NationStates Jolt Archive

ooc
This is the principal economic thread for Alternate History 20th Century Role Play, which has managed to reach 1935

reserved for news and information

The US and UK reach tech level 7 in 1945, with Colombia, Australia, Sweden and Italy reaching tech level 7 in 1946. .

Economic production
Nations principally gain income from their own internal production, commerce and colonial resources.

Industrialized nations have production centers. A portion of their production can applied to the government for spending.

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 5%. Each production center provides 1 point

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%
Peacetime is the norm. Each production center provides 2 points

Market Economy National Effort, and each production center is worth 3 points, growth 1% (essentially simulates large scale budget deficits)

Command Economy National Effort, production centers are worth 3 points, growth 1% (requires level 5 social spending to offset social costs)

National effort is a short situation, as a long term effort will strain the economy. Each production center is worth 2 points. Incidently, if National Efforts continue for more than 5 years, there is a penalty. Accumalated budget deficits in the Market economies trigger a recession of 1 year for every year of the national effort (-2% growth for duration). In Command Economies social unrest begins unless social services are increased to the next level.

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), production centers x 6, growth 1%

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), each production center is worth 9 points, no growth

Market Economy Total War (not available until second year of war), Production centers worth 12 points, no growth first year, -1% growth second and additional years. Plus -2% growth for each year postwar for every year Total War economy was in place. (simulates post war recession, large budget deficits).

This is to simulate the fact that Market economies have more capital available and more slack then Command economies but are slower to respond. They also can accumulate massive debts.

Growth
Points added to the economy from growth create new production centers. At cut spending they add 2 production centers for every point of growth, at peacetime they add 1 production center, and at national effort and wartime levels they add .5 (national effort) production centers, and in wartime they add .25 or .1 (wartime spending and total war spending).

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 point per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 points per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 points for every 1 million people.

Commerce
This represents your international trade and for some nations may very well exceed what they produce domestically. That is fine and allowed and historically valid. Commerce points are added to the economy after production points are determined.

Merchant marine (international trade) adds 1 build point a year for every Half million tons of shipping (1 shipping unit) at tech levels 4 – 6, and is the principal reason that Norway, Britian and Greece have as many points as they do. At tech level 7, shipping points are worth 1.5 points for every shipping unit, and at tech level 8 they are worth 2 points per shipping unit. Ships are more efficient, containerized shipping arrives and later on computer invoicing and other factors makes shipping more efficient still.

Airlines - Represents not really so much a single airline, as government subsidies, building the airports, and all that goes with it. Provides 2 build points year if a national airline, and 2 build points a year for international airline at tech levels 5 and 6. At tech level 7, for the cost of 1 point for every 10 million people, nations can construct large airports and secondary commuter airfields. Each airline unit is worth 2 points per airline unit constructed, and up to 10 points can be added this way. At tech level 8, the overnight shipping industry becomes a major force in the economy, and up to 15 points can be added to the economy,.

Build points provided by merchant marine and airlines do not count against the population limit for build points (the advantages of trade). However, no more than 30 build points can be earned that way. (there is a limit to how much the international economy will support after all) at tech levels 4 – 6, and no more then 40 points at tech level 7 and 50 points at tech level 8.

Foreign Aid
Is allowed, and nations may loan build points to one another, or even give them as a gift.

So to determine your build points, you add your domestic income plus your commerce plus whatever foreign aid you receive and that is what you have to spend each year.
Economic points are used to buy and maintain military units, as well as for social spending, loaning to other nations (or paying them back), economic improvements and special research projects.

Special Recovery Rules
To simulate the urgent need to rebuild postwar, a nation can salvage damaged production centers. For every 2 production centers salvaged, 1 production center is repaired. However, the other is permanently gone and will have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Special Note
Economic statistics (see below) are updated every 5 years for NPC nations and eveyone else, although continual updates for PC nations can be found as they conduct builds in this thread

Population information is based on information found here
http://www.geohive.com/

adjustments for various events in the game are taken into account

production centers in paranthesis such as Berlin (5) are damaged and will require repairs, or can be salvaged at 1 fixed for every 1 scrapped.

Former Pact States
Russia (includes Siberia and Transurals regions)
Prewar: 100 (50 Russia, 30 Urals, 20 Siberia Prewar population: 95 million Postwar population 85 million
Production centers: Vitebsk 5, Kalinin 5, Moscow (0), Minsk 5, Tula 3, Kursk 2, Saratov 5, Volgograd (0), Krasnador 2, Gorki (0), Yaraslavl (0), Smolensk 2, Rostov 3, Kazan 5, Perm 5, Sverdlovsk 5 Magnitogorsk (0), Kubyshev 5, Omsk (0) Novosibirsk 5, Irkustk 5, Chita 5,
Oil points at Grozny, Maikop, Perm

Permanently lost Petrograd 5 (to Finland)/Vladivostok (5) to Manchuria
Total production centers available: 62
Needing repair: 5
Commerce: 2 points (national airline, no merchant shipping remains)

Russia has no direct access to the Atlantic Ocean or Baltic Sea, but does have access to the Black Sea and limited access to the Pacific Ocean.
In 1944, Russia has a military force of 6 infantry corps, 2 air transport units, mostly used for disaster relief and to deal with rebel communist guerillas. It salvaged as much industry as it could, and the above is what is available as of January 1945.

Russia spent the following in 1944 Level 1 social spending for 8.5 points, Civil defense for 8.5 points, military for 4 points, 12 points to fix Kursk production, 5 points to create international airline. Russia has lost the Kuriles to Japan, but keeps Sakkalin Island.

The Ukraine
Prewar 40 production centers, 35 million people
Postwar: production centers: 20 plus 6 shipping units, 1 national airline, tech level 6.5
1944 spending: 23 (level 1 social services 6.5, 4 infantry corps – 1 point, repair 1 production center 12 points, build 1 shipping unit – 3 points)
Stalino 5, Dneipopetrovsk 5, Kiev 5, Odessa 5, Kharkov 5, (used 2005 map of Ukraine)

Poland (includes Lithuania and Latvia)
Prewar production centers: 30, plus 35 million people
Postwar production centers: 35, plus 45 million people tech level 6.5
Warsaw 5, Lodz 5, Krakow 5, Katowice 5, Brest-Litovsk 5, Lvov 5, Riga 5 plus 5 shipping points, 1 national airline
1944 spending 42 points social services 3 – 21 points, military with 2 armored corps, 8 infantry corps, 8 flak units, 3 Mig 15 jet fighter units, 3 C47 transport units, 8 pilots – 9 points, assist Rumania rebuild 1 production center –12 points
(use 1939 map of all three nations, less the Polish corridor which remains German). The designers for MIG (Mikuyen Gregorivich) have moved to Warsaw, as has Sikorsky Aviation, giving Poland a leading role in aviation design.

Central Asian Republic
Postwar 4 production centers Tashkent, 1 production center Alma Ata, 8 million people, tech level 6, 1 national airline, 1 international airline,
1948 budget: 15 (national effort)level 3 social spending 2.4 points, 4 tech level 6 infantry corps 2 points, Intelligence service 5 points, purchase 2 pilots (4 points), 2 IL10 (2 points)
(Turkmenistan, Kirghizia, Uzbekistan, Khazakstan, Tajikistan

Kashgaria
Postwar 2 production centers, 5 million people (production centers at Urumchi, Kashgar) tech level 6, 1 national airline,
1948 budget 2: level 3 social spending 1.5 point, 2 tech level 6 garrison units 1 point
(modern Chinese region of Sinkiang) Receiving UN assistance to modernize transportation network (finish in 1948)

Azerbajain
Postwar 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 2 million people (oil is in Baku)
1948 budget: 6 (level 5 social spending – 1 point, 1 jet fighter unit, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) – 6 points)
(2005 map)

Georgian and Armenian Union
Prewar: 1 oil point, 2 million people,
Postwar 1 oil point, 4 million people + 1 national airline
1944 budget: 3 (level 3 social spending – 1 point, 4 tech level 6 infantry corps – 2 points)
(2005 maps)

Germany
Prewar production: 58, population 69 million
Post war production: 24 (34) 1 oil points, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 5 shipping units, population 60 million tech level 6.5
Hamburg 5, Essen (5), Dusseldorf (5), Cologne (5), Hannover (5), Stuttgart (4), Nuremburg 5, Leipzig 5, Dresden 2, Berlin (5), Munich 5, Stettin (5), Danzig 2
1944 budget: 28 (level 2 social spending 14, repair 1 production center 12, 8 garrison units – 2 points + 60 from LTA which repaired Hamburg
(1938 Germany plus Sudetenland and Polish corridor minus Schlieswig Holstein, Austria and Memel)

Rumania
Prewar: 10 production centers, 3 oil points, 20 million people
Postwar: 5 production centers, 1 (2) oil points, 19 million people tech level 5, 1 shipping unit
Bucharest 5, Constanza
1944 budget: 2 (level 1 social spending – 2, 4 garrison units (0 points), plus rebuilding assistance from Poland – 2 points, modern map)

Hungary
Prewar: 5 production centers, 9 million people
Postwar: 5 production centers (all in Budapest), 1 national airline, 9 million people, tech level 6
1944 budget: 7 (level 3 social spending – 3 points, 2 garrison units, 1 HQ, 1 Mig 15, jet fighter unit, 1 pilot – 4 points)
(modern map)

Czechslovakia
Prewar: 9 production centers, 16 million people
Postwar: 9 production centers, 15 million people, 1 national airline, Prague 5 production centers, Bratislavia – 4 production centers, tech level 6.5
Available points: 11 (level 5 social services – 7.5 points, 2 alpine corps, 1 Mig 15 jet fighter unit, 1 pilot, -- 3.5 points)
(1939 map)

Yugoslavia (doesn’t count Slovenian production)
Prewar 4 production centers, 14 million people
Postwar: Belgrade 1 (3), 1 national airline, 4 shipping units, 8 million people tech level 5
Available points: 6 (level 1 social services – 1.5 points, 2 garrison units - .5 points, year 1 of 3 production center repair – 4 points, aid from Italy 12 points)
(1939 map less Slovenia and Macedonia and Kosovo)

Albania and Kosovo
Prewar: no production, 1 resource point, 1 million people
Postwar: no production, 1 resource point, 1 national airline, 3 million people, tech level 5
Available points: 3 (level 5 social services – 1.5 points, 3 tech level 6 alpine corps – 1.5 points)

Slovenia
Prewar: 4 production centers,
Postwar: 4 production centers, 1 national airline, 4 million people, tech level 6
Available points: 6 (level 5 social services – 2 points, 2 alpine corps, 2 garrison units, 1 flak unit, 1 pilot, 1 F86 jet fighter unit – 4 points)
(modern 2005 map)

France
Prewar: 35 production centers plus 3 colonial resources, 50 million (including colonial)
Postwar: 20 (15) production centers, plus 1 national airline, 8 shipping units, 44 milllion
Paris 3 (2), Nantes (3), Lille 5, Marseilles 5, Toulouse (0), Rouen (0), Vichy 5, Lyon 5
1944 budget: 30 (level 3 social services – 13 points, repair 1 production center – 12 points, build international airline – 5 points, 1 militia unit (free, represents national police. France is not allowed an army or air force, but is allowed a coast guard of 2 light ship units, which it hasn’t built yet).

Far East and Asia

Japan
Prewar 35 production centers plus 5 points colonial, 75 million
Postwar: 25 (10), 6 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 70 million people
Tokyo (5), Nagoya (5), Kyoto 5, Osaka 5, Hiroshima 5, Fukukoa 5, Niigata 5
Available points: 35 (social spending level 2 – 15 points, rebuild 1 production center – 12 points, reparations to China – 5 points, 2 points to US, 1 point to Australia to pay for cost of LTA protection and bases. Japan is not allowed military forces at this time.
(Japanese home islands plus Kuriles)

China (includes Manchuria, Mongolia, Formosa, Hainan)
Prewar 115 production centers, 540 million
Postwar 16 (99) plus 4 colonial (Taiwan), 30 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, population 494 million tech level 6
Mukden (5), Port Arthur (5), Harbin (4), Ulan Bator 1, Peking 1 (4), Tientsin 1 (4), Lanchow (5), Chengtu 1 (4), Sian 1 (4), Shanghai 1(4), Chungking 5, Kunming 5, Canton 1 (4), Hong Kong 1 (4), Changsha 1(4), Kwieyung 1(4), Nanking (5), Wuhan 1(4), Hangchow 1(4), Nanning 1 (4), Chengchow (5), Tsingtao (5), Tsinan (5), Tai-yuan (5)
Available points: 23 + 34 commerce + 4 colonial = 61 (level 1 social spending 49 points, army with 12 infantry corps, 2 HQ, 4 P47 fighter bombers, 4 pilots –10 points, rebuilding plus Japanese reparations and LTA aid fixed a number of production centers.

Anthrax cleanup has been completed with US help. LTA help has already repaired a number of production centers, but at least now China can actually stand on its own.
(Modern China except Sinkiang and adding in Taiwan and Mongolia)

Tibet (somewhat larger then historical)
Population 2 million, tech level 5
1 oil point, 1 resource point, 1 production center (Lhasa), 1 national airline
has recently upgraded railroads and is near tech level 6 with aid from China and India
level 5 social services, 2 garrison units, 2 mountain infantry brigades

USAE (includes Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, and Laos)
Population 40 million tech level 6
Production Centers: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 1, Pnomh Penh 1, Bangkok 1 plus national airline, 10 shipping units,
1944 budget 20 points (level 3 social spending 12 points, 6 infantry corps 3 points, 1 HQ unit 1 point, 1 F84 fighter bomber unit .5 points, 1 C47 transport unit .25 points, 1 AD1 Skyraider light bomber unit .25 points, 1 parachute brigade .25 points, 1 marine light infantry brigade .25 points, 2 flak groups .5 points, 3 expert pilots .75 points, 1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points, 2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points, 1 mechanized infantry division .5 points.
(modern map of all 5 countries)

Korea (includes Vladivostok)
Population 33 million tech level 6.5
Production centers: Seoul 3 Pusan 1 Pyongyang 1, Vladivostok 2, 10 shipping units, 1 national airline
144 budget level 3 social spending 9 points, 2 infantry division .5 points, 2 mountain infantry brigades .5 points, 1 F86 fighter unit –.5 points, 2 Corsair fighter bomber units .25 points, 1 C47 transport unit .25, 4 expert pilots 1 point, complete repairs with US aid to Vladivostok (and the industry stripped from it and moved elsewhere)

Philippines (just gained independence on schedule)
Population 18 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 2, plus international and national airlines
1944 budget: Level 1 social services 2 points, 1 F86 fighter unit .25, 1 Corsair fighter bomber .25, 2 garrison units .5 points, 1 C47 .25 points, 1 parachute brigade .25 points, 2 expert, 1 average pilot .5 points, 2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points, 2 light infantry divisions .5, 1 amphibious group .5, 2 marine light infantry brigades .5,
(modern Philippines)

British Malaya (modern Malaysia plus Brunei)
population 6.5 million, tech level 4
no production, 1 oil point (Brunei), 5 resources (Malaya),
1944 budget: level 2 social services 1 point, remaining 5 points to Britian

British Burma
population 19.5 million, tech level 3
no production, 1 oil point, 1 resource point (cash crops)
1944 budget: level 1 social spending 2 points

Australasia (Australia, New Zealand, New Caledonia, British and Australian Polynesia, Fiji, British and American Samoa, Papua and Western New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Santa Cruz Islands, New Hebrides Islands, plus UN Mandate of Indonesia)
Population: 14 million plus 30 million Indonesian
Production centers: Sydney 2, Melbourne 2, Adelaide 1, Canberra 1, Brisbane 1, Auckland 1 plus 10 shipping units, national airline, international airline, plus 4 oil points from Indonesia plus 10 colonial points (6 Indonesia, 2 New Guinea, 1 Polynesia, 1 New Caledonia)
1944 Budget: Level 5 social services (Australia/New Zeland) 5 points, Level 1 services Colonial territories 1 point, Level 2 Social services Indonesia 6 points, 1 HQ 1 point, 4 expert pilots 1 point, 1 Vampire fighter unit, 1 Mosquito light bomber unit, 1 Corsair fighter bomber unit – 1 point, 1 C47 transport unit, 1 airborne brigade, 2 marine light infantry brigades – 1 point, 4 garrison units – 1 point, 2 battlecruisers – 1 point, 2 cruisers ..5 points, 10 submarines .5 points, 20 destroyers 1 point, remainder to LTA aid pool
(modern Australia, New Zealand plus territories above)

India (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, plus UN Mandate Afghanistan, Iran)
Population: 350 million (plus another 15 million Iran, 1 million Afghanistan)
Tech level 6
Production centers: Lucknow 2, Madras 2, Nagbar 2, Karachi 2, Delhi 2, Multan 2, Calcutta 2, Bombay 2, Patna 2 plus 15 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 5 colonial points Iran, 1 colonial point Afghanistan, 3 oil points (Iran)
1944 Budget provided level 1 social services for all, plus paid for 6 garrison units, 4 mechanized infantry divisions, 1 HQ, 2 C47 transport units, 2 average pilots, 1 Mosquito bomber unit, 1 light ship unit (20 corvettes)
Anthrax, Rice Blast and radiation cleanup has been completed.

The Middle East and North Africa
Sultanate of Oman (includes UAE territories)
Population 3 million tech level 4
No production, 1 resource point (Oman), 1 resource point (oil points) Trucial territories plus 1 national airline
1944 budget: Level 5 social spending 1.5, 2 garrison units .5 points, 1 light ship unit (20 corvettes), .25 points, 1 airborne brigade .25 points, 1 mechanized division .5 points, remainder donated to aid Western Arabia provide a military force and provide social spending.
(modern maps of UAE and Oman)

Sultanate of Western Arabia (Mecca/Medina/Jiddah area plus coastal strip)
Population 2 million, tech level 2
No production or resources, gets 1 point a year to represent money flow from annual migration to Mecca, plus aid from Oman. 1944 budget: level 1 social spending, 3 garrison units,

Sultanate of Saudi Arabia (Riyadh and eastern Arabia)
Population 2 million. Tech level 4
No production, 1 oil resource point (and a lot more to come)
1944 budget: Level 1 social spending, 1 horse cavalry (cost as light infantry division) corps

Sultanate of Kuwait
Population 200,000 Tech level 5
No production, 1 oil resource point
1944 budget Level 10 social spending, 1 militia unit

Sultanate of Basra-
Map (the Shiite portions of this map (http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/educators/SH%20Activity%203%20Ethnic%20and%20Re.pdf#search='ethnic%20and%20religious%20divisions%20in%20Iraq')
Population 3 million, tech level 4
No production, 1 oil resource
1944 budget Level 3 social spending, 1 garrison unit, 2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry)

Republic of Baghdad (the Sunni portions of the above map)
Population 3 million, tech level 5
Production center: Baghdad 2, 1 oil resource,
1944 budget: level 3 social spending, 1 garrison unit, 2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry)

Republic of Kurdistan (http://stp.ling.uu.se/~kamalk/kurdmap.HTM)
Population 5 million, tech level 5
Production center: Mosul 1, 2 oil resource, capital Amed
1944 budget Level 5 social spending, 6 mountain infantry brigades, 2 infantry corps, 2 garrison units, 1 expert pilot, 1 Corsair fighter bomber unit,

Republic of Syria (includes Lebanon)
Population 2 million, tech level 5
Production centers: Damascus 1, Beruit 1, Aleppo 1, 1 national airline,
1944 spending: social service level 2, 2 garrison units

Republic of Palestine
Population 2 million, tech level 5
Production center: Haifa 1,
1944 budget: level 5 social service, 1 garrison unit

Sultanate of Jordan
Population 500,000, tech level 4
No production, 1 national airline
1944 budget: Level 1 social service, 1 garrison unit

Republic of Turkey
Population: 12 million total,. tech level 6
Production centers: Ankara 2, Smyrnia 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 6 shipping units
1948 budget: 17 points (national effort), level 3 social services 3.6 points, 2 TA183D fighter units, 2 expert pilots (1.5 points), 2 TA152 fighter bomber units, 2 expert pilots (1 point), coast guard with 20 corvettes (.25 points), 8 light infantry divisions (well trained) 4 points, 4 militia units (free) 10.75 points plus 2 shipping units (6 points),

British Crown Colony of Cyprus
Population: 500,000 Turks and 600,000 Greeks tech level 5
Production: none, 1 resource (used for local services)

Republic of Egypt (includes UN mandate of Sudan)
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Alexandria 3, plus 2 points for Suez Canal, plus 1 resource point Sudan,
1944 spending: level 1 social service spending, 2 garrison units, 1 expert pilot, 1 Vampire jet fighter, 1 light ship unit (20 corvettes)

Republic of Algeria
Population 8 million tech level 6
Production centers: Algiers 1, plus 5 oil resource points, plus national and international airline, plus 5 shipping units,
1944 spending: Level 5 social service spending, 2 garrison units, 1 mechanized division, 2 expert pilots, 2 Corsair fighter bomber units, 2 light ship units (40 corvettes), remainder to UN aid pool

Kingdom of Morocco
Population 10 million tech level 6
Production center: Casablanca 1, Tangiers 1, plus national airline, international airline, 1 colonial point Mauritania
1944 budget: level 2 social spending, 4 mountain brigades, 2 mechanized divisions, 2 expert pilots, 2 Corsair fighter bomber units, 2 reserve garrison units, 2 light ship units (10 destroyers, 20 corvettes) remainder to UN aid pool
(modern map of Morocco, Western Sahara and Mauritania)

Sub Saharan Africa
Northwest Africa
(modern names are Senegal, Guinea, Sierra Leon, Mali, formerly French Equatorial Africa and British Sierra Leon, now under UN authority with Britain handling the Mandate)
population: 10 million, tech level 4
production center: Dakar 1, Freetown 1, national airline
1944 budget: Level 1 social services 1 point, 3 garrison units, 1 parachute brigade 1 point, 1 point to Britain

Equatorial Ghana (British / Algerian / Moroccan UN Mandate)
(modern names are Ivory Coast, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Burkina, Niger (western part))
population: 12 million, tech level 3
no production centers, 2 resources (cash crops)
1944 budget: Level 1 social services 1 point, 4 garrison units

British Nigeria (includes eastern Niger, Chad, Cameroon)
Population: 40 million, tech level 5
Production centers: Lagos 2, plus 5 oil resources, 2 other resources (rubber), tourism 8 points
1944 budget: level 3 social services 12 points, 2 garrison units .5 points, plus 4.5 points to Britain

Portuguese Guinea
Population 1 million, tech level 2
No production, 1 resource to Portugal

Liberia (independent nation)
Population: 800,000, tech level 4
Production center: Monrovia 1, 1 national airline
1944 budget: 1 militia unit (national police, free), 1 light infantry division .25 points, level 2 social services 2 points, Civil defense .75 points

Gabon (Gabon and Congo, formerly French)(South African UN Mandate)
Population 1.2 million tech level 2
No production, 2 resources (cash crops, minerals)
1944 budget: level 1 social services, 1 militia unit (national police, free), plus 1 point to South Africa

Belgian Congo (Zaire or Congo, depending on the year of the map plus Burundi, Rwanda)
Population: 13.5 million, tech level 3
No production, 6 resources (cash crops, rubber, minerals, uranium)
1944 budget: all 6 points to Belgium, which has 1 garrison unit in country that it pays for

Portuguese Angola
Population: 4 million, tech level 3
No production, 2 resources (cash crops, minerals), 1 oil resource
1944 budget: level 1 social services .5 points, 2 garrison units .5, other 2 resources to Portugal

South Africa (includes South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Madagascar on modern map)
Population: 22 million, tech level 6.5
Production centers: Pretoria 3, Capetown 4, Salisbury 2, Diego Suarez 1, Durban 1, Port Elizabeth 1, plus national airline, international airline, 20 shipping units
1944 budget: level 3 social services 6.5 points, remainder available for military and UN pool

Portuguese Mozambique
Population: 6 million tech level 3
No production, 3 resources (crops and minerals)
1944 budget: level 1 social services, 1 garrison unit, remaining 2 points to Portugal

British East Africa (Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda,)
Population: 20 million, tech level 4
Production centers: Mombassa 1, Dar as Salaam 1, plus 3 resources (crops, minerals), national airline, tourism 2 points
1944 budget: level 3 social services 6 points, remaining 2 points to Britain

Italian Somalia (part of modern Somalia)
Population: 2 million, tech level 2
No production, no resources

Italian Eritrea (includes Djibouti, Eritrea, British Somalia)
Population 1 million, tech level 3,
No production, 1 resource to Italy

Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) (independent)
Population: 20 million, tech level 5
Production center: Addis Abba 1, plus 1 resource, national airline
1948 budget: 8 light infantry divisions 2 points, Level 1 social services 2 points

North America and Oceania
Canada
Population 13 million tech level 7
Production centers: Toronto 5, Thunder Bay 3, Montreal 2, Winnepeg 2, Vancouver 1, Halifax 1, oil center at Winnipeg, national air line, international airline, plus 10 shipping units, 1 point tourism (currently at cut spending level, 5% growth)
1948 budget level 4 social spending 5.2 points, civil defense 1.3 points, 2 light ships (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5, 1 PB4Y maritime patrol unit 1 point, 2 F86D fighter units 1 point, 2 F100 fighter units .1 points, 1 C54 heavy transport unit point .5 points, 1 C82 transport unit .25 points, 7elite pilots (3.5 points) 2 airborne brigades (elite), 1.5 points, 3 reserve mechanized infantry divisions (well trained) 1 reserve HQ unit, (4 points)

USA (includes Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Marinas islands, Marshal Islands, American Polynesia, Caroline Islands, Gilbert Islands, Line Islands, Okinawa)
Population 146 million tech level 7
Production Centers: Seattle 5, Los Angeles 5 plus 2 oil, Minneapolis 5 Chicago 5, Houston 5 plus 4 oil, New Orleans 10 plus 2 oil, St. Louis 5 (has been repaired), Cleveland 10, Detroit 10, New York 10, Washington/Baltimore 5, Boston 5 (has been repaired), Pittsburgh 10, Norfolk 5, Atlanta 5, Kansas City 5, Denver 5, Portland 5, Philadelphia 10 plus 3 oil, Green Bay 5, Bakersfield 1 plus 2 oil, Tulsa 2 plus 2 oil, Shreveport 2 plus 2 oil, El Paso 1 plus 2 oil, Charleston 2, Mobile 5 plus 1 oil, Dallas 5, Indianapolis 5, Albuquerque 2
Total: 155 production points plus 20 oil plus 25 shipping, national airline, international airline, plus 5 colonial points (Polynesia 1, Hawaii 1, Alaska 2, US Pacific islands 1). Colonial points are from mining, fishing and cash crops
1944 budget: National effort 378 points military spending 150, level 3 social spending 45 points, civil defense 15 points, national reconstruction efforts 120 points, 48 points to LTA reconstruction pool

