NationStates Jolt Archive

Sure! I see no reason why not, I always wanted to have some of my characters vist Mckagan...

I'll make a thread later tonight.

I'm going to handle this RP correctly. I'm going to set forth an agenda and put enough pressure on EVERYONE to keep them there and talking.

Tanakis could be used for some humor...

I doubt he is very happy at what has happened in Torontia...

I'll make a thread later tonight.

I'm going to handle this RP correctly. I'm going to set forth an agenda and put enough pressure on EVERYONE to keep them there and talking.

I will post Amestria's request for a conference away from Torontia and at a neutral country now...

McKagan, even if Tanakis cannot do anything, then the MCID can. Perhaps they should contact RB to help out their operations... ;)

If you notice, the MCID has had a strategic motion towards making the Torontian rebellion fall in on itself. Do you think the TPLA was beat? No, they could still fight. The MCID is dropping the insurgency so the Amestrians will have to remove troops; which is what they're working for anyway.

ICly we'd be willing to hold the conference in the capitol or send a delegation over.

Tanakis could be used for some humor...

I doubt he is very happy at what has happened in Torontia...

It was my dream to one day have him running a show on SRN called "The Dictator's Hour" where he yelled at countries and made prank calls. People are still looking for him; so I can't exactly do that. :lol:

ICly we'd be willing to hold the conference in the capitol or send a delegation over.

I doubt it'll be in the capitol, but that doesn't really matter. Our capitol isn't used for very much.

I doubt it'll be in the capitol, but that doesn't really matter. Our capitol isn't used for very much.

In Amestria, everything of political importance is in the Capital.

Amestria City, also called Central (located at the very center of the country).

Mckagan the Leafanistan video is a clear fake as it shows Amestrian troops where they never were...

IT SAYS THAT IN THE POST THAT IT WAS FILMED JUST HOURS PREVIOUS OFF SET AS A PART OF A INTELLIGENCE CAMPAIGN AGAINST YOU, READ THE ORIGINAL POST, HURRRRRRRR!

Besides I've done this kind of stuff before. Also Amestria is your currency publically traded?

Well the video is very clearly fake!

Yes the curreny is publically traded but the government has safeguards in place to prevent financial attack.

Xirnium, you have to make it more clear that the Main RP is still closed and that the spinoff is only for Diplomatic/Media posts... People are getting slightly confused!

The outcomes from what can happen once people get this news WON'T be closed though. If someone gets pissed because of this and wants to remove Amestria from power (be it in Torontia OR Amestria) then I don't see how Amestria can ignore it.

They can't just jump in on a whim, it has to be discussed! And the RP proper and Torontian conflict is still closed as was agreed.

Mckagan TG!

Well our evidence has just switched the Blame from a Amestria ordered execution, to a relutant nation being forced to carry out harsh orders by a government that they have no choice but to support.

Well our evidence has just switched the Blame from a Amestria ordered execution, to a relutant nation being forced to carry out harsh orders by a government that they have no choice but to support.
TLA, respond to my TG please.

Amestria denies any genocide happened (and even under the lossest of definitions no genocide happened so Amestria is telling the truth). They also deny any mass killings happened.

Also Amestria is your currency publically traded?

Leaf, are you thinking what I think you're thinking? If so, I'll buy the beer this time. :p

Hal, this question just bumped into my head. What are the chances of the DIH engaging the IEY and coming out on top, should the High Council somehow find out that Halberdgardia is backing the insurgency?

Leaf, are you thinking what I think you're thinking? If so, I'll buy the beer this time. :p

I want the pork-n-beans

Please.

Hal, this question just bumped into my head. What are the chances of the DIH engaging the IEY and coming out on top, should the High Council somehow find out that Halberdgardia is backing the insurgency?

Halberdgardia has the strategic ability to defeat ANYONE on this game. That's how well he has diplomatically established himself.

OOC: But Yallak, as much strength he has, is not bad a strategist from what I've seen. But McKagan, I'll pay a good TON of PLATINUM to see him outsmart Automagfreek. Not only AMF has the brawn, but he has an insane amount of brain.

OOC: But Yallak, as much strength he has, is not bad a strategist from what I've seen. But McKagan, I'll pay a good TON of PLATINUM to see him outsmart Automagfreek. Not only AMF has the brawn, but he has an insane amount of brain.

No, I don't mean Halberdgardia HIMSELF defeating a nation. Hal is a member of the SWC. These nations ALONE are more than capable of taking alot of people down. Hal ALSO has alliances with Sarzonia, Omz, and THAT group. If every single one of Hals allies came together in a war, he'd be unbeatable.

No, I don't mean Halberdgardia HIMSELF defeating a nation. Hal is a member of the SWC. These nations ALONE are more than capable of taking alot of people down. Hal ALSO has alliances with Sarzonia, Omz, and THAT group. If every single one of Hals allies came together in a war, he'd be unbeatable.
I know he does have dealings with the 'tier rpers', yes. But McKagan, doesn't Sarzonia have an IGNORE on you for some rp wrecking when you and Leafanistan were young little states? Can you please provide me the URL to that thread?

Sarzonia and I recently worked things out OOCly, and ICly are back to a neutral; I think.

Xirnium, you have to make it more clear that the Main RP is still closed and that the spinoff is only for Diplomatic/Media posts... People are getting slightly confused!

Who says they are getting confused? I haven't seen anyone try to jump into the "Liberation" thread.

By the way, Amestria, things are starting to look pretty bleak now that one of your own allies has pretty much admitted that you are killing prisoners. How will Amestria live with the stigma of being branded a liar?

Also, can I be in this conference as well? I'd like a chance to flesh out some characters.

