NationStates Jolt Archive

One last thing, because I'm tired and not thinking clearly. Factory costs should be doubled now, yes?

And they do go quick. I reserve the right to call for tweaking, but I say we go with this.

I assume we're still getting "free" points for civilian technological research, as well, and otherwise keeping scientific advancement vague.

Post the compiled rules on the first page, if you would. That would help a lot.

I'll have my budget for 1933 in a few minutes, most likely. I actually have seven unspent points! I'm thinking of blowing them on massive vanity projects like giant bronze statues and experimental architecture. Or maybe public broadcasting.

I will tomorrow

One last thing, because I'm tired and not thinking clearly. Factory costs should be doubled now, yes?

most definitely.... I will possibly fiddle with a few other things as well

Actually when you think about it, it's impossible to sustain a level 5 education system (10 points for 10 million people) whatsoever. This is because it'll cost 1 point per million, which is also the maximum industrial potential.

Nation X = 100 million people.

Max Industry of Nation X = 100 points.
Level 5 education of Nation X = 100 points.

That means Nation X can't do anything else, not even maintainence of any military units, nor build anything or even research anything because after Level 5 education, it means Nation X has 0 points left over.


So I propose that education levels directly correspond to points. Here's a table...

Level 1 education = 1 point per 10 million people.
Level 2 education = 2 points per 10 million people.
Level 3 education = 3 points per 10 million people.
Level 4 education = 4 points per 10 million people.
Level 5 education = 5 points per 10 million people.

This linear level system makes more sense than simply doubling everybody's industry. That will make everybody redo all their builds all over again and add more confusion if the overall point totals are suddenly doubled.

Hope that helps.

Also here's a simple table of factory costs that I think should remain assuming we keep the point system as it is and not double everybody's existing points.

12 points during Wartime Mode.
18 points during National Effort Mode.
36 points during Normal Mode.
72 points during Government Cuts Mode.

I think these numbers make sense, both logically and mathematically (18 x 2 = 36, then 36 x 2 = 72). This also makes sense when growth is concerned as well.



People have already posted all their builds for factories, and also for military and other units. I think it's best to grandfather everyone's builds up to this point (year 1933) before implementing any new changes or doubling points or whatever new ideas or concepts come into play. Implementing new changes starting at 1934 will save everybody the frustration of redoing their builds (1927 - 1933), the economic mods getting TG's and demands like "Please check my builds! Are they right?" over and over, save everybody hours of time of hair pulling and trying to re-configure their plans and builds, and allow E20 to keep moving along by not getting tied up in this point system.

First... <snip>

Economic wealth and education go hand in hand.

Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, and I know about private education only helping the elites. Of course, many non-elites also went through WU...a certain Nobel Peace Prize winner comes to mind.

i don't like this idea of grandfathering, and it isn't that hard to edit your builds(i have done it 8 times today and yesterday and i don't complain) or if you are a bigger nation, just wait.
But since we are in the second RL day of 1933 i feel that we must perhaps grandfather for this year just so many people don't get left behind and have invalid builds for the year. I will edit mine once again though, because as i said, i don't like grandfathering!

Well... with roughly only 10 Million people, I'd only have to spend 10 points... leaving the other 17 for whatever I want.

but since we are in the second RL day of 1933 i feel that we must perhaps grandfather for this year just so many people don't get left behind and have invalid builds for the year.
I didn't put up my budget for 1932 until Sunday. People can wait, if they want.

And Sharina, with doubled points, The Productivity Cap is now 20 per million citizens, instead of 10. Level 5 Education and Welfare can therefore cost only half a nation's budget. And all you need to advance a Tech Level is Level 3 for ten years.

REVISED for this stupid upkeep business.

1933 - 11 + 17 = 28p
10 Points to Highest Level of Education, Welfare, and Free Healthcare
Army
2 x 1 Mechanized Corp
1 x 1 Alpine Corp
.5 x 1 Infantry Corp
.5 x 4 Garrison
Airforce
2.5 x 8 Fighters
Navy
1 x Battlecruiser --BEING SCRAPPED--
4 x Heavy Cruiser --BEING SCRAPPED--
.5 x 2 Light Ships (20 Destroyers)
4 x Submarines --BEING SCRAPPED--
UPKEEP: 26.5pts (Well shit.)
Im going to put 4 Fighters Reserve
so... 16.5pts

Leaving 1.5pts left over.

ooc: Fighters are fucking expensive.

OOC: Okay, this recent point system update is a bad idea. I can understand the need for realism, of the effect of a large standing military on the economy; but we already have a system for dealing with the size of our military.

I suppose you folks have already got the idea into your head that we're going to be doing the point system this way from now on, but there is no reason for it. We haven't had any problems with people making more builds than they can afford, and when the problem does arrise down the road, we can solve these problems using the existing system. What we are seeing now is a sacrifice of playability for realism, and it's not a good enough trade for either.

On behalf of all the player frustrated by the continual changes of this game from an RP to a glorified game of Risk: please stop the modifications! You guys are moderators, not game masters. Running the RP isn't your job description, fixing problems when they arrise is. Risk is fun to play and all, but I signed up and have stayed for the diplomatic sparring, the fighting that takes place non ferro, sed verbis, not to metaphoricly count my territories and see whether I get one soldier a turn or three.

Before we impliment the new system, how about we put it to a vote. Iron it out, see if it would work, then the players vote yes or no if they like it, or oppose it. Seeing as how we're the ones playing, we should have a say in what game we're playing. Again, I have no problems with the moderators comming up with a new system, but if they can install it without debate, then we might as well call them GMs.

NB: I'm not insulting anyone, or insinuating anything. I just want to RP without needing a BS in Accounting.

OOC: Okay, this recent point system update is a bad idea. I can understand the need for realism, of the effect of a large standing military on the economy; but we already have a system for dealing with the size of our military.

I suppose you folks have already got the idea into your head that we're going to be doing the point system this way from now on, but there is no reason for it. We haven't had any problems with people making more builds than they can afford, and when the problem does arrise down the road, we can solve these problems using the existing system. What we are seeing now is a sacrifice of playability for realism, and it's not a good enough trade for either.

On behalf of all the player frustrated by the continual changes of this game from an RP to a glorified game of Risk: please stop the modifications! You guys are moderators, not game masters. Running the RP isn't your job description, fixing problems when they arrise is. Risk is fun to play and all, but I signed up and have stayed for the diplomatic sparring, the fighting that takes place non ferro, sed verbis, not to metaphoricly count my territories and see whether I get one soldier a turn or three.

Before we impliment the new system, how about we put it to a vote. Iron it out, see if it would work, then the players vote yes or no if they like it, or oppose it. Seeing as how we're the ones playing, we should have a say in what game we're playing. Again, I have no problems with the moderators comming up with a new system, but if they can install it without debate, then we might as well call them GMs.

NB: I'm not insulting anyone, or insinuating anything. I just want to RP without needing a BS in Accounting.

I second Manarth's opinion especially the last part.

I'm getting to the point in where I may have to use my Supreme Mod powers to put a stop to this constant revision. I want to keep everything as it is for 1927 - 1933, then have all these proposed ideas, suggestions, and tweaks take place in 1934 and then continue from there.

Some of us do not want to keep tweaking our builds every week or every day. We have been waiting for more than two RL weeks for this point system to be fixed up, and it still is being revised and updating. Why can't we just stop this "forced revision" of builds already posted for 1927 - 1933, and just leave it alone? Then we can do all this new stuff in 1934 onwards?

Then we will not have to deal with all these revisions making people frustrated, redo all our builds constantly (7 years worth of builds), have the economic mods deal with "Help me! Is my build OK?" everyday, and so on. This is getting out of hand, seriously.

Once again, leave all the builds for 1927 - 1933 alone, then start implementing the maintainence (which I support) starting in 1934, and doubling the points of everybody starting in 1934, and so on.

I want to get E20 back to the RP, and not dick around trying to figure points, accounting, "Is this right? No? Arrgh, fuck fuck fuck, gotta redo it all over again" BS, and so on. If this keeps up, people will look back upon E20 as a board game or nothing more than glorified stat-based game instead of real RP and interesting alternate historical stuff.

Yes, I am getting quite annoyed with this issue, and yes, it's starting to really show. I want to get back to RP'ing China's development, diplomacy, special characters, and so on- and I'm pretty sure that other E20'ers want to get back to doing these kinds of stuff rather than waste 2 more RL weeks dickering over the point system, its constant revision, and the growing sense of frustration with it.

United Kingdom Builds for 1933 to keep up with all the new changes, done in the style of othe rpeople's posts.

Population: 39.1m

A standard economy, 2% growth, yields 120 points

MILITARY MAINTENENCE

The Army

1 HQ unit
2 9 point mechanized corps
2 8 point armoured cavalry corps
1 field artillery unit
1 amphibious unit (unkown military point value)

TOTAL: 11 points

The Royal Navy

4 modernised Queen Elizabeth class battleships
modernised HMS Hood
2 Modernised Nelson class battleships
5 King George V class battleships
3 Tech 6 Fleet carrier
4 Tech 6 Light carriers
6 Tech 6 submarine units
12 Tech 6 Light ship (140 destroyers)
10 Tech 6 heavy cruiser
20 Tech 6 light cruiser

TOTAL: 38 points

Fleet Air Arm

3 carrier fighter units
4 carrier bomber units (2 torpedo, 2 dive bomber)
7 naval aviation pilots

TOTAL: 10.5 points

The Royal Airforce

4 bombers (Handley Page Hampdens)
4 UK fighters (Hawker Hurricanes)
10 pilot units

TOTAL: 21 points

The Army Reserves
Mostly territorial army units (30 days training per year), old yeomanry cavalry units which are now mechanised and ex-servicemen who are still on the reserves list.

2 8 point mechanised corps
1 HQ unit
1 field artillery unit

TOTAL: 7 points

The Merchant Navy

35 merchant shipping units
10 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 20 Queen Mary sized ocean liners). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6,

Merchant Airforce

3 pilots
1 domestic airline
1 international airline

Other Defences

2 Flak artillery (London, Scapa Flow)
2 Coast artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow)
1 Fortifications (Dover)

TOTAL: 4.5 points

BUILDS

6 points to finish advanced RADAR detection system.

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 20 points on welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

(I am presuming that the NHS can be supported on 5 points per turn, as I don't feel that it warrants the growth reduction associated with 10 points per turn. Historically the NHS didn't (and doesn't) drain the economy much as it is paid for in the form of a small National Insurance contribution take out of everyones wages, having relatively little effect on industry. I wouldn't mind paying up to 10 points per year for it or somewhere in the middle, ie 7 or 8 points, (bearing in mind it should have been functioning for the past 6-7 years anyway and all the equipment etc is paid for) but don't feel the need for a growth slow, i'll leave it up to the mods to decide though.

RESEARCH

16 free points: 8 to finish blood research and 12 to conduct oil exploration research.

TOTAL=120 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

-------------------------------------------------------

I am also presuming that 5 light cruisers=1 light shipping counter and that we pay 1 point per every heavy cruiser but cannot remember if this is correct, please inform me if this is wrong.

updated point system goes into effect for next turn (1933)... do not redo anything at this point. I had not meant for anyone to actually deal with their builds 1926-32, which is why I initially posted economic strengths as of 1932 at the start of this thread.

Oh well

Manarth, I will post what the new system looks like at the start of this thread.... I think it will be simpler than anything previous. Sharina, your proposal doesnt work because the increase in costs is not linear, its closer to geometric. As you will have twice the points, it works out to 2 points per million people as a maximum productivity.

I am trying for a good mix of playability and realism here, and I think this time we may have it.

As for the two week delay, we lost an entire week because of the holidays, which are going to come up again soon. It shouldn't be as bad as when we lost a similar period of time when Jolt crashed.

Ah OK then, i'll hold off until next year. Thanks GB.

Can you give me some help on how much the NHS would cost in welfare points please. It's a very comprehensive system but teh way it works should reduce it's cost and effects somewhat, I outlined the arguement in my previous post. Thanks for any help you can give.

Ah OK then, i'll hold off until next year. Thanks GB.

Can you give me some help on how much the NHS would cost in welfare points please. It's a very comprehensive system but teh way it works should reduce it's cost and effects somewhat, I outlined the arguement in my previous post. Thanks for any help you can give.

the level 10 spending has more to do with the transfer payments than the NHS... I can live with a 5 point NHS for Britian, as its relatively small in size. Larger nations (like the US and the Union) would need 10 points to get the same system because of size. Economies of scale do not work the same way for bureacratic systems as they do for industry. They get less efficient the bigger they are, unlike production.

updated point system goes into effect for next turn (1933)... do not redo anything at this point. I had not meant for anyone to actually deal with their builds 1926-32, which is why I initially posted economic strengths as of 1932 at the start of this thread.

Oh well

Manarth, I will post what the new system looks like at the start of this thread.... I think it will be simpler than anything previous. Sharina, your proposal doesnt work because the increase in costs is not linear, its closer to geometric. As you will have twice the points, it works out to 2 points per million people as a maximum productivity.

I am trying for a good mix of playability and realism here, and I think this time we may have it.

As for the two week delay, we lost an entire week because of the holidays, which are going to come up again soon. It shouldn't be as bad as when we lost a similar period of time when Jolt crashed.

Okay.

I can live with the new changes being implemented by 1933, with all the new changes and such. However, everyone's builds should be left intact for 1927 - 1932 though.

As for the 2 points per million thing, I was under the assumption of the following...

Old System: 1 point per 1 million
New System: 2 points per 1 million

Now, lets look at the education thing.

10 points per 10 million = Level 5 education. In other words, 1 point per 1 million.

What if we halved that to 5 points per 10 million? That would do the exact same thing as if we simply doubled industrial points.

Old System proposal: 5 points per 10 million for Level 5 education (1/2 point per 1 million. roughly half)

New System proposal: 10 points per 10 million for Level 5 education (1 point per 1 million out of 2 max- roughly half)

See what I'm getting at?

Thansk for the input GB, otherwise I may not have been able to afford much beyond the NHS that had already been implemented and promised to people.

I agree, this new sysstem isn't much more complicated and does siomplify many areas of the game. Just need to figure out a good strategy to maintain my current stuff whilst improving the economy, the Navy's a real drag on spending though with it's high maintenence costs. Still if I will demand a big navy I must pay for it...

Did some updating at the start of this thread... more to come as to individual countries.

Sharina, lets try it the way its posted for now and see how it works. Remember, the safety net isn't just education, its also welfare and medical assistance on a massive scale (at the higher spending levels).

Ribenia, the high cost of navies is the principal reason the actual London Navy Treaty got signed in real life.

okay got some questions,
Now that research is not allowed unless at war or national effort, will like if Yugoslavia moves to tech level 6 now will we get all the tech level 5 technology like tactical radios and stuff.

Also, why did industry become SO expensive, i can see an increase, but double? That makes it harder to get them now as you will be spending 1/3rd to a half your points on something you didn't have to before. So i think maybe 1/3rd increase or so.

French Build, 1933

56 points

Growth 2% (Normal Spending)

Military

Three Mechanized Corps Disbanded. One flak artillery and one coastal Artillery unit disbanded.

Three Motorised Corps brought to active duty, deployed to borders and coast.

Upkeep

3 Motorised Units-3 points
1 mechanized Units-2 points
HQ Unit-2 points
Marine Corp-2 points
Alpine Corps-2 points
2 Fighters-4 points
1 Single-Engine Bomber-2 points
1 Transport Unit-2 points
3 Artillery Units-3 points
5 cruisers-5 points
2 Light Ship Counters-1 point
1 Sub Counter-.5 point
4 Pilots-2 points

Upkeep Total: 32.5 points

Military Build

1 Transport Unit (Twin-Engined, for International Airline)-4 points

1 Naval Air Unit (single engined)-2 points

2 Pilots-4 points

Build Total:10 points

Military Sub-Total: 40.5

Domestic Spending

5 Point Education/Safety Net-15 points

Sub-Total: 15 points

TOTAL: 55.5

Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
]
1933 builds: 22 points

Increase Tech Level:2 points (one for education and one for industry)

1xShipping unit: 3 points
Military upkeep:7(rounded from 6.5)
Medical/Welfare 5 points per 10 million people: 5 points
Economy/Industrial reform: 7 points(65 more needed until factory completed)

Points used:22

If got 16 build points?

Oh yeah, I do...

Reserved for the new Italian build

The old list was made with the old system, and I must assume that 1926-1932 doesn't need to be changed. 1933 and on does need to be changed. Being a lazy bastard (and seeing how the system might change a bit), I'm going to wait until Friday to put my build here. I have a feeling that upkeep is going to be a bitch.

Did some updating at the start of this thread... more to come as to individual countries.

Sharina, lets try it the way its posted for now and see how it works. Remember, the safety net isn't just education, its also welfare and medical assistance on a massive scale (at the higher spending levels).

Ribenia, the high cost of navies is the principal reason the actual London Navy Treaty got signed in real life.

DO NOT POST BUILDS YET... STILL WORKING ON SOME KINKS

My suggestion, wait until I post for the US

I have a question: WHat is the point of having a 'reserve' if they fost as much to keep as active duty? Why nto just keep them all active duty?

I think that Reserve units should have their upkeep costs halved as you do not have to pay for fuel and other items that an active unit would require to remain active.

I have a question: WHat is the point of having a 'reserve' if they fost as much to keep as active duty? Why nto just keep them all active duty?

I think that Reserve units should have their upkeep costs halved as you do not have to pay for fuel and other items that an active unit would require to remain active.

Remember, military forces are limited to regular ground unit or 4 air or 4 naval units (naval units are 2 battleships or carriers, or 5 cruisers or 10 destroyers or submarines) per 3 million people during peacetime, plus reserve ground, naval and air units in the same proportion per 1 million people.

in other words, it gives you the possiblity of having a much bigger army on call than you can usually have in the event of an emergency, but you still have to deal with upgrading equipment, weapons, artillery, plus ensure stockpiles of food, ammunition etc are available.

DO NOT POST BUILDS YET... STILL WORKING ON SOME KINKS

My suggestion, wait until I post for the US

When can we expect to be able to get things rolling or so to speak, and get back to actual RP'ing and E20 stuff without worrying about the point system? In other words, how soon can we "post and forget" our builds?

I have a question: WHat is the point of having a 'reserve' if they fost as much to keep as active duty? Why nto just keep them all active duty?

I think that Reserve units should have their upkeep costs halved as you do not have to pay for fuel and other items that an active unit would require to remain active.

