NationStates Jolt Archive

Parthini']Another thing you might want to consider is that nations may not be willing to continue to service China or whoever if there are others who are more willing to spend more money on oil.

Either way, you all were clamoring for a depression. Here's the perfect excuse...

that is a good point by the way

Good thing it did not go through then :p

that is a good point by the way

I have a counter-point to make.

First, Colombia has been China's major trading partner besides the SCT for nearly 15 years (since the Japanese were kicked back from ports, allowing trade to be re-established with China during WW-3). It has brought both Colombia and China prosperity in E20's history. Colombia and China has steadfastly supported each other since before even WW-2, when China agreed to help Colombia build aerospace factories in the early 1920's. So I don't see Colombia suddenly deciding not to sell anything to China or cutting off trade to China as per Parthini's statement, any more than I can see the USA and UK suddenly stopping trade and support of each other, or Korea and USEA stopping supporting each other.

Second, China is a much more luractive market to sell material, resources, oil, etc. than, say, Ghana or Madasgacar or Afghanistan. China has billions more dollars worth of Gross National Product (GNP) in money and / or resources to buy oil and continue improving trade and economy. To put this into perpsective, China's where the money is at (both in E20 and RL). Suppose Romania or Turkenmistan or Zaire / Congo offers to purchase 1 million barrels of oil for twice the normal price of oil (lets say, $50 per barrel) which means they can pay 50 million dollars for the oil. China can easily purchase 100 million of barrels of oil at $50 per barrel for $5 billion, a huge amount more than these smaller nations. Thus, the oil exporters stand to gain far more revenue, profit, and trade should they continue to sell to China.

If the oil exporters decide to cut China off or something like that, they'll lose approximately $4.95 billion dollars, an enormous hit (almost 100 times the revenue/ profit lost than gained if they were to sell to the smaller nations instead of China). Keep in mind, this is just an example to illustrate my point of "China = where the money's at".

As the oil crisis worsens the British government begins looking for alternative sources. A massive surveying project reveals many potential drilling locations beneath the North Sea, but experts state that more advanced technology is required to extract it. The government holds onto the project for the time being, and places all research on it into a top secret category and locks it away until technology is sufficiently advanced (tech 7.5 here I come!).

Japan, Korea, China, USEAS, etc. In other words, those parts without any significant domestic oil production (Pakistan may have enough, but the player may want to research that).

Here's what I found:





Figure 3 illustrates the self-sufficiency in energy, which is expressed as energy production as a percentage of the total primary energy supply. Self-sufficiency in the region declined from 86% in 1990/91 to 81% in 1997/98, and this trend is likely to continue in the future in light of the increase in energy demand thereby necessitating larger imports. Therefore, indigenous energy supply needs to be urgently enhanced.

South Asia accounts for less than 0.5% of the world’s crude oil reserves and produced 40.5 million tonnes in 1997/98. India’s recoverable reserves of crude oil and natural gas have declined continuously after peaking at 806 million tonnes and 735 billion cubic metres, respectively, in 1991/92 (TERI. 1999). The current balance recoverable reserves in India are estimated at 726 million tonnes of crude oil and 692 billion cubic metres of natural gas. Most of the crude oil production in South Asia is accounted for by India, which, in 1997/98, accounted for 93% (38 million tonnes) of the total oil production in the region whereas Pakistan accounted for only 7% (3 million tonnes) in the same year.

India is also the largest consumer and importer of crude oil and petroleum products. Between 1990 and 1996, the consumption of petroleum products grew at the rate of 6.7% in the region, with Nepal and Sri Lanka recording the highest growth rates of 18.9% and 9.8%, respectively. This trend is likely to continue in the future because of the increased demand for oil as a transportation fuel and as fuel for the new oil-fired power plants, and also because of the need to reduce a near-total dependency on hydro power in the case of Sri Lanka.

I think that means that for now, I have my bases covered (I still have oil left over from me controlling the UIR, too), but my oil won't be enough to cover ALL the damages. Perhaps only 1.5% decrease, instead of 2%?

I have a counter-point to make.

First, Colombia has been China's major trading partner besides the SCT for nearly 15 years (since the Japanese were kicked back from ports, allowing trade to be re-established with China during WW-3). It has brought both Colombia and China prosperity in E20's history. Colombia and China has steadfastly supported each other since before even WW-2, when China agreed to help Colombia build aerospace factories in the early 1920's. So I don't see Colombia suddenly deciding not to sell anything to China or cutting off trade to China as per Parthini's statement, any more than I can see the USA and UK suddenly stopping trade and support of each other, or Korea and USEA stopping supporting each other.

Second, China is a much more luractive market to sell material, resources, oil, etc. than, say, Ghana or Madasgacar or Afghanistan. China has billions more dollars worth of Gross National Product (GNP) in money and / or resources to buy oil and continue improving trade and economy. To put this into perpsective, China's where the money is at (both in E20 and RL). Suppose Romania or Turkenmistan or Zaire / Congo offers to purchase 1 million barrels of oil for twice the normal price of oil (lets say, $50 per barrel) which means they can pay 50 million dollars for the oil. China can easily purchase 100 million of barrels of oil at $50 per barrel for $5 billion, a huge amount more than these smaller nations. Thus, the oil exporters stand to gain far more revenue, profit, and trade should they continue to sell to China.

If the oil exporters decide to cut China off or something like that, they'll lose approximately $4.95 billion dollars, an enormous hit (almost 100 times the revenue/ profit lost than gained if they were to sell to the smaller nations instead of China). Keep in mind, this is just an example to illustrate my point of "China = where the money's at".

thats not what I said, what I said in essence is that oil prices rise world wide because oil prices are speculative, just like all other commodities, and a percieved shortage anywhere makes the price for all of that commodity rise. SO even if Colombia is still selling oil to you, its increased in price

you guys are making the fundamental assumption that economics is about actual supply and demand. That is not how it works. Economics is about PERCIEVED supply and demand.

In short, the psychology of the marketplace is more important then the reality of the marketplace. My home for example tripled in price in a mere 4 years, but its actual value is unchanged. What some one is willing to pay for it however has markedly increased however.

you guys are making the fundamental assumption that economics is about actual supply and demand. That is not how it works. Economics is about PERCIEVED supply and demand.

In short, the psychology of the marketplace is more important then the reality of the marketplace. My home for example tripled in price in a mere 4 years, but its actual value is unchanged. What some one is willing to pay for it however has markedly increased however.

Well, since I do have alot of oil-fields around the deserts in Western Pakistan, and since I controlled the Persian oil fields for a few years (enough years to horde some oil), would people perceive that I have oil, even if I really don't have that much?

ooc: Can I start looking into Alternate fuels yet? How about if I build s'more nuclear reactors? GB have you ever heard of QNF or QNFR? if not, TG me and we'll talk.

OOC: lol

You guys are really flaky. You have been clamoring about the need to have a world wide depression for several weeks now, not to mention metioning it every time there is a war. Then, the time comes and everyone is looking for an easy way out. There is no easy or proven way out. It's Capitalism. That's the beauty of it and that's what you guys got 125 million people killed over.

Now, I'm not being critical or anything, but Sharina: you have somewhere around half a Billion people and since you have so industrialized and mechanized your agriculture, your oil consumption is going to be insane. Not to mention speculation, which would run rampant in a country your size.

Not to mention the lax government control your nation has due to Corporations taking over most of the industry so far. I hate to say it, but from what I can see, China has reverted to the Warlord era except replacing Warlords with CEOs, and the Emperor with a President.

However, that's just my speculation :)

Parthini']OOC: lol

You guys are really flaky. You have been clamoring about the need to have a world wide depression for several weeks now, not to mention metioning it every time there is a war. Then, the time comes and everyone is looking for an easy way out. There is no easy or proven way out. It's Capitalism. That's the beauty of it and that's what you guys got 125 million people killed over.

Now, I'm not being critical or anything, but Sharina: you have somewhere around half a Billion people and since you have so industrialized and mechanized your agriculture, your oil consumption is going to be insane. Not to mention speculation, which would run rampant in a country your size.

Not to mention the lax government control your nation has due to Corporations taking over most of the industry so far. I hate to say it, but from what I can see, China has reverted to the Warlord era except replacing Warlords with CEOs, and the Emperor with a President.

However, that's just my speculation :)

Dude, I didn't want a depression :(

Well, since I do have alot of oil-fields around the deserts in Western Pakistan, and since I controlled the Persian oil fields for a few years (enough years to horde some oil), would people perceive that I have oil, even if I really don't have that much?

economics doesn't work that way, and most investers are well aware that you fought a war since then

ooc: Can I start looking into Alternate fuels yet? How about if I build s'more nuclear reactors? GB have you ever heard of QNF or QNFR? if not, TG me and we'll talk.

tech 7.5 and 8 will so more of that, and yes, nuclear energy programs and hydroelectric programs will help a bit, but not entirely

can we build hydroelectric dams now or do we have to wait? It seems like it should already be possible, but maybe I'm wrong

can we build hydroelectric dams now or do we have to wait? It seems like it should already be possible, but maybe I'm wrong

dams exist already, and handle a lot of your industry (well not so much for Japan, which isn't known for its large number of powerful rivers).

Main thing to remember, this is the Third Industrial Revolution and the most important energy source is oil. Oil prices are going to matter.

dams exist already, and handle a lot of your industry (well not so much for Japan, which isn't known for its large number of powerful rivers).

Main thing to remember, this is the Third Industrial Revolution and the most important energy source is oil. Oil prices are going to matter.

Say, speaking of prices...does anybody have a guess how much it would cost to build more efficent autos and engines?

Say, speaking of prices...does anybody have a guess how much it would cost to build more efficent autos and engines?

tech level 7.5 for that, fuel efficient cars at Tech level 7 are early model Hondas, Toyotas, and the VW Beetle to give you some examples.

By the way, higher oil prices will adjust themselves eventually as it becomes cost effective to do more exploration.

Oil has just been found in the Paracel Islands and is likely to be found easily in the Spratley Islands. Of course, ownership of those islands is in disupte (as it is in real life)

tech level 7.5 for that, fuel efficient cars at Tech level 7 are early model Hondas, Toyotas, and the VW Beetle to give you some examples.

By the way, higher oil prices will adjust themselves eventually as it becomes cost effective to do more exploration.

Oil has just been found in the Paracel Islands and is likely to be found easily in the Spratley Islands. Of course, ownership of those islands is in disupte (as it is in real life)

Cool. Thanks!

Brazil has 0 oil:( ...... hey Columbia.......

thats not what I said, what I said in essence is that oil prices rise world wide because oil prices are speculative, just like all other commodities, and a percieved shortage anywhere makes the price for all of that commodity rise. SO even if Colombia is still selling oil to you, its increased in price

I was countering Parthini's statement that nations may not want to do commerce or sell oil to China, not the actual price of oil itself.

economics doesn't work that way, and most investers are well aware that you fought a war since then

So I loose 2% growth?

Well shit.

I'd assume AL members only lose 1%, because the prices are more of an issue than getting it here.

My computers having issues, but at some point I'll do my '55 build. Also, since the Arab League has 3 different research programs going on (Rockets, Nuclear Fission, and the other nuclear thing in the parallel program) in addition to possible support for members, should I do a separate build for that? Not quite a build really, but a list of what we're working on and how much goes to each.

My computers having issues, but at some point I'll do my '55 build. Also, since the Arab League has 3 different research programs going on (Rockets, Nuclear Fission, and the other nuclear thing in the parallel program) in addition to possible support for members, should I do a separate build for that? Not quite a build really, but a list of what we're working on and how much goes to each.

Something like that would help keep everything in one place as an easy reference; go ahead.

OK then, I'll post it when I do my regular build.

Also, if my economy seems like it just shot through the roof its because I missed that 2 center/million, plus I've forgotten to add the Lebanese population this whole time.

Greetings! I now have access to a computer again.

1954 build (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10713236&postcount=431) edited to reflect aid from Brazil.

Nigerian Build, 1955

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Tech Level 6

Growth: 2%

Income[b]
4 Industrial Centers (8 points)
19 Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)

TOTAL: 44 points

[b]Civil Spending

Level III Social Services: 10 points

Industrial Center: 24 points

Debt to South Africa: 6 points

Military Upkeep
3xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: 1.5
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5
1xExpert Pilot: .25
1xDestroyer Squadron: .25
1xLight Cruiser (missile): .5

TOTAL: 43.5 points

Waste: .5 points

I will be gone most of the weekend, so I will post the US and the nations I am responsible for keeping track of on Tuesday most likely, possibly Monday.

1955 Syrian Economy (Peacetime Market)
Population: 5 million (4 million Syria, 1 million Lebanon)
Income
Production: 20 (10 centers, 3 Damascus, 2 Beirut, 1 Latakia, 1 Tripoli, 2 Aleppo, 1 Homs)
Nat'l Airline+Tourism 2.5
Shipping (19 units) 28.5
TOTAL: 51
Conistent Spending
Gov't and Military Maintenance: 12 (Mech Inf. D. and Mech Flak D. to elite)
Level V Social net: 5

Assorted Spending
Developing Electronics Industry: 5
2 Shipping Units: 6
AL Research: 23

Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (1957)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Electronics Industry (1957)
Current Prediction for TL 7.5-1960

ARAB LEAGUE R&D SUMMARY
(Since this is the first posting, I'll do everything, but usually it'll just be the current year)

ALSA+Civil Nuclear Power Program

1953-Arab League Space Association (ALSA) begins
Syrian Contribution: V-1 Tech (donated), V-2 tech (donated), 4 points for MRBM tech, 5.75 to Power program (not shared until 1954)

1954-nuclear program added
Egyptian Contribution: 20 for finish MRBM, 11 for Fission 1, 13.25 for Fuel Separation Year I, 12 for Improved MRBMs
Syrian Contribution: 13.75 for Fission year 1

1955
Egyptian Contribution: 12 for IRBM, 1.75 for fuel Separation 1
Syrian Contribution: 9 for fuel Separation I, 13 for Fission II
German Contribution*: 12 for IRBM

*German points had been donated to Egypt and Syria for several years, but as they were funnelled into the AL anyways we cut out the middleman.

Somewhere I may have lost a point, but its all there on the spreadsheet.

As of Dec. 1955, the following techs will be complete (plus all before in the sequence)
IRBMs
Fuel Separation I
Fission I

South African Budget 1955
Population: 30,954,000
Income: 133
Production: 74 (37 production centers/60 maximum)
Commerce: 40 (27 shipping units)
Airline: 10
Tourism: 3 (civil strife)
Nigerian Debt Repayment: 6
Annual Growth: 3% (Market/Peacetime=3%, +1% from Commonwealth, -1% from worldwide recession)

Constant Costs
Military Upkeep-13.25 points
Intelligence Service-5 points
Social Services (Level III)-9 points
Continuing Research Grants-6 points

Government Projects
Alternative Fuel Options-24 points
Ecological Surveys--24 points
Assisting US Space Program-2 points
Building Electronics Industry-5 points (Year 3 of 5)
Suborbital Mission (Mercury type)-12 points*
1x Production Center-24 points
Rocket Launch Facility (Cape Town)-2 points
Solid Fuel Rockets-6 points (research 1/8 complete)

Foreign Aid
N/A

Outstanding Debt:
33 points owed by Nigeria-to be paid back as able

Surplus
.75

Projected 1956 Income: 84 (38 production centers + 4 growth) + 40 commerce + 10 airline + 3 tourism = 137 total points

Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years.
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.

*this may be edited pending a response to my TG to Lesser Ribena.

ARAB LEAGUE 1956 Goals

Space

Launch first Rocket into Space
Begin Funding Mercury Program
Begin ICBM tech for future missions



Nuclear

Finish Year 2 of fission research
Begin Fission Year 3 and Fuel Separation year 2

So do I loose 1% growth or 2%?

1955 Syrian Economy (NATIONAL EFFORT Market)
Population: 5 million (4 million Syria, 1 million Lebanon)
Income
Production: 30 (10 centers, 3 Damascus, 2 Beirut, 1 Latakia, 1 Tripoli, 2 Aleppo, 1 Homs)
Nat'l Airline+Tourism 2.5
Shipping (19 units) 28.5
TOTAL: 51
Conistent Spending
Gov't and Military Maintenance: 12 (Mech Inf. D. and Mech Flak D. to elite)
Level V Social net: 5

Assorted Spending
Developing Electronics Industry: 5
2 Shipping Units: 6
AL Research: 33

Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (1957)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Electronics Industry (1957)
Current Prediction for TL 7.5-1960

ARAB LEAGUE R&D SUMMARY
(Since this is the first posting, I'll do everything, but usually it'll just be the current year)

ALSA+Civil Nuclear Power Program

1953-Arab League Space Association (ALSA) begins
Syrian Contribution: V-1 Tech (donated), V-2 tech (donated), 4 points for MRBM tech, 5.75 to Power program (not shared until 1954)

1954-nuclear program added
Egyptian Contribution: 20 for finish MRBM, 11 for Fission 1, 13.25 for Fuel Separation Year I, 12 for Improved MRBMs
Syrian Contribution: 13.75 for Fission year 1

1955
Egyptian Contribution: 12 for IRBM, 1.75 for fuel Separation 1
Syrian Contribution: 9 for fuel Separation I, 13 for Fission II, 10 for Mercury Missions
German Contribution*: 12 for IRBM

*German points had been donated to Egypt and Syria for several years, but as they were funnelled into the AL anyways we cut out the middleman.

Somewhere I may have lost a point, but its all there on the spreadsheet.

As of Dec. 1955, the following techs will be complete (plus all before in the sequence)
IRBMs
Fuel Separation I
Fission I

EDITED both AL and Syrian builds

People doing AL builds, if you could scrape together 2 points for 1955, they would be rewarded (save themselves 22 points of research, quite a deal) It would allow Mercury missions in '56, and they'd get V-1s. I'd expect some of the richer members, like Oman and Arabia, could spare a point apiece.

United Islamic Republic Builds:

Spending Type: Market Economy Peacetime Growth 3% : 4 Commerce (4 merchant marine) + 12 Production (total production centers:6) + 3 oil + 0 tourism+6 points aid (Scandic Union *bows*) = 23 points

Population = 24 million

2x Garrison (Kabul, Teheran) .5 points
4x Mech. Inf. Division (Kabul, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz and Ahwaz) 2 points (Regular Trained)
5x Mujahideen Division (Kabul, Khandahar, Bandar Abbas, Tabriz, Ahwaz) 2.75 (Elite Trained)
1x Infantry Corps (Teheran) .75 points (Highly Trained)
1x Armored Division (Teheran) .5 points (Regular Trained)
2x Mech. Artillery Group (Bandar Abbas, Ahwaz) 1 point (Regular Trained)
2x Expert Pilots .5 points

Social Services:
Level 3 Social Services for everyone (7.5 points)

Training:
-

Foreign Purchase and Support:
4 Points SCT (Space Program Etc.)

Domestic Investments:
Rural Electrification (2nd year) 2.5 points
Jet Terminal 2 Points (remaining points next year)

Total Spent: 23

Total Remaining: 0

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available:54 -61% productivity-

Commerce:
1 national airline, 1 international airline, 21 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 10, Nantes 6, Lille 6, Marseilles 8, Toulouse 6, Rouen 6, Vichy 6, Lyon 6

Tech Level: 7

Income:
Production Centeres: 54*2 = 108 points

Commerce:Total= 38.5 points
Shipping= 33 points
Ocean Liner=1.5 points
National Airline= 2 points
International Airline= 2 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Investment Returns:
Ends 1982:
Yugoslavia= 1 point
Slovenia= 1 point
Albania & Kosovo= 1 point

Ends 1968:
Northwest Africa (Mali, Senegal and Guinea): 12 points

Total= 163.5 Points

Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 14.75 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
ESA Research= 10 points
Investment in Electronics Industry= 5 (Year 2/5)
Construction of 1 shipping unit= 3 points

Millitary Purchases:
5 Dassault Mirage III Fighters= 15 points
1 B57 Canberra medium light bombers= 3 points
10 Expert Pilots= 20 points
2 Garrison Units= 6 points

Total= 44 points


Forign Investment:
UIR oil Infrastructure Construction= 5 points <Awaiting approval of the UIR>
5 points Security Services to the Balkans= 5 points
10 points Aid to Yugoslavia & Albania and Kososvo each= 20 points
African Electrification: 3 (year Two)
Aid Package to Saudi Arabian rebuilding effort: 4.75 points

Growth:
.03*146.5=4.40---> 4 production centres

Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. <Done by end of this year>
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. <Small snag turned up, probably till 1957>
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. <Soon I gather>
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. <Yes>
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. <Yes>
6. Electronics Industry <Year 2>

OOC: BTW, your only at half your limit. At tech 7, it's two production centers per 1 million.

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1955 builds:

Population 33-35 million (Using 1.5% growth rate, calculated since 1950 and based on possible Geohive population graphs for South Korea, though it was hard to get an exact count).

Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%)
Oil Shock!--2% growth=2% growth

32 points Production centers: Seoul 4 Pusan 3 Pyongyang 3 Vladivostok 3 Kwangju 3

18 shipping units= 27 Points

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points

and 3 points of tourism (Seoul, Pyongyang, Vladivostok International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

58 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 3 social spending- 9 points

Foreign Aid- 3 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigades .25 points
2 HQ units- 2pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Korean Air Force:

2 Dassault Mirage III Fighters-2
6 expert pilots 1.50 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25
4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2
1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2


Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 20.5 Points (Estimated)

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

1 Infantry Division
1 Mountain Brigade

Things to buy-

5 Points- Subsidies to encourage development of an electronics industry
6 points to various SCT Cooperation projects (SCT Members know which one in particular)
14 points to CAR Oil Deal (7 per site) (Malkyer, one thing. How many oil sites are there in the Central Asian Republic? Cause if I need to, I'll budget more.)

OOC: I read one of those historical population graphs...I was stumped...

Requirements-Tech 7.5:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Got it)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (45% productivity, need to get crackin'!)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yeah)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Yeah)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Oh yeah.)
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Second Year Moving out, just three more)

Trade Partners for 1954-

4 USEA
4 China
3 Japan
2 FAS
1 Australia
1 Dispersed

7 points to CAR Oil Deal (Malkyer, one thing. How many oil sites are there in the Central Asian Republic? Cause if I need to, I'll budget more.)

According to the World In Flames map for Asia that GB provided us, the Central Asian Republic has six oil points, 4 around Baku (Caspian Sea) and 2 more roughly 700-800 kilometers to the northwest.

If I understand correctly what you mean by "oil site," then there are two such sites within the CAR.

China's build for 1955...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 292 industry + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 365 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 292 points + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 365 points total.

Other Income: 0 points.

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

40 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
146 points = Level III social services
6 points = Nuclear bomb production (12 bombs a year – stockpile of 36 nukes)

198 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

36 points for 12 units of Dassault Mirage III jet fighters
24 points for 12 pilot units.
60 points for 6 HQ units.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 4 of 10… 12 / 30 points)

24 points spent on H-Bomb Research (Year 3 of 3… 96 / 96 points)

5 points for development of Electronics Industry (Year 3 of 5… 15 / 25 points)

Other Expeditures:

5 points to Asian Space Program

10 points to Colombia (50 / 80. Remaining debt: 30 points)

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

5% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits and –1% from Economic Recession)
37 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1956 economy:

329 industry
50 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points and 10 airline points)
3 oil points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 402 income points for 1956.

According to the World In Flames map for Asia that GB provided us, the Central Asian Republic has six oil points, 4 around Baku (Caspian Sea) and 2 more roughly 700-800 kilometers to the northwest.

If I understand correctly what you mean by "oil site," then there are two such sites within the CAR.

the Persian oil should probably be increased to 5, and still have 4 at Baku

1955 - FNS

46 Million Population

146 base + 100 points from International Trade = 246

3 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Cali)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 66.5p


6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
1 x E121 Aircraft = .5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

134 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (144pts) + 53pts in federal reserve

Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
Education reform - 24pts
24 points for Solid Fuel (12 points left)
12 Points to Space Program
12 Points to put a chimp in space, woot.
4.5 points reperations for Native Indians in the FNS
12 points for Electronics Industry (3/5)
24 points for fourth Nuclear Power Plant in Caracas
32pts for 8 Me-121's
6pts for F4 Phantoms
10.5 to world bank
14pts to Federal Bank Reserve (to prevent any devaluation)
= 172.5

I still need to know the price of my Me-121, as well as the combat values.

BTW
Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Soon... Soon...)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 3 and soon 4!)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1957)

Parthini']OOC: BTW, your only at half your limit. At tech 7, it's two production centers per 1 million.

Really, then that means that I have been missing on a lot of growth and points...

Let me think; I reached tech 7 on 1952, had normal spending for two years and bonus from the EEC and that's about 10 production centres

On the plus side: more points

On the negative side: will take longer to get to tech 7.5

Thanks for telling me though

USEA 1955 build

Population: 51 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 1% SCT Economic Bonus- 2% growth from oil rescession = 2%}]

Economic budget: 148 points (Production centers [100]: Hanoi 3, Saigon, 3, Vientene 3, Pnomh Penh 3, Bangkok 3, Haiphong 3, Da Nang 3, Cam Ranh 3, Si Racha 3, Can Tho 3, Kampong Cham 2, Sattahip 2, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 2, Chiang Mai 2, Kampot 2. Commerce[40]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 24x Shipping Units 36 [12,000,000 million tons]. Tourism [5]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 2, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[2]: 1 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 25 points

Asian Space Program- 8 points

National Air Defense Warning System- 5 points

Civil Defence- 5 points

Electronics Industry- 5 points

SCT Project Contribution- 6 points

Military:

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Nuclear weapons production program- 6 points

6/24 AEW Research- 6 points

6x Elite pilots- 24 points

1x Armoured Division- 5 points

1x Mechanized Artillery Division- 5 points

3x Dassault Mirage III- 9 points

Maintenance:
4 Light infantry divisions 3 points,*
1 parachute brigade 1 points, [Hand picked]
1 HQ unit 1.5 points,*
5 marine light infantry brigades 3.75 points,*
4 marine mechanized infantry divisions 4 points,*
2 Mechanized flak groups 2 points,*
2 mechanized infantry division 2 points,*
-
1 Dassault Mirage III fighter unit 1 point,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit .5 points,
9 Ht-1 Jin Helicopter transport units 2.25 points
11 Elite pilots 5.5 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 points,
1 Light missile cruiser .5 points,
2 Light missile cruisers 1 point, {under construction}
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points,
2 Coastal Patrol Groups .5 points,
2 Nuclear Attack submarines 1 point,
2 Amphibious Assault Group 1 point

TOTAL= 33
(*Denotes elite training)



Conditions for tech level 7.5 advance:
Red indicates in progress, Blue indicates completed

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Launched this year by the ASA)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Year 1 of 5)

USEA trading Partners :
(36 points woth of shipping units)

Korea- 5

China- 5

FAS- 4

Japan- 4

The Phillipines- 4

Burma- 4

UIR- 4

Australia- 4

Dispersed- 3




Set NPC builds:

Baghdad 1955 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 5
Economy: (Normal Spending) [3% growth - 1% World Oil Crisis = 2% growth]
Economic Budget [9]: (Production Centres [4]: Baghdad 2. Oil [1]: 1 oil resource. Commerce [4]: 2x national airline 4

Domestic Spending:
Level 3 social spending 1 point,

2/5 national airline 2 points (40% complete)

Infrastructe improvements 2 points (60% complete)

Aid to Arab League- 2 points

Military Spending:

Maintenance:
1 garrison unit. 25 points,
4 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point,
1 artillery unit .25 points
1 Mechanized infantry division .5 points

Total= 2 points


Basra 1955 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 4
Economy: (Normal spending) [3% growth - 1% World Oil Crisis = 2% growth]
Economic Budget [13]: (Oil [2]: 2x oil resource 2. Commerce [11]: 9x shipping 9, 1x national airline 2.

Domestic Spending:

Level 3 social spending 1 point,
5/5 national airline 2 points, [100% Complete]
2x Shipping unit 6 points,
1x Shipping unit 2 points [To be completed next year]

Military Spending:

Maintenace:
1 garrison unit 1 point, [Elite Trained]
2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point [Highly Trained]

Total= 2 points.



