NationStates Jolt Archive

it is a bad thing. imagine litterally being eaten into poverty...

and should the air conditioner at the bank break down... all that cash... Down the Drain... :D

And you could only have one shape of coin, otherwise people could melt down the chocolate and make the type of coin that was more valuable per unit of volume... Ok, maybe that's going a bit far, but now let's return to the topic of the actual post...

please... I've seen many and Athiest, Agnostic as well as those of other religions also display losses of temper. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but the more vocal Christians (the ones everyone sees and takes as Christians) tend to lose their temper for no reason when someone tells them to stop imposing their beliefs on others...

As you know though we are all humans and we get angry some times.
Well if you read the thread(from pg333) i have doing my utmost to keep calm but yuo can't stand the insults for that long can you if you are not perfect.
that is why I also counciled you to back off when you find yourself getting angry/fustrated. Glad to see you are learning tho.

man this thread grew alot...

ESOM, the Bible is a religious text. Of course you won't find the answer to "How do I find my lost carkeys?" in it.:p
actually, it does.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: :D

actually, it does.
:D

I choked. That was very creative.

Can you please tell me what religion you believe in because the way you talk you pretty much sound lik a Christian.Yes, but Christian is not neccesarily = Catholic.
Corneliu belong to another of the branches on the Christian tree.
as am I Maypole. do not assume that all who worship God are Catholics... or even Christian.

Well besides you evryone has offended my name, ty

N.B. this is the 40th page since i posted my first post on this argumnet, look how far it has strectched, never intended to do a whole day here.
and that's NS for you. :D

and that's NS for you. :D

So true.

Yes but, I wanted this thread to be about if people really have faith in God. :(
yes they do.

and forgive me, but I may have Missed that question. if you are accepting Christianiy, then I am happy for you. If you were questioning your faith, I can only say that these Forums are not the best method for finding your answers.

So true.
so you met the new guy... glad to see some people being merciful till he gets some experience here.

(And I finally caught up with this thread.)

on and Grave. While I make no assumptions on what caused you to turn away, I will maintain that the choice was yours as is the choice to return. whether or not you see that choice (to regain your faith) is up to you. Peace.

and Grave. While I make no assumptions on what caused you to turn away, I will maintain that the choice was yours as is the choice to return. whether or not you see that choice (to regain your faith) is up to you. Peace.

Well, I've had some sleep, now... I get kind of... bizarre... when I'm sleep deprived.

I've been looking at your posts (since I logged off last night) since I logged IN again, and you've made some excellent points... and I've found myself agreeing with, or at least SIDING with, you on a number of occassions.

Good work, and thank you.

I don't think it a choice. I certainly wouldn't have chosen to abandon all the various feelings of comfort that a religion provides... and I wouldn't have eagerly embraced the animosity, and even distrust, that Atheism brings in some circles.

It was a process, and one that I was involved in... but not one that I ever decided to be involved in.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. There is no way I can accept your description of my 'fall from grace', and you don't seem capable of embracing my perspective. We shall, I guess, leave it at that.

Shalom, my friend. Peace be unto you.

I choked. That was very creative.
see proof that the bible has answers for everyday problems :D

No, but I regret the poll. I tottaly fucked this thread up with the poll.

The poll is the best bit! I think about half the people are wrong though.

Why is it the very first thing we do, blame GOD. We blame God for everything. The fact is that in a lot of ways we are responsible for our own actions. And yes because of others people do get hurt, die and everything else. I have a brother on death row, I COULD BLAME GOD, but God did not make the decisions that my brother make. He (GOD) lets us make our oun decisions, but He is still their to offer His wisdom and guidence, we have to ask Him. A lot of good people die all the time, and I completely understand what you are saying, however life is not fair. People get cancer from the materials we incounter, the toxic air, water :from all kinds of other sources. The Word of God says that God's thoughts are higher than out thoughts, His ways are higher than our ways, He has his reasons, have faith in Him. Ask God to show Him self to you, I know that He will not let you down, nor will He ever leave you. Have a blessed day, blessed week and a wonderful life.

I don't think it a choice. I certainly wouldn't have chosen to abandon all the various feelings of comfort that a religion provides... and I wouldn't have eagerly embraced the animosity, and even distrust, that Atheism brings in some circles.

If I found nothing else you said on this thread true (and believe me, that is far from the truth), this would be what I would take from the thread.

I didn't make a choice not to believe in God, god, gods, or whathaveyou. I actually made the attempt to believe...when my dog died, again when my friend died, and a final time right before Zooke died. And what I found ringing more true than anything else is that, while it sort of gave me comfort to believe that God had a plan, and that they were in a magical better place, it was a hollow joy. There was no faith there...it was like me telling myself "it will be okay". The words sound pretty, but they ultimatly fell unbacked and hollow. I had no faith to back it, and therefore, got nothing out of it.

And believe me, at any one of those points, I would have loved to be able to sit there and say "it is okay". I don't take to not having control very well, and it would be nice to think that something else did have control, even when I don't. But I've found it to be much more true that I do have control, I just need to figure out how I do. And that control has never required me to place faith in anything.

To sum up all of that senseless rambling, most people don't just "choose" to have faith or not. It just...is.

and this is how I speak when I'm overtired and just got back from the gym:)

I don't know why honestly people try to find so many wedges in Christianity to prove its wrong. Don't think arguing makes me have fun. I become sad when I see statements like "if their is a God i will just the same tell him to go to hell and leave me out of his stuf." Sad reflection on society don't you think?


I think its far, far sadder that so many people are willing to blindly follow ancient words in a text written by humans, and never question the words, or the reasons why they do so.

I think its horrible that people choose to be ignorant, and wallow in whatever messages the Church gives them, and yet, refuse to look at the churches own hippocracy.

I think its so, so sad that being a true christian ultimately means you have to give up critcal thinking skills, and believe fairy tales as evidence to one of lifes most important questions.

I think its even sadder that a religion that had such a good message was overshadowed by its own dogma, and concentrated on a ressurection that never happened, instead of the messages and wisdom taught by the very man all christians claim to love and accept.
In other words, they claim to love Christ SO MUCH, and yet, barely follow anything he said.

Thats sad.

I think its far, far sadder that so many people are willing to blindly follow ancient words in a text written by humans, and never question the words, or the reasons why they do so.

I think its horrible that people choose to be ignorant, and wallow in whatever messages the Church gives them, and yet, refuse to look at the churches own hippocracy.

I think its so, so sad that being a true christian ultimately means you have to give up critcal thinking skills, and believe fairy tales as evidence to one of lifes most important questions.

I think its even sadder that a religion that had such a good message was overshadowed by its own dogma, and concentrated on a ressurection that never happened, instead of the messages and wisdom taught by the very man all christians claim to love and accept.
In other words, they claim to love Christ SO MUCH, and yet, barely follow anything he said.

Thats sad.
...



...


will you have my babies?

Come on, there is absolutely a wonderful God who loves us very much, and he promises us enternal happiness if we believe in him. So why don't you guys believe in him? Would you rather burn in hell for eternity, or have a wonderful life in heavan?

Come on, there is absolutely a wonderful God who loves us very much, and he promises us enternal happiness if we believe in him. So why don't you guys believe in him? Would you rather burn in hell for eternity, or have a wonderful life in heavan?
Pascals wager falls flat every time.

I would rather live a good life today, than be concerned about what might happen once this life is over.

If there turns out to be a god, and he decides that, despite being a good person, I go to hell because I didn't believe in him, so be it. I would not want to be "saved" by that god, and would rather make s'mores with Lucifer, Nero, Cain and Judas.

For me, the secret of faith is not so secret. I can't prove to you there is a God. The Bible won't. Science won't. Evangelists won't.

True faith comes from a quiet place we can only hear when we create enough silence to listen. It's like so many of the good things in life, there are always easier, faster or worse solutions screaming so loud that the simple and clear solution is often obscured.

The Bible has a couple of simple messages that we can take with us, Christian and Atheist alike. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. Judge not. Love your neighbor. It's so simple, yet we have those that would trick us shouting so much else to us. Pat Robertson and his ilk. Those that tell us that because some are lost and blame it on faith that religion is evil.

So I can't tell anyone the answer to finding faith, but I can tell people how to look. It seems like an appeal to emotion, but it's really beyond that. Find a quiet place both in the world and within yourself and think about what you know of the world. Ignore all the ignorant things so many of the lost have sold you on who and what God is, and simply look within yourself for what's always there. Forget the threat of hell or the promise of heaven. Pharisees would sell us punishment and rewards. Forget pleasing God for that is simply another type of reward or another type of pride. Forget about looking to God for a gift of peace or stregth or courage. More rewards. Those things will come but if you look for rewards on earth that's exactly what you'll get. And only what you'll get.

And, in the quiet moments, you'll hear it. And at first it will seem like you're just telling yourself what you want to hear. And in truth, you'll never KNOW that it isn't. But if you have faith, it will all suddenly seem so clear. You'll feel all the peace and all the desire to scream your discovery from the rooftops. You'll feel that feeling of the warm spring sun on your arms and the feeling of a cool breeze on a blazing summer's day. It tingles and it calms. It lifts and it drives.

It seems convenient and it seems like a crutch but only for those who refuse to stand on their own as God would have us do. I don't blame God and I don't thank him like a Pharisee. I simply recognize that all the strength and all the courage I'll ever need to live my life with all vigor was given to me before I was ever born even if it took me most of my life to find it. I don't have to ask for it, becuase it's mine.

I get confused. I get angry. I get malicious. I've lost myself at times. But the return to who I am and who God wants me to be is always found in the quiet moments. The answers won't be found in my words or any other man's. The answers are in the quiet moments.

Come on, there is absolutely a wonderful God who loves us very much, and he promises us enternal happiness if we believe in him. So why don't you guys believe in him? Would you rather burn in hell for eternity, or have a wonderful life in heavan?

Interesting. I wonder if God would have us feign faith out of fear or out of hope for a reward. Dogs can be taught to respond to punishment and reward. I would like to believe God expects better of us.

...



...


will you have my babies?

If it were medically or physically possible.....sure!

I think its far, far sadder that so many people are willing to blindly follow ancient words in a text written by humans, and never question the words, or the reasons why they do so.

I think its horrible that people choose to be ignorant, and wallow in whatever messages the Church gives them, and yet, refuse to look at the churches own hippocracy.

I think its so, so sad that being a true christian ultimately means you have to give up critcal thinking skills, and believe fairy tales as evidence to one of lifes most important questions.

I think its even sadder that a religion that had such a good message was overshadowed by its own dogma, and concentrated on a ressurection that never happened, instead of the messages and wisdom taught by the very man all christians claim to love and accept.
In other words, they claim to love Christ SO MUCH, and yet, barely follow anything he said.

Thats sad.yes. it is sad that the loudest get all the attention. while those who do what they're supposed to are quietly ignored. :(

True faith comes from a quiet place we can only hear when we create enough silence to listen. It's like so many of the good things in life, there are always easier, faster or worse solutions screaming so loud that the simple and clear solution is often obscured.




This is why I cant believe.
If God existed, why would this issue even be in question?
Why would God be so incredibly subtle?

It seems to me that if God truly existed, we would all clearly know it, and THEN the choice would be made by us to follow or not.
But its not like that, is it?

Instead, we are given nothing to go on, and then forced to make the ulitimate choice wether or not to believe.

yes. it is sad that the loudest get all the attention. while those who do what they're supposed to are quietly ignored. :(

"I think it is true, it was people like you, who crucified Christ.
I think it is sad, the opinion you had, was the only one voiced."
-Black Sabbath.

This is why I cant believe.
If God existed, why would this issue even be in question?
Why would God be so incredibly subtle?

It seems to me that if God truly existed, we would all clearly know it, and THEN the choice would be made by us to follow or not.
But its not like that, is it?

Instead, we are given nothing to go on, and then forced to make the ulitimate choice wether or not to believe.

It depends. Again, ignore the idea of heaven and hell. All we're talking about are answers, no? If God wanted it to simply be matter of telling you, he would. God could breath all knowledge and all things into your head and you'd never have to explore anything. But what would be the fun in that. Is that what you want? Maybe the world is more of an adventure than just being given the answers. When you open a crossword puzzle do you just flip to the back of the book or would you rather work it out?

We're given lots to go on, it's just not shouted at us like all the nonsense so many would have you believe. Is looking within yourself and finding that quiet place too much to ask?

If you could, would you live in a place where nothing is required of you and nothing is ever learned? Where there is nothing to question and no questions at all? No challenges? No adventures? No losses, but also no victories? Would you? Really?

I sure am glad, it's not like that. For myself, that would not a paradise be.

This is why I cant believe.
If God existed, why would this issue even be in question?
Why would God be so incredibly subtle?

It seems to me that if God truly existed, we would all clearly know it, and THEN the choice would be made by us to follow or not.
But its not like that, is it?

Instead, we are given nothing to go on, and then forced to make the ulitimate choice wether or not to believe.
There is plenty to "go on," you just have to shop around for it and wade through all the sales and bargains, loud speaker announcements, greeters and barkers, and the advertisements being flashed in your face. That's a very difficult thing to do in our Western civilization.

What if god is not subtle at all? What if god is just drown out by all the noise that you've become so accustomed to hearing?

Have you stood in a church? or a mosque? or on the rim of the Grand Canyon? Just stood, and looked, and listened to the quiet? God isn't in there to see, but until you block out the noise and submit yourself to something that at least somebody considers to be sacred, what do you expect? What if you found out that you already did know that god existed? What would you do then?

PS: as a non-Christian I will tell you point blank that there is no "ultimate choice" you have to make. You will not persecuted either by divinity or yourself for not believing or understanding.

I think its far, far sadder that so many people are willing to blindly follow ancient words in a text written by humans, and never question the words, or the reasons why they do so.

I think its horrible that people choose to be ignorant, and wallow in whatever messages the Church gives them, and yet, refuse to look at the churches own hippocracy.

I think its so, so sad that being a true christian ultimately means you have to give up critcal thinking skills, and believe fairy tales as evidence to one of lifes most important questions.

I think its even sadder that a religion that had such a good message was overshadowed by its own dogma, and concentrated on a ressurection that never happened, instead of the messages and wisdom taught by the very man all christians claim to love and accept.
In other words, they claim to love Christ SO MUCH, and yet, barely follow anything he said.

Thats sad.

I don't think you have to give up critical thinking skills at all. I'm a Christian and I criticall examine what I see in the Bible and when I find a criticism that someone makes, I research it and examine it. If you blindly follow the Bible as a Christian you are making a mistake. The Bible itself says that.

1 Thesseolonians 5:21 "Critically examine everything"

I think the Chruch is sometimes hypocritical, hence one of the reasons why I'm not a catholic. And I dont think much of the work the Chruch does is hypocritcal at all. Yes you all focus on the stuff about the contreceptives and the spread of AIDS which yes is terrible (one of the further reasons I'm not a Catholic) but you forget about the massive ammount of charity work the various chuches do. I know my church organises several relief missions to various parts of Europe, Africa and South America

You cannot say with definitive truth that the resurection didn't happen. Equally I can't say that it did, but dont say it didnt when you don't know. And I don't think that Christians in general place more importance on the events in the Bible than they do on their day to day lives and living them as Christ would want us to.

I'm not saying the Church is perfect, but I think its far far better than the picture you paint.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it interesting that when people talk about human rights and privilages, they want the Government, parents and other people to treat them like intelligent adults.
"Old enough to make their own decisions,"
"Old enough not to be hand fed things."
"Old enough to make their own mistakes"
"Old enough to figure things out for themselves"
"Old enough to not have someone guide them every step of the way."
basically not to be treated like a child.

but when it comes to God, they argue that they want God to treat them like babies.
"God should provide everything"
"God should stop all the evil in the world."
"God should prove himself (I Double Dog dare you)"
"God should force himself upon everyone."
"God should speak to us as if we were children"

Am I the only one noticing this?

This is why I cant believe.
If God existed, why would this issue even be in question?
Why would God be so incredibly subtle?

It seems to me that if God truly existed, we would all clearly know it, and THEN the choice would be made by us to follow or not.
But its not like that, is it?

Instead, we are given nothing to go on, and then forced to make the ulitimate choice wether or not to believe.

Three points

Firstly, we arnt given nothing to go on. There is plenty of evidence that there is out there that shows us who God is and what he is. There is the Bible and there is the creation around us and the hundruds of experiances of God that people have around the world. Arguably it is not completely conclusive proof, but it is there. It is up to you to accept it or not

Secondly, if there was conclusive proof then it would mean that everyone would accept God not out of love, but because they felt they had to. God wants us to love him, not come to him because they feal they have to or out of fear of hell. God needs us to choose to come to him out of love for him

Thirdly, exactly what form would this proof your looking for take. So many people have said to me that they want proof of God, but what form exactly would this proof take? Because we've had lots of forms. We've even had God himself come to us. I'm not sure what it is people really want.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it interesting that when people talk about human rights and privilages, they want the Government, parents and other people to treat them like intelligent adults.
"Old enough to make their own decisions,"
"Old enough not to be hand fed things."
"Old enough to make their own mistakes"
"Old enough to figure things out for themselves"
"Old enough to not have someone guide them every step of the way."
basically not to be treated like a child.

but when it comes to God, they argue that they want God to treat them like babies.
"God should provide everything"
"God should stop all the evil in the world."
"God should prove himself (I Double Dog dare you)"
"God should force himself upon everyone."
"God should speak to us as if we were children"

Am I the only one noticing this?

