NationStates Jolt Archive

Parthini']If you did do it the history books would look more like:

"The Chinese felt that landing on the moon was more important than saving their own people. Unrest settled throughout China and a period of Chaos ensued much like the Warring States period."

Then my possible Facist ultra-nationalist government is simply gonna silence the unrest. ;)

Besides, GB said in the main thread that practically everything is up to the player when it comes to doing what they want with their nation. If Egypt can be so crazy to nuke Turkey then have the entirety of Egypt's Nile Valley and all civilization in Egypt flooded by radioactive water from a bombed Aswan Dam, then China can easily launch space missions (there's a lot ways around the tech 0 crap as I've already explained).

Yeah, the "Stickiness" is the two most important places and the places where all the research is. Not to mention where your rockets probably were being built.

Those engineers would be going to rebuild hospitals, powerplants, bridges, etc. And I'm pretty sure if everyone found out that while they are giving you as many points as possible, you are wasting points on Moon missions, your "propaganda" would start failing. Badly.

And I have a feeling the CSPS has bigger problems than sending China to the moon.

I see no reason why China would be able to get to the moon this year.

Anyways, that 1 point=1 billion is slightly ridiculous.

Then my possible Facist ultra-nationalist government is simply gonna silence the unrest. ;)

Besides, GB said in the main thread that practically everything is up to the player when it comes to doing what they want with their nation. If Egypt can be so crazy to nuke Turkey then have the entirety of Egypt's Nile Valley and all civilization in Egypt flooded by radioactive water from a bombed Aswan Dam, then China can easily launch space missions (there's a lot ways around the tech 0 crap as I've already explained).

It's up to the player what radical things can be done, barring technical issues.

Plus, I don't think the US Army is going to let China embarass them by sending a man to Space.

Parthini']Yeah, the "Stickiness" is the two most important places and the places where all the research is. Not to mention where your rockets probably were being built.

Those engineers would be going to rebuild hospitals, powerplants, bridges, etc. And I'm pretty sure if everyone found out that while they are giving you as many points as possible, you are wasting points on Moon missions, your "propaganda" would start failing. Badly.

I can easily blame the starvation on the withdrawal of British aid shipments to China. If this comes to light, I can simply say "China was able to fund everything, but now that Britain has withdrawn aid, China cannot afford to feed its people."

Besides, I can't just up and shift money *ALREADY* allocated to the space research into food. Money doesn't instantly grow food, nor does space research, rocket blueprints, electronics, etc. It'd be like turning lead (money) into gold (food) which isn't possible at all (perhaps not until futuristic nano-tech, but I digress).

Parthini']And I have a feeling the CSPS has bigger problems than sending China to the moon.

I see no reason why China would be able to get to the moon this year.

First, the CSPS has donated several of its comm satellites to cover Asia to provide as much communication as possible. So there will be an ability to communicate for space launches and such.

Second, I never said China will reach the Moon in 1964. China and the SCT will reach the moon in 1965 as planned prior to this whole nuke crap. The 24 points used will pretty much be used to "finish up" loose ends in Lunar Missions and Very Heavy Rocket technologies (China and the SCT is on year 4 out of 4 in these researches anyway)

Parthini']It's up to the player what radical things can be done, barring technical issues.

Plus, I don't think the US Army is going to let China embarass them by sending a man to Space.

Again, I never said China will reach the Moon in 1964, and the US is supposed to withdraw at the end of 1964.

Besides, the research is shared equally between *ALL* SCT nations, so even if the US interferes in China, the other SCT nations can finish the research this year (Japan, Philippines, Korea, etc.).

Besides, if you do want to get technical, here we go...

1. Technically, every nation in the SCT has access to the space technology, research, and projects that the ASA has (or is undertaking).

2. Technically, every nation in the SCT should be able to use the technologies the ASA is researching and developing- the beauty of technology sharing and "know-how", similiar to ESA sharing all of its tech with its members. Tech 7 should be able to use some Tech 7.5 technologies through tech trade, the same way the RL world operates (Tech 8+ nations or First World nations like RL US, UK, Europe, etc. potentially sharing tech like jets or such with Tech 7 nations like RL Middle East, India, South America, etc.)

3. Technically, the US hasn't declared war on China so technically China isn't obliged to surrender.

4. To prevent the SCT from succeeding in its Lunar project, the US will most likely have to declare war and invade EVERY nation in the SCT, and destroy EVERY space facility in the SCT. This problem will be worse for the US in many ways- for one thing, the remaining SCT space facilities are not military but civilian (no military forces stationed at them), having to invade nations not involved with the nuke stuff (India, Japan, Philippines, Korea, Burma, etc.), over-stretching the US military when domestic unrest is potentially ready to erupt any minute in the US, turning even FNS and UK and etc. aganist the US more for invading various nations willy-nilly just to prevent a Lunar mission, the US people not want another war especially after the atrocities committed by Strom Thurmond and Co... and so on.

5. Technically, the US will have to declare war on Japan, Korea, Philippines, India, Burma, etc. and an extremely poor excuse- "Oh, we declare war to prevent you from reaching the moon!" won't even hold up in the international community (even long-time US allies will probably think the US is crazy if the US does that flimsy war excuse thing).

In short, if the US tries to screw around with the SCT space program, the US won't be successful, and will only serve to ruin the US even further... Such as turning more people aganist it (globally and domestically... think Hippie movement on steroids), lead to a possible full nuclear war, more domestic unrest in the US, further unify the world aganist the US, destroy the US occupying military through gurriella actions among 1+ billion people, and a plethora of other problems for the US.


So technically, China and the SCT *WILL* succeed at the researches done in 1964, and there's nothing the US can do to stop it short of a third nuclear strike (after the first strike, then the 2nd strike that took out China's missiles), war that probably will turn the FNS, UK, etc. aganist the US 100%, etc.

Parthini'](Not sure if this is the right place but I'm lazy...)

Korea is going though a crisis of it's own and the Japanese going to space first would defeat the purpose of China's plan.


Yeah , I'm going through a crisis, but Korea is overall getting off light. Besides, my builds look pretty good considering....

If we do National Effort, do we just take away 10%? I'm so confused :(

OOC: Just face it Parthini, we're gonna get a spacewaffe before you and you don't like it :p

Anyway the ASA is perfectly capable of continuing to function and launch missions.
Our satellites can be launched this year from Panay in The Phillipines. The Lunar missions can be launched from Japan or Tibet.

The facilities listed on the space thread are only the most important ones, many less imporatant facilities of the same types are scattered all across Asia.

And actually Hat Yai is almost totally unscated, the only major military base in the vicinty was the Phuket naval yards and that was well north of the Kra canal.
Unless the Ameicans nuked every last border security post and barracks in Indochina I find it very doubtful the Hat Yai suffered much more than EMP and fallout.

Economic news

The USAE and China are effectively tech level 0 for the short term as their economies have essentially collapsed at the moment. Essentially that reflects severe social disorder and chaos. A Real Life example is Somalia.

This will change as recovery begins.

In other news, stock markets continue to free fall once opened, and a run on the banks occurs as panic sets in as it becomes clear that 1/4 of the Worlds GDP was destroyed in day. News of fighting in the Aegean doesn't help matters, nor does the realization that the US represents nearly 1/4 of the worlds GDP as well, and its dangerous, unsettled and apparently in chaos too.

In game terms, figure a massive loss in production this year. No growth at all either. Production centers don't go away, they just aren't producing as much because demand is busy collapsing.

In game terms.. for the Crash of 64
Production centers produce .5 production points at reduced spending, 1 production point for normal spending and 1.5 production points for National Effort.

Commerce and tourism is quartered (worth 25%).

Economics as all about the psychology of the market, and right now, people are scared shitless.


Parth, look here.

OOC: Just face it Parthini, we're gonna get a spacewaffe before you and you don't like it :p

Anyway the ASA is perfectly capable of continuing to function and launch missions.
Our satellites can be launched this year from Panay in The Phillipines. The Lunar missions can be launched from Japan or Tibet.

The facilities listed on the space thread are only the most important ones, many less imporatant facilities of the same types are scattered all across Asia.

And actually Hat Yai is almost totally unscated, the only major military base in the vicinty was the Phuket naval yards and that was well north of the Kra canal.
Unless the Ameicans nuked every last border security post and barracks in Indochina I find it very doubtful the Hat Yai suffered much more than EMP and fallout.

And since the USEA and China insisted they didn't need the money, I shunted those funds to getting everything in the ASA back to code.

Yeah, I don't like it b/c It's bullshit. If the Soviet Union during it's peak wasn't able to do it, I don't see how the SCT which is at one of it's lows would be able to.

Parthini']Yeah, I don't like it b/c It's bullshit. If the Soviet Union during it's peak wasn't able to do it, I don't see how the SCT which is at one of it's lows would be able to.

Because for some reason everybody wants to give us aid and suddenly we have more points/money than we know what to do with, thats why.
On top of that the SCT has a much more powerful economy than the Soviet Union ever did.

(Plus they were useless stalinist commies who didn't have a fucking clue.)

German Build 1964
Population: 96 Million (2% growth)
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending NEIN
Production: 118, 16 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 34 shipping units (7 surplus), Improved Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 5 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 5 Kiel, 5 Hannover, 10 Berlin, 5 Nuremburg, 10 Frankfurt, 5 Mainz, 5 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 5 Saarbrucken, 5 Stuttgart, 10 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 10 Vienna, 5 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 5 Posen, 5 Innsbruck, 5 Lubeck, 5 Magdeburg, 4 Heidelburg, 4 Bremerhaven

Regular Spending: 159 Industry+16 Nuke Power+14 Commerce+3 tourist=192 points

Maintenance (97):
*reserve* 30 Regular Garrisons-free
6 Mechanized Inf-3
3 Reserve Mech Inf Corps-9
10 Armored-4
4 Reserve Armored-2
4 Special Forces Paratrooper-4
6 Special Forces Light Infantry-6
14 Mech Flak-7
4 Reserve Mech Flak-2
4 Mech Artillery-2

3 HQ-3

47 regular Pilots-free
5 regular Pilots-free

24 TA 202-12
6 DO-400 Bombers-3
1 DO-400 AEW-.5
8 DO-500 Transport-4
1 DO-500 Converted Spy Plane-.5
4 Transport Helicopter-1
3 Cargo Helicopter-.75

5 Heavy Air Wings-10

4 Arado Ar 232-*Desert Storage in Arabia*
6 Do 337-*Desert Storage in Arabia*
18 TA200-*Desert Storage in Arabia*
11 BAC Lightning-*Desert Storage in Arabia*

4 CVAN-8 points
2 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-2 points
11 Destroyers-5.5

5 Heavy Missle Cruisers-2.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (31):
Level 3 for 94 Million-31 points

Civilian Builds (66):

Civil Defense-9 points

Electronics Research (Year 7/10)-5 points

Improved Spy Satellite Network-6 points
Improved Communications Satellite Network-3 points

ESA Research-4 points

3rd MOL refitting-10 points

2 Space Plane (X-15) Suborbital-Free
9 Space Plane (X-20) Orbital Resupply-27 points

Operation Starcatcher-4 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

0% growth-0 factories

Military Builds (0):

Parthini']
Operation Starcatcher-4 points


*Gulp* don't like the sound of that at all....

