NationStates Jolt Archive

Oh the usual. One side sez ol' uncle Yahweh is a mass murderer, the other points to his compassion and being beyond human laws and stuff. While I subliminally convince them to worship chocolate. It's all good really...
Thankie thankie.


Gimme an obscure reference! Gimme gimme!
Already did. It's up there. There's two of them in the same post - a reply to Corny. *nods*

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11053504&postcount=4495

I know I'm miles behind in this now, so sorry! and I can't post a proper response right now as I need to be somewhere.

Just wanted to say, I'll try to respond later if I can.

Also, I'm pretty new to getting involved in forums so it's quite a new medium for me. I'm starting to see some drawbacks:

While writing rather than actually yelling at one another it offers an unrivalled opportunity to compose our thoughts and try to place them in some type of significant order, there are also lots of people doing the same (such is the design and nature of a forum) and so the debate becomes difficult to follow. Just as I can't recall who said what x number of pages ago, neither can I possibly expect any of you to remember what I said previously.

It kind of sucks because when you write, you think you're building on what you've previously said, but naturally....who's going to remember that? It was AGES ago!!!! Ah well.

Any of you Forum veterans have any suggestions for getting the most out of the medium?



BTW
Thanks for all your responses - it's nice to imagine I stimulated a bit of conversation!! I've enjoyed reading them even if I don't entirely agree. Thanks too to the individuals actually praising my post.... gosh.... head swelling! Not used to being listened to!!! ;-)



Kin Wicked

God Appeared to Moses as a burning bush, he appeared to others in many guises.Ya know, for a second, i got the image of that rascally band of desert wanderers killing time and trying to eat whatever they found - so Moses (supposes erroneously) picks something orange up and eats it, and weirds out a little. So some other followers wanna party with him, and he ends up lighting farts, and when one gives him a pain sensation (by being a little TOO close to "home base") his brain responds with instilling a quick authoritative hallucination.

Just a thought.
;)

Yes GOD IS REAL as is the Lord Jesus and the Holy Ghost . I'm not sure why your friend was taken at this time in her life. I do know that if you are sincere in your asking God would answer that question for you. So go to the only one who can truely answer that question. Meanwhile I will continue to pray for you and the family of your friend.

Yes GOD IS REAL as is the Lord Jesus and the Holy Ghost. I'm not sure why your friend was taken at this time in her life. I do know that if you are sincere in your asking God would answer that question for you. So go to the only one who can truely answer that question. Meanwhile I will continue to pray for you and the family of your friend.

Finally some sense. God bless you.

Now that we've voted God out of existence, can I have his stuff?
As Steven Wright so aptly posed ....
where would you put it?

Now that we've voted God out of existence, can I have his stuff?

You're living on it.

Finally some sense. God bless you.
*wipes nose*
...finally the right tool for the right job...

Don't remember who said it, but it went something like:

"If God is real, all our doubt could not kill him. If God is not real, all our prayer's will not make him."Another keeper.

Unless that lunatic I met at a conference was right, and belief creates reality for whoever wills it hardest...A true Montauk Disciple. :gundge:

*wipes nose*
...finally the right tool for the right job...

Oh I get it! A sneeze! :p

*slaps forehead*

I hate to break this to you all, but just because you voted that God doesn't exist doesn't make it true. Let's say that one of you are named Jim, does it make any sense for me to take a poll on it to ask other people if it really is Jim? If I said I don't believe your name is Jim and many other people agreed with me ... would that make it so? Of course not ... so don't ask each other if the Lord and God exist go to the only ones that truely know the answer you are looking for.

I hate to break this to you all, but just because you voted that God doesn't exist doesn't make it true. That is true. However, so is the reverse: Just because you voted for him doesn't mean he does.

I hate to break this to you all, but just because you voted that God doesn't exist doesn't make it true. Let's say that one of you are named Jim, does it make any sense for me to take a poll on it to ask other people if it really is Jim? If I said I don't believe your name is Jim and many other people agreed with me ... would that make it so? Of course not ... so don't ask each other if the Lord and God exist go to the only ones that truely know the answer you are looking for.
It's funny that if you turn the argument around it works equally well.

I am so certain of God's existence that if I die and He does not exist, I'll kill myself.

He exist and nothing these people can say will change that. Not only does he exist he loves all men doesn't wish to see anyone die unsaved, but how can he offer you eternal life with him in heaven if you don't believe he exist?

He exist and nothing these people can say will change that. Not only does he exist he loves all men doesn't wish to see anyone die unsaved, but how can he offer you eternal life with him in heaven if you don't believe he exist?
So it's back to the 'believe in me or suffer eternal damnation again'? I'm sorry but I will not be held at gunpoint by some sick twisted God.

I am so certain of God's existence that if I die and He does not exist, I'll kill myself.

But you'll be dead, so how can you... ne'er mind.

If the true God only accepts Porn and Chocolate lovers into Heaven, will you kill yourself?

He exist and nothing these people can say will change that. Not only does he exist he loves all men doesn't wish to see anyone die unsaved, but how can he offer you eternal life with him in heaven if you don't believe he exist?

If your god loved all men, equally, it would not demand worship, nor would it condemn people for not believing in it because doing so is a contradiction.

He exist and nothing these people can say will change that.The point isn't that He doesn't or does exist. The point is that you can't know for sure, you can only convince yourself that you know.
Not only does he exist he loves all men doesn't wish to see anyone die unsaved, but how can he offer you eternal life with him in heaven if you don't believe he exist?If God really is the all loving being, would he really care?

He exist and nothing these people can say will change that. Not only does he exist he loves all men doesn't wish to see anyone die unsaved, but how can he offer you eternal life with him in heaven if you don't believe he exist?

Actually he doesn't care whether you believe he exists or not. If you're not into Porn or Chocolate or Interstellar Travel or Lunatic Goofballs then you get to hang around, but you won't get the goodies. :cool:

You are forgetting that another being exist, one that is evil and doesn't want you to believe in the Lord because if you don't then he believes that makes you his. It is your choice, God has granted freewill to all men.

It is your choice, God has granted freewill to all men.

The most noble act in history.

You are forgetting that another being exist, one that is evil and doesn't want you to believe in the Lord because if you don't then he believes that makes you his. It is your choice, God has granted freewill to all men.

But I do believe in God. Your being is the evil one. And you have the freewill not to follow your evil being. Quite so.

*examines manicure*

Satan is the Evil Being I speak of and it looks like you are bowing to his rule of your life. I am truely sorry to hear that but that is what freewill is all about.

JuNii, there's a fundamental difference between divine decree & manmade rules.

Divine decree is non-negotiable. human rules among free peoples, are mutually agreed upon, and people can't only change these rules, they can avoid them altogether. If I want to be covered by the DMCA, for example, I can move to the US. If an American don't, s/he can leave the US (or Australia, as it is).

Mankind is also wholly incapable of seeking vengeance to the extent your god does it. Even a lifetime of torture is utter bliss, compared to what your god would do to me, if it existed.

If you didn't pass judgement on your god, then why would you object to me doing it? Why would you find your god fit for worship? Why would you claim your god is benign, or strict, or just?
It makes no sense.

You spin the issue, as if I thought science or law was the pinnacle of human achievement. You're of course free to do so, but I fail to see how throwing mud in my general direction, alters the actions of your god.
- In case you're interested, by the way, I personally think the hight of human achievement is the golden rule. Perhaps it is a failing on my part, but glorifying monsters that have no regard for the humanity they claim to love, makes me doubt the sanity of the believers. Goodwin be damned, reading your posts, is like reading a neo-nazi trivialising the Holocaust. If that's the message of love you spread, then.. Well.. It's hard to comment & keep it civil. Not that you piss me off, but I have a feeling I might be pissing you off.

Satan is the Evil Being I speak of and it looks like you are bowing to his rule of your life. I am truely sorry to hear that but that is what freewill is all about.I'm truely sorry you've given your free will up :)

I did not come here to argue. I came to answer the authors question as best I could. I have now done so. Now it is up to each of you to choose for yourself.

I'm truely sorry you've given your free will up :)
The idea of god implies the abdication of human reason & justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty & necessarily ends in the enslavement of manking both in theory & practice.
He who desires to worship god must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty & humanity.
-- Mikhail Bakunin

Couldn't help that one.

Satan is the Evil Being I speak of and it looks like you are bowing to his rule of your life. I am truely sorry to hear that but that is what freewill is all about.

Nah I know who Satan is. He is the one you're following. However I'm not sorry to hear that since Hell is what you preach and Hell is what you deserve. That is what freewill is all about.

Satan is the Evil Being I speak of and it looks like you are bowing to his rule of your life. I am truely sorry to hear that but that is what freewill is all about.
Wait... If I'm bowing to Satans' rule doesn't that kind of rule out free will? Try using logic next time.

I'm Agnostic, leaning towards Athiest. I think God is the Devil.

The idea of god implies the abdication of human reason & justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty & necessarily ends in the enslavement of manking both in theory & practice.
He who desires to worship god must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty & humanity.
-- Mikhail Bakunin

Couldn't help that one.


Does the ol saying the Devil made me do it fit?

Does the ol saying the Devil made me do it fit?
I say it wouldn't bearing in mind Satan doesn't exist.

I'm Agnostic, leaning towards Athiest. I think God is the Devil.

:D Your a funny guy

:D Your a funny guy

You're funny too. :D

I say it wouldn't bearing in mind Satan doesn't exist.


Satan would love to convince the world he doesn't exist so all the evil he does will be blamed on God. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap.

You're funny too. :D

I will pray that the Lord will reveil himself to you.

Satan would love to convince the world he doesn't exist so all the evil he does will be blamed on God. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap.Of course, it could also be that Satan wants you to think he's God and that God is Satan. If he managed to pull it off, he'd be in a laughing fit.

Satan would love to convince the world he doesn't exist so all the evil he does will be blamed on God. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap.

Not really, Satan would love to convince the world that he is God so that all the evil he does is justifiable in the name of God. Since God is on God's Law and beyond human reproach. And all his followers will defend him to the death no matter what he makes his followers do. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap!

*downs another toblerone*

A question was asked I answered ... Good Bye

Satan would love to convince the world he doesn't exist so all the evil he does will be blamed on God. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap.

The think with Satan that I don't get is he was an angel that rebeled against God yeah? He rebeled because he didn't like God treating humans better than agels, what with us having the whole free will thing, where the angels where built without free will as servants of God.

So how the hell did he manage to rebel with no free will?

I will pray that the Lord will reveil himself to you.

He already did.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=479090&page=295

BTW You made a Freudian slip in your mis-spelling of "reveal" that reveals your evil. ;)

Satan would love to convince the world he doesn't exist so all the evil he does will be blamed on God. Don't allow yourself to fall into his trap.

What if you don't believe either exists?

Isn't that being atheist or agnostic?

The think with Satan that I don't get is he was an angel that rebeled against God yeah? He rebeled because he didn't like God treating humans better than agels, what with us having the whole free will thing, where the angels where built without free will as servants of God.

