NationStates Jolt Archive

I agree with Ashmoria.
I do believe that believing in God is all based on personal beliefs. If you believe in God, he says thathe gave us all free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in him or not.
And I understand the whole topic of death and how can a loving God allow it, but it's on his time, not ours. I've had issues with that myself. But without suffering there would be no compassion.
I would rather believe in God and be wrong and end up being dirt than not believe in God andbe wrong and end up somewhere I don't want to be...

But then you are no longer distinguishing between "think it might be" and "believe".

Observation of behaviour in others is empirical evidence. It can be objectively measured, such as repetition of events.

And yes, personal experience is empirical (by definition). It is not necessarily objective.

I am, allow me to clarify.

There are two forms of personal experience, one which is subject to our moral/cultural/inertial biases and another through which we may know things certainly about the exterior world through the application of logic. Both are personal experiences, but one system eliminates bias.

If you can't prove something absolutely, then you either "think it might be" (as in the case where you refuse to make a conclusion) or your "believe it is so", in defiance of the evidence (or lack thereof).

Thank you for correcting my inefficient use of the english language, although I'm not certain that objective is a very good descriptor, either. The idea is that although subjective experience can be used to draw a conclusion, unless either logic or the scientific method is used to eliminate the intrinsic human tendency to interpret data in a manner that has personal importance, we cannot be relatively certain of its accuracy.

Your grandfathers name wasn't Thor by any chance, was it?

also, remind me to never get you mad...or, if I do, give me a head start.

I don't get mad anymore. Not like that. I was little (small, not young. Keep in mind that I graduated high school at 145 lbs. and knocked out a 200-pound classmate who came at me when I was still well under five feet and 95 pounds). And I was scared of people hurting me back then. I viewed every onslaught like my life depended on it and in some cases it did. My fear drove me to be a person I hope I never ever become again.

I'm not afraid anymore. I'm confident in my ability to defend myself and those I love without injuring others. I actually did hurt someone a couple of years ago (got arrested for it too, honestly) because they wouldn't back off and I was too stupid to recognize I was in trouble. I keep shooing the guy away like he was just annoying instead of dangerous and he caught me once and caused to fall and get a concussion. When I forgot where I was and who he was, I got scared and actually hit him. Let me tell you, it was not a pleasant evening for me. Nothing like sleeping on a stone bench because you can't remember your phone number to keep your eye on the prize.

Today, I take every physical threat seriously, immediately. Leave if at all possible and if not prepare to incapacitate without injury. I don't slough off threats, but I also don't fear them. It took a lot of pain and problems to reach that balance, however.

And, trust me, I'm not bragging. I had a boss who told me he'd never punched anyone or been punched by anyone in his whole life. You can't imagine how much I envy such a thing. Violence is a dark thing that should ALWAYS be a last resort.

And you shouldn't be talked to like an adult? You want us to talk to you like a child?

No, but you can't expect me to know so many things, so many quatotaions from the Bible, besides most people of my age woudn't be interested in these stuff today.

And, yes, I'm a full-out viking. Blond hair. Blue eyes. Tall. Broad shoulders. When I fight I go into a full beserker rage. I've been hit with bats, pipes and bottles without the slightest wane in my aggression (I used to be very aggressive. I'm MUCH better now *tribute to John Astin on Night Court*). Now, some of those resulted in a trip to the hospital, but until I'd calmed down from a rage I was virtually invulnerable. To my credit, people who didn't know me then, find this all very hard to believe. I am thankful for that.


Except that my blond hair is now a reddish dirty-blond, this could be me.

Puppet.


And I fell out of a five-ton truck onto my head and broke my neck and jumped up laughing. I wasn't even sure I'd broken for quite a while afterwards.


This one was not me. It was my brother... car crash in Germany while in the Army. He walked 5 miles to the nearest house to call the ambulance.

I agree with Ashmoria.
I do believe that believing in God is all based on personal beliefs. If you believe in God, he says thathe gave us all free will. We can choose whether or not to believe in him or not.
free will is not all facets of existance. We don't choose, as me and GnI have stated, not to believe. it just happens. Most people don't choose to believe in God, they just do.
And I understand the whole topic of death and how can a loving God allow it, but it's on his time, not ours. I've had issues with that myself. But without suffering there would be no compassion. fell, from a purely biblical pov, its because Eve and Adam ate the fruit of the tree that we die. Interesting that a benevolent god would punish so many generations for the choice of two people.

I would rather believe in God and be wrong and end up being dirt than not believe in God andbe wrong and end up somewhere I don't want to be...I'd rather not lie to myself and pretend to believe something I don't. Wherever that gets me after this life, so be it. The way I see it, I'll be in a hole somewhere either way.

Ya know, you do bring up a very valid point here. In some ways, I agree with you in regards to the New testiment but there is also nothing in there about not having an organized religion so we can go back and forth on that but I can agree with you about a personal relationship, with both God and Jesus.

I see nothing wrong with 'fellowship', but the point at which gatherings of Chritians become FORMAL, seems like the point at which they start to tend away from the message of the New Testament... for me, at least.

All that stuff about praying in closets, and not being seen giving, and loving your god... etc - I just don't see it lending itself easily, to the 'official' church.

1) We have no way of knowing HOW old any poster is, unless they specifically say. And, even then... they might not be...

2) I address everyone as being a poster, not a representative of an 'age'.

3) I don't know how many of the posters online right now remember "Suicidal Librarians", but she was an excellent poster, with some very valuable insights, a good reasoning mind, and a clear way of communicating it. I later found out, she was 13. Age just isn't always a factor.

So you think that nothing of what I write is reasonable, huh?

Now, I wasn't here for the first, oh, 400 pages of this discussion, so feel free to ignore everything I say.

The way it appears to me, God exists. Whether that God is a Judaeo-Christian, Muslim, or Hindu god is not material to what I'm saying. That's not what the poster originally asked.

David Hum argued that we can never be sure if God exists because we can never be sure of anything external to ourselves- contrary to what Descartes argued. First, let's consider the universe, or existence.
There are a two possibilities for existence: God made it, or God didn't make it. Everything else falls under these two categories. Now, if God didn't make it, the mathematical implications of everything simply happening is staggering- the number of coincidences and random happenings boggles the mind. Science also teaches that for every reaction, there must be an action. Following this logic, something must be responsible for the creation of existence. Logically, and scientifically speaking, existence couldn't just happen on it's own- something (Maybe God, maybe not) had to give it that little push for those two amino acids to say "Hey! Let's make monkeys!" (

(Please note, I'm simplifying.)

Now, God. Setting religious differences aside, let's consider God in the broadest terms possible: Some higher being/entity/spirit/space cat/whatever that is generally incomprehensible and seemingly all-powerful. No gender (in fact, why would a higher being even need a gender?), no age, no nothing like that. This god is responsible for all things, making life flow in an out (in the terms of Democritus ((I think)) "Everlasting fire going in and out in measures.")

For me, God boils down to energy. The basic energy that is neither created nor destroye,d but only changes for. Sort of a Tao-type thing, or Akasha, or Brahmin, or Holy Spirit, or whatever. God exists, for me.

Talking about Christianity, I don't believe in Hell. The New Testament presents a view of God as forgiving, yet being merciful and just. No merciful god would punish his own creations for all eternity because they didn't listen to him. I believe that after death there are only two place: Purgatory, and Heaven. You work off your sin/disobedience/ etc and get to the good place, because that's where god wants you to be.

It's like the hymn, "Like a shepherd he leads his flock, and carries the lambs in his arms." God as shepherd goes seeking for the lost lambs and brings them back to the flock. No shepherd wants to slaughter a lamb, because that's wool you've lost. (disturbing analogies about people and wool aside, plus the "But what about mutton? question)

I know I've given a sort of conflicting testimony here, but the Catholic Church isn't good at ensuring uniformity of thought. You have a Christian perspecitve and a sort of quasi-new-age-weirdo view. Oh well.

from the Gospel of Thomas
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.


I believe Matthew describes a similar sentiment:

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

No, but you can't expect me to know so many things, so many quatotaions from the Bible, besides most people of my age woudn't be interested in these stuff today.
ah, but you appearently are. And you are in a debate forum, in a thread dedicated to God and his existance. And rest assured, I will use the resources at my disposal to help my case, as will most people on this forum.

Also, interestingly, most people on here aren't much older than you. I'm 20 myself, not that it really has mattered. No one will talk down to you because of age....that is both a burden and blessing.

Now, I wasn't here for the first, oh, 400 pages of this discussion, so feel free to ignore everything I say.

The way it appears to me, God exists. Whether that God is a Judaeo-Christian, Muslim, or Hindu god is not material to what I'm saying. That's not what the poster originally asked.

David Hum argued that we can never be sure if God exists because we can never be sure of anything external to ourselves- contrary to what Descartes argued. First, let's consider the universe, or existence.
There are a two possibilities for existence: God made it, or God didn't make it. Everything else falls under these two categories. Now, if God didn't make it, the mathematical implications of everything simply happening is staggering- the number of coincidences and random happenings boggles the mind. Science also teaches that for every reaction, there must be an action. Following this logic, something must be responsible for the creation of existence. Logically, and scientifically speaking, existence couldn't just happen on it's own- something (Maybe God, maybe not) had to give it that little push for those two amino acids to say "Hey! Let's make monkeys!" (

(Please note, I'm simplifying.)

Now, God. Setting religious differences aside, let's consider God in the broadest terms possible: Some higher being/entity/spirit/space cat/whatever that is generally incomprehensible and seemingly all-powerful. No gender (in fact, why would a higher being even need a gender?), no age, no nothing like that. This god is responsible for all things, making life flow in an out (in the terms of Democritus ((I think)) "Everlasting fire going in and out in measures.")

For me, God boils down to energy. The basic energy that is neither created nor destroye,d but only changes for. Sort of a Tao-type thing, or Akasha, or Brahmin, or Holy Spirit, or whatever. God exists, for me.

Talking about Christianity, I don't believe in Hell. The New Testament presents a view of God as forgiving, yet being merciful and just. No merciful god would punish his own creations for all eternity because they didn't listen to him. I believe that after death there are only two place: Purgatory, and Heaven. You work off your sin/disobedience/ etc and get to the good place, because that's where god wants you to be.

It's like the hymn, "Like a shepherd he leads his flock, and carries the lambs in his arms." God as shepherd goes seeking for the lost lambs and brings them back to the flock. No shepherd wants to slaughter a lamb, because that's wool you've lost. (disturbing analogies about people and wool aside, plus the "But what about mutton? question)

I know I've given a sort of conflicting testimony here, but the Catholic Church isn't good at ensuring uniformity of thought. You have a Christian perspecitve and a sort of quasi-new-age-weirdo view. Oh well.

Well, at least you beleive in God, because half the people here don't think he exists.

Yeah, I'm sorry, too... it had gold-edged pages, and everything...

;)

My big problem with any church, is that it is formalisation of something that I don't think NEEDS formalising. To me - religion should be about a personal relationship between man believer and 'god'... and, I think that is the core message of the New Testament as well.

Of course - on the other hand, I can't condemn it TOO much, because we wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame Cathedral, etc... without 'organised' religions...
THANK YOU! I don't get how they can create an institution that looks and acts just like the behavior of the Pharisees Jesus was speaking out against.

Matthew 23: 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

...

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

He cries out for them to find humility and a personal relationship with God rather than becoming or following blind guides. What could be clearer?

Let's see what else. The Catholic Church is one of the richest entities in the known world and amasses treasures to ensure that it lives on while the Bible states that believers need do no such thing. What kind of example is that?

Need I go on?

So you think that nothing of what I write is reasonable, huh?

Did I say that?

THANK YOU! I don't get how they can create an institution that looks and acts just like the behavior of the Pharisees Jesus was speaking out against.

Matthew 23: 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

...

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

He cries out for them to find humility and a personal relationship with God rather than becoming or following blind guides. What could be clearer?

Let's see what else. The Catholic Church is one of the richest entities in the known world and amasses treasures to ensure that it lives on while the Bible states that believers need do no such thing. What kind of example is that?

Need I go on?

No arguments from this corner. :)

Except that my blond hair is now a reddish dirty-blond, this could be me.

Puppet.



This one was not me. It was my brother... car crash in Germany while in the Army. He walked 5 miles to the nearest house to call the ambulance.

It's actually a bit odd how much we have in common. I say bring back the goatee and let's really freak people out. We'll visit churches. I bet we can get burned at the stake within a year. ;)

ah, but you appearently are. And you are in a debate forum, in a thread dedicated to God and his existance. And rest assured, I will use the resources at my disposal to help my case, as will most people on this forum.

Also, interestingly, most people on here aren't much older than you. I'm 20 myself, not that it really has mattered. No one will talk down to you because of age....that is both a burden and blessing.

Sorry, but altough there are only 5 years between us there is a huge difference, I still have much to develop and you have most probably developed or at the end, and I still like any other person of my age am Interested in most things my age would be interested. If for example I asked any person in my class out of the 29, only some 2 would be interested if any in this kind of discussion, besides that the age factor is important since you don't have views for exampl from aged people only but a mixture, because for example there is a bigger chance that someon 70 years old believes in God than someone age 15 years old,That is my point.

Did I say that?

Thats how sounded, but can you please tell me the things in which you agree with me, because it doesn't seem that there are many.

So you think that nothing of what I write is reasonable, huh?

He didn't say that, but I'll say it. I think you are not a reasonable poster. This may be age. This may be passion. This may be being new to the forums. Who knows? But your posts are rushed and clearly not thought out. They are hard to read and harder to find the point in. They are ripe with misspellings and other grammar mistakes. If you're here to preach then you came to the wrong place and your methods are not very effective. If you came to discuss then you need to put a little more effort into your posts. All that we see now is loads of passion and loads of desperation from a poster that wants more effort from the people he talks to than he's willing to give.

Thats how sounded, but can you please tell me the things in which you agree with me, because it doesn't seem that there are many.

I agree with you on several points. You have much to develop. I agree with you that many people your age do not have the interests you do. Many people my age (early 30's) do not have the interests you do.

Here's where we vary. Your age is no excuse. If you need to develop, get on it. Right now, you aren't putting the effort necessary to make that happen. You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders and lots to say. Slow down, put more effort in your posts, so the rest of us can hear it.