Mexico
Population: 28 million tech level 6
Production centers: Vera Cruz 1, Monterrey 2, Mexico City 2, Yucatan 3 oil points, 1 national airline
1948 budget: level 3 social spending 9 points, 4 garrison units (poor quality)(free),

Virgin Islands
Population: 50,000 tech level 5
No production, 1 resource (fishing), 1 point tourism
1948 budget: level 5 social spending

Netherlands West Indies (Aruba and Dutch Virgin Islands)
Population: 100,000 tech level 4
No production, 2 oil points, 1 other point (fishing)
1944:budget: 3 points to Netherlands

British Caribbean (Jamaica, Grand Cayman, Windward and Leeward Islands, Bahamas, includes Belize and Bermuda as well).
Population 2 million tech level 4
No production, 1 oil point, 2 other points (fishing and cash crops), 2 points tourism
1948 budget: level 3 social spending 1 point, remaining 4 points to Britain

Cuba
Population 5 million tech level 4
Havana 1 production center, 2 resources (fishing, cash crops)
1948 budget: level 3 social spending 1.5 points, 2 garrison units .5 points, remainder on tourism infrastructure

Central American nations (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras)
Population: 7.2 million, tech level 4
1 production center (Costa Rica), 3 resource points (cash crops)
1948 budget: level 2 social spending 1.5 point, 8 garrison units 2 points

Iceland (includes Greenland)
Population 150,000, tech level 5
No production, 3 resources (fishing)
1948 budget: level 5 social spending 1 point

Western Europe (not including previously posted)
United Kingdom
Population: 50 million, tech level 7
London 5, Birmingham 5, Liverpool 2, Glasgow 3, Newcastle 5, Manchester 5, Conventry 5, Sheffield 5, Hull 3, Leeds 5, Southampton 5 plus 30 shipping units, national airline, international airline, plus 18 colonial points
1944 budget: National effort 148 points

Belgium
Population 7.5 million, tech level 7
Production: Liege 3, Brussels 3, Antwerp 1 plus national airline, 1 international airline, 1 shipping unit, plus 6 colonial points
1944 budget: level 3 social services 3 points, civil defense 1 point, 4 garrison units 1 point, 2 expert pilots 1 point, 1 F84 jet fighter bomber unit .5 points, 1 C47 unit .25 points, 1 elite airborne brigade 1 point, 2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points, remainder spent on improvements in Belgian Congo

Netherlands
Population 10 million, tech level 7
Production: Rotterdam 3, Amsterdam 3, plus 1 national airline, 5 shipping units, 3 colonial points
1948budget: 2 reserve garrison units .5 points, 2 mechanized divisions 1 point, level 4 social spending 4 points, 2 coastal patrol groups .5 points, 2 destroyer groups, 2 escort cruisers 1 point, 1 F100 fighter wing, 1 F86D all weather fighter wing, 2 expert fighters (1.5 points), remainder spent on upgrades to tourism infrastructure Dutch Caribbean and Netherlands,

Spain (includes Canary Islands)
Population: 28 million, tech level 6.5
Production: Madrid 3, Bilboa 2, Cartegena 1, Cadez 1, national airline, 1 international airline,
1948 budget: level 3 social spending 9 points, 1 Corsair fighter bomber unit .25 points, 1 C47 transport unit .25 points, 2 pilots expert .5 points, 4 garrison units 1 point, 2 mechanized divisions 1 point, 2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points, 1 airborne brigade .25 points, 1 mountain brigade .25 points plus 5 points spent on transportation improvements


Portugal (includes Azores, East Timor, Portuguese Indian enclave of Goa)
Population: 8.5 million people, tech level 6
Production: Lisbon 1 point, plus 1 national airline, 4 shipping units, 6 colonial points
1944 budget: 1 garrison unit .5 points, light cruiser .25 points, 5 destroyers .25 points, 20 corvettes .25 points, 2 pilots .5 points, 1 Corsair fighter bomber .25 points, 1 C47 unit .25 points, level 3 social spending 2.5 points, remainder to LTA pool

Burgundy (Alsace, Lorraine and Luxembourg)
population 4 million, tech level 7
production centers: Metz 2, Strasbourg 2, Luxembourg 2, tourism 1,
1948 budget Level 4 social services 1.6 points, 6 mechanized divisions (3 points), 3 garrison (reserve) units 1.5 points, 1 F100 fighter wing, 1 F86D fighter wing, 2 expert pilots (1.5 points) 1 HQ unit (1 point), remainder (4 points) to UN World Bank

Ireland
Population: 3 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Dublin 1, Belfast 1, national airline, tourist income 1
1948 budget: level 5 social spending 1.5 points, 1 escort group .25 points, 1 infantry division .25, remainder on rural electrification

Bulgaria
Population 7 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Sofia 3, plus national airline, 2 shipping unit
1944 budget: Level 3 social spending 2 points, 2 garrison units (in Rumania) 1 point, 2 mechanized divisions 1 point, 4 alpine brigades (in Yugoslavia) 1 point, 1 P51 fighter bomber unit, 1 C47 transport unit, 2 pilots (expert) 1 point

Italy (includes Libya, Tunisia, Eritrea, Italian Somalia, Corsica)
Population 50 million, tech level. 6.5
Production centers: Milan 4, Rome 3, Genoa 3, Turin 2, Venice 1, Naples 1, plus 20 shipping units, national airline, international airline, Libya 5 oil points, Tunisia 2 resource points, Sardinia / Corsica 2 points, Eritrea 1 point
1944 budget: level 3 social spending 15 points, military forces 33 points

Scandic Union (Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Estonia, Schleswig, Holstein, including Kiel and the Kiel canal)
(useful map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Germany_Laender_Schleswig-Holstein.png)
population: 19 million, tech level 6.5
production centers: Kiel 3, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, plus national airline, international airline, 30 shipping units,
1944 budget: 67 points, level 3 social spending – 6 points, military budget 30 points, remainder used to rebuild Kiel along with salvage

Kingdom of Greece
population 9 million, tech level 6
production centers: Athens 1, Adrianopole 1, Istanbul 1 plus 14 shipping units, 1 national airline
1948 budget: 6 Infantry corps (3 points), 2 light ships (10 Destroyers, 40 corvettes).5, social services level 3 3 points, 2 expert pilots, 2 Mig 15 fighters (2 points), 1 airborne brigade (well trained) , 1 C47, 1 pilot, (2 points), plus 3 coastal patrol groups under construction (available 1949)

South America
FNS (Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Peru, plus Easter Island, Falklands Islands)
Population: 30 million, tech level 6
Production Centers: Buenos Aires 5, Cordoba 2, Santiago 2, Montevideo 1, La Plaz 1
National airline, 30 shipping units,
1944 budget: 43 points, level 3 social spending 9 points, remainder available for military and other spending

Brazil
Population: 32 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Sao Paulo 3, Recife 1, Rio de Janerio 1, national airline, international airline, 6 shipping units
1948 budget: 15 points, level 3 social spending 9 points, 4 reserve garrison units – 2 points, 2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points, 2 Fury fighter bombers .5 points, 1 C47 transport unit .25 points, 3 expert pilots .75 points, 1 parachute brigade .25 points, 3 infantry divisions .5 points, 1 point to UN relief efforts, remainder on tourist industry infrastructure

Gran Colombia (Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, Ecuador, Surinam, Guyana, French Guyana, Martinique, Guadeloupe)
Population: 14 million, tech level 6.5
Production centers: Panama 5, Cartegena 2, Mariacoba 2, Caracas 2, Bogota 3, plus 6 points from Panama Canal, 6 oil points from Venezuela, 2 points from Ecuador (cash crops and minerals), 1 point from Surinam (minerals), 1 point from Guyana (cash crops),
1944 budget: 30 points + 14 more from national effort. Level 5 social spending 7 points, remainder available for military and relief efforts (37 points)

Haiti
Population: 3 million, tech level 3
No production, 1 resource (cash crops)
1948 budget: 1 garrison unit (poor quality) .25 points, remainder in social spending

Dominican Republic
Population: 500,000, tech level 4
1 production center
1944 budget: 1 garrison unit (poor quality) .25 points, remainder in social spending

The cost of military units can be found here
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9108039&postcount=1

However, in addition to buying guns, governments can also purchase other things.

Social service spending provides education and a social safety net and is useful in preventing rebellion and subversion.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare).
1 point per 10 million people gives you basic schools and clinics
2 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance,
3 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled
5 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
10 points per 10 million people gives you all of the above plus free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working. Acts on economy the same as National Effort (as far as growth is concerned)

You can also increase your commerce by purchasing merchant shipping and airlines.

1 Shipping unit (500,000 tons of shipping) costs 3 points, takes 1 year to complete.

National airlines costs 5 points (for twin engined aircraft and includes the pilot)

International airlines costs 6 points (for four engined aircraft and pilot)

You may also spend points to increase your domestic productivity.

Rural electrication, available at tech level 6, costs 1 point for every 10 million people and boosts your economy by 10% permanently. This is a 2 year project and the points must be spent each year. This is a revolutionary change and brings the rural and urban portions of your society closer together. Builds national cohesion in addition to its economic benefits.

You may improve your transportation infrastructure (increased rail links, or highways etc) by spending 2 points per 10 million people for three years. This will automatically move an area that is tech level 2 or 3 to tech level 4. There will be social costs to this in some cases. This will increase your strategic moves available during wartime, and help accelerate your move up the tech level ladder as well.

Industrial centers may be built (for 24 points) or repaired (for 12 points). In addition, 2 damaged industrial centers can be combined (reflects salvage efforts) to form 1 undamaged industrial center.

At tech level 7 and 8, additional investment improves the efficiency of air travel and shipping (see above)

Tourism
You may create tourist income as well. This requires the investment of 4 points for a jet capable airport, or 4 points for a cruiser ship terminal. You may build multiple airports and terminals, but the maximum bonus is 1 point for every 10 million in population you have (so the US for example could potentially get 14 points this way for example). The maximum is because you need hotel space as well as facilities for passenger. You always earn at least 1 point for tourism for an air terminal, and 1 point for a cruise ship terminal. Its just that additional points require a large service industry. The total maximum tourist income allowed however is 20 points (to avoid weird things like China or India earning 50 points a year, which is way too high)

tourism is halved if you are having civil strife, and no tourism occurs if your country is at war. If your country gets the Olympics, you must have an air terminal built to be selected by the IOC. Getting the Olympics is worth a 5 point economic bonus that year.

Intelligence Agencies
Funding does not ensure a competent or effective intelligence agencies. It does help though. Base cost is 10 points and creates a 5,000 person organization able to analyze data, do some spying and code breaking and able to investigate dangerous threats to the government (kind of a combination of the US FBI and CIA or KGB in the real world). To maintain an intelligence agency costs 5 points a year (assume that everyone who has one already has been funding it for the course of the game, and has done so for 1947... next year though, you will have to budget for it)

The following nations already have an intelligence organization and do not need to create one (because they have had one all RP, or recently spent money to create on)

Great Britian
USA
Russia
France
Germany
South Africa
Portugal
China
Korea
India (FAS)
Argentina

Having an intelligence agency allows you to occasionally get secret information from the Referee (me) on what is going on in the world, and effectiveness varies widely. Most intelligence agencies are good at knowing what their neighbors can do or are planning, and effectiveness decreases the further away they are looking. Being in the UN helps though.

Spy satellites, strategic recon aircraft, electronic warfare and listining ships etc cost extra. 1 Point gives you trawlers for example to monitor electronic communications at sea and off other peoples coasts. Strategic recon aircraft require that you actually have a medium or heavy jet bomber unit able to fly high enough not to be intercepted. Satellites aren't available yet, and won't be for a while, and code breaking is possible, but you cannot break the codes of a nation that is higher tech then you are.

increasing build points
building factories 36 points in peacetime, takes 12 months (or longer if you have to spread the point cost out)
during national effort, reduced to 24 points, during wartime, reduced to 12 points.

However, factories built during wartime and during national efforts in a nation that has a democratic or democratic socialist government type then must spend 6 points or 3 points to be brought up to reasonable safety standards and peacetime levels of efficiency (waste is allowed during urgent periods, less tolerable during normal times). Once completed, a factory adds 6 build points a year.

Alright, now I'm confused, and I thought I understood this pretty well. The numbers don't seem quite right to me, either - if 36 points buys one production point in peacetime, then 18 points (not 24) should buy one production point during national effort, or so it seems to me.

Then there's the 6 build points from one factory and the 6 or 3 for safety standards. I don't quite get that. Do we really have to keep track of the factories we've built during war or national efforts, and then upgrade them later?

For military (and commercial) units, what are the maintenance costs? Also, what are the costs of reserve units?

Finally, you might want to clarify the education example a little, to better communicate that it basically takes two production points per ten million people to advance a tech level. That was confusing to me.

China's Grand Expansion Plan I (GEP I) 1932 - 1937.

I should have the following finished by 1926 and it should be my entire standing army. I will not expand my military beyond 14 garrisons, 6 fighters, and 5 HQ's as it will be enough for a peace-time defense force of such a large nation.

14 garrisons
6 fighters
3 HQ's
3 Factories

1932: (Start New Deal program) 33 points a year (26 original points plus 6 from the 3 new factories built in 1926) times 2 for 66 points total due to New Deal program.

2 HQ's (12 points)
5 Factories (48 points)
4 points in reserve

1933:

5 Factories (60 points)
22 points towards modernization of the newly built factories (not sure how to do this).
0 points in reserve.

1934:

6 Factories (72 points)
20 points towards modernization efforts for the factories.
Research "4 Engined Bombers" (12 points, should give China 1936's level bomber aircraft)

1935:

6 Factories (72 points)
26 points for factory modernization.
Research "Advanced Fighters" (12 points, should give China 1936's level fighter aircraft)
Research "Advanced Radar" (12 points)

1936:

9 Factories (96 points)
36 points for factory modernization.

1937:

12 Factories (120 points)
36 points for factory modernization.

----------------------------
Important Note:

Any surplus points left over from the first GEP-I are to go into education programs.

----------------------------

Please let me know whats up with "Factory Modernization Under Peace-time" and I'd like help in figuring out exactly how much more points I may need, or if I will have a surplus of points after the posts I made above.

My standing army will be 14 garrisons, 5 HQ's, and 6 fighter units (as well as my interned Navy) and I won't expand my military any further unless World War 3 happens.

-----------------------------

Hopefully I got all this right. :)

Alright, now I'm confused, and I thought I understood this pretty well. The numbers don't seem quite right to me, either - if 36 points buys one production point in peacetime, then 18 points (not 24) should buy one production point during national effort, or so it seems to me.

Then there's the 6 build points from one factory and the 6 or 3 for safety standards. I don't quite get that. Do we really have to keep track of the factories we've built during war or national efforts, and then upgrade them later?

Finally, you might want to clarify the education example a little, to better communicate that it basically takes two production points per ten million people to advance a tech level. That was confusing to me.

your right, it is supposed to be 18.. I will fix it. Raising a tech level is partly improved education, and partly commercial and industrial research and development and partly improved infrastructure.. Which is why two cost points and the other takes time.

We can drop the 6 and 3 for playability sake. A good idea might also be a maximum of 1 production point per million people (after all, productivity goes only so far)

GB, I am somewhat confuse, in the list for this thread, its states I am below tech four or even less, and now this is post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9912856&postcount=628)for 1929, it states I am at tech five, so which one do I go by?

GB, I am somewhat confuse, in the list for this thread, its states I am below tech four or even less, and now this is post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9912856&postcount=628)for 1929, it states I am at tech five, so which one do I go by?

fixed, you are tech level 5

your right, it is supposed to be 18
Whew!

I was concerned I'd have to rewrite my entire economy.

We can drop the 6 and 3 for playability sake. A good idea might also be a maximum of 1 production point per million people (after all, productivity goes only so far)
I'm still not entirely sure what this means, unfortunately. You're proposing an upper limit to a nation's industry based on its population? Hm. I'd come off pretty well in that . . .

Is my economic plan for 1932 - 1937 kosher or do I have to revise it? :confused:

Vas... thats a rediculous amount of dead people... ie most of my population.

Vas... thats a rediculous amount of dead people... ie most of my population.

that is your population, not your death toll

I'm still not entirely sure what this means, unfortunately. You're proposing an upper limit to a nation's industry based on its population? Hm. I'd come off pretty well in that . . .

Yes, only so many people after all can actually be workers, miners etc

Middle Eastern Union will be doing a five year plan to impove their nation, therefore giving a me 20 points a year...think I..

The Year of 1927 turn one
The Ottomans will send be sending three points to Japan to bulid my carriers and three points to Germany to build my new fleet. The remaining points goes as the following

four points for building two fighter units (Competed by 1929)
three points for building one factories( competed by 1931)
two points into education of the people
six points for two shipping units

The Year of 1928 turn two
Ottomans will be still sending points( three each) to Japan and Germany for the ships
eight points for building one factories( competed by 1932)
two points into education of the people
four points for two Pilots (competed by 1930)

The Year of 1929 turn three
Ottomans will be still sending points(three each) to Japan and Germany for the ships
eight points for building one factory(competed by 1932)
six points for 2 Field artillery (competed by 1933)
one point to upgrade one inf to mech
two points for a fighter unit

The Year of 1930 turn four
Ottomans will be still sending points(three each) to Japan and Germany for the ships(which by compete by 1934)
eight points for building six factory(competed by 1932)
four points into education of the people
two points into building of new railroads and roads(compete by 1933)
three points for domestic airlines
2 points for a pilot

The Year of 1931 Turn Five
Ottomans will be still sending points(three each) to Japan and Germany for the ships(which by compete by 1934)

10 points for one factory
6 points for shipping units(two units)
five points for upgrade five inf to mech( so all my remain inf units to mech)

The Year of 1932 Turn Six, the MEU govt ends the five year plan(and goes back to 17 points a year..

10 points for one factories( compete by 1935)
one armored corps for six points( will be compete by 1936)
one Flak artillery for two points(will be compete by 1936)
Coast artillery for 3 points( compete by 1934)
Two points for the education

that is your population, not your death toll
Oh, but that made me laugh . . .

The US doesn't believe in 5 year plans....

US Builds 1932
The US retains its cut in national spending and gets 62 points
(16 shipping units - 8 points plus domestic production 54 points)

1 tech level 6 submarine unit (10 fleet submarines) – 4 points
upgrade 4 fighter units from P26 to P36 – 8 points
create domestic airline industry -- 5 points (1 pilot, 1 DC2)
create international airline industry - 5 points (1 pilot, 1 DC2)
upgrade 2 carrier torpedo bombers to TBD – 4 points
upgrade 3 carrier dive bombers to Vindicator – 6 points
upgrade 5 carrier fighter planes to Brewster Buffalos – 10 points
build 1 tech level 6 light ship (10 destroyers) – 8 points
upgrade 1 Army bomber unit from A12 Strike to B10 – 3 points
upgrade 3 flak units (East Coast) from 3 inch guns to 90 mm guns – 9 points

at end of year, 1 tech level 6 (modernized) destroyer unit and 1 tech level 6 (modernized) submarine unit will be laid up in reserve, and 1 tech level 5 destroyer unit in reserve will be scrapped.

The aircraft that are replaced are scrapped (they were all too old to be much use anymore in any case)

The US will have a growth rate of 5%, giving it 6 more production points next year. Which will be give the US 60 points of domestic production plus 8 points from merchant marine plus 2 points for airline industry for 70 points.

Yugoslavia Peacetime spending:(i guess from 1927 on)

1926 Builds:(still at war level production)
2xMotorized to Mech conversions-4 points
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry(put 9 points in industry)

Points used: 15 Reserve:0

1927 Builds:(Changed to peacetime production)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry cont.(6 more points added bringing total to 15 of 36)

Points used: 8 Reserve: 0

1928 Builds:(peacetime)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(6 more points added bringing total to 21 of 36)

Points used: 8 Reserve: 0

1929 Builds:
1xpilot(2 points)
1xfighter[IK-2](2 points)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(2 more points added bringing total to 23 of 36)

Points used:8 Reserves:0

1930:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry cont.(6 points put down on, bringing total to 29 of 36)

Points used:8 Reserves:0

1931:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(6 points put down on, bringing total to 35 of 36)
Points used:8 Reserves:0

1932:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(1 point put down on, finishing construction finally)
1xFortification on Italian border(2 points)
1xShipping unit[for merchant marines](3 points)

Points used:8 Reserve:0

Just for reference 1929 military:
2x4 point Reserve infantry divisions
1x5 point Alpine Corps
1x5 point Infantry Corps
2x7 point Mech Corps
1x HQ unit
1xfighter[IK-2](will be finished by 1930)
1xpilot(will be finished by 1930)
1x Light ship in Split

Upgrading your economy, industrial capacity and infra structure

increasing build points
building factories 36 points in peacetime, takes 12 months (or longer if you have to spread the point cost out)
during national effort, reduced to 18 points, during wartime, reduced to 12 points.

Once completed, a factory adds 6 build points a year.

Merchant marine (international trade) (see above post for costs) adds 3 build points a year (and is the principal reason that Norway, Britian and Greece have as many as they do).

So, is this right? If I invest thirty-six points in peacetime, I get an additional six points to spend next year?

I kinda thought it was only one, but I guess it makes sense - that's the way it worked during the war, and it still takes awhile to pay off the investment.

Damn, but that'd make my life easier.

I'm basically in favor of a productivity cap based on population (and perhaps resources, but that might needlessly complicate things). I would assume that it would apply to Normal Spending levels - i.e., that the US, for instance, would top out (currently) at 125 production points, but if Roosevelt started a New Deal, he could spend 250, or if he slashed spending the most he could get access to would be 62.

It gives an advantage to the bigger countries, though. But at least there'd always come a point when one could just kick back and stop scrambling to industralize . . .

If I've misinterpreted this, let me know.

So, is this right? If I invest thirty-six points in peacetime, I get an additional six points to spend next year?

I kinda thought it was only one, but I guess it makes sense - that's the way it worked during the war, and it still takes awhile to pay off the investment..

oops, no it should be 2 at regular spending, 4 at national effort, and 6 during wartime

oops, no it should be 2 at regular spending, 4 at national effort, and 6 during wartime
Ah. That makes sense.

Still, I come out better than I was expecting.

Alright ive got an idea. SInce I really dont understand this Ill either TG Vas or GB what I want for my nation to do and then you can post it to be reasonable. Kosher?

Upgrading your economy, industrial capacity and infra structure
Merchant marine (international trade) (see above post for costs) adds 1 build points a year for every 1 million tons of shipping (2 shipping units) and is the principal reason that Norway, Britian and Greece have as many points as they do.

Airlines - requires a pilot unit and a 3 point air transport unit for a national airline, and 4 points for international / intercontinental airlines. Represents not really so much a single airline, as government subsidies, building the airports, and all that goes with it. Provides 1 build point year if a national airline, and 1 build point a year for international airline.
There are no costs indicated for building shipping units. Shipping units are also indicated in the military costs post as providing only .2 production points each, as opposed to .5. I assume .5 is correct, but the discrepancy should be addressed.

Also, with regard to airlines, the language is a little unclear. If I buy 10 civilian air transports, for two domestic airlines (my country is huge) and eight international air services (the world is huge), the sensible reading of the above quote is that I'd only get a maximum of 2 production points out of that, but it could as well be interpreted as saying I'd get 10. Maybe airlines should give the .2 production points each - that way you'd receive less benefits from air transport than from maritime (which at this tech level is realistic), but it would still be more open-ended.

I would assume that the upper limit of 15 production points derived from international trade will change with the world economy, tending to increase as economies expand, but collapsing if we get a Depression.

Alright ive got an idea. SInce I really dont understand this Ill either TG Vas or GB what I want for my nation to do and then you can post it to be reasonable. Kosher?
Wait.

Once we've hammered out the system, it'll be easier to figure out. It'll probably take another week at this pace though. In the meantime, I for one have to figure out my own country's economy and GB has to figure out how it works for the world.

After this is done, by all means use your idea.

Also, we need to have maintenance costs established, and there are some discrepancies between this thread's listed costs and the last one we were using for the Second Great War.

The Russians, for instance, were able to buy armored cavalry for 4 points instead of 6. I need an answer on that in order finalize the Red Army orbat for 1932, and also on the maintentance costs.

FINAL UK BUILD REVISION (I promise!)

Expenditure:

1926 UK (July, August, September-October, November-December turns):
84 points (Still on war economy):

2 points to finish strategic bombing research
3 points to finish 1 HQ
6 points to finish 3 UK 8 point mechanized corps
9 points to finish 3 UK bomber units
2 points to build 1 fighter unit
30 points to start National Health Service
10 points to build 2 shipping units
10 points: Tech 6 Battleship attack 4, protection 7, speed 4, range 5 Cost 10 build time 4 years (14 inch guns)
2 points to upgrade reserve infantry corps into motorised.

1927 UK (back to standard production, 2% growth):
42 points:

14 points to improve NHS/state education
2 points to upgrade 1 bomber unit from Heyfords to Hampdens and 1 fighter from Demons to Hurricanes.
8 points 2x Tech 6 submarine units (20 submarines total), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5, 4 points, 1 year
Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, Cost 8, build time 3 years (80 – 100 aircraft)
Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years

1928 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth):
21 points (inc 2% growth from last year):

Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
3 points for 1 bomber unit (Hampdens)
2 points for 1 pilot unit
9 points of further investment in NHS/state education

1929 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
22 points (inc 5% growth)

7 points into NHS/state education
Tech 6 Super battleship attack 6, protection 8, speed 5, range 5, Cost 15 build time 6 years (18 inch guns)

1930 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
23 points (inc. 5% growth)

3xFlak artillery attack strength 1, defense strength 3 (doubled against aircraft), cost 2 points, 2 turns.

