina need to approve you
2) Luxembourg's merits as a nation can be debated all day long, but the game's systems for economy and military don't work well with micro-states.
3) Kiang Kai-Shek is a man (unless he got special procedures in this history)

USSNA

27-06-2006, 20:40

Here is my Economy thread (please dont post here, this is a reference thread) Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11225059#post11225059)

And here is my nations main thread: linky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11241583&posted=1#post11241583)

Abbassia

27-06-2006, 21:55

The French Government is very distressed at recent events worldwide, but no official statement has been made, the French President is recalled from China with haste and sincere apology to the Chinese, in regards to Cyprus a small fleet is sent just in case (1 CVN Carrier + Light Air Wing
, 1 Light Cruiser, 2 Destroyers and the 3 Nuclear Submarines) to Albania-Kosovo to take part in demonstrations to the Balkan navy to improve their naval capabilities.

An emergency EEC meeting is expected...

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 21:57

Safehaven2

27-06-2006, 22:13

(1 , 1 Light Cruiser, 2 Destroyers and the 3 Nuclear Submarines)

OOC: Is that first 1 a typo or was something supposed to come after it?

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 22:55

The UIR leadership are shocked and very frightened. Defense Level in the UIR is raised to DEFCON 2 and all forces are mobilized. regular Air Patrols begin and the first brochures and infromation is being printed to inform the population what to do in a (nuclear) war.

ooc. God, what a time to return to E20 :eek:

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 22:56

OOC: Ain't it though?

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 22:57

OOC - What a time for me to join E20. I still don't really have a clue how this all works, but I can but learn.
Do I get extra points for nationalising my oil and gas?

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 22:59

OOC: Ain't it though?

My god! it's a hell! I'm glad that I don't live in the E20 world :p

Three world wars, numerous other wars, a very realistic threat of Nuclear Warfare for 5 years now...

I think population would decrease due to an enormous rise of Heartattacks etc. :p

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 23:00

OOC - What a time for me to join E20. I still don't really have a clue how this all works, but I can but learn.
Do I get extra points for nationalising my oil and gas?

I dunno, check the Economics thread for the nationalisation thing.

You'll get a lot of experience in RP and stuff now, so...

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 23:04

OOC: I feel for you man, I joined about ohhh 3 weeks ago. ANd I just learned how to do the whole thing, and now it's all falling apart. And yeah it's a rather fluent area. Of course I have a rather united Philippines in this world. (Which still has revolutions today.) So it depends what country you are in.

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 23:06

Anybody coming on Chatzy?

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 23:07

Can't at work.

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 23:08

Ah, its 2308 here.
Anyway, check my Mexico thread over the next few days for some special events.

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 23:12

Like... right now?

Warta Endor

27-06-2006, 23:19

The UIR Government has ordered the evacuation of Teheran, Kabul, Khandahar, the Northern Border Regions and the Western Border Regions (both depopulated for some 35 km). The Citizens have 12 hours to pack their things and prepare to leave. Police Forces will patrol the evacuated cities and towns. The Grand Ayatollah asks the population not to panic and to stay disciplined.

SIC. The Government has been moved from Teheran to Yazd.

Middle Snu

27-06-2006, 23:21

Italian stocks are frozen, and Italy declares a policy of non-involvement in any coming conflict. However, there is no mass panic, as Italy is basically neutral.

Sukiaida

27-06-2006, 23:22

As a show of confidence, the government will stay in Manila, though the Vice President's vacation on his farm, and the vacations of the representatives of the Senate and half the Congress will be extended until the crisis is over.

Despite this, the UIP declares neutrality should any conflict be created. The current precautions caused by the state of affairs in the US and in case the calmer heads who should be in control there do not.

Whittlesfield

27-06-2006, 23:54

So the PC nations without any nuclear technology are myself, Nigeria, and Bulgaria AFAIK...

Kilani

28-06-2006, 00:03

So the PC nations without any nuclear technology are myself, Nigeria, and Bulgaria AFAIK...

I'll have nukles within the year.