Now, I wasn't here for the first, oh, 400 pages of this discussion, so feel free to ignore everything I say.

The way it appears to me, God exists. Whether that God is a Judaeo-Christian, Muslim, or Hindu god is not material to what I'm saying. That's not what the poster originally asked.

David Hum argued that we can never be sure if God exists because we can never be sure of anything external to ourselves- contrary to what Descartes argued. First, let's consider the universe, or existence.
There are a two possibilities for existence: God made it, or God didn't make it. Everything else falls under these two categories. Now, if God didn't make it, the mathematical implications of everything simply happening is staggering- the number of coincidences and random happenings boggles the mind. Science also teaches that for every reaction, there must be an action. Following this logic, something must be responsible for the creation of existence. Logically, and scientifically speaking, existence couldn't just happen on it's own- something (Maybe God, maybe not) had to give it that little push for those two amino acids to say "Hey! Let's make monkeys!" (

(Please note, I'm simplifying.)
I'm just gonna take on the mathmatical probability. Once again, I will use my dice roll example.

Lets say I have a 6 sided die. I roll that die 200 times, and write down the number that I roll each time.

Mathematically, the chances of any specific set of results in a specific order are tiny. The probability, however, doesn't matter. What actually happened is the only thing that matters. Yes, the odds of that result were 1 in somebignumberi'mtoolazytocalculate. That no longer matters. Probability is theoretical. Results are actual.

Is Corny still avoiding my questions? I guess in a discussion, only one side has to actually read and reply to the other side, huh?

Corny, if you want to engage in a discussion stop talking past people and reply to our questions. I've seen you drop several, and they weren't just mine. Dropped arguments leads to a poor debate.

I'm just gonna take on the mathmatical probability. Once again, I will use my dice roll example.

Lets say I have a 6 sided die. I roll that die 200 times, and write down the number that I roll each time.

Mathematically, the chances of any specific set of results in a specific order are tiny. The probability, however, doesn't matter. What actually happened is the only thing that matters. Yes, the odds of that result were 1 in somebignumberi'mtoolazytocalculate. That no longer matters. Probability is theoretical. Results are actual.

6^200 = 4.26825 x 10^155

He didn't say that, but I'll say it. I think you are not a reasonable poster. This may be age. This may be passion. This may be being new to the forums. Who knows? But your posts are rushed and clearly not thought out. They are hard to read and harder to find the point in. They are ripe with misspellings and other grammar mistakes. If you're here to preach then you came to the wrong place and your methods are not very effective. If you came to discuss then you need to put a little more effort into your posts. All that we see now is loads of passion and loads of desperation from a poster that wants more effort from the people he talks to than he's willing to give.

Sorry, but if you have read more previous pages, I am not English, American, I am Maltese, we speak A language derived from Arabic, so you can imagine how difficult it is for me to communicate, and its even harder for me to write it, so please on that point, I think I have an excuse. So, what's wrong If I speak with passion, didn't Christ speak with passion, didn't many other great people speak with passion and told extremley valid things. On the rushed factor, I have a strict timetable, I have loads of work, fortunatley yesterday was my free day so I could have some more time to post, so please I have also an excuse on this. Yes, maybe in some posts I wrote some unreasonable stuff, but when I wrote reasonable stuff, people ate me alive, and you begin to react. For example, personally My first post made me feel proud, as I expressed my feelings perfectly on religious matters on the net. You can find on pg333. Tell me if it is valid or not, if not I dont know, than I am truly stupid.

6^200 = 4.26825 x 10^155
Thank you muchly:)

I never liked stats, and its been far too long since I've taken them

I am, allow me to clarify.

There are two forms of personal experience, one which is subject to our moral/cultural/inertial biases and another through which we may know things certainly about the exterior world through the application of logic. Both are personal experiences, but one system eliminates bias.
It sounds like you are talking about subjective and objective.

If you can't prove something absolutely, then you either "think it might be" (as in the case where you refuse to make a conclusion) or your "believe it is so", in defiance of the evidence (or lack thereof).
I am still confused, then, about the difference between "think it might be" and "believe," as your definitions seem to rely on unrelated things (one a conclusion, the other evidence). From what we've said so far between us, one can either "think it is so" or "believe", either with evidence or without, while coming to no concrete conclusion.

I think they are basically the same thing, too.

Thank you for correcting my inefficient use of the english language, although I'm not certain that objective is a very good descriptor, either. The idea is that although subjective experience can be used to draw a conclusion, unless either logic or the scientific method is used to eliminate the intrinsic human tendency to interpret data in a manner that has personal importance, we cannot be relatively certain of its accuracy.
No arguement, there.

Sorry, but if you have read more previous pages, I am not English, American, I am Maltese, we speak A language derived from Arabic, so you can imagine how difficult it is for me to communicate, and its even harder for me to write it, so please on that point, I think I have an excuse. So, what's wrong If I speak with passion, didn't Christ speak with passion, didn't many other great people speak with passion and told extremley valid things. On the rushed factor, I have a strict timetable, I have loads of work, fortunatley yesterday was my free day so I could have some more time to post, so please I have also an excuse on this. Yes, maybe in some posts I wrote some unreasonable stuff, but when I wrote reasonable stuff, people ate me alive, and you begin to react. For example, personally My first post made me feel proud, as I expressed my feelings perfectly on religious matters on the net. You can find on pg333. Tell me if it is valid or not, if not I dont know, than I am truly stupid.
but this is a debate. Anything you post here is open to being torn apart, especially on a topic such as religion. Make the post as leak-proof as you can. We will still find a weakness, and go into that, but we won't be able to shred it atleast. And, from the discussion, you will atleast come away knowing your opposition better, if not actually agreeing with them on several points.

No, but you can't expect me to know so many things, so many quatotaions from the Bible, besides most people of my age woudn't be interested in these stuff today.

Now there's a truth but still you should've known about the Spiritual Gifts.

I see nothing wrong with 'fellowship', but the point at which gatherings of Chritians become FORMAL, seems like the point at which they start to tend away from the message of the New Testament... for me, at least.

All that stuff about praying in closets, and not being seen giving, and loving your god... etc - I just don't see it lending itself easily, to the 'official' church.

I believe I can agree with what you have said.

Well, at least you beleive in God, because half the people here don't think he exists.
And that's okay ...right?

but this is a debate. Anything you post here is open to being torn apart, especially on a topic such as religion. Make the post as leak-proof as you can. We will still find a weakness, and go into that, but we won't be able to shred it atleast. And, from the discussion, you will atleast come away knowing your opposition better, if not actually agreeing with them on several points.

The thing is, that people, than get the impression that you are crazy, because of some aggresive, heavily defensive posts, and don't agree with you on some points that are facts, but for the matter lets not call them facts and call them simple logic and easy to see and comprehend that it is because of decrease in believers like the one when I said that their is De-Morilisation because of the decreasing number of believers, in which only Visual Kei agreed with me.

Did I say that?

I don't think you did.

And that's okay ...right?

That he beliefs in God yes, not the other things he said, I don't agree with most of them.

Is Corny still avoiding my questions? I guess in a discussion, only one side has to actually read and reply to the other side, huh?

Corny, if you want to engage in a discussion stop talking past people and reply to our questions. I've seen you drop several, and they weren't just mine. Dropped arguments leads to a poor debate.

Relax dude. I do have what you call a life. I will get to them. I promise you. Its going to require some thinking and right now, I do have a headache. Probably do to the front and pressure system moving though.

That one was unique to Corny. He, seemingly happily, declared GnI is going to hell.as I said, I cannot speak for any one else.

Doesn't answer the question. Would you go to Hell if that was what Faith required of you?yes.

Yes, well, there is much question about that last covenent, in fact. However, I find it hard to believe that in a slow effort to change the minds of the disciples he lied "I come only to the lost sheep of Israel" or that he, in trying to expand them away from such prejudices, refers to Gentiles by slurs.in the beginning, yes, tho in some translations I don't recall the word "Only" but I'm not gonna press that issue. However, you will notice that as he lived, he slowly includes the Gentiles in his works.

This is the JuNii I know and love. Glad to have you back.glad to be back. sorry and apologies for any stepped on feet.

Relax dude. I do have what you call a life. I will get to them. I promise you. Its going to require some thinking and right now, I do have a headache. Probably do to the front and pressure system moving though.

I'd say nearly an entire day for a thread you're actively posting in and posted in frequently since I post those questions is pretty patient.

but this is a debate. Anything you post here is open to being torn apart, especially on a topic such as religion. Make the post as leak-proof as you can. We will still find a weakness, and go into that, but we won't be able to shred it atleast. And, from the discussion, you will atleast come away knowing your opposition better, if not actually agreeing with them on several points.
Aye, thinking ahead seems to be necessary, taking your time with each post. I would also add, Maypole, that not taking things personally is important, as when people seem to be harsh while making their points. It's not really about you, but the things you said.

I'd say nearly an entire day for a thread you're actively posting in and posted in frequently since I post those questions is pretty patient.

I promise you that I will get to them. You have my word. Let my headache pass and I will get to them.

That he beliefs in God yes, not the other things he said, I don't agree with most of them.
It is the things we disagree on that carry the thread forward. If everyone agreed, the thread would be only one post long. ;)

Aye, thinking ahead seems to be necessary, taking your time with each post. I would also add, Maypole, that not taking things personally is important, as when people seem to be harsh while making their points. It's not really about you, but the things you said.

Well, if I am taking things personally forgive me, but most of you are giving me the impression that I am some Crazy Catholic Lunatic, whose hobbies are to offend people and to impose his beliefs on others. So please tell me, what do you think I am, what I have just written or something else?

It's actually a bit odd how much we have in common. I say bring back the goatee and let's really freak people out. We'll visit churches. I bet we can get burned at the stake within a year. ;)

My poor monitor. :(

(Coke, this time).

Well, if I am taking things personally forgive me, but most of you are giving me the impression that I am some Crazy Catholic Lunatic, whose hobbies are to offend people and to impose his beliefs on others. So please tell me, what do you think I am, what I have just written or something else?

I don't think you're offending anybody, just have different opinions.

I am still confused, then, about the difference between "think it might be" and "believe," as your definitions seem to rely on unrelated things (one a conclusion, the other evidence). From what we've said so far between us, one can either "think it is so" or "believe", either with evidence or without, while coming to no concrete conclusion.

"Think it may be" = Agnosticism, "Believe it is so" = True Believers. The former refuses a conclusion while the latter makes a conclusion supported by no evidence (e.g. reversing the burden of proof onto non-believers) or despite the evidence (e.g. denying the ability of empiricism to "measure" God, as Locke [whose exposition of empiricism was the first] advocated a rationalist approach when answering some questions, i.e. the existence of God.)

Nicely done, fellow.

Well, if I am taking things personally forgive me, but most of you are giving me the impression that I am some Crazy Catholic Lunatic, whose hobbies are to offend people and to impose his beliefs on others. So please tell me, what do you think I am, what I have just written or something else?
It's not about what you are. It's not "you are what you say".

Here's me. There's you. I can "see" you on my monitor (*waves*)... oh wait, no, I only see what you write. I know that's not you, but what you've tried to express.

I believe I can agree with what you have said.

You know... it carries on like this, they're going to tell us to get a room....

:D

"Think it is so" = Agnosticism, "Believe is it so" = True Believers. The former refuses a conclusion while the latter makes a conclusion supported by no evidence (e.g. reversing the burden of proof onto non-believers) or despite the evidence (e.g. denying the ability of empiricism to "measure" God, as Locke [whose exposition of empiricism was the first] advocated a rationalist approach when answering some questions, i.e. the existence of God.)

Nicely done, fellow.
Ouch! Be still, my aged agnostic heart. Agnosticism is about not knowing, not about thinking one knows.

:)

Sorry, but if you have read more previous pages, I am not English, American, I am Maltese, we speak A language derived from Arabic, so you can imagine how difficult it is for me to communicate, and its even harder for me to write it, so please on that point, I think I have an excuse. So, what's wrong If I speak with passion, didn't Christ speak with passion, didn't many other great people speak with passion and told extremley valid things. On the rushed factor, I have a strict timetable, I have loads of work, fortunatley yesterday was my free day so I could have some more time to post, so please I have also an excuse on this. Yes, maybe in some posts I wrote some unreasonable stuff, but when I wrote reasonable stuff, people ate me alive, and you begin to react. For example, personally My first post made me feel proud, as I expressed my feelings perfectly on religious matters on the net. You can find on pg333. Tell me if it is valid or not, if not I dont know, than I am truly stupid.

No, passion is a compliment. I think you have a lot of potential. Stop claiming your age is an excuse for not realizing that potential.

Read my posts. I'm very passionate.

I'm sorry that English is not your native tongue and I will keep that in mind. In this forum, communication is key so your language has to be just as well-formed as the idea so that people will understand your point.

I don't think you're stupid.

Here's the post -

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11061256&postcount=4985
How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God. That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts. Our Society is crumbling with all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble. No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World.Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing with these new 'rights' the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward, and don' tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. I can't understand why this person because a friend o his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. Ok yo get angry with God, and what you stay mad with him and become an atheist. I think his friend must be turning in her grave. If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a frien, relative that dies!!You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right. Mind you , there are already sign, all these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come. Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries and She told them that in their lifitmes they are about30-40 yeats old, an event will occeur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert. If you want believe if not you'll find soon enough. I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god',.
Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.

Now, let me edit it a bit to make it clearer. My first editorial note would be use paragraphs to seperate ideas. This post is hard to read. And be careful of spacing and punctuation. With no other change it makes the post much more clear. Here -
How sad, seeing the polls. Half don't believe in God.

That means less morals and values as it is showing in our young society. No one cares about anything anymore. Everyone just wants to do what he wants, enjoy himself party and get money, and satisfy their lustful thoughts.

Our Society is crumbling. With all the damned technology we can create we are still going to crumble.

No one cares about anything anymore. It is very easy to see, Abortion, Same-Sex marraige, Euthanasia, Legalised drugs(in a few countries), everyone marries and than divorces. All this damned liberalism is destroying the World. Alway sprotesting for their damned 'rights'. As we are seeing ,with these new 'rights', the world on a social stand(not economic social) is going backward,

And don't tell me there is an increase in equality, because capitalism is not equality. (note: you jump from talking about rights to capitalism with no clear reason for doing so, unless you're simply spewing out unchewed ideas.)