2xCoast artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 0 Defense 5,

2xFortifications (permanent, doubles defense strength all defending units, destroyed if captured) 2 points, 2 turns

7 points into NHS/education

1931 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
24 points (inc 5% growth)

1xair transports 4 points (single engined)
1xpilots 2 points
1xTech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (can trade) Cost 12 build time 5 years (16 inch guns)
6 points NHS/education

1932 builds (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
26 points (inc 5% growth)

4 points NHS/education
6 points for 2 Field artillery units
6 points for 3 pilot units
10 points to improve infrastructure (roads and railways)

At the end a strong navy (I will scrap older vessels) and a streamlined and professional army and a cutting edge RAF will emerge alongside the best free healthcare system in the world and a damned good education establishment topped off with a decent internal road and rail network. I hope this will garner some kind of usefullness in the future.

The following states will reduce to half economy immediately:
British Burma 3 (oil) (LTA)
British Malaya 4 (rubber)(LTA)
British Borneo 2 (oil) (LTA)
British East Africa 3 (rubber) (LTA)
British West Africa 3 (oil, rubber)(LTA)
British Egypt 3 (LTA)

Their points will go into improving local infrastructure, education and healthcare provision. 2 infantry units will be built in each location to act as a native garrison.

Commonwealth NPC's:

All to go onto standard economy immediately and then down to half economy for the next 4 years:
British Ireland 2 (LTA): 2 infantry corps, 1 fighter unit, 1 mech unit
Canada 10 (LTA, Pan America): 2 mech units, 1 fighter unit, 1 bomber unit, 2 Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years , 1 HQ unit,
New Zealand 2 (LTA): 1 infantry corps, 1 fighter unit, 1 mech unit

The intention is to become less reliant on the British military and develop forces that can replace British garrisons as soon as possible.

GB, you deleted all the information on Tech Levels. Why'd you do that? I need that, too.

I still need information on reserves and maintenance costs.

Also research possibilities, communications infrastructure, etc.

FINAL UK BUILD REVISION (I promise!)
Snip.
People are jumping the gun on posting their "final builds" before the system is finished, by the way.

And your growth rates are too high. Remember you have a 1% penalty for each full year of War Footing - meaning that if you stay on War Footing for all of 1926, you have a 1% penalty for '27, '28, and '29.

The way growth rates work could stand to be clarified, too. I assume it applies to total points, rather than to factories (and there's a big difference). And the question of how to handle partial points (like 2.4) needs to be satisfactorily addressed.

For partials, I'd recommend rounding down. It kind of sucks, but it's more playable than keeping track and it's more realistic than just rounding - and there are less possibilities of gaming the system that way.

Normal Spending

1927
5 points
- 1 point Educational Improvement *9 years left*
- 3 points Tech 5 Shipping Unit
- 1 point Pilot (Transport) *1 point left*

1928
5 points
- 1 point Educational Improvment *8 years left*
- 1 point Pilot (Transport)
- 3 point Air Transport

1929
6 points
- 1 point Educational Improvement *7 years left*
- 3 points Tech 5 Shipping Unit

1930
7 points
- 1 point Educational Improvement *6 years left*
- 3 points to Japan for Tech 6 Fleet Carrier *5 points left*
- 3 point Shipping Unit

1931
7 points
- 1 point Educational Improvement *5 years left*
- 3 points to Japan for Tech 6 Fleet Carrier *2 points left*
- 2 points Carrier Fighters/Bombers
- 1 point Pilot (Carrier) *1 point left*

1932
7 points
- 1 point Educational Improvement *4 years left*
- 2 points to Japan for Tech 6 Fleet Carrier
- 1 point Pilot (Carrier)
- 3 points Shipping Unit

GB, you deleted all the information on Tech Levels. Why'd you do that? I need that, too.

I still need information on reserves and maintenance costs.

Also research possibilities, communications infrastructure, etc.

I haven't finished everything yet... I eventually had to go to bed last night (chuckle)

There are no costs indicated for building shipping units. Shipping units are also indicated in the military costs post as providing only .2 production points each, as opposed to .5. I assume .5 is correct, but the discrepancy should be addressed.

Also, with regard to airlines, the language is a little unclear. If I buy 10 civilian air transports, for two domestic airlines (my country is huge) and eight international air services (the world is huge), the sensible reading of the above quote is that I'd only get a maximum of 2 production points out of that, but it could as well be interpreted as saying I'd get 10. Maybe airlines should give the .2 production points each - that way you'd receive less benefits from air transport than from maritime (which at this tech level is realistic), but it would still be more open-ended.

I would assume that the upper limit of 15 production points derived from international trade will change with the world economy, tending to increase as economies expand, but collapsing if we get a Depression.

Airlines... its doesn't matter how many transports and pilots you buy, the maximum benefit is 1 point for domestic airline, and 1 point for international airline. It really represents improved communications and not cargo lift.

Fixed the shipping rules (on the combat forces price list). Basically, if for some reason you have 30 shipping units (15 million tons of shipping, less than the British have for example), the most you can get is 15 points. If you have more (and the British had closer to 40 million tons of shipping at the start of World War II historically) you simply have a lot of slack that you can afford to lose and still keep the needed imports coming in.

Buy a domestic and international airline (which between the cost of the pilots and the aircraft will run you 11 points) and you get 2 points a year as well, but as the maximum for trade is 15, you have some extra shipping available that you can lose (if its attacked by submarines for example) without suffering serious damage to your economy.

Using the US as an example, if the US has a population of 125 million, the maximum size of its domestic economy is 125 points a year (peacetime). If the US then came up with 26 shipping units (and it already has 16, which are already factored in), plus a domestic and international airline industry, it would have a maximum of 15 more points, or a total of 140 in all.

In other words, the US hasn't actually reached its full economic potential yet.

GB, Chatzy maybe in order.

Tech 6 Shipping unit (represents 500,000 tons of shipping). Used as a place holder for attacks directed at shipping. Can be converted into a transport unit.

Except this still doesn't say how much it costs to build one.

Thanks for answering my other questions, though.

Still need answers on maintenance.

Except this still doesn't say how much it costs to build one.

Thanks for answering my other questions, though.

Still need answers on maintenance.

fixed shipping costs, still pondering maintenance... will post later on on that one

1927 [National Effort, 20 points]
1/3x Factory (18 points)
Education (1 point, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)

1928 [National Effort, 20 points]
1/3x Factory (18 points)
Education (1 point, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)

1929 [National Effort, 20 points]
1/3x Factory (18 points, completed)
Education (1 point, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)

1930 [National Effort, 20 points]
1x Fighter Unit (2 points)
1x Naval Air Unit (4 points)
1x Bomber Unit (3 points)
4x Pilot Unit (8 points)
Education (1 points, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)

1931 [National Effort, 20 points]
1x Light Ship (5x Tech 5 Light Cruisers, 5 points, to be completed 1932)
1x Light Ship (10x Destroyers, 8 points, to be completed 1932)
Education (1 point, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)

1932 [National Effort, 20 points]
1x Capital Ship (2x Tech 5 Light Carriers, 14 points)
Education (1 point, for tech advancement)
General Research (1 point, for tech advancement)
1x Marine Unit (to replace I Mechanized Corp upon completion, 4 points)


I'm fairly sure I've messed something up, so please correct me if anything is wrong.

Preliminary Builds:

1927
2 Points to finish upgrading ground forces to motorized (not quite sure how far this got before the war ended)
2 Point fixing up the nation

1928
1 Points Education
2 Points to fix-up nation / expand internal development (railroads, highways and the like)

1929
Cut Spending to 3 Points
1 Point to Education
1 Point to fix-up nation / expand internal development (railroads, highways and the like)
1 Held in reserve

1930
Cut Spending to 2 Points
1 Point to Education
1 Held in reserve

1931
1 Point to Education
1 Held in reserve

1932
1 Point to Education
1 Held in reserve

Any Objections?

I was wondering about the National Effort/Five Year Plan thing. How long would it be before maintaining such an economic state become detrimental to the nation? I know it reduces growth drastically, but does it actually negatively affect one's country?

I ask because I've been contemplating going to a National Effort-type economy for an extended period time (perhaps or fifteen years) in order to put South Africa on the map, so to speak, as an industrial and economic power, though obviously not at the top of the list.

Revised on November 19, 2005

15 points per turn, +2 for colonies.

1927 (National Effort--34 points)
18x points for factory
2x points for fleet carrier
7x points for fortifications (7 different fortifications, located on the border, with one going to Tripoli if not needed--finished 1928)
4x points for 4 infantry corps (finished 1928)
2x points for mechanized corps

research: basic science and medical (2/25 needed)

1928 (National Effort--38)
18x points for factory
4x points for 4 infantry corps (to go in reserve)
7x points for 7 fortifications
2x points for fleet carrier
2x points for mechanized corps
2x points for pilot
3x points for domestic airlines
research: basic science and medical (3/25 needed)

1929 (National Effort--42 + 1 from one airline)
18x points for factory
4x points for fleet carrier (finished at end of turn)
4x points for field artillery
3x points for Alpine unit
6x points for three pilots
4x points for international airlines
4x points for fleet carrier (new carrier)
research: basic science and medical (5/25 needed)

1930 (National Effort --46 + 2 from two airlines)
18x points for factory
4x points for two pilots
4x points for 4 engined bomber
4x points for fleet carrier (new carrier)
2x points for fleet carrier (continued)
12x points for 4 shipping units
research: basic science and medical (7/25 needed)

1931 (National Effort--50 points + 4 points from 2 airlines and two shipping points)
18x points for factory
4x points for upgrading two battleships
2x points for carrier aircraft
2x points for fleet carrier (finished)
2x points for fleet carrier (continued)
12x points for 4 shipping units
2x points for pilot
9x points for 3 garrison units
research: basic science and medical (9/25 needed)

1932 (National Effort--54 + 6 points from 2 airlines and 4 shipping points)
36x points for 2 factories
4x points for fleet carrier (finished)
18x points for 6 shipping units
research: basic science and medical (14/25 needed)

1933 (National Effort--62 + 9 points from 2 airlines and 7 shipping points)
36x points for 2 factories
30x points for 10 shipping units
research: basic science and medical (23/25 needed)

1934 (National Effort--68 + 14 points from 2 airlines and 12 shipping points)
36x points for 2 factories (maxing out my factory capability)
45x points for 15 shipping units (maxing out my shipping capability, and 14 extra shipping units in reserve)
research: basic science and medical (completed)
research: antibiotics, analog computers (3/25 needed)


So by 1935 I am maxed out; 38 factory points, 15 points from 2 airlines and 13 shipping points (13 million tons). I have 14 shipping units in reserve (7 million tons), so I can take some shipping losses in wartime.

1935 (National Effort--76 + 15 points from 2 airlines and 13 shipping)
28x points for starting 7 heavy cruisers
24x points for 3 light ships (30x destroyers total)
12x points for 3 submarine units (30x subs total)
8x points for upgrading 8 infantry corps to motorized corps
research: antibiotics, analog computers (completed)
research: direct dial long distance telephone, oil to rubber (2/24 needed)

1936 (National Effort--76 + 15 points from 2 airlines and 13 shipping)
21x points to finish 7 heavy cruisers
18 points held in reserve for (possible) foriegn aid
research: direct dial long distance telephone, oil to rubber (completed)
8 points for education and slack
24x points for 8 shipping units (to be given to India)

1937 (National Effort--76 + 15 points from 2 airlines and 13 shipping)
60 points held in reserve for (possible) foriegn aid
research: improved railroad locomotives steam to diesel, pressurized aircraft (completed)
8 points for education and slack

1938 (Normal Spending--38 + 15 points from 2 airlines and 13 shipping)
8 points for education and slack
45 points to researching something

Basically, it shall continue like that until 1946, when Italy shall reach tech level 7 (unless declared there by the mods)

UPDATED

EDIT: Begining to post builds up.

1927-Beginning of "Reconstruction"[a.k.a National Effort] as it is termed in France

56 points+1 for French West Africa

57 points total

Two factories-36 points
Four marine shipping counters (2 million tons)-12 points
Finish RADAR research-3 points
Fighter Unit (D.510, single-engined)-3 points
Transport plane-3 points

1928-Year Two of Reconstruction

56+8 for two factories+2 for shipping+1 for Domestic Airline+1 for FWA

64 points total (Normal Spending Total: 36)

Two factories-36 points
Four marine shipping counters (2 million tons)-12 points
Two pilots-12 points
Transport plane-3 points
Spare Industry-3 point

[b]1929-Year Three of Reconstruction

64+8 for two new factories+2 for shipping

72 points total (Normal Spending: 38)

Two factories-36 points
Three mechanized corps-12 points
Alpine Corp-3 points
Two marine shipping counters-10 points
10 destroyers-8 points
3 point-spare

1930-Year Three of Reconstruction

72+8 for two new factories+1 for shipping

81 total (Normal Spending: 41)

Two factories-36 points
Three motorised corps-9 points
HQ Unit-6 points
Two pilots-12 points
Fighter unit (D510, single engine-3 points)
Two flak artillery-4 points
Coast Artillery-3 points
Spare-4 points

1931-Year Four of Reconstruction

81+8 for two new factories

89 (Normal Spending: 42)


Fighter Unit (D.510, single engine)-3 points
Pilot-6 points
Single-Engine Dive Bomber-3 points
Marine Corp-4 points
5 Tech Level 6 Cruisers-8 points
8 Marine Shipping-40 points
2 Coastal Artillery-6 points
Spare-1 point

1932-Final Year of Reconstruction

89+4 for factory+4 for shipping

93 points

Flak Artillery-3 points
10 destroyers-8 points
Tactical Radio-12 points
Infrastructure-20 points
Education-15 points (will not continue at same levels)
Spare Industrial Capacity-16 points


New Normal Level Spending: 49 (39 for factory[maxed out], +10 for airline, shipping, French West Africa)


Military Forces (Disposition in Military Thread)

3 Flak Artillery
2 Coastal Arillery
20 destroyers
5 cruisers
20 subs (left over from war, tech level 5)
4 Mechanized Corps (3 built, one left over from war)
Alpine Corp
3 Motorised Corps
2 fighter units
1 bomber unit (left over from war)
1 transport unit
4 pilots
1 Marine Corp
1 HQ Unit

To compete with the rest of the world, Australia has also begun a national industrial effort (ooc: that fancy 5-yr plan thing)

1927--10 points:

1 Garrison Unit for Sydney-3 points
1 Garrison Unit for Melbourne-3 points
1 Garrison Unit for Perth-3 points
1 point to improve infrastructure

1928 --20 points:

1 motorized infantry corps-3 points
1 Tech 6 Heavy Cruiser (halfdone this yr)--7 points
1 Group of 10 Destroyers--8 points
1 pilot (no planes yet)--2 points

1929--20 points:

1 garrison unit for Brisbane-3 points
1 tech 6 Heavy Cruiser (finished)--7 points
1 tech 6 Heavy Cruiser (halfdone this yr)--7 points
1 tech 6 Shipping unit--3 points

1930--20 points:

1 tech 6 Heavy Cruiser (finished)--7 points
1 tech 6 Light Cruiser (halfdone this yr)--6 points
1 tech 6 Sub Unit (10 subs)--4 pts
1 tech 6 Shipping unit--3 points

1931--20 points:

1 tech 6 Light Cruiser (finished)--6 points
2 tech 6 Light Cruisers (halfdone this yr)--12 points
Improvements to Infastructure--2 points

1932--20 points:

2 tech 6 Light Cruisers (finished this yr)--12 points
1 group of 10 Destroyers--8 pts

ooc: still not sure I entirely understand point systems so let me know how inaccurate this is.

I was wondering about the National Effort/Five Year Plan thing. How long would it be before maintaining such an economic state become detrimental to the nation? I know it reduces growth drastically, but does it actually negatively affect one's country?

I ask because I've been contemplating going to a National Effort-type economy for an extended period time (perhaps or fifteen years) in order to put South Africa on the map, so to speak, as an industrial and economic power, though obviously not at the top of the list.
If I recall correctly, even the Soviet Union only did two Five Year Plans, and the New Deal also lasted around a decade. 'Fifties-era recovery in the US was about the same (true fact - the American suburban middle class was invented in the nineteen-fifties only by massive government subsidization - it only looked laissez-faire because government spending was mediated through private contractors). I'm not sure what the consequences of trying to extend a National Effort beyond ten years would be.

My guess, off the top of my head, is civil unrest or just lack of an ability to implement it. Look at what happened to the Great Society in the 'Sixties, after all.

Italy why do you have 34 points in 1927? Just wondering

I have 15 base points (I believe GB said I got all my points in 1927), plus I have 2 colonies (Tunisia, Libya), with the potential for a third (come on Britain! Do I get it or not?). Finally, I am on a national effort which gives me twice my points. I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something.

i was pretty sure that we were going to start at 1929, with all industries being completed and the depressions over, with the national efforts and stuff starting then.

I looked at this:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9934441&postcount=686

If I recall correctly, even the Soviet Union only did two Five Year Plans, and the New Deal also lasted around a decade. 'Fifties-era recovery in the US was about the same (true fact - the American suburban middle class was invented in the nineteen-fifties only by massive government subsidization - it only looked laissez-faire because government spending was mediated through private contractors). I'm not sure what the consequences of trying to extend a National Effort beyond ten years would be.

My guess, off the top of my head, is civil unrest or just lack of an ability to implement it. Look at what happened to the Great Society in the 'Sixties, after all.

So if China goes on its first Great Expansion Plan from 1932 - 1937, then a second one from 1937 - 1942, then switch to Normal or Government Cuts economy, then will I be all set? :)

I guess I’ll follow the crowd, peer pressure, and do a five year plan. So I’ll have 20 points for the next 5 years although I have the bad feeling there’s a catch to this plan.
Anyway..

1927-20 points-:
1 airliner 4 points)
1 pilot (2 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1928-28 points (2 left over plus 3 gained from shipping and airliner*2 for 5 year plan)-:
2 air liner (8 points)
2 pilots (4 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
4 point left over

1929-38 points (Plus extra points and airliner/shipping points*2)-:
4 air liner (16 points)
4 pilots (8 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1930-48 points (Blah blah blah)-:
2 shipping units (6 points)
2 factories (36 points)
6 points left over

1931-60 points-:
3 factories (54 points)
6 points left over

1932-30 points(5 year plan over now)+6 extra so its 36 points-:
…not planning on buying anything….can I just bank these points??

So by 1932 I'll be getting 15 points from factories exc and 15 from airliners/shipping.

So by 1932 I'll be getting 15 points from factories exc and 15 from airliners/shipping.
You can only get a maximum of two points from airlines, one point from a domestic airline, and one point from an international. You can build more, but at this tech level they won't give you any benefit.

I regret to inform you that your productivity cap for industry is pretty low, too. Sweden in this era has only about 6 million people. At Normal Spending, that means you only get six production points from industry, or twelve if you do a National Effort.

Since points gained from commerce don't change with your spending levels (GB hasn't ruled, but I don't see any reason why they should), if you maximized your economic potential (i.e., built as much industry as you possibly could), you'd get 23 production points per turn at Normal Spending (6 from industry, 15 from merchant marine, and 2 from airlines), or 29 points at National Effort levels.

Of course, you've already got six production points at Normal Spending levels, so investing in more industry won't do you any good. Build up a merchant marine, though, and two air services, and you won't be doing so bad for your size.

You can only get a maximum of two points from airlines, one point from a domestic airline, and one point from an international. You can build more, but at this tech level they won't give you any benefit.

I regret to inform you that your productivity cap for industry is pretty low, too. Sweden in this era has only about 6 million people. At Normal Spending, that means you only get six production points from industry, or twelve if you do a National Effort.

Since points gained from commerce don't change with your spending levels (GB hasn't ruled, but I don't see any reason why they should), if you maximized your economic potential (i.e., built as much industry as you possibly could), you'd get 23 production points per turn at Normal Spending (6 from industry, 15 from merchant marine, and 2 from airlines), or 29 points at National Effort levels.

Of course, you've already got six production points at Normal Spending levels, so investing in more industry won't do you any good. Build up a merchant marine, though, and two air services, and you won't be doing so bad for your size.


Vas is correct

I have 15 base points (I believe GB said I got all my points in 1927), plus I have 2 colonies (Tunisia, Libya), with the potential for a third (come on Britain! Do I get it or not?). Finally, I am on a national effort which gives me twice my points. I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on something.

your fine, although Djibouti isn't worth anything as a colony even if you get it.

FINAL UK BUILD REVISION (I promise!)



Commonwealth NPC's:

All to go onto standard economy immediately and then down to half economy for the next 4 years:
British Ireland 2 (LTA): 2 infantry corps, 1 fighter unit, 1 mech unit
Canada 10 (LTA, Pan America): 2 mech units, 1 fighter unit, 1 bomber unit, 2 Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years , 1 HQ unit,
New Zealand 2 (LTA): 1 infantry corps, 1 fighter unit, 1 mech unit

The intention is to become less reliant on the British military and develop forces that can replace British garrisons as soon as possible.

except for during wartime, the economic moderator (me) will handle the NPC dominions.. and they have built as much as they are going too by 1932 (see military thread). Ireland has a reserve infantry corps and thats it, while Ireland, Canada, New Zealand simply provide pilots and other personnel to the British air forces. They don't want to spend the money for a big peacetime military.

One thing: I maintain control of French West Africa, as per France's capitulation terms.

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9890726&postcount=427)

One thing: I maintain control of French West Africa, as per France's capitulation terms.

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9890726&postcount=427)

that is correct.. areas that are colonies (instead of British Dominions) remain under the control of the nation that owns them.

French Placeholder updated

Romanian Build Plans For 1927-1932

National Effort for 4 years

1927

10 Points

Factory-10 Point

1928

10 Points

Factory-8 points
Upgrade 2 Infantry Corps to Motorised Corps-2 points

1929

14 points
Factory-14 points

1930

14 points
Factory-4 Points
Fighter Unit-3 Points
Pilot-6 point
Spare-1 Point

1931, National Effort Over

7 Points

Shipping Counter-5 Points
Upgrade Last 2 Infantry Corps to Motorised-2 Points

1932

7 Points

Shipping Counter-5 Points
Infrastructure-2 Points

+1 Next year from Shipping

GB, do you know what the state of the previous Romania's navy was? I know he had 4 inf corps, but other than that I don't know. Thanks!

Romanian Build Plans For 1927-1932
GB, do you know what the state of the previous Romania's navy was? I know he had 4 inf corps, but other than that I don't know. Thanks!

I have lost track, but historically they had a few destroyers and that was about it

I guess I’ll follow the crowd, peer pressure, and do a five year plan. So I’ll have 20 points for the next 5 years although I have the bad feeling there’s a catch to this plan.
Anyway..

1927-20 points-:
1 airliner 4 points)
1 pilot (2 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1928-28 points (2 left over plus 3 gained from shipping and airliner*2 for 5 year plan)-:
2 air liner (8 points)
2 pilots (4 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
4 point left over

1929-38 points (Plus extra points and airliner/shipping points*2)-:
4 air liner (16 points)
4 pilots (8 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1930-48 points (Blah blah blah)-:
2 shipping units (6 points)
2 factories (36 points)
6 points left over

1931-60 points-:
3 factories (54 points)
6 points left over

1932-30 points(5 year plan over now)+6 extra so its 36 points-:
…not planning on buying anything….can I just bank these points??

So by 1932 I'll be getting 15 points from factories exc and 15 from airliners/shipping.

points can't be saved from year to year, why not cut the budget instead and rely on private sector growth? Otherwise it looks ok.

Yugoslavia Peacetime spendingi guess from 1927 on)

1926 Builds (still at war level production)
2xMotorized to Mech conversions-4 points
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry(put 9 points in industry)

Points used: 15 Reserve:0

1927 Builds (Changed to peacetime production)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry cont.(6 more points added bringing total to 15 of 36)

Points used: 8 Reserve: 0

1928 Builds (peacetime)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(6 more points added bringing total to 21 of 36)

Points used: 8 Reserve: 0

1929 Builds:
1xpilot(2 points)
1xfighter[IK-2](2 points)
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(2 more points added bringing total to 23 of 36)

Points used:8 Reserves:0

1930:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1xIndustry cont.(6 points put down on, bringing total to 29 of 36)

Points used:8 Reserves:0

1931:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(6 points put down on, bringing total to 35 of 36)
Points used:8 Reserves:0

1932:
Increase tech level(2 points,one for education and one for industry)
1x Industry cont.(1 point put down on, finishing construction finally)
1xFortification on Italian border(2 points)
1xShipping unit[for merchant marines](3 points)

Points used:8 Reserve:0

Just for reference 1933 planned forces:
2x4 point Reserve infantry divisions
1x5 point Alpine Corps
1x5 point Infantry Corps
2x7 point Mech Corps
1x HQ unit
1xfighter[IK-2](will be finished by 1930)
1xpilot(will be finished by 1930)
1xLight ship in Split
1xMerchant marines


GB, i reworked a lot of it, just seeing if this is a plausible plan. I should be able to have another 2 build points by next year due to my construction of a factory.

Djoubiti (sp?) still hasn't been worked out, I am assuming I am going to get that and get another +1, and need Britain to confirm or deny this.

Yes Italy gets Dijbouti. I thought I said that somewhere, I could be misremembering things though.

In a similar veinn is there any word on how the other ex-french territories are being split up?

Yugoslavia Peacetime spendingi guess from 1927 on)
Snip.
This looks plausible to me.

Congratulatulations for not jumping on the Five Year Planwagon.

except for during wartime, the economic moderator (me) will handle the NPC dominions.

Ah good, it'll make it easier for me to sort things out without getting sidetracked on other countries. Thanks GB.

Yes Italy gets Dijbouti. I thought I said that somewhere, I could be misremembering things though.

In a similar veinn is there any word on how the other ex-french territories are being split up?

French West Africa, Martinique and Guadualupe remain (or are returned) to the French. Tunisia went to Italy, Algeria gained independence.

French West Africa is what on modern maps would Mauratania, Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea, Upper Volta and the Ivory Coast.

Chad, the Central African Republic, French Congo and Gabon go to the British.

Mauritus, Reunion are currently held by the Australians and they get to decide to keep them or hand them over to either South Africa or Britian.

Madagascar is held by Argentina and South Africa jointly, and they intend to split it between them.