Very good point! Well explained there! Here Here!

of course, to be fair, those that follow religions are also guilty of such thinking. (including all religions as well as all extremists for such religions.)

"Don't tell us how to worship"
"I can exercise my right under Freedom of Religion"
"Don't Critizise me"
"Government shouldn't interferre with Religion"
"we are open and caring towards all.

"This is how you are suppose to live"
"Only though worship can you be saved"
"DIE INFIDEL/HERETIC!"
"Keep UNDER GOD in the Pledge"
"keep those Gays away from me and my family!"

For me, the secret of faith is not so secret. I can't prove to you there is a God. The Bible won't. Science won't. Evangelists won't.

True faith comes from a quiet place we can only hear when we create enough silence to listen. It's like so many of the good things in life, there are always easier, faster or worse solutions screaming so loud that the simple and clear solution is often obscured.

The Bible has a couple of simple messages that we can take with us, Christian and Atheist alike. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. Judge not. Love your neighbor. It's so simple, yet we have those that would trick us shouting so much else to us. Pat Robertson and his ilk. Those that tell us that because some are lost and blame it on faith that religion is evil.

So I can't tell anyone the answer to finding faith, but I can tell people how to look. It seems like an appeal to emotion, but it's really beyond that. Find a quiet place both in the world and within yourself and think about what you know of the world. Ignore all the ignorant things so many of the lost have sold you on who and what God is, and simply look within yourself for what's always there. Forget the threat of hell or the promise of heaven. Pharisees would sell us punishment and rewards. Forget pleasing God for that is simply another type of reward or another type of pride. Forget about looking to God for a gift of peace or stregth or courage. More rewards. Those things will come but if you look for rewards on earth that's exactly what you'll get. And only what you'll get.

And, in the quiet moments, you'll hear it. And at first it will seem like you're just telling yourself what you want to hear. And in truth, you'll never KNOW that it isn't. But if you have faith, it will all suddenly seem so clear. You'll feel all the peace and all the desire to scream your discovery from the rooftops. You'll feel that feeling of the warm spring sun on your arms and the feeling of a cool breeze on a blazing summer's day. It tingles and it calms. It lifts and it drives.

It seems convenient and it seems like a crutch but only for those who refuse to stand on their own as God would have us do. I don't blame God and I don't thank him like a Pharisee. I simply recognize that all the strength and all the courage I'll ever need to live my life with all vigor was given to me before I was ever born even if it took me most of my life to find it. I don't have to ask for it, becuase it's mine.

I get confused. I get angry. I get malicious. I've lost myself at times. But the return to who I am and who God wants me to be is always found in the quiet moments. The answers won't be found in my words or any other man's. The answers are in the quiet moments.

I love the way it's presented... I love the thought, I love the idea. I wish it would work for me - but I've tried.

I've wanted to believe. I've been completely open to it. I've looked for any port of truth in a storm of uncertainties... but it just never has worked for me.

But - in general, this is an EXCELLENT post, my friend.

THIS is what I think 'true' Christianity looks like.

of course, to be fair, those that follow religions are also guilty of such thinking. (including all religions as well as all extremists for such religions.)

"Don't tell us how to worship"
"I can exercise my right under Freedom of Religion"
"Don't Critizise me"
"Government shouldn't interferre with Religion"
"we are open and caring towards all.

"This is how you are suppose to live"
"Only though worship can you be saved"
"DIE INFIDEL/HERETIC!"
"Keep UNDER GOD in the Pledge"
"keep those Gays away from me and my family!"

Indeed, I personally couldnt care less if the under God is in the pledge in the US because I'm British, but I doubt I would care if I was American. I oppose abortion, but that can easily be opposed on secular grounds, but thats another issue for another thread. I oppose gay marriage because I believe it undermines the significence of what marriage is itself, but thats just my opinion.

I love the way it's presented... I love the thought, I love the idea. I wish it would work for me - but I've tried.

I've wanted to believe. I've been completely open to it. I've looked for any port of truth in a storm of uncertainties... but it just never has worked for me.

But - in general, this is an EXCELLENT post, my friend.

THIS is what I think 'true' Christianity looks like.


I like this alot too. but its not about God or 'true' christianity. i'm taoist and it all rings true to me. If you tried and it didn't work, try again from a diffenent angle...its out there!!

For me, the secret of faith is not so secret. I can't prove to you there is a God. The Bible won't. Science won't. Evangelists won't.

True faith comes from a quiet place we can only hear when we create enough silence to listen. It's like so many of the good things in life, there are always easier, faster or worse solutions screaming so loud that the simple and clear solution is often obscured.

The Bible has a couple of simple messages that we can take with us, Christian and Atheist alike. Treat others as you'd like to be treated. Judge not. Love your neighbor. It's so simple, yet we have those that would trick us shouting so much else to us. Pat Robertson and his ilk. Those that tell us that because some are lost and blame it on faith that religion is evil.

So I can't tell anyone the answer to finding faith, but I can tell people how to look. It seems like an appeal to emotion, but it's really beyond that. Find a quiet place both in the world and within yourself and think about what you know of the world. Ignore all the ignorant things so many of the lost have sold you on who and what God is, and simply look within yourself for what's always there. Forget the threat of hell or the promise of heaven. Pharisees would sell us punishment and rewards. Forget pleasing God for that is simply another type of reward or another type of pride. Forget about looking to God for a gift of peace or stregth or courage. More rewards. Those things will come but if you look for rewards on earth that's exactly what you'll get. And only what you'll get.

And, in the quiet moments, you'll hear it. And at first it will seem like you're just telling yourself what you want to hear. And in truth, you'll never KNOW that it isn't. But if you have faith, it will all suddenly seem so clear. You'll feel all the peace and all the desire to scream your discovery from the rooftops. You'll feel that feeling of the warm spring sun on your arms and the feeling of a cool breeze on a blazing summer's day. It tingles and it calms. It lifts and it drives.

It seems convenient and it seems like a crutch but only for those who refuse to stand on their own as God would have us do. I don't blame God and I don't thank him like a Pharisee. I simply recognize that all the strength and all the courage I'll ever need to live my life with all vigor was given to me before I was ever born even if it took me most of my life to find it. I don't have to ask for it, becuase it's mine.

I get confused. I get angry. I get malicious. I've lost myself at times. But the return to who I am and who God wants me to be is always found in the quiet moments. The answers won't be found in my words or any other man's. The answers are in the quiet moments.
several things.
3) that was beautiful.
1) you are, in my opinion, the type of "Christian" people should be striving to be. (If you choose to make there be types of christians and all that...which I in general try not to...none the less.)
4)"The answers won't be found in my words or any other man's. The answers are in the quiet moments." That line is among my list of ultimate truths, except in different wording, and reaching a somewhat different conclusion. The quote I go by is "If not inside yourself, where will you find it?". From there, I go one way, you go another...but similar message, and again, beautifully stated.
1)that was one of the top posts I've seen on this forum
5)now where I say I've tried it. I've found my answers in silence, and the answers I've found aren't faith in God. The answers I've found are that contemplating a problem will get you a solution, and mourning a death will bring closure. I don't attribute these to a God, nor do I have the desire to do so anymore (atleast not at this point). I prefer to have my answers come from within, and be the person I think is best for me, regardless of if it would fit into someone elses plan for me, be that person mortal or deity. I was open to it before, and finding the answers within myself was what "fixed" it. Telling myself there was something more to it did nothing, if not made it worse

I like this alot too. but its not about God or 'true' christianity. i'm taoist and it all rings true to me. If you tried and it didn't work, try again from a diffenent angle...its out there!!

Thanks for the concern... but I didn't just open and close ONE 'door to truth'. I'd like to believe 'it's out there' - I haven't ruled it out... but I've seen no reason to 'rule it in', either.

As for the 'true' Christianity thing... I don't think it's exclusive. I think Christianity looks like 'this' when it is 'true'... but I think a lot of other things look like 'this', too.

4)"The answers won't be found in my words or any other man's. The answers are in the quiet moments." That line is among my list of ultimate truths, except in different wording, and reaching a somewhat different conclusion. The quote I go by is "If not inside yourself, where will you find it?". From there, I go one way, you go another...but similar message, and again, beautifully stated.

5)now where I say I've tried it. I've found my answers in silence, and the answers I've found aren't faith in God. The answers I've found are that contemplating a problem will get you a solution, and mourning a death will bring closure. I don't attribute these to a God, nor do I have the desire to do so anymore (atleast not at this point). I prefer to have my answers come from within, and be the person I think is best for me, regardless of if it would fit into someone elses plan for me, be that person mortal or deity. I was open to it before, and finding the answers within myself was what "fixed" it. Telling myself there was something more to it did nothing, if not made it worse

MORE wise words. They must be putting something in the water...

I'm a heathen, I believe in multiple gods, angels, higher spirits, or however you wanna call them. I prefer the religions of my ancestors above the newer stuff. (Talking about BC now =) )

SIDENOTE: can I kindly ask people to stick with the subject of religion, and not go talk about homosexuality/abortion/ethnics/other stuff in this thread? Make a thread about each of those things if you want to talk about it. I know I'm not the only one who wants to respond to those things as well, but I think it would create chaos, and thereby loads of anger we don't want. Thnx =)

MORE wise words. They must be putting something in the water...
acid?:p

acid?:p

I'm not sure that would necessarily spawn the general 'positive' slant of the last page or so... :)

I'm not sure that would necessarily spawn the general 'positive' slant of the last page or so... :)
haha...how sad...it only took what...386 pages to get one happy positive on topic page?

haha...how sad...it only took what...386 pages to get one happy positive on topic page?

That's not actually a bad statistic by NSG standards... ;)

I love the way it's presented... I love the thought, I love the idea. I wish it would work for me - but I've tried.

I've wanted to believe. I've been completely open to it. I've looked for any port of truth in a storm of uncertainties... but it just never has worked for me.

But - in general, this is an EXCELLENT post, my friend.

THIS is what I think 'true' Christianity looks like.

You can't look for faith. You can't choose it. You can't take it or steal or make it or destroy it. I'm not telling you what to look for but just to allow that peace to be found. What I find is continuous is that people all over the world, people who have different beliefs and different angles have found their faith in those moments. That's why I can say it and speak to the Taoist. Like I said, I can explain it away, but see no reason to. I find my answers there. I find my peace there. I find everything I need in life in those moments.

As to my personal belief, if you've found your answers and you don't call it God then that's God's plan for you, though I'll admit I can't see why. It's odd for me. It's like everytime I was making a mistake, not something unlucky or out of my control, but an actual mistake, I can feel that place screaming at me. And the only times I've ever really been hurt as a person have been when I shouted it down because I wanted it to be wrong.

It's such a beautiful place to be. I talk to my girlfriend about it sometimes, because she can't understand how I can be so peaceful about such difficult decisions. To someone who sees it, it's so clear what I mean. I still have taught her to allow that place to open up insider her, so I suspect I won't be able to it for you either. I'll keep you posted though.

And thanks for the compliments. I loved writing it. I have been away from it for a while and I needed to remind myself of where I should be. Thanks for driving me to express it. I hope it helps.

You can't look for faith. You can't choose it. You can't take it or steal or make it or destroy it. I'm not telling you what to look for but just to allow that peace to be found. What I find is continuous is that people all over the world, people who have different beliefs and different angles have found their faith in those moments. That's why I can say it and speak to the Taoist. Like I said, I can explain it away, but see no reason to. I find my answers there. I find my peace there. I find everything I need in life in those moments.

As to my personal belief, if you've found your answers and you don't call it God then that's God's plan for you, though I'll admit I can't see why. It's odd for me. It's like everytime I was making a mistake, not something unlucky or out of my control, but an actual mistake, I can feel that place screaming at me. And the only times I've ever really been hurt as a person have been when I shouted it down because I wanted it to be wrong.

It's such a beautiful place to be. I talk to my girlfriend about it sometimes, because she can't understand how I can be so peaceful about such difficult decisions. To someone who sees it, it's so clear what I mean. I still have taught her to allow that place to open up insider her, so I suspect I won't be able to it for you either. I'll keep you posted though.

And thanks for the compliments. I loved writing it. I have been away from it for a while and I needed to remind myself of where I should be. Thanks for driving me to express it. I hope it helps.

This isn't the first 'open letter' I've seen from you, and they are usually something special. Maybe this 'format' is 'your thing'? :)

Have I had the quiet moments? The reflection? The inspiration, maybe...? Sure - but I've not found 'god', there... nor anything that resembles 'god'... unless I define 'god' as my own private epiphanies, my own private meditations and realisations.

If THAT would be all 'god' was - then I've found it... but what I have found is an enemy of 'organised religion', an enemy of 'revealed religion', an enemy of the idea that 'truth' COULD be something that comes close to any of the Judeo-Christian scripts.

As you say - it would be a peculiar kind of 'revelation', if that were the actions of a Biblical 'god'...

But - if I AM wants me to feel his/her presence as a steel-trap of incisive thought, then I have no quarrel with that 'religion'.

This isn't the first 'open letter' I've seen from you, and they are usually something special. Maybe this 'format' is 'your thing'? :)

Have I had the quiet moments? The reflection? The inspiration, maybe...? Sure - but I've not found 'god', there... nor anything that resembles 'god'... unless I define 'god' as my own private epiphanies, my own private meditations and realisations.

If THAT would be all 'god' was - then I've found it... but what I have found is an enemy of 'organised religion', an enemy of 'revealed religion', an enemy of the idea that 'truth' COULD be something that comes close to any of the Judeo-Christian scripts.

As you say - it would be a peculiar kind of 'revelation', if that were the actions of a Biblical 'god'...

But - if I AM wants me to feel his/her presence as a steel-trap of incisive thought, then I have no quarrel with that 'religion'.

Don't you find more than simply realizations and epiphanies? Don't you often find things there you're not looking for? I can't tell you how to interpret it, but I can tell you that to question whether it seems like it comes from you or not.

As far as the Biblical God, I'll take the God that speaks to our hearts every time. The 'Biblical' God that is supported by various churches is simply evidence that these often politically powerful and always socially powerful entities seek to take away the power that God directly endowed you with and to make you subject to their direction. It's a dangerous line of thought and I reject with all vigor.

You and I know that what the Biblical God is today is different than yesterday and a century ago and a millenia ago, etc. I suspect it's not God that's changing. However, when what I find is so consistent with what I know of what Jesus was here to do (even if you consider him to be a legend) I suspect that the clash, the clamor, the arrogance and fear one can find in organized religion is because they've deviated from what God speaks to us.

If your'e asking if I think you'll find the 'Biblical' God as a God that resembles what so many in organized religion, my answer is "Gosh, I certainly hope not." God's plan for you is God's plan for you, but for the sake of human rights and peace, I hope that his plan intends for you to one who actually ascribes to the major teachings of the Savior, not those of the Church.

Interesting. I wonder if God would have us feign faith out of fear or out of hope for a reward. Dogs can be taught to respond to punishment and reward. I would like to believe God expects better of us.

I wouldn't want to feign faith. There's no joy in that.

I wouldn't want to feign faith. There's no joy in that.
And what's the joy in declaring that GnI is going to hell?

Don't you find more than simply realizations and epiphanies? Don't you often find things there you're not looking for? I can't tell you how to interpret it, but I can tell you that to question whether it seems like it comes from you or not.

As far as the Biblical God, I'll take the God that speaks to our hearts every time. The 'Biblical' God that is supported by various churches is simply evidence that these often politically powerful and always socially powerful entities seek to take away the power that God directly endowed you with and to make you subject to their direction. It's a dangerous line of thought and I reject with all vigor.

You and I know that what the Biblical God is today is different than yesterday and a century ago and a millenia ago, etc. I suspect it's not God that's changing. However, when what I find is so consistent with what I know of what Jesus was here to do (even if you consider him to be a legend) I suspect that the clash, the clamor, the arrogance and fear one can find in organized religion is because they've deviated from what God speaks to us.

If your'e asking if I think you'll find the 'Biblical' God as a God that resembles what so many in organized religion, my answer is "Gosh, I certainly hope not." God's plan for you is God's plan for you, but for the sake of human rights and peace, I hope that his plan intends for you to one who actually ascribes to the major teachings of the Savior, not those of the Church.