I can't understand why this person because a friend of his died, Ok it is extremley hard for a person to swallow that. (note: this isn't a sentence in any language.

Ok you get angry with God, and what? You stay mad with him and become an atheist? I think his friend must be turning in her grave.

If we agree wth you, no one should believe that God exists because everyone has a friend, relative that dies!! You have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up. (note: personal attacks. Does attacking a person's character make you proud?)

It's a shame. Only on judgement day you will see who is right.

Mind you , there are already sign. All these natural disasters, major events were predicted and more are still to come.

Also to note is that in a Place called Medjugorje in the Balkans the Holy Mary appeared to some three-five visionaries. She told them that in their lifetimes (they are about 30-40 yeats old) an event will occur in which all of us will be consious that HE Exists. Three days before this is to happen, a Priest will tell this to world. Mind you She also said that after this event occurs thier will be few time left to convert, if you want believe. If not you'll find [out] soon enough.

I wrote this because of the realisation that people think that they are 'god'.

Think of me what you like, a crazed Christian, a priest, anything but what I say is true.

(I didn't completely edit it. It still has spelling an grammatical errors. I wanted to show what a little effort will do for readability).

Now, as to the substance. You can't enter with guns blazing and think you're going to, in any way, get people to listen you. You insult people. You attack them. You are aggressive to the point of being hard to understand and then you act like you're here to save them.

Jesus offers us spiritual peace. What about this post evidences such a thing?

You know... it carries on like this, they're going to tell us to get a room....

:D

I think my girlfriend would have something to say about that.

I don't think you did.

I just have to check... I don't think I'm normally so obtuse that even I'm unclear on what I typed...

Let me just take a moment to say - if I don't take anything else from today's debate - I've enjoyed actually hitting some points of agreement with you. I'm not sure if it's because of the subject matter of the day, the fact that I finally got some sleep, or maybe Jocabia's wise words about not winning souls through preaching damnation - but I've had a number of moments of cause to respect you as a poster today.

Even if we are at each other's throats again tomorrow, thank you for today.

At least, we'll always have Paris....

Ouch! Be still, my aged agnostic heart. Agnosticism is about not knowing, not about thinking one knows.

:)

Apologies, I revised the post after posting it. It was my intention to stick with the "Think it may be" rather than the radically different "Think it is so". One is certain, the other not.

I think my girlfriend would have something to say about that.

My wife, also.

Okay, you're right. We need two rooms.

;)

My poor monitor. :(

(Coke, this time).

I giggled like a schoolgirl when I wrote it. I was pretty sure I had you that time. Just make sure you never end up spitting on your son.

I just have to check... I don't think I'm normally so obtuse that even I'm unclear on what I typed...

Let me just take a moment to say - if I don't take anything else from today's debate - I've enjoyed actually hitting some points of agreement with you. I'm not sure if it's because of the subject matter of the day, the fact that I finally got some sleep, or maybe Jocabia's wise words about not winning souls through preaching damnation - but I've had a number of moments of cause to respect you as a poster today.

Even if we are at each other's throats again tomorrow, thank you for today.

At least, we'll always have Paris....

I would like to apologize for my words to you throughout this thread. It really isn't my place to judge. I just take my faith so seriously that I want to see everyone get to heaven to enjoy the rewards that await for them there.

You are right. This has been a pleasant talk after what I was saying earlier. It is my hope that we can have other pleasant debates in the future.

And you may not believe this but I do respect you and do consider you a friend.

"Think it may be" = Agnosticism, "Believe it is so" = True Believers. The former refuses a conclusion while the latter makes a conclusion supported by no evidence (e.g. reversing the burden of proof onto non-believers) or despite the evidence (e.g. denying the ability of empiricism to "measure" God, as Locke [whose exposition of empiricism was the first] advocated a rationalist approach when answering some questions, i.e. the existence of God.)

Nicely done, fellow.
Alright, revision noted. If we are talking specifically about god, and if (if!) "think it may be" is the agnostic theist, and "believe it is so" is the theist, then the significant difference between them is in the knowing. This is a difference I can relate to: that "believing" is non-rational knowing, and "think it may be" is rational not-knowing.

I like.

I promise you that I will get to them. You have my word. Let my headache pass and I will get to them.

It's fine that you haven't. But let's not tell me to relax. I've been patient, and even defended the fact that you would reply in time last night to GnI. But you're back now, and it's a bit rude to keep letting those questions sink away without addressing them. (and yes, you've said you're thinking about them and that solves the problem. I'm referencing that you didn't mention that you would get to them later or anything until I asked you about them. You simply ignored them as far as anyone could tell.)

My wife, also.

Okay, you're right. We need two rooms.

;)

Ok, I'll drink to that :D

No, passion is a compliment. I think you have a lot of potential. Stop claiming your age is an excuse for not realizing that potential.

Read my posts. I'm very passionate.

I'm sorry that English is not your native tongue and I will keep that in mind. In this forum, communication is key so your language has to be just as well-formed as the idea so that people will understand your point.

I don't think you're stupid.

Here's the post -

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11061256&postcount=4985


Now, let me edit it a bit to make it clearer. My first editorial note would be use paragraphs to seperate ideas. This post is hard to read. And be careful of spacing and punctuation. With no other change it makes the post much more clear. Here -


(I didn't completely edit it. It still has spelling an grammatical errors. I wanted to show what a little effort will do for readability).

Now, as to the substance. You can't enter with guns blazing and think you're going to, in any way, get people to listen you. You insult people. You attack them. You are aggressive to the point of being hard to understand and then you act like you're here to save them.

Jesus offers us spiritual peace. What about this post evidences such a thing?

I was just expressing myself. It came from the frustration on how society is. Its just a sort of a cry for change in the World, not offending people, I didn't offend anyone.

Sorry, but if you have read more previous pages, I am not English, American, I am Maltese, we speak A language derived from Arabic, so you can imagine how difficult it is for me to communicate, and its even harder for me to write it, so please on that point, I think I have an excuse. So, what's wrong If I speak with passion, didn't Christ speak with passion, didn't many other great people speak with passion and told extremley valid things. On the rushed factor, I have a strict timetable, I have loads of work, fortunatley yesterday was my free day so I could have some more time to post, so please I have also an excuse on this. Yes, maybe in some posts I wrote some unreasonable stuff, but when I wrote reasonable stuff, people ate me alive, and you begin to react. For example, personally My first post made me feel proud, as I expressed my feelings perfectly on religious matters on the net. You can find on pg333. Tell me if it is valid or not, if not I dont know, than I am truly stupid.
all the more reason to slow down and go slowly. You don't have to respond to everyone.

It's fine that you haven't. But let's not tell me to relax. I've been patient, and even defended the fact that you would reply in time last night to GnI. But you're back now, and it's a bit rude to keep letting those questions sink away without addressing them. (and yes, you've said you're thinking about them and that solves the problem. I'm referencing that you didn't mention that you would get to them later or anything until I asked you about them. You simply ignored them as far as anyone could tell.)

Just hard to address when your head is pounding from the weather shift. I hate change of seasons. I will get to them.

Well, if I am taking things personally forgive me, but most of you are giving me the impression that I am some Crazy Catholic Lunatic, whose hobbies are to offend people and to impose his beliefs on others. So please tell me, what do you think I am, what I have just written or something else?

Well, let's see - the post you said you're very proud of insults the person you are replying to, calling him immature, among other things. It also complains about not making things you BELIEVE illegal. I'd say you're going to have a hard time claiming that you would NOT impose your beliefs on others given the chance and that you do NOT set out to offend. I don't think you're crazy or a lunatic, however.

I was just expressing myself. It came from the frustration on how society is. Its just a sort of a cry for change in the World, not offending people, I didn't offend anyone.

Read it again. I'd say you offended more than a couple people with that post.

Here's what you said about the original poster -
have just shown us how immature you are and how weak your charachter is, with one blow you give up.

I was just expressing myself. It came from the frustration on how society is. Its just a sort of a cry for change in the World, not offending people, I didn't offend anyone.
The tiny tadpole screaming in the night.

;)

I giggled like a schoolgirl when I wrote it. I was pretty sure I had you that time. Just make sure you never end up spitting on your son.

Yeah... he's getting pretty big now. I'll spit on him, and he'll slap me...

I would like to apologize for my words to you throughout this thread. It really isn't my place to judge. I just take my faith so seriously that I want to see everyone get to heaven to enjoy the rewards that await for them there.

You are right. This has been a pleasant talk after what I was saying earlier. It is my hope that we can have other pleasant debates in the future.

And you may not believe this but I do respect you and do consider you a friend.

We may not often (well, almost ever, usually) see eye-to-eye, but the feeling is mutual, my friend.

I also apologise if I have offended. I probably have. I am pretty offensive. ;)

It is the things we disagree on that carry the thread forward. If everyone agreed, the thread would be only one post long. ;)
well... no, we'll have tons of "I agree" posts and then the mods will move the tread to SPAM. :D

We may not often (well, almost ever, usually) see eye-to-eye, but the feeling is mutual, my friend.

I also apologise if I have offended. I probably have. I am pretty offensive. ;)

You wouldn't be you if you weren't. Just as long as I can be offensive to you in return. Do unto others :D

Yeah... he's getting pretty big now. I'll spit on him, and he'll slap me...

I think he's six months away from taking you down and showing you how the real king of the castle is.

By the by, not too get too spammy, but I told my girlfriend last night if there is any poster I was sure she would one day meet it was you. Let's not tell her how much alike we are though. Her head would explode all over the walls.

Ok, I'll drink to that :D

I'll have to get another round in... Jocabia just spilled my drink on my monitor... :D

Well, if I am taking things personally forgive me, but most of you are giving me the impression that I am some Crazy Catholic Lunatic, whose hobbies are to offend people and to impose his beliefs on others. So please tell me, what do you think I am, what I have just written or something else?
me, I think you're a person who is passionate about your faith and that you honestly do want to participate on these threads without sounding like a crazed fundie.

I'll have to get another round in... Jocabia just spilled my drink on my monitor... :D

Just as long as you pay this time.

Well, let's see - the post you said you're very proud of insults the person you are replying to, calling him immature, among other things. It also complains about not making things you BELIEVE illegal. I'd say you're going to have a hard time claiming that you would NOT impose your beliefs on others given the chance and that you do NOT set out to offend. I don't think you're crazy or a lunatic, however.

Well, sorry but in that case yes, he was in my opinion.

And if people have a right to say those things should be illegal why shoudn't I have the right to say they are illegal, I am not offending anyone. I don't ry to impose, I try to convince, that is why I may seem to impose/offend.

Tell me, which is the hardest?
(1.) To be moderate so you seem acceptable by the others.
OR
(2.) Say what you truly feel and suffer for it.

I Chose 2 and have suffered for it with several insults.

And to all those liberals, it was the French Revolution that move Liberalism in a good Political Position and it sent its message in an aggressive and passionate tone. Keep it in mind.

You wouldn't be you if you weren't. Just as long as I can be offensive to you in return. Do unto others :D
*cues violin music*

BIG GROUP HUG!

sorry...but not really;)

Alright, revision noted. If we are talking specifically about god, and if (if!) "think it may be" is the agnostic theist, and "believe it is so" is the theist, then the significant difference between them is in the knowing. This is a difference I can relate to: that "believing" is non-rational knowing, and "think it may be" is rational not-knowing.

Thank you for writing it so succintly!

Read it again. I'd say you offended more than a couple people with that post.

Here's what you said about the original poster -

Pesonally, I don't think I am offending anyone, if thats offensive to you, I don't think it is.

I would like to apologize for my words to you throughout this thread. It really isn't my place to judge. I just take my faith so seriously that I want to see everyone get to heaven to enjoy the rewards that await for them there.

You are right. This has been a pleasant talk after what I was saying earlier. It is my hope that we can have other pleasant debates in the future.

And you may not believe this but I do respect you and do consider you a friend.

Good. Then you can drop the first question.

Corny, Faith is its own reward. I want Faith for GnI without worrying about heaven or hell. And I don't know this for sure, but I think God forgives us our shortcomings even if those shortcomings divide us from him. I worry for those with hardened hearts, but GnI is no such thing. When God wants GnI, I suspect our friend WILL be found. The will and the soft heart are there. I just hope it's when NS is still around, because imagine the stir a converted GnI (funnier because of the name) would create. ;)

GnI must be writhing right now, at reading this.

You wouldn't be you if you weren't. Just as long as I can be offensive to you in return. Do unto others :D

As just about every wise man (woman) has said, at some point: "An it harm none, do as thou wilt". I'll take no offense. :)

I think he's six months away from taking you down and showing you how the real king of the castle is.

By the by, not too get too spammy, but I told my girlfriend last night if there is any poster I was sure she would one day meet it was you. Let's not tell her how much alike we are though. Her head would explode all over the walls.
ya know...I think all the serious threads have to devolve into spam every now and then as a sort of release. Up untill Maypole appeared, we were spamming it up. We've covered quite a bit of ground since then

I think he's six months away from taking you down and showing you how the real king of the castle is.

By the by, not too get too spammy, but I told my girlfriend last night if there is any poster I was sure she would one day meet it was you. Let's not tell her how much alike we are though. Her head would explode all over the walls.

That doesn't sound... pretty. :)

I have no objections to meeting your lovely lady, just so long as she knows what an uncouth and barbaric people we Englishmen are... :)

Well, sorry but in that case yes, he was in my opinion.

And if people have a right to say those things should be illegal why shoudn't I have the right to say they are illegal, I am not offending anyone. I don't ry to impose, I try to convince, that is why I may seem to impose/offend.

You want to make your beliefs law. That's very much imposing.

Tell me, which is the hardest?
(1.) To be moderate so you seem acceptable by the others.
OR
(2.) Say what you truly feel and suffer for it.

I Chose 2 and have suffered for it with several insults.

You didn't suffer because of 2. You started by calling people immature and such. You reaped what was sewn and that's a lesson straight from the Bible.

Or how about live by the sword, die by the sword. You entered the thread with a sword and got upset when you get disarmed and stabbed with it.

And to all those liberals, it was the French Revolution that move Liberalism in a good Political Position and it sent its message in an aggressive and passionate tone. Keep it in mind.

