NationStates Jolt Archive

because if "we" hadnt disobeyed god back in the garden of eden we would still be living in paradise and no bad thing would ever happen to us. its all our OWN fault for falling into god's trap --telling people will no knowlege of good and bad that they can do ANNNNNYYYTHIIIING they want but they better not eat that apple!. youd think that an all knowing being would know how "reverse psychology" works.

its not a mater of fault. god set up an imperfect world. bad things happen to everyone regardless of their behavior or beliefs. god doesnt give his followers a pain free life here, he gives a perfect life in heaven.

Riiiiggghhht. So the whole of humanity is condemned because a couple of people thousands of years ago ate an apple. Yep, that seems like a just and merciful god to me. Just out of curiosity, is this the only act that causes original sin? Murder etcetera is obviously disobeying god, and I would think... hope... it would be a much more serious transgression. Does that increase the original sin humans are born with?

Name me one miracle that man did and not God.
He took the apple.

If you truly believe in god then believe that god gave us the ability to commit miracles. In committing miracles of good one must understand the surrounding world in which to do so. You are worthless if you stick your head in the sand, utter a prayer, and expect god to save you.

Aside from every life saved through medicine and science.

How can you serve god when you utterly fail to serve mankind?

Name me one Miracle done by man!

more to the point, does god have faith in me?

Yes!

because if "we" hadnt disobeyed god back in the garden of eden we would still be living in paradise and no bad thing would ever happen to us. its all our OWN fault for falling into god's trap --telling people will no knowlege of good and bad that they can do ANNNNNYYYTHIIIING they want but they better not eat that apple!. youd think that an all knowing being would know how "reverse psychology" works.

its not a mater of fault. god set up an imperfect world. bad things happen to everyone regardless of their behavior or beliefs. god doesnt give his followers a pain free life here, he gives a perfect life in heaven.

god had to trap us? if god really desired a painfree/non suffering life on earth, he would never have created a tree in the garden of eden that would have corrupted all creation. if he has foreknowledge, he knew that by creating that tree, all humanity would become corrupt. therefore, he could have not created such a trap. but he did, so it is not our fault that we suffer, it is the will of god. a great god indeed...

i know that suffering builds character and i think it makes us appreciate happiness and joy. but, i see more suffering and pain than necessary...

He took the apple.

That's not a miracle :rolleyes:

First, yes I know God exists. Not only from my experiences but from my faith, and faith is what is required to believe. Not evidence but faith. Nowhere is it guaranteed that if we live a good life that we will not have suffering during that life, and anyone who looks to God and expects such will be disappointed no doubt.

That being said, I respectfully disagree that we cannot believe in evolution and the Bible. There is much documentation regarding the interpretations that have come down to us through the centuries. The basic messages are there and that is where the focus should be, not on semantics of translations word for word, translations generally had an agenda other than spreading the good word. To deny evolution and the creatures that belong to the eras is to me to deny some of God's greatest accomplishments. It is an assumption only that God's days would equal man's.

"The Hebrew word tanniyn (pronounced tan-neen; Strong’s #08577). Tanniyn is translated a few different ways in our English Bibles; sometimes it’s “sea monster,” sometimes it’s “serpent.” It is most commonly translated “dragon.” The tanniyn appear to have been some sort of giant reptile. These creatures are mentioned nearly thirty times in the Old Testament and are found both on land and in the water. "

God bless us one and all.

Name me one Miracle done by man!

"...every life saved through modern medicine and science."

Edit: on second thought, don't.

Just wondering, what exactly have we observed evolving into another viable lifefrom? Random question, duckbill platypus much?
scientists in russia evolved a species of fox into a new species of doglike creature using artificial selection over a period of twenty years.

That's not a miracle :rolleyes:
Yes it is. Through it, Man gained wisdom of what was good and what was not. It was not God-given, nor would you say it was a natural thing for him to do, and yet through it we develop conscious awareness of the world that is to all intents and purposes a benefit.

If man's awakening from animal to person is not a miracle then I don't know what is.

"...every life saved through modern medicine and science."

Name me one miracle done by "god".

Creating our creation. Healing people who prayed for healing (and without medication), Walking on water. I could go on but I know you will not believe it. You want signs to know that God exists but blessed is the person who does not see these things and yet believes in Jesus.

You should not mock other people's religion.

Why not? I mock everything else. :)


I look upon His works daily and thank Him for giving us the environment that we live in today. That is why I am out to protect His environment.

You can't protect it if you don't understand it. If His environment mattered to you, you would do everything in your power to protect it...and that would include learning fundamental biology. You haven't done that, clearly because His creation isn't worth your time.


Never said that we shouldn't.

You have quite obviously refused to learn even the very most basic principles of life and living systems. These are concepts that any high school student could grasp without much trouble.


The Bible is a collection of books so what book are you talking about?

*eye roll*


I worship the Lord God and have accepted His Son Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior. He restoreth my soul and though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Death I shall fear no evil, for He is with me. Do not mock my faith in the Lord.

I hereby mock your faith in the Lord.

Now will you quite your whimpering and get over it? I don't give a fig which magical fairy you invoke, I'm trying to have a real discussion. If you haven't got the stomach for an adult conversation, then go hug your Jeebus teddy bear and pout in some other corner.


You do not know nothing about what I do in the Name of the Lord. I worship Him and Praise His Holy Name. I maintain his commandments and I will not compromise my beliefs for anyone as that is being a hypocrit. I will gladly lay down my life in Defense of Him. As a God fearing person, I am going to forgive you for your mockery. I will keep you in my prayers and hope that you see the light to save your soul from eternal damnation.
For the love of your God, PLEASE don't pray for my salvation. That would get me sent up to Heaven, to spend eternity with your impotent God and his mindless sheep. A lake of fire would be paradise by comparison.

I'll develop the first lava-proof floating pool chair, and all us godless thinkers can enjoy some Mojitos while you shmooze with the fluffy sheep up in cloudville. :)

*snip*

I wash my hands of you. You will face your own consequences. I have done my best to save you and it is my hope that you still come and see the light.

while you shmooze with the fluffy sheep up in cloudville. :)
Sheep? In heaven? You must be kidding. Those things are as evil as it gets. Didn't you ever listen to Pink Floyd?

Creating our creation. Healing people who prayed for healing (and without medication), Walking on water. I could go on but I know you will not believe it. You want signs to know that God exists but blessed is the person who does not see these things and yet believes in Jesus.

he says "belive in me, but i wont give you any proof that i exist!"

im so glad god heals people when they ask to be healed. because if he didnt, we would have so many people suffering from diseases like cancer. oh...wait...

I really should stop feeding the troll, I know, but I just get such a kick out of this.

"The Bible is true. Yeah huh, is so! I know it is, but I'm not going to tell you how I know. I could so do it, I just don't wanna. It's not worth my time, because I'm too busy going to heaven because I know the Sky Fairy likes me best. So there. I forgive you all for not agreeing with me, for you know not what you do. That's what a good Christian does, you know: he refuses to learn anything about God's creation, and then goes around forgiving the poor saps who waste their lives learning about stuff. Praise Jeebus."
And mocking a person's faith or moral beliefs is a worthy endeavour? You have "evolved" to this station in life whereby you get "kick out of this"?

You don't believe in God. You are not alone, but it doesn't mean that you are right. I think that there is more than one troll at work here.

Actually Jesus never walked on water. At the time he walked on water the body of water would have been frozen.

Do you believe we could abandon all sciences and still prosper as a society?

Healing people who prayed for healing (and without medication)

I'm going to take any of these stories with a grain of salt. I also know that more people saved through medication than prayer.

If you plan to serve god have the intent to serve man as well. Otherwise we have witch burnings, holy wars, and various other horrific acts.

The fact that god sends people to hell is enough to make me despise "it". Benevelent...right.

And mocking a person's faith or moral beliefs is a worthy endeavour? You have "evolved" to this station in life whereby you get "kick out of this"?

You don't believe in God. You are not alone, but it doesn't mean that you are right. I think that there is more than one troll at work here.

Here here.

Yes it is. Through it, Man gained wisdom of what was good and what was not. It was not God-given, nor would you say it was a natural thing for him to do, and yet through it we develop conscious awareness of the world that is to all intents and purposes a benefit.

If man's awakening from animal to person is not a miracle then I don't know what is.
I have to disagree. A miracle is an event that defies natural explanation. I do not believe that we, as humans, could ever presume to claim we have seen a miracle. It would be supremely arrogant to do so.

See, for something to be a miracle, it has to be something that COULD NEVER BE EXPLAINED by natural means. That means that when we say something is a miracle, we are saying that never, in all the universe and in all the expanse of time, could anybody ever explain that thing. Ever.

Three hundred years ago, your computer would have been a "miracle" to the people of that time, because no natural explanation they were aware of could account for the computer. Now, it's not miraculous at all. It is pretty damn presumptuous of us to insist that we see miracles, when we could simply admit that we personally don't know what's up with everything. Just because we don't get it doesn't mean that NOBODY will EVER get it. Projecting our ignorance with that kind of scope is just weird, to me.

Name me one Miracle done by man!

Antibiotics.

How dare you. Corneliu is simply trying to make a point, and you mock his religion. he makes an arguement, and you call his religion a fairy tale.have respect, please.

Actually Jesus never walked on water. At the time he walked on water the body of water would have been frozen.

If you firmly believe that then what was the thickness of the ice? Why was there a boat out there if there was ice? If there was a boat out there, with the ice, then the Ice was not that thick and would not support a human's weight.

Do you believe we could abandon all sciences and still prosper as a society?

No.

I'm going to take any of these stories with a grain of salt. I also know that more people saved through medication than prayer.

People still pray. Prayer does work and it will always work.

If you plan to serve god have the intent to serve man as well. Otherwise we have witch burnings, holy wars, and various other horrific acts.

I will serve my God. He will guide me in what He wants me to do.

The fact that god sends people to hell is enough to make me despise "it". Benevelent...right.

God does not want people who does not believe in Him with him.

And mocking a person's faith or moral beliefs is a worthy endeavour? You have "evolved" to this station in life whereby you get "kick out of this"?

Evolution has nothing to do with my enjoyment of mocking a coward.

I have made it clear that I am not mocking God belief with this troll. I am mocking his personal cowardice and willful ignorance, as well as his obviously dishonorable behavior during this discussion. If you want to equate his trolling with "faith" then I guess that's your call, but I'm not prepared to insult the religious by doing that. I think religion is about more than hiding behind Jesus to avoid thinking.


You don't believe in God. You are not alone, but it doesn't mean that you are right. I think that there is more than one troll at work here.
Again, this is just a straw man diversion. My entire point here has been that this fellow's trolling has nothing to do with actual "faith" in "God." It's about some kid who doesn't want to learn stuff, and who like to use God as his cop-out.

I think that kind of behavior makes all believers look bad, just as it makes them look bad when some pompous Christian uses Jesus to justify their racism or bigotry. I think any Christian with a brain would be insulted by how this fellow is using their faith to serve his own selfish needs.

But maybe I'm wrong.

Riiiiggghhht. So the whole of humanity is condemned because a couple of people thousands of years ago ate an apple. Yep, that seems like a just and merciful god to me. Just out of curiosity, is this the only act that causes original sin? Murder etcetera is obviously disobeying god, and I would think... hope... it would be a much more serious transgression. Does that increase the original sin humans are born with?
i dont believe you read my whole post.

i began with the explanation of what i thought is meant by "our sins" causing humanity to have a sucky life. i guess i should have used sarcasm tags but i thought that the end of the first paragraph kinda showed my contempt of that train of thought.

the garden of eden story is the ancient hebrews attempt to answer the question of "why bad things happen to good people".

no one can fail to notice that life sucks and that bad things happen at random to everyone. some get a worse deal than others but no one has a pain free life. this randomness seems very wrong to us. we feel that there must be some reason why life sucks.

so the ancient hebrews came up with the idea that we COULD have had it great but we messed up (right from the get-go) and now we have to deal with imperfection.

the story of the garden of eden has more to it than that but that is one of its big lessons. life sucks and its going to continue to suck. there's a reason for it but we cant fix it.

as far as *I* am concerned, the more mature belief (as opposed to a belief in a literal garden) is that god created an imperfect life. as he obviously did. belief in god and obedience to his commandments doesnt give you a free ride in this life. bad things will always happen to good people (and to bad people) what you are promised is that god will help you get through the hard times and that in the next life you will get the perfection that your soul yearns for.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I voted yes to your question, but I don't believe in God in the standard bible school way.

I am a pantheist. I beleive that God is All That Is and Is Not. In other words, God and Creation are ALL ONE THING. Its a theology that I came to years ago in seminary after being told repeatedly that my philosophies were not shared with Christianity. Its the only theology that I have found that explains the infiniteness and omnipresence of God and the Universe as we have discovered it to be thus far. Anybody who wants to know more can write me.

I believe we all, as part of God, choose the time and circumstance of our leaving. In other words, I don't believe God "took" your friend. I think your friend "checked out."

Spiritually, cancer can be a great awakener. It can awaken the patient, the people around the patient, the people who treat the patient, and sometimes a nation, as with Lance Armstrong and others. Anything that awakens us to the true meaning of life is of God (1). A soul will sometimes choose a manner of death that lifts others to higher meaning and a quest for truth. This is almost always the case with children and saints.

Sometimes cancer can also be a slow, highly forgivable, suicide. Nobody says, "I think I'll have cancer and take 2 long painfull years and bankrupt my family emotionally and financially." And yet, depression often deepens into a death wish that over a period of time can manifest as disease, addiction or carelessness which then eventually leads to death. If we can find a cure for depression, if we can just find a cure for abuse and negative self-talk, health overall will improve.(2)

The other thing you gotta look at is: Life is hard. Nobody gets through life without struggle. Some souls are daintier than others and weren't meant to stay that long. Some souls like a short trip into this dimension and a clean exit. Others weather the struggle that is life easily and stay much longer.

