NationStates Jolt Archive

I paid for them completely, Algeria started with no military at the time of independence

Yes, I know, but like when the P26 are upgraded to the P40C Warhawk do I have to pay anything or is it part of the US aid?

Japanese Military Forces July 1936

Imperial Japanese Navy
Land and land based forces (Home Islands and Formosa)
1 Marine corps (at Taihoku), 2 Navy landbased fighter units (A6M), 5 Navy landbased 2-engined naval air units (Nell), 1 Navy 4-engined naval air flying boat unit (Mavis), 1 Navy 4-engined bomber unit (B17A), 9 pilot units
deployment: 1 fighter, 2 Nells, 1 B17A at Tanian, 1 fighter, 3 Nells at Sapporo, 1 Mavis at Tokyo,

Combined Fleet (Home waters)
Main Body (based at Hiroshima)
Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, Kimu, Naara, 50 modernized tech level 6 destroyers (5 light ship units), 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit)

Striking Force (based at Tokyo)
Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiei, Kongo battleships Kirishima, Haruna, heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, Jintsu, Sendai, Kiso 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit), 20 modernized tech 6 destroyers (2 light ship units) plus 4 carrier fighters (A6M), 3 carrier torpedo bombers (Kate), 2 carrier dive bombers (Val), 9 carrier pilots

Other forces (based at Nagayo)
50 (5 submarine units) tech level 6 fleet submarines (I class), 40 (2 submarine units) tech level 5 submarines (R class)
40 tech level 5 destroyers (2 light ship units), 8 transport fleet units, 2 amphibious fleet units,
20 shipping units

under construction
5 Antiaircraft cruisers (paid for, available July 1937)

Imperial Japanese Army
2 x 5 point mountain corps (resource hex Hokkaido), 1 x 5 point garrison unit, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Sapporo), 1 x 5 point infantry corps, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Taihoku), 1 HQ, 2 x 9 point infantry corps, 2 x 8 point infantry corps (Nagoya), 4 x 6 point infantry corps (Fukoku), 1 HQ unit, 2 x 12 point armored corps, 2 x 12 point mechanized corps, (Ominato), 1 HQ, 1 x 3 point field artillery unit, 3 x 7 point mechanized corps (Tokyo), 1 x 14 point armored corps (Nagasaki), 4 x 3 point flak units (Hiroshima), 2 x 3 point flak units (Kyoto),

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force
2 x B17C strategic bomber units, 1 x Peggy bomber unit, 1 x fighter unit (Oscar) at Haikoku,


Can someone, anyone help me with figuring out maitanence for this monstrocity?

Yes, I know, but like when the P26 are upgraded to the P40C Warhawk do I have to pay anything or is it part of the US aid?

its a free gift (as the US was phasing them out), but you do have to pay the maintanence for it

Can someone, anyone help me with figuring out maitanence for this monstrocity?

I can later, but not for a few hours

I can later, but not for a few hours

Thank you very much sir, I keep getting different numbers each time I try.

its a free gift (as the US was phasing them out), but you do have to pay the maintanence for it

We thank the United States for its great generosity.

Can someone, anyone help me with figuring out maitanence for this monstrocity?

I would like to try a shot at this:

Imperial Japanese Navy
Land and land based forces (Home Islands and Formosa)
1 Marine corps (at Taihoku), 2 Navy landbased fighter units (A6M), 5 Navy landbased 2-engined naval air units (Nell), 1 Navy 4-engined naval air flying boat unit (Mavis), 1 Navy 4-engined bomber unit (B17A), 9 pilot units
deployment: 1 fighter, 2 Nells, 1 B17A at Tanian, 1 fighter, 3 Nells at Sapporo, 1 Mavis at Tokyo*,

Means I think:
1 marine 0.5
2 fighters 1
5 two engine bombers 5
2 four engine bomber 2
9 pilots Free (2.25 if you want them to have
more skill)
Total= 8.5 (10.75) points
*Note:The last section show the pilot deployment

Combined Fleet (Home waters)
Main Body (based at Hiroshima)
Battleships Yamato, Mushashi, Nagato, Mikasa, Fuso, Yamashiro, Hyugan, heavy cruisers Kinguasa, Haguro, Ashigara, Kitsugari, Aoba, light cruiser Naka, Kimu, Naara, 50 modernized tech level 6 destroyers (5 light ship units), 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit)

I think means:
7 Battleships 3.50
5 Heavy Cruisers 1.25
3 Light Cruisers 0.75
6 Light ship units 1.50

Total= 7 points


Striking Force (based at Tokyo)
Carriers Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Hiei, Kongo battleships Kirishima, Haruna, heavy cruisers Nachi, Myoko, Furutaka, Kako, light cruiser Yubari, Jintsu, Sendai, Kiso 10 tech level 6 destroyers (1 light ship unit), 20 modernized tech 6 destroyers (2 light ship units) plus 4 carrier fighters (A6M), 3 carrier torpedo bombers (Kate), 2 carrier dive bombers (Val), 9 carrier pilots

Means:
8 Carriers 4
2 Battleships 1
4 Heavy Cruisers 1
3 Light Cruisers 0.75
2 Light Ship Units 1
4 Fighters 1
5 single engine bombers 2.5
9 Pilots Free (2.25)

Total=11.25 (13.5)

Other forces (based at Nagayo)
50 (5 submarine units) tech level 6 fleet submarines (I class), 40 (2 submarine units) tech level 5 submarines (R class)
40 tech level 5 destroyers (2 light ship units), 8 transport fleet units, 2 amphibious fleet units,
20 shipping units

Means:
7 submarine units 1.75
2 light ship unit 0.50

Total=2.25

under construction
5 Antiaircraft cruisers (paid for, available July 1937)

Imperial Japanese Army
2 x 5 point mountain corps (resource hex Hokkaido), 1 x 5 point garrison unit, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Sapporo), 1 x 5 point infantry corps, 1 x 3 point flak unit (Taihoku), 1 HQ, 2 x 9 point infantry corps, 2 x 8 point infantry corps (Nagoya), 4 x 6 point infantry corps (Fukoku), 1 HQ unit, 2 x 12 point armored corps, 2 x 12 point mechanized corps, (Ominato), 1 HQ, 1 x 3 point field artillery unit, 3 x 7 point mechanized corps (Tokyo), 1 x 14 point armored corps (Nagasaki), 4 x 3 point flak units (Hiroshima), 2 x 3 point flak units (Kyoto),
2 Mountain 1
1 Garrison free
8 Flak 2
9 Infantry free
4 HQ 2
1 field artillery 0.25
5 Mechanized 2.5
3 Armored 1.5

Total= 9.25

Imperial Japanese Army Air Force
2 x B17C strategic bomber units, 1 x Peggy bomber unit, 1 x fighter unit (Oscar) at Haikoku,

I think means:
2 Four-engine Bombers 4
1 Twin-engine Bomber 1
1 Fighter 0.5

Total=5.5
************************************************
Grand total=43.75 points (48.25 points if you train all of your pilots)
************************************************

PS: If this posts becomes an inconvenience to the mods and/or E20 players then kindly inform me and I will remove it with my humble apologies

SNIP

Thanks Abbassia! Thats a big help.

EDIT: Preliminary budget coming soon for '37

EDIT #2: Does the 60 points stated on the front page include the 4 points from formosia and my shipping units?

I would like to try a shot at this:



Means I think:
1 marine 0.5
2 fighters 1
5 two engine bombers 5
2 four engine bomber 2
9 pilots Free (2.25 if you want them to have
more skill)
Total= 8.5 (10.75) points
*Note:The last section show the pilot deployment



I think means:
7 Battleships 3.50
5 Heavy Cruisers 1.25
3 Light Cruisers 0.75
6 Light ship units 1.50

Total= 7 points




Means:
8 Carriers 4
2 Battleships 1
4 Heavy Cruisers 1
3 Light Cruisers 0.75
2 Light Ship Units 1
4 Fighters 1
5 single engine bombers 2.5
9 Pilots Free (2.25)

Total=11.25 (13.5)



Means:
7 submarine units 1.75
2 light ship unit 0.50

Total=2.25

under construction
5 Antiaircraft cruisers (paid for, available July 1937)


2 Mountain 1
1 Garrison free
8 Flak 2
9 Infantry free
4 HQ 2
1 field artillery 0.25
5 Mechanized 2.5
3 Armored 1.5

Total= 9.25



I think means:
2 Four-engine Bombers 4
1 Twin-engine Bomber 1
1 Fighter 0.5

Total=5.5
************************************************
Grand total=43.75 points (48.25 points if you train all of your pilots)
************************************************

PS: If this posts becomes an inconvenience to the mods and/or E20 players then kindly inform me and I will remove it with my humble apologies


looks correct

I have two very quick questions about South American economics.
1. How many points does Bolivia get?
2. Is Paraguay doing any spending on Social Services?

I have two very quick questions about South American economics.
1. How many points does Bolivia get?
2. Is Paraguay doing any spending on Social Services?
1. GB would be the expert on points, I suppose - although Bolivia is nominally run by a player, Danard.
2. Almost certainly not. Paraguay's history through the 'Thirties is increasingly right-leaning. They might spend on infrastructure, but not likely on people.

OOC: Because I likely won't have time for them tomorrow or Sunday.

Population: 10,063,900
Production Capability: 13 points (10 industry, 3 commerce)

Military Maintenance-2 points (Training pilots to give them a combat bonus)
Level III Social Services-3 points
Field Artillery Unit x1-2 points
Expansion of Railroads-6 points

The finished rail network will be as follows:
current terminals-proposed terminals
Luderitz-Prieska-Bloemfontein
Cape Town-Bloemfontein-Salisbury*
Bloemfontein-Johannesburg-Pretoria
Durban-Johannesburg

*Salisbury is the capital of Southern Rhodesia, and for the purposes of this chart represents the remainder of the Cape-to-Cairo railway

(Placeholder for Chinese Economic Builds for 1937)

I'm still working on figuring out the build for 1937. I want to focus on finishing two projects- fully modernizing my army and finishing rebuilding my factories.

I'm not sure how much reduction I have in maintainence because of GB's new "Tech Level 6 Units are cheaper maintainence now" revision. I think my Maintainence was going to be 25 - 30 points for 1937 I think. I'll have to look up my 1936 build to find the exact maintainence numbers, though.

I'm not sure whether I can upgrade to the Mosquito bomber, or if Britain is still "hating" on China despite its new democratic government. If I can't get the Mosquito, then I guess I'll go with the American A-20 bomber (which is still loads better than I have, while staying to the Japanese peace treaty of no 4 engined combat bombers).

I have two very quick questions about South American economics.
1. How many points does Bolivia get?
2. Is Paraguay doing any spending on Social Services?

last I recall Bolivia got 2 points a turn during wartime, so figure about 4 a year at this point in peacetime. Paraguay is about the same.

Figure neither (unless specified) is spending on social services. The elites get education, but practically no one else does. They are both tech level 4 still.

Paraguay has upgraded its ground forces up to tech level 6 via purchases overseas (buying Italian).

EDIT #2: Does the 60 points stated on the front page include the 4 points from formosia and my shipping units?

bump for a response

YUGOSLAVIA - 1937
Base points: 24(plus 1 for growth)
Merchant Marine: 7
Foreign Assistance: 12
Total Points: 43

Military Maintenence: 4 Points, rounded up from 3.5

1st Alpine Corps* Upkeep: .5 points
1st Infantry Corps - Upkeep Free
1st Armored Corps - Upkeep: .5 points
2nd Armored Corps - Upkeep: .5 points
1st Army Command - Upkeep: .5 points

Navy: - undergoing modernization
1 Pangbourne Class Minesweeper (FRYN Doce)

Jugoslovensko Ratno Vazduhoplovstvo-JRV- Airforce
1st Air Fleet-500 Fighters[IK-3] - Upkeep: .5 points
500xpilots : Upkeep .25 for training

2nd Air Fleet-500 Bombers[JU-87] Upkeep: .5 points
500xpilots : Upkeep .25 for training

Fortifications:
Italian Border-Rupnik Line : Upkeep Free


Industrial Builds:
14 points into Factories(completion)

National Maintenence:
4 Points for Military
10 Points for Welfare(Level 4 Welfare for 14 million people)

National Builds:
2x Merchant Marine 6 points
1x Light Cruiser-Tech 6-(Alexandre) 5-last point to be payed off next year- Points build time 2 years
1x Submarine -Tech 6- 4 Points

The 1937 builds, MEU is on normal spending mode which means we get 22 points plus 40 points from the Soviets, and 10 points from cargo shipping plus 1 point from the airlines, so its 73 points in this turn alone.

27 points for maintaining the arm forces, just leaving 46 for Government Projects

2 Tech 5 light cruiser for two points
4 Garrison troops units for 12 points
1 Naval Pilot for 2 points
1-dive bombers (JU-87) for two points
1 Pilot for 2 points

4 points to Japan for building the two Zero fighter units
2 points to France for training my arm forces.

20 points for Level III State Education and Welfare Programs

Argentina’s 1937 Build

Economy-Start of Year
11 base + 19 commerce
National Effort for 41 points

Military Forces-Start of year
2 mechanized corps, 1 infantry corps, 2 garrison units, 2 fighter units (A6M), 1 bomber unit (Mosquito), 6 pilots, 2 tech level 6 County type light cruisers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers (modernized), 19 shipping units. Maintenance: 3.5 points, using Galveston's new system

Domestic Spending
Level III Social Services-3

Military Spending
Maintenance-3.5
1 infantry unit-2
8 shipping units-24

Foreign Spending
Great Britain-8 (8/46 paid)
Bolivia-.25 (social services)

Economy-End of Year
11.33 Base +27 commerce

Military-End of Year
2 mechanized corps, 2 infantry corps, 3 garrison units, 2 fighter units (A6M), 1 bomber unit (Mosquito), 6 pilots, 2 tech level 6 County type light cruisers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers (modernized), 27 shipping units. Maintenance: 3.5 points

The 1937 builds, MEU is on normal spending mode which means we get 22 points plus 40 points from the Soviets, and 10 points from cargo shipping plus 1 point from the airlines, so its 73 points in this turn alone.

27 points for maintaining the arm forces, just leaving 46 for Government Projects

2 Tech 5 light cruiser for two points
4 Garrison troops units for 12 points
1 Naval Pilot for 2 points
1-dive bombers (JU-87) for two points
1 Pilot for 2 points

6 points to impove the railway system of the MEU.

20 points for Level III State Education and Welfare Programs

Don't forget those two fighter units I'm building you.

The 1937 builds, MEU is on normal spending mode which means we get 22 points plus 40 points from the Soviets, and 10 points from cargo shipping plus 1 point from the airlines, so its 73 points in this turn alone.

27 points for maintaining the arm forces, just leaving 46 for Government Projects

2 Tech 5 light cruiser for two points
4 Garrison troops units for 12 points
1 Naval Pilot for 2 points
1-dive bombers (JU-87) for two points
1 Pilot for 2 points

6 points to impove the railway system of the MEU.

20 points for Level III State Education and Welfare Programs
And your second aircraft carrier, which will be ready this year.

Preliminary Builds for Japan Help Needed!
Switch to National Effort
60(2x) Base Points + 20 Shipping Points = 140 Points

Domestic Services
16 Points

Other Actions:
Mothball three Battleships and two Heavy Cruisers
2.75 Points to Siam for discretionary use

Military Upkeep:
46.25 Points

National Builds
Upgrade Submarine Unit to level 6 – 2 Points
2x A6M Fighters for MEU - (Paid for by him)
2x Mechanized Field Artillery – 6 Points
1x Marine Corps – 4 Points
10x Shipping Units – 10 Points
1x Factory – 36 Points
1x Fleet Carrier – 8 Points
1x Carrier Fighter Unit – 2 Points

Total Points Spent: 133

Preliminary Builds for Japan Help Needed!
Switch to National Effort
60(2x) Base Points + 20 Shipping Points = 140 Points

Domestic Services
16 Points

Other Actions:
Mothball three Battleships and two Heavy Cruisers
2.75 Points to Siam for discretionary use

Military Upkeep:
46.25 Points

National Builds
Upgrade Submarine Unit to level 6 – 2 Points
2x A6M Fighters for MEU - (Paid for by him)
2x Mechanized Field Artillery – 6 Points
1x Marine Corps – 4 Points
10x Shipping Units – 10 Points
1x Factory – 36 Points
1x Fleet Carrier – 8 Points
1x Carrier Fighter Unit – 2 Points

Total Points Spent: 133

Yes, help is needed. ;)

First of all, 10 shipping units will cost you 30 points, not 10.

Second, upgrading a unit requires paying half of its cost. A tech level 5 sub costs 6, so it costs three to upgrade. Also, I suspect (though I don't know for sure) that you don't have a lot of extra pilots sitting around, so building a pilot for that carrier fighter unit might be a good move.

Finally, you still have seven points left. I suggest using them for airlines, since you seem to be focused on becoming an economic superpower.

Chinese Builds for 1937:

Income:

76 points industry (152 from National Effort)
14 points commerce
Total: 166 points

Expeditures:

6 Maintainence points for 6 fighters and 3 bombers.
4 Maintainence points for 8 Mechanized Corps
0.25 points for 1 Light Ship Counter
3.5 points for 7 pilots (I'm confused on the pilot maintainence costs as I'm Tech level 5 but flying Tech 6 aircraft, and the extra training?)
All other military units: Free (I think?)

Total Maintainence: 14 points.

Level II Social Services for 500 million Chinese = 100 points.

-------------------------

Points to Spend: 52

Repair 8 factories for 48 points.

Upgrade 8 Tech Level 5 Garrison Corps to 8 Tech Level 6 Garrison Corps for 4 points (I think China builds infantry for 1 point each as a result of the war, and half of that is 0.5 points each as upgrade cost is 1/2 of unit's original cost):

-------------------------

Chinese Military Forces at end of 1937:

Tech Level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 3x infantry corps, 8x Garrison Corps, 3x anti-tank unit 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline

Tech Level 5 forces
5 x 3 point garrison units, 1 P26 fighter unit, 1 A12 bomber unit, 2 pilots, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats),
Other forces
12 shipping units

-----------------------------

Horrible I know. There's probably a million mistakes in there (as I did this by myself without help), but then again, I have never been good at figuring out this economic point system.

China I thought your still 5 tech atm not 6 six intill 1938...or that changes... and also where is your social spending...you don't want to allow the Soviets to be paying for that all the time...trust me bad idea.

China I thought your still 5 tech atm not 6 six intill 1938...or that changes... and also where is your social spending...you don't want to allow the Soviets to be paying for that all the time...trust me bad idea.

you can purchase higher tech level equipment for your military if you wish, you just have to pay the maintenance and hope your suppliers don't cut your access in the middle of a war

China I thought your still 5 tech atm not 6 six intill 1938...or that changes... and also where is your social spending...you don't want to allow the Soviets to be paying for that all the time...trust me bad idea.

Two things.

First, Russia *IS NOT* spending any social support on China in 1937. He has cut his support, which means China now has to pay full social serices. Therefore, I'm paying for 500 million Chinese. Thats 100 points at Level II Social Spending.

Second, consider my Tech 6 boost coming from France and Colombia. They're my most steadfast allies, and they have said they are supporting me. Therefore I'm upgrading to Tech 6 units with their help.

----------------------------

However, once I revert to Normal Economy in 1938, it will be impossible for me to sustain Level II Social Spending for my populace as I'll only have, what, 100 - 110 points during Normal Mode. See... 100 points for Social Services, then 20 - 30 points for military maintainence (120 - 130 points total of expeditures annually). That leaves me very little to rebuild factories or do any other building projects unless I have 150+ production points a year.

Two things.