I had the same thoughts myself. Reserve units could be essentially said to be stockpiles of weapons, ammo, vehicles, hardware, etc. that aren't manned or employed 24/7 like active units are.

So I support Rodenka's idea thjat reserve units have half the maintainence costs as active duty units, but as a consquence, take double the time to mobilize and deploy as active units do. Pretty simple when you think about it.

I have a question: WHat is the point of having a 'reserve' if they fost as much to keep as active duty? Why nto just keep them all active duty?

I think that Reserve units should have their upkeep costs halved as you do not have to pay for fuel and other items that an active unit would require to remain active.
I already asked about this. I'd like reserve units to have half maintenance cost, too, but I'm deferring to the military experts on this issue. Reserve points don't count against active duty population-based limits. That's apparently the only advantage. Although how anyone is going to get a military that big with units being as expensive as they is another question.

I agree with Galveston Bay, and in fact have been saying the same thing for some time now, don't post your builds prematurely, and you won't have to tweak them.

None of us want this to turn into a board game. Rather, we're trying to implement a standardized framework for making economic decisions that, believe it or not, allows players more control over their own countries' destinies. Well do I remember the neverending volley of accusations regarding the WarMod's lack of objectivity in the most recent conflict. So long as we use solely personal arbitration, there will always be those kinds of issues.

The point system is not, and never will be, perfect. It isn't supposed to be. It is simply supposed to effectively solve some chronic RP problems that we've been having for some time now.

Besides, all this "nonsense" and argument and tweaking has effectively kept us from having a war for, oh, eight game years now. That's the longest E20 has gone without a major conflict, and frankly I'm pretty happy about that.

Once completed, a factory adds 2 build points a year at peacetime spending levels (4 for national effort, 6 during wartime)

The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) is 2 points per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further.

The correct numbers would be the following (with the doubling of all points taken into account)...

One Factory Equals:

2 points in Government-Cuts mode.
4 points in Normal mode.
8 points in National Effort mode.
12 points in Wartime mode.

This is to reflect the doubling of all points up to date, if I'm not mistaken.

Remember, military forces are limited to regular ground unit or 4 air or 4 naval units (naval units are 2 battleships or carriers, or 5 cruisers or 10 destroyers or submarines) per 3 million people during peacetime, plus reserve ground, naval and air units in the same proportion per 1 million people.

in other words, it gives you the possiblity of having a much bigger army on call than you can usually have in the event of an emergency, but you still have to deal with upgrading equipment, weapons, artillery, plus ensure stockpiles of food, ammunition etc are available.



The Reserves Maintaining and upgrading equipments?? ensuring stockpiles of food(Actually that should be maintained as part of the active duty) And the reserves use VERY little supplies.


(remember I am a member of the national guard and have firsthand experience)

Besides, all this "nonsense" and argument and tweaking has effectively kept us from having a war for, oh, eight game years now. That's the longest E20 has gone without a major conflict, and frankly I'm pretty happy about that.

Ah, but you're forgetting the 16 years between 1908 (end of Great War 1) and 1924 (start of Great War 2). ;)

I already asked about this. I'd like reserve units to have half maintenance cost, too, but I'm deferring to the military experts on this issue. Reserve points don't count against active duty population-based limits. That's apparently the only advantage. Although how anyone is going to get a military that big with units being as expensive as they is another question.

I agree with Galveston Bay, and in fact have been saying the same thing for some time now, don't post your builds prematurely, and you won't have to tweak them.

None of us want this to turn into a board game. Rather, we're trying to implement a standardized framework for making economic decisions that, believe it or not, allows players more control over their own countries' destinies. Well do I remember the neverending volley of accusations regarding the WarMod's lack of objectivity in the most recent conflict. So long as we use solely personal arbitration, there will always be those kinds of issues.

The point system is not, and never will be, perfect. It isn't supposed to be. It is simply supposed to effectively solve some chronic RP problems that we've been having for some time now.

Besides, all this "nonsense" and argument and tweaking has effectively kept us from having a war for, oh, eight game years now. That's the longest E20 has gone without a major conflict, and frankly I'm pretty happy about that.

as a reservist I disagree with GB on his issue about cost.

different issue though


My question is, did all the players ask for this much control? I sure as hell didn't.

Ah, but you're forgetting the 16 years between 1908 (end of Great War 1) and 1924 (start of Great War 2). ;)
Well, yes. That was when the Union and Germany had their bloody Revolutions, though.

My question is, did all the players ask for this much control? I sure as hell didn't.
Some players did, and many others simply complained about the Moderators' objectivity when making assessments regarding economic development.

Um, I suppose if you want to opt out, we could just use historical data for your country instead.

Some players did, and many others simply complained about the Moderators' objectivity when making assessments regarding economic development.

Um, I suppose if you want to opt out, we could just use historical data for your country instead.

This is way, way over my head. It reminds me too much of Hearts of Iron II's economy system, just much more confusing. In that game at least, you can invade other nations and take their infastructure (factories produce the same goods for whatever nation owns them, after all), unless it's destroyed.

I'd like it if my nation would pretty much follow a historical precedent (which is kinda hard in my situation, since India didn't exist until 1947, well after present day), or what a mod would think best, and I would be able to add in whatever plans I personally would want every once in a while. I want to have fun when playing E20; not feel like I'm doing a chore.

The Reserves Maintaining and upgrading equipments?? ensuring stockpiles of food(Actually that should be maintained as part of the active duty) And the reserves use VERY little supplies.


(remember I am a member of the national guard and have firsthand experience)

The National Guard maintains rather sizeable amounts of equipment, and the Department of Defense keeps rather vasts stocks of food and ammunition ... just not at local levels. Reserves use a lot of supplies when mobilized, that is what the supplies are for.

some issues that developed over the course the game...

constant questions about military forces, and either too much information or too little. Questionable military forces (as regards to size, compisition, capabalities, and equipment), fleets and major warships that shouldn't exist, unwillingness by some players to research, some blatant godmodding (those people were axed),

direct attacks on my objectivity (which is why I had to literally number crunch and explain move by move so much of the 2nd Great War), questions about how to upgrade tech level, etc.....

Hence the point system for builds, and then some players wanted to tinker with other facets of their economies... hence the additional rules.

Like Lightning Star said, E20 shouldnt be a chore. As a recent addition to the gang, I can say I was attracted to this RP because of how entertaining it looks, and it certainly still is. I really appreciate all the work you and all the mods are doing GB, this is an amazingly believeable alternate history, but I am afraid that we may degenerate into concentrating on the minutia of economics, and jumping half decades at a time at the expense of the IC politics and other things. At a certain point, some details should probably be let go for the good of the overall feel.

What I think the point system use in WWII taught us is that no matter what system is used, there will be accusations against the mods objectivity as long as people start losing. Point systems and so called "objective" ways of measuring things are still going to be questioned and argued with.

With that in mind, what is the point then of having the "objective" system? Sure, it produces a set of rules, but such that they can be exploited by twinkers, aren't explained well enough, or cause confusion. Or in some circumstances just aren't indicative of the way the world works.

Why don't we just go back to the good old days of "I have this" "I build that" "I improve my education system" and let the moderators, who have too much to do, step in when a problem arises. It seems to me like all the mods, and GB in particular, have been working far too much since the point system was implimented. It's one thing if we go to the point system during wartime, but we were doing very well in peace, before WWII, without it.

I'm going to be perfectly frank, I'd love to see the point system die a quick and painless death. I'd much rather play an open-ended RP where all the moderators had to do was correct problems when they arose, which is what the moderators job should be. Again, if we were going to use a point system, I think it should be something that everyone liked and understood, or failing that, something that was already complete and easy to pick up.

Seeing as how the point system is neither of the above, I don't understand why we are still using it. Let's just go back to the way things were, and if any of the moderators become iritated with complaints they can go back to just running their nation and let someone else pick up their job.

Let's RP people! OOC is for losers!

Also, assuming the continuation of the upkeep model, while Reserve troops have the same equipment and such as thier active duty counterparts, they should have less upkeep as they don't have to be paid, housed, and supplied for the vast majority of the year, which is a significant difference, but are pushed up to full maintenence when they enter conflict. You can't honestly tell me with a strieght face that Reserve Troops require exactly the same investment every year that Regular Troops do. It's not just equipment, it's not just "supplies" getting them ready for combat, it's also training, and a living wage.

What I think the point system use in WWII taught us is that no matter what system is used, there will be accusations against the mods objectivity as long as people start losing. Point systems and so called "objective" ways of measuring things are still going to be questioned and argued with.

With that in mind, what is the point then of having the "objective" system? Sure, it produces a set of rules, but such that they can be exploited by twinkers, aren't explained well enough, or cause confusion. Or in some circumstances just aren't indicative of the way the world works.

Why don't we just go back to the good old days of "I have this" "I build that" "I improve my education system" and let the moderators, who have too much to do, step in when a problem arises. It seems to me like all the mods, and GB in particular, have been working far too much since the point system was implimented. It's one thing if we go to the point system during wartime, but we were doing very well in peace, before WWII, without it.

I'm going to be perfectly frank, I'd love to see the point system die a quick and painless death. I'd much rather play an open-ended RP where all the moderators had to do was correct problems when they arose, which is what the moderators job should be. Again, if we were going to use a point system, I think it should be something that everyone liked and understood, or failing that, something that was already complete and easy to pick up.

Seeing as how the point system is neither of the above, I don't understand why we are still using it. Let's just go back to the way things were, and if any of the moderators become iritated with complaints they can go back to just running their nation and let someone else pick up their job.

Let's RP people! OOC is for losers!

Also, assuming the continuation of the upkeep model, while Reserve troops have the same equipment and such as thier active duty counterparts, they should have less upkeep as they don't have to be paid, housed, and supplied for the vast majority of the year, which is a significant difference, but are pushed up to full maintenence when they enter conflict. You can't honestly tell me with a strieght face that Reserve Troops require exactly the same investment every year that Regular Troops do. It's not just equipment, it's not just "supplies" getting them ready for combat, it's also training, and a living wage.

maintanence doesn't factor in salaries, its more for equipment, vehicles etc and the a relatively simple way to show the costs of constantly improving the capabilities of reserve (and regular) units without having players have essentially repurchase them periodically. As an infantry corps costs 2 points to replace or build, a cost of .25 or .5 points means every 4 or 8 years you replace their equipment etc.... which is very reasonable.


The main reason at this juncture to use the point system is that now we have such divergence from the main timeline its has become difficult to use historical units and capabilities. Europe and East Asia are completely different from 1933 historical Europe, we have fought two massive wars, and the economic landscape is also hugely different.

Without some kind of baseline, it is getting difficult to realistically estimate or analyze what is reasonable. A huge amount of research is needed to make adjustments or even to keep things reasonable without a point system, or you have to trust the few of use who have done the most research and have the most education in history and related fields to make inspired guesses.

A point system is a lot simpler.

maintanence doesn't factor in salaries, its more for equipment, vehicles etc and the a relatively simple way to show the costs of constantly improving the capabilities of reserve (and regular) units without having players have essentially repurchase them periodically. As an infantry corps costs 2 points to replace or build, a cost of .25 or .5 points means every 4 or 8 years you replace their equipment etc.... which is very reasonable.


The main reason at this juncture to use the point system is that now we have such divergence from the main timeline its has become difficult to use historical units and capabilities. Europe and East Asia are completely different from 1933 historical Europe, we have fought two massive wars, and the economic landscape is also hugely different.

Without some kind of baseline, it is getting difficult to realistically estimate or analyze what is reasonable. A huge amount of research is needed to make adjustments or even to keep things reasonable without a point system, or you have to trust the few of use who have done the most research and have the most education in history and related fields to make inspired guesses.

A point system is a lot simpler.



Ok you have shown how LITTLE you know about Reserves. Every 4 to 8 years for new equipment my ass. The only reason the National Guard and Army Reserve is getting good equipment now is that they are constantly being deployed to war. therefore constantly on an active duty status.

You don't have to spend as much on maintence when you only traing 38 days a year. Give or take 5 days or so.

Your paying out 1/10th of a paycheck per year. Plus you are not paying for healthcare, subsidized housing(I REALLY LOVE BASIC ALLOWANCE FOR HOUSING) Meals. When a Humvee is driven possibly 5 days a year outside of the 2 week annual training. It doesn't cost a lot to maintain. It just sits, literaly gathering dust. And I'm in one of the BEST funded State National Guards(Ohio) in the most highly deployed unit(437th MP BN). During the winter, we start the engines for about 10 minutes once a month. now tell me that costs the same as running a vehicle at least 3-4 months out of the year through intensive training, I,E. Active duty army.


The productions dates on our Humvees are all in the range between 1986-1989

except for the Up armored we used to have(introduced to active army in 1999) that we got in early 2003 and come fall 2003, 1st Armored took them away from us.


And this is the unit in my state that averages at least one activation of some sort every year.


there are units that have not been activated in 10 years. before the invasion of Iraq.


It takes on average 2-3 months to Requip, retrain a reserve unit for Active duty in Iraq.


And don't even get me started on Inactive Ready Reserve.


And the US Army Reserve is in worse shape than the national guard since they get leftover funding from the active army and we get ours from state budgets.

maintanence doesn't factor in salaries, its more for equipment, vehicles etc and the a relatively simple way to show the costs of constantly improving the capabilities of reserve (and regular) units without having players have essentially repurchase them periodically. As an infantry corps costs 2 points to replace or build, a cost of .25 or .5 points means every 4 or 8 years you replace their equipment etc.... which is very reasonable.


The main reason at this juncture to use the point system is that now we have such divergence from the main timeline its has become difficult to use historical units and capabilities. Europe and East Asia are completely different from 1933 historical Europe, we have fought two massive wars, and the economic landscape is also hugely different.

Without some kind of baseline, it is getting difficult to realistically estimate or analyze what is reasonable. A huge amount of research is needed to make adjustments or even to keep things reasonable without a point system, or you have to trust the few of use who have done the most research and have the most education in history and related fields to make inspired guesses.

A point system is a lot simpler.

A point system may be alot simpler; but it's still confusing. It also feels like I'm doing alot of work here; I do alot of work in my normal life, and I still do feel dedicated to playing E20, but I don't want to over-exert myself calculating "What if I put that point here?" It's not as bad for me now, I agree, but when India progresses to have a thousand points, I'm going to go insane.

And the US Army Reserve is in worse shape than the national guard since they get leftover funding from the active army and we get ours from state budgets.

first, be polite, or be gone.

Second, tech level 8 vehicles and equipment (which is what the US National Guard has now) are a lot more stable and durable then they were in 1933. In addition, your radios, electronic equipment, and a lot of the parts of your vehicles are continually replaced or updated. They cost more per pound then your Hummer does, which is a 1970s design built in the 1980s for requirements determined during the 1960s.

Third, the equipment in your unit is relatively cheap. Consider how much it costs to contually replace the electronics and weapons systems for the aviation, artillery, and armored battalions.

Also, read James Dunnigan, "How to Make War" (all three editions), who I am using as my source.

The US military no longer replaces airframes and vehicles with completely new designs very often. The F15A first saw service in the 1970s, the C130 first saw service in the 1950s. The F15E and C130J would be called something else entirely in the Soviet or old US system. They may look the same, but have completely different engines, electronics, and damn near everything else.

The same 35 year period in the US Army Air Corps and Air Force(1920 -1955)
saw nearly 100 different fighters. Sometimes aircraft were obsolete between the time they entered production and entered service.

Reserve units are still damn cheap, especially for infantry, and I am not keeping track of salaries, food etc. Just the cost of frequently modernizing them in the mid 20th Centur.

gone.


You take your book

I'll take my real world experience (BTW I have Friends in the 1-107th Armored Cavalry and 1-147 Infantry Battalions and talking with them, everything else still applies.)

I'm out too.

Like Lightning Star said, E20 shouldnt be a chore. As a recent addition to the gang, I can say I was attracted to this RP because of how entertaining it looks, and it certainly still is. I really appreciate all the work you and all the mods are doing GB, this is an amazingly believeable alternate history, but I am afraid that we may degenerate into concentrating on the minutia of economics, and jumping half decades at a time at the expense of the IC politics and other things. At a certain point, some details should probably be let go for the good of the overall feel.

I agree with some of that.... and would like the IC stuff to resume again.

US Spending 1933
US Population (1930 census) 130 million
192 production points available (normal spending, +2% growth for next year) plus 6 points for the Philippines, 30 points for shipping and airlines. 228 points total

Military maintenance
110.5 points
National Safety net (level 3 spending)(social security, public university system)
39 points

finish 3 heavy cruisers (18 points)
start 2 battleships (improved North Carolina class)(12 points)
build 1 light ship (10 destroyers)(8 points)
3 submarine units (30 submarines)(24 points
start 1 Fleet Carrier (Ranger)(4 points)
10 points to Japan (represents US oil and steel exports to Japan)

2.5 points left over (used to help Morocco and Algeria pay for their military forces)

Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
Population:13 million
1933 builds: 31 points(22 base+1 Merchant Marine+8 points from Union)

Reform:
Economy/Industrial reform: 14 points(22 more needed until factory completed)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep:4
Medical/Welfare 5 points per 10 million people: 10 points

National Builds:
1xShipping unit: 3 points

Points used:31

Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
Population:13 million
1933 builds: 22 points

Reform:
Increase Tech Level:2 points (one for education and one for industry)
Economy/Industrial reform: 2 points(70 more needed until factory completed)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep:7(rounded from 6.5)
Medical/Welfare 5 points per 10 million people: 10 points

National Builds:
1xShipping unit: 3 points

Points used:22


ooc
you don't have to spend points on tech level advancements any more, Vas and I are now handling tech increases (for playability sake)

Edited to reflect said statement, i will be editing my nation main page in a few minutes with my entire military broken down and will post it on the military page, so you can look over that and give me the yay or nay on equipment etc for 1935-1936.