The Lightning Star

28-06-2006, 00:18

As news of the economic collapse reaches the Pakistani government, the Bombay Stock Exchange is ordered to close down. A sense of panic is felt all throughout Agra, and the ISI is trying to piece together exactly what is going on. The President issues orders for the military to be put at a heightened state of alert. Meanwhile, certain members of the military see this as their chance to potentially seize power, but they wait to see how the situation works itself out. The President soon declares that a National Effort to be put into affect, to counter-balance the effects of the depression.

Cylea

28-06-2006, 00:34

The UIP sends a message to the Austrlian ministers. As apart of the OA, do you have more information on the current problems in the US? We are worried that they may be prepared for something that will severly harm the world.

The events in the United States have blindsided the Australian government. We are as much in the dark as you are, and probably even more worried at what might unfold.

Cylea

28-06-2006, 00:46

News of turmoil in Washington catches the Conservative administration completely off-guard. Discussion among OA members regarding a Chinese nuclear build up had heightened tensions, but nobody expected the most stable member of the Alliance to dissolve into such chaos.

Economic Response:
Australia will follow the example of the British government in declaring bank holidays and moritoriums on gold trading. The Australian Minister of Commerce pleads for calm in the populace as the global economy begins to unravel.

Diplomatic Response:
--Australian diplomats to major SCT nations urge calm on their parts and assure those governments that Australia has no intention of aggrevating the situation and emphasizing the voice of reason.
--(SECRET) It is requested of Great Britain and the FNS that they share any intel discoveries concerning these events with their Australian allies as there are no AIA agents in Washington.
--China is pressured to back down on the missile issue, if only long enough for some version of legitmate authority to regain control in Washington.
--Diplomats in Washington put every effort into finding out what the HELL is going on and finding a legitimate voice to communicate with. (should they discover what has occured, there are sharp rebukes issued to the guilty parties)

Military Response:
--All military units are reluctantly put on DEFCON 3 alert. American airwings based in Darwin have every restraint possible put on their actions by whatever means possible. American commanders are warned that Australia will not allow a "first strike" nuclear attack from its territory under these circumstances.

Galveston Bay

28-06-2006, 04:30

Kennedy calls the Australian PM and confirms that US forces in Australasia will remain under Australisian Command. He is also forced to admit that he doesn't have control of his nuclear forces and will not for several hours.

Which means that if a strike is launched, the forces under his control will have to follow through in order to reduce damage to the US.

His final words are that if he doesn't survive and the US and China are destroyed, then the remainder of the Oceanic Alliance will have to build a better world.

Galveston Bay

28-06-2006, 04:40

The Twilight War thread 2.0
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11253686#post11253686

historians will call it that because of the general global cooling that results after the nuclear exchange

Sukiaida

28-06-2006, 04:45

OOV: Oh boy.

Sharina

28-06-2006, 07:38

I honestly don't know if I can continue playing E20. Its not the game itself, but the impossibility and extreme boredom that rebuilding China will be.

Assuming all my industrial centers (roughly 900) are damaged, I have no production. All electronics in China are fried.

Assume it costs 6 points to repair a factory. This means I will need 5,400 points to repair everything. Even if the entire world helps out, if I manage to get 540 points a year in combo of aid and domestic repair efforts... it will take 10 years to recover. Assume if the cost is 12 points to repair a factory, it will take double as long... 20 years.

So that means I won't even be able to do ANYTHING for 10 - 20 RL weeks... meaning I have nothing to RP or do or have no fun until the fall or even Thanksgiving / X-mas in RL.

Besides, I just can't sit around with my thumb up my butt waiting 20 RL weeks to get back into the action.

The problem is that I have no background in any of the other "open" nations. I have some understanding of Egypt, the Zulu Empire (where modern South Africa is), Germany, and a few other nations... but they're all "taken". I know nothing about Brazil, Congo, or other African nations, so I can't RP effectively as these nations.

So I'm honestly not sure if I have the motivation to continue in E20. If I do withdraw from E20, then I will have to quit NS because I don't do other NS RP's. E20 is the only thing holding me in NS.

---------------------

Essentially its "game over" for China and me as a player, I guess.

Thus, I was wondering who will volunteer to administer E20 if I actually retire in defeat.

Abbassia

28-06-2006, 07:49

If you want you could take France, I would like a chance at rebuilding China...

