NationStates Jolt Archive

Can God force someone to love him? No. Why not? Because the nature of love requires a free choice.

Personally, if I was trying to get someone to love me, I'd spend time talking with them...learning about some of their intrests...Hanging out a bit maybe?

To imagine a universe without conflict, challenge, or even suffering, is to imagine a universe without choices. A universe without free will. And without free will, why bother? We might as well be watching a movie, instead of living.

You assume this universe includes free will. Why's that?

You people who say no theres no evidence and hes really mean if he was real are being absurd.

Yes I believe there is and I respect that there are ppl who dont believe in it but dont talk about facts. did you know over %93 of biologists believe in GOD just because of their studies on the cells of living organism's and did you know Sigmund Freud the great Logic man that was a atheist was addicted to cocain in the late 18:00's and thats how he made most of his awnsers on lust and love. God and other things. If there was truly no god everyone would be dead they would all commit suicide because the absence of god would cause everyone to relize there isnt one. and I think just vote dont dictate and dont give Facts that arent backed up. please

Bullshit.

Personally, if I was trying to get someone to love me, I'd spend time talking with them...learning about some of their intrests...Hanging out a bit maybe?

Indeed, but in all that could you force them. They are quite capable of just leaving at any time.

Well the only alternative is for us all to go to hell. God didnt want that so he created a means to save us.

Couldn't he...like...Not send us to hell? I mean, we don't even have to go to heaven, not that big a deal. But, seriously, isn't there some non-eternal-torment realm we could go to?

Bullshit.

WHY?

Indeed, but in all that could you force them. They are quite capable of just leaving at any time.

True, but talking to someone does a lot for convincing them you exist. That should be the first thing he tries to deal with.

WHY?

Well, the number is probably fake, there's no way he would know why, and why should I care? That should have nothing to do with their science, otherwise they aren't much of a biologist.

If a parent gives you a strict command you should obey it.

You're right. God is exactly like a parent from the bible!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (kill rebellious children)
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

You're right. God is exactly like a parent from the bible!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (kill rebellious children)
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Aw. Makes you all warm and fuzzy like inside. ;)

Well the only alternative is for us all to go to hell.

Wrong. "Going to Hell" is an asserted alternative that you make for your own convenience.

See "False Dilemma": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

A few musings of mine, looking back over the past few pages of posts:


1) For people that are supposed to believe by faith alone, there sure are a lot of them that are desperatly looking for some way to prove God's existence.

2) The lack of an existence of a higher being would only cause suicide amongst those relying on such a belief to provide a purpose for their life in what they refuse to admit would be an otherwise pointless existence. Many of us who dont believe in any god would argue that we exist because we are, and we have no need for a god to have a reason for our existence because there is no great purpose to our existence - it just is. This is a prime example of the human need to feel overly important and at the center of the universe. Throughout history, man-kind has attempted to put themselves where the rest of the universe revolves around them and where mankind is the only intelligent life in said universe. I mean, how much more special can a person be than to have been created by a God? What greater purpose to life could there be than to serve the one given by said God?

3) For self-proclaimed Christians, most of you arent very humble and are apparently quite close-minded as you've yet to give the hint of an idea that perhaps someone else's view is correct.

4) If the Christian God is truly omnipotent, omniscient, and without time, there is no such thing as free will. God already knows what you'll do before you do it, thus, you are pre-destined to perform certain actions. Whether or not the illusion of free will exists within the creature, it is still pre-destination.

5) For centuries, religious zealots have claimed to have evidence of God's existence only to later recant their claims based on scientific evidence. This goes back to the argument about needing evidence for the existence of an entity in which his followers are supposed to simply have faith. I wish I could tell my coworkers that they neednt look for evidence of my productivity, they simply need have faith that I am indeed being productive and then let them use the parts repaired as evidence that I was indeed helping - even though they didnt see me help. Is this not the same as what the Christian God expects? "He works in mysterious ways." "Have faith, God will answer in his own time." "No is an answer too." Anything that isn't explained by science or reason at this time in history is chalked up to God. "Intelligent Design." "Look at how beautiful the world is, there's no way it's random. Someone or something had to make this."

6) I will live my life according to my moral code. Whether you believe it to be good or bad morals, they're MY morals, and I'm entitled to live to that code as long as I dont break any laws. Who do Christians think they are to tell the rest of us that our morals are any less valid than theirs? Just because Christians believe in a higher being does not mean that the rest of us have to live to the moral code that higher being has set forth - I DONT BELIEVE IN HIM, why should I have to adhere to his moral code?


Once again, just a few musings / responses to a number of the Christians posting in the past few pages.

Wrong. "Going to Hell" is an asserted alternative that you make for your own convenience.

See "False Dilemma": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

But it isn't a false dilemma due to the fact is that is what is going to happen if we reject the Lord Savior Jesus christ.

But it isn't a false dilemma due to the fact is that is what is going to happen if we reject the Lord Savior Jesus christ.

And if God can't think of a reasonable alternative.

And if God can't think of a reasonable alternative.

There is no alternative.

Wrong. "Going to Hell" is an asserted alternative that you make for your own convenience.

See "False Dilemma": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


Indeed, if I dont believe there is a hell, why would I fear going there following my death?

There is no alternative.
Unless there is no God, and there is no Hell...


EDIT: this alternative is what makes the Heaven or Hell dilemma a false one.

There is no alternative.

Why? God doesn't have to been an asshole. Sure, we can't go to heaven, but eternal torment? Doesn't sound like the thing your God would do.

Why? God doesn't have to been an asshole. Sure, we can't go to heaven, but eternal torment? Doesn't sound like the thing your God would do.

Ahhh, but for as loving as he is, he's just as vengeful.

WHY?

Because of this.

http://media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=7583&SnID=895062746

Make a claim, back it up. :rolleyes:

please read what i wrote earlier, the go to: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485020
and vote

You have indeed made a choice and you have rejected what you believed. Now I understand one of Jesus's parables that much better.


Don't ruin the debate by being offensively obtuse.

I've already told you, I made NO 'choice'.... I did not 'reject' anything.

I ceased to believe... but it required no input or decision process.


But it was made to happen when the Creator created us with Free Will.

So - you are arguing I was pre-destined through all eternity, to no longer believe?

Yes, and plenty of other creation myths represent a great flood as well. What's crazy is to attribute the flood to a wrathful God that's punishing mankind for its "wickedness."

This much is true.


I don't see how "a priori purpose" = "we are not capable of discovering it".

To get into the philosophic tangles involved with the term, I mean a priori in the sense of a metaphysical purpose that exists for everyone, that exists outside of experience, and in this case would be beyond our ability to discover it (as if it truly exists in this fashion, as true for everyone and known before experience, then the only options available are that we all know what this purpose is, or no one knows what the purpose is. As we debate what it is, or if it exists, we obviously do not know it).


I'm not here to deny the validity of evolution. The question still exists, how does a random ball of hydrogen "decide" to evolve into higher life forms? While I do not discount "luck," it is hard to imagine "luck" having enough initiative to develop the purpose necessary to evolve from that ball of hydrogen to what we have today.

It didn't. Hell, for it took quite literally a billion years before the first life of any kind existed, and all that was was simple green algae floating in the sea. Over the course of hundreds of millions of years, chance molecular interactions formed amino acids, which later bound together to form proteins (I suggest you read Amino Acid Formation in Gas Mixtures by High Energy Particle Irradiation by K. Kobayashi, T. Kaneko, T. Saito and T. Oshima. This is a heavily researched, and proven, science), which bound together to create even larger structures, until finally the first true single cell organisms appeared in the shape of those little green algae . All they did was photosynthesize and split apart, but such was life. Gradually through mutation (likely small scale protein differences in energy creation) you got non-photosynthetic life, then to eukaryotik life, gradually expanding from single cell to multi-cell organisms, then to even larger organisms comprised of hundreds of cells (likely predated originally by hundreds of individual organisms bound in a similiar fashion), gradually expanding into the first fishlike creatures, and so and so forth. None of this is rocket science. We know how the building blocks of life formed in Earth's early history, we know how they would have joined together, and we can be reasonably certain that given a BILLION years they would have finally turned into something reasonably life-like. Remember, life has existed for over 3.5 billion years. When you think of early life, you're probably thinking of dinosaurs, and things like that? Well advanced life, such as that, has really only existed for about 600 million years...in other words, less than 13% of Earth's history. Humanity has existed for considerably less than 1%.


I must be an unusual case then: I believe that "sentience" and "soul" are one and the same.

So you're case is that the soul is related to chemical reactions inside the brain? Sentience isn't a total unknown, we know it isn't a metaphysical thing, we know that it exists because of genetic design...i.e. when you die, your sentience is gone, and that which created it is totally gone. Sentience cannot exist without a fully functioning brain (i.e. Terri Shiavo for one, under your definition of a soul, would have been soulless).


Since I'm only living one life presently, I can speak experientially, but not statistically. I have and do experience free will. I'm writing this post because I choose to, not because some chemical process in my brain forces me to.

No, but you can write this because of chemical processes in your brain. You remember how to write, how to move your hands, what the letter "A" means, because of chemical processes in your brain (an incredible oversimplification of how your brain really works, but it gets the point across). Everything you do, say, think, understand, etc, is a result of how your brain works. You may experience "free will", but that free will is only as good as it's ability to use the tools that your brain, like it's glorious chemical processes among other things, utilizes every milisecond...most of the time without you ever realizing it.


This I cannot prove, just as you cannot disprove it. It is only an assertion. But it is through just such assertions that I define who I am as an individual. Are you responsible for your actions? Are you capable of choice? Are you possessing of free will? How you would answer such questions reveals much about how you live your life.

Actually, I think I can disprove you to some degree. All your "free will" ultimately is, is the ability to utilize tools that exist thanks to physical reactions in your brain. Every symbol you use, the ability to understand words, letters, sounds, ideas, etc, all comes from physical reactions in your brain. Your ability to "choose" is subservient to your brain's ability to represent what you want. I am fully capable of replying or not replying to your post, that is my decision. However, here's the thing: That decision isn't an unbiased one. Every decision you make is impacted by every decision you've made in the past, it is impacted by experiences you've had in the past, it's impacted by instinctual reactions in your brain. You may think you've reached your decision to reply to me purely by logically considering the possibility, but you really haven't done so in an unbiased fashion. You still can choose to do something different...but you're being led by past experiences, memories, and subconcious prompts. Trust me, how your brain makes decisions is far, far more complicated than merely saying "Hmm...I could have a green or red apple today, which will I choose?" (Not directly related to the argument, but one could argue this is a direct byproduct of evolution. Natural selection wise, you would have a far better chance of living if you always considered past experiences, etc, even subconciously, before you actually made a decision).


The empirical-model world view tends to concentrate on effects, rather than causes. This is why the scientific method has so much trouble addressing God. God is, by definition, a cause, and not an effect. Even the Big Bang theory stops before it reaches God, because without a measurable effect, there can be nothing to observe, nothing to experiment upon, and therefore, nothing to prove.

That's a complete load of crap. I'm sorry but it's true. Science and empirical study use effects to try and determine causes. Hell, the scientific process demands that you try and hypothesis the cause before you really even study the effects. What really trips up science when it comes to God is not that God is a cause, but rather that God exists outside of cause and effect. If God was a cause, then he would need to be the byproduct of something. In science, shit doesn't just happen. Science doesn't argue that the Big Bang just happened. The Big Bang is an interesting case study, because we know many of the effects, and thereby moving backwards we can determine a probable cause...but we can't find the causes of the cause so to speak. That's really the big argument, is what started the Big Bang, whether it was all the matter in the universe compacted into such a small space that the laws of physics just broke, or something equally bizarre, we just don't know. But we're pretty sure that's the cause. God on the other hand? No evidence of actual effects, just hypotheses that he is the "cause of the cause".

One certainly can. It is precisely what I am doing.
And it is precisely why you fail in a logical and/or scientific debate. Faith is not applicable to either, in fact it is largely antithetical to both.

If you created a robot that looked exactly like a human being, that felt exactly like a human being, but whose every thought and response was programmed by you and you programmed it to respond with all the responses you would expect from loving you, then would it be real love? Of course not. You can force people to be physcially affectionate to you with threat of force or promise of payment etc but you cannot coerce love. That is an entirely diffrent thing.


You speak like you know what you are talking about... but it is, of course, pure speculation. Where is your EVIDENCE that the entity constructed would not be capable of 'real' love?


Can God create a four sideded hexegon? No. Why not? Because the nature of a hexegon is to have six sides


That isn't the 'nature' of the thing... that is it's 'definition'. You are trying to equate the omnipotence of god, with simple semantics. You obviously don't think much of this 'god'.


Can God force someone to love him? No. Why not? Because the nature of love requires a free choice.


Bullshit. Prove it. It is speculation and hollow rhetoric, until you put up something more than 'this is how I see it'.


God has not obscured it, he has given us his word the Bible. You can choose to not believe it and argue against it but the facts are all there. The evidence is there. Choose not to accept the Gospels, but it is your choice. And if you dont think they, and the bible as a whole, and the other sources are evidence enough, think again

http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

http://www.carm.org/bible/prophecy.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm

http://www.carm.org/questions/gospels_written.htm


I don't CHOOSE not to believe it. It is inconsistent (not surprising... how consistent would you EXPECT a series of books written over a thousand years to be?) and relies ENTIRELY on it's own internal claims to truth.

Well, the Lemony Snicket books claim to be 'factual histories', but I'm skeptical about those, also.

As for your 'Christian Apologetics' sites, you might get away with peddling that kind of immature bullshit on people that have NOT researched the matter, but kindly don't condescend any further, to continue attempting to ply them in my direction.


Pharaoh had 10 chances to repent, and Eden wasnt a test, it was a place. All that had to be done was for Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree, and they did.


Perhaps god 'hardening Pharaoh's heart' means something else, down your way.

Regarding Eden... if you think it is just 'a place', I pity your grasp of the scripture... I could argue about the specifics of the test - the refusal to explain 'lying', the unexplained presence of the serpent, the fact that the serpent actually tells only truth... but I'm not going to bother.


If he does ignore it, it is not justice.


Because YOU say so? I don't consider you sufficiently divine to accept you as universal arbiter, I'm afraid.


I wouldnt call leaving the heavenly courts to a stable in Bethlehem, living a life where the legitamacy of his birth was doubted, being mocked and ridiculed, betrayed and abandoned by closest friends and then being tortured and killed in one of the most horrible ways immagineable to solve the problem of sin 'just ignoring it'


All irrelevent, if you actually believe he was 'god'. 30-something years of suffering - even the worst kind imaginable - is a blink of the eye to an eternal god. Plus - of course - we have no reason to actually believe Jesus (existed?) could feel pain, in the normal 'human' fashion.


He does die though. That is all that matters. And if you dont think it was much of a sacrifices, then please go through it yourself. Even with the knowledge that it will end and be ok, having your entire blood drained from your body isnt something at all that we could say is unsacrifical.

If I went through it, how would that be parallel? I am not god... and I don't claim to be. If I went through it - it really WOULD be a sacrifice.

Well the only alternative is for us all to go to hell. God didnt want that so he created a means to save us.

Or - of course - he could just change the entry requirements for hell.

