NationStates Jolt Archive

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?

No.

No evidence either way really.

Definately not.

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

Uuuugh...I had hope for this one...But you did 'yes' and 'no'. That's never gonna work...

Uuuugh...I had hope for this one...But you did 'yes' and 'no'. That's never gonna work...

Simple and and to the point.

I'm agnostic, but if you're only going to put Yes and No as options, I lean more towards no.

Edit: Ooooh...5000 posts. :)

Simple and and to the point.

It is, but these people aren't. There's people that would say "neither" or something to that effect.

Also, he changed the post question to 'does he exist', the question in the title would have worked better.

If there is a God, then he's not a very nice one.

I really don't care, but If I was pushed I would say no.

Yes, although I am agnostic towards its nature.

geez ruff, death sucks. it sucks big time. its not like you wont mourn every time someone you love dies no matter how or when.

some people go early, some live a long long time. in the end, everyone dies. my father in law told me that when his mother died at age 90 he was as sad as when his daughter died at age 6.

my point is that "god" wasnt being particularily cruel to your friend. she had a beautiful life for as long as she lived. she overcame adversity, she had a good family, she maintained her good spirits even as she was dying. she still inspires people even after she is gone. as the song on the radio says "thats a life you can hang your hat on".

god doesnt promise a life without pain. he doesnt say that if you believe in him and follow his commandments he'll make all your troubles go away.

he promises that if you ask, he'll help you get through it and that someday you will be brought to a more perfect existance where, in THAT life, there is no trouble and you will be reunited with those you have lost.

isnt that what your friend wanted for you?

i dont know...

god doesnt promise a life without pain. he doesnt say that if you believe in him and follow his commandments he'll make all your troubles go away.



true
thats what the individual who believs in god convinces himself
because there is no god
well, thats my point of view

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.


why not?

geez ruff, death sucks. it sucks big time. its not like you wont mourn every time someone you love dies no matter how or when.

some people go early, some live a long long time. in the end, everyone dies. my father in law told me that when his mother died at age 90 he was as sad as when his daughter died at age 6.

my point is that "god" wasnt being particularily cruel to your friend. she had a beautiful life for as long as she lived. she overcame adversity, she had a good family, she maintained her good spirits even as she was dying. she still inspires people even after she is gone. as the song on the radio says "thats a life you can hang your hat on".

god doesnt promise a life without pain. he doesnt say that if you believe in him and follow his commandments he'll make all your troubles go away.

he promises that if you ask, he'll help you get through it and that someday you will be brought to a more perfect existance where, in THAT life, there is no trouble and you will be reunited with those you have lost.

isnt that what your friend wanted for you?

Just propaganda to stir your hopes to enter a fairy tale world.

I find it funny that a higher being would have a gender......

(I use 'he' due to the fact that most other people do the same)

why not?

First of all, a better question is why would she?

Secondly, the God of the Bible is not a worthy god.

Third, the first hand evidence of the absurdity and suffering of our existence weighs against the existence of a god worthy of worship.

I could go on, but that seems sufficient.

First of all, a better question is why would she?

what do you mean by why would she?


Secondly, the God of the Bible is not a worthy god.

i myself have problems with the OT god...


Third, the first hand evidence of the absurdity and suffering of our existence weighs against the existence of a god worthy of worship.

I could go on, but that seems sufficient.

without suffering, how would we ever understand joy, happiness, love, ect? perhaps there is a reason for our suffering. whats so absurd about it?

Your reasons are exactly the same as mine, just replace friend with grandmother/aunt/ and mother. If there was a god, how could he do such evil things to good people, and let the assholes and bastards get away with nothing.

what do you mean by why would she?

I think he meant "why would she be worthy of worship?"

he promises that if you ask, he'll help you get through it and that someday you will be brought to a more perfect existance where, in THAT life, there is no trouble and you will be reunited with those you have lost.

What I don't get is how there can be 'a more perfect exisitance'. Really, it seems here on Earth there is both Heaven and Hell at the same time. I don't see how it could possibly be worse than Hell, and I also don't see how it can possibly be better than Heaven.

The thing I really don't get particually about Heaven is how people claim that it is perfect. But at the same time, not all of us get there, in fact very few of us do, according to Jesus. (he talked a lot about 'how hard it is to enter the Kingdom!' and stuff like that).

Now my question is, how can Heaven be perfect for one who's family is burning in Hell?

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.

Why?

And yes there is a God. A God who loved all of us that he gave His only begotten Son to die for us for who so ever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Il, was your friend a Christian?

i dont think there is a god as we know it life is a circle there is only one side we have our ups and our downfalls yes we have problems with others but we decide weather advercity can destroy us or make us stronger,
I saw a person close to me rot from the inside thrugh medical and the loss of his wife (my mum) he let it win by simply doing nothing and when he found the will to fight he let it slip i do not blame him his war was difficult and he fell but he did so with honour bearing the scars and the pain.
If there is anything else left after our corporial forms end i hope to end i can sort out my mistakes so i may end with no loose ties regreting some of the things i tuched turning to things i hate that would truly be hell knowing i have infinate power but no vent to use it on the earth for good or evil (sorta like an inflated ballon with no exit you feel the tension and the pressure but no hole to exit).
Your freind was vallient strong and true to you may you honour that name and soul and may she bring strength by power of action when you need it in the end, THIS in my eyes is immortality the power to inspire people to carry on when all seems to be lost and the honor of quiet refelection so that they may hold true all they hold dear and value all they have

I don't think we can no if a god exists or not so I just simply reserve my judgement.

First of all, a better question is why would she?

Our FATHER doesn't sound like a she. :rolleyes:

Secondly, the God of the Bible is not a worthy god.

Why?

Third, the first hand evidence of the absurdity and suffering of our existence weighs against the existence of a god worthy of worship.

I guess you do not know that it is written in the book of Genisis that due to the fall of man, we would have to suffer pain and suffering.

I could go on, but that seems sufficient.

I will pray for your soul and that you come and see the light before it is to late.

Third, the first hand evidence of the absurdity and suffering of our existence weighs against the existence of a god worthy of worship.

Without absurdity, we are not free.

I think he meant "why would she be worthy of worship?"


oh, well then i would say, (if god exists), that god would be worthy of worship because god created us. without god, we would not exist...

i dont think there is a god as we know it life is a circle there is only one side we have our ups and our downfalls yes we have problems with others but we decide weather advercity can destroy us or make us stronger,
I saw a person close to me rot from the inside thrugh medical and the loss of his wife (my mum) he let it win by simply doing nothing and when he found the will to fight he let it slip i do not blame him his war was difficult and he fell but he did so with honour bearing the scars and the pain.
If there is anything else left after our corporial forms end i hope to end i can sort out my mistakes so i may end with no loose ties regreting some of the things i tuched turning to things i hate that would truly be hell knowing i have infinate power but no vent to use it on the earth for good or evil (sorta like an inflated ballon with no exit you feel the tension and the pressure but no hole to exit).
Your freind was vallient strong and true to you may you honour that name and soul and may she bring strength by power of action when you need it in the end, THIS in my eyes is immortality the power to inspire people to carry on when all seems to be lost and the honor of quiet refelection so that they may hold true all they hold dear and value all they have

...Why were there only two periods and a comma among hundreds of words?

Our FATHER doesn't sound like a she.

Your god has a penis?

yes. its the only thing that has got me thus far in life.

Why?

And yes there is a God. A God who loved all of us that he gave His only begotten Son to die for us for who so ever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

A God who loves me so much that I will endure eternal torment because I refuse to accept that I should worship any other being, or atone for a sin that I don't think was a sin, and that I did not commit.

oh, well then i would say, (if god exists), that god would be worthy of worship because god created us. without god, we would not exist...

Your parents also created you. Do you worship them?

I will pray for your soul and that you come and see the light before it is to late.

What insulting hubris.

I thought Pride was a sin.

Your god has a penis?

Technically, it means he has a Y chromosome...

Your parents also created you. Do you worship them?

no, my parents are not responsible for all creation now are they? :p

Why?

