NationStates Jolt Archive

Prove he does not exist. You can't. there is no way to disprove God. Oh God speaks to me. Not through old document or whatever, but in everyday life.

Have you met my pooka friend Harvey?

1. I've never seen god or any miraculous event.
2. There is no physical evidence for the existence of heaven or hell.
3. There is plenty of evidence backing up the theory of evolution, but there is no physical evidence backing up Adam and Eve.
4. What proof do you have of the fact that he does exist? Didn't think so.
If God said he existed and proved it to everyone, what kind of test is that? Life is a test. God wants followers who will follow Him because of his laws, not just because He's so powerful he could kill anyone - that would be following out of fear and only fear.

1. So, you have to see it to belive it?

2. Why are you looking for physical evidence if it's not physical?

3. Have you looked for any?

4. There is no definate proof either way. Life's a test and you make your own choices.

Question: Is something that does not exist worthy of worship?

Answer: No. Even empty space is more solid that nothing.

Fact: God has never spoken to anyone through anything but ancient and unverifiablt documents.

Conjecture: God was invented by the creators of these documents. God does not actually exist.

Conclusion: You should sooner worship thin air that you should worship god.
Question-you are assuming He doesn't exist there
Fact-That would be an opinion
Conjecture-That's an opinion also
Conclusion-That would be a good conclusion if God didn't exist, but what if He does? Why not ask that?

I'm familiar with the concept. That the concept exists does not make it true.

I never said it was.
My fault. I assumed that you could read.

if we screwed up the world, why should god clean it up?

Because, he created us incapable of perfection, and he know full well what was going to happen to the world. He's punishing th earth with us, it's his responsibility.

No. I mean its like saying sending someone that doesn't obey the law to jail, is immoral. But it is immoral for me to sit here and say either way that they are in heaven or in hell. I am not the Judge.

If you do not know if God's ways are moral or immoral, why do you worship God?

No. I mean its like saying sending someone that doesn't obey the law to jail, is immoral.

But if the law is wrong, isn't it immoral to send someone to jail for violating it?

Yeah, shame the Muslims, Eastern spiritualists, members of folk religions, homosexuals and sceptics get to boil alive in lakes of sulphur. :rolleyes:

I lean towards viewing people as being equal in death, not just in birth, so I treat the construct itself with contempt. Like I said, if I was religious, I would reject heaven out of principle.


well its all good and dandy that you have your beleifs and what not. I guess this whole thing is just something we'll all find out when we die. We can make it like a bet...I bet you a bacon pizza that there is a heaven and hell:p

Have you met my pooka friend Harvey?

Yes, actually.
I last saw him hanging out with Frank, Donnie's pal.

You cannot explain why a superior being would condemn billions to eternal torment simply for failure to worship that being, yet you claim that being is worthy of worship?

God does not damn us, we damn ourselves. Hell is not a place but rather the complete and utter abscence of God's love. He never stops loving us, we only choose to remove ourselves from God's love. When people die, they are taken into the presence of God and the implications of the whole of our actions from our time in temporal plain is played out before us. The good and the bad is both seen. Those who are damn are those so ashamed by their actions that they can't forgive themselves and they reject God's love. God is alway willing to forgive us, but as being endowed with free will, he will not stop us from rejecting his forgiveness.

As a Catholic, that is what I believe. The pain that we experience as a result of the ramifications of our sins being played out in front of us I would explain purgatory.

Bad things happen to good people because God does not interfere with our lives. He has on rare occasions altered the course of the whole fate of humanity (the Exodus, the Incarnation and Resurrection). However, He created us as beings with free wills and He will not infringe upon that. Our suffering is the result of human actions, not His divine will. Freedom is always paralleled by responsibility. The freedom He endowed us with thus results in our suffering.

Also, I personally believe anyone who has lived a good life can attain salvation. Many Catholics believe that those of other faiths simply have not been apostlized to in an adequate manner and that in the end, God will offer them the same salvation as we will receive. The acknowledged the same God as we did but in different ways. We consider their form of worship less correct but do not believe that they will be excluded from salvation because of accident of birth.

Because, he created us incapable of perfection, and he know full well what was going to happen to the world. He's punishing th earth with us, it's his responsibility.


ok, but perhaps that was his plan to not create us perfect. how could we ever expect to live in happiness if we have never endured pain?

Prove he does not exist. You can't. there is no way to disprove God. Oh God speaks to me. Not through old document or whatever, but in everyday life.

Hypothetically: I am gay and I have an uncontrollable urge to have intimate relationships with other men.
Conclusion: Elton John must have been speaking to me while I was doing laundry.

Let it be know to the world that from this point in time on, Elton John has officially been proven to have telephathical powers. All bow to his great holiness.

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I realize I sound completely insensitive. For this I apologize.

I never said it was.
My fault. I assumed that you could read.

Meethinks thou doth protest too much.

What then was your point?

What does the assertion that God is usually associated with perfection prove?

Eternal torment is usually associated with Hell -- yet you suggest Hell is not such a thing.

If you do not know if God's ways are moral or immoral, why do you worship God?


I have a humble human mind. I cannot comprehend everything. If I could, then i would be God. I know that God is perfect in everything. I am just saying I don't know if its right for me to judge someone here on earth. I worship God because of two things. He is the creator of everything, and he sent his perfect son to die for us. He loved me enough to do that. the least i can do is worship him

1. I've never seen god or any miraculous event.
2. There is no physical evidence for the existence of heaven or hell.
3. There is plenty of evidence backing up the theory of evolution, but there is no physical evidence backing up Adam and Eve.
4. What proof do you have of the fact that he does exist? Didn't think so.

Have you ever seen a million dollars?

God does not damn us, we damn ourselves.

when, where, why, and how?

ok, but perhaps that was his plan to not create us perfect. how could we ever expect to live in happiness if we have never endured pain?

Oh I dunno, I don't imagine a perfect world, yeah we need some standard of pain...but the kids who are in a race between dying of AIDS or dying of hunger...That's our fault? We allowed the SIV virus to mutate into a human infecting form? We created viruses in the first place?

Have you ever seen a million dollars?

ive seen a one dollar bill. and a 5, 10, 50 and 100. get enoght of those together you have 1 million...

Hypothetically: I am gay and I have an uncontrollable urge to have intimate relationships with other men.
Conclusion: Elton John must have been speaking to me while I was doing laundry.

Let it be know to the world that from this point in time on, Elton John has officially been proven to have telephathical powers. All bow to his great holiness.

-----------------------
I realize I sound completely insensitive. For this I apologize.



Right. Go ahead and mock me. I have faced worse.

Have you ever seen a million dollars?

I'm sure Bill Gates has toured his personal vault under the Swiss Bank.

Have you ever seen a million dollars?

Yes. Well, technically it wasn't in cash form it the time, but yes.

Meethinks though does protest too much.

What then was your point?

Just what I said, that the notion that God created us as playthings would conflict with the idea that God is perfect.

What does the assertion that God is usually associated with perfection prove?

Nothing. Who said it proved anything?

Eternal torment is usually associated with Hell -- yet you suggest Hell is not such a thing.

What is commonly believed may or may not be true.

Prove he does not exist. You can't. there is no way to disprove God. Oh God speaks to me. Not through old document or whatever, but in everyday life.
Prove Thor doesn't exist. You can't.

Does this also mean that the god Thor exists? Or does this logical fallacy apply only to your own god?

Originally Posted by Dakini
I don't believe it's possible to know whether any god exists or not


"Choosing doubt as a philosophy of life is akin to choosing immoblity as a means of transportation." (or something like that)

-Life of Pi

I've gotta say I totally agree with the book there, even though at the moment I don't know whether or not God exists, but I am trying to make a decisicion soon.

One thing that is really turning me away from the idea of God/Christianity is this:

In order to enter the Kingdom, you have to accept and have faith in Jesus and God. But what about those people who suffer so much that they turn away from God. Is it their fault they turned away from God, even though it was God that made them suffer in the first place? Now they live a life of suffering, and afterwards will have to suffer more in Hell, soely because they didn't belive in Him.

Oh I dunno, I don't imagine a perfect world, yeah we need some standard of pain...but the kids who are in a race between dying of AIDS or dying of hunger...That's our fault? We allowed the SIV virus to mutate into a human infecting form? We created viruses in the first place?

i have problems with suffering too. rape is my biggest problem. part of the reason i do not call myself a beleiver in god. but i dont rule out the possibility. perhaps, in gods infinite wisdom, which we could never understand in our finite minds, maybe god has a reason behind everyones suffering. we may not like it, but it might be for a higher purpose. what that is, dont ask me...

Meethinks though does protest too much.

It's actually "Me thinks she doth protest too much." - From Gertrude to Hamlet in Act III Scene 2, commenting on the "player Queen" in the play within the play. Very ironic statement from her.

Sorry, off topic.

I'm sure Bill Gates has toured his personal vault under the Swiss Bank.

Nice dodge. have you seen a million dollars.

Prove Thor doesn't exist. You can't.

Does this also mean that the god Thor exists? Or does this logical fallacy apply only to your own god?


It would be great if i could recreate that story out of the bible, about how everyone was worshipping Baal, but the one guy...don't remember who, but he made an alter and made it wet, and the Baalites made theirs all dry and they had a competition to prove which god really existed. Ended up that the Baalites lost, and the kelw dude had fire sent from the heavens to devour the alter. When was the last time Thor sent his son to die in a brutal fashion, to save all mankind. When was the last time that Thor came to me in a vision telling me what to do with my life?

Nice dodge. have you seen a million dollars.

Again, yes.

It's actually "Me thinks she doth protest too much." - From Gertrude to Hamlet in Act III Scene 2, commenting on the "player Queen" in the play within the play. Very ironic statement from her.

Sorry, off topic.

I was not quoting. I was paraphrasing (and I committed some typos).

It would be great if i could recreate that story out of the bible, about how everyone was worshipping Baal, but the one guy...don't remember who, but he made an alter and made it wet, and the Baalites made theirs all dry and they had a competition to prove which god really existed. Ended up that the Baalites lost, and the kelw dude had fire sent from the heavens to devour the alter. When was the last time Thor sent his son to die in a brutal fashion, to save all mankind. When was the last time that Thor came to me in a vision telling me what to do with my life?

When's the last time you saw any evidence that actually happened?

One thing that is really turning me away from the idea of God/Christianity is this:

In order to enter the Kingdom, you have to accept and have faith in Jesus and God. But what about those people who suffer so much that they turn away from God. Is it their fault they turned away from God, even though it was God that made them suffer in the first place? Now they live a life of suffering, and afterwards will have to suffer more in Hell, soely because they didn't belive in Him.

Go with whatever makes the most sense and fits the most facts.
That could well lead you to atheism.
For me, it simply leads me to believe that a lot of people are wrong about the nature of God.
I start with the premise that God is Good, and I go from there.

As for the whole "only those who believe in me shall go to heaven" or whatever, my view is that it only applies to Christians. Believing in Christ is an important part of Christianity, so if you're a Christian who does not believe in Christ and who does not follow him, then you're doing something very wrong.
By that same token, a good rule for Odinists would probably be "Do not follow the 10 Commandments", simply because it would be stupid to do so.
There are, IMHO, many paths to heaven, not just Christianity.

Nice dodge. have you seen a million dollars.

have you seen god?

Nice dodge. have you seen a million dollars.