So how the hell did he manage to rebel with no free will?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that angels didn't have free will.

If your god loved all men, equally, it would not demand worship, nor would it condemn people for not believing in it because doing so is a contradiction.

God does not 'demand worship' as you put it. Worship is a response to who God is. An expression of love as it were. Equally God doesnt want anyone to go to hell. Why do you think he sent Jesus into the world. Jesus was how we would be saved, resqued from hell. But because we have free will God cannot force us to be saved, we have to choose.

God does not 'demand worship'

this is entirely correct,

God does not demand worship because there is no god there to demand it, AND THERE NEVER WAS :headbang:
HA HA HA HA HA

God does not 'demand worship' as you put it. Worship is a response to who God is. An expression of love as it were. Equally God doesnt want anyone to go to hell. Why do you think he sent Jesus into the world. Jesus was how we would be saved, resqued from hell. But because we have free will God cannot force us to be saved, we have to choose.
In essence he says: 'Believe in me or be eternally damned, you heretic!'
Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me. But hey, what do I care? It's all a fairy tale anyway.

God does not 'demand worship' as you put it. Worship is a response to who God is. An expression of love as it were. Equally God doesnt want anyone to go to hell. Why do you think he sent Jesus into the world. Jesus was how we would be saved, resqued from hell. But because we have free will God cannot force us to be saved, we have to choose.

You are indeed correct Adriatica II.

In essence he says: 'Believe in me or be eternally damned, you heretic!'
Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me. But hey, what do I care? It's all a fairy tale anyway.

Do you want to put that to the test?

Do you want to put that to the test?
Sure, but not for a while though. I kinda like living.

Do you want to put that to the test?

Apparently he already has.

Do you want to put that to the test?
Like you could prove him wrong?

Do you want to put that to the test?


Ohh yes please, what do you suggest?

Ohh yes please, what do you suggest?

Now if I told you that, I'd be violating my beliefs.

Now if I told you that, I'd be violating my beliefs.
Seems like a weak cop-out to me.

Now if I told you that, I'd be violating my beliefs.

You could do it indirectly. For example:

"I bet a person who commits suicide would learn the truth of God's existence rather soon Not that I condone suicide."

God does not 'demand worship' as you put it. Worship is a response to who God is. An expression of love as it were. Equally God doesnt want anyone to go to hell. Why do you think he sent Jesus into the world. Jesus was how we would be saved, resqued from hell. But because we have free will God cannot force us to be saved, we have to choose.


Adriatica II is telling you the truth and it seems that some of you have already chosen.

You could do it indirectly. For example:

"I bet a person who commits suicide would learn the truth of God's existence rather soon Not that I condone suicide."

Naw, all ya gotta do is ask yourself if creation exists, and if it does, then a creator must exist :).

Adriatica II is telling you the truth and it seems that some of you have already choosen.

Apparently and it is really sad to see that some have choosen hell over being with the Creator and His Son Jesus Christ the Savior :(

Now if I told you that, I'd be violating my beliefs.



Soooooo you can't prove it then?

Soooooo you can't prove it then?

Oh I could tell him to do lots of things but then again....proving it wasn't what I had in mind when I said "do you want to test that."

Soooooo you can't prove it then?

The only way it can be proven is for someone to die and then see what happens next. And to be honest, a corpse doesn't make for the most reliable of witnesses...

God does not 'demand worship' as you put it. Worship is a response to who God is. An expression of love as it were. Equally God doesnt want anyone to go to hell. Why do you think he sent Jesus into the world. Jesus was how we would be saved, resqued from hell. But because we have free will God cannot force us to be saved, we have to choose.

Nor does God have to require that we believe in him in order to be saved. He did, after all, "write" the Bible, and with it the laws of Christianity. I don't believe God exists -- frankly, "he" is about as plausible as the tree gnomes that don't live in my front yard.

My qualm with that kind of mindset simply is, good people who don't believe in God go to Hell, eternally. How fair is that?

Nor does God have to require that we believe in him in order to be saved. He did, after all, "write" the Bible, and with it the laws of Christianity. I don't believe God exists -- frankly, "he" is about as plausible as the tree gnomes that don't live in my front yard.

My qualm with that kind of mindset simply is, good people who don't believe in God go to Hell, eternally. How fair is that?
God works in mysterious ways or some such bullshit accounts for that.

Oh I could tell him to do lots of things but then again....proving it wasn't what I had in mind when I said "do you want to test that."

Spoke a little too high and a little too mighty just a little too soon... and now you back down. As expected.

Adriatica II is telling you the truth and it seems that some of you have already chosen.

That 'truth' cannot be proven through anything but blind 'faith'. Thus there is no way to tell whether it is the 'truth' or not. I tend to not believe in any sort of mystical, all-powerful God figure. I think when we die we just rot in the ground - a nice rest after the hectic pace of life. No more pain, no more suffering, no more emotions. Just what Winston Churchill described as "Sleep, endless, wonderful sleep - on a purple, velvety cushion."

Nor does God have to require that we believe in him in order to be saved. He did, after all, "write" the Bible, and with it the laws of Christianity. I don't believe God exists -- frankly, "he" is about as plausible as the tree gnomes that don't live in my front yard.

My qualm with that kind of mindset simply is, good people who don't believe in God go to Hell, eternally. How fair is that?

Saying that the laws of Christianity will save you is misleading.

Spoke a little too high and a little too mighty just a little too soon... and now you back down. As expected.

It was already taken out of context *shrugs*

Oh I could tell him to do lots of things but then again....proving it wasn't what I had in mind when I said "do you want to test that."


Oh realy so what was, and tell me was it what we could call a Christian thought?

what about the fact that the core values of Islam, Chritianity and Judaism are ONE AND THE SAME!!

but why do we still kill each other over it?

fundamentalism should be banned ( Jerry Falwell and Osama Bin Laden are one and the same..)

end of story

Saying that the laws of Christianity will save you is misleading.

Where and when did I say that?

I believe in God, implicitly.

I'd be lieing if i said my faith hasn't been tested. On May 12th 2006, a boy named Stephen King (coincedental name with the author obviously) was struck down by a lorry and was clinically dead dead at the scene. Pronounced dead ten minutes later in A&E.

He was only 17 years, he'd been one of my best mates all my life, we went to school together. Played footie together, laughed together. Then he's gone from my life forever. It's too cruel and such a waste of life for that to happen. That would test anyones faith.

So, when some that close to you dies at such a young age, can you seriously say there's no tomorrow for that person. Such a waste of life that is then denied another chance- even if it is an after life? I promise you, you'd never recover from that loss.

Also one question. Why do non-believers in our Lord say "Oh My God!" when something terrible happens? (an example could be the 9/11 eleven attacks, but i couls make a very large list....but i won't). That question has been bugging me for a while.

Naw, all ya gotta do is ask yourself if creation exists, and if it does, then a creator must exist :).

Hey Theorb, long time no see. :)

I think to have faith, you must have doubt. Faith doesnt exist without doubt.

Also one question. Why do non-believers in our Lord say "Oh My God!" when something terrible happens? (an example could be the 9/11 eleven attacks, but i couls make a very large list....but i won't). That question has been bugging me for a while.
It's an expression of habit. In the same way, children say swear words without equating them to sexual acts. The true meaning is in the feeling the words evoke.

In essence he says: 'Believe in me or be eternally damned, you heretic!'
Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me. But hey, what do I care? It's all a fairy tale anyway.

Its a choice because it requires you to make the decision yourself. God gave us the most perfect act of love ever. His own son's death to save us. All he asks of us is three things
1. An accpetence of sin and a sincere apology for it
2. Ask sincerely for forgiveness from God through trusting in what Jesus did on the cross
3. Do your best sincerely to live your life as God asks us too
Its a choice about how your life is ruled. By God or without God. Either way at the end you will get what you want. An everlasting life ruled by God in heaven or an everlasting death in hell without God.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

I'd recomend reading this link, it explains this point further.

Its a choice because it requires you to make the decision yourself. God gave us the most perfect act of love ever. His own son's death to save us. All he asks of us is three things
1. An accpetence of sin and a sincere apology for it
2. Ask sincerely for forgiveness from God through trusting in what Jesus did on the cross
3. Do your best sincerely to live your life as God asks us too
Its a choice about how your life is ruled. By God or without God. Either way at the end you will get what you want. An everlasting life ruled by God in heaven or an everlasting death in hell without God.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

I'd recomend reading this link, it explains this point further.
Umm... no thanks. I've been force-fed crap like that for years and I'm glad I don't have to endure it anymore. Believe me, I already know all about it.

You forget, he did create a world where we could become perfectly defined without suffering. We mucked it up so now we do suffer.
Then we weren't perfect, were we?

You seem here to misunderstand the notion of perfection. As so many often have. Let me demonstratre it to you

I am a master craftsman. I have created the perfect chisel. It is absloultely fantastic. It cuts off precisiely the ammount of stone the sculpter requires of it and does it with the minimum ammount of effort on the part of the sculpter. It is the perfect chisel. No other one could ever beat it because it is perfect in every way*

I am a master chef. I have created the perfect childs birthday cake. It combines vibrant artisticly pleasing designs with a perfectly scrumptious taste. No cake in the world could ever be better than this cake. It is the best cake ever*

* It may be that the qualities here described are not what makes the perfect chisel or cake, but thats not whats important. For the purposes of this analogy assume they are perfect.

Does the fact that the chisel would not taste very good at a party or the cake be of no use to Michaelangelo when carving David mean that either of them are any less perfect? No. It just means they cannot be what they are not.

In the same way Humans were created perfectly, but that definition of human ment they had free will which in turn meant that they could destroy the perfection via free will.
I would say it is you who do not understand analogies.

The analogy doesn't work, as humans using free will are not out of their element in any way (as the chisel is out of its element at the party). Here's one for you, though: The carpenter or sculpter makes the perfect chisel in the context of his shoppe. The baker makes the perfect cake in the context of his bakery. God's shoppe, God's bakery, is the universe itself. The perfect human, a human with free will, is created in that context, so should not be able to muck up God's works in any way.

Aha! A good precondition for hypnosis. Day-dreaming is the best state of mind to work with. Now to check, was there any sudden sound when you felt that blow?
nope.

no sound, no music, we (everyone) was singing a Hymnal.

Ya know, for a second, i got the image of that rascally band of desert wanderers killing time and trying to eat whatever they found - so Moses (supposes erroneously) picks something orange up and eats it, and weirds out a little. So some other followers wanna party with him, and he ends up lighting farts, and when one gives him a pain sensation (by being a little TOO close to "home base") his brain responds with instilling a quick authoritative hallucination.

Just a thought.
;)except he was alone at the time.

tho I think Dudley Moore was around somewhere... :D

Then we weren't perfect, were we?

I would say it is you who do not understand analogies.

The analogy doesn't work, as humans using free will are not out of their element in any way (as the chisel is out of its element at the party). Here's one for you, though: The carpenter or sculpter makes the perfect chisel in the context of his shoppe. The baker makes the perfect cake in the context of his bakery. God's shoppe, God's bakery, is the universe itself. The perfect human, a human with free will, is created in that context, so should not be able to muck up God's works in any way.

