NationStates Jolt Archive

just on the map thing, i am currently trying to concor the rest of OZ, and am setting up a lot of coloneys all over the pacific.

Ok to balance things out I thought up this idea.

Because really I could say "My armies are invading most of Russia, will be done within a few months and then my population will have tripled etc."

So to make this less of a problem, we should have rebellions.

For example for Philanchez, his neighbours who he just invaded were like crappy and way behind times.

Well now they have fought Philanchez and lost, but those peoples are probably still bitter and want freedom. Also seeing as they were all different tribes before, now theres a good chance they have been united to a certain extent.

They also have access to the new technology Philanchez used to invade them.

Now every Empire has rebellions. It just happens. So we should start RPing these rebellions (particularly for the Han Empire), giving control to other RPers.

This also acts as deterant to invasions.

What you think?

And Aust dont you think thats a bad idea when an invasion force is coming?

And Aust dont you think thats a bad idea when an invasion force is coming?
Yes, but the expansion has been going on for decades, and it takes a long time for news to travell. I have withdrawn all my invading forces but that dosn't stop me from attempting to take over through other means.


Theres more ways to invade than one.

Ok to balance things out I thought up this idea.

Because really I could say "My armies are invading most of Russia, will be done within a few months and then my population will have tripled etc."

So to make this less of a problem, we should have rebellions.

For example for Philanchez, his neighbours who he just invaded were like crappy and way behind times.

Well now they have fought Philanchez and lost, but those peoples are probably still bitter and want freedom. Also seeing as they were all different tribes before, now theres a good chance they have been united to a certain extent.

They also have access to the new technology Philanchez used to invade them.

Now every Empire has rebellions. It just happens. So we should start RPing these rebellions (particularly for the Han Empire), giving control to other RPers.

This also acts as deterant to invasions.

What you think?

Interesting...but should I explain my inter-provincial period government? Cuz if you know anything about the Chinese, its that they do things slowly and thorough...so most opposition was either defeated in the first invasion or else grinded down by occupying troops afterwards...and my commissariat is even more brutal.

Obviously If you have a good system at keeping down rebellions, then fair enough. Of course most good systems require more money and men, and if you have to pull any of these things away for any reason, then a rebellion will spring up twice as fast.

the presence of the the supply base on the northern Philipino island is just that. a supply base.

they haven't taken over the island yet and with the way things are going they're not likely to until the invasion is over one way or another.

holding land is aways harder than conquering it and you'll always need strong garrison forces to even hold it nevermind fight off other agressors.

Aust, what Pacific colonies do you have? It seems like most of the island chains are owned by me or Angermanland.

I have a fair amount of territory, but none of it is really that major- I mean, with my navy I can isolate any island on which there is a rebellion which is pretty effective.

Obviously If you have a good system at keeping down rebellions, then fair enough. Of course most good systems require more money and men, and if you have to pull any of these things away for any reason, then a rebellion will spring up twice as fast.

The gold and silver mines in my empire keep me well supplied and able to keep such places under control. Not to mention that I'll soon be expanding my military to compensate. Probably have to activate some of my provincial armies to help as well...

Aust, what Pacific colonies do you have? It seems like most of the island chains are owned by me or Angermanland.

I have a fair amount of territory, but none of it is really that major- I mean, with my navy I can isolate any island on which there is a rebellion which is pretty effective.


humm.. it occurs to me that it would be hard to tell your islands from mine. i've been working on the assumption taht the stuff on the right hand side of the map is mine, and the stuff on the left is yours. but... i don't know.. do you have a claime on any of the ones to the east of the "great arc" that runs from southern NZ to terror? i don't know, our colours are just a bit simmilar.

and i think Aust's only coloneys are those ones that almost chop terror in half. but of course, i could be wrong.

Those islands that ISTR were promised to me as part of the price for allying with Aust...though I guess for convenience we don't mess about with jurisdictions until after the war.
I think the Northern allies have been being very bullish about their prospects in this war; I think that may be more for diplomatic purposes in trying to prevent anyone else joining our side. I don't think enough info is on the table to put together an Order of Battle for each side, but I would reckon forces involved are roughly equal, and so distance is likely to be a deciding factor. Boring, but true.

(After all, Frozo, you've claimed to be able to deploy 400,000 troops max, leaving 60,000 at home, and have sent 90,000 to Aust. Not unreasonable that they can deploy almost as many professionals per head as your total, which IIRC would give them over 200,000 professional soldiers. Not including any militia, allied forces, etc.)

Oh yeah, and I'm up for people being able to RP rebellions in others' territory. Obviously, you have to negotiate with them as to the scale and organisation of the rebellion*, but after that it's just see how it goes.

*Unreasonable to say you can turn round and have a couple of million rebels in one of Oda's core provinces when he's looking like going to war, just for example. But they have to justify a refusal. And, obviously, the more internal stability forces a nation specifies they have, the more you take that into account for what they can deploy externally.

I promise this is my last consecutive post cos of stuff I forgot....:headbang:

Kilani, I've been a bit cheeky and asked for colonies on 'your' continent. If you're dead-set against it, that's not a major problem, but I would appreciate unopposed access to virgin land not too far from home that carries trading possibilities.

heh.. you can add to that the following bits of info about Angermanland's miliatary[only avialable ooc to Anyone, at this point]: the Princes Guard [proffesionals] number roughly 1000, so you'll proiblby only ever see 500 of them, and due to constant training by most members of society in their off times [crazy stuff happens all over the show, it's a messed up system :)] most of the adult male population Can be considered capable fighters, though totaly untrained as soldiers. makes it easyer to mobalize troops, because all i need is to drill them into their units. yeah.. so call it another 10,000 men easy to hand as decently trained, low/no experiance troops. on the other hand, the guard tend to get mixed into their units as officers and sargents, which helps somewhat. in a defencive battle on my own land i can raise vertually every male [and some female, in some cases] citizen i can arm as malitia too.

bear in mind, however, this still doesn't ammount to alot and my transport fleet as yet allows for a grand total of roughly 5400 men to be transported accross the ocean. and that's only once i finish and recal ALL my masters. i can send far more, but they'd be at sea for over a month to get from teh capital to terror, longer to get to Aust.

terror, my friend, this is why we have the edit button :)

The reason I have such a large army though, is my general lack of farmers and my militaristic attitude. (I have sent 60,000 to Aust BTW, although 30,000 may join them later).

Theres not enough food in Frozopia, and trade is limited in these times so if a young man wants to earn money or food he joins a Lord's force. I do 100's of raids a year all across the Pacific, generally imitating pirates, so as to grab food and slaves.

I'd be surprised if the Austians had a simialar policy.

Meh. They're defensive though. Well, anyways. Fair fight, or thereabouts, is how I call it. And unless you succeed fast, attrition will work against you.

Edit button?!? Pah! It's for wussies *searches brain for last time used edit button* well, except on days ending in a 'y'.

Oh yeah, Caladonn, can we finish up negotiations soonish, cos I got a Frozo delegation waiting outside the door.

True but I hope to put my cavalry and longbows to good use, no matter the conditions.

People keep moaning about the threads. Well, I'm reasonably sure that I have a subscription to every thread in this RP. So, here they are. I make it 17, including this one. If I've missed any, please tell me. Some haven't been moving for a couple of weeks, they may be dead.

This thread. May seem pointless, but, for completeness... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=462780&page=52)

Angermanland's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=465079)

Kilani's thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469155)

Caladonn's thread. Gotta love it. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=463629)

Toop's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=468047)

Aust's general sort of thread (not directly invasion) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=464780)

Oda's invasion of India. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469120)

The Aust Invasion thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467366)

Ostia's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469057)

Zanarkaand's Ronso thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=468984)

Kirisubo's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=462807)

My thread. Terror Incognitia, I love you:fluffle: (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469653)

Oda's main 'Rise of the Empire' thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=467592)

Hyr's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469168)

Spizania's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469128)

Kiri's OOC thread. Semi-dead, seemingly. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=463732)

Philanchez's thread. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=466894)

Do you think I can get away with negotiating with Frozo while (RL at least) I'm still negotiating with Cala? Flexible time and that, yeah, just would seem odd to be talking to two people at once...

My thread isnt in it, its hasnt been updated since OnN was away

My thread isnt in it, its hasnt been updated since OnN was away

I'm still kinda waiting for you to invite my cavalry captain to talk with your general dude...

OOC: It doesnt really matter when your typing it in English you know, because your troops probably didnt speak English....
TAG from Frozopia

Well in French it would be 'Lache' instead of 'Feu'
or in German the word 'loses' would be used instead of 'Feuer'
And I'm thinking that when your people speak Frozopian there would be a difference between loose and fire in that language too.

Meh different cultures etc. Could say "BALLS!" when you want your troops to fire.

lmao, thats funny. Anywho, I got a reference page for anyone interested and to add to the ever-growing list of threads:

The Empire of Han (Referance Page, PT) (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470954)
(http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470954)

humm.. it occurs to me that it would be hard to tell your islands from mine. i've been working on the assumption taht the stuff on the right hand side of the map is mine, and the stuff on the left is yours. but... i don't know.. do you have a claime on any of the ones to the east of the "great arc" that runs from southern NZ to terror? i don't know, our colours are just a bit simmilar.

and i think Aust's only coloneys are those ones that almost chop terror in half. but of course, i could be wrong.
Yes, it is a little hard to tell them apart. Your assumption is basically correct, but I do own the islands to the north of the crescent you're talking about.

However, it is pretty confusing... with the coloring it almost looks as if I should own the one small island east of New Zealand, but that's pretty ridiculous.

I do have a viable solution to this... I would be willing to purchase the extra-New Zealand territories you own, for a large sum, as well as possibly naval technology and/or entrance into the Aust-Frozopia War on your side. It would provide me with easy trade access to the entire lower Pacific, while it benefits you very little considering they're not very important.

I've now decided I'll probably join the Aust-Frozopia War, but on what side is yet to be determined... if Angermanland doesn't agree to this trade then I'll probably join the Frozopians, since I stand to gain far more. But if Angermanland does agree, then I'll be getting essentially what I'd want from the war anyway, and I would be happy to join on the other side.

Join Frozopia. You could gain alot!

To make things less confusing between Cal & Anger, I have taken away some of the dividers in the islands, and merged them so the colors come out better. Cal has that one chain of islands just north of NZ.

I have solidified Australia as a single color due to Aust's eventual conquer of it.

In the Middle East, I have given that one strip of land Tadj's color, but have kep the border just so ppl know that the area is still being conquered.

That area in North West Africa that has the purple is still being conquered by me, but to keep ppl from being confused, I kept it the normal gray, and just put a purple stripe down it to show it as mine.

I need to know whose territory that really light blue is on the tip of Africa under Qarez, otherwise I'm going to take it off of the map.

Also, to make things more fair, I think that if: Rodenka, Qarez, Nevus, Nuralla, Spizania, Antanjyl, Warshrike, and The Scandinvans are not active, that their lands should be forfeited, and become NPC territory again.

And after all that, the updated:

MAP!!!!! (http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8477/untitled12ca.png)

...I do have a viable solution to this... I would be willing to purchase the extra-New Zealand territories you own, for a large sum, as well as possibly naval technology and/or entrance into the Aust-Frozopia War on your side. It would provide me with easy trade access to the entire lower Pacific, while it benefits you very little considering they're not very important....


well, i'm pretty keen on keeping the creasent, and i think that one off to the east might BE part of NZ.. i'll be perfectly happy to sell you the rest [ie the chain headed off to the north east of NZ. it was given to me half by mistake anyway :)] and work out some sort of deal reguarding use of the creasent it's self, depending on what you use it For. heck, depending on how you go about it, your interests in the creasent, if it's still under my control, could well get you a representive In my government, rather than just an ambasador. possibly more, depending how things shook out. anyway. make contact, we'll work it out IC :)

If at all possible, I'd like to offer a non-aggresion pact with the Anti-Aust alliance boys. I won't interfer with your invasion or hinder your fleets in anyway, heck you can even stop and resupply in some of my ports so long as you pay. And even if I have an alliance with Aust and his allies, those have not been solidified and are still open to how they will turn out. So don't worry about that. And if we do sign a non-aggression the most aid I would send to aust would be in monies, which wouldn't be much since money can only buy you so much.

This way it keeps me from getting into the fight and you guys can have your little war. ;)

Deal?

admit it, oda, you're just worryed we'd all gang up on you if you were a threat :P

meanwhile, i Really need you to make some posts in my thread as fast as possible, as it can't really move untill you do. again. despite working around the previous stopage.

Oda I neeed a reply, and please don't do that. Please.

