NationStates Jolt Archive

Thanks for the help Lesser Ribena


Projects:
Rural electrification(My nation isn't too big, and i have been over spending on my social costs, so i was wondering if this would cost a minimal amount of points?)

Dam construction: I want to build a bunch of smaller dams, since this is how Yugoslavia gets a chunk of it's modern day power, i would like to do that.



electrification is 1 point per 10 million, dam construction would be included in Yugoslavia's case for an additional 1 point per 10 million people.

When should I try to post my 1938 build? GB said to hold off posting builds, but when should we start posting builds? Wed? Thurs? Friday?

once agreement is reached on how it should work

Well since i have so many points left over, is it possible for my nation to start serious technology experimentation. Say research VTOLs and try and get something like the MI-1 or 2 by 1945? I have already shown you two seperate cases of Yugoslav experiments with VTOL once on Chatzy, so i don't think it is too far fetched.

Well since i have so many points left over, is it possible for my nation to start serious technology experimentation. Say research VTOLs and try and get something like the MI-1 or 2 by 1945? I have already shown you two seperate cases of Yugoslav experiments with VTOL once on Chatzy, so i don't think it is too far fetched.

Chatzy? Nobody has been using Chatzy for more than 7 days. :confused:

I don't know about all these changes to the economic system....megaprojects, depending on how they are regulated by the mods could be alright, but I am very much against the use of 'oil points' or other resource points. I think it would be to hard to keep track of and would be too confusing in the long run. How do you regulate situations such as the RL WWII Japanese oil crisis when all their ships were being sunk? It would be to abritary and to opinionated. Like communism, it sounds good on paper (or moniter in this case) but in practice I think it would be to hard to regulate.

I don't know about all these changes to the economic system....megaprojects, depending on how they are regulated by the mods could be alright, but I am very much against the use of 'oil points' or other resource points. I think it would be to hard to keep track of and would be too confusing in the long run. How do you regulate situations such as the RL WWII Japanese oil crisis when all their ships were being sunk? It would be to abritary and to opinionated. Like communism, it sounds good on paper (or moniter in this case) but in practice I think it would be to hard to regulate.

Would you rather have nations have seemingly infinite resources like in mainstream NS? Thats one reason why I quit NS RP'ing to stay with E20 because of all the wankage and magical crap iin NS.

Suppose Bhutan or Guyana or Sudan can magically build 1000 tanks with merely the point system if they have been embargoed? That'd be like RL Iraq magically having plentiful of equipment despite embargoes aganist it during Saddam's regime.

How can you build stuff out of thin air if you don't have the oil, steel, uranium, aluminum, titanium, etc. to build it? How can people enjoy luxuries if there are no gemstones, silk, or whatever? Its unrealistic *not* to have resources in E20.

I really like the change about Command vs Market. It actually means that there's a difference and doesn't just give the swine-pigs a super advantage.

Factories: eh, whatever. If people want to change it, go ahead. Not like it matters. The proletariat are opressed either way... :p

Oil: ooh. That's a biggie. I think there should be some sort of regulation, but nothing really intense. Like an oil index and you have to reach it or find alternate sources (at least domestically).

Megaprojects: Meh. Sharina, a few of those examples, like the Eiffle Tower, doesn't really do anything at all. I think that stuff should just be built as historically unless you make something different (Dams, Railroads).

Speaking of which, what economic benefits does the Union get from having total control of the Trans-Eurasian?

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)
Population:13 million
1938 builds: 28 points base + 1 from Natural Growth, plus 34 for shipping and airlines, total of 63 points

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). - 5 points basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
1 x Light Bomber = 1p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
3 x Flak Artillery = .75p
2 x Carrier Fighter Units = 2p
1 x Carrier Bomber Units = 1p
3 x Fleet Carrier = 3p (Vincente Sewell, Dario Echandia, Francisco de Paula Santander)
2 x Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
TOTAL: 26p

National Builds: (32p left)
8 Points to Panama Canal effort. (To make it 10/10)
10 Points to MEU Government
5 Points to Immigrant Assistance
1 Point to sponser Youth Sport Programs (Soccer, Rugby, etc)

Mega Projects: (8p left)
Rural Electrification = 1p
Improved Super Highway System between Panama, Colombia, and Venezuela = ???
Standardized Railway Construction throughout Gran Colombia = ???

Updated to the Max!

Base Income (industrial and economic value)

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 4%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 6%

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 2% (only in time of war)

Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1%

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 2%, no penalty postwar

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3.5, no growth, - 2% penalty postwar per year after the war for every year in effect.

Market and Command Total War (not available until third year of war) x 4, no growth, -1% growth for duration and –1% growth each year after the war for every year in effect.

Deficit Spending – Market economies can borrow from the future (essentially bonds), up to 25% of its income. However, a nation that does this must keep track of what it owes and must pay back 5% of that each year. Maximum national debt allowed is 50% of income.

Nations must indicate whether they are Command Economies or Market Economies, and what kind of government they have such as Dictatorship, Representative Democratic, Other (be specific).

Commerce
Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market.

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce
Tech Level 5 – shipping units provide 1 point per unit per year, national and international airlines provide 2 points each. Maximum available is 34 points
Tech Level 6 – as above

Tech Level 7 – shipping units provide 2 points per unit per year (ships are bigger, more efficient, and the first container ships become available). Maximum bonus for shipping is 60 points a year. Airlines provide 1 point per unit and Jet airlines provide 2 points per unit (when they become available) In addition, any number of airlines can be built and operated. Upper limit for airlines is 10 points. Airlines cost 6 points, and Jet airlines cost 10 points. This covers also the expense of bigger airports and air traffic control systems.

Resources and Factories are dropped. You have your basic income which increases (or not) each year. However, income can be damaged due to damage to commerce, or war damage. War damage is treated just a repairing a damaged factory under the old system. 6 points to repair 1 point of income.

At Tech Level 7 you can also modernize your economy (more efficient factories, communications sytems, transportation systems etc). Cost is 1 point for every 10 points of income. Takes 1 year. Once modernized, income is increased by 1.5.

Your budget is Income + Commerce + whatever aid you get + whatever deficit spending or loans you get = Total Income

Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market. At tech level 5 and 6, each shipping unit represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 1 commerce point. At tech level 7, shipping represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 2 commerce points. However, you will have to upgrade your shipping units or purchase new ones upon reaching tech level 7 to get this bonus.

Tech level 7 nations can get up to 60 points a year from shipping while Tech level 4, 5 and 6 nations can only get up to 30 points a year. Tech level 3 or less nations cannot build merchant shipping units at this point, although they can buy them from other nations.

Airlines at tech level 5 and 6 really don’t have a significant air freight capability, but do increase the efficiency of commerce internally for National airlines (worth 2 commerce points) and internationally for an International Airline (worth 2 commerce points). Building airlines also represents the airports constructed Nations are only allowed one of each at tech level 5 and 6.

At tech level 7, airlines actually start having significant air freight capability, and much larger passenger capability. They will cost more, which will cover the costs of the airports and safety systems placed. To gain the tech level 7 bonus for air commerce, you must spend 1 point for every 10 million people (represents the airports and air traffic control systems), plus purchase the planes and pilots. However, each airline is worth 1 commerce point and multiple airlines are allowed up to 1 airline per 10 million people.

Energy
Industrial economies must have access to energy supplies. In addition, mechanized armies, air forces and navies must have this access as well. From now on nations must have access to energy or suffer penalties. A proportion of some nation’s income will consist of energy resources. These can be coal, oil, natural gas, hydroelectric energy or atomic energy (later). This allows for some flexibility in national economies as well. In addition, oil, coal and natural gas resources can be purchased using commerce points. 1 commerce point equals 1 energy point. However, the purchasing nation must have a safe practical sea or railroad route from the point of purchase to its own country. At tech level 7 pipelines can be built as well at the cost of 1 point for every 150 kilometers.

You must have 1 energy point for every 15 points of domestic income, and 1 oil point for every 10 mechanized, motorized, headquarters, armored, or aircraft unit you have and 1 oil point for every 5 warship (or warship units) that you have. (remember destroyers and submarines at tech level 6 come as 10 ships to a unit for example). If a nation has units and income points that don't have energy to run, then it doesn't get the domestic income that would have been produced, excess naval and air units are placed in reserve, and ground units get converted to either garrison or infantry units.


Mega Projects
Subject to referee approval. Cost between 6 – 20 points. Must be transportation or energy related. Can provide a boost of up to 15% to an economy or no benefit at all or somewhere in between. Make a proposal and approval and cost will be provided (or not). Benefits may be an immediate economic benefit, or more subtly, a quicker move to the next tech level. Actual historical projects are preferred. At tech level 5 railroads and canals are possible, at tech level 6, massive dam hydroelectric projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority or Volga River projects and at tech level 7 things like the Space Program and US Interstate Highway project are doable.


Rural Electrification
At tech level 6 electrical power is widespread enough that it can be brought out to the small towns, villages and farms in the hinterland. At a price. This increases productivity in those regions, increases economic activity. Cost is 1 point for every 10 million in population, and gives a one time increase of 10% to the national income (at its peacetime rate).

Dude, can't we just stick with what we have? This looks far more complicated and unnessecary.

The 1938 builds, MEU is on wartime economy which means we get 66 points plus 65 points as foreign aid from Soviets, Colombians, Americans, and Algerians, and 10 points from cargo shipping plus 1 point from the airlines, so its 142 points in this turn alone.

30 points for maintaining of the arm forces

10 Inf units for 20 points

10 Shipping units for 30 points

1 Headquarters units for 6 points

4 Theater supply units for 8 points

4 Dive bomber units (Stuka) for 8 points

4 Pilots for 8 points

4 Katyusha for 8 points


24 points to Level III Social Services and Healthcare

Energy
Industrial economies must have access to energy supplies. In addition, mechanized armies, air forces and navies must have this access as well. From now on nations must have access to energy or suffer penalties. A proportion of some nation’s income will consist of energy resources. These can be coal, oil, natural gas, hydroelectric energy or atomic energy (later). This allows for some flexibility in national economies as well. In addition, oil, coal and natural gas resources can be purchased using commerce points. 1 commerce point equals 1 energy point. However, the purchasing nation must have a safe practical sea or railroad route from the point of purchase to its own country. At tech level 7 pipelines can be built as well at the cost of 1 point for every 150 kilometers.

You must have 1 energy point for every 15 points of domestic income, and 1 oil point for every 10 mechanized, motorized, headquarters, armored, or aircraft unit you have and 1 oil point for every 5 warship (or warship units) that you have. (remember destroyers and submarines at tech level 6 come as 10 ships to a unit for example). If a nation has units and income points that don't have energy to run, then it doesn't get the domestic income that would have been produced, excess naval and air units are placed in reserve, and ground units get converted to either garrison or infantry units.

So I take it Korea would have to spend a LOT to keep a modern army going. I would think Korea has some coal, but not really anything else.




Mega Projects
Subject to referee approval. Cost between 6 – 20 points. Must be transportation or energy related. Can provide a boost of up to 15% to an economy or no benefit at all or somewhere in between. Make a proposal and approval and cost will be provided (or not). Benefits may be an immediate economic benefit, or more subtly, a quicker move to the next tech level. Actual historical projects are preferred. At tech level 5 railroads and canals are possible, at tech level 6, massive dam hydroelectric projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority or Volga River projects and at tech level 7 things like the Space Program and US Interstate Highway project are doable.

Rural Electrification
At tech level 6 electrical power is widespread enough that it can be brought out to the small towns, villages and farms in the hinterland. At a price. This increases productivity in those regions, increases economic activity. Cost is 1 point for every 10 million in population, and gives a one time increase of 10% to the national income (at its peacetime rate).

I had one in mind, the creation of a network of Dams similar to the TVA in Korea (mainly in the North, but some in the South too) to produce hydroelectricity and supply water for agricultural purposes. Would rural electrification have to be paid for seperately, or be covered by this megaproject?

Makes sense to me.

Makes sense to me.

which makes sense to you?

Base Income (industrial and economic value)

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 4%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%
Too high. I'd recommend 3%.


Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 6% Also too high. Maybe 5%.

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 2% (only in time of war)

Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1%

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 2%, no penalty postwar

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3.5, no growth, - 2% penalty postwar per year after the war for every year in effect.

Personally, I think these should be reversed, the Great Depression affected the West much more than it affected the Soviet Union. I'll accept even penalties, however.

Deficit Spending – Market economies can borrow from the future (essentially bonds), up to 25% of its income. However, a nation that does this must keep track of what it owes and must pay back 5% of that each year. Maximum national debt allowed is 50% of income.At higher Tech Levels the limit should probably be higher - the current Japanese debt is 120% of its GDP - something like six times what its "baseline income" would be in the E20 system.

Base Income (industrial and economic value)

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 1.5%

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 5%

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 3% (only in time of war)

Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1%

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 2%,

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3.5, no growth,

Market and Command Total War (not available until third year of war) x 4, no growth, -1% growth for duration and –1% growth each year after the war for every year in effect.

Deficit Spending – Market economies can borrow from the future (essentially bonds), up to 25% of its income. However, a nation that does this must keep track of what it owes and must pay back 5% of that each year. Maximum national debt allowed is 50% of income (for now at least).

Nations must indicate whether they are Command Economies or Market Economies, and what kind of government they have such as Dictatorship, Representative Democratic, Other (be specific).

Commerce
Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market.

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce
Tech Level 5 – shipping units provide 1 point per unit per year, national and international airlines provide 2 points each. Maximum available is 34 points
Tech Level 6 – as above

Tech Level 7 – shipping units provide 2 points per unit per year (ships are bigger, more efficient, and the first container ships become available). Maximum bonus for shipping is 60 points a year. Airlines provide 1 point per unit and Jet airlines provide 2 points per unit (when they become available) In addition, any number of airlines can be built and operated. Upper limit for airlines is 10 points. Airlines cost 6 points, and Jet airlines cost 10 points. This covers also the expense of bigger airports and air traffic control systems.

Resources and Factories are dropped. You have your basic income which increases (or not) each year. However, income can be damaged due to damage to commerce, or war damage. War damage is treated just a repairing a damaged factory under the old system. 6 points to repair 1 point of income.

At Tech Level 7 you can also modernize your economy (more efficient factories, communications sytems, transportation systems etc). Cost is 1 point for every 10 points of income. Takes 1 year. Once modernized, income is increased by 1.5.

Your budget is Income + Commerce + whatever aid you get + whatever deficit spending or loans you get = Total Income

Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market. At tech level 5 and 6, each shipping unit represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 1 commerce point. At tech level 7, shipping represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 2 commerce points. However, you will have to upgrade your shipping units or purchase new ones upon reaching tech level 7 to get this bonus.

Tech level 7 nations can get up to 60 points a year from shipping while Tech level 4, 5 and 6 nations can only get up to 30 points a year. Tech level 3 or less nations cannot build merchant shipping units at this point, although they can buy them from other nations.

Airlines at tech level 5 and 6 really don’t have a significant air freight capability, but do increase the efficiency of commerce internally for National airlines (worth 2 commerce points) and internationally for an International Airline (worth 2 commerce points). Building airlines also represents the airports constructed Nations are only allowed one of each at tech level 5 and 6.

At tech level 7, airlines actually start having significant air freight capability, and much larger passenger capability. They will cost more, which will cover the costs of the airports and safety systems placed. To gain the tech level 7 bonus for air commerce, you must spend 1 point for every 10 million people (represents the airports and air traffic control systems), plus purchase the planes and pilots. However, each airline is worth 1 commerce point and multiple airlines are allowed up to 1 airline per 10 million people.

Energy
Industrial economies must have access to energy supplies. In addition, mechanized armies, air forces and navies must have this access as well. From now on nations must have access to energy or suffer penalties. A proportion of some nation’s income will consist of energy resources. These can be coal, oil, natural gas, hydroelectric energy or atomic energy (later). This allows for some flexibility in national economies as well. In addition, oil, coal and natural gas resources can be purchased using commerce points. 1 commerce point equals 1 energy point. However, the purchasing nation must have a safe practical sea or railroad route from the point of purchase to its own country. At tech level 7 pipelines can be built as well at the cost of 1 point for every 150 kilometers.

You must have 1 energy point for every 15 points of domestic income, and 1 oil point for every 10 mechanized, motorized, headquarters, armored, or aircraft unit you have and 1 oil point for every 5 warship (or warship units) that you have. (remember destroyers and submarines at tech level 6 come as 10 ships to a unit for example). If a nation has units and income points that don't have energy to run, then it doesn't get the domestic income that would have been produced, excess naval and air units are placed in reserve, and ground units get converted to either garrison or infantry units.


Mega Projects
Subject to referee approval. Cost between 6 – 20 points. Must be transportation or energy related. Can provide a boost of up to 15% to an economy or no benefit at all or somewhere in between. Make a proposal and approval and cost will be provided (or not). Benefits may be an immediate economic benefit, or more subtly, a quicker move to the next tech level. Actual historical projects are preferred. At tech level 5 railroads and canals are possible, at tech level 6, massive dam hydroelectric projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority or Volga River projects and at tech level 7 things like the Space Program and US Interstate Highway project are doable.


Rural Electrification
At tech level 6 electrical power is widespread enough that it can be brought out to the small towns, villages and farms in the hinterland. At a price. This increases productivity in those regions, increases economic activity. Cost is 1 point for every 10 million in population, and gives a one time increase of 10% to the national income (at its peacetime rate).

adjustments made

which makes sense to you?

The new economic system.

Hmm. The new system does make sense, somewhat.

I can understand two different modes of government having different growth rates. The Capitalists enjoy more economic bonuses, and better growth because its nature encourages competition and the desire to one-up each other, thus promoting growth itself. This is probably why the US was able to outlast the USSR in the Cold War due to economy.

The commerce is a little bit confusing for me. When China hits Tech Level 7, will it require 53 points (for 530 million people) to upgrade and build Tech Level 7 airlines? Then will China have a maximum of 53 airlines, which means what in terms of commerce and points and income?

I can understand the energy requirements. After all, all modern machines of war and peace do need oil or electricity to operate. Tanks, cars, planes, diesel engines, ships (except nuclear powered ones), etc. all require oil and gasoline to move around. Ditto for electricity power plants- most electricity power plants require coal, oil, or uranium, even today in RL 2006.

Megaproject proposals should be made by the player, and then the player proposes the bonuses he or she may think should occur upon the completion of the project. The refree approves or not approves the megaproject, as well as tweak the bonuses if the player-proposed bonus is too unreasonable.

I'm still a little confused on Rural Electrification bonus. Suppose China does it now in 1938... 53 points to rural electrification, then gains 10% bonus to its economy for 1939. Does this mean the following...

1939:

100 points industry
14 points commerce
Total: 114 points.

10% bonus = 11.4 (rounded up to 12) points in addition to the 114 points for a final income of 126 points.

Then.... in 1940, assuming no new commerce or "factories" are built, will the bonus stay or does it revert back to just 114 points instead of 126 points?