Although it is your feeling that your friend should not have died, the only soul you rightfully get to make that decision for is yourself. And one day you will.

Coco =)

(1)Pantheists don't believe in duality, so the idea that anything could not be God, no matter how vile, is nullified.
(2)Depression is directly correlated to lack of seratonin and norepinephrin in the brain. Science has yet to determine which came first, the negativity and self-indulgence or the chemical imbalance; the chicken and the egg.

If you firmly believe that then what was the thickness of the ice? Why was there a boat out there if there was ice? If there was a boat out there, with the ice, then the Ice was not that thick and would not support a human's weight.

I don't firmly believe that, but I'm offering a possible explanation. Besides walking on water isn't a miracle. Bugs do it all the time.


People still pray. Prayer does work and it will always work.

Of course it does. It is comforting to know that there is an infinitely powerful parent figure looking after you and protecting you. This comfort helps people greatly.

I will serve my God. He will guide me in what He wants me to do.

God wants you to help your fellow man, which is done through science.

God does not want people who does not believe in Him with him.

and I do not want a god who banishes people to an eternal fire.

I have to disagree. A miracle is an event that defies natural explanation. I do not believe that we, as humans, could ever presume to claim we have seen a miracle. It would be supremely arrogant to do so.

See, for something to be a miracle, it has to be something that COULD NEVER BE EXPLAINED by natural means. That means that when we say something is a miracle, we are saying that never, in all the universe and in all the expanse of time, could anybody ever explain that thing. Ever.

Three hundred years ago, your computer would have been a "miracle" to the people of that time, because no natural explanation they were aware of could account for the computer. Now, it's not miraculous at all. It is pretty damn presumptuous of us to insist that we see miracles, when we could simply admit that we personally don't know what's up with everything. Just because we don't get it doesn't mean that NOBODY will EVER get it. Projecting our ignorance with that kind of scope is just weird, to me.
Corneliu is obviously the sort to take the Bible literally, as has been expressed. I am not. However, for the purposes of this argument, assume that the literal interpretation is taken to be the correct one.

So. Person takes a fruit and eats it. Solely based on the result of this fruit, he and his descendants for all eternity classify actions on a scale of morality.

It's forced mutation on a genetic and macrobiological scale that specifically and instantly changes the very nature of the individual's consciousness through the simple act of eating the growth of a tree. That sounds pretty miraculous to me. I find it somehow unlikely that this chain events could ever be explained by natural means. Ever.

What's more, that a human without a natural predisposition to do so would actually eat the thing is similarly impossible to explain. Either the original sin was an aspect of our personality from the very start or the fact that it happened is a miracle against God himself.

i cannot believe this. the reason their is a hell is that only those who sin greatly and do not repent wil be cast in. if you believe in God, and dont go around commiting murder, sex before marriage, porno, robbing banks, and stuff like dat, you will see God. you cant just go to heaven and say, " Hey dude, i just saw the most wicked XXX film. it was awesome!!"

i cannot believe this. the reason their is a hell is that only those who sin greatly and do not repent wil be cast in. if you believe in God, and dont go around commiting murder, sex before marriage, porno, robbing banks, and stuff like dat, you will see God. you cant just go to heaven and say, " Hey dude, i just saw the most wicked XXX film. it was awesome!!"

The punishment doesn't even come close to fitting the crime.

Religions are exclusive by design, and are xenophobic by default. The major ones have at their core the idea that in the end, their members and only their members, gain access to heaven, and all others are condemned. Religions do try to recruit, but realistically, one may as well try to ask people to become millionaires, or change their skin pigmentation. At the end of the day, if you're not part of the group, you're not getting in, and the rest deserve misery.

Thus I view all visions of heaven as a privileged gated community keeping the blacks, jews and homosexuals (or christians or muslims, etc) out with walls and outsourced repression.

If my country pulled that shit, I'd leave. If I was religious, I would choose hell.

Why leave when you could infiltrate and bring about the Eternal Revolution!

I think bill hicks said it best when he said the following:

So the idea of christianity is that everlasting torment and damnation awaits those who question God´s infinite love?

---

I cannot believe a loving, living God (theoretically personified for the sake of argument) would let those suffer who merely called him by another name, prayed differently unto him, or simply didn´t believe in him. The goodness or morality of a person is not depended on whether he believes in God/Allah/Jawhe/The flying spaghetti monster. This is a tool of oppression, conversion and basic scare mongering: the "Believe or suffer, horribly"-kind

Monotheism in its traditional sense is anthromorphically misguided. There has been too much powerplay, twisting of words and atrocious acts committed in the name of some being who´d probably be sick to his stomach if he saw what his followers had been doing.

I don't firmly believe that, but I'm offering a possible explanation. Besides walking on water isn't a miracle. Bugs do it all the time.

A human cannot but Jesus did. The whole walking on ice theory falls apart for a whole number of reasons.

Of course it does. It is comforting to know that there is an infinitely powerful parent figure looking after you and protecting you. This comfort helps people greatly.

yep.

God wants you to help your fellow man, which is done through science.

Sience does not help the homeless. Science does not help the poor.

and I do not want a god who banishes people to an eternal fire.

Then accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and you will not be sent to hell.

Science does not help the homeless. Science does not help the poor.

God does not help everyone either. Point and case having to put my dog to sleep because he had been suffering for years. Back when I was young and I still prayed almost every night. I'm just glad I wisened up.

Then accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior and you will not be sent to hell.

I'd rather burn in my hell then flourish in your heaven.

God does not help everyone either. Point and case having to put my dog to sleep because he had been suffering for years. Back when I was young and I still prayed almost every night. I'm just glad I wisened up.

I had to put my cat to sleep a couple of years ago. I know my cat is in a better place and is frolicing in Heaven.

I'd rather burn in my hell then flourish in your heaven.

Then you truly are a lost soul :(

Then you truly are a lost soul :(

If going to hell is the price it takes for trying to make earth a heaven then so be it.

Edit: The soda machine just took my money. *shakes fist towards the sky*

As a borne Muslim, but temporarily a Weak Agnostic I do deny the existence of God, but I did choose yes. Although, on the contrary, I think there is too much contradiction of His existence to even believe in Him. My main example: the differences in Christianity and Islam. Did you know that, following Qur'anic laws, all Muslims should be Evolutionists? Then why did God tell the Christians he created the world in 7 days? That is total contradiction, and that is why I deny. Also, in the Qur'an, as mentioned before, Trinity is totally disregarded, yet in the Bible it is written of it. And what of Jesus' divinity? It is also denied in the Qur'an... but maybe this was not doings of God, but of fanatics of Jesus... All in all, I, for now, deny God's existence b/c there is too much contradiction between the three monotheistic religions to even have Faith.

"God does not want people who does not believe in Him with him."

God knows why I do not believe in Him.

So far He has kept quiet about it.

All in all, I, for now, deny God's existence b/c there is too much contradiction between the three monotheistic religions to even have Faith.

We're in the same boat.

I'm focusing more on philosophy now.

As a borne Muslim, but temporarily a Weak Agnostic I do deny the existence of God, but I did choose yes. Although, on the contrary, I think there is too much contradiction of His existence to even believe in Him. My main example: the differences in Christianity and Islam. Did you know that, following Qur'anic laws, all Muslims should be Evolutionists? Then why did God tell the Christians he created the world in 7 days? That is total contradiction, and that is why I deny. Also, in the Qur'an, as mentioned before, Trinity is totally disregarded, yet in the Bible it is written of it. And what of Jesus' divinity? It is also denied in the Qur'an... but maybe this was not doings of God, but of fanatics of Jesus... All in all, I, for now, deny God's existence b/c there is too much contradiction between the three monotheistic religions to even have Faith.

Then your not a muslim if you deny God. Muslims do not deny the existance of God but you just admited that you do deny that God exists.

Then your not a muslim if you deny God. Muslims do not deny the existance of God but you just admited that you do deny that God exists.

I believe Javvadelend said he was a temporarily Weak Agnostic, but born a Muslim.

I believe Javvadelend said he was a temporarily Weak Agnostic, but born a Muslim.

Well hopefully he hasn't damaged himself or his family by being a weak agnostic. Muslims get finicky about such things, well the extreme ones do at anyrate.

Well hopefully he hasn't damaged himself or his family by being a weak agnostic. Muslims get finicky about such things, well the extreme ones do at anyrate.

As do extreme Christians.

I've been physcially threatened by many Christians, namely Jehova's Witnesses, for saying the things I've said here.

As do extreme Christians.

I've been physcially threatened by many Christians, namely Jehova's Witnesses, for saying the things I've said here.

Every religion has their extreme element. Frankly, and this is my opinion, those who espouse extreme views are not true to the faith and should not use their religion to justify their actions.

On that note, I would like to apologize to you if I came across harshly. I did not mean to.

If going to hell is the price it takes for trying to make earth a heaven then so be it.

Edit: The soda machine just took my money. *shakes fist towards the sky*

Earth can never be heaven without God.

Heaven is where all your deepest dreams, hopes and desires will be fulfilled.

Hell is where you realize that you could have had it all, but rejected it.

As has already been said, God did the hard part. Not a pagan God who demands many human sacrifices, only one was necessary. He gave his only Son as the sacrifice. Now all you have to do is accept what is freely given, and you will live.

The problem is, we have an eternal spiritual nature. Once we begin, we never end. The choice of where to spend your life beyond these few years on Earth belongs to each and every one of us.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

You can't get there on your own.

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

And you can't get there without God.

There is only one name given under heaven by which we must be saved.

You need Jesus.

Whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hell was not made for people to be thrown into; it was made for the rebellious angels. If you remain a rebel, you will end up there as well.

God doesn't want you to be lost, he wants you to be found.

Please choose life.

What I really want to know is, if I discover a technological or medical application of evolutionary biology...

Will anti-evolutionists use it? Even to save their lives?

I'm fine with either way. :D

Sience does not help the homeless. Science does not help the poor.


It provided medicines for the sick, discovered many factors contributing to their suffering etc, all of which help them more than some so called Christian governments who deny them free healthcare or encourage pharmacutical companies ot their money-grubbing behaviour.

Besides, what science doesn't do does not necessarily require religion. You can help the needy without asking for a reward in the afterlife or believing in a deity.

I had to put my cat to sleep a couple of years ago. I know my cat is in a better place and is frolicing in Heaven.



Then you truly are a lost soul :(


1) I thought animals didn't have souls, and thus do not go to heaven? Nice way to show off your religious knowledge.

2) Well, if they're an atheist, it's likely that they don't believe in a soul, so they aren't a lost anything.

Every religion has their extreme element. Frankly, and this is my opinion, those who espouse extreme views are not true to the faith and should not use their religion to justify their actions.

On that note, I would like to apologize to you if I came across harshly. I did not mean to.

Completely agreed.

No need to apologize you were just defending your beliefs. Likewise I would like to apologize if I mocked them.

:mad: :mad: All religious people should be sent to concentration camps! Kill 'em all! Religion is poison and there is no such thing as god. Only weak people! :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

Earth can never be heaven without God.

So we shouldn't try? God gave man the earth to toil over and reap from his labor.

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

Don't make me scream the difference between an atheist and an agnostic (me). My loss of faith is because the absence of the light. I have not given up on god, but I want to walk my own path.

You need Jesus.

Probably.

Please choose life.

Our only difference is that I am focusing on mortal existance where as you focus on the afterlife.

Completely agreed.

No need to apologize you were just defending your beliefs. Likewise I would like to apologize if I mocked them.

Its ok really. I don't think you were mocking it personally.

yes, i can't believe people don't. He's the one who gave you life.
Before you answer that question in real life you just need to think about what you said, and how you got here.

how you got here.

The agnostic anthem: I really don't know, but I'm going to focus on living before I focus on what is after life.

yes, i can't believe people don't. He's the one who gave you life.
Before you answer that question in real life you just need to think about what you said, and how you got here.

Instant noodles?

yes, i can't believe people don't. He's the one who gave you life.
Before you answer that question in real life you just need to think about what you said, and how you got here.


My parents had sex, really.

Sorry, there is no invisible sky-pixie who made me from magical dough.

yes, i can't believe people don't. He's the one who gave you life.
Before you answer that question in real life you just need to think about what you said, and how you got here.

Who gave me life? Ask my parents. Ask their ancestors. Ask those early primates.

My parents had sex, really.

Sorry, there is no invisible sky-pixie who made me from magical dough.
Ahh but where did Adam and Eve come from?

*Hint* it wasn't by evolution

Ahh but where did Adam and Eve come from?

*Hint* it wasn't by evolution

Chuck Norris.

Ahh but where did Adam and Eve come from?

*Hint* it wasn't by evolution

*Hint* Stating things as though they were facts do not make them so.

How do you know that Adam and Eve existed, under those names, in that form?

The answer is simple: I do not believe in the biblical figures of Adam and Eve. I believe the first humans evolved from early primates, and as their capacity for intelligent thought developed (a useful survival tool) they started to wonder what was making everything happen. Thus, God.

My parents had sex, really.

Sorry, there is no invisible sky-pixie who made me from magical dough.
eeewww that's gross. i much prefer to believe i simply appeared in my mum's belly than my parents had sex. they would never do that.

Ahh but where did Adam and Eve come from?

*Hint* it wasn't by evolution

They always were *shrug*

That or by god, but which god exactly is the question.

*Hint* Stating things as though they were facts do not make them so.