Caldoon, trust me you stand to earn far more by joining Aust.

both Calladonn AND Oda stand far more to gain from terror continueing to exist, as do i, than from you doing so, sadly Aust. infact, they have little care for me to live or die as a nation. calladonn could even gain greater benifit from conquireing me, Eventaully. not yet though. infact, even Frozopia would have more interest, logicly, in haveing terror around than crushing it, if it weren't blocking access to Aust. the real worry, for All of us in the pacific, is actually either the Han or Aust geting expansionist. then we're ALL in a deep hole. admitadly Aust would need to drag up it's tech level a bit, but contact with terror should do that, and is a bit busy for the moment. but it's a worry.

now, realise, this is just me, not my nation, talking at this point, because my nation barely knows anyone exists yet.

now, Ideally, [and this is totaly OOC theoriseing and hypothetical] Terror, Caladonn, Angermanland, and any and all other island nations in range, should join in that war, on which ever side, studiously avoid fighting each other, and at the perfect moment turn on their "allies" and enemys alike, joinging togeather to both devide up Aust, and perhaps stomp on Frozopia, if they were not part of it.

more as it comes to me.
treason and traterousness abounds as each looks to their own interest
:)

Edit: this means, incidently Aust, that you chose your allies well, or they chose poorly. so long as they continue to see it as being in their best itnerest.

when it comes to the war, as it stands currently, Calladonn's best bet would be to wait around untill the north is weakend, then strike there, rather than getting involved in the southern brawl, assumeing they have the tech and knowledge required, which they could get from terror, i suspect. makeing them allies with Aust by fate, rather than co-operation.

as i said befor, Frozopia's best bet, if Aust is their goal and Terror would oppose them, is to Crush terror, and then re-orginize themselves. by which time Aust would have had to have stood down from maximum combat redieness or have rubbish troops, or would have been fighting that Ostian invasian force for some time, dragging them out of position and so on.

alternativly, if they set their sights on nearly anything else, or terror shifts alegiance to be more vareable to them, then it would Definatly be in their best interests to keep them around.

if the Han could gather a large enough navey, a sweeping attack down from the north through kurisubo. it would be... significant. while not directly relaited, it would pose a significant threat to both Terror AND frozopia, if sucessful, and would gain the han all of japan. if Han then entered on the side of Aust, the supply lines of the invasion force would be cut, cut, and cut again. if it entered on the OTHER side, it gives the aliance a much more seccure supply line, not to mention the ability to ship their supplys a long way over land, somewhat increaseing the time taken for them to travel, but VASTLY reduceing the danger of raids. bearing in mind, that that southern push would have to include the unclaimed islands along the rout.

now, Kilani, and for that matter, Hyr and Zanarkand, had they a navel force, could do some interesting stuff on either side. Zanarkand is only really an issue if they join on the oposite side from caladonn, but hyr, if it got it's act togeather and got agressive, could cause me issues with ease, at the right time of year while kilani's unclaimed [paritailly uncontroled?] north would give the Ostians a very nice jumpin off point, the han a nice supply rout into aust bypassing terror, or the Austian Aliance a more secure west flank, possibly allowing for the distruction of the Ostians at sea, espceially if the han co-operated...

so meny interesting options, no?

on another note: is it just me or does terror seem to be awfully lucky when it comes to meeting rulers at docks? ..... or was someone copying me? :P i certianly hadn't seen it happen befor i did it.

edit: dang, my last post is getting long. next round of analisis can have a new one. i may be working from a map one round out of date.

Ive not been posting recently because ive been on holiday, and im going to wait for a new round of RPs to start because i dont like joining RPs half way through, maybe someone could attack me?

Sounds good to me Han Empire. I dont know what your view is on slaves, but we could do some exchanges in that market also. We could shortcut this Icily because I have a diplomat in one of your cities somewhere. That would speed things along.

And we aint gonna take out Terror. Just force his navy into a stand still, maybe agree a peace treaty once we are successful.

If that seems to be impossible (preferedly before our navy is completely demolished), we will have to land there and crush them.

By the way if it seems the Invasion thread is stagnating, it is purely because I am waiting for my talks with Terror to end.

I wish someone would invade Frozopia, or try. If I ever attacked the Han Empire, I would draw them into a offensive on Frozopia. On home turf I reckon frozopia's pretty invinsible. Of course other than that, there is no reason for anyone to invade Frozopia (damn crappy country).

Froz, if you look to your east aways, you'll find one that's probilby not much butter. and to your west. but yeah, the only real reason to invade you is to get rid of you. i think i accidently refured to you rather than kirisubo a couple of times in my analasis, sadly. sorry about that.

no worries Terror Icognitia :D
Kidding.

aint gonna take out Terror

Music to my ears :D

Now seriously, in response to Angermanland's analysis:

My long term interest is in no one power dominating the Western Pacific. At the moment, I see that as lying in defending Aust, cos if they were conquered, then I would be threatened from North and South by Frozo and Kiri and Ostia. However, with Aust's current actions in Kilani (blaming raiding attacks on me) I have little trust in their 'honour', and as long as it doesn't end in them utterly conquered (puppet state or conflict zone is _fine_) I'm not really bothered about Aust.
Obviously, I don't want too much of a rep for dishonesty, but I don't think I can over-emphasise how much this has pissed me off, smirching my good name with a nation I was doing well with, and which was willing to send troops to aid us in the war. So if the right deal is on offer, all bets are off on which way I jump. (Obviously all this is totally OOC.)

sadly, the patterns on the maps actually make allying with terror more significant to me than Aust, with the mid to southern americas and perhaps the Han being next most important. so yeah, if Terror jumps on the anit-aust band wagon, AND My Guys Know About It, i'll be pursueing other interests. a nutral stance will result in me binding my fate closer to terrors, and things going on as they are.. well... they'll go on as they are. this info is strictly OOC for the moment, of course.

I thought that was poor show by Aust, but then in RPing everything always go crazy.
Hell I would probably stop to invasion of aust upto the point when they are stuck in Tasmania. Anything further could be madness.

Not said I'm jumping yet. However...I'm reconsidering my interests. Leave it at that. Especially the fact that at least two, possibly three major projects have been put on hold indefinitely while I prepared for facing the invasion fleet.

EDIT: Plus, thinking about how my nation would view it (assuming they found out); it would be seen as treachery, tantamount to breach of the alliance.

heh.. mine would probibly just see it as perfectly normal, IF they could see what Aust was gaining by it. on the other hand, they wouldn't be inclined to be at all supportive if they didn't. especially if it didn't help them. on the other hand, what they think on that level doesn't matter to much yet, and probilby won't for quite some time.

Indeedy. So, just to re-emphasise, while the status quo has its attractions, as far as Terror Incognitia's diplomatic alignment is concerned, the game is wide open. (BTW, I have Caladonnian and Frozopian delegations in my capital right now. So negotiations with them will take immediate effect on government policy, whereas negotiations with anyone else, word has to get to Nescia, it has to be ratified, and then policy decreed.)

umm.. just a planning thought, but, we really need to start time stamping events, and need travel times, in some standard unit, between various capitals. marked on the maps for preferance, but at least listed.

harvest seasons, weather parterns, amount of preperation time, transit time, all of these matter. so far i've been makeing decisions fairly arbritrarly in my own thread, but when these all eventually cross into each other, the same amount of time needs to have passed for all concerned from when that thread started.


My story starts, roughly, upon the colonization of the cresent, coming into contact with Terror's inhabitad island, though not officially, so we know there are others out there, and the dispatch of trader/explorer types, headed to their capital. odd weather conditions, frozopian [i think] raiders, and a reef resulted in them ending up in the capital of Aust instead. that's where stuff involving me starts. stuff actually IN my thread starts about 1 month after their diparture, Proibibly about midway through their stay in Aust.

now, that puts Aust's thread as lagging behind mine for the moment, but mine has covered only a day so far. at most.

with that in mind, let the debate over the month/season/year begin :)

Season: when do the invasion fleet aim to arrive? Then if we work back something rough from there to where the whole thing kicked off, that'll give a timescale.
Year: unless we use AD as a guideline figure, may as well start from 0, start of the RP.
Month: fairly arbitrary, and follows to an extent from the season.

My suggestion is the whole thing to have kicked off in Spring Year 0. Seems neat. And us then to be in something like late-Spring Year 2 (for where the invasion fleet is now.) All other threads to work around that. And any inconsistency to be skated over by mutual agreement:fluffle: otherwise we'll be perpetually :headbang: over what happened when, and not adding new events to argue over :D

spring north or spring south? and forget months actually. my nation has an odd method of counting them, includeing days that don't Have months, amoung other odditys.

edit: i'm not quite sure that where you want to put year zero is the best moment, as well all have events prior to that [i hope] And no mutually significant reason to mark Anything as zero.

on all other counts, that sounds right.

I'm thinking we could start the rp at year 1450, Spring, and use the Gregorian calender to keep the time. That is about as where everyone is on the tech scale. That way everything works out...

I can come up with travel times between locations, via sea travel. I did the same thing for an rp I had started running like two months ago.

that'd be Very good i fyou could od that oda :) thanks :)

How about Japan to horth east Australia Oda?

Hmm... I dunno... at the moment it seems like it'd be in my best interest to side with Frozopia. I mean, the last amount of expansion I'd like in the Pacific is the islands north of Angermanland, but he won't sell them, so that doesn't really leave me with any option but to attack them.

Heh, come to think of it, I'm kind of in a position of power at the moment. Both sides are pretty evenly matched, and whichever side I join will tip the balance more than enough into that side's favor. I can have 200 ships in the west pacific pretty quickly when needed.

Angermanland, are you sure you wouldn't agree to that deal? I could give you quite a bit for it, not to mention you wouldn't lose much- I could grant you free access to the islands so your contact with Terror and the north isn't cut off.

I'm not interested in wiping any Pacific nation off the map- OOCly, that's pretty mean, and ICly, I want trade partners. The furthest I'd probably go in a war is an annihlation of the enemy's fleet, conquering their outer lands, and then a blockade.

Since other people are doing analysis posts, I figure I'd do one too:

For the two sides in the Aust-Frozopian war as a whole, my main thinking is that you should both try and get me on your side, as the only other power who's really willing to intervene. Give Caladonn everything he wants so you'll win. Since Caladonn is essentially only a naval power, my navy is probably better than almost anyone else's- Terror's is just as advanced I believe, but I probably have a bit of a size bonus on him due to my population and sole focus on the navy. Anyway, since Caladonn is a naval power and this is largely a naval war, I'm doubly useful. (Kinda one-sided, but hey, this is my analysis of the situation)

For Oda, my suggestion is just to attempt to hang on to your territorial gains for dear life. As probably the greatest land power at this point, I bet many nations are trying to organise coalitions against you. (I would be if I were Terror, Tadjikistan, Kirisubo or Toops)

As for Zanarkaand, you should probably keep expanding to the south. I'd like to establish trade relations and a possible alliance with you.

Hmm... who else... Almohed, you should take control of the Suez so you can restrict access to the Mediterranean/Indian Ocean depending on where people are coming from.

Kilani, my thinking is that you should conquer the rest of your island so you have a more secure base to advance from. Be wary of Oda to the north though.

due to the forums errors...BUMP!

I designated times by red dots on the map. Be sure to read the side-notes to the left of the map. I only indicated time from Japan-Aust, and Siciliy-Aust, and Kilani-India. These being the most important at the time being.

Map (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Ship-times.jpg)

First off, me blaming the attack on terror was not actually a Austian act, it was a Austian pirate saying the first name that comes into his head to try and hdie his origian.

And for me, I'm busy with trying to subdue the rest of my island, I don't really want to expand to much. as a Austian honour is everything, I don't betray people, if the Emproer did that then he'd be immidetly overthrown. The penilty for lieing in Aust is death.

From my pointaview I want everyone to survive this war so i can trade with them. I don't want a massive Superpower in the area, becuase that'd put me in danger, at the same time I don't want to many small nations because thats hard to train with. My plans are to be freinds with everyone so i can become rich and advance my tech.

Austian tech isn't that low, we have very good metal working skills and ship-building skills and at this level our complet ignborance of black-powder shouldn't be that costly.

for Anglemanland, Oda, Terror, Caladoon and Kalini: http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10513291#post10513291

Caladonn, I don't have what you want, otherwise I would...

However, I believe after the first (admittedly very important) engagement, naval forces will be restricted to interdicting supply routes, and diversionary attacks. Once the force is landed, we have to deal with it on land, and some of it is bound to land successfully. That's what has me worried, as I'm not sure whether my army is up to scratch.

Hm Austians by the way, that meeting would probably not occur till months into the war (if you sent invitations now). A bit late to be discussing an alliance.....

And Aust, while I accept your reasoning, I'm not sure my High Seneschal will be quite so understanding. So you'd better slaughter every Kilanian who heard my nation's name uttered from that pirate captain's lips. Else there will be consequences in my diplomacy with them, and....repercussions...will follow.
Fair warning given.

Oops by the way in my post above I was more thinking Oda and the Caladonians than anyone else.

Well, I do have colonies quite near to Aust, a pretty quick journey on a fast Frigate. One of my Consuls is actually touring the new colonies at the moment anyway, so he's near enough to respond in a hurry.

I'm not sure if I'll agree to the alliance, but I'll send someone from the top to at least hear what's offered. Who knows, it could work out.

Just a humble request to join this group. Note that an Intro post as well as a factbook post will come within a few weeks. This is just to get some reactions and hear some praise/criticism/death threats.

My nation RPs with Demoniac-like creatures, though they are in no way god-modding. Humans exist in Eeofol, though they are practically slaves.

I'll just give a brief run-down of my nation's inhabitants:

Impari: They appear essentially humanoid, though with a few important differences. Impari have a very boney face, usually with small (1-2") horns made of bone pertruding from the temples, the cheekbones, or any other place around the head. They are usually thinner, and therefore frailer, than humans. They occupy the bulk of the population of Eeofol (About 65%). Though, they are treated little better than Humans.

Daemons: Daemons appear humanoid, though they have some kind of animal attributes to their form. Daemon's clan history can be traced based on their appearances. These features usually augment their natural abilities. For example, the Azazel clan features men with goat-like hooves, tails, and horns. In turn, Azazel are slightly more nimble, a little tougher on the attack, and a little faster than a normal human. Daemons are held in higher regards than the Impari, though they are still subservient to the greater rulers of Eeofol. They occupy about 25% of the population of Eeofol.

Fiends: Fiends are a dark and mysterious brood, whose origins are hypothesized to be from a clan of Daemons. Fiends are, numerically, the smallest portion of Eeofol's population. And for good reason. They often appear as tall, terrifying figures. An average of 11-13', Fiendish clans are distinguished by their physical features in the same way that Daemons are. For example, Prince Demogorgon - a Fiend that controls the Northern-most province of Azzagrath - heralds from a clan of Baboon-headed Fiends. Fiends are often layered with thick fur or armored hide, and are terrifying on the battlefield. Fortunately, only a couple hundred Fiends exist in the world. Though, their political influence is growing.

