NationStates Jolt Archive

It is funny. :) But I still don't know what limbo is, in the sense of religion and spirituality.

I wouldn't get too attached to limbo as a doctrine...even the Catholics are considered writing it out, from what I've heard.

The textbook version of limbo could probably be described by Catholic clergy, but again, it may not make it into the 22nd edition of "The Truth, by Religion".

I think you're all getting so caught up in trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' God that we've overlooked the fact that that is impossible to do! There is nothing I can do to show you that will 'prove' God exists, and nothing you could do that would 'prove' that He doesn't. My belief is that we are spiritual as well as physical beings, designed to be in relationships. God created us and we find true completeness and identity in HIM. Egrev, you do not believe this and you keep asking for 'ARGUMENT' but a Christian cannot give you that satisfaction because of :

1 Corinthians 1:18-31

The message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength.

Consider your own call, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are, so that no one might boast in the presence of God. He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, in order that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
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So, you see since we believe all this, and you don't we're never going to get very far. Sorry...

She is referring to Purgatory. The place between Heaven and hell. Frankly, I do not know if this actually exists or not but I do know that some denominations believe in purgatory.

If this is referring to me, I'm a male. :D

Is anybody but me becoming convinced that Corn-Dog is actually an atheist who enjoys trying to antagonize people in search of intelligent debate?


No, I can see that you're very new to our forum.

Corny is genuinely like this, he has been for a long time.

He's the "wrongest person on NS" to coin a term and a phrase.

Then your best is nothing, and you are an utter failure, fir nothing is exactly what you have done. You have given no evidence, no reason or intellectual enticement. All you have done is say "I am right because I know I am right." Well, I am right because you have not shown me to be wrong. My position is falsifiable, but you will not seek to prove it wrong. Your position is not falsifiable, yet you refuse to modify it and engage in an intelligent conversation. You are neither a philosopher nor a thinker, only a puppet with the arm of the church up your ass wiggling your lips.

No amount of evidence is going to turn to you Christ. Because you see you believe but blessed are those who do not see but yet believe.

I could point to a number of things in the Bible that speaks of Jesus and of God's. Most of them the miracles they performed but I know tha tyou will ask for modern day proof and no amount of that would work because you'll explain it all away with science.

I have shown you that God does love you and you have rejected it. What makes you think that proving to you God exists through the miracles (a couple of which I posted here) will bring you to the light?

I have been praying my friend. As for giving up, I will not do so. I love spreading the Word of God and will continue to do so despite the persecution of non-believers just like those of the early church who were persecuted but yet continued to teach the good news of Jesus.

Yes. Damn those atheists and forrin heathens, with their 'persecuting you' by NOT accepting everything you say as 'truth'...

Corny, read what I posted and then write a reply to it.

Mohammad Atta thought this exact same thing, maybe you two can share a room up there.

Mohammad Atta is not in heaven N.G.

I have shown you that God does love you and you have rejected it. What makes you think that proving to you God exists through the miracles (a couple of which I posted here) will bring you to the light?
because there's a difference between NS postings and reality?

No.

God works in mysterious ways. Give Him a chance and He will change your life for the better.

This is true, at least.

I used to be a Christian, and now I'm an Atheist.

MUCH better. :)

I wouldn't get too attached to limbo as a doctrine...even the Catholics are considered writing it out, from what I've heard.

The textbook version of limbo could probably be described by Catholic clergy, but again, it may not make it into the 22nd edition of "The Truth, by Religion".

No, no, no.

Believe anything you like, its religion, it isnt supposed to be true or make sense.

For instance, you might believe that after corny dies, jesus will put him in hell.

This would be tragic, because corny seems to believe that the Willy Bibble and Yazos Cristos are top bananas, buy hey: the lord works in mysterious ways!

She is referring to Purgatory. The place between Heaven and hell. Frankly, I do not know if this actually exists or not but I do know that some denominations believe in purgatory.Corney, would you throw Legendary Rock Stars in Purgatory?
Do you honestly believe that's a just thing to do?
Do you believe Legendary Rock Stars may come to love & trust you after spending X years being tortured?

- I'm just curious.

No, I can see that you're very new to our forum.

Corny is genuinely like this, he has been for a long time.

He's the "wrongest person on NS" to coin a term and a phrase.
Wow. That's quite an award. A little harsh though, possibly, given some of the opinions expressed on political issues around here.

I think you're all getting so caught up in trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' God that we've overlooked the fact that that is impossible to do! There is nothing I can do to show you that will 'prove' God exists, and nothing you could do that would 'prove' that He doesn't.

*lotta snip*

So, you see since we believe all this, and you don't we're never going to get very far. Sorry...

True, we won't get anywhere, and I don't think many of us suppose there's any proof, either way. Its just something to talk about, there's no enforcable vote at the end (although, in my country, there unfortunately might be at some point).

What is your view of how electron orbitals are shaped.

As I recall, they are probability curves. An electron, as far as we know, can be anywhere in the orbital at any given time. Once again, this isn't a problem. The fact that there *is* a probability curve means that there are rules underlying where the electron will be at any given moment. The fact that we cannot determine where it will be at a given time does not mean that its location at a given moment is not dependent upon underlying rules and the initial conditions.

What if sometimes measurements really give us an interval, small but continuous, and not so perfect a conclusion?

Measurements always give us a range (if we do more than one). Science never leads us to "perfect" conclusions, as we are limited by our own capabilities. That limitation, however, does not mean that, for instance, an electron doesn't have an actual position at an actual moment. It simply means that our measurement capability is limited (not the least of which by the fact that all ways we can measure electrons actually will change the conditions under which they are moving).

Well, that's an axiom you're committed to,

It is an axiom inherent in inductive logic.

Like I said, if you'd like to show a way that inductive logic can work without a deterministic system.....

I will say that many scientists I've spoken to are doing extraordinary work without basing it in determinism. Maybe they just don't understand their work as well as you do, but they might.

They are basing it in the scientific method. Otherwise, they aren't doing science. The scientific method relies on inductive logic. Inductive logic relies on a deterministic system.

As soon as you can demonstrate that inductive logic can work without such a system, I will concede your point. However, it would take a complete rewrite of everything we know about logic.

Something can be random within a range. You could have the random draw from integers one through six. You can even construct a probability curve for it. You believe probability curves are drawn from non-stochastic processes?

Show me how you randomly draw numbers from 1 to 6. It has to be true randomness, not just the illusion of randomness. Even the "random" processes in a computer are not random. They often draw from the current/voltage at a given point at a given time - which is, itself, governed by the rules which govern electricity and all of the initial conditions underlying it. We don't have the capabilties to determine exactly what they will be at any given moment, so they appear random. But, in truth, they are not.

That it cannot be done is your axiom, so using it to prove itself isn't really meaningful.

I'm not using it to prove itself. It is inherent in inductive logic. We cannot draw up a probability curve and suggest that, just because our measurements have followed that curve before, they will follow it again without inductive logic.

If you would like to demonstrate otherwise....

So, you're saying that anything that draws from bound choices is not random?

I'm saying that anything that works based on underlying rules is not truly random. If there are rules governing a process, then there is no true randomness involved.

Let's take something closer to my field that seems to involve "randomness" - mutation. We speak of random mutation all the time, but we are not suggesting that true randomness exists in mutation. We know that mutation occurs because of damage to the DNA or because of mistakes in copying. These appear random to us. However, we know that there are underlying rules. We know that the processes which cause the mutations, be it radiation, oxyidative stress, failure of the proofreading mechanisms, etc. We know that these are governed by underlying rules as well.

When it comes down to it, if we knew the exact moment in the cell cycle at which radiation would hit it at a certain angle, etc. and understood all the underlying processes, we could predict exactly what mutation would happen.


That's another axiom that I'm not on board with. I've worked with a number of mathematicians that frequently model radom processes wtih bound sets...a bound set, when continuous, contains infinite discrete points. Even a discontinous set only needs multiple outcomes, just greater than one (and bounded or not) to be able to be chose from randomly.

Once again, you are not talking about true randomness. You are talking about a process that follows certain rules, and appears random.

I see...I'm only suggesting that what we perceive about God (and how we choose our axioms) may have more to do with wanting or needing there to be a God.

May. May not. I don't think so.

I think we've discovered we disagree on a primal level, but I still believe that you would make a better neighbor than most religious people I've met.

Well, that's good at least. =) I try to be a good neighbor, even though I'm never home. =)

Mohammad Atta is not in heaven N.G.

Sure he is, it was part of god's plan.

*snip*

Thou shall not bear false witness

Mohammad Atta is not in heaven N.G.

Prove it. :)

Wow. That's quite an award. A little harsh though, possibly, given some of the opinions expressed on political issues around here.


If you have a few days where you aren't planning to do something, you can look back at corny's 17 thousand posts and tally up all the ones that are wrong.

Then do this for his closest rivals.

I'm confident that the truth of my pronouncement will be borne out.

[QUOTE=LaMondia]I think you're all getting so caught up in trying to 'prove' or 'disprove' God that we've overlooked the fact that that is impossible to do! There is nothing I can do to show you that will 'prove' God exists, and nothing you could do that would 'prove' that He doesn't. My belief is that we are spiritual as well as physical beings, designed to be in relationships. God created us and we find true completeness and identity in HIM. Egrev, you do not believe this and you keep asking for 'ARGUMENT' but a Christian cannot give you that satisfaction because of :[QUOTE]
Many Christians have tried arguing for the existence of God, from Thomas Aquinas to CS Lewis. I am not asking for PROOF. I am asking for reasoned debate which does not depend upon my predetermined belief in one side or the other to be correct. I am open to the idea of god, if there is anybody willing to provide me with a good, reasoned argument. Saying you can't provide the argument is somewhat of a copout. Scriptural quotes can be pulled out and put into context to prove just about anything. They are not reasoned argument. Give me something to work with here, please.

Corney, would you throw Legendary Rock Stars in Purgatory?
Do you honestly believe that's a just thing to do?
Do you believe Legendary Rock Stars may come to love & trust you after spending X years being tortured?

- I'm just curious.

As I said, I do not know if Purgatory is real or not so how can I say one way or the other if I do not know it exists?

Thou shall not bear false witness


I'm bearing such true witness that christians call it "witnessing" !!

Muhammad Atta being in heaven is part of god's plan, and god works in mysterious ways, so i cant imagine we'll understand why this is part of his plan.

Sure he is, it was part of god's plan.

Atta is burning in hell at the moment I am sure of it. What he did violated not only Christian principles, but those stated in the Koran.

No, I can see that you're very new to our forum.

Corny is genuinely like this, he has been for a long time.

He's the "wrongest person on NS" to coin a term and a phrase.
WOW. That's high honour. And I have a whole new respect for the level of hardheadedness around here.:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

As I said, I do not know if Purgatory is real or not so how can I say one way or the other if I do not know it exists?


Oh, dont play "what me monkey" with us, corny.

You habitually say things and make grandiose pronouncements about things about which you know nothing.

If you have a few days where you aren't planning to do something, you can look back at corny's 17 thousand posts and tally up all the ones that are wrong.

Then do this for his closest rivals.

I'm confident that the truth of my pronouncement will be borne out.

Are they wrong because they don't agree with the Majority of the posters on this board? Besides that most of the posts are opinions just as most of all the posts posted here are opinions or someone else's statements.

Atta is burning in hell at the moment I am sure of it. What he did violated not only Christian principles, but those stated in the Koran.

But, all he had to do was ask forgiveness, yes?

Atta is burning in hell at the moment I am sure of it. What he did violated not only Christian principles, but those stated in the Koran.


Well, you're probably sure of it, but what of that?

god works in mysterious ways, thats why you dont understand how this is part of his plan.

As I said, I do not know if Purgatory is real or not so how can I say one way or the other if I do not know it exists?Don't worry, I both read & understood that. I was asking how you feel about a concept like Purgatory. Again, I'm just curious & you're of course free not to answer.

I'm bearing such true witness that christians call it "witnessing" !!