Have you ever seen a man eat his own head? then you haven't seen everything

It would be great if i could recreate that story out of the bible, about how everyone was worshipping Baal, but the one guy...don't remember who, but he made an alter and made it wet, and the Baalites made theirs all dry and they had a competition to prove which god really existed. Ended up that the Baalites lost, and the kelw dude had fire sent from the heavens to devour the alter. When was the last time Thor sent his son to die in a brutal fashion, to save all mankind. When was the last time that Thor came to me in a vision telling me what to do with my life?

Why was it God had to send his son (who was actually himself, right?) to die in a brutal fashion?

Why was that a moral act?

Nice dodge. have you seen a million dollars.

Employing a cheap lawyer tactic on me now, are you?

Yes, actually, when touring the Royal Canadian Mint in Ottawa. Four years ago, I think.

My turn: have you seen god? TV doesn't count.

When's the last time you saw any evidence that actually happened?


the part with the bible? well last time i checked, the bible is constantly being found to be correct with history. As for the bit where God has spoken to me...last time that happened..was oh..last weekish

have you seen god?

Yes.

the part with the bible? well last time i checked, the bible is constantly being found to be correct with history.

Uh... sometimes it is, sometimes not.
Parts of "Gone With The Wind" correspond to history, but that doesn't mean that the book is entirely fact.

Employing a cheap lawyer tactic on me now, are you?

Yes, actually, when touring the Royal Canadian Mint in Ottawa. Four years ago, I think.

My turn: have you seen god? TV doesn't count.

Yes I have seen God and I even heard him speak.

Why was it God had to send his son (who was actually himself, right?) to die in a brutal fashion?

Why was that a moral act?


A sargent is in the trenches with his men, all whom he cares for. A grenade flies in, and the sgt pounces on it to say the lives of his men. Jesus said that the greatest gift any one could give was to give up their life for others. He gave the ultimate gift by giving his life for everyone. All we have to do is accept that gift.

It would be great if i could recreate that story out of the bible, about how everyone was worshipping Baal, but the one guy...don't remember who, but he made an alter and made it wet, and the Baalites made theirs all dry and they had a competition to prove which god really existed. Ended up that the Baalites lost, and the kelw dude had fire sent from the heavens to devour the alter. When was the last time Thor sent his son to die in a brutal fashion, to save all mankind. When was the last time that Thor came to me in a vision telling me what to do with my life?
None of which answers the question.

Again; if Thor cannot be disproved, does that mean he exists?

Yes.

youve seen his face? his body? heard his actual voice?

Go with whatever makes the most sense and fits the most facts.
That could well lead you to atheism.
For me, it simply leads me to believe that a lot of people are wrong about the nature of God.
I start with the premise that God is Good, and I go from there.

As for the whole "only those who believe in me shall go to heaven" or whatever, my view is that it only applies to Christians. Believing in Christ is an important part of Christianity, so if you're a Christian who does not believe in Christ and who does not follow him, then you're doing something very wrong.
By that same token, a good rule for Odinists would probably be "Do not follow the 10 Commandments", simply because it would be stupid to do so.
There are, IMHO, many paths to heaven, not just Christianity.

And it is that premise you are being asked to justify -- particularly in light of the empirical evidence of evil and human suffering.

None of which answers the question.

Again; if Thor cannot be disproved, does that mean he exists?


I will have proof that Thor doesn't exist tommorrow....right here..ill even TG it to you...But i am going to go play light up frisbee now :D

Yes.

Last night, I saw a cow kill itself by jumping into the spinning turbine of a jet engine.

It would be great if i could recreate that story out of the bible, about how everyone was worshipping Baal, but the one guy...don't remember who, but he made an alter and made it wet, and the Baalites made theirs all dry and they had a competition to prove which god really existed.

Elijah proved that God existed during this time point in history.

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.
Or he.

A sargent is in the trenches with his men, all whom he cares for. A grenade flies in, and the sgt pounces on it to say the lives of his men. Jesus said that the greatest gift any one could give was to give up their life for others. He gave the ultimate gift by giving his life for everyone. All we have to do is accept that gift.

But to take your analogy correctly God put the grenade there to begin with.

If I throw a grenade at you and then pounce on it, have I done a moral thing?

youve seen his face? his body? heard his actual voice?

Bright as the sun and yes I have heard his voice.

A sargent is in the trenches with his men, all whom he cares for. A grenade flies in, and the sgt pounces on it to say the lives of his men. Jesus said that the greatest gift any one could give was to give up their life for others. He gave the ultimate gift by giving his life for everyone. All we have to do is accept that gift.
If believers in God went to a good afterlife anyway before Jesus, should your analogy not be one of a Sargeant pouncing on his own grenade to save people who wouldn't have been injured if he hadn't pulled out the pin?

Bright as the sun and yes I have heard his voice.

*leaves thread*

A sargent is in the trenches with his men, all whom he cares for. A grenade flies in, and the sgt pounces on it to say the lives of his men. Jesus said that the greatest gift any one could give was to give up their life for others. He gave the ultimate gift by giving his life for everyone. All we have to do is accept that gift.

I'll believe in Jesus when he saves me from a grenade, then.

Last night, I saw a cow kill itself by jumping into the spinning turbine of a jet engine.

Well I'm happy for you.

I admire Corneliu's faith in what he believes in, even though I disagree with him.

I admire Corneliu's faith in what he believes in, even though I disagree with him.

Just like I respect your beliefs.

Bright as the sun and yes I have heard his voice.
YOUR CRAZY!!!

YOUR CRAZY!!!
No, it's my crazy. Stop giving it to other people.

YOUR CRAZY!!!

Wouldn't be the first time I've been called crazy and I know it won't be the last.

And it is that premise you are being asked to justify -- particularly in light of the empirical evidence of evil and human suffering.

Actually, nobody has asked me yet to justify it.

The question of "Why would God create a universe with Evil in it?" is less important than the question of "Why would God create a universe at all?"
Once I've answered the second question, then I'll know the answer to the first question.

No, it's my crazy. Stop giving it to other people.
I was about to say the same thing. :)

"Why would God create a universe at all?"

Why do I have an ant farm on my desk (I don't, but hypothetically)?

"Why would God create a universe at all?"


he was bored?

ehh, I like Langwell's answer better lol.

Why do I have an ant farm on my desk (I don't, but hypothetically)?

That's possible. Maybe he just likes to see us crawl around, and occaisionally shake things up.
It doesn't go with my basic premise, though. That God is Good.

he was bored?

I find it unlikely.
If God created the universe, then he created space, time, and everything in between. If God created time, then He exists outside of time.
In which case, he could not get bored.

Actually, nobody has asked me yet to justify it.

The question of "Why would God create a universe with Evil in it?" is less important than the question of "Why would God create a universe at all?"
Once I've answered the second question, then I'll know the answer to the first question.

I thought the original point on which you disagreed with me was on whether God was worthy of worship. This brings into question your premise throughout our entire argument.

But fine. I'm asking you to justify your premise that God is good.

I find it funny that a higher being would have a gender......

(I use 'he' due to the fact that most other people do the same)

lol, and indeed, God (which really is a unisex term, 'godess' only refers to specifically female deities) is more than likely not defined by gender, I mean how could it really work? 'He' is teh general Hebrew term, as 'He' provides for children as a father does, with love, and justice.

to answer the topic of the thread, God didn't 'allow' this to happen so much as it just did, He didn't say that He was just going to sit back and watch her torment (indeed, it sounds as if she wasn't tormented at all) also, if the Christian God exists (which I assure, He does) then He has promised something greater than you can imagine after death to those who follow Him, please, let me specify THOSE WHO FOLLOW HIM not 'good people' not 'people who aren't that bad' but people whose faith lies in Christ Jesus as the redeemer of souls through his revocation of the hold that sin has on us all, I understand many will disagree with me, but since she is asking for opinons, and I am giving mine I expect that no one will be stupid and insult my opinoin, as I insult no one elses opinion. back to the subject the Bible also tells us that our own need must be met, and since her eternity is already decided (how, I don't know, perhaps she was a Christ-following Christian who is now in paradise, or she wasn't and isn't) but that isn't the point, the point is that if you follow as well then you will find the answer to many of these questions, and that is sin. without the Original Sin (the eating of the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden) death would not have even entered this world, nor would pain, or fighting, or war, or suffering, or hunger, or any imperfection. Trying to rid yourself of this sin through the power of Jesus' Blood is the only way to overcome these things, no,that of course does not mean all Christians have easy and terrific lives where nothing goes wrong, in fact Paul was shipwrecked several times, imprisoned several times, beaten many times, and outcast almost all of the time (since his acceptance of Christ) yet he said that no matter his situation he was content, because he knew where he was going (Heaven) and that while he had breath he was going to serve the Lord God (who deserves to be served, most definately)

Jesus said "Ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you." I highly suggest you visit a church, or a miinister of some sort, and ask him how to start a meaningful search

ps "God, if you are real prove it to me, or give me a million dollars or something" is not a meaningful search, as the Bible also say "Test not the Lord your God"

I was about to say the same thing. :)
As long as I'm not the only one who thinks along those lines when they see "your" and "you're" mixed up :)

ps "God, if you are real prove it to me, or give me a million dollars or something" is not a meaningful search, as the Bible also say "Test not the Lord your God"
How convenient.

Noah's flood is like me taking my ant farm into the bath with me.

I don't think there's a god.

But I think if you do have faith in 'God', the 'good things happen to bad people' question is a bit of a shallow, egotistical question. Because if there's a God death is irrelevant -- you'll just go to heaven.

I admire Corneliu's faith in what he believes in, even though I disagree with him.

Even though I disagree with you, your tolerance is a great credit to your personality, we need more people who are willing say that some differences aren't worth fighting over, thank you for your tolerance

How convenient.

I concur.

It doesn't go beyond the church. That is the point.

Do Muslims and Jews get into a Christian heaven? Do Christians or Jews get into a Muslim heaven? What of those who subscribe to Taoism? What about Animists? Those who are naturally not spiritual at all? What of those whose lifestyles or professions are proscribed?

There is no diversity in any religion, because each claims a special status.

I'm pretty sure they all belive that there is only one God, and one heaven, therefore, they must all get into the same heaven.

How convenient.
Why hasn't God said that He exists to everyone? Because He doesn't want to (right now).

I thought the original point on which you disagreed with me was on whether God was worthy of worship. This brings into question your premise throughout our entire argument.

I was arguing against the assumption that God is immoral, not for the argument that He is good.
But close enough.

But fine. I'm asking you to justify your premise that God is good.

I can't, not in concrete terms that will make you happy.
The best that I can do at the moment is to ask the question, "If the evil in the world makes you think that God is evil, why doesn't the good in the world make you think that God is good?"

Also, I can think of possible justifications for evil. Even if I'm wrong about them, that does not mean that there are NO justifications that are true. For every justification that I come up with, there are probably dozens of justifications that I cannot think of.

I simply see no real reason to assume that God is NOT good.

As long as I'm not the only one who thinks along those lines when they see "your" and "you're" mixed up :)

Your not. ;)

You know, I have had this discussion with my husband. Both of use were raised Catholic and force-fed the rhetoric and such from parochial schools, leading to my and his complete and total disdain for organized religion.

that being said, yes, i have faith in God. I have to, because there has to be something more, some reason (I have a feeling I will get crucified, no pun intended, for these beliefs on the forum, but so be it) that this world is cruel and is vicious, that there is some payoff in the end.

why do bad things happen to good people? because God is a loving and cruel God, or at least that was the standard business line the Catholic nuns drilled into our brains. We were constantly shown the story of Job and how basically he got shit on because he believed, loved and honored God.