I need to ask this as an one-time bonus would mean holding off rural electrification until you reach near-maximum industry for maximum return. I mean, suppose China waits until it has 500 points from industry. Then do rural electrification, which means China gets 50 extra points from it. Then back to normal?

I propose a permanent 10% bonus to economy, as rural electrification will be there to stay and benefit the economy from that point onwards, instead of just for one year. Benefits for just one year doesn't make sense because it would seem like everybody only gains rural electrification for one year then regress back to non-rural electrification (except in warfare), which doesn't seem realistic.


Please share thoughts on this.

Hmm. The new system does make sense, somewhat.

The commerce is a little bit confusing for me. When China hits Tech Level 7, will it require 53 points (for 530 million people) to upgrade and build Tech Level 7 airlines? Then will China have a maximum of 53 airlines, which means what in terms of commerce and points and income?.

It will have the infrastructure to handle jet air traffic is what that means, including the larger airports and air traffic control system required. However, the maximum airline commerce bonus is 10 points a year. Which means in 6 years it pays for itself for China, but more rapidly for other nations.



Megaproject proposals should be made by the player, and then the player proposes the bonuses he or she may think should occur upon the completion of the project. The refree approves or not approves the megaproject, as well as tweak the bonuses if the player-proposed bonus is too unreasonable. .

I can live with that.


I'm still a little confused on Rural Electrification bonus. Suppose China does it now in 1938... 53 points to rural electrification, then gains 10% bonus to its economy for 1939. Does this mean the following...

1939:

100 points industry
14 points commerce
Total: 114 points.

10% bonus = 11.4 (rounded up to 12) points in addition to the 114 points for a final income of 126 points.

Then.... in 1940, assuming no new commerce or "factories" are built, will the bonus stay or does it revert back to just 114 points instead of 126 points?

I need to ask this as an one-time bonus would mean holding off rural electrification until you reach near-maximum industry for maximum return. I mean, suppose China waits until it has 500 points from industry. Then do rural electrification, which means China gets 50 extra points from it. Then back to normal?

I propose a permanent 10% bonus to economy, as rural electrification will be there to stay and benefit the economy from that point onwards, instead of just for one year. Benefits for just one year doesn't make sense because it would seem like everybody only gains rural electrification for one year then regress back to non-rural electrification (except in warfare), which doesn't seem realistic..


Actually what would happen is that 100 Chinese industry points are increased by 10%, permanently, so that from then on China has 110 Industry points plus its commerce, any foriegn aid, and any deficit spending plus any growth.

adjustments made
I notice you also lowered growth rates for Command Economies, which I still don't endorse. My actual recommendations would look like this:

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 5%

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 2% (only in time of war)

Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1%

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 1%

I think the longterm advantages of a Market system, especially, are clear enough that they don't need to be exaggerated.

It will have the infrastructure to handle jet air traffic is what that means, including the larger airports and air traffic control system required. However, the maximum airline commerce bonus is 10 points a year. Which means in 6 years it pays for itself for China, but more rapidly for other nations.

Gotcha.

However, will aircraft increase commerce points and income even further at Tech Level 8, 9, and subsquent tech levels? Meaning, nations that have 11 or more airlines will be able to utilize their maximum potential (11 airlines in Tech Level 8 = 11 commerce points... or 30 airlines = 30 commerce points)?

Actually what would happen is that 100 Chinese industry points are increased by 10%, permanently, so that from then on China has 110 Industry points plus its commerce, any foriegn aid, and any deficit spending plus any growth.

Wouldn't that mean holding off Rural Electrification for as long as possible means maximum return?

What I mean by this is...

Nation X has 100 industry points in 1940.
Nation X has 300 industry points in 1950.
Nation X has 500 industry points in 1960.

Nation X does Rural Electrification in....

1940 = 10 industry bonus for total of 110 points.
1950 = 30 industry bonus for total of 330 points.
1960 = 50 industry bonus for total of 550 points.

See what I mean? I believe that rural electrification does have long term benefits- a nation that rural electrificates in 1940 will have better hospitals, factories, farms, schools, etc. in rural areas by 1950 or 1960 than a nation that rural electrificates in 1960 for a 50 point bonus? Towards that end, nations who rural electrificates earlier are supposed to have greater benefits than ones who electrificates late.

How should we resolve this dilemma?

14 Fortifications (28 points, all remaining hexes on Atlantic coast)
18 Coastal Artillery Units (54 Points Deployed along Atlantic Coast. All placed in reserve except Calais, Cherbourg, Brest, and Bordeaux )
6 Fortifications (12 Points, in the Pyrenees in the followign hexes:Bayonne, hex south of Bayonne Hex west of Toulouse, Toulouse, hex south-east of Toulouse clear hex two hexes north from Barcelona)
2 Alpine Corps (6 Points, immediatley placed in reserve)

TOTAL: 100 points

EDIT: Thanks Vas!

Oh God GB, why do you hate me so? :p

Seeing how my current National Effort is still going on, does it get nullified by the current system (thus bringing about few results other than building a stronger army, thus bringing about the collapse of my government, thus bringing about the greater influence of the Union in India), or do I get to keep it, and then start using the new system for 1942 onwards?

Also, if I can throw in my two cents, the new system confuses the hell out of me. And at least I got used to the old system. Imagine what it will be like for NEW players. We don't want to scare them off.

Oh God GB, why do you hate me so? :p

Seeing how my current National Effort is still going on, does it get nullified by the current system (thus bringing about few results other than building a stronger army, thus bringing about the collapse of my government, thus bringing about the greater influence of the Union in India), or do I get to keep it, and then start using the new system for 1942 onwards?

Also, if I can throw in my two cents, the new system confuses the hell out of me. And at least I got used to the old system. Imagine what it will be like for NEW players. We don't want to scare them off.
Just say you've got a Command Economy. That's one of the reasons I was against calling Command Economies "Socialist," because they can also be Fascist. Moreover, not all Socialist economies are necessarily Command Economies - I suspect that France, for instance, has a Market Economy. Even some members of the Union quite possibly have Market Economies right now.

Just say you've got a Command Economy. That's one of the reasons I was against calling Command Economies "Socialist," because they can also be Fascist. Moreover, not all Socialist economies are necessarily Command Economies - I suspect that France, for instance, has a Market Economy. Even some members of the Union quite possibly have Market Economies right now.

That's not the problem; the problem is that I made a 5 year plan (that went on for 6 years) and it hasn't finished yet, and I was wondering if I had to end it now, pretend it didn't happen, or if I could wait until it finished and THEN swithced over to the new system. Because if I have to do one of the first two, then I guess you're going to have a new nation in the Warsaw Pact.

Gotcha.

However, will aircraft increase commerce points and income even further at Tech Level 8, 9, and subsquent tech levels? Meaning, nations that have 11 or more airlines will be able to utilize their maximum potential (11 airlines in Tech Level 8 = 11 commerce points... or 30 airlines = 30 commerce points)?
?

yes


Wouldn't that mean holding off Rural Electrification for as long as possible means maximum return?

What I mean by this is...

Nation X has 100 industry points in 1940.
Nation X has 300 industry points in 1950.
Nation X has 500 industry points in 1960.

Nation X does Rural Electrification in....

1940 = 10 industry bonus for total of 110 points.
1950 = 30 industry bonus for total of 330 points.
1960 = 50 industry bonus for total of 550 points.

See what I mean? I believe that rural electrification does have long term benefits- a nation that rural electrificates in 1940 will have better hospitals, factories, farms, schools, etc. in rural areas by 1950 or 1960 than a nation that rural electrificates in 1960 for a 50 point bonus? Towards that end, nations who rural electrificates earlier are supposed to have greater benefits than ones who electrificates late.

How should we resolve this dilemma?

very bad idea politically and socially

OOC: If we command economies want any positive effects we have to declare war all the time? That is odd...anyway build time

YUGOSLAVIA
Income: 26(command economy)
Merchant Marine: 9
Foreign Assistance: 12
Total: 47

Projects:
Rural electrification x2 points (+10% to income)

Dam construction x2 points(+1 to Energy Production)

National Maintenence:
10 points for welfare(level IV welfare)
4.25 points for military

National Builds:
8x Merchant Marines 24 points
1x Light Cruiser "Alexandre" 1 points to complete,completion this year

Foreign spending:
3.75x to Albania Communist faction (Covert)

Points spent: 47

I was wondering if we could build up reserves of resources, such as oil, power wouldn't really make since, but oil does.

Also wondering if the mods find my proposed effects of my projects accurate.

Just say you've got a Command Economy. That's one of the reasons I was against calling Command Economies "Socialist," because they can also be Fascist. Moreover, not all Socialist economies are necessarily Command Economies - I suspect that France, for instance, has a Market Economy. Even some members of the Union quite possibly have Market Economies right now.

Yep, we have a Market economy, although transportation, healthcare, education and power are regulated the government, most other services are controlled by private companies.

That's not the problem; the problem is that I made a 5 year plan (that went on for 6 years) and it hasn't finished yet, and I was wondering if I had to end it now, pretend it didn't happen, or if I could wait until it finished and THEN swithced over to the new system. Because if I have to do one of the first two, then I guess you're going to have a new nation in the Warsaw Pact.

post the link to the specific post so I can look at it please

post the link to the specific post so I can look at it please

Here it are (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10123790&postcount=684)

Note: I did realise that I forgot to factor in maintenance for my transport ships. I gonna work on it later.

Questions:

1. One shipping unit is now worth 1 point, instead of half a point? So, having eight shipping units I would get 8 commerce points instead of four? Or has it always been this way and I was just mistaken?

2. How would we symbolize energy production/purchase? Would I just say "x points for energy production"?

3. Does rural electrification give the 10% boost in growth the year it is begun or the year it ends?

Here's a tentative build, to make sure I got everything right. Please point out any mistakes:

South Africa Build 1938 [New System]
Population: 10,027,100
Production: Market Economy, 18 points (10x Industry, 8x Commerce)
Foreign Aid: None

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-2.5 points
Level III Social Services-3 points

Government Projects
Rural Electrification-1 point
1x HQ Unit-6 points
1x Mechanized Corp-4 points

Points Spent:16.5

Oh my. Erm... comments.

Again, I am strongly against removing factories. A cosmetic change to "economic index" might be appropriate, but I don't like megaprojects becoming the only thing that can benefit an economy. Governments should be able to directly invest in industry.

The deficit spending section doesn't include anything about interest. Probably an oversight.

Energy confuses me. How are energy points given out? What about oil? Do all nations have to import oil or energy?

Upgrading industry at tech level 7 seems odd. Couldn't we just increase productivity cap and let governments build more factories as a stand-in for modernization?

Oh my. Erm... comments.

Again, I am strongly against removing factories. A cosmetic change to "economic index" might be appropriate, but I don't like megaprojects becoming the only thing that can benefit an economy. Governments should be able to directly invest in industry.

The deficit spending section doesn't include anything about interest. Probably an oversight.

Energy confuses me. How are energy points given out? What about oil? Do all nations have to import oil or energy?

Upgrading industry at tech level 7 seems odd. Couldn't we just increase productivity cap and let governments build more factories as a stand-in for modernization?


I agree with your factory-economic index statement. And pretty much the rest of your statements.

And Malkyer, it's been every half million tons of shipping gives 1 point.

And Malkyer, it's been every half million tons of shipping gives 1 point.

Ah...it seems I need to pay more attention, then. Thanks, TLS.

Oh my. Erm... comments.

Again, I am strongly against removing factories. A cosmetic change to "economic index" might be appropriate, but I don't like megaprojects becoming the only thing that can benefit an economy. Governments should be able to directly invest in industry.

The deficit spending section doesn't include anything about interest. Probably an oversight.

Energy confuses me. How are energy points given out? What about oil? Do all nations have to import oil or energy?

Upgrading industry at tech level 7 seems odd. Couldn't we just increase productivity cap and let governments build more factories as a stand-in for modernization?

I would like the option to increase Economic Index to stay.

The expense needed to increase a nation's Economic Index by 1 point should be as follows....

6 in Wartime
12 in National Effort
24 in Normal Spending
48 in Government Cuts

So a "factory unit" which is supposedly 2 points under the old system would go something like this for 2 industry units (or 2 points in Economic Index)...

12 in Wartime
24 in National Effort
48 in Normal Spending
96 in Government Cuts

If you want to increase your economy by 10 points worth of income, it'd be like the following...

60 in Wartime
120 in National Effort
240 in Normal Spending
480 in Government Cuts.

And so on.

------------------------------

Megaprojects should be considered "bonus" or ways to specialize your nation towards what you think you want your nation to undertake.

The option for economic expansion and investment should remain as the system I outlined above.

Also if you do 1 time Rural Electrification, then will the bonus stay from the year you complete it onwards, or would it go like this...

1939: China completes Rural Electrifictaion. 10% to economy for 10 points as China will have 100 Industry by 1939. Total income for 1939 (industry) = 110 points with bonus included.

1940: China's income doesn't change- remains at 100 industry points. The bonus disappears, meaning 100 income, not 110 like in 1939.

Or....

1940: China's income increases to 110 points through building 10 new economic index income points. The bonus stays, giving China 11 extra points (10% of 110 economic index points) for a total income of 121 points.

Or....

1940: China's income increases to 110 like example 2, but the bonus is still 10 points from 1939 (applying the 1-time bonus from completion of electrification) for an income of 120 points.


See where I'm confused?

I'd agree with your system, except that I think it should be:
12 points wartime
18 points national effort
36 points normal spending/government cuts.

The factory costs seemed fine to me. No reason to change them.

What is so hard about this?! Its a one time 10% increase! So 1939 you build it, 1940 you go up to 110 points instead of 100, and in 1941 you stay at 110 points... you don't keep getting 10% each year lumped onto the first 10%.

What is so hard about this?! Its a one time 10% increase! So 1939 you build it, 1940 you go up to 110 points instead of 100, and in 1941 you stay at 110 points... you don't keep getting 10% each year lumped onto the first 10%.

But how do I naturally go up?

'Tis weird. I like the system we had before...

I'm very much against implimenting these additions. Too complex, too confusing expecially for new players considering many of our current don't understand the old system very well. The energy counters I feel aren't neccessary. It does add another element of realism to the game but also adds another level of complexity needlessly. There hasn't been a precident that requires this.

I'm very much against implimenting these additions. Too complex, too confusing expecially for new players considering many of our current don't understand the old system very well. The energy counters I feel aren't neccessary. It does add another element of realism to the game but also adds another level of complexity needlessly. There hasn't been a precident that requires this.

Exactly.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Exactly.

If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

At this point, I think that if many players oppose the suggested system, we simply shouldn't impliment the changes. The old system worked fine. Yes, it wasn't as realistic as it could have been, but it worked.

Artista, the reason why I'm confused is becaise of two reasons.

1. Rural Electrification logically benefits the economy and the nation's populace on a constant basis. It doesn't just up and disappear from 1 year.

2. Will I lose the bonus once the second year rolls around- meaning, if I had 100 points in Year 1, get 10% bonus for 110 total points in Year 1. Then will the points drop back to 100 points in Year 2, or will the 10 points stay with me forever, from Year 2 to Year 10,000,000? Or what happens if my industry expands in Year 2, then what happens to that bonus?


That aside, I want to keep economic improvement (factories, investing your points into increasing your economy, and so on).

It's very simple. Here's what happens.

In 1940, China finishes Rural Electrification. China had 100 points.
1941: China has 110 points. China increases availabel points by 10.
1942: China has 120 points.

Any questions?

It's very simple. Here's what happens.

In 1940, China finishes Rural Electrification. China had 100 points.
1941: China has 110 points. China increases availabel points by 10.
1942: China has 120 points.

Any questions?

So basically 10 permanent points from 1940 to the year 1 million AD?

consider it like a 10 percent growth...it is handled in exactly the same way as growth, just it is a one year thing.

Sharina, rural electrification is a one time thing because it has improved the overall base of the economy, and further growth is based on that new base. So 110 points with 3% growth will give you more than 3% growth at 100 points.

It also has massive social effects, reducing the isolation and differences between urban and rural life like nothing else in history. It has to stay.

Factories can stay. Personally, I like them. Megaprojects will just be considered factories.. although they do add flaver.

Rules for tech level 7 can be ignored until we actually reach tech level 7. But that will be soon. Tech level 7 however is the jet age, and the beginnings of the information age, and productivity once factories are upgraded significantly increases. But you actually have to upgrade them. One reason Japan and Germany postwar outcompeted the Americans and British is because they had brand new shiny tech level 7 factories and the US and British were still mostly equipped at tech level 6 economically. It took years for the US and Britian to modernize. Same with merchant marines and airlines.

We need to have something to simulate one of the most important factors in world history in the 20th Century.... OIL. I am open to suggestions.

However, I can easily provide information on energy resources, I have that information readily accessable.

By the way, interest is 5% accrued annually on your national debt.

We need to have something to simulate one of the most important factors in world history in the 20th Century.... OIL. I am open to suggestions.

However, I can easily provide information on energy resources, I have that information readily accessable.

Anything wrong with a case-by-case basis? For instance, China was cut off from oil during the Chinese Revolution. You said "China can't build X because of no oil." Why do we need to build it into the system?

Anything wrong with a case-by-case basis? For instance, China was cut off from oil during the Chinese Revolution. You said "China can't build X because of no oil." Why do we need to build it into the system?

I get accused of being arbitrary and that tends to slow things down as I then have to spend pages defending my decisions

Sharina, rural electrification is a one time thing because it has improved the overall base of the economy, and further growth is based on that new base. So 110 points with 3% growth will give you more than 3% growth at 100 points.

It also has massive social effects, reducing the isolation and differences between urban and rural life like nothing else in history. It has to stay.

Thanks for clearing that up, GB. I think I understand Rural Electrification now- sorry for the confusion.

Factories can stay. Personally, I like them. Megaprojects will just be considered factories.. although they do add flaver.

Will do. Perhaps megaprojects could confer bonuses such as increased commerce points (to buy or sell oil or uranium or whatever vital resources), accelerated tech development (shave a few years off the time needed to reach the next tech level), bonus economic points (extra points annually), and so forth.

That would allow E20 nations to develop their pride and joy, as well as develop distinct flavors. For example, what would San Fransico be without the Golden Gate Bridge? Or the European Union without the Channel Tunnel? Or Japan without its high speed railroads? And so on.

Rules for tech level 7 can be ignored until we actually reach tech level 7. But that will be soon. Tech level 7 however is the jet age, and the beginnings of the information age, and productivity once factories are upgraded significantly increases. But you actually have to upgrade them. One reason Japan and Germany postwar outcompeted the Americans and British is because they had brand new shiny tech level 7 factories and the US and British were still mostly equipped at tech level 6 economically. It took years for the US and Britian to modernize. Same with merchant marines and airlines.

I have no problem with that.

We need to have something to simulate one of the most important factors in world history in the 20th Century.... OIL. I am open to suggestions.

However, I can easily provide information on energy resources, I have that information readily accessable.