Ah, well... if all we are looking for is hearing your heart as well as your head, being as 'good' a person as we know how, and truly 'loving thy neighbour'... then I would already be THAT kind of Christian. Just... one that doesn't actually believe in any gods, and that can't find any way to receive a world of (conflicting) 'truths'.

I do agree that, man or myth, Jesus is an exemplar... the icon of a paradigm. It just so happens... I don't think it matters if he be myth or man... it is the message that matters. You can't stop the signal.

Ah, well... if all we are looking for is hearing your heart as well as your head, being as 'good' a person as we know how, and truly 'loving thy neighbour'... then I would already be THAT kind of Christian. Just... one that doesn't actually believe in any gods, and that can't find any way to receive a world of (conflicting) 'truths'.

I do agree that, man or myth, Jesus is an exemplar... the icon of a paradigm. It just so happens... I don't think it matters if he be myth or man... it is the message that matters. You can't stop the signal.

Well, I'd just say don't harden your heart and I think you'll be fine. I've got faith in you, GnI, even if sometimes when you're tired your head spins around 11 times.

I wouldn't want to feign faith. There's no joy in that.

But, if we CLAIM faith, based on an argument like "If you don't believe, you'll burn in hell"... then what we are displaying is FEAR, not faith.

Well, I'd just say don't harden your heart and I think you'll be fine. I've got faith in you, GnI, even if sometimes when you're tired your head spins around 11 times.

:D

At least 11 times, I think.

And, don't worry, my friend... my heart is not hardened. I lack belief, I don't believe lack.

If there is 'truth', perhaps I'll find it... or it will find me. And, if there isn't.. well, that works, too. :)

:D

At least 11 times, I think.

And, don't worry, my friend... my heart is not hardened. I lack belief, I don't believe lack.

If there is 'truth', perhaps I'll find it... or it will find me. And, if there isn't.. well, that works, too. :)
I think it'll come in it's time, my friend. But keeping that sleep. I like the well-rested GnI much better.

But, if we CLAIM faith, based on an argument like "If you don't believe, you'll burn in hell"... then what we are displaying is FEAR, not faith.

That is why we must fully accept Jesus but not out of fear.

That is why we must fully accept Jesus but not out of fear.

If consequences are at all a part of the reasoning then it is just that. If it's truly faith, it shouldn't matter if the implications were opposite. Would you accept faith in our Savior if it meant you had to go to Hell?

But the maggots will love you and sing your praise for providing some nice fertilizer! ;)
This is just precious. Warm, wiggly feeling inside, it brings! :)

I think it'll come in it's time, my friend. But keeping that sleep. I like the well-rested GnI much better.

:D

My life doesn't allow for much of this 'sleep' thing, of which you speak... :)

And, I don't know... evil, sleep-deprived GnI has his moments, too...

That is why we must fully accept Jesus but not out of fear.

Then why preach hellfire and damnation?

You might receive lip-service protestations, but you are never going to touch a heart through fear.

Like I said, I don't believe in your magical sky-god. Should, however, something happen on this mythical 'Judgement Day', I will happily tell God to go to Hell, and leave me be.
F*ck yeah. *bows*

:D

My life doesn't allow for much of this 'sleep' thing, of which you speak... :)

And, I don't know... evil, sleep-deprived GnI has his moments, too...
I have to vouch for this WHOLE post, methinks. *bows*

Im trying to decide if he is actually a troll.
If the fu sh*ts ... ;)

The way I see it is how it is laid out in Exodus. The Christian God is the only God; all others are idols. But then Jesus is the Messiah and He has to be accepted in order to reach Heaven.
You didn't read Exodus well enough, to say nothing of the rest of the book(s).
Boy, i hope this doesn't come back to bite you in the arse ... in so many ways ... one way being, for example, that this issue was already covered ON THIS THREAD BEFORE you got here.
:eek:

That is why we must fully accept Jesus but not out of fear.

There is always fear. if not fear of hell then fear of not knowing what is coming or why. why would so many people believe something so implausible if not believing it had no consequences?

You didn't read Exodus well enough, to say nothing of the rest of the book(s).
Boy, i hope this doesn't come back to bite you in the arse ... in so many ways ... one way being, for example, that this issue was already covered ON THIS THREAD BEFORE you got here.
:eek:

In all fairness... this thread had been bimbling along for several hundred pages long before some of the 'current crop' got involved... and the damned thing is out of control, sprouting new pages every time you look away...

I'm doing my best to keep up... I can totally understand others not wishing to dig back through the 'history'... :)

I have to vouch for this WHOLE post, methinks. *bows*

Well, I think you might have witnessed some moments of ESD GnI (Evil, Sleep-Deprived GnI)... but you've been spared being a victim OF it... I can't imagine it is always as much fun when the thing is pointed at you...:D

The Inquisition.
Good shot.
Ka-POW! :sniper:

Well, I think you might have witnessed some moments of ESD GnI (Evil, Sleep-Deprived GnI)... but you've been spared being a victim OF it... I can't imagine it is always as much fun when the thing is pointed at you...:D
I didn't feel myself at the other end - alas, i am also oft sleep-deprived from life and i suspect i got a glance of the ESD GnI, and i was both impressed and felicitious. :)
I think the best material can come out (on this topic) when low on sleep.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! :D
One might think this wouldn't come up but once every few threads ... ;)

http://www.billmon.org/archives/spanishinquisition.jpg


BTW, my apologies for the fractures in flow here - y'all have been busy, and i gotta catch up. Well i don't HAVE to, but i *should*.

If consequences are at all a part of the reasoning then it is just that. If it's truly faith, it shouldn't matter if the implications were opposite. Would you accept faith in our Savior if it meant you had to go to Hell?

Oooh! An intruiguing question...

Oooh! An intruiguing question...

And one, it seems, that shall go unanswered...

I believe I hear the 'cut-and-run' music playing, again...

Don't begin telling us your jokes. Ok don't believe in the God. But if you mock our church you will have terrible concequences in you afterlife.Nice army base ya got here, colonel ... be a shame if anything were to ... happen to it ...

Let me tell you a definition of hell:
God- You will be ashamed of God and resent that you will never meet him and talk with him.
Nature- You will feel all the natural suurondings around you hostile. You can never merge with it. This includes feelings of physical pain.
People- You will vent your anger at other people cursing and offending. You will have no friends, and feel lonely.
Yourself- You will feel angry at yourself, blaspheme and always frustrated why you dind't live a good chritsian life.

Heaven is the total oppsite of this, so you can just imagine.No imagination needed, just an awareness of the meaning of the words used.
Therefore:
God - Go will be ashamed of you and resent that you will meet him and talk with him. It's heard plenty of self-absorbed bullsh*t before, and you're no better. You basically waste its time and patience, even sympathies, with your self-absorption.
Nature - you will be hostile to your natural surroundings, under the fallacious assumption that you're actually superior to them. Instead, you inflict physical pain to them.
People - People will vent themselves at you cursing and offending. You will attempt to make friends, but realistically, they're just as shallow as you, so you feel right at home. And they'll surround you, so YOU'LL NEVER GET AWAY FROM THEM.
Yourself - you'll be so self-absorbed that you'll never notice everyone else being angry at you. You won't bother blaspheming since you can't think for yourself in a way that challenges your intellect or soul, you've already killed off those parts of your integrity for sake of a slavery wrapped in a delicate shell of false security. You'll be frustrated that everyone else that you remember didn't try hard enough to be as miserable as you.

So, that about covers it, eh? ;)

You know what ... this explains PRETTY WELL the idea of trying to force a "heaven on earth" and the mentality/results behind it. :eek:

Faith describes itself.
Faith defiles itself ...?


EDIT:no, sorry, i got it now ... faith basically fluffs its resume and hopes no one will call the supposed former employer.

Also, it says it's more facultative in the sexual persuasion but is a lousy lay when it finds someone with some real corporal charisma.

Oooh! An intruiguing question...

Oh, I have better questions. Like when a Christian is arguing for not allowing gay marriage - If God offered you the opportunity to absolve all homosexuals of sin and not just that, but make it so homosexuality is no longer a sin, but you'd have to go to hell, would you?

And one, it seems, that shall go unanswered...

I believe I hear the 'cut-and-run' music playing, again...

Have faith, my viking-esque friend.

Heaven is unimaginably good and Hell is unimaginably bad.
So how much time did you waste imagining every little nook & cranny of both anyway? Layering your perforated spirituality with the pervasive slime mold that is religious arrogance and fear mongering?
Further, how much imagination did it take to convince you that YOU could alter our imaginations about the whole sordid affair? Inflicting, as it were? Evil, as it were still?
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/teu11.gif

Everything relies on Faith.
Reality doesn't.
Instead, it relies on cause and effect, event and consequence.

Air is visible, it has a blue hue, hence the colour of the sky on a clear day. Wind is the movement of air, not a physical body but empirically provable regardless. Regarding the presence thing, Hell is a place without God, which is the accepted Christian definition, so that proves he is not omnipresent. If he is everywhere, why isn't he in Hell?
He is sometimes, making sure it's ready for the people who believe in it, and checking on his work, and seeing that it's good. No shoddy workmanship allowed in the revered halls.

There has to be a god otherwise there would be no life. Plus he keeps people being good and not sinning. If there wasnt a god everyone would be just killing each other and stealing from each other and being gay. It just wouldnt be a nice world to live in.

I think there are more than 20 pages since I wrote my first article in this thread. Should be more careful next time not to start a hot debate.:p
Oh, you kicked a few more steps out of what otherwise would have turned a pillar of salt ... ;)
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/aliens/hae18.gif

There has to be a god otherwise there would be no life. Plus he keeps people being good and not sinning. If there wasnt a god everyone would be just killing each other and stealing from each other and being gay. It just wouldnt be a nice world to live in.

Hey, troll. There's a bridge leaving in ten minutes. Be under it.

Plus he keeps people being good and not sinning. If there wasnt a god everyone would be just killing each other and stealing from each other and being gay.
:eek:
Oh, my lawd, you're SO RIGHT! What a precariousness it is, and you can see god's winning! Nobody's sinning and everyone's being good with constant intervention!
It's a constant battle to not just THROW MYSELF INTO coveting husbands and DVD players and pets and throw pillows and mail and lawnmowers and cable and ....

-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God is not Omnipresent.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean God doesn't exists.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you are right.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean the Bible is full of lies.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't mean you won't face judgment.
-Just because you are a damned atheist doesn't make you a more intelligent, modern person than I am.

And Finally hope you realise you're wrong and that God is Right.
Lotta if's there. :)

Have faith, my viking-esque friend.

Ah, you always were less of a cynic, and more willing to embrace 'faith' , than I...

Ask God, damn it! I am not the Pope!Well that clears a lot up for me. I was a little concerned there that you lied when you said "James" instead of "Joseph Alois". ;)
Besides, you should sig that.
You just keep asking more and more questions. Yeah, how dare you ask reasonable questions of someone who is supposedly defending the "honour" of the creator of the entire universe, creatures big and small, all things wise & wonderful!? How dare you!

no.

We have to use science to do that.

Science still hasnt found God.
Keeper! :D

So I've been eating for the past 80 pages... now I'm fat and a disgrace to mankind. I'd have never thought a single croissant could do this.

Anyways, have we proven that God doesn't exist yet?

I am not debating. I am stating facts irrelevant of what you state.
This is TOO PRECIOUS not to repost. And to save for later. :)

So I've been eating for the past 80 pages... now I'm fat and a disgrace to mankind. I'd have never thought a single croissant could do this.

Anyways, have we proven that God doesn't exist yet?

About as much as we've proven that God actually does exist. But keep working at it. It's a fun read, if nothing else. :D

So I've been eating for the past 80 pages... now I'm fat and a disgrace to mankind. I'd have never thought a single croissant could do this.

Anyways, have we proven that God doesn't exist yet?
I have the suspicion it'll go a lot like the Bush administration's wmd claims ... :rolleyes:

*"That God has"* got to be somewhere!" —George W. Bush, joking about his administration's failure to find *"God"* in *the NS Forums* as he narrated a comic slideshow during the Radio & TV Correspondents' Association dinner, Washington, D.C., March 24, 2004


"We know where *it is*. *It's* in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." –on "God"'s presence in an actual quantifiable location, May 2003

Because you forced it to display love you. Love requires an element of choice. If you want someone to love you, you can be very nice to them, do everything in your power to give them what they want and that can in some cases encourage them to love you back but the fact is it isnt certian. If we could force people to love us, the world would be a very different place. Perhaps you should instead prove that love can be forced.

Frankly, if anyone thinks they can force love, I would like to see how it works. You can enocourage love, give love yourself, but it is impossible to force it from someone else.

Good think Corneliu covered this earlier.

We have plenty of evidence that he existed.NO you don't, you've got two dudes who say things CONSIDERABLY LATER -Josephus and Tacitus, and due the nature of the material, someone WHO PREFERS TO ADMIT ANONYMOUS AND UNRELIABLE MATERIAL (like the others but even without a nom de plume) as the NAME OF A VARIABLE: Q (Quotient!!! :rolleyes: )


Well then you would understand that even if it was temporary it was a sacrifice
Nothing "temporary" is a true sacrifice to omnipotence. *shakes head*

That was just a methaphor. It is a lesson that we should trust always in God.
So ... the stuff he ACTUALLY does is "just a metaphor" ... whereas the things NO ONE ACTUALLY WITNESSES AS A GROUP is the "real thing"?
*shakes head*
He's all metaphor in function then, isn't he? Why wouldn't his faculty, wisdom, and existence be the same?

So ... the stuff he ACTUALLY does is "just a metaphor" ... whereas the things NO ONE ACTUALLY WITNESSES AS A GROUP is the "real thing"?
*shakes head*
He's all metaphor in function then, isn't he?

God is very poetic, apparently.

The Second Story, don't have the information on it now though.
Don't let that keep you from arguing about it ... oh wait, never mind. Keep up the good work. :rolleyes:

It requires more faith to believe that life and this world are an accident than it does to believe in God.

Also, I agree with Ashmora, terrible things do happen, and Jesus never promised that life would be peachy keen if you had faith in Him, but that He would help you through any struggle you were faced with, even if that struggle is physical pain or death.

There is death of a worse kind, the death of the spirit, which He can save you from.

And also, if there is no God and no "higher power" that dictates what is right and what is wrong - what is good and what is evil, then how could we claim to have some sort of argument against His or its existence by appealing to the evil in the world? Only by assuming that there is evil in the first place can such an argument be made, and that assumption requires some kind of higher power. The jump to God isn't very hard. And if you'd rather jump the other way, and accept that there is no such thing as right or wrong, well, consider what that would imply for your life and how you act. Are you willing to say that murdering babies is not wrong or evil?

Choose your God. Be it money, pleasure, sex, drugs, man, or any list of others - or Jesus. Only one will save you.

God is very poetic, apparently.
That would explain ecstatic pennings on bathroom stall walls!
Excre-meditation? ;)
Poetic like ... William S. Burroughs, or Bukowski, Jewel :p, or Plath, for example?

Did I ever tell you about the man
who taught his as*hole to talk?
His whole abdomen would move up and down,
you dig, farting out the words.
It was unlike anything I ever heard.
Bubbly, thick, stagnant sound.
A sound you could smell.
This man worked for the carnival, you dig?
And to start with it was
like a novelty ventriloquist act.
After a while,
the ass started talking on its own.
He would go in
without anything prepared...
and his ass would ad-lib
and toss the gags back at him every time.
Then it developed sort of teethlike...
little raspy incurving hooks
and started eating.
He thought this was cute at first
and built an act around it...
but the as*hole would eat its way through
his pants and start talking on the street...
shouting out it wanted equal rights.
It would get drunk, too, and have crying jags.
Nobody loved it.
And it wanted to be kissed,
same as any other mouth.
Finally, it talked all the time,
day and night.
You could hear him for blocks,
screaming at it to shut up...
beating at it with his fists...
and sticking candles up it, but...
nothing did any good,
and the as*hole said to him...
"It is you who will shut up
in the end, not me...
because we don't need you
around here anymore.
I can talk and eat and sh*t."
After that, he began waking up
in the morning with transparent jelly...
like a tadpole's tail
all over his mouth.
He would tear it off his mouth
and the pieces would stick to his hands...
like burning gasoline jelly
and grow there.
So, finally, his mouth sealed over...
and the whole head...
would have amputated spontaneously
except for the eyes, you dig?
That's the one thing
that the as*hole couldn't do was see.
It needed the eyes.
Nerve connections were blocked...
and infiltrated and atrophied.
So, the brain couldn't
give orders anymore.
It was trapped inside the skull...
sealed off.
For a while, you could see...
the silent, helpless suffering
of the brain behind the eyes.
And then finally
the brain must have died...
because the eyes went out...
and there was no more feeling in them
than a crab's eye at the end of a stalk.

...or more like ...
There once was a man from Nantucket ... :D

Thats what you get for buying tickets from the Tooth Fairy.
And Eddie Money.