Netherlands 1955 build
Population: 10 million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% Growth + 1 % EEC bonus - 1% World Oil Crisis
= 5%]
Economic Budget [35]: (Production Centres [13]:Rotterdam 4, Amsterdam 4, Arnheim 4, Groningen 1. Commerce [14] 1 national airline 2, 8 shipping units 12. Other [3]: 3 colonial points. Tourism [1]: Carribean colony 1. Growth [4]: 2x points of growth 4

Domestic Spending:
level 4 social spending 4 points,
1x National airline - 5 points
5x Shipping units- 15 points
4.5 to UN World Bank


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
2 reserve garrison units .5 points,
2 mechanized divisions 1 point,
2 coastal patrol groups .5 points,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers each) .5 points
2 escort cruisers 1 point,
1 F100 fighter wing .5 points,
1 F86D all weather fighter wing .5 points,
2 elite pilots 2 points,

Total= 6.5

Scandic Union
Build 1955
Population-21 million
50 prod centers-
Kiel 5, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 4, Tallin 3, Murmansk 3
30 shipping units
4 airlines
1 Nuclear power plant-Northern Finland
126 points Prod centers(national effort), 40 points commerce, 2 points tourism-168 points


33 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
6 points-Nuke program(4/5)
5 points-intel agency
4 points-Lv 4 Chemical warfare(3/5)
5 points-electronic industry(3/5)
12 points- research for Mercury type missions(Done)
5 points-1 man orbital mission(Mercury type)
24 points-solid fuel missiles(Done)
12 points-3 elite pilots
8 points- Saudi Arabia
10 points-UIR
15 points-Turkey
10 points-Intel operations in ME

11 left

Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement-
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.(Done)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.(Soon)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.(Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.(Done)
6. Electronics Industry (1957)



Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 2, Smyrnia 2, Izmir 2, Konya 2, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 17 shipping units=39 points+15 points Scandic Aid
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
2 TA183D fighter units, 2 expert pilots, 2 TA152 fighter bomber units, 2 expert pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes, 8 light infantry divisions (well trained) 4 militia units 8.5 points.
Purchase:
1 shipping-1.25(Done)
12 points-4 Saab Drakens
8 points-2 Elite Pilots
15 points-5 Shipping units 48
6 points-upgrade 2 light infantry to Mech infantry


Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 4, Alma Ata 3, 1 national airline, 3 international airline, 1 aiport(Tashkent)=24 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps, 3 pilots, 2 IL10, 1 garrison unit, 1 Saab Lansen 3 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy:
13 points-Prod center(11 left)

Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 1 shipping=9 points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
Airline-2(Done)


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 1 , Kashgar 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=7 points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
4 points-prod center(12 points left)


Ukrainian Budget 1955
Population: 37 million
Tech level: 7
Income (Normal): (32 prod centers)Stalino 6, Dneipopetrovsk 6, Kiev 6, Odessa 5, Kharkov 5, Sevastpool 4, 28 shipping units, 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 air terminal(Kiev)=114
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Maintenance: 19.25 points (1 HQ, 4 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 mech flak divisions, 5 elite armored divisions, 4 Saab Draken, 2 Saab Lansen 4 expert pilot, 10 destroyers, 40 corvettes).

Spending:83.75 points to spend
20 points-5 elite pilots
9 points- 3 Saab Draken
6 points-2 shipping
12 points-upgrade 2 infantry corp to mech
24 points-nuclear power plant(Help provided by SU)
3 points-S1 tracer
2 points-average pilot
5 points-armored division
3 points left



Polish Budget 1955
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
Production centers: (46 prod centers)Warsaw 6, Lodz 6, Krakow 6, Katowice 6, Brest-Litovsk 5, Lvov 6, Riga 6, Lublin 5,
30 shipping points, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 3 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz)=147
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 24.75 points (1 HQ, 2 elite armored corps, 8 elite infantry corps, 8 flak units, 4 Mig 21, 3 Saab Lansen, 2 Tu16, 1 KC135, 13 elite pilots).

Spending: 108.75 to spend

4.5 points-Civil Defense
24 points- Nuclear power plant(Help provided by SU)
21 points-7 Saab Drakens
2 points-1 Saab Lansens
4 points 1 elite pilot
15 points-3 armored divisions
18 points-3 infantry corps to 6 mech divisions
16 points-flak groups to mech flak groups
4.25 left

Could the oil points be put up on the front page? Like, what nations have how many. Also, do nuclear power plants give you points? And if not, what do they do exactly?

According to the World In Flames map for Asia that GB provided us, the Central Asian Republic has six oil points, 4 around Baku (Caspian Sea) and 2 more roughly 700-800 kilometers to the northwest.

If I understand correctly what you mean by "oil site," then there are two such sites within the CAR.

By site, as in a place that can be developed to get oil. So, probably you did understand. Adjustments in progress...

Could the oil points be put up on the front page? Like, what nations have how many. Also, do nuclear power plants give you points? And if not, what do they do exactly?

can't this week, but hope to have all of that by next week. Its a bit complicated and I still need to finish my taxes and deal with other real life issues

Thats fine.

Population:
17 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime Cutspending:
Growth = 5% (5+1-1) of 77.5 rounds is capped at 1 new Production Centers
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 34
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
24 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 40
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)

Budget for 1952: 34+4+40+1.5= 79.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
11.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
1 Garrison Unit at Average level--0.5 point
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Fighter Bomber--0.5 points
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
5 Gen. 3 jet fighters--5 points
21 Points Spent

Military Spending:
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions--8 points
1 Patrol/Escort Group--5 points
1 Coastal Patrol Group--3 points
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
IRBM research--12 points (finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--5 points
38 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in Domestic Electronics Agency (year 3)--5 points
Investment in East Timor Infastructure--3 points
Secret: Set up of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--1 point
9 Points Spent

11.5 + 21 + 38 + 9 = 77.5 Points Spent

Australian Commerce Breakdown
40 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 7; South Africa 5; China 4; Pakistan 3; USEA 3; Korea 2; Germany 2; FNS 2; Japan 2; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 2 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry (year 3 of 5)

Japanese Builds for 1955


Population: 89 million
Production Centers: 90
Shiiping & Air: 40
Tourism: 8
Total: 138

Lvl. 4 Social Safety net: 40

Maintenance total: 24.75

4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
4 Elite Light Infantry
2 Elite Pilots
2 Expert Pilots
Intelligence Agency
6 Garrison Units
10 Elite Flak Groups
2 HQ
3 Frigate Flotillas
Points Left: 73.25

Build/Purchase:
Electronics Industry (4th year): 5
Purchase 5 Mirgae III: 15
5 Elite Pilots: 20

Aid:
ASP: 20
Building Olympic facilities: 6
Aid to Phillipines: 5
Aid to CAR: 2.25

Requirments Met/meeting:

1. Lvl. 3 Social Safety net for 10 years
2. Electronics Industry (4th year)
3. Has the ability to make nuclear power plants (with the SCT?)
4. Has an airline and tourist industry
5. Created a communications satellite network (with SCT)

Ato-Sara Baghdad recieves V-2 Tech for contributing to ALSA, and will be eligible to send men into space when the time arrives (manned suborbital in 1957)

Korea has disbanded 1 Infantry Division and 1 Mountain Brigad, and enough equipment for either is available. Just sayin.

China puts the 15 extra points acquired from Japan for the purchase of the Dassault Mirages into the following...

7 points for SCT project.

6 points for 1 unit of Kirin Strategic Bomber.
2 points for 1 pilot.

--------------------

0 points left.

--------------------

China also re-shifts around its commerce to the following (should be considered permanent yearly roster until the next change)....

40 shipping units.

5 to Korea
5 to USEA
5 to Japan
5 to Phillipines
5 to Colombia
3 to UIR
2 to India / Pakistan
2 to Germany
2 to Egypt
2 to Syria
2 to Australia
2 to South Africa

Russia's Builds Comming Soon!

I still need to know the price of my Me-121, as well as the combat values.

BTW
Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Soon... Soon...)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 3 and soon 4!)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1957)

electronics industry no earlier then 1958, as it takes 5 years and you couldn't have started until 1953.

treat Me121 as an F4C Phantom for all purposes

Nigerian Build Edited (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10760678&postcount=525)

SA, I'm starting to pay off the debt.

All of the countries below have benefited recently from substantial US (or home grown in the case of Canada) investment in rural electrification and transportation infrastructure and even the relatively low tech nations have reached tech level 6. Canada will reach tech level 7.5 the same time as the US.

Kingdom of Morocco 1955
Population 11 million tech level 6.5
Production center: Casablanca 2, Tangiers 2, plus national airline, international airline, 1 colonial point Mauritania
Budget: 8 domestic +1 colonial + 4 commerce + 1 tourism = 14 points
Trading partners: Spain 1, US 1, Algeria 1, Africa 1
Level 3 social spending: 3.3 points
Army: 4 mountain brigades (well trained), 2 mechanized divisions (well trained) (equipped by US) 4 points
Air Force: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 F84 fighter bomber unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots, 2.5 points
Navy: 1 frigate unit, 1 coastal patrol unit .5 points
Social services and economic assistance to Mauritania 3.7 points

Liberia (independent nation) 1953
Population: 800,000, tech level 6
Production center: Monrovia 2, 1 national airline
Budget: 3 points (reduced spending)
Level 4 social services: 1 point
Military: 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, 1 light infantry division (well trained) .5 points, remaining budget spent on (1.25 points) spent on developing tourism

Philippines 1953
Population 22 million, tech level 6
Production centers: Manila 3, plus international and national airlines + 4 shipping units
Budget: 6 domestic + 8 commerce + 2 tourism = 16
Trading partners: US 2, Australia 1, East Asia 1
Level 3 social services: 6.6 points
Civil Defense: 2.2 points
PAF: 1 F101B fighter interceptor unit, 1 Neptune Maritime patrol unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 3 expert pilots (2.75 points)
Army: 1 well trained parachute brigade, 2 well trained marine light infantry brigades, 1 well trained light infantry division, 1 well trained flak unit (equipped with US SAMs), 3 reserve garrison units, (2.5 points)
Navy: 1 coastal patrol group, 1 escort group (corvettes), 1 amphibious group
(.75 points)
5 points to USAE space program (the Japanese aid is simply rolled into that)
remaining 1.2 points are being spent on improving tourism

Canada 1955
Population 15 million tech level 7
Production centers: Toronto 5, Thunder Bay 4, Montreal 2, Winnepeg 2, Vancouver 1, Halifax 1, oil center at Winnipeg, national air line, international airline, plus 10 shipping units,
Budget: 30 domestic + 1 oil + 20 commerce + 1.5 tourism = 52.5 points
Canada has reached its productivity limit and growth is keeping up with population growth (of 2%)
Trading partners: US 5, UK 5, Europe 5, East Asia 5
Level 4 Social Spending: 7 points
Civil Defense: 1.5 points
RCAF: 2 F101B all weather interceptors, 1 E121, 2 Hawker Hunter fighter bomber, 1 C130 transport unit, 1 Neptune maritime patrol unit, 1 KC135 tanker unit, 8 expert pilots, 7 points
Canadian Army: 2 elite airborne brigades, 1 elite mechanized division, 3 reserve mechanized divisions, 1 reserve HQ unit, 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot, 6.25 points
RCN: 1 frigate unit, 2 escort groups (corvettes), 1 submarine unit (5 snorkel submarines) 1.25 points
23 points subtotal
1955 purchases:
10 points to US to assist with Space effort
5 points on electronics industry
14 points toward nuclear power industry startup (US provides research and full assistance)(which is now paid for, Canada now has a nuclear fuel extraction program and will begin building power plants soon)

Iceland (includes Greenland)
Population 150,000, tech level 6
No production, 3 resources (fishing)
level 5 social spending 1 point, excess spent on developing tourism
Iceland has no military, and depends on Canadian and US protection

Cuba 1955
Population 6 million tech level 6
Havana 3 production centers
Budget: 6 domestic + 1 tourism
Level 4 social spending: 2 points, Civil Defense 1 point, Navy of 1 coastal patrol unit .25 points, Army with 1 well trained parachute brigade .5 points, Air Force with 1 helicopter unit, 1 expert pilot 1 point, (4.75 points total)
Remainder (1.25 points) being spent on improving tourist infrastructure
Cuba has decided to dispense with a large military, and primarily the Army spends its time doing disaster relief, while the Navy is essentially just a coast guard.

Central American nations 1955 (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras)
Population: 8 million, tech level 6
1 production center each Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador,
Budget: 8 points domestic +1 point tourism
Level 4 social spending: 3.6 points
Civil Defense: .72 points
Coast Guard: 2 Coastal Patrol groups .5 points
Air Force: 1 helicopter unit, 1 C82 transport unit, 2 expert pilots 2 points
The Central American nations have gotten rid of their militaries, retaining only a coast guard and air units to assist during time of disaster (hurricanes and earthquakes)

Mexico
Population: 35 million tech level 6.5
Production centers: Vera Cruz 2, Monterrey 3, Mexico City 3, Yucatan 3, Tampico 2, 2 oil points, 1 national airline
Budget: 13 domestic (reduced spending) + 2 commercial + 2 oil + 2 tourism = 16 points
level 3 social spending 11.5 points,
Civil Defense: 3.5 points
4 infantry corps 2 points
Coast Guard: 2 coastal patrol units .5 points
Air Force: 1 C82 transport unit, 1 F101B all weather interceptor unit, 2 expert pilots

Virgin Islands
Population: 50,000 tech level 6
1 international airline
budget: 1 point tourism
level 5 social services: .5 points
remainder spent on 2 coastal patrol units (.5 points)

Haiti
Population: 3 million, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 2 domestic points
Level 4 social spending: 1.5 points plus .25 points for 1 coastal patrol unit, .25 points for 1 C47 unit with average pilot

Dominican Republic
Population: 500,000, tech level 6
1 production center
Budget: 1 domestic points (cut spending) + 1 tourism +1 international airline = 3 points
Level 4 social spending: .25 points, coast guard of 2 patrol units .5 points, 2 light infantry divisions (well trained, both reserve units) 1 point, Civil defense: .12 points, remainder spent on purchasing nuclear power plants from US (which will be paid for in about 10 years but are built now)

SA, I'm starting to pay off the debt.

Duly noted. Maybe in a decade or two, after the Depression, I can help out again.

Duly noted. Maybe in a decade or two, after the Depression, I can help out again.

I think in a decade or two I'll be on my feet. My economy is going fast, despite the depression.

I think in a decade or two I'll be on my feet. My economy is going fast, despite the depression.

I may be wrong, but you'll probably have oil.

I may be wrong, but you'll probably have oil.

I have oil. 8)

US Budget 1955
Population 165 million tech level 7
Production centers 330 (maximum potential 330)
Shipping units 25
Oil 23
Colonial 5
Tourist income 15
Airlines 4 (international and national)

Trading Partners: Canada 4, Mexico 4, UK 3, Japan 4, Russia 4, Central America, Caribbean and Iceland 4, FNS 4, Africa 3, East Asia 3, Europe 4, South Asia 1, Australia 2

tech level 7.5 requirements met: Has level 3 services 10+ years, national airline, has built nuclear power plants, plus year 3 of 5 productivity maximum, year 3 of 5 electronics industry research, will have man in orbit in 1953. In other words, will reach tech level 7.5 as of 1958.

Income
660 domestic + 40 commerce +2 commerce (communications satellite bonus) + 23 oil + 5 colonial + 15 tourism = 745 points
1953 Growth 3% peacetime spending (which actually is keeping up with population growth of 3%)

US Air Force
Strategic Air Command (30.5 points)
2 B52C units, 2 B52D units, 2 B47 units, 6 KC135 units, 1 U2 unit, 13 elite pilots
100 Titan ICBMs in hardened silos
Tactical Air Command (24 points)
3 F4C fighter units, 8 F105 light bomber units, 2 B57 light bomber units, 2 KC97 tanker units, 16 elite pilots
Air Defense Command (9 points)
1 F4C fighter units, 2 F101B fighter units, 2 F104 fighter units, 1 EC121 airborne warning aircraft unit, 6 elite pilots plus National Air Defense Early Warning Radar Line,
Military Airlift Command (10 points)
1 C133 unit, 1 C124 unit, 5 C130 units, 2 C123 units, 3 C82 units, 12 elite pilots
Air National Guard / Air Force Reserve (32 points)
3 F100 fighter bomber wings, 6 F101B all weather jet fighter wings, 6 B57 Canberra jet light bomber wings 2 KC97 tanker units, 6 KC50 tanker units, 4 C82 theater airlift wings 25 elite pilots

US Navy
Naval and Marine Corps Aviation (36 points)
8 F8U fighter units, 8 A4 light bomber units, 1 A5 light bomber unit, 1 S1 AEW unit, 2 S2 ASW units, 5 helicopter units (sufficient to provide 15 carrier air wings and 4 carrier helicopter wings), 6 P2V Neptune Maritime patrol units, plus 25 elite carrier pilots, 6 elite pilots,
The Fleet (65.5 points)
10 heavy carrier battlegroups
5 fleet carrier (jet capable) battlegroups,
4 battleships (missile)
25 nuclear attack submarine
12 antiaircraft missile cruisers
12 escort cruisers
6 destroyer escort (frigate) squadrons (60 destroyer escorts and frigates)
4 attack submarine groups (20 snorkel boats)
4 assault carriers (converted Essex class) (carry USMC and USN helicopters)
4 amphibious assault groups
2 transport groups
2 Frigate flotillas (20 large USCG cutters).
4 Escort / Patrol Groups (80 small USCG cutters)

US Army
Army Aviation (5 points)
5 helicopter units, 5 elite pilots
Regular Army (21 points)
3 armored divisions, 3 mechanized divisions, 3 infantry divisions, 3 mountain brigades, 6 airborne brigades (elite) , 1 mechanized flak group, 1 mechanized artillery group, 3 armored brigades, 2 HQs (all well trained), 1 special forces group (battalion, handpicked), 1 ranger battalion (handpicked)

Army National Guard and Reserve (12 points)
2 HQs, 2 armored divisions, 2 mechanized divisions, 8 infantry divisions, 8 mechanized artillery groups, 4 helicopter units, 4 reserve pilots (elite)

US Marine Corps (4 points)
4 marine light infantry brigades (well trained) 2 points (2 Camp Pendleton, 2 Camp Lejune) 2 marine mechanized infantry brigades (well trained) 2 points (1 each Pendleton and Lejune),
US Marine Corps Reserve (1 point)
2 marine light infantry brigades, 1 marine mechanized infantry brigade,

Level 4 social services (all US including colonial territories) 85 points
Civil Defense 20 points
Intelligence Agency maintenance 5 points
Nuclear energy program 6 points

Military and Civilian research
Solid Rocket Technology (12 points, year 1 of 4)
Spy satellite technology 6 points (year 1 of 1)
Improved communications satellite technology 6 points (year 1 of 2)
Improved IRBM technology 12 points (year 2 of 2)
X –15C orbital flight technology (postponed for one year for further research)
Manned Space Flight (Gemini) (12 points, no orbital missions planned until next year)
Nuclear weapons research 12 points (ongoing improvements, US scales back testing to a half dozen tests a year spread between Pacific Proving Ground and Nevada Proving Ground. US also begins underground testing in Nevada instead of atmospheric to hide capabilities)

Military builds
1 Kitty Hawk class carrier battlegroup (year 3 of 3) 5 points (Franklin Roosevelt)
1 Kitty Hawk class carrier battlegroup (year 2 of 3) 5 points (Harry Truman)
Nuclear heavy escort cruiser Long Beach (year 2 of 2) 8 points
2 SSNs (Scamp, Scorpion) 10 points
Chemical weapons production (very very covert) 6 points (sufficient for 1 batch of types 1 – 6 chemical warfare agents, placed in storage at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona)
4 B52G strategic bomber units 24 points (will replace older B52s which will replace B57s in Air National Guard)
2 B58 heavy bomber units 12 points
2 pilots 4 points
4 KC135 tanker units 12 points (replace KC97)
4 C130 transport units 12 points (replace older transport aircraft)

Space Program
Manned Mercury Missions (10 points, 2 missions) +10 points from Canada (2 more Mercury Missions)
Unmanned Science satellite missions 15 points (15 missions)
additional 2 points each from South Africa and Australia plus 2 more from US (if provided) will be used to provide communications satellite networks for South Africa, Canada and Australasia
Maintain Communications satellite network 30 points (for US, South Africa, Canada, Australasia)
Maintain US Spy Satellite network 6 points
Maintain US Early Warning satellite network 6 points

Civilian Builds and Foreign Aid
Federal Highway project (Interstates) 30 points (year 3 of 3)
French Foreign Legion subsidy 2 points
electronics industry research (DARPA projects of various types)(year 3 of 5) 5 points
Nuclear powerplant construction (24 points for US)
Nuclear powerplant construction (12 points for Haiti and Dominican Republic)
Nuclear powerplant construction (24 points for Cuba)
Nuclear powerplant construction aid to Russia 64 points (sufficient for starting 5 projects for this year, next year will need 5 more plus 11 points from Russia this year to build another project)

British Builds 1955
Standard market economy, 3% growth, plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth, minus 2% for recession.

Production Centres:

UK: 104 as follows: 16 London, 14 Birmingham, 10 Coventry, 8 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds, 3 Derby, 3 Nottingham,

Colonial: 32 as follows: 6 Kenya, 4 Tanzania, 4 Carribean, 2 Cyprus, 2 Ceylon, 2 Uganda, 2 Rwanda, 1 Congo, 2 Gabon, 1 Equatorial Guinea, 2 Cameroon, 2 Central African Republic, 2 Chad,

TOTAL: 136 production centres

INCOME
Production Centres: 272 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign))
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 5 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German Nuclear Research: 6 points
From German government for ESA program: 24 points
From French government for ESA program: 10 points
Nuclear Points: 1 (Windscale, Cumbria).

TOTAL: 373

growth yields 7 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 70
level 4 social services for UK (52m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (68m): 34
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance for production)
6 points for super nuclear weapons research (year 1 of 10)
24 points to finish Solid Fuel missile program (48/48 complete)
12 points for space research (Gemini style missions) (12/12 complete)
UK and Empire Civil Defence 12 points
UK National Air Defence RADAR network 5 points
15 points to maintain 150 ICBMs
Extraordinary Expenditure:
5 points for tech 7.5 electronics research (year 3/5)
Manned Gemini space launches 6 attempts = 30 points
10 points for 100 large ICBM missiles
10 points for 240 improved IRBM missiles
20 points for silos for above.
2 Nuclear Power Stations = 48 points

Royal Navy modernisation Program
2 Nuclear Powered heavy carrier groups, 3 years build time remains
3 Nuclear Powered fleet carrier groups, jet capable, 3 years build time remains
12 Nuclear Powered Cruisers, 4 heavy missile, 4 light missile, 4 AA, (total cost 200 points, 64 spent so far, all started at the same time and so none will be finished until entire points cost paid).

UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK useage only)

Early Warning Satellite Network 6 points
Communications Satellite Network 6 points
Spy Satellite Network 6 points

Total: 373

Preliminary Russian National Builds – 1955
Normal Spending Enacted
80 (x2) Factories + 38 Commerce (20 Shipping Units + 4
Airlines) + 3 Oil + 4 Tourism = 205

Military Upkeep:
6 Infantry Corps (3 Points)
2 Elite Mountain Divisions (6 Brigades) (5 Points)
4 Yak 25 w/ Expert Pilots (6 Points)
2 Yak 28 w/ Expert Pilots (3 Points)
2 Air Transports w/ Average Pilots (.5 Points)
4 Elite Mechanized Infantry Divisions (5 Points)
5 Elite Armored Brigades (3.75 Points)
Total: 26.25 Points

Civilian Builds/Research:
Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Intelligence Network: 5 Points
Improve Electronics Industry: 5 Points (Year 2/5)
Intermediate (IRBM) range missiles: 24 Points
National Air Defense Radar Network: 10 Points
Nuclear Power Plants: 64 Points (? Plants) (1/?)
Civil Defense Network: 10 Points
4 Factories: 96 Points

Spent: 204.25 Points
Waste: .75 Points

How many oil points does Egypt have? I did a little research and found out that an oil industry have been going in Egypt since 1910 in RL. There's also off-shore oil in the Cairo Gulf but that isn't found until the late 80's. In otherwords, shouldn't I have enough oil to support my own economy without growth loss?

Egypt has enough oil to fuel its armed forces at current levels, but not really enough for its civilian economy as well.

I have been working on rules

a few notes so far: (and this isn't ready yet)

Energy sources / production centers supported / environmental impact
Coal / 5 / severe
Hydroelectric / 2 / serious
Oil / 10 / some
Natural Gas / 5 / minimal
Nuclear / 3 / some

All commerce and tourism requires oil (1 oil point for each airline unit plus every 10 points of tourism)
Military units (except for nuclear powered warships) require oil as well. 1 Oil point supports 10 units.

However, it will take signficant research to figure out how much oil, coal, hydroelectric power, and natural gas is available and how to quantify that in game terms. Which is why this is taking a bit of time.

Environmental effects are going to start being a factor very, very soon. In this RP, the world has more industry already then it had in the 1970s in real life. Environmental consequences will act as a brake on growth, and in severe cases, result in negative growth and also result even in negative population growth (deaths and migration). Even hydroelectric power stations have their issues (Aswan Dam for example has greatly increased the salinity of the Med, and the loss of the annual floods has forced Egypt to use a lot of fertilizer, which then runs off into the Med increasing the environmental damage). A lot of environmental damage is not immediately apparent, and may not show up until later in the century.

Figuring out the effects of food supplies, fishing and industrial raw materials (like rare metals etc) is also something I am kicking around, but its complicated as can be as well.

Previous spending on nuclear power by the way produces 1 Nuclear energy point (at the cost of 24 production points) which represents a certain number ((I am still figuring out how many) nuclear power stations.

Fresh water for some nations is going to be an issue as well (for example, Libya and Algeria have vast expanses of desert, as does Syria).

By the way, any nation that has reached tech level 6, and has at least social level 3 spending can reduce its population growth significantly (by about half of historical rate if it was non industralized in the real world in the 20th CenturY). This should help a lot with the future demographic bomb. This is especially true of the Caribbean, Latin America, India, China and the Philippines.

Is there any way to increase population growth?

Is there any way to increase population growth?

Not really except by by welcoming to immigration.

So, one oil point means I can support 10 of my industrial centers?

So, one oil point means I can support 10 of my industrial centers?

yes, although as I said above, these are working notes and I am still ironing out some things.

I need to voice my concern about the new system.

I welcome the new diversity and new ideas how to make E20 even more engrossing and in-depth. My concern is that it will only get more complicated and hard to keep track of for the individual players when we add more different systems. For example, we had a simple system during the 1920's then the "economy modes" were introduced, as well as "research projects" and "commerce".

We coped with that, and it actually worked out pretty well through the 1930's and early 1940's. Then we got oil points added and tourism and airlines.Added more stuff like "rural electrification" and "nuclear power plants" and chemical weapons and stuff like that. The tech level requirements, developing electronics, space stuff, nuke stuff, special ops, etc. got added as well.

That worked (but is getting a little confusing and slightly tricky to keep track of). Now we're looking at enviromental "point system", as well as "resource allocation system". Wasn't this the very thing that GB and other economic mods thought was too complicated or troublesome to implement a few months ago? I remember proposing the idea of coal, steel, rubber, gemstones, gold, and other special resources and people said it was too complicated?

My main concern is basically this...

"How many ongoing 'systems' will we have before it gets to be too much to keep track of?"

Pretty soon we'll need to hire a computer programmer to create an economic program for E20- pretty scary when you think about it. E20 becoming its own computer game outside of NS. Hell, GB you can be a game designer or something. ;)

I need to voice my concern about the new system.

I welcome the new diversity and new ideas how to make E20 even more engrossing and in-depth. My concern is that it will only get more complicated and hard to keep track of for the individual players when we add more different systems. For example, we had a simple system during the 1920's then the "economy modes" were introduced, as well as "research projects" and "commerce".