First, Russia *IS NOT* spending any social support on China in 1937. He has cut his support, which means China now has to pay full social serices. Therefore, I'm paying for 500 million Chinese. Thats 100 points at Level II Social Spending.

Second, consider my Tech 6 boost coming from France and Colombia. They're my most steadfast allies, and they have said they are supporting me. Therefore I'm upgrading to Tech 6 units with their help.

----------------------------

However, once I revert to Normal Economy in 1938, it will be impossible for me to sustain Level II Social Spending for my populace as I'll only have, what, 100 - 110 points during Normal Mode. See... 100 points for Social Services, then 20 - 30 points for military maintainence (120 - 130 points total of expeditures annually). That leaves me very little to rebuild factories or do any other building projects unless I have 150+ production points a year.
Well, first of all, of course, I'm not "Russia" - even I forget that sometimes, but it's still a pretty important distinction.

Also, we are still funnelling support to the Communists - I didn't publish it because, well, it's covert, and in any case I hadn't decided on how much yet. (And in fact, for IC reasons which will appear in the Chinese Revolution thread shortly, we are cutting back pretty drastically).

But this brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile, but have been reluctant to address for a couple of reasons - first, because it would another layer of complexity to the point system, and second, because it would probably give an advantage to kapitalizt states: deficit spending.

I'm no economist, but as a historian I know that in the early Twentieth Century in RL, when a government needed to raise money for modernization efforts, they'd issue bonds and borrow money from private banks. This still happens today, of course (an example is the American debt to, ironically enough, China), and it was a distinctive feature of Reagan's economic policy (the guy who ignorant flag-waivers think won the Cold War).

I haven't seen much actual borrowing in E20 so far. The US government cut a loan to Colombia, but for the most part the rest of us have been using (or trying unsuccessfully to use) aid as an instrument of foreign policy. We're too nice, I think, to be discussing loans and repayment plans and interest rates with one another. But in any case there ought to be plenty of NPC institutions that should do that for us. One of the distinctive characteristics of capitalism as a system is that is has large amounts of money lying around to be invested in expansion (and that's not always an advantage). Otherwise the differences between capitalism and socialism aren't that clear. The E20 American and Soviet economies, in this point system, don't look too much different, except that we have, like, twice as much revenue. Our per capita productivity is 6% higher, and our welfare services are, oddly, not quite as good. What is not represented, however, is the distribution of wealth, which in a socialist economy is much more even. Because the Union has a market socialist economy rather than a command socialist economy, we could probably issue bonds to raise capital (if a hundred million workers each bought one bond we might be able to raise, I don't know, maybe ten production points). But with the American system, for instance, it might take only a thousand guys on Wall Street to raise ten times as much. And those same guys on Wall Street, and their counterparts in Britain, Japan, Switzerland, Netherlands, Belgium, etc., could do the same for anybody they thought might be a good risk.

The catch, of course is that it would have to be paid back with interest.

I'm sure that a lot of folks won't want to see any further complications added to the already-complicated point system. I think it could be managed, though, especially if we appointed a special Deficit Moderator (I nominate Middle Snu) to keep track of the details.

My initial proposal would be first to distinguish between capitalist, market socialist, and command socialist economies. Command socialist economies wouldn't be able to do deficit spending at all - outside help could only come from players. Market socialist economies should be able to raise very modest amounts of funds from time to time - maybe 2-5% of their baseline spending. Capitalist economies should be able to raise a lot more, perhaps even be unrestricted - the catch, as I say, being the fact that it would all have to be paid back with interest.

Discuss.

I have been pondering both deficit spending and international loans for a while...I will post some thoughts after the holidays.

I like your ideas Vas, I say we use them

I was thinking about that too. I was pondering what wouldv'e happened if I didn't submit my country and all it encompasses to VP (yes, an alternate alternate history). I was thinking how cool it wouldv'e been to be a neutral Germany, building vast armies, and then selling them to other nations, while watching them destroy eachother.

And then I realized I wouldn't have gotten to kill anything, and I scoffed at the idea. But I think a good interest system that the Netherlands or Belgium might use to lend points to say, Paraguay (yes, I want to see them trash South America), and then have Paraguay sell its soul to one of those places. It would make Latin America a more interesting place, rather than some boring, slowly industrializing place.

The Pan-American thing doesn't help either...

French Build, 1937

73 points from factories, 18 points shipping, 2 points air lines (93 points total, 2% growth)

Military Spending

Active Military
2xMech Corps (1 points)
1xAlpine Corps (.5 points)
2xCoastal Artillery (.5 points)
1xFlak Artillery (.25 points)

2xLight Ship Units (.5 points)
2xSub Units (.5 points)
5xLight Cruisers (1.25 points)
1xFleet Carrier (.5 points)
2xEscort Carriers (1 point)

1xFighter Unit (.5 points)
1xNaval Bomber Unit (.5 points)
2xCarrier Fighter Unit (.5 points)
2xCarrier Bomber Unit (.5 points)

2xPilots (.5 points)
4xCarrier Pilots (1 point)

Reserve Military
2xMech Corps (1 point)
1xFlak Artillery (.25 points)
1xMechanized Anti-Tank Unit (.5 points)
2xFighter Units (1 point)
2xBomber Units (1 point)
1xNaval Bomber Unit (.5 points)
1xHQ (.5 points)
1xMarine Corps (.5 points)
4xPilots (1 point)


Maintence: 14.25 points (round to 14)

Military Build/Research

2xTech 6 Heavy Cruiser (FS Revenant and FS Papillion, 14 points)

FS Richeliu (3.5 years remaining)

Henschel Tanks (2 points)

Rockets (2 points)

Jet Engines/Aircraft (2 points)

Total: 20

Military Spending: 34

Domestic SPending

Level Three Social Services (25 points)

West Africa Railway (5 points)

6 points to Factory #1 (18 points remaining)

6 points to Factory #2 (24 points remaining)

6 points Factory#3 (24 points remaining)

10 points to China

Total: 92 points

1 point remaining

Notice that Argentina did make a loan deal with Britain for '36. Just wanted to point it out.

My brain is doing a wonderful little dance as to all the possible uses for such a system. I know that I could do an excellent job of exploiting it, but frankly, I don't think that it would really be worth the effort. I agree that this system would make things more realistic, but I don't think it would make the game significantly more fun.

If people want to make loans, I think a "you give me X points now, and I give you Y points a year for Z years" approach is all we really need. Internal fundraising is like going on National Effort or Wartime Economy. Yes, it's not exactly the same thing, but I don't think we need a new mechanic to represent overspending.

Disclaimer: these are all preliminary thoughts. I may very well be totally wrong. Feel free to point out the error of my ways.

USEA 1937 build

16 points ( 10 from factories in Cam Ranh, Saigon, Hanoi, Phnom Penh and Vientiane + 6 from 3,000,000 tons of shipping)

Domestic:

Level III social spending 6 points

2x Shipping Unit (500,000 tons) 6 points
1x Shipping Unit (500,000 tons) 2.5 points [To be completed next year]

Military:

Military Maintenace:
2x Infantry corps free
1x Motorized .25 points
1x fighter unit .5 points
1x Marine unit .5 points
1x Light ship unit .25 points

Total = 1.5 points

Incidently with my level III social spending and my sending students to foreign universities, how long till the USEA hits tech level 6?

Rumanian Build 1937
25 Points (21 from factories, 4 from shipping)
Normal Spending, 2% Growth

Military Upkeep
3xTech 6 Motorised Corps-.75 points
1xTech 6 Fighter(IAR 81C)-.5 points
2xTech 6 Light Crusiers (RRNS Elisabeta and Dacia)-.5 points
1xTech 6 Heavy Crusier (RRNS Regele Carol I)-.25 points
1x Tech 6 Light Ship Counter (10 destroyers and their escorts)-.25 points
1xField Artillery-.25 points
2x Pilots-0 points

TOTAL: 2.5 points

Military Build
1x Field Artillery Unit-2 points
1x Single Engine bomber unit (Stuka)-2 Points
1x Alpine Corp-3 Points
upgrade 1 Motorised Corp to mechanised Corp-1 point

TOTAL: 8 Points

Domestic Spending
Lvl. 4 social services for 11 Million People-5 Points

TOTAL: 5 Points

TOTAL SPENDING:15.5 points
SURPLUS:9.5 points

Military
1x Active Motorised Corp (Being upgraded to Mechanized)
1x Field Artillery Unit
1xFighter Unit
2xPilots
2x Reserve Motorised Corps
2x Light crusiers
1x Heavy Cruiser
10x Destroyers (1 Light Ship Counter)


I assume that as a member of the pact, I am able to build Stukas. If not, please inform me.

Random Auditing of Builds


TOTAL SPENDING:15.5 points
SURPLUS:9.5 points

Not technically wrong, but your economic advisors are going to strongly advise you to put your surplus to use. I would suggest that you invest in three shipping units for an extra three points from now on.


Upgrade 8 Tech Level 5 Garrison Corps to 8 Tech Level 6 Garrison Corps for 4 points (I think China builds infantry for 1 point each as a result of the war, and half of that is 0.5 points each as upgrade cost is 1/2 of unit's original cost):

Infantry, yes. Garrison units, no. You have to spend 1.5 points to upgrade each one.

6 Maintainence points for 6 fighters and 3 bombers.
4 Maintainence points for 8 Mechanized Corps
0.25 points for 1 Light Ship Counter
3.5 points for 7 pilots (I'm confused on the pilot maintainence costs as I'm Tech level 5 but flying Tech 6 aircraft, and the extra training?)
All other military units: Free (I think?)

Tech level 5 units cost more maintenance than tech level 6 units. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm sure that there are solid reasons behind this. Anyway, a lot of your tech level 5 units cost maintance.

On the bright side, you might want to scrap the tech level 5 aircraft. As far as I can see (based on my observations of the Chinese Revolution), they're pretty useless when engadging tech level 6 aircraft.

Korean Build-
National Effort- 10 points, plus 17 extra from Union.

OOC: DO I have to keep dedicating points over a period of years to a project in order to get something, or do I pay once for a project, and wait for it to be finished (i.e. I paid for some airplanes a few years back, and am waiting for them to be finished.). Because I have some ships coming as well, and if I have to keep spending, I'll need some help.

IC:

1937-

devotion of 15 points (8 donated (Union), 7 domestic) to support for basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, plus to back public universities and social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
2 points (allocated from US Donations) for upkeep of ground forces
8 points for a factory (to be done in 8/9 turns, represents KWP Mutual Aid Fund beginning microloans for small businesses (3 Union pts), and beginnings of government-private sector cooperation (5 domestic pts))
2 Points to go to Nationalist China for Social Aid

We are looking for contractors to provide us industrial aid and investment.

Nothing wrong with that build, except that it doesn't seem to add up. You still have four points left. I assure you that even if you don't want to use them, Argentina can always deal with more money.

Nothing wrong with that build, except that it doesn't seem to add up. You still have four points left. I assure you that even if you don't want to use them, Argentina can always deal with more money.

Threw 2 points to a factory, 2 points to the Chinese.

Tech level 5 units cost more maintenance than tech level 6 units. I'm not exactly sure why, but I'm sure that there are solid reasons behind this. Anyway, a lot of your tech level 5 units cost maintance.

On the bright side, you might want to scrap the tech level 5 aircraft. As far as I can see (based on my observations of the Chinese Revolution), they're pretty useless when engadging tech level 6 aircraft.

Can I get an answer from GB regarding Tech Level 5 units being more expensive than Tech Level 6 units? Maybe he forgot to factor that in when he reduced the maintainence costs of Tech Level 6 units.

Besides, wouldn't it be cheaper to upgrade my tech Level 5 aircraft to Tech Level 6 aircraft instead of buying them outright?

Besides, wouldn't it be cheaper to upgrade my tech Level 5 aircraft to Tech Level 6 aircraft instead of buying them outright?

You can't upgrade aircraft. When you think about why, it makes a lot of sense.

You can't upgrade aircraft. When you think about why, it makes a lot of sense.

Good point.

However, wouldn't it be possible to "recycle" some old aircraft stuff, like mount the old engines on the new airframe, or re-smelt the scrapped metals or whatever? Just throwing out a bone.

Can I get an answer from GB regarding Tech Level 5 units being more expensive than Tech Level 6 units? Maybe he forgot to factor that in when he reduced the maintainence costs of Tech Level 6 units.

Besides, wouldn't it be cheaper to upgrade my tech Level 5 aircraft to Tech Level 6 aircraft instead of buying them outright?

I didn't, tech level 5 units use up equipment more frequently as its lower quality, and in addition, you can't upgrade a tech level 5 biplane to a tech level 6 400 MPH fighter.

you can upgrade ships, and upgrade ground units (as you are reequipping the units and adding more shiny new toys to the ships and improving their engines and electronics)

Rumanian Build 1937
25 Points (21 from factories, 4 from shipping)
Normal Spending, 2% Growth

Military Upkeep
3xTech 6 Motorised Corps-.75 points
1xTech 6 Fighter(IAR 81C)-.5 points
2xTech 6 Light Crusiers (RRNS Elisabeta and Dacia)-.5 points
1xTech 6 Heavy Crusier (RRNS Regele Carol I)-.25 points
1x Tech 6 Light Ship Counter (10 destroyers and their escorts)-.25 points
1xField Artillery-.25 points
2x Pilots-0 points

TOTAL: 2.5 points

Military Build
1x Field Artillery Unit-2 points
1x Single Engine bomber unit (Stuka)-2 Points
1x Alpine Corp-3 Points
upgrade 1 Motorised Corp to mechanised Corp-1 point

TOTAL: 8 Points

Domestic Spending
Lvl. 4 social services for 11 Million People-5 Points
9 points for 3 shipping units
TOTAL: 5 Points

TOTAL SPENDING:24.5 points
SURPLUS:.5 points

Military
1x Active Motorised Corp (Being upgraded to Mechanized)
1x Field Artillery Unit
1xFighter Unit
2xPilots
2x Reserve Motorised Corps
2x Light crusiers
1x Heavy Cruiser
10x Destroyers (1 Light Ship Counter)


I assume that as a member of the pact, I am able to build Stukas. If not, please inform me.

EDITED! Thanks Snu.

I didn't, tech level 5 units use up equipment more frequently as its lower quality, and in addition, you can't upgrade a tech level 5 biplane to a tech level 6 400 MPH fighter.

you can upgrade ships, and upgrade ground units (as you are reequipping the units and adding more shiny new toys to the ships and improving their engines and electronics)

Oh. In that case, I'll scrap all my Tech Level 5 units except for the garrisons, which I want to upgrade to Tech Level 6 garrisons. Or should I upgrade them to Mechanized Infantry? If so, how much would that cost from a Tech level 5 garrison to a Tech level 6 Mechanized Infantry?

Just wondering what to do with the extra points I will have from not paying maintainence for my tech 5 units other than garrisons, as well as these extra points here and there, like my 4 surplus points and the 2 points from Korea.

See this is why I need help with figuring out the point system. I totally suck at that. :(

See this is why I need help with figuring out the point system. I totally suck at that. :(

Never fear, for Middle Snu is here!

1937 China Build-Proposed

Chinese economy (start of year):
76 points industry
14 points commerce
2 from Korea
National Effort for 168 points

Chinese military (Start of year):
tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 3x infantry corps, 3x anti-tank unit 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline
tech level 5 forces
13 x 3 point garrison units, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units
Upkeep: 17.5

Domestic spending:
Level II social services for 106 points.
Fix 6 factories for 36 points.

Military spending
Upkeep: 17.5
Upgrade 5 garrisons to tech level 6 for 7.5
Build 1 tech level 6 infanty unit for 1

Military-end of year
Chinese military (Start of year):
tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 4x infantry corps, 5x garrison unit, 3x anti-tank unit, 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline
tech level 5 forces
8 x 3 point garrison units, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units
Upkeep: 15.75

Economy-end of year
88 points industry
14 points commerce

How does this look? If you feel like you aren't making progress fast enough, you could cut down to level I spending. It's something of a gamble, but you could do a lot with the saved 53 points.

Incidently with my level III social spending and my sending students to foreign universities, how long till the USEA hits tech level 6?

Bump

Could someone give me a basic rundown of how things work? I have somewhat of an idea, but I would like someone who actually knows what they're doing to explain, if they want. Thanks.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1937)
Population:13 million
1937 builds: 24 points base, plus 26 for shipping and airliners

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). - 5 points basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
1 x Light Bomber = 1p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
3 x Flak Artillery = .75p
2 x Carrier Fighter Units = 2p
1 x Carrier Bomber Units = 1p
1 x Fleet Carrier = 1p
2 x Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
TOTAL: 24p

National Builds: (21p left)
1 x Fleet Carrier = 8p [Complete] (Vincente Sewell)
1 x Fleet Carrier = 8p [Complete] (Darío Echandía)
1 x Merchant Marine = 3p
2 Points to Panama Canal effort.

Inkana look on the first page and read.

Never fear, for Middle Snu is here!

1937 China Build-Proposed

Chinese economy (start of year):
76 points industry
14 points commerce
2 from Korea
National Effort for 168 points

Chinese military (Start of year):
tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 3x infantry corps, 3x anti-tank unit 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline
tech level 5 forces
13 x 3 point garrison units, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units
Upkeep: 17.5

Domestic spending:
Level II social services for 106 points.
Fix 6 factories for 36 points.

Military spending
Upkeep: 17.5
Upgrade 5 garrisons to tech level 6 for 7.5
Build 1 tech level 6 infanty unit for 1

Military-end of year
Chinese military (Start of year):
tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 4x infantry corps, 5x garrison unit, 3x anti-tank unit, 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline
tech level 5 forces
8 x 3 point garrison units, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units
Upkeep: 15.75

Economy-end of year
88 points industry
14 points commerce

How does this look? If you feel like you aren't making progress fast enough, you could cut down to level I spending. It's something of a gamble, but you could do a lot with the saved 53 points.

Thanks for the help, its much appreciated.

I was wondering if its possible to provide Level II education for half of my population, roughly 250 million Chinese, then Level I for the other 250 million Chinese? Or do I have to stay with one level spending for everyone?

The fact of the matter is that when I revert back to Normal Spending in 1938, I will not be able to afford Level II services for 500 million Chinese, plus military maintainence. The budget would probably be 100 for social services, plus 15 - 20 for maintainence.

120 points that has to be spent, and I will only have an income of, what, 105 - 110 points? I'll have a deficit, which means I will be paralyzed. I can't even rebuild any remaining factories, upgrade anything, or do anything. I can't scrap my military because then Japan will see that as a sign of weakness, and if I don't keep my military top notch then I'll get raped again.

So its either cuts in Social Spending or being forced to permanently stay on National Effort until I have a stable income of 150+ points per year.

Thanks for the help, its much appreciated.

I was wondering if its possible to provide Level II education for half of my population, roughly 250 million Chinese, then Level I for the other 250 million Chinese? Or do I have to stay with one level spending for everyone?

Personally, I'd say you can't. Unless you want to, say, purge the Communists and continue the war.

The fact of the matter is that when I revert back to Normal Spending in 1938, I will not be able to afford Level II services for 500 million Chinese, plus military maintainence. The budget would probably be 100 for social services, plus 15 - 20 for maintainence.

120 points that has to be spent, and I will only have an income of, what, 105 - 110 points? I'll have a deficit, which means I will be paralyzed. I can't even rebuild any remaining factories, upgrade anything, or do anything. I can't scrap my military because then Japan will see that as a sign of weakness, and if I don't keep my military top notch then I'll get raped again.

So its either cuts in Social Spending or being forced to permanently stay on National Effort until I have a stable income of 150+ points per year.
This is one of the reasons I'm recommending we start an "International Banking Community" kind of thing, that could lend you the points you need to rebuild.