Edited to reflect said statement, i will be editing my nation main page in a few minutes with my entire military broken down and will post it on the military page, so you can look over that and give me the yay or nay on equipment etc for 1935-1936.

looked fine in the military thread

The Republic of Gran Colombia
Population:10.6 million
1933 builds: 24 points base, plus 17 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 26.5p

National Builds:
1.5 xShipping unit: 4.5 points

French Spending, 1933

72 points from factories (36 factories@2 points each) +18 from shipping (18 shipping counters) +1 from airline (2% growth)

91 points total

Military Spending, 1933

1 Flak Artillery Unit disbanded.

1 Mechanized corp disbanded

Maintence

1 HQ(reserve)-1 point

3 Mechanized Corp(active)-3 points

3 Motorized Corp(Reserve)-1.5 points

1 Alpine Corp(active)-1 point

1 Marine Corp(reserve)-1 point

2 Flak Artillery Units(reserve)-2 points

2 Coastal Artillery Units(active)-2 points

2 Sub Counters(10 each, TL 6, reserve)-.5 point

5 cruisers(TL 6)-1.25 points

2 light ship counters(TL 6)-.5 point

2 Fighter Units (D.510)-2 points

1 bomber unit(LN.411)-1 point

1 transport (Single-engine)-1 point

4 pilots-1 point

Sub-Total: 17.75 (Round up to 18)

Military Construction

Upgrade 3 Motorized Corp to Mechanized Corp-3 points

1 Mechanized Anti-Tank unit-3 points

1 Mechanized Field Artillery unit-3 points

4 pilots-8 points

2 Naval/Torpedo Bombers-4 points

1 fighter unit(single-engined, D.510)-2 points

1 transport unit(twin-engined)-4 points

Sub-Total: 27 points

Military Sub-Total: 45 points

Domestic Spending

5-point Education/Safety Net-20 points (39 million, rounded up)

26-point surplus

Just so we're all totally clear on costs.

To acquire 1 production point from industry costs:

72 points at Reduced Spending (with additional 5% growth rate)
36 points at Normal Spending (with additional 2% growth rate)
18 points at National Effort (with additional 1% growth rate)
12 points on War Footing (no natural growth, but special bonuses)

Maximum production from industry at Normal Spending equals 2 points per million people in economy.

To acquire 1 production point from maritime shipping costs 3 points. Maximum production points from maritime shipping equals thirty. Shipping incomes are unaffected by spending levels.

I have a huge favour to ask someone, does anyone want to do Luxembourgs spending for me as I am completely baffled by this ever more confusing system, any takers?

I have a huge favour to ask someone, does anyone want to do Luxembourgs spending for me as I am completely baffled by this ever more confusing system, any takers?
Well, your maximum number of production points is 6, due to your tiny population of 3 million, and the fact that you're landlocked and can't get any points from maritime shipping. That should be pretty easy to spend.

Do you want an army? If not, I'd go ahead and spend it all on welfare or scientific research.

Just so we're all totally clear on costs.

To acquire 1 production point from industry costs:

72 points at Reduced Spending (with additional 5% growth rate)
36 points at Normal Spending (with additional 2% growth rate)
18 points at National Effort (with additional 1% growth rate)
12 points on War Footing (no natural growth, but special bonuses)

Maximum production from industry at Normal Spending equals 1 point per million people in economy.

To acquire 1 production point from maritime shipping costs 3 points. Maximum production points from maritime shipping equals thirty. Shipping incomes are unaffected by spending levels.

Wait a minute. GB said its now 2 points per million people, instead of 1 point per million.

Now we're back to the old system of 1 point per million, not 2 points? What gives?

Well, your maximum number of production points is 6, due to your tiny population of 3 million, and the fact that you're landlocked and can't get any points from maritime shipping. That should be pretty easy to spend.

Do you want an army? If not, I'd go ahead and spend it all on welfare or scientific research.

now i'm even more confused, on the front-page it says I have 20 (whether or not that's my production points, I just don't know) things, so where did this 6 come from, I also can't find anything about welfare and the Education system is overly confusing, why do we have multiple ranks, ugh.

2. The Union has an unanticipated budget surplus of thirty production points. Eight will go to Yugoslavia for discretionary investment, eight will go to Hungary and ten will go to the Middle Eastern Union for investment in public- and worker-owned enterprises, and four will go to Korea for social services.

Are we allowed foreign investment now? I didn't think that was until 1935, not that i'm going to be doing much of it before I cut half of my military so I can actually build something!

Im so confused about what is going on that my head hurts.

Are we allowed foreign investment now? I didn't think that was until 1935, not that i'm going to be doing much of it before I cut half of my military so I can actually build something!

yes (the short answer)

Wait a minute. GB said its now 2 points per million people, instead of 1 point per million.

You're right. It's been edited.
now i'm even more confused, on the front-page it says I have 20 (whether or not that's my production points, I just don't know) things, so where did this 6 come from, I also can't find anything about welfare and the Education system is overly confusing, why do we have multiple ranks, ugh.
The front page is profoundly wrong, and has been for some time. It says the Union has only 110 points in 1932, for instance, when in fact we had 417, and that under the old system. Ignore that post - and GB, please either edit or delete it.

Back to you, Kaduna. Look at the Population Post, you'll see that Burgundy has a population of 3 million people. Now look at that quote in this post, which says that a nation's maximum productive capacity equals two points per million people. That makes your maximum baseline capacity 6 points.

Education and welfare spending, as posted, applies mostly to countries with populations of more than ten million. There are five levels of social spending (is that really so hard to comprehend?), and in your case spending 3 points would give you the highest rating - a total welfare state. I don't know what your military looks like, but it would have to pretty small anyway.

Are we allowed foreign investment now? I didn't think that was until 1935, not that i'm going to be doing much of it before I cut half of my military so I can actually build something!
Now that all questions of domestic spending have been settled, we can do foreign investment. Note also that maintenance costs have been reduced from GB's original figures.

To see maintenance costs, look at the unit costs post on the front page.

Personally, I think the whole front page could use some editing to make it more comprehensible.

You're right. It's been edited.

The front page is profoundly wrong, and has been for some time. It says the Union has only 110 points in 1932, for instance, when in fact we had 417, and that under the old system. Ignore that post - and GB, please either edit or delete it..

working on it, hope to finish it tomorrow

working on it, hope to finish it tomorrow
Hooray!

Hopefully, people will start being less confused. Really, the system isn't as complicated as it might look.

alright, i'm happy, one more question, I see some people with an overview of spending for five years, do I only update spending every five years or does this 5 year thing operate on a yearly basis?

Actually, that was for the five-year period in between the end of the war and now. Now it's on a yearly basis.

French Placeholder (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=10018438#post10018438) updated.

alright, i'm happy, one more question, I see some people with an overview of spending for five years, do I only update spending every five years or does this 5 year thing operate on a yearly basis?

updated

also you don't have to do five year plans. Its up to you.

China's build for the year of 1933.

1933:

Income: 385 points.

184 points from factories (368 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

10 factories (360 points)

15 points for maintainence (I don't know my exact maintainence cost per year).

If any extra points from over-spending on maintainence, then I wish to divert them into a 11th factory.

----------------------------------

The 1933 build is modified from my old build that Vas approved last week. I multiplied my production and factory expeditures by a factor of 2 as per the new point doubling system (and factory costs as well).

Rumanian Spending for 1933

Production Points:20 (Pop 10 x2)
Shipping Points: 1
Total Points:21
2% Growth

Military Upkeep
4 Motorised Corps(tech 5)-1 Point(.25 Points each)
1 Light Ship Counter(Tech 5) -.25 points
1 Pilot-.25 Points
1 Fighter Unit-1 Point

Total Military Upkeep: 2.5 Points

Military Build
2 Light Cruisers(Tech 5)- 2 Points
1 Heavy Cruiser(Tech 5)-2 Points (2 years to Completetion)

Total:4 Points

Domstic Spending
Education and Saftey Net Program-5 Points
3 Shipping Units-9 Points

Total Spending: 20.5 Points
Surplus: .5 Points

Burgundy 1933

6 Points

(3 Points) 3 Malitia
(3 Points) Education

China's build for the year of 1933.

1933:

Income: 385 points.

184 points from factories (368 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

10 factories (360 points)

15 points for maintainence (I don't know my exact maintainence cost per year).

If any extra points from over-spending on maintainence, then I wish to divert them into a 11th factory.

----------------------------------

The 1933 build is modified from my old build that Vas approved last week. I multiplied my production and factory expeditures by a factor of 2 as per the new point doubling system (and factory costs as well).

how did you end up with an economy the size of the US economy again? Show me the link

1926:

Income: 78 points (War-time economy) + 0 points in reserve.

Expeditures:

2 Garrisons (4 points)
5 Fighters (10 points)
3 Factories (36 points)
4 HQ units (24 points)
Repairs to my Battleships (2 points)

Scrap my 6 Infantry Corps (and if I did build new infantry corps, convert them to garrisons so that I do not need to build the 2 new garrisons).

This should give me my standing army of 7 Garrisons, 5 HQ's, 6 Fighters, and my Navy repaired (as well as 3 shipping units I have). My HQ's should be finished mid-1927 at the latest, given that I started building 2 new ones in June / July after the war ended. However, my question is my 3 factories built in 1926 should have given me 16 industry points a turn by 1927 if the war did continue. However, with a peace-time economy starting in 1927...

16 points x 6 turns = 96 points. (Assuming war-time economy in 1927 which doesn't actually happen)

96 points divided by 3 for 1927 (revert to peace-time from war economy reduces points by 1/3)

Thus, I should have 32 points during peace-time for 1927. I'll implement this in my builds- if you have any objections, please do share. :)

Correction... in 1926, China was getting 13 points a turn during wartime, which adds up to 78 points annually which becomes 26 points annually using normal spending

[ .


Major correction .....

how did you end up with an economy the size of the US economy again? Show me the link
Sharina's last build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9960555&postcount=110), which I approved.

Making allowances for changes to the system, and grandfathering his reserve points as they apply up to 1933, in 1933 he should have a baseline production of 216 points (182 from industry plus 34 from commerce). He's apprently trying to continue a National Effort, which would give him 398 (364 from industry plus 34 from commerce) points to play with. And he's not spending any on Social Services, I think. That might come back to haunt him.

Sharina's last build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9960555&postcount=110), which I approved.

Making allowances for changes to the system, and grandfathering his reserve points as they apply up to 1933, in 1933 he should have a baseline production of 216 points (182 from industry plus 34 from commerce). He's apprently trying to continue a National Effort, which would give him 398 (364 from industry plus 34 from commerce) points to play with. And he's not spending any on Social Services, I think. That might come back to haunt him.

I have a plan. Besides, who says National Effort has to be divided into 5 year increments? ;)

Besides, China needs 4x as much points as the USA to maintain social security services. Hence me trying to gain 200 peace-time points so that I'll be able to afford these social security, education, healthcare, etc. stuff that I could not do earlier with just 25 - 100 points.

National Efforts don't have to be divided into five year increments, but they do represent a time of working increased hours, low (or absent) workplace safety and environmental standards, minimal (or absent) workers' rights, decreased wages - in short, an Industrial Revolution, with entire families earning bare subsistence wages working over a hundred hours a week. People don't endure that easily. That's why Social Services are important, and that's why National Efforts can't go on forever. Strikes, civil unrest, labor agitation, and democratic agitation are likely to become crucial issues soon, and have probably been ongoing at least somewhat anyway (as they probably were in the Union, too - one of the reasons why we Reduced Spending, as I explained in my post).

Also, you haven't spent a dime on education (under the old system). This will set back your technology, since you'll have basically only unskilled labor in your factories. And it should probably adversely affect productivity.

In short, you'll want to start including education and social services in your budget in 1933, or you're likely to start suffering ugly consequences. Realistically, you can't just build factories without any other social support for them.

National Efforts don't have to be divided into five year increments, but they do represent a time of working increased hours, low (or absent) workplace safety and environmental standards, minimal (or absent) workers' rights, decreased wages - in short, an Industrial Revolution, with entire families earning bare subsistence wages working over a hundred hours a week. People don't endure that easily. That's why Social Services are important, and that's why National Efforts can't go on forever. Strikes, civil unrest, labor agitation, and democratic agitation are likely to become crucial issues soon, and have probably been ongoing at least somewhat anyway (as they probably were in the Union, too - one of the reasons why we Reduced Spending, as I explained in my post).

Also, you haven't spent a dime on education (under the old system). This will set back your technology, since you'll have basically only unskilled labor in your factories. And it should probably adversely affect productivity.

In short, you'll want to start including education and social services in your budget in 1933, or you're likely to start suffering ugly consequences. Realistically, you can't just build factories without any other social support for them.

What do you suggest then? I'm looking at 100 or even 200 points per turn for education PLUS social services PLUS healthcare PLUS unit maintainence. What do I do then? If I go to that, I won't have any points to build anything or expand my economy (assuming it costs 200 points for all domestic stuff) assuming I end my National Effort mode and revert to Normal mode.

I need far more points for domestic programs and efforts than anyone else, even India solely because I have half-a-billion people in my nation. I already sacrificed my military for domestic stuff (hence me not building any new military stuff or any tanks or such).

Well, of course, the RL China was unable to satisfactorily resolve those issues, and collapsed in a forty-year long civil war that eventually resulted in a Communist Revolution.

I'd suggest easing off your expansion, maybe looking outside for investment.

Japanese build

A bunch of the naval units will replace older warships, such as tech level 5 submarines and destroyers. Points accumulated from natural growth are outside the ().

10x points for 5 pilots

1933 (86 points--34 commerce/empire, 26 x 2 normal points)
29.5x points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
36x points for a factory
14x points for 5 fleet carriers

1934 (90 points--34 commerce/empire 28x2 normal)
29.5 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
36x points for a factory
18x points for 5 fleet carriers

1935 (94 points--34 commerce/empire, 30x2 normal)
29.5 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
36x points for a factory
8x points for 5 fleet carriers
10x points for 5 carrier bombers and fighters (division shown in military thread)

1936 (98 points--34 commerce/empire, 32x2 normal)
33.25 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
36x points for a factory
10x points for 5 pilots
13x points for a factory

1937 (102 points--34 commerce/empire, 34x2 normal)
34.5 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
36x points for a factory
12x points upgrading 6 infantry corps to motorized
6x points for amphibious assault fleet

1938 (106 points--34 commerce/empire, 36x2 normal)
36.5 points to upkeep
(place holder, reminding me how much upkeep I have)

Vas, I really appreciate your patience with me as I try to figure out how this system works. I know I have posted like 100000 different builds so far, but hopefully I'm narrowing and fixing it up to a final build that everybody will have no problem with. I'm trying to get as many points as I can, not for war, but merely to maintain a constant education and welfare program for China. So far, China needs somewhere between 100 - 110 points for education, and the same amount of points for welfare (should come up to a total of 200 - 230 points, a quite hefty amount). On the other hand, the USA only needs 26 points for education and about the same for welfare. See the large discrepancy? See why China needs to massively industralize just to afford to maintain its civilian sector with any reasonable amount of efficiency.

At any rate, here's my revised build with Vas's fixes implemented...

1926:

Income: 78 points (War-time economy) + 0 points in reserve.

Expeditures:

2 Garrisons (4 points)
5 Fighters (10 points)
3 Factories (36 points)
4 HQ units (24 points)
Repairs to my Battleships (2 points)

Scrap my 6 Infantry Corps (and if I did build new infantry corps, convert them to garrisons so that I do not need to build the 2 new garrisons).

This should give me my standing army of 7 Garrisons, 5 HQ's, 6 Fighters, and my Navy repaired (as well as 3 shipping units I have). My HQ's should be finished mid-1927 at the latest, given that I started building 2 new ones in June / July after the war ended. However, my question is my 3 factories built in 1926 should have given me 16 industry points a turn by 1927 if the war did continue. However, with a peace-time economy starting in 1927...

16 points x 6 turns = 96 points. (Assuming war-time economy in 1927 which doesn't actually happen)

96 points divided by 3 for 1927 (revert to peace-time from war economy reduces points by 1/3)

Thus, I should have 32 points during peace-time for 1927. I'll implement this in my builds- if you have any objections, please do share. :)

1927: (Begin first National Effort program)

Income: 65 points + 0 points in reserve.

32 points from industry (64 points under National Effort)
1 point from 3 shipping units.

Expeditures:

21 Merchant Marine (63 points)
1 point in reserve.

1928:

Income: 76 points + 1 in reserve.

32 points from industry (64 points under National Effort).
12 points from 24 shipping units.

Expeditures:

5 Merchant Marine (15 points)
2 Factory (36 points)
2 Pilot units (4 points)
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

15 points in reserve.

1929:

Income: 89 points + 15 points in reserve.

36 points from factories (72 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

5 factories (90 points)

14 points in reserve.

1930:

Income: 109 points + 14 points in reserve.

46 points from factories (92 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

6 factories (108 points)

15 points in reserve.

1931: (Last year of first National Effort program)

Income: 133 points + 15 points in reserve.

58 points from factories (116 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

8 factories (144 points)

4 points in reserve.

1932: (Start of second- and probably final- National Effort program)

Income: 165 points + 4 points in reserve.

74 points from factories (148 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

9 factories (162 points).

7 points in reserve.

1933:

Income: 201 points + 7 points in reserve.

92 points from factories (184 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

11 factories (198 points)

10 points in reserve.

1934:

Income: 245 points + 10 points in reserve.

114 points from factories (228 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

Undecided.

---------------------------------------

Hopefully that should fix things. I did not double my points from shipping units and airlines. I'm going by 2 shipping units = 1 point, so 30 shipping units should be the max for point generation (although I do agree that extra shipping units over 30 wouldn't hurt for insurance purposes).

I multiplied the factories correctly so far, I believe. I added 2 points per factory (for peacetime points) then doubled the sum for my National Effort points (4 points per factory, not 2).

That aside, I have settled down on reducing my Chinese standing army to 7 garrisons, 6 fighter units, 5 HQ's, 2 Capital Counters, and 15 Light Ship Counters. Is that reasonable as well?

Once again, I need massive points just to maintain education and welfare (200 - 230 total) programs for my massive populace (530 million). I have 4 times as many people as the USA, 2.5 times as many people as Russia, and 8 to 10 times as many as most European nations. Therefore I need lots and lots more points than Russia, USA, or Europe just to sustain my population and maintain Westerner standards of living (progress Tech Levels, keep welfare going, domestic affairs, research, etc. along with the European nations and the USA).

Basically, I need A LOT (between 2.5 - 40 times) more effort, points, and industrialization to be of any halfway decent modern nation as opposed to, say, Belgium, Denmark, or Sweden.

Hope that clears things up somewhat.
China

Situation 1926
Annual builds 26 points (13 points a turn x 6 equals 78 reduced by 1 / 3 to peacetime base).