Devilkin: The undisputed rulers of Eeofol are the Devilkin. Large, powerful creatures. Devilkin appear as red or black-skinned humanoids, averaging approximately 8-9 feet tall. Devilkin are, understandably, stronger than normal humans. Additionally, their ilk are notoriously smart and wise, creating a deadly combination with their physical prowess. Devilkin often have a series of prominent horns made from opal-shaded horns. Devilkin live a very long time, though it is unknown what their natural lifespan is. No Devilkin has ever died by natural causes. Rather, Devilkin assassinate one another for control over the political clout of Eeofol - for which the Devilkin have absolute authority. Still, Devilkin have become complacent and lethargic as of late, allowing certain Fiends and even a few Daemons to become powerful leaders over some provinces of Eeofol. Devilkin number only 5% of Eeofol's population. Of which, only a couple thousand lead soldiers onto the battlefield.

Again, this is brief, poorly-written, and hackneyed. Bascially, imagine hellish creatures in a state. True, there's a lot of fantasy-like elements, but I don't like Godmodding. Rather, I RP a lot of internal warfare. Plus, the Impari are - of anything - weaker than humans. Devilkin are too few to cause too much trouble, and Fiends are a rare sight.

Hm I will leave this for the group to decide.
I would say yes, but to be certain I was right I would have to RP with you first, which is kind of a paradox.

Im not certain of the power of those creatures, thats all.

Hm I will leave this for the group to decide.
I would say yes, but to be certain I was right I would have to RP with you first, which is kind of a paradox.

Im not certain of the power of those creatures, thats all.

Ah, don't worry. I like a good RP better n' winning.

Devils are tough, but it's hardly like "A dozen devils versus and army!" They're more the generals, elite knights, stuff like that. An arrow to the juggular kills them the same as a human. They're just smart enough to try to either protect their neck or not attack from a position that will expose their juggular.

Besides, Devils are practically cowards. Most do not want to fight, but want to lead soldiers into battle.

But, yeah, we'll RP at some point. I'm in a musical right now (opening night tonight) so I haven't been able to make a really detailed post/summary...so when that's over I'll get to work on it.

Ok I will take your word for it. A yes from me. Look back a few pages for a map, and stake a claim.

Today i march to war, finnally a Past Tech War!!!!!!!!! The lands of Almohed and Ionian Spizania will be stained in blood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

Hmm...if I were to stake out territory, then it would be on the eastern-most side of the island that Kilani's on. Nothing too deep into the western part, let me RP to conquer that. Like, litterally: it would be the tinyest bump on the western-most protrusion from the small continent. Hm...it would be abotu the size of your Indonesian holdings. Eeofol would be located in a deep valleyish region. I'm actually making a detailed map right now using a certain program, and I'll post detailed stuff about Eeofol in the opening thread.

I'll go into why and how they'd exist later...but, yeah...

Hm contraversial. Let others confirm it before you get too excited.....

Hm contraversial. Let others confirm it before you get too excited.....

Indeed...I'm not to sure about devils. Orcs and goblins is pushing it, then theres huge cat-like creatures...and then lizards in California...I think this just went from past tech to fantasy past tech. :P

I don't mind...I guess...but my people are very xenophobic, so dont expect an alliance with my nation...heheh...

As long as you do not develop anything that gives the, beyond human abilities it is alright with me.

i believe the original benchmark of this was no magic and no uber creatures.

as long as they're no better than humans i've no problem with that.

That island is Imperial Territory and is Kilani's by right. SHould you claim any part of it, prepare tfor one hell of a fight.

Ostia needs to look to his borders. Impoverished border lords are beginning to raid Ostian villages to make ends meet.

Alright so how does population work exactly?

Use your judgement. Aim for around 20 mill.

Alright then! Expect the factbook soonish then.

I have to object to this, alien races are cool and everything for FT, but not PT. My idea of this rp would be that it would be human, no fantasy period. There is a difference between people who claim to be practicing magic, and demon countries. Sorry. I have to vote nay. Nothing personal man, you'd do fine in FT, which I normally RP.

I'm interested in this, if someone will give me a plot of land in the area where Russia would be, that would be great.

I'll have my factbook shortly!

I have to object to this, alien races are cool and everything for FT, but not PT. My idea of this rp would be that it would be human, no fantasy period. There is a difference between people who claim to be practicing magic, and demon countries. Sorry. I have to vote nay. Nothing personal man, you'd do fine in FT, which I normally RP.

There are of course already nations with nonhuman beings inhabiting them.

But I had no say in those nations, they were before me.

-----

Also, I'm going to go ahead and take Nevus and Nuralla off the map due to no threads or activity lately. If anyone objects or if they come on within the next week or so, I have a backup map that will have them on it. If they are on vacation, their spots will be kept. I just need to know they have not deserted the thread.

Have you sent a TG to these people asking them whether they will continue RPing or not? And i so, did they have some time to respond?

Never forget that we all have lives outside Nationstates and some people may be forced to leave these forums temporarily because of other urgent reasons.

Very true, but Nevus's last activity was three days ago, just a day before the forum trouble.

Nuralla's was one day ago. If they log on, then they are capable of checking the forums, and maybe just posting a random something every now and then to let us know they are here.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10516140#post10516140 Factbook for now.

New MAP (http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/4774/untitled25gm.png)

I have removed Nevus, Nuralla and Warshrike. If they choose to begin RPing on here again, I will put their spots on the map back up. I'm awaiting their responses currently. Those responses will decide the map from here on out.

I have no problemo with new nations joining, it's a big world out there...

but I do think we may be pushing it on the number of non-human races. I'm not dead set against it though. Thus far I've only contacted Caladonn, of the non-human nations, and they're elves, which ain't so different.

And the eastern side of Kilani may get a little busy, cos I might be getting involved there along with Kilanian armies.

EDIT: Antanjyl, you know the link in you sig don't work?

The Slave Trade has been gone for awhile. I'll probably replace it with a PT counterpart soon.

To Ant:

If you do start a PT slave trade, consider Almohed in, it would give a major economical boost, and would relieve Almohed of many of its future dissenters. As I will be conquering a lot, it would be useful to delete the opposition through slavery, thus allowing Almohed citizens to civilize the conquered areas. But yeah, if you do, count me in. :D

Alright the first draft has been done. I'll probably change some things around, but for now it shall do its purpose of giving me a precise location to deal with the numerous peoples I deal in. I'll start listing them as well, just as soon as I start seizing them IC. For now I'll simply rely on my surplus in the population for selling, but in these next few posts. :D

Mmm...okay, I've read a lot of the complaints as well as the support.

First of all, FT is a no-no with my guys. I'm Medieval Tech. I don't have any fancy-shmancy technology. Swords, bows, and siege. We don't have crazy lazer-dazers or whatcha-ma-calls its.

Second, Devilkin and Fiends are just bigger. That's really it. It's like if I trained a bunch of bears to attack in war, only I kept them behind the lines or put them in smaller, elitish fighting groups. A Devil may be a bit taller than a man, a bit stronger than a man, and a bit smarter than a man: but if a man chops his arm off with a sword, then it's going to come off and bleed.

I wouldn't call them "uber creatures," lest you call elephants uber creatures or bears uber creatures.

The way I've designed them is...like, oh, having a varient humanoid race. Advantages and disadvantages.

I'll make another claim later, but first I'd like to first get the sense that I'd be able to join. I mean, I don't want to narrowly get into this place, only to be greated by hostility or intense scruitiny. Also, I respect nation's worries, fears, and points. Almohed makes a valid point: I am an "alien" race. Well, not like an extra-terrestrial, but I'm not a human country. That's true.

If you all would rather be safe than sorry, please, feel free to tell me I cannot join. I'll just RP medieval stuff outside this continuem. Just thought it'd be nice to join something that looked stable/interesting and fairly solid.

Thanks again.

-Eeofol

so---meny---THINGS! argh! now to try and respond to them all :S

ok, the person useing the devils or whatever? looks ok to me, but you're going to have to be careful, same as anyone else useing non-humans. umm, i suggest claimeing somewhere other than Kilani's island though.

Aust's letter, well... that needs a time stamp. we were working on something like that befor the forums putted. put a time stamp on it and actually get in communication with my leader and i'll start responding.

Caladonn, reguarding those islands: the first thing that is nessisaray is actual official contact between the rulers. we can work it out from there. i might actually be willing to give you... some... of it. and there were SOME islands i was willing to trade away. but i have my own interests to look to as well.

looking at the travel time map... it takes 3 months to get from Killani to southern india? in WHAT? a row boat? *laughs* there is a wide disparity in ship types in this reality, so it occures to me, for example, that my waka would take about twice that, while a master could pull it off in less than one month, given good wind, and under 2 in anything but perfect calm or horrific storm. still. it's a start.

now, we need to actually resolve the time thing befor we get much further into this. as was said, letters take months to go anywhere.

and i THINK that was everything.

umm, Almohed, what's going on with north-west africa there? i can see that giving you all sorts of problems, if anyone decides to attack you.

Thanks, Angermanland.

I'm also thinking, I may scrap the Fiend idea. Just have Devilkin. After all, Devilkin are just big buggers. Fiends were a bit...uber. I admit.

I'm writing an intro-post to the species of Eeofol to give you some idea. It should be out in a few days or so...

Thanks again.

The travel map is purely for those invaders of aust. I guesstimated that their travelling with hundreds of ships in a huge armada, so I made my calculations accordingly for just that. Armada travel. Large groups of ships, if they plan to stay together, have to travel slowly and cautiously. Otherwise it would be god-moddish.

I would say cut the time in half for individual ships, such as your waka. Sorry I didn't make that clear to begin with. I'm having trouble in RL and I have been able to find time to produce a really nice travel map yet. so, give me some time.

ahh, good to know then. thanks for doing this anyway :)

Yeah if someone attacks me, that could be a big trouble spot. But I got it under control ;). There is a method to what seems to be random spreadingness. :D

The travel map is purely for those invaders of aust. I guesstimated that their travelling with hundreds of ships in a huge armada, so I made my calculations accordingly for just that. Armada travel. Large groups of ships, if they plan to stay together, have to travel slowly and cautiously. Otherwise it would be god-moddish.

I would say cut the time in half for individual ships, such as your waka. Sorry I didn't make that clear to begin with. I'm having trouble in RL and I have been able to find time to produce a really nice travel map yet. so, give me some time.

Huh? I missed that, let me have another look.

Oh I see. You know it would be alot faster travelling around and through Angermanland, far fewer reefs despite the additional distance. Anyone agree?

Last night, I decided to forgo sleep and re-define Eeofol. So, I've decided that Eeofol will only have humans within its depths.

I think this should clear up everything nice and easy. Besides, it makes it kind of better to RP with. I have some good ideas.

Quick question, though: I know that magic is primarily forbidden, but would minor cantropic magic (IE: having a glowing insignia suspended a few feet into the air) be allowed? My guess, no: but I'm just putting it out there.

I doubt it man, sorry.

No, only real tech-sorry.

And as for a time stamp, (for the letter) I'm thinking just when the 1st news of you invasion fleet came to me. my immidet responce would be to find allies.
Anger, I need a reply on time.

Can I have these new lands, and if necessary want me to I will make a thread of the conquest of these land? The lands I am invading are pointed out in white lines:
http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled25gm8kj.png

Dont be rediculous. Your troops are stretched enough trying to secure Britain and France etc, which you invaded like months ago.

I say no.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=471357

Antanjyl will be pushing Westward violently. Also it should help with our Slave Market IC. ;) If Philanchez would like to come into contact with my raiders he can, but more or less at this point we'll stop before coming that close to your territory.

If you want to trande slaves,

We already do slaves. Why the hell you think Im going to Aust?

Okay, Angermanland, I'll post in your thread- we'll see what we can work out.

Since most of the players in the Americas have become active, I'm once again thinking of an American summit in Caladonn: Hyr, Zanarkaand, Philanchez, Antanjyl, Scandinvans, what do you think about that?

I suppose a summit in the Americas could work if you came into contact with us. We're pretty high up there, and we are a theocracy, but other than that, a summit might be alright.

@Frozopia: If we make contact I'm sure some slave trading would be possible, in one way or another.

Yep, gathered as much. No magic or notin' like that.

Just for a preliminary idea of where my nation will be, the eastern-most coast of Africa...oh, about where Tanzia and Kenya are...will probably be where Eeofol will claim as its territory.

Well, I'm off to my second night of the musical. Wish me luck!

Sure we aint to far from each other. I will give you some of my good Austian stock when I get it. :D

Good luck Eeofol, try not to mess up! ;)

I'm sure the Austians are good hard workers, I'll probably have to make up for it by giving you some Philanchezians among others. Just need to cut through this continent with the nice heated knife of war though.

Armored knights versus the native americans! Who will win? At least untill I reach Philanchez's territory I don't know for sure, since they're still a mystery to the Antanjylians.

Too bad I can't just carry my ships over the North Pole to get into Russia...


Edit: This will probably be the map after the massive landgrab Antanjyl is undertaking. Slow and delibearate. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Kutulmak/untitled26gm.png

Aust, i'm sorry, but i Really can't reply to that letter untill after we get done with the bit in your "Time" thread i'm makeing up EVERYTHING as i go along, and it just makes it more and more awkward if i try and do things such as that "councle" or whatever, befor i have the coninuitay lineing up with it.

as of right "now", no one is in a position to recive that letter, or respond to it, except for Mahkath, who is currently In Transit, and doesn't have the authority. i'm Still working out the attitudes between our nations, amoung other things... i just don't think the right way to be able to do that kinda jumping around. so your choices are either to leave me out of the councle for the moment, or to actually move the Time thread along to catch up with it.

i get the distinct impresion that most of the "Time" thread is actually occuring prior to your awareness of the impending invasion though?



on a totaly different note: the date/time system. we need one, or this is going to be a large headache. so far we have some ideas floating around. and that's it.

Dont be rediculous. Your troops are stretched enough trying to secure Britain and France etc, which you invaded like months ago.Wait, just wondering how fast goes because I thought it had already been years.

i'd settle for 1450 myself so the tech level can finally be settled before the various invasions start.