And yes there is a God. A God who loved all of us that he gave His only begotten Son to die for us for who so ever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Il, was your friend a Christian?

I don't know how that question applies to the topic at hand. If she wasn't a Christian, should a God who supposedly created everything, love even those who do not love him back? Yes, he should.

And please, don't pull that line out. If he loved ALL of us, he wouldn't discriminate us.

Your god has a penis?

Well Jesus did teach us to pray by saying (and this depends on the type of Bible and what book of the Bible)

Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed by thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our Tresspasses, as we forgive those who have tresspassed against us. And lead us not into Temptation but deliever us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever, amen.

What I don't get is how there can be 'a more perfect exisitance'. Really, it seems here on Earth there is both Heaven and Hell at the same time. I don't see how it could possibly be worse than Hell, and I also don't see how it can possibly be better than Heaven.

The thing I really don't get particually about Heaven is how people claim that it is perfect. But at the same time, not all of us get there, in fact very few of us do, according to Jesus. (he talked a lot about 'how hard it is to enter the Kingdom!' and stuff like that).

Now my question is, how can Heaven be perfect for one who's family is burning in Hell?
one of the great mystic nuns of the middle ages (i always think its st claire but im probably wrong) asked god for a boon. as was common in the middle ages, it involved suffering.

she asked god to give her a terrible illness that would almost kill her but she would survive, to have her suffer as the disciples suffered at the foot of the cross, and to suffer as those in hell suffer.

she was granted the first 2, but when it came to suffering as those in hell suffer, it was revealed to her that there were no people suffering in hell. she didnt understand it, since she was raised a very good christian girl, but with god all things are possible

that doesnt mean that everyone makes it to heaven, just that no one makes it to hell.

no, my parents are not responsible for all creation now are they? :p

There's no evidence either way.;)

no, my parents are not responsible for all creation now are they? :p

Well then, think of all the evil people they didn't create, eh?

What insulting hubris.

I thought Pride was a sin.

I wasn't being prideful and how is it insulting?

Well then, think of all the evil people they didn't create, eh?

who says they were made evil?

I don't know how that question applies to the topic at hand. If she wasn't a Christian, should a God who supposedly created everything, love even those who do not love him back? Yes, he should.

And please, don't pull that line out. If he loved ALL of us, he wouldn't discriminate us.

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yes there is a God. A God who loved all of us that he gave His only begotten Son to die for us for who so ever believeth in Him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Do you realize how little sense that makes?

God set up a system where man would sin and have to suffer everlasting torment for it. The system--set up by God--also included an exception where God could suffer and die so that individuals who worship "Him" could escape torment and reap "everlasting" rewards.

That is, on its face, absurd and immoral.

I don't have faith in God.

I don't believe it's possible to know whether any god exists or not, so I'm not voting in the poll either.

Il, was your friend a Christian?
Yes, I'm pretty sure she went to church on sunday.

A lot of us go to God when we're in need. Even I, who doesn't really believe much in God, sometimes ask him for things, like when my Grandfather had lung cancer. But no, usually I don't follow religion, and I choose to be an Athiest for most situations.

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Because some old book says so?

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

what about those who believe in islam? what about all the people over the world that believe in a loving god, just not the christian one? people that spend there lives worshiping the creator, why would god refuse them because they were not christians?

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

The fact that you cannot fathom somebody's motives does not mean that they do not exist.

Do you think there is a God? And why do you feel that way?

Yes, I do.
I didn't used to believe in God, back when I was a kid. The formula was simple: no santa clause, no easter bunny, no tooth fairy, so therefore there was probably no God either.
As I grew older (teens), I realized that I simply cannot accept or comprehend a universe without a creator. I can technically think about existence like that, theoretically, but I simply cannot believe that all of this exists without any purpose.

I went through my own version of Pascal's Wager. My version goes something like this:
If there is no God, then it doesn't really matter what I do. So I might as well spend my time believing in a God, since that pursuit would be no more or less worthy than any other one.

Do you realize how little sense that makes?

All I'm out to do is to spread God's word and His love to the populace. I know people will not accept him and I grieve for those who will not make it into heaven.

God set up a system where man would sin and have to suffer everlasting torment for it. The system--set up by God--also included an exception where God could suffer and die so that individuals who worship "Him" could escape torment and reap "everlasting" rewards.

That is, on its face, absurd and immoral.

That my friend is where you are wrong.

who says they were made evil?

Well, God certainly knew what they'd end up being don't he?

I don't believe it's possible to know whether any god exists or not, so I'm not voting in the poll either.

there should have been an "other" option i think...

I went through my own version of Pascal's Wager. My version goes something like this:
If there is no God, then it doesn't really matter what I do. So I might as well spend my time believing in a God, since that pursuit would be no more or less worthy than any other one.

Which god? Why not the FSM?

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

"I conclude that all is well," says Oedipus, and that remark is sacred. It echoes in the wild and limited universe of man. It teaches that all is not, has not been, exhausted. It drives out of this world a god who had come into it with dissatisfaction and a preference for futile sufferings. It makes of fate a human matter, which must be settled among men.

All Sisyphus' silent joy is contained therein. His fate belongs to him. His rock is his thing. Likewise, the absurd man, when he contemplates his torment, silences all the idols. In the universe suddenly restored to silence, the myriad wondering little voices of the earth rise up. Unconscious, secret calls, invitations from all the faces, they are the necessary reverse and price of victory. there is no sun without shadow, and it is essential to know the night. The absurd man says yes and his effort will henceforth be unceasing. If there is a personal fate, there is no higher destiny, or at least there is but one which he concludes is inevitable and despicable. For the rest, he knows himself to be the master of his days. At that subtle moment when man glances backward over his life, Sisyphus returning toward his rock, in that silent pivoting he contemplates that series of unrelated actions which becomes his fate, created by him, combined under his memory's eye and soon sealed by his death. Thus, convinced of the wholly human origin of all that is human, a blind man eager to see who knows that the night has no end, he is still on the go. The rock is still rolling.

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html

what about those who believe in islam? what about all the people over the world that believe in a loving god, just not the christian one? people that spend there lives worshiping the creator, why would god refuse them because they were not christians?

Five reasons to account for the fact at least 4 billion people are going to hell:

1. People are gullible by nature. My God lets 4 billion people worship delusions because he thinks free will is important. Luckily I’m not gullible like the vast majority of the world. What do you mean they all think the same thing about me?

2. All religions are basically the same. So when Christians say there is a heaven that’s just like reincarnation. And when the Muslims say the Christians and Jews will all burn for eternity, that’s semantics.

3. I and my fellow believers are well-informed and smart. The other 4 billion people are ignorant morons despite the fact that many of them have advanced degrees and inexplicably high IQ scores.

4. God is stronger than the devil even though the devil has 4 billion people fooled while my God is sucking the hind tit. But don’t worry because he’s a good come-from-behind player. Eventually everyone will be in my religion.

5. We are the chosen people. My merciful God just isn’t into those other people.

~Scott Adams.

Now my question is, how can Heaven be perfect for one who's family is burning in Hell?

Not everybody likes their family.

there should have been an "other" option i think...

If you wanna knoww what the poll "should have been", it should've been 'Do you have faith in God', with the answers 'yes' and 'other'.

I have complete faith that there is a god (not which one it is, even though I think it is "God") because with everything that happened at one point in my life some higher power had to put me back on track.

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

You only sucessfully evaded the point of my post.

How can I end up in the same hell as Hitler or Nero Caesar? And why should I accept his Son as the lord and savior? The only thing that tells me to do this is one book. I should take the advice of one book that is chaulked full of promises, contridictions, and was written by MEN thousands of years ago? Sorry, this is not logical.

What insulting hubris.

I thought Pride was a sin.

Being Christian doesn't mean that you're without sin. It simply means that, ideally, you are able to acknowledge the fact that you are a sinner and that you do the best you can.

Well Jesus did teach us to pray by saying (and this depends on the type of Bible and what book of the Bible)

Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed by thy name. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our Tresspasses, as we forgive those who have tresspassed against us. And lead us not into Temptation but deliever us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever, amen.

