NationStates Jolt Archive

oh.. crud. another seige :(

umm, any information about the surrounding area and so on?

a map would be ideal, but a simple discription would help quite a lot.

Similar in size and basic layout to Craen Punica, except its on a strip of narrow plain between the sea and a tall mountain, the city extends from the top of the mountain to the seashore with the walls running all the way up both sides and allong the seafront, at the top of the mountain the walls are built into the reverse face of the mountain, a one hundred fifty feet shear drop, that side is pretty much impassable which leaves you with three options, come at the city from the plains or from the sea.

Similar in size and basic layout to Craen Punica, except its on a strip of narrow plain between the sea and a tall mountain, the city extends from the top of the mountain to the seashore with the walls running all the way up both sides and allong the seafront, at the top of the mountain the walls are built into the reverse face of the mountain, a one hundred fifty feet shear drop, that side is pretty much impassable which leaves you with three options, come at the city from the plains or from the sea.


that sounds rediculously huge unless the mountain is right by the sea...

anyways.. assumeing the plane goes north, that's what i'd be doing.. humm, the mountains extend further north, do they not?

that may work to my advantage: higher launch point =greater flight time for hawks :D

The plain is only about two miles wide at the city. And the mountains do extend a bit further north, although most of those would be impossible to climb carrying the equipment to set up a platform for a hawk

yeah, i was thinking the setup bit would be tricky.

two miles, huh? *thinks* that's.. what, in kilometers?

i'm reasonably sure i can fit my camps in ok, *thinks* actually, again, that could work to my advantage. at least if you decide to come out and attack, or bring troops up on my rear.

Spizania, as for trebuchets, feel free. They really don't work at sea, due to the difficulties of firing from an unstable, moving platform against another moving target, but on land they'd work pretty well.

on a somewhat unrelated note:

the british first used rockets specificly for fireing from ships due to their lack of recoil. they mounted them on smaller ships, faceing forward from the bow.

which leads me to suspect they would have done the same with trebuchets if it were viable :D

I have created these two lists to show who has the strongest navies and armies, forming up of those who have the three strongest of each.

Strongest Army:
1. The Scandinvans (not the largest, probably)
2. {NS} Reallydrunk
3. Not Sure

Strongest Navy:
1. Caladonn
2 Terror Incognito
3. Likely Spizania or Angermanland

Im talking about firing them from the top of the cities walls against warships that are trying to maneuvre to bombard said city.
Maybe rockets are the answer

I would say Han or my own army is the strongest......

And Terror having a strong navy. Maybe ahead of Spizania in 3rd.

Im talking about firing them from the top of the cities walls against warships that are trying to maneuvre to bombard said city.
Maybe rockets are the answer


rockets have the most truely horrible accuracy you can imagine. any other weapon you'd have to aim at about 100 degrees off target to be as bad :p

but, when/if they hit, they're nasty. very very nasty. though, as a declineing empire, it's unlikely that you'd have them? the Han have the really primitive early chinese sort i think, and my tech peeps are working on developing something british-esque, which is what would be needed, really..

men *shrugs* i dunno. but at this point rockets are proiblby not the best. heck, my "boom tubes" are balista launched :D

Um, Scandinvans, no offence, but my navy is in 2nd. It's only smaller than Caladonn's, and it's only lower-tech than Caladonn's. Angermanland has...some funky stuff, but he has 3 ships that could take on ships of the line in line of battle (building more though) - and Spizania, while I don't know the size of his navy, doesn't even have cannon yet.

That aside, as far as I'm aware a trebuchet ON a wall is impractical. Not least because I have never seen an example of it's being done in practice. They're entirely capable of firing OVER a wall, just not sitting on top.

Why? Can you think of any engineering reasons why i cant do it?

Apart from the size your wall would have to be, and thus the sheer expense of the wall, both in building and maintenance, no. It's probably technically possible, just for less expense you could have more towers, and half a dozen trebuchet inside the wall capable of firing over it.

Um, Scandinvans, no offence, but my navy is in 2nd.
Sorry, about that Terror, I have fixed it and as well am working on a couple new military lists to be put up for review.

No worries, if I tried to put together a "strongest army" list I'd get it totally in the wrong order.

Most Professional Army(that are sizable enough on their own to wage a war):
1. Not Sure
2. [NS] Reallydrunk or The Scandinvans
3. Not Sure

Largest Army:
1, Oda
2. Probably Frozopia
3. The Scandinvans
_________________________________________________________
Well, I have to look back on the pages of this thread a lot to get the proper information and also I have to make some estimates that might be contradicted by people.

Mine is pretty professional, they train constantly and are extreemly well equiped, thats why there are very small numbers of them

Okay, fixed the lists to be more specfic.

Ostia should definitely be on one of those lists, probably the most professional one.

As for naval, yes, Terror should definitely be second, and as for third, I'm not really sure... If we had more info on Spizania's navy then perhaps that one. It strikes me that if Scandinvans' army is on both the army lists, he shouldn't also have a good navy.

As for rockets, they totally suck. I'm reading the Richard Sharpe series, set in 1812, which spreads some light on the Congreve rocket program- it could fire a huge amount of rockets in a short time, but they had no range or accuracy. They were less accurate than a musket. The only reason the British developed rockets is because the Prince of Wales had a passing craze with them, and everyone knows how crazy the British royal family was at that time (George III, anyone?).

Just a note for everyone, it's really impractical to fire any sort of angled weapon at/from a ship. The only weapons really effective on ships are firing strait, like ballistae or cannons.

The reason that catapults, rockets or trebuchets weren't used at or from ships is because: a) from ships, they have a really unstable and moving platform that will make them go wildly off target, and b) Attacking ships, they have almost no chance of hitting, due to the fact that your target is bobbing up and down, moving, and chances are pretty far away.

there were a whole bunch of different rockets though...

but yeah.. at this point we're not even talking congrieves. we're talking old school chinese rockets mostly. oversides fireworks, really. incindiraries.

meh *shrugs*

i'd top any "most unorthodox " lists, i bet :D

Caladonn, Ostia is played by [NS::]Reallydrunk.

Also, I have decided to concentrate on having only a strong home defense navy, aka my longboats, and as for my battleships I have decided to only have between 70-80 in peace times and possibly a few dozen more during times of war.