We coped with that, and it actually worked out pretty well through the 1930's and early 1940's. Then we got oil points added and tourism and airlines.Added more stuff like "rural electrification" and "nuclear power plants" and chemical weapons and stuff like that. The tech level requirements, developing electronics, space stuff, nuke stuff, special ops, etc. got added as well.

That worked (but is getting a little confusing and slightly tricky to keep track of). Now we're looking at enviromental "point system", as well as "resource allocation system". Wasn't this the very thing that GB and other economic mods thought was too complicated or troublesome to implement a few months ago? I remember proposing the idea of coal, steel, rubber, gemstones, gold, and other special resources and people said it was too complicated?

My main concern is basically this...

"How many ongoing 'systems' will we have before it gets to be too much to keep track of?"

Pretty soon we'll need to hire a computer programmer to create an economic program for E20- pretty scary when you think about it. E20 becoming its own computer game outside of NS. Hell, GB you can be a game designer or something. ;)

It was your idea ... remember a few weeks ago when you wanted to keep track of that?

Seriously though, thats why I am still trying to see if this is workable without being too complex

I design games in my spare time by the way

Its still easier then keeping track of the actual stats though... and its a way to quantify for example Chinese dam projects you keep mentioning.

It was your idea ... remember a few weeks ago when you wanted to keep track of that?

Seriously though, thats why I am still trying to see if this is workable without being too complex

I design games in my spare time by the way

Its still easier then keeping track of the actual stats though... and its a way to quantify for example Chinese dam projects you keep mentioning.

I appreciate that, GB. Its just that I want E20 to have good diversity and in-depth without getting too overwhelming (should new players decide to join E20 in the future).

I'm more than willing to "roll with it" / support the resource stuff. All I want is that it be easy-to-understand system and keep track of. Funny, isn't it? Our positions are somewhat reversed, I first proposed this idea and you and other economic mods were like "It might be too complex". Now you're advocating this and I'm the "It may be too complex" crowd. Talk about irony, eh?

Anyways, again, I'm willing to go with this resource point system. If it becomes too much of a headache, we can drop it. We could give it a trial run and see how it works out. How's that?

like I said, still fiddling with it to see if its workable

Egypt has enough oil to fuel its armed forces at current levels, but not really enough for its civilian economy as well.

I have been working on rules

a few notes so far: (and this isn't ready yet)

Energy sources / production centers supported / environmental impact
Coal / 5 / severe
Hydroelectric / 2 / serious
Oil / 10 / some
Natural Gas / 5 / minimal
Nuclear / 3 / some

All commerce and tourism requires oil (1 oil point for each airline unit plus every 10 points of tourism)
Military units (except for nuclear powered warships) require oil as well. 1 Oil point supports 10 units.

However, it will take signficant research to figure out how much oil, coal, hydroelectric power, and natural gas is available and how to quantify that in game terms. Which is why this is taking a bit of time.

Environmental effects are going to start being a factor very, very soon. In this RP, the world has more industry already then it had in the 1970s in real life. Environmental consequences will act as a brake on growth, and in severe cases, result in negative growth and also result even in negative population growth (deaths and migration). Even hydroelectric power stations have their issues (Aswan Dam for example has greatly increased the salinity of the Med, and the loss of the annual floods has forced Egypt to use a lot of fertilizer, which then runs off into the Med increasing the environmental damage). A lot of environmental damage is not immediately apparent, and may not show up until later in the century.

Figuring out the effects of food supplies, fishing and industrial raw materials (like rare metals etc) is also something I am kicking around, but its complicated as can be as well.

Previous spending on nuclear power by the way produces 1 Nuclear energy point (at the cost of 24 production points) which represents a certain number ((I am still figuring out how many) nuclear power stations.

Fresh water for some nations is going to be an issue as well (for example, Libya and Algeria have vast expanses of desert, as does Syria).

By the way, any nation that has reached tech level 6, and has at least social level 3 spending can reduce its population growth significantly (by about half of historical rate if it was non industralized in the real world in the 20th CenturY). This should help a lot with the future demographic bomb. This is especially true of the Caribbean, Latin America, India, China and the Philippines.

OOC: Even though no one cares about Brazil, I think it’s good that we're making E20 a real in-depth game. That’s what makes E20, it’s the most real RP.

Preliminary Russian National Builds – 1955
Normal Spending Enacted
80 (x2) Factories + 38 Commerce (20 Shipping Units + 4
Airlines) + 3 Oil + 4 Tourism = 205

Military Upkeep:
6 Infantry Corps (3 Points)
2 Elite Mountain Divisions (6 Brigades) (5 Points)
4 Yak 25 w/ Expert Pilots (6 Points)
2 Yak 28 w/ Expert Pilots (3 Points)
2 Air Transports w/ Average Pilots (.5 Points)
4 Elite Mechanized Infantry Divisions (5 Points)
5 Elite Armored Brigades (3.75 Points)
Total: 26.25 Points

Civilian Builds/Research:
Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Intelligence Network: 5 Points
Improve Electronics Industry: 5 Points (Year 2/5)
Intermediate (IRBM) range missiles: 24 Points
National Air Defense Radar Network: 10 Points
Nuclear Power Plants: 64 Points (? Plants) (1/?)
Civil Defense Network: 10 Points
4 Factories: 96 Points

Spent: 204.25 Points
Waste: .75 Points

Could someone please help me on this? Any help would be very much appreciated.

EDIT: By the way, I am very much against making the economic system any more complex as it already is. Quite frankly while it adds 'flavor' to a certain extent, it makes the already complex sytem even more complex so much so that new members will be unable to learn it. Hell I barely understand it and I have been here since the begining.

Gambia

Pop: 300,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), 2 points from 2 shipping units,
Spending: level 4 social .25 points; .25 point to maintain an infantry division, .5 points to build one shipping unit (3/3), 2 points to start another.
Growth: 0

Togo

Pop: 1.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa), 3 points from 3 shipping units
Spending: 0.75 points for level 4 social services, 0.5 points to maintain 2 infantry divisions. 2.25 to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 2.5 points towards 40 missile boats for coastal patrols (bought from UK shipyards) (2.5/3)
Growth: 0

Ghana

Pop: 5.8 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa), 1 point from one shipping unit.
Spending: level 4 social services 3 points, .5 points to maintain infantry division and garrison, .25 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 1.25 points to start another (1.25/3)
Growth: 0

Senegal

Pop: 2.9 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Dakar, 8 from 8 shipping units,
Spending: 1.5 points for level 4 social services, 0.25 points to maintain an infantry division. .5 to finish a shipping unit (3/3). 3 points to France in loan repayments (year 1 out of 15), 3 points for a unit of missile boats (mixture of French and British ships), 1.75 points for a pilot unit (1.75/2).

Sierra Leone
Pop: 2.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Freetown, 1 point from one shipping unit.
Spending: Level 4 services 1 points, .25 points to maintain one infantry division. .5 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 1.25 points towards a shipping unit (1.25/3)

The cuts will have to be taken into account for 1955 and 1956 at least, but the rest of the White sheet will not change severely...from what was originally planned...

Could someone please help me on this? Any help would be very much appreciated.

EDIT: By the way, I am very much against making the economic system any more complex as it already is. Quite frankly while it adds 'flavor' to a certain extent, it makes the already complex sytem even more complex so much so that new members will be unable to learn it. Hell I barely understand it and I have been here since the begining.

Two bits of advice I can give you:

1. You can round like I do when I calculate total expenses for military expenditures and adding growth, and save yourself the headache of dealing with fractions.

2. Put it towards your electronics industry or another major project, if possible.

Could someone please help me on this? Any help would be very much appreciated.

OK my take on your economy is as follows, i'll make additions/changes in bold for you to make it easy to see:

Preliminary Russian National Builds – 1955
Normal Spending Enacted
80 (x2) Factories + 38 Commerce (20 Shipping Units + 4
Airlines) + 3 Oil + 4 Tourism = 205

Growth at 3%, minus 2% for world depressions= 1%
Results in 2 new factories for next year

Military Upkeep:
6 Infantry Corps (3 Points)
2 Elite Mountain Divisions (6 Brigades) (4.5 Points)
4 Yak 25 w/ Expert Pilots (5 Points)
2 Yak 28 w/ Expert Pilots (1.5 Points)
2 Air Transports w/ Average Pilots (1 Point)
4 Elite Mechanized Infantry Divisions (4 Points)
5 Elite Armored Brigades (3.75 Points)
Total: 22.75 Points

Civilian Builds/Research:
Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Intelligence Network: 5 Points
Improve Electronics Industry: 5 Points (Year 2/5)
Intermediate (IRBM) range missiles: 24 Points
National Air Defense Radar Network: 10 Points
Nuclear Power Plant: 14 Points (towards one Plant, currently 14/24 built)
Civil Defense Network: 10 Points
4 Factories: 96 Points

Spent: 204.75 Points

Surplus: .25 points, my advice: put it into a "secret account" which can be used to fund any intel activities the KGB wants to perform over the next year.

1955 - FNS

46 Million Population

146 base + 100 points from International Trade = 246

3 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Bogota)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 66.5p


6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
1 x E121 Aircraft = .5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

134 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (144pts) + 53pts in federal reserve

Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
Education reform - 24pts
24 points for MIRVs
15 - Fleet Carrier (1 / 3 years)
9 points for education reform
6 Points to Joint Space Program with the US
4.5 points reperations for Native Indians in the FNS
12 points for Electronics Industry (2/5)
24 points for fourth Nuclear Power Plant in Caracas
24 points for fifth Nuclear Power Plant in Quito
38pts for 10 Me-121's
8.5 to world bank
10pts to Federal Bank Reserve (to prevent any devaluation)
= 172.5


BTW
Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Soon... Soon...)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 3 and soon 4!)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1958)

More nuclear powerplants will be extended to: Georgetown, La Paz, Asuncion, Panama, and Cali.

Originally Posted by Elephantum
1956 Syrian Economy (NATIONAL EFFORT Market)
Population: 5 million (4 million Syria, 1 million Lebanon)
Income
Production: 30 (10 centers, 3 Damascus, 2 Beirut, 1 Latakia, 1 Tripoli, 2 Aleppo, 1 Homs)
Nat'l Airline+Tourism 2.5
Shipping (21 units) 31.5
TOTAL: 51
Conistent Spending
Gov't and Military Maintenance: 12 (Mech Inf. D. and Mech Flak D. to elite)
Level V Social net: 5

Assorted Spending
Developing Electronics Industry: 5
2 Shipping Units: 6
AL Research: 33
AL Space Missions: 3 (2 unmanned sub-orbital mercury, 1 animal sub-orbital)

Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (1957)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Electronics Industry (1958)
Current Prediction for TL 7.5-1960


Preliminary, should be final unless anyone messes with me in the apparent war on the horizon.

Also, in addition to funding research, AL members can fund sub-orbital unmanned/animal Mercury-style missions in 1956. Manned will wait until 1957. However, there is no technological compensation for funding launches (quite a system we have here)

Federation of Asian States, 1956 Build, Tech Level 7
Spending Type: Market Economy National Effort (Year 4), Growth: 1% (normally 1%, but extra 1% from SCT would make it 2%, but the oil-crisis has hit Pakistan, so that's another -1%, since Pakistan still has oil).

45 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline) + 114 from production centers (39 production centers: 6 Agra, 2 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 2 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 2 Peshawar [2 in Madras from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 179 points


Population: 400 million people

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 2 (Highly Trained)
x1 Mechanized .75 (Highly Trained)
x14 Pilots 3.5 (Expert)
x4 C47 1
x2 MiG21 2
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1.25 (Highly Trained)
x25 Light Infantry 12.5 (Highly Trained)
x17 Armored 12.75 (Highly Trained)
x3 Infantry 1.5 (Highly Trained)
x2 Parachute Divisions 1 point (Highly Trained)
x4 Improved MRBMs 4 points
x9 Mustard Gas "batches" 0
x1 Intelligence Agency 5 points
Total Spent: 50

Total Remaining: 129 points

Social Services:
Level II Social Services for everyone (80 points)

Total Spent: 130

Total Remaining: 49 points

Construction:
x1 Production Center (Agra) 24 points
x1 Home-grown electronics industry (Year 2) 5 points
Total Spent: 159

Total Remaining: 20

Military Purchases:

Total Spent:159

Total Remaining: 20

Aid to other nations:
SCT: 10
Mozambique: 10

Total Spent: 179

Total Remaining: 0

Predicted 1957 Budget (Note: Taking into account continuation of National Effort):
45 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline) + 126 from production centers (42 production centers: 7 Agra, 2 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 2 Peshawar [2 in Calcutta from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 191 points

Progress Towards Tech Level 7.5:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry. (Year 2/5)

Progress Towards Tech Level 7.5:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry. (Year 2/5)

Comm satellite network is active for 1956. You also have Nuke power plant research but not infrastructure so that should be in progress.

Comm satellite network is active for 1956. You also have Nuke power plant research but not infrastructure so that should be in progress.

Hokie-day!

With investors still nervous about the Saudi Arabian situation, the price of oil climbs sharply again with the new crisis in Northern Europe (ooc no game effect as of yet though other then current recession)

1956

The United Egyptian, Sudanese, and Palestinian Republics
Population: 32 Million
Tech Level: 7
Production: 114
21 Egyptian Centers (42)
Egyptian National Airline (2)
Egyptian International Airline (2)
Egyptian Tourism (2)
Egyptian Shipping (21)
8 Sudanese Centers (16)
Sudanese National Airline (2)
Sudanese International Airline (2)
Sudanese Tourism (1)
Sudanese Shipping (9)
2 Palestinian Centers (4)
Palestinian National Airline (2)
Palestinian International Airline (2)
Palestinian Tourism (1)
Palestinian Shipping (6)

Maintenance: 27.75
5 Elite Trained Garrison Units (3.75)
4 Elite Trained Mountain Infantry Brigades (3)
4 Elite Trained Armored Divisions (4)
4 Elite Pilots (2)
2 Elite Trained Armored Brigades (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Light Infantry Divisions (1.5)
2 Elite Trained Flak Brigades (1.5)
2 Dassault Mirage III (2)
1 Elite Trained Mechanized Divisions (1)
1 Hawker Hunters (.5)
1 S-1 Tracer (1)
1 HQ (1)
Intelligence Agency (5)

Production: 67
Level 3 Social Services: 12
Electronics Industry: 5 (Year 3 of 5)
Egyptian Production Center: 24
Sudanese Production Center: 24
AL Unmanned sub-orbital Mission: 1
AL Animal sub-orbital Mission: 1

Foreign Aid: 19.25
Ethiopia: .5
AL: 18.25

Budget: 114
Total Costs: 114

Tech Level 7.5 (Must meet at least 4 of the conditions plus #6)
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (On Year 5 of 10)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (Have 31 of 48 needed factories)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Researching IRBMs)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Year 3 of 3 for Fission Research)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Both for all Republics)
6. 5 points for Electronics Industry for 5 Years (On Year 3 of 5)

The Empire of Abyssinia (Ethiopia)
Population: 20 Million
Tech Level: 5
Production: 15.5
4 Production Centers (8)
Natural Resources (1)
National Airline (2)
International Airline (2)
Shipping (2)
United Republican Aid (.5)

Maintenance: 3.5
8 Light Infantry Divisions: (2)
2 Mountain Infantry Brigades (.5)
2 Infantry Corps: (1)

Production: 12
Lv.3 Social Services: 6
Production Center: 6 (1/4 Done)

Budget: 15.5
Total Costs: 15.5

As I've been out of contact for a while, and will remain so for the forseeable future, I am appointing New Dornalia to be Economic Mod until I am able to resume regular posting, unless he doesn't have the time or desire, in which case someone else may volunteer. If the new Moderator wants to post a new thread so that they may edit things, feel free to do so.

I will retroactively do South African builds once I get back, unless SA is given to a new player.

German Build 1956
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC-2% Depression
Production: 124, 2 oil points, 3 Nuclear Power, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 8 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 3 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 3 Karlsruhe, 3 Saarbrucken, 3 Stuttgart, 6 Munich, 4 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 3 Karlsbad, 3 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 4 Konigsburg, 3 Breslau, 3 Posen

Regular Spending: 248 Industry+2 oil+3 Nuke Power+10 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=311 points

Maintenance (126):
33 Highly Trained Garrisons-16.5
40 Elite Pilots-20
5 Regular Pilots-Free
18 Elite Mechanized Inf-13.5
10 Elite Armored-10
1 Special Forces Alpine-1
6 Special Forces Paratrooper-6
8 Elite Mech Flak-8
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

3 HQ-3

6 Arado Ar 232-3 points
6 Do 337-3
19 TA200-9.5 points
11 BAC Lightning-11
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

3 Attack Submarine-1.5

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (44):
Level 4 for 88 Million-44 points

Civilian Builds (119):

Electronics Industry Research-5 points (Year 3/5)

Nuclear Power Plant-24 points

Space Plane Research-12 points (Year 1/4)

Spy Satellite Network-6 points

Communications Satellite Network-6 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-20 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

2% Growth: 6 Industry Centers

20 points for Arabian Oil
16 points to Arab League
10 points to Kurdistan

Military Builds (12):

2x Coastal Patrol Units-6 points

Nuclear Maintainance-6 points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1957
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 124, 2 oil points, 4 Nuclear Power, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus)
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 8 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 4 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 3 Stuttgart, 7 Munich, 4 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 3 Karlsbad, 4 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 4 Konigsburg, 3 Breslau, 4 Posen

Parthini']
Regular Spending: 248 Industry+2 oil+3 Nuke Power+10 airline+40 shipping+8 tourist=311 points


It was my understanding and according to the main page that 40 points total could be gained from commerce and only 10 of those 40 points could come from air commerce.
The only exception to this rule are the 5% and 10% bonuses granted by communications satellite networks and improved communications satellite networks respectively.

You have 10 too many commerce points.

I was also not aware that nuclear power plants provided any economic gain, research into previous pages and the main page seems to confirm that they do not.

Citing a lack of Arab League participation in Arab League programs (2 points from members [excluding Syria and Egypt], 28 points from non-Members (Germany), Syria calls for each member state to fund 5 points for the program over the next 5 years, at whatever rate they can best afford (1 point per year sounds reasonable enough)

It was my understanding and according to the main page that 40 points total could be gained from commerce and only 10 of those 40 points could come from air commerce.
The only exception to this rule are the 5% and 10% bonuses granted by communications satellite networks and improved communications satellite networks respectively.

You have 10 too many commerce points.

I was also not aware that nuclear power plants provided any economic gain, research into previous pages and the main page seems to confirm that they do not.

Considering the economic mod (Malkyer) is doing it, as is every other nation, I would think that that's how we do it.

I'm just following the masses.

As to Nuclear Power Plants, GB has said several times that every nuclear power plant will provide 1 point as well as add an electrical bonus which he was developing later. Makes sense, too, considering it costs 24 points to build 1...

Parthini']Considering the economic mod (Malkyer) is doing it, as is every other nation, I would think that that's how we do it.


well, that's frustrating...

It was my understanding and according to the main page that 40 points total could be gained from commerce and only 10 of those 40 points could come from air commerce.
The only exception to this rule are the 5% and 10% bonuses granted by communications satellite networks and improved communications satellite networks respectively.

You have 10 too many commerce points.

I was also not aware that nuclear power plants provided any economic gain, research into previous pages and the main page seems to confirm that they do not.

The correct commerce should be as follows...

Tech Level 6 - 7

40 merchant points (sea commerce)
10 airline points (for air based commerce)

Tech Level 7.5

50 merchant points (sea)
20 airline points (air)

Tech Level 8

50 merchant points (sea)
30 airline points (air)*

* = I'm not sure, I remember GB saying that 50 will be the max for sea commerce while air-based commerce will keep going up every tech level advancement from 7 to 7.5 to 8. Probaby by Tech Level 9 the maximum air commerce could equal the amount of sea commerce.

I doubt it. I also remember GB saying that shipping still carries more cargo than planes have, and will for a long time.

And I don't think there's a change in commerce at tech level 7.5, but I'm not sure.

The correct commerce should be as follows...

Tech Level 6 - 7

40 merchant points (sea commerce)
10 airline points (for air based commerce)

Tech Level 7.5

50 merchant points (sea)
20 airline points (air)

Tech Level 8

50 merchant points (sea)
30 airline points (air)*

* = I'm not sure, I remember GB saying that 50 will be the max for sea commerce while air-based commerce will keep going up every tech level advancement from 7 to 7.5 to 8. Probaby by Tech Level 9 the maximum air commerce could equal the amount of sea commerce.



No, look here is a quote from the main page:


Build points provided by merchant marine and airlines do not count against the population limit for build points (the advantages of trade). However, no more than 30 build points can be earned that way. (there is a limit to how much the international economy will support after all) at tech levels 4 – 6, and no more then 40 points at tech level 7 and 50 points at tech level 8.

This clearly states that the 40 point limit is air and sea commerce combined.


As for nuclear powerplants, I looked through GB's build and he doesn't have any points from nuclear power listed.


And I don't think there's a change in commerce at tech level 7.5, but I'm not sure.

At Tech lvl 7.5 overall commerce goes up to 50 with 20 of that 50 able to come from air commerce.

There is no change for Tech lvl 8

Weren't power plants supposed to work as Oil points?

Yes, and Oil points count as production points.

Ato-Sara, that is really old news.

Tech Level 6 = maximum of 40 points

30 sea commerce (1 point per merchant vessel)
10 air commerce

Tech Level 7 = maximum of 50 points

40 sea commerce (1.5 points per merchant vessel)
10 air commerce


At least thats what GB and the other economic mods implemented.

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1956 builds:

Population 33-35 million (Using 1.5% growth rate, calculated since 1950 and based on possible Geohive population graphs for South Korea, though it was hard to get an exact count).

Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%)
Oil Shock!--2% growth=2% growth

34 points Production centers: Seoul 4 Pusan 4 Pyongyang 3 Vladivostok 3 Kwangju 3

18 shipping units= 27 Points

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points

and 3 points of tourism (Seoul, Pyongyang, Vladivostok International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

60 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 3 social spending- 9 points

Foreign Aid- 3 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigades .25 points
2 HQ units- 2pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Korean Air Force:

1 Dassault Mirage III Fighter-1
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25
4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2
1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 20 Points (Estimated)

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

1 Dassault Mirage III and 1 expert pilot unit (to UIR)

Things to buy-

5 Points- Subsidies to encourage development of an electronics industry
14 points to finish that production center
3 points towards a shipping unit
1 point towards the Asian Economic Fund (pan-SCT fund used for development)

OOC: I read one of those historical population graphs...I was stumped...

Requirements-Tech 7.5:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Got it)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (45% productivity, need to get crackin'!)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yeah)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Yeah)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Oh yeah.)
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Third Year Moving out, just three more)

Trade Partners for 1954-

2 USEA
2 China
2 Japan
2 FAS
2 UIR
2 Australia
2 Burma
1 Dispersed

OOC: In progress. BTW, I must respectfully decline the position of full Economic Mod; somehow, I don't think I'm ready yet.

China's build for 1956...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 329 industry + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 402 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 329 points + 50 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 402 points total.

Other Income: 0 points.

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

60 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
146 points = Level III social services
6 points = Nuclear bomb production (12 bombs a year – stockpile of 48 nukes)

217 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

66 points for 11 units of Kirin Strategic Jet Bombers
22 points for 11 pilot units.
10 points for 1 HQ unit.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 5 of 10… 15 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 1 of 5… 6 / 30 points)

5 points for development of Electronics Industry (Year 4 of 5… 20 / 25 points)

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (60 / 80. Remaining debt: 20 points)

65 points left.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

5% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits and –1% from Economic Recession)
40 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1957 economy:

369 industry
50 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points and 10 airline points)
3 oil points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 442 income points for 1957.

OOC: In progress. BTW, I must respectfully decline the position of full Economic Mod; somehow, I don't think I'm ready yet.

I can handle it for now

Ato-Sara, that is really old news.

Tech Level 6 = maximum of 40 points

30 sea commerce (1 point per merchant vessel)
10 air commerce

Tech Level 7 = maximum of 50 points

40 sea commerce (1.5 points per merchant vessel)
10 air commerce


At least thats what GB and the other economic mods implemented.

In that case I can have a lot more points than I though I could

USEA 1956 build

Population: 51 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 1% SCT Economic Bonus- 2% growth from oil rescession = 2%}]

Economic budget: 153 points (Production centers [102]: Hanoi 3, Saigon, 3, Vientene 3, Pnomh Penh 3, Bangkok 3, Haiphong 3, Da Nang 3, Cam Ranh 3, Si Racha 3, Can Tho 3, Kampong Cham 3, Sattahip 3, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 2, Chiang Mai 2, Kampot 2. Oil[2]: Paracel Islands 2. Nuclear power plants[1]: Vinh 1. Commerce[42]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 24x Shipping Units 36 [12,000,000 million tons], Satellite comunications Network 2. Tourism [5]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 2, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[0]: 0 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 25 points

Asian Space Program- 8 points

National Air Defense Warning System- 5 points

Civil Defence- 5 points

Electronics Industry- 5 points

2x Shipping unit- 6 point

Military:

12/24 AEW Research- 6 points

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Nuclear weapons production program- 6 points

1x 7.25/10 HQ unit- 7.25 points

Upgrade Ht-1 helicopters to Ht-3 helicopters- 18 points

1x C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units- 4 points

1x Elite pilots- 4 points

2x A4 Skyhawk light bomber units- 6 points

Upgrade C47 to Ht-80- 2 points

Maintenance:
4 Light infantry divisions 3 points,*
1 parachute brigade 1 point, [Hand picked]
1 HQ unit 1.5 points,*
5 marine light infantry brigades 3.75 points,*
4 marine mechanized infantry divisions 4 points,*
2 Mechanized flak groups 2 points,*
2 mechanized infantry division 2 points,*
1 Armoured Division 1 point,*
1 Mechanized Artillery group 1 point,*
-
4 Dassault Mirage III fighter unit 4 points,
1 C47 transport unit .25 points,
1 A4 Skyhawk light bomber unit .5 points,
8 Ht-1 Helicopter transport units 2 points
17 Elite pilots 6.5 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 points,
3 Light missile cruisers 1.5 points,
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points,
2 Coastal Patrol Groups .5 points,
2 Nuclear Attack submarines 1 point,
2 Amphibious Assault Group 1 point

TOTAL= 38.75
(*Denotes elite training)


Conditions for tech level 7.5 advance:
Red indicates in progress, Blue indicates completed

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Launched this year by the ASA)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Year 2 of 5)

USEA trading Partners :
(38 points woth of shipping units)

Korea- 5

China- 5

Pakistan- 5

Japan- 5

The Phillipines- 4

Burma- 4

UIR- 4

Australia- 4

Dispersed- 3




Set NPC builds:

Baghdad 1956 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 5
Economy: (Normal Spending) [3% growth - 1% World Oil Crisis = 2% growth]
Economic Budget [9]: (Production Centres [4]: Baghdad 2. Oil [1]: 1 oil resource. Commerce [4]: 2x national airline 4

Domestic Spending:
Level 3 social spending 1 point,

4/5 national airline 2 points (80% complete)

6/6 Infrastructe improvements 2 points (100% complete)

Aid to Arab League- 2 points

Military Spending:

Maintenance:
1 garrison unit. 25 points,
4 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point,
1 artillery unit .25 points
1 Mechanized infantry division .5 points

Total= 2 points



Basra 1956 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 4
Economy: (Normal spending) [3% growth]
Economic Budget [17]: (Oil [2]: 2x oil resource 2. Commerce [15]: 11x shipping 11, 2x national airline 4.

Domestic Spending:

Level 3 social spending 1 point,
1x national airline 5 points,
3x Shipping unit 9 points

Military Spending:

Maintenace:
1 garrison unit 1 point, [Elite Trained]
2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point [Highly Trained]

Total= 2 points.