Why do you make your god such a weak reflection of man's worst excesses?

But it isn't a false dilemma due to the fact is that is what is going to happen if we reject the Lord Savior Jesus christ.

Only if we accept your premise as true... and if we DON'T accept your premise, we go to hell... which only matters if we acept your premise as true... and if we DON'T... well, etc.

Oh - and I see you have still not responded to this:

"What is so hard about you admitting that Satan is your lord and master, and that you shall serve him and all his little demons and wizards, gladly, for all eternity?

Actually, I think I can disprove you to some degree. All your "free will" ultimately is, is the ability to utilize tools that exist thanks to physical reactions in your brain. Every symbol you use, the ability to understand words, letters, sounds, ideas, etc, all comes from physical reactions in your brain. Your ability to "choose" is subservient to your brain's ability to represent what you want. I am fully capable of replying or not replying to your post, that is my decision. However, here's the thing: That decision isn't an unbiased one. Every decision you make is impacted by every decision you've made in the past, it is impacted by experiences you've had in the past, it's impacted by instinctual reactions in your brain. You may think you've reached your decision to reply to me purely by logically considering the possibility, but you really haven't done so in an unbiased fashion. You still can choose to do something different...but you're being led by past experiences, memories, and subconcious prompts. Trust me, how your brain makes decisions is far, far more complicated than merely saying "Hmm...I could have a green or red apple today, which will I choose?" (Not directly related to the argument, but one could argue this is a direct byproduct of evolution. Natural selection wise, you would have a far better chance of living if you always considered past experiences, etc, even subconciously, before you actually made a decision).

Actually, it's easier to argue against free will this way: Given that the human brain is a simply a physical object, made of physical synapsis, given a set input, the output is going to be the same, time and again. Regardless of whether we have the illusion of deciding for ourselves, the truth is, our brains are wired in a specific manner and fire in a specific manner based on the information input into the brain.

Why do you make your god such a weak reflection of man's worst excesses?

Even if I believed in supernatural entities, I would not believe in the Christian god for that exact reason. The Christian bible is filled with human prejudice, ignorance, and violence and a lot of this is ascribed to god. If the Christian god existed, who would want to follow him?

Because of this.

http://media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=7583&SnID=895062746

Make a claim, back it up. :rolleyes:

That's all I was asking. No need to be sarcastic about it.

Actually, it's easier to argue against free will this way: Given that the human brain is a simply a physical object, made of physical synapsis, given a set input, the output is going to be the same, time and again. Regardless of whether we have the illusion of deciding for ourselves, the truth is, our brains are wired in a specific manner and fire in a specific manner based on the information input into the brain.
Except there is slight differentiation. Of course, that is probably explained by the fact that the input is being set into slightly different models of the same object each time, thereby leading to a predetermined, although different, output. It's not merely individual input, it's overall.

Even if I believed in supernatural entities, I would not believe in the Christian god for that exact reason. The Christian bible is filled with human prejudice, ignorance, and violence and a lot of this is ascribed to god. If the Christian god existed, who would want to follow him?

If the Christian god really did exist, he would be all but un-followable.... too capricious to ever know where you were supposed to be, too easily malleable... too 'human'. And FAR too 'limited' by human mentality and morality.

Don't ruin the debate by being offensively obtuse.

I wasn't. I was being truthful. You are living proof of the Parable of the 4 soils for you sound like the seeds the fell onto shallow soil and die shortly after blooming. As Jesus stated "They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word." Either you belong in that group or among the group that fell into thorns and was choked off. In truth, I believe you are the third group.

I've already told you, I made NO 'choice'.... I did not 'reject' anything.

Then why don't you believe in God?

I ceased to believe... but it required no input or decision process.

Apparently it did however you do not recognize the fact that you did make a decision. You made the decision to not to believe.

Or - of course - he could just change the entry requirements for hell.

Why do you make your god such a weak reflection of man's worst excesses?
he did. he made it easier for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

He made it as simple a choice.

a choice you made, and made again. In fact, it was so simple, you even insist that you never made it when in reality, you did.

If the Christian god really did exist, he would be all but un-followable.... too capricious to ever know where you were supposed to be, too easily malleable... too 'human'. And FAR too 'limited' by human mentality and morality.then again, perhaps most of us don't need such complete and untterly Connect-the-dots type instructions to know what God wants us to do. He gave us the goal. He gave us the Guidlines and leaves the rest up to our creativity.

Many broke his guidelines and few asked for another chance. And you know what. he gives second... third... as many chances you need to get to your goal. Something most Men won't give.

Only if we accept your premise as true... and if we DON'T accept your premise, we go to hell... which only matters if we acept your premise as true... and if we DON'T... well, etc.

Oh - and I see you have still not responded to this:

Jesus is the person I serve. I do not and will not serve satan or his minions.

he did. he made it easier for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

He made it as simple a choice.

a choice you made, and made again. In fact, it was so simple, you even insist that you never made it when in reality, you did.

then again, perhaps most of us don't need such complete and untterly Connect-the-dots type instructions to know what God wants us to do. He gave us the goal. He gave us the Guidlines and leaves the rest up to our creativity.

Many broke his guidelines and few asked for another chance. And you know what. he gives second... third... as many chances you need to get to your goal. Something most Men won't give.


Well said JuNi. Well said indeed. Amen.

That's all I was asking. No need to be sarcastic about it.

Nah, I was just being firm on one-hit-wonder Malachoria who tried to hit-and-run us with a 93% claim. Sarcasm plain doesn't work on you. Straughn knows. :D

Good point. I dont think anyone should eliminate the posibility of the existence of a 'god' just because they think the ideas of one religion are completely stupid.
Agreed. This thread is certainly doing a good job of qualifying that line of thinking, apparently - in one respect or another.

If the Christian god really did exist, he would be all but un-followable.... too capricious to ever know where you were supposed to be, too easily malleable... too 'human'. And FAR too 'limited' by human mentality and morality.

And you wonder why I worry about your soul :(

Nah, I was just being firm on one-hit-wonder Malachoria who tried to hit-and-run us with a 93% claim. Sarcasm plain doesn't work on you. Straughn knows. :D

Actually it does work from time to time :D

then again, perhaps most of us don't need such complete and untterly Connect-the-dots type instructions to know what God wants us to do. He gave us the goal. He gave us the Guidlines and leaves the rest up to our creativity.

A lot of the guidelines are contradictory so how could anyone follow them faithfully?

Should I try to become wise?
Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
1 Corinthians 1:19
For I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Should I swear oaths?
Deuteronomy 6:13
Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven for it is God's throne; nor by the earth for it is his footstool.

What should I sacrifice on the day of the new moon?
Numbers 28:11
And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot.
Ezekiel 46:6
And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram.

http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/lurk.gif

Nah, I was just being firm on one-hit-wonder Malachoria who tried to hit-and-run us with a 93% claim. Sarcasm plain doesn't work on you. Straughn knows. :D*so does Fass* ;)

Zoidberg: "The important thing is I'm meeting new people."

What heresy?Are you nuckin' futs?
Do you even know your own "material"? :rolleyes:
Here's a hint - Pilate.

And since God created the tree, he is entitled to destory it.
Jesus wasn't god, so you haven't got it there either. It wasn't destroying it EITHER. Moddamn you don't really know much about your source material, do you? *shakes head*

Are you nuckin' futs?
Do you even know your own "material"? :rolleyes:
Here's a hint - Pilate.

Pilate tried to free Jesus Straughn.

Jesus wasn't god, so you haven't got it there either. It wasn't destroying it EITHER. Moddamn you don't really know much about your source material, do you? *shakes head*

Oh brother...I know what you are talking about and well..... lets say that apparently you don't know what you are talking about in this case.

I believe in God (though not the Christian version of it, nor of any organized religion really).

However, I don't think this invalidates the scientific reasearching of who and what we are and where we come from.

I also don't think God has any manual for how we are to live, nor invloves herself in human matters.
It would be too much like always runing to Daddy every time a problem cropped up.
If we want to grow up as a species and become adults, we have to learn from our own mistakes, and clean up our own messes.

I don't mind people having different believes than me though. One of my basic tenets is: "There is no one true way".

If you're comfortable with your beliefs, good for you. :)

he did. he made it easier for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Believe in me based on nothing but the words written in a 2,000 year old book, and you can come in."

He made it as simple a choice.

Bullshit.

a choice you made, and made again. In fact, it was so simple, you even insist that you never made it when in reality, you did.

That's fucking pathetic. How the fuck do you know when I did or didn't make a choice? You believe in God, and "weep" for those who don't. It must be so easy for you to sit at your keyboard and tell those who don't believe what fate awaits them, and how it's their fault. How wonderfully convenient.

"Man, you're going to Hell and it's your fault because you made the wrong choice."

What fucking choice? When was I ever consciously aware of a choice that I had to make in order to get into Heaven? When has God ever directly proven himself to me?

NEVER. He has never once contacted me in a direct fashion to prove himself. Because of this, I don't believe in him, and thusly -- those of you who do think I'm going to Hell. It's absolutely despicable how you can honestly stand up and say that casting non-believers into eternal torment on the basis of disbelief alone is righteous.

Religions have come and gone. Christianity is not exempt from this rule.

I can buy a ticket to those places. I cannot buy a ticket to Heaven or Hell. The places you list exist on a material world, in the world we live in. The things he speaks of may or may not exist in an ethereal and immaterial world.


Actually, God doesn't talk about Heaven in the Old Testament to any extent. Nor Hell. Those only show up in the New Testament.Furthermore, here's another major break in your analogy. If I get a map, any map, they should lead me to where I want to go or else I'll know the map is wrong, and I'll get a new one. There is a definitive way to get where I want to go. That doesn't work with "Heaven". Which way is the right way? The Catholic way? The Protestant way? The Jewish way? The Hindu way? The Sikh way? The Way way (sorry, couldn't resist)? The Olympian way? All those maps disagree heavily, how can you possibly be able to assert that any is more right than the others?


You see, I don't see Jesus ever preaching about how God made Hell for Satan. In fact, I don't really see Jesus mention that at all. The only places I here this stuff being mentioned is by various apostles, saints, and other figures who have no right to claim any kind of infallibility, nor divine messenges. What if I believe in the Gospel of Judas, and think that Judas was actually following Jesus' bidding when he went to the Romans and "betrayed" Jesus? Furthermore, as I've already pointed out how many imperfect writers have told us what God wants us to do, how can I possibly know which is correct? What if the Aztecs were correct and I need to sacrifice to the Sun God regularly if I want to be saved? How can I possibly know how God wants me to live when he sends constantly contradictory messages?

You're way isn't necessarily the right way. There are far too many "right ways" for that idea to possibly work.
Excellent post. *bows*

I wasn't. I was being truthful. You are living proof of the Parable of the 4 soils for you sound like the seeds the fell onto shallow soil and die shortly after blooming. As Jesus stated "They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word." Either you belong in that group or among the group that fell into thorns and was choked off. In truth, I believe you are the third group.


My loss of belief was nothing to do with persecution or problems, and nothing to do with 'dying shortly after blooming'. I was a Christian for a number of years, but, in the end... it just failed to be something that was still convincing as my mind matured.


Then why don't you believe in God?


Why don't YOU believe in Astarte?


Apparently it did however you do not recognize the fact that you did make a decision. You made the decision to not to believe.

Ah yes... I made that decision the same time you decided to be a one-legged black lesbian, yes?

*snip*

I hate to break it to ya but if you are not listening nor paying attention, you will not know if he has tried to reach out to you.

You require proof but when it is offered, you have rejected it. You have failed to hear the good news of the God's love and yet you still require proof as to wether or not he exists.

Apparently it did however you do not recognize the fact that you did make a decision. You made the decision to not to believe.

So God sends us to Hell for decisions we're unaware we made?

I hate to break it to ya but if you are not listening nor paying attention, you will not know if he has tried to reach out to you.

And how, pray tell, does one "listen" for or "pay attention" to God?

You require proof but when it is offered, you have rejected it. You have failed to hear the good news of the God's love and yet you still require proof as to wether or not he exists.

I haven't been offered any proof, other than by folks who seem to debunk the idea of a God. Oh, my bad, they were agents of Satan...

My loss of belief was nothing to do with persecution or problems, and nothing to do with 'dying shortly after blooming'. I was a Christian for a number of years, but, in the end... it just failed to be something that was still convincing as my mind matured.

As I said, you sound like the parable of the 4 soils.

Why don't YOU believe in Astarte?

I believe in the One true God. Creator of Heaven and earth which is full of His glory.

Ah yes... I made that decision the same time you decided to be a one-legged black lesbian, yes?

Sarcasm is not going to change the choice you have made. You have decided to turn away from God and His Son Jesus.

Pilate tried to free Jesus Straughn.

Is that my point? I said Pilate was a hint. SPECIFICALLY, how did that come to pass?
I don't want semantics here. Think carefully about what you should say here.

Oh brother...I know what you are talking about and well..... lets say that apparently you don't know what you are talking about in this case.
And your post really, really qualifies that? You have nothing in this post (or perhaps many, MANY others) to adequately refute my pov. To be fair, you haven't shown anything except "oh brother" here, so i don't know what you think you know about that situation. I guess if you bothered to back up the statement, we'd find out. For example, post the material i'm talking about (from the different translations, perhaps).
But if it were to rest on your posting history ... :eek:

So God sends us to Hell for decisions we're unaware we made?

He has turned his back on the Lord God. That is making a choice wether you want to recognize that or not.

"Man, you're going to Hell and it's your fault because you made the wrong choice."

What fucking choice? When was I ever consciously aware of a choice that I had to make in order to get into Heaven? When has God ever directly proven himself to me?

Didn't you know that you choose your beliefs? So, if I wanted to believe in faeries I could by just deciding to do so.

Beliefs are that easy. You can turn them on and off by will alone. :)

We actually grow in the Spirit of the Lord. We do grow up. We grow up with the Spirit of the Lord.
Well, if the gimp suit fits ... *thinks Pulp Fiction*

No, wait - that's not my point. We GROW UP TO TAKE CARE OF OUR F*CKING SELVES IN REALITY, NOT into servitude and irrelevance as you would with the OT/NT "god".
Do you understand now or will this be ANOTHER arduous and essentially fruitless exercise? *grr*

he did. he made it easier for man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


Which is nothing to do with what I said. Nice evasion.


He made it as simple a choice.

a choice you made, and made again. In fact, it was so simple, you even insist that you never made it when in reality, you did.


No. It was not a choice, at either 'end' of the spectrum. I'm pretty sure you and I are not familiar with one another, outside of NS... so I fail to see how you can speak with such assurance about the events you claim happened in MY life...


then again, perhaps most of us don't need such complete and untterly Connect-the-dots type instructions to know what God wants us to do. He gave us the goal. He gave us the Guidlines and leaves the rest up to our creativity.


If you mean, some of us are willing to believe anything we are told without question - then I'd agrre that some of us DO fit that description, and some don't.

I've read a number of 'scruptures', which describe a wealth of different versions of the 'truth' about 'god'. I see nothing to make the Christian Bible any MORE rleiable than any of those other texts... so I see no reason to believe that the Chritian Bible alone, can possibly describe the 'guidelines'.