Can you please inform me of what this is about?

Xirnium, I have posted at the war crimes thread. Now I wonder whether Amestria is willing to respond to Lin's official statement...

Also, can I be in this conference as well? I'd like a chance to flesh out some characters.

Yes; EVERYONE involved in this RP is REQUESTED to come.

Can you please inform me of what this is about?

To cut a long story short, Amestria has gotten its own little version of Iraq in Torontia (which it occupies) and is also gearing up for a major war with Saint Fedski (which occupies the East of Torontia).

The Amestrians have been murdering captured insurgents without trial and the evidence is starting to look pretty conclusive.

McKagan: Ok, cool. Must have missed that somewhere.

I'm making a new thread for the conference RIGHT NOW. It'll start out with working out the plans, but I just want to get it seperated.

Who says they are getting confused? I haven't seen anyone try to jump into the "Liberation" thread.

Can we take preemptive precautions then please...

By the way, Amestria, things are starting to look pretty bleak now that one of your own allies has pretty much admitted that you are killing prisoners. How will Amestria live with the stigma of being branded a liar?


As far as Amestria is concerned the evidence does not prove anything. The Lone Alliance is not an official ally, it is an unofficial ally (and only in BC and Canada)...

In addition, Torontia is not Iraq, quit using that metaphor. There is no insurgency in Western Torontia (anymore). It is more accurately described as a Korean standoff...

Maybe it isn't Iraq now, but it certainly was just a brief moment ago when you were commiting the atrocities.

As for what Amestria thinks of the evidence, that's hardly important. Only what the international community believes is important.

Torontia was not even Iraq then, the insurgency was small, lacked popular support, depended on aid from foreign powers, and was restricted to BC...

I would like to remind everyone that there have only been 300 confirmed corpses... out of a provincial population of 20 million.

I would like to remind everyone that there have only been 300 confirmed corpses... out of a provincial population of 20 million.

When the Allies discovered evidence of the Nazi attempts to exterminate European Jewry do you think they identified the corpses of all those killed? No, merely a fraction. Several of the many mass grave sites are more then enough to burn Amestria and expose their atrocities to the world.

When the Allies discovered evidence of the Nazi attempts to exterminate European Jewry do you think they identified the corpses of all those killed? No, merely a fraction. Several of the many mass grave sites are more then enough to burn Amestria and expose their atrocities to the world.

Do not even try to compare what happened in BC to the holocaust... We are talking about 5,000 (only 300 known about), not 5 and 1/2 million. That is very low and inaccurate to the extreme...

And the "evidence" is very thin...

Do not even try to compare what happened in BC to the holocaust... We are talking about 5,000 (only 300 known about), not 5 and 1/2 million. That is very low and inaccurate to the extreme...

And the "evidence" is very thin...

My comparison refers only to your faulty methodology, I never implied there was parity between the two atrocities. I suggest you read more carefully at what I write, and that is that we do not need to identify ever victim to prove an atrocity occured.

As for the numbers killed, even one is too many. Hundreds are obscene and 5,000 ranks it as a terrible crime against humanity.

Do not even try to compare what happened in BC to the holocaust... We are talking about 5,000 (only 300 known about), not 5 and 1/2 million. That is very low and inaccurate to the extreme...

And the "evidence" is very thin...

Don't take it so personally. The fact is, it doesn't have to be true. As long as it can make sense, the public buys it.

Well that tape Leaf. had is so clearly fake it undoubtedly hurts your case...

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461440)

That's really a placeholder for the thread; but please, start posting. This is a very important step for the Torontian RP.

My comparison refers only to your faulty methodology, I never implied there was parity between the two atrocities. I suggest you read more carefully at what I write, and that is that we do not need to identify ever victim to prove an atrocity occured.

As for the numbers killed, even one is too many. Hundreds are obscene and 5,000 ranks it as a terrible crime against humanity.

There is no proof any of them were killed by Amestria or the TPG, they could have been killed by the New Order, by the insurgents, criminals during the period of disorder, or by Foreign Agents...

The "order" never existed as far as Amestria is concerned and the only copy that exists in Amestrian hands is classified in a Central File cabinet...

Leaf.'s tape is very clearly fake for countless reasons...

I'm not sure whether Amestria would be willing to send a diplomat over, McKagan. Or have McKagan-Amestrian relations progressed enough from 'hostile-neutral' to 'good-good'?

I'm not sure whether Amestria would be willing to send a diplomat over, McKagan. Or have McKagan-Amestrian relations progressed enough from 'hostile-neutral' to 'good-good'?

Everyone missed the CODEX (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=460411) thread, I guess. Even though Amestria hasn't had time to respond; Basically CODEX aranged for a capture of Ira Gaines and is in the process of working with Amestria on the matter of chasing New Order combatants down. Because of this Amestrian-McKagan relations are at a neutral; and he told me OOCly we would. I want EVERYONE who is the least bit involved to be THERE. EVERYONE. This RP is getting dull and repetitive and this can perhaps give us new ground. I have an agenda made out for it.

Mckagan has an interest in Torontia and it has abandoned attempts at destabilization by insurgency (which failed utterly anyway). Amestria is suspicious of Mckagan but spurning Mckagans offer as a neutral meeting ground and freezing them out would accomplish nothing. Mckagan has an interest in demilitarizing Torontia…

Because of this Amestrian-McKagan relations are at a neutral; and he told me OOCly we would. I want EVERYONE who is the least bit involved to be THERE. EVERYONE. This RP is getting dull and repetitive and this can perhaps give us new ground. I have an agenda made out for it.

This RP is not getting dull and repetitive, so stop saying that. You are the only one who thinks so and you are now getting a big and important part (in the latest chapter, which is in no way like any previous chapters).