Thats a definite aye. I agree with this- we can't have realism in E20 without limitations, like how much a nation can do with the resources it has access to. Unless we want E20 to become just another one of these NS Earth's with no regard for trade, resources, embargoes, and "You need Resource X to build Object Y".

We could create a very simple resource system divided into 4 resources.

1. Oil
2. Metals (encompasses steel, aluminum, titanium, tin, copper, zinc, etc.)
3. Uranium (for nukes and nuclear power generation)
4. Foodstuffs (encompasses all food)

Foodstuffs can act as a population growth or starvation tool. For example, Russia couldn't feed itself in 1970's... or the US has a surplus of food that could feed starving people in Africa, and so on.

What do you think?

I get accused of being arbitrary and that tends to slow things down as I then have to spend pages defending my decisions

Fine then, how about this rule:
When a country without sufficient domestic oil production is cut off from foreign oil, they can't build X. If they are cut off for Y time, they can't maintain Z, and Z turns into Infantry/Sailboats/Blimps.

Simple, unambiguous, effective.

Fine then, how about this rule:
When a country without sufficient domestic oil production is cut off from foreign oil, they can't build X. If they are cut off for Y time, they can't maintain Z, and Z turns into Infantry/Sailboats/Blimps.

Simple, unambiguous, effective.

I can live with that for simplicity sake

Fine then, how about this rule:
When a country without sufficient domestic oil production is cut off from foreign oil, they can't build X. If they are cut off for Y time, they can't maintain Z, and Z turns into Infantry/Sailboats/Blimps.

Simple, unambiguous, effective.

A good idea, but how does planes suddenly become blimps? Or metallic naval vessels becoming sailboats?

A better way would be to either place these planes or naval vessels into reserve or scrap these things into useful metals to build non-oil things like guns or railroad tracks or bunkers or whatever.

or just make them slow and combat ineffective, i mean many units in history ran out of fuel and had to make do...most of them German though, like the DAK :(

A good idea, but how does planes suddenly become blimps? Or metallic naval vessels becoming sailboats?

A better way would be to either place these planes or naval vessels into reserve or scrap these things into useful metals to build non-oil things like guns or railroad tracks or bunkers or whatever.

aircraft and ships have to go into reserve until oil is available. Pilot training will also degrade seriously.

However, some factory complexes will be specifically indicated as oil production centers, as that is important should strategic bombing rear its ugly head.

or just make them slow and combat ineffective, i mean many units in history ran out of fuel and had to make do...most of them German though, like the DAK :(

they will degrade one level for simplicity sake. motorized become infantry, mechanized become motorized, armored becomes mechanized and headquarters units will remain unaffected to make my life easier.

Sharina does have a point about food and some consideration there will be needed.

I will give it some thought.

Assuming we're agreed on most economic stuff... I'd like to propose three Megaprojects for China (to cover tech levels 5 and 6).


Project 1: (Tech Level 5)

The Two-Rivers Canal (connect Yangtze and Yellow Rivers)

Benefits / Bonus: Unsure.

Project 2: (Tech Level 6)

Create a massive public transportation system (5 Projects in one).

1. Lay down at least 1 million miles of railroad. There are to be eight railroad tracks running in each railroad line as opposed to the USA or Union's two railroad tracks (otherwise known as a double track).

2. At least 15 major interstate highways throughout China (like the USA's Interstates 10, 20, 30, 40, and so on).

3. Each Chinese city with a population of 100,000 or above will build an extensive subway network.

4. Each Chinese city with a population of 250,000 or above will build commuter rail networks similiar to the Metro, MBTA, El, etc. in the USA.

5. Passenger Rail travel will be provided to every Chinese city, as the six track rail lines will allow for such traffic to occur. If necessary, expand it to eight track railroads to allow for increased freight or passenger service.


Benefits / Bonus:

1. Reduction of Chinese dependency on oil for domestic transportation. Probably halve the amount of oil needed for China's domestic oil needs as there will be a lot more mass transit available. That means far less need for automobiles and all the excesses of automobiles (like in RL USA)

2. Accelerate progression from Tech Level 6 to 7 by one year as there's a lot of new modern infrastructure and opens up Chinese cities to millions of people living in the suburbs. This allows more high tech inner-city commerce and industries to develop. Also, the immense increase in domestic train freight service means a lot factories and such gain easier access to mass quanities of raw resources.

3. Probably some commerce or economic point bonus as a lot more freight are now able to move via rail than on ship, roads, or air.



Project 3: (Tech Level 6)

80% - 100% maximization of Chinese hydroelectric potential to reduce China's dependence on fossil fuels and uranium for power generation, as well as being far more enviromentally friendly than huge polluting power plants. Towards that end, to make the whole 6000 TW potential accessible, roads and railroads will be bulit through mountains, hills, canyons, and forests. Tunnels, bridges, or the like will be built through harsh terrain if necessary.

It has been estimated that RL China has 6000 TW/h power potential from hydroelectricty, whereas the RL USA consumes roughly 3600 TW/h of electricty annually (21st century figures).

Benefits / Bonus:

1. 90% or greater reduction in Chinese requirement for oil for power generation as hydroelectric power will be sufficient to supply all Chinese power requirements. There will be no need for coal or oil power plants, which means greatly reduced dependency on oil for electricity and far less air pollution.

2. The health of Chinese people improves somewhat as the air pollution factor is lessened considerably with very few or no coal and oil power plants (compared to RL USA).

3. Probably some other benefits- either industrial or technological with the new influx of electricity and power available.

----------------------------

What do you think? Please let me know.

Assuming we're agreed on most economic stuff... I'd like to propose three Megaprojects for China (to cover tech levels 5 and 6).


If I were you, I would be less worried about megaprojects and more worried about not having a bloody communist revolution.

EDIT: Also, economic megaprojects are treated as factories. They might have some nifty side benefits like decreasing your dependance on foreign oil, but for benefits, that'll be a direct result of whatever goes into them.

If I were you, I would be less worried about megaprojects and more worried about not having a bloody communist revolution.

EDIT: Also, economic megaprojects are treated as factories. They might have some nifty side benefits like decreasing your dependance on foreign oil, but for benefits, that'll be a direct result of whatever goes into them.

I believe that if I do megaprojects, then the Chinese people will be happy that the government is doing something good for them as GB said with the whole Rural electrification thing.

Very well, I propose the following. I think that the following list will allow for interesting scenarios without making things overly complex. After this, I'll shut up, I promise. :)

1. Factories are replaced by economic index. Costs are 1/2 factory. (Small change).
2. Except for flavor, megaprojects are treated as improving economic index. (Large change, simplifies things enormously.)
3. Oil is handled through the system I proposed a bit ago. (small change, allows for realism without adding complexity.)
4. Command and market economies are exactly the same. (No change, keeps things simple.)
5. Deficit spending is not allowed. (No change, keeps things simple.)

I recognize that some changes have been proposed which would make things more realistic. On the other hand, E20 has done fine without them for a long time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I firmly believe that the economic section of the game should not be the main part- we should be dealing with international diplomacy, not economic growth rates.

Very well, I propose the following. I think that the following list will allow for interesting scenarios without making things overly complex. After this, I'll shut up, I promise. :)

1. Factories are replaced by economic index. Costs are 1/2 factory. (Small change).
2. Except for flavor, megaprojects are treated as improving economic index. (Large change, simplifies things enormously.)
3. Oil is handled through the system I proposed a bit ago. (small change, allows for realism without adding complexity.)
4. Command and market economies are exactly the same. (No change, keeps things simple.)
5. Deficit spending is not allowed. (No change, keeps things simple.)

I recognize that some changes have been proposed which would make things more realistic. On the other hand, E20 has done fine without them for a long time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I firmly believe that the economic section of the game should not be the main part- we should be dealing with international diplomacy, not economic growth rates.

I agree. If we get TOO realistic, it won't be as fun anymore, AND it will scare off all the new people. And if there are no more new people, who will we get to play nations such as Canada, or Afghanistan, or...

Well, you get the point.

I agree. If we get TOO realistic, it won't be as fun anymore, AND it will scare off all the new people. And if there are no more new people, who will we get to play nations such as Canada, or Afghanistan, or...

Well, you get the point.

I third this motion.

The only reason why I brought up the resource thing is to prevent NS uber-resource crap, like building oil intensive stuff without oil, or huge steel structures without steel available, or nations somehow having infinite stockpiles of resources like in mainstream NS.

I brought up the food issue because it does play a cruical factor in population growth. If you have a surplus of food, your population can easily expand. If you barely break even with food, there's very little population expansion. If there's scarce food, then negative population growth (starvation and famine).

I brought up the Megaprojects thing because it does help nations establish themselves, and allow E20 to have incredible things. Imagine a bridge spanning the Straits of Gilbraratar? Or a tunnel connecting Alaska to Siberia? Or a mile tall skycraper? Stuff like that should be exciting and make people go "wow! That can be done in RL! E20 looks exciting! I'll join!" kind of thing.

However for the rest, best to keep it simple.

See, this is what happens when you forget to check the forums for a day or two. After review, I must say I basically support Middle Snu's proposal, although I am especially fond of keeping track of oil and food. It makes little sense to not have the foundation of 20th century politics not represented in our gameplay. I'll hold off on Australia's builds until I see an example from another nation to make sure I understand. As it is, I will still need to go back and check my points, as I did rural electrification back in 1936 (pg 49--#727)

Assuming we're agreed on most economic stuff... I'd like to propose three Megaprojects for China (to cover tech levels 5 and 6).


Project 1: (Tech Level 5)

The Two-Rivers Canal (connect Yangtze and Yellow Rivers)

Benefits / Bonus: Unsure.

Project 2: (Tech Level 6)

Create a massive public transportation system (5 Projects in one).

1. Lay down at least 1 million miles of railroad. There are to be eight railroad tracks running in each railroad line as opposed to the USA or Union's two railroad tracks (otherwise known as a double track).

2. At least 15 major interstate highways throughout China (like the USA's Interstates 10, 20, 30, 40, and so on).

3. Each Chinese city with a population of 100,000 or above will build an extensive subway network.

4. Each Chinese city with a population of 250,000 or above will build commuter rail networks similiar to the Metro, MBTA, El, etc. in the USA.

5. Passenger Rail travel will be provided to every Chinese city, as the six track rail lines will allow for such traffic to occur. If necessary, expand it to eight track railroads to allow for increased freight or passenger service.


Benefits / Bonus:

1. Reduction of Chinese dependency on oil for domestic transportation. Probably halve the amount of oil needed for China's domestic oil needs as there will be a lot more mass transit available. That means far less need for automobiles and all the excesses of automobiles (like in RL USA)

2. Accelerate progression from Tech Level 6 to 7 by one year as there's a lot of new modern infrastructure and opens up Chinese cities to millions of people living in the suburbs. This allows more high tech inner-city commerce and industries to develop. Also, the immense increase in domestic train freight service means a lot factories and such gain easier access to mass quanities of raw resources.

3. Probably some commerce or economic point bonus as a lot more freight are now able to move via rail than on ship, roads, or air.



Project 3: (Tech Level 6)

80% - 100% maximization of Chinese hydroelectric potential to reduce China's dependence on fossil fuels and uranium for power generation, as well as being far more enviromentally friendly than huge polluting power plants. Towards that end, to make the whole 6000 TW potential accessible, roads and railroads will be bulit through mountains, hills, canyons, and forests. Tunnels, bridges, or the like will be built through harsh terrain if necessary.

It has been estimated that RL China has 6000 TW/h power potential from hydroelectricty, whereas the RL USA consumes roughly 3600 TW/h of electricty annually (21st century figures).

Benefits / Bonus:

1. 90% or greater reduction in Chinese requirement for oil for power generation as hydroelectric power will be sufficient to supply all Chinese power requirements. There will be no need for coal or oil power plants, which means greatly reduced dependency on oil for electricity and far less air pollution.

2. The health of Chinese people improves somewhat as the air pollution factor is lessened considerably with very few or no coal and oil power plants (compared to RL USA).

3. Probably some other benefits- either industrial or technological with the new influx of electricity and power available.

----------------------------

What do you think? Please let me know.
Because you're a democracy now, and the system works (at least for the moment), you might want to check the Opposition's response in your News Thread.


Very well, I propose the following. I think that the following list will allow for interesting scenarios without making things overly complex. After this, I'll shut up, I promise.

1. Factories are replaced by economic index. Costs are 1/2 factory. (Small change).
2. Except for flavor, megaprojects are treated as improving economic index. (Large change, simplifies things enormously.)
3. Oil is handled through the system I proposed a bit ago. (small change, allows for realism without adding complexity.)
4. Command and market economies are exactly the same. (No change, keeps things simple.)
5. Deficit spending is not allowed. (No change, keeps things simple.)

I recognize that some changes have been proposed which would make things more realistic. On the other hand, E20 has done fine without them for a long time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I firmly believe that the economic section of the game should not be the main part- we should be dealing with international diplomacy, not economic growth rates.
As for Middle Snu's restricted reforms, I definitely agree with (1) and (2). I don't see what protects (3) from being arbitrary. And as for (4) and (5), I don't really see how the differences between Command and Market economies really make the system all that much more complex. However, treating them the same, of course, just gives the Union more power - so if you're happy with that, I guess I can be.

But even though it's not really in my nature, I can see a possible compromise. For purposes of flavor (as with megaprojects), we could say that a National Effort can take the form of either "deficit spending" or "labor mobilization" (some combinations would probably be allowed, as with the New Deal, but it would always lean towards one or the other primarily); prolonged "labor mobilization" would have sociopolitical effects (determined by the Mods), whereas prolonged "deficit spending" would have economic effects (also determined by the Mods). Players who kept these things up would be issued an IC warning or two before suffering the "effects" (which could range from a few strikes and protests or a moderate recession, to fullscale economic collapse or bloody revolution, depending on the situation), but they wouldn't otherwise know really how long they could keep it up, or what bad things might happen to them without investigating in-character.

Incidentally, since we have a few more points to spare, I think, we're probably building monuments - specifically, giant bronze statues named "Prometheus Unchained," at Berlin; and "Justice Set Free," at Moscow.

for now we will use the system in place, but reform is needed and I will work on it some more.

YUGOSLAVIA
1938
Base Points: 26
Merchant Marine: 9
Foreign Assistance: 12
Total: 47

Research:
VTOL Aircraft(aiming for helicopters and not VTOL fighters)
6 points this year


National Maintenence:
4 Points for military
10 points for welfare

National Builds:
8x Merchant Marines 24 points
1x Light Cruiser "Alexandre" 1 points this year, (completion)
Upgrades to two Armored Corps, to Panthers and Tigers, 1xpoints to France for the tanks) 1 year to upgrade

Foreign Aid
1x points to Albanian Communist

Bolivia 1938-4 points.

Finish 1 fortification-1 point.
Upgrade 1 garrison to 1 motorized infantry-1 point.
1 pilot-2 points.

Japanese Builds for 1938
National Effort (Last Year)
62(x2) + 30 Shipping Units = 154

Military Maintenance: 49.5 Points
Domestic Services = 18 Points
1 National Airline = 5
2 International Airlines = 12
Aid to Siam = 7.5 Points

Total: Points Spent

Hate to ask this, but why are you building almost twice as much shipping as you need? Plus, why all the leftover points? If you don't want them, give them to Argentina. I can always use more money...

Before I post my build for 1938, I need GB's opinion and approval / dis-approval of my 4 projects I proposed yesterday or the day before...

Project 1: (Tech Level 5)

The Two-Rivers Canal (connect Yangtze and Yellow Rivers)

Cost: 8 points.

Benefits / Bonus: Unsure.

Project 2: (Tech Level 6)

Create a massive public transportation system (5 Projects in one).

1. Lay down at least 1 million miles of railroad. There are to be eight railroad tracks running in each railroad line as opposed to the USA or Union's two railroad tracks (otherwise known as a double track).

2. At least 15 major interstate highways throughout China (like the USA's Interstates 10, 20, 30, 40, and so on).

3. Each Chinese city with a population of 100,000 or above will build an extensive subway network.

4. Each Chinese city with a population of 250,000 or above will build commuter rail networks similiar to the Metro, MBTA, El, etc. in the USA.

5. Passenger Rail travel will be provided to every Chinese city, as the six track rail lines will allow for such traffic to occur. If necessary, expand it to eight track railroads to allow for increased freight or passenger service.


Cost: 15 - 20 points.


Benefits / Bonus:

1. Reduction of Chinese dependency on oil for domestic transportation. Probably halve the amount of oil needed for China's domestic oil needs as there will be a lot more mass transit available. That means far less need for automobiles and all the excesses of automobiles (like in RL USA)

2. Accelerate progression from Tech Level 6 to 7 by 1 to 3 years as there's a lot of new modern infrastructure and opens up Chinese cities to millions of people living in the suburbs. This allows more high tech inner-city commerce and industries to develop. Also, the immense increase in domestic train freight service means a lot factories and such gain easier access to mass quanities of raw resources.

3. Probably some commerce or economic point bonus as a lot more freight are now able to move via rail than on ship, roads, or air.



Project 3: (Tech Level 6)

80% - 100% maximization of Chinese hydroelectric potential to reduce China's dependence on fossil fuels and uranium for power generation, as well as being far more enviromentally friendly than huge polluting power plants. Towards that end, to make the whole 6000 TW potential accessible, roads and railroads will be bulit through mountains, hills, canyons, and forests. Tunnels, bridges, or the like will be built through harsh terrain if necessary.

It has been estimated that RL China has 6000 TW/h power potential from hydroelectricty, whereas the RL USA consumes roughly 3600 TW/h of electricty annually (21st century figures).

Costs (to utilize 6000 TW/h potential through road, rail, bridge, and tunnel building through all terrain to access the dam sites): 20 points.

Benefits / Bonus:

1. 90% or greater reduction in Chinese requirement for oil for power generation as hydroelectric power will be sufficient to supply all Chinese power requirements. There will be no need for coal or oil power plants, which means greatly reduced dependency on oil for electricity and far less air pollution.

2. The health of Chinese people improves somewhat as the air pollution factor is lessened considerably with very few or no coal and oil power plants (compared to RL USA).

3. Probably some other benefits- either industrial or technological with the new influx of electricity and power available.

-----------------------------

Keep in mind I will not be doing all these projects all at once. I just want to know how much they'll cost so I can factor them into my plans for 1938 - 1950 or so.

Very well, I propose the following. I think that the following list will allow for interesting scenarios without making things overly complex. After this, I'll shut up, I promise. :)

1. Factories are replaced by economic index. Costs are 1/2 factory. (Small change).

Costs?


2. Except for flavor, megaprojects are treated as improving economic index. (Large change, simplifies things enormously.) thats fine, I assume you are talking about things like rural electrification, Panama Canal improvements etc


3. Oil is handled through the system I proposed a bit ago. (small change, allows for realism without adding complexity.)

Thats fine


4. Command and market economies are exactly the same. (No change, keeps things simple.)
5. Deficit spending is not allowed. (No change, keeps things simple.)