The French and Balkan Aid Commitees are concerned at the Chinese decision to continue funding the space program even though the costs may provide for another 12 million or so people, if the Chinese government feels that these are surplus - or that aid from Europe is taken for granted- then we shall be withdrawing 24 points from our relief program since they are not needed.

The French and Balkan Aid Commitees are concerned at the Chinese decision to continue funding the space program even though the costs may provide for another 12 million or so people, if the Chinese government feels that these are surplus - or that aid from Europe is taken for granted- then we shall be withdrawing 24 points from our relief program since they are not needed.

All comments and speeches made by Ato or his many alter egos in this thread can be considered OOC for all game purposes and courtroom monkey knife fights.

Ato's comments and name are registered trademarks and property of Ato-Sara .Inc

:p

I'm still going to try to reach the moon for an enormous pyschological boost / weapon.

"We the Chinese have been decimated by nuclear weapons and are in the midst of a global depression and economic crash. However, we are an extremely strong willed people to become the first ones on the Moon. If we can reach the Moon in the midst of a terrible tragedy, the Chinese people can do anything once we put our minds to it."

Besides, that 24 points is coming out of the food stuff that would otherwise feed the 50 - 100 million doomed people anyway. 12 million people is basically chump change when a nation has over 400 million people- like 1 million people would be chump change to the US in RL.

EDIT:

The USEA is wasted so China has to take up the space research unless Japan, Korea, and India contributes points towards the Asian Space Program.

I refuse to give up my dream of landing Asians on the moon. This is even more important than before, as it will send an extremely powerful message to the world and will resonate throughout history for untold generations...

"China got beat down four times, and got devastated by nuclear war, yet it was able to pull itself together and become the first Asians and people to land on the Moon. If China can do that, then it shows how resilient the Chinese people and humans can be!"

Granted, Ato said nothing but this is a direct quote from Sharina. So...

The French and Balkan Aid Commitees are concerned at the Chinese decision to continue funding the space program even though the costs may provide for another 12 million or so people, if the Chinese government feels that these are surplus - or that aid from Europe is taken for granted- then we shall be withdrawing 24 points from our relief program since they are not needed.

OOC:

You and most Europeans don't know China is still funding the space program at this time. Every remark about my continuing the space program was all OOC remarks.

For all intents and purposes IC'wise, China is skimming a few million dollars here and there to fund the space program (something like 0.05 to 0.1 points- a very tiny bit- out of every 1 point of aid provided), and claims of corruption and such are used to cover the tiny "skims" of money. Considering China is getting something like 300+ points of aid, this miniscule "skim" thing won't be too hard to pull off, considering the corruption excuse will be very plausible and believable IC'wise.

Besides, most of the Chinese research has / is moved to remote locations like Tibet or to allied nations like Philippines and Japan until 1965 at least, for several reasons. First is to reduce public awareness and exposure of such an endeavour, second is to reduce the chance of foreign spies finding out, and third is to make it more difficult for the anti-space people to do anything about it.

Think Area 51 in RL on a temporary basis (Tibet).

OOC: but still it would be unethical and unrealistic of us to suspend our space resarch just to pay for the Chinese space research

EDIT: didn't see you there Sharina, wait till I reply.

Sharina... Uh... No.

You put that stuff in quotes without designating how it was said. Thus it was a general statement, and the French would know just as much as anyone else. Not to mention satellites would pick up on you building a space missle...

OOC: but still it would be unethical and unrealistic of us to suspend our space resarch just to pay for the Chinese space research

EDIT: didn't see you there Sharina, wait till I reply.

OOC:

But I doubt the USA, UK, and Germany are suspending *their* space programs.

OOC: Figured A response; since the unfortunate French President went down over the Tibet, while searching for him I should notice the activity in the Area, or shouldn't I?

Parthini']Sharina... Uh... No.

You put that stuff in quotes without designating how it was said. Thus it was a general statement, and the French would know just as much as anyone else. Not to mention satellites would pick up on you building a space missle...

OOC;

For god's sakes.

Must I repeat myself yet again? China isn't building any space missiles or rockets to launch men into space or launching Lunar missions until 1965. If I had the tech finished in 1963, then yes, the whole "satellites picking up space missiles being built" thing would be plausible, but the sats and such won't pick up China's Very Heavy Rocket construction until late 1964 or early 1965, because by then the Very Heavy Rocket RESEARCH will be finished.

Also, you can clearly see the context of my posts to be OOC. I usually do IC stuff in the third person (like "China does this or that") or first person in italics (international statements from Chiang Kai Shek) or conferences.

Unless otherwise RP'ed or specified, my posts in the Economic thread are purely OOC- after all, the economic thread *is* an OOC thread after all.

OOC: Figured A response; since the unfortunate French President went down over the Tibet, while searching for him I should notice the activity in the Area, or shouldn't I?

Yes, thats possible. However, Tibet is still pretty big with lots of mountainous terrain, caves, canyons, valleys, etc. You might get lucky and you might not.

Besides, the real space activity won't kick up until late 1964 or early 1965 as I don't have any Very Heavy Rockets OR Lunar Modules built yet (I have to finish research in order to construct them), so your troops might think the base might be a remote Chinese outpost or something at first glance.

OOC:

But I doubt the USA, UK, and Germany are suspending *their* space programs.

US is still flying missions to fix Yankee Station, repair damage to satellites. Lunar program is ready, but on hold for the moment

by the way, US aid, when it begins in March, will be directly handled by the US Military and local Chinese government officials. Oddly enough, the Chinese national government will continue to have 'communications problems' in the area under US control.

However, we are putting the cart before the horse. Its actually still February and little aid has actually started reaching China yet because of organizational start up time requirements, massive distances and people waiting for the fall out to settle (at least the immediate fall out). As China has civil defense, I am assuming for the first month or so after the strike, people are mostly in their shelters eating emergency food supplies set aside for this event. Same for the USEA

As far as the SCT space program is concerned. Chinese and USEA research comes to a halt with the attack. Korean and Japanese research is almost certainly halted while they deal with the fall out. After a couple of months, they can restart programs, but at least intitially, nothing is happening.

Seriously, it would take a considerable amount of time to find surviving technicians and scientists, retrieve data and equipment from devastated China and USEA, put communications networks back together, relocate people and equipment that needs to be moved out of contiminated areas, and generally get things back on track. My opinion is that sometime in 1964 this is all accomplished, which will allow the space program to restart in 1965.

The SCT space tracking system suffered catastrophic damage by the way as great big chunks of it were knocked out by EMP. It will have to be replaced too.

As far as the SCT space program is concerned. Chinese and USEA research comes to a halt with the attack. Korean and Japanese research is almost certainly halted while they deal with the fall out. After a couple of months, they can restart programs, but at least intitially, nothing is happening.

Seriously, it would take a considerable amount of time to find surviving technicians and scientists, retrieve data and equipment from devastated China and USEA, put communications networks back together, relocate people and equipment that needs to be moved out of contiminated areas, and generally get things back on track. My opinion is that sometime in 1964 this is all accomplished, which will allow the space program to restart in 1965.

The SCT space tracking system suffered catastrophic damage by the way as great big chunks of it were knocked out by EMP. It will have to be replaced too.


Months we can deal with, years no.

The SCT space tracking network was in itself huge, it covered the globe using antennea mounted on ships and land, comparitvely a small but significatn portion of it was destroyed.
All the ships are okay. The ones in Pakistan, The Phillipines, Burma, Japan and Korea are all fine. The ones in Indochina and China were all knocked out (Except for the ones in remote Tibet) In reality the tracking network is certainly damaged but in no way destroyed.

OOC: oh in case I don't get lucky: The French and Balkan aid comitees begin to set up shop in various damaged areas of the China (as determined in coordination with the Chinese Government).

Several well know Biologists and Genetic Experts have been called upon to help in the matter, several of the more prominant ask the Chinese government if permission may be granted for observance of the effects of the radiation on local flora and fauna.

by the way, US aid, when it begins in March, will be directly handled by the US Military and local Chinese government officials. Oddly enough, the Chinese national government will continue to have 'communications problems' in the area under US control.

However, we are putting the cart before the horse. Its actually still February and little aid has actually started reaching China yet because of organizational start up time requirements, massive distances and people waiting for the fall out to settle (at least the immediate fall out). As China has civil defense, I am assuming for the first month or so after the strike, people are mostly in their shelters eating emergency food supplies set aside for this event. Same for the USEA

As far as the SCT space program is concerned. Chinese and USEA research comes to a halt with the attack. Korean and Japanese research is almost certainly halted while they deal with the fall out. After a couple of months, they can restart programs, but at least intitially, nothing is happening.

Seriously, it would take a considerable amount of time to find surviving technicians and scientists, retrieve data and equipment from devastated China and USEA, put communications networks back together, relocate people and equipment that needs to be moved out of contiminated areas, and generally get things back on track. My opinion is that sometime in 1964 this is all accomplished, which will allow the space program to restart in 1965.

The SCT space tracking system suffered catastrophic damage by the way as great big chunks of it were knocked out by EMP. It will have to be replaced too.

Actually, the CSPS has donated a few of their communication satellites, which will be of help in restoring communications (enough to get things going).

The ASA still has sites not effected by the EMP or nuke strikes- like ones deep in Tibet and Mongolia (insulated by the mountains and deserts), or in Philippines and Burma.

