NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok....you MUST be joking.

Personally I'm waiting for him to start screaming 'TESTIFY!' in a comically high voice.

I Agree with most of your pionts but we cannot judge if he goes to hell or not. Only God can judge and you should know that, my friend.

I am not passing judgement, but trying to warn of the dangers that are laid out in the Bible. Paul felt the urgency of fulfilling the Great Commission in light of the coming judgment: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:11). With Paul, we in the Assemblies of God say, "I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16).

Personally I'm waiting for him to start screaming 'TESTIFY!' in a comically high voice.


Im trying to decide if he is actually a troll.

I am not passing judgement, but trying to warn of the dangers that are laid out in the Bible. Paul felt the urgency of fulfilling the Great Commission in light of the coming judgment: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:11). With Paul, we in the Assemblies of God say, "I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16).


But you said the jews will go to hell, that was judgment, i have been trying to tell them the same as you, but i was for most of the time alone until you came.

Like I said, I don't believe in your magical sky-god. Should, however, something happen on this mythical 'Judgement Day', I will happily tell God to go to Hell, and leave me be.

You will so regret that you said that.

You will so regret that you said that.

Mmmm, I say I won't.

Sorry, but that is not written in the Bible for Gods sake, you are losing all the valid pionts you made before.
Just for information that guy who wrote that jews believe that the Qu'Ran is a guide book, he should check his brain it is calle the Torah, the same guy who suppposedly knows the bible and studied miracles. Don't Make us laugh.

The way I see it is how it is laid out in Exodus. The Christian God is the only God; all others are idols. But then Jesus is the Messiah and He has to be accepted in order to reach Heaven.

I am not passing judgement, but trying to warn of the dangers that are laid out in the Bible. Paul felt the urgency of fulfilling the Great Commission in light of the coming judgment:

Paul was also a mysoginist woman-hater who resented and feared women having places of authority within a newly founded church, so he created the myth of Mary Magdeline being a prostitute.

Instead of the most beloved of the disciples, and the intended leader of the church after Jesus' death, he painted her as a whore.

Why should we listen to Paul?

Mmmm, I say I won't.

So naïve.

The way I see it is how it is laid out in Exodus. The Christian God is the only God; all others are idols. But then Jesus is the Messiah and He has to be accepted in order to reach Heaven.

Yes it is true, but Also it is true that if a person lives a good life, christian like, and not of his faulthe doesn't have the belief in Christianity, not because he rejected it, he will be blessed by the Holy Spirit, and still as NDE's show they are in heaven.

So naïve.

You say naive, I say free to believe what I want.

So naïve.

So rational.

Paul was also a mysoginist woman-hater who resented and feared women having places of authority within a newly founded church, so he created the myth of Mary Magdeline being a prostitute.

Instead of the most beloved of the disciples, and the intended leader of the church after Jesus' death, he painted her as a whore.

Why should we listen to Paul?

Paul is a messenger of the Word of God.

So naïve.

My sentiments exact.

You say naive, I say free to believe what I want.

Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe what you want, but there will be serious consequences.

Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe what you want, but there will be serious consequences.

Enforced by whom? Not God, he doesn't exist.

Don't get me wrong, you are free to believe what you want, but there will be serious consequences.

Hmmm. I honestly don't care. If God is an all-loving chap, then he'll accept my wish (Fine, I'll phrase it more nicely) for him to leave me alone and not bring me into the whole Heaven/Hell thing.


If he exists. Which I don't think he does.

So naïve.


So arrogant.

What makes you think your faith is the only possible correct answer?

We all know you cant prove God exists, so that means your faith is based on nothing.
How then, can you have the balls to call anyone "naive"?

If he chooses not to believe, becuase he sees nothing to believe in, thats logical.

Illogical..would be a faith, based on something that isnt there.

Thats naive.

God does exist and his beliefs are laid out in the Bible.

Paul is a messenger of the Word of God.


So, your saying the "Word of God", is to hate women and lie about them?

Illogical..would be a faith, based on something that isnt there.

Luckily, my faith is based on God.

The only true God, is the God of Christianity, all others are idols. Of course our Jewish cousins worship the same Father, but they too if they do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah will go to Hell.
Oh I believe your and my God is the same, but beyond that I think our beliefs differ a bit.
You see, the God I believe in doesn't condemn people just because they worship Him under another name.

I have no proof Jesus existed, but I think he did. I don't think he was God's son though.
To me that doesn't matter. He had a lot of good ideas.

Unfortunately for him, for his time he was a radical, and he got the treatment most radicals who gained a substantial following and didn't conform to the norm, instead professing dangerous and morally questionable ideals - death.

God does exist and his beliefs are laid out in the Bible.

Prove both statements, then we'll accept them. Until then, statements such as this will be ignored

Enforced by whom? Not God, he doesn't exist.

The Inquisition.

So, your saying the "Word of God", is to hate women and lie about them?

Feminism and Appropriate Roles for Women
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the Assemblies of God believe modern roles undertaken by women today to be appropriate for Christian females? Do these roles apply differently for married women and mothers because of family concerns? What position does the Assemblies of God take in regard to the feminist agenda?
The Bible is clear that God the Creator expresses himself both in males and females. "God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27, NIV). The Bible is clear God the Savior offers spiritual redemption equally to males and females. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28, NIV). The Bible is clear God the Father extends His blessing equally to males and females. "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. . . . Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit" (Joel 2:28,29, NIV).

Tradition, culture, and assumptions about the meaning and application of some Bible passages have generated confusion regarding God’s will for men and women. Often this confusion centers around the Christian woman’s place in career, family, and church leadership. (See Question 6, "The Role of Women in the Church.")

Assemblies of God women include homemakers, pastors, educators, doctors, politicians, women in other professional vocations, and volunteers. Church tradition and conservative culture have not always embraced women’s full participation outside of roles, such as child caregiver, teacher, musician, or nurse.

The Assemblies of God believes God gives women and men talents and gifts in all areas of life. The Bible is the standard the church follows. Miriam, Moses’ sister, was a prophetess and leader (Exodus 15:20; Micah 6:4). Deborah was a government leader, spiritual leader, and a wife (Judges 4 and 5). Another woman, Jael, was used of God to fulfill one of Deborah’s prophecies (Judges 4). Abigail was a wise and godly woman who influenced David, Israel’s great leader (1 Samuel 25). Huldah was a wife and God’s spokesperson who inspired a national revival (2 Kings 22; 2 Chronicles 34). Job’s daughters inherited their father’s fortunes equally with their brothers (Job 42:13-15). Zelophehad’s five daughters’ inheritance rights were also honored in contrast to cultural tradition (Numbers 36).

Jesus’ earthly ministry included women; His exhortation to Mary and Martha was to spend time learning from Him (Luke 10:38-42). Luke 8:1-3 records many of the women Jesus healed supported Jesus and the disciples "out of their own means" (NIV). Lydia was a Christian businesswoman (Acts 16:13-15). Phoebe was a church leader (Romans 16:1,2). Priscilla was a Bible teacher (Acts 18:24-26). Women who witnessed the empty tomb were the first to proclaim Jesus’ resurrection from the dead (Luke 24:1-10).

The example of a godly woman cited most frequently is the Proverbs 31 woman, who was wife, mother, businesswoman, real estate manager, marketer, supervisor, artist, and adviser.

We must be careful to say that the Assemblies of God does not endorse the radical feminist political/social agenda which claims to defend the best interests of all women. The goals of these groups are deceptive: a woman’s right to choice is twisted to support the atrocity of abortion; lifestyles outside of traditional family structures become a warped emphasis on lesbian rights; a woman’s right to a career becomes an aggressive degradation to women and mothers who do not choose a job outside their homes. Radical feminists cite religion as a tool of oppressors. These agendas become an organized platform to degrade, bash, and hate men. The Bible teaches mutual Christian submission and respect.

The Assemblies of God believes in and supports rights for both males and females. The church also believes that men and women are partners in protecting and nurturing families. Godly parents must dedicate themselves to raising children with godly character. Together, mothers and fathers are responsible to make career, economic, and personal choices that strengthen the family. Single women who are not parents must also honor God in their relationship roles and vocational choices. The role choices husbands and wives, single mothers, or single women make may be varied, some may be dictated by economic need or may be untraditional–but the choices must reflect obedience to God’s Word and will.

God’s Word holds women in high regard. Females and males are together the complete physical expression of God’s image in humanity. God-given gender differences are to be protected and celebrated. God has clearly communicated that neither gender is spiritually or socially superior. The Assemblies of God will continue to give women opportunities to be copartners in the work of the Kingdom. "God does not show favoritism" (Acts 10:34, NIV).

CONCERNS:

The Assemblies of God is not associated with nor does the church seek identification with the militant, radical voices that break godly moral and ethical standards. This concern keeps the church silent when it should speak out. There must always be divine love and compassion for people oppressed because of an ungodly social order. The church believes the answer to the injustices perpetuated by the radical feminists is to support women by encouraging them to creatively fulfill various roles in personal obedience to God. This is one aspect of the true freedom found in Christ (John 8:36).

God does exist and his beliefs are laid out in the Bible.


You can say it a million times, and it still wont make it true.

And the bible, (New Testament) is based on fourth or fifth-hand information, and therefore cannot be trusted.

Feminism and Appropriate Roles for Women
This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.


BLAH, BLAH.....thats nice.

You familiar with Leviticus?

God does not want barren women to have children, that is why they were made so.

Ah well. Just pass me your antibiotics when you don't need them so that I can send it to the needy.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28, NIV)

So homosexuals are now OK. Kthxbi LOLZ

Luckily, my faith is based on God.


So, totally aside from the fact that you choose to believe it, what evidence do you have, that indicates your faith isnt a fantasy?

The Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! :D

Enforced by whom? Not God, he doesn't exist.

Don't begin telling us your jokes. Ok don't believe in the God. But if you mock our church you will have terrible concequences in you afterlife.
Let me tell you a definition of hell:
God- You will be ashamed of God and resent that you will never meet him and talk with him.
Nature- You will feel all the natural suurondings around you hostile. You can never merge with it. This includes feelings of physical pain.
People- You will vent your anger at other people cursing and offending. You will have no friends, and feel lonely.
Yourself- You will feel angry at yourself, blaspheme and always frustrated why you dind't live a good chritsian life.

Heaven is the total oppsite of this, so you can just imagine.

So heaven isn't the sky and hell isn't a flaming pit. These are the Catholic defenitions sa thaught by God of these places.

Faith describes itself.

So heaven isn't the sky and hell isn't a flaming pit. These are the Catholic defenitions sa thaught by God of these places.

Heaven is unimaginably good and Hell is unimaginably bad.

Enforced by whom? Not God, he doesn't exist.
I think there's some ambivalence on that question, since you can't prove that God doesn't exist either.

Don't begin telling us your jokes. Ok don't believe in the God. But if you mock our church you will have terrible concequences in you afterlife.
Let me tell you a definition of hell:
God- You will be ashamed of God and resent that you will never meet him and talk with him.
Nature- You will feel all the natural suurondings around you hostile. You can never merge with it. This includes feelings of physical pain.
People- You will vent your anger at other people cursing and offending. You will have no friends, and feel lonely.
Yourself- You will feel angry at yourself, blaspheme and always frustrated why you dind't live a good chritsian life.