OK, but back to the question at hand. Do i have faith in God? Yeah, although looking at the state of the world, especially with what seems like the recent rash of vicious murders of innocent children, i question as to how strong that faith is. I have faith, because the idea that there is something more than this world. I guess that could fit into a lot of different faiths, but I was born and raised Catholic, and the Christian faith is the one that fits for me, even though I am one of the most casual practitioners, i still believe, still have tat blind faith, sucks as it does sometimes.

and that was my religious rant for tonight, thank you for tuning in.
does it qualify as a rant if you dont flame anyone?

Suicide bombers supposedly go to heaven, where they get to enjoy, amongst other things, a thousand maidens.

1. Are the maidens christians?
2. Can they bring their bombs with them? That would be bad.

A question;

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and exists outside of time (and if we assume he exists)...why bother with the whole "life" thing anyway? He knows who is going to end up in Heaven and who isn't, so why put us through life? Many people find life incredibly difficult and painful, and God is unnecessarily putting them through that.

So, anyway, the question; Is God some kind of sadist?

I don't think there's a god.

But I think if you do have faith in 'God', the 'good things happen to bad people' question is a bit of a shallow, egotistical question. Because if there's a God death is irrelevant -- you'll just go to heaven.

Agreed.

A question;

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and exists outside of time (and if we assume he exists)...why bother with the whole "life" thing anyway? He knows who is going to end up in Heaven and who isn't, so why put us through life? Many people find life incredibly difficult and painful, and God is unnecessarily putting them through that.

So, anyway, the question; Is God some kind of sadist?

Antfarmers are sadists too.

A question;

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and exists outside of time (and if we assume he exists)...why bother with the whole "life" thing anyway? He knows who is going to end up in Heaven and who isn't, so why put us through life?

THAT is the ultimate question. I'll let you know if I ever figure it out.

Many people find life incredibly difficult and painful, and God is unnecessarily putting them through that.
Is God some kind of sadist?

If He is a sadist, he's not a very good one. I can think of zillions of ways to inflict more pain and suffering than already exist.

now i dont know or care if there is a god if there is a god then why does bad stuff happen (taking the cristian veiw) if there is god why doesnt he just kill satan and stuff no one will read this so im pissing of now bye:sniper:

Suicide bombers supposedly go to heaven, where they get to enjoy, amongst other things, a thousand maidens.

1. Are the maidens christians?
2. Can they bring their bombs with them? That would be bad.


ummm, well, sincce no Christian theology supports suicide bombers going to Heaven (you are thinking Islam), no the maidens would be Moslem, and since Heaven is completeyl removed form all things physical I don't think you could sneak a bomb in there

A question;

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and exists outside of time (and if we assume he exists)...why bother with the whole "life" thing anyway? He knows who is going to end up in Heaven and who isn't, so why put us through life? Many people find life incredibly difficult and painful, and God is unnecessarily putting them through that.

Is God some kind of sadist?

I belive life is a test. You make the choices, He and others give you the options. YOU choose. He doesn't let you know he exists, YOU decide weather you want to belive Him, or not. It's all your choice. It's a test of you, not Him. The pain you go through in life, if you did it for GOd, then you'll be rewarded in heaven. So, though life itself isn't fair, it will even out when you die.

God can't kill Satan because Satan is already in Hell. Killing him wouldn't accomplish anything.

If god sits and watches us everyday, he must be depressed. Thus, he kills some of us for no reason.

Maybe god is like Marvin the Paranoid Android, who plugged himself into the external data feed of a ships AI and got it to commit suicide just by talking to it.

God can't kill Satan because Satan is already in Hell. Killing him wouldn't accomplish anything.

Well, it would piss him off a bit.

A question;

If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and exists outside of time (and if we assume he exists)...why bother with the whole "life" thing anyway? He knows who is going to end up in Heaven and who isn't, so why put us through life? Many people find life incredibly difficult and painful, and God is unnecessarily putting them through that.

So, anyway, the question; Is God some kind of sadist?

no, because He made us to love Him, but He gave us teh free-will choice to do so, or to not do so as we choose, so, by not choosing Him you make your life, and subsequent torure your own,God was not satisfied with being worshipped by angels who had no choice, so He made us... and wills that all of u should live eternally (in Heaven) hence Jesus, without Jesus, even more would fall into the gates of Hell because Jesus is a far more simple solution to the problem of sin

How convenient.


True, it does seem convenient. But then, so does most of the answers that we (using this as a general term for Christians) have for most of the issues raised by nonbelievers. (ie pain suffering in your life, etc. see the book of job)

still, though, reading through this thread and many others, I have to say that Christianity is not anymore crazy than any of the other religions. no, wait, think about it for a minute:

Christianity: we believe a deity, God, created man from dust
Scientology: some walrus fell from a spaceship and landed on the earth
Mormonism: the whole golden tablet thing

Christianity: when we die, we go to heaven to be with God or we are sent to hell
Hindu: the concept of reincarnation and nirvana- we keep living until we get it right
Heaven's Gate: there was a spaceship flying behind the Hale-Bop comet

and so on and so on. yes, i believe in God and Jesus, but how is this any more crazy than the other religions/sects/cults that are around at any one moment. yup, i think that is it. we are all crazy, maybe the atheists are the only sane ones.

Maybe we are all insane, maybe we are all crazy for believing in one thing or another, but, if i am right in what I believe, then well, then I am OK, if not, well, then i guess i will come back as a cockroach or maybe something nice, like a butterfly. and if deluding myself with false comfort or trying to justify the evils and things in life and the earth using the harsh God/Loving God duality gets me through the day, then so be it.

does it qualify as a rant if you dont flame anyone?

true, maybe "religious babble" would have been a better term....

I don't think there's a god.

But I think if you do have faith in 'God', the 'good things happen to bad people' question is a bit of a shallow, egotistical question. Because if there's a God death is irrelevant -- you'll just go to heaven.

It isn't, I try to get as many OTHER people to follow God as I can. If I die, I can't do that anymore. If you don't belive in GOd, you go "nowhere" when you die, so life is all you have. That makes some people more selfish (the source of almost all sin).

True, it does seem convenient. But then, so does most of the answers that we (using this as a general term for Christians) have for most of the issues raised by nonbelievers. (ie pain suffering in your life, etc. see the book of job)

still, though, reading through this thread and many others, I have to say that Christianity is not anymore crazy than any of the other religions. no, wait, think about it for a minute:

Christianity: we believe a deity, God, created man from dust
Scientology: some walrus fell from a spaceship and landed on the earth
Mormonism: the whole golden tablet thing

Christianity: when we die, we go to heaven to be with God or we are sent to hell
Hindu: the concept of reincarnation and nirvana- we keep living until we get it right
Heaven's Gate: there was a spaceship flying behind the Hale-Bop comet

and so on and so on. yes, i believe in God and Jesus, but how is this any more crazy than the other religions/sects/cults that are around at any one moment. yup, i think that is it. we are all crazy, maybe the atheists are the only sane ones.

Maybe we are all insane, maybe we are all crazy for believing in one thing or another, but, if i am right in what I believe, then well, then I am OK, if not, well, then i guess i will come back as a cockroach or maybe something nice, like a butterfly. and if deluding myself with false comfort or trying to justify the evils and things in life and the earth using the harsh God/Loving God duality gets me through the day, then so be it.

wow, way to kick the crap out of the idea that athiests are the only rational people around, that was awesome! and God Bless!

true
thats what the individual who believs in god convinces himself
because there is no god
well, thats my point of view
true
thats what the individual who doesn't believe in god convinces himself
because there is a god
well, thats my point of view

Still sounds dumb don't it?

I belive life is a test. You make the choices, He and others give you the options. YOU choose. He doesn't let you know he exists, YOU decide weather you want to belive Him, or not. It's all your choice. It's a test of you, not Him. The pain you go through in life, if you did it for GOd, then you'll be rewarded in heaven. So, though life itself isn't fair, it will even out when you die.
But He knows what the end result will be as soon as (or even before) you are born. So why does He test? He knows the result, he knows where you will end up, it's like he wants to see us suffer a little first, before putting us our of our misery.

It isn't, I try to get as many OTHER people to follow God as I can. If I die, I can't do that anymore. If you don't belive in GOd, you go "nowhere" when you die, so life is all you have. That makes some people more selfish (the source of almost all sin).

Amen

You know, this is all nonsense. Everyone knows that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster who created a mountain, trees, and a midget in the first day, then the rest of the universe in three days, then slept the next three (too much beer from the beer volcanoes of heaven).

The above theory has the exact same amount of reason to it as most other religions. Who is to say God isn't a giant Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or an invisible pink unicorn? Who's to say I don't have a dragon in my house which is constantly breathing heatless fire on me? It's all nonsense that can't be proved either way.

But He knows what the end result will be as soon as (or even before) you are born. So why does He test? He knows the result, he knows where you will end up, it's like he wants to see us suffer a little first, before putting us our of our misery.

He sees the end result first, but the end result only happens if we are tested, and since it is our own choice He must allow us to go through it, if He sees the future of an unborn baby and says "Well, that one is going to Hell anyway, let me just zap it away here and now" He si denying that life the chance to go to HEaven, and that wouldn't be very nice would it? God is Love

and before you ask why He doesnt jsut zap those will will go to Heaven away, remember that without Chrsitians in the world, no one else would recieve Christs sacrifice either, so we need to be present (even through tragedy) to prove our devotion, and to be the light, and salt of the earth

It's all nonsense that can't be proved either way.

nonesense, and what cannot be proven are severly different things

true, maybe "religious babble" would have been a better term....
i quoted your post because i wanted you to know that someone had read it and appreciated it. it seemed to have gotten lost in the meaningless bickering.

no, because He made us to love Him, but He gave us teh free-will choice to do so, or to not do so as we choose, so, by not choosing Him you make your life, and subsequent torure your own,God was not satisfied with being worshipped by angels who had no choice, so He made us

So God could be seen as the embodiment of one of the seven deadly sins (Pride through vanity)?

I mean, how vain could you be that you need to create a whole universe of people to worship you because you aren't content with the worshippers you already have? He knows what's going to happen to us eventually, but he puts us on earth and through everything life brings simply to satisfy his own vanity?

... and wills that all of u should live eternally (in Heaven) hence Jesus, without Jesus, even more would fall into the gates of Hell because Jesus is a far more simple solution to the problem of sin

A simpler solution still would be to abolish the silly concept of sin altogether.

I'm fine with whatever explanation of my origins as long as it doesn't say I evolved from a clam.

wow, way to kick the crap out of the idea that athiests are the only rational people around, that was awesome! and God Bless!

Look at it from an outside point of view, looking at religion in a completely logical, analytical way, yup, the atheists are the ones who look sane compared to the rest of us.

I have blind faith, it is not logical, it is not rational, but it is there (hence the words "blind" and "faith". How is that not crazy?

You believe what you do why? What are the reasons as to why you have faith? There is a "logical" arguement for everything that we believe in. But, why do Christians believe what they do? Because we have faith. That's not logical.

But He knows what the end result will be as soon as (or even before) you are born. So why does He test?

Good question.

He knows the result, he knows where you will end up, it's like he wants to see us suffer a little first, before putting us our of our misery.

Is that the only answer you can come up with?

i quoted your post because i wanted you to know that someone had read it and appreciated it. it seemed to have gotten lost in the meaningless bickering.


thanks....it is good to know that someone read it, they tend to get lost in there sometimes :)

So God could be seen as the embodiment of one of the seven deadly sins (Pride through vanity)?

I mean, how vain could you be that you need to create a whole universe of people to worship you because you aren't content with the worshippers you already have? He knows what's going to happen to us eventually, but he puts us on earth and through everything life brings simply to satisfy his own vanity?



