NationStates Jolt Archive

Obviously, seeing as giants don't exist anyway.

Maybe he just killed a normal person who was very big, and they changed it to "giant" to make it sound better.

giants of 14 foot? maybe not, but thats not to say there were no men that would have 'seemed' to be giants...

giants of 14 foot? maybe not, but thats not to say there were no men that would have 'seemed' to be giants...

Unless you're an uberman, then you're a moral giant. :D

(sorry, too much philosophy)

which is a big part of translation that so many people do not understand. it took me a while to understand hebrew because each word has multiple meanings. some words could have 10 or so meanings depending on its context. as you said, even if everyone spoke hebrew, we would disaggre on what the author ment when he used certain words or phrases...

That is what frustrates me so, about this blind acceptance of English translations.

When you look at Hebrew, you are looking at a language which has a deal of 'poetry' within the words... there is a certain amount of imagery built INTO the language. Each letter has a symbolic value... a 'story' attached, if you like. So - a word is not JUST a word - it is ALSO a collection of images, a collection of allusions.


People who have NO experience of the langauge might find it hard to understand... let me see if I can explain:

Imagine if, in English "A" was not ONLY a letter, but also the representation of the word 'love', and was specifically tied (through it's design) to the story of Romeo and Juliet.

Imagine if "C" was not only letter, but also representative of the word 'sad', and it's design was inspired by a tale of the seas being formed from tears...

Imagine if the letter "T" was not only a letter, but also represented the word 'death', and was based on a symbolic reference to the tale of the crucifixion.


Now - whenever one constructs a sentence of words, the very words they choose may have additional symbolism. Why use 'cat' instead of 'pet'? Why does the author use a phrase like "the act of the cat" that repeats 'symbols' in different orders?


And this is frustrating because English is a technical language. Our letters represent sounds... and our words carry ONLY the symbolism we connect to them through memory of other times they have been USED... they have no 'value' of their own.

And yet - people try to argue that an English translation can EVER 'mean' what the native text means...

Unless you're an uberman, then you're a moral giant. :D

(sorry, too much philosophy)

lol uberman? :p

lol uberman? :p

Yes, Nieztche's concept of ubermenschean, or uberman/superman. He came up with the concept of the Aryan race (different from the Nazi definition), and said the uberman, a moral giant, would never need to forgive.

Atheists are not born as such. Somebody becomes Atheist (in most cases) when something bad happens in his/her life (one my friend become atheist because his girlfriend died). Atheists doesnt beleave in God, they just think that our earthly life is - earthly, no God,no heaven,no angels etc. But i suppose you know that cos you are Atheist yourself.

I'd argue that we are ALL born 'atheists'... since a baby cannot tell you what he/she believes, and will certainly not 'spontaneously' become a Christian without, at least, being raised into that faith.

Myself - I was raised Christian, but became an Atheist because religion (and MY religion, especially) just stopped making sense to me. Nothing 'bad'. Just skepticism.

Hmmmm... I'm a Christian and I can definitely say my life is so much richer since I asked the Lord to be the leader of my life. So if there were not a God - I have had a much happier and successful life here on earth before becoming food for worms. If there is a God, which I believe with all my heart, I have chosen wisely again.


I wouldn't wish the wrath of God on anyone.

Unless there IS a god, but not the one YOU believed, and he spends the rest of eternity torturing you for daring to believe in some 'idol'...

:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: Uuuugh...I had hope for this one...But you did 'yes' and 'no'. That's never gonna work...

Extrovert also means to turn inside out. I've turned you inside out in my analysis of your source of happiness.

It's a Shakespearian double meaning. Yay!

Either that or I've confused you with the meanings of the words "happiness" and "joy". But oh well. As long as we're both entertained.

Unless there IS a god, but not the one YOU believed, and he spends the rest of eternity torturing you for daring to believe in some 'idol'...

I find it hard to believe that "god", a perfect being, would punish people for believing something else. If he didn't want us to worship anything else, he wouldn't have given us the choice.

I'd consider that a strange avenue to follow... surely, the idea is that Jesus is the ARCHITECT of his destiny... not some kind of bystander or witness to it.

actually he wasn't the architect of his destiny. It was already laid out before Jesus was ever born.

If Jesus needed to be betrayed by Judas - all he has to do is tell him. The idea that Satan WOULD be, or would NEED to be, involved is just outlandish.

Believe what you will.

looking at the story of goliath, it wouldnt be too surprising to think that the slaying of goliath was attributed to david as a way of furthering his reputation as a king. something like acient propoganda...

EXACTLY!

The story of Elhanan mixed-up in the growing mythology of the King.

Is it far fetched to say such things happen? I think not - look at the 'history' of stories that have grown up around a recent 'anti-hero', in the person of Hitler. Look at the number of films or stories that capitalise on 'Hitler's obsession with the supernatural'... everything from "Raiders of the Lost Ark" to "Bloodrayne". How much of this 'obsession' is documented? How much evidence is there, beneath this alternative history?

It is not hard to imagine that, even a hundred years from now, people might be believing that Pol Pot's massacre of the 'educated classes' might have been part of Hitler's policy. Two hundred years from now, it is not hard to believe that Hitler might be thought the architect of Trotsky's death.

Stories just have a way of being 'attracted' to central characters. Even true stories.

Don't like the 'near-human ancestors' idea?

I don't see how it is any LESS appealing than being made of dirt, to be honest...

God mad man. We did not come from animals.

Yest another evasion? What is it you don't like about answering the question that was asked?

I did answer the question. I answered with a Bible Verse. I didn't dodge it at all. It is not my fault that you do not understand the answer.

I find it hard to believe that "god", a perfect being, would punish people for believing something else. If he didn't want us to worship anything else, he wouldn't have given us the choice.

But then, you are assuming we can ever know the will of God?

That is part of the problem with 'organised' religions, I think... they add a degree of 'formality' and 'assurance' to our ideas about what MIGHT be.

What if there IS a god... but his pleasure is torturing humans? Playing with us, like ants under a magnifying glass? Letting us believe in a raft of different 'gods', just so that we will fight each other and devour ourselves?

Why assume that any 'god' MUST be good?

actually he wasn't the architect of his destiny. It was already laid out before Jesus was ever born.


Curious - you seem to be implying that there was a time 'before' Jesus?


Believe what you will.

Or 'don't believe', as the case may be.

On the other hand, you will continue to 'believe what you are told to believe'.

God mad man. We did not come from animals.

Then why are we made of the same stuff as them? Why are we DNA and carbon and water... rather than silicates, like the dirt?

I did answer the question. I answered with a Bible Verse. I didn't dodge it at all. It is not my fault that you do not understand the answer.

On the contrary - you were asked a question, and you quoted a bible verse on a similar subject, but not one that answered the question. Similarly, you ALSO chose not to answer the question.

I find it hard to believe that "god", a perfect being, would punish people for believing something else. If he didn't want us to worship anything else, he wouldn't have given us the choice.

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven abobve or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishimg the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:3-6

God mad man. We did not come from animals.

really? and you know this how?

I'll give the existance of God the benefit of the doubt. However, I have no faith in any god that performs as poorly has He does. So regardless of whether there is one, I certainly don't have faith in God.

Curious - you seem to be implying that there was a time 'before' Jesus?

Yes there was a time before Jesus.

On the other hand, you will continue to 'believe what you are told to believe'.

:rolleyes:

Why assume that any 'god' MUST be good?

because that is what we want...

really? and you know this how?

I already stated how I know.

But then, you are assuming we can ever know the will of God?

That is part of the problem with 'organised' religions, I think... they add a degree of 'formality' and 'assurance' to our ideas about what MIGHT be.

What if there IS a god... but his pleasure is torturing humans? Playing with us, like ants under a magnifying glass? Letting us believe in a raft of different 'gods', just so that we will fight each other and devour ourselves?

Why assume that any 'god' MUST be good?

Well, I AM making that statement under the assumption of the Christian "perfect" god, which portrays him as putting lots of hope in humanity and not very manipulative. But if we're just god's game of sort, then personally, I wouldn't care. Let god be evil or good, and whether we know his intentions/nature does not really help us, because in the end, we decide whether we want to worship him or not. All of the above under the circumstances that god is real. which he isn't...

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Good advice. You should take it. Life is not always about scoring points on other people just to bolster your own sense of self-worth. At least, it shouldn't be.

Everybody makes mistakes.
How ironic. You are judging me on questions that I posed to Corneliu.

Jeremiah 5

1Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.

There is no ego in trying to help each other along the path.

On the contrary - you were asked a question, and you quoted a bible verse on a similar subject, but not one that answered the question. Similarly, you ALSO chose not to answer the question.

Again! I did answer the question. You did not understand the answer.

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven abobve or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishimg the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:3-6

those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (Koran 48:13)...

see, i can do it too...

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven abobve or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishimg the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:3-6

Then God is VERY insecure. Why doesn't he just smite us and make a new race to worship him then, assuming he needs worship in the first place, which he REALLY doesn't need to survive. Besides, that brings me back to my original question: why allow humans the choice to worship other things when you know you don't want them to?