Personally, I'd say you can't. Unless you want to, say, purge the Communists and continue the war.

He could do it if he focused services at one level in the cities, and another level in the countryside. Which would have interesting side effects (speed up movement from peasantry to urban workers for example).

That's novel. And kind of interesting. Come to think of it, I suppose I'm doing something similar by breaking down my own social service levels by republic.

Hmm... I think I would like to start doing the urban migration thing.

That will allow me to start building mechanized farms with harvesters and combines, while trying to get an educationed workforce in urban areas. That way I will be able to reduce the enormous drain of subsistence farming, while helping my people approach Westerner standards overall.

Towards this point, I would like to take 24 points off Level II Social Services, leaving me with 24 points to use. Then I use 12 points of that for Level I to cover these people who aren't getting Level II social services. I will use the other 12 points to upgrade the last of my Tech Level 5 garrisons to Tech Level 6 ones (8 garrisons for a total of 12 points).

Then in 1938, on Normal Mode, I can continue the trend, and maybe even start Level III Social Services in my biggest cities (Shanghai, Beijing, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, Tienstin, and Lanchow), then Level II in suburbs and rural areas, then Level I in countryside and farming communities.

Is this reasonable?

Is this reasonable?

If it is, your new military upkeep is 13.75 points. Just so you know.

Hmm... I think I would like to start doing the urban migration thing.

That will allow me to start building mechanized farms with harvesters and combines, while trying to get an educationed workforce in urban areas. That way I will be able to reduce the enormous drain of subsistence farming, while helping my people approach Westerner standards overall.

Towards this point, I would like to take 24 points off Level II Social Services, leaving me with 24 points to use. Then I use 12 points of that for Level I to cover these people who aren't getting Level II social services. I will use the other 12 points to upgrade the last of my Tech Level 5 garrisons to Tech Level 6 ones (8 garrisons for a total of 12 points).

Then in 1938, on Normal Mode, I can continue the trend, and maybe even start Level III Social Services in my biggest cities (Shanghai, Beijing, Canton, Nanking, Tsingtao, Tienstin, and Lanchow), then Level II in suburbs and rural areas, then Level I in countryside and farming communities.

Is this reasonable?
I'm pretty sure that using harvesters and combines for rice farming is impossible.

You'll also want to research just how much of China's population was rural and how much urban in the 1930's before you make choices about who's getting what level of services.

I'm pretty sure that using harvesters and combines for rice farming is impossible.

It is possible.

http://www.philrice.gov.ph/pub/061605_combine.jpg

http://www.agronomy.ucdavis.edu/uccerice/images/rpfig27.gif

http://www.agmachine.com/rice1.gif

http://adunnphotography.com/galleries/images/2004_0112_11.jpg

It is definitely possible to develop and build rice harvesters and combines. In addition, China also is a major producer of wheat. Even if rice combines can't be deployed for a few years, I can build wheat combines for China's wheat crops.

You'll also want to research just how much of China's population was rural and how much urban in the 1930's before you make choices about who's getting what level of services.

I'll look into that this week.

Rice is grown in flooded paddy fields and its hard to manuever farming equipment around in the thick fertile mud.
I'm sure its possible but it would be quite expensive.

Talking of which, how do natrual resources (including crops) and trade agreements affects our economic model?

French Placeholder (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10158227&postcount=806) updated.

It is definitely possible to develop and build rice harvesters and combines. In addition, China also is a major producer of wheat. Even if rice combines can't be deployed for a few years, I can build wheat combines for China's wheat crops.
All you're doing is showing pictures. Pictures taken in arid climates, at that - not at all like the rice-growing areas in China. I don't consider this proof.

All you're doing is showing pictures. Pictures taken in arid climates, at that - not at all like the rise-growing areas in China. I don't consider this proof.

This is silly, but...

Harvesting

When the rice plant is mature, a combine harvester is used to gather the rice crop, thresh and separate the grain from the stalks. The harvester has special rice tyres, which are used especially for the heavy, wet soils of the rice field.


Rice Harvester
With well over half a million acres of rice growing in the Golden State, rice harvesters are a common sight in Northern California during the fall.

In any case, why do we care so much? If Sharina wants to buy harvesters, he can buy them for China's wheat.

This is silly, but...

In any case, why do we care so much? If Sharina wants to buy harvesters, he can buy them for China's wheat.
One quote is from a discussion on Australian rice, and one from Californian rice.

You guys are giving me a freakin' headache. Is it really possible that the player running China doesn't even know that rice in China is grown by the inundation method? Harvesters works fine on dry land, but not in freakin' paddies or inundated terraces.

My god. Are you really that freakin' ignorant?

One quote is from a discussion on Australian rice, and one from Californian rice.

You guys are giving me a freakin' headache. Is it really possible that the player running China doesn't even know that rice in China is grown by the inundation method? Harvesters works fine on dry land, but not in freakin' paddies or inundated terraces.

My god. Are you really that freakin' ignorant?

No, I see exactly what you're saying, and i agree with you.

However, I don't think the Wheat is grown that way.

No, I see exactly what you're saying, and i agree with you.

However, I don't think the Wheat is grown that way.
Wheat isn't grown that way, it's true. And I was talking to Sharina about being ignorant, because he was talking about rice.

Wheat isn't nearly as important a crop in China. Especially now that Manchuria's seceded. Neither is millet.

This (http://www.askasia.org/frclasrm/lessplan/l000008.htm#w) describes how rice is grown in both California and Indonesia. Chinese rice growing is much more similar to the Indonesian system.

I really resent having to tell Sharina this. It's his responsibility to do this research, not mine.

To end this arguement here is a set of maps showing modern day (can't have changed that much) areas of crop cultivation.
http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/LUC/ChinaFood/data/maps/crops/all_m.htm
(The darker the colour the more of that crop grown in those locations)

As you can see from the maps the main food crops that are grown in what is now called 'mainland china' is rice, there is some wheat and maize but most of it is rice (see map covered in dark red).

Now as you can see from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_field that rice in east Asia and China is mostly grown in paddies, these are fields flooded with water to about 15cm depth.
EDIT: Vas' link above also supports this.

That is the facts. Now my thoughts are that if Sharina wants to introduce mechanization to rice farming in China he has two options.

1. Get rid of the paddy fields and grow rice 'dry'. This almost certainly not a good idea as paddies are an essential part of rural life, not to mention local ecosystems and any attempt to replace them with a different method would be met with huge resistance and would later be viewed as a major blunder on the government's part.

2. Build specialized machinery that is capable of operating in the paddy fields. Though the machinery does exist, the only examples of it that I have ever seen have been 21st century kit. Therefore doing this is definatley not impossible but it is going to be quite expensive.

This is probably one of those major government desicions that have large reprecussions.
The second choice is probably the best by a long way, though personally I would magically make up a third choice and hold off rice farming mechanization till the equipment is cheaper to make.

I have seen combine harvesters work rice paddies and bogs on Modern Marvels. I've seen the rice harvesters use oversized tires to move through the mud and slog.

There's other ways to mass produce rice from paddies. Plant them, flood the paddies with water, then drain the paddies and send in the mechanized harvesters.

http://imperial.park.org/Japan/Public/Yumehaku/kids/kids_file/inekari_e.html

http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=15217&t=2

(This hints at mechanization harvest of rice and wheat in China, but unfortunately you have to either buy the article or get a password to access the rest of it online)

------------------------------------

What I've been able to come up with is that it is possible to harvest rice in China using mechanization. There are several possibilities how to do this.

One possibility is... The rice paddies are flooded with ½ inch of water. The soil within the paddy is then churned with either a rototiller or other type of heavy machinery that breaks up the compacted clay so that the rice can take root and grow. After the soil has been loosened, fertilizer is then applied to the fields. The rice seeds are then aerially scattered across the fields by plane. The seeds sink to the bottom and germinate. The water level of the field is then raised as the rice crop begins to grow. Pesticides and herbicides are applied post-emergent to control mildew and "red rice" (a weed that is morphologically similar to the rice crop). The crop’s growth period lasts between 90-115 days. Once the crop is mature, the water is drained from the paddies. When the grain reaches 12 % humidity, combine harvesters are then brought in to harvest the crop. After harvesting, the chaff is burned along with the rest of the rice plant and then the paddy is ready for another crop. Each rice paddy is usually planted two to three times per year with a rotation of stages of production throughout the fields. This allows the equipment to be used most efficiently.

Second possibility... adapt dry rice harvesting combines and machinery to wet rice paddies. The conversion cannot be that difficult if you incorporate oversized tires to roll through mud. I saw this thing on Modern Marvels, so this is definitely possible.

Third possibility... Ato-Sara's suggestion of converting all my rice to dry rice paddies. However, I'm not sure how much money and capital it will take to do this.

--------------------------

I've been looking at Google.com with several "Search" terms like "Rice Harvester" or the like. Thats how I do my research, looking it up on Google.

That aside, I'm trying to figure out how to eliminate the waste, cost, and inefficiencies of subsistence farming. Then that will help more Chinese to stay in towns, suburbs, and cities to become educated and do more mercantile and consumer jobs and economy like the USA does.

I'm not saying or trying to do this overnight or in just 1 - 5 years. I want to set the goal of mechanization of Chinese farming by 1950 or so.

Something to consider....less than 5% of the US population works in agriculture at this time, and as early as the 1940s it was down to 20% with full mechanization. Roughly 70% of the Chinese population is still in agriculture at this point, maybe 60%.... that is a LOT of jobs that will have to be found if you fully mechanize quickly.

This will be a huge problem if hurried. The only example roughly comparable is Stalinist forced industralization during the 20s and 30s and 40s, and that was accomplished at horrific cost. The US did it over a period of roughly 50 years between 1890 and 1940 as it moved from tech level 4 to tech level 6, but started at a much higher percentage of non agricultural workers (less than 50%)

At best, China will have been able to mechanize part of its agriculture by now, but a problem China has is that the overwhelming majority of its agricultural land is either held in common by villages, or is held in small plots. This kind of farming does not work for mechanization because the cost of the machinary only justifies mechanization if the profits outweight the expense of purchasing and operating the machinery.

We are talking about either collectivization (Soviet model) or large scale Agribusiness (US model, even a family farm is a multimillion dollar enterprise these days.. the ones that survive).

The Reds are going to want Collective fams, the Old upper classes are going to want Agribusinesses, and the average peasant is going to want a bigger plot of land of his own.

A touchy problem any way you look at it.

However, the US model does seem to be more efficient and far more productive... the Soviets stopped being able to feed themselves in the early 1970s

Incidently, mechanized rice farming is very common in the Galveston area of Texas (where I grew up) and in the Sacremento area of California (which I drive past about a half dozen times a year) and has been for about 40 years.

Something to consider....less than 5% of the US population works in agriculture at this time, and as early as the 1940s it was down to 20% with full mechanization. Roughly 70% of the Chinese population is still in agriculture at this point, maybe 60%.... that is a LOT of jobs that will have to be found if you fully mechanize quickly.

This will be a huge problem if hurried. The only example roughly comparable is Stalinist forced industralization during the 20s and 30s and 40s, and that was accomplished at horrific cost. The US did it over a period of roughly 50 years between 1890 and 1940 as it moved from tech level 4 to tech level 6, but started at a much higher percentage of non agricultural workers (less than 50%)

At best, China will have been able to mechanize part of its agriculture by now, but a problem China has is that the overwhelming majority of its agricultural land is either held in common by villages, or is held in small plots. This kind of farming does not work for mechanization because the cost of the machinary only justifies mechanization if the profits outweight the expense of purchasing and operating the machinery.

We are talking about either collectivization (Soviet model) or large scale Agribusiness (US model, even a family farm is a multimillion dollar enterprise these days.. the ones that survive).

The Reds are going to want Collective fams, the Old upper classes are going to want Agribusinesses, and the average peasant is going to want a bigger plot of land of his own.

A touchy problem any way you look at it.

However, the US model does seem to be more efficient and far more productive... the Soviets stopped being able to feed themselves in the early 1970s

Incidently, mechanized rice farming is very common in the Galveston area of Texas (where I grew up) and in the Sacremento area of California (which I drive past about a half dozen times a year) and has been for about 40 years.

I don't plan on hurrying mechanization overnight or in 5 years. I plan on having half of my farms mechanized by 1950 - 1955, then the rest by 1970 or so.

Is that a reasonable timeframe?

Also, could the US work together with China in the fields of mechanization in this timeline, seeing that China is now democratic and is somewhat veering away from the Pact camp?

I have seen combine harvesters work rice paddies and bogs on Modern Marvels. I've seen the rice harvesters use oversized tires to move through the mud and slog.

There's other ways to mass produce rice from paddies. Plant them, flood the paddies with water, then drain the paddies and send in the mechanized harvesters.

http://imperial.park.org/Japan/Public/Yumehaku/kids/kids_file/inekari_e.html

http://asae.frymulti.com/abstract.asp?aid=15217&t=2

(This hints at mechanization harvest of rice and wheat in China, but unfortunately you have to either buy the article or get a password to access the rest of it online)


These examples of machinery capable of havesting rice from paddies are all modern equipment. Getting it in the 1940s is going to be very expensive.


------------------------------------

What I've been able to come up with is that it is possible to harvest rice in China using mechanization. There are several possibilities how to do this.

One possibility is... The rice paddies are flooded with ½ inch of water. The soil within the paddy is then churned with either a rototiller or other type of heavy machinery that breaks up the compacted clay so that the rice can take root and grow. After the soil has been loosened, fertilizer is then applied to the fields. The rice seeds are then aerially scattered across the fields by plane. The seeds sink to the bottom and germinate. The water level of the field is then raised as the rice crop begins to grow. Pesticides and herbicides are applied post-emergent to control mildew and "red rice" (a weed that is morphologically similar to the rice crop). The crop’s growth period lasts between 90-115 days. Once the crop is mature, the water is drained from the paddies. When the grain reaches 12 % humidity, combine harvesters are then brought in to harvest the crop. After harvesting, the chaff is burned along with the rest of the rice plant and then the paddy is ready for another crop. Each rice paddy is usually planted two to three times per year with a rotation of stages of production throughout the fields. This allows the equipment to be used most efficiently.


This is good except for one point, the machinery is going to be expensive.


Second possibility... adapt dry rice harvesting combines and machinery to wet rice paddies. The conversion cannot be that difficult if you incorporate oversized tires to roll through mud. I saw this thing on Modern Marvels, so this is definitely possible.


The equipment you saw will have been modern, therefore doing this in the 1940's is going to be expensive. Although it will be less expensive than making brand new equipment for the job (will also be less effecient).


Third possibility... Ato-Sara's suggestion of converting all my rice to dry rice paddies. However, I'm not sure how much money and capital it will take to do this.


I implore you, whatever you do, no matter how much it costs, DO NOT DO THIS. Not only would it be be bad for the enviroment it would also completely alienate your governement from the people who work the farms.
I might go as far as to say that doing this option would ruin any chances of mecahnization being a sucess in rural China for a long time.

If anyone has populations for the various parts of my Empire, eg. East Africa, Sudan, West Africa, Singapore etc. I'd be grateful for them, I may wish to begin some small social spending on them.

If anyone has populations for the various parts of my Empire, eg. East Africa, Sudan, West Africa, Singapore etc. I'd be grateful for them, I may wish to begin some small social spending on them.
Ah, yes, you have a point. I didn't bother doing that originally because my historical population figures are all listed by the territories of the modern countries, even if they weren't countries at the time. That made African populations particularly obnoxious to research (French West Africa = Chad + Mauretania + Mali + Senegal . . . you get the idea). But I'll work on it.

Thanks VP. I really appreciated it. It's just so that I can budget for some social support for my subjects abroad, to keep them happy until I can set them up on the road to controlled independence.

I'd normally do it myself but 'tis the season to have wierd friends and family round to dinner which limits my leisure time!

Oh and I expect to get a new version of the map up by the end of today.

Snip.
I'm designating Ato-Sara as E20's East Asian Agricultural Go-To Guy. Those maps were way cool.

1937 Cut Government Spending

Points-24 Base Factory points(+6 from total growth), 27 trade
42 points to spend

5.75 points-maintenance
6 points- Lv 4 welfare
9 points-3 shipping units
4 garrisons(Iceland, Malmoe, German Border, Karlskrona)-12 points
4 fortifications(same cities.)-8 points

I hav ejust found what could possibly be THE MOST USEFUL SITE for E20 info. The site below will give population information on every country for almost every year since 1900 (and beyond). Just click on your continent and then find your country and click on the "of teh whole country" link.

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populframe.html

EDIT: Except of course that it doesn't include our E20 changes but it should still be pretty good.

These examples of machinery capable of havesting rice from paddies are all modern equipment. Getting it in the 1940s is going to be very expensive.

I have no problem with this. As I've said, I don't plan on doing all this overnight. Probably 40% - 50% mechanization by 1950, then 80% - 100% mechanization by 1970. Ample time to fund the research and development of farming and rice harvesting machinery. In this timeline in China there's more pressing demand for mechanization than in RL because of the earlier industrialization of China.

Besides, I can put some "points" into this effort once I finish my factories and rebuilding.

I implore you, whatever you do, no matter how much it costs, DO NOT DO THIS. Not only would it be be bad for the enviroment it would also completely alienate your governement from the people who work the farms.
I might go as far as to say that doing this option would ruin any chances of mecahnization being a sucess in rural China for a long time.

Point taken. This idea of dry rice is therefore discarded. I will not be using this method. Thanks for the warning about that way of approach, Ato-Sara. :)

British Empire populations:

Sudan: 5945,6
Rhodesia: 1335,0
Nigeria: 20476,8
Tanzania: 5432,5
Sierra Leone: 1822,0
Gold Coast: 3489,0
Gambia: 215,0
Somaliland: 1021,6
CAR: 833,9
Cameroon: 2379,5
Chad: 1432,6
Congo: 10066,8
Jamaica: 1038,6
British Guiana: 335,0
Honduras: 962,7
Oman: 375,0
Cyprus: 372,8
Malta: 262,2
Gibralter: 20,7
Brunei: 34,0

TOTAL: 57.4413 million

So around 58 million if I include all the smaller colonies (Aden etc. and the Pacific Islands, and a bit to cover extra from a less serious flu epidemic).

New British economy stuff (1937)

Population: 45m (1936), a normal economy, 2% growth, yields 132 points (including 2 from airlines, 30 from shipping) Plus 8 points FROM Argentina as loan repayments. TOTAL = 140 points.

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

Total: 56 points (a few minor cutbacks made)

BUILDS

3x Mosquito Fighter-Bombers (@3 points each) = 9 points

Total: 9 points

Plus pre-paid construction:
4 Tech 6 Battleships attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (16" guns) 2 in 1938 1 in 1939 1 in 1940 (Similar to Temeraire/Lion Class), to be known as HMS Lion, Temeraire, Conqueror and Thunder
1 Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, (18" guns), ready 1941 (No relevant class) To be known as HMS Vanguard

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 22.5 points on level IV welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

3 points per 10 million (EMPIRE)= 17.5 points on level III welfare

Total: 40 points

RESEARCH

Anglo-American Nuclear Research (3 points)
The Anglo-American jet engine which has already been invested in (Already paid for)

Total: 2 points

FOREIGN AID

26 points to India
7 points to Korea

Total: 32 points

TOTAL=140 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populframe.html

Heh. I've been using that site for at least three weeks.

New British economy stuff (1937)

Population: 45m (1936), a normal economy, 2% growth, yields 132 points (including 2 from airlines, 30 from shipping) Plus 8 points FROM Argentina as loan repayments. TOTAL = 140 points.

It'd be good to know how much of your production comes from the British Isles, and how much from elsewhere in the Empire (you've exceeded your productivity cap by 10 points if you were just going by Britain). But I suppose it can wait for population data.