I recognize that some changes have been proposed which would make things more realistic. On the other hand, E20 has done fine without them for a long time. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

problem is that it is broke, and needs to be fixed. At this time there is no mechanism in place to show why Capitalism ultimately beat Socialism during the Cold War. Variable growth rates would allow that to be simulated without too much difficulty. However, deficit spending is a difficult thing to keep track of, so I will simply recommend this.

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 5%

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1% (essentially simulates large scale budget deficits)

Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1% (requires level 5 social spending to offset social costs)

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 1%

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3.5, no growth

Market Economy Total War (not available until second year of war), Income x 4, no growth first year, -1% growth second and additional years. Plus -2% growth for each year postwar for every year Total War economy was in place. (simulates post war recession, large budget deficits)

This is to simulate the fact that Market economies have more capital available and more slack then Command economies but are slower to respond.

Incidently, if National Efforts continue for more than 5 years, there is a penalty. Accumalated budget deficits in the Market economies trigger a recession of 1 year for every year of the national effort (-2% growth for duration). In Command Economies social unrest begins unless social services are increased to the next level.

Costs?
By costs are 1/2 factory, I mean that adding 1 point to economic index costs 1/2 of a factory. 12 in wartime, 18 during national effort, 36 during peacetime.

thats fine, I assume you are talking about things like rural electrification, Panama Canal improvements etc

Rural electrification can stay.. a lot of people have used it already. Other than that, yes.

problem is that it is broke, and needs to be fixed. At this time there is no mechanism in place to show why Capitalism ultimately beat Socialism during the Cold War. Variable growth rates would allow that to be simulated without too much difficulty. However, deficit spending is a difficult thing to keep track of, so I will simply recommend this
(snip)

Fine by me.

By costs are 1/2 factory, I mean that adding 1 point to economic index costs 1/2 of a factory. 12 in wartime, 18 during national effort, 36 during peacetime.

apparently we have agreement... I will type everything up tomorrow and post it on the first page. Can you do me a favor and look up where the PC countries are economically at the moment?

I'll try... I have to go to bed in about an hour, though, so I don't know how far I'll get.

So the economic stuff is resolved then? Thats great news! :)

However, before I'm able to post my 1938 build, I need to know about my proposed megaprojects so that I can factor their costs (not all of them at once) in my 1938 and 1939 builds.

I'm not sure what form of economy I have- As it stands now, China is divided between Nationalists (capitalists / market economy) and Communists (command economy) so I'm not sure how to factor that into economic stuff.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)
Population:13 million
1938 builds: 28 points base + 1 from Natural Growth, plus 34 for shipping and airlines, total of 63 points

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). - 5 points basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
1 x Light Bomber = 1p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
3 x Flak Artillery = .75p
2 x Carrier Fighter Units = 2p
1 x Carrier Bomber Units = 1p
3 x Fleet Carrier = 3p (Vincente Sewell, Dario Echandia, Francisco de Paula Santander)
2 x Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
TOTAL: 26p

National Builds: (32p left)
8 Points to Panama Canal effort. (To make it 10/10)
10 Points to MEU Government
5 Points to Immigrant Assistance
1 Point to sponser Youth Sport Programs (Soccer, Rugby, etc)

Mega Projects: (8p left)
Rural Electrification = 1p
Improved Super Highway System between Panama, Colombia, and Venezuela = ???
Standardized Railway Construction throughout Gran Colombia = ???

How much will my two other Mega Projects cost?

However much you want them to. Megaprojects are now treated as increasing economic index, except for flavor. For instance, if you want a highway megaproject in Venezuala, you could spend 36 points to increase Venezuala's income by 1 point every turn.

However much you want them to. Megaprojects are now treated as increasing economic index, except for flavor. For instance, if you want a highway megaproject in Venezuala, you could spend 36 points to increase Venezuala's income by 1 point every turn.

Now I'm confused.

GB said Megaprojects cost between 6 - 20 points? :confused:

Also, what of the bonuses? There should be some bonuses associated with megaprojects such as reduced oil dependency (hydroelectric power plants), reduced air pollution and lower domestic oil consumption (massive mass transit systems), accelerated "catch up" in tech level, bonus points per turn like Panama Canal, etc.

Hate to ask this, but why are you building almost twice as much shipping as you need?

Twice as mcuh as I need? Not entirly sure what you mean but my reasoning is that I'm sick of having to pay over 50% of my income to my military.

Plus, why all the leftover points? If you don't want them, give them to Argentina. I can always use more money...

I guess you can get some....how many do you want and what can I get in return?

Now I'm confused.

GB said Megaprojects cost between 6 - 20 points? :confused:

Also, what of the bonuses? There should be some bonuses associated with megaprojects such as reduced oil dependency (hydroelectric power plants), reduced air pollution and lower domestic oil consumption (massive mass transit systems), accelerated "catch up" in tech level, bonus points per turn like Panama Canal, etc.
Since "megaprojects" are simply things that increase a nation's industrial index, strategic moves, or energy output, you simply buy those directly and say that it's coming from canal digging or highway building or hydroelectric dam construction. There are currently no other bonuses.

Kordo, his point was that the maximum amount of income you can get from commerce is 34 points, so adding merchant shipping above that simply gives you cushion for war losses.

Megaprojects are considered now to be industrilization, transportation or energy projects. Anything already spent or planned (and posted, such as India's 5 year plan) is allowed to continue as is, but from now on the rule is 24 points gets you a 1 point increase in production annually, and takes a year to do.

The exceptions are certain events like striking oil and needing the infrastructure to export it, and certain types of canals. These are referee determined as to cost, as geography plays a big part, along with other factors.

ooc
using 24 as an average for national effort, peacetime and wartime costs, so that there is no incentive to contually go to national effort and war to increase industry

Kordo, his point was that the maximum amount of income you can get from commerce is 34 points, so adding merchant shipping above that simply gives you cushion for war losses.

Megaprojects are considered now to be industrilization, transportation or energy projects. Anything already spent or planned (and posted, such as India's 5 year plan) is allowed to continue as is, but from now on the rule is 24 points gets you a 1 point increase in production annually, and takes a year to do.

The exceptions are certain events like striking oil and needing the infrastructure to export it, and certain types of canals. These are referee determined as to cost, as geography plays a big part, along with other factors.

ooc
using 24 as an average for national effort, peacetime and wartime costs, so that there is no incentive to contually go to national effort and war to increase industry

Very well.

In that case, what type of bonuses will I acquire should I go ahead with my megaprojects (although not all at once, obviously)?

My projects:

1. Canal between Yellow and Yangtze Rivers

2. Dramatic expansion of railroad networks
A. Subways
B. Commuter Rail
C. Freight Rail
D. Connect every Chinese city via rail

3. Hydroelectric Dams

(I know the bonus for this- elimination of oil for electricity generation, and should either increase available oil for China's military or increase China's oil counter to something like 1 point of oil for every 30 or 40 production points instead of 1 point of oil for every 15 - 20 production points)

4. Rural Electrification

(Already discussed- this should go quite nicely hand-in-hand with Hydroelectric Dams megaproject)

The cost of military units can be found here
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9108039&postcount=1

You may also spend points to increase your domestic productivity.

Rural electrication, available at tech level 6, costs 1 point for every 10 million people and boosts your economy by 10% permanently. This is a revolutionary change and brings the rural and urban portions of your society closer together. Builds national cohesion in addition to its economic benefits.

Industrialization projects are designed to increase your domestic production. For every 24 points spent, you may increase your domestic economy by 1 point a year. Takes one year to accomplish.

Certain things, like striking oil or building canals, have variable costs and benefits and are referee determined. Certain transportation projects generally have variable costs as well.

You may improve your transportation infrastructure (increased rail links, or highways etc) by spending 2 points per 10 million people. This will automatically move an area that is tech level 2 or 3 to tech level 4. There will be social costs to this in some cases. This will increase your strategic moves available during wartime, and help accelerate your move up the tech level ladder as well.

from the first page

I will post my new builds once I get a reply from India over TG as to how much aid he needs this year, oh and I may be able to budget the new Korean Air Force out of this year instead of next year as planned.

from the first page

Gotcha.

However, I need a little more clarification on the transportation network thing.

Are there "levels" to it? For example...

Railroads:

1. Network of 2 track railroads
2. Network of 4 track railroads
3. Network of 6 track railroads
4. Network of in excess of 1 million miles of railroads (RL USA has 180,000 miles I believe)

Roads:

1. Dirt Roads
2. Asphalt Roads
3. Concrete Roads
4. Network of 2 lane highways
5. Network of 4 lane interstates

(and so on)

Also, once I finish expanding my transportation network (at Tech level 6) for 106 points, then can I expand it again for another 106 points or what?

I think I may be able to post my 1938 build tonight or tomorrow.

Also, by the way, any idea what the cost would be for the Yellow-Yangtze River Canal? You said the costs are variable?

Gotcha.

However, I need a little more clarification on the transportation network thing.

Are there "levels" to it? For example...

Railroads:

1. Network of 2 track railroads
2. Network of 4 track railroads
3. Network of 6 track railroads
4. Network of in excess of 1 million miles of railroads (RL USA has 180,000 miles I believe)

Roads:

1. Dirt Roads
2. Asphalt Roads
3. Concrete Roads
4. Network of 2 lane highways
5. Network of 4 lane interstates

(and so on)

Also, once I finish expanding my transportation network (at Tech level 6) for 106 points, then can I expand it again for another 106 points or what?

I think I may be able to post my 1938 build tonight or tomorrow.

Also, by the way, any idea what the cost would be for the Yellow-Yangtze River Canal? You said the costs are variable?

no levels, too much work to keep track of everyones transportation net that way... assume its the best available, with better quality closer to cities etc, you may specify however road versus rail projects.

The Grand Canal will cost China 24 points, as it is using an existing waterway and basically just redredging it and will add a point a year to production due to increased barge traffic etc.

SWEET JESUS!

On the new system you need level 5 social to do a command economy national effort? Haaaarsh.

You still didn't answer if my current economy plan will be allowed to go it's course, or if you're pulling the plug now.

EDITING IN PROGRESS

1938 Economies

North America
USA 235 + 7 colonial + 34 commerce, (oil exporter)(includes colonies) (LTA, Pan American)
Canada 24 + 10 (8 ships, 2 airlines) (oil exporter) (LTA, Pan American)

Latin America and Caribbean
Mexico 10 (oil exporter) (Pan American)
Central America 5 (Pan American)
Cuba 2 (Pan American)
Virgin Islands 1 (Pan American)
Peru 2 (Pan American)
Bolivia 5
Uruguay 2 (Pan American)
Paraguay 3
Dutch West Indies 4 (oil exporter)(goes to Netherlands) (Pan American)
Colombia 24+26 commerce (oil exporter)
Ecuador 4 (Pan American)
Chile 9 (Pan American, LTA)
Argentina 11+19 commerce
Brazil 12

Oceania
Australia 26 + 1 colonial +5 commerce (LTA)
New Zealand 4 (LTA)
Philippines 6 (goes to US)
American Pacific Islands 1 (goes to US)(mostly represents fishing)
British and Australian Pacific Islands 1 (goes to Australia) (as above)

East and South Asia
India 16 (LTA)
China 76+14 commerce
Japan 60+20 commerce
Japanese Formosa 4 (goes to Japan)
British Burma 6 (oil exporter)(goes to Britain)
British Malaya 8 (rubber exporter)(goes to Britain)
British Borneo 4 (oil exporter)(goes to Britain)
Korea 10
Siam 3
USEA 10+6 commerce (Defensive alliance with US)
Manchuria 42+6 commerce
Portuguese Timor 2 (goes to Portugal)
Afghanistan 4
Dutch East Indies 8 (oil exporter, 4 goes to Japan, 4 to Netherlands)


Africa
South Africa 20+3 commerce (LTA)
British East Africa 6 (goes to Britain)
British West Africa 11 (oil exporter)(goes to Britain)
French West Africa 3 (goes to France)
Portuguese Africa 4 (goes to Portugal)
Belgian Congo 6 (goes to Belgium)
Egypt 7 (goes to Britain)
Algeria 10+1 commerce (oil exporter) (LTA)
Morocco 5 (LTA)
Italian Tunisia 2
Italian Libya 7 (oil exporter)

Eurasia and Mideast
UK 75 domestic + 41 colonial +34 commerce (LTA)
Ireland 5 (to Britain) (LTA)
Italy 28 domestic + 9 colonial + 15 commerce (LTA)
Portugal 4 domestic + 6 Colonial (LTA)
Czechslovakia 18 (Pact)
Yugoslavia 24+7 commerce (Pact)
Spain 20 (LTA)
Hungary 10 (Pact)
Rumania 21+4 commerce (oil exporter) (Pact)
France 70 +3 colonial+20 commerce (pro Pact)
Belgium 20 + 6 colonial (LTA)
Sweden 24+27 commerce
Norway 7
Denmark 7
Netherlands 8 + 8 colonial + 6 commerce
Bulgaria 4
Greece 5
Ottoman Empire 22+11 commerce
Burgundy 22 (LTA)
Union 508+34 commerce (Pact)
Iceland 3 (fishing) (LTA)

TECH LEVELS HAVENT BEEN ADDED YET
tech level 6
tech level 5
tech level 4
tech level 3 or less

Remember, military forces are limited to regular ground unit or 4 air or 4 naval units (naval units are 2 battleships or carriers, or 5 cruisers or 10 destroyers or submarines) per 3 million people during peacetime, plus reserve ground, naval and air units in the same proportion per 1 million people. [/B]

check your country for accuracy, as Snu did the research and I took what he gave me plus made adjustments for various colonial possessions. Its possible growth for some of you hasn't been figured in.

SWEET JESUS!

On the new system you need level 5 social to do a command economy national effort? Haaaarsh.

You still didn't answer if my current economy plan will be allowed to go it's course, or if you're pulling the plug now.

you are bribing your population not to revolt while you work them to death...

Yes, you can use your plan until its completed (one time exception)

you are bribing your population not to revolt while you work them to death...

Yes, you can use your plan until its completed (one time exception)

Good thing I got my thing in before this O_o.


At least now I'll have an almost decent economy, though. I mean, 360 million people and 16 points per year is insane. At least 30-ish points is able to provide some services.

mine is wrong, in 1937 i had that, since then i finished my factory and made 2 more shipping units, brining my grand total in 1938(year it says at the top) to be 26 industrial index and 9 shipping.

Just for the record, did Facist governments have command or market economies? Like Nazi Germany, Italy, Nationalist Spain, etc?

They were privatized, but essentially command economies, since the state's needs were prioritized above all else.

Oh, and for my own record,

Germany, Ukraine, Livonia, Finland = Market Economies
Russia, Poland, Transcaucasia, Turkestan = Command Economies

In none of the Republics are there "pure" market or command economies, but rather they represent leanings.

Just for the record, did Facist governments have command or market economies? Like Nazi Germany, Italy, Nationalist Spain, etc?

market as they actually contracted with companies for aircraft, tanks etc. The State also gave them deals for workers (supplied slave labor and guards), and remember, Krupp was tried at Nuremburg too.

market as they actually contracted with companies for aircraft, tanks etc
I can see the only way we'll resolve this is in the battle-dome.

They were more about mobilization of labor than deficit spending.

France is currrently a market economy. ALthough many public services are provided by the governemnt, the vast majority of goods and work are provided by private companies. The government also contracts arms comapnies for it's weapons.

And out of curiousity, do semi-automatic rifles have any effects in game terms?

market as they actually contracted with companies for aircraft, tanks etc. The State also gave them deals for workers (supplied slave labor and guards), and remember, Krupp was tried at Nuremburg too.

So my current government would be Market? I think they would, since they're pretty anti-communist.

Also, it appears that Market economies have a big advantage over the Command economies. In fact, the only place the command economies are better is Wartime spending, and there they have no growth, only x3.5 points.

Just for the record, at the end of my national effort, I'll have 26 points + 4 commerce.

And out of curiousity, do semi-automatic rifles have any effects in game terms?

its assumed that tech level 6 infantry have them while tech level 5 infantry don't

Fascism actually brought about the inefficiencies of both systems, but as the industrialists essentially became part of the system, its easier to consider them market economies where labor has few rights and the state has a rather nasty habit of throwing strikers into labor camps or making them dissappear.

So yes India, you are a market economy for now.

Also, it appears that Market economies have a big advantage over the Command economies. In fact, the only place the command economies are better is Wartime spending, and there they have no growth, only x3.5 points.

notice that real life China and Russia and all of Eastern Europe switched over to Market economies? There is a reason....

its assumed that tech level 6 infantry have them while tech level 5 infantry don't

Fascism actually brought about the inefficiencies of both systems, but as the industrialists essentially became part of the system, its easier to consider them market economies where labor has few rights and the state has a rather nasty habit of throwing strikers into labor camps or making them dissappear.

So yes India, you are a market economy for now.

It seems the only advantage that facism had/has was that facist countries usually were pretty strong on the military front. Of course, they eventually lost, since when you have a bunch of democracies or communist nations beating you down, you're kinda screwed.

Fascism actually brought about the inefficiencies of both systems, but as the industrialists essentially became part of the system, its easier to consider them market economies where labor has few rights and the state has a rather nasty habit of throwing strikers into labor camps or making them dissappear.

So yes India, you are a market economy for now.
I still disagree. Hitler's spending program had a lot more in common with Stalin's than with Reagan's, however much I may them bot - well, all.

I think we'd better confer before anybody decides unilaterally.

I still disagree. Hitler's spending program had a lot more in common with Stalin's than with Reagan's, however much I may them bot - well, all.

I think we'd better confer before anybody decides unilaterally.

I'm more Mussolini facist than Hitler facist.

I'm more Mussolini facist than Hitler facist.
You're a compulsive sex-addict?

You're a compulsive sex-addict?

Not in THAT way :p.

That's not denying what you're saying, but....

;)

With utmost respect Mussollini took an economically and millitarically unprepared Italy to a long war

With utmost respect Mussollini took an economically and millitarically unprepared Italy to a long war

I know, he was kinda stupid joining the war. He shoulda done what Franco did. But Ideaologically, India's closer to him. "Yay for the state; communists are evil" kinda thinking.

Colombia is actually 28 (13 Million x 2 = 26p From growth and such, so maxed plus another 2 from Canal Plus another 2 in 1939 from the enhancement to the canal) And our trade points are actually 34... since we had 30 shipping units a long time ago... I was still working with the idea that 1,000,000 tons of shipping was one point... PLUS I have the airlines as well for quite sometime. So... 28 + 34 XP

Now to redo my points again

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)
Population:13 million
1938 builds: 28 points base (+ 1 from Natural Growth), plus 34 for shipping and airlines, total of 62 points

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). - 5 points basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
1 x Light Bomber = 1p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
3 x Flak Artillery = .75p
2 x Carrier Fighter Units = 2p
1 x Carrier Bomber Units = 1p
3 x Fleet Carrier = 3p (Vincente Sewell, Dario Echandia, Francisco de Paula Santander)
2 x Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
TOTAL: 26p

National Builds: (32p left)
8 Points to Panama Canal effort. (To make it 10/10)
10 Points to MEU Government
5 Points to Immigrant Assistance
1 Point to sponser Youth Sport Programs (Soccer, Rugby, etc)

Mega Projects: (7p left)
Rural Electrification = 1p
Improved Super Highway System between Panama, Colombia, and Venezuela = 2p
Oil Exploration = 4p (Hopefully this will allow me to find more oil!)