Aust, i'm sorry, but i Really can't reply to that letter untill after we get done with the bit in your "Time" thread i'm makeing up EVERYTHING as i go along, and it just makes it more and more awkward if i try and do things such as that "councle" or whatever, befor i have the coninuitay lineing up with it.

as of right "now", no one is in a position to recive that letter, or respond to it, except for Mahkath, who is currently In Transit, and doesn't have the authority. i'm Still working out the attitudes between our nations, amoung other things... i just don't think the right way to be able to do that kinda jumping around. so your choices are either to leave me out of the councle for the moment, or to actually move the Time thread along to catch up with it.

i get the distinct impresion that most of the "Time" thread is actually occuring prior to your awareness of the impending invasion though?



yes it is, but I still need reply. My Emproers just 'spoken' to your bloke anbd needs a reply. (This is on 'time'.) If you wish I'll get rid of the letyter until later.

Hey Scand, I need you to reply in my "Rise of the Han Empire" thread. I responded to your captain...

I think, right now, we decide on a time. 1450 looks good to me, and kirisubo, and is roughly the time where everyones techs fit in; with the exception of some naval tech, but then that can be allowed I guess.

So, do we all agree that 1450 is an ok starting period?

-----

Second thing: How many years have passed since the start?

I would say within the range of 5-9 years. I've done quite a bit of conquering and I still have to post up my military losses over-all and reposition troops and a whole lot of other things. So in my opinion, our starting point is 1450, and about 7 years have passed since then (the start of the rp).

I would say two years have passed max. If I had known so much time had passed I would of spent some of it stretching Frozopia's boarders......

indeed, i don't see why we actually need a set date....

And Froztopia, your being a little presumtious arn't you? How do you know your going to win, I've got a more powerful navy and army than you. (Well more men anyway.)

Well, if it has been at least two years since my invasion and conquest of Normandy, Wales, and England. So I have had enough time to eliminate the larger pockets of resistance and as well build strongholds which I could fall back on in case of a large scale rebellion.

Is it possible to set up this “Mercenary” nation then? If so, can I be marked down as having South Georgia, Diego Garcia and the small jutting out area above The Scandinvans holding on the south-east of Greenland.

How large would this mercantile nation be though? Same size as usual perhaps? Or would you have a smaller nation but larger army?

terror, you remember asking about the philipine islands?

The Kirisubans have now withdrawn from the supply base and taken everything they can with them.

the local civilians are still there and unharmed. Kirisubans don't take slaves.

Almohed, that Kirisuban presence can now be taken off the world map.

A few questions:

- Gunpowder and the like, what's the current TL of that?
- Can we mess around with the terrain of the land? IE: Add valleys and mountains where there are none in the RL setting the place is based on?
- Can we do the same for resources, so long as it's not god-moddish?
- What is the overall level of science/politics in this setting? IE: Are we all still relying on monks for technology, or are alchemists involved? Or, are scientists involved? Are independant villages (IE: villages that nave no lord or feudal ruler that pay money directly to the king) a common, uncommon, rare, or uninvented occurance?

Thanks, factbook will be up some time this week...plus an intro post...

since we're talking 1450 AD gunpowder weapons will be small mortars and cannons and matchlock smoothbore muskets if your nations tech level has got that far.

the rest of your nation is up to you.

Kirisubo is based on feudal japan so theres already a well organised system of local government. I'm sure you'd have something similar.

so far as i can tell, techwise it goes thus: Most nations, especially in the pacific, have very advanced sailing ships. some of them don't, but mostly they do. gunpoweder weapons, on the other hand, are primitive, with smooth bore matchlock muskets being THE cutting edge, expencive, and very few nations haveing them. cannon are highly variable rangeing from pieces of junk that are more likely to explode than fire, right up to the occasional gun you wouldn't expect untill muskets were mroe advanced. however, balista, trebuchets, etc, still seem pretty common.

on the other hand, i Personaly, don't have any workable mettles at all. which leaves me with some interesting stone and wood weapons [don't right them off, given how they're treated they're a match for any melee weapon and most armor]

Longbows Seem to be the ranged weapon of choice, as they are still supperior to muskets in every way but length of trianing time required.

sciences is Very variable. some places have proper scientests, i think, some are still dependant on monks. Angermanland, for example, has schollars. somewhere between a monk and a scientest.

as for the terrain, well, if you're prepaired to provide a map, i don't see why not :) but that's just me.

resorces are the same.

Politics tend toward empire, it seems. any random indipendant Anythings are rappidly swallowed up by the huge imperial player nations.
however, fudalisem doesn't even exist in a lot of places, so Everything goes directly to the king, or whatever form of government is in place.



on a totaly unrelated note:

my thread is waiting on pretty much everyone at this point :P

bear in mind, i'm entirely capable of being wrong on any and all counts except those relaiting directly to myself.

And Froztopia, your being a little presumtious arn't you? How do you know your going to win, I've got a more powerful navy and army than you. (Well more men anyway.)

duh! Its called forward planning and overconfidence. But dont worry, I wont own you too hard. You will at least have tasmania by the end.

Flintlock guns arent in use are they? Because it seems the Scadinavians and the Antajyl are using them....

If not I'll easily just downgrade them and have them be muskets. By the way, where is the link angermanland?

in all honesty, if i remember right, low level cannons were ment to be the UPPER limit on gunpowder... but that sorta fell over somewhere along the line.

If not I'll easily just downgrade them and have them be muskets. By the way, where is the link angermanland?

well, you're not in it, so it's not waiting on you..but it should be on the list on the first page, if you want to get involved... but it'd take you a Long time to get anyone over there.

How large would this mercantile nation be though? Same size as usual perhaps? Or would you have a smaller nation but larger army?

It’ll hover around the 10,000 mark military wise, but these will be spread out between the 3 locations (Greenland holding would be the major one however). The idea is that much more then the normal 10% of the population fight... but theres not much population left.

The idea behind it is that I’ll have 3 fortress-cities, which are all that’s left of a classical sea fairing empire. The down side to this is that theres no organized nation left to speak of, so there will be no land grabs. Due to the size of the cities and the lack of farmland, essentials such as food only are obtainable from other nations. The nations way of supporting itself is through major mercenary activity paid in either gold or supplies for the 3 great fortress cities.

Hopefully people will see that’s its better to pay for our services rather then attack us. The mercenaries will always be few in number, but hard as nails.

The cities would also make a good neutral ground if its ever needed.

Locate a base in the Pacific and you can expect work from me.

Oh and a small island just south west of Frozopia. :P

Well, my impression of tech for Caladonn is that we're very advanced navally but are terrible in completely land-based operations. I have no access to smallarm weapons, but have pretty advanced cannon. I don't really think flintlocks and such is really reasonable- after all, matchlocks were still being used quite a while after our time.

I don't really think flintlocks and such is really reasonable- after all, matchlocks were still being used quite a while after our time.
I dont really get your point. Just ease thinks by saying no to flintlocks.

The Holy Empire of Antanjyl has much use for heathen mercenaries. :D

A few questions:

- Gunpowder and the like, what's the current TL of that?
- Can we mess around with the terrain of the land? IE: Add valleys and mountains where there are none in the RL setting the place is based on?
- Can we do the same for resources, so long as it's not god-moddish?
- What is the overall level of science/politics in this setting? IE: Are we all still relying on monks for technology, or are alchemists involved? Or, are scientists involved? Are independant villages (IE: villages that nave no lord or feudal ruler that pay money directly to the king) a common, uncommon, rare, or uninvented occurance?

Thanks, factbook will be up some time this week...plus an intro post...

Like Kirisubo and Angermanland said, its pretty much up to you. The South-East Pacific is pretty advanced in gunpowder due to the Han Empire (me). I think I'm the only nation with "real" scientists, astrologers, alchemists, metalurgists, etc. I mean, in RL, at 1450 the Chinese Emperor was eating on gold dishes and using table utensils whereas Henry the 8th was still eating off a piece of flattened bread and using a knife; and thats just the cullinary differences between Europe and Asia, at this time period.

Caladon, I believe that even though your a pretty advanced in sea-faring, that doesn't mean you would have good cannon. I would think you'd only have rudimentry incounters with it as you trade further west with the Pacific, try to keep this realistic afterall. Same to you antanjyl.

If you read my factbook page, I created examples and specified political and resource maps. This to clearify things if someone was curios. Perhaps you could do the same. (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470954))

Independant areas of land within your borders would be judge upon the level of government you have. Kirisubo and I both have a strict direct Imperial government, as I believe would be the same for Ostia and perhaps Aust. (Roman Empire type deal) Since your going to be a demon-based nation, I would suspect your level of government to be low and slightly chaotic at best.

Like Kirisubo and Angermanland said, its pretty much up to you. The South-East Pacific is pretty advanced in gunpowder due to the Han Empire (me). I think I'm the only nation with "real" scientists, astrologers, alchemists, metalurgists, etc. I mean, in RL, at 1450 the Chinese Emperor was eating on gold dishes and using table utensils whereas Henry the 8th was still eating off a piece of flattened bread and using a knife; and thats just the cullinary differences between Europe and Asia, at this time period.

Caladon, I believe that even though your a pretty advanced in sea-faring, that doesn't mean you would have good cannon. I would think you'd only have rudimentry incounters with it as you trade further west with the Pacific, try to keep this realistic afterall. Same to you antanjyl.

If you read my factbook page, I created examples and specified political and resource maps. This to clearify things if someone was curios. Perhaps you could do the same. (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470954))

Independant areas of land within your borders would be judge upon the level of government you have. Kirisubo and I both have a strict direct Imperial government, as I believe would be the same for Ostia and perhaps Aust. (Roman Empire type deal) Since your going to be a demon-based nation, I would suspect your level of government to be low and slightly chaotic at best.
I don't mean that my cannon are really awesome as cannon from any time period go, I just mean that my cannon are probably as good as our nations can make cannon in this period- my cannon will probably be as good as yours, for example, but chances are not better since you're saying that you're a majorly gunpowder nation. Bear in mind though that I have no small arms at all.

Bear in mind that many of our cultures in this have very little to do with real-world equivalents in their area- while yours, Ostia's, Kirisubo's and to a certain extent Angermanland's do, Aust, me, Antanjyl and many others certainly don't. Therefore, while IRL China was the most advanced in many things, in this game China is no advanced than Terror Incognitia, me, or others, at least in some fields.

Also, for Frozopia- I just put in the thing about matchlocks being used in later centuries since I didn't know exactly when flintlocks were invented, but that the retention of matchlocks meant that they probably weren't invented for a while.

The Flintlock was invented and brought into active service at around 1670, The bayonet(barrel inserted) was already invented in 1640 but not accepted for active duty until 1699(in France)

WinTrees, I gave you quite a few bases, in the olive green. I have you in the Caribbean under Haiti and Puerto Rico, some islands off of California, and in the North Phillipines.

Ant, I have put in the territory under conflict, keeping the border between yours and the invaded territory. Once it becomes yours, I'll erase the border.

And, new MAP (http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9278/untitled29es.png)

Austs govermential system: Well where an Empire, the Emporer is all powerful but most of the decisions don't reach him. He appoints minister to deal with most things. he cna intervine with anything he wishes to, but mainly concentrates on Millitary matters.

As on advancement, Aust dosn't have gunpowder or horses. But becuase of our religion structure (The Emproers seen as a god) we have few preists, people just pray to the Emproer in any way they want. We have many sientists but most of there work is carried out toards the Navy, and medican. Where very advanced in the medical deparment.

Can I have these new lands, and if necessary want me to I will make a thread of the conquest of these land? The lands I am invading are pointed out in white lines:
http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled25gm8kj.pngOkay, I will ask again will it be alright I invade these lands and conquer them because no one else really has interest in them? If you want to know I want to be able to make sure I control the waters around the heart land of my nation.

The Holy Empire of Ostia wishes to claim Egypt. My lands are small as it stands right now, i would be very much abliged.

Scandavians, I don;'t think it's really possable. Your attacking some of the most feared fighting people in the world, and your doing it about 5 years after you concored England. You simply don't have enough men. it took 30 years for the normans to supress England, it'll take you at least as long before you have enough troops to invade those places.

Right, on technology, as I see it there is an upper limit. This seems to involve matchlock muskets and reasonably advanced cannon. Presumably other tech reasonably on a par with such. If you want your nation to be lower than that, so be it.
Incognitia has universities, it has scholars. I think 'scientists' is a bit rich for the time period. However, people who spend much of their time on improving knowledge and technology, though not in a systematic, theoretical, scientific way....
Wintrees, I see with your territory in Northern Philippines there's been a wee continuity error:eek: Not your fault/problem, but I massacred some Kirisubans round there. Anyway, I think you'll be getting very swift contact from me. Possibly in my thread, unless yours is up soon.

I'm with Aust. Given that, if we're mid 1400's, England is mid Wars of the Roses, so you've got experienced armies controlled by no central authority wandering around. You would basically have to level most of the major castles in the country, either costing you tens of thousands of men or taking a couple of decades.

It took the Normans however long...and the England they conquered was not heavily fortified, and was fairly centralised, so once they took out the King and took London, the rest was relatively easy.

I'm with Aust. Given that, if we're mid 1400's, England is mid Wars of the Roses, so you've got experienced armies controlled by no central authority wandering around. You would basically have to level most of the major castles in the country, either costing you tens of thousands of men or taking a couple of decades.

It took the Normans however long...and the England they conquered was not heavily fortified, and was fairly centralised, so once they took out the King and took London, the rest was relatively easy.

But then this isn't a historical recreation of the time period, meaning that while we do pull some things from RL history into the time period of NPCs, that does not mean that those areas will be historically the same.

But I do agree, Scand, that you should consolidate your forces and land first. Its what I'm doing.

Not to mention you've got scotland there, and... good lord, you're trying to hold onto Ireland as well? that's going take a bit of doing. then you've got to worry about your french borders. the general consencus, depressinglye enough, seems to be that you should be, for the moment, dealing diplomaticly with your neighbours and working on internal issues... on the other hand, we Could let him expand.. at the cost of fairly significant internal issues as he moves his troops around. not to mention i'm sure a couple of nations would be very happy to pounce the french holdings :)

Anglemanland, can you please reply to time...pritty please?

sorry, Aust, i don't know what's up with that. it's not showing up when someone posts anymore. i'll look into it. it's still on my list, just... not registereing new posts or something.

guess it's doing the same to you, actually, Aust. i replyed last night [my time at least] and mine's still the last post up there.