As well, Angermanland I am considering on making a most 'creative' list of miltary tatics.

Thank you for the compliments, Ostian armed forces are trained to be VERY professional, they train constantly and have the best infantry equipment avalible to them.

Disipline and tactics used by my troops make them what they are aside from their leadership.

Just to ask to help me make a good decision what is the size of your army [NS::]Reallydrunk?

My current army stands at 312,000 not including specials like Praetorians, marines and sailors. My military could gain about 25,000 more if i conscripted more. Most of the soldiers i have are conscripts but are trained to be professional, they don't receive a field posting untill they meet the highest standards.

The main field Ostia trains it's soldiers for is land therefore our infantry is of the highest quality.

*cough* I have an Imperial Army of between 800,000 - 950,000 men. And their all pretty competant, many being specialists with a single weapon, instead of like a legionairre who is good with sword and spear; I have men good with only a sword, good with only a spear, etc.

But yea, I probably have the largest army.

As for rockets, they totally suck. I'm reading the Richard Sharpe series, set in 1812, which spreads some light on the Congreve rocket program- it could fire a huge amount of rockets in a short time, but they had no range or accuracy. They were less accurate than a musket. The only reason the British developed rockets is because the Prince of Wales had a passing craze with them, and everyone knows how crazy the British royal family was at that time (George III, anyone?).

Just a note for everyone, it's really impractical to fire any sort of angled weapon at/from a ship. The only weapons really effective on ships are firing strait, like ballistae or cannons.

The reason that catapults, rockets or trebuchets weren't used at or from ships is because: a) from ships, they have a really unstable and moving platform that will make them go wildly off target, and b) Attacking ships, they have almost no chance of hitting, due to the fact that your target is bobbing up and down, moving, and chances are pretty far away.


I'd agree to disagree with this statement. Just because a ship bobbs in the water doesn't mean it can't be hit with a rocket. A ship is pretty big compared to some of the rockets I wield, and mine are perhaps the most advanced in the world at this point, with only a few other nations having more advanced cannons.

I'd agree to disagree with this statement. Just because a ship bobbs in the water doesn't mean it can't be hit with a rocket. A ship is pretty big compared to some of the rockets I wield, and mine are perhaps the most advanced in the world at this point, with only a few other nations having more advanced cannons.


i think the meaning there, when it comes to fireing AT ships, is they won't just sit there and get hit by anything that's likely to set them on fire. they'll move and try to avoid getting hit. about the same as trying to hit a small group of infantry or cavelry at half the range, i'm guessing... but that is just a guess. it depends on designe, really, and the actions of the men manning the rocket and ship.

My army is 400,000 men with expertise in raiding and open combat....

*cough* I have an Imperial Army of between 800,000 - 950,000 men. And their all pretty competant, many being specialists with a single weapon, instead of like a legionairre who is good with sword and spear; I have men good with only a sword, good with only a spear, etc.

But yea, I probably have the largest army.

That is quite the army, My legionaires are all trained with spears,swords and sheilds...some are better than others at single weapons but the majority of them are equal.

I'd agree to disagree with this statement. Just because a ship bobbs in the water doesn't mean it can't be hit with a rocket. A ship is pretty big compared to some of the rockets I wield, and mine are perhaps the most advanced in the world at this point, with only a few other nations having more advanced cannons.
A ship can be hit by a rocket, obviously. It is technically possible. However, for Congreve rockets, at a range of 300 yards, only one in 50 rockets hit. That's a Congreve, at least 200 years more advanced than anything you can field. I would say that the accuracy range for your rockets would be about halved.

Also, you must bear in mind that in Caladonnian naval tactics, ships do not get to instances when they are only 300 yards away. Gunnery duels are conducted from sometimes up to a mile distant, depending on weather and other circumstances.

You also need to note that those statistics are for attacking large battalions of land infantry. If you're attacking single, evading ships, I would say that your chances drop to pretty much nil.

I don't deny that you most likely have the most advanced rockets. However, since rockets are pretty much useless as this point, that doesn't really help you very much.

Btw, perhaps this would be a good updated army chart:

Most Professional Army
1. Ostia
2. Spizania
3. Scandinvans
4. Frozopia
5. Oda or Terror

Largest Army
1. Oda
2. Frozopia
3. Ostia
4 & 5: Unkown until more people post their army sizes.

OOC:
Meh. 4th....... I would put mine in 1st! :D I guess I will have to proove it in Aust, and hopefully in the Han Empire.

OOC:
Meh. 4th....... I would put mine in 1st! :D I guess I will have to proove it in Aust, and hopefully in the Han Empire.
OOC: Well, bear in mind that you're really the only person on both lists... I put Oda for possibly 5th in professionallity too, but that could be incorrect.

My army? 5th most professional? Not really...
In that, though many men are veterans, and they train hard, they are not a standing army. Formations are raised at need; my standing army amounts to maybe 30,000 garrison troops and 'training teams'; these are then used to knock veterans back into shape and train up raw recruits when I need an army.
At present my army is *thinks* pushing 150,000 deployables, and growing, because I'm in several wars, but they're not in contention for either most professional or largest.

heh. i'm in roughly the same boat as terror when it comes to armys.

though my Officers have a tendancey to be nutty good. but i assume that's been noticed.

ummmm... what's actually going on with the whole Aust war, anyway? anything, nothing, ground to a halt?

.. i take it Aust is MIA...

Finally got around to posting this - stuff happened over the weekend, and I didn't get around to it. More to come tomorrow, in a more OOC vein - describing Ovinians, how they came to be there, their character, and the like.
EDIT: A link might be good:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482741

Finally got around to posting this - stuff happened over the weekend, and I didn't get around to it. More to come tomorrow, in a more OOC vein - describing Ovinians, how they came to be there, their character, and the like.


whatever "this" is?

edit: heh, you caught it while i was posting :)

Yeah, I am teh smartzorz... I realised it around about half a second after clicking submit... Anyways, night all.

He will turn up, Im sure. I want to fight this war in the open now, Im sick of sieges. One big battle to decide it all, even if Aust has 3-4 times our own number.