I know, he was kinda stupid joining the war. He shoulda done what Franco did. But Ideaologically, India's closer to him. "Yay for the state; communists are evil" kinda thinking.

Well all fascists are, although Hitler is more famous for his hatered of the jews

Well all fascists are, although Hitler is more famous for his hatered of the jews

Well, I don't hate the Jews, thus making me closer to Benny :)

notice that real life China and Russia and all of Eastern Europe switched over to Market economies? There is a reason....

I thought that reason was the downfall of the communist regime....which isn't even socialist which i am not in the fact that we still have corporations but you get the point! NO FAIR....okay i think maybe a little more balencing would be needed, though just enough not to make the game one sided and make everyone just become capitalist little children.

PS: Columbia, you keep forgetting about your production cap :P Electrification will put you way over the max, but then again i think several nations are with it, so how is that handled?

Also also, when will I strike Black Gold? In todays world, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and India combined produce 844,581 barrels of oil today. Now, that isn't alot, but I know there is oil in the subcontinent. Not enough to keep me self sufficent (at least not for very long), but it's enough to significantly reduce the amount of oil I import (by about 1/3 or 1/4 if we use modern consumption).

PS: Columbia, you keep forgetting about your production cap :P Electrification will put you way over the max, but then again i think several nations are with it, so how is that handled?

Right about that... points in excess of the cap are simply not counted. Technically excess production to demand would cause prices to fall and a recession to result, but thats more trouble than I want to deal with at the moment.

Basic intro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_state) to Fascist ideas about the relationship between state and economy. Dirigisme is another to look up as a predecessor to Corporatism, and both are strongly opposed to Laissez-faire ideology and principles.

There are no pure examples of command or market economies in E20. Even Russia has a strong commercial element (our system is based on the NEP, rather than the subsequent Stalinist system), and even the US has strong regulations and social welfare. Therefore we have to judge an economy by what it leans to most, rather than what it is. I consider fascist economies to resemble command economies most, especially in their capacities for capital investment (not great), and their method of of organizing national effort (mobilizing labor and bribing them with social "services" like inalienable employment and subsidized homemaking, rather than going deeply into debt).

We may have to find an arbitrator.

I will accept that as a reasonable explanation.... Fascists economies are now command economies.

By the way India, you have some oil now, just not enough for domestic needs.

I dislike the fact that Rural Electrification doesn't give me the 10 point bonus...

and GB once said that I get the 2 points from the canal added ontop of my max.

I dislike the fact that Rural Electrification doesn't give me the 10 point bonus...

and GB once said that I get the 2 points from the canal added ontop of my max.

yes, the Suez Canal is a special bonus to Egypt and the Panama Canal is a special bonus to Colombia (well technically Panama but Colombia owns it).

On the plus side Artisia, you get some security on the homefront as your rural population reelects you in a landslide. They like running water and light switches and telephones.

I'd also imagine the fact that they have free education, free healthcare, and lots of jobs would get me a fairly secure election rating as well...

*pant, pant*

Jeez that was a lot!

I take it we're considering National Effort for Market to basically be deficit spending? Also, why can only Market go on Total War? Wouldn't Command be better at it?

The Union has 552 + 34 = 586. We maxed out this year, and our population is 276 million. Rural electrification would've given us even more, if we'd had the population to support it.

That's why we should annex all those satellites!

Oh and we should do the White Sea Canal.

Lastly, would extending the Kiel Canal do anything since we're maxed?

Parthini']*pant, pant*

Jeez that was a lot!

I take it we're considering National Effort for Market to basically be deficit spending? Also, why can only Market go on Total War? Wouldn't Command be better at it??

Market economies can borrow money in vast amounts, deficit spend and have a lot more slack then Command economies do.


Parthini']*
Lastly, would extending the Kiel Canal do anything since we're maxed?

Not really, barge traffic is unaffected, as the canal is more a strategic naval canal for moving big warships from the Baltic to North Sea then a civilian traffic canal.

Market economies can borrow money in vast amounts, deficit spend and have a lot more slack then Command economies do.

Can you provide references to support this? I'd rather both systems were allowed it.

Can you provide references to support this? I'd rather both systems were allowed it.

Read the book "Why the Allies Won" and the book "World In Flames" and Keegans book on World War II, and several other sources. Essentially Command economies can gear up quicker to wartime levels, but the market economy has more slack and excess capital that can be redirected to wartime uses in the long haul. For one thing, the Market economy governments can borrow from the future by issueing bonds etc.

The Soviet Economy and the US economy where the two most productive per capita during World War II. But while the Soviet workers were eating half the ration of a US child, the US workers suffered practically not at all from rationing. This is because the US did not actually use its entire economic strength during World War II. It had so much slack that it didn't have to institute serious food rationing for much of the war, and what rationing that existed was more a matter of keeping prices under control then anything else.

The British economy managed to make it through 5 years of war, even when essentially broke, by borrowing.

The Soviet economy, once economic damage is set aside, produced huge numbers of weapons because the US was supplying it with considerable amounts of raw materials, food stuffs, and transportation equipment such as locomotives and trucks (by the hundreds of thousands).

Even so, during the height of the Cold War, the Soviet economy never had the massive slack that the Western economies had to gear up when required. Look at the 1980s US arms build up as another example.

Just to throw in my two cents, the allies wouldn't have won the war in Europe if it weren't for our good Command economy friends in the Soviet Union...

Many of the confusions about inaccuracy in the front page rankings is because I used 1937 data, the latest available.

Incidentally, why on earth does Bolivia get 5 points per turn? That would place them at their productivity cap, making Bolivia more industrialized than, say, Japan.

I'm back.

Here's my 1938 build.


Income:

92 points from factories (National Effort = 184 points)
14 from commerce (12 merchant marine, 1 national airline, and 1 international airline)
7 from France
2 from Korea
30 from Russia

Expeditures:

Social Services:

Level I Social Services:

30 points from Russia for 300 million Chinese
30 points from China for 300 million Chinese

(Combine the resources from both sources to create a Level II Social Service for 300 million Chinese worth 60 points)

Level II Social Services:

44 Chinese points for 220 million Chinese.
2 Korean aid points for 10 million Chinese.

Total Social Services Experditures (for overall Level II social services for all Chinese):

74 points from China
2 points from Korea
30 points from Russia
106 points total.

Military Maintainence:

15 points.

Rebuilding:

24 points for 4 damaged "factories" to be completed by start of 1939. This will bring China to 100 points total during peace-time starting in 1939.

Rural Electrification:

53 points for 530 million people.

Build New Units:

39 points for 13 Merchant Marine.

Total Expeditures:

196 Chinese points
7 French points
2 Korean points
30 Russian points


---------------------------------------

I think this is right so far.

Many of the confusions about inaccuracy in the front page rankings is because I used 1937 data, the latest available.

Incidentally, why on earth does Bolivia get 5 points per turn? That would place them at their productivity cap, making Bolivia more industrialized than, say, Japan.

extraction industries mainly, but I will look at it again. Some nations with oil will also have more production value than the usual as well.

Just to throw in my two cents, the allies wouldn't have won the war in Europe if it weren't for our good Command economy friends in the Soviet Union...

while true, it has more to do with Soviet battlefield performance than Soviet overall production capability. After the invasion, the Soviets and the Germans were essentially even in capabilities (once actual damage to the Soviet economy is factored in), but as the Soviets had only one front to deal with, they could specialize, while the Germans, British and Americans had multiple fronts and situations to build for.

extraction industries mainly, but I will look at it again. Some nations with oil will also have more production value than the usual as well.

Just wondering how much oil China has access or possesses at this point in time. According to this website, China does possess oil reserves on-land.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/china.html#oil

ooc
Build points provided by merchant marine and airlines do not count against the population limit for build points (the advantages of trade). However, no more than 30 build points can be earned that way. (there is a limit to how much the international economy will support after all).

Question. This is on the first (updated) page yet I noticed America and the Union have 34 points from their merchant marine. And was this under the old system too? Cause now I have to re-haul my builds for '38.

30 points for shipping plus 2 points each for national and international airlines

Question. This is on the first (updated) page yet I noticed America and the Union have 34 points from their merchant marine. And was this under the old system too? Cause now I have to re-haul my builds for '38.
30 points from our merchant marines
2 points from our domestic airlines (2 twin-engine transports)
2 points from our international airlines (2 four-engine transports)

Airlines are 2 points for domestic, 2 points for international. Since you already have 30 points from shipping, don't build 25 shipping units-build airlines.

As for giving me money, that was a joke. I've gotten tired of just saying "don't have a surplus" over and over to many people. However, if you do want to give me money no strings attached, I won't say no.

Edit: vas and galveston beat me to it. And I doubleposted. Not a good sign.

OOC: According to Galveston Bay, I apparently have twenty base points, not ten. This revised build reflects that.

Population: 10,027,100
Income: 28 points (20 base, 8 commerce)
Foreign Aid: N/A

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-2.5 points
Level III Social Services-3 points

Government Projects
Rural Electrification-1 point
1x HQ Unit-6 points
4x Shipping Unit-12 points
1x National Airline-3 points

Points Spent: 27.5
Surplus: .5

Next Year Income: 34 (22 base (10% increase), 12 commerce)

[*I didn't buy a pilot unit for the airline because I already have a reserve pilot unit in my airforce; I'm just going to use that]

Industrialization projects are designed to increase your domestic production. For every 24 points spent, you may increase your domestic economy by 1 point a year. Takes one year to accomplish.

So is this the same idea as factories or is it something else?

Sorry for all the questions......

Check with Galveston. When I did the updated rankings, I assumed that you were on Cut Government Spending, because the front page said 20. I assume that he's simply using that figure.

So is this the same idea as factories or is it something else?

Sorry for all the questions......
A cosmetic change has occurred where there are no "factories" as such, but rather an industrial index. "Projects" are ways of increasing your industrial index (i.e., production points). As yet, there's no mechanism enforcing or rewarding detailed descriptions of those projects, but it's encouraged.

A cosmetic change has occurred where there are no "factories" as such, but rather an industrial index. "Projects" are ways of increasing your industrial index (i.e., production points). As yet, there's no mechanism enforcing or rewarding detailed descriptions of those projects, but it's encouraged.

Any suggestions?

Any suggestions?
I don't know, harbor improvements? Investment incentives? A telecommunications (telegraph and telephone) network?

Me, I'd just invest in my industrial index, and let other people figure out what the hell it represents. I'm a history nazi, not a megaprojects freak.

Also, those "leftover points" of yours could go to covert activities in Indonesia or Siam, for instance, instead of to Argentina.

The Soviet Economy and the US economy where the two most productive per capita during World War II. But while the Soviet workers were eating half the ration of a US child, the US workers suffered practically not at all from rationing. This is because the US did not actually use its entire economic strength during World War II. It had so much slack that it didn't have to institute serious food rationing for much of the war, and what rationing that existed was more a matter of keeping prices under control then anything else.


Ach, macht Nicht.

Nearly half our economy is market-based anyway, and most of the rest is pretty close (kinda corporatist, actually, but in a Marxist way . . .).

Besides, it's not production that's going to end the Next War . . .

Just wondering how much oil China has access or possesses at this point in time. According to this website, China does possess oil reserves on-land.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/china.html#oil

moderately sure that real exploration and production didn't begin until the 1960s, so look up when oil production began instead. I am aware that China has substantial oil and gas reserves, I used it in a 1st Negative arguement in High School debate in 1979

moderately sure that real exploration and production didn't begin until the 1960s, so look up when oil production began instead. I am aware that China has substantial oil and gas reserves, I used it in a 1st Negative arguement in High School debate in 1979

Will do.

However, with my proposed Hydroelectric Dam project, that can and will cut down on China's oil requirements, which should allow China's oil production to stay abreast of oil consumption. The mass transit projects later on will also help as China will not need as many automobiles (which is one massive drain on oil reserves- look at RL USA).

Anyways, I'll do some research into Chinese oil in 1940's tomorrow (Friday). However, I'm curious- seeing that China is more modernized in this timeline, would it be possible for these RL 1960's oil exploration and drilling to occur in the 1940's or 1950's in our timeline?

Will do.

However, with my proposed Hydroelectric Dam project, that can and will cut down on China's oil requirements, which should allow China's oil production to stay abreast of oil consumption. The mass transit projects later on will also help as China will not need as many automobiles (which is one massive drain on oil reserves- look at RL USA).

Anyways, I'll do some research into Chinese oil in 1940's tomorrow (Friday). However, I'm curious- seeing that China is more modernized in this timeline, would it be possible for these RL 1960's oil exploration and drilling to occur in the 1940's or 1950's in our timeline?

its likely, depends on what happens in the Middle East and for how long, and how stable things are in China. However, offshore drilling is a tech level 7 technology, and a lot of those reserves you will notice are either offshore or in Mongolia / Manchuria and Sinkiaing

Am I still the only country to provide level 5 social services?

(Plus I dropped a bunch of points in youth sport leagues, and immigrant services)

So... is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

first page now finished, Snu and Vas please check for edits, and the rest check to make sure your country is where it is supposed to be

Sorry, but Rumania should be 21+7 for commerce.

USA 1938
US Population (1935) 145 million, Representative Democracy, Market Economy
288 points base income (includes growth and rural electrification and adjusted growth from previous years incorrectly determined)
3 points debt repayment from Canada
9 points income from the Philippines and Oceania
34 points from commerce

Total points 334 points

Military maintenance 99 points
National Safety net (level 5 spending)(unemployment insurance, food stamps, junior college system) 70 points
National Safety net for Philippines (level 2 spending) 2 points
10 points to Japan (represents US oil and steel exports to Japan)
10 points to Central America (NPC nations, for social service assistance)
191 total points

Under construction (already paid for)
2 Montana class battleships (Montana, Texas, available January 1937)
Panama Canal expansion (year 3 of 4)(opens January 1940) +10% bonus to Gran Colombia economy
Saint Lawrence Seaway project (year 3 of 4) (opens April 1940) + 3 points to Canadian economy , + 1 point to US economy, Great Lakes cities become seaports.
Intercoastal Waterway project (year 3 of 4)(opens April 1940)+10% bonus to US economy (worth 22 points)
5 Essex class carriers (year 2 of 2)(available January 1939)

143 New Construction points available
Television guided bombs and missiles research 9 points (very secret)(4 points remains)
Atomic energy research (powerplant applications) 2 points (very secret)(16 points remain)
Multi stage rocket research 3 points (17 more points needed)
3 Iowa class battleships (year 2 of 2.5) 18 points (18 more points needed)
1 Iowa class battleship (year 1 of 2.5) 12 points (paid for)
4 improved Essex class carriers (Year 1 of 1) 32 points)
3 Midway class carriers (Year 1 of 3) 36 points (12 points each)
2 points Foreign Humanitarian aid to the MEU
12 points aid to Algeria (infrastructure upgrade for oil production)
2 points aid to Korea (to spend as needed)
4 points aid to USEA (to spend as needed)
11 points to Australia so it can start an international and national airline


1938 US Military
US Navy
Carrier Aviation (maintenance 13 points including pilots)
9 tech level 6 fleet carriers: Lexington, Saratoga, Enterprise, Yorktown, Wasp, Hornet, Ranger, Bon Homme Richard, Essex, (all are 100 aircraft, protection 3, speed 6, range 6, Essex class has a protection of 4) 5 Corsairs, 2 Dauntless, 2 Avenger, 9 pilots
2 Corsairs, 5 Avenger torpedo bombers (Navy reserve) 7 Navy reserve carrier pilots

Surface force and other ships (maintenance 21 points)
2 tech level 6 Fast super battleships (Montana, Texas) (firepower 6, protection 12, speed 5, range 6)
6 tech level 6 Fast battleships: North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota, Alabama, South Dakota, Indiana, (firepower 5, protection 6, speed 5, range 6)
3 tech 6(modernized) (16 inch) Battleships: Colorado, Maryland, West Virginia (firepower 5, protection 6, speed 3, range 5)

Heavy cruisers
15 tech level 6 Heavy cruisers (all are firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6)
Chester, Pensacola, Salt Lake City, Houston, Northhampton, Chicago, Augusta, Quincy, Portland, Astoria, Tuscaloosa, Vincennes, Indianapolis, Newport News, Salem, Vincennes, Wichita, Baltimore

Light cruisers
6 Tech level 6 (modernized) Omaha class (firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6), Luzon, Mindanao, Paney, Cebu, Samar, Guam
5 tech level 6 Brooklyn class (firepower 1, protection 1, speed 7, range 6) Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Savannah, Nashville, Boise

Antiaircraft cruisers
12 tech level 6 Atlanta class (firepower 1, protection 1, speed 7, range 6), Atlanta, Juneau, San Pedro, San Juan, San Diego, San Antonio, San Pedro, Duluth, Galveston, Los Angeles, Hampton, Biloxi,

Destroyers
150 tech level 6 destroyer escorts, (15 light ships), 120 tech level 6 destroyers (8 light ships)

Submarines
80 tech level 6 submarines (8 submarine units)

Laid up in reserve (all on East Coast)
5 tech 6 (modernized)(14 inch) battleships Tennessee, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Pennsylvania ( firepower 4, protection 6, speed 3, and range 5)
4 tech level 6 (modernized) light carriers:, Theodore Roosevelt, William McKinley,
George Washington, Abraham Lincoln (4 x 55 aircraft, protection 1, speed 5, range 5, 4 x 55 aircraft, protection 1, speed 6, range 6)
9 Tech level 6 (modernized) Omaha class (firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6) Omaha, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Marblehead, Trenton, Detroit, Concord, Richmond, Memphis
2 amphibious fleets

Transport and shipping
2 amphibious fleets
2 transport units
3 liner units (released back to civilian service)
33 shipping units (15 million tons) commercial fleet, (includes some excess shipping to commerce limit)

US Landbased Naval Aviation (maintenance 18.25 points)
3 PBY, 3 B24 6 pilots plus 3 B24 (navy reserve), 3 pilots (navy reserve)

Marine Corps (maintenance 1 point)
1 Amphibious corps

US Army Air Force (includes reserves) ( 17 maintenance points including pilots)
2 heavy bomber unit (B17F), 1 heavy air transport unit (C54), 1 Air transport unit (DC3), 2 fighter units (P38), 4 fighter units (P47), 4 bomber units (2 B25, 2 B26), 16 pilots (2 in reserve)

US Air National Guard and Army Air Force Reserve (16 points including pilots)
2 heavy bomber units (B17F) 5 bomber units (3 B25, 2 B26), 5 fighter units (P47), 14 pilots

Regular Army (6.5 points)
4 mechanized corps (2 divisions each), 2 armored corps (2 divisions each), 2 amphibious corps (2 divisions each) 1 mountain corps (2 divisions), 1 airborne infantry corps (2 divisions) 3 motorized field artillery units, 3 coast artillery units, 3 flak units

National Guard and Reserve (15 points)
4 headquarters units, 12 mechanized corps (2 divisions each), 5 motorized corps (2 divisions each), 1 garrison unit (Manila), 3 field artillery units, 2 coast defense units (Manila, Pearl Harbor) 14 flak units (Pearl Harbor, Manila, 6 each coast), 4 fortifications (Truk, Manila, Panama, Oahu)

also 1 national airline, 1 international airline, plus 2 pilots (remain unmobilized at this time, but subject to mobilization to the Army if needed)

Total Maintenance 99 points

And the Union should still be, as I have said three times, 552 + 34. I take pride in that, after all.

when did you do rural electrification? or has that been included? Remember, its TWO years (which is how long it took me)

when did you do rural electrification? or has that been included? Remember, its TWO years (which is how long it took me)
I started when you did.