Yes, because Jesus spoke King James English.

God must be a He because He is superior and superior people have penises.

I don't believe in God. Sometimes I'm not even sure if I believe in the existence of people I assume to have met personally[1], why would I ever believe in an entity who lives beyond my senses?

[1] - Note, this is a serious point. It would be very impetuous of me to assume my own sanity when I have no objective way of knowing for sure.

there should have been an "other" option i think...
Indeed, or it should have been the same question as the topic title rather than a different one. If the question was "Do you have faith in God?" then my answer is simple. Although I suppose some other people might not be certain about the existence of the judeo-christian god.

Being Christian doesn't mean that you're without sin. It simply means that, ideally, you are able to acknowledge the fact that you are a sinner and that you do the best you can.
He didn't acknowledge that his hubris was a sin though.

Yes, I'm pretty sure she went to church on sunday.

Ok. Do you think you're going to see her in the afterlife?

Ok. Do you think you're going to see her in the afterlife?
Who says there's an afterlife?

All religions are basically the same. So when Christians say there is a heaven that’s just like reincarnation. And when the Muslims say the Christians and Jews will all burn for eternity, that’s semantics.

Actually, when they say that Jews will burn for eternity, that's "Anti-semantics". :)

what about those who believe in islam? what about all the people over the world that believe in a loving god, just not the christian one? people that spend there lives worshiping the creator, why would god refuse them because they were not christians?

That I cannot answer for the only one who knows the answer is in Heaven.

Actually, when they say that Jews will burn for eternity, that's "Anti-semantics". :)

Heh.

All I'm out to do is to spread God's word and His love to the populace. I know people will not accept him and I grieve for those who will not make it into heaven.

Again with the hubris.

But it doesn't matter if "God's word" makes sense or not?


That my friend is where you are wrong.

Oh. I see. Well if you say so, that changes everything. It doesn't have to be explained or make sense.

Yes, because Jesus spoke King James English.

God must be a He because He is superior and superior people have penises.


What's your obsession with penises?

"Father" is just more of a term of respect than "intangible entity with indescribable attributes."
It doesn't mean that God is literally male, but it sure as heck doesn't mean that God is literally female either.
People only ever refer to God as "she" in order to try to piss people off.

Ok. Do you think you're going to see her in the afterlife?
I think when you die, you die.

That I cannot answer for the only one who knows the answer is in Heaven.

He does love all of us and wants all of us to be in His kingdom but He who does not accept his Son as his Lord and Savior will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you're going to preach, shouldn't you at least keep your message consistent?

He didn't acknowledge that his hubris was a sin though.

Then you can call him on that. :)

That I cannot answer for the only one who knows the answer is in Heaven.

You cannot explain why a superior being would condemn billions to eternal torment simply for failure to worship that being, yet you claim that being is worthy of worship?

I have complete faith that there is a god (not which one it is, even though I think it is "God") because with everything that happened at one point in my life some higher power had to put me back on track.
Isn't it possible that you put yourself back on track? Give yourself some credit.

You only sucessfully evaded the point of my post.

How can I end up in the same hell as Hitler or Nero Caesar? And why should I accept his Son as the lord and savior? The only thing that tells me to do this is one book. I should take the advice of one book that is chaulked full of promises, contridictions, and was written by MEN thousands of years ago? Sorry, this is not logical.

As I told Cat-Tribe, I only spread the word of God and His messege. The rest is up to the listener. If someone is interested in God, I would do my best to help him but he who is not, I would just thank them for their time.

You cannot explain why a superior being would condemn billions to eternal torment simply for failure to worship that being, yet you claim that being is worthy of worship?

The very nature of that superior being means that it is beyond our comprehension. So of course we cannot explain all of God's actions.

As for whether God is worthy of worship, when's the last time YOU created a universe?
Or even a simple law of physics, like gravity?

What's your obsession with penises?

"Father" is just more of a term of respect than "intangible entity with indescribable attributes."
It doesn't mean that God is literally male, but it sure as heck doesn't mean that God is literally female either.
People only ever refer to God as "she" in order to try to piss people off.
Cornelieu was the one insisting on calling god a he and that he was male.

I don't think god is referred to as a she to piss people off so much as it's an equally valid thing to call this "intangible entity with indescribably attributes" though the most accurate pronoun would be "it".

Yes, because Jesus spoke King James English.

God must be a He because He is superior and superior people have penises.

Go ahead and mock the Lord. I will not be responsible for the Consequences.

The very nature of that superior being means that it is beyond our comprehension. So of course we cannot explain all of God's actions.

As for whether God is worthy of worship, when's the last time YOU created a universe?
Or even a simple law of physics, like gravity?
Who said god created the universe?

Also, gravity is a theory, not a law and it's hardly simple.

Cornelieu was the one insisting on calling god a he and that he was male.

I don't think god is referred to as a she to piss people off so much as it's an equally valid thing to call this "intangible entity with indescribably attributes" though the most accurate pronoun would be "it".

A point that's really irrelevent, and one that people only bring up when they want to stir up a reaction.

That I cannot answer for the only one who knows the answer is in Heaven.


so how can you say that those that dont accept jesus as savior will not enter heaven?

He didn't acknowledge that his hubris was a sin though.

How is it a sin to pray for someone to see Christ?

Go ahead and mock the Lord. I will not be responsible for the Consequences.
She was mocking you. Don't identify yourself too much with the diety you worship, someone might get the wrong idea.

What's your obsession with penises?

"Father" is just more of a term of respect than "intangible entity with indescribable attributes."
It doesn't mean that God is literally male, but it sure as heck doesn't mean that God is literally female either.
People only ever refer to God as "she" in order to try to piss people off.

"Father" and "He" are terms of respect but "Mother" and "She" aren't?

If God has no gender, why use only one gender-specific term for God? Why use a gender-specific term at all?

Why does the Bible sometimes refer to God as a Mother? Was that simply to piss people off?

Go ahead and mock the Lord. I will not be responsible for the Consequences.

*Plays dramatic music*

First, suffering isn't a reason to doubt God's existence (at least not the Christian God's). Justice will be given in the afterlife.

Now that I've said that, my answer is no. Why?

Let's think. Belief in God depends on faith. His existence cannot be proven (there are people who say otherwise, but they're mistaken). Knowing this, the religion you choose comes down to pure chance. Why would God leave something so important up to chance?

And the argument that someone had to create the universe is unreasonable. If that was the case, then someone had to create him, and so on and so forth. There would be much higher beings to worship.

So if there is a god he (or it) would be nothing like the Christian one usually envisioned.

On a side note, I had this fun thought a couple of months ago: God, if He existed, wouldn't even be alive, biologically speaking. He doesn't reproduce, take in sustenance, excrete wastes, etc.

Who said god created the universe?

who/what else would have?

How is it a sin to pray for someone to see Christ?
Well, in my opinion stating opinions as facts is a pretty shitty thing to do, but you have demonstrated excessive pride, which is a sin according to your religion and then you denied it.

*Plays dramatic music*

*lightning strikes*

Who said god created the universe?

IF God exists, then He created the universe. By definition.
IF God does not exist, then why question whether God is worthy of worship?
Obviously, something that does not exist is not worthy of worship.
Therefore, when one questions whether God is worthy of being worshipped, they are acting under the premise that God actually exists, and that God exists in something resembling the standard definitions.

Also, gravity is a theory, not a law and it's hardly simple.

Eh. Close enough to make my point.

*Plays dramatic music*

*DUN DUN DUUUUUN*

Who says there's an afterlife?

God and Jesus.

IF God exists, then He created the universe. By definition.
IF God does not exist, then why question whether God is worthy of worship?
Obviously, something that does not exist is not worthy of worship.
Therefore, when one questions whether God is worthy of being worshipped, they are acting under the premise that God actually exists, and that God exists in something resembling the standard definitions.

You left out your point.

The very nature of that superior being means that it is beyond our comprehension. So of course we cannot explain all of God's actions.