Muhammad Atta being in heaven is part of god's plan, and god works in mysterious ways, so i cant imagine we'll understand why this is part of his plan.
there's all manner of religious folk who think 9/11 was punishment for our sins in america. they believe it is, strongly, you believe it is not, strongly. who's right?

Atta is burning in hell at the moment I am sure of it. What he did violated not only Christian principles, but those stated in the Koran.


Well, you're probably sure of it, but what of that? you were also sure that terry schiavo's husband murdered her. You're habitually sure about things which turn out to be factually wrong.

god works in mysterious ways, thats why you dont understand how this is part of his plan.

But, all he had to do was ask forgiveness, yes?
Only if it's possible to ask for forgiveness in advance. In which case, the whole system sorta breaks down.

Many Christians have tried arguing for the existence of God, from Thomas Aquinas to CS Lewis. I am not asking for PROOF. I am asking for reasoned debate which does not depend upon my predetermined belief in one side or the other to be correct. I am open to the idea of god, if there is anybody willing to provide me with a good, reasoned argument. Saying you can't provide the argument is somewhat of a copout. Scriptural quotes can be pulled out and put into context to prove just about anything. They are not reasoned argument. Give me something to work with here, please.

Actually you have asked us to prove that he exists. We have given you reasoned debates and we have placed our proof in this thread. We have given you a "reasoned argument" telling you the good news about Christ the Lord.

No amount of evidence is going to turn to you Christ. Because you see you believe but blessed are those who do not see but yet believe.

I could point to a number of things in the Bible that speaks of Jesus and of God's. Most of them the miracles they performed but I know tha tyou will ask for modern day proof and no amount of that would work because you'll explain it all away with science.

I have shown you that God does love you and you have rejected it. What makes you think that proving to you God exists through the miracles (a couple of which I posted here) will bring you to the light?
If something is explicable by science, is it really a miracle? And I am not a scientist (Well, I am a political scientist, but that's soft science, and very different) so my limited experience with university Chemistry (yechh) is not going to come into play here. If you have evidence of God, let's have it. Not even physical evidence. I am willing to listen to logic, if you have any.

Oh, dont play "what me monkey" with us, corny.

You habitually say things and make grandiose pronouncements about things about which you know nothing.

I never said it does or does not exist.

Actually you have asked us to prove that he exists. We have given you reasoned debates and we have placed our proof in this thread. We have given you a "reasoned argument" telling you the good news about Christ the Lord.
Your "reasoned argument" has consisted simply of the fact that you feel warm and fuzzy to be Christian. That's...:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: NOT REASON!

Don't worry, I both read & understood that. I was asking how you feel about a concept like Purgatory. Again, I'm just curious & you're of course free not to answer.

To be honest, I do not know how I feel about it. Truth be told, I never thought about it.

Yes I believe that there is a God!

No one will ever understand the plan that God has for us in this life. I sometimes think that God sucks because of the stuff that people go through in life but there is a reason for everything and its not our place in this life to question it... I just try to have as much fun in life as I can... No use in waisting my time worrying about shit like if people like me or if I'm kool or not, I just have fun, get high and do crazy shit. Jesus died for my sins and I believe that with all my heart and I am looking forward to my time in the after life...

Actually you have asked us to prove that he exists. We have given you reasoned debates and we have placed our proof in this thread. We have given you a "reasoned argument" telling you the good news about Christ the Lord.
it's not news, it's two thousand years old.

*big snip*

Well, that's good at least. =) I try to be a good neighbor, even though I'm never home. =)

I know you don't believe in any indeterminism, but I'd like to present at least the idea that it could be modeled inductively.

Suppose all the "underlying rules" didn't choose the final discrete outcome but only a continuous range made smaller by better understanding the rules, but never made zero. Suppose that even if you knew all the rules, the nature of the information itself (not the measuring of it, but the nature of the information itself) did not exist in a pervasive enough way that the final discrete outcome could be predicted. Not because we don't know the rules or have all the factors, but because the process itself is of such a character as to defy it. Quautum mechanics is pointing to such a situation.

One could inductively explore the rules that shrink the range, and come up with a set of probabilities, but even with all the rules and all the factors, you couldn't predict the precise result. The inductive process had value, in helping you shrink the range, but the final outcome was random, not just in appearance.

Its interesting...the scientist I spoke to with the most emphatic religious beliefs actually felt that a non-deterministic world was more in line with his Christianity. He felt that when physicallity was set in motion, it was purposely gifted with this character of indeterminism by God. I guess that would be God's act of faith in Creation, to let it move in ways that could surprise even Him, and whatever path it found could please him as more than just his own typically perfect work.

Only if it's possible to ask for forgiveness in advance. In which case, the whole system sorta breaks down.

But, surely, we don't know what his very last thoughts, in his very last moments were... all one has to do is ask, and you shall receive, yes?

Atta is burning in hell at the moment I am sure of it. What he did violated not only Christian principles, but those stated in the Koran.

Judge not lest ye be judged....

Egrev: "I am asking for reasoned debate which does not depend upon my predetermined belief in one side or the other to be correct. I am open to the idea of god, if there is anybody willing to provide me with a good, reasoned argument. Saying you can't provide the argument is somewhat of a copout. Scriptural quotes can be pulled out and put into context to prove just about anything. They are not reasoned argument. Give me something to work with here, please."

sorry... i can't do that. honestly, i just don't have the scholarship to do so! My faith is based on personal experience and belief, and what has been influential in my life may (and probably will) not have much of an impact upon you. I have come to believe that what I have read and been taught from the Bible is true. I have accepted the message of the Cross, and am currently trying to live that out in my life. what i said before may well be a copout, but that's the level of 'reasoned argument' you're going to get from me, i am not and hope i have not claimed to be a theologian or intellectual. my faith is a living one, not an academic one, and as such cannot be proved by cunning or reasoned argument, but expressed outwardly by actions and love. obviously on a net forum those are hard to show!

Yes I believe that there is a God!

No one will ever understand the plan that God has for us in this life. I sometimes think that God sucks because of the stuff that people go through in life but there is a reason for everything and its not our place in this life to question it... I just try to have as much fun in life as I can... No use in waisting my time worrying about shit like if people like me or if I'm kool or not, I just have fun, get high and do crazy shit. Jesus died for my sins and I believe that with all my heart and I am looking forward to my time in the after life...
somehow i doubt that atheists became such out of a worry over whether they were cool (which is spelled with a c, except in Kool-Aid). the 'stuff' that people go through in life is a bit deeper than that; i, for one, am miffed by the idea of a God that loves all God's children equally, but would not deign to give all said children an equal chance in life. Seems a bit of a dumb way to show God's grace, but since God works in mysterious ways, i suppose that's accounted for.

But, surely, we don't know what his very last thoughts, in his very last moments were... all one has to do is ask, and you shall receive, yes?
Did people die by his hand after he did? Certainly. One cannot seek post-event forgiveness for the people killed by the building you just suicide-bombed.

sorry... i can't do that. honestly, i just don't have the scholarship to do so! My faith is based on personal experience and belief, and what has been influential in my life may (and probably will) not have much of an impact upon you. I have come to believe that what I have read and been taught from the Bible is true. I have accepted the message of the Cross, and am currently trying to live that out in my life. what i said before may well be a copout, but that's the level of 'reasoned argument' you're going to get from me, i am not and hope i have not claimed to be a theologian or intellectual. my faith is a living one, not an academic one, and as such cannot be proved by cunning or reasoned argument, but expressed outwardly by actions and love. obviously on a net forum those are hard to show!

At least you're honest in the character of your belief. Corn thinks repeating his belief over and over constitutes a reasoned argument.

somehow i doubt that atheists became such out of a worry over whether they were cool (which is spelled with a c, except in Kool-Aid). the 'stuff' that people go through in life is a bit deeper than that; i, for one, am miffed by the idea of a God that loves all God's children equally, but would not deign to give all said children an equal chance in life. Seems a bit of a dumb way to show God's grace, but since God works in mysterious ways, i suppose that's accounted for.Yea, God has to love everybody... cuz he made us... He is basically our Dad. Even if he is hella pissed at us he can still love us. Even those he sends to hell he still loves but they still have to suffer the results of their actions in this life.

Did people die by his hand after he did? Certainly. One cannot seek post-event forgiveness for the people killed by the building you just suicide-bombed.
well considering there's a whole host of saints canonized for killing infidels, how do we know that God has not declared him Saint Atta? Except, of course, for the fact that it was an attack on a christian country, and God loves western civilization above all others.

Egrev: "I am asking for reasoned debate which does not depend upon my predetermined belief in one side or the other to be correct. I am open to the idea of god, if there is anybody willing to provide me with a good, reasoned argument. Saying you can't provide the argument is somewhat of a copout. Scriptural quotes can be pulled out and put into context to prove just about anything. They are not reasoned argument. Give me something to work with here, please."

sorry... i can't do that. honestly, i just don't have the scholarship to do so! My faith is based on personal experience and belief, and what has been influential in my life may (and probably will) not have much of an impact upon you. I have come to believe that what I have read and been taught from the Bible is true. I have accepted the message of the Cross, and am currently trying to live that out in my life. what i said before may well be a copout, but that's the level of 'reasoned argument' you're going to get from me, i am not and hope i have not claimed to be a theologian or intellectual. my faith is a living one, not an academic one, and as such cannot be proved by cunning or reasoned argument, but expressed outwardly by actions and love. obviously on a net forum those are hard to show!
Thank you. You are a breath of fresh air in a thread of CornDog. I accept this from you, and ask that you please do not take offence to anything I may have said or may yet say about Thumpers and Jesus -Freaks. You are neither. You are, more than anything else, the type of person who makes me sometimes wish I did believe in some sort of god.

Yea, God has to love everybody... cuz he made us... He is basically our Dad. Even if he is hella pissed at us he can still love us. Even those he sends to hell he still loves but they still have to suffer the results of their actions in this life.

God is preparing to make a human. Just before he brings it into existence, he looks forward, and sees that the human will not choose to wash itself in the blood of God's child. God thus knows that the human will eventually be sent for eternal torture.

It is the humans choice to not take the blood, but it is Gods choice whether to make the human, knowing that its eternal fate is torture (which God already knows it will choose).

In an act of Love, God prepares the torture victim...

If something is explicable by science, is it really a miracle? And I am not a scientist (Well, I am a political scientist, but that's soft science, and very different) so my limited experience with university Chemistry (yechh) is not going to come into play here. If you have evidence of God, let's have it. Not even physical evidence. I am willing to listen to logic, if you have any.

I'm a political scientist myself.

I have explained why God loves you. He wants you to be in your Kingdom. He gave His only Son to die for us so that we do not have to bear our sins for jesus died for our sins. As it says in the bible, the wages of sin is death. God does not want our spirit to die when our bodies die but to be in heaven with Him. God wants all this for us. If he did not love us, he would not have given us Jesus to bear our sins for us. He died on the cross for you Egrev. As one of my favorite Christian songs says "This blood can save the soul, heal the sick, mend the heart. This blood can give you access to the very throne of God. And it still can go the distance through the pain to where you are. This blood is for you--the blood of the Lamb."

God is kind and merciful. Bad things do happen. I have had bad things happen throughout my life including this past March. God has given me the strength I need to keep moving forward and he has blessed me in ways that I truly and honestly cannot explain here. He is willing to accept you in His loving arms and welcome you to his family. He doesn't matter what sins you have committed. When you accept Jesus, those sins are erased in His book. I know. I have done things that I am not proud of in my past but I know that when I accepted His Son Jesus as my Lord and Savior, my past deeds are erased.

Did people die by his hand after he did? Certainly. One cannot seek post-event forgiveness for the people killed by the building you just suicide-bombed.

What a curious dilemma.

See - I think, according to Christian salvation - one can ask forgiveness for any action, no matter how repellent, and be granted salvation if you are earnest.

Mohammed Atta's ACTION was 'finished' once there was no possibility of it being avoided... which means, if he asked forgiveness, in all earnest, at THAT point - he MUST be forgiven, no?