When Chuck Norris made the Earth and the Moon, he gave the a Moon a sound roundhouse kick to the face resulting in the orbit increasing from 10,000 kilometers to 380,000 kilometers today.

That "theory" about a Mars-sized body impacting Earth to form the Moon through combined surface ejecta?

Bunk.

"Theories" are all bunk. Only roundhouse kicks are real.

When Chuck Norris made the Earth and the Moon, he gave the a Moon a sound roundhouse kick to the face resulting in the orbit increasing from 10,000 kilometers to 380,000 kilometers today.

That "theory" about a Mars-sized body impacting Earth to form the Moon through combined surface ejecta?

Bunk.

"Theories" are all bunk. Only roundhouse kicks are real.
ah, from the First Book of Norris, Roundhousekickises. very wise.

When Chuck Norris made the Earth and the Moon, he gave the a Moon a sound roundhouse kick to the face resulting in the orbit increasing from 10,000 kilometers to 380,000 kilometers today.

That "theory" about a Mars-sized body impacting Earth to form the Moon through combined surface ejecta?

Bunk.

"Theories" are all bunk. Only roundhouse kicks are real.

Now that I believe!

yes, and his name is Yahweh.

He'll judge us all when we die. (so watch out! hehe)

I believe there is a God, but the existence of God does not preclude humans from doing incredibly nasty things to each other (unfortunately, all too often in the name of God).

yes, and his name is Yahweh.

He'll judge us all when we die. (so watch out! hehe)
what if God isn't a He? all your piety will be mighty silly if you've gotten God's sex wrong all this time.

yes, and his name is Yahweh.

He'll judge us all when we die. (so watch out! hehe)

When Chuck Norris was a judge, the incessant typewriter clatter in court annoyed him so much that he gave the defendant a high kick and double punch. And a sound roundhouse kick to the plaintiff for cheering him on.

When Chuck Norris was a judge, the incessant typewriter clatter in court annoyed him so much that he gave the defendant a high kick and double punch. And a sound roundhouse kick to the plaintiff for cheering him on.

Gah, no more Chuck Norris jokes in this thread please.

Keep it up and I'll post a funny picture about hijacking.

Gah, no more Chuck Norris jokes in this thread please.

Keep it up and I'll post a funny picture about hijacking.

Ok, what about the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Ok, what about the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

Hey that just gave me a cool idea for a new thread!

Ok, what about the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
No, no. FSM, darling. FSM.

No, no. FSM, darling. FSM.

Fairly Slender Minorities.

yes, and his name is Yahweh.

He'll judge us all when we die. (so watch out! hehe)


"Hehe"? That's the kind of elitist arrogance that makes people dislike Fundies. You're not God's elect no matter what you think, and you're not better than the rest of us.

(If your post was meant humorously, I apologize. Sarcasm doesn't translate to the written word well.)

Just wondering, what exactly have we observed evolving into another viable lifefrom? Random question, duckbill platypus much?
we are actualy witnessing a devolution in human terms first there were apes then man apes then men and now we seem to be devolving into a lesser life form in england its taken its own name its known simply as the chav.
All attempts at kulling theis primative form of life are failing they breed like rabbits with the IQ of a macdonalds burger! the world is in danger of being infected please can anyone assist in the eradication of this lowly genetic mistake ? :mp5:


''im taking the pee so it changes the heavy god convo lol

we are actualy witnessing a devolution in human terms first there were apes then man apes then men and now we seem to be devolving into a lesser life form in england its taken its own name its known simply as the chav.
All attempts at kulling theis primative form of life are failing they breed like rabbits with the IQ of a macdonalds burger! the world is in danger of being infected please can anyone assist in the eradication of this lowly genetic mistake ? :mp5:

i notice we're also evolving away from comprehensibility. punctuation-ness is next to godliness, mein freund.

Y'all are saying this like it is a big bummer...perception and emotions are "nothing but a bunch of chemical reactions." Forgive me, but as somebody who studies those boring old reactions for a living, I fail to see why the amazing process of neurotransmission is regarded as somehow less beautiful or wonderous or fascinating.

People seem to think that some hazy, bland concept of "a soul" is more interesting than the actual workings of their brains! As though knowing how their brain works will somehow make it mundane and worthless, or as though science is somehow stripping away the wonder from the human condition. Are people really so delighted with random assertions that God stuck emotions in our heads, or that demons and magic spirits control our feelings, or that our thoughts are manefestations of some goofy ghost-like "soul" that flutters in and out of our pitiful mortal body?

That's one of the reasons I've never bought into the God myths: they're just too dull and lifeless and unimaginative to mesh with the world that science has shown me. The Christian God, in particular, is a clumsy and awkward figure who has been given over-blown superpowers and a crushing ego in a failed attempt to mask his apparent inability to perform even the simplest of tasks. Nature provides far more elegant solutions in the simplest bacteria. If I found myself inclined to worship something, I would go with the bacteria over God any day of the week. I most certainly would sooner worship a neuron than some wacky demi-god S&M freak. :)

completly and undeniably agree( well, at least about the elegence of the inner workings of nature, the cell, DNA, etc.)--it is amazing and fascinating- the complexity, the innner working, espicially down to the atomic level- I understand the awe (or at least the awe) i feel when I am studying this stuff-- like i said, meant it as an offhanded comment, maybe a smilie in the post would have helped:)

I just saw this thread. Read the first page and saw the Problem of Evil. Read the last page and we're talking about evolution. Talk about tangents...

From my study of the matter, every objection against the belief in God is not so much rooted in logic but experience. Either the objector has had a bad experience with someone who claimed to believe in God or there is something bad they've seen that they cannot possibly believe God would allow.

The first motivation for atheism is absurd as you're criticizing an entire belief system on people who fail to properly abide by that respective belief system. That's like criticizing the whole of academia because one professor plagurized his work.

The second motivation, which is by far the most common, is equally absurd. If God does not exist then "evil," as an objective state of being, does not exist. If evil does not exist, it cannot be used as proof of God's non-existence. Evil is actually proof of God's existence. To borrow the lyrics of Switchfoot, the shadow proves the sunshine. The fact that we can identify darkness is evidence that there is a light in contrast to it, or in the case of shadows, we can identify shadows because of the sun. If the sun, or the light, did not exist, there would be nothing to discern shadows from darkness as it would all be darkness. The "Problem of Evil" is actually quite a significant problem for atheists, even moreso than theists, because if you're going to claim that there isn't a God - an objective, eternal source of all that is good - you're going to have a hard time justifying anything you perceive to be evil as objectively being "evil." "Evil" becomes nothing more than a subjective feeling or perception that we place upon an experience - a human invention if you will - with no objective justification.

At least the theist can claim that evil really is evil and not a fanciful product of our imagination.

Edit:

To better clarify my point, I present the following hypothetical:

If your mother died of a horrible form of cancer that caused tremendous pain for years until she died, in your sorrow, would you rather be told that your sorrow is justified because what happened to your mother really was evil or would you rather be told that what happened only appears to be evil because you think it is?

I just saw this thread. Read the first page and saw the Problem of Evil. Read the last page and we're talking about evolution. Talk about tangents...

From my study of the matter, every objection against the belief in God is not so much rooted in logic but experience. Either the objector has had a bad experience with someone who claimed to believe in God or there is something bad they've seen that they cannot possibly believe God would allow.

The first motivation for atheism is absurd as you're criticizing an entire belief system on people who fail to properly abide by that respective belief system. That's like criticizing the whole of academia because one professor plagurized his work.

The second motivation, which is by far the most common, is equally absurd. If God does not exist then "evil," as an objective state of being, does not exist. If evil does not exist, it cannot be used as proof of God's non-existence. Evil is actually proof of God's existence. To borrow the lyrics of Switchfoot, the shadow proves the sunshine. The fact that we can identify darkness is evidence that there is a light in contrast to it, or in the case of shadows, we can identify shadows because of the sun. If the sun, or the light, did not exist, there would be nothing to discern shadows from darkness as it would all be darkness. The "Problem of Evil" is actually quite a significant problem for atheists, even moreso than theists, because if you're going to claim that there isn't a God - an objective, eternal source of all that is good - you're going to have a hard time justifying anything you perceive to be evil as objectively being "evil." "Evil" becomes nothing more than a subjective feeling or perception that we place upon an experience - a human invention if you will - with no objective justification.

At least the theist can claim that evil really is evil.
i dont think a debate of the motives of atheism is appropriate here. suffice it to say that its more diverse and more complicated that you state.

to go with your light/dark metaphor.... there IS no such thing as darkness. there is only light and the absence of light. (in the same way there is no COLD just heat and the absence of heat)

i would suggest that there IS no evil, only the divine (or good) and the absence of the divine. we sense it as evil in the same way we sense darkness.

No evidence either way really.

I agree. Christianity, islam, atheism, no belief about the existence or not of God can be proven.

i dont think a debate of the motives of atheism is appropriate here. suffice it to say that its more diverse and more complicated that you state.

I obtained a degree in philosophy from a very secular institution in which atheism was hammered down our throats. Needless to say, among all the logical mind games and senseless arguments over semantics, whenever I dug deeper into an atheists beliefs, I found that these motives were consistently present in nearly all of them at the very root of the matter. Its not an insult, but an observation. I could very well be proven wrong if there are any atheists whose reasons for not believing in God are not because of their annoyance with individual Christians or because of the Problem of Evil.

to go with your light/dark metaphor.... there IS no such thing as darkness. there is only light and the absence of light. (in the same way there is no COLD just heat and the absence of heat)

i would suggest that there IS no evil, only the divine (or good) and the absence of the divine. we sense it as evil in the same way we sense darkness.

That's exactly what I was getting at ;)

I agree. Christianity, islam, atheism, no belief about the existence or not of God can be proven.

Proof and evidence are two entirely different things.

"Evidence" is the objective state of the world as manifest and interpretted by the human senses while "proof" is a person's subjective assent, or dissent, from what is perceived. In other words, I could provide evidence until I'm blue in the face that 2 + 2 = 4, but if a person refuses to believe it, it cannot be proven to them.

There is plenty of evidence that God exists without there, necessarily, being proof.

It's defined differently depending on the context used, for my purposes it was as I said, a change from one species to another in response to "evolved" versus "involved"


I see you dont understand evolution!

Evolution is a change in allele frequency, in a population, over time.

You can look up allele yourself.

*Hint* Stating things as though they were facts do not make them so.

So where did the 1st humans come from?

How do you know that Adam and Eve existed, under those names, in that form?

The answer is simple: I do not believe in the biblical figures of Adam and Eve. I believe the first humans evolved from early primates, and as their capacity for intelligent thought developed (a useful survival tool) they started to wonder what was making everything happen. Thus, God.

And yet we didn't evolve from primates.

And yet we didn't evolve from primates.

The Bible says we evolved from dirt. I don't see how that's much better than primates...

Common decent should not be a problem for any Christian as its right in the book of Genesis. It says that God built us out of the dirt, but it doesn't say how many steps it took to get from dirt to man. It is my understanding of evolution, that man's creation over millions of years from the "primordial ooze" - or "primordial dirt" if you wish - is entirley consistent with the book of Genesis. After all, are not a thousand years like a day for God?

No where does it say that man was created ex nihilo, or "from nothing." The book of Genesis says that man was made from - or decended from - the existing creation.

Until abiogenesis can be sufficiently explained by the theory of evolution, it poses no threat to theism.

*snip*

Genesis 1:26-28-->The God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the either, and over all the creatures thatmove along the ground." 27)So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28)God blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

In chapter 2 it does say that man came from the dust of the ground and breathed into us the breath of life. So in essence, yea we did come from nothing for God created us out of the earth.

Yes. I exist. The fact that only 9 people and a hamster worship me simply means that the masses haven't been enlightened yet and will suffer oblivion, while my followers get eternal life, and free jellybeans.

Oh, and Cor, say hi to Jahweh for me the next time you speak (pray, whatever) to him, hmm? ;)

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?

I do think there is a god. However, I disagree with the past several centuries of Western thought in that I do not think that god is omnipotent in the physical world, only in the spiritual.

As for your friend, god didn't kill her, or "let her die," it just happened. I don't believe that god has the power to give immortality. People want god to be someone they can blame for every shitty thing that happens, but I don't view things that way. In my view, god is only a spiritual being, not physical. As long as you look at god from the Judeo-Christian perspective, you're always going to be wondering "how could god be so mean?" I do not ask that question, because I don't go on the premise that god is omnipotent in this world, only in the next. So, god had nothing to do with your friend's death.

Why do I believe in this god? Because I believe in souls, and so I figured that god must be some sort of great spirit. Why isn't my god omnipotent like that of the Jews, Christians and Muslims? Because my god is benevolent, and I don't believe that it's possible for god to be both omnipotent and benevolent, and I refuse to worship something malevolent. Though I believe that god has little power over physical matter, I believe that god is all powerful in the spiritual realm. However, I do not believe that it is god's power that makes her worth worshiping, but her virtue and unlimited love. I also don't believe in the idea of Hell, by the way, nor do I believe the ridiculous creation story in the Christian Bible. I do not think that my views are in conflict with scientific facts such as evolution, as it is impossible to prove or disprove anything about the spiritual world, even its existance. I take it on faith. However, when it comes to physical matters, science is the way to go.

Maybe this sounds absolutely crazy, it's just what I personally believe about god. Normally I don't talk much about my religious beliefs, but since you asked...

Yes. I exist. The fact that only 9 people and a hamster worship me simply means that the masses haven't been enlightened yet and will suffer oblivion, while my followers get eternal life, and free jellybeans.