I started when you did.

ok, couldn't remember, and its a lot of posts to dig through at this point. By the way, feel free to update populations (and some are missing by the way) when you have a chance. Please.

I'll have them by the end of the week, except for maybe Africa, which I would really rather avoid - it's literally more trouble than the rest of the world combined, and it's not like anybody was doing anything there. Goddamn colonialists.

Speaking of which, France is actually in the Pact, now, not just pro Pact. The MEU is pro Pact, and hasn't been the Ottoman Empire for awhile, now. Manchuria is also in the Pact.

And is Ireland really in the LTA? I thought they were neutral in RL.

Oh. And thanks.

28 + 34 points

I'll have them by the end of the week, except for maybe Africa, which I would really rather avoid - it's literally more trouble than the rest of the world combined, and it's not like anybody was doing anything there. Goddamn colonialists.

Speaking of which, France is actually in the Pact, now, not just pro Pact. The MEU is pro Pact, and hasn't been the Ottoman Empire for awhile, now. Manchuria is also in the Pact.

And is Ireland really in the LTA? I thought they were neutral in RL.

Oh. And thanks.

A more friendly to the LTA Ireland in this timeline because the US is in it, and American Irish have a lot of financial clout in Ireland. Also no War of Irish Independence was required.

I will fix France, Manchuria and MEU.

A more friendly to the LTA Ireland in this timeline because the US is in it, and American Irish have a lot of financial clout in Ireland. Also no War of Irish Independence was required.

I will fix France, Manchuria and MEU.
Good points. I'll buy it.

1938 Economies (at peacetime spending levels)

China 76+14 commerce


Actually it should be 92 points in 1938, then 100 points in 1939 after all the factories and damage from Japan's invasion has been repaired by the start of 1939.

So basically...

1938 = 92 points industry and 16 points commerce (12 merchant marine at 1 point each, and 1 international airline at 2 points and 1 national airline at 2 points unless I'm mistaken)

4 "factories" to repair for 24 points.

1939 = 100 points industry and 29 points commerce (25 merchant marine at 1 point each, and 4 points from airlines- 2 points from international and 2 from national)

All economic damage repaired and China is back at 100% "health".

--------------------------

I hadn't realized airlines = 2 points each now. :confused: Or are they still 1 point each? Just wondering as I've seen a few recent builds with incomes of 2 per airline?

Actually it should be 92 points in 1938, then 100 points in 1939 after all the factories and damage from Japan's invasion has been repaired by the start of 1939.

So basically...

1938 = 92 points industry and 16 points commerce (12 merchant marine at 1 point each, and 1 international airline at 2 points and 1 national airline at 2 points unless I'm mistaken)

4 "factories" to repair for 24 points.

1939 = 100 points industry and 29 points commerce (25 merchant marine at 1 point each, and 4 points from airlines- 2 points from international and 2 from national)

All economic damage repaired and China is back at 100% "health".

--------------------------

I hadn't realized airlines = 2 points each now. :confused: Or are they still 1 point each? Just wondering as I've seen a few recent builds with incomes of 2 per airline?

yes, all commerce points were doubled remember? Points are for the beginning of 1938, not the end of it, so your repairs wont be finished until the end of 1939

USEA 1939 build
Population: 21.7 Million
Representative Democracy, Market Economy

25 points ( 10 from factories in Cam Ranh, Saigon, Hanoi, Phnom Penh and Vientiane + 12 from 6,00,000 tons of shipping + 3 points Aid from USA)

Domestic:

Level IV social spending 10 points

Expansion of railway network 12 points

1x shipping unit (500,000 tons) [1.5 points to be completed next year]

Military:

Military Maintenace:
2x Infantry corps free
3x Garrison corps free
1x Motorized .25 points
1x fighter unit .5 points
1x Marine unit .5 points
1x Light ship unit .25 points

Total = 1.5 points


I think thats acceptable, the points for the twin engineed bomber and pilot paid for this year and last are going to LR who is actually making them for me.
Oh and USEA is now 10 + 12 points

yes, all commerce points were doubled remember? Points are for the beginning of 1938, not the end of it, so your repairs wont be finished until the end of 1939

I thought I put 24 point repairs for my build for 1938, so these repairs take 1 year, so all my factories should be fixed for "fiscal year" 1939. Unless factory / induistry repairs now take 2 years to complete? :confused:

I just realized something quite important.

I believe the cost for improving your economic index by just one point is somewhat too high. I'll explain,

Suppose there is a small and a large nation.

The year is 1940.

Small nation (X) has an economic index of 10, and has 30 million people.

Large nation (Y) has an economic index of 100, and has 400 million people.

Nation X spends 6 points on Level II social services for 30 million people, which leaves it with just 4 points to spend. Assume Nation X has military units that cost 2 maintainence points a turn. That leaves Nation X with just 2 points to use.

Nation X will need 12 years just to build 1 economic index "improvement" boosting it to an economic index of 11 by 1952. Then 3 points a turn, which means another "improvement" in 8 years. Thats 1960. The nation will probably reach its maximum of 60 economic index (2 points per million) or, god forbid, a maximum of 120 economic index (Tech Level 7, with 4 points per million people) in 100 or 200 years at this rate.

It isn't any better for Nation Y.

Nation Y spends 80 points on Level II social services, and 10 points on military maintainence. That leaves Nation Y with 10 points to spend, Nation Y can build 1 economic index improvement every 3 years. Then eventually 1 per year. At this rate, it will take Nation Y 50 - 75 years before it can even afford Level III social services in addition to military maintainence, AND continue expanding its economy.

Still, the maximum industry for Nation Y would be 800 points at Tech Level 6, and 1600 points at Tech Level 7. At this rate, it'll take 100 - 300 years, if not more, to reach maximum. 2100 AD Earth or Star Trek Era Earth, anyone?

---------------------------------

See what I mean?

In another perpsective... it will take 24 years for a single economic index improvement to pay itself off (24 years at 1 point annually).

Yet another perpsective... to boost a nation's economic index by 10 would cost 240 points total.

Not to mention all the population growths in the world. By 1950, small nations may gain 5 - 10 million more people, and others may gain 20 - 50 million more. That means more social service expenses, which means much less capital to improve one's economy.

Take nation X (the 30 million population one). By 1950, it would be 35 million people, which means 8 points would be needed for social services, and 2 points for military maintainence. Thats expense of 10 points- exactly the amount of points that Nation X has for income. This means Nation X's first economic index improvement will *never* be completed, unless it cuts back on social services and reverts to Level I instead of keeping Level II going.

Then by the time Nation X finishes its first economic index improvement (if ever) for 1 extra point a turn, it'll probably be 1960, which means more population (40 - 45 million), which means Nation X cannot sustain Level II social services. It'd cost the nation 10 to 12 points for social services, plus the 2 for military.

The same can be said for the large Nation Y.

-----------------------------

Therefore, I believe that the economic improvement should be tweaked somewhat. Perhaps keep the cost to 24 points, but instead of increasing the economic index by just 1 point, change it to an increase of 2 or 3 points.

I believe a 2 or 3 points boost per "improvement" is best as it would effectively un-paralyze economic development, especially for small nations that only has a net income of 1 - 2 points annually after all expenses are paid for (nations such as African nations, Korea, USEA, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc.), or nations that cannot develop their own economies due to the crushing demands of maintaining social services. These nations would only have a net income of 1 - 15 points a turn, after social services and military maintainence are all factored in even if these nations have an overall income of 50+ points.

I just wanted to speak my mind on this matter. Basically, nations can't develop their own economies effectively if they have to spend 24 points for just 1 point increase in their economies. They might as well never invest "points" in economic improvement ever again.

The more I think about this whole thing as wqll as the post above this one concerning economic improvement, the more I notice something wrong- really wrong- something simply doesn't jive. Therefore I must ask another important question, and one that must be answered.

Here goes...

Year 1926, end of Great War II

USA had roughly 40 points a turn (or 240 points annually as 6 turns = 1 year) at wartime.

USA had 80 points annually at peacetime levels. (1/3 of 240 wartime points)

Union had roughly 35 points a turn (or 210 points annually) at wartime.

Union had 70 points annually at peacetime levels (1/3 of 240 wartime points)


Year 1927:

Everyone's points got doubled.

USA went from 80 to 160.
Union went from 70 to 140.


Year 1936 - 1938:

USA has 241 industry points, 9 colonial points, and 34 commerce points (284 points)

Union has 552 industry and 34 commerce (586 points).


---------------------

How did the Union gain 446 points in just 10 - 12 years? How did it acquire an economy double that of the USA's economy?

Something's wrong with this picture here. The USA gains 81 industry points in 10 - 12 years, in addition to 9 colonial and 34 commerce points, while the Union increased its industry and economy by a factor of roughly 4.2 (140 points to 586 points). The Union gained nearly 4 times as many economic points as the USA did in just 10 - 12 years (446 points gained as opposed to 124)

Makes you really wonder, doesn't it? Especially that the Union spent quite a bit of points on social services and military maintainence.

If the Union can do this god-like quadruple jump in economy in just a decade.... (shakes head)

Algeria 10+1 commerce

Honestly I have lost track due to the constant changing of rules

If the Union can do this god-like quadruple jump in economy in just a decade.... (shakes head)
What are you implying, exactly? Russia and Germany united, you fool. That's how we managed the "god-like quadruple jump."

That and the fact that, after five years of national effort, we cut spending for two, as by that point our economy was large enough to develop more quickly on its own than by planning - this was before the distinction between market and command economies, after all, but I still just called it "decentralized conciliar market socialism," as opposed to reduced spending.

It's because you constantly forget I'm not playing just Russia.

What are you implying, exactly? Russia and Germany united, you fool. That's how we managed the "god-like quadruple jump."

That and the fact that, after five years of national effort, we cut spending for two, as by that point our economy was large enough to develop more quickly on its own than by planning - this was before the distinction between market and command economies, after all, but I still just called it "decentralized conciliar market socialism," as opposed to reduced spending.

It's because you constantly forget I'm not playing just Russia.

I didn't say Russia made all this industry by itself. I specifically said the Union, which means Russia + Germany.

Anyways, I sure could use a quadruple of China's economy between 1938 and 1950- get China 400 points of industry. Then I can afford my social services and maintain a decent military just like the Union.

Then you're forgetting that with Germany and Russia combined, we already had over a hundred points at peacetime levels, which was doubled by subsequent reforms to the point system.

Our growth wasn't fourfold - we did a little more doubling.

And yes, it was a great achievement.

Then you're forgetting that with Germany and Russia combined, we already had over a hundred points at peacetime levels, which was doubled by subsequent reforms to the point system.

Our growth wasn't fourfold - we did a little more doubling.

And yes, it was a great achievement.

Hmm...

I do remember that Russia had something like 17 points a turn during Great War 2, and Germany had 18 or so.

Then peacetime = 1/3 of these points, which means Russia and Germany would have got 6 points each (for total of 12). Then 12 x 6 turns = 72.

So you'd have had 72 points during peacetime- then had 144 or so after GB doubled everyone's points.

-------------------------

Anyways, I figure I'll never build an "economic improvement" ever again because they're far too expensive. It'll take 24 years for just one improvement to pay off for itself.

So I figure, to hell with it, and rely on natural growth for the next 100 years to reach the Union's economic strength.

Hmm...

I do remember that Russia had something like 17 points a turn during Great War 2, and Germany had 18 or so.

Then peacetime = 1/3 of these points, which means Russia and Germany would have got 6 points each (for total of 12). Then 12 x 6 turns = 72.

So you'd have had 72 points during peacetime- then had 144 or so after GB doubled everyone's points.

-------------------------

Anyways, I figure I'll never build an "economic improvement" ever again because they're far too expensive. It'll take 24 years for just one improvement to pay off for itself.

So I figure, to hell with it, and rely on natural growth for the next 100 years to reach the Union's economic strength.
Why are you even talking about things you have no knowledge of? Have you forgotten also, the industry we stripped from everywhere we retreated from? Of course you have. You probably never noticed.

Why are you even talking about things you have no knowledge of? Have you forgotten also, the industry we stripped from everywhere we retreated from? Of course you have. You probably never noticed.

Oh well.

I will surpass the Union someday.

Why is there a 6.5 tech level? I mean, do 6.5-ers have any great benefits? Or is it just to say "Well, they aren't exactly tech level 7, but the day the USA is as advanced as India it will be a cold day in hell"?

Oh well.

I will surpass the Union someday.

So will I. Towards the end of the century, you all shall fear Asia! ph33r us!

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!!

Why is there a 6.5 tech level? I mean, do 6.5-ers have any great benefits? Or is it just to say "Well, they aren't exactly tech level 7, but the day the USA is as advanced as India it will be a cold day in hell"?

because there was a tech level 4.5, and a 5.5 at one time as well, it marks nations who are approaching the next tech level

So will I. Towards the end of the century, you all shall fear Asia! ph33r us!

MWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA!!

Heh.

We two will dominate, eventually. Perhaps a Super-Asian Combine of Sino-India or something. (evil laughter)

Heh.

We two will dominate, eventually. Perhaps a Super-Asian Combine of Sino-India or something. (evil laughter)

[Magic ball] I see a major war that will cover all of Asia from the Urals to the bay of Tonkin. I see the world consumed in flame, and the victor will be... USEA! [/Magic ball]

Be funny if it did happen though.

New British economy stuff (1938), going by figures from the front page.

Population: UK: 47m (1938) Empire: 60m, Representative Democracy, Market Economy.

a standard economy, 4% growth,

75 British base points (75/94 capacity, 80%)
41 Empire base points (41/120 capacity, 34%)
4 from airlines
30 from shipping
8 from Argentina in loan repayments
3 from UK growth (@4%)
2 from Empire growth (@4%)
TOTAL = 163 points.

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

Total: 50 points

MILITARY EXPANSION

1 tech level 6.5 heavy fleet carrier 12 points
1 mechanised corps 4 points

Plus pre-paid construction:
4 Tech 6 Battleships attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (16" guns) 2 in 1938 1 in 1939 1 in 1940 (Similar to Temeraire/Lion Class), to be known as HMS Lion, Temeraire, Conqueror and Thunder
1 Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, (18" guns), ready 1941 (No relevant class) To be known as HMS Vanguard

total: 16 points

ROUTINE DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 23.5 points on level IV welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

ROUTINE EMPIRE DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

3 points per 10 million (EMPIRE)= 18.5 points on level III welfare

EXCEPTIONAL DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

Rural Electrification (@1 point per 10 million) = 5 points

EXCEPTIONAL EMPIRE OUTLAYS

12 points to widen Suez Canal to accept Super Battleships and Supertankers
9 points to invest in Oil Infrastructure in Nigeria (1/2 years complete)

total: 21 points

RESEARCH

Anglo-American Nuclear Research (3 points)
The Anglo-American jet engine which has already been invested in (Already paid for)

Total: 3 points

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AID

26 points to India

Total: 26 points


TOTAL=163 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

Does anyone know what 1 point roughly equals in USD?

Oh yeah, and since I've been forced to calculate out population growth in detail, I should let you guys know that my population will probably end higher than I was anticipating, thus giving me even more points, of course.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/E20SovietUnion.gif

THE UNION PWNS ALL. ALL HAIL THE UNION.

The Chin-India Combine shall conquer all. :)

New Japanese Builds for 1938
National Effort (Last Year)
62(x2) + 30 Shipping Units + 2 Points (3% Growth 2x for NE) = 156

Military Maintenance: 49.5 Points
Domestic Services = 18 Points
2 National Airlines = 10
2 International Airlines = 12
Aid to Siam = 7.5 Points
Investment in Japan = 48 (+2 Points to Base Points next year)
2 Marine Corps = 8 Points
Aid to Rebels in Dutch East Indies = 5 Points

Total: 150 Points Spent

Hey GB Siam has asked me to construct a railway in their country fo them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/th-mapRR.png
This is the proposed route, how much would it cost to build?

Hey GB Siam has asked me to construct a railway in their country fo them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/th-mapRR.png
This is the proposed route, how much would it cost to build?

12 points and it will take 2 years... really nasty jungle and mountains to deal with. The US is supplying 3 points of aid to you this year, you could use it to help with that.

Alright then, Mr. Expert. What's the Thai income for 1938? Can they possibly afford to pay it back?

Alright then, Mr. Expert. What's the Thai income for 1938? Can they possibly afford to pay it back?

probably not... ever see the Bridge over the River Kwai? This is the terrain and conditions we are discussing. Historically, the Japanese built one from Rangoon to Bangkok, and conditions and brutality killed thousands of Allied POWs and tens of thousands of Thai and Burmese laborers. Figuring money instead of blood, that raises the price from a few points to 12. The US is providing Vietnam with 3 points of aid, which it will cheerfully set aside for the project as a gift if the USAE is ok with that.

Question!

If you can only get a max of 30 points from commerce, how come I see nations with 34 points from it?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10213436&postcount=1171

probably not... ever see the Bridge over the River Kwai? This is the terrain and conditions we are discussing. Historically, the Japanese built one from Rangoon to Bangkok, and conditions and brutality killed thousands of Allied POWs and tens of thousands of Thai and Burmese laborers. Figuring money instead of blood, that raises the price from a few points to 12. The US is providing Vietnam with 3 points of aid, which it will cheerfully set aside for the project as a gift if the USAE is ok with that.

The USEA has allocated all its points for the coming year but the year after (1940) I could probably pay for the whole thing in one go and have the Thais pay me back for it over the next few decades. Which shouldn't be hard since they'll probably get an economic boost from it?

Question!

If you can only get a max of 30 points from commerce, how come I see nations with 34 points from it?

30 points from sea shipping.

4 points from air shipping (1 national, 1 international)

30 points from sea shipping.

4 points from air shipping (1 national, 1 international)

OOooooh. I see now.

It seems the only commerical method of transporting things that isn't represented is railroads. Which is all I have :(.