Heaven is the total oppsite of this, so you can just imagine.

So heaven isn't the sky and hell isn't a flaming pit. These are the Catholic defenitions sa thaught by God of these places.

Wasn't a joke. It was perfectly valid. God doesn't exist so shall punish nobody.

The definition of Hell is merely 'a place without God'. Completely ignoring the fact that this means God is not omnipresent as the Bible claims (yet another contradiction), this means Earth is in fact hell.

Everything relies on Faith.

Faith describes itself.


Excellent way not to answer tough questions.

Tell, me Mr Womens Rights,
What do you make of this?


Leviticus.
19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Hmm...so God feels having sex with an unmarried woman, means she should be scourged to holy hell eh?

Thats an excellent message for young women, isnt it?

That God, fella..he sure is wise and all knowing isnt he?

I think there's some ambivalence on that question, since you can't prove that God doesn't exist either.

It is a reasonable assumption balanced on probability, thus is the most reasonable and logical to make.

As for Georgia saying 'faith describes itself', it does. The definition of faith is unjustified belief. Unjustified belief. Mull that one over.

We all know you cant prove God exists, so that means your faith is based on nothing.

Illogical..would be a faith, based on something that isnt there.
Not exactly. Faith it based on something that you can't understand and can't prove the existence of, but nontheless believe exists.

Wasn't a joke. It was perfectly valid. God doesn't exist so shall punish nobody.

The definition of Hell is merely 'a place without God'. Completely ignoring the fact that this means God is not omnipresent as the Bible claims (yet another contradiction), this means Earth is in fact hell.

Just because you and I can't see God doesn't mean he isn't Present. So you don't see the air, so it doesn't exist. If you take it in the same context air and wind don't exist.

Excellent way not to answer tough questions.

Tell, me Mr Womens Rights,
What do you make of this?


Leviticus.
19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Hmm...so God feels having sex with an unmarried woman, means she should be scourged to holy hell eh?

Thats an excellent message for young women, isnt it?

That God, fella..he sure is wise and all knowing isnt he?

Sounds perfectly justified to me.

Excellent way not to answer tough questions.

Tell, me Mr Womens Rights,
What do you make of this?


Leviticus.
19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Hmm...so God feels having sex with an unmarried woman, means she should be scourged to holy hell eh?

Thats an excellent message for young women, isnt it?

That God, fella..he sure is wise and all knowing isnt he?

You don't understand do you? Don't you see that in order to understan the Bible you have to put yourself in thier time and their culture and then apply it to our current lifes.

Not exactly. Faith it based on something that you can't understand and can't prove the existence of, but nontheless believe exists.


So then, faith is something that is based upon no actual thing, or concept, or events, or actual entities.
Since there is absolutely no proof that God ever has, does, or will exist, this means to have faith in him, is groundless.

Just because you and I can't see God doesn't mean he isn't Present. So you don't see the air, so it doesn't exist. If you take it in the same context air and wind don't exist.

*Yawn*

Oh look! A stationary vehicle!

Just because you and I can't see God doesn't mean he isn't Present. So you don't see the air, so it doesn't exist. If you take it in the same context air and wind don't exist.

Air is visible, it has a blue hue, hence the colour of the sky on a clear day. Wind is the movement of air, not a physical body but empirically provable regardless. Regarding the presence thing, Hell is a place without God, which is the accepted Christian definition, so that proves he is not omnipresent. If he is everywhere, why isn't he in Hell?

A convinced belief; a condition of mind fully satisfied; next to actual knowledge. We have faith the sun will rise to-morrow morning, but the knowledge can not be actual until after sunrise.

You don't understand do you? Don't you see that in order to understan the Bible you have to put yourself in thier time and their culture and then apply it to our current lifes.


So, the words of God only apply to the THEN, and not nessacarily the NOW?

Is that it?

So the, why do so many Christians quote Leviticus when speaking about homosexuality?

Either ALL of the words of God are relevant, or none of them are, wich is it?

You cant pick and choose wich parts of the Gospel you want to follow.

It is a reasonable assumption balanced on probability, thus is the most reasonable and logical to make.

As for Georgia saying 'faith describes itself', it does. The definition of faith is unjustified belief. Unjustified belief. Mull that one over.
That is a good point.
God is notorious for not being based on logic. The Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy has a very funny joke about it.

As for unjustified faith... I can justify why I believe in God, but I can't claim I'm right, nor that my belief is the only view.
Actually, not even the only valid view.

Air is visible, it has a blue hue, hence the colour of the sky on a clear day. Wind is the movement of air, not a physical body but empirically provable regardless. Regarding the presence thing, Hell is a place without God, which is the accepted Christian definition, so that proves he is not omnipresent. If he is everywhere, why isn't he in Hell?

Your questions are becoming base and with no sense. You have just said that the definiont of Hell is a place without God and that is its purpose!!! And I have never seen air moving have you, i have never seen blue hue moving, have you?

A convinced belief; a condition of mind fully satisfied; next to actual knowledge. We have faith the sun will rise to-morrow morning, but the knowledge can not be actual until after sunrise.

Learn the difference between a priori knowledge and faith. A priori knowledge has justification, faith does not.

Learn the difference between a priori knowledge and faith. A priori knowledge has justification, faith does not.

And I refer you back to the Bible for the umpteenth time.

So then, faith is something that is based upon no actual thing, or concept, or events, or actual entities.
Since there is absolutely no proof that God ever has, does, or will exist, this means to have faith in him, is groundless.
God is perhaps best described as faith/belief in a concept.

Also, events are often attributed to this concept, but there has never been any empirical proof to support this.

So, the words of God only apply to the THEN, and not nessacarily the NOW?

Is that it?

So the, why do so many Christians quote Leviticus when speaking about homosexuality?

Either ALL of the words of God are relevant, or none of them are, wich is it?

You cant pick and choose wich parts of the Gospel you want to follow.

You're hopless, If I try to answer you you will say why,why,why,why since you can't accept the facts.

So, the words of God only apply to the THEN, and not nessacarily the NOW?

Is that it?

So the, why do so many Christians quote Leviticus when speaking about homosexuality?

Either ALL of the words of God are relevant, or none of them are, wich is it?

You cant pick and choose wich parts of the Gospel you want to follow.

Did you fail to read the whole of Maypole's post?

then apply it to our current lifes.

God is perhaps best described as faith/belief in a concept.

Also, events are often attributed to this concept, but there has never been any empirical proof to support this.


So then, is it not logical to conclude, that this concept is without merit?

Would not rational thing to do would be to declare it non-existant?

Your questions are becoming base and with no sense. You have just said that the definiont of Hell is a place without God and that is its purpose!!! And I have never seen air moving have you, i have never seen blue hue moving, have you?

No, but I have sen blue hue while stationary, hence why the sky is blue. Air moving is felt, and each of the senses count as methods of gaining empirical data, not just sight. With the statement that Hell is a place without God (which you just agreed to), by definition, the claim by Christians that God is omnipresent is wrong, as that would mean he would be in Hell. Just because you haven't gone past first grade, it doesn't make my arguments 'base' or have 'no sense'.

You cant pick and choose wich parts of the Gospel you want to follow.
Er, why not?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! :D
I always find it interesting when I see references to: Monty Python, Douglas Adams, or Terry Pratchett. They have completely infiltrated the culture. Well, the cultures that I am part of at least. :p

I think there are more than 20 pages since I wrote my first article in this thread. Should be more careful next time not to start a hot debate.:p

A convinced belief; a condition of mind fully satisfied; next to actual knowledge. We have faith the sun will rise to-morrow morning, but the knowledge can not be actual until after sunrise.

Actually we have calculations that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that sort of thing is below you. The sun and the stars are but manifestation of God's presence.

The question that you should ask yourself is - do you want chocolate? Or are you content with an eternity without interstellar travel?

So then, is it not logical to conclude, that this concept is without merit?

Would not rational thing to do would be to declare it non-existant?

No, that would be satanic thing to do.

And I refer you back to the Bible for the umpteenth time.

And I refer you to the lack of proof for the Bible's validity for the umpteenth time. The Bible proves nothing.

No, that would be satanic thing to do.

Really? I thought intolerance would be more satanic/sinful than logical thought, and didn't you condemn homosexuals?

Yes.

No, but I have sen blue hue while stationary, hence why the sky is blue. Air moving is felt, and each of the senses count as methods of gaining empirical data, not just sight. With the statement that Hell is a place without God (which you just agreed to), by definition, the claim by Christians that God is omnipresent is wrong, as that would mean he would be in Hell. Just because you haven't gone past first grade, it doesn't make my arguments 'base' or have 'no sense'.

-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God is not Omnipresent.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God doesn't exists.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you are right.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean the Bible is full of lies.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you won't face judgment.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't make you a more intelligent, modern person than I am.

And Finally hope you realise you're wrong and that God is Right.

So then, is it not logical to conclude, that this concept is without merit?

Would not rational thing to do would be to declare it non-existant?
Yes, but not half as fun! ;)

Did you fail to read the whole of Maypole's post.


I read it, its just filled with large gaping holes, and you have yet to directly answer any of my challenges.

Many Christians often quote Leviticus directly when mentioning how wrong they feel homosexuality is.
They reason that it is stated clearly, so it must be wrong.

However it also clearly states that unmarried women who are raped, or have sex, should be scourged, instead of killed.

So then, why is one used, and not the other?

Er, why not?

Because, since the Bible all supposedly is the word of one source, God, either it is all valid or invalid. If you disregard some as invalid, it must all be.

Post the passages.

Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God is not Omnipresent.

No, the fact he isn't in hell means that by a CHRISTIAN'S perspective, he is not omnipresent. Who is more damned, an independant thinker or a truster of lies?

No, that would be satanic thing to do.


Now your being foolish.

How many nice, peaceful men of faith are out there, that dont believe in God?

Billions.

If you think that other religions such as Buddhism, or any others are SATANIC, youre no longer smart enough to carry a conversation with.

Your questions are becoming base and with no sense. You have just said that the definiont of Hell is a place without God and that is its purpose!!! And I have never seen air moving have you, i have never seen blue hue moving, have you?
Actually, you can "see" air move when other particles are caught up by it, such as smoke, dust, sand and leaves.
(Refer how turbulence is researched by using coloured smoke.)
And in extreme cases like tornadoes, larger things as well. Like cows. ;)

Actually, you can "see" air move when other particles are caught up by it, such as smoke, dust, sand and leaves.
(Refer how turbulence is researched by using coloured smoke.)
And in extreme cases like tornadoes, larger things as well. Like cows. ;)

Oh, don't forget heat distortion, which is rising air.

-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God is not Omnipresent.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God doesn't exists.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you are right.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean the Bible is full of lies.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you won't face judgment.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't make you a more intelligent, modern person than I am.

And Finally hope you realise you're wrong and that God is Right.

Come on, you still haven't answered why God can be omnipresent yet absent from Hell. There is a contradiction here. Try address it.

Because, since the Bible all supposedly is the word of one source, God, either it is all valid or invalid. If you disregard some as invalid, it must all be.
But I'm not a Christian. ;)
I don't think the Bible is God's word, but I think it has lots of good stuff in it too, along with the dross.