You still are not understanding. We were made so that we could muck up Gods works. The context is not the Universe but what God wanted. God wanted us to have free will because he wanted us to love. But by definition if we have free will we have the capacity to not love God and disobey him, which in turn mucks up God's world. That doesnt mean that God's world isnt perfect, it just means its fragile.

If you make the perfect vase that doesnt stop that vase from being fragile.

God is just a big joke. And it's not even funny. I only worship my girlfriend, because if I don't I won't get any magic tonight.

You still are not understanding. We were made so that we could muck up Gods works. The context is not the Universe but what God wanted. God wanted us to have free will because he wanted us to love. But by definition if we have free will we have the capacity to not love God and disobey him, which in turn mucks up God's world. That doesnt mean that God's world isnt perfect, it just means its fragile.

If you make the perfect vase that doesnt stop that vase from being fragile.Is that why he got so mad when Adam and Eve ate the apple that allowed them to become aware?

Its a choice because it requires you to make the decision yourself. God gave us the most perfect act of love ever. His own son's death to save us. All he asks of us is three things
1. An accpetence of sin and a sincere apology for it
2. Ask sincerely for forgiveness from God through trusting in what Jesus did on the cross
3. Do your best sincerely to live your life as God asks us too
Its a choice about how your life is ruled. By God or without God. Either way at the end you will get what you want. An everlasting life ruled by God in heaven or an everlasting death in hell without God.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

I'd recomend reading this link, it explains this point further.

thanks for the link Adriatica :)

You still are not understanding. We were made so that we could muck up Gods works.
Then your statement that things were perfect until we mucked it up is incorrect.

The context is not the Universe but what God wanted. God wanted us to have free will because he wanted us to love. But by definition if we have free will we have the capacity to not love God and disobey him, which in turn mucks up God's world. That doesnt mean that God's world isnt perfect, it just means its fragile.
Whew! Then nothing is mucked up. Okay; now I'm content. Everything is as it should be.

You still are not understanding. We were made so that we could muck up Gods works. The context is not the Universe but what God wanted. God wanted us to have free will because he wanted us to love. But by definition if we have free will we have the capacity to not love God and disobey him, which in turn mucks up God's world. That doesnt mean that God's world isnt perfect, it just means its fragile.

If you make the perfect vase that doesnt stop that vase from being fragile.

well said Adriatica.

God is just a big joke. And it's not even funny. I only worship my girlfriend, because if I don't I won't get any magic tonight.

If that is the case then she isn't much of a gf.

Is that why he got so mad when Adam and Eve ate the apple that allowed them to become aware?

Yes because they DISOBEYED GOD! Wouldn't you get mad if your kids disobeyed you?

JuNii, there's a fundamental difference between divine decree & manmade rules.

Divine decree is non-negotiable. human rules among free peoples, are mutually agreed upon, and people can't only change these rules, they can avoid them altogether. If I want to be covered by the DMCA, for example, I can move to the US. If an American don't, s/he can leave the US (or Australia, as it is).

Mankind is also wholly incapable of seeking vengeance to the extent your god does it. Even a lifetime of torture is utter bliss, compared to what your god would do to me, if it existed.

If you didn't pass judgement on your god, then why would you object to me doing it? .I never have objected to You trying to pass Judgement on God. I just stated that I won't. You and SC seem keen tho, on Forcing me to.
Why would you find your god fit for worship?I Just do.
Why would you claim your god is benign, or strict, or just?because to me, he is.
It makes no sense My faith doesn't have to make sense to you.


You spin the issue, as if I thought science or law was the pinnacle of human achievement. You're of course free to do so, but I fail to see how throwing mud in my general direction, alters the actions of your god.it doesn't. but if you can explain your belief in such a fluid and flawed system then you can also gain a glimps into Faith. as for spinning the issue, you and SC were doing alot of that yourselves.
- In case you're interested, by the way, I personally think the hight of human achievement is the golden rule. Perhaps it is a failing on my part, but glorifying monsters that have no regard for the humanity they claim to love, makes me doubt the sanity of the believers. Goodwin be damned, reading your posts, is like reading a neo-nazi trivialising the Holocaust. and reading your posts, you blame the POPE for Hitler's Actions. infact you and SC make it a point to blame everyone else. however, if you read back, you'll find that if you are defining the word "Accept" to mean Exscuse, my answer is given.
If that's the message of love you spread, then.. Well.. It's hard to comment & keep it civil. Not that you piss me off, but I have a feeling I might be pissing you off.tho you tried your best to rile me up, I haven't gotten angry nor irritated.

Then your statement that things were perfect until we mucked it up is incorrect.


Whew! Then nothing is mucked up. Okay; now I'm content. Everything is as it should be.

Does anyone have the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy trilogy to hand? I was trying to remember Ford Prefect's comment regarding the Garden of Eden.

Does anyone have the Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy trilogy to hand? I was trying to remember Ford Prefect's comment regarding the Garden of Eden.
"I always thought that about the Garden of Eden story," said Ford.
"Eh?"
"Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?"
"Yes, of course I do."
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of metality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."

"I always thought that about the Garden of Eden story," said Ford.
"Eh?"
"Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?"
"Yes, of course I do."
"Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise, surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of metality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."

That's the one, thanks. :p

The idea of god implies the abdication of human reason & justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty & necessarily ends in the enslavement of manking both in theory & practice.
He who desires to worship god must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty & humanity.
-- Mikhail Bakunin

Couldn't help that one.
However, before the above, he was very relogious:

Let religion become the basis and reality of your life and your actions, but let it be the pure and single-minded religion of divine reason and divine love, and not … that religion which strove to disassociate itself from everything that makes up the substance and life of truly moral existence. … Look at Christ, my dear friend; … His life was divine through and through, full of self-denial, and He did everything for mankind, finding His satisfaction and His delight in the dissolution of His material being.

… Because we have baptized in this world and are in communion with this heavenly love, we feel that we are divine creatures, that we are free, and that we have been ordained for the emancipation of humanity, which has remained a victim of the instinctive laws of unconscious existence. … Absolute freedom and absolute love—that is our aim; the freeing of humanity and the whole world–that is our purpose.

-- Mikhail Bakunin

Of course, that was before he wanted to be a dictator:

Bakunin has been criticized by anarchists and statists alike as a closet authoritarian. He is known to have sent secret letters in the hopes of creating an “invisible dictatorship

I guess it is more difficult to follow God, if you want to play God?

Likewise...."couldn't help that one".

However, before the above, he was very relogious:

Let religion become the basis and reality of your life and your actions, but let it be the pure and single-minded religion of divine reason and divine love, and not … that religion which strove to disassociate itself from everything that makes up the substance and life of truly moral existence. … Look at Christ, my dear friend; … His life was divine through and through, full of self-denial, and He did everything for mankind, finding His satisfaction and His delight in the dissolution of His material being.

… Because we have baptized in this world and are in communion with this heavenly love, we feel that we are divine creatures, that we are free, and that we have been ordained for the emancipation of humanity, which has remained a victim of the instinctive laws of unconscious existence. … Absolute freedom and absolute love—that is our aim; the freeing of humanity and the whole world–that is our purpose.

-- Mikhail Bakunin

Of course, that was before he wanted to be a dictator:

Bakunin has been criticized by anarchists and statists alike as a closet authoritarian. He is known to have sent secret letters in the hopes of creating an “invisible dictatorship

I guess it is more difficult to follow God, if you want to play God?

Likewise...."couldn't help that one".

Or perhaps he just came to his senses about God? Authoritarianism/Dictatorship doesnt necessarily mean one wants to play God.

BTW
Thanks for all your responses - it's nice to imagine I stimulated a bit of conversation!! I've enjoyed reading them even if I don't entirely agree. Thanks too to the individuals actually praising my post.... gosh.... head swelling! Not used to being listened to!!! ;-)

Kin Wicked
Your response was very well received....thanks. Of course there were those who cannot possibly understand the spiritual aspect of your post, but that is/was to be expected.

I encourage you to continue posting the good stuff!!

Your response was very well received....thanks. Of course there were those who cannot possibly understand the spiritual aspect of your post, but that is/was to be expected.

I encourage you to continue posting the good stuff!!

Wickaedia,

I agree with CanuckHeaven. It is rare when he and I agree but here we do :)

Well done Wikaedia!!! I can relate to a lot of what you have written, and you have done a masterful job of explaining certain situations that have been log jams on this thread. You obviously put a lot of thought, as well as heart and soul, into this post. Thanks!!

I agree.

I might not match beliefs on (most of) the points made, but it certainly shows thought, is well presented, and not unconvincing.

But - as an ex-Christian Implicit Atheist, I am perhaps not the target of most of the arguments made. :)

Ok, and from what I get from the bible is that God is stern, he is a disiplianrian, but he is also generous, giving and kind.
the problem is that you and SC are only concentrating on a part of what was written. not the whole.
Did he destroy whole cities? yes,
Did he spare whole cities? yes.
Did he demand sacrifice? yes,
Did he stop buring sacrifice? yes.
Did he spare races of people? yes
Has he provided for those who followed his laws? yes.
has he shown mercy? yes
Did he punnish those who did not keep his laws? yes.
Did he flood the world? well there was a flood.
Did he spare people from that flood? yes.
Did he promise to never flood the world with water? yes.
Has he kept that promise? so far, yes.
though his prohpets...
has he healed the sick? yes,
has he healed those who would percecute his and him? yes.
has he preached love and tolerance? yes.


I don't mean to be all about flippant... but, if Hitler put bandages on boo-boos, he would still have been an asshole.

So... so what if a small percentage get a good deal - if you piss THIS guy off, he kills everyone existence, except any pets he decides to spare...

I don't mean to be all about flippant... but, if Hitler put bandages on boo-boos, he would still have been an asshole.

So... so what if a small percentage get a good deal - if you piss THIS guy off, he kills everyone existence, except any pets he decides to spare...

Its called punishment. My parents were strict with me when I misbehaved but yet rewarded me when I behaved. God is no different.

Its called punishment. My parents were strict with me when I misbehaved but yet rewarded me when I behaved. God is no different.

I can't imagine your parent's strictness involved enternal torment...

I agree.

I might not match beliefs on (most of) the points made, but it certainly shows thought, is well presented, and not unconvincing.

But - as an ex-Christian Implicit Atheist, I am perhaps not the target of most of the arguments made. :)
Aye, it was marveous. Well done, Wikaedia.

I can't imagine your parent's strictness involved enternal torment...

I see you missed what I said. God punishes us when we do wrong and reward us when we do right. By ignoring God and rejecting him, you are subject to punishment. By receiving God and keeping him, you will be richly rewarded.

Its called punishment. My parents were strict with me when I misbehaved but yet rewarded me when I behaved. God is no different.

No. If it is punitive, one would have to assume there must be a capacity to learn from it. It is hard to learn from being one of the subjects of mass-genocide.

It was VENGEANCE... which I think a rather petty 'emotion' for an omnipotent being... although, it IS well supported in the text...