In addition, research is shared equally among all the members of the SCT- meaning even India and Burma have the same access to tech and research materials as China and USEA prior to the nuke strikes. Besides, back-up of all research is likely done in all major SCT nations for situations such as this. I mean, if all the SCT shares the research, if one or two members get wiped out, the research can continue in the other nations using the back-ups and research material already "copied and distributed" among all SCT nations.

OOC: But wouldn't it take time to restart the coordinated system, you have to rebuild your tracking systems for one thing to cover the full area, you have to assess the damage done, you have to get a whole new set of technicans and brief every single one of them (of course if you can find any who are not starving to death or objects on puting the space program before the populace) and other things.

Also when the CSPS give you the communication satelites, does this mean that the CSPS have no Satelite Communications?

OOC: But wouldn't it take time to restart the coordinated system, you have to rebuild your tracking systems for one thing to cover the full area, you have to assess the damage done, you have to get a whole new set of technicans and brief every single one of them (of course if you can find any who are not starving to death or objects on puting the space program before the populace) and other things.

Also when the CSPS give you the communication satelites, does this mean that the CSPS have no Satelite Communications?


No it means they have directed one or two satellites to cover us, which means we have a ver poor satelite communications network.

OOC: But wouldn't it take time to restart the coordinated system, you have to rebuild your tracking systems for one thing to cover the full area, you have to assess the damage done, you have to get a whole new set of technicans and brief every single one of them (of course if you can find any who are not starving to death or objects on puting the space program before the populace) and other things.

Also when the CSPS give you the communication satelites, does this mean that the CSPS have no Satelite Communications?

Actually, the CSPS didn't give Asia ALL their satellites, just a few (probably like 2 to 4 of them)

by the way China, Mongolia got hammered hard.. you had a lot of troops there and planes and the US was targetting both

Tibet, not so much as those troops were in valleys and effects were localized. Mongolia however is tabletop.

That's it. China and USEA still get aid. There's still a lot leftover for the ASA (and I'm not doubting it has resources left), but if I do this, China and USEA has a chance in the long run.

plus all of Japan's aid money next year.

Japan offers to send 4 Light Infantry Divisions, 3 Mechanized Infantry and 1 Armored Division to China to help them in their time of need.

OOC: why did Elephantum attack China? He'll lose eventually and now he's on a possible two-front war

plus all of Japan's aid money next year.

Japan offers to send 4 Light Infantry Divisions, 3 Mechanized Infantry and 1 Armored Division to China to help them in their time of need.

OOC: why did Elephantum attack China? He'll lose eventually and now he's on a possible two-front war

he didn't, he moved in to Mongolia to provide disaster relief. As there are no surviving Chinese forces in the area, and no one else can get there before he can, his forces (1 HQ unit) arrives unopposed and begins setting up for disaster relief efforts.

That's it. China and USEA still get aid. There's still a lot leftover for the ASA (and I'm not doubting it has resources left), but if I do this, China and USEA has a chance in the long run.

Wow! 600 points were raised in addition to USEA relief? I always thought we were going to fall short or somthing, a nice thing though.

Wow! 600 points were raised in addition to USEA relief? I always thought we were going to fall short or somthing, a nice thing though.

Eh? exactly how many points have been raised for us?

I don't know exactly, Hey who's keeping count anyway?

I don't know exactly, Hey who's keeping count anyway?

I actually only need 70 points total. China may need a bit more because he can't feed all his people.

It's really nice how you guys are crippling your economies for us, but it mostly isn't needed.

by the way China, Mongolia got hammered hard.. you had a lot of troops there and planes and the US was targetting both

Tibet, not so much as those troops were in valleys and effects were localized. Mongolia however is tabletop.

Actually, I don't recall stationing large military numbers or aircraft in Mongolia.

Actually, I don't recall stationing large military numbers or aircraft in Mongolia.

I used your military districts to provide my target lists... that does include Inner Mongolia. Outer Mongolia didn't get hit as much (the actual nation of Mongolia)

I don't know exactly, Hey who's keeping count anyway?

I am trying to keep track actually

http://www.gesource.ac.uk/worldguide/maps2/963_a.jpg

According to this terrain map, roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of Mongolia is mountainous (all the wrinkly terrain on the map).

Exactly how was everyone able to come up with 600 spare points? Granted, I have a huge military, but I am also one of the more economically powerful nations, and unless the US spent all of its money on China, I don't think its possible with the 50% reduction of industries.

Parthini']Exactly how was everyone able to come up with 600 spare points? Granted, I have a huge military, but I am also one of the more economically powerful nations, and unless the US spent all of its money on China, I don't think its possible with the 50% reduction of industries.

HQ units, air transport units and cargo helicopter units all have point values as far as assistance goes... read the Twilight War thread, its all explained and also why

Ah. I missed a lot apparently.

OMFG NATIONAL EFFORT!!!??!?!?!?!


Federation of South American Nations Budget 1964
Population: 44,869,000
Income: 360
Domestic Production: 264 (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 80 (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 4
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/Peacetime=3%, Level 5 social spending= -2%, +1% from Pan America Treaty)

Energy: Requires 1 more Oil point.
6 Oil (47 points in Military, 96 points for commerce)
1 Coal (Exported to Any Nation)
4 Natural Gas (Exported to China)
2 Hydro Electric (Exported to Brazil)
11 Nuclear (220 points for domestic coverage, 176 used.)

Constant Costs - 133 points
Military Upkeep - 78
Intelligence Service - 5 points
Social Services (Level V) - 44 points
Nuclear Improvement - 6 points

Government Projects - 206 points
2 x Oil Points - 2pts
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 7 of 10.. 30 / 50 points)
First Generation ABM - 12 points (72 of 72, 6 of 6 years)
99 Points of Aid to China** SEE BELOW
70 Points of Aid to Korea
1 x HQ Unit - 10 points
2 x C5 Transports - 8 points

Surplus - (0) points
Empty!!


**IMPORTANT**
1 HQ unit will be sent to China along with 2 Transport Aircraft, and 4 Helicopter Units. Thus, FNS is sending 131 Points in Aid to China.

This year, 70 points will be sent to Korea, and the following year the HQ and two new transports will allow an additional 20 points to either Korea or China depending on who needs it more. If the USEA or USAE or whatever the hell you are needs help, ask.

Artitsa, you forgot to include the 50% reduction of your production and the 75% reduction of your trade and tourism. Basically, you have way too many points.

Do to events in Egypt and Turkey, The French and Balkan Aid Commissions will be transferring 30 points (out of 63) to recovery efforts in Egypt, following the NUclear Exchange, however the Rest of the Economic and Millitary aid will remain in China.

The French Light Marine Brigade is getting Ready to be transfered to Egypt to help efforts aswell.

And last I saw it was only 10%. Someone want to tell me why this 50% and 75% happened? And what facking effect any economic control has? I did everything a government can do to repair a recession/depression.

And last I saw it was only 10%. Someone want to tell me why this 50% and 75% happened? And what facking effect any economic control has? I did everything a government can do to repair a recession/depression.

takes into account the physical destruction of nearly 1/4 of the worlds GDP, the general disruption caused by World outcry against the US (another 1/4 of the worlds GDP), the further destruction that occured in Turkey, Egypt, and the Scandic Union, fighting that is occuring in eastern and northern Europe, and an apparent complete and catastrophic change in the world order in a mere month.

This kind of thing causes a Great Depression

Scandic Union
Build 1964
Population-28 million
51 prod centers(21 EMP hardened)-
Kiel 5(Moved to Scandic side of border), Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5(Destroyed), Petrograd 5, Helsinki 5, Tallin 5, Murmansk 5, Malmo 1
34 shipping units
5 airlines
7 Nuclear power plant
102 points Prod centers, 37.5 points commerce, 0 points airlines(Pilots called up), 1.5 points tourism, 7 nuclear, 7 oil, 5 natural gas, 5 communications sat network-172.5 points


59.5 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
3 points-Nuke program
5 points-microcomputers(5/10)
5 points-intel agency
6 points-Improved Spy sat
3 points-improved communications satellite network(For whole alliance)
2 points- N Cyprus, fortification/base construction
12 points-Space program
12 points-ABM system(60/72)
12 points-Japan, buy 4 Mirage V units
12 points-2 SSN’s
5 points-food
12.5 points-5 Kfir units
8.5 left



Space Program-64 points
6 points-science satellites
2 points-improved science sat research(done)
36 points-9 Space plane launches, 18 CSPS pilots
5 points-Space tracking network
3 points-Early warning satellite network
12 points-Skylab(12/24)



Energy needs-12
6 nuclear
1 hydro
3 oil
2 natural gas


Turkey
Population: 26 million
Tech level: 7.5
Income (national effort)(Prod centers:22) Ankara 8(Destroyed), Smyrnia 8, Izmir 8(Destroyed), Konya 8, Samsun 4, Sinope 2, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 27 shipping units, 5 nuclear power, 2 airport, 3 points comm. net=92
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
Intel agency-5 points
5 MIG25, 3 Tu22, 1 ETU95(shared by all Turkics) 1 gunship, 9 expert pilots, 1 regular pilot, coast guard with 20 corvettes, 2 HQ, 4 light infantry divisions (Highly trained), 4 mech divisions.(highly trained) 2 armored division(Highly trained), 3 Mountain Brigades(Highly trained), 3 Marine Brigades(Highly Trained) 2 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear AA cruiser, 1 amphib group-28

Purchase:55.75+3 from Ukraine
2 points-civil defense
5 points-microcomputers(1/10)
2 points-comm net
12 points-space program
1 point-oil point
3 points-1 shipping
2 points-1 gunship
2 points-1 regular pilot
24 points-1 prod center
3 points-garrison
4 points-2 average pilots
2 points-2 light infantry divisions





Central Asian Republic
Population: 15 million
Tech level: 7
Income (National Effort): (prod centers:29)Tashkent 8, Alma Ata 8, Karagundu 5, Astana 5, Pavlodar 3, 1 national airline, 4 international airline, 1 airport(Tashkent), 4 oil, 6 gas, 4 shipping(for Caspian Oil)=80.5 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points,
1 HQ, 2 armored divisions(highly trained) 2 mech divisions(highly trained) 2 infantry corps(HT), 5 pilots(expert), 2 MIG25, 1 Mirage V, 1 garrison unit(HT), 2 Tu22, 3 gunships, 3 regular pilots=15.25 points
Intelligence service 5

Buy: 57.25
1 points civil defense
5 points-electronics(5/5)
2 points-improved comm. net
10 points-space
10 points-H.Q.
4 points-4 light infantry
8 points-2 mech divisions
17.25 left

-------------------------------------
Azerbaijan
Population: 4 million
Tech level: 7
Income: (Normal Spending)8 prod center, 10 oil points, 10 natural gas, plus 1 national airline, 4 international airline, 1 shipping=32 points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point,
Intel Agency-5 points
1 MIG25, 1 Mirage V, 1 Tu22, 3 expert pilot, 2 highly trained flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 highly trained infantry corps- 11.5 points.
Build:14.5
5 points-electronics(2/5)
6 points-pipeline(2/5)
3.5 left



Kashgaria
Population: 7 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending)(Prod centers:13) Urumchi 7 , Kashgar 6, 2 national airline, 3 international airline 1 oil, 1 gas,1 nuclear=24.5 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 1 MIG 25, 1 expert pilot, 4 garrison units 2 point.