What was planned for that year and spent
China 13 points a turn
1 HQ available May 26 (previously purchased)
6 points for 3 factories (need 30 more points to finish in Jan 27)
2 points for 2 HQs (need 10 more points, finish Sept 26)
5 points for 5 Garrison units (10 more points needed, finish in May 26)

I gave China 32 points by 1932 to show growth, so effective 1927 that is what he should have using the old rules so that life would be simple.

So this is what he planned to build 1927 – 1932
1927 Actual available points 16 a turn, becomes 32 annually (high but allowable for simplicity)
21 Merchant Marine (63 points)
1 point in reserve.

1928:
Available: 32 production (national effort becomes 64) plus 10 shipping = 74
Planned Expeditures:
5 Merchant Marine (15 points)
2 Factory (36 points)
2 Pilot units (4 points)
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

12 points in reserve (insufficient for level 1 safety net)

1929:
Available 36 production (national effort becomes 72) plus 15 commerce = 87

Planned Expeditures:
5 factories (90 points) (can’t do that, so becomes 4 factories, with 11 points in reserve)


1930:
Available 44 production (becomes 88 at National Effort), plus 15 commerce = 103
Planned Expeditures:

6 factories (108 points) (can’t do that, becomes 5 factories for 90 points, leaving 13 points in reserve

1931: (Last year of first National Effort program)
Available 54 production (becomes 108 with National Effort), plus 15 = 123

Planned Expeditures:

8 factories (144 points) (can’t do that, becomes 6 factories for 108 points, with 15 points in reserve)

1932: (Start of second- and probably final- National Effort program)
Available as a base line 66 production (132 points National Effort), plus 15 shipping = 147 points

Planned Expeditures:

9 factories (162 points).(can’t do that, can build 8 factories for 144 points, leaving 3 points in reserve

At this point, after 6 years of dedicated national effort, the population is very restive. No significant funds have been spent on any kind of safety net, no military spending (although the reserve could be allocated that way I suppose, enough to keep the Army from revolting at least).

China needs for at least Level 1 Social Safety net (and primary education for everyone) 60 points a turn. Which it could have done as far back as 1928 (new rules would give China 64 points beginning in 1928). However, the Army and Navy are equipped with obsolete leftovers from the Great War, and you will now have to start spending 11.25 points a turn for maintenance for your obsolete military, which wants money too.

China (tech level 5)
7 garrison units, 6 fighter units, 6 pilots, 2 tech level 5 battleships (5/6/5/2) (1 heavy ship unit), 20 tech level 5 heavy cruisers (1/1/6/2) (4 light ship units), 60 tech level 5 destroyers ,(3 light ship units), 300 tech level 5 torpedo boats (8 light ship units)

But going with that expansion effort, China has 132 production points and 30 points for commerce. Maximun therefore is 162 points. With National Effort, China can get up to 264 plus 30 = 294 points.

Snip.Well, actually, it was his objections to the point system that caused him to walk. He didn't really post any builds, other than maybe some for 1927-32.

Do what thou wilt.

Well, actually, it was his objections to the point system that caused him to walk. He didn't really post any builds, other than maybe some for 1927-32.

Do what thou wilt.

using the points for Japan listed at the start of the Economics thread

using the points for Japan listed at the start of the Economics thread

That page says 60, but how much of that is merchant marine/airlines? That was one of the reasons I was looking for that one build.

That page says 60, but how much of that is merchant marine/airlines? That was one of the reasons I was looking for that one build.

He has 8 million tons of shipping (16 shipping units), so 16 points are for commerce. To the best of my knowledge, he did not build an airline (at least that I can find).

Japan gets 10 points turn from the US (steel and oil imports)
plus 16 points for commerce, plus 4 points from Formosa and 4 points from the Dutch East Indies. This leaves 26 production points. Which can become 52 with a National Effort. (a maximum of 86 points).

(I will post the Japanese military shortly, he didn't do anything with it either)

quick question for my points, did my three shipping units get factor into my points for this year? or no?

He has 8 million tons of shipping (16 shipping units), so 16 points are for commerce. To the best of my knowledge, he did not build an airline (at least that I can find).

Japan gets 10 points turn from the US (steel and oil imports)
plus 16 points for commerce, plus 4 points from Formosa and 4 points from the Dutch East Indies. This leaves 26 production points. Which can become 52 with a National Effort. (a maximum of 86 points).

(I will post the Japanese military shortly, he didn't do anything with it either)

Thanks a bunch. I'll get started on a preliminary build, and not knowing much about upkeep, I'll just use 30. I don't see anything about that on the front page....

EDIT: I now see the upkeep stuff, I don't see how I missed it....

Okay. Now I really need suggestions and help right now for China.

Assuming I have 294 points...

I need all these points to continue expasion so that I can generate enough points to self-sustain my social security, welfare, education, and healthcare budgets. Not only that, but I need points for my military maintainence. So after factoring all of that in, I still need enough points annually to build several factories so that I can continue to improve economy and eventually become able to afford the good programs, good research projects, etc.

So with 294 points, what do I do for 1933 (Lets assume I'm still in National Effort just so that I can self-sustain social, economic, education, and health programs and then still be able to build stuff)?

You see, if I want to have a mid-level safety net, as in Level 3... I'd need 160+ points to sustain it every year, which is more than I can afford during a Normal mode (peacetime). Even if I add a few more factories then revert back to Normal mode, I won't be able to build anything or expand if I use up 95% of my points for the Level 3 safety net.

Look at it this way....

Peacetime points for 1933: 132 points + 30 commerce points.
National Effort points for 1933: 294 points.

Level 3 Domestic Program: 160+ points.
Military Maintainence: 12 points.

Therefore, if I revert to a peacetime economy right now, I cannot build anything because all of my points are used up with a deficit of 10 points (170+ points needed and only 160 in income). If I stay on National Effort, it'll still take about 3/5 of my points just to keep the Level 3 policies going. That means I will only be able to build 2 or 3 factories at max after paying military maintainence.

What this means is that I may be forced to stay on National Effort until 1940 because by then, I'll have 200 - 230 points during peacetime, which leaves me with just enough points to spend on Level 3 Domestic stuff, and do either factory building or do research projects.

See what I'm stuck with? The USA only needs 40'ish points for Level 3 domestic stuff, whereas China needs 160+. Thus the reason why China needs to rush towards a self-sustaining economy so that it can finally do domestic stuff and not end up with 500+ million uneducated and unemployed dimwits or retards.

Rumanian build edited.

nobody said China was easy to play.. I suggest you work on level 1 to start with, maybe level 2, and hope for natural growth.

GB Chatzy.

What if I did the following for 1933?


Income: 294 points.

Expeditures:

160 points for Level 3 Domestic Programs
11 points for Unit Maintainence
108 points for 3 Factories

15 points left over- goes into a 4th factory (15 / 36 completion)


Does this sound reasonable and a good way to go?

What if I did the following for 1933?


Income: 294 points.

Expeditures:

160 points for Level 3 Domestic Programs
11 points for Unit Maintainence
108 points for 3 Factories

15 points left over- goes into a 4th factory (15 / 36 completion)


Does this sound reasonable and a good way to go?

Well, of course, the RL China was unable to satisfactorily resolve those issues, and collapsed in a forty-year long civil war that eventually resulted in a Communist Revolution.

Thought this might be worth repeating.

Your current budget for 1933 would definitely be an improvement, but remember that this "soulless point system" represents human realities. I mean, think for a minute about what it really means to be some poor Chinese schmuck ordered by the Emperor to work twice as hard as humanly possible under nightmarish conditions and you'll have an idea about what your Grand Expansion Plan is actually doing to your people. Workers will put up with that kind of thing - they did for the RL Soviets' first Five Year Plan, the RL Americans' National Recovery Administration, and the RL Chinese Great Leap Forward. (But it's telling that, in RL, the Russian and American programs succeeded while the Chinese program failed miserably due to the lack of an educated workforce.)

Even the RL Soviets had to abort their second Five Year Plan after only three years, and they didn't care about literally massacring millions of people to make their industrialization programs work. I think really you'd probably only have another year or two of National Effort at most before you begin suffering paralyzing strikes and massive social unrest, even with the increased social spending.

All right.

So what should I do then? I need 180 points minumum per year to be of any good. Here's why.

Level 3 Domestic Affairs = 159 points annually (3 points per 10 million people).
Military Maintainence = 11 points.
Total = 170 points annually.

So if I have 180 points minimum during peacetime, I'll be able to have 10 or so points to build anything I want with, under Normal Mode.

How soon can I achieve an annual income of 180 points? Once I hit that mark, I'll be able to stop my National Effort program and return back to Normal Spending Mode based economy. Then make everybody in China happy-happy with better working conditions, decent quality education, good healthcare, welfare, etc. with Level 3 Domestic Affairs ongoing (starting now in 1933 onwards).

So what will the consquences be if I stop National Effort at 1934, and revert to Normal Economy in 1934? Or what if I pushed it to start Normal Economy in 1935?

So what will the consquences be if I stop National Effort at 1934, and revert to Normal Economy in 1934? Or what if I pushed it to start Normal Economy in 1935?
Check your Thread.

You know, you don't need Level III immediately. You could have undertaken a more balanced growth program. You probably could still, except that some things might happen to interfere with that.

Thought this might be worth repeating.

Your current budget for 1933 would definitely be an improvement, but remember that this "soulless point system" represents human realities. I mean, think for a minute about what it really means to be some poor Chinese schmuck ordered by the Emperor to work twice as hard as humanly possible under nightmarish conditions and you'll have an idea about what your Grand Expansion Plan is actually doing to your people. Workers will put up with that kind of thing - they did for the RL Soviets' first Five Year Plan, the RL Americans' National Recovery Administration, and the RL Chinese Great Leap Forward. (But it's telling that, in RL, the Russian and American programs succeeded while the Chinese program failed miserably due to the lack of an educated workforce.)

Even the RL Soviets had to abort their second Five Year Plan after only three years, and they didn't care about literally massacring millions of people to make their industrialization programs work. I think really you'd probably only have another year or two of National Effort at most before you begin suffering paralyzing strikes and massive social unrest, even with the increased social spending.
So, why are you still asking what the consequences would be when I already posted them? I mean, do you read?

I'm sorry but can someone tell me what the up-keep costs for the military units are?

Now that all questions of domestic spending have been settled, we can do foreign investment. Note also that maintenance costs have been reduced from GB's original figures.

OK thanks for pointing that out, i'll have a revised budget up soon.

Kordo: It's on the front page, here's a copy:

tech level 6 maintainence costs
militia (free)
garrison, infantry, fortifications .25 points
motorized, artillery units .5 point
mechanized, armored, headquarters, all other ground units units 1 point (headquarters are relatively cheaper at this tech level)
fighters 1 point
transports and bombers 1, 2, or 3 points (single, twin or four engined)
carriers and landbased pilots .25 points
carrier aircraft .25 points
(essentially you are replacing aircraft routinely, as they don't last long at this tech level)

single cruisers, light ship units , transport and submarine units .25 points
battleships, carriers, amphibious assault fleets .5 point
shipping units are free (they pay for themselves)

In other words, higher tech level equipment is more expensive... which will also be useful later when we start getting to really high tech stuff.

Note that cruisers, even light cruisers, cost individually at tech level 6 (better ships) and that light ship and submarine units represent smaller numbers of ships.

New British economy stuff

Population: 39.1m, a standard economy, 2% growth, yields 120 points

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

The Army

1 HQ unit
2 9 point mechanized corps
2 8 point armoured cavalry corps
2 field artillery units
1 amphibious unit

TOTAL: 7 points

The Royal Navy

4 modernised Queen Elizabeth class battleships (which become 4 attack, 5 defense, 4 speed and range 5), HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS Warspite, HMS Barham, HMS Valiant,
1 modernised HMS Hood (which becomes 4 attack, 5 defense, 7 speed and range 6), HMS Hood
2 Modernised Nelson class battleships (which become 5 attack, 6 defense, 3 speed and 5 range), HMS Nelson, HMS Rodney
5 King George V class battleships (4 attack, protection 5, speed 6 and range 5). HMS King George V, HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Howe
3 Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, (80 – 100 aircraft), HMS Hermes, HMS Eagle, HMS Vindictive,
4 Tech 6 Light carriers protection 1, speed 6, range 6, (40 -55 aircraft), HMS Courageous, HMS Glorious, HMS Furious, HMS Argus
8 Tech 6 submarine units (80 submarines), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5,
16 Tech 6 Light ship (160 destroyers ) attack 1, defense 1, speed 7, range 4
10 Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6, HMS Hawkins, HMS Vindictive, HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher, HMS Effingham, HMS Caroline, HMS Cambrian, HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon, HMS Ceres, HMS Carlisle,
20 Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Birkinhead, HMS Birmingham, HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow, HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Nottingham, HMS Derby, HMS Yarmouth, HMS Dartmouth, HMS Chester, HMS Dublin, HMS Gloucester, HMS Chicester, HMS Liverpool, HMS Belfast, HMS Lowestoft, HMS Newcastle, HMS Southampton, HMS Kilmarnock, HMS Leicester, HMS Cambridge, HMS Oxford,

TOTAL: 34 points

Fleet Air Arm

3 carrier fighter units
4 carrier bomber units (2 torpedo, 2 dive bomber)
7 naval aviation pilots

TOTAL: 4 points

The Royal Airforce

5 bombers (Handley Page Hampdens)
5 UK fighters (Hawker Hurricanes)
12 pilot units

TOTAL: 18 points

The Army Reserves
Mostly territorial army units (30 days training per year), old yeomanry cavalry units which are now mechanised and ex-servicemen who are still on the reserves list.

1 Field Artillery
2 8 point mechanised corps
1 HQ unit
2 Garrisons (London, Dover)

TOTAL: 4 points

The Merchant Navy

35 merchant shipping units
10 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 20 Queen Mary sized ocean liners). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6,

Merchant Airforce

3 pilots
1 domestic airline
1 international airline

Other Defences

3 Flak artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow, London)
2 Coast artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow)
2 Fortifications (Dover, Scapa Flow)

TOTAL 3 points

MAINTENANCE TOTAL: 70 points

BUILDS

24 points to build 2 Tech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 build time 5 years (16 inch guns), these will replace the aging QE class ships when built alongside another two to be built next year.
6 points to finish advanced RADAR detection system.

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 20 points on welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

RESEARCH

16 free points: 8 to finish blood research and 12 to conduct oil exploration research.

TOTAL=120 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

So, why are you still asking what the consequences would be when I already posted them? I mean, do you read?

I know I'm facing these strikes and such, but what I was asking is how severe or reducing of the conditions would be if I ended the National Effort by 1934 as opposed to ending it in 1935, and whether I should change my policy by 1934 or 1935.

I know I'm facing these strikes and such, but what I was asking is how severe or reducing of the conditions would be if I ended the National Effort by 1934 as opposed to ending it in 1935, and whether I should change my policy by 1934 or 1935.

continued national effort in either year will almost certainly fan the fires, not quench them. Better to act quickly.

continued national effort in either year will almost certainly fan the fires, not quench them. Better to act quickly.

Actually, I think I have found a solution.

Revise my 1933 build to the following...

59 points for Level 1 Domestic Policy
11 points for Military Maintainence
216 points for 6 factories
8 Spare points (will go into a factory- 8 / 36 completion)

Thus, I believe I'll be able to reach my goal of 180 peacetime points by 1934, therefore I will not need National Effort in 1934 onwards. This will be my last year of National Effort.

Would this be helpful?

Spending for 1933:
8 Domestic + 8 Foreign Aid = 16 Points

2.75 points Military Upkeep
5 points for Social Services
2 points for one Pilot
3 points for domestic airline
TOTAL USED: 12.75


Current Military:
2 Mechanized Corps
1 Fortification (Budapest)
2 Reserve Infantry Corps

The Year of 1933, The MEU govt decides to do another five year plan for the nation, the points that MEU will get from this plan will be 40 points and plus 10 from the Soviets, so 50 points in total for this turn alone

26 points for maintaining the arm forces. just leaving 24 points for state projects

10 points for one factories( 10/36 points, and 10 points being added to build the factory, these 10 points from the aid send by the Soviets to fund a state own steel mill)

6 points for two shipping units

8 points for Education and Healthcare

The Union of South Africa
Population: 9.4 million
Production: 10.5 (with reduced government spending and half a million tons of shipping)

Year 1934:
Military Upkeep-3 points
Education and Safety Net-2 points (basic schools and clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance)
1x Shipping Unit (500,000 tons)-3 points
General Research-2.5 points

A million tons of merchant shipping gives you one point, correct? And since normal spending is 2% growth, if you reduce spending and increase growth by 5%, that makes a total growth of 7%, correct?

I apologize for the continued questions, but math (percentages included) is not something I understand.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1933)
Population:10.6 million
1933 builds: 24 points base, plus 17 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 24p

National Builds: (7p left)
3 New Universities in French Guyana, for "International Students" expected to develop the area.
4 Points to developing new Infrastructure, Hospitals, Housing, and irrigation to accomodate the large amount of incoming students.

The Year of 1933, The MEU govt decides to do another five year plan for the nation, the points that MEU will get from this plan will be 40 points and plus 10 from the Soviets, so 50 points in total for this turn alone

26 points for maintaining the arm forces. just leaving 24 points for state projects

10 points for one factories( 10/36 points, and 10 points being added to build the factory, these 10 points from the aid send by the Soviets to fund a state own steel mill)

6 points for two shipping units

8 points for Education and Healthcare

careful on the National Effort.. remember what happened in Iran in the 1970s when the Shah tried to modernize too quickly. The Persians don't like the Turks not only because they are occupiers, but also because they are Sunnis (and the Persians are Shiites), and too rapid modernization in the Islamic world is very risky (as the last 30 years should easily demonstrate in real life).

Incidently, the Egyptian government would like to see a substantial reduction in the numbers of Turkish and British troops in their country.

They figure a corps apiece would seem more than adequate.

GB-should I just cut back on my social programs bit, or that's not the modernize factor, that your talking about. Also I will cut down on my number of troops in Egypt, when I see the British doing likewise.

GB-should I just cut back on my social programs bit, or that's not the modernize factor, that your talking about. Also I will cut down on my number of troops in Egypt, when I see the British doing likewise.
Actually, to avoid unrest, you should cut back on industrialization, and expand social programs.

I plan on setting aside a lot of production points in 1934 for aid to the MEU, though - that's seen as one of the two most crucial foreign policy initiatives for the Soviet Union in the immediate future (other recipients are important, but not in quite as much need). I'll let you know when I have the budget how much you'll be getting.