Come on, you still haven't answered why God can be omnipresent yet absent from Hell. There is a contradiction here. Try address it.

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope! You just keep asking more and more questions. But seriously if you go and pray and have some reflection time alone, maybe God will tell you in your concious, God speaks to us altough we don't realise most of the time.

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope! You just keep asking more and more questions. But seriously if you go and pray and have some reflection time alone, maybe God will tell you in your concious, God speaks to us altough we don't realise most of the time.


Or maybe you could ask these questuions to yourself, and do some serious critical thinking.

Or is it you are afraid to learn what answers you find?

But I'm not a Christian. ;)
I don't think the Bible is God's word, but I think it has lots of good stuff in it too, along with the dross.

I too, but I was referring to the fact that Christians like to mix and match to suit whatever argument they are in at the time, either disregarding the rest or branding it metaphorical.

Oh, don't forget heat distortion, which is rising air.

Ok so you see the damned air move, have fun.
You don't see atoms do you, you don't see a rock with atoms in line do you then?

Ok so you see the damned air move, have fun.
You don't see atoms do you, you don't see a rock with atoms in line do you then?


no.

We have to use science to do that.

Science still hasnt found God.

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope! You just keep asking more and more questions. But seriously if you go and pray and have some reflection time alone, maybe God will tell you in your concious, God speaks to us altough we don't realise most of the time.
Hehe, I love asking questions too, and I have this image in my head of God appearing before me, waving His arms in the air and shouting:
"For the love of Me, will you stop asking all these questions! Go bother someone else!"

Or maybe you could ask these questuions to yourself, and do some serious critical thinking.

Or is it you are afraid to learn what answers you find?

I will continue to learn because I know that it is necessary. People like you are afraid because they can't face the truth that The Almighty God is alive.

I will continue to learn because I know that it is necessary. People like you are afraid because they can't face the truth that The Almighty God is alive.


How do you know what the truth is?

If the truth is so irrefutable, what evidence do you have to show me?

That makes sense, critical thinking and In a way I believe there is a voice but that comes from critical thinking as this voice sways our thinking to the best possible outcome. So in a way we are always listening to this voice but whether this is god or not is debatable and it depends what suits you personally.

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope! You just keep asking more and more questions. But seriously if you go and pray and have some reflection time alone, maybe God will tell you in your concious, God speaks to us altough we don't realise most of the time.

Nah, I was just reminding you that Visual-Kei asked a question which you did not address. If you want a good debate, do the necessary reading and come here with constructive, well-supported views.

That's the minimum courtesy.

You dont need proof, you just know personally. The Almighty God thing could exist wholly to someone but not another

You dont need proof, you just know personally. The Almighty God thing could exist wholly to someone but not another


So..God is like Santa Claus?

Children know him to be real.

So..God is like Santa Claus?

Children know him to be real.
They're of the same stock. So is death.

In universes with a less firm hold of reality they are called "anthropomorphic personalities" and really do appear.

Here though, they remain in our minds.

That is why all religians are true, for a given value of truth.

Ok so you see the damned air move, have fun.
You don't see atoms do you, you don't see a rock with atoms in line do you then?

No no no. Not expletives. State your stand clearly. Do you agree that you can in fact see moving air due to particles suspended in it? Or due to heat distortion effects?

Clarity of thought and expression. Intellectually cogent argumentation.

Hallmark of the wise.

No, that would be satanic thing to do.Oh, come on. Everything non-catholic is "satanic".

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope! You just keep asking more and more questions. But seriously if you go and pray and have some reflection time alone, maybe God will tell you in your concious, God speaks to us altough we don't realise most of the time.


I think the point the poster is getting at via the questions, is to find out wether or not you have questioned your faith? If not then how can you be so sure about it? If you can find descrepancies in what you belive or was taught to be true, then surley it cannot be true. Unless you have answers, in which case let us have them.

Nah, I was just reminding you that Visual-Kei asked a question which you did not address. If you want a good debate, do the necessary reading and come here with constructive, well-supported views.

That's the minimum courtesy.

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.

You dont need proof, you just know personally. The Almighty God thing could exist wholly to someone but not another


There is no objective proof for Gods existance, but if you can subjectivly prove to your own satisfaction that God does exist then fair doo's mate!

I think the point the poster is getting at via the questions, is to find out wether or not you have questioned your faith? If not then how can you be so sure about it? If you can find descrepancies in what you belive or was taught to be true, then surley it cannot be true. Unless you have answers, in which case let us have them.

I have never said anything that contradicts my faith. You contradict me.

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.Faith is usually independent of any facts. That's why they call it "faith".

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.

And we are stating the fact that what you state at fact is not proven fact and thus cannnot be stated as such.

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.


Incorrect.

You are not stating fact.

You are stating your own opinions.

You speak like you know what you are talking about... but it is, of course, pure speculation. Where is your EVIDENCE that the entity constructed would not be capable of 'real' love?

Because you forced it to display love you. Love requires an element of choice. If you want someone to love you, you can be very nice to them, do everything in your power to give them what they want and that can in some cases encourage them to love you back but the fact is it isnt certian. If we could force people to love us, the world would be a very different place. Perhaps you should instead prove that love can be forced.


That isn't the 'nature' of the thing... that is it's 'definition'. You are trying to equate the omnipotence of god, with simple semantics. You obviously don't think much of this 'god'.

God is omnipotent. Its not for a lack of power that he can't do that. Its simpley a defeinition that humans have placed upon it. The only way to undo it would be for God to in time past alter what the word Hexagon means.


Bullshit. Prove it. It is speculation and hollow rhetoric, until you put up something more than 'this is how I see it'.

Frankly, if anyone thinks they can force love, I would like to see how it works. You can enocourage love, give love yourself, but it is impossible to force it from someone else.


I don't CHOOSE not to believe it. It is inconsistent (not surprising... how consistent would you EXPECT a series of books written over a thousand years to be?) and relies ENTIRELY on it's own internal claims to truth.

It is consistant, and if your going to claim it isnt, show me concrete examples where it isn't and I'll explain them


Well, the Lemony Snicket books claim to be 'factual histories', but I'm skeptical about those, also.

We have the author here, he doesnt claim these are facts.


As for your 'Christian Apologetics' sites, you might get away with peddling that kind of immature bullshit on people that have NOT researched the matter, but kindly don't condescend any further, to continue attempting to ply them in my direction.

So your unwilling to look at evidence that supports my argument. How very immature of you.


Perhaps god 'hardening Pharaoh's heart' means something else, down your way.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html#harden

Read this. And if you dont read it because it supports me, your only going more in the direction of immaturity.


Regarding Eden... if you think it is just 'a place', I pity your grasp of the scripture... I could argue about the specifics of the test - the refusal to explain 'lying', the unexplained presence of the serpent, the fact that the serpent actually tells only truth... but I'm not going to bother.


The Serpant does lie. He says that they will not die, and they would.


Because YOU say so? I don't consider you sufficiently divine to accept you as universal arbiter, I'm afraid.

How just is it if a judge just ignores the crimes of a murder without any kind of punishment for anyone


All irrelevent, if you actually believe he was 'god'. 30-something years of suffering - even the worst kind imaginable - is a blink of the eye to an eternal god. Plus - of course - we have no reason to actually believe Jesus (existed?) could feel pain, in the normal 'human' fashion.

We have plenty of evidence that he existed. More evidence than most other figures. And if there is evidence to suggest he couldnt feel pain, I'd like to see it. Also while 30 years of suffering is not much in God's terms, it is in terms of humans and Jesus was a human.


If I went through it, how would that be parallel? I am not god... and I don't claim to be. If I went through it - it really WOULD be a sacrifice.

Well then you would understand that even if it was temporary it was a sacrifice

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/2littlepain.html

www.csicop.org/.../ medjugorje/light-small.jpg
Contradict this.

I have never said anything that contradicts my faith. You contradict me.

I don't seehow I contradict you, seeing as my last post to you was my first, and I only attempted to explain to you why the non belivers ask so many questions of the belivers.

Look as a Christian, you see it as your job to convert people in order to save their souls yeah?

As Atheists some of them want you to think, really tyhink about your faith and why you belive, heh and some of em don't care a monkeys.

Personaly I do belive in God, but because I cannot honestly read the Bible and not have unaswered questions, or see my way out of the contradictions(the hell example being a fine one) then I cannot belive that God as the Bible portrays God is an acurate discription of God, hence I am not a Christian.

This is what I mean by questioning your faith.

www.csicop.org/.../ medjugorje/light-small.jpg
Contradict this.


what?

A broken link to an image file?

I think it kinda does the job all by itself.

I have never said anything that contradicts my faith. You contradict me.

You have stated 2 things worthy of note;
1. You are a Catholic (as in of the Catholic faith).
2. You acknowledge and accept the definition that Hell is a place without God.

And now the argument...
1. To contradict your faith would be to say or express something that contradicts the values or beliefs of your professed faith.
2. To be omnipresent, God must be everywhere.
3. Catholics and those of Catholic faith believe God is omnipresent, else they contradict Catholicism (though not Christianity as a whole).
4. You acknowledged God is not in Hell, so he therefore cannot be omnipresent.
5. You contradicted therein the Catholic idea or faith that God is omnipresent.
6. Your insistence that you have not contradicted your faith is false.

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.

Dishing out your opinions at others is not stating facts, James. Oh look! Mud drying!

Faith is usually independent of any facts. That's why they call it "faith".


Thats rubbish for a faith to be independant of facts is an excerise in stupidity of the higest order, and I'm sure that the Bible asks us to use our brains when it comes to God.

The Serpant does lie. He says that they will not die, and they would.So does God... I seem to recall him asking a certain person to sacrifice his son.

Thats rubbish for a faith to be independant of facts is an excerise in stupidity of the higest order, and I'm sure that the Bible asks us to use our brains when it comes to God.When it comes to things that cannot be proven by facts anymore, it takes faith. I'm sorry if what I said came across differently.

You have stated 2 things worthy of note;
1. You are a Catholic (as in of the Catholic faith).
2. You acknowledge and accept the definition that Hell is a place without God.

And now the argument...
1. To contradict your faith would be to say or express something that contradicts the values or beliefs of your professed faith.
2. To be omnipresent, God must be everywhere.
3. Catholics and those of Catholic faith believe God is omnipresent, else they contradict Catholicism (though not Christianity as a whole).
4. You acknowledged God is not in Hell, so he therefore cannot be omnipresent.
5. You contradicted therein the Catholic idea or faith that God is omnipresent.
6. Your insistence that you have not contradicted your faith is false.

God is everywhere but in hell the people which are their won't feel his precense that's what i' ve been trying to tell you, and by asking more questions you are only showing that you don't believe in anything , because believing is not seeing, beleiving is having faith.

So does God... I seem to recall him asking a certain person to sacrifice his son.

That was just a methaphor. It is a lesson that we should trust always in God.

God is everywhere but in hell the people which are their won't feel his precense that's what i' ve been trying to tell you, and by asking more questions you are only showing that you don't believe in anything , because believing is not seeing, beleiving is having faith.Seen "The Prophecy" with Cristopher Walken, too?

