NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so I need to sell my extra coal, but I need to buy more oil? Gotcha.

Also, I don't get the pollution minus growth thing. Is that negative population growth, or negative economic growth? Because if it's negative population growth, pollution could be just what I need :)

It's negative economic growth, but since you have 4% growth from normal spending and being in the SCT,
4% - 3% = 1% so you have 1% economic growth.

However remember if you go into negative economic growth
E.g. 4% - 6% = -2% then you would have -2% economic growth which means you would start to lose production centres and go into economic depression.

If this depression goes on for ten years because of the negative modify to your groth caused by pollution then you start to lose population at which point you probably have to get in touch with GB or a mod.


This reminds me, new addition to the food rules:

If people are without food for more than three consecutive years you begin to lose population.

It's negative economic growth, but since you have 4% growth from normal spending and being in the SCT,
4% - 3% = 1% so you have 1% economic growth.

However remember if you go into negative economic growth
E.g. 4% - 6% = -2% then you would have -2% economic growth which means you would start to lose production centres and go into economic depression.

If this depression goes on for ten years because of the negative modify to your groth caused by pollution then you start to lose population at which point you probably have to get in touch with GB or a mod.


This reminds me, new addition to the food rules:

If people are without food for more than three consecutive years you begin to lose population.

Wait a fucking second here.

China is one of the most polluted countries in the world, but it's growing at breakneck speed.

Wait a fucking second here.

China is one of the most polluted countries in the world, but it's growing at breakneck speed.

an interesting paradox to be sure. Likely because its growth is not negative. Whatever the negative pollution percentage is is overwhelmed by the massive growth. That means pollution doesnt affect population.

an interesting paradox to be sure. Likely because its growth is not negative. Whatever the negative pollution percentage is is overwhelmed by the massive growth. That means pollution doesnt affect population.

I was going to guess "magic dragons", but your answer makes more sense. That's probably it.

Wait a fucking second here.

China is one of the most polluted countries in the world, but it's growing at breakneck speed.

Yeah , but that is because China in RL is not only heavily propped up by subsidies from the governemnt and from outside investors, but pollution is begining to take a very heavy toll (lots of deaths, lung related diseases are a big killer) and is starting to slow their growth down.
This is apart of the reason why they are investing in such huge projects as the three gorges dam and their ambitious nuclear reactor construction program.
The only reason they arn't crashing and burning is because of the superior technology available to them and some nifty economical foot work that we cannot simulate in E20.

You also must remember that our rules are heavily simplified for ease of play.
China now in RL is complicated, very complicated.

EDIT: What Cylea said too.

Yeah , but that is because China in RL is not only heavily propped up by subsidies from the governemnt and from outside investors, but pollution is begining to take a very heavy toll (lots of deaths, lung related diseases are a big killer) and is starting to slow their growth down.
This is apart of the reason why they are investing in such huge projects as the three gorges dam and their ambitious nuclear reactor construction program.
The only reason they arn't crashing and burning is because of the superior technology available to them and some nifty economical foot work that we cannot simulate in E20.

You also must remember that our rules are heavily simplified for ease of play.
China now in RL is complicated, very complicated.

EDIT: What Cylea said too.

So if I turn Pakistan into a state run by such wonderful programs as the Great Leap Forward and having an iron-fist in the development of my nation, killing off nearly 100 million of my population, I can retain my normal growth?

Which leads me to another point; would this stuff have the same affect on command economies?

So if I turn Pakistan into a state run by such wonderful programs as the Great Leap Forward and having an iron-fist in the development of my nation, killing off nearly 100 million of my population, I can retain my normal growth?

Not exactly......
But if you basically slave yourself in making things for the americans and supplying them with loans coupled with a socialist goverment that won't let the american corporations take your industry over then you probably might have a chance when the realize they owe you everything but their souls and start getting loans off other people to pay you back.
Like I said RL China is complicated and our rules are simple. We can't replicate the conditions that are taking place.

It's probably a good thing that China industrialized early in this RP otherwise we wouldn't knwo what to to with it later on when it explodes.


EDIT: As for command economies I would think it affects it less and that is probably part of the reason how China is staying afloat, but I really don't know.

Not exactly......
But if you basically slave yourself in making things for the americans and supplying them with loans coupled with a socialist goverment that won't let the american corporations take your industry over then you probably might have a chance when the realize they owe you everything but their souls and start getting loans off other people to pay you back.
Like I said RL China is complicated and our rules are simple. We can't replicate the conditions that are taking place.

It's probably a good thing that China industrialized early in this RP otherwise we wouldn't knwo what to to with it later on when it explodes.


EDIT: As for command economies I would think it affects it less and that is probably part of the reason how China is staying afloat, but I really don't know.

So in other words, I'm fucked :(

So in other words, I'm fucked :(
In the short term yes, but once you get to 7.5 and either Sharina or I research pollution reduction for everybody you get 2% growth.

Then you can start building nuclear powerplants and selling off all your coal and natural gas.
Couple that with turning excess food production over to ethanol and you can start selling that as well.
This coupled with little bonuses like those from improved communiations satellites (5 free commerce points) and the revenue from the Kra canal, will start you on a slow but steady road forward.

So in the long term no

In the short term yes, but once you get to 7.5 and either Sharina or I research pollution reduction for everybody you get 2% growth.

Then you can start building nuclear powerplants and selling off all your coal and natural gas.
Couple that with turning excess food production over to ethanol and you can start selling that as well.
This coupled with little bonuses like those from improved communiations satellites (5 free commerce points) and the revenue from the Kra canal, will start you on a slow but steady road forward.

So in the long term no

I still won't be able to reach tech level 8 'till 1990 (it was originally going to be somewhere closer to '75, or '80, since I'd be able to afford Level III Social spending in 1960, but since I probably won't be able to afford it till somewhere around 1975, coupled with the fact it will take forever for me to reach 75% of my potential growth...)

...and the revenue from the Kra canal...

Wait, we built the Kra Canal already?

Wait, we built the Kra Canal already?
No... but is only a matter of time, Im sure we can find 40 points somewhere.

an interesting paradox to be sure. Likely because its growth is not negative. Whatever the negative pollution percentage is is overwhelmed by the massive growth. That means pollution doesnt affect population.

yet

read the book "Collapse" by the same author as "Gold, Germs and Steel"

an estimate of a cost of 14% of China's GDP is lost to environmental effects like air pollution, contimination, erosion, dust storms etc

But if you basically slave yourself in making things for the americans and supplying them with loans coupled with a socialist goverment that won't let the american corporations take your industry over then you probably might have a chance when the realize they owe you everything but their souls and start getting loans off other people to pay you back.


If all of those corporations even had souls i'm sure they would consider selling those too...

you know, maybe if Pakistan was a little nicer to people you could get some foriegn aid to build industrial centers and such not :rolleyes:

So if I turn Pakistan into a state run by such wonderful programs as the Great Leap Forward and having an iron-fist in the development of my nation, killing off nearly 100 million of my population, I can retain my normal growth?

Which leads me to another point; would this stuff have the same affect on command economies?

the costs are hidden, but real...look what happened to the former Soviet Union

yet

read the book "Collapse" by the same author as "Gold, Germs and Steel"

an estimate of a cost of 14% of China's GDP is lost to environmental effects like air pollution, contimination, erosion, dust storms etc

one of these days i'll get around to reading those two. Havent the time yet with all these exams.

And in no way was i saying the china situation will stay that way. I was just explaining what may be happening right now.

the costs are hidden, but real...look what happened to the former Soviet Union

The Soviet Union only collapsed because of Glasnost and Perestroika. If Gorbachev had kept an iron-grip on the S.U., we'd still be in the Cold War today. It was his reforms that brought down the U.S.S.R.

If all of those corporations even had souls i'm sure they would consider selling those too...

you know, maybe if Pakistan was a little nicer to people you could get some foriegn aid to build industrial centers and such not :rolleyes:

I'd rather not have other people give me aid. It makes me look weak, it makes me have to pay someone back eventually, and it is the equivalent of me selling my soul to the devil.

Also, I'm perfectly nice to anyone who isn't purposely trying to piss me off :)

The Soviet Union only collapsed because of Glasnost and Perestroika. If Gorbachev had kept an iron-grip on the S.U., we'd still be in the Cold War today. It was his reforms that brought down the U.S.S.R.

no way. the union was bankrupt thanks to star wars and other defense programs. The whole house of cards was on the way down--gorbachev only let it happen peacefully.

I'd rather not have other people give me aid. It makes me look weak, it makes me have to pay someone back eventually, and it is the equivalent of me selling my soul to the devil.

Also, I'm perfectly nice to anyone who isn't purposely trying to piss me off

touche

Suggestion for an addition to the embargo rules:

Reasoning and Background:

Nations who are neighbours that share a land border have fuzzy areas of economical production were goods and products cross the border both ways. This is all well and good, but when hostilities between two neighbouring nations flare up and/ or the borders are closed this can no longer happen and the border industry that once depended on co-operation from both sides ceases to exsist and so a small amount of domestic produstion is lost on both sides.

Gameplay

In game terms this means that if the borders* between two neighbouring counties are closed for whatever reason both nations have between 1 to 3** production centres damaged.
If the Border re-opens within two years, and the production centres on both sides have not already been repaired through paying points, they are automatically repaired for free. After this two year period however they are damaged permanently and must be repaired by paying 12 points.

*(This can be direct land border or over small straits of water such as the english channel)

**(The exact amount is dealt with on a case by case basis decided by conflict or economic moderators. Factors considered are the population, economic power and tech level)


What do you think, good?



Suggestion for a major economic addition involving food:

Reasoning and Background:
Since the new energy rules are being planned out I think it would be a good idea to introduce rules for food production so we can have a mechanic for man made faminine and food aid to poor countries.

Gameplay

All nations produce a number of food points which are used to feed you population. Depending on the tech level of you nation one food point feeds a different number of people.

At tech levels 1-6 one food point feeds ten million people
At tech level 7 one food point feeds seven and a half million people
At tech levels 8+ one food point feeds five million people

The number of food points your nation produces is at first decided by the moderators but afterwards can be modified. Food production can be increased by paying subsidies to help farmers, this will stimulate production, 18 points = +1 food point. There is however only a certian amount of food that each nation can produce from it's land and so each nation has an individual cap of food that it can produce which is decide by the moderator*. This cap can be increased by 60% by researching mass mechanized farming techniques at tech level 8 for 30 points over 5 years.

* (This cap is based on factors such as land area, climate, population and to a lesser degree industrialization)

At tech level 7.5 Ethanol fuel sources can be researched and some of your food production can be turned over to produce crops for ethanol production and so produce ethanol energy points which can be used to fuel commerce and military units.
6 points + ethanol fuel research can convert one food point to a ethanol fuel point.
Ethanol production is counted under the national food production cap.

Food can be traded and given as aid to other countries that do not produce enough to feed themselves. The base price of a food point is 1 point per 2 food points.


If a nation does not produce enough food to feed it's population it must get additional food through trade or aid otherwise it will suffer growth loss.

-1 growth for 5-25% of people without food
-2 growth for 26-50% of people without food
-3 growth for 51-80% of people without food
-4 growth for 80%+ of people without food


There is also a cumulative -1 negative growth for every year after the first for which people go without food.
If people are without food for more than three consecutive years you begin to lose population.


I could forsee these rules being introduced alongside the new energy rules in 1960.


Hope it isn't too complicated but I think these will add much more depth to the game.


not bad, however, remember that the US is the largest exporter of food in the world, followed by Australia, Canada, Argentina and potentially the Ukraine, France and Vietnam are in there as well (in no particular order). Sigh, I suppose I could look up everyones food production though. (chuckle). It will take a couple of days.

A simple climate effect is to use the El Nino cycle of 10 years. But that requires somebody to keep rigorous track of that. I suggest we ignore climate for now.

Unless everyone feels like dealing with global warming about 20 years before it actually occured (figure about 2020 based on the level of industrialization we are at).

no way. the union was bankrupt thanks to star wars and other defense programs. The whole house of cards was on the way down--gorbachev only let it happen peacefully.

Perestroika made the soviet economy go from Stagnation to Deterioration. According to Wikipedia (not the most accurate of sources, I know, but it's not like I have a whole wide variety on Soviet union books at my finger tips. At least, none from after 1976 :p):

Gorbachev's new system bore the characteristics of neither central planning nor a market economy. Instead, the Soviet economy went from stagnation to deterioration. At the end of 1991, when the union officially dissolved, the national economy was in a virtual tailspin. In 1991 Soviet GDP had declined by 17 percent and was declining at an accelerating rate. Overt inflation was becoming a major problem. Between 1990 and 1991, retail prices in the Soviet Union increased 140 percent.

Under these conditions, the general quality of life for Soviet consumers deteriorated. Consumers traditionally faced shortages of durable goods, but under Gorbachev, food, clothes, and other basic necessities were in short supply. Fueled by the liberalized atmosphere of Gorbachev's glasnost and by the general improvement in information access in the late 1980s, public dissatisfaction with economic conditions was much more overt than ever before in the Soviet period. The foreign-trade sector of the Soviet economy also showed signs of deterioration. The total Soviet hard-currency debt increased appreciably, and the Soviet Union, which had established an impeccable record for debt repayment in earlier decades, had accumulated sizable arrears by 1990. It did free up the arts and social sciences in the region and enabled formerly banned literature and films to be eviscerated to a degree, with filmmakers like Sergei Parajanov now out of prison.

In sum, the Soviet Union left a legacy of economic inefficiency and deterioration to the fifteen constituent republics after its breakup in December 1991. Arguably, the shortcomings of the Gorbachev reforms had contributed to the economic decline and eventual destruction of the Soviet Union, leaving Russia and the other successor states to pick up the pieces and to try to mold market economies. At the same time, the Gorbachev programs did start Russia on the precarious road to full-scale economic reform.

The Soviet Union only collapsed because of Glasnost and Perestroika. If Gorbachev had kept an iron-grip on the S.U., we'd still be in the Cold War today. It was his reforms that brought down the U.S.S.R.

The Soviet Union was forced to import food every year beginning in the 1970s in spite of having the Ukraine, one of the richest farmlands (as far as soil quality) in the world. It couldn't keep up with the arms race as tech level costs (the cost of upgrading those units) exceeded its capability to both maintain its military AND provide the level of social services needed to keep things going.

The Cold War is still being studied, and the opinions vary, but Glastnost didn't bring down the Soviet Union, it merely kept its collapse from dragging the rest of the world with it. In the bad old days of the early 1980s, a LOT of people were scared shitless that one big famine and the Soviets were going to invade Western Europe just so they could grab enough food to feed their population.

Incidently, having studied the issue closely during the 1980s and since, the Wikepedia article has some serious flaws.

Be that as it may, its not important to the RP.

my course on Europe: 1945 to Present says differently. There is a really fantastic book called The Struggle for Europe by William Hitchcock that is a really easy read if you have the time. Unfortunately it is not as easy to quote quickly as wiki is. I suggest we move a discussion on that to chatzy.

my course on Europe: 1945 to Present says differently. There is a really fantastic book called The Struggle for Europe by William Hitchcock that is a really easy read if you have the time. Unfortunately it is not as easy to quote quickly as wiki is. I suggest we move a discussion on that to chatzy.

Indeed, monsieur.

Incidently, as far as food production goes. The Green Revolution which occured beginning in the 1950s, has a huge impact. Simple way to frame that is that food resources are increased (by an amount to be determined or a modifier) based on tech level (as Alto Sara suggests).

The UN can freely provide aid in that respect, allowing nations to obtain the needed agricultural tech as long as they are in good terms with the UN (one of its principal uses after all)

by the way, still need TGs telling me how many nuclear points you all have

24 points on a powerplant equals 1 nuclear point

So now that I've recovered from that kick to the face from Rugby practice, I've fixed me build.

Does this look right? Its not really THAAAAT hard.

Growth: (Not that it matters at this point. By the way I am in the Pan American Treaty... what

about the London Treaty Alliance?)
PAT: +1%
Level 5 Social Care: +1%
Pollution Penalty: 0%
Total Growth: 2%**

**Economy Maxed anyways.


1957

Population: 44 Million
Domestic Production: 44 Factories; 132 points.
Commerce: 60 Merchant Marine; 80pts. 2 National Airline; 4pts. 3 International Airlines; 6pts.
Tourism: 20pts

TOTAL: 252pts

7 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Bogota, Quito, Caracas, Cali, Panama)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 68.5p

1 x Specialized Infantry Division = 2pts (Elite Training)
6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-121) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
1 x E121 Aircraft = .5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

139.5 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (149.5pts)

Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
24 points for MIRVs (3/3)
15 - Fleet Carrier (3 / 3 years)
6 Points to Joint Space Program with the US
12 points for Electronics Industry (4/5)
24 points for eigth Nuclear Power Plant
24 points for ninth Nuclear Power Plant
8.5 to world bank
2 x Average Pilots - 4pts
2 x E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft - 6pts
4pts for... "stuff"
= 149.5


Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. (yeye)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.

(US Joint Venture plzkthx)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 7 soon 9)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1958, sooo close)


Energy Allocations:
140pts (Nuclear) --> 140/132
80pts (Natural Gas) --> 220/132 --> Export 4 Natural Gas Points
40pts (Hydro Electric) -->260/132 --> Reserve Energy
20pts (Coal) --> 280/132 --> Export 1 Coal Point

Oil Allocations (6 oil points = 120):
Merchant Shipping: 60 (3/6)
Military Upkeep: 40 (5/6)
Stockpile: 20 (6/6)

I just realized something that could be a major problem.

300 industry = -1% growth from pollution, correct?

By 1960, China's population will be 600 million (roughly), which raises China's productivity cap to 1800 points (3 points per 1 million people) at Tech Level 7.5. Then 1800 points divided by 300 (points that generates -1% growth). Thats just about -6% growth, which means I'll be forced to stay on permanent Government Cuts (not a big deal, as I'll have enough points for social services and such).

But the killer is, I will also have to suffer more minus growth due to energy generation (Coal or hydro). That'll push my growth to -8% or more, which means China will *NEVER* be able to reach 75% economic productivity because it'll lose factories through negative growth that even Government Cuts mode can't cover. This is because by 1970, China's population will be 650 - 700+ million, which pushes the 75% economic thereshold for Tech Level 8 even further away from me. So unless China genocides half of its population or something, it will never get to the 75% thereshold because the negative growth will overtake China's positive growth before it even reaches 50% thereshold or so.

75% of 1800 is, what, 1300 points (which means -4% growth from industry issues, along with another -2% or so from energy sources). Therefore, China won't be able to reach Tech Level 8 for 100 years or such as I will have to painstakingly build factories at 24 points each instead of natural growth. I'll need something like 12,000 points (Imagine 200 spare points annually to build factories, times 60 years... Aggggh) just to build the factories to reach the requirement for Tech level 8 (75% productivity) and watch helplessly while practically every other nation reaches Tech Level 10 or Tech Level 11 when China finally reaches Tech Level 8.

That is completely absurd, as this shouldn't prevent China from developing Tech Level 8, 9, 10, etc. technologies. China suddenly can't build micro-computers, mag-lev trains, lasers, CD players, etc. because it can't reach 75% economic productivity? Hell, even RL China hasn't reached 75% of its economic potential and its catching up to the RL USA in terms of technology.

If anything, pollution, enviromental issues, and such should *ACTUALLY* spur even more rapid technological growth as engineers and scientists scramble to develop good technologies to combat enviromental hazards and aim for a greener Earth.

Year 2050:

95% of the world = Tech Level 10.

US, UK, Germany = Tech Level 11.

China = Just reach Tech Level 8 despite having an economy magnitudes larger than the leading technological nations (US, UK, etc.) in the year 2050.

Totally absurd.

If anything, China should be *MORE* advanced than the US, UK, Germany, etc. in the area of enviromental technologies by 2050, as China faces far more dangers and issues with pollution than these other nations, therefore driving China to develop enviromental technologies at a frenzied pace whereas the US, UK, Germany, FNS, etc. doesn't need to considering they have minimial enviromental impact (growth-wise).

British Builds 1957
Standard market economy, 3% growth, plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth.
Production Centres:

UK: 104 as follows: 16 London, 14 Birmingham, 10 Coventry, 8 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds, 3 Derby, 3 Nottingham,

Colonial: 51 as follows: 10 Kenya, 8 Tanzania, 5 Carribean, 5 Uganda, 4 Rwanda, 4 Congo, 4 Gabon, 2 Equatorial Guinea, 4 Cameroon, 4 Central African Republic, 4 Chad,

TOTAL: 155 production centres

INCOME
Production Centres: 310 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign)), 3 from communications satellites
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 5 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German Nuclear Research: 6 points
From German government for ESA program: 24 points
From French government for ESA program: 10 points
Nuclear Points: 5 (Windscale, Cumbria; Hunterston, North Ayrshire; Sizewell, Suffolk; Trawsfynydd, Gwynedd, Wales; Chapelcross, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland)

TOTAL: 415

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 65
level 4 social services for UK (52m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (80m): 40
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance for production)
6 points for super nuclear weapons research (year 2 of 10)
24 points to continue MIRV missile program (48/72 complete)
12 points for space research (Heavy lift rockets) (24/24 complete)
UK Civil Defence 5 points
UK National Air Defence RADAR network 5 points
35 points to maintain missiles (150 ICBMs, 100 large ICBMs, 240 IRBMs)

Extraordinary Expenditure:
5 points for tech 7.5 electronics research (year 5/5)
Manned Gemini space launches 3 attempts = 15 points
One Handpicked airborne battalion= 2 points
One Avro Arrow Unit = 3 points

Royal Navy modernisation Program
2 Nuclear Powered heavy carrier groups, 1 year build time remains
3 Nuclear Powered fleet carrier groups, jet capable, 1 year build time remains
12 Nuclear Powered Cruisers, 4 heavy missile, 4 light missile, 4 AA, (total cost 200 points, 200 spent so far, all started at the same time and so none will be finished until entire points cost paid).

UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK useage only)

Early Warning Satellite Network 6 points
Improved Communications Satellite Network 12 points
Improved Spy Satellite Network 6 points

UK Atomic Energy Authority
2 nuclear power stations - 48 points. (Hinkley Point, Somerset; Bradwell, Essex)

Total: 415


I'll post my NPCs later due to time constraints (bank holiday monday requires a National Trust visit!) and the fact that there are so many of them now (decolonisation program).

I just realized something that could be a major problem.

300 industry = -1% growth from pollution, correct?

By 1960, China's population will be 600 million (roughly), which raises China's productivity cap to 1800 points (3 points per 1 million people) at Tech Level 7.5. Then 1800 points divided by 300 (points that generates -1% growth). Thats just about -6% growth, which means I'll be forced to stay on permanent Government Cuts (not a big deal, as I'll have enough points for social services and such).

But the killer is, I will also have to suffer more minus growth due to energy generation (Coal or hydro). That'll push my growth to -8% or more, which means China will *NEVER* be able to reach 75% economic productivity because it'll lose factories through negative growth that even Government Cuts mode can't cover. This is because by 1970, China's population will be 650 - 700+ million, which pushes the 75% economic thereshold for Tech Level 8 even further away from me. So unless China genocides half of its population or something, it will never get to the 75% thereshold because the negative growth will overtake China's positive growth before it even reaches 50% thereshold or so.

75% of 1800 is, what, 1300 points (which means -4% growth from industry issues, along with another -2% or so from energy sources). Therefore, China won't be able to reach Tech Level 8 for 100 years or such as I will have to painstakingly build factories at 24 points each instead of natural growth. I'll need something like 12,000 points (Imagine 200 spare points annually to build factories, times 60 years... Aggggh) just to build the factories to reach the requirement for Tech level 8 (75% productivity) and watch helplessly while practically every other nation reaches Tech Level 10 or Tech Level 11 when China finally reaches Tech Level 8.

That is completely absurd, as this shouldn't prevent China from developing Tech Level 8, 9, 10, etc. technologies. China suddenly can't build micro-computers, mag-lev trains, lasers, CD players, etc. because it can't reach 75% economic productivity? Hell, even RL China hasn't reached 75% of its economic potential and its catching up to the RL USA in terms of technology.

If anything, pollution, enviromental issues, and such should *ACTUALLY* spur even more rapid technological growth as engineers and scientists scramble to develop good technologies to combat enviromental hazards and aim for a greener Earth.



If anything, China should be *MORE* advanced than the US, UK, Germany, etc. in the area of enviromental technologies by 2050, as China faces far more dangers and issues with pollution than these other nations, therefore driving China to develop enviromental technologies at a frenzied pace whereas the US, UK, Germany, FNS, etc. doesn't need to considering they have minimial enviromental impact (growth-wise).

Dude, I agree with all the points China has made, and have come to an assumption; the pollution system is fine and what-not for the smaller countries, but for the 400 million + population of Pakistan and the 500 million + population of China it is horribly unbalanced. Since we're so dense and have huuuuuugggeee populations, it's going to be damn near impossible for us to advance. Hell, India in RL has like 8% growth, a bit behind China. How can the system represent the Asian Tiger economies and their ilk, if we're going to be limited to negative growth forever?

Dude, I agree with all the points China has made, and have come to an assumption; the pollution system is fine and what-not for the smaller countries, but for the 400 million + population of Pakistan and the 500 million + population of China it is horribly unbalanced. Since we're so dense and have huuuuuugggeee populations, it's going to be damn near impossible for us to advance. Hell, India in RL has like 8% growth, a bit behind China. How can the system represent the Asian Tiger economies and their ilk, if we're going to be limited to negative growth forever?

Sharina and I had discussed having a cap of -1% for population, primarily for play balance. This can be adjusted once tech level 7.5 is reached and the points are spent over 6 years for pollution control measures.

The amount of ecological and environmental damage that China and India are inflicting on themselves for this growth is rather staggering however. We simply don't know what the actual REAL cost of this growth will be.

But for game purposes:
-1% growth if population density if 101 or more
plus the modifiers for heavy use of coal and hydroelectric power.

If anything, China should be *MORE* advanced than the US, UK, Germany, etc. in the area of enviromental technologies by 2050, as China faces far more dangers and issues with pollution than these other nations, therefore driving China to develop enviromental technologies at a frenzied pace whereas the US, UK, Germany, FNS, etc. doesn't need to considering they have minimial enviromental impact (growth-wise).

Its unlikely China will reach tech level 8 before the US will or tech level 8.5 (2000 level in real life) or tech level 9 (2020) simply because with its higher productivity compared to population the US and other nations are more likely to reach the 75% or better figure before China will.

Tech level 9 is theoritical by the way, assumes Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles, fusion reactors, interplanetary spacecraft, deep ocean sea floor mining etc. We aren't there yet in the real world, so its necessarily vague.

Tech level 10 and 11, well, thats definitely science fiction territory and we will need to have very firm rules on that when the time comes.

Sharina and I had discussed having a cap of -1% for population, primarily for play balance. This can be adjusted once tech level 7.5 is reached and the points are spent over 6 years for pollution control measures.

The amount of ecological and environmental damage that China and India are inflicting on themselves for this growth is rather staggering however. We simply don't know what the actual REAL cost of this growth will be.

But for game purposes:
-1% growth if population density if 101 or more
plus the modifiers for heavy use of coal and hydroelectric power.

A cap of -1% for population is much better. Grazie. Granted, I still have like -2% (pretty much all my power is coal), but that's much better than the like -4% I'd have before.