Mckagan has an interest in demilitarizing Torontia…

It's not even as much that as it seems. I just want a more peaceful Torontia. You'll see in the RP if we get it going. McKagan will be ALOT more involved in Torontia and everyone will be nice and happy WITHOUT conflict. Trust me; I know EXACTLY where i'm taking this.

It's not even as much that as it seems. I just want a more peaceful Torontia. You'll see in the RP if we get it going. McKagan will be ALOT more involved in Torontia and everyone will be nice and happy WITHOUT conflict. Trust me; I know EXACTLY where i'm taking this.

Rather interesting, Mckagan has gone from destabilizing Torontia to stabilizing it... Ironic...

Rather interesting, Mckagan has gone from destabilizing Torontia to stabilizing it... Ironic...

I changed goals. I've got it figured out.

I changed goals. I've got it figured out.

I assume the Mckagan leadership learned some valuable lessons in Torontia... The limits of covert forces in working towards geopolitical goals against established Military Forces.

No, the DART's weren't sent in to fight. The TPLA wasn't designed for a long term operation. If it was I wouldn't have had it surrender and I would have had AA systems that could take down more than a Predator. :)

In all seriousness, the McKagan government has had just ABOUT everything go its way in Torontia. The invasion helped establish our future presense.

Just an FYI, the DART's are ONLY there for recon and logistical support.

Otherwise you'd have lost 5000 soldiers because DART's are more trained than the MIMC grunts who cleaned you out the first time. :p

Now I wonder whether Amestria is willing to respond to Lin's official statement...
Amestria, it seems that you have overlooked my statement in the war-crimes thread. Can you please have the AOA respond to my Foreign Minister?

SEA how do you want me to respond?

How would you respond ICly. But if I were in the AOA's shoes, I'd better come out with a good apology, as there's quite a lot of momentum and denying it could result in some permanent damage....

As for your post, please be patient, I am still behind by four posts...

There is no proof any of them were killed by Amestria or the TPG, they could have been killed by the New Order, by the insurgents, criminals during the period of disorder, or by Foreign Agents...

The "order" never existed as far as Amestria is concerned and the only copy that exists in Amestrian hands is classified in a Central File cabinet...

Leaf.'s tape is very clearly fake for countless reasons...

Let me get this straight, a nation comes out naming mass grave sites in the Amestrian zone it says are from a Kahanistanian defector and provides an order detailing a policy to exterminate captured prisoners..... and your government's responce is going to be "someone else did it"?

Even when the Lone Alliance has virtually agreed that you did it? Even when McKagan provides a genuine DART video of it occuring (Leaf's tape may be faked, but McKagan's isn't, and most nations can seperate propaganda from fact)?

Not only that, but for whatever inexplicable reason you also continue to refuse to allow access to these thousands of prisoners. For the obvious reason that they are all dead and that opening the empty camps would probably give away your secret.

Good luck, but the Amestrian government's lies are starting to sound pitifully weak.

The video that Mckagan has is of the bombings, not of the actual executions... and the Leaf. video is fake...

The video that Mckagan has is of the bombings
Really? Well if you are right then I was misinformed OOCly, but there is still more then enough evidence for the international community to demand that you open your camps, and when you don't Amestria's guilt will be all too clear.

Amestria, are you thinking of ways to try and get back Yallak's support? And Xirnium, you have a telegram!

The TPG has always been public with the fact that those found guilty of treason would be hanged...

Thus there are no camps of convicted insurgents and rebels...

The TPG has always been public with the fact that those found guilty of treason would be hanged...

You did not try those 5,000 TPLA prisoners you murdered...

You did not try those 5,000 TPLA prisoners...

Those 5000 you mention never existed...

Not one scrap of paper exists about them...

Those 5000 you mention never existed...

Not one scrap of paper exists about them...

There are ashes of over 300 of them an an original order that any nation may examine for authenticity. You can fool your own government, but not the world.

There are ashes of over 300 of them an an original order that any nation may examine for authenticity. You can fool your own government, but not the world.

Amestria has no idea how those ashes got there... An investigation has been launched to determine what happened...

Amestria, if you think that Xirnium is bad enough, you have an old friend returning since the collapse of Torontia: Kenix Kil, Secretary of State during the Kanos Administration (First Presidential Administration of Halberdgardia), now President of the Democratic Imperium of Halberdgardia. Much more entertaining than Heather Gilda, and just as slick and efficient.
[OOC: And...cue the hurricane of shit hitting the fan. TAG for my government's first message regarding Torontia since our withdrawal of military forces way back when.]
And Xirnium, please respond to my TG.

Yes, Hal., the nation which unleashed the biological agent which killed tens of thousands in BC (although no one IC knows about it)... It would be interesting if he were to personally show up at the conference...

By the way 'officially' The Lone Alliance and Amestria are still enemies since the last public contact was about forcing the TLA to leave Torontia.

Much more entertaining than Heather Gilda,
Now you've just gone and offended me... ;)

I tell you what, Gilda will take on Lin in a debate any time.

By the way Xirnium, the "order" lacks a signature and there is no record of it having ever been issued by the AOA (minus the classified records in Central). That "order" proves nothing... there is no way to verify whether it is legitamate...

Anyway, the Amestria delegate to the conference will be Senior General of the Armies Aaron Bradley, the highest ranking Amestrian Military Officer.

By the way Xirnium, the "order" lacks a signature and there is no record of it having ever been issued by the AOA (minus the classified records in Central). That "order" proves nothing... there is no way of verify whether it is legitamate...

I find it depressing that the Kahanistanians would agree to the policy of executing prisoners based on an unsigned, untraceable, unverifiable order that came from nowhere...