I'm feeling somewhat frustrated as I just finished another round of calculations.

I won't be able to build anything or do anything until 1960, literally, assuming I go straight for Level III social spending.

Here's how its going to happen....

China's income in 1940:

100 industry
34 commerce (probably)
10 from rural electrification

Total: 144 points.

Expeditures:

106 points for Social Services (Level II)
14 points for military maintainence
24 points towards Public Transportation Megaproject (to help accelerate tech catch up with these Tech Level 6.5 nations)

Total: 144 points.

Then assuming I convert to Market Economy right away in 1940, which means 3% growth annually. That should be about 4 new industry points for 1941. That'd be the equalivent of building 96 points worth of Economic Improvement (24 points for 1 point boost which is ridiclious IMHO).

So I would be getting roughly 4 more points every year. That means I need 10 years (Year 1950) to gain 40 economic points, so that China can do Level III social spending and also pay military maintainence (total for both together should be around 175 points or so and have roughly 10 points left over for builds or new military or whatever).

Then another 40 points by 1960.

At this rate, I won't be able to reach 500 points until the year 2050.

----------------------------------

This is silly, really.

If the Union could go from around 150 points to 600 points in just 12 years, then why does China need 100 years to go from 100 points to 500? If anything, China should be able to reach 500 points by 1960 (or something like that), not by 2050 AD or later.

China will not be the only one suffering from the extreme cost of "Economy Improvement by 1 Point per Year for Cost of 24 Points". Look at poor, poor India- it only has 16 economic points! Also what about all these small nations like Colombia, Sweden, Afghanistan, MEU, etc. that have a low net income- they won't be able to realize their industrial potential as their population keeps growing.

Nations with a net income of only 1 - 5 points would need 100 years literally to gain 5 - 10 more economic points.

The only alternative is to beg and whine for foreign aid from the Pact or the LTA. Then the "victim" nation is subject to Pact or LTA pulling strings and blackmail- "Do what I say, or I will cut off all economic aid". There'll be no more true independence of nations. :(

---------------------------

What all this comes down to....

Building economic improvements is not worth it anymore. You guys might as well never use your points to build economy because natural growth would do it for "free".

GB might as well remove that option altogether, or modify it to the old system where 1 economic improvement equals 2 points per year, or push it to maybe 3 points per year for 1 economic improvement. Only then, would the economic investment be a viable and worthwhile option.

So therefore, I apologize to Vas for going off on his Union super-economy. I was kind of upset that for what Vas did with the Union, it will take me 100 or more years to do, even though China is just shy of the Union's original income in 1927 (China will have 144 points income in 1940, whereas the Union had 140 - 150 points income in 1927). So you can understand why I got frustrated.

I'm feeling somewhat frustrated as I just finished another round of calculations.

I won't be able to build anything or do anything until 1960, literally, assuming I go straight for Level III social spending.

Here's how its going to happen....

China's income in 1940:

100 industry
34 commerce (probably)
10 from rural electrification

Total: 144 points.

Expeditures:

106 points for Social Services (Level II)
14 points for military maintainence
24 points towards Public Transportation Megaproject (to help accelerate tech catch up with these Tech Level 6.5 nations)

Total: 144 points.

Then assuming I convert to Market Economy right away in 1940, which means 3% growth annually. That should be about 4 new industry points for 1941. That'd be the equalivent of building 96 points worth of Economic Improvement (24 points for 1 point boost which is ridiclious IMHO).

So I would be getting roughly 4 more points every year. That means I need 10 years (Year 1950) to gain 40 economic points, so that China can do Level III social spending and also pay military maintainence (total for both together should be around 175 points or so and have roughly 10 points left over for builds or new military or whatever).

Then another 40 points by 1960.

At this rate, I won't be able to reach 500 points until the year 2050.

----------------------------------

This is silly, really.

If the Union could go from around 150 points to 600 points in just 12 years, then why does China need 100 years to go from 100 points to 500? If anything, China should be able to reach 500 points by 1960 (or something like that), not by 2050 AD or later.

China will not be the only one suffering from the extreme cost of "Economy Improvement by 1 Point per Year for Cost of 24 Points". Look at poor, poor India- it only has 16 economic points! Also what about all these small nations like Colombia, Sweden, Afghanistan, MEU, etc. that have a low net income- they won't be able to realize their industrial potential as their population keeps growing.

Nations with a net income of only 1 - 5 points would need 100 years literally to gain 5 - 10 more economic points.

The only alternative is to beg and whine for foreign aid from the Pact or the LTA. Then the "victim" nation is subject to Pact or LTA pulling strings and blackmail- "Do what I say, or I will cut off all economic aid". There'll be no more true independence of nations. :(

---------------------------

What all this comes down to....

Building economic improvements is not worth it anymore. You guys might as well never use your points to build economy because natural growth would do it for "free".

GB might as well remove that option altogether, or modify it to the old system where 1 economic improvement equals 2 points per year, or push it to maybe 3 points per year for 1 economic improvement. Only then, would the economic investment be a viable and worthwhile option.

Thankfully, I'm going to have 30 points in 1941 (26 base + 4 commerce), but it's pretty sad.

Just wondering, when you factor in % growth, does that include shipping? Or just base points? So would it be my growth in 1942 be 30 +3% or 26 +3%?

ALSO, when you add in the extra growth, you don't get a full number. You get like 26.78. So what do you do? Round it? Don't count the extra percent?

Just wondering, when you factor in % growth, does that include shipping? Or just base points? So would it be my growth in 1942 be 30 +3% or 26 +3%?

ALSO, when you add in the extra growth, you don't get a full number. You get like 26.78. So what do you do? Round it? Don't count the extra percent?

The % growth does not include shipping, just your base economy points.

As to the rounding of numbers, I have always rounded up for my figures in all circumstances whether beneficial or not. Unless the number is something like 12.5 and I have something to balance out the half point with (Eg. military maintenence or whatever). I don't know what the general rule is, but I have certainly always rounded up and I think others have too, but i'm not sure.

Really, you've got serious problems - you're playing China, for god's sake. If it were easy to industrialize, don't you think the RL Chinese could've figured it out? They had some smart people over there, you know.

Remember, you're playing freakin' China, for god's sake. It's one of the most challenged countries in the Twentieth Century. If you expected it to be easy, I can understand how the reality might be frustrating, but you were sadly mistaken.

This is a country that fought a forty-year long civil war, during the course of which it was invaded, and they still kept fighting each other. And after the war? The Great Leap Forward (the single most incompetent and destructive economic program in human history), followed by the Cultural Revolution (a pointless bloodbath engineered by the powermongering of one of the most corrupt men who ever lived), and is now probably the most ruthlessly exploitative capitalist state on earth.

There are serious, deep reasons why all these things happened. Reasons that aren't that easy to change. These were problems that brilliant, idealistic, and dedicated patriots were unable to avoid in Real Life.

None of which has happened to E20 China.

1. No Great Leap Forward.

2. No 40 year civil war (the E20 China's civil war was only 2 years, including the Japanese invasion)

3. No Cultural Revolution.

4. E20 China has a democratic government instead of the RL oppressive communist one created by Mao Zedong and his Party.


Once an economy reaches a certain size, this is true, since economic growth happens in percentages (that's why I stopped industrializing after five years and reduced spending for two). Below a certain size, however, it makes sense to directly invest.

Actually as it stands, no matter how big or small a nation is, it cannot really directly invest as 24 point cost for a boost of just 1 point a year is way too steep.

A 10 million population nation, a 50 million one, a 200 million, or even a 500 million population nation will have major problems directly investing.

Let me put it this way- Colombia, Afghanistan, MEU, or such can simply do peace-time market economy, and gain 1 point minium a year for free. A nation that needs to build 10 more income points a turn can simply use natural growth to get it instead of directly investing it.

The only way I can see "direct economy investment" as becoming viable for nations of all sizes and economic levels (beginner, medium, or maxed out) is to reduce the 24 point cost for 1 income point to something like the following (options)...

1. 24 points for 2 economy income points (similiar to old "Factory" income system)
2. 24 points for 3 economy income points.
3. 12 points for 1 economy income point.
4. 8 points for 1 economy income point.

These would allow nations to invest in their economies better and more realistically.

Look at India. It only has 30 points by 1941. It will take 10 - 20 years for India to build just one economuc improvement for +1 point a turn. Then 10 years for a second improvement, and so on. India won't be able to sustain a Level II or III social service on its own until 2100 AD or later.

We all know in RL, India will be a powerhouse in RL by 2020 - 2050 AD, perhaps rivaling the USA and China in economic power (All in RL).

Look at India. It only has 30 points by 1941. It will take 10 - 20 years for India to build just one economuc improvement for +1 point a turn. Then 10 years for a second improvement, and so on. India won't be able to sustain a Level II or III social service on its own until 2100 AD or later.

We all know in RL, India will be a powerhouse in RL by 2020 - 2050 AD, perhaps rivaling the USA and China in economic power (All in RL).
Do we all know that? I sure don't. India looks pretty fragile to me - I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there. Besides, who built (and owned) India's factories? Not Indians. Maybe you're too young to remember Bhopal.


Actually as it stands, no matter how big or small a nation is, it cannot really directly invest as 24 point cost for a boost of just 1 point a year is way too steep.

A 10 million population nation, a 50 million one, a 200 million, or even a 500 million population nation will have major problems directly investing.

Let me put it this way- Colombia, Afghanistan, MEU, or such can simply do peace-time market economy, and gain 1 point minium a year for free. A nation that needs to build 10 more income points a turn can simply use natural growth to get it instead of directly investing it.

The only way I can see "direct economy investment" as becoming viable for nations of all sizes and economic levels (beginner, medium, or maxed out) is to reduce the 24 point cost for 1 income point to something like the following (options)...

1. 24 points for 2 economy income points (similiar to old "Factory" income system)
2. 24 points for 3 economy income points.
3. 12 points for 1 economy income point.
4. 8 points for 1 economy income point.

These would allow nations to invest in their economies better and more realistically.
More realistically? In Real Life, China is only industrializing now, and at a massive social cost you consistently fail to acknowledge or possibly even perceive. In Real Life only Japan and United States successfully industrialized outside of Europe, and a few other countries in Asia which were heavily subsidized by the United States. Realistically, all y'all wouldl be screwed permanently. We've had enough goddamn reforms. You just want to change the entire freakin' system to benefit you, because you feel left out of a bonanza you realistically wouldn't get.

None of which has happened to E20 China.

1. No Great Leap Forward.

2. No 40 year civil war (the E20 China's civil war was only 2 years, including the Japanese invasion)

3. No Cultural Revolution.

4. E20 China has a democratic government instead of the RL oppressive communist one created by Mao Zedong and his Party.


That was exactly my point. You're astonishingly good at missing it. None of those things have happened - yet. They were symptomatic of deep sociopolitical tensions and profound economic problems which you've never successfully addressed or even noticed. They were effects, not causes.

I'm about through talking to you if you're going to be this dense.

How would cost of factories graded to tech level work?
The lower your tech level the cheaper it is to industrialize, but as you industrialize you of course advance tech levels and so industrializing would become ever more expensive (to a point [or maybe not]).

I for one am not going to start industrializing again until I have at least twenty four commerce points coming in annually.

It feels like the Kingdom of Bulgaria has been stuck at 4 points (5th level economy) since 1932 or earlier and has not changed its value even after the attempts to reform and refurbish our nation and yet no one seems to be paying much attention to any of these "insignificant nations" who are naturally at the point of desparation...

It feels like the Kingdom of Bulgaria has been stuck at 4 points (5th level economy) since 1932 or earlier and has not changed its value even after the attempts to reform and refurbish our nation and yet no one seems to be paying much attention to any of these "insignificant nations" who are naturally at the point of desparation...

at 3% growth it would take you 8 years to gain a point. You need your rich neighbor to help you

How would cost of factories graded to tech level work?
The lower your tech level the cheaper it is to industrialize, but as you industrialize you of course advance tech levels and so industrializing would become ever more expensive (to a point [or maybe not]).

I for one am not going to start industrializing again until I have at least twenty four commerce points coming in annually.

tech level 4 - 6 industries cost the same, tech level 7 will increase and tech level 8 increase as well.

Ahh so its already in place.

People, it's hard to industrialize. If it were easy, the world would be a much fairer place.

That's why nobody's playing anywhere in Africa except nasty old South Africa.

If you want to play a rich country, there are still places in Europe that are open. Otherwise, accept that it's not going to be easy and cheap.

That's why nobody's playing anywhere in Africa except nasty old South Africa.

Hah. It's good to be loved.

People, it's hard to industrialize. If it were easy, the world would be a much fairer place.

That's why nobody's playing anywhere in Africa except nasty old South Africa.

If you want to play a rich country, there are still places in Europe that are open. Otherwise, accept that it's not going to be easy and cheap.

Hell no, I wasn't complaining I would not swap the USEA for anything and anyway I have plan.

Hell no, I wasn't complaining I would not swap the USEA for anything and anyway I have plan.
No. You weren't complaining.

For that matter, I actually have faith in your competence to make something of your country.

It's the Whiny Giants that drive me nuts.

The % growth does not include shipping, just your base economy points.

As to the rounding of numbers, I have always rounded up for my figures in all circumstances whether beneficial or not. Unless the number is something like 12.5 and I have something to balance out the half point with (Eg. military maintenence or whatever). I don't know what the general rule is, but I have certainly always rounded up and I think others have too, but i'm not sure.

umm, actually Vas pointed out that it should.. so from now on, its domestic points plus commerce plus colonial income to determine your base then add percentage growth.

I have adjusted the US, Japan, UK accordingly, Vas had been doing that already for the Union. Basically at this point the LTA has a substantial economic advantage over the Pact in spite of the Union being a bigger economy than the US or British Empire.

Ah, but don't forget - half the Republics of the Union are Market Economies, and half Command.

You are doomed. Doomed, I say! DOOOOooooOOOOOOMMMMed!!!

You're all going to gang up on me and nuke me, now, aren't you?

I would.

You're all going to gang up on me and nuke me, now, aren't you?

I would.

Don't worry Vas after the Union has been reduced to a glassed crater you can come and stay in the USEA and have all the spicy noodles you could possibly want..... Parthini can come too. :D

Don't worry Vas after the Union has been reduced to a glassed crater you can come and stay in the USEA and have all the spicy noodles you could possibly want..... Parthini can come too. :D
Hmm. I do love spicy noodles . . .

You're all going to gang up on me and nuke me, now, aren't you?

I would.

not until we do a survey of all of the available mineshaft space in the country

Hah! You'll find you have a Mineshaft Gap!

And your fish isn't nearly fresh enough.

Wait... commerce points count for natural growth? Why? And when did this happen?

Wait... commerce points count for natural growth? Why? And when did this happen?

because it generates jobs, and jobs generate growth. Which is why the US in real life went for NAFTA.

GB, how much would this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10219002#post10219002) cost?

GB, how much would this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10219002#post10219002) cost?

The Union built a railway during the 2nd Great War from Samarkand through Kabual to Lahore. So at this point India is already linked to the Union. A railroad already extends out of Lahore and Karachi to the Persian border. So basically a 1,000 mile extension through Bandar Abbas and then to Bandar Shapur connects India to the MEU and also to Europe indirectly through Russia. Figure about 24 points though as the Iranian Desert and the Zagross Mountians are pretty tough to deal with.

The Union built a railway during the 2nd Great War from Samarkand through Kabual to Lahore. So at this point India is already linked to the Union. A railroad already extends out of Lahore and Karachi to the Persian border. So basically a 1,000 mile extension through Bandar Abbas and then to Bandar Shapur connects India to the MEU and also to Europe indirectly through Russia. Figure about 24 points though as the Iranian Desert and the Zagross Mountians are pretty tough to deal with.

I'm not making it to connect to the Union and the M.E.U., because I know I already did that. I'm also making it to help Afghanistan, y'know. Having a more modern, happy, not that poor, and friendly Afghanistan is better than having a backwards, angry, extremely poor, and hostile Afghanistan.

Do we all know that? I sure don't. India looks pretty fragile to me - I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there. Besides, who built (and owned) India's factories? Not Indians. Maybe you're too young to remember Bhopal.

Maybe so.

More realistically? In Real Life, China is only industrializing now, and at a massive social cost you consistently fail to acknowledge or possibly even perceive. In Real Life only Japan and United States successfully industrialized outside of Europe, and a few other countries in Asia which were heavily subsidized by the United States. Realistically, all y'all wouldl be screwed permanently. We've had enough goddamn reforms. You just want to change the entire freakin' system to benefit you, because you feel left out of a bonanza you realistically wouldn't get.

First, in real life, China wasn't as stable or advanced as it is in E20. In the 1920's, there was governmental and economic stability and growth, unlike in RL China because of the RL civil war. The 1930's only saw 2 years of civil war (1935 - 1936) in E20, as opposed to the RL civil war (1911 - 1949). 2 years of civil war in E20 compared to 38 years in RL? Huge difference.

Second, I am not advocating this just for me. I'm advocating this for all these poor and unfortunate countries, or the nations with very little net income. I'm advocating this for India, Afghanistan, Colombia, MEU, South American nations, African nations, Belgium, Burgundy, Sweden, Ireland, etc.

That was exactly my point. You're astonishingly good at missing it. None of those things have happened - yet. They were symptomatic of deep sociopolitical tensions and profound economic problems which you've never successfully addressed or even noticed. They were effects, not causes.

I'm about through talking to you if you're going to be this dense.

First of all, I do not have a college degree in history, nor am I "intimate" with all the specifics of Chinese history. I know just as much about RL China between 1900 - 1960's as the average American or high schooler. Even if I do research (which I am trying to do, hence me coming up with some of these economic and social ideas like hydroelectricty, oil, etc.) I still won't and probably never will be as intimate with China as Vas or anyone with a degree in Chinese history will be.

I probably will never be able to solve China problems at a whim. I'm just a good ol' American who is playing E20 for the fun of it- hardly anyone who could miracle-ly cure China problems and ills. I try to address them as I know how to- for example, I addressed China's flooding problem. I also addressed some social issues by introducing a democratic form of government (instead of re-establishing a new dynasty in the 30's or going Communist government).

I'd literally need an entire team of RL economists, society experts, historians, military advisors, engineers, etc. to really address 75% or more of China's problems. In short, I'd need a RL "cabinet" of sorts, but I don't have that. Some common sense solutions to social issues, like introducing more freedoms and democracy, may not work as well for Chinese as it did for the Americans or other nations. Or some domestic improvement to address some issues like flooding, mass transportation, electrification, etc. may not have the same effect on China as it does elsewhere. And so on.

The same would be true if I was playing Italy, Egypt, Afghanistan, or any other E20 nation other than the USA. I wouldn't be an expert on these nations, and I am fully entitled to making some mistakes in playing these nations- exactly like these nations had RL leaders who made mistakes (Nixon, anyone?)

