NationStates Jolt Archive

E20 Economy and Spending Thread/Rules

OOC:
This is the principle economic thread for Alternate History 20th Century Role Play, which has managed to reach 1950.

Malkyer is the current Economic Moderator, with New Dornalia acting as the Assistant Economic Moderator as time permits. I will try to review this thread at least once a day, but because of RL commitments you should ask any urgent questions via TG, or ask another moderator.

Once the major player nations have reached tech level 7, I will go through the old threads and figure out a timetable for reaching level 8.

The US and UK reached tech level 7 in 1945, and most other industrialized nations (that is to say, player countries), will have reached tech level 7 by 1952. A list of the dates of advancements can be found in the main thread.

I. Economic Production
II. Improving Your Economy
III. Energy, Natural Resources, and Pollution
IV. Tech Level Advancements
V. NPC Economies

I. Economic production
Nations principally gain income from their own internal production, commerce and colonial resources.

Industrialized nations have production centers. A portion of their production can applied to the government for spending.

Market Economy Budget cuts, Income reduced by 1 /2, growth 5%. Each production center provides 1 point

Market Economy Peacetime. Normal income, growth 3%
Command Economy Peacetime Normal income, growth 2%
Peacetime is the norm. Each production center provides 2 points

Market Economy National Effort, and each production center is worth 3 points, growth 1% (essentially simulates large scale budget deficits)

Command Economy National Effort, production centers are worth 3 points, growth 1% (requires level 5 social spending to offset social costs)

National effort is a short situation, as a long term effort will strain the economy. Each production center is worth 3 points. Incidently, if National Efforts continue for more than 5 years, there is a penalty. Accumalated budget deficits in the Market economies trigger a recession of 1 year for every year of the national effort (-2% growth for duration). In Command Economies social unrest begins unless social services are increased to the next level.

Market Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), production centers x 6, growth 1%

Command Economy Wartime (not available until second year of war), each production center is worth 9 points, no growth

Market Economy Total War (not available until second year of war), Production centers worth 12 points, no growth first year, -1% growth second and additional years. Plus -2% growth for each year postwar for every year Total War economy was in place. (simulates post war recession, large budget deficits).

This is to simulate the fact that Market economies have more capital available and more slack then Command economies but are slower to respond. They also can accumulate massive debts.

Growth
Points added to the economy from growth create new production centers. At cut spending they add 2 production centers for every point of growth, at peacetime they add 1 production center, and at national effort and wartime levels they add .5 (national effort) production centers, and in wartime they add .25 or .1 (wartime spending and total war spending).

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 production center, or "factory," per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 production centers per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 production centers for every 1 million people.

Commerce
This represents your international trade and for some nations may very well exceed what they produce domestically. That is fine and allowed and historically valid. Commerce points are added to the economy after production points are determined.

Merchant marine (international trade) adds 1 build point a year for every Half million tons of shipping (1 shipping unit) at tech levels 4 – 6, and is the principal reason that Norway, Britian and Greece have as many points as they do. At tech level 7, shipping points are worth 1.5 points for every shipping unit, and at tech level 8 they are worth 2 points per shipping unit. Ships are more efficient, containerized shipping arrives and later on computer invoicing and other factors makes shipping more efficient still.

Airlines - Represents not really so much a single airline, as government subsidies, building the airports, and all that goes with it. Provides 2 build points year if a national airline, and 2 build points a year for international airline at tech levels 5 and 6. At tech level 7, for the cost of 1 point for every 10 million people, nations can construct large airports and secondary commuter airfields. Each airline unit is worth 2 points per airline unit constructed, and up to 10 points can be added this way. At tech level 8, the overnight shipping industry becomes a major force in the economy, and up to 15 points can be added to the economy.

Build points provided by merchant marine and airlines do not count against the population limit for build points (the advantages of trade). However, no more than 30 build points can be earned that way. (there is a limit to how much the international economy will support after all) at tech levels 4 – 6, and no more then 40 points at tech level 7 and 50 points at tech level 8.

Foreign Aid
Is allowed, and nations may loan build points to one another, or even give them as a gift.

So to determine your build points, you add your domestic income plus your commerce plus whatever foreign aid you receive and that is what you have to spend each year.
Economic points are used to buy and maintain military units, as well as for social spending, loaning to other nations (or paying them back), economic improvements and special research projects.

Special Recovery Rules
To simulate the urgent need to rebuild postwar, a nation can salvage damaged production centers. For every 2 production centers salvaged, 1 production center is repaired. However, the other is permanently gone and will have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Special Note
Economic statistics for NPC nations will be updated by Parthini and Safehaven2, who jointly work on NPC builds. Statistics for player nations will be updated each year as players post their builds for that year.

Population information is based on information found here
http://www.geohive.com/

adjustments for various events in the game are taken into account

II. Improving Your Economy
The cost of military units can be found here:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472652

However, in addition to buying guns, governments can also purchase other things.

Social service spending provides education and a social safety net and is useful in preventing rebellion and subversion.

Education and Safety net (medical, welfare):
Level I: 1 point per 10 million people gives you basic schools and clinics
Level II: 2 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus high schools, public hospitals, orphans and widows assistance,
Level III: 3 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus public universities, social security type assistance for the elderly and disabled
Level IV: 5 points per 10 million people gives you the above plus unemployment insurance, food assistance (like food stamps), junior colleges
Level V: 10 points per 10 million people gives you all of the above plus free health insurance, and a basic living allotment to all who aren't working. Acts on economy the same as National Effort (as far as growth is concerned)

You can also increase your commerce by purchasing merchant shipping and airlines.

1 Shipping unit (500,000 tons of shipping) costs 3 points, takes 1 year to complete. At tech level 6 each shipping unit provides 1 point; at tech level 7, 1.5 points.

National airlines costs 5 points (for twin engined aircraft and includes the pilot)

International airlines costs 6 points (for four engined aircraft and pilot)

You may also spend points to increase your domestic productivity.

Rural electrication, available at tech level 6, costs 1 point for every 10 million people and boosts your economy by 10% permanently. This is a 2 year project and the points must be spent each year. This is a revolutionary change and brings the rural and urban portions of your society closer together. Builds national cohesion in addition to its economic benefits.

You may improve your transportation infrastructure (increased rail links, or highways etc) by spending 2 points per 10 million people for three years. This will automatically move an area that is tech level 2 or 3 to tech level 4. There will be social costs to this in some cases. This will increase your strategic moves available during wartime, and help accelerate your move up the tech level ladder as well.

Industrial centers may be built (for 24 points) or repaired (for 12 points). In addition, 2 damaged industrial centers can be combined (reflects salvage efforts) to form 1 undamaged industrial center.

At tech level 7 and 8, additional investment improves the efficiency of air travel and shipping (see above)

Tourism
You may create tourist income as well. This requires the investment of 4 points for a jet capable airport, or 4 points for a cruiser ship terminal. You may build multiple airports and terminals, but the maximum bonus is 1 point for every 10 million in population you have (so the US for example could potentially get 14 points this way for example). The maximum is because you need hotel space as well as facilities for passenger. You always earn at least 1 point for tourism for an air terminal, and 1 point for a cruise ship terminal. Its just that additional points require a large service industry. The total maximum tourist income allowed however is 20 points (to avoid weird things like China or India earning 50 points a year, which is way too high). Tourism is halved if you are having civil strife, and no tourism occurs if your country is at war. If your country gets the Olympics, you must have an air terminal built to be selected by the IOC. Getting the Olympics is worth a 5 point economic bonus that year.

Economic Pacts
Joining an economic pact or creating a large trade agreement between multiple nations will give you an added boost to your economy. However, there are some stipulations. Such pacts or agreements must take place between at least four nations, and at least two of those must be either tech level 6 or have some necessary resource (i.e. oil) that other nations need.

After being in an economic pact for five years, your annual growth will get a +1% increase. This represents the maximum amount that you economy can be bolstered by that pact. Being in mulitiple pacts will not increase your growth further (for example, Britain, who is a member of the EEC and the CoN, will still only get +1% growth).

List of Major Economic Pacts and Their Members
European Economic Community: UK, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Burgundy.
Seoul Conference Treaty: Korea, China, USEAS, India (FAS), the Phillippines, Japan
Commonwealth of Nations: Great Britain, South Africa, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Oman, Kuwait, Bhutan, Nepal
Pan American Treaty: United States, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica
Arab League: Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Jordan, Syria

[Note: The EEC, SCT, CoN, PAT, and AL have all existed for at least five years, and so the current members will be able to add the +1% growth for their 1951 builds on. New members and new pacts will have to wait the requisite five years.]

Special Rules
Intelligence Agencies
Funding does not ensure a competent or effective intelligence agencies. It does help though. Base cost is 10 points and creates a 5,000 person organization able to analyze data, do some spying and code breaking and able to investigate dangerous threats to the government (kind of a combination of the US FBI and CIA or KGB in the real world). To maintain an intelligence agency costs 5 points a year (assume that everyone who has one already has been funding it for the course of the game, and has done so for 1947... next year though, you will have to budget for it)

The following nations already have an intelligence organization and do not need to create one (because they have had one all RP, or recently spent money to create on)

Great Britain-MI5/MI6
USA-CIA (Central Intelligence Agency)
Russia-KGB?
France-SDECE (External Documentation and Counter-Espionage Service)
Germany- KND (Kaiserlichnachrichtendienst)
South Africa-FVD (Federal Security Service)
Portugal-
China-
Korea-
Pakistan (FAS)-ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence)
FNS-
Scandic Union-
Indochina (USEAS)-IIA (Indochinese Intelligence Agency)
Syria-SFIR (Syrian Foreign Intelligence and Reconnaissance)
Japan-BII (Bureau of International Intelligence)
Australia-AIA (Australian Intelligence Agency)
Turkey
Central Asian Republic
Nigeria-Federal Intelligence Division

Having an intelligence agency allows you to occasionally get secret information from the Referees on what is going on in the world, and effectiveness varies widely. Most intelligence agencies are good at knowing what their neighbors can do or are planning, and effectiveness decreases the further away they are looking. Being in the UN helps though.

Spy satellites, strategic recon aircraft, electronic warfare and listining ships etc cost extra. 1 Point gives you trawlers for example to monitor electronic communications at sea and off other peoples coasts. Strategic recon aircraft require that you actually have a medium or heavy jet bomber unit able to fly high enough not to be intercepted. Satellites aren't available yet, and won't be for a while, and code breaking is possible, but you cannot break the codes of a nation that is higher tech then you are.

Secret Research
Secret Research is, obviously, research that you want to keep secret. This can be anything from nuclear weapons programs to missile technology to new infantry weapons. In order to conduct secret research, budget the requisite number of points to the project and then call it something else.

Example: Nation X wants to build nuclear weapons, but doesn't want its neighbor Nation Y finding out. When Nation X spends 24 points on the nuclear research, they can call it something like "Renovating Science Departments in Universities."

Once you've got your build, TG me (the Economic Mod) with what you're actually spending that money on. Depending on whether it has a military application, I will inform the military mod, so that whatever you're working on can be rated or acknowledged. And remember, no matter how creative you are at hiding something, there's a chance foreign intelligence services will find out about it.

Economic Sanctions
War is expensive, and sometimes it's just as effective to make someone dirt poor as it is to blow some stuff up. That's where sanctions come in. Each year, as part of your build, you will post a list of countries you trade with, and how much income you recieve from those nations. Example:


South African Trading Partners:
40 commerce points
Great Britain-9
United States-7
Germany-6
Australia-6
FNS-4
Federated Asian States-4
Portugal-2
Dispersed-2

If the US decides to slap sanctions on South Africa, for whatever reason, South Africa will lose those 7 points of trade. Commerce is dependent on the consent of both parties, so if Nation X says it's trading with Nation Y, but Nation Y says it isn't, then those points are non-existent and the shipping units are worthless. Naturally, more commerce should be with allies and members of whatever economic pact you're a part of, but it can come from anywhere.

UN Sanctions
In the unlikely event the UN is organized and efficient enough to slap a sanction on you, you lose all your commerce points. No one will trade with you. Basically what happened to RL South Africa during the Seventies and Eighties. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Dispersed Shipping
Trade is assumed with all nations, with only the "trading partners" being influential enough to actually affect an economy through sanctions. However, a certain amount of trade will always exist, and so shipping units that are "dispersed" (i.e. not directed at any one nation) are not affected by sanctions. Only three points can be dispersed in this way, though.

III. Energy, Natural Resources, and Pollution [to be updated as needed]

Section A: Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Energy points fuel domestic production. They also fuel commerce, military forces, and tourism. Only oil can be used to fuel commerce, military forces and tourism, but any energy source can be used to fuel domestic production. Each energy point fuels production, commerce, tourism and military forces to a varying degree of efficiency based on tech level.

Tech level 4 – 7
1 energy point fuels 20 points of domestic production (not production centers, actual production as energy use increases if demand increases). Military units require oil equal to their maintenance cost. 1 Oil point can fuel up to 20 points of military units. Coal or oil can be used to fuel shipping.

Tech level 7.5
1 energy point fuels 25 points of domestic production. Oil can fuel up to 25 points of military units, tourism or commerce. Lighter materials (more aluminum and plastic in use for one thing) and more efficient engines provides more efficient energy use. Military units require oil equal to their maintenance cost unless nuclear powered or light infantry forces (in which case its 0). Military, tourism and commerce costs can be combined. Ethanol can also be used to fuel tourism. Coal can be used to fuel 10% of your shipping.

Tech level 8
1 energy point fuels 30 points of domestic production. Oil can fuel up to 25 points of military units, tourism or commerce. In addition to additional new materials, computer controls come into use providing even more efficiency. Ethanol can also be used to fuel tourism and 10% of your commerce. Coal can be used to fuel 10% of your shipping.

Tech level 8.5
1 energy point fuels up to 40 points of domestic production. Oil can fuel up to 25 points of military units, tourism or commerce. Ethanol can also be used to fuel tourism and 10% of your commerce

Importing Energy
You can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Section B: Energy Resources [to be amended as needed]
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river). This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

The Americas
Canada
Oil 5, Coal 4, Natural Gas 7, Hydroelectric 5
(Canada gets another 5 oil at tech level 8 for its oil sands which require that technology to economically extract)(2 ethanol possible)
USA
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5, Alternative (ethanol) 1 (5 more possible)
(add 5 more oil once tech level 7.5 is reached representing Alaskan oil and the technology needed to extract it)(2 more hydroelectric possible)
Central America (includes Mexico)
Oil 7, Natural Gas 2, hydroelectric 1 (2 ethanol possible)
Caribbean
Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 2 (1 ethanol possible)
FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible), nuclear 9, (2 ethanol possible)
Brazil
Alternative (ethanol) 1 (+ 1 a year every 3 years until 5 is reached) Natural gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (3 more possible), at tech level 7.5 will gain 4 oil points (deep drilling technology)
Dutch Caribbean
Oil 2, Natural Gas 1

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Oil 3 (Angola), Coal 4, Nuclear 6, Natural Gas 1 (Angola) (1 ethanol possible)
Nigeria
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1 (2 potential hydroelectric)
West Africa
Oil 1
Congo 0 (4 potential hydroelectric, 1 potential oil... will require aid to develop)
Liberia
Nuclear 1

Note:
The Following African nations can develop 1 alternative energy (ethanol) point: Sierra Leon, Liberia, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Togo, Benin, Gabon, Mozambique.

The following African nations can develop 2 alternative energy (methane) points: Nigeria, Congo, Belgian Congo, Uganda, Tanzania, Angola.

Middle East and North Africa
Morroco
Nuclear 1
Algeria
Oil 2, Natural Gas 5
Libya
Oil 3, Natural Gas 5
Saudi Arabia
Oil 20, Natural Gas 4
Oman
Oil 4, Natural Gas 1
Kuwait
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5
Baghdad
Oil 1, Natural gas 1
Basra
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Kurdistan
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2, Hydroelectric 1
Turkey
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1
Central Asian Republic
Oil 4, Natural Gas 6, Coal 3,
Kashgaria
Oil 1, Coal 1, Natural Gas 1
Armenia
Hydroelectric 1, Coal 1
Egypt
Hydroelectric 3, Nuclear power 2
Syria
Nuclear power 1
Jordan, Western Arabia, Yemen
No energy resources
Russia
Oil 10, Natural Gas 10 (both double at tech level 7.5 as technology for Arctic drilling becomes available), Coal 18, Hydroelectric 6, nuclear 5 (1 ethanol possible)

(special note: North America and Russia hold 50% of the worlds Natural Gas and Coal reserves… geography can be unfair at times. Makes up for all that oil in the Mideast. Africa and South America were treated unkindly by geography in many respects, as was Europe and Australia)

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2, nuclear 1, Oil 2 (newly discovered)(2 ethanol possible)
Rumania
Oil 2, Coal 1, Natural Gas 10
Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1 (1 ethanol possible)
Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 2
Germany
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 3, Natural Gas 2)
Czechslovakia
Coal 2
Balkans
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 1
Italy & Slovenia
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, Natural Gas 1 (potential 1 hydroelectric available)
France
Hydroelectric 1, Nuclear 2 (can develop 1 alternative energy ethanol as well)
Burgundy
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Bulgaria
coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Iberia
Hydroelectric 1
Iceland
alternative energy (geothermal) 1
British Isles
Coal 5, hydroelectric 1 (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 5, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 5

Asia and Oceania
Indian Subcontinent
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1 (potential hydroelectric 2)
Burma
Oil 1, Natural Gas 1
USAE
Hydroelectric 2, natural gas 1 (1 more hydroelectric possible) (2 alternative energy methane possible)
Parisal Islands (to USAE)
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Ceylon
Hydroelectric 1
China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4, nuclear 3 (4 more hydroelectric possible)(2 ethanol possible)
Philippines
Natural Gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (1 ethanol possible)
Spratley Islands (China gets 2, rest to PI which is selling to whomever)
Oil 4, Natural Gas 4
Korea
Coal 2, hydroelectric 2, nuclear 1
Japan
Coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Indonesia
Oil 5, Natural Gas 10, Coal 4,
Malaysia and Brunei
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2 (can develop 1 alternative energy methane)
Australasia
Oil 1, Natural Gas 3, Coal 8

The oil that becomes available at tech level 7.5 will become available 5 years after reaching tech level 7.5 (so in other words, North Sea oil becomes available in 1963). This can be sped up if you spend 24 points on research and development costs (the year after that money is spent it becomes available). Even if you don’t develop it, the oil companies will with permission (hence the 5 year timeline)

At tech level 7.5, you can spend 12 points and gain a hydroelectric point IF you have undeveloped hydroelectric potential.

Ethanol development costs 24 points for the research, and starts at 1, increasing by 1 a year every 3 years to the maximum indicated. If I didn't indicate you can develop it, its because you don't have the spare cropland to do so, or aren't in a good region for growing sugercane or excess cerals needed for the production of it.

Section C: Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population Density Pollution
See this chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_population_density_map.PNG

Look at the nation that you own (if you own several real life nations, look at the one biggest in land area). Then reduce the figure by 40% if Asian, African or Latin American, 10% if European, Japan, North American or Russia.

If your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution.
If your nation is 101 or higher your pollution index is -1%

Energy pollution
For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

Economic pollution
For every 400 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 550 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 400 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0.
This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations with negative growth end up with 0 growth each year they have a negative pollution index. If that negative growth continues for 10 years, then the full effects of the negative growth begin to impact their economy (they start losing production centers). This will have nasty social consequences as well. In addition, their population will decrease by -1% a year for each year after the 10 year grace period is exceeded. After another 10 years, they suffer a massive catastrophic consequence. Population decreases by -20% all at once (50% chance, massive pandamics) or -2% a year for 10 years (50% chance, increased cancer rates etc)

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors that are downwind (generally this means east of you in Asia or west of you in Europe due to the vagaries of air currents). Your neighbors in other words get another -1% to their growth. They will generally dislike this.

IV. Tech Level Advancements [To Be Updated As Needed]

Tech Level 7
Nigeria will reach Tech Level 7 in 1962. Poor little fella.

Tech Level 7.5
Criteria:
Tech level 7.5 is the initial wave of the information age and the final surge of the industrial revolution. Both industry AND communications systems are important, as is consumer demand. Also, applied science is critical for this step, and the leading nations have been spending longer then the others. Just as importantly, tech level isn't just military, but also civilian economy, and sufficient incentives to advance AND a highly trained work force are key.