Buy:20.5
5 points-electronics(2/5)
7 points-prod center(11 left)
8 points-2 mech division




Polish Budget 1964
Population: 46 million
Tech Level 7.5
9 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)
Production centers: (National Effort)(92 prod centers)Warsaw 7, Lodz 7, Krakow 7, Katowice 7, Brest-Litovsk 7, Lvov 7, Riga 7, Lublin 7, Vilnius 4, Kaunas 4, Memel 4, Kaliningrad 4, 30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz), 9 nuclear, 1 ethanol, 5.5 comm net=217.75
Level III social services: 13.8 points.
Intel Agency: 5 points
Military Maintenance: 65.5 points (2 HQ, 9 highly trained armored divisions, 5 HT infantry corps, 6 HT mech divisions, 2 mech arty(Highly Trained) 4 SF airborne Brigade, 8 flak units, 15 MIG 25, 6 Tu22, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 1 Tu 107, 1 ETU95, 6 gunship, 4 transport helo, 1 asw helo 23 expert pilots, 14 regular pilots, 3 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear heavy missile cruiser, 1 nuclear AA cruiser, 4 lv 7.5 nuclear attack sub, 1 CVAN, 1 Heavy air wing).

Spending:132.5+17.5 last year=150
4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-microelectronics(3/10)
3 points-improved comm sat net
12 points-space program
20 points-China
12.5 points-5 Kfir fighters
10 points-5 pilots
6 points-2 garrison units
24 points-calling up various CSPS mothballed ships
53 left




Energy needs-12
9 nuclear
1 ethanol
2 oil(from CSPS)




Ukrainian Budget 1964

Population: 43 Million
Tech level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 4%
Income (National Effort): (86 prod centers, 82/86 EMP hardened) Kiev 13, Stalino 13, Dneipopetrovsk 13, Odessa 13, Kharkov 13, Sevastpool 13, 30 shipping units, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminal, 5.5 comm. network, 4 hydroelectric, 9 nuclear (SU built), 2 coal, 2 natural gas, 2 oil (newly discovered) 2 ethanol=243 points
Level 3 Social Spending: 12 Points
Military Maintenance: (64 points, 2 HQ, 2 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 5 mech flak divisions, 11 highly trained armored divisions, 8 highly trained mech divisions, 4 mech arty, 16 MiG 25’s, 5 Tu 22s, Tu 107, 2 ETU95, 8 regular pilots, 6 gunship, 1 transport, 1 SF airborne Brigade 23 elite pilots, 10 destroyers, 5 nuclear attack subs, 40 corvettes, 2 nuclear power AA cruisers, 2 nuclear power heavy missile cruisers)


Spending:167
5 points-microcomputers industry(4/10)
3 points-improved comm. Network
20 points- Joint space program
20 points-aid to Belarus
12 points-emp harden 4 centers
10 points-Caucasian republics
3 points-to Turkey
12 points-4 MiG23
82 points left

OMFG NATIONAL EFFORT!!!??!?!?!?!


Federation of South American Nations Budget 1964
Population: 44,869,000
Income: 192
Domestic Production: 88 x 2 for national effort (50% reduction) (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 15pts (70% reduction) (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 4
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/Peacetime=3%, Level 5 social spending= -2%, +1% from Pan America Treaty)

Energy: Requires 1 more Oil point.
6 Oil (47 points in Military, 96 points for commerce)
1 Coal (Exported to Any Nation)
4 Natural Gas (Exported to China)
2 Hydro Electric (Exported to Brazil)
11 Nuclear (220 points for domestic coverage, 176 used.)
(8 Oil Points in Reserve)


Constant Costs - 133 points
Military Upkeep - 78
Intelligence Service - 5 points
Social Services (Level V) - 44 points
Nuclear Improvement - 6 points

Government Projects - 42 points
2 x Oil Points - 2pts
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 7 of 10.. 30 / 50 points)
First Generation ABM - 12 points (72 of 72, 6 of 6 years)
2 x HQ Unit - 10 points
3 x C5 Transports - 8 points

Surplus - (+3) points
3 Points!!


**IMPORTANT**
1 HQ unit will be sent to China along with 2 Transport Aircraft, and 4 Helicopter Units.

Domestic Production: 88 x 2 for national effort (50% reduction) (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 15pts (70% reduction) (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 4

Under depression conditions Market economies at national effort give you 1.5 points per prod centre (50% reduction, usually it's 3). It's a 75% reduction and satellites only give you a 10% bonus (its not cumulative with lower tech satellites). Tourism is reduced by 75% as well.

Gawd I hate you guys.

Federation of South American Nations Budget 1964
Population: 44,869,000
Income: 160
Domestic Production: 88 x 2 for national effort (50% reduction) (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 15pts (70% reduction) (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 1 (75% decrease from 4)
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/Peacetime=3%, Level 5 social spending= -2%, +1% from Pan America Treaty)

Energy: Requires 1 more Oil point.
6 Oil (47 points in Military, 96 points for commerce)
1 Coal (Exported to Any Nation)
4 Natural Gas (Exported to China)
2 Hydro Electric (Exported to Brazil)
11 Nuclear (220 points for domestic coverage, 176 used.)
(8 Oil Points in Reserve)


Constant Costs - 133 points
Military Upkeep - 78
Intelligence Service - 5 points
Social Services (Level V) - 44 points
Nuclear Improvement - 6 points

Government Projects - 27 points
2 x Oil Points - 2pts
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 7 of 10.. 30 / 50 points)
First Generation ABM - 12 points (72 of 72, 6 of 6 years)

Surplus - (+3) points
3 Points!!

OOC
Fallout damage
game effect: production, already hit by the Crash of 64, is reduced by another 6%, commerce by another 10% and no tourism to either Japan or Korea this year. Death rates will increase for the next ten years, reducing population growth to 1% or half of that if population growth is below 1%.

1% of the population of Japan and Korea will die this year due to radiation exposure or vulnerability because of chronic health conditions. Due to excellent public health and civil defense systems, both nations will escape relatively lightly.

plus the effects of the nuclear autumn in the northern hemisphere and the effects of the Crash of 64

Additional Fallout damage
Turkey: Production completely destroyed in Ankarra and Izmer, Turkey is at national effort this year and will go wartime next year. In addition, 3 shipping units destroyed in port, plus the national airline is converted into a transport unit for disaster relief missions (along with some surviving military transports). Tourism of course goes away for the forseeable future. In addition, 1% of surviving population will die from radiation sickness this year (usually the people with chronic health conditions).

Egypt: No production this year at all. All production centers except Gaza are destroyed. Suez Canal is not passable to shipping at this time as craters have blocked both ends (craters are deeper then the dredging, and lips of the craters extend past the previous water level... figure 10 points to rebuild the canal, which cannot be carried out until 1965). Needless to say, no hydroelectric power from Egypt either.

Scandic Union: all production centers at Oslo destroyed. North Sea oil production curtailed for duration of conventional fighting in North Sea. Depending on operations, 1 or more oil points may be destroyed (representing damage to production facilities, not damage to the oil). In addition to previous agricultural hits caused by Nuclear Autumn and damage to economy from the Crash of 64, Scandic Union will have to spend 5 points to buy food to make up for a serious agricultural shortfall as well as damage to farmland and cattle caused by the destruction of Oslo and subsequent radiation contimanation of nearby farmland.

Revised Builds:

Scandic Union Oslo 5,



Turkey
Population: 26 million
Tech level: 7.5
Ankara 8, Smyrnia 8, Izmir 8, Konya 8,

you do know that Smyrnia and Izmir are the same place right?

How long until Suez City and Port Said are habitable?

Crash of 64 special rules

Governments can attempt to deal with the situation in several ways
1. National Effort (already explained) Keynesian pump priming in an effort to keep people employed. Also available for Command economies.
2. Wartime economy (available for US, Greece, Turkey, Ukraine as they are technically or actually at war). China and the USAE will be able to do this in 1965 assuming they have a government in place and other issues, like the famine are dealt with.
3. Wage and Price controls (look up Richard M. Nixon's Presidency). This will halt economic damage at so that production is as follows:
Normal Spending provides only 1.5 points instead of 2. Cut spending is not available as the government still needs its revenue to keep other things going and cuts would undermine the purpose of wage and price controls. After 3 years however some social unrest will ocur. In addition, no growth, and tourism and commerce continue to suffer the Crash penalties already explained.

Special famine rules: If a famine occurs, population loss begins after four months unless 1 point of economic aid or government aid is spent for every 500,000 people. It is possible to feed some but not all.

Year without a summer rule:
A huge amount of dust, ash and smoke was generated by what was essentially the nuclear carpet bombing of China and Indochina. Nearly 200 megatons in all. This means that nations north of the Tropic of Cancer will suffer significant crop losses. Nations that are tech level 7 or better will lose 10% of their production this year (reflecting damage to the agricultural sector) on top of other losses already indicated. China and Indochina will not suffer further damage (as their losses are already factored in). Nations tech level 6 or lower will suffer a famine, with 20% of their population at risk of starvation. This doesn't become apparent until June when suddenly people realize that spring is very late.

So you shouldn't factor into your builds, as after all, you don't know about it yet.