Now you're just trolling. This is a marketplace of ideas. Either express your ideas respectfully without trying to tie all the people you disagree with to violence and murder or expect people to shove the flaws in your posts down your throat.

ya know...I think all the serious threads have to devolve into spam every now and then as a sort of release. Up untill Maypole appeared, we were spamming it up. We've covered quite a bit of ground since then

Sorry, it is a bit embarrasing for me, but can you please tell me what it means, have caught some ground but not quite enough.

You want to make your beliefs law. That's very much imposing.



You didn't suffer because of 2. You started by calling people immature and such. You reaped what was sewn and that's a lesson straight from the Bible.

Or how about live by the sword, die by the sword. You entered the thread with a sword and got upset when you get disarmed and stabbed with it.



Now you're just trolling. This is a marketplace of ideas. Either express your ideas respectfully without trying to tie all the people you disagree with to violence and murder or expect people to shove the flaws in your posts down your throat.

Sorry but if yo find my posts offensive, some other people don't I come from a different culture, we may be a more primitve than you you know, so stop accusing me that I am some Inquisitor.

Pesonally, I don't think I am offending anyone, if thats offensive to you, I don't think it is.

Okay, then if we refer to you as immature and weak in character, you'll take that as an honest effort at debate or would you say we are just being rude? I'd say the latter. You can express your ideas without being insulting. You can. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure you CAN do it.

Hey Jocabia, can you telegram me what you want me to answer? that way I do not have to short through the thread to find your questions. It would be much appreciated.

My poor monitor. :(

(Coke, this time).
this time? I wonder what else was sprayed on you monitor... and what the motif must look like. :D

Okay, then if we refer to you as immature and weak in character, you'll take that as an honest effort at debate or would you say we are just being rude? I'd say the latter. You can express your ideas without being insulting. You can. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure you CAN do it.

Well if you say that in response to what? If I showed that I am weak in charachter someone should have wrote, personall I don't think I was, and if I was immature in some of the posts yes you would be right to call me that because in some of them I was and I woudn't have chosen the latter.

Good. Then you can drop the first question.

Corny, Faith is its own reward. I want Faith for GnI without worrying about heaven or hell. And I don't know this for sure, but I think God forgives us our shortcomings even if those shortcomings divide us from him. I worry for those with hardened hearts, but GnI is no such thing. When God wants GnI, I suspect our friend WILL be found. The will and the soft heart are there. I just hope it's when NS is still around, because imagine the stir a converted GnI (funnier because of the name) would create. ;)

GnI must be writhing right now, at reading this.

Not at all, I understand your heart, my friend. I appreciate your motives. :)

But then...maybe the 20 year NSG reunion will see an Atheist Jocabia.... ;)

The tiny tadpole screaming in the night.

;)
be nice please... at least he's trying to learn how to post his views properly. :)

this time? I wonder what else was sprayed on you monitor... and what the motif must look like. :D

I believe it was a coke-substitute last time, and chocolate milk the time before...

At least, I hope that's where you were going.... ;)

Sorry, it is a bit embarrasing for me, but can you please tell me what it means, have caught some ground but not quite enough.
we were talking about general random off topic things such as the current viking girlfriend/wife thing untill you came and posting something on topic and got us back to talking about god and religion

Sorry but if yo find my posts offensive, some other people don't I come from a different culture, we may be a more primitve than you you know, so stop accusing me that I am some Inquisitor.
In this alone, we have you from Malta, GnI from...the UK?, and me, corny, and jocabia from different places around the US...this is an international forum. Culture isn't an excuse, it just helped to form your opinions.

Not at all, I understand your heart, my friend. I appreciate your motives. :)

But then...maybe the 20 year NSG reunion will see an Atheist Jocabia.... ;)will that mean that Jocabia with have the goatee?

Thank you for writing it so succintly!
You're welcome!

The only problem I have with it is there is still the agnostic atheist to consider. ;)

we were talking about general random off topic things such as the current viking girlfriend/wife thing untill you came and posting something on topic and got us back to talking about god and religion


In this alone, we have you from Malta, GnI from...the UK?, and me, corny, and jocabia from different places around the US...this is an international forum. Culture isn't an excuse, it just helped to form your opinions.

I wrote that to show him exactly what you said. In each country,place,whatever people think differently from each other, so for him it may seem offensive but for me no.

will that mean that Jocabia with have the goatee?

No way, man. It looks good, but it always itches like the dickens, assuming the dickens is very, very itchy.

Well, sorry but in that case yes, he was in my opinion.

And if people have a right to say those things should be illegal why shoudn't I have the right to say they are illegal, I am not offending anyone. I don't ry to impose, I try to convince, that is why I may seem to impose/offend.

Tell me, which is the hardest?
(1.) To be moderate so you seem acceptable by the others.
OR
(2.) Say what you truly feel and suffer for it.

I Chose 2 and have suffered for it with several insults.

And to all those liberals, it was the French Revolution that move Liberalism in a good Political Position and it sent its message in an aggressive and passionate tone. Keep it in mind.You can choose to say what you feel, but if you use tact, you won't offend those of differeing viewpoints.

for example. this post of yours.
Pesonally, I don't think I am offending anyone, if thats offensive to you, I don't think it is.
this gives the impression that any misunderstanding that occurs is the readers fault. thus puts them on the defenseive as you are implying the reader is wrong. however, if you altered it by doing this.
Pesonally, I don't think I am offending anyone, if thats offensive to you, I appolgize for that is not what I meant to do.then that makes it an option that perhaps you did mistype something as well as the reader mis interpreting what you posted. you will find more people will be less offensive if you try your best not to be offensive.

as you say, English isn't your first language, thus there is always the possiblitiy that you misworded your post, causing others to mistake what you are saying.

Well if you say that in response to what? If I showed that I am weak in charachter someone should have wrote, personall I don't think I was, and if I was immature in some of the posts yes you would be right to call me that because in some of them I was and I woudn't have chosen the latter.
No that's not permissible. Character-attacks are not allowed on this forum. You can attack the argument of the poster, but you can not call him immature, an ass or anything like that. It just shows weakness if youhave to resort to namecalling.

I wrote that to show him exactly what you said. In each country,place,whatever people think differently from each other, so for him it may seem offensive but for me no.

You can make excuses, or amend your behavior. Coming into a thread with a person looking for guidance and saying things you don't actually know is rude and offensive. Don't sit there and pretend you weren't trying to insult him by calling him immature and weak. We're not fooled. It's not okay in your culture or mine and you know it.

Why are insults okay from you, but it's a terrible thing when aimed at you? Oh, oh, I know... because you missed the Do unto others part of what Jesus taught.

we were talking about general random off topic things such as the current viking girlfriend/wife thing untill you came and posting something on topic and got us back to talking about god and religion


In this alone, we have you from Malta, GnI from...the UK?, and me, corny, and jocabia from different places around the US...this is an international forum. Culture isn't an excuse, it just helped to form your opinions.

Yes, GnI is a damned limey... :)

I wrote that to show him exactly what you said. In each country,place,whatever people think differently from each other, so for him it may seem offensive but for me no.
what I'm saying is it isn't so much the ideas, it is the way it is presented.

let me show you this way, and please keep in mind that this is an example.

I disagree that there is a god. I have yet to be presented with any tangible evidence that would demonstrate the existance of such a presence, and therefore, do not believe.



What are you, stupid? You believe in a God? Only someone who is weak and unable to cope with reality would ever believe in a God.


now...both of those present the same concept...I don't believe in God. However, one attacks, the other discusses. One is offensive, the other is not.

will that mean that Jocabia with have the goatee?

It depends if we follow the "South Park" convention... also, if Jocabia is Cartman. :D

Hey Jocabia, can you telegram me what you want me to answer? that way I do not have to short through the thread to find your questions. It would be much appreciated.

I put them all as links on one page about two or three pages ago.

You're welcome!

The only problem I have with it is there is still the agnostic atheist to consider. ;)

Why? What did I do?

No that's not permissible. Character-attacks are not allowed on this forum. You can attack the argument of the poster, but you can not call him immature, an ass or anything like that. It just shows weakness if youhave to resort to namecalling.

If you scrolled back, you can see that many people offended me and that latley I haven't been uttering even a minute offensive word, but still with no results.

this time? I wonder what else was sprayed on you monitor... and what the motif must look like. :D
At least three of the four fluids that flowed from the mountain in the garden of Eden...

;)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067129&postcount=5798
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067258&postcount=5805
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11064274&postcount=5723

Here are just a couple of the dropped arguments, I am referring to.

Admittedly the last one is a bit harsh and I am CERTAINLY not suggesting Jesus was WRONG or LYING, but simply that Corny is by saying he 'changed his mind'.

Woah, 9 pages ago. You can drop the first one. You've addressed my point since then by admitting you should not condemn GnI.

Yes, GnI is a damned limey... :)
bloodly limey bastards!

by the way, I fully blame this forum for the fact that I have managed to work "bloke" and "bloody" into my vocabulary.

At least three of the four fluids that flowed from the mountain in the garden of Eden...

;)

Erm... that's a viscous... erm... vicious... rumour....

If you scrolled back, you can see that many people offended me and that latley I haven't been uttering even a minute offensive word, but still with no results.

Give it time. People don't immediately forget you were being rude earlier.

Meanwhile, simply make an effort to better express yourself in your posts and I think you'll see a general turnaround. You have lots of good things to say, but you just need to work on how you say them.

Woah, 9 pages ago. You can drop the first one. You've addressed my point since then by admitting you should not condemn GnI.

Pages kinda got away from you there, huh? :)

*TG*

Yes I believe in God. How can there not be? Does one really believe that one is the highest power on Earth? Besides, without God there is no promise of any other life beyond what we live here. Without this promise there is not hope. If we do not strive to gain eternal life then what is the purpose of life? If there is no consequence to our actions that is not carried out in this life, then why would anyone act correctly. If I believe that I will not be punished or rewarded for my actions then wouldnt I just go out and do whatever I wanted? Whether or not God is who we think she/he is, is something else entirely. I see God as the personification of hope. Death sucks. I have a friend who is seven years old and she is dying of cancer. But when she dies I will hold onto the hope that it is not all over. That one day I will see her again. If I did not believe this I would probably be dead now, having taken my own life under the pressure of this painful world. But one day the pain will end and then I will truly be able to live.

This is just what I believe. I'm not trying to make you believe it. I just think it is good for people to see other people's point.

Woah, 9 pages ago. You can drop the first one. You've addressed my point since then by admitting you should not condemn GnI.

Ok so I'll bookmark the other 2 links and get back to them.

You can make excuses, or amend your behavior. Coming into a thread with a person looking for guidance and saying things you don't actually know is rude and offensive. Don't sit there and pretend you weren't trying to insult him by calling him immature and weak. We're not fooled. It's not okay in your culture or mine and you know it.

Why are insults okay from you, but it's a terrible thing when aimed at you? Oh, oh, I know... because you missed the Do unto others part of what Jesus taught.

My God try to look at this this way, if you see somone killing somone, what do you call him?
A murderer.
In my case I saw his reaction, and I said that he was immature and weak, because I believe that If you have one major blow you don't give up, and thats why I called him that, not to offend him.(When I Offended somone I made it quite clear).
NB. You don't know anything about my culture, even if you come here every year or spend the rest of your life here,with tourists we are much friendlier, between each other we show who we really are. Just to give you an idea, from where I come I am considered as a very unoffensive and not aggressive, so looks may be deceiving.

Give it time. People don't immediately forget you were being rude earlier.

Meanwhile, simply make an effort to better express yourself in your posts and I think you'll see a general turnaround. You have lots of good things to say, but you just need to work on how you say them.

Yeah that has been the general problem when I say the good things i find someone who calls me by some name, and you know everyone's patience has a limit.

No that's not permissible. Character-attacks are not allowed on this forum. You can attack the argument of the poster, but you can not call him immature, an ass or anything like that. It just shows weakness if youhave to resort to namecalling.

You actually called God an **shole so see what you've done before accusing others.

Yes I believe in God. How can there not be? Does one really believe that one is the highest power on Earth?
No, more that there is no "highest power". I don't consider humans to be higher than any other animal
Besides, without God there is no promise of any other life beyond what we live here. Without this promise there is not hope. If we do not strive to gain eternal life then what is the purpose of life? If there is no consequence to our actions that is not carried out in this life, then why would anyone act correctly. If I believe that I will not be punished or rewarded for my actions then wouldnt I just go out and do whatever I wanted?
I don't believe in an afterlife. I have hope for the future, both my own, and that of my (hopefully some day, but currently hypothetical) children and grandchildren. As I have said before, I act the way I do because of how it impacts me in this life. I don't kill because I find it to be wrong. I don't intentionally hurt other people because I find that to be wrong. I don't need to worry about being punished some day. Cosmic spankings don't worry me.

Whether or not God is who we think she/he is, is something else entirely. I see God as the personification of hope. Death sucks. I have a friend who is seven years old and she is dying of cancer. But when she dies I will hold onto the hope that it is not all over. That one day I will see her again. If I did not believe this I would probably be dead now, having taken my own life under the pressure of this painful world. But one day the pain will end and then I will truly be able to live.
see, that is a very nice though, but I've never been able to buy into it.
I don't find this life to be too much to deal with. I find strength from myself, my family, and my friends. They get me through the pain of this life. But honestly, I don't find this life to be something I'm just "suffering " through, just in hopes of something better some day.



and on that note, my resumes are done printing, which means it is time to go find a damn job.:(

My God try to look at this this way, if you see somone killing somone, what do you call him?
A murderer.

Uh-huh. And what he is doing is equally offensive. Seeking guidance? I know the times I've sought counsel the first response is always "you're immature and weak".

In my case I saw his reaction, and I said that he was immature and weak, because I believe that If you have one major blow you don't give up, and thats why I called him that, not to offend him.
Hmmm... can you tell more about his history, please? You appear to know more about it than I. Or maybe you're making an unfounded assumption and using it to justify your behavior. No, you will not convince me that your insults were appropriate.

Moreso, you claim to believe in God. Do you think you've fooled God? I know you haven't. There is a huge and clear message in the Bible - take responsibility for your actions.

I've seen you blame, your age, your language, other posters and your culture for your behavior. How about heaping a little bit of that blame on *gasp* MAYPOLE.

(When I Offended somone I made it quite clear).
Oh, wait, so you have been offensive in this thread. Which is it? A minute ago you hadn't been offensive. Glad we're getting somewhare.