Many broke his guidelines and few asked for another chance. And you know what. he gives second... third... as many chances you need to get to your goal. Something most Men won't give.

None of which lessens the fact that this 'god' created a flawed design, a deliberate vengeance to enact upon that flawed design, and then sets the requirements for avoiding that vengeance, as being more easily led...

If I were not already an Atheist, and I could choose, I would reject such a 'god'.

Jesus is the person I serve. I do not and will not serve satan or his minions.

Why do you deny it? You KNOW you serve Satan. You worship him on your hands and knees, as the creator of you and your reality, as your sole benefactor, and as the one true love of your life.

Why would you deny that?

And how, pray tell, does one "listen" for or "pay attention" to God?



I haven't been offered any proof, other than by folks who seem to debunk the idea of a God. Oh, my bad, they were agents of Satan...

You have been offered proof and you have rejected it for those who do not support God. You must look at everything concerning God. The proof is all around you but you must be willing to recognize that this is what God has given us. This is the proof that you have yet to acknowledge. Once you acknowledge this, you need to quiet your mind and be at peace in order to listen to God.

Nice of you to hack off the last sentence.
Put it back in and see if the point is the same, as long as it pertains.

Why do you deny it? You KNOW you serve Satan. You worship him on your hands and knees, as the creator of you and your reality, as your sole benefactor, and as the one true love of your life.

Why would you deny that?
Wow - i never thought i'd see this ....
...though i'd always kinda hoped ... :D

And you wonder why I worry about your soul :(

Not only do I NOT 'wonder' that, I was not aware you DID 'worry about' my 'soul'.

Indeed, based on your own claimed knowledge of scripture, I doubt you even know what 'soul' is.

You can save yourself from worrying, anyway... I'm already saved. I'm in. My Atheist eternity in the One Kingdom is assured.

Well, if the gimp suit fits ... *thinks Pulp Fiction*

No, wait - that's not my point. We GROW UP TO TAKE CARE OF OUR F*CKING SELVES IN REALITY, NOT into servitude and irrelevance as you would with the OT/NT "god".
Do you understand now or will this be ANOTHER arduous and essentially fruitless exercise? *grr*

I grow spiritually. In essence, I am growing up but spiritually. Also, there is no need to shout nor use foul words in a sentence.

Why do you deny it? You KNOW you serve Satan. You worship him on your hands and knees, as the creator of you and your reality, as your sole benefactor, and as the one true love of your life.

Why would you deny that?

I deny serving Satan. Satan's power has no hold over me for I am protected by the Blood of the Lamb. When the name of the Lord Savior Jesus Christ of Nazareth is invoked, the devil has to flee.

Not only do I NOT 'wonder' that, I was not aware you DID 'worry about' my 'soul'.

Indeed, based on your own claimed knowledge of scripture, I doubt you even know what 'soul' is.

You can save yourself from worrying, anyway... I'm already saved. I'm in. My Atheist eternity in the One Kingdom is assured.

No your not for you have rejected it by becoming an athiest.

Yes it is fair because you rejected God's Love. By doing so, you will get punished.
Siglisted.
This is exactly the kind of mentality Saint Curie was talking about ... and look ma, i didn't even hack off the last part! ;)

BTW, just try this mentality in real life with real people. :mad:

As much as man is made in "his" image, i suspect. *nods solemnly*

One of the most significant mistakes that religious folks often make is spending their time portraying God in their images rather than using it to make sure they themselves are living in such a way as to live up to God's image.

As I said, you sound like the parable of the 4 soils.


Of course I do. You've made your decision, and you aren't going to let reality bias it. After all, it's a well known fact that 'reality' has a deliberate Atheist bias.


I believe in the One true God. Creator of Heaven and earth which is full of His glory.


It wasn't that confusing a question... so I have to assume you simply refused to answer it.

Why DON'T you worship the goddess Astrate?


Sarcasm is not going to change the choice you have made. You have decided to turn away from God and His Son Jesus.

I thought you were being sarcastic... afetr all, we've never met, yet you feel qualified to describe formative moments in my early life...

I don't know how to make it any more idiot-proof... I didn't 'choose' or 'decide' anything. I just didn't believe any more.

If you fall into a bonfire, and step away with flames all over you... did you 'choose' to be on fire? Was it a decision?

I believe in water.
I'm still iffy about it. Ask my wife (we're Klingons ;) )
oh ... does water believe in you?

Why DON'T you worship the goddess Astrate?

Because she is *ahem* a false god. I only worship the One True God.

I deny serving Satan. Satan's power has no hold over me for I am protected by the Blood of the Lamb. When the name of the Lord Savior Jesus Christ of Nazareth is invoked, the devil has to flee.

Blah blah...

WHY do you deny serving Satan...? I know you do. We ALL know you do.

Even YOU know you do. You KNOW that he is your creator, and that you owe all your earthly power and essence to his demonic ministrations.

Why do you continue to deny it?

And please - no more of your irrelevent, profane and - frankly, blasphemous - protestations about your pretender Zombie-god.

No your not for you have rejected it by becoming an athiest.

Once saved, always saved, my friend... what once he has gathered up, no power can take from his hand.

I'm in... heathen or no.

Blah blah...

WHY do you deny serving Satan...? I know you do. We ALL know you do.

Even YOU know you do. You KNOW that he is your creator, and that you owe all your earthly power and essence to his demonic ministrations.

Why do you continue to deny it?

And please - no more of your irrelevent, profane and - frankly, blasphemous - protestations about your pretender Zombie-god.

I deny it because it is untrue. I only serve the Lord and His Son, the Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth who died on the cross for our sins.

Once saved, always saved, my friend... what once he has gathered up, no power can take from his hand.

I'm in... heathen or no.

I wouldn't want to test that theory but if ya want to, go ahead.

Because she is *ahem* a false god. I only worship the One True God.

That still doesn't answer WHY you don't believe in her. That is just a conclusion you can come to BECAUSE you don't believe in her.

So - WHY don't you believe in Astarte?

One of the most significant mistakes that religious folks often make is spending their time portraying God in their images rather than using it to make sure they themselves are living in such a way as to live up to God's image.
Agreed, actually - which is why it's important to point out what image we get of it - be it Yahweh or Ganeesha, for example ... as murderer or lover, as cellkeep or benevolence. Again, something Saint Curie was getting at.
Seriously, you work w/the material you've got :(

That still doesn't answer WHY you don't believe in her. That is just a conclusion you can come to BECAUSE you don't believe in her.

So - WHY don't you believe in Astarte?

I have already answered your question. I do not believe in her because she is a false God. I do not bow down nor worship a false God. I worship the one true God who sent his son to die for our sins.

I deny it because it is untrue. I only serve the Lord and His Son, the Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth who died on the cross for our sins.

You keep saying it's untrue... but we KNOW it's true. YOu KNOW it's true, although you keep trying to deny it. Perhaps you even deny it to yourself... but you owe your every breath and existence to Satan, his Dark Majesty that is the Dark Sun in your sky.

I don't know why you keep making these transparent protestations.

Satan has shown himself to you in all his majesty, and you have received him - though you try to deny it.

Indeed - the MORE you deny it, the more obvious it is that you are Satan's pawn.

I wonder why you DO keep on denying such a self-evident Truth?

That still doesn't answer WHY you don't believe in her. That is just a conclusion you can come to BECAUSE you don't believe in her.

So - WHY don't you believe in Astarte?
I think i can fairly safely state that Corny's being .... wait for it ...

Corn-pwned :p

I was saving this, but Grave earned it. :)

I wouldn't want to test that theory but if ya want to, go ahead.

I didn't actually need your permission, but thank you for the blessing.

I'm hoping this thread passes the Paradise Beach Club thread, just because it would be funny.

I didn't actually need your permission, but thank you for the blessing.

All I said was that it was your choice. I in no way blessed you.

I have already answered your question. I do not believe in her because she is a false God. I do not bow down nor worship a false God. I worship the one true God who sent his son to die for our sins.

No - you still haven't answered WHY.

WHY is she a false god? How do you know that? What is it about Astarte that tells you she is false?

Based solely on the scripture relating to her, you would have to be the worst kind of skeptic to throw her kindness back in her face.

You can say she is false BECAUSE - as I said - you have decided NOT to worship her. If you DID worship her, you would not think - I assume - that she was false.

SO - why not worship her?

Because she is *ahem* a false god. I only worship the One True God.
How do you *ahem* know? Jesus isn't recognized by the majority of humanity as a Messiah in any way shape or form. How can you possibly prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

Face it, you have no proof whatsoever that your God is any truer than any other bevy of "true" Gods which have their directly spoken word in some form (the Koran, the Vedas in a way as well), or divine prophets (Buddha, Zoroaster).

*snip*

I've already answered the question.

All I said was that it was your choice. I in no way blessed you.

That isn't what you said - you commented on it being my will, and then you sped me on my way with your approval...

"if ya want to, go ahead".

No matter what YOU might WANT that to be - it IS a blessing. And I thank you for it. Although I find it a curious gesture.

Jesus had OLIVE SKIN!
Point = Corneliu :eek:


And now for the usual Straughnism ...
*thinks then the transubstantiation should be coupled with a martini* :p

I'm hoping this thread passes the Paradise Beach Club thread, just because it would be funny.
We'd pwe it all to Ill Rufferto!! :eek:

I've already answered the question.
No you haven't, you've only skimmed it by saying what you believe in your God. You have yet to prove in any fashion that any other God is less true than yours.

I've already answered the question.

No - you haven't. You keep making excuses so that you don't have to.

Blather blather Zombie-king blather blather.

As a child, you got on your knees, and you recited the words "IN exchange for wealth and power, I sell my soul to thee", before a mirror, signed in your own blood. It was a heartfelt prayer to Satan, to accept him into your heart, and your soul.

You chose to exchange your eternal soul, for wealth and power on earth...

I wonder why you keep denying that?

The fires need fuel? So it's not eternal...Eventually they run out of natural resources to burn, then we go to heaven...
Luv ya! :fluffle:

You assume we've been given something.
Good post. *bows*

Well, many thanks (mainly to Straughn, and my dear friend Corneliu)... I'd love to stay and dance all night, after Corneliu has so deftly swept me off my feet... but it's been more than a day since I last slept, and there are things I need to see, and people I need to do.

Thanks, it's been real.

Point = Corneliu :eek:


And now for the usual Straughnism ...
*thinks then the transubstantiation should be coupled with a martini* :p

Oww that is a really difficult reference. :confused:

Are you sure it's not Star-Trekkism (albeit with substance somewhere in there?).

God created us with free will for one reason, to enable us to love. Love is impossible without free will. We chose with our free will not to love God, and disobeyed him. Thus making him a miserable failure, apparently.

God has to be just to that and so he does punish it. A carpenter blames not his hammer.
He can't just ignore it, it needs to be "fixed". So he does punish, punishes himself. He dies so that we could live eternally.Another great fallacy, since the guy you're babbling about walked off. Another great hoax perpetrated. He wasn't ever really dead. And i further challenge you to qualify that God ACTUALLY LET HUMANS KILL HIM. Think carefully about it - this is a MAJOR fallacy in your religion - you're saying that while Jesus was dead for THAT AMOUNT OF TIME,
THE WORLD WENT ON WITHOUT GOD, SINCE HE WAS DEAD. Sucker. *shakes head*

But again he leaves us with a choice. It is up to us to either choose to be with him or not.There's better and more realistic prospects for beings who don't set their sights so low.

Corneliu, I know you like to avoid questions when you can't answer them (you already did this to me about 100 pages back more or less), so I ask you again:

How do you *ahem* know? Jesus isn't recognized by the majority of humanity as a Messiah in any way shape or form. How can you possibly prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

Face it, you have no proof whatsoever that your God is any truer than any other bevy of "true" Gods which have their directly spoken word in some form (the Koran, the Vedas in a way as well), or divine prophets (Buddha, Zoroaster).


No bullshit, no *snip*, answer the question.

Well, many thanks (mainly to Straughn, and my dear friend Corneliu)... I'd love to stay and dance all night, after Corneliu has so deftly swept me off my feet... but it's been more than a day since I last slept, and there are things I need to see, and people I need to do.

Thanks, it's been real.
Thanks for hangin' in so long - i never get to keep in a thread with you for this much time! *bows*

[QUOTE=IL Ruffino]I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

There is definately a God ...Just look around you ,think about t

Aw, no-one called me a heretic or satan-worshiper, nor ridiculed me for believing in God. And here's been looking forward to the debate...
Either you are very tolerant or you just didn't notice my post. ;)


I thought all religions were True, for a given value of Truth.

I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

EDIT: And why do you feel that way?
i really wanted to yell at you after reading this but then i realised it wouldn't help any.

god does the things he/she does to make us stronger for our life after this one. this is only a prelude to our life with him/her. our lives here end when it is our time to pass. it may seem like we were taken before our time but really we were taken at the time we were meant.

as you could probably tell i do believe in god. it makes my life so much easier. to know that in the end i am just going to end up in a better place. that there is someone up there watching over me. that every problem i am faced with i have because god knows i can handle it.

i will probably never return here but i said what i was meant to say and thats all there is to it.

A lot of the guidelines are contradictory so how could anyone follow them faithfully? first of all, like all who argue and use the bible as tools to show why they disbelieve. You are taking bits and pieces out of context.

lets go over each verse one at a time then. shall we?


Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
the whole chapter.
Proverbs 4
1 Listen, my sons, to a father's instruction;pay attention and gain understanding.
2 I give you sound learning, so do not forsake my teaching.
3 When I was a boy in my father's house, still tender, and an only child of my mother,
4 he taught me and said, "Lay hold of my words with all your heart; keep my commands and you will live.
5 Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or swerve from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, [a] get understanding.
8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will set a garland of grace on your head and present you with a crown of splendor."
10 Listen, my son, accept what I say, and the years of your life will be many.
11 I guide you in the way of wisdom and lead you along straight paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be hampered when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go guard it well, for it is your life.
14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked or walk in the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it, do not travel on it turn from it and go on your way.
16 For they cannot sleep till they do evil they are robbed of slumber till they make someone fall.
17 They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence.
18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.
19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness they do not know what makes them stumble.
20 My son, pay attention to what I say listen closely to my words.
21 Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart;
22 for they are life to those who find them and health to a man's whole body.
23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
24 Put away perversity from your mouth keep corrupt talk far from your lips.
25 Let your eyes look straight ahead fix your gaze directly before you.
26 Make level paths for your feet and take only ways that are firm.
27 Do not swerve to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil.

Here they are talking about the Father's Wisdom being passed down to Child. now it's up to you weither or not that Father is God or Paternal. but in fact, it can mean both.

1 Corinthians 1:19
For I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

here they are talking about the Wisdom and Intellect of those who seek to Disprove God. note the references afterwards that define wisdom of the world vs God's wisdom. Man, in their finite Wisdom and Intellect, will never prove or unwrap the riddle that is God.

so Yes, seek Wisdom and Intellect, but don't waste them trying to disprove God and his teachings. you won't.

Deuteronomy 6:13
Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.note it you take your oath by his name. thus you are swearing your loalty to Him. and no other god.

13 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and [B]take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the LORD's sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land that the LORD promised on oath to your forefathers, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the LORD said.

Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven for it is God's throne; nor by the earth for it is his footstool.