Also I will cut down on my number of troops in Egypt, when I see the British doing likewise.

Britain would be more than glad to cut down it's forces present in Egypt. The British garrison will be scaled back to 1 mechanised corps of Native troops (including British officers, HQ staff, specialists etc.). This will be enacted once the MEU confirms it's promise to cut back to the same number.

The MEU will do likewise, we cut down our garrison in Egypt to one mechanised corps, and send the other mechanised corp to Iran and the Inf corp to Arabia. We are please to work with the British on this matter.

Placeholder (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10028407&postcount=362) updated.

Spending for 1933:
8 Domestic + 8 Foreign Aid = 16 Points

2.75 points Military Upkeep
5 points for Social Services
2 points for one Pilot
3 points for domestic airliner
TOTAL USED: 12.75


Current Military:
2 Mechanized Corps
1 Fortification (Budapest)
2 Reserve Infantry Corps

EDITED

I'm assuming that I don't have to pay matinence on the pilot and domestic airliner correct? And that if I don't, next year I would have 9 domestic points?

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1933)
Population:10.6 million
1933 builds: 24 points base, plus 17 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 24p

National Builds: (7p left)
3 New Universities in French Guyana, for "International Students" expected to develop the area.
4 Points to developing new Infrastructure, Hospitals, Housing, and irrigation to accomodate the large amount of incoming students.

The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) is 2 points per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further.

The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) is 2 points per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further.
Gran Colombia gets an extra 2 points from the Canal, and has a maximum of 34 that can be derived from shipping and airliners. His numbers are definitely weird, but theoretically, if he's maxed out, he can have up to 56 points total.

i am speaking of the 24 build points, where his max is 21.2, the plus two for the canal only gives him a max of 23.2(rounded up to 24 is fine with me), this isn't me being a pest, it is me giving him a warning that he shouldn't build any more factories lol. My advice colombia, keep building ships :P

Korean Build-

National Enrichment (AKA Natioanl Effort/Five Year) is still on, so Ten points plus 4 extra from Union.

OOC: Not sure what my support points are, but here is my build-
IC:

1933-

devotion of 6 points (4 donated, two domestic) to support for basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance.
2 points to Upgrade to Tech Level 6
6 points for a HQ

The projected Foreign Aid budget for the Union in 1934 is as follows:
6 points to Korea (KWP social services)

Direct any additional requests to the Soviet Union, or TG me.

OOC: Thou art generous....thank you again.

IC:

The Korean Workingman's Party thanks the Union for its aid in their domestic welfare operations. Quite frankly, while we find pleasure in helping the downtrodden Workingmen in our nation rise onto their feet, we find it odd that Syngman Rhee's government-which obstensibly cares for Korea- has not done the same.

Comrade Cho
KWP

OOC: Thou art generous....thank you again.

IC:

The Korean Workingman's Party thanks the Union for its aid in their domestic welfare operations. Quite frankly, while we find pleasure in helping the downtrodden Workingmen in our nation rise onto their feet, we find it odd that Syngman Rhee's government-which obstensibly cares for Korea- has not done the same.

Comrade Cho
KWP
OoC: I'll be much more generous once certain, somewhat nasty projects of mine are finished - it's expensive being an activist superpower. I actually regret that what I'm giving out is so little. Of course, those 6 points to Korea represent Level IV social services, so I guess that's nothing to sneeze at.

Comrade Cho,
The Sovereign People are only too happy to assist their fellow workers, and we again express our hopes that Korea will continue its peaceful and democratic progress towards socialism.

- Rosa Luxemburg, Chair of the Council Committee for International Direct Action

i am speaking of the 24 build points, where his max is 21.2, the plus two for the canal only gives him a max of 23.2(rounded up to 24 is fine with me), this isn't me being a pest, it is me giving him a warning that he shouldn't build any more factories lol. My advice colombia, keep building ships :P

I don't see any factories being built, do you? My original build before the trouble in China, had me building plenty of merc ships.

I don't see any factories being built, do you? My original build before the trouble in China, had me building plenty of merc ships.

NO MORE ADVICE FOR YOU! j/k :P

alright, i show that Australia has 20 points annually with a population of around 6 million people. For some reason it seems to be a little high, but if that is correct, could it be increased anymore by building a merchant marine fleet or am I maxed out there?

alright, i show that Australia has 20 points annually with a population of around 6 million people. For some reason it seems to be a little high, but if that is correct, could it be increased anymore by building a merchant marine fleet or am I maxed out there?
With 6 million people, your productivity cap from industry would be 12, and your maximum allowable points from maritime shipping would an additional 30, and from aerial commerce and additional 4. So, yes, you can actually more than double the points you've got, since your absolute maximum is 46.

This brings up a question that ought to be settled, though. I've been allocating points for "maintaining" extra air transports. I have no problem with the WWZA being unprofitable - realistically, it probably would be. But it seems unfair for me to spend maintenance on surplus air transports when nobody's paying maintenance on surplus maritime transports.

Not that I'm suggesting they start, of course. That would add another complication to the system that the community almost certainly couldn't handle right now. But I'd like to see this situation addressed.

China's build for 1934:

Income: 186 points.

Factories = 156 points (up from 132 points due to 6 new factories built in 1933)
Trade = 30 points

Expeditures: 70 points.

Level 1 Education = 59 points.
Military Maintainence = 11 points.

-------------------------------

Important note: China is now no longer on National Effort as we go into 1934. Consquently, I am unsure which mode to adopt.

Normal Mode for the extra points to build a stronger defensive force for China?

OR

Government Cuts Mode to grow at 5% industry annually and nip a lot of discontent in the bud (along with newly established social programs)?

With 6 million people, your productivity cap from industry would be 12, and your maximum allowable points from maritime shipping would an additional 30, and from aerial commerce and additional 4. So, yes, you can actually more than double the points you've got, since your absolute maximum is 46.

This brings up a question that ought to be settled, though. I've been allocating points for "maintaining" extra air transports. I have no problem with the WWZA being unprofitable - realistically, it probably would be. But it seems unfair for me to spend maintenance on surplus air transports when nobody's paying maintenance on surplus maritime transports.

Not that I'm suggesting they start, of course. That would add another complication to the system that the community almost certainly couldn't handle right now. But I'd like to see this situation addressed.


easiest way to deal with it is simply to say the Lufthansa and Aeroflot are over staffed and inefficient as hell. Look at it this way, gives you a lot of spare pilots come war time. Most of the money for the airlines was spent actually on airfields, which didn't really exist at all prior to building them.

easiest way to deal with it is simply to say the Lufthansa and Aeroflot are over staffed and inefficient as hell. Look at it this way, gives you a lot of spare pilots come war time. Most of the money for the airlines was spent actually on airfields, which didn't really exist at all prior to building them.
"Lufthansa and Aeroflot" don't exist. The correct terms are "die Zeppelin-Weltluftfahrtgesellschaft von Arbeitern" (ZWA, the international service consisting largely of airships), and "die Vereinigungsluftfahrtgesellschaft von Arbeitern" (VVA, the domestic service).

And, incidentally, I think this should count as "government funding" for aviation advances.

The Year of 1934, The MEU govt still on a five year plan mode for the nation, the points that MEU will get from this plan will be 40 points and plus 42 from the Soviets, plus 2 points from cargo shipping, so 84 points in total for this turn alone

26 points for maintaining the arm forces. Just leaving 58 points for state projects

16 points for one factories (20/36 points, and 16 points being added to build the factory, these 16 points from the aid send by the Soviets to fund a state own steel mill, this factory will be complete by 1935)

4 cargo-shipping units for 12 points
1 Tech 5 Light ship (10 destroyers) for 8 points

22 points for social programs(Education and healthcare,plus some welfare programs)

Socialist Federation of Yugoslavia
Population:15 million
1934 builds: 32 points(22 base+2 Merchant Marine+8 points from Union)

Reform:
Economy/Industrial reform: 15 points(43 more needed until factory completed next year)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep:4
Medical/Welfare 5 points per 10 million people: 10 points

Nation Builds:
1xShipping unit: 3 points

Points used:32


BIG QUESTION: how much does it cost to build a factory at normal spending? VP said 36, GB says 72 on the front page.

ooc: Jeez.. I wish my ally gave me free points.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1934)
Population:10.6 million
1934 builds: 24 points base, plus 17 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 24p

National Builds: (7p left)
2 x Merchant Marine (6p)
1p in Reserve

"Lufthansa and Aeroflot" don't exist. The correct terms are "die Zeppelin-Weltluftfahrtgesellschaft von Arbeitern" (ZWA, the international service consisting largely of airships), and "die Vereinigungsluftfahrtgesellschaft von Arbeitern" (VVA, the domestic service).

And, incidentally, I think this should count as "government funding" for aviation advances.

yes, we can count that... the Germans develop the Condor, civil version of the HE111, and several interesting flying boats, while the Russians develop a transport version of the An22 and acquire licensing rights to the DC2

The US is working on the DC4 (C54) and several interesting flying boats as well (the Clippers)

ooc: Jeez.. I wish my ally gave me free points.

You could always switch sides, running-dog.

I need advice on whether to go for Normal mode or Government Cuts mode.

From my viewpoint, I can't decide because....

Normal mode = 186 points to spend. That leaves me with some points to build up defense forces or build more factories.

Government Cuts mode = 108 points to spend. That means I won't have much points to spend for building stuff, but I'll have a lot of natural growth.

So what do I do? What should I start building with the points I have in either mode- I don't want to build Navy or military stuff until I reach Tech Level 6, which should save me a lot of upgrading costs. On the other hand, I need to keep expanding my economy so that I can afford the better Levels of domestic policies like Level 3 or 4 and have a happy populace.

French Budget, 1934

93 points (+1 from growth, +1 from international airline)(2% growth)

Military Spending

Maintenece

1 HQ(reserve)-1 point

3 Mechanized Corp(active)-3 points

3 Mechanized Corp(Reserve)-3 points

1 Mechanized Anti-Tank unit-1 point

1 Mechanized Field Artillery unit-1 point

1 Alpine Corp(active)-1 point

1 Marine Corp(reserve)-1 point

2 Flak Artillery Units(reserve)-2 points

2 Coastal Artillery Units(active)-2 points

2 Sub Counters(10 each, TL 6, reserve)-.5 point

5 cruisers(TL 6)-1.25 points

2 light ship counters(TL 6)-.5 point

3 Fighter Units (D.510)-3 points

2 Naval/Torpedo Bombers-2 points

1 bomber unit(LN.411)-1 point

1 transport (Single-engine)-1 point

1 transport (2 engines)-1 point

8 pilots-2 points

Sub-Total:26 points (rounded down from 26.25)

Construction

None

Sub-Total: 0

Military Sub-Total: 26 points

Domestic Spending

5-Point Education/Social Net: 20 points

Investment in China (to be used for social projects): 15 points

Investment in Vietnam (To be used for economic advancement): 10 points

Surplus: 2 points

Sub-Total: 47 points

TOTAL: 93 points

Wait a second!

How did I go from Tech level 5 to tech level 4?!?! Did India get stupid all of a sudden, and forget all the knowledge the Brit's taught us? The vast majority of the Indian upper-class has a British-level education, and guess who runs all the companies and such?

Also, I have no idea what to build anymore, seeing how you have nothing written for military things I can build for tech level 4, and I have no idea what supporting my army costs, since once again, you have nothing written for Tech level 4.

*confused*

Current military 1 garrison 1 infantry
national effort
population 24,583,100
1933
32 points
1x Fighter 2 points
1x pilots 2 points
15xpoints for welfare(level 3)
2x cargo ships 6 points
1x infantry corps 2 points
1x Garrison 3 points 30 points
2x points towards factories(16 more needed)


1934
Current Military 2 garrison, 2 infantry, 1 fighter, and 1 pilot
national effort
population 24,583,100
34 points
15x points for welfare(level 3)
2xMechanized corps 8 points
2x points for military maintence
6x points towards factory(10 more needed)
3x points towards cargo ships

1935
Current Military 2 garrison, 2 infantry, 2 mech, 1 fighter, 1 pilot
National effort
population 24,583,100
35 points
15x points for welfare(level 3)
3x points for military maintence
2x 1 point Tech 5 light cruiser
1x 8 points for 10 tech 6 destroyers
6x points towards factory(2 more needed)

Thanks to MEU and Yugo for being the ones to finally help me with this.

Well.. upkeep points changed.

10 Points to Highest Level of Education, Welfare, and Free Healthcare
Army
1 x 1 Mechanized Corp = 1p
.25 x 1 Infantry Corp = .25
.25 x 4 Garrison = 1
Airforce
1 x 8 Fighters = 8
0.25 x 8 Pilots = 2p
Navy
.25 x 2 Light Ships (20 Destroyers) = .5
TOTAL: 12.75.. 13p

...Thats half of my original! Lets redo this, shall we?

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1933)
Population:10.6 million
1933 builds: 24 points base, plus 17 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (18p left)
6 x Merchant Marine (18p)

-----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1934)
Population:10.6 million
1934 builds: 24 points base, plus 20 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (21p left)
7 x Merchant Marine (21p)

----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1935)
Population:10.6 million
1935 builds: 24 points base, plus 23.5 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (24p left)
8 x Merchant Marine (24p)

----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1936)
Population:10.6 million
1936 builds: 24 points base, plus 27.5 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (28p left)
9 x Merchant Marine (27p)
1p reserve

----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1937)
Population:10.6 million
1937 builds: 24 points base, plus 32 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

10 Points to Paying All of Students Tuition Fees to Post-Secondary Education.
(I am Cuba now. ph34r my Socialist Paradise!)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (23p left)
8p to build Fleet Carrier (Ready for 1939)
8p to build Fleet Carrier (Ready for 1939)

----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1938)
Population:10.6 million
1938 builds: 24 points base, plus 23.5 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

10 Points to Paying All of Students Tuition Fees to Post-Secondary Education.
(I am Cuba now. ph34r my Socialist Paradise!)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (23p)

----

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1939)
Population:10.6 million
1939 builds: 24 points base, plus 23.5 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

10 Points to Paying All of Students Tuition Fees to Post-Secondary Education.
(I am Cuba now. ph34r my Socialist Paradise!)

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (23p)

Wait a second!

How did I go from Tech level 5 to tech level 4?!?! Did India get stupid all of a sudden, and forget all the knowledge the Brit's taught us? The vast majority of the Indian upper-class has a British-level education, and guess who runs all the companies and such?

Also, I have no idea what to build anymore, seeing how you have nothing written for military things I can build for tech level 4, and I have no idea what supporting my army costs, since once again, you have nothing written for Tech level 4.

*confused*

your tech level 5... I simply haven't fixed it yet.
However, you do have tech level 4 units in your navy, they cost the same as tech level 5 units.

Tech level has nothing to do with the education of the upper class, it has to do with the industrial capability your nation has.

USA 1934
US Population (1930 census) 130 million
196 production points available x 2 = 392 (National Effort, +1% growth for next year) plus 6 points for the Philippines, 34 points for shipping and airlines. 432 points total

Military maintenance
106 points
National Safety net (level 5 spending)(unemployment insurance, food stamps, junior college system)
65 points
10 points to Japan (represents US oil and steel exports to Japan)

continue 2 battleships (improved North Carolina class)(24 points, 18 months to go, fully paid for)
start 2 Montana class battleships (30 points, 2 years to go, fully paid for)
build 4 light ships (40 destroyers)(32 points)
build 3 submarine units (30 submarines)(24 points)
continue 1 Fleet Carrier (Ranger)(4 points)(available January 1935, fully paid for)
start 1 Fleet Carrier (Bon Homme Richard)(8 points) (1 years to go)(fully paid for)
1 Amphibious fleet (6 points)
convert 150 tech level 5 old destroyers to 150 tech level 6 destroyer escorts (10 light ships (80 points)
2 factories (Tennessee Valley Authority Projects) (36 points)
3 transport units (9 points)
432 points total

Okay I think I settled on a build for 1934. Please do share with me if this is reasonable or not.

1934:

Economy Mode: Government Cuts = 5% Natural Growth.

Income: 108 points.

Factories = 78 points
Commerce = 30 points

Expeditures:

Level 1 Safety Net = 59 points.
Military Maintainence = 11 points.
Factory Completion (Factory begun in 1933) = 68 / 72 points.

----------------------------
I'm assuming two things in my build.

First, factories give 4 points per factory during peace-time, following the doubling of ALL income sources due to revision of the economy. This has already been applied to trade income- doubling max from 17 points to 34 (Now its 30 max for naval trade and 4 points for air trade I believe). Thus, it stands to reason that factories follow a similiar doubling in income.

Second, I converted from National Effort to Government Cuts. That means my 15 / 36 completion (15 points finished out of 36) for a factory which is supposed to cost 36 points during National Effort during 1933 has to change. I believe factories cost 72 points during normal and government cuts mode, which is basically double the cost of the factory costs in National efforts.

Now do fractions and percentage... 15 / 36 = 5 / 12 or 42% complete.

Apply this completion to the 72 points in Government Cuts mode- which should be approximately 30 / 72, or roughly the same percentage, 42%. Then I dump 38 more points (the extra points I have after safety net and maintainence), thus making it 68 / 72. This means I only need 4 more points to finish the factory next year in 1935.

Hope I made sense. Haha.

Sharina, France has invested 17 points in China for social programs and the betterment of the Chinese working man.

Sharina, France has invested 17 points in China for social programs and the betterment of the Chinese working man.

In this case, here's my revised build for 1934.

Economy Mode: Government Cuts = 5% Natural Growth.

Income: 125 points.

Factories = 78 points
Commerce = 30 points
French aid = 17 points

Expeditures:

Level 1 Safety Net = 59 points (French aid income goes here).
Military Maintainence = 11 points.
1 Factory = 72 points (Complete this factory which was started in 1933).
Factory Completion (Factory begun in 1934) = 13 / 72 points.

------------------------------

In addition to my two statements in my post prior to this one, France's 17 points goes to my Level 1 Safety Net, which allows me to divert 17 of my own points towards factories. Therefore, I'm able to supply the extra 4 points needed to complete the factory begun in 1933 in addition to the 38 points already spent in 1934 to finish this factory, and allocate the remaining 13 points towards a new factory (13 points out of 72).