A simpler solution still would be to abolish the silly concept of sin altogether.
but without sin, we wouldnt have the choice to make, we would be perfect, and blameless, and deserving of Heaven

and God is a Jealous God, that mush is stated, it is just that He is above our own spiritual laws, pride/vanity in humans detract from service to God, because serving God means serving others, if we are proud, or vain than we are selfi-serving, and self-seeking "He who seeks his life shall lose, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall gain it" (the quote wont be exact, but pretty close)

Look at it from an outside point of view, looking at religion in a completely logical, analytical way, yup, the atheists are the ones who look sane compared to the rest of us.

I have blind faith, it is not logical, it is not rational, but it is there (hence the words "blind" and "faith". How is that not crazy?

You believe what you do why? What are the reasons as to why you have faith? There is a "logical" arguement for everything that we believe in. But, why do Christians believe what they do? Because we have faith. That's not logical.

I disagree.
Faith can be entirely logical.

nonesense, and what cannot be proven are severly different things
That's true. But how is your God any less nonsensical than my Flying Spaghetti Monster? It isn't, except for the fact that more people believe in God than an immortal and omnipotent pasta dish. How is your God anymore legitimate than Zeus, Thor, or Loki? How is your God more legitimate than the Buddha, who at very least we can prove existed? What makes your God legitimate beyond the fact that people believe in him? People believed in Zeus. One ancient culture believed that the Universe was created by two people literally tearing another person apart. Another believed that the Universe was created from an egg. What makes your belief any more legitimate, and any less nonsensical?

I'm fine with whatever explanation of my origins as long as it doesn't say I evolved from a clam.

Your ok in my book then :D

I disagree.
Faith can be entirely logical.


agreed, my Faith has been proven in a very persoanl way, not in a way that I can prove it to you, but it has been proven to me, and that is logical to me

He sees the end result first, but the end result only happens if we are tested, and since it is our own choice He must allow us to go through it, if He sees the future of an unborn baby and says "Well, that one is going to Hell anyway, let me just zap it away here and now" He si denying that life the chance to go to HEaven, and that wouldn't be very nice would it? God is Love
But if he is omniscient he know what free choices the baby will make later in life. So if he knows what the baby will choose, he's not denying the chance of anything.

and before you ask why He doesnt jsut zap those will will go to Heaven away, remember that without Chrsitians in the world, no one else would recieve Christs sacrifice either, so we need to be present (even through tragedy) to prove our devotion, and to be the light, and salt of the earth
How self righteous of you.

Is that the only answer you can come up with?
I'm sorry, what would you prefer? "Oh, I see, you must be right"?

I disagree.
Faith can be entirely logical.

but how???

I disagree.
Faith can be entirely logical.

I have to disagree on this one. From an analytical point of veiw.

From dictionary.com:


faith ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.
1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3.Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
4.The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
5.A set of principles or beliefs.


Faith, by defination, is illogical.

I'm sorry, what would you prefer? "Oh, I see, you must be right"?

No, it was a serious question.

but without sin, we wouldnt have the choice to make, we would be perfect, and blameless, and deserving of Heaven
And that would just be a tragedy.

and God is a Jealous God, that mush is stated, it is just that He is above our own spiritual laws, pride/vanity in humans detract from service to God, because serving God means serving others, if we are proud, or vain than we are selfi-serving, and self-seeking "He who seeks his life shall lose, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall gain it" (the quote wont be exact, but pretty close)
Why is it bad to be self-serving when that concept is best embodied by the God you are worshipping?

But if he is omniscient he know what free choices the baby will make later in life. So if he knows what the baby will choose, he's not denying the chance of anything.


How self righteous of you.

yes it is still denying their right to choose what they will, because all though He knows what will happen, zapping them away disallows further chance, though He knows the outcome

and I am not self-righteous, it is a iBiblical mission, be the salt, and light of the earth, I can probably garauntee that my own sins stack higher than yours, I cling to n notion of worthiness, I have earned and deserve Hell fully, yet through Christs sacrifice I need not go there, and if a God would do that fro em, then that God is so worth serving

I have to disagree on this one. From an analytical point of veiw.

From dictionary.com:



Faith, by defination, is illogical.

Uh, Faith, by the second definition out of five, is illogical.
4 out of 5 definitions there do not preclude logic.

No, it was a serious question.
Oh OK.

Well, here you are; it wasn't an answer, it was supposition.

Uh, Faith, by the second definition out of five, is illogical.
4 out of 5 definitions there do not preclude logic.

But one does, so what's your point?

But one does, so what's your point?

That faith can be logical.
As I originally said.

You mean logical as in believing in things that have no basis in fact?

And that would just be a tragedy.


Why is it bad to be self-serving when that concept is best embodied by the God you are worshipping?

well, it would entirely defeat the purpose of creating us in the first place, rmember, there are angels for assured worship

and I am in no way God, God deseres to be proud, and vain, as He is in every way perfect, in every way righteous, what has He done to merit anyhting less than the highest worship and praise? Are humans the equal to God? "For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God" "For there are none righteous, no not one" we as humans have no reason to be proud, or vain, we are fallen, and are failures, but again, thanks to the life-giving Blood of Christ we can overcome our sin and be reunited with the God who died for us (in the form of Jesus the Christ)

yes it is still denying their right to choose what they will, because all though He knows what will happen, zapping them away disallows further chance, though He knows the outcome
This makes no sense. If he's truly omniscient and outside of time, he knows the outcome of all chance, so there can be no possibility of further chance beyond his knowing.

and I am not self-righteous, it is a iBiblical mission, be the salt, and light of the earth, I can probably garauntee that my own sins stack higher than yours, I cling to n notion of worthiness, I have earned and deserve Hell fully, yet through Christs sacrifice I need not go there, and if a God would do that fro em, then that God is so worth serving
If you don't think "we need to be present (even through tragedy) to prove our devotion, and to be the light, and salt of the earth" isn't self-righteous then I suggest you study the meaning of the word.

Look at it from an outside point of view, looking at religion in a completely logical, analytical way, yup, the atheists are the ones who look sane compared to the rest of us.

I have blind faith, it is not logical, it is not rational, but it is there (hence the words "blind" and "faith". How is that not crazy?

You believe what you do why? What are the reasons as to why you have faith? There is a "logical" arguement for everything that we believe in. But, why do Christians believe what they do? Because we have faith. That's not logical.

Humans and many other animals have a way of processing information in the world that is very different from machines.

For most machines, they can have very high fidelity of information trans/reception. If the signal intensity is high and clear, the information comes through very well. Once they signal intensity gets weak, or the ambient noise overpowers it, machines become next to useless. By using noise reduction technology, the signal also disappears.

Humans and animals have an amazing ability to receive a signal that is lower intensity than the noise! How can this be possible?

By pattern recognition. By signal reconstruction. You can recognize a familiar background tune in a shopping mall even if the din is louder than the tiny PA speakers.

But it takes time. It also needs a preconceived pattern. This is a belief.

Helpful in times to get us out of danger, helpful to form snap decisions in emergency situations. But it is also dangerous in that, once formed, the preconceived pattern may not be easily altered even in the face of revised information.

Machines have very high resolution, but poor sensitivity making them less useful for real world situations.

In contrast, people and animals have very high sensitivity, useful for the noisy real world, but at the same time such poor resolution that they can see things that are not there (such misidentifying shadows as ghosts) and refuse to believe the truth even if the data is completely revealed (such as crop circles).

You mean logical as in believing in things that have no basis in fact?

I mean logical as in "of, relating to, involving, or being in accordance with logic".

Er.. you do realize that not all of those definitions for faith apply at once, don't you?

Er.. you do realize that not all of those definitions for faith apply at once, don't you?

Who?

Uh, Faith, by the second definition out of five, is illogical.
4 out of 5 definitions there do not preclude logic.

Ok, disagree again, but let me explain definition by definition.


1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

A belief in the truth, but nowhere does it state here that there must be concrete evidence. Your beliefs are based on the Bible, true? Someone else believes that the Bible is a bunch of hooey- there is no way to validate the true author of the Bible, which in the case of Christianity, we believe it to be divinely inspired by God. There is no way to test this hypothesis, therefore, it is a blind acceptance thing. We accept the Bible as the truth because the Bible tells us to accept it as the truth. I am not to sure of my logic definitions, but I believe that this is some kind of null argument or something.

2.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

Kinda self-explanatory


3.Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

Loyalty to a person or thing, i will add entity to this (since I don't feel right calling God a thing). Again, is it logical to put your loyalty in a person that you cannot touch or see? Granted, as a Christian you can see the works and results of God and such, but God is not tangible. Not while we are on Earth.

4.The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
5.A set of principles or beliefs.

as for these, well, pretty self-explanatory.

I did not say that my faith in God was wrong, I just said that it is illogical. I am a scientist, I deal in the analytical, testable world. Faith is just that, a belief, a hope. Something that we believe in because it is not logical, but because of things we feel, we know, we have in our hearts, we believe.

Who?

:rolleyes:

and I am in no way God, God deseres to be proud, and vain, as He is in every way perfect, in every way righteous, what has He done to merit anyhting less than the highest worship and praise? Are humans the equal to God? "For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God" "For there are none righteous, no not one" we as humans have no reason to be proud, or vain, we are fallen, and are failures, but again, thanks to the life-giving Blood of Christ we can overcome our sin and be reunited with the God who died for us (in the form of Jesus the Christ)
So when God is vain it is "perfect", but when a person is vain it is sinful?

Would that mean that what is sinful is perfect? Or what is perfect is sinful? Or is it only when God does it that it is perfect, and he is the exception to the rule? If so, no wonder we "fall short of the Glory of God".

This makes no sense. If he's truly omniscient and outside of time, he knows the outcome of all chance, so there can be no possibility of further chance beyond his knowing.


If you don't think "we need to be present (even through tragedy) to prove our devotion, and to be the light, and salt of the earth" isn't self-righteous then I suggest you study the meaning of the word.
ok, I am not saying that His knowledge of the outcome would be flawed, we must merely misunderstand each other, the point I was trying to make is that yes, He does know, perhaps I will backslide, and go to Hell, I don't know, but He does, my point is that He does know, but we still need to make the choices, otherwise He is robbing us of our choice, while the outcome is the same, the population of Hell would have a large list of grievances at God for not at least letting them choose their fate themselves

and it isn't self-righeous, that would be me saying I am better than you, which again, I am not, in fact, I am most asusradly among the worst of sinners "Christ Jesus died for the sake of sinners, of whom I am the worst" I am trying to live out a higher purpose in my life, a righteous purpose, but that does not make me a better person, and any righteousness that I could claim would not be my own, but granted by the Grace of God "therefore we are saved by Grace, through faith, and not of deeds lest any man should boast"

<snip>
Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?

Sorry to hear, but it could be her past karma.

Everyday many people undergo tough ordeals and many die. One natural/man-made disaster and thousands of children die (who probably have never "sinned" because the never had the chance to), does that mean that God is cruel? Should I stop believing in God because I (or others) suffer illness/death etc.

No. Because I am not my body.

So when God is vain it is "perfect", but when a person is vain it is sinful?