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.here it is again warning you not to place your oath in anything but God. Do not even swear by Heaven or even parts of your body. (i.e. Heart, honor, soul... etc.) only to God. if someone wants you to promise or to swear, only reply yes or no. nothing more.

Numbers 28:11
And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot.
Ezekiel 46:6
And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram.
actally this is simple. Nothing. for with the sacrifice of Jesus, all things are made new.

Ephesians 1:7
6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
The act of sacrifice was for Forgiveness. but with the Crucifixition of Jesus, such burnt sacrifices are no longer necessary, required nor wanted. Jesus was the final Sacrifice.

I've already answered the question.
Corneliu, your advoidance of answering this question is becoming increasingly ridiculous. You have no proof that your religion is any more valid than anyone elses, even if said religion is absurd. Your god can be proven no more divine or true than Vishnu or the Wicked Witch of the West. You're avoiding answering why you consider your god more valid because you are not able to answer. You only have an opinion that you god is more valid, yet are too stubborn to call it anything other than fact. You're wrong. It's not fact. It's opinion, regardless of whether or not it eventually turns out to be true, because you cannot prove it.

what i don't understand is why people are prompted by some sort of unexplainable phenomena (good or bad) to change their beliefs.

why would a god allow people to die? because, if we're speaking about the traditional idea of a christian god, it's for the greater good, perhaps? or simply because how "good" of a person she may have been, (regardless of how "bad" of a man her husband is/was) is not for you to judge.

have you ever heard of a blind person who regained their sight, or any other amazing phenomena of the sort? a lot of people who go through some sort of traumatic experience (good or bad) seem to come out with a stronger appreciation for religion/god.

my point is... why should any of this convince you one way or the other? the answer is, it shouldnt... but it does because our minds are so quick to give the unexplainable some sort of reason, and what better reason than something we dont have to explain any further? god!

for the record, i am agnostic, but i was raised catholic. i respect religion for its moral value, but i look at orgainzed religions as traps for our inferior minds. in order to be religious, you're expected to maintain faith in something there is simply no proof of. by the definition of faith, though, you're never expected to question why. rather, you're expected to shut your mind off and just believe. for that reason, i find it hard to follow any specific religion. not to say there is no higher being of any sort (though, at this point, such a thing is hard to imagine), but the way we've humanized all the surrounding concepts, it certainly makes it seem innately faulty and unworthy of my faith.

Existence itself is not evidence of a God. The "intelligent design" argument is an un-ending loop that relies on clever metaphors to "prove" itself.

And no, I find no inherent "goodness" in existence, we simply exist, and that's that.
Good point - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/21/id_vatican_not_science/
Intelligent design 'not science', says Vatican astronomer
While Cardinal warns of evolution-as-dogma
By Lucy Sherriff
Published Monday 21st November 2005 10:46

Intelligent Design is not science, and has no place in science lessons, according to the
Vatican's chief astronomer, the Rev. George Coyne. According to the Italian
news agency, ANSA, Father Coyne was speaking informally at a conference in
Florence when he said that intelligent design "isn't science, even though it
pretends to be."

He argued that if it is to be taught in schools, then it should be taught in
religion or cultural history classes, but that it should not be on the
science curriculum.

Proponents of intelligent design argue that life on Earth is just too
complex to have arisen without the aid of some kind of designer. ID's
critics point out that its main tenets are highly unscientific and
untestable, and say that it is merely creationism in disguise.

Father Coyne has consistently argued against regarding intelligent design as
scientific. In June he wrote in Catholic magazine The Tablet:

"If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of
modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion
of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe
as a watch that ticks along regularly."

God, he wrote, is not "continually intervening, but rather allows,
participates, loves".

Meanwhile, Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn has re-entered the debate,
also arguing that the biblical story of creation is not a scientific theory.

However, he called for reason in a debate he says has become too
ideological, and seemed to criticism those who would "believe" in evolution
as a dogma. He argues that it should not be seen as "an offense to Darwin's
dignity" for people to offer criticisms of evolutionary theory.

"The theory of evolution is a scientific theory," he said. "What I call
evolutionism is an ideological view that says evolution can explain
everything in the whole development of the cosmos, from the Big Bang to
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony."

In response to the orignal post (and according to my own beliefs, let it be said):
God didn't let her die, nor did She kill her.
People die. Not infrequently they are people that we think would have deserved to live, and we see people that in our eyes deserve death who lives and prospers.

God doesn't allow them to live, just as He didn't allow the original's poster to die. God has nothing to do with it.

Luckily for CD players, I've reasonable evidence the player the manual refers to exists.
You're on a most excellent roll this eve. *bows*

I have always wondered about god and the afterlife.

Ultimately I believe in God and maybe I even believe in the more Christian interpretation of god too. But living in a Christian country and being raised by Christian parents, is that really surprising?
I don’t know why God allows us to suffer and die. Perhaps it’s because without suffering we wouldn’t know what pleasure truly is. However I can’t imagine telling this to the family of someone who after a lifetime was being a good person was suddenly stricken with a debilitating disease, which caused this person’s slow and painful death.

“Sorry, your mother endured years upon years of harsh treatments to try to cure the disease which not also didn’t work but made her suffering even more painful and even in fact slowed down the process of her dying…. But that trip to Disney World a couple years ago was pretty kick ass! Right?”

Maybe God has emotional problems and that’s why God allows people to suffer and die for no reason. Maybe God isn’t the perfect being everyone makes him out to be. Maybe God has low self –esteem because when he was a young God other Gods used to pick on him.
Maybe the reason Satan rebelled was because God was a douche bag.

It would certainly explain things. It would explain why God is so homophobic and why he apparently only talks to people like Pat Robinson and George W. Bush.

In close, God needs therapy.

The way you're making it out is as if those of us who disbelieve in God have stood up and consciously denied a truth.
Bafflingly enough, that's historically been THE CHURCH's STANCE! Still TO THIS DAY, EVEN! :(

Thanks for hangin' in so long - i never get to keep in a thread with you for this much time! *bows*

Just like the good ol' days, no?

If I didn't have pressing matters now, and even more pressing ones in a few hours, I'd stay out and play...

Hopefully, we can do it again, real soon. :)

You are right, though... for some reason, I usually find EVIDENCE OF Straughn, but manage to miss you by a few hours. It's been a blast. Thanks for being 'in on it'. :)

Since you failed to reply to my post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11059137&postcount=4706) previously in reply to yours (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11059057&postcount=4695)... I'll take that as another "Corneliu Maneuver?"
Brand!!!
*nods head emphatically*

Just like the good ol' days, no?

If I didn't have pressing matters now, and even more pressing ones in a few hours, I'd stay out and play...

Hopefully, we can do it again, real soon. :)

You are right, though... for some reason, I usually find EVIDENCE OF Straughn, but manage to miss you by a few hours. It's been a blast. Thanks for being 'in on it'. :)*FLORT*
But evidence of ... me ... can be horribly misinterpreted! :p
I stayed up all night a day ago to get caught up - i also have a peculiar schedule/arrangement, and i'm often not on the same day schedule as some of my favourite posters, such as yourself.
Soon. *bows*

Good point - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/21/id_vatican_not_science/
Intelligent design 'not science', says Vatican astronomer
While Cardinal warns of evolution-as-dogma
By Lucy Sherriff
Published Monday 21st November 2005 10:46

Intelligent Design is not science, and has no place in science lessons, according to the
Vatican's chief astronomer, the Rev. George Coyne. According to the Italian
news agency, ANSA, Father Coyne was speaking informally at a conference in
Florence when he said that intelligent design "isn't science, even though it
pretends to be."

He argued that if it is to be taught in schools, then it should be taught in
religion or cultural history classes, but that it should not be on the
science curriculum.

Proponents of intelligent design argue that life on Earth is just too
complex to have arisen without the aid of some kind of designer. ID's
critics point out that its main tenets are highly unscientific and
untestable, and say that it is merely creationism in disguise.

Father Coyne has consistently argued against regarding intelligent design as
scientific. In June he wrote in Catholic magazine The Tablet:

"If they respect the results of modern science, and indeed the best of
modern biblical research, religious believers must move away from the notion
of a dictator God or a designer God, a Newtonian God who made the universe
as a watch that ticks along regularly."

God, he wrote, is not "continually intervening, but rather allows,
participates, loves".

Meanwhile, Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn has re-entered the debate,
also arguing that the biblical story of creation is not a scientific theory.

However, he called for reason in a debate he says has become too
ideological, and seemed to criticism those who would "believe" in evolution
as a dogma. He argues that it should not be seen as "an offense to Darwin's
dignity" for people to offer criticisms of evolutionary theory.

"The theory of evolution is a scientific theory," he said. "What I call
evolutionism is an ideological view that says evolution can explain
everything in the whole development of the cosmos, from the Big Bang to
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony."
Wasn't there one of the christian propets that said: "Beware of those that never question their faith, for they have closed their mind to God."

Either way, these days, it can be applied to believers in both God and Evolution. ;)

Well the only alternative is for us all to go to hell. God didnt want that so he created a means to save us.
How fitting that is considering he created the means to DAMN us FIRST ... and actually prefers that with the "original sin" bullsh*t.
Love, diluvian style. F*ck that.

Or - of course - he could just change the entry requirements for hell.

Why do you make your god such a weak reflection of man's worst excesses?

Which is nothing to do with what I said. Nice evasion. actually it has everything to do with what you said.

To refresh your memory…

Or - of course - he could just change the entry requirements for hell. and to which I replied that he did. With the sacrifice of Jesus, many rituals and burnt offerings were no longer needed. To be forgiven of your sins, all you now need to do is pray and ask.

No. It was not a choice, at either 'end' of the spectrum. I'm pretty sure you and I are not familiar with one another, outside of NS... so I fail to see how you can speak with such assurance about the events you claim happened in MY life... you choose when you get up to start you day, you choose what classes to take in College, you can even choose to have others make choices for you. You can choose to test God, and you can choose to interpret anything you want anyway you want. You can choose to see the evils in the world as proof of lack of God or you can choose to see those evils as something to stand against. When it comes down to it, it’s nothing but choice. You say you lost your faith, Faith cannot be taken from you unless you CHOOSE to release your faith.

I chose to close my mind and heart to God, but I also chose to reopen them.


If you mean, some of us are willing to believe anything we are told without question - then I'd agrre that some of us DO fit that description, and some don't.

I've read a number of 'scruptures', which describe a wealth of different versions of the 'truth' about 'god'. I see nothing to make the Christian Bible any MORE rleiable than any of those other texts... so I see no reason to believe that the Chritian Bible alone, can possibly describe the 'guidelines'. and when have I ever said “The Bible Alone” is all you need? Read though my posts and you won’t find any instance where I said all you need is “The Bible.”

None of which lessens the fact that this 'god' created a flawed design, a deliberate vengeance to enact upon that flawed design, and then sets the requirements for avoiding that vengeance, as being more easily led... He created a beautiful system where we, his creations, are free to choose our life. We can choose to attempt the path to be with Him, or we can choose to turn our backs on Him. Both goals are known and are interpreted in many ways. However, the ultimate choice is still on us.

If I were not already an Atheist, and I could choose, I would reject such a 'god'.and as I said, you already made your choice. I am not judging you on your choice for as you said, I do not know you, nor do I know what you went through. I am only telling you that the choice is there and it can be so easily made, that most are not aware they made it.

Wasn't there one of the christian propets that said: "Beware of those that never question their faith, for they have closed their mind to God."

Either way, these days, it can be applied to believers in both God and Evolution. ;)

Very true that.

It's interesting that so many people think of the Catholic Church as one of the most dogmatic and conservative branches of Christianity, when in a number of cases it is just the opposite.

first of all, like all who argue and use the bible as tools to show why they disbelieve. You are taking bits and pieces out of context.

So, let's see if I have this straight.

Inspired wisdom is good while philosophical wisdom (e.g., Greek) is bad since it is not from god.

"Do not swear at all" but still "swear by his name." This still seems contradictory even with your interpretation.

Jesus is the final sacrifice so the previous sacrifices are not important. This does not remove the contradiction for the Jews and Biblical statement about the "final sacrifice" is very ambiguous.

This does not seem as simple a set of guidelines as you depict. When interpretation is needed to try to guess the author's meaning, I would say the guidelines are not simple to follow at all.

Couldn't he...like...Not send us to hell? I mean, we don't even have to go to heaven, not that big a deal. But, seriously, isn't there some non-eternal-torment realm we could go to?
Oh, quitcherbitchin' and take it like a cabin boy. :p

C'mon, just about everyone else here is doing it! What are ya - chicken? ;)

[QUOTE=IL Ruffino]I was thinking about a friend I lost to breast cancer awhile back and how she didn't deserve to die. She had an asshole husband for many years. He was abusive, and when they got divorced, he would go to their sons wrestling meet.. with his bimbo girlfriend.

She was always kind and a good listener to anyone who talked to her. Since she was a teacher, when she died, everyone lost a good friend. We all were affected by her.

Her son is graduating soon, her daughter is getting married this summer. She was happy and upbeat, even with cancer and going through chemo.

Well.. I started thinking why would God let her die? She was a good person. She shouldn't have been taken, it wasn't her time.

I wasn't relisios to begin with.. but I thought there was some sort of higher being (God). But I don't feel that way anymore. What God would do that to someone?

Do you think there is a God?

There is definately a God ...Just look around you ,think about the fact that the atmosphere that we live and breathe in is constructed in the perfect way to suport human life! I watched two movies that completely changed my out-look on life 1 Unlocking the Mysteries of Life and 2 The Priveledged Planet!..... And get this they were both done by MAJOR evolutionist scientists so its not just a bunch of phony lies that a bunch of (creationists put together to win you to their viewpoint!!! In general I would sugjest these movies to anyone! .........Oh and by the way,about your friend maybe God was trying to releave her of her earthy troubles. Any way if she was a christian she is in a far better place without the pain of breast cancer or the heartache of having to deal with her ex-husband...Sincerely the Creator of Wethanin

Truth be told, I was on the phone with my girlfriend and didn't want to respond to a long post like that one while talking to her.
Make sure you bring up your attitude about inflicting punishment on someone who doesn't appreciate your version of "love".
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11058931&postcount=4681

That'll work out, of course ... you know, even better than the Dutch Oven technique of mettle!

snippity

You don't give god enough credit. You think he -had- to have someone die to change the rules of heaven and hell? He created heaven, he created hell, he created the rules. He could've changed them in the blink of an eye.

Why didn't he just have the rules to be like that originally, though? It's a very inefficient way of doing things, having them be really unfair (everyone has original sin and goes to hell regardless for eternity) and then having to kill his son to change it.

God's way more powerful and intelligent than you think. Anything you think he's done or has had to do through scripture or dogma or anything else, he could've done in a much more efficient way. He's GOD. Gee Oh Dee. Big G Dawg. Omnipotent, unparalleled in his power and understanding of the universe, considering he created it.

If anything he's just messing with you because things got boring and he decided to put a little flash in the pan.

True, but talking to someone does a lot for convincing them you exist. That should be the first thing he tries to deal with.
*FLORT*
You know, for the most part of my "attendance" here, i was a ghost - irking people who'd note i was posting while i was simultaneously listed as "offline".