Galveston Bay

28-06-2006, 08:08

The US as a result of the war will become an NPC nation (and not available for play for the time being).

I will take over principle admin duties, and also play Ireland, the UN Secretary General and other NPC reactions.

The US itself suffered a lot of damage socially, economically and will have further problems. China, Korea, the USAE, Japan and the Philippines are facing the prospect of severe nuclear fallout over the next few days after the strike.

Essentially what happened is that the US suffered a coup as fanatics decided to end China once and for all, but at the last minute, the damage was mitigated before China and the USAE were utterly destroyed. The US launched a first strike and destroyed essentially all of the military forces of China and the USAE, including their ability to retaliate effectively. China essentially surrendered.

Not sure about the USAE reaction yet.

Although collateral damage is heavy in both countries, few cities were hit directly, and most of the population survives. However their industry is severely damaged because of EMP effects, many workers will die from radiation, much will be contiminated, and both nations would be essentially in a state of shock. A few cities were severely damaged or essentially destroyed as well.

In short the economy of East Asia is in ruins for at least the short run. This will magnify the economic shocks already inflicted. In effect, nearly one quarter of the world economy just got destroyed. Nearly 1 billion people live in or near or downwind of the warzone.

In addition, serious climatic effects that were not anticipated by anyone are going to arise. Although there will not be a nuclear winter, nevertheless, huge amounts of dust were blown into the atmosphere. This dust will circle the Northern Hemisphere for at least a couple of years, resulting in a year without a summer for 1964. Other effects can be expected but I won't tell you about those until they occur. All effects are based on scenarios generated during the actual Cold War by people a lot more expert then me.

Scientists will soon realize that cooler then normal summers are going to significantly impact rainfall. Everywhere in the Northern Hemisphere. In other words, a drought or too much rainfall at the wrong times. Unaffected or undamaged nations will have sufficient food to last this year without too much difficulty. China and the USAE on the other hand do have some serious issues in this regard. Japan, Korea and the Philippines may lose significant portions of their harvests due to contiminated fields (although they all import food anyway at this point).

In addition, radiation will continue to fall from the skies for the next few years. This will inflict damage every year, including marketedly higher death rates in the Northern Hemisphere.

After the full extent of the damage to East Asia is discovered, the world is going to be absolutely appalled. Popular opinion is going to demand nuclear disarmement now. Reaction to the US will be of outrage, horror, shock, dismay etc. Demands that the US pay reparations will be overwhelming.

However, governments are well aware that the US still has the most powerful military in the world and still has a very large nuclear strike force. Not to mention obviously dangerous.

In short, the US is about to become an international pariah. Not that it will do East Asia any good.

Abbassia

28-06-2006, 08:14

None of this would have happened if JFK was in charge, imagine that this was a hair pin away from happening in the RL Cuban Missile Crisis or at least something like it...

Galveston Bay

28-06-2006, 08:24

None of this would have happened if JFK was in charge, imagine that this was a hair pin away from happening in the RL Cuban Missile Crisis or at least something like it...

it was a lot closer then you might think

Sharina

28-06-2006, 10:19

I'm seriously considering instituting a Time Warp to maybe 1975 or something. That way, we won't have the tedious boredom of rebuilding stuff (considering the US, China, Japan, Korea, USEA, and most of the Pacific and possibly Australia all suffered, possibly even India as well.)

Consquently, the nuclear stuff will affect roughly 1/2 of the E20 players who probably will be forced to endure 10 - 20 RL weeks of doing nothing but say "Nation Ecomomy for 1966, 1967, 1968 (and so on): 100% funds invested in rebuilding"

I believe if we warped to 1975 or so, it will remove a lot of the tedious stuff, and not make players get bored and quit. By then, Asia probably will have rebuilt a substantial amount of its economy and infrastructure and the Depression probably will be coming to a close by 1975.

Warta Endor

28-06-2006, 10:46

Man, this really sucks...

Is the UIR affected some way or another? The UIR borders China...

Whittlesfield

28-06-2006, 10:54

Why weren't we given adequate time to try and prevent this from happening. Surely if the word got out about the coup, even within a day, Mexican and Canadian troops would have been hunting down Thurmond.