Its unlikely China will reach tech level 8 before the US will or tech level 8.5 (2000 level in real life) or tech level 9 (2020) simply because with its higher productivity compared to population the US and other nations are more likely to reach the 75% or better figure before China will.

Tech level 9 is theoritical by the way, assumes Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles, fusion reactors, interplanetary spacecraft, deep ocean sea floor mining etc. We aren't there yet in the real world, so its necessarily vague.

Tech level 10 and 11, well, thats definitely science fiction territory and we will need to have very firm rules on that when the time comes.

I think we'll reach tech level 9 earlier in E20 than in RL. I'm guessing somewhere around the 2000 mark...


Also, I just realised something, E20 has been around for about a year now (taking into account the 5 year jump). That's a big achievment :D

Its unlikely China will reach tech level 8 before the US will or tech level 8.5 (2000 level in real life) or tech level 9 (2020) simply because with its higher productivity compared to population the US and other nations are more likely to reach the 75% or better figure before China will.

Tech level 9 is theoritical by the way, assumes Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles, fusion reactors, interplanetary spacecraft, deep ocean sea floor mining etc. We aren't there yet in the real world, so its necessarily vague.

Tech level 10 and 11, well, thats definitely science fiction territory and we will need to have very firm rules on that when the time comes.

Please allow me to clarify, GB.

If we use the current pollution rules with negative growth for every 300 - 450 factories, China will *NEVER* be able to reach 75% productivity to advance to Tech Level 8. This is because China will be *LOCKED* in negative growth forever.

Look at it this way...

Year 1960.

China = 600 million population, thus 1800 points maximum cap. 1300 factories = 75% productivity cap needed to advance to Tech Level 8.

China won't be able to reach 1300 factories until 1970 or so. *BUT*....

Year 1970.

China = 700 million population, thus 2100 points maximum cap. 75% cap goes up to 1500 factories.

At this point, if China has 1200 factories or so, thats -4% natural growth from factories alone. Then tack on another -1% growth from population pollution. Now factor in all the coal, hydro, etc. to power 1200 factories, which tacks several more % worth of negative growth. Now we're looking at anywhere between -8% to as much as -10% growth. A permanent Government Cuts PLUS the +1% SCT economic bonus will give me +6%. That is not enough to offset the negative growth.

We're now looking at a net negative growth of 2% to 4%, which means China will NEVER be able to go past 1200 factories or so, therefore *NEVER* being able to reach the necessary 75% productivity cap to advance to the next tech level.

Another example...

Year 1980. China's population = 800 million.

Max cap = 2400 points.
75% cap needed for Tech Level 8 = 1800 points.

China negatively grows down to 1100 industry.

Year 1990: China's population = 900 million.

Max cap = 2700 points.
75% cap needed for Tech Level 8 = 2000 points.

China squeaks back up to 1200 - 1300 industry (then back down to 1100 industry by year 2000 because of pollution negative growth) Then the cycle repeats itself for the next 100, 500, 1000 years.

Hence, China will be stuck *PERMANENTLY* at Tech Level 7.5 while the rest of the world will be hitting Tech Level 9, 10, 11, and so on.

That is extremely stupid and impractical due to several reasons.

1. Not being able to pass 75% economic productivity because of game mechanics should not prevent China from developing Tech Level 8 technologies, projects, devices, machinery, etc. China should still be able to develop lasers, chobham armor, space vessels, efficient enviromental controls (to lessen the pollution preventing China from advancing to Tech Level 8 in the first place), Internet, personal computers, CD players, microwaves, etc.

2. China should be able to become more advanced in enviromental and pollution controls than the US, UK, Germany, etc. while staying at technological parity with them in all other areas like commerce, military, economy, etc. This is because China has far more "need" and "demand" to develop efficient pollution technologies than the US, UK, etc. mainly due to the fact that China will have easily 3 to 4 times more serious pollution issues than the US, UK, etc.

3. Technological development is directly linked to the necessity for it. For instance, people in mountainous areas are forced to develop more advanced farming technologies than people living in flat lands due to the more extreme demands of mountain farming than plains / grassland farming. Another example is an island nation (UK, Philippines, Japan, etc.) is forced to research and develop more advanced sea-based technologies like fishing, naval military, ship design, beach protection, coastal urbanization, etc. than land-locked nations or nations with extreme amounts of land like US, Canada, and Russia.

--------------------------------

So if this keeps up...

By year 2100, virtually every nation (yes, even backwards African nations like Congo or Tanzania) on Earth will have laser guns, spaceships, robots, cure-for-cancer medicines, etc. while China is stuck with the same technologies for over 140 years (tech level 7.5 stuff). *NOW* that's unrealistic, given China's efforts to catch up with the rest of the world, and a much larger economy (and consquently far more capital to invest in technological and domestic advancement than these African nations and even European nations).

By Year 3000 the problem will still be the same- China being stuck at Tech Level 7.5 and unable to do anything of importance because of static / negative growth while everybody else colonizes half the galaxy and enjoying Tech Level 20+.

See my point?

By Year 3000 the problem will still be the same- China being stuck at Tech Level 7.5 and unable to do anything of importance because of static / negative growth while everybody else colonizes half the galaxy and enjoying Tech Level 20+.


See my point?

Dude, the only way we reach the year 3000 is if we're playing this game 20 years from now :D

Of course, if we were able to keep this game going for 20 years, I think we'd win a prize or something. Or perhaps we'd create the greatest internet game in the history of humanity... O_o

Please allow me to clarify, GB.

If we use the current pollution rules with negative growth for every 300 - 450 factories, China will *NEVER* be able to reach 75% productivity to advance to Tech Level 8. This is because China will be *LOCKED* in negative growth forever.


That is assuming the same model will be used. I am planning to change things a little once several nations reach Tech Level 8.

At that point, the Post Industrial age is reached, and clearly the real world model indicates the way things progress changes as well. So the concerns about the Asian Tigers, India and China will be addressed at that time.

As soon as I figure out a way to do it.

The Information Age (Post Industrial Age) is a HUGE change from the Industrial Revolution, and advantages will come to nations with a large proportion of trained workers and high levels of education (so all of that social spending will pay off eventually). Although Industry is important, so are communications networks etc. As is commerce, transportation systems, space technology etc.

How to simulate this in the RP is the troublesome part, and I am thinking about it.

That is assuming the same model will be used. I am planning to change things a little once several nations reach Tech Level 8.

At that point, the Post Industrial age is reached, and clearly the real world model indicates the way things progress changes as well. So the concerns about the Asian Tigers, India and China will be addressed at that time.

As soon as I figure out a way to do it.

The Information Age (Post Industrial Age) is a HUGE change from the Industrial Revolution, and advantages will come to nations with a large proportion of trained workers and high levels of education (so all of that social spending will pay off eventually). Although Industry is important, so are communications networks etc. As is commerce, transportation systems, space technology etc.

How to simulate this in the RP is the troublesome part, and I am thinking about it.

YAAY!

This is where I get to shine. I have a large population that speaks English. Can you say "Tech-support"?

I just had an idea how to fix this whole problem.

Use percents instead of set number of factories to determine negative growth.

Here's what I propose (which should fix this "eternal Tech level 7.5" problem)

25% of maximum productivity = -1% growth
50% of maximum productivity = -2% growth
75% of maximum productivity = -3% growth
100% of maximum productivity = -4% growth

Basically for every 1/4 of maximum productivity you get -1% growth from pollution. Then "Pollution Controls" reduces this to -1% for every 1/3 of maximum productivity reached.

33% of maximum productivity = -1% growth
66% of maximum productivity = -2% growth
100% of maximum productivity = -3% growth

Then "Advanced Pollution Controls" (Tech level 8 or 9) will reduce this to 1/2 of maximum productivity.

50% of maximum productivity = -1% growth
100% of maximum productivity = -2% growth


I think this should work, as it will essentially remove the "Stuck at Tech Level 7.5 forever" problem.

Sharina, read the previous 10 posts...many of your concerns have been addressed or will be

Sharina, read the previous 10 posts...many of your concerns have been addressed or will be

I understand what points you are trying to make, GB.

However, I think if we used percents instead of set numbers like my proposal in my post prior to this, that will simplify quite a few things. Not only that, but we already use a "percent" factor in most of our economic stuff like social services, natural growth, airport and transportation projects, rural electrification, etc.

With my percent based pollution idea (adding 1% negative growth for every 25% of economic maximum reached) it will ensure balance, and serve as an incentive for nations not to go to war all the time.

Think about it for a minute- suppose a nation has reached maximum economic potential. They will break even with the negative growth if they employ peace-time spending and enjoy economic pact benefits. If they go to National Effort or War Time economy, their economies will shrink due to the excessive pollution generated (as their positive %'s shrink from 3% in peacetime mode to 1% or 2% during national effort / wartime).

Lets take a nation for example.

America = Maximum of 340 industry reached (100%). America experiences -4% natural growth from pollution (just like in RL, USA generates 1/3 - 1/4 of the world's pollution in RL).

USA goes to war for some reason.

USA converts to War-time, which is 1% growth plus 1% from economic pact for a 2% positive growth, but suffer -4% growth from pollution (which means net growth of -2%). This could be simulated as over-production of toxins used in weapons manufacture, a run-away military-industrial complex, wasted resources, hippies refusing to show up for work, anti-war protests shutting down businesses in major cities, etc. in addition to the usual issues of wartime production.


Conversely, if America were to convert to Government Cuts mode, it will gain 2% overall positive growth (5% from cuts mode and 1% from economic pact then minus 4% for pollution from industry). This could be simulated as domestic improvement, Americans working on their infrastructure, pollution control initatives, etc.

This example holds true for just about any nation that reached max production (UK, FNS, SU, Syria, etc.).


Thus, this could actually make nations and players seriously consider the more serious ramifications of warfare in the latter half of the 20th century with higher pollution from war production (war economy and its issues) as opposed to focusing more on their own infrastructure (government cuts mode).

Hope I'm making sense. I'm in one of these creative and thoughtful moods today.

OOC: I understand Sharina's points, I've had a backlog of factories since 1948 I think. However, I have had massive economic growth, with my population tripling, hitting TL 7, etc. I think the food rules make it more complicated than it needs to be (mods could decide famines, etc.) but I'm willing to go with it.

Also as much as I may later regret saying this, something that I don't think has been brought up yet is research costs at higher Tech Levels. As of tech 7, the average research costs 24 points, or moves at a rate of 24 points/year. As economies grow, these become smaller and smaller expenses compared to the total economy. (24 points for V-2 tech looked pretty scary when Syria had a total economy of 8 points, now the economy is in the 60's, and the US has over 100 points that they just get rid of, quite the pork barrel for the Senate)

Perhaps TL 7.5 techs should have a base cost of 36 points, or multiples (18, 72), increasing to 48 (24, 96) at level 8. Small nations (like myself) should have trouble researching these things, even with foreign aid. Look at Sadaam's issues getting nukes, even when the French and Russians gave him reactors. Even with Iran and Israel attacking Osirak (the Iranians didn't seriously damage it) he spent lots of time and money to have nothing to show for it. North Korea spends lots on military development, but then they have to send the whole population to the rice paddies beacause they're too poor to feed themselves.

I agree with Sharina It does seem a bit unfair that he will never be able to progress beyond tech level 7.5.

I think the pollution rates should be proportional so instead of every 300 production points making -1 growth, there should be a value based on the density of the production centres in your nation. This means big poor nations like China and pakistan will have less trouble.

So for every 500 production points per 10,000 sq Km or a production density of 0.05 there is -1% growth. (a production density of 0.1 would be -2% growth 0.15 would be -3% growth and so on.)

You can calcualte your nations production density by dividing the number of production centres you have by you nations land mass in thousands of sq Km (very important).

This means that China with a Land area of 10800 thousand sq km and 1800 production would have a production density of 0.16 and therefore rounding to the nearest five gives -3% growth.

This system I think would be fairer to the larger poor countries, however it is quite a bit more complicated than the orgional.

(All land area figures are from the CIA world factbook site)

I understand what points you are trying to make, GB.

However, I think if we used percents instead of set numbers like my proposal in my post prior to this, that will simplify quite a few things. Not only that, but we already use a "percent" factor in most of our economic stuff like social services, natural growth, airport and transportation projects, rural electrification, etc.

With my percent based pollution idea (adding 1% negative growth for every 25% of economic maximum reached) it will ensure balance, and serve as an incentive for nations not to go to war all the time.

Think about it for a minute- suppose a nation has reached maximum economic potential. They will break even with the negative growth if they employ peace-time spending and enjoy economic pact benefits. If they go to National Effort or War Time economy, their economies will shrink due to the excessive pollution generated (as their positive %'s shrink from 3% in peacetime mode to 1% or 2% during national effort / wartime).

Lets take a nation for example.

America = Maximum of 340 industry reached (100%). America experiences -4% natural growth from pollution (just like in RL, USA generates 1/3 - 1/4 of the world's pollution in RL).

USA goes to war for some reason.

USA converts to War-time, which is 1% growth plus 1% from economic pact for a 2% positive growth, but suffer -4% growth from pollution (which means net growth of -2%). This could be simulated as over-production of toxins used in weapons manufacture, a run-away military-industrial complex, wasted resources, hippies refusing to show up for work, anti-war protests shutting down businesses in major cities, etc. in addition to the usual issues of wartime production.


Conversely, if America were to convert to Government Cuts mode, it will gain 2% overall positive growth (5% from cuts mode and 1% from economic pact then minus 4% for pollution from industry). This could be simulated as domestic improvement, Americans working on their infrastructure, pollution control initatives, etc.

This example holds true for just about any nation that reached max production (UK, FNS, SU, Syria, etc.).


Thus, this could actually make nations and players seriously consider the more serious ramifications of warfare in the latter half of the 20th century with higher pollution from war production (war economy and its issues) as opposed to focusing more on their own infrastructure (government cuts mode).

Hope I'm making sense. I'm in one of these creative and thoughtful moods today.

thats already factored in. Pollution is not based on production centers, but on Domestic production, so the US 350 production centers (the 1957 figure) would generate 4200 domestic points during a total war (in theory, in reality, energy availability isn't enough to support nearly this amount). This would be -14% growth.

Its not the percentage of industry that triggers the pollution threshholds, but the sheer volume of toxic side effects and resource exploitation. Now we could get into land areas etc, but for play balance (so as to not penalize smaller countries in land area, like Belgium and Japan for example) this is an easier method. This also allows smaller nations to go to national effort in hopes of catching up or keeping up.

Your maximum in theory of production centers at this time is 700, which could generate 1400 domestic points (-4%). Consider just how much of an impact this would be. Thats an immense amount of resource exploitation and toxic side effects. Its more then all of North America put together or for that matter, more then Europe either. Add in your population density (-1%) and coal and hydroelectric use (figure -2%).

The impact on the Chinese landscape would be horrific. China isn't there now, and read up on the environmental costs China is having to deal with.

This is also a play balance tool, and also a real situation to factor in. It will figure prominently this century in real life as India and China become more and more like the US and Europe in production, energy use and economic activity. There is a very real question on whether the world can actually handle environmentallly China and India having economies like year 2000 Western Europe and North America.

Not to mention the entire issue of energy prodution needed to fuel that kind of economy.

Proposed Rule additions (amended)

Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Each energy point provides sufficient energy to fuel 20 points of production (not production centers, but actual production). Any energy source can fuel domestic production.

Commerce and Military forces can only be supported by oil points and each oil point provides 20 points of fuel (as above). Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, while commerce requires 1 point of fuel for each point of commerce.
So 1 oil point would support 40 points of commerce, tourism or military units (any combination) for example.

Energy point information will be provided this weekend. Please TG me and tell me exactly how many nuclear points you have (1 point for each 24 point nuclear power plant purchased to date as of 1956).

Importing energy-- you can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density
look at the nation that you own (if you own several real life nations, look at the one biggest in land area). Then reduce the figure by 40% if Asian, African or Latin American, 10% if European, Japan, North American or Russia.

if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is 101 or higher your pollution index is -1%

Energy pollution
For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

Economic pollution
For every 400 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 450 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 300 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0.
This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations with negative growth end up with 0 growth each year they have a negative pollution index. If that negative growth continues for 10 years, then the full effects of the negative growth begin to impact their economy (they start losing production centers). This will have nasty social consequences as well. In addition, their population will decrease by -1% a year for each year after the 10 year grace period is exceeded. After another 10 years, they suffer a massive catastrophic consequence. Population decreases by -20% all at once (50% chance, massive pandamics) or -2% a year for 10 years (50% chance, increased cancer rates etc)

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors that are downwind (generally this means east of you in Asia or west of you in Europe due to the vagaries of air currents). Your neighbors in other words get another -1% to their growth. They will generally dislike this.


Food points are still being researched

I'm thinking we shouldn't do food, thats just making it way to confusing and strict then it has to be.

British NPCs.

Gambia
Pop: 300,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), 4 points from 4 shipping units,
Spending: level 4 social .25 points; .25 points maintenance, .5 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 3 points to start and finish another, 1 point to start a unit of missile boats (1/3)
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to other African nations, 1 Commonwealth, 1 RoW.

Togo
Pop: 1.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa), 4 points from 4 shipping units
Spending: 0.75 points for level 4 social services, 0.75 points maintenance, .75 points to finish a unit of BAC lightnings (3/3), 3 points for a shipping unit, 1.75 points towards an armoured brigade (1.75/2)
Military: 2 inf div, 40 miss boats, 1 pilot
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa, 1 Commonwealth, 1 RoW

Ghana
Pop: 6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa), 3 points from 3 shipping units
Spending: level 4 social services 3 points, .5 points to maintain infantry division and garrison, 2.5 points to continue a shipping unit (2.75/3)
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa

Senegal
Pop: 3 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Dakar, 9 from 9 shipping units,
Spending: 1.5 points for level 4 social services, 1.5 points maintenance, 3 points to France in loan repayments (year 3 out of 15), .25 to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 4.75 towards a squadron of destroyers (4.75/5)
Military: 1 inf div, 1 miss boat, pilot, BAC Lightnings.
Shipping: 2 to UK, 3 to France, 2 to Africa, 2 to RoW.
Growth: 1

Sierra Leone
Pop: 2.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Freetown, 2 points from 2 shipping units.
Spending: Level 4 services 1 points, .25 maintenance. 1.75 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 1 point to start another (1/3)
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 RoW.

Northern Cyprus
Pop: 110,000
Tech: 6
Income 1 resource point (fishing)
Spending: 0 (actually 0.05, but negligible) points for level 4 social services, 1 point to finish a mountain infantry brigade (2/2)
Military: none
Growth: 0

Southern Cyprus
Pop: 430,000
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at Nicosia
Spending: 0.25 points on level 4 social services, 1.25 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 2.5 points to start one shipping unit (2.5/3)
Military: 1 mountain bde
Growth: 0
Shipping: 0

Yemen
Pop: 4.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at San’a, 3 shipping units
Spending: 2.5 points on level 4 social services, .5 maintenance, 3 points for a shipping unit, 1 point to start a unit of missile boats (1/3)
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 2 inf div
Growth: 0

Kuwait
Pop: 200,000
Tech: 6
Income: 4 oil points, 3 shipping units
Spending: 0.5 points on level 5 social services, .25 points maintenance, 0.75 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 3 points for a shipping unit, 1.5 points towards a unit of missile boats (1.5/3)
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 1 marine bde
Growth: 0

Oman (and Western Arabia, UAE)
Pop: 2.3 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres, 3 shipping units, 8 oil points
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, 1.5 points maintenance; 7 points to finish a light missile cruiser (9/9), 3 points for a shipping unit (3/3), 1 point to start a mech div (1/4)
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 2 infantry divisions, 2 missile boat units, a destroyer squadron and a frigate flotilla, pilot, BAC lightning.
Growth: 0

Ceylon
Pop: 9.2 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 4.5 points on level 4 social services, 1.5 points to start a shipping unit (1.5/3)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Notes: Some nations are starting quite sizeable militaries now, as they have the points to spend. Though poor little Cylon isn't getting anywhere fast, though British funding will be granted next year for some shipping units when she becomes fully independent (Cylon is currently autonomous, but not yet independent).

I'm thinking we shouldn't do food, thats just making it way to confusing and strict then it has to be.

food rules would be a simple figure 1 food point (farming, fishing etc) would feed 20 million, and be based on what figures I can find.

Extra energy spent on fuel would naturally increase food production (as after all, it does).

Resource depletion is a consideration as well (overfishing anyone?)

So its a headache. I may wait a while on suggestions on that one.

Its simpler just to look at historical food production and know if your nation has to import food, it has to import food.

Only changes would be Russia and the Ukraine, which don't have the dead hand of Soviet Communism artificially reducing their food production. They, like Vietnam, would have been food exporters except for the artificial problems of communism collectivism in real life, and so should be here.

Proposed Rule additions (amended)

Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Each energy point provides sufficient energy to fuel 20 points of production (not production centers, but actual production). Any energy source can fuel domestic production.

Commerce and Military forces can only be supported by oil points and each oil point provides 20 points of fuel (as above). Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, while commerce requires 1 point of fuel for each point of commerce.
So 1 oil point would support 40 points of commerce, tourism or military units (any combination) for example.

Energy point information will be provided this weekend. Please TG me and tell me exactly how many nuclear points you have (1 point for each 24 point nuclear power plant purchased to date as of 1956).

Importing energy-- you can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density
look at the nation that you own (if you own several real life nations, look at the one biggest in land area). Then reduce the figure by 40% if Asian, African or Latin American, 10% if European, Japan, North American or Russia.

if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is 101 or higher your pollution index is -1%

Energy pollution
For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

Economic pollution
For every 400 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 450 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 300 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0.
This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations with negative growth end up with 0 growth each year they have a negative pollution index. If that negative growth continues for 10 years, then the full effects of the negative growth begin to impact their economy (they start losing production centers). This will have nasty social consequences as well. In addition, their population will decrease by -1% a year for each year after the 10 year grace period is exceeded. After another 10 years, they suffer a massive catastrophic consequence. Population decreases by -20% all at once (50% chance, massive pandamics) or -2% a year for 10 years (50% chance, increased cancer rates etc)

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors that are downwind (generally this means east of you in Asia or west of you in Europe due to the vagaries of air currents). Your neighbors in other words get another -1% to their growth. They will generally dislike this.


Food points are still being researched

just a reminder

food rules would be a simple figure 1 food point (farming, fishing etc) would feed 20 million, and be based on what figures I can find.

Extra energy spent on fuel would naturally increase food production (as after all, it does).

Resource depletion is a consideration as well (overfishing anyone?)

So its a headache. I may wait a while on suggestions on that one.

Its simpler just to look at historical food production and know if your nation has to import food, it has to import food.

Only changes would be Russia and the Ukraine, which don't have the dead hand of Soviet Communism artificially reducing their food production. They, like Vietnam, would have been food exporters except for the artificial problems of communism collectivism in real life, and so should be here.

Its going to be fun figuring out who has what thats for sure. I can definetely see the advantages to something like this, but it is definetely going to be a headache putting together and all.

If we are going to do it, then ya resource depletion should be considered.

UIR BUILDS 1956/1957

United Islamic Republic Builds 1956:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 13% (Rural Electrification Bonus) : 4 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 14 Production (total production centers:6) + 3 oil + 0 tourism+6 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 29 points

Population = 30 million

2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 4 points (Elite Trained)
3x Mujahideen Division (Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.25 (Elite Trained)
1x Armored Division (Teheran) 1 point (Elite Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 2 point (Elite Trained)
3x Expert Pilots .75 points

Spent: 10 points

Disbanded
1 Infantry Corps
2 Light Infantry Divisions

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (7.5 points)

Spent 17.5 points

Training:
-

Foreign Purchase and Support:
4.b Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Spent: 22 points

Domestic Investments:
Jet Terminal 2 Points (2nd and Final year)
5 Points National Airline

Total Spent: 29 points

Total Remaining: 0

United Islamic Republic Builds 1957:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 13% (Rural Electrification Bonus) : 4 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 14 Production (total production centers:6) + 3 oil + 3 tourism+10 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 36 points

Population = 30 million

2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 4 points (Elite Trained)
3x Mujahideen Division (Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.25 (Elite Trained)
1x Armored Division (Teheran) 1 point (Elite Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 2 point (Elite Trained)
3x Expert Pilots .75 points

Spent: 10 points

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (7.5 points)

Spent 17.5 points

Training:
1 HQ Unit 10 points

Spent: 27.5 points

Foreign Purchase and Support:
8.5 Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Spent: 36 points

Domestic Investments:
-

Total Spent: 36 points

Total Remaining: 0

US Budget 1957
Population 175 million tech level 7
Production centers 350 (maximum potential 350)
Shipping units 26
Oil 23 (this will become 0 beginning 1960, the US has no surplus oil but as the US has lots of coal to sell, it could increase if demand for coal is there)
Nuclear 12 (will go to 0 as only excess oil, coal and natural gas energy points are available for income)
Colonial 5
Tourist income 17
Airlines 10 (international and national)

Energy Resources (when 1960 comes)
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5
(Oil supplies sufficient to fuel 320 points of commerce, tourism and military spending, which is a shortfall of 1oil point, which the US gets from Mexico. The 700 domestic production points are amply provided for as the US has sufficient natural gas, nuclear and hydroelectrical energy to provide for 740, and that doesn’t even count coal which can supply another 360 if required).

Beginning 1960 Alaskan oil will provide enough cushion to replace diminishing oil production in the 48 states until 1970, when production fall further. The US reached its peak oil production in 1955 historically.

Pollution index(beginning 1960)
No population penalty, -1 for having over 400 domestic points but under 800, and no penalty for coal or hydroelectric as below the threshold. As US growth is 4% at peacetime spending, and population growth slows to 2% beginning 1960, this is well within the comfort zone for the US.

Trading Partners: Canada 4, Mexico 4, UK 3, Japan 3, Russia 3, Central America, Caribbean and Iceland 3, FNS 4, China 3, Africa 3, East Asia 3, Europe 4, USAE 1, Australasia 2

Income
700 domestic + 50 commerce +5 commerce (communications satellite bonus) + 23 oil + 12 Nuclear + 5 colonial + 17 tourism = 812 points

Military budget 264 points
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.ph...&postcount=757
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.ph...&postcount=759
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.ph...&postcount=760
special note: US regular ground troops are all now elite or handpicked

Level 4 social services (all US including colonial territories) 100 points
Civil Defense 25 points
Intelligence Agency maintenance 10 points
Nuclear energy program 6 points
Improved Communications satellite network maintenance 36 points (covers US, Brazil, Canada, Australasia, FNS, and South Africa)
Spy satellite maintenance 6 points
Early Warning satellite maintenance 6 points

Military and Civilian research
Solid Rocket Technology (12 points, year 3 of 4)
Improved Spy satellite technology 6 points (year 2 of 2)
Improved space plane (X15C) orbital flight technology 6 points (year 6 of 6)
Manned Orbital Laboratory research (12 points)
Nuclear weapons research 12 points (ongoing improvements, most US testing now underground)

Military builds
2 SSNs (Snook, Thresher) 10 points
4 SSBNs (Patrick Henry, Ethan Allen, Robert E. Lee, Sam Houston) 20 points
Chemical weapons production (very very covert) 6 points (sufficient for 1 batch of types 1 – 6 chemical warfare agents, placed in storage at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona)
Upgrade 150 Titan I missiles to Titan II (2nd Generation missiles) 8 points
Nuclear Heavy carrier project (USS Enterprise) 8 points (year 2 of 4)
15 Army and Army National Guard Flak groups 45 points
2 Army artillery groups (mechanized) 10 points
3 Special Forces handpicked battalions (2 SF groups, 1 ranger battalion) 3 points
2 F4C Phantom units 6 points
4 KC135 tanker units 12 points
6 Avro-McDonald Douglas Arrow (F110 in USAF service) 18 points

Foreign Aid and Domestic Programs
French Foreign Legion subsidy 2 points
electronics industry research (DARPA projects of various types)(year 5 of 5) 5 points
Joint US / Brazilian research into alternative fuels 6 points
4 nuclear power plants USA (96 points)
1 nuclear power plant Dominican Republic (24 points)
partial payment 1 nuclear power plant each Morocco and Liberia (12 points, year 1 of 2)

Space Launches
(space budget includes 10 points from Australia, 6 each Canada, South Africa and FNS for a total of 28 points, which the US adds another 22 points)
Unmanned Science satellite missions 10 points (10 missions)
4 Gemini missions (20 points)
4 X15C orbital space plane missions (20 points)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the countries below have benefited recently from substantial US (or home grown in the case of Canada) investment in rural electrification and transportation infrastructure and even the relatively low tech nations have reached tech level 6. Canada will reach tech level 7.5 the same time as the US.