Thanks for finding that site, by the way, it's more detailed than the one I've been using, frankly. Though of course we must caution that some countries' populations are going to be a little different in E20 - not to mention that there are some countries in E20 that don't exist in RL, and vice versa of course.

from the first page... Britian gets 32 points a year from its overseas territories including rubber, oil, and various other raw materials and commodities like coffee.

These aren't from factories so much as the sheer volume of what they export and the value.

France, Italy, Japan and the Union also get points in this way, as does the US.
(some of the US and Union points are from sources that are part of their national territory but really more like economic colonies)

I have an idea how to apply the rice harvesting research and development, as well as applying it to China's farming sector.

I propose that the whole effort costs 150 - 200 "points" total. China can spend 5 - 6 points annually on this, which means it will take between 30 - 40 years to complete. If there is a breakthrough or whatever like from genius researchers or something, reduce the point total by 10 points or whatever.

How does that sound?

You are really talking about the Green Revolution, which occured in the 1950s and had a huge impact for the good in agricultural productivity world wide. This is a tech level 7 development tied in with advances in genetic science and improvements in techniques, fertilizer and irrigation methods.

However, based on the fact that China has a more industralized economy, I would say that the Chinese birthrate should marketedly decline at this point, as would the Colombian, Venezuelean and Korean birthrates.

Industralization leads to a drop because you need lots of kids for farm work, while industrial workers find too many children an economic liability.

In addition, migration to Colombia will actually enable it to keep its historic population, as Central American immigrants, as well as immigrants from Peru and Ecuador and even Brazil and the Caribbean nations will find Colombia an attractive place to move to because of common language, culture and a relative high number of jobs.

You are really talking about the Green Revolution, which occured in the 1950s and had a huge impact for the good in agricultural productivity world wide. This is a tech level 7 development tied in with advances in genetic science and improvements in techniques, fertilizer and irrigation methods.

However, based on the fact that China has a more industralized economy, I would say that the Chinese birthrate should marketedly decline at this point, as would the Colombian, Venezuelean and Korean birthrates.

Industralization leads to a drop because you need lots of kids for farm work, while industrial workers find too many children an economic liability.

In addition, migration to Colombia will actually enable it to keep its historic population, as Central American immigrants, as well as immigrants from Peru and Ecuador and even Brazil and the Caribbean nations will find Colombia an attractive place to move to because of common language, culture and a relative high number of jobs.

How would you suggest that I do this agricultural revolution in terms of points and gameplay? Should I wait until Tech Level 7 to start this, or can I start research + development of rice harvesting machinery now (Tech Level 6) then mass produce them by Tech Level 7?

I would like to know as I have a lot of modernization ideas for China that I'd like to implement, like huge apartment buildings, more subways and mass transit in Chinese cities, add commuter rails, build more schools and hospitals, build more dams, introduce more hydroelectric power, and so on.

France has given you 10 points that you haven't factored in yet... may I suggest that you use them to start these projects?

Alternately, 5 fortifications wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Revised Korean Build-
National Effort- 10 points, plus 17 extra from Union and 7 from UK

IC:

1937-

devotion of 15 points (8 donated (Union), 7 domestic) to support for basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, plus to back public universities and social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
2 points for upkeep of ground forces
5 points for a factory (to be done in 13/14.4 turns, represents KWP Mutual Aid Fund beginning microloans for small businesses (2 Union pts), and beginnings of government-private sector cooperation (3 domestic pts))
2 Points to go to Nationalist China for Social Aid

Military-

3 points from UK to cover a Mosquito Fighter-Bomber
4 points for 2 pilots (UK trained)
3 points (KWP Fundraising and Korean Air Force spending) for another Mosquito


We are looking for contractors to provide us industrial aid and investment.[/QUOTE]

I'm designating Ato-Sara as E20's East Asian Agricultural Go-To Guy. Those maps were way cool.

Eh, thanks. I'll go and find some maps of the other EA countries.

France has given you 10 points that you haven't factored in yet... may I suggest that you use them to start these projects?

Alternately, 5 fortifications wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Hmm. I hadn't realized that France gave me 10 points for 1937. However, I need GB's opinion on my proposals before I continue. Also wasn't it written in the peace treaty with Japan that I can't build fortifications? Or am I thinking of coastal artillery?

Depending on how it goes, I'll either use 6 of these points for another repaired factory, and use the 4 for more social services, or 6 points for factory and 4 points for Rice Mechanization Project (or whatever its gonna be called- the whole research, development, and implementation process between 1937 and 1970)

no rice mechanization until you reach tech level 6 basically, which is a couple of years from now (figure about 1940 unless your industry gets trashed again)

On that topic; when will I reach level 6?

no rice mechanization until you reach tech level 6 basically, which is a couple of years from now (figure about 1940 unless your industry gets trashed again)

In this case...

1937 China Build (REVISED)

Chinese economy (start of year):
76 points industry
14 points commerce
2 from Korea
10 from France
National Effort for 168 points

Chinese military (Start of year):

Tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 3x infantry corps, 3x anti-tank unit 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline

Tech level 5 forces
13 x 3 point garrison units, 1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units

Upkeep: 17.5 points.

Domestic spending:
Level II social services for 78 points.
Level I social services for 14 points.
Fix 8 factories for 48 points.

Military spending
Upkeep: 17.5 points
Upgrade 13 garrisons to tech level 6 for 19.5 points

Military-end of year:

Tech level 6 forces
8 x mechanized corps, 3x infantry corps, 13x garrison unit, 3x anti-tank unit, 9 x 2 point flak units, 5 DW520 fighter units, 2 bomber units (two-engined), 7 pilots, 1 international airline, 1 national airline

Tech level 5 forces
1 light ship (40 torpedo boats)
Other forces
12 shipping units

Upkeep: 13.75 points.

Economy-end of year
96 points industry
14 points commerce

---------------------------------

Seeing that I can't do mechanization, I figured I'd shift my spending around a little bit. I sacrificed the 1 infantry unit, and skimmed a little off Level II social spending (change it into Level I for a few million more Chinese) then add in the 10 points from France so that I could rebuild 2 factories for 12 points.

I'm not sure if this is correct or not. Could someone double check this for me? Thanks!

Also, how many more factories do I need to rebuild before its 100% complete? So far I have lost track. :(

National Effort for 168 points

Should be 178.


Military-end of year:
(snip)
Upkeep: 13.75 points.

Should be 14.25 (17.5-13*.25)

Economy-end of year
96 points industry
14 points commerce

Should be 92 points industry. (76+16)

Other than that, it's fine. China started out with 25 damaged factories, as of the end of 1935. You fixed 8 this year, and 13 in '36, so only 4 factories are still damaged.

1937 Cut Government Spending

Points-24 Base Factory points(+6 from total growth), 27 trade
42 points to spend

5.75 points-maintenance
6 points- Lv 4 welfare
9 points-3 shipping units
4 garrisons(Iceland, Malmoe, German Border, Karlskrona)-12 points
4 fortifications(same cities.)-8 points
You're missing 1.25 points.

Good God. You would think that 500 points would be enough.

Good God. You would think that 500 points would be enough.
You'd think that, but I've already spent all those. I may need more in case the situation in the MEU gets much worse.

You'd think that, but I've already spent all those. I may need more in case the situation in the MEU gets much worse.

In other words... "World Domination" with all that oil. ;)

Ouch. Now that's uncharitable. Not that I don't deserve it.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/TrotskySlayingtheDragon1918.jpg

Trotsky to the rescue.

MEU economy is change to wartime economy do the the theat of civil war, as for points...unknown...I have to factor what regions decide to join the rebellion or stay...so that may effect my point output.

the United States quietly informs its allies that it too is preparing to declare a state of emergency and declare national effort.....

the United States quietly informs its allies that it too is preparing to declare a state of emergency and declare national effort.....
The Union's swift response (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10167517&postcount=471) to something we have no official knowledge of.

Ouch. Now that's uncharitable. Not that I don't deserve it.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c6/hrstrovokia/TrotskySlayingtheDragon1918.jpg

Trotsky to the rescue.

Heh, nice cartoon. ;)

It's from 1918, back when Trotsky was equal in authority to Lenin, and the serpent is labelled "Counter-revolution." And it ironically follows the conventions of an icon for St. George, as well, the patron saint of Russia.

Redone

The 1937 builds, MEU is on normal spending mode which means we get 22 points plus 40 points from the Soviets, and 10 points from cargo shipping plus 1 point from the airlines, so its 73 points in this turn alone.

27 points for maintaining the arm forces, just leaving 46 for Government Projects
3 mechanized corps for 12 point
1 Horse cavalry corps for two points
1 Naval Pilot for 2 points
1-dive bombers (JU-87) for two points
1 Pilot for 2 points
2 Alpine corps for six points
8 militia corps for 8 points( Soviet aid)

20 points for Level III State Education and Welfare Programs

On that topic; when will I reach level 6?

Just a reminder...

Also, does anyone have a map of railroads in India in 1940? I can only find maps of railroads in India now, and that doesn't include Paksitan and Bangladesh.

Also, does anyone have a map of railroads in India in 1940? I can only find maps of railroads in India now, and that doesn't include Paksitan and Bangladesh.

The world in flames map we have been using has railroads for 1941 listed. Plus there is one running from Lahore to Kabual up to Samarkand in the Union.

the United States quietly informs its allies that it too is preparing to declare a state of emergency and declare national effort.....

Britain acknoledges this fact but maintains it's current industrial status not wishing to get industry riled up over a war which may not yet escalate.

Australian Builds for 1937: 25 pts to spend

Land Maintenence:
3 Tech 6 Motorized Infantry Corps at .25 pts each = .75pts
4 Tech 5 Garrison Units at .25 pts each = 1 pt
3 pilots at .25 pts each = .75 pts
2 Tech 6 Fighters (Hurricanes) at .5 pts each = 1 pt
1 Naval Air Unit (B24-4 engine) = 2 pts

Naval Maintenence:
2 Tech 6 Battlecruisers at .5 pts each = 1 pt

Upgrades to Navy from Tech 5 to Tech 6:
2 Heavy Cruisers at 1 pt each = 2 pts
4 Light Cruisers at .5 pts each = 2 pts
1 Sub Unit = 3 pts
2 Destroyer Units at 4 pts each = 8 pts

Civil Spending:
Level III Safety Net for population of 6.5 million = 3 pts

Total Spent = 24.5 pts

Australia, though wary of events in the MEU, will maintain standard economy for 1937. However, the military remains on alert from the trouble in China, and Prime Minister Scullin has managed to shove a naval spending bill through Parliament for self-defense.

Danard has authorized me to do Bolivia's builds, so...

Bolivian Build-1937
Military
2 tech level 5 garrison units

Economy-4 points

Upgrade 2 garrison units to tech level 6-3 points
Begin work on 1 fortification-1 point (1/2 complete)

1938:2 Shipping complete +2
Garrison Unit construction put on hold at (1.5/3) points progress
Factory construction put on hold at (15/36) points progress

1 maintenance

1 social programs

6 shipping Construction

1 for special police unit construction (Militia)

3 points to be lent to the MEU
-------------------------------------------
1939: End of National Effort and Cut Spending
4/2=2 points from factories
4 points from shipping (unaffected by government spending I persume)

Factory construction progress: 15/36 --> 30/72

1 maintenence

1 on social programs

3 on shipping

1 on factory construction (31/72)
------------------------------------------------

On that topic; when will I reach level 6?

Please?

Please?

I will be reviewing economics today, and tech levels

I will be reviewing economics today, and tech levels

Thank ye kindly.

I would like to propose a slight change in the rules for building factories. Currently, the factory-building system seems to work pretty well, except that it's unclear how building changes if you change economic modes. For instance, imagine that Argentina begins a factory, spending 36 of the 72 points needed. Then I go on National Effort. Is the factory finished?

Here's my proposal: Factories cost 72 points, and add 2 points to your industrial capacity (or 4 points during national effort, 6 points during wartime spending, 1 point during cut government spending). However, national effort makes your investment count double, and wartime economy makes points spent on factories count triple.

It's not a big change really, but it does help simplify things.

Personally, I think it'd be better if we abandoned the "factory" concept altogether in favor of a more abstract "industrial output rating." That way, increasing your rating by 1 point would take at least one year and cost

Reduced Spending - 72 points
Normal Spending - 36 points
National Effort - 18 points
War Footing - 6 points

If you'd spent 18 points on increasing your industrial output at Normal Spending and then switched to National Effort, you'd just double what you had before and add one.

I tried to get this adopted before, but for some reason it was a non-starter. It seems easier and more sensible to me than talking about "factories," though.

The only real hitch is how it would pan out in war, but that probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement.

First of all, why so cheap during wartime? At that price, it's almost an incentive to go to war just to buy the really cheap industry. If we do use this plan, I would be in favor of 1 point of industry costing 12 points during war. Also, I'm against having industry cost double during reduced spending.

Second, I'm not sure how much sense your plan makes to me. If you spend 18 points during peacetime, then you're halfway to adding a point. But then you go to national effort, and that halfway becomes a full point without any extra investment? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your plan, but suppose I spend 35 points during normal spending. In other words, I'm really close to adding an extra point. Then I go to reduced spending, and my investment suddenly becomes only halfway to adding an extra point. Why?

Production (the complex model)
This takes into account that some nations produce resources but don’t have industry, and some nations have a lot of industry, but must import resources to reach their full capability. Keep in mind, right about this point in history, even the US and Soviet Union no longer were completely self sufficient and imported substantial amounts of resources.

Factories produce 1 point a year under reduced spending, 2 points a year during peacetime spending, 4 points a year during National Effort, and 6 points a year during wartime. In Total War situations they produce 9 points year. National economies can shift back and forth between Reduced Spending, Peacetime and National Effort, but can only go to Wartime the start of the second full year of war, and Total War after the third full year of War. Factory production cannot exceed the total number of resources available to the country plus whatever points are available through commerce, trade agreements and colonies.

Resources include things like oil, rubber, minerals and agricultural products. Excess resources are sold on the world market or allocated specifically to a nation through trade agreements or colonial policy. Excess resources are simply considered to be commerce points at the rate of 5 resource points to 1 commerce point.

The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) is 2 points per 1 million people at tech level 5, 3 points per 1 million at tech level 6, and 4 points per million at tech level 7. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. However, during wartime and total war, this can be expanded to up to 3 points per million and 4 points per million. However, there is a social cost that the referees will examine (and is situational).

Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market. At tech level 5 and 6, each shipping unit represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 1 commerce point. At tech level 7, shipping represents 500,000 tons of shipping and is worth 2 commerce points. However, you will have to upgrade your shipping units or purchase new ones upon reaching tech level 7 to get this bonus.
Tech level 7 nations can get up to 60 points a year from shipping while Tech level 4, 5 and 6 nations can only get up to 30 points a year. Tech level 3 or less nations cannot build merchant shipping units at this point, although they can buy them from other nations.

Airlines at tech level 5 and 6 really don’t have a significant air freight capability, but do increase the efficiency of commerce internally for National airlines (worth 2 commerce points) and internationally for an International Airline (worth 2 commerce points). Building airlines also represents the airports constructed Nations are only allowed one of each at tech level 5 and 6.

At tech level 7, airlines actually start having significant air freight capability, and much larger passenger capability. They will cost more, which will cover the costs of the airports and safety systems placed. To gain the tech level 7 bonus for air commerce, you must spend 1 point for every 10 million people (represents the airports and air traffic control systems), plus purchase the planes and pilots. However, each airline is worth 1 commerce point and multiple airlines are allowed up to 1 airline per 10 million people.

However, the maximum amount of commerce points allowed per country cannot be more than 1 point per 1 million people. There is after all a limit to how big international trade can get.


Example
USA 1938
The United States has a population of 140 million (approx) including its possessions (except the Philippines). It is tech level 6 and has 107 factories and 400 resource points available. The maximum size of the US internal economy is 420 points. During National Effort it can produce up to 400 points with the resources it has, but extra expansion will require substantial commerce and trade agreements. In addition, the US has 30 shipping units and 2 airline units, providing it with 34 commerce points plus whatever excess it has in resource points.

The US chooses to remain at Normal Spending for 1938. This gives it 214 production points, leaving 206 resource points extra, plus 34 commerce points for shipping and airlines. 10 of those resource points go to Japan each year (through trade agreements), leaving it with 39 commerce points for resources plus the 34 commerce points for shipping and airlines.

Total US production is therefore 287 points.

I am currently worker on the opposite approach to this, the simple model.

Wow. I think my head just exploded.

Can we see the simple model?

Wow. I think my head just exploded.

Can we see the simple model?

I second that.

By the way, GB should become the next RL Alan Greenspan. The Economic Genius. ;)

Simple Model
Base Production (industrial and economic value)

Capitalist Peacetime x 1. 5 growth 4%
Socialist Peacetime x 1 growth 2%

Capitalist Budget cuts x 1/2 growth 5%
Socialist Budget cuts x 1 / 2 growth 2%

Capitalist National Effort x 2 growth 2%
Socialist National Effort x 2, growth 1%

Wartime (not available until second year of war) x 2, growth 2% (for Socialist and Capitalist), penalty of no growth in peacetime for every year of wartime spending

Total War (not available until third year of war) x 3, no growth, -1% growth for duration and twice the penalty for wartime growth afterwards.

Special
Commerce (shipping and air transportation as before, with the tech level 7 rules) is added to base production
Beginning tech level 7 shipping units must pay maintanence (those rules will be added)

Deficit spending -- Capitalist countries may borrow up to 1/4 of their budget (in other words, their budget plus another 25%). This will require the player to keep track of his national debt. Interest is 5% (governments get the best rates). Socialist countries cannot deficit spend.

Keep in mind at this point there are no pure capitalist economies left, even the Americans and British have substantial regulation to prevent excessive inflation or Recession, plus labor pressure has forced reform. There are also no pure communist economies at the moment either. Even the Union has substantial private enterprise at the regional and local level. But enough differences exist at this point for this model to work.

This is based on historical information and remember, most of the Communist and Socialist countries ended up switching to a form of the Capitalist model by the end of the 20th Century (except North Korea and Cuba... both among the poorest nations in the world)

Factories cost 72 points each, and can only be built during National Effort or wartime. (more expensive in other words)

I will audit to see which system you are using, but you must indicate which system you are using.

This model is less accurate but with the commerce rules does allow at least the basic simulation of international trade and the fact that some nations must import raw materials for their economy (nearly all by the end of the 20th Century)

GB, I'd like a summary of where China stands at the beginning of 1938 according to your new system. As far as I know, I have both Capitalists (Nationalists) and Communists in my government.

Also, I'm not sure how the resources will factor into my economy though.

I'm really confused. Can you explain some things?

1. In the complex model, how are resource points doled out?
2. Also in the complex model, do we need to buy resource points if we want to produce beyond domestic resource capacity? If so, how much do they cost?
3. In the complex model, you say that the maximum commerce points you can get is 1/million people. Argentina currently has 11 industry points and 27 commerce points. Does this mean that I would have to use the simple model?
4. What growth rates exist in the complex model? Can governments deficit spend in the complex model?
5. How does the simple model reflect the need to import resources?
6. Why the change from a maximum production of 2 points/1 million people at tech level 6 to 3 points/1 million people? Wouldn't it be simpler to keep things the same?
7. Why have tech level 7 shipping units pay maintenance? If they cost, say, .5 points maintenance, why not just say that they give 1.5 points/500,000 tons of shipping?
8. Why do socialist nations have no incentive to go on budget cuts mode?
9. Can you give an example of the simple system in action?

We use either the Simple Model or the Complex Model, but not both... Vas and you pick the one you would prefer (I am guessing the simple one).