That would explain ecstatic pennings on bathroom stall walls!
Excre-meditation? ;)
Poetic like ... William S. Burroughs, or Bukowski, Jewel :p, or Plath, for example?


...or more like ...
:D

Deary me. Straughn if not for your occasional human failings, based on your repetoire of literary expanse I would have guessed that you're His Almightly himself. :eek:

Don't get cocky yet, Ramon y Cajal didn't have kind words for people with encyclopedic knowledge. A sharp mind has only one edge he'd say.

But he could just be a play'a hater. :D

Deary me. Straughn if not for your occasional human failings,Whaddya mean, occasional? :confused:
I'm as consistent as ... hey, weird story. As i was punching up the last one, a missionary came to my door selling mobiles! Far out! Did i feel bad? Did i giver her money? Did i give her a sound spanking and some yage tea?
(rudely interrupted)...based on your repetoire of literary expanse I would have guessed that you're His Almightly himself. :eek:
Well, there's a thread in which to assess that very issue RIGHT NOW, thanks to Assis. *nods*

Don't get cocky yet, Ramon y Cajal didn't have kind words for people with encyclopedic knowledge. A sharp mind has only one edge he'd say.How many times have i said i was smart? If i hear the tune, i just gotta play it ... even if i am a bit flat. :D

But he could just be a play'a hater. :DWell, he needs to get on here and post a sex thread of some kind. Or politics. Or, titillatingly, both simultaneously. *salivates*
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/crazy/685.gif

yes they do.

and forgive me, but I may have Missed that question. if you are accepting Christianiy, then I am happy for you. If you were questioning your faith, I can only say that these Forums are not the best method for finding your answers.
Nope, just questioning others :)

It requires more faith to believe that life and this world are an accident than it does to believe in God.
That's nice, but accident is not the opposite of design or purpose.

You fail reality.

And it takes much faith to believe god just existed.


Also, I agree with Ashmora, terrible things do happen, and Jesus never promised that life would be peachy keen if you had faith in Him, but that He would help you through any struggle you were faced with, even if that struggle is physical pain or death.

There is death of a worse kind, the death of the spirit, which He can save you from.
There is no spirit.


And also, if there is no God and no "higher power" that dictates what is right and what is wrong
Morality has nothing to do with god. Please throw away your juvenile and infantile misconceptions and arguments.

Before I respond to this, I would like everyone to look at the conversations between GnI, myself, JuNii, and Jocabia. Notice that JuNii and Jocabia were very respectful, polite, and receptive, as were GnI and myself. Notice that a dialogue took place. Notice that we actually heard eachother, and respected eachother.

Now read the rest of the thread. See a difference? Yeah. Me too.

It requires more faith to believe that life and this world are an accident than it does to believe in God.There is proof for one. There isn't for the other.

Also, I agree with Ashmora, terrible things do happen, and Jesus never promised that life would be peachy keen if you had faith in Him, but that He would help you through any struggle you were faced with, even if that struggle is physical pain or death.everyone knows terrible things happen. I can help myself through them, as I have in the past. I don't need a "jesus" figure to hold my hand. I would rather go through hell, and come out able to say "yeah. I made it."

There is death of a worse kind, the death of the spirit, which He can save you from.death of spirit would be an end. I see nothing bad about that.

And also, if there is no God and no "higher power" that dictates what is right and what is wrong - what is good and what is evil, then how could we claim to have some sort of argument against His or its existence by appealing to the evil in the world? Only by assuming that there is evil in the first place can such an argument be made, and that assumption requires some kind of higher power. The jump to God isn't very hard. And if you'd rather jump the other way, and accept that there is no such thing as right or wrong, well, consider what that would imply for your life and how you act. Are you willing to say that murdering babies is not wrong or evil?You make that argument because you believe that there are universal morals. I disagree, and say that morals are subjective. To me, murdering and all that stuff is wrong. They may not be to others. My morals are internal. I choose what is right and wrong for me. I don't kill because I think it is wrong. Not because god says so, but because I do.

Choose your God. Be it money, pleasure, sex, drugs, man, or any list of others - or Jesus. Only one will save you.I worship nothing. I don't choose, it just is. I don't believe in a higher power of any kind, be it material or not.

Would you accept faith in our Savior if it meant you had to go to Hell?that might be among the most important questions...*bows*

that might be among the most important questions...*bows*
Yup, too good. So as usual Corneliu split.

Yup, too good. So as usual Corneliu split.
Ces't la vie, no?

ya know...this thread has garnerd some posters great respect from me. Others...not so much.

Since we're discussing respectful Christians -

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11068315&postcount=115
I'm sorry but as a false christian you are not in a position to correct a true christian. The requirements for being a true Christian is that you have to accept the whole Bible as the word of God. You have already said, in other threads, that you do not accept the WHOLE Bible as having the authority of God, but rather only the bits and peices that agree with you humanistic views.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11068345&postcount=119
You've endorsed tons of violations to law and order. Please don't suggest that you're in a position to suggest others need to be more committed to the ideas. It's just so ridiculous that it's unbelievable.
If you support the right commie sob's like Chavez to continue to oppress their own people, then yes. When the laws of man violate the laws of God, it is our duty to break and ignore the laws of man.

Some days it's such a struggle to defend this kind of behavior from people claiming to know what 'true' Christianity is. What could be more clear proof of God than the fact that we continue to be patient with individuals like this?

I voted no because I do not believe in god in the sense that he plays an active role in the world. I Don't believe God is anything we can perceive, and furthermore, is irrelevant to our current existence.
I believe that man has just made 'God' in his image, and in my opinion, that is inaccurate.
I am also open to the opinion that there is no god at all. But I really just believe god is just beyond our current understanding.

LOST IS A DAMN GOOD SHOW!

I really enjoy it. It is getting pretty far out and wild. I can't wait until the third season begins.

Some days it's such a struggle to defend this kind of behavior from people claiming to know what 'true' Christianity is. What could be more clear proof of God than the fact that we continue to be patient with individuals like this?
Good point.

You make that argument because you believe that there are universal morals. I disagree, and say that morals are subjective. To me, murdering and all that stuff is wrong. They may not be to others. My morals are internal. I choose what is right and wrong for me. I don't kill because I think it is wrong. Not because god says so, but because I do.
I seem to remember that for several days Saint Curie was making the argument that religion can easily lead to people justifying immoral acts... well, views vary.

Would you accept faith in our Savior if it meant you had to go to Hell?
That's a very strange question... in part because being saved is such an integral part of faith in Christ, it is difficult to picture what it would be like if we were to be damned for believing in Christ.

I admit that I cannot answer this question. I really don't know.


P.S.: What the hell does Lost have to do with this? Was it mentioned earlier somewhere that I didn't notice or is that just plain off-topic?

Good point.


I seem to remember that for several days Saint Curie was making the argument that religion can easily lead to people justifying immoral acts... well, views vary.

Yes, just check the Chaves thread. In it, Whittier--- claims it's is God's will that we destroy another sovereign country to 'save' the people of that country.

That's a very strange question... in part because being saved is such an integral part of faith in Christ, it is difficult to picture what it would be like if we were to be damned for believing in Christ.

I admit that I cannot answer this question. I really don't know.


P.S.: What the hell does Lost have to do with this? Was it mentioned earlier somewhere that I didn't notice or is that just plain off-topic?

Lost?

I voted no because I do not believe in god in the sense that he plays an active role in the world. I Don't believe God is anything we can perceive, and furthermore, is irrelevant to our current existence.
I believe that man has just made 'God' in his image, and in my opinion, that is inaccurate.
I am also open to the opinion that there is no god at all. But I really just believe god is just beyond our current understanding.

LOST IS A DAMN GOOD SHOW!

I really enjoy it. It is getting pretty far out and wild. I can't wait until the third season begins.
^
This. It was posted right before my post, and I don't understand how Lost factors into the question of faith at all (I don't watch the show, but still)

Yes, just check the Chaves thread. In it, Whittier--- claims it's is God's will that we destroy another sovereign country to 'save' the people of that country.
Check the Chavez thread indeed! I was the first to reply to that. (my replies consisted mostly of insistently asking Whittier whether he was Pat Robertson:D )

God provided the means and the free will, but Satan to provided the evil to tempt people to use the means against the will of God.


God provided Satan, so its all Gods fault :D

Think about it. God made all of creation, no? Then from whence came Satan? Surely he was not a god in his own right. The serpent is a symbol for humankind's hubris and love for power. "Eat the fruit and you shall become like unto God" was not an external thing, but rather a thought in the head of humans, a desire for power beyond mortal means.

Hey, troll. There's a bridge leaving in ten minutes. Be under it.
:D
Good post.

Ces't la vie, no?

ya know...this thread has garnerd some posters great respect from me. Others...not so much.
Or even, going the opposite direction ... *points at self* ... :(

No wait - i would have had to ALREADY have your respect! ;)

...and i'm all out of turkey basters and butterscotch ... :(

:D
Good post.

Did you pop over to the Chavez thread for a peek? Jocabia and Whittier are having a vicious knifefight as we speak. I have never seen so much blood in my life. :eek:

Then of course I do lead a sheltered life. :)

I seem to remember that for several days Saint Curie was making the argument that religion can easily lead to people justifying immoral acts... well, views vary.
Thankfully, Jocabia has made an excellent effort to qualify Saint Curie's point, even if that wasn't originally the intention.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11068382&postcount=5855

Did you pop over to the Chavez thread for a peek? Jocabia and Whittier are having a vicious knifefight as we speak. I have never seen so much blood in my life. :eek:

Then of course I do lead a sheltered life. :)
I wouldn't mind watching Jocabia since they're particularly good at certain arguments,
and of course i wouldn't mind seeing Whittier getting shanked a few times, but for some reason, as vitriolic as i may seem, i'm in the spiritually cathartic mood of late. *shrugs*
Actually, it'd be hard to pay attention to also, since i'm watching The Greatest American Hero where Ralph is being particularly evil with Pam after finding a new mind-control power when he was procuring a barrel of plutonium from some n'er-do-wells.

But, since you recommend it .... *bows*

It depends. Again, ignore the idea of heaven and hell. All we're talking about are answers, no? If God wanted it to simply be matter of telling you, he would. God could breath all knowledge and all things into your head and you'd never have to explore anything.

Why must it be all or nothing?

Why couldnt, or rather, why wouldnt any kind of God at least impart knowledge of his existance, even if he imparts little of any other kind.
Obviously, any benevolent being would allow mankind to grow and become what it will, like any parent would, but then, any good parent makes sure to make a personal appearance once in a while.


But what would be the fun in that. Is that what you want? Maybe the world is more of an adventure than just being given the answers. When you open a crossword puzzle do you just flip to the back of the book or would you rather work it out?

But see, we get plenty of that with life itself. In fact, the journey itself is what life is all about.
With God, I dont see any kind of presence, or even any sign of existance, except for that wich people convince themselves they have experienced,
partly becuase they are led to believe they ought to.

We're given lots to go on, it's just not shouted at us like all the nonsense so many would have you believe. Is looking within yourself and finding that quiet place too much to ask? [/quote[

If by looking within myself, you mean summon up some blind faith, then the answer is no, I cant.
Some people are hard-wired against being capable of blind faith, and I happen to be the very type.
When you say "We're given lots to go on" Im assuming you mean the Bible.
Let me give you a touch of how my brain works.

The Reasonings of an Atheist:

1. The Bibles origins are in doubt.
The dates they were penned is in question, and therefore we know that its impossible that any kind of information within it, cannot possibly be firsthand accounts of the events they contain.

2.If the events the Bible are not first-hand information, or more likely fourth, or even fifth generation accounts of supernatural events, then the validity of these recollections is in serious doubt.

3. If the validity of these accounts is in question, then no information within can be considered reliable for anything but recreational reading.
Certainly not to be used as a guideline for living your (mine) life.
Most certainly not to be quoted, as fact, or historical reference.

Thats part of it....

[quote]f you could, would you live in a place where nothing is required of you and nothing is ever learned? Where there is nothing to question and no questions at all? No challenges? No adventures? No losses, but also no victories? Would you? Really?

I sure am glad, it's not like that. For myself, that would not a paradise be.

Hmm..I heard of Heaven described as such.

I don't think you have to give up critical thinking skills at all. I'm a Christian and I criticall examine what I see in the Bible and when I find a criticism that someone makes, I research it and examine it. If you blindly follow the Bible as a Christian you are making a mistake. The Bible itself says that.

1 Thesseolonians 5:21 "Critically examine everything"

Did you ever truly stop to critically question the bible's validity?
Sure you may have given serious contemplation to a passage or two, or perhaps didnt agree with a tenet or two, but how often have you sat around thinking "Wait...how do I know for certain that the bible was truly divinely inspired?"



I think the Chruch is sometimes hypocritical, hence one of the reasons why I'm not a catholic. And I dont think much of the work the Chruch does is hypocritcal at all. Yes you all focus on the stuff about the contreceptives and the spread of AIDS which yes is terrible (one of the further reasons I'm not a Catholic) but you forget about the massive ammount of charity work the various chuches do. I know my church organises several relief missions to various parts of Europe, Africa and South America

Yes, you may send them aid, but what they really need are condoms, and the education to use them properly.
The Church refuses to condone it, even though thousands die.

You cannot say with definitive truth that the resurection didn't happen. Equally I can't say that it did, but dont say it didnt when you don't know.

Thats not fair.
By the same logic, you shouldnt be able to claim that it DID happen.
So then, going with that...what else is your religion based on?

Three points

Firstly, we arnt given nothing to go on. There is plenty of evidence that there is out there that shows us who God is and what he is.

I dont feel like repeating myself, so lets just for the sake of arguement, assume the bible isnt proof of anything.

What are we left with?
Speculation.

Speculation isnt enough to make me worship anything.



Secondly, if there was conclusive proof then it would mean that everyone would accept God not out of love, but because they felt they had to.

No it wouldnt.
I happen to know many, many people who would refuse to follow him regardless of wether he suddenly appeared in the sky.

Thirdly, exactly what form would this proof your looking for take. So many people have said to me that they want proof of God, but what form exactly would this proof take? Because we've had lots of forms. We've even had God himself come to us. I'm not sure what it is people really want.

God appeared to us, you say?

When was this?

The Old Testament?

A plate of spaghetti, on a roadside billboard?

Fatima?

If thats what you mean, all of those are pretty weak "evidence."

Why must it be all or nothing?

Why couldnt, or rather, why wouldnt any kind of God at least impart knowledge of his existance, even if he imparts little of any other kind.
Obviously, any benevolent being would allow mankind to grow and become what it will, like any parent would, but then, any good parent makes sure to make a personal appearance once in a while.

I never said it had to be all or nothing. I said, if it's given to you, what's the point. I don't care what it is. And if faith is the point, then it CANNOT be told to us. You assume faith isn't the point because you want it handed to you. And you assume that you know better than the parent when you make your claims. And you dictate how that parent must interact with the child in order to be benevolent in your mind.

But see, we get plenty of that with life itself. In fact, the journey itself is what life is all about.
With God, I dont see any kind of presence, or even any sign of existance, except for that wich people convince themselves they have experienced,
partly becuase they are led to believe they ought to.

Again, you assume. You don't have any idea that what they ought to do is what led them to faith. It could be, but it doesn't have to be.

Again, you get lots of things from life. However, faith, a faith that can never as a living thing be truly guaranteed is a thing not found in any aspect of life. I find it amusing that you claim you get lots of that, but faith should automatically be different. Why should it not be just as much of a growth experience, an adventure, a quest, a puzzle as all of life?


If by looking within myself, you mean summon up some blind faith, then the answer is no, I cant.

Then don't. Whose demanding it of you? I'm not. I also don't demand that you be kind or polite or pleasant or educated or anything else. I think it's to your benefit, but choose to do as you like. And no, no one mentioned blind faith. I didn't tell you to seek anything. I suggested you leave your heart soft and listen and see what's there. Just be willing to hear the answers. However, you choose not too. Can't has nothing to do with it. I don't think you don't have the ability to find a little peace.

Some people are hard-wired against being capable of blind faith, and I happen to be the very type.

Good thing I never mentioned blind faith. Blind faith suggests accepting what someone else finds. I suggested accepting what YOU find. Don't ever listen to what other's tell you to believe. I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm telling you how to find the peace to hear.

When you say "We're given lots to go on" Im assuming you mean the Bible.

You assume wrong. It's amusing that so many found my post so clear but your heart is so hard that you can't drop your preconceptions and listen to what I actually said. The Bible is without. I told you to simply to be open to what is within you. Read it again.

Let me give you a touch of how my brain works.

The Reasonings of an Atheist:

1. The Bibles origins are in doubt.


The dates they were penned is in question, and therefore we know that its impossible that any kind of information within it, cannot possibly be firsthand accounts of the events they contain.

2.If the events the Bible are not first-hand information, or more likely fourth, or even fifth generation accounts of supernatural events, then the validity of these recollections is in serious doubt.