Just the same as a man could repent AFTER striking a killing blow, but before his victim dies...

Yea, God has to love everybody... cuz he made us... He is basically our Dad. Even if he is hella pissed at us he can still love us. Even those he sends to hell he still loves but they still have to suffer the results of their actions in this life.
a comment that is in no way related to my own. i in fact was referring to those children that are born with diabilities, and are born in poor countries around the world. i do not thank God for being a healthy, caucasian male, born into an upper-middle class family, in North America, i thank pure chance. and i thank chance because i see no reason why, in any way, i should deserve a better chance at life than any other person, ever. again, this is countered by the argument that all God's children will be reunited in Heaven, etc etc etc, but I don't buy it, sorry.

well considering there's a whole host of saints canonized for killing infidels, how do we know that God has not declared him Saint Atta? Except, of course, for the fact that it was an attack on a christian country, and God loves western civilization above all others.
Hey, don't look at me; I'm nothing to do with Christian ecumenical matters. Saints and dogma and all that is beyond my scope of thought or interest.

Though as far as I know, the role God has to play in declaring someone a Saint is a relatively passive one.

Dum dum dum





NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION

http://www.billmon.org/archives/spanishinquisition.jpg


CONVERT!!!!! CONVERT!!!!! CONVERT!!!!!

lol sorry I had to post this... lol

Judge not lest ye be judged....

that is indeed correct.

that is indeed correct.
correct enough for you to rescind your judgement that Atta is burning in hell?

I'm a political scientist myself.

I have explained why God loves you. He wants you to be in your Kingdom. He gave His only Son to die for us so that we do not have to bear our sins for jesus died for our sins. As it says in the bible, the wages of sin is death. God does not want our spirit to die when our bodies die but to be in heaven with Him. God wants all this for us. If he did not love us, he would not have given us Jesus to bear our sins for us. He died on the cross for you Egrev. As one of my favorite Christian songs says "This blood can save the soul, heal the sick, mend the heart. This blood can give you access to the very throne of God. And it still can go the distance through the pain to where you are. This blood is for you--the blood of the Lamb."

God is kind and merciful. Bad things do happen. I have had bad things happen throughout my life including this past March. God has given me the strength I need to keep moving forward and he has blessed me in ways that I truly and honestly cannot explain here. He is willing to accept you in His loving arms and welcome you to his family. He doesn't matter what sins you have committed. When you accept Jesus, those sins are erased in His book. I know. I have done things that I am not proud of in my past but I know that when I accepted His Son Jesus as my Lord and Savior, my past deeds are erased.
The problem, CornDog, is that this line of reasoning depends upon my belief for its success. It is a way to explain belief, not to cause belief where there is none. I see why you have your belief, I just don't see it as a reason for me to believe.

IGod is kind and merciful. Bad things do happen. I have had bad things happen throughout my life including this past March. God has given me the strength I need to keep moving forward and he has blessed me in ways that I truly and honestly cannot explain here. He is willing to accept you in His loving arms and welcome you to his family. He doesn't matter what sins you have committed. When you accept Jesus, those sins are erased in His book. I know. I have done things that I am not proud of in my past but I know that when I accepted His Son Jesus as my Lord and Savior, my past deeds are erased.

What should we do when our children don't do as we want? Kill them and torture them forever? That's so loving. Oh wait! Lets just send another kid to be killed! That's more love!

Lets let somebody else take the blame! Thats love!

In some belief systems, its not okay to let others take the blame for what you do.

In some belief systems, killing your children for their mistakes isn't really considered sane, or legal.

But God has to go by the rules, and its not like he has to take responsibility for the rules...unless he makes them...

Did people die by his hand after he did? Certainly. One cannot seek post-event forgiveness for the people killed by the building you just suicide-bombed.


Yeah, but the lord works in mysterious ways you see, so there's no reason that muhammad atta shouldnt be in heaven, as part of god's plan.

a comment that is in no way related to my own. i in fact was referring to those children that are born with diabilities, and are born in poor countries around the world. i do not thank God for being a healthy, caucasian male, born into an upper-middle class family, in North America, i thank pure chance. and i thank chance because i see no reason why, in any way, i should deserve a better chance at life than any other person, ever. again, this is countered by the argument that all God's children will be reunited in Heaven, etc etc etc, but I don't buy it, sorry.But you should thank God for the gifts he has given you and you should use those gifts to help those who are down trodden. God has allowed you to help those in poor countries and he has allowed you to spread his message. It is not Gods job to make everyone rich or have a fluffy happy life it is the choise of the individule to make their life good or bad and to help those around them. If you don't follow the Bible and do as God has asked of you all you are doing is waisting your life.

I'm a political scientist myself.




Its slapstick!

somehow i doubt that atheists became such out of a worry over whether they were cool (which is spelled with a c, except in Kool-Aid). the 'stuff' that people go through in life is a bit deeper than that; i, for one, am miffed by the idea of a God that loves all God's children equally, but would not deign to give all said children an equal chance in life. Seems a bit of a dumb way to show God's grace, but since God works in mysterious ways, i suppose that's accounted for.
...surly, "in death", no?

Yeah, but the lord works in mysterious ways you see, so there's no reason that muhammad atta shouldnt be in heaven, as part of god's plan.
OK OK guys, you're starting to sound a bit Corny here. You are right with the whole as and receive forgiveness thing, we can try and stay a little less low-brow, can't we?

Yeah, but the lord works in mysterious ways you see, so there's no reason that muhammad atta shouldnt be in heaven, as part of god's plan.
unfortunately, by that line of reasoning (though I used it myself), Hell cannot exist. I think christians are a little fuzzy on the line between self-determination and God working in mysterious ways.

The problem, CornDog, is that this line of reasoning depends upon my belief for its success. It is a way to explain belief, not to cause belief where there is none. I see why you have your belief, I just don't see it as a reason for me to believe.

I am sorry you feel that way. I will echo what LaMondia stated. I am not a theologian or an intellectual myself. All I can do is explain why God loves you and wants you.

I will like to apologize to you though if I have offended you in anyway. If I did, I did not mean too. I just want to see people accept Jesus. I'll be honest that when I set out on a goal, sometimes I'll get a tad to riled up in trying to accomplish it. I have been trying to work on that but I know I still need work.

None of us are perfect, not even christians. We all sin against God. Again, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway.

unfortunately, by that line of reasoning (though I used it myself), Hell cannot exist. I think christians are a little fuzzy on the line between self-determination and God working in mysterious ways.


No, you're completely wrong.

God created hell as part of his plan, his reasons for doing so can't be logically evaluated because he works in mysterious ways.

But you should thank God for the gifts he has given you and you should use those gifts to help those who are down trodden. God has allowed you to help those in poor countries and he has allowed you to spread his message. It is not Gods job to make everyone rich or have a fluffy happy life it is the choise of the individule to make their life good or bad and to help those around them. If you don't follow the Bible and do as God has asked of you all you are doing is waisting your life.
and what of the deaf, dumb, and blind child? how is this child to know of god, when no means exist of communicating? how can this child be saved, if the child knows not of Jesus Christ?

good philosophy to be found in The Who

God is preparing to make a human. Just before he brings it into existence, he looks forward, and sees that the human will not choose to wash itself in the blood of God's child. God thus knows that the human will eventually be sent for eternal torture.

It is the humans choice to not take the blood, but it is Gods choice whether to make the human, knowing that its eternal fate is torture (which God already knows it will choose).

In an act of Love, God prepares the torture victim...Not true. God has given us the choice wether to do the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing... It depends what you do. No matter what you chose God still loves you but you have to suffer the consequenses. Just as if you disobey your earthly parents. You get a punishment.

If you don't follow the Bible and do as God has asked of you all you are doing is waisting your life.

So, somebody lives with authentic and genuine love and compassion because of buddhism, their life is wasted.

If somebody lives with abiding and vigorous decency just because they want to, believing they'll get no reward but doing it anyway, their life is wasted?

But if I do what I'm told by a book so I don't get tortured, that's a life well lived!

and what of the deaf, dumb, and blind child? how is this child to know of god, when no means exist of communicating? how can this child be saved, if the child knows not of Jesus Christ?

good philosophy to be found in The Who

Sign Language! They can still learn sign language. There is more than one way to be saved in a situation like that.

No, you're completely wrong.

God created hell as part of his plan, his reasons for doing so can't be logically evaluated because he works in mysterious ways.
but God cannot punish an individual for fulfilling some part of God's plan. Hell can only exist if the individual, through self-determination, is an exception to God's plan. And by definition, an exception to God's plan demonstrates fallibility. Thus Atta may be burning in Hell.

Not true. God has given us the choice wether to do the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing... It depends what you do. No matter what you chose God still loves you but you have to suffer the consequenses. Just as if you disobey your earthly parents. You get a punishment.

Read my post again. I stated several times that the choice to take the blood (the christian "right thing") is the humans. But God already knows what the human will choose. The decision to torture the human forever is Gods.

See, my parents never set me on fire for the slightest transgression. They also didn't know in advance which things I would do wrong.

On the ceiling of hell, it should say "God Loves You".

and what of the deaf, dumb, and blind child? how is this child to know of god, when no means exist of communicating? how can this child be saved, if the child knows not of Jesus Christ?

good philosophy to be found in The WhoI shoose to believe (because of the small amout of research I have done) that God makes special "stuff", for lake of a better word, for people like that. Just like God give second chances for those who have never heard of him, like some peopels in Africa who still have never been visited by missionaries.

Sign Language! They can still learn sign language. There is more than one way to be saved in a situation like that.
How can you learn sign language when you're blind?

but God cannot punish an individual for fulfilling some part of God's plan. Hell can only exist if the individual, through self-determination, is an exception to God's plan. And by definition, an exception to God's plan demonstrates fallibility. Thus Atta may be burning in Hell.


He can certainly put people in hell if he plans to.

And in some cases, he probably plans to let people pick what to do.

Not all of them though!

He works in mysterious ways, remember.

I am sorry you feel that way. I will echo what LaMondia stated. I am not a theologian or an intellectual myself. All I can do is explain why God loves you and wants you.

I will like to apologize to you though if I have offended you in anyway. If I did, I did not mean too. I just want to see people accept Jesus. I'll be honest that when I set out on a goal, sometimes I'll get a tad to riled up in trying to accomplish it. I have been trying to work on that but I know I still need work.

None of us are perfect, not even christians. We all sin against God. Again, I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway.
I don't know that you are capable of offending me, so don't worry about it. Aggravated me, yes, offended me, no. And if you want people to accept Jesus, maybe you should try and be more open and inclusive, rather than saying stuff that implies any who disagree with you are going to burn in Hell.

How can you learn sign language when you're blind?

Helen Keller did it, and she was deaf AND blind. The symbols for the letters were drawn onto the palm of her hand with a finger, I believe.

If corny wants people to accept jesus, he should become a Christian Peacemaker or take a vow of poverty.

He isnt an easy person to believe or take seriously to begin with, much less when he talks about his lukewarm christianity and does nothing.

I don't know that you are capable of offending me, so don't worry about it. Aggravated me, yes, offended me, no. And if you want people to accept Jesus, maybe you should try and be more open and inclusive, rather than saying stuff that implies any who disagree with you are going to burn in Hell.

I get caught up in the moment and words just come out.

How can you learn sign language when you're blind?

Good question.

Some kind of tactile language? Variations in pressure, like a hand squeezing morse code? Be a neat project...

So, officially, what happens to a baby that lives for 8 minutes and dies in a NICU ward? Where does it go?

Sign Language! They can still learn sign language. There is more than one way to be saved in a situation like that.
She learned to communicate because she could make associations between reality and the symbols she was taught. I challenge you to show how you could save a soul if you could not communicate with them, assuming (unlike on NS) they would allow themselves to be saved if given the option. I will admit to being biased to the assumption that you cannot, and since God created this child without capacity to hear God's Word, God has damned the child through no fault of its own.

Of course, you may be able to convince me otherwise.

Good question.