He will turn up, Im sure. I want to fight this war in the open now, Im sick of sieges. One big battle to decide it all, even if Aust has 3-4 times our own number.


which, given that they're mostly untrained pesants, he'll need.

hey, terror, did you get the map of the capital sorted? i have some ships that want a job :D

Hell if we won, it would be a awesome brag. I might even bother to write a factbook for MT Frozopia, throwing in Aust as a victory.

Hell if we won, it would be a awesome brag. I might even bother to write a factbook for MT Frozopia, throwing in Aust as a victory.


it kind of loses it's effectivness as a brag when it's noted that you have on your side: brilliant commanders by the bucket full, several allies, superiour training, equipment quality, and technologie, a greater proportion of veterens..

basicly EVERYTHING but numbers *grins* unless, of course, you have a massive terrain dissadvantage as well, but given the mix of troop types, that's less of a big deal than one might think.

Map of the capital is done. I emailed it to Aust...some time ago...to make sure he agreed to what I'd put down, but no reply.

Just, to say I don’t think that 10,000 infantry that are professional really would be strong enough to wage a war with the hundreds of thousands of solders that are deployed in this thread.

As for my army is made up of 300,000 very well trained and armed Valgardians, and disciplined and well armed 200,000 non-Valgardians.

A ship can be hit by a rocket, obviously. It is technically possible. However, for Congreve rockets, at a range of 300 yards, only one in 50 rockets hit. That's a Congreve, at least 200 years more advanced than anything you can field. I would say that the accuracy range for your rockets would be about halved.

Also, you must bear in mind that in Caladonnian naval tactics, ships do not get to instances when they are only 300 yards away. Gunnery duels are conducted from sometimes up to a mile distant, depending on weather and other circumstances.

You also need to note that those statistics are for attacking large battalions of land infantry. If you're attacking single, evading ships, I would say that your chances drop to pretty much nil.

I don't deny that you most likely have the most advanced rockets. However, since rockets are pretty much useless as this point, that doesn't really help you very much.

Btw, perhaps this would be a good updated army chart:

Most Professional Army
1. Ostia
2. Spizania
3. Scandinvans
4. Frozopia
5. Oda or Terror

Largest Army
1. Oda
2. Frozopia
3. Ostia
4 & 5: Unkown until more people post their army sizes.

Since when did old age cannon fire up to a mile in range? Let alone be able to see the target, not to mention that the target is moving and the time/distance would mean that you would never hit your target unless you were able to calculate where they would be, which again would be impossible because you could hardly see them at that distance.

Come on. I mean, there has to be some limit here folks.

Noone even mentioned or asked about my 400.000 regular army (which can be aided by double that amount in tribesmen)
Its true that they arent fighting at the moment, but it has its reasons. My army is quite professional, divided into battalions, often specialists with a specific weapon(spear, pike, longbow). I think I've proven that professionalism in on of my first conquests(and that was several months ago).

Since when did old age cannon fire up to a mile in range? Let alone be able to see the target, not to mention that the target is moving and the time/distance would mean that you would never hit your target unless you were able to calculate where they would be, which again would be impossible because you could hardly see them at that distance.

Come on. I mean, there has to be some limit here folks.


i was wondering about that... even in the 1770 thread the two mile cannons seemd a little odd.

but, after being proven less than knowledgable in that sort of area several times, i just sorta went with it. rough guess then, comparitivly, at this tech level, cannon vs balista in range?

Even up to the 1860s naval combat had not changed very often, especially with cannon firing. Their accuracy was questionable beyond 200 yards, when against a moving target. Even when the South made the iron-plated monster and the North their own, the two still got within a hundred yards and shelled each other until they called it quits.

The only area of expertise and advance beyond anyone would be in sailor-ship. Meaning you sailors are the best trained, fire at a faster rate, and generally conquer nearly all odds on the high seas. However you cannot do it at a distance of 1-2 miles. That is impossible.

Accurately? Probably not much difference, maximum possible range (not militarily useful) cannons probably have an advantage.
And a cannon is alot more complicated to fire than a ballista. With a ballistae you just wind it back, insert projectile and fire. With a cannon you need to do all sorts of things first.
And remember a ballista only needs two men to crew effectively, while a cannon required four or more to fire effectively in combat. Unless you are loading them all beforehand and then flush them all in one massive cannonade before dropping to an incredibly slower total rate of fire with a small proportion of your cannon

With a crew of two a ballista would be very slow to fire. Seeing as you have to build up all the tension from muscle power, and remembering that some crossbows - half the crew, a fraction the size - took almost a minute.

The Crossbow was not bolted to the deck and set up with levers, a well trained crew of two could load and fire a roman ballistae in about forty seconds

This is true... ^^^^^^^

I was basing the cannon range off later times, since we seem to have some selective tech here. It is true that it is very hard to hit from a mile, but it is technically possible to shoot from that distance. Obviously in most cases you'll be getting quite a bit closer, though in most cases I would imagine that a cannon could fire effectively at beyond the range of a ballista.

There's also the question of power. A cannonball is not only made of iron, but also extremely heavy, rounded, and fired with explosive force. While ballista are powerful and can skewer people quite well, I question their ability to fire through a foot of oak. In comparison to a cannon, ballista bolts are significantly lighter, with most of it made of wood. In addition, they are elongated, meaning less of their force hits with the point. Also, though the torsion springs are quite powerful, they still are not as powerful as the gunpowder of a cannon. Finally, with the arrowhead of a ballista, I doubt it would produce much in the way of splinters when compared to the formidable damage cannons caused from them.

However, there is the significant advantage of firing time. If, as you say, a ballista could fire in 40 seconds, then comparison with a cannon will be most favorable- cannons in the hands of the inexperienced took five minutes, while only the best-trained navies can manage two minutes per shot (the Spanish navy needed four minutes to reload in the Napoleonic wars, the French three, and the British two). The crew needed is also significant, as five men were generally needed to work a cannon.

However, you do come to the question of ammunition- though cannonballs are heavy, they are easily stored due to their shape. Ballista bolts are elongated, making them harder to store. Coupled with the much faster firing times of ballistae, it is likely that they would eat up ammunition reserves before a cannon-mounted ship.