Oh, and Cor, say hi to Jahweh for me the next time you speak (pray, whatever) to him, hmm? ;)

*fears eternal suffering*

*likes jellybeans*

Make that 10! *starts bowing*

Genesis 1:26-28-->The God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the either, and over all the creatures thatmove along the ground." 27)So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28)God blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

In chapter 2 it does say that man came from the dust of the ground and breathed into us the breath of life. So in essence, yea we did come from nothing for God created us out of the earth.

I'm sorry, but your using for your arguments a book whose only evidence for being true, in this isntance, is that it says it is.

"How do you know the bible is true?"
"Because it says it is!"
"But how do you know that that is true?"
"Because it's in the bible!"

That is called circular logic.

The second motivation, which is by far the most common, is equally absurd. If God does not exist then "evil," as an objective state of being, does not exist. If evil does not exist, it cannot be used as proof of God's non-existence. Evil is actually proof of God's existence. To borrow the lyrics of Switchfoot, the shadow proves the sunshine. The fact that we can identify darkness is evidence that there is a light in contrast to it, or in the case of shadows, we can identify shadows because of the sun. If the sun, or the light, did not exist, there would be nothing to discern shadows from darkness as it would all be darkness. The "Problem of Evil" is actually quite a significant problem for atheists, even moreso than theists, because if you're going to claim that there isn't a God - an objective, eternal source of all that is good - you're going to have a hard time justifying anything you perceive to be evil as objectively being "evil." "Evil" becomes nothing more than a subjective feeling or perception that we place upon an experience - a human invention if you will - with no objective justification.

At least the theist can claim that evil really is evil and not a fanciful product of our imagination.
Ok. All well and good. But how do you explain that these "evil" things do occur? What are God's justifications for doing such things? As S/He's obviously so almighty and everything, why does S/He allow war, sin, natural disasters, and suchlike to exist?

I've gone over this time and again with Neo Rogolia and all I could get out of it was that God appears to be a rather twisted egomaniac who likes designing intricate paradoxical problems and testing them upon living subjects. Perhaps I have the wrong impression here, but meh.

God does not help everyone either. Point and case having to put my dog to sleep because he had been suffering for years. Back when I was young and I still prayed almost every night. I'm just glad I wisened up.

Just because your prayers weren't answered doesn't mean that He didn't hear you or that He wasn't listening. Events that happen in a person's life shape their personality to whom they are supposed to be. Everything happens for a reason God has a plan for everyone. While the plan may change slightly here or there because we have free will, the end result is the same. I too have lost pets and family members I prayed for. Infact while I was a teenager I strayed from my faith because there were many things going on in my life that were horrible and hard to deal with and I was angry at God for letting them happen. But when you don't ask you won't recieve. Life on this earth is not a punishment. It is a gift.

I had a experience near Christmas that strengthened my faith. Last July I started having pains in the upper right side of my abdomen. At first they didn't last long but were excrutiatingly painful. After talking to my mom she said that it sounded like gas and to take some soda water and see if that helped. So I did. At first it worked like a charm, it didn't cure them but it made it so I could sleep by calming the pain. But as time went on they were getting worse: lasting longer and being more painful. I started feeling ill and vomiting because of it. Soda water stopped working and I would be in pain for hours. I was telling my aunt about them one night and she said it sounded like a gall bladder problem. I made an appointment at the doctor one afternoon because I was in horrible pain. (this is about a week before Christmas) The doctor couldnt tell me anything for sure but gave me some antacids to help. A few days later I went to the emergency room because of how much pain I was in. They confirmed the suspicion of gall stones. Christmas rolled around and I tried to have a good time with my family but I couldn't eat much of the food because fat causes the gall bladder to flair up and become painful. Well I over did it even though I was careful and was in horrible pain for about 2 weeks, waiting for the doctors office to get me an appointment for a surgeon to get the painful sucker taken out. I was laying in bed in agony one day, exhausted because I hadn't been able to sleep and was too sick to my stomach to take the pain killers the doctor had given me. So I decided to pray. I asked for relief even if only for a little while so I could sleep. After my prayer I layed in bed staying very still so as not to agitate the damn thing and in about 15 minutes the pain started to subside. I finally fell asleep. My surgery was sceduled for about a week after that day and I didn't feel the pain again until after the sugery when I was in pain from getting cut open. That of course was something entirely different.

I don't expect that story to change anyone's mind who already has it made up. But maybe it will help those who aren't sure to trust in God and give faith a chance.

*fears eternal suffering*

*likes jellybeans*

Make that 10! *starts bowing*
W00t, another worshipper. /passes along a massive bowl of jellybeans/

Enjoy eternal life and welcome to the Cult of Czardas... feel free to make use of the free internet terminals on that cloud over there, and report all orgies to the Front Desk for the proper bureaucratic fumble. Minor warning; do not annoy H N Fiddlebottoms VIII, because he has all the peanut butter (dirty thief /grumbles/).

I'm sorry, but your using for your arguments a book whose only evidence for being true, in this isntance, is that it says it is.

"How do you know the bible is true?"
"Because it says it is!"
"But how do you know that that is true?"
"Because it's in the bible!"

That is called circular logic.

You can believe all tha tyou want. Frankly, I'll take God's word any day of the week.

You can believe all tha tyou want. Frankly, I'll take God's word any day of the week.

thats just the point. who says its gods word? it was written by people, humans, mankind, not god. sure it says it is inspired by god, but anyone could write a book and say it was inspired...

W00t, another worshipper. /passes along a massive bowl of jellybeans/

Enjoy eternal life and welcome to the Cult of Czardas... feel free to make use of the free internet terminals on that cloud over there, and report all orgies to the Front Desk for the proper bureaucratic fumble. Minor warning; do not annoy H N Fiddlebottoms VIII, because he has all the peanut butter (dirty thief /grumbles/).

the cult of czardas blows. they dont even have rollercoasters...

thats just the point. who says its gods word? it was written by people, humans, mankind, not god. sure it says it is inspired by god, but anyone could write a book and say it was inspired...

"In the beginning, there was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God."

Just because your prayers weren't answered doesn't mean that He didn't hear you or that He wasn't listening. Events that happen in a person's life shape their personality to whom they are supposed to be. Everything happens for a reason God has a plan for everyone. While the plan may change slightly here or there because we have free will, the end result is the same. I too have lost pets and family members I prayed for. Infact while I was a teenager I strayed from my faith because there were many things going on in my life that were horrible and hard to deal with and I was angry at God for letting them happen. But when you don't ask you won't recieve. Life on this earth is not a punishment. It is a gift.

Well that was only the start of the trip downhill and at some point near the bottom I realized that everything good I have I've had to fight and work for. So I promised myself to put effort over prayer. Then I realized that there are better people who are living worse and my faith pretty much collapsed.

The story of Job didn't exactly back up my faith either.

I am no longer a practing Christian. I am now a wiccan. Where there is a Goddess and a God.

I made an appointment at the doctor one afternoon because I was in horrible pain. (this is about a week before Christmas) The doctor couldnt tell me anything for sure but gave me some antacids to help. A few days later I went to the emergency room because of how much pain I was in. They confirmed the suspicion of gall stones. Christmas rolled around and I tried to have a good time with my family but I couldn't eat much of the food because fat causes the gall bladder to flair up and become painful. Well I over did it even though I was careful and was in horrible pain for about 2 weeks, waiting for the doctors office to get me an appointment for a surgeon to get the painful sucker taken out. I was laying in bed in agony one day, exhausted because I hadn't been able to sleep and was too sick to my stomach to take the pain killers the doctor had given me. So I decided to pray. I asked for relief even if only for a little while so I could sleep. After my prayer I layed in bed staying very still so as not to agitate the damn thing and in about 15 minutes the pain started to subside. I finally fell asleep. My surgery was sceduled for about a week after that day and I didn't feel the pain again until after the sugery when I was in pain from getting cut open. That of course was something entirely different.

where do you live that it takes so long to get a gallbladder operation?

"In the beginning, there was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God."

from the book of john...

You can believe all tha tyou want. Frankly, I'll take God's word any day of the week.
And how do you know that it's God's word?

Because S/He says it is.

And where does S/He say this?

In the Bible.

Thus, the only proof you have that the Bible was dictated or written by God is that it itself says it is. Which is a thing commonly called "first-person narration". It's like saying Jim wrote Treasure Island.

the cult of czardas blows. they dont even have rollercoasters...
Yes we do. We just don't show them to non-members. :p

"In the beginning, there was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God."
Written by people who could've been just talking out of their asses.

And how do you know that it's God's word?

Because S/He says it is.

And where does S/He say this?

In the Bible.

Thus, the only proof you have that the Bible was dictated or written by God is that it itself says it is. Which is a thing commonly called "first-person narration". It's like saying Jim wrote Treasure Island.

I believe the Bible and all that it says. After all, what took place in the Bible did occur. Daniel's prophecy did come true. I believe the Bible over anything else.

"In the beginning, there was the word. And the word was with God and the word was God."
So God is street cred. How interesting. ;) [j/k]

Seriously... a lot of similar devices occur in modern fiction, or even not-so-modern fiction.

"I have chosen to pen this tale for $reason", begins many a novel or story. (Just look at a work of fiction for instance.) But the novel or story was not penned by the person telling the story, but rather by Poe, or Dickens, or JK Rowling, or what have you.

Written by people who could've been just talking out of their asses.

Even though the events in the Bible actually took place?

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.

I entirely agree. Why would such a being deserve our worship. There is no possible way it could understand us either. If you are omnipotent how can you experience pain, fear, etc and so how can you ever understand the human condition. We would be nothing more than playthings, curiosities at best.

I believe the Bible and all that it says. After all, what took place in the Bible did occur. Daniel's prophecy did come true. I believe the Bible over anything else.
How do you know Daniel's prophecy came true if the only record of such a thing is in the Bible itself?

Face it, the entire thing could be fiction, in fact probably is, because the only evidence for its truth is within its very pages. There is nothing to show that some heavenly figure created the earth and everything in it, made the sun stand still, parted the Red Sea, resurrected Jesus, or anything. You might as well believe in The Lord of the Rings.

Even though the events in the Bible actually took place?
There is no evidence to show that they did beside your own blind faith in their existence.

How do you know Daniel's prophecy came true if the only record of such a thing is in the Bible itself?

Because the King he prophecied to was an actual person.

Face it, the entire thing could be fiction, in fact probably is, because the only evidence for its truth is within its very pages. There is nothing to show that some heavenly figure created the earth and everything in it, made the sun stand still, parted the Red Sea, resurrected Jesus, or anything. You might as well believe in The Lord of the Rings.

Face it, the Bible is not a book of fiction.

Even though the events in the Bible actually took place?

so does that prove eve took fruit from the tree? jesus rose from the dead? the old testament is a history of the israelite people. so many things that took place are accurate in regards to cities and people. but what about homer or herodotus? were there gods that helped the greeks beat the trojans? did the gods aid sparta and athens against the persians? they might accurately describe events that took place, but as far as the supernatural, that is not proven...

Because the King he prophecied to was an actual person.
Any proof that does not come from the Bible?



Face it, the Bible is not a book of fiction.
See above.

where do you live that it takes so long to get a gallbladder operation?

I was taking my sweet time in deciding whether or not I wanted to have it. I thought about trying an herbal remedy first. I didn't see the doctor until the middle of December, an then there was a problem with the insurance deciding whether to cover it or not.

Yes we do. We just don't show them to non-members. :p

sweet, if there is cotton candy count me in...

god is all; all are god.

sweet, if there is cotton candy count me in...
I think that can be arranged. That guy over at the House of Horrors has some candy-making experience...

any father who punishes me with death for my "supposed" orgin for eating a piece of fruit does not deserve to be believed in...


good day; no

Well that was only the start of the trip downhill and at some point near the bottom I realized that everything good I have I've had to fight and work for. So I promised myself to put effort over prayer. Then I realized that there are better people who are living worse and my faith pretty much collapsed.


God doesn't give a free ride to people. Life is supposed to be hard and there are supposed to be trials. There is nothing wrong with working hard to get where you are. My life right now isn't as good as it could be, infact around the same time of my surgery it was at one of the lowest it had ever been. That didn't destroy my faith. It only strengthened it. I spent a lot of time during that point talking to god, not asking for things but talking. Telling Him how and what I was feeling. I cried to Him. I wasn't asking him to grant any wishes. It was then I realized that He is a friend. He is someone who is always there when I need Him. I have felt comfort in those hard times from talking to Him.

Because the King he prophecied to was an actual person.
Face it, the Bible is not a book of fiction.

I believe there's a God, but this is entirely the wrong approach, man. There is ABSOLUTELY no historical proof that the Bible is "not a book of fiction." Don't tell me to face something that can practically be argued down by a drunk high school dropout working at McDonalds. No historian will put his or her weight behind every single claim made in every single book of the Bible, because that's a hell of a lot of grossly unrealistic claims.

God's presence is evident in the actions of human beings. Those who choose to act selflessly when they have the option of selfishness fly in the face of nihilistic thinkers like Nietzsche, who thought that God was a societal imposition. To a nihilist, logically, people should feel utterly unfulfilled by selfless acts. But many people choose to be kind out of complete faith in something bigger than themselves, and are completely content to do so. This "illogical" behavior is far more convincing an argument for the existence of God than your dogmatic allegiance to a book that was compiled by dozens of writers over a two thousand year period.

I think if God existed as a personal individual, judging by the majority of responses in this thread, he'd be mighty pissed at Christianity and Judaism for monopolising belief in him. Very few of the arguments here go beyond the ideas brought forward in the monotheistic religions. Almost makes you think they're doing him a great disservice.

Of course there's a god. Look around you. Do you honestly think evolution created this complexity? The way your brain works, the way atoms works, the way DNA works. If you ever get into advanced mathematics, statistically, there is a god. The probability of not having one is slim to none.