That was just a methaphor. It is a lesson that we should trust always in God.I see. And it's not a lesson that God may speak to you in metaphors? I'm not sure about you, but there's a lot of people that take the Garden of Eden metaphor for real.

God is everywhere but in hell the people which are their won't feel his precense that's what i' ve been trying to tell you, and by asking more questions you are only showing that you don't believe in anything , because believing is not seeing, beleiving is having faith.


Im afraid your missing the point.

Hes showing you where, and why you have contradicted yourself, and you are refusing to answer him, and insist on repeating yourself.

He says that if God is not in Hell, as you believe, then God isnt truly Omnipresent, and therefore a contradiction.

I see. And it's not a lesson that God may speak to you in metaphors? I'm not sure about you, but there's a lot of people that take the Garden of Eden metaphor for real.

It is also a metaphor divide into two parts: The first Story, The Second Story, don't have the information on it now though.

God is everywhere but in hell the people which are their won't feel his precense that's what i' ve been trying to tell you, and by asking more questions you are only showing that you don't believe in anything , because believing is not seeing, beleiving is having faith.

Good. At least an attempt at addressing the issue at hand.

When it comes to things that cannot be proven by facts anymore, it takes faith. I'm sorry if what I said came across differently.


No need to applogise, and I sorta agree but let me ask you this, do you really belive in God without some sort of internal proof, not even if nobody else belives your proof you have at least proven to your self, really?

God is everywhere but in hell

Thanks for agreeing God is not omnipresent and thus proving the Catholic definition of God is wrong.

I see. And it's not a lesson that God may speak to you in metaphors? I'm not sure about you, but there's a lot of people that take the Garden of Eden metaphor for real.
The garden of Eden isn't real?
I've booked tickets to a metaphor?!

:headbang:

No need to applogise, and I sorta agree but let me ask you this, do you really belive in God without some sort of internal proof, not even if nobody else belives your proof you have at least proven to your self, really?But that wouldn't really be a fact then, would it? It would be conviction, a form of faith.

The garden of Eden isn't real?
I've booked tickets to a metaphor?!

:headbang:


Thats what you get for buying tickets from the Tooth Fairy.

Thats what you get for buying tickets from the Tooth Fairy.
Damn. I better check the quarters she gave me for my teeth isn't chocolate money...

Im afraid your missing the point.

Hes showing you where, and why you have contradicted yourself, and you are refusing to answer him, and insist on repeating yourself.

He says that if God is not in Hell, as you believe, then God isnt truly Omnipresent, and therefore a contradiction.

What the Hell does it matter to you if you don't believe in God? I tell what it matters to you.
You want to put dirt on our religion and on God, you want to make us seem as liars, make people atheists like you, question the Church, But one day All of you will know the truth that GOD truly exists.The more I try to answer the more you question that is the problem, you are never satisfied your egoistic nature which you cannot contain leads you to this. My friend, if everyone keeps asking no one would believe in anything from the supernatural to the normal. This was my point at the begining that society's demorilizastion is leading to its downfall, and no one has answered me on that or told me that i am right/not right. If we all prayed sincerely I would assure you that none of the natural disaters, events would happen, for example September 11 was prohepised by those who had NDE's and it happened. You don't see it we could have prevented it. We could pray and crops would grow. We are greater than nature. We could control it by prayer just like Jesus did in the Bible.

No it isnt. Your still not getting this. God made the world perfect and we were in a perfect relationship with him. We spoilt that relationship by disobeying



No, it is mucked up. The perfection is in our ability to sin, not sinning itself.
You said that God made this world perfect, and that God made us the way he intended us to be, and that God made us to 'muck things up'. Therefore, unless God botched it (made us imperfect) everything is as it should be. Like the perfect chisel, we are doing what we were designed to do: we are merrily 'mucking things up' as we should be, so nothing is really mucked up at all. The world is still perfect, as perfect as it always was, as are we.

Damn. I better check the quarters she gave me for my teeth isn't chocolate money...

You make it sound like chocolate money is a bad thing. :D

*downs another Van Houten*

Thanks for agreeing God is not omnipresent and thus proving the Catholic definition of God is wrong.

It seems i forgot the damned comma after God, and you didn't understan you turner. It was like this God is everywhere, but in hell.....
HAPPY NOW??

But that wouldn't really be a fact then, would it? It would be conviction, a form of faith.


Naaaaa all belife is subjective(heh so I belive) even our science is subjective to humans, and ultimatly we have no objective proof for anything.

So even science is a faith based belife(ultimatly)So given this how can anything be a fact? Well it is a fact that this Earth revolves around our Sun, and I guess we could call this an objective fact(bearing in mind the above) So what is the differance between this fact and ohhh lets just say a faith in God born out of seeing ones prayers come true time after time after time.

The later of course is subjective to the person beliving, but it still counts as proof.

The point being, that if you have faith in God but you have no subjective proof then basicaly you have been brainwashed and you are probably a moron to boot. The truth though is that there are very few belivers out there that have not proved to themselves at least that God does exists, so whilst belife in God because it can not be proved objectivly is still a faith based belife it is not and should not be a 100% faith based belife.

What the Hell does it matter to you if you don't believe in God? I tell what it matters to you.
You want to put dirt on our religion and on God, you want to make us seem as liars, make people atheists like you, question the Church, But one day All of you will know the truth that GOD truly exists.The more I try to answer the more you question that is the problem, you are never satisfied your egoistic nature which you cannot contain leads you to this. My friend, if everyone keeps asking no one would believe in anything from the supernatural to the normal. This was my point at the begining that society's demorilizastion is leading to its downfall, and no one has answered me on that or told me that i am right/not right. If we all prayed sincerely I would assure you that none of the natural disaters, events would happen, for example September 11 was prohepised by those who had NDE's and it happened. You don't see it we could have prevented it. We could pray and crops would grow. We are greater than nature. We could control it by prayer just like Jesus did in the Bible.

Without water and nutrients then? This is a testible hypothesis! James Randi to the fore!

You make it sound like chocolate money is a bad thing. :D

*downs another Van Houten*
Heh, good point. ;)

It seems i forgot the damned comma after God, and you didn't understan you turner. It was like this God is everywhere, but in hell.....
HAPPY NOW??

In which case, now you contradict your faith by saying that God is indeed in Hell, which goes against the Catholic definition of Hell (a place without God).

You're in a lose-lose situation here.

Edit: Oh, and you called me a turner. True, Michael Turner to be precise.

Define miracle, then.


I define a miracle as how events move you on the inside, your spirit. Anything that touches your spirit, metaphorically speaking, is a miracle.

It doesn't require God, just you.

In which case, now you contradict your faith by saying that God is indeed in Hell, which goes against the Catholic definition of Hell (a place without God).

You're in a lose-lose situation here.


Heh I think that is the case for the whole of Christianity.

What the Hell does it matter to you if you don't believe in God? I tell what it matters to you.
You want to put dirt on our religion and on God,

You asked for it.

First, I dont NEED to "put dirt" on your faith, your religion, or your God, becuase its already there.
Christianity is responsible for some of the worst attrocities ever done by mortal hands.





you want to make us seem as liars, make people atheists like you, question the Church, But one day All of you will know the truth that GOD truly exists.The more I try to answer the more you question that is the problem,

Asking questions is the primary way humans learn anything.
To have blind faith is stupid, and even your own bible warns you of this.

Ideally, by asking yourself tough questions concerning your faith, it can become stronger, or, perhaps you may find there are questions that you dont have answers to, and neither will God.

ALWAYS question important things, to do otherwise is extremely dumb.




you are never satisfied your egoistic nature which you cannot contain leads you to this.

Dont presume you know anything about me.



My friend, if everyone keeps asking no one would believe in anything from the supernatural to the normal.

So you advocate blind ignorance?



.If we all prayed sincerely I would assure you that none of the natural disaters, events would happen,

Total horsecrap.

You actually think that prayer alone would have stopped 9/11?
You think a few devotional candles was all it would have taken to stop Katrina?

How can you be so arrogant to think that maybe God didnt those things for a reason?



for example September 11 was prohepised by those who had NDE's and it happened. You don't see it we could have prevented it. We could pray and crops would grow. We are greater than nature. We could control it by prayer just like Jesus did in the Bible.

I think your insane.

In which case, now you contradict your faith by saying that God is indeed in Hell, which goes against the Catholic definition of Hell (a place without God).

You're in a lose-lose situation here.

Edit: Oh, and you called me a turner. True, Michael Turner to be precise.

Oh horrors! Quick Maypole, check out what is the punishment for a Catholic who contradicts his own faith! Mod forbid!

Just encouraging you to read, my friend. ;)

In which case, now you contradict your faith by saying that God is indeed in Hell, which goes against the Catholic definition of Hell (a place without God).

You're in a lose-lose situation here.

Edit: Oh, and you called me a turner. True, Michael Turner to be precise.

I want fall for your tricks, the best way to defend my religions is GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.

Heh I think that is the case for the whole of Christianity.
Hardly. Not everyone are fundamentalists or refuse to change how they percieve their religion.
I know several that are both secure in their faith and well adjusted to modern society.
Heh, to the point where hardline christians would call then "un-christian".

What the Hell does it matter to you if you don't believe in God? I tell what it matters to you.
You want to put dirt on our religion and on God, you want to make us seem as liars, make people atheists like you, question the Church, But one day All of you will know the truth that GOD truly exists.The more I try to answer the more you question that is the problem, you are never satisfied your egoistic nature which you cannot contain leads you to this. My friend, if everyone keeps asking no one would believe in anything from the supernatural to the normal. This was my point at the begining that society's demorilizastion is leading to its downfall, and no one has answered me on that or told me that i am right/not right. If we all prayed sincerely I would assure you that none of the natural disaters, events would happen, for example September 11 was prohepised by those who had NDE's and it happened. You don't see it we could have prevented it. We could pray and crops would grow. We are greater than nature. We could control it by prayer just like Jesus did in the Bible.I remember that there was a study as to whether prayer can help heal patients about to be operated on. There was no conclusive evidence that showed that it did, and there were A LOT of people praying.

As for the the asking questions bit, be glad that someone did, or you might still be paying tithes to the pope.

I want fall for your tricks, the best way to defend my religions is GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.

There is no trick, only deducible truth. If you want to believe a lie instead, you fall for the same tricks you refuse to advocate.

Hardly. Not everyone are fundamentalists or refuse to change how they percieve their religion.
I know several that are both secure in their faith and well adjusted to modern society.
Heh, to the point where hardline christians would call then "un-christian".

Exactly. Christianity has a very wide spectrum, it is just an extremely narrow spectrum that the mainstream Christianity versions fall into.

I want fall for your tricks, the best way to defend my religions is GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.


HAhahhahh including your sudeen loss of temper? Very Christian! No wait that is actualy very Christian. hehahhahhahhah

I want fall for your tricks, the best way to defend my religions is GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.Darn. He's on to us. Now we'll never be able to tempt him.

You asked for it.

First, I dont NEED to "put dirt" on your faith, your religion, or your God, becuase its already there.
Christianity is responsible for some of the worst attrocities ever done by mortal hands.