As for whether God is worthy of worship, when's the last time YOU created a universe?
Or even a simple law of physics, like gravity?

So having been a creator -- no matter how cruel or immoral a creator -- is sufficient grounds for worship?

We must love and worship God simply because God created us - no matter what else God may or may not do?

"Father" and "He" are terms of respect but "Mother" and "She" aren't?

I never said that.

If God has no gender, why use only one gender-specific term for God? Why use a gender-specific term at all?

I already said, "'Father' is just more of a term of respect than 'intangible entity with indescribable attributes.'"
Likewise, "He" or "She" is more respectful than "It", which is the only alternative in our limited language.

Why does the Bible sometimes refer to God as a Mother? Was that simply to piss people off?
You'll have to cite where it does that.

On a side note, I had this fun thought a couple of months ago: God, if He existed, wouldn't even be alive, biologically speaking. He doesn't reproduce, take in sustenance, excrete wastes, etc.

Well, he had Jesus, didn't he? And evil only happens when God is in the bathroom, you see. Also, part of the torture of hell is being eaten by God.

I think when you die, you die.

I'll respect your beliefs but I hope you do reconsider God. Give Him a chance to be in your life.

who/what else would have?
Well, a vacuum fluctuation is the likely cause of the unvierse.

Also, how do you know that say, Brahmin didn't create the universe? Or that it wasn't created by Nyx laying an egg or any of the other millions of creator dieties or phenomena attributed to the birth of the universe?

"Father" and "He" are terms of respect but "Mother" and "She" aren't?

If God has no gender, why use only one gender-specific term for God? Why use a gender-specific term at all?

Why does the Bible sometimes refer to God as a Mother? Was that simply to piss people off?

The jewish/christiain/muslim God is refered to as a he, becuase those religions are based in a patriachial society. Thus, they beleive the male has the more important of the roles, the primary giver if you will. So then they refer to their ultimate caregiver,God, as a He.

God and Jesus.

Technically, the Bible says that God and Jesus said it.

You left out your point.

I answered the question.
It's not my fault if it somehow went over your head or something.

I'll respect your beliefs but I hope you do reconsider God. Give Him a chance to be in your life.
Give it a rest and stop pretending to respect other's beliefs, the rest of your statement clearly contradicts that.

The very nature of that superior being means that it is beyond our comprehension. So of course we cannot explain all of God's actions.

No. I don't buy that. If God can't explain to my poor, pathetic, mortal mind why I (and all my friends and family, plus billions of others) am going to Hell, then there's absolutely no way I will ever see Him as anything but an extremely cruel narcissist whose atrocities make Hitler, Stalin, and Mao look like mere pretenders.

There is no way anyone who sends so many people to Hell even approaches a being worthy of worship, period.

As for whether God is worthy of worship, when's the last time YOU created a universe? Or even a simple law of physics, like gravity?

So powerful entities are inherently worthy of worship? Should I worship George W. Bush, too?

If you're going to preach, shouldn't you at least keep your message consistent?

The only one who can answer that is in heaven. Frankly, I believe those that do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Technically, the Bible says the God and Jesus said it.

And it might say it metaphorically.

You cannot explain why a superior being would condemn billions to eternal torment simply for failure to worship that being, yet you claim that being is worthy of worship?

I believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and he who does not accept Jesus as his Savior will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

So having been a creator -- no matter how cruel or immoral a creator -- is sufficient grounds for worship?

We must love and worship God simply because God created us - no matter what else God may or may not do?

Not necessarily, but who are you to question a being so much smarter than you are? It's like a toddler getting miffed because he/she thinks that Daddy isn't doing the taxes right.

I answered the question.

Why so you did. Mea Cupla.

IF God exists, then He created the universe. By definition.
How is that the definition of a god? Athena didn't create the universe.

IF God does not exist, then why question whether God is worthy of worship?
Why assume this god exists?

Obviously, something that does not exist is not worthy of worship.
Therefore, when one questions whether God is worthy of being worshipped, they are acting under the premise that God actually exists, and that God exists in something resembling the standard definitions.
Because nobody ever toys with hypotheticals, ever.

Eh. Close enough to make my point.
What point was that?

The only one who can answer that is in heaven. Frankly, I believe those that do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Why not? What have we done to deserve eternal torment?

Not necessarily, but who are you to question a being so much smarter than you are? It's like a toddler getting miffed because he/she thinks that Daddy isn't doing the taxes right.
You're relying on the assumption that this god of yours is smarter than Cat Tribes, something that is not factually supported.

Also, how do you know that say, Brahmin didn't create the universe? Or that it wasn't created by Nyx laying an egg or any of the other millions of creator dieties or phenomena attributed to the birth of the universe?

i dont...

IF God exists, then He created the universe. By definition.
IF God does not exist, then why question whether God is worthy of worship?
Obviously, something that does not exist is not worthy of worship.
Therefore, when one questions whether God is worthy of being worshipped, they are acting under the premise that God actually exists, and that God exists in something resembling the standard definitions.

Nice circular reasoning.

Why can there not be a creator that does not resemble the Christian God?

Why do you assume that a creator is in and of itself worthy of worship?

Simply because a being has supernatural powers, it should be loved and worshiped?

Well, in my opinion stating opinions as facts is a pretty shitty thing to do, but you have demonstrated excessive pride, which is a sin according to your religion and then you denied it.

Its prideful to spread God's word?

No. I don't buy that. If God can't explain to my poor, pathetic, mortal mind why I (and all my friends and family, plus billions of others) am going to Hell, then there's absolutely no way I will ever see Him as anything but an extremely cruel narcissist whose atrocities make Hitler, Stalin, and Mao look like mere pretenders.

What makes you so sure that you're going to Hell?

There is no way anyone who sends so many people to Hell even approaches a being worthy of worship, period.

How many people are we talking about?
Do you have some sort of inside information that I don't? Have you been peeking at The Infernal Guestbook?

So powerful entities are inherently worthy of worship? Should I worship George W. Bush, too?

It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of intelligence.
God has designed and created a universe that works in ways we don't even understand. The complete body of knowledge of humanity barely scratches the surface of things.
We don't even really know what we're looking at yet, but you're already going to criticize the design?

The only one who can answer that is in heaven. Frankly, I believe those that do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

why? is it because of a book that says so?

God and Jesus.
Really, you spoke to them and they told you this?

Or are you getting this from a book written by some men nearly 2000 years ago.

If I go back in time and write a book, get some people to believe that its events really happened and then come back here and cite that book as evidence, does that make my beliefs valid?

Hell, the Vedas are older than the bible is.

Not necessarily, but who are you to question a being so much smarter than you are? It's like a toddler getting miffed because he/she thinks that Daddy isn't doing the taxes right.

Daddy should be able to explain, especially if he's all-knowing.

Also, how do you know that say, Brahmin didn't create the universe? Or that it wasn't created by Nyx laying an egg or any of the other millions of creator dieties or phenomena attributed to the birth of the universe?
If I had to bet, I would say it was the Flying Spagetti Monster, but that's just me.

The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster:
www.venganza.org

Technically, the Bible says that God and Jesus said it.

"In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

i dont...
exactly. Nobody does.

Nice circular reasoning.

Why can there not be a creator that does not resemble the Christian God?

There could be.
But we're talking about "God", not "a God" or "a divine power" or "zeuss" or "Odin".

Why do you assume that a creator is in and of itself worthy of worship?
Simply because a being has supernatural powers, it should be loved and worshiped?

I already answered this question.

Give it a rest and stop pretending to respect other's beliefs, the rest of your statement clearly contradicts that.

Believe what you will.

Not necessarily, but who are you to question a being so much smarter than you are? It's like a toddler getting miffed because he/she thinks that Daddy isn't doing the taxes right.

1. If a being has greater powers than us, that being must be smarter than us?

2. If some being is smarter than us, it deserves our love and worship?

3. If some being has greater powers or is smarter than us, that being should never be questioned?

4. We should ignore our own reason and experience and simply blindly follow without question or thought? That is what your God demands?