Also, the Bible is not a work of fiction. True, man did write it... but with the guidance of God. Do you think that God, being all powerful, the master of the universe and all things in it, would let someone mess up the one and only window to Him? Of course not. He's in more control than that. He PICKED people to write it because of their honestly, their style, whatever, but HE PICKED them.

As for the original post, God takes people when they are ready. Everything happens for a reason. Do you think you would have seen your friend be as strong as you do now, smiling and being upbeat like that, if she had not gone through chemo?

And yes, He does deserve you're worship for those who think there is a God but doesn't deserve our worship. If not for Him, you wouldn't be here. He created you out of love. He didn't have to. But he did.

That's just my opinion on this matter. I felt I had to reply because I was shocked by the amount of people who didn't believe in God. It's actually painful.

I believe there's a God, but this is entirely the wrong approach, man. There is ABSOLUTELY no historical proof that the Bible is "not a book of fiction." Don't tell me to face something that can practically be argued down by a drunk high school dropout working at McDonalds. No historian will put his or her weight behind every single claim made in every single book of the Bible, because that's a hell of a lot of grossly unrealistic claims.

So you think the Bible is a work of fiction or not?

God's presence is evident in the actions of human beings. Those who choose to act selflessly when they have the option of selfishness fly in the face of nihilistic thinkers like Nietzsche, who thought that God was a societal imposition. To a nihilist, logically, people should feel utterly unfulfilled by selfless acts. But many people choose to be kind out of complete faith in something bigger than themselves, and are completely content to do so. This "illogical" behavior is far more convincing an argument for the existence of God than your dogmatic allegiance to a book that was compiled by dozens of writers over a two thousand year period.

:rolleyes: Good works alone does not get one into heaven. Only complete faith in the Lord Jesus Christ can one see the Kingdom of Heaven.

:rolleyes: Good works alone does not get one into heaven. Only complete faith in the Lord Jesus Christ can one see the Kingdom of Heaven.
Haven't I quoted Luke's Jesus at you on the subject of Heaven already?

Haven't I quoted Luke's Jesus at you on the subject of Heaven already?

I already read the book of Luke.

I would choose yes, but not it the normal way of thinking things. I've heard god referred to as both he and she in this thread, but probably it's not either. If such an omnipotent being did exist, (which it would have to be) I seriously doubt any possible constraint's of "gender" is placed on it, or any other. It wouldn't really have any physical form. Furthermore, would there really be any "letting this happen" (boy was that heard alot after 9/11)? If such an omnipotent being did exist, and it created the entire universe, would it really care about the going ons of one little infentesimal blip of a planet in the infiniteness of the cosmos. It may sound heartless, and it may start to sound deist, but thats what makes the most sense to me.

And yes, for anyone who noticed, this does sound alot like that book "God's Debris" by Scott Adams (yes the guy who does dilbert). I agree find a lot of the stuff in there makes more sense than any religion around. Except for the actual debris part. That's starting to go a bit off the deep end.

Thinking about these things to hard might be what makes some people turn agnostic. :headbang: :confused:

God's presence is evident in the actions of human beings. Those who choose to act selflessly when they have the option of selfishness fly in the face of nihilistic thinkers like Nietzsche, who thought that God was a societal imposition. To a nihilist, logically, people should feel utterly unfulfilled by selfless acts. But many people choose to be kind out of complete faith in something bigger than themselves, and are completely content to do so. This "illogical" behavior is far more convincing an argument for the existence of God than your dogmatic allegiance to a book that was compiled by dozens of writers over a two thousand year period.
Actually, humans take pleasure in selfless acts because the vast majority are basically sadomasochists. They enjoy cheating themselves by giving more to others on the masochist side, and enjoy causing pain to others in many cases on the sadist one. Hedonist nihilism = teh win.

Of course there's a god. Look around you. Do you honestly think evolution created this complexity? The way your brain works, the way atoms works, the way DNA works. If you ever get into advanced mathematics, statistically, there is a god. The probability of not having one is slim to none.
Huh? All of the complexity you refer to is inherent in nature. The double helix is no more proof of a god than the Bible.


Also, the Bible is not a work of fiction. True, man did write it... but with the guidance of God. Do you think that God, being all powerful, the master of the universe and all things in it, would let someone mess up the one and only window to Him? Of course not. He's in more control than that. He PICKED people to write it because of their honestly, their style, whatever, but HE PICKED them.
Well, then S/He did a really shitty job at it, considering how full of contradictions and paradoxes it ends up being. Contradictions which would point more to a work of literature amassed by word of mouth from generation to generation.


And yes, He does deserve you're worship for those who think there is a God but doesn't deserve our worship. If not for Him, you wouldn't be here. He created you out of love. He didn't have to. But he did.
Love which S/He then shows for us by sending the vast majority to hell for unexplained sins and creating disease, war, sin, natural disasters, and suchlike to plague the rest of us.


That's just my opinion on this matter. I felt I had to reply because I was shocked by the amount of people who didn't believe in God. It's actually painful.
Not for me it isn't.

I'm seeing a lot of "Why would God let this happen?" First, God KNOWS there will be war and death. He knows it! That's the whole reason for religion. And we must remember, we are not in the Garden of Eden anymore, and this isn't Walgreens! Just kidding. But this isn't a perfect world. But stuff happens. Death happens. Wars happen. Terrorist attacks happen. Car bombs happen. Suffering happens. In Eden, it didn't. But we're not in Eden anymore. We kind of screwed that up for ourselves.

Well, then S/He did a really shitty job at it, considering how full of contradictions and paradoxes it ends up being. Contradictions which would point more to a work of literature amassed by word of mouth from generation to generation.


Of what contradictions do you speak of?

I would choose yes, but not it the normal way of thinking things. I've heard god referred to as both he and she in this thread, but probably it's not either. If such an omnipotent being did exist, (which it would have to be) I seriously doubt any possible constraint's of "gender" is placed on it, or any other. It wouldn't really have any physical form. Furthermore, would there really be any "letting this happen" (boy was that heard alot after 9/11)? If such an omnipotent being did exist, and it created the entire universe, would it really care about the going ons of one little infentesimal blip of a planet in the infiniteness of the cosmos. It may sound heartless, and it may start to sound deist, but thats what makes the most sense to me.
That makes the most sense among this thread's theists so far, congratulations.

However, according to the Bible God confined himself to Earth, dealing with the machinations of incredibly insignificant tribes over a tiny sliver of history not more than a few Multiversal Nanoseconds in length. Which doesn't actually seem all that logical to me... much like George W. Bush spending most of his time playing with an ant farm.

Of what contradictions do you speak of?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413245

Does this help?

So where did the 1st humans come from?

It was a gradual process. Shocking though it may be, overwhelming evidence shows that we evolved gradually from early primates. This particular primate, however, is no longer in existence, having died out and variations on its form (which appeared over time due to multiple selection pressures forcing different alleles to be expressed more frequently) lived on and continued to evolve along separate pathways. That's where the various species of monkeys and apes come from, that's where humans come from. We did not simply appear as humans from the very start.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413245

Does this help?
And here's another link. (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html)

It was a gradual process. Shocking though it may be, overwhelming evidence shows that we evolved gradually from early primates. This particular primate, however, is no longer in existence, having died out and variations on its form (which appeared over time due to multiple selection pressures forcing different alleles to be expressed more frequently) lived on and continued to evolve along separate pathways. That's where the various species of monkeys and apes come from, that's where humans come from. We did not simply appear as humans from the very start.

Shocking as it may seem, we did not evolve from early primates. Sorry but the missing links are not there to show that we evolved from primates. The ones that did turned out to be false.

Sorry but the primate theory is a dead one.

Of what contradictions do you speak of?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

That's one example. It would seem that Joseph has two fathers. Loads more here >> http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html

That makes the most sense among this thread's theists so far, congratulations.

However, according to the Bible God confined himself to Earth, dealing with the machinations of incredibly insignificant tribes over a tiny sliver of history not more than a few Multiversal Nanoseconds in length. Which doesn't actually seem all that logical to me... much like George W. Bush spending most of his time playing with an ant farm.

Lol. I actually don't claim to know god's gender, if god has one. However, I use the pronoun "she" often because that sounds nicer than "it" to me, and it might annoy some x-tian fundamentalists.

Basically, I just resolve the question of "how can god be both omnipotent and benevolent" by deciding that god must not be omnipotent. Some people might find a non-omnipotent god to be "powerless" but I think that would be an exaggeration. I don't think god needs to be all powerful. And even if god was, I agree in that I don't think paying attention to earth all the time would be the most responsible use of time.

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUKE 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

That's one example. It would seem that Joseph has two fathers. Loads more here >> http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html

Ever thought Language may have something to do with it? Also, nice use of an athiest website :rolleyes:

"I dont want to start any blasphemous rumours/
but I think that God's got a sick sense of humor/
and when I die I expect to find Him laughing"
Depeche Mode

Ever thought Language may have something to do with it? Also, nice use of an athiest website :rolleyes:
OMG NOEZ! IT HAS INFIDEL IN THE DOMAIN NAME!!!! IT IS TEH ATHEIST PROPAGANDA! PH33R!!!!1111



:rolleyes:

Why don't you take out your Bible now and look up those lines? You'll see each one there, word for word, contradicting each other as plain as day.

Or are you going to ignore me because I'm an atheist and thus all of my logic is flawed?

The second site was more helpful. I haven't looked over them all, but the few that I have, I will say that you must put them in context. It's easy to put versus down and say they contradict each other. Read around them. Sometimes you'll see special circumstances arise.

Another common error is saying versus in the Old Testament contradict the New. That's okay if you're a Christian. Jesus came and set down new rules. That's how I like to put it. He took a lot of the needed rituals out and basically said you don't have to do them.

Let me look over these some and I'll get back to you. I'll post again.

Shocking as it may seem, we did not evolve from early primates. Sorry but the missing links are not there to show that we evolved from primates. The ones that did turned out to be false.

Sorry but the primate theory is a dead one.

I'm sorry, what missing links? There are discoveries, every year, of yet another form of early human. Many discoveries are made across the range of species, finding more 'missing links' that you people rely on so heavily as 'proof' that evolution didn't happen Here's an example. For a while now, theists have cited the 'fact' that, due to the absence of any fossil evidence of an amphibious intermediate species between fish and land creatures, the idea that fish gradually made their way onto land is void. However, a new fossil has been discovered. A REAL fossil, I add. this is of a fish-like creature which has fin-like appendages which contain bone structures very similar to those of land animas - there is even a crude 'wrist' formation, which is absent in purely sea-dwelling fish. This suggests the creature was able to crawl on land. Bone structure also suggests that is was able to breath out of water. It has filled in the 'missing link and strengthened the scientific theory of evolution. This also happened when fossils of 'feathered dinosaurs' with bird-like bones were discovered, providing a link between the lizards and birds.

We are getting ever closer to doing the same for the human species... in fact, we already have a series of fossils that show a gradual progression from ape-like creatures which walked almost on all fours to the upright humans of today. However, clearly the idea of 'decomposition' means nothing to you. Bones, when buried for millions of years under earth and rock, have a tendancy to become fragile, so the fossils of early creatures are extremely rare. However, that doesn't make them non-existant.

Ever thought Language may have something to do with it?
That's what they said you would say:
Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:
1. "That is to be taken metaphorically" In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD - which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want...

2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b", so they decide there was "a" AND "b" -which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b". But it doesn't say there was "a+b+litle green martians". This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e. only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses.

3. "It has to be understood in context" I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set is suppose to be taken as THE TRUTH when if you add more to it it suddenly becomes "out of context". How many of you have goten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown up at you?

4. "there was just a copying/writing error" This is sometimes called a "transcription error", as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or that what was "quoted" wasn't really what was said, but just what the author thought was said when he thought it was said. And that's right - I'm not disagreeing with events, I'm disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the bible itself is wrong. <--- The fact that the Bible was translated over 2,000 times does not necessarily explain the fact that Jesus has three different sets of last words, all of them highly dissimilar in meaning. I don't see how one can mistake "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" for "It is finished", even in Aramaic.

5. "That is a miracle". Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.

6. "God works in mysterious ways" A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.

Ever thought Language may have something to do with it? Also, nice use of an athiest website :rolleyes:

Don't worry, I don't post religious quotes without first consulting my copy of the Gideon's New Testament and Psalms. Unlike you, it would seem, I like to research other points of view. Atheists can and do read religious texts. It's called 'backing up with evidence', something the scientific types like myself do all the time.

I actually have twoicopies of the new testament. One of them bears the disclaimer:
"This book discusses god. The existence of entities with supernatural powers is controversia, and many believe that myths, especially other people's myths, are fictional. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."

I believe the Bible and what it says. I will not go by those who do not have religion.

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

That's one example. It would seem that Joseph has two fathers. Loads more here >> http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html

You are right. They seem to be different. But let me offer an explanation. Sometimes, people do geneology charts differently. That's what happened with Matthew's account and Luke's. They simply did them differently. Matthew traces legal descent through the House of David (kind of like royalty). Luke on the other hand does it completely by blood. That is one explanation.

*snip*

You can believe this tripe you like. Me? I'll take God's view over those of the evolutionists.

Don't worry, I don't post religious quotes without first consulting my copy of the Gideon's New Testament and Psalms. Unlike you, it would seem, I like to research other points of view. Atheists can and do read religious texts. it's called 'backing up with evidence', something the scientific types do all the time.

Unlike Athiests, I actually believe in God. Unlike Atheists, I know where I"m going when I die.

A colour is an attribute of a particular object.

Is it?
Then why do some people see colors differently than other people?