Preliminary Builds For 1934:
Switch to National Effort Mode
8(x2) (Domestic Points) + 1 (Airline) + 12 (Russian Points) = 29 Points

2.75 points for Military up-keep
5 points for domestic services
1.25 for building Egyetem Város (University City) at Keszthely
2 for pilot unit
4 for air transports (International Airline)
14 points for factory (14/36 done)

78 points for New Military Construction
15 will go to building 6 Marx-class battleships. (year 3 of 6)
16 points for 6 Democracy-class Fleet Carriers (year 1 of 3)
3 points for 1 mechanized rocket artillery
10 points for 5 fortifications (Hamburg, Munich, Bremen, Vladivostok, Khabarovsk-rebuilt after disuse)
10 points for building 4 Urban-class battleships (year 1 of 4)
4 points for building 1 submarine

just a reminder... the cost of tech level 6 battleships, carriers and cruisers is per ship, not per capital ship unit (as it was for tech level 5). Tech level 6 warships are far more capable, but also far more expensive per ton.

just a reminder... the cost of tech level 6 battleships, carriers and cruisers is per ship, not per capital ship unit (as it was for tech level 5). Tech level 6 warships are far more capable, but also far more expensive per ton.
Who needs reminding?

Maybe you're confused about the fact that I'm spreading out the expense over the course of the entire construction time.

1934:
Maintenance:
2 points for infantry (2 mechanized, and 1 HQ)
4 points for aircraft (3 bombers and 1 fighter)
1 point for pilots (4 pilots)
4 for navy (6 cruisers, 10 corvettes)

11 points total

4 points to education.

15 points total

1 point not used.

The Navy requests that no money be spent on the old warships, that they be scrapped, and that 5 points be spent on new warships plus a request from the British for 3 more points so that the Indian Navy can acquire 10 tech level 6 destroyers.

The Navy requests that no money be spent on the old warships, that they be scrapped, and that 5 points be spent on new warships plus a request from the British for 3 more points so that the Indian Navy can acquire 10 tech level 6 destroyers.

That is what we shall do.

Revised 1934
Maintenance:
2 points for infantry (2 mechanized, and 1 HQ)
4 points for aircraft (3 bombers and 1 fighter)
1 point for pilots (4 pilots)

No money spent on navy.

7 points total

Construction:
5 light cruisers

12 points total

4 points to education.
16 points total

Okay with all the lovely points that france and austrailia have donated to the DRVN heres a build list that will go in addition to what im doing with my base points already.

1934:
16 points (6 points from Austrailia + 10 points from France)

3x Infantry corps = 6 points

10 points to go into developing Vietnam's industrial base.

1934 Build-Cut Government Spending

Points-12 Factory points, 17 shipping/airliner+2 from growth since end of the war=31 points total. Divide base points in half-24 points to spend

8 points- maintenance
4 points- Lv 4 welfare program(I know its 5, but its 5 for every 10 mill people, I have 6 mill so I think I deserve the right to shave a point off.)
5 points- Set up radar network
5 points- To Denmark and Norway for the SU(To help improve thier economies and infrastructure, bring them to tech Lv 6.)

1935 Build-Cut Government spending

Points-12 Factory points, 17 trade, 3.5 from growth-32.5 points total......25 to spend

8 points- maintenance
4 points- Lv 4 welfare
8 points- Aid to Denmark and Norway, help advance to tech lv 6 and improve infrastructure/econ
5 points- Improve Swedish infrastructure.(Specifically, I want these points going to bringing electricity and telephone service out to all areas of the country, and add more railroad track, build more locamotives to service track. Hope to have plenty of moving points.)

1936 Build-Cut Government Spending

Points-12 factory, 17 trade, 5 from growth.(5% growth is appro. 1.5 points.)-34 points total........26 to spend

8 points- maintenance
4 points- Lv 4 welfare
9 points- Aid to Denmark and Norway, help advance to tech lv 6 and improve infrastructure/econ
5 points- Improve Swedish infrastructure(Now all infra, not just electricity and telephone.)

REVISED FOR WAR

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1934)
Population:10.6 million
1934 builds: 24 points base, plus 20 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 points
basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (21p left)
Alpine corps - 3 points, 3 turns
1 Infantry division converted to Alpine Corps - 1p, 1 turn
Motorized Field artillery - 3 points, 3 turns
Theater supply units - 2 points, 2 turns
4 x Merchant Marine (3p each = 12p)
Total - 21p

EDIT: I just saw the map we will be using for China. Alpine corps it is.

Japanese build (Wartime spending)

1934 (118 points--34 commerce/empire 28x2 normal)
29.5 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
24x points for a factory
18x points for 5 fleet carriers (which are being continued from 1933)
4x points for 2 theater supply units
15x points for 5 motorized corps
9x points for 3 alpine corps
12x points for 4 shipping units (Will I actually get points for these, or has the points from the US and DEI taken up the commerce points?)

The Navy requests that no money be spent on the old warships, that they be scrapped, and that 5 points be spent on new warships plus a request from the British for 3 more points so that the Indian Navy can acquire 10 tech level 6 destroyers.

The British government would be gald to assist the Indian government in increasing their defensive capability and will be pleased to deduct a number of points from their budget for use by the Indian defence ministry if requested.

New British economy stuff (1934)

Population: 39.1m, a standard economy, 2% growth, yields 122 points

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

The Army

1 HQ unit
2 9 point mechanized corps
2 8 point armoured cavalry corps
2 field artillery units
1 amphibious unit

TOTAL: 7 points

The Royal Navy

4 modernised Queen Elizabeth class battleships (which become 4 attack, 5 defense, 4 speed and range 5), HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS Warspite, HMS Barham, HMS Valiant,
1 modernised HMS Hood (which becomes 4 attack, 5 defense, 7 speed and range 6), HMS Hood
2 Modernised Nelson class battleships (which become 5 attack, 6 defense, 3 speed and 5 range), HMS Nelson, HMS Rodney
5 King George V class battleships (4 attack, protection 5, speed 6 and range 5). HMS King George V, HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Howe
3 Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, (80 – 100 aircraft), HMS Hermes, HMS Eagle, HMS Vindictive,
4 Tech 6 Light carriers protection 1, speed 6, range 6, (40 -55 aircraft), HMS Courageous, HMS Glorious, HMS Furious, HMS Argus
8 Tech 6 submarine units (80 submarines), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5,
16 Tech 6 Light ship (160 destroyers ) attack 1, defense 1, speed 7, range 4
10 Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6, HMS Hawkins, HMS Vindictive, HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher, HMS Effingham, HMS Caroline, HMS Cambrian, HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon, HMS Ceres, HMS Carlisle,
20 Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Birkinhead, HMS Birmingham, HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow, HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Nottingham, HMS Derby, HMS Yarmouth, HMS Dartmouth, HMS Chester, HMS Dublin, HMS Gloucester, HMS Chicester, HMS Liverpool, HMS Belfast, HMS Lowestoft, HMS Newcastle, HMS Southampton, HMS Kilmarnock, HMS Leicester, HMS Cambridge, HMS Oxford,

TOTAL: 34 points

Fleet Air Arm

3 carrier fighter units
4 carrier bomber units (2 torpedo, 2 dive bomber)
7 naval aviation pilots

TOTAL: 4 points

The Royal Airforce

5 bombers (Handley Page Hampdens)
5 UK fighters (Hawker Hurricanes)
12 pilot units

TOTAL: 18 points

The Army Reserves
Mostly territorial army units (30 days training per year), old yeomanry cavalry units which are now mechanised and ex-servicemen who are still on the reserves list.

1 Field Artillery
2 8 point mechanised corps
1 HQ unit
2 Garrisons (London, Dover)

TOTAL: 4 points

The Merchant Navy

35 merchant shipping units
10 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 20 Queen Mary sized ocean liners). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6,

Merchant Airforce

3 pilots
1 domestic airline
1 international airline

Other Defences

3 Flak artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow, London)
2 Coast artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow)
2 Fortifications (Dover, Scapa Flow)

TOTAL 3 points

MAINTENANCE TOTAL: 70 points

BUILDS

12 points to build 1 Tech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 build time 5 years (16 inch guns), this will replace the aging QE class ships when placed alongside another two begun last year and another one to be started next year.

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 20 points on welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

RESEARCH

20 points to provide funding and assistance to Frank Whittle of the RAF in developing Jet Propulsion Aircraft.

TOTAL=120 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

I have an army of three Malitia, how much do I need to spend on upkeeping?

Australian Builds for 1934: 20pts total

6 points to Vietnam for military aid

2 motorized corps at 3 points each = 6 points

Maintanence for all units (OOC: not sure on this but it shouldnt be more than 2 points since i just have 4 garrison units, one motorized infantry corps and one pilot no planes)

Upgrades on all level 5 warships to level 6 (OOC: really not sure on this. i have 2 battlecruiser, 2 heavy cruisers, 4 light cruisers, 20 destoyers, and 10 subs)

1 tech 6 shipping unit at 3 points

The rest if I have any left are in reserve.

Upgrades will cost you twenty points total to get up to level six. (if you count each ship individually and use the tech level six rules.) You might want to spread that out over a few years. Lik, do one or two ships this year and more the year after and so on.

Land upkeep is 2 points.

Upgrades will cost you twenty points total to get up to level six. (if you count each ship individually and use the tech level six rules.) You might want to spread that out over a few years. Lik, do one or two ships this year and more the year after and so on.

Land upkeep is 2 points.

Thanks. Before I decide what to upgrade though, do I have to pay maintenence on things at the same time they are upgraded? If so, I wont be able to upgrade at all this year as my slack will be taken up doing that.

Thanks. Before I decide what to upgrade though, do I have to pay maintenence on things at the same time they are upgraded? If so, I wont be able to upgrade at all this year as my slack will be taken up doing that.

Hmmm...I'm not sure. I don't think so,though. Why would you pay upkeep for ships in drydock?

Erm regarding my infantry corps that I am building, when will they be ready for duty?

Soon, I should think. They only take two turns (4 months) to build.

ok thanks

Thanks. Before I decide what to upgrade though, do I have to pay maintenence on things at the same time they are upgraded? If so, I wont be able to upgrade at all this year as my slack will be taken up doing that.

no, the year ships are upgraded, you do not have to pay maintanence for them. Aircraft and ground forces are different (as that way we don't have to keep track of the plethora of changes that occur)

Soon, I should think. They only take two turns (4 months) to build.

the 3 new Vietnamese infantry corps show up in May 1934

no, the year ships are upgraded, you do not have to pay maintanence for them. Aircraft and ground forces are different (as that way we don't have to keep track of the plethora of changes that occur)

Alright, Revised Australian 1934 Build:--20 points to spend
6 pts to Vietnam

2 points to maintain 4 garrisons, 1 pilot and 1 motorized infantry (rounds up from 1.75)

3 points to maintain 2 destroyer units, 1 sub unit, 4 light cruisers, 2 heavy cruisers and 2 battlecruisers (from 2.75)

6 points to build 2 more motorized infantry corps at 3 points each

3 points to build 1 tech 6 shipping unit (OOC: so I will have 21 points next yr)

That means no upgrades of ships this year.

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1934)
Population:10.6 million
1934 builds: 24 points base, plus 20 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 pointsbasic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Military upkeep: 13p

National Builds: (21p left)
Alpine corps - 3 points, 3 turns
1 Infantry division converted to Alpine Corps - 1p, 1 turn
1 HQ Unit - 3p, 3 turns
Motorized Field artillery - 3 points, 3 turns
Theater supply units - 2 points, 2 turns
3 x Merchant Marine (3p each = 9p)
Total - 21p

How soon can I change to war footing and how many point would I get if I did?

How soon can I change to war footing and how many point would I get if I did?

Effective May Vietnam goes to 1 point a turn. In May 1935 it gets 2 points a turn (remember a turn is 2 months during wartime). Plus whatever assistance it is getting from elsewhere. Laos and Cambodia add no production to Vietnam (as they have none, except for poppies, which aren't going to improve your economy one bit).

Japanese build (Wartime spending)

1934 (118 points--34 commerce/empire 28x2 normal)
29.5 points to upkeep
6x points for basic education
24x points for a factory
18x points for 5 fleet carriers (which are being continued from 1933)
4x points for 2 theater supply units
15x points for 5 motorized corps
9x points for 3 alpine corps
12x points for 4 shipping units (Will I actually get points for these, or has the points from the US and DEI taken up the commerce points?)

the Alpine corps show up in July, as do the motorized corps. Theater supply units show up in January 1935, as do the shipping units (which can increase Japanese commercial points). In addition, the war allows Japan to seize 6 Chinese shipping units that were trapped in Japanese ports or captured with the fall of Tsingtao and Shanghai. These are now Japanese shipping units.

The factory (which costs only 18 points) become available next year, and add 6 points a year to Japan during wartime. The Army wants to replace its dead fighter, dead infantry, and dead pilot unit. The Navy needs to replace 3 dead carrier aircraft units, plus a dead carrier pilot unit. The Navy is willing to defer construction of the carriers to ensure the current carriers have enough aircraft and pilots to handle the attrition, and also would rather have a couple of 2-engined naval air units (Nells) and a couple of land based fighter units (Claudes and later Zeros, called Type 94s in this game). The Navy is also interested in building more heavy cruisers and light cruisers, as it doesn't feel it has enough of either type.

A few minor changes to allow aid to Vietnam and Tibet:

New British economy stuff (1934)

Population: 39.1m, a standard economy, 2% growth, yields 122 points

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

The Army

1 HQ unit
2 9 point mechanized corps
2 8 point armoured cavalry corps
2 field artillery units
1 amphibious unit

TOTAL: 7 points

The Royal Navy

4 modernised Queen Elizabeth class battleships (which become 4 attack, 5 defense, 4 speed and range 5), HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS Warspite, HMS Barham, HMS Valiant,
1 modernised HMS Hood (which becomes 4 attack, 5 defense, 7 speed and range 6), HMS Hood
2 Modernised Nelson class battleships (which become 5 attack, 6 defense, 3 speed and 5 range), HMS Nelson, HMS Rodney
5 King George V class battleships (4 attack, protection 5, speed 6 and range 5). HMS King George V, HMS Prince of Wales, HMS Duke of York, HMS Anson, HMS Howe
3 Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, (80 – 100 aircraft), HMS Hermes, HMS Eagle, HMS Vindictive,
4 Tech 6 Light carriers protection 1, speed 6, range 6, (40 -55 aircraft), HMS Courageous, HMS Glorious, HMS Furious, HMS Argus
8 Tech 6 submarine units (80 submarines), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5,
16 Tech 6 Light ship (160 destroyers ) attack 1, defense 1, speed 7, range 4
10 Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6, HMS Hawkins, HMS Vindictive, HMS Raleigh, HMS Frobisher, HMS Effingham, HMS Caroline, HMS Cambrian, HMS Centaur, HMS Caledon, HMS Ceres, HMS Carlisle,
20 Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6, HMS Bristol, HMS Chatham, HMS Weymouth, HMS Birkinhead, HMS Birmingham, HMS Manchester, HMS Glasgow, HMS Edinburgh, HMS Falmouth, HMS Nottingham, HMS Derby, HMS Yarmouth, HMS Dartmouth, HMS Chester, HMS Dublin, HMS Gloucester, HMS Chicester, HMS Liverpool, HMS Belfast, HMS Lowestoft, HMS Newcastle, HMS Southampton, HMS Kilmarnock, HMS Leicester, HMS Cambridge, HMS Oxford,

TOTAL: 34 points

Fleet Air Arm

3 carrier fighter units
4 carrier bomber units (2 torpedo, 2 dive bomber)
7 naval aviation pilots

TOTAL: 4 points

The Royal Airforce

5 bombers (Handley Page Hampdens)
5 UK fighters (Hawker Hurricanes)
12 pilot units

TOTAL: 18 points

The Army Reserves
Mostly territorial army units (30 days training per year), old yeomanry cavalry units which are now mechanised and ex-servicemen who are still on the reserves list.

1 Field Artillery
2 8 point mechanised corps
1 HQ unit
2 Garrisons (London, Dover)

TOTAL: 4 points

The Merchant Navy

35 merchant shipping units
10 Tech 6 Ocean Liners (represents 20 Queen Mary sized ocean liners). Protection 2, range 5, speed 6,

Merchant Airforce

3 pilots
1 domestic airline
1 international airline

Other Defences

3 Flak artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow, London)
2 Coast artillery (Dover, Scapa Flow)
2 Fortifications (Dover, Scapa Flow)

TOTAL 3 points

MAINTENANCE TOTAL: 70 points

BUILDS

12 points to build 1 Tech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 build time 5 years (16 inch guns), this will replace the aging QE class ships when placed alongside another two begun last year and another one to be started next year.

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 20 points on welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

RESEARCH

12 points to provide funding and assistance to Frank Whittle of the RAF in developing Jet Propulsion Aircraft.

FOREIGN AID

4 points to Tibet to spend on raising a military
4 points to Vietnam to spend on military

TOTAL=120 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

Ooh more points, yay!

The four points given as aid from Britain will be used to make:
A fighter unit and a pilot at 4 points



When you say 1 point a turn do I have to use all points recieved in that turn or can I 'Save Up'?

I have an army of three Malitia, how much do I need to spend on upkeeping?

*carves "HELP ME!!!" onto his forhead*

*carves "HELP ME!!!" onto his forhead*
Read the first post, for god's sake. Militia are free.

Read the first post, for god's sake. Militia are free.

oh marvellous :D

*wipes blood*

I'm probably being a bitch about this, but when is RUmania going to get to Tech 6?

Ooh more points, yay!

The four points given as aid from Britain will be used to make:
A fighter unit and a pilot at 4 points



When you say 1 point a turn do I have to use all points recieved in that turn or can I 'Save Up'?

you can save up, as long as they are spent the year that they are earned

I'm probably being a bitch about this, but when is RUmania going to get to Tech 6?

1936 unless something drastic occurs

1936 unless something drastic occurs
Thanks! =) Just wanted to know, so I could plan accordingly.

French Build, from March-April to the end of the Year

15 points a turn x 5 turns = 75 points

I assume the points from the beginning of the year are lost to peace, as is the maintence spending.

March-April

3xMechanized Corp (6 points)

1xHQ (2 points)

1xTheater Supply Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

1xBomber Unit (single-engine divebomber, 2 points-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (2 points, five turns to completion)

1xRocket Artillery (1 point)

May-June

3xMechanized Corps (6 points-COMPLETE)

1xHQ (2 points)

1xPilot(four turns to completion)

1xRocket Artillery (1 point-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (2 points, five turns to completion)

Fighter Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

Bomber Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

July-August

1xHQ (2 points-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (three turns to completion)

NOT COMPLETE WILL FINISH LATER

20 points per turn, possibly more if factories are repaired. How much does that cost?