Kingdom of Morocco 1957
Population 11 million tech level 6.5
Production center: Casablanca 2, Tangiers 2, plus national airline, international airline, 1 colonial point Mauritania
Budget: 8 domestic +1 colonial + 4 commerce + 1 tourism = 14 points
Trading partners: Spain 1, US 1, Algeria 1, Africa 1
Level 3 social spending: 3.3 points
Army: 4 mountain brigades (well trained), 2 mechanized divisions (well trained) (equipped by US) 4 points
Air Force: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 F105 fighter bomber unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots, 2.5 points
Navy: 1 frigate unit, 1 coastal patrol unit .5 points
Social services and economic assistance to Mauritania 3.7 points

Liberia (independent nation) 1957
Population: 800,000, tech level 6
Production center: Monrovia 2, 1 national airline
Budget: 3 points (reduced spending)
Level 4 social services: 1 point
Military: 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, 1 light infantry division (well trained) .5 points, remaining budget spent on (1.25 points) spent on developing tourism

Philippines 1957
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 4 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
5 points to USAE space program (the Japanese aid is simply rolled into that)
remaining 1.2 points are being spent on improving tourism

Canada 1957
Population 15 million tech level 7
Production centers: Toronto 5, Thunder Bay 4, Montreal 2, Winnepeg 2, Vancouver 1, Halifax 1, oil center at Winnipeg, national air line, international airline, plus 10 shipping units,
Budget: 30 domestic + 1 oil + 20 commerce + 1.5 tourism = 52.5 points
Canada has reached its productivity limit and growth is keeping up with population growth (of 2%)
Trading partners: US 5, UK 5, Europe 5, East Asia 5
Level 4 Social Spending: 7 points
Civil Defense: 1.5 points
RCAF: 2 F101B all weather interceptors, 1 E121, 2 Hawker Hunter fighter bomber, 1 C130 transport unit, 1 Neptune maritime patrol unit, 1 KC135 tanker unit, 8 expert pilots, 7 points
Canadian Army: 2 elite airborne brigades, 1 elite mechanized division, 3 reserve mechanized divisions, 1 reserve HQ unit, 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot, 6.25 points
RCN: 1 frigate unit, 2 escort groups (corvettes), 1 submarine unit (5 snorkel submarines) 1.25 points
23 points subtotal
1957 purchases:
12 points to US to assist with Space effort
5 points on electronics industry
12 points toward nuclear power plant

Iceland (includes Greenland)
Population 150,000, tech level 6
No production, 3 resources (fishing)
level 5 social spending 1 point, excess spent on developing tourism
Iceland has no military, and depends on Canadian and US protection

Cuba 1957
Population 6 million tech level 6
Havana 3 production centers
Budget: 6 domestic + 1 tourism +
Level 4 social spending: 2 points, Civil Defense 1 point, Navy of 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, Army with 1 well trained parachute brigade .5 points, Air Force with 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot 1 point, (4.75 points total)
Remainder (1.25 points) being spent on improving tourist infrastructure
Cuba has decided to dispense with a large military, and primarily the Army spends its time doing disaster relief, while the Navy is essentially just a coast guard.

Central American nations 1957 (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras)
Population: 8 million, tech level 6
1 production center each Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador,
Budget: 8 points domestic +1 point tourism
Level 4 social spending: 3.6 points
Civil Defense: .72 points
Coast Guard: 2 Coastal Patrol groups .5 points
Air Force: 1 helicopter unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 2 expert pilots 2 points
The Central American nations have gotten rid of their militaries, retaining only a coast guard and air units to assist during time of disaster (hurricanes and earthquakes)

Mexico
Population: 35 million tech level 6.5
Production centers: Vera Cruz 2, Monterrey 3, Mexico City 3, Yucatan 3, Tampico 2, 2 oil points, 1 national airline
Budget: 13 domestic (reduced spending) + 2 commercial + 2 oil + 2 tourism = 16 points
level 3 social spending 11.5 points,
Civil Defense: 3.5 points
4 infantry corps 2 points
Coast Guard: 2 coastal patrol units .5 points
Air Force: 1 C82 transport unit, 1 F101B all weather interceptor unit, 2 expert pilots

Virgin Islands
Population: 50,000 tech level 6
1 international airline
budget: 1 point tourism
level 5 social services: .5 points
remainder spent on 2 coastal patrol units (.5 points)

Haiti
Population: 3 million, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 2 domestic points
Level 4 social spending: 1.5 points plus .25 points for 1 coastal patrol unit, .25 points for 1 C47 unit with average pilot

Dominican Republic
Population: 500,000, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 1 domestic points (cut spending) + 1 tourism +1 international airline = 3 points
Level 4 social spending: .25 points, coast guard of 2 patrol units .5 points, 2 light infantry divisions (well trained, both reserve units) 1 point, Civil defense: .12 points, remainder spent on purchasing nuclear power plants from US (which will be paid for in about 8 years but are built now)

South African Budget 1956
Population: 31,774,000
Income: 143
Production: 84 (42 production centers/64 maximum)
Commerce: 42 (27 shipping units, +5% from satellite communication network)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment: 4
Annual Growth: 3% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth, -1% from worldwide recession)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-13.25 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-9 points
Social Services (Level III)- 1.5 point (for Angola)
Continuing Research Grants-6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
Building Electronics Industry-5 points (Year 4 of 5)
2x Production Center-48 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-19 points (research 52% complete)
Improved Satellite Technology-12 points (for South African-built networks)
Spy Satellite Network-6 points
Improvement of Transporation Infastructure (Angola and colonies)-4 points (Year 1 of 3)
Improved Communications Satellite Network Research-12 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
29 points owed by Nigeria-to be paid back as able

Surplus
.25

Projected 1957 Income: 96 (44 production centers + 4 growth) + 42 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 151 total points

South African Budget 1957
Population: 32,529,000
Income: 151
Production: 96 (48 production centers/64 maximum)
Commerce: 42 (27 shipping units, +5% from satellite communication network)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment:
Annual Growth: 3% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth, -1% from worldwide recession)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-13.25 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-9 points
Social Services (Level III)- 1.5 point (for Angola)
Continuing Research Grants-6 points
Spy Satellite Network-6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
Building Electronics Industry-5 points (Year 5 of 5)
3x Production Center-72 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-3.25 points (research 58.8% complete)
Improvement of Transporation Infastructure (Angola and colonies)-4 points (Year 2 of 3)
Improved Communications Satellite Network-12 points
Improved Spy Satellite Research-12 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
29 points owed by Nigeria-to be paid back as able

Surplus
N/A

Projected 1958 Income: 126 (59 production centers + 4 growth) + 40 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 179 total points

Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
Blue signifies completion, Orange signifies in progress, Red signifies incomplete
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years.
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. (Year 1 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.*
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.

NB: Energy points and the like have not been included, but I'll begin adding those starting next year to practice.

Still need information on German, Bulgarian, Belgian, USAE nuclear power.

Energy Resources
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river)

This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

The Americas
Canada
Oil 5, Coal 4, Natural Gas 7, Hydroelectric 5
(Canada gets another 5 oil at tech level 8 for its oil sands which require that technology to economically extract)
USA
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5 (add 5 more oil once tech level 7.5 is reached representing Alaskan oil and the technology needed to extract it)(2 more hydroelectric possible)
Central America (includes Mexico)
Oil 7, Natural Gas 2, hydroelectric 1
Caribbean
Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 2
FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible), nuclear 9
Brazil
Natural gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (3 more possible), at tech level 7.5 will gain 4 oil points (deep drilling technology)
Dutch Caribbean
Oil 2, Natural Gas 1

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Oil 3 (Angola), Coal 4, Natural Gas 1 (Angola)
Nigeria
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
West Africa
Oil 1
East Africa and Belgian Congo have no energy resources (although some hydroelectric possibilities along with West Africa)

Middle East and North Africa
Algeria
Oil 2, Natural Gas 5
Libya
Oil 3, Natural Gas 5
Saudi Arabia
Oil 20, Natural Gas 4
Oman
Oil 4, Natural Gas 1
Kuwait
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5
Baghdad
Oil 1, Natural gas 1
Basra
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Kurdistan
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2, Hydroelectric 1
Turkey
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1
Central Asia
Oil 4, Natural Gas 6, Coal 3,
Kashgaria
Oil 1, Coal 1, Natural Gas 1
Armenia
Hydroelectric 1, Coal 1
Egypt
Hydroelectric 3
Jordan, Western Arabia, Yemen and Syria
No energy resources

Russia
Oil 10, Natural Gas 10 (both double at tech level 7.5 as technology for Arctic drilling becomes available), Coal 18, Hydroelectric 6, nuclear 5

(special note: North America and Russia hold 50% of the worlds Natural Gas and Coal reserves… geography can be unfair at times. Makes up for all that oil in the Mideast. Africa and South America were treated unkindly by geography in many respects, as was Europe and Australia)

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2, nuclear 1
Rumania
Oil 2, Coal 1, Natural Gas 10
Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1
Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 2
Germany
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 3, Natural Gas 2)
Czechslovakia
Coal 2
Balkans
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 1
Italy & Slovenia
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, Natural Gas 1
France
Hydroelectric 1, Nuclear 1
Burgundy
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Bulgaria
coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Iberia
Hydroelectric 1
Iceland
alternative energy (geothermal) 1
British Isles
Coal 5, hydroelectric 1 (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 5, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 5

Asia and Oceania
Indian Subcontinent
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1
Burma
Oil 1, Natural Gas 1
USAE
Hydroelectric 2, natural gas 1
Spratley Islands
At tech level 7.5 Oil 4, Natural Gas 4
Parisal Islands
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Ceylon
Hydroelectric 1
China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4, nuclear 3
Philippines
Natural Gas 1, hydroelectric 1
Korea
Coal 2, hydroelectric 2
Japan
Coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Indonesia
Oil 5, Natural Gas 10, Coal 4,
Malaysia and Brunei
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Australasia
Oil 1, Natural Gas 3, Coal 8

Proposed Rule additions (amended)

Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Each energy point provides sufficient energy to fuel 20 points of production (not production centers, but actual production). Any energy source can fuel domestic production.

Commerce and Military forces can only be supported by oil points and each oil point provides 20 points of fuel (as above). Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, while commerce requires 1 point of fuel for each point of commerce.
So 1 oil point would support 40 points of commerce, tourism or military units (any combination) for example.

Energy point information will be provided this weekend. Please TG me and tell me exactly how many nuclear points you have (1 point for each 24 point nuclear power plant purchased to date as of 1956).

Importing energy-- you can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density
look at the nation that you own (if you own several real life nations, look at the one biggest in land area). Then reduce the figure by 40% if Asian, African or Latin American, 10% if European, Japan, North American or Russia.

if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is 101 or higher your pollution index is -1%

Energy pollution
For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

Economic pollution
For every 400 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 450 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 300 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0.
This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations with negative growth end up with 0 growth each year they have a negative pollution index. If that negative growth continues for 10 years, then the full effects of the negative growth begin to impact their economy (they start losing production centers). This will have nasty social consequences as well. In addition, their population will decrease by -1% a year for each year after the 10 year grace period is exceeded. After another 10 years, they suffer a massive catastrophic consequence. Population decreases by -20% all at once (50% chance, massive pandamics) or -2% a year for 10 years (50% chance, increased cancer rates etc)

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors that are downwind (generally this means east of you in Asia or west of you in Europe due to the vagaries of air currents). Your neighbors in other words get another -1% to their growth. They will generally dislike this.


Food points are still being researched

GB, bold emphasis is mine.

I can live with these amended rules. I do however have a couple of questions though.

First, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 150 points of hydro or 75 points of coal? Do you mean 150 hydro points? China has 4, and USA has 5?

Second, you amended the pollution to -1% growth per 400 factories / production points, and with the pollution controls it goes up to 450? Shouldn't it be 500 or so? The original number was 300 (then 450 with improvements which was a 50% reduction in pollution).

Finally, I'm not sure about the "down-wind" factor. What about mountain ranges like the Himalayas, Urals, Alps, Rockies, etc? Wouldn't they absorb some of the pollution smog and such as mountains actually divert jet streams?

Once we iron these last few details out, I think we'll have a workable pollution system.


EDIT:

My #2 question was a little confusing. Allow me to clarify.

New pollution = 400 production points --> -1% growth
Improved pollution = 450 production points --> -1% growth

Shouldn't it be like this?

New pollution = 400 production points --> -1% growth
Improved pollution = 500 to 600 production points --> -1% growth (50% cut in pollution as per original 300 points up to 450 points)

GB, bold emphasis is mine.

I can live with these amended rules. I do however have a couple of questions though.

First, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 150 points of hydro or 75 points of coal? Do you mean 150 hydro points? China has 4, and USA has 5?

5 hydroelectric points would fuel 100 points of domestic production, while 10 would fuel 200 points of domestic production. Which would create a pollution problem (actually its an environmental issue, but the same thing applies). 6 coal points would fuel 120 points of domestic production, and you would have a pollution problem as its over the 75 point limit (add in another 3 points and you are in even more trouble). On the plus side, effective scrubbers show up at tech level 8 (making coal less environmentally harmful)


Second, you amended the pollution to -1% growth per 400 factories / production points, and with the pollution controls it goes up to 450? Shouldn't it be 500 or so? The original number was 300 (then 450 with improvements which was a 50% reduction in pollution).

yes the improved number should be higher, figure 500 for now (may change)

Finally, I'm not sure about the "down-wind" factor. What about mountain ranges like the Himalayas, Urals, Alps, Rockies, etc? Wouldn't they absorb some of the pollution smog and such as mountains actually divert jet streams?

Once we iron these last few details out, I think we'll have a workable pollution system.]

I look up climate information on high altitude winds (the jet stream), acid rain patterns, etc. No, they don't divert the jet stream (which is at around 25,000 - 40,000 feet depending on the season)

5 hydroelectric points would fuel 100 points of domestic production, while 10 would fuel 200 points of domestic production. Which would create a pollution problem (actually its an environmental issue, but the same thing applies). 6 coal points would fuel 120 points of domestic production, and you would have a pollution problem as its over the 75 point limit (add in another 3 points and you are in even more trouble). On the plus side, effective scrubbers show up at tech level 8 (making coal less environmentally harmful)

Thanks for clearing that up, GB. How should we go about expanding Hydro or coal production- like for instance if China wants to increase its 4 hydro power to maybe 10? Would we treat expansion of hydro points the same way we treat nuclear points, 24 points spent for each 1 hydro / coal point expansion?

By the way, I have a few links handy for these coal scrubbers (I provided them a few pages back, and I can post them again).

I look up climate information on high altitude winds (the jet stream), acid rain patterns, etc. No, they don't divert the jet stream (which is at around 25,000 - 40,000 feet depending on the season)

Ohh, I was just wondering as I know that mountains do influence weather patterns and climate. The Monsoon winds go south from the Himalayas into India instead of northeast into China (hence the Gobi desert). The Andes have rainforest on its east side and dry desert-like terrain on its west side in South America (I may be wrong though- I read that somewhere).

I know that winds blowing down from the Himalayas can go as far as Africa itself (therefore India's pollution should go southwest instead of northeast into China).

Thanks for clearing that up, GB. How should we go about expanding Hydro or coal production- like for instance if China wants to increase its 4 hydro power to maybe 10? Would we treat expansion of hydro points the same way we treat nuclear points, 24 points spent for each 1 hydro / coal point expansion?

By the way, I have a few links handy for these coal scrubbers (I provided them a few pages back, and I can post them again)

there is however an upper limit to how much hydroelectric power is available, as only so many dams can be built after all. By the way, the Three Gorges Project is a tech level 7.5 (because of the size) project. Its environmental effects are potentially very serious. Once upon a time the Americans and Canadians had a plan to divert the Artic Ocean rivers (in Canada) south as well.... another potential ecological disaster. The Russian dams diverting water from the Volga are drying up the Caspian Sea and other dams are inflicting serious damage to the Arctic shore of Siberia and have killed the Aral Sea.

Keep that kind of thing in mind.


Ohh, I was just wondering as I know that mountains do influence weather patterns and climate. The Monsoon winds go south from the Himalayas into India instead of northeast into China (hence the Gobi desert). The Andes have rainforest on its east side and dry desert-like terrain on its west side in South America (I may be wrong though- I read that somewhere).

I know that winds blowing down from the Himalayas can go as far as Africa itself (therefore India's pollution should go southwest instead of northeast into China).

Depends on the type of pollution. At tech level 7.5 the scrubbers just get the local heavy smoke, but not the lighter particles that cause acid rain. Those particles make it to the stratosphere by the way, and drift with the high altitude winds including the jet stream. Kind of like volcanic dust and nuclear fallout.

Scandic Union
Build 1957
Population-21 million
50 prod centers-
Kiel 5, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 4, Tallin 3, Murmansk 3
34 shipping units
5 airlines
1 Nuclear power plant-Northern Finland
126 points Prod centers(national effort), 50 points commerce, 10 points airlines, 2 points tourism, 1 nuclear-189 points


50 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
6 points-Nuke program(6/10)
5 points-intel agency
4 points-Lv 4 Chemical warfare(5/5)
5 points-electronic industry(5/5)
12 points- Gemini research
6 points-communications satelite network
24 points-MIRV's(24 left left)
6 points-Spy satelite network
1 points-space probe(Mars)
3 nuclear heavy missile cruisers-20 points(40 points left)
24 nuclear power plant
10 points-UIR
10 points-Turkey
10 points-rest of Turkic alliance
3 points-People of Petrograd


Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement-
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.(Done)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.(Done)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.(Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.(Done)
6. Electronics Industry (1958)



Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 3, Smyrnia 3, Izmir 3, Konya 3, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 27 shipping units=61 points+10 points Scandic Aid+1.5 last year
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
4 Saab Drakens,2 Saab Lansen 6 elite pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes,1 HQ 6 light infantry divisions (highly trained), 2 mech divisions.(Highly trained) 1 armored division-13.75

Purchase:55.5

4 points-airport
48 points-2 nuclear power plant(help provided by SU)
3.5 points-destroyer squad(1.5 left)




Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 4, Alma Ata 4, 1 national airline, 4 international airline, 1 aiport(Tashkent)=27 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps, 3 pilots, 2 IL10, 1 garrison unit, 1 Saab Lansen 3 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy:
6 points-2 Saab Draken



Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 shipping=12 points+6 Scandic points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
15 points-prod center(Done)


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 2 , Kashgar 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=10 points+4 Scandic points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
10 points-3 airlines(8 points left)


Ukrainian Budget 1957
Population: 37 million
Tech level: 7
1 Nuclear power plant(SU Built)-Kiev
Income (Normal): (40 prod centers)Stalino 7, Dneipopetrovsk 7, Kiev 7, Odessa 7, Kharkov 6, Sevastpool 6, 30 shipping units, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminal=139
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Maintenance: 30.25 points (1 HQ, 2 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 mech flak divisions, 6 elite armored divisions, 4 elite mech divisions 7 Saab Draken, 2 Saab Lansen, S1 Tracer, 10 expert pilot, 10 destroyers, 40 corvettes).

Spending:97.75 points to spend
5 points-electronics industry(2/5)
15 points-Nuclear power plant(Done)
3 points-ETU95
20 points-2 nuclear power heavy missile cruisers(20 left)
10 points-2 nuclear attack subs
24 points-prod center
20 points-Prod center(4 points left)




Polish Budget 1957
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
2 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)-Lodz, Krawkow
Production centers: (57 prod centers)Warsaw 8, Lodz 7, Krakow 7, Katowice 7, Brest-Litovsk 7, Lvov 7, Riga 7, Lublin 7,
30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals=183
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 36.5 points (1 HQ, 5 elite armored corps, 5 elite infantry corps, 6 elite mech divisions, 8 flak units, 7 Saab Draken, 4 Saab Lansen, 2 Tu16, 1 KC135, 14 elite pilots).

Spending: 133.5

4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-electronics industry(2/5)
17 points-Prod Center(Done)
3 points-1 ETU95
9 points-3 Saab Draken
16 points-4 elite pilots
10 points-2 destroyer sqaudrons
5 points-1 nuclear attack sub
48 points- 2 prod centers
16 points-prod center(8 left)

most likely the Ukranians and Poles are building Migs.... as Mig relocated to Warsaw post war

the Mig21 is a pretty decent aircraft and very suitable interceptor, while the Mig15, 17 and 19 can be made into decent ground attack aircraft.

there is however an upper limit to how much hydroelectric power is available, as only so many dams can be built after all. By the way, the Three Gorges Project is a tech level 7.5 (because of the size) project. Its environmental effects are potentially very serious. Once upon a time the Americans and Canadians had a plan to divert the Artic Ocean rivers (in Canada) south as well.... another potential ecological disaster. The Russian dams diverting water from the Volga are drying up the Caspian Sea and other dams are inflicting serious damage to the Arctic shore of Siberia and have killed the Aral Sea.

Keep that kind of thing in mind.

Thats why I don't plan on building Three Gorges Dam. I'm aiming for multiple small dams, probably 1/2 to 1/3 size of the Hoover Dam or Aswan Dam, or 1/10 the size of the Three Gorges Dam.

I figure I could minimize enviromental impact if I was to build 10 smaller dams for every Three Gorges Dam. Besides if one dam were to break, the damage can be, contained, localized, and minimized instead of catastrophic should a Three Gorges Dam break.

Besides multiple smaller dams = easier to build, and can be installed at more locations (like further up-river for instance) where large dams would be impossible or catastrophic to build at.

UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5

So this is my maximum production I can have, isn't it?

UIR BUILDS 1956/1957

United Islamic Republic Builds 1956:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 13% (Rural Electrification Bonus) : 4 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 14 Production (total production centers:6) + 3 oil + 0 tourism+6 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 29 points

Population = 30 million

2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 4 points (Elite Trained)
3x Mujahideen Division (Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.25 (Elite Trained)
1x Armored Division (Teheran) 1 point (Elite Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 2 point (Elite Trained)
3x Expert Pilots .75 points

Spent: 10 points

Disbanded
1 Infantry Corps
2 Light Infantry Divisions

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (7.5 points)

Spent 17.5 points

Training:
-

Foreign Purchase and Support:
4.5 Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Spent: 22 points

Domestic Investments:
Jet Terminal 2 Points (2nd and Final year)
5 Points National Airline
5 points to expand Oil Production (from Korea)

Total Spent: 29 points

Total Remaining: 0

United Islamic Republic Builds 1957:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 13% (Rural Electrification Bonus) : 4 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 14 Production (total production centers:6) + 5 oil + 3 tourism+10 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 38 points

Population = 30 million

2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 4 points (Elite Trained)
3x Mujahideen Division (Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.25 (Elite Trained)
1x Armored Division (Teheran) 1 point (Elite Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 2 point (Elite Trained)
3x Expert Pilots .75 points

Spent: 10 points

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (7.5 points)

Spent 17.5 points

Training:
1 HQ Unit 10 points
1 Armored Division 5 points

Spent: 32.5 points

Foreign Purchase and Support:
5.5 Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Spent: 38 points

Domestic Investments:
-

Total Spent: 38 points

Total Remaining: 0

Update, forget Oil Production Expansion (thanks Korea!)

So this is my maximum production I can have, isn't it?

best information available on peak production for Iran ... so yes at this time. There is the possibility of additional Natural Gas production, but that jury is out on that in real life.

For coal, oil and natural gas figures, there will not be an increase, unless new information becomes available over the course of the game on major discoveries (in real life).

Exceptions are the nations listed that will get an increase at tech level 7.5 because of improved technologies allowing for extraction of oil in arctic and deep continental shelf conditions (North Sea, Siberia, Alaska plus Canadian oil sands)

Hydroelectric is very dependent on major rivers that are not seasonal (which is rough on Australia, South Africa and a lot of Africa for example) or having major rivers at all (rough on the Middle Eastern nations).

Nuclear power does not have a limit to expansion. HOWEVER, each year a roll will be made to determine if a nuclear accident occurs, who has the accident and the severity. Higher tech plants are less prone to accidents then lower tech plants, so upgrading them will be desirable (and it costs 6 points to upgrade each nuclear point you have from tech 7 to tech 7.5 and then again at tech 8 and so on).

A severe nuclear accident is a bad thing.

Alternative energy sources will be discussed on a case by case basis, but nearly all of these require at least tech level 7.5, and many require tech level 8 or higher (they aren't very economical)

Nuclear power does not have a limit to expansion. HOWEVER, each year a roll will be made to determine if a nuclear accident occurs, who has the accident and the severity. Higher tech plants are less prone to accidents then lower tech plants, so upgrading them will be desirable (and it costs 6 points to upgrade each nuclear point you have from tech 7 to tech 7.5 and then again at tech 8 and so on).

A severe nuclear accident is a bad thing.

Alternative energy sources will be discussed on a case by case basis, but nearly all of these require at least tech level 7.5, and many require tech level 8 or higher (they aren't very economical)

So far we have the following as possible alternate energy sources other than nuclear and hydro power...

1. Ethanol
2. Wind Power
3. Solar Power

Is there any other particular alternative energy sources I've missed? Methane? Synthetic fuels (man-made coal and oil, similiar to man-made gold and man-made diamonds)?

Still need information on German, Bulgarian, Belgian, USAE nuclear power.