Netherlands 1956 build
Population: 10 million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% Growth + 1 % EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget [49.5]: (Production Centres [17]:Rotterdam 4, Amsterdam 4, Arnheim 4, Groningen 4, Nimwegen 1. Commerce [23.5] 2 national airlines 4, 13 shipping units 19.5. Other [3]: 3 colonial points. Tourism [1]: Carribean colony 1. Growth [3]: 2x points of growth 3

Domestic Spending:
level 4 social spending 4 points,
11x Shipping units- 33 points
5 to UN World Bank


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
2 reserve garrison units .5 points,
2 mechanized divisions 1 point,
2 coastal patrol groups .5 points,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers each) .5 points
2 escort cruisers 1 point,
1 F100 fighter wing .5 points,
1 F86D all weather fighter wing .5 points,
2 elite pilots 2 points,

Total= 6.5

I have a question;

When will we be able to start Ethanol programs? I mean, when Brazil was ground to a halt due to gas shortages in the 70's, they started making Ethanol, and now 30 years later 40% of the gas sold is 100% Ethanol, and the rest of it is gas with at least 25% ethanol mixed in. That means Brazils economy barely needs any outside oil production (they need about 100 new plants, I think, to make it so that their own oil and ethanol production are enough to power their own country by itself, and about 50 or so plants are expected to be constructed by the end of the decade), and they don't produce as many emissions, two advantages. The only dis-advantages I see is the fact that it takes a few decades to get the program up and running (especially if you are pioneering the technology), certain types of ethanol are not as good as others (corn ethanol isn't as great as sugar ethanol, for example), and the fact that you don't get as good mileage. I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, though.

I have a question;

When will we be able to start Ethanol programs? I mean, when Brazil was ground to a halt due to gas shortages in the 70's, they started making Ethanol, and now 30 years later 40% of the gas sold is 100% Ethanol, and the rest of it is gas with at least 25% ethanol mixed in. That means Brazils economy barely needs any outside oil production (they need about 100 new plants, I think, to make it so that their own oil and ethanol production are enough to power their own country by itself, and about 50 or so plants are expected to be constructed by the end of the decade), and they don't produce as many emissions, two advantages. The only dis-advantages I see is the fact that it takes a few decades to get the program up and running (especially if you are pioneering the technology), certain types of ethanol are not as good as others (corn ethanol isn't as great as sugar ethanol, for example), and the fact that you don't get as good mileage. I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, though.

It will fall under the generic alternative fuels category. One problem at a time though.

It will fall under the generic alternative fuels category. One problem at a time though.

When will we be able to produce these "Generic Alternative Fuels"? I mean, since 7.5 is fast approaching, and we are in the middle of an oil-caused depression, I think interest in ethanol would be high.

I can handle it for now

OOC: Thanks, man. I appreciate it.

When will we be able to produce these "Generic Alternative Fuels"? I mean, since 7.5 is fast approaching, and we are in the middle of an oil-caused depression, I think interest in ethanol would be high.

yes it would... Brazil is in the unique position of being the worlds largest producer of suger cane which is why it has the amount of fuel production it does.

Nigerian Build, 1956

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Tech Level 6

Growth: 2%

Population: 35 million

Income

5 Industrial Centers (10 points)
19 Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)
Foriegn Aid from Australia (9 points)

55 points

Civil Spending

Level III Social Spending: 10 points

Production Center: 24 points

Debt to South Africa: 4 points

Level III Social Services for Benin: 1.5 points (Modern pop is 7 mill. It can't be that large.)

Level III Social Services for Niger: 3 points (Modern pop. is 11 mill. As of now it can't be more then 10 mill.)

Intelligence Agency: 4.5 points

Military Upkeep

3xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: 1.5 points
1xHighly Trained Light Infantry Division: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5 points
1xExpert Pilot: .25 points
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25 points
1xDestroyer Flotilla: .25 points
1xLight Missile Cruiser: .5 points

Military Spending

Purchase of one unit of BAC Lightings from the UK: 3 points

Total: 43.25 points spent.

yes it would... Brazil is in the unique position of being the worlds largest producer of suger cane which is why it has the amount of fuel production it does.

Lucky Brazil.

The Indian Sub-continent grows alot of sugar cane as well, though. Pakistan and India (along with Brazil and China) produce 50% of the worlds sugarcane. Therefore, I think Pakistan could produce a helluva lotta Ethanol if it wanted.

Not enough for you to fully industrialize. Your so big you'd still need oil and other fuel sources.

Also, do I have to pay points to access the oil points in the North Sea and if so how many?

He should be able to grow enough that it would reduce the strain of the oil crisis

He should be able to grow enough that it would reduce the strain of the oil crisis

The problem is, producing Ethanol isn't a short-term answer. It'll take at least 20 years before Ethanol is a substantial part of powering Pakistan (if I start in 1960), and 40 years before I can produce my max amounts of Ethanol.

Not enough for you to fully industrialize. Your so big you'd still need oil and other fuel sources.

Also, do I have to pay points to access the oil points in the North Sea and if so how many?

it will become available once tech level 7.5 is reached. Climate and cold are serious factors with North Sea drilling.

OOC: How many oil points will I have access to after throwing 20 points at Arabia, not to mention the fact that in the late 40s I spent about 20 points securing oil there too.

And is there any chance I found any more oil in Germany itself?

Aaand, GB, have you gotten any headway in figuring out the energy system?

Oh yeah, when you secure oil do you get the points? For example, if I got 9 oil points from Saudi Arabia would I get the oil production points, as well as the oil energy points or would I just get oil energy points and let Saudi Arabia keep the 9 oil production points?

Parthini']OOC: How many oil points will I have access to after throwing 20 points at Arabia, not to mention the fact that in the late 40s I spent about 20 points securing oil there too.

And is there any chance I found any more oil in Germany itself?

Aaand, GB, have you gotten any headway in figuring out the energy system?

Oh yeah, when you secure oil do you get the points? For example, if I got 9 oil points from Saudi Arabia would I get the oil production points, as well as the oil energy points or would I just get oil energy points and let Saudi Arabia keep the 9 oil production points?

no, busy weekend

1956 - FNS

46 Million Population

146 base + 100 points from International Trade + 5 from Nuke Plants= 251

5 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Bogota, Quito, Caracas)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 66.5p


6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
1 x E121 Aircraft = .5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

139 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (149pts) + 10pts in federal reserve

Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
24 points for MIRVs (2/3)
15 - Fleet Carrier (2 / 3 years)
6 Points to Joint Space Program with the US
4.5 points reperations for Native Indians in the FNS
12 points for Electronics Industry (3/5)
24 points for sixth Nuclear Power Plant
24 points for seventh Nuclear Power Plant
8.5 to world bank
19pts for Special Infantry Division ;) ;)
= 159


BTW
Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Soon... Soon...)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 5 soon 7)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1958)

More nuclear powerplants will be extended to: Georgetown, La Paz, Asuncion, Panama, and Cali.

1956... special infantry division.. muahahaha

I want a division trained in Marine attacks, airborne attacks, and mountain warfare. Bwahahaha.

1956... special infantry division.. muahahaha

I want a division trained in Marine attacks, airborne attacks, and mountain warfare. Bwahahaha.

which would be the maximum number of special forces type troops you can build

Oh I know :D

I want them all rolled up into one Division. They will be the South American Expeditionary Service

Bulgaria will progress with almost the same as before, yet updated to keep up with everyone else...

Still Market Economy, Peacetime, Constitutional Monarchy

Have finished the Airline and Social Spending requirements...Working on the Nuclear Station requirement and the Economic Productivity efficency requirement is very close to completion as well as getting Electricity requirement finished by 1960...

ooc: what happens to growth that occurs in excess to a population cap? More importantly, what are IC effects of growth that cant be used--would it make a recession worse?

Population:
17 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime Cutspending:
Growth = 5% (5+1-1) of 79.5 rounds is capped at no new Production Centers
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 34
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
24 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 40
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)
OLYMPICS IN MELBOURNE
5 point bonus

Budget for 1952: 34+4+40+1.5+5= 84.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
11.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
2 Patrol/Escort groups--.5 points
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--1.5 points
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Fighter Bomber--0.5 points
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
5 Gen. 3 jet fighters--5 points
22.5 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
Improved IRBM research--12 points (half finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--5 points
22 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in Domestic Electronics Agency (year 4)--5 points
Investment in East Timor Infastructure and Social Services--3 points
Secret: Set up of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--1.5 points
Secret: Foundation of AIA cells in Malyasia and Indonesia--1 point each (2 pts)
2 Merchant Marine Units--6 points
1 International Airline--6 points
1 Domestic Airline--5 points
28.5 Points Spent

11.5 + 22.5 + 22 + 28.5 = 84.5 Points Spent

Australian Commerce Breakdown
40 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 6; South Africa 5; China 4; Pakistan 3; USEA 2; Korea 2; Germany 2; FNS 2; Japan 2; Indonesia 1; Malyasia 1; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 3 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry (year 4 of 5)

Has anyone been doing the Kuwaiti or Yemeni builds (or is Yemen attached to Oman?)

Has anyone been doing the Kuwaiti or Yemeni builds (or is Yemen attached to Oman?)

no one has been handling Kuwait since they were posted in the previous economic thread. My assumption is that they are enjoying a very high social spending level and the best military they can afford for their size.

Yemen is essentially still a British possession at this point

ooc: what happens to growth that occurs in excess to a population cap? More importantly, what are IC effects of growth that cant be used--would it make a recession worse?

**bump**

hate to be pushy, but my limited knowledge of economics has me worried i may screw something up without realizing the IC repercussions.

Australia is at cut spending in a recession and has 5% growth (+1 for membership in the Commonwealth is negated by 1% from an oil shock). No matter what my growth is I can not add any industrial centers because of population limits. Would it be a worthwhile idea to increase government spending back to standard and accept the lost growth (that I wouldnt get anyway) to improve out of a recession? Like FDR magnifying the budget during the New Deal...

thanks

China's build for 1956...

--------------------------------

Income:

Domestic Income: 329 industry + 53 commerce (3 extra commerce from Communication Satellites) + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 405 points total.

China is currently under Government Cuts Mode (5% natural growth).

Cuts Mode: 329 points + 53 commerce + 3 oil + 20 tourism = 405 points total.

Other Income: 0 points.

--------------------------------

Expeditures:

National Expeditures:

60 points = military
5 points = Triad Intelligence Agency (China’s version of CIA)
146 points = Level III social services
6 points = Nuclear bomb production (12 bombs a year – stockpile of 48 nukes)

217 points = Total National Expeditures.

Unit Expeditures:

66 points for 11 units of Kirin Strategic Jet Bombers
22 points for 11 pilot units.
10 points for 1 HQ unit.

Domestic Expeditures:

3 points spent on Level 5 Bio-Chemical Weapons Research, Blood Agents. (Year 5 of 10… 15 / 30 points)

6 points spent on Tactical Nukes Research (Year 1 of 5… 6 / 30 points)

5 points for development of Electronics Industry (Year 4 of 5… 20 / 25 points)

6 points spent on Airborne Early Warning aircraft research (Year 1 of 4... 6 / 24 points)

48 points to construct two nuclear power plants.

Other Expeditures:

10 points to Colombia (60 / 80. Remaining debt: 20 points)

3 points to SCT’s Tai Kun Project.

11 points to SCT Space Program.

--------------------------------

Miscellanous:

5% growth. (5% from Government Cuts and 1% from SCT economic benefits and –1% from Economic Recession)
41 factories from natural growth.

--------------------------------

Start of 1957 economy:

370 industry
53 commerce points (maximum of 40 merchant points, 10 airline points, and 3 satellite points)
3 oil points
2 nuclear points
20 tourism income (maximum)

Total: 448 income points for 1957.

**bump**

hate to be pushy, but my limited knowledge of economics has me worried i may screw something up without realizing the IC repercussions.

Australia is at cut spending in a recession and has 5% growth (+1 for membership in the Commonwealth is negated by 1% from an oil shock). No matter what my growth is I can not add any industrial centers because of population limits. Would it be a worthwhile idea to increase government spending back to standard and accept the lost growth (that I wouldnt get anyway) to improve out of a recession? Like FDR magnifying the budget during the New Deal...

thanks

yes it would

incidently, I am sick today, I will post US and assorted NPC national budgets tomorrow

[SIZE="4"][ Unit Expeditures:

66 points for 11 units of Kirin Strategic Jet Bombers
22 points for 11 pilot units.
10 points for 1 HQ unit.

.

US, British and Australian military journals (ooc, think Aviation Week and Space Technology and Janes Defence Weekly) note with alarm the planned Chinese air force expansion.

ooc
by the way, you might want to spend some money on getting some more warheads... 1100 bombers need about 2200 nuclear bombs

Scandic Union
Build 1956
Population-21 million
50 prod centers-
Kiel 5, Copenhagen 5, Stockholm 5, Gothenburg 5, Karlskrona 5, Norrkoping 5, Oslo 5, Petrograd 5, Helsinki 4, Tallin 3, Murmansk 3
30 shipping units
4 airlines
1 Nuclear power plant-Northern Finland
126 points Prod centers(national effort), 45 points commerce, 8 points airlines, 2 points tourism-181 points+11 left from last year


47.5 points-maintainence
6 points-lv 3 social
2 points-Civil Defense
6 points-Nuke program(5/5)
5 points-intel agency
4 points-Lv 4 Chemical warfare(4/5)
5 points-electronic industry(4/5)
12 points- improved satelite technology
10 points-2 single manned orbital launches
24 points-MIRV's(48 left)
1 point-1 Large ICBM
1 point-1 Missile Silo
12 points-4 shipping
5 points-1 airline
8 points- Saudi Arabia
10 points-UIR
15 points-Turkey
15 points-rest of Turkic alliance
2.5 points-People of Petrograd


Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement-
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.(Done)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.(Soon)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.(Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.(Done)
6. Electronics Industry (1957)



Turkey
Population: 12 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Ankara 3, Smyrnia 2, Izmir 2, Konya 2, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 23 shipping units=56.5 points+15 points Scandic Aid
Spending: Level 3 social services 3.25 points,
4 Saab Drakens, 4 elite pilots, coast guard with 20 corvettes, 6 light infantry divisions (highly trained), 2 mech divisions.(Highly trained)-10.75

Purchase:57.5
2 Saab Lansens-4 points
2 Elite pilots-8 points
12 points-4 shipping
15 points-3 airlines
5 points-1 armored division
24 points-production center
10 points-HQ
1.5 left



Central Asian Republic
Population: 8 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Tashkent 4, Alma Ata 3, 1 national airline, 3 international airline, 1 aiport(Tashkent)=24 points+4 Scandic points
Spending: level 4 social spending 3 points, 4 infantry corps, 3 pilots, 2 IL10, 1 garrison unit, 1 Saab Lansen 3 points, Intelligence service 5

Buy:
11 points-Prod center(Done)
6 points-international airline

Azerbaijan
Population: 2 million
Tech level: 6
Income: 4 oil points, plus 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 shipping=12 points+4 Scandic points
Spending: level 5 social spending 1 point, 1 MiG 19, 1 pilot, 2 flak units, 1 garrison unit, 2 infantry corps (well trained) 6 points.
Build:
9 points-prod center(15 left)


Kashgaria
Population: 5 million
Tech level: 6
Income (Regular Spending): Urumchi 1 , Kashgar 1, 1 national airline, 1 international airline=7 points+8 Scandic points
Spending: level 4 social spending 2 points, 4 garrison units 1 point.

Buy:
12 points-prod center(Done)


Ukrainian Budget 1956
Population: 37 million
Tech level: 7
1 Nuclear power plant(SU Built)-Kiev
Income (Normal): (35 prod centers)Stalino 6, Dneipopetrovsk 6, Kiev 6, Odessa 6, Kharkov 6, Sevastpool 5, 30 shipping units, 1 national airline, 2 international airline, 1 air terminal(Kiev)=123
Level 3 social spending: 11 points
Military Maintenance: 30.25 points (1 HQ, 2 elite infantry corps, 4 garrisons, 2 mech flak divisions, 6 elite armored divisions, 4 elite mech divisions 7 Saab Draken, 2 Saab Lansen, S1 Tracer, 10 expert pilot, 10 destroyers, 40 corvettes).

Spending:84.75 points to spend
5 points-1 national airline
6 points-1 international airline
12 points-3 air terminals
5 points-electronics industry
48 points-2 prod centers
9 points-Nuclear power plant(15 left)





Polish Budget 1956
Population: 45 million
Tech Level 7
Nuclear Power Plant(SU built)-Lodz
Production centers: (50 prod centers)Warsaw 7, Lodz 7, Krakow 6, Katowice 6, Brest-Litovsk 6, Lvov 6, Riga 6, Lublin 6,
30 shipping points, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, 3 air terminals(Warsaw, Lodz)=155+4.25
Level III social services: 13.5 points.
Military Maintenance: 36.5 points (1 HQ, 5 elite armored corps, 5 elite infantry corps, 6 elite mech divisions, 8 flak units, 7 Saab Draken, 4 Saab Lansen, 2 Tu16, 1 KC135, 14 elite pilots).

Spending: 109.25

4.5 points-Civil Defense
5 points- 1 national airline
12 points-2 international airlines
5 points-electronics industry
24 points-nuclear power plant
4 points-air terminal
48 points-2 prod centers
7 points-Prod Center(17 left)

US, British and Australian military journals (ooc, think Aviation Week and Space Technology and Janes Defence Weekly) note with alarm the planned Chinese air force expansion.

ooc
by the way, you might want to spend some money on getting some more warheads... 1100 bombers need about 2200 nuclear bombs

OOC:

China is building these bombers mostly to handle conventional bombing, given that the strategic bombers are the heaviest and B-52 equalivent for China. Only a few will actually handle nuclear weapons.

OOC: OK, what is this stuff about how Scandinavia and China are going to get 7.5 a year earlier than the US and UK? That's impossible...

Plus what's this nonsense about aid to Saudi Arabia? It better be economic...

We also need to discuss the future of Kiel.

Parthini']OOC: OK, what is this stuff about how Scandinavia and China are going to get 7.5 a year earlier than the US and UK? That's impossible...

Plus what's this nonsense about aid to Saudi Arabia? It better be economic...

We also need to discuss the future of Kiel.

The earliest anyone can reach tech level 7.5 is 1958.

It so happens that China started its electronics industry earlier than most people (I started it in 1952 or 1953, can't remember).

The only 2 conditions that China won't be able to meet is the 75% economic potential and 10 years of Level III social spending. These will probably be met by the 1960's for advancement to Tech level 8.

OOC:

China is building these bombers mostly to handle conventional bombing, given that the strategic bombers are the heaviest and B-52 equalivent for China. Only a few will actually handle nuclear weapons.

ooc: the question of course is why on gods green earth do you need that many offensive weapons...

ooc: the question of course is why on gods green earth do you need that many offensive weapons...

One word.

Deterrance.

Besides, China is determined not to be weak again, a lesson hard learned from the 1920's through early 1940's (WW-3).

Population:
17 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime:
Growth = 5% (5+1-1) of 79.5 rounds is capped at no new Production Centers
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 68
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
24 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 40
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)
OLYMPICS IN MELBOURNE
5 point bonus

Budget for 1952: 68+4+40+1.5+5= 118.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
11.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
2 Patrol/Escort groups--.5 points
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--1.5 points
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Fighter Bomber--0.5 points
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
5 Gen. 3 jet fighters--5 points
22.5 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
ICBM research--24 points (half finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--5 points
34 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in Domestic Electronics Agency (year 4)--5 points
Investment in East Timor Infastructure and Social Services--5 points
Secret: Set up of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--2 points
Secret: Foundation of AIA cells in Malyasia and Indonesia--3 point each (6 pts)
2 Merchant Marine Units--6 points
1 International Airline--6 points
1 Domestic Airline--5 points
35 Points Spent

International Expenditures
Aid to Nigeria--9 points
Encouragement of Brazilian Immigration--3 points
Reserve (world bank if not used)--3.5
15.5 points spent

11.5 + 22.5 + 34 + 35 + 15.5 = 118.5 Points Spent

Australian Commerce Breakdown
40 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 6; South Africa 5; China 4; Pakistan 3; USEA 2; Korea 2; Germany 2; FNS 2; Japan 2; Indonesia 1; Malyasia 1; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 3 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry (year 4 of 5)

One word.

Deterrance.

Besides, China is determined not to be weak again, a lesson hard learned from the 1920's through early 1940's (WW-3).

hrmmm...

might i suggest that in about 20 minutes (after i have had the chance to update my thread) you put a friendly response of some sort from the Chinese people to lessen Australian concerns?

If I had the population to even think about supporting it, this would trigger an arms race. As it is I fear that if i switched every unit over to fighters I still couldnt match that build with my total military...

I'll post my builds later today, as I finally have some time for NS stuff. I'll do my NPCs as well, and I reckon I could stretch to posting the Yemen, Oman and Western Arbaia builds as well, if someone could inform me of how many oil points and production centres they have. I'll also sort out both Cyprus nations which are newly independent and I have the economic data for.

Japan Build 1956


Population: 90 million
Production Centers: 93
Shiiping & Air: 40
Tourism: 8
Growth: 7% (with communications I think)
Total: 141

Lvl. 4 Social Safety net: 40

Maintenance total: 33

4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
4 Elite Light Infantry
2 Elite Pilots
2 Expert Pilots
Intelligence Agency
6 Garrison Units
10 Elite Flak Groups
2 HQ
3 Frigate Flotillas
5 Mirage III
2 Corvette Units

Points Left: 68

Build
Electronics Industry (5th year): 5
5 Elite Pilots (2nd year): 20
Nuclear Fueling (from SCT): 24
Destroyer Squadron: 5

Aid:
2 shipping units +5 points of aid to Phillipines
5 points of aid to Burma
4 points to ASP

Requirments Met/meeting:

1. Lvl. 3 Social Safety net for 10 years
2. Electronics Industry (5th year)
3. Has the ability to make nuclear power plants (with the SCT?)
4. Has an airline and tourist industry
5. Created a communications satellite network (with SCT)

Population:
17 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime:
Growth = 5% (5+1-1) of 79.5 rounds is capped at no new Production Centers
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 68
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
24 Merchant Marines; 1 National Airline; 1 International Airline = 40
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)
OLYMPICS IN MELBOURNE
5 point bonus

Budget for 1952: 68+4+40+1.5+5= 118.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
11.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
2 Patrol/Escort groups--.5 points
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--1.5 points
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Fighter Bomber--0.5 points
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
5 Gen. 3 jet fighters--5 points
22.5 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
2 F4C Phantom Fighter Wings--6 points
ICBM research--24 points (half finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--5 points
US Base construction at Darwin--.5 points
40.5 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in Domestic Electronics Agency (year 4)--5 points
Investment in East Timor Infastructure and Social Services--4 points
Secret: Set up of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--2 points
Secret: Foundation of AIA cells in Malyasia and Indonesia--2 point each (4 pts)
2 Merchant Marine Units--6 points
1 International Airline--6 points
1 Domestic Airline--5 points
32 Points Spent

International Expenditures
Aid to Nigeria--9 points
Encouragement of Brazilian Immigration--3 points
12 points spent

11.5 + 22.5 + 40.5 + 32 + 12 = 118.5 Points Spent

Australian Commerce Breakdown
40 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 6; South Africa 5; China 4; Pakistan 3; USEA 2; Korea 2; Germany 2; FNS 2; Japan 2; Indonesia 1; Malyasia 1; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 3 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry (year 4 of 5)

US Budget 1956
Population 170 million tech level 7
Production centers 340 (maximum potential 340)
Shipping units 25
Oil 23
Nuclear 12
Colonial 5
Tourist income 15
Airlines 4 (international and national)

Trading Partners: Canada 4, Mexico 4, UK 3, Japan 3, Russia 3, Central America, Caribbean and Iceland 3, FNS 4, China 3, Africa 3, East Asia 3, Europe 4, USAE 1, Australasia 2

Income
680 domestic + 40 commerce +2 commerce (communications satellite bonus) + 23 oil + 12 Nuclear + 5 colonial + 17 tourism = 779 points

Military budget 255 points
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10836356&postcount=757
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10838613&postcount=759
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10840148&postcount=760

Level 4 social services (all US including colonial territories) 90 points
Civil Defense 25 points
Intelligence Agency maintenance 5 points
Nuclear energy program 6 points
Communications satellite network maintenance 30 points (covers US, Canada, Australasia, FNS, and South Africa)
Spy satellite maintenance 6 points
Early Warning satellite maintenance 6 points

Military and Civilian research
Solid Rocket Technology (12 points, year 2 of 4)
2nd Generation Titan missile research (Titan II) 12 points
Improved communications satellite technology 6 points (year 2 of 2)
Improved space plane (X15C) orbital flight technology 6 points (year 5 of 6)
Manned Space Flight (Gemini) (12 points) (Year 2 of 2)
Nuclear weapons research 12 points (ongoing improvements, most US testing now underground)

Military builds
1 Kitty Hawk class carrier battlegroup (year 3 of 3) 5 points (Harry Truman)
2 SSNs (Sculpin, Shark) 10 points
Chemical weapons production (very very covert) 6 points (sufficient for 1 batch of types 1 – 6 chemical warfare agents, placed in storage at Yuma Proving Ground, Arizona)
3 KC135 tanker units 9 points
4 F4C fighter units 12 points
5 Titan I missile units
5 fortifications (silos for those missiles)(Luke AFB)
Nuclear Heavy carrier project (USS Enterprise) 8 points (year 1 of 4)

Foreign Aid and Domestic Programs
Alaskan highway 10 points
French Foreign Legion subsidy 2 points
electronics industry research (DARPA projects of various types)(year 4 of 5) 5 points
Joint US / Brazilian research into alternative fuels 6 points
Nuclear powerplant construction aid to Russia 69 points
US aid to World Bank 10 points
US aid to UN refugee programs 10 points

Space Launches
Unmanned Science satellite missions 15 points (15 missions)
Manned flights to resume next year

Misc spending
111 points available as reserve, what isn’t spent is used to pay down National Debt (ooc no game effect, I just have more money then I need)
plus some points from FNS, Canada, Australasia and South Africa to defray costs of their satellite networks

very very secret
25 points to CIA (out of the reserve) for special projects underway

111 points available as reserve, what isn’t spent is used to pay down National Debt (ooc no game effect, I just have more money then I need)

I wish I had that much floating around!

I am working on UK and my NPC builds and should hopefully have them up by later today.

British Builds 1955
Standard market economy, 3% growth, plus 1% for EEC/Commonwealth, minus 2% for recession.

Production Centres:

UK: 104 as follows: 16 London, 14 Birmingham, 10 Coventry, 8 Manchester, 6 Hull, 6 Liverpool, 6 Glasgow, 6 Newcastle, 6 Sheffield, 6 Edinburgh, 6 Bristol, 6 Leeds, 3 Derby, 3 Nottingham,

Colonial: 37 as follows: 8 Kenya, 5 Tanzania, 4 Carribean, 2 Ceylon, 3 Uganda, 3 Rwanda, 2 Congo, 2 Gabon, 1 Equatorial Guinea, 2 Cameroon, 2 Central African Republic, 2 Chad,

TOTAL: 141 production centres

INCOME
Production Centres: 282 points
Trade: 50 points (40 from merchant marine (35 units of shipping, 10 liners), 10 from airlines (1 domestic, 4 foreign)), 3 from communications satellites
UK tourism: 5 points (London airports: Gatwick, Heathrow, Stanstead; Birmingham airport; Dover cruise terminal)
Imperial tourism: 5 points (Kenya airport and cruise terminal; British Caribbean airport and cruise terminal; Tanzania airport)
From German Nuclear Research: 6 points
From German government for ESA program: 24 points
From French government for ESA program: 10 points
Nuclear Points: 3 (Windscale, Cumbria; Hunterston, North Ayrshire; Sizewell, Suffolk).

TOTAL: 388

growth yields 8 new production facilities for next year.