"Believe in me based on nothing but the words written in a 2,000 year old book, and you can come in." a lot simpler than before.

That's fucking pathetic. How the fuck do you know when I did or didn't make a choice? You believe in God, and "weep" for those who don't. It must be so easy for you to sit at your keyboard and tell those who don't believe what fate awaits them, and how it's their fault. How wonderfully convenient. I never said I knew, I only said it was as simple as making a choice so easy most don’t know when they made it. Please referre to when I posted the Fate for anyone who doesn’t believe? I await that proof. You may link them here.

"Man, you're going to Hell and it's your fault because you made the wrong choice." when did I mention anyone going to Hell? Please link to those posts.

What fucking choice? When was I ever consciously aware of a choice that I had to make in order to get into Heaven? maybe you were not Consciously aware of the choices you made. But they were there.
When has God ever directly proven himself to me? repeatedly. But you will see, feel, and hear those proofs when you honestly choose to.

NEVER. He has never once contacted me in a direct fashion to prove himself. Because of this, I don't believe in him, and thusly -- those of you who do think I'm going to Hell. It's absolutely despicable how you can honestly stand up and say that casting non-believers into eternal torment on the basis of disbelief alone is righteous. and thus your choice was made. See how simple that was. And you know what? You can keep making this choice as long as you wish, for as long as you live.

Religions have come and gone. Christianity is not exempt from this rule.and I bet you choose to await this time with all your heart. ;)

You're right. God is exactly like a parent from the bible!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (kill rebellious children)
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Score, i say ... verily.
Ka-POW! :sniper:

So God sends us to Hell for decisions we're unaware we made?
Dunno about Hell. but you won't get into the Kingdom of Heaven if you Choose to turn away from Him.

I prefer to think of it as "invention" instead of "intervention." And what exactly about it inspires awe in you? How would you describe that feeling of awe? To what would you ascribe those feelings of awe?What makes me respond with awe? Well, from the most basic point, the natural human interest in light...same thing that draws man to fire. Seeing it in such a unique coloration, as well as in a location unexpected, creates awe.
From the personal side, the beauty. I do not accept that a god has anything to do with this beauty, so it is really a moot argument, as you will say that God did it, and I will say prove it, and I prefer my arguments progressive (see Straughns Monty Python quote):)

Yes, the physical universe has laws, and physical manifestations obey those laws. But even the physical universe allows a bit of wiggle room (consider the "Uncertainty Principle" of quantum physics).hmm...well, I've never even looked into quantum physics, so I won't pretend that I have any idea what you speak of...

It is my belief that the entire universe was shaped out of that little bit of wiggle room. Bit by bit, piece by piece, minute by minute.Again, without any knowledge of this principle you speak of, it seems like a cop out (yes, even science uses cop outs). Basically saying "we don't understand this, so here is a principle that explains it, but it doesn't really"

The miraculous and supernatural events described in the Bible, of course, are a different story. But as stories, I believe we have much to learn from them, if we choose to.The stories, from a literary pov, are good. They teach lessons well, and are inventive. I don't hold them to be true stories any more than those contained in Lord of the Rings or any other fictional book, however...
Although, interestingly enough, several of the stories have something of a scientific theory that could prove them to be atleast a little correct.



Fair enough. I can stop using the word "soul" in this context if it makes you uncomfortable. Other than word choice, we seem to agree on this point: that "the mind" relies on something above and beyond the purely physical aspect of the brain.It isn't that I'm uncomfortable with the term or concept of "soul". My issue with its use is that I find there to be a difference between the "mind" and the "soul" concepts. The mind is a fact, so far as my research has shown. It is our conscious thought. It is essentially the direct product of electricity and chemicals in our brains. I have found no evidence for the soul, outside of religion. The two are similar, but soul is a religious term for something breathed into us from God.



Good. Many people do. However, I don't believe the "cosmic finger wag" has anything to do with God. That is purely the invention of humans.That I will agree with more than anything.



It seems that we generally believe the same things. I like using the word "God," because it is short, simple, and to the point. I could give a damn that other people have usurped the word to imply a whole host of unrelated, irrelevant, and unworkable ideas.We do seem to have similar ideas in general. The only thing that seperates us is that you believe in a higher power that has or had some sort of control. I believe in no such thing.

There is no alternative.
For the supposed source of *all* creation, your "god" doesn't seem particularly inventive, clever, mature, or adept at adjustment.
What a let down.

Unless of course, you admit that it's your personal failing of alternative.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/265.gif

And how, pray tell, does one "listen" for or "pay attention" to God?honestly? by not testing Him. don't Look for the proof and then you will see it.

I haven't been offered any proof, other than by folks who seem to debunk the idea of a God. Oh, my bad, they were agents of Satan...they try to debunk the idea of God. but God cannot be proven that he doesn't exsist. and, to be fair, He cannot be proven to Exsist. that's where Faith comes in.

honestly? by not testing Him. don't Look for the proof and then you will see it.

they try to debunk the idea of God. but God cannot be proven that he doesn't exsist. and, to be fair, He cannot be proven to Exsist. that's where Faith comes in.

You can see the light of Cthulhu in the same manner - just accept that he's your lord and ruler and you will see it. Some would say it's just a made-up thing from the Necronomicon, but that's where faith comes in.

That's all I was asking. No need to be sarcastic about it.Well, to quote Eutrusca on this (notably absent BTW :( ) :

http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/5779/ultimatrout7nq.gif

Agreed, actually - which is why it's important to point out what image we get of it - be it Yahweh or Ganeesha, for example ... as murderer or lover, as cellkeep or benevolence. Again, something Saint Curie was getting at.
Seriously, you work w/the material you've got :(actually, no. Saint Curie was asking if Christians acknowledge that if Their God did all those horrible things and tried to force... well, me anyway, to place judgement on God. Refusing to take my position that I am not, in any way, able to judge God.

I've always stated, that I acknowledge what God has done and all that God has done... nothing more, nothing less.

I wasn't. I was being truthful. You are living proof of the Parable of the 4 soils for you sound like the seeds the fell onto shallow soil and die shortly after blooming. As Jesus stated "They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word." Either you belong in that group or among the group that fell into thorns and was choked off. In truth, I believe you are the third group.
Wow, Corneliu, i'm impressed ... an actual real-life application of a biblical parable - HERE - BY YOU! *bows*

honestly? by not testing Him. don't Look for the proof and then you will see it.

I see signs of Porn and Chocolate everywhere. In any case both of the above predate Christianity by millennia. Aha! God of Porn and Choco!

God and Yahweh should have a slugfest, "Worms"-style. I'm so addicted to the game lately. :D

For the supposed source of *all* creation, your "god" doesn't seem particularly inventive, clever, mature, or adept at adjustment.
What a let down.

Unless of course, you admit that it's your personal failing of alternative.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/265.gif
Now now, don't go blame God for Corneliu's closemindedness. Even the Christian God isn't as closeminded as that. ;)

actually, no. Saint Curie was asking if Christians acknowledge that if Their God did all those horrible things and tried to force... well, me anyway, to place judgement on God. Refusing to take my position that I am not, in any way, able to judge God.
Well, i wasn't inferring at ANY point that that was the only thing he was talking about, which is why i used the qualifier "something". I've got a post or two about it, really.

Now now, don't go blame God for Corneliu's closemindedness. Even the Christian God isn't as closeminded as that. ;)
*FLORT*
Hahahahahahaha!!!
*bows*
I'm keeping this one. Thank you. :)

Once saved, always saved, my friend... what once he has gathered up, no power can take from his hand.

I'm in... heathen or no.
I dunno about that stance Grave... while he does hold you dear, you can reject Him and kick him out of your life. you can take your judgement/opinions and hold them higher than God's and that would be a grave offense.

(not saying you did, but being accepted and Baptised/Reborn/Forgiven does not mean you get a "Blank Check" on sinning.)

After reading through what I've missed in this thread since I was gone enjoying the beach, I have come to the conclusion there is only one possible action I can do...


*breaks into the circular logic dance*

in other news, there is a fly in my room. I attribue that fly to this thread. And having Rosemary's Baby on.

A lot of the guidelines are contradictory so how could anyone follow them faithfully?

Should I try to become wise?
Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
1 Corinthians 1:19
For I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Should I swear oaths?
Deuteronomy 6:13
Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
Matthew 5:34
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven for it is God's throne; nor by the earth for it is his footstool.

What should I sacrifice on the day of the new moon?
Numbers 28:11
And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot.
Ezekiel 46:6
And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram.
Verily i say unto thee ... you ROCK. *bows*
But remember, Flanders could handle it! :p

Wasn't there one of the christian propets that said: "Beware of those that never question their faith, for they have closed their mind to God."

Either way, these days, it can be applied to believers in both God and Evolution. ;)



You say that Inteligent Design,(Creation),lets call it by its real name, should not be tought in public schools ! I say that evolution should not be tought in public schools either after all it's just a lousy THEORY that has absolutely NO scientific proof! The only reason that it is still tought is because the anti Creationists can't come up with anything better!!! Sincerely The Creator of Wethanin:mad:

So God sends us to Hell for decisions we're unaware we made?
!
That makes precisely the kind of sense it takes to believe in this particular religion.

You say that Inteligent Design,(Creation),lets call it by its real name, should not be tought in public schools ! I say that evolution should not be tought in public schools either after all it's just a lousy THEORY that has absolutely NO scientific proof! The only reason that it is still tought is because the anti Creationists can't come up with anything better!!! Sincerely The Creator of Wethanin:mad:

There is more evidence ( evidence is not proof mind you ) on the side of Evolution, than there is on creationism. I find it pretty safe to say that only Evolution can be proven, if it ever will be, and Creationism can never be proven. You can't prove that an invisible man made organisms.

Go away please.

You say that Inteligent Design,(Creation),lets call it by its real name, should not be tought in public schools ! I say that evolution should not be tought in public schools either after all it's just a lousy THEORY that has absolutely NO scientific proof! The only reason that it is still tought is because the anti Creationists can't come up with anything better!!! Sincerely The Creator of Wethanin:mad:
There are scientific proof that supports the evolution theory.
However, like any scientific theory it can, and should, be questioned.

On the other hand, the questioning should be on a scientific basis, not an ideological or spiritual basis.

So, let's see if I have this straight.

Inspired wisdom is good while philosophical wisdom (e.g., Greek) is bad since it is not from god.no. more like... Guns are tools because they allow people to stand on equal footing in any confict, like Wisdom and Intelligence. One can use a gun to protect innocents, to defend rights and freedoms. or one can use a gun to rob a bank, or rape someone. or they can use a gun like a toy. the foolishness referred to is how it's used. To use hard earned wisdom and intelligence to prove or disprove God is a waste of talent.

"Do not swear at all" but still "swear by his name." This still seems contradictory even with your interpretation.hmmm... I swear my life and love to God. but I won't say "By Heaven I will..." or "I Swear on my...." that's what it's referring to. putting something else above God.

Jesus is the final sacrifice so the previous sacrifices are not important. This does not remove the contradiction for the Jews and Biblical statement about the "final sacrifice" is very ambiguous.Jesus's sacrifice makes any others after Him unnecessary.

and remember, I believe the Jews don't worship Jesus as the Son of God. For details on the Jewish faith, you need to ask one more knowledgable than I am.

This does not seem as simple a set of guidelines as you depict. When interpretation is needed to try to guess the author's meaning, I would say the guidelines are not simple to follow at all.that is why I've always said, when you read the Bible, you need to pray. during times when I needed answers, I've come across verses that gave different meanings and insights then when I've read them before. some were heartening, others warned that I was close to sinning. but reading the Bible alone isn't the answer.

I grow spiritually. In essence, I am growing up but spiritually.Well, i hope so. That's an honourable and particularly necessary endeavour. I would applaud you on that.
Also, there is no need to shout nor use foul words in a sentence.Well, it's all part of artistic license. I'm sure god didn't REALLY NEED to do all that murdering and dick-waving, but it was part of le package totale.
;)

You say that Inteligent Design,(Creation),lets call it by its real name, should not be tought in public schools ! I say that evolution should not be tought in public schools either after all it's just a lousy THEORY that has absolutely NO scientific proof! The only reason that it is still tought is because the anti Creationists can't come up with anything better!!! Sincerely The Creator of Wethanin:mad:
I would suggest a biology textbook for any 100 level course. Or even middle school, for that matter.

Creationism/ID is in no way a scientific theory, as it is not falsifiable, and equally not able to be proven. Welcome to science...it doesn't prove what is, it proves what is not.

And evolution is one of the most widely tested, and reinforced, theories in science. It has one of the strongest backings of any theory.

Remeber, even gravity is a theory :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=JuNii]no. more like... Guns are tools because they allow people to stand on equal footing in any confict, like Wisdom and Intelligence. One can use a gun to protect innocents, to defend rights and freedoms. or one can use a gun to rob a bank, or rape someone. or they can use a gun like a toy. the foolishness referred to is how it's used. To use hard earned wisdom and intelligence to prove or disprove God is a waste of talent.
QUOTE]

To prove or disprove anything is not a waste of talent. To not question, or try to prove or disprove something that affects billions of lives is a waste.

He created a beautiful system where we, his creations, are free to choose our life. We can choose to attempt the path to be with Him, or we can choose to turn our backs on Him. Both goals are known and are interpreted in many ways. However, the ultimate choice is still on us.

You can hold on to an irrational belief in spite of lacking evidence for the belief or you can give up on the belief.

From Willing Belief and the Norm of Truth:
For example, a young American devoted to Christianity may sincerely believe
that his religion offers the only path to paradise. He may also have learned from his
comparative religion class that were he to have been raised in, say, Iran he would have
sincerely believed that Islam provides the only path to paradise. So, he realizes that his
Christian beliefs are accidental (i.e., an accident of his birthplace). Yet despite
knowledge that his belief is accidental, he maintains his belief that Christianity offers the
exclusive path to paradise.

Well, i hope so. That's an honourable and particularly necessary endeavour. I would applaud you on that.
Well, it's all part of artistic license. I'm sure god didn't REALLY NEED to do all that murdering and dick-waving, but it was part of le package totale.
;)
What would a god be without a good ol' dick-waving? Its just a shame the Judeochristian God has never taken it as literally as the Greek and Roman gods. They were a horny bunch, they were.

Of course I do. You've made your decision, and you aren't going to let reality bias it. After all, it's a well known fact that 'reality' has a deliberate Atheist bias.
Hahahahaha!! *FLORT*
*shades of Colbert*

You don't give god enough credit. You think he -had- to have someone die to change the rules of heaven and hell? He created heaven, he created hell, he created the rules. He could've changed them in the blink of an eye.he could've. why not take away free will and reduce everyone back into primates? no knowledge of Good or Evil... perfect. we can all sit around picking our noses and throwing feces at each other in pure bliss.

but that's not how God works. we (man) chose to sin and so we (man) gotta live with it.

Why didn't he just have the rules to be like that originally, though? It's a very inefficient way of doing things, having them be really unfair (everyone has original sin and goes to hell regardless for eternity) and then having to kill his son to change it.some would theorize that Life on Earth is a test of our faith. I've heard some say that this life is purgatory and how we live here would determine wether or not we get to assend to Eden while others stay untill they get it right. I've even came across some that say the original sin was so bad, so horrific to God that he needed an unblemish sacrifice to wash it away. which theory is right? I can't say.