Some kind of tactile language? Variations in pressure, like a hand squeezing morse code? Be a neat project...

So, officially, what happens to a baby that lives for 8 minutes and dies in a NICU ward? Where does it go?

To Heaven. Children are innocent people and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Read my post again. I stated several times that the choice to take the blood (the christian "right thing") is the humans. But God already knows what the human will choose. The decision to torture the human forever is Gods.

See, my parents never set me on fire for the slightest transgression. They also didn't know in advance which things I would do wrong.

On the ceiling of hell, it should say "God Loves You".Right you are on some points but you have to remember that God has already told you what the punishment will be and he has let you know that he still loves you no matter what but there has to be a place for people like Hitler and those rules, no matter how unfair they seem must apply to everyone. All God asks is that you believe in him and Jesus and you can go to heaven.

I get caught up in the moment and words just come out.

I think you'll find that beliefs with a primarily emotional impetus will result in that. Happens to everybody, I imagine.

correct enough for you to rescind your judgement that Atta is burning in hell?

thank you, i thought that was implied in my post and quote- i guess not

He can certainly put people in hell if he plans to.

And in some cases, he probably plans to let people pick what to do.

Not all of them though!

He works in mysterious ways, remember.
but by allowing some exceptions to God's plan, God does not treat all God's children equally, which is my core problem with mysterious activities.

Right you are on some points but you have to remember that God has already told you what the punishment will be and he has let you know that he still loves you no matter what but there has to be a place for people like Hitler and those rules, no matter how unfair they seem must apply to everyone. All God asks is that you believe in him and Jesus and you can go to heaven.

Lets clarify...

Do you go to hell for being "like hitler", or for not sharing your religious beliefs?

I think you'll find that beliefs with a primarily emotional impetus will result in that. Happens to everybody, I imagine.

I am quite passionate about my faith. I want to spread it where ever I am at so that others may hear. I will agree with what you say here because it does happen to everyone.

To Heaven. Children are innocent people and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Well, then God bless the abortion clinics. They got far more people to heaven today than you did.

btw, I believe in God but to those of you who answer everything with Mysterious Ways that is extreamly cheap...

To Heaven. Children are innocent people and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

ummm, no, according to catholic, baptist, and methodist dogma, we are all born with original sin, hence the need for baptisim.

but by allowing some exceptions to God's plan, God does not treat all God's children equally, which is my core problem with mysterious activities.


Your problem is part of god's plan, and your misunderstanding stems from the fact that he works in mysterious ways.

I am quite passionate about my faith. I want to spread it where ever I am at so that others may hear. I will agree with what you say here because it does happen to everyone.
Faith is like Cowshit...spread it around and watch stuff grow.

ummm, no, according to catholic, baptist, and methodist dogma, we are all born with original sin, hence the need for baptisim.

Ahh but according to Jesus, they are innocent so who do you believe? Church dogma or Jesus?

I am quite passionate about my faith. I want to spread it where ever I am at so that others may hear. I will agree with what you say here because it does happen to everyone.


Not passionate enough to become a christian peacemaker or take a vow of poverty, however.

You're hard to believe or take seriously as it is, much less when you go on and on about your lukewarm religious faith and do nothing.

Right you are on some points but you have to remember that God has already told you what the punishment will be and he has let you know that he still loves you no matter what but there has to be a place for people like Hitler and those rules, no matter how unfair they seem must apply to everyone. All God asks is that you believe in him and Jesus and you can go to heaven.
the problem is that not everyone agrees on what God has already told you will be the punishment. The mormons are a wonderful example of people who believe they are the only ones that have been told be God what is the Truth. Since every other christian sect doesn't even call them christians, one can only assume that either all mormons, or everyone else, is going to burn in hell.

Well, then God bless the abortion clinics. They got far more people to heaven today than you did.
WOW! Nicely done. If aborted babies go to HEaven, why do the right wing neo-con thumpers hate the clinics and the abortion doctors so much?

Ahh but according to Jesus, they are innocent so who do you believe? Church dogma or Jesus?

Have you considered that what you believe about Jesus is just your church's dogma?

Lets clarify...

Do you go to hell for being "like hitler", or for not sharing your religious beliefs?You go to hell for rejecting Jesus and Gods gifts of forgivness but being a killer dick fuck like hitler helps you go to hell to. If Hitler was truely sorry for what he did and accepted Jesus and God into his heart before he died he would have gone to Heaven though. <--- Didn't happen but I used it for an example.

Helen Keller did it, and she was deaf AND blind. The symbols for the letters were drawn onto the palm of her hand with a finger, I believe.
So what if someone is deaf, dumb, blind and insensiate?

Your problem is part of god's plan, and your misunderstanding stems from the fact that he works in mysterious ways.
blast, you've got me there.

WOW! Nicely done. If aborted babies go to HEaven, why do the right wing neo-con thumpers hate the clinics and the abortion doctors so much?

Life is sacred.

the problem is that not everyone agrees on what God has already told you will be the punishment. The mormons are a wonderful example of people who believe they are the only ones that have been told be God what is the Truth. Since every other christian sect doesn't even call them christians, one can only assume that either all mormons, or everyone else, is going to burn in hell.

My Mormon wife tells me there isn't really a Hell in the LDS, just three levels of Heaven.

Evidently, I'm going to the lowest Kindom (terrestrial or telestial or something). But she's allowed to come down from the Celestial Kingdom and visit me, evidently.

Have you considered that what you believe about Jesus is just your church's dogma?

I'm actually methodist.

So what if someone is deaf, dumb, blind and insensitive?
yes, thus my challenge to anyone willing to take it.

You go to hell for rejecting Jesus and Gods gifts of forgivness but being a killer dick fuck like hitler helps you go to hell to. If Hitler was truely sorry for what he did and accepted Jesus and God into his heart before he died he would have gone to Heaven though. <--- Didn't happen but I used it for an example.
How can you be sure it didn't happen? Nice lack of faith. Shouldn't you have the faith to believe that God made it into der Fuehrer's heart at the last moment?

You go to hell for rejecting Jesus and Gods gifts of forgivness but being a killer dick fuck like hitler helps you go to hell to. If Hitler was truely sorry for what he did and accepted Jesus and God into his heart before he died he would have gone to Heaven though. <--- Didn't happen but I used it for an example.

And you know this for sure? :D

Life is sacred.

Unless they're border jumpers or A-rabs, right corny?

So what if someone is deaf, dumb, blind and insensitive?

Intra-glial neurotransmission? Taste-code?

John Edwards?

My Mormon wife tells me there isn't really a Hell in the LDS, just three levels of Heaven.

Evidently, I'm going to the lowest Kindom (terrestrial or telestial or something). But she's allowed to come down from the Celestial Kingdom and visit me, evidently.
well what if you believe in Hell, but she doesn't (and you end up there)? will she know where to find you?

the problem is that not everyone agrees on what God has already told you will be the punishment. The mormons are a wonderful example of people who believe they are the only ones that have been told be God what is the Truth. Since every other christian sect doesn't even call them christians, one can only assume that either all mormons, or everyone else, is going to burn in hell.I understand what your point is there but here is what I believe:

It doesn't matter what reliegious sect is and what you do as other tennents of your faith as long as you believe in God and that Jesus died for your sins so that you can go to heaven and you repent for your sins then you are saved... Nothing else matters, you could be mormon or catholic but as long as you believe those basics then you are gona go to heaven.

I'm actually methodist.

So why is methodist dogma any more valid than the other church's dogma that you dismiss?

Life is sacred.
Then how come more people have died in wars waged for God than for any other reason?

How can you be sure it didn't happen? Nice lack of faith. Shouldn't you have the faith to believe that God made it into der Fuehrer's heart at the last moment?

Crap! Beat me by a minute :(

Ahh but according to Jesus, they are innocent so who do you believe? Church dogma or Jesus?

I am a christian. I do not beleive in religious dogma since there are man made laws to which i do not beleive are the true thoughts, words, and actions that God would want us all wrapped up in. To that point, i was merely pointing out what some of the major, in fact 90% of the major christian based denominations beleive in. do you see why a lot of people, espicially those that have converted, have a major problem with religion. just trying to get you to see the other side of the argument, that's all.

Life is sacred.

Life is sacred, so don't kill babies...unless you're God, then you can kill babies to get at the Pharoah.

What a curious dilemma.

See - I think, according to Christian salvation - one can ask forgiveness for any action, no matter how repellent, and be granted salvation if you are earnest.

Mohammed Atta's ACTION was 'finished' once there was no possibility of it being avoided... which means, if he asked forgiveness, in all earnest, at THAT point - he MUST be forgiven, no?

Just the same as a man could repent AFTER striking a killing blow, but before his victim dies...
Hmm... it is curious.

So just what does someone who blows up a building full of people have to ask to be forgiven for? Is it the act of setting the explosives and pressing the buttons? Is it the intention that you had to destroy it and kill those people within it? And what about the consequences? Surely, if you are not remorseful that destroying the building caused great despair to the grandson of one of the victims then it is a smear on your divine record.

I'm not entirely sure about the whole thing, but it seems as though the scale is one of Forgiveness against Justice (an ugly word, but anyway). If in one action you are the cause of several ills, justice dictates that you must in some sense pay for each of those separate consequences. Therefore, it's not sufficient to simply feel remorse for the action but necessary to do so for every single negative result of that action in order to be eligible for this sort of "forgiveness".

Which is impossible, of course. The chain of causality is such that your actions have a greater effect than your ability to even acknowledge, never mind regret, can deal with. But especially so when you are dead before the repercussions of your actions play out.

Who knows. Maybe all that's required is forgiveness for the active role. But I think I'd feel somewhat short-changed in the halls of "Justice" if the man who killed my wife was never so much as charged on that offense.

ummm, no, according to catholic, baptist, and methodist dogma, we are all born with original sin, hence the need for baptisim.


well for catholics yes, not to sure about baptist. They reject the idea of infant baptisim, and i'm not sure about methodist dogma.

Unless they're border jumpers or A-rabs, right corny?

:rolleyes:

I have no problems with Muslims or anyone else. I'm a law abiding citizen. I do not care if your arab, hispanic, european or asian.

I understand what your point is there but here is what I believe:

It doesn't matter what reliegious sect is and what you do as other tennents of your faith as long as you believe in God and that Jesus died for your sins so that you can go to heaven and you repent for your sins then you are saved... Nothing else matters, you could be mormon or catholic but as long as you believe those basics then you are gona go to heaven.
apparently it does matter, since the Church was in the habit for a long time of burning heretics, which the Inquisition would have called the mormons. this latter being on account of their conviction that God, the Holy Ghost, and Jesus all had corporeal forms, and in fact God did have sex with Mary (i think that's how it is anyways. Curie correct me?)

And you know this for sure? :D
Stated in the Bible about the faith stuff...


Er, well I don't know about what happened right before Hitler died but I went off what has been stated so far in the History books.

I understand what your point is there but here is what I believe:

It doesn't matter what reliegious sect is and what you do as other tennents of your faith as long as you believe in God and that Jesus died for your sins so that you can go to heaven and you repent for your sins then you are saved... Nothing else matters, you could be mormon or catholic but as long as you believe those basics then you are gona go to heaven.
We're back to
BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT AS LONG AS IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAY
are we?

So why is methodist dogma any more valid than the other church's dogma that you dismiss?

If what MadamCurie says is true then I'm violating church dogma by saying that kids go to heaven when they die.

Then how come more people have died in wars waged for God than for any other reason?

I ask myself that same question.

Who knows. Maybe all that's required is forgiveness for the active role. But I think I'd feel somewhat short-changed in the halls of "Justice" if the man who killed my wife was never so much as charged on that offense.
there's also the problem that he would have to ask for forgiveness after the event, but the event killed him. so he couldn't have repented.

You go to hell for rejecting Jesus and Gods gifts of forgivness but being a killer dick fuck like hitler helps you go to hell to. If Hitler was truely sorry for what he did and accepted Jesus and God into his heart before he died he would have gone to Heaven though. <--- Didn't happen but I used it for an example.