Would that mean that what is sinful is perfect? Or what is perfect is sinful? Or is it only when God does it that it is perfect, and he is the exception to the rule? If so, no wonder we "fall short of the Glory of God".

when a parent sets a bedtime for his/her eight year old child, must the parent also abide by that same rule? why is God held to the same rules that we are? He made them, and in his infinite perfection needs not follow them, and his pride and vanity can only serve Himself, and since serving Him is the source of Grace, and Righteousness, how can it be wrong?

when a parent sets a bedtime for his/her eight year old child, must the parent also abide by that same rule? why is God held to the same rules that we are? He made them, and in his infinite perfection needs not follow them, and his pride and vanity can only serve Himself, and since serving Him is the source of Grace, and Righteousness, how can it be wrong?

He doesn't follow his own rules, so by his own definition, he's not perfect?

Ok, disagree again, but let me explain defination by defination.

A belief in the truth, but nowhere does it state here that there must be concrete evidence. Your beliefs are based on the Bible, true?

Partially.

Someone else believes that the Bible is a bunch of hooey- there is no way to validate the true author of the Bible, which in the case of Christianity, we beleive it to be divinly inspired by God.

Not really. I see it more as the attempts by some long-dead people to explain divine events.

There is no way to test this hypothosis, therefore, it is a bliind acceptance thing.

False.
There is no way for me to test the hypothesis that George Washington lived, but that doesn't mean that my faith that he did is blind.

We accept the Bible as the truth because the Bible tells us to accept it as the truth. I am not too sure of my logic definations, but I belevei that this is some kind of null argument or something.

I accept the Bible as true because of certain events in my life, and because it makes sense for the Bible to be true.

Loyalty to a person or thing, i will add entity to this (since I don't feel right calling God a thing). Again, is it logical to put your loyalty in a person that you cannot touch or see? Granted, as a Christian you can see the works and results of God and such, but God is not tangible. Not while we are on Earth.

You don't have to see a person, or to physically touch them, to trust them.
You trust that I exist, don't you?

I did not say that my faith in GOd was wrong, I just said that it is illogical.

And in that, you are wrong.

I am a scientist, I deal in the analytical, testable world. Faith is just that, a belief, a hope. Something that we believe in because it is not logical, but because of things we feel, we know, we have in our hearts, we believe.

Nope.
When I flip a light switch, I have faith that the light will come on. That is NOT an illogical belief on my part.
Faith and logic are far from mutually exclusive.

He doesn't follow his own rules, so by his own definition, he's not perfect?

well, not quite, He is above His own rules by His iminent perfection, and again, His rules for righteousness concern serving Him, since his pride and vanity can only serve Himself (while our pride, and vanity only serve us) He is above that being a sin, while we who serve ourselves fall into sin

ok, I am not saying that His knowledge of the outcome would be flawed, we must merely misunderstand each other, the point I was trying to make is that yes, He does know, perhaps I will backslide, and go to Hell, I don't know, but He does, my point is that He does know, but we still need to make the choices, otherwise He is robbing us of our choice, while the outcome is the same, the population of Hell would have a large list of grievances at God for not at least letting them choose their fate themselves

How would we know we had been 'robbed' of a choice?

and it isn't self-righeous, that would be me saying I am better than you, which again, I am not, in fact, I am most asusradly among the worst of sinners "Christ Jesus died for the sake of sinners, of whom I am the worst" I am trying to live out a higher purpose in my life, a righteous purpose, but that does not make me a better person, and any righteousness that I could claim would not be my own, but granted by the Grace of God "therefore we are saved by Grace, through faith, and not of deeds lest any man should boast"
Claiming yourself as "the light...of the earth" is fairly self-righteous, no?

what about maybe? Waita narrow down the options to religion or atheism.:(

How would we know we had been 'robbed' of a choice?


Claiming yourself as "the light...of the earth" is fairly self-righteous, no?



regardless! He would be robbing us whether or not we knew it, and whether or not His outcome is always perfect, for Him to not rob us, our life, and choices must be there, yes, sometimes children die, and how do I explain that? as the choice of other human beings, we are not arguing over whether it would be right or wrong to rob us of the choice, at this point, we are merely debated whether or not it would be robbing us, which it would

and agina, for hopefully the last time, it is not self-rightous becaue it is of nothing of my own, it is not me that makes me bette,r it is God, and His grace, I deserve no credit for anyhting that would be considered righteous, so it is not self-righteous

and if you want to argue, I will put the matter firmly to rest by publicly stating that I am not a good person, I ama terrible person, I have sinned, and I have scorned the name of God, and the righteousness to which I now cling is not my own, I have no pride in what I have done, but rather I have joy in what God has done for me, and it is NOT MY OWN

God is a sick, sadistic bastard.


Girl of sixteen, whole life ahead of her
Slashed her wrists, bored with life
Didn’t succeed, thank the lord
For small mercies

Fighting back the tears, mother reads the note again
Sixteen candles burn in her mind
She takes the blame, it’s always the same
She goes down on her knees and prays

I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that god’s got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find him laughing

Girl of eighteen, fell in love with everything
Found new life in jesus christ
Hit by a car, ended up
On a life support machine

Summer’s day, as she passed away
Birds were singing in the summer sky
Then came the rain, and once again
A tear fell from her mother’s eye

I don’t want to start any blasphemous rumours
But I think that god’s got a sick sense of humor
And when I die I expect to find him laughing

I don't believe there is a God. No proof points to it.

God is a sick, sadistic bastard.

if you could please remind me of Depeche Mode's theological expertise so that we can judge a perfect being based solely of off their song, and without needing anything more, that would be nice

*ahem* apologies, but that was all sarcasm

regardless! He would be robbing us whether or not we knew it, and whether or not His outcome is always perfect, for Him to not rob us, our life, and choices must be there, yes, sometimes children die, and how do I explain that? as the choice of other human beings, we are not arguing over whether it would be right or wrong to rob us of the choice, at this point, we are merely debated whether or not it would be robbing us, which it would
If the choice never exists then there is nothing to rob.

and agina, for hopefully the last time, it is not self-rightous becaue it is of nothing of my own, it is not me that makes me bette,r it is God, and His grace, I deserve no credit for anyhting that would be considered righteous, so it is not self-righteous

and if you want to argue, I will put the matter firmly to rest by publicly stating that I am not a good person, I ama terrible person, I have sinned, and I have scorned the name of God, and the righteousness to which I now cling is not my own, I have no pride in what I have done, but rather I have joy in what God has done for me, and it is NOT MY OWN
Fine, but just a suggestion; you probably shouldn't call yourself "the light" is you don't want to leave yourself open to accusations.

People worshipping a god is similar to people clapping at a dog who walked on two legs; it wasn't done well, but you're suprised that it could do it at all.

yes, definitely. And about the pain, I think it is a result of sin, not God's original plan, that's why he sent his son to suffer so we can be saved from the punishment of sin and ultimately be free of pain if we trust in Him.

If the choice never exists then there is nothing to rob.


Fine, but just a suggestion; you probably shouldn't call yourself "the light" is you don't want to leave yourself open to accusations.

well, if we don't have a choice, that goes back to why would we be here at all? Angels already don't have the choice, clearly God wanted to create something that had the choice, so we were created to have the choice, that by nature entails suffering, and unfortunate consequence, but a real on

and actually, Jesus told us to be the salt, and light of the earth, I was only picking up the title, and trying to use it as a rallying cry, no self-righteousness meant, and I am sorry if it seemed that way, lol, apparently more than just one misunderstanding! heh

ps, no the laughter isn't meant to insult you, merely teh imperfect mode of communication that a forum thread is

yes, definitely. And about the pain, I think it is a result of sin, not God's original plan, that's why he sent his son to suffer so we can be saved from the punishment of sin and ultimately be free of pain if we trust in Him.

not sure if this was directed at me, or what, but I agree (so long as we can agree that 'ultimately' means post-life-on-earth) because even Christians (and especially Christians) suffer in their time on earth (but we are shown that even when things are at their worst, we can still have a great joy in knowing God-"You give me joy that's unspeakable, and I like it" Newsboys, form the song "Joy")

if you could please remind me of Depeche Mode's theological expertise so that we can judge a perfect being based solely of off their song, and without needing anything more, that would be nice

*ahem* apologies, but that was all sarcasm


No shit. I never said the song was evidence. I was expressing an opinion. Am I not allowed to do that, O self-righteous one? If you want evidence, take a look around then tell me something other than "we shouldn't question God's wisdom". At best, He doesn't care about His creations, but gets all pissy when we don't bow and scrape. At worst, He thinks He's being funny. At least the ancient Greeks openly admitted that their gods were capricious and screwed people over on a whim. We have to take and thank Him for it.

No shit. I never said the song was evidence. I was expressing an opinion. Am I not allowed to do that, O self-righteous one? If you want evidence, take a look around then tell me something other than "we shouldn't question God's wisdom". At best, He doesn't care about His creations, but gets all pissy when we don't bow and scrape. At worst, He thinks He's being funny. At least the ancient Greeks openly admitted that their gods were capricious and screwed people over on a whim. We have to take and thank Him for it.

jsut making sure that you weren't trying to pass it off as some form of fact, or evidence, I won't regard the rest of your post because I am sure it is pretty redundant (I skimmed it, nothing unusual, we an all jsut know that I disagree with it)

ps, wasn't trying to deny your opinon, merely thought you might be trying to use that as evidence, a misunderstanding clearly, and apologies if you were offended

yes, definitely. And about the pain, I think it is a result of sin, not God's original plan, that's why he sent his son to suffer so we can be saved from the punishment of sin and ultimately be free of pain if we trust in Him.


It doesn't work that way. What sin did I commit that left me disabled and clinically depressed? What sin did I commit that God decided to punish me by giving me to two abusive beasts for parents? Riddle me that, Batman.

Ok, I am responding to the original question. I do believe in God. I believe that even though bad things happen to good people, There is a higher power watching over us. Now don't start thinking I'm biased or whatever...But I too have lost someone dear to me. Several people actually. My Grandfather when I was 10 due to stroke. My Grandmother when I was 12 due to stroke/Alzheimers. My friend Jessica in 2004 due to a Brain annurisim (yes my spelling is atrocious). My friend Kelli in February 2005 to Leukemia. My friend Hillary on Thanksgiving 2005 to Heart problems. So I'm totally understanding the whole Death to a good person thing. But the thing that had gotten me through all this is the fact that I could turn to God in my hour of need and knowing he's there comforted me. Now I know it isn't fair that there are many dirtbags out there in the world and yet the good ones die young...but I believe there is a plan for everything.
Thank you for your time.

24hr CVS pharmacy']Ok, I am responding to the original question. I do believe in God. I believe that even though bad things happen to good people, There is a higher power watching over us. Now don't start thinking I'm biased or whatever...But I too have lost someone dear to me. Several people actually. My Grandfather when I was 10 due to stroke. My Grandmother when I was 12 due to stroke/Alzheimers. My friend Jessica in 2004 due to a Brain annurisim (yes my spelling is atrocious). My friend Kelli in February 2005 to Leukemia. My friend Hillary on Thanksgiving 2005 to Heart problems. So I'm totally understanding the whole Death to a good person thing. But the thing that had gotten me through all this is the fact that I could turn to God in my hour of need and knowing he's there comforted me. Now I know it isn't fair that there are many dirtbags out there in the world and yet the good ones die young...but I believe there is a plan for everything.
Thank you for your time.