Energy Resources
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river)

This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

The Americas
Canada
Oil 5, Coal 4, Natural Gas 7, Hydroelectric 5
(Canada gets another 5 oil at tech level 8 for its oil sands which require that technology to economically extract)
USA
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5 (add 5 more oil once tech level 7.5 is reached representing Alaskan oil and the technology needed to extract it)(2 more hydroelectric possible)
Central America (includes Mexico)
Oil 7, Natural Gas 2, hydroelectric 1
Caribbean
Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 2
FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible), nuclear 9
Brazil
Natural gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (3 more possible), at tech level 7.5 will gain 4 oil points (deep drilling technology)
Dutch Caribbean
Oil 2, Natural Gas 1

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Oil 3 (Angola), Coal 4, Natural Gas 1 (Angola)
Nigeria
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
West Africa
Oil 1
East Africa and Belgian Congo have no energy resources (although some hydroelectric possibilities along with West Africa)

Middle East and North Africa
Algeria
Oil 2, Natural Gas 5
Libya
Oil 3, Natural Gas 5
Saudi Arabia
Oil 20, Natural Gas 4
Oman
Oil 4, Natural Gas 1
Kuwait
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5
Baghdad
Oil 1, Natural gas 1
Basra
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Kurdistan
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2, Hydroelectric 1
Turkey
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1
Central Asia
Oil 4, Natural Gas 6, Coal 3,
Kashgaria
Oil 1, Coal 1, Natural Gas 1
Armenia
Hydroelectric 1, Coal 1
Egypt
Hydroelectric 3
Jordan, Western Arabia, Yemen and Syria
No energy resources

Russia
Oil 10, Natural Gas 10 (both double at tech level 7.5 as technology for Arctic drilling becomes available), Coal 18, Hydroelectric 6, nuclear 5

(special note: North America and Russia hold 50% of the worlds Natural Gas and Coal reserves… geography can be unfair at times. Makes up for all that oil in the Mideast. Africa and South America were treated unkindly by geography in many respects, as was Europe and Australia)

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2, nuclear 1
Rumania
Oil 2, Coal 1, Natural Gas 10
Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 1
Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 2
Germany
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 3, Natural Gas 2), nuclear 4
Czechslovakia
Coal 2
Balkans
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 1
Italy & Slovenia
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, Natural Gas 1
France
Hydroelectric 1, Nuclear 1
Burgundy
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Bulgaria
coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Iberia
Hydroelectric 1
Iceland
alternative energy (geothermal) 1
British Isles
Coal 5, hydroelectric 1 (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 5, Natural Gas 5), nuclear 5

Asia and Oceania
Indian Subcontinent
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1
Burma
Oil 1, Natural Gas 1
USAE
Hydroelectric 2, natural gas 1
Spratley Islands
At tech level 7.5 Oil 4, Natural Gas 4
Parisal Islands
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Ceylon
Hydroelectric 1
China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4, nuclear 3
Philippines
Natural Gas 1, hydroelectric 1
Korea
Coal 2, hydroelectric 2
Japan
Coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Indonesia
Oil 5, Natural Gas 10, Coal 4,
Malaysia and Brunei
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Australasia
Oil 1, Natural Gas 3, Coal 8

up to date list.. still need some information from Germany, Bulgaria, Belgium

So far we have the following as possible alternate energy sources other than nuclear and hydro power...

1. Ethanol
2. Wind Power
3. Solar Power

Is there any other particular alternative energy sources I've missed? Methane? Synthetic fuels (man-made coal and oil, similiar to man-made gold and man-made diamonds)?

ethanol is tech level 7, with appropriate research, and should require 2 build points to produce 1 ethanol point (its not commercially viable to start with. This will change over time)

Wind power is tech level 7.5 technology, and maximum allowed is 1 point. At tech level 8, this can increase to 2 points and only available after spending 24 points on research and then 24 points for each wind power energy point (infrastructure)

Tidal and Solar power are tech level 8 technologies, and start very limited (see wind and ethanol). Oil production from oil sands is also tech level 8 (for an economical and cost effective process, and starts limited)

Fusion power and hydrogen fuel cells are tech level 9 technologies. Economical explotation of oil sands (larger yield) and oil shale (limited yield) is also tech level 9.

Converting coal points to oil points is possible at tech level 6. 3 Coal plus 12 build points can produce 1 oil point (its really inefficient and costly, which is why no one is doing it now. Germany did this during World War II)

Geothermal is only available in special circumstances. Iceland is rather unique, although potentially the US, FNS, Central American nations, Indonesia, Japan and Canada could get 1 or 2 points from this. However, except for Iceland, no one has to any commercial level (enough to justify an energy point). So for now, I suggest we wait until tech level 9 for anyone else to start using geothermal as energy.

methane simply isn't common enough to be a wind spread fuel.

methane simply isn't common enough to be a wind spread fuel.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but methane comes in considerable quantites in animal and human dung.

Consider the millions of cattle used for meat production, cows for milk production, and waste products (solid wastes) of millions of humans in cities. All that adds up to some considerable tonnage of methane in solid wastes.

What about offshore wind power? Tech level 8.5 or 9?

And as of January 1957, I have 4 nuclear power points (paid with 24 points each)

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but methane comes in considerable quantites in animal and human dung.

Consider the millions of cattle used for meat production, cows for milk production, and waste products (solid wastes) of millions of humans in cities. All that adds up to some considerable tonnage of methane in solid wastes.

its mostly expelled as air pollution (insert fart joke here) and is not exactly commercially accessable in a cost effective manner. Dung is far more valuable as fertilizer then as fuel in any case (unless you have no other source available)

Parthini']What about offshore wind power? Tech level 8.5 or 9?

And as of January 1957, I have 4 nuclear power points (paid with 24 points each)

probably tech 9 for commercially viable technology

Parthini']What about offshore wind power? Tech level 8.5 or 9?

And as of January 1957, I have 4 nuclear power points (paid with 24 points each)

I remember we're already starting to build sea wind turbines in RL (Tech level 8 to 8.5 I think?). I know we're building a 20 - 30 megawatt wind turbine in the ocean but forgot which country- Iceland? Scotland? Denmark? Or was it Norway or Sweden?

Here's some info on methane gas for energy I was talking about earlier.

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ebae071_80.html

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Methane_20Fuel_20Cell

http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=534&archive=1

-----------------------------------------

As for the wind turbine in oceans...

http://www.gepower.com/about/press/en/2003_press/061603.htm

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/publications/default/tech_papers/17th_congress/3_2_01.asp

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:132769685&ctrlInfo=Round19%3AMode19a%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=

It also depends on PC actions. For example, if Ted Kennedy gets elected President in this history, his opposition to wind farming (it ruins the view from his compound) the US's development would be pushed back, but if an environmentalist were elected, it could be sooner.

Here's some info on methane gas for energy I was talking about earlier.

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/ebae071_80.html

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Methane_20Fuel_20Cell

http://www.energyvortex.com/pages/headlinedetails.cfm?id=534&archive=1

-----------------------------------------

As for the wind turbine in oceans...

http://www.gepower.com/about/press/en/2003_press/061603.htm

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/publications/default/tech_papers/17th_congress/3_2_01.asp

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:132769685&ctrlInfo=Round19%3AMode19a%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=

notice that neither have been done for sound economic and technological reasons... so tech level 8 at least, probably tech level 9. The only change in the methane thing would be a severe oil shortage situation.

I remember we're already starting to build sea wind turbines in RL (Tech level 8 to 8.5 I think?). I know we're building a 20 - 30 megawatt wind turbine in the ocean but forgot which country- Iceland? Scotland? Denmark? Or was it Norway or Sweden?

The Dutch have several Wind Turbines at sea in RL. Don't know their exact output though.

There's a National Geographic article from last year that has some good stuff about alternate energy. If I find it I'll post some highlights

I visted some wind turbines in West Texas last year and I remember a lot of what they were talking about. They're making plans for giant wind turbine platforms in the seas that can generate a lot (I don't remember a lot), but they said it was really expensive.

I also remember a Popular Science article on something like that. But Anyways, I think for it to be commercially viable, it should be tech level 8.5-9 (10+ years from now)

Also, if I turned my coal into oil, would there be any side effects (other than costing 24 points for both of them)?

Parthini']

Also, if I turned my coal into oil, would there be any side effects (other than costing 24 points for both of them)?

Ditto on that, I was thinking the same thing myself.

Do energy costs need to be factored in in this years builds? If not I'll have mine up (replacing this post) later tonight.

Do energy costs need to be factored in in this years builds? If not I'll have mine up (replacing this post) later tonight.

Energy Rules start in 1960, but you can include them earlier for practice.

Parthini']I visted some wind turbines in West Texas last year and I remember a lot of what they were talking about. They're making plans for giant wind turbine platforms in the seas that can generate a lot (I don't remember a lot), but they said it was really expensive.

I also remember a Popular Science article on something like that. But Anyways, I think for it to be commercially viable, it should be tech level 8.5-9 (10+ years from now)

Also, if I turned my coal into oil, would there be any side effects (other than costing 24 points for both of them)?

there is a very large Wind Turbine Farm within 30 miles of my house (a large mountain pass with frequent high winds). Yes, tech level 8 for commercial scale wind energy.

No pollution effects from coal to oil production. (well, nothing really noteworthy in game terms)

Sorry to ask a dumb question but what are the changes for Growth? If you have over 100 density you have -1 growth? Are there any other changes?

If you use the wikipedia list its different (90% for Europe, North America, Russia, 60% for Asia, Africa and RoW as I recall) Which is great for me (although my density was 99 anyways)

notice that neither have been done for sound economic and technological reasons... so tech level 8 at least, probably tech level 9. The only change in the methane thing would be a severe oil shortage situation.

Thats true.

However, the "Severe Oil Shortage" situation will be upon us *MUCH* earlier in E20 than in RL, owing to the immense early industrialization of Third World nations, especially South America, Africa, and Asia.

Oil may run out by 2050 or earlier in RL, but runs out in 2000 or earlier in E20. This could drive E20 nations to develop commercially viable methane or fusion power or hydrogen fuel cell technologies earlier than in RL.

And since we're probably going to reach level 9 before 2000, probably even 1990, I don't think it should be that big of a problem.

Since Palestine is a lot less populated than RL and the Egyptian Population can migrate further down the Nile, I don't think I'd have too much of a density problem (I have 3 nations with radically different density levels and Palestine/Israel is completely different in E20).

Also, I don't know if I asked this before, but does the Aswan Low Dam cost 24 points (the cost of a production center)? Also, does the Aswan High Dam count as a environmental problem since it's technically turning desert into grassland and expanding arable land (since it was created about 30 years early in E20, the Lake Nassar area should be at modern status).

Last but not least, I have 3 hydro points supporting 60 production, plus another 2 or 3 for my up-coming dam giving me around a 100-120 production cap. You also said my Egyptian oil is just enough to support my current army. In other words, unless I find someone who hasn't used up/sold all of their oil, I'm screwed on the 75% production max?

The 75% production is based on population. If Hydroelectric doesn't support you, they're always natural gas, and the AL will likely have nuclear tech by 1960, if all goes well. You'll need something for dealing with your commerce points, though, but I'm sure Arab League members can spare some oil, even if they can't spare any points.

Parthini']Sorry to ask a dumb question but what are the changes for Growth? If you have over 100 density you have -1 growth? Are there any other changes?

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lation_density
look at the nation that you own (if you own several real life nations, look at the one biggest in land area). Then reduce the figure by 40% if Asian, African or Latin American, 10% if European, Japan, North American or Russia.

if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is 101 or higher your pollution index is -1%

adjustment is because the figures on the chart are for the year 2000 or later, and we aren't there yet, and population will stabilize sooner as more nations are industralized (which always lowers birth rates)

Thats true.

However, the "Severe Oil Shortage" situation will be upon us *MUCH* earlier in E20 than in RL, owing to the immense early industrialization of Third World nations, especially South America, Africa, and Asia.

Oil may run out by 2050 or earlier in RL, but runs out in 2000 or earlier in E20. This could drive E20 nations to develop commercially viable methane or fusion power or hydrogen fuel cell technologies earlier than in RL.

likely but maybe not... depends on how things go. The main thing this was designed for is if the Middle East becomes unstable and oil supplies are endangered because of it.

OOC: This may seem like a stupid question, but why do we have a tech level 7.5? If this is all arbitrary, 7.5 could be 8, 8 could be 9, 8.5 could be 10, etc. A point halfway between two other arbitrary points is still arbitrary after all.

OOC: This may seem like a stupid question, but why do we have a tech level 7.5? If this is all arbitrary, 7.5 could be 8, 8 could be 9, 8.5 could be 10, etc. A point halfway between two other arbitrary points is still arbitrary after all.

*slaps Eleph*

We have a tech level 7.5 because it really isn't 7 anymore, but it isn't quite 8 yet.

OOC: This may seem like a stupid question, but why do we have a tech level 7.5? If this is all arbitrary, 7.5 could be 8, 8 could be 9, 8.5 could be 10, etc. A point halfway between two other arbitrary points is still arbitrary after all.

tech levels are from the Traveller RPG, which is a handy reference

Pakistan, 1958 Build, Tech Level 7
Spending Type: Market Economy Normal, Growth: 2% (normally 3%, but extra 1% from SCT would make it 4%, but pollution due to coal and other stuff, it's another -2%)

Budget:
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (45 production centers: 8 Agra, 2 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar [2 in Peshawar from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 157 points

Energy:
12 Coal
2 Oil
1 Natural Gas

Population: 400 million people

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 2 (Highly Trained)
x1 Mechanized .75 (Highly Trained)
x14 Pilots 3.5 (Expert)
x4 C47 1
x2 Hal Marut 2
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1.25 (Highly Trained)
x25 Light Infantry 12.5 (Highly Trained)
x17 Armored 12.75 (Highly Trained)
x3 Infantry 1.5 (Highly Trained)
x2 Parachute Divisions 1 point (Highly Trained)
x9 Mustard Gas "batches" 0
x1 Intelligence Agency 5 points
Total Spent: 46

Total Remaining: 111 points

Social Services:
Level II Social Services for everyone (80 points)

Total Spent: 126

Total Remaining: 31 points

Construction:
x1 Nuclear Program (Year 2/3) 24 points
x1 Home-grown electronics industry (Year 4) 5 points
Total Spent: 155

Total Remaining: 12

Military Purchases:
none

Total Spent:189

Total Remaining: 2

Energy Costs:
2 points for 2 oil points

Total Spent: 157

Total Remaining: 0

Predicted 1959 Budget (Note: Taking into the end of National Effort):
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (45 production centers: 8 Agra, 5 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar [3 in Hyderabad from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 160 points

Progress Towards Tech Level 7.5:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Year 2/3)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry. (Year 4/5)

Sharina I need you 1957 build for ASA launch shedule to be completed.

Sharina I need you 1957 build for ASA launch shedule to be completed.

I thought I posted builds, but apparently I forgot to. I'll post them later or tomorrow when I figure it out.

By the way, I do need to know about Tech Level 7.5 commerce limits. Do they go up? If so, by how much? What about air commerce? Bonus tourism points from airlines?

I need to know so I can figure out my 1958 build later this weekend (as I'll be Tech Level 7.5 by 1958).

Pakistan, 1958 Build, Tech Level 8


You mean Tech Level 7.5 once you finish electronics and nuke programs, right? :p

You mean Tech Level 7.5 once you finish electronics and nuke programs, right? :p

Oh shit! Sorry! :D

By the way, I do need to know about Tech Level 7.5 commerce limits. Do they go up? If so, by how much? What about air commerce? Bonus tourism points from airlines?

To my knowledge, they don't increase for tech level 7.5.

To my knowledge, they don't increase for tech level 7.5.

I could have sworn that I remember GB saying merchant shipping going up to 2 points (income) per ship instead of 1.5 points per ship, and that air commerce improves to something like 15 or 20 points. Also some bonus tourism from air commerce, like 1 extra tourism point for every 5 air commerce points or something like that.

Thats why I need GB to clarify whether these things do go into effect or if it was just an idea (and not applicable).

I could have sworn that I remember GB saying merchant shipping going up to 2 points (income) per ship instead of 1.5 points per ship, and that air commerce improves to something like 15 or 20 points. Also some bonus tourism from air commerce, like 1 extra tourism point for every 5 air commerce points or something like that.

Thats why I need GB to clarify whether these things do go into effect or if it was just an idea (and not applicable).

I remember that discussion too, but that's not what it says on the main page. Of course, I may have just forgotten to change it, so I'll wait for GB to weigh in.

I remember that discussion too, but that's not what it says on the main page. Of course, I may have just forgotten to change it, so I'll wait for GB to weigh in.

Let me review the old thread tomorrow.

Ho much does it cost to expand my oil production? I currently produce 5 Oil points.

The last production expansion (from 3 to 5 points) costed 5 points.

Ho much does it cost to expand my oil production? I currently produce 5 Oil points.

The last production expansion (from 3 to 5 points) costed 5 points.

it only costs points to establish a production and distribution infrastructure.. after that it expands naturally.

Iranian and Afghani oil production figures given for the UIR are based on peak production, so you really can't expand it in your case.

Unless a major real world discovery is made in real life over the course of the game

I could have sworn that I remember GB saying merchant shipping going up to 2 points (income) per ship instead of 1.5 points per ship, and that air commerce improves to something like 15 or 20 points. Also some bonus tourism from air commerce, like 1 extra tourism point for every 5 air commerce points or something like that.

Thats why I need GB to clarify whether these things do go into effect or if it was just an idea (and not applicable).

commerce improves at Tech Level 8, not at Tech Level 7.5.

Reason for improvement at tech level 7 --- commercial jet aircraft and heavy piston engined commercial transport aircraft, PLUS containerized shipping and roll on / roll off shipping (Sealand containers that you can simply hook a truck up to and drive off the ship).

Reason for improvement at tech level 8 -- widespread use of microcomputers for more efficient shipping and inventory practices. Its no coincidence that overnight shipping (Fedex, UPS, DHL etc) didn't really take off until this time period.

Thats the rationale

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1958 builds:

Population 36 million (Using 1.5% growth rate, calculated since 1950 and based on possible Geohive population graphs for South Korea, though it was hard to get an exact count).

Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%)
Oil Shock is over, so normal growth (4%). But, using pollution rules, I now am at 3% mainly because of my population....

41 points Production centers: Seoul 4 Pusan 4 Pyongyang 4 Vladivostok 4 Kwangju 4

19 shipping units= 30 Points (rounded, factoring in 5% sattelite bonus)

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points (rounded, factoring 5% sattelite bonus)

and 3 points of tourism (Seoul, Pyongyang, Vladivostok International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

80 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 4 social spending- 12 points

Foreign Aid- 3 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)
2 points to Asian Economic Fund

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigades .25 points
2 HQ units- 2pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Korean Air Force:

1 Avro Arrow unit- 1pt
1 Dassault Mirage III unit-1 pt
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25
4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2
1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 21 Points (Estimated)

3 points for Civil Defense

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

Things to buy-

5 Points- Subsidies to encourage development of an electronics industry
24 points towards Nuclear Infrastructure (got the plans from the USEA, but I need a reactor at-survey says-Yongbyon).
1 point to a new average pilot (Air Reserve) (To be finished next year)

Oil Points-
2 Imported from CAR-2pts
1 from UIR-1 point

OOC: I read one of those historical population graphs...I was stumped...

Requirements-Tech 7.5:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Got it)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (45% productivity, need to get crackin'!)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yeah)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Yeah)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Oh yeah.)
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (just one more)

Trade Partners for 1954-

3 USEA
2 China
2 Japan
2 FAS
2 UIR
2 Australia
2 Burma
1 Dispersed

So GB... Venezuela is the worlds 5th largest oil producer... which I guess is reflected with 6 oil points. But what about Ecuador, Panama, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia (especially), Paraguay, Uraguay, Chile, and Argentina? Nothing there? Not even a single point? ;)

So GB... Venezuela is the worlds 5th largest oil producer... which I guess is reflected with 6 oil points. But what about Ecuador, Panama, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia (especially), Paraguay, Uraguay, Chile, and Argentina? Nothing there? Not even a single point? ;)

its reflected in the points given... remember, almost no oil in the Andes region, little has been found elsewhere (at least not enough to matter at this point). The Bolivian/Paraguay area will get 1 point once tech level 8 is reached (improved oil exploration techniques)

China's build for 1957...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 370 industry + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 2 nuclear + 20 tourism = 452 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 370 points + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 2 nuclear + 20 tourism = 452 points total.

Other Income: 0 points.

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

82 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
147 points = Level III social services
12 points = Nuclear bomb production (100 bombs a year – stockpile of 148 nukes)

246 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

50 points for 10 Armored Divisions (thus, 10 Armored Corps created)
50 points for 10 Mechanized Artillery Divisions (thus 10 Artillery Corps created)
50 points for 10 Mechanized Flak Divisions (thus 10 Flak Corps created)

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 6 of 10… 18 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 2 of 5… 12 / 30 points)

5 points for development of Electronics Industry (Year 5 of 5… 25 / 25 points- COMPLETE)

6 points spent on Airborne Early Warning (Year 2 of 4… 12 / 24 points)

24 points to construct one nuclear power plant.

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (70 / 80. Remaining debt: 10 points)

12 points to SCT Space Program.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
54 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1958 economy:

424 industry
53 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points, 10 airline points, and 3 satellite points)
7 oil points
3 nuclear points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 507 income points for 1958.

Sharina, I show 822 points available to base growth on and get 49 production centers as natural growth... are you sure of your numbers?

370 points + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 2 nuclear + 20 tourism = 452 points total.plus another 370 = 822 x .06 = 49.32

6 points spent on Airborne Early Warning (Year 2 of 4… 12 / 24 points)


No need for this, I finish AEW in 1958 and under our tech agreement you get it in exchange for the latest nuke technology.

Sharina, I show 822 points available to base growth on and get 49 production centers as natural growth... are you sure of your numbers?

370 points + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 2 nuclear + 20 tourism = 452 points total.plus another 370 = 822 x .06 = 49.32

Actually, I'm in Government Cuts mode, and I'm basing my natural growth off the numbers I have under government cuts, not for peacetime spending. Also, I'm supposed to gain "double" growth under government cuts mode.

Here, from the 1st post in the Economic thread...

E20 Economy and Spending Thread/Rules

Growth
Points added to the economy from growth create new production centers. At cut spending they add 2 production centers for every point of growth, at peacetime they add 1 production center, and at national effort and wartime levels they add .5 (national effort) production centers, and in wartime they add .25 or .1 (wartime spending and total war spending).

Note bold emphasis.

So lets take 100 points total (industry, commerce, oil, etc.). Apply government cuts to the economy (5% growth) and an Economic Bloc bonus (1% growth). Thats 6% growth total.

6% of 100 = 6 points. THEN 2 production centers for 6 points worth of growth means 12 production centers gained, as per the 2 production centers per 1 point of growth as per the rule quoted above (only under government cuts though).

If I was under peacetime spending, my growth and industry would be substantially different. Here's a comparison.

Government Cuts (China's current economic mode)

452 points total.

6% of 452 = Roughly 27 growth points.

27 growth points ---> 54 production centers (Government cuts mode only)

Peacetime / Normal Spending mode:

822 points total.

4% of 822 = 33 growth points

33 growth points ---> 33 production centers

-------------------------------

Ato-Sara, I didn't realize you were researching AEW tech. I'll edit my builds accordingly.

I re-direct my 6 points from AEW research in 1957 into 3 pilot units for 6 points (at 2 points a pilot) and again for my first year of AEW research in 1956 (3 pilot units for 6 points unless its too late to modify that build, not realizing Ato-Sara was doing the AEW thing?)

So I essentially convert my AEW points into pilots (6 pilots for 12 points total) as the USEA is doing the AEW thing and to avoid duplication of research.

Japanese Build 1958

Population: 90 million
Growth: 2% (with pollution)
Production Centers: 101
Shipping and Air: 42
Tourism: 9
Oil/Energy Points needed: 4
Points Provided: 2
Tech Level:7.5
Total: 151

Lvl. 4 Social Safety Net:45

Maintenance: 28.25

6 Frigate Flotillas
4 Elite Light Infantry
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
2 Expert Pilots
7 Elite Pilots
5 Mirage III's
3 Destroyer Squadrons
6 Garrison Units
4 Elite Mountain Brigade
1 Light Missile Cruiser
Left: 77.75

Sell: 2 corvette Units: 6
Build:

Nuclear Fuel Process Infastructure (3rd year): 24
3 Tech 7.5 Frigate Units: 15
1 Production Center: 24


Aid:
8. to AEF
7.75 to ASA

Aid:
14.25 to AEF


The AEF really doesn't need that many points, could you possibly split those point between the AEF and the ASA?

1957

The United Egyptian, Sudanese, and Palestinian Republics
Population: 32 Million
Tech Level: 7
Production: 120
22 Egyptian Centers (44)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian International Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (21)
10 Sudanese Centers (20)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese International Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)
Sudanese Shipping (9)
2 Palestinian Centers (4)
Palestinian National Airline (2)
Palestinian International Airline (2)
Palestinian Tourism (1)
Palestinian Shipping (6)

Maintenance: 27.25
5 Elite Trained Garrison Units (3.75)
4 Elite Trained Mountain Infantry Brigades (3)
4 Elite Trained Armored Divisions (4)
4 Elite Pilots (2)
2 Elite Trained Armored Brigades (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Light Infantry Divisions (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Flak Brigades (1.5)
2 Dassault Mirage III (2)
1 Elite Trained Mechanized Divisions (1)
1 E-1 Tracer (1)
1 HQ (1)
Intelligence Agency (5)
Scrapped one Hawker Hunter

Production: 66
Level 3 Social Services: 12
Electronics Industry: 5 (Year 4 of 5)
Palestinian Production Center: 24
1 HQ: 10
Heavy Carrier Battlegroup: 15

Foreign Aid: 26.75
Ethiopia: 12.5
AL: 14.25

Budget: 120
Total Costs: 120

Energy/Pollution: (Need 3 more energy points by 1960)
-Egypt has 3 hydroelectric points (powering 60 production)
-The UR Military is supported by Egyptian oil
-Egyptian oil doesn’t reach surplus until the 70’s
-Egyptian Natural Gas isn’t discovered until the 80’s
-Coal mining in Sinai doesn’t start until the 60’s (delayed in RL due to the conflict)
-The Aswan Dams are pretty much the biggest environmental threat.

Tech Level 7.5 (Must meet at least 4 of the conditions plus #6)
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (On Year 6 of 10)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (Have 33 of 48 needed factories)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Researching ICBMs)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Researching Fuel Separation)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Both for all Republics)
6. 5 points for Electronics Industry for 5 Years (On Year 4 of 5)

The Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia)
Population: 20 Million
Tech Level: 5
Production: 27.5
4 Production Centers (8)
Natural Resources (1)
National Airline (2)
International Airline (2)
Shipping (2)
United Republican Aid (12.5)

Maintenance: 3.5
8 Light Infantry Divisions: (2)
2 Mountain Infantry Brigades (.5)
2 Infantry Corps: (1)

Production: 24
Lv.3 Social Services: 6
Production Center: 18 (4/4 Done)

Budget: 15.5
Total Costs: 27.5

United Islamic Republic Builds 1957:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 14% (Rural Electrification Bonus+1% SCT growth) : 6 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 16 Production (total production centers:8) + 5 oil (-3 trade) + 3 tourism+10 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*)+15 points (French Loan) = 52 points

Population = 30 million

Military:
2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 4 points (Elite Trained)
3x Mujahideen Division (Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.25 (Elite Trained)
2x Armored Division (Teheran) 2 points (Elite Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 2 point (Elite Trained)
3x Expert Pilots .75 points
1x HQ (Teheran) 1 point

Spent: 12 points

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (9 points)

Spent 21 points

Training:
2x Elite Pilots 8 points

Spent: 29 points

Foreign Purchase and Support:
6 Points Japan (2 Corvette Units)
6 Points SU (2 Draken Units)
8 Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Foreign Trade
1 Oil Point Korea
2 Oil Points to Japan

Spent: 49 points

Domestic Investments:
3 Points Civil Defense

Spent: 52 points

Total Spent: 52 points

Total Remaining: 0

Level 7.5

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (busy, 8th year now
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (Nope)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yup)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Nope)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Yup)

I need input on how many merchant shipping the Philippines and Burma has. If GB or Lesser Ribenia can tell me, it'd be much appreciated.