March-April
6x points for two HQs
4x points for 2 pilots
4x points for 2 fighters
4x points for a mechanized unit
2x points to start a mechanized unit

May-June
6x points for two HQs
4x points for a mechanized unit
2x points for finishing a mech unit
4x points for marines
4x points upgrading 2 infantry corps to mechanized units

July-August
16x points for 4 mech units
2x points for a fighter
2x points for a pilot

French Build, from March-April to the end of the Year

15 points a turn x 5 turns = 75 points

I assume the points from the beginning of the year are lost to peace, as is the maintence spending.]

Assume maintenance is paid at the start of the year, also remember you still have to allocate points for any social spending you are doing. Whats left over you can use to buy units with. Next year you will have to allocate your maintenance and social spending as well as new builds, but you can spread it out over the 6 turns of the year.

[
March-April

3xMechanized Corp (6 points)

1xHQ (2 points)

1xTheater Supply Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

1xBomber Unit (single-engine divebomber, 2 points-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (2 points, five turns to completion)

1xRocket Artillery (1 point)

May-June

3xMechanized Corps (6 points-COMPLETE)

1xHQ (2 points)

1xPilot(four turns to completion)

1xRocket Artillery (1 point-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (2 points, five turns to completion)

Fighter Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

Bomber Unit (2 points-COMPLETE)

July-August

1xHQ (2 points-COMPLETE)

1xPilot (three turns to completion)

NOT COMPLETE WILL FINISH LATER

I am a bit confused... you have 18 points allocated for 3 mechanized corps, which require 4 points each to complete. So you need 12 points for 3 mechanized corps, and they take 4 turns. So if you bought 4 mechanized corps and spread the cost over 4 turns, it would work out to 20 points and they would become available in September. The HQ takes a year to finish and costs 6 points (1 point a turn in other words), which means it shows up in March 1935. Pilots take a year, cost 2 points paid up front. The aircraft indicated are single engined fighters and bombers (probably an attack plane), and take 2 turns to finish. Theater supply unit takes 2 points and 2 turns, and the artillery 2 points and 2 turns.

So you have 75 points, which can buy 4 mechanized corps (16 points), 1 HQ (6 points), 1 Theater supply unit (2 points), 1 Rocket artillery unit (2 points), 2 pilots (4 points), 1 single engined fighter (2 points), 1 single engined attack bomber (2 points) using 34 points. You are wanting to build ships (you pay for them up front or spread the cost over the construction time), and may want to consider just upgrading existing units into mechanized corps. Up to you though.

20 points per turn, possibly more if factories are repaired. How much does that cost?

half the cost of building a new one


March-April
6x points for two HQs
4x points for 2 pilots
4x points for 2 fighters
4x points for a mechanized unit
2x points to start a mechanized unit

May-June
6x points for two HQs
4x points for a mechanized unit
2x points for finishing a mech unit
4x points for marines
4x points upgrading 2 infantry corps to mechanized units

July-August
16x points for 4 mech units
2x points for a fighter
2x points for a pilot

2 HQs show up March 1935, 2 pilots March 1935, 2 infantry finish upgrade in November 1934, 1 new mechanized corps in November 1934, another in January, and Marines show up in November 1934. Another 4 mechanized units in March 1935, fighter in July 1934, 2 more fighters in November 1934, 1 pilot in March 1935, 2 more in July 1935.

Navy is screaming foul because it didn't get its 3 carrier planes (1 point each) or carrier pilot (2 points) in the budget. 3 carriers are currently out of service because of that. They are also annoyed about not getting the cruisers. (Remember the Navy and Army are bitter rivals in Japan).

OOC: When will the Middle Eastern Union hit tech 6? Would it be around 1937 or something.

OOC: When will the Middle Eastern Union hit tech 6? Would it be around 1937 or something.

1938, which was originally when China would have as well. (which now will have to be reevaluated). Since the Union is spending lots of money on the MEU, it may accelarate. Having to ponder that.

I'm going to have to leave the builds / production to someone else because I have no idea what to do, the points I have, and what are the best units to build.

All I can think of right now is spam infantry and HQ's because that's pretty much the only things I can build. No oil based stuff anymore- no tanks (too expensive), no planes (get massacred by Japan's Zero fighters so no point), and no Mechanized Corps because I have no oil and by the time I build them, Japan will overrun my last industry centers.

So I gotta build as many militia or infantry as I can, and HQ's for their +1 defense bonus, and thats pretty much about it.

Since everyone else is asking, when will South Africa hit Tech Level 6? I assume 1937 or '38, since I started doing the education and research stuff in '27?

Since everyone else is asking, when will South Africa hit Tech Level 6? I assume 1937 or '38, since I started doing the education and research stuff in '27?

1935

OOC: I was under the impression that I could spend two points per turn on any given single unit, thus allowing me to finish a Mech corps in two turns. I may be wrong...So I'll redo my build. My entire military is already comprised of Mech units, as I ugraded my reserve motorised inf to mech inf last year.

IC:

French Build, 1934

Social Spending, Level 3-20 points

3xmechanized corps (12 points)

2xHQ (12 points)

1xTheater supply unit (2 points)

2xRocket artillery unit (4 points)

2xpilots (4 points)

1xSingle engined fighter (2 points)

1xSingle engined attack bomber (2 points)

1xLight Carriers (7 points, armored deck)

2xEscort Carriers (8 points)

1 point reserve/surplus.

OOC: I was under the impression that I could spend two points per turn on any given single unit, thus allowing me to finish a Mech corps in two turns. I may be wrong...So I'll redo my build. My entire military is already comprised of Mech units, as I ugraded my reserve motorised inf to mech inf last year.

IC:

French Build, 1934

Social Spending, Level 3-20 points

3xmechanized corps (12 points)

2xHQ (12 points)

1xTheater supply unit (2 points)

2xRocket artillery unit (4 points)

2xpilots (4 points)

1xSingle engined fighter (2 points)

1xSingle engined attack bomber (2 points)

1xLight Carriers (7 points, armored deck)

2xEscort Carriers (8 points)

1 point reserve/surplus.

dropped that rule, its was too damn hard to keep track of

Since im only tech level <3 can I still buy the shipping units available?

If so I will spend the three points that I have accumulated so far on a single shipping unit.

1x Shipping unit (500,000 tons) 3 points

Britain will kindly fund some additional shipping units for Vietnam in next years budget as a sign of friendship, as well as perhaps a few more military units. In exchange Britian would like to know whether Vietnam thinks it may be capable of annexing Indo-China perhaps this year (whilst China is involved in the Civil War) or next year with additional British funded troops raised in Vietnam.

20x points per turn

September-October

2x points for a pilot
4x points for 2 carrier pilots
4x points for 2 carrier aircraft
9x points for 3 motorized corps
1x point for 1 infantry corps

November-December
1x point for finishing 1 infantry corps
10x points for 5 infantry corps
2x points for fortifications (Canton)
4x points for 2 pilots
2x points for a fighter
1x points for starting 1 infantry corps

20x points per turn

September-October

2x points for a pilot
4x points for 2 carrier pilots
4x points for 2 carrier aircraft
9x points for 3 motorized corps
1x point for 1 infantry corps

November-December
1x point for finishing 1 infantry corps
10x points for 5 infantry corps
2x points for fortifications (Canton)
4x points for 2 pilots
2x points for a fighter
1x points for starting 1 infantry corps

4 points gives you 4 carrier aircraft, remember pilots take a year to train. Spending points on fortifications seems ill advised, but up to you. Better to spend them for an artillery unit.

Effective for 1935, everyone currently at war takes their usual points per turn (bimonthly turn) multiply by 6 = 1935 points. Military maintenance must then be paid for all units that exist as of January 1935, then any social services. Remaining points are then divided by 6 and spread out over the course of the year.

Japan, you need to spend at least to level 1 social spending to continue to advance toward tech level 7. Because Japan did historically after all.

Nationalist China must spend points on social spending or the communists will end up owning the country side and the cities even if you do stop the Japanese invasion. (suggestion, up to you on this one).

Effective in 1935 Japanese air units will have the Type 97 Army fighter (the Oscar) and the Type 97 Navy fighter (the Zero), plus the Betty, Kate, Val and several other 1940 era aircraft (in our timeline).

4 points gives you 4 carrier aircraft, remember pilots take a year to train. Spending points on fortifications seems ill advised, but up to you. Better to spend them for an artillery unit.

Okay, I'll change them to artillery. And I'll also add next years stuff soon, too.

There is one question I have. Suppose I conquer all of China, minus the breakaway bits. Then suppose I rebuild every factory, and let's assume there are no revolts against the puppet government. Would I essentially control two nations, building up stuff for each like normal (providing two build lists), or would China's points be locked and given to me like points from Formosa?

Okay, I'll change them to artillery. And I'll also add next years stuff soon, too.

There is one question I have. Suppose I conquer all of China, minus the breakaway bits. Then suppose I rebuild every factory, and let's assume there are no revolts against the puppet government. Would I essentially control two nations, building up stuff for each like normal (providing two build lists), or would China's points be locked and given to me like points from Formosa?

Chinese points would be treated like Formosa, which also means that you would have to deal with the economic issues needed to prevent widespread rebellion.

Don't count your chickens just yet though..

Hungary’s New Builds for 1935:
Switch to War Footing
8(x3) (Domestic Points) + 1 (Airline) + 12 (Russian Points) = 37 Points

2.75 points for Military up-keep
5 points for domestic services
1.25 for building Egyetem Város (University City) at Keszthely
2 for pilot unit
4 for one air transport (International Airline)
22 points for factory (22/24 done)

So next year I will have 8 Domestic + 2 Airline on regular footing

1935-1937: Continue National Effort and put resources into Education and Industry as well as Health and Welfare... and hopefully work with the Military as well...

1938: Resume Normal Spending with same emphasis on general welfare, defence, education and so on...

Hungary its 36 points for a factory not 24 under national effort..I think

I switched to war footing on yah.

After the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army in September, both Trotsky and Kirov agree to shift the Union's economy to War Footing (I was really hoping to avoid that), beginning with a National Effort starting to take effect in October.

Since this is a full quarter-year, it seems to me that I should get extra points equivalent to one-quarter of my current industry-derived economic production (doubled for the year then halved for what I've already allocated then divided by four for the quarter).

So I will begin to spend those 120 points unless there's some problem with that I haven't seen.

The National Effort is expected to transition to a full Wartime economy in January.

Oi.

war footing occurs 12 months after national effort.. takes time to gear up.. so earliest should be 1936 for War Economy, with growth bonus in 1937.

Assuming it lasts that long.

Korean Build-

National Enrichment (AKA National Effort/Five Year) is still on, so Ten points plus 6 extra from Union.

IC:

1934-

devotion of 7 points (6 donated, one domestic) to support for basic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance.
2 points to Upgrade to Tech Level 6
6 points for a HQ
One point to go to Nationalist China as food and ammo aid

war footing occurs 12 months after national effort.. takes time to gear up.. so earliest should be 1936 for War Economy, with growth bonus in 1937.

Assuming it lasts that long.
Shucks, only a thousand points instead of fourteen hundred. Well, I'll probably live.

to represent the fact the the United States and Britian have each built more ships than practically everyone else has put together, and the fact that US and British capital ships, including carriers were built in 2-3 years on average, US and British construction times for ships are reduced by half during National Effort and Wartime.

(I have been doing a lot of reading lately on warships and historical construction times)

China can now build infantry corps for 1 point.

As chemical weapons have seen battlefield use, you no longer get double offensive strength if attacking a tech level 5 or 6 unit. Armies have had a chance to study the effects and are now prepared to fight with it.

You can use chemical weapons to double the strategic bombing capability of your bombers attacking cities however. Civilians don't have MOPP gear. This is definitely an atrocity though.

Stratetic bombing may be conducted now against enemy production centers. Don't expect impressive results, as no one except the Americans even has a deployed 4 engined bomber, and even the B17C doesn't carry a big bomb load compared to later bombers or even later versions of the B17.

Only 2 and 4 engined bombers may attempt strategic bombardment. The effect is that if successful, it destroys 1 or more factories in the city attacked. It takes a lot of bombers to get that kind of result.

By the way, no one has an escort fighter yet except the Japanese, who are about to deply the A6M Zero (known as the Type 94 in this universe)

1935 Population: 9.973 million
Total Points: 22 (10 from industry, 1 from commerce, doubled for National Effort)

Production Schedule
Military Upkeep-1.25 points
Military Upgrades-6 points*
Education and Safety Net-2 points (basic schools and clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance)
2x Shipping Unit (1,000,000 tons)-6 points
2x Field Artillery-4 points
Military Research-3.75 points

*As per the main post with the various costs, in order to upgrade my Mechanized Corp and two Light Ship units I must repurchase the Mechanized Corp (at half cost) and pay two points for each light ship unit. If I misunderstood the post, let me know.

According to the all-knowing Galveston Bay, I graduate to Tech Level 6 in 1935, so I planned accordingly. If I messed anything up as far as upgrades or costs, let me know and I will correct the problems.

Stratetic bombing may be conducted now against enemy production centers. Don't expect impressive results, as no one except the Americans even has a deployed 4 engined bomber, and even the B17C doesn't carry a big bomb load compared to later bombers or even later versions of the B17.

Only 2 and 4 engined bombers may attempt strategic bombardment. The effect is that if successful, it destroys 1 or more factories in the city attacked. It takes a lot of bombers to get that kind of result.

By the way, no one has an escort fighter yet except the Japanese, who are about to deply the A6M Zero (known as the Type 94 in this universe)
I don't know exactly what an "escort fighter" is as distinct from any other fighter, but I am wondering about how soon four-engined bombers might be available to the Red Airforce. Neither the Germans nor the Russians developed any decent heavy bombers in RL until surprisingly late.

1935 Population: 9.973 million
Total Points: 22 (10 from industry, 1 from commerce, doubled for National Effort)


I believe that commerce points are not doubled during a National Effort. (No matter how hard your citizens work, your ships don't hold more cargo.) Thus, it would appear that you have only 21 points.

I don't know exactly what an "escort fighter" is as distinct from any other fighter, but I am wondering about how soon four-engined bombers might be available to the Red Airforce. Neither the Germans nor the Russians developed any decent heavy bombers in RL until surprisingly late.

a fighter with sufficient range to escort bombers to and from targets beyond the immediate battle area... or 8 hexes in Europe or 4 hexes in Asia (using the WIF maps).

Most of the fighters currently in service have a range of 3-6 in Europe

look up these as candidates for a Union long range bomber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390
http://www.luft46.com/junkers/ju488.html
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/do317.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_274

they show up as possibilities 5 years before posted in the links, as does everything else

comphrensive look at German aircraft can be found here
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/index.html

I believe that commerce points are not doubled during a National Effort. (No matter how hard your citizens work, your ships don't hold more cargo.) Thus, it would appear that you have only 21 points.

you are correct.. only production is increased, not commerce

to represent the fact the the United States and Britian have each built more ships than practically everyone else has put together, and the fact that US and British capital ships, including carriers were built in 2-3 years on average, US and British construction times for ships are reduced by half during National Effort and Wartime.

Woohoo, too bad i've never been on national effort yet! It may be time to try it out soon.

Vietnam's last build of the year.

September, October, November and December.

2 points go towards marine unit to be finished next year

a fighter with sufficient range to escort bombers to and from targets beyond the immediate battle area... or 8 hexes in Europe or 4 hexes in Asia (using the WIF maps).

Most of the fighters currently in service have a range of 3-6 in Europe

look up these as candidates for a Union long range bomber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390
http://www.luft46.com/junkers/ju488.html
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/do317.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_274

they show up as possibilities 5 years before posted in the links, as does everything else

comphrensive look at German aircraft can be found here
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/index.html
Yeah, I've looked at several of those - so no Ju 390 till '38, eh? The Do 317 doesn't even come along till '36. Even the Me 264 only shows up in '37. Oi. Guess I'll just allocate some research points next year (Amerika Bomber Projekt) and for now just build swarms of the same Il-4s that I've been using as "medium/strategic" bombers. They have the range if not the payload. And what about the DB-3M? They're supposed to be a lot quicker to build than Il-4s.

And I guess I have to research long-range fighters, now, too. Oi.

And I guess I'll start building swarms of Fw-87 heavy fighters for escort missions, until we come up with something better.

1934 Expenditures for Rumania

24 Points(20 Industry/4 Shipping)
Growth: 2%
Military Maintence
4xTech 5 Motorised Corps-1 Point
1xFighter(IK-2)-1 Point
1xPilot-.25
10xTech 5 Destroyers(1 light ship counter)-.25 Points
2xTech 5 Light Crusiers-.5 Points

Total:3 Points

Military Expecditure
1 Heavy Crusier-2 points (Paid in Full in 1933)Reaching Completetion

Domestic Spending
Level 5 Education/Social net-5 Points
Supprt to France-2 Points

Total Spending:10 Points
Surplus:14 Points

I believe that commerce points are not doubled during a National Effort. (No matter how hard your citizens work, your ships don't hold more cargo.) Thus, it would appear that you have only 21 points.

Ah, thanks. That makes sense.

REVISED BUILD

1935 Population: 9.973 million
Total Points: 21 (10 from industry, doubled for National Effort, 1 from commerce)

Production Schedule
Military Upkeep-1.25 points
Military Upgrades-6 points
Education and Safety Net-2 points (basic schools and clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance)
2x Shipping Unit (1,000,000 tons)-6 points
2x Field Artillery-4 points
Military Research-2.75 points

1. What happens to commerce points during war? I'm sure the Japanese will interfere with our Pacific trade (both maritime and aerial), but they've got little power elsewhere in the world.

2. Is it 1 carrier aircraft unit per fleet carrier, or more? If we end up fielding carriers I want to know.

1. What happens to commerce points during war? I'm sure the Japanese will interfere with our Pacific trade (both maritime and aerial), but they've got little power elsewhere in the world.