Amen

It doesn't work that way. What sin did I commit that left me disabled and clinically depressed? What sin did I commit that God decided to punish me by giving me to two abusive beasts for parents? Riddle me that, Batman.

you were born into sin, moreover to not sin ever is completely not human, it jsut isn't, ever look at something and scheme about ways to get it in any illegal or immoral way (morality will be based off of the Christian definition because it is fitting), that is a sin, ever look at someone that you aren't married to in a lustful way? that is a sin, the point is that we are full of sin, sin is more than jsut killing stealing lying and all that, moreoer cosequences in this life aren't always directly related to your sin, and many people find extreme hope in God, enough to break depression

Alright, then what did I plot to steal, who did I lust after while in utero? What sins could I have committed before I was born to be given this life? I was born disabled. My parents were abusive from the start. The psychological scars created depression. How did I deserve it?

well...

i dont believe god has a personal hand in everyones life, if he did, that whould be what people seem to refer to as heaven and everything would be perfect.

we live our own lives, things happen to us and those we love. these are not tests it is simply called life

when i first opened the thread i thought it was going to be something about :if you jump off a cliff with no parachute do you think god will save you" kind of thing. and in that case no.

didn't I jsut say that not everyhting bad is directly related to sin? bad things might happen to me because someone chooses to be malicious to me, or in some way harm me while I did nothing to 'deserve' it, bad things happen, I am truly sorry for your situation, but so is Christ, and He is there with open arms, I've been hurt, and I have been scared, but I will be honest and say that I don't understand your position, your situation deserves far more pity than mine ever could, which is why Jesus shows a lot of pity, enough to die for you, and it is not your past that matters, not if you accpet Christ, then only your life in Him matters

i believe that God most likely plays a hands off approach to letting us live. if you sin he is not going to make a tornado hit your house, or kill your grandmother.

when i first opened the thread i thought it was going to be something about :if you jump off a cliff with no parachute do you think god will save you" kind of thing. and in that case no.

lol, and reasonably not, going back to Jesus own temptatio by Satan, where Satan basically said 'hey Jesus, jump off of the temple, you won't get hurt, because the Bible says that 'He will give charge of His angels that not one foot will strike the stone' ' and Jesus was all 'not really, because the Bible also says, "Test not the Lord your God" '

by the way, that i paraphrased, should anyone wnat to try to fight over a clear 'misquote'

My God won't permit me to have faith with a capital 'F' in Him or anything else for that matter. He's told me firmly; 'Faith' is a Sin. Only through Doubt, doubt with a capital 'D' will I come closer to understanding our relationship.

And that fills me with great warmth.




*Edit: don't worry, this is my God we're talking about, here. Doesn't have any bearing on the rest of you, unless you think it's important or something...

i believe that God most likely plays a hands off approach to letting us live. if you sin he is not going to make a tornado hit your house, or kill your grandmother.

I half agree with you, I have seen God's hand in my life, working, and building, so it sin't hands off

however, I think you are right in that He does not directly punish, 'hmmm, that man stole a loaf of bread, I had better smite him now...' doesn't happen

however, if you really look at it, sin has it's own consequences much of the time, when pig was illeegal to eat (OT) it was dangerous to eat anyway, because you have to prepare it just right lest it swim with disease, so that was outlawed for our won protection, and illegitimate sexual action is wrong, because God made it special, and exclusive, and with the AIDS epidemic loose, along with a slough of other incurable STD's only lend cerdence to why the Christian law on sexual conduct makes sense

My God won't permit me to have faith with a capital 'F' in Him or anything else for that matter. He's told me firmly; 'Faith' is a Sin. Only through Doubt, doubt with a capital 'D' will I come closer to understanding our relationship.

And that fills me with great warmth.




*Edit: don't worry, this is my God we're talking about, here. Doesn't have any bearing on the rest of you, unless you think it's important or something...

but how can you have faith in a deity that permits none? not to slander, I am just curious, although I assume ()no offense if I am wrong) that this is a joke, but pleae, if I am wrong, I apologize, and please correct me

however, I think you are right in that He does not directly punish, 'hmmm, that man stole a loaf of bread, I had better smite him now...' doesn't happen


Why not?

Why not?

I have sinned, and I am still here, you have sinned, and you are still her... got any evidence that suggests that God smites people for sin?

"Yes" has caught up a lot over the last twenty pages or so. Intresting.

I have sinned, and I am still here, you have sinned, and you are still her... got any evidence that suggests that God smites people for sin?

Sorry. I must have worded the question wrong.

Why, does God choose not to smite people. If you're about to torture and murder an innocent person, why doesn't God smite you?

Sorry. I must have worded the question wrong.

Why, does God choose not to smite people. If you're about to torture and murder an innocent person, why doesn't God smite you?

because it is up to each of us to amke our own choices, and althoug He does not smite, He can provide a method of deliverance (besides slow and painful death) for the victim of sucha wrong doing, perhaps God orchestrates matters just enough so that the police arrive in the exact moment need to spare the poor person his otherwise fate, or some suc other deliverance

but how can you have faith in a deity that permits none? not to slander, I am just curious, although I assume ()no offense if I am wrong) that this is a joke, but pleae, if I am wrong, I apologize, and please correct me

It made sense to me...

I believe Gods definitely exist as long as enough of their believers exist.

Should I answer yes?

I do not believe that the Gods that any of the patriarchal religions construct is an accurate representing of the true state of the Universe.

Should I answer no, then?

"Yes" has caught up a lot over the last twenty pages or so. Intresting.

you seriously read it all? if so I am deeply impressed, I read a page and a half and jumped right in, lol

I believe Gods definitely exist as long as enough of their believers exist.

Should I answer yes?

I do not believe that the Gods that any of the patriarchal religions construct is an accurate representing of the true state of the Universe.

Should I answer no, then?

you should answer 'yes' so long as enough believers in various religions fulfill your quota to sustain the existence of said god (or however exactly you believe it to be)

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?Hey, which one is it? The poll has a diff query than the thread title! :(

It made sense to me...

oh, well I might be less smart than you... thanks for making me sad, and all ready to cry now jerkhead!!!

lol, sorry, but yeah, maybe I am jsut tired and yeah, I dunno, I am not too willing to go super deep in thought veins that I have enver traveled before either, so that might be the problem... could you explain it to me (perhaps the original author is absentee I haven't heard form them)

because it is up to each of us to amke our own choices, and althoug He does not smite, He can provide a method of deliverance (besides slow and painful death) for the victim of sucha wrong doing, perhaps God orchestrates matters just enough so that the police arrive in the exact moment need to spare the poor person his otherwise fate, or some suc other deliverance

You should know for a fact that that rarely happens.

I know that it's up to us to make our own choices. But God punishes us when we're dead by way of hell. God, in his infinite power can see that a person will not repent in the future. So, why doesn't he smite the sadist, and send them off to hell, before the victim is harmed?

Hey, which one is it? The poll has a diff query than the thread title! :(

I thikn it can be generally assumed that if we say God exists we have faith in Him (faith in His existence if nothing else)

I thikn it can be generally assumed that if we say God exists we have faith in Him (faith in His existence if nothing else)

You couldn't say "there's a God, and he's terribly unreliable"?

You should know for a fact that that rarely happens.

I know that it's up to us to make our own choices. But God punishes us when we're dead by way of hell. God, in his infinite power can see that a person will not repent in the future. So, why doesn't he smite the sadist, and send them off to hell, before the victim is harmed?

please please, I have already been through all of thi, if you would like to go back several pages to see all of my reasoning, but I will give you the short answer, because if God smote him (right tense?) then God would remove his choice to repent, now, I understand that God can know whether or not that man (or woman) will repent, but that is irregardless, they must be left with the choice until their death (naturally or not) because if God took away their right to repent He wouldn't be a loving God, even if He knew the outcome would be their unrepentance

you should answer 'yes' so long as enough believers in various religions fulfill your quota to sustain the existence of said god (or however exactly you believe it to be)

I can't answer yes. People will think I stand with the patriarchal folk in their belief of petty provincial Gods. Words cannot express how much I disagree with their view of the Universe.

I can't answer no. People will think that I deny the existence of organization in the Universe, or ignore the social force of (especially) patriarchal religions.

You couldn't say "there's a God, and he's terribly unreliable"?

no, because that is't what I was trying to communicat,e and Gos is extrmely reiiable in what He has promised reliability, I was merely reconciling the difference between the thread topic, and the actual vote question, which I tried to explain more or less mean the smae thing in the context that the author of the thread meant it

EDIT: wow, really sorry about the spelling in this, like I said before, tired

I can't answer yes. People will think I stand with the patriarchal folk in their belief of petty provincial Gods. Words cannot express how much I disagree with their view of the Universe.

I can't answer no. People will think that I deny the existence of organization in the Universe, or ignore the social force of (especially) patriarchal religions.

could you not jsut say 'yes, but here is what specifically I belive....' and checking the 'yes' box for the vote gives no condition, so don't feel the need to be constrained by them (I wouldn't, forutnately, I have Christian belieffs, which I think are most addressed by the topic of the thread)

please please, I have already been through all of thi, if you would like to go back several pages to see all of my reasoning, but I will give you the short answer, because if God smote him (right tense?) then God would remove his choice to repent, now, I understand that God can know whether or not that man (or woman) will repent, but that is irregardless, they must be left with the choice until their death (naturally or not) because if God took away their right to repent He wouldn't be a loving God, even if He knew the outcome would be their unrepentance

So we agree that God knows whether or not we will repent. So God knows before he creates the universe who will repent and who won't. Yet he allows the people who won't repent to come into existence, with the purpose of not repenting and spending the next eternity in hellfire. This doesn't sound like a loving God to me. If I loved someone I'd prevent them the pain of eternity in hell. How is condemning someone to hell before they're even created love?

God exists. Each man, woman, and child, must find within themselves, Faith in God. There is a reason God does not appear, to prove himself, why he lets the innocent die, and let the guilty live. There is a reason, why war still exists, why famine still rages, and evil walks the earth. The answer has already been given, and has been told to you, many diffrent times, in many diffrent ways. I do not pray, for it to get better, as most might, I pray for it to get worse. Because, before it must get worse, to get better. I shall not try to convience you God exists, I will not share my reasoning, for my reasons, my evidence, no matter solid, will always be insuffient for another.

I'm not even going to tell you to read the bible, to pray, to go to church, to talk with cathlics, christians, are any other abrahmic religion. Its not necessary, and impeds upon your free will. You've obviously heard the message at some point, or you wouldn't be asking the poll question you have.

Your faith is your problem, and its up to you to find it, no one else can do it for you. Otherwise, you'll need some really good sunblock.

God exists. Each man, woman, and child, must find within themselves, Faith in God. There is a reason God does not appear, to prove himself, why he lets the innocent die, and let the guilty live. There is a reason, why war still exists, why famine still rages, and evil walks the earth. The answer has already been given, and has been told to you, many diffrent times, in many diffrent ways. I do not pray, for it to get better, as most might, I pray for it to get worse. Because, before it must get worse, to get better. I shall not try to convience you God exists, I will not share my reasoning, for my reasons, my evidence, no matter solid, will always be insuffient for another.

I'm not even going to tell you to read the bible, to pray, to go to church, to talk with cathlics, christians, are any other abrahmic religion. Its not necessary, and impeds upon your free will. You've obviously heard the message at some point, or you wouldn't be asking the poll question you have.

Your faith is your problem, and its up to you to find it, no one else can do it for you. Otherwise, you'll need some really good sunblock.


See this is the problem. Faith. We don't want faith. Faith is just ignorance with a nice dress and a ribbon in it's hair. We want truth, which cannot be found through faith.

So we agree that God knows whether or not we will repent. So God knows before he creates the universe who will repent and who won't. Yet he allows the people who won't repent to come into existence, with the purpose of not repenting and spending the next eternity in hellfire. This doesn't sound like a loving God to me. If I loved someone I'd prevent them the pain of eternity in hell. How is condemning someone to hell before they're even created love?
How could God love someone, if he did not grant them freewill, and the oppurtunity to love him, as he loves them?