Also, just a personal question. What if tomorrow, you found out that your god was actually false, and that Christianity was the biggest con in the history of humanity? Would you still believe all this?

those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" (Koran 48:13)...

see, i can do it too...

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son to die for us for whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

because that is what we want...

How does what we want affect the deity in any way?

Also, just a personal question. What if tomorrow, you found out that your god was actually false, and that Christianity was the biggest con in the history of humanity? Would you still believe all this?

Nice hypothetical and one steeped in no facts whatsoever. Because of this, I shall not answer it for it is a trick question.

Then God is VERY insecure. Why doesn't he just smite us and make a new race to worship him then, assuming he needs worship in the first place, which he REALLY doesn't need to survive. Besides, that brings me back to my original question: why allow humans the choice to worship other things when you know you don't want them to?

Also, just a personal question. What if tomorrow, you found out that your god was actually false, and that Christianity was the biggest con in the history of humanity? Would you still believe all this?
They cling to the last vestiges of their shattered faith in the face of masses of scientific evidence. You think a voice from the heavens will loosen their grip?

How does what we want affect the deity in any way?

Want to hear God laugh? Tell Him your plans.

Nice hypothetical and one steeped in no facts whatsoever. Because of this, I shall not answer it for it is a trick question.
So basically, "I can't think of what I would do if I was wrong. I won't answer. That will reaffirm my faith!"

Besides, that brings me back to my original question: why allow humans the choice to worship other things when you know you don't want them to?

that would eliminate sincerety and free will. what would be better, to have someone worship you because they have no other choice, or someone to worship you because they love you?

So basically, "I can't think of what I would do if I was wrong. I won't answer. That will reaffirm my faith!"

Its a hypothetical question designed to draw me into a hypothetical argument. Sorry but I will not fall for it.

How does what we want affect the deity in any way?

im not saying it does. im saying that our beliefs about god being perfect and good are the way they are because we want it to be. who wants a god that punishes us for fun?

Its a hypothetical question designed to draw me into a hypothetical argument. Sorry but I will not fall for it.
So... Invisible man in the sky giving commands = real, but the chance that you might be wrong is merely hypothetical?

Do you really exist?

So... Invisible man in the sky giving commands = real, but the chance that you might be wrong is merely hypothetical?

Do you really exist?

I know I am not wrong.

That is what frustrates me so, about this blind acceptance of English translations.

When you look at Hebrew, you are looking at a language which has a deal of 'poetry' within the words... there is a certain amount of imagery built INTO the language. Each letter has a symbolic value... a 'story' attached, if you like. So - a word is not JUST a word - it is ALSO a collection of images, a collection of allusions.


People who have NO experience of the langauge might find it hard to understand... let me see if I can explain:

Imagine if, in English "A" was not ONLY a letter, but also the representation of the word 'love', and was specifically tied (through it's design) to the story of Romeo and Juliet.

Imagine if "C" was not only letter, but also representative of the word 'sad', and it's design was inspired by a tale of the seas being formed from tears...

Imagine if the letter "T" was not only a letter, but also represented the word 'death', and was based on a symbolic reference to the tale of the crucifixion.


Now - whenever one constructs a sentence of words, the very words they choose may have additional symbolism. Why use 'cat' instead of 'pet'? Why does the author use a phrase like "the act of the cat" that repeats 'symbols' in different orders?


And this is frustrating because English is a technical language. Our letters represent sounds... and our words carry ONLY the symbolism we connect to them through memory of other times they have been USED... they have no 'value' of their own.

And yet - people try to argue that an English translation can EVER 'mean' what the native text means...

once again grave, you have nailed it right on the head. i did at one time have a link to an online article about reading hebrew poetry, but i cant seem to find it. ill look for it, because i think you would enjoy reading it...

Nice hypothetical and one steeped in no facts whatsoever. Because of this, I shall not answer it for it is a trick question.

That was not meant to be a trick question. Also, why are you claiming my question has no facts when there are no facts to support your own religion? That was a serious question not designed to trick you. I was just curious whether you have even an inch of doubt if you might be wrong. And if you discovered you were, what would you do?

For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son to die for us for whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

how are any of your bible verses any differnt/better from the verses in the koran?

I know I am not wrong.
How? How can you have blind faith without any proof?

How? How can you have blind faith without any proof?

Want to know something? I know there's a higher power. My father should not be alive today.

that would eliminate sincerety and free will. what would be better, to have someone worship you because they have no other choice, or someone to worship you because they love you?

But without free choice, we would not know whether we love Him or not. He is just there, being a part of our lives that is essential. And it wouldn't matter if we loved him or not. We do not decide whether we love water or not, even though we might love it or hate it. It's an essential part of survival, so even if we didn't love it, we would still need it, and I don't see anybody drinking water grudgingly around.

Want to know something? I know there's a higher power. My father should not be alive today.
Many people should not be alive today. Many more people should not be dead today. Death comes early for some, late for others. Extension of life does not prove existance of a kind, supernatural and conscious guiding force any more than a shortened life proves a malicious, supernatural and conscious guiding force

im not saying it does. im saying that our beliefs about god being perfect and good are the way they are because we want it to be. who wants a god that punishes us for fun?

The Greeks, apparently. Who's to say our god doesn't think of us as a game to enjoy? Only men are egotistical enough to create god in their own image.

Want to know something? I know there's a higher power. My father should not be alive today.
so god changed the rules of the universe for your dad but just sat there and let il ruffino's friend die?

heartwarming

As much as it surprises me that I'm backing him up on this stuff, what does that stuff have to do with a belief in God? The idea that God sends good people to hell for lack of belief and the idea that the "righteous" can "punish" the "wicked" are not far removed, and can be held in perfect synchronisation, regardless of how poorly they otherwise reflect on reality.
Anyone can have a belief in God. There are people who have a belief in God but revile Him and hate Him.

Only God can punish the "wicked". Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord. But how many men on earth seek revenge, complete with blood lust? Is this God's will I ask?

Many people should not be alive today. Many more people should not be dead today. Death comes early for some, late for others. Extension of life does not prove existance of a kind, supernatural and conscious guiding force any more than a shortened life proves a malicious, supernatural and conscious guiding force

Yea well my father's car was hit by an 18 wheeler on a bridge when we lived in Missouri. There was no way he should've survived the crash. Even the cop that arrived on the scene first called for the coroner and was shocked when my father walked away from the accident without a scratch. Not even a cut.

Yea. I know there is a God.

Yes there was a time before Jesus.

And you call yourself a Christian?

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

If you are a Christian, and you accept scripture as true, inerrant and divinely inspired - then you have to accept that 'Jesus' has always existed.

Anyone can have a belief in God. There are people who have a belief in God but revile Him and hate Him.

Only God can punish the "wicked". Revenge is mine sayeth the Lord. But how many men on earth seek revenge, complete with blood lust? Is this God's will I ask?
I've noticed the Lord sayeth whatever people quoting him want him to sayeth.

I already stated how I know.

You are mistaking what you have READ and accepted, for what you, personally, KNOW.

so god changed the rules of the universe for your dad but just sat there and let il ruffino's friend die?

heartwarming

If it was her time to go, it was her time to go. Its still sad to see anyone die.

Want to know something? I know there's a higher power. My father should not be alive today.

How do you know he didn't overcome odds and chances out of sheer strength? Maybe it was the power of his own mind that pulled him through. It was his utter faith, and maybe others' utter faith, that made it possible. It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe it. Miracles don't only happen to Christians. They happen to Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and almost all other religions in the world. Maybe god is just the human mind at its most powerful.

The Greeks, apparently. Who's to say our god doesn't think of us as a game to enjoy? Only men are egotistical enough to create god in their own image.

personally, i like the greek gods. never a dull moment...:p

Again! I did answer the question. You did not understand the answer.

Let us assume your version is the truth.

Explain HOW your 'answer' actually ANSWERED the question that was asked?

I'm calling you on it. Put up, or shut up.

If it was her time to go, it was her time to go. Its still sad to see anyone die.
ahhh so god actively decided to kill her

niiiice

And you call yourself a Christian?

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

If you are a Christian, and you accept scripture as true, inerrant and divinely inspired - then you have to accept that 'Jesus' has always existed.

That is what John 1:1 says but now how does that prove that Jesus always existed?

Yea well my father's car was hit by an 18 wheeler on a bridge when we lived in Missouri. There was no way he should've survived the crash. Even the cop that arrived on the scene first called for the coroner and was shocked when my father walked away from the accident without a scratch. Not even a cut.

Yea. I know there is a God.
Your father is a very lucky man. Look at it this way: the world is a bell curve. most people will get about or close to what is expected. A few will be extraordinarily lucky. An opposite few will be extraordinarily unlucky. For every success story of a lucky break (such as your father's) there is one of an unlucky break of magnitude just as great.

Or:
Your father was extremely unlucky to have his car hit by an 18 wheeler. His luck balanced out with him escaping unharmed. Nature is always in balance. It is only unbalanced when humans intentionally swing it one way or another.