Really? So, if a person were totally unlike Hitler, but didn't want to use blood to let somebody else take the blame for their actions, where would they go?

Learn your own religion. Hell is not a place for "people like Hitler", its a place for anybody who doesn't take the blood.

:rolleyes:

I have no problems with Muslims or anyone else. I'm a law abiding citizen. I do not care if your arab, hispanic, european or asian.
Just as long as you're Christian, right?

apparently it does matter, since the Church was in the habit for a long time of burning heretics, which the Inquisition would have called the mormons. this latter being on account of their conviction that God, the Holy Ghost, and Jesus all had corporeal forms, and in fact God did have sex with Mary (i think that's how it is anyways. Curie correct me?)
The buring of heritics and stuff only happened back then because the chruch was less worried about peoples soles back then and only wanted a way to controll people. I have done a lot of looking into this and I don't have enough time to write down all of my findings but the basics are that I don't think the Catholic chruch back then was truely the christian church of Jesus.

WOW! Nicely done. If aborted babies go to HEaven, why do the right wing neo-con thumpers hate the clinics and the abortion doctors so much?

Well, from one view it is alright that the unborn babies go to heaven, but the mother that is having the abortion is still commiting murder, i believe.

I am a christian. I do not beleive in religious dogma since there are man made laws to which i do not beleive are the true thoughts, words, and actions that God would want us all wrapped up in. To that point, i was merely pointing out what some of the major, in fact 90% of the major christian based denominations beleive in. do you see why a lot of people, espicially those that have converted, have a major problem with religion. just trying to get you to see the other side of the argument, that's all.

Yes I do. I have my own problems with denominations and what they subscribe to. You are precisely correct in what you say. That is why I go with the words of Jesus if things get contradicted.

I ask myself that same question.
And what answer do you come to?

My Mormon wife tells me there isn't really a Hell in the LDS, just three levels of Heaven.

Evidently, I'm going to the lowest Kindom (terrestrial or telestial or something). But she's allowed to come down from the Celestial Kingdom and visit me, evidently.


Oh Mormons, no offence.

If what MadamCurie says is true then I'm violating church dogma by saying that kids go to heaven when they die.

But why is it you say you believe in "Jesus, not Church Dogma", when your methodist beliefs are a church dogma?

Well, from one view it is alright that the unborn babies go to heaven, but the mother that is having the abortion is still commiting murder, i believe.
How? She's not harming the baby. What about a woman who has a miscarriage? Is that murder?

Really? So, if a person were totally unlike Hitler, but didn't want to use blood to let somebody else take the blame for their actions, where would they go?

Learn your own religion. Hell is not a place for "people like Hitler", its a place for anybody who doesn't take the blood.
hmmm, sombody didn't see the point I was trying to make but oh well...

Just as long as you're Christian, right?

Nope. I respect everyone, including athiests.

But why is it you say you believe in "Jesus, not Church Dogma", when your methodist beliefs are a church dogma?
And how do you get the words of JC except throught the Church? Who decided what to include or not include in the Bible? Certainly not JC.

How can you be sure it didn't happen? Nice lack of faith. Shouldn't you have the faith to believe that God made it into der Fuehrer's heart at the last moment?

Well, that is highly expecpted, within christianity, some chruchs would differ, but if that was the case then hilter could have went to heaven.

The buring of heritics and stuff only happened back then because the chruch was less worried about peoples soles back then and only wanted a way to controll people . I have done a lot of looking into this and I don't have enough time to write down all of my findings but the basics are that I don't think the Catholic chruch back then was truely the christian church of Jesus.

A great way to control certain kinds of people is to sell them on the idea that you're looking after their souls.

And the best way to convince them is to first convince yourself...

The buring of heritics and stuff only happened back then because the chruch was less worried about peoples soles back then and only wanted a way to controll people. I have done a lot of looking into this and I don't have enough time to write down all of my findings but the basics are that I don't think the Catholic chruch back then was truely the christian church of Jesus.
i couldn't help but point out the humour in the church worrying about people's soles.

anyways, hindsight is 20/20. it is irrelevant if you believe that the church was right or not, it was still the Church, and excepting that the Papacy ever apologizes for the actions in the middle ages and admits some kind of scheme of Satan to corrupt and warp, the Church as God's Institution on Earth was the true church.

And what answer do you come to?

That they shouldn't have used God's name to start a war.

hmmm, sombody didn't see the point I was trying to make but oh well...

I'm disputing your point. But please, for my meager benefit, restate it, and I'll address it.

Nope. I respect everyone, including athiests.
You respect them, you just believe they're going to burn in eternal damnation. Nice.

But why is it you say you believe in "Jesus, not Church Dogma", when your methodist beliefs are a church dogma?

I just belong to the Methodist Denomination. However, I go with the words of Jesus because I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

Yes I do. I have my own problems with denominations and what they subscribe to. You are precisely correct in what you say. That is why I go with the words of Jesus if things get contradicted.

ahhh, then here is another question I ask. Whihc versionof the bible do you use? King James? Concordia Self-Study? Or back to the original Hebrew, because there has been certain things that are translated from the Hebrew to German or English were lost. Meanings and such I mean.

Oh Mormons, no offence.

No problem. I keep trying to get her to convert to fundamentalist mormon doctrine so I can get more wives...

That they shouldn't have used God's name to start a war.
But they didn't just use his name, they used the teachings of Christ and the words of scripture. Are you OK with that?

No problem. I keep trying to get her to convert to fundamentalist mormon doctrine so I can get more wives...
Good Lord, man, is one not enough?

That they shouldn't have used God's name to start a war.
whose name should they have used? the intention, religiously, was to liberate God's holy land and holy relics. the political intention was a bit different, which is what you are referring to, but it was still instigated by the Church.

i couldn't help but point out the humour in the church worrying about people's soles.

anyways, hindsight is 20/20. it is irrelevant if you believe that the church was right or not, it was still the Church, and excepting that the Papacy ever apologizes for the actions in the middle ages and admits some kind of scheme of Satan to corrupt and warp, the Church as God's Institution on Earth was the true church.That was what they wanted you to believe but I think that there were groups that caried the true message under the cover of secret societies, examples but not nessicarily the specific ones who carried the message are the free masons and the knights of Templar.

I just belong to the Methodist Denomination. However, I go with the words of Jesus because I have accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

You go with a translation of a translation of an editing of a translation of a committee-governed compilation of an oral tradition of hearsay. And it shows.

ahhh, then here is another question I ask. Whihc versionof the bible do you use? King James? Concordia Self-Study? Or back to the original Hebrew, because there has been certain things that are translated from the Hebrew to German or English were lost. Meanings and such I mean.

The type of Bible I read is a student study bible.

But they didn't just use his name, they used the teachings of Christ and the words of scripture. Are you OK with that?

Nope.

You go with a translation of a translation of an editing of a translation of a committee-governed compilation of an oral tradition of hearsay. And it shows.
Score.

whose name should they have used? the intention, religiously, was to liberate God's holy land and holy relics. the political intention was a bit different, which is what you are referring to, but it was still instigated by the Church.

And the church should not have done so..

You respect them, you just believe they're going to burn in eternal damnation. Nice.That's sort of what I was getting at earlier..

Corney how do you feel about, say me, suffering severe torture for a couple of days?
What about weeks? Months? Years? Lifetimes? Eternity?

Would you subject me to such treatment?

How? She's not harming the baby. What about a woman who has a miscarriage? Is that murder?
A woman that has a miscarriage is not murder, it's what God intended to happen, it would be out of her control. if a woman decides to have a aborton because the babies life will be a inconvience for the womans life, then that would be murder

Nope.
Why not? Are you better than the people who interpreted the words in such a way as to justify war?

Good Lord, man, is one not enough?

Oh, dude, its such a sweet deal for men with the hardcore ubermorms. The man is the spiritual and moral head of the house, you get mad power, autocratically ruling over a bevy of babes.

If it wasn't for the special underwear, it'd be great...

That was what they wanted you to believe but I think that there were groups that caried the true message under the cover of secret societies, examples but not nessicarily the specific ones who carried the message are the free masons and the knights of Templar.
ah, yes the Knights Templar, founded by a veteran of the First Crusade. Clearly, he understood the true word of Christ.

A woman that has a miscarriage is not murder, it's what God intended to happen, it would be out of her control. if a woman decides to have a aborton because the babies life will be a inconvience for the womans life, then that would be murder
My wife had a miscarriage, and if there is a God, and it was his idea, I'd like to kick him in the sack.

We're back to
BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT AS LONG AS IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAY
are we?OMG, NO! IT IS STATED IN THE BIBLE AS THE WAY I SAID IT. I SIMPLY PUT IT INTO UNDERSTANDABLE MODERN ENGLISH! AND TOOK OUT ALL THE FLUFF IN BETWEEN SUCH AS THE BIBLE STORIES!

Why not? Are you better than the people who interpreted the words in such a way as to justify war?

The crusades are a complicated thing and that is one area of history I do not dig around much in, truth be told.

Now I'm off for awhile because I have a party to get to at work.

That was what they wanted you to believe but I think that there were groups that caried the true message under the cover of secret societies, examples but not nessicarily the specific ones who carried the message are the free masons and the knights of Templar.

Opens May 19th, everywhere.

Oh, dude, its such a sweet deal for men with the hardcore ubermorms. The man is the spiritual and moral head of the house, you get mad power, autocratically ruling over a bevy of babes.

If it wasn't for the special underwear, it'd be great...
Do I wanna know about the underwear? Bevy of babes sounds alright, though.

Opens May 19th, everywhere.
i bet halo is actually tom hanks.

The crusades are a complicated thing and that is one area of history I do not dig around much in, truth be told.

Now I'm off for awhile because I have a party to get to at work.
Sounds like you know where this is going and you know you're up against a wall here and you have to leave before you have to question yourself too severely. Enjoy your party.

I personally think there is a God. However, I think he/she/it its a real asshole sometimes. Theres really no other way of putting it. People can do all their religious mumbo jumbo and philosophical anologies and such all they want. It always ends up with God being an asshole. If God sends me to hell when I die for doing what I believe, and trying to be a good person by my own standards, I'll just come kick his ass and make my own heaven.

ah, yes the Knights Templar, founded by a veteran of the First Crusade. Clearly, he understood the true word of Christ.
OK I clearly stated that those two groups were a example of secret societies and not specifically the ones I was saying carried the message. and you also defeated your own point becuase that "veteran of the First Crusade" broke away from the church because he believed what the church was doing was wrong. The Knights of Templar were from what I have read were not cruel nor did they start their own crusades, although there are those who state the opposite...

Sounds like you know where this is going and you know you're up against a wall here and you have to leave before you have to question yourself too severely. Enjoy your party.

Now, now, even Corneliu presumably has a real life.

Besides, he's been at the wall as long as I've seen his posts, and he bravely repeats what he needs to believe, at length.

Also, from everything he's posted so far, I don't think Corneliu can really critically question himself without endangering his coping mechanism. I honestly doubt his mind will allow for it.

I personally think there is a God. However, I think he/she/it its a real asshole sometimes. Theres really no other way of putting it. People can do all their religious mumbo jumbo and philosophical anologies and such all they want. It always ends up with God being an asshole. If God sends me to hell when I die for doing what I believe, and trying to be a good person by my own standards, I'll just come kick his ass and make my own heaven.That's what so odd about most of the orthodox Christians here at NSG.. They seem to find their deity's behaviour utterly despicable, yet are unable to admit it.

It boggles the mind, don't it?

My wife had a miscarriage, and if there is a God, and it was his idea, I'd like to kick him in the sack.

Evidently, the big upside to being God, aside from being able to walk unharmed in paradox, is that he doesn't have to take responsibility for things he intended.

Apparently, once you're powerful enough, you have all knowledge, all power, and no culpability.

Now, now, even Corneliu presumably has a real life.

Besides, he's been at the wall as long as I've seen his posts, and he bravely repeats what he needs to believe, at length.