French Guyana is held by Colombia which will keep it. Canada took over a couple of small French islands at the mouth of the St. Lawrence River and keeps them. The US keeps Clipperton Island, and already owned French Polynesia from before the war. The Australians have New Caledonia and the Santa Cruz Islands from before the war. India took over the small French possessions that were on the Indian Subcontinent.

The former Spanish Canary Islands are in US hands as a client state. Spanish Madeira is in British hands.

The US gave Portugal the Azores Islands in return for a 99 year lease for a naval and air station. Portugal still owns the Cape Verde Islands, Portuguese Guinea (Guinea Bissou modern day), Angola, Mozambique, Portuguese Timor, Portuguese Goa (in India).

China took possession of Portuguese Macoa and British Hong Kong and has not returned them. Nor will they.

German Cameroon is under British control. You gave Djibouti to the Italians (which wasn't much of a prize). You already acquired Tanzania and Namibia (which belongs to South Africa)

Africa
http://www.sandafayre.com/Amaps/africa268.jpg
http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/images/africa.jpg

I guess I’ll follow the crowd, peer pressure, and do a five year plan. So I’ll have 20 points for the next 5 years although I have the bad feeling there’s a catch to this plan.
Anyway..

1927-20 points-:
1 airliner 4 points)
1 pilot (2 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1928-28 points (2 left over plus 3 gained from shipping and airliner*2 for 5 year plan)-:
2 air liner (8 points)
2 pilots (4 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
4 point left over

1929-38 points (Plus extra points and airliner/shipping points*2)-:
4 air liner (16 points)
4 pilots (8 points)
4 shipping units (12 points)
2 points left over

1930-48 points (Blah blah blah)-:
2 shipping units (6 points)
2 factories (36 points)
6 points left over

1931-60 points-:
3 factories (54 points)
6 points left over

1932-30 points(5 year plan over now)+6 extra so its 36 points-:
…not planning on buying anything….can I just bank these points??

So by 1932 I'll be getting 15 points from factories exc and 15 from airliners/shipping.


Alrite, I really really don't feel like going back over andd editing everything so basically after the second airline since I can only use two the rest are shipping units untill I hit the max of 30 and cut out the factories as I can't use em. All the bonus points that I have wil be spent on infrastructure and upgrading any units that need upgraded or modernized. 1932 I'll go to reduced spending as I'm not going to need all them points.

So in the end I'll have 15 shipping points, 2 airliner points and 6? factory or w/e points.

Thanks Vas for ruining my whole build.:mad:
Anyway...GB, is there anything I can do with all these extra points from 1933 on out as I don't need to build anything? And is there anyway my economy can expand past the max its at now?

LR, can you fix the map now? Possibly you could have colors on the lines around the countries that are LTA or Pact.

Thanks Vas for ruining my whole build.:mad:

That's what I'm here for. My greatest joy is to crush the dreams and hopes of others.

Anyway. Your economy can expand in two ways. First, you grow (or otherwise acquire) more population. That's the quick and easy path.

The other way is to wait for the world economy to expand so that your shipping and air transport limits increase. That could take awhile.

In the meantime, you have 23 points to spend, yes. Six of those points are derived from your industry, and those will double for "National Effort" or halve for "Cut Spending." Considering your economy is already maxed out, though, there's no reason to Cut Spending.

It's not my fault you picked a marginal Scandinavian wasteland to live in. Switching countries would actually be the best way to pick up more points. We need a Netherlands, for instance, or a Peru, or an Ethiopia or Siam or Mexico. Any of those would be a lot less limited than Sweden.

Anyway...GB, is there anything I can do with all these extra points from 1933 on out as I don't need to build anything? And is there anyway my economy can expand past the max its at now?

not really, your internal market can only get so big because you have only so many consumers. You could always give points away to less developed nations (foreign aid), or spend on spiffy military projects or even carry out research (like radar etc).

*Nudges Alt Aus*

If I were you, I'd give the extra points to Italy. It always gives you good press when you send points to a war ravaged nation. Never mind the fact that Italy has pretty much recovered, it's the thought that counts ;)

Ok, with the 23 points in 1932 I'm gonna start sending them oversea's. 15 will go to OE to upgrade and modernize there fleet(we'll be signing a treaty soon.). Another 6 will go to Denmark and Norway(I'll explain why in the main thread later). 2 of the last 4 will be going to my infrastructure which by now should be amazing with all the extra points I've pumped into it.

Tech Levels
As much as I detest the free market, I have to give credit where credit is due and concede that certain advantages ought to accrue out of Cut Spending levels. Technological progress, for instance. It's weird to think that the US might get totally left behind by Yugoslavia simply because the Americans aren't spending a lot of points on scientific achievement. They should be subsidizing it if they want to stay competitive, but the market would also take up a lot of the slack by itself.

If we halved or quartered the expense necessary for technological advancement at Cut Spending levels, that might be the way to go. I wouldn't recommend eliminating it entirely - "true" laissez-faire wouldn't work nearly as well as a subsidized scientific community.

Welfare
I was also thinking about welfare systems. I don't think they'd much of a game-mechanics effect, beyond keeping your population healthy and "happy" (whatever that means). But I was thinking that a Basic Welfare system (like the US) might cost, say, 1 point annually per 10 million people, while a Comprehensive Welfare system might cost 1 point for every 5 million. A Comprehensive Welfare system would therefore cost me 50(!) points to maintain every year. Of course, oddly enough, I don't have a welfare system in place yet. But it's still the 1920's, and I haven't had time. I'll start building one in 1932 or '33.

Corruption
I've been thinking a little about corruption, too. Again, I don't think the points system should be entirely involved, but even so corruption to a large extent simply represents wasted resources, so at some point it will adversely affect production.

The main circumstances under which it seems to flourish are (1) when the distribution of power and resources is highly uneven, and (2) when transparency and the accountability of authority are lacking. Thus, both socialist and capitalist countries have their own potential vulnerabilities. Premodern economies in trasition, too, like the MEU, India, China, Latin America, and eventually Africa, will be especially prone to problems with institutional corruption and thus economic waste and social unrest. I think that various states will have to analyzed on a case-by-case basis for these factors.

China's Grand Expansion Plan I (GEP I) 1932 - 1937.

China's goal for Standing Army:

14 garrisons
6 fighters
5 HQ's

----------------------
1926 Army (should have been completed or at least survived by Jan. 1927):

3 HQ's
14 Garrisons (Can convert my 6 old surviving corps into Garrisons if needed)
6 Fighters
1 Bomber
1 Maritime Bomber
15 Light Cruisers
2 Capital Ships
3 Shipping Units (3 Units of Merchant Marine)

Thus, I will be building the last 2 HQ's and any other military stuff to achieve my standing army goal- this is assumed to take place between 1926 and 1932.

------------------------------
Build Plan:

1932: China has 26 points multiplied by two for the GEP-I program, giving it 52 points total.

4 Factories (48 points)
1 Merchant Marine (3 points)
1 point in reserve.

1933:

4 Factories (48 points)
2 Merchant Marine (6 points)

1934:

5 Factories (60 points)

1935:

6 Factories (72 points)

1936:

7 Factories (84 points)

1937:

8 Factories (96 points)


------------------------------
I have no idea what extra points I may have for 1933 - 1937. Could someone help me out with that? Besides, is my standing army okay, given China's poor defenses at the start of WW-II and the fact that China needed to catch up a lot in its defenses?

Or do I have to reduce the garrison numbers? I'm willing to go down to 7- I need at least one garrison unit to protect *EVERY* city that contributes industrial points (like Shanghai, Canton, Mukden, Peking, etc.)

How many extra points do I have for 1933 - 1937? If I have any, can I put them into Merchant Marine and perhaps some more factories or research?

Tech Levels
As much as I detest the free market, I have to give credit where credit is due and concede that certain advantages ought to accrue out of Cut Spending levels. Technological progress, for instance. It's weird to think that the US might get totally left behind by Yugoslavia simply because the Americans aren't spending a lot of points on scientific achievement. They should be subsidizing it if they want to stay competitive, but the market would also take up a lot of the slack by itself.

If we halved or quartered the expense necessary for technological advancement at Cut Spending levels, that might be the way to go. I wouldn't recommend eliminating it entirely - "true" laissez-faire wouldn't work nearly as well as a subsidized scientific community.

Welfare
I was also thinking about welfare systems. I don't think they'd much of a game-mechanics effect, beyond keeping your population healthy and "happy" (whatever that means). But I was thinking that a Basic Welfare system (like the US) might cost, say, 1 point annually per 10 million people, while a Comprehensive Welfare system might cost 1 point for every 5 million. A Comprehensive Welfare system would therefore cost me 50(!) points to maintain every year. Of course, oddly enough, I don't have a welfare system in place yet. But it's still the 1920's, and I haven't had time. I'll start building one in 1932 or '33.

I must agree with Vas on the fact that technology shouldn't be totally based on points put in, etc. Moderation should be used to keep nations like Yugoslavia, Rumania, Spain, etc from growing too far in technology so as too outpace the world powers. If not moderation, then i find Vas' thoughts to be acceptable. A minor discount on technological advancements should be put into place if the moderators do not feel like making a case by case choice on everyone.

As for welfare, i feel this is a good thought as well, as it will also help when another problem, like the epidemic in the 2nd Great War, creeps up. This way health systems have as tangible a value as industry etc. Also gives a counter to the socialist ideals which are becoming so popular, to be truely socialist it will cost ya :P

I must agree with Vas on the fact that technology shouldn't be totally based on points put in, etc. Moderation should be used to keep nations like Yugoslavia, Rumania, Spain, etc from growing too far in technology so as too outpace the world powers. If not moderation, then i find Vas' thoughts to be acceptable. A minor discount on technological advancements should be put into place if the moderators do not feel like making a case by case choice on everyone.

As for welfare, i feel this is a good thought as well, as it will also help when another problem, like the epidemic in the 2nd Great War, creeps up. This way health systems have as tangible a value as industry etc. Also gives a counter to the socialist ideals which are becoming so popular, to be truely socialist it will cost ya :P

Seconded.

Tech Levels
As much as I detest the free market, I have to give credit where credit is due and concede that certain advantages ought to accrue out of Cut Spending levels. Technological progress, for instance. It's weird to think that the US might get totally left behind by Yugoslavia simply because the Americans aren't spending a lot of points on scientific achievement. They should be subsidizing it if they want to stay competitive, but the market would also take up a lot of the slack by itself.

If we halved or quartered the expense necessary for technological advancement at Cut Spending levels, that might be the way to go. I wouldn't recommend eliminating it entirely - "true" laissez-faire wouldn't work nearly as well as a subsidized scientific community.

Television, FM radio, AM radio, and personal computers are all results of commercial research and market forces. Although all have direct military applications (teleguided missiles and aircraft were used in World War II for example) they saw far more innovation because of free market competition.

The DC2 (and its successor the DC3) were the result of market demand for not only a better airliner, but also a private sector commerical prize for an aircraft capable of winning an air race from London to Melbourne. Some innovations are directly government invented however... such as the internet (designed as a means to keep communications going in the event of a nuclear war).

I am still figuring out how to represent this, but I have a few ideas I am kicking around. So far in the game I have simply used historical events and inventions, accelerated by a few years because of the long period of world tension between 1905 and 1926 that included 2 global wars. The US, UK, and Germany had a huge lead going into the century because they had huge industrial economies, and very large internal or external markets. The US invented the consumer economy during the 1920s historically, as well as nearly every kitchen and household appliance currently in your house (now very much refined and improved). These came about because of market forces, and the government intervention and subsidized research was minimal. However, the corporations spent a lot of money on research. Bell Labs, Westinghouse, GE, all spent a lot of money on research.

So its a tough one to factor in, and I am still pondering it. I think though that the size of your economy should be a generator for research. My suggestion, 1 free point of research for every 5 points your economy has at the normal (base line) level of production, 1 free point for every 10 during national effort (as less capital is available), and no free points during wartime level (as no capital is available). During reduced levels of spending, 2 points free research for every 5 points your economy has (a lot more money available).

So the US has a baseline of 125 in 1932, but has chosen reduced levels of spending. This gives the US 24 free points of research, which is appropriate as it was leading the world in a lot of areas of technology. This will also allow us to simulate the take off that Japan experienced in the 1970s as their economy grew and they spent very little on government spending, while the US spent huge amounts on military spending. (which allowed the Japanese to catch up with the US in nearly every current important area of technology except nuclear weapons by 1990, and arguably pass the US in some areas by 2000)


Welfare
I was also thinking about welfare systems. I don't think they'd much of a game-mechanics effect, beyond keeping your population healthy and "happy" (whatever that means). But I was thinking that a Basic Welfare system (like the US) might cost, say, 1 point annually per 10 million people, while a Comprehensive Welfare system might cost 1 point for every 5 million. A Comprehensive Welfare system would therefore cost me 50(!) points to maintain every year. Of course, oddly enough, I don't have a welfare system in place yet. But it's still the 1920's, and I haven't had time. I'll start building one in 1932 or '33.

Need should also factor in. The US for example has nearly 1 production point for every million people, which translates into low levels of poverty (comparatively) as that is a huge amount of wealth. China has roughly 15 points in 1932, 30 if you consider his plans. But that works out to 1 production point for every 32 million people. A far lower degree of wealth both absolutely and proportionally. Thats a lot of unemployment or people committed to subsistance agriculture. This one is also damned hard to simulate, so that too requires some thought. Incidently, a major factor in the US welfare system is that recognition that welfare also provides sufficient income for even the poorest to be consumers at least to some level. The consumer economy is absolutely critical to the US overall economy. So the US pays just enough welfare to ensure not only a basic level of subsistance, but also enough to allow for limited descretionary spending by everyone except the very poorest. Its pretty damned complex.


Corruption
I've been thinking a little about corruption, too. Again, I don't think the points system should be entirely involved, but even so corruption to a large extent simply represents wasted resources, so at some point it will adversely affect production.

The main circumstances under which it seems to flourish are (1) when the distribution of power and resources is highly uneven, and (2) when transparency and the accountability of authority are lacking. Thus, both socialist and capitalist countries have their own potential vulnerabilities. Premodern economies in trasition, too, like the MEU, India, China, Latin America, and eventually Africa, will be especially prone to problems with institutional corruption and thus economic waste and social unrest. I think that various states will have to analyzed on a case-by-case basis for these factors.

100% agreement

GB, your system with the free points sounds good, since i get like 2 free points(which i don't even think i can use until tech level 6 anyway, isn't that what tech you have to be to research?) Where as a nation like Germany, Russia, or America gets much more going on in their tech department. This does pretty well to show the fact that us smaller nations just don't have the companies needed to do those types of research. I fully support the free points system.

As i stated before, do you have to be tech level 6 to research or no?

Need should also factor in. The US for example has nearly 1 production point for every million people, which translates into low levels of poverty (comparatively) as that is a huge amount of wealth. China has roughly 15 points in 1932, 30 if you consider his plans. But that works out to 1 production point for every 32 million people. A far lower degree of wealth both absolutely and proportionally. Thats a lot of unemployment or people committed to subsistance agriculture. This one is also damned hard to simulate, so that too requires some thought. Incidently, a major factor in the US welfare system is that recognition that welfare also provides sufficient income for even the poorest to be consumers at least to some level. The consumer economy is absolutely critical to the US overall economy. So the US pays just enough welfare to ensure not only a basic level of subsistance, but also enough to allow for limited descretionary spending by everyone except the very poorest. Its pretty damned complex.

Actually, I have 26 production points a year on Normal level, and 52 on New Deal level, not 15 Normal or 30 New Deal.

When you think about it... 13 production points a turn during wartime (1924 - 1926) means a total of 78 production points a year. Then divide 78 by a factor of 3 (a factor of 1/3 for peace-time economy or "Normal" level). I get 26 points which should be about right for peace-time or "Normal" level. Double that for my New Deal effort to get 52 points total.

Sorry to be nitpicky, thats the way I am and my personality to be a perfectionist.

Actually, I have 26 production points a year on Normal level, and 52 on New Deal level, not 15 Normal or 30 New Deal.

When you think about it... 13 production points a turn during wartime (1924 - 1926) means a total of 78 production points a year. Then divide 78 by a factor of 3 (a factor of 1/3 for peace-time economy or "Normal" level). I get 26 points which should be about right for peace-time or "Normal" level. Double that for my New Deal effort to get 52 points total.

Sorry to be nitpicky, thats the way I am and my personality to be a perfectionist.

26 points divided into roughly 500 million people doesn't go a long way in any event.

by the way, Ottoman, you don't have to be tech level 6 to do research. A tech level 5 nation is doing research to get to tech level 6.

Australian Placeholder has been updated

Well(i am guessing you meant me and not Ottoman) can i put the two extra points i get for having a population of 10 million and being at normal spending into something like plastics or mass-production or something that will help out my economy?

Korean National Effort

The National Enrichment Plan-

1932- 5 points to spare, National Effort grants 2x points, makes for 10 points altogether.

Two pilot units-4 points
one twin engined transport-4 points


1933- 10 points

Education Jump to Tech Level 6- 3 points (1 point per 10 mil, 30 million Koreans)

One HQ Unit-6 points

That's about it, since these are long term projects......

OOC: Don't know about you, but I'd recommend that you spend your points more on researching to get tech level 6 (you are tech level 5, aren't you?) than buying up some military equipment. And I'd recommend you do that at as low spending level as possible.

Do I have to wait until next week before I can post my build for 1932?

Right now as far as I know, I have 52 points (26 x 2) and I guess I'll be building 4 factories for 48 points and then a Merchant Marine unit for 3 points. I'll have 1 point left over for 1932, which I'll save for 1933.

OOC: Don't know about you, but I'd recommend that you spend your points more on researching to get tech level 6 (you are tech level 5, aren't you?) than buying up some military equipment. And I'd recommend you do that at as low spending level as possible.

OOC: How's my build order look now? I added Education Jump to Tech 6. The planes and pilots are to start up an international airline, to aid trade and probably get more points.

Argentina's Builds are updated

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9936399&postcount=31

Argentina, if you are improving your education system to get the next tech level, don't forget that you have too have a point that is not being used for it to count toward it. I think that is how it works anyway, if not i will have to redo mine :P

I intend to add some research projects available to tech level 6 nations this weekend. However, they will not be available to research until the 1933 turn (for simplicity sake). I also intend to add in some game effects for some of the ones already proposed by various countries.

by the way, Vas have you read this yet

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9945877&postcount=75

Argentina, if you are improving your education system to get the next tech level, don't forget that you have too have a point that is not being used for it to count toward it. I think that is how it works anyway, if not i will have to redo mine :P

I have no idea what that means. Do I need 2 points / turn / 10 million people to upgrade? Do I need to decide "not" to spend the points and thus it is added to education? The way it's written it looks like I need 1 point / turn / 10 million people spent on education that isn't earmarked for anything else. In that case I fullfill the requirement completely.

OOC: How's my build order look now? I added Education Jump to Tech 6. The planes and pilots are to start up an international airline, to aid trade and probably get more points.

You're buying what looks like two national airlines to me. You have to buy a two engined transport to get the international airlines. I think you can only get one point for a national airlines, and one point for an international airlines, no matter how many transports and pilots you throw at it. This may or may not increase in the future, due to tech level and other things.

I have no idea what that means. Do I need 2 points / turn / 10 million people to upgrade? Do I need to decide "not" to spend the points and thus it is added to education? The way it's written it looks like I need 1 point / turn / 10 million people spent on education that isn't earmarked for anything else. In that case I fullfill the requirement completely.

You need to, according to the front page, spend 1 point per 10 million people (so, for example, if you have 20 million, you spend 2 points), every year, for ten years. Plus, it sounds like you would need an additional 1 point per 10 million that is not being spent on anything.

As Italy that would require me to spend 4 points for 10 years, while holding 4 points in reserve for 10 years. This is the way I understand it.

Yes, comrades, I am attempting to fulfill my little-filled role (economod).

You're buying what looks like two national airlines to me. You have to buy a two engined transport to get the international airlines. I think you can only get one point for a national airlines, and one point for an international airlines, no matter how many transports and pilots you throw at it. This may or may not increase in the future, due to tech level and other things.

OOC: Done and done, changed to a shiny new twin engine transport.

China's Military as of 1932:

*14 Garrison Corps.

2 each in Peking, Shanghai, Canton, Tienstin, Mukden, Kunming, and Lanchow.

6 Fighter Units.

3 each in Shanghai and Canton.

1 Land Bomber unit.
1 Maritime Bomber unit.

Both in Canton.

4 Merchant Marine.

4 in Canton.

2 Capital Counters
15 Light Ship Counters

Roughly half in Shanghai and the other half in Canton.

5 HQ Units.

1 each in Shanghai, Canton, Kunming, Peking, and Mukden.

-------------------------------

* = I'm willing to cut down from 14 garrisons (if thats too much) to 7 garrisons as long as I'm allowed to maintain at least one garrison unit in EVERY Chinese city that contributes industrial output (or points).

-------------------------------

China's Income for 1932:

26 points from native industry.
2 points from China's 4 shipping units (2 million tons of shipping).

China's Economy Mode: National Effort, multiplies China's 28 points by a factor of 2 to a total of 56 points.

China's Builds for 1932:

15 merchant Marine Units at 3 points each for a total of 45 points.

2 Pilots at 2 points each for a total of 4 points.

1 National Airline for 3 points. (Assign Pilot #1 to this)

1 International Airline for 4 points. (Assign Pilot #2 to this)

Total Expenditures: 56 points.

-------------------------------

Is this better for all concerned? Please let me know. :)

China's Grand Expansion Plan I (GEP I) 1932 - 1937.

China's goal for Standing Army:

14 garrisons
6 fighters
5 HQ's

----------------------
1926 Army (should have been completed or at least survived by Jan. 1927):

3 HQ's
14 Garrisons (Can convert my 6 old surviving corps into Garrisons if needed)
6 Fighters
1 Bomber
1 Maritime Bomber
15 Light Cruisers
2 Capital Ships
3 Shipping Units (3 Units of Merchant Marine)

Thus, I will be building the last 2 HQ's and any other military stuff to achieve my standing army goal- this is assumed to take place between 1926 and 1932.

------------------------------
Build Plan:

1932: China has 26 points multiplied by two for the GEP-I program, giving it 52 points total.

4 Factories (48 points)
1 Merchant Marine (3 points)
1 point in reserve.

1933:

4 Factories (48 points)
2 Merchant Marine (6 points)

1934:

5 Factories (60 points)

1935:

6 Factories (72 points)

1936:

7 Factories (84 points)

1937:

8 Factories (96 points)


------------------------------
I have no idea what extra points I may have for 1933 - 1937. Could someone help me out with that? Besides, is my standing army okay, given China's poor defenses at the start of WW-II and the fact that China needed to catch up a lot in its defenses?

How many extra points do I have for 1933 - 1937? If I have any, can I put them into Merchant Marine and perhaps some more factories or research?

First of all, your years are totally wrong. Start at 1927, not 1932.

Secondly, at National Effort, it takes 18 points to buy a factory, not 12. For 48 points, you can buy two (and two-thirds) factories. Even if you spent your entire 52 points, you wouldn't be able to build three - let alone four.

So, for 1927, you can build two factories, and you'll have 16 points left over for other things. I'd suggest building shipping, fortifications, or railroads.

Each factory you build will give you 4 additional points the next year, and every two units of shipping will give you 1 additional point the next year - but only 15 points can be gotten from shipping.

I hope that's clear.

You need to, according to the front page, spend 1 point per 10 million people (so, for example, if you have 20 million, you spend 2 points), every year, for ten years. Plus, it sounds like you would need an additional 1 point per 10 million that is not being spent on anything.

As Italy that would require me to spend 4 points for 10 years, while holding 4 points in reserve for 10 years. This is the way I understand it.

Yes, comrades, I am attempting to fulfill my little-filled role (economod).
In other words, yes, you have to spend two points for every ten million people, though you get free points at different levels of spending.

Algeria's National Plan:

Phase 1:First National Effort
1926:
3 to building a factory(3)
1 to compensate for land reform

1927
3 to building a factory(6)
1 to compensate for land reform

1928
3 to building a factory(9)
1 for education (I have about 5 million people)


1929
3 to building a factory(12)
1 for education

1930
3 to building a factory(15)
1 for education

1931:
3 to building a factory(18)
1 for education
Phase 1 Ends

1932: (Breather\Cut Government Spending)
Factory Complete +1
1 for education
1 for shipping

1933: Phase2 :Second National Effort
2/3 shipping unit complete
4 to building a factory(4)
1 for education
2 on railroad and infrastructure
1 on shipping

1934
1 and 1/3 shipping complete
4 to building a factory(8)
1 for Education
1 on shipping
2 on infantry

1935
2 shipping complete +1
4 to building a factory(12)
2 on infantry
2 on field artillary
1 on education

1936
6 to building a factory(18)
2 on field artillary
1 on education

1937
Factory Complete + 4 point total=12
12 on factory
1 on education

1938
6 on factory
3 on infrastructure
3 on shipping
1 on education

end of national effort (return to normal)

natural growth at the end of 1939 = 0.88 points


so by 1939 1 more factory should be completed +2 shipping units

In other words, yes, you have to spend two points for every ten million people, though you get free points at different levels of spending.

So, in other words, I get these "free" points for normal spending... I assume the research points discussed above that comes out of the free market.

In actuality this is quite cumbersome and not exactly clear in the point cost post, as the country in the example appears to be spending only 1 point/year.

Why not just change the post to read 2 points / 10 million / year?

Either way, Vas, GB, do I have the "free" points to continue my educational reforms? Or do I have to redo my points?

You're buying what looks like two national airlines to me. You have to buy a two engined transport to get the international airlines. I think you can only get one point for a national airlines, and one point for an international airlines, no matter how many transports and pilots you throw at it. This may or may not increase in the future, due to tech level and other things.

you are correct Fluffy... I will read more later on today as to other questions

I have revised my plans, but are they correct?

I have revised my plans, but are they correct?

Let's take a look....

I don't think you have to do the contracts or whatever, it doesn't really do anything for you. If your intentions are more production, you can buy two shipping units (6 points) for one point per year, or spend 2 points for pilot and 3 or 4 points for aircraft for airlines (one point gained for a domestic/3 point airline, one point gained for international/4 point airline). I don't think the shipping/airline points get multiplied for national effort, etc.