1958

The United Egyptian, Sudanese, and Palestinian Republics
Population: 32 Million
Tech Level: 7
Production: 124
23 Egyptian Centers (46)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian International Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (21)
10 Sudanese Centers (20)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese International Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)
Sudanese Shipping (9)
3 Palestinian Centers (6)
Palestinian National Airline (2)
Palestinian International Airline (2)
Palestinian Tourism (1)
Palestinian Shipping (6)

Maintenance: 36.25
5 Elite Trained Garrison Units (3.75)
4 Elite Trained Mountain Infantry Brigades (3)
4 Elite Trained Armored Divisions (4)
4 Elite Pilots (2)
2 Elite Trained Armored Brigades (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Light Infantry Divisions (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Flak Brigades (1.5)
2 Dassault Mirage III (2)
2 HQ’s (2)
1 Elite Trained Mechanized Divisions (1)
1 Heavy Carrier Battlegroup (2)
1 E-1 Tracer (1)
Intelligence Agency (5)
National Air Defense Network (3)
Civil Defense (3)
Scrapped one Hawker Hunter

Production: 71
Level 3 Social Services: 12
Electronics Industry: 5 (Year 5 of 5)
1 Egyptian Production Center: 24
1 Palestinian Production Center: 24
AEW Research: 6 (Year 1 of 4)

Foreign Aid: 16.75
Ethiopia: .5
AL: 16.25

Budget: 124
Total Costs: 107.75

Energy/Pollution: (Need 3 more energy points by 1960)
-Egypt has 3 hydroelectric points (powering 60 production)
-The UR Military is supported by Egyptian oil
-Coal mining in Sinai doesn’t start until the 60’s (delayed in RL due to the conflict)
-Egyptian oil doesn’t reach surplus until the 70’s
-Egyptian Natural Gas isn’t discovered until the 80’s
-The Aswan Dams are pretty much the biggest environmental threat.

Tech Level 7.5 (Must meet at least 4 of the conditions plus #6)
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (On Year 7 of 10)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (Have 36 of 48 needed factories)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Researching Large ICBMs)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Researching Fuel Separation)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Both for all Republics)
6. 5 points for Electronics Industry for 5 Years (On Year 5 of 5)

The Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia)
Population: 20 Million
Tech Level: 5
Production: 17
5 Production Centers (10)
Natural Resources (1)
National Airline (2)
International Airline (2)
Shipping (2)
United Republican Aid (.5)

Maintenance: 3.5
8 Light Infantry Divisions: (2)
2 Mountain Infantry Brigades (.5)
2 Infantry Corps: (1)

Production: 14
Lv.4 Social Services: 10
Improve Infrastructure: 4 (Year 1 of 3)

Budget: 17.5
Total Costs: 17.5

Scandic Union
Build 1958
Population-22 million
50 prod centers-
Kiel 5, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 4, Tallin 3, Murmansk 3
34 shipping units
5 airlines
2 Nuclear power plant-Northern Finland
132 points Prod centers(national effort), 50 points commerce, 10 points airlines, 2 points tourism, 2 nuclear, 7 oil, 5 natural gas, 3 communications sat network-208 points

50 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
6 points-Nuke program(7/10)
5 points-intel agency
3 points-Lv 5 Chemical warfare(1/10)
12 points- Heavy Lift Rockets(12 left)
12 points-Improved Spy sat
2 points-communications satelite network
24 points-MIRV's
6 points-Spy satelite network
1 nuclear heavy missile cruiser, 2 nuclear AA cruisers-20 points(14 points left)
26 points-nuclear power plant
10 points-UIR
10 points-Turkey
10 points-rest of Turkic alliance
3 points-People of Petrograd...188
3 points- ETU95
.75 points-SF battalion
4 points-Tu22
6 points-Tu95
4 points-elite pilot

Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement-
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.(Done)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.(Done)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.(Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.(Done)
6. Electronics Industry (1958)



Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 4, Smyrnia 4, Izmir 3, Konya 3, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 27 shipping units, 2 nuclear power, 1 airport=68 points+10 points Scandic Aid
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
4 Saab Drakens,2 Saab Lansen, 6 elite pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes,1 HQ 6 light infantry divisions (highly trained), 2 mech divisions.(Highly trained) 1 armored division-13.75

Purchase:62.5

1.5 points-destroyer squad(Done)
5 points- destroyer sqaud
6 points-AA cruiser(Equipped with SU equipment/tecnology)
2 points-Helicopter unit
4 points-elite pilot
10 points-intel agency
6 points-To SU to fund Comm Sat net to cover all of the Turks
24 points- Prod center
4 points-1 Tu22


Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 5, Alma Ata 4, 1 national airline, 4 international airline, 1 airport(Tashkent), 4 oil, 6 gas=39 points+10 last year
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps(Elite), 3 pilots(Elite), 2 Saab Draken, 1 garrison unit(Elite), 1 Saab Lansen 8.5 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy: 32.5 to spend
1 points civil defense
12 points-space program, Heavy lift rockets(Complete)
19.5-prod center(4.5 left)


Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 1 prod center, 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 shipping=13 points+10 Scandic points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
17 points-prod center(7 left)


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 2 , Kashgar 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=10 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
7 points-3 airlines(1 left)


Ukrainian Budget 1958
Population: 37 million
Tech level: 7
2 Nuclear power plant(SU Built)-Kiev
Income (Normal): (45 prod centers)Stalino 8, Dneipopetrovsk 8, Kiev 8, Odessa 7, Kharkov 7, Sevastpool 7, 30 shipping units, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminal, 2 nuclear, 2 natural gas=153
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Maintenance: 32.25 points (1 HQ, 2 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 mech flak divisions, 6 elite armored divisions, 4 elite mech divisions 7 Saab Draken, 2 Saab Lansen, ETU95, 11 expert pilot, 10 destroyers, 2 nuclear attack subs, 40 corvettes).

Spending:111.75 points to spend
5 points-electronics industry(3/5)
20 points-2 nuclear power heavy missile cruisers(Done)
24 points-2 nuclear power AA cruisers
4 points-Prod center(Done)
2 points-comm network
48 points-2 nuclear power
4 points-Tu 107
4 points- elite pilot



Polish Budget 1958
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
2 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)-Lodz, Warsaw
Production centers: (57 prod centers)Warsaw 8, Lodz 7, Krakow 7, Katowice 7, Brest-Litovsk 7, Lvov 7, Riga 7, Lublin 7, 30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz), 2 nuclear=170
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 36.5 points (1 HQ, 5 elite armored corps, 5 elite infantry corps, 6 elite mech divisions, 8 flak units, 7 Saab Draken, 4 Saab Lansen, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 14 elite pilots).

Spending: 120
4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-electronics industry
17 points-Prod Center(Done)
4 points-Tu 107
8 points-2 elite pilot
10 points-2 destroyer sqaudrons
12 points-nuclear AA cruiser
5 points-nuclear attack sub
48 points-2 nuclear power plants
3 points ETU95
2 points-comm sat net
4 points-intel operations

Turkey and the CAR need to be added to the list of nations with Intel agencies.

Also, when will some of my NPC's hit tech level 7? Like Turkey and the CAR who have maxed out their economies for a while now?

In 1960, Ethiopia should reach Tech Level 6. It'll finish it's second infrastructure improvements and I've got it up to 5 production centers. It has also started tech level 4 social services (for food assistance during droughts). While it's still a poor little 3rd world country, the UR is really modernizing it.

Also, can I research mechanical agriculture for Ethiopia next year? When the food system starts, maybe Ethiopia can get some major food exports going.

Turkey and the CAR need to be added to the list of nations with Intel agencies.

Also, when will some of my NPC's hit tech level 7? Like Turkey and the CAR who have maxed out their economies for a while now?

I forgot about them, both should be tech level 7 now

I need input on how many merchant shipping the Philippines and Burma has. If GB or Lesser Ribenia can tell me, it'd be much appreciated.

Philippines 1957
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 4 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
5 points to USAE space program (the Japanese aid is simply rolled into that)
remaining 1.2 points are being spent on improving tourism

Phillipines will reach tech level 7 in 1958, tourism will increase soon as well

Philippines 1957
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 4 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
5 points to USAE space program (the Japanese aid is simply rolled into that)
remaining 1.2 points are being spent on improving tourism

Phillipines will reach tech level 7 in 1958, tourism will increase soon as well

Thanks, GB. Now all I need is info on Burma's shipping, population, and tourism and then it'll be all set.

The Kingdom is just starting to develop and research nuclear power at a small level at present and hopes to get everything developed for peaceful purposes within the next five years... as well as trying to revive the nation into a possible regional success story.

Shipping was mostly unaffected by the resession as well as transportation and intrastructure. The military may need to be restructured yet again as well as keeping forces in Yugoslavia and Romania as a partnership with both of those nations.

I forgot about them, both should be tech level 7 now

Alrite, i'll be changing thier builds a bit to reflect this.

Nigeria now has an intelligence ageny, known as the Federal Intelligence Division.

1958 build tomorrow.

Now all I need is info on Burma's shipping, population, and tourism and then it'll be all set.

When Burma was in the Empire I put points into it as investment in it's infrastructure and such. This was just prior to the tourism rules and Burma's independence so it didn't really get much development on the theme, but the investment was there. Perhaps a tourism point and 8 to 10 shipping units?

Also I reckon Burma's population is around 20.5 million.

When Burma was in the Empire I put points into it as investment in it's infrastructure and such. This was just prior to the tourism rules and Burma's independence so it didn't really get much development on the theme, but the investment was there. Perhaps a tourism point and 8 to 10 shipping units?

Also I reckon Burma's population is around 20.5 million.

Don't you do Burma's NPC builds?
Anyway I gave them 3 shipping units a while back...

I gave the Phillipines 2 shipping units in 1957 I believe, I'm not sure if you factored that in

Turkey, CAR, and Nigeria added to the list of countries with intelligence services. I would imagine Nigeria's wouldn't be as effective as others for the time being, simply because better technology is available to tech level 7 and 7.5 nations, but LR or GB should be the final authority on that issue.

Hmm...

Lets assume Burma has 10 shipping units (to reflect British and USEA aid up to now) and 1 tourism income already in place.

Sounds fair, everybody?

I'd imagine it would depend. I'm doing more simple, subtle missions than the whole satellites watching the whole planet approach, if he goes that way he could do well.

Lets assume Burma has 10 shipping units (to reflect British and USEA aid up to now) and 1 tourism income already in place.

I see no problem with that.

Don't you do Burma's NPC builds?

Nope, I do every other Commonwealth nation, but the SCT said that they wanted to handle Burma.

I gave the Phillipines 2 shipping units in 1957 I believe, I'm not sure if you factored that in

no, didn't see those, so the Philippines will have more shipping in 1958

Nope, I do every other Commonwealth nation, but the SCT said that they wanted to handle Burma.

Don't remember us arguing that....

But still I'll be happy to do it if some one would give their current economic stats.

1958 Syrian Budget (Peacetime Market)
Income: 63 (24 production, 38 commerce, 1 tourism)
Consistent Spending: 22.75 (5 SFIR maintenance, 7 military maintenance, 6 Social Services (level 5), 4.75 ALADN (Air defense for all AL sans Egypt, includes self))
Other Spending: 39.25 (13 to China for sales, 2 for Int'l Airline, rest to Arab League)

In 1958 the Arab League expects to finish nuclear reactor technology (to build power plants in 1959), and ICBM technology (an Arab Sputnik also in 1959)

In 1958 the Arab League expects to finish nuclear reactor technology (to build power plants in 1959), and ICBM technology (an Arab Sputnik also in 1959)

Does that mean I can start building nukes or does that take even more spending?

6 points per year to maintain the program, the Arab League shouldn't fund that in my opinion.

As a note to the world I am not building nukes.

1958 Syrian Budget (Peacetime Market)
Income: 63 (24 production, 38 commerce, 1 tourism)
Consistent Spending: 22.75 (5 SFIR maintenance, 7 military maintenance, 6 Social Services (level 5), 4.75 ALADN (Air defense for all AL sans Egypt, includes self))
Other Spending: 39.25 (8 to China for sales, 2 for Int'l Airline, rest to Arab League)

In 1958 the Arab League expects to finish nuclear reactor technology (to build power plants in 1959), and ICBM technology (an Arab Sputnik also in 1959)

The 8 points will get you 1 Armored division (5 points) and 1 Flak division (3 points) for the year. You can spend 8 more points in 1959 to get the second armored and flak divisions.

I'll edit that to ge the second armored division worth this year, and get the second flak in 1959.

I'll edit that to ge the second armored division worth this year, and get the second flak in 1959.

That works.

6 points per year to maintain the program, the Arab League shouldn't fund that in my opinion.

Oh trust me, I wasn't implying the Arab League should fund nuke tech. The last thing we need is Turkey invading you and Jordan coming to your rescue by launching a barrage of nukes.

Nigerian Build, 1958

Tech Level 6

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Growth: 4% (3% for spending + 1% for economic bloc [Commonwealth])

Population: 35 million

Income

Seven industrial centers (Three at Lagos, Two at Abuja, one at Port Harcourt, one at Sokoto. 14 points)
Nineteen Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)
Foriegn Aid from Brazil (12 points)

TOTAL: 62 points

Domestic Spending

Level III Social Spending: 10 points

Production Center: 24 points

Debt to SA: 5 points

Level III Social Services for Benin and Niger: 4.5 points

Intelligence Agency: 5 Points

Sub-Total: 49

Military Upkeep

1xHighly Trained Motorized Division: .75 points
2xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: 1.0 points
1xHighly Trained Light Infantry Division: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5 points
1xExpert Pilot: .25 points
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25 points
1xDestroyer Flotilla: .25 points
1xLight Missile Cruiser: .5 points
1xBAC Lightning Unit: 1 point

Sub-Total: 5

Military Spending

Upgrade One Infantry Division to Motorized Division: 1 point

1xMarine Brigade (Elite): 2 points
1xHQ Unit (4/10)

Sub-total: 1 point

TOTAL: 62 points

Trade Assignment

Four Units to South Africa

Four Units to the United Kingdom

Four Units to Germany

Four to the United States

Two to Brazil

Oil Points
One to the UK

Two to South Africa

One to Nigeria

One to Brazil

South African Budget 1958 Tech Level 7.5
Population: 33,316,000
Income: 183
Production: 126 (63 production centers/66 maximum)
Commerce: 46 (27 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment: Cancelled
Annual Growth: 4% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth)

Energy [need 5 more energy points by 1960]
4 Oil
3 Coal
1 Natural Gas
2 Oil points/year from Nigeria (specified as Strategic Reserve)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-13.25 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-9 points
Social Services (Level III)- 1.5 point (for Angola)
Continuing Research Grants-6 points
Spy Satellite Network-6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
4x Nuclear Power Plant-96 points
Improvement of Transporation Infastructure (Angola and colonies)-4 points (Year 3 of 3)
1x C130 Transport Unit-2 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-4.25 points (research 67.7% complete)
1x Avro Vulcan unit-6 points
Discretionary Spending-10 points

SECRET:
1x Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine-5 points
1x Improved IRBM Unit-1 point
Improved Spy Satellite Network-12 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
15 points owed by Nigeria-Canceled.

Surplus
N/A

Projected 1959 Income: 132 (63 production centers + 3 growth) + 46 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 191 total points

German Build 1958
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: National Effort 1% +1% EEC
Production: 139, 6 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 9 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 4 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

Regular Spending: 417 Industry+6 Nuke Power+53 Commerce+9 tourist+10 Points Scandic Compensation=495 points

Maintenance (121):
*reserve* 28 Highly Trained Infantry Divisions-21
6 Elite Mechanized Inf-6
6 Elite Armored-6
8 Special Forces Paratrooper-8
14 Elite Mech Flak-14
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

3 HQ-3

35 Elite Pilots-17.5
5 regular Pilots-free

4 Arado Ar 232-1 point
6 Do 337-3
18 TA200-9 points
11 BAC Lightning-11
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

3 Attack Submarine-1.5

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (44):
Level 4 for 88 Million-44 points

Civilian Builds (243):

Repair 3 of Kiel's Industry-36 points

2 Nuclear Power Plants-48 points

Converting 1 Coal to 1 Oil-12 points

Space Plane Research-12 points (Year 3/4)

Spy Satellite Network-6 points
Improved Spy Satellite Network Research-12 points

Improved Communications Satellite Network-6 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-20 points
ESA Manned Orbital Labratory-24 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

2% growth-5 factories (1 repair Kiel)

15 points for to Arab Federation
20 points to Arab League
11 points to Kurdistan

Military Builds (122):

2 points to KND

2 Special Forces Light Infantry-6 points
2 Cargo Helicopters-4 points
4 Armored Divisions-20 points

20 TA 202-60 points

1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-6 Points (year 1/4)
1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-6 Points (year 1/4)
1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-6 Points (year 1/4)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1959
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 148, 2 oil points, 8 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Improved Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 5 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 4(1) Kiel, 5 Hannover, 4 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 5 Saarbrucken, 5 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Costs 1958 (Practace)

Energy Needed-22
Military-5
Production-14
Commerce-3

Energy Available-15
Nuclear Power-6
Coal-2
Hydroelectric-2
Natural Gas-2
Oil-3

Energy Imported-7
Oil-7 (From Saudi Arabia)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trade Partners

40 Points

Britain-6
China-5
United States-3
Egypt-2
Syria-2
Arabia-3
France-1
Brazil-3
FNS-2
Australia-2
South Africa-4
Nigeria-2
Scandic Union-3
Other-2

Not to be a pain, but can we make a separate thread for economy and a separate thread for builds? It's really hard to find stuff from other builds when the year's builds are 10 pages apart. Plus, we talk enough economy to where it is worth its own thread.

BTW, does anyone mind if I do the Arab Federation's build? I can also do some others if anyone wants.

Parthini']Not to be a pain, but can we make a separate thread for economy and a separate thread for builds? It's really hard to find stuff from other builds when the year's builds are 10 pages apart. Plus, we talk enough economy to where it is worth its own thread.


Seconded.

Parthini']Not to be a pain, but can we make a separate thread for economy and a separate thread for builds? It's really hard to find stuff from other builds when the year's builds are 10 pages apart. Plus, we talk enough economy to where it is worth its own thread.


Thirded. But the front page may need to be split too. The rules for how to make builds and improve economy and deal with pollution are pretty damn useful to have as a reference.

Thirded. But the front page may need to be split too. The rules for how to make builds and improve economy and deal with pollution are pretty damn useful to have as a reference.

probably a good idea, I just recently created a new US thread because the old one was getting unwieldy

another idea is for nations to create themselves new threads, with military, economic and political stuff in the first three posts and then simply provide links

Population:
17.5 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime:
Growth = 4% (3+1) of 120.5 is nothing (capped at no new Production Centers) None lost to pollution effects.
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 68
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
26 Merchant Marines; 3 National Airline; 2 International Airline = 49
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)


Budget for 1957: 68+4+49+1.5= 122.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services to entire population--8 points
8 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
2 Patrol/Escort groups--.5 points
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--1.5 points
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
6 Gen. 3 jet fighters--6 points
23 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
Large ICBM research--24 points (finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--10 points
2 ASW/Commando Carrier Group--20 points (done in two years)
3 AA Cruisers--18 points (done in two years)
2 Mechanized Marine Brigades--4 points
71 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in East Timor Infastructure and Social Services--2 points
Secret: Maintenence of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--2 points
Secret: Foundation of AIA cells in Malyasia and Indonesia--1 point each (2 pts)
Convert 3 Coal to One Oil--12 points
18 Points Spent

Reserve Points
Energy Expenditures--2 points
2 Points Spent

8 + 23 + 71 + 18 + 2 = 122 Points Spent (.5 Surplus)

Australian Commerce Breakdown
47 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 6; South Africa 5; China 5; Pakistan 3; USEA 3; Korea 3; FNS 3; Philippines 1; Germany 2; Japan 2; Indonesia 2; Malyasia 2; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 5 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry
-------------------------------------------------------
Enercy Calculations (Practice for 1960)
Energy Needed:
--Production: 4
--Commerce: 3
--Military: 1

Energy Avaliable:
--1 Oil, 3 Natural Gas, 8 Coal

Energy Used:
--3 Natural Gas for Production
--1 Coal for Production
--1 Oil for Military
--1 Domestic Oil (3 Coal) for Commerce
--2 Imported Oil for Commerce

Energy Imported:
--2 Oil (Indonesia and Malyasia?)

Growth:
PAT: +1%
Level 5 Social Care: +1%
Pollution Penalty: 0%
Total Growth: 2%**

**Economy Maxed anyways.


1958

Population: 44 Million
Domestic Production: 44 Factories; 132 points.
Commerce: 60 Merchant Marine; 80pts. 2 National Airline; 4pts. 3 International Airlines; 6pts.
Tourism: 20pts

TOTAL: 252pts

9 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Bogota, Quito, Caracas, Cali, Panama, Paraguay, Uruguay.)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 70.5p

1 x Specialized Infantry Division = 2pts (Elite Training)
6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-121) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
3 x E121 Aircraft = 1.5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
1 x Nuclear Heavy Carrier Group = 1p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
3 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121's
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

137.5 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (147.5pts)

Free Milk for everyone - 10pts
6 Points to Joint Space Program with the US
8.5 to world bank
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 4/12pts (1/3yr)
1 x Nuclear Heavy Carrier Group - 10/30pts (1/4yrs)
1 x Nuclear Heavy Carrier Group - 10/30pts (1/4yrs)
1 x Elite Pilots 2/4pts (1/2yrs)
1 x Elite Pilots 2/4pts (1/2yrs)
2 x Average Pilot - 2pt
1 x F12 Blackbird - 10pts
1 x M121N Voodoo - 3pts (NAVAL)
1 x KC135 - 3pts
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 1 of 5... 5 / 25 points)
20pts to Subsidize Child Care
32pts to be given to Families with two or more children; Roughly $3000 to each family for daycare.
= 147.5


Energy Allocations:
140pts (Nuclear) --> 140/132
80pts (Natural Gas) --> 220/132 --> Export 4 Natural Gas Points
40pts (Hydro Electric) -->260/132 --> Reserve Energy
20pts (Coal) --> 280/132 --> Export 1 Coal Point

Oil Allocations (6 oil points = 120):
Merchant Shipping: 60 (3/6)
Military Upkeep: 40 (5/6)
Stockpile: 20 (6/6)

US 1958 Budget
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10910535&postcount=2

Kingdom of Morocco 1957
Population 11 million tech level 6.5
Production center: Casablanca 2, Tangiers 2, plus national airline, international airline, 1 colonial point Mauritania
Budget: 8 domestic +1 colonial + 4 commerce + 1 tourism = 14 points
Trading partners: Spain 1, US 1, Algeria 1, Africa 1
Level 3 social spending: 3.3 points
Army: 4 mountain brigades (well trained), 2 mechanized divisions (well trained) (equipped by US) 4 points
Air Force: 1 F4C fighter interceptor unit, 1 F105 fighter bomber unit, 1 C130 transport unit, 3 expert pilots, 2.5 points
Navy: 1 frigate unit, 1 coastal patrol unit .5 points
Social services and economic assistance to Mauritania 3.7 points

Liberia (independent nation) 1957
Population: 800,000, tech level 6
Production center: Monrovia 2, 1 national airline
Budget: 3 points (reduced spending)
Level 4 social services: 1 point
Military: 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, 1 light infantry division (well trained) .5 points, remaining budget spent on (1.25 points) spent on developing tourism

Philippines 1958
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 6 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F4C fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C130 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
A new administration in the Philippines turns down Japanese aid this year, pointing out that other nations like Burma and Indonesia need it more. Not to mention African nations.

Canada 1958
Population 15 million tech level 7.5
Production centers: Toronto 5, Thunder Bay 4, Montreal 2, Winnepeg 2, Vancouver 1, Halifax 1, oil center at Winnipeg, national air line, international airline, plus 10 shipping units,
Budget: 30 domestic + 1 oil + 20 commerce + 1.5 tourism = 52.5 points
Canada has reached its productivity limit and growth is keeping up with population growth (of 2%)
Trading partners: US 5, UK 5, Europe 5, East Asia 5
Level 4 Social Spending: 7 points
Civil Defense: 1.5 points
RCAF: 2 F101B all weather interceptors, 1 E121, 2 Hawker Hunter fighter bomber, 1 C130 transport unit, 1 Neptune maritime patrol unit, 1 KC135 tanker unit, 8 expert pilots, 7 points
Canadian Army: 2 elite airborne brigades, 1 elite mechanized division, 3 reserve mechanized divisions, 1 reserve HQ unit, 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot, 6.25 points
RCN: 1 frigate unit, 2 escort groups (corvettes), 1 submarine unit (5 snorkel submarines) 1.25 points
23 points subtotal
1958 purchases:
12 points to US to assist with Space effort
5 points on electronics industry (to reach tech level 8)
12 points toward nuclear power plant (year 2)

Iceland (includes Greenland)
Population 150,000, tech level 6
No production, 3 resources (fishing)
level 5 social spending 1 point, excess spent on developing tourism
Iceland has no military, and depends on Canadian and US protection

Caribbean Trade Organization (all nations also in Pan American Treaty)
Cuba 1958
Population 6 million tech level 6
Havana 3 production centers
Budget: 6 domestic + 1 tourism +
Level 4 social spending: 2 points, Civil Defense 1 point, Navy of 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, Army with 1 well trained parachute brigade .5 points, Air Force with 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot 1 point, (4.75 points total)
Remainder (1.25 points) being spent on improving tourist infrastructure
Cuba has decided to dispense with a large military, and primarily the Army spends its time doing disaster relief, while the Navy is essentially just a coast guard.