You are mistaking what you have READ and accepted, for what you, personally, KNOW.

I already stated it.

I've noticed the Lord sayeth whatever people quoting him want him to sayeth.

This is going into my currently non-existent sig. :D

Nice hypothetical and one steeped in no facts whatsoever. Because of this, I shall not answer it for it is a trick question.

Another evasion.

I find it hard to accept that your faith can be SO weak, it cannot stand up to scrutiny.

How can you claim that the hypothetical is 'steeped in no facts'? There are more religions than just Christianity, and most of the other ones say that YOUR one is a lie.

Not EVERY religion can be literally true, and more say Christianity is false, than say Christianity is true - so, logically - the safest assumption MUST be that Christianity is a 'big con'.

I notice you wriggle out of ANY question that actually brings your 'religion' into the light, to be assessed, preferring to hide behind (often irrelevent) quotations, or just flat out hiding.

in answere to the original question:

the argument that your friend's death is proof against a loving god is not not a very strong one. if you believe the christian/jewish/arabic doctrin that God is benevolent and those who live a ritious life will be rewarded in the afterlife than death at the end of a relativly breaf life that was filled with hardship is not curelty towards your friend. after all if she was a good person and you believ christian docteran than you should have no doubt that she is now in heven/eden/paradice.


personaly i believe there are beings/forces/entities with power beyond that of what humans curently posess. but i also believ that humans have far more capability than we are aware of. one thing i don't believe is that there is a single all powerfull largely human-like (in form and or psycology) being that has direct influence over day to day events (or even events on a geological or cosmic time scale).

i also think that becomming myred in the symbols and rituals of a perticular religion, is just plain gulability, and that most people who claim to be religios are either lying to themselves or are just plain stupid. after all most religious people i know don't understand their own religion's mythology and traditions, and can't even answere simple questions about why they do the things they do.

anyway i'm going to cut this rant here, becuase it's already longer than i'd hoped.

I've noticed the Lord sayeth whatever people quoting him want him to sayeth.
That would be your understanding and that is okay. The only difference is that it probably means a lot more to me than you?

Do you believe in God?

If yes, do you have faith in God?

This is going into my currently non-existent sig. :D

i think you should put me into your sig...

ahhh so god actively decided to kill her

niiiice

God didn't actively kill her. It was just her time to go.

That is what John 1:1 says but now how does that prove that Jesus always existed?

I thought you said you've read the Bible?

Seriously, dude... you are getting schooled here, by an Atheist... that just doesn't look good.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

John 1:14-5 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me ..."

It's all there... IF you accept your Bible as true and inerrant.

How can you call yourself Christian, and NOT know this?

That would be your understanding and that is okay. The only difference is that it probably means a lot more to me than you?

Do you believe in God?

If yes, do you have faith in God?
I meant no offense. Simply an observation. A buddy of mine (not religious) can dig up quotes supporting almost anything in the bible.

Yes, I believe in God on some level.

Faith? Not so much. If there is a God, He's doing a pretty bad job, I think. I can't hope but wonder why a kind and righteous God would allow the horrors of the 20th century. An evil God wouldn't have allowed all the goodness. That leaves a neutral God. Can you have faith in neutrality?

*snip*

Of course I know it Grave_n_idle.

God didn't actively kill her. It was just her time to go.
whatever "it was her time to go" means

Do you believe in God?
I believe in a God...
If yes, do you have faith in God?
Does not compute. My God does not permit it.

whatever "it was her time to go" means


It means that shit happens, but by pretending there is a God we don't have to feel too bad when shit happens to us.

Of course I know it Grave_n_idle.

Then what... you were bearing false witness, earlier?

I believe, my friend... that you have been caught... and that, rather than admit it, you are again looking for some way to wriggle out of it.

I find it hard to have respect for a version of a religion that calls for hellfire and damnation on the non-believer, but that can't manage the courage of it's own convictions...

personally, i like the greek gods. never a dull moment...:p

Oh yeah, especially the hedonists, right? I'll bet you have an attachment to Epicurrus. ;)

Then what... you were bearing false witness, earlier?

Nope. That would be a violation of the 10 commandments if I did that.

I believe, my friend... that you have been caught... and that, rather than admit it, you are again looking for some way to wriggle out of it.

:rolleyes:

I find it hard to have respect for a version of a religion that calls for hellfire and damnation on the non-believer, but that can't manage the courage of it's own convictions...

Believe what you will. I really do not care.

It means that shit happens, but by pretending there is a God we don't have to feel too bad when shit happens to us.
oh phew

i thought he meant that god had a plan for all of us and that for some people it means that nice women die just as they get their lives staightened out and start enjoying it. or that he WANTS 5 year olds to die of leukemia. or that someones multiple sclerosis is just his way of teaching them a life lesson.

Seriously, dude... you are getting schooled here, by an Atheist... that just doesn't look good.
What is your purpose for posting in this thread?

I am reading the Bible as I type.
Oh lordie no :eek:
This can only end in tears. :(

I dont think theres an exact god as in heaven and hell n all the rubbish, but there is something there tho
people always seem to blame "god" for deaths but hey its all part of life otherwise wouldnt the world be a bit overcrowded
No, we finally would have moved into cannibal factions.

Oh yeah, especially the hedonists, right? I'll bet you have an attachment to Epicurrus. ;)

*epicurus... :p

*epicurus... :p
:eek:

That's it, you're leaving the sig! :p

more than likely a copiest error. which means the bible has mistakes...
Inerrant?!?

Perhaps, "divinely-inspired mistakes."
You know, the kind that "god" likes to interject to keep the wise confounded :rolleyes:

what a beautiful and inspiring faith it is that would have 5.5 billion people alive today doomed to eternal torment through no fault of their own.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10841489&postcount=1160
That whole post is sigworthy. *bows*

:eek:

That's it, you're leaving the sig! :p

:eek: nooooooooo!

ill be good, i promise...

Inerrant?!?

Perhaps, "divinely-inspired mistakes."
You know, the kind that "god" likes to interject to keep the wise confounded :rolleyes:

:p your humor kills me...

That whole post is sigworthy. *bows*
thank you!

*blushes*

They were born from their near-human ancestors.
"Lucy in Olduvai, with diamonds ...." :D



















*retch*

Inerrant?!?

Perhaps, "divinely-inspired mistakes."
You know, the kind that "god" likes to interject to keep the wise confounded :rolleyes:

you know that the original translation of the catholic bible from greek to latin contained errors that we proclaimed to be divinely inspired eh?

:eek: nooooooooo!

ill be good, i promise...

You'd better be

...bitch! :p

you know that the original translation of the catholic bible from greek to latin contained errors that we proclaimed to be divinely inspired eh?
Like the 8-legged grashoppers and locusts?

you know that the original translation of the catholic bible from greek to latin contained errors that we proclaimed to be divinely inspired eh?
Heh. I think the whole writing down errant thoughts of supposedly divinely-inspired beings and making several altered compendia through the ages could be construed as either a massive error or, more likely, a massive conspiracy.

Now the FSM on the other hand ... ;)

:p your humor kills me...
I hope not, certainly! You need to be sanctified first! Stick around the thread a little longer and someone will change your soul! :D

thank you!

*blushes*
You are absolutely and unsarcastically welcome. It was a most excellent turn of phrase.

Like the 8-legged grashoppers and locusts?
noooo i think that was in the original

if its in the bible at all.....

now that i think about it, i have NO idea what kind of errors they were, just that they existed.

I hope not, certainly! You need to be sanctified first! Stick around the thread a little longer and someone will change your soul! :D

dont worry, the presence of christians has washed away my sins...

dont worry, the presence of christians has washed away my sins...
ooooo saved by divine spill over!

is that related to the mormon practice of being saved by proxy?

Like the 8-legged grashoppers and locusts?

What about the rivers of blood, the infestation of frogs, the parting of the red sea, and the deaths of first born sons?

Is there a website where I can find a short summary of the bible? I know the major events, but everything else is foggy. Where do I go to become enlightened out of personal interest?

Is this thread evolving into Choose Wisely part deux? :p

noooo i think that was in the original

if its in the bible at all.....

now that i think about it, i have NO idea what kind of errors they were, just that they existed.
I seem to recall "616" being mistranslated to "666" from Greek to Latin/English. There was an article somewhere about it. I can't find it.

Is this thread evolving into Choose Wisely part deux? :p

no no, of course not. I just think it was getting too serious in some parts. It will never be able to with you serious clowns hanging around. SI and I are just here for some much-needed comic relief. :D

ooooo saved by divine spill over!

is that related to the mormon practice of being saved by proxy?


sure, plus i have bought some indulgences. you know, just in case...

Is this thread evolving into Choose Wisely part deux? :p
did corneliu ever answer your question about repudiating his stances on prisoners of war?

Jesus! I can't beleave my own eyes! So many atheists! No wonder western civilization is decaying! When something bad happens - it's because of God, but when something good happens - its because us! I read something about God being male or female, those who write this don't understand an single thing about God and Religion. If you want to be taken seriously read the Bible at least. Blasphemy!
Hey, you gonna be around a while? Your input might come in useful on a few current and future threads.
:fluffle:

Is this thread evolving into Choose Wisely part deux? :p

its all ladamesansmerci's fault. wherever she goes, spam follows...