If your intentions are upgrading your tech level, you must spend what amounts to 2 points per 10 million people per year for 10 years. 1 point per year for 10 years for education, and holding 1 point per year in reserve for 10 years.

At national effort you get 1 free point for every 10 (baseline) points, 1 free point per five at normal, and 2 per 5 at reduced spending.

Being lazy and having not done anything on interest for myself (or anyone), I won't even comment on the interest. I will go take a look at my build, just to be sure I didn't screw up....

First of all, your years are totally wrong. Start at 1927, not 1932.

Secondly, at National Effort, it takes 18 points to buy a factory, not 12. For 48 points, you can buy two (and two-thirds) factories. Even if you spent your entire 52 points, you wouldn't be able to build three - let alone four.

So, for 1927, you can build two factories, and you'll have 16 points left over for other things. I'd suggest building shipping, fortifications, or railroads.

Each factory you build will give you 4 additional points the next year, and every two units of shipping will give you 1 additional point the next year - but only 15 points can be gotten from shipping.

I hope that's clear.

Okay. Thanks for the correction, Vas.

Here's my build spanning 1927 - 1933 (two National Effort plans at 5 years each) and my build with my points for 1926. Hopefully I got this right once and for all.

1926:

Income: 78 points (War-time economy) + 0 points in reserve.

Expeditures:

2 Garrisons (4 points)
5 Fighters (10 points)
3 Factories (36 points)
4 HQ units (24 points)
Repairs to my Battleships (2 points)

Scrap my 6 Infantry Corps (and if I did build new infantry corps, convert them to garrisons so that I do not need to build the 2 new garrisons).

This should give me my standing army of 7 Garrisons, 5 HQ's, 6 Fighters, and my Navy repaired (as well as 3 shipping units I have). My HQ's should be finished mid-1927 at the latest, given that I started building 2 new ones in June / July after the war ended. However, my question is my 3 factories built in 1926 should have given me 16 industry points a turn by 1927 if the war did continue. However, with a peace-time economy starting in 1927...

16 points x 6 turns = 96 points. (Assuming war-time economy in 1927 which doesn't actually happen)

96 points divided by 3 for 1927 (revert to peace-time from war economy reduces points by 1/3)

Thus, I should have 32 points during peace-time for 1927. I'll implement this in my builds- if you have any objections, please do share. :)

1927: (Begin first National Effort program)

Income: 66 points + 0 points in reserve.

32 points from industry.
1 point from 3 shipping units.
33 total points (times 2 for National Effort).

Expeditures:

22 Merchant Marine (66 points)

1928:

Income: 88 points + 0 in reserve.

32 points from industry.
12 points from 25 shipping units.
42 total points (times 2 for National Effort).

Expeditures:

5 Merchant Marine (15 points)
3 Factory (54 points)
2 Pilot units (4 points)
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

8 points in reserve.

1929:

Income: 110 points + 8 points in reserve.

38 points from factories.
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.
55 total points.

Expeditures:

6 factories (108 points)

10 points in reserve.

1930:

Income: 134 points + 10 points in reserve.

50 points from factories.
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.
67 total points.

Expeditures:

8 factories (144 points)

1931: (Last year of first National Effort program)

Income: 166 points + 0 points in reserve.

66 points from factories.
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.
83 total points.

Expeditures:

9 factories (162 points)

4 points in reserve.

1932: (Start of second- and probably final- National Effort program)

Income: 202 points + 4 points in reserve.

84 points from factories.
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.
101 total points.

Expeditures:

11 factories (198 points).

Railroad from China through Laos to Cambodia: 8 points.

1933:

Income: 246 points + 0 points in reserve.

106 points from factories.
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.
123 total points.

Expeditures:

Undecided yet.

----------------------------------

I believe the following rates are about right...

1 point from 1 factory in Government Cuts mode.
2 points from 1 factory in peacetime.
4 points from 1 factory in National Effort.
6 points from 1 factory in War-Time Economy.

In 1933 onwards, I'm not sure what to do. I have 246 points (123 points times 2 for national effort), just enough for me to start my Education Jump to Tech Level 6 which should cost me 53 points annually (1 point for 1 million people) or 106 points if its 2 points per 1 million people.

However, I would like to expand some more industry so that I can do education jumps in addition to welfare programs later on, and China still being able to do extra stuff like research projects, expand railroads, civilian infrastructure, emergency points to build an army if China is invaded, and so on. China needs huge point totals just to "service" its garguantan population, much more so than the USA, UK, Russia, etc. In fact, China needs 4x as much points than the USA, 2.5x as much as Russia, and 10x as much as most mid-sized European countries (UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc.) just to educate *AND* welfare its people.

Does anyone have suggestions for me for 1933 onwards? Vas told me to start at 1927, not 1932.

Okay. Thanks for the correction, Vas.

Here's my build spanning 1927 - 1933 (two National Effort plans at 5 years each) and my build with my points for 1926. Hopefully I got this right once and for all.

1926:

Income: 78 points (War-time economy) + 0 points in reserve.

Expeditures:

2 Garrisons (4 points)
5 Fighters (10 points)
3 Factories (36 points)
4 HQ units (24 points)
Repairs to my Battleships (2 points)

Scrap my 6 Infantry Corps (and if I did build new infantry corps, convert them to garrisons so that I do not need to build the 2 new garrisons).

16 points x 6 turns = 96 points. (Assuming war-time economy in 1927 which doesn't actually happen)

96 points divided by 3 for 1927 (revert to peace-time from war economy reduces points by 1/3)

Thus, I should have 32 points during peace-time for 1927. I'll implement this in my builds- if you have any objections, please do share. :)

1927: (Begin first National Effort program)

Income: 66 points + 0 points in reserve.

32 points from industry.
1 point from 3 shipping units.
33 total points (times 2 for National Effort).



Okay, to reiterate, production points derived from shipping and air transportation are not affected by spending levels. In other words, if you get 3 production points per year from your merchant marine, you get those 3 production points regardless of whether you've Cut Spending, implemented a National Effort, or shifted your economy to Total War.

I realize this is complicated, but it represents the fact that the only way to affect trade volume is to build more ships. Even that will only take you so far, because the world economy can only support so much trade. A maximum of 2 points per year can be produced by an economy from air transportation in 1932, and a maximum of 15 points per year can be produced by an economy from maritime shipping. Adding more planes or ships will not improve those maximums, nor are those maximums changed by a government's spending level.

This will alter your points pretty drastically past your first year of production - so, yes, you have to do it again.

I hope this is clear.

Otherwise, these numbers you are using:
I believe the following rates are about right...

1 point from 1 factory in Government Cuts mode.
2 points from 1 factory in peacetime.
4 points from 1 factory in National Effort.
6 points from 1 factory in War-Time Economy.

are correct.

22 Merchant Marine (66 points)

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of ships.

Anyway, On to British Expenditure:

1926 UK (July, August, September-October, November-December turns):
42 points (reduced to normal economy):

2 points to finish strategic bombing research
3 points to finish 1 HQ
6 points to finish 3 UK 8 point mechanized corps
9 points to finish 3 UK bomber units
2 points to build 1 fighter unit
10 points: Tech 6 Battleship attack 4, protection 7, speed 4, range 5 Cost 10 build time 4 years (14 inch guns)
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
1 shipping unit 3 points

1927 UK (standard production, 2% growth (down to 1% due to war)):
42 points:

2 points to upgrade reserve motorised corps to mechanised
22 points to start NHS
2 points to upgrade 1 bomber unit from Heyfords to Hampdens and 1 fighter from Demons to Hurricanes.
8 points 2x Tech 6 submarine units (20 submarines total), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5, 4 points, 1 year
Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, Cost 8, build time 3 years (80 – 100 aircraft)

1928 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth, down to 4% due to war):
21 points (inc 2% growth from last year):
Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
3 points for 1 bomber unit (Hampdens)
2 points for 1 pilot unit
4 points of further investment in NHS

1929 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
22 points (inc 5% growth)

3 points into NHS
12 points for 1 factory
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

1930 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
25 points (inc. 5% growth)

4xFlak artillery attack strength 1, defense strength 3 (doubled against aircraft), cost 2 points, 2 turns.

1xCoast artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 0 Defense 5,

2xFortifications (permanent, doubles defense strength all defending units, destroyed if captured) 2 points, 2 turns

begin 1 factory 12 points

1931 UK(half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
26 points (inc 5% growth)

1xTech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (can trade) Cost 12 build time 5 years (16 inch guns)
add to one factory 14 points (now 26/30 complete)

1932 builds (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
29 points (inc 5% growth, 3 factories)

1xair transports 4 points (double engined)
6 points for 3 pilot units
10 points to finish 1 factory
6 points to begin a factory
3 points for 1 airborne corps

1933 builds (half economy, 5% growth)
30 points

30 points to finish factory

---------------------------------------

Sorry Parthini I missed your idea about the map, i'm in the process of updating it and will try to introduce some sort of Pact/LTA/Neutral aligned nations thing onto it. Thanks for your patience.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9938169&postcount=40

I've redone my own build list, factoring in factories adding points as I had not done that earlier. I will not factor in natural growth (I keep wanting to call it interest), at least not yet. I also found the points to add another fleet carrier, complete with aircraft, to my military. Assuming I didn't screw up.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9934708&postcount=17 I redid my list with the help of Italy, hopefull everything is right

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9934708&postcount=17 I redid my list with the help of Italy, hopefull everything is right

Yes, I helped him with his list, but there are still some bugs to work out (such as education).

My msn is cyborg_reborn@msn.com, feel free to message me and I will check your build for you before you post it. So that way there is less fine tuning to do after you post it.

Wow, that's a hell of a lot of ships.

Anyway, On to British Expenditure:
[snip]


I think you screwed up on build costs and such. Example "10 points to build 2 shipping units." It costs 6 points for two shipping units, which then give you an extra point. Since you are Britain, you might have all of your shipping points maxed out. Don't know. Also, factories cost 18 points at national effort, and then give 2 points at normal spending. It costs 36 points/factory at normal and reduced spending levels, for the same bonus.

Indeed I have maxed out on shipping unit points, but I wanted a few extra as a reserve in case war breaks out and a lot of my ships are sunk at the start as in the last one. Thanks for pointing out the points error I made there.

As to the factories I was going off an older model whereby we said something like each factory in peacetime contributes 1/3 of a point and 1 point in war time. But I think that this has subsequently been replaced by the system you mention where the build costs have been changed during different periods. I will go back and edit this in, though my points will remain unaffected as each old factory contributed 1/3 of a point which is the same as 1 new factory contributing 1 point.

Television, FM radio, AM radio, and personal computers are all results of commercial research and market forces. Although all have direct military applications (teleguided missiles and aircraft were used in World War II for example) they saw far more innovation because of free market competition.

The DC2 (and its successor the DC3) were the result of market demand for not only a better airliner, but also a private sector commerical prize for an aircraft capable of winning an air race from London to Melbourne. Some innovations are directly government invented however... such as the internet (designed as a means to keep communications going in the event of a nuclear war).

I am still figuring out how to represent this, but I have a few ideas I am kicking around. So far in the game I have simply used historical events and inventions, accelerated by a few years because of the long period of world tension between 1905 and 1926 that included 2 global wars. The US, UK, and Germany had a huge lead going into the century because they had huge industrial economies, and very large internal or external markets. The US invented the consumer economy during the 1920s historically, as well as nearly every kitchen and household appliance currently in your house (now very much refined and improved). These came about because of market forces, and the government intervention and subsidized research was minimal. However, the corporations spent a lot of money on research. Bell Labs, Westinghouse, GE, all spent a lot of money on research.

So its a tough one to factor in, and I am still pondering it. I think though that the size of your economy should be a generator for research. My suggestion, 1 free point of research for every 5 points your economy has at the normal (base line) level of production, 1 free point for every 10 during national effort (as less capital is available), and no free points during wartime level (as no capital is available). During reduced levels of spending, 2 points free research for every 5 points your economy has (a lot more money available).

So the US has a baseline of 125 in 1932, but has chosen reduced levels of spending. This gives the US 24 free points of research, which is appropriate as it was leading the world in a lot of areas of technology. This will also allow us to simulate the take off that Japan experienced in the 1970s as their economy grew and they spent very little on government spending, while the US spent huge amounts on military spending. (which allowed the Japanese to catch up with the US in nearly every current important area of technology except nuclear weapons by 1990, and arguably pass the US in some areas by 2000)
First of all, the numbers are off, unless I'm reading this wrong. If Reduced Spending yielded 2 free research points per 5 production points generated by the total economy, the US would have at least 50 free research points in 1932, not 24. And for the same year, the Soviets would have 40 points in general research assuming Normal Spending (and if we decentralized the economy it would be 80!). Now, this seems pretty generous to me. Though not necessarily unrealistic. I think it could safely be halved, but as long as we distinguish between the points spent on research and the points spent on education, I'm cool with this. This is my prosposed refinement and clarification:

During Peacetime, in order to advance a Tech Level, over ten full years a government must allocate 1 production point to education per 10 million citizens (minimum of 1) and 1 production point to general research per 10 million citizens. However, during Peacetime a given economy will generate 10-40% of its totals as "free" general research points, representing market-driven technological progress, which accordingly reduces the need for government funding and subsidization.

In the case of the United States, in order to advance a Tech Level, with a population of 125 million, they would ordinarily need to allocate 13 points to education and 13 points to general research. However, assuming their economy consists of 125 production points a year, and generates 20% of that (i.e., 25 points) for general research, the US doesn't need to allocate anything for research in order advance a Tech Level.

I don't think that education costs are likely to be eliminated, however. While private interests (and the market-socialist equivalents) will give endowments to institutes of higher learning, and even to primary schools, private funding will never be capable of completely replacing public funding as an effective educational model (and I say that as a historian as much as a socialist - for most of the span of human civilization education has been privately paid for, mostly by wealthy individuals and religious organizations, and for most of the span of human civilization, human education considered as a whole has been pretty lousy). In other words, if the US wanted to advance a Tech Level, they would still need to spend 13 points a year on education. Perhaps up to half of this could be defrayed by non-governmental supplementation, but I still think something would need to be spent. You oughtn't to be able to just coast to the top.

The short version:

In order to advance a Tech Level you have to spend 1 point per five million people for ten years. Your economy will generate free points that you can spend for (solely) this purpose, however. I would recommend 5%, 10%, or 20% of your economy at National Effort, Normal Spending, or Reduced Spending levels, respectively. Up to half (or perhaps three-quarters) of your technology costs can be eliminated by these free points, but an absolute minimum expenditure of 1 point per ten (or perhaps twenty) million people for ten years is required to advance a Tech Level. Any excess free points are simply wasted.

Regarding welfare:
Need should also factor in. The US for example has nearly 1 production point for every million people, which translates into low levels of poverty (comparatively) as that is a huge amount of wealth. China has roughly 15 points in 1932, 30 if you consider his plans. But that works out to 1 production point for every 32 million people. A far lower degree of wealth both absolutely and proportionally. Thats a lot of unemployment or people committed to subsistance agriculture. This one is also damned hard to simulate, so that too requires some thought. Incidently, a major factor in the US welfare system is that recognition that welfare also provides sufficient income for even the poorest to be consumers at least to some level. The consumer economy is absolutely critical to the US overall economy. So the US pays just enough welfare to ensure not only a basic level of subsistance, but also enough to allow for limited descretionary spending by everyone except the very poorest. Its pretty damned complex.
This raises some important issues. Until recently, for instance, private enterprise successfully fulfilled all welfare functions in Japan, simply because the widespread prosperity combined the feudal sense of mutual obligation between and employer and employee. The state itself spent virtually nothing on social services, but since social services weren't needed it wasn't a problem. However, "prosperity" by itself is probably insufficient to eliminate need. Look at the Industrial Revolution. In a wealthy economy, wealth itself can sometimes become too concentrated to do social good. Moreover, we'll want to keep things playable. I'll think more about this tomorrow.

Okay, to reiterate, production points derived from shipping and air transportation are not affected by spending levels. In other words, if you get 3 production points per year from your merchant marine, you get those 3 production points regardless of whether you've Cut Spending, implemented a National Effort, or shifted your economy to Total War.

I realize this is complicated, but it represents the fact that the only way to affect trade volume is to build more ships. Even that will only take you so far, because the world economy can only support so much trade. A maximum of 2 points per year can be produced by an economy from air transportation in 1932, and a maximum of 15 points per year can be produced by an economy from maritime shipping. Adding more planes or ships will not improve those maximums, nor are those maximums changed by a government's spending level.

This will alter your points pretty drastically past your first year of production - so, yes, you have to do it again.

I hope this is clear.

Otherwise, these numbers you are using:

are correct.

Vas, I really appreciate your patience with me as I try to figure out how this system works. I know I have posted like 100000 different builds so far, but hopefully I'm narrowing and fixing it up to a final build that everybody will have no problem with. I'm trying to get as many points as I can, not for war, but merely to maintain a constant education and welfare program for China. So far, China needs somewhere between 100 - 110 points for education, and the same amount of points for welfare (should come up to a total of 200 - 230 points, a quite hefty amount). On the other hand, the USA only needs 26 points for education and about the same for welfare. See the large discrepancy? See why China needs to massively industralize just to afford to maintain its civilian sector with any reasonable amount of efficiency.

At any rate, here's my revised build with Vas's fixes implemented...

1926:

Income: 78 points (War-time economy) + 0 points in reserve.

Expeditures:

2 Garrisons (4 points)
5 Fighters (10 points)
3 Factories (36 points)
4 HQ units (24 points)
Repairs to my Battleships (2 points)

Scrap my 6 Infantry Corps (and if I did build new infantry corps, convert them to garrisons so that I do not need to build the 2 new garrisons).

This should give me my standing army of 7 Garrisons, 5 HQ's, 6 Fighters, and my Navy repaired (as well as 3 shipping units I have). My HQ's should be finished mid-1927 at the latest, given that I started building 2 new ones in June / July after the war ended. However, my question is my 3 factories built in 1926 should have given me 16 industry points a turn by 1927 if the war did continue. However, with a peace-time economy starting in 1927...

16 points x 6 turns = 96 points. (Assuming war-time economy in 1927 which doesn't actually happen)

96 points divided by 3 for 1927 (revert to peace-time from war economy reduces points by 1/3)

Thus, I should have 32 points during peace-time for 1927. I'll implement this in my builds- if you have any objections, please do share. :)

1927: (Begin first National Effort program)

Income: 65 points + 0 points in reserve.

32 points from industry (64 points under National Effort)
1 point from 3 shipping units.

Expeditures:

21 Merchant Marine (63 points)
1 point in reserve.

1928:

Income: 76 points + 1 in reserve.

32 points from industry (64 points under National Effort).
12 points from 24 shipping units.

Expeditures:

5 Merchant Marine (15 points)
2 Factory (36 points)
2 Pilot units (4 points)
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

15 points in reserve.

1929:

Income: 89 points + 15 points in reserve.

36 points from factories (72 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

5 factories (90 points)

14 points in reserve.

1930:

Income: 109 points + 14 points in reserve.

46 points from factories (92 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

6 factories (108 points)

15 points in reserve.

1931: (Last year of first National Effort program)

Income: 133 points + 15 points in reserve.

58 points from factories (116 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

8 factories (144 points)

4 points in reserve.

1932: (Start of second- and probably final- National Effort program)

Income: 165 points + 4 points in reserve.

74 points from factories (148 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

9 factories (162 points).

7 points in reserve.

1933:

Income: 201 points + 7 points in reserve.

92 points from factories (184 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

11 factories (198 points)

10 points in reserve.

1934:

Income: 245 points + 10 points in reserve.

114 points from factories (228 points under National Effort).
15 points from 30 shipping units.
1 point from national airlines.
1 point from international airlines.

Expeditures:

Undecided.

---------------------------------------

Hopefully that should fix things. I did not double my points from shipping units and airlines. I'm going by 2 shipping units = 1 point, so 30 shipping units should be the max for point generation (although I do agree that extra shipping units over 30 wouldn't hurt for insurance purposes).

I multiplied the factories correctly so far, I believe. I added 2 points per factory (for peacetime points) then doubled the sum for my National Effort points (4 points per factory, not 2).

That aside, I have settled down on reducing my Chinese standing army to 7 garrisons, 6 fighter units, 5 HQ's, 2 Capital Counters, and 15 Light Ship Counters. Is that reasonable as well?

Once again, I need massive points just to maintain education and welfare (200 - 230 total) programs for my massive populace (530 million). I have 4 times as many people as the USA, 2.5 times as many people as Russia, and 8 to 10 times as many as most European nations. Therefore I need lots and lots more points than Russia, USA, or Europe just to sustain my population and maintain Westerner standards of living (progress Tech Levels, keep welfare going, domestic affairs, research, etc. along with the European nations and the USA).

Basically, I need A LOT (between 2.5 - 40 times) more effort, points, and industrialization to be of any halfway decent modern nation as opposed to, say, Belgium, Denmark, or Sweden.

Hope that clears things up somewhat.

Snip.
You've gotten the hang of it. That build looks right.

You've gotten the hang of it. That build looks right.

Thanks once again for being patient with me as I made these efforts to fix up my builds.

Do you have any recommendations for my builds 1934 onwards? I know I won't be building tanks or mechanized stuff because they'd be obsolete every 5 years, and it will end up costing more just to maintain these units than to build them fresh 5 or 10 years from now game-wise.

Anyways, I'm glad I finally got my build down pat! :)

Okay, the way it looks now, with me at normal spending, I have the "free" points in research to continue with my current builds. Consider them locked.

Build points will be split between maintaining improvements in the healthcare system, especially in inner city and extreme rural areas. In more wealthy areas, the government will give incentives to the taking up of private healthcare.

Industrial initiatives will be started to exploit the countries reserves of rubber, coffe andtimber mainly, though other avenues will be explored thoroughly. Private business will be given a much freer hand, though it will still be subject to thorough government inspections and minimum wage and working condition laws.

An extensive shipping fleet will be created with the aim of opening up trade fully with all countries of the world.

British industry will be accomodated fully.

The armed forces will be scaled down. Troops will still be recruited from the Ukraine into the International Brigade which will be amalgamated with the State Guard with the aim of creating an ultra loyal cadre of troops. The army will move from being a cumbersome force of troops to being a smaller force of mainly mechanised infantry. There will be no spending increases on the government, the money spent on modernisation will be culled from cutting excess regiments.

Zeppelin link with Germany will be cultivated with the aim of sponsoring tourism and trade via zeppelin and other air transport.

All official ties with the PRF will be cut, with the aim of encouraging fighters either to move elsewhere to fight, protest peacefully, or join the regular army and thus provide a stream of battle hardened recruits to stiffen the prowess of regular units.

To sum up, the three main aims of this government are:

Stabilise and expand the economy, mainly by sea trade and encouraging industry.

Cut military strength and spending, with the ultimate aim of modernising the armed forces.

Create a streamlined and effective public healthcare initiative, while still supporting private healthcare.


ooc: havn't the faintest idea about the technical implications of this but you get the gist of it. posted it in my news thread as well.

Hi Since Vietnam gained independance in 1926 but it now seems to have fast forwarded to 1932 can I say what Vietnam was doing in those six intervening years? or do I have to start from the present?

Hi Since Vietnam gained independance in 1926 but it now seems to have fast forwarded to 1932 can I say what Vietnam was doing in those six intervening years? or do I have to start from the present?
You can start from 1927. You don't have a lot of spending capital by the system we're using - 2 points per year at Normal Spending, as I recall. A National Effort would double that, but it would still take you four and a half years at maximum reinvestment to increase your industrial base from 2 points (Normal, 4 National Effort points) to 4 points (Normal, 8 National Effort points).

In other words, if you mandated an industrialization program in 1927, your entire economy would be dedicated to reinvestment for four full years, and then for the year of 1931 you'd have six points available to spend on other things, or to reinvest again.

Once we've hammered out the points system and resumed normal play, you'll probably want to court foreign investment.

Since you brought up foriegn investment....

Attention all underdeveloped nations!

Because of a surplus of points available to me from 1935 onward (17 in 1935, lots more in later years), I have nothing to do with my points. Spiffy military projects? Been there, done that. Research? I could do that, but then still have points left over. Therefore, I feel it is time to invest overseas. Are you a poor nation that gets a piddly 2 points a year? Do you just not want to wait to industrialize? Well, send me a telegram saying what you can offer me if I send you some of my points (alliance, etc.), and let's see what we can get worked out.

1935 is still a few years away. I was planning on starting foreign investment myself in 1933. The Americans will probably start sooner.

You might want to build up your military.

Ok I think I will do what you suggested

I will begin a national effort in 1927 and reinvest all points into increasing my industrial base. And then for the years 1931 and 1932 I will set aside two points for education and four points to back into building up industry.

Does that sound like a good plan?

Ok I think I will do what you suggested

I will begin a national effort in 1927 and reinvest all points into increasing my industrial base. And then for the years 1931 and 1932 I will set aside two points for education and four points to back into building up industry.

Does that sound like a good plan?
Yes.

OOC: Did you see my TG vas?

On topic: What year and date will it be when we start again? Someone said 1933, but i was under the impression of jan. 1932, and only have build plans until then :(

We'll start in 1932. I was going to change over the year yesterday, but we still need to hammer out a couple of things in the economic system, notably research and social services, before people can really set budgets for then.

I will therefore be changing over the year on Monday, which is to say, tomorrow, and we will resume normal time, which is to say one year per week.

And yes, I took a look at your builds, and it looks about right. I think your economy is too small at this point in time to generate free research points, but Soviet foreign aid will start going out in 1933 at the latest (or '32 if education and welfare turn out cheaper than I expect). Yugoslavia is pretty high on the list of projected recipients. I'll be publishing that list soon.