Tech level 7 industry and shipping is far more capable than tech level 6 industry. This comes at a cost as well. It also forces nations to modernize and spend points to do so (upgrading factories)

Nations that don't modernize their industry get eclipsed by nations that do (Korean and Japanese shipyards replacing English shipyards as the largest builder of ships for example, Japan vs US in the 1970s.. lots of examples)

Capitalist economies are more efficient in spending available resources than Socialist economies are when those resources are not spent by the government. More private investment occurs, and greater consumer spending. Both are economic benefits that directly lead to economic growth.


An example later, I am typing this up during break at work.

Actually, I think the complex one may cause some problems with some players not understanding it. Even Middle Snu admitted he was overwhelmed by it. Therefore I think it may be better for everyone concerned if E20 were to adopt the simple system.

Also, are you going to incorporate resources into the simple system? I may want to have that done. It will make it more interesting and create some nice tension. For example, if the whole MEU thing were to happen in, say, 1960 when "Oil is God" in the Middle East... or if the US embargoes its steel to other nations, and so forth.

I think resource bonuses would be nice.

Ouch. Let's just not get into individual resources.

I would prefer that we adopt a single system. While I don't fully understand either the simple or the complex system, I'd rather just learn one and have it applied equally to everyone. Perhaps a hybrid of both?

Ouch. Let's just not get into individual resources.

I would prefer that we adopt a single system. While I don't fully understand either the simple or the complex system, I'd rather just learn one and have it applied equally to everyone. Perhaps a hybrid of both?

I will work on it some more this evening when I have some more time available

Ouch. Let's just not get into individual resources.

I would prefer that we adopt a single system. While I don't fully understand either the simple or the complex system, I'd rather just learn one and have it applied equally to everyone. Perhaps a hybrid of both?

Actually, what I had in mind were several major resources very much like in Civilization III and Civilization IV games.

We could adopt a simple resource system that only has maybe 10 or so resources max.

1. Oil
2. Uranium
3. Alumunium
4. Foodstuffs (Can be broad / general. Can be wheat, rice, corn, whatever)
5. Gemstones (Diamonds, rubies, emeralds, etc.)
6. Precious Metals (Gold, silver, platinum, titanium, etc.)
7. Iron
8. Coal
9. Lumber
10. Renewable Resources (hydroelectricty, solar power, wind power, etc.)

Get the general idea? This shouldn't be that complex to implement. For example, if we don't use resources, then it can pretty much end up like NS- if the MEU embargoes its oil to some nations, without this resource system these nations can just claim they build their stuff without MEU's oil.

Just going out on limb here.

Actually, what I had in mind were several major resources very much like in Civilization III and Civilization IV games.

they build their stuff without MEU's oil.Just going out on limb here.

I will think about it

Middle Snu's 10-point Economic Hybrid Proposal:

1. Resources are handled by Galveston Bay's Complex model. Resource points are handed out on a case-by-case basis and adjusted as necessary. (For instance, the MEU is going to gain a lot of resource points as oil becomes more important.)
2. Shortages of specific resources are handled on a case-by-case basis. For instance, if the MEU decides to embargo, then the effects of the embargo are decided by the Economy mods.
3. Limits on internal production are 2/million people for tech level 4, 5, and 6, and 4/million people for tech level 7.
4. Airlines are handled as in the complex model.
5. Shipping units are handled as in the complex model, except that tech level 7 shipping doesn't require upkeep.
6. There is no population-based limit on commerce.
7. Growth rates are handled as per the simple model.
8. If a country has fewer resource points than they need, they can purchase resource points on the open market at a rate of 3 resource points/industry point.
9. The concept of factories is abandoned. Instead, a Middle Snu/Vas method is adopted. Increasing industry by 1 point costs 36 points. Points spent on increasing industry are doubled during national effort, and tripled during wartime.
10. Overspending is handled by the complex model.

Yes, feel free to tear it to peices. I'm no mod, these are just my suggestions.

... I think I understand the complex model, except for one thing.
Resources, how do they work? How do we know how much and what we have in terms of resources? And thaen how many points do we get from our resources?

Middle Snu's 10-point Economic Hybrid Proposal:

1. Resources are handled by Galveston Bay's Complex model. Resource points are handed out on a case-by-case basis and adjusted as necessary. (For instance, the MEU is going to gain a lot of resource points as oil becomes more important.)
2. Shortages of specific resources are handled on a case-by-case basis. For instance, if the MEU decides to embargo, then the effects of the embargo are decided by the Economy mods.
3. Limits on internal production are 2/million people for tech level 4, 5, and 6, and 4/million people for tech level 7.
4. Airlines are handled as in the complex model.
5. Shipping units are handled as in the complex model, except that tech level 7 shipping doesn't require upkeep.
6. There is no population-based limit on commerce.
7. Growth rates are handled as per the simple model.
8. If a country has fewer resource points than they need, they can purchase resource points on the open market at a rate of 3 resource points/industry point.
9. The concept of factories is abandoned. Instead, a Middle Snu/Vas method is adopted. Increasing industry by 1 point costs 36 points. Points spent on increasing industry are doubled during national effort, and tripled during wartime.
10. Overspending is handled by the complex model.

Yes, feel free to tear it to peices. I'm no mod, these are just my suggestions.

I will fiddle with it some, but that seems like a good model to me. My only quibble is that we don't have anything at this point to show the economic advantages of capitalism versus the social advantages of socialism.

But then that doesn't become a critical issue until tech level 7 and 8. (Late Industrial and Post Industrial stages)

I will fiddle with it some, but that seems like a good model to me. My only quibble is that we don't have anything at this point to show the economic advantages of capitalism versus the social advantages of socialism.

But then that doesn't become a critical issue until tech level 7 and 8. (Late Industrial and Post Industrial stages)
I tend to agree with Middle Snu's suggestions, as well.

And I object to the use of philosophically-charged terms like "socialism" and "capitalism," and propose that they be replaced with the descriptive terms "command economy" and "market economy."

As it stands, for instance, the real differences between German Market Socialism and Keynesian Capitalism are pretty slight, and largely matters of terminology and legal technicality.

The "social advantages" of socialism are covered by welfare spending, even though that has only a vague game-effect. The "economic advantages" of unregulated capitalism do need to be modeled, however.

As long as we can work kleptocracies in there somehow.

I don't know. Seems to me that we need some other social advantage. As you pointed out, the USA has better social services than the Union.

I don't know. Seems to me that we need some other social advantage. As you pointed out, the USA has better social services than the Union.
In practice, the E20 US is more socialist than the E20 Union. It's theory where we differ.

In practice, the E20 US is more socialist than the E20 Union. It's theory where we differ.

Not to sure I agree.. the US has regulated capitalism, but the large corporations and stockholders control the means of production (the factories). I am under the assumption that the government owns the large factories in the Union. Am I mistaken?

Otherwise, Command Economy and Market Economy will serve, although in fairness, you guys call yourselves Socialists...

short of creating a wastage rate for various government types, I am not sure how to model kleptocracies, or other ineffencies

Without factories, there is no way to simulate rapid command economy industrialization. Which is kind of a problem.

Strategic warfare and war damage can be simulated another way, but industrialization is something that does cost points.

Suggestions?

Without factories, there is no way to simulate rapid command economy industrialization. Which is kind of a problem.

Strategic warfare and war damage can be simulated another way, but industrialization is something that does cost points.

Suggestions?

You could replace "Factories" with a new concept called "Industrial Index" or "Economic Index".

Either would definitely include factories, but also include domestic industries that are not necessarily "Factory". Examples of this include internal commerce, retail stores, farms, mines, textile mills, etc.

...although in fairness, you guys call yourselves Socialists...

See, the real difference is not that we call ourselves socialists. It's that we call you Kapitalizt swine-pigs.

I dunno...if the economic model gets any mroe complicated, I may consider leaving E20. We already had problems with adapting the current system, and I like the system we use now. I am AGAINST anything that makes it more complicated.

Base Income (industrial and economic value)
Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 4%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 6%
Command Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 / 2, growth 3%

Market Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 2%
Command Economy National Effort, Income doubled, growth 1%

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3, growth 2%, no penalty postwar

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), Income x 3.5, no growth, - 2% penalty postwar per year after the war for every year in effect.

Market and Command Total War (not available until third year of war) x 4, no growth, -1% growth for duration and –1% growth each year after the war for every year in effect.

Nations must indicate whether they are Command Economies or Market Economies, and what kind of government they have such as Dictatorship, Representative Democratic, Other (be specific).

Commerce
Commerce includes shipping, airlines (representing improved communications which speed up commerce and increase it), and any excess resources that are sold on the world market.

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce
Tech Level 5 – shipping units provide 1 point per unit per year, national and international airlines provide 2 points each. Maximum available is 34 points
Tech Level 6 – as above

Tech Level 7 – shipping units provide 2 points per unit per year (ships are bigger, more efficient, and the first container ships become available). Maximum bonus for shipping is 60 points a year. Airlines provide 1 point per unit and Jet airlines provide 2 points per unit (when they become available) In addition, any number of airlines can be built and operated. Upper limit for airlines is 10 points. Airlines cost 6 points, and Jet airlines cost 10 points. This covers also the expense of bigger airports and air traffic control systems.

Resources and Factories are dropped. You have your basic income which increases (or not) each year. However, income can be damaged due to damage to commerce, or war damage. War damage is treated just a repairing a damaged factory under the old system. 6 points to repair 1 point of income.

At Tech Level 7 you can also modernize your economy (more efficient factories, communications sytems, transportation systems etc). Cost is 1 point for every 10 points of income. Takes 1 year. Once modernized, income is increased by 1.5.

Your budget is Income + Commerce + whatever aid you get + whatever deficit spending or loans you get = Total Income

I take it Zeppelins are regular airlines?

Until I put jets on them... muahahaha!

Parthini']I take it Zeppelins are regular airlines?

Until I put jets on them... muahahaha!

a tech level 5 airline... by now unless forced, the airlines would have switched to Condor 4 engined aircraft (international) and JU52 3 engined aircraft (treat as 2 engine) for national airline. Both are safer and more reliable then Zeppelins, not to mention cheaper to operate.

Psssh! These zeppelins are run by Deutchlanders. Nothing can be safer!

But, I will consent. The age of Zeppelins has past :(

GB, I like your revision- makes more sense.

However, I have a question. Command Economy during Government Cuts is less benefical than during Normal Spending because both have same % growth but the Cuts halve your income.

Perhaps tweak it up to 3% natural growth for Command Economy during Government Cuts?

GB, I like your revision- makes more sense.

However, I have a question. Command Economy during Government Cuts is less benefical than during Normal Spending because both have same % growth but the Cuts halve your income.

Perhaps tweak it up to 3% natural growth for Command Economy during Government Cuts?

Command economies are less efficient at using spare capital. In Market economies that capital is plowed into the economy through private investment. However, I will tweak both

Would it be possible to switch from Market to Command at a moments notice, say a world war? Because the Union is kindof a Market economy, but when we go into a big war, it turns a lot more Command.

USA 1938
US Population (1935) 140 million, Representative Democracy, Market Economy
214 points base income
3 points debt repayment from Canada
8 points income from the Philippines
34 points from commerce
4% growth from last year + 8 points
increase by 10% for Rural Electrification 21 points
Total points 288 points

Military maintenance 99 points
National Safety net (level 5 spending)(unemployment insurance, food stamps, junior college system) 70 points
National Safety net for Philippines (level 2 spending) 2 points
10 points to Japan (represents US oil and steel exports to Japan)
10 points to Central America (NPC nations, for social service assistance)
191 total points

Under construction (already paid for)
2 Montana class battleships (Montana, Texas, available January 1937)
Panama Canal expansion (year 3 of 4)(opens January 1940) +10% bonus to Gran Colombia economy
Saint Lawrence Seaway project (year 3 of 4) (opens April 1940) + 15% bonus to US and Canadian economies
Intercoastal Waterway project (year 3 of 4)(opens April 1940)+10% bonus to US economy
5 Essex class carriers (year 2 of 2)(available January 1939)

97 New Construction points available
Television guided bombs and missiles research 1 points (very secret)(1 point remains)
Atomic energy research (powerplant applications) 2 points (very secret)(4 points remain)
Multi stage rocket research 3 points (5 more points needed)
3 Iowa class battleships (year 2 of 5) 18 points (18 more points needed)
1 Iowa class battleship (year 1 of 5) 12 points (paid for)
4 improved Essex class carriers (Year 1 of 2) 16 points (16 more points needed)
3 Midway class carriers (Year 1 of 3) 12 points (12 points each, 24 more points needed)
Superbomber (very long range) research 12 points (paid for, makes B36 and B35 Flying Wing possible)
2 points Foreign Humanitarian aid to the MEU
12 points aid to Algeria (infrastructure upgrade for oil production)
3 points aid to Korea (to spend as needed)
4 points aid to USEA (to spend as needed)



Bonuses based on actual increase in productivity that resulted from Intercoastal Waterway, and from St. Lawrence Seaway.

1937 US Military

US Navy
Carrier Aviation (maintenance 13 points including pilots)
9 tech level 6 fleet carriers: Lexington, Saratoga, Enterprise, Yorktown, Wasp, Hornet, Ranger, Bon Homme Richard, Essex, (all are 100 aircraft, protection 3, speed 6, range 6, Essex class has a protection of 4) 5 Corsairs, 2 Dauntless, 2 Avenger, 9 pilots
2 Corsairs, 5 Avenger torpedo bombers (Navy reserve) 7 Navy reserve carrier pilots

Surface force and other ships (maintenance 21 points)
2 tech level 6 Fast super battleships (Montana, Texas) (firepower 6, protection 12, speed 5, range 6)
6 tech level 6 Fast battleships: North Carolina, Washington, South Dakota, Alabama, South Dakota, Indiana, (firepower 5, protection 6, speed 5, range 6)
3 tech 6(modernized) (16 inch) Battleships: Colorado, Maryland, West Virginia (firepower 5, protection 6, speed 3, range 5)

Heavy cruisers
15 tech level 6 Heavy cruisers (all are firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6)
Chester, Pensacola, Salt Lake City, Houston, Northhampton, Chicago, Augusta, Quincy, Portland, Astoria, Tuscaloosa, Vincennes, Indianapolis, Newport News, Salem, Vincennes, Wichita, Baltimore

Light cruisers
6 Tech level 6 (modernized) Omaha class (firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6), Luzon, Mindanao, Paney, Cebu, Samar, Guam
5 tech level 6 Brooklyn class (firepower 1, protection 1, speed 7, range 6) Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Savannah, Nashville, Boise

Antiaircraft cruisers
12 tech level 6 Atlanta class (firepower 1, protection 1, speed 7, range 6), Atlanta, Juneau, San Pedro, San Juan, San Diego, San Antonio, San Pedro, Duluth, Galveston, Los Angeles, Hampton, Biloxi,

Destroyers
150 tech level 6 destroyer escorts, (15 light ships), 120 tech level 6 destroyers (8 light ships)

Submarines
80 tech level 6 submarines (8 submarine units)

Laid up in reserve (all on East Coast)
5 tech 6 (modernized)(14 inch) battleships Tennessee, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Pennsylvania ( firepower 4, protection 6, speed 3, and range 5)
4 tech level 6 (modernized) light carriers:, Theodore Roosevelt, William McKinley,
George Washington, Abraham Lincoln (4 x 55 aircraft, protection 1, speed 5, range 5, 4 x 55 aircraft, protection 1, speed 6, range 6)
9 Tech level 6 (modernized) Omaha class (firepower 1, protection 2, speed 6, range 6) Omaha, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Marblehead, Trenton, Detroit, Concord, Richmond, Memphis
2 amphibious fleets

Transport and shipping
2 amphibious fleets
2 transport units
3 liner units (released back to civilian service)
33 shipping units (15 million tons) commercial fleet, (includes some excess shipping to commerce limit)

US Landbased Naval Aviation (maintenance 18.25 points)
3 PBY, 3 B24 6 pilots plus 3 B24 (navy reserve), 3 pilots (navy reserve)

Marine Corps (maintenance 1 point)
1 Amphibious corps

US Army Air Force (includes reserves) ( 17 maintenance points including pilots)
2 heavy bomber unit (B17F), 1 heavy air transport unit (C54), 1 Air transport unit (DC3), 2 fighter units (P38), 4 fighter units (P47), 4 bomber units (2 B25, 2 B26), 16 pilots (2 in reserve)

US Air National Guard and Army Air Force Reserve (16 points including pilots)
2 heavy bomber units (B17F) 5 bomber units (3 B25, 2 B26), 5 fighter units (P47), 14 pilots

Regular Army (6.5 points)
4 mechanized corps (2 divisions each), 2 armored corps (2 divisions each), 2 amphibious corps (2 divisions each) 1 mountain corps (2 divisions), 1 airborne infantry corps (2 divisions) 3 motorized field artillery units, 3 coast artillery units, 3 flak units

National Guard and Reserve (15 points)
4 headquarters units, 12 mechanized corps (2 divisions each), 5 motorized corps (2 divisions each), 1 garrison unit (Manila), 3 field artillery units, 2 coast defense units (Manila, Pearl Harbor) 14 flak units (Pearl Harbor, Manila, 6 each coast), 4 fortifications (Truk, Manila, Panama, Oahu)

also 1 national airline, 1 international airline, plus 2 pilots (remain unmobilized at this time, but subject to mobilization to the Army if needed)

Total Maintenance 99 points

I like the new system. It's basically the old system, but simpler.

However, I do have two problems.
First, I think that taking factories out loses an essential part of the game. Why not just keep them?

Second, I notice that the US has a lot of special programs. (Rural electrification, the Panama Canal...) I'm of the opinion that these programs should either be dropped (not allowed) or standardized somehow. Otherwise, we're in the position where Galveston has a huge information advantage.

Also, I would rather add deficit spending back in. It's an interesting optional thing that could add a bit of flavor.

At some point we should assemble a final proposal, then put it to a vote. Rodenka has said that he's against a new system, and others probably feel the same. There's something to be said for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Darned forums and triple posts...

It occurs to me that we could do away with special programs altogether. Instead, something like Sharina's Economic Index for factories could be used and we could specify how we are investing the points.

I've noticed that New Dornalia is already doing this. As I remember, he invested 3 points in a factory, the points representing Union Micro-loans. Why not just use a mechanic we already have for special projects?

Darned forums and triple posts...

It occurs to me that we could do away with special programs altogether. Instead, something like Sharina's Economic Index for factories could be used and we could specify how we are investing the points.

I've noticed that New Dornalia is already doing this. As I remember, he invested 3 points in a factory, the points representing Union Micro-loans. Why not just use a mechanic we already have for special projects?

the Intercoastal Waterway, St. Lawrence Seaway and National Highway system were all government projects, very expensive government projects, that did actually result in sizeable economic growth in the US. Hence the need to account for them. Both the Seaway and the Intercoastal Waterway were direct results of the German UBoat campaign and the need for more security for US and Canadian coastal shipping and reduce the strain on railroads. As we have had that occur (2nd Great War), the US would see the need for them.

A Panama Canal big enough to handle supertankers also brings about sizeable benefits for Colombia, and also has to be accounted for as it essentially doubles the capacity of the Panama Canal. The need arose when the Union and Japan both built superbattleships, requiring the US to be able to build them too, and still get them through the Panama Canal.

As to the information advantage, its not anything that can't be offset by research by others .....

I like the new system. It's basically the old system, but simpler.

However, I do have two problems.
First, I think that taking factories out loses an essential part of the game. Why not just keep them?

Second, I notice that the US has a lot of special programs. (Rural electrification, the Panama Canal...) I'm of the opinion that these programs should either be dropped (not allowed) or standardized somehow. Otherwise, we're in the position where Galveston has a huge information advantage.