God's way more powerful and intelligent than you think. Anything you think he's done or has had to do through scripture or dogma or anything else, he could've done in a much more efficient way. He's GOD. Gee Oh Dee. Big G Dawg. Omnipotent, unparalleled in his power and understanding of the universe, considering he created it.your point? remember, most scriptures were were written by mortals. (yes I admit that. I don't believe that God sat there with a pen writing things down.) and thus limited to mortal understanding. that's why I always included prayer when I read the Bible.

If anything he's just messing with you because things got boring and he decided to put a little flash in the pan.quite the contradiction here. your past statements invalidate this one... or vice versa. I'll let you decide for yourself.

You can see the light of Cthulhu in the same manner - just accept that he's your lord and ruler and you will see it. Some would say it's just a made-up thing from the Necronomicon, but that's where faith comes in.
and if you hold faith in this cthulu, fine. follow him and I'll see you in the end times.

I see signs of Porn and Chocolate everywhere. In any case both of the above predate Christianity by millennia. Aha! God of Porn and Choco!

God and Yahweh should have a slugfest, "Worms"-style. I'm so addicted to the game lately. :Dthen wallow in your... mmm dark chocolate... :p

God and Yahweh slugging it out... using what? a mirror?

Well, i wasn't inferring at ANY point that that was the only thing he was talking about, which is why i used the qualifier "something". I've got a post or two about it, really.
I agree tho. it's not for us (man) to define God, but for us to live a life pleasing to the Lord.

unfortunatly, tho. What God want's can be interpreted in so many ways... :rolleyes:

no. more like... Guns are tools because they allow people to stand on equal footing in any confict, like Wisdom and Intelligence. One can use a gun to protect innocents, to defend rights and freedoms. or one can use a gun to rob a bank, or rape someone. or they can use a gun like a toy. the foolishness referred to is how it's used. To use hard earned wisdom and intelligence to prove or disprove God is a waste of talent.


To prove or disprove anything is not a waste of talent. To not question, or try to prove or disprove something that affects billions of lives is a waste.note: I said to prove or disprove God is a waste of talent. but if you think it's a worthy endevor, then go ahead. I won't even think of stopping you.

How do you *ahem* know? Jesus isn't recognized by the majority of humanity as a Messiah in any way shape or form. How can you possibly prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

Face it, you have no proof whatsoever that your God is any truer than any other bevy of "true" Gods which have their directly spoken word in some form (the Koran, the Vedas in a way as well), or divine prophets (Buddha, Zoroaster).
Actually, the bible pretty specifically points out its god as the most jealous of the bunch.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.
23:27 I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
Probably enough a-material for now :p
http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/lurk.gif

My question is this.

How can the bible be accurate when it was written thousands of years after Jesus was crucified? The bible was written in the middle ages, so there is no way that the stories of biblical times could be straight and not altared. Church's of the time created and used the Bible as a tool to control the masses during a time of uncertainty, much like today.


Im not saying that there isn't a god, just how can we be so sure that the bible is fact, and not fiction?

What God want's can be interpreted in so many ways... :rolleyes:
I read a good quote on that, though it doesn't fit with my own beliefs, but still.

"The words of God falls to the ground like rain, and all our understanding of Him is therefore muddy."

Oww that is a really difficult reference. :confused:

Are you sure it's not Star-Trekkism (albeit with substance somewhere in there?).
Oh no! Now i have to chase down YOUR reference? :eek:

I read a good quote on that, though it doesn't fit with my own beliefs, but still.

"The words of God falls to the ground like rain, and all our understanding of Him is therefore muddy."

But the idea is still same right? He doesn't want violence, just peace amongst each other :fluffle:

You can hold on to an irrational belief in spite of lacking evidence for the belief or you can give up on the belief.

and that is a choice. I have never argued for or against any proof of or against god.

you can hold to the Faith that there is Intelligent life on other planets, even tho no evidence has been found. you can hold to the belief that we are not alone. even tho there is nothing to indicate that.

We are still searching for other forms of intelligent life and each year that search grows harder and more discouraging. but I won't ridicule nor will I judge anyone to says that there is life out there.

Aw, no-one called me a heretic or satan-worshiper, nor ridiculed me for believing in God. And here's been looking forward to the debate...
Either you are very tolerant or you just didn't notice my post. ;)


I thought all religions were True, for a given value of Truth.
Perhaps you had a more sensible post than some others around here!

I read a good quote on that, though it doesn't fit with my own beliefs, but still.

"The words of God falls to the ground like rain, and all our understanding of Him is therefore muddy."
I like that. :p

My question is this.

How can the bible be accurate when it was written thousands of years after Jesus was crucified? The bible was written in the middle ages, so there is no way that the stories of biblical times could be straight and not altared. Church's of the time created and used the Bible as a tool to control the masses during a time of uncertainty, much like today.


Im not saying that there isn't a god, just how can we be so sure that the bible is fact, and not fiction?
The old testament was written thousands of years before Jesus, the NT written in a few centuries following Jesus's death. The bible was pretty well decided on by the 4th century. Not even up to the fall of Rome.

Your essential argument is accurate, and there are translations to consider, but you are off on the original dates. your point stands, just might want to fix that before someone else jumps on it.

Im not saying that there isn't a god, just how can we be so sure that the bible is fact, and not fiction?
There are two schools of thought on that.
One says: It is written, therefore it is fact.
The other says: You can't be sure.*


*This is further divided into the believers 1, the believers 2 and the non-believers.
The believers 1 (mostly) thinks that the Bible is fictional but still serves as a guideline to understand God, but that you have to find the answers yourself.

The believers 2 (mostly) thinks that the Bible isn't fictional, but that it only serves as a guide to understanding God and you have to find the answers yourself.

The non-believers think that the Bible is fictional and that God doesn't exist.


Actually, come to think of it, there's more than these versions too, but if I'd tried to list them all I could go on ad infinitum.

I have always wondered about god and the afterlife.

Ultimately I believe in God and maybe I even believe in the more Christian interpretation of god too. But living in a Christian country and being raised by Christian parents, is that really surprising?
I don’t know why God allows us to suffer and die. Perhaps it’s because without suffering we wouldn’t know what pleasure truly is. However I can’t imagine telling this to the family of someone who after a lifetime was being a good person was suddenly stricken with a debilitating disease, which caused this person’s slow and painful death.

“Sorry, your mother endured years upon years of harsh treatments to try to cure the disease which not also didn’t work but made her suffering even more painful and even in fact slowed down the process of her dying…. But that trip to Disney World a couple years ago was pretty kick ass! Right?”

Maybe God has emotional problems and that’s why God allows people to suffer and die for no reason. Maybe God isn’t the perfect being everyone makes him out to be. Maybe God has low self –esteem because when he was a young God other Gods used to pick on him.
Maybe the reason Satan rebelled was because God was a douche bag.

It would certainly explain things. It would explain why God is so homophobic and why he apparently only talks to people like Pat Robinson and George W. Bush.

In close, God needs therapy.
He's apparently co-dependent, and therefore needs some tough-love.

There are two schools of thought on that.
One says: It is written, therefore it is fact.
The other says: You can't be sure.*


*This is further divided into the believers 1, the believers 2 and the non-believers.
The believers 1 (mostly) thinks that the Bible is fictional but still serves as a guideline to understand God, but that you have to find the answers yourself.

The believers 2 (mostly) thinks that the Bible isn't fictional, but that it only serves as a guide to understanding God and you have to find the answers yourself.

The non-believers think that the Bible is fictional and that God doesn't exist.


Actually, come to think of it, there's more than these versions too, but if I'd tried to list them all I could go on ad infinitum.there is another major group. Believers 3. those that believe that the Bible is FACT and must be strictly followed.

You say that Inteligent Design,(Creation),lets call it by its real name, should not be tought in public schools ! I say that evolution should not be tought in public schools either after all it's just a lousy THEORY that has absolutely NO scientific proof! The only reason that it is still tought is because the anti Creationists can't come up with anything better!!! Sincerely The Creator of Wethanin:mad:
Say, did you bother to read much else on this particular thread?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11060539&postcount=4854

there is another major group. Believers 3. those that believe that the Bible is FACT and must be strictly followed.
But that was covered in the first school.
Or at least, that was what I meant.

There are scientific proof that supports the evolution theory.
However, like any scientific theory it can, and should, be questioned.

On the other hand, the questioning should be on a scientific basis, not an ideological or spiritual basis.True.... for reference, peruse this:

I.D. Rigs Its Own Trial

Still smarting from the shellacking handed them in the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision, the neo-creationists appear to be manufacturing their own feel-good opportunities now. Witness this press release:

Intelligent Design Critics Invited to Put ID on Trial


WHAT: Critics of intelligent design will cross-examine intelligent design by asking its leading proponents the difficult questions in a Q-and-A format.

WHEN: Friday, May 12 at 7:30 p.m.

WHERE: Sutherland Auditorium at Biola University in La Mirada, Calif.

BACKGROUND: The question of intelligent design (ID) has flooded the news this year with the Dover, Penn. trial over the place of ID in public education. With many questions still left unanswered about ID theory, this event will allow the public access to hear from top ID experts and its critics.

Panelists representing ID include Mike Behe, Professor of Biochemistry, Lehigh University and Senior Fellow, Discovery Institute; Paul Nelson, Adjunct Professor, Biola University; Guillermo Gonzales, Assistant Research Professor of Astronomy, Iowa State University; Jonathan Wells, Senior Fellow, Discovery Institute; and Steve Meyer, Director and Senior Fellow of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute, Seattle.

Those cross-examining the panelists will include: Antony Flew, noted philosopher; Keith Morrison of Dateline NBC; and faculty from Cal State Fullerton: Bruce H. Weber, Ph.D. Professor of Biochemistry; James R. Hofmann, Ph.D. Professor and Chair, Liberal Studies Department; and Craig M. Nelson, Ph.D. Lecturer, Department of Comparative Religion.

Asking ID's advocates to answer some hard questions (Can you state in testable, scientific terms what the "theory" of ID theory is? How would you seek to disprove it? What evidence and arguments positively assert ID rather than pointing to supposed weaknesses in evolutionary explanations? and so on) is always a good idea. But there are plenty of reasons to think that it won't happen at this event, either.

[More:]

The venue: That's Biola University, named for the fatal hemorrhagic disease--whoops, sorry, that's Ebola (not currently a seat of higher learning). It turns out that "Biola" is an acronym for Bible Institute of Los Angeles, the name under which it was founded in 1908. And here's a fun fact gathered from Wikipedia:

In 1909, the Institute published a set of books called The Fundamentals, which was a series of essays defending the traditional conservative interpretation of the Bible in response to the growing influence of liberal interpretations. The term "fundamentalism" is derived from this book series. (However, it should be noted that the current ethos of the University is not fundamentalist, but evangelical.)

Biola sponsored a conference in 2004 on "ID and The Future of Science," an event at which speakers willing to advance that I.D . had no place in the future of science were rather lacking. I mention all this only to establish that Biola seems to be a place with an established perspective on evolution and creationism. "Putting ID on trial" there would be a bit like having alligators pass judgment on a crocodile: expect a sympathetic hearing.

The framing: The panel is presented as an opportunity to finally, finally confront the ID community with the serious questions that have hovered over the subject--for the advocates to confront their critics head-on and prove their case that ID is scientifically respectable. But this is a fiction. ID was literally given its day in court in Kitzmiller v. Dover, and it lost. The tough questions were asked there--as they were in other places at other times. Behe took the stand, testifying for the inclusion of ID in the curriculum, and he was confident that he had nailed all the objections (that is, until the verdict came in). In short, all these A-list ID speakers
http://www.biola.edu/id/speakers06.cfm
have had the chance to make their case before and they've failed. My expectation is that they will therefore either continue to peddle the same unconvincing nonsense.

The critics: I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the questioners, but am skeptical of their qualifications and readiness to participate in this event. First, notice that three of the ID panelists are or were scientists (Behe and Gonzalez, and I'm giving Wells the benefit of a doubt), and two are philosophers/historians (and even Meyer has a background in geophysics). His questioners, on the other hand, consist of one biochemist (Weber), a journalist, and three philosophers/theologians. The critics do not sound well qualified to push the scientific argument against ID, and if the ID panel responds with a lot of scientistic sophistry, I don't think they'll be called on it.

That matters because the scientific standing of ID is the only root issue. My hunch is that the discussion will actually detour into whether ID is religious (they'll say no) and philosophical hair-splitting about evolution (not relevant). ID won't deserve to be taught in a science classroom, however, until (a) it actually casts itself in scientific terms and not religious/supernatural ones, and (b) actually constitutes enough of a theory for there to be something to teach, and not just use as a cudgel for unfairly bashing evolution. And to that end, note Behe's own testimony during Kitzmiller:

On cross-examination, Professor Behe admitted that: "There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred." (22:22-23 (Behe)). Additionally, Professor Behe conceded that there are no peer-reviewed papers supporting his claims that complex molecular systems, like the bacterial flagellum, the blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system, were intelligently designed. (21:61-62 (complex molecular systems), 23:4-5 (immune system), and 22:124-25 (blood-clotting cascade) (Behe)). In that regard, there are no peer-reviewed articles supporting Professor Behe's argument that certain complex molecular structures are "irreducibly complex." (21:62, 22:124-25 (Behe)). In addition to failing to produce papers in peer-reviewed journals, ID also features no scientific research or testing.

Worse, I'm sorry to say, is that the individual questioners don't all seem to have the rock-solid pro-evolution credentials one might hope to see in an aggressive panel. Bruce H. Weber, the sole scientist among the questioners, may be firmly opposed to ID. But I notice that his books published by MIT Press seem to focus on the idea that evolutionary theory is incomplete. The MIT Press's description of Entropy, Information, and Evolution refers to "the current crisis in evolutionary theory" (what?), and the one for Evolution at a Crossroads describes the search for a more solid framework for evolutionary biology as well as a more solid philosophy of science" (again, what?). Perhaps I'm misjudging, but nothing would make the ID clan happier than to simultaneously discuss weaknesses of evolution and a need to "broaden" the philosophy of science beyond simple materialism and empiricism.

Philosopher Antony Flew, famous as an atheist for most of his career, briefly became a convert to ID a while ago, before suddenly recanting (as reported here
http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=369
, he said, "I now realize that I have made a fool of myself by believing that there were no presentable theories of the development of inanimate matter up to the first living creature capable of reproduction"). I don't know his current position but his skeptical credentials on this issue are tattered.

James R. Hofmann filed a statement opposing the proposed anti-evolution changes to Kansas educational science standards, which is good. On the other hand, he also authored this piece about the difficulties of referring to evolution as "fact"; it's honest work and his heart is in the right place, but creationists love to seize on this kind of semantic tangle as a smokescreen. I'm not sure what the relevant interests or credentials of Craig M. Nelson and Keith Morrison are.

In summary, there is no real reason to think that this panel will serve as anything except another staged event for helping the ID gang put out their usual talking points. Mr. Fox, when you're done guarding the henhouse, just leave the keys on the hall table, thanks.