;)

sure, plus i have bought some indulgences. you know, just in case...
oooooooo now that IS thoughtful! we could have a very good time as long as we use "protection"

I seem to recall "616" being mistranslated to "666" from Greek to Latin/English. There was an article somewhere about it. I can't find it.

wiki has a little about it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast

edit: link fixed...

If it was her time to go, it was her time to go. Its still sad to see anyone die.

So, when others die, its just their time.

When your father dies or doesn't die, its a matter of divine intervention.

Again, you see what you want to see.

no no, of course not. I just think it was getting too serious in some parts. It will never be able to with you serious clowns hanging around. SI and I are just here for some much-needed comic relief. :D
Ya want comic relief huh? INTERMISSION TIME:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40850000/jpg/_40850119_mcfly_300.jpg

Is this thread evolving into Choose Wisely part deux? :p
You know it always had the potential.
Ill Ruffino's the OP'r.

BTW, CanuckHeaven, did you see this news?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1762310,00.html
(1,000 secret CIA flights revealed )

did corneliu ever answer your question about repudiating his stances on prisoners of war?
Of course not. :D

So, when others die, its just their time.

When your father dies or doesn't die, its a matter of divine intervention.

Again, you see what you want to see.

oh brother. Talk about taking things out of context.

its all ladamesansmerci's fault. wherever she goes, spam follows...

;)

Actually, I was on topic until you told me to put you in my sig. Then everything fell apart. So technically, this was your fault.

You know it always had the potential.
Ill Ruffino's the OP'r.

BTW, CanuckHeaven, did you see this news?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1762310,00.html
(1,000 secret CIA flights revealed )
Well then he probably won't mind a little side step? :)

oh brother. Talk about taking things out of context.

Would you like me to go back and present your own quotes?

If no-one believed in God, no-one would pass off our problems as his doing. Problem solved.
Isn't that character recurrent on Family Circus?

Of course not. :D

Red cross has no evidence of torture. All there is is allegations made by prisoners at Gitmo. Abu Ghraib I have already denounced more times than I can count on my hands.

Actually, I was on topic until you told me to put you in my sig. Then everything fell apart. So technically, this was your fault.

hey hey hey, lets not play the blame game ok? :D

Would you like me to go back and present your own quotes?

It wasn't my father's time to go in 1990.

Do I believe in God? Yes.

Do I believe in God as depicted in the Bible, the Koran, or any psychotic cult leader's memoirs? No.

Well then he probably won't mind a little side step? :)
At this point ?
He's probably drunk. :D

I'd considered beginning a new thread with the contrast from the prior European report on the flights (the one saying there "wasn't any evidence") but i'd have to dig a little. But it's certainly worth a thread at some point.

It wasn't my father's time to go in 1990.

And that infers something about God, but the deaths of others doesn't?

Who allots the "time" you refer to?

its all ladamesansmerci's fault. wherever she goes, spam follows...

;)
We should nickname her LaDame du Spam?

hey hey hey, lets not play the blame game ok? :D
Yeah, we need that kind of moxy on the political threads!
(strangely enough, the religious threads haven't *YET* completely traversed the fine line into political synonymy)
... but stay tuned. :(

We should nickname her LaDame du Spam?

haha, thats perfect...

You know it always had the potential.
Ill Ruffino's the OP'r.

BTW, CanuckHeaven, did you see this news?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1762310,00.html
(1,000 secret CIA flights revealed )

Oh yeah, that. I had no idea there would be that many!

And that infers something about God, but the deaths of others doesn't?

Uhh I just said that it was her time to go. If it wasn't her time to go, she would still be alive.

Who allots the "time" you refer to?

God.

We should nickname her LaDame du Spam?

O_O

Would you guys really want to go through that much trouble of typing in the full thing? It would be awefully long for a name...:p

let me be succinct: there is God, but there is not a god.

You know it always had the potential.
Ill Ruffino's the OP'r.

BTW, CanuckHeaven, did you see this news?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1762310,00.html
(1,000 secret CIA flights revealed )
That is some serious shit going on there. Just imagine what is going on that we know nothing of? Scary huh?

Uhh I just said that it was her time to go. If it wasn't her time to go, she would still be alive.


Yet you said your father "should not be alive". Why didn't he go at his time?



God.

So, you say God decides when its your time to go. And people die when its their time.

Yet earlier, you said God didn't kill deliberately. Does he choose using a dartboard or something, so he can still call it accidental?

At this point ?
He's probably drunk. :D

I'd considered beginning a new thread with the contrast from the prior European report on the flights (the one saying there "wasn't any evidence") but i'd have to dig a little. But it's certainly worth a thread at some point.

Ruffy? Drunk? NEVER! :eek::p

O_O

Would you guys really want to go through that much trouble of typing in the full thing? It would be awefully long for a name...:p
All we would have to do is Ctrl C and Ctrl V :p

O_O

Would you guys really want to go through that much trouble of typing in the full thing? It would be awefully long for a name...:p

it has a nice ring to it...

let me be succinct: there is God, but there is not a god.

So you're a pantheist?

Yet you said your father "should not be alive". Why didn't he go at his time?

If you had seen the car my friend, you would be asking why didn't he die too. Even the cops were amazed he walked away without 1 single scratch.

So, you say God decides when its your time to go. And people die when its their time.

Yet earlier, you said God didn't kill deliberately. Does he choose using a dartboard or something, so he can still call it accidental?

We all have a set time on this planet. When that time is up, we die.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Good advice. You should take it. Life is not always about scoring points on other people just to bolster your own sense of self-worth. At least, it shouldn't be.

Everybody makes mistakes.
Even persistent right-wingers.

EDIT - Whoop, especially persistent right-wingers. Perhaps why they're so closely linked with a need for forgiveness from unprovable, invisible beings that like to smite their children? You know, the connection to the power trip AND the infantile behaviour and all.

Ruffy? Drunk? NEVER! :eek::p
Well, either by imbibable toxicants or the effervescent omnipresence of your titillating grace!

All we would have to do is Ctrl C and Ctrl V :p

cut n paste? brilliant! http://www.mustangmods.com/data/10900/brilliant.jpg

(i hope you have seen that commerical)

Yet you said your father "should not be alive". Why didn't he go at his time?

So, you say God decides when its your time to go. And people die when its their time.

Yet earlier, you said God didn't kill deliberately. Does he choose using a dartboard or something, so he can still call it accidental?
Perhaps you could just put it all down to everything happens for a reason and it is up to us to figure out the reason.

All we would have to do is Ctrl C and Ctrl V :p

If you're keeping my name on Ctrl C, then I'd be flattered enough to let you call me anything! :eek:

If you had seen the car my friend, you would be asking why didn't he die too. Even the cops were amazed he walked away without 1 single scratch.



We all have a set time on this planet. When that time is up, we die.

maybe he was just lucky?

Uhh I just said that it was her time to go. If it wasn't her time to go, she would still be alive.



God.
oh so god DID kill her and save your dad. i could have sworn you denied that

1990 was 16 years ago. i dont think you could possibly know the details of what happened to your dad that day, just what you have heard repeated many times over the years.

If you had seen the car my friend, you would be asking why didn't he die too. Even the cops were amazed he walked away without 1 single scratch.

Glad your dad is fine, but things like that happen. If God decided my time is next week, and I get drunk and slip off a building tonight, I could well die outside your God's timeline, based on my own choices and behaviour.


We all have a set time on this planet. When that time is up, we die.

God didn't actively kill her. It was just her time to go.

So, we have a time, which you say is set by God, and we all die at that time God sets, at a time of his choosing, but God doesn't actively kill...

He saves your dad and lets others die, based on his calendar? You may find as you experience more of life, that our time of death is based on actuarial combinations of behaviour and luck...

That is some serious shit going on there. Just imagine what is going on that we know nothing of? Scary huh?
THIS is what should be associated with the Bush administration until each one of his cronies kicks the bucket. And long past time they exited United States influence. :mad:

cut n paste? brilliant! http://www.mustangmods.com/data/10900/brilliant.jpg

(i hope you have seen that commerical)
Can't say that I have but it sure looks interesting. :cool:

it has a nice ring to it...

It's the damned rhyme, isn't it?

La Dame du spam, du ham, du clam, du exam, du jam, du scam, du sham, du slam, du lamb, du damn...

Okay, i'll stop now. This is way too much fun...

Perhaps you could just put it all down to everything happens for a reason and it is up to us to figure out the reason.

I think you'll find that car accidents happen for reasons more closely related to conservation of momentum, driver behaviour, weather and surface conditions, and coefficients of rolling, kinetic, and static friction.

Glad your dad is fine, but things like that happen. If God decided my time is next week, and I get drunk and slip off a building tonight, I could well die outside your God's timeline, based on my own choices and behaviour.
Absolutely!! That is where free will comes in. Either that or to display the evils of over indulgence?