EXPENDITURE
Routine Expenditure:
military maintenance: 70
level 4 social services for UK (52m): 26
level 4 social services for Empire (70m): 35
Military Intelligence Service Maintenance: 5
6 points for nuclear weapons program (maintenance for production)
6 points for super nuclear weapons research (year 1 of 10)
24 points to start MIRV missile program (24/72 complete)
12 points for space research (Heavy lift rockets) (12/24 complete)
UK Civil Defence 5 points
UK National Air Defence RADAR network 5 points
35 points to maintain missiles (150 ICBMs, 100 large ICBMs, 240 IRBMs)
12 points for improved spy satellite research.
12 points for Improved Communications satellite research
12 points to research 2nd generation missiles.
Upgrade all British missiles to 2nd generation, will come into effect at start of next year (6/17 points)

Extraordinary Expenditure:
5 points for tech 7.5 electronics research (year 4/5)
Manned Gemini space launches 3 attempts = 15 points
15 points for 5 Blackburn Buccaneer Carrier Aircraft

Royal Navy modernisation Program
2 Nuclear Powered heavy carrier groups, 2 years build time remains
3 Nuclear Powered fleet carrier groups, jet capable, 2 years build time remains
12 Nuclear Powered Cruisers, 4 heavy missile, 4 light missile, 4 AA, (total cost 200 points, 80 spent so far, all started at the same time and so none will be finished until entire points cost paid).

UK Satellite Agency Program (UKSAP, For UK useage only)

Early Warning Satellite Network 6 points
Communications Satellite Network 6 points
Spy Satellite Network 6 points

UK Atomic Energy Authority
2 nuclear power stations - 48 points. (Trawsfynydd, Gwynedd, Wales; Chapelcross, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland)


Total: 388

Gambia
Pop: 300,000
Tech: 6
Income: 1 resource point (peanuts and fishing), 3 points from 3 shipping units,
Spending: level 4 social .25 points; .25 point to maintain an infantry division, 1 point to finish a shipping unit, 2.5 points to start another.
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to other African nations, 1 RoW.

Togo
Pop: 1.4 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Lomé, 1 resource point (Cocoa), 4 points from 4 shipping units
Spending: 0.75 points for level 4 social services, 0.5 points to maintain 2 infantry divisions. .5 points to finish 40 missile boats for coastal patrols (bought from UK shipyards) (3/3), 2 points for a pilot, 2.25 points towards a unit of BAC lightnings (2.25/3).
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa, 2 RoW

Ghana
Pop: 5.8 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Accra. 2 resource points (Gold, Timber and Cocoa), 2 points from 2 shipping units
Spending: level 4 social services 3 points, .5 points to maintain infantry division and garrison, .1.75 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), .25 points to start another (.25/3)
Growth: 0
Shipping: 1 to UK, 1 to Africa

Senegal
Pop: 2.9 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Dakar, 9 from 9 shipping units,
Spending: 1.5 points for level 4 social services, 0.25 points to maintain an infantry division. .25 to maintain missile boats, 3 points to France in loan repayments (year 2 out of 15), .25 points for a pilot unit (2/2). 3 points for 1 unit of BAC lightnigs, 2.75 to start a shipping unit (2.75/3).
Shipping: 2 to UK, 3 to France, 2 to Africa, 2 to RoW.

Sierra Leone
Pop: 2.0 million
Tech: 6
Income: 1 production centre at Freetown, 1 point from one shipping unit.
Spending: Level 4 services 1 points, .25 points to maintain one infantry division. .5 points to finish a shipping unit (3/3), 1.25 points towards a shipping unit (1.25/3)

Northern Cyprus
Pop: 100,000
Tech: 6
Income 1 resource point (fishing)
Spending: 0 (actually 0.05, but negligible) points for level 4 social services, 1 point towards a mountain infantry brigade (1/2)

Southern Cyprus
Pop: 430,000
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at Nicosia
Spending: 0.25 points on level 4 social services, 2 points for a mountain brigade, 1.75 points towards a shipping unit (1.75/3)

Yemen
Pop: 4.6 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres at San’a, 2 shipping units
Spending: 2.5 points on level 4 social services, .5 points to maintain 2 infantry divisions, 3 points for a shipping unit.
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW

Kuwait
Pop: 200,000
Tech: 6
Income: 4 oil points, 2 shipping units
Spending: 0.5 points on level 5 social services, .25 points to maintain 1 marine brigade, 3 points for a shipping unit, 2.25 points to start another (2.25/3).
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW

Oman (and Western Arabia, UAE)
Pop: 2.2 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres, 2 shipping units, 8 oil points
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, .5 points to maintain 2 infantry divisions,
1 point to maintain 2 missile boat units, a destroyer squadron and a frigate flotilla; 3 points for 1 shipping units, 2 points for a pilot, 3 points for a BAC lightning unit. 2 points towards a light missile cruiser (2/9)
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW

--------------------------------

I have guessed for much of the above, especially Kuwait and Oman, I am unsure specifically of their oil points so if anyone has any ideas then please let me know.

Kuwait
Pop: 200,000
Tech: 6
Income: 4 oil points, 2 shipping units
Spending: 0.5 points on level 5 social services, .25 points to maintain 1 marine brigade, 3 points for a shipping unit, 2.25 points to start another (2.25/3).
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW

Oman (and Western Arabia, UAE)
Pop: 2.2 million
Tech: 6
Income: 2 production centres, 2 shipping units, 8 oil points
Spending: 2.5 points on level 5 social services, .5 points to maintain 2 infantry divisions,
1 point to maintain 2 missile boat units, a destroyer squadron and a frigate flotilla; 3 points for 1 shipping units, 2 points for a pilot, 3 points for a BAC lightning unit. 2 points towards a light missile cruiser (2/9)
Shipping: 1 to Arabia and East Africa, 1 RoW

--------------------------------

I have guessed for much of the above, especially Kuwait and Oman, I am unsure specifically of their oil points so if anyone has any ideas then please let me know.

that looks good

Cheers GB, I just made some guesses at the approximate number of oil points from looking at other countries and reading a little of the history of oil extraction in these areas.

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available:58 -65% productivity-

Commerce:
1 national airline, 1 international airline, 21 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 10, Nantes 7, Lille 6, Marseilles 8, Toulouse 6, Rouen 6, Vichy 7, Lyon 6

Tech Level: 7

Income:
Production Centeres: 58*2 = 116 points

Commerce:Total= 38.5 points
Shipping= 33 points
Ocean Liner=1.5 points
National Airline= 2 points
International Airline= 2 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Investment Returns:
Ends 1968:
Northwest Africa (Mali, Senegal and Guinea): 12 points
Ends 1969:
(Burkina Faso, Ghana, Senegal): 12 points

Total= 192.5 Points

Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 23.25 points
Inteligance Budget= 5.75 points
ESA Research= 10 points
Investment in Electronics Industry= 5 (Year 3/5)
Construction of 1 shipping unit= 3 points
3 International Airlines= 18 points
2 National Airlines= 10 points

Nuclear Reactor in Chinon: 24 points

Millitary Purchases

Forign Investment:
African Electrification: 3 (year Two)
Aid to Senegal and Guinea: 10 points
Aid to Belgian Congo: 14 points

Yugoslavian Millitary Maintenance: 3 points
Yugoslavian Militray Program: 10 points <if accepted>

Albanian Millitary Maintenance: 1.5 points
Albanian Millitary Program: 8 points <If accepted>








Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. <Done>
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years. <probably till 1957>
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. <Soon I gather>
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. <Yes>
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. <Yes>
6. Electronics Industry <Year 3>

Pakistan, 1957 Build, Tech Level 7
Spending Type: Market Economy National Effort (Final Year), Growth: 1% (normally 1%, but extra 1% from SCT would make it 2%, but the oil-crisis has hit Pakistan, so that's another -1%, since Pakistan still has oil).

47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 126 from production centers (42 production centers: 7 Agra, 2 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 2 Peshawar [2 in Calcutta from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 193 points


Population: 400 million people

Maintenance:
x4 Garrison 2 (Highly Trained)
x1 Mechanized .75 (Highly Trained)
x14 Pilots 3.5 (Expert)
x4 C47 1
x2 MiG21 2 (To be discontinued next year)
x8 P2V Neptune 2
x1 Light Ship unit .25
x1 HQ Units 1.25 (Highly Trained)
x25 Light Infantry 12.5 (Highly Trained)
x17 Armored 12.75 (Highly Trained)
x3 Infantry 1.5 (Highly Trained)
x2 Parachute Divisions 1 point (Highly Trained)
x4 Improved MRBMs 4 points
x9 Mustard Gas "batches" 0
x1 Intelligence Agency 5 points
Total Spent: 50

Total Remaining: 143 points

Social Services:
Level II Social Services for everyone (80 points)

Total Spent: 130

Total Remaining: 63 points

Construction:
x1 Production Center (Agra) 24 points
x1 Nuclear Program (Year 1/3) 24 points
x1 Home-grown electronics industry (Year 3) 5 points
Total Spent: 183

Total Remaining: 10

Military Purchases:
x2 Hal Marut Jet Fighters 6 points
x1 Foreign Legion Division (Elite Trained Light Infantry)

Total Spent:189

Total Remaining: 4

Aid to other nations:
SCT: 3

Total Spent: 193

Total Remaining: 0

Predicted 1958 Budget (Note: Taking into the end of National Effort):
47 Commerce(30 merchant marine, 1 national airline, 1 international airline, and an extra 2 points from satellites) + 90 from production centers (45 production centers: 8 Agra, 2 Hyderabad, 4 Mumbai, 4 Calcutta, 4 Madras, 5 Dhaka, 4 Delhi, 5 Karachi, 5 Lahore, 4 Peshawar [2 in Peshawar from growth]), + 20 from Tourism = 157 points

Progress Towards Tech Level 7.5:
Blue indicates already achieved, Red indicates in progress
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Year 1/3)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 Years Building a home-grown electronics industry. (Year 3/5)

Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Each energy point provides sufficient energy to fuel 20 points of production (not production centers, but actual production). Any energy source can fuel domestic production.

Commerce and Military forces can only be supported by oil points and each oil point provides 20 points of fuel (as above). Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, while commerce requires 1 point of fuel for each point of commerce.
So 2 oil points would support 40 points of commerce for example.

Energy point information will be provided this weekend. Please TG me and tell me exactly how many nuclear points you have (1 point for each 24 point nuclear power plant purchased to date as of 1956).

Importing energy-- you can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/population_density_0.html
if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is between 101 and 200, your pollution index is -1%
if your nation is between 201 and 301, your pollution index is -2%
anything higher is -3%

if your nation consists of more then one of the nations on that list, use the figure for the nation with the largest land area (see CIA factbook if you don’t know what your land area is)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

For every 300 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Example, the US has 680 points of domestic production (-2%), population density of 29 (no effect), and uses 100 points of coal (-1%), and 100 points of hydroelectric (no effect).
Pollution effects therefore reduce US growth by -3%. Total US growth however is 4%, so it retains a 1% growth rate.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 450 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 300 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0, and from -2 to -1, and -3 to -2 (use same chart). This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors or those downwind (just like nuclear fallout). After 10 years, a nation with negative growth because of pollution will start suffering population losses (just like nuclear fallout).

OOC: This is gonna be a bitch... Do you want us to continue the growth as normal now, though?

IC:

German Build 1957
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 130, 2 oil points, 4 Nuclear Power, 8 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 8 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 8 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 4 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 3 Stuttgart, 7 Munich, 4 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 3 Karlsbad, 4 Stettin, 4 Danzig, 4 Konigsburg, 3 Breslau, 4 Posen

Regular Spending: 260 Industry+2 oil+4 Nuke Power+53 Commerce+8 tourist=324 points

Maintenance (118):
33 Highly Trained Garrisons-16.5
40 Elite Pilots-20
5 Regular Pilots-Free
6 Elite Mechanized Inf-6
6 Elite Armored-6
1 Special Forces Alpine-1
6 Special Forces Paratrooper-6
8 Elite Mech Flak-8
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

3 HQ-3

6 Arado Ar 232-3 points
6 Do 337-3
18 TA200-9 points
11 BAC Lightning-11
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

3 Attack Submarine-1.5

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (44):
Level 4 for 88 Million-44 points

Civilian Builds (147):

Electronics Industry Research-5 points (Year 5/5)

Tourist Airport (Konigsburg)-4 points

2 Nuclear Power Plants-48 points

Space Plane Research-12 points (Year 2/4)

Spy Satellite Network-6 points

Communications Satellite Network-6 points
Communications Satellite Research-12 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-20 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

4% growth-13 factories

5 points for Arabian Oil
12 points to Arab League
10 points to Kurdistan

Military Builds (4)

2 Special Forces Parachute-4 points

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1958
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 139, 2 oil points, 6 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 9 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 4 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

Energy Rules
Go into effect beginning 1960

Each nation has a certain number of energy points that it produces domestically. Each energy point provides sufficient energy to fuel 20 points of production (not production centers, but actual production). Any energy source can fuel domestic production.

Commerce and Military forces can only be supported by oil points and each oil point provides 20 points of fuel (as above). Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, while commerce requires 1 point of fuel for each point of commerce.
So 2 oil points would support 40 points of commerce for example.

Energy point information will be provided this weekend. Please TG me and tell me exactly how many nuclear points you have (1 point for each 24 point nuclear power plant purchased to date as of 1956).

Importing energy-- you can purchase oil, coal and natural gas from nations that have excess points to their needs. For now, to save headaches, its assumed that 1 point will buy you 1 oil or 2 coal or natural gas points. However, the price will go up occasionally and fall occasionally depending on the state of the world and demand.

Pollution Rules
Pollution acts as a brake on the economy. Eventually it also starts acting as a brake on your neighbor’s economy and can act as a brake on your population.

The main offenders are hydroelectric power (not so much for pollution but for other negative environmental effects), coal, population size, and domestic industrial production. Catastrophic events like nuclear meltdowns and nuclear attacks are problems as well.

Population density pollution
See this chart
http://www.photius.com/wfb1999/rankings/population_density_0.html
if your nation is at 100 or less you have no population pollution
if your nation is between 101 and 200, your pollution index is -1%
if your nation is between 201 and 301, your pollution index is -2%
anything higher is -3%

if your nation consists of more then one of the nations on that list, use the figure for the nation with the largest land area (see CIA factbook if you don’t know what your land area is)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

For every 300 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

Example, the US has 680 points of domestic production (-2%), population density of 29 (no effect), and uses 100 points of coal (-1%), and 100 points of hydroelectric (no effect).
Pollution effects therefore reduce US growth by -3%. Total US growth however is 4%, so it retains a 1% growth rate.

Reducing pollution is possible beginning at tech level 7.5. Special research (pollution control measures) costs 72 points and only 12 points a year can be spent. Once completed, for every 450 points of domestic production, add another -1% (replacing the 300 point figure). In addition, this research allows you to change the population density figure from -1% to 0, and from -2 to -1, and -3 to -2 (use same chart). This research can also be shared amongst allies (so that all benefit).

Coal and Hydroelectric pollution measures are not available until tech level 8.

Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors or those downwind (just like nuclear fallout). After 10 years, a nation with negative growth because of pollution will start suffering population losses (just like nuclear fallout).

I'd like to comment on several things regarding this.

First, the population matrix data in the link you provided was for RL population figures in 1999, roughly 40+ years ahead of where we are right now in E20. For instance, in this matrix, China has a density of around 133, but thats with a 1.2 billion populace (as of 1999). By 1960 in E20, China will probably have around 600 million (half of RL today's population), so the "matrix index" for China should be cut in half to somewhere around 65'ish or so. This should hold true for any E20 nation- use their 1960's populace (tweaks to account for early industralization thus lower overall population) instead of the population figures in the 1999 density matrix.

Second, I'm confused about the military and commerce with oil stuff. 1 oil point can supply 20 merchant shipping units, right? What about air based commerce? Tourism? Satellite bonuses?

Third, I don't know how many coal, hydro, etc. points that China has. I'm assuming China has some coal power as Manchuria has a lot of coal, and China has built some hydro power, considering I've been making "noises" about it since the 1920's (over 6 months ago RL). China has 2 nuclear power points right now (1056) and plans on building more in the next several years. In addition, I'm not sure how many extra oil points China could have gained (expanding oil wells and offshore drilling and stuff like that)?

See why this might cause some players heads to explode when trying to figure all this out on top of the already considerable economic stuff like oil / nuclear points, space capabilities, electricity, natural growth, social spending, etc. But I do see good reasons and the plausibility and necessity of this pollution stuff. Its just that it needs some major tweaking to make it easily understood and follow-able by just about anyone, from economic geniuses to 15 year old high school kids.

See why this might cause some players heads to explode when trying to figure all this out on top of the already considerable economic stuff like oil / nuclear points, space capabilities, electricity, natural growth, social spending, etc. But I do see good reasons and the plausibility and necessity of this pollution stuff. Its just that it needs some major tweaking to make it easily understood and follow-able by just about anyone, from economic geniuses to 15 year old high school kids.

14 here!

:D

14 here!

:D

That explains so much...

that's not very nice. I also do not know how much Japan has of everything

I'd like to comment on several things regarding this.

First, the population matrix data in the link you provided was for RL population figures in 1999, roughly 40+ years ahead of where we are right now in E20. For instance, in this matrix, China has a density of around 133, but thats with a 1.2 billion populace (as of 1999). By 1960 in E20, China will probably have around 600 million (half of RL today's population), so the "matrix index" for China should be cut in half to somewhere around 65'ish or so. This should hold true for any E20 nation- use their 1960's populace (tweaks to account for early industralization thus lower overall population) instead of the population figures in the 1999 density matrix.

I agree with China that the scale isn't a good one. For example, China has one of the lower scores, however, take a look at the coast of China. It is grotesquely more densely populated than Europe, yet I have to pay a much higher toll. The system is too broad, especially considering all of the growth will be happening in places where it is densely populated.

Also, when will Wind Energy begin to have an impact. Apparently, Germany has the highest solar and wind energy capacity in Europe.

My comp decided to take a shit and i wasnt able to do anybuilds....This is going to be for 3 weeks, 55, 56,and 57. I got an intell agency in 55 so if there was anything brazil found out........anything please.......... you know LR.

Brazil's 1955 Build:

Population: 60 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 6, Rio de Janeiro 5, Salvador 4, Belo Horizonte 3, Fortaleza 3, Curitiba 2, Manaus 1, Recife 1, Santos 1 = 26 Factories
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 3 national, 1 large airport = 10 points
Shipping: 27 shipping units = 40 point cap
Tourism:
Air Terminals: 3 (Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Salvador) = 3 points
Cruise Terminals: 3 (Belem, Fortaleza, Santos) = 3 points

3% Growth (due to regular spending)
1% Growth (due to Pan American Treaty)
-2% Growth (due to depression)

2% Total Growth – 2 Factories – Porto Alegre 1, Natal 1

Total Production:
52 industry + 10 airline + 40 shipping + 6 tourism = 108 points (due to regular spending)

Maintenance:
Army:
4 Highly Trained Garrisons - 2 points
5 Regular Pilots - Free
2 Highly Trained Infantry Division - 1 point
Air Force:
Navy:
1 Costal Patrol Group - .25 points

Level III Social Spending – 18 points
Total Military – 3.25 points
Foreign Aid – none

Total Military Maintenance, Foreign Aid, and Social Spending – 21.25 points

Points left for builds – 86.75 points

Builds:

Domestic:
Improved Transportation Infrastructure - 11 points - (year 3 of 3) – Finished
Electronics Industry – 5 points (year 1 of 5)
Alternate Energy Research (leads to ethanol) 1st year of research – 12 points
Ecological Restoration - .75 points
Creation of BIA (Brazilian Intelligence Agency) – 10 points
1 Factory (Santos) – 12 points (12 of 24 points)

Military:
3 Costal Patrol Groups – 9 points
2 Heavy Cruisers – 6 of 16 points (3 points to each) (year 1 of 3)
4 Destroyer Squadrons – 20 points
1 Infantry Division – 1 point



Brazil's 1956 Build:

Population: 60 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 6, Rio de Janeiro 5, Salvador 4, Belo Horizonte 3, Fortaleza 3, Curitiba 2, Manaus 1, Recife 1, Santos 1, Porto Alegre 1, Natal 1 = 28 Factories
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 3 national, 1 large airport = 10 points
Shipping: 27 shipping units = 40 point cap
Tourism:
Air Terminals: 3 (Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Salvador) = 3 points
Cruise Terminals: 3 (Belem, Fortaleza, Santos) = 3 points

3% Growth (due to regular spending)
1% Growth (due to Pan American Treaty)
-2% Growth (due to depression)

2% Total Growth – 2 Factories – Sao Paulo 1, Natal 1

Total Production:
56 industry + 10 airline + 40 shipping + 6 tourism = 112 points (due to regular spending)

Maintenance:
Intelligence Agency: BIA – 5 points
Army:
4 Highly Trained Garrisons - 2 points
3 Highly Trained Infantry Division – 1.5 points
Air Force:
5 Regular Pilots - Free
Navy:
4 Costal Patrol Groups (160 boats) - 1 point
4 Destroyer Squadrons (20 ships) – 1 point


Level III Social Spending – 18 points
Intelligence Agency – 5 points
Total Military – 5.5 points
Foreign Aid - none
Total Military Maintenance, Foreign Aid, Intelligence Agency and Social Spending – 28.5 points

Points left for builds – 83.5 points

Builds:

Domestic:
1 Factory (Santos) – 12 points (24 of 24 points)
1 Factory Salvador – 24 points
Electronics Industry – 5 points (year 2 of 5)
Alternate Energy Research (leads to ethanol) – 6 points + 6 points from America 12 points
Ecological Restoration - 1.5 points

Military:
2 Heavy Cruisers – 12 of 16 points (3 points to each) (year 2 of 3)
3 Anti-Aircraft Cruiser – 3 points to each (9 of 18 points) (year 1 of 2)
2 Frigate Flotilla – 10 points
1 Destroyer Squadrons – 5 points
1 Armored Division – 5 points



Brazil's 1957 Build:

Population: 60 million
Tech Level: 7
Production:
Factories:
Sao Paulo 7, Rio de Janeiro 5, Salvador 5, Belo Horizonte 3, Fortaleza 3, Curitiba 2, Natal 2, Santos 2, Manaus 1, Recife 1, Porto Alegre 1, = 32 Factories
Commerce:
Airlines: 1 international, 3 national, 1 large airport = 10 points
Shipping: 27 shipping units = 40 point cap
Tourism:
Air Terminals: 3 (Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Salvador) = 3 points
Cruise Terminals: 3 (Belem, Fortaleza, Santos) = 3 points

3% Growth (due to regular spending)
1% Growth (due to Pan American Treaty)

4% Total Growth – 5 Factories – Sao Paulo 1, Rio de Janeiro 1, Salvador 1, Belo Horizonte 1, Recife 1,

Total Production:
64 industry + 10 airline + 40 shipping + 6 tourism = 120 points (due to cut spending)

Maintenance:
Intelligence Agency: BIA – 5 points
Army:
4 Highly Trained Garrisons - 2 points
3 Highly Trained Infantry Division – 1.5 points
1 Highly Trained Armored Division - .75 points
Air Force:
5 Regular Pilots - Free
Navy:
4 Costal Patrol Groups (160 boats) - 1 point
5 Destroyer Squadrons (25 ships) – 1.25 points
2 Frigate Flotilla (10 ships) - .5 points


Level III Social Spending – 18 points
Intelligence Agency – 5 points
Total Military – 7 points
Foreign Aid - 12 points (Nigeria)
Total Military Maintenance, Foreign Aid, Intelligence Agency and Social Spending – 42 points

Points left for builds – 78 points

Builds:

Domestic:
Electronics Industry – 5 points (year 3 of 5)
Alternate Energy Research (leads to ethanol) – 6 points + 6 points from America 12 points
1 Factory (Goiania) - 12 points (12 of 24 points)

Military:

1 HQ - 10 points
1 Garrison – 3 points
3 Infantry Divisions - 3 points
2 Mechanized infantry division - 8 points
1 Armored Division - 5 points
1 Mechanized Flak group - 5 points
2 Heavy Cruisers – 16 of 16 points (2 points to each) (year 3 of 3)
3 Anti-Aircraft Cruiser – (18 of 18 points) (year 2 of 2)
1 Frigate Flotilla - 5 points


Foreign:
Maintenance for Satellite Network (US) - 3 points

this is the longest post ever....... MUAhahaha

Parthini']I agree with China that the scale isn't a good one. For example, China has one of the lower scores, however, take a look at the coast of China. It is grotesquely more densely populated than Europe, yet I have to pay a much higher toll. The system is too broad, especially considering all of the growth will be happening in places where it is densely populated.

The same holds true for America as well.

California and the East Coast = uber-dense population for America compared to the rest of it.

EDIT:

On second thought, perhaps it'd be best if we dropped the whole "Population pollution" because it will be complicated in trying to figure out coastal populations, inland populations, mountainous populations, etc. (and populations are substantially different in E20 than in RL, and different time era, 1999 in RL and 1960 in E20). And do it for every single PC nation in E20, not to mention the NPC nations. Too crazy to figure out individually.

Another issue is that we'll have to figure out our land area then divide it by our 1960 E20 population levels instead of the 1999 census matrix (which will be math crazy at times, especially with all the annexed lands we have in E20) and then add all these different population densities within a natiion (could be 10 different densities like city density, village density, coastal density, inland density, regional / province density, etc.) Too much math work for what is supposed to be a fun game.

The same holds true for America as well.

California and the East Coast = uber-dense population for America compared to the rest of it.

EDIT:

On second thought, perhaps it'd be best if we dropped the whole "Population pollution" because it will be complicated in trying to figure out coastal populations, inland populations, mountainous populations, etc. (and populations are substantially different in E20 than in RL, and different time era, 1999 in RL and 1960 in E20). And do it for every single PC nation in E20, not to mention the NPC nations. Too crazy to figure out individually.

Another issue is that we'll have to figure out our land area then divide it by our 1960 E20 population levels instead of the 1999 census matrix (which will be math crazy at times, especially with all the annexed lands we have in E20) and then add all these different population densities within a natiion (could be 10 different densities like city density, village density, coastal density, inland density, regional / province density, etc.) Too much math work for what is supposed to be a fun game.


I used that population density because it was available, and population density hasn't really changed all that much in the last 40 years except in the African and Latin American cities, while North American and Western European cities are actually less densely populated (suburbia)

An alternative would be a simple -1% to growth unless you have pollution control measures (for population etc), and the penalties for using lots of coal and hydroelectric power remaining in effect (air pollution from the coal, other serious environmental consequences for the hydroelectric)

For commerce, 1 oil point fuels 20 points of commerce period (airlines, tourism and shipping), mainly for simplicity.

For military, 1 oil point fuels 20 maintenance points worth of military units (as some military units are more expensive then others)

nuclear powered ships naturally don't need oil, neither do garrison units, or reserve ground units during peacetime.

I have a question for the oil points: does one point fuel both the military AND the production? Or do you have to have one for each? Because if I need one for both, what's the point of being an oil-producing country if I can't export any?

Nigerian Build, 1957

Tech Level 6

Market Economy

Normal Spending

Growth: 2% (3% for spending + 1% for economic bloc [Commonwealth] - 1% for recession)

Population: 35 million

Income

Six industrial centers (Two at Lagos, Two at Abuja, one at Port Harcourt, one at Sokoto. 12 points)
Nineteen Tech 7 Shipping Units (28.5)
Tourism (3.5)
International/National Airports (4 points)
Foriegn Aid from Brazil (12 points)
TOTAL: 58 points

Domestic Spending

Level III Social Spending: 10 points

Production Center: 24 points

Debt to SA: 5 points

Level III Social Services for Benin and Niger: 4.5 points

Intelligence Agency: 5.5 (10/10)

Sub-Total: 49

Military Upkeep

3xHighly Trained Infantry Divisions: 1.5 points
1xHighly Trained Light Infantry Division: .5 points
1xHighly Trained Armored Brigade: .5 points
1xExpert Pilot: .25 points
1xCoastal Patrol Unit: .25 points
1xDestroyer Flotilla: .25 points
1xLight Missile Cruiser: .5 points
1xBAC Lightning Unit: 1 point

Sub-Total: 4.75

Military Spending

Upgrade One Infantry Division to Motorized Division: 1 point

Sub-total: 1 point

TOTAL: 55.75 points

Trade Assignment

Four Units to South Africa

Four Units to the United Kingdom

Four Units to Germany

Four to the United States

Two to Brazil

Oil Points
One to the UK

Two to South Africa

One to Nigeria

One to Germany

I have a question for the oil points: does one point fuel both the military AND the production? Or do you have to have one for each? Because if I need one for both, what's the point of being an oil-producing country if I can't export any?

example, Nigeria with 3 production centers would have 6 points of domestic production.