3. If the validity of these accounts is in question, then no information within can be considered reliable for anything but recreational reading.
Certainly not to be used as a guideline for living your (mine) life.
Most certainly not to be quoted, as fact, or historical reference.

Thats part of it....


Phew. Good thing I didn't mention the Bible once. It's unfortunate that you're stuck on the Bible. I am not.

Fallacy: If the Bible is wrong, God doesn't exist.

Why does everyone equate belief with faith?

I believe in God, I just don't have any faith in him. I give him a big thumbs down on his performance review.

Did you pop over to the Chavez thread for a peek? Jocabia and Whittier are having a vicious knifefight as we speak. I have never seen so much blood in my life. :eek:

Then of course I do lead a sheltered life. :)

I seriously think he's popped. He said I advocate a theocracy, that I wish to choose who lives or dies, that I'm a pot-smoking hippie who has promiscuous sex, etc. It's hilarious. It's like he just tries to think of anything insulting and says it.

I seriously think he's popped. He said I advocate a theocracy, that I wish to choose who lives or dies, that I'm a pot-smoking hippie who has promiscuous sex, etc. It's hilarious. It's like he just tries to think of anything insulting and says it.
...and he's on his THIRD incarnation, i think - it has to do with the hyphens. Thus, three guesses how he lost the first two?

...and he's on his THIRD incarnation, i think - it has to do with the hyphens. Thus, three guesses how he lost the first two?

Actually, he uses several incarnations even now. I do think he has been DEATed a couple of times, but I'm not talking about flaming. I'm talking about actually popped.

Actually, he uses several incarnations even now. I do think he has been DEATed a couple of times, but I'm not talking about flaming. I'm talking about actually popped.
Is he on the puppet run? I guess that shouldn't surprise me.
Admittedly, a lot of my first responses to people are particularly flame-like, and i often mellow out afterwards (i dance around that one perhaps a bit too often). Certain topics though, i don't ... obviously. No one in particular :D

...
Firstly, we arnt given nothing to go on. There is plenty of evidence that there is out there that shows us who God is and what he is. There is the Bible and there is the creation around us and the hundruds of experiances of God that people have around the world. Arguably it is not completely conclusive proof, but it is there. It is up to you to accept it or not
...

I asked yesterday (and was promptly ignored) what evidence there is that the Christian version of God exists and none other. Divine experience and whatnot is present in just about all religions. So what is there to say that Christians are right and everybody else is wrong?

I asked yesterday (and was promptly ignored) what evidence there is that the Christian version of God exists and none other. Divine experience and whatnot is present in just about all religions. So what is there to say that Christians are right and everybody else is wrong?
Something useful (which i may have already posted in this thread) -
Treaty of Tripoli, 178(9) - Signed by Adams, ratified by Congress.
Might save you some time. BTW, if you wonder what angle i'm coming from, read a few other posts of mine.

Something useful (which i may have already posted in this thread) -
Treaty of Tripoli, 178(9) - Signed by Adams, ratified by Congress.
Might save you some time. BTW, if you wonder what angle i'm coming from, read a few other posts of mine.

Reading about it (it was from 1796, btw), I have no idea what that has to do with my question. :confused:

I seriously think he's popped. He said I advocate a theocracy, that I wish to choose who lives or dies, that I'm a pot-smoking hippie who has promiscuous sex, etc. It's hilarious. It's like he just tries to think of anything insulting and says it.

I think he did. You have been patient. Underneath the fluent prose he isn't holding a coherent idea in his head for two seconds. Apart from the consistent Jocabia-bashing, that is. :)

I never said it had to be all or nothing. I said, if it's given to you, what's the point. I don't care what it is. And if faith is the point, then it CANNOT be told to us. You assume faith isn't the point because you want it handed to you. And you assume that you know better than the parent when you make your claims. And you dictate how that parent must interact with the child in order to be benevolent in your mind.

I have a pretty solid idea of what I consider to be "benevolent", and honestly, if God exists, he isnt really capable of carrying the moniker.

What Im saying, is that it would be far wiser, to make his presence known, if only to cast away ONE unanswered question, out of one million unanswered questions.

I kinda think humanity has at least earned ONE.




Again, you assume. You don't have any idea that what they ought to do is what led them to faith. It could be, but it doesn't have to be.



Please remember that any formulations on the existance of God, and his relationship with his followers comes from firsthand experience, when I was one of them.
So my observations are not merely my own specualtion, but based on observations of many christians,and my own spiritual decisions.

Mind you, I do not claim to know the reasons why every christian on the planet finds thier faith, nor do I care to.'
I just know more than you give me credit for.



Again, you get lots of things from life.
However, faith, a faith that can never as a living thing be truly guaranteed is a thing not found in any aspect of life. I find it amusing that you claim you get lots of that, but faith should automatically be different. Why should it not be just as much of a growth experience, an adventure, a quest, a puzzle as all of life?

There are many certainties to life, aside from any you can attribute to God.
Franklin quoted two of em.





Then don't. Whose demanding it of you? I'm not. I also don't demand that you be kind or polite or pleasant or educated or anything else. I think it's to your benefit, but choose to do as you like.

Christianity requires adhereance to its scriptures.
Or at least, a belief that what they contain, is the word of God.
To my mind...the bible is not reliable, and to follow it, is to adhere blindly to its principles.



And no, no one mentioned blind faith.

I did.


I didn't tell you to seek anything.

Except peace, wich I assure you, I have.


I suggested you leave your heart soft and listen and see what's there. Just be willing to hear the answers. However, you choose not too. Can't has nothing to do with it. I don't think you don't have the ability to find a little peace.

What on earth makes you believe I dont know any peace?

Do you think peace, wether its peice of mind, or any other kind, comes from god alone?




. Don't ever listen to what other's tell you to believe.

I often say the very same thing.

You assume wrong. It's amusing that so many found my post so clear but your heart is so hard that you can't drop your preconceptions and listen to what I actually said. The Bible is without. I told you to simply to be open to what is within you. Read it again.

Perhaps I truly am misreading your intentions, becuase now it seems as if you may think that these kinds of deep spiritual questions are ones that I have never mulled over.
Or perhaps, becuase the answers I did come up with, are drastically different from your own, that I "didnt do them correctly" or something.

Im sure you didnt mean to be insulting, but your last post was a bit condescending.

Believe me when I say that I have undertaken amny spiritual journeys within my life, and went looking far and wide for Jesus and God, or anyone else that would shed some light on the mysteries of the universe.
However, at the end of the journey, there was nothing except that wich I had convinced myself existed.
Ultimately, God didnt have any answers for me, and in fact, none for anyone else either.

To build a house requires a solid foundation.
In the terms of faith, the foundation of a house of faith may not even exist.
How then, WHY then, would you build that house anyway, only to watch it crumble?





Fallacy: If the Bible is wrong, God doesn't exist.

Fact: If the bible is wrong, then all the information we have of him, is wrong.

Theres far more to indicate the bible isnt reliable, than to prove it is.

Reading about it (it was from 1796, btw), I have no idea what that has to do with my question. :confused:
My apologies.
I'm not really sure how i did it, but i SWORE i read your post imploring a christian to prove that there was some literature that qualified a lack of seperation between church and state.
Upon review, my response appears to have almost nothing to do with your post.
Again, i apologize. :confused:
All my time here and i've *NEVER* done that.

My apologies.
I'm not really sure how i did it, but i SWORE i read your post imploring a christian to prove that there was some literature that qualified a lack of seperation between church and state.
Upon review, my response appears to have almost nothing to do with your post.
Again, i apologize. :confused:
All my time here and i've *NEVER* done that.

I befuddled Straughn? :eek:

That must make me... a SUPER VILLAIN! All will fear me! :D

I befuddled Straughn? :eek:
Admittedly, Straughn took part in the befuddling. You were apt at paying attention. But party on Wayne, party on Garth! :)
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/party/fest06.gif
I STILL haven't figured out how i saw that. In my recollection, i even saw it TWICE. :confused:

That must make me... a SUPER VILLAIN! All will fear me! :DSuper villain? Or saviour?
Depends on the thread, i suspect. :D
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=485024&highlight=Straughn+obsessed

I have a pretty solid idea of what I consider to be "benevolent", and honestly, if God exists, he isnt really capable of carrying the moniker.

What Im saying, is that it would be far wiser, to make his presence known, if only to cast away ONE unanswered question, out of one million unanswered questions.

I kinda think humanity has at least earned ONE.

Again, you confuse what people tell you God is with what He might be. Remember that there might be a point defeated by answering that one question even if you don't see it. You start with an assumption and prove it with a circular assumption. I'm not saying the fact that you're using a fallacy proves your conclusion wrong or mine right, but it's still a fallacy.

Please remember that any formulations on the existance of God, and his relationship with his followers comes from firsthand experience, when I was one of them.
So my observations are not merely my own specualtion, but based on observations of many christians,and my own spiritual decisions.

Yes, but you're replying to me. Not MANY Christians. I made a point of dismissing outside issues at the beginning of my post. You aren't talking to other Christians.

Mind you, I do not claim to know the reasons why every christian on the planet finds thier faith, nor do I care to.'
I just know more than you give me credit for.

I'm not attacking what you know, per se. I'm asking you to let go of your 'forgone conclusions'. If you are generally asking the question then it's a necessity. If you're not, then you're disingenuously debating me.


There are many certainties to life, aside from any you can attribute to God.
Franklin quoted two of em.

Not germaine to the point. The fact is that you assume this one should be different from so many other natural expectations, expectations you mentioned.


Christianity requires adhereance to its scriptures.

Christianity in it's rawest form requires worship of Christ. The requirement for adherance to scripture is a product of the Catholic Church. We are not talking about the Bible. If I wanted you to look in the Bible, I think I would have mentioned it. In fact, I mentioned in both my posts about ignoring some of the things you find in the Bible.

Or at least, a belief that what they contain, is the word of God.

Really? Can you tell me how that's a requirement of Christianity? It certainly appears in the Bible, however, that Bible was created by the Catholic Church, which last time I checked is not the only church of Christians.

To my mind...the bible is not reliable, and to follow it, is to adhere blindly to its principles.

Fortunately, we're not talking about the Bible. If I was telling you to adhere to the Bible, I might have used the word, oh, I don't know, Bible.

I did.

Now do it again without the assumptions about the Bible.

Except peace, wich I assure you, I have.

Yeah, sort of. I was asking you to look at something that does exist and to simply analyze what you feel. It's not a short process. But for my money, it's the best way to find Him.


What on earth makes you believe I dont know any peace?

I'm just replying to what you say. You said you can't do what I asked. All I asked you to do was to find a peaceful place and analyze what you find there. If you read what I said to GnI, I mentioned that one may not always find it right away. All I asked of him and of anyone is that they keep a soft heart. Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. I don't believe not finding it condemns you to hell. But I do believe you gain by finding Him. And if nothing else you gain by the process.

Do you think peace, wether its peice of mind, or any other kind, comes from god alone?

No. And I didn't suggest that. I said the world is to loud to let you hear the messages on your heart. Peace isn't the answer. It's where the answers lie.

I often say the very same thing.

Good. Then you can see where I'm coming from.

Perhaps I truly am misreading your intentions, becuase now it seems as if you may think that these kinds of deep spiritual questions are ones that I have never mulled over.

No, I don't think that. I think that you've drawn conclusions and put them in hand and you're no longer to challenging them. I've seen you around the threads. You've got a hardon for Christians. Yes, some Christians are a problem in today's world. Becoming like them is not the solution. However, I do think that you're very capable of this, but you have to take with you an open mind and heart. Even if you never find anything there, you won't be sorry for enjoying the peace.

Or perhaps, becuase the answers I did come up with, are drastically different from your own, that I "didnt do them correctly" or something.

Not didn't do them correctly. As a scientist, you know evidence for non-existence cannot be found when talking about an entity. You can only lack evidence. It does not lead to a conclusion. However, non-emperical evidence does exist. Thus it's possible to land on the conclusion that God exists reasonably but not on the conclusion that he doesn't. Now, it's not a scientific or provable conclusion, but I can't prove I was scare of giant fish growing up, but that doesn't mean I wasn't.

I'm don't think less of you. I only ask that you keep an open mind and heart. I do. I accept that I could find evidence one day that I'm crazy. As of yet though, I have not found it to be wrong and I have found others that through the same tactics they found the same conclusion. And I did not start with conclusion in hand. My father would kill me if he knew where my faith lies. And my mother has no faith really.

Im sure you didnt mean to be insulting, but your last post was a bit condescending.

I didn't like your assumptions. I made a distinct effort to leave such things out of the post. And, I'll tell you, I see a lot of your posts. I wrote my reply assuming vitriol and then edited my post when I realized you were fairly patient. If it was still rude, I apologize. It was meant be sarcastic, but in an amusing way, not a rude way.

Believe me when I say that I have undertaken amny spiritual journeys within my life, and went looking far and wide for Jesus and God, or anyone else that would shed some light on the mysteries of the universe.
However, at the end of the journey, there was nothing except that wich I had convinced myself existed.
Ultimately, God didnt have any answers for me, and in fact, none for anyone else either.

From your assumptions, it seems to me that you chose I path I wouldn't recommend. I do think the Bible is useful, but one must shake of the preconceptions first. People who drag you down the wrong path (not talking about Atheists here) fill you so full of nonsense so quickly as a child that it takes a lot to shake such a thing off.

To build a house requires a solid foundation.
In the terms of faith, the foundation of a house of faith may not even exist.
How then, WHY then, would you build that house anyway, only to watch it crumble?

Because it's not a house and it cannot crumble. You can't use such an example. If God is the foundation and you decide to build a house of faith, when will it crumble assuming your never lose your faith. You're going to suddenly find proof God doesn't exist. I assure you, you use faith all the time, but don't realize it. This kind of faith is particularly difficult because there are so many that try to mislead us, again, not talking about Atheists.


Fact: If the bible is wrong, then all the information we have of him, is wrong.
Nope. You based it on the same basic and flawed assumption. You assume the only information that matters is on paper. I assert that almost none of the information that matters is on paper. Stop listening to them and look within.

Theres far more to indicate the bible isnt reliable, than to prove it is.
Why do you keep asserting this while I keep telling you that I'm not relying on the Bible?

It seems to me you've not tried to build a house with God as the foundation. Like so many, you place the Bible, a document severely damaged by the Catholic Church, as the foundation. And yes, that's a problem.

Again, just do me this favor. I know you read my post. Go back read it again. Assume I do not want you to consider anything of the Bible except the small messages I mentioned, which I think you'd agree are worthwhile regardless of origin. Don't worry about what people tell you or added scriptures tell you about what you must accept. Don't worry about what preachers and pharisees tell you to believe. Simply find that place you say you've visited before but this time erase all those obstacles that made you see what you found in my post. I'm not talking about dogma, the movie or the book. I'm talking about creating a personal relationship.

NOTE: I'm very tired. I stayed up to answer this. If it sounds impatient it is completely accidental. The other post did come of condescending, but I did try to edit that out. You don't warrant condescention. Meanwhile, I don't warrant the assumptions. I'm not Whittier. Please treat me as a unique individual and take my posts from whence they come.

Good think Corneliu covered this earlier.

I did?

NO you don't, you've got two dudes who say things CONSIDERABLY LATER -Josephus and Tacitus, and due the nature of the material, someone WHO PREFERS TO ADMIT ANONYMOUS AND UNRELIABLE MATERIAL (like the others but even without a nom de plume) as the NAME OF A VARIABLE: Q (Quotient!!! :rolleyes: )

The evidence is all around if you have your eyes and ears open.

Nothing "temporary" is a true sacrifice to omnipotence. *shakes head*

lol

It requires more faith to believe that life and this world are an accident than it does to believe in God.

Also, I agree with Ashmora, terrible things do happen, and Jesus never promised that life would be peachy keen if you had faith in Him, but that He would help you through any struggle you were faced with, even if that struggle is physical pain or death.

There is death of a worse kind, the death of the spirit, which He can save you from.

And also, if there is no God and no "higher power" that dictates what is right and what is wrong - what is good and what is evil, then how could we claim to have some sort of argument against His or its existence by appealing to the evil in the world? Only by assuming that there is evil in the first place can such an argument be made, and that assumption requires some kind of higher power. The jump to God isn't very hard. And if you'd rather jump the other way, and accept that there is no such thing as right or wrong, well, consider what that would imply for your life and how you act. Are you willing to say that murdering babies is not wrong or evil?

Choose your God. Be it money, pleasure, sex, drugs, man, or any list of others - or Jesus. Only one will save you.

*applaudes*

Well said and welcome to the forums :)

Again, you confuse what people tell you God is with what He might be. Remember that there might be a point defeated by answering that one question even if you don't see it. You start with an assumption and prove it with a circular assumption. I'm not saying the fact that you're using a fallacy proves your conclusion wrong or mine right, but it's still a fallacy.