Can't say that I have but it sure looks interesting. :cool:

here ya go... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqO0Q_zNKA&search=brilliant

Of course there is a GOD! It is your duty to serve him. IF you do not you will end up in hell
Hey, do you like to hang out with that German flag-regalia poster from a few pages back?

Absolutely!! That is where free will comes in. Either that or to display the evils of over indulgence?

I think you'll find the idea of free will is difficult to reconcile with Corneliu's belief in "we have a time of god's choosing".

I also doubt any God is using death as a means to reward good or punish evil, at least not in a daily context...if It is, its accuracy may not be all that great.

It's the damned rhyme, isn't it?

La Dame du spam, du ham, du clam, du exam, du jam, du scam, du sham, du slam, du lamb, du damn...

Okay, i'll stop now. This is way too much fun...
You go girl....enjoy!! :D

du cram
du ram
du cam
du dram
du glam
du gam
du pam
du sam
du slam :cool:

I think you'll find the idea of free will is difficult to reconcile with Corneliu's belief in "we have a time of god's choosing".
Well, I don't exactly agree with everything he says. :p

I also doubt any God is using death as a means to reward good or punish evil, at least not in a daily context...if It is, its accuracy may not be all that great.
Since you have doubts, that means that you are not sure and with that I can concur.

It's the damned rhyme, isn't it?

La Dame du spam, du ham, du clam, du exam, du jam, du scam, du sham, du slam, du lamb, du damn...

Okay, i'll stop now. This is way too much fun...

things are always more fun when you can rhyme...

*resists the urge to write "teehee."*

here ya go... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WqO0Q_zNKA&search=brilliant
Definitely brilliant!! :cool:

Why assume that any 'god' MUST be good?
(Other than the term ;) )
Alas, a great measure of them were pricks. Just amalgamated into the OT.

Well, I don't exactly agree with everything he says. :p


Since you have doubts, that means that you are not sure and with that I can concur.

I'm just very leary of the Pulp Fiction religious conversion...you know, "the bullets didn't hit us, so God is real" or "my dad should've died in that wreck, so..."


I use the term "doubt" to imply that I find something implausible enough to dismiss it until I see some better evidence.

In that sense, I have no doubts about my atheism. There may be some God or Gods, and if they designated the universal principals, it may be said that I'm examing what could conceivably be their work (or the work of otherdimensional aliens), but I don't see any more point in praying than in trying to send messages to the aliens.

In that sense, I have no doubts about my atheism. There may be some God or Gods, and if they designated the universal principals, it may be said that I'm examing what could conceivably be their work (or the work of otherdimensional aliens), but I don't see any more point in praying than in trying to send messages to the aliens.
Just as I have no doubts about my beliefs. We all make choices in life and my choice is different than yours. Thats okay.

Prayer has helped me immensely in dealing with my demons, so I don't think I will be giving them up anytime soon.

I use the term "doubt" to imply that I find something implausible enough to dismiss it until I see some better evidence.
Sometimes we look in all the wrong places for the answers that we need. Sometimes the evidence is staring us in the face and we fail to see it.
Sometimes we find a peace that we never thought we could find.

Sometimes we look in all the wrong places for the answers that we need. Sometimes the evidence is staring us in the face and we fail to see it.
Sometimes we find a peace that we never thought we could find.

Yes, that "peace" leads people to Jesus, Mohammed, Scientology, Wicca, all kinds of answers that suit their needs.

Fortunately, I have no needs that require blood sacrifice or supernatural beings.

oh so god DID kill her and save your dad. i could have sworn you denied that

1990 was 16 years ago. i dont think you could possibly know the details of what happened to your dad that day, just what you have heard repeated many times over the years.

Oh I most definitely remember it.

I think you'll find that car accidents happen for reasons more closely related to conservation of momentum, driver behaviour, weather and surface conditions, and coefficients of rolling, kinetic, and static friction.

yep.

yep.

So, you say yep, but earlier, you said that your father should be dead and you have proof of God because he isn't, and people die according to a time chosen by god.

So, which is it?

Yes, that "peace" leads people to Jesus, Mohammed, Scientology, Wicca, all kinds of answers that suit their needs.
This is true. It is a simple matter of preference and what one believes.

Fortunately, I have no needs that require blood sacrifice or supernatural beings.
Well, you are not entirely close minded, and I don't mean that in a derogatory manner. You have used words such as "doubt" and "there may be". There may be a day that you see the "evidence" that you seek. There may be a day that your needs will change. I know that is possible. If you don't, then so be it.

im losing someone to breast cancer myself, and watching what it does to her tears me up inside...sh'es ot really a person anymore, her eyes are always vacant...if there was a god, why would it do this or alow this to happen to someone...but in all honesty, im a recovering catholic, i dont really have a say in this matter, im so sick fo the question "will you give your life to jesus" from my family, i've becme agnostic, i dont have th time or pacience to find out if theres a god or not if there is, then they're not a very fair god, if there isnt...oh well

So, you say yep, but earlier, you said that your father should be dead and you have proof of God because he isn't, and people die according to a time chosen by god.

So, which is it?

If you had seen the car, you would know why I'm saying he shouldn't have survived. I saw the car. *shudders at the memory*

If you had seen the car, you would know why I'm saying he shouldn't have survived. I saw the car. *shudders at the memory*

Get some therapy, please, and stop capitalizing on a potential tragedy to try to pull attention away from your own double standards.

You clearly inferred that God somehow prevented your Dad from dying and that was some kind of basis for your faith.

Then you claimed God doesn't cause us to die, but later admitted that you think God does in fact choose the time we die (in your belief system).

Don't say God put his hands on your father's car wreck and then turn around and say "yep" when somebody else explains more plausible factors.

If you want to play drama queen, lets go visit a hospice and you can explain your views to people looking at actual death.

It is now time to head off to bed and pray. Sleep well all. :)

*snip*

Oh get off your high horse. I'm not buyin it. I honestly do not care what you think. I really don't.

I believe in God and I will follow His commandments.

I know that God is real even if you don't. I will pray that you come to know God.

As to looking at people who are dying, I have. I watched my grandmother die in 2003. Spring no less. Shortly after my 1st year here at the University I currently attend. I also just recently lost my grandfather in March and before that my Aunt Sharon in November.

It is now time to head off to bed and pray. Sleep well all. :)

You too, have a good rest.

It is now time to head off to bed and pray. Sleep well all. :)

Sleep well CH. May God be with you.

Oh get off your high horse. I'm not buyin it. I honestly do not care what you think. I really don't.

I believe in God and I will follow His commandments.

I know that God is real even if you don't. I will pray that you come to know God.

As to looking at people who are dying, I have. I watched my grandmother die in 2003. Spring no less. Shortly after my 1st year here at the University I currently attend. I also just recently lost my grandfather in March and before that my Aunt Sharon in November.

Well, just their time and all, right?

Of course you don't care. Your God calls on you to love, which includes caring. Why should you start practicing what you preach now?

Its much easier for you to dodge, evade, and just robotically restate your own beliefs, over and over again.

You've backpedaled over yourself so many times, I wouldn't want you praying to some God on my behalf. I'd rather have somebody with some credibility, thanks.

Well, just their time and all, right?

Yes it was. Didn't make the pain of their deaths any less real and I cried for a few days even after they were buried.

Of course you don't care. Your God calls on you to love, which includes caring. Why should you start practicing what you preach now?

Always do. I help those in need and pray for those that I cannot help. If I didn't care, I wouldn't be doing none of these things.

Its much easier for you to dodge, evade, and just robotically restate your own beliefs, over and over again.

As opposed to those who criticize those same beliefs robotically?

You've backpedaled over yourself so many times, I wouldn't want you praying to some God on my behalf. I'd rather have somebody with some credibility, thanks.

Never backpedaled once.

Never backpedaled once.

Your posts prove otherwise, but we'll let others decide when they go back and read it.

Of course, several things you just dodged completely.

Like, you say we die when God chooses...is that compatible with free will?

If God chooses our time, and we die at that chosen time, how can you then turn around and say "yep" when some means of dying aren't "chosen", but a function of naturally occuring conditions?

Hmmmm... people die. I never remember reading anywhere in the Bible where it promises those who believe in God will not die or face difficult times.



"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance. Perserverance must finish it's work so that you may be mature, and complete, not lacking anything." James 1:2-4

Faith in God offers the believer a peace during difficult times. Sometimes a misunderstanding about God causes people to blame God for difficulties in this world.

I don't know about any of you, but if I created something out of clay and it stood up on the table and started pointing it's finger at me and cursing my name... that's something I would crush. I cannot fathom thinking of anything other than every day of life we have is a gift from God. It would be more than fair for God to take me out because I've hurt people and done alot of things I'm not proud of. I trust that God's grace is bigger than my disgrace.