You must meet at least FOUR of these conditions before advancing:
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.

In addition, you need to spend 5 points a year for 5 years in order to develop a home-grown electronics industry; the earliest anyone will reach level 7.5 is 1958. In each economic build, please list what conditions you meet that year, and which year of the electronics industry buildup you're on.

Tech Level 8
In order to advance to level 8, you'll need to meet all five of the above criteria, and spend 5 points a year for 10 years developing microcomputers, plus create an improved satellite communications network or be paying the cost of one. For purposes of realism, the earliest anyone will reach Tech Level 8 is 1970.

Thanks to Galveston Bay for coming up with this system.

V. NPC Economies
In order to take some of the burden of of Parthini, some players have volunteered to handle some NPC economies, posting their builds and so forth. The following players have done so:

Galveston Bay will handle builds for Canada, Mexico, Central America, Liberia, independent Caribbean nations, Morocco, Iceland and the Philippines.

Lesser Ribena will handle builds for British Africa, Malaysia, Burma, British Caribbean nations (as those nations gain independence) plus Kuwait and Yemen (eventually).

Malkyer will handle Oman, Western Arabia, and others as needed.

Safehaven2 will do builds for Turkey, Central Asia, Azerbajain, Poland, Ukraine Kashgaria

Ato-Sara will take care of builds for Basra, Baghdad, the Netherlands and Belgium.

Koryan will cover Ethiopia.

Wanna add me to the list who has intelligence agencies?

Done.

Everyone else, if you'll let me know as you gain an intelligence agency, I'll add you to the list.

GB was coming up with some rules to represent economic pacts and he said maybe +1% growth for each country in the pact.

Should we use this?

I think we should implement that; it makes sense, after all. I mean, why would someone join an economic pact if there were no good effects from it?

GB was coming up with some rules to represent economic pacts and he said maybe +1% growth for each country in the pact.

Should we use this?

I see no reason why not. I'll add that to the main post.

Hello Malkyer, could you please reference the new military thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472652) in your first post so that people know where to find costs and maintence?

Cheers.

Hello Malkyer, could you please reference the new military thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=472652) in your first post so that people know where to find costs and maintence?

Cheers.

Edited.

Western European Economic Pact (not sure on the actual name)

Members: UK, Germany, France, Lowland Region (Belgium, Netherlands).

Benefits: Reduced Tariffs, shared technolgy research and benefits

I've probably missed something out, but the other members will be able to correct any errors.

Since time resumes Monday, I suggest that people go ahead and begin posting their builds for that year (1950).

I was thinking about the Economic Pact thing and I think it is too easy.

I mean, I could say, "I'm in an individual economic pact with Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Slovenia. My Economy doubles."

That doesn't make any sense.

I think there should be requirements for making the economic pact something. For example, it would need to have some sort of necessity between the two (or more) nations. A good example would be a pact between Sweden and Germany. Sweden has iron, Germany needs it. Instead of Sweden being a pain, it loosens restrictions on Iron and it flows almost freely to Germany, thus allowing the big businesses to flourish. Growth jumps one point!

However, if say, Colombia and Brazil made a pact, lowering their tariffs would do nothing as both countries have lots of coffee and minerals and Brazil doesn't have a large demand for oil.

Now, I'm not saying the Seoul Treaty is useless. That is something that I could see generating a point of growth as the smaller, more industrialized nations like Korea and Japan get resources from China and India while helping them industrialize.

I also think that maybe some sort of infrastructure might be needed? Like maybe 5 or 6 trade units (airplanes, shipping) should have to be dedicated to the pact. Like if I was in one with Sweden, I would have to dedicate 5 of my shipping units to trade with Sweden, thus meaning I only had 25 to trade with Britain, America, the East and the rest of Europe.

Also, I think there should be some sort of standard for the size of the nations so that Bhutan and Nepal won't get +1% growth from trading with eachother.

However, I could be getting too complicated. Just putting forth the suggestion.

LR, you forgot Burgundy.

Also, It's called the European Economic Community I think

Lastly, do I get anything for hosting the World Cup?

I concur with Parthini. Some sort of a minimum requirement should be set, such as economic advantages, minimum tech level (6 or 7), import/export advantages, minimum industrial base or population so that some of the more resourceful (some would say devious) nations can't just set up a pact with say, Paraguay, Nicaragua and Bhutan and increase their growth.

I think you're right about the economic pacts, Parth. I'll look into that and try to figure out something that works. I may also look into rules for trade sanctions and embargos. Until then, economic pacts will not have an in-game effect on people's economies.

I know you get five points for hosting the Olympics, but I'm not familiar enough with the World Cup to know how much it impacts the host country's economy. Any suggestions from soccer aficionados?

Added rules for covert research.

The SCT is an economic pact.

The SU now has an intel agency

The Republic of the Phillipines and the Empire of Japan are also in the SCT.

I'm going to rearrange where all of my industry is because it really doesn't make sense for Danzig to be fully industrialized while Saarbrucken has absolutely none. I hope no one minds, it's just been bothering me lately.

German Build 1950
Population: 75 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular spending +1% EEC
Production: 75, 2 oil points, 6 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 30 shipping units (3 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 2 Bremen, 6 Hamburg, 2 Hannover, 7 Berlin, 2 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden, 1 Karlsruhe, 3 Saarbrucken, 1 Stuttgart, 5 Munich, 3 Vienna, 2 Stettin, 2 Danzig, 1 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 150 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+6 tourist+3 foreign shipping= 210 points

Maintainance (35):
20 Elite Garrisons-10
6 Elite Pilots-3 points
4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
8 Elite Mechanized Inf-8
1 Alpine-.25
4 Mech Flak-2
5 Mech Artillery-2

1 HQ-1 point

1 Destroyer Squadron-.25

2 Arado Ar 232-.5 points
4 TA183D-2 points

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (37):
Level 4 for 75 Million-37 points

Civilian Builds (40):

Nuclear Power Research-12 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-2 points

Air Terminal (Munich)-4 points

Debt Repayment to Colombia 36 out of 36-10 points

*Secret* Arab "Outreach" Program-7 points+3 Egyptian points
-Train 1 Arab Infantry Corps
-Train 2 Arab Average Pilot

UN Aid-1 point

6% Growth: 8 Industry Centers

Military Builds (95):

Purchase of 3 Colombian Carriers-25 points

1 HQ-10 points

11xElite Pilots-44 points

9xTA200-18 points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimated German Build 1951
Population: 75 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 83, 2 oil points, 7 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area,1 Munich), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 30 shipping units (3 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 2 Bremen, 7 Hamburg, 2 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 2 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 5 Munich, 1 Salzburg, 3 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 3 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 166 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+7 tourist= 223 points

I dont ever recall posting the 1949 budget, but here's '49 and '50.

1949
Income: 28 (12 pts German aid, 8 shipping, 2 from airlines, 6 from production)
Growth: 1 new production center (unusable, in Beirut)

Constant Spending
Lvl 5 Social Services: 2
Maintenance: 2.25

Programs
Rural Electrification: .25 (year 2/2)
Improved Infrastructure: .25 (year 2/3)
V-1 program: 12 (12/24)

Spending
Repayment-Germany: 1
3 Shipping Units: 9
UN aid: 1.25


1950
Income: 20.9 (11 shipping, 2 from airlines, 6 from production, 1.9 rural electrification)

Constant Spending
Lvl 5 Social Services: 2
Maintenance: 2.25

Programs
Improved Infrastructure: .25 (year 3/3)
V-1 program: 12 (24/24)

Spending
Repayment-Germany: 1
1 Shipping Unit: 3
UN aid: .4

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1950 builds:

Population 33 million
Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, peacetime 3%

Production centers: Seoul 3 Pusan 3 Pyongyang 3 Vladivostok 2, 11 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines), and 2 points of tourism (Seoul and Pyongyang International Airports)

45 points (rounded)+ Growth (1.35)= 46 points (rounded)

Level 3 social spending- 9 points

Foreign Aid- 12 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

2 infantry division .5 points
2 mountain infantry brigades .5 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance

Korean Air Force:

1 F86 fighter unit –.5 points
2 Corsair fighter bomber units .25 points
1 C47 transport unit .25
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance

Total: 9 points

Things to buy-

1 shipping unit- 3 points

2 points for a unit of Ht-1 Jin Helicopters

6 points for 2 units of Coastal patrol vessels

I'm a little confused about maximum industrial potential. This is what I do remember with GB and the supposed chart of maximums.

1. Tech level 1 - 5 = 1 point per 1 million.
2. Tech level 6 = 2 points per 1 million.
3. Tech level 7 = 4 points per 1 million.
4. Tech level 8+ = Maybe 5 points per 1 million? GB wasn't clear on this or didn't elaborate.

Point = 1 factory unit or production center.

I can see tech level 8+ having 5 or 6 points per 1 million especially with computers, automation, and robotics (which lessens the manpower requirement in factories obviously).

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 point per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 points per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 points for every 1 million people.

Here's the rule we have for economic potential so far. It's 2 points per million for Tech 7, and 3 for Tech 8.

Here's the rule we have for economic potential so far. It's 2 points per million for Tech 7, and 3 for Tech 8.

That can't be right.

When nations were / are tech level 6, we actually were going by 2 points per 1 million population.

That can't be right.

When nations were / are tech level 6, we actually were going by 2 points per 1 million population.

That's new to me, at the risk of sounding stupid. Then again, when Korea was at Tech Six, I had not followed growth potential (Now I do!).

The SCT is an economic pact.

I am too.

And I think the SCT is more than large enough for it to address Parth's concern.

USEA 1950 build

Population: 40 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 10% Rural Electrification bonus + 1% SCT Economic Bonus= 14%}]

Economic budget: 87 points (Production centers [34]: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 2, Pnomh Penh 2, Bangkok 2, Haiphong 2, Da Nang 2, Cam Ranh 2, Si Racha 1. Commerce[35]: 1x National Airline 2, 22x Shipping Units 33 [15,000,000 million tons]. Tourism [4]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 1, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[14]: 7 )

Domestic:

Level 3 Social spending- 12 points

Infrastructure Improvement (TRP)- 2 points (60% complete)

2x Shipping unit (500,000 tons)- 6 points

Airport construction project- 8 points


Military:

Infrastructure Improvements- 24 points

1x Nyugen Ai Quoc Heavy fleet carrier battle group- 15 points

1x Nyugen Ai Quoc Heavy fleet carrier battle group- 13 points [To be completed next year]


Maintenace:
4 infantry corps 2 points,
1 parachute brigade .25 points,
1 HQ unit 1 point,
1 marine light infantry brigade .25 points,
2 flak groups .5 points,
1 mechanized infantry division .5 points.
-
1 F84 fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 AD1 Skyraider light bomber unit .25 points,
3 expert pilots .75 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,

TOTAL= 7

That can't be right.

When nations were / are tech level 6, we actually were going by 2 points per 1 million population.

Also I remember GB saying that Tech level 7 industry has a substantially higher industrial capacity and saying something about 4 points per 1 million for Tech level 7.

I think it there was a problem with the wording. It is 2 factories per 1 million people at Level 7. At level six it is 1 factory per 1 million. On the front, it says point, but at least according the US builds, it is factory. At least, that's what I'm doing.

Okay, as I understand it, it's been 2 points per million at tech level 6, 3 per million at level 7, and 4 per million at level 8, and so on.

Each production center (factory) is worth 2 points at Peacetime Spending.

To put it chart form:

Tech Level 1-5: 1 point/million people
Tech Level 6: 2 points/million people
Tech Level 7: 3 points/million people

...and so on and so forth.

Okay, as I understand it, it's been 2 points per million at tech level 6, 3 per million at level 7, and 4 per million at level 8, and so on.

Each production center (factory) is worth 2 points at Peacetime Spending.

To put it chart form:

Tech Level 1-5: 1 point/million people
Tech Level 6: 2 points/million people
Tech Level 7: 3 points/million people

...and so on and so forth.

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 point per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 points per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 points for every 1 million people.

You got it a tad mixed up. Its:

Tech Level 1-6: 1 factory(2 points)/million people
Tech Level 7: 2 factory (4 points)/million people
Tech Level 8: 3 factory (6 points)/million people

...and so on and so forth.

South African Budget 1950
Population: 26,941,000
Income: 78
Production: 42 (21 production centers)
Commerce: 30 (20 shipping units)
Airline: 4
Tourism: 2
Annual Growth: 3% (Market)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep- 12.75 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-8 points

Government Projects
5/6x Production Center (Lusaka)-20 points
Air Traffic Monitoring Stations-24 points
2x Jet-capable airport (Durban and Salisbury)-8 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Surplus
.25 points

Projected 1951 Income: 84 (+2 production centers (4 points) from growth, +2 tourism)

Parthini']You got it a tad mixed up. Its:

Tech Level 1-6: 1 factory(2 points)/million people
Tech Level 7: 2 factory (4 points)/million people
Tech Level 8: 3 factory (6 points)/million people

...and so on and so forth.

You're right, my mistake.

Parthini']You got it a tad mixed up. Its:

Tech Level 1-6: 1 factory(2 points)/million people
Tech Level 7: 2 factory (4 points)/million people
Tech Level 8: 3 factory (6 points)/million people

...and so on and so forth.

Ahhhhh.... Now THAT makes sense.

I propose that for each successive tech level advancement, we gain +1 factory per million. For example...

Tech level 9 = 4 factories (8 points) per million people.
Tech level 10 = 5 factories (10 points) per million people.

And so on.

That sounds good.

Ahhhhh.... Now THAT makes sense.

I propose that for each successive tech level advancement, we gain +1 factory per million. For example...

Tech level 9 = 4 factories (8 points) per million people.
Tech level 10 = 5 factories (10 points) per million people.

And so on.

that would be next century for sure.. and may be an underestimate

by the way, US 1950 builds posted

I have an extremely important issue to bring up. Me and Parthini have been discussing population growth.

We're trying to determine the population growth and I've been thinking of implementing a 1.5% average population growth for all nations.

Please share your thoughts on this.

1950 Proposed Budget:

Gran Colombia (Colombia, Venezuela, Panama, Ecuador, Surinam, Guyana, French Guyana, Martinique, Guadeloupe)
Population: 14 million
Tech level 7
Production centers: Panama 5, Cartegena 2, Mariacoba 2, Caracas 2, Bogota 3
Oil Points:
7 Oil Points
Special:
6 points from Panama Canal, 2 points from Ecuador (cash crops and minerals), 1 point from Surinam (minerals), 1 point from Guyana (cash crops)
1950 budget:
59 points + 50 points from International Trade = 109p

Upkeep/Military:
4 x Mechanized Divisions = 4p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
2 x Missile Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
3 x Light Ships (15 Destroyers) = .75p
2 x Light Ships (20 Frigates) = .75
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x Upgraded MRBM = 1p
Total Cost: 38.25p

Civil Expendatures: Level V, 15p

Other Expendatures (56.5 + 10 [Assumed] from Germany + 25 from Germany for sale of Carriers = 91.5):
24 points to Nuclear Fission Research (Third Year, Shared with SU)
12 points to ICBM research
12 for 10 frigates
10 points to World Bank/UN development fund
10 points to cover further tax cuts
6 Points for Free Milk to Population
17.5 points for later spending.

I have an extremely important issue to bring up. Me and Parthini have been discussing population growth.

We're trying to determine the population growth and I've been thinking of implementing a 1.5% average population growth for all nations.

Please share your thoughts on this.

That seems unnecessary, especially since historical populations are available here (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html) and here (http://www.geohive.com/global/index.php).

1.5% just seems arbitrary to me. Some countries are going to have higher or lower percentages of increase. For example, the South African population increased roughly 1.1 million from 1949 to 1950, which was over a 9% increase in one year. Whereas from 1948 to '49 it only increased by 2%. I don't know why, but it's obviously erratic.

I can understand having to adjust for countries that lost a lot of people during the Third World war, but just picking a uniform percentage for everyone doesn't make much sense to me.

That seems unnecessary, especially since historical populations are available here (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html) and here (http://www.geohive.com/global/index.php).

1.5% just seems arbitrary to me. Some countries are going to have higher or lower percentages of increase. For example, the South African population increased roughly 1.1 million from 1949 to 1950, which was over a 9% increase in one year. Whereas from 1948 to '49 it only increased by 2%. I don't know why, but it's obviously erratic.

I can understand having to adjust for countries that lost a lot of people during the Third World war, but just picking a uniform percentage for everyone doesn't make much sense to me.

One problem, well, a major one...

We can't use exact historical population figures because of many reasons.

1. WW-3 killed 125 million people, whereas our RL WW-2 killed less.

2. The USA, India, China, and Russia got n00ked and bio-attacked and chem-attacked, which results in substantial population loss during WW-3.

3. Many nations have industrialized earlier in our timeline, which means different population growth rates than in RL.

4. Several natural disasters have been reduced in damage and fatalities such as China building better dam systems in E20 timeline than RL timeline, reducing flood damage and deaths.

5. A worse version of the Spanish Influenze epidemic in E20 timeline than RL timeline.

And so on. Besides, a 1.5% population growth is a compromise between low population growth (USA, UK, Canada) and high population growth (Most African nations and Third World nations). The population growth can be adjusted somewhat by population control policies (like RL China) or population growth encouragement policies (like Australia).

British Builds 1950
(Important bits are italicised).

Standard market economy, 3% growth (plus one for EEC)

Production Centres: 79 as follows: 12 London, 10 Birmingham, 6 Coventry, 6 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 5 Newcastle, 5 Sheffield, 5 Edinburgh, 5 Bristol, 5 Leeds,

INCOME
Production Centres: 158 points
Colonial Support: 18 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign))
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 7 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; Nigeria airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German government for ESA manned launches: 2 points
From French government for ESA manned launches: 2 points
From German government for nuclear power program: 12 points

TOTAL: 252

growth yields 10 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 56
level 4 social services for UK (50m): 25
level 4 social services for Empire (90m): 45
level 4 social serviced for British, Moroccan and Algerian UN mandates (20m): 10
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance)
5 points for manned mission costs (second sub orbital mission)

Extraordinary Expenditure:
24 points for Nuclear fuelling technology (year 1 of 2)
12 points for tactical nuclear weapons research (year 1 of 5)
24 points for nuclear power program (year 3 of 3)
24 points to start ICBM missile program (24/48 complete)
4 points for 1 highly trained mechanised division
8 points for 2 C124 globemaster aircraft wings
4 points for 2 average pilots

Total: 252

ESA Research= 6 points (To Heligoland Space Centre)

ESA funding this year only requires 2 points each as no new research can be conducted until I finish ICBM research. Though we will continue to conduct sub orbital launches.


You may wish to start missile research yourself in order to keep your military up to date...

One problem, well, a major one...

We can't use exact historical population figures because of many reasons.

1. WW-3 killed 125 million people, whereas our RL WW-2 killed less.

2. The USA, India, China, and Russia got n00ked and bio-attacked and chem-attacked, which results in substantial population loss during WW-3.

3. Many nations have industrialized earlier in our timeline, which means different population growth rates than in RL.

4. Several natural disasters have been reduced in damage and fatalities such as China building better dam systems in E20 timeline than RL timeline, reducing flood damage and deaths.

5. A worse version of the Spanish Influenze epidemic in E20 timeline than RL timeline.

And so on. Besides, a 1.5% population growth is a compromise between low population growth (USA, UK, Canada) and high population growth (Most African nations and Third World nations). The population growth can be adjusted somewhat by population control policies (like RL China) or population growth encouragement policies (like Australia).

as much as I am keen on having my population grow that quickly, 1.5% does seem a little arbitrary. Sharina, right before the "great schism" didnt you try to do a back-up of all the important threads to Word or something like that? I thought i remembered seeing that on chatzy at some point.

I ask because I thought that one of the posts that Vas deleted (possibly from the beginning of the Economics thread) involved the population growth rates for most nations. They may not be as accurate anymore but they will be a great deal better than a guess we make.

Parthini']You got it a tad mixed up. Its:

Tech Level 1-6: 1 factory(2 points)/million people
Tech Level 7: 2 factory (4 points)/million people
Tech Level 8: 3 factory (6 points)/million people

...and so on and so forth.