Yes, you may say that there are 4 objects. The diagonal of an 1X1 square is root2 CM. Fine. But that is just taking an abstract quantity and applying it to the real world. You're using only a portion of mathematics to describe reality. Not the same thing as observation.

"portion of mathematics"?
What would "the whole of mathematics" be?

Ok. You're arguing that all mathematics is observed in the real world. Then you point to an object that has sides of length root(-1).

I'm arguing that sometimes numbers are an attribute of the real world.

know where you go when you die?
you're a rotting corpse in the ground...yay *sigh*

Wow I'm tired of religious zealots. I was actually suprised when I pressed no for this poll that so many people do not believe in god. I feel that religion will slowly die in developed countries over the next century.. not that it bothers me or anything.

know where you go when you die?
you're a rotting corpse in the ground...yay *sigh*

I don't believe that.

I'm telling you, Christianity is just Stockholm syndrome writ large.

It's like watching a bunch of battered wives explain how he really does love them, he just beats them because they make him angry. "He's not really a bad guy, he loves me! He just has a temper. I know he wants what's best for us, it's just that I am so wicked. I shouldn't provoke him. And the kids really should learn to keep quiet when Daddy is around. He wouldn't hit us if he didn't care about us so much. He really does love us."

:)
Either that, or Christianity is accepting that going to the doctor is for your own good, even if you get jabbed with a needle now an then.
We won't know which until we die, and maybe not even then depending on the answer.

I don't believe that.

hrmmm, I guess corpses are just immaginary and cemetarys are meaningless

*shrug*

Corneliu, it's impossible to argue with you because you refuse to listen to any logical viewpoint except for your own blind faith. You give a bad name to all the more tolerant Christians out there who are actually willing to consider points of view other than their own. I hope you're not too far gone to disregard my post completely just because I'm a devil-worshipping, baby-killing, heretical, ungodly, hellbound infidel according to your view of things. :rolleyes:

Farewell, thread.

I believe that if there is a god in charge of everything they're not doing a very good job.

That would depend on what the job is.
If God's job is to cater to everybody and make everybody happy, then he is indeed apparently doing a poor job.
But who says that's God's job?

Even if there is a god, how do you know you're worshipping the right one(s)?

You don't.
You just take a guess, based on whatever feels right and/or whatever makes the most sense. There's no guarantee that you're right.

I already read the book of Luke.
Then do you know about the way the phrases Heaven and Kingdom of God are used in that book?

"Preach the Kingdom of God."
- Chapters 4, 9, 16.

Throughout Jesus's life in Luke, the Kingdom of God refers not to a place but to a way of life in spiritual accord with God.

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"
- Luke 17, v 20-21

"Then said [the Lord], Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it."
- Luke 13, v 18-19

"And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you."
- Luke 10, v 9

... to name but a few.

Heaven merely describes the aetherial location of God. There are more references to this than I care to mention.

Nowhere in Luke does Jesus ever promise that mankind will go up to be with God after death. No, he promises something far more important; that there is a spiritual unity to be gained with God here on earth as part of the Kingdom, and that through the teaching, guidance and example of Jesus is this kingdom accomplished.

Unlike Athiests, I actually believe in God. Unlike Atheists, I know where I"m going when I die.

I find this intereting. You dismiss our views as mere beliefs, despite the fact that we spent years studying evidence to reach our own conclusion, and decide that your views are 100% factual and backed up by thousands of years of tradition. Yet, when we dismiss your views in the same way, you seem completely confused by why we should do such a thing and then make the terrible comeback 'well, at least I'm going to Heaven' which means nothing to us as we don't even BELIEVE there is an afterlife.

Believe it or not, there IS such a thing as an atheist in a foxhole.

Corneliu, it's impossible to argue with you because you refuse to listen to any logical viewpoint except for your own blind faith. You give a bad name to all the more tolerant Christians out there who are actually willing to consider points of view other than their own. I hope you're not too far gone to disregard my post completely just because I'm a devil-worshipping, baby-killing, heretical, ungodly, hellbound infidel according to your view of things. :rolleyes:

Farewell, thread.

I consider other points of view however, I reject those that contradict the Bible for the Bible is God's word. If there are viewpoints that don't contradict the Bible then I will of course listen but I will not listen to contradictions of the Bible.

If they believe in evolution then they are contradicting their beliefs.

Not at all.

Then do you know about the way the phrases Heaven and Kingdom of God are used in that book?

"Preach the Kingdom of God."
- Chapters 4, 9, 16.

Throughout Jesus's life in Luke, the Kingdom of God refers not to a place but to a way of life in spiritual accord with God.

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation, Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you"
- Luke 17, v 20-21

"Then said [the Lord], Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it."
- Luke 13, v 18-19

"And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you."
- Luke 10, v 9

... to name but a few.

Heaven merely describes the aetherial location of God. There are more references to this than I care to mention.

Nowhere in Luke does Jesus ever promise that mankind will go up to be with God after death. No, he promises something far more important; that there is a spiritual unity to be gained with God here on earth as part of the Kingdom, and that through the teaching, guidance and example of Jesus is this kingdom accomplished.

Oh my friend. It is in there. Your just a skeptic who cannot see that it is infact in there.

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

In this particular chapter of Exodus, war was necessary. It's often viewed that God would lead His people into war, but God and only God would win in. Metaphorically, you could look at this as the battle between good and evil.

Now in Romans, which is in the New Testament (again emphasizing the differences), we are in a new relationship with God. Some view it that once we were His enemies (because we sinned) but now we are His friends. Christ talks a lot about peace and spreading the good word.

I don't believe that.


My 3 year old nephew stoped believing in santa claus this christmas, there is still hope for you, don't worry :p

Not at all.

If they are contradicting God's word then how can they be Christians?

I consider other points of view however, I reject those that contradict the Bible for the Bible is God's word. If there are viewpoints that don't contradict the Bible then I will of course listen but I will not listen to contradictions of the Bible.

That's exactly what she's saying - you are going entirely by blind faith. You make two assumptions: 1) that God exists and 2) that the Bible is accurate. Your reasoning is as follows:

'God exists because the Bible says he does, and the Bible is accurate because God told people exactly what to write'.

That's circular logic, with the accuracy of the Bible depending on the existence of God and vice versa. Taking other peoples' points of view into account means listening to and considering them ALL, not just the ones that agree with what you believe. Otherwise, there is essentially no debate.

Genesis 1:26-28-->The God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the either, and over all the creatures thatmove along the ground." 27)So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28)God blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

In chapter 2 it does say that man came from the dust of the ground and breathed into us the breath of life. So in essence, yea we did come from nothing for God created us out of the earth.

Or, when God was dictating, He just summed up the process of humanity evolving over millions of years, starting off as tiny, tiny single-celled organisms (kind of like living dust particles, as far as some BC shepard is concerned), and eventually becoming humans as we know today.

Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

It is thought that Mary Magdalene, Mary Mother of Jesus, and a woman named Salome went to the tomb. Just because they aren't named doesn't mean they don't go. And the verse from John, Mary Magdelene would have been a figure of influence because she brought the word back to them that Jesus resurrected. She is the point of interest here.

Oh my friend. It is in there. Your just a skeptic who cannot see that it is infact in there.
*Places mirror up in front of post*

The Kingdom of God and Heaven were never meant to be considered one and the same. Luke is clear on that.

Your job is to do the former. Striving to attain the latter is mere selfish arrogance and will get you nowhere.

I am a pretty settled atheist, and very little will persuade me that God in the bible form exists. I'm also kinda sceptical about religion as a whole. I mean look at the extremists :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: ......
Well anyways, here goes my favourite quote on the subject of God:
"I don't know if God exists, but there's certainly someone out there trying to get me".

:)

If they are contradicting God's word then how can they be Christians?

If they were, then they wouldn't be.
But the Bible is not the word of God, it's the word of men who are trying to understand mankind's relationship with God, and to interpret divine events.

After you've experienced the holy spirit in person it removes most of your doubts.

Deffinite and unflappable yes.

If they were, then they wouldn't be.
But the Bible is not the word of God, it's the word of men who are trying to understand mankind's relationship with God, and to interpret divine events.

Maybe we're taking different views on this but God selected the men who would write the Bible. He writes through them. He inspires them. I feel that the men who wrote understood very well man's relationship with God. Were you taught differrently? J/w.

After you've experienced the holy spirit in person it removes most of your doubts.

Deffinite and unflappable yes.

If so, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit reveal itself more often?

The Holy Sprit reveals itself all the time, but people have to be open to it.

I was agnostic for a long time, but that all recently changed. In the past few months I've had some amazing experiences where I do not believe it is possible that it was only by chance. I could go into detail but that will take too long. Anyway, yes God exists. Absolutely. The Holy Spirit is at work.

Or, when God was dictating, He just summed up the process of humanity evolving over millions of years, starting off as tiny, tiny single-celled organisms (kind of like living dust particles, as far as some BC shepard is concerned), and eventually becoming humans as we know today.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful.

If they were, then they wouldn't be.
But the Bible is not the word of God, it's the word of men who are trying to understand mankind's relationship with God, and to interpret divine events.

Ah but it is the word of God.

I believe god exists, but I believe the bible is hogwash, and the church is a bunch of corrupt people in power for no reason.

OP: If only the people who deserved to die would die unnatural deaths, there would be no point in life - you could tell whether or not you would die by how you treated people. You could rely on an absolute rule that didn't ever change. There's no such thing as an absolute rule in the universe - there's almost always an exception.

God made the world to be a pandora's box of possibility - everything and anything could happen, and that's how he likes it. We simply have to realize everything is in our hands, and take responsibility.

He watches us and empathizes with us, like an infinitely more intense version of a really good TV show where you can see everything every character is doing, why, when, for what, what they're thinking while they're doing it, what led up to it, and still at the same time know what's going to happen without ruining the enjoyment of the show.

Once we die, we join him regardless of what kind of person we've been - even the boring people are needed. Even NPC's are a requirement for video games. Extras are a requirement for movies.

It's possible there's some kind of purification or realization that overcomes everyone once they join him, so any murderous and/or violent or negative feelings are destroyed so it's possible for everyone to live in perfect harmony, under the eternal symbol of peace, love, understanding and forgiveness.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful.

...Wait... that person was trying to explain how the Bible culd actually be accurate and science could easily fit in with it, and you deny it? I sense you are most certainly not a liberal Christian.

If so, then why doesn't the Holy Spirit reveal itself more often?

Because it is only revealed to those who have full faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful.

Considering that there are at least two very different Creation stories in Genesis, in which things happen in very different orders, you either have to see them as allegory or see one or the other of them as wrong.

Tell me, when were animals created? Before or after human beings?

...Wait... that person was trying to explain how the Bible culd actually be accurate and science could easily fit in with it, and you deny it? I sense you are most certainly not a liberal Christian.

I'm not Liberal at all. The problem with his thesis is that the Bible in Chapter 2 states that we came from the dust of the ground. Animals were already around before God created man.

Maybe we're taking different views on this but God selected the men who would write the Bible. He writes through them. He inspires them. I feel that the men who wrote understood very well man's relationship with God. Were you taught differrently? J/w.

I wasn't taught much about it at all. Most of what I know from religion, I have learned from studying the Bible.
I don't recall the Bible saying anywhere in it that it was 100% literal truth, with no metaphors, parables, or summaries.
It's pretty clear that God isn't too big on telling us clear truths. He told Adam and Eve that they'd die the day they ate the forbidden fruit, yet they didn't.
JC told parables all the time that weren't necessarily literally true, but that were still valuable and insightful.
The Bible is the same way. Some parts are literally true, some are simply the best understanding that mankind was capable of at the time.
For example, the part about not eating swine or scale-less fish. God didn't have to detail the effects of trichanosis, or to explain that scales give fish an extra layer of protection against pollution and disease. He just summed up and said that such animals were "Unclean", which is a truth of sorts but it does not tell the whole story.
Same thing with the "God created mankind from dust" bit.

"Where did we come from?"
"You evolved from tiny microscopic beings, over the course of millions of years."
"What's 'evolved'? What's 'microscope'? What is 'millions"?"
"Let's just say that I created you from tiny creatures."
"Ants?"
"No, smaller than that."
"Dust?"
"Well, that's not a creature, but close enough for the next several thousand years."

Because it is only revealed to those who have full faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You mean instead of faith in human beings and books?

look i understand all of your points i really do. Though i have always wondered how some of you can believe that through a random chain of events the world happened or that if we sin we will be ant's in our next life’s. It takes way more faith to believe that there was no creator, then it does to believe in a God. I commend you for that (not your choice of faith just how much belief in it you have)

What people believe often works for them. Up until a point. Like when many still thought the earth was flat. That worked for them, did it not? Until Columbus. Lets say there was no Columbus what would have happened if people had tried to go to the moon believing the earth was flat? Believes that are false will eventually brake down and you don't want what your believing to be false correct?

Now lets get to work,

Hinduism
-the universe is simply and extension of a force called Brahman
-Brahman is eternal so the universe is eternal
First problem
How does that match up with what the astronomers say
All evidence points to a beginning about 15 billion years ago
(Is the number just wrong?)
Now here’s a bit for you science brains out there: In a closed system everything will eventually come to a stop. So if the universe is eternal then why are there new galaxies and stars forming?
-Braham is amoral (nothing is right or wrong)
Second problem
Each of our societies has complex moral codes
What makes things right or wrong?
We do
But if we are and extension of Braham we are amoral
-Personality is an illusion
Third problem
What we value most about ourselves is an illusion
How did and impersonal force bring forth such intricate and different beings


Buddhism
-Reality is abstract void called Nirvana
-to reach Nirvana you much stamp out all desire in yourself
First problem
Once again impersonal being creating very personal beings with great since and desire and the goal in life is to have no desire
Our bodies were made to feel great desire and pleasure
-once you’ve reached Nirvana all suffering ends
Just a thought
This religion was founded in a time of great suffering. Do you think that it’s possible Buddha was trying to explain the suffering and therefore created a religion based on the alleviating of suffering?