Strict is one thing... wiping the earth clean of everything that breathes and crawls is a little excessive as a form of 'discipline'.

I see you missed what I said. God punishes us when we do wrong and reward us when we do right. By ignoring God and rejecting him, you are subject to punishment. By receiving God and keeping him, you will be richly rewarded.
Then God is an asshole. If he's so insecure about himself he needs to blackmail people.

I see you missed what I said. God punishes us when we do wrong and reward us when we do right. By ignoring God and rejecting him, you are subject to punishment. By receiving God and keeping him, you will be richly rewarded.

So - God was 'just' in wiping out EVERY living creature? EVen those who did not know his name... and the animals that lacked even the CAPACITY for belief?

I'm not buying.

I see you missed what I said. God punishes us when we do wrong and reward us when we do right. By ignoring God and rejecting him, you are subject to punishment. By receiving God and keeping him, you will be richly rewarded.

Yes, I realize that. And maybe I'd think better of your god if he was more like a good parent, in that he could make a punishment proportional to the wrong we've done.

Then God is an asshole. If he's so insecure about himself he needs to blackmail people.

Then I guess your parents were insincere to you because they are did the samething to you. You misbehave you got punished and if you behave and did well, you got rewarded.

Unless your parents just didn't care for you.

So - God was 'just' in wiping out EVERY living creature? EVen those who did not know his name... and the animals that lacked even the CAPACITY for belief?

I'm not buying.

Obviously G_n_i, if he wiped out every living creature, we would not be here discussing this.

As to not buying it, that is why you fail to hear the truth of God's love.

Then I guess your parents were insincere to you because they are did the samething to you. You misbehave you got punished and if you behave and did well, you got rewarded.

Unless your parents just didn't care for you.

I find it unlikely, however, that Thriceaddict's parents decided that the proportional punishment was to kill him/her.... all his/her friends.... anyone who had ever met him/her... anyone who had NEVER met him/her... every animal that crawled on the earth...

You get the idea.

Yes, I realize that. And maybe I'd think better of your god if he was more like a good parent, in that he could make a punishment proportional to the wrong we've done.

Who are we to say that it wasn't?

Obviously G_n_i, if he wiped out every living creature, we would not be here discussing this.


Depends on your perspective, really.

After all - if you think that all creation myths are just conveniences for the barbarians, then it really doesn't MATTER to our current existence, what happened in the story...

Also - except for a handful he scooped up, I'd say the story paints a pretty comprehensive picture of mass genocide... people AND animals.

And, really - saving 8 people and a bucket of ducks, doesn't make the mass extermination of all other life any more palatable.


As to not buying it, that is why you fail to hear the truth of God's love.

No. Been there, done that, remember? I am 'not buying' AFTER I sampled the goods.

Wickaedia,

I agree with CanuckHeaven. It is rare when he and I agree but here we do :)
Corny, while I agree with expressing your faith in God, perhaps you could back off on the "eternal damnation" thrust of your posts? It is not necessary. All you can do is lay the spiritual tools in front of them. What they do with them is their choice.

Who are we to say that it wasn't?
Obviously, not the wronged. But if we are capable of wronging God, if we have that power over him, then he is not a god.

I see you missed what I said. God punishes us when we do wrong and reward us when we do right. By ignoring God and rejecting him, you are subject to punishment. By receiving God and keeping him, you will be richly rewarded.

I ignore and reject [the Christian] God, but I am living a happy life. I must be doing something right.

Corny, while I agree with expressing your faith in God, perhaps you could back off on the "eternal damnation" thrust of your posts? It is not necessary. All you can do is lay the spiritual tools in front of them. What they do with them is their choice.

CH, I know I should but truth be told, I cannot stop myself. I will try to tone it down though.

CH, I know I should but truth be told, I cannot stop myself. I will try to tone it down though.

Maybe you should think about moving as the spirit wills?

I find it hard to believe you sincerely believe you are being moved to bring testimony to the heathen, in the form of hellfire and damnation.

yes i belive there is a god. that god is called the flying spaghetti monster.

Anyone wanna have a theological debate cus Im a christian and Im feeling up for one.:D

Sometimes I feel like this:headbang: but there just something about church which makes me feel this:)

I met my first girl freind at church we had a realationship for 7 months which compared to everyone else is quite long.There was something that kept me from going astray and the only reason I can think of was of my Christian infulence.

I have read a lot of theological books(probably about 15) and Im only 12!!

i have asked a lot of questions and im surprised that i answered my freinds theolog questions.

Fire away with your questions cus IM READY;) ;) ;) ;)Hey sweetie, it's good we got you on as a live one. Here's the vaseline .. do with it as you wish or as is necessary. :D

yes i belive there is a god. that god is called the flying spaghetti monster.
You know, i suspect we aren't far from having the play-by-play scripture of the great coupling of FSM, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, and Lord Zoltar.
Perhaps you and i shall be apostles?

Ah ... welcome to NS Forums. *bows*

A great number of people on this forum will harshly criticise you.
It's just tough love :p

It's just tough love :p

Now this is a good line Straughn. Especially in a thread like this :D

Look how long this topic has been running. I guarantee that a topic like this has the potential to keep going for as long as this forum is up, assuming another one doesn't usurp the place of theological debate.Blame Ill Rufferto. Or me. Or both. Or perhaps even Verdigroth. Or Zoidberg.

Sometimes I think I'm the only one whose mind has been changed at all by this... I certainly hope not.Tom Lehrer had a quote that i think pertains here:

I am reminded at this point of a fellow I used to know who’s name was Henry, only to give you an idea of what an individualist he was he spelled it "Hen3ry". The 3 was silent, you see.
He said, "Life is like a sewer: what you get out of it depends on what you put into it." It’s always seems to me that this is precisely the
sort of dynamic, positive thinking that we so desperately need in these trying times of crisis and universal broo-ha-ha.

Now this is a good line Straughn. Especially in a thread like this :D
You know what, i truly believe that you and i could be considered authorities in that respect! :D
*bows*

go read the last few pages and jump right in.

I wish you luck and hope you have the patience of Job.

:DThat's pretty funny - Job lost his patience!!
And we know how well that went ... :(

You know what, i truly believe that you and i could be considered authorities in that respect! :D
*bows*

Ya know? You could be right!
*bows*

Well, because you're 12, willing to defend religion in the face of many Atheists, and we're all a bunch of bastards here.
RAmen to that. *bows*

To what end dost thou show these beliefs? To sway the hearts of the impressionable, undecided out there? They are few. You cannot change someone's mind for the better if you are there only to change their mind. If you are adversarial towards their beliefs (not that I can say you are wrong to be so) then they will deepen the moat they have built up around themselves.Forgive me for thinking that i'm intentionally minding other people's business, for i'm not, Saint Curie asked me for the things he couldn't cover himself in his absence.
As far as argument goes, it isn't necessarily the point for myself or Curie to change YOUR mind specifically - it is to call into the OPEN NATURE OF FORUM the thought processes that preclude a person from considering alternatives that might be seen by others. Of course, a person often will entrench themselves when feeling that it's a personal aspect they're defending - which is why Saint Curie has pointed out quite clearly why it's a matter of exposing such thought publicly. As much as the mentality we're talking about may chagrin us, A FORUM IS A SPECIFIC ENVIRONMENT OF RATIONAL DISCOURSE, for which the best/worst arguments of sensibility are the whole point for communication.

I have heard communists "exposing" the dangers of the reactionary capitalist mindset, I have heard liberals "exposing" the dangers of conservativism and vice versa, I have heard athiests "exposing" certain 'religious mindsets', I have heard Christians "exposing" the badness of Islam, and never has it changed anyone's mind. The people who agree, agree, and those who disagree, disagree.Consider how many people have questions of their own faith, for whom it isn't so articulate what concerns them. Perhaps this is the place where those concerns are brought out in a fashion that a person's own environment otherwise wouldn't provide the clarity.
Also, there are some whose minds aren't made up on the subject yet (surprisingly enough) and are quite aware that life truly is a long and drawn-out learning process (while many other things also) - for which this kind of commerce is absolutely delightful/intricate. Not flaming of course (not necessarily, anyway) - which is a further respect to Saint Curie's discourse here (for which i'm pretty sure you already respect him for).

Oh I get it! A sneeze! :p

*slaps forehead*
http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/gen111.gif


Now now, that was a novice run. You've still got the other two!

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11053504&postcount=4495

That is true. However, so is the reverse: Just because you voted for him doesn't mean he does.
Further qualified here:


Don't remember who said it, but it went something like:

"If God is real, all our doubt could not kill him. If God is not real, all our prayer's will not make him."

I am so certain of God's existence that if I die and He does not exist, I'll kill myself.
I knew it. I KNEW IT! :D
I'm liking you more all the time. *bows*

If your god loved all men, equally, it would not demand worship, nor would it condemn people for not believing in it because doing so is a contradiction.
EXCELLENT post. *bows*


21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
Although slaves WERE ALSO CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD, god says it's okay to beat them to death for their existence is equivocal to $. Loving all men equally?
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Hmmm.
I wonder if this is enough or not. I'll let it go for now.

Actually he doesn't care whether you believe he exists or not. If you're not into Porn or Chocolate or Interstellar Travel or Lunatic Goofballs then you get to hang around, but you won't get the goodies. :cool:
What if you believe, however, in the ZOMBIE Lunatic "Flesh Skep" Goofballs?

The most noble act in history.
What did JuNii just say about it not being your place to judge god? :p

I did not come here to argue.
Man: I came here for a good argument!
Mr. Vibrating: No you didn't, no, you came here for an argument!
Man: An argument isn't just contradiction.
Mr. Vibrating: CAN be!
Man: No it can't! An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Mr. Vibrating: No it isn't!
Man: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
Mr. Vibrating: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position!
Man: Yes but that's not just saying "no it isn't".
Mr. Vibrating: Yes it is!
Man: No it isn't!
*echo*
Now it is up to each of you to choose for yourself.Oh thanks for your eminent benevolence :rolleyes:
I already made the choice. You're a few SOULS behind.

I'm Agnostic, leaning towards Athiest. I think God is the Devil.
As much as man is made in "his" image, i suspect. *nods solemnly*

I will pray that the Lord will reveil himself to you.
:eek:
*gasp*
Put your pants back on! Pull that trenchcoat closed! Get outta this church! Have you NO decency? :mad:

Oh thanks for your eminent benevolence :rolleyes:
I already made the choice. You're a few SOULS behind.
So...you won't be joining into the sing along of "Jesus Loves Me"?

So...you won't be joining into the sing along of "Jesus Loves Me"?
I do more of a "floating time signature/jazz/scat" version of that particular #. :)
The lyrics kinda show up as and where they are to suit me.

Then your statement that things were perfect until we mucked it up is incorrect.

No it isnt. Your still not getting this. God made the world perfect and we were in a perfect relationship with him. We spoilt that relationship by disobeying


Whew! Then nothing is mucked up. Okay; now I'm content. Everything is as it should be.

No, it is mucked up. The perfection is in our ability to sin, not sinning itself.