1927 - 7 + 4 for two factories built in 1926; points increased to 22 for national effort
4 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 12p total)
7 Points to Venezuela
3 Points to Reserve

1928 - 11 x 2 (National Effort) = 22 + 2 (MM) + 3 = 27p
6 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 18p total)
7 Points to Venezuela
1 Point to Reserve

1929 - 11 x 2 (National Effort) = 22 + 5 (MM) + 1 + 3 from Venezuela = 31p
10 Pilots x 2p = 20p
7 Points to Venezuela
4 Points to Reserve

1930 - 14 x 2 (National Effort) = 28 + 5 (MM) + 4 = 37p
2 Airtransports = 8p (1 International, 1 Domestic)
20p to Healthcare improvements
9p to Reserve

1931 - 14 x 2 (National Effort) = 28 + 5 (MM) + 9 + 2 (Airlines) = 44
1 Factory = 24p
6 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 18p total)
2 points to reserve

1932 - 16 x 2 (National Effort; Final Year) = 32 + 8 (MM) + 2 + 2 = 44
14 x Merchant Marine = 42p
2 Points to Reserve

1933 - 16 + 15 + 2 + 2 = 35
12p - Research: Advanced Fighters
2 x Garrison Units = 6p
17 Points to Reserve

1934 - 16 + 15 + 2 + 17 = 50
Factory - 38p
12 p to Reserve

1935 - 18 + 15 + 2 + 12 = 47
Factory - 38p
12p to Reserve

1936 - 20 + 15 + 2 + 12 = 49
Factory - 38p
11p to Upgrading all Fighters

1937 - 22 + 15 + 2 = 39
Factory - 38p
1 point to Reserve

1938 - 24 + 15 + 2 = 41
15p Refit and Reorganize Ground Forces (Retrain essentially)
8p for two new fighters
2 x Garrison = 6p
12 p to Reserve (total of 13p reserve end of 1938)

Colombian & Venezuelan Military as of 1938

Army
1 x Mechanized Corp (Bogota)
1 x Alpine Corp (Cali)
1 x Infantry Corp (Caracas)
1 x Garrison (Bogota)
1 x Garrison (Caracas)
1 x Garrison (Panama)
1 x Garrison (Cayenne)

Airforce
2 x Airtransports (Airline Service)
8 x Fighters (4 in Colombia, 2 in Venezuela, 1 in Panama, 1 in Cayenne)
10 x Pilots

Navy
1 x Battlecruiser
4 x Heavy Cruiser
20 x Destroyers
4 x Submarines


ooc: Does that look ok? I didn't add in any growth... could someone do that for me?

Isn't that more factories than your population would allow(don't know how much venesuela adds)? And is it possible to research advanced fighters at tech level 5? What is an advanced fighter btw? lol

I see... I have no idea whats going on. Also, did you include pop for Panama?

The US doesn't believe in 5 year plans....

US Builds 1926 - 1933 corrected .

US Spending 1926 – 31
Available 1926
Wartime levels 40 points a turn (2 month turns)
3 months remain, 120 points left for 1927

The US completed radar in early 1926 (already paid for),
UK provides Strategic Bombing
7 points to complete 2 carrier units (4 Enterprise class tech level 6 carriers)
12 points to complete tactical voice radio, chemical warfare (nerve gas)
12 points to complete flak and coast defense artillery for Truk, Manila, Pearl Harbor, Panama,
6 points to finish Algerian army (3 garrison units)
12 points to finish repairing Madrid and upgrading Spanish railroads (2 production centers)(rebuilding of Spain completed)
12 points to repair Paris (3 factories)
12 points to repair Marseilles (2 factories)
12 points to repair Brussels (2 factories)
12 points to repair Liege (2 factories)
12 points to repair Metz (2 factories)
12 points to repair Venice (partially)
(at end of year Paris, Nantes and Brest are repaired, leaving only Toulouse, Marseille, Lille), Italy and Belgium are fully repaired,

1927
US reduces to national effort (to avoid a recession) spending 120 a year
10 points for shipping (20 shipping units) plus 110 points for factories
36 points to repair Marseilles, Toulouse, Lille (at end of year repairs to France completed)
12 points to repair remainder of Burgundy
4 points to Napalm,
10 points modernize 4 battleship units, 1 carrier unit
48 points build 2 factories
natural growth 3% (2 points)

1928
US cuts spending to peacetime levels
68points factories plus 10 points shipping
4% growth (- 1% for postwar recession) to 3% (+ 3 points for 1929)
build 10 shipping units (30 points)
finish Napalm (5 points)
8 points for television
24 free research points (basic science and medical) (result is blood typing, and physics advances)

1929
US continues peacetime spending
74 points for production plus 15 points for shipping
4% growth (+3 points)
build 5 shipping units (20 points)
15 points for 1.5 liner units
24 free research points (medical)(anti malarial drugs, DDT)
1 factory (36 points)
3 points to television research

1930
US remains at peacetime spending level
78 points production plus 15 points for shipping (with considerable slack)
growth +4% (+5 points)
build 2 factories (72 points)
finish 1 liner unit (5 points)
1 point to finish television
24 free research points (direct dial long distance telephone, oil to rubber)

1931
US remains at the peacetime spending level
85 points production plus 15 points for shipping
growth 4% (+4 points)
build 2 factories (72 points)
research sulfa drugs (12 points)
start research antibiotics (1 point)
24 points free research (oil to plastics, improved oil exploration)

1932
US retains peacetime spending
92 points production plus 15 points for shipping
growth rate 4% (4 points)
build domestic airline (3 points for 2 engined transport DC3, 2 points for pilot)
build international airline (4 points for 4 engined flying boats, 2 points for pilot)
replace 10 obsolete fighters (P26 with P36)(20 points)
build 4 tech level 6 light ship (40 destroyers), 1 tech level 6 submarine unit (10 submarines) (40 points)
2 tech level 6 light cruisers (12 points)(Atlanta , Juneau)
build 1 heavy bomber unit (B17A)(4 points)
repace 10 carrier aircraft with 5 Buffalos, 2 Devastator, 3 Vindicator (20 points)
24 free research points (improved railroad locomotives steam to diesel, pressurized aircraft)

1933
US remains at peacetime spending level
96 points production plus 2 for airlines, 13 for shipping (with considerable slack available)
4% growth (4 points)
replace 5 naval air units (various with PBY)(15 points)
replace 8 obsolete bombers (A12 Shrike with A20 Boston) (24 points)
replace 2 obsolete transports (Ford Trimotor to DC3)(6 points)
finish 3 heavy cruisers (18 points)
start 2 battleships (improved North Carolina class)(12 points)
build 1 light ship (10 destroyers)(8 points)
3 submarine units (30 submarines)(24 points)
start 1 Fleet Carrier (Ranger)(4 points)
24 free research points (finish antibiotics, analog computers)

USA is 10 years from Tech level 7 (needs some more research),
Union, UK are 12 years away from Tech level 7
everyone else is even further back

Good catch. I just added 3,400,000 people to Colombia for Venezuela, but they will only become available in 1932. Even so, Gran Colombia's productivity cap for industry should be 6 prior to the merger, then 10 thereafter. Colombia starts out with 11, which is already in excess, so we can consider him grandfathered, but he shouldn't be able to build any more.

Possession of the Canal Zone might yield some income, as might oil fields. But this should be discussed.

Panama Canal should be worth 1 build point, as should the Suez (which would already be included in Egypts production value)

A quick question for Galveston Bay.

I was wondering if China will be Tech Level 6 by 1934 - 1936, seeing that Galveston Bay said I could build Yamato class battleships by around that time and he made it clear that the Yamato battleships are Tech Level 6.

Then if that does come to pass (Tech Level 6) then I can focus on reaching Tech Level 7 by 1950 (around that time).

However, I do have one concern though. What's to stop nations from being Tech level 10+ by 2000? In all honesty, if we maintain a 1 tech level per 10 years, then that means Tech level 13 by 2000 (Tech Level 7 in the 1940's then 60 years = 6 tech levels). Tech Level 13 would mean 2100+ AD tech which is quite unrealistic for 2000 AD as Tech Level 9 is 2010+ AD tech.

What I propose is that each subsquent Tech Level requires MORE research / years to advance. For example, tech Level 7 takes 15 years to advance to, which means 1950 at the earliest. Then Tech level 8 = 20 years to advance (which should put it at 1970). Tech Level 9 = 30 years to advance (should be 2000 - 2010), and so on.

Also, I've been wondering- this may make the game a little bit more interesting. What system could be implemented to allow backwards nations to catch up with current technology levels? IIRC, there are still some Tech 2 and Tech 3 nations in the 1930's. They will have no chance to catch up to European tech levels because by the time these Tech 2 - 3 nations reach Tech level 6, everybody else will be Tech level 8 - 9.

Another point is that there are ways in RL for nations to catch up in technology. Suppose a Tech 6 nation wants to help out an ally who is Tech level 4. The Tech 6 nation can share all blueprints and the "know-how" to build Tech 6 stuff with the low tech nation, giving it the ability to catch up. Take a gun for example- we could make a blueprint for a 1800's musket gun then give it to the Ancient Romans of 50 BC - 50 AD (written in their language of course). The Romans may be able to learn *how* to build the muskets, and learn how to understand how these guns work with gunpowder and such. Another example would be the US or USSR providing tech and know-how to their "client-states" during the Cold War, like weapons or electronics or the like.

I just wanted to put up these issues and ideas, and see what can be done to address or resolve them.

Revised Builds Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9956460&postcount=96)

Any Remark??

ooc: Revised... hope its ok.. this is based on the idea that I can't built any more factories..

1927 - 7 + 4 for two factories built in 1926; Points increased to 22 for national effort.
5 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 15p total)
7 Points to Venezuela

1928 - 11 (22 under national effort) + 2 (MM) = 24p
5 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 15p total)
7 points to Venezuela
2 Points to Reserve

1929 - 11 (22 under national effort) + 5 (MM) + 1 (Of two Reserve Points)
7 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 21p total)
7 Points to Venezuela

1930 - 22 industry (national effort) + 8 points from 17 MM = 30 points
10 x Merchant Marine (3p each; 30p total)

1931 - 22 (national effort) + 13p (mm) + 1 (R) = 35p
3 x Merchant Marine (9p)
1 x International Airline (4p)
1 x National Airline (3p)
2 x Pilots (8p)
2 Points to Education (Tech Level Jump)
4 x Garrisons (8p)
2 x Fighters (6p)

1932 11 + 17 = 28p
2 Points to Education
8 x Pilots (16p)
Research: Advanced Fighters (12p)

1933 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2 Points to Education
20 Points to Healthcare
6 Points to Welfare

1934 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2 Points to Education
12 Points to Medical Research
14 Points to Healthcare

1935 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2p to Education
Replace 6 obsolete fighters - 12p
4 x Merchant Marine = 12p
2 Points to Reserve

1936 - 11 + 17 + 2 = 30p
2p to Education
Retrain 1 Infantry Corp, 1 Alpine Corp, and 1 Mechanized Corp = 6p
23p to Infrastructure

1937 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2p to Education
26p to Infrastructure

USA is 10 years from Tech level 7 (needs some more research),
Union, UK are 12 years away from Tech level 7
everyone else is even further back
That can't be right - the US hasn't spent a dime on education, only on research. I don't think the market can fully cover both, and without equivalent education, research shouldn't be effective.

Also, it seems way too early for television and analog computers, and medical science is probably not as advanced as in RL, either.

What I propose is that each subsquent Tech Level requires MORE research / years to advance. For example, tech Level 7 takes 15 years to advance to, which means 1950 at the earliest. Then Tech level 8 = 20 years to advance (which should put it at 1970). Tech Level 9 = 30 years to advance (should be 2000 - 2010), and so on.

Realistically, it sould probably cost less the higher you go - technological progress bootstraps, after all.

We are looking a little too advanced right now, however (see my previous post), and that ought to be addressed.

replace 10 obsolete fighters (P26 with P36)(20 points)

Finally, there's the question of obsolescence. I don't know when or how often I'm supposed to be buying new military equipment, and I'm damned if I'm going to waste my life researching all the models of equipment used by the Soviets and Germans and selecting the very best designs and integrating them into the Red Army tactical doctrine (no offense about "wasting your life" - if that's your bag, go for it, but I can't stand doing that kind of thing).

That's actually what Parthini is supposed to do. But . . .

That can't be right - the US hasn't spent a dime on education, only on research. I don't think the market can fully cover both, and without equivalent education, research shouldn't be effective.

Also, it seems way too early for television and analog computers, and medical science is probably not as advanced as in RL, either.

still working on those rules, and I think I sent you a TG on that. But could be mistaken

Television was demonstrated at the 1939 Worlds Fair, Analog computers are not electronic, and were used by US firecontrol systems aboard warships beginning mid 1930s. Blood typing came about during the London Blitz. As we had a nasty war recently, it would have accelerated a bit, as would all of the other medical advances, and all were really joint US/British innovations (building on each others research).

Malaria would have been a high priority too, because of the fighting in India and Burma.

Remember, in the US, prior to Sputnik, nearly all education monies were local and state, and the US has plenty of slack in its spending for that to have easily been covered.

incidently, tech level 7 is marked by supersonic jet aircraft, electronic (as in radio tubes and massive computer banks) computers, hydrogen bombs and fission reactors, jet airliners and we are a while from that yet.

As to looking up your aircraft, figure every couple of years your aircraft become obsolescent at this tech level. Aviation technology is moving fast.

I feel we're getting somewhat too unrealistic in technology and advancements.

First, we agreed that due to world war 2 (1924 - 1926), our technology was accelerated to 1930's technology. Then after the war and recovery period, technology stangated- so we should hit 1940's tech when we reach 1935 or so.

Second, if we advance tech every 10 years, it's going to be extremely lopsided, unrealistic, and utterly wrong. It's because we'll be tech level 12 or 13 by the year 2000, which means nanotechnology, faster than light travel, or 2100+ AD technology, considering that tech level 9 is 2010 era tech.

Thus, I propose a cap on how quickly technology can advance. Here's what I propose.

Tech Level 7 cannot be achieved until 1950 at the earliest.
Tech Level 8 cannot be achieved until 1970 at the earliest.
Tech level 9 cannot be achieved until 2000 at the earliest.

And so forth. Basically, tech levels cannot be achieved more than 10 years earlier than their eras represent (Tech 7 = 1960 era, Tech 8 = 1980 era, Tech 9 = 2010 era, Tech 10 = probably 2050 era, and so on).

---------------------------

This also solves the problem of nations lagging behind in technology. For example, the US can't reach Tech Level 7 until 1950, which allows other nations to catch up. they can keep doing the "Advance Tech Level in 10 years with Education" thing.

USA = Tech Level 7 in 1950. (At the maximum tech advancement cap)
Nation X = Tech Level 5 in 1930.
Nation Y = Tech Level 6 in 1937.

Nation X can do education program for 10 years each, so that Nation X reaches Tech Level 6 in 1940, then Tech Level 7 in 1950.

Nation Y can reach Tech Level 7 by 1950 (they could reach it by 1947, but the cap is set at 1950 so they won't advance until 1950).

Then we can still have the technologically superior nations through these research efforts. Nations like the Union or the USA can do a lot of research projects, which gives them more bonuses than nations like the UK or France who have less production points to contribute towards research. For example, between 1930 - 1940, the USA can research maybe 20 - 25 Tech Level 6 technologies, whereas France could do maybe 10. This means the USA can enjoy more "bonuses" like increased military firepower, better medicine, etc. than France.

However, there still stands the possibility of technology sharing- suppose the USA and France were allies (hypothetically), then the US can share its 20 - 25 tech researches with France, thus, bringing France the same bonuses as the USA, while preserving the tech cap of Level 7 at 1950, Level 8 at 1970, and so on.

-------------------------------

Hope I made sense. I really don't want E20 to end up as "OMG! FTL Spaceships by 2000! OMG! Nanotechnology by 1990!" kind of crap.

being as i've never used this point system someone please explain to me where I go wrong and answer me some questions, k, I have a pop of 3m according to the frontpage, so if I wanted to educate my people do i like spend .3333333r on education or one point on educating them three times? Another thing, do I get back points from 1926 or is it assumed that the NPC spent them on things? Help me out here.

I don't really see the problem with having our technology 10+ years ahead of real life. I think it would be neat to have my laptop available in 1989, with a colony on the moon or something. Perhaps curing cancer by 1995, and the internet by '79. With all of these quick, brutal World Wars have become a sort of repeat of the past two centuries, just multiplied A LOT, and with much better technology. As I said, I want to have space battles. I'm down with no nukes, but screw the peaceful space crap. E20 isn't going to be some ridiculous super jump. We are just altering history, and in doing that, a lot of technology is arriving faster. I'm assuming that at 1932, were at '36-'37 tech, and I personally think that's cool. I also really doubt that we would get to 2100 tech. By 2000 I could see potential 2020 Tech, but I do think you are exaggerating stuff at least a little.

A quick question for Galveston Bay.

I was wondering if China will be Tech Level 6 by 1934 - 1936, seeing that Galveston Bay said I could build Yamato class battleships by around that time and he made it clear that the Yamato battleships are Tech Level 6.

Then if that does come to pass (Tech Level 6) then I can focus on reaching Tech Level 7 by 1950 (around that time)..

tech level advancement happens quicker during major wars (that urgency factor comes in). China will indeed be tech level 6 by 1935. However, it takes roughly 15 - 25 years to advance... the US was tech level 5 in 1904, and reached tech level 6 in 1920. Partly its major advance so quickly, along with the British, Germans and Western Europeans, was that for various reasons tech level actually did accelerate that quickly. In the real world, the Western Europeans and Americans were at tech level 5 at 1905 - 10. They reached tech level 6 right around 1940. But they only fought one major war during that time and we have had 2 already. Next war will definitely see an acceleration to tech level 7, if its a global one. However the next war will almost certainly be fought to a finish as it will take more to start one and the internal political stakes will be higher. Based on the historical model, the US will reach tech level 7 25 years after reaching tech level 6 (1920 - 1945), which is 5 years ahead of schedule. It will take another 30 years to reach tech level 8 (historically 1950 - 80) as the prerequisites for tech level 8 are digital microprocessor computers, relatively reliable satellites, and the internet (as it was invented in the early 1980s to allow for communications during a thermonuclear war).


However, I do have one concern though. What's to stop nations from being Tech level 10+ by 2000? In all honesty, if we maintain a 1 tech level per 10 years, then that means Tech level 13 by 2000 (Tech Level 7 in the 1940's then 60 years = 6 tech levels). Tech Level 13 would mean 2100+ AD tech which is quite unrealistic for 2000 AD as Tech Level 9 is 2010+ AD tech.

What I propose is that each subsquent Tech Level requires MORE research / years to advance. For example, tech Level 7 takes 15 years to advance to, which means 1950 at the earliest. Then Tech level 8 = 20 years to advance (which should put it at 1970). Tech Level 9 = 30 years to advance (should be 2000 - 2010), and so on. .

see above


Also, I've been wondering- this may make the game a little bit more interesting. What system could be implemented to allow backwards nations to catch up with current technology levels? IIRC, there are still some Tech 2 and Tech 3 nations in the 1930's. They will have no chance to catch up to European tech levels because by the time these Tech 2 - 3 nations reach Tech level 6, everybody else will be Tech level 8 - 9.

Another point is that there are ways in RL for nations to catch up in technology. Suppose a Tech 6 nation wants to help out an ally who is Tech level 4. The Tech 6 nation can share all blueprints and the "know-how" to build Tech 6 stuff with the low tech nation, giving it the ability to catch up. Take a gun for example- we could make a blueprint for a 1800's musket gun then give it to the Ancient Romans of 50 BC - 50 AD (written in their language of course). The Romans may be able to learn *how* to build the muskets, and learn how to understand how these guns work with gunpowder and such. Another example would be the US or USSR providing tech and know-how to their "client-states" during the Cold War, like weapons or electronics or the like.

I just wanted to put up these issues and ideas, and see what can be done to address or resolve them.

that is a tough one, and really, it would require substantial investment from outsiders to work. Important to remember though that during the Cold War and even today, just because a US or Soviet client state was using high tech weapons like SAMs, Jet fighters and main battle tanks does not mean they were the same tech level as their sponsor. They had to have the capability to build them and they simply didn't.

However, at higher tech levels (8 and 9), it is possible to by pass the Industrial Revolution and move directly to the Information Age. China, India, and Israel are excellent examples of how that happens. They can build software, smart weapons, digital networks and even launch satellites, and have not had to develop the massive industrial infrastructure required for the Industral Revolution.

Which means that possibly, with enough investment, they will indeed catch up.

Right, I forgot about free research points. I believe that they are 1 point for every 5 base points in normal expenditure and 2 for every 5 baseline points in reduced expenditure. If so British research etc stands as follows:

----------------------------------------------

1926 UK (July, August, September-October, November-December turns):
42 points (reduced to normal economy):

2 points to finish strategic bombing research
3 points to finish 1 HQ
6 points to finish 3 UK 8 point mechanized corps
9 points to finish 3 UK bomber units
2 points to build 1 fighter unit
10 points: Tech 6 Battleship attack 4, protection 7, speed 4, range 5 Cost 10 build time 4 years (14 inch guns)
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
1 shipping unit 3 points

--------------------------------------------------

1927 UK (standard production, 2% growth (down to 1% due to war)):
42 points:

2 points to upgrade reserve motorised corps to mechanised
22 points to start NHS
2 points to upgrade 1 bomber unit from Heyfords to Hampdens and 1 fighter from Demons to Hurricanes.
8 points 2x Tech 6 submarine units (20 submarines total), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5, 4 points, 1 year
Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, Cost 8, build time 3 years (80 – 100 aircraft)

RESEARCH: 8 free points to go into Antibiotic development (particularly sulfacetamide and sufamethizol)

------------------------------------------------------

1928 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth, down to 4% due to war):
21 points (inc 2% growth from last year):
Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
3 points for 1 bomber unit (Hampdens)
2 points for 1 pilot unit
4 points of further investment in NHS

RESEARCH: 16 points available, 4 to finish antibiotics (I presume it's still 12 points per research item) and 12 to begin and finish anti-malaria research, ie. to link it to mosquitos and to introduce Quinacrine, chloroquine, and primaquine.

---------------------------------------------------------

1929 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
22 points (inc 5% growth)

3 points into NHS
12 points for 1 factory
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

RESEARCH: 16 points available, 12 to research advanced RADAR 4 points to begin spectrophotometry and the development of the first reliable spectrophotometer (a success here will advance understanding of Physics and also speed up manufacturing processes)

-------------------------------------------------------------

1930 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
25 points (inc. 5% growth)

4xFlak artillery attack strength 1, defense strength 3 (doubled against aircraft), cost 2 points, 2 turns.

1xCoast artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 0 Defense 5,

2xFortifications (permanent, doubles defense strength all defending units, destroyed if captured) 2 points, 2 turns

begin 1 factory 12 points

RESEARCH: 16 free points: 8 to finish Spectrophotometry, 8 to begin millimeter RADAR research.

---------------------------------------------------------------

1931 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
26 points (inc 5% growth)

1xTech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (can trade) Cost 12 build time 5 years (16 inch guns)
add to one factory 14 points (now 26/30 complete)

RESEARCH: 16 points: 4 to finish millimeter RADARand 12 to conduct TV research

------------------------------------------------------

1932 builds (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
29 points (inc 5% growth, 3 factories)

10 points to finish 1 factory
3 points for 1 airborne corps
10 points to upgrade all bombers and fighters with millimeter RADAR (5 bombers and 5 fighters)
6 points to begin construction of advanced RADAR detection system on South and East coasts, ustilising latest advances in RADAR technology.

RESEARCH: 16 points: 12 to study Jet Engines and 4 to go towards blood research (including diseases carried in blood etc.)

---------------------------------------------------

1933 builds (half economy, 5% growth)
30 points

4 points to upgrade 2 bomber units to Bristol Blenheims
4 points to upgrade remaining 2 fighter units to Hawker Hurricanes
4 points for 1 air transport unit (double engined)
6 points for 3 pilot units
6 points to finish advanced RADAR detection system.
6 points to upgrade naval torpedo bombers to Fairey Swordfish

RESEARCH: 16 points: 8 to finish blood research and 12 to conduct oil exploration research.

Whew- thanks GB. You helped put my mind to ease. I just didn't want to have a run-away tech'ing up race going on. Hopefully we can keep this tech stuff in moderation, and make sure that no "OMG! Nanotechnology by 1990!" stuff happens.

I do agree that there can be a slight tech lead in our timeline as opposed to RL- hence me agreeing that tech levels can be achieved around 10 years before they happened in RL (like having 1960's RL tech in 1950's here in E20 for instance) but not *too* extreme like having laptops, internet, or lasers in 1960 instead of the 1980's - 1990's.

Hence my proposed caps on tech levels in respect to the year / decade such as tech level 7 can be reached no earlier than 1950 and tech level 8 can't be achieved until 1970, and so on.

What do you think, GB?

Whew- thanks GB. You helped put my mind to ease. I just didn't want to have a run-away tech'ing up race going on. Hopefully we can keep this tech stuff in moderation, and make sure that no "OMG! Nanotechnology by 1990!" stuff happens.

I do agree that there can be a slight tech lead in our timeline as opposed to RL- hence me agreeing that tech levels can be achieved around 10 years before they happened in RL (like having 1960's RL tech in 1950's here in E20 for instance) but not *too* extreme like having laptops, internet, or lasers in 1960 instead of the 1980's - 1990's.

Hence my proposed caps on tech levels in respect to the year / decade such as tech level 7 can be reached no earlier than 1950 and tech level 8 can't be achieved until 1970, and so on.

What do you think, GB?

that is perfectly acceptable to me

Algeria's National Plan:

Phase 1:First National Effort
1926:
3 to building a factory(3)
1 to compensate for land reform

1927
3 to building a factory(6)
1 to compensate for land reform

1928
3 to building a factory(9)
1 for education (I have about 5 million people)


1929
3 to building a factory(12)
1 for education

1930
3 to building a factory(15)
1 for education

1931:
3 to building a factory(18)
1 for education
Phase 1 Ends

1932: (Breather\Cut Government Spending)
Factory Complete +1
1 for education
1 for shipping

1933: Phase2 :Second National Effort
2/3 shipping unit complete
4 to building a factory(4)
1 for education
2 on railroad and infrastructure
1 on shipping

1934
1 and 1/3 shipping complete
4 to building a factory(8)
1 for Education
1 on shipping
2 on infantry

1935
2 shipping complete +1
4 to building a factory(12)
2 on infantry
2 on field artillary
1 on education

1936
6 to building a factory(18)
2 on field artillary
1 on education

1937
Factory Complete + 4 point total=12
12 on factory
1 on education

1938
6 on factory
3 on infrastructure
3 on shipping
1 on education

end of national effort (return to normal)

natural growth at the end of 1939 = 0.88 points


so by 1939 1 more factory should be completed +2 shipping units

1926 - 1931 spending is not needed, as that has already been handled for the period while Algeria was an NPC nation. Besides, in peacetime, a factory costs either 18 points (national effort) or 36 points (peacetime spending).

being as i've never used this point system someone please explain to me where I go wrong and answer me some questions, k, I have a pop of 3m according to the frontpage, so if I wanted to educate my people do i like spend .3333333r on education or one point on educating them three times? Another thing, do I get back points from 1926 or is it assumed that the NPC spent them on things? Help me out here.