Since, everyone is concerned about my troop numbers I am right now attempting to get support of some of Antanjyl soldiers that are not currently engaged in warfare.

well, that'll do for Takeing new land. but you're still going to have issues once it's taken and they want to go home. how are you going to hold it?

also, i sugest that if you're going to expand, you head into europe so you're not getting further and further away from your capital [an issue of control, there], or maby russia.

terror, since wintrees has control of the island we did fight over theres an easy solution to the problem.

just move your forces to the next island in the chain and we'll say thats where the naval battle took place.

Wintree certainly has an advantage being at the gateway to the south pacific.

Let him have more land, come into contact with hostile nations, and have it all taken away! That'd be funny :p [jk] As long as it's not ridiculous, I guess. If you hold suzerainty over bits of it, rather than actually rule...

Oh yeah, this whole slave trade thing...at the moment I have little to no contact with slave-trading nations, but as and when we do, we'll be interfering. As in attacking slaving vessels, freeing slaves, and generally disrupting that disgusting trade. Incognitians aren't into owning people, and they can get...a little uptight about letting other people do otherwise. Certainly if any Incognitians get sold into slavery....

EDIT: Kiri, sounds good to me. We never really specified after all. My expeditionary force will probably be Wintrees first contact then. :D Mercenaries.

EDIT 2: Wintrees, I now have a naval patrol approaching your Philippine holdings, in my thread. Welcome, you may have business.:cool:

Other than in some of Asia slavery is the thing in Europe, Africa, and the Americas about this time, especially the Southern parts. Though we doubt we'll get near your nation for a few decades Terror. At least not slave-wise.

Kirisubo dosen't do slavery either but they still have child selling which continued as a practice in Japan until 1945.

Its not regarded as slavery because the child in question got to learn a trade and in some jobs got an education. The Geisha and Courtesans generally recruited this way.

no slavery in Angermanland, at least, not as such. most criminal punishments amount to temporary slavery, wiht the state as owner..but that's it.

My new thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10532174 (Almodite Expansion)

AAAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDDD.................


THE NEW MAP!!!!!!! (http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/9914/untitled28gp.png)

I would think that the ranged weapon of choice would be the crossbow because it requires less time to get a reasonable level of skill then the Welsh/English Warbow. just my $0.02.

Oh yes, Rodenkan border lords arenot very wealthy, and will sometimes resort ot raids on small villages to make ends meet. Just an FYI for those who border me. Officially, the king condemns such activity, but actually doesn't care all that much.

The crossbow has a dreadful rate of fire and jam frequently. However they do sometimes have superior range and firepower, but these are often expensive.

when it comes to bows and crossbows, if you have man portable guns, you're never going to use a crossbow again. muskets and the like Replace crossbows.

Longbows, on the other hand, weren't actually obsolete, as such, untill the invention of the breachloading rifle. the combination of rate of fire, accuracy, and range were ... amazeing, by the scale of the time. the only reason they became less common was that the most effective forms required at least 10 years of training befor one was skilled enough to take advantage of them, where as the musket required very little training to load and fire, [as did the crossbow] with most training begin for speed and unit co-ordination

My new thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10532174 (Almodite Expansion)

AAAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDDD.................


THE NEW MAP!!!!!!! (http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/9914/untitled28gp.png)


just... no....

i realise you're probilby getting some of the sahara in that? [it was smaller then than now, btw] but that's just getting rediculous. there was a reason i suggested that you take either africa OR europe, you know.

Like Kirisubo and Angermanland said, its pretty much up to you. The South-East Pacific is pretty advanced in gunpowder due to the Han Empire (me). I think I'm the only nation with "real" scientists, astrologers, alchemists, metalurgists, etc. I mean, in RL, at 1450 the Chinese Emperor was eating on gold dishes and using table utensils whereas Henry the 8th was still eating off a piece of flattened bread and using a knife; and thats just the cullinary differences between Europe and Asia, at this time period.

Caladon, I believe that even though your a pretty advanced in sea-faring, that doesn't mean you would have good cannon. I would think you'd only have rudimentry incounters with it as you trade further west with the Pacific, try to keep this realistic afterall. Same to you antanjyl.

If you read my factbook page, I created examples and specified political and resource maps. This to clearify things if someone was curios. Perhaps you could do the same. (Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=470954))

Independant areas of land within your borders would be judge upon the level of government you have. Kirisubo and I both have a strict direct Imperial government, as I believe would be the same for Ostia and perhaps Aust. (Roman Empire type deal) Since your going to be a demon-based nation, I would suspect your level of government to be low and slightly chaotic at best.


Cool. I'm writing my factbook now. Urinetown - the Musical was a bit hit. Had my final performance not long ago. :( So sad...

Oh, and just an FYI, I'm someone who's really into military history - especially medieval history. If you need anyone to consult about discrepencies in timeline stuff involving tactics, numbers, strength, technology, and hierarchy, I am a good source of information and knowledge.

Thanks again...I'll link to my site soon.

Once again, I say that my nation is not a demon nation - though, the religion is similar to a satanic-type religion. Well, you'll all see in the bio.

Since I'm in Africa, I'm going to have access to Elephants, if no one objects. Additionally, I'm going to say that either a series of volanic activities or very heavy meteor showers created very deep valleys in the more immediate regions of my nation.

If anyone has any objections, please, state them.

-Eeofol

My new thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10532174 (Almodite Expansion)

AAAAAAANNNNNNNDDDDDD.................


THE NEW MAP!!!!!!! (http://img317.imageshack.us/img317/9914/untitled28gp.png)

Hehe...one problem with this.

It's Eeofol, not Eofol.

Also, let me stress something: this will be the dominion of my influence, not my actual "centralized" power. Most of the actual land of Eeofol is in a much smaller location. Rather, the outlying provinces and the like are left as areas to essentially control, tax, and terrorize. Though, they are considered (by the people of Eeofol) to be seperate "wilderness."

The crossbow has a dreadful rate of fire and jam frequently. However they do sometimes have superior range and firepower, but these are often expensive.

China invented the crossbow in like 400- BC....and bu 0-100 AD we had repeating crossbows...and thier pretty cheap to make...in my country...


Almohed: No. Just No. Your country would not have the resources or man power to take over THAT MUCH land. Its just not possible, especially it being so far away. Ostia and Spizania could rip the hell out of you if they invaded since most of your troops would have to be in North Africa, not to mention your lines of communication being torn to shreds when they cut your sea lanes. I think the whole area where you hade the Ivory coast works, but that new expansion area you slapped down is a bit much. So, I ask that you remove it. Its just not possible.

eloquence AND vehnimance.. gotta love it. especially if i actually used the words right.

eloquence AND vehnimance.. gotta love it. especially if i actually used the words right.

It's an inate ability. I try not to use it too often though, the X-men would hate me if I did, since with it I'm cooler. :D

Thank you!

Thank you!

....who are you speaking to, and what you thanking them for? A random first post by a newb, or a veteran who forgot to mention he was in puppet...weird.

when it comes to bows and crossbows, if you have man portable guns, you're never going to use a crossbow again. muskets and the like Replace crossbows.

Longbows, on the other hand, weren't actually obsolete, as such, untill the invention of the breachloading rifle. the combination of rate of fire, accuracy, and range were ... amazeing, by the scale of the time. the only reason they became less common was that the most effective forms required at least 10 years of training befor one was skilled enough to take advantage of them, where as the musket required very little training to load and fire, [as did the crossbow] with most training begin for speed and unit co-ordination

Actualy, all bows were abandoned once the flintlock became frequent(exceptions were poorer Eastern and southern peoples). The flintlock musket could be reloaded fairly fast and was an accurate weapon. The bow on the other hand, is an 'area weapon'.
Films like Robin hood and LotR give you the impression that bowmen selected and fired at a target, even at larger distances, while in reality bows had to be fired in large numbers to achieve the desired effect.
The rate of fire of a bow has two main disadvantages, first of all, the battle of Crecy lasted almost a whole day, which means that if they at a speed of 14 shots per minute, they'd be out of ammo in less than half an hour, rendering themselves useless for the remainder of the battle.
Archers also had the problem that if they fired their arrows rapidly, they'd get exhausted, making later shots even less acurate and not as far as their first. This also means that the bow is prefferably fired in a defensive position as the archers will get tired of moving forward in an attack, making range and acuraccy even worse.
The musket(with flintlock) takes about a minute to reload, but thats enough. a random peasant could be trained at this in about two weeks and he could fire his musket acurately up to 200 yards, not to forget that the round fired was able to penetrate the armor of a knight(calibre of a flintlock musket varied, usually 20-22mm, which is huge for an infantry weapon).

Could you just place a small Austian spot between Antlyja and Phil? (North). It only has to be small and on the coast. I know it's long way from my holdings buts it's neccacy for our RP.

If anything, Tadjik, and I say this as one largely dependent on muskets, you overstate the bow's weaknesses, and understate those of the musket.

However, one or two things, the sources I have come across suggest trained men being capable of 4 shots a minute with flintlocks, and with the matchlocks we've agreed are more appropriate here, 3 shots. Not the one you quote. And the 20-22 mm sounds too high. Somehow I have the idea of more like 1/3-1/2 an inch. Finally, the flintlock was not accurate beyond 80 yards. Only with flintlock rifles, which went down to around 1 or 2 shots a minute, could that be reliably bettered.

Anyways. I think in current conditions the battlefield relation of muskets and bows is fairly balanced, swung for me by the fact that new recruits are better off with muskets; swung for Frozo the other way (for example) by the fact their men are professionals.

Sounds good Aust, but note that this places you in a very dangerous posisition, especially since we both worship our Emperors as Gods. One misplaced word and... O_o

If anything, Tadjik, and I say this as one largely dependent on muskets, you overstate the bow's weaknesses, and understate those of the musket.

However, one or two things, the sources I have come across suggest trained men being capable of 4 shots a minute with flintlocks, and with the matchlocks we've agreed are more appropriate here, 3 shots. Not the one you quote. And the 20-22 mm sounds too high. Somehow I have the idea of more like 1/3-1/2 an inch. Finally, the flintlock was not accurate beyond 80 yards. Only with flintlock rifles, which went down to around 1 or 2 shots a minute, could that be reliably bettered.

Anyways. I think in current conditions the battlefield relation of muskets and bows is fairly balanced, swung for me by the fact that new recruits are better off with muskets; swung for Frozo the other way (for example) by the fact their men are professionals.
I really know mroe abotu Napolionic history, but at the time of the wars, (1800 about) a average Brown bess musketman, flintlock operated could fire 3 shots a minuate at a maximum range of 50 yards. 5 a minuate was the best recorded for paltoon fire and 2 a minuate was the average. The balls could fly further than 50 yards but beyond that aiming was impossable. The sheer kick of the musket was so large you have to aim towards the enermys feet.

it would take about 3 years to train a musketman to ful battledress, though the British did it in 6 months the results where poor. men only got good with time and experience.

It's easier to train a man to use a musket then to use a bow. That said, a bow can be fired faster and can reload faster. It's also quieter.

The thing you have to do with muskets is this: drill in the morning, drill, drill, drill, lunch, more drill, and in between more drill.

The crossbow was used well into the 16th and even into the early 17th century, when matchlock muskets were making their debut.

The crossbow, like the musket, was simpler to learn to use then the longbow, and in some cases had superior power and range. Whihc is why I use them for my PT nation, though they are a much more effective defensive weapon. Leave the offense to cavalry! =D

It's easier to train a man to use a musket then to use a bow. That said, a bow can be fired faster and can reload faster. It's also quieter.

The thing you have to do with muskets is this: drill in the morning, drill, drill, drill, lunch, more drill, and in between more drill.
Aye, the fact is, as the duke of wellington said, 350 hyears after this time period. "IF my men had been armed with longbows we'd have beaten boney twice as fast."

If, if, if...that's what this whole thing is all about :D

Lets face it longbows own, if your troops have had a life time with them and alot of arrows, both of which I bring to Aust.

Muskets suck. Big time. 40 yards is more accurate 1800 muskets, even the new British rifle sucks in comparison.

IMO there are 3 great weapons for their time: The Longbow, the machine gun and the A bomb.

Repeating crossbows sucked. They have poor range, armour piercing ability and jam like hell.

Well, one thing would finally decide it, a contest on even ground between equally experienced, equal sized armies using each.
Failing that, a war with each being used on (ideally) both sides. Sure we can manage that.:cool: :headbang: :sniper:

Oda's men in Angermanland seem to be MIA :P the prince has gone looking for them, along with his chancilor.


any hope of something happeningthere? don't make me pull something as daft as the reefs near Aust when Froz's ships just went "poof" ... i think it was Froz... i forget.

My invasion thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10536983

Frozopia your quite right, which is why i dont really use crossbows unless in siege. Even then I prefer the longbow. China and Japan and maybe England would have the best and cheapest longbows of the period.

I wouldn't touch muskets or matchlocks for a long time, not until they get more accurate anyway. Until then I still ahve my 300,000 trained core of longbowmen. :D

Sry, Angermanland, I'll post on that later....:headbang:

Hmmm. Oda, you'd better hope you're not so far behind by the time they're "worth touching" you never catch up.:cool:

Longbows are definitely better than muskets. Even in the mid 18th century muskets had a max range of 100 yards and could only fire 3 shots a minute. In contrast, I believe Longbows can fire 800 yards with 6 shots a minute- that's eight times as good range and twice as good rate of fire as a musket- and a musket from three centuries later.

By the way, I'm invading the Lesser Antilles, the Bahamas, and Cuba- pretty much what's left of the Carribean.