If this is true than Australia with 15 million people and Tech level 7 will be able to get 30 factories and 60 points, correct? (and of course the temporary addition of Indonesia's 30 million people wont count)

If this is true than Australia with 15 million people and Tech level 7 will be able to get 30 factories and 60 points, correct? (and of course the temporary addition of Indonesia's 30 million people wont count)

I believe so.

Australia / Tech Level / Population / Total Maximum Economy (points)

Australia / Tech level 5 / 15 million population / maximum = 30 points.

Australia / Tech level 6 / 15 million population / maximum = 30 points.

Australia / Tech level 7 / 15 million population / maximum = 60 points.

Australia / Tech level 8 / 15 million population / maximum = 90 points.


----------------------------

As for the population growth, I can't seem to find accurate population growth posted before Vas went and deleted everything.

I thought 1.5% growth would be a nice average, seeing as today's RL global population growth is 1.2% in 2006 but it stands to reason the population growths would be slightly higher in 1950 (post WW-3 in our timeline) as people try to re-populate after losing so many people during WW-3.

Sometimes arbitation is a necessary evil to simplify things somewhat. Try to imagine doing 50+ different population growth rates- thats a bit too much work for Parthini and Malkyer to handle. We have probably 15 player controlled nations and roughly 40+ NPC nations.

Population growth for nation 1 = 0.7%.
Population growth for nation 2 = 1.1%.
Population growth for nation 3 = 0.95%.
.
.
.
Population growth for nation 60 = 1.08%

Get the idea? Thats too much work, ya know? So if we use an "average" population growth, then we don't have to figure out each individual nation's population growth %-wise.

However, perhaps we could introduce variants, like a population growth in Government Cuts mode = 2% (Baby boom kind of deal) or National Effort = 1% (people too tired to take care of kids or make love in bed to produce children after working 12 or 16 hour work days) and 3% for wartime (try to have as many babies as possible so that the nation can replenish its soldiers and civilians lost).

Then once we reach 1980's and tech level 8, we can reduce the global average from 1.5% to 1% (then adjust the economy mode population growths accordingly, like 0.5% for national effort, 1.5% for government cuts mode, and 1% for normal mode).

Summary:

1950 - 1980 Population Growth:

Global average: 1.5%

Government Cuts mode: 2%
Normal Economy: 1.5%
National Effort: 1%
Wartime: 3%

1980+ Population Growth:

Global average: 1%

Government Cuts mode: 1.5%
Normal Economy: 1%
National Effort: 0.5%
Wartime: 2%

Just throwing around ideas here.

Get the idea? Thats too much work, ya know? So if we use an "average" population growth, then we don't have to figure out each individual nation's population growth %-wise.

However, perhaps we could introduce variants, like a population growth in Government Cuts mode = 2% (Baby boom kind of deal) or National Effort = 1% (people too tired to take care of kids or make love in bed to produce children after working 12 or 16 hour work days).

Just throwing around ideas here.

I second that idea. An average pop growth rate would be better for people, especially any potential newbies we get, to understand.

Also, I like the idea of variations when you change economic types, though I think another potential system would be choosing growth options, like a "Limit Growth" similar to RL China would reduce growth to 1%, "Normal Growth" would leave it stable at 1.5%, and some measure to encourage growth--either banning contraceptives or giving incentives for more kids--would boost it to 2-3%. This may have been discussed earlier, but I'm not sure.

Then once we reach 1980's and tech level 8, we can reduce the global average from 1.5% to 1% (then adjust the economy mode population growths accordingly, like 0.5% for national effort, 1.5% for government cuts mode, and 1% for normal mode).

I also think this idea might be okay, though I think it would be better to reduce pop growth when a majority reaches Tech 8.

I second that idea. An average pop growth rate would be better for people, especially any potential newbies we get, to understand.

Also, I like the idea of variations when you change economic types, though I think another potential system would be choosing growth options, like a "Limit Growth" similar to RL China would reduce growth to 1%, "Normal Growth" would leave it stable at 1.5%, and some measure to encourage growth--either banning contraceptives or giving incentives for more kids--would boost it to 2-3%. This may have been discussed earlier, but I'm not sure.

I also think this idea might be okay, though I think it would be better to reduce pop growth when a majority reaches Tech 8.


Yay for this idea, however I think that the limit and promote growth options would cost points based on population, e.g. 2 points per 10 million.
Maybe if we wanted to get some more complexity we could add varying levels of growth limititaion/promotion (E.g. 2 points per 10 million= -1%, 3 points per 10 million= -2%, etc.)
Different costs for different tech levels could be done as well.

Yay for this idea, however I think that the limit and promote growth options would cost points based on population, e.g. 2 points per 10 million.
Maybe if we wanted to get some more complexity we could add varying levels of growth limititaion/promotion (E.g. 2 points per 10 million= -1%, 3 points per 10 million= -2%, etc.)
Different costs for different tech levels could be done as well.

Hmm...

However, we have to remember to keep things as simple as possible otherwise it could end up putting off new propsective players.

Hence, the reason for abitration in this case (as its a necessary evil). If we had a standard population growth instead of 60+ different population growth rates, it would be A LOT easier on the mods and players alike, and using 3 stages of population growth (High, standard, and low) would add the needed "interest" while keeping it simple.

Low population growth = 1/2 standard "average" population growth.
Standard growth = average growth (1.5% in this case, pre tech level 8)
High population growth = 2x the standard / average growth.

Simple, yet flexible, yes?

Hmm...

However, we have to remember to keep things as simple as possible otherwise it could end up putting off new propsective players.

I at least think the varied levels of growth promotion/Limitation would be a good idea but with each level it would get exponentially higher cost.

Yay for this idea, however I think that the limit and promote growth options would cost points based on population, e.g. 2 points per 10 million.
Maybe if we wanted to get some more complexity we could add varying levels of growth limititaion/promotion (E.g. 2 points per 10 million= -1%, 3 points per 10 million= -2%, etc.)
Different costs for different tech levels could be done as well.

I like the different costs for different tech levels. And, the cost per population. But, I would like to keep the system simple-perhaps leave the varying levels out.

I at least think the varied levels of growth promotion/Limitation would be a good idea but with each level it would get exponentially higher cost.

See above.

Low population growth = 1/2 standard "average" population growth.
Standard growth = average growth (1.5% in this case, pre tech level 8)
High population growth = 2x the standard / average growth.

Simple yet flexible, yes?

See above.

Low population growth = 1/2 standard "average" population growth.
Standard growth = average growth (1.5% in this case, pre tech level 8)
High population growth = 2x the standard / average growth.

Simple yet flexible, yes?

That's cool.

See above.

Low population growth = 1/2 standard "average" population growth.
Standard growth = average growth (1.5% in this case, pre tech level 8)
High population growth = 2x the standard / average growth.

Simple yet flexible, yes?

Yah that would work.

OOC: My spending will be a tad bit different this week, as the economy of India has been pretty much split in three by the current civil war.

IC:

Federated Asian States 1950 Build
Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime, Growth 3%(wartime doesn't take affect until 1951): 15 Commerce(11 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline) + 30.5 Production(total production centers:15.25) + 0 tourism(Civil War, no tourists would be THAT stupid) = 45.5 points

Population: 150 million people (OOC: This is a rough estimate)

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 1
x1 Mechanized .5
x4 Pilots 0
x4 C47 1
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1
x5 Light Infantry 1.25
x3 Armored 1.5 point
Total Spent: 7

Total Remaining: 38.5 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (30 points)

Total Spent: 37

Total Remaining: 8.5 points

Training:
x1 armored division 5 points
x3 infantry divisions 3 points

Total Spent: 45

Total Remaining: .5

Aid to other nations:
Tibet: .5

Total Spent: 45.5

Total Remaining: 0

United Islamic Republic:
Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime, Growth 3% (wartime doesn't take affect until 1951): 4 Commerce(4 merchant marine) + 10 Production(total production centers:5) + 3 oil + 0 tourism(Civil War, no tourists would be THAT stupid) = 17 points

Population = 24 million (rough estimate, took Iran and Afghanistans populations from 1950)

Maintenance:
x3 Mechanized 1.5
x2 Mujahideen (AKA Light Infantry) .5
x2 Garrison .5
Total Spent: 2.5

Total Remaining: 14.5 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (5 points)

Total Spent: 7.5

Total Remaining: 9.5 points

Training:
x1 armored 5 points
x4 mujahideen divisions 4 points

Total Spent: 16.5

Total Remaining: .5

Aid to other nations:
Saudi Arabia .5 points

Total Spent: 17

Total Remaining: 0

Peoples Democratic Republic of South Asia:
Spending Type: Command Economy Peacetime, Growth 2% (wartime doesn't take affect until 1951): 15 Commerce(15 merchant marine) + 22 Production(total production centers:11)l + 0 tourism(Civil War, no tourists would be THAT stupid) = 37 points

Population: 226 million people (really rough estimate here, I just took what the FAS's population is probably going to be in 1950, which is 400 million people, and subtracted 174 (which is the populations of the UIR and the current FAS combined) from said population)

Maintenance:
x4 Naxalite Infantry(AKA Light Infantry) 2
Total Spent: 2

Total Remaining: 35 points

Social Services:
Level 1 Social Services for everyone(23 points)

Total Spent: 25

Total Remaining: 12 points

Training:
x4 mechanized divisions 12 points

Total Spent: 37

Total Remaining: 0

Aid to other nations:
none

Total Spent: 37

Total Remaining: 0

China's build for 1950...

Income: 105 industry + 44 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 172 points total.
National Effort: 315 points + 44 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 369 points total.

Expeditures: 7 points = military, 49 points = social services (313 points remaining)

Unit Builds:

Build 2 pilots for 4 points.
Build 2 national airlines for 6 points.
Build 2 international airlines for 8 points.

Domestic Builds:

Rebuild 8 industrial centers for 96 points.
Build airports across China for 49 points.
49 points for rural electrification (year 1 of 2)

Other Builds:

72 points for nuclear infrastructure (year 1 of 3- 24 points spent this year and 48 points saved up this year to spend on years 2 and 3 as they roll around)

Foreign Investments:

12 points invested in Tibet.
5 points invested in Mongolia.

Donations:

12 points donated to Asian Space Program

Miscellanous:

6 factories repaired from natural growth.

----------------------------------------------

Start of 1951 economy:
119 industry (Reconstruction Completed)
50 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points and 10 airline points)
3 oil points
20 tourism income (maximum)
Total projected 1951 income: 192 points.

--------------------------------------------

Note 1:

China will begin debt repayments to Colombia and donate more points towards the Asian Space Program starting in 1951.

Note 2:

China will bump up its Social Services to Level II instead of Level III in 1951 so that it will be able to complete Rural Electrification, then begin Level III Social Services in 1952 onwards.

Question: As NPC Mod, can I hand out the UN aid?

Added rules for economic and trade agreements, and am currently working out rules for sanctions and embargos. Suggestions are appreciated.

Parthini']Question: As NPC Mod, can I hand out the UN aid?

As long as the [player] countries giving money to the World Bank have a say in who gets it, I don't see why not.

Added rules for economic and trade agreements, and am currently working out rules for sanctions and embargos. Suggestions are appreciated.

Japan is a member of the SCT.

Also I've had an idea on how to do trade embargoes.
It goes like this:

All commerce units (E.g. Shipping, Airlines, etc.) have to be directed to another country (E.g USA, Korea, Great Britain, etc) for you to be able to receive the points for them. However the other country has to agree to this and can take away it's consent at any time effectivley forming an embargo against that origional country.

Wouldn't the Arab League count as an economic pact?

From Wikipedia:
The League's charter states that the League shall co-ordinate economic affairs, including commercial relations; communications; cultural affairs; nationality, passports, and visas; social affairs; and health affairs.

Almost done with NPC Builds. Just have to dish out the World Bank Aid and we're all good. This year :headbang:

Wouldn't the Arab League count as an economic pact?

Which members are tech level 6?

me and egypt at least

According to the main thread, you'll both reach level 7 in 1952, so I guess the Arab League is a bonafide economic pact. I'll add it to the main thread. Was it formed in 1945, as in real history, or later?

This could get interesting, if a bunch of trading blocs form and become the new 'Great Powers' of the world, instead of individual nations.

Egypt, Syria, Morocco, and Algeria are all Level 6 members (and more will be soon).

Also I've had an idea on how to do trade embargoes.
It goes like this:

All commerce units (E.g. Shipping, Airlines, etc.) have to be directed to another country (E.g USA, Korea, Great Britain, etc) for you to be able to receive the points for them. However the other country has to agree to this and can take away it's consent at any time effectivley forming an embargo against that origional country.

Do you mean something along the lines of
Great Britain-5 shipping units
United States-5 shipping units
Australia-3 shipping units
FNS (Argentina)-3 shipping units
FAS (India)-3 shipping units
Italy-1 shipping unit

giving me 30 points with 20 units. Then for some reason the US embargos me, and I lose 7.5 points (five units at 1.5 points a unit)?

Only international airlines would be affected by embargos, and only if the country in question puts restrictions on trips to the embargoed nation (like the US does with Cuba). National airlines wouldn't, because they only deal with internal movement.

Do you mean something along the lines of


giving me 30 points with 20 units. Then for some reason the US embargos me, and I lose 7.5 points (five units at 1.5 points a unit)?

Only international airlines would be affected by embargos, and only if the country in question puts restrictions on trips to the embargoed nation (like the US does with Cuba). National airlines wouldn't, because they only deal with internal movement.

Yup, thats what I meant.
Also true with the national airline thing.

I like the idea. It adds some more in depth. Also, you could tie it to the Economic pact where you have to have a certain percentage of your trade directed towards members of your pact.

Also, an FYI, I had the UN build some shipping units for level 6- countries. I'm just assuming the UN hired independant contracters in like the US and UK to make the ships which were then given to the individual countries.

1950 - FNS


44 Million Population


115 base (4 points of growth) (145 potential) + 100 points from International Trade = 216p
Plus 35 from Germany
251pt total

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 38.25

168.75pts for Discretionary Spending


120 points - 5 Production Centers
24 Points ICBM research
24.75 Improve Transportation Connections between Peru, Ecuador, and Gran Colombia.

100 points from International Trade

Isn't the most you can get from trade 50 points?

Two countries merging. Precendent being the Union being able to utilize trade from its member states. In this case Im only using trade from Gran Colombia and FNS... if you want I can break it down by each individual country ;)


...plus Im almost an entire continent.

Um... when did this happen?!?!

Oh and the Union only had 40 points from trade at its max. I remember I was going to ask if we could have trade, but decided against it because suddenly, all of the British colonies would be dominions, each Japanese island would be a separate kingdom, Texas would regain autonimnity, etc.

Well... I believe Britain does get points from her Colonies through air-trade more than anyone else, which I can appreciate. While Germany may not have had any merchant vessels, other nations in the Union certainly did. Realistically, I don't know why my trade would drop anyways.

The Kingdom of Bulgaria
(Market Economy, Population: about 7.3 million)
Social Program level 3, Tech Level 7
The economy will have no major changes from 1949 except for natural economic growth and a new military sheet for 1950... Development and research could also be taken into account as well as trade and shipping.

Parthini']I like the idea. It adds some more in depth. Also, you could tie it to the Economic pact where you have to have a certain percentage of your trade directed towards members of your pact.

I think there would also have to be a limit to how many economic units could be directed at each country to stop some people having their closest ally handle all trade and not have to suffer embargo.

1950

The United Egyptian and Sudanese Republics
Population: 30 Million
Tech Level: 6
Production: 53.25
13 Egyptian Centers (26) + RE (2.5)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (9)
4 Sudanese Centers (8) + RE (.75)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)

Maintenance: 4.75
4 Garrison Units (1)
2 Infantry Corps (1)
3 Mechanized Divisions (1.5)
1 Mechanized Artillery (.5)
1 Armored Corps (.5)
1 Expert Pilot (.25)

Production: 43.25
Level 1 Social Services: 2.25 (Sudan’s Paid for with UN-aid leftovers)
International Airline for Egypt: 6
5 Shipping Units for Egypt: 15
2 Hawker Hunters: 6 (Made in the UK)
1 Expert Pilot: 2
Project Amenhotep I: 12

Foreign Aid: 5
Germany: 1
Ethiopia: 1 (Loan)
UN: 1 (Paid for with UN-aid leftovers)
Rashidi Family: 3 (Loan)

Budget: 53.25
Total Costs: 53
Remainders for Next Year: .25

Build 1950
43 prod centers-
Kiel 3, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 3, Tallin 1, Murmansk 1
30 shipping units
4 airlines
80 points Prod centers(National Effort), 40 points commerce, 2 points tourism

30.5 points- maintenance
6 points-lv 3 social
6 points-Nuke program
5 points-intel agency
12 points-nuclear fueling(year 2 of 4)
24 points-ICBM reseaqrch(1 of 2)
1 points-1 IRBM
4 points-chemical research stage 3(1 of 3)
14 points-aid to Islamists

+1 prod center from growth

14 points-aid to Islamists

I hope that's me!:D

OoC: I will be out of town tomorrow and most of Saturday. I'll be around to review everyone's builds and such late Saturday night (EST) and Sunday.

Population:
15 million Australiasian (30 million Indonesian)

Market Economy Peacetime--Tech Level 7
(Note--last year growth was 3% of 78 = 2.3 points rounds to 2 points of growth--2 new production centers, one in Adelaide and one in Canberra)
Production Centers:
Sydney 3; Melbourne 3; Adelaide 2; Canberra 2; Brisbane 3; Auckland 2; Perth 2 = 34
Oil Points:
4 From Indonesia = 4
Colonial:
Indonesia 6 (one industrial center makes 8); New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 12
Commerce:
18 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 31
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)

Budget for 1950: 34+4+12+31+1.5= 82.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
Level 3 Social Services to Indonesia = 9 points
20.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
10 Subs (2 units)--1 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
6 Pilots at Expert Level--1.5 point
1 Pilot at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions--1 point
2 Garrison Units at Average level--1 point
2 Light Marine Brigades (average training)--0.5 points
1 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--0.5 points
Airforce (4 jet fighters, 1 light bomber, 1 fighter-bomber, 1 transport)--2.75 points
12.25 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upgrade 2 Cruisers to Missile Cruisers--4 points
1 Heavy Cruiser--8 points (ready to use in 1953)
1 Light Cruiser--7 points (ready to use in 1953)
1 Attack Submarine Group--5 points
24 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
12 Points to finish Industrial Center in Indonesia
12 Points to begin new Industrial Center in Indonesia
24 Points Spent

20.5+12.25+24+24=80.75 Points Spent
1.75 Points given to World Bank

US Foreign Military and Economic Aid 1951
4 F101B Voodoo interceptors (12 points)(1 each for Morocco, Philippines, Oman, Algeria)

Foreign Aid
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Morocco (10 million people) 3 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Liberia (1 million people), 1 point ( year 1 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Mexico (32 million people), 9 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Central America, Iceland, Virgin Islands, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, (20 million people) 6 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural Electrification and transportation improvements for Oman, Western Arabia, Kurdistan, Turkey, Central Asia, Jordan (32 million people) 10 points (year 1 of 3)
2 production centers for Central Asia 48 points
World Bank 2.75 points
78.25 points

Special US spending 1951

Nuclear powerplants (to provide 5 energy points long term to supplement oil points) 125 points

(still pondering a way to easily simulate energy usuage in a way to simulate supply and demand needs.. although so we aren't at a crisis situation yet. Energy costs should start spiralling upward in the early 1960s though, as the world is far more industralized at this point then it was historically)

South African Budget 1951
Population: 26,586,000
Income: 84
Production: 46 (23 production centers)
Commerce: 30 (20 shipping units)
Airline: 4
Tourism: 4
Annual Growth: 3% (Market)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep- 12.75 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-8 points

Government Projects
1/6x Production Center (Lusaka)-4 points
Fuel Processing Plants-24 points
2x Jet-capable airport (Johannesburg and Windhoek)-8 points
7x Shipping Units-21
Improvement of Intelligence Network (spy trawlers, etc)-1 point

Foreign Aid
N/A

Surplus
.25 points

Projected 1952 Income: 101 (+3 production centers (2 from growth), +2 tourism, +10 commerce)

Either I'm too damn tired...Or One Stupid fuck...But ya lost me...