Islam
-God spoke to Mohammed
First problem
Mohammed after “hearing from God” had many bouts of suicidal thoughts
Built a following based on military conquest
Married a nine year old
Murdered his enemies
All this according to Muslim writings including Sirat Rasul Allah and The
History of al-Tabari
Argument: An outsider cloud say the same about Christianity. Though it was not one writer is was over 40 authors spanning 15000 years (that argues for a divine creator)
-Mohammed wrote that Jesus was never crucified
Second problem
Many non-Christian historians document the death as well
there is almost no debate about whether or not the crucifixion happened
-No personal relationship with Allah
Third problem
Humanities greatest desire is to be loved
None but God can ever truly satisfy that desire to be loved
Muslims have no hope of this

No faith (big bang, atheist, whatever else says there’s no god)
-the big bang created the universe
First problem
Odds: 1 in a hundred billion to the one hundred twenty third power
(that’s without the odds of complex life as we have)
Study cosmology and you will find the need for a creator

Ah but it is the word of God.

What makes you think that?

Considering that there are at least two very different Creation stories in Genesis, in which things happen in very different orders, you either have to see them as allegory or see one or the other of them as wrong.

Tell me, when were animals created? Before or after human beings?

Actually, there is only 1 creation story in Genesis.

This site that was given to me... most of this is taken out of context or read wrong. For instance....
Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The second set of versus... if you read, God doesn't create the animals for the VERY first time. No, that's done in Gensis chapter 1. He's merely bringing the animals to Adam.

Because it is only revealed to those who have full faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Oh, right, of course. It only reveals itself to convince people of the existence of a God they already believe in firmly. Why didn't I see that? How silly of me.

What makes you think that?

"In the beginning there was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

I wasn't taught much about it at all. Most of what I know from religion, I have learned from studying the Bible.
I don't recall the Bible saying anywhere in it that it was 100% literal truth, with no metaphors, parables, or summaries.
It's pretty clear that God isn't too big on telling us clear truths. He told Adam and Eve that they'd die the day they ate the forbidden fruit, yet they didn't.
JC told parables all the time that weren't necessarily literally true, but that were still valuable and insightful.
The Bible is the same way. Some parts are literally true, some are simply the best understanding that mankind was capable of at the time.
For example, the part about not eating swine or scale-less fish. God didn't have to detail the effects of trichanosis, or to explain that scales give fish an extra layer of protection against pollution and disease. He just summed up and said that such animals were "Unclean", which is a truth of sorts but it does not tell the whole story.
Same thing with the "God created mankind from dust" bit.

"Where did we come from?"
"You evolved from tiny microscopic beings, over the course of millions of years."
"What's 'evolved'? What's 'microscope'? What is 'millions"?"
"Let's just say that I created you from tiny creatures."
"Ants?"
"No, smaller than that."
"Dust?"
"Well, that's not a creature, but close enough for the next several thousand years."


That's cool. I just wondered. I do agree that some parts are to be taken literally and some metaphorically. Unfortunately, others don't and this makes it easier for others to point out 'mistakes' of the Bible. Anyways, God Bless.

Doubtful. Highly doubtful.
It's either that, or the Bible is just flat wrong.
It's extremely clear that evolution is a fact.

Sure, you might make the claim that all other animals were created through evolution, but humans were created *poof* from dirt.
But what kind of sense does that make?
God creates the universe in such a way that evolution occurs, and God uses evolution to create zillions of animals, then... what? He gets lazy and decides to use magic?
I don't buy it.

I'm not Liberal at all. The problem with his thesis is that the Bible in Chapter 2 states that we came from the dust of the ground. Animals were already around before God created man.

Not according to Genesis 2:18-19

18 Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’ 19So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Lookie here! God created animals *after* man (and before woman - go figure).

Actually, there is only 1 creation story in Genesis.

Nope, there are pretty clearly two. People have tried for quite a while to "mesh" them into one, but they never were a single account.

Oh, right, of course. It only reveals itself to convince people of the existence of a God they already believe in firmly. Why didn't I see that? How silly of me.

He who accepts Jesus receives his Holy Spirit but those that do not accept Jesus will not have it.

"In the beginning there was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

How does that make the claim that the Bible is specifically the word of God? Any more than any other book?

I don't recall the Bible saying anywhere in it that it was 100% literal truth, with no metaphors, parables, or summaries.
very true
It's pretty clear that God isn't too big on telling us clear truths. He told Adam and Eve that they'd die the day they ate the forbidden fruit, yet they didn't.
incorect they did die, they died both in spirit and physicaly. Before when there was no sin in the world they would have lived in the graden forever but becasue of sin they would die one day. Also the conection with God being gone there spirts in sort died as well.

Not according to Genesis 2:18-19

18 Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’ 19So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Lookie here! God created animals *after* man (and before woman - go figure).



Nope, there are pretty clearly two. People have tried for quite a while to "mesh" them into one, but they never were a single account.

Oh lookie, this was already pointed out that THEY WERE BROUGHT TO ADAM. They were already around but God brought the animals TO HIM!

"In the beginning there was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

"In the beginning there was the snort, and the snort was with Urkel and the snort was Urkel. He was with Urkel in the beginning. Through him all things wer emade; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness but the darkness has not understood it."

It's bullhonkey, but it could be just as easily believed. Obviously Urkel is not god.

It does you no good to answer a question of why you believe something with a quote from the thing he doesn't believe in.

How does that make the claim that the Bible is specifically the word of God? Any more than any other book?

It does so because God inspired the people who wrote the bible. The Word was always with God. It was with him from the very beginning.

I've always taken this stance of evolution. God created a bunch of animals and humans around 5,000 years ago. Some animals died; some mutated and became new animals. Anything before 5,000 years, I believe is temptation. But evolution does exist. There are plenty of examples that have happened in the past century alone! Evolution and God do not conflict in this way.

I don't recall the Bible saying anywhere in it that it was 100% literal truth, with no metaphors, parables, or summaries.
very true
It's pretty clear that God isn't too big on telling us clear truths. He told Adam and Eve that they'd die the day they ate the forbidden fruit, yet they didn't.

Actually, if you want to get right down to it, they actually did die.

incorect they did die, they died both in spirit and physicaly. Before when there was no sin in the world they would have lived in the graden forever but becasue of sin they would die one day. Also the conection with God being gone there spirts in sort died as well.

Pretty much accurate.

Interestingly enough, God also created Adam before any plants, also from Genesis 2:

In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground,* and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. 8And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9Out of the ground the Lord God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But wait, you ask, didn't God create the plants and the animals and everything before humankind, with humankind as the last of Creation, as described in Genesis 1? Well, it certainly claims that the plants sprung up on Day 3, and humankind wasn't around 'til Day 6. Weird, eh?

And no, you can't argue a difference between the plants described here and those of the field, because Genesis 1:12 is clear:

Then God said, ‘Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.’ And it was so. 12The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good.

*Every* kind of plant, according to Genesis 1, came before humankind. According to Genesis 2, Adam was created *before* plants, because God needed someone to till the land first.

Oh lookie, this was already pointed out that THEY WERE BROUGHT TO ADAM. They were already around but God brought the animals TO HIM!

That isn't what it says, my dear.

Let me quote it again:

18 Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’ 19So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.


It doesn't say, "Let me bring the animals that I already made before." Nope, it says, "I will make him a helper as his partner." Will make, as in, "haven't already made." Then it clearly states that, because Adam already needed a partner, the Lord God formed every animal of the field and bird of the air.

It doesn't say, "I made these before and now I'm going to check and see if they fit." Nope. It says "I have just noticed that my newly made man needs a helper. I'm gonna make him one."

So in essence, yea we did come from nothing for God created us out of the earth.

Dirt isn't "nothing." Dirt is something. Creation from dirt isn't creation from nothing.

Dem, I have been re-reading Chapter 2 of Genesis and apparently you need to learn how to read otherwise you would not have made the mistakes that you have just made.

I've always taken this stance of evolution. God created a bunch of animals and humans around 5,000 years ago. Some animals died; some mutated and became new animals. Anything before 5,000 years, I believe is temptation. But evolution does exist. There are plenty of examples that have happened in the past century alone! Evolution and God do not conflict in this way.

Untrue. It is because of science that we even know of Evolution, and using the basis of certain animals being much much older than other animals (by billions of years), using carbon dating, that Evolution is even possible.

Really one of the biggest backers of Evolution -is- carbon dating, which states that things are much much older than 5000 years.

*SNIP*

Genesis Chapter 2 verse 19: "Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. HE BROUGHT THEM TO THE MAN to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."

He brought the animals to him. They were already created before he created Adam. have a nice day.

Ok. All well and good. But how do you explain that these "evil" things do occur? What are God's justifications for doing such things? As S/He's obviously so almighty and everything, why does S/He allow war, sin, natural disasters, and suchlike to exist?

Why are natural disasters evil? Is the fact that we die evil? Furthermore, is every cause of death "evil?" That being the case, birth itself is "evil" as it is the cause of someone dying.

I've gone over this time and again with Neo Rogolia and all I could get out of it was that God appears to be a rather twisted egomaniac who likes designing intricate paradoxical problems and testing them upon living subjects. Perhaps I have the wrong impression here, but meh.

Once again, I ask you: what is "evil?" Until you can define evil, there cannot be fruitful discussion. In logical argumentation, terms must be defined, and in regards to discussions about God, there are words thrown around left and right so often that they've become ambiguous or have a million different meanings. Define evil for me.

Untrue. It is because of science that we even know of Evolution, and using the basis of certain animals being much much older than other animals (by billions of years), using carbon dating, that Evolution is even possible.

Really one of the biggest backers of Evolution -is- carbon dating, which states that things are much much older than 5000 years.

Yes, you're right. But, I believe the earth was created 5,000 years ago, about. Everything else, dinosaurs, neanderthals, homo erectus, it ws all put here by Satan to try to manipulate our thoughts.

I understand your point. You have data to back it up. But my religion is not based on data. EVERYONE will believe data if presented to them. My religion is based on what you cannot see. No, my faith is based on what you cannot see.

Dem, I have been re-reading Chapter 2 of Genesis and apparently you need to learn how to read otherwise you would not have made the mistakes that you have just made.

My dear, I quoted the words themselves. Granted, they are all translations, but I can't read Hebrew, and I'm guessing you can't either.

They can't be mistakes, as they are clearly in the text. I even bolded them.


Genesis Chapter 2 verse 19: "Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. HE BROUGHT THEM TO THE MAN to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."

He brought the animals to him. They were already created before he created Adam. have a nice day.

How interesting. A different translation. I wonder which is correct. I know that my version was translated directly from the Hebrew to English, complete with footnotes on commonly disputed passages (no footnote for this one, interestingly enough). How about yours?

Wait, so, if things can be mistranslated, how do you know your translation is the correct one?

Edit: Meanwhile, what does your translation say about the plants? Does it completely omit the passage about how they didn't exist until after Adam because God didn't plant them until he had someone to till the field?

I voted yes, but only because I have experienced the universal consciousness.

You can call it God, I suppose but it it certainly not the God in the Bible.

Those calling Gahd a he (or she) or thinking that God would ever think, feel or behave like a human is vanity of the highest order.

Also thinking Gahd wants worship is laughable.

There is an organizing consciousness that is present in all energy (and EVERYTHING is energy).

If you want to blame or shame God for the pain someone suffered in their life (or deny Gahds existence because of it) that is up to you, but personally I think it is a very silly thing to do.

The Gahd I know has no cares how a person acts during their life, how much pain or joy they have experienced, or what age they die and under what circumstances said death is brought.

I vote yes.

My dear, I quoted the words themselves. Granted, they are all translations, but I can't read Hebrew, and I'm guessing you can't either.

They can't be mistakes, as they are clearly in the text. I even bolded them.



How interesting. A different translation. I wonder which is correct. I know that my version was translated directly from the Hebrew to English, complete with footnotes on commonly disputed passages (no footnote for this one, interestingly enough). How about yours?

Wait, so, if things can be mistranslated, how do you know your translation is the correct one?

Edit: Meanwhile, what does your translation say about the plants? Does it completely omit the passage about how they didn't exist until after Adam because God didn't plant them until he had someone to till the field?

Continuing on this point, anyone who wants to see various translations of the Bible should head on over to Biblegateway.com. There are a LOT of different translations. From what I see, Cornelieu either has one of the New International Versions or the Darby translation... unlikely, as it refers to 'Jehovah' and not 'God', while Dempublicents1 and I have access to the King James version or one of all the other English-language versions listed, which seem to agree with it (e.g. The Contemporary English version: So the LORD took some soil and made animals and birds...).

Actually, there is only 1 creation story in Genesis.
Grave_n_Idle has established myriad occasion that what you just said isn't particuarly accurate. You do disservice both to yourself and others by insisting otherwise. Even moreso since you've probably alread read that in more than one instance.

Grave_n_Idle has established myriad occasion that what you just said isn't particuarly accurate. You do disservice both to yourself and others by insisting otherwise. Even moreso since you've probably alread read that in more than one instance.

I already showed that there is only 1 creation in the Bible.

I already showed that there is only 1 creation in the Bible.
...and Grave_n_Idle= already showed otherwise. Between the two of you, i would be forced to trust his experience more. For example, take a piece or two out of the dialogue involving Grave_n_Idle, Muravyets, and Tropical Sands vs. Bruarong and DubyaGoat on the "Pagan Influences in Christianity" thread. There's more than enough material to keep you going there.
Or Heikoku's "C'mon get me, pseudo-christians" thread.
Or any number of long enough other ones.