Also, from everything he's posted so far, I don't think Corneliu can really critically question himself without endangering his coping mechanism. I honestly doubt his mind will allow for it.
How can someone who appears, by his use of language at least, to be reasonably intelligent be so unopen to self-examination, so unable to see the faults with his line of argument? I do, however, apologize to CornDog for that parting shot.

There int no god up there kids, he only exists for the easily-convinced.

So, explain again how being "like Hitler" "helps" you go to Hell?

To Heaven. Children are innocent people and are welcomed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Not scriptural.

Evidently, the big upside to being God, aside from being able to walk unharmed in paradox, is that he doesn't have to take responsibility for things he intended.

Apparently, once you're powerful enough, you have all knowledge, all power, and no culpability.Hey if you think that God sucks so bad at ruling heaven and earth then lets have the U.S.A. invade heaven and set up a democrasy... We might even get some more oil out of the deal... :rolleyes:

Evidently, the big upside to being God, aside from being able to walk unharmed in paradox, is that he doesn't have to take responsibility for things he intended.

Apparently, once you're powerful enough, you have all knowledge, all power, and no culpability.
Walk unharmed in paradox.....I like that a lot.

Hey if you think that God sucks so bad at ruling heaven and earth then lets have the U.S.A. invade heaven and set up a democrasy... We might even get some more oil out of the deal... :rolleyes:
That's brilliant....set up a civil war in Heaven. Brilliant.

How can someone who appears, by his use of language at least, to be reasonably intelligent be so unopen to self-examination, so unable to see the faults with his line of argument? I do, however, apologize to CornDog for that parting shot.

I'm certainly open to having the flaws in my arguments presented. I have often amended or reversed my statements when such a flaw is presented.

As to Corn, I honestly think its about need. Whether its true or not, Religion is a time-tested, revised, refined, and globally reinforced crutch. He won't consider anything that requires him to put the crutch down so long as he needs it.

Sorry I judged your parting shot...I've made a few, so I shouldn't be pointing the finger.

So, explain again how being "like Hitler" "helps" you go to Hell?
Thou shalt not kill. One of the 10 commandments. You break those God gets a little pissed don't you think? That in combinatinon with not excepting God into your heart sends you down there for sure.

That's brilliant....set up a civil war in Heaven. Brilliant.Thank you! I will send you my autograph if you want... lol

OK I clearly stated that those two groups were a example of secret societies and not specifically the ones I was saying carried the message. and you also defeated your own point becuase that "veteran of the First Crusade" broke away from the church because he believed what the church was doing was wrong. The Knights of Templar were from what I have read were not cruel nor did they start their own crusades, although there are those who state the opposite...
didn't break away from the Church at all. it answered to the Pope. and the only reason they in particular are considered secretive is that a) the most of them were accountants, and who knows what lurks in the minds of accountants, and b) they spent a long time in the Holy Land, and myths seem to pop up faster than you can say "let's found a new religion" in them there parts.

Hey if you think that God sucks so bad at ruling heaven and earth then lets have the U.S.A. invade heaven and set up a democrasy... We might even get some more oil out of the deal... :rolleyes:

I wasn't judging God's administrative talents, because I don't believe he exists. I was pointing out the double-standard embedded in believing that God intended this or that, willed this or that, master planned this or that, foresaw this or that, but doesn't have to take responsibility for everything.

I don't blame God for bad things, because I don't think it exists. But when people say "its gods will", they should understand that it is therefore squarely his responsibility.

That's brilliant....set up a civil war in Heaven. Brilliant.
that's like Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. a good read, that.

didn't break away from the Church at all. it answered to the Pope. and the only reason they in particular are considered secretive is that a) the most of them were accountants, and who knows what lurks in the minds of accountants, and b) they spent a long time in the Holy Land, and myths seem to pop up faster than you can say "let's found a new religion" in them there parts.
lol, I liked your last sentence that was funny but yea... I get what you are saying but the eventually broke away from the church and they jacked a bunch of shit from the church too... Thats what I am getting at.

I'm certainly open to having the flaws in my arguments presented. I have often amended or reversed my statements when such a flaw is presented.

As to Corn, I honestly think its about need. Whether its true or not, Religion is a time-tested, revised, refined, and globally reinforced crutch. He won't consider anything that requires him to put the crutch down so long as he needs it.

Sorry I judged your parting shot...I've made a few, so I shouldn't be pointing the finger.
Being open to admit when you are wrong is one of the principal responsibilities of any person who wishes to engage in philosophical debate. I've admitted it on the rare occasions when I've been wrong, and I may have to admit it again someday. I'm open to that. CornDog both enthralls and repulses me. He walks in paradox, unharmed. (Sorry for stealing that)
No worries on the parting shot, it was uncalled for.

lol, I liked your last sentence that was funny but yea... I get what you are saying but the eventually broke away from the church and they jacked a bunch of shit from the church too... Thats what I am getting at.
theft? uhoh...

and that's the extent of my knowledge on the templars, so maybe.

Thou shalt not kill. One of the 10 commandments. You break those God gets a little pissed don't you think? That in combinatinon with not excepting God into your heart sends you down there for sure.

In combination?

Do you understand that in your religion, EVERYBODY has broken those rules, so it applies unilaterally? So, by your reasoning, in that regard, everybody is like Hilter.

Therefore, the comparison you invoked was meaningless.

And just so you know, I love how God gets "pissed" for us breaking rules he knew we wouldn't follow.

I love the maker who makes billions of defects in a row, and blames the product...

I wasn't judging God's administrative talents, because I don't believe he exists. I was pointing out the double-standard embedded in believing that God intended this or that, willed this or that, master planned this or that, foresaw this or that, but doesn't have to take responsibility for everything.

I don't blame God for bad things, because I don't think it exists. But when people say "its gods will", they should understand that it is therefore squarely his responsibility.
Ok I gotcha I see what ur saying... lol, I hope you didn't take that responce I made to you as mean I was just being purely sarchastic at that point but yea... I agree with you there are extreamly thin lines as to whos fault is what and stuff like that... But who can truly say what is Gods plan and what isn't... Even if you don't believe...

CornDog both enthralls and repulses me. He walks in paradox, unharmed. (Sorry for stealing that)
.

Don't worry, its not mine. Don't remember where I saw it.

Unfortunately, Cornelius is quite harmed. Devastated, in fact.

The paradox rends his argument, tearing open the veneer of his "faith" and showing the furiously spasming heart of his need. There are some here who follow religion as culture, some as belief. Corneliu just has a crutch.

But who can truly say what is Gods plan and what isn't...
it has already been established that not being able to tell what is God's plan is part of God's plan.

but now that i think of it, isn't that a kind of double-negative? If you know that you don't know, then you do know, and it's not mysterious ways any more, it's just ways.

kindof like Bush's speech on the known knowns, and the known unknowns, and the unknown knowns, and the unknown unknowns.

Ok I gotcha I see what ur saying... lol, I hope you didn't take that responce I made to you as mean I was just being purely sarchastic at that point but yea... I agree with you there are extreamly thin lines as to whos fault is what and stuff like that... But who can truly say what is Gods plan and what isn't... Even if you don't believe...

The point is, nobody can truly say what Gods plan is, or even what "Jesus" may have truly taught.

So, when you say people have wasted their lives for not following it, you leave yourself with charred hair and no eyebrows, smelling the acrid discharge of your own contradiction.

In combination?

Do you understand that in your religion, EVERYBODY has broken those rules, so it applies unilaterally? So, by your reasoning, in that regard, everybody is like Hilter.

Therefore, the comparison you invoked was meaningless.

And just so you know, I love how God gets "pissed" for us breaking rules he knew we wouldn't follow.

I love the maker who makes billions of defects in a row, and blames the product...
:headbang: :headbang: Damn your side of the point is so easy to explain ... I don't really know how to put what I am trying to say into words.. It seems to clear to me but you have to look at it from my point of view I guess... um, yea, belief is what makes or breaks you... Gods laws are just the icing on the cake... can you understand me with that analogy?

The point is, nobody can truly say what Gods plan is, or even what "Jesus" may have truly taught.

So, when you say people have wasted their lives for not following it, you leave yourself with charred hair and no eyebrows, smelling the acrid discharge of your own contradiction.
Yes, but the bible is supposedly what we are supposed to follow sooooo better to try and live a good life by what is stated in there than just fucking around complaining about how its so damned unfair... jeeze make others lives better with what you have.

:headbang: :headbang: Damn your side of the point is so easy to explain ... I don't really know how to put what I am trying to say into words.. It seems to clear to me but you have to look at it from my point of view I guess... um, yea, belief is what makes or breaks you... Gods laws are just the icing on the cake... can you understand me with that analogy?

But in your religion, Gods laws are not "icing", they're an impossible standard that gives god a reason to torture everybody. Then, he gets to make the grand gesture of having his own child killed, an act of love, to make it all better.

There's no cake, and no icing. There's blood and death and obedience. Your "point of view" is that of a man standing at the edge of a killing field, facing outward, calling others in, not seeing what you're inviting them to...

it has already been established that not being able to tell what is God's plan is part of God's plan.

but now that i think of it, isn't that a kind of double-negative? If you know that you don't know, then you do know, and it's not mysterious ways any more, it's just ways.

kindof like Bush's speech on the known knowns, and the known unknowns, and the unknown knowns, and the unknown unknowns.lmao doesn't a double-negative make a positive... (English rule there I believe) lol

Yes, but the bible is supposedly what we are supposed to follow sooooo better to try and live a good life by what is stated in there than just fucking around complaining about how its so damned unfair... jeeze make others lives better with what you have.

Yes, supposedly, what we are to follow...

Many of the people I know leading "good lives" are able to do it without a bible. They choose, of their own deliberation, what is good and pursue it without a little book to tell them.

As to complaining, I'm simply illustrating the aburdity that your axioms necessitate. I can't complain about God, because I don't believe its real.

But if it were real, under your description, it is quite "unfair", in the most "damned" way a thing can be damned.

Why do you assume I don't work to make lives better? Is your religion the only way to do that?

But in your religion, Gods laws are not "icing", they're an impossible standard that gives god a reason to torture everybody. Then, he gets to make the grand gesture of having his own child killed, an act of love, to make it all better.
that point of view seems a bit like Hollywood to me, God setting up the hype for the Big Show... but then again, I guess the hype worked, since it was the highest grossing show in history.

But in your religion, Gods laws are not "icing", they're an impossible standard that gives god a reason to torture everybody. Then, he gets to make the grand gesture of having his own child killed, an act of love, to make it all better.

There's no cake, and no icing. There's blood and death and obedience. Your "point of view" is that of a man standing at the edge of a killing field, facing outward, calling others in, not seeing what you're inviting them to...
You are looking at the God of the old testament where he is mean and cold... But believe in the loving God of the new testament who loves us. If you believe in Jesus and that he died for your sins then you are saved. If you follow the laws that makes things better but if you don't follow those laws you are still saved as long as you are sorry for what you did... and still believe.

Thank goodness Dempubliscents made an appearance in this thread...it reminds me that religion can be expressed in a sound and reasoned way...

Otherwise, my dislike of most religion would became distaste for all religion...

that point of view seems a bit like Hollywood to me, God setting up the hype for the Big Show... but then again, I guess the hype worked, since it was the highest grossing show in history.

Heh...I think you've got something there. Its showbiz, and it does damn well, at the box office, the voting booth, and anywhere else you want to sway the masses.

Don't worry, its not mine. Don't remember where I saw it.

Unfortunately, Cornelius is quite harmed. Devastated, in fact.

The paradox rends his argument, tearing open the veneer of his "faith" and showing the furiously spasming heart of his need. There are some here who follow religion as culture, some as belief. Corneliu just has a crutch.

I have to agree on this one.

The biggest problem I have is that he wants to defend and "spread" his faith, but cannot look at it critically when logical arguements are presented to him. Even though I am christian, I felt like i wanted to bring up points to him, flaws in his arguments, because i wanted him to understand where others are coming from. understnad, not necessarily beleive, but at least see the point. it is frustrating for me to argue with him sometimes.

oh well, have to go finish grading lab reports...