Update (5/8): Jim Hofmann was good enough in comments to send this link
http://www.ksde.org/outcomes/sciencerevieweckhardtweber.pdf
to an article that he and Bruce Weber wrote in response to Jonathan Wells, " The Fact of Evolution: Implications for Science Education" (pdf). To quote from its abstract:

Creationists who object to evolution in the science curriculum of public schools often cite Jonathan Well's book Icons of Evolution in their support (Wells 2000). In the third chapter of his book Wells claims that neither paleontological nor molecular evidence supports the thesis that the history of life is an evolutionary process of descent from preexisting ancestors. We argue that Wells inappropriately relies upon ambiguities inherent in the term 'Darwinian' and the phrase 'Darwin's theory'. Furthermore, he does not accurately distinguish between the overwhelming evidence that supports the thesis of common descent and controversies that pertain to causal mechanisms such as natural selection. We also argue that Wells' attempts to undermine the evidence in support of common descent are flawed and his characterization of the relevant data is misleading.

Good for them for having written this. And I hope they get the chance to be as effective in debunking the IDists' nonsense on Friday.
-
More on the Upcoming I.D. Panel

Comments are still accumulating on my previous entry about the panel of "intelligent design" defenders who will be taking questions from critics at Biola University this Friday. However, I thought it was worth posting this update separately, just because of its own interest.

Michael Shermer, our Skeptic columnist, read the entry and sent this message:

I just read your recent blog on the big ID conference coming up at Biola. I know all about this because they invited me to participate, sort of.

A couple of months ago the organizer asked if I would like to come participate in the conference, but that I would have to sit in the audience and be allowed to ask one question. When he told me who was participating on the panels, pro and con, I explained, politely, that I know far more about both ID and evolutionary theory than any of the so-called critics of ID, and that in fact I have debated Dembski, Nelson, and Meyer at universities around the country. His response to this was that they really wanted a balanced approach that was more like a panel discussion and press conference, and not just a debate, and that they wanted both sides to be properly represented.

I again explained that not only have I debated all these guys, and have a book coming out in August that presents all of their arguments and all of the critiques of those arguments, but that I even have a powerpoint presentation ready to go that presents their arguments one by one, numbered, labeled, and with pretty pictures of flagella, which I had recently presented for the Caltech biology department. And I told him that I thought his so-called "critics" were hardly the A-list of ID skeptics. I even told him that I'd do it for free, and that Biola is less than an hour's drive from my home.

But no, he explained, I was not quite what they are looking for in a panelist. I'm quite sure I understand what he means.... So your intuitions about the real intent of this event are spot on.

---
Thanks to Scientific American for that. :)

Say, did you bother to read much else on this particular thread?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11060539&postcount=4854
read the thread you intend on posting on? That's crazy-talk my friend!

*Ignores the fact that I, too, didn't bother to read most of the thread*

and that is a choice. I have never argued for or against any proof of or against god.

My point was that choosing to not follow the Christian path could also be viewed as choosing to be rational. :)

Nevertheless, I don't believe that you can choose to believe in god without evidence. If I could change my beliefs by will alone, believing in fairies would be as simple as chanting "I do believe in fairies."

From Willing Belief and the Norm of Truth
I would further suggest that believing is simply regarding as true, regardless of whether the believer is motivated to get the truthvalue right. Of course, as a matter of fact, human believers are very much concerned with possessing truth-conducive reasons and this might partially explain our (contingent) inability to believe at will.

But that was covered in the first school.
Or at least, that was what I meant.
:confused: re-reads. kinda sound like a more peaceful and tolerable group then the fundies.

my mistake. :p

Remeber, even gravity is a theory :rolleyes:
Yeah, and remember how smart that pesky roadrunner and Bugs Bunny were back in the day!

*mutters something about wishing everyone was a smart as them Looney Tunes*

How are you guys debating this late at night??

Yeah, and remember how smart that pesky roadrunner and Bugs Bunny were back in the day!

*mutters something about wishing everyone was a smart as them Looney Tunes*
Maybe they had just taken the red pill?

My point was that choosing to not follow the Christian path could also be viewed as choosing to be rational. :) nice dig... *rubs bruised ribs* but I won't argue and assume you're useing levity to lighten the tone.

Nevertheless, I don't believe that you can choose to believe in god without evidence. If I could change my beliefs by will alone, believing in fairies would be as simple as chanting "I do believe in fairies."and the funny thing is what you require as evidence may not be what others require. if you read my post about God making his presence known to me big time. that is my evidence and it only pertains to me.

course there were other times that shown that an angel was watching out for me. but that will detract.

From Willing Belief and the Norm of Truth
I would further suggest that believing is simply regarding as true, regardless of whether the believer is motivated to get the truthvalue right. Of course, as a matter of fact, human believers are very much concerned with possessing truth-conducive reasons and this might partially explain our (contingent) inability to believe at will. I believe that everyone is honest. while I know that there are dishonest persons around, I believe that there are more honest people than dishonest ones.

and I haven't been proven wrong... yet.

I've been burned. but this belief was also strengthened more often then the times I was burned and this was a belief that I formuated without any consious need for evidence.

I can see your point. but also realize that God will provide the evidence. you just have to keep an open mind as well as an open heart.

How are you guys debating this late at night??
a cross of insomnia and having sand in my crotch from an evening at the beach.

How are you guys debating this late at night??
simple... with sagging eyes and tired fingers.

which makes for some interesting points. :D

What would a god be without a good ol' dick-waving? Its just a shame the Judeochristian God has never taken it as literally as the Greek and Roman gods. They were a horny bunch, they were.
Good point - perhaps that's the problem! The judeo-christian god probably DID TAKE IT FROM THE greek/roman gods on a regular basis! :eek:
That would explain that whole "jealous god" and "don't worship any others" mumbojumbo from the OT (that i provided earlier)!

Get 'em where it hurts the most - take away their audience! Then they'll have to get real jobs!
^
II
...and the moral of THAT particular story is...
...c'mon now, let's not see all the same hands...

How are you guys debating this late at night??
Don't make me smack you!













...of course, god helps those who help themselves...
those "themselves" being us, so it helps us by SUSPENDING TIME ZONE ISSUES

a cross of insomnia and having sand in my crotch from an evening at the beach.
Ah.. too..lazy..to..form..proper..sentence..or..check..spelling..

[/lazymode]

i wonder if brother has that sand problem.. silly lifeguards.

Good point - perhaps that's the problem! The judeo-christian god probably DID TAKE IT FROM THE greek/roman gods on a regular basis! :eek:
That would explain that whole "jealous god" and "don't worship any others" mumbojumbo from the OT (that i provided earlier)!Actually, I think that God is jealous because it wasn't Lord God who participated in the first story of creation, but was actually a plural form of the word "god"...or more accuratly and simply stated, the world was created by many gods.
Get 'em where it hurts the most - take away their audience! Then they'll have to get real jobs!
^
II
...and the moral of THAT particular story is...
...c'mon now, let's not see all the same hands...
:D

simple... with sagging eyes and tired fingers.

which makes for some interesting points. :D
ah, i see

Maybe they had just taken the red pill?
Well, i know that Bugs had an obviously questionable sexuality for that time period, but i can't say he was really all that keen on taking drugs. But i can't remember every episode ....
as for that bird? It was all hunger-illusion for that stupid coyote. Smart enough to order expensive toys, not smart enough to order chinese food. *shakes head*

Or, they both had taken the red pill. Damn, now i've gotta think back - maybe i'll rewatch some.

Don't make me smack you!

...of course, god helps those who help themselves...
those "themselves" being us, so it helps us by SUSPENDING TIME ZONE ISSUES
:p

Oh, and the casts thing is off.. but your medical thread.. make a new one :p

Don't make me smack you!
...of course, god helps those who help themselves...
those "themselves" being us, so it helps us by SUSPENDING TIME ZONE ISSUESthe fact that after catching up with this tread and only tackling points I felt were worthy to be tackled...

I looked up and notice it was 8:30 pm :eek:

6 hours passed!

Actually, I think that God is jealous because it wasn't Lord God who participated in the first story of creation, but was actually a plural form of the word "god"...or more accuratly and simply stated, the world was created by many gods.

So the judeo-christian god is a plagiarist AND a gang rape victim? :eek:
That explains A LOT.

Well, i know that Bugs had an obviously questionable sexuality for that time period, but i can't say he was really all that keen on taking drugs. But i can't remember every episode ....
as for that bird? It was all hunger-illusion for that stupid coyote. Smart enough to order expensive toys, not smart enough to order chinese food. *shakes head*

Or, they both had taken the red pill. Damn, now i've gotta think back - maybe i'll rewatch some.
all..looney..toons..must..die..

the fact that after catching up with this tread and only tackling points I felt were worthy to be tackled...

I looked up and notice it was 8:30 pm :eek:

6 hours passed!
That was Sunday night for me! :)

all..looney..toons..must..die..
You'd think deicide would have come up just a smidge earlier in this particular thread .... ;)

Ah.. too..lazy..to..form..proper..sentence..or..check..spelling..

[/lazymode]

i wonder if brother has that sand problem.. silly lifeguards.
wait...same brother who treats beer the same way?
if so, I too am a lifeguard.
If not...well, I'm still a lifeguard. It just isn't as amusing then.

wait...same brother who treats beer the same way?
if so, I too am a lifeguard.
If not...well, I'm still a lifeguard. It just isn't as amusing then.
same brother :D

unfortunatly, tho. What God want's can be interpreted in so many ways... :rolleyes:Boy HOWDY!

*nods solemnly*

You'd think deicide would have come up just a smidge earlier in this particular thread .... ;)
im trying to grasp the meaning..

i think i have found the meaning..

















how dare you.

Im not saying that there isn't a god, just how can we be so sure that the bible is fact, and not fiction?
Well, that's one of the most argumentative aspects attributed to faith. :(

im trying to grasp the meaning..

i think i have found the meaning..

















how dare you.What did you think i said? I'm talking about you killing whatever deity holds your particular fancy or focus. In this case, Bugs Bunny in drag ;)

Well, i know that Bugs had an obviously questionable sexuality for that time period, but i can't say he was really all that keen on taking drugs. But i can't remember every episode ....
as for that bird? It was all hunger-illusion for that stupid coyote. Smart enough to order expensive toys, not smart enough to order chinese food. *shakes head*

Or, they both had taken the red pill. Damn, now i've gotta think back - maybe i'll rewatch some.
wonder what the show would have been like had they taken the blue pill instead...certainly no walking on air...

Although, this matrix theory doesn't explain the multiple deaths...Except...Neo did have more than one death, technically. So does that mean Neo wasn't the first "One", but the coyote was? hmm...


as for multiple gods, the KJV has a very accurate translation here...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

same brother :D
hmm...maybe I have advanced MPD, and you're actually my little brother?

What did you think i said? I'm talking about you killing whatever deity holds your particular fancy or focus. In this case, Bugs Bunny in drag ;)
I give up on understanding you..

"The words of God falls to the ground like rain, and all our understanding of Him is therefore muddy."
Good quote. *bows*
I further augment (if you don't mind) an idea i take seriously:
The words of God falls to the ground AS rain, and all our understanding of IT/THEM is therefore muddy.

all..looney..toons..must..die..
tooo late...
They're here... :eek:
http://kidsturncentral3.com/graphics/loonaticsteam.gif
Loonatics (http://www.kidsturncentral.com/topics/tvmovies/loonatics.htm)

hmm...maybe I have advanced MPD, and you're actually my little brother?
in that case.. buy me beer

I give up on understanding you..
The beginning of wisdom. :p








Seriously though, sign up for Xislakilinia's newsletter. It might be on Assis's thread about whether or not i'm obsessed with god.

in that case.. buy me beer
only the cheap shit. And only with a minimum 10% tip.

tooo late...
They're here... :eek:
http://kidsturncentral3.com/graphics/loonaticsteam.gif
Loonatics (http://www.kidsturncentral.com/topics/tvmovies/loonatics.htm)
eep :eek:

and the funny thing is what you require as evidence may not be what others require. if you read my post about God making his presence known to me big time. that is my evidence and it only pertains to me.

We agree. :) The needed evidence will differ depending on the individual but I usually side with scientific and personal evidence. As I don't have that evidence, I don't believe.

I believe that everyone is honest. while I know that there are dishonest persons around, I believe that there are more honest people than dishonest ones.

I've been burned. but this belief was also strengthened more often then the times I was burned and this was a belief that I formuated without any consious need for evidence.

Your belief, that everyone is honest, developed without a conscious decision like most beliefs. That's why I can't accept that believing in a god is a choice.

I can see your point. but also realize that God will provide the evidence. you just have to keep an open mind as well as an open heart.If a god gives evidence of their existence, I believe many agnostics/atheists will change their views. Until that day, they will continue to question.

read the thread you intend on posting on? That's crazy-talk my friend!

*Ignores the fact that I, too, didn't bother to read most of the thread*
Hahahaha!
;)

The beginning of wisdom. :p








Seriously though, sign up for Xislakilinia's newsletter. It might be on Assis's thread about whether or not i'm obsessed with god.
gimme a linky :(

only the cheap shit. And only with a minimum 10% tip.
im a rich boy, buy me a keg!

and 10%? ugh.. i will agree to this, only if you do the math for me.

im a rich boy, buy me a keg!

and 10%? ugh.. i will agree to this, only if you do the math for me.
fine. a keg of PBR.

and do you really want to ask an English major to do math for you? I'm the one who would rather disect the bible on a literary level (such as the multiple gods thing) and has read 5 different English translations of said book just so I don't have to do math...

If a god gives evidence of their existence, I believe many agnostics/atheists will change their views. Until that day, they will continue to question.the problem is, tho. the evidence is a personal one and thus cannot be tested in the way most atheist will agree to.

to me, Faith is dependent on the Heart. Science, the mind. the two are not mutually exsclusive and like parallell lines, never meet nor do they cross.

simple... with sagging eyes and tired fingers.

which makes for some interesting points. :D
You are *SO* right! :D

gimme a linky :(
What?
It's the one where YOU said i was God!!!
:confused:

the problem is, tho. the evidence is a personal one and thus cannot be tested in the way most atheist will agree to.

to me, Faith is dependent on the Heart. Science, the mind. the two are not mutually exsclusive and like parallell lines, never meet nor do they cross.
could you convince everyone of this? And I mean both of those points...

as an atheist, I do believe what I can prove empirically. there will never be empirical evidence for or against a god, so, as I have said before, it is a moot argument.

I also really wish people would accept that the belief in God doesn't exclude science, nor does science exclude God

:p

Oh, and the casts thing is off.. but your medical thread.. make a new one :p
I'll do that next week (provided JuNii and yourself and a few other awesome posters and likely some spammers are still interested) since i won't have much time to attend it this week (leaving Fri night for weekend).
:)

fine. a keg of PBR.

and do you really want to ask an English major to do math for you? I'm the one who would rather disect the bible on a literary level (such as the multiple gods thing) and has read 5 different English translations of said book just so I don't have to do math...
Yuengling is cheap. You buy me Yuengling lager.


eeehhh.. i presses shift :(

meh.. how bout.. because i never only just drink 6 beers.. $5 per.. whatever..