NB. You don't know anything about my culture, even if you come here every year or spend the rest of your life here,with tourists we are much friendlier, between each other we show who we really are. Just to give you an idea, from where I come I am considered as a very unoffensive and not aggressive, so looks may be deceiving.
More assumptions. Tell me more about what I do and do not know. I'm interested to hear how you've so quickly assessed what I CANNOT know.

Meanwhile, I can look at the evidence. I see what offends you and what you consider offensive when it comes out of your mouth and they are not equal. You hold other people to a standard you don't meet. That's called a hypocrite. Jesus mentions them a bit too.

Out of curiosity, is there any part of this YOU are responsible for or does the blame fall on everyone and everything else and Maypole is blameless?

bloodly limey bastards!

by the way, I fully blame this forum for the fact that I have managed to work "bloke" and "bloody" into my vocabulary.

We're just doing our part to bring siphilisation to the savages.... :D

Yeah that has been the general problem when I say the good things i find someone who calls me by some name, and you know everyone's patience has a limit.

Yes and you tried everyone's with your very first post in the thread and have seemed to justify it by continuing on that path. I can't control other people. Neither can you. But you can control Maypole and stop with the nonsense, and change what MAYPOLE does. I've seen you not even suggest you'd try thus far. All I've seen are excuses.

You actually called God an **shole so see what you've done before accusing others.

Are you god?

I have to ask... because god is a big boy, I hear... and can fight his own battles.

If a poster says 'god is an asshole', that is between that poster and god... it doesn't justify YOU insulting anyone.

Woah, 9 pages ago. You can drop the first one. You've addressed my point since then by admitting you should not condemn GnI.
Yep... this thread is growing fast.... having a hard time getting caught up today... :(

Uh-huh. And what he is doing is equally offensive. Seeking guidance? I know the times I've sought counsel the first response is always "you're immature and weak".

First of all, sometimes to help a person you have to be harsh and you know it, maybe I went to far I apologise.
Hmmm... can you tell more about his history, please? You appear to know more about it than I. Or maybe you're making an unfounded assumption and using it to justify your behavior. No, you will not convince me that your insults were appropriate.

Who told you I knew everything about him, I only spoke of his reaction which I still consider immature.
Moreso, you claim to believe in God. Do you think you've fooled God? I know you haven't. There is a huge and clear message in the Bible - take responsibility for your actions.

No, you can't fool God.
I've seen you blame, your age, your language, other posters and your culture for your behavior. How about heaping a little bit of that blame on *gasp* MAYPOLE.

Ok, I BLAME MYSELF FOR BEING EXTREMLY CURIOUS THAT I EVEN CONSIDERED POSTING IN THIS THREAD, FOR BEING AGGRESIVE AT TIMES, AND LOSING MY TEMPER ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, FOR NOT SRUCTURING MY POSTS WELL AND FINALLY FOR MY STUPID SELF-BELIEF THAT SOMEONE WOULD TURN OUT THAT INSTEAD OF POINTING OUT MY MISTAKES OR AGGRESIVENESS WOULD POST A POST THAT WOULD NOT MENTION ANY OF THESE AND AGREE ON A POINT WITH ME!.These,sir Are the things that I blame myself for, nothing more,nothing less, Capiche?I apologise for these faults of mine.

Oh, wait, so you have been offensive in this thread. Which is it? A minute ago you hadn't been offensive. Glad we're getting somewhare.

That is a LIE
More assumptions. Tell me more about what I do and do not know. I'm interested to hear how you've so quickly assessed what I CANNOT know.

Meanwhile, I can look at the evidence. I see what offends you and what you consider offensive when it comes out of your mouth and they are not equal. You hold other people to a standard you don't meet. That's called a hypocrite. Jesus mentions them a bit too.

Out of curiosity, is there any part of this YOU are responsible for or does the blame fall on everyone and everything else and Maypole is blameless?
...

Are you god?

I have to ask... because god is a big boy, I hear... and can fight his own battles.

If a poster says 'god is an asshole', that is between that poster and god... it doesn't justify YOU insulting anyone.

Who told you I was justified? I just said that some people should look at their actions before judging other people. I have repeatedly stated and admitted my faults.

...
maypole... please calm down. you're confusing the arguments and not making sense. I suggest a short break.

maypole... please calm down. you're confusing the arguments and not making sense. I suggest a short break.

Don't worry, I will soon go to bed, many people must be relieved to hear this.:p

Oh, wait, so you have been offensive in this thread. Which is it? A minute ago you hadn't been offensive. Glad we're getting somewhare.

That is a LIE


I didn't offend anyone.

Careful, friend. It appears I speak the truth. Meanwhile, I'm just trying to get you to see what part of the problem you can control. You have full control over what you do. Take control. Make better posts. You'll still get some rude people, but you will get much better responses from others.

Don't worry, I will soon go to bed, many people must be relieved to hear this.:p
well, at least your english is slowly improving. :D

Careful, friend. It appears I speak the truth. Meanwhile, I'm just trying to get you to see what part of the problem you can control. You have full control over what you do. Take control. Make better posts. You'll still get some rude people, but you will get much better responses from others.

My friend, nobody speaks the whole truth,only God does. I will have to go now, I have gotten tired now. Altough I may seem to be fighting with you guys I actually respect most of you and have a postive view of you. Shall we shake hands before we leave, so at least we will stop debating on a positve note?;)

My friend, nobody speaks the whole truth,only God does. I will have to go now, I have gotten tired now. Altough I may seem to be fighting with you guys I actually respect most of you and have a postive view of you. Shall we shake hands before we leave, so at least we will stop debating on a positve note?;)

I told you. I expect a lot of you. I see a mountain of potential. This is why you are being counselled. I want to see you find a way to express yourself better so you can hash out your ideas with us. And if you knew me, you'd know that's a big compliment.

Rest your Maltese, fifteen-year-old 'Crazed Christian Lunatic' head, my friend. We'll see you when you're rested.

I told you. I expect a lot of you. I see a mountain of potential. This is why you are being counselled. I want to see you find a way to express yourself better so you can hash out your ideas with us. And if you knew me, you'd know that's a big compliment.

Rest your Maltese, fifteen-year-old 'Crazed Christian Lunatic' head, my friend. We'll see you when you're rested.

Thanks, hopefully tomorrow, if I have a chance I will pop in, and see how things are going, and I'll keep to yours and many others advice, to try to send my message more clearly. See you later.

Thanks, hopefully tomorrow, if I have a chance I will pop in, and see how things are going, and I'll keep to yours and many others advice, to try to send my message more clearly. See you later.

Take Care Maypole :)

My friend, nobody speaks the whole truth,only God does. I will have to go now, I have gotten tired now. Altough I may seem to be fighting with you guys I actually respect most of you and have a postive view of you. Shall we shake hands before we leave, so at least we will stop debating on a positve note?;)
Just so you don't think it is only our Christian friends who see this potential, I do too.

The only thing that gets me still is that you are looking for someone to come out and agree with you. In my opinion, this should not matter. You know what you believe. Don't be afraid to say it, even if it is unpopular. That isn't to say be agressive with it. You should still have tact...but by and large, the only way you truly understand your position is to have it challenged, ripped to shreds, sewn back together, and ripped apart a dozen times over.

I actually prefer having someone against me than with me. I've followed Jocabia around this forum for a while and always respected him as a poster (creeped out yet, Jocabia?), but this is the first time I've conversed with him directly. I know he can, and almost certainly will, give me a run for my money, make me question what I think, and make me work to defend it. And in the end, I will know my position that much better than I originally did. Same goes for JuNii. And I'm sure, once he gets to answering those questions, corny...although, I still have yet to actually go up against him, even in this thread...

Just so you don't think it is only our Christian friends who see this potential, I do too.

The only thing that gets me still is that you are looking for someone to come out and agree with you. In my opinion, this should not matter. You know what you believe. Don't be afraid to say it, even if it is unpopular. That isn't to say be agressive with it. You should still have tact...but by and large, the only way you truly understand your position is to have it challenged, ripped to shreds, sewn back together, and ripped apart a dozen times over.

I actually prefer having someone against me than with me. I've followed Jocabia around this forum for a while and always respected him as a poster (creeped out yet, Jocabia?), but this is the first time I've conversed with him directly. I know he can, and almost certainly will, give me a run for my money, make me question what I think, and make me work to defend it. And in the end, I will know my position that much better than I originally did. Same goes for JuNii. And I'm sure, once he gets to answering those questions, corny...although, I still have yet to actually go up against him, even in this thread...

*blushes*

I love having many of you disagree with me as much as agreeing with me. For the same reasons you list. There is nothing more frustrating than an argument where you feel like a bully or where the person doesn't want to hear what you want to say. Maypole, you're lucky to be where you are. Yes, you're going to get dogpiled by the rigorous anti-Christian folk, but you're also going to find a lot of people who are willing to hear what you have to say if you find a way to voice it well. Being a dogmatic Christian on this board is a big challenge... think you're up to the task? I do.

*blushes*

I love having many of you disagree with me as much as agreeing with me. For the same reasons you list. There is nothing more frustrating than an argument where you feel like a bully or where the person doesn't want to hear what you want to say. Maypole, you're lucky to be where you are. Yes, you're going to get dogpiled by the rigorous anti-Christian folk, but you're also going to find a lot of people who are willing to hear what you have to say if you find a way to voice it well. Being a dogmatic Christian on this board is a big challenge... think you're up to the task? I do.
haha...*bows*

is it a bad thing that when too many people on here agree with me, I start to get nervous that I'm wrong?

haha...*bows*

is it a bad thing that when too many people on here agree with me, I start to get nervous that I'm wrong?

Hmmm... I suppose it depends on what you're talking about. Like I said, the dogpile mentality exists among some and I generally try to stay out of those dogpiles. Some things are purely opinion. Jumping down someone's throat because they disagree with you and because the majority of NS agrees with you is just vicious. On the other hand if you are grouped with a bunch of people because one side is making falsifiable and falsified claims, that's a different story.

haha...*bows*

is it a bad thing that when too many people on here agree with me, I start to get nervous that I'm wrong?

It's why I generally stick to peanut gallery (and ironically always bring popcorn).

The most important things the bible espouses to Christianity, (New testament, obviously) are the birth, death, and ressurection of Jesus.
Acceptance of this, is absolutely crucial, and strictly required to be a christian.

Actually, one can indeed be a Christian without believing in the birth, death, and resurrection. A Christian is a person who tries to follow in the path of Christ, becoming like him. Traditionally, most of these folks have followed what you have described, which is essentially High Christology (the belief that Christ was divine and did all sorts of cool stuff like being immaculately conceived and rising from the dead). But there are some folks who prefer some form of Low Christology, in which Christ was a very good man with wonderful teachings that should be followed. One doesn't need the hocus-pocus to follow the teachings of Christ, to live a life of love in communion with God and one's fellow man. In fact, for some people the rituals and the theology seem to just detract from their ability to live in a Christ-like fashion, working as an unnecessary distraction from a life well-lived. For others, the rituals and theology are instrumental in ensuring their ability to live that life, giving them renewed strength and reminding them of the path they must walk.

Actually, one can indeed be a Christian without believing in the birth, death, and resurrection. A Christian is a person who tries to follow in the path of Christ, becoming like him. Traditionally, most of these folks have followed what you have described, which is essentially High Christology (the belief that Christ was divine and did all sorts of cool stuff like being immaculately conceived and rising from the dead). But there are some folks who prefer some form of Low Christology, in which Christ was a very good man with wonderful teachings that should be followed. One doesn't need the hocus-pocus to follow the teachings of Christ, to live a life of love in communion with God and one's fellow man. In fact, for some people the rituals and the theology seem to just detract from their ability to live in a Christ-like fashion, working as an unnecessary distraction from a life well-lived. For others, the rituals and theology are instrumental in ensuring their ability to live that life, giving them renewed strength and reminding them of the path they must walk.

Yes, I've gotten the 'true Christian' fallacy a few times in my short career as a human being, but I'm quite amused that I just had an Atheist tell me that if I don't follow Christianity by his rules I'm not a Christian. I find that a bit odd. Christianity is about Christ. What I believe on those things he mentioned are an aside, in my opinion, to whether I adhere to the teachings that Christ left for us. Frankly, one could technically believe Christ is a legend but still follow the teachings and be a Christian of a sort.

It's why I generally stick to peanut gallery (and ironically always bring popcorn).
Buttered, right? *smacks lips* :p

Frankly, one could technically believe Christ is a legend but still follow the teachings and be a Christian of a sort.

Precisely. It does amuse me when folks insist on having a particular form or expression of Christianity so they can attack it more easily.

Precisely. It does amuse me when folks insist on having a particular form or expression of Christianity so they can attack it more easily.

Well, it's the same poster who declares 'we've searched the entire room'. He should publish his findings. He'll be famous. The first one to actually prove the non-existence of God. I hope he uses the Pink Unicorn Analogy or PUA as it will now be called, because it's flawless.

Buttered, right? *smacks lips* :p

Naturally. :D

Well, it's the same poster who declares 'we've searched the entire room'. He should publish his findings. He'll be famous. The first one to actually prove the non-existence of God. I hope he uses the Pink Unicorn Analogy or PUA as it will now be called, because it's flawless.

I've an issue with the IPU...When they're invisible and pink at the same time, and the say that's impossible, they're of great spritual power, but when God's omni-this, omni-that, and benevolent, and that's impossible, he's somewhat less. That's why I'll follow the FSM.

I've an issue with the IPU...When they're invisible and pink at the same time, and the say that's impossible, they're of great spritual power, but when God's omni-this, omni-that, and benevolent, and that's impossible, he's somewhat less. That's why I'll follow the FSM.

Okay, I followed up until FSM. What is FSM? What am I missing there? (I'm quite sure I'll smack my head when you tell me.)

Okay, I followed up until FSM. What am I missing there? (I'm quite sure I'll smack my head when you tell me.)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

Okay, I followed up until FSM. What am I missing there? (I'm quite sure I'll smack my head when you tell me.)

May you be touched by his noodly apendage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)

May you be touched by his noodly apendage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster)

He better not touch me with his noodly appendage. I'm really hungry right now... :p

Well, it's the same poster who declares 'we've searched the entire room'. He should publish his findings. He'll be famous. The first one to actually prove the non-existence of God. I hope he uses the Pink Unicorn Analogy or PUA as it will now be called, because it's flawless.
actually, it's not.

actually, it's not.