Amestria, TG.

So, have my defectors been taken to Eastern Torontia yet? The last I saw was they boarded a SF chopper... of course, I'll get back in when one of the rescuers RP's speaking to the defector.

Kahanistan, TG...

Now you've just gone and offended me... ;)

I tell you what, Gilda will take on Lin in a debate any time.
No offense Xirnium. The reason why I feel that Kenix Kil is more entertaining is because Gilda doesn't seem to radiate as much sarcasm Kenix Kil does in her tone of voice. Want me to dig up some of Halberdgardia's posts?

SEA, who will be on your delegation to Mckagan?

Why do you ask?

Amestria and Kahanistan have both posted their delegations on the conference thread and since SEA seems to believe so much in soft power... May I assume your Prime Minister will be attending...?

No. He has over things to take care of at home. A low profile delegation, most likely, but approved by Lin.

Saint Fedski, I was wondering if you would be willing to delay the Sniper County raids on Western Torontia for the following IC and OOC reasons.

IC reasons

1. SF has been invited to a major Conference on Torontia, which could very well decide the matter, and it does not seem a good time to restart military action in Torontia...

2. SF raiding Western Torontia will make them look bad at a time they would want to conserve their good image.


OOC reasons

1. I feel I do not have the time to RP a raid and a detailed diplomatic conference + everything else... I already have alot on my plate as it is, a raid would break the chamels back...

2. I would like to slow things down a bit to a more relaxed pace...

3. You promised OOC a conference before any return to conflict after the cease-fire and I am holding you to that.

So I was wondering if you could just delay the raid (have the plane turned around) and wait to see what happens at the conference (whether it succeeds or fails)...

Link to conference:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461440

since SEA seems to believe so much in soft power...
I would have thought that you, of all people, Amestria would have learnt how devastatingly effective "soft power", or rather politics, can be. ;)

Want me to dig up some of Halberdgardia's posts?
Sure, why not, it's always good to read quality RPs.

I would have thought that you, of all people, Amestria would have learnt how devastatingly effective "soft power", or rather politics, can be. ;)


I was not being negative...

Here's a sample. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8924979&postcount=344) Willink, former member-state of the Saharistan War Coalition (I'm sure by now you have read the article on the Saharistan War on the NSWiki, haven't you, so you know who he is and why he is NEVER going to beat anyone on NS), believes this to be the best post in the entire II.

Hal is good at making his leaders seem hilarious. I just now got into THAT game though. Most of the time when I do it people call it "insulting McKagan diplomacy."

Hey, I was thinking this morning; what would you guys do if LOU BRYANT won the next election in McKagan and was PRESIDENT?

Would that get me invaded?

1. SF has been invited to a major Conference on Torontia, which could very well decide the matter, and it does not seem a good time to restart military action in Torontia...
You seem to misunderstand the whole special lforces thing. SAINT FEDSKI HAS NO IC CONNECTION WITH THE "TERRORISTS" THAT ARE CUASING SHIT IN YOUR COUNTRY.

2. SF raiding Western Torontia will make them look bad at a time they would want to conserve their good image.
SAINT FEDSKI IS NOT RAIDING ANYTHING SO THEREFORE CAN'T LOSE WHATEVER "GOOD IMAGE" IT HAS. Now, how many more Telegrams will you send me asking this or telling me about the conference? I CAN READ THE FORUMS. I don't need six telegrams telling me what I read here.

You promised OOC a conference before any return to conflict after the cease-fire and I am holding you to that
That's fine. But by the time my delegation, however powerful it may be arrives, the raids will have already been conducted.

So I was wondering if you could just delay the raid (have the plane turned around) and wait to see what happens at the conference (whether it succeeds or fails)...
Raid goes as planned. Results will effect the conference, greatly.

This conference isn't going to be like all the others. If a nation walks away from this, it will diplomatically and politically kill them.

Hal is good at making his leaders seem hilarious. I just now got into THAT game though. Most of the time when I do it people call it "insulting McKagan diplomacy."

Hey, I was thinking this morning; what would you guys do if LOU BRYANT won the next election in McKagan and was PRESIDENT?

Would that get me invaded?
My government officially be neutral. Privately, the Neo Administration would be ROFLMAO as Bryant turns McKagan into a Left-Wing Utopia with an Imploded economy rating.

My government officially be neutral. Privately, the Neo Administration would be ROFLMAO as Bryant turns McKagan into a Left-Wing Utopia with an Imploded economy rating.

The McKagan Economy is so strong right now because of our slow yet steady expansion that a single Administration couldn't damage it. We've moved away from an entirely industry driven base, but not to a point that we can't build during a time of war.

McKagan really couldn't be any more liberal, either.

Oh. But would he make your civil liberties rating go up to 'Superb' and political freedoms the same rating?

You seem to misunderstand the whole special lforces thing. SAINT FEDSKI HAS NO IC CONNECTION WITH THE "TERRORISTS" THAT ARE CUASING SHIT IN YOUR COUNTRY.

SAINT FEDSKI IS NOT RAIDING ANYTHING SO THEREFORE CAN'T LOSE WHATEVER "GOOD IMAGE" IT HAS.



Bullshit, it is and only can be SF that conducts the raids. There are no insurgent groups in WT (even in BC) and if SF aircraft crosses into WT airspace and things start blowing it up it is very clear what is going on... You are also assuming the raids are successful and no one is captured and confesses...

SF will get the credit and blame for what is its very obvious involvement!

Besides, I was also asking for an OOC favor...

Raid goes as planned. Results will effect the conference, greatly.

How? All it will do is create a few more corpses.