I really do understand ya'lls concerns. But if you think about it, it's not that hard to accomplish. Yes, it will take quite a long time, but I plan on having quite a long time to conquer it. I'm not going to conquer it with military might. Those soldiers are there to quell uprisings, and to help populate the area so that it becomes mine through cultural integration. And if you have a honest problem with my expansion to encompass the Sahara (which only has a population of about 30,000 at this period of time), remember that we are rping the imperialistic age. Just because I'm located in the Middle East doesn't mean I can't have land in Africa. The Dutch had the Cape of Good Hope, England had India, Portugal had Brazil, Spain had Mexico. I think that some of you are basing things more on regional areas, than realizing that empires back then did not necessarily have regular borders like we tend to have now. Also, if your worried about manpower, it is dated that there were armies of close to 700,000 men in the Middle East approxamately 3000 years BEFORE the time we are rping. Anyway, hope no one got offended. Just trying to clear things up a bit so that people don't get all up in arms about my expansions.

What is the point!? Invading a bloody desert!?
You could send a million men in and they would all die! Why?
Because you will starve and die. The Sahara belongs to no one for christ sake.

There is a method to my madness.

Not many people in the Sahara to integrate though. The only thing they have in the Sahara of value is essentially salt.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469057


Holy Empire of Ostia

Okay, I just thought I'd chip in a few words here. Some of ya’ll got a very warped idea of what a crossbow was and what a longbow was. If you want me to cite my sources, just ask. But, trust me, I’m a long-time reader/follower of medieval military history.

Here's the drill.

First of all, the longbow was rarely used by military forces till Edward III of England. This is because of a few reasons. First of all, the longbow - despite it’s range - suffers from very poor penetration at long distances. Thus, longbows were most effective from a very close range against armored individuals. Additionally, longbows and those who used such weapons were expensive. It took years of training to build up the body strength, the accuracy, and the skill to utilize such a complex weapon effectively. If this is around 1400 - a bit after the tail-end of the Renaissance - then longbows would still be a relatively unpopular, expensive, and rarely-used weapon. The one incident in the hundreds year war is, well, kind of a fluke. Englands’ soldiers had a few major advantages in the terrain, and the French crossbow mercenaries were confused by a series of missmatched orders, complex formations, and poor weather/terrain conditions.

The crossbow was like the atomic bomb in the medieval days. A knight who had spent a lifetime training in the art of war and a fortune on his armor and weapons could be killed by a simple peasant after a few hours training with a crossbow. Easy to carry, simple to load, cheap to manufacture, and relatively unaffected by moist conditions (a dampened string could still fire a quarrel effectively), the crossbow remained a major force on the European battlefield till the advent of more advanced muskets as well as musket formations. Again, this doesn’t happen till around the 1630s, when Gustav Adolphus pioneers “continuous fire” by using alternating lines of musketmen.

So, let me just set a few outlines when talking about bows versus crossbows:

Bows (Both Longbows and Regular) do have a few major advantages. They can reload much faster than a crossbow. Even amateur peasant bowmen during the hundred years war were expected to fire approximately three shafts a minute - as opposed to the crossbows’ single shot per minute. Second, they can be utilized on light cavalry, whereas crossbows are generally too difficult to utilize properly on horseback. With the exception of the Arbalest, a French crossbow which in the 14th century was used a few times effectively on horseback. More importantly, variant arrows allowed an archer to have more flexibility in determining how to best kill a target. For example, barbed arrowheads could kill horses more effectively, whereas thinner arrowheads were best against armor. Crossbows had some similar practices, though they were much smaller. For example, adding wax to the tip of a quarrel would help it stick and penetrate armor. However, one would have to apply the wax to each quarrel one wished to fire, while archers could carry a variety of arrows into combat.
However, there are some major disadvantages. Though a bow (especially by the 1400s) is cheaper to make than crossbows, the money poured into training the archers to use the weapon effectively was extremely expensive. If the archers were undertrained, then not only would accuracy be affected, but fatigue would set in. It takes tremendous strength to pull back the string of a longbow, whereas a crossbow can be set into place by a child. Additionally, arrows were generally bulkier and harder to manufacture than quarrels. Quarrels were literally just the arrowhead with a stubby piece of wood on the end. Arrows were usually hand-crafted using metal, wood, and feathers. It had to be aerodynamic, whereas a quarrel is allowed a greater margin of crudeness. Also, if a peasant army must be raised in a second, arrows cannot be effectively utilized lest the peasants either know how to use the bows (if they have been living on the lord’s land, where hunting was usually illegal, then most of the time this was not the case) or have the strength to wield the weapon in battle. And the final - and most important point - to stress about arrows is this: modern tests on medieval arrows have shown that their penetrating power is only significant when within a couple dozen yards of the target. This means that arrows are not an effective long-range deterrent against armored cavalry - such as knights - whose multi-layered armor (which included several “arrow-grabbing” layers of chainmail and leather) was often able to either capture the arrow or deflect it altogether. A crossbow maintained it’s momentum long after having fired, and could penetrate thick armor at a much further distance.

So, there you have it. Make your decision. And, remember this: longbows began to be phased out in the 1600s. Crossbows were still used a few decades after that.

-Eeofol

PS: To Almohed. You need to think about this a little more. The most important thing you need to figure out is how water is transported to your soldiers. Remember: the population of 30,000 was concentrated around the few watering holes. For the number of soldiers you are sending into this place, I doubt you can sustain any sort of fortification for a long period of time. You’d need to import water to any fortress. There’s a reason no one has tried to conquer the Sahara for very long (the French conquests were more of a zip in, slaughter, zip out phenomena). Even coastal cities need fresh water. And, alas, there are not many fresh wells that close to the city. But, again, that’s just my opinion.

Yeah I know, water is the only block in my way. But it is a minor block. Its not hard to turn salt water into fresh water, it just takes a really long time. I don't plan on having any settlements in desert. That's just simply ludicrous. In fact, if you believe it, I'm going to leave the watering hole settlements alone as well. They will just slowly be integrated into Almodite life. If you really want to know why I want the Sahara: salt, and iron. Salt is still quite a commodity, and will be useful for trading. Sahara has an abundance of phosphates. Also, iron is in abundance, and will be useful in weapons manufacturing. There: my secrets about the Sahara revealed. Hope ya'll understand why I am taking it over now.

Later Edit:

Also, I figure I should include this just so ya'll know. Sahara is not just a desert. It allows me access to the following resources:

Salt
Iron Ore
Manganese
Lead
Zinc
Phosphates
Gypsum
Copper
Diamonds
Gold
Oil
Titanium (doesn't help)
Tin
Zircon (doesn't help)
Silica Sand
Clay
Petroleum
Timber
Bauxite (doesn't help)
Granite
Limestone
Chromite (doesn't help)
Kaolin
Uranium (doesn't help for most purposes)

i belive, when it comes to long bows, that people are thinking of the welsh and .. where was it.. somewhere in south east england, i think, longbows. the law was such that everyone got lots of archery training, without pay, as it was vertualy the only thing a guy could legaly do on a sunday appart from attend church, sleep, and eat. so training wasn't too big an issue. and the archeres themselves tended to manufacture their arrows.

admitadly they Still sucked if they got wet, but even a protected musket is only good for one, mabey two if you're lucky, shots when wet.

whoever argued that longbows were area effect weapons? guess what: so were muskets untill the advent of rifleing. at least if you wished to use them as an effective military weapon. each has advantages and disadvantages, but the english/welsh longbow [possibly a great-bow, actually...] with the associated training mechanisem, is, generaly speaking, supperior to any and all man portable firearms in every way except length of training, untill the rifle [for skermishers] and the breachloading rifle [for line infantry] especially in an era when guns were the norm [taht's some centureys into the future, i'm aware] and the only soldiers to wear ANY armor were melee cavelry, and even they wore less than a knight.

the relitive merits of crossbows, however, i don't know. they fire slower than a long bow, but are more accurate... i suspect, however, that only the best could outrange a welsh longbow.

... and now mum's distracting me with talk of inheritances, so i lost my point.. i had one :P

basicly, i would acknowldege taht of equivilant technological level crossbows and bows, normaly, the cross bow is supperior for an armed formation, but ENGLISH and WELSH longbowmen, especially when supported by decent melee troops, pikemen for preferance, are generaly supprior to most other times of ranged infantry [note: this is not just the weapon, but the military unit] untill someone starts fireling breachloading rifles at them.

an advantage both types of bow have over the musket, however, is this: there's a wall in the way? oh well, i'll just shoot over it :P cover to teh frount is.. less effective agianst bows. and i suspect it's less effective stilla gainst long bows than cross bows, but that's a guess.

the sahara issue wasn't the why so much as the how.

and.. i don't think the salt is in the form of salt water there.. though i could be wrong.

He means the spice. Spices are incredibly valuable at this time, and the Sahara is rich in the stuff minerally(Yes Salt is a mineral).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469057

Antanjyl, when you have the time send a diplomat?

The salt is easiest to obtain, you just take a bunch of the salt water, let it evaporate until you get a bunch of salt crystals, and that is pure salt. Tastes great, but I don't really have a problem with salt as I control the Dead Sea (ROFL!!!). Anyway, I understand about the how. It is going to be tough, but it will not be a big strain on my resources. I can send re-inforcements in any time I wish if need be. I only have 85,000 in Spizania right now. The rest are in secure territory. I promise it will pan out, its not like I'm attacking the British :P (sorry for the blow Scan...no offense).

Almohed were you interested in sending a diplomat to Ostia? if so i would like to hold a diplomatic discussion in the capital

Reallydrunk']http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=469057

Antanjyl, when you have the time send a diplomat?

I am rather far from you. I suppose I can send one of my exploratory fleets to your nation eventually. What with my army moving forward with the Scandinvans to take that little cluster of Northern Europe.

Yes, that would be great. I think we may share some intrests in the near future...

It really depends though. Is your principle religion the old Roman Pantheon or is your nation Early Christian? Thats the main block between any chance of an alliance.

It is Early Christian. Religion has developed alot in my nation, although they still practice the old ways, religion has come far.

Our nation is a non-Christian Theocracy. That'll probably put a damper on any actual alliances or the like, not to mention our history. Though I'll send that exploratory fleet.

I beleive some good will come out of it, if not an alliance...then maybe an understanding and agreement?

Sure Ostia.

If there is still room, I would like to join this RP. I am interested in RPing my country back before it got litteraly bought out by the major economic powers within itself. (Odd story, involving mass bribery and an entire army changing hands within a handful of hours)

My country is mostly peaceful, and highly economically focused. If there is space, I think it would be somewhere in north eastern europe, maybe in Germany or Poland.

(As a side note, don't let the "mostly peaceful" bit fool you, most of my country's rulers had a reputation as shrewd, manipulative and sometimes even ruthless.)

My country had the same name then as it does now: Istanil

join in, sounds good

The salt is easiest to obtain, you just take a bunch of the salt water, let it evaporate until you get a bunch of salt crystals, and that is pure salt. Tastes great, but I don't really have a problem with salt as I control the Dead Sea (ROFL!!!). Anyway, I understand about the how. It is going to be tough, but it will not be a big strain on my resources. I can send re-inforcements in any time I wish if need be. I only have 85,000 in Spizania right now. The rest are in secure territory. I promise it will pan out, its not like I'm attacking the British :P (sorry for the blow Scan...no offense).

Er...about that...

...you see, distilation (the art of evaporating poluted water and capturing the purified water) is not, well, easy to do at this time. True, you can get salt in small quantaties by boiling the saltwater, but - once more - you need to RP how you get water to your soldiers. Remember, water is very heavy. 8.34 Lbs per gallon of water, and the human body needs about a half-gallon of water a day to remain healthy. Even if you stretch that out, you're going to be moving 8.34 lbs per two-three people. An army of 10,000 strong, if they really didn't need to drink much (and trust me, you drink more in the desert if it's hotter) and only used one gallon per three people would need to carry approximately 3597.12 pounds of water a day. Not including water to cook, shave, bathe, etc. Now, if you stay for a week, that number increases to 25179.85 Pounds of water a week. Assuming you have weekly shipping runs, that means you need to safely convey about 25,180 lbs of water per 10,000 men. Again, that's only if it's one gallon per three soldiers. Trust me, they're going to use more.

So, I mean, if you have the time, resources, meathod to transport, and other such means to get the water to your soldiers, that's great. Go for it.

Also, food's a concern. Remember, if this is around the 1400s armies survived off of the land they pillaged. It wasn't until the 1600s did such a practice desist (due to massive peasant killings and crop damage in Germany). You'll need to import food regularly. If your cargo ships are very primative, it may be impossible. Also, if you have any perishable foodstuffs then you'll have to replace them almost every other day - due to the increased heat of the Sahara.

Just throwing this out there. I mean, I think a more realistic "attack" would be to take over a few coastal villages/forts (like what happened IRL), and settle with that. Fewer soldiers, you still have influence over the barren desertland, and - more importantly - North Africa's western coast is yours to control.

If anything, Tadjik, and I say this as one largely dependent on muskets, you overstate the bow's weaknesses, and understate those of the musket.

However, one or two things, the sources I have come across suggest trained men being capable of 4 shots a minute with flintlocks, and with the matchlocks we've agreed are more appropriate here, 3 shots. Not the one you quote. And the 20-22 mm sounds too high. Somehow I have the idea of more like 1/3-1/2 an inch. Finally, the flintlock was not accurate beyond 80 yards. Only with flintlock rifles, which went down to around 1 or 2 shots a minute, could that be reliably bettered.

Anyways. I think in current conditions the battlefield relation of muskets and bows is fairly balanced, swung for me by the fact that new recruits are better off with muskets; swung for Frozo the other way (for example) by the fact their men are professionals.

There is a musket at 1.5m from me right now and it has a 22mm calibre, Matchlock muskets had even bigger calibres, since they were derived from handheld guns. And 4 shots with a musket is alot, I remember reloading a percussion rifle took 30 seconds.

not 100% sure if it's relevant or not, but in the napolionic wars, the very Best of the british redcoats could get off 5 rounds a minute with their standard muskets. however, i don't think they ever got enough of such skill in one place to form a unit that could do it. they might have but i don't think they did.

tipical well drilled redcoats, and above average french infantry could do 4

if you couldn't do 3 by the time you went into battle, you failed at being worth the cost of your uniform. err.. british infantry that is. i'm reasonably sure at various points there were other armys at the time which were lucky to get off 2.