Its only a fallacy to you.
Your asking to look deep within and find the answer you want me to find.
I keep telling you...it isnt there.
If it was, I would have remained a Christian.



Yes, but you're replying to me. Not MANY Christians. I made a point of dismissing outside issues at the beginning of my post. You aren't talking to other Christians.

I can only base my knowledge of Christianity, on my own personal experience, and that gained from observing other christians.
I only know you as a name on a forum, nothing more.
Ergo, its only logical that I speak from what I know to be true.



I'm not attacking what you know, per se. I'm asking you to let go of your 'forgone conclusions'. If you are generally asking the question then it's a necessity. If you're not, then you're disingenuously debating me.

Wich foregone conclusions would that be?
The one that tells me that God never existed?
Cuz thats gonna be hard to do.

Keep in mind, I didnt always feel that way, its something that I had to search very hard, and thought about for years.




Not germaine to the point. The fact is that you assume this one should be different from so many other natural expectations, expectations you mentioned.




Christianity in it's rawest form requires worship of Christ. The requirement for adherance to scripture is a product of the Catholic Church.

Your particular denomination doesnt use the bible?
I find that hard to believe.



We are not talking about the Bible. If I wanted you to look in the Bible, I think I would have mentioned it. In fact, I mentioned in both my posts about ignoring some of the things you find in the Bible.

Very well, we arent talking about the bible.
Even though Im likely going to have to refer to it, to answer the next statement below.



Really? Can you tell me how that's a requirement of Christianity? It certainly appears in the Bible, however, that Bible was created by the Catholic Church, which last time I checked is not the only church of Christians.

Easily done.
The most important things the bible espouses to Christianity, (New testament, obviously) are the birth, death, and ressurection of Jesus.
Acceptance of this, is absolutely crucial, and strictly required to be a christian.
If any christian pays little attention to it, they arent really sticking with thier own religions teachings, are they?



Fortunately, we're not talking about the Bible. If I was telling you to adhere to the Bible, I might have used the word, oh, I don't know, Bible.

Well we arent anymore, I suppose.




Yeah, sort of. I was asking you to look at something that does exist and to simply analyze what you feel. It's not a short process. But for my money, it's the best way to find Him.

There is no "Him" to find.
Ive looked very hard, for a very long time.
As much as I might wish otherwise, he doesnt exist.

Let me put it to you this way:

Obviously, you have given this much thought over time.
Your path led you to believe God exists.
Mine finally showed me that following a make-believe sky man, is silly to the point of being absurd.
My path and its ultimate answer is no less right, or wrong than yours.
It was no easier, nor harder.
I did just as much deep meditation and mulling of the subject, and a complete and total lack of evidence was enough to finally persuade me that there was nothing there to be found, except for that wich I had convinced myself was there.






absense of evidence, is not evidence of absence

Forgive me if I start getting pissed.
I dont mean to offend.

That sentence is fucking retarded, and Im SO tired of everyone using it.

If you spend 20 days searching a room for a magical pink unicorn, and at the end of this time period, after covering every square inch of that room, no pink unicorn can be found...it is RETARDED to continue to assume that indeed, a magical pink unicorn is within the room.

That statement serves only to prove that people will convince themselves that something exists, when all other logic has failed.

People will insist that the unicorn is still there, even if the entire room has been searched top to bottom.

Grrr........

Sorry....moving on...


And I didn't suggest that. I said the world is to loud to let you hear the messages on your heart. Peace isn't the answer. It's where the answers lie.


Couldnt it be possible, that my heart tells me, that no matter how much I wish I were wrong, that the believe I have is the correct one?


Good. Then you can see where I'm coming from.



No, I don't think that. I think that you've drawn conclusions and put them in hand and you're no longer to challenging them.

I might say the same of you.
Rather, I think that you are not seeing conviction where it is.
Why God, and not Odin?
Why God, and not Allah?
Vishnu?
Buddha?

What makes you so convinced that not only does God exist, that your assumptions of him, are less valid than mine?

You speak from a viewpoint that if I assk myself a question that I have asked myself more than just about any other, that I may have some sort of epiphany, and will see the light.
I once again, assure you, that the technique you speak of, has already been performed countless times.

The difference is, that you feel that I have something to gain, be it piece of mind, or general well being, and I think it would probably make you happy if I found it.
This perhaps, is what separates you from other christian whackos on this forum.
While they would want me coverted because if I dont, Im damned to hell in thier eyes, you may wish me simply to be a little happier.
For that, I think you stand alone on this forum.
Ive read many of your posts as well, and indeed you have a far more open mind than many of your peers who share your faith.


ve seen you around the threads. You've got a hardon for Christians. Yes, some Christians are a problem in today's world.

Perhaps I do have a hard-on for em, but only the arrogant ones.
You dont really qualify.
I enjoy debating religion with the ones like yourself, and to be honest, sometimes enjoy toying with ones who arent as clever, or as smart.
My long posts with Maypole, yesterday, is a prime example of this.

Most of the time, I simply enjoy getting christians to consider different viewpoints.
Converting the staunch right-wing Christians, however, is next to impossible, so I never try.
I only hope they can honestly ask themselves any of the questions I pose to them.

In the case of a few hard-liners, I occasionally rise to assholery when it gets shouted from its soapbox.
Particularly when mention of fire and brimstone are involved, if you get my meaning.



Becoming like them is not the solution. However, I do think that you're very capable of this, but you have to take with you an open mind and heart. Even if you never find anything there, you won't be sorry for enjoying the peace.

Would it surprise you to hear that I pride myself on having an open mind?






Not didn't do them correctly. As a scientist, you know evidence for non-existence cannot be found when talking about an entity. You can only lack evidence. It does not lead to a conclusion.

Thats not entirely true.
Lack of evidence, can lead to a conclusion, when no evidence to support your theory can be obtained.

In other words, when attempting an experiment to see if x+b = xb, and your results show no evidence of your hypothesis, then you can at least, assume your hypothesis is incorrect.


However, non-emperical evidence does exist. Thus it's possible to land on the conclusion that God exists reasonably but not on the conclusion that he doesn't. Now, it's not a scientific or provable conclusion, but I can't prove I was scare of giant fish growing up, but that doesn't mean I wasn't.

What sort of non-emperical evidence?
Someone who has convinced themselves that God gave them a warm fuzzy feeling after they prayed?

Becuase thats just not evidence of any kind.

By that sort of logic, Sasquatch, the Loch Ness Monster, Alien anal probes, and the Illuminati all exist just as much as God does.




I didn't like your assumptions. I made a distinct effort to leave such things out of the post. And, I'll tell you, I see a lot of your posts. I wrote my reply assuming vitriol and then edited my post when I realized you were fairly patient. If it was still rude, I apologize. It was meant be sarcastic, but in an amusing way, not a rude way.

Ive told you the sort of Christians I dive on.
Only the ones that have it coming.
Aside from a misunderstanding, youve been very polite.
If you dont thump the bible at anyone, I'll never give you any crap.



From your assumptions, it seems to me that you chose I path I wouldn't recommend. I do think the Bible is useful, but one must shake of the preconceptions first. People who drag you down the wrong path (not talking about Atheists here) fill you so full of nonsense so quickly as a child that it takes a lot to shake such a thing off.

It may also surprise you to know that I have become far more familiar with the Bible, since becoming an Atheist.



Because it's not a house and it cannot crumble.

Sure it can.
People lose faith all the time.




Nope. You based it on the same basic and flawed assumption. You assume the only information that matters is on paper. I assert that almost none of the information that matters is on paper. Stop listening to them and look within.

Once again, my interest in the bible, came well after leaving christianity behind.
So, in a very real way, the bible itself, had little to do with my personal revalations.


It seems to me you've not tried to build a house with God as the foundation. Like so many, you place the Bible, a document severely damaged by the Catholic Church, as the foundation. And yes, that's a problem.

That would be a mistaken assumption, however I totally agree with you about what the Church has done to the bible.


NOTE: I'm very tired.

Me too.


I stayed up to answer this.


Same here.


If it sounds impatient it is completely accidental.

It does not.


Please treat me as a unique individual and take my posts from whence they come.

Done, and done.

Good night.

*applaudes*

Well sad and welcome to the forums :)

An accurate, if rather inarticulate, assessment of the post in question.

An accurate, if rather inarticulate, assessment of the post in question.

A letter didn't get in there dispite me typing the letter. *grrr.

A letter didn't get in there dispite me typing the letter. *grrr.

I'm sorry, it was too tempting. :D

I'm sorry, it was too tempting. :D

yea yea. Your forgiven :D

I'm baaaaack... [and yes, the 4 extra a's WERE necessary]

Or even, going the opposite direction ... *points at self* ... :(

No wait - i would have had to ALREADY have your respect! ;)

...and i'm all out of turkey basters and butterscotch ... :(

Mmmm, butterscotch....

The evidence is all around if you have your eyes and ears open.


This is true... everyday I see so many little symbioitic exchanges, so many little balances, such an elegant little dance, that it is getting harder and harder to continue denying the truth of Gaia.

I think its far, far sadder that so many people are willing to blindly follow ancient words in a text written by humans, and never question the words, or the reasons why they do so.

I think its horrible that people choose to be ignorant, and wallow in whatever messages the Church gives them, and yet, refuse to look at the churches own hippocracy.

I think its so, so sad that being a true christian ultimately means you have to give up critcal thinking skills, and believe fairy tales as evidence to one of lifes most important questions.

I think its even sadder that a religion that had such a good message was overshadowed by its own dogma, and concentrated on a ressurection that never happened, instead of the messages and wisdom taught by the very man all christians claim to love and accept.
In other words, they claim to love Christ SO MUCH, and yet, barely follow anything he said.

Thats sad.

Sorry, but I think if you are in an organisation you follow it,thats why you are part of it. It is not ancient at all. Ancient are the new barbaric practices that are being legislised. Christ is still with us so it is not ancient. He is with us all the time. If it as you say a good message why don't you follow it or are you afraid to follow the difficult steps of a christian/catholic which are extremley difficult and thats a main reason why people leave the Church. And the reserrection happened, because if didn't happen our Religion would be a piece of rubbish. That is the focal piont. If you are a true christian my friend actually you think more and stop believing fairy tales and believe the real stuff not vice-versa. I think it is even sadder that people accuse the Church of hippocracy when only a small small percentage of it is like that as in any other organisation. Well, the fact that we don't seem to follow Christ is becauese it is so difficult but if we try hard enough God will be pleased and still be rewarded ate the end.

NB. This is for Visual Kei. I asked a local priest on the question he asked several times about God not being everywhere. In hell, first of all hell is not a place, it is a state, so you won't see a sign with the words hell. In this state because God is so kind he will love you more, but the more he does the more you hate him, thats why God is omnipresnt and omnipotent, He is above everything else.

Good, you're back Corneliu. Let's see if you answer me this time.

Corneliu, I know you like to avoid questions when you can't answer them (you already did this to me about 100 pages back more or less), so I ask you again:

How do you *ahem* know? Jesus isn't recognized by the majority of humanity as a Messiah in any way shape or form. How can you possibly prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

Face it, you have no proof whatsoever that your God is any truer than any other bevy of "true" Gods which have their directly spoken word in some form (the Koran, the Vedas in a way as well), or divine prophets (Buddha, Zoroaster).


No bullshit, no *snip*, answer the question.

Nice army base ya got here, colonel ... be a shame if anything were to ... happen to it ...

No imagination needed, just an awareness of the meaning of the words used.
Therefore:
God - Go will be ashamed of you and resent that you will meet him and talk with him. It's heard plenty of self-absorbed bullsh*t before, and you're no better. You basically waste its time and patience, even sympathies, with your self-absorption.
Nature - you will be hostile to your natural surroundings, under the fallacious assumption that you're actually superior to them. Instead, you inflict physical pain to them.
People - People will vent themselves at you cursing and offending. You will attempt to make friends, but realistically, they're just as shallow as you, so you feel right at home. And they'll surround you, so YOU'LL NEVER GET AWAY FROM THEM.
Yourself - you'll be so self-absorbed that you'll never notice everyone else being angry at you. You won't bother blaspheming since you can't think for yourself in a way that challenges your intellect or soul, you've already killed off those parts of your integrity for sake of a slavery wrapped in a delicate shell of false security. You'll be frustrated that everyone else that you remember didn't try hard enough to be as miserable as you.

So, that about covers it, eh? ;)

You know what ... this explains PRETTY WELL the idea of trying to force a "heaven on earth" and the mentality/results behind it. :eek:


Why just you don't tell us that you are a BIG ATHEIST and get over it instead of launching a personal unfounded unsupported attack against me when you don't know a single damned thing about me.

Don't let that keep you from arguing about it ... oh wait, never mind. Keep up the good work. :rolleyes:

My God, never knew you hated me so much, shall I cut my head for you maybe it will make you happy?:p

*snip :p*

I know he is real because I have felt his presence with me. I know he is real because he has called to me using a variety of methods. I know he is real because I feel more complete with him in my life.

I know he is real because I have felt his presence with me. I know he is real because he has called to me using a variety of methods. I know he is real because I feel more complete with him in my life.
Wait, that doesn't answer the question at all. I asked how you can prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

I don't care why you feel they are real. I want to know how you can possibly assert that your beliefs are any truer than the bevy of other beliefs, including significantly older ones. Perhaps you've felt the presence of the Buddha, or of Vishnu, or of Baldar for that matter.

I know he is real. I cannot prove that he is real but I know that He is real. Just because there is no proof that something is real doesn't mean that it isn't.

I could point to examples but would they do any good?

...are you afraid to follow the difficult steps of a christian/catholic which are extremley difficult and thats a main reason why people leave the Church.


I disagree. I think most people leave a church because that church doesn't fit them any more.


And the reserrection happened, because if didn't happen our Religion would be a piece of rubbish.

You said it...

Wait, that doesn't answer the question at all. I asked how you can prove that your "One True God" is any truer than Hindu's pantheon of thousands? How is your "divine" Bible any more "divine" than the Koran? How are Jesus' teachings any more divine than Buddha's (especially as Buddha existed first and, if you believe in some forms of Buddhism, was a God in his own right)? How about Confuscius for that matter?

I don't care why you feel they are real. I want to know how you can possibly assert that your beliefs are any truer than the bevy of other beliefs, including significantly older ones. Perhaps you've felt the presence of the Buddha, or of Vishnu, or of Baldar for that matter.


Well the answer is simple, ours is a Historic religion while theirs isn't. Our religion and Judiasim were based through acts of God. God actually intervened. In others there was no divine Intervention, even if some state that there was. The Jewish nation however left God and a new Church was founded for all the people not just Jewish. That is the difference, the simple and only answer to your worries, my friend.

I know he is real because I have felt his presence with me. I know he is real because he has called to me using a variety of methods. I know he is real because I feel more complete with him in my life.

People say the very same things about a wealth of OTHER gods, too.

So - they are ALL real, yes?

I know he is real. I cannot prove that he is real but I know that He is real. Just because there is no proof that something is real doesn't mean that it isn't.

I could point to examples but would they do any good?

They might?

I disagree. I think most people leave a church because that church doesn't fit them any more.

Here I can actually agree with you Gni

Well the answer is simple, ours is a Historic religion while theirs isn't. Our religion and Judiasim were based through acts of God. God actually intervened. In others there was no divine Intervention, even if some state that there was. The Jewish nation however left God and a new Church was founded for all the people not just Jewish. That is the difference, the simple and only answer to your worries, my friend.

Other religions had no divine intervention... and if they state they DID, they are lying?

So - how can you be sure the SAME thing is not true of your OWN religion?

I disagree. I think most people leave a church because that church doesn't fit them any more.



You said it...

It would be a piece of rubbish since We claim Jesus was the Son of God, and if he didn't win over death that means that we would have been defeated, not because the reseruction is the only plausible think in our religion, everything is correct and plausible in our religion.

People say the very same things about a wealth of OTHER gods, too.

So - they are ALL real, yes?

And yet...the one true God has had the prophecies fulfilled. The False Gods have not.

I know he is real because I have felt his presence with me. I know he is real because he has called to me using a variety of methods. I know he is real because I feel more complete with him in my life.
So.. he's a placebo?

Here I can actually agree with you Gni

That's your quota for this week... if you want to agree with me again, you have to wait till Tuesday. ;)

Well the answer is simple, ours is a Historic religion while theirs isn't. Our religion and Judiasim were based through acts of God. God actually intervened. In others there was no divine Intervention, even if some state that there was. The Jewish nation however left God and a new Church was founded for all the people not just Jewish. That is the difference, the simple and only answer to your worries, my friend.Islam happens to be based on Judaism too, you know. And what makes the statements in the bible more true than those stated in other religious texts?

It would be a piece of rubbish since We claim Jesus was the Son of God, and if he didn't win over death that means that we would have been defeated, not because the reseruction is the only plausible think in our religion, everything is correct and plausible in our religion.

So - God's entire existence for you, hinges on the literal accuracy of the Bible?