Also, I would rather add deficit spending back in. It's an interesting optional thing that could add a bit of flavor.

At some point we should assemble a final proposal, then put it to a vote. Rodenka has said that he's against a new system, and others probably feel the same. There's something to be said for "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."


Rural electrification is available to any tech level 6 nation and Deficit Spending is still an option, and can be added.

Megaprojects are case by case as the effect and costs vary. Present a proposed megaproject and I can generally figure out a point cost (such as the railroad project proposed for West Africa by France as an example, or setting up oil production facilities in the Sahara Desert for Algeria as another example).

The new system looks good, but I think taking away factories would just confuse all of us who just got used to the old system. Maybe we can phase them out?

In the meantime, anyone know the population of French West Africa? I'll do some of my own looking, but if anyone knows tell me. I'm planning on intiating level 1 or 2 social services for them.

Rural electrification is available to any tech level 6 nation and Deficit Spending is still an option, and can be added.

Megaprojects are case by case as the effect and costs vary. Present a proposed megaproject and I can generally figure out a point cost (such as the railroad project proposed for West Africa by France as an example, or setting up oil production facilities in the Sahara Desert for Algeria as another example).

In that case...

I would like to propose a possible Mega-Project for China.

I'd like to start construction of multiple hydroelectric dams similiar to the Three Gorges Dam. According to the CIA Factbook, China has the world's largest hydroelectric potential.

I would like to know how much it would cost to maximize China's hydroelectric potential- what I mean is that how many dams and how much would it cost to build up to 90% - 100% of use of China's hydropower potential?

Also, if this is possible, then how will this effect China in gameplay? All that new electricity would help, but how would it be applied? More industry points from increased electrification? Cheaper factories as electric-run machines will be used? Accelerate China's Tech Level development (cutting a few years off between Tech Level 6 and Tech Level 7) with plentiful electricity available for domestic use and science labs and such? Or what else?

Oh lordy lordy lordy, this seems complicated...

Also, will I have to re-do my 5 year plan (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10123790&postcount=684) (Which, as it turns out, is really a six year plan, but meh) in the new system, or can I just leave it as is and switch to the new system AFTER it's done? Because that plan took me about an hour to devise.

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce

Does this mean all the shipping unit that I have built is for nothing? and would they be availlable to me when I reach tech 5? when is that by the way?

Not to sure I agree.. the US has regulated capitalism, but the large corporations and stockholders control the means of production (the factories). I am under the assumption that the government owns the large factories in the Union. Am I mistaken?

Yes, you're mistaken. I don't know why everyone keeps assuming we have state ownership of everything - I've said time and again we don't. The "government," as such, is actually fairly weak. Certain critical infrastructures are nationalized (you know, like, roads), but otherwise most enterprises tend to be collectively owned by their workers, and venture capital is provided by state agencies instead of brokerage firms. It's a weird system, and I've never fully worked out the details, because I don't want to deal with quite that that level of micromanagement. I imagine it's not as "efficient" as a truly capitalist one, but I imagine also that it would keep a lot of the same checks and balances without the same vulnerability to boom-bust cycles, as well as a generally higher worker morale (instead of a higher worker ambition).

Trotsky hates the system, by the way. It was designed by Kerensky and Bukharin in compromise with a ton of other more centrist and liberal interests, and the Chairman regards it as a monstrous chimaera all but unworthy of the name socialism. The only thing that makes it tolerable, in his opinion, is that it's better than top-hatted fatcats owning everything. His official rationalization is that the level of world development is such that true socialism cannot yet be born, and so the Union must make do with, as he describes it, "a preparatory phase to a transitional system." But Trotsky's not dictator, and too many people like the system the way it is for him to be able to change it too radically, too quickly.

I think thats the sort of system I have as well. While some of the major companies are state owned, there are many more private and worker owned businesses.

Anyway GB do you have any Idea when I will get to tech level 6?

The new system seems fine. Especially if it gets rid of the old factory system (which i've never liked).

As to big projects. How much will it cost me to widen and deepen the suez Canal to take superbattleships (and supertankers of the future) and what sort of return could I get on this once oil gets big?

This rural electrification thing, am I right in thinking it adds 10% to one's economy? If so how much would it cost for Britain to build one (though a large proportion of Brits have always lived in towns and cities so I don't think it'll cost as much as, say, a US schem nor have the same effects).

The new system seems fine. Especially if it gets rid of the old factory system (which i've never liked).

As to big projects. How much will it cost me to widen and deepen the suez Canal to take superbattleships (and supertankers of the future) and what sort of return could I get on this once oil gets big?

This rural electrification thing, am I right in thinking it adds 10% to one's economy? If so how much would it cost for Britain to build one (though a large proportion of Brits have always lived in towns and cities so I don't think it'll cost as much as, say, a US schem nor have the same effects).

Suez Canal widening is half the cost of the Panama Canal project, and Rural Electrification for Britian would cost 1 point per 10 million people. Mostly we are talking Wales and Scotland though, maybe part of the Lake District

OK I think I got the hang of the new system.


New British economy stuff (1938)

Population: UK: 47m (1938) Empire: 61m (1938), Representative Democracy, Market Economy.

Running on a normal economy, 4% growth

Point Composition:
68 British base points (68/94 capacity, 72%)
32 Empire base points (32/122 capacity, 26%)
4 from airlines, 30 from shipping (34/34, 100%)
8 from Argentina
3 from UK growth (@4%)
1 from Empire growth (@4%)
TOTAL = 146 points.

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

Total: 50 points

EXPANSION/CONSTRUCTION

---none this year---

Plus pre-paid construction:
4 Tech 6 Battleships attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (16" guns) 2 in 1938 1 in 1939 1 in 1940 (Similar to Temeraire/Lion Class), to be known as HMS Lion, Temeraire, Conqueror and Thunder
1 Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, (18" guns), ready 1941 (No relevant class) To be known as HMS Vanguard

ROUTINE DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 23.5 points on level IV welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

ROUTINE EMPIRE DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

3 points per 10 million (EMPIRE)= 18.5 points on level III welfare

EXCEPTIONAL DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

Rural Electrification (@1 point per 10 million) = 5 points

EXCEPTIONAL EMPIRE OUTLAYS

12 points to widen Suez Canal to accept Super Battleships and Supertankers
9 points to implement oil extraction infrastructure in Nigeria (complete in two years)

RESEARCH

Anglo-American Nuclear Research (2 points)
The Anglo-American jet engine which has already been invested in (Already paid for)

Total: 2 points

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AID

26 points to India

Total: 26 points


TOTAL=146 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN


Oh and India, don't forget that i'm still footing your social services bill for you, so you don't need to worry about that!

oil has been found in Nigeria... 9 points would pay for the infrastructure to extract it, which would add 5 points a year from British West Africa. It will take 2 years to build the infrastructure, and resources won't begin flowing until 1940

by the way, oil infrastructure includes production fields, oil terminals for loading onto tankers and railroad cars, and the pipelines connecting the two, as well as any deepening of ports required. Some places are harder then others. For example, Algeria and Libya lack water, are very hostile environments (out in the Sahara were the oil actually is) and cost more than Nigeria, which although jungle, at least has plenty of water and a large labor force handy.

The big fields in Siberia and Alaska when they show up will be even more expensive, and require at least tech level 7 technology in order for productive drilling to occur.

Whoa, whoa...how the hell do I figure out my points with this 'new and improved' system?

Whoa, whoa...how the hell do I figure out my points with this 'new and improved' system?

it hasn't been approved yet, and the bugs are still being worked out... so you might want to wait

it hasn't been approved yet, and the bugs are still being worked out... so you might want to wait

Could I still get an explanation, so IF we DO adopt it, I know what I'm doing?

Yeah me too... this is wierd.

So, I would need to do this Rural Electrification, and Oil Production Projects, and Super Highway System, and such. Interesting.. what would be the cost of each of these puppies? What would my base points be? I would also get 4 from the Canal, aye? And since each Merchant Marine is worth 1 point now, I'll be at 34 trade points.

oil has been found in Nigeria... 9 points would pay for the infrastructure to extract it, which would add 5 points a year from British West Africa. It will take 2 years to build the infrastructure, and resources won't begin flowing until 1940

Fine by me, this sounds pretty good and it'll make it's money back in two years, brilliant. I'll make the changes to the budget now.

In that case...

I would like to propose a possible Mega-Project for China.

I'd like to start construction of multiple hydroelectric dams similiar to the Three Gorges Dam. According to the CIA Factbook, China has the world's largest hydroelectric potential.

I would like to know how much it would cost to maximize China's hydroelectric potential- what I mean is that how many dams and how much would it cost to build up to 90% - 100% of use of China's hydropower potential?

Also, if this is possible, then how will this effect China in gameplay? All that new electricity would help, but how would it be applied? More industry points from increased electrification? Cheaper factories as electric-run machines will be used? Accelerate China's Tech Level development (cutting a few years off between Tech Level 6 and Tech Level 7) with plentiful electricity available for domestic use and science labs and such? Or what else?

Bump for comments, feedback, and approval / dis-approval of this.

Basically I want to maximize China's hydroelectric potential with building multiple "Three Gorges Dams" all over China.

Any chance of seeing NPC (particularly South American NPC) builds for 1937? I'd be interested in Paraguay especially.

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce

Does this mean all the shipping unit that I have built is for nothing? and would they be availlable to me when I reach tech 5? and when is that by the way?

Basically I want to maximize China's hydroelectric potential with building multiple "Three Gorges Dams" all over China.

I should imagine the costs will be pretty extortionate, especially on such a large scale. The modern Three Gorges Dam will cost over an estimated $75 billion figure which excludes corruption, destroyed arable land, mass population displacement (1.9 million displaced), and environmental damage.

According to this (rather dull) website http://www.fao.org/ag/agl/aglw/aquastat/countries/china/index.stm China has a potential HE production of 5,932 TWh/year, and only 1925 TWh/year is accessable with modern tech. I don't know how much of it would be accessable with 40's tech, probably a substantial amount less.

I'd say go for it, but you may wish to use lots of smaller dams than a few big ones (cheaper, easier and less flooding if something goes wrong as well). You may also consider looking for some foreign investment or waiting for tech to advance a bit first.

By the way here's a list of HE potential (top 9 countries, includes man-made schemes involving pumps)

HE Potential List: (all pa)

1 Canada, 341,312 GWh
2 USA, 319,484 GWh
3 Brazil, 285,603 GWh
4 China, 204,300 GWh
5 Russia, 173,500 GWh
6 Norway, 121,824 GWh
7 Japan, 84,500 GWh
8 India, 82,237 GWh
9 France, 77,500 GWh

Oh and for contemporary dams check out the Grand Coulee Dam in the USA which was originally started in 1941 (around the right time for us) and was the biggest dam in the world at the time. Oh and it played a vital part in Aluminium smelting an dthe Manhatten Project!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee_Dam#Original_construction

Kingdom of Bulgaria
Market Economy, Constitutional Monarchy (Similar to United Kingdom)
5.6 Million People

4 Points of Basic Economy at 1932 (1 point added at 4% growth over last 6 years)
(2 from new factories since 1932)
Still at Level 5 Technologically and Financially...

Shipping: 3 shipping units serving to help trade mainly with France, USSR, United States, United Kingdom, Ottoman Empire (Middle Eastern Union), and other nations.

This year will be spent in trying to revive the Military and for Social Reform like all of the other years as well as making use for our latest discoveries...
of oil as well as a few very significant minerals.

(I am sorry if I am fluffing up a little with everything or sounding like I did really... The numbers may need to be clarified if possible.)

Hmm... the only major project that I can think of is the Kiel Canal, which was expanded in 1914. I would assume that it already would have happened, though. Although, I'm not sure it would be big enough for Super-Battleships...

I think I'm starting to get this proposed new system. Basically we have a maximum economic factor and we grow every year, barring depression or war or any such nasty thing.

The new system is different from the old in the following ways:
Factories have been dropped.
Growth rates have been tweaked.
Tech level 7 rules have been added.
Deficit spending has been added.

It's not that radical of a change, really.

The new system is different from the old in the following ways:
Factories have been dropped.
Growth rates have been tweaked.
Tech level 7 rules have been added.
Deficit spending has been added.

It's not that radical of a change, really.

thats correct.

China, the dams you are talking about are tech level 7 because of their size. Some of the American and Russian dams built during the 1930s and 1940s were pushing the technology as it was, and they are smaller (yes, even Grand Coulee dam and the Volga dams aren't as big). In the scheme of things, they are relatively cheap though, only a couple of points at most, and really expensive enough to warrant keeping track of and I have been considering them part of the natural growth of the countries involved.

Big megaprojects in the Union would be things like the Volga Dams (considered as a whole, similar in cost to the US Tennessee Valley Authority projects which I paid for a few years back). Also useful would be the White Sea Canal allowing submarines, destroyer sized warships and smaller merchant ships to travel from the Baltic Sea to the White Sea and from there to Murmansk and the Barents Sea. Those are Tech Level 6 type projects.

Another tech level 6 project is the Aswan Dam. Some of these projects by the way have negative environmental effects that will not become immediately apparent. (Sea Lampreys getting into the Great Lakes for example after the St. Lawrence Seaway opens, the Caspian Sea and Aral Sea drying up after the Volga River dams are completed, increased salinity reducing fishing resources in the Med after Aswan... but we aren't in the point of history yet where that is a policy factor)

Plus, those environmental things won't be a big issue until after the Millenium, so we won't have to worry about it :)

So, how much would all of those (including the Kiel Canal expansion) cost? And what would be the benefit?

Parthini']Plus, those environmental things won't be a big issue until after the Millenium, so we won't have to worry about it :)

So, how much would all of those (including the Kiel Canal expansion) cost? And what would be the benefit?

Keil Canal, 6 points (2 year project), 1% bonus and military usefulness
White Sea Canal (5 year project), no significant commercial benefit, signficant military usefulness
Volga River projects (take 5 years), +10% bonus

So what sort of massive construction could Argentina do? I'm not coming up with anything.

Thanks for the info, Lesser Ribenia. It has been quite helpful!

However, I'm not exactly sure how much electricity a TW is- is it Terawatt? If so, how many millions of homes could China power with 1000 TW/h? I think 1000 TW should be reasonable with 1940's tech as we're slightly ahead in technology in E20.

Besides, I think it can be possible to access most, if not all the 6000 TW potential China has by building roads and railroads to each major dam site to service it with construction materials, machinery, personnel, and then maintainence services. If the dam site is inaccessible, then blast roads or railroads through the mountains, hillsides, or forests to get to the sites.

Also, I believe that the dams would also allow China to irrigate more farmland. perhaps even transform some of the Gobi Desert into arable farmland. I remember watching on TV that Egypt may even consider building a second Nile River (fully artifical river), which will turn millions if not billions of acres of the Sahara into arable farmland.

-------------------------

All this aside, I would really like to know what Mega-Projects that China can undertake at either Tech level 5, 6, or 7? I'd like to know so I can plan on doing several to boost Chinese economy, industry, infrastructure, and living standards.

---------------------------

EDIT:

I believe the long term benefits of 1000 - 6000 TW of hydro-power will be immense. That means I won't need as much coal, oil, or nuclear power plants, consquently, conserving a lot of raw resources (coal, oil, uranium) and enviromentally far less polluting than the RL China is.

Thanks for the info, Lesser Ribenia. It has been quite helpful!


EDIT:

I believe the long term benefits of 1000 - 6000 TW of hydro-power will be immense. That means I won't need as much coal, oil, or nuclear power plants, consquently, conserving a lot of raw resources (coal, oil, uranium) and enviromentally far less polluting than the RL China is.

Read up on the old canal that connected the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers, that is well within reach

now that i am back and seemed to miss some important stuff, can anyone sum up whats going on, or maybe give me a date on when the rules will be posted?

OOC: Using Old System until I can get my head around the New one.

IC:

Korean Build-
National Effort- 10 points, plus 17 extra from Union and 3 from US

IC:

1938-

devotion of 15 points (8 donated (Union), 7 domestic) to support for basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, plus to back public universities and social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
2 points for upkeep of ground forces
8 points for a factory (to be done in 8/9 turns, represents KWP Mutual Aid Fund beginning microloans for small businesses (2 Union pts), and beginnings of government-private sector cooperation (3 domestic pts), and US Aid (3 points from US))
2 Points to go to Nationalist China for Social Aid

We are looking for contractors to provide us industrial aid and investment.

Read up on the old canal that connected the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers, that is well within reach

Ahh, I forgot about that one!

How much would that project cost point-wise, and what gameplay benefits would that canal incur?

Ahh, I forgot about that one!

How much would that project cost point-wise, and what gameplay benefits would that canal incur?

I will have to research it, I will get back to you next week on that

I will have to research it, I will get back to you next week on that

Thanks.

Would the following be a good Mega-Project scheducle for China...

Tech Level 5 = The Two-Rivers Canal (connect Yangtze and Yellow Rivers)

Tech Level 6 = Create a massive public transportation system (5 Projects in one).

1. Lay down at least 1 million miles of railroad. There are to be four railroad tracks running in each railroad line as opposed to the USA or Union's two railroad tracks (otherwise known as a double track).

2. At least 15 major interstate highways throughout China (like the USA's Interstates 10, 20, 30, 40, and so on).

3. Each Chinese city with a population of 100,000 or above will build an extensive subway network.

4. Each Chinese city with a population of 250,000 or above will build commuter rail networks similiar to the Metro, MBTA, El, etc. in the USA.

5. Passenger Rail travel will be provided to every Chinese city, as the quad track rail lines will allow for such traffic to occur. If necessary, expand it to six tracks to allow for increased freight or passenger service.

Tech level 7 = Two Projects.

Project #1 = 80% - 100% maximization of Chinese hydroelectric potential to reduce China's dependence on fossil fuels and uranium for power generation, as well as being far more enviromentally friendly than huge polluting power plants. Towards that end, to make the whole 6000 TW potential accessible, roads and railroads will be bulit through mountains, hills, canyons, and forests. Tunnels, bridges, or the like will be built through harsh terrain if necessary.

Project #2 = Rice and Farm Mechanization as we discussed last week.

--------------------------

Does this sound like a good project scheducle for China? Let me know. :)

Tech Level 4 or lower – No commerce

Does this mean all the shipping unit that I have built is for nothing? and would they be availlable to me when I reach tech 5? and when is that by the way?

Bump

USEA 1938 build

22 points ( 10 from factories in Cam Ranh, Saigon, Hanoi, Phnom Penh and Vientiane + 8 from 4,000,000 tons of shipping + 4 Aid from USA)

Domestic:

Level III social spending 6 points

3x Shipping Unit (500,000 tons) 9 points
1x Shipping Unit (500,000 tons) .5 points [completed from last year]

Military:

1x pilot unit 2 points
1x twin engined bomber unit 2 points

Military Maintenace:
2x Infantry corps free
3x Garrison corps free
1x Motorized .25 points
1x fighter unit .5 points
1x Marine unit .5 points
1x Light ship unit .25 points

Total = 1.5 points


Also GB next year (1939) I would like to start a megaproject, This project would be to extend the railway network.
The current rail network (red) would be extended with the proposed addition (green)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/USEAmpaRRF.png

How much would this cost and how long would it take?

Stupid Jolt... I had a nice post earlier...

ANYWAYS,

Sharina, the Trans-Siberian, at least is no mere 2 lane track. It's a 4 lane that was extended in the 2nd War. I personally have been pushing for an expansion, but that's a different story.

Speaking of railroads, what would an expansion to a 6 lane track all around (Germany-Balkans-MEU-China-Russia-Germany) on the Worker's (Trans-Eurasian) railroad do and how much would it cost? Also, shouldn't the Union (or at least Germany) be getting some benefits from the railroad, considering it is run by the state?