1 oil point fuels 20 points of military units and domestic production, so that would allow Nigeria fuel 14 maintenance points worth of military units in addition to its 6 domestic production.

The current oil points by the way aren't necessarily what you will have under the revised system. You can also use coal, natural gas etc to fuel your industry.

I will post who has what tonight or tomorrow. It is based on peak production according to various sources.

example, Nigeria with 3 production centers would have 6 points of domestic production.

1 oil point fuels 20 points of military units and domestic production, so that would allow Nigeria fuel 14 maintenance points worth of military units in addition to its 6 domestic production.

The current oil points by the way aren't necessarily what you will have under the revised system. You can also use coal, natural gas etc to fuel your industry.

I will post who has what tonight or tomorrow. It is based on peak production according to various sources.

Huh, that makes sense. So as of now, I'm using up about half an oil point to fuel six production centers and 5 points of military units?

Huh, that makes sense. So as of now, I'm using up about half an oil point to fuel six production centers and 5 points of military units?

yes, which means you can export any spare oil

From now on, only SURPLUS oil and natural gas and coal points count as revenue. Partial points cannot (for simplicity).

Hydroelectric power and nuclear power cannot be exported, nor can alternative fuels (for simplicity)

Energy Resources
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river)

This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

The Americas
Canada
Oil 5, Coal 4, Natural Gas 7, Hydroelectric 5
(Canada gets another 5 oil at tech level 8 for its oil sands which require that technology to economically extract)
USA
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5 (add 5 more oil once tech level 7.5 is reached representing Alaskan oil and the technology needed to extract it)
Central America (includes Mexico)
Oil 7, Natural Gas 2, hydroelectric 1
Caribbean
Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 2
FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible)
Brazil
Natural gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (3 more possible), at tech level 7.5 will gain 4 oil points (deep drilling technology)
Dutch Caribbean
Oil 2, Natural Gas 1

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Oil 3 (Angola), Coal 4, Natural Gas 1 (Angola)
Nigeria
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
West Africa
Oil 1
East Africa and Belgian Congo have no energy resources (although some hydroelectric possibilities along with West Africa)

Middle East and North Africa
Algeria
Oil 2, Natural Gas 5
Libya
Oil 3, Natural Gas 5
Saudi Arabia
Oil 20, Natural Gas 4
Oman
Oil 4, Natural Gas 1
Kuwait
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5
Baghdad
Oil 1, Natural gas 1
Basra
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Kurdistan
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2, Hydroelectric 1
Turkey
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Central Asia
Oil 4, Natural Gas 6, Coal 3,
Kashgaria
Oil 1, Coal 1, Natural Gas 1
Armenia
Hydroelectric 1, Coal 1
Egypt
Hydroelectric 3
Jordan, Western Arabia, Yemen and Syria
No energy resources

Russia
Oil 10, Natural Gas 10 (both double at tech level 7.5 as technology for Arctic drilling becomes available), Coal 18, Hydroelectric 6

(special note: North America and Russia hold 50% of the worlds Natural Gas and Coal reserves… geography can be unfair at times. Makes up for all that oil in the Mideast. Africa and South America were treated unkindly by geography in many respects, as was Europe and Australia)

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2
Rumania
Oil 2, Coal 1, Natural Gas 10
Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1
Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5)
Germany
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 3, Natural Gas 2)
Czechslovakia
Coal 2
Balkans
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 1
Italy & Slovenia
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, Natural Gas 1
France
Hydroelectric 1
Burgundy
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Iberia
Hydroelectric 1
Iceland
Alternative energy (geothermal) 1
British Isles
Coal 5, hydroelectric 1 (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 5, Natural Gas 5)

Asia and Oceania
Indian Subcontinent
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1
Burma
Oil 1, Natural Gas 1
USAE
Hydroelectric 2, natural gas 1
Spratley Islands
At tech level 7.5 Oil 4, Natural Gas 4
Parisal Islands
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Ceylon
Hydroelectric 1
China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4
Philippines
Natural Gas 1, hydroelectric 1
Korea
Coal 2, hydroelectric 2
Japan
Coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Indonesia
Oil 5, Natural Gas 10, Coal 4,
Malaysia and Brunei
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Australasia
Oil 1, Natural Gas 3, Coal 8

Energy Resources
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river)

This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4

I have a few questions to clear up everything.

1. China has 7 oil points now, correct? So does that mean I can maintain 140 maintainence points worth of military, or 140 commerce (theoretically) or a combination thereof?

2. I dunno if regular (non-mechanized) infantry requires oil in such quanities like mechanized ones do? I think regular infantry should require no oil- similiar to what happened during World War 3. During the war, China didn't have oil for a while so it could only produce infantry units while Japan blocked Chinese access to oil. Same goes for Garrison units like you stated above.

3. What about potential for hydro power and nuclear power and such? I recall that China has a hydroelectric potential of 6000 TW/h which can power two entire RL USA's (today in 2006) as today's USA consumes roughly 3200 or so TW/h worth of electricity. According to the CIA Factbook, China has the world's largest hydroelectric potential.

What about nuclear plants? Will they supply the same amount of power as a coal, oil, hydro, etc. plants?

4. Will Natural Gas be able to be used to pay military maintainence as well as oil? I mean, suppose I have 100 maintainence points, so I can use 2 nautral gas for 40 points worth of maintainence, and 3 oil for the other 60? After all, natural gas = gasoline fuel to make the tanks, planes, etc. "go", correct?

5. Will I be able to purchase any shortfall from Arabia or Africa or whoever has oil surplus at 1 point per 1 oil resource point?

Sorry for all these questions, GB. I just want to make sure that I understand this new system and see if this can be simplified the best possible so that EVERYBODY will be able to use this system without going nuts from the math and such involved.

----------------------------

I think a -1% "blanket" for population pollution would work, and the penalty be eliminated once a nation achieves "Pollution Controls" technology. That way we'll be able to keep things simple without needing too much number crunching and such.

Besides, the "technology" could be construed as better urban planning (suburbs, better traffic control, improved sanitary systems, etc.), improved sewer technology, water treatment plants, recycling centers, etc. What say you?

I have a few questions to clear up everything.

1. China has 7 oil points now, correct? So does that mean I can maintain 140 maintainence points worth of military, or 140 commerce (theoretically) or a combination thereof?

combination of both plus fuel your commerce and tourism


2. I dunno if regular (non-mechanized) infantry requires oil in such quanities like mechanized ones do? I think regular infantry should require no oil- similiar to what happened during World War 3. During the war, China didn't have oil for a while so it could only produce infantry units while Japan blocked Chinese access to oil. Same goes for Garrison units like you stated above.

maintenance costs are different for those units, so that is factored in. Light infantry has few vehicles for example compared to regular infantry (which has vehicles for support and artillery units) and mechanized infantry has a higher maintenance cost


3. What about potential for hydro power and nuclear power and such? I recall that China has a hydroelectric potential of 6000 TW/h which can power two entire RL USA's (today in 2006) as today's USA consumes roughly 3200 or so TW/h worth of electricity. According to the CIA Factbook, China has the world's largest hydroelectric potential.

You have a high hydroelectric point amount already and could expand it yes


What about nuclear plants? Will they supply the same amount of power as a coal, oil, hydro, etc. plants?

nuclear counts the same as coal and natural gas. They can be used to fuel domestic production only however.


4. Will Natural Gas be able to be used to pay military maintainence as well as oil? I mean, suppose I have 100 maintainence points, so I can use 2 nautral gas for 40 points worth of maintainence, and 3 oil for the other 60? After all, natural gas = fuel to make the tanks, planes, etc. "go", correct?

Only oil. Liquified natural gas is not a viable vehicle fuel until tech level 8


5. Will I be able to purchase any shortfall from Arabia or Africa or whoever has oil surplus at 1 point per 1 oil resource point?

for simplicity, we are going to just treat all excess as on the world market, and price fluctuations will occur based on current events, and has some countries (the US for example) see their oil production fall (the US reached its peak production in 1955 in real life, while China just reached its peak production)


Sorry for all these questions, GB. I just want to make sure that I understand this new system and see if this can be simplified the best possible so that EVERYBODY will be able to use this system without going nuts from the math and such involved.

thats why I don't want to impliment it until 1960

----------------------------

I think a -1% "blanket" for population pollution would work, and the penalty be eliminated once a nation achieves "Pollution Controls" technology. That way we'll be able to keep things simple without needing too much number crunching and such.

Besides, the "technology" could be construed as better urban planning (suburbs, better traffic control, improved sanitary systems, etc.), improved sewer technology, water treatment plants, recycling centers, etc. What say you?

Just as long as the tech level requirement is met (tech level 7.5) and even then I have misgivings. Even with pollution control technology the US for example produces a vast amount of garbage, and much of it is toxic, dangerous or simply immense in amount, requiring vast amounts of money be spent to deal with it.

More accurate would be -2% until pollution control, then -1 after that, and improved pollution control at tech level 9 (should we get there)

Energy Resources
Based on peak production figures for latter half of 20th Century or current figures (which are based on peak production in nearly all cases). Not all nuclear resources are included as they are still being compiled. Some nations have some hydroelectric capability that is not shown (and can be developed, generally Third World nations that don't have vast amounts of deserts and do have a major world class river)

This does not look at reserves, only production and that will change as reserves are drawn down.

The Americas
Canada
Oil 5, Coal 4, Natural Gas 7, Hydroelectric 5
(Canada gets another 5 oil at tech level 8 for its oil sands which require that technology to economically extract)
USA
Oil 16, Coal 18, Nuclear 12, Natural Gas 20, Hydroelectric 5 (add 5 more oil once tech level 7.5 is reached representing Alaskan oil and the technology needed to extract it)
Central America (includes Mexico)
Oil 7, Natural Gas 2, hydroelectric 1
Caribbean
Hydroelectric 1, nuclear 2
FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible)
Brazil
Natural gas 1, hydroelectric 1 (3 more possible), at tech level 7.5 will gain 4 oil points (deep drilling technology)
Dutch Caribbean
Oil 2, Natural Gas 1

Sub Saharan Africa
South Africa
Oil 3 (Angola), Coal 4, Natural Gas 1 (Angola)
Nigeria
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
West Africa
Oil 1
East Africa and Belgian Congo have no energy resources (although some hydroelectric possibilities along with West Africa)

Middle East and North Africa
Algeria
Oil 2, Natural Gas 5
Libya
Oil 3, Natural Gas 5
Saudi Arabia
Oil 20, Natural Gas 4
Oman
Oil 4, Natural Gas 1
Kuwait
Oil 5, Natural Gas 1
UIR
Oil 12, Natural Gas 5
Baghdad
Oil 1, Natural gas 1
Basra
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Kurdistan
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2, Hydroelectric 1
Turkey
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Central Asia
Oil 4, Natural Gas 6, Coal 3,
Kashgaria
Oil 1, Coal 1, Natural Gas 1
Armenia
Hydroelectric 1, Coal 1
Egypt
Hydroelectric 3
Jordan, Western Arabia, Yemen and Syria
No energy resources

Russia
Oil 10, Natural Gas 10 (both double at tech level 7.5 as technology for Arctic drilling becomes available), Coal 18, Hydroelectric 6

(special note: North America and Russia hold 50% of the worlds Natural Gas and Coal reserves… geography can be unfair at times. Makes up for all that oil in the Mideast. Africa and South America were treated unkindly by geography in many respects, as was Europe and Australia)

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2
Rumania
Oil 2, Coal 1, Natural Gas 10
Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1
Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5)
Germany
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 3, Natural Gas 2)
Czechslovakia
Coal 2
Balkans
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 1
Italy & Slovenia
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1, Natural Gas 1
France
Hydroelectric 1
Burgundy
Coal 2, Hydroelectric 1
Iberia
Hydroelectric 1
Iceland
Alternative energy (geothermal) 1
British Isles
Coal 5, hydroelectric 1 (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 5, Natural Gas 5)

Asia and Oceania
Indian Subcontinent
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1
Burma
Oil 1, Natural Gas 1
USAE
Hydroelectric 2, natural gas 1
Spratley Islands
At tech level 7.5 Oil 4, Natural Gas 4
Parisal Islands
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Ceylon
Hydroelectric 1
China
Coal 12, Oil 7, Natural Gas 7, hydroelectric 4
Philippines
Natural Gas 1, hydroelectric 1
Korea
Coal 2, hydroelectric 2
Japan
Coal 1, hydroelectric 1
Indonesia
Oil 5, Natural Gas 10, Coal 4,
Malaysia and Brunei
Oil 2, Natural Gas 2
Australasia
Oil 1, Natural Gas 3, Coal 8


this is pretty important

maintenance costs are different for those units, so that is factored in. Light infantry has few vehicles for example compared to regular infantry (which has vehicles for support and artillery units) and mechanized infantry has a higher maintenance cost

So we're using a "blanket" of 1 oil point = 20 maintainence points to cover all these different maintainence costs, then? That works.

You have a high hydroelectric point amount already and could expand it yes

All right, I can live with that. My next question is how do we determine the amount to be expanded (maximum cap) for not just China but all other nations who possess hydro potential? Is the cap 10 units? 50 units? or what? Thats what we need to figure out, cap-wise.

nuclear counts the same as coal and natural gas. They can be used to fuel domestic production only however.

What about nuclear powered vehicles (naval ships or subs)?

for simplicity, we are going to just treat all excess as on the world market, and price fluctuations will occur based on current events, and has some countries (the US for example) see their oil production fall (the US reached its peak production in 1955 in real life, while China just reached its peak production)

I have another question- how much can each nation expand their oil, gas, etc. productivity (related to my hydro question above)?

Just as long as the tech level requirement is met (tech level 7.5) and even then I have misgivings. Even with pollution control technology the US for example produces a vast amount of garbage, and much of it is toxic, dangerous or simply immense in amount, requiring vast amounts of money be spent to deal with it.

More accurate would be -2% until pollution control, then -1 after that, and improved pollution control at tech level 9 (should we get there)

Hmm... I've heard about technologies developed a decade or two ago that can reduce coal (and factory) pollution / toxins by 90% - 95% through scrubbers, vaporization, and such (can't remember exact processes). Also there's another good way to reduce pollution- enact a Kyoto Protocol of our own? Reduce car and factory emissions? Alternative fuel sources can also reduce population pollution- less smog and stuff from ethanol cars or such.

Also, what about massive recycling programs? That could reuse some of the stuff left around in landfills? Also, what about custom solutions (needs to be RP'ed out)? That should give us some interesting ideas and ways to deal with pollution in creative yet realistic ways.

Certain military and commerce units that are nuclear powered do not require oil. Military units require the same amount of oil as their maintenance cost, .

regarding nuclear powered units

All right, I can live with that. My next question is how do we determine the amount to be expanded (maximum cap) for not just China but all other nations who possess hydro potential? Is the cap 10 units? 50 units? or what? Thats what we need to figure out, cap-wise.

its going to vary by country. For example, Libya has no hydroelectric capacity



What about nuclear powered vehicles (naval ships or subs)?

see above


I have another question- how much can each nation expand their oil, gas, etc. productivity (related to my hydro question above)?

no expansion of oil and gas, the figures above are peak production figures. The exceptions are given above


Hmm... I've heard about technologies developed a decade or two ago that can reduce coal (and factory) pollution / toxins by 90% - 95% through scrubbers, vaporization, and such (can't remember exact processes). Also there's another good way to reduce pollution- enact a Kyoto Protocol of our own? Reduce car and factory emissions? Alternative fuel sources can also reduce population pollution- less smog and stuff from ethanol cars or such.

Also, what about massive recycling programs? That could reuse some of the stuff left around in landfills? Also, what about custom solutions (needs to be RP'ed out)? That should give us some interesting ideas and ways to deal with pollution in creative yet realistic ways.

all are tech level 8 technologies or tech level 7.5 technologies and some technologies aren't available yet in real life

Interesting.. my amount of Oil hasn't changed for the past twenty years.

FNS has 132 points of domestic production (no effect), population density of 29 (no effect), and uses 20 points of coal (no effect), and 40 points of hydroelectric (no effect).
Pollution effects therefore reduce FNS growth by 0%.

Energy Point Breakdown:
Oil: 120pts
Coal 1: 20pts
Natural Gas: 80pts
Hydroelectric: 40pts
Nuclear: 140pts

USAGE:
132pts for Domestic Industry; 100pts for Trade Industry; 56.5pts for Military Upkeep (Minus nuclear powered vessels);
Therefore, I have a shitload of points I don't fucking need, and a shitload of Oil that I don't have. I can fund 280 domestic points... Is it possible to phase out my Coal and Hydroelectric Usage? I have 120 Oil points at yet I need 156.5pts of Oil. Damn you all to hell. So is it possible to say... power part of Brazil with my Nuclear reactors?

1958 - FNS
Oil 6, coal 1, natural gas 4, hydroelectric 2 (2 more possible)
46 Million Population

148 base + 100 points from International Trade + 5 from Nuke Plants= 7

132 Domestic Points
6 Oil Points
8 Points Tourism
100 Points Trade

7 Nuclear Power Plants (Buenos Aires, Lima, Bogota, Quito, Caracas, Cali, Panama)

Level 5 Education and Safety Net: 44p
Upkeep: 68.5p

1 x Specialized Infantry Division = 2pts (Elite Training)
6 x Mechanized Divisions = 6p (Elite Training)
2 x Armoured Divisions = 4p (Elite Training) (Heavy Tank)
10 x Mountain Brigades = 5p (Elite Training)
1 x HQ Unit = 1p
8 x Jet Fighters (M-108) = 8
1 x Intercontinental Jet Bomber (Tu-95) = 2p
1 x E121 Aircraft = .5
2 x Flak Artillery = .5p
4 x Missile Cruiser = 2p (Manuel Ancizar and Alberto Lleras Camargo)
6 x Light Ships (30 Destroyers) = 1.5p
5 x Light Ships (50 Frigates) = 1.25p
1 x Patrol Group = .25p
2 x Missile Boat Groups = .5p
10 x Nuclear Submarines
11 x Pilots Upgrade = 7p (Elite Training)
1 x Average Pilot = Free!!!! Used in E121
1 x Intelligence Agency = 5p
100 x IRBM = 1p
400 x AS-15 KENT missiles = 4p
+ 6 for constant nuclear fueling
+ a futher 6 for nuclear improvement

139 +10 from China for Discretionary Spending (149pts)

Free Milk for everyone - 22pts
24 points for MIRVs (3/3)
15 - Fleet Carrier (3 / 3 years)
6 Points to Joint Space Program with the US
12 points for Electronics Industry (5/5)
24 points for eigth Nuclear Power Plant
24 points for ninth Nuclear Power Plant
8.5 to world bank
2 x Average Pilots - 4pts
2 x E121 Warning Star airborne radar aircraft - 6pts
5 points to buy Oil from someone for the love of all that is holy.
22.5pts left to ponder my life away
= 149


BTW
Completed Conditions for Tech Level 7.5 Advancement
1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years. (been level 5 for a long time now)
2. Has reached 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years.
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (US Joint Venture plzkthx)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (I gots 7 soon 9)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (yeye!)
6. Electronics Industry (done in 1958)

More nuclear powerplants will be extended to: Georgetown, La Paz, and Asuncion



Now, be kind if I skipped ahead a year... I got kicked in the mouth during rugby practice... metal cleats + jaw/lip = lots of blood and hilariousness. Im a wee woozy.

regarding nuclear powered units

Let me clarify.

I was asking whether nuclear resources will be used for nuclear vehicles, ships, etc. For example, will 1 nuclear "point" be able to produce enough uranium and such to power, say, 10 ballistic nuclear subs, or 2 nuclear aircraft carriers or stuff like that?

Oil "points" for non-nuclear units.

Nuclear "points" for nuclear units.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

I have a question- how many points is required to research and establish an Ethanol fuel industry as an alternative fuel for cars, trains, planes, etc.?

So I have

Coal: 240 points
Oil: 40 points
Natural Gas: 20 points

I take it that isn't enough oil and Natural Gas...

I either need an alternative, or I need to invade some country with alot of oil *shifty eyes*

Let me clarify.

I was asking whether nuclear resources will be used for nuclear vehicles, ships, etc. For example, will 1 nuclear "point" be able to produce enough uranium and such to power, say, 10 ballistic nuclear subs, or 2 nuclear aircraft carriers or stuff like that?

Oil "points" for non-nuclear units.

Nuclear "points" for nuclear units.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

doesn't work that way... nuclear power stations are what the nuclear represents, nuclear powered vehicles are already covered in the rules in the military thread

I have a question- how many points is required to research and establish an Ethanol fuel industry as an alternative fuel for cars, trains, planes, etc.?

12 points and 1 year and you get 1 ethanol resource (which can be used for domestic production)

12 points and 1 year and you get 1 ethanol resource (which can be used for domestic production)

How should we go about expanding Ethanol resources? Should we treat Ethanol as an extra-expensive resource with "minimal" enviromental impact (being a crop fuel instead of drilling or mining, as well as more clean burning, and less enviromental hazards than the other power generation methods) and theoretically inexhaustible supply as long as sugar cane and ethanol crops still exist on Earth?

What about 36 points to gain +1 Ethanol resource in the same way we spend 24 points to gain +1 nuclear resource?

EDIT:

+1 Ethanol point after initial research of 12 points.

+1 Ethanol point for every 36 points invested thereafter in Ethanol production and refining (similiar in principle as +1 nuclear point for every 24 points invested already in use)

Will this system work?

Preliminary Russian National Builds – 1956
Normal Spending Enacted
85 (x2) Factories + 38 Commerce (20 Shipping Units + 4
Airlines) + 3 Oil + 4 Tourism + 69 Points (from America) = 284

Military Upkeep:
6 Infantry Corps (3 Points)
2 Elite Mountain Divisions (6 Brigades) (4.5 Points)
4 Yak 25 w/ Expert Pilots (5 Points)
2 Yak 28 w/ Expert Pilots (1.5 Points)
2 Air Transports w/ Average Pilots (1 Point)
4 Elite Mechanized Infantry Divisions (4 Points)
5 Elite Armored Brigades (3.75 Points)
Total: 22.75 Points

Civilian Builds/Research:
Level 3 Social Services: 28 points
Intelligence Network: 5 Points
Improve Electronics Industry: 5 Points (Year 3/5)
Intermediate (IRBM) range missiles: 24 Points
National Air Defense Radar Network: 10 Points
Nuclear Power Plants (3): 72 Points (Year 2/2)
Civil Defense Network: 10 Points
4 Factories: 96 Points

Foreign Aid: 5.25 Points to Georgia

KGB Slush Fund: 6 Points

Spent: 284 Points
Waste: 0 Points

Any Help with this would be appreciated!

How should we go about expanding Ethanol resources? Should we treat Ethanol as an extra-expensive resource with "minimal" enviromental impact (being a crop fuel instead of drilling or mining, as well as more clean burning, and less enviromental hazards than the other power generation methods) and theoretically inexhaustible supply as long as sugar cane and ethanol crops still exist on Earth?

What about 36 points to gain +1 Ethanol resource in the same way we spend 24 points to gain +1 nuclear resource?

EDIT:

+1 Ethanol point after initial research of 12 points.

+1 Ethanol point for every 36 points invested thereafter in Ethanol production and refining (similiar in principle as +1 nuclear point for every 24 points invested already in use)

Will this system work?


ethanol production would cut directly into food production, which is something most nations can't afford to do. Only net food exporters should have the option of having more than 1 ethanol point. Even then its not a very efficient fuel.

So 1 point seems reasonable and simple. After all, Brazil, the worlds leading ethanol user, only gets about 20% of its fuel that way.

ethanol production would cut directly into food production, which is something most nations can't afford to do. Only net food exporters should have the option of having more than 1 ethanol point. Even then its not a very efficient fuel.

So 1 point seems reasonable and simple. After all, Brazil, the worlds leading ethanol user, only gets about 20% of its fuel that way.

Hmm. What of improvements to Ethanol manufacturing?

In RL, China is in the top three of the world's biggest Ethanol producers, along with Brazil and the USA. Even though China hasn't really developed Ethanol production and manufacturing as much as it should in RL, it should have considerably more incentive to develop it in E20, with the early industrialization, non-communist government, a capitalist economy, and the oil crisis.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=reutersEdge&storyID=2006-04-28T104842Z_01_CAS838768_RTRUKOC_0_ENERGY-CHINA-ETHANOL.xml

China in E20 should be able to produce some nice amounts of Ethanol, given that its population is half of what it is in RL (meaning more food available to "convert" into Ethanol) and the necessity of Ethanol therefore more research efforts put into efficient usage of Ethanol than in RL.

China will also be looking into wind turbines and solar power plants. They will be feasible in large quanities- wind turbine farms in the Himalayas mountains with all the trans-contiental jet streams there, and the solar power plants in the Gobi Desert (lots of sun, and cloudy weather is rare in deserts). I'm not exactly sure when wind turbines can be built- I think Tech Level 7.5 should do, while the solar plants should be Tech Level 8.

I'm trying to think of alternative energy sources as E20 China now has the world's largest economy, having passed the USA in base industry points. So by 1960 or 1970, China will have so much industry that enormous research and effort will have to be taken into alternative energy sources and even electric cars and wean itself (China) off fossil fuels eventually. After all, China will end up needing clean and alternative fuel resources far more than the US, UK, Germany, and the rest of the world out of pure necessity and survival.

man Domestic Production is not a matter... just build nuclear power plants. The real problem is the gat-dang Oil for Merchant Vessels and Military Vehicles.

Hmm. What of improvements to Ethanol manufacturing?

In RL, China is in the top three of the world's biggest Ethanol producers, along with Brazil and the USA. Even though China hasn't really developed Ethanol production and manufacturing as much as it should in RL, it should have considerably more incentive to develop it in E20, with the early industrialization, non-communist government, a capitalist economy, and the oil crisis.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=reutersEdge&storyID=2006-04-28T104842Z_01_CAS838768_RTRUKOC_0_ENERGY-CHINA-ETHANOL.xml

China in E20 should be able to produce some nice amounts of Ethanol, given that its population is half of what it is in RL (meaning more food available to "convert" into Ethanol) and the necessity of Ethanol therefore more research efforts put into efficient usage of Ethanol than in RL.

China will also be looking into wind turbines and solar power plants. They will be feasible in large quanities- wind turbine farms in the Himalayas mountains with all the trans-contiental jet streams there, and the solar power plants in the Gobi Desert (lots of sun, and cloudy weather is rare in deserts). I'm not exactly sure when wind turbines can be built- I think Tech Level 7.5 should do, while the solar plants should be Tech Level 8.

I'm trying to think of alternative energy sources as E20 China now has the world's largest economy, having passed the USA in base industry points. So by 1960 or 1970, China will have so much industry that enormous research and effort will have to be taken into alternative energy sources and even electric cars and wean itself (China) off fossil fuels eventually. After all, China will end up needing clean and alternative fuel resources far more than the US, UK, Germany, and the rest of the world out of pure necessity and survival.

I think wind turbine farms should be tech level 8 as well. By the way, the US has 340 production centers, China has 329

I'm pretty happy with this new system, largely because my navy is about to switch to mostly nuclear powered and the North Sea is about to start producing oil!

The system doesn't seem to be too bad to get the hang of, all things considered.

It's just 24 points to build the Aswan Low Dam, right? (That's what you paid for the High Dam)

GB, how much could Japan realistically expand their hydroelectric power and how much would it cost? Also, could Japan build an ethanol industry, because I don't think it produces much to make it big

GB, how much could Japan realistically expand their hydroelectric power and how much would it cost? Also, could Japan build an ethanol industry, because I don't think it produces much to make it big

sadly no to both... best hope for Japan is stable access to oil supplies, and to reach tech level 8 and invest in solar, tidel energy and windpower (when they become available at that tech level)

Japan doesn't have many rivers nor spare land to take away from food production.

Its easy to see why historical Japan fought World War II though

I think these rules are good for balance purposes, but bad for my own personal interests (I have no oil :( )

So 1 point seems reasonable and simple. After all, Brazil, the worlds leading ethanol user, only gets about 20% of its fuel that way.