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1951 builds:

Population 33 million
Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%

21 points Production centers: Seoul 3 Pusan 3 Pyongyang 3 Vladivostok 3

12 shipping units= 18 Points

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points

and 2 points of tourism (Seoul and Pyongyang International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

47 total points to spend

Level 3 social spending- 9 points

Foreign Aid- 12 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

2 infantry division .5 points
2 mountain infantry brigades .5 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance

Korean Air Force:

1 F86 fighter unit –.5 points
2 Corsair fighter bomber units .25 points
1 C47 transport unit .25
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5

Total: 9 points (Estimated)

Things to buy-

2 points for an expert pilot to fly the Transport Copter (Ht-1 Jin)

Mechanized infantry division-4 points

Infantry corps-5 points

Either I'm too damn tired...Or One Stupid fuck...But ya lost me...


I'd go with stupid fuck......

I'd go with stupid fuck......

lets not go there...just drop it and move on

Uhh... who, how, or why are Xeraph and Mandalore Prime involved?

Uhh... who, how, or why are Xeraph and Mandalore Prime involved?


Xeraph isn't. Mandalore Prime ( Verboten Lufftewaffe's current incarnation ) and Xeraph have been allies and friends for many, many years. Perhaps it was rude of me to interfere with the proceedings, but he and I trade barbs and insults quite regularly. No offense was intended.

*UPDATED*

United Islamic Republic:

Spending Type: Market Economy Wartime, Growth 1% : 4 Commerce(4 merchant marine) + 10 Production(total production centers:5) + 3 oil + 0 tourism(As LT said, nobody is THAT stupid)+14 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 51 points

Population = 24 million

Maintenance:
x2 Mechanized 1
x5 Mujahideen (AKA Light Infantry) 1.25
x2 Garrison .5
X1 Armored Division .5
Total Spent: 3.25

Total Remaining: 47.75 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (5 points)

Total Spent: 8.25

Total Remaining: 42.75 points

Training:
x5 mujahideen divisions 5 points
X2 Infantry Corps 10 points
X2 Mech. Artillery group 10 points
X2 Mech. Inf. Div. 8 points

Total Spent: 41.25

Total Remaining: 1.5

Aid to other nations:
Saudi Arabia 1.5 points

Total Spent: 31

Total Remaining: 0

Xeraph isn't. Mandalore Prime ( Verboten Lufftewaffe's current incarnation ) and Xeraph have been allies and friends for many, many years. Perhaps it was rude of me to interfere with the proceedings, but he and I trade barbs and insults quite regularly. No offense was intended.

I also wish to apologize...For I find it Quite Sporting to bait the old man...

With that... Goes back to perusing this thread...To try & figure it out.

Ok, I hope I did everything ok. If I've made a mistake, please correct me.

United Islamic Republic:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime, Growth 3% (I'm unsure about this, what about the wartime effects?): 4 Commerce(4 merchant marine) + 10 Production(total production centers:5) + 3 oil + 0 tourism(As LT said, nobody is THAT stupid)+14 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 31 points

Population = 24 million

Maintenance:
x2 Mechanized 1
x5 Mujahideen (AKA Light Infantry) 1.25
x2 Garrison .5
X1 Armored Division .5
Total Spent: 3.25

Total Remaining: 27.75 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (5 points)

Total Spent: 8.25

Total Remaining: 22.75 points

Training:
x2 mujahideen divisions 2 points
X2 Infantry Corps 10 points
X1 Mech. Artillery group 5 points
X1 Mech. Inf. Div. 4 points

Total Spent: 29.25

Total Remaining: 1.75

Aid to other nations:
Saudi Arabia 1.75 points

Total Spent: 31

Total Remaining: 0

OOC: It's pretty good, 'cept for one thing....

Since it's War-time, each production center is now worth 6 points instead of 2, but you're growth is 1%.

That means you have 51 points this year.

UNLESS you want to do total war, where each production center is worth 12 points, but you're growing 0% (then -1% for each year of total war after the first year of tot. war), and then after the war you have -2% growth for each year of total war. In other words, you could have 81 points this year, at the expense of the economy being pretty effed up after the war ends.

Federated Asian States 1951 Build
Spending Type: Market Economy Total War, Growth 1%(normally 0%, but since I'm part of the SCT I get that itty bitty growth increase): 15 Commerce(11 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline) + 183 Production(total production centers:15.25) + 0 tourism(Civil War, no tourists would be THAT stupid) = 198 points

Population: 150 million people (OOC: This is a rough estimate)

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 1
x1 Mechanized .5
x4 Pilots 0
x4 C47 1
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1
x5 Light Infantry 1.25
x4 Armored 2 point
x3 Infantry .75
Total Spent: 8.75

Total Remaining: 97.75 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (30 points)

Total Spent: 38.75

Total Remaining: 159.25 points

Training:
x13 armored division 65 points
x8 P2V Neptune 16 points
x8 Average Pilots 16 points
x10 Mustard Gas "batches" 10 points
x2 Parachute Divisions 4 points
x4 Improved MRBMs 4 points
x20 Light Infantry 20

Total Spent: 182.5

Total Remaining: 16.5

Research:
Pulmonary agents (allows use of Phosgene) 12 points, year 1

Total Spent:194.5

Total Remaining: 4.5

Aid to other nations:
Tibet: 4.5

Total Spent: 198

Total Remaining: 0

USEA 1951 build

Population: 40 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 10% Rural Electrification bonus + 1% SCT Economic Bonus= 14%}]

Economic budget: 116 points (Production centers [48]: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 2, Pnomh Penh 2, Bangkok 2, Haiphong 2, Da Nang 2, Cam Ranh 2, Si Racha 2, Can Tho 2, Kampong Cham 2, Sattahip 2, Pakxe 2. Commerce[40]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 24x Shipping Units 36 [16,000,000 million tons]. Tourism [4]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 1, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[24]: 12 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 20 points

Infrastructure Improvement (TRP)- 2 points (100% complete)

Asian Space Program- 1.5 points

Military:

Nuclear Infrastructure- 24 points (60% complete)

Nuclear Fueling Capability- 24 points (50% Complete)

1x Heavy fleet carrier battle group- 2 points [Completed from last year]

2x Lan Xang class Heavy Missile Cruisers- 20 points

1x Zhao Tou class Light Missile Cruiser- 7 points

1x Coastal Patrol Groups- 3 points


Maintenance:
4 infantry corps 4 points,*
1 parachute brigade .75 points,*
1 HQ unit 1.5 point,*
1 marine light infantry brigade .75 points,*
2 flak groups 1 point,*
1 mechanized infantry division 1 points.*
-
1 F84 fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 AD1 Skyraider light bomber unit .25 points,
3 Elite pilots 1.5 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
1 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 1 point {under construction}

TOTAL= 12.5
(*Denotes elite training)

German Build 1951
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 83, 2 oil points, 7 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 30 shipping units (3 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 2 Bremen, 7 Hamburg, 2 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 2 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 5 Munich, 1 Salzburg, 3 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 3 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 166 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+7 tourist+3 Foreign Shipping= 226 points

Maintainance (55):
20 Elite Garrisons-10
17 Elite Pilots-8.5
4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
8 Elite Mechanized Inf-8
1 Highly Trained Alpine-.5
4 Mech Flak-2
5 Mech Artillery-2

2 HQ-2

2 Arado Ar 232-.5 points
4 TA183D-2 points
9 TA200-4.5 points
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (40):
Level 4 for 80 Million-40 points

Civilian Builds (30):

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-2 points

Air Terminal (Leipzig)-4 points

4% Growth: 9 Industry Centers

6 points to Egypt
6 points to Syria

10 points to *Arab Assistance Program*
-2 Infantry Corps

Military Builds (99):

2 Transport Groups-10 points

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-6 points
1 Frigate Flotilla-5 points
20 Corvettes (1 group)-5 points
2 Heavy Cruisers-16 points (year 1 of 3)

12 Garrisons-36 points

3 Do 337-9 points
3 Elite Pilots-12 points (year 1 of 2)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1951
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 91, 2 oil points, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 3 Bremen, 9 Hamburg, 3 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 3 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 6 Munich, 2 Salzburg, 4 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 182 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=240 points

[B]Market Economy Total War (not available until second year of war), Production centers worth 12 points, no growth first year, -1% growth second and additional years. Plus -2% growth for each year postwar for every year Total War economy was in place. (simulates post war recession, large budget deficits).

I remember Total War needed 3 years of war before being possible.

From what I remember....

Year 1 of war = peacetime or national effort.

Year 2 of war = wartime economy

Year 3 of war = stay on wartime or go total war economy

------------------------------------

So I believe... if the FAS war started up in 1950, the following modes should be available...

1950 - 1951 = National effort, most likely.
1952 = wartime economy
1953 = total war if TLS wishes it.

If the FAS civil war started in 1949...

1949 - 1950 = National effort. (3x production)
1951 = wartime. (6x production)
1952 = total war. (12x production)

British Builds 1951
(Important bits are italicised). Standard market economy, 3% growth (plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth)

Production Centres: 89 as follows: 15 London, 12 Birmingham, 6 Coventry, 6 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds,

INCOME
Production Centres: 178 points
Colonial Support: 18 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign))
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 7 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; Nigeria airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German government for ESA manned launches: 2 points
From French government for ESA manned launches: 2 points

TOTAL: 262

growth yields 10 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 56
level 4 social services for UK (51m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (100m): 50
level 4 social serviced for British, Moroccan and Algerian UN mandates (20m): 10
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance)
12 points for tactical nuclear weapons research (year 2 of 5)
24 points to finish ICBM missile program (48/48 complete)
5 points for manned mission costs (second sub orbital mission)

Extraordinary Expenditure:
9 points for three EE Lightning 3rd generation jets
6 points for three pilots
24 points for Nuclear fuelling technology (year 2 of 2)
14 batches of VX gas (15@1 point ea) = 14 points
1 heavy carrier battlegroup (jet capable)= 15 points

Total: 262

OOC: US and I are both helping improve Jordan's infrastructure. Does that mean if we each pay for one year now, it counts as 2?

Build 1951
44 prod centers-
Kiel 3, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 3, Tallin 2, Murmansk 1
30 shipping units
4 airlines
80 points Prod centers(National Effort), 40 points commerce, 2 points tourism

30.5 points- maintenance
6 points-lv 3 social
6 points-Nuke program
5 points-intel agency
12 points-nuclear fueling(year 3 of 4)
24 points-ICBM research(2 of 2)
4 points-chemical research stage 3(2 of 3)
14 points-aid to Saudi's

+1 prod center from growth

Syria 1951 Budget
Income:29 (6 Prod, 2 air, 12 shipping, 6 germany, 3 RE)
Constant Spending (4.25)
Level 5 Social Services: 2
Maintenance: 2.25 (about to skyrocket)
Available Spending (24)
500xV-1 Rockets: 1
Operation Munaasib: 3
Shipping Unit: 3
3xLight Infantry Division: 3
Improved Infrastructure for Palestine+Jordan: .25
Mechanized Infantry Division: 4
Mechanized Artillery Group: 5
Mechanized Flak Group: 5
(numbers may not add up to 0 due to rounding, any remnants can go to World Bank)

1951 - FNS

46 Million Population

145 base (5 points of growth) (145 potential) + 100 points from International Trade = 245

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 38.25

162.75pts for Discretionary Spending
6 Points to Nuclear Fueling
6 Nuclear Submarines - 30pts
2 Mechanized Divisions - 10pts
100 IRBM - 10pts
Free Milk for everyone - 44pts
62.75pts left for later use.

I remember Total War needed 3 years of war before being possible.

From what I remember....

Year 1 of war = peacetime or national effort.

Year 2 of war = wartime economy

Year 3 of war = stay on wartime or go total war economy

------------------------------------

So I believe... if the FAS war started up in 1950, the following modes should be available...

1950 - 1951 = National effort, most likely.
1952 = wartime economy
1953 = total war if TLS wishes it.

If the FAS civil war started in 1949...

1949 - 1950 = National effort. (3x production)
1951 = wartime. (6x production)
1952 = total war. (12x production)


Total War has always been just the second year of war. The war began in 1950, that was year one (it actually started in december 1949). 1951 is year two.

Total War has always been just the second year of war. The war began in 1950, that was year one (it actually started in december 1949). 1951 is year two.

I distinctly remember that it takes time to move from normal economy to national effort, then to wartime economy, then finally to total war. I recall that GB took 3 years to go to total war, or am I thinking of someone else during WW-3?

That seems unnecessary, especially since historical populations are available here (http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html) and here (http://www.geohive.com/global/index.php).

1.5% just seems arbitrary to me. Some countries are going to have higher or lower percentages of increase. For example, the South African population increased roughly 1.1 million from 1949 to 1950, which was over a 9% increase in one year. Whereas from 1948 to '49 it only increased by 2%. I don't know why, but it's obviously erratic.

I can understand having to adjust for countries that lost a lot of people during the Third World war, but just picking a uniform percentage for everyone doesn't make much sense to me.

OOC: yeah i was gonna say the same thing. I know im not well know in E20 but brazil right now only has 30+ mill for population. but curently #5 in the world for population acording to this chart. Hope its good input. http://www.geohive.com/charts/pop_now.php

Edited final 1951 build.

1951

The United Egyptian and Sudanese Republics
Population: 30 Million
Tech Level: 6
Production: 65.25
14 Egyptian Centers (28) + RE (2.5)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian International Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (14)
5 Sudanese Centers (10) + RE (.75)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)
Ethiopian Loan Repayment (1) (Still owes 3 more)

Maintenance: 6
4 Garrison Units (1)
3 Mechanized Divisions (1.5)
2 Infantry Corps (1)
2 Hawker Hunters (1)
2 Expert Pilots (.5)
1 Mechanized Artillery (.5)
1 Armored Corps (.5)

Production: 58
Level 2 Social Services: 6
5 Shipping Units for Sudan: 15
International Airline for Sudan: 6
Project Amenhotep I: 13
1 Dassault Mirage III: 4
1 Expert Pilot: 2
2 Armored Brigades: 4
4 Mountain Infantry Brigades: 8

Foreign Aid:
UN: 1 (9 Points Remaining, Have until 1962)
*Debts to Germany Cancelled*

Budget: 65.25
Remainders from Last Year: .25
Total Budget: 65.5
Total Costs: 65
Remainders for Next Year: .5

***Next Year Egypt reaches Tech Level 7!***

1951 - FNS

46 Million Population

145 base (5 points of growth) (145 potential) + 100 points from International Trade = 245

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 38.25

162.75pts for Discretionary Spending
6 Points to Nuclear Fueling
6 Nuclear Submarines - 30pts
2 Mechanized Divisions - 10pts
100 IRBM - 10pts
Free Milk for everyone - 44pts
62.75pts left for later use.

Did you end up finishing the H-bomb research?

China's build for 1951...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 119 industry + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 192 points total.

*NOTE* China Converts to Government Cuts Mode.

Cuts Mode: 119 points + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 192 points total.

Other Income: 4 points from Egypt for purchase of 100 Dassault III planes.

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

7 points = military
97 points = Level II social services

104 points = total expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

21 points to construct 7 Artillery Corps (at 3 points per corps).

Domestic Expeditures:

Finish Rural Electrification (49 points, Year 2 of 2)

24 points spent on Nuclear Infrastructure (Year 2 of 3. 24 points left as the 24 points this year is drawn from the 72 points from 1950)

Other Expeditures:

12 points to Asian Space Agency
10 points to Colombia (10 / 80. Remaining debt: 70 points)

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
24 factories from natural growth.

10% extra growth from completion of Rural Electrification.
44 factories gained from Rural Electrification.

--------------------------------

Start of 1952 economy:

187 industry
50 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points and 10 airline points)
3 oil points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Sharina, nations have been able to go to Total War after two years at since GB and Vas worked out the differences between Market and Command Economies. TLS just needs to keep in mind the negative after-effects this will have on his economy (recessions and such).

Sharina, nations have been able to go to Total War after two years at since GB and Vas worked out the differences between Market and Command Economies. TLS just needs to keep in mind the negative after-effects this will have on his economy (recessions and such).

Thanks for clearing that up. I was just confused because I thought I remembered nations waiting 3 years to go to Total War.

2 years is fine by me as long as the negative effects are taken into account.

OOC: What exactly does Rural Electrification do? Is it just adding 10% of your points, basically building you 10% more factories, or does it do something else?

US Foreign Military and Economic Aid 1951
4 F101B Voodoo interceptors (12 points)(1 each for Morocco, Philippines, Oman, Algeria)

Foreign Aid
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Morocco (10 million people) 3 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Liberia (1 million people), 1 point ( year 1 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Mexico (32 million people), 9 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Central America, Iceland, Virgin Islands, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, (20 million people) 6 points (year 1 of 3)
Rural Electrification and transportation improvements for Oman, Western Arabia, Kurdistan, Turkey, Central Asia, Jordan (32 million people) 10 points (year 1 of 3)
2 production centers for Central Asia 48 points
World Bank 2.75 points
78.25 points


a reminder for the economic moderator

Special US spending 1951

Nuclear powerplants (to provide 5 energy points long term to supplement oil points) 125 points

(still pondering a way to easily simulate energy usuage in a way to simulate supply and demand needs.. although so we aren't at a crisis situation yet. Energy costs should start spiralling upward in the early 1960s though, as the world is far more industralized at this point then it was historically)

also a reminder

Parthini']OOC: What exactly does Rural Electrification do? Is it just adding 10% of your points, basically building you 10% more factories, or does it do something else?

permanent increase in production centers

Special US spending 1951

Nuclear powerplants (to provide 5 energy points long term to supplement oil points) 125 points

(still pondering a way to easily simulate energy usuage in a way to simulate supply and demand needs.. although so we aren't at a crisis situation yet. Energy costs should start spiralling upward in the early 1960s though, as the world is far more industralized at this point then it was historically)

Does that mean that by spending 25 points you create 1 nuclear energy point which is equivalent to having 1 oil point, basically giving you another point? Cuz I kinda like that idea.

Parthini']Does that mean that by spending 25 points you create 1 nuclear energy point which is equivalent to having 1 oil point, basically giving you another point? Cuz I kinda like that idea.

I am kind of thinking that way, although some issues still need to be worked out

Sharina, nations have been able to go to Total War after two years at since GB and Vas worked out the differences between Market and Command Economies. TLS just needs to keep in mind the negative after-effects this will have on his economy (recessions and such).

I weighed the balances, and I have to say, if I end this war by the end of this year, at the expensive of -1% growth for the year after (normally -2%, but I get that extra +1% from the SCT), it is worth it to get all these people out of my country. After all, with all this fighting, alot of production centers are kinda getting destroyed. A prolonged conflict will only worsen it.

*UPDATED*

United Islamic Republic:

Spending Type: Market Economy Wartime, Growth 1% : 4 Commerce(4 merchant marine) + 10 Production(total production centers:5) + 3 oil + 0 tourism(As LT said, nobody is THAT stupid)+14 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 51 points

Population = 24 million

Maintenance:
x2 Mechanized 1
x5 Mujahideen (AKA Light Infantry) 1.25
x2 Garrison .5
X1 Armored Division .5
Total Spent: 3.25

Total Remaining: 47.75 points

Social Services:
Level 2 Social Services for everyone (5 points)

Total Spent: 8.25

Total Remaining: 42.75 points

Training:
x5 mujahideen divisions 5 points
X2 Infantry Corps 10 points
X2 Mech. Artillery group 10 points
X2 Mech. Inf. Div. 8 points

Total Spent: 41.25

Total Remaining: 1.5

Aid to other nations:
Saudi Arabia 1.5 points

Total Spent: 31

Total Remaining: 0

Updated, with the kownledge of wartime economy ;)

I chose for wartimeecpnomy because the effects (if I survive) after the war are pretty severe.

Did you end up finishing the H-bomb research?

Sure did. I think we finish ICBM and Nuclear Fueling this year... then what?

a suggestion...

player nations start handling the builds, economies and population growth of some of their NPC allies and other NPC nations

example:
US handles builds for Canada, Mexico, Central America, Liberia, independent Caribbean nations, Morocco, Iceland and Philippines

UK handles builds for British Africa, Malaysia, Burma, British Caribbean nations (as those nations gain independence) plus Kuwait and Yemen (eventually) plus Ethopia

South Africa handles Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Italy (as they currently lack a player or the players aren't terribly active)

Scandic Union handles builds for Turkey, Central Asia, Azerbajain, Oman, Western Arabia, Kashgaria

USAE handles builds for Basra, Baghdad, as well as Netherlands and Belgium

the economic mods load would be lightened, and he can concentrate on ensuring accuracy

UK handles builds for British Africa, Malaysia, Burma, British Caribbean nations (as those nations gain independence) plus Kuwait and Yemen (eventually) plus Ethopia

Sure, i'll post a few of them. Though the spread of the war in Asia is taking a lot of my time at the moment.