"In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Which is written in the 'Word'.

If I had to bet, I would say it was the Flying Spagetti Monster, but that's just me.

The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster:
www.venganza.org
Yeah, they've at least got a chart, the bible doesn't have a chart.

Hell, the Vedas are older than the bible is.

not really. both old dates for the vedas and old testament beginings are about 1500-1400 bc.

Why not? What have we done to deserve eternal torment?

By not believing in his Son, Jesus Christ.

Believe what you will.
It's not a belief when it's factual. You state that you respect someone's beliefs and then follow that statement with a show of disrespect for their beliefs. Don't lie and say you respect others beliefs when you really don't. Or at least have the decency to hold off on your disrespect right after you claim to respect what they believe.

What makes you so sure that you're going to Hell?

Oh, lots of reasons.

1. I completely reject the idea that Jesus was divine;
2. I refuse to repent for a sin I didn't commit ("Original Sin");
3. I refuse to repent for sins I don't think were sins (lots of these);
4. I don't believe that any entity can somehow absolve me of sin;
5. I don't believe any being is worthy of worship;
6. I question God's existence;
7. If God does exist, I reject his superiority over me.

How many people are we talking about?
Do you have some sort of inside information that I don't? Have you been peeking at The Infernal Guestbook?

My family's Jewish and my friends (with one exception) are all atheists. I suppose it's unfair to project upon to you the view that Corneliu has been promoting, but I made my argument with that view in mind, because you responded to a post arguing with that view.

It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of intelligence.
God has designed and created a universe that works in ways we don't even understand. The complete body of knowledge of humanity barely scratches the surface of things.
We don't even really know what we're looking at yet, but you're already going to criticize the design?

Yes, I am. Nothing whatsoever can justify an omnipotent deity sentencing billions of people to eternal torment just because they aren't Christian.

The jewish/christiain/muslim God is refered to as a he, becuase those religions are based in a patriachial society. Thus, they beleive the male has the more important of the roles, the primary giver if you will. So then they refer to their ultimate caregiver,God, as a He.

Agreed. And if you do not except patriarchy, one can use other terms for God.

Which is written in the 'Word'.

John Chapter 1 actually. :D

How is that the definition of a god? Athena didn't create the universe.

Get serious.
We're talking about "God", not "a god".
Don't change subjects mid conversation.

Why assume this god exists?

What do you mean?

Because nobody ever toys with hypotheticals, ever.

Uh, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
When a person questions the nature of God, they are hypothetically assuming the premise, for the sake of the conversation, that God exists.
Unless they're asking for the attributes of something that doesn't have any attributes, in which case the person is just being nonsensical.

What point was that?
Reread the thread and see if you can pick it up this time.

By not believing in his Son, Jesus Christ.

So because I don't believe some radical Jewish rabbi from two thousand years ago is a great divine being who can get rid of my sins, I deserve eternal torment?

Why is that?

Edit: So am I going to Hell if I don't believe in Menachem Mendel Schneerson, too?

You're relying on the assumption that this god of yours is smarter than Cat Tribes, something that is not factually supported.

1. Cat Tribes cannot even explain how the universe works.
2. God* designed the universe.

The facts support it very well.

*(assuming for the sake of this conversation that He exists, etc. etc.)

not really. both old dates for the vedas and old testament beginings are about 1500-1400 bc.
The oldest versions of the old testament were written adound 200BCE and there isn't much archeological evidence to support the idea that a monotheistic society existed in the region too long before then.
The Vedas are known to have been composed by 1500 BCE, however there are many who study them who consider them to be much older, having at least an oral tradition going back as far as 6000BCE.

It's not a belief when it's factual. You state that you respect someone's beliefs and then follow that statement with a show of disrespect for their beliefs. Don't lie and say you respect others beliefs when you really don't. Or at least have the decency to hold off on your disrespect right after you claim to respect what they believe.

As I said, believe what you will.

So because I don't believe some radical Jewish rabbi from two thousand years ago is a great divine being who can get rid of my sins, I deserve eternal torment?

Why is that?

He wasn't a rabbi.

Daddy should be able to explain, especially if he's all-knowing.

He can explain it, but the toddler cannot comprehend the meaning of the words.

Agreed. And if you do not except patriarchy, one can use other terms for God.


Well, should you not still call God a Him though...outta respect?

I mean even if say, you don't agree that President Bush should be president, you still refer to him as President.

1. Cat Tribes cannot even explain how the universe works.
2. God* designed the universe.

The facts support it very well.

*(assuming for the sake of this conversation that He exists, etc. etc.)

Yeah, but when has God even attempted to explain the universe to you? Cat Tribes could tell you more than you've ever heard from God.

"In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

"The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary; a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles and do not say: 'Three.' ...Allah is but one God...." (Koran 4:171)


"They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did... They have no knowledge thereof but the pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, but God took him up to Himself." (Koran 4:154-158)

So because I don't believe some radical Jewish rabbi from two thousand years ago is a great divine being who can get rid of my sins, I deserve eternal torment?

Why is that?
You've sinned, so you're not perfect and deserve eternal torment. Only by the grace of God would you be forgiven of your sins and be admitted to Heaven. It makes sense to me, even if I don't believe it.

Creationists keep asking for "proof" that god does not exist, but is there any proof that God DOES exist? No. None. Zip. Nada.

Hence, God does not exist.

There could be.
But we're talking about "God", not "a God" or "a divine power" or "zeuss" or "Odin".



I already answered this question.

No. You have not answered the question.

You have merely assumed that a creator is intrinsically worthy of worship. That is not an answer, it is an assumption --- and a rather poor one at that.

He can explain it, but the toddler cannot comprehend the meaning of the words.

I'm sure something like God could find a way to teach a toddler.

Even if I was religious, I would choose hell willingly anyway. I could never join an exclusive club of xenophobes, which is what any religion's heaven is by default. No different to a gated community where everyone is of the same skin colour, and all others are kept at bay with dogs and guns. :cool:

1. If a being has greater powers than us, that being must be smarter than us?

Try again.

2. If some being is smarter than us, it deserves our love and worship?

Not necessarily, but we should certainly give it benefit of doubt unless we have good reason not to.

3. If some being has greater powers or is smarter than us, that being should never be questioned?

Oh, we can and should question.
We just shouldn't get pissed off if we don't get answers, and we shouldn't assume that the answers would be something bad.

4. We should ignore our own reason and experience and simply blindly follow without question or thought?

We shouldn't.

That is what your God demands?
Not at all.

1. Cat Tribes cannot even explain how the universe works.
I can explain how the universe works better than most people here, it doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else.

2. God* designed the universe.

The facts support it very well.

*(assuming for the sake of this conversation that He exists, etc. etc.)
You have to present facts in order for the facts to support something. You assumed the existence of a deity. That's a pretty big assumption to make.

He can explain it, but the toddler cannot comprehend the meaning of the words.

If he's all-knowing, then he should be able to explain it in a way that the toddler can understand.

He wasn't a rabbi.

I'm being nice. He was probably a pretender.

"The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was no more than Allah's apostle and His Word which He cast to Mary; a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His apostles and do not say: 'Three.' ...Allah is but one God...." (Koran 4:171)


"They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did... They have no knowledge thereof but the pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, but God took him up to Himself." (Koran 4:154-158)

And if a Muslim firmly believes this then why are Muslims killing Christians?

Creationists keep asking for "proof" that god does not exist, but is there any proof that God DOES exist? No. None. Zip. Nada.

Hence, God does not exist.


Who said anything about Creationists. Plus just because you can't prove something, does not mean it doesn't exist. You can't physically prove that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but does that mean it doesn't exist?

Creationists keep asking for "proof" that god does not exist, but is there any proof that God DOES exist? No. None. Zip. Nada.

Hence, God does not exist.

And what proof do you have that he does not, in fact exist?

You've sinned, so you're not perfect and deserve eternal torment.

But why do I deserve eternal torment because I've sinned? It just isn't proportionate.