Oh. But would he make your civil liberties rating go up to 'Superb' and political freedoms the same rating?

Civil Liberties: Yes.

Political Freedoms: No.

The McKagan Liberal Party (MLP) is fighting the last few remnants of organized religion in McKagan. So if he gained power, he would probably make it as tough as possible for them to REGAIN power. Then again, there hasn't been a conservative president in McKagan for.... a LONG time.

SEA what is this about your Leader being under attack in a Foreign country?

Got that. BTW, McKagan, check this thread out (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461235). I managed to find H&K a way in after all. I shall enjoy watching Amestrian RL US-tech stuff get 0wned by the Lu-45 Hawk Air Superiority Fighter (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9708782&postcount=533) and the ships of Portland Iron Works... ;)

Hey, I was thinking this morning; what would you guys do if LOU BRYANT won the next election in McKagan and was PRESIDENT?

Would that get me invaded?

The Amestrian Ambassador would go to personally congratulate him, then beat him to death with a frying pan...

Got that. BTW, McKagan, check this thread out (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461235). I managed to find H&K a way in after all. I shall enjoy watching Amestrian RL US-tech stuff get 0wned by the Lu-45 Hawk Air Superiority Fighter (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9708782&postcount=533) and the ships of Portland Iron Works... ;)

Yay! Back when it looked like McKagan and Amestria were going to go to war in Torontia I threatened MAD for the Torontian/Amestrian Air Force. I told Amestria that IMAF would fly 3000 planes in. That's Lu-45's, Su-82's, and Ku-29's; up against F-16's. :p

Got that. BTW, McKagan, check this thread out (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461235). I managed to find H&K a way in after all. I shall enjoy watching Amestrian RL US-tech stuff get 0wned by the Lu-45 Hawk Air Superiority Fighter (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9708782&postcount=533) and the ships of Portland Iron Works... ;)

And I may enjoy in a psychotic way hitting them with Amestria's 75 million man army (emergency numbers) and 20,000+ intercontinental nuclear arsenal if they are really that stupid!

SEA, you are so passive aggressive.

SEA what is this about your Leader being under attack in a Foreign country?
No, he's stuck due to the fact Czardas is under invasion by a few of his old, long-time IC enemies. I sure hope that his enemies are willing to accept diplomatic immunity...

Yay! Back when it looked like McKagan and Amestria were going to go to war in Torontia I threatened MAD for the Torontian/Amestrian Air Force. I told Amestria that IMAF would fly 3000 planes in. That's Lu-45's, Su-82's, and Ku-29's; up against F-16's. :p

It turned out that you could not IC fly those planes in, being where your country is located relative to Torontia...

Yay! Back when it looked like McKagan and Amestria were going to go to war in Torontia I threatened MAD for the Torontian/Amestrian Air Force. I told Amestria that IMAF would fly 3000 planes in. That's Lu-45's, Su-82's, and Ku-29's; up against F-16's. :p
McKagan, you'd might as well start working on your reference thread and factbook. What are the stats of your SU-82s and KU-29s?

It turned out that you could not IC fly those planes in, being where your country is located relative to Torontia...

It's not so much that I can't fly them in. It's that I couldn't fly them in in the NUMBERS I needed at the time. Now I could get several thousand out and use my massive air refueling network to get them here. I probably wouldn't dip that far into my strategic reserve, though.

Hey, you DO realize that I CAN hit into Torontia now, don't you? I built that fortress area/city/thing south of San Diego that is becoming a major IMAF hub.

Hey, you DO realize that I CAN hit into Torontia now, don't you? I built that fortress area/city/thing south of San Diego that is becoming a major IMAF hub.

You have yet to RP IC its completion, last I hear you where "building" it...

OOCly I'm sort of passive-agressive, but not IC.

OOCly I'm sort of passive-agressive, but not IC.

Not sort of, all the way... And some how I doubt it has no effect on you IC behavior...

McKagan, you'd might as well start working on your reference thread and factbook. What are the stats of your SU-82s and KU-29s?

The Su-82 is from the Lame Bums storefront. It's one of the best aircraft on NS and I put an entier years worth of Strategic Reserve cash into getting several thousand of them.

The Ku-29 is more like an NS'ified F-22 that I decided to make domestic.

I started my reference thread, decided it was too much work for someone using dialup; and abandoned the idea.

Not sort of, all the way... And some how I doubt it has no effect on you IC behavior...
Are you saying I suffer from a personality disorder? Because I don't. This is the Internet, so it's kinda hard to interpret people's intentions. If you know me face to face, I have a very small degree of passive-agressiveness.

Are you saying I suffer from a personality disorder? Because I don't. This is the Internet, so it's kinda hard to interpret people's intentions. If you know me face to face, I have a very small degree of passive-agressiveness.

No I am not saying you have a personality disorder...(everyone always takes what I say to an extreme)...

It is probably the internet...

Bullshit, it is and only can be SF that conducts the raids. There are no insurgent groups in WT (even in BC) and if SF aircraft crosses into WT airspace and things start blowing it up it is very clear what is going on... You are also assuming the raids are successful and no one is captured and confesses...

SF will get the credit and blame for what is its very obvious involvement!

Besides, I was also asking for an OOC favor...
There are no insurgent groups until one starts. Maybe this could be the first raid of a new group? You fail to realise that the explosives may or may not go off immediately. Explosions may happen due to "Amestrian mistakes" (actually done by the special forces, just made to look like Amestrian mistakes). How could the "quest for the General" not be successful? If they are a dime a dozen as you say, then their security would be pretty low. Not to mention the quality of them. Which brings me to another point, if General are a dime a dozen, then the quality and experience of them is definitely poor, which then goes on down the line as their subordinates have poor leadership and poor influence..and so on and so forth until Lieutenants have no clue what they are talking about and lead their men into battle to be slaughtered (not to mention the Torontian draftees, reserves and volunteers and the Amestrian reserves and all of their officers).