But first, a question:
Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 point per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 points per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 points for every 1 million people.
If I am tech level 7 then I can only have 16 production centers at 2 points each gives me 32 points for a population of 16 million. Correct?

Population:
16 million Australasian (30 million Indonesian)

Market Economy Peacetime:
(No growth from last year as population cap has been reached
Production Centers:
Sydney 3; Melbourne 3; Adelaide 2; Canberra 1; Brisbane 2; Auckland 2; Perth 2; Wellington 1 = 32
Oil Points:
4 From Indonesia = 4
Colonial:
Indonesia 6 (two industrial center makes 10); New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 14
Commerce:
18 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 31
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)

Budget for 1950: 32+4+14+31+1.5= 82.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
Level 4 Social Services to Indonesia = 12 points
23.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
2 Cruisers--1 point
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
6 Pilots at Expert Level--1.5 point
1 Pilot at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions--1 point
2 Garrison Units at Average level--1 point
2 Light Marine Brigades (hightly trained)--1 point
1 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--0.5 points
Airforce (4 jet fighters, 1 light bomber, 1 fighter-bomber, 1 transport)--2.75 points
14.25 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upgrade 2 Cruisers to Missile Cruisers--4 points (both cruisers are under construction and will be ready in 1953)
12 Points to begin Research of Short Range (V2) type missles
16 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
12 Points to finish Industrial Center in Indonesia
15 Points to build 5 Merchant Marines (two for Indonesia)
27 Points Spent

23.5 + 14.25 + 16 + 27 = 80.75 Points Spent
1.75 points to world bank

I have a question

When you go into cut spending I understand that u get 5% growth. However, does cut spending only cut your factory prodution in half or your total economy in half.

I have a question

When you go into cut spending I understand that u get 5% growth. However, does cut spending only cut your factory prodution in half or your total economy in half.

Each "factory" gives the following points per mode...

Government Cuts mode = 1 point each factory
Peacetime / Normal mode = 2 points each factory
National Effort mode = 3 points each factory
Wartime mode = 6 points each factory
Total War = 12 points each factory (I believe)

Each "factory" gives the following points per mode...

Government Cuts mode = 1 point each factory
Peacetime / Normal mode = 2 points each factory
National Effort mode = 3 points each factory
Wartime mode = 6 points each factory
Total War = 12 points each factory (I believe)

ahhh ok thx a lot.

also what is the growth % for all of those apart from Goverment Cut.

and 1 more thing dealing with growth. If your population in millions * your growth = 100 then u get 1 factory?

For example, Brazil in cut spending has 5% growth and its population is 50+ million. Would I take 5% growth and make it just 5 and times 50 for population. 5*50=250. would that mean i would get 2 factories and the next year if i remained in cut spending get 3 because the 50 carries over.

Another one is rural electrification. Does the 10% bonus multiply your overall income (factories, tourists, commerce) I was told that is did something else

Hope thats somewhat right, sorry for all the questions im new but im really interested. Thx again.

Updated, with the kownledge of wartime economy ;)

I chose for wartimeecpnomy because the effects (if I survive) after the war are pretty severe.

If you survive :)

But first, a question:

If I am tech level 7 then I can only have 16 production centers at 2 points each gives me 32 points for a population of 16 million. Correct?

No, at tech level 7 you can have 32 factories, giving you 64 points from industry. Tech level 6 and below is 1 factory per million people. Now it is 2 factories per million people.

Syria 1951 Budget
Income:29 (6 Prod, 2 air, 12 shipping, 6 germany, 3 RE)
Constant Spending (4.25)
Level 5 Social Services: 2
Maintenance: 2.25 (about to skyrocket)
Available Spending (24)
500xV-1 Rockets: 1
500xV-2 Rockets: 1
Shipping Unit: 3
3xLight Infantry Division: 3
Improved Infrastructure for Palestine+Jordan: .25
Mechanized Infantry Division: 4
Intelligence Agency-10

(numbers may not add up to 0 due to rounding, any remnants can go to World Bank)
Edited, different bits are in blue, 2 points left to spend

a suggestion...

player nations start handling the builds, economies and population growth of some of their NPC allies and other NPC nations

example:
US handles builds for Canada, Mexico, Central America, Liberia, independent Caribbean nations, Morocco, Iceland and Philippines

UK handles builds for British Africa, Malaysia, Burma, British Caribbean nations (as those nations gain independence) plus Kuwait and Yemen (eventually) plus Ethopia

South Africa handles Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Italy (as they currently lack a player or the players aren't terribly active)

Scandic Union handles builds for Turkey, Central Asia, Azerbajain, Oman, Western Arabia, Kashgaria

USAE handles builds for Basra, Baghdad, as well as Netherlands and Belgium

the economic mods load would be lightened, and he can concentrate on ensuring accuracy

We starting this this year or next?

Sure did. I think we finish ICBM and Nuclear Fueling this year... then what?

Nuclear Refueling will be next year along with Phosgene gas, but after that I dunno I gotta check whats up next.

We starting this this year or next?

up to referees..either works assuming its ok

Parthini']No, at tech level 7 you can have 32 factories, giving you 64 points from industry. Tech level 6 and below is 1 factory per million people. Now it is 2 factories per million people.

Then somebody should probably change the words in this quote at the beginning of the thread to avoid confusion (italics are mine)

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 point per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 points per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 points for every 1 million people.

Population:
16 million Australasian (30 million Indonesian)

Market Economy Peacetime:
Production Centers:
Sydney 4; Melbourne 4; Adelaide 2; Canberra 2; Brisbane 3; Auckland 2; Perth 2; Wellington 1 = 40
Oil Points:
4 From Indonesia = 4
Colonial:
Indonesia 6 (two industrial center makes 10); New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 14
Commerce:
18 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 31
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)

Budget for 1950: 40+4+14+31+1.5= 90.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
Level 4 Social Services to Indonesia = 12 points
23.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
2 Cruisers--1 point
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
6 Pilots at Expert Level--1.5 point
1 Pilot at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions--1 point
2 Garrison Units at Average level--1 point
2 Light Marine Brigades (hightly trained)--1 point
1 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--0.5 points
Airforce (4 jet fighters, 1 light bomber, 1 fighter-bomber, 1 transport)--2.75 points
14.25 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upgrade 2 Cruisers to Missile Cruisers--4 points (both cruisers are under construction and will be ready in 1953)
12 Points to begin Research of Short Range (V2) type missiles
6 Points for 2 F101 Voodoo Fighters
3 Points for F105 Light Bomber
25 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
12 Points to finish Industrial Center in Indonesia
15 Points to build 5 Merchant Marines (two for Indonesia)
27 Points Spent

23.5 + 14.25 + 25 + 27 = 89.75 Points Spent
0.75 points to world bank

Brazil's 1950 Build:

Population: 51 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 3, Recife 1, Rio de Janeiro 1+1 from growth, Santos +1 from growth = 14 points
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 1 national = 4 points
Shipping: 6 shipping units = 9 points

Total Production:
14 industry + 4 airline + 9 shipping= 27 points

Maintenance:

Level III social Spending-15 points

Military:

4 Garrison-2 points
1 light ship-.25
2 regular pilots-free
2 infantry divison-.5
"Administrative Spending" - .25

Builds:
Air Terminal (Rio de Janeiro) Year 2 of 2-2 points
Shipping Unit -3 points
Cruise Terminal – 4 point

Brazil's 1951 Build:

Population: 51 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 3, Recife 1, Rio de Janeiro 2, Santos 1 = 14 points
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 1 national = 4 points
Shipping: 7 shipping units = 10 points
Tourism: 1 Air Terminal (Rio de Janeiro), 1 Cruise Terminal (Belem) = 2 point

Foreign Aid:
FNS - 10 points

3% Growth = 1 production center
Salvador 1

Total Production:
14 industry+4 airline+10 shipping+2 tourism+10 Foreign Aid=40 points

Maintenance:

Level III Social Spending - 15 points

Military:

4 Highly Trained Garrisons - 2 points
2 Regular Pilots - Free
2 Highly Trained Infantry Division - 1

40 - 18 = 22 points left

Builds:
6 Shipping Units – 18 points
1 Air Terminal (Sao Paulo) - 4 points

First: I like the idea of players handling NPC builds in order to lessen Parthini's workload, and I suggest we begin with that in 1952. I don't see any problems with the suggestions provided by Galveston Bay, built Parthini should have he final say since NPCs are his area.

Second: I will edit the main post to fix the whole x points per y million people thing.

Third: I am away from home at the moment, so my posting will be somewhat sporadic this week. Any urgent economic questions should be directed either to New Dornalia or another mod, as I may not see them for a couple of days.

Improved British Builds 1951 (to reflect the investment in nuclear power)

(Important bits are italicised). Standard market economy, 3% growth (plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth)

Production Centres: 89 as follows: 15 London, 12 Birmingham, 6 Coventry, 6 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds,

INCOME
Production Centres: 178 points
Colonial Support: 18 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign))
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 7 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; Nigeria airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German government for ESA manned launches: 2 points
From French government for ESA manned launches: 2 points

TOTAL: 272

growth yields 10 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 56
level 4 social services for UK (51m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (100m): 50
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance)
12 points for tactical nuclear weapons research (year 2 of 5)
24 points to finish ICBM missile program (48/48 complete)
5 points for manned mission costs (third sub-orbital mission)

Extraordinary Expenditure:
9 points for three EE Lightning 3rd generation jets
6 points for three pilots
24 points for Nuclear fuelling technology (year 2 of 2)
9 batches of VX gas (9@ 1 point ea) = 9 points
1 heavy carrier battlegroup (jet capable)= 15 points
1 nuclear power station @ 25 points.

Total: 272

If you survive :)

Probably I won't survive :D

Hey I have another question. Im gonna have 1.5 points left over for my Brazilian 1952 build. Does that carry over to the next year or does it just go a way?

Hey I have another question. Im gonna have 1.5 points left over for my Brazilian 1952 build. Does that carry over to the next year or does it just go a way?

They won't carry over UNLESS you put them into some project or unit building. For example, if you put 1.5 points towards a new factory, you will only need 22.5 points to finish it in 1952. Or if you want to train a pilot, you spend the 1.5 points on it now in 1951, then only need 0.5 points to finish it in 1952.

Hope that helps.

Probably I won't survive :D

Well, actually, if the Islamists can create an effective resistance in the rural areas, can heavily fortify their cities, and promote their cause, the UIR might continue in some form after the civil war (after all, once my special plan comes into effect, then you might get enough support to try and get independence.)

The only country I could do for economy would probably be Tibet, since I've given it like 50 points over the years, so it's the closest thing I have to an "ally" (except for the commonwealth and SCT, but they are all taken by other people).

A question I've always been a bit unsure on. If something is in the 1951 budget, when does it become available? If it is a unit with say a 12 month training time, would that be Dec 1951 or Dec 1952? June 1952?

1951 - FNS

46 Million Population

145 base (5 points of growth) (145 potential) + 100 points from International Trade = 245

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 50.25
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

150.75pts for Discretionary Spending
10 Nuclear Submarines - 50pts
2 Mechanized Divisions - 10pts
100 IRBM - 10pts
Free Milk for everyone - 44pts
1 Nuclear Powerplant - 25pts
10 points to Brazil
1.75 points to World Bank

Updated to reflect further Nuclear Knowledge, Aid to Brazil, Payment to World Bank, and a few more Nuclear Subs.

Parthini']German Build 1951
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 83, 2 oil points, 7 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 30 shipping units (3 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 2 Bremen, 7 Hamburg, 2 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 2 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 5 Munich, 1 Salzburg, 3 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 3 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 166 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+7 tourist+3 Foreign Shipping= 226 points

Maintainance (55):
20 Elite Garrisons-10
17 Elite Pilots-8.5
4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
8 Elite Mechanized Inf-8
1 Highly Trained Alpine-.5
4 Mech Flak-2
5 Mech Artillery-2

2 HQ-2

2 Arado Ar 232-.5 points
4 TA183D-2 points
9 TA200-4.5 points
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (40):
Level 4 for 80 Million-40 points

Civilian Builds (61):

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-2 points

Kaiser Wilhelm Nuclear Power Plant-25 points
Nuclear Fueling-6 points

Air Terminal (Leipzig)-4 points

4% Growth: 9 Industry Centers

6 points to Egypt
6 points to Syria

10 points to *Arab Assistance Program*
-2 Infantry Corps

Military Builds (68):

2 Transport Groups-10 points

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-6 points
1 Frigate Flotilla-5 points
20 Corvettes (1 group)-5 points

12 Garrisons-36 points

3 Elite Pilots-6/12 points (year 1 of 2)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1951
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 91, 2 oil points, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 3 Bremen, 9 Hamburg, 3 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 3 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 6 Munich, 2 Salzburg, 4 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 182 Industry+2 oil+8 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=240 points

After some deliberation, the Imperial Budget is changed to begin construction of the first Nuclear Power Plant on the European Continent. Funding for 3 bombers and 2 cruisers is delayed a year.

A question I've always been a bit unsure on. If something is in the 1951 budget, when does it become available? If it is a unit with say a 12 month training time, would that be Dec 1951 or Dec 1952? June 1952?

For simplicty's sake, all uniots take about 12 months to train in peace-time except for construction of naval vessels. The new units always become available in Jan. of every new year.

When a nation engages in a war, then the production will be much more specific time-wise, like 2 turns or 3 turns or whatever, as a turn in war is roughly 2 months.

They won't carry over UNLESS you put them into some project or unit building. For example, if you put 1.5 points towards a new factory, you will only need 22.5 points to finish it in 1952. Or if you want to train a pilot, you spend the 1.5 points on it now in 1951, then only need 0.5 points to finish it in 1952.

Hope that helps.

helps a lot thx. im gonna do that pilot thing... free mantinence

player nations start handling the builds, economies and population growth of some of their NPC allies and other NPC nations

example:
US handles builds for Canada, Mexico, Central America, Liberia, independent Caribbean nations, Morocco, Iceland and Philippines

UK handles builds for British Africa, Malaysia, Burma, British Caribbean nations (as those nations gain independence) plus Kuwait and Yemen (eventually) plus Ethopia

South Africa handles Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Italy (as they currently lack a player or the players aren't terribly active)

Scandic Union handles builds for Turkey, Central Asia, Azerbajain, Oman, Western Arabia, Kashgaria

USAE handles builds for Basra, Baghdad, as well as Netherlands and Belgium

This system will go into effect for the 1952 builds. I'm assuming that the player nations listed will be handling the builds of the NPCs they are associated with, unless anybody has a problem with it, in which case the NPCs can be reassigned or another player volunteers.

I'm going to post rules for economic sanctions (using Ato-Sara's proposed system, because it's simple), although there is still the problem of figuring out who is trading with who. I propose getting on Chatzy and lsiting the nations you want to trade with, or using TGs to check with those nations, and if there's no conflict (i.e. South Africa says it has commercial ties to Korea, but Korea doesn't list South Africa as a trading partner), you will list those countries in your 1952 build as "Trade Partners" or some such, and devote a portion of your commerce points to each.

OOC: I'll incorporate this into my '52 build which I will do later today actually...

IC:

German Trading Partners:
32 shipping units
Great Britian-5
France-1
SU-1
South Africa-3
United States-3
China-5
Australasia-1
FNS-2
Brazil-2
Syria-2
Egypt-2
Saudi Arabia-3

Parthini']OOC: I'll incorporate this into my '52 build which I will do later today actually...

IC:

German Trading Partners:
32 shipping units
Great Britian-6
France-1
South Africa-3
United States-3
China-5
Australasia-1
FNS-2
Brazil-2
Syria-3
Egypt-3
Saudi Arabia-3

OOC: Preliminary Korean Trade Partner List.

12 Shipping Units

USEA-3
China-3
Japan-2
FAS-2
Philippines-2

My trade is tiny.....

USEA trading Partners :
(24 shipping units [12,000,000 tons])


Korea- 5 [2,500,000 tons]

China- 5 [2,500,000 tons]

FAS- 5 [2,500,000 tons]

Japan- 5 [2,500,000 tons]

The Phillipines- 4 [2,000,000 tons]


Also I've been thinking, maybe there should be a cap of how many shipping units you can direct at each nation, say around 4 or 5.
This would help stop people unrealistically directing all their units to one nation.
Tech level could also be tied in, for instance a Tech Level 1-6 nation can only have 3 units directed at it, Tech Level 7 can have 4, Tech Level 8 could receive 6 and so on.

Parthini']OOC: I'll incorporate this into my '52 build which I will do later today actually...

IC:

German Trading Partners:
32 shipping units
Great Britian-6
France-1
South Africa-3
United States-3
China-5
Australasia-1
FNS-2
Brazil-2
Syria-3
Egypt-3
Saudi Arabia-3


What about me? As cold as our relations are, we still got a lot of trade going between us.

Perhaps we could set a max. based on population. It would 4-5 units may be a lot for a country my size, but when you talk about the US, that's different.

United States - 18
Scandic Union - 16
China - 14
Germany - 11
South Africa - 8
Central America - 7 (Including Cuba, Dominican, Haiti, etc)
Brazil - 5
Japan - 3
Australia - 3
Canada - 2
Spain - 2
FAS - 2
USEA - 2
Syria - 1
Portugal - 1
Dispersed - 1

Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Western Africa, Korea, Russia, France, and Egypt receive trade but not enough to be counted above, so they are under dispersed. Its like.. one container ship thats quite small for each location.

Parthini and Artitsa, I see a problem with your shipping. Need some clarifications.

1) Artitsa, you have almost 100 shipping units. Am I correct in assuming that much of that was Argentinian or whatever, and came under your control when you merged with them?

2) According to the rules on the front page, no more that 30 points can come from commerce at tech level 6 (each shipping unit worth 1 point), and no more than 40 at level 7 (each unit worth 1.5 points). Parthini, your 32 shipping units would give you 48 points, but since you can only have 40, those extra eight points won't count towards your total. You don't have to get rid of the superfluous units, but they aren't doing you any good.

South African Trading Partners:
27 Shipping Units
Great Britain-6 units [1,500,000 tons]
United States-5 units [1,250,000 tons]
Germany-5 units [1,250,000 tons]
Australia-3 units [1,000,000 tons]
FNS-3 units [750,000 tons]
Federated Asian States-2 units [500,000 tons]
Portugal-2 units [500,000 tons]
Dispersed-1 unit [250,000 tons]

I don't think a cap on how much trade you can send to one nation is realistic. Some nations are simply going to be more dependent on one nation than they are on another.

South African Trading Partners:
27 Shipping Units
Great Britain-6 units [1,500,000 tons]
United States-5 units [1,250,000 tons]
Germany-5 units [1,250,000 tons]
Australia-3 units [1,000,000 tons]
FNS-3 units [750,000 tons]
Federated Asian States-3 units [750,000 tons]
Portugal-2 units [500,000 tons]

You'll trade with people halfway across the world but not your fellow Africans? Are you planning something that could cause sanctions? :(

You'll trade with people halfway across the world but not your fellow Africans? Are you planning something that could cause sanctions? :(

Not at the moment. It's just that South Africa has had diplomatic relations with the nations listed for longer than Egypt has been an independent country, and thus has established trade relationships with them.

Just for simplicity, I think trade should be assumed with all nations, but only those listed as "Trading Partners" in the yearly builds will have enough influence to actually harm a country's economy through sanctions.

18 shipping units:

4- USA
4- Britain
2- South Africa
2- FAS
2- China
1- USEA
1- Korea
2- Dispersed-Many other nations receive fractions, including much of industrial Europe and Gran Colombia

Just for simplicity, I think trade should be assumed with all nations, but only those listed as "Trading Partners" in the yearly builds will have enough influence to actually harm a country's economy through sanctions.

This sounds like a really good idea. Perhaps at least one unit should always be set to "dispersed" or "mixed"?