You are looking at the God of the old testament where he is mean and cold... But believe in the loving God of the new testament who loves us. If you believe in Jesus and that he died for your sins then you are saved. If you follow the laws that makes things better but if you don't follow those laws you are still saved as long as you are sorry for what you did... and still believe.

Go back to your Ten Commandments (which you referenced earlier. You do know they're from the Old Testament, right?).

You are to have One God (stated in Exodus, the Old Testament). You can have no other Gods.

So, which do you want?

Does your pastor or priest or whatever know that you go around talking about two different Gods in the bible?

Yes, supposedly, what we are to follow...

Many of the people I know leading "good lives" are able to do it without a bible. They choose, of their own deliberation, what is good and pursue it without a little book to tell them.

As to complaining, I'm simply illustrating the aburdity that your axioms necessitate. I can't complain about God, because I don't believe its real.

But if it were real, under your description, it is quite "unfair", in the most "damned" way a thing can be damned.

Why do you assume I don't work to make lives better? Is your religion the only way to do that?
Going point by point of your post here just to let you know:

1. Those morals and the morals that America is based on is the Bible. (I don't know where you life but i am assuming it is in america)

2. Ok... Fine

3. Er, didn't see what you were saying here... Sorry...

4. I wasn't saying things about you specifically. I was simply making a point. I didn't mean to offend you.

I have to agree on this one.

The biggest problem I have is that he wants to defend and "spread" his faith, but cannot look at it critically when logical arguements are presented to him. Even though I am christian, I felt like i wanted to bring up points to him, flaws in his arguments, because i wanted him to understand where others are coming from. understnad, not necessarily beleive, but at least see the point. it is frustrating for me to argue with him sometimes.

oh well, have to go finish grading lab reports...

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I used to think most christians were like him, but I'm happy to see more like you, Dempubliscents, and Jocabia.

I wouldn't go to church with any of you, but I wouldn't mind you building a church of your brand of religion next to my house.

Going point by point of your post here just to let you know:

1. Those morals and the morals that America is based on is the Bible. (I don't know where you life but i am assuming it is in america)

2. Ok... Fine

3. Er, didn't see what you were saying here... Sorry...

4. I wasn't saying things about you specifically. I was simply making a point. I didn't mean to offend you.

You're missing the point. You have implied that your bible and your religion are the only way to be moral. They are not. In fact, religion is on a different axis from morality.

As to the morals of America as a nation, attach them to the bible as closely as you like. If your God is real, he might take issue.

Don't worry, its not mine. Don't remember where I saw it.

Unfortunately, Cornelius is quite harmed. Devastated, in fact.

The paradox rends his argument, tearing open the veneer of his "faith" and showing the furiously spasming heart of his need. There are some here who follow religion as culture, some as belief. Corneliu just has a crutch.
But, being unaware of that devastation, unaware of his need for the crutch, does that make him less or more damaged? The damage is all psychic, but he is blissfully unaware of any of it. Is it thus diminished, do you think?

Go back to your Ten Commandments (which you referenced earlier. You do know they're from the Old Testament, right?).

You are to have One God (stated in Exodus, the Old Testament). You can have no other Gods.

So, which do you want?

Does your pastor or priest or whatever know that you go around talking about two different Gods in the bible?No, I was talking about the way that God was presented in the two testaments of the Bible. In the old testament God seems cold, distant and only wanted his rules followed or else. In the new testament he seemed more concerned with the sole of a person and less concerned with strictness. Now all he wants is us to believe and do our best to follow the rules set down ANYWHERE in the Bible but no big deal if you break a few as long as you are like "Sorry dude... Didn't mean for it to go that way but yea... I still want you in my heart and stuff... "

But, being unaware of that devastation, unaware of his need for the crutch, does that make him less or more damaged? The damage is all psychic, but he is blissfully unaware of any of it. Is it thus diminished, do you think?

In that sense, you could be right. He's blissful in exactly that way, I suppose.

I guess if you aren't damaged in any way you aren't aware of, he's made himself invulnerable...

Heh...I think you've got something there. Its showbiz, and it does damn well, at the box office, the voting booth, and anywhere else you want to sway the masses.
Little known quote from the First Crusade:

"Are yooouuu reeadddy to RUMMMMBBLLLEEE??!!"

From the Second Crusade:
"Y'all ready for this?!"

available from Heretic Labels, $Soul.99

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I used to think most christians were like him, but I'm happy to see more like you, Dempubliscents, and Jocabia.

I wouldn't go to church with any of you, but I wouldn't mind you building a church of your brand of religion next to my house.


thanks, you know, I wouldn't go to church either, too much wrong with the "organized" religion (ie catholic, methodits, you know what i mean) but, i completely accept the compliment:-)

No, I was talking about the way that God was presented in the two testaments of the Bible. In the old testament God seems cold, distant and only wanted his rules followed or else. In the new testament he seemed more concerned with the sole of a person and less concerned with strictness. Now all he wants is us to believe and do our best to follow the rules set down ANYWHERE in the Bible but no big deal if you break a few as long as you are like "Sorry dude... Didn't mean for it to go that way but yea... I still want you in my heart and stuff... "

So, God is defined by the way he's presented, like just a character in a book?
That's a valuable line of thought, lets follow it...

Do you believe that the God in the Old Testament is a different entity than the New Testament?

Is the New One different in a better or worse way? Can a god improve? Can it get worse?

And, you say the rules set down ANYWHERE in the bible...including the part where you can sell your daughter into slavery, or kill your child for being disobedient, or kill a gay person?

In that sense, you could be right. He's blissful in exactly that way, I suppose.

I guess if you aren't damaged in any way you aren't aware of, he's made himself invulnerable...
Great. Let's hope he never reads this.

Little known quote from the First Crusade:

"Are yooouuu reeadddy to RUMMMMBBLLLEEE??!!"

From the Second Crusade:
"Y'all ready for this?!"

available from Heretic Labels, $Soul.99

You gotta love the churchs that have just run with it...bands, million-dollar stage set ups with control boths, people lined up in wheel chairs, all rented from the same medical supply...

Then you have the minimalists...just preach intensely, make the show all in their head, like Manson...

thanks, you know, I wouldn't go to church either, too much wrong with the "organized" religion (ie catholic, methodits, you know what i mean) but, i completely accept the compliment:-)
What about Luterans? My church isn't like a business all we want is our message to spread... We arn't biased either because our x-minister of music but now choir leader is a homosexual. So are a couple of other high ranking people in our church... (They aren't the molester types either if you were going to start thinking like that)

You gotta love the churchs that have just run with it...bands, million-dollar stage set ups with control boths, people lined up in wheel chairs, all rented from the same medical supply...

Then you have the minimalists...just preach intensely, make the show all in their head, like Manson...
Marilyn or Charlie?

I wouldn't go to church with any of you, but I wouldn't mind you building a church of your brand of religion next to my house.I would. You obviously have no idea how aggrivating it is to live next to a bunch of saturday & Sunday morning bell-ringing buggers.

If I'd ever worked nights when I lived next to a church, I'm fairly sure I would've set the damn place on fire.

Great. Let's hope he never reads this.

But the thing is, he has this instantaneous cognitive dissonance...anything that would put a hole in his beliefs, he just doesn't see...then he tells you your eyes are closed...

What about Luterans? My church isn't like a business all we want is our message to spread... We arn't biased either because our x-minister of music but now choir leader is a homosexual. So are a couple of other high ranking people in our church... (They aren't the molester types either if you were going to start thinking like that)
Assuming that Luterans are similar to Lutherans, they are as biased as any of the other Reformation-era Protestant sects. I have Lutheran friends who hate gays because they are an abomination, and they justify it through God.

What about Luterans? My church isn't like a business all we want is our message to spread... We arn't biased either because our x-minister of music but now choir leader is a homosexual. So are a couple of other high ranking people in our church... (They aren't the molester types either if you were going to start thinking like that)

All businesses are focused on market share, Halo.

Well, at least your group doesn't hate gays, thats good.

I would. You obviously have no idea how aggrivating it is to live next to a bunch of saturday & Sunday morning bell-ringing buggers.

If I'd ever worked nights when I lived next to a church, I'm fairly sure I would've set the damn place on fire.

Curie didn't strike me as a bell ringer, but I could be wrong.

My wife did a religious mission before we were married. Got it out of her system, I suppose.

But the thing is, he has this instantaneous cognitive dissonance...anything that would put a hole in his beliefs, he just doesn't see...then he tells you your eyes are closed...
I thought that maybe that was just today. I've never encountered him before, just found this whole NS thing yesterday...a Lutheran friend pointed me in its direction...and I was hoping he was having a bad day.

So, God is defined by the way he's presented, like just a character in a book?
That's a valuable line of thought, lets follow it...

Do you believe that the God in the Old Testament is a different entity than the New Testament?

Is the New One different in a better or worse way? Can a god improve? Can it get worse?

And, you say the rules set down ANYWHERE in the bible...including the part where you can sell your daughter into slavery, or kill your child for being disobedient, or kill a gay person?
Ok I am going to go point by point again:

1. No, he is not just a character. And that comment, about valuable line of though, was, frankly, rather insulting to me...

2. They are the same God but I think that they new testament was a more acurate representation of God because of all the advances in record keeping and writing and because it was mainly written by people who had a close intiment relationship with Gods son.

3. God doesn't get better or worse he does what he damn well wants. lol

4. Your last point made no sense because there is no parts in the Bible where you are supposed to "sell your daughter into slavery, or kill your child for being disobedient, or kill a gay person."

Assuming that Luterans are similar to Lutherans, they are as biased as any of the other Reformation-era Protestant sects. I have Lutheran friends who hate gays because they are an abomination, and they justify it through God.
Ok yea I meant Lutherans sorry I am typing really fast.... but yea, smak your Luteran friends next time they say something like that! God loves everyone and acceptes them into his house to worship and speak his message even if God dislikes what you do in you bedroom.

All businesses are focused on market share, Halo.

Well, at least your group doesn't hate gays, thats good.My church does not look at religion as a business! Everyone want to save as many people as we possibly can. And being unbiased is the best way to do it! As long as they die believing.

What about Luterans? My church isn't like a business all we want is our message to spread... We arn't biased either because our x-minister of music but now choir leader is a homosexual. So are a couple of other high ranking people in our church... (They aren't the molester types either if you were going to start thinking like that)

Depends on which type of Lutheran, ELCA, WELS, MIssouri synod? I am by upbringing, a Catholic, who went to a WELS Lutheran college and was basically told that during the Christmas season I was not allowed to come to the "worship service" (basically singing of hymns, etc. no mass, no communion) because I did not belevie in the same doctrine (ie I say the Hail Mary, was taught about transubstatiation, things that conflicted with their beleifs) and they didn't want to compromise my beleifs. No thank you. To much fellowship bull going on there. Can't even teach as an adjunct at the school because, even though i am christian, I am not lutheran.

no thanks, I will continue to pray, live a decent life (or at least the best to my ability), repent to God (not a preist) when I have done wrong, ask for help when I am lost and be the best and most loving wife, friend, person, and what not that I can be. Hopefully, at Judgement day, the good will outweigh the bad, and the bad, well I will be truly sorry for and I will be able to get into Heavan.

:eek: Y'all still here or did I scare you away? lol

Curie didn't strike me as a bell ringer, but I could be wrong.

My wife did a religious mission before we were married. Got it out of her system, I suppose.Most Christian Churches are bell ringers. I wouldn't mind it either, if it wasn't so damn inconvenient at times. I mean, I never even thought about it until I lived right next to a Church for 8 months. We (was a collective) often contemplated invading their Sunday seremons with a couple of matresses & demanding they soundproofed their bell tower.. Never got around to it though :P

Anyway, since this thread's mostly been derailed by now, mind if I ask about your wife? Good.
How does/did she feel about god? - Did she share her god's value system (as in actual, not claimed)?