There is dirt on this new modern pervers society not on us.



Asking questions is the primary way humans learn anything.
To have blind faith is stupid, and even your own bible warns you of this.

Ideally, by asking yourself tough questions concerning your faith, it can become stronger, or, perhaps you may find there are questions that you dont have answers to, and neither will God.

ALWAYS question important things, to do otherwise is extremely dumb.

Yes asking questions is important but you ask them to trick me just like they did to Jesus.


Dont presume you know anything about me.

I was referring to the natural egositic human like we all are but some can contian it better than others.

So you advocate blind ignorance?

I advocate belief when you have substantial evidence not proof, we don't have scientific proof , but truckloads of evidence.

Total horsecrap.

You actually think that prayer alone would have stopped 9/11?
You think a few devotional candles was all it would have taken to stop Katrina?

How can you be so arrogant to think that maybe God didnt those things for a reason?

The reason was that we didn't pray and were living a pagan life.



I think your insane.

Thank you very much.

I want fall for your tricks, the best way to defend my religions is GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, GOD IS OMNIPRESENT AND GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING.


Sounds to me like youre trying to convince yourself.

I remember that there was a study as to whether prayer can help heal patients about to be operated on. There was no conclusive evidence that showed that it did, and there were A LOT of people praying.

As for the the asking questions bit, be glad that someone did, or you might still be paying tithes to the pope.

God doesn't respond us in scientific studies he responds us when we least expect not when we expect.

Maypole, was there any reason behind naming your nation Maypole?

(Since we seem to get the Username here from the names of our nation.)

Thank you very much.

Proof and evidence, are synonymous, moron. Hahaha.

We do not ask you questions to trick you, we ask you questions so you stop tricking yourself. We proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that catholicism in it's strictest sense is false, and then you just ignore it and call us liars and deceivers. IT IS CONCLUSIVE PROOF. It is conclusive so the only reasonable thing to do is accept it, instead of reverting to the opposite view.

Hardly. Not everyone are fundamentalists or refuse to change how they percieve their religion.
I know several that are both secure in their faith and well adjusted to modern society.
Heh, to the point where hardline christians would call then "un-christian".

I am not a fundamentilist. I have my defects like everyone else as you could see, I am a normal christian, i don't think that anyone who isn't christian will go to hell, but when i said that no one answerwed me, you choose only what suits you.

The reason was that we didn't pray and were living a pagan life.You know that Europe is much less focussed on prayer than the US and we didn't get hit by something of that size? If you've managed to convince yourself that 9/11 was divine punishment, you need some serious help.

God doesn't respond us in scientific studies he responds us when we least expect not when we expect.

Nobody expected results, because those running the tests did not believe, else would not create an opportunity for their belief to be debunked.

You know that Europe is much less focussed on prayer than the US and we didn't get hit by something of that size? If you've managed to convince yourself that 9/11 was divine punishment, you need some serious help.

i was referring to the world.

God doesn't respond us in scientific studies he responds us when we least expect not when we expect.Misses the point. If you claim you can make crops grow by praying, prove it. Claiming that coincidences are God's work isn't a viable platform for an argument.

Maypole, was there any reason behind naming your nation Maypole?

(Since we seem to get the Username here from the names of our nation.)

For the second time I NAMED my nation after a breadshop/grocer in my hometown which i go to often, don't try to find the needle in a haystack.

i was referring to the world.I blame George Bush for the negative repurcussions of 9/11 that traveled on to the rest of the world, not God. Dubya was making use of his free will.

Misses the point. If you claim you can make crops grow by praying, prove it. Claiming that coincidences are God's work isn't a viable platform for an argument.

That can only happen when we are living all a good christian life if you understood me correctly. God can do anything so why do you suppose he can't grow crops?

I blame George Bush for the negative repurcussions of 9/11 that traveled on to the rest of the world, not God. Dubya was making use of his free will.

DID I BLAME GOD, or don't you read my posts well enough, i blamed the whole world for its pagan lifestyle.

That can only happen when we are living all a good christian life if you understood me correctly. God can do anything so why do you suppose he can't grow crops?Actually, I don't assume he can't, I just assume he won't because isn't going to break his own rules.

Actually, I don't assume he can't, I just assume he won't because isn't going to break his own rules.

Than why is evryone here calling me insane for saying that?

There is dirt on this new modern pervers society not on us.


Wrong.

The Church is the same Church as it was then.
These days, instead of murdering people of different religious views, and stealing thier land, they cover up sexual abuse by thier priests.

Your hands are FAR from clean.


Yes asking questions is important but you ask them to trick me just like they did to Jesus.

Are you listening to yourself?

First you say that we shouldnt question, then when I show you thats totally wrong, now your saying its ok?

And as for "tricking" you....Im not "tricking" you, Im merely attempting to get you to think outside the box, and explore some other possibilities.

This isnt some kind of movie, where Im trying to get you to say something wrong and then pounce and yell "AH-HAH!"
This is a debate, and youre losing.

As for "tricking Jesus" maybe your reffering to when Pontius Pilate asked him directly "Are you the Son of God, are you the Messiah?"

Jesus wouldnt give him a strraight answer.

In essence, he denied it.

"YOU say that I am."

I advocate belief when you have substantial evidence not proof, we don't have scientific proof , but truckloads of evidence.

So you only advocate belief when you have evidence, eh?

Then you wouldnt mind showing me one small tiny piece of evidence, then would you?
Just one tiny piece of evidence.


The reason was that we didn't pray and were living a pagan life.

Hmm...since half the country is christian, I would say thats kinda silly to believe.

DID I BLAME GOD, or don't you read my posts well enough, i blamed the whole world for its pagan lifestyle.People being "pagan" will not cause planes to fly into scyscrapers, no matter how you twist it. You'd have a better case arguing that living under powerlines makes people poor.

Than why is evryone here calling me insane for saying that?Because you probably don't consider the natural laws as his rules.

I am not a fundamentilist. I have my defects like everyone else as you could see, I am a normal christian, i don't think that anyone who isn't christian will go to hell, but when i said that no one answerwed me, you choose only what suits you.
Based on the arguments you have presented here (which is the only basis I have for forming a picture about you), I'd say you're more of a hardline christian, but not a fundamentalist or litraery believer.

You have presented some calm, reasoned arguments, based on your beliefs (and some not so calm and reasoned), and seem willing to do some soul-searching (if mostly within the parameters of the bible).
You also seem very defensive about you religion (hardly surprising considering the barrage of questions, then again there are reasons for that) and seem to think that people argue with you only to discredit you and your faith.

The arguments of the atheists are not always very well presented (or polite) but I don't see them as deliberately trying to throw dirt on you and your religion (even when they do).
Rather the goal is to get you to question your beliefs, so you can grow in your faith.
Questioning you own faith (including God Himself) is an important part of both spiritual and personal growth, and this is mentioned on several places in the bible.

Remember, you are God's creation, not His creature.

Wrong.

The Church is the same Church as it was then.
These days, instead of murdering people of different religious views, and stealing thier land, they cover up sexual abuse by thier priests.

Your hands are FAR from clean.

First of all you , there are only a few priests like that and they will be Judged by God, secondly before in the church again if you read books compared with other goverment institiutions the CHurch was lenient in its punishments and thats why many offenders chose the church court instead of a goverment one.

Are you listening to yourself?

First you say that we shouldnt question, then when I show you thats totally wrong, now your saying its ok?

And as for "tricking" you....Im not "tricking" you, Im merely attempting to get you to think outside the box, and explore some other possibilities.

This isnt some kind of movie, where Im trying to get you to say something wrong and then pounce and yell "AH-HAH!"
This is a debate, and youre losing.

As for "tricking Jesus" maybe your reffering to when Pontius Pilate asked him directly "Are you the Son of God, are you the Messiah?"

Jesus wouldnt give him a strraight answer.

In essence, he denied it.

"YOU say that I am."

I didn't change my view i just clarified it.

So you only advocate belief when you have evidence, eh?

Then you wouldnt mind showing me one small tiny piece of evidence, then would you?
Just one tiny piece of evidence.

Have shown you loads of evidence in the past posts, but your tiny little mind can't seem to compress it, can it?
Hmm...since half the country is christian, I would say thats kinda silly to believe.

They are only christians of the name, the number of REAL CHRISTIANS is on the decrease unfortuneatley.
If it wasn'y for the prayers of some of these real christians we would be in a horrific state. By the Way Hell begins on earth, and you may not realise it.

For the second time I NAMED my nation after a breadshop/grocer in my hometown which i go to often, don't try to find the needle in a haystack.
Oh, so that was what the grocery store thing was refering to. I didn't catch that last time.
Thanks for clearing that up. :)

For the second time I NAMED my nation after a breadshop/grocer in my hometown which i go to often, don't try to find the needle in a haystack.


Hehe it is odd that though innit, a Catholic haveing the name of a well know Pagan implement huh, and a phalic one at that!?

DID I BLAME GOD, or don't you read my posts well enough, i blamed the whole world for its pagan lifestyle.
Hmm, pagan I might be, but I can't say I feel very responsible for 9/11...

Hehe it is odd that though innit, a Catholic haveing the name of a well know Pagan implement huh, and a phalic one at that!?

First of all i didn't know this damned greek goddes existed so shut the hell up you bunch of hypocrites.

DID I BLAME GOD, or don't you read my posts well enough, i blamed the whole world for its pagan lifestyle.


Heh and thats also quite funny, of the many Pagans I know and the many Christians I know the Pagans are by far the better people, not only better adjusted but more umm Christian in the way in which they act towards others.

If it wasn'y for the prayers of some of these real christians we would be in a horrific state. Prove it.

Hehe it is odd that though innit, a Catholic haveing the name of a well know Pagan implement huh, and a phalic one at that!?
God works in mysterious ways.

Heh and thats also quite funny, of the many Pagans I know and the many Christians I know the Pagans are by far the better people, not only better adjusted but more umm Christian in the way in which they act towards others.

You all of you have been barraging me with questions, traps, insults, everything you can name to the piont of severe frustration and i cant' lose my temper!Get a life!

Prove it.

There is nothing to prove, see around you and see how we have become.

There is nothing to prove, see around you and see how we have become.A lot better off than when Christianity was still widespread? Dang, if paganism is to blame for things like electricity and the airplane, bring it on!

They are only christians of the name, the number of REAL CHRISTIANS is on the decrease unfortuneatley.
If it wasn'y for the prayers of some of these real christians we would be in a horrific state. By the Way Hell begins on earth, and you may not realise it.

Youre babbling.


First of all you , there are only a few priests like that and they will be Judged by God, secondly before in the church again if you read books compared with other goverment institiutions the CHurch was lenient in its punishments and thats why many offenders chose the church court instead of a goverment one.

A few huh?

Then why do the number of molested children number in the thousands?

I didn't change my view i just clarified it.

Incorrect.
First you spoke against questioning, and now you say its ok.

Have shown you loads of evidence in the past posts, but your tiny little mind can't seem to compress it, can it?

First of all, "True Christian", insulting others isnt allowed on this forum, nor is it helping you to sound like you know what your talking about.
Insults are a trademark of the weak-willed.