Egypt’s Trading Partners (1952)

28.5 Points
Germany: 3
Ethiopia: 3
US: 3
UK: 2
China: 2
Syria: 2
Jordan: 2
Algeria: 2
Baghdad: 1
Morocco: 1
Palestine: 1
Liberia: 1
Italy: 1 (Libya)
Western Arabia: 1
Nigeria: 1
South Africa: 1
Dispersed: 1.5 (Mainly among African/Arab nations)

I agree with Cylea that atleast 1 point should always go to dispersed since trade will continue even if all your trading partners sanction you. I think a cap (3 or 4) should be put on it, though, or else everyone would just put all their trade points there.

I have a couple of questions.

1. I have 40 commerce points so all I have to do is post where the 40 points go to? Right now China has a few allies for trade...

SCT treaty
Colombia
Germany
Egypt
Syria
South Africa

So do I just post an amount of points to each of these nations?

2. If war erupts and I get embargoed by one or more allies, can I re-direct my trade to other nations and still get the full 40 points of commerce?

Yes Cylea, having a dedicated point of "dispersed trading" is a good idea. I think a reasonable cap on dispersed units would be three units.

I have a couple of questions.

1. I have 40 commerce points so all I have to do is post where the 40 points go to? Right now China has a few allies for trade...

SCT treaty
Colombia
Germany
Egypt
Syria
South Africa

So do I just post an amount of points to each of these nations?

2. If war erupts and I get embargoed by one or more allies, can I re-direct my trade to other nations and still get the full 40 points of commerce?

1. You direct shipping units, not points, but yeah. For example, you could send 6 units to the SCT treaty (more likely to members thereof), and 2 to South Africa, or whatever you like. The numbers beside the countries on these lists aren't the points derived from trade, but rather the shipping units devoted to trade with that nation.

2. Yes, you can redirect trade, but keep in mind if a major world power embargos you, other nations may be lessing willing to trade with you, or at least openly trade.

We should also address UN-mandated sanctions. Somethin along the lines of "if sanctioned by the UN, countries lose all commerce points." That may seem a little extreme, but it's pretty much what happened to South Africa during the 1970s-80s in RL.

General opinion on UN sanctions?

I have a couple of questions.

1. I have 40 commerce points so all I have to do is post where the 40 points go to? Right now China has a few allies for trade...

SCT treaty
Colombia
Germany
Egypt
Syria
South Africa

So do I just post an amount of points to each of these nations?

2. If war erupts and I get embargoed by one or more allies, can I re-direct my trade to other nations and still get the full 40 points of commerce?

I'm sure there is some trade going on with Australia too--fairly decent sized market close by and all.

Yes Cylea, having a dedicated point of "dispersed trading" is a good idea. I think a reasonable cap on dispersed units would be three units.



1. You direct shipping units, not points, but yeah. For example, you could send 6 units to the SCT treaty (more likely to members thereof), and 2 to South Africa, or whatever you like. The numbers beside the countries on these lists aren't the points derived from trade, but rather the shipping units devoted to trade with that nation.

2. Yes, you can redirect trade, but keep in mind if a major world power embargos you, other nations may be lessing willing to trade with you, or at least openly trade.

We should also address UN-mandated sanctions. Somethin along the lines of "if sanctioned by the UN, countries lose all commerce points." That may seem a little extreme, but it's pretty much what happened to South Africa during the 1970s-80s in RL.

General opinion on UN sanctions?

Should the UN actually manage to get a sanction together this seems like a reasonable result. If a major nation ever withdraws from the UN though there would obviously have to be major exceptions.

We do realize though that we have just added another 10% to the workload of anybody doing NPC builds, especially if that NPC reacts to a sanction (like if britain and US embargo somebody Canada and the Commonwealth likely would too)?

Obviously, though I doubt we'll see many really important nations withdrawing from the UN, for a while at least.

Oh yeah, I realize it. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I imagine it'd be up to Parth as NPC mod guy as to whether NPCs follow the sanctions, but those that are economically powerful enough to actually threaten someone with sanctions will probably go along with the major powers anyway.

China's trade (Probably be permanent until status with the repicient nations changes)

40 commerce points.

Trading Partners:

Germany: 5 points
Colombia: 5 points
Korea: 5 points
USEA: 5 points
Australia: 5 points
South Africa: 5 points
Egypt: 3 points
Syria: 2 points
Dipersed Trading: 5 points

Total: 40 points.

Parthini and Artitsa, I see a problem with your shipping. Need some clarifications.

1) Artitsa, you have almost 100 shipping units. Am I correct in assuming that much of that was Argentinian or whatever, and came under your control when you merged with them?


That would be correct. We both had maxed out trade.

That would be correct. We both had maxed out trade.

Hmm...Looks like we've got ourselves an absurdly powerful South American economic bloc there.

;)
Who me? I can't spend all this money on military... I'll be putting a lot of it into foreign aid.

Seems like people are directing their points rather than their actual units. I think I will do the same...

Oh, and I have 32 units because I had 30 from before and then I bought 2 transport units which I think counted as 250,000 tons each.

Lastly, I think if your units have to be diverted b/c of a war, you should have to wait a year so sanctions won't be useless.

So, here goes round two...

Points: 40

Britain-7
France-1
SU-3
China-6
US-3
South Africa-3
Australasia-2
FNS-3
Brazil-2
Egypt-3
Syria-3
Saudi Arabia-3
Others-1

Parthini, you were right the first time. Shipping units are directed, not points. Though if people want to do it that way, I don't see why not...but we do need a standard system, instead of some people doing one thing and others doing another thing. What do you guys think? Should we allocate points or units?

Parthini, you were right the first time. Shipping units are directed, not points. Though if people want to do it that way, I don't see why not...but we do need a standard system, instead of some people doing one thing and others doing another thing. What do you guys think? Should we allocate points or units?

IMHO, both are the same thing.

You have your trade income based on how many commercial shipping *YOU* built for your nation. The trade towards other nations are only representative of where your trade ships GO and COME from. The other nations don't get points from YOUR commerce- YOU do.

So basically, we should consider "points" and "units" the same thing as far as shipping and trade is concerned. Its like some peope say "Howdy" instead of "Hey" or "Hi" or whatever.

Makes it easier to post points. If someone cuts trade with someone else, we'll know how much that costs him faster.

I see your point, Sharina. For simplicity's sake, let's just divide up the points, like you, Parth, and Koryan have done.

South African Trading Partners:
40 commerce points
Great Britain-9
United States-7
Germany-6
Australia-6
FNS-4
Federated Asian States-4
Portugal-2
Dispersed-2

I will change the rules in the first post to reflect this.

OOC: A bit late, I know. Also a weird thing happend as I cannot find my 1950 build so I cannot figure out what I built in my millitary, so here are both.

1950

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available:44 -limit reach-

Commerce:
1 national airline, 1 international airline, 21 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.

Industrial Centres:
Paris 6, Nantes 5, Lille 6, Marseilles 5, Toulouse 5, Rouen 6, Vichy 5, Lyon 6

Tech Level: 7

Income:
Production Centeres: 44*2 = 88 points

Commerce:Total= 35.5
Shipping= 31.5 points
National Airline= 2 points
International Airline= 2 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Rural electrification 10%= 13 points

Loan Repayment:
Portugal=1 point
Northwest Africa= 1 point

Total= 138.5 Points

Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 3.75 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points

ESA Research= 2 points

Millitary Spending:
3 Patrol / Escort group (60 corvettes)= 15 points
Upgrading armored Division and constructing a new AMX-30 div.= 10 points
2 Dassault Mystere IV fighters= 4 points
2 Handley Page Hastings from UK= 6 points
4 pilots Elite training= 16 points (Year 1 of 2)
2 Parachute brigade= 4 points

Total= 55 points

Ocean Liner= 10 points

Forign Investment in Northwest Africa:
Improvement of Infrastructure= 2 points (Year 3 out of 3)

Aid to the Balkans= 20 points

To World Bank= 0.75 points
--------------------------------------------------------

1951

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available:44 -limit reach-

Commerce:
1 national airline, 1 international airline, 21 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.

Industrial Centres:
Paris 6, Nantes 5, Lille 6, Marseilles 5, Toulouse 5, Rouen 6, Vichy 5, Lyon 6

Tech Level: 7

Income:
Production Centeres: 44*2 = 88 points

Commerce:Total= 37 points
Shipping= 31.5 points
Ocean Liner=1.5 points
National Airline= 2 points
International Airline= 2 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Rural electrification 10%= 13 points

Loan Repayment:
Portugal=1 point

Total= 143 Points

Expenditure:

Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 7.25 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Improve intelligence equipment= 2.75 points

ESA Research= 4 points

Millitary Purchases:
2 Dassault Mirage III fighters= 4 points

Forign Investment in Northwest Africa:
Rural Electrification and Infrastructure= 2 points for 3 years (infrastructure to hit level 6 so electrification can begin) (year 1/3)

Investment in the Balkan:
Industrial centre in Belgrade: 24 points
Industrial Centre in Tirana: 24 Points
Industrial Centre in Ljubljana: 24 points
Total= 72 points

Revised with points instead of units being listed.

USEA trading Partners :
(36 points worth of shipping units)

Korea- 5
China- 5
FAS- 5
Japan- 5
The Phillipines- 5
Burma-5
Dispersed- 4
Australia- 3

27 Economic Points

5- USA
6- Britain
3- South Africa
3- FAS
3- China
2- USEA
2- Korea
1- Germany
1- Gran Colombia
1- Dispersed-Many other nations receive fractions, including much of industrialised Europe

British trade (40 points from 32 shipping units, 10 from airlines)

Commonwealth: 23 points
Canada - 5 points
Australia and New Zealand - 5 points
South Africa - 4 points
Federated Asian States - 4 points
Burma - 2 points
Oman -2 points
Kuwait - 1 point

European Economic Community: 12 points
France - 4 points
Germany - 5 points
Low Countries (Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg etc.) - 3 points

Rest of World: 15 points
USA - 6 points
USEA - 1 points
Korea - 1 points
China - 2 points
Gran Colombia - 2 point
Rest of World - 4 points

I will do American trade, and the NPC countries I have to keep track of, this weekend

South African Budget 1952
Population: 28,189,000
Income: 128
Production: 78 (26 production centers/56 maximum)
Commerce: 40 (27 shipping units)
Airline: 4
Tourism: 6
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/National Effort=1%, +1% from Commonwealth)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep- 12.75 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-8 points
Continuing Research Grants-6 points

Government Projects
1x Militia Unit (State Police)-1 point
1x National Airline-5 points
2x International Airline-12 points
2x Production Centers-48 points
1x Dassault Mirage III Unit-3 points to China
Advanced Ecological Research-24 point
B52 Stratofortress Unit-3 points to US (next three in 1953)

Foreign Aid
N/A

Surplus
.25 points

Projected 1953 Income: 90 (28 production centers + 2 growth) + 40 commerce + 10 airline + 6 tourism = 146 total points

Ukrainian Budget 1952
Population: 37 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Cut Spending): Stalino 5, Dneipopetrovsk 5, Kiev 5, Odessa 5, Kharkov 5, 6 shipping units, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 3 shipping units=38 points
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Mainentance: 8 points (4 infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 armored divisions, 4 MiG 19, 4 expert pilot, 10 destroyers, 40 corvettes).
Spending: 4 shipping units-12 points, 1x Armored Division-5 points, 2 points to UN pool

Polish Budget 1952
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
Production centers: Warsaw 5, Lodz 5, Krakow 5, Katowice 5, Brest-Litovsk 5, Lvov 5, Riga 5 plus 5 shipping points, 1 national airline=77 points
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 10.25 points (2 armored corps, 8 infantry corps, 8 flak units, 3 Mig 15 jet fighter units, 3 C47 transport units, 8 pilots).
Spending: 2x production center-48 points, 1 shipping units-3 points, 2.25 points to UN pool.

Italian Budget 1952
(includes Libya, Tunisia, Eritrea, Italian Somalia, Corsica)
Population: 56 million
Tech level 7
Production centers: Milan 4, Rome 3, Genoa 3, Turin 2, Venice 1, Naples 1, plus 20 shipping units, national airline, international airline, Libya 5 oil points, Tunisia 2 resource points, Sardinia / Corsica 2 points, Eritrea 1 point
Total Income: 72 points
Level 3 social spending: 15 points
Military maintenance: 27.5 points (2 mountain brigades, 8 garrisons, 3 mechanized divisions, 4 flak divisions, 2 armored divisions, 1 HQ, 3 F80, 3 Super Sabre, 5 average pilots, 1 Vampire III, 1 expert pilot, 1 heavy carrier, 6 heavy missile cruisers, 4 light cruisers, 6 destroyer squadrons)
Spending: 6x TA200 (to replace older fighters)-12 points, 2x SM95-4 points, 3x Jet-Capable Airports-12 points, 1.5 points to UN pool.

French Trade:

33 shipping points:

Major Trading Partners:
UK:4
Germany:2
USA:4
China:4
FAS:3
Gran Columbia:3
Japan:2

Minor Trading Partners:
Belgium:2
The Netherlands:2
Yugoslavia:1
Slovenia:1
Albania & Kosovo:1
Northwest Africa:1

Diversified Trade:3

Syrian Trade:
12 units (6,000,000 tons)

Egypt:1
Western Arabia: 1
Germany: 2
Brazil: 1
FAS: 2
China: 2
General: 3

German Build 1952
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 91, 2 oil points, 1 nuclear power, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 3 Bremen, 9 Hamburg, 3 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 3 Nuremburg, 4 Frankfurt, 1 Mainz, 2 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden,1 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 6 Munich, 2 Salzburg, 4 Vienna, 1 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 1 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 182 Industry+2 oil+1 Nuke Power+8 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=241 points

Maintainance (74.5):
32 Elite Garrisons-24
17 Elite Pilots-8.5
4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
8 Elite Mechanized Inf-8
1 Highly Trained Alpine-.5
4 Elite Mech Flak-4
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

2 HQ-2

2 Arado Ar 232-.5 points
4 TA183D-2 points
9 TA200-4.5 points
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (40):
Level 4 for 80 Million-40 points

Civilian Builds (36):

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-2 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

4% Growth: 10 Industry Centers

6 points to Egypt
6 points to Syria
12 points to Brazil

.5 to Operations in Arabia

Military Builds (90):

SECRET Nuclear Infrastructure-24 points (year 1 of 3)

2 Armored Divisions-10 points

3 Attack Submarines-15 points
2 Heavy Cruisers-16 points (year 1 of 3)

3 Do-337-9 points

5 Elite Pilots-10 points (year 1 of 2)
3 Elite Pilots-6 points (year 2 of 2)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1953
Population: 80 Million
Tech Level:7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3% Regular Spending +1% EEC
Production: 101, 2 oil points, 1 Nuclear Power, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
4 Dortmund, 4 Essen, 4 Dusseldorf, 4 Koln, 4 Bonn, 3 Bremen, 9 Hamburg, 4 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 2 Mainz, 3 Mannheim, 4 Leipzig, 4 Dresden, 2 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 2 Stuttgart, 6 Munich, 3 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 2 Karlsbad, 2 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 2 Konigsburg, 2 Breslau, 2 Poznan

Regular Spending: 202 Industry+2 oil+1 Nuke Power+8 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=261 points

Syria 1952 Budget
Syria is now Tech 7 and in WARTIME mode
Income:49.5 (assuming sale to brazil)
Consistent Spending (lvl 5 social+maintenance): 13
Other Spending:

Repay Germany (for things y'all dont know about, really V-2)-3
3 shipping units
mech artillery unit
Dassault Mirage IIIx100
mech flak group
3 avg. pilots
Do-337
Helicopter Unit
5/6 of a shipping unit (2.5/3)

(sorry, running out the door.

Am I in charge of any NPC nation builds?

My allocated NPC builds:

Basra 1952
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 4
Economy: (Normal spending) [3% growth]
Economic Budget [6]: (Oil [2]: 2x oil resource 2. Commerce [4]: 4x shipping 4.

Domestic Spending:

Level 3 social spending 1 point,
5/5 national airline 1 point, [100% Complete]
1x Shipping unit 3 points


Military Spending:

Maintenace:
1 garrison unit .25 points,
2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) .5 points

Total= .75 points.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baghdad 1952
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 5
Economy: (Normal Spending) [3% growth]
Economic Budget [7]: (Production Centres [4]: Baghdad 2. Oil [1]: 1 oil resource. Commerce [2]: 1x national airline 2

Domestic Spending:
Level 3 social spending 1 point,


Military Spending:

1x mechanized infantry division- 4 points

Maintenance:
1 garrison unit. 25 points,
4 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point,
1 artillery unit .25 points

Total= 1.5 points


(Editors note: Some of the above military units are going to have to be in reserve (Probably the artillery and one of the LIDs, which most will likely change to the artillery and two of the LIDs when the MID arrives).
I am continuing the militaristic build up of Baghdad, which as you can see cannot continue much further, however Basra to the south is weaker than Baghdad militaristically and has much richer oil reserves, this could be a point for a future conflict especially with all the weirdness goin gon in that area already)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belgium 1952
Population: 8 Million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% natural growth + 1% EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget: 25 points (Production centres [7] :Liege 3, Brussels 3, Antwerp 1. Commerce [10]: 1x national airline 2, 1x international airline 2, 4x shipping units 6 [2,000,000 million tons]. Other [6]: 6 colonial points. Growth [2]: 1x point of growth 2

Domestic Spending:

level 3 social services 3 points,
civil defense 1 point,
5 Shipping units 15 points


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
4 garrison units 1 point,
4 expert pilots 2 points,
1 F84 jet fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 unit .25 points,
1 elite airborne brigade 1 point,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points

Total= 5.25

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Netherlands 1952
Population: 10 million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% Growth + 1 % EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget [19]: (Production Centres [6]:Rotterdam 3, Amsterdam 3. Commerce [7] plus 1 national airline, 5 shipping units. Other [3]: 3 colonial points. Tourism [1]: Carribean colony 1. Growth [2]: 1x point of growth 2

Domestic Spending:
level 4 social spending 4 points,
12/24 factory 6 points, [50% complete]
2 to UN World Bank


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
2 reserve garrison units .5 points,
2 mechanized divisions 1 point,
2 coastal patrol groups .5 points,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers each) .5 points
2 escort cruisers 1 point,
1 F100 fighter wing .5 points,
1 F86D all weather fighter wing .5 points,
2 elite pilots 2 points,

Total= 6.5

Federated Asian States 1952 Build, Tech Level 7
Spending Type: Market Economy Recovery from Total War, Growth -1%(normally -2%, but since I'm part of the SCT I get that itty bitty growth increase): 41 Commerce(26 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline) + 46.5 Production(total production centers:23.25, 2 damaged) + 10 tourism(Civil Unrest) = 97.5 points

Population: 400 million people (OOC: This is a rough estimate)

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 1
x1 Mechanized .5
x12 Pilots 0
x4 C47 1
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1
x25 Light Infantry 6.25
x17 Armored 8.5
x3 Infantry .75
x2 Parachute Divisions .5 points
x4 Improved MRBMs 4 points
x9 Mustard Gas "batches" 0
Total Spent: 25.75

Total Remaining: 71.75 points

Social Services:
Level 1 Social Services for everyone (40 points)

Total Spent: 55.75

Total Remaining: 42.75 points

Construction:
x2 Repair Construction Centers 24

Total Spent: 79.75

Total Remaining: 17.75

Research:
Pulmonary agents (allows use of Phosgene) 12 points, year 2

Total Spent:91.75

Total Remaining: 5.75

Aid to other nations:
Burma: 5.75

Total Spent: 97.5

Total Remaining: 0

I think we should have a minimum maximum (if you know what I mean) on tourism. I think it's pretty dumb that me and my awesome pyramids, sphinx, statues, etc. only get 2 points while other nations are getting 20 or 30 points for having nothing (who turns down pyramids for a stupid wall anyway? :p ) Maybe us 'less populated' nations could have a maximum of 5 or something until we can pop out enough babies for more.

To finish my whining, why is Egypt one of the last nations to reach the next tech level? We've got guns, money, and technoligy. What else do you need?

I think we should have a minimum maximum (if you know what I mean) on tourism. I think it's pretty dumb that me and my awesome pyramids, sphinx, statues, etc. only get 2 points while other nations are getting 20 or 30 points for having nothing (who turns down pyramids for a stupid wall anyway? :p ) Maybe us 'less populated' nations could have a maximum of 5 or something until we can pop out enough babies for more.