Now in RL brazil is only 20% dependent on foriegn oil. Says Wikipedia. Or you might be talking about another time frame

The largest national fuel ethanol industries exist in Brazil and the United States. The Brazilian ethanol industry is based on sugarcane; as of 2004, Brazil produces 14 billion liters annually, enough to replace about 40% of its gasoline demand. Also as a result, they have become 80% independent from foreign oil. Most new cars sold in Brazil are flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on ethanol, gasoline, or any blend of the two.

Now in RL brazil is only 20% dependent on foriegn oil. Says Wikipedia. Or you might be talking about another time frame

The largest national fuel ethanol industries exist in Brazil and the United States. The Brazilian ethanol industry is based on sugarcane; as of 2004, Brazil produces 14 billion liters annually, enough to replace about 40% of its gasoline demand. Also as a result, they have become 80% independent from foreign oil. Most new cars sold in Brazil are flexible-fuel vehicles that can run on ethanol, gasoline, or any blend of the two.

thats all true, and I considered it, until I read up on the fact that Brazilian oil is from deep drilling (tech level 8 technology) and the ethanol capability will expand for Brazil.

But this is what you start with

It's just 24 points to build the Aswan Low Dam, right? (That's what you paid for the High Dam)

yep, and it will give you 2 more hydroelectric points when finished

the environmental costs will come as well

thats all true, and I considered it, until I read up on the fact that Brazilian oil is from deep drilling (tech level 8 technology) and the ethanol capability will expand for Brazil.

But this is what you start with

ahhok got ya, but do you think that it would be possible, when the brazilian ethanol program is up and running fairly well, maybe 7.5 because i have been researching ethanol for 3 years now and when i reach 7.5 it will probly be 5-10 years. Do you think that i would have a sufficient supply so that i would be abl to export some. Moreover, i factored in that ur giving 6 points to the ethanol research in 57. Also, how many points do i need to give to the USA for the satillite program.

ahhok got ya, but do you think that it would be possible, when the brazilian ethanol program is up and running fairly well, maybe 7.5 because i have been researching ethanol for 3 years now and when i reach 7.5 it will probly be 5-10 years. Do you think that i would have a sufficient supply so that i would be abl to export some. Moreover, i factored in that ur giving 6 points to the ethanol research in 57. Also, how many points do i need to give to the USA for the satillite program.

3 points to US for satellites, and let me think about the ethanol thing.. remind me when we hit 1960

I think wind turbine farms should be tech level 8 as well. By the way, the US has 340 production centers, China has 329

370 production centers in 1957 which should be around the corner.

man Domestic Production is not a matter... just build nuclear power plants. The real problem is the gat-dang Oil for Merchant Vessels and Military Vehicles.

Uranium isn't infinite, ya know.

What happens if oil and uranium runs out much earlier than RL because of the early industrialization of Third World nations like China, India, Colombia, Brazil, etc. I can see oil and uranium running out by 2000 (in E20) instead of 2020+ (in RL)

Conversely, wind turbines, solar power, hydroelectric power, ethanol, etc. are renewable energy sources and can sustain Chinese industry for millions of years, long after the Earth has no more oil or uranium deposits.

I have a question that needs to be clarified.

What boosts are there (if any) in commerce once nations hit Tech Level 7.5? I remember GB saying that merchant increases to 50 and air commerce increases to 20 and tourism increases to 30? And free tourism points for air commerce?

Or am I thinking of Tech level 8? I'd like that cleared up, please.

Just a clarification on the commerce oil costs. Is it one oil point pays for 20 commerce units or one oil point pays for 20 commerce points?

China, the problem with Ethanol fuel is, there isn't enough land to grow it on. Your going to have trouble feeding yourself, because even though you've industrialized early,(Only a decade or two at that) your still going to easily break the 1 billion mark with your population, and unless you try to do what China did in real, limiting the number of children people can have, then you will keep on going up after that. Even though you have more base points than America exc exc, you aren't even at half your potential with 370 prod centers or whatever you have, you aren't at that industrial level we see in Europe and America that is slashing birth rates and so you will need lots of food.

Even if growth was stopped you couldn't produce enough Ethanol, switching gasoline with Ethanol is impractical simply because it would take way to much land to grow enough Ethanol, and while China is big and you do have lots of land, your farming is maxed out, China doesn't have extra farmland to spare. Hell, even the shitty hillsides are terraced out and farmed because there isn't any other land to get. Now granted you could produce massive amounts of Ethanol, it would not be enough at all to phase out gasoline usage. If you put enough effort into it you will be able to cut down gasoline usage in China a lot, but you will still be dependant on gasoline, even more so as your economy expands and your people get more afluent and start buying more and more things.

As for solar power, you could build them up in the Gobi Desert, but as withethanol, you will still need ther sources of energy like natural gas and oil. Solar panels aren't very efficient at all and so you would need very large fields, granted you have the room to build some large fields in the Gobi, but you have to take into acount sandstorms and sand dunes which move alot and will cause lots of damage to your solar panels.

Modern day China, right now in rl, uses a lot of energy, they're projected to overtake America by 2010 or 2015(Can't remember, I did a report on Chinese Energy usage a a few months ago so the exact dates are kinda foggy). The way things are going here, you've probaly already passed up America in energy usage. With that fact going, you ned to realize that in rl China the grand majority of energy comes from coal, I believe it was something like 60 some%.(The biggest killer in China is respiritory disease caused by coal pollution actually) Even with that China still uses very large amounts of other energy sources, now if you cut out coal in E20 and focus on other sources, and you keep on industrializing, solar and wind power will not cover you. You are simply to big and you only have so much extra land to go around. Unless you make some drastic moves, China will be dependant on oil, granted they might not be depenmdant as they are in real or as other nations are, but they will be dependant to an extent.

Europe
Ukraine
Hydroelectric 4, Coal 2, Natural gas 2

Poland
Coal 3, Hydroelectric 1

Scandic Union
Coal 1, Hydroelectric 2, (at tech level 7.5 North Sea Oil 7, Natural Gas 5)


Both Poland and the Ukraine have a nuclear power plant apiece, I helped them build them. I also have 1 in northern Finland.

What happened to the two oil points I used to have in Silesia and Austria?

Not to mention as of 1958 I will have 6 nuclear power plants.

Korea and Vladivostok Protected City- 1957 builds:

Population 36 million (Using 1.5% growth rate, calculated since 1950 and based on possible Geohive population graphs for South Korea, though it was hard to get an exact count).

Tech level 7 (all shipping now 1.5pts)
Constitutional Monarchy
Market Economy, Peacetime 3%(SCT Growth Bonus adds +1%, so 4%)
Oil Shock is over, so normal growth (4%). But, using pollution rules, I now am at 3% mainly because of my population....

39 points Production centers: Seoul 4 Pusan 4 Pyongyang 4 Vladivostok 3 Kwangju 4

19 shipping units= 30 Points (rounded, factoring in 5% sattelite bonus)

1 national airline, 1 International Airline (Korean Airlines)= 4 points (rounded, factoring 5% sattelite bonus)

and 3 points of tourism (Seoul, Pyongyang, Vladivostok International Airports)

SCT member= 1% Growth Bonus

78 total points to spend (rounded, factoring growth in)

Level 4 social spending- 12 points

Foreign Aid- 4 points to a Pan-SCT Asian Space Program (OOC: Any of the SCT guys need to work on rocket research, stuff like that, this goes to that)

Five points allocated to keep the Korean National Police Agency going

Korean Armed Forces

Korean Army:

1 infantry division .25 points
1 mountain infantry brigades .25 points
2 HQ units- 2pt
1 Parachute Brigade unit- .75 pts (standard .25 matenance plus .5 extra elite training cost)
1 Armored Division- .5 matenance
1 Mech Infantry Division-.5 points
1 Infantry Corps- .5 points
1 Transport Group-.25 points

Korean Air Force:

1 Dassault Mirage III Fighter-1
5 expert pilots 1.25 points
1 IL-28/H-5 Light Bomber Unit- .5 matenance
1 Transport Helo unit (Ht-1 Jin) -.25
1 Lincoln Tanker-.5
1 Flying Boxcar-.25
4 Sejong IRBM Missiles-4 points
2 Sejong II ICBM Missiles-2
1 TU95 PhotoRecon Plane-2

Korean Navy:

1 Light Cruiser, .5 matenance
1 Destroyer Squadron, .25 matenance
2 Attack Submarine Groups- 1 point matenance
2 Units of Coastal patrol vessels- .5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25

Total: 20 Points (Estimated)

To Be Disbanded (or Gifted to somebody Else: Anybody want these just say so!)

Things to buy-

5 Points- Subsidies to encourage development of an electronics industry
24 points towards Nuclear Infrastructure (got the plans from the USEA, but I need a reactor at-survey says-Yongbyon).
3 points for a unit of Avro Arrow Jets

Oil Points-
2 Imported from CAR
1 in the works from UIR

OOC: I read one of those historical population graphs...I was stumped...

Requirements-Tech 7.5:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Got it)
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (45% productivity, need to get crackin'!)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Yeah)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Yeah)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Oh yeah.)
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry ( fourth year Moving out, just one more)

Trade Partners for 1954-

3 USEA
2 China
2 Japan
2 FAS
2 UIR
2 Australia
2 Burma
1 Dispersed

Considering I've given close to 50 points over the past decade to Arabia to secure oil, how much of Saudi Arabia's oil will go to Germany?

Probally not as much as you'd think with all thats happened there. You want their oil, your probally going to have to pay for it.

USEA 1957 build

Population: 51 million
Tech level: 7
Government: Social Democracy
Economy: Captalist [Peace time {3% growth + 1% SCT Economic Bonus- 1% from pollution = 3%}]

Economic budget: 156 points (Production centers [102]: Hanoi 3, Saigon, 3, Vientene 3, Pnomh Penh 3, Bangkok 3, Haiphong 3, Da Nang 3, Cam Ranh 3, Si Racha 3, Can Tho 3, Kampong Cham 3, Sattahip 3, Pakxe 2, Leam Chabang 2, Vinh 2, Kracheh 2, Louangphrabang 2, Xam Nua 2, Surat Thani 2, Chiang Mai 2, Kampot 2. Oil[2]: Paracel Islands 2. Nuclear power plants[1]: Vinh 1. Commerce[46]: 1x National Airline 2, 2x Airport infrastructure 2, 28x Shipping Units 40 [14,000,000 million tons], Satellite comunications Network 2. Tourism [5]: Saigon 2, Bangkok 2, Hanoi 1 .Natural Growth[0]: 0 )

Domestic:

Level 4 Social spending- 25 points

Asian Space Program- 8 points

National Air Defense Warning System- 5 points

Civil Defence- 5 points

Electronics Industry- 5 points

1.5/5 National airline- 1.5 points

Military:

18/24 AEW Research- 6 points

Indochinese Inteligence Agency- 6 points

Nuclear weapons production program- 6 points

1x 10/10 HQ unit- 2.75 points

1x HQ unit- 10 points

1x C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units- 4 points

2x F8U Crusader fighter units- 6 points

2x Hong H-5 Medium Bomber unit- 6 points

4x Elite pilots- 16 points

Maintenance:
4 Light infantry divisions 3 points,*
1 parachute brigade 1 point, [Hand picked]
1 HQ unit 1.5 points,*
5 marine light infantry brigades 3.75 points,*
4 marine mechanized infantry divisions 4 points,*
2 Mechanized flak groups 2 points,*
2 mechanized infantry division 2 points,*
1 Armoured Division 1 point,*
1 Mechanized Artillery group 1 point,*
-
4 Dassault Mirage III fighter unit 4 points,
1 Ht-80 transport unit .25 points,
3 A4 Skyhawk light bomber units 1.5 points,
9 Ht-3 Helicopter transport units 2.25 points
1 C124 Globemaster Heavy transport units .5 point,
18 Elite pilots 9 points,
-
1 light ship unit (10 destroyers) .25 points,
2 light ship units (40 corvettes) .5 points,
2 Heavy fleet carrier battle groups 2 points,
3 Light missile cruisers 1.5 points,
1 Heavy Missile cruiser .5 points,
2 Coastal Patrol Groups .5 points,
2 Nuclear Attack submarines 1 point,
2 Amphibious Assault Group 1 point

TOTAL= 43.75
(*Denotes elite training)

Energy:
(USEA and Paracel islands)
Hydroelectric 2, Natural gas 3, Nuclear 1, Oil 2

120 energy points
- 102 domestic produstion points

18 surplus- 1 natural gas point

40 oil points
- 40 commerce points
- 61 military points

61 deficit - 4 oil points

[Will start making up the defecit in 1960 when the rules come into effect)

Conditions for tech level 7.5 advance:
Red indicates in progress, Blue indicates completed

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one. (Launched this year by the ASA)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
6. Has spent 5 points for 5 years on building an electonics industry (Year 3 of 5)

USEA trading Partners :
(40 points woth of shipping units)

Korea- 5

China- 5

Pakistan- 5

Japan- 5

The Phillipines- 5

Burma- 5

UIR- 4

Australia- 4

Dispersed- 3


Set NPC Builds:

Basra 1957 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 4
Economy: (Normal spending) [3% growth]
Economic Budget [24]: (Oil [2]: 2x oil resource 2. Commerce [20]: 14x shipping 14, 3x national airline 6. Growth[2]: 1

Domestic Spending:

Level 4 social spending 1.5 points,
3x national airline 15 points,
1x Shipping unit 3 points
1x International Airport Terminal (Basra)- 2 points [To be continued next year]

Military Spending:

Maintenace:
1 garrison unit 1 point, [Elite Trained]
2 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1.5 point [Elite Trained]

Total= 2.5 points.


Baghdad 1957 build
Population: 3 million
Tech level: 5
Economy: (Normal Spending) [3% growth - 1% World Oil Crisis = 2% growth]
Economic Budget [9]: (Production Centres [4]: Baghdad 2. Oil [1]: 1 oil resource. Commerce [4]: 2x national airline 4

Domestic Spending:
Level 3 social spending 1 point,

5/5 national airline 2 points (100% complete)

Aid to Arab League- 5 points


Military Spending:

Maintenance:
1 garrison unit. 25 points,
4 light infantry divisions (horse cavalry) 1 point,
1 artillery unit .25 points
1 Mechanized infantry division .5 points

Total= 2 points


Netherlands 1957 build
Population: 10 million
Tech level: 7
Economy: (Cut Spending) [5% Growth + 1 % EEC bonus= 6%]
Economic Budget [64]: (Production Centres [20]:Rotterdam 4, Amsterdam 4, Arnheim 4, Groningen 4, Nimwegen 4. Commerce [40] 2 national airlines 4, 24 shipping units 36. Other [3]: 3 colonial points. Tourism [1]: Carribean colony 1. Growth [0]: 3x points of growth 0

Domestic Spending:
level 4 social spending 4 points,
10 to UN World Bank

Surplus 43.5

Military Spending:

Maintenance:
2 reserve garrison units .5 points,
2 mechanized divisions 1 point,
2 coastal patrol groups .5 points,
2 light ship units (5 destroyers each) .5 points
2 escort cruisers 1 point,
1 F100 fighter wing .5 points,
1 F86D all weather fighter wing .5 points,
2 elite pilots 2 points,

Total= 6.5

Probally not as much as you'd think with all thats happened there. You want their oil, your probally going to have to pay for it.

But I did... I've given them like 50 points, which I assumed counted for infrastructure and aquiring of it.

That was a few years ago before all the fighting, I'm doubting your going to be getting oil free from SA, you'd have to pay for the oil. Before all the fighting it would have been different, but now many of the guys Germany dealt with are dead or whatnot exc exc.

That was a few years ago before all the fighting, I'm doubting your going to be getting oil free from SA, you'd have to pay for the oil. Before all the fighting it would have been different, but now many of the guys Germany dealt with are dead or whatnot exc exc.

I gave 20 points last year and another 5 this year.

I think they should begin to add up :)

So if Japan needed, say, 7 oil points, we'd pay 7 pts. in the economy plan for that year, or would we pay it directly to a certain country?

Japanese Build 1957

Population: 90 million
Growth: 2% (with pollution)
Production Centers: 99
Shipping and Air: 40
Tourism: 9
Total: 147

Lvl. 4 Social Safety Net:45

Maintenance: 24

3 Frigate Flotillas
2 Corvette Groups
4 Elite Light Infantry
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
2 Expert Pilots
7 Elite Pilots
5 Mirage III's
1 Destroyer Squadron
6 Garrison Units

Left: 77.75

Build:

Nuclear Fuel Process Infastructure (2nd year): 24
3 Frigate Flotillas: 15
2 Destroyer Squadrons: 10
1 Light Missle Cruiser: 6
4 Mountain Brigade: 8

Aid:
4 each to Burma, Phillipines, and the UIR
2.75 to ASP

I assume the cost of a military unit is their basic cost, not whether or not they are highly trained, etc.

Also, what about pilots?

I thought i factored in elite, but I haven't been to the military thread lately to see updates. I'll look right now

Pilots are in my build

Parthini']I assume the cost of a military unit is their basic cost, not whether or not they are highly trained, etc.

Also, what about pilots?

Haha. I meant oil costs. My bad.

I'll figure out oil costs later, I have stuff to do now

h

Parthini']I assume the cost of a military unit is their basic cost, not whether or not they are highly trained, etc.

Also, what about pilots?

pilots, count, and you spend more fuel for higher trained units.

So if Japan needed, say, 7 oil points, we'd pay 7 pts. in the economy plan for that year, or would we pay it directly to a certain country?

Japanese Build 1957

Population: 90 million
Growth: 2% (with pollution)
Production Centers: 99
Shipping and Air: 40
Tourism: 9
Total: 147

Lvl. 4 Social Safety Net:45

Maintenance: 24

3 Frigate Flotillas
2 Corvette Groups
4 Elite Light Infantry
4 Elite Parachute Brigades
4 C82's
2 Expert Pilots
7 Elite Pilots
5 Mirage III's
1 Destroyer Squadron
6 Garrison Units

Left: 77.75

Build:

Nuclear Fuel Process Infastructure (2nd year): 24
3 Frigate Flotillas: 15
2 Destroyer Squadrons: 10
1 Light Missle Cruiser: 6
4 Mountain Brigade: 8

Aid:
4 each to Burma, Phillipines, and the UIR
2.75 to ASP


you just assume you have access UNLESS special circumstances change the situation. Then it gets tricky (leaves room for oil shocks, embargos etc)

ok, thanks for clarifying

pilots, count, and you spend more fuel for higher trained units.

Wait, you spend more fuel for higher trained units?

Good sir, I find that a bit weird to believe. I mean, they're better trained, not better armed. The whole point of training them better is so that they can use what they have better, and they can work with less than what they have. Now, if higher training means you give them more tanks and stuff, that I would understand, but this isn't "better armed", this is "better trained".

Ah, but better training means that they spend more time out in the field doing training exercises and using more fuel whilst they're there and in getting to that location. Bearing in mind that not all exercises may take place in your country, for example the US and UK used to exchange training exercies so that their units would get a feel for many differenttypes of environment. Also think about jungle training for British troops, it's an essential part of the course but may require airlifts to Burma or Malaya or wherever.

All in all it's easier to just keep things as they are woth maintenence cost becoming oil cost.

France
Economy: Market.

Production centers available: 64 -72% productivity-

Commerce:
2 national airlines, 4 international airlines, 27 shipping units

Population: 44 milllion People

Tourisim: 4 centres in the Riviera.


Industrial Centres:
Paris 10, Nantes 7, Lille 7, Marseilles 8, Toulouse 7, Rouen 7, Vichy 8, Lyon 7

Tech Level: 7
--------------------------------------------
Income:
Production Centeres: 67*2 = 128 points

Commerce:Total= 50 points
Shipping= 40 points
National Airline= 4 points
International Airline= 6 points

Tourisim= 4 points

Investment Returns:
Ends 1968:
Northwest Africa (Mali, Senegal and Guinea): 12 points
Ends 1969:
(Burkina Faso, Ghana, Senegal): 12 points

Total= 206 Points
-------------------------------------------
Expenditure:
Level 5 social services= 44 points
Military Maintenance= 23.25 points
Inteligance Budget= 5 points
Extra Intelligence Budget= 5 points
ESA Research= 10 points
Electronics Industry= 5 points (Year IV)

1 Production Centre in Vichy= 24 points

Constructing:
1 Mirage IIIC Fighter
4 Mirage IV Light Bomber
Upgrading 3 B57 Canberra to 3 Mirage IV Light Bombers

Total= 24 points

French Airbase in Albania:
1 Mirage IIIE Strike Fighter
1 Elite Pilot
1 Elite Garrison
1 Reserve HQ
Total= 20 points

Forign Investment:
Yugoslavian Military Program (phase 2)= 10 points
Albo-Kosovan Military Program (phase 2)= 8 points
Yugoslavian Military Maintenance= 4 points
Albo-Kosovan Military Maintenance= 2.75 points

West African Aid (Senegal, Mali, Guinea, Burkina Faso):
Level IV social Services= 11 points
Loan: 5 points To Ivory Coast
Portugese aid: 5 points
-------------------------------------------------
Attempt at the new energy system (just a test, since it will not be implemented till 1960)
-------------------------------------------------
Energy:

Needed:
Production: 6 points
Military: 1 oil point
Commerce: 2.5 oil points

Total= 6 energy points, 3.5 oil points

Provided:
Nuclear: 1 point
Hydroelectric: 1 point

Imported:
3.5 oil points (priority given to oil from UIR and Algeria)
4 energy points:
3 natural gas (Priority Algeria)
1 Coal (Priority Europe (Germany, Burgundy, Czechoslovakia)

Cost: 4.5 production points
--------------------------------------------------------
Is this correct? or do I have to specify exactly which countries do I get oil from?
--------------------------------------------------------
Growth:
Normal Spending: 3%
Pollution: From population: -1%
EEC: 1%
Oil Shock: -1%

Total Growth= 4 production Centres.


Tech 7.5 or 8:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years (Done)
2. Has reached 75% of maximum economic productivity for at least 5 years (1962)
3. Has placed a man in orbit either by itself or in conjuction with 2 other nations. (Done)
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants. (Done)
5. Has an airline and tourist industry. (Done)
6. Spent 5 point a year for 5 years on building an electronics industry (Year 4)

Expected Tech 7.5: 1958 (Next Year)

Wait, you spend more fuel for higher trained units?

Good sir, I find that a bit weird to believe. I mean, they're better trained, not better armed. The whole point of training them better is so that they can use what they have better, and they can work with less than what they have. Now, if higher training means you give them more tanks and stuff, that I would understand, but this isn't "better armed", this is "better trained".

In real life, each US military unit has a certain budget for fuel each year. In some years its higher, and readiness improves. In other years its cut, and readiness goes down.

1957 Syrian Budget (Peacetime Market, National Effort Ended)
Income: 58
Production (12 centers, 3 Damascus, 4 Beirut, 2 Aleppo, 1 each Latakia, Tripoli, Homs): 24
Commerce (21 Shipping, Nat'l Airline): 33.5
Tourism: .5

Consistent Spending: 14.25
Military Maintenance: 7
Level 5 Social Programs: 6
Civil Defense and Radar Networks: 1.25

Other Spending
SFIR Upkeep: 5
Electronics Industry Subisidies (year 5): 5
Air Defense for Arab League (sans Egypt): 3.25
Mercury Sub-Orbital Missions: 3 (2 manned, 1 animal)
3 Shipping Units: 9
Other Aid to Arab League: 18.5*


*Does not include 3pts from Germany for military base, which are directly transferred to Arab League.

ARAB LEAGUE 1957 Expectations
Finish final year of fuel separation (enabling nuclear weapons in theory, all though specifically said not to be used to do so)
Begin Reactor technology
Continue researching ICBMs for more advanced space missions
Begin manned Sub-orbital missions.

(OOC: Only 8 years behind the ESA I think)

Energy Policy (doesnt apply until 1960, so excluded from above Budget)
Production Energy Requirements: 1.25 points (using natural gas, priority on Russia*)
Maintenance of other things: 2.75 (commerce, military, etc. oil priortity on Arab League members)

*To be replaced with nuclear ASAP

Suggestion for an addition to the embargo rules:

Reasoning and Background:

Nations who are neighbours that share a land border have fuzzy areas of economical production were goods and products cross the border both ways. This is all well and good, but when hostilities between two neighbouring nations flare up and/ or the borders are closed this can no longer happen and the border industry that once depended on co-operation from both sides ceases to exsist and so a small amount of domestic produstion is lost on both sides.

Gameplay

In game terms this means that if the borders* between two neighbouring counties are closed for whatever reason both nations have between 1 to 3** production centres damaged.
If the Border re-opens within two years, and the production centres on both sides have not already been repaired through paying points, they are automatically repaired for free. After this two year period however they are damaged permanently and must be repaired by paying 12 points.

*(This can be direct land border or over small straits of water such as the english channel)

**(The exact amount is dealt with on a case by case basis decided by conflict or economic moderators. Factors considered are the population, economic power and tech level)


What do you think, good?



Suggestion for a major economic addition involving food:

Reasoning and Background:
Since the new energy rules are being planned out I think it would be a good idea to introduce rules for food production so we can have a mechanic for man made faminine and food aid to poor countries.

Gameplay

All nations produce a number of food points which are used to feed you population. Depending on the tech level of you nation one food point feeds a different number of people.

At tech levels 1-6 one food point feeds ten million people
At tech level 7 one food point feeds seven and a half million people
At tech levels 8+ one food point feeds five million people

The number of food points your nation produces is at first decided by the moderators but afterwards can be modified. Food production can be increased by paying subsidies to help farmers, this will stimulate production, 18 points = +1 food point. There is however only a certian amount of food that each nation can produce from it's land and so each nation has an individual cap of food that it can produce which is decide by the moderator*. This cap can be increased by 60% by researching mass mechanized farming techniques at tech level 8 for 30 points over 5 years.

* (This cap is based on factors such as land area, climate, population and to a lesser degree industrialization)

At tech level 7.5 Ethanol fuel sources can be researched and some of your food production can be turned over to produce crops for ethanol production and so produce ethanol energy points which can be used to fuel commerce and military units.
6 points + ethanol fuel research can convert one food point to a ethanol fuel point.
Ethanol production is counted under the national food production cap.

Food can be traded and given as aid to other countries that do not produce enough to feed themselves. The base price of a food point is 1 point per 2 food points.


If a nation does not produce enough food to feed it's population it must get additional food through trade or aid otherwise it will suffer growth loss.

-1 growth for 5-25% of people without food
-2 growth for 26-50% of people without food
-3 growth for 51-80% of people without food
-4 growth for 80%+ of people without food


There is also a cumulative -1 negative growth for every year after the first for which people go without food.
If people are without food for more than three consecutive years you begin to lose population.


I could forsee these rules being introduced alongside the new energy rules in 1960.


Hope it isn't too complicated but I think these will add much more depth to the game.

I think these could work well, but we should also think about new members, who might be overwhelmed by the system.

EDIT: Perhaps the negative growth modifiers could be proportional.

-1% for 5-25% going hungry
-2 for 26-50%
-3 for 51-80%
-4 for 80%+


or something.

I think these could work well, but we should also think about new members, who might be overwhelmed by the system.

EDIT: Perhaps the negative growth modifiers could be proportional.

-1% for 5-25% going hungry
-2 for 26-50%
-3 for 51-80%
-4 for 80%+


or something.

I think we have to accept that our rules are already too complicated for most new players and we might as well focus on making them good for us.


Proportional negative growth is much better than my random numbers, added.