Hence Jocabia's sarcasm. :)

He better not touch me with his noodly appendage. I'm really hungry right now... :p

Then eat some pasta, eh? You know how Jesus does the whole wine = blood bread = body thing (for the kiddies, grape juice = blood and crackers = body).

Then eat some pasta, eh? You know how Jesus does the whole wine = blood bread = body thing (for the kiddies, grape juice = blood and crackers = body).

I was actually considering getting some ravioli for dinner for just that reason, but I'm fasting at the moment so it's not really something I can do.

Hence Jocabia's sarcasm. :)
:headbang: that's what happens when I post between troublecalls.

for a minute there I thought Jocabia liked the touch of noodliy appendages. :D

:headbang: that's what happens when I post between troublecalls.

for a minute there I thought Jocabia liked the touch of noodliy appendages. :D
Who doesn't like the touch of noodily appendages? :rolleyes:
If God didn't want us to be touched by noodily appendages, then he wouldn't have created the flying spaghetti monster, would he?

I did?
I think so. I just don't remember where. I'd have to go look that up.


The evidence is all around if you have your eyes and ears open.
You'll note, Corny, that you will not likely find so much as ONE SINGLE post of me saying "There is no god".
That's not the point.
The point is to scrutinize your allegiances instead of overindulging in sick sycophantic urge for desperate emotional rationale.
As is "the evidence is all around if you have your eyes and ears open." - not A SINGLE IOTA OF anything matching that directive is exclusive to the finer points of judeo-christian bs. The books don't have an angle on that market, and are a pathetic excuse for mental and spiritual maturity. I don't apologize for that at all. Simply put, THEY FAIL TRUE-LIFE EXPERIENCE.

Why just you don't tell us that you are a BIG ATHEIST and get over it instead of launching a personal unfounded unsupported attack against me when you don't know a single damned thing about me.
One, cause i'm not, but thanks anyway, sweetie.
Two, i don't actually know anything about you IRL, James ... so see my post right above and see if there's any correlation. :)

Basically, in this particular environment, i can only do the best i can with the material i'm given. No holes barred.

My God, never knew you hated me so much, shall I cut my head for you maybe it will make you happy?:p
No, no, au contraire - you're quite entertaining! How can i hate you if i haven't loved you yet?
...but i'm working on it ... :fluffle:
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/1468.gif

Ohhh... I remember that Episode... damn, now I have a greater desire to pick up those DVD's...
I couldn't resist. One of the things i remember watching before serious depression kicked in. So i can get the *GOOD* nostalgia! :)
I got all of 'em, and i watch 'em while i'm doing this and waiting for calls.
This was a better show than i ever really knew (but had the feeling for) ...

43.) ARGUMENT FROM SPEAKING IN TONGUES
(1) See that person spazzing on the church floor babbling incoherently?
(2) That's how infinite wisdom reveals itself.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

www.godlessgeeks.com
Hahahhaaha!!!! *FLORT*

BABALITY!
*cues Mortal Combat music*

Maybe you are a puppet of me. My matralineal line is Jewish. My father's line is Catholic for a long way. My ethnicity is Nordic. I'm close in height, weight and description to you. Are you my 'evil' twin? Jocabia, the Atheist version. Only one way to tell. Do you have a goatee?
Hahaha!
*FLORT*
Funny thing, our heraldry features an earth with a dagger through the poles! :p

No... wait! We were going to get drunk and pillage people later, don't go!
Raping the land and pillaging the women? :eek:
Those ARE evil men. *nods solemnly*

getting drunk?! Pillaging?!


I'm there.
You should've held out for thread 'jacking.

I'm MUCH better now *tribute to John Astin on Night Court*).You ROCK. *bows*

I think my girlfriend would have something to say about that.
Is she your pimp? ;)
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/250.gif

so stop accusing me that I am some Inquisitor.
Far beyond me .... that honour is employed by Verdigroth.

No way, man. It looks good, but it always itches like the dickens, assuming the dickens is very, very itchy.
They've got some ointment for that now, as well as some kind of pill regimen. And clean livin'.

I know he is real. I cannot prove that he is real but I know that He is real. Just because there is no proof that something is real doesn't mean that it isn't.
Argument from ignorance fallacy.

And if you know god is real you can prove god is real. If you cannot, don't make the claim. It's that simple.

Well the answer is simple, ours is a Historic religion while theirs isn't.
Hinduism is older than judaism.

And the jews never left their god. Stop spitting on the jews.

And yet...the one true God has had the prophecies fulfilled.
But there aren't any.

At least three of the four fluids that flowed from the mountain in the garden of Eden...

;)
Hippocrates covered all that:

blood (spring, air, liver)
black bile (autumn, earth, gall bladder)
yellow bile (summer, fire, spleen)
phlegm (winter, water, brain/lungs)

Erm... that's a viscous... erm... vicious... rumour....
:)

Tounges is one of the 7 spiritual gifts.
Actually--isn't not. That part of Mark was added about 200 years after Mark was originally written. Mark originally ended at 16:8.

Nice to have an atheist tell you about your book, huh?

I would rather believe in God and be wrong and end up being dirt than not believe in God andbe wrong and end up somewhere I don't want to be...
Which god? Better believe in all of them, just to be safe.

To whoever said there are no prophicies, in the bible there are somewhere around 360 prophicies spoken of in the old testament that jesus fullfills later

Yes I believe in God. How can there not be? Does one really believe that one is the highest power on Earth? Besides, without God there is no promise of any other life beyond what we live here.
So that's the reason for your belief: you're terrified of death.

Oh well. Get over it.

Then eat some pasta, eh? You know how Jesus does the whole wine = blood bread = body thing (for the kiddies, grape juice = blood and crackers = body).
I covered that, IIRC. :D

To whoever said there are no prophicies, in the bible there are somewhere around 360 prophicies spoken of in the old testament that jesus fullfills later
Actually, there are 0 that jesus fills. Absolutely none. No virgin birth. No 3 days in the ground (which there isn't even a prophecy for!). Nothing.

I was actually considering getting some ravioli for dinner for just that reason, but I'm fasting at the moment so it's not really something I can do.
So of course, you're instead feasting on this internet cornucopia/corpus of "knowledge and vitae?" :p

No.

And even if there was a God, she wouldn't deserve our worship.

im agnostic but i lean towards no. but what make you think god is a she?

So of course, you're instead feasting on this internet cornucopia/corpus of "knowledge and vitae?" :p

Yeah. That was it.

>.>

<.<

im agnostic but i lean towards no. but what make you think god is a she?
I think it could be the tumescence i get when i think about her too long ...
or how i'd like to have her barefoot & pregnant while i'm off having a beer at the tavern ...
it could be the *huge* shoe collection ..
i'm sure there's some other reasons that are based in emotional rationale ...

But it's probably the perfume.

Argument from ignorance fallacy.

And if you know god is real you can prove god is real. If you cannot, don't make the claim. It's that simple.

I love these arguments. I sang a song ten minutes ago and then farted. I know I did that. I'm very positive. Can I prove it to you?

Now, the fact I can't prove it obviously doesn't mean it must be true, but certainly the fact that I can't prove it doesn't mean it must be false.

And that is the argument from ignorance fallacy. Or were you just pointing out what fallacy you were about to use?

if your calling believing without proof stupid, u cant talk, the word faith means to believe without proof, there is no proof that can say there is no god or that there is a god, so everyone has faith,

bawk knights says there are no prohpecies, u should read the bible first, the entire book of Isaiah is full of prophecies,

I love these arguments.
You're the one making the existentially positive claim. You get to back it.

If not-Don't. Make. The. Claim. Get it?

[snip the blatantly false analogy]

Did you have any valid point to make?

bawk knights says there are no prohpecies, u should read the bible first,
I have. Isaiah is full of non-fulfilled prophecies. Such as the child spoken of in Isaiah 7:14, who is then born in Isaiah 8. The prophecy was that King Ahaz would be victorious over Kings Pekah and Rezin because of the birth of that child. 2 Chronicles shows that Ahaz lost.

And no--there is no such thing as a double-meaning prophecy. That's something invented by the xers and is non-judaic. It's meant to spit on the jews.

Do you really want to lock horns with someone who knows your wholly babble far better than you could ever hope to?

You're the one making the existentially positive claim. You get to back it.

If not-Don't. Make. The. Claim. Get it?

[snip the blatantly false analogy]

Did you have any valid point to make?

Okay, I'll try again since you still don't know what the fallacy you brought up is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or argument by lack of imagination, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.

You know what the fact that it hasn't been proven, proves? That it hasn't been proven true. You're correct that we cannot assume something is proven simply because it hasn't been proven false. In fact, since you're not following along, but you're accusing me of things, I say that it can NEVER be proven in the way you're asking. However, you also cannot assume something is disproven simply because it can't be proven. You know why? Because it's an argument from ignorance fallacy.

Again, thanks for telling us what fallacy you were going to use before you used it. It made me laugh heartily and I suspect when others arrive they will enjoy it equally. Please post it again. It does actually get funnier.

Meanwhile, what makes you think I need to prove something to YOU in order for me to believe it?

Okay, I'll try again since you still don't know what the fallacy you brought up is.
Yet I do. So you're just evading doing what you need to do, which is providing the evidence for your claim.

Oh--I'm not assuming that something is disproven simply because it can't be proven. That's what we who know what fallacies are call a "strawman". However, I know that you can't even coherently define for me "god" without delving into logical fallacies or inconsistencies (which, of course, makes your claim null and void a priori).

So thanks for being a coward and not providing the evidence for your claim.

Actually, there are 0 that jesus fills. Absolutely none. No virgin birth. No 3 days in the ground (which there isn't even a prophecy for!). Nothing.
Actually there are alot of prophecies that predict the Comming of Jesus. spread out through the old testament.

Actually there are alot of prophecies that predict the Comming of Jesus. spread out through the old testament.
No, there are not. They speak of the davidic savior, who is a great military and political leader who will reunite the diaspora, usher in the age of peace and knowledge, and rebuild the temple.

Jesus didn't do ANY of those.

Yet I do. So you're just evading doing what you need to do, which is providing the evidence for your claim.

Oh--I'm not assuming that something is disproven simply because it can't be proven. That's what we who know what fallacies are call a "strawman". However, I know that you can't even coherently define for me "god" without delving into logical fallacies or inconsistencies (which, of course, makes your claim null and void a priori).

So thanks for being a coward and not providing the evidence for your claim.
and no evidence to support your claim either.
Argument from ignorance fallacy.

And if you know god is real you can prove god is real. If you cannot, don't make the claim. It's that simple.prove God ISN'T real.

and no help from anyone else please. this expert who knows more about the bible than anyone is about to prove that remark also.
Do you really want to lock horns with someone who knows your wholly babble far better than you could ever hope to?
I await your proof.

Yet I do. So you're just evading doing what you need to do, which is providing the evidence for your claim.

Oh--I'm not assuming that something is disproven simply because it can't be proven. That's what we who know what fallacies are call a "strawman".

Hmmm... perhaps a quote is appropriate.

And if you know god is real you can prove god is real. If you cannot, don't make the claim. It's that simple.

This is a clear argument from ignorance fallacy. He can make the claim all he likes. He can know God is real and not be able to prove it. To argue otherwise is an argument from ignorance fallacy. And since I can quote you actually stating that if God is real we must be able to prove it, it's not a strawman. That's the second fallacy you misused. What's next?


However, I know that you can't even coherently define for me "god" without delving into logical fallacies or inconsistencies (which, of course, makes your claim null and void a priori).

You know what I can and can't do? Amusing. Tell me more about me. I'm interested. Can you tell me what my claim is, please? I'd like to know what claim we're talking about.

So thanks for being a coward and not providing the evidence for your claim.

Ha. Now, I'm a coward. You are actually arguing for MY claim about God. You're providing me plenty of evidence, but since you don't know what MY claim is and have been just making crap up, I don't suspect you actually realize that you're backing up my claims.

Meanwhile, you still prove that you are arguing from ignorance. Not all things that are true can be proven. That's the basis of the argument from ignorance being a fallacy. The fact that you keep arguing that if it were true it would have to be proven, just helps that case further.

and no evidence to support your claim either.
I made no claim.


prove God ISN'T real.
Fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

Try again, kiddo.

This is a clear argument from ignorance fallacy.
No, it's not. You clearly don't know what one is.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.



You know what I can and can't do?
Yes.

Meanwhile, you prove that you're using the Dial-A-Fallacy fallacy. That's where you just spin the fallacy wheel and claim your opponent is using a certain fallacy, but you have nothing with which to back it.

I made no claim.

Yes, you are. I'll quote the claim.

And if you know god is real you can prove god is real. If you cannot, don't make the claim. It's that simple.

In other words you claim if God is real he must emperically proven. The obvious conclusion of such claim is that since is he isn't emperically proven he is not real. And you were asked to prove such a claim. See there are four possible outcomes here, but you try to pretend like there are only two -

God is real, we can prove it.
God is real, we can't prove it.
God is not real, we can prove it.
God is not real, we can't prove it.