We do have min-max. I think it's 1 point per 10 million people up to 20 points (20 being the cap).

I think the 20-point cap is for all nations.

I think the 20-point cap is for all nations.

Yeah, it is.

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1952 builds:

Population 33 million
Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Wartime! 1%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 2%)

78 points Production centers: Seoul 3 Pusan 3 Pyongyang 3 Vladivostok 3 Kwangju 1

12 shipping units= 18 Points

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points

and 2 points of tourism (Seoul and Pyongyang International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

104 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 4 social spending- 12 points

Foreign Aid- 24 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

2 infantry division .5 points
2 mountain infantry brigades .5 points
1 HQ unit- 1pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points

Korean Air Force:

1 F86 fighter unit –.5 points
1 C47 transport unit .25
6 expert pilots 1.50 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5

Total: 9.5 Points (Estimated)

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

2 Corsair fighter bomber units .25 points

Things to buy- 62.5

6 points for two units of Dassault Mirage III fighters

3 points for a Lincoln Tanker

2 points for a Flying Boxcar

18 points for Six Shipping Units (Represents a New Export Oriented Agenda)

4 points for 4 IRBM missile units (One for an eventual space launch!)

8 points for Pusan and Vladivostok International Airports

5 points for a transport group

5 points for a Frigate Flotilla



OOC: If there are problems with this, let me know. This is technically year two of the FAS War, so I should be at Wartime Economy.

<snip>

Koryan, to answer your first question, I suppose there could be exceptions for nations with unusual tourist attractions (i.e. pyramids or Sphinx), although then we get into the issue of who defines an "important attraction." I think a 5 point cap for less populated nations is a good idea.

As to your tech level question, you'll have to ask Galveston Bay, since he assigned those dates, but I would imagine that it has something to do with the fact that Egypt hasn't been in any arms races or competed with rival powers during this century.

The Lightning Star, you have no NPC builds to worry about, unless you want them.

New Dornalia, by my count you should have 102 points of income, not 98.

New Dornalia, by my count you should have 102 points of income, not 98.

Thanks. I actually got 104 adding growth. I'm buying IRBMs, and thinking about doing a mission.

Am I allowed to do builds for Ethiopia? (We're close allies, neighbors, and he owes me money)

Sure. Have at it.

1952

The United Egyptian, Sudanese, and Palestinian Republics
Population: 32 Million
Tech Level: ***7*** (Reached this Year!)
Production: 101.75
15 Egyptian Centers (30) + RE (2.5)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian International Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (21)
6 Sudanese Centers (12) + RE (.75)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese International Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)
Sudanese Shipping (7.5)
1 Palestinian Center (2)
Palestinian Shipping (3)
German Aid (12) (I didn’t see the 6 from last year)
*Ethiopian Loan Cancelled*

Maintenance: 8.5
5 Garrison Units (1.25)
4 Mountain Infantry Brigades (1)
2 Mechanized Divisions (1)
3 Expert Pilots (.75)
2 Infantry Corps (1)
2 Hawker Hunters (1)
1 Armored Divisions (.5)
2 Armored Brigades (.5)
1 Dassault Mirage III (1)
1 Mechanized Artillery (.5)

Production: 80
Level 3 Social Services: 12
2 Egyptian Production Centers: 48
2 Light Infantry Divisions: 2
2 Shipping Units: 6
Intelligence Agency: 10
Palestinian Tourism: 2 (Other half paid for last year)

Foreign Aid: 13.5
UN: 9 (All debt now paid off)
Ethiopia: 3.5

Budget: 101.75
Remainders from Last Year: .5
Total Budget: 102.25
Total Costs: 102
Remainders for Next Year: .25

The Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia)
Population: 20 Million
Tech Level: 5
Production: 10.5
2 Production Centers (4)
Resources (1)
National Airline (2)
United Republican Aid (3.5)

Maintenance: 2.5
8 Light Infantry Divisions: (2)
2 Infantry Corps: (.5)

Production: 8
Lv.1 Social Services: 2
International Airline: 6

Budget: 10.5
Total Costs: 10.5

This is a notice for SCT members, only 4 more points can be spent on Asian Space Program this year. So please allocate those points to other projects or they will be wasted.

OOC:

I just had an idea!

Ok, y'know how during the Cold War, NATO and the Warsaw Pact kept making coups in countries all over the place? Well, I have an idea.

Let's say I'm...Oh, I don't know, Germany. And I want to stage a coup in...say, Czechslovakia. So what I do is spend 1 point for every million people in Czechslovakia (which, by my calculations, is about 12 million people) for the coup to take place. Now, lets say the base value for a Coup suceeding is, say, 25%. For a neighbor, that adds 5%, so you have 30% chance of sucess. This represents the fact that, since the nations are neighbors, they probably have a tad more influence. For a nation that is a member of your alliance (I.E. The SCT), it goes up another 5% (since you have alot of influence with them, too). If you have an intelligence agency, it goes up another 5%. Also, for every division you have stationed in that country(but not as an occupying force in a war against the nation yer trying to coup), you get an extra 1% chance of sucess. That means you have about a max of 40% chance of your coup working (without factoring in your divisions).

This is basically designed for big, player nations trying to stage coups in small, weak, NPC nations. If, for example, you are trying to stage a coup in is big and populous (Russia, for example, which had a pop of around 100 million in 1950), you'd have to spend 100 points on it. If the FAS was NPC, you'd have to spend, say, 400 points. This system pretty much shows that it's easier to stage a coup in a small country than in a large one. I was also thinking you'd have to spend 2x points on trying to stage a coup on PC nations (ex: spending 1,000 points on trying to coup china, instead of 500 normally)

Of course, this system pretty much sucks. For example; what's to stop Germany from spending 30 points on staging coups in its NPC neighbors? Or how in gods name is someone supposed to try and stage a coup in China? Or if you're staging a coup on a PC nation, does that person have to follow through?

Anyhoo, this was just throwing around an idea. I bet, if we decide to even implement this, someone else can come up with a vastly superior system.

I think that's a good idea, because coups are cool, but other factors need to be taken into account, such as the type of government and the level of governmental control.

A democratic nation, like Australia for example, is much less likely to have an attempted coup than a more oppressive nation, like Portugal. If we can figure out a way to represent this in the coup system, then we should, because it's important.

As for governmental control, a nation with secret police (like the South Africa Staatpolitie) will be able to prevent coups much more effectively. There's a reason why South Africa is the only African country to never have a coup d'etat. Maybe we could represent this by saying that secret police decrease a coup's chances by 10% or 15%?

Finally, we need to think about colonies *shifty glance at Mozambique and Angola* Frankly, I think it would be easier to overthrow a colonial government, especially one that is harsh and oppressive. For example, a colony could have a third again as high a chance of a coup succeeding; it doesn't have to take government type into account, either (the Americans revolted against the mostly democratic British colonial government, afterall).

EDIT: As for coups in PC nations, it would probably be more effective to have the nation that wants a coup to fund and supply rebels who fight the government, rather than try for a full-blown coup. Sort of like what the US did in the Middle Eastern Union, or like Rhodesia funding RENAMO in RL.

If only I could find out how Coups work in Hearts of Iron 2...

well, if a country has an intelligence agency, we would say, that for every year that its been in service, thats a 10% chance it will discover the coup to a maximum of 80%... which may still be too low! Also someone could have a 40% chance of discovering this happening in a different country than their own, and they in turn could spent points to counter-balance the other players attempts at a coup.

well, if a country has an intelligence agency, we would say, that for every year that its been in service, thats a 10% chance it will discover the coup to a maximum of 80%... which may still be too low! Also someone could have a 40% chance of discovering this happening in a different country than their own, and they in turn could spent points to counter-balance the other players attempts at a coup.

Other things that can be done include going the historic Saudi route, in other words, the Saudi National Guard is just as powerful as the Saudi Army, or you could do the Soviet thing and have political officers or you could simply give the military lots of money in hopes they will be happy.

I think that's a good idea, because coups are cool, but other factors need to be taken into account, such as the type of government and the level of governmental control.

A democratic nation, like Australia for example, is much less likely to have an attempted coup than a more oppressive nation, like Portugal. If we can figure out a way to represent this in the coup system, then we should, because it's important.


Limits on this, perhaps to the degree that certain nations are coup free. For example, what are the serious odds, even with massive funding, that a coup takes place in Great Britain or the United States?

Limits on this, perhaps to the degree that certain nations are coup free. For example, what are the serious odds, even with massive funding, that a coup takes place in Great Britain or the United States?


Agreed. Nations like Britain or the US are pretty much coup-free, countries like South Africa or the FNS are susceptible (if only because there's such a large and diverse population spread out over such a large area), and places like the FAS are downright coup-tastic.

places like the FAS are downright coup-tastic.

Wow, coup-tastic, that's such a cool word it's got to enter my everyday vocabulary!

Agreed. Nations like Britain or the US are pretty much coup-free, countries like South Africa or the FNS are susceptible (if only because there's such a large and diverse population spread out over such a large area), and places like the FAS are downright coup-tastic.

I like that word. Coup-tastic.

However, I don't think any nations should be coup-proof. Maybe have really low chances (like maybe 5%), but never say never. After all, I'd rather like the U.S. military to overthrow a government. That's what the government should do right now in RL, at least. Overthrow Bush, and prepare for elections next November.

USEA 1952 build

Population: 40 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 10% Rural Electrification bonus + 1% SCT Economic Bonus= 14%}]

Economic budget: 124 points (Production centers [70]: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 2, Pnomh Penh 2, Bangkok 2, Haiphong 2, Da Nang 2, Cam Ranh 2, Si Racha 2, Can Tho 2, Kampong Cham 2, Sattahip 2, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 1. Commerce[40]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 24x Shipping Units 36 [12,000,000 million tons]. Tourism [4]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 1, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[10]: 5 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 20 points

Asian Space program- 11.5 points

1x Shipping unit for Burma- 1.5 points [To be completed next year]

Military:

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Upgrade F84 fighter bomber unit to Dassault Mirage III Units- 3 points

1x Unit A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit- 3 points

2x Marine light infantry brigades- 4 points

4x Light infantry divisions- 4 points

2x Elite pilots- 8 points

[Secret: Nuclear Infrastructure- 24 points (100% complete)]

[Secret: Nuclear Fueling Capability- 24 points (100% Complete)]

1x Coastal Patrol Group- 3 points

Maintenance:
4 infantry corps 4 points,*
1 parachute brigade .75 points,*
1 HQ unit 1.5 point,*
1 marine light infantry brigade .75 points,*
2 flak groups 1 point,*
1 mechanized infantry division 1 points.*
-
1 F84 fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 AD1 Skyraider light bomber unit .25 points,
3 Elite pilots 1.5 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 point {under construction}
1 Light light missile cruiser .5 points {under construction}
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points {under construction}

TOTAL= 12.5
(*Denotes elite training)

Contributors to the Asian Space Program are informed that the launch facilty at Hat Yai is nearing completion and will be ready to begin Launches in 1953.

Does the SCT still need to come up with 4 more points, or is it already paid for? I need to know so that I can adjust China's 1952 builds accordingly.

Does the SCT still need to come up with 4 more points, or is it already paid for? I need to know so that I can adjust China's 1952 builds accordingly.

No I pulled the 4 (3.5 exactly) out of my surplus.

British Builds 1952
(Important bits are italicised). Standard market economy, 3% growth (plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth)

Production Centres: 99 as follows: 15 London, 12 Birmingham, 8 Coventry, 8 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds, 3 Derby, 3 Nottingham,

INCOME
Production Centres: 198 points
Colonial Support: 4 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign))
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 5 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German Nuclear Research: 6 points
From German government for ESA program: 4 points
From French government for ESA program: 4 points

TOTAL: 278

growth yields 11 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 65
level 4 social services for UK (52m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (64m): 32
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance)
12 points for tactical nuclear weapons research (year 3 of 5)
24 points to start and finish large ICBM missile program (24/24 complete)
1 point for unmanned mission costs (Sputnik style satellite)
12 points for space research (first manned orbital missions) (12/24 complete)
level 4 social serviced for British, Moroccan and Algerian UN mandates (24m): 12

Extraordinary Expenditure:

50 points for 10 nuclear subs (4 attack, 6 missile).
6 points for 2 Handley Page Victor air tankers
2 E1 Tracer carrier based airborne early warning aircraft = 6 points
1 E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft = 3 points
2 U2 strategic recon aircraft = 6 points
5 pilots = 10 points


Total: 278

Build 1952
45 prod centers-
Kiel 3, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 3, Tallin 2, Murmansk 2
30 shipping units
4 airlines
80 points Prod centers(National Effort), 40 points commerce, 2 points tourism

30.5 points- maintenance
6 points-lv 3 social
6 points-Nuke program
5 points-intel agency
12 points-nuclear fueling(year 4 of 4)
4 points-chemical research stage 3(3 of 3)
3 points-1 Voodoo F101
8 points-2 elite pilot
4 points-2 Saab Lansens
23 points-large ICBM’s (9 actually used in Saudi Arabia)

+1 prod center from growth


I'll get my NPC's later.

China's build for 1952...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 187 industry + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 260 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 187 points + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 260 points total.

Other Income: 15 points.
6 points from sale of 2 units of Dassault Mirage III’s to Korea
3 points from sale of 1 unit of Dassault Mirage III’s to Syria
3 points from sale of 1 unit of Dassault Mirage III’s to South Africa
3 points from sale of 1 unit of Dassault Mirage III's to USEA

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

9 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
137 points = Level III social services

161 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

9 points for 3 Artillery Corps.
36 points for 12 Mystere III Fighter Units
14 points for 7 pilot units
30 points for 6 Armored Corps
15 points for 3 Mechanized Flak Corps
10 points for 2 Infantry Corps

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 1 of 10, 3 / 30 points)

24 points spent on Nuclear Infrastructure (Year 3 of 3. Final 24 points are drawn from the 72 points from 1950)

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (20 / 80. Remaining debt: 60 points)

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
31 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1953 economy:

218 industry
50 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points and 10 airline points)
3 oil points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 291 income points for 1953.

tag

Russian Budget 1952
Population: 92 million
Tech Level: 7
Income: 140 points (67 production centers (Vitebsk 5, Kalinin 5, Minsk 5, Tula 3, Kursk 2, Saratov 5, Krasnador 2, Smolensk 2, Rostov 3, Kazan 5, Perm 5, Sverdlovsk 5, Kubyshev 5, Novosibirsk 5, Irkustk 5, Chita 5), 3 oil points (Grozny, Maikop, Perm), 4 commerce (national and international airline))
Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Military maintenance: 4 points (6 infantry corp-3, 2 air transport-1)
Spending: 9 Jet-capable airports-36 points, 3x production centers-72 points

Kordo, here's the Russian build for 1952. Feel free to edit it as you see fit.

Ex-British colonies economics 1952:

Please let me know if these posts are OK, I am a little unsure of some points.

States that will be independent by years end:

Gambia

Pop: 280,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), .25 points loaned from the World Bank, will repay next turn.
Spending: level 4 social .25 points; 1 point for an infantry division.
Growth: 0

Nigeria

Pop: 35 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at Lagos, 5 points from Oil exports, 2 points from cruise terminal and airport.
Spending: 10 points for level 3 social services, 1 point for one infantry division
Growth: 1/2 production centre.

Togo

Pop: 1.3 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa)
Spending: 2 points for level 3 social services, 1 point for an infantry division
Growth: 0

Ghana

Pop: 4.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa)
Spending: level 4 social services 2.5 points, 1 point for 1 infantry division, .5 points towards a garrison (.5/3)
Growth: 0

Senegal

Pop: 2.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Dakar
Spending: 1 point for level 3 social services, 1 point for an infantry division.

Togo
Pop: 1.3 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé
Spending: Level 4 social services 1 point, 1 point for an infantry division.

States that will amalgamate by year's end:

Malaya and Singapore
Pop: 5.5 million
Tech: 5
Income: 1 production centre at Kuala Lumpur and one at Singapore, one resource point (rubber)
Spending: Level 4 social services 3 points, two infantry divisions 2 points.

Special Autonomous Regions:

Sierra Leone
Pop: 1.9 million
Tech: 6
Income: One production centre at Freetown
Spending: Level 4 services 1 point, one point for one infantry division.

All African nations are tech 5 from British, South African and US investment prior to Great War III.

Population:
16 million Australasian (30 million Indonesian)

Market Economy Peacetime:
Growth = 4% (3+1) of 90.5 rounds to 3 new Production Centers
Production Centers:
Sydney 4; Melbourne 4; Adelaide 3; Canberra 2; Brisbane 3; Auckland 2; Perth 3; Wellington 1; Port Moresby 1 = 46
Oil Points:
4 From Indonesia = 4
Colonial:
Indonesia 6 (three industrial centers makes 12); New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 16
Commerce:
23 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 38.5
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)

Budget for 1952: 46+4+16+38.5+1.5= 106 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
Level 4 Social Services to Indonesia = 12 points
23.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
2 Cruisers--1 point
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
6 Pilots at Expert Level--3 points
1 Pilot at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions--1 point
2 Garrison Units at Average level--1 point
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
1 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--0.5 points
1 Light Jet Bomber--0.5 points
1 Fighter Bomber--0.25 points
1 Transport--0.25
4 jet fighters--2 points
2 Gen. 3 jet fighters--2 points
18 Points Spent

Military Spending:
(2 Missile Cruisers will be ready in 1953)
12 Points to finish Research of Short Range (V2) type missiles
6 Points for 2 F101 Voodoo Fighters
2 Points for C82 Flying Boxcar Transport
4 Points for 2 Indonesian Pilots (average training)
6 Points for 2 Indonesian Garrison Units
10 Points for 2 Indonesian Frigate Flotillas
40 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
21 Points to build 7 Merchant Marines (six for Indonesia)
21 Points Spent

23.5 + 18 + 40 + 21 = 102.5 Points Spent
3.5 points to world bank

Australian Commerce Breakdown
34 Economic Points

6- USA
6- Britain
4- South Africa
3- FAS
3- China
2- USEA
2- Korea
2- Germany
2- FNS
2- Japan
2- Dispersed-Many other nations receive fractions, including much of industrialised Europe

sorry I've been really inactive

Japan builds 1952

Population: 75 million
Points: 70 production points+18 shipping units+16 from Airports= 104 points
Level 4 Social Safety Net: 40
Maintenance:
4 Elite Light Infantry: 3
2 Elite Pilots: 1
4 Transport Units: 1
Points left: 59
Build:
2 Expert Pilots: 4
8 Shipping Units: 24
Intelliegence Agency+trawlers: 11
2 Patrol/Escort Units: 10
Points left: 10
To SCT (for general use):5
Aid to the Phillipines: 5
Points Left=0

USEA 1952 build

Population: 40 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 10% Rural Electrification bonus + 1% SCT Economic Bonus= 14%}]

Economic budget: 124 points (Production centers [70]: Hanoi 2, Saigon, 2, Vientene 2, Pnomh Penh 2, Bangkok 2, Haiphong 2, Da Nang 2, Cam Ranh 2, Si Racha 2, Can Tho 2, Kampong Cham 2, Sattahip 2, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 1. Commerce[40]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 24x Shipping Units 36 [12,000,000 million tons]. Tourism [4]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 1, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[10]: 5 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 20 points

Asian Space program- 11.5 points

1x Shipping unit for Burma- 3 points

1x Shipping unit for Burma- 2.5 points [To be completed next year]

Military:

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Upgrade F84 fighter bomber unit to Dassault Mirage III Units- 3 points

1x Unit A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit- 3 points

2x Marine light infantry brigades- 4 points

4x Light infantry divisions- 4 points

2x Elite pilots- 8 points

[Secret: Nuclear Infrastructure- 24 points (100% complete)]

[Secret: Nuclear Fueling Capability- 24 points (100% Complete)]

1x Coastal Patrol Group- 3 points

Maintenance:
4 infantry corps 4 points,*
1 parachute brigade .75 points,*
1 HQ unit 1.5 point,*
1 marine light infantry brigade .75 points,*
2 flak groups 1 point,*
1 mechanized infantry division 1 points.*
-
1 F84 fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 AD1 Skyraider light bomber unit .25 points,
3 Elite pilots 1.5 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 point {under construction}
1 Light light missile cruiser .5 points {under construction}
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points {under construction}

TOTAL= 12.5
(*Denotes elite training)

EDITED

(What Malkyer posted earlier)

Russian Budget 1952
Population: 92 million
Tech Level: 7

Income: 140 points(67 production centers (Vitebsk 5, Kalinin 5, Minsk 5, Tula 3, Kursk 2, Saratov 5, Krasnador 2, Smolensk 2, Rostov 3, Kazan 5, Perm 5, Sverdlovsk 5, Kubyshev 5, Novosibirsk 5, Irkustk 5, Chita 5), 3 oil points (Grozny, Maikop, Perm), 4 commerce (national and international airline))

Level 3 Social Services: 28 points

Military maintenance:
4 points (6 infantry corp-3, 2 air transport-1)

Spending:
9 Jet-capable airports-36 points
3x production centers-72 point

1952 Builds updated for Palestinian Republic

1952 - FNS

46 Million Population

145 base (5 points of growth) (145 potential) + 100 points from International Trade = 245

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 58.25


6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
2 x Missile Cruiser = 1p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
3 x Light Ships (15 Destroyers) = .75p
3 x Light Ships (30 Frigates) = .75
10 x Nuclear Submarines
9 x Pilots Upgrade = 6.75p (Elite Training)
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
100 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 1p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

143pts + 20pts from China for Discretionary Spending (163)

300 Anti-shipping missiles - 30pts
Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
Year 1/3 Heavy Missile Cruiser - 4pts
Year 1/3 Heavy Missile Cruiser - 4pts
Destroyer Squadron - 5pts
Destroyer Squadron - 5pts
Destroyer Squadron - 5pts
Frigate Flotilla - 5pts
Frigate Flotilla - 5pts
Patrol Group - 5pts
Missile Boats - 3pts
Missile Boats - 3pts
20 points to Brazil
12 points for improved communications for aircraft
12 points for improved interceptor RADAR
23 points for general interceptor research

Errr, quick question. On the front page it says I am one of the few nations with an intelligence service, yet in the build Malkyer gave me it doesn't have the up keep factored in.