If we're in 1400s, then we probably only have the equivalent of the Hand Gonne invented.

I found a decent enough article online, that basicly summarizes it:

"The earliest 'hand gonne' was developed in the fifteenth century, but was not a great influence in battle. It was a small cannon with a touch-hole for ignition. It was unsteady, required that the user prop it on a stand, brace it with one hand against his chest and use his other hand to touch a lighted match to the touch-hole, and had an effective range of only about thirty to fourty yards. It surely must have taken iron nerves to use one of these against a charging knight, nearly within his lance's reach, when the powder might not even ignite."

Then comes the flash-pan:

"Users of primitive cannons and 'hand gonnes' came to realize that a more reliable ignition system was needed. It was just too difficult to use one hand to touch a lit match to an open hole in the gun barrel in the heat of battle while trying to hold the gun steady with the other hand. Also, there was often not enough gunpowder exposed at the touch-hole to ignite reliably. So, the gun designers had to come up with a more reliable system to get the gunpowder lit in a hurry.

Eventually, a clever invention was devised to solve the problem. The touch hole was moved to the side of the gun barrel, and a cup was placed at the opening with a lid on it. This cup would hold a small amount of gunpowder which could be easily ignited. When the powder began to burn, some of the fire would go through the touch hole and ignite the gunpowder inside the barrel, thereby firing the gun. This cup was called the "Flash Pan". The cover on the flash pan prevented the powder from blowing away in the wind or from getting wet in a fog. The above animation shows a top view of a gun barrel with flash pan.

All the later ignition systems on guns with a flash pan were designed to automatically ignite the gunpowder in the flash pan at the press of a lever or trigger. This was accomplished by either putting the end of a burning wick into the flash pan or using a flint and steel combination to throw sparks into the flash pan."

Finally, in the mid 1400s, you have the matchlock. I liked how this article made mention of how matchlock rifles were mostly for intimidation. Just to add onto the Gonne weapon, earlier firearms were basicly used to freak out horses. Their actuall penetrating power was almost nil.

"The Matchlock was a welcome improvement in the mid-fifteenth century and remained in use even into the early 1700s, when it was much cheaper to mass produce than the better classes of firearms with more sophisticated ignition systems. The Matchlock secured a lighted wick in a moveable arm which, when the trigger was depressed, was brought down against the flash pan to ignite the powder. This allowed the musketeer to keep both hands on the gun, improving his aim drastically. The gun had its weaknesses, though. It took time to ignite the end of the wick, which left the musketeer useless in case of a surprise attack. Also, it was difficult to keep the wick burning in damp weather. For the most part, longbowmen were more effective in battle than the musketeers. The one real advantage the musketeers possessed was the intimidation factor which their weapons provided. The first important use of musketeers was in 1530 when Francis I organized units of arquebusiers or matchlock musketeers in the French army.
By 1540 the matchlock design was improved to include a cover plate over the flash pan which automatically retracted as the trigger was pressed.

The matchlock was the primary firearm used in the conquering of the New World. In time, the Native Americans (Indians) discovered the weaknesses of this form of ignition and learned to take advantage of them. Even Henry Hudson was defeated by an Indian surprise attack in 1609 due to unlit matches. The matchlock was introduced by Portuguese traders to Eastern countries around 1498, particularly India and Japan, and was used by them well into the 19th century."

Something VERY important to remember for those playing as Asiatic nations is that musket-type weapons were not really used by those empires. Rockets - pioneered by the Korean Kingdoms in the War of the Three Kingdoms - were the mainstay gunpowder weapon of choice.

---

Just a little FYI, for the first "factbook" on Eeofol, I'm about 60% done. Working on it, still...

There is a musket at 1.5m from me right now and it has a 22mm calibre, Matchlock muskets had even bigger calibres, since they were derived from handheld guns. And 4 shots with a musket is alot, I remember reloading a percussion rifle took 30 seconds.

Yep. But is that a musket built in the 1400s? Probably not.


Thanks for the information Eeofol. Make sure to link it here once you finish.

so, end result of this is, as i see it: man portable gunpowder weapons = worthless unless fired from on walls and behind cover or against cavelry from behind pikes, yes? also scary.

longbows= awsome if you can get the men trained, high rate of fire

Crossbows = very very good if you have the manufacturing ability to produce high quality ones in large numbers low training time.

am i right on the over all merits of various things there?

then you have your various types of cannon, the worth of wich depends on your manufactureing capabilitys, Most of them are pretty garbage and only any good as seige weapons.

catipults and balista depend on the skill of the craftsmen makeing them, and the skill in balistics of the crews useing them, best at takeing out fortifications, though the right kind of amunition can do in troops as well

rockets .. i'm guessing have a high range and very desvistateing effect when/if they hit, due to the fact that they go BOOM, or can have a stone "battering ram" type head...

Rams.. well, they're rams, arn't they? hard to kill from range, die easyly to fire, distroy fortifications.

an accurate, if less detailed, break down of ranged weapons at the time?

Yep. But is that a musket built in the 1400s? Probably not.


Thanks for the information Eeofol. Make sure to link it here once you finish.

Early 1900s, but thats why I said matchlock muskets have even bigger calibres.

Meh training is no problem for me. We have a simialar welsh policy (compulsory training) that is probably even more extreme.

Another popular sport among children in Frozopia is "Spearing." Which describes itself in the name. Young children use wooden blunt spears to ram other children into the ground. They also use a shield often.

Man my people are tough........

Lots and lots to read about gunpowder weapons. Nice to be reminded of the longbow's limitations though, since most people appear to be using them.:p

Anyways. I think tactics-wise I'm around tercios/Dutch Brigades, even if I'm not allowed their tech level just yet.

Meh training is no problem for me. We have a simialar welsh policy (compulsory training) that is probably even more extreme.

Another popular sport among children in Frozopia is "Spearing." Which describes itself in the name. Young children use wooden blunt spears to ram other children into the ground. They also use a shield often.

Man my people are tough........
Seems a bit mad, and useful. But then again, I've got the aborigniary people (Ace desert Hutners, know the desert lime the back of there hadns and will hunt you to death, sveral times. You better watch yourself on the hgihways.) Nad of course I've got my rainforest (Poisions, traps ambushes, again watch out of ambushes.

In fatc your going to have a very hard time getting from place to place. Many Austians survive on farming ect, odviously, and hunting of course so where used to killing/firing arrows. Most sutians know the bush and coutnry well, far better than your men who are sued to the cold.

That is a pouint. Your men a light skinned, blonds I'm presuming. (The average sort of complexiction for northern people.) used to cold conditions and adapted to them. That means your armour ect, will be adapted for the cold. Youi'll face massive problems getting from palce to place, similar to the type crusaders experienced. Your men have a choice march in full battle armour to avoidbeing shot at or march without armour and risk attacks.

This of course will tire out your horses very quickly. ever wondered why horse don't dso well in the desert? reamber, your horses are even worse coz there used to the cold. The heat is really going to be on for you in more ways than one.

Meh I will ignore the jungles and go around. Try to stick to your roads (I assume you have a mildy extensive road system for a civilised nation?) which will lead me to your cities, where the wealth and power is.

Meh I will ignore the jungles and go around. Try to stick to your roads (I assume you have a mildy extensive road system for a civilised nation?) which will lead me to your cities, where the wealth and power is.
yeah but my cities are spread far apart, mostly through desert. If you keep to the roads you run the risk of plenty of ambushes and pitfalls (We know where your going). My cites are walled and well defended as they all started out as frontier towns.

Thankfully, for me, my men wear seperate kears with heavier armor on the outside and the lighter armor is beneath. So that means if I enocounter hot conditions my men will just leave their plate mail at a base and switch to chain or scale mail. :D

Thankfully, for me, my men wear seperate kears with heavier armor on the outside and the lighter armor is beneath. So that means if I enocounter hot conditions my men will just leave their plate mail at a base and switch to chain or scale mail. :D
You ever worn mail? it's still very hot, and most people wear leathier underneath. What do you think the normans in the Holy Land wore? And they still boiled, even by just wearing Helmates. And al.l your men wear plate mail, how many men do you have. plate mail is incredably hard to make and expensive.

55,000 of my men wear plate mail out of my whole army of 240,000 soldiers. Also I am not planning on invading any southern nations for a while. As for your argument on heavier armor you are right, as that only a few Arabs wore heavy armor, but I also remember that since most of them wore cloth armor they wore at a disadvantage, fighting man to man, when fighting crusaders during the winter or when they fought in cool climates.

I will be risk at ambushes everywhere. You can predict and track the route of a large army easily, even if I take a walk through the country side.

And who knows? If I get naval superiority I can ship my men around.

55,000 of my men wear plate mail out of my whole army of 240,000 soldiers. Also I am not planning on invading any southern nations for a while. As for your argument on heavier armor you are right, as that only a few Arabs wore heavy armor, but I also remember that since most of them wore cloth armor they wore at a disadvantage, fighting man to man, when fighting crusaders during the winter or when they fought in cool climates.
Actually the crusaders won about 1 battle (And that wasn't really won. The arabs just dedcided to retreat and tire the enermy out.) The weather dosn't vary that much in Oz so my freind heres going to be udner MASSIVE problems from ehat exaution.

55000
Thats rediculous man. At the time only wealthy nobles wore plate armour, which is like 1/200 men.

Aust, really then my memory is getting rusty and now I hace to read my book about the crusades again. Or I may be thinking that the Crusaders attacked in the winter mostly?

Frozopia, my plates, save the knights, all my armor is goverment owned and also are made by about 7,200 slave blacksmiths and 1,800 Valgardian craftsmen.

Er...about that...

...you see, distilation (the art of evaporating poluted water and capturing the purified water) is not, well, easy to do at this time. True, you can get salt in small quantaties by boiling the saltwater, but - once more - you need to RP how you get water to your soldiers. Remember, water is very heavy. 8.34 Lbs per gallon of water, and the human body needs about a half-gallon of water a day to remain healthy. Even if you stretch that out, you're going to be moving 8.34 lbs per two-three people. An army of 10,000 strong, if they really didn't need to drink much (and trust me, you drink more in the desert if it's hotter) and only used one gallon per three people would need to carry approximately 3597.12 pounds of water a day. Not including water to cook, shave, bathe, etc. Now, if you stay for a week, that number increases to 25179.85 Pounds of water a week. Assuming you have weekly shipping runs, that means you need to safely convey about 25,180 lbs of water per 10,000 men. Again, that's only if it's one gallon per three soldiers. Trust me, they're going to use more.

So, I mean, if you have the time, resources, meathod to transport, and other such means to get the water to your soldiers, that's great. Go for it.

Also, food's a concern. Remember, if this is around the 1400s armies survived off of the land they pillaged. It wasn't until the 1600s did such a practice desist (due to massive peasant killings and crop damage in Germany). You'll need to import food regularly. If your cargo ships are very primative, it may be impossible. Also, if you have any perishable foodstuffs then you'll have to replace them almost every other day - due to the increased heat of the Sahara.

Just throwing this out there. I mean, I think a more realistic "attack" would be to take over a few coastal villages/forts (like what happened IRL), and settle with that. Fewer soldiers, you still have influence over the barren desertland, and - more importantly - North Africa's western coast is yours to control.

Ah you misread, I was stating how to obtain salt, not pure water.

Second, food is not an issue. Suleiman's troops survived off of spices, flour and water: a form of gravy. As long as I have water, my troops can survive. I have plenty of spices and flour.

55,000 of my men wear plate mail out of my whole army of 240,000 soldiers. Also I am not planning on invading any southern nations for a while. As for your argument on heavier armor you are right, as that only a few Arabs wore heavy armor, but I also remember that since most of them wore cloth armor they wore at a disadvantage, fighting man to man, when fighting crusaders during the winter or when they fought in cool climates.

Sorry if I say this, but Jesus Christ Monkey Balls?! 240,000 Soldiers?! You do realize that even up to the 1500s, 50,000 men was concidered a massive army.

That aside, your logic with mail is, well, very odd. Heat is not the issue with full plated mail. The issue is weight and manuverability (and expense). Equipping 55,000 men with full-plate mail is the same as saying everyone in the US army gets a tank.

With the exception of fortified positions where long-distance marches were less of an issue, full-plated mail is almost impossible to have for non-mounted soldiers to march over long distances.

If you're trying to replicate Viking-style soldiers, they primarily wore hide-armor with banded mail atop it.

Even with thousands of craftsmen/slaves working on the male, the issue is energy. Do you realize how much energy - especially for medieval technology - it takes to make a sword? Let alone a full plate.

It wasn't the armor that was expensive, nor was it the craftsmanship - it was the energy. Assuming you had just enough plate mail for each of the 55,000 men you'd be cutting down most of your forests and burning them in smelters. That doesn't leave much, of course, in the way of heating, food-preparation, and shipbuilding.

If you want sturdy, easy-to-produce, effective mail then use chainmail. It's simple enough. Hell, most of my armies use chainmail or a thin breastplate with padding on the inside (only for the more illustrious positions). But, 55,000 soldiers with full plate mail is rediculous.

I'm still amaised by the almost 200,000 soldiers. That just wouldn't happen. Armies would be approximately 5-6% of the entire population. That's assuming, of course, you had enough money and organization to pay for the soldiers. I mean, Edward III at Crecy only had 15,000 soldiers - and that was concidered an effective fighting force.

Eeofol is going to have a fighting force of about 56,000 soldiers - quite large by Medieval standards.

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And on the Crusaides - it depends on what you mean by "won." The Crusades all ended poorly, and often the Arabs employed hit and run tactics. The Europeans made enormous advances into the Holy Land. But, this is what the defenders wanted. Usually, Crusaders would fight their way into a city or fortification, be completely exhaused, and then be set apon at night and be utterly eliminated.