BTW, you still haven't answered that query i gave you a month or two back now. :(

...and Grave_n_Idle= already showed otherwise. Between the two of you, i would be forced to trust his experience more. For example, take a piece or two out of the dialogue involving Grave_n_Idle, Muravyets, and Tropical Sands vs. Bruarong and DubyaGoat on the "Pagan Influences in Christianity" thread. There's more than enough material to keep you going there.
Or Heikoku's "C'mon get me, pseudo-christians" thread.
Or any number of long enough other ones.


BTW, you still haven't answered that query i gave you a month or two back now. :(

The Bible is the Truth. As to that, I've been busy.

...and Grave_n_Idle= already showed otherwise. Between the two of you, i would be forced to trust his experience more. For example, take a piece or two out of the dialogue involving Grave_n_Idle, Muravyets, and Tropical Sands vs. Bruarong and DubyaGoat on the "Pagan Influences in Christianity" thread. There's more than enough material to keep you going there.
Or Heikoku's "C'mon get me, pseudo-christians" thread.
Or any number of long enough other ones.


BTW, you still haven't answered that query i gave you a month or two back now. :(

straughn, since you brought up heikoku's thread, do you remember the user justifidians?

My dear, I quoted the words themselves. Granted, they are all translations, but I can't read Hebrew, and I'm guessing you can't either.

They can't be mistakes, as they are clearly in the text. I even bolded them.



How interesting. A different translation. I wonder which is correct. I know that my version was translated directly from the Hebrew to English, complete with footnotes on commonly disputed passages (no footnote for this one, interestingly enough). How about yours?

Wait, so, if things can be mistranslated, how do you know your translation is the correct one?

Edit: Meanwhile, what does your translation say about the plants? Does it completely omit the passage about how they didn't exist until after Adam because God didn't plant them until he had someone to till the field?

genesis 2:19 -

ַיִּצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים מִן-הָאֲדָמָה, כָּל-חַיַּת הַשָּׂדֶה וְאֵת כָּל-עוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וַיָּבֵא אֶל-הָאָדָם, לִרְאוֹת מַה-יִּקְרָא-לוֹ; וְכֹל אֲשֶׁר יִקְרָא-לוֹ הָאָדָם נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, הוּא שְׁמוֹ

translated as - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man would call every living creature, that was to be the name thereof.

i took hebrew for three years and suprisingly i remember most of it...

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?


I belive these are the times that you have to belive in god the most. He doesn't let people die, he takes them from this earth (and abusive boyfriend) and takes them to a place where they can no longer be hurt. Times of trouble are when god carries us, but we often feel like he has deserted us . Just belive.

The Bible is the Truth. As to that, I've been busy.
LOL! Which one, ya kidder!? :p
*playfully tags Corny's shoulder*

straughn, since you brought up heikoku's thread, do you remember the user justifidians?
Did they pervade that thread? I do remember seeing the name a few times. Why do you ask?

Did they pervade that thread? I do remember seeing the name a few times. Why do you ask?

i was just asking if you remembered because that was me...

i was just asking if you remembered because that was me...
Well, good to have you back!
So why the change in attire? ;)

God i's obviusly a creation by humans to materialize espiritualy of curse, "hope" and "belief". For example: If you know that God it's fake (just consider the case) and the end of the world it's determinated by a meteor that lost it's rute and now it's going to crash and blow the earth startind from Asia. What do you believe? o please God help me?, no, beacuse there is no one superior to you to respond your call, so people do wathever they want because the morality is gone. Beacause of that i think and i will ever think that God exists.

I simply have one question for all you athiests out there.

What created the material that was inside the big bang, or in fact the the big bang itself?

Also, don't forget about the conservation of matter and energy which states that matter nor energy can be created our destroyed.

Oops, looks like science just got hypcritical...

Oops, looks like science just got hypcritical...
...only to the people who haven't kept up on it. Perhaps you'd like to take this argument up with Kip Thorne. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.
If you want an argument with laypersons with benefits, this is the right place.
If you want to argue about loftier and more educated things with more educated and principled and focused people, go to them.

From deep in the bowels of this thread (like, page 28 or so):My God won't permit me to have faith with a capital 'F' in Him or anything else for that matter. He's told me firmly; 'Faith' is a Sin. Only through Doubt, doubt with a capital 'D' will I come closer to understanding our relationship.

And that fills me with great warmth.




*Edit: don't worry, this is my God we're talking about, here. Doesn't have any bearing on the rest of you, unless you think it's important or something...
but how can you have faith in a deity that permits none? not to slander, I am just curious, although I assume ()no offense if I am wrong) that this is a joke, but pleae, if I am wrong, I apologize, and please correct me
That's just it - I'm not permitted to have faith with a capital 'F', not in my God, nor in anything else. I'm not getting this from some book or clergyman - I've been told flat-out, by my God, personally, that to exhibit Faith is to demonstrate unequivocally that I'm falling down on the job of coming closer to understanding God and this continuum - the very reason for my corporeal existence.

Only through Doubt will I be able to seek and hopefully learn the answers to the questions that burn within and without me.

And no Der Teutoniker, this is not a joke of any sort. This is (part of) my personal spiritual fundament.

God i's obviusly a creation by humans to materialize espiritualy of curse, "hope" and "belief". For example: If you know that God it's fake (just consider the case) and the end of the world it's determinated by a meteor that lost it's rute and now it's going to crash and blow the earth startind from Asia. What do you believe? o please God help me?, no, beacuse there is no one superior to you to respond your call, so people do wathever they want because the morality is gone. Beacause of that i think and i will ever think that God exists.It sounds like you will ever live in fear that God will save you from the inevitable of the universe s/he/it put into motion and you participated in.

Well, good to have you back!
So why the change in attire? ;)

good question and its a long story, but i will sum up. i first came to the forums when somone told me about all the religious debate. so i came, but i was actually having doubts a few years before about my faith after i began studying it at university. so, i figure i would try to argue in favor of the bible, but i found that it had a lot of holes in it, which grave helped to bring to my attention. :D

so i took some time off to think and when i came back i thought it would be good to start with a fresh identity...

good question and its a long story, but i will sum up. i first came to the forums when somone told me about all the religious debate. so i came, but i was actually having doubts a few years before about my faith after i began studying it at university. so, i figure i would try to argue in favor of the bible, but i found that it had a lot of holes in it, which grave helped to bring to my attention. :DRighto! Grave is particularly adept in that fashion.
I hope you don't feel too slighted that someone else was taking advantage of your faith. A person's faith shouldn't be subject to a human control mechanism and used as such.

so i took some time off to think and when i came back i thought it would be good to start with a fresh identity...Well, do you feel better or different with the new angle?
I only hop in on occasion on the topics that have been repeated enough. I rarely dig in unless it's my thread or i have a particularly good reason to. That's why i can appreciate Sarkhaan, Peechland, Minoriteeburg, and Drunk Commies Deleted's efforts for the more imaginative threads (my apologies to anyone i missed there, which are probably quite a few).

She'll get her reward in the afterlife for her times of trouble.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

How in Hades does one register a vote to put stars of recommendation on a thread?!? :confused:

Righto! Grave is particularly adept in that fashion.
I hope you don't feel too slighted that someone else was taking advantage of your faith. A person's faith shouldn't be subject to a human control mechanism and used as such.

Well, do you feel better or different with the new angle?
I only hop in on occasion on the topics that have been repeated enough. I rarely dig in unless it's my thread or i have a particularly good reason to. That's why i can appreciate Sarkhaan, Peechland, Minoriteeburg, and Drunk Commies Deleted's efforts for the more imaginative threads (my apologies to anyone i missed there, which are probably quite a few).

well im still trying to find what i believe. i like debate because it is interesting to hear other peoples opinions. i like to debate in a way that makes me look at things from all angles so that i can get a better understanding of it....

How did this thread get to 66 pages (on my screensize) without me seeing it?

Ah man - I can't go back through 66 pages NOW.... curse you, day shift.

On the other hand... I appear after 66 pages, and find myself being mentioned all over the place, and not with daggers or wild-dogs mentioned... so... yay!

(I remember Justifidians... though not as well as I should, perhaps:)...)

...only to the people who haven't kept up on it. Perhaps you'd like to take this argument up with Kip Thorne. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.
If you want an argument with laypersons with benefits, this is the right place.
If you want to argue about loftier and more educated things with more educated and principled and focused people, go to them.

Oh, so now your not allowed to use intellectual thinking on a forum?

Oh noes!11!!

Seriously, that is just a weak attempt to disregard my post and hardly a rebuttal to it. If you can't answer it, then don't post saying that it has no meaning on this forum, and from the meaning of your post, in essence you said "I'm not smart enough to have a come back to this."

well im still trying to find what i believe. i like debate because it is interesting to hear other peoples opinions. i like to debate in a way that makes me look at things from all angles so that i can get a better understanding of it....
Well, sometimes it takes a light stab, admittedly.
For what i deem important i'll learn on my own and see what i can corroborate here. For the other stuff, i'll test people's patience. Occasionally, i'm innocuous.
I will say this place has been helpful in finding a few things. *nods emphatically*

How did this thread get to 66 pages (on my screensize) without me seeing it?

Ah man - I can't go back through 66 pages NOW.... curse you, day shift.

On the other hand... I appear after 66 pages, and find myself being mentioned all over the place, and not with daggers or wild-dogs mentioned... so... yay!

(I remember Justifidians... though not as well as I should, perhaps:)...)


:p yeah grave, i remember a long debate covering many pages about the interpretation of hebrew poetry and the meaning of sheol...

Oh, so now your not allowed to use intellectual thinking on a forum?

Oh noes!11!!

Seriously, that is just a weak attempt to disregard my post and hardly a rebuttal to it. If you can't answer it, then don't post saying that it has no meaning on this forum, and from the meaning of your post, in essence you said "I'm not smart enough to have a come back to this."
Well you can pat yourself on the back all you want newbie, especially about your wit, since you're holding yourself back with it. You want to know stuff? Go look it up. You want to know about my wit or whatever you think you're challenging right now? Go look me up in the Archives. Until that, meh.
You think your misunderstanding of rigmarole is going to take down a concept such as science? :rolleyes:
That attitude will do wonders for you. You're obviously eager. Perhaps you know who Kip Thorne is? Tell me a little about him. Then we'll see whether you actually are WORTH arguing with. So far, you are telling yourself you're a live one. I shrug at you. I meh at you. I barely finish this sentence at you.
:D

I simply have one question for all you athiests out there.

What created the material that was inside the big bang, or in fact the the big bang itself?

Also, don't forget about the conservation of matter and energy which states that matter nor energy can be created our destroyed.

Oops, looks like science just got hypcritical...

How about:

The material that was inside the Big Bang, was the material left over from the previous incarnation of the universe?

How about:

The 'catalyst' of the Big Bang was a prior incarnation of the universe collapsing in upon itself?

Thus - energy and matter are both perfectly preserved, and always have been, and always will be... no?

Next!

I simply have one question for all you athiests out there.

What created the material that was inside the big bang, or in fact the the big bang itself?

Also, don't forget about the conservation of matter and energy which states that matter nor energy can be created our destroyed.

Oops, looks like science just got hypcritical...
it was the same process that made god

so tell me. where did god come from?

:p yeah grave, i remember a long debate covering many pages about the interpretation of hebrew poetry and the meaning of sheol...

Poetry? That sounds like it might have been one of my 'Song of Solomon' kicks... :D

How about:

The material that was inside the Big Bang, was the material left over from the previous incarnation of the universe?

How about:

The 'catalyst' of the Big Bang was a prior incarnation of the universe collapsing in upon itself?

Thus - energy and matter are both perfectly preserved, and always have been, and always will be... no?

Next!

but doesnt the collapsing theory fall apart when energy begins to run out? i dont see how it would be self-sustaining...

it was the same process that made god

so tell me. where did god come from?

The question is flawed.

God didn't 'come' from anywhere... he's ALWAYS been here, he'd just fallen down behind the couch.

:)?

but doesnt the collapsing theory fall apart when energy begins to run out? i dont see how it would be self-sustaining...

Why would the energy 'run out'?

More to the point... where would it 'run' to?

If you view the universe as a 'simple harmonic motion' of expansion and collapse, our REAL WORLD experience tells us that the harmonic motion will gradually decrease... but that is ONLY because there are external forces operating on it, and the system is not 'contained'.

But for a real braintwist... what if we assume that the lifespan of each incarnation of the universe is, effectively, eternal...? So - it doesn't really matter if energy IS lost, because infinity minus one is...?

How about:

The material that was inside the Big Bang, was the material left over from the previous incarnation of the universe?

How about:

The 'catalyst' of the Big Bang was a prior incarnation of the universe collapsing in upon itself?

Thus - energy and matter are both perfectly preserved, and always have been, and always will be... no?

Next!
:eek:
Grave!!!
Sure, they're eager, but are they actually ready?!?
They're coming in swinging their ego! Oh noes!11!!

:eek:
Grave!!!
Sure, they're eager, but are they actually ready?!?
They're coming in swinging their ego! Oh noes!11!!

I had to be precision, I'm afraid... I'm so late to the thread, I've just got to build a body count...;)

I personally have no faith in this god.


However I am only a human being, therefore I cant come up with a final conclusion on whether this god exists or not.

If god really does exist and if I ever meet him/her/it, Id probably ask god what the f*ck he/she/it was thinking making this idiotic form of life/reality.

Seriously, god couldve done better.