If someone I loved dearly suddenly died, I might get upset at God - I don't know. But I know that this is not heaven here. I'm not going to blame God for this world not being heaven. God evidently saw free will as a good idea and gave you all the choice to have faith in Him or not. But I have to admit some of the things I've read on here characterizing Christianity and the Bible and God is just not a fair characterization. I sense some of it may be because some of you may be hurting because of the topic this thread brings up to real life situations. I would rather not argue the existence of God in the midst of your hurts. It sucks that some of your loved ones have died or are suffering through terrible stuff that some of you have described. I feel really badly that some of you have suffered through what you have.

As an example - I believe the 'Cain and Abel' and 'Esau and Jabob' stories are probably actually the SAME story, told by different people at different times... and just assimilated into the whole text as different accounts, when the scripture was first collected.

Have you ever read Ishmael and My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? ((If not, you should)) The main character presents a rather interesting and very believable view of the Cain and Abel story and what it might represent.

It would kind of lead me to disagree with you on them being the same story, if the interpretation presented in the books is correct.

Hmmmm... people die. I never remember reading anywhere in the Bible where it promises those who believe in God will not die or face difficult times.
*snip.

The death thing came up because Corneliu referenced how his father "should be dead, but isn't" as some kind of support for his position. He further stated that God chooses when people die.

I just find that idea highly inconsistent with free will.

Frankly, I think people die because of a combiation of behaviour and chance. Whether its anybody's fault depends on the situation, but I doubt its ever God's, particularly since I don't think there is one.

God mad man. We did not come from animals.

The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.

Yes there was a time before Jesus.

So Jesus isn't God, or rather, isn't, as the Gospels would suggest, the Word?

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4in him was life,* and the life was the light of all people. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

Is this not describing Christ?

I see a lot of stuff about free will here. I don't fully understand what free will is. Someone like to tell me?

I see a lot of stuff about free will here. I don't fully understand what free will is. Someone like to tell me?

Thats a whole new thread, but I'll take a swing.

Suppose Zeus can see the future, and cannot be wrong. Zeus foresees me having a bagel for breakfast tomorrow.

I can no longer choose to not have a bagel, because it would violate supernatural axioms.

The ability to have either a bagel or wheaties, dependent solely on my deliberations independent of supernatural effect (but still certainly impacted by whatever neurochemical factors might make up my whim) is free will in this usage.

The death thing came up because Corneliu referenced how his father "should be dead, but isn't" as some kind of support for his position. He further stated that God chooses when people die.

I just find that idea highly inconsistent with free will.

Frankly, I think people die because of a combiation of behaviour and chance. Whether its anybody's fault depends on the situation, but I doubt its ever God's, particularly since I don't think there is one.

1. I can see where God intervening in some circumstances and not in others might seem unfair to some. That's a hard one. I trust in God though whether He chooses to answer my prayers the way I ask them or not.

2. God choosing when people die being inconsistent with the idea of free will. That's an interesting point I've never before considered. I believe my days are numbered by God, but I believe I choose how to live those days I have and make my own decisions including whether or not to put my faith in God. I'm not sure if I understand how that position would be inconsistent.

3. I see your point about death being a part of behavior and chance / sometimes others behaviors. Maybe thinking through this part helps me understand my position on number two above. I believe that God knows when I'll die. I'm not sure that means God will cause my death, although I won't dismiss the possibility that could happen (hopefully not). I don't believe that necessarily means God causes my death though (unless, again, He actually does). So maybe sometimes we confuse God's foreknowledge with God's sovereignty? This world is not heaven and I believe God allows some things to happen that are very awful. I don't blame those things on God. I blame those things on the people that choose to do awful things or on the belief that we live in a fallen world.

Thats a whole new thread, but I'll take a swing.

Suppose Zeus can see the future, and cannot be wrong. Zeus foresees me having a bagel for breakfast tomorrow.

I can no longer choose to not have a bagel, because it would violate supernatural axioms.

The ability to have either a bagel or wheaties, dependent solely on my deliberations independent of supernatural effect (but still certainly impacted by whatever neurochemical factors might make up my whim) is free will in this usage.

The initial conditions of the neurochemical factors that affect our choices were set by God. So really God sets what choices people make. Which is contrary to the popular belief that we make our own choices. So free will is a just bunch of dingos kidneys?

Never backpedaled once.

Never?

Not when you said there was a time before Christ, were shown Scipture that clearly states otherwise, and then said, "I know"?

2. God choosing when people die being inconsistent with the idea of free will. That's an interesting point I've never before considered. I believe my days are numbered by God, but I believe I choose how to live those days I have and make my own decisions including whether or not to put my faith in God. I'm not sure if I understand how that position would be inconsistent.
.

Its pretty straight foreward. If God chooses that I will die May 15th, 2015, I can't kill myself myself tomorrow, nor can anyone choose to kill me. I can't choose to jump in front of a spear meant for my wife, trading my life for hers.

Its not even really about death. Can God see the future at all? Can he foresee everything I do? Then I can't choose to do anything else, or else God would be proven wrong.

That's the inconsistency.

Its pretty straight foreward. If God chooses that I will die May 15th, 2015, I can't kill myself myself tomorrow, nor can anyone choose to kill me. I can't choose to jump in front of a spear meant for my wife, trading my life for hers.

Its not even really about death. Can God see the future at all? Can he foresee everything I do? Then I can't choose to do anything else, or else God would be proven wrong.

That's the inconsistency.

Unless, of course, God exists outside of time. Thus, it isn't really foreknowledge, so much as God seeing the entirety of the 4th dimension all at once.....

The initial conditions of the neurochemical factors that affect our choices were set by God. So really God sets what choices people make. Which is contrary to the popular belief that we make our own choices. So free will is a just bunch of dingos kidneys?

Well, I personally don't buy a God, so, for me, I don't believe so.

Its problematic to simultaneously assess both the position and momentum of any particle. In a sense, the nature of the information defies being known.

So, it would be a neat trick to even predict the behaviour of a relatively small system of moving particles, much less the messy, glial mass of dendrites and synapses that want or don't want a bagel.

Unless, of course, God exists outside of time. Thus, it isn't really foreknowledge, so much as God seeing the entirety of the 4th dimension all at once.....

Sure, but in that sense, time is just a mural, already drawn and only experienced as we walk down that hallway. Still bumps into free will a bit.

Maybe God sits in the upper 7 spatial dimensions, waiting for us to be ready for an invitation. Difficult to do more than speculate about Gods...

The initial conditions of the neurochemical factors that affect our choices were set by God. So really God sets what choices people make. Which is contrary to the popular belief that we make our own choices. So free will is a just bunch of dingos kidneys?

I'm not sure I follow you here. At least, I don't believe that my decisions are directed by God. For example, I have a choice to cheat on my income taxes or be honest. I wouldn't say that God made me make a certain decision or even that the Devil made me make a certain decison. That is an issue of one's free will.

I'm not sure I follow you here. At least, I don't believe that my decisions are directed by God. For example, I have a choice to cheat on my income taxes or be honest. I wouldn't say that God made me make a certain decision or even that the Devil made me make a certain decison. That is an issue of one's free will.

Does God now know whether you will cheat on your 2007 income taxes?

Can you choose to do the opposite of what he foresees, thus proving him wrong?

Well, I personally don't buy a God, so, for me, I don't believe so.

Its problematic to simultaneously assess both the position and momentum of any particle. In a sense, the nature of the information defies being known.

So, it would be a neat trick to even predict the behaviour of a relatively small system of moving particles, much less the messy, glial mass of dendrites and synapses that want or don't want a bagel.

Yes. But irrespective of the heisenburg uncertainty principle, irrespective of the fact that a choice could rely upon the completely random decay of a beryllium atom, God, being God, can still know with 100% certainty what initial conditions will produce what choices. Eliminating choice entirely does it not? So there is no free will, unless God's power is limited. So either free will doesn't exist, or God is not omnipotent. Is that fair or have I missed something.

Want to hear God laugh? Tell Him your plans.
Or just suffer.

Its pretty straight foreward. If God chooses that I will die May 15th, 2015, I can't kill myself myself tomorrow, nor can anyone choose to kill me. I can't choose to jump in front of a spear meant for my wife, trading my life for hers.

Its not even really about death. Can God see the future at all? Can he foresee everything I do? Then I can't choose to do anything else, or else God would be proven wrong.

That's the inconsistency.

I see your point. This is where I would say just because God knows you may die on May 15th, 2015 (which I hope you live much longer), doesn't mean necessarily causes your death on May 15th, 2015. Maybe if you were to choose to jump in front of the spear, commit suicide, etc. (again, hope those circumstances never come up for you), God would know that date would be your time. So free will would be knowing and yet not causing.

Its a hypothetical question designed to draw me into a hypothetical argument. Sorry but I will not fall for it.
You've already fallen for a hypothetical argument, Corneliu. That's the problem. :(

Yes. But irrespective of the heisenburg uncertainty principle, irrespective of the fact that a choice could rely upon the completely random decay of a beryllium atom, God, being God, can still know with 100% certainty what initial conditions will produce what choices. Eliminating choice entirely does it not? So there is no free will, unless God's power is limited. So either free will doesn't exist, or God is not omnipotent. Is that fair or have I missed something.

This is essentially correct, barring some kind of elaborate semantic foot work and metaphysical accomodations.