I just thought of one more thing- a ballista, with its side-arms, is significantly wider than a cannon. Thus, it is probable that far fewer could be mounted compared to cannons.

So basically ballistae are not to be derided, but not really a match for cannon in a fight between major warships. Much as I'd originally thought.

Its a common misconception that a ballistae can only fire a bolt, the romans fired pots of burning oil and i cna probably fire gunpowder charges as well

I was wondering, but are you guys interested in doing set battles between our nations? It can have nothing to do with the RP other than the fact that you use your nation to decide your forces and terrain. It can be totally outside the earth.

I'm up for that. A little reward for those who are actually posting, so we don't hang around waiting for the rest, but don't totally mess up the diplomacy...

Its a common misconception that a ballistae can only fire a bolt, the romans fired pots of burning oil and i cna probably fire gunpowder charges as well
You don't have to fire a bolt, but firing anything else would significantly reduce the range. gunpowder could be effective, but pots of burning oil is a sure recipe for destruction on a wooden ship.

now, i made some comment about ballista being wider ages ago too. though i think i also said something about them needing more vertical deck space due to frame and toploading, as well.

i can do random wars :)

If any of you remember me(I used to do the map) I have decided(after several RPs that I left for died) to come back and RP. Many of the RPs I had commitments to have died off and I will gladly rejoin this now that school is winding down(yes Ive been waiting for this). perhaps if someone can fill me in on whats happened and who owns what I could start RPing by this weekend?

Well, as far as I can tell there a number of new nations and the war in Aust is still going on. Yet, as for me I went through a civil war, but I ended it a couple of real days ago and as for my borders they have not changed since you took an extended leave of absence.

If any of you remember me(I used to do the map) I have decided(after several RPs that I left for died) to come back and RP. Many of the RPs I had commitments to have died off and I will gladly rejoin this now that school is winding down(yes Ive been waiting for this). perhaps if someone can fill me in on whats happened and who owns what I could start RPing by this weekend?

Welcome back Philanchez, alot has happened while you were gone...

and at the same time, not much has happend. heh.

the Aust war is dragging on, but the rest of the RP has kind of jumped ahead a year out of bordom.. and got into another war [this time against spizania in africa] which is also dragging on.

let me think... the only real territory changes have been nations comeing and going i think?

i still have NZ and the islands i had before... Ostia now includes egypt.... hummm....

spizania has random things all over the place. ehh. i think Terror's been sort of keeping track, and each person knows where their stuff is. we haven't had an up to date map in quite some time..

Han had invaded Kirisubo, but since everyone was concentrating on the Aust invasion happening at the same time, there wasn't much use in it. So I made it void and am waiting for things to blow over.

Until then not much has happened in Han. Although India and IndoChina are now pacified and official provinces of the Empire of Han.

The Great Wall is being extended southwards. My Shipyards have begun a major push in ship production, and my military is as always ready and willing to do the Emperor's will.

Other than that Phil, not much has happened on my end.

does that mean that you're going to re-run the invasion later?

i'm stalled as well apart from the invasion of Aust but at least the groundwork is laid for it

Yea, but just remember that the part about your Emperor dying is still true. So you have to come up with some council of regents thing [Shogun anyone?] and etc. At your own descression.

I conquered old Toophian territory is another thing that happened, and the orc's/goblins are slowly being wiped out or enslaved.

Phil could you do the map for us? You had the last decent copy before someone changed it into a almost uneditable form.

Right, I'm abck on now, though I'll have to leave again for my exams, from what I've read on the last few pages the Aust war is behind everything else. We can continue it, though it's probably slow down even more or we can decided on a settlement.

A quick point on the ballista ammunition. While it is longer, it's also much lighter, which is another thing you have to take into account. So I'd say ballistae could probably have more ammunition, but the rate of fire would mean that they'd probably run out a trifle faster than cannon.

Also, a quick question on logistics. I've seen huge armies mentioned on here, and I'm wondering how people support them when they're on campaign. In RW Europe, armies in 1450 were about 10,000 men, or less.

Also ballistae ammunition is also much smaller and more compact than cannonballs, allowing me to keep many many times as many

Ive finally settled on the design for the ballistae on my ships and on my fortifications,
bassically the two man crew loads the ballistaes top mounted wooden "magazine" with about forty shots (boiling oil and gunpowder (if not pure impact fired) fuses are lit by a small candle type thing that rests at the back of the magazine and plays on the petruding ignition fuse. its a simple enough concept). They then retreat to behind the battery and began turning a large capstan, (for ships, ones next to each other are linked to allow four men to be used on each to save weight) through a system of ratchets and gearing (all possible in this timeframe) they opperate the ballistae which are modified Polybolos (repeating ballistae, invented by Dionysius of Alexandria i believe). Allowing me to fire 11 rounds per minute (this will decrease after about ten minutes as men start to tire, but it should still stay above the firing rate of a normal ballistae, and they can always alternate with the topside sailing crews)

Spizania, that's all well and good, but as soon as you start to get incoming fire that system....won't be robust enough. A couple of my/Caladonn's broadsides and you'll have about 10% of your stuff left.

On army size, at our tech level concentrated armies of 40-60,000 are feasible, the main limiting factor having been money, followed by logistics.
More than 100,000 together, without easy waterborne transport, will slowly starve.

Welcome back Phil. At some point I've occupied the Malayan peninsula and Philippines I've laid claim to for however long, but otherwise my territory is static. As for events, the Aust war drags, massively. The new Spizani war is another alliance invasion.

Oh, and Reallydrunk set up a sweet little 1770's RP. Link in my sig :D

Thats why the manual system is still there, so if the gearing and stuff breaks, i can still fire the ballistae normally

Ballistae ammunition is much smaller? I would imagine it's several feet long, to be a big enough bolt, which is a lot larger than a cannonball. The point about weights is well taken, though in some cases that can be a bad thing- heavier ships do better in storms, for example.

Here's an excerpt from a group that built a Roman polybolos: "We also constructed a repeating ballista, which fired bolts one after another automatically. On its first trial we were able to shoot eleven bolts a minute, which is almost four times the rate at which an ordinary ballista can be operated. If the Romans really used these they must have frightened the pants off the enemy, although they would also have used ammunition at a prodigious rate!"