And why does worshipping Jesus make me somehow better?

Well, should you not still call God a Him though...outta respect?

I mean even if say, you don't agree that President Bush should be president, you still refer to him as President.

Why should I assume that "Her" is not a term of respect?

Who said anything about Creationists. Plus just because you can't prove something, does not mean it doesn't exist. You can't physically prove that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but does that mean it doesn't exist?

You can statistically speculate...figure out that it most likely does.

The oldest versions of the old testament were written adound 200BCE and there isn't much archeological evidence to support the idea that a monotheistic society existed in the region too long before then.
The Vedas are known to have been composed by 1500 BCE, however there are many who study them who consider them to be much older, having at least an oral tradition going back as far as 6000BCE.

the isaiah scroll found among the dead sea scrolls is dated to 335bc. so it would have been composed earlier than that copy. its believed to be 1450 or so that the old testament was being composed. we cant tell if its true or not. its just speculation...

And if a Muslim firmly believes this then why are Muslims killing Christians?

why did christians kill muslims in the crusades?

And what proof do you have that he does not, in fact exist?

The same proof you have for Santa, I'd imagine.

And if a Muslim firmly believes this then why are Muslims killing Christians?
The Muslims killing Christians are by far the minority. They are analagous to the Klu Klux Klan (which claimed to be Christian).

And what about the crusades? Do they not count?

This ignorance really pisses me off.

Oh, lots of reasons.

1. I completely reject the idea that Jesus was divine;
2. I refuse to repent for a sin I didn't commit ("Original Sin");
3. I refuse to repent for sins I don't think were sins (lots of these);
4. I don't believe that any entity can somehow absolve me of sin;
5. I don't believe any being is worthy of worship;
6. I question God's existence;
7. If God does exist, I reject his superiority over me.

And you think that all of this merits you going to Hell?

My family's Jewish and my friends (with one exception) are all atheists. I suppose it's unfair to project upon to you the view that Corneliu has been promoting, but I made my argument with that view in mind, because you responded to a post arguing with that view.

Safe to say that I have quite a different view.

Yes, I am. Nothing whatsoever can justify an omnipotent deity sentencing billions of people to eternal torment just because they aren't Christian.

That would depend on the circumstances. Since we know nothing at all about them, we're not qualified to judge.
BUT, you're making a huge leap here that is not necessary.
You're assuming that fundamentalist, fanatical Christians are completely right about the attributes and nature of God.
Why?
Why not just assume that God only sends to Hell the people who truly deserve it?

I just felt like answering the question by saying no; I am an atheist.

Creationists keep asking for "proof" that god does not exist, but is there any proof that God DOES exist? No. None. Zip. Nada.

Hence, God does not exist.And what proof do you have that he does not, in fact exist?

Work on your reading comprehension.

I have no evidence my pooka friend Harvey exists. Because there is no evidence should you assume Harvey exists?

Even if I was religious, I would choose hell willingly anyway. I could never join an exclusive club of xenophobes, which is what any religion's heaven is by default. No different to a gated community where everyone is of the same skin colour, and all others are kept at bay with dogs and guns. :cool:

How are most religions,including christianity, compromised of xenophobes? How would they survive the ages, if it was a group of exclusives? Infact most religions promote intergrating more people in.

What do you mean?
What else could I mean. Why do you assume a god exists in the first place? That's what your entire argument rides on: an assumption that no one can prove or disprove.

why did christians kill muslims in the crusades?

Why did the Muslims attack Jerusalem?

This ignorance really pisses me off.

heh, take a deep breath. "serenity now..."

And if a Muslim firmly believes this then why are Muslims killing Christians?

Good question.

On a related note, if Jesus preaches turning the other cheek, why are Christians killing Muslims in return?

Or why'd Christians kill them during the Crusades?

Christianity is very western, all sorts of double-standards.

I'm sure something like God could find a way to teach a toddler.

Assuming omnipotence, yes.
But assumedly He had some reason for giving us a limited brain capacity, which causes our inability to know everything.

Why did the Muslims attack Jerusalem?

your missing the point...

And what proof do you have that he does not, in fact exist?

Right back at you: What proof do you have that Odin and Zeus don't exist?

You know, I have had this discussion with my husband. Both of use were raised Catholic and force-fed the rhetoric and such from parochial schools, leading to my and his complete and total disdain for organized religion.

that being said, yes, i have faith in God. I have to, because there has to be something more, some reason (I have a feeling I will get crucified, no pun intended, for these beliefs on the forum, but so be it) that this world is cruel and is vicious, that there is some payoff in the end.

why do bad things happen to good people? because God is a loving and cruel God, or at least that was the standard business line the Catholic nuns drilled into our brains. We were constantly shown the story of Job and how basically he got shit on because he believed, loved and honored God.

OK, but back to the question at hand. Do i have faith in God? Yeah, although looking at the state of the world, especially with what seems like the recent rash of vicious murders of innocent children, i question as to how strong that faith is. I have faith, because the idea that there is something more than this world. I guess that could fit into a lot of different faiths, but I was born and raised Catholic, and the Christian faith is the one that fits for me, even though I am one of the most casual practitioners, i still believe, still have tat blind faith, sucks as it does sometimes.

and that was my religious rant for tonight, thank you for tuning in.

You cannot explain why a superior being would condemn billions to eternal torment simply for failure to worship that being, yet you claim that being is worthy of worship?

God does not damn us, we damn ourselves. Hell is not a place but rather the complete and utter abscence of God's love. He never stops loving us, we only choose to remove ourselves from God's love. When people die, they are taken into the presence of God and the implications of the whole of our actions from our time in temporal plain is played out before us. The good and the bad is both seen. Those who are damn are those so ashamed by their actions that they can't forgive themselves and they reject God's love. God is alway willing to forgive us, but as being endowed with free will, he will not stop us from rejecting his forgiveness.

As a Catholic, that is what I believe. The pain that we experience as a result of the ramifications of our sins being played out in front of us I would explain purgatory.

Bad things happen to good people because God does not interfere with our lives. He has on rare occasions altered the course of the whole fate of humanity (the Exodus, the Incarnation and Resurrection). However, He created us as beings with free wills and He will not infringe upon that. Our suffering is the result of human actions, not His divine will. Freedom is always paralleled by responsibility. The freedom He endowed us with thus results in our suffering.

Assuming omnipotence, yes.
But assumedly He had some reason for giving us a limited brain capacity, which causes our inability to know everything.

Playthings?

And you think that all of this merits you going to Hell?

No. Hence my disagreement with Corneliu.

Safe to say that I have quite a different view.

Okay.

That would depend on the circumstances. Since we know nothing at all about them, we're not qualified to judge.

It's pretty absolutist for me. I don't think any circumstance exists where eternal torment is justified.

Why should I assume that "Her" is not a term of respect?


Ok...back to my refrence of president..say you are from...UK(perhaps you already are)But would you call the US leader Prime Minister, because thats what your background favors, or would you call it by what the people of the US called their leader?

I can explain how the universe works better than most people here, it doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else.

Why not?

You have to present facts in order for the facts to support something. You assumed the existence of a deity. That's a pretty big assumption to make.

No, I am discussing the hypothetical existence of a diety.
You're not good at hypotheticals, are you?

The Muslims killing Christians are by far the minority. They are analagous to the Klu Klux Klan (which claimed to be Christian).

And what about the crusades? Do they not count?

This ignorance really pisses me off.

I believe it was Constinenopal who called for assistance when the muslims attacked Jerusalem. The Crusades where about retaking Jerusalem and defending the Holy Land. Frankly, doing the whole affair in the name of Religion was really stupid but then, I do have the hindsight of history.

You can't physically prove that life exists elsewhere in the universe, but does that mean it doesn't exist?
Yes you could, you coudl go out and find it. You can't prove that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe however.

But why do I deserve eternal torment because I've sinned? It just isn't proportionate.

And why does worshipping Jesus make me somehow better?
I guess I agree with you on the proportionate....