It also becomes apparent that spring is noticably and worrisomely drier then usual, and so is the summer and fall. On the plus side, hurricane season is particularly mild this year in the Northern Hemisphere

wartime production by the way is 4 points per production center under current conditions

Incidently, the US is under wartime economy, but its effective spending is unchanged as it is also at the limit of its own energy resources without burning coal.

you do know that Smyrnia and Izmir are the same place right?

I do now.

Didn't notice that.

Parthini']How long until Suez City and Port Said are habitable?

1965 at the earliest due to continued fallout from the Egyptian missile fields, which were in the Eastern Desert of Egypt, just due east of Cairo, and fall out is particularly heavy from that area because ground burst nuclear weapons of large size were used. Neither city actually exists anymore, and are marked by craters approximately 5 kilometers across.

And how much will it cost to rebuild those cities?

Parthini']And how much will it cost to rebuild those cities?

Billions of dollars I believe, considering that all the buildings are gone, and the cities themselves have to be built from the ground up, plus gotta clean the radiation as well.

Figures, but how many points will that be?

rebuilding cities from the ground up will require some thought.. don't expect an answer quickly on that one

Could someone help me with the Arab Federation builds? Last I could find was from '62 and I figure due to the civil war all new builds were going towards each sides war effort.

[quote=Arab Federation Builds)
Arab Federation Build 1962
Population: 7 Million
Tech Level: 6
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Cut Spending 5% +1% Arab League
Production: 4 Baghdad, 2 Damman, 3 Riyadh, 1 Ha'il, 1 Hofuf, 17 shipping units, 2 international airline, 2 national airline, 3 surplus oil, 1 Tourism (Baghdad)

11 industry+25 commerce+15 oil+1 tourism=52 points

Spending:

Military (16):
2 Highly Trained Garrison-1
1 Highly Trained Armored Divison-.75
4 Highly Trained Light Infantry-2
2 Highly Trained Artillery-1

4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
4 TA 200-2

1 Coastal Patrol-.25

Intelligence Service-5 points

Upgrade Artillery to Mechanized-3 points

Domestic (18):
Level 5 Spending-7 points

Improving transportation-10 points

8 points-Tech level 7 research

Growth - 1 Factory

10 points to Arab League


Energy:
21 oil
5 Natural gas

used
1 natural gas
3 oil

exported
1 oil (Germany)
2 oil (UR)
[/quote]

Gawd I hate you guys.

Federation of South American Nations Budget 1964
Population: 44,869,000
Income: 160 + 25 from ******* *****
Domestic Production: 88 x 2 for national effort (50% reduction) (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 15pts (70% reduction) (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 1 (75% decrease from 4)
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/Peacetime=3%, Level 5 social spending= -2%, +1% from Pan America Treaty)

Energy: Requires 1 more Oil point.
6 Oil (47 points in Military, 96 points for commerce)
1 Coal (Exported to Any Nation)
4 Natural Gas (Exported to China)
2 Hydro Electric (Exported to Brazil)
11 Nuclear (220 points for domestic coverage, 176 used.)
(8 Oil Points in Reserve)


Constant Costs - 133 points
Military Upkeep - 78
Intelligence Service - 5 points
Social Services (Level V) - 44 points
Nuclear Improvement - 6 points

Government Projects - 52 points
2 x Oil Points - 2pts
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 7 of 10.. 30 / 50 points)
First Generation ABM - 12 points (72 of 72, 6 of 6 years)
10 Kfir Air Units - 20 points
1 C-5 Galaxy -5 points

Surplus - (+3) points
3 Points!!


Edited to Represent Requests from certain nations.

British budget reallocation:

55 points surplus, from allocation for Chinese aid now redirected:

5 Tornado I aircraft - 20 points
4 Blackburn Buccaneer aircraft - 16 points
9 pilots - 18 points
1 point to start a pilot (1/2).

OOC: You know SHarina, I have troops in China right now. All your space scinetists or astronaughts who survived have to do is go to my light division and ask to be sent to Panay and they would be.

And I am not crippling my economy to help.

I'm bored. When will we be able to post our 1965 builds?

I'm bored. When will we be able to post our 1965 builds?

several players are on vacation for the next couple of weeks.. but you can post them for 1965 on monday July 17

In March, nations north of the Tropic of Cancer realize that spring is very late, and planting season is much delayed. Governments begin checking weather data and determine that they lack sufficient information to make policy decisions until some governments begin looking that the famous 1816 Year without a Summer.

OOC
The Scandic Union begins to suffer from the effects of the RN blockade, and North Sea oil production has been disrupted as oil platforms have been evacuated.

No oil production for the Scandic Union, nor any imports. No imports for the Ukraine or Poland either unless Germany is willing to assist. The CSPS is forced to begin dipping into its strategic oil reserves. British North Sea oil production, along with German and Dutch production is similarly disrupted because of the fighting in the North Sea. However, those nations can still import.

Oil prices have doubled since the beginning of the year because of disruption of North Sea oil, radiation in the South China Sea (disrupting Filipino oil production), fighting in Central Asia (disrupting oil exports from that nation), the closure of the Dardenelles (because of fighting), destruction of the Suez Canal (requiring medium and small tankers to now steam all the way around Africa), radiation concerns from China and Indochina causing tankers from the Persian Gulf to steam much further out in the Pacific to avoid contimination before they make port calls in Korea and Japan, and occasional shipping strikes in the Atlantic that have sunk a number of tankers.

The US has already instituted gasoline rationing, and the Canadians now follow suit, as does Burgundy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal.

All of the belligerent nations are on a war footing and have effectively done the same.

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available: 94 -Max-

Commerce:
2 national airlines, 4 international airlines, 27 shipping units

Population: 47 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 13, Nantes 11, Lille 11, Marseilles 11, Toulouse 11, Rouen 11, Vichy 15, Lyon 11

Tech Level: 7.5
-----------------------------------------------
Income:
Production Centeres: 94*1.5 = 141 points -National spending-

Commerce:Total= 50 points
Shipping= 40 points
National Airline= 4 points
International Airline= 6 points

Satelite Bonus= 2.5 points
Improved Satelite Bonus= 5 points

Tourisim:
From Constructed Facilities= 4 points


Total= 202.5 Points
---------------------------------------
Expenditure:
Loss of Commerce and tourisim=38.5 points
Level 3 social services= 14.1 points
Military Maintenance= 48.25 points

1st Infantry Corps -Highly Trained- 1 point
2 Armored Division AMX-30 -Highly Trained- 2 points
1 Mechanised Artillary Group -Highly Trained- 1 point
1 -HQ Highly Trained- 1.5 points
2 Transport Helicopter group .5
1 Airborne Light Brigades -Handpicked- 1.25 points
1 Light Marine Brigade -Handpicked- 1.25
2 Mechanised Flak groups -Highly Trained- 2 points
8 Dassault Mirage V Fighters 8 points
1 Do 500 Transport .5 points
2 Strategic Jet Bombers 4 points
14 pilots -expert- 7 points
1 Helicopter Cargo .25
1 Amphibious assault group .5 points
2 Nuclear Attack Submarines .5 points
1 CVAN Carrier + heavy air wing 4 points
1 CVN Carrier + Light Air Wing 2 point
1 ASW Helicopter Group .25
5 Light Cruisers 2.5
5 Destroyer Group 1.25 points

Mobilised:
2 Infantry Corps -Highly Trained- 2 points
1 Garison .25 points
1 HQ 1 point

Airbase in Basra:
1 Mirage V Strike Fighter 1
1 Expert Pilot 2
1 Highly Trained Garrison 0.75

Millitary construction:
4 Mirage F1 fighters <to greece>- 12 points
8 Mirage F1 fighters- 24 points
1 Armored Divisions- 5 points
1 Infantry Corps- 5 points


Naval Construction:
2 CVN= 0 Under Construction (year 2)

<Project "Monnet"=0 points>
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Extra Intelligence Budget= 5 point
<ESA Research= 0 points> put on hold
Energy Bill= 10 points
Electronics= 5 (4 of 10)
Civil Defence= 4.7 points
OA Pipeline Project in the ME= 8 points (year 2 of 10)


<Yugoslavian Military Maintenance= 8.8 points> reduced
<Albo-Kosovan Military Maintenance= 4.15 points> Reduced

African Aid:
<Level IV social Services (Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Burkina Faso)= 0 points> (suspended)
<Level IV Social Spending (Congo)= 0 points> suspended

Aid to the UIR= 5 points <reduced>
-----------------------------------------------
Energy Bill:

Needed:
Production: 8 points
Oil Demand: 3.55 point

Provided:
Nuclear: 2 points
Hydroelectric: 1 point
Ethanol: 1 points

Imported:
4 oil points (UIR:3 points and Algeria: 1): 8 production points
7 energy points:
4 natural gas (Algeria: 2 and Romania: 2): 2 production points

Cost: 10 production points
-----------------------------------------------
Trade:
Germany-1
UK-10
USA-5
UIR-10
Belgium-1
Netherlands-1
Spain-2
Senegal-6
Guinea-4
Yugoslavia-7
Albania and Kosovo-3
-----------------------------------------------
Tech Level 8 Progress

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. Done
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. Done by end of next year
3. Created an Improved communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. Done
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. Done
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. Done
6. Has spent 5 points a year for 10 years building a home-grown microcomputer industry. (Year 4 of 10)
-----------------------------------------------
Yugoslavia 1964

Population: 8 million
Tech level: 7
Income: 12 production points, 1 national airline=2, 1 International Airline= 2 points, 32 Shipping unit= 46 points, 1 tourisim, 8.8 points from France

Spending:
Loss of Commerce and Tourisim=37.5 points
level 4 social services – 4 points
Energy: Military and Commerce= 6 points, 1 point nuclear for industry
Electronics= 5 points(Year 5)
Civil Defence= 0.8 points.
<ESA Research= 0 points> suspended
Millitary & intel Maintenance=10.5 points
Build 1 Armoured division= 5 points
Build 1 Flak Group= 3 Points

-----------------------------------------------
Albania-Kosovo 1964:

Population: 3 million
Tech level: 7
Income: 9 production points, 1 national airline=2, 1 International Airline= 2 points, 32 Shipping unit= 46 points, 1 tourisim, 4.15 points from France