You seem to forget that absent of emperical proof God can still exist. Beings are very rarely defined by our knowledge of them. Or did the platypus not exist until it could be proven to exist?

hi ppl, im kinda new here, but no in the subject of faith and the mind, iv been all my mental life (since i have the abiliti of reason) thinking about all stuff of god, religion, the human, etc, and i made some conclutions:
-i believe in a dual god, neither good or evil, cause, how u define this 2 terms; good: something that makes a person feel fine, but that doenst mean anything(the drugs make u feel fine, but they damage ur body, soo at the end they rnt good), so lets make another definition, good is wat makes the life continues and alows another human 2 life as much as he can and as fine as he can(but seeing good from that way, then, diyng is a good thing, cause when somone dies he lets someone else lives, the problem is the feling of the sorrounding ppl of the dead one, but when an organism die another one can live from it, so it lets another ppl live, but in their mind they die a bit); and bad or evil is..., wat makes other ppl suffer, but... when somone die other ppl sufer, but that makes oportunities for others, makes space for other animals (including ppl), so thats no bad at all, and seeing boths terms from different points of view u can get different definitions, but at the end, u allways finish comparing whit the other term; so good is wats not bad, and bad is wats not good.(all of this is not soo workd cause this is a casual rasoning, this wasnt prepared, even trough that i had a life or thinking, the ideas r there, but im not going 2 write them all, plus i dont know that much of english xP).
knowing both conceps u cant separate them, somthing is good and bad, therefore, god is both, the holy and the devil, he is above us, and beneath us, he is in us and surrounding us; i believe there is a god, but i dont believe he is in a continuos fight for us whit the debil, i think he is an all, and being it, we r him, we r not make at his image, we r is image, he is us, at the same time that we r him, being all that way, when we die, we dont disapear, cause remember that we r him, so wat we see that banish, realy didnt banish, maib it just move, or transform; when someone die he may b the part of a newborn, soo, why should we get sad when someone let another human live, why we have 2 b so sellfish, mayb, the live of ur friend ended when she married, mayb ended when she was treated like garbage by somone, mayb his life ended in other moment, and it wanst the same, u cant know wat was on her mind, u can only know about was she showed, once i read a phrase, it was in spanish so ill try 2 translate is the best i can: we wont b known for our silent thought.
i cant assure u that she was unhappy, cant assure u that she was death before u know, i cant assure u nothing, but think that if she died it was cause of somthing, remember that the path of the life dont end whit the death, the death is justthe end of an object, and whitout that object wat u think that can limit u; but... this last reasoning only can mather if u believe in the soul, i believe, cause if we dont have soul, wats the difference bwn us and a puppet or a doll, or a genetic created animal (including human). i believe in that and i hope iv been usefull, correct m if im wrong, cause whit my english i think i could made a mistake expresing my self.

*:i wont argue if god exist or not, mayb later, im a lil tired, but stop whit the shit of fallency, ok, fine u cant prove it, that doenst mean is not true, but, stop pointing the error of the other, just have an open mind, u cant say god donst exist cause u cant prove it, but u can say he axist and u can make a mistake, who knows, but... think which one is the best answer thinking about the population, think about the godles pandemonium is whe dont believe in such god, at least if god is just an idea, lets make that idea prebails, lets make that idea so strong that it makes real, lets create for ourselfs the heaven, having a life 2 remember after death.

No, it's not. You clearly don't know what one is.

Please stop embarrassing yourself.

Uh-huh. Let's post what it is again. This is fun. Keep saying black is white. We all believe you.

The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or argument by lack of imagination, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or that a premise is false only because it has not been proven true.

Hey, but don't let the definition of something stop you from pretending it means something else.



Yes.

Meanwhile, you prove that you're using the Dial-A-Fallacy fallacy. That's where you just spin the fallacy wheel and claim your opponent is using a certain fallacy, but you have nothing with which to back it.
Really? Let's see what fallacy, I've talked about. I introduce the argument form ignorance claim. No, wait, that was you. I introduced the strawman claim. No, wait, that was you too. I introduced the shifting the burden fallacy. No, wait, that was YOU. I introduced the dial-a-fallacy. Nope, you as well.

Seriously, did you just but logical fallacy of day toilet paper and then get the runs?

In fact, you've not addressed a single argument of mine with other than stating it's a fallacy, just picking anything at random or by making up something about what I can't do (while changing the subject) or what I'm claiming. I can't wait till you take another crap. I want to find out what the next fallacy on the roll is.

Yes, you are.
No, I'm not. You can quote what you think is a claim, but it's actually just part of reality. Knowledge implies that you have some means to demonstrate it. That's what knowledge means.

Oh well-looks like you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

And you seem to be operating under your strawman view of what I've been saying. Here's a torch so you can set fire to it and stop using it.

Uh-huh. Let's post what it is again.
Fine. Won't make any difference because you're the utter idiot who keeps using the strawman!

But don't let me stop you from making an utter fool of yourself over and over and over and over and over.

hi ppl, im kinda new here,
And with that, may I suggest that you use English. Please. It would help.

No, there are not. They speak of the davidic savior, who is a great military and political leader who will reunite the diaspora, usher in the age of peace and knowledge, and rebuild the temple.

Jesus didn't do ANY of those.
that's because those prophecies were not about Jesus.

and those were not the only ones in the Bible. but you knew that already right?

No, I'm not. You can quote what you think is a claim, but it's actually just part of reality. Knowledge implies that you have some means to demonstrate it. That's what knowledge means.

No, it doesn't. You made that up. I showed you something I KNOW and can't demonstrate. You ignored it. See you made a claim. I gave you a positive and repeatable example of something counter to that claim. That makes it falsified.

Here's another example -
I'm thinking of a number. I tell you what that number is. I know a couple of things I cannot prove. I know what number I was thinking of. I know whether it was the same as the number that I told you. I can't evidence either one of those things I know without doubt.

Oh well-looks like you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

And you seem to be operating under your strawman view of what I've been saying. Here's a torch so you can set fire to it and stop using it.
Oh, hey, your toilet paper ran out of fallacies so you have to start repeating.

Amusing. So are you actually NOT claiming that anything that we know can be proven? You don't believe that to be true? Then why did you say it?



Let me teach you something about debate. It takes more than simply claiming that everything everyone who doesn't agree with you is false. If they give evidence and you don't. You lose. I evidenced your claims. I evidenced your claims were false. You simply declared everything I said to be false with no evidence. That's called losing a debate.

listen i am tired of this forum and it is giving me a headache so just no that god does exist and fuck all who doesn't believe

No, I'm not. You can quote what you think is a claim, but it's actually just part of reality. Knowledge implies that you have some means to demonstrate it. That's what knowledge means.

Oh well-looks like you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

And you seem to be operating under your strawman view of what I've been saying. Here's a torch so you can set fire to it and stop using it.sorry BK... you neither supplied proof of your claims as well as anything substantial. infact, you seem more content in attacking the poster and not what was posted.

oh and Genesis 3:15 is just one of the many Prophecies that Jesus Fullfills.

Fine. Won't make any difference because you're the utter idiot who keeps using the strawman!

But don't let me stop you from making an utter fool of yourself over and over and over and over and over.

Does your logical fallacy toilet paper teach about ad hominems?

sorry BK... you neither supplied proof of your claims as well as anything substantial. infact, you seem more content in attacking the poster and not what was posted.

oh and Genesis 3:15 is just one of the many Prophecies that Jesus Fullfills.

You noticed that too, huh? I've noticed that he's misused various logical fallacies at three posters while committing them. He drops arguments like they're burning his hands and he cannot stop calling people names. And apparently everyone who reacts to what HE ACTUALLY posted is using the strawman. Did I miss anything?

The amusing part is that the three posters he's attacking don't even agree on this subject, but I bet we can all see the utter lack of substance in his debate.

that's because those prophecies were not about Jesus.
Oh really? Then why do most xers quote them as prophecies about jesus?

If you feel they aren't, please feel free to talk to your fellow xers and disabuse them of their erroneous notions.

So kiddo--what are the supposed prophecies? We covered the virgin birth already. How about this one:

Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee; and leaving Nazareth he went and dwelt in Caper'na-um by the sea, in the territory of Zeb'ulun and Naph'tali, that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "The land of Zeb'ulun and the land of Naph'tali, toward the sea, across the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles-- the people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, and for those who sat in the region and shadow of death light has dawned." From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

The bolded part is supposed to be the prophecy. It's from Isaiah 9. Let's see what Isaiah 9 actually reads:

But there will be no gloom for her that was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zeb'ulun and the land of Naph'tali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations.The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.

The bolded parts are the ones that were left out. Quite dishonest of the AoMatthew.

listen i am tired of this forum and it is giving me a headache so just no that god does exist and fuck all who doesn't believe
Click .... signout ....
difficulty .... low ....

You have a headache? Try adjusting your monitor. Else the material might be too much for you to handle.
But save your "f*ck" condemnation for yourself for implying that our commitment to arguing about it ad nauseum is supposed to meet your approval. Who cares what you believe? You want us to? Give a rational argument. Else, take your own advice.

The amusing part is that the three posters he's attacking don't even agree on this subject, but I bet we can all see the utter lack of substance in his debate.

Oh it gets better. I've seen the utter lack of substance in his debate many, many times before. I recommend that you not waste your time debating him. I know I won't be.

sorry BK... you neither supplied proof of your claims
I made no claim.


oh and Genesis 3:15 is just one of the many Prophecies that Jesus Fullfills.
Oh, and there is no prophecy in Gen 3:15.

You noticed that two, huh? I've noticed that he's misused various logical fallacies at three posters while committing them.
What a nice lie.

The amusing part is that you don't even know that you've lied.

Poor you.

Oh it gets better. I've seen the utter lack of substance in his debate many, many times before. I recommend that you not waste your time debating him. I know I won't be.
Awwwwww. Poor widdle baby. Want a bottle?

And with that, may I suggest that you use English. Please. It would help.

ok... and that means???... i didnt atk u, well... yes i did, cause ur an stupid, brainless one, u start atking others, and u think they atk u, friking paranoid, ok, i really dont know wat u mean, that i used it wrong??, well if that is, sry; but if u started atking cause it could sound like im entering the post in a nice way 2 soft ur wood mind, pls trow urself in a pool and dont let u go out the water, u ll make us a favor.
know wat, im tired, wana sleep, but pls men, relax(ill 2), this is a pacific forum, when u talk about religion b careful 2 not ofend others, cause the religion is a way of life and u r ofending the life and not only one life.

Does your logical fallacy toilet paper teach about ad hominems?
Does yours teach you the difference between an insult and the ad hominem fallacy? Looks like it doesn't.

You. Lose.

ok... and that means,
It means you should use words--in English.

Just trying to help you. Nothing more. Not insulting you. Just trying to help. You want to be understood, right? So please use English. Thank you.

What a nice lie.

The amusing part is that you don't even know that you've lied.

Poor you.

I can't lie without knowing. Yet another word you misused. If I didn't know it, I would simply be wrong. A lie implies intent.

Meanwhile, the 'lie' you're talking about I proved. Several times over. You haven't yet stopped using the argument from ignorance strategy and you accused me of dial-a-fallacy for discussing the fallacies you were brought up. The only fallacy I'd accused you of at the time was argument from ignorance. Just another fallacy you didn't use properly.

hi ppl, im kinda new here, but no in the subject of faith and the mind, iv been all my mental life (since i have the abiliti of reason) thinking about all stuff of god, religion, the human, etc, and i made some conclutions: welcome to NS Forums. beware of the Trolls.

-i believe in a dual god, neither good or evil, cause, how u define this 2 terms;
good: something that makes a person feel fine, but that doenst mean anything(the drugs make u feel fine, but they damage ur body, soo at the end they rnt good), so lets make another definition, good is wat makes the life continues and alows another human 2 life as much as he can and as fine as he can(but seeing good from that way, then, diyng is a good thing, cause when somone dies he lets someone else lives, the problem is the feling of the sorrounding ppl of the dead one, but when an organism die another one can live from it, so it lets another ppl live, but in their mind they die a bit);Sorry, rather confusing since it seems you're thinking this up while typing. you define Good as what allows life to continue, and for example you use death which allows others to live. that's like saying doctors are evil since they delay death and killers and murders are good because they allow others to live.

and bad or evil is..., wat makes other ppl suffer, but... when somone die other ppl sufer, but that makes oportunities for others, makes space for other animals (including ppl), so thats no bad at all, and seeing boths terms from different points of view u can get different definitions, but at the end, u allways finish comparing whit the other term; so good is wats not bad, and bad is wats not good.(all of this is not soo workd cause this is a casual rasoning, this wasnt prepared, even trough that i had a life or thinking, the ideas r there, but im not going 2 write them all, plus i dont know that much of english xP).no problem, figured English wasn't your first language. but what I understand of your post so far, Good and Evil are one and the same.

knowing both conceps u cant separate them, somthing is good and bad, therefore, god is both, the holy and the devil, he is above us, and beneath us, he is in us and surrounding us; i believe there is a god, but i dont believe he is in a continuos fight for us whit the debil, i think he is an all, and being it, we r him, we r not make at his image, we r is image, he is us, at the same time that we r him, being all that way, when we die, we dont disapear, cause remember that we r him, so wat we see that banish, realy didnt banish, maib it just move, or transform; when someone die he may b the part of a newborn, soo, why should we get sad when someone let another human live, why we have 2 b so sellfish, mayb, the live of ur friend ended when she married, mayb ended when she was treated like garbage by somone, mayb his life ended in other moment, and it wanst the same, u cant know wat was on her mind, u can only know about was she showed, once i read a phrase, it was in spanish so ill try 2 translate is the best i can: we wont b known for our silent thought.
i cant assure u that she was unhappy, cant assure u that she was death before u know, i cant assure u nothing, but think that if she died it was cause of somthing, remember that the path of the life dont end whit the death, the death is justthe end of an object, and whitout that object wat u think that can limit u; but... this last reasoning only can mather if u believe in the soul, i believe, cause if we dont have soul, wats the difference bwn us and a puppet or a doll, or a genetic created animal (including human). i believe in that and i hope iv been usefull, correct m if im wrong, cause whit my english i think i could made a mistake expresing my self.

*:i wont argue if god exist or not, mayb later, im a lil tired, but stop whit the shit of fallency, ok, fine u cant prove it, that doenst mean is not true, but, stop pointing the error of the other, just have an open mind, u cant say god donst exist cause u cant prove it, but u can say he axist and u can make a mistake, who knows, but... think which one is the best answer thinking about the population, think about the godles pandemonium is whe dont believe in such god, at least if god is just an idea, lets make that idea prebails, lets make that idea so strong that it makes real, lets create for ourselfs the heaven, having a life 2 remember after death.I think I understand what you're saying. you are saying that in the end, God is what we make of him and that those Ideals that we put into this "God" image is something we, as man, should strive to make real. (in other words, Try to live a life pleasing to God.)

"it's not what we believe that counts but what we do with our lives in accordance to our faith and beliefs that matter."

Is that what you are saying?

Does yours teach you the difference between an insult and the ad hominem fallacy? Looks like it doesn't.

You. Lose.

An ad hominem fallacy is when you dismiss argument by attacking the person making them, like calling them an idiot while not addressing their argument at all. Need I quote you?

No, it doesn't. You made that up.
No, I did not. You also gave me exactly nothing.

Now please kill your strawman. It makes me laugh to think that you actually believe your strawman is valid.