Anyway, by acknowledging that Jesus is holy, you give him a chance to absolve you of your sins, making you holy enough to enter heaven. Basic Christianity, man. Keep up.

Why should I assume that "Her" is not a term of respect?

For some people, some cultures, and some religions, it IS.
But it isn't a term of respect for God in any form of monotheism that I know of.

As I said, believe what you will.
Your arrogance is astonishing.

Good question.

On a related note, if Jesus preaches turning the other cheek, why are Christians killing Muslims in return?

Or why'd Christians kill them during the Crusades?

Christianity is very western, all sorts of double-standards.

To be told, Christianity started in the Middle East.

Anyway, by acknowledging that Jesus is holy, you give him a chance to absolve you of your sins, making you holy enough to enter heaven. Basic Christianity, man. Keep up.

I know the doctrine. I'm questioning the morality, and its consistency with the idea of a "loving God."

Why can't Jesus just absolve me of my sins anyway?

Isn't it possible that you put yourself back on track? Give yourself some credit.

No, I was doing tons of crystal meth and speed and well everything everyday. I was sleeping around, drinking anything I could get my hands on, and I was wasting away my money. I was on too many drugs, drinking too much, and too worried about sex to have ever thought anything positive. I did nothing, however, something much stronger than my will did.

Assuming omnipotence, yes.
But assumedly He had some reason for giving us a limited brain capacity, which causes our inability to know everything.

Why must we assume that reason was a good one?

Your arguments amount to little more than "God is bigger than you, so you must love and worship him."

You have yet to explain why more powerful automatically means better and good.

I smelll something burning...Oh no...i sense a flame war to come!

Why not?
Because it doesn't?

No, I am discussing the hypothetical existence of a diety.
You're not good at hypotheticals, are you?
I have problems when people start basing real conclusions on hypothetical situations.

How are most religions,including christianity, compromised of xenophobes? How would they survive the ages, if it was a group of exclusives? Infact most religions promote intergrating more people in.
Religions are exclusive by design, and are xenophobic by default. The major ones have at their core the idea that in the end, their members and only their members, gain access to heaven, and all others are condemned. Religions do try to recruit, but realistically, one may as well try to ask people to become millionaires, or change their skin pigmentation. At the end of the day, if you're not part of the group, you're not getting in, and the rest deserve misery.

Thus I view all visions of heaven as a privileged gated community keeping the blacks, jews and homosexuals (or christians or muslims, etc) out with walls and outsourced repression.

If my country pulled that shit, I'd leave. If I was religious, I would choose hell.

No, I was doing tons of crystal meth and speed and well everything everyday. I was sleeping around, drinking anything I could get my hands on, and I was wasting away my money. I was on too many drugs, drinking too much, and too worried about sex to have ever thought anything positive. I did nothing, however, something much stronger than my will did.
Obviously you did something. Or you quit doing some things.


Again, give yourself some credit, if you overcame all that, you're stronger and better than you thought.

your missing the point...

Actually I'm not if you bother to study history. The Eastern Roman Emperor called for assistance when the Holy land was attacked. Why did the Muslims attack Jerusalem for?

In a way, one could, notice the word could, say that the Christians were defending the land where Christ died. Of course, I think the Crusades were a stupid Idea but hey, I wasn't around and no asked me.

Could they not turn the other cheek?
Muslim is just as at fault as any other religion. Well, not the asian ones.

And on God:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Actually I'm not if you bother to study history. The Eastern Roman Emperor called for assistance when the Holy land was attacked. Why did the Muslims attack Jerusalem for?

In a way, one could, notice the word could, say that the Christians were defending the land where Christ died. Of course, I think the Crusades were a stupid Idea but hey, I wasn't around and no asked me.

thats ironic, seeing how i am a history major...

they did it in the name of thier religion, just like the muslim terrorists. hence my point...

What else could I mean. Why do you assume a god exists in the first place? That's what your entire argument rides on: an assumption that no one can prove or disprove.

I wasn't sure if you were asking why I personally believe in God, or why I was assuming the existence of God for this conversation.
You apparently mean the second, which is... silly.

If somebody said, "why would anybody like unicorns" and I said, "Maybe they like horses with a pretty horn", would you then respond by saying that I'm being absurd, since there is no reason to believe that unicorns exist?
YOU might, but rational thinking people would not.
Because if you're discussing the attributes of a hypothetical entity, it is assumed for the conversation that that something exists.

For some people, some cultures, and some religions, it IS.
But it isn't a term of respect for God in any form of monotheism that I know of.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

For example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_gender

I know the doctrine. I'm questioning the morality, and its consistency with the idea of a "loving God."

Why can't Jesus just absolve me of my sins anyway?
...
That's a good question. I think I'll add that to my list of reasons why I don't believe.

Your arrogance is astonishing.

For the third time, believe what you will.

Playthings?

Perhaps, but that doesn't work with the idea that God is perfect.

Religions are exclusive by design, and are xenophobic by default. The major ones have at their core the idea that in the end, their members and only their members, gain access to heaven, and all others are condemned. Religions do try to recruit, but realistically, one may as well try to ask people to become millionaires, or change their skin pigmentation. At the end of the day, if you're not part of the group, you're not getting in, and the rest deserve misery.

Thus I view all visions of heaven as a privileged gated community keeping the blacks, jews and homosexuals (or christians or muslims, etc) out with walls and outsourced repression.

If my country pulled that shit, I'd leave. If I was religious, I would choose hell.


I still don't see your point of view as being correct. Perhaps its because I have been a christian for 5 yrs now and i see all the diversity in the church. It goes beyong color, class, or political aspiration. Or from what i have seen in my experience

It's pretty absolutist for me. I don't think any circumstance exists where eternal torment is justified.

What makes you think that Hell is eternal torment?

thats ironic, seeing how i am a history major...

Funny thing is, I am too.

they did it in the name of thier religion, just like the muslim terrorists. hence my point...

And I already said that to do it in the name of religion was stupid but that still doesn't explain why the Muslims decided to attack Jerusalem.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

For example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_and_gender

Oh. It's a link to Wikipedia.
Great.
What about it?

If there's something relevent there, cite it.

I wasn't sure if you were asking why I personally believe in God, or why I was assuming the existence of God for this conversation.
You apparently mean the second, which is... silly.

If somebody said, "why would anybody like unicorns" and I said, "Maybe they like horses with a pretty horn", would you then respond by saying that I'm being absurd, since there is no reason to believe that unicorns exist?
YOU might, but rational thinking people would not.
Because if you're discussing the attributes of a hypothetical entity, it is assumed for the conversation that that something exists.
No, I'm asking why assume the existence of a god at all. If you're discussing an entirely hypotehtical situation then why the hell are we even wasting our time talking about this? Unless you're talking about making a real assumption about the existence of a deity. Which is, by the way what meant. Not the assuming for the sake of a hypothetical situation idea.

Perhaps, but that doesn't work with the idea that God is perfect.

When has anything ever worked with that idea? Yanno, 4 billion and some people for enternal damnation? Malfunctioning creations maybe? A perfect creator makes perfect creations

Funny thing is, I am too.



And I already said that to do it in the name of religion was stupid but that still doesn't explain why the Muslims decided to attack Jerusalem.
Perhaps they were also stupid? Just a guess.

What makes you think that Hell is eternal torment?


eternal darkness, the gnashing of the toungue, the seperation from God, etc...

What makes you think that Hell is eternal torment?

I was making the assumption based on the typical view of Hell. I obviously don't know.

If Hell is not in fact eternal torment, the system might be more just. But I still don't think someone's belief or lack of belief in God/Jesus/etc. is a morally relevant trait.

What makes you think that Hell is eternal torment?

You're kidding, right?

Perhaps they were also stupid? Just a guess.

That I can buy.

Perhaps, but that doesn't work with the idea that God is perfect.

Your assumption that, if God exists, God must be perfect is just that: an assumption without basis in reason or fact.

Because it doesn't?

I disagree.

I have problems when people start basing real conclusions on hypothetical situations.

Let me know when you encounter such a situation.