That's a pretty shaky position of faith, don't you think?

That's your quota for this week... if you want to agree with me again, you have to wait till Tuesday. ;)

Aww why so long? :(

Few problems I have with Christianity:

God punishes the children for the sins of their fathers until the third and fourth generations (accordig to exodus). The children did not commit the sins. Why should they be punished? This seems unjust to me.

In the OT God there were set laws for Israel. Some of these laws are rather questionable. For instance, If a man rapes a woman the penalty is that the man must pay 50 pieces of silver to the womans father and then MARRY the woman. A woman being forced to marry the man that raped her would be torture. Why would God make such a thing law?

The laws of the old covenant are different to the laws of the new covenant. Why is it that God's law changes? Morality is absolute, yet God seems to have changed his mind about it. If I were in God's position, my law would apply to ALL of humanity, irrespective of what time period they lived in. Why does God change his mind about it?

There are plenty more problems, but lets just clear up these for the moment.

Islam happens to be based on Judaism too, you know. And what makes the statements in the bible more true than those stated in other religious texts?

Islam is also the youngest of the 3 religions. Judaism being the oldest, Christianity being the middle child, and Islam the youngest brother.

And yet...the one true God has had the prophecies fulfilled. The False Gods have not.You know all the other prophecies and that they haven't been fulfilled?

Like the end time prophecies that have yet to come true?

Other religions had no divine intervention... and if they state they DID, they are lying?

So - how can you be sure the SAME thing is not true of your OWN religion?

Yes, they are, for example in Islam Mohammad created it to gain political and financial power not because The Arc-Angel talked to him. No our religion has concrete facts and miracle which are still shown by people with special charismas like inedity, which means a person living only on The Host, and one particular case was studied for six months by six atheist doctors in close confinement living only on ONE HOLY HOST a day. Impossible they said and she went free clearly showing the truth. Also thier is the Stigmata Charisma were Jesus's wounds are replicated, very difficult to fake I suppose but people still don't believe or The Virgin Mary crying or.....or......or........or.........THE LIST IS ENDLESS MY FRIEND. YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH TO BELIEVE NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOFS.

And yet...the one true God has had the prophecies fulfilled. The False Gods have not.

I'd argue that the Christian scripture fails to fulfill almost ANY of the prophecies of the Hebrew scripture.

I'd also argue that MANY of the 'prophecies' the Greek scripture CLAIMS it fulfills... were not prophecies AT ALL, in the Hebrew scripture... like 'being born of a virgin' (Seriously - reseacrh around the subject, the actual Hebrew doesn't emntion a virgin at all, and it is a comment about an existing person, not a prophecy).


Also - Baha'i scripture claims fulfillment of prophecy. Jewish scripture claims fulfillment of prophecy - but doesn't accept your version of Messiah.

Christianity is not the first, and is far from the ONLY, religion to have claimed prophecy fulfilled.

Like the end time prophecies that have yet to come true?No, I mean the ones from the "False Gods". Do you have a profound knowledge of all of them to make a valid statement that their prophecies haven't come true?

Aww why so long? :(

It's your own fault... you already agreed with me once, earlier this week. :)

Islam is also the youngest of the 3 religions. Judaism being the oldest, Christianity being the middle child, and Islam the youngest brother.

You are basing this on the formation of the organised churches...

Islam claims it's origins in Ishmael... that would make it a much 'older brother' than Christianity.

It's your own fault... you already agreed with me once, earlier this week. :)

We need to restructer that deal :D

You are basing this on the formation of the organised churches...

Islam claims it's origins in Ishmael... that would make it a much 'older brother' than Christianity.

You are indeed correct. :)

Yes, they are, for example in Islam Mohammad created it to gain political and financial power not because The Arc-Angel talked to him. No our religion has concrete facts and miracle which are still shown by people with special charismas like inedity, which means a person living only on The Host, and one particular case was studied for six months by six atheist doctors in close confinement living only on ONE HOLY HOST a day. Impossible they said and she went free clearly showing the truth. Also thier is the Stigmata Charisma were Jesus's wounds are replicated, very difficult to fake I suppose but people still don't believe or The Virgin Mary crying or.....or......or........or.........THE LIST IS ENDLESS MY FRIEND. YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH TO BELIEVE NOT SCIENTIFIC PROOFS.

Erm... are you speaking in tongues?

You are indeed correct. :)

Great - now you've FORCED a restructure... :D

That's cheating. ;)

Great - now you've FORCED a restructure... :D

That's cheating. ;)

So sorry but it did have to be restructured :D

Sorry, but I think if you are in an organisation you follow it,thats why you are part of it. It is not ancient at all. Ancient are the new barbaric practices that are being legislised. Christ is still with us so it is not ancient. He is with us all the time. If it as you say a good message why don't you follow it or are you afraid to follow the difficult steps of a christian/catholic which are extremley difficult and thats a main reason why people leave the Church. And the reserrection happened, because if didn't happen our Religion would be a piece of rubbish. That is the focal piont. If you are a true christian my friend actually you think more and stop believing fairy tales and believe the real stuff not vice-versa. I think it is even sadder that people accuse the Church of hippocracy when only a small small percentage of it is like that as in any other organisation. Well, the fact that we don't seem to follow Christ is becauese it is so difficult but if we try hard enough God will be pleased and still be rewarded at the end.

Now Christianity is an organisation?

IT IS ANCIENT.

ancient (nshnt)
1. Of great age; very old.
2. Of or relating to times long past, especially those of the historical period before the fall of the Western Roman Empire (A.D. 476).
3. Old-fashioned; antiquated.
4.Having the qualities associated with age, wisdom, or long use; venerable.
5. See synonyms at old.

Prove God is with you all the time. People leave the church because they LOSE FAITH which is no crime. If it is because of the "difficult practices" I would actually say it would be religion with more practices than meeting on Sundays, and only caring that day, except for the Catholics who are VERY thorough. To Athiests and people of other religions, your religion is a fary tale. Who said he was a true Christian? I believed he was an athiest, correct? Once again prove god is real. I see millions of Christians and still don't believe. I see a figure as powerful as the Pope, and still don't believe. I see a free bottle of 21 year old wine and still don't believe. I want to see these ancient miracles, walking on water, water to wine, one fish to thousands, one loaf of bread to hundreds. I DON'T SEE IT.

Yes..but not in the christian belief of him.

No evidence either way really. Why do you need evidence to prove a negative? Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows there is/are no god/gods.:rolleyes:

Why do you need evidence to prove a negative? Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows there is/are no god/gods.:rolleyes:

The Greeks were smart, and they believe in Gods...

Prove God is with you all the time.
Prove that you're awake.

Well the answer is simple, ours is a Historic religion while theirs isn't. Our religion and Judiasim were based through acts of God. God actually intervened. In others there was no divine Intervention, even if some state that there was. The Jewish nation however left God and a new Church was founded for all the people not just Jewish. That is the difference, the simple and only answer to your worries, my friend.
Buddhism is hundreds of years older than Christianity. Technically speaking, Buddhism is pure divine intervention, as the Buddha himself is a semi-divine to purely divine (depending upon your belief) being in Buddhism. The equivalent for Christianity would be God literally, not a Jesus figure (which is more equivalent to a Dalai Llama, or other high spiritual figure), walking the Earth and spreading his faith. Hinduism is hundreds of years older than Christianity. Hinduism has a bevy of stories of divine intervention, just glimpse through the Vedas. Furthermore, your assertions about Judaism are just wrong. Historically speaking, the only Jews were Jews by descent. There was no such thing in ancient times as a converted Jew, you were born a Jew or you weren't a Jew. That's why they were "the Chosen People". Their religion was for the Hebrew people, not all people. Your assertions are positively ridiculuous in this regard.

As for your proofs, the first is an anecdote that is so patently absurd its not even worth talking about. As for stigmata...well, I could give myself stigmata without trouble, it'd just be very painful. Not exactly a big deal. Every religion has associated revelations. Buddhist llamas being resurrected. Hindu's in an endless cycle of resurrection. Christianity isn't unique in this regard.

Lastly, Christianity is younger than most of the other religions in the world, the only major religion younger than Christianity is Islam. Buddhism is older. Taoism is older. Judaism is older (though directly related, though they share fundamentally different tenements today). Hell, Zoroastrianism is far far older (and yes, they still exist).

Why do you need evidence to prove a negative? Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows there is/are no god/gods.:rolleyes:

1) I may be a godless heathen, and happy that way - but I've met some very smart people... in 'real life' and on NationStates, that are Christian. There doesn't seem to be any provable link.

2) Even if your assertion WAS right... a conviction that there are NO gods, would be just as bad as one tht there ARE gods. The only RATIONAL platform would be a lack of strong conviction either way.

Prove that you're awake.

I can't. I do not believe I am awake either. in fact, sometimes I think all of life is a dream, but I don't BELIEVE it.

I can't. I do not believe I am awake either. in fact, sometimes I think all of life is a dream, but I don't BELIEVE it.
What then distinguishes "believe" from "think it might be"?

What then distinguishes "believe" from "think it might be"?

believe: solid
think it might be: ponder, not certain

and on that happy note, i say good day

What then distinguishes "believe" from "think it might be"?

"Think it might be" is a postulate requiring empirical evidence or personal experience to confirm or deny.

"Believe" is a conclusion, of unshakable certainty, [usu.] independent of empirical evidence and almost solely based upon personal experience.

Neither is correct, both can be true.

Forgive me if I start getting pissed.
I dont mean to offend.

That sentence is fucking retarded, and Im SO tired of everyone using it.

If you spend 20 days searching a room for a magical pink unicorn, and at the end of this time period, after covering every square inch of that room, no pink unicorn can be found...it is RETARDED to continue to assume that indeed, a magical pink unicorn is within the room.

That statement serves only to prove that people will convince themselves that something exists, when all other logic has failed.

People will insist that the unicorn is still there, even if the entire room has been searched top to bottom.

Grrr........

Sorry....moving on...

I love that you use a flawed analogy as proof. A more apt analogy would be in a box of an infinite number of marbles prove there are no black ones. Go ahead. I'll wait.

The room in your scenario is not limited so the 'entire room' will never be searched. In fact, the room is impossible for us to see either so we have no idea how much of the room we've searched.

There are lots of things that we believed we'd 'searched the entire room for' at many points in science and thus declare they were impossible or couldn't exist, etc. We've been wrong on that particular so often that you'd think people would stop making the claim.

As to the rest, you admit you're unwilling to consider what I say and instead must include what other people think and treat it like it's included in what I'm talking to you about. That's unfortunate and if you're simply going to talk past me, then I guess we'll choose to stop here. You can continue aggressive assaulting Christians verbally unabated and I will continue to enjoy the fruits of my labors. I hope that you are quite happy in your pursuits.

I love that you use a flawed analogy as proof. A more apt analogy would be in a box of an infinite number of marbles prove there are no black ones. Go ahead. I'll wait.

The room in your scenario is not limited so the 'entire room' will never be searched. In fact, the room is impossible for us to see either so we have no idea how much of the room we've searched.

There are lots of things that we believed we'd 'searched the entire room for' at many points in science and thus declare they were impossible or couldn't exist, etc. We've been wrong on that particular so often that you'd think people would stop making the claim.

A 'particle' smaller than an atom...

I wouldn't mind watching Jocabia since they're particularly good at certain arguments,
and of course i wouldn't mind seeing Whittier getting shanked a few times, but for some reason, as vitriolic as i may seem, i'm in the spiritually cathartic mood of late. *shrugs*
Actually, it'd be hard to pay attention to also, since i'm watching The Greatest American Hero where Ralph is being particularly evil with Pam after finding a new mind-control power when he was procuring a barrel of plutonium from some n'er-do-wells.

But, since you recommend it .... *bows*Ohhh... I remember that Episode... damn, now I have a greater desire to pick up those DVD's...

Erm... are you speaking in tongues?

What tounges?

You are indeed correct. :)

Okay, since you weren't cutting and running, I'm guessing you plan to go back in the thread to answer the questions I asked right before you didn't cut and run?

A 'particle' smaller than an atom...

Exactly. BWS reaches in there and grabs a handful and goes, see no black ones. Black ones don't exist It's proven and if you don't agree, you're deranged.

What tounges?

Tounges is one of the 7 spiritual gifts. It is nice to have but it is one of the lesser gifts.

You don't know what Speaking in Tongues is?

That kinda caught me off guard as well.

That kinda caught me off guard as well.
deleted mine because... well since I just got up, your response was better. :cool:

Now Christianity is an organisation?

IT IS ANCIENT.

ancient (nshnt)
1. Of great age; very old.
2. Of or relating to times long past, especially those of the historical period before the fall of the Western Roman Empire (A.D. 476).
3. Old-fashioned; antiquated.
4.Having the qualities associated with age, wisdom, or long use; venerable.
5. See synonyms at old.

Prove God is with you all the time. People leave the church because they LOSE FAITH which is no crime. If it is because of the "difficult practices" I would actually say it would be religion with more practices than meeting on Sundays, and only caring that day, except for the Catholics who are VERY thorough. To Athiests and people of other religions, your religion is a fary tale. Who said he was a true Christian? I believed he was an athiest, correct? Once again prove god is real. I see millions of Christians and still don't believe. I see a figure as powerful as the Pope, and still don't believe. I see a free bottle of 21 year old wine and still don't believe. I want to see these ancient miracles, walking on water, water to wine, one fish to thousands, one loaf of bread to hundreds. I DON'T SEE IT.

That's the challenge believing without actually seeing altough miracles do happen, thats also a major reason people seem to think we create fairy tales well I don't think that 1,000's of people would have died for fariy tales so honestly this fairy tale thing has to stop. I cannot understand you people. You ask more questions to be 100% sure, you know what the problem is, you can never be, 100% can only be achieved with faith, which so few seem to have. If you are going to eat for example you don't ask yourself questions but am i going to choke, am i going to have a stomach ache, if you want to believe in something you don't gather all the evidence that you are 100% sure, that is maths not belief and morality. If you come to that don't belief in anything because nothing is 100% sure NOTHING. I don't think that before you sleep you ask yourself but is someone going to kill me, an earthquake, hailstorm, i die, my wife leaves, my son dies, damnit you don't ask all these questions and still belief in other things, so it is apperant that most of you just simply don't want to belief however much evidence we try to show, like the miracles i said of the chaismas but it seems no one has come with a 'possible scientific explanation ala atheista' hmm?

Okay, since you weren't cutting and running, I'm guessing you plan to go back in the thread to answer the questions I asked right before you didn't cut and run?
may I inquire to this question? I may have missed it while catching up.

"Think it might be" is a postulate requiring empirical evidence or personal experience to confirm or deny.
What if we think it might be, but never get a confirmation or denial? We just go on thinking it might be until we die. Then it doesn't require anything of the sort.

"Believe" is a conclusion, of unshakable certainty, [usu.] independent of empirical evidence and almost solely based upon personal experience.

Neither is correct, both can be true.
What if we believe *because* we have empircal evidence, as in the case when we believe a friend will do something because they have done it before?

Tounges is one of the 7 spiritual gifts. It is nice to have but it is one of the lesser gifts.

So what is it?ie Give me a description of it please.(really not catching on here)

deleted mine because... well since I just got up, your response was better. :cool:

hehe. Its ok :)

So what is it?ie Give me a description of it please.(really not catching on here)
It just means that that particular post made no sense. It didn't make sense to me, either.

(I even looked up "inedity" in the dictionary and the closest I could find was "inedible".)

So what is it?ie Give me a description of it please.(really not catching on here)

I have to ask... you HAVE read the Bible, yes?


It was an on-topic way of saying... "I can't answer this, because I can't understand this"

So what is it?ie Give me a description of it please.(really not catching on here)

I do not know how to describe it for I do not have that spiritual gift. It is given soley by the Holy Spirit. However, it is one of the lesser spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit can give.

Jocabia, forgive me for quoting out of my study bible but it is the best way to answer the question.

According to my Study bible. "Speaking in toungues is a legitimate figt of the Spirit. The exercise of the figt demands some guidelines (can be found in 1 Corinthians 14) so that the purpose of the gift-to help the boyd of Christ-is not lost. If you have the gift, it is encouraged to follow the guidelines in 1 Corinthians 14. If you do not have the gift, DO NOT seek it.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067129&postcount=5798
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067258&postcount=5805
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11064274&postcount=5723

Here are just a couple of the dropped arguments, I am referring to.

Admittedly the last one is a bit harsh and I am CERTAINLY not suggesting Jesus was WRONG or LYING, but simply that Corny is by saying he 'changed his mind'.

I do not know how to describe it for I do not have that spiritual gift. It is given soley by the Holy Spirit. However, it is one of the lesser spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit can give.

Jocabia, forgive me for quoting out of my study bible but it is the best way to answer the question.