Central American nations 1958 (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras)
Population: 8 million, tech level 6
1 production center each Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador,
Budget: 8 points domestic +1 point tourism
Level 4 social spending: 3.6 points
Civil Defense: .72 points
Coast Guard: 2 Coastal Patrol groups .5 points
Air Force: 1 helicopter unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 2 expert pilots 2 points
The Central American nations have gotten rid of their militaries, retaining only a coast guard and air units to assist during time of disaster (hurricanes and earthquakes)

Mexico
Population: 35 million tech level 6.5
Production centers: Vera Cruz 2, Monterrey 3, Mexico City 3, Yucatan 3, Tampico 2, 2 oil points, 1 national airline
Budget: 13 domestic (reduced spending) + 2 commercial + 2 oil + 2 tourism = 16 points
level 3 social spending 11.5 points,
Civil Defense: 3.5 points
4 infantry corps 2 points
Coast Guard: 2 coastal patrol units .5 points
Air Force: 1 C82 transport unit, 1 F101B all weather interceptor unit, 2 expert pilots

Virgin Islands
Population: 50,000 tech level 6
1 international airline
budget: 1 point tourism
level 5 social services: .5 points
remainder spent on 2 coastal patrol units (.5 points)

Haiti
Population: 3 million, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 2 domestic points
Level 4 social spending: 1.5 points plus .25 points for 1 coastal patrol unit, .25 points for 1 C47 unit with average pilot

Dominican Republic
Population: 500,000, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 1 domestic points (cut spending) + 1 tourism +1 international airline = 3 points
Level 4 social spending: .25 points, coast guard of 2 patrol units .5 points, 2 light infantry divisions (well trained, both reserve units) 1 point, Civil defense: .12 points, remainder spent on purchasing nuclear power plants from US (which will be paid for in about 8 years but are built now)

no significant changes from previous years

USEA 1958 build

Population: 51 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 1% SCT Economic Bonus - 2% growth from oil rescession = 2%}]

Economic budget: 156 points (Production centers [102]: Hanoi 3, Saigon, 3, Vientene 3, Pnomh Penh 3, Bangkok 3, Haiphong 3, Da Nang 3, Cam Ranh 3, Si Racha 3, Can Tho 3, Kampong Cham 3, Sattahip 3, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 2, Chiang Mai 2, Kampot 2. Oil[2]: Paracel Islands 2. Nuclear power plants[1]: Vinh 1. Commerce[46]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 28x Shipping Units 40 [14,000,000 million tons], Satellite comunications Network 2. Tourism [5]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 2, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[0]: 0 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 25 points

Asian Space Program- 8 points

National Air Defense Warning System- 5 points

Civil Defence- 5 points

Electronics Industry- 5 points

AEF fund- 4 points

5/5 National airline- 3.5 points

.25/5 National airline- .25 points

Military:

24/24 AEW Research- 6 points

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Nuclear weapons production program- 6 points

4x Elite pilots- 16 points

2x C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units- 8 points

1x CA Kirin Lamsong Tanker unit- 6 points

1x Heavy Missile Cruiser- 10 points

Maintenance:
4 Light infantry divisions 3 points,*
1 parachute brigade 1 point, [Hand picked]
3 HQ unit 4.5 points,*
5 marine light infantry brigades 3.75 points,*
4 marine mechanized infantry divisions 4 points,*
2 Mechanized flak groups 2 points,*
2 mechanized infantry division 2 points,*
1 Armoured Division 1 point,*
1 Mechanized Artillery group 1 point,*
-
4 Dassault Mirage III fighter unit 4 points,
1 Ht-80 transport unit .25 points,
3 A4 Skyhawk light bomber units 1.5 points,
9 Ht-3 Helicopter transport units 2.25 points
2 F8U Crusader fighter units 2 points,
2 Hong H-5 Medium bomber units 1 point,
2 C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units 1 point,
22 Elite pilots 11 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 points,
3 Light missile cruisers 1.5 points,
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points,
2 Coastal Patrol Groups .5 points,
2 Nuclear Attack submarines 1 point,
2 Amphibious Assault Group 1 point

TOTAL= 52.25
(*Denotes elite training)


Conditions for tech level 7.5 advance:
Red indicates in progress, Blue indicates completed

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Launched this year by the ASA)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Year 4 of 5)

USEA
Enercy Calculations (Practice for 1960)
Energy Needed:
--Production: 5
--Commerce: 3
--Military: 3

Energy Avaliable:
--2 Oil, 3 Natural Gas, 2 Hydroelectric, 1 Nuclear

Energy Used:
--2 Natural Gas for Production
--2 Hydroelectric for Production
--1 Nuclear for Production
--2 Oil for Military
--1 Imported Oil for Military
--3 Imported Oil for Commerce

Energy Imported:
--4 Oil (???)

Energy Exported:
--1 Natural gas (Japan)


USEA trading Partners :
(40 points woth of shipping units)


Korea- 5

China- 5

Pakistan- 5

Japan- 5

The Phillipines- 4

Burma- 4

UIR- 4

Australia- 4

America- 4

Dispersed- 3



Set NPC builds:

Basra 1958 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 4
Economy: (Normal spending) [3% growth]
Economic Budget [33]: (Production centres[2]: Basra 2. Oil [2]: 2x oil resource 2. Commerce [27]: 15x shipping 15, 6x national airline 12. Tourism[1]: Basra 1. Growth[1]: 1

Domestic Spending:

Level 4 social spending 1.5 points,
1x national airline 5 points,
1x Shipping unit 3 points,
Highway construction project 1 point [30% complete]
Aid to Arab League- 20 points


Military Spending:

Maintenace:
1 garrison unit 1 point, [Elite Trained]
2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1.5 point [Elite Trained]

Total= 2.5 points.

Baghdad 1958 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 5
Economy: (Normal Spending) [3% growth - 1% World Oil Crisis = 2% growth]
Economic Budget [11]: (Production Centres [4]: Baghdad 2. Oil [1]: 1 oil resource. Commerce [6]: 3x national airline 6

Domestic Spending:
Level 3 social spending 1 point,

3/5 national airline 3 points

Aid to Arab League- 5 points


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
1 garrison unit. 25 points,
4 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point,
1 artillery unit .25 points
1 Mechanized infantry division .5 points

Total= 2 points


Netherlands 1958 build
Population: 10 million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% Growth + 1 % EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget [68]: (Production Centres [20]:Rotterdam 4, Amsterdam 4, Arnheim 4, Groningen 4, Nimwegen 4. Commerce [44] 2 national airlines 4, 27 shipping units 40. Other [3]: 3 colonial points. Tourism [1]: Carribean colony 1. Growth [0]: 3x points of growth 0

Domestic Spending:
level 4 social spending 4 points,
52.5 to UN World Bank
3x National Airline- 15 points

Military Spending:

Maintenance:
2 reserve garrison units .5 points,
2 mechanized divisions 1 point,
2 coastal patrol groups .5 points,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers each) .5 points
2 escort cruisers 1 point,
1 F100 fighter wing .5 points,
1 F86D all weather fighter wing .5 points,
2 elite pilots 2 points,

Total= 6.5

China's build for 1958...

--------------------------------
TECH LEVEL 7.5 REACHED!
--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 424 industry + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 3 nuclear + 20 tourism = 507 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 424 points + 53 commerce + 7 oil + 3 nuclear + 20 tourism = 507 points total.

Other Income: 19 points.

6 points for sale of 1 unit of Lamsong Tankers to USEA
10 points for sale of tanks to Syria to form 2 armored divisions (T59 tanks)
3 points for sale of flak guns to Syria to form 1 flak division (Type 63 flak guns)

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

98 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
147 points = Level III social services
12 points = Nuclear bomb production (100 bombs a year – stockpile of 250 nukes)

262 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

None.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 7 of 10… 21 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 3 of 5… 18 / 30 points)

12 points for Advanced Pollution Controls (Year 1 of 6… 12 / 72 points)

12 points to research Ethanol Fuels

5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 1 of 5... 5 / 25 points)

168 points to construct 7 nuclear power plants.

18 points to upgrade all 3 existing nuclear power plants to Tech Level 7.5 standards.

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (80 / 80. DEBT REPAID)

12 points to Asian Economic Funds.



34 spare points available.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
61 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1959 economy:

485 industry
53 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points, 10 airline points, and 3 satellite points)
7 oil points
10 nuclear points (all at tech level 7.5 standard)
1 Ethanol point
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 569 income points for 1959.



=============================================

Breakdown of 1958 Asian Economic Funds:

Income: 26 points (12 from China, 14 from Japan)

Expeditures:

12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Burma. (Burma now has 14 shipping)
12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Phillipines. (Phillipines now has 10 shipping)
2 points for Rural Electrification of Burma (Year 1 of 2)

Sorry for the delay in my British and NPC builds, a lot on at the moment, but they should be up by wednesday guys. (I am planning to have all of British Africa semi-independent so there's a lot of builds to do)

Cheers.

British Builds 1958
Standard market economy, 1% growth, plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth.
Production Centres:

UK: 104 as follows: 16 London, 14 Birmingham, 10 Coventry, 8 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds, 3 Derby, 3 Nottingham,

Colonial: 8 as follows: 5 Caribbean, 1 Belize, 1 Atlantic and Pacific Islands, 1 Indian Ocean Islands,

TOTAL: 112 production centres

INCOME
Production Centres: 224 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign)), 5 from improved communications satellites
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
From German Nuclear Research: 6 points
From German government for ESA program: 24 points
From French government for ESA program: 10 points
Nuclear Points: 7 (Windscale, Cumbria; Hunterston, North Ayrshire; Sizewell, Suffolk; Trawsfynydd, Gwynedd, Wales; Chapelcross, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland; Hinkley Point, Somerset; Bradwell, Essex)

TOTAL: 331

EXPENDITURE
military maintenance: 65
level 5 social services for UK (52m): 52
level 5 social services for Empire (8m): 8
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance for production)
6 points for super nuclear weapons research (year 3 of 10)
24 points to continue MIRV missile program (72/72 complete)
12 points for space research (Very Heavy lift rockets) (12/48 complete)
UK and Empire Civil Defence 6 points
UK National Air Defence RADAR network 5 points
35 points to maintain missiles (150 ICBMs, 100 large ICBMs, 240 IRBMs)
5 points for tech 8 microcomputers research (year 1/5)
18 points for ESA 3 man mission research
15 points for one lander to each of Moon, Mars, Venus.
1 point to redecorate Downing Street Offices.

UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK usage only)

Early Warning Satellite Network 6 points
Improved Spy Satellite Network 6 points

UK Atomic Energy Authority
2 nuclear power stations - 48 points. (Berkeley, Gloucestershire; Dungeness, Kent)

Total: 331

---------------------------------

Britain and remaining is currently maxed out on prod centres, roll on tech level 8...

NPC builds up tomoroow afternoon.

Changes have been made to the requirements for Tech Level 8. Nations now have to spend 10 years developing microcomputers and other electronics (instead of the previous 5), and for the sake of realism no one will reach Tech Level 8 before 1970.

Discussing it with Malkyer.. my suggestion: add 10 years of electronics instead of 5, improved communications satellites, and earliest possible date of 1970 plus the requirements already in effect.

Hmm. I prefer to have slightly different conditions- mainly because it'll be just as easy to reach tech level 8 ad it was for 7.5 for small nations like Syria, Italy, France, Nigeria, Burma, Greece, or even the "-stans" nations with the current system in place (the original system plus the recently revised one).

I was thinking of adding several more conditions...

1. Level 4 social services (needs highly educated populace for all the computer and electronics prevalent in Tech 8)

2. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)

3. Develop personal computers (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

4. Have good communication networks (cable and satellite networks)



So I was thinking of the following set of conditions (with a choice between options for one or two of them)

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 20 years
2. Created a IMPROVED communications network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one (satellite and cable).
3. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
4. Has an airline and tourist industry.
5. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)
6. Develop personal computers, part of 10 year micro-electronics development (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

7th condition has 2 options (must meet either one)

7a. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years

OR

7b. Level 4 social services for more than 10 years (high education = must).

-------------------------------

Share your thoughts and feedback on this proposed ideas.

Tech Level 8 shouldn't be reached until 1975 at the earliest (as we have no tech / arms race in E20 yet unlike the RL one between USA and USSR in the 60's and 70's but this can change in E20).

I disagree, I think there is an arms race. And the whole Pollution thing is bullshit. Honestly, I don't use enough of those resources to create a substancial amount of pollution to warrant the spending for those counter-measures.

I disagree, I think there is an arms race. And the whole Pollution thing is bullshit. Honestly, I don't use enough of those resources to create a substancial amount of pollution to warrant the spending for those counter-measures.

Maybe so, but not quite on the scale of USA versus USSR arms / tech race *yet*.

South America does have its pollution problems though. The rainforest being destroyed. The mega-city of Sao Paulo.

No to the pollution. As for #7, both should be seperate requirements, not one or the other. I know it will be difficult for the bigger nations to accomplish 7a but its not supposed to be easy.

Even with this, I don't think it is enough. I'll try to think of some other things to.

Perhaps there could be a Social Services 3.5 that could cost 4 points and pay for level 3 plus education, without the healthcare. Healthcare wouldn't be that big a deal, especially for big nations.

1. Level 4 social services (needs highly educated populace for all the computer and electronics prevalent in Tech 8)

level 3 spending assumes that the majority of the population has high school diplomas and a large percentage also have college degrees. Which is adequate.



2. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)


pollution control measures like catalytic converters hit the market at tech level 8, not at tech level 7.5, as do most of the other pollution control measures


3. Develop personal computers (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)


Apple II hit the market in 1979, the internet was invented in the 1970s as a way for the US National Command Authority to communicate with major headquarters in the event of a nuclear war. Everything else comes from that.



4. Have good communication networks (cable and satellite networks)
fiberoptic and cable networks came in as or after tech level 8 was reached, not before



1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 20 years

that is reasonable



2. Created a IMPROVED communications network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one (satellite and cable).

improved communications satellites make the rest possible



3. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.

already in place


4. Has an airline and tourist industry.

also already in place


5. Substantial pollution controls in place (must have advanced pollution controls researched)

not reasonable for reasons above



6. Develop personal computers, part of 10 year micro-electronics development (even Apple II-E analogs will be fine)

see above, and the 10 years of applied research leads to that.. mainframes lead to PCs actually



7th condition has 2 options (must meet either one)

7a. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years

already in place


OR

7b. Level 4 social services for more than 10 years (high education = must).

keep the level 3 social services for 20 years or level 4 services for 10 years (either is acceptable)

By the way, I am old enough to remember all of this (sigh).

Another analogy for you
Tech level 6 FM radio and black and white television
Tech level 6.5 recorded television programing
Tech level 7 8 track tapes and color television
Tech level 7.5 cassette tapes
Tech level 8 VHS tapes, satellite network television (CNN)
Tech level 8.5 CDs and the consumer internet

No to the pollution. As for #7, both should be seperate requirements, not one or the other. I know it will be difficult for the bigger nations to accomplish 7a but its not supposed to be easy.

Even with this, I don't think it is enough. I'll try to think of some other things to.

My reasoning behind condition 7a and 7b...

Remember what GB said earlier? Industry isn't entirely necessary for Tech advancement to level 8 and beyond (RL examples support this). This also allows the bigger nations to advance without being stuck at Tech Level 7.5 forever (being stuck at negative growth despite pollution measures).

Providing Level 4 social services for large nations will be just about as difficult. Take India for example- it will take a while before India can afford Level 4 social services. It will need roughly 200 - 250 points EVERY YEAR just to sustain Level 4 social services, which India won't be able to do for a long time, especially that India has an index of over 300 on population density which means -3% growth from just population.

Add that -3% to the pollution already present from India's coal power plants means India will probably only have 1% positive growth WITH government cuts mode. That means India will probably need like 30 or 40 years before it can even afford Level 4 social services.

---------------------------------

In addition, I think it is very unrealistic that nations suddenly can't research technologies because they aren't tech level 8.

Here's an example...

Nation X meets all requirements for tech level 8 advancement.
Nation Y meets all but one or two requirements for tech level 8 advancement.

Both nations have finished electronics and advanced pollution control research.

It isn't realistic that Nation Y suddenly can't research tech level 8 electronics or tech level 8 pollution controls while nation X can even though they theoretically have the exact same technologies already researched.

Nation X has a smaller economy and population, and therefore much less "money" and "scientists" to devote towards technology research, while Nation Y has a good amount of money and scientists to fully utilize its research labs (which should actually allow nation Y to continue up the tech tree like in real life).

It'd be like God or something suddenly coming down to Russia in RL and says "Sorry, you have not passed the requirements for the next tech level. Therefore all your research efforts are immediately frozen. You cannot develop any further in your research and science labs."

BAM! Russia gets stuck on the research tree when in actuality it should be able to continue going up the tree. See what I mean?

Also I feel that 1975 should be the earliest anyone reaches Tech 8, instead of 1970 (as we don't have the tech race of the Cold War- the build-up and one-upmanship between the USA and USSR... yet in E20).

Cross-posting this in the Economic thread as well.

I disagree, as we are 7 years ahead of schedule as it is, and we do have a substantial and even potential deadlier arms race is in effect. So 1970 is fine, as its exactly 10 years before tech level 8 was reached historically.

As tech level 7 was reached in 1948, and tech level 6 in 1938, this is pretty much consistant with the march of progress through the game.

My reasoning behind condition 7a and 7b...

Remember what GB said earlier? Industry isn't entirely necessary for Tech advancement to level 8 and beyond (RL examples support this). This also allows the bigger nations to advance without being stuck at Tech Level 7.5 forever (being stuck at negative growth despite pollution measures).

except that you are evading the historical model, which does have smaller nations with a higher proportion of their GDP available for discretionary spending reaching tech level 8. Israel and Norway reached tech level 8 before Russia did, and Japan, Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea reached tech level 8 before China has (and arguably the PRC still is at tech level 7.5)



Providing Level 4 social services for large nations will be just about as difficult. Take India for example- it will take a while before India can afford Level 4 social services. It will need roughly 200 - 250 points EVERY YEAR just to sustain Level 4 social services, which India won't be able to do for a long time, especially that India has an index of over 300 on population density which means -3% growth from just population.

which is why we should keep it at social level 3


Add that -3% to the pollution already present from India's coal power plants means India will probably only have 1% positive growth WITH government cuts mode. That means India will probably need like 30 or 40 years before it can even afford Level 4 social services.

Which is why India will also need help in the form of technology transfers, which are likely to be more forthcoming if they stay peaceful for a while.

---------------------------------

In addition, I think it is very unrealistic that nations suddenly can't research technologies because they aren't tech level 8.

Here's an example...

Nation X meets all requirements for tech level 8 advancement.
Nation Y meets all but one or two requirements for tech level 8 advancement.

Both nations have finished electronics and advanced pollution control research.

It isn't realistic that Nation Y suddenly can't research tech level 8 electronics or tech level 8 pollution controls while nation X can even though they theoretically have the exact same technologies already researched.

Nation X has a smaller economy and population, and therefore much less "money" and "scientists" to devote towards technology research, while Nation Y has a good amount of money and scientists to fully utilize its research labs (which should actually allow nation Y to continue up the tech tree like in real life).

It'd be like God or something suddenly coming down to Russia in RL and says "Sorry, you have not passed the requirements for the next tech level. Therefore all your research efforts are immediately frozen. You cannot develop any further in your research and science labs."

BAM! Russia gets stuck on the research tree when in actuality it should be able to continue going up the tree. See what I mean?

You have to have the tech base to move to the next tech base unless you get a technology transfer.

You have to have the tech base to move to the next tech base unless you get a technology transfer.

Thats what I'm trying to address.

Lets clarify another example (hopefully this will make more sense).

Situation:

Year 1970.

USA reaches Tech level 8.
China is permanently stuck at Tech level 7.5 because of permament negative growth.

USA and China have equal electronics technology. (both finish researching Micro-Computers, Electronics, etc.) as well as having AEW, radar, space tech, same missile tech (Solid fuel and the like).

Then the USA reaches tech level 8, which allows it to research tech level 8 versions of electronics, AEW, missile tech, etc. China suddenly can't match the USA even though it has the same technology base (exact same overall technologies already researched).

Fast forward to 1980.

USA finishes all tech level 8 technology research trees.
China still cannot research any tech level 8 stuff EVEN THOUGH all tech level 7.5 technologies are ALREADY researched (filled all the tech bases for 7.5)

Fast forward to 2000.

USA reaches Tech level 9.
China is still stuck at tech level 7.5 and cannot research tech level 8 technologies.

This example shows the unrealistic issue that this rule will have. Mainly because in RL, China would continue on its research paths as the US.

RL world function example:

Suppose China and USA already have all tech level 7.5 electronics stuff finished. Then the option to research tech level 8 electronics opens up (say, lasers or establishing an Internet).

The USA and China has the technology prequisites and skill to research "how to" do lasers and Internet.

In RL, China would press onwards and probably finish laser and internet tech at the same time the USA does. China won't be suddenly "blocked" by an invisible "barrier" preventing it from researching the next stage of electronics or such.

Same goes for any other technologies, really.

----------------------------

Besides, having to rely on small nations to "tech-whore" or pump you up to tech level 8 seems just a tad silly.

It'd be like the USA relying on, say, Cuba or even Haiti to pump it up to tech level 9 or 10 in RL. Or in E20 terms, having a fully industrialized Belize or Guatemela or Honduras pump up the USA and FNS to tech level 9, 10, 11, and so on.

This will be what China and India will be forced to do in this system- being forced to milk the USEA, Japan, Korea, etc. for tech advances because China suddenly can't continue its research efforts (again insert "ridiclious" here).

Yes, technology trades can and do happen in RL, but an entire nation being dependent on a smaller nation for ALL of its technology needs is simply crazy. Do you see RL China or RL Russia or RL India suddenly becoming 100% dependent on Japan, Finland, or Burma (respectively) for all of their technological needs?

Hardly.

---------------------------------------

My apologies if I seem like I'm rambling, but there's a few issues that just don't seem to jive.

Remember my debate last week about the larger nations being permamently stuck at tech level 7.5 forever because of a permament negative growth (because of pollution) not allowing them to reach the 75% productivity requirement to advance to the next tech level? Hence all this ranting about "suddenly not being able to continue research efforts because of an invisible barrier" issue.

Since when does pollution prevent RL nations from developing better technologies and attempts to become more advanced (to combat the pollution itself *AND* improve living standards like medicine). In fact, the US in RL is the world's largest polluter and the US isn't suddenly thrust into static technology development (not reaching Tech 9 by 2010 - 2020 in RL), is it?

except US pollution has not yet reached the point were it is a serious drag on the economy (tough of asthma patients though)

seriously though, the US is at tech level 8.5, very nearly tech level 9, as is parts of Western Europe and Japan, while India and China are on the borderline of 7.5/8 and much of what they have in the way of technology was invented elsewhere

and smaller nations jumping the tech level of larger nations isn't as unreal as it seems.. Japanese technology transfers (building production centers) in the Asian Tigers (including Indonesia, with a bigger population) have made a substantial difference, as has Japanese investment in China and India. Both of which are 10 times the size of the Japanese population.

I understand that.

I don't mind Tech level 8 being hard to attain. Thats how it should be.

HOWEVER, under this system, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for large nations to reach tech level 8, no matter how hard the nations try because of pollution preventing these large nations from reaching 75% economic productivity requirement. Even if these large nations implement at "Pollution Controls" technology which lowers pollution effects, they will still be unable to reach level 8 because of permanent negative growth simply because there's too much pollution that even the best growth mode (government cuts mode) can't offset.

Tech level 8 should be hard to attain, yes. But not impossible to attain, no.

I understand that.

I don't mind Tech level 8 being hard to attain. Thats how it should be.

HOWEVER, under this system, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for large nations to reach tech level 8, no matter how hard the nations try because of pollution preventing these large nations from reaching 75% economic productivity requirement. Even if these large nations implement at "Pollution Controls" technology which lowers pollution effects, they will still be unable to reach level 8 because of permanent negative growth simply because there's too much pollution that even the best growth mode (government cuts mode) can't offset.

Tech level 8 should be hard to attain, yes. But not impossible to attain, no.


Once tech level 8 is attained by the leading nations, it will become easier on the others as the technology transfers will occur much easier. In addition, I mentioned that rules would be provided at that time to allow the real world models to work. So it will not be impossible at that time.

Once tech level 8 is attained by the leading nations, it will become easier on the others as the technology transfers will occur much easier. In addition, I mentioned that rules would be provided at that time to allow the real world models to work. So it will not be impossible at that time.

I am willing to settle for that.

I just do not want any nations or players (myself included, I admit) to become stuck in a loop or being unable to advance any further than we are. It would simply make the game too easy for the leading technological nations.

How fun would it be if quite a number of nations are stuck with WW-2 era weapons while a few nations are Star Trek-like in technology?

Thats why I'm fighting to try to keep the "impossiblity loop" from happening in any economic, military, diplomatic, or other rules for E20 or any other game I play (online or off-line).

=============================================

Breakdown of 1958 Asian Economic Funds:

Income: 26 points (12 from China, 14 from Japan)

Expeditures:

12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Burma. (Burma now has 14 shipping)
12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Phillipines. (Phillipines now has 10 shipping)
2 points for Rural Electrification of Burma (Year 1 of 2)

The USEA has donated 4 points towards the fund this year and will do so for the foreseeable future.

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available: 69 -78% productivity-

Commerce:
2 national airlines, 4 international airlines, 27 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 10, Nantes 8, Lille 8, Marseilles 8, Toulouse 8, Rouen 7, Vichy 10, Lyon 7

Tech Level: 7
-----------------------------------------------
Income:
Production Centeres: 69*2 = 138 points

Commerce:Total= 50 points
Shipping= 40 points
National Airline= 4 points
International Airline= 6 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Investment Returns:
Ends 1968:
Northwest Africa (Mali, Senegal and Guinea): 12 points
Ends 1969:
(Burkina Faso, Ghana, Senegal): 12 points

Total= 216 Points
-----------------------------------------------
Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 36 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Extra Intelligence Budget= 5 points
ESA Research= 10 points
Electronics Industry= 5 points (Year V)
Nuclear Reactor in Chinon=24 points

Military build:
1 Mirage IV Light Bomber= 3 points

Yugoslavian Military Program (phase 3)= 10 points
Yugoslavian Military Maintenance= 4 points
Albo-Kosovan Military Maintenance= 2.75 points

African Aid:
Level IV social Services (Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Burkina Faso)= 5.5 points
Level IV Social Spending (Congo)= 6.75 points

Aid to the UIR= 15 points

Comprimise to Belgium: 6 points

Offered Intelligence aid to the Balkans: 10 points

Offered investment to the Ivory Coast: 24 points
-----------------------------------------------
Energy: (till 1960)

Needed:
Production: 7 points
Military: 1.8 oil point
Commerce: 2.5 oil points

Total= 6 energy points, 4.3 oil points

Provided:
Nuclear: 1 point
Hydroelectric: 1 point

Imported:
4.3 oil points (priority given to oil from UIR and Algeria)
5 energy points:
4 natural gas (Priority Algeria)
1 Coal (Priority Europe (Germany, Burgundy, Czechoslovakia)

Cost: 6.8 production points
-----------------------------------------------
Growth:
Normal Spending: 3%
Pollution: From population: -1%
EEC: 1%

Growth=216*.03= 6.48----> 6 production centres
----------------------------------------------
Tech 7.5 or 8:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of maximum economic productivity for at least 5 years (Year 1)
3. Has placed a man in orbit either by itself or in conjuction with 2 other nations. (Done)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Done)
6. Spent 5 point a year for 5 years on building an electronics industry (Year 5)

Expected Tech 7.5: 1958 (end of this year)

As promised the (ever increasing) list of British NPCs:

Gambia
Pop: 300,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), 6 points from 6 shipping units,
Spending: level 4 social .25 points; .25 points maintenance, 0.5 points to continue a unit of missile boats (1.5/3), 6 points for 2 shipping units,
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 2 to other African nations, 1 Commonwealth, 2 RoW.

Togo
Pop: 1.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa), 5 points from 5 shipping units
Spending: 0.75 points for level 4 social services, 2 points maintenance, 3 points for a shipping unit, 2.75 points to start another.
Military: 2 inf div, 40 miss boats, 1 pilot, 1 BAC lightning, 1 armoured brigade.
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa, 2 Commonwealth, 1 RoW

Ghana
Pop: 6.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa), 3 points from 3 shipping units
Spending: level 4 social services 3 points, .5 points to maintain infantry division and garrison, .5 points to finish a shipping unit (2.75/3), 3 points for another.
Military: 1 inf div, garrison
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa

Senegal
Pop: 3.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at Dakar, 10 from 10 shipping units,
Spending: 1.5 points for level 4 social services, 1.5 points maintenance, 3 points to France in loan repayments (year 4 out of 15), .25 finishes a squadron of destroyers (5/5), 3 points for a shipping unit, 3 for another, 1.75 to start another,
Military: 1 inf div, 1 miss boat, pilot, BAC Lightnings.
Shipping: 2 to UK, 3 to France, 2 to Africa, 2 to RoW. 1 to Commonwealth.
Growth: 1

Sierra Leone
Pop: 2.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Freetown, 3 points from 3 shipping units.
Spending: Level 4 services 1 points, .25 maintenance. 2 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 1.75 points to start another.
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 RoW.