Let me teach you something about debate: fallacies kill arguments. And you've used one fallacy after another. So go back, learn what not to do, and get back to me.

well askin if there is a god is like askin if there are aliens, its most likeley possible but also verry unlikeley.
i belive in god and have a lot of faith in him.
but if you are gona ask me "why does god let ppl die?"
if he didnt then the world would overpopulate, and we will eventually wana die. also he has the hardest job that can ever exist, he has to make everything happen, for example he has to make shure the planets stay on corse and dont smack into eachother and he also has to keep the universe in wack because if there is a god or if there isnt doesnt really matter, but it does matter on what we believe in because our beliefs are what influence us to do the right or rong thing.
and if there is ever a war agains the devil and god again than i will lagh from either heven or **** and yell "told yah so"
and even the some of the ppl who dont belive in god still make their desisions
based on the religeon the best understand and what they hear about god.
and if you dont believe in god i bet you found yourself sayin "there is no god" at least once in your life, but thats like sayin that there is not any aliens, it doesnt really matter.:sniper:

It means you should use words--in English.

Just trying to help you. Nothing more. Not insulting you. Just trying to help. You want to be understood, right? So please use English. Thank you.

xD, sry im a lil tired, if i ofended u more then nesesary pls sry xP.

ok... and that means???... i didnt atk u, well... yes i did, cause ur an stupid, brainless one, u start atking others, and u think they atk u, friking paranoid, ok, i really dont know wat u mean, that i used it wrong??, well if that is, sry; but if u started atking cause it could sound like im entering the post in a nice way 2 soft ur wood mind, pls trow urself in a pool and dont let u go out the water, u ll make us a favor.
know wat, im tired, wana sleep, but pls men, relax(ill 2), this is a pacific forum, when u talk about religion b careful 2 not ofend others, cause the religion is a way of life and u r ofending the life and not only one life.
I suggest you ignore BAAWAKnights. it will only lead to flaming and mod action.

Oh it gets better. I've seen the utter lack of substance in his debate many, many times before. I recommend that you not waste your time debating him. I know I won't be.

I'm familiar with BAAWA. I like it though. I've never seen anyone have more trouble with vocabulary. He even accused me of lying without knowing it. Most people would realize that's called being wrong, but, hey, why bother using things properly.

An ad hominem fallacy is when you dismiss argument by attacking the person making them,
Not quite. But since I attacked your argument, you certainly can't claim that I only attacked you.

Unless, of course, you want to lie. Do you want to lie to all the people whom I can show that you're lying?

If you want to quote me--fine. But you'll only be screwing yourself over by doing it.

I can't lie without knowing.
Yeah, you can. Another term you don't understand.

Meanwhile, you're lying about proving your claim. You keep insisting on something that I didn't say, and you want me to have said it. I didn't. But you lie and say that I did. Which is hilarious.

You noticed that too, huh? I've noticed that he's misused various logical fallacies at three posters while committing them. He drops arguments like they're burning his hands and he cannot stop calling people names. And apparently everyone who reacts to what HE ACTUALLY posted is using the strawman. Did I miss anything?

The amusing part is that the three posters he's attacking don't even agree on this subject, but I bet we can all see the utter lack of substance in his debate.
I'm just waiting for the rest to show up. this might be a first. both sides joining together to beat what appears to be a Troll.

Unity at last! :D

I suggest you ignore BAAWAKnights. it will only lead to flaming and mod action.
Awwwwww. Poor widdle baby. Can't handle a little debate? Have to run away?

welcome to NS Forums. beware of the Trolls.

Sorry, rather confusing since it seems you're thinking this up while typing. you define Good as what allows life to continue, and for example you use death which allows others to live. that's like saying doctors are evil since they delay death and killers and murders are good because they allow others to live.

no problem, figured English wasn't your first language. but what I understand of your post so far, Good and Evil are one and the same.
I think I understand what you're saying. you are saying that in the end, God is what we make of him and that those Ideals that we put into this "God" image is something we, as man, should strive to make real. (in other words, Try to live a life pleasing to God.)

"it's not what we believe that counts but what we do with our lives in accordance to our faith and beliefs that matter."

Is that what you are saying?


thanks for understanding me, xD, yeah im not pro-docs, i think they kill the planet bit by bit, but thats somthing of my lil head xD, and yeah for m the good and the evil r the same, and one is as nesesary as the other.

and thnks for the welcome xD.

I'm familiar with BAAWA. I like it though. I've never seen anyone have more trouble with vocabulary. He even accused me of lying without knowing it. Most people would realize that's called being wrong, but, hey, why bother using things properly.
Yeah--why bother attacking what a person said when you can attack what you want a person to have said. Just like you're doing to me. Wheeee!

xD, sry im a lil tired, if i ofended u more then nesesary pls sry xP.
You didn't offend me. I would just like it if you could be bothered to spell words correctly and use vowels. I would really appreciate it if you could do that. Thank you.

I'm familiar with BAAWA. I like it though.

You like it? I found it boring very quickly. But then I get bored easily, so it's hardly unexpected.

*shrug*

Have fun.

You didn't offend me. I would just like it if you could be bothered to spell words correctly and use vowels. I would really appreciate it if you could do that. Thank you.

sorry, but i was writing fast and making the concept in my mind, so i used some abbrebiations. well, i think i'll go for now, take care, bye for all.

Oh, and there is no prophecy in Gen 3:15.

To jump in here. It is not a prophecy in that to my knowledge, no NT writer mentions it, and by itself, it doens't necessarily mean anything. But consider this...John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
Why was he a murderer from the beginning? To kill the seed before it could kill him. Here is the evidence.
1.Cain kills Abel. Mission accomplished right? Along comes Seth.
2. Esau tries to kill Jacob. Fail and reconsiled.
3. uh oh. Now there are millions of "seeds" in Egypt. Pharoah orders all males babies to be killed. This is foiled.
4. In the book of Ester, Haman gets the kings permission to slaughter the Jews. Plot foiled by Mordecai and Ester, Haman gets hanged on his own gallows.
5. Bethlehem. Jesus is born. Herod orders the slaughter of the innocents 2 yrs and younger. They escape to of all places, Egypt.
6. Jesus dies on the cross. Satan is probobly drunk with glee. Then Jesus rises. sucks to be Satan.
So, the "seed" was constantly under attack throughouot human history. This prophecy becomes understandable in context and comes about.

I'm familiar with BAAWA. I like it though. I've never seen anyone have more trouble with vocabulary. He even accused me of lying without knowing it. Most people would realize that's called being wrong, but, hey, why bother using things properly.
Yeah--why bother attacking what a person said when you can attack what you want a person to have said. Just like you're doing to me. Wheeee!

Ha. You didn't say that. Let's see if I'm talking about something you didn't say.

The amusing part is that you don't even know that you've lied.

Whoops. Sucks to get caught, yet again. This is fun. Keep doing this. I'm sure everyone is very impressed with your 'nuh-uh' armor.

And let's post the definition of lie.
Lie - To present false information with the intention of deceiving.

Hmmm.. looks like intent is required. That means if one is lying they must know it. Golly, that only makes, well, every argument you've ever used to dismiss one of my posts include a misused term. Yay. I can't wait for the next post.

No, I did not. You also gave me exactly nothing.

Now please kill your strawman. It makes me laugh to think that you actually believe your strawman is valid.

Let me teach you something about debate: fallacies kill arguments. And you've used one fallacy after another. So go back, learn what not to do, and get back to me.

Look, ma, dropped arguments. Hey, don't both debating. Just keep making things up. It's fun. I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

Fine. Won't make any difference because you're the utter idiot who keeps using the strawman!

But don't let me stop you from making an utter fool of yourself over and over and over and over and over.

Yep, that's definitely addressing an argument. See, it's not enough to mention a logical fallacy in the post. You were talking about the poster, me, and equating that poster with "the utter idiot who keeps using strawman". It still doesn't address the argument. It doesn't show how it resembles the logical fallacy you claimed. It doesn't address the argument in any way. But, hey, I don't really expect otherwise. I hope you never change. I was bored just a few minutes ago.

*runs through thread naked screaming*

GOD IS DEAD, I say! DEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*runs through thread naked screaming*

GOD IS DEAD, I say! DEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BV? :confused:

Oh really? Then why do most xers quote them as prophecies about jesus?

If you feel they aren't, please feel free to talk to your fellow xers and disabuse them of their erroneous notions.

So kiddo--what are the supposed prophecies? We covered the virgin birth already. How about this one:



The bolded part is supposed to be the prophecy. It's from Isaiah 9. Let's see what Isaiah 9 actually reads:



The bolded parts are the ones that were left out. Quite dishonest of the AoMatthew.
Isaiah 9 1-2
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan- 2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

RED TEXT is the Prophesy.

Matthew 4:12-17
12When Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, he returned to Galilee. 13Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— 14to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
15"Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the way to the sea, along the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned."[e]
17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

RED TEXT here is prophecy Fullfilled.

when read side by side, Isaiah's prophecy is fullfilled in Mathew. when Jesus (the Light) went to Galilee to live in Capernaum he Honored the Gentiles in Galilee with his teachings.

*runs through thread naked screaming*

GOD IS DEAD, I say! DEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Sees THE LADY running by Naked.*

THANK YOU LORD! Once again you have proven that you fullfill prayers! :D

*Sees THE LADY running by Naked.*

THANK YOU LORD! Once again you have proven that you fullfill prayers! :D

Ahahahaha! :D

The Lord works in mysterious ways, it seems. ;)

To jump in here. It is not a prophecy in that to my knowledge, no NT writer mentions it, and by itself, it doens't necessarily mean anything. But consider this...John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.
He's talking about and to the jews who don't believe what he's saying.


Why was he a murderer from the beginning? To kill the seed before it could kill him.
You're really going to be stretching.


Here is the evidence.
1.Cain kills Abel. Mission accomplished right? Along comes Seth.
2. Esau tries to kill Jacob. Fail and reconsiled.
3. uh oh. Now there are millions of "seeds" in Egypt. Pharoah orders all males babies to be killed. This is foiled.
I'm still not seeing where you're getting this from.


4. In the book of Ester, Haman gets the kings permission to slaughter the Jews. Plot foiled by Mordecai and Ester, Haman gets hanged on his own gallows.
5. Bethlehem. Jesus is born. Herod orders the slaughter of the innocents 2 yrs and younger. They escape to of all places, Egypt.
Weeeeellll.....it never really happened.


6. Jesus dies on the cross. Satan is probobly drunk with glee. Then Jesus rises. sucks to be Satan.
So, the "seed" was constantly under attack throughouot human history. This prophecy becomes understandable in context and comes about.
I'm still really not seeing where you're getting this from.

*runs through thread naked screaming*

GOD IS DEAD, I say! DEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WooT!

*snaps mental image*
*converts to evil smilie*
*covets said smilie*
*temples fingers*
Excellent
*dissipates*

*Sees THE LADY running by Naked.*

THANK YOU LORD! Once again you have proven that you fullfill prayers! :D
Collateral damage. :D

...and, anecdote fodder.

Awwwwww. Poor widdle baby. Can't handle a little debate? Have to run away?
I can handle a Debate, go ahead and start one.

oh as for Genesis.

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike [B]his heel."


Note, YOUR OFFSPRING... singluar. pointing to one specific offspring.
he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel.
means that this offspring will defeat the serpent's plans and the serpent will be powerless to stop him. No matter how many times the corrupter tried to tempt Jesus away from his duty, Jesus defeated him and full filled God's plan. proving the Serpent to be powerless against Him.

Ahahahaha! :D

The Lord works in mysterious ways, it seems. ;)
*smiles quietly to self*
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/teu57.gif

*Sees THE LADY running by Naked.*

THANK YOU LORD! Once again you have proven that you fullfill prayers! :D
Oops...I didn't know you were here...

*flees*

Isaiah 9 1-2
1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan- 2 The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death [a]
a light has dawned.

RED TEXT is the Prophesy.
WRONG!

AoMatthew is trying to create a prophecy where none existed! There is no prophecy. It's out-of-context to the hilt. And for you to believe it is a prophecy would speak to your own dishonesty.

I might also add that I never NEVER want to read from you anything about any atheist taking something in the bible out of context. I do hope you never do that because if you do--you will be a hypocrite. You believe that ripping two verses apart and putting them together without all of the intervening text constitutes a valid prophecy. But it's just out-of-context nonsense.

I can handle a Debate, go ahead and start one.
Waiting for you.


oh as for Genesis.

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike [B]his heel."


Note, YOUR OFFSPRING... singluar. pointing to one specific offspring.
he will crush [b] your head, and you will strike his heel.
means that this offspring will defeat the serpent's plans and the serpent will be powerless to stop him.
And you're of the utterly idiotic and completely non-biblical opinion that the serpent is the devil? You do know that nowhere is the serpent actually said to be the devil, right?

And you do realize that the serpent was correct when it said that eating the fruit would allow Adam and Eve to know good from evil? One must wonder why god would prevent Adam and Eve from knowing good from evil.

Ha. You didn't say that.
Yes, I did.

Y'know, it really must suck to be you. I mean--you have to make up a lie as to what I said. Then, when you're caught in your lie, you keep repeating it over and over, as if somehow that will magically make it true.

Now then, any time you want to kill your infantile posturing--feel free to let me know. Thanks.

Look, ma, dropped arguments.
Yeah--that's precisely what you're doing. You're just dropping arguments and making things up. I wonder why you enjoy doing it.

Yep, that's definitely addressing an argument.
Yes, it is.

Never change--you amuse me with your infantile crap.

WRONG!

AoMatthew is trying to create a prophecy where none existed! There is no prophecy. It's out-of-context to the hilt. And for you to believe it is a prophecy would speak to your own dishonesty.

I might also add that I never NEVER want to read from you anything about any atheist taking something in the bible out of context. I do hope you never do that because if you do--you will be a hypocrite. You believe that ripping two verses apart and putting them together without all of the intervening text constitutes a valid prophecy. But it's just out-of-context nonsense.
considering that you haven't presented much. that's one way to avoid hearing that.

oh, and if you claim that Isaiah 9:1-2 were tampered with, why not post the original text including the source for it. let's see some evidence to back up your claims. you said it, now PROVE IT.

and you "ripped" two verses out and put them together while I compared them side by side.

still awaiting debate while you seem content dodging the issue and dancing alll over the place.