/Me waves

*scratches head*

Err, I'm a bit confused as to how this system works. Do I just assign points to development? If so, what exactly do I apply them to?

*scratches head*

Err, I'm a bit confused as to how this system works. Do I just assign points to development? If so, what exactly do I apply them to?

Accelerating tech levels
Education 1 point per 10 million people (yes, that is a lot)
plus
must have at least 1 build point available for 10 million people (surplus industrial capacity available for research) that has not been spent on anything else. (yes, thats a lot too)
plus 10 years of spending at this level.

the spare points aren't applied to anything really, they are industrial / resource slack available for other uses, and thus improve the overall economy.

/Me waves

you only have to dedicate points for education if you are trying to accelerate your tech level. see above post

you only have to dedicate points for education if you are trying to accelerate your tech level. see above post

i'm not trying to expand my tech level persay, it's just I can't think of anything else to spend my points on, okay I think I can work that one out now, next question, do I have my points stockpiled from previous years sinse the Point systems indrduction or do I assume that the NPC spent them all?

Have the research topics been posted for tech lv 6?

Have the research topics been posted for tech lv 6?

available military ones are in the main rules, while a lot of civilian choices are available if you look at the US and Union posts.

I am not going to give you game effects for choices, as you simply wouldn't know how they would benefit you until the time comes. Some should be able to be extropolated though.

Ahhh, I see.

So I would need 350 points of education, 350 build points, and 10 years of spending at this level? Oh dear.

Can I raise the amount of points I get? So that I get more than 8?

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9938191&postcount=41)

This is to factor in the "free" research points that GB says we get. It is an adedum to the above post.

By the way, I was out of town all weekend looking at various colleges. Sorry I didn't get a chance to tell you.

Research, 1927

2 Points "free"

2 P0ints-Improved RADAR

Research, 1928

3 points "free" + 3 free points

6 points-Improved RADAR (9 total)

Research, 1929

3 points "free" + 3 spare points

3 points-Improved RADAR (Finished)

3 Points-Antibiotics

Research, 1930

4 "free" points + 4 spare points

5 points-antibiotics (8 total)

3 points-Advanced Physics

Research, 1931

4 points "free" +1 spare point

4 points-Antibiotics (Finished)

1 point-Advanced Physics (4 points total)

Research, 1932

4 points "free"

4 points-Advanced Physics (8 points total)

Ahhh, I see.

So I would need 350 points of education, 350 build points, and 10 years of spending at this level? Oh dear.

Can I raise the amount of points I get? So that I get more than 8?

not easily but eventually you can... large nations with large populations that start at low tech level are at a huge disadvantage because they have so many rural poor. A regretable fact.

not easily but eventually you can... large nations with large populations that start at low tech level are at a huge disadvantage because they have so many rural poor. A regretable fact.

Errr, since I'm kinda new at this, could you suggest some things for me to do with my points?

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9938191&postcount=41)

This is to factor in the "free" research points that GB says we get. It is an adedum to the above post.

By the way, I was out of town all weekend looking at various colleges. Sorry I didn't get a chance to tell you.

Research, 1927

2 Points "free"

2 P0ints-Improved RADAR

Research, 1928

3 points "free" + 3 free points

6 points-Improved RADAR (9 total)

Research, 1929

3 points "free" + 3 spare points

3 points-Improved RADAR (Finished)

3 Points-Antibiotics

Research, 1930

4 "free" points + 4 spare points

5 points-antibiotics (8 total)

3 points-Long-range rockets

Research, 1931

4 points "free" +1 spare point

4 points-Antibiotics (Finished)

1 point-Long-Range Rockets (4 points total)

Research, 1932

4 points "free"

4 points-Long-Range Rockets (8 points total)

hmm, I had meant for the bonus research points to be restricted to civilian applications, but didn't make that clear.

Rocket research is something I have to consider, it may be twice as expensive. Basic rockets gets you where Goddard was, long range gets you a V2, and thats a bit early. I think you should have advanced physics first, then alternative fuels, then basic rockets, then long ranged rockets. You have to have proximity shell technology to build a SAM.

Radar gets you large and bulky air search radar (Freya and Chain Home type). Advanced radar gets you surface search and air search radar small enough to fit on most warships. Millimeter radar gives you airborne radar and eventually proximity shells (both of which require their own research) and surface search radar actually effective enough to locate a submarine operating on the surface. Advanced radar also gets you gunnery radar, useful for both flak and warships (which also requires research into gunnery radar).

available military ones are in the main rules, while a lot of civilian choices are available if you look at the US and Union posts.

I am not going to give you game effects for choices, as you simply wouldn't know how they would benefit you until the time comes. Some should be able to be extropolated though.

Kinda feel like an idiot, but can you link me to the post, I can't seem to find em.

still working on those rules, and I think I sent you a TG on that. But could be mistaken

Television was demonstrated at the 1939 Worlds Fair, Analog computers are not electronic, and were used by US firecontrol systems aboard warships beginning mid 1930s. Blood typing came about during the London Blitz. As we had a nasty war recently, it would have accelerated a bit, as would all of the other medical advances, and all were really joint US/British innovations (building on each others research).

Malaria would have been a high priority too, because of the fighting in India and Burma.

Remember, in the US, prior to Sputnik, nearly all education monies were local and state, and the US has plenty of slack in its spending for that to have easily been covered.
Didn't recieve any telegrams recently.

As for the distinction between federal and state spending, I don't really think that ought to be differentiated - you're claiming the benefits of both an integrated economy and a fragmented one, and I don't think that's really how it should work. I would rather assume that all our points represent some kind of government spending, regardless of the level at which it's spent.

Technically, in my version of the Soviet Union, the actual "government" budget is minuscule. The soviets are a parallel administration to the state, not really part of it. The government's expenditures are on military and public works and education, and that's it, while the soviets are responsible for the rest of the economy (the distinction will become clearer as I fill out my thread).

I don't personally think there was enough fighting in malarial zones to justify the expense, but I won't fight it. Blood typing I could see happening in Italy, I suppose.

I guess the Union will to start researching computers and malarial cures, now, too. Ah, well. We should be ahead of you in rockets. We got Tsiolkovsky, and von Braun. I'll start in on the helicopters, too, I guess . . .

Thanks GB. Edited.

I have another question.

I'm not sure what gives with education for tech catch-up. China has 530 million people, which means I need 53 points for education and 53 for domestic economic efforts. This means I need to spend 106 points total, correct?

The thing I'm not sure is someone said something about scaling up / down the education costs according to government economy mode. What gives?

Didn't recieve any telegrams recently.

As for the distinction between federal and state spending, I don't really think that ought to be differentiated - you're claiming the benefits of both an integrated economy and a fragmented one, and I don't think that's really how it should work. I would rather assume that all our points represent some kind of government spending, regardless of the level at which it's spent.

Technically, in my version of the Soviet Union, the actual "government" budget is minuscule. The soviets are a parallel administration to the state, not really part of it. The government's expenditures are on military and public works and education, and that's it, while the soviets are responsible for the rest of the economy (the distinction will become clearer as I fill out my thread).

I don't personally think there was enough fighting in malarial zones to justify the expense, but I won't fight it. Blood typing I could see happening in Italy, I suppose.

I guess the Union will to start researching computers and malarial cures, now, too. Ah, well. We should be ahead of you in rockets. We got Tsiolkovsky, and von Braun. I'll start in on the helicopters, too, I guess . . .


we have Goddard (chuckle)...

actually the US is well ahead on Malaria and Yellow Fever, principally because it built the Panama Canal and all four of its last four military involvements (Cuba, Philippine Insurrection, Venezuela and the possibility of campaigns in Vietnam, Cambodia, India and Burma that were eventually cancelled). Hence the US push for tropical medicine.

Things were pretty bloody in France and Spain as well, not just Italy (from the US point of view).

The US has three levels of government spending, and regional, national and local economies. The point system was really intended originally for simulating economic, infrastructure and education spending, and thus I am still trying to figure out how to fit the model to the RP.

The best I can come up with so far is to either double the number of points so that governments have enough to actually buy what they did historically, or set up two sets of points, one of which can be used for anything, and the other only for infrastructure and education and research.

I am not happy about the additional complexity either requires, nor the fact that measurable results are damned hard to determine. The US spends much more on education (proportionally) now than it did 40 years ago, but the number of high school graduates has not signficantly increased.

Like I said, its a tough one to figure out.

One problem that we have...

If this point system grows in complexity, with 2 point systems going on at once, or whatever, then newcomers and veterans alike will have a hell of a time trying to figure out how, why, and what to do. This may turn away potential new RP'ers and players, and make E20 sterile and de-sensitized.

I'm happy with the point system as it is now. I think if we try to keep the point system simple then it won't overwhelm players or "turn-off" possible character or non-war related RP's in E20. Just stating my honest opinion- basically, the point system is good, but too much of it may spoil E20.

1926 - 1931 spending is not needed, as that has already been handled for the period while Algeria was an NPC nation. Besides, in peacetime, a factory costs either 18 points (national effort) or 36 points (peacetime spending).

I do not understand, when I wrote the first draft of the plan it was still 1926, and I have spread out the points for building a factory so at the end of the first national effort I will have 1 factory finished immediately after it finishes I cut government spending in 1932 so it costed 18 points the rest of the other factories are constructed in the second national effort.

So is my plan Ok or not?

Oh, and thank you for all the work your doing here at E20

One problem that we have...

If this point system grows in complexity, with 2 point systems going on at once, or whatever, then newcomers and veterans alike will have a hell of a time trying to figure out how, why, and what to do. This may turn away potential new RP'ers and players, and make E20 sterile and de-sensitized.

I'm happy with the point system as it is now. I think if we try to keep the point system simple then it won't overwhelm players or "turn-off" possible character or non-war related RP's in E20. Just stating my honest opinion- basically, the point system is good, but too much of it may spoil E20.



I agree. It's getting very complicated and taking a bit of life out. We should have research more or less parallel I think to RL, obviously with some differences but this is just getting rather complex. I agree though the builds aer okay at the moment.

we have Goddard (chuckle)...
Tsiolkovsky, of course, was Goddard's equal, and von Braun had no equals. I hear Goddard cried like a baby when he saw von Braun's superior rocket kung fu.

The US has three levels of government spending, and regional, national and local economies.
Honestly, I don't think this is relevant. The points system represents an abstracted level of resource allocation, not who specifically is actually doing the allocating.

More importantly, I have to say this is getting out of control.

Basically, what is actually needed is a system that allows for people to build up their economies and industry, advance their technology, and build military forces. That's pretty much it, as far as what's actually necessary. We shouldn't even be micromanaging scientific research (five different kinds of radar? six steps to the V-2?).

Research

The real issue (well, one of at least two) is not how realistic can we make the points system, but rather what is the broadest level of detail we can get away with while still retaining the system's objectivity?

If I just allocate a bunch of production points to "military applications," then that's too vague to be objective. By the next war I might claim to have helicopters and mid-range guided missiles, but that could just as easily be diputed by someone who says I didn't spend "enough" or didn't start out advanced enough.

But researching five different kinds of radar is way too fine a level of detail. Criminy, I haven't even heard of any of that stuff - how could I be expected to be able to research it? A smart, educated player should have some advantages, yes, but we do represent entire countries, here: Russian and German engineers would know about all those different radars even if I don't. That's their job.

No, we should definitely wind up somewhere between these two, and we should define possibilities for research as exhaustively as possible.

In the meantime, in order to prevent suspension of play any longer, I'm unilaterally declaring three research types, which will retroactively be exploded into finer levels of detail when those levels are defined.

Theoretical Science
Civilian Applications
Military Applications

At present, none of these have any game effect whatsoever. Game effects will be determined by myself, Sharina, and Galveston Bay, and posted in this thread.

Education and social services

Just as a "factory" represents an abstraction of production, which could include improvements to power grids, transportation networks, improved mobilization of labor or capital, etc., there's a lot going on in "education and social services," economically speaking. I think it represents not just direct disbursements but also worker and (when they happen) environmental protection laws, the power of trade unions, equality of income distribution, and other abstractions.

Moreover, production points do not (or at least should not) represent direct spending only. They represent a concentration, diversion, or other use of economic resources encouraged or mandated by the national leadership.

I really have to leave for work right now, though, so this will have to wait to be finished. But this will be simplified as well.

Right, I think I finally have my head around this system. This should be my final build schedule, as long as nothing changes.
----------------------------------------------

1926 UK (July, August, September-October, November-December turns):
42 points (reduced to normal economy):

2 points to finish strategic bombing research
3 points to finish 1 HQ
6 points to finish 3 UK 8 point mechanized corps
9 points to finish 3 UK bomber units
2 points to build 1 fighter unit
10 points: Tech 6 Battleship attack 4, protection 7, speed 4, range 5 Cost 10 build time 4 years (14 inch guns)
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
1 shipping unit 3 points

--------------------------------------------------

1927 UK (standard production, 2% growth (down to 1% due to war)):
42 points:

2 points to upgrade reserve motorised corps to mechanised
22 points to start NHS
2 points to upgrade 1 bomber unit from Heyfords to Hampdens and 1 fighter from Demons to Hurricanes.
8 points 2x Tech 6 submarine units (20 submarines total), attack 1, protection 0, speed 3, range 5, 4 points, 1 year
Tech 6 Fleet carrier protection 2, speed 6, range 6, Cost 8, build time 3 years (80 – 100 aircraft)

RESEARCH: 8 free points to go into Antibiotic development (particularly sulfacetamide and sufamethizol)

------------------------------------------------------

1928 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth, down to 4% due to war):
21 points (inc 2% growth from last year):
Tech 6 light cruiser attack 1, defense 1, speed 7 range 6 (can trade a point of speed for a point of range) Cost 6 build time 2 years
Tech 6 heavy cruiser attack 1, defense 2, speed 7, range 6 (can trade a point of speed or protection for a point of range) Cost 7 build time 2 years
3 points for 1 bomber unit (Hampdens)
2 points for 1 pilot unit
4 points of further investment in NHS

RESEARCH: 16 points available, 4 to finish antibiotics (I presume it's still 12 points per research item) and 12 to begin and finish anti-malaria research, ie. to link it to mosquitos and to introduce Quinacrine, chloroquine, and primaquine.

---------------------------------------------------------

1929 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
22 points (inc 5% growth)

3 points into NHS
12 points for 1 factory
1 National Airline (3 points)
1 International Airline (4 points)

RESEARCH: 16 points available, 12 to research advanced RADAR 4 points to begin spectrophotometry and the development of the first reliable spectrophotometer (a success here will advance understanding of Physics and also speed up manufacturing processes)

-------------------------------------------------------------

1930 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
25 points (inc. 5% growth)

4xFlak artillery attack strength 1, defense strength 3 (doubled against aircraft), cost 2 points, 2 turns.

1xCoast artillery 3 points / 3 turns. Attack 0 Defense 5,

2xFortifications (permanent, doubles defense strength all defending units, destroyed if captured) 2 points, 2 turns

begin 1 factory 12 points

RESEARCH: 16 free points: 8 to finish Spectrophotometry, 8 to begin millimeter RADAR research.

---------------------------------------------------------------

1931 UK (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
26 points (inc 5% growth)

1xTech 6 Battleship attack 5, protection 8, speed 6, range 7 (can trade) Cost 12 build time 5 years (16 inch guns)
add to one factory 14 points (now 26/30 complete)

RESEARCH: 16 points: 4 to finish millimeter RADARand 12 to conduct TV research

------------------------------------------------------

1932 builds (half points, reduced economy, 5% growth)
29 points (inc 5% growth, 3 factories)

10 points to finish 1 factory
3 points for 1 airborne corps
10 points to upgrade all bombers and fighters with millimeter RADAR (5 bombers and 5 fighters)
6 points to begin construction of advanced RADAR detection system on South and East coasts, ustilising latest advances in RADAR technology.

RESEARCH: 16 points: 12 to study Jet Engines and 4 to go towards blood research (including diseases carried in blood etc.)

---------------------------------------------------

1933 builds (half economy, 5% growth)
30 points

4 points to upgrade 2 bomber units to Bristol Blenheims (with mm RADAR)
4 points to upgrade remaining 2 fighter units to Hawker Hurricanes (with mm RADAR)
4 points for 1 air transport unit (double engined)
6 points for 3 pilot units
6 points to finish advanced RADAR detection system.
6 points to upgrade naval torpedo bombers to Fairey Swordfish

RESEARCH: 16 points: 8 to finish blood research and 12 to conduct oil exploration research.

Should I post what I wanted Vietnam to do from 1927 to 1932 in the style that everyone else is using or did you get what I wanted from that small jumbled post?

Question:
Yugoslavia gets 2% growth each year, and has an annual point spending of 8, after 6 years that is 1 point growth, or am i wrong? Just wondering before i add that, now that it is 1932 and i need to start coming up with a 1933 build plan.

oki, I think i'm ready to try this

1926
1 Point for Education
9 Points for a Factory

1927
1 Point for Education
9 Points for a Factory

1928
1 Point for Education
9 Points for a Factory

1929
1 Point for Education
9 Points for a Factory

1930
(Factory complete)
1 Point for Education
11 Points for a Factory

1931
1 Point for Education
11 Points for a Factory

*gulp* Okay, here I goes...

1926
1 point for education
7 points for factory

1927
1 point for education
7 points for factory

1928
1 point for education
7 points for factory

1929
1 point for education
7 points for factory

1930
1 point for education
7 points for factory

1931
7 points for education
1 point for factory

1932
(Factory Completion)
8 points for Light cruiser
2 points for education

why is everyone putting a point into education i wonder?

why is everyone putting a point into education i wonder?

India are stupid.

lol, just making sure no one is thinking they are getting a tech level upgrade from it lol, anyway, maybe you can ask the smart japanese people to send some teachers!

Mexico is doing the New Deal Plan So you get 6 a year times 2= 12 points. .

Mexico gets 3 points a year, not 3 points a bimonthly turn. National Effort gets you 6.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9934066&postcount=2

Question:
Yugoslavia gets 2% growth each year, and has an annual point spending of 8, after 6 years that is 1 point growth, or am i wrong? Just wondering before i add that, now that it is 1932 and i need to start coming up with a 1933 build plan.

I would be willing to accept after 5 years (rounding to nearest)

Should I post what I wanted Vietnam to do from 1927 to 1932 in the style that everyone else is using or did you get what I wanted from that small jumbled post?

Just start with 1932 and assume the last few years were spent to get you where you are now.

Thank you GB for telling me that.

Just start with 1932 and assume the last few years were spent to get you where you are now.

the above applies to you as well Comstam, and whatever new players join at this point, including Zactarn.

Okay...

1932-1938
National effort,
and all points being reinvested back into developing industry.

1939-1940
National effort ends.
Two points going to education and the rest being reinvested back into industry.

Mexico is doing a national effort.

1932
6 points go to a Factory

1933
6 points go to a Factory

1934
6 point go to a Factory
Completion of Factory

1935
10 points go to a Factory

1936
8 point go to a Factory
2 points go to a new Factory
Completion of Factory

1937
14 points go to a Factory

1938
4 points go to a Factory
12 point go to a new Factory
Completion of Factory

Cut National Spending (So Mexico gets 1.5 points do I get 1 or 2 points? I'm just going to have one point.)

1939
1 point goes to Education
3 points goes to Fortications at Acapulco
3 points go to Factory

1940
1 points goes to Education
6 points go to factory
Completion of Fortications

So Mexico has three factories done. Another factory is being built but they only have 21 points out of the needed 36 points. So each turn Mexico gets 1 point plus 6 extra points from the factories. For now Mexico has cut their spendings.

How do you have 22 points in 1940? Building a factory means you get 1 point extra.

Parthini']How do you have 22 points in 1940? Building a factory means you get 1 point extra.

No. Unless the system has changed overnight, a factory gives you two points on normal spending and 4 on national effort. It gives one in reduced spending. In normal spending, it costs 36 points. In national effort, it costs 18.

Ooop!

I didn't see that he had stocked up a bunch of points during National Spending.

However, I am really curious to know how he has 20 points stocked up in 1940, because, unless I'm halucenating (which is possible), then he only has 9 points regular.

Parthini']Ooop!

I didn't see that he had stocked up a bunch of points during National Spending.

However, I am really curious to know how he has 20 points stocked up in 1940, because, unless I'm halucenating (which is possible), then he only has 9 points regular.

production points cannot be stocked up or saved from year to year... if not used, they end up going back to the civilian economy

WAIT, you get 4 points for factories in national effort?

**Question. How many factories can I have?

I hear Goddard cried like a baby when he saw von Braun's superior rocket kung fu.

OOC: That's from my sig, which was quoted from Fark.com, y'know. :)

You can only have as many points in Regular Spending as you have 1 million people.

production points cannot be stocked up or saved from year to year... if not used, they end up going back to the civilian economy

Wait a sec. This was done during war-time as in "points in reserve". This represents surplus material like extra tons of steel, iron, coal, or extra cash. These would come in handy if a nation needs a few extra points to finish a project in the following year.

Example...

Year 1 = 20 points income.

Expeditures: 18 points for 6 Merchant marine.

2 Points in reserve.


Year 2 = 23 points income (3 from 6 merchant marine) + 2 points in reserve.

Expeditures: 24 points for 8 merchant marine (uses 1 point in reserve from the previous year)

1 Point in reserve.


And so on.

But then the people don't get tax refunds, and citizens without tax refunds are not happy citizens!

OOC: That's from my sig, which was quoted from Fark.com, y'know. :)
Yes, I did know that was from your sig.

Wait a sec. This was done during war-time as in "points in reserve". This represents surplus material like extra tons of steel, iron, coal, or extra cash. These would come in handy if a nation needs a few extra points to finish a project in the following year.

Just because it was done in wartime doesn't mean it's possible during peacetime - during war, there is no "civilian economy" to demand the use of surplus goods and services. Everything is devoted to winning the war.

I'm willing to grandfather the people who've already budgeted reserve points, and I think you could probably make use of reserves during National Efforts, but past 1932, as Reality and Economic Moderator, I'm not in favor of it.

I don't really see the problem with having our technology 10+ years ahead of real life. I think it would be neat to have my laptop available in 1989, with a colony on the moon or something. Perhaps curing cancer by 1995, and the internet by '79.
The internet by '79 might be a little early, but moon-bases and rocket cars and maglev trains by the late 'eighties and early 'nineties would be pretty cool. A manned mission to Mars might be a nice way to close out the century, too, assuming we haven't, you know, nuked ourselves.

For that matter, I honestly hope to put a beeping tin can in space by 1950.

But for the 'thirties, I'd like to keep it it a little close to what was actually around.

Military Maintenance Costs
I've been contemplating this. I think every active unit in a country's military should cost 1 production point annually, and every two reserve units should also cost 1 production point. That would add up very quickly for people who want to maintain large standing armies (and navies). It would also allow us to say that units are automatically updated with the latest equipment. Military reform can therefore be limited to times when strategic doctrine undergoes major shifts, either as a result of geopolitical changes or really radical (as opposed to ordinary incremental) advances in technology.

I think having maintenance costs would be a good idea but either cheaper than what you have stated or have different amounts of maintenace that you can pay with low payments meaning poorly maintained military forces and high payments meaning equipment that is in top condition. Then GB could implement this someway into his war calculations maybe?

As for sticking upgarding costs in there I think that would be great for the big countries with lots of points but what if I want to keep my old equipment but in relatively good condition?

I think having maintenance costs would be a good idea but either cheaper than what you have stated or have different amounts of maintenace that you can pay with low payments meaning poorly maintained military forces and high payments meaning equipment that is in top condition. Then GB could implement this someway into his war calculations maybe?

As for sticking upgarding costs in there I think that would be great for the big countries with lots of points but what if I want to keep my old equipment but in relatively good condition?
I'd be willing to say that substandard troops might be half cost. Spend any less than that and your army ceases to exist except on paper (see "Iraq, Army of"). Militia might cost nothing once you've built them, but could be somehow limited to a percentage of population.

I'd prefer not to mess with different cost levels otherwise. Standing militaries are, as Comrade Leader Trotsky teaches us, a parasite upon human civilization. They should be expensive.

Just because it was done in wartime doesn't mean it's possible during peacetime - during war, there is no "civilian economy" to demand the use of surplus goods and services. Everything is devoted to winning the war.

I'm willing to grandfather the people who've already budgeted reserve points, and I think you could probably make use of reserves during National Efforts, but past 1932, as Reality and Economic Moderator, I'm not in favor of it.

One major problem with cutting off reserve points and such...

Nations that have very low or neligible point totals like Vietnam, Siam, Sweden, etc. who can't generate enough production points to even build one factory, or even an armored cavalary unit, or such won't ever be able to do anything.

Thus, if we preserve the reserve point system, then Vietnam and other nations with small industry will be able to build what they need. For example, Vietnam needs 4 1/2 years of reserve point savings just to build ONE factory. With the reserve point system cut off, then Vietnam will NEVER be able to build one factory.

Ditto for a nation trying to research something. A technology costs 12 points, and a nation may only gain 2 or 3 points total a year. They'd need 4 - 6 years of reserve point savings to do the 1 research project.

See what I mean?

You can spread out your spending Sharina....i mean put 1 point in each year, and at the end of 2 years you got yourself an infantry corp.

You can spread out your spending Sharina....i mean put 1 point in each year, and at the end of 2 years you got yourself an infantry corp.

True, but still. The concept remains, though.

Besides, isn't using reserve points towards factory building and such the same thing as using these spare points for the civilian economy anyway, seeing that factories *ARE* a measure of one's economy?

Not only that, but using reserve points towards building economy related things like merchant marine, airlines, or research- thats the same thing as re-investing these spare points into the economy. What I propose is that reserve points are allowed, but only for economy-related things and the reserve points cannot be used for military related things or builds. Is this an acceptable compromise?

Brazil and Italy have recently formalised a trade deal that will enable both of our nations to prosper. Brazil currently has not got the expertise to maximise the potential of her resources, but she is in need of a sizeable merchant fleet. Italy needs a stable trading partner from which to gain raw materials.