Spending:
Loss of Commerce and Tourisim=37.5
level 5 social services – 3 points, Energy:
Industry= 1 nuclear, Military and Commerce= 3 points,
Electronics= 5 (Year 4)
Millitary & intel Maintenance=7.5
Civil Defence= 0.3 points
<ESA Research= 0 points>
2 Mountain Light Inf= 4 points
-----------------------------------------------

effects of gasoline rationing
no noticable game effective this year, will be an impact next year (mixed positive and negative)

Pakistan, 1964 Build, Tech Level 7.0
Spending Type: Market Economy National Effort, Growth: 1% (normally 1%, but extra 1% from SCT would make it 2%, but pollution due to coal and other stuff, it's another -1%)

1964 Budget:
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 89 from production centers (59 production centers: 18 Agra, 5 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar, 4 Quetta [3 in Agra from growth]), + 5 from Tourism = 141 points

Energy:
12 Coal
2 Oil
1 Natural Gas
1 Hydroelectric

Population: 460 million people

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 1
x1 Mechanized (Highly Trained) .75
x14 Pilots 0
x4 C47 1
x2 Hal Marut 2
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1
x16 Light Infantry 3
x10 Armored 5
x2 Parachute Divisions 1 point
x1 Intelligence Agency 5 points
Total Spent: 22

Total Remaining: 119 points

Social Services:
Level III Social Services for the poorest, level II for the rich who can afford the private services (119 points)

Total Spent: 141

Total Remaining: 0 points

Construction:

Total Spent: 141

Total Remaining: 0

Military Purchases:

Total Spent: 141

Total Remaining: 0

Energy Costs:

Total Spent: 141

Total Remaining: 0

Foreign Aid:

Predicted 1965 Budget (taking nat'l effort into account) :
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (60 production centers: 18 Agra, 5 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar, 4 Quetta, 1 Srinigar [1 in Srinigar from growth]), + 5 from Tourism = 142 points

Progress Towards Tech Level 7.5:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Year 2/10)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry.

Updated to reflect entering the war

I saved my army (I don't think I managed to cut loose my army, since my budget was posted 1 in-game month ago, so I probably saved these guys from being jobless in the nick of time), but sacrificed my social spending. I put enough to stop large riots until I enter war-time spending.

You actually have no growth due to depression I think, unless that ended

You actually have no growth due to depression I think, unless that ended

I remember factoring that in, but I may have forgotten...

Fixed my build to reflect greater troop commitments.

I remember factoring that in, but I may have forgotten...

check Twilight War thread, you lost your commerce and tourism is down markedly.. the South Africans and British Pacific Fleet has targetted your shipping

Jeez, so remember to tell us which nations depression has lessoned and which haven't when we do our 1965 builds. (I gather those that started new markets will be doing slightly better.)

Jeez, so remember to tell us which nations depression has lessoned and which haven't when we do our 1965 builds. (I gather those that started new markets will be doing slightly better.)

I will, although as the Europeans are still beating each other up and no beating up the Pakistanis too, it may be a bit
figure Sunday

Ok. Is Sunday when we can begin our 1965 builds.

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available: 94 -Max-

Commerce:
2 national airlines, 4 international airlines, 27 shipping units

Population: 47 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 13, Nantes 11, Lille 11, Marseilles 11, Toulouse 11, Rouen 11, Vichy 15, Lyon 11

Tech Level: 7.5
-----------------------------------------------
Income:
Production Centeres: 94*1.5 = 141 points -National spending-

Commerce:Total= 50 points
Shipping= 40 points
National Airline= 4 points
International Airline= 6 points

Satelite Bonus= 2.5 points
Improved Satelite Bonus= 5 points

Tourisim:
From Constructed Facilities= 4 points


Total= 202.5 Points
---------------------------------------
Expenditure:
Loss of Commerce and tourisim=40.5 points
Level 3 social services= 14.1 points
Military Maintenance= 58.75 points


Quote:
1st Infantry Corps -Highly Trained- 2 point
2 Armored Division AMX-30 -Highly Trained- 3 points
1 Mechanised Artillary Group -Highly Trained- 1 point
1 -HQ Highly Trained- 1.5 points
2 Transport Helicopter group .5
1 Airborne Light Brigades -Handpicked- 2.5 points
2 Mechanised Flak groups -Highly Trained- 2 points
6 Dassault Mirage V Fighters 10 points
2 Mirage F1 4 points
1 Do 500 Transport .5 points
2 Avro Vulcan Bombers 8 points
14 pilots -expert- 7 points
1 Helicopter Cargo .25
1 Amphibious assault group .5 points
2 Nuclear Attack Submarines .5 points
1 CVN Carrier + Light Air Wing 2 point
1 ASW Helicopter Group .25
5 Light Cruisers 2.5
5 Destroyer Group 1.25 points

Mobilised:
2 Infantry Corps -Highly Trained- 4 points
1 Garison .25 points
1 HQ 1 point

Airbase in Basra:
1 Mirage V Strike Fighter 1
1 Expert Pilot 2
1 Highly Trained Garrison 0.75


Millitary construction:
4 Mirage F1 fighters <to greece>- 12 points
8 Mirage F1 fighters- 24 points



Naval Construction:
2 CVN= 0 Under Construction (year 2)

<Project "Monnet"=0 points>
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Extra Intelligence Budget= 5 point
<ESA Research= 0 points> put on hold
Energy Bill= 10 points
Electronics= 5 (4 of 10)
Civil Defence= 4.7 points
<OA Pipeline Project in the ME= 0 points (year 2 of 10)>


<Yugoslavian Military Maintenance= 8.8 points> reduced
<Albo-Kosovan Military Maintenance= 4.15 points> Reduced
Aid to Allies= 10 points

African Aid:
<Level IV social Services (Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Burkina Faso)= 0 points> (suspended)
<Level IV Social Spending (Congo)= 0 points> suspended

Aid to the UIR= 0 points <suspended>
-----------------------------------------------
Energy Bill:

Needed:
Production: 8 points
Oil Demand: 3.55 point

Provided:
Nuclear: 2 points
Hydroelectric: 1 point
Ethanol: 1 points

Imported:
4 oil points (UIR:3 points and Algeria: 1): 8 production points
7 energy points:
4 natural gas (Algeria: 2 and Romania: 2): 2 production points

Cost: 10 production points
-----------------------------------------------
Trade:
Germany-1
UK-10
USA-5
UIR-10
Belgium-1
Netherlands-1
Spain-2
Senegal-6
Guinea-4
Yugoslavia-7
Albania and Kosovo-3
-----------------------------------------------
Tech Level 8 Progress

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. Done
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. Done by end of next year
3. Created an Improved communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. Done
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. Done
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. Done
6. Has spent 5 points a year for 10 years building a home-grown microcomputer industry. (Year 4 of 10)
-----------------------------------------------
Yugoslavia 1964

Population: 8 million
Tech level: 7
Income: 12 production points, 1 national airline=2, 1 International Airline= 2 points, 32 Shipping unit= 46 points, 1 tourisim, 8.8 points from France

Spending:
Loss of Commerce and Tourisim=37.5 points
level 3 social services – 2.4 points
Energy: Military and Commerce= 6 points, 1 point nuclear for industry
Electronics= 5 points(Year 5)
Civil Defence= 0.8 points.
<ESA Research= 0 points> suspended
Millitary & intel Maintenance=16 points
Build 1 Flak Group= 3 Points

-----------------------------------------------
Albania-Kosovo 1964:

Population: 3 million
Tech level: 7
Income: 9 production points, 1 national airline=2, 1 International Airline= 2 points, 32 Shipping unit= 46 points, 1 tourisim, 4.15 points from France

Spending:
Loss of Commerce and Tourisim=37.5
level 5 social services – 5 points, Energy:
Industry= 1 nuclear, Military and Commerce= 3 points,
Electronics= 5 (Year 4)
Millitary & intel Maintenance=7.5
Civil Defence= 0.3 points
<ESA Research= 0 points>
2 Mountain Light Inf= 4 points
-----------------------------------------------

When is 1965 ready?

When is 1965 ready?

rules for 1965 will be posted tomorrow. The Depression will have varying effects, as will the Nuclear Autumn.

Location, damage, and how much spending you had will all have affects.

UIR 1963 builds

Population: 44 million
Production Centers: 84x2=168
Shipping and Commerce: 45
Oil: 12
Tourism: 3
Total: 228
Growth: 4%

Maintenance: 47.5
Level 3 Social Safety Net: 7.5

Left: 173

Builds:
8 Flak Brigades: 24
2 Mechanized Artillery: 10
1 Expert Pilot (2nd year): 4
2 Nuclear Power Plants: 48
5 Mirage G's: 15
Upgrade Light Infantry Units to Infantry: 30
Microcomputers (4/10): 5

Surplus: 35

OOC: posting some builds for Warta until he gets back. 1964 to be up eventually

UIR 1964 builds

Population: 46million
Production Centers: 84=168
Shipping and Commerce: 25
Oil: 12
Tourism: 3
Total: 166
Growth: 0%

Maintenance: 47.5
11 Flak Brigades
5 Garrison Unit
4 Mountain Brigades
6 Infantry Divisions
8 Infantry Divisions- Reserve
2 Parachute Brigades
2 Special Forces Brigades
3 Mechanized Artillery
6 Mechanized Infantry Divisions
3 Armored Divisions
1 Mechanized Flak
3 Frigate Units
2 Corvette units
11 Expert Pilots
2 Helo Transports
2 Helo Gunships
5 Mirage G's
2 Mirage V's
1 Helo ASW unit
3 IRBM's
3 Silos

Level 3 Social Safety Net: 8

Left: 111

Builds:
Aid to China: 80
1 Nuclear Power Plant: 24
Aid to ASA: 7

Alright, I just hope to see things change for me due to the new controls and everything. Population boom is going to be a pain. I'll have a National effor til this president is out of office that's for sure.

Builds edited to reflect destruction of Sejong 1 IRBMs. Upkeep costs shunted to raising Light Infantry units and an Armored Brigade for peacekeeping operations.

I gather we'll have to post our 1965,66,67,68,69, and 70 builds in short little blurbs here when we do the jump. That's the only way to actually make sense of it.