Yes, we own the railroad going all across Asia. Power is beautiful :)

However, I'm not exactly sure how much electricity a TW is- is it Terawatt? If so, how many millions of homes could China power with 1000 TW/h? I think 1000 TW should be reasonable with 1940's tech as we're slightly ahead in technology in E20.

Besides, I think it can be possible to access most, if not all the 6000 TW potential China has by building roads and railroads to each major dam site to service it with construction materials, machinery, personnel, and then maintainence services. If the dam site is inaccessible, then blast roads or railroads through the mountains, hillsides, or forests to get to the sites.

Also, I believe that the dams would also allow China to irrigate more farmland. perhaps even transform some of the Gobi Desert into arable farmland. I remember watching on TV that Egypt may even consider building a second Nile River (fully artifical river), which will turn millions if not billions of acres of the Sahara into arable farmland.


1 TW is a huge amount of power. 1 TW is 10/\12 (the: /\ is meant to represent "to the power of") watts. Most lightbulbs are ~100 watts. Therefore one terawatt can run 10000000000 (10 billion) 100 watt light bulbs.

It gets more complicated when wh (watt hours) are introduced. One watt hour is enough energy to run a one watt appliance for an hour, so a one terawatt hour per year generator could produce enough energy in one year to run 10 billion light bulbs for an hour, or just over 1.1 million light bulbs per year.

The old Grand Coulee Dam made around 4 TWh of electricity per year, enough to light 4.5 million light bulbs constantly for a year. So the 1940's dams don't have much of a power output relative to modern systems, but China probably wouldn't need more than a few of these to cover all her needs. Considering that currently the vast majority of Chinese (I am thinking of all the farmers) still aren't connected to a power source and have no need to be. I should think that at most 2 or 3 such dams would be needed. Power won't really be a problem until mass urbanisation occurs and then a few more turbines can be added to existing dams or else new ones built. Especially considering that even most urban Chinese won't have that many power intensive appliances.

Anyway, I digress...

Put simply, I think that 4 dams providing around 16Twh of powershould be more than enough to keep China supplied without need for other sources and also provide a surplus which can be activated (ie. most dams never run at full capacity and they switch more water to the turbines when needed) as a quick route to more electricity or else can be exported to nearby countries.

Hope that shed some light on the matter (it sure confused the hell out of me!).

i really need someone to explain what is going on, since builds have to be posted pretty soon, and i would like to start working on that.

The new system is EXACTLY the same as the old one except that:

Factories have been removed
Growth rates have changed (usually increased)
You now chose whether to have a market-based (capitalist style) economy or a command based (socialist style) economy and have the following effects:

Market= increased growth
Command= increased useage of economy in war

I think that's about right...

Bump

for now you get to keep them, and you reach tech level 5 in 1938, and India and India reach tech level 6 in 1938

I am gone for the next 48 hours, have a Happy New Year all

1 TW is a huge amount of power. 1 TW is 10/\12 (the: /\ is meant to represent "to the power of") watts. Most lightbulbs are ~100 watts. Therefore one terawatt can run 10000000000 (10 billion) 100 watt light bulbs.

It gets more complicated when wh (watt hours) are introduced. One watt hour is enough energy to run a one watt appliance for an hour, so a one terawatt hour per year generator could produce enough energy in one year to run 10 billion light bulbs for an hour, or just over 1.1 million light bulbs per year.

The old Grand Coulee Dam made around 4 TWh of electricity per year, enough to light 4.5 million light bulbs constantly for a year. So the 1940's dams don't have much of a power output relative to modern systems, but China probably wouldn't need more than a few of these to cover all her needs. Considering that currently the vast majority of Chinese (I am thinking of all the farmers) still aren't connected to a power source and have no need to be. I should think that at most 2 or 3 such dams would be needed. Power won't really be a problem until mass urbanisation occurs and then a few more turbines can be added to existing dams or else new ones built. Especially considering that even most urban Chinese won't have that many power intensive appliances.

Anyway, I digress...

Put simply, I think that 4 dams providing around 16Twh of powershould be more than enough to keep China supplied without need for other sources and also provide a surplus which can be activated (ie. most dams never run at full capacity and they switch more water to the turbines when needed) as a quick route to more electricity or else can be exported to nearby countries.

Hope that shed some light on the matter (it sure confused the hell out of me!).

Thanks once again for the help, Lesser Ribenia!

I did a bit of research myself (thank god for my vacation haha). I found out that the total USA Electrical consumption in '01 is listed as 3,602,000,000,000 kWh... or 3602 TW/h I think. With China's 6000 TW/h potential, you could power today's RL USA indefinitely (6000 TW/h powering a demand of 3600 TW/h) without need for coal, nuclear, or oil power plants.

Besides, don't forget wind turbines in the future (both E20 and RL). I remember reading somewhere that today we are starting to build single windmills capable of 5 MW/h (megawatts, or a million watts). Then you'd only need to build, what, 1 million windmills to get a 5000 TW/h output in addition to China's 6000 TW/h hydroelectric output. If I do wind farms later (probably Tech level 8) then I will never ever need any coal, oil, or nuclear power plants for China ever again!

Sorry- getting ahead of myself... I'm salivating somewhat at a China that can outproduce the USA in terms of energy generation, but 100% ecological and renewable sources instead of fossil fuels or finite resources. Far less pollution is an added bonus as well. Imagine a China much more greener than the good ol' US of A despite China's bloated population figure. ;)

Perhaps the Wind Turbines could be my Tech Level 8 Mega-Project. :)

At any rate, I probably won't need 1000 - 6000 TW/h of electricity until the 1960's or 1970's when electronics actually begin to take off, combined with the RL oil crisis. I'll be happy with maybe 200 - 500 TW/h for the 1940's and 1950's from hydroelectricity and no coal, oil, or nuclear power plants.

----------------------------

Anyways, I may not be back until tomorrow, so Happy New Year's you guys. See you in 2006! :D

1938:2 Shipping complete +2

1 maintenance

1 social programs

1.5 points to Factory construction (16.5/36)

6 shipping Construction

0.5 point to reserve garrison unit construction (2/3)

1 for special police unit construction (Militia)

3 points to be lent to the MEU
-------------------------------------------
1939: End of National Effort and Cut Spending
4/2=2 points from factories
4 points from shipping (unaffected by government spending I persume)

Factory construction progress: 15/36 --> 30/72

1 maintenence

1 on social programs

3 on shipping

1 on factory construction (31/72)
------------------------------------------------

French Build, 1938

74 points base, 18 points shipping, 3 points from air lines (95 points total, 2% growth)

Military Spending

Active Military
2xMech Corps (1 points)
1xAlpine Corps (.5 points)
2xCoastal Artillery (.5 points)
1xFlak Artillery (.25 points)

2xLight Ship Units (.5 points)
2xSub Units (.5 points)
5xLight Cruisers (1.25 points)
1xFleet Carrier (.5 points)
2xEscort Carriers (1 point)

1xFighter Unit (.5 points)
1xNaval Bomber Unit (.5 points)
2xCarrier Fighter Unit (.5 points)
2xCarrier Bomber Unit (.5 points)

2xPilots (.5 points)
4xCarrier Pilots (1 point)

Reserve Military
2xMech Corps (1 point)
1xFlak Artillery (.25 points)
1xMechanized Anti-Tank Unit (.5 points)
2xFighter Units (1 point)
2xBomber Units (1 point)
1xNaval Bomber Unit (.5 points)
1xHQ (.5 points)
1xMarine Corps (.5 points)
4xPilots (1 point)


Maintence: 14.25 points (round to 14)

Military Build/Research

2xTech 6 Heavy Cruiser (FS Revenant and FS Papillion, 1 year remaining)

FS Richeliu (2.5 years remaining)

FS []Jean Bart[/i], Richeliu's sister ship. (4 years to construct, 4 points spent this year)

Henschel Tanks (4 points)

Rockets (4 points)

Jet Engines/Aircraft (4 points)

4 Fortifications (Calais, Boulogne, Rouen, Le HAvre 8 points)
Total: 24

Military Total: 30

Domestic Spending

French West Africa RR (5 points, 15 remaining)

Level 4 Social Services for Contental France (25 points)

Level 2 Social Services for French West Africa (Population 38 million [est.], 6 points)

Factory #1 (6 points, 12 remaining)

Factory #2 (CANCELED)

Factory #3 (CANCELED)

2 Shipping Unit (6 points)

Assistance to China (8 points)

TOTAL SPENDING: 94 points

Beginning in 1938, the French colonial governemnt begins providing educational facilities and meical care for the citizens of French West Africa. The first year will be spent building up the infrastructure needed and hiring locals to work at the bulk of local facilities. For now, most of the major cities are recieving educational facilities while French workers are doing their best to get out into the countryside.

Thanks for the help Lesser Ribena

Base Points: 26(socialist economy since i am socialist)
Merchant Marine: 9
Foreign Assistance: 12
Total: 47

Projects:
Rural electrification(My nation isn't too big, and i have been over spending on my social costs, so i was wondering if this would cost a minimal amount of points?)

Dam construction: I want to build a bunch of smaller dams, since this is how Yugoslavia gets a chunk of it's modern day power, i would like to do that.

National Maintenence:
10 points for welfare(level IV welfare)
4.25 points for military

National Builds:
2x Merchant Marines 6 points
1x Light Cruiser "Alexandre" 1 points to complete,completion this year

Foreign spending:
1.75 to Albania Communist faction (Covert)

Points spent: 23
Points left over for edit: 24


I will need a moderator to tell me how much my two projects will cost.and the bonuses they will provide. Also i would like some suggestions on further projects since i have a wealth of points to spend, and not much to spend them on.

for now you get to keep them, and you reach tech level 5 in 1938, and India and India reach tech level 6 in 1938

I am gone for the next 48 hours, have a Happy New Year all

Oh sweeeeeeet! Level 6 in like...tommorrow!

I guess that means I have to update my army at the next chance. But I can also do alot of cool stuff. Yay!

for now you get to keep them, and you reach tech level 5 in 1938, and India and India reach tech level 6 in 1938

I am gone for the next 48 hours, have a Happy New Year all

India and India?

Don't you mean India and China? ;)

Anyways I'm off for the New Years Eve, so I won't see you guys until 2006. Happy New Years, guys and gals!

Rumanian Build 1938
28 Points (21 from factories, 7 from shipping)
Normal Spending, 2% Growth

Military Upkeep
1xTech 6 Mechanised Corp-.5 points
1x Alpine corp-.5 points
2xTech 6 Motorised Corps-.5 points
1xTech 6 Fighter(IAR 81C)-.5 points
1x Tech 6 Single Engine bomber(Stuka)-.5 points
2xTech 6 Light Crusiers (RRNS Elisabeta and Dacia)-.5 points
1xTech 6 Heavy Crusier (RRNS Regele Carol I)-.25 points
1x Tech 6 Light Ship Counter (10 destroyers and their escorts)-.25 points
2xField Artillery-.5 points
2x Pilots-0 points

TOTAL: 4 points

Military Build
none

TOTAL: 0 Points

Domestic Spending
Lvl. 4 social services for 11 Million People-5 Points
18 points for 6 shipping units
TOTAL: 23 points

TOTAL SPENDING:27 points
SURPLUS:1 point

Active Military
1x Mechanised Corp
1x Alpine Corp
1x Field Artillery Unit
1xFighter Unit
1x Single Engine Bomber
2xPilots
2x Light crusiers
1x Heavy Cruiser
10x Destroyers (1 Light Ship Counter)
Reserve Military
2x Reserve Motorised Corps
1x Field Artillery Unit

India and India?

Don't you mean India and China? ;)

Anyways I'm off for the New Years Eve, so I won't see you guys until 2006. Happy New Years, guys and gals!

No, he means India and India! :D

It's a bad sign when the guy who originally proposed a modest tweak (allowing capitalist countries to borrow money) no longer has any freakin' clue what system we're using.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)
Population:13 million
1938 builds: 28 points base + 1 from Natural Growth, plus 34 for shipping and airlines, total of 63 points

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). - 5 points basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
1 x Light Bomber = 1p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
3 x Flak Artillery = .75p
2 x Carrier Fighter Units = 2p
1 x Carrier Bomber Units = 1p
3 x Fleet Carrier = 3p (Vincente Sewell, Dario Echandia, Francisco de Paula Santander)
2 x Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
TOTAL: 26p

National Builds: (32p left)
5 Points to Panama Canal effort. (To make it 7/10)
10 Points to MEU

Mega Projects: (17p left)
Oil Exploration/Production in Venezuela and Colombia (I would need to know how many points this would cost) as well as Rural Electrification

Argentina- 1938 Build
Economy-Start of Year
11 Base +27 commerce=38 points
Normal Spending, Market-Directed Economy, Representative democracy

Military-Start of Year
2 mechanized corps, 2 infantry corps, 2 garrison units, 2 fighter units (A6M), 1 bomber unit (Mosquito), 6 pilots, 2 tech level 6 County type light cruisers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers (modernized), 27 shipping units. Maintenance: 3.5 points

Domestic Spending
Level III social services-3
3 shipping units-9
National Airline-3
International Airline-4
Rural Electrification-1 (Year 1 of 2)

Military Spending-
Military Maintenance-3.5
1 headquarters unit-6

Foreign Spending-
Great Britain-8 (16/48 paid)
Bolivia-.5 (Social services)

Military-End of Year
2 mechanized corps, 2 infantry corps, 3 garrison units, 1 HQ, 2 fighter units (A6M), 1 bomber unit (Mosquito), 6 pilots, 2 tech level 6 County type light cruisers, 10 tech level 6 destroyers (modernized), 30 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 international airline. Maintenance: 4 points.

Economy-End of Year
11.77 base + 34 commerce

Hey, hwo does Rumania's oil effect me? I mean, I should get points from it, right?

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)


[b]Mega Projects: (17p left)
Oil Exploration/Production in Venezuela and Colombia (I would need to know how many points this would cost) as well as Rural Electrification

you already have oil (in the 1920s) and its being produced and no additional infrastructure is required, especially as you already sank a lot of points into Venezuela already

By the way, I meant China and Indian both reach tech level 6 in 1938

incidently, back from travel, but exhausted, willl read more tomorrow

Hey, hwo does Rumania's oil effect me? I mean, I should get points from it, right?

you already get points for your oil, and oil has been produced from your country since about 1900

Parthini']Speaking of railroads, what would an expansion to a 6 lane track all around (Germany-Balkans-MEU-China-Russia-Germany) on the Worker's (Trans-Eurasian) railroad do and how much would it cost? Also, shouldn't the Union (or at least Germany) be getting some benefits from the railroad, considering it is run by the state?

Reminder. No rush, just wanna put it up there :)

So what sort of massive construction could Argentina do? I'm not coming up with anything.
Any chance of seeing NPC (particularly South American NPC) builds for 1937? I'd be interested in Paraguay especially.

Just a friendly bump...

(OoC:I hope I'm not too late to write up my economy plan using the new system)

Algeria 1938
Population:7.5 million, Social Conservative, Market Economy
4 points base income (National effort x2)
2 points from oil
4 points from commerce
12 points from US for development of infrastructure for oil production
2% growth (0.08 points neglegible)
Total 26 points

Millitary maintenance 1 point
Social Programs (Level 2) 1.5 points
Total 2.5 points

Remainder 24.5 points
Construction:
Development of infrastructure for oil production (12 points)
2 Shipping units (6 points)
1 Police unit (Millitia) (1 point)
1 Reserve Garrison Unit part 2/2 (1.5 points) <3/3>
3 Points send as Loan to MEU

Also GB next year (1939) I would like to start a megaproject, This project would be to extend the railway network.
The current rail network (red) would be extended with the proposed addition (green)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...USEAmpaRRF.png

How much would this cost and how long would it take?

Bump

Bump

your link didn't work.. but you already got a bump from a megaproject involving your raillines and ports when the Americans built them for you.. Gave you a tech level increase right away.

*head explodes* I don't know what's going on with the economic system right now but I'm really lost.

Oh by the way since my builds for last year were so messed up, here are LAST YEAR'S BUILDS

Switch to National Effort
60(2x) Base Points + 20 Shipping Points = 140 Points

Domestic Services
16 Points

Other Actions:
Mothball three Battleships and two Heavy Cruisers

Military Upkeep:
46.25 Points

National Builds
Upgrade Submarine Unit to level 6 – 3 Points
2x A6M Fighters for MEU - (Paid for by him)
10x Shipping Units – 30 Points
1x Factory – 36 Points
1x Fleet Carrier - 8 Points

Total Points Spent: 139.25


So next year I should have 92 Points in normal spending and 45.75 in military up-keep right?

It's a bad sign when the guy who originally proposed a modest tweak (allowing capitalist countries to borrow money) no longer has any freakin' clue what system we're using.
Bump.

These reforms, in my opinion, have been much more extensive than helpful. I am not in favor of "megaprojects," for instance, and the discussion of resources seems too arbitrary.

Moreover, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Bump.

These reforms, in my opinion, have been much more extensive than helpful. I am not in favor of "megaprojects," for instance, and the discussion of resources seems too arbitrary.

Moreover, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

Chill, man. We won't get back on trak until prolly tommorrow, since everyone went somewhere for New Years Eve (well, almost everyone).

Would the following be a good Mega-Project scheducle for China...

Tech Level 5 = The Two-Rivers Canal (connect Yangtze and Yellow Rivers)

Tech Level 6 = Create a massive public transportation system (5 Projects in one).

1. Lay down at least 1 million miles of railroad. There are to be four railroad tracks running in each railroad line as opposed to the USA or Union's two railroad tracks (otherwise known as a double track).

2. At least 15 major interstate highways throughout China (like the USA's Interstates 10, 20, 30, 40, and so on).

3. Each Chinese city with a population of 100,000 or above will build an extensive subway network.

4. Each Chinese city with a population of 250,000 or above will build commuter rail networks similiar to the Metro, MBTA, El, etc. in the USA.

5. Passenger Rail travel will be provided to every Chinese city, as the quad track rail lines will allow for such traffic to occur. If necessary, expand it to six tracks to allow for increased freight or passenger service.

Tech level 7 = Two Projects.

Project #1 = 80% - 100% maximization of Chinese hydroelectric potential to reduce China's dependence on fossil fuels and uranium for power generation, as well as being far more enviromentally friendly than huge polluting power plants. Towards that end, to make the whole 6000 TW potential accessible, roads and railroads will be bulit through mountains, hills, canyons, and forests. Tunnels, bridges, or the like will be built through harsh terrain if necessary.

Project #2 = Rice and Farm Mechanization as we discussed last week.

Tech Level 8 = Wind Turbine Farms for 5000 TW/h of electricity.

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Does this sound like a good project scheducle for China? Let me know.

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I believe that Megaprojects should be allowed. It allows for uniqueness in E20, like in Civilization games "Build Wonders of the World" that confers some extra bonuses. Russia has the Kremlin, the USA has Liberty Statue and Empire State Building, Britain has Big Ben, etc.

There should be some modern huge projects allowed- like the USA built the Hoover Dam, Russia built the Volga Dam, Japan built all these bridges connecting its islands, Britain + France built the Channel Tunnel, the USA built the Lake Pontocha Bridge (connect New Orleans to mainland Louisiana over the lake) and the Cheapsake Bridges and Golden Gate Bridge... the list goes on and on. These unique stuff should be present in E20 to make each individual nation have a distinct flavor of its own, not just cultural, but science and engineering as well.

----------------------------

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my builds, with the new system and all.

Right now I'm undecided on whether to stay on National Effort for just one more year (so that I can finish repairing my last 4 factories and start putting points into the Canal Mega-Project)... or revert to Normal Economy and become unable to afford Level II Social Services + Military Maintainence + repair factories...