Northern Cyprus
Pop: 110,000
Tech: 6
Income 1 resource point (fishing)
Spending: 0 (actually 0.05, but negligible) points for level 4 social services, 0.25 maintenance, .75 to start a shipping unit (.75/3)
Military: mountain brigade,
Growth: 0

Southern Cyprus
Pop: 430,000
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at Nicosia, 1 point from 1 shipping unit
Spending: 0.25 points on level 4 social services, 0.5 points to finish one shipping unit (3/3), 0.25 points maintenance. 3 points for another shipping unit, 1 point to start a final shipping unit (1/3)
Military: 1 mountain bde
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 RoW

Yemen
Pop: 4.8 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at San’a, 4 shipping units
Spending: 2.5 points on level 4 social services, .5 maintenance, 2 points to finish a unit of missile boats (3/3), 3 points for another.
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 2 RoW
Military: 2 inf div
Growth: 0

Kuwait
Pop: 250,000
Tech: 6
Income: 4 oil points, 5 shipping units
Spending: 0.5 points on level 5 social services, .25 points maintenance, 1.5 points to finish a unit of missile boats (3/3), 6 points for 2 shipping units. 0.75 points to start another (0.75/3)
Shipping: 2 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 2 RoW
Military: 1 marine bde
Growth: 0

Oman (and Western Arabia, UAE)
Pop: 2.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres, 4 shipping units, 8 oil points
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, 3.5 points maintenance, 3 points to finish a mech div (4/4), 6 points for 2 shipping units, 1 point to start another.
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 2 infantry divisions, 2 missile boat units, light missile cruiser, a destroyer squadron and a frigate flotilla, pilot, BAC lightning
Growth: 0

Ceylon
Pop: 9.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 4.5 points on level 4 social services, 1.5 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Kenya
Pop: 7.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 8 prod centres, airport, cruise terminal.
Spending: 4 points on level 4 social services, 9 points for 3 shipping units, 2 points for 2 inf divs, 2 points for a pilot (2/2), 1 point to start some BAC lightnings.
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 1

Uganda
Pop: 6.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 6 prod centres, 1 resource point (coffee)
Spending: 3.5 points on level 4 social services, 3 points for 3 inf div. 2 points for a pilot, 4 points for an airport,
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 1

Tanzania
Pop: 9.8 million
Tech: 6
Income: 10 prod centres, airport.
Spending: 5 points on level 4 social services, 12 points for 4 shipping units, 2 points for 2 inf divs. 2 points for a pilot
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 1

Chad
Pop: 2.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 1.5 points on level 4 social services, 1 point for an inf div, 3 points for a shipping unit, .5 points to start another inf div.
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Central African Republic
Pop: 1.5 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 prod centres
Spending: 1 point on level 4 social services, 1 point for an inf div, 2 for a pilot
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Cameroon
Pop: 5.5 million
Tech: 6
Income: 6 prod centres
Spending: 3 points on level 4 social services, 6 points for 2 shipping units, 2 points for 2 inf divs, 1 point towards a unit of missile boats (1/3)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Congo
Pop: 950,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 prod centre
Spending: .5 points on level 4 social services, 1 point for 1 inf div, .5 points towards an airport (.5/4)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Gabon
Pop: 450,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 oil point
Spending: .25 points on level 4 social services, .75 towards an inf div.
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Equatorial Guinea
Pop: 250,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 oil point, 1 resource point (cocoa)
Spending: .5 points on level 5 social services, 1.5 points towards a marine brigade.
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Guinea-Bissau
Pop: 520,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 prod centre
Spending: .5 points on level 4 social services, 1 point for an inf div, 0.5 points towards a shipping unit (0.5/3)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Rwanda
Pop: 2.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 1.5 points on level 4 social services, 2 points for 2 inf div, 2.5 points towards an airport (2.5/4)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Burundi
Pop: 2.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 1.5 points on level 4 social services, 2 point for 2 inf div, 2.5 points towards an airport (2.5/4)
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Is anyone doing the builds for Kurdistan or Arabia/Baghdad? I was wondering if I could take them over since I give them substantial financial aid.

Does anyone have any extra OIL for sale? One or two oil points would be plenty.

Arabia has plenty. From what I know, I'm the only one who gets oil from them and they have 20+ points. I only get 7.

I need a point or two from them as well. I think Ato-Sara has done Baghdads, but I'm not sure about Kurdistan.

EDIT: In the thinking about TL advancements and such, would "brain drains" have any significant effect? I'd imagine for Syria it probably balances out, with some going overseas (Europe and US primarily) but recieving students from other Arab nations (Jordan, Arab Federation) and whatnot, due to Level 5 services for 10+years.

I need a point or two from them as well. I think Ato-Sara has done Baghdads, but I'm not sure about Kurdistan.

EDIT: In the thinking about TL advancements and such, would "brain drains" have any significant effect? I'd imagine for Syria it probably balances out, with some going overseas (Europe and US primarily) but recieving students from other Arab nations (Jordan, Arab Federation) and whatnot, due to Level 5 services for 10+years.

Yah, I do Baghdad and Basra for that matter.
On the Subjest of NPC builds, could someone please give me Burma's last known build so that I can start handling it's builds.

Parthini']Arabia has plenty. From what I know, I'm the only one who gets oil from them and they have 20+ points. I only get 7.

OOC: Wow, I figured the Middle East would be exporting every ounce of oil when the crisis hit...

IC:
The UR would like to arrange a trade agreement with the Arab Federation for 2 oil points for a good price (I don't know what they will charge).

OOC: Wow, I figured the Middle East would be exporting every ounce of oil when the crisis hit...

IC:
The UR would like to arrange a trade agreement with the Arab Federation for 2 oil points for a good price (I don't know what they will charge).

remember, for a while, Saudi oil wasn't available.. which caused the whole crisis...luckily the world had a lot of oil available elsewhere at the time (which is why prices only went up and a recession occured instead of a Depression)

Yah, I do Baghdad and Basra for that matter.
On the Subjest of NPC builds, could someone please give me Burma's last known build so that I can start handling it's builds.

I think Lesser Ribenia did it, if not, look on the first page of the old economic thread for details on Burma as of 1944

I think Lesser Ribenia did it, if not, look on the first page of the old economic thread for details on Burma as of 1944

Ok thanks, ill just have to extrapolate from that date then.

I thought that the SCT dealt with it for a while, but apparently not. We settled on 10 merchant units (due to British and SCT investment) but you may have to extrapolate the prod centres forwards from the past. Sorry about that.

The Arab Federation agrees and decides 3 points for two oil would be a reasonable price for a friend and ally.

OOC: Anyone have any idea how many points the old Saudi Arabia had? I haven't found a build in a really long time.

Same with Kurdistan for that matter.

China's build for 1958...

--------------------------------
TECH LEVEL 7.5 REACHED!
--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 424 industry + 55 commerce + 7 oil + 3 nuclear + 20 tourism = 509 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 424 points + 55 commerce + 7 oil + 3 nuclear + 20 tourism = 509 points total.

Other Income: 19 points.

6 points for sale of 1 unit of Lamsong Tankers to USEA
10 points for sale of tanks to Syria to form 2 armored divisions (T59 tanks)
3 points for sale of flak guns to Syria to form 1 flak division (Type 63 flak guns)

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

98 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
147 points = Level III social services
12 points = Nuclear bomb production (100 bombs a year – stockpile of 250 nukes)

262 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

None.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 7 of 10… 21 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 3 of 5… 18 / 30 points)

12 points for Advanced Pollution Controls (Year 1 of 6… 12 / 72 points)

12 points to research Ethanol Fuels

5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 1 of 5... 5 / 25 points)

168 points to construct 7 nuclear power plants.

15 points to construct a 8th nuclear power plant (15 / 24 points)

18 points to upgrade all 3 existing nuclear power plants to Tech Level 7.5 standards.

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (80 / 80. DEBT REPAID)

8 points to Asian Economic Funds.

25 points to the Asian Space Program.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
61 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1959 economy:

485 industry
55 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points, 10 airline points, and 5 satellite points)
7 oil points
10 nuclear points (all at tech level 7.5 standard)
1 Ethanol point
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 571 income points for 1959.



=============================================

Breakdown of 1958 Asian Economic Funds:

Income: 26 points (8 from China, 14 from Japan, 4 from USEA)

Expeditures:

12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Burma. (Burma now has 14 shipping)
12 points for 4 merchant shipping for Phillipines. (Phillipines now has 10 shipping)
2 points for Rural Electrification of Burma (Year 1 of 2)

------------------------------------

Revised build, allocated my surplus points, and edited commerce to reflect Improved Communication Satellites the SCT has completed.

Pakistan, 1959 Build, Tech Level 7
Spending Type: Market Economy Normal, Growth: 2% (normally 3%, but extra 1% from SCT would make it 4%, but pollution due to coal and other stuff, it's another -2%)

1959 Budget:
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (45 production centers: 8 Agra, 5 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar [3 in Hyderabad from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 160 points

Energy:
12 Coal
2 Oil
1 Natural Gas

Population: 400 million people

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 2 (Highly Trained)
x1 Mechanized .75 (Highly Trained)
x14 Pilots 3.5 (Expert)
x4 C47 1
x2 Hal Marut 2
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1.25 (Highly Trained)
x25 Light Infantry 12.5 (Highly Trained)
x17 Armored 12.75 (Highly Trained)
x3 Infantry 1.5 (Highly Trained)
x2 Parachute Divisions 1 point (Highly Trained)
x9 Mustard Gas "batches" 0
x1 Intelligence Agency 5 points
Total Spent: 46

Total Remaining: 114 points

Social Services:
Level II Social Services for everyone (80 points)

Total Spent: 126

Total Remaining: 34 points

Construction:
x1 Nuclear Program (Year 3/3) 24 points
x1 Home-grown electronics industry (Year 5) 5 points
Total Spent: 155

Total Remaining: 5

Military Purchases:
none

Total Spent:189

Total Remaining: 5

Energy Costs:
2 points for 2 oil points

Total Spent: 157

Total Remaining: 3

Foreign Aid:
SCT: 3 points
Predicted 1959 Budget (Note: Taking into the end of National Effort):
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (45 production centers: 8 Agra, 5 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar, 3 Quetta [3 in Quetta from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 163 points

Progress Towards Tech Level 8:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Year 3/3)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry. (Year 5/10)

Tech Level 7.5 In 1960

1959 Syrian Budget-Tech Level 7.5 achieved, includes tenative Palestine Numbers
Population: 7 million

INCOME: 68.75
Production: 28 (14 centers, 3 Damascus, 3 Beirut, 2 Haifa, 2 Aleppo, 2 Tripoli, 1 Homs, 1 Latakia
Tourism: .75
Commerce: 40
*economy completely maximized in every way possible at this time

Consistent Spending: 23.75
Level 5 Social Services: 7
Military Maintenance: 7
Syrian Civil Defense and Radar: 1.25
ALADN: 3.5
Intel Maintenance: 5

Other Spending: 45
French Artillery Equipment: 2.5
Chinese Military Equipment: 3
French Naval Construction (light missile cruiser+2 destroyers): 14
SFIR Funds: 1.5
Nuclear power plant (near Aleppo): 24

Arab League

Halfway Large ICBM tech, halfway through Mercury Orbital tech. No missions. 12 points for upgrading smaller members' militaries (any NPC's want to use it?)

Airlines - Represents not really so much a single airline, as government subsidies, building the airports, and all that goes with it. Provides 2 build points year if a national airline, and 2 build points a year for international airline at tech levels 5 and 6. At tech level 7, for the cost of 1 point for every 10 million people, nations can construct large airports and secondary commuter airfields. Each airline unit is worth 2 points per airline unit constructed, and up to 10 points can be added this way. At tech level 8, the overnight shipping industry becomes a major force in the economy, and up to 15 points can be added to the economy.

I think this description is really confused and seriously needs clarifying.

First off the National and International Airlines provide exactly the same amount of points even though international airlines cost 1 point more, which seems kind of pointless.

Next it doesn't say what these large airports and secondary commuter airfields actually do.

I think this description is really confused and seriously needs clarifying.

First off the National and International Airlines provide exactly the same amount of points even though international airlines cost 1 point more, which seems kind of pointless.

Next it doesn't say what these large airports and secondary commuter airfields actually do.

I second this. I want clarification on these.

Perhaps international airlines should give 3 points commerce income of just 2.

Arab League

Halfway Large ICBM tech, halfway through Mercury Orbital tech. No missions. 12 points for upgrading smaller members' militaries (any NPC's want to use it?)

Halfway through Large ICBM's? I thought we started last year. Do you need more funding from the UR? Also, to counter Turkish armament, will you be producing nuclear weapons now (you can have up to 50 by the terms of the treaty).

We finished regular ICBMs last year, started Large ones. New mission techs open up with ICBMs, so some points went there. Its actually more than halfway, but not done yet.

For points, I dont think we can use anymore, but if you want to squeeze a point in somewhere for a Sputnik-esque mission you could (or a manned suborbital)

Nuclear weapons are still up for debate (the King's against it, but many in the Majlis's want it. The program wouldnt start until at least 1960.

I second this. I want clarification on these.

Perhaps international airlines should give 3 points commerce income of just 2.

same volume of traffic... international airlines fewer flights, larger passenger loads because they are 4 engine aircrat, while national airlines are more flights, smaller loads, cheaper planes as they are 2 engine aircraft.

At tech level 7, you start getting turboprop and then jet airliners, which fly far more often, make more stops, carry more passengers faster. A substantial increase in traffic and commerce overall.

So a tech level 6 airliner takes nearly 24 hours to fly from New York to London, including fuel stops, while a DC8 or Boeing 707 does it in about 12 hours. Which means the jet can fly every day, while the prop plane every other day or every 3 days.

At tech level 8 you get jumbo jets like the Boeing 747, and computer assisted reservations. Airlines handle far more passengers then before.

Just as importantly, air traffic control systems improve at each tech level, increasing the volume of traffic that can be handled.

Halfway through Large ICBM's? I thought we started last year. Do you need more funding from the UR? Also, to counter Turkish armament, will you be producing nuclear weapons now (you can have up to 50 by the terms of the treaty).

If each of you get 50 then Turkey should get 100, otherwise its two to one, throws off the spirit behind the agreement.

If each of you get 50 then Turkey should get 100, otherwise its two to one, throws off the spirit behind the agreement.

First of all, Syria doesn't even know if it's producing nuclear weapons, and even if he does, I doubt he's going to build 50 bombs.

Second of all, Turkey signed the agreement. We will not change the treaty because of you reconsidered. And actually the spirit of the agreement was to get the UR out of this Turkish-Arab conflict so we can focus on Africa. 50 bombs could wipe out Turkey anyway, so why would you care if there's overstock?

same volume of traffic... international airlines fewer flights, larger passenger loads because they are 4 engine aircrat, while national airlines are more flights, smaller loads, cheaper planes as they are 2 engine aircraft.

At tech level 7, you start getting turboprop and then jet airliners, which fly far more often, make more stops, carry more passengers faster. A substantial increase in traffic and commerce overall.

So a tech level 6 airliner takes nearly 24 hours to fly from New York to London, including fuel stops, while a DC8 or Boeing 707 does it in about 12 hours. Which means the jet can fly every day, while the prop plane every other day or every 3 days.

At tech level 8 you get jumbo jets like the Boeing 747, and computer assisted reservations. Airlines handle far more passengers then before.

Just as importantly, air traffic control systems improve at each tech level, increasing the volume of traffic that can be handled.

I have another question.

If both airlines are equal, then it would logically make sense for nations to have all of its air commerce national airlines and no international airlines.

10 national airlines = cost 20 points
10 international airlines = cost 30 points

So basically you can build 1.5 times as many national airlines than international airlines, which means you can have 1.5 times as many airline commerce income if you had "all-national" air commerce instead of using international airlines.

I thought this would be better...

2 points income per 1 national airline (same as initial cost)
3 points income per 1 international airline (same as initial cost)

Keep in mind, the extra point income from international airlines would be tourists and international business-people spending more money than "natives" using national airlines. Gift shops, international corporate meetings, tourism hotels (airline sponsored), and so forth.

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1959 builds:

Population 37 million (Using 1.5% growth rate, calculated since 1950 and based on possible Geohive population graphs for South Korea, though it was hard to get an exact count).

Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%)
Oil Shock is over, so normal growth (4%). But, using pollution rules, I now am at 3% mainly because of my population....

43 points Production centers: Seoul 4 Pusan 4 Pyongyang 4 Vladivostok 4 Kwangju 4 Taegu 1

19 shipping units= 30 Points (rounded, factoring in 5% sattelite bonus)

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points (rounded, factoring 5% sattelite bonus)

and 3 points of tourism (Seoul, Pyongyang, Vladivostok International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

82 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 4 social spending- 12 points

Foreign Aid- 11 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)
2 points to Asian Economic Fund

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigades .25 points
2 HQ units- 2pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Korean Air Force:

1 Avro Arrow unit- 1pt
1 Dassault Mirage III unit-1 pt
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25
4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2
1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 21 Points (Estimated)

3 points for Civil Defense

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

Things to buy-

1 point to a new average pilot (Air Reserve)
12 points to develop Generation 2 ICBM missiles
12 points for 4 flak groups (in name only, in reality, they'll be SAM units)


Oil Points-

2 Imported from CAR-2pts
1 from UIR-1 point

OOC: I read one of those historical population graphs...I was stumped...

Requirements-Tech 7.5:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Got it)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (56% productivity, need to get crackin'!)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yeah)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Yeah)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Oh yeah.)
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Done!)

Trade Partners for 1954-

3 USEA
2 China
2 Japan
2 FAS
2 UIR
2 Australia
2 Burma
1 Dispersed

Japanese Build 1959

Population: 91 million
Growth: 2% (with pollution)
Production Centers: 105
Shipping and Air: 44
Tourism: 9
Oil/Energy Points needed: 4
Total: 157

Lvl. 4 Social Safety Net:45

Maintenance: 28.75

6 Frigate Flotillas
4 Elite Light Infantry
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
2 Expert Pilots
7 Elite Pilots
5 Mirage III's
3 Destroyer Squadrons
6 Garrison Units
4 Elite Mountain Brigade
1 Light Missile Cruiser
2 Tech 7.5 Frigate Units
Left: 82.50

Build:

Reactors: 24
Production Center: 24
3 Mechanized Infantry Divisions: 12
1 Antiaircraft Cruiser: 6
1 ASW helicopter Unit

Aid:
7.25 to ASA
7.25 to AEF


Shipping:

5 to China
5 to Pakistan
5 to Korea
5 to USEA
5 to Phillipines
5 to Burma

Being Retired (anyone want them?)

6 Frigate Units
3 Destroyer Squadrons

German Build 1959
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 148, 2 oil points, 8 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Improved Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 5 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 4(1) Kiel, 5 Hannover, 4 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 5 Saarbrucken, 5 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

Regular Spending: 296 Industry+8 Nuke Power+55 Commerce+9 tourist+10 Points Scandic Compensation=378 points

Maintenance (142):
*reserve* 28 Highly Trained Infantry Divisions-21
6 Elite Mechanized Inf-11
10 Elite Armored-10
8 Special Forces Paratrooper-8
2 Special Forces Light Infantry-2
14 Elite Mech Flak-14
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

3 HQ-3

35 Elite Pilots-17.5
5 regular Pilots-free

4 Arado Ar 232-1 point
6 Do 337-3
20 TA 202-10 points
18 TA200-9 points
11 BAC Lightning-11
3 M107-3
2 Cargo Helicopters-.5

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

3 Attack Submarine-1.5

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (44):
Level 4 for 88 Million-44 points

Civilian Builds (138):

Electronics Research (Year 1/10)-5 points

2 Nuclear Power Plants-48 points

Space Plane Research-12 points (Year 4/4)
Luftwaffe Space Plane Mission-4 points

Improved Spy Satellite Network-6 points

Improved Communications Satellite Network-6 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-32 points
ESA Manned Orbital Labratory-20 points

Joint German-South African Space-3 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

4% growth-15 factories (1 repair Kiel)

20 points to Arab League
5 points to Kurdistan

Military Builds (21):

1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-7 Points (13/30) (year 2/4)
1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-7 Points (13/30) (year 2/4)
1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-7 Points (13/30) (year 2/4)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1959
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 162, 10 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Improved Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 5 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 5 Kiel, 5 Hannover, 10 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 7 Frankfurt, 5 Mainz, 5 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 5 Saarbrucken, 5 Stuttgart, 10 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 5 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 5 Posen, 3 Innsbruck, 2 Lubeck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Costs 1959 (Practace)

Energy Needed-24
Military-7
Production-14
Commerce-3

Energy Available-17
Nuclear Power-8
Coal-1
Hydroelectric-2
Natural Gas-2
Oil-4

Energy Imported-7
Oil-7 (From Saudi Arabia)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trade Partners

40 Points

Britain-5
China-5
United States-2
Egypt-3
Syria-2
Arabia-3
France-1
Brazil-3
FNS-2
Australia-2
South Africa-4
Nigeria-3
Scandic Union-3
Other-2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NPC Builds

Arab Federation Build 1959
Population: 6 Million
Tech Level: 5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% Arab League
Production: 2 Baghdad, 1 Damman, 1 Riyadh, 11 shipping units, 1 international airline, 2 national airline, 10 surplus oil

8 industry+17 commerce+10 oil+15 German=50 points

Spending:

Military (18):
2 Highly Trained Garrison-1
1 Highly Trained Armored Divison-.75
4 Highly Trained Light Infantry-2
2 Highly Trained Artillery-1

4 Highly Trained Pilots-1
4 TA 200-2

1 Coastal Patrol-.25

Intelligence Service-10 points

Domestic (32):
Level 4 Spending-3 points

Air Terminal (Baghdad)-4 points

Improving Transportation-14 points

Finish Airline-2 points

3 shipping units-9 points

Growth - 1 Factory


Energy:
21 oil
5 Natural gas

used
1 natural gas
2 oil

exported
7 oil (Germany)
2 oil (UR)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE

TA 200 and BAC Lightnings for sale

I have another question.

If both airlines are equal, then it would logically make sense for nations to have all of its air commerce national airlines and no international airlines.

10 national airlines = cost 20 points
10 international airlines = cost 30 points

So basically you can build 1.5 times as many national airlines than international airlines, which means you can have 1.5 times as many airline commerce income if you had "all-national" air commerce instead of using international airlines.

I thought this would be better...

2 points income per 1 national airline (same as initial cost)
3 points income per 1 international airline (same as initial cost)

Keep in mind, the extra point income from international airlines would be tourists and international business-people spending more money than "natives" using national airlines. Gift shops, international corporate meetings, tourism hotels (airline sponsored), and so forth.


at tech level 7, all airlines cost the same as they are using jets and more capable and faster turboprop aircraft. Its at tech level 6 and 6.5 that there is a major distinction

Korea, I believe the SCT already has Large ICBM technology (has had it for a while) so you need to re-divert your 8 points of research into the Asian Space Program (which handles ALL missile and space researches). I believe the ASP is now working on solid fuel missiles.

at tech level 7, all airlines cost the same as they are using jets and more capable and faster turboprop aircraft. Its at tech level 6 and 6.5 that there is a major distinction

Then there's no real "gameplay" benefit in building international airlines if you can build national airlines for cheaper (2 points as opposed to 3 for international) and for same commerce income (both are equal in income at 2 points per year per airline).

EDIT:

Wait- do you mean for Tech level 7 onwards, national and international airlines now cost the same to build? (2 points to build either one)

Then there's no real "gameplay" benefit in building international airlines if you can build national airlines for cheaper (2 points as opposed to 3 for international) and for same commerce income (both are equal in income at 2 points per year per airline).

EDIT:

Wait- do you mean for Tech level 7 onwards, national and international airlines now cost the same to build? (2 points to build either one)

3 points to build either one... look how much a military transport unit costs, plus the pilot.. so its 5 points total.

3 points to build either one... look how much a military transport unit costs, plus the pilot.. so its 5 points total.

Thanks for clearing that up, GB.

What in-game effects does upgrading your entire nation's airports to jet-capable? Enabling Tech Level 7 air commerce? Allowing military aircraft to operate anywhere within your nation? Aircraft being able to operate at their maximum range from your borders?

Just wondering- China already upgraded way back in 1950 or so.

Nigerian Build, 1959

Tech Level 6

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Growth: 4% (3% for spending + 1% for economic bloc [Commonwealth])

Population: 35 million

Income

Eight industrial centers (Three at Lagos, Three at Abuja, one at Port Harcourt, one at Sokoto. 16 points)
Nineteen Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)
Foriegn Aid from Brazil (12 points)

TOTAL: 64 points

Domestic Spending

Level III Social Spending: 10 points

Production Center: 24 points

Level III Social Services for Benin and Niger: 4.5 points

Intelligence Agency: 5 Points

Sub-Total: 49

Military Upkeep

2xHighly Trained Motorized Division: .1.5 points
1xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Light Infantry Division: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5 points
1xElite Marine Brigade: .75 points
1xExpert Pilot: .25 points
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25 points
1xDestroyer Flotilla: .25 points
1xLight Missile Cruiser: .5 points
1xBAC Lightning Unit: 1 point

Sub-Total: 6.5

Military Spending

Upgrade One Infantry Division to Motorized Division: 1 point


1xHQ Unit: 4 (8/10)

Sub-total: 4 point

TOTAL: 62 points

Trade Assignment

Four Units to South Africa

Four Units to the United Kingdom

Four Units to Germany

Four to the United States

Two to Brazil

Oil Points
One to the UK

Two to South Africa

One to Nigeria

One to Brazil

Energy

One oil point for 6.75 points of military units.

One natural gas point for 8 Production Centers.

Thanks for clearing that up, GB.

What in-game effects does upgrading your entire nation's airports to jet-capable? Enabling Tech Level 7 air commerce? Allowing military aircraft to operate anywhere within your nation? Aircraft being able to operate at their maximum range from your borders?

Just wondering- China already upgraded way back in 1950 or so.

allows for tourism... that was what the upgrade was for, along with the ability to handle tech level 7 airlines.

You also have to upgrade again at tech level 8

Korea, I believe the SCT already has Large ICBM technology (has had it for a while) so you need to re-divert your 8 points of research into the Asian Space Program (which handles ALL missile and space researches). I believe the ASP is now working on solid fuel missiles.

Cool.

Stingers for the Win! :cool:

Ukrainian Budget 1959
Population: 37 Million
Tech level: 7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: 3%
Income (Normal): (51 prod centers) Kiev 9, Stalino 9, Dneipopetrovsk 9, Odessa 8, Kharkov 8, Sevastpool 8, 30 shipping units, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminal, comm. network, 4 hydroelectric, 4 nuclear (SU built- Kiev), 2 coal, 2 natural gas=170
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Maintenance: 35.25 points (1 HQ, 2 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 mech flak divisions, 6 elite armored divisions, 4 elite mech divisions 7 Saab Draken, 2 Saab Lansen, ETU95, 12 elite pilots, 10 destroyers, 2 nuclear attack subs, 40 corvettes, Tu 107, 2 nuclear power AA cruisers, 2 nuclear power heavy missile cruisers)

Spending:126.75 to spend
5 points-electronics industry(4/5)
2 points-comm. network
12 points- Joint space program
48 points- 2 nuclear power
21 points- 7 MiG 25’s replace 7 Saab Draken
8 points- 2 Tu 22 replace Saab Lansens
24 points- Prod Center
5 points- Mech flak

<snip>

Looks good so far, Greill. Though by my count you have 126.25 points to spend, not 123.25. You spent a total of 125, so you've got another 1.25 points if you want to spend that on anything.