Seems like a weak cop-out to me.
Aforementioned "Corneliu Maneuver".

The perfection is in our ability to sin, not sinning itself.
This is, of course, the keeper of your argument. :thumbsup:
Keep up the good work!

EXCELLENT post. *bows*


Straughn, I already dealt with that post. See back a few pages, I'll edit in a minute to find the specific post number.

You could do it indirectly. For example:

"I bet a person who commits suicide would learn the truth of God's existence rather soon Not that I condone suicide."
That INDEED would already have been brought up by me to Corneliu earlier.

Straughn, I already dealt with that post. See back a few pages, I'll edit in a minute to find the specific post number.
Don't bother. You dealt me all low cards and you'll need a flush. You're too backed up as it is!
:D

EDIT: For example ...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11055012&postcount=4578
(forgive me if i post out of spirit)

The only way it can be proven is for someone to die and then see what happens next. And to be honest, a corpse doesn't make for the most reliable of witnesses...
They make EXCELLENT porn "stand"-ins though!
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/1370.gif

except he was alone at the time.Nah, all of our indebted souls were floating around there too, goading him since he didn't leave us to our misery in the Hall of Guf. ;)
Just like when he supposedly garnered the "ten Commandments" ... no one actually saw that happen either.
tho I think Dudley Moore was around somewhere... :DPerhaps - rollicking around for another bourbon! WooT!

Yes because they DISOBEYED GOD! Wouldn't you get mad if your kids disobeyed you?
The difference is, KIDS GROW UP.
And in the slavery that is involved in this particular deity's worship, WE DON'T EVER GET TO!

I don't mean to be all about flippant... but, if Hitler put bandages on boo-boos, he would still have been an asshole.
Of course, this means i'm siglisting this too, you know. :)

I know I should but truth be told, I cannot stop myself.
This is EXACTLY what Saint Curie is talking about.

There is no natural law. That is a myth designed to keep people subservient to an invisible power that in reality does not exist. The idea of a natural order was designed to prevent people fom managing thier own destiny.It forces them to think that thier lives are ordained by some omnipotent force that knows the past, present and future.

Now i'm not knocking anyones faith, but I personally dont belive in the existence of any form of god.


god doesnt promise a life without pain. he doesnt say that if you believe in him and follow his commandments he'll make all your troubles go away.

So what does he say, then?

P.S. The quote at the beginning comes from Sonia Levitin's "The Goodness Gene".

Rejecting/Attacking God based on the nutty ideas of fundamentalist Christians is a classic "straw man" attack.

For example: The story of Noah and the Flood is absurd, therefore God cannot exist.

Truth be told, the story of Noah is irrelevant. God does not rely on the exuberance of biblical storytellers to manifest Himself (or Herself).

While it's amusing to watch rational people chew on Corneliu's flame bait, it distracts from simpler, more fundamental questions:

1. Can existence, in its present form, be considered miraculous?
2. Do living beings (especially humans) answer to a "higher purpose"?
3. If the human body is only a machine composed of matter and energy, can one assume there is an "operator" or "driver"? (this is more a question regarding the presence of a "soul", rather than "god" specifically).
4. Must the existence of God be "proven"? Must belief in God rely on "faith"?

Rejecting/Attacking God based on the nutty ideas of fundamentalist Christians is a classic "straw man" attack.

For example: The story of Noah and the Flood is absurd, therefore God cannot exist.

Truth be told, the story of Noah is irrelevant. God does not rely on the exuberance of biblical storytellers to manifest Himself (or Herself).

While it's amusing to watch rational people chew on Corneliu's flame bait, it distracts from simpler, more fundamental questions:

1. Can existence, in its present form, be considered miraculous?
2. Do living beings (especially humans) answer to a "higher purpose"?
3. If the human body is only a machine composed of matter and energy, can one assume there is an "operator" or "driver"? (this is more a question regarding the presence of a "soul", rather than "god" specifically).
4. Must the existence of God be "proven"? Must belief in God rely on "faith"?
you have good questions, but there are some flaws in them. For example, Life can be considered miraculous. But a miracle doesn't require a god. Similar logic follows for question 2. We might have a higher purpose, but that doesn't require a god to dictate it. For question three, I would mention the mind as being the "driver", the body as the tool. I don't particularly believe in a "soul" in the classic sense...but I think most everyone can agree on a similar defn. of the mind.
4. The existence of God, god, Gods, Goddess, etc...none of these can be proven or disproven. As such, yes, they require faith. Even if I were to assume that God does exist, I cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that proves God. I also cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that disproves God. As such, faith is needed.

Nor does God have to require that we believe in him in order to be saved. He did, after all, "write" the Bible, and with it the laws of Christianity. I don't believe God exists -- frankly, "he" is about as plausible as the tree gnomes that don't live in my front yard.

My qualm with that kind of mindset simply is, good people who don't believe in God go to Hell, eternally. How fair is that?

Its quite simple in its fairness. Salvation is a gift, not a wage

You cannot be "good" enough for heaven. The only way to be good enough for heaven is to be perfect, and no one is perfect.

God knows this so he sent Jesus to make it possible for us to reach heaven through his death, the greatest act of love this universe has ever known.

Through his death, all our sin is taken on him as he had no sin of his own.

But a miracle doesn't require a god

Define miracle, then.

Define miracle, then.


Ask Willamena or myself, if it matters.
Unfortunately, i have bills to deliver and won't be back for a little while :(

Through his death, all our sin is taken on him as he had no sin of his own.
Other than heresy and cursing a fig tree, of course.
;)

you have good questions, but there are some flaws in them. For example, Life can be considered miraculous. But a miracle doesn't require a god. Similar logic follows for question 2. We might have a higher purpose, but that doesn't require a god to dictate it. For question three, I would mention the mind as being the "driver", the body as the tool. I don't particularly believe in a "soul" in the classic sense...but I think most everyone can agree on a similar defn. of the mind.
4. The existence of God, god, Gods, Goddess, etc...none of these can be proven or disproven. As such, yes, they require faith. Even if I were to assume that God does exist, I cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that proves God. I also cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that disproves God. As such, faith is needed.
Excellent, mon amis.

Define miracle, then.



I define it close to "awesome" or " wonderful" in the original definitions (inspiring awe or wonder). That doesn't need god.

And please, stop with the colors and fonts. There's no need.

Excellent, mon amis.
to take a page from your book, *bows*

Its quite simple in its fairness. Salvation is a gift, not a wage




So basically we're born, then throughout our whole lives we're forced to believe in him(or her) or we'll be eternally punished? We should be lucky to recieve some 'reward' just because we believed in something? I think, though i'm athiest, that if heaven does exist we should be entitled to its rewards. We didn't ask to be born so what we do after we're born should have nothing to do with any form of 'god' whatsoever.

to take a page from your book, *bows*
You might want to wash your hands then!
Remember what Scarlet said about butterscotch!! :eek:

Its quite simple in its fairness. Salvation is a gift, not a wage

You cannot be "good" enough for heaven. The only way to be good enough for heaven is to be perfect, and no one is perfect.

God knows this so he sent Jesus to make it possible for us to reach heaven through his death, the greatest act of love this universe has ever known.

Through his death, all our sin is taken on him as he had no sin of his own.

Yet, if I don't believe in God or Heaven, I get cast into Hell. Why? How is that fair? I don't believe in something I haven't seen, smelt, touched, felt. I don't believe in something that has no empirical evidence behind, and for that I get sent to Hell.

Is that fair?

Yet, if I don't believe in God or Heaven, I get cast into Hell. Why? How is that fair? I don't believe in something I haven't seen, smelt, touched, felt. I don't believe in something that has no empirical evidence behind, and for that I get sent to Hell.

Is that fair?

Like i said before, noone should be punished for disbelief and/or questioned belief in a 'god'

Like i said before, noone should be punished for disbelief and/or questioned belief in a 'god'

No, no one should. My point was hypothetical, I don't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell... so I'm not worried about it.

Rejecting/Attacking God based on the nutty ideas of fundamentalist Christians is a classic "straw man" attack.




Good point. I dont think anyone should eliminate the posibility of the existence of a 'god' just because they think the ideas of one religion are completely stupid.

you have good questions, but there are some flaws in them. For example, Life can be considered miraculous. But a miracle doesn't require a god. Similar logic follows for question 2. We might have a higher purpose, but that doesn't require a god to dictate it.

This is a question of semantics. What would you prefer to call it, if not "God"?


For question three, I would mention the mind as being the "driver", the body as the tool. I don't particularly believe in a "soul" in the classic sense...but I think most everyone can agree on a similar defn. of the mind.

Do you believe that the "mind" has an existence independent of the chemical processes of the brain? If so, then, again, I believe your disagreement is one of semantics rather than belief. I like calling it "soul."


4. The existence of God, god, Gods, Goddess, etc...none of these can be proven or disproven. As such, yes, they require faith. Even if I were to assume that God does exist, I cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that proves God. I also cannot produce a shred of empirical evidence that disproves God. As such, faith is needed.


Hard for me to disagree. The question then becomes whether or not "faith in God" is a desirable trait, if one wishes to live a happy life.

I, for one, believe in God. Why? Because when I witness creation, I feel it is only common courtesy to acknowledge the existence of a Creator. This belief engenders a respect and reverence for life and existence, that I believe is beneficial to myself and everyone around me.

Can I live a life of honesty, respect, and reverence, yet still deny the existence of God? Of course I can, but what would I possibly gain from withholding that last step?

I, for one, am grateful to have this particular Universe to live in. In my short and limited existence, I can only imagine how much work went into the creation of it all. Who can I thank for that, if not God?

I, for one, am glad that the Universe hasn't yet spun off into an incomprehensible swirl of chaos. Who can I thank for that, if not God?

No, no one should. My point was hypothetical, I don't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell... so I'm not worried about it.

You dont believe in these things, right? What if they turned out to be existent, what then?

Yet, if I don't believe in God or Heaven, I get cast into Hell. Why? How is that fair? I don't believe in something I haven't seen, smelt, touched, felt. I don't believe in something that has no empirical evidence behind, and for that I get sent to Hell.

Is that fair?

There are many things in this world that you may not see or smell or touch but you still believe it exists. Have you been to Svalbard? Asscenion Island? St Helens? I'm sure there are many places you may not have gone but you believe exist because a map tells you about them.

In the same way God tells you about heaven in the Bible. He has given us evidence and proof. You can go to Svalbard and you can go to heaven. Just follow the directions in the Bible or the map.

Hell you have to remember, wasnt originally created for humans. It was created for Satan. Humans only go there because of sin. God doesnt want any of us to go there which is why Jesus came and took away our sin. All we have to do to be saved is do three things
1. Sincerely apologise to God for our sins
2. Sincerely ask for God's mercy and forgiveness through what he did by Jesus's death
3. Sincerely make an effort to live your life as God would want it. You wont be perfect, but try.

Other than heresy and cursing a fig tree, of course.
;)

What heresy?

And since God created the tree, he is entitled to destory it.

Rejecting/Attacking God based on the nutty ideas of fundamentalist Christians is a classic "straw man" attack.