According to my Study bible. "Speaking in toungues is a legitimate figt of the Spirit. The exercise of the figt demands some guidelines (can be found in 1 Corinthians 14) so that the purpose of the gift-to help the boyd of Christ-is not lost. If you have the gift, it is encouraged to follow the guidelines in 1 Corinthians 14. If you do not have the gift, DO NOT seek it.

I don't think the study BIble is useless and never suggested it was. I said it was biased. Biased does not equal useless. And this post proves it.

So what is it?ie Give me a description of it please.(really not catching on here)
Speaking in Tongues (http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=393)

Here you go.

I don't think the study BIble is useless and never suggested it was. I said it was biased. Biased does not equal useless. And this post proves it.

Just the way it came across to me I guess. I'm sorry I got mad at ya Jocabia..

I have to ask... you HAVE read the Bible, yes?


It was an on-topic way of saying... "I can't answer this, because I can't understand this"

Yes, its like saying " You are so difficult to convince, that I am running out of things to say, because you want to be pretty sure that God does exist, do you now?

And yes I have read the Bible, But I am Roman Catholic so there are some things that we belief differnt than from what is taught in where you live.

Yes, its like saying " You are so difficult to convince, that I am running out of things to say, because you want to be pretty sure that God does exist, do you now?

And yes I have read the Bible, But I am Roman Catholic so there are some things that we belief differnt than from what is taught in where you live.

So I take it you never read 1 Corinthians 12 nor 1 Corinthians 14?

No I don't have any charismas.

43.) ARGUMENT FROM SPEAKING IN TONGUES
(1) See that person spazzing on the church floor babbling incoherently?
(2) That's how infinite wisdom reveals itself.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

www.godlessgeeks.com

No I don't have any charismas.

There's a difference between Tongues and Charismas.

So I take it you never read 1 Corinthians 12 nor 1 Corinthians 14?

Unlike you my friend we do not base everything on the Bible, if you want to know I have not read them wholly, but that is another argument Roman Catholic vs . Protestants.

Yes, Me.

Unlike you my friend we do not base everything on the Bible, if you want to know I have not read them wholly, but that is another argument Roman Catholic vs . Protestants.

The Catholic Faith always does leave out the obvious.

*note* before you go off on me..I will tell you that most of my dad's side of the house is Catholic.

You are talking to me like an adult when in fact I am only 15 years old, you know so don't expect me to know everything.

You are talking to me like an adult when in fact I am only 15 years old, you know so don't expect me to know everything.

And you shouldn't be talked to like an adult? You want us to talk to you like a child?

The Catholic Faith always does leave out the obvious.
I have to agree: Paul was kind of obvious. :D

I have to agree: Paul was kind of obvious. :D

Yep and Peter was indirect in what he was talking about whereas Paul was to the point.

Yes, its like saying " You are so difficult to convince, that I am running out of things to say, because you want to be pretty sure that God does exist, do you now?


Didn't really understand that, either... I think you are saying I dropped the argument because I couldn't think of a way to respond...

(I'm pretty sure that there are a number of posters in this thread alone, that could tell you they only WISH I was that easy to shut up...)

The truth is - I couldn't put together enough of an argument in your post, to work out WHAT I would be responding to. I'm sorry, it is not meant to be insulting... I just think you are maybe typing more quickly than your coherency requires.


And yes I have read the Bible, But I am Roman Catholic so there are some things that we belief differnt than from what is taught in where you live.

From what I recall - the Catholic version of the Bible has MORE scripture, not less...

Just the way it came across to me I guess. I'm sorry I got mad at ya Jocabia..

I am critical of the work of man, not the work of God. I believe a healthy skepticism is a gift God gave me. My mother would say it's a curse, but that's another matter entirely.

The Catholic Faith always does leave out the obvious.

*note* before you go off on me..I will tell you that most of my dad's side of the house is Catholic.

(Mine too).

I am critical of the work of man, not the work of God. I believe a healthy skepticism is a gift God gave me. My mother would say it's a curse, but that's another matter entirely.

Well I thought I just apologize to you.

What if we think it might be, but never get a confirmation or denial? We just go on thinking it might be until we die. Then it doesn't require anything of the sort.

Then you still "think it might be", but have neither confirmed nor denied it. Empirical evidence or personal experience are required to confirm or deny it, not to continue "thinking it might be", that's the result of ambiguous evidence or intellectual laziness.

What if we believe *because* we have empircal evidence, as in the case when we believe a friend will do something because they have done it before?

Your example is of a tendency to. Human behaviour can never be certainly predicted and personal experience is not empirical evidence. It cannot be objectively measured but is rather known via our sensory faculties and organized according to our personal biases.

(Mine too).

Maybe you are a puppet of me. My matralineal line is Jewish. My father's line is Catholic for a long way. My ethnicity is Nordic. I'm close in height, weight and description to you. Are you my 'evil' twin? Jocabia, the Atheist version. Only one way to tell. Do you have a goatee?

You are talking to me like an adult when in fact I am only 15 years old, you know so don't expect me to know everything.

1) We have no way of knowing HOW old any poster is, unless they specifically say. And, even then... they might not be...

2) I address everyone as being a poster, not a representative of an 'age'.

3) I don't know how many of the posters online right now remember "Suicidal Librarians", but she was an excellent poster, with some very valuable insights, a good reasoning mind, and a clear way of communicating it. I later found out, she was 13. Age just isn't always a factor.

(Mine too).

I don't mind it really. I even enjoyed the father at the church that my grandfather attended before he died. However, it just seems to me that 1) they have to many rules and 2) you go to hell if you don't go to church.

Well I thought I just apologize to you.

Well, I appreciate it and it's respectable, but it's not really necessary. I did not intend to ignore it. And some of my posts were harsh which is why when I linked them to get answers, I qualified my point. Saying you're wrong is not a big deal. Suggesting that Jesus was wrong or lying or that you actually believe He was wrong or lying is pretty harsh. My intent was to show how what you say is not consistent with an omnipotent God. I'd really like for you to reply to that post.

Maybe you are a puppet of me. My matralineal line is Jewish. My father's line is Catholic for a long way. My ethnicity is Nordic. I'm close in height, weight and description to you. Are you my 'evil' twin? Jocabia, the Atheist version. Only one way to tell. Do you have a goatee?

No goatee... a full beard though, and it has occassionally been a goatee.

Is this a South Park reference... :)

Maybe I really am a puppet, after all.... :D

Maybe you are a puppet of me. My matralineal line is Jewish. My father's line is Catholic for a long way. My ethnicity is Nordic. I'm close in height, weight and description to you. Are you my 'evil' twin? Jocabia, the Atheist version. Only one way to tell. Do you have a goatee?wait...we have two vikings?


*flees in terror*

I don't mind it really. I even enjoyed the father at the church that my grandfather attended before he died. However, it just seems to me that 1) they have to many rules and 2) you go to hell if you don't go to church.

Well, yes... those tend to be my complaints against ALL organised religions though, so I can see where you are coming from.

I'm just sick that my sister got my dad's Catholic Bible when he died... I really wanted that book... :(

wait...we have two vikings?


*flees in terror*

No... wait! We were going to get drunk and pillage people later, don't go!

Well, yes... those tend to be my complaints against ALL organised religions though, so I can see where you are coming from.

I'm just sick that my sister got my dad's Catholic Bible when he died... I really wanted that book... :(

I'm sorry :(

I'm just glad my church (as far as I know that is) doesn't think that if you don't go to church, you go to hell.

No goatee... a full beard though, and it has occassionally been a goatee.

Is this a South Park reference... :)

Maybe I really am a puppet, after all.... :D

South Park? I keep forgetting you're a durn forinner. Every seventies television show at some point had a 'evil' twin show up with a goatee and, if the original had blond hair, dark hair. Apparently, goatees are the clearest sign of an evil twin.

Plus, you have an English accent so that helps with your evilness as well. Now, unfortunately yours isn't that smooth, snobby accent, but we can work with it.

Then you still "think it might be", but have neither confirmed nor denied it. Empirical evidence or personal experience are required to confirm or deny it, not to continue "thinking it might be", that's the result of ambiguous evidence or intellectual laziness.


Your example is of a tendency to. Human behaviour can never be certainly predicted and personal experience is not empirical evidence. It cannot be objectively measured but is rather known via our sensory faculties and organized according to our personal biases.
But then you are no longer distinguishing between "think it might be" and "believe".

Observation of behaviour in others is empirical evidence. It can be objectively measured, such as repetition of events.

And yes, personal experience is empirical (by definition). It is not necessarily objective.

Thanks.

While I cannot answer for all Christians, I can give my views on these.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067129&postcount=5798I find no joy in saying "[insert name] is going to Hell" for that is placing judgement on someone. A Judgement that is not my place to give. I can say [Insert Name] may be wrong, but I don't and won't condemn anyone to eternal torment. thus, I find no joy in such declarations.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11067258&postcount=5805this depends alot on the church. I've attened many churches and some are fun (singing praises) others are... not so fun (nothing but sermons) and I even encountered the "Fire and Brimstone" one where all they preach is the evil of sin and the path to eternal damnation. (you can bet I stopped going there after a couple of sermons.) for me, I have Faith in God because He was there for me. He offers advice and nudges me in the appropriate direction, and he never gives up on me, even when I don't listen or when I ignore Him. I don't worship him for the reward, nor do I do so to avoid punnishment. I do so because I want to do so.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11064274&postcount=5723for me, I believe that Jesus was slowly opening the minds of his disciples, slowly weeding away their racial prejudices, so that they would think of everyone as being God's people. that's why he started narrow and slowly expanded to include others. Remember his last covenent was to preach to all Nations a radical change from when he first started.

Here are just a couple of the dropped arguments, I am referring to.

Admittedly the last one is a bit harsh and I am CERTAINLY not suggesting Jesus was WRONG or LYING, but simply that Corny is by saying he 'changed his mind'. Well, I won't say that Jesus cannot change his mind... :D

No... wait! We were going to get drunk and pillage people later, don't go!
getting drunk?! Pillaging?!


I'm there.

I'm sorry :(

I'm just glad my church (as far as I know that is) doesn't think that if you don't go to church, you go to hell.

Yeah, I'm sorry, too... it had gold-edged pages, and everything...

;)

My big problem with any church, is that it is formalisation of something that I don't think NEEDS formalising. To me - religion should be about a personal relationship between man believer and 'god'... and, I think that is the core message of the New Testament as well.

Of course - on the other hand, I can't condemn it TOO much, because we wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame Cathedral, etc... without 'organised' religions...

South Park? I keep forgetting you're a durn forinner. Every seventies television show at some point had a 'evil' twin show up with a goatee and, if the original had blond hair, dark hair. Apparently, goatees are the clearest sign of an evil twin.

Plus, you have an English accent so that helps with your evilness as well. Now, unfortunately yours isn't that smooth, snobby accent, but we can work with it.

Ah - I know whereof you speak... although by the time I got into American 'culture', all you needed to be the 'bad guy' was the black clothing and the fake british accent... so... mid to late eighties?

Yeah, I'm sorry, too... it had gold-edged pages, and everything...

;)

My big problem with any church, is that it is formalisation of something that I don't think NEEDS formalising. To me - religion should be about a personal relationship between man believer and 'god'... and, I think that is the core message of the New Testament as well.

Of course - on the other hand, I can't condemn it TOO much, because we wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame Cathedral, etc... without 'organised' religions...
ah yes...the path of organized religion...

starts with a good idea, moves to a church, which moves to a heirarchy, which moves to an institution, which moves to a machine.

I find it interesting that the Catholic church still dresses in the costume of the Roman empire. It kinda screams "Look at all this flair! Ohh! Shiny objects! pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

wait...we have two vikings?


*flees in terror*

Amusingly, we are two of Nordland's biggest detractors. He thinks we want to make ourselves go extinct, I suppose.

And, yes, I'm a full-out viking. Blond hair. Blue eyes. Tall. Broad shoulders. When I fight I go into a full beserker rage. I've been hit with bats, pipes and bottles without the slightest wane in my aggression (I used to be very aggressive. I'm MUCH better now *tribute to John Astin on Night Court*). Now, some of those resulted in a trip to the hospital, but until I'd calmed down from a rage I was virtually invulnerable. To my credit, people who didn't know me then, find this all very hard to believe. I am thankful for that.

And I fell out of a five-ton truck onto my head and broke my neck and jumped up laughing. I wasn't even sure I'd broken for quite a while afterwards.

I've made my own chainmail armor by hand. It took around three work weeks (over 100 hours).

My grandfather was the first born here.

Let's see, what else? I think that's it.

Yeah, I'm sorry, too... it had gold-edged pages, and everything...

;)

My big problem with any church, is that it is formalisation of something that I don't think NEEDS formalising. To me - religion should be about a personal relationship between man believer and 'god'... and, I think that is the core message of the New Testament as well.

Of course - on the other hand, I can't condemn it TOO much, because we wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame Cathedral, etc... without 'organised' religions...

Ya know, you do bring up a very valid point here. In some ways, I agree with you in regards to the New testiment but there is also nothing in there about not having an organized religion so we can go back and forth on that but I can agree with you about a personal relationship, with both God and Jesus.

getting drunk?! Pillaging?!


I'm there.

First-ever-Viking-war-party-recruitment-drive-in-a-Christian-theology-discussion....

Best. Hijack. Ever.

Amusingly, we are two of Nordland's biggest detractors. He thinks we want to make ourselves go extinct, I suppose.

And, yes, I'm a full-out viking. Blond hair. Blue eyes. Tall. Broad shoulders. When I fight I go into a full beserker rage. I've been hit with bats, pipes and bottles without the slightest wane in my aggression (I used to be very aggressive. I'm MUCH better now *tribute to John Astin on Night Court*). Now, some of those resulted in a trip to the hospital, but until I'd calmed down from a rage I was virtually invulnerable. To my credit, people who didn't know me then, find this all very hard to believe. I am thankful for that.

And I fell out of a five-ton truck onto my head and broke my neck and jumped up laughing. I wasn't even sure I'd broken for quite a while afterwards.

I've made my own chainmail armor by hand. It took around three work weeks (over 100 hours).

My grandfather was the first born here.

Let's see, what else? I think that's it.

Your grandfathers name wasn't Thor by any chance, was it?

also, remind me to never get you mad...or, if I do, give me a head start.

Thanks.

While I cannot answer for all Christians, I can give my views on these.
I find no joy in saying "[insert name] is going to Hell" for that is placing judgement on someone. A Judgement that is not my place to give. I can say [Insert Name] may be wrong, but I don't and won't condemn anyone to eternal torment. thus, I find no joy in such declarations.

That one was unique to Corny. He, seemingly happily, declared GnI is going to hell.

this depends alot on the church. I've attened many churches and some are fun (singing praises) others are... not so fun (nothing but sermons) and I even encountered the "Fire and Brimstone" one where all they preach is the evil of sin and the path to eternal damnation. (you can bet I stopped going there after a couple of sermons.) for me, I have Faith in God because He was there for me. He offers advice and nudges me in the appropriate direction, and he never gives up on me, even when I don't listen or when I ignore Him. I don't worship him for the reward, nor do I do so to avoid punnishment. I do so because I want to do so.

Doesn't answer the question. Would you go to Hell if that was what Faith required of you?

for me, I believe that Jesus was slowly opening the minds of his disciples, slowly weeding away their racial prejudices, so that they would think of everyone as being God's people. that's why he started narrow and slowly expanded to include others. Remember his last covenent was to preach to all Nations a radical change from when he first started.

Well, I won't say that Jesus cannot change his mind... :D
Yes, well, there is much question about that last covenent, in fact. However, I find it hard to believe that in a slow effort to change the minds of the disciples he lied "I come only to the lost sheep of Israel" or that he, in trying to expand them away from such prejudices, refers to Gentiles by slurs.

This is the JuNii I know and love. Glad to have you back.

ah yes...the path of organized religion...

starts with a good idea, moves to a church, which moves to a heirarchy, which moves to an institution, which moves to a machine.

I find it interesting that the Catholic church still dresses in the costume of the Roman empire. It kinda screams "Look at all this flair! Ohh! Shiny objects! pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

Whereas, of course... you would have thought the 'man behind the curtain' was SUPPOSED to be the whole show...

This: "starts with a good idea, moves to a church, which moves to a heirarchy, which moves to an institution, which moves to a machine." is gold.

The problem I see, is that it seems that when you formalise anything, someone gets to make decisions... and that means power - power over others. And we all know power corrupts.

Ya know, you do bring up a very valid point here. In some ways, I agree with you in regards to the New testiment but there is also nothing in there about not having an organized religion so we can go back and forth on that but I can agree with you about a personal relationship, with both God and Jesus.Interestingly enough, in the Gnostic gospels, there is information against a church...lemme go dig out my copy.


from the Gospel of Thomas
Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there.

Interestingly, biblical scholars say Gospel of Thomas is the actual words of Jesus. the Catholic church says "Nah nah nah, I'm not listening"



edit: w00t 6000! (sorry. I'll stop:p )