That pretty much confirms what people have said. However, with eleven shots a minute, not only would you be grossly inaccurate (Not a problem at short range of course) but, as it says, your ammunition would deplete quite quickly. If you use 11 bolts a minute, that's 660 per hour, and if you have ten ballistae on a ship (Probably a reasonable number considering space on a typical 200-man vessel) that's 6,600 bolts per hour! Considering many naval battles last many hours (Trafalgar was around 8 hours long) you could be spending more than 50,000 bolts in a day! I highly doubt each of your ships carries that many.

Yea, but just remember that the part about your Emperor dying is still true. So you have to come up with some council of regents thing [Shogun anyone?] and etc. At your own descression.

i'll be starting a new thread covering this new chapter in Kirisuban affairs anyway picking up after the Emperors funeral.

There already is a Shogun in place as chosen by the inner council of Daimyos and the Empress will be the regent along with the Shogun and 3 other senior lords.

the Heir will be Princess Genjiko for now until Prince Saruji comes of age and thats how you'll have a female royal line coming round.

I can stack them a lot more easily than cannonballs, i dont have to worry about them rolling all over the deck, plus you forget that the ballistae doesnt suffer from muzzle climb, when firing its locked to the deck.

Cannonballs stack pretty easily. And there's always brass monkeys (google it).

And...muzzle climb? That's a worry on a sub-machine gun. On a cannon? Big deal, the ball hit ten feet further on.

Right, I'm abck on now, though I'll have to leave again for my exams, from what I've read on the last few pages the Aust war is behind everything else. We can continue it, though it's probably slow down even more or we can decided on a settlement.


well, i say we finish it off. it's already getting left behind, and the deal was the allies weren't going to stop while you had anything significatn left on the mainland, so *shrugs* once the seige was compleatly done, there's going to be some navel stuff near your capital to drive the point home, and then we can settle... so far as i'm concerned, at least.

A quick point on the ballista ammunition. While it is longer, it's also much lighter, which is another thing you have to take into account. So I'd say ballistae could probably have more ammunition, but the rate of fire would mean that they'd probably run out a trifle faster than cannon.

Also, a quick question on logistics. I've seen huge armies mentioned on here, and I'm wondering how people support them when they're on campaign. In RW Europe, armies in 1450 were about 10,000 men, or less.


we Do have problems in Aust. the end result is that they split up after a battle, and push to get seiges over with Fast. the shear numbers encorage speed and spread.

actuall concentraited forces for long periods of time will probilby be bellow 15 000, i would expect.

ancient china Did have million man standing armys, but they weren't all in one place at one time.

Settle what? The siege? Theres still a whole war to fight, but if you just post something (anything!) then we can at least gain some momentum. Just say your men have moved on south, we have claimed the city, and whatever your general's next moves are.

Allies I suggest we blockade his main city when we get the chance (I think thats what you got planned anyways).

Unless Aust appears to object, I'm going to be working on the map of his city and approaches I've put together - will email it to other interested parties.
As for blockade, that depends...an intimidatory assault rather appeals.

Personally I don't mind Rping a battle for my capital, but the rest of the campagn we need to map out. i find it unlikly that you would be able to take adn occupy and entire continant-your armies may be much larger than true Pt armies but that would take a lot of work. Look at the problems with taking even a small coutnry-the English against the French for example in the hundred years war.

More liley would be peace terms and you taking the 'centeral Bambinio' area-say an area the size of spain.

I think with one decisive win we could claim most of the continent. Its true Australia is probably too large, but then again the only significant part is the coastline (the area that is the most populated and richer). This amount of land is probably less than the size of France, if more spread out.

So I dont think claiming the continent is unlikely.

In addition to which if we can subvert much of the elite - after all, if they stick with you there will be continuing war, if they come over to us there is a chance of peace - we can delegate much of the task of controlling the countryside to them.
We are going to have to RP at least some of this, methinks.

I don't think you would take the southern-most populas part. That was wherew I withdrew too, the other part I left to you, albet without much of it's population and facilitys. You could have the large area between the rgeat River and the Jungle. That I would be fine with. Taking the places further south of that would be almost impossable, the sheer size of the armeis, the wildlife, the size of the area, the amount of seiges ect. would make it very difficult. Espacally if Aust City Survives and centeral leadership survives.

If you could kill the royal familly, of cours, things would take a diffrent course. without there god the Austian people would eb confused and looking to leadership. If the royal familly adn the succession died out then most of the Lords and populance would join you-if one of your leaders was proclaimed Emproer and 'god.'

This cant be settled Aust. The armies gonna keep going: Its not like we have even RPed a real battle yet.

We could just be sneaky. Cut off news from Tasmania, and then spread rumours of the death of your Emperor. Im assuming that Tasmania is where your Royal family is staying.

Then on to the royal family!, i say we take them alive and force them to comply...

There's no reason why, if we wished, we couldn't take the lot. Though we wouldn't want to.

Truth ^^^^^^

blockade and bombard the capital, spread missinformation [well, it might be true, depending how much the bombardment does :D] about the Royal Family's demise, and carve the territory up between us.

:D onward come the meteors! :D

:p Muhahahhahaha:p

i love it when a plan comes together :)

if someone wants to tell me what the changes have been then i would be glad to edit the map...i will restart rping either today or tomm...ill still be fairly sparse untill school lets out next week...

if someone wants to tell me what the changes have been then i would be glad to edit the map...i will restart rping either today or tomm...ill still be fairly sparse untill school lets out next week...


humm.. the war in Aust, the allies have taken.. what, the north east?

actually, the map has remained desterbingly static, appart from gained and lost players...

so, yeah. i've still got what i had.

Not much has changed in my case and the way I see it right now, not much is gonna change.

Not much has changed in my case and the way I see it right now, not much is gonna change.


you, sir, have a very boreing nation, from an external point of view :p

you, sir, have a very boreing nation, from an external point of view :p

True, My options are just so limited and that one neighbour is oversized.

Logistically and economically-wise, do we have a somewhat larger scale and are we more technologically advanced? So we would have more advanced bureaucracies in the military, to organise the logistics, more transport to transport food, and more food to play around with, yeah?
(Basically, our civilian/governmental apparatus are somewhat more advanced than RW ones of the time so we have more men to play around with, but military tech is about the same? That sounds good to me!)