Secondly,
You havent shown any kind of any evidence, about anything at all.
Dont believe me?
Ask the other posters here.......folks...what "evidence" has this person shown..about ANYTHING AT ALL?

Nothing.

So...since you base your faith so heavily on evidence..Im still waiting for some.

There is nothing to prove, see around you and see how we have become.

Like you said first post here, morality has degenerated and the world is a worse place. Your beloved prayers did little.

On another note, after you branded everyone a hypocrite for pointing out your name, do you know what a hypocrite IS?

A lot better off than when Christianity was still widespread? Dang, if paganism is to blame for things like electricity and the airplane, bring it on!

I was talking on a social, moral standing not on a technoligical stance.Get it?

Like you said first post here, morality has degenerated and the world is a worse place. Your beloved prayers did little.

On another note, after you branded everyone a hypocrite for pointing out your name, do you know what a hypocrite IS?

Yeah someone who contradicts what he says, maybe I was runnig out of nice titles instead of begin offending some people here like they have done to me.

First of all i didn't know this damned greek goddes existed so shut the hell up you bunch of hypocrites.

Hey I'm not a hypocrite, please show me where I was? And secondly geeeez so touchey, hehe okay my fault I admit I was doing it on purpose, I admit I have issues with the Cristian faith, and I applogise for taking it all out on you. But turn the other cheeck surly?:rolleyes:

Hey I'm not a hypocrite, please show me where I was? And secondly geeeez so touchey, hehe okay my fault I admit I was doing it on purpose, I admit I have issues with the Cristian faith, and I applogise for taking it all out on you. But turn the other cheeck surly?:rolleyes:

I Called you hypocrite just because i was frustrated and didn't want to use harsher language as i am trying to keep calm.

I was talking on a social, moral standing not on a technoligical stance.Get it?Of course you were. Because terror attacks are purely social or moral phenomena.

Clarify what you wanted to say: This started off with us discussing about how you claim we'd be much worse off if it weren't for "real christians" praying. What would be worse? How have things been better when there were more "real christians" around?

I was talking on a social, moral standing not on a technoligical stance.Get it?

Did you know...that John Ashcroft uses no electrical equipment on Sundays?

I Called you hypocrite just because i was frustrated and didn't want to use harsher language as i am trying to keep calm.

Fair doo's but I was being a ****, you should have called me one.:D

Did you know...that John Ashcroft uses no electrical equipment on Sundays?


Hes also the guy who covered up "Blind Justice" , becuase it has an exsposed titty.

What a loon.

Youre babbling.



A few huh?

Then why do the number of molested children number in the thousands?

In the U.S not in Malta, Malta is a Roman Catholic country were religion isn't a hobby, it is taken seriously by most.

Incorrect.
First you spoke against questioning, and now you say its ok.

You contradicted me again.
First of all, "True Christian", insulting others isnt allowed on this forum, nor is it helping you to sound like you know what your talking about.
Insults are a trademark of the weak-willed.

Secondly,
You havent shown any kind of any evidence, about anything at all.
Dont believe me?
Ask the other posters here.......folks...what "evidence" has this person shown..about ANYTHING AT ALL?

Nothing.

So...since you base your faith so heavily on evidence..Im still waiting for some.

Don't worry in 30 years time and less you will have some strong evidence that will shock you to the toes.

Ask the other posters here.......folks...what "evidence" has this person shown..about ANYTHING AT ALL?

Nothing.

So...since you base your faith so heavily on evidence..Im still waiting for some.
He cited the miracles of this place as part of the proof:

http://www.medjugorje-online.com/new_millenium.php
and
http://www.medjugorje.org/

Don't worry in 30 years time and less you will have some strong evidence that will shock you to the toes.

Do you realize your making no sense at all?

In the U.S not in Malta, Malta is a Roman Catholic country were religion isn't a hobby, it is taken seriously by most.

What the hell does Malta have to do with thousands of molested children?

Why wont you answer any of my querstions?

Are you giving up and admitting defeat?

Of course you were. Because terror attacks are purely social or moral phenomena.

Clarify what you wanted to say: This started off with us discussing about how you claim we'd be much worse off if it weren't for "real christians" praying. What would be worse? How have things been better when there were more "real christians" around?


Thats the problem there have never been enough of them, before altought there were man priests nuns etc. christians, they coudn't be not christians, inquisition an example, but that was in the whole medieval world not in the church only as they say.

Hes also the guy who covered up "Blind Justice" , becuase it has an exsposed titty.

What a loon.

I like him, my windows' start up sound is the chorus of 'let the eagle soar', but that's a different story.

Thats the problem there have never been enough of them, before altought there were man priests nuns etc. christians, they coudn't be not christians, inquisition an example, but that was in the whole medieval world not in the church only as they say.Then how can we be degenerating if we were off worse before?

Did you know...that John Ashcroft uses no electrical equipment on Sundays?
Actually, besides his reasons and focus on a particular day, that's not a bad idea.
Take a day in the week when youwon't use electricity.
It's quite the food for though when you notice how much we rely on electricity.

It's also wise to learn how to make do without it, and get some equipment for it (get camping equipment and you can have a use for it when hiking as well as in emergencies ;))

He cited the miracles of this place as part of the proof:

http://www.medjugorje-online.com/new_millenium.php
and
http://www.medjugorje.org/


So, were supposed to believe some bogus "Lady of Fatima" sightings?

These may not be real....this isnt evidence of anything.

I like him, my windows' start up sound is the chorus of 'let the eagle soar', but that's a different story.

and you also like his singing huh?

Heh, you are crazy.

Do you realize your making no sense at all?



What the hell does Malta have to do with thousands of molested children?

Why wont you answer any of my querstions?

Are you giving up and admitting defeat?

I answered all your questions and NO I AM NOT ADMITTING DEFEAT. Well the U.S. has become corrupted, God gave it the chance to be an example to the world and it has losts its way, so the U.S. relativley isn't a real chrisitan country. Malta though is so I was just showing you that when there is Roman Cathlic church where there are real christian in good numbers things like these rarley happen.
It is very easy for me to give up because unllike you I have been posting for more than 4 hours on thsi topic so i am damned tired you backstabbing person.

Did you know that...........

60% of the American population say that religion plays a very important part of their lives.

100% of born again Christians believe Jesus died for their sins.

58.7% believe that the world will end in a battle between Jesus and Satan.

40.9% think that the Constitution should be changed to make America a Christian nation.

SOURCE: Gallup poll, cited in many publications.

and you also like his singing huh?

Heh, you are crazy.

An intoxicating baritone...:D

Then how can we be degenerating if we were off worse before?

Moralisticly, there are fewer believers and more atheists, at least before they believe din God.

So, were supposed to believe some bogus "Lady of Fatima" sightings?

These may not be real....this isnt evidence of anything.
On the contrary. It is proof, if you believe in it.

It can't be proven empirically, that is true.

However, it is also true that those who believe in these visions/sightings act as they are true, and as such they are true for them.
It works because truth is a subjective thing, especially when it comes to faith.

*shrugs* I don't believe in them either, but that doesn't mean it's not true for others.

Moralisticly, there are fewer believers and more atheists, at least before they believe din God.Quit avoiding the questions:
What would be better if more real christians were around?
What was better when there were more real christians around?
When would that have been?

Moralisticly, there are fewer believers and more atheists, at least before they believe din God.
Er, you don't know much about the medieval age, do you?
The world was bigger than europe then too... nor was all of europe christian either, and a lot of the lower classes kept their old beliefs and rituals and were Christians at the same time.

Not to mention that the Catholic Mass is a direct ripoff of the High Cermony of the Mithras worship.

Er, you don't know much about the medieval age, do you?
The world was bigger than europe then too... nor was all of europe christian either, and a lot of the lower classes kept their old beliefs and rituals and were Christians at the same time.

Not to mention that the Catholic Mass is a direct ripoff of the High Cermony of the Mithras worship.


Heh yeah them Catholics, robbing bastards!

Quit avoiding the questions:
What would be better if more real christians were around?
What was better when there were more real christians around?
When would that have been?

First of all you avoid the fact that God does Exist.

(1.)If more real christian were around there would be peace and harmony. We would be satisfied with the least of stuff since God would reward us. We would have a more closer relationship with God. We would be able to totally supress our egoistic human nature. We would give and give and give and be much more religious. Nature would frolic as it was before untrodden by human feet, natural disaters could be controlled by prayer and so the crops.

(2.)There were never enough real Christians as stated before, so your 2nd and 3rd questions have already been answered.

*If I didn't beleive fully and knew that God exists and also my religion, I woudn't have posted some 90 times you know. Just keep it in mind.*

I answered all your questions and NO I AM NOT ADMITTING DEFEAT.

You have answered NONE of them, and instead, started ranting about Malta.



Well the U.S. has become corrupted, God gave it the chance to be an example to the world and it has losts its way, so the U.S. relativley isn't a real chrisitan country.

This is probably the most arrogant thing Ive ever heard.
Who the hell are you to decide that millions of American Christians "arent real christians"?

"Judge not, lest ye be Judged."





Malta though is so I was just showing you that when there is Roman Cathlic church where there are real christian in good numbers things like these rarley happen.

Understand this:

The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the sexual abuse of THOUSANDS of children, and the cover-up of those incidences, and the refusal to do antything about it.

This isnt "rare".
If Thousands of people report abuse, then thousands of priests are doing it.



It is very easy for me to give up because unllike you I have been posting for more than 4 hours on thsi topic so i am damned tired you backstabbing person.

You really arent very good at this are you?

You really arent making sense anymore, and should probably just stop.

Backstabbing person?

WTF?

What in the bloody hell are you talking about?

First of all you avoid the fact that God does Exist.

Its not a fact, if you cant prove it.

(

Er, you don't know much about the medieval age, do you?
The world was bigger than europe then too... nor was all of europe christian either, and a lot of the lower classes kept their old beliefs and rituals and were Christians at the same time.

Not to mention that the Catholic Mass is a direct ripoff of the High Cermony of the Mithras worship.


Thats a lie The christian mass was formed from the last supper, I don't think that in the mitras whatever they gave the HOLY HOST which Is literaly Jesus's Body and the WIne his blood.

Did you know that...........

60% of the American population say that religion plays a very important part of their lives.

100% of born again Christians believe Jesus died for their sins.

58.7% believe that the world will end in a battle between Jesus and Satan.

40.9% think that the Constitution should be changed to make America a Christian nation.

SOURCE: Gallup poll, cited in many publications.

Yah, 51% of the nation voted for Bush....look how that went for them.

Thats a lie The christian mass was formed from the last supper, I don't think that in the mitras whatever they gave the HOLY HOST which Is literaly Jesus's Body and the WIne his blood.


the events during a mass, are almost the same ritual used in the Mitras ceremony, wich pre-dates Christianity.

Same for the Christmas tree.

Easter eggs.

Mistletoe....

All taken from pagan religions to make conversion to Christianity, easier to swallow for natives.

Read a book.

You have answered NONE of them, and instead, started ranting about Malta.





This is probably the most arrogant thing Ive ever heard.
Who the hell are you to decide that millions of American Christians "arent real christians"?

"Judge not, lest ye be Judged."







Understand this:

The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the sexual abuse of THOUSANDS of children, and the cover-up of those incidences, and the refusal to do antything about it.