Thus, the agreement has been founded.

Italy is granted a 12 year monopoly on the Coffee and Rubber export trade and in return is building a 90 build point size merchant shipping fleet for Brazil over 3 years.

Britain will be offered a similar deal as it is our first major trade partner. If Brazil is agreeable, instead of having interests in all of our raw material bases, maybe we could grant a monopoly on the Lumber and Tin export industries. Both deals are still currently negotiable with both parties.



Anyway, back to the main agreement. In practical terms, the deal means that Italy will have a 5 point a turn resource gain from her Brazilian industries and Brazil will obviously have a large merchant fleet. After the monopoly has expired, other countries and companies will invest in those areas but the monopoly holders will still have a large market share with the established business contacts they have made.

Signed,

Jorge Veracruz,
Minister of Finance.

Pedro Leitao,
Foreign Minister.


ooc: and yes, I discussed this with Fluffywuffy.

By the way Rodenka I would have telegrammed today about offering you a similar deal but I can't get on my main NS page.

True, but still. The concept remains, though.

Besides, isn't using reserve points towards factory building and such the same thing as using these spare points for the civilian economy anyway, seeing that factories *ARE* a measure of one's economy?

Not only that, but using reserve points towards building economy related things like merchant marine, airlines, or research- thats the same thing as re-investing these spare points into the economy. What I propose is that reserve points are allowed, but only for economy-related things and the reserve points cannot be used for military related things or builds. Is this an acceptable compromise?

How does any of this make sense Sharina? If a factory doesn't work one year they can work twice as hard the next year? You talk about making the system less complicated etc, and here you are proposing something that changes nothing, but adds another layer of complexity. What is the difference between spending 1 point over 2 years and spending no points your first year and 2 points in your second year? None of it makes sense as a valid addition to the system to me.

True, but still. The concept remains, though.

Besides, isn't using reserve points towards factory building and such the same thing as using these spare points for the civilian economy anyway, seeing that factories *ARE* a measure of one's economy?

Not only that, but using reserve points towards building economy related things like merchant marine, airlines, or research- thats the same thing as re-investing these spare points into the economy. What I propose is that reserve points are allowed, but only for economy-related things and the reserve points cannot be used for military related things or builds. Is this an acceptable compromise?
I don't really understand this. "Reserve" points are unspent production points that, in wartime, represent a certain amount of productive capacity that's been set aside for things like repairing ships or for equipping military units quickly in an emergency. I know they'd roll over from turn to turn but I don't really recall them rolling over from year to year.

Nor do I really see any reason why they should. They should never be necessary during non-emergency conditions. Maybe there's something I'm not getting here.

Brazil and Italy have recently formalised a trade deal that will enable both of our nations to prosper. Brazil currently has not got the expertise to maximise the potential of her resources, but she is in need of a sizeable merchant fleet. Italy needs a stable trading partner from which to gain raw materials.

Thus, the agreement has been founded.

Italy is granted a 12 year monopoly on the Coffee and Rubber export trade and in return is building a 90 build point size merchant shipping fleet for Brazil over 3 years.

Britain will be offered a similar deal as it is our first major trade partner. If Brazil is agreeable, instead of having interests in all of our raw material bases, maybe we could grant a monopoly on the Lumber and Tin export industries. Both deals are still currently negotiable with both parties.



Anyway, back to the main agreement. In practical terms, the deal means that Italy will have a 5 point a turn resource gain from her Brazilian industries and Brazil will obviously have a large merchant fleet. After the monopoly has expired, other countries and companies will invest in those areas but the monopoly holders will still have a large market share with the established business contacts they have made.

Signed,

Jorge Veracruz,
Minister of Finance.

Pedro Leitao,
Foreign Minister.


ooc: and yes, I discussed this with Fluffywuffy.
Where the hell is Italy getting thirty points a year to spend on building someone else's merchant fleet? This really doesn't sound right to me.

Italy's annual productivity cap is 38 at Normal Spending. Plus 17 for commerce is 55. Since GB is gone till Saturay night at the earliest, and we don't have his ruling on unit maintenance costs yet, there is, theoretically, no costs for maintaining fleets and standing armies yet, but I'd strongly advise setting some points aside for that. I'm not likely to modify my own ruling (1 point maintenance per active unit annually, 1 point maintenance per 2 reserves) without some serious convincing. I haven't taken a look at Italy's military, but the Italian economy seems really overcommitted to me so far.

It's called National Effort, combined with shipping off reserve shipping that I made for wartime, combined with spending points over several years. But if upkeep costs come into play, I'm likely screwed....

I don't see how upkeep should come into play. The very fact that one is building a large military already diverts points that could be used to modernize thier economy in the first place. Plus, we already have a very good system in place to deal with standing armies (i.e. Limitation of units during peacetime economy). Throwing in a large point hit for "maintenance" after the fact would be a bad idea.

My suggestion is a point loss for every person above peacetime totals. This would show a diversion of the workforce, and a significant production toward maintance. However, within the peactime totals, it should be expected that everyone will be able to maintain their military.

By the way Rodenka I would have telegrammed today about offering you a similar deal but I can't get on my main NS page.

Yeah, NS is being stupid. I would agree to the deal, except I only get 10 points a year myself. I need to get more people into Romania, etc. Bulgaria looks tempting.... =P

I don't see how upkeep should come into play. The very fact that one is building a large military already diverts points that could be used to modernize thier economy in the first place. Plus, we already have a very good system in place to deal with standing armies (i.e. Limitation of units during peacetime economy). Throwing in a large point hit for "maintenance" after the fact would be a bad idea.

My suggestion is a point loss for every person above peacetime totals. This would show a diversion of the workforce, and a significant production toward maintance. However, within the peactime totals, it should be expected that everyone will be able to maintain their military.
Well, it's a thought. (I assume by "person" you mean unit.)

That will lead to serious re-militarization, though. I mean, by sheer population, China will be able to maintain a peacetime standing army of 150 ground units, or trade 1 ground unit for 4 naval or air units for a standing military of, for example, 100 ground units, 100 naval units, and 100 air units.

Plus the same number of reserves.

Frankly, just because the Chinese population allows for a military force of that size doesn't mean their economy could support it. We all know the Chinese economy is backwards, after all.

Also, there's the question of keeping your units up-to-date. I don't like the idea of having keep track of a refit schedule in addition to everything else. I don't want to have to think, "Okay, I bought six tanks in 1936 and the four tanks in 1938, plus those tanks I last upgraded in '35, so . . ." That would annoy the hell out of me. It'd be vastly easier to just keep track of a general maintenance cost and assume that all my tanks are kept up to date.

The costs I'm proposing may be too expensive, but that can be fixed quite easily, and they solve some important problems.

Considering that the current chinese military is no where near 6 million(100x60,000) i don't see that as possible either.

I wouldn't mind the cost of units being maintained but it needs to be brought down...half a point for reserves? Countries like Israel where a large chunk of the population is in the reserves cannot be represented in that form. Maybe 1/4th a point for reserves and half a point to one point for active, rounding up for ease of numbers.

Considering that the current chinese military is no where near 6 million(100x60,000) i don't see that as possible either.

I wouldn't mind the cost of units being maintained but it needs to be brought down...half a point for reserves? Countries like Israel where a large chunk of the population is in the reserves cannot be represented in that form. Maybe 1/4th a point for reserves and half a point to one point for active, rounding up for ease of numbers.
Israel's a special case - their military spending is backed by the United States, and if that backing were withdrawn, the Israeli economy probably would collapse unless they cut back on defense spending.

In the Twenty-First Century Real World, the costs for upkeep have a lot less to with numbers and a lot more to do with equipment and training. US spending on its military is nearly 15% of total revenues (Israeli defense spending is more than 20% of its budget - and they have less than 3% of their population in the military, incidentally). Granted, the US is nominally at war, but it's been near that level ever since Reagan. Most other countries, by contrast, spend closer to 3-5% of their revenues on their peacetime militaries, which generally employ somewhere around 0.05% of their populations.

I'm still pretty flexible on the exact maintenance costs we end up using for E20 (Tech Level 6). But I just wanted to make the point that Israel's a bad example - it's impossible in real life (at least on its own).

Would any Korean Workingman's Party relief programs need points to carry out?

Britain will be offered a similar deal as it is our first major trade partner. If Brazil is agreeable, instead of having interests in all of our raw material bases, maybe we could grant a monopoly on the Lumber and Tin export industries. Both deals are still currently negotiable with both parties.

Britain would be glad to become a monopoly interest in the Lumber and Tin industries and would be glad to assist Brazil's development in terms of material. Is there any certain product that Brazil requires (as there is no point in any more merchant shipping), perhaps some domestic and international airlines. Britain would of course lend it's expertise to training pilots as well.

Due to reduced government spending Britain is unwilling to expend more than 40 points in this endeavour and will accept a reduction in monopoly time for this reason. Perhaps down to 6 years return on the investment.

OOC: in game terms say: 2x airline (one domestic, one international) at 4 points (?) each and 3 pilots (one reserve, just in case) at 3 points each, for a total of 17 points investment, but this will leave more points unspent (any ideas?).

Would any Korean Workingman's Party relief programs need points to carry out?
Maybe. But I think until the points system is worked out we'll assume not. We'll just consider part of the Union's "social services" budget to be headed to Korea.

Britain would be glad to become a monopoly interest in the Lumber and Tin industries and would be glad to assist Brazil's development in terms of material. Is there any certain product that Brazil requires (as there is no point in any more merchant shipping), perhaps some domestic and international airlines. Britain would of course lend it's expertise to training pilots as well.

Due to reduced government spending Britain is unwilling to expend more than 40 points in this endeavour and will accept a reduction in monopoly time for this reason. Perhaps down to 6 years return on the investment.

OOC: in game terms say: 2x airline (one domestic, one international) at 4 points (?) each and 3 pilots (one reserve, just in case) at 3 points each, for a total of 17 points investment, but this will leave more points unspent (any ideas?).
Please read this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9983035&postcount=202). In my opinion, major international ventures are premature until we get some basics hammered out.

Britain would be glad to become a monopoly interest in the Lumber and Tin industries and would be glad to assist Brazil's development in terms of material. Is there any certain product that Brazil requires (as there is no point in any more merchant shipping), perhaps some domestic and international airlines. Britain would of course lend it's expertise to training pilots as well.

Due to reduced government spending Britain is unwilling to expend more than 40 points in this endeavour and will accept a reduction in monopoly time for this reason. Perhaps down to 6 years return on the investment.

OOC: in game terms say: 2x airline (one domestic, one international) at 4 points (?) each and 3 pilots (one reserve, just in case) at 3 points each, for a total of 17 points investment, but this will leave more points unspent (any ideas?).

Yes six years is acceptable. For the unspent points, maybe we could allocate them to a naval plan to augment the maritime clout we will hopefully be wielding. Say a few destroyers and cruisers to protect the fleet? I don't know in points values what this will mean, but if there are any left over then perhaps you could help me further with my education system?

In which case, please ignore my previous post.

I must have missed your post, sorry.

Please read this post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9983035&postcount=202). In my opinion, major international ventures are premature until we get some basics hammered out.


Well when the basics are dealt with and after factoring in the changes that the basics will make, can we consider these investments to have gone through in 1932?

I'd appreciate it if people would wait till 1935.

Colombia would appreciate it if Great Britain didn't do such business with the likes of Brazil. But to each their own.

I (the stateless know-it-all), would prefer it if Brazil wouldn't do business with the likes of Italy or Britain. Oh well.

Needs must. My country needs modernisation. Unless you can make me a better offer?

I'd appreciate it if people would wait till 1935.
Let me put this another way.

Until all questions of domestic spending are settled, there will be NO foreign aid of any kind.

In other words, the earliest that any foreign aid will happen is 1935, and that is only if we have settled all questions regarding domestic spending.

I hope that's clear enough.

And let me say one other thing about why all this talk about foreign aid strikes me as premature.

Some of you may have missed the fact that by the end of the Five Year Plan, the Soviet Union had become the largest single economy on Earth. At Normal Spending levels, we have 217 points per year. The Americans don't even have that.

This means that, in all likelihood, the Union will become the single largest purveyor of foreign aid in the world. Certainly, we have the ability to "outbid" any of you.

But, frankly, I don't want to have to deal with that, yet. I want my own house in order before I go around fixing other people's. This means that questions of domestic spending need to be settled if I'm going to be able to come up with an effective budget.

And, too, you guys are talking far in advance.

In 1932, which is the year Italy should be focused on, they don't even have a surplus. They don't get a surplus until 1935. You guys are projecting way too far into the future. That's three weeks away - since when have we gone that long without a world war?

So, please, focus on your own countries for the moment.

I don't really understand this. "Reserve" points are unspent production points that, in wartime, represent a certain amount of productive capacity that's been set aside for things like repairing ships or for equipping military units quickly in an emergency. I know they'd roll over from turn to turn but I don't really recall them rolling over from year to year.

Nor do I really see any reason why they should. They should never be necessary during non-emergency conditions. Maybe there's something I'm not getting here.

Okay. I apologize if I was confusing you, but I'll try to clear this issue once and for all.

Here goes an example...

Nation X has 110 points for Year 1 on a National Effort Program with 8 points left-over from the previous year.

Nation X spends 108 points on 6 factories, leaving 10 extra points. (Total points available for use = 118)

In Year 2, Nation X has 134 points + 10 points in reserve.

This will allow Nation X to build 8 factories worth 144 points (the 134 point income of Year 2 AND use up the 10 reserve points) instead of 7 factories.

That's what I'm getting at. Sometimes that extra reserve point *does* make a difference.

That's what I'm getting at. Sometimes that extra reserve point *does* make a difference.
If they were planning on building factories with the reserve points, then why don't they just build part of a factory instead of holding the points in "reserve"? So, in your example, Nation X in National Effort could just put 8 points into a factory one year, and ten points the next year, and have the same number of factories, built on the same schedule, as if the points had been reserved.

Reserve points are different, and more useful than partial builds, and, as I say, are neither needed nor particualrly justifiable in peacetime.

The only real purpose I could see reserve points serving in peacetime would be for something like a national emergency management agency. And I think Katrina shows what happens when you spend those points on other things. And it also shows that such points don't roll over.

If they were planning on building factories with the reserve points, then why don't they just build part of a factory instead of holding the points in "reserve"? So, in your example, Nation X in National Effort could just put 8 points into a factory one year, and ten points the next year, and have the same number of factories, built on the same schedule, as if the points had been reserved.

Reserve points are different, and more useful than partial builds, and, as I say, are neither needed nor particualrly justifiable in peacetime.

The only real purpose I could see reserve points serving in peacetime would be for something like a national emergency management agency. And I think Katrina shows what happens when you spend those points on other things. And it also shows that such points don't roll over.

Thanks for the clarification. I was somewhat confused between that system and the reserve point system.

So should everything be all right if I simply said all my "extra points" go into factory building or something similiar?

Yes, although I'd recommend keeping track of them, listing them something like: "Factory - 8 pts (6 more needed for completion)," or whatever.

Yes, although I'd recommend keeping track of them, listing them something like: "Factory - 8 pts (6 more needed for completion)," or whatever.

No problem. Now that this thing is resolved, I do add my opinion that the reserve point system is to be used during wartime only (for repairs of ships or cities, or emergency troops), and that the extra points that players may have can be put into new projects even though they may be incomplete like factory-building or research projects.

Agreed? :)

Have we decided upon pointage for keeping your military in check?

1933 builds: 22 points
Increase Tech Level:2 points (one for education and one for industry)
1xShipping unit: 3 points
Military upkeep:7(rounded from 6.5)
Medical/Welfare 5 points per 10 million people: 5 points
Economy/Industrial reform: 5 points(69 more needed until factory completed)
Points used:22

Have we decided upon pointage for keeping your military in check?

No, we haven't. That's why I was so vague other than the ship construction.

I'm going to have to overhaul my ground forces in 1934, anyway (since we're a few years ahead of RL technology, that's when I was going to replace all my 4 corps of German Panzer Mk-III's with Ukrainian T-34's, and simultaneously upgrade my remaining mechanized infantry to armored cavalry). Since that's the case, we all may as well stay vague till then.

1933 builds

I'm cutting spending to increase growth, so I have 5 points.

3 points for a shipping unit
1 point to education
1 point to general research

Placeholder for 1933 French Builds

Errr, I don't think anyone noticed, but during the post-war years I built a factory (check here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9974072&postcount=169)), so I go from 8 points to 10, right-o?

If that be so, then here goes my 1932, 1933 post.

1932:
1 education
9 factory

1933:
1 education
9 factory.

The Year of 1933 the MEU 17 points a year..

10 points for one factories(10 points from last year and 10 this year compete by 1935)
5 points for Headquarters units( compete by 1934)
two points for the education

ooc
back from vacation, and exhausted. Will have a look at things tomorrow probably.

This build should be China's final build (accounting for 1926 through 1934). According to Vas, this build is reasonable and should be fine.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9960555&postcount=110

1933 Build

11 Points ( 7 Industry maxed because of Population, 1 Shipping)

Education-5 points
6 Points-Spare

1933 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2 Points to Education
20 Points to Healthcare
6 Points to Welfare

1933 - 11 + 17 = 28p
2 Points to Education
20 Points to Healthcare
6 Points to Welfare
What are you, some kind of socialist?

But for the 'thirties, I'd like to keep it it a little close to what was actually around..


my feelings exactly... it is 1933, so keeping the 5 years ahead thing, we have 1938 levels of technology as mainstream, with 1939-40 ideas under development or research. I also think in peacetime there should be a 2 year lag between the time something is discovered and when it actually starts hitting the market place (or military forces). Things tend to be more carefully researched in peacetime.


Military Maintenance Costs
I've been contemplating this. I think every active unit in a country's military should cost 1 production point annually, and every two reserve units should also cost 1 production point. That would add up very quickly for people who want to maintain large standing armies (and navies). It would also allow us to say that units are automatically updated with the latest equipment. Military reform can therefore be limited to times when strategic doctrine undergoes major shifts, either as a result of geopolitical changes or really radical (as opposed to ordinary incremental) advances in technology.

That is completely acceptable, however, the costs should be doubled for aircraft. In addition, that should be the base cost for tech level 5 units, it should be more expensive (say 1.5 points) for tech level 6 units, and 2 points for tech level 7 and so on (higher tech units are more expensive, which is why the US nearly went broke and the Soviet Union did go broke during the Cold War).

Suggest as follows:
(to be added later)

Not only that, but using reserve points towards building economy related things like merchant marine, airlines, or research- thats the same thing as re-investing these spare points into the economy. What I propose is that reserve points are allowed, but only for economy-related things and the reserve points cannot be used for military related things or builds. Is this an acceptable compromise?

Reserve points are essentially wasted unless you specifically allocate them to something. Lets say Peru with 2 points wants to build a fighter unit and a pilot. It can't build both at the same time, but spends 2 points this year for them and 2 points next year... but ALLOCATES the points specifically for them.

These points aren't in reserve, they have been spent.

What are you, some kind of socialist?

My true Canadian feelings are coming to the surface.. oh noes!

*Is voting NDP in January... the most Socialist on the ballot*

OOC: edited mine accordingly.

And i am guessing upgrades are automatic now in peacetime?

That is completely acceptable, however, the costs should be doubled for aircraft. In addition, that should be the base cost for tech level 5 units, it should be more expensive (say 1.5 points) for tech level 6 units, and 2 points for tech level 7 and so on (higher tech units are more expensive, which is why the US nearly went broke and the Soviet Union did go broke during the Cold War).

Suggest as follows:
(to be added later)

Tech Level 5 forces
infantry, militia units (free)
motorized, garrison, artillery units, fortifications .5 points
mechanized, armored cavalry, armored units 1 point
headquarters units 2 points
fighters, bombers 1 point
pilots .5 points (pilots disappear if maintanence not paid)
submarines and light ships .25 points (per unit)
capital ships (carriers and battleships and heavy cruisers) 1 point per unit (which includes any aircraft and pilots assigned)

upgrade ground unit to next tech level (must actually reach that tech level, or someone spends to points for you to do so)... you must repurchase the unit (at half cost, as you are looking at more then simply replacing a few items of equipment). Rules for upgrading aircraft and ships are already covered.
Reserve units cost the same as regular units (your fixing and replacing equipment, not paying salaries).


tech level 6
militia (free)
garrison, infantry, fortifications .5 points
motorized, artillery units 1 point
mechanized, armored, headquarters units 2 points (headquarters are relatively cheaper at this tech level)
fighters 2 points
transports and bombers 2,3 or 4 points (single, twin or four engined)
carriers and landbased pilots .5 points
carrier aircraft 1 point
(essentially you are replacing aircraft routinely, as they don't last long at this tech level)

light ship and submarine units .5 points
single cruisers, battleships, carriers 1 point

In other words, higher tech level equipment is more expensive... which will also be useful later when we start getting to really high tech stuff.

an idea

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare).
1 point per 10 million people gives you basic schools and clinics
2 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance,
3 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled
5 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
10 points per 10 million people gives you all of the above plus free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working. Acts on economy the same as National Effort (as far as growth is concerned)

All nations would have their points doubled to reflect the fact that spending now is not only covering their defense and diplomatic goals, but also domestic priorities.

Of course to offset that, when the military moderator starts looking at nations to have domestic problems, guess what is going to be factored in?

You can also go broke very quickly trying to pull off some of these

wait...so i get 22 points now? Do factories count for 4 points now? so confusing.

an idea
I'll support that. Expensive as hell, but . . .

Just to be clear, reserve units cost the same as regular units? What's the advantage to keeping them reserve, then?

an idea
<snip>

Will this affect tech advancement? For example, as of this moment I'm spending two points on education and general research (like everyone else) in order to move up technologically and economically.

For example:
Nation X spends 2 points a year (1 education, 1 general research) to advance a tech level. After ten years, they reach the next tech level.

If Nation Y spent 4 points a year (two for each category), would they advance twice as fast? Or at the same rate?

Finally, I'm assuming this doesn't affect private institutions, only state-funded ones? In 1933, Witwatersrand University was probably the best school in Africa, and arguably one of the best in the Southern Hemishpere. I'd hate to lose that reputation ;)

One other thing. A couple other things. Maintenance costs for air transports are more expensive than you get for commerce. That may be deliberate at this level, or maybe not. Also, what about specialized units, like marines, and paratroopers and theater supply?

And I assume coast defense artillery counts as artillery, rather than fortifications, and mechanized artillery counts as mechanized.

And should points from commerce now be doubled, as well?

I'll support that. Expensive as hell, but . . .

Just to be clear, reserve units cost the same as regular units? What's the advantage to keeping them reserve, then?

they don't count against your population limit as heavily.. reserve units only come out during wartime.

One other thing. A couple other things. Maintenance costs for air transports are more expensive than you get for commerce. That may be deliberate at this level, or maybe not. Also, what about specialized units, like marines, and paratroopers and theater supply?

And I assume coast defense artillery counts as artillery, rather than fortifications, and mechanized artillery counts as mechanized.

And should points from commerce now be doubled, as well?

treat specialized units, such as marine, alpine, and paratrooper units, as mechanized units.. they are expensive to train. Points for commerce should be doubled as well.

In addition, if you don't pay maintenance on a unit, it reverts one step down (armor to mechanized, paratroopers to infantry as examples) that year, and have to be upgraded to regain previous value. By the way, no one at this point will know their combat values. Everyone is sure they have good troops, but they won't find out until war comes. Although the armies that fought still have a lot of veterans in them, peacetime routine has set in, and a lot of veterans have left the military.

Values now represent a RANGE of possible strength.

Wait, wait, wait...

Now I'm confused. Are you saying everyone points are now doubled now? In other words is USA = 250 points (doubled from 125'ish), Russia = 400 points doubled from 200 points, and so on? :confused:

Will this affect tech advancement? For example, as of this moment I'm spending two points on education and general research (like everyone else) in order to move up technologically and economically.

For example:
Nation X spends 2 points a year (1 education, 1 general research) to advance a tech level. After ten years, they reach the next tech level.

If Nation Y spent 4 points a year (two for each category), would they advance twice as fast? Or at the same rate?

Finally, I'm assuming this doesn't affect private institutions, only state-funded ones? In 1933, Witwatersrand University was probably the best school in Africa, and arguably one of the best in the Southern Hemishpere. I'd hate to lose that reputation ;)


First... private institutions are so small in number that all they really do is educate the elites of your nation. Their traditional role. So they really have no effect in game terms.

Broad based education is what brings up the general level of knowledge allowing for a better educated and more productive work force. In other words, you need at least a level 3 education spending level to have much hope of advancing quickly. In short, it replaces the previous rule if accepted.

Historically, the US, Germany, the Netherlands and a few others all had level 3 education by 1920 on a fairly wide scale (the Germans didn't have land grant colleges, but they had a lot of trade schools). By the 1930s, Canada and the Soviet Union did as well along with other nations. It played a major factor in their development. Its also really expensive.

Economic wealth and education go hand in hand.

Wait, wait, wait...

Now I'm confused. Are you saying everyone points are now doubled now? In other words is USA = 250 points (doubled from 125'ish), Russia = 400 points doubled from 200 points, and so on? :confused:

if accepted, yes.... but then spending will be going up as well.

Example, the US has 130 million people, and will have to spend 5 points per 10 million people (5 x 13 ) or 65 points total to get the level of spending that it was spending in 1935 historically (under the New Deal, which in this game came about 1921). The US also has a substantial army, navy and air force, and those maintenance costs are going to add up very quickly.

Those extra points will go damn fast.

I was also thinking that at higher tech levels, the costs will increase as well (they have in real life after all).

an idea
10 points per 10 million people gives you all of the above plus free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working. Acts on economy the same as National Effort (as far as growth is concerned)

What does this mean GB?

What does this mean GB?

high social spending is a drag on the economy... only 1% growth (it is arguably even worse, but that is arguable).

Those extra points will go damn fast.
And they do go quick. I reserve the right to call for tweaking, but I say we go with this.

I assume we're still getting "free" points for civilian technological research, as well, and otherwise keeping scientific advancement vague.

Post the compiled rules on the first page, if you would. That would help a lot.

I'll have my budget for 1933 in a few minutes, most likely. I actually have seven unspent points! I'm thinking of blowing them on massive vanity projects like giant bronze statues and experimental architecture. Or maybe public broadcasting.