Ah you misread, I was stating how to obtain salt, not pure water.

Second, food is not an issue. Suleiman's troops survived off of spices, flour and water: a form of gravy. As long as I have water, my troops can survive. I have plenty of spices and flour.

Do'h! I meant to quote your earlier post. Sorry!

That aside, how do you plan to deliver water to your people? Also, remember, that fresh flour often gets meally. There's a reason why hard-tac (which is what my soldiers survive off of) is common army fodder.

so, end result of this is, as i see it: man portable gunpowder weapons = worthless unless fired from on walls and behind cover or against cavelry from behind pikes, yes? also scary.

longbows= awsome if you can get the men trained, high rate of fire

Crossbows = very very good if you have the manufacturing ability to produce high quality ones in large numbers low training time.

am i right on the over all merits of various things there?

then you have your various types of cannon, the worth of wich depends on your manufactureing capabilitys, Most of them are pretty garbage and only any good as seige weapons.

catipults and balista depend on the skill of the craftsmen makeing them, and the skill in balistics of the crews useing them, best at takeing out fortifications, though the right kind of amunition can do in troops as well

rockets .. i'm guessing have a high range and very desvistateing effect when/if they hit, due to the fact that they go BOOM, or can have a stone "battering ram" type head...

Rams.. well, they're rams, arn't they? hard to kill from range, die easyly to fire, distroy fortifications.

an accurate, if less detailed, break down of ranged weapons at the time?

Ah, about Cannons, Catapults, n' rockets. A few things.

Cannon technology is actually increasing by this time period. Remember, there's enough skill in cannon making that the Turks were able to employ the massive siege cannons that broke the walls of Constantinople in 1453. Though, to be fair, cannons are still very crude. The main problem is that they're slow to fire, hard to aim (no trigonomitry yet, folks!), and difficult to manufacture.

Rockets were essentially gunpowder-propelled fire arrows. As one site I found said, "The fire arrows carried flammable materials or sometimes poison-coated heads. In a form more closely resembling modern rockets, the gunpowder tube was lengthened to the tip of the arrow and given a pointed nose, eliminating the need for a traditional arrowhead.

Once it was discovered that the fire arrows flew a straight path even after their feathers were burned up by the gunpowder exhaust, the feathers were completely removed. The resulting fire arrow was quite similar in appearance to fireworks used today.

The Chinese typically launched these fire arrows in salvoes from arrays of cylinders or boxes which could hold as many as 1,000 fire arrows each. The fire arrows propelled by gunpowder may have had a range of up to 1,000 feet.

The use of gunpowder propelled weapons proliferated in the coming centuries, especially after their existence was confirmed by Europeans. In 1232, descriptions of a Mongolian siege of the city of Kai-fung-fu were widely circulated.

During this battle, the Mongols employed a potent form of fire arrow described as causing "thunder that shakes the heavens". These may have been primitive grenades launched by gunpowder propelled fire arrows. A single one of these was reportedly able to burn a 2,000 foot area.

In 1258, the Mongols were reported to have used gunpowder propelled fire arrows in their effort to capture the Arab city of Baghdad. The Mongols reportedly launched gunpowder propelled fire arrows from ships during their attacks on Japan in 1274 and 1281.
are actually pretty easy to make, but they're incredibly innacturate. "Rockets" have the gunpowder still inside the missile when it fires, creating a highly unpredictable trail that can explode on contact. Also, it has very short range due to the speed at which the gunpowder was consumed."

China, Korea, and Japan were all using those by the 13th century.

Rockets were first mentioned in Europe around 1379 in Itally. And, by 1405, Konrad Kyser von Eichstadt wrote "Bellifortis" (War Fortifications) which described war rockets in use at the time.

However, Rockets are sparsingly used in Europe till the mid 15th century. It is well documented that Jon of Arc used rockets in the seiges of Orleans, Pont-Andemer, , Bordeaux , and Gand.

As for Catapults and the like, you're dead on. It did depend on the craftsmanship of the manufacturer and the skill of the seige engineers. Something to remember, though, is that early mathmaticians had to be employed to accurately fire these siege weapons. After all: a trebuchette is almost impossible to aim properly. Without math, the projectile would fall short or fly too far.

Sorry for the tripple post, but I'm just responding as I come along to stuff...

Hmm I'll probably need to drop my military down a few pegs. Though then again thirteen million people in my population are slaves, while only around ten million are not. I wonder if I should count slavers as members of my navy, since by and large they only go around abducting people...

heh.... i was meaning to mention the accuracy thing with the rockets.. not sure how i forgot. on the other hand, i was thinking of the rockets the british used sometime after the napolionic wars... which were, well... giant skyrockets, basicly *laughs*

fired off of what amounted to racks of half pipes, they were horrificaly inaccurate. the only place they were garanteed not ot hit was about a significant way behind the launch site [if i'm remembering rightly] but they were Devistateing if they did.

as for the stone "ram" head thingy.. i saw it in a movie *shrugs*

humm.. meanwhile, is it just me, or did the RP just kinda.... Stop...? in every thread i'm involved in... nothing is happening :S

heh. i, personaly, am avoiding the vast majority of the "what is and isn't technologicaly possible" simply by not haveing my troops have access to tradtional ranged weapons [they'll gain some.. interesting.. things eventually though] or easyly workable metals. infact, the only metal they have, that i'm sure they would have the capacity to do anything with, is gold. and.. coal isn't a metal, but there's a decent amount of that too.

What I get for trying to be a technologically advanced nation...I'm in the thick of most of the disputes over tech-level. Most of the threads I'm involved in are at best ticking over.

Sorry if I say this, but Jesus Christ Monkey Balls?! 240,000 Soldiers?! You do realize that even up to the 1500s, 50,000 men was concidered a massive army.

That aside, your logic with mail is, well, very odd. Heat is not the issue with full plated mail. The issue is weight and manuverability (and expense). Equipping 55,000 men with full-plate mail is the same as saying everyone in the US army gets a tank.

With the exception of fortified positions where long-distance marches were less of an issue, full-plated mail is almost impossible to have for non-mounted soldiers to march over long distances.

If you're trying to replicate Viking-style soldiers, they primarily wore hide-armor with banded mail atop it.

Even with thousands of craftsmen/slaves working on the male, the issue is energy. Do you realize how much energy - especially for medieval technology - it takes to make a sword? Let alone a full plate.

It wasn't the armor that was expensive, nor was it the craftsmanship - it was the energy. Assuming you had just enough plate mail for each of the 55,000 men you'd be cutting down most of your forests and burning them in smelters. That doesn't leave much, of course, in the way of heating, food-preparation, and shipbuilding.

If you want sturdy, easy-to-produce, effective mail then use chainmail. It's simple enough. Hell, most of my armies use chainmail or a thin breastplate with padding on the inside (only for the more illustrious positions). But, 55,000 soldiers with full plate mail is rediculous.

I'm still amaised by the almost 200,000 soldiers. That just wouldn't happen. Armies would be approximately 5-6% of the entire population. That's assuming, of course, you had enough money and organization to pay for the soldiers. I mean, Edward III at Crecy only had 15,000 soldiers - and that was concidered an effective fighting force.

Eeofol is going to have a fighting force of about 56,000 soldiers - quite large by Medieval standards.


Eeofol...lol...I have something around a proffesional trained Imperial Army of nearly 1 million, but it usually stays at 900,000. Its never of course all together unless the Emperor has some idea to do that, but usually not. He has dozens of generals who command different groups and divisions of them, like a 100,000 of them in one army 340,000 in another; it all depends on the types of war-zone they will enter.

As for armour nearly all my men are equipted with light silk-wooden laquered armour. (imagine samurai armour and you'll be close to what it is) Only my heavy cavalry have metal plates made in their armour. My pike men are the most heavily armoured of my infantry, wearing a combination fo plates, laquered wood, and heavy silks. But usually my forces are not very much in the way of armoured plates, although our shields are of iron sheets.

As far as gunpowder is concerned, I use a type of rocket. 4ft long large bamboo tube with a dragon's head at the end signifying the place where it shoots out. Imagine the rockets in the movie "Mulan", and you got 'em. Over all muskets or matchlocks or anything are not even touched by any members of my army. The Imperial School has several working models and uses them with tests, but they have not been seen as useful weapons of war. However we do have cannons.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Han%20Empire/image004.jpg

This drawing was supposedly from a cannon used by the chinese in the early 1300s. It was liable to explode 2 out of every 5 shots. Many times any army carrying these babies would have as many as 30 spare barrels.

And for those fire-arrow things that Eeofel was speaking about:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b184/Upum/Han%20Empire/image006.jpg

Highly effective in offensive and defensive warfare. Though I haven't used them yet in any of my rps.

yea, thats me right there (post above) just so no one is confused.

Armies are quite big in this RP, mainly because we have large populations.
But remember 5% should really cover your navy also.

I dont think much of rockets. At most distances (say above 20+ yards?) they will miss.

But if you wait till the enemy are close, so close that they can barely escape, and unleash a horde of missiles really fast, prepare for some serious ownage.

I have a feeling Angermanland reads sharpe books. :D

Right, I flatter myself by considering that I have effected somewhat of a diplomatic revolution in the Pacific war ongoing by changing sides....

Anyways, I have attempted to ICily inform everyone. Feel free to ignore it for a bit if you're a significant journey time away, but the message is coming.

My other interests are going to be more active now I've freed up my forces. So the part of Indochina Oda left, the Phillipines, and possibly parts of Kilani, better watch out :D

The Frozopians will keep their word, its a vice they have, so you dont need to worry about an invasion at home while you extend your interests. As long as you dont attack an ally. Of course you might not trust us, which is fair enough.

Kiriusubo will you give up the Phillipines peacefully? The Terror Incognitians have promised peace between us if you do so.

Right, I flatter myself by considering that I have effected somewhat of a diplomatic revolution in the Pacific war ongoing by changing sides....

Anyways, I have attempted to ICily inform everyone. Feel free to ignore it for a bit if you're a significant journey time away, but the message is coming.

My other interests are going to be more active now I've freed up my forces. So the part of Indochina Oda left, the Phillipines, and possibly parts of Kilani, better watch out :D
You are a bastrad. A real, real bastrad. You do realise that you've made yourselves sworn enermys of Aust by doing this?

I think you have enough enemies as it is. Perhaps if you can defeat our army, there can be a reckoning.

Armies are quite big in this RP, mainly because we have large populations.

...

I have a feeling Angermanland reads sharpe books. :D


yeah, i do *laughs* however, i don't remember the rockets in them... they were mentioned in a few other things though.. includeing a "flashman" book... yeah.. like THOSE are reliable :P but it's the only one i remember "that was in that"

Hey dont insult Flashman! He may be a rapist, a coward, a idiot but but but......Hm.

Well its in one of the Sharpe books where missiles are used alot. Cant remember which one.

Wow... Terror, you switched sides? Hmm... perhaps this is time for me to do some things... well, we'll see.

Anyway, I have around 300,000 elves in my navy, but that's only 1% of my population. I pretty much don't have a standing army, but I do have a few defense forces on islands and in Venezuela and such that are probably a several thousand men. They're essentially land-based marines.

Caladonnians rarely use heavy armour, because their penchant for fighting at sea makes it dangerous and impractical. They do, however, usually wear chain mail, as well as using large shields (Only bucklers while using longbows though). As for weaponry, the Marines and sailors use Longbows, while the 'village green yeoman thing' is mandatory. However, crossbows are occasionally used when militia forces with little experience are needed. Caladonn compensates for its advanced cannon designs by having no cavalry, rockets, or handguns whatsoever.

the sad thing about Terror switching sides, is that it essentually forces me to as well. lots of reasons, but the greatest one is, he's RIGHT THERE. with all the tech, too.

fear not, however, as this "switching sides" basicly amounts to a mercianry unit of, at best, 1000 men helping out Terror's troops, weather they go after Aust or head for asia, and a lack of harrasement for the invaders, so long as they don't try and LAND on my islands.

Hey dont insult Flashman! He may be a rapist, a coward, a idiot but but but......Hm.

Well its in one of the Sharpe books where missiles are used alot. Cant remember which one.

Probibly one fo the indian ones. near the begining of his carrier. they weren't accurate enough for use against the french.

assuming that word gets back to the shogun he'd be agreeable to giving up the philipines.

we never wanted them in the first place. all we were after was a toe hold so a supply base for military and merchant ships could be built.

if terror is going to do that for us there'd be no problem agreeing to this.

Hehe. I seem to've surprised a few people at least.

I know Aust will hate me forever. Hopefully they won't fight me when it's not in their interests to do so. Like now. However, I fully expect the heads of the sloop's crew back on plates.

My reasoning is
1) national interest.
2) I get to do a quiet bit of expansion, rather than forever be focussed on the invasion. Everyone else has been expanding and I've been standing still.
3) Gotta respect the sheer cheek of the Frozopians, turning up with a diplomat, just expecting me to let them through.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that rockets were used, uselessly and on a small scale, in the Peninsular War. (Sharpe, I admit it, but one of the factual bits methinks.)

Kiri, for the Philippines I think a bit of repair/resupply isn't too much of a price to pay.

kirisubo can still expand south. i'm still missing the rest of Nansei province (Okinawa and her chain) and Formosa (thats Taiwan to everyone else).

Any expansion won't take place until they feel secure enough to do it.

Ok. A message is going to the invasion fleet, could probably go on from there to your home islands, make arrangements. Oh yeah, probably about time I let your men go...

Hmm...an interesting change of events. Very interesting. *rubs chin* I wonder how the Middle Kingdom can profit from this situation...*evil smile*

Also, Toops has failed to reply for fully two weeks now in his invasion thread, trying to beat past my Great Wall. I am therefore assuming that his invasion has mysteriously disapeared. Also because he is sitting upon what has become Milchama (is he active?) and was there before the creation of that nation. My two provincial armies are standing down and the Imperial Wall Garrison is going back to a lower alert level.