2. Is it 1 carrier aircraft unit per fleet carrier, or more? If we end up fielding carriers I want to know.

I adjust according to what is happening on commerce... you would probably lose some trade as access to the Pacific ports would be reduced. Figure most Union trade is in the Baltic, Black Sea, Med and Atlantic though

Fleet carriers carry 1 carrier plane and pilot, 2 light carriers needed to carry 1 plane and 1 pilot, and 4 escort carriers to carry 1 plane and 1 pilot (which is why they are useful mostly for ASW work).

carrier planes represent 75 - 100 aircraft

The Year of 1935, The MEU govt still on a five year plan mode for the nation, the points that MEU will get from this plan will be 44 points and plus 18 from the Soviets, plus 6 points from cargo shipping, so 68 points in total for this turn alone

26 points for maintaining the arm forces. Just leaving 42 points for state projects

Tech 5 Light ship (10 destroyers for 8 points)

Headquarters units (6 points)

Theater supply units (2 points)

Fighter units (2 points)

2 Pilots 4 points

22 points for social programs (for Level III State Education and welfare programs)

22 points for social programs (for Level III State Education and welfare programs)

Why so many points? It only costs 3 points/10 million people for Level III social programs, and the MEU has a population of 35.6 million. Unless I'm missing something, this means that you can provide level III programs for only 10.68 points (round up to 11).

Why so many points? It only costs 3 points/10 million people for Level III social programs, and the MEU has a population of 35.6 million. Unless I'm missing something, this means that you can provide level III programs for only 10.68 points (round up to 11).
Hmm...you have point..I think..if that's the case I am going level 4 social progrmas..does that mean college is free in my nation, if so...WOOT! I have to get back to you on that...

LEVEL 6 BITCHES

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1935)
Population:10.6 million
1935 builds: 24 points base, plus 22 for shipping and airliners.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare). -10 pointsbasic schools, clinics, high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance, public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled, unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges, free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working.

National Maintenence:
Apparently Paid for by your local US Gov't
4 x Garrison = 1p
3 x Alpine Corp = 3p
1 x Mechanized Corp = 1p
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
1 x Motorized Artillery = .5p
1 x Theatre Supply Unit = .5p
8 x Fighters = 8p
2 x Light Ships = 2p
TOTAL: 18p

National Builds: (36p left)
1 x Pilot = 2p
1 x Light Bomber (Single Engine) = 2p
4 x Garrisons to lvl 6 = 4p
3 x Alpine Corp to lvl 6 = 4.5p
1 x Mechanized Corp to lvl 6 = 1.5p
1 x HQ Unit to lvl 6 = 1.5p
1 x Motorized Artillery to lvl 6 = 1.5p
(17p so far, 19 left)
4 x Merchant Marine = 12p
3 x Flak Artillery = 6p
1 Point Reserve

1934 Expenditures for Rumania

24 Points(20 Industry/4 Shipping)
Growth: 2%
(Snip)
Total Spending:10 Points
Surplus:14 Points

Unless you have a reason for having a huge surplus, why not go into Cut Government Spending mode and get the extra 3% growth? (Incidentally, 5% growth would mean a full point of productivity gain.)

Base Points 23(plus one from growth)
Merchant Marine: 3 points
Foreign Assistance: 12 points
Total Points: 38

1935
Industrial Builds:
15 points into factory(28 more need past this)

National Maintenence:
6 points for military(just to maintain sanity i am paying tech 6 levels for all units right now, even tech 5 units)
10 points for level 4 welfare

National Builds:
1xMerchant Marine 3 points
2xpoint Upgrade 2 mech corps to Armored corps

Upgrade to level 6 units:
2nd Mech Corps-2x points
1st Infantry Corps-1x point

Points Spent: 38

1935 Builds
12 Points(half of 24)
Government Cuts mode
5% Growth

Military Expenditure
4xTech 5 Motorised Corps-1 Points
1xFighter-1 Point
1xPilot-.25 Points
10xTech 5 Destroyers(1 Light Ship Counter)-.25 Points
2xTech 5 Light Cruisers-.5 Points
1x Tech 5 Heavy Cruiser-.5 Points

Total:3.5 points

Domestic Expenditure
level 5 Social/Education Net for 10 million People-5 Points
Aid to France-2 Points

Total Spending:10.5 Points
Surplus:1.5 Points

Level 5 is ten points, not five.

I'm pretty sure that he meant level IV services. Otherwise, natural growth would be reduced to 1%/year anyway. (Besides, level IV services are very good already, so there's very little point in going to level V.)

Edit: By the way, since 4 of Rumania's points come from shipping, Rumania actually has 14 points (4+20/2).

We're gonna have to make this guy an Economic Moderator, and he's (?) not even playing.

Shit! I can't believe I made that mistake x_X

1935 Builds
12 Points(half of 24)
Government Cuts mode
5% Growth

Military Expenditure
4xTech 5 Motorised Corps-1 Points
1xFighter-1 Point
1xPilot-.25 Points
10xTech 5 Destroyers(1 Light Ship Counter)-.25 Points
2xTech 5 Light Cruisers-.5 Points
1x Tech 5 Heavy Cruiser-.5 Points

Total:3.5 points

Domestic Expenditure
level 4 Social/Education Net for 10 million People-5 Points
Aid to France-2 Points

Total Spending:10.5 Points
Surplus:1.5 Points

Cut Spending also makes sense if the Socialists lost seats in Parliament as a result of anti-Soviet sentiment.

French Spending, 1935

90 points, minus 20 for Social Services, minus 24 maintence

leaves 46 points. 8 points/turn

January-Feburary

Begin Two Mech Corp (2 point)

Anti-tank unit (2 points)

Pilot (2 points)

Begin Armored Cavalry Unit (2 points)

March-April

Continue Two Mech Corps (2 points)

2 Field Artillery Units (4 points)

Continue Armored Cavalry Unit (2 points)

May-June

Continue Two Mech Corps (2 points)

Pilot (2 points)

Single-Engine Bomber Unit (2 points)

Contine Armored Cavalry Unit (2 points, completed in July-August)

July-August

Finish Two Mech Corps (2 points)

Continue and Complete Fighter Unit (1 point)

Begin Armored Cavalry Unit (1 point)

1 Pilot (2 points)

1 Fighter Unit (2 points)

Rest to be decided as year progresses and combat plays out

French Spending, 1935

90 points, minus 20 for Social Services, minus 24 maintence

leaves 46 points. Divide by 6 equals 6 points/ turn.

]

actually I will give you 8 points a turn, as it doesn't divide evenly and you only accounted for 36 of your 46 points remaining.

I'm pretty sure that he meant level IV services. Otherwise, natural growth would be reduced to 1%/year anyway. (Besides, level IV services are very good already, so there's very little point in going to level V.)

Edit: By the way, since 4 of Rumania's points come from shipping, Rumania actually has 14 points (4+20/2).

who are you? Puppet nation or someone interested who isn't in the game yet (in which case, I am sure we can find you a spot)

who are you? Puppet nation or someone interested who isn't in the game yet (in which case, I am sure we can find you a spot)

Middle Snu is nobody's puppet.

I would be interested in joining, except that:

1. I haven't done rp in this forum yet, so I'm ineligible.
2. My knowledge of history is distinctly sub-par. I'm a little intimidated by the level of knowledge required, and after seeing the recent criticism of Sharina’s China, I’m afraid that I would make a mess of things.

Why not join? We need some more people! Italy is still open, as is most of Africa and parts of Asia, Europe, and the Americas.

Remember, there is always Wikipedia. I love it so.

Base Points 23(plus one from growth)
Merchant Marine: 3 points
Foreign Assistance: 12 points
Total Points: 38

10 points for level 4 welfare


According to the front page, Yugoslavia has a population of only 11.65 million. If you want to pay 10 points for level 4 welfare, I don't imagine that anyone would stop you. However, six points would be more than enough. You might want to put the four saved points into a merchant marine, since that will get you production faster your factory would.

heh, you had a good streak going, but anyway, that information is from a few years ago, my current pupulation is somewhere around 13-14 million, though could we get a mod to decide on what to do on smaller nations that are somewhere in between?

Middle Snu is nobody's puppet.

I would be interested in joining, except that:

1. I haven't done rp in this forum yet, so I'm ineligible.
2. My knowledge of history is distinctly sub-par. I'm a little intimidated by the level of knowledge required, and after seeing the recent criticism of Sharina’s China, I’m afraid that I would make a mess of things.

Well, your still welcome to join. Don't worry about the criticism, its something to learn from. Besides we need some South American or African nations. Plus Mexico just is open now...I belive you would be weclome to our rping group, besides, just question when your not sure about something before doing it.

i must agree with Ottoman, we would be more than happy to help you if you ever have questions, since the hardest part you seem to understand (the economic part) and thats the only part me ottoman really hate helping people with, well we have only done it once but still :P

Middle Snu is nobody's puppet.

I would be interested in joining, except that:

1. I haven't done rp in this forum yet, so I'm ineligible.
2. My knowledge of history is distinctly sub-par. I'm a little intimidated by the level of knowledge required, and after seeing the recent criticism of Sharina’s China, I’m afraid that I would make a mess of things.

I'd be honored if you would join E20. Exceptions can be made to "no RP in NS yet". After all, there are other sites where RP does take place, like Spacebattles, AVSVS, Stardestroyer, Apolyton, FanFiction, etc. If the person can provide good RP from those other sites, then no problem.

Besides, there's always the option of a trial run of good newbie candidates like Middle Snu. If the newbie does a good job, he / she can stay in E20, but if he / she does a horrible job like Comstan, then once the trial's up, the newbie has to relinquish control of his / her nation in E20.

However, I doubt Middle Snu would be like that. I think he'll make a good RP'er in E20. Perhaps replace Comstan as Mexico, or have him do Argentina or Italy or Greece or something.

heh, you had a good streak going, but anyway, that information is from a few years ago, my current pupulation is somewhere around 13-14 million, though could we get a mod to decide on what to do on smaller nations that are somewhere in between?

I stand corrected.

However, even at 14 million citizens, level 4 welfare still costs only 7 points, allowing you to buy an extra merchant marine unit this year.

Middle Snu is nobody's puppet.

I would be interested in joining, except that:

1. I haven't done rp in this forum yet, so I'm ineligible.
2. My knowledge of history is distinctly sub-par. I'm a little intimidated by the level of knowledge required, and after seeing the recent criticism of Sharina’s China, I’m afraid that I would make a mess of things.

as one of the referees of this RP, I am willing to let you join. Vas is another, and he clearly thinks you are ok.

send me a telegram if you want a nation to play. Wikepedia is pretty good source material, and at this point sufficient divergence has occured that it shouldn't be too bad a problem as long as you have the ability to research.

Well then, I guess I can sign up, if it's alright with the Grand High Moderators.

I can't start playing until Friday at the earliest, so until then I'll just keep pointing out errors in builds. There's plenty of that I haven't spotted yet, I'm sure.

I'd be glad to have Middle Snu join, especially as Italy or Argentina (on that note I think I still have an alliance with the Argentines). Seems a decent kind of guy (or gal) anyway.

I'll get my build up shortly and you can check that for me!

LEVEL 6

The Republic of Gran Colombia (1935)
Population:10.6 million
1935 builds: 24 points base, plus 22 for shipping and airliners.


OOC
the US will provide 10 points for 1935... spend them as you will. More available next year

USA 1935
US Population (1930 census) 130 million
202 production points available x 2 = 404 (National Effort, +1% growth for next year) plus 6 points for the Philippines, 34 points for shipping and airlines. 444 points total

Military maintenance
120 points
National Safety net (level 5 spending)(unemployment insurance, food stamps, junior college system) 65 points
10 points to Japan (represents US oil and steel exports to Japan)
10 points to Colombia (military support)
10 points to Vietnam (military support)(proposed)
36 points to Vietnam (economic aid)(proposed)
6 points to unspecified military aid (to be determined later)
187 points

Under construction (already paid for)
2 North Carolina class battleships (South Dakota, Indiana, available July 1936)
2 Montana class battleships (Montana, Texas, available January 1937)
1 Enterprise class carrier (Bon Homme Richard, January 1936)

New Construction 257 points available
4 4-engined naval air (B24) 16 points (available July 1935)
3 4-engined strategic bombers (B17E) 12 points (available September 1935)
6 Army pilots 12 points (available January 1936)
4 Carrier pilots 8 points (available January 1936)
Tennessee Valley Authority (4 factories) 72 points
1 Essex class Fleet carrier (available July 1936, Essex), 8 points
upgrade 10 garrison units to 10 Mechanized corps (available March) 10 points
4 2-engined bomber units (4 B25)(available July)12 points
4 light ships (40 tech level 6 destroyers) 40 points
4 submarine units (40 tech level 6 submarines) 40 points
3 amphibious fleets (available July) 18 points
upgrade 2 motorized infantry corps into marine corps (actually train them for amphibious landings, they are still army troops)(July) 4 points
convert 2 motorized infantry corps into airborne corps (March) 2 points
convert 3 field artillery units to motorized field artillery units 3 points

In addition, the US transfers its B17As (which are being retired from US service) to Japan (enough to form 1 bomber unit for Japan, if pilots are available to fly it)

[QUOTE=Vas Pokhoronim] 16 points for funding Scientific and Cultural Endeavors 12 points used for military research (2pts/turn each: long-range aircraft, heavy aircraft, advanced aircraft propulsion, advanced radar systems, advanced munitions, advanced rocketry)[ /QUOTE]

you don't really need to spend on research at this point except for rocketry, jet or nuclear research.... all three each require 12 points each but are not available period until 1940 at the earliest (for play balance, complexity and some other reasons)

things like long range aircraft, radar, munitions either come later (with tech level increase) or as natural developments. Remember everyone, no B29 (for example) until a B17 shows up, no Midway class carriers without Essex class carriers etc.

Progressive steps in other words for regular technology (jets etc are high tech at this point).

you don't really need to spend on research at this point except for rocketry, jet or nuclear research.... all three each require 12 points each but are not available period until 1940 at the earliest (for play balance, complexity and some other reasons)

From the way you said it I presume you mean 12 points overall and not per turn?

If so I just need to spend the 12 points I had on Whittle this year (I already gave him 12 last year) and then my build will be ready for posting.

you don't really need to spend on research at this point except for rocketry, jet or nuclear research.... all three each require 12 points each but are not available period until 1940 at the earliest (for play balance, complexity and some other reasons)

things like long range aircraft, radar, munitions either come later (with tech level increase) or as natural developments. Remember everyone, no B29 (for example) until a B17 shows up, no Midway class carriers without Essex class carriers etc.

Progressive steps in other words for regular technology (jets etc are high tech at this point).
I have no (4-engined) heavy bombers available to me at this point in time (or escort fighters), as far as I know, and Warsaw is in a race with London to develop the first working military jet, and I was under the impression that advanced radar (and probably munitions) would be important for development of a working guided missile or tactical missile system.

If that stuff just happens naturally, I'll spend the points elsewhere.

From the way you said it I presume you mean 12 points overall and not per turn?

If so I just need to spend the 12 points I had on Whittle this year (I already gave him 12 last year) and then my build will be ready for posting.

although time will still need to pass (no tech level 6 high tech until 1940)

I have no (4-engined) heavy bombers available to me at this point in time (or escort fighters), as far as I know, and Warsaw is in a race with London to develop the first working military jet, and I was under the impression that advanced radar (and probably munitions) would be important for development of a working guided missile or tactical missile system.

If that stuff just happens naturally, I'll spend the points elsewhere.

actually you do have a 4 engined bomber.. look up the Focke Wulf 200 Condor and the An22.

Escort fighters show up pretty soon, look up Mig 3,

everything else except the Jet, Rocketry (as in actual V2 type missiles), Guided bombs (as in television and radio guided bombs) and nuclear research is considered regular tech progression. The things specifically mentioned are HIGH TECH at this tech level, and require specific research, and some circumstances to happen

The An-22 is a transport from the '60s. The Condor is a naval plane, though I agree it would be useful to have some of those, but the MiG-3, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have a higher range than any other fighter, and I was under the impression that range is what distinguished escort fighters from other warplanes.

although time will still need to pass (no tech level 6 high tech until 1940)

Naturally. I expected no less.

Economy post follows:

--------------------------------------------------

New British economy stuff (1935)

Population: 39.1m (1930), a normal economy, 2% growth, yields 124 points (including 2 from airlines, 28 from shipping)

MILITARY MAINTENANCE

Total: 68 points

BUILDS

12 points to build 1 Tech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 build time 2.5 years due to national effort (16 inch guns), this will replace the aging QE class ships when placed alongside another 1 begun last year and 2 the year before.
1 point to upgrade regular field artillery to motorised
15 points to build 1 Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, Cost 15 build time 6 years (18 inch guns) [Ah heck, I've been resisting it for ages but if those damned Ruskies are building one the RN’ll have to keep up!]

Total: 28 points

DOMESTIC OUTLAYS

5 points per 10 million people= 20 points on welfare, yields a NHS, basic education, income support etc.

Total: 20 points

RESEARCH

None currently undertaken (apart from Frank Whittle’s jet engine which has already been invested in)

FOREIGN AID

8 points to Vietnam to spend on military

Total: 8 points

TOTAL=124 POINTS SPENT THIS TURN

Ah heck, I've been resisting it for ages but if those damned Ruskies are building one the RN’ll have to keep up!
Actually, we're building six. Those are the Karl Marx class. Expect the Union class to be even more monstrous (though we'll probably only build a couple of those).

And hey! I just found the creaky old TB-3. We do have a four-engine heavy bomber (they even carried tanks!). I'm sure they've been replaced by TB-7s now, though, which I've also just found. And I guess even our primitive Bf109s were classed as "escort fighters." So, Jet Engines and Rocketry and Guided Bombs - and if they don't show up till '40, then that gives me six years to spread out thirty-six research points. I'll edit our 1935 budget accordingly.

Jesus, 6 of the monsters! Plus a few even larger ones? That's going to be pretty impressive (and also pretty expensive once they are on the bottom of the sea!) just the thing to scare (I mean inspire) the peasentry into toing the line...

The An-22 is a transport from the '60s. The Condor is a naval plane, though I agree it would be useful to have some of those, but the MiG-3, on the other hand, doesn't appear to have a higher range than any other fighter, and I was under the impression that range is what distinguished escort fighters from other warplanes.

Sorry, meant the Pe-8
http://www.geocities.com/aircraft42/Bombers/pe8.htm

the Mig3 has 110 km better range than the ME-109 (your best fighter at this point). It is not as good, but its better than nothing. Its adequate to escort medium bombers from say Northern France to London and back, or Vladivostok to say Hokkaido and back. Of course, an A6M would make mincemeat out of it, but you can't have everything.