Sharina

28-06-2006, 13:03

The more I think about it, the more crazy this nuclear war appears to be. Looking over the past 20 years since the end of WW-3, I don't quite think this nuclear war is consistent.

1. China and the US were on good terms after WW-3. The US helped China rebuild.

2. During the late 40's, the relations with the US continues. No antagonizing of each other whatsoever.

3. 1950 through 1955, the two nations have not been antagonizing each other or doing things to each other to piss each other off. No "anti-Chinese" or "anti-US" sentiments or actions.

4. 1956, the build up of Kirin strategic bombers. The US panics and gets alarmed... but now I'm really wondering WHY the US would do that if China was an apparent friend and ally of the uS between 1941 (when China joined the LTA) and 1955. It'd be like the US going crazy if Britain, Canada, FNS, Australia, etc. built strategic bombers. The Chinese strategic bombers did not have the range to attack the US, and China clearly did not act in any aggressive manner with these bombers. China did not have ANY tanker aircraft in 1956 (they were built in 1963).

5. Relations with the US kind of soured between 1956 - 1961 because of the supposed US panic about Chinese strategic bombers when in fact, the US shouldn't be afraid of China as China had been passive and still friendly to the US between 1941 - 1955 *AND* the fact that China did not have tanker aircraft to extend its bomber ranges.

6. Siberian Crisis occurred. China *DID NOT* act aggressively or belligerent in any manner whatsoever during the Siberian Crisis, even though the US and others believed that China was responible then when it was found out that the USEA, not China was responible... the US apparently apologized to China- even unofficially- (along with the rest of the OA).

7. In 1963, China built up its ICBM forces by a bit. Not 800 ICBM's, but only 160.

8. In Jan. 1964, China was building 2 ICBM's per day. For all the US knew, China could have been producing 2 ICBM's per day for only 2 weeks or 1 month (for 40 - 50 ICBM's total). The US didn't really know China was building 800 ICBM's unless China built these ICBM's everyday for the whole year of 1964 but we only played 1 month out of 1964... If the US saw China building ICBM's at 2 per day by March or April or so, THEN the US reaction would be more plausible.

Suppose the FNS or UK or other OA allies built ICBM's at 2 per day, then stopped after 1 or 2 months... the US wouldn't go ballistic and launch a massive nuclear attack. I bet even if an individual nation of OA did build 800 ICBM's in a year, the US wouldn't go mental.

------------------------------

So my major question is why did the US consider China an enemy in the mid 50's onwards even though China has remained passive (even up to 1964) since the end of World War 3, and China did NOTHING aggressive aganist the US or the OA. Therefore, there should have been no reason for the US and the OA to start fearing and "hating" the Chinese starting in 1956 onwards.

Thus, there should have been no reason for Strom and Co. or any US / OA citizen or leader or whatever to "hate" or "fear" China.

If anything, the US and OA should be MORE afraid, "hate", etc. of India than China! India actually sprouted anti-Western stuff, and made far more anti-Western noises than China! Strom and Co. should be hating India more than China, as India would fit Strom and Co's scapegoat stuff... India is / was anti-Western and BUILDING NUKES!

Abbassia

28-06-2006, 14:18

Don't forget that the ones who reacted are the millitarist nut-jobs not the government, it was I think it was a pretty slim chance but it happened, too bad you did notfire back...

Ato-Sara

28-06-2006, 14:32

Don't forget that the ones who reacted are the millitarist nut-jobs not the government, it was I think it was a pretty slim chance but it happened, too bad you did notfire back...

Anything we fired back would have had no effect.
The USEA had 12! just 12 missiles capable of striking mainland USA (If the subs got past the US navy) we had a hundred Kirin bombers which would only have been able to reach Hawaii.
China had many more Kirin Bombers (1000 i think) but still with the same range restriction, the Chinese had manged to construct around 650 ICBMS an no sub launched.
Compare this against the American 900 or so ICBMs and huge fleet of Intercontinetal strategic bombers. We had no chance and they allowed us none.

However we have very very long memories....

Safehaven2

28-06-2006, 14:38

OOC: 12 missiles, that about 50 warheads(subtracted out 2 missiles to malfucntion) launched at U.S. military targets, no civilian targets targetted, that could cripple the U.S. military, and since he said he would only retaliate on your cities if you launched at his cities you'd be ok.