So I guess the question is do I actually have one and need to pay up keep for it?

Errr, quick question. On the front page it says I am one of the few nations with an intelligence service, yet in the build Malkyer gave me it doesn't have the up keep factored in.

So I guess the question is do I actually have one and need to pay up keep for it?

You have one, I just left it out of the build because I wasn't paying attention. You can take its upkeep out of the airports or production centers I had Russia build, or you can redo the whole thing if there's something else you'd rather spend the money on.

(What Malkyer posted earlier)

Russian Budget 1952
Population: 92 million
Tech Level: 7

Income: 140 points(67 production centers (Vitebsk 5, Kalinin 5, Minsk 5, Tula 3, Kursk 2, Saratov 5, Krasnador 2, Smolensk 2, Rostov 3, Kazan 5, Perm 5, Sverdlovsk 5, Kubyshev 5, Novosibirsk 5, Irkustk 5, Chita 5), 3 oil points (Grozny, Maikop, Perm), 4 commerce (national and international airline))

Level 3 Social Services: 28 points

Military maintenance:
4 points (6 infantry corp-3, 2 air transport-1)

Spending:
9 Jet-capable airports-36 points
3x production centers-72 point

you should be able to come up with 5 points for an intelligence service somehow, and yes, Russia has one. I would cut airport and production center builds, and let natural expansion have a bigger role, along with maybe buying some more shipping. You still have ports in the Black sea, plus Archangel (in the summer) and a couple of summer seaports in Siberia you can use.

If you want I can hammer out something for you to look at tomorrow probably

Tried something new. However I never really understood the details of the economic system (math has never been my strong point) so feel free to offer even more suggestions.

Russian Budget 1952
Population: 92 million
Tech Level: 7

Income: 140 points(67 production centers (Vitebsk 5, Kalinin 5, Minsk 5, Tula 3, Kursk 2, Saratov 5, Krasnador 2, Smolensk 2, Rostov 3, Kazan 5, Perm 5, Sverdlovsk 5, Kubyshev 5, Novosibirsk 5, Irkustk 5, Chita 5), 3 oil points (Grozny, Maikop, Perm), 4 commerce (national and international airline))

Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Intelligence Network: 6 Points

Military maintenance:
8 points (6 infantry corps, 2 air transports)

Spending:
4x Jet-capable airports- 16 points
20x Shipping Counters - 40
2x Yak 28 – 6 Points
4x Yak 25 – 12 Points
6x Expert Pilots – 12 Points
1x Elite Mountain Corps – 12 Points

By my count, Kordo, you have one point of surplus. If you want, you could use that to upgrade your intelligence service. Details of what that does are in the main post.

Brazil's 1952 Build:

Population: 55 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 3, Rio de Janeiro 2, Salvador 1, Recife 1, Santos 1, = 16 points
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 1 national = 4 points
Shipping: 13 shipping units = 19.5 points
Tourism:
Air Terminals: 2 (Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo) – 2 points
Cruise Terminals: 1 (Belem) = 1 point

Foreign Aid:

FNS - 20 points
Germany - 12 points

1% Growth (due to national effort) = 1/2 Factory – Belo Horizonte 1

Total Production:
48 industry + 4 airline + 19.5 shipping + 3 tourism + 32 foreign aid = 106.5 points (due to national effort)

Maintenance:

Social:

Level III Social Spending – 16.5 points

Military:

4 Highly Trained Garrisons - 2 points
2 Regular Pilots - Free
2 Highly Trained Infantry Division - 1

Total Military and Social Maintenance – 19.5 points

Points left for builds – 87 points

Builds:

Domestic:

14 shipping units – 42 points
2 national airlines – 10 points
1 large airport – 5.5 points
Rural Electrification – 5.5 points (year 1 of 2)
Improved Transportation Infrastructure - 11 points (year 1 of 3)
1 air terminal (Salvador) – 4 points
1 cruise terminal (Fortaleza) – 4 points
1 Factory (Curitiba) – 5 out of 24 points

I need to know what damage I received in the Civil War before I can move forward!

I figure the following:

Kabul, heavily fought over all industry damaged, 1 prod centre destroyed

Madras, hard fought, all industry damaged, one destroyed

Banadar Abbas, major battlefield, all industry damaged

Tabriz, minor damage, one production centre damaged

Eastern Hyderabad, minor damage, one prod centre damaged

Bangalore, minor damage, one prod centre damaged

Spending:
4x Jet-capable airports- 16 points
7x Shipping Counters - 14
3x production centers-72 point

If I were you, I'd nix the production centers for now in favor of more shipping. They're far more efficient.

Kingdom of Morocco 1952
Population 11 million tech level 6.5
Production center: Casablanca 2, Tangiers 1, plus national airline, international airline, 1 colonial point Mauritania
Budget: 6 domestic +1 colonial + 4 commerce + 1 tourism = 12 points
Trading partners: Spain 1, US 1, Algeria 1, Africa 1
Level 3 social spending: 3.3 points
Army: 4 mountain brigades (well trained), 2 mechanized divisions (well trained) (equipped by US) 4 points
Air Force: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 F84 fighter bomber unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots, 2.5 points
Navy: 1 frigate unit, 1 coastal patrol unit .5 points
Social services assistance to Mauritania 1.7 points

Liberia (independent nation) 1952
Population: 800,000, tech level 5
Production center: Monrovia 2, 1 national airline
Budget: 3 points (reduced spending)
Level 4 social services: 1 point
Military: 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, 1 light infantry division (well trained) .5 points, remaining budget spent on (1.25 points) spent on developing tourism

Philippines 1952
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 4 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
remaining 1.2 points are being spent on improving tourism

Canada 1952
Population 14 million tech level 7
Production centers: Toronto 5, Thunder Bay 4, Montreal 2, Winnepeg 2, Vancouver 1, Halifax 1, oil center at Winnipeg, national air line, international airline, plus 10 shipping units,
Budget: 15 domestic (cut spending level) + 1 oil + 20 commerce + 1 tourism = 37 points
Trading partners: US 5, UK 5, Europe 5, East Asia 5
Level 4 Social Spending: 7 points
Civil Defense: 1.4 points
RCAF: 2 F101B all weather interceptors, 2 Hawker Hunter fighter bomber, 1 C82 transport unit, 1 Neptune maritime patrol unit, 1 KC97 tanker unit, 7 expert pilots, 6 points
Canadian Army: 2 elite airborne brigades, 1 well trained mechanized division, 3 reserve mechanized divisions, 1 reserve HQ unit 5 points
RCN: 1 frigate unit, 2 escort groups (corvettes), 1 submarine unit (5 snorkel submarines) 1.25 points
21 points subtotal
1952 purchases:
1 pilot unit, 1 helicopter transport unit, 5 points
1 C130 unit 3 points
1 pilot unit 2 points
1 E121 unit 3 points
3 points to UN World Bank

Iceland (includes Greenland)
Population 150,000, tech level 6
No production, 3 resources (fishing)
level 5 social spending 1 point, excess spent on developing tourism
Iceland has no military, and depends on Canadian and US protection

Cuba 1952
Population 6 million tech level 5
Havana 3 production centers
Budget: 6 domestic + 1 tourism
Level 4 social spending: 2 points, Civil Defense 1 point, Navy of 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, Army with 1 well trained parachute brigade .5 points, Air Force with 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot 1 point, (4.75 points total)
Remainder (1.25 points) being spent on improving tourist infrastructure
Cuba has decided to dispense with a large military, and primarily the Army spends its time doing disaster relief, while the Navy is essentially just a coast guard.

Central American nations 1952 (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras)
Population: 7.2 million, tech level 5
1 production center each Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras,
Budget: 6 points domestic +1 point tourism
Level 4 social spending: 3.6 points
Civil Defense: .72 points
Coast Guard: 2 Coastal Patrol groups .5 points
Air Force: 1 helicopter unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 2 expert pilots 2 points
The Central American nations have gotten rid of their militaries, retaining only a coast guard and air units to assist during time of disaster (hurricanes and earthquakes)

Mexico
Population: 35 million tech level 6.5
Production centers: Vera Cruz 1, Monterrey 2, Mexico City 2, Yucatan 3, Tampico 2, 2 oil points, 1 national airline
Budget: 10 domestic (reduced spending) + 2 commercial + 2 oil + 2 tourism = 16 points
level 3 social spending 10.5 points,
Civil Defense: 3.5 points
4 garrison units (poor quality)(free),
Coast Guard: 2 coastal patrol units .5 points
Air Force: 1 C82 transport unit, 1 F101B all weather interceptor unit, 2 expert pilots


Virgin Islands
Population: 50,000 tech level 5
1 international airline
budget: 1 point tourism
level 5 social services: .5 points
remainder spent on 2 coastal patrol units (.5 points)

Haiti
Population: 3 million, tech level 4
1 production center
Budget: 2 domestic points
Level 4 social spending: 1.5 points plus .25 points for 1 coastal patrol unit, .25 points for 1 C47 unit with average pilot

Dominican Republic
Population: 500,000, tech level 4
1 production center
Budget: 1 domestic points (cut spending) + 1 tourism = 2 points
Level 4 social spending: .25 points, coast guard of 2 patrol units .5 points, 1 light infantry division (well trained) .5 points, Civil defense: .12 points, remainder spent on buying an international airline


US Budget 1952
Population 154 million tech level 7
Production centers 275 (maximum potential 300)
Shipping units 25
Oil 23
Colonial 5
Tourist income 15
Airlines 4 (international and national)

Income
550 domestic + 40 commerce + 23 oil + 5 colonial + 15 tourism = 633 points
1952 Growth 4% peacetime spending

Trading Partners: Canada 4, Mexico 4, UK 3, Japan 4, Russia 4, Central America, Caribbean and Iceland 4, FNS 4, Africa 3, East Asia 3, Europe 4, South Asia 1, Australia 2

Military maintenance 156 points
Level 4 social services (all US including colonial territories) 76 points
Civil Defense 15 points
Intelligence Agency maintenance 5 points
Nuclear energy program 6 points

Military and Civilian research
ICBM technology 12 points (year 4 of 4)
Manned Space flight (X 15) 12 points (Year 2 of 4)(first suborbital flights achieved this year, speed record set)
Nuclear weapons research 12 points (ongoing improvements, US scales back testing to a half dozen tests a year spread between Pacific Proving Ground and Nevada Proving Ground)

Subtotal 294 points

Military expansion and upgrades
2 Kitty Hawk class carrier battlegroups (year 2 of 3) 10 points
10 nuclear attack submarine 50 points
1 Frigate Flotilla 5 points
25 Atlas type ICBMs (not aimed at anyone, being used for testing, research and launch vehicles) 1 point
8 F8U Crusader carrier fighter units (24 points)
1 E1 Tracer carrier AEW units (3 points)
1 S2 Tracker carrier ASW units (2 points)
2 B52D strategic bombers (air combat defense improved to 10) 12 points
1 E121 airborne early warning unit 3 points
2 KC135 tanker units 6 points
2 C130 transport units 6 points
1 C133 heavy transport unit 3 points
Space program 6 satellite launch attempts planned (6 points)
Create 1st battalion/ 75th Ranger Regiment 2 points
1 U2 strategic recon unit 3 points
2 carrier pilot units 4 points
1 Air Force pilot unit 2 points
Create 10th Special Forces Group (battalion size) 2 points
subtotal 430 points

Foreign Aid
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Morocco (10 million people) 3 points (year 2 of 3)
Rural Electrification and Transportation improvements for Liberia (1 million people), 1 point ( year 2 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Mexico (32 million people), 9 points (year 2 of 3)
Rural electrification and transportation improvements for Central America, Iceland, Virgin Islands, Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, (20 million people) 6 points (year 2 of 3)
Rural Electrification and transportation improvements for Oman, Western Arabia, Kurdistan, Turkey, Central Asia, Jordan (32 million people) 10 points (year 2 of 3)
2 production centers for Kashgaria 48 points
Food aid to FAS 1 point
Covert CIA missions (1 point to continue effort to overthrow Saudis, 2 points to assist pro democracy Hindu groups in the FAS, 1 point each to assist Afghanis and Persians – essentially covert supplying of money to assist with peaceful and other efforts)

US domestic improvements
Nuclear powerplants (to provide 5 energy points long term to supplement oil points) 120 points (expanding atomic energy to 10 oil point equivalents)

ooc
Central America and the Caribbean decide that armies only lead to coups and got rid of them. They have the US to protect them in any case.

I figure the following:

Kabul, heavily fought over all industry damaged, 1 prod centre destroyed

Madras, hard fought, all industry damaged, one destroyed

Banadar Abbas, major battlefield, all industry damaged

Tabriz, minor damage, one production centre damaged

Eastern Hyderabad, minor damage, one prod centre damaged

Bangalore, minor damage, one prod centre damaged

Ha ha ha, the top four cities are part of the UIR! :D

Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 2, Smyrnia 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 9 shipping units=19 points
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
2 TA183D fighter units, 2 expert pilots, 2 TA152 fighter bomber units, 2 expert pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes, 8 light infantry divisions (well trained) 4 points, 4 militia units 8.5 points.
Purchase:
2 shipping-6 points
1 shipping unit-1.25 points(1.75 left)


Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 4, Alma Ata 2, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=16 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps, 2 pilots, 2 IL10, 1 garrison unit 2.75 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy:
1 Saab Lansen-2 points
1 pilot-2 points
1 international airline-1.75(4.25 left)

Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 1 international airline=8 points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
shipping unit-1 point(finished)


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 1 , Kashgar 1, 1 national airline=6 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
International airline-3 points(finished)

GB, add the 5 pts Japan gave to the Phillipines into their budget

Blegium Build

Population: 8 Million
Tech level: 7
Government:Capitalist Democracy
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% natural growth + 1% EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget: 25 points (Production centres [7] :Liege 3, Brussels 3, Antwerp 1. Commerce [10]: 1x national airline 2, 1x international airline 2, 4x shipping units 6 [2,000,000 million tons]. Other [6]: 6 colonial points. Growth [2]: 1x point of growth 2

Domestic Spending:

level 3 social services 3 points,
civil defense 1 point,
5 Shipping units 15 points


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
4 garrison units 1 point,
4 expert pilots 2 points,
1 F84 jet fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 unit .25 points,
1 elite airborne brigade 1 point,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points

Total: 5.25

GB, add the 5 pts Japan gave to the Phillipines into their budget

the Philippines will use it toward improving tourism

Blegium Build

Population: 8 Million
Tech level: 7
Government:Capitalist Democracy
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% natural growth + 1% EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget: 25 points (Production centres [7] :Liege 3, Brussels 3, Antwerp 1. Commerce [10]: 1x national airline 2, 1x international airline 2, 4x shipping units 6 [2,000,000 million tons]. Other [6]: 6 colonial points. Growth [2]: 1x point of growth 2

Domestic Spending:

level 3 social services 3 points,
civil defense 1 point,
5 Shipping units 15 points


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
4 garrison units 1 point,
4 expert pilots 2 points,
1 F84 jet fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 unit .25 points,
1 elite airborne brigade 1 point,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points

Total: 5.25

ooc
I suspect your Air Force wants new planes by now...

ooc
I suspect your Air Force wants new planes by now...

Does it? I'm not sure what the latest planes are....

Blegium Build, Edited

Population: 8 Million
Tech level: 7
Government:Capitalist Democracy
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% natural growth + 1% EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget: 25 points (Production centres [7] :Liege 3, Brussels 3, Antwerp 1. Commerce [10]: 1x national airline 2, 1x international airline 2, 4x shipping units 6 [2,000,000 million tons]. Other [6]: 6 colonial points. Growth [2]: 1x point of growth 2

Domestic Spending:

level 3 social services 3 points,
civil defense 1 point,
2 Shipping units 10 points

Total: 15 points


Military Spending:
1 BAC Lightning 2 pts
Upgrade 1 Garrison to Light Infantry Division 2 Points (I believe this is correct: Garrison to Infantry, Infantry to Light Infantry)

Total:4 Points

Maintenance:
4 garrison units 1 point,
4 expert pilots 2 points,
1 F84 jet fighter bomber unit .5 points,
1 C47 unit .25 points,
1 elite airborne brigade 1 point,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers, 20 corvettes) .5 points

Total: 5.25

Total: 24.25

I have an Intel service, the Syrian Foreign Intelligence and Reconnaissance (Group) or SFIR, the Arabic word for zero.

Okay, I'll add that to the first post.

Nigerian Build

11 points (2 Production Centers, 5 Points Oil, 2 Points Tourism)

10 Points-Level III Social Services

1 Point-International Airline

Japan's intelligence service (started this year) is the Bureau of International Intelligence (BII)

The Kingdom is in the market to buy something from the Korean Military if possible or any other nation if it is necessary to help restructure...

The Kingdom is in the market to buy something from the Korean Military if possible or any other nation if it is necessary to help restructure...

What does your nation need? China would be happy to supply what you need if it can.

1952

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available:44 -limit reach-

Commerce:
1 national airline, 1 international airline, 21 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 6, Nantes 5, Lille 6, Marseilles 5, Toulouse 5, Rouen 6, Vichy 5, Lyon 6

Tech Level: 7

Income:
Production Centeres: 44*2 = 88 points

Commerce:Total= 37 points
Shipping= 31.5 points
Ocean Liner=1.5 points
National Airline= 2 points
International Airline= 2 points

Tourisim= 4 points
Summer Olympics: 5 points


Investment Returns:
Yugoslavia= 1 point
Slovenia= 1 point
Albania & Kosovo= 1 point

Loan Repayment:
Portugal=1 point.
Northwest Africa=1 point.

Total= 138 Points

Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 8.25 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Intelligence Improvement Budget= 2.75 points
ESA Research= 4 points

Millitary Building:
4 Mechanised Flak groups= 20 points
1 Garison Unit= 3 points
1 HQ= 10 points
2 Light Jet Bombers (negotiating: B57 Canberra medium bomber)= 6 points

Foriegn Aid:
UIR: 24 points
Yugoslavia: 3 points
Slovenia: 3 points
Albania & Kosvo: 3 points

Forign Investment in Northwest Africa:
Rural Electrification and Infrastructure= 2 points for 3 years (infrastructure to hit level 6 so electrification can begin) (year 2/3)

Rural Electrification= 0 points (Year 0/2) <pending completion of infrastructure)