I'm gone for this entire weekend so don't do anything stupid ok? Good. Have a nice weekend guys.

Uh hello. I'm looking to start/joing a PT that isn't a war.

Welcome, you can join in but be sure to make a factbook and a thread..

My territory has grown a bit in that I've colonised southern Mexico and the remaining Carribean, but that's about it...

I have all of the Toophis territory, and probably expanded a bit further south and west.

Uh hello. I'm looking to start/joing a PT that isn't a war.


well, this RP HAS wars, but you don't have to get involved in them. diplomacy is cool too :)

write up your nation's fact book, stake a claim [i think we're orginiseing an up to date map?] that no one else already has, and you're good to go. i belive most of Europe, south america, and the less hospitable parts of asia and africa are all pretty empty.

Logistically and economically-wise, do we have a somewhat larger scale and are we more technologically advanced? So we would have more advanced bureaucracies in the military, to organise the logistics, more transport to transport food, and more food to play around with, yeah?
(Basically, our civilian/governmental apparatus are somewhat more advanced than RW ones of the time so we have more men to play around with, but military tech is about the same? That sounds good to me!)


our ship building is more advanced. anything that was possible with the available technology and justifyable with your charicters and systems is valid when it comes to logistics and theoretical knowledge. gunpowder weaponary still sucks, so far as guns go, but has it's place.

so.... sort of, yeah. that and we just have big overall populations. considering how spread out a lot of the nations are/were and the amount of ocean crossing often required, small armys would lead to... nothing happening. piracy and trade and... nothing else in most of the world.

so *shrugs* justify it how you will.

Am i allowed to build some ships like Korean Turtle ships? You know Ironclad? I see no reason why i do not have the technology to build such ships. It would be funny to see how your sailors reacted when the first time one appeared

Spiz, i'm not sure about that in 1450.

it maybe possible in the 1770 past tech although

According to Wikipedia:-
The first references to Turtle Ships comes from 1413 and 1415 records in the Annals of the Joseon Dynasty.

So i can assume i would be able to maintain a limited number of comparable vessels

According to Wikipedia:-


So i can assume i would be able to maintain a limited number of comparable vessels


decididly limited, but i don't see why you couldn't have Some. i, personaly, however, would rather you didn't :D

Wehee, the one i have there will lay waste to the fleet attacking Craen Indien

Wehee, the one i have there will lay waste to the fleet attacking Craen Indien


ugh.. i lose track of names and places... is that me? or one of the others?

You, a single ghostly ship with masts, but without sails and powered by oars. Cannonballs and everything else you can throw at it just pounce off of it while gunpowder charges fired from rapid firing ballistae smash huge holes in the sides of your ships

You, a single ghostly ship with masts, but without sails and powered by oars. Cannonballs and everything else you can throw at it just pounce off of it while gunpowder charges fired from rapid firing ballistae smash huge holes in the sides of your ships

humm.. i don't use cannon balls at this point. i launch firebombs out of the cannon instead. not enough iron at this point. and the boomb tubes...

ok, they're not going to do a lot of damage to a turtle ship, but it's Possible the boomb tubes may ram their spiked tips through the armour if they detonate just right in just the right place. probilby won't, but it can happen.

the most evil thing about the turtle ships, if i remember rightly, wasn't that they were armoured. it's that the armour was Rounded. so you couldn't just punch a shot straight through it, it deflected.

still.. they couldn't armour below the water line... hehe. break out the waka and axes :D

edit: balista, even rappid fire, don't do a lot of damage to a ship's hull. they'll destroy it's sails, rigging, possibly the masts but probibbly not, and any crew they hit, but the hull it's self will just end up with a whole lot of new spikey wooded decorations. those that don't bounce off. unless, of course, you fire through the gun ports. that would be nasty.

I can fire through the gunports, i can also shoot gunpowder charges at your hull, or through your gunports. Ballistae are very VERY accurate

Shoot gunpowder charges? What exactly do you mean by that?

Also, I have some prototype bomb-ketches from Terror's design, those should be able to easily penetrate a turtle ship.

Oh when oh when is Aust going to post.
This RP is stagnating.

The major weakness of that form of vessel, and why they never really caught on until steam engines came along, was the vulnerability of the oars.

So by the time you're close enough to have a reasonable chance of firing through the gunports, at least of my vessels, you'll be facing a broadside at your oars. More than a couple of those and you'll be almost totally immobilised, at which point you can either be ignored, or have the fearsomely inaccurate bomb-ketches finally have a chance to zero in on you and make a mockery of your armour.
So yeah, I have no problem with turtle ships ;)
And, this RP is stagnating a bit. I'll try and remember to post the attack on Aust City...soon.

Could i get away with using slave driven paddlewheels instead?

Thats why i wanted a settlement-1st GCSE tomorrow so i won't be on much, 2 or 3 posts a day at most.

a diplomatic settlement is still possible with a puppet government taking over.

a regime change could be enough to end the war.

Paddlewheels....I dunno. Probably technically possible but not hugely practical, give you much less power than oars.

As to Aust, if we...set up the situation...and you can then respond as to whether you government accepts or declines. If it declines, the war continues, however slowly, if it accepts then we can move on.

Thats English Literature isnt it?

And Paddlewheels have the advantage that they can be inside my armour shell, plus the would be oarsmen can use their whole body strength. I would put a double line of paddle wheels down the centre of the ship where i have maximum headroom

Paddlewheels INSIDE the armour?...
As far as I know it's never been tried, even on ships that were armoured in the C19th.
I would expect there to be practical issues, especially with maintenance of the wheels; and if the armour got dented by cannon-fire surely it would put the whole paddlewheel out of action?
I'd just stick with external ones, they won't be massivley robust, but no worse than the sails that everything else relies on I wouldn't think.