I'll do that next week (provided JuNii and yourself and a few other awesome posters and likely some spammers are still interested) since i won't have much time to attend it this week (leaving Fri night for weekend).
:)
haha...I'll attempt to actually post this time:(

Good quote. *bows*
I further augment (if you don't mind) an idea i take seriously:
I don't mind at all. Feel free. :)

wonder what the show would have been like had they taken the blue pill instead...certainly no walking on air...

Although, this matrix theory doesn't explain the multiple deaths...Except...Neo did have more than one death, technically. So does that mean Neo wasn't the first "One", but the coyote was? hmm...

This merits some Ill Rufferto research. *nods emphatically*
*gestures towards the amanita muscaria*


as for multiple gods, the KJV has a very accurate translation here...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...
Hey, good point. *bows*

hmm...maybe I have advanced MPD, and you're actually my little brother?
Perhaps someone tipped the bucket a little too soon?
j/k

What?
It's the one where YOU said i was God!!!
:confused:
Was I high?





:p

i meant the.. letter news.. thing
I'll do that next week (provided JuNii and yourself and a few other awesome posters and likely some spammers are still interested) since i won't have much time to attend it this week (leaving Fri night for weekend). :)
mmk, where ya going?

If a god gives evidence of their existence, I believe many agnostics/atheists will change their views. Until that day, they will continue to question.
Ah but you're missing the point.
As the concept of God is portrayed in most religions, God is ineffable and cannot be understood by the human mind.
That is why you need faith.

If God gave evidence of His existence, there would be no need for faith.
Seeing is not believing.
Ergo, it you had proof of God's existence it wouldn't be God. ;)

This merits some Ill Rufferto research. *nods emphatically*
*gestures towards the amanita muscaria*
I knew it was the matrix! HAH! [/self proudness]

Sure.. gimme the pill.

haha...I'll attempt to actually post this time:(
Well, IRL issues are what're keeping me from it at the moment (he types as he finally finishes *most* of ONE thread) - but you did FINE on the last one. TG me if ya can about the sequel - they deleted most of my TG's and i can't seem to make it work lately
I missed a few dozen a LONG FRIGGIN' time ago. :(
*compulsive*

This merits some Ill Rufferto research. *nods emphatically*
*gestures towards the amanita muscaria*
Did I tell you that didn't end up happening? I'm still angry. Now I have to wait till I'm back in Boston. *le sigh*


Hey, good point. *bows*
thats what you get for having to study it so damn much. It is actually funny how different translations and printings handle it. This King James just has the direct translation. Other versions have the same words, but footnote it as a heavenly court...so kinda seraphim. Others just change it to be a singular god.

the problem is, tho. the evidence is a personal one and thus cannot be tested in the way most atheist will agree to.

All the gods need to do is give every doubter a personal experience that demonstrates their existences. That would sway a lot of people with no hard evidence needed. After all, people would rather believe in the supernatural than believe that they are delusional.

could you convince everyone of this? And I mean both of those points...

as an atheist, I do believe what I can prove empirically. there will never be empirical evidence for or against a god, so, as I have said before, it is a moot argument.

I also really wish people would accept that the belief in God doesn't exclude science, nor does science exclude God
here... dunno. not ready to try tho.

oh and belief and Faith are two different things. they are similar in some points but faith is belief without empirical proof. yes, a moot argument. and not one I'm starting. :p

and your third sentence is something I agree with, thus my sleep foggy analogy about parallell lines. they don't meet and they don't cross. but they can run side by side.

Regarding what JuNii said, the experiental argument is only relevent to those who have religious experience/religious delusion/(insert other term for the same thing here). It cannot be proven, although admittedly there are the four aspects common to each; transcience, ineffability, noetic, and the other one which I have forgotten. Still, I believe a rational explanation exists for every experience/delusion. For example, whilie most chuches are just places of worship, one in america (forgotten where) had an enormous group religious experience/delusion. After that, people flocked for miles and still do looking for religious experience and many find it. I find it odd that at other sites which are also supposedly 'houses of God' that people do not have these religious experiences/delusions. The likeliest explanation is that there was a pocket of natural gas beneath the site and it is seeping up, causing hallucination or intoxication. Of course, this is not something I can guarantee, so I keep an open mind while still assuming this for the time being. Furthermore, many people were looking for this experience, so faking or deluding themself is a strong possibility in the given circumstances.

Following are two quotes from David Hume regarding miracles (essentially a form of religious experience/delusion). I was only looking for the latter quote, but the former I found to be quite interesting.


“The many instances of forged miracles, and prophecies, and supernatural events, which, in all ages, have either been detected by contrary evidence, or which detect themselves by their absurdity, prove sufficiently the strong propensity of mankind to”

" No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavors to establish."

Was I high?

How IN THE LIVING F*CK am I supposed to know when you're NOT stoned? :p


i meant the.. letter news.. thingSigcheck. :)

mmk, where ya going?Up to Denali w/my wife for the weekend. Dodging bears, skeeters, people, and perhaps even comfort for trade of a "character-building" anecdote :p
Not much wireless reception up there, i'm afraid ...

Well, IRL issues are what're keeping me from it at the moment (he types as he finally finishes *most* of ONE thread) - but you did FINE on the last one. TG me if ya can about the sequel - they deleted most of my TG's and i can't seem to make it work lately
I missed a few dozen a LONG FRIGGIN' time ago. :(
*compulsive*
I hear ya on real life issues...damn elusive jobs...
I'll TG you about it tomorrow. I thought of a good thread idea...now I just need to remember it....

All the gods need to do is give every doubter a personal experience that demonstrates their existences. That would sway a lot of people with no hard evidence needed. After all, people would rather believe in the supernatural than believe that they are delusional.they will tend to first believe that they Imagined it, then they will explain it away using various different methods.

If God were to peek though the clouds and holler "Here I Am!" you'll have people saying it was mass hypnosis, or a hallusingen (sp) or even a freak occurance of nature. Most still won't believe.

I knew it was the matrix! HAH! [/self proudness]
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1074.gif

[quote=Ill Rufferto]Sure.. gimme the pill.
It's a tea you put in a turkey-baster with a special kind of balm applied to it. *shifts weight*

How IN THE LIVING F*CK am I supposed to know when you're NOT stoned? :p
when other people are NOT throwing F*CKing STONES at you would be a good sign. :D

Ah but you're missing the point.
As the concept of God is portrayed in most religions, God is ineffable and cannot be understood by the human mind.
That is why you need faith.

Obviously, I'm assuming an effable god (e.g., an extraterrestrial). :)

If God gave evidence of His existence, there would be no need for faith.
Seeing is not believing.
Ergo, it you had proof of God's existence it wouldn't be God.

A Babel fish argument against god? :)

How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.

here... dunno. not ready to try tho.

oh and belief and Faith are two different things. they are similar in some points but faith is belief without empirical proof. yes, a moot argument. and not one I'm starting. :p You're right about belief and faith being different. And I hear ya on not starting the moot argument...despite that being this threads inevitable conclusion;)

and your third sentence is something I agree with, thus my sleep foggy analogy about parallell lines. they don't meet and they don't cross. but they can run side by side.
I liked that analogy. I only wish people would finally realize that. And this is coming from an atheist who tends to detest organized religion with a firey passion.

[QUOTE=IL Ruffino]
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1074.gif
It's a tea you put in a turkey-baster with a special kind of balm applied to it. *shifts weight*you know... something's bothering me about my dosage... I could swear I remember you haveing both hands on my shoulder...

How IN THE LIVING F*CK am I supposed to know when you're NOT stoned? :p


Sigcheck. :)

Up to Denali w/my wife for the weekend. Dodging bears, skeeters, people, and perhaps even comfort for trade of a "character-building" anecdote :p
Not much wireless reception up there, i'm afraid ...
:p

Sigcheck?


*gasp*

I thoght you were east coast!

well.. yeah.. dont burn the woods down. oh and make anti oil protest signs and walk around just for the hell of it..

Did I tell you that didn't end up happening? I'm still angry. Now I have to wait till I'm back in Boston. *le sigh*No. Does it make a good (although self-incriminatory) anecdote? ;)
Well, the first was great, but the next two were utterly pointless. :(



thats what you get for having to study it so damn much. It is actually funny how different translations and printings handle it. This King James just has the direct translation. Other versions have the same words, but footnote it as a heavenly court...so kinda seraphim. Others just change it to be a singular god.
But, of course, they're ALL inerrant, EVERY SINGLE ONE ... :p

How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.
*hands target to Maypole*
you also might want to put on some fire-proof material... things are about to get hot when they read your posts.

oh, and welcome to NS Forums... hope you survive the experience.:D

[QUOTE=IL Ruffino]I knew it was the matrix! HAH! [/self proudness]
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1074.gif


It's a tea you put in a turkey-baster with a special kind of balm applied to it. *shifts weight*
*watches kill bill*


... [/random]

I hear ya on real life issues...damn elusive jobs...
I'll TG you about it tomorrow. I thought of a good thread idea...now I just need to remember it....
Done deal.
I already have a few ideas, i just hope i don't get chided if i didn't notice anyone else's threads from aeons passed that cover similar territory :(
Good luck on the jobs thing though - i can definitely relate.

Obviously, I'm assuming an effable god (e.g., an extraterrestrial). :)



A Babel fish argument against god? :)
Well, ok. I'll listen to prayers every weekday between 10 and 17. Evening by appointment. :p


Actually it's a Discworld argument, but the Lifter's argument is very close to it.

How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.
I find it very amusing that a so, ah, devout Christian as yourself would choose to name your nation after a pagan fertility symbol. ;)

when other people are NOT throwing F*CKing STONES at you would be a good sign. :D
Ah ... all the women in my neighborhood wear beards. :p

All right, no one is to stone ANYONE until I blow this whistle! Even... and let me make this absolutely clear... even if they do say "Jehovah"!
*stones ensue*

How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.
okay...we'll start with the last sentence first. What you say is not "true", it is opinion. The two aren't even close to the same thing.
I am an atheist. I am a good person. I learned that lying, cheating, stealing, all of that...is wrong. Not because a booming voice in the sky or some guy in Italy said it is. Not because a guy in the Middle East said it was bad 2000 years ago. I learned it is wrong because it hurts others. I learned to take some responsibility for my own actions and choices, to gain my morals from life experience, and worry about being a good person today, not to get a better life after I die, but to have a good life TODAY.
People have been claiming the downfall of civilization since civilization started. They cried it when Judaism started, Christianity started, the waltz was invented, Baroque became classical. You name it. It has yet to happen. Change isn't bad, and what you consider "good" and "traditional" today was, in fact, at one point, radical, liberal, and seen as "evil". Yes, even clothing, at one point, was a radically new idea.
You argue against yourself. You say you are arguing from a social stance, then use the example of capitalism, an economic structure.
I, similar to Ruffy, have lost several friends in a short period of time. I am different, however, in that I didn't believe in God even before they died. I stood by that belief. Does that mean that I'm a strong person? In the last year, I have lost 6 people of varying closeness, from a good friend, to someone on this forum, to friends parents. Not a single one made me waver in my lack of belief in a God.
Natural disasters have occured since the planet began. Without them, the world would be quite a different place. They are hardly a sign of the dreaded end times.

you know... something's bothering me about my dosage... I could swear I remember you haveing both hands on my shoulder...
:D
It might appear that the MEDICAL ANECDOTE thread ended JUST A LITTLE BIT too early!!!

*hands target to Maypole*
you also might want to put on some fire-proof material... things are about to get hot when they read your posts.

oh, and welcome to NS Forums... hope you survive the experience.:D

I will give you some simple proof:
(1.)The fact that by chance that a world like ours existed with the perfect condition meaning, gravity, coorect tempreature for life, distance from the sun, water, air is nearly impossible.
(2.) The fact that by chance humans evolved the way they did, with their amazing bodies and brains is nearly impossible.
(3.) The fact that by chance evolution how it did exisitsted and still exists in the way it did is nerly impossible.
The chances that these are thrue are the same as the chance that a computer with no instructions and no programming, would write the best composition for an opera/orchestra and longest one in the world.

NB: Also there are supernatural phenomnons like NDE'S ( near death experience - www.near-death.com agoo site).
Unexplainable miracles when there are prayers for them, immediate change of lifestyle I know one example when one really bad bad mafioso and atheist who did the worst things imaginable went to a prayer meeting with his wife to mock the priest who did it and when he went he felt enormous pressure on his head in a sudden and converted afterwards. There are much more but I can' t name them all.

How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.


Very little you say is true. You cannot state any of that as fact, since morality is completely subjective. While I personally share the belief about crumbling morality in society, and even attribute this to the demise of religion, I am extremely angry at your condemnation of abortion (which is at a stage where the foetuses are incapable of either feeling or conscious thought), homosexual marriage (like any true redneck Christian would condemn, before going off to watch lesbian porn), euthanasia (I mean, it's not like suffering without need is bad, right?) and legalised drugs (more regulation means safer, less addictive drugs, taxation, reduced stigma on seeking help and such like). Besides, alcohol is a DRUG, so when you drink wine/the blood of jesus or whatever you want to call it, you are taking DRUGS. Get over it.

Also, the judgement day will not come, and the only judging here is of the initial poster by you. Tell me, if God is the perfect, omnipotent and all-loving God that Christians claim him to be, why does suffering exist? Please state the free will defence just so I can have the pleasure of ripping it apart and debunking omniscience and omnipotence as a consequence if you insist upon free will's truth. You accuse the original poster of having a weak character, but I don't see that person using an imaginary figure as a crutch in life. If anybody here is pathetic, in both the old and modern meanings, it is you.

Also, three to five peopleclaimed the Virgin Mary appeared before them. Do they know what she looks and sound like? Thought not, so anything that appeared to them is likely to be deceptive in nature if, of course, the whole thing wasn't fabricated.

So, uh, yeah, seee you at the judgement day or whatever you said. Until then, there's always institutionalisation, buddy.

I will give you some simple proof:
(1.)The fact that by chance that a world like ours existed with the perfect condition meaning, gravity, coorect tempreature for life, distance from the sun, water, air is nearly impossible.Wrong. Provide your source of statistics, or drop it. I suspect you don't know that.

(2.) The fact that by chance humans evolved the way they did, with their amazing bodies and brains is nearly impossible.Same problem as above - you substitute "fact" for "self-appeasing assumption*
(3.) The fact that by chance evolution how it did exisitsted and still exists in the way it did is nerly impossible.Ditto :rolleyes:
The chances that these are thrue are the same as the chance that a computer with no instructions and no programming, would write the best composition for an opera/orchestra and longest one in the world."Thrue"?
Seems like a swipe at the infinite probability machine ... good of you to invoke simian principle! ;)
Again, prove it. Again, i bet you can't. Show links.

NB: Also there are supernatural phenomnons like NDE'S ( near death experience - www.near-death.com agoo site).
Unexplainable miracles when there are prayers for them, immediate change of lifestyle I know one example when one really bad bad mafioso and atheist who did the worst things imaginable went to a prayer meeting with his wife to mock the priest who did it and when he went he felt enormous pressure on his head in a sudden and converted afterwards. There are much more but I can' t name them all.Of course you can't name them all, unless you're given enough time to make some more up. Thanks for sharing an anecdote which may or may not have actually occurred to substantiate your post.