The further difficulty is that, if some religions are to be believed, God set initial conditions. So, to claim both ominscience and omnipotence, He would actually have to take responsibility for everything, since he knew everything that would happen, including our choices, before he pushed the "Go" button.

Does God now know whether you will cheat on your 2007 income taxes?

Can you choose to do the opposite of what he foresees, thus proving him wrong?

If I chose to do the opposite, then God would very well have known that instead ahead of time. I don't see a problem here.

Or just suffer.

Not fair. I'm very sorry you feel this way.

I see your point. This is where I would say just because God knows you may die on May 15th, 2015 (which I hope you live much longer), doesn't mean necessarily causes your death on May 15th, 2015. Maybe if you were to choose to jump in front of the spear, commit suicide, etc. (again, hope those circumstances never come up for you), God would know that date would be your time. So free will would be knowing and yet not causing.

You're missing the catch.

As soon as he sees me dying earlier, I can't choose to die later by NOT killing myself.

You see, God doesn't have to cause anything to remove choice. All he has to do is be a being that a)sees the future and b) is infallible. If he does both of those things, our fates are a function of his sight, not our choices.

For example, what if I haven't made up my mind yet? There's no choice of mine for him to see, yet he can still see the future. Thus, the decision is made, but I didn't make it.

This is essentially correct, barring some kind of elaborate semantic foot work and metaphysical accomodations.

The further difficulty is that, if some religions are to be believed, God set initial conditions. So, to claim both ominscience and omnipotence, He would actually have to take responsibility for everything, since he knew everything that would happen, including our choices, before he pushed the "Go" button.

In which case God sending us to hell because of his doing would give him the image of a rather arrogant bastard.

Holy Shit FEAR GOD !

You die, then choose the hell...
Imagine how much you're obliged to do to revere your god when alive..
How much would you have to do when in front of that thing???

Nay that's too dangerous, in hell you wont have to revere the almighty god willing to be revered for the beauty of his toes.


Now we pray, brothers make it it's no god, we should die in peace and for ever be blasted away from all these insanities, just be remembered in the souvenirs of our friends, amen.

The High Priest
Father of your children
Your god when alive
We'll do the job, live in peace, die in hell. :upyours:

Holy Shit FEAR GOD !

You die, then choose the hell...
Imagine how much you're obliged to do to revere your god when alive..
How much would you have to do when in front of that thing???

Nay that's too dangerous, in hell you wont have to revere the almighty god willing to be revered for the beauty of his toes.


Now we pray, brothers make it it's no god, we should die in peace and for ever be blasted away from all these insanities, just be remembered in the souvenirs of our friends, amen.

The High Priest
Father of your children
Your god when alive
We'll do the job, live in peace, die in hell. :upyours:

Um....I...I didn't quite....what?:confused:

If I chose to do the opposite, then God would very well have known that instead ahead of time. I don't see a problem here.

Ah, but then you couldn't have chosen the opposite of the opposite!

More importantly, your crazy neighbor couldn't have chosen to kill you before tax season.

You see, the outcome must conform to what God foresaw, which he foresaw before you were born! Before your choice was made, you see?

Say you can watch channel 2, 3, or 4 for the news tomorrow. God knows that channel and cannot be wrong. Choosing any other channel would prove him wrong.

So, when you go to set the channel, how many options are really allowable?

dont worry, the presence of christians has washed away my sins...
You sure it wasn't just bathing in a different kind of sin, one that seems pleasurable but under most circumstances is a natural biological response? :eek:

This is essentially correct, barring some kind of elaborate semantic foot work and metaphysical accomodations.

The further difficulty is that, if some religions are to be believed, God set initial conditions. So, to claim both ominscience and omnipotence, He would actually have to take responsibility for everything, since he knew everything that would happen, including our choices, before he pushed the "Go" button.

Nah. I wouldn't think that is fair to hold God responsible. Even though He knows the choices we will make, he still is fair enough to allow us to make those choices. If I killed someone, God's not responsible for that. I am. And as far as our chemical makeup, it's kind of hard to even hold that presupposition since if God did indeed make us (and I believe He did), He has placed us in a world affected by our choices, which has made this world something different than God's ideal for us.

Not fair. I'm very sorry you feel this way.
Don't cry for me Argentina! I didn't say i felt this way ... it's obviously a knock back to one of Corneliu's runs.
Besides, there's a good tune about it (a few i suspect but i don't spend much time listening to "god"-bashing music )...
Blasphemous Rumours by Depeche Mode

You're missing the catch.

As soon as he sees me dying earlier, I can't choose to die later by NOT killing myself.

You see, God doesn't have to cause anything to remove choice. All he has to do is be a being that a)sees the future and b) is infallible. If he does both of those things, our fates are a function of his sight, not our choices.

For example, what if I haven't made up my mind yet? There's no choice of mine for him to see, yet he can still see the future. Thus, the decision is made, but I didn't make it.

Nope. Because God is not limited to just your time of not knowing what you're going to do. I cannot buy the argument that just because God knows what you're going to do means he causes what you do. You can choose to do whatever you want. And whatever you choose - God knows ahead of time that's what you would have done. That doesn't affect our choices one bit because we don't know the mind of God.

Nah. I wouldn't think that is fair to hold God responsible. Even though He knows the choices we will make, he still is fair enough to allow us to make those choices. If I killed someone, God's not responsible for that. I am. And as far as our chemical makeup, it's kind of hard to even hold that presupposition since if God did indeed make us (and I believe He did), He has placed us in a world affected by our choices, which has made this world something different than God's ideal for us.

Well, I don't hold God responsible because I don't believe it exists.

Also, if you killed someone, God foresaw it, and didn't stop you. And if, at the last second, you had chosen not to kill, you'd have proven god wrong, and you can't do that.

Ah, well. Maybe Zeus foresaw me not being able to explain the paradox, so I can't...

Oh yeah, that. I had no idea there would be that many!
I think that CanuckHeaven and i have had suspicion of such, following the Maher Arar issue from a while back. I can easily say CanuckHeaven knows quite a bit more about this issue than myself.

Nope. Because God is not limited to just your time of not knowing what you're going to do. I cannot buy the argument that just because God knows what you're going to do means he causes what you do. You can choose to do whatever you want. And whatever you choose - God knows ahead of time that's what you would have done. That doesn't affect our choices one bit because we don't know the mind of God.

I'm not saying he causes it. I'm saying he supposedly foresaw it, and you can't choose differently without proving him wrong.

Can you prove God wrong? No? Then you can't choose anything other than what he foresaw.

And he since he foresaw every choice you'll ever make, its all already been decided, before you were born.

Ah, but then you couldn't have chosen the opposite of the opposite!

More importantly, your crazy neighbor couldn't have chosen to kill you before tax season.

You see, the outcome must conform to what God foresaw, which he foresaw before you were born! Before your choice was made, you see?

Say you can watch channel 2, 3, or 4 for the news tomorrow. God knows that channel and cannot be wrong. Choosing any other channel would prove him wrong.

So, when you go to set the channel, how many options are really allowable?

Only the one God set ahead of time I would watch? That doesn't make any sense. I pick whatever channel I want and God knows ahead of time what that would be. And I, not having the mind of God, will not contradict that which is already known. Because that which is already known is based off of my free will choice.

Nah. I wouldn't think that is fair to hold God responsible. Even though He knows the choices we will make, he still is fair enough to allow us to make those choices. If I killed someone, God's not responsible for that. I am. And as far as our chemical makeup, it's kind of hard to even hold that presupposition since if God did indeed make us (and I believe He did), He has placed us in a world affected by our choices, which has made this world something different than God's ideal for us.

I think you missed the point. When God created the universe, be it through creation or Big Bang, it had initial conditions. These conditions affect how everything in the universe will work. They affect how fast it grows, what the speed of light is, what the strength of gravity is, how fast humanity will develop, what choices every single person makes along the way. If the exact same conditions are set in multiple universes, all universes will be the same. If there is a single change in any condition, it will make a completely different universe. God knows that if he sets certain initial conditions, certain people will not be born, certain wars will not be started and certain choices will not be made. Our personality, our attitude, our choices depend solely upon these conditions. God chose these conditions. He therefore chose who will repent, and who will burn. It is his fault we are the way we are.

I'm not saying he causes it. I'm saying he supposedly foresaw it, and you can't choose differently without proving him wrong.

Can you prove God wrong? No? Then you can't choose anything other than what he foresaw.

And he since he foresaw every choice you'll ever make, its all already been decided, before you were born.

Ah, but those choices he foresaw were based off our free will.

Only the one God set ahead of time I would watch? That doesn't make any sense. I pick whatever channel I want and God knows ahead of time what that would be. And I, not having the mind of God, will not contradict that which is already known. Because that which is already known is based off of my free will choice.

You're reversing causality. That which is known came before, before you were even born. So it can't be based off your choice unless that choice can't change, in which case, its not a real choice.

Ah, but those choices he foresaw were based off our free will.

Choices can't be "locked in" that way, or they aren't choices.