I thought that maybe that was just today. I've never encountered him before, just found this whole NS thing yesterday...a Lutheran friend pointed me in its direction...and I was hoping he was having a bad day.Saying that cognitive dissonance is the hallmark of Corney, prolly isn't all wrong. Interestingly, it doesn't depend on the topic of conversation. (I'm former "The Similized world" so don't be fooled by my join date).

Curie didn't strike me as a bell ringer, but I could be wrong.

My wife did a religious mission before we were married. Got it out of her system, I suppose.

Nope, I'm not. K-8th grade catholic school, 4 and 1/2 years in a very Lutheran COllege and another 4 and 1/2 in a Jesuit university for Grad school- I have had my fill, thanks.

You mean he's blind about everything, not just God?

Depends on which type of Lutheran, ELCA, WELS, MIssouri synod? I am by upbringing, a Catholic, who went to a WELS Lutheran college and was basically told that during the Christmas season I was not allowed to come to the "worship service" (basically singing of hymns, etc. no mass, no communion) because I did not belevie in the same doctrine (ie I say the Hail Mary, was taught about transubstatiation, things that conflicted with their beleifs) and they didn't want to compromise my beleifs. No thank you. To much fellowship bull going on there. Can't even teach as an adjunct at the school because, even though i am christian, I am not lutheran.

no thanks, I will continue to pray, live a decent life (or at least the best to my ability), repent to God (not a preist) when I have done wrong, ask for help when I am lost and be the best and most loving wife, friend, person, and what not that I can be. Hopefully, at Judgement day, the good will outweigh the bad, and the bad, well I will be truly sorry for and I will be able to get into Heavan.Amen! I hope to meet you in heaven as one of my brothers and sisters in christ! You have stated what I have been trying to say the whole time! Believe in Jesus and do to the best of your ability what you believe that God has said is right. Its not about your religios sect its about your belief in the end.

hmmm, people have stoped posting... Well, I g2g so yea... see ye'all later. It would be cool if you would PM me or something... You seem to be kool so yea... we could like talk later or something...

Ok I am going to go point by point again:

1. No, he is not just a character. And that comment, about valuable line of though, was, frankly, rather insulting to me...

2. They are the same God but I think that they new testament was a more acurate representation of God because of all the advances in record keeping and writing and because it was mainly written by people who had a close intiment relationship with Gods son.

3. God doesn't get better or worse he does what he damn well wants. lol

4. Your last point made no sense because there is no parts in the Bible where you are supposed to "sell your daughter into slavery, or kill your child for being disobedient, or kill a gay person."

I don't make any sense? You say he's not just a character, then talk about "accurate representation". You say they are the same God, when before you referenced them in clear contrast. As to god doing what he damn well wants, that's hardly an admirable quality. Its a description of spoiled children and tyrants.

As to your point number 4, are you sure? Are you sure there's nothing in the bible about those things? You're betting your credibility, your integrity, and your faith on it, so before I go start looking things up, I'll ask you again. Are you sure?

As to your point number 4, are you sure? Are you sure there's nothing in the bible about those things? You're betting your credibility, your integrity, and your faith on it, so before I go start looking things up, I'll ask you again. Are you sure?Yea.. All of that is expected behaviour in Christians - according to the OT. Sorry mate.

Yea.. All of that is expected behaviour in Christians - according to the OT. Sorry mate.

I'm not saying Christians do those things, but Halo said Gods want us to obey "everything in the bible". I'm just seeing if he knows what that actually entails.

He backpedals alot, stressing parts of the OT that he likes, marginalizing others, and seems to ignore a lot of it.

I do not blame my faults on God, nor do I fail to take credit for the things I do. Much like crediting my mother for her role in any of my successes - as I cannot separate her influence from who and what I am, I also credit God.

Is it a character flaw when I acknowledge my mother's influence?
But the difference would obviously be the summative nature of "God".
You couldn't say the same of your mother, obviously.

I don't make any sense? You say he's not just a character, then talk about "accurate representation". You say they are the same God, when before you referenced them in clear contrast. As to god doing what he damn well wants, that's hardly an admirable quality. Its a description of spoiled children and tyrants.

As to your point number 4, are you sure? Are you sure there's nothing in the bible about those things? You're betting your credibility, your integrity, and your faith on it, so before I go start looking things up, I'll ask you again. Are you sure?
Don't start with me about soddam and gamorha that was because they were trying to rape peole and were haven't giant gay orgies in the middle of the city... That would deserve destruction of the city. There were areas were stoning of a child was in order but that was a specific and very bad crime plus there were worse punishments for lesser crimes in different societies. Selling daughter in to slavery? hunh? Go look it up... I don't remeber it being in there but you might be right.

Um, the contrast was the way that God was written about. Both Testaments showed God but there were very specific changes in the his attitude toward us. One thing never changed though... He never stoped loving us. At this point it seems you are out of arguments because you are making less sence. I gave you a specific explaination and you want another one.

yea, it may not be admirable but like a said before go ahead and invade heaven if you can, overthrow the "goverment/god" and set up a heavenly democracy if you think that God (who knows more about everything than the whole world combined) is doing such a shity job.

Anyway, since this thread's mostly been derailed by now, mind if I ask about your wife? Good.
How does/did she feel about god? - Did she share her god's value system (as in actual, not claimed)?

Saying that cognitive dissonance is the hallmark of Corney, prolly isn't all wrong. Interestingly, it doesn't depend on the topic of conversation. (I'm former "The Similized world" so don't be fooled by my join date).

No problem, I don't consider it really off-topic, anyway.

So, my wife never took the time to really read the Doctrine and Covenants (lot of peripheral Mormon beliefs), so I wouldn't say she really knows a lot about the details of her religion. She eschews socializing with most mormons because she finds many of them inconsistent. Generally, I think the Mormons use their "faith" as a tool for economic cooperation, political solidarity, and self-benefit. My wife doesn't see anything wrong with that.

Well, I don't think anybody is going to read all the way through this one and then stay in to the end...
...Corny might. I guess we'll see.

Don't start with me about soddam and gamorha that was because they were trying to rape peole and were haven't giant gay orgies in the middle of the city... That would deserve destruction of the city. There were areas were stoning of a child was in order but that was a specific and very bad crime plus there were worse punishments for lesser crimes in different societies. Selling daughter in to slavery? hunh? Go look it up... I don't remeber it being in there but you might be right.

Um, the contrast was the way that God was written about. Both Testaments showed God but there were very specific changes in the his attitude toward us. One thing never changed though... He never stoped loving us. At this point it seems you are out of arguments because you are making less sence. I gave you a specific explaination and you want another one.

yea, it may not be admirable but like a said before go ahead and invade heaven if you can, overthrow the "goverment/god" and set up a heavenly democracy if you think that God (who knows more about everything than the whole world combined) is doing such a shity job.

You keep disputing my coherency; perhaps you should more rigorously attend to your own. What did I say about Sodom? Nothing.

Now, you said that none of those things are in the Bible, now you backpedal and say I might be right. So which is it? Not too much certainty in your faith, or your arguments. I ask you again, are you sure? Shall I quote you again or are you prepared to admit you may not know as much about the bible as you claim?

Halo, you are the kind of christian that believes that stoning a child could ever be "in order". No wonder you don't mind all the blood your God likes to deal in.

For the last time, I don't believe god is doing a "shity job", because I don't believe its real. But if it were real, would it be doing such a "shity job" (your words)?

God does not care what denomination you are provided you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and keep to his words.
You mean words like,
"Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani?"


You can bet a lot of people keep to those words. Obviously Jesus, at that time, was just man, keeping to those words. Didn't Job say something similar, along those lines?

If he never goofed it up, why did he have to change it?
Being fickle, overtly critical and judgmental, and cruel made his own company the worst. It's a matter of extroversion, IMNSHO. Kind of like rearranging furniture/feng shui kind of thing.

...Corny might. I guess we'll see.

Heh, he might persevere to the end, emphatically pleading with himself, thinking he's preaching to us.

But he won't go back and read it through, and I can't blame him. He just often doesn't seem to address current postings very cogently.

Heh, he might persevere to the end, emphatically pleading with himself, thinking he's preaching to us.

But he won't go back and read it through, and I can't blame him. He just often doesn't seem to address current postings very cogently.
Admittedly, i'll bounce in and out. I don't have time to keep the argument for too long - as many of us don't - so as it was put so succintly before, i'm liable to "seagull" the thread.

I do appreciate posters like yourself, Muravyets and Grave_n_idle enough to see what you have to say. You folks are particularly intelligent and i'm happy to see some decent and well thought-out posts from y'all.
Of course, it really wouldn't be much if there weren't other posters who provide a little more than the modicum of an opposition, it tends to make better and more refined posters of us.
If nothing else, a lay person can get a few more facts out of a good, long slog.

It was always His plan.
As were those printed listings of regret for his infantile actions.
Pretty much a drama queen.

I do appreciate posters like yourself, Muravyets and Grave_n_idle enough to see what you have to say. You folks are particularly intelligent and i'm happy to see some decent and well thought-out posts from y'all.
Of course, it really wouldn't be much if there weren't other posters who provide a little more than the modicum of an opposition, it tends to make better and more refined posters of us.
If nothing else, a lay person can get a few more facts out of a good, long slog.

You're very kind, but I'm no more than a lay person myself. I haven't seen any less merit in your posts than in my own.

And besides, according to Halo, I don't make "sence" and I'm "out of arguments"...

I'm not saying Christians do those things, but Halo said Gods want us to obey "everything in the bible". I'm just seeing if he knows what that actually entails.Yes I got that ;)

He backpedals alot, stressing parts of the OT that he likes, marginalizing others, and seems to ignore a lot of it.Seems to be a very common trait amongst the NSG Christianity apologists.


So, my wife never took the time to really read the Doctrine and Covenants (lot of peripheral Mormon beliefs), so I wouldn't say she really knows a lot about the details of her religion. She eschews socializing with most mormons because she finds many of them inconsistent. Generally, I think the Mormons use their "faith" as a tool for economic cooperation, political solidarity, and self-benefit. My wife doesn't see anything wrong with that.Interesting. Sounds more like a trade association or workers union than a religion. I can relate to that.

Don't start with me about soddam and gamorha that was because they were trying to rape peole and were haven't giant gay orgies in the middle of the city... That would deserve destruction of the city. There were areas were stoning of a child was in order but that was a specific and very bad crime plus there were worse punishments for lesser crimes in different societies. Selling daughter in to slavery? hunh? Go look it up... I don't remeber it being in there but you might be right.If you're asking for the actual Bible passages, just say so. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to find a sitte to copy from.

There's several passages in the OT outlining rules for child care, slavery & so on. Some of these rules demand you stone unruly children to death. Others outline what a fair price for your daughter is, and how to go about selling her.
Crime has nothing whatt so ever to do with this.

Um, the contrast was the way that God was written about. Both Testaments showed God but there were very specific changes in the his attitude toward us. One thing never changed though... He never stoped loving us. At this point it seems you are out of arguments because you are making less sence. I gave you a specific explaination and you want another one.True. The god of the OT was all about love through liberal applications of burning, sacrifice & genocide.
The god of the NT - the Jesus god - was more about trying not to kill eachother & not being a total arse.

yea, it may not be admirable but like a said before go ahead and invade heaven if you can, overthrow the "goverment/god" and set up a heavenly democracy if you think that God (who knows more about everything than the whole world combined) is doing such a shity job.The god of the Bible can hardly be described as anything but a staggeringly evil lunatic. Still, I fail to see what good it would do to replace it with something else. America isn't some nice, loving nation. No nation is. If god existed, I'd be in favour of putting it to death, but that's all. No new gods, please.

EDIT: Straughn I'm soo hurt I didn't get an honorary mention as well :P

Being fickle, overtly critical and judgmental, and cruel made his own company the worst. It's a matter of extroversion, IMNSHO. Kind of like rearranging furniture/feng shui kind of thing.

Heh...in the Mormon doctrine, God has a wife somehwere...imagine how she feels...