USEA 1965 build

Population: 61 million
Tech level: 7.5
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Wartime Economy {0% growth + 1% SCT Economic Bonus= 1%}]

Economic budget: 300.5 points (Production centers [270]: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 2, Pnomh Penh 4, Bangkok 3, Haiphong 0, Da Nang 0, Cam Ranh 0, Si Racha 2, Can Tho 2, Kampong Cham 2, Sattahip 2, Pakxe 4, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 1 1D, Chiang Mai 2, Kampot 1 1D. Nuclear power plants[0]: Vinh 1, Si Racha 1, Chiang Mai 1 (all damaged). Natural Gas[1]: 2x Natural gas points 1. Commerce[27.5]: 18x Shipping Units 25 [9,000,000 million tons], Improved Satellite comunications Network 2.5.Natural Growth[2]: 2 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 30.5 points

Asian Space Program- 16 points

Civil Defense- 6 points

National Air Defense Radar Network- 6 points

4 Imported Oil from Indonesia and Malaysia- 4 points

Microcomputer Industry- 5 points

Ethanol fuels research- 6 points

Repair 2x production centres- 24 points

Repair 2x Nuclear power plants- 24 points

Food aid for 20,000,000 people- 40 points

10x Shipping Units- 30 points

5x International Airlines- 30 points

Military:

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

First generation ABM research 12/72- 12 points

4x Light Infantry Divisions- 4 points

Maintenance:
1 parachute brigade 1 point, [Hand picked]
-
4 Dassault Mirage IIIE fighter unit 4 points,
1 Ht-80 transport unit .25 points,
2 ASW Air wings .5 points
4 C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units 2 points,
1 CA Kirin Lamsong Tanker unit 1 point,
28 Expert pilots 14 points,
-
6 Destroyer Units (2 Vessels) 1.5 points,
4 ASW Frigate Units (2 Vessals) 1 point,
2 Escort/Patrol Groups (20 Corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 4 points,
3 Light missile cruisers 1.5 points,
4 Heavy Missile cruisers 2 points,
6 Anti-aircraft cruisers 3 points,
2 Coastal Patrol Groups (40 missile attack boats) .5 points,
2 'Jiao' class CVLs 1 points,
2 Nuclear Attack submarines 1 points,
2 Amphibious Assault Group 1 point,
1 Nuclear Ballistic Missile submarines .5 point


TOTAL= 39.25
(*Denotes Higly Trained)

I gather we'll have to post our 1965,66,67,68,69, and 70 builds in short little blurbs here when we do the jump. That's the only way to actually make sense of it.

yes, although it would be useful to wait for starting builds until after I finish figuring damage, economic problems, environmental problems etc

quick notes:
Because of environmental effects, the Depression still going on, damage etc

no nation that is located above the Tropic of Cancer will have economic or population growth from 65-70.

So to figure out your population, look at your known death toll (based on previous posts), and don't add anything to it.

some nations are going to get a wave of immigration. The FNS, Australasia, South Africa are going to be the major nations that get this, and Nigeria, Belgian Congo, Liberia and Kenya will see some as well.

Nearly 1 million Black Americans move to Nigeria in the years 65 - 70, while South Africa gets 100,000 Scandinavians, nearly 1 million Germans and Australia, in addition to getting 5.2 million North Americans, also gets nearly 500,000 Poles and Ukrainians seeking entry. These immigrants will bring capital with them, so FNS will get 2 free production centers, Australasia will get 4, and South Africa will get 1.

In addition, nations are going to be doing good to hold their economies together because of the massive disruptions caused. So no economic growth 65 -70.

This will do an adequate job simulating the Great Depression

Bulgaria is to follow the policy of Peacetime National Effort after the Twilight War has ended until the necessary reforms are carried out and passed by Parliament and until the recovery and clean up can be completed to a satisifactory degree as well as taking everything that has happened into account as well...It may take a few years before the results come to full bloom and that the economy can hopefully return to Peaceful Normal Economy possibly before 1970.

quick notes:
Because of environmental effects, the Depression still going on, damage etc

no nation that is located above the Tropic of Cancer will have economic or population growth from 65-70.

So to figure out your population, look at your known death toll (based on previous posts), and don't add anything to it.

some nations are going to get a wave of immigration. The FNS, Australasia, South Africa are going to be the major nations that get this, and Nigeria, Belgian Congo, Liberia and Kenya will see some as well.

Nearly 1 million Black Americans move to Nigeria in the years 65 - 70, while South Africa gets 100,000 Scandinavians, nearly 1 million Germans and Australia, in addition to getting 5.2 million North Americans, also gets nearly 500,000 Poles and Ukrainians seeking entry. These immigrants will bring capital with them, so FNS will get 2 free production centers, Australasia will get 4, and South Africa will get 1.

In addition, nations are going to be doing good to hold their economies together because of the massive disruptions caused. So no economic growth 65 -70.

This will do an adequate job simulating the Great Depression

by the way, Nigeria will get a free production center too

I really need clairifaction on China's population, especially with some last minute aid from US (40 points), Japan, UIR, as well as some additional foreign military units (should be around 150 or more points altogether of extra food + military aid).

GB said China will lose 280 million people, but that was before all the extra aid came in. I was figuring I'd have China's population ending up at 400 million to make it easier for everybody (200 million fed from China's own agriculture and 200 million saved from foreign aid and military aid).

Besides, 100 million died in the short term from the nuke strikes, radiation, fighting, etc. Then another 100 million dies from disease, starvation (especially rural villages and remote areas), and some more fighting / scrambling around.

But with China's 450 points of domestic production in 1964, along with 150'ish points of foreign aid, I should be able to feed pretty much all the survivors and repair my nuclear power plants and maybe maintain basic social services (40'ish points I think).

North America 1970
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11400587&postcount=210

haven't divided up the military yet, but will soon

I really need clairifaction on China's population, especially with some last minute aid from US (40 points), Japan, UIR, as well as some additional foreign military units (should be around 150 or more points altogether of extra food + military aid).

GB said China will lose 280 million people, but that was before all the extra aid came in. I was figuring I'd have China's population ending up at 400 million to make it easier for everybody (200 million fed from China's own agriculture and 200 million saved from foreign aid and military aid).

Besides, 100 million died in the short term from the nuke strikes, radiation, fighting, etc. Then another 100 million dies from disease, starvation (especially rural villages and remote areas), and some more fighting / scrambling around.

But with China's 450 points of domestic production in 1964, along with 150'ish points of foreign aid, I should be able to feed pretty much all the survivors and repair my nuclear power plants and maybe maintain basic social services (40'ish points I think).

figure out your death toll due to immediate attack, and radiation deaths I indicated. Then figure out how many people you can feed, and then look at the aid you got and work from there. If sufficient food becomes available, then some adjustments can be made. By the way, American private contributions add in another 5 points of aid to China.

figure out your death toll due to immediate attack, and radiation deaths I indicated. Then figure out how many people you can feed, and then look at the aid you got and work from there. If sufficient food becomes available, then some adjustments can be made. By the way, American private contributions add in another 5 points of aid to China.

Thats the problem, GB. I completely lost track of how much military aid has been given to China (the HQ units, transport units, infantry divisions, etc. discounts off the points needed for feeding) so I'm not exactly sure how much overall points I will need to feed people AFTER taking these "discounts" into account (then I can apply the actual non-military aid towards the total).

Also where did you post the "final" casaulty figures? The Twilight War thread? Just asking as there's dozens of new posts in the Twilight thread almost daily so I lost track of where the casaulty post was. I do remember something about losing roughly 100 million people (combined casaulties from the nuke attacks then the short term radiation / starvation issues). Then another 100 - 200 million people from starvation (where the aid is supposed to come in and reduce *THAT* casaulty number).

EDIT:

I'm also not quite sure exactly how much aid I have from which nations. Again, the problem is the 100's of posts in the Twilight War thread, this economic thread, and such, so its hard for me to tell where the exact posts of nations giving aid to China, especially given that the aid came at different times (pre CSPS nuke war and after the CSPS nuke war). I do know that the UIR is giving me 80 points of aid and Japan giving me 40 points of aid (from the SCT chatzy room) and GB saying the US will give China 40 points of food aid then the 5 more points of private funds from the Asians in Columbia.

This is getting somewhat confusing trying to figure out the following...

1. How much military aid and discount off feeding costs China got from allies and friends.

2. How much non-military aid (like food, money, etc.) from various nations pre-war and post-war (the CSPS war).

3. Casaulty figure to be modified on the amount of aid in #1 and #2.

North America 1970
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11400587&postcount=210

haven't divided up the military yet, but will soon

Uh, why is the capital of Quebec Montreal instead of Quebec City? It's been the capital of that province forever. The Parliament is there, the gov't offices are there, etc. Just because Montreal is the biggest city doesnt mean it should be the capital.

Uh, why is the capital of Quebec Montreal instead of Quebec City? It's been the capital of that province forever. The Parliament is there, the gov't offices are there, etc. Just because Montreal is the biggest city doesnt mean it should be the capital.

Just like Sacremnto is the capital of California, not Los Angeles... or Albany being the capital of NY, not NYC.

Just like Sacremnto is the capital of California, not Los Angeles... or Albany being the capital of NY, not NYC.

This is the opposite, buddy. Montreal is much bigger than Quebec City. LA is bigger than Sacramento, and NYC is bigger than Albany.

Umm GB. Just some points here. Northern Quebec would stay with Ontario due to Native lands. Montreal is majority english speaking and has been shown to absolutely hate seperatists.

Korean Aid to China-

Reinforced IKA Rapid Reaction Force (Active):
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
2 units of Transport helicopters (Ht-5)-.5 points
1 HQ Unit-1 pt
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 infantry division .25 points

10 Points to train Chinese Militia
30 Points to China

Umm GB. Just some points here. Northern Quebec would stay with Ontario due to Native lands. Montreal is majority english speaking and has been shown to absolutely hate seperatists.

#1 Northern Quebec is barely populated.

#2 Montreal is NOT majority english speaking. It DOES have the majority of English-speakers in Quebec, that is true, but Francophones are the majority.

#3 This isn't 2006; it's 1965. The demographics are much different.

#4 If the English speakers want to go to Ontario, by all means, let them go.

#5 Your biased against the Seperatists, because you are an English-speaking Canadian. Your types seem to hate all notions of anything Quebecois.

#6 I'm sure the Quebecois fighting for independence would overcome the English speakers.

#7 There are a lot of French-Canadians in Ontario, too; does that mean parts of Ontario should join Quebec?

#8 I like lists.