Safehaven2

28-06-2006, 14:42

snip

For the simple reason that CHina was the only threat in the world to America's status as the worlds sole superpower, and everytime someone has threatened America's status America has lashed out pre-emptivly(Union). Anyway, look at it this way, as long as you don't hit his cities China will survive as a nationt o be played with most of its population.

Ato-Sara

28-06-2006, 14:50

Ato-Sara

28-06-2006, 14:54

For the simple reason that China was the only threat in the world to America's status as the worlds sole superpower, and everytime someone has threatened America's status America has lashed out pre-emptivly(Union). Anyway, look at it this way, as long as you don't hit his cities China will survive as a nationt o be played with most of its population.

Which is true, however it should be slightly easier to rebuild if we get reperations for the damage from the US.
This was a suprise, (relatively) unprovoked attack, that happened outside the boundary of international law (They didn't declare war), and there was no response from their targets who surrendered automatically because of the overwhelming odds. (Plus he did it while we were both AFK)

Im thinking maybe 3,000 points in total for this mess. (Most of it going to china.)

Safehaven2

28-06-2006, 14:55

You never updated your missiles? The SU gave the SCT MIRV tech way back in 60 or 61.

Ato-Sara

28-06-2006, 14:55

You never updated your missiles? The SU gave the SCT MIRV tech way back in 60 or 61.
Didn't have the money or the time.
The entire nuclear force was going to be upgraded next year with the addition of new solid fueld IRBMs and a hundred Soild fueld ICBMs

Safehaven2

28-06-2006, 14:56

Which is true, however it should be slightly easier to rebuild if we get reperations for the damage from the US.
This was a suprise, (relatively) unprovoked attack, that happened outside the boundary of international law (They didn't declare war), and there was no response from their targets who surrendered automatically because of the overwhelming odds. (Plus he did it while we were both AFK)

Im thinking maybe 3,000 points in total for this mess. (Most of it going to china.)

You'll get plenty of aid.

Ato-Sara

28-06-2006, 14:58

You'll get plenty of aid.
But unfortunetly probably not enough to cover the cost of the damage.

The Lightning Star

28-06-2006, 15:05

Man, this really sucks...

Is the UIR affected some way or another? The UIR borders China...

Actually, you don't. The small strip of Afghanistan that borders China is part of Pakistan.

Sharina

28-06-2006, 15:07

For the simple reason that CHina was the only threat in the world to America's status as the worlds sole superpower, and everytime someone has threatened America's status America has lashed out pre-emptivly(Union). Anyway, look at it this way, as long as you don't hit his cities China will survive as a nationt o be played with most of its population.

The Union was aggressive, whereas China was not. The Union technically declared war first in WW-2, and the Union practically screamed anti-US stuff prior to the war, especially in the UN.

China has not.

Besides, China is technically still allied to the US as part of the LTA WW-3 stuff (even though the LTA was transformed into the UN). In addition, China did not "aggressive" towards the US nor the OA. Essentially, China was acting like "Everybody's Friend" so the US and the OA should have had NOTHING to fear from China in the first place.

It'd be like the nutjobs in the US suddenly deciding to launch nukes at FNS because the FNS is a powerhouse in South America... or attacking the UK because the UK is a powerhouse in Europe (and Africa). Or even nuke Germany because of Germany's large military and Germany has been anti-US and an ex-Pact member.

If anything, India is much more of a threat than China for many reasons.

1. India sprouted anti-western stuff for many years (10+ years)
2. India has used chemical weapons already (and willing to use them) whereas China has never done so.
3. India has a large conventional army similiar to China.
4. India is far more "loose cannon" than China.
5. India has been far more aggressive than China has ever been in the 60+ years of E20.
6. India has been expanding its military like China.
7. India is producing nukes (or have nuke tech at least, which should be far more worrisome than pacifist China with nuclear weapons)

Thus it would be far more realistic and pratical for Strom Thurmond and his conspiracy guys to attack India instead of China. Strom and Co. should have NO REASON to hate or be paranoid of China as China has essentially been pacifist / peaceful, whereas India is somewhat the opposite of China.