Expeditures I have to spend for 1938....

106 points for Level II Education
14 points for Military Maintainence
24 points to rebuild 4 factories at 6 points apiece

Total = 144 points.

National Effort = Roughly 200 points (Commerce included).
Normal Spending = Roughly 115 points (Commerce included).

So you can see my dilemma. I know if I stay on National Effort I risk a repeat of the Civil War then a second Japanese invasion. But if I revert to Normal Spending, I'll effectively be paralyzed, unable to pay maintainence or build anything new or repair anything.

What to do?

Chill, man. We won't get back on trak until prolly tommorrow, since everyone went somewhere for New Years Eve (well, almost everyone).
Don't answer me unless you're going to answer me.

Now, to repeat: WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

This has gotten ridiculous.

Because reform of the point system is a divisive topic that splits even the mods, I hereby call for a general vote. However, I believe that many will wish to embrace only part of the system, and discard other parts. The proposed reforms are as follows:

Factories are removed.
Growth rates are changed.
Deficit spending is allowed.
Megaprojects are embraced.

I think that we should vote for or against each of these changes. The ones that get a general “for” vote we should adopt, those that the community is against we should drop.

I vote as follows.
Against factory removal. Forced industrialization is an important part of the game.

Against changing the growth rates. More trouble than it’s worth, in my opinion.

For deficit spending. Fun, optional, adds another element to the game.

Against megaprojects. If people want to undertake projects that will boost their economy, let’s represent those projects as factories. We don’t need a whole new arbitrary system.

Don't answer me unless you're going to answer me.

Now, to repeat: WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

This has gotten ridiculous.

All I know is that GB is still refining the point system. He's trying to simplify it, but at the same time he's trying o explain it in more detail. He probably is a fanatic of points or build-systems and is trying to impart some of that zeal here.

However, I brought up some idea for the resources. I believe it's realistic to include resources in E20, because E20 is based in realism. The Resource System will allow for interesting RP and diplomacy with trade and embargoes, as well as determine what nation can do what. For example, the MEU has lots of oil but must stand on its toes lest other nations decide to seize the oil for themselves. Or if the USA embargoes its steel then the world can't use the USA's steel to build stuff. Japan is mostly dependent on foreign imports as it has little to no nautral resources of its own. If trade is cut off to Japan, then it cannot build new Navy ships or Army or whatever.

The resource system describes and takes all that into account. Otherwise, some E20'ers may assume they can build whatever at anytime, regardless of embargoes and no access to oil, steel, uranium, or whatever.


As for megaprojects... I repeat myself...

I believe that Megaprojects should be allowed. It allows for uniqueness in E20, like in Civilization games "Build Wonders of the World" that confers some extra bonuses. Russia has the Kremlin, the USA has Liberty Statue and Empire State Building, Britain has Big Ben, etc.

There should be some modern huge projects allowed- like the USA built the Hoover Dam, Russia built the Volga Dam, Japan built all these bridges connecting its islands, Britain + France built the Channel Tunnel, the USA built the Lake Pontocha Bridge (connect New Orleans to mainland Louisiana over the lake) and the Cheapsake Bridges and Golden Gate Bridge... the list goes on and on. These unique stuff should be present in E20 to make each individual nation have a distinct flavor of its own, not just cultural, but science and engineering as well.


Hope that answers some of the questions that you may have.

I agree and vote in favor of whatever Middle Snu has voted in favor of ...cause my head is not working..

I'm for the entire new system.

I vote for the following...

Factory removal = Aye.

I believe that factory should be translated into "Industrial Index" or "Economic Index", a simple ranking of how much industrial or economic might that your nation may possess. Factories aren't everything in E20. You're forgetting farms, mines, commercial stores, and non-factory industries / economic processes. The "Index" idea I have would incorporate these essential things along with the factories to make up your nation's potential.


Growth changes = Nay (although a slight tweak is needed).

I think changing growth rates completely will make it too much of an headache for everybody involved. However, you gotta admit that capitalist nations can enjoy more economic growth than socialist countries due to the nature of capitalism encouraging economy growth.

Perhaps a slight tweak in this will satisfy everyone- like have Socialist nations have 1% less growth in every "mode" than capitalist ones. That's a pretty simple tweak IMHO.


Deficit spending is allowed = Aye.

In RL, we have deficit spending. Just look at the USA in RL. It will also allow for some cash starved nations like China (refer to my earlier post on why China may need permanent National Effort just to sustain Level II Social Spending until I hit 150+ points in peacetime income) to become "un-paralyzed" when it comes to needing to maintain or build things.


Megaprojects are embraced = A definite Aye.

In RL, we always do incredible feats of engineering. I can cite no less than ten examples.

Modern projects:

1. Golden Gate Bridge
2. Hoover Dam
3. Statue of Liberty
4. Channel Tunnel
5. Empire State Building
6. Kobe Bridge (Japan)
7. Cheapsake Bay Bridge+Tunnel system
8. Floating Airport (Japan)
9. 30-mile long tunnels in the Alp Mountains
10. Eiffel Tower

Ancient / Classical projects:

1. Great Wall
2. Pyramids
3. Hanging Gardens
4. Roman Aqueduct systems
5. Sewer systems in ancient Sumeria
6. The Sphinx
7. Hadrian's Wall
8. Deep Artifical Harbor at Caesarea built by King Herod
9. Roman Road-building (still exists today)
10. The Parthneon (precise Greek geometry engineering that is 1000's years ahead of its time)

I can go on and on on how these projects will and does define a nation's uniqueness, identity, and benefits (religion, economy, culture, etc.)

The vote stands:

Megaprojects: 2 for, 2 against.
Changing growth rates: 1 for, 3 against.
Removing factories: 2 for, 2 against.
Deficit spending: 4 for, 0 against.

Plus a vote for somehow incorporating resources.

Sharina, I think you might be slightly confused about what "removing factories" is. Factories represent all the things you were talking about. Indeed, a factory doesn't have to represent literally industry. The proposed change could be more fully rendered as:

Removing the ability to invest points in order to increase the economy.

Given that, would you like to change your vote?

Against megaprojects. If people want to undertake projects that will boost their economy, let’s represent those projects as factories. We don’t need a whole new arbitrary system.

This would be very boring, indeed. Spamming factories instead of build national-unique structures or enhancements. If everything comes down to factories, it will only encourage "Nation X has 10000000 factories! I beat j00 already!"

There should be alternatives to boosting economy than building a million huge factory complexes, unless you want to become like the Borg in Star Trek- unfeeling, uncaring, and aesthically ugly. No culture, pride, or identity whatsoever.

The vote stands:

Megaprojects: 2 for, 2 against.
Changing growth rates: 1 for, 3 against.
Removing factories: 2 for, 2 against.
Deficit spending: 4 for, 0 against.

Plus a vote for somehow incorporating resources.

Sharina, I think you might be slightly confused about what "removing factories" is. Factories represent all the things you were talking about. Indeed, a factory doesn't have to represent literally industry. The proposed change could be more fully rendered as:

Removing the ability to invest points in order to increase the economy.

Given that, would you like to change your vote?

Hmm... I hadn't really thought of it that way.

However, I vote that we change "Factory" to "Industry Index" to better name the whole thing. The "Factory" may be a misnomer, leading people to believe it means building factories like in computer strategy games, ya know? I do agree that we shouldn't remove "investments in economy to improve it". Thats crazy.

But better rename "Factory" to "Industry Index" which is a better all-encompassing name that doesn't mislead people.

This would be very boring, indeed. Spamming factories instead of build national-unique structures or enhancements. If everything comes down to factories, it will only encourage "Nation X has 10000000 factories! I beat j00 already!"

There should be alternatives to boosting economy than building a million huge factory complexes, unless you want to become like the Borg in Star Trek- unfeeling, uncaring, and aesthically ugly. No culture, pride, or identity whatsoever.

Possibly. I see it more as a move towards a unified system as anything else. For instance, if China wanted to build the two-rivers canal, you could say "China spends 72 points on the two-rivers canal (2 factories, 4 bonus points every turn)." Of course, I respect that you have a different opinion.

Possibly. I see it more as a move towards a unified system as anything else. For instance, if China wanted to build the two-rivers canal, you could say "China spends 72 points on the two-rivers canal (2 factories, 4 bonus points every turn)." Of course, I respect that you have a different opinion.

The bonus points could be a good idea how to incorporate Megaprojects as a "super-factory" of sorts.

*Slams head into the wall violently*

What is going on? Whats wrong with the points system? How are you guess changing it? I have no idea whats happening, can someone please try to explain it?

*Slams head into the wall violently*

What is going on? Whats wrong with the points system? How are you guess changing it? I have no idea whats happening, can someone please try to explain it?

some proposals were made to tweak the economic portion of this RP, and they are being discussed.

Do not post builds yet.

Incidently, I have been gone the last two days and am sick today, so I won't be real productive until tomorrow.

some proposals were made to tweak the economic portion of this RP, and they are being discussed.

Do not post builds yet.

Incidently, I have been gone the last two days and am sick today, so I won't be real productive until tomorrow.

That's t3h sux.

Also, since it ARE 1938, and that's when you said I'd hit tech level 6, can you color India's name blue on the front page? Please? Pretty please? It'll make me feel all warm inside!

I'll hold off on any further rants until things are settled, and the relevant posts on the relevant first pages are updated. For 1938, I'll use the old system, and I think we all should. Probably for 1939, as well.

Megaprojects are appealing, but there are definitely some problems - arbitrariness, for one, and also it gives me yet another hassle to keep track of. I mean, I'd rather just say that the White Sea Canal gets built on schedule, along with the Volga Dams (and I already did alot of irrigation work down in Ukraine back in the 'Twenties because of the Drought), etc., than have to research the history of Soviet and German "megaprojects" - that wasn't really my speciality, because that of thing bores me to tears.

On the other hand, if I wanted to build something that didn't exist, like a Pacific Pipeline, that's another story.

Frankly, I agree with Middle Snu, that an "Industrial Index" represents more than "factories" and should include things like hydroelectric dams, rural electrification, highway systems, etc., as things which increase the production points a country has available to it. This was actually a proposal I made when we first adopted the point system, but it was ignored.

EDIT: The Jolt Forums screwed up, so I had to keep reloading the webpage to add my reply, and somehow I got these multiple posts in. Arrgh!

EDIT: The Jolt Forums screwed up, so I had to keep reloading the webpage to add my reply, and somehow I got these multiple posts in. Arrgh!

I'll hold off on any further rants until things are settled, and the relevant posts on the relevant first pages are updated. For 1938, I'll use the old system, and I think we all should. Probably for 1939, as well.

Megaprojects are appealing, but there are definitely some problems - arbitrariness, for one, and also it gives me yet another hassle to keep track of. I mean, I'd rather just say that the White Sea Canal gets built on schedule, along with the Volga Dams (and I already did alot of irrigation work down in Ukraine back in the 'Twenties because of the Drought), etc., than have to research the history of Soviet and German "megaprojects" - that wasn't really my speciality, because that of thing bores me to tears.

On the other hand, if I wanted to build something that didn't exist, like a Pacific Pipeline, that's another story.

Frankly, I agree with Middle Snu, that an "Industrial Index" represents more than "factories" and should include things like hydroelectric dams, rural electrification, highway systems, etc., as things which increase the production points a country has available to it. This was actually a proposal I made when we first adopted the point system, but it was ignored.

A couple of things.

Megaprojects are my forte, as I'm a fan of these things and engineering marvels and I know quite a bit about these feats of engineering from the History Channel, Modern Marvels, and internet websites. So I could help out in that department.

Additionally, I was the one who proposed "Industrial Index" or at least I think I did.

We need some kind of mechanism to simulate state built projects that bring about real economic change and strategic benefits. It is hard for them to have a set cost, as they vary.

At tech level 6 you can bring electricity and running water to your rural population.. cost is 1 point per 10 million in total population, economic benefit is a 10% increase in your overall income. This is a real benefit and also brings you some social advantages (rural people like it when the government does something for them).

Megaprojects.. minimum cost is 6, maximum cost is 20. Economic bump of 5% - 10% (determined by referee). Tech level affects availability. This will also allow us to simulate a space program later, or seafarming or whatnot. You will not know ahead of time what that bump will be (as these things tend to have unexpected consequences and rewards).

Your government is getting income to spend, so economic points are called income. You get income from your own economy (factories, farms etc), and from commerce and from other sources occasionally (deficit spending and borrowing from other countries as well as aid).

So just call economic points income for simplicity.

We need some kind of mechanism to simulate state built projects that bring about real economic change and strategic benefits. It is hard for them to have a set cost, as they vary.

At tech level 6 you can bring electricity and running water to your rural population.. cost is 1 point per 10 million in total population, economic benefit is a 10% increase in your overall income. This is a real benefit and also brings you some social advantages (rural people like it when the government does something for them).

Megaprojects.. minimum cost is 6, maximum cost is 20. Economic bump of 5% - 10% (determined by referee). Tech level affects availability. This will also allow us to simulate a space program later, or seafarming or whatnot. You will not know ahead of time what that bump will be (as these things tend to have unexpected consequences and rewards).

Your government is getting income to spend, so economic points are called income. You get income from your own economy (factories, farms etc), and from commerce and from other sources occasionally (deficit spending and borrowing from other countries as well as aid).

So just call economic points income for simplicity.

A question. Is Rural Electrification an one-time investment or a constant one like Social Welfare?

Would it be possible to have the megaprojects give a set economic boost (+X points/turn) rather than a % gain? Otherwise, they seem to be tilted in favor of large, economically powerful countries.

Would it be possible to have the megaprojects give a set economic boost (+X points/turn) rather than a % gain? Otherwise, they seem to be tilted in favor of large, economically powerful countries.

Actually, in RL, large nations are more able to undertake massive projects either due to the availability of capital, or the land area needed for the project (Especially dams, large structures, bridges, etc.)

Besides, the maximum cost of a Megaproject is 20 points, a figure easily reached if the small nations set aside 2 - 4 points annually for it, or ask for foreign capital (Take Egypt and the Ashwar High Dam for example with USSR financing, material, and engineers).

Besides, Megaprojects aren't meant to be easy or a quick-snap solution. They do take considerable time and investments to complete.

Would it be possible to have the megaprojects give a set economic boost (+X points/turn) rather than a % gain? Otherwise, they seem to be tilted in favor of large, economically powerful countries.

Let me think about that, and do some research Snu.

Rural Electrification is a one time bonus and expense Sharina.

Oil is becoming something we need to keep track of as well. I have a few ideas on that that I am kicking around.

One idea is to require 1 oil resource for every 10 points (or some such figure) of income plus 1 oil resource for every 10 mechanized, motorized, air or naval combat units. Oil resources would be defined, and this would also allow us to simulate what happens when demand outpaces supply in the US for example and forces it to go looking elsewhere for oil.

Its a real issue that has a massive effect on the second half of the 20th Century, so it needs to be accounted for.

Let me think about that, and do some research Snu.

Rural Electrification is a one time bonus and expense Sharina.
I'll hold off on dealing with the tons of additional points I'll be getting from rural electrification this year, then. It should also be decided whether points from megaprojects count against the productivity cap (which is still 2 per 10 million until Tech 7, or I quit). The precedent set by Columbia indicates they do not.

I think megaproject points should be either fixed (as for major canals and roads) or variable with population (as with irrigation and electrification).

I agree with GB on oil. There might be some other strategic resources, but not many that I think we'd need special rules for (maybe rubber, but that might be accounted for on a case-by-case basis).

To simulate Command versus Capitalist economies, we need something to simulate the differences.

Command economies generate a steady income, and can expand quickly. Market economies generate variable income based on tax rates, and recession/inflation/growth cycles. However, market economies have alot of slack that can be used when needed.

So Market and Command economies can both undertake National Efforts and Wartime economies and even Total War economy. However, Command economies do not benefit from a cut in government spending because there is less free (as in not government controlled) capital floating around for use by the civilian economy. So the Market economies get bonuses that the Command economies don't.

So my suggestion is that Market economies get a growth bonus for Cut spending and Peacetime levels, and that they not be allowed to undetake National efforts. They can borrow money instead through Deficit Spending.

Command economies are limited to 5 years maximum on National efforts, and then must have 5 years of peacetime spending after that otherwise will face social and economic consequences.

To simulate Command versus Capitalist economies, we need something to simulate the differences.

Command economies generate a steady income, and can expand quickly. Market economies generate variable income based on tax rates, and recession/inflation/growth cycles. However, market economies have alot of slack that can be used when needed.

So Market and Command economies can both undertake National Efforts and Wartime economies and even Total War economy. However, Command economies do not benefit from a cut in government spending because there is less free (as in not government controlled) capital floating around for use by the civilian economy. So the Market economies get bonuses that the Command economies don't.

So my suggestion is that Market economies get a growth bonus for Cut spending and Peacetime levels, and that they not be allowed to undetake National efforts. They can borrow money instead through Deficit Spending.

Command economies are limited to 5 years maximum on National efforts, and then must have 5 years of peacetime spending after that otherwise will face social and economic consequences.

Note the bold emphasis.

I'm confused. You said Market Economies can undertake National Effort, then you say they can't?

Note the bold emphasis.

I'm confused. You said Market Economies can undertake National Effort, then you say they can't?

I think they shouldn't, that they be able to borrow instead. So from now on, only Command Economies can do national effort except during war time, when the market economies can move from peace to national effort and then to war and total war economies over a 4 year period.

I think they shouldn't, that they be able to borrow instead. So from now on, only Command Economies can do national effort except during war time, when the market economies can move from peace to national effort and then to war and total war economies over a 4 year period.

Works for me. Thanks for clearing that up, GB.

your link didn't work.. but you already got a bump from a megaproject involving your raillines and ports when the Americans built them for you.. Gave you a tech level increase right away.

Yes but I wan to extend the network further to cover all major cities in the USEA.
Here is the link again, quoting does something weird to it http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/USEAmpaRRF.png

Yes but I wan to extend the network further to cover all major cities in the USEA.
Here is the link again, quoting does something weird to it http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/lazyjim/USEAmpaRRF.png

not sure the cost benefit is there.. those are relatively small cities, and you would have to build in some rugged terrain (Central Highlands). A lot of work to get very little gain. Figure 12 points to build, increase your strategic rail movement capability during war (from 2 to 3 units) and thats about all it will do. Will in the long run help you get to tech level 6 faster though

To simulate Command versus Capitalist economies, we need something to simulate the differences.

Command economies generate a steady income, and can expand quickly. Market economies generate variable income based on tax rates, and recession/inflation/growth cycles. However, market economies have alot of slack that can be used when needed.

So Market and Command economies can both undertake National Efforts and Wartime economies and even Total War economy. However, Command economies do not benefit from a cut in government spending because there is less free (as in not government controlled) capital floating around for use by the civilian economy. So the Market economies get bonuses that the Command economies don't.

So my suggestion is that Market economies get a growth bonus for Cut spending and Peacetime levels, and that they not be allowed to undetake National efforts. They can borrow money instead through Deficit Spending.

Command economies are limited to 5 years maximum on National efforts, and then must have 5 years of peacetime spending after that otherwise will face social and economic consequences.
I kind of like this. One could, after all, characterize the New Deal as simply an unprecendented expansion of deficit spending.

I suppose the Union would have a Command Economy by this definition (investment capital is largely controlled by the state - loosely controlled, but still controlled), with some market characteristics.

i am having a lot of problems with this new system, but i am wondering if a mod could comment on my questions made to my build plans in my previous post.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10185528&postcount=976

When should I try to post my 1938 build? GB said to hold off posting builds, but when should we start posting builds? Wed? Thurs? Friday?