For example: The story of Noah and the Flood is absurd, therefore God cannot exist.

Truth be told, the story of Noah is irrelevant. God does not rely on the exuberance of biblical storytellers to manifest Himself (or Herself).

Actually it's not that absurd. Mankind's oldest memories are shown in it's earliest myths, which are themselves the oral traditions that have been passed down since time immemorial. If you consider the period of mankind's real emergence into the world (the Ice Age), stories of massive floods, disappearing land, etc, all make sense. Over time these memories would very likely turn into what they later become, fragmented myths about some terrible catastrophes that occured in a distant past when nearly all humanity was destroyed, but narrowly escaped. It's not really that crazy.


1. Can existence, in its present form, be considered miraculous?

It can be, but it doesn't need to be. Nothing is particularly miraculous when you look at it with any intensity. If we were perfect beings, with anatomies that made perfect sense, and that didn't have a bevy of flaws, I'd say that's miraculous. As it is, there are interesting and exceptional things throughout the world, but ultimately there is a hell of a lot more luck and randomness. We don't need to get into the scientific aspects of this (i.e. recreating amino acids in precambrian-like environments), but suffice it to say, nothing in this world exists that couldn't exist through luck.

2. Do living beings (especially humans) answer to a "higher purpose"?

They could...but they probably don't. If you say they do, then what? Salvation in the next life? Preservation of the species? If anything, it's the second, and more likely than not, it's neither. If we have any "higher purpose", it's an a priori purpose, and we are not capable of discovering it.


3. If the human body is only a machine composed of matter and energy, can one assume there is an "operator" or "driver"? (this is more a question regarding the presence of a "soul", rather than "god" specifically).

No, one need not assume any such thing. If you study consciousness closely, the only thing you can't really define is where sentience comes into play. I don't think anyone would want to call sentience a "soul". As it is, much of what we do is based on chemical reactions in the brain, and sentience may very well be a byproduct of those reactions, we just don't know yet. Most of human processes can be shown to operate through chemical or electrical processes, i.e. elemental processes, not something immaterial.


4. Must the existence of God be "proven"? Must belief in God rely on "faith"?
That depends. If one is trying to convince someone that God exists, they must present material proof. If one is merely trying to belief in God, then they can rely on faith. However, one cannot try and convince others on the existence of God merely through faith.

There are many things in this world that you may not see or smell or touch but you still believe it exists. Have you been to Svalbard? Asscenion Island? St Helens? I'm sure there are many places you may not have gone but you believe exist because a map tells you about them.
I can buy a ticket to those places. I cannot buy a ticket to Heaven or Hell. The places you list exist on a material world, in the world we live in. The things he speaks of may or may not exist in an ethereal and immaterial world.


In the same way God tells you about heaven in the Bible. He has given us evidence and proof. You can go to Svalbard and you can go to heaven. Just follow the directions in the Bible or the map.

Actually, God doesn't talk about Heaven in the Old Testament to any extent. Nor Hell. Those only show up in the New Testament.Furthermore, here's another major break in your analogy. If I get a map, any map, they should lead me to where I want to go or else I'll know the map is wrong, and I'll get a new one. There is a definitive way to get where I want to go. That doesn't work with "Heaven". Which way is the right way? The Catholic way? The Protestant way? The Jewish way? The Hindu way? The Sikh way? The Way way (sorry, couldn't resist)? The Olympian way? All those maps disagree heavily, how can you possibly be able to assert that any is more right than the others?


Hell you have to remember, wasnt originally created for humans. It was created for Satan. Humans only go there because of sin. God doesnt want any of us to go there which is why Jesus came and took away our sin. All we have to do to be saved is do three things
1. Sincerely apologise to God for our sins
2. Sincerely ask for God's mercy and forgiveness through what he did by Jesus's death
3. Sincerely make an effort to live your life as God would want it. You wont be perfect, but try.
You see, I don't see Jesus ever preaching about how God made Hell for Satan. In fact, I don't really see Jesus mention that at all. The only places I here this stuff being mentioned is by various apostles, saints, and other figures who have no right to claim any kind of infallibility, nor divine messenges. What if I believe in the Gospel of Judas, and think that Judas was actually following Jesus' bidding when he went to the Romans and "betrayed" Jesus? Furthermore, as I've already pointed out how many imperfect writers have told us what God wants us to do, how can I possibly know which is correct? What if the Aztecs were correct and I need to sacrifice to the Sun God regularly if I want to be saved? How can I possibly know how God wants me to live when he sends constantly contradictory messages?

You're way isn't necessarily the right way. There are far too many "right ways" for that idea to possibly work.

I'm sorry that you lost a good friend

However, have you guys ever thought that death is a good thing?
Yes, death is tragic to us. At least to those of us who cared about her and to those of us who are still alive.

But to her, death might have been the best thing. If she was really a great person, then she was called to the Heaven by God and who knows...she could be in Heaven enjoying her well-earned immortality.

I, in a way, believe that death is quite a happy thing because it marks the end for that person. It marks the end of all the bad things that have and will happen to him. No more tragedy will he/she have to suffer.
When someone says "It wasn't her/his time" Really... who are we to say that? God gave us a life and it is his decision to take it away right?

Edit:
Have you guys ever thought that religion might not really matter?
That each religion's Gods might be one same God in different forms?

The difference is, KIDS GROW UP.
And in the slavery that is involved in this particular deity's worship, WE DON'T EVER GET TO!

We actually grow in the Spirit of the Lord. We do grow up. We grow up with the Spirit of the Lord.

We actually grow in the Spirit of the Lord. We do grow up. We grow up with the Spirit of the Lord.
Yet we're always treated like kids.

This is EXACTLY what Saint Curie is talking about.

Nice of you to hack off the last sentence.

This is a question of semantics. What would you prefer to call it, if not "God"?Something doesn't have to involve God or anything like that to inspire awe. Aurora Borealis inspired awe, yet doesn't have a godly intervention


Do you believe that the "mind" has an existence independent of the chemical processes of the brain? If so, then, again, I believe your disagreement is one of semantics rather than belief. I like calling it "soul."not particularly. The mind is supernatural, as it isn't a physical. However, the concept of a mind is different from that of a soul. Soul is inantely spiritual. The mind is a product of the brain and conscious thought.



Hard for me to disagree. The question then becomes whether or not "faith in God" is a desirable trait, if one wishes to live a happy life.

I, for one, believe in God. Why? Because when I witness creation, I feel it is only common courtesy to acknowledge the existence of a Creator. This belief engenders a respect and reverence for life and existence, that I believe is beneficial to myself and everyone around me.I can't argue against you here, but be wary of using the phrase "creation"...it can open a can of worms...

Can I live a life of honesty, respect, and reverence, yet still deny the existence of God? Of course I can, but what would I possibly gain from withholding that last step?A good life? I don't need to worry about a cosmic finger wag just to make me behave. I want to be a good person for me. I have nothing to gain, nothing to lose as far as an afterlife goes, but I do have alot to gain and lose in THIS life, here and now. Why should I care about what happens when I'm dead, when that time could be spent being a good person today?

I, for one, am grateful to have this particular Universe to live in. In my short and limited existence, I can only imagine how much work went into the creation of it all. Who can I thank for that, if not God?I'm grateful for it as well, but I don't see a need to say "I can't find an explination for this, so I will create one". If I have to thank something, it will be nature and its processes

I, for one, am glad that the Universe hasn't yet spun off into an incomprehensible swirl of chaos. Who can I thank for that, if not God?for what reason would it swirl into chaos just because there is no god?

Of course, this means i'm siglisting this too, you know. :)

*bows*

I'm sorry that you lost a good friend

However, have you guys ever thought that death is a good thing?
Yes, death is tragic to us. At least to those of us who cared about her and to those of us who are still alive.

But to her, death might have been the best thing. If she was really a great person, then she was called to the Heaven by God and who knows...she could be in Heaven enjoying her well-earned immortality.

I, in a way, believe that death is quite a happy thing because it marks the end for that person. It marks the end of all the bad things that have and will happen to him. No more tragedy will he/she have to suffer.
When someone says "It wasn't her/his time" Really... who are we to say that? God gave us a life and it is his decision to take it away right?

Edit:
Have you guys ever thought that religion might not really matter?
That each religion's Gods might be one same God in different forms?

This is like someone giving a billion dollars to charity and then a few decades later saying "Hmm... actually, I need that money back. Fork it over. Sorry." Just because you create something doesn't give you the right to take it away.

Its quite simple in its fairness. Salvation is a gift, not a wage

You cannot be "good" enough for heaven. The only way to be good enough for heaven is to be perfect, and no one is perfect.

God knows this so he sent Jesus to make it possible for us to reach heaven through his death, the greatest act of love this universe has ever known.

Through his death, all our sin is taken on him as he had no sin of his own.

Well said Adriatica.

Yet, if I don't believe in God or Heaven, I get cast into Hell. Why? How is that fair? I don't believe in something I haven't seen, smelt, touched, felt. I don't believe in something that has no empirical evidence behind, and for that I get sent to Hell.

Is that fair?

Yes it is fair because you rejected God's Love. By doing so, you will get punished.

Its quite simple in its fairness. Salvation is a gift, not a wage

You cannot be "good" enough for heaven. The only way to be good enough for heaven is to be perfect, and no one is perfect.

God knows this so he sent Jesus to make it possible for us to reach heaven through his death, the greatest act of love this universe has ever known.

Through his death, all our sin is taken on him as he had no sin of his own.

So - you create an entity that can malfunction...

You then create an eternal and extreme punishment to apply if the unit DOES malfunction...

Then, after a few thousand years... you create a mechanism by which SOME of the malfunctioning units (that you built broken) DON'T get mercilessly tortured eternally...

And this is supposed to be somehow benevolent?

That's the kind of logic that says I should get my friends to kick me in the nuts, because it will be soooo good when they stop...

No, no one should. My point was hypothetical, I don't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell... so I'm not worried about it.

(altered slightly)You should be. You should be

Actually it's not that absurd. Mankind's oldest memories are shown in it's earliest myths, which are themselves the oral traditions that have been passed down since time immemorial. If you consider the period of mankind's real emergence into the world (the Ice Age), stories of massive floods, disappearing land, etc, all make sense. Over time these memories would very likely turn into what they later become, fragmented myths about some terrible catastrophes that occured in a distant past when nearly all humanity was destroyed, but narrowly escaped. It's not really that crazy.


Yes, and plenty of other creation myths represent a great flood as well. What's crazy is to attribute the flood to a wrathful God that's punishing mankind for its "wickedness."


It can be, but it doesn't need to be. Nothing is particularly miraculous when you look at it with any intensity. If we were perfect beings, with anatomies that made perfect sense, and that didn't have a bevy of flaws, I'd say that's miraculous. As it is, there are interesting and exceptional things throughout the world, but ultimately there is a hell of a lot more luck and randomness. We don't need to get into the scientific aspects of this (i.e. recreating amino acids in precambrian-like environments), but suffice it to say, nothing in this world exists that couldn't exist through luck.