The armour shell is the upper part of an enormous circle, that means that in the middle of the ship the armour shell is at its highest point, providing room for me to put the paddlewheels inside and just them out through the bottom of the ship, it will nbe harder to maintain but it will allow me to maintain propulsion in the middle of a battle, plus it will added to the ghostlyness of the ship when your men first encounter it.
Because the top of the armour is quite flat youd need a hell of a cannon ball strike to dent the armour significantly enough to interfere with it

These things are a massive commitment on manpower and expense to build...that might work, I guess. It would probably be beaten in the first battle by sheer weight of numbers, then tactics would begin to develop to actually deal with it.
Oh yeah, you're fighting Angerman with this beast...he has tactics aplenty, but his vessels emphasise mobility over firepower and protection. They'll probably just stay away from your monstrosity.

Oh yeah, can I have a response when I get a breach in your wall? I want to make the assault...

Who said i would just use them on Angermanland, i will have eight or nine by now with a load more under construction. The Empire will be putting everything it can into the war.
The ship wont be much slower than a comparably armed sail ship in a tactical enviroment, remember it has sails aswell.

I thought you said that the sails wouldn't be used in combat?
And, Angerman's ships are somewhat faster than the average sailing ship.

Seriously, if you're going to have comparable speed, you can't have armour as good as you've claimed. The one prevents the other from being practical, else everyone would have done it by now.

Oh sorry they wont, the ship will be slower, but in the case of fighting Angermanland, he has to protect his assault forces, so he has to stay close to them. Largely negating his speed advantage. Likewise the ones at Craen Punica or the at Fogo on the Cape Verde Islands will be deployed in a situation for which they are quite well suited

Ah GCSE's. The easiest exams of your lives.....

Too true :D
Well, hope everyone taking them enjoys the experience, then comes back and POSTS!

To be quite honest, I highly doubt you could build something like this anywhere but a major seaport like Gibraltar, Carthage and so on. Definitely not Fogo. There's simply the problem with iron- the Cape Verde doesn't have much natural iron, and you can't import it with the blockade.

Also, these ironclads aren't going to be seaworthy enough to leave coastal areas- the slave teams will be exhausted after a short time of pushing the paddlewheels, and the rounded construction won't do well in a storm.

i would question rappid fireing powder barrels and fire bombs. they're kinda awkward shapes and so on.

i would think it would be one or the other.

ummm.. were you proposeing to Cut Holes in the bottom of your ship for the paddles?

you do realise they actually pull the water up at the back, do you not? your ship would sink.

heh. my sailors wouldn't nessisaraly freak at a sailless ship comeing to get them. they use waka, after all, and those have no sails. not to mention psychological warfare [and chemistry] is my "thing" i mean, these are the guys who invented the hawk. they're used to strange stuff.

i forsee any battle between any of my ships short of a behemoth [which doesn't turn up untill way later, but is around by the 1770s] and a turtle ship ending in a stale mate. your ships wouldn't be able to reach mine, mine wouldn't be able to hurt yours. unless, like i mentioned earlyer, i broke out the waka... mabey the [almost obsolete] Master class with it's waka could make a come back. hehe. ramming speed! break out the axes!

on a barely relivant note: all the patches for world of warcraft, in NZ, over a 56 k modem. took just over 24 hours. that's why i wasn't around yesterday.

i would question rappid fireing powder barrels and fire bombs. they're kinda awkward shapes and so on.

i would think it would be one or the other.

ummm.. were you proposeing to Cut Holes in the bottom of your ship for the paddles?

you do realise they actually pull the water up at the back, do you not? your ship would sink.

heh. my sailors wouldn't nessisaraly freak at a sailless ship comeing to get them. they use waka, after all, and those have no sails. not to mention psychological warfare [and chemistry] is my "thing" i mean, these are the guys who invented the hawk. they're used to strange stuff.

i forsee any battle between any of my ships short of a behemoth [which doesn't turn up untill way later, but is around by the 1770s] and a turtle ship ending in a stale mate. your ships wouldn't be able to reach mine, mine wouldn't be able to hurt yours. unless, like i mentioned earlyer, i broke out the waka... mabey the [almost obsolete] Master class with it's waka could make a come back. hehe. ramming speed! break out the axes!

on a barely relivant note: all the patches for world of warcraft, in NZ, over a 56 k modem. took just over 24 hours. that's why i wasn't around yesterday.

Um, similar designs have been done in Real Life and they didnt sink (as long as you build it properly it doesnt sink (build it as a catamaran and put the paddlewheels in the gap)

Powder charges and burning oil charges can be made into a cylindrical shape which is just as easy to fire as a normal bolt, its been demonstrated in real life

Oh and yet another reason to get broadband :D

I have returned from my weekend and will be catching up...i apoligize for my absence....

I just wanted it to be known i havn't been fucking off... :)

Dont worry, We havent forgotten you yet

Any time you're firing something explosive/firey from a ship, a general rule of thumb is that accidents will hurt you as much as the enemy.

Bumpity bump. If people still want random battles, I'm up for a tercio of mine (approx 3,000 men) against whoever wants to have a go, in terrain of their choice.

from tomorrow morning i'll be be away for the weekend at a live roleplaying event.

i'll probally be back late on monday so if i'm not replying to posts that will be the reason why ;)

(I really should stop getting so damned bored)

k, Toops is back *sigh* I wanted to bring my puppets to Toops' high level of respect and recognition (failed!) so now here I am with the only nation who ever loved me, does Frozo still play?

Off and on, I think.

Greetings. My nation is the Eastern Roman Empire, under leaders like Justinian, Heraclius and Basil Bulgaroctonus (Bulgar Slayer). Please let me be on the map, as the Eastern Roman Empire. I want all the Eastern Roman lands, including the Middle East and the such.

Just to sat, paddle wheels on boats were not viable until the invention of the steam engine. As well, the first paddleboats did not exist until the 18th century.

Welcome Eastern Rome. Put a factbook up, and people will probably come knocking on your doors.

Welcome Eastern Rome. Put a factbook up, and people will probably come knocking on your doors.

I will do so. Can you explain the factbook to refresh my memory? Thanks and thanks for the welcome.

Basic information:
Population, society type (monarchy, republic etc), rough armed forces sizes, where you are, then any information you want to add.

Basic information:
Population, society type (monarchy, republic etc), rough armed forces sizes, where you are, then any information you want to add.

I put a factbook up. Look for The Eastern Roman Empire (Past Tech).