South African Budget 1959
Population: 34,137,000
Income: 189
Production: 132 (66 production centers/68 maximum)
Commerce: 44 (27 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment: Cancelled
Annual Growth: 4% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth)

Energy: 13/15 points needed
4 Oil
3 Coal
1 Natural Gas
2 Oil points/year from Nigeria (1 specified as Strategic Reserve)
4 Nuclear (Springbok, Francistown, Durban, Messina)

Constant Costs-46.5 points
Military Upkeep-18 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-10 points
Social Services (Level III)- 1.5 point (for Angola)
Continuing Research Grants-6 points
Spy Satellite Network Maintenance-6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
2x Nuclear Power Plant-48 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-15.5 points (research complete)
Discretionary Spending-8 points
2nd Generation Missile Research-12 points
Converting missiles to 2nd Generation-.5 points
Gemini research-12 points
Manned Orbital Laboratory [research, launch, etc]-24 points
Manned Orbital Laboratoy [actual lab]-20 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
N/A

Surplus
.5 points

Projected 1960 Income: 136 (66 production centers + 2 growth) + 44 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 193 total points

South African Budget 1959
Population: 34,137,000
Income: 191
Production: 132 (66 production centers/68 maximum)
Commerce: 46 (27 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment: Cancelled
Annual Growth: 4% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth)

Energy: 13/15 points needed
4 Oil
3 Coal
1 Natural Gas
2 Oil points/year from Nigeria (1 specified as Strategic Reserve)
4 Nuclear (Springbok, Francistown, Durban, Messina)

Constant Costs-46.5 points
Military Upkeep-18 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-10 points
Social Services (Level III)- 1.5 point (for Angola)
Continuing Research Grants-6 points
Spy Satellite Network Maintenance-6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
2x Nuclear Power Plant-48 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-15.5 points (research complete)
Discretionary Spending-10 points
2nd Generation Missile Research-12 points
Converting missiles to 2nd Generation-.5 points
Gemini research-12 points
Manned Orbital Laboratory [research, launch, etc]-24 points
Manned Orbital Laboratoy [actual lab]-20 points

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
N/A

Surplus
.5 points

Projected 1960 Income: 136 (66 production centers + 2 growth) + 46 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 195 total points

I think it's only a 5% addition from satellites, unless I've been doing it wrong

Communications satellite network. Costs 6 points. Requires large ICBM technology plus satellite technology. Provides a 5% bonus to commerce (which can exceed the usual maximum).

Improved Communications satellite network. Costs 12 points. Requires large ICBM technology plus satellite technology plus communications satellite technology plus 12 points research. Provides a 10% bonus to commerce, which can exceed the normal maximum and is not cumulative with normal satellite bonus).

[emphasis mine]

Unless I've interpreted this wrong, the maximum commerce bonus one can receive from satellites is 15%. I'll add it to main post at the beginning of this thread, either way, once the issue is cleared up.

I think its 10%, as it says its not cumulative.

whoops I mssed that. Does the SCT have that yet?

[emphasis mine]

Unless I've interpreted this wrong, the maximum commerce bonus one can receive from satellites is 15%. I'll add it to main post at the beginning of this thread, either way, once the issue is cleared up.

As Elephantum Siad it is only 10% as it is not cumulative with the previous satlellite bonus.

whoops I mssed that. Does the SCT have that yet?
Yes

Okay, I've got it now. I'll add that to the front page to hopefully avoid further confusion.

Scandic Union
Build 1958
Population-22 million
50 prod centers-
Kiel 5, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 4, Tallin 3, Murmansk 3
34 shipping units
5 airlines
2 Nuclear power plant-Northern Finland
132 points Prod centers(national effort), 50 points commerce, 10 points airlines, 2 points tourism, 2 nuclear, 7 oil, 5 natural gas, 3 communications sat network-208 points
+34 from alliance for space program

53.5 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
6 points-Nuke program(8/10)
5 points-intel agency
3 points-Lv 5 Chemical warfare(2/10)
6 points-Improved Spy sat
2 points-communications satelite network
14 points-1 nuclear heavy missile cruiser, 2 nuclear AA cruisers(Done)
24 points-nuclear power plant
10 points-Turkey
10 points-rest of Turkic alliance
3 points-People of Petrograd
42 points-14 MIG25
4 points-1 Tu22
17.5-nuclear power plant

Space Program-34 points
10 points-2 orbital launches(1 Ukrainian, 1 CAR pilot)
12 points-Space plane research
12 points-improved comm Sat network



Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 5, Smyrnia 4, Izmir 4, Konya 4, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 27 shipping units, 2 nuclear power, 1 airport, 3 points comm. net=77 points+10 points Scandic Aid
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
Intel agency-5 points
4 Saab Drakens,1 Saab Lansen, 1 Tu22, 1 helicopter, 8 elite pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes,1 HQ 6 light infantry divisions (highly trained), 2 mech divisions.(Highly trained) 1 armored division, 2 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear AA cruiser-16

Purchase:62.75
5 points-electronics(1/5)
2 points-comm net
8 points-space program
12 points- 3 MIG 25
4 points-1 Tu22
6 points- 3 light infantry to mech
12 points-nuclear program
14 points-prod center(10 left)


Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 5, Alma Ata 5, 1 national airline, 4 international airline, 1 airport(Tashkent), 4 oil, 6 gas=41 points+9 SU aid
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps(Elite), 3 pilots(Elite), 2 Saab Draken, 1 garrison unit(Elite), 1 Saab Lansen 8.5 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy: 34.5 to spend
1 points civil defense
4.5-prod center
5 points-electronics(1/5)
6 points-2 MIG 25
4 points-1 Tu22
13 points-Prod center(11 left)


Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 1 prod center, 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 shipping=13 points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
7 points-prod center


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 2 , Kashgar 2, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=10 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
1 points-3 airlines
4 points-space program

2 left



Polish Budget 1959
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
4 Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)-Lodz, Warsaw
Production centers: (63 prod centers)Warsaw 8, Lodz 7, Krakow 8, Katowice 8, Brest-Litovsk 8, Lvov 8, Riga 8, Lublin 8, 30 shipping points, 2 national airline, 3 international airline, 4 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz), 4 nuclear=189
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 40.5 points (1 HQ, 5 elite armored corps, 5 elite infantry corps, 6 elite mech divisions, 8 flak units, 7 Saab Draken, 4 Saab Lansen, 2 Tu16, 1 KC97, 1 Tu 107, 1 ETU95 16 elite pilots, 2 destroyer squadrons, 1 nuclear AA cruiser, 1 nuclear attack sub).

Spending:135
4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points-electronics industry(2/5)
2 points-comm sat net
10 points-space program
5 points-intel operations
21 points-7 MIG 25’s
16 points-4 Tu22
48 points-2 nuclear power plants
10 points-1 HQ
14 points-Prod center(10 left)

China's build for 1959...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 485 industry + 55 commerce + 7 oil + 10 nuclear + 20 tourism = 578 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 485 points + 55 commerce + 7 oil + 10 nuclear + 20 tourism = 578 points total.

Other Income: 3 points.

3 points from sale of Type 63 Flak Guns to Syria sufficient to outfit 1 Flak division

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

141 points = military (Upgrade all units to ELITE status, base of 98 military points)
147 points = Level III social services
50 points = Civil Defense
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
12 points = Nuclear bomb production (100 bombs a year – stockpile of 350 nukes)


355 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

None.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 8 of 10… 24 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 4 of 5… 24 / 30 points)

12 points for Advanced Pollution Controls (Year 2 of 6… 24 / 72 points)

5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 2 of 5… 10 / 25 points)

120 points to construct 5 nuclear power plants.

9 points to complete nuclear power plant started last year.

Other Expeditures:

14 points to Asian Economic Funds.



61 spare points.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

6% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits)
69 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1960 economy:

554 industry
55 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points, 10 airline points, and 5 satellite points)
7 oil points
16 nuclear points
1 Ethanol point
20 tourism income (maximum)

Other Resources: 12 Coal, 7 Natural Gas, 4 Hydro

Total: 653 income points for 1960.


=================================================

Breakdown of 1959 Asian Economic Funds:

Income: 9 points from China, 7 points from Japan, 4 points from USEA

Expeditures:

9 points for 3 merchant shipping for Burma (Burma now has 17 shipping)
9 points for 3 merchant shipping for Phillipines. (Philippines now has 13 shipping)
2 points for Rural Electrification of Burma (Year 2 of 2)

who's handling Burma and Phillipines builds?

Breakdown of 1959 Asian Economic Funds:

Income: 13 points from China, 7 points from Japan

Expeditures:

9 points for 3 merchant shipping for Burma (Burma now has 17 shipping)
9 points for 3 merchant shipping for Phillipines. (Philippines now has 13 shipping)
2 points for Rural Electrification of Burma (Year 2 of 2)

USEA will (when i get my build up) donate 4 points. For simplicity just assume Im going to donate 4 points each year unless I say otherwise.

who's handling Burma and Phillipines builds?
I do Burma, GB does the Phillipines.

USEA will (when i get my build up) donate 4 points. For simplicity just assume Im going to donate 4 points each year unless I say otherwise.

Noted and fixed.

Ato-Sara, check your TG's.

USEA will (when i get my build up) donate 4 points. For simplicity just assume Im going to donate 4 points each year unless I say otherwise.

You actually get 7.25 points, plus another 7.25 for the ASP from me

I think its 10%, as it says its not cumulative.

correct, as the improved satellites replace the old satellites.

They get even better at tech level 8 and 8.5

Population-22 million
50 prod centers-

I thought that at tech 7/7.5 the max economic potential was 2 production centres per million people? Or have I been doing it wrong?

I thought that at tech 7/7.5 the max economic potential was 2 production centres per million people? Or have I been doing it wrong?
No you are definately right, max production centre cap at tech levels 7 and 7.5 is 2 per million people which means the SU has 6 too many production centres.

If you count up my points they equal out, I just kept adding prod centers when I maxed out from growth and stopped at 50 cause it was pointless to keep adding them up. BUt it should work out that I only use 44 if you add up the points.

Wait.. so I should have 88 production centers from a pop of 44 Million... 3 points for each production center... 264pts just from Domestic Production!?

2 points for each prod center, 3 when on national effort.

Wait.. so I should have 88 production centers from a pop of 44 Million... 3 points for each production center... 264pts just from Domestic Production!?

If you're maxed out on domestic production and on a peacetime economy, then you'd have 176 points of production.

You could "save" these 6 extra production centers for when the SU hits tech level 7.5.

In that case, the max for the SU goes up to 66 production centers.

I'm already at 7.5, I don't think the Prod center max goes up till level 8.

from the first page

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 production center, or "factory," per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 production centers per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 production centers for every 1 million people

however, you can look at your population in 1950, and then again in 1960, (or 1960 and 1970 once we get there) and figure the annual population growth and if your economy exceeds that percentage, use the population growth as your expansion as long as you don't exceed your maximum

Could any oil deals made with the Turkics(CAR, Kashgaria, Azerbaijan, Turkey) be posted in the new CSPS thread so that they can be factored into their economies when I do them.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=482568

I'm already at 7.5, I don't think the Prod center max goes up till level 8.

Tech level 7 and below = 2 production centers per 1 million people.

Tech level 7.5 = 3 production centers per 1 million people.

Tech level 8+ = 5 production centers per 1 million people.

-----------------------------------

Given that the SU's population is 22 million, here's its maximum productivity.

Tech level 7 and below = 44 production centers
Tech level 7.5 = 66 production centers
Tech level 8 = 110 production centers

The SU is currently tech level 7.5 so its productivity maximum should be 66, not 44. So you have 16 more production centers to "grow" before you reach maximum, Safehaven.

Tech level 7 and below = 2 production centers per 1 million people.

Tech level 7.5 = 3 production centers per 1 million people.

Tech level 8+ = 5 production centers per 1 million people.

-----------------------------------

Given that the SU's population is 22 million, here's its maximum productivity.

Tech level 7 and below = 44 production centers
Tech level 7.5 = 66 production centers
Tech level 8 = 110 production centers

The SU is currently tech level 7.5 so its productivity maximum should be 66, not 44. So you have 16 more production centers to "grow" before you reach maximum, Safehaven.


are you suggesting a change? Because that would seriously unbalance things at this point, mostly against China, as the US and several other nations will quickly advance due to the easy growth they will have and even easier time they will have in reaching tech level 8

Mainly I ask because the first page of the economic thread doesnt say that, and its a pretty delicate balance playability wise at this point.

are you suggesting a change? Because that would seriously unbalance things at this point, mostly against China, as the US and several other nations will quickly advance due to the easy growth they will have and even easier time they will have in reaching tech level 8

Mainly I ask because the first page of the economic thread doesnt say that, and its a pretty delicate balance playability wise at this point.

The original point system was like this (maximum industrial capacity)...

Tech level 7 and below = 2 production centers per 1 million population
Tech level 7.5 = 3 production centers per 1 million population
Tech level 8 = 5 production centers per 1 million population

You yourself said that the productivity cap raises in each successive tech level, and also said that in tech level 8, nations can operate 5 factories or production centers for every 1 million population.

Economic potential
The maximum build point limit that can be reached with just internal production (factories and home resources) at tech levels 3 – 6 is 1 production center, or "factory," per 1 million people. Once that limit is reached, your economy simply cannot expand further. This is the maximum potential for your national economy. At tech level 7, that increases to 2 production centers per 1 million people, and at tech level 8 it becomes 3 production centers for every 1 million people.

This is from main post in economic thread.



This is your post explaining the system I outlined at the beginning of this post I'm writing and the one prior to it.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10659073&postcount=276


Effects of tech level 7.5... maximum productivity is increased (from 2 per 1 million to 3 per 1 million). Also maximum air commerce increases to 20, and shipping units become worth 2. Maximum commerce increases to 50. Every 4 air commerce points also creates 1 tourist point (which doesnt count against the population maximum of tourism)

effects of tech level 8... maximum productivity is increased again (to 5 per 1 million). Maximum air commerce increases to 30, and every 3 air commerce points creates 1 tourist point also (as above).

This is the excerpt from the post I gave the link to (bold emphasis are mine).

This also answers my question about increasing air commerce and sea commerce in Tech Level 7.5 and then again in Tech Level 8. In addition this post explains about the free tourist points that doesn't count towards the maximum.

This was the questions I was asking a few days ago in this post...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10897705&postcount=850

And your response...

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10902194&postcount=855

----------------------------------

See why I was confused in the first place? I'd like this matter to be resolved once and for all....

Production centers?
Commerce?
Free tourism points?
Increased caps?

I will look at it tomorrow

I will look at it tomorrow

Thanks.

Basically what needs resolving is as follows....

1. Productivity Caps.

Do we stay with the following "chart"

Tech 6 or below = 1 production center per 1 million population.
Tech 7 to 7.5 = 2 production centers per 1 million population.
Tech 8 = 3 production centers per 1 million population.

OR

Do we adopt this "chart" that GB was talking about in the post and excerpt I provided in my previous post (above this one)?

Tech 7 or below = 2 production centers per 1 million population.
Tech 7.5 = 3 production centers per 1 million population.
Tech 8 = 5 production centers per 1 million population.



(MY OPINION)

Personally, I prefer the older system, as a jump from 3 production centers per 1 million to 5 per 1 million shouldn't happen until we have robotic factories and stuff (Tech level 9). I think a system in which nations gain 1 production center per million for every tech level advancement works best.

Example...

Tech level 7 = 2 production centers per 1 million.
Tech level 8 = 3 production centers per 1 million.
Tech level 9 = 4 production centers per 1 million.
Tech level 10 = 5 production centers per 1 million.
Tech level 11 = 6 production centers per 1 million.

And so on.

I think this makes more sense and is easier to follow.

--------------------------------

2. Will there be an increase of commerce caps as GB stated or will the commerce cap change at Tech 8?

Tech 7.5 commerce = 50 shipping, 20 air commerce, and 1 free tourist point per 4 air commerce.
Tech 8 commerce = 50 shipping, 30 air commerce, and 1 free tourist point per 3 air commerce points

OR

Not adopt these increases until Tech 8 instead of implementing them at Tech 7.5?



(MY OPINION)

I think U.P.S. was around in 1970's or so in RL. There's also the increasing volume of air traffic with the new jet-liners like what GB said the other night. Huge bulk container ships were being built as early as late 1960's - 1970's in RL that can carry 75,000 - 100,000+ tons of shipping per individual ship.

Therefore I don't see upping the caps for commerce (sea and air) being such a stretch. The boost in air commerce in Tech level 8 from 20 to 30 points could be all the Fed-Ex, DHL, etc. stuff GB mentioned the other night.

--------------------------

I think using production cap "chart" #1 (the one we've been using and my idea of +1 factory per +1 tech level) and using the revised commerce caps "chart" would work out.

What say you, GB, Malkyer, and LR? This issue needs to be resolved so that people won't be even more confused when 1960 rolls around (along with the substantial revisions in place like pollution and food).

My opinion is that we should continue using the current system of domestic production (+1 tech level=+1 production center/million people).

As for the commerce cap changing at level 7.5 or level 8, I'm inclined to say we should wait for tech level 8, simply because we've got a lot of new rules coming next game year (energy, pollution, etc), and we should give people some time to get used to those before factoring in another change. If that's unrealistic, let me know.

I think the present system works fine, even though it penalises small high tech countries like myself. Improved commerce at 7.5 wouldn't be too bas though, but I can live without it.

My opinion is that we should continue using the current system of domestic production (+1 tech level=+1 production center/million people).

As for the commerce cap changing at level 7.5 or level 8, I'm inclined to say we should wait for tech level 8, simply because we've got a lot of new rules coming next game year (energy, pollution, etc), and we should give people some time to get used to those before factoring in another change. If that's unrealistic, let me know.

I agree for the same reasons, and I don't think its unrealistic. At some point a certain amount of realism will have to be sacrificed for playability.


So my opinion, stay with what it says on the first page for tech level 7.5 and 7, and tech level 8 will be updated when it becomes needed.

Also, assume that until something is put on the first page of a thread as a comfirmed rule, that its under discussion and not 'official' yet.

Kingdom of Bulgaria
Market Economy: 3% Annual Growth
Population: around 7.5 Million

Basicly the same as 1957 and 1958, but just updated and rebuilt for 1959...

The Nuclear Program is developing well, the main objectives are gradually coming into place now... Tech Level 7.5 is within reach if the Kingdom is not already there... Do have airline, more than enough years of social spending at Level 3, tourism is going relatively well, but no communications satellites are planned for 1959 and have to take until around the early 1960s for us to develop...

I am selling 2 MiG25's to Japan. Do I implement the points from the sale in this year's spending or next year's?

British NPCS:

Gambia
Pop: 320,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), 8 points from 8 shipping units,
Spending: level 5 social .5 points; .25 points maintenance, 0.5 points to continue a unit of missile boats (2/3), 6 points for 2 shipping units, 1.75 points to start another.
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 3 to other African nations, 2 Commonwealth, 2 RoW.

Togo
Pop: 1.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa), 6 points from 6 shipping units
Spending: 1.5 points for level 5 social services, 2 points maintenance, .25 points to finish a shipping unit, 3 points for 1 shipping unit, 2.25 to start another.
Military: 2 inf div, 40 miss boats, 1 pilot, 1 BAC lightning, 1 armoured brigade.
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 2 to Africa, 2 Commonwealth, 1 RoW

Ghana
Pop: 6.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa), 5 points from 5 shipping units
Spending: level 4 social services 3.25 points, .5 points maintenance, 3 points for a shipping unit, 2.25 points to start a shipping unit (2.25/3)
Military: 1 inf div, garrison
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa, 1 to Commonwealth, 2 to RoW

Senegal
Pop: 3.1 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 production centres at Dakar, 12 from 12 shipping units,
Spending: 1.5 points for level 4 social services, 1.75 points maintenance, 3 points to France in loan repayments (year 5 out of 15), .1.25 to finish a shipping unit, 9 points for 3 shipping units, 1.5 points to start another.
Military: 1 inf div, 1 miss boat, pilot, BAC Lightnings, destroyer squadron,
Shipping: 2 to UK, 3 to France, 3 to Africa, 2 to RoW. 2 to Commonwealth.
Growth: 1

Sierra Leone
Pop: 2.1 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Freetown, 3 points from 3 shipping units.
Spending: Level 4 services 1 point, .25 maintenance, 1.25 points to finish a shipping unit, 2.5 points to start another.
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 Africa, 1 RoW

Northern Cyprus
Pop: 100,000
Tech: 6
Income 1 resource point (fishing)
Spending: 0 (actually 0.05, but negligible) points for level 4 social services, 0.25 maintenance, .75 to continue a shipping unit (1.5/3)
Military: mountain brigade,
Growth: 0

Southern Cyprus
Pop: 450,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Nicosia, 3 point from 3 shipping units
Spending: 0.25 points on level 4 social services, 0.25 points maintenance, 2 points to finish a shipping unit, 2.5 to start another.
Military: 1 mountain bde
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 Britain and Commonwealth, 2 RoW

Yemen
Pop: 5.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at San’a, 5 shipping units
Spending: 2.5 points on level 4 social services, .75 maintenance, 3 points for a shipping unit, 0.75 to start another
Shipping: 1 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 2 RoW
Military: 2 inf div, 40 missile boats
Growth: 0

Kuwait
Pop: 250,000
Tech: 6
Income: 4 oil points, 7 shipping units
Spending: 0.25 points on level 5 social services, .5 points maintenance, 2.25 points to finish a shipping unit. 6 points for 2 shipping units, 2 points to start another.
Shipping: 2 to UK and Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 2 RoW
Military: 1 marine bde, 40 missile boats,
Growth: 0

Oman (and Western Arabia, UAE)
Pop: 2.5 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres, 6 shipping units, 8 oil points
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, 4 points maintenance, 2 points to finish a shipping unit, 9 points for 3 more, 0.5 points to start another.
Shipping: 2 to UK, 2 to Commonwealth, 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 2 infantry divisions, 2 missile boat units, light missile cruiser, a destroyer squadron, a frigate flotilla, pilot, BAC lightning, mech division
Growth: 0

Ceylon
Pop: 9.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres, 1 shipping unit
Spending: 4.75 points on level 4 social services, 2.25 points to start a shipping unit
Shipping: 1 dispersed
Military: none
Growth: 0

Kenya
Pop: 7.9 million
Tech: 6
Income: 8 prod centres, airport, cruise terminal, 3 shipping units,
Spending: 8 points on level 5 social services, 1 point maintenance, 2 points to finish some BAC lightnings, 9 points for 3 shipping units, 1 point to start another.
Shipping: 2 inf divs, pilot,
Military: none
Growth: 1

Uganda
Pop: 6.5 million
Tech: 6
Income: 7 prod centres, 1 resource point (coffee), airport,
Spending: 6.5 points on level 5 social services, 0.75 points maintenance, 5 points for a domestic airline, 3 points for a unit of Lightnings, 0.75 points towards an international airline (0.75/6)
Shipping: none
Military: pilot, 3 inf div
Growth: 1

Tanzania
Pop: 10.1 million
Tech: 6
Income: 10 prod centres, airport, 4 shipping units,
Spending: 10 points on level 5 social services, 3 points for BAC lightnings, 12 points for 4 shipping units,
Shipping: 1 UK, 1 Commonwealth, 1 Africa, 1 RoW
Military: 2 inf divs, pilot
Growth: 1

Chad
Pop: 2.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres,1 shipping unit
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, .5 points to finish inf div, 3 points for a shipping unit, 1 point towards another shipping unit
Shipping: 1 dispersed
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0

Central African Republic
Pop: 1.5 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 prod centres
Spending: 1.5 points on level 5 social services, 2.5 points towards an airline unit (2.5/3)
Shipping: none
Military: inf div, pilot
Growth: 0

Cameroon
Pop: 5.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 6 prod centres, 2 shipping units
Spending: 5.5 points on level 5 social services, 2 points to finish a unit of missile boats, 1 point maintenance, 3 points for 1 shipping unit, 2 points to start another.
Shipping: 1 UK and Commonwealth, 1 Africa
Military: 2 inf divs
Growth: 0

Congo (Brazzaville)
Pop: 950,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 prod centre
Spending: .5 points on level 4 social services, 1 point towards an airport (1.5/4), 0.5 points maintenance,
Shipping: none
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0

Gabon
Pop: 470,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 oil point
Spending: .25 points on level 4 social services, .25 to finish an inf div, 0.5 points towards a shipping unit
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Equatorial Guinea
Pop: 250,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 oil point, 1 resource point (cocoa)
Spending: .25 points on level 5 social services, .5 points to finish a marine brigade, 1.25 points towards a shipping unit
Shipping: none
Military: none
Growth: 0

Guinea-Bissau
Pop: 520,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 prod centre
Spending: .5 points on level 5 social services, 0.5 points maintenance, 1 point towards a shipping unit (1.5/3)
Shipping: none
Military: 1 inf div
Growth: 0

Rwanda
Pop: 2.7 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 3 points on level 4 social services, 1 point maintenance, 1.5 points for an airport (4/4), 0.5 points to start a domestic airline (0.5/5)
Shipping: none
Military: 2 inf divs
Growth: 0

Burundi
Pop: 2.8 million
Tech: 6
Income: 3 prod centres
Spending: 1.5 points on level 4 social services, 1 point for maintenance, 1.5 points to finish an airport (4/4), 2 points towards a domestic airline (2/5)
Shipping: none
Military: 2 inf div
Growth: 0

-------------------------

Britishbuilds will be up later once I have attempted to practice calculating pollution rates etc. as practice for next year.

NB: Many of my NPCs are now managing substantial economies and level V social spending, perhaps some are pushing for tech level 7 witin a few years?

Federation of South American Nations Budget 1959
Population: 44,869,000
Income: 272
Domestic Production: 176 (88 production centers / 88 maximum)
Commerce: 80 (60 shipping units, +15% from satellite communication network.)
Airline: 12 (4 national airlines, 4 International Airlines)
Tourism: 4
Annual Growth: 2% (Market/Peacetime=3%, Level 5 social spending= -2%, +1% from Pan America Treaty)

Energy: Requires 1 more Oil point.
6 Oil (47 points in Military, 96 points for commerce)
1 Coal (Exported to Any Nation)
4 Natural Gas (Exported to China)
2 Hydro Electric (Exported to Brazil)
9 Nuclear (180 points for domestic coverage, 176 used.)

Constant Costs - 120 points
Military Upkeep - 65
Intelligence Service - 5 points
Social Services (Level V) - 44 points
Nuclear Improvement - 6 points

Government Projects
Assisting US Space Program - 2 points
2x Nuclear Power Plants - 48 points
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear AA Cruisers 8/12pts (2/3yr)
1 x Nuclear Heavy Carrier Group - 10/30pts (2/4yrs)
1 x Nuclear Heavy Carrier Group - 10/30pts (2/4yrs)
1 x Elite Pilots 4/4pts (2/2yrs)
1 x Elite Pilots 4/4pts (2/2yrs)
5 points invested in Micro-Electronics (or Micro-Computers) industry. (Year 2 of 5... 10 / 25 points)
10 pts to Subsidize Child Care
First Generation ABM - 12 points (12 of 72, 1 of 6 years)
3rd Generation Missiles - 12 points
Free Milk 15 pts