They could...but they probably don't. If you say they do, then what? Salvation in the next life? Preservation of the species? If anything, it's the second, and more likely than not, it's neither. If we have any "higher purpose", it's an a priori purpose, and we are not capable of discovering it.


I don't see how "a priori purpose" = "we are not capable of discovering it".

I'm not here to deny the validity of evolution. The question still exists, how does a random ball of hydrogen "decide" to evolve into higher life forms? While I do not discount "luck," it is hard to imagine "luck" having enough initiative to develop the purpose necessary to evolve from that ball of hydrogen to what we have today.


No, one need not assume any such thing. If you study consciousness closely, the only thing you can't really define is where sentience comes into play. I don't think anyone would want to call sentience a "soul". As it is, much of what we do is based on chemical reactions in the brain, and sentience may very well be a byproduct of those reactions, we just don't know yet. Most of human processes can be shown to operate through chemical or electrical processes, i.e. elemental processes, not something immaterial.


I must be an unusual case then: I believe that "sentience" and "soul" are one and the same.

Since I'm only living one life presently, I can speak experientially, but not statistically. I have and do experience free will. I'm writing this post because I choose to, not because some chemical process in my brain forces me to.

This I cannot prove, just as you cannot disprove it. It is only an assertion. But it is through just such assertions that I define who I am as an individual. Are you responsible for your actions? Are you capable of choice? Are you possessing of free will? How you would answer such questions reveals much about how you live your life.


That depends. If one is trying to convince someone that God exists, they must present material proof.


The empirical-model world view tends to concentrate on effects, rather than causes. This is why the scientific method has so much trouble addressing God. God is, by definition, a cause, and not an effect. Even the Big Bang theory stops before it reaches God, because without a measurable effect, there can be nothing to observe, nothing to experiment upon, and therefore, nothing to prove.


If one is merely trying to belief in God, then they can rely on faith. However, one cannot try and convince others on the existence of God merely through faith.

One certainly can. It is precisely what I am doing.

Yes it is fair because you rejected God's Love. By doing so, you will get punished.

Oh, when and how did I reject it?

You dont believe in these things, right? What if they turned out to be existent, what then?

What if you believe in 'Heaven', 'Hell' and 'God'... but it turns out that the Norse gods are the real ones?

I can buy a ticket to those places. I cannot buy a ticket to Heaven or Hell. The places you list exist on a material world, in the world we live in. The things he speaks of may or may not exist in an ethereal and immaterial world.

Actually you can buy a ticket to heaven or hell. It is based on wether or not you accept the Savior Jesus Christ.

Yet we're always treated like kids.

We are God's Children

Actually you can buy a ticket to heaven or hell. It is based on wether or not you accept the Savior Jesus Christ.

According to your interpretation.

I wonder... what about an aborted foetus...?

Oh, when and how did I reject it?

By not accepting Jesus into your heart and keeping him there. By not admitting that you are sinner.

One certainly can. It is precisely what I am doing.

And... convincing no one. *cough*

I believe in water.

By not accepting Jesus into your heart and keeping him there. By not admitting that you are sinner.

When did Jesus/God ever prove to me that they exist? When did they ever prove to me that they were real, while the other characters in the thousands of past and present religions are false?

I believe in water.

Your signature rocks.

When did Jesus/God ever prove to me that they exist? When did they ever prove to me that they were real, while the other characters in the thousands of past and present religions are false?

Why do you require proof when the evidence of his love is all around you? Do you not have eyes to see all of this? Do you not have ears to hear the wonderful good news of the Lord?

What is so hard about admitting that you are a sinner and accept his Son into your heart and to follow Christ's example?

Why do you require proof when the evidence of his love is all around you? Do you not have eyes to see all of this? Do you not have ears to hear the wonderful good news of the Lord?

I say it's Athena's love.

Answer: Yes

Something doesn't have to involve God or anything like that to inspire awe. Aurora Borealis inspired awe, yet doesn't have a godly intervention


I prefer to think of it as "invention" instead of "intervention." And what exactly about it inspires awe in you? How would you describe that feeling of awe? To what would you ascribe those feelings of awe?

Yes, the physical universe has laws, and physical manifestations obey those laws. But even the physical universe allows a bit of wiggle room (consider the "Uncertainty Principle" of quantum physics).

It is my belief that the entire universe was shaped out of that little bit of wiggle room. Bit by bit, piece by piece, minute by minute.

The miraculous and supernatural events described in the Bible, of course, are a different story. But as stories, I believe we have much to learn from them, if we choose to.


not particularly. The mind is supernatural, as it isn't a physical. However, the concept of a mind is different from that of a soul. Soul is inantely spiritual. The mind is a product of the brain and conscious thought.


Fair enough. I can stop using the word "soul" in this context if it makes you uncomfortable. Other than word choice, we seem to agree on this point: that "the mind" relies on something above and beyond the purely physical aspect of the brain.


I can't argue against you here, but be wary of using the phrase "creation"...it can open a can of worms...

A good life? I don't need to worry about a cosmic finger wag just to make me behave.


Good. Many people do. However, I don't believe the "cosmic finger wag" has anything to do with God. That is purely the invention of humans.


I want to be a good person for me. I have nothing to gain, nothing to lose as far as an afterlife goes, but I do have alot to gain and lose in THIS life, here and now. Why should I care about what happens when I'm dead, when that time could be spent being a good person today?

I'm grateful for it as well, but I don't see a need to say "I can't find an explination for this, so I will create one". If I have to thank something, it will be nature and its processes


It seems that we generally believe the same things. I like using the word "God," because it is short, simple, and to the point. I could give a damn that other people have usurped the word to imply a whole host of unrelated, irrelevant, and unworkable ideas.

Let's reclaim the word "God," and apply it to something more rational, like it deserves.

Yes there is a
God you idiots

another thing you morons god is a man and jesus was white

And... convincing no one. *cough*
Speak for yourself. Let others speak for themselves.

another thing you morons god is a man and jesus was white

Jesus had OLIVE SKIN!

they can speak for themselves i dont care they just need to see the truth

Jesus had OLIVE SKIN!
thank u man at least someone believes

thank u man at least someone believes

And this from a person who said he had white skin?

Why do you require proof when the evidence of his love is all around you?

...because I don't see this "evidence" you speak of.

Do you not have eyes to see all of this?

A Universe spawned by a singularity explosion, life spawned through evolution?

Do you not have ears to hear the wonderful good news of the Lord?

What wonderful good news? I don't believe in God or any deity, it just isn't something that seems plausible to me, and there's no empirical evidence supporting "he," "she," or "it."

Even if I was a believer, I'd have a hard time saying that casting non-believers to Hell is a just move. That's like Joseph Stalin jailing his political opponents.

What is so hard about admitting that you are a sinner and accept his Son into your heart and to follow Christ's example?

Because I don't believe that I have sinned. You seem to think that, deep down inside, I know I'm a sinner, and that I believe in God. It's like Mac zealots who think that all Windows users secretly want a Mac.

Reality check: I don't. I don't believe in God, I think that most religions (Mormonism and certain sects of Christianity in particular) are clever, cheap and underhanded in swaying folk to their side.

Now, what's so hard about understanding that some people require a little more than the words in a 2,000-year old book to shape their entire worldview? What's so hard about understanding that some people demand empirical evidence to support their beliefs?

whatever man i have had to much happen to me to not believe in god

whatever man i have had to much happen to me to not believe in god

And I have as well.

why is it so hard to believe

why is it so hard to believe

Same reason Santa is? That's a good place to start.

leave santa out of this

leave santa out of this

Why? Too much coal for you?

funny i guess more coal to fuel the enternal damnation your gonna be put it

funny i guess more coal to fuel the enturnal damnation your gonna be put it

The fires need fuel? So it's not eternal...Eventually they run out of natural resources to burn, then we go to heaven...

...because I don't see this "evidence" you speak of.
The only "evidence" is existence itself. While I consider it fruitless to argue for the existence of God to you, I have another question: do you find any inherent "goodness" in existence?

nope you'll still be there

nope you'll still be there

Well, at least they'll have shut the boiler off...not sure how we'll roast weenies though...Or chestnuts...

The only "evidence" is existence itself. While I consider it fruitless to argue for the existence of God to you, I have another question: do you find any inherent "goodness" in existence?

Not really. We certaintly can't be objective judges of the quality of existence, we're heavily biased by existing.

Not really. We certaintly can't be objective judges of the quality of existence, we're heavily biased by existing.

But yet...all that we were given has been given by God for us.

But yet...all that we were given has been given by God for us.

You assume we've been given something.

You assume we've been given something.

We have.

yes

Why do you require proof when the evidence of his love is all around you? Do you not have eyes to see all of this? Do you not have ears to hear the wonderful good news of the Lord?

What is so hard about admitting that you are a sinner and accept his Son into your heart and to follow Christ's example?

The fact that it is not true?

At least - not true to me... certainly without any evidence.

What is so hard about you admitting that Satan is your lord and master, and that you shall serve him and all his little demons and wizards, gladly, for all eternity?

Not really. We certaintly can't be objective judges of the quality of existence, we're heavily biased by existing.

Why must we be objective? I'm asking subjectively: is your existence "good"?

Same reason Santa is? That's a good place to start.

Bow Down! Bow Down!

Before the Power of Santa!

Be Crushed! Be Crushed...

BY His Jolly Boots of Doom.

But yet...all that we were given has been given by God for us.

Just... maybe not by YOUR 'god'...?

So - you create an entity that can malfunction...

You then create an eternal and extreme punishment to apply if the unit DOES malfunction...

Then, after a few thousand years... you create a mechanism by which SOME of the malfunctioning units (that you built broken) DON'T get mercilessly tortured eternally...

And this is supposed to be somehow benevolent?

That's the kind of logic that says I should get my friends to kick me in the nuts, because it will be soooo good when they stop...

Grave, you do this all the time. You intentionally misunderstand to make it sound bad

God created us with free will for one reason, to enable us to love. Love is impossible without free will. We chose with our free will not to love God, and disobeyed him.

God has to be just to that and so he does punish it. He can't just ignore it, it needs to be fixed. So he does punish, punishes himself. He dies so that we could live eternally.

But again he leaves us with a choice. It is up to us to either choose to be with him or not.

The fact that it is not true?

At least - not true to me... certainly without any evidence.

This is why you are not hearing the evidence nor seeing the evidence because you already have it in your mind that it is untrue. When you believe, then it will become clear to you.

I can buy a ticket to those places. I cannot buy a ticket to Heaven or Hell. The places you list exist on a material world, in the world we live in. The things he speaks of may or may not exist in an ethereal and immaterial world.


Actually, God doesn't talk about Heaven in the Old Testament to any extent. Nor Hell. Those only show up in the New Testament.Furthermore, here's another major break in your analogy. If I get a map, any map, they should lead me to where I want to go or else I'll know the map is wrong, and I'll get a new one. There is a definitive way to get where I want to go. That doesn't work with "Heaven". Which way is the right way? The Catholic way? The Protestant way? The Jewish way? The Hindu way? The Sikh way? The Way way (sorry, couldn't resist)? The Olympian way? All those maps disagree heavily, how can you possibly be able to assert that any is more right than the others?