So we agree that God knows whether or not we will repent. So God knows before he creates the universe who will repent and who won't. Yet he allows the people who won't repent to come into existence, with the purpose of not repenting and spending the next eternity in hellfire. This doesn't sound like a loving God to me. If I loved someone I'd prevent them the pain of eternity in hell. How is condemning someone to hell before they're even created love?

He does not condemn them befoere their birth to Hell, however, it is true that He does know who will repent and who won't, the point is that even though He knows the choice still must be given, angels worship free of choice, but Gods wants devotion that is genuine, and not forced, so He must allow everyone to make their own choices, even though He knows (and laments for) all of those whose actions (or sometimes inactions) will cause condemnation after this life

See this is the problem. Faith. We don't want faith. Faith is just ignorance with a nice dress and a ribbon in it's hair. We want truth, which cannot be found through faith.
Then I ask you, what is truth? What is Ignorance? Who is ignorant, who is knowledgeable. Is knowledge a bases for truth?

He does not condemn them befoere their birth to Hell, however, it is true that He does know who will repent and who won't, the point is that even though He knows the choice still must be given, angels worship free of choice, but Gods wants devotion that is genuine, and not forced, so He must allow everyone to make their own choices, even though He knows (and laments for) all of those whose actions (or sometimes inactions) will cause condemnation after this life

The point is that he allows evil into the world. Yes, I know, you use that crappy free will defense. But God is infinitely powerful. He has the ability to create a world in which choice and free will is rampant, yet evil is non-existant. WHY does he not do that?

See this is the problem. Faith. We don't want faith. Faith is just ignorance with a nice dress and a ribbon in it's hair. We want truth, which cannot be found through faith.

but that is not universaly accepted, many of us do want faith, me for example, as much faith as God can inspire in me "So if you think you can make some faith here inside, I'll drive off and marry You" Jars of Clay form the song "Only Alive" singing to God

I thikn it can be generally assumed that if we say God exists we have faith in Him (faith in His existence if nothing else)
Here's where we will show how that kind of thinking doesn't work:

George W. Bush obviously exists and i have approximately ZERO faith in him.
So what're you shootin' at?

Then I ask you, what is truth? What is Ignorance? Who is ignorant, who is knowledgeable. Is knowledge a bases for truth?

Knowledge and truth are mutually exclusive. Ignorance is turning a blind eye to evidence. Truth is that which is deduced through the logical process. No physical law, ie universal gravitation, conservation of energy, can be onsidered truth because it relies upon assumption. I suggest you consult a philosophy dictionary if you require the meaning of these words.

The point is that he allows evil into the world. Yes, I know, you use that crappy free will defense. But God is infinitely powerful. He has the ability to create a world in which choice and free will is rampant, yet evil is non-existant. WHY does he not do that?

because if evil, an hence sin do not exist we cannot choose it, and if we can only choose good, and right, then is that really freewill? If we cannot reject good what choice do we have?

You couldn't say "there's a God, and he's terribly unreliable"?
Let's hope that people like me don't respond to that with things like, for example ...
"i would have to base that on personal experience of response to prayer, nature, and logic ... as to how reliable 'God' is."

but that is not universaly accepted, many of us do want faith, me for example, as much faith as God can inspire in me "So if you think you can make some faith here inside, I'll drive off and marry You" Jars of Clay form the song "Only Alive" singing to God

Well it's nice to see that you are strengthening your faith by being on NS General. You're my type of religious person.:fluffle:

Knowledge and truth are mutually exclusive. Ignorance is turning a blind eye to evidence. Truth is that which is deduced through the logical process. No physical law, ie universal gravitation, conservation of energy, can be onsidered truth because it relies upon assumption. I suggest you consult a philosophy dictionary if you require the meaning of these words.

I don't mean to nitpick, but wouldn't Truth be a universal constant regardless of whether it is logical? or what if it is not yet discovered throgh logical process? does that make it untrue for now?

See this is the problem. Faith. We don't want faith. Faith is just ignorance with a nice dress and a ribbon in it's hair. We want truth, which cannot be found through faith.

Truth is just faith, wearing a different coloured ribbon and a pair of Levis.

The problem is that we want to be certain, in some way. Some of us are content to be certain in our religious internal experience, others want to be certain of what is out there (if there is a there to be out) which we tend to cal truth. In any final analysis, however, any truth will depend on your personal faith in the means of evaluation.

I, personally, do not believe in any God or gods and am not convinced of the existence of souls etc. Nevertheless I do not seek the "truth" as this would be to set up some absolute, and that is excactly what I am denying when I deny the existance of deities.

Of course I have faith in God. If I didn't, then I would have to change my siggy and I really don't want to do that. :D

because if evil, an hence sin do not exist we cannot choose it, and if we can only choose good, and right, then is that really freewill? If we cannot reject good what choice do we have?

Oh so you're limiting God's power now are you? You see, God is transendent. He can break, actually completely shatter, the laws of logic and common sense, because he is God. So he can actually create a world of free will, but of no evil.

Well it's nice to see that you are strengthening your faith by being on NS General. You're my type of religious person.:fluffle:

AAAHHH!!!! I am being groped!!!!

lol, enough of that, but I don't exactly understand your comment, how am I strengthing my faith (or, assuming you were actually being sarcastic, how am I doing the contrary?)

Truth is just faith, wearing a different coloured ribbon and a pair of Levis.

The problem is that we want to be certain, in some way. Some of us are content to be certain in our religious internal experience, others want to be certain of what is out there (if there is a there to be out) which we tend to cal truth. In any final analysis, however, any truth will depend on your personal faith in the means of evaluation.

I, personally, do not believe in any God or gods and am not convinced of the existence of souls etc. Nevertheless I do not seek the "truth" as this would be to set up some absolute, and that is excactly what I am denying when I deny the existance of deities.

Ok. That is so incredibly ignorant that I'm just going to ignore you from now on. *steps away slowly*

because if evil, an hence sin do not exist we cannot choose it, and if we can only choose good, and right, then is that really freewill? If we cannot reject good what choice do we have?

What about evil which is not caused by humanity? Not exactly evil, perhaps, but things like natural disasters. Getting rid of those would not infringe on human free will.

Oh so you're limiting God's power now are you? You see, God is transendent. He can break, actually completely shatter, the laws of logic and common sense, because he is God. So he can actually create a world of free will, but of no evil.

but it would still render us humies no choice, eve though God could have full choice, we are still bound by the laws under which He created us (logic, physics, etc.) even though He might not be

AAAHHH!!!! I am being groped!!!!

lol, enough of that, but I don't exactly understand your comment, how am I strengthing my faith (or, assuming you were actually being sarcastic, how am I doing the contrary?)

Well the one type of person I really hate is the christian nut who is afraid to enter debate because they fear deep down inside that there will be something that will stump them and cause their faith to weaken. I like you because you're not afraid to debate.:fluffle:

What about evil which is not caused by humanity? Not exactly evil, perhaps, but things like natural disasters. Getting rid of those would not infringe on human free will.

hmm, that is true, but I am not skilled to understand that one, maybe God will answer you directly, although God is not known for deliberately sparing people from trauma, even if it impeded no free will, trauma often brings people to God, perhaps it is kept around for its advantages, and God never said that the earth would cooperate just as "The rain falls on the Just and the Unjust" so to do benefits, and banes

Ok. That is so incredibly ignorant that I'm just going to ignore you from now on. *steps away slowly*

What you mean is that you have no way of answering the point, or are you deliberately trying to be insulting?

Explain to me, or the others in this thread then, in what way truth can be discovered without some kind of implicit, unquestioning faith. Be this in the evidence of your senses, in the teachings of history or whatever.

but it would still render us humies no choice, eve though God could have full choice, we are still bound by the laws under which He created us (logic, physics, etc.) even though He might not be

Look, god is going to create new laws of logic/physics for us under which it is possible to have free will always and still not have evil. He can do that. Why doesn't he.

Oh so you're limiting God's power now are you? You see, God is transendent. He can break, actually completely shatter, the laws of logic and common sense, because he is God. So he can actually create a world of free will, but of no evil.

Unless, instead, your version of God is a concept that, in order to believe in, you must surrender logic and common sense...

(I'll bet somebody here has a version of God that doesn't have that limitation...at least I hope so...)

hmm, that is true, but I am not skilled to understand that one, maybe God will answer you directly, although God is not known for deliberately sparing people from trauma, even if it impeded no free will, trauma often brings people to God, perhaps it is kept around for its advantages, and God never said that the earth would cooperate just as "The rain falls on the Just and the Unjust" so to do benefits, and banes

Again, God is all-powerful. He supposedly doesn't need silly things like trauma to bring people to him. I think if God actually came out, appeared in the sky and broadcast that he existed to the whole world and his reasons for evil and suchlike, almost everyone would follow him of their own free will. Why doesn't he do that?

Well the one type of person I really hate is the christian nut who is afraid to enter debate because they fear deep down inside that there will be something that will stump them and cause their faith to weaken. I like you because you're not afraid to debate.:fluffle:

wow really? thank you, that actually really means a lot
and for you ability to admire that which you oppose, I also like you attitude about it :D (no groping on this end though, lol)

What you mean is that you have no way of answering the point, or are you deliberately trying to be insulting?

Explain to me, or the others in this thread then, in what way truth can be discovered without some kind of implicit, unquestioning faith. Be this in the evidence of your senses, in the teachings of history or whatever.

Definition. Truth does not rely upon obervation and assumption. eg, Lets define a number line. -2 -1 0 1 2. The number line doesn't have to be part of the natural world. Doesn't have to actually exist physically. We just come up with one. Let's define an operation. +. You define '+' as a move to the right along the number line. Thus we start at 1. Then do the + operation once. We end up at 2. Thus: 1 + 1 = 2. Truth. For all observers with the equivalent numberline and operation, 1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

No assumption. Same for everyone. Truth.

Unless, instead, your version of God is a concept that, in order to believe in, you must surrender logic and common sense...

(I'll bet somebody here has a version of God that doesn't have that limitation...at least I hope so...)
That may be me. Whatever sense of meta-humanity or deific principle i subscribe to kind of requires me to stop getting caught up in the infatile preoccupations that apparently are required of most of the power trip-oriented religions of terra.
But i'm not gonna commit, either.

The point is that he allows evil into the world. Yes, I know, you use that crappy free will defense. But God is infinitely powerful. He has the ability to create a world in which choice and free will is rampant, yet evil is non-existant. WHY does he not do that?

The answer to that question depends entirely on why God would make the universe in the first place.

Again, God is all-powerful. He supposedly doesn't need silly things like trauma to bring people to him. I think if God actually came out, appeared in the sky and broadcast that he existed to the whole world and his reasons for evil and suchlike, almost everyone would follow him of their own free will. Why doesn't he do that?

Because, for some unknown reason, he wants us to have faith in him, and not have to prove his existence. If he were to prove that he existed (which appearing in the sky and addressing us would not actually do, but that is another issue) then faith in God becomes meaningless.