I still don't see your point of view as being correct. Perhaps its because I have been a christian for 5 yrs now and i see all the diversity in the church. It goes beyong color, class, or political aspiration. Or from what i have seen in my experience

Those were examples. He was comparing "white only" to "christian only", not saying "only whites are christians".

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?

-dying is good, you go to heaven
-maybe she served her purpose by setting an example (how has she affected anyone she knew by her life?)

I do belive God exists, too much evidence. Many of my family members have seen proof. Also, without God, what's the point of life?

"What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junk yard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for takeoff? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junk yards to fill the whole universe!" -Sir Fred Hoyle

When has anything ever worked with that idea? Yanno, 4 billion and some people for enternal damnation? Malfunctioning creations maybe? A perfect creator makes perfect creations


And the perfect creator gives them free will and they are able to make themself not perfect anymore.

And what proof do you have that he does not, in fact exist?

1. I've never seen god or any miraculous event.
2. There is no physical evidence for the existence of heaven or hell.
3. There is plenty of evidence backing up the theory of evolution, but there is no physical evidence backing up Adam and Eve.
4. What proof do you have of the fact that he does exist? Didn't think so.

No, I'm asking why assume the existence of a god at all. If you're discussing an entirely hypotehtical situation then why the hell are we even wasting our time talking about this? Unless you're talking about making a real assumption about the existence of a deity. Which is, by the way what meant. Not the assuming for the sake of a hypothetical situation idea.

Let's backtrack.
Somebody (I forget who) said that they didn't believe that God was worthy of being worshipped.
This assumes, for the sake of the conversation, that God exists.
I went with this assumption and explained the reasons.
Then you got weird and tried to jump on me for working within the frame of the discussion.

I still don't see your point of view as being correct. Perhaps its because I have been a christian for 5 yrs now and i see all the diversity in the church. It goes beyong color, class, or political aspiration. Or from what i have seen in my experience
It doesn't go beyond the church. That is the point.

Do Muslims and Jews get into a Christian heaven? Do Christians or Jews get into a Muslim heaven? What of those who subscribe to Taoism? What about Animists? Those who are naturally not spiritual at all? What of those whose lifestyles or professions are proscribed?

There is no diversity in any religion, because each claims a special status.

Your assumption that, if God exists, God must be perfect is just that: an assumption without basis in reason or fact.

Perfection is a quality that is typically attributed to God.
It's not my fault if you never heard of this concept.

You're kidding, right?

Nope.
Not really.

1. I've never seen god or any miraculous event.
2. There is no physical evidence for the existence of heaven or hell.
3. There is plenty of evidence backing up the theory of evolution, but there is no physical evidence backing up Adam and Eve.
4. What proof do you have of the fact that he does exist? Didn't think so.


I liken God to the wind. You can't physically see Him, but you can see His work around you.

And the perfect creator gives them free will and they are able to make themself not perfect anymore.

*shrug* You'd think he could do a better job of teaching them how not to. Then again, he's never cared for logic, he can give us free will and keep us perfect.

Your assumption that, if God exists, God must be perfect is just that: an assumption without basis in reason or fact.

how could god not be perfect?

Oh. It's a link to Wikipedia.
Great.
What about it?

If there's something relevent there, cite it.

Was I mistaken in making the assumption you could read?

The article discusses the gender of the nouns used in the original greek and Hebrew to describe God.

The article discusses how God -- particularly the Holy Spirit -- is sometimes referred to in the Bible using feminine nouns.

The article also gives examples of those who believe God should be referred to as "She."

At a minimum, the article shows that your assumption that all of monotheism refers to God as "Him" is false.

I don't normally rely on Wikipedia, but the article speaks for itself. It is, in and of itself, evidence contary to your assumption.

It doesn't go beyond the church. That is the point.

Do Muslims and Jews get into a Christian heaven? Do Christians or Jews get into a Muslim heaven? What of those who subscribe to Taoism? What about Animists? Those who are naturally not spiritual at all? What of those whose lifestyles or professions are proscribed?

There is no diversity in any religion, because each claims a special status.


Actually I think there are some Jews that do get into Heaven.

I liken God to the wind. You can't physically see Him, but you can see His work around you.

Yeah...I can see leaves blowing in the wind, and support that the wind does in fact exist and is doing that...not to mention the wind isn't really a thing, it's more of an action I guess...

Was I mistaken in making the assumption you could read?

You caught me.
I've been lip-reading this whole time.

The article discusses the gender of the nouns used in the original greek and Hebrew to describe God.

No, the article ran on for a very long time and I didn't bother to read the whole thing. I skimmed about a page and then figure that if you have something to quote, you should quote it.

The article discusses how God -- particularly the Holy Spirit -- is sometimes referred to in the Bible using feminine nouns.

Quote it.

What makes you think that Hell is eternal torment?

Because when i hear the word "Hell" I immediately conjure up images of Club Med


[/sarcasam]

Actually I think there are some Jews that do get into Heaven.

What about atheists?

*shrug* You'd think he could do a better job of teaching them how not to. Then again, he's never cared for logic, he can give us free will and keep us perfect.


Well He does teach us how not to become undone like that. Its called the bible :D

What about atheists?


No clue.. Not my place to say, really.

how could god not be perfect?

Uhhh....Be responsible for this? *making arm gesture with 'this' to signify everything*

Question: Is something that does not exist worthy of worship?

Answer: No. Even empty space is more solid that nothing.

Fact: God has never spoken to anyone through anything but ancient and unverifiablt documents.

Conjecture: God was invented by the creators of these documents. God does not actually exist.

Conclusion: You should sooner worship thin air that you should worship god.

Actually I think there are some Jews that do get into Heaven.

Moses, Abraham, the prophets, etc. (if i remember the catechisim classes right)

Uhhh....Be responsible for this? *making arm gesture with 'this' to signify everything*

perhaps we should be pointing at ourselves? maybe we are to blame?

I liken God to the wind. You can't physically see Him, but you can see His work around you.

Can I feel god's breath on my face too?

No clue.. Not my place to say, really.

Would it seem immoral to you if they were all sent to Hell, simply because they were atheists?

Well He does teach us how not to become undone like that. Its called the bible :D

Yeah, but you think maybe he could do some updating? I mean, even people who DO follow the bible don't agree with what it means.

perhaps we should be pointing at ourselves? maybe weare to blame?

Well, I imagine he should clean up after his messes, no?

Perfection is a quality that is typically attributed to God.
It's not my fault if you never heard of this concept.

I'm familiar with the concept. That the concept exists does not make it true.

Actually I think there are some Jews that do get into Heaven.
Yeah, shame the Muslims, Eastern spiritualists, members of folk religions, homosexuals and sceptics get to boil alive in lakes of sulphur. :rolleyes:

I lean towards viewing people as being equal in death, not just in birth, so I treat the construct itself with contempt. Like I said, if I was religious, I would reject heaven out of principle.

Question: Is something that does not exist worthy of worship?

Answer: No. Even empty space is more solid that nothing.

Fact: God has never spoken to anyone through anything but ancient and unverifiablt documents.

Conjecture: God was invented by the creators of these documents. God does not actually exist.

Conclusion: You should sooner worship thin air that you should worship god.


Prove he does not exist. You can't. there is no way to disprove God. Oh God speaks to me. Not through old document or whatever, but in everyday life.

Like I said, if I was religious, I would reject heaven out of principle.

In my religious moments, I reject Hell on principle.

Which amounts to the same thing.

Well, I imagine he should clean up after his messes, no?

if we screwed up the world, why should god clean it up?

Would it seem immoral to you if they were all sent to Hell, simply because they were atheists?

No. I mean its like saying sending someone that doesn't obey the law to jail, is immoral. But it is immoral for me to sit here and say either way that they are in heaven or in hell. I am not the Judge.

Prove he does not exist. You can't. there is no way to disprove God. Oh God speaks to me. Not through old document or whatever, but in everyday life.

uh-huh...I'd normally say provide any reasonable evidence he exists, but now I'm thinking prove you aren't suffering from a mild psychosis.