With the numbers of soldiers you are deploying, your economy must be taking a huge hit. With millions of soldiers, sailors and airmen serving overseas, and the wow 4 or 5 times as many people in support roles...thats a lot of personnel.
So many personnel would also make your zone extremely densely packed. There would be very little room to move, which is probably why they are all static. But such a density would mean a bombing raid on virtually any concentration of troops would result in mass casualties (for you) because A) They have no where to go, B) They are packed like sardines in a can and C) they are dug in and cant leave easily. The Logistics situation would be a nightmare, trying to keep so many personnel supplied. The destruction of one supply depot would be a huge blow to the Amestrian forces as getting those supplies there from another depot would involve tremendous effort, tremendous amounts of movement (which is not very likely in such a high density area).

See what I'm getting at? You are just sending your own soldiers to the grave by bringing in so many troops. I have a small force, of well trained, battle hardened veterans (Darvainian conflict and border clashes, and combat with your troops and those of Yallak). Oh well....choice is your's and you made it.

There are no insurgent groups until one starts. Maybe this could be the first raid of a new group? You fail to realise that the explosives may or may not go off immediately. Explosions may happen due to "Amestrian mistakes" (actually done by the special forces, just made to look like Amestrian mistakes). How could the "quest for the General" not be successful? If they are a dime a dozen as you say, then their security would be pretty low. Not to mention the quality of them. Which brings me to another point, if General are a dime a dozen, then the quality and experience of them is definitely poor, which then goes on down the line as their subordinates have poor leadership and poor influence..and so on and so forth until Lieutenants have no clue what they are talking about and lead their men into battle to be slaughtered (not to mention the Torontian draftees, reserves and volunteers and the Amestrian reserves and all of their officers).


I did not mean they were poorly trained by dime a dozen, just meant there are alot of them... and you are also assuming the Special forces will get anywhere near an airport... Special forces are not magicians, a raid can go to hell very easily in an instant... Amestrian officers are highly trained.


With the numbers of soldiers you are deploying, your economy must be taking a huge hit. With millions of soldiers, sailors and airmen serving overseas, and the wow 4 or 5 times as many people in support roles...thats a lot of personnel.

Things are still on peace footing, a million troops might be alot for a nation of 400 million, but for a nation of 1.5 billion with a powerhouse economy this is still borderline peace-time.


So many personnel would also make your zone extremely densely packed. There would be very little room to move, which is probably why they are all static. But such a density would mean a bombing raid on virtually any concentration of troops would result in mass casualties (for you) because A) They have no where to go, B) They are packed like sardines in a can and C) they are dug in and cant leave easily. The Logistics situation would be a nightmare, trying to keep so many personnel supplied. The destruction of one supply depot would be a huge blow to the Amestrian forces as getting those supplies there from another depot would involve tremendous effort, tremendous amounts of movement (which is not very likely in such a high density area).

You are overestimating the supply situation and failing to see the advantages of a densly packed force, which is there for occupation...


Oh well....choice is your's and you made it.

What is that supposed to mean?

^
Really.

Amestria; there's NO reason to have as many troops in Torontia as you have.

I could do it with between 200,000 and 300,000.

^
Really.

Amestria; there's NO reason to have as many troops in Torontia as you have.

I could do it with between 200,000 and 300,000.

The goal is one soldier for every 100 Torontian civilians (basic Amestrian doctrine, 100 or less).

And I dispute that and I would remind you that you have overestimated the ability of your forces before...

The goal is one soldier for every 100 Torontian civilians (basic Amestrian doctrine, 100 or less).

Well in a few years once the Amestrian economy goes dry McKagan will come there to help with humanitarian things just like in Torontia! :)

Well in a few years once the Amestrian economy goes dry McKagan will come there to help with humanitarian things just like in Torontia! :)

Its still peace-time footing... and the only aid you have provided to Torontia has been bombs and viruses...

As soon as you start fielding a large army like that, the quality of it drops. There is no way where you can field an army of that size and expect more than a quarter to be of a decent calibre. Otherwise I would've deployed 16 million from New McFarland and 10 million from North Saint Clair and a couple million from Pink and 25 million more from the rest of the commonwealth, not to mention 30 million from Torontia.

1) I would not be able to keep them supplied.
2) The quality of the soldiers and leaders would be shit.
3) Communication and cooperation would be a nightmare.
4) Logistics would breakdown.
5) It would be an organizational disaster trying to keep track of 100 million soldiers and 300 million civilians, not to mention the enemy.
6) There would be absolutely no room to move, especially with all the mountains, trees, cities, fortifications, other units, civilians, enemy attacks, insurgent attacks, natural disasters, poor weather, poor roads (they would be worn down quite quickly), poor/damaged railways (they would also be worn down quite quickly), having to fix said roads/railways while moving 20 million units, trying to invade another area that is mined and has units that are, much more mobile, better trained, better led, equally equipped, better supplied, more organized, on the defensive, and less densely packed. Trying such an attack on roads that would definitely not be able to handle such a tremendous assault would result in a bottleneck of the attackers and target practice for the defending aircraft. Your air defences would be useless due to the communications problems and the amount of aircraft that both sides have.

So you see? Explain the good things about being such easy targets?

Its still peace-time footing... and the only aid you have provided to Torontia has been bombs and viruses...

I don't care what you call it; 75 million soldiers is a strain on any nations economy and they're STILL going to be conscripts.

And I would have aided Torontia; but you cut me off from my supply lines...