Again, God is all-powerful. He supposedly doesn't need silly things like trauma to bring people to him. I think if God actually came out, appeared in the sky and broadcast that he existed to the whole world and his reasons for evil and suchlike, almost everyone would follow him of their own free will. Why doesn't he do that?

because faith in God is meant to be special, if He made a way for everyone to unquestioningly believe in Him then Him sacrifiing Christ was pointless, and belief in Him wouldnt be special would it? if everyone believed what owuld be the point of Him creating us (should He make it rediculous to not believe, like broadcasting it, for example)

Definition. Truth does not rely upon obervation and assumption. eg, Lets define a number line. -2 -1 0 1 2. The number line doesn't have to be part of the natural world. Doesn't have to actually exist physically. We just come up with one. Let's define an operation. +. You define '+' as a move to the right along the number line. Thus we start at 1. Then do the + operation once. We end up at 2. Thus: 1 + 1 = 2. Truth. For all observers with the equivalent numberline and operation, 1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

No assumption. Same for everyone. Truth.

Based on arbitrary axioms. I have some small experience with discrete mathematics, and any diligent teacher (or student) follows that these things are true to the extent the axioms are accepted.

Its actually quite funny that you consider these things to be independent of "assumption". The definitions of the numbers and their operators are assumptions in and of themselves. Any "truths" about God(s) are also predicated on certain assumptions.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't personally buy into any particular God or other, I just feel that any belief about it requires certain speculations as axioms.

Look, god is going to create new laws of logic/physics for us under which it is possible to have free will always and still not have evil. He can do that. Why doesn't he.
I don't know, I honestly don't...

Because, for some unknown reason, he wants us to have faith in him, and not have to prove his existence. If he were to prove that he existed (which appearing in the sky and addressing us would not actually do, but that is another issue) then faith in God becomes meaningless.

How is it supposed to be meaningful in the first place?

Definition. Truth does not rely upon obervation and assumption. eg, Lets define a number line. -2 -1 0 1 2. The number line doesn't have to be part of the natural world. Doesn't have to actually exist physically. We just come up with one. Let's define an operation. +. You define '+' as a move to the right along the number line. Thus we start at 1. Then do the + operation once. We end up at 2. Thus: 1 + 1 = 2. Truth. For all observers with the equivalent numberline and operation, 1 + 1 = 2 is truth.

No assumption. Same for everyone. Truth.

But unreal, and therefore not true. The problem is that a true statement is one in which the denotation of the statement corresponds to the referent of the statement. In mathematics there is no referent, only a denotation, and as such, by definition, a mathematical sentance can be right or wrong, but not true or false (See Frege's Uber Sinn and Bedeutung and Russell's paradox. )

Because, for some unknown reason, he wants us to have faith in him, and not have to prove his existence. If he were to prove that he existed (which appearing in the sky and addressing us would not actually do, but that is another issue) then faith in God becomes meaningless.

It had meaning in the first place? God created me with a desire for truth. I cannot ignore my desire, it's too strong, and it's god's fault it's like that. He then wants to punish me, because I did what he created me to do? What an arse.

In a word? No.

How is it supposed to be meaningful in the first place?

That is something I have never understood. Ask someone who believes in God.

How is it supposed to be meaningful in the first place?

because He gives us just enough to believe in Him with, and should we shun evil for Him (though evil is our nature) then we are doing somethign for Him that is meaningful for him

But unreal, and therefore not true. The problem is that a true statement is one in which the denotation of the statement corresponds to the referent of the statement. In mathematics there is no referent, only a denotation, and as such, by definition, a mathematical sentance can be right or wrong, but not true or false (See Frege's Uber Sinn and Bedeutung and Russell's paradox. )

Yeah, just sounds like a bunch of techno-babble to me.
When does 1 apple + 1 apple not equal 2 apples?

because He gives us just enough to believe in Him with, and should we shun evil for Him (though evil is our nature) then we are doing somethign for Him that is meaningful for him

How so?
It just sounds like a cruel psychological experiment to me.

It had meaning in the first place? God created me with a desire for truth. I cannot ignore my desire, it's too strong, and it's god's fault it's like that. He then wants to punish me, because I did what he created me to do? What an arse.

I agree with you there. I was simply providing the traditional theological response to the demand that God proves his existence.

That is something I have never understood. Ask someone who believes in God.

Heck, man. I believe in God.
I just don't know why people pick random things like "free will" and "faith" and assume that they're somehow ultimately important to God.

I don't know, I honestly don't...

Well, if he does exist, you'll find out when you die, and you'll be a happy person.

ok, serisoly it is too late to do this for any more hours, lol, it ha been somewhat fun, although you have all managed to keep me on my toes (sometimes forcong me off of them) but that is ok, lol, it happens, and Commie, it was nice talking/debating with you, and g'night all

Well, if he does exist, you'll find out when you die, and you'll be a happy person.

my sentiments the same (only minus the 'if' lol) and thank you for your optimism, lol

ok, serisoly it is too late to do this for any more hours, lol, it ha been somewhat fun, although you have all managed to keep me on my toes (sometimes forcong me off of them) but that is ok, lol, it happens, and Commie, it was nice talking/debating with you, and g'night all

Nice chatting with you too. Bye.

Yeah, just sounds like a bunch of techno-babble to me.
When does 1 apple + 1 apple not equal 2 apples?

What is an apple? It is an object, something in the world. Counting objects depends upon faith in your senses. When I ask what is an apple, what I mean is how do you now that what is in front of you when you are looking at an apple is just one object? If it is not then when I add another to it, I get 1 Apple + 1 apple = I don't know how many as my 1 apple may not be 1 apple after all.
The way you and I know that 1 apple is 1 apple is becuse we place implicit and unquestioning faith in our senses, which is the point I was making to start with.

Heck, man. I believe in God.
I just don't know why people pick random things like "free will" and "faith" and assume that they're somehow ultimately important to God.
They're not necessarily - but they are absolutely crucial in import to the fencers of "god".

But unreal, and therefore not true. The problem is that a true statement is one in which the denotation of the statement corresponds to the referent of the statement. In mathematics there is no referent, only a denotation, and as such, by definition, a mathematical sentance can be right or wrong, but not true or false (See Frege's Uber Sinn and Bedeutung and Russell's paradox. )

We obviously have different ideas of what truth is then. It's to be expected. Not exactly the type of concept you can define in words.

Heck, man. I believe in God.
I just don't know why people pick random things like "free will" and "faith" and assume that they're somehow ultimately important to God.

So what value does faith have for you? And how would this be devalued if God were to prove his existence?
If it would not be devalued, and believing in God is a good (which I assume it would be if He were to exist) then His not proving His existence is an evil act.

Based on arbitrary axioms. I have some small experience with discrete mathematics, and any diligent teacher (or student) follows that these things are true to the extent the axioms are accepted.

Its actually quite funny that you consider these things to be independent of "assumption". The definitions of the numbers and their operators are assumptions in and of themselves. Any "truths" about God(s) are also predicated on certain assumptions.

EDIT: To be clear, I don't personally buy into any particular God or other, I just feel that any belief about it requires certain speculations as axioms.

What do you mean by "are assumptions in and of themselves"?

Yeah, just sounds like a bunch of techno-babble to me.
When does 1 apple + 1 apple not equal 2 apples?

When the operation + means "do absolutely nothing".

What do you mean by "are assumptions in and of themselves"?

Well, for example, the idea of what "one" or "plus" are. To communicate ideas, you and I agree to certain definitions, and we assume them to be consistent with one another. Its a reasonable way to exchange information.

But in some other system, one and plus might mean different things. So, these "truths" have a truth that is commensurate with the veracity and adherence to the agreed upon assumptions.

Most views on "God" require assumptions that are perhaps not as unilaterally embraced as the number system or the basic arithmetic operators.

EDIT: I see by the post above mine that you already see a lot this, so my bad.

ok, so how sad is it that Icouldnt resist finished my homework and rushed back here? I am addicted to the debate now

aaarrgghh... fighting the addicitons... addictions winning...

and so here I am!

ok, so how sad is it that Icouldnt resist finished my homework and rushed back here? I am addicted to the debate now

aaarrgghh... fighting the addicitons... addictions winning...

and so here I am!

Addicts probably wouldn't have the restraint to at least finish the homework...you're still an "enthusiast".

When your family and friends plan an intervention, then you get your "addict" pin.

ok, so how sad is it that Icouldnt resist finished my homework and rushed back here? I am addicted to the debate now

aaarrgghh... fighting the addicitons... addictions winning...

and so here I am!

Yes... yes... you cannot resist. Come to the dark side. Embrace NS General and you will receive unlimited power.
*gasps*
Run! Run! It's too late for me but you can save yourself!
*choke*
You cannot escape the reach of the General forums. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well, for example, the idea of what "one" or "plus" are. To communicate ideas, you and I agree to certain definitions, and we assume them to be consistent with one another. Its a reasonable way to exchange information.

But in some other system, one and plus might mean different things. So, these "truths" have a truth that is commensurate with the veracity and adherence to the agreed upon assumptions.

Most views on "God" require assumptions that are perhaps not as unilaterally embraced as the number system or the basic arithmetic operators.

EDIT: I see by the post above mine that you already see a lot this, so my bad.

That is true. *no pun intended*

But when we refer to something as truth, the 'for this system' is left out because it is assumed. This doesn't devalue truth in any way, it just means that we have to be a little more prudent when communicating a truth to another person.

Addicts probably wouldn't have the restraint to at least finish the homework...you're still an "enthusiast".

When your family and friends plan an intervention, then you get your "addict" pin.

ok, fine, since I am here, and my nerves have calmed down a bit, I can accept your definition, lol, but when the cravings were happening... I don't know, heh

so now I am pretty out of the loop, anyone want to throw a question at me?

What subject was your homework for?

So what value does faith have for you?

No inherent value. Faith can be good or bad.

And how would this be devalued if God were to prove his existence?

Not one bit.

If it would not be devalued, and believing in God is a good (which I assume it would be if He were to exist) then His not proving His existence is an evil act.

Believing in God gives you and edge in life (assuming that God exists), but is not ultimately important.

That is true. *no pun intended*

But when we refer to something as truth, the 'for this system' is left out because it is assumed. This doesn't devalue truth in any way, it just means that we have to be a little more prudent when communicating a truth to another person.

That seems reasonable. I just find that many religious systems tend to consider their axioms to be universal, and want their axioms to be adopted for reasons that are dependent on the axioms themselves.

When the operation + means "do absolutely nothing".

? + ? = ??

so now I am pretty out of the loop, anyone want to throw a question at me?


Umm.. Ok... Let's see.....

Ah. God sent his only son to die for our sins? Why does he demand a sacrafice? A dead saviour is no good to anybody. Can't he just say, "Ok. Let's just forget the entire original sin thing ever happened."?

Believing in God gives you and edge in life (assuming that God exists), but is not ultimately important.

So, we agree that there's no edge of if there's no God, but if there is a God, I'm not sure He/She/It will like your line of reasoning here...

What subject was your homework for?

lol, thank you for the bone, it was an English paper for my required course (yuck) and it was about how the U.S. military subsidizes cosmetic surgery costs for soldiers (some restrictions do apply, but it is the principle that it is supported by the tax dollar) I looked at both sides, and found a pretty nice shade of grey to argue for

So, we agree that there's no edge of if there's no God,

Not quite. Even if there is no God, belief in Him can still provide an edge.
Or it can mess you up.
Basically, without God, the belief in God can go either way.

but if there is a God, I'm not sure He/She/It will like your line of reasoning here...

If God wanted everybody to believe in Him, then everybody would.

? + ? = ??

I believe in this context of "+ means do nothing", it would serve as a unary operator, so your statement might read:

x + = x

That seems reasonable. I just find that many religious systems tend to consider their axioms to be universal, and want their axioms to be adopted for reasons that are dependent on the axioms themselves.

Yes. The first cause argument for example. They assume that the beginning of the universe was the first event, and can't seem to comprehend anything outside of the universe [except God].