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That aside....

Assuming we still go ahead with China being nuked, China has NO industry whatsoever as China had NO EMP hardened stuff. The only EMP hardened stuff China had was the missile silos and thats it.

So we're looking at 10 - 20 years if the world donates 540 points total to China every year to rebuild about 900 factories (depending whether factory repair is 6 or 12 points per factory). That means I won't be able to effectively RP *ANYTHING* with China for 10 - 20 RL weeks, or until September, Oct. or Nov. in RL.

Other players may have the same problem- mainly with radiation and such disrupting their industry. Over half of the E20 players are located in Asia and Oceania... Korea, China, Japan, Russia (Siberian part), USEA, Indonesia, Philippines, Australia, India, and possibly the UIR. Whereas the other major E20 players are UK, SU, Germany, France, Egypt, South Africa, Nigeria, FNS, and US (or Ireland, depending on what GB the player does). Thats 10 Asian players to 9 "elsewhere" players.

So if the nuclear thing still remains, then a time warp is necessary to avoid the tedious and boredom of rebuilding and going like this...

1965: "I thereby place 100% of whatever my economy produces in rebuilding."
1966: "I thereby place 100% of whatever my economy produces in rebuilding."
1967: "I thereby place 100% of whatever my economy produces in rebuilding."
1968: "I thereby place 100% of whatever my economy produces in rebuilding."
1969: "I thereby place 100% of whatever my economy produces in rebuilding."

See what I mean? Thats pretty much as much RP China, Korea, USEA, etc. can afford to do- no interesting stuff because there'd be nothing exciting or tension or whatever that makes for good RP.

Safehaven2

28-06-2006, 15:12

China, can you get online?

The Lightning Star

28-06-2006, 15:42

If anything, India is much more of a threat than China for many reasons.

1. India sprouted anti-western stuff for many years (10+ years)
2. India has used chemical weapons already (and willing to use them) whereas China has never done so.
3. India has a large conventional army similiar to China.
4. India is far more "loose cannon" than China.
5. India has been far more aggressive than China has ever been in the 60+ years of E20.
6. India has been expanding its military like China.
7. India is producing nukes (or have nuke tech at least, which should be far more worrisome than pacifist China with nuclear weapons)

Thus it would be far more realistic and pratical for Strom Thurmond and his conspiracy guys to attack India instead of China. Strom and Co. should have NO REASON to hate or be paranoid of China as China has essentially been pacifist / peaceful, whereas India is somewhat the opposite of China.
------------------------------------

I agree that, at a glance, I would've been a bigger target, but I'll show you why I'm really just a lot of talk and no action.

1. We've spouted anti-AMERICAN stuff, not anti-western. Also, it's not like we're preaching that America be destroyed, we're preaching that they leave us the hell alone.
2. You're right on this point; however, we'd only use Chemical weapons if we were invaded (as would many other nations, since whatever is holding one back kinda disappears when you have an army marching towards your capital), and we have no way of transporting them to North America. Also, we destroyed our chemical weapons stockpile a few years ago.
3. We have a large conventional army, yes, but they're tech level 7, compared to your 7.5 military. Also, ours isn't as large as yours, our navy is nothing (at least you have more than 1 light ship unit), and our airforce = small and not that great. We have some generation 3 fighters, which are decent, and a bunch of small, WW2-era bombers.
4. Granted, you have a point, but every year of Pakistan getting stronger means less chance for things to go wrong. The chance of a military coup happening has shrunk (as the defeat of the recent attempt shows), and while it isn't out of the question that Pakistan could go down the wrong path, the chances of it doing so shrink every day.
5. Last person I invaded was the MEU during the great war. Since then, the only invading I did was during my own civil war.
6. Actually, I recently SHRANK my military; I halved it in size and reduce it from being all Highly Trained to being normal trained so I could afford Social Spending Level III.
7. We've been producing nukes, yes, but they're Hiroshima bombs, basically. We can only drop 'em outta big-ass planes (which we don't have), so we're left to using them as measures of last resort (i.e., using them to destroy invading armies in our own territory). It's only NOW, in light of this recent nuclear holocaust, that we're building ICBM's and nukes that fit on them.

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