Uh, why is the capital of Quebec Montreal instead of Quebec City? It's been the capital of that province forever. The Parliament is there, the gov't offices are there, etc. Just because Montreal is the biggest city doesnt mean it should be the capital.

ooc
because Montreal has a baseball team, which makes it superior to Quebec (or at least it did until last year)

seriously though, if you want the captial to be Quebec its ok with me

Umm GB. Just some points here. Northern Quebec would stay with Ontario due to Native lands. Montreal is majority english speaking and has been shown to absolutely hate seperatists.

different situation so going to allow it, and besides, most of the English speakers leave Quebec for points elsewhere. But a significant number of French speakers leave other parts of Canada and immigrate from France to make up the difference.

ooc
because Montreal has a baseball team, which makes it superior to Quebec (or at least it did until last year)

seriously though, if you want the captial to be Quebec its ok with me

I would prefer the capital to be Quebec, thanks.

#1 Northern Quebec is barely populated.

#2 Montreal is NOT majority english speaking. It DOES have the majority of English-speakers in Quebec, that is true, but Francophones are the majority.

#3 This isn't 2006; it's 1965. The demographics are much different.

#4 If the English speakers want to go to Ontario, by all means, let them go.

#5 Your biased against the Seperatists, because you are an English-speaking Canadian. Your types seem to hate all notions of anything Quebecois.

#6 I'm sure the Quebecois fighting for independence would overcome the English speakers.

#7 There are a lot of French-Canadians in Ontario, too; does that mean parts of Ontario should join Quebec?

#8 I like lists.

Well as a Canadian who has been living through the times of seperation I can certainly tell you what the consequences and such were. And if GB's University Classes are considered any good for his knowledge then mine have to too.

You cannot possibly tell me that you know more as a 14 year old American who has not even taken a Canadian History Class then a 19 year old University Student studying Political Science in which they force you to review the seperation problems.

Oh and by the way; Perhaps the Russians should have moved out of St. Petersburg and Russia should have given up any claims. Same with Holstein.

Don't forget, you made the same arguement when it came to the Carribbean; You had stated that your family was of Carribbean Heritage therefore you had more knowledge on the subject than GB.

Don't forget, you made the same arguement when it came to the Carribbean; You had stated that your family was of Carribbean Heritage therefore you had more knowledge on the subject than GB.

Technically, that was Sukiaida. Just saying.

Well as a Canadian who has been living through the times of seperation I can certainly tell you what the consequences and such were. And if GB's University Classes are considered any good for his knowledge then mine have to too.

You cannot possibly tell me that you know more as a 14 year old American who has not even taken a Canadian History Class then a 19 year old University Student studying Political Science in which they force you to review the seperation problems..

main reason for Quebec seperating is for ease of game play and to make the game interesting. A certain amount of realism is being sacrificed in this case, but the main effect is this. The central core of Canada, the most populated area, is stronger as part of Huron. The breakup of Canada is triggered by the general anger in the west of Canada caused by the fact that the regiments of the regular Canadian Army that were essentially destroyed by nuclear weapons were mostly recruited in the western part of Canada, and the government faction that was most in favor of intervention in the war in Russia was in eastern Canada. So BC leaves first, figuring it has more in common with Oregon and Washington state then it does with the rest of the nation. Quebec is next, as sufficient disillusionment exists over the future of Canada to allow the vote to narrowly squeek through the Quebec legislature. Maritime Canada, which is thinly populated compared to the rest of the nation, has more in common with New England then with Ontario.

Its admittedly a stretch, but its not implausable. In RL, Canada has on several occasions seriously discussed such a breakup, with Western Canada flat out telling Eastern Canada that Quebec leaving will mean they leave too. Thats the justification. Its not the most solidly justified thing that has occured in this RP, but sufficient plausability exists to make it reaonably realistic. And North America as I have designed it allows for some respectably powerful nations to exist in the game, as well as some small ones and hopefully will add some balance to the game so the North America (including Canada) no longer totally dominates.


Oh and by the way; Perhaps the Russians should have moved out of St. Petersburg and Russia should have given up any claims. Same with Holstein..

Probably should have, but the Scandic Union never forced the issue and the people of Petrograd have been there a long time. Some would have left and some Finns and Swedes moved in, as well as some Estonians, but not enough to change the character of the city. Same with Holstein.


Don't forget, you made the same arguement when it came to the Carribbean; You had stated that your family was of Carribbean Heritage therefore you had more knowledge on the subject than GB.

That did annoy me as well, but in the end I decided my knowledge of the situation and the dynamics of game play and this RP would make my decision for me. Not annoyance at Sukkaida (who was the one who stated that)

How much is it to repair a production centre?

How much is it to repair a production centre?

6 points for EMP damage, 12 points for other damage.

OR

You can do salvage, which allows you to salvage useful portions of 2 damaged production centers to repair one for free at the cost of the total loss of the other.

Sometimes your population will do that whether you want them to or not. This is basically looting, but the useful portions do turn up again in your economy. Generally this happens if there has been a break down in government authority or the government has been destroyed and no one is around to provide security.

incidently, starting a new economic thread, but please don't post in it yet until I finish the first few rules sections

UHHH!! Wait, why won't Malyasia, Indonesia, and the Philippines get any immigrants. They are closer to the countries damaged, but still below the Tropic of Cancer (Except for little uninhabited areas of the Northern Philippin islands and Malyasian areas.) Soo why aren't those three included with Australasia?

6 points for EMP damage, 12 points for other damage.

OR

You can do salvage, which allows you to salvage useful portions of 2 damaged production centers to repair one for free at the cost of the total loss of the other.

Sometimes your population will do that whether you want them to or not. This is basically looting, but the useful portions do turn up again in your economy. Generally this happens if there has been a break down in government authority or the government has been destroyed and no one is around to provide security.

The production centres have already been salavged in 1964 (Through a combination of individual looting, Local government initiative, the Buddhist monastaries motivating communities and in small amounts the central government.)
There was just an odd number, which left one damaged.
Thanks.
I thought it was 12 points for EMP so that gives me an extra 24 points if the nuclear power stations are to be repaired from EMP as well.
Looks like I will be able to get some ground troops to start rebuilding.

Thank you GB, all I wanted is an explanation. It is clear that you have given this consideration for the sake of game play.

And you are right about B.C.; even now there are political parties for the annexation of B.C. into Washington.

Don't forget, you made the same arguement when it came to the Carribbean; You had stated that your family was of Carribbean Heritage therefore you had more knowledge on the subject than GB.


Who the fuck said I was Carribean?

UHHH!! Wait, why won't Malyasia, Indonesia, and the Philippines get any immigrants. They are closer to the countries damaged, but still below the Tropic of Cancer (Except for little uninhabited areas of the Northern Philippin islands and Malyasian areas.) Soo why aren't those three included with Australasia?

depends on how you handle the evacuation and refugee flight from China. If you intend to let them stay, you are opening yourself up to some amazing problems between the various ethnicities in the Philippines (lot of languages spoken there, literally dozens not to mention dialects by the score)

Who the fuck said I was Carribean?

let it drop, mistaken identity

economic problems
mid term
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11407397&postcount=2

Actually Chinese are the third largest ethnic group in the Philippines. So it'll be alot less trouble than it seems. Spanish and the Native Language won't change much because they are still a majority. English I see changing from an American based dialect to an English one, because of Australia.

And I see some cities becoming predominatly CHinese (Such as Quezon City.) But in truth a large amount of Filipino's are of Chinese decent already. And would be even more likely due to the recent SCT thing in E20 that isn't in the real world. So it will be a problem, but a smaller one than it might seem.

Believe me I was shocked too when I did research and found that Chinese are the third largest ethnic group in the Philippines.

I am not in the least surprised. Kern County (my home) has a very large Filipino-American community, and many of them are ethnically Chinese.

New Economic Thread is now ready.. Only thing I am still working on is food.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=492789

No idea what state thats in. I'm in RIchmond COunty. So yeah. Anyhoo waiting on the food thing to actually post my builds.

Nothing to see, posted in wrong thread.

This was Poland's 1964 build. I'm unsure of war damage since cant access the Twilight War thread. Items in red will be damaged/destroyed. I know people have trouble getting access, but could LR, GB, or someone make a quick ruling on its acceptability (since time's frozen I might as well get caught up).

Polish Budget 1964
Population: 46 million
Tech Level 7.5
9 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)
Production centers: (National Effort)(72 prod centers)Warsaw 7, Lodz 7, Krakow 7, Katowice 7, Brest-Litovsk 7, Lvov 7, Riga 7, Lublin 7, Vilnius 4, Kaunas 4, Memel 4, Kaliningrad 4, 30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz), 9 nuclear, 1 ethanol, 5.5 comm net=217.75
Level III social services: 13.8 points.
Intel Agency: 5 points
Military Maintenance: 65.5 points (2 HQ, 9 highly trained armored divisions, 5 HT infantry corps, 6 HT mech divisions, 2 mech arty(Highly Trained) 4 SF airborne Brigade, 8 flak units, 15 MIG 25, 6 Tu22, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 1 Tu 107, 1 ETU95, 6 gunship, 4 transport helo, 1 asw helo 23 expert pilots, 14 regular pilots, 3 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear heavy missile cruiser, 1 nuclear AA cruiser, 4 lv 7.5 nuclear attack sub, 1 CVAN, 1 Heavy air wing).

Spending:132.5+17.5 last year=150
4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-microelectronics(3/10)
3 points-improved comm sat net
12 points-space program
20 points-China
12.5 points-5 Kfir fighters
10 points-5 pilots
6 points-2 garrison units
24 points-calling up various CSPS mothballed ships
53 left

Would 1/2 factories, shipping, airlines, and nuclear power plants OK be a nice number? 1/3 perhaps?
The military is shown in the build above. I dont know exactly what's lost, since I can't open the twilight war thread, but is this acceptable?

2xGarrison Unit
1xKC-97
6xAverage Pilot
1xETu-95
4xTransport Helicopter
4xFlak Unit
2x Infantry Corps
1xHQ Corps

Elephantum, you need to search for GB and his threads, and you can find the Twighlight War. I think you didn't lose a lot of production centers, but most of your military is wrecked

EDIT- pretty sure you had armored units left. It wasn't that bad for Poland

(oops, this is in the wrong econ thread. Never updated the bookmarks, sorry. I'll go fix that.