Bumpity bump. If people still want random battles, I'm up for a tercio of mine (approx 3,000 men) against whoever wants to have a go, in terrain of their choice.


i'll take you on. billard table style terrain [that is, dead flat and grassy, no random holes or hills or rivers etc etc]. 10 thunder cannon, a BG of lightning troops, a Kompany each of eel, wheel, and rock...

for a total of 1000 cav[sort of] 750 infantry, and ... well.. 10 thunder cannons. each with 10 barrels and 20 spare barrels.

commanded by .... Pi, as it's not a whole army :D

Whack a thread up for it then...

Eastern Rome, perhaps you should post a link here.

Anyone willing to do a naval wargame with me? We can go with a Legion, 20 SOTL plus five supporting frigates or whatever.

Eastern Rome, perhaps you should post a link here.

Anyone willing to do a naval wargame with me? We can go with a Legion, 20 SOTL plus five supporting frigates or whatever.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484499

Oda is still here btw. Just so you don't wipe me off the map. Anything near me happening or is the Aust war still going on?

At the moment nothing is happening at all, hence the random battles to keep things alive.
We're waiting on Aust, basically.

You'd probably be better off without me, as I'm barley going to post for the next 3-4 weeks. Say you took Aust and leave it guys.

Eh, what's four weeks? This has been going like 5 months or something.

This idea looks interesting, I can't believe Jenrak passed it up when he was looking for a place for pt rp. If there's still room enough, I guess I could put a puppet here. <TAG>

Im still here dont you worry Toops. Ruling your peoples......

This idea looks interesting, I can't believe Jenrak passed it up when he was looking for a place for pt rp. If there's still room enough, I guess I could put a puppet here. <TAG>

I didn't pass it up. I just want to try something independant before lunging myself into another Earth.

This idea looks interesting, I can't believe Jenrak passed it up when he was looking for a place for pt rp. If there's still room enough, I guess I could put a puppet here. <TAG>

Yup, room aplenty :D

yeah.. we need more..... Active... RPers.

I can't do much because of Spizania's inactivity, unfortunately...

I havent got much time to handle this PT RPing at the moment, being as im in the middle of my GCSEs.

i'm back again from my weekend and hopefully have caught up on everything i missed :)

I havent got much time to handle this PT RPing at the moment, being as im in the middle of my GCSEs.

We'll just keep ourselves busy with random battles until you've finished. This has been going since January, sure it can wait a little while.

God knows how this is going to work out in my gap year, especially when i go travelling......

God knows how this is going to work out in my gap year, especially when i go travelling......

I give people warning now that I'll be withdrawing permanently in October, if it's still going then.

Apologies for not being around and doing stuff - I'm in the middle of college exams, and have done SFA all year, so I am cramming like a mad thing so that I don't fail miserably. Normal service will resume next week, and then I will do something. Hopefully something interesting.

I give people warning now that I'll be withdrawing permanently in October, if it's still going then.

"Tis' been a good run ei'der way, argh." -Pirate Captain Thrashia

"Tis' been a good run ei'der way, argh." -Pirate Captain Thrashia

Aye, it's true, but I get the feeling that when I start at uni I won't be in a position to RP actively; sure I'll be able to do a bit, but not something big like this.

The nation of Arionodor would be honored to join thy group.

ooc-Arionodor is in it's renissiance period, and is similar to ancient Rome

Welcome...if you want to use 'thy' feel free, but it's not compulsory :p
Tell us where you want to claim (I would point you to a map for blank bits, but it's a bit out of date).
Oh yeah, and put up a factbook telling us about your nation.

EDIT: and this whole thread is OOC, so you don't need to use OOC: IC: notation here. :D

Anybody still alive? :cool:

I suspect I'm in a very... limited place with this puppet, considering that it's tech level is basically 1890s(and some "add-ons" of AT and Fantasy that I will remove or add according to the needs). I've been looking for PT NSes in that time line for a long time, and I even had to make certain concessions to make it compatible with Fantasy so I had somewhere to RP because of that.

Hope you could give me some headstart on Past-Tech.

If you like, we could start a small PT rp. I've got one planned out for a bit of a come-back thread.

If you didn't notice, the last post before yours was two years ago, in early 2006. By now, some of these nations have been deleted, and this thing has been dead for two whole years. I'm calling a gravedig on this one.

If you didn't notice, the last post before yours was two years ago, in early 2006. By now, some of these nations have been deleted, and this thing has been dead for two whole years. I'm calling a gravedig on this one.

I think that is too harsh. A gravedig is an entirely useless spam post, usually done with entirely malicious intentions. This was just intended a call for hopefully some of the oldschool still alive and for potential new PT nations unaware that there a few others around. And I saw a relatively recent Frozopia post somewhere

*IGNORE CANNON HAS BEEN FIRED*

So, Soviet, does that sound interesting to you?

This PT RP planning seems to have been organised for a small group of members long ago, and has since been abandoned. Notice how two links detail the invasion of India.

Ignoring someone OOCly is different from ignoring someone ICly. I see that you were once a member of this group, but it is dead.

Please stop being a nag. I'm not gravedigging. I'm seeing if anyone of my old buds are still around and seeing if any new blood is interested, which Soviet Steam seems to be. Your accusation is unfounded and your starting to both piss me off and asking for me to start flaming, making me think you're justing posting to troll. So, kindly, stop posting in this thread unless you are doing so under the pretense of showing interest in a PT rp. If not, get out.

Oda noh Nobunaga, check your TGs please.

I seek not to flame, but I note that this thread seemed to have died two years ago. The very last post made in this thread was on the 31st of May, 2006, over two years ago, so my accusation is not unfounded. Again, I'm not trolling, or at least I'm not trying to troll.

I seek not to flame, but I note that this thread seemed to have died two years ago. The very last post made in this thread was on the 31st of May, 2006, over two years ago, so my accusation is not unfounded. Again, I'm not trolling, or at least I'm not trying to troll.

You do pretty good without trying. And I could care less if the last post was made in 1st of January, 2003. You were not involved then, nor do you seem to be now, so bugger off.

@ Soviet: Got'cha.

You seek to flame me. I care not. You could at least not be as impolite as you are. Regardless, I bid you adieu.