This isnt "rare".
If Thousands of people report abuse, then thousands of priests are doing it.





You really arent very good at this are you?

You really arent making sense anymore, and should probably just stop.

Backstabbing person?

WTF?

What in the bloody hell are you talking about?

YOU ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGING ME ALL THE TIME HURLING QUESTIONS INTENDED TO MAKE YOURSELVES FEEL SAFE, ABUSES, INSULTS, JUDGING ME CRAZY, INSANE AND I DID NOT JUDGE THE AMERICANS. I SAID THAT FROM THE FACT HOW SOCIETY IS NOWADAYS ALWAYS LIBERAL, SURELY IF MORE THAN HALF THE NATION AGREES WITH ABORTION THEY CAN'T BE CALLED RELIGIOUS OR GOOD CHRISTIANS. AND IT IS YOU WHO IS RANTING WITH DECIETFUL LIES ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS PRIESTS. SO I TELL YOU " WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE CHURCH AND GOD" NOT YOU , YOU LYING ATHEIST BASTARD.

Its not a fact, if you cant prove it.

(

As I said once earlier....God does exist and the proof is all around you if you have the eyes to see the proof. As Jesus himself stated "Blessed are those who have not seen but yet believe"

God is real B.S.

As I said once earlier....God does exist and the proof is all around you if you have the eyes to see the proof. As Jesus himself stated "Blessed are those who have not seen but yet believe"

God is real B.S.

Finally need some backup here, have been barraged too much now.

YOU ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGING ME ALL THE TIME HURLING QUESTIONS INTENDED TO MAKE YOURSELVES FEEL SAFE, ABUSES, INSULTS, JUDGING ME CRAZY, INSANE AND I DID NOT JUDGE THE AMERICANS. I SAID THAT FROM THE FACT HOW SOCIETY IS NOWADAYS ALWAYS LIBERAL, SURELY IF MORE THAN HALF THE NATION AGREES WITH ABORTION THEY CAN'T BE CALLED RELIGIOUS OR GOOD CHRISTIANS. AND IT IS YOU WHO IS RANTING WITH DECIETFUL LIES ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS PRIESTS. SO I TELL YOU " WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE CHURCH AND GOD" NOT YOU , YOU LYING ATHEIST BASTARD.


Now, youre breaking forum rules and flaming me.

I'll give you the opportunity to apologize, before I report it.

Understand this:

The Roman Catholic Church is responsible for the sexual abuse of THOUSANDS of children, and the cover-up of those incidences, and the refusal to do antything about it.

This isnt "rare".
If Thousands of people report abuse, then thousands of priests are doing it.
The condemnable part here is of course the molestations, and the church trying to cover it up.
However, lets be fair, we can't condemn the whole church as childmolesters just because a small percentage are commiting vile crimes.

That would be like blaming all men for being rapists of women, and the police and courts for protecting the men, and you know what ridicule the hardline feminists get when they trot out that argument.

The crimes should be dealt with, harshly, honestly and openly, but we should not condemn all priests for what a few do.
If we do, the we're casting the first stone.

Now, youre breaking forum rules and flaming me.

I'll give you the opportunity to apologize, before I report it.

If you tell me where I have insulted you,I will happily apologise to you.
So please tell me, seriously now.

As I said once earlier....God does exist and the proof is all around you if you have the eyes to see the proof. As Jesus himself stated "Blessed are those who have not seen but yet believe"

God is real B.S.


No, that just a way of saying "God is all around you, if you convince yourself he is."

What convinced you?

YOU ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGING ME ALL THE TIME HURLING QUESTIONS INTENDED TO MAKE YOURSELVES FEEL SAFE, ABUSES, INSULTS, JUDGING ME CRAZY, INSANE AND I DID NOT JUDGE THE AMERICANS. I SAID THAT FROM THE FACT HOW SOCIETY IS NOWADAYS ALWAYS LIBERAL, SURELY IF MORE THAN HALF THE NATION AGREES WITH ABORTION THEY CAN'T BE CALLED RELIGIOUS OR GOOD CHRISTIANS. AND IT IS YOU WHO IS RANTING WITH DECIETFUL LIES ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ITS PRIESTS. SO I TELL YOU " WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE CHURCH AND GOD" NOT YOU , YOU LYING ATHEIST BASTARD.

Ya know... you have just violated one of the basic tenets of the Christian Belief. That is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

There is no need to shout either. I woke up with a headache this morning. What i suggest is for you to come down out of the rafters. From one Christian brother to another, your not going to win many friends in this thread because of our beliefs.

Its not a fact, if you cant prove it.

(


I'm gonna have to back Maypole up now.

God does exist, I also know this to be true.

It's not a fact if you can't prove it?

Thats not exatly true, I have already posted about how all proofs are ultimatley subjective(even Descartes knew this) so in essance no 'fact' can be proven so if you decided that one subjective truth is actualy true, then each subjective truth is as valid as the next. I.E. just because we can't prove to you that God exists does not mean that our personal subjective proof is invalid.

If you tell me where I have insulted you,I will happily apologise to you.
So please tell me, seriously now.


WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO JUDGE THE CHURCH AND GOD" NOT YOU , YOU LYING ATHEIST BASTARD.

Somewhere in there.

Somewhere in there.

I apologise, but if we come in that state I should report some hal a dozen here for thier constant badgering and insults agianst me.

I'm gonna have to back Maypole up now.

God does exist, I also know this to be true.

It's not a fact if you can't prove it?

Thats not exatly true, I have already posted about how all proofs are ultimatley subjective(even Descartes knew this) so in essance no 'fact' can be proven so if you decided that one subjective truth is actualy true, then each subjective truth is as valid as the next. I.E. just because we can't prove to you that God exists does not mean that our personal subjective proof is invalid.


You cant say "Its a fact that God exists" if you have absolutely nothing to back this up.
You CAN say "I BELIEVE God exists."

Belief is not fact.

Did you know that...........

60% of the American population say that religion plays a very important part of their lives.

100% of born again Christians believe Jesus died for their sins.

58.7% believe that the world will end in a battle between Jesus and Satan.

40.9% think that the Constitution should be changed to make America a Christian nation.

SOURCE: Gallup poll, cited in many publications.

I would love to see the source of this.

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.

What makes you so sure this God you speak of perhaps being true is a she?

I used to believe in God, but now I only believe in him for the good things...so, I really don't know right now, I can't answer your question... people get angry at me because when bad things happen to me, I say "god hates me" or "there is no god" but with all those personalities up in the noggin, I can't really be sure anymore...

Ya know... you have just violated one of the basic tenets of the Christian Belief. That is to love our neighbors as ourselves.

There is no need to shout either. I woke up with a headache this morning. What i suggest is for you to come down out of the rafters. From one Christian brother to another, your not going to win many friends in this thread because of our beliefs.


As you know though we are all humans and we get angry some times.
Well if you read the thread(from pg333) i have doing my utmost to keep calm but yuo can't stand the insults for that long can you if you are not perfect.

I apologise, but if we come in that state I should report some hal a dozen here for thier constant badgering and insults agianst me.


No one swore at you, or called you a liar, and a backstabber, or a bastard.

You did all of those things, oh-so compassionate "True" Christian.

I'm gonna have to back Maypole up now.

God does exist, I also know this to be true.

It's not a fact if you can't prove it?

Thats not exatly true, I have already posted about how all proofs are ultimatley subjective(even Descartes knew this) so in essance no 'fact' can be proven so if you decided that one subjective truth is actualy true, then each subjective truth is as valid as the next. I.E. just because we can't prove to you that God exists does not mean that our personal subjective proof is invalid.

A valid point that I raised yesterday. The only thing certain, as pointed out in the cogito, is the knowledge of the thinker that there is an existence of the self in a form that cannot be determined.

However, what we accept to be true should be based instead on principles of justification, such as coherentism. As the Bible cannot even cohere with itself, containing many paradoxes and contradictions, and is becoming increasingly under fire due to lack of coherence with what is generally regarded to be the truth (the likeliest option), it is becoming disregarded as a source. I personally believe this is right. there is still a chance the Bible is right, but it's slim. Science did not make the Bible wrong, just pointed out it's less likely to be right.

No one swore at you, or called you a liar, and a backstabber, or a bastard.

You did all of those things, oh-so compassionate "True" Christian.

Oh, no really than I must be blind, you know just a few examples
: Ignorant,stupid,cow-bigot,bigot,insane, mad,

As you know though we are all humans and we get angry some times.
Well if you read the thread(from pg333) i have doing my utmost to keep calm but yuo can't stand the insults for that long can you if you are not perfect.

If ya looked through the thread maypole, you would notice the fact that i have been in this thread from the beginning. I woke up this morning I was on page 323 and I saw that we were in the 360s. Do you honestly think, I'm going to thumb through 40pgs?

Thats a lie The christian mass was formed from the last supper, I don't think that in the mitras whatever they gave the HOLY HOST which Is literaly Jesus's Body and the WIne his blood.
It was formed around the last supper yes, but not only the last supper.

http://www.sxws.com/charis/apol8.htm

Mithra and the Twelve

The theme of the teaching god and "the Twelve" is found within Mithraism, as Mithra is depicted surrounded by the 12 zodiac signs on a number of monuments and in the writings of Porphyry, for one. Regarding the Twelve, Robertson says:

On Mithraic monuments we find representations of twelve episodes, probably corresponding to the twelve labors in the stories of Heracles, Samson and other Sun-heroes, and probably also connected with initiation.

As they have been in the case of numerous sun gods, these signs could be called Mithra's 12 "companions" or "disciples." Indeed, concerning Mithra and the Twelve, Freke and Gandy say:

During the initiation ceremony in the Mysteries of Mithras, 12 disciples surrounded the godman, just as the 12 disciples surrounded Jesus.

Again, they state:

In the Mysteries of Mithras, as already mentioned, the initiated representing Mithras stood in the middle of a circle of 12 dancers representing the signs of the zodiac.

Furthermore, the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a "last supper" is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism:

[Mark] gave Jesus a last supper with twelve followers, identical in every way with the last supper of the Persian god Mithra, down to the cannibalisation of the god's body in the form of bread and wine (14:22-26).

The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundred years before Jesus.

This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, "Agis and Kleomenes" 37:2-3.

Obviously, the Last Supper with the Twelve predates Christianity by centuries. It would therefore be a mistake to contend that Mithraism copied Christianity, rather than inheriting this motif from earlier Pagan religions.

Link to whole text:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_4.htm

and that is just two sources... I can provide more should you wish to listen.



However, don't take this the wrong way. This is in no way to attack your religion. Indeed, it is a compliment to it, that it was willing to absorb and make others traditions its own, rather than destroy them (that's partly why Christianity was so succesful. Encompassing instead of destroying).

Your religion isn't attacked with this informations, it merely grows.

If ya looked through the thread maypole, you would notice the fact that i have been in this thread from the beginning. I woke up this morning I was on page 323 and I saw that we were in the 360s. Do you honestly think, I'm going to thumb through 40pgs?

No, that wasn't what i meant, of course not, i just told you that in these 30 pages or so i have been constantly offended and frustrated, and i praise your efforts to defend our religion, one of the few it seems in this thread.