Finally, the reason why I'm griping is because it is now impossible for other nations to grow their economies as fast as the Union did between 1927 - 1938. Even if the conditions were the exact same. To put it simply, if the Union could quadruple its economy between 1927 - 1938, then why can't other nations copy this feat? The Union makes industrializing and economic growth look extremely easy.

Maybe so.



First, in real life, China wasn't as stable or advanced as it is in E20. In the 1920's, there was governmental and economic stability and growth, unlike in RL China because of the RL civil war. The 1930's only saw 2 years of civil war (1935 - 1936) in E20, as opposed to the RL civil war (1911 - 1949). 2 years of civil war in E20 compared to 38 years in RL? Huge difference.

Second, I am not advocating this just for me. I'm advocating this for all these poor and unfortunate countries, or the nations with very little net income. I'm advocating this for India, Afghanistan, Colombia, MEU, South American nations, African nations, Belgium, Burgundy, Sweden, Ireland, etc.



First of all, I do not have a college degree in history, nor am I "intimate" with all the specifics of Chinese history. I know just as much about RL China between 1900 - 1960's as the average American or high schooler. Even if I do research (which I am trying to do, hence me coming up with some of these economic and social ideas like hydroelectricty, oil, etc.) I still won't and probably never will be as intimate with China as Vas or anyone with a degree in Chinese history will be.

I probably will never be able to solve China problems at a whim. I'm just a good ol' American who is playing E20 for the fun of it- hardly anyone who could miracle-ly cure China problems and ills. I try to address them as I know how to- for example, I addressed China's flooding problem. I also addressed some social issues by introducing a democratic form of government (instead of re-establishing a new dynasty in the 30's or going Communist government).

I'd literally need an entire team of RL economists, society experts, historians, military advisors, engineers, etc. to really address 75% or more of China's problems. In short, I'd need a RL "cabinet" of sorts, but I don't have that. Some common sense solutions to social issues, like introducing more freedoms and democracy, may not work as well for Chinese as it did for the Americans or other nations. Or some domestic improvement to address some issues like flooding, mass transportation, electrification, etc. may not have the same effect on China as it does elsewhere. And so on.

The same would be true if I was playing Italy, Egypt, Afghanistan, or any other E20 nation other than the USA. I wouldn't be an expert on these nations, and I am fully entitled to making some mistakes in playing these nations- exactly like these nations had RL leaders who made mistakes (Nixon, anyone?)

Finally, the reason why I'm griping is because it is now impossible for other nations to grow their economies as fast as the Union did between 1927 - 1938. Even if the conditions were the exact same. To put it simply, if the Union could quadruple its economy between 1927 - 1938, then why can't other nations copy this feat? The Union makes industrializing and economic growth look extremely easy.

I agree with what your saying, to a point. However, I don't think you can do as much growth in the same amount of time as he did it, because frankly, you're comparing the Soviet Union, which includes the great European Powerhouses of Germany and Russia, to China, which doesn't even include all of China (although it does have a very large portion of Chinas industry). That's not to say you can't grow pretty large in a decade, you just can't grow as large.

Also, factor in that Vas used a National effort. Double his points gave him about 300; more than enough to build a helluva lot of factories.

I agree with what your saying, to a point. However, I don't think you can do as much growth in the same amount of time as he did it, because frankly, you're comparing the Soviet Union, which includes the great European Powerhouses of Germany and Russia, to China, which doesn't even include all of China (although it does have a very large portion of Chinas industry). That's not to say you can't grow pretty large in a decade, you just can't grow as large.

Also, factor in that Vas used a National effort. Double his points gave him about 300; more than enough to build a helluva lot of factories.

I'm not just saying I want China to quadruple its economy. I'd like to see this feat repeated for all these other backwards or poor nations, like India, USEA, MEU, Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, etc.

EDIT:

Another reason for this is that I don't want these nations (myself included) to be walked all over by the Union, the Pact, or even the LTA. I just don't want "Hey, I don't like what you're doing. Time for regime change. INVASION!" kind of thing without us having even a 0.0001% chance of defending ourselves, and then we'd be powerless to prevent our governments being forcibly changed or be unable to combat blackmail.

Then again, I'm just a big ol' idealist.

Take Argentina off the list. True, we have only 12 base points for 11 million people, but with 34 points of commerce, Argentina's doing pretty well economically. :cool:

I'm not just saying I want China to quadruple its economy. I'd like to see this feat repeated for all these other backwards or poor nations, like India, USEA, MEU, Brazil, Argentina, Belgium, etc.

First of all, Belguim isn't that poor, and Argentina and the MEU are much better off than they were historically. Actually, so is India and China. Secondly, China was on its way until it had a civil war.

As I have said over and over, its very, very difficult for a large poor country to modernize and reach Great Power status. The Union had the advantage of having Germany tied to Russia, and that is what really made it possible. Russia never could have done it alone.

Colombia wouldn't be where it is without huge US investment early in the game either. Vietnam just got a huge headstart and Korea got one too earlier in the game. China did get some US assistance, and some British assistance too, which is why you got as far as you did.

You play the cards you are dealt as best you can. That is the challenge of this RP.

First of all, Belguim isn't that poor, and Argentina and the MEU are much better off than they were historically. Actually, so is India and China. Secondly, China was on its way until it had a civil war.

As I have said over and over, its very, very difficult for a large poor country to modernize and reach Great Power status. The Union had the advantage of having Germany tied to Russia, and that is what really made it possible. Russia never could have done it alone.

Colombia wouldn't be where it is without huge US investment early in the game either. Vietnam just got a huge headstart and Korea got one too earlier in the game. China did get some US assistance, and some British assistance too, which is why you got as far as you did.

You play the cards you are dealt as best you can. That is the challenge of this RP.

I just hope to have India as industrialized as it is now about 2-3 decades earlier.

First of all, Belguim isn't that poor, and Argentina and the MEU are much better off than they were historically. Actually, so is India and China. Secondly, China was on its way until it had a civil war.

As I have said over and over, its very, very difficult for a large poor country to modernize and reach Great Power status. The Union had the advantage of having Germany tied to Russia, and that is what really made it possible. Russia never could have done it alone.

Colombia wouldn't be where it is without huge US investment early in the game either. Vietnam just got a huge headstart and Korea got one too earlier in the game. China did get some US assistance, and some British assistance too, which is why you got as far as you did.

You play the cards you are dealt as best you can. That is the challenge of this RP.

Point taken.

I'm just venting my frustrations, partly because of the Unions rapid economic development that seemingly cannot be copied by anyone else, and partly because I'm kind of afraid that the Union would end up conquering the entire world (or something like that).

I was wondering, once i complete research on the VTOLs what would i have? I am guessing something like the Autogiro, then in the next 24 point something like the MI-1, so on and so on. With me being a pact nation, i am sure i would have access to researchers like Mikhail Mil to help with the research.

I was wondering, once i complete research on the VTOLs what would i have? I am guessing something like the Autogiro, then in the next 24 point something like the MI-1, so on and so on. With me being a pact nation, i am sure i would have access to researchers like Mikhail Mil to help with the research.

you should be able to field one of the World War II German helicopters by now .... I will look some up later, or you can.

I'm just going to shut up here in E20 and scream in RL, neighbors be damned.

I realize its gonna be hard to industrialize China, but at the same time, I want to be able to do social services without worrying about rebellions and still have funds left over for military stuff.

Right now, I would be one extremely happy man if China could get a peacetime income of 200 - 250 points annually. I'm not even looking into having China have 500 or 1000 points annually.

New Japanese Builds for 1938
National Effort (Last Year)
62(x2) + 30 Shipping Units + 2 Points (3% Growth 2x for NE) = 156

Military Maintenance: 49.5 Points
Domestic Services = 18 Points
2 National Airlines = 10
2 International Airlines = 12
Aid to Siam = 7.5 Points
Investment in Japan = 48 (+2 Points to Base Points next year)
2 Marine Corps = 8 Points
Aid to Rebels in Dutch East Indies = 5 Points

Total: 150 Points Spent

As Japan is an ally of Argentina's, a team of Argentine economists write a letter to the Japanese Secretary of the Treasury and make the following points:
1. The resources alocated to airlines are far too large to be cost-efficient. (In game terms, you only need to build 1 national and 1 international airline.)
2. Japan has unused government income that will be wasted if it is not spent. (In game terms, you have 6 points that you aren't using.)
3. By correcting these mistakes (game terms: following my advice and saving 17 points), Japan could provide better social services to her people.
(Game terms: provide level IV social services at a cost of 35 points).

China, my advice is try to get some people to invest in your nation, something you did well at the beginning, but have stopped doing. No country with a large population and few industrial points can modernize it's self

Now as to my VTOL craft, I am thinking i will field the Autogiro, which Yugoslavia historically had. It is a lot like the German one, if not identical. Then a few Fa-223 Drache's from Germany. Then in 1943-1944 start production of the MI-1. Since we are 5 years ahead(technologically) that puts it right on time or a year late.I forsee MI-2's with rocket pods by 1953 or so. MI-8 in 1955-56 and that is as far ahead as i am going to plan.

How many points a year should i focus on that plan?

As Japan is an ally of Argentina's, a team of Argentine economists write a letter to the Japanese Secretary of the Treasury and make the following points:
1. The resources alocated to airlines are far too large to be cost-efficient. (In game terms, you only need to build 1 national and 1 international airline.)
2. Japan has unused government income that will be wasted if it is not spent. (In game terms, you have 6 points that you aren't using.)
3. By correcting these mistakes (game terms: following my advice and saving 17 points), Japan could provide better social services to her people.
(Game terms: provide level IV social services at a cost of 35 points).

ooc
he has a point.... plus it will help Japan educationally as well, something the Japanese are very big on

China, my advice is try to get some people to invest in your nation, something you did well at the beginning, but have stopped doing. No country with a large population and few industrial points can modernize it's self

Now as to my VTOL craft, I am thinking i will field the Autogiro, which Yugoslavia historically had. It is a lot like the German one, if not identical. Then a few Fa-223 Drache's from Germany. Then in 1943-1944 start production of the MI-1. Since we are 5 years ahead(technologically) that puts it right on time or a year late.I forsee MI-2's with rocket pods by 1953 or so. MI-8 in 1955-56 and that is as far ahead as i am going to plan.

How many points a year should i focus on that plan?

none, as its a natural development at this point

China, my advice is try to get some people to invest in your nation, something you did well at the beginning, but have stopped doing. No country with a large population and few industrial points can modernize it's self

Yeah. I'm too afraid to ask the Pact for assistance and investment as they'd probably try to subvert me to Communism. France's the only one in the Pact that I can count on, and Rumania to a lesser extent. However, I can't exactly be best buddies with the LTA nations after going aganist them in Great War 2. So I'm in a tight spot for foreign aid.

Anyways, I'll be the happiest E20 player when I'll be able to afford Level III social services, a 20 - 30 point military maintainence, and some slack for building or moderning stuff which should be an income of 200 points or something.

Yeah. I'm too afraid to ask the Pact for assistance and investment as they'd probably try to subvert me to Communism. France's the only one in the Pact that I can count on, and Rumania to a lesser extent. However, I can't exactly be best buddies with the LTA nations after going aganist them in Great War 2. So I'm in a tight spot for foreign aid.

Anyways, I'll be the happiest E20 player when I'll be able to afford Level III social services, a 20 - 30 point military maintainence, and some slack for building or moderning stuff which should be an income of 200 points or something.

Thank the gods I have the LTA to watch my back. Great Britain in particular has been a friend to my current government, giving aid to give 200 million Indians level I services.

since i don't have to pay research on the VTOLs :P
Yugoslavia
1938
Command Economy
Income: 26
Merchant Marine: 9
Foreign Assistance: 12
Total: 47

Maintenence:
4x to military
10x to welfare

National Builds:
10x Merchant Marine 30 points
1x Light Cruiser Federation Class "Alexander" 1 point(completion)
1x point to upgrade tank corps to Panzer Vs and VIs

Foreign Aid:
2x point to Albanian Communist

Thank the gods I have the LTA to watch my back. Great Britain in particular has been a friend to my current government, giving aid to give 200 million Indians level I services.

I know how you feel. The brits helped me out too.

Hmm... seems like they're doing pretty well at fostering goodwill.

I know how you feel. The brits helped me out too.

Hmm... seems like they're doing pretty well at fostering goodwill.

Aye. Probably even better than in RL, too, if Argentina isn't constantly plotting Great Britains demise ;)

Sharina- first of all chill out!, second this game isn't like Civs or Age of Empires. Third, you picked one of the hardest nations to rp as...China isn't a cakewallk as you seem to think it is,and don't think you have hard nation to rp, many of us have nations that aren't a cakewalk, like me...I am playing the freaking Middle East, as mainly one nation..its bitch to hold all those different groups and factions...and the fundies..its fun...and last take it little by little..don't do hairbrain projects to expand your econ...you don't have rapidly expand you econ so you can supass over time like rl China...as the saying goes lifes not cakewalk its bitch..deal with it. Dude I will be very frank with you, if you belive you can't handle China, then pick a smaller nation that more easy to handle..no ones forcing you to rp as China.

And don't give that bs that just because I am taking Pact Aid, that I have to a Commies, I have Market economy atm , so is France and number of other nations of the pact, don't us that bs that if we take Pact Aid, that we must be commie..

Sharina- first of all chill out!, second this game isn't like Civs or Age of Empires. Third, you picked one of the hardest nations to rp as...China isn't a cakewallk as you seem to think it is,and don't think you have hard nation to rp, many of us have nations that aren't a cakewalk, like me...I am playing the freaking Middle East, as mainly one nation..its bitch to hold all those different groups and factions...and the fundies..its fun...and last take it little by little..don't do hairbrain projects to expand your econ...you don't have rapidly expand you econ so you can supass over time like rl China...as the saying goes lifes not cakewalk its bitch..deal with it. Dude I will be very frank with you, if you belive you can't handle China, then pick a smaller nation that more easy to handle..no ones forcing you to rp as China.

And don't give that bs that just because I am taking Pact Aid, that I have to a Commies, I have Market economy atm , so is France and number of other nations of the pact, don't us that bs that if we take Pact Aid, that we must be commie..

The reason why I think the Pact may try to subvert me into Commie- take the Union's Mutual Aid Societies for example. That is a covert and underhanded way to increase communism sentiment in China in hopes of turning China into a Communist State and then more pro-pact. I want to stay free of foreign influence and subterferge and "change government" plans like the USSR and USA did during the Cold War to Third World nations.

Second, I'd have the same problems if I played a smaller nation. If I played Afghanistan, Egypt, Cuba, Canada, or whatever, I'd still be frustrated if I can't afford to maintain social services and military.

I repeat myself, when and the instant I get 200 points a year, then I will never complain again because I'll be able to sustain Level III social spending (which means less rebellion and revolt sentiment, as well as undercut the Commies), have enough points to maintain a strong defensive military (20 - 30 maintainence points), and some slack (10 - 20 extra points a year) to build projects or more units or research or other builds.

I'm not even gonna try to maxmize my economy- I'll be happy just to have 200 points...

Expenditures:

160 for Level III social services
20 - 30 for military maintainence
10 - 20 for projects or such

See what I'm getting at? Once I reach that level- I won't have anything major to complain or gripe about, really.

Welcome to being poor. You can't have everything you want.

Edit: Also, to my knowledge there are no communists in E20. Only socialists.

Welcome to being poor. You can't have everything you want.

Edit: Also, to my knowledge there are no communists in E20. Only socialists.

Basically, I'm frustrated because...

1. If I cut Social Services to make room for military and economic improvement, then I risk rebellion and revolts.

2. If I cut military, I can sustain social services and avoid rebellion + revolts. But then I'll be wide open for invasion from Japan or Union or whoever wants to destroy China.

So you see my dilemma.

Basically, I'm frustrated because...

1. If I cut Social Services to make room for military and economic improvement, then I risk rebellion and revolts.

2. If I cut military, I can sustain social services and avoid rebellion + revolts. But then I'll be wide open for invasion from Japan or Union or whoever wants to destroy China.

So you see my dilemma.

Yes, and I pity you not a whit. It's what you get for choosing one of the most historically troubled nations on earth.

Yes, and I pity you not a whit. It's what you get for choosing one of the most historically troubled nations on earth.

I'd pity him, maybe; if I didn't have a country with a mere 30 points, am the second-largest population wise on the planet, and am barely holding back a communist revolution. And these aren't pansy socialists. These are honest-to-god commies.

sigh... I don't suppose you guys could take all this to the Chatzy board... this is clogging up the thread, and soon I will have to start another one as it is.

sigh... I don't suppose you guys could take all this to the Chatzy board... this is clogging up the thread, and soon I will have to start another one as it is.

Will do.

Henceforth, all discussion about frustrations, economic woes, and such will take place at Chatzy in the main E20 room.

Now we return you to our scheducled economic build programming.

Question: does the 10% growth from rural electrification include commerce points? For instance, if a country with 10 base points and 10 commerce points does rural electrification, do they get 1 extra point or 2?

Question: does the 10% growth from rural electrification include commerce points? For instance, if a country with 10 base points and 10 commerce points does rural electrification, do they get 1 extra point or 2?
I'd assume 2. There's no particular rationale other than that an entire economy benefits from things that affect an entire nation. That and playability.

Question: does the 10% growth from rural electrification include commerce points? For instance, if a country with 10 base points and 10 commerce points does rural electrification, do they get 1 extra point or 2?

I've been wondering the same thing myself.

Wouldn't rural electrification help commerce- like electrificate docks, train stations, railroad signals, farm machinery, electric railroad tracks, electrified rural airports, etc.?

I'd assume 2. There's no particular rationale other than that an entire economy benefits from things that affect an entire nation. That and playability.

for playability, and because the rural economy is able to export more efficiently

Are the new rules agreed on yet??

Are the new rules agreed on yet??

yes, use what is at the beginning of the thread

Whats Chatzy?

Whats Chatzy?

The thread has it's own chat thing. I can't remember where it's at, though.

Its okay I've found it.

I hav just had an idea.

Shouldn't railways and super highways give commerce points too?

My idea for this is that a country gets 1 commerce points for every country it is connected to via a continous railway or super highway network.
The conditions for this would be:

1. Countries that you are connected too must have an internal railway or superhighway network that connects at least four major cities and the capital together.

2. You country's network must be directly or indirectly connected (E.g Via someone elses network or your own, but networks must be connected)

3. A freight company must be built for each country that you are connected to. Costs 2 points.


Example:
The USEA is directly connected to China and Siam, it is indirectly connected to Korea, Manchuria and the Soviet Union.
The USEA has built five freight companies, it therefore gets five commerce points a turn from it's railway connections.

To be blunt, that doesn't strike me as particularly realistic. For instance, Manchuria is connected to the Union, which is connected to France. But I can't see a lot of Franco-Manchurian trade happening, can you?

Besides, it complicates things, something I'm not in favor of.

EDIT: Also, it encourages splintering nations. A clever Union could split Mongolia up into seven or eight nations, and get points for each of them... that doesn't seem right.