If you want to assert comparitve religion, I recomend Ravi Zacahrias's book "Jesus amoung other Gods" and you will see how it is that Jesus is superior. As it is I could not hope to amalagamate all his work into one post.


You see, I don't see Jesus ever preaching about how God made Hell for Satan. In fact, I don't really see Jesus mention that at all.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matthew 25:41)

Your wrong

The only "evidence" is existence itself. While I consider it fruitless to argue for the existence of God to you, I have another question: do you find any inherent "goodness" in existence?

Existence itself is not evidence of a God. The "intelligent design" argument is an un-ending loop that relies on clever metaphors to "prove" itself.

And no, I find no inherent "goodness" in existence, we simply exist, and that's that.

Existence itself is not evidence of a God. The "intelligent design" argument is an un-ending loop that relies on clever metaphors to "prove" itself.

And no, I find no inherent "goodness" in existence, we simply exist, and that's that.

And that is why you fail to hear what we who believe in Jesus are saying.

This is why you are not hearing the evidence nor seeing the evidence because you already have it in your mind that it is untrue. When you believe, then it will become clear to you.

Don't patronise me.

I was willing, I did believe.

DId I choose not to believe, THEN lose my belief? No - I lost my belief... there was NEVER a point at which a 'choice' was made.

IF the 'truth' was as 'true' and 'evideent' as you claim... that just shouldn't be ABLE to happen.

So he does punish, punishes himself. He dies so that we could live eternally.

Your god is a masochist? If he is omnipotent, he would not have to resort to "punishing himself" unless he want to....

We chose with our free will not to love God, and disobeyed him.

In Biblical terms, we chose with our free will to not obey an authoritarian god. How is this evidence of not loving that god? You can love someone and not obey their every wish.

We have.

How would you know? Maybe not existing is better, neither you nor I would have the experience to say it isn't.

Why must we be objective? I'm asking subjectively: is your existence "good"?

I wouldn't know. Good is a relative term. I'd have to experience a few existances and non-existances first.

Don't patronise me.

I was willing, I did believe.

DId I choose not to believe, THEN lose my belief? No - I lost my belief... there was NEVER a point at which a 'choice' was made.

You have indeed made a choice and you have rejected what you believed. Now I understand one of Jesus's parables that much better.

IF the 'truth' was as 'true' and 'evideent' as you claim... that just shouldn't be ABLE to happen.

But it was made to happen when the Creator created us with Free Will.

Grave, you do this all the time. You intentionally misunderstand to make it sound bad

God created us with free will for one reason, to enable us to love. Love is impossible without free will. We chose with our free will not to love God, and disobeyed him.

God has to be just to that and so he does punish it. He can't just ignore it, it needs to be fixed. So he does punish, punishes himself. He dies so that we could live eternally.

But again he leaves us with a choice. It is up to us to either choose to be with him or not.

I don't believe, or agree with, your claims.

"Love is impossible without free will"... I see NO reason to beleive this... either logical or scriptural.

Not to mention - it shows pretty weak faith - 'with god, ALL things are possible'... no?

I didn't choose to use MY 'free will' to reject or refuse god... I just don't believe... which is not unreasonable, since there is no evidence. To punish an entity for not being able to see something you have obscured, is somewhere between sadistic and perverted.

"God has to be just"... and yet, he creates situations that are NOT just. He will not ALLOW Pharaoh to repent. He constructs an Eden test that cannot be passed. The God of the Bible is many things... 'just' is not one of them.

"He can't just ignore it"... again - a display of weak faith. ALL things are possible, remember. PLus - scripturally - he DOES just ignore it - he allows sins to be ameliorated through sacrifice, and he allows the vicarious substitution to hide sins behind blood of the lamb. Not only CAN he 'just ignore it'... but he DOES.

"He dies"... I'm not sure I'm all that sympathetic to the gestures of 'martyrdom', of an immortal entity that KNOWS it will be resurrected less than half a week after it's 'sacrifice'.

Your god is a masochist? If he is omnipotent, he would not have to resort to "punishing himself" unless he want to...

God is omnipotent, but also all just. And Jesus's death is justice. I pays the price for our sins so we don't have to.


In Biblical terms, we chose with our free will to not obey an authoritarian god. How is this evidence of not loving that god? You can love someone and not obey their every wish.

God is not authoriatiaran. Obeying his word the Bible is like obeying the manual of a CD player. If everyone lived the way the Bible encouraged vollentarly, the world would be a much better place. And while it is true you can love someone and not obey there every wish, it is like a parent. If a parent gives you a strict command you should obey it.

The way you're making it out is as if those of us who disbelieve in God have stood up and consciously denied a truth.

Obeying his word the Bible is like obeying the manual of a CD player.

Luckily for CD players, I've reasonable evidence the player the manual refers to exists.

no, i'm an athiest

The way you're making it out is as if those of us who disbelieve in God have stood up and consciously denied a truth.

So far you have but it doesn't matter when you accept Jesus. God wants you in heaven with Him and it sadden's his heart when his chidren reject him. By not accepting him, you have indeed made a choice against God.

You people who say no theres no evidence and hes really mean if he was real are being absurd.

Yes I believe there is and I respect that there are ppl who dont believe in it but dont talk about facts. did you know over %93 of biologists believe in GOD just because of their studies on the cells of living organism's and did you know Sigmund Freud the great Logic man that was a atheist was addicted to cocain in the late 18:00's and thats how he made most of his awnsers on lust and love. God and other things. If there was truly no god everyone would be dead they would all commit suicide because the absence of god would cause everyone to relize there isnt one. and I think just vote dont dictate and dont give Facts that arent backed up. please

God is omnipotent, but also all just. And Jesus's death is justice. I pays the price for our sins so we don't have to.

That's a very medieval view of justice. How is it just to have a substitute punished for the crime of another?

So far you have but it doesn't matter when you accept Jesus. God wants you in heaven with Him and it sadden's his heart when his chidren reject him. By not accepting him, you have indeed made a choice against God.

Man. That changes my outlook on the entire subject. It's like China being communist, and if you don't accept that, China rolls some tanks over and crushes your peaceful protest. The only difference is, China's government is an imperfect body of human beings, while God is perfect, all-powerful, and all-knowing.

Just as a reminder, I have philosophical qualms with the religion... these have nothing to do with the fact that I don't believe in God. I just don't believe in him.

Since you failed to reply to my post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11059137&postcount=4706) previously in reply to yours (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11059057&postcount=4695)... I'll take that as another "Corneliu Maneuver?"

You people who say no theres no evidence and hes really mean if he was real are being absurd.

Yes I believe there is and I respect that there are ppl who dont believe in it but dont talk about facts. did you know over %93 of biologists believe in GOD just because of their studies on the cells of living organism's and did you know Sigmund Freud the great Logic man that was a atheist was addicted to cocain in the late 18:00's and thats how he made most of his awnsers on lust and love. God and other things. If there was truly no god everyone would be dead they would all commit suicide because the absence of god would cause everyone to relize there isnt one. and I think just vote dont dictate and dont give Facts that arent backed up. please

...That was stupid. Also, the bolded sentence was far to long to go without punctuation of some sort...

Man. That changes my outlook on the entire subject. It's like China being communist, and if you don't accept that, China rolls some tanks over and crushes your peaceful protest. The only difference is, China's government is an imperfect body of human beings, while God is perfect, all-powerful, and all-knowing.

Just as a reminder, I have philosophical qualms with the religion... these have nothing to do with the fact that I don't believe in God. I just don't believe in him.

Since you failed to reply to my post previously in reply to yours... I'll take that as another "Corneliu Maneuver?"

Truth be told, I was on the phone with my girlfriend and didn't want to respond to a long post like that one while talking to her.

"Love is impossible without free will"... I see NO reason to beleive this... either logical or scriptural.

If you created a robot that looked exactly like a human being, that felt exactly like a human being, but whose every thought and response was programmed by you and you programmed it to respond with all the responses you would expect from loving you, then would it be real love? Of course not. You can force people to be physcially affectionate to you with threat of force or promise of payment etc but you cannot coerce love. That is an entirely diffrent thing.


Not to mention - it shows pretty weak faith - 'with god, ALL things are possible'... no?

Can God create a four sideded hexegon? No. Why not? Because the nature of a hexegon is to have six sides

Can God force someone to love him? No. Why not? Because the nature of love requires a free choice.


I didn't choose to use MY 'free will' to reject or refuse god... I just don't believe... which is not unreasonable, since there is no evidence. To punish an entity for not being able to see something you have obscured, is somewhere between sadistic and perverted.

God has not obscured it, he has given us his word the Bible. You can choose to not believe it and argue against it but the facts are all there. The evidence is there. Choose not to accept the Gospels, but it is your choice. And if you dont think they, and the bible as a whole, and the other sources are evidence enough, think again

http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

http://www.carm.org/bible/prophecy.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/gospels_written.htm


"God has to be just"... and yet, he creates situations that are NOT just. He will not ALLOW Pharaoh to repent. He constructs an Eden test that cannot be passed. The God of the Bible is many things... 'just' is not one of them.

Pharaoh had 10 chances to repent, and Eden wasnt a test, it was a place. All that had to be done was for Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, and they did.


"He can't just ignore it"... again - a display of weak faith. ALL things are possible, remember.

If he does ignore it, it is not justice.


PLus - scripturally - he DOES just ignore it - he allows sins to be ameliorated through sacrifice, and he allows the vicarious substitution to hide sins behind blood of the lamb. Not only CAN he 'just ignore it'... but he DOES

I wouldnt call leaving the heavenly courts to a stable in Bethlehem, living a life where the legitamacy of his birth was doubted, being mocked and ridiculed, betrayed and abandoned by closest friends and then being tortured and killed in one of the most horrible ways immagineable to solve the problem of sin 'just ignoring it'


"He dies"... I'm not sure I'm all that sympathetic to the gestures of 'martyrdom', of an immortal entity that KNOWS it will be resurrected less than half a week after it's 'sacrifice'.

He does die though. That is all that matters. And if you dont think it was much of a sacrifices, then please go through it yourself. Even with the knowledge that it will end and be ok, having your entire blood drained from your body isnt something at all that we could say is unsacrifical.

That's a very medieval view of justice. How is it just to have a substitute punished for the crime of another?

Well the only alternative is for us all to go to hell. God didnt want that so he created a means to save us.

I wouldn't know. Good is a relative term. I'd have to experience a few existances and non-existances first.

And that's what leaves us trapped where we are. We only have one universe, and so have no "control" group with which to compare it.

One possibility, however, is to compare the present universe to any number of imagined ones. Heck, we can even log into a few for $10-$15 per month.

Whenever I attempt this exercise, I always walk away with the conclusion that the present physical universe is "good."

To imagine a universe without conflict, challenge, or even suffering, is to imagine a universe without choices. A universe without free will. And without free will, why bother? We might as well be watching a movie, instead of living.