Ya know... you have just violated one of the basic tenets of the Christian Belief. That is to love our neighbors as ourselves.


Oh! Oh! She(he?) violated THREE in the same asshole comment!!!!

Forgiveness! Love! Equality! Any of those ring a bell captain I'm so Christian!

I would love to see the source of this.

The Economist, 4th November 2004, but I got it from Barbara Victor's 'The Last Crusade' examining Christianity in American politics.

You did all of those things, oh-so compassionate "True" Christian.

I think this is what Maypole is referring to.

It was formed around the last supper yes, but not only the last supper.

http://www.sxws.com/charis/apol8.htm

Mithra and the Twelve

The theme of the teaching god and "the Twelve" is found within Mithraism, as Mithra is depicted surrounded by the 12 zodiac signs on a number of monuments and in the writings of Porphyry, for one. Regarding the Twelve, Robertson says:

On Mithraic monuments we find representations of twelve episodes, probably corresponding to the twelve labors in the stories of Heracles, Samson and other Sun-heroes, and probably also connected with initiation.

As they have been in the case of numerous sun gods, these signs could be called Mithra's 12 "companions" or "disciples." Indeed, concerning Mithra and the Twelve, Freke and Gandy say:

During the initiation ceremony in the Mysteries of Mithras, 12 disciples surrounded the godman, just as the 12 disciples surrounded Jesus.

Again, they state:

In the Mysteries of Mithras, as already mentioned, the initiated representing Mithras stood in the middle of a circle of 12 dancers representing the signs of the zodiac.

Furthermore, the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a "last supper" is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism:

[Mark] gave Jesus a last supper with twelve followers, identical in every way with the last supper of the Persian god Mithra, down to the cannibalisation of the god's body in the form of bread and wine (14:22-26).

The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundred years before Jesus.

This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, "Agis and Kleomenes" 37:2-3.

Obviously, the Last Supper with the Twelve predates Christianity by centuries. It would therefore be a mistake to contend that Mithraism copied Christianity, rather than inheriting this motif from earlier Pagan religions.

Link to whole text:
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_4.htm

and that is just two sources... I can provide more should you wish to listen.



However, don't take this the wrong way. This is in no way to attack your religion. Indeed, it is a compliment to it, that it was willing to absorb and make others traditions its own, rather than destroy them (that's partly why Christianity was so succesful. Encompassing instead of destroying).

Your religion isn't attacked with this informations, it merely grows.

No offense taken at all, but that is the ceromanial structure not the spiritual structure of the mass, get my point?

Oh, no really than I must be blind, you know just a few examples
: Ignorant,stupid,cow-bigot,bigot,insane, mad,

None of those are swearing, accusations of parents not being in wedlock during conception etc.

Oh, no really than I must be blind, you know just a few examples
: Ignorant,stupid,cow-bigot,bigot,insane, mad,


I called you insane, but thats becuase you said prayer would have stopped Katrina.

You resorted to nasty name calling before anyone.

Funny, isnt it, when the athiest turns the other cheek, and not the Christian.

You cant say "Its a fact that God exists" if you have absolutely nothing to back this up.
You CAN say "I BELIEVE God exists."

Belief is not fact.

Heh so define fact for me?

Oh! Oh! She(he?) violated THREE in the same asshole comment!!!!

Forgiveness! Love! Equality! Any of those ring a bell captain I'm so Christian!

First of all i am a he, and i din't break anything the only thing i broke was my head with thes constant questions.

actually it has everything to do with what you said.

To refresh your memory…

and to which I replied that he did. With the sacrifice of Jesus, many rituals and burnt offerings were no longer needed. To be forgiven of your sins, all you now need to do is pray and ask.


Which STILL has nothing to do with the 'entry requirements for hell', and everything to do with the 'entry requirements for heaven' or the methodologies of spiritual and physical cleanliness on earth.

The requirement for hell has remained the same since the beginning.


you choose when you get up to start you day, you choose what classes to take in College, you can even choose to have others make choices for you. You can choose to test God, and you can choose to interpret anything you want anyway you want. You can choose to see the evils in the world as proof of lack of God or you can choose to see those evils as something to stand against. When it comes down to it, it’s nothing but choice. You say you lost your faith, Faith cannot be taken from you unless you CHOOSE to release your faith.


Actually - I didn't choose to start my day, today... my baby boy woke me up with his wonderfully developed lungs.

I'm not sure where you are going with the whole 'evils of the world' thing... since, I have repeatedly said that it was NOT an 'external' pressure that 'convinced' me to lose my faith... it was an 'internal' loss. I just gradually stopped believing.

You say 'nothing but choice'... I say you are talking out of your arse. You say faith cannot be taken without choice, I say you are either misguided, or being deliberately deceptive.


I chose to close my mind and heart to God, but I also chose to reopen them.


Well, I'm glad that worked for you. I, on the othe hand, did NOT choose. So - no parallel between our experiences, I guess.

I wonder what the vested interest is that stops you being able to admit there might be more than one road...


and when have I ever said “The Bible Alone” is all you need? Read though my posts and you won’t find any instance where I said all you need is “The Bible.”


I didn't say that, either... If you re-read it, you'll see I'm not saying you need 'the bible alone'... I'm saying why should one believe the bible, alone among all scriptures.


He created a beautiful system where we, his creations, are free to choose our life. We can choose to attempt the path to be with Him, or we can choose to turn our backs on Him. Both goals are known and are interpreted in many ways. However, the ultimate choice is still on us.


You sound like those people who praise the 'wonderful American health system', even while it bankrupts them.


and as I said, you already made your choice. I am not judging you on your choice for as you said, I do not know you, nor do I know what you went through. I am only telling you that the choice is there and it can be so easily made, that most are not aware they made it.

And, I'm telling you that you are wrong, plain and simple.

No one swore at you, or called you a liar, and a backstabber, or a bastard.

You did all of those things, oh-so compassionate "True" Christian.
Actually, he's been called both liar and stupid.

With some reason, true, but still.

There's never one side in a conflict.

Funny, isnt it, when the athiest turns the other cheek, and not the Christian.

OH BURN!!!

I called you insane, but thats becuase you said prayer would have stopped Katrina.

You resorted to nasty name calling before anyone.

Funny, isnt it, when the athiest turns the other cheek, and not the Christian.

And its true if we joined as one in Christ and in GOD we can prevent these.
And for the millionth,zillionth time I was heavily provoked and am human.and always apoligised afterwards.

Could you please start a separate thread for this argument?

I dunno about that stance Grave... while he does hold you dear, you can reject Him and kick him out of your life. you can take your judgement/opinions and hold them higher than God's and that would be a grave offense.

(not saying you did, but being accepted and Baptised/Reborn/Forgiven does not mean you get a "Blank Check" on sinning.)

Yes - it does. Scripturally.

You aren't arguing with me on this, you are arguing with "I AM".

Heh so define fact for me?


fact
( P ) Pronunciation Key (fkt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.


Notice if you will...God applies to none of these.

Could you please start a separate thread for this argument?

Which argument?

A valid point that I raised yesterday. The only thing certain, as pointed out in the cogito, is the knowledge of the thinker that there is an existence of the self in a form that cannot be determined.

However, what we accept to be true should be based instead on principles of justification, such as coherentism. As the Bible cannot even cohere with itself, containing many paradoxes and contradictions, and is becoming increasingly under fire due to lack of coherence with what is generally regarded to be the truth (the likeliest option), it is becoming disregarded as a source. I personally believe this is right. there is still a chance the Bible is right, but it's slim. Science did not make the Bible wrong, just pointed out it's less likely to be right.


I totaly agree, as I have said the Bible does not prove to me Gods existance, I am not a Christian.

That God is I have no doubt, it was not the Bible that convinced me of this. The Bible has convinced me though that the Christian concept of God cannot be right.

No offense taken at all, but that is the ceromanial structure not the spiritual structure of the mass, get my point?
Hmm, yes. You might have a point there.
I'm not as familiar with the spiritual structure as with the purely material one.

However, the transmutation (bread and wine to flesh and blood) is the same in both cermonies.

Hahahahaha!! *FLORT*
*shades of Colbert*

Shades of Colbert, via Bottle, I believe... from whom I am stealing the 'script-writing' kudos. :)

And its true if we joined as one in Christ and in GOD we can prevent these.
And for the millionth,zillionth time I was heavily provoked and am human.and always apoligised afterwards.

1. You sent the first insults forth.
2. Jesus was human and rose above it, at lest your teachings claim.
3. You stated that you refused to apologise to me in the post you apologised to everyone. You explicitly mentioned this, becuse I gave you back better than you gave.
4. Oh, still waiting for a decent argument regarding the paradox with the Catholic definition of hell and the characteristic of Omnipresence.

No, that wasn't what i meant, of course not, i just told you that in these 30 pages or so i have been constantly offended and frustrated, and i praise your efforts to defend our religion, one of the few it seems in this thread.

relax. I've been at this since this thread started. Same to me but we are to endure it because our Lord Savior also endured suffering.

1. You sent the first insults forth.
2. Jesus was human and rose above it, at lest your teachings claim.
3. You stated that you refused to apologise to me in the post you apologised to everyone. You explicitly mentioned this, becuse I gave you back better than you gave.
4. Oh, still waiting for a decent argument regarding the paradox with the Catholic definition of hell and the characteristic of Omnipresence.

First of all I am not the Son of God. Secondly I dindn't because you had to apoligise not me but for peace's sake I apoplogise if i ever offended you. I have already answered that question many times but you still can't understand me. Maybe you detest me thats why you don't understan, ask Cornelius instead maybe he'll answer it better than I did.

I think this is what Maypole is referring to.


Are you saying you dont see the raw hippocracy of him calling himself a "true christian", and saying that millions of american christians are not "true" christians, all the while, calling me a lying ,backstabbing, athiest bastard?

Cuz I sure did, and called him on it.

First of all I am not the Son of God. Secondly I dindn't because you had to apoligise not me but for peace's sake I apoplogise if i ever offended you. I have already answered that question many times but you still can't understand me. Maybe you detest me thats why you don't understan, ask Cornelius instead maybe he'll answer it better than I did.

I do detest you, but that is not why. Your response is that 'you know God is right', which has no bearing on the paradox in question. God cannot be omnipresent and absent from Hell simultaneously, and a temporary suspension of one of these premises invalidates them as a whole.

First of all I am not the Son of God. Secondly I dindn't because you had to apoligise not me but for peace's sake I apoplogise if i ever offended you. I have already answered that question many times but you still can't understand me. Maybe you detest me thats why you don't understan, ask Cornelius instead maybe he'll answer it better than I did.

No do not ask me for i am not a catholic.

Straughn, to be fair, maypole's first point is fact, the probability of the universe being as it is is remarkably slim. However, this does NOT take in to account the repeated cycle of big bangs and big crunches that may span back to infinite regress which makes it considerably more likely.

No. We are discussing an historical event... thus, the 'probability' of the universe beaing 'as it is' is 100% (1:1, 'a sure thing').

If it had NOT been 'as it is', the scenario in which this calculation was made (if there even WAS anyone to make that calculation) would have been different, but still 100% probable.