You have yet to RP IC its completion, last I hear you where "building" it...
McKagan, what RL claims of land do you have? Is your country neighboring the DIH?

-snip-

EXACTLY. Amestria is HURTING Torontia by having so many troops there. Destroying infrastructure for one thing. Another thing is that it HAS to be the most unefficient Army in history. You can't tell me all of those soldiers have something to do! You're not really fighting anyone; and Torontia isn't going to become a better place humantarily while you deplete it to support your ARMY.

-snip-

You are aware that the majority are there for occupation/peacekeeping/security/rebuilding...

And it is a moot point as the Torontian question will be solved in the conference in Mckagan.

I don't care what you call it; 75 million soldiers is a strain on any nations economy and they're STILL going to be conscripts.

And I would have aided Torontia; but you cut me off from my supply lines...

Amestria only has 11 million soldiers at present, 64 million would be called up in the outbreak of a major war (at present the military has 11 million).

McKagan, what RL claims of land do you have? Is your country neighboring the DIH?

I've never placed McKagan on a RL earth. On NS it sits in the middle of an ocean and is a continent in itself. I'm doing the same thing on here only putting it somewhere in the South Atlantic... ish.

Amestria only has 11 million soldiers at present, 64 million would be called up in the outbreak of a major war (at present the military has 11 million).

That's about what I do. My active military is 12 million and I have a strategic reserve of several million.

You should just draft if you go to war with everyone; though. You'll do MUCH better if you're pouring lots of money into each soldier rather than having each soldier getting a gun and 3 bullets or even worse doing it the Soviet way:

"When you die I pick up your gun."

EXACTLY. Amestria is HURTING Torontia by having so many troops there. Destroying infrastructure for one thing. Another thing is that it HAS to be the most unefficient Army in history. You can't tell me all of those soldiers have something to do! You're not really fighting anyone; and Torontia isn't going to become a better place humantarily while you deplete it to support your ARMY.

(in no particular order)

1. Peacekeeping
2. Policing
3. Patrols
4. Rebuilding (a military provides ready manpower)
5. Guard duty at Amestrian bases
6. Basice security
7. Services
8. Protecting the borders...

Also, Amestria is supplying all its forces and paying for the TPG...

That's about what I do. My active military is 12 million and I have a strategic reserve of several million.

You should just draft if you go to war with everyone; though. You'll do MUCH better if you're pouring lots of money into each soldier rather than having each soldier getting a gun and 3 bullets or even worse doing it the Soviet way:

"When you die I pick up your gun."

There is a limited draft at present, to keep numbers up and maintain the strategic reserves... (and by 11 million I am not including support personnel).

Saint Fedski: Ame's true when he notes that my Special Forces aren't "magicians". It is possible for their missions to fail, although extremely unlikely. Although, unlike a lot of things, I don't "give and take" with the SOF-D. You either work hard to take them, or they kill you. None of this,

"My men shoot at your guys."

"Oh, I lose three guys."

No, you take aim, otherwise, you're shooting like a swahili with bronchitis.

Amestria: 75 Million in your armed forces? That's all-out war? Sigh...

McKagan, earlier on, you said that your men are nowhere near Torontia. But then how come some of them are in San Diego?

Amestria: 75 Million in your armed forces? That's all-out war? Sigh...

Amestria would only have that many in an all-out war (which there is not at present, so Amestria does not have that many at present, 75 million is an emergency number and Amestria is a nation of 1.5 billion).

Saint Fedski: Ame's true when he notes that my Special Forces aren't "magicians". It is possible for their missions to fail, although extremely unlikely. Although, unlike a lot of things, I don't "give and take" with the SOF-D. You either work hard to take them, or they kill you. None of this,

"My men shoot at your guys."

"Oh, I lose three guys."

No, you take aim, otherwise, you're shooting like a swahili with bronchitis.


Don't be overconfident...

Details, got it... Details...

(in no particular order)

1. Peacekeeping
2. Policing
3. Patrols
4. Rebuilding (a military provides ready manpower)
5. Guard duty at Amestrian bases
6. Basice security
7. Services
8. Protecting the borders...

Also, Amestria is supplying all its forces and paying for the TPG...

1) If there is no insurgency, what peacekeeping is needed?
2) Policing, isn't that what police are for, or haven't you trained any Torontian police while you were busy trying to expand your colony?
3) Patrolling what? Your soldiers on the borders are static. There is nothing to patrol. The Commonwealth main defence line is kilometers back from the front line, which is only manned by some well hidden outposts..like from the brief combat we had and some routine, platoon-comany size patrols.
4) Rebuilding - just more you have to supply on top of your own armed forces and those of the Torontian people
5) Guard duty at Amestrian bases...aren't guards just assumed to be in a military facility on foreign soil?
6) What the hell is basic security?
7) What services?
8) This is probably where you main deployments lie. Two million men on the borders, in soon to be extremely fortified positions, facing an army of maybe a hundred thousand at best (is someone terrified or what?)

9) By paying for all that, you are ruining your own economy which is why Eastern Torontia has trade links. It is definitely not in anybody's best interest if the Commonwealth economy goes to crap trying to save a country that given the proper direction, can save itself.

Remember SF you OOC promised that a conference would be held before anymore belligerence (war)... so there will be no escalation to war before the conference.

I'm not saying there will be. But the raids are still going on as they are not official Commonwealth missions, and anything that happens is going to be denied by the SF officials.

McKagan, earlier on, you said that your men are nowhere near Torontia. But then how come some of them are in San Diego?

South of San Diego.

CODEX captured Ira Gaines down there and then built a Special Forces base to hunt for other New Order combatants. After finding several hundred IMAF moved in to set up a base to explore around the dessert and search for more.