So, when God sits around a billion years ago and says "Channel 4", you can now no longer watch channel 2. Its forbidden. If your Free Will differs, you change your mind from what God foresaw, your out of luck.

I think you missed the point. When God created the universe, be it through creation or Big Bang, it had initial conditions. These conditions affect how everything in the universe will work. They affect how fast it grows, what the speed of light is, what the strength of gravity is, how fast humanity will develop, what choices every single person makes along the way. If the exact same conditions are set in multiple universes, all universes will be the same. If there is a single change in any condition, it will make a completely different universe. God knows that if he sets certain initial conditions, certain people will not be born, certain wars will not be started and certain choices will not be made. Our personality, our attitude, our choices depend solely upon these conditions. God chose these conditions. He therefore chose who will repent, and who will burn. It is his fault we are the way we are.

I'm sorry I don't understand all of this. I know I don't agree with the conclusion, but this won't be a fantastic post because I didn't understand all of the stuff before it. It's probably just because it's 2:30 am and I've been awake now for about 17 hours now. It's time for me to go to bed. This has been fun.

I'm sorry I don't understand all of this. I know I don't agree with the conclusion, but this won't be a fantastic post because I didn't understand all of the stuff before it. It's probably just because it's 2:30 am and I've been awake now for about 17 hours now. It's time for me to go to bed. This has been fun.

I can explain it a little clearer later if you like, with examples perhaps. Goodnight.

I'm sorry I don't understand all of this. I know I don't agree with the conclusion, but this won't be a fantastic post because I didn't understand all of the stuff before it. It's probably just because it's 2:30 am and I've been awake now for about 17 hours now. It's time for me to go to bed. This has been fun.

No problem. Get some rest.

You're reversing causality. That which is known came before, before you were even born. So it can't be based off your choice unless that choice can't change, in which case, its not a real choice.

But that choice can change, and happens all the time. God just knows about it way ahead of time and doesn't cause me to change my mind - he just knows about it. He also knew a long time ago, like I said in the last post, that my mind would be very tired now and that I would go to bed. Unless I go run around the block and then try to stay up all night so I could prove God wrong - the only thing is - I have no idea what ultimately I will do. God does. And just because he knows, doesn't mean he causes. He just knows what we're going to choose. So tired. Even though this is interesting. Good night.

But that choice can change, and happens all the time. God just knows about it way ahead of time and doesn't cause me to change my mind - he just knows about it. He also knew a long time ago, like I said in the last post, that my mind would be very tired now and that I would go to bed. Unless I go run around the block and then try to stay up all night so I could prove God wrong - the only thing is - I have no idea what ultimately I will do. God does. And just because he knows, doesn't mean he causes. He just knows what we're going to choose. So tired. Even though this is interesting. Good night.

But once he knows, he limits. He limits you to doing what he knows, that's all.

Look at it this way. When God ordered the deaths of the firstborn children of egypt in an act of anger against a ruler, he ordered the Jews to put lambs blood on their doors, so he would know which children to murder and which children not to.

Would an all-knowing God need a blood marking to guide his childkilling?

Would an all-knowing God need a blood marking to guide his childkilling?

The way it was explained to me was the he already knew, but the lambs blood was to see who would obey him and be faithful. (Though given he knows everything it strikes me as a but superfluous.)

He's big on that; the obeying thing. All rather juvenille if you ask me.

Are you 100% sure of that?

That is what my oh-so-into-religion neighbour told me a few weeks ago. He allmost lives on religious discoveries and stuff. Besides him, they talked about it on the news

That is what my oh-so-into-religion neighbour told me a few weeks ago. He allmost lives on religious discoveries and stuff. Besides him, they talked about it on the news
That would be a subset of The Corneliu Maneuver - answer with a question that redirects where you're coming from - while not providing any valuable content otherwise.

That would be a subset of The Corneliu Maneuver - answer with a question that redirects where you're coming from - while not providing any valuable content otherwise.

Does it also involve leaning on a chair back and coughing? :rolleyes:

Does it also involve leaning on a chair back and coughing? :rolleyes:
Only in the strictest professional sense. No reach-around.

As in 'large' or 'immense'?
Oh he is.

That would be a subset of The Corneliu Maneuver - answer with a question that redirects where you're coming from - while not providing any valuable content otherwise.

Excuse me? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If I'm thinking right you want to know where I'm from, right? I'm from Skåne in southern Sweden and it was on the national news I saw the Judas Evangelin thing

I think you missed the point. When God created the universe, be it through creation or Big Bang, it had initial conditions. These conditions affect how everything in the universe will work. They affect how fast it grows, what the speed of light is, what the strength of gravity is, how fast humanity will develop, what choices every single person makes along the way. If the exact same conditions are set in multiple universes, all universes will be the same. If there is a single change in any condition, it will make a completely different universe. God knows that if he sets certain initial conditions, certain people will not be born, certain wars will not be started and certain choices will not be made. Our personality, our attitude, our choices depend solely upon these conditions. God chose these conditions. He therefore chose who will repent, and who will burn. It is his fault we are the way we are.
I can explain it a little clearer later if you like, with examples perhaps. Goodnight.
LOL

Excuse me? :confused: :confused: :confused:

If I'm thinking right you want to know where I'm from, right? I'm from Skåne in southern Sweden and it was on the national news I saw the Judas Evangelin thingI meant in his response, he was enacting a lesser statute of his eponymous maneuver. I agree with you. It was indeed good news.

Look at it this way. When God ordered the deaths of the firstborn children of egypt in an act of anger against a ruler, he ordered the Jews to put lambs blood on their doors, so he would know which children to murder and which children not to.

Would an all-knowing God need a blood marking to guide his childkilling?

It's these parts of the bible that make it dangerous IMHO. Stories of God randomly killing one races children? He also punishes David for having an affair by killing his first child. There is far too much of the "sins of the fathers" attitude in the bible.

The problem is that, as with anything, people tend to pick the things that support there argumentrs and moral stance, and disregard the rest. This means you end up with lots of people who love their neighbour turn the other cheek, etc, which is great. You also end up with a few nutjobs, who see only the violent, hate filled parts of the bible. And then you get the people inbetween, who while not violent, are quietly intolerant and disrespectful towards others.

God will put me on the right path he will be my guiding hand as my bolt goes straight and true into your hearts.

God will put me on the right path he will be my guiding hand as my bolt goes straight and true into your hearts.

Ah.....ok:confused:

Ah.....ok:confused:
:sniper:

:sniper:
Abusive Christianity seems to be the latest craze around here, doesn't it? =p

Abusive Christianity seems to be the latest craze around here, doesn't it? =p

Don't take that tone with him.:sniper:

Abusive Christianity seems to be the latest craze around here, doesn't it? =p ]
Me Christian certainly not, i am Jewish you Bigot!
Don't take that tone with him.:sniper:
:fluffle:

Me Christian certainly not, i am Jewish you Bigot!
:D


:fluffle:
:fluffle:

:D



:fluffle:
Much happening?

Much happening?

Nope. Listening to dire straits and playing the guitar. What about on your end?

Because the priests and shamen have always been intent on contolling both the population and the ideaology of the masses Religion was created as a way of gaining contol of both. Religion is the root cause of all was since time began as one priest would always find a way of finding fault with another's ideaology. In my opinion it is suits the weak minded who find themselves afraid of death the hope of an eternal paradise is better than the reality of death.
My suggestion to all who 'beleive' is make the most of this life as you are only here once.

Nope. Listening to dire straits and playing the guitar. What about on your end?
I am here and struggling to see.-Too much computer and not nough sleep.

Me Christian certainly not, i am Jewish you Bigot!
Fair enough; the craze is now abusive monotheism then! <_<

Don't take that tone with him.
It wasn't really so much directed at him as much in response to the sentiments expressed. It seems as though expressing the views of a deliberately (almost parodying) aggressive monotheism has become somewhat popular around this topic. Maybe, just maybe, people are simply trying to get a rise out of the rest of us? ^^;

I am here and struggling to see.-Too much computer and not nough sleep.

I know what that's like all to well. What is it, 10:00 over there?

Fair enough; the craze is now abusive monotheism then! <_<


It wasn't really so much directed at him as much in response to the sentiments expressed. It seems as though expressing the views of a deliberately (almost parodying) aggressive monotheism has become somewhat popular around this topic. Maybe, just maybe, people are simply trying to get a rise out of the rest of us? ^^;


He was snipering me because it was me, he was not making an aggressive viewpoint.

I know what that's like all to well. What is it, 10:00 over there?
Yep it is 10:00 you learn well squire.

He was snipering me because it was me, he was not making an aggressive viewpoint.
Oh. Well, I'll reroute the quote to the original "God will put me on the right path he will be my guiding hand as my bolt goes straight and true into your hearts." Which seemed like parody anyway.

Yep it is 10:00 you learn well squire.

I'm going to go watch lost. I'll be on and off in the ads.

Oh wait. Lost isn't on for another 50 minutes.:(

I'm going to go watch lost. I'll be on and off in the ads.
Oh don't let me lose respect for you, Lost is bizzare borderline crap.
Which season is it?