I figured that would work better because it works both for both big nations (50 million starving in China isnt as detrimental as 50 million starving in both other countries) and for small nations (-1% for the enitre nation starving isnt exactly realistic either)

Population:
17.5 million Australasian

Market Economy Peacetime:
Growth = 4% (3+1) of 118.5 is nothing (capped at no new Production Centers)
Production Centers:
Sydney 5; Melbourne 5; Adelaide 4; Canberra 3; Brisbane 4; Auckland 2; Perth 4; Wellington 3; Port Moresby 2; Ambon 1; Darwin 1 = 68
Resources:
New Guinea 2; Polynesia 1; New Caledonia 1 = 4
Commerce:
26 Merchant Marines; 2 National Airline; 2 International Airline = 47
Tourism:
1 Jet Terminal in Sydney; 1 Jet Terminal in Melbourne = 1.5 (population limits)


Budget for 1957: 68+4+47+1.5= 120.5 points

Social Spending:
Level 4 Social Services in Australia and New Zealand--7.5 points
Level 4 Social Services to Islands and New Guinea--4 points
11.5 Points Spent

Military Upkeep:
4 Cruisers--2 points
1 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup--2 points
15 Subs (3 units)--1.5 point
20 Destroyers (4 units)--1 point
2 Patrol/Escort groups--.5 points
6 Pilots at Elite Level--3 points
2 Pilots at Average Level--Free
HQ Unit--1 point
4 Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--2 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (highly trained)--1.5 points
2 Light Marine Brigades (highly trained)--1 point
2 Airborne Brigade (highly trained)--1 point
1 Fighter Bomber--0.5 points
1 Air Transport--0.25 points
1 Transport Helicopter--0.25 points
5 Gen. 3 jet fighters--5 points
22.5 Points Spent

Military Spending:
Upkeep of Intelligence Agency--5 points
4 F4C Phantom Fighter Wings--12 points
ICBM research--24 points (finished)
Contribution to Expansion of missile testing ground near Townsville and donation to US space program--10 points
1 Destroyer Unit--5 points
56 Points Spent

Domestic Builds:
Investment in Domestic Electronics Agency (year 5)--5 points
Investment in East Timor Infastructure and Social Services--4 points
Secret: Set up of networks by AIA in East Timor in favor of union with Australia--4 points
Secret: Foundation of AIA cells in Malyasia and Indonesia--2 point each (4 pts)
1 Domestic Airline--5 points
22 Points Spent

International Expenditures
Encouragement of Brazilian Immigration--3 points
3 points spent

Reserve Points
Energy Expenditures and Intel Operations--5 points

11.5 + 22.5 + 56 + 22 + 3 + 5.5 = 120.5 Points Spent

Australian Commerce Breakdown
47 Economic Points
USA 8; Britain 6; South Africa 5; China 5; Pakistan 3; USEA 3; Korea 3; FNS 3; Philippines 1; Germany 2; Japan 2; Indonesia 2; Malyasia 2; Dispersed 2 (multiple nations receive fractions of points, specifically industrialized Europe)

Advancing to Tech Level 7.5 Benchmark:
Blue Text Implies Achievement of Requirement:

1. Level 3+ social spending for at least 10 years
2. Has reached at least 75% of economic productivity maximum for at least 5 years (year 4 of 5)
3. Created a communications satellite network alone or be paying a portion of the cost of one.
4. Has the ability to build nuclear power plants.
5. Has an airline and tourist industry.
*Has invested in a home-grown electronics industry (year 5 of 5)
-------------------------------------------------------
Enercy Calculations (Practice for 1960)
Energy Needed:
--Production: 4
--Commerce: 3
--Military: 1

Energy Avaliable:
--1 Oil, 3 Natural Gas, 8 Coal

Energy Imported:
--3 Oil (Indonesia and Malyasia?)

I'm getting more confused and overwhelmed here.

First, we aren't supposed to start using the pollution effects and rules until 1960, correct?

Second, the food stuff seems a little complicated- hell, adding the pollution stuff is complicated, in addition to the energy rules. Now we're thinking of adding even more complexity, namely the food and border economy stuff?

There's a point when things get too complicated and detract from the supposed fun of the game when people have to figure out like 10 - 15 different economic / production stuff for their nations (industry, resources, food, military, commerce, population, and so on).

In all honesty, if things get more complicated than this, we will *REQUIRE* a computer program just to keep track of our nation stuff.

---------------------------

So I'm willing to go with the pollution stuff, but thats kind of pushing it as far as "complexity" goes. I'm aganist any more additions to the economic system as it only gets more complex as well as becoming harder and harder to figure out and keep track of.

I can see an addition to the economic system later in the future, and thats when we really start space stuff like space colonies or asteroid mining or stuff like that which probably won't happen for 50 - 100 more game years. I'll go with that as its necessary (the space economy) later, but we don't need any more complications on Earth economic stuff right now.

Just my honest 2 cents.

I understand your sentiments Sharina, but the way I see it these sugestions do not add much more complexity to the game then there already is.


The border industry thing was already in force in one form or another (USEA-Siam hostilties being an example) I have just solidified it into something everybody can understand. It won't effect anybody unless the borders are closed and then a mod will tell you about it.


The food rules are a little less easy to justify, but I believe it is a needed addition to the game, it will help with the mad rush to produce ethanol that everybody is going to do once they hit tech level 7.5.
As for it's complexity it is no more so than the energy rules (probably a bit simpler in my opinion), while it allows us far greater realism than we have had before.
The only things you will have to keep track off are the figures the mods give you when they implement it and any additions that you make later, which can be done with a simple MS notepad document.
All you have to do is post it up each weak with your economic build and make sure your demand equals your production/ import.

If it helps think the food rules as an extension of the energy rules but instead dealing with you population instead of commerce, military and production centers.



Anyway in the intrest of making things clear I have another suggestion:

Clarification of proposed energy rules:

Reasoning and Background:

Some nations may want to expand their energy production, here are some concreted and clarified rules for doing so.

Gameplay

Energy production may be expanded by providing subsidies to that sector of industry to stimulate growth.

24 points provides one point of any energy resource provided that your country contains that resource within it's control.

Natural Gas, Oil and Hydroelectricty (Ethanol is dealt with under food) all will have caps that you can reach on how much of each of these resources your country can produce. These caps are determined by moderators.

German Build 1958
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: National Effort 1% +1% EEC
Production: 139, 6 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 4 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 5 Hannover, 9 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 4 Saarbrucken, 4 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

Regular Spending: 417 Industry+6 Nuke Power+53 Commerce+9 tourist+10 Points Scandic Compensation=495 points

Maintenance (121):
*reserve* 28 Highly Trained Infantry Divisions-21
6 Elite Mechanized Inf-6
6 Elite Armored-6
8 Special Forces Paratrooper-8
14 Elite Mech Flak-14
4 Elite Mech Artillery-4

3 HQ-3

35 Elite Pilots-17.5
5 regular Pilots-free

4 Arado Ar 232-1 point
6 Do 337-3
18 TA200-9 points
11 BAC Lightning-11
3 M107-3

3 Fleet Carrier Battlegroup-6 points

3 Attack Submarine-1.5

2 Transport Groups-.5

80 Coastal Patrol Boats (2 groups)-.5
1 Frigate Flotilla-.25
20 Corvettes (1 group)-.25

Intelligence Agency-5 points

Social Spending (44):
Level 4 for 88 Million-44 points

Civilian Builds (243):

Repair 3 of Kiel's Industry-36 points

2 Nuclear Power Plants-48 points

Converting 1 Coal to 1 Oil-12 points

Space Plane Research-12 points (Year 3/4)

Spy Satellite Network-6 points
Improved Spy Satellite Network Research-12 points

Improved Communications Satellite Network-6 points

ESA Research-4 points
ESA Missions-20 points
ESA Manned Orbital Labratory-24 points

ECC Nuclear Research-6 points

2% growth-5 factories (1 repair Kiel)

15 points for to Arab Federation
20 points to Arab League
11 points to Kurdistan

Military Builds (122):

2 points to KND

2 Special Forces Light Infantry-6 points
2 Cargo Helicopters-4 points
2 Mechanized Infantry Divisions-8 points
4 Armored Divisions-20 points

20 TA 202-60 points

1 Nuclear Powered Heavy Carrier battlegroup-10 Points (year 1/4)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

German Build 1959
Population: 88 Million
Tech Level: 7.5
Economic Type: Market
Growth: Regular Spending 3% +1% EEC
Production: 148, 2 oil points, 8 Nuclear Power, 9 tourist (1 Berlin, 1 Vienna, 2 Hamburg, 1 Danzig, 1 Rhine Area, 1 Munich, 1 Leipzig, 1 Konigsburg), 1 national airline, 3 international airlines, 32 shipping units (5 surplus), Improved Communications Satellite Network
5 Dortmund, 5 Essen, 5 Düsseldorf, 5 Köln, 5 Bonn, 5 Bremen, 10 Hamburg, 4(1) Kiel, 5 Hannover, 4 Berlin, 4 Nuremburg, 5 Frankfurt, 4 Mainz, 4 Mannheim, 5 Leipzig, 5 Dresden, 5 Karlsruhe, 5 Saarbrucken, 5 Stuttgart, 8 Munich, 5 Salzburg, 5 Vienna, 4 Karlsbad, 5 Stettin, 5 Danzig, 5 Konigsburg, 5 Breslau, 4 Posen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Costs 1958 (Practace)

Energy Needed-22
Military-5
Production-14
Commerce-3

Energy Available-15
Nuclear Power-6
Coal-2
Hydroelectric-2
Natural Gas-2
Oil-3

Energy Imported-7
Oil-7 (From Saudi Arabia)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trade Partners

40 Points

Britain-6
China-5
United States-3
Egypt-2
Syria-2
Arabia-3
France-1
Brazil-3
FNS-2
Australia-2
South Africa-4
Nigeria-2
Scandic Union-3
Other-2

Parthini']German Build 1958
-snip-


Er.. Parthini, it isn't even 1957 yet....

Er.. Parthini, it isn't even 1957 yet....

I have AP tests next week, and I have time now. Who says I can't plan ahead :)

China, the problem with Ethanol fuel is, there isn't enough land to grow it on. Your going to have trouble feeding yourself, because even though you've industrialized early,(Only a decade or two at that) your still going to easily break the 1 billion mark with your population, and unless you try to do what China did in real, limiting the number of children people can have, then you will keep on going up after that. Even though you have more base points than America exc exc, you aren't even at half your potential with 370 prod centers or whatever you have, you aren't at that industrial level we see in Europe and America that is slashing birth rates and so you will need lots of food.

Even if growth was stopped you couldn't produce enough Ethanol, switching gasoline with Ethanol is impractical simply because it would take way to much land to grow enough Ethanol, and while China is big and you do have lots of land, your farming is maxed out, China doesn't have extra farmland to spare. Hell, even the shitty hillsides are terraced out and farmed because there isn't any other land to get. Now granted you could produce massive amounts of Ethanol, it would not be enough at all to phase out gasoline usage. If you put enough effort into it you will be able to cut down gasoline usage in China a lot, but you will still be dependant on gasoline, even more so as your economy expands and your people get more afluent and start buying more and more things.

As for solar power, you could build them up in the Gobi Desert, but as withethanol, you will still need ther sources of energy like natural gas and oil. Solar panels aren't very efficient at all and so you would need very large fields, granted you have the room to build some large fields in the Gobi, but you have to take into acount sandstorms and sand dunes which move alot and will cause lots of damage to your solar panels.

Modern day China, right now in rl, uses a lot of energy, they're projected to overtake America by 2010 or 2015(Can't remember, I did a report on Chinese Energy usage a a few months ago so the exact dates are kinda foggy). The way things are going here, you've probaly already passed up America in energy usage. With that fact going, you ned to realize that in rl China the grand majority of energy comes from coal, I believe it was something like 60 some%.(The biggest killer in China is respiritory disease caused by coal pollution actually) Even with that China still uses very large amounts of other energy sources, now if you cut out coal in E20 and focus on other sources, and you keep on industrializing, solar and wind power will not cover you. You are simply to big and you only have so much extra land to go around. Unless you make some drastic moves, China will be dependant on oil, granted they might not be depenmdant as they are in real or as other nations are, but they will be dependant to an extent.

All right, allow me to address your points.

First, GB said that any nation who does Level 3 social spending will be able to issue population control like RL China does.

Second, my China won't hit the 1 billion mark for 40 - 50 more years, given that approximately 50 - 60 million Chinese died during WW-3 and another 50 million died from the Influzena Epidemic after WW-2. E20 China will probably have 550 - 600 million people by 1960, not 700 million like the RL one. Therefore, Chinese population growth / levels are considerably lower than in RL.

Third, China is roughly the same technological level as the USA and UK, having caught up. Not only that, but China has parity with the US and UK in terms of electronics which means China will have computers and such just as good as USA and UK. That means more efficient farming and such, with computer-aided mechanization and similiar hi-tech farming methods that RL USA and UK employs. Food productivity should be higher than RL China enjoys (in addition to a substantially lower population).

Fourth, I do realize that China probably won't be able to eliminate gasoline fully until advanced energy stuff like fusion power, hydrogen fuel cells, electrical cars, etc. Every little bit of reduction in gasoline usage will allow China's gas / oil reserves to last longer, hopefully long enough to see alternative energy sources become able to replace gas / oil 100%, or at least until synthetic oil can be developed (man-made oil and gas). As for coal, I do know that there are ways to reduce coal pollution by 90% - 95% (with scrubbers, vaporization, gas distillers, etc.) but RL Commie China (and even RL USA) doesn't have the incentive nor the desire to implement these technologies.

Here's a few of these technologies I speak of...

http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr19950621-01

http://minerals.cr.usgs.gov/gips/na/0prevent.htm

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/pollution/fpd/prevention/6002-e.html

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/common-sense-on-climate-change-solution-2-modernize-americas-electricity-system.html

So combine clean coal (with these technologies in the links), ethanol fuel, several solar farms, wind turbine farms in the Himalayas, hydroelectric power dams (not 3 Gorges sized, but rather dozens of small ones to minimize enviromental impact), and eventually man-made oil + coal and electric cars, hydrogen fuel cell tech, fusion power, etc. China will have all of its energy needs met.

China in our timeline will have huge incentive and *NECESSITY* to develop fusion power, hydrogen fuel cell tech, efficient electric cars, clean coal, cheap solar power, etc... far more than RL China and RL USA does, considering that E20 China will have an economy several times the size of RL USA by the time 2000 - 2010 rolls around in E20. So I can see E20 China developing clean energy sources considerably earlier than today's RL Earth nations do, purely out of necessity and need for survival.

First of all i think it would be a great idea to implement both ideas.

Suggestion for a major economic addition involving food:

All nations produce a number of food points which are used to feed you population. Depending on the tech level of you nation one food point feeds a different number of people.

At tech levels 1-6 one food point feeds ten million people
At tech level 7 one food point feeds seven and a half million people
At tech levels 8+ one food point feeds five million people



i think you got it backwards shouldnt it be,

At tech levels 1-6 one food point feeds 5 million people
At tech level 7 one food point feeds seven and a half million people
At tech levels 8+ one food point feeds ten million people

because as time goes on and tech gets better, farming would become more efficient and therefor be able to feed more people with less effort.

i think thats right

I have to side with Sharina on this one; you guys are making this way too complicated. I joined E20 to have fun, not to sit around calculating my countries growth rates. I still don't have down the energy and pollution (and no ones explanations have helped me), and now you guys want to lump on another set of restrictions? I'm sorry, but there's only so much I can take.

First of all i think it would be a great idea to implement both ideas.


i think you got it backwards shouldnt it be,

At tech levels 1-6 one food point feeds 5 million people
At tech level 7 one food point feeds seven and a half million people
At tech levels 8+ one food point feeds ten million people

because as time goes on and tech gets better, farming would become more efficient and therefor be able to feed more people with less effort.

i think thats right

It is the way round that it is because as farming techniques become more effecient (Mass Mechanized Farming) more food can be potentially produced on less land, which can therefore feed more people however subsidies still have to be paid to get more food to actually be produced.
The reason it goes down at each tech level is because as people get richer they get greedier and want more food or more exotic food that takes up more space to grow and produce.

I think its just cuz you guys don't want to have to deal with feeding 500+ million people :D

Parthini']I think its just cuz you guys don't want to have to deal with feeding 500+ million people :D

That is a consideration. However, I really am against more complications (hell, when we changed the growth rates I was against it).

I have to side with Sharina on this one; you guys are making this way too complicated. I joined E20 to have fun, not to sit around calculating my countries growth rates. I still don't have down the energy and pollution (and no ones explanations have helped me), and now you guys want to lump on another set of restrictions? I'm sorry, but there's only so much I can take.

And I have to side with TLS. Our pursuit of realism should be a means to the end (of having a good RP), not the end in itself (trying to be as accurate as possible).

There is generally a tradeoff between complexity and enjoyability. Different people may want different levels of realism, and that is fine, though we should stick with what the average is. The threshold for tolerance may be different for different people, but mine has been just about reached.

AARRGGHH this keeps getting more and more complicated. I'm with TLS on this as well

I have to side with Sharina on this one; you guys are making this way too complicated. I joined E20 to have fun, not to sit around calculating my countries growth rates. I still don't have down the energy and pollution (and no ones explanations have helped me), and now you guys want to lump on another set of restrictions? I'm sorry, but there's only so much I can take.

Well I can try and explain it so you will understand.

With the energy your nation produces a set number of different Energy resources (Hydro, Nuclear, Natural Gas, Coal or Oil) Each indvidual resource is worth 1 energy point.

Pakistan has the following resources:
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1

Each energy point can support 20 production points*, commerce points or points of military maintenance. However commerce and military maintenance can only be supplied by oil energy points.

Pakistan has:
47 commerce points, 42 production points, 50 military maintenance points
This comes to a total of 139

You have 12 coal and one natural gas which together can supply 260 production points with energy. Since you only have 47 this leaves you with a surplus of 10 coal resource points that you can sell to someone else at 1 economic point per 2 Coal or Natural Gas resource points**.

You have 2 oil points which means you can fuel 40 points worth of commerce or economic units. Since you have 92 this leaves you with a defecit of 3 oil resource points which you will need to buy off someone else for the price of 1 economic point for 1 oil resource point

*(not Production centres but that actual amount of points they provide)

**(This could mean 5 extra points income each year if you can find someone to buy them)




The pollution rules are a bit harder but the basics of it is that each nation has a population density, the higher the population density the more pollution you have and pollution inhibits growth. Pakistan has a population density of 336.

The pollution rules state that:
if your nation has a PD of 100 or less you have no growth reduction
if your nation has a PD of between 101 and 200, you have -1% growth
if your nation has a PD of between 201 and 301, you have -2% growth
anything higher has -3% growth

This means you have -3% growth

To reduce this, at tech level 7.5 you can research pollution control (72 points over 6 years) which will reduce this down to -2% growth. There will be further pollution reduction research in the future.


Pollution is also caused by other things such as domestic production hydroelectricty and coal;

For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

For every 300 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

These do not affect you yet because you do not meet any of the conditions.


Finally, Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution (growth that takes away production centres will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors. After 10 years, a nation with negative growth because of pollution will start suffering population losses.


For my food suggestion it helps too think of it as an extension of the energy rules and works in pretty much the same way.

If there is anything in there you would like clarifying further please ask.

And I have to side with TLS. Our pursuit of realism should be a means to the end (of having a good RP), not the end in itself (trying to be as accurate as possible).

There is generally a tradeoff between complexity and enjoyability. Different people may want different levels of realism, and that is fine, though we should stick with what the average is. The threshold for tolerance may be different for different people, but mine has been just about reached.

I know when you look at all those words it does seem very complicated, but I think you guys are just getting scared of something new and freaking out.
To be honest this is just an extension for the GB's energy rules and is only very slightly more complicated than them (The addition of growth penalties if you don't have enough food).

If we are going to have the energy and pollution stuff (Pollution is much more complicated than this) we might as well have this because it supports the energy rules and fills a gap that having the energy rules would leave.


(Anyway TLS you would probably be having surplus food and be selling it to the poor mid east nations who don't produce enough)

I know when you look at all those words it does seem very complicated, but I think you guys are just getting scared of something new and freaking out.
To be honest this is just an extension for the GB's energy rules and is only very slightly more complicated than them (The addition of growth penalties if you don't have enough food).

If we are going to have the energy and pollution stuff (Pollution is much more complicated than this) we might as well have this because it supports the energy rules and fills a gap that having the energy rules would leave.


(Anyway TLS you would probably be having surplus food and be selling it to the poor mid east nations who don't produce enough)

yeah, i know. And looking at the rules again they arent as bad as I feared. It is just the principle of the thing I guess. Is there ever going to be a stopping point?

yeah, i know. And looking at the rules again they arent as bad as I feared. It is just the principle of the thing I guess. Is there ever going to be a stopping point?

I don't know, but I would assume so and I would think we are very close to it, but not quite there yet.

I don't know, but I would assume so and I would think we are very close to it, but not quite there yet.

fair enough.

Props on the new rules by the way. They really arent that bad. Just an overreaction on my part. I'll probably turn out really ahead with my miniscule population and massive food production.

I think the rules are getting a little out of hand, IMHO.

First, we didn't have this economic system pre-1920's in E20, then this system was implemented during our WW-2. This was a major change and seemed to work out decently. Then we added "economic modes" like peacetime, cuts, national effort, etc. during the later parts of WW-2.

2. Then we added social services in the 1930's (and their effects).

3. After that, we started with oil points and commerce and natural growth rates.

4. Then the economics got more complicated with WW-3, with oil and nuclear points, as well as many different military units.

5. Post-WW-3, we added all these new things like research, nuclear tech, satellite tech, electronics, population management, etc.

6. We introduced an Economic Depression (-1% growth) and Economic Blocs (+1% growth).

7. Fast Forward to the 1950's. We now are looking at not only one but three major additions of the economic system. Energy, Pollution, and Food. Not to mention these other economic ideas like Border Economy and such.

What's next? City micro-management a-la SimCity? Introduction of province economics (post builds and income for each province within a nation, or state of the US)? Rules regarding garbage and landfills? Income or penalties of transportation networks (economics of traffic jams or railroad traffic)? Weather impacts on economy (earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.)? And so on.

-----------------------------------------

I feel that the energy and pollution is pushing it, not because of the concept itself (which is reasonable- the concept, that is), but the "tacked on" complexity that ensues. Food and Border Economy and stuff like that is just about ready to put me over the top (as it is for TLS, Cylea, and others).

I and probably most of the other E20'ers were happy with just keeping track of our economies on a *SIMPLE* scale- mainly the production (income), research projects, social services, and military maintainence. Now we're looking at energy resources, pollution factors, food sources, amounts of resources and food farming, etc.

I believe that if we keep on this track we're currently on, E20 will end up becoming a pure number-crunching game. I don't want E20 to end up like that, because we didn't sign up on E20 to play a number-crunching game. If anything, E20's supposed to be fun and educational (at times), not a math game. That's what high school or college is for (math), and E20 is supposed to be something fun to do *AWAY* from school or college stuff (except the history thing).

I do appreciate the effort that Galveston Bay puts into figuring out how to make these economic models work, especially the energy resources, nuclear stuff, and military equipment (and combat rules). Its just that there comes a point where the economics becomes too complex or "heady", reducing the enjoyment of E20 as people get headaches trying to figure out what does what, and which goes where with the growing economic system.

I just want to RP and do more stuff like the Germany / SU situation, Arabia situation, and Darwin Talks instead of racking my brain trying to figure the perfect economic build for the current (or upcoming) year or trying to keep track of 10 different economic stuff all at once and making sure they all "jive" or line up. I'm sure other E20'ers share the same sentiment.

One saying comes to mind...

"Too much of something can be a bad thing."

I think the rules are getting a little out of hand, IMHO.

-snip-

"Too much of something can be a bad thing."


As I said I completly understand how you feel but I think it sort of an overeaction. In my opinion we are at about the limit of complexity.
However I must stress the food and border economy rules and no more complexity that the energy and pollution has already.

The border economy as I said has been in use for a while, the main example cited was the USEA - Siam hostilities in which I lost two production points for the duration but got them back afterwards. All I have done is set down some concrete rule that work for it's use.

As for food, it is basically just GB's energy rule but altered to service population.

After these I can see no more improvements that we could realistically do without going over the top. The examples you cited where all things that I cannot ever see happening at all (Except maybe for weather, we could possibly do that, but it would have to be very simplified ).

You say that the recent improvements are forcing you to do more number crunching which is slightly true but not by much. What they are really there for is to give everybody some resources to fight and squabble over. Something concrete in our rules.

With these rules we can have trade wars over the price of oil, brawls between small african countries over fertile food producing land or large superpower blocks circling each other and enaging in secet back room deals over valuable resources and strategic positions. They will expand the scope of our play not narrow it.

That is what I signed up for and if once in a while I have to break out my calculator or make a new MS notepad document then so be it.
Getting the system set up is the hardest part but after that it will be easy.

Ato-Sara has a point. The energy and pollution rules are practically in place anyway and seem reasonable enough, while the food add-on is required to balance out mass ethanol production.

But seriously, line drawn there. Weather is largely historical (unless you want to get all butterfly effectish with the extra heat we have pumped into the atmosphere from nukes and industrialization) but any in game effects of that could be one time mod rulings. For example--Darwin is going to get hit in 1974 by a hurricane that will wipe the city off the map. Displeased, I am, but it should be worth mentioning in E20.

These rules are good. But no more.

These rules are good. But no more.

Aeconded. As Assistant Economic Mod, I'm inclined to leave to leave the current rules as they stand (with food, energy and pollution rules attached), and leave big weather events to one time mod actions (like Hurricane Andrew, or the Hilo Tsunami).

Well I can try and explain it so you will understand.

With the energy your nation produces a set number of different Energy resources (Hydro, Nuclear, Natural Gas, Coal or Oil) Each indvidual resource is worth 1 energy point.

Pakistan has the following resources:
Coal 12, Oil 2, Natural gas 1

Each energy point can support 20 production points*, commerce points or points of military maintenance. However commerce and military maintenance can only be supplied by oil energy points.

Pakistan has:
47 commerce points, 42 production points, 50 military maintenance points
This comes to a total of 139

You have 12 coal and one natural gas which together can supply 260 production points with energy. Since you only have 47 this leaves you with a surplus of 10 coal resource points that you can sell to someone else at 1 economic point per 2 Coal or Natural Gas resource points**.

You have 2 oil points which means you can fuel 40 points worth of commerce or economic units. Since you have 92 this leaves you with a defecit of 3 oil resource points which you will need to buy off someone else for the price of 1 economic point for 1 oil resource point

*(not Production centres but that actual amount of points they provide)

**(This could mean 5 extra points income each year if you can find someone to buy them)




The pollution rules are a bit harder but the basics of it is that each nation has a population density, the higher the population density the more pollution you have and pollution inhibits growth. Pakistan has a population density of 336.

The pollution rules state that:
if your nation has a PD of 100 or less you have no growth reduction
if your nation has a PD of between 101 and 200, you have -1% growth
if your nation has a PD of between 201 and 301, you have -2% growth
anything higher has -3% growth

This means you have -3% growth

To reduce this, at tech level 7.5 you can research pollution control (72 points over 6 years) which will reduce this down to -2% growth. There will be further pollution reduction research in the future.


Pollution is also caused by other things such as domestic production hydroelectricty and coal;

For every 150 points of hydroelectric power or 75 points of coal power that you use, add another -1% to growth.

For every 300 points of domestic production, add another -1% to growth.

These do not affect you yet because you do not meet any of the conditions.


Finally, Nations that have negative growth caused by pollution (growth that takes away production centres will after 5 years begin adding negative effects to their neighbors. After 10 years, a nation with negative growth because of pollution will start suffering population losses.


For my food suggestion it helps too think of it as an extension of the energy rules and works in pretty much the same way.

If there is anything in there you would like clarifying further please ask.

Ok, so I need to sell my extra coal, but I need to buy more oil? Gotcha.

Also, I don't get the pollution minus growth thing. Is that negative population growth, or negative economic growth? Because if it's negative population growth, pollution could be just what I need :)

Aeconded. As Assistant Economic Mod, I'm inclined to leave to leave the current rules as they stand (with food, energy and pollution rules attached), and leave big weather events to one time mod actions (like Hurricane Andrew, or the Hilo Tsunami).

Those were the sort of weather effects I was talking about, large scale hurricanes, floods, earthquakes and droughts.

And as full Economic Mod, I agree with Cylea and ND.

Am I correct in understanding that the new rules (pollution, food, etc.) start in 1960?

And as full Economic Mod, I agree with Cylea and ND.

Am I correct in understanding that the new rules (pollution, food, etc.) start in 1960?

That sound right. Although lots of people were including them in '57 builds for practice.

we are going to need mods to go through and determine how many food points per region like was done for energy for this to work though.