1) If there is no insurgency, what peacekeeping is needed?

Do you watch the news. Ever see what happens when a nation is in transition (transition nations are the most likely to have civil war or civil strife). There are lots of groups in Torontia that would have killed each other if not for the Amestria pressence.


2) Policing, isn't that what police are for, or haven't you trained any Torontian police while you were busy trying to expand your colony?

There is a Torontian police, but why take chances when you have easy manpower and police routes can double as military patrols...


3) Patrolling what? Your soldiers on the borders are static. There is nothing to patrol. The Commonwealth main defence line is kilometers back from the front line, which is only manned by some well hidden outposts..like from the brief combat we had and some routine, platoon-comany size patrols.

Neighborhoods, roads, vacant areas, the coasts... name it and it has a patrol...


6) What the hell is basic security?

Having a soldier on the corner to point when you need something, like directions and to discourage criminals...


7) What services?

Medicine, distribution of resources, expertise, est...


8) This is probably where you main deployments lie. Two million men on the borders, in soon to be extremely fortified positions, facing an army of maybe a hundred thousand at best (is someone terrified or what?)

I believe the front line deployments are only 600,000...


9) By paying for all that, you are ruining your own economy which is why Eastern Torontia has trade links. It is definitely not in anybody's best interest if the Commonwealth economy goes to crap trying to save a country that given the proper direction, can save itself.

I estimate it would take two solid years before the Amestrian Governments spending triggered a recession.

I estimate it would take two solid years before the Amestrian Governments spending triggered a recession.
Rebuilding an entire country while maintaining and expanding a massive military and logistical complex would ruin even the largest NS Economy in less than year. Your time is running low...soon you will be out of funds while the commonwealth will have felt very little impact. Gotta love letting nations rebuild themselves.

Rebuilding an entire country while maintaining and expanding a massive military and logistical complex would ruin even the largest NS Economy in less than year. Your time is running low...soon you will be out of funds while the commonwealth will have felt very little impact. Gotta love letting nations rebuild themselves.

I estimate two years (and this is factoring other matters outside of Torontia). Ever heard of deficit spending? Look at the RL US; it is spending how much money it does not have...? Same with European Nations whose budget deficits are regularly over 3%... It took two years before the US felt the pain of the Vietnam War, for example. Amestria had a fiscal surplus before Torontia…

Two years is my estimate so Amestria has a while yet... and even then the recession would start slowly with inflation and build up over another two years...

Can everyone please start moving their people towards Kurora?

Just to point out, once they get there they'll be moved to The Complex and put in separate quarters where they will wait for everyone ELSE to get there. I also have a very detailed plan for what order the conference will move in, so I'll be doing most of the organizing.

I also have a very detailed plan for what order the conference will move in, so I'll be doing most of the organizing.

Eat your heart out...

SF, please respond to my Governments message to your Commonwealth Chairwomen (posted on the main thread).

Amestria would only have that many in an all-out war (which there is not at present, so Amestria does not have that many at present, 75 million is emergency numbers and for a nation of 1.5 billion it is not even 1%).

1,500,000,000 x .01 (AKA 1%) = 15,000,000

1,500,000,000 x .01 (AKA 1%) = 15,000,000

Okay, so my math was off... (slaps self in the head). Matters little as 75 million is an emergency number (when the enemy is at the gates so to speak).

Eat your heart out...

SF, please respond to my Governments message to your Commonwealth Chairwomen (posted on the main thread).
The office of the Chairwoman threw it in a pile. The Chairwoman is not directly involved with Torontia let alone a conference about it....especially when there is a large meeting about to happen (in two days) in the Commonwealth. Maybe once the conference is over, will she respond, or even read it.

SC, how many forces can I have in my military? I'm hopeless at math.

And McKagan, it's supposed to be 'Southeast Asia', but because someone took it, I chose this one instead. But I'd rather you refer me as 'Southeast Asia', as it's the name I wanted, ICly and OOCly.

You can at least respond that she is busy and then explain who you are going to send...

And McKagan, it's supposed to be 'Southeast Asia', but because someone took it, I chose this one instead. But I'd rather you refer me as 'Southeast Asia', as it's the name I wanted, ICly and OOCly.

Got ya; I'll fix that in a minute

SC, how many forces can I have in my military? I'm hopeless at math.

And McKagan, it's supposed to be 'Southeast Asia', but because someone took it, I chose this one instead. But I'd rather you refer me as 'Southeast Asia', as it's the name I wanted, ICly and OOCly.
At 5% you can have - 56.1 million personnel in all branches combined
At 2% you can have - 22.44 million personnel in all branches combined
At 1% you can have - 11.22 million personnel in all branches combined

My future plans don't have the Army exceeding 2 million frontline soldiers with roughly 5 million behind the scenes. Reserves will be another matter though, I have yet to work out how to do it properly.

I can imagine President Kil drawing the words 'ROYALLY SCREWED' in red, bold capitals as soon as he delivers a finishing political blow. Then Amestria will be another SWC-gutted area, the only difference is that the rest of the protectorates used to belong to nutjob dictators. Now, Amestria is the first DEMOCRACY to be gutted into protectorates! BWAHAHAHAHA!

The SWC will have to beat the Commonwealth there!!

But HailandKill is a very close friend of the SWC, so one could say it's a joint-effort. :p

It would be interesting if he were to personally show up at the conference...

I'm sending a disguised HCIA agent to observe the conference. He'll probably pose as McKagan security or something, and report back to Washington on the goings-on at the conference. I'm writing up an Encrypted Communique to McKagan right now asking his government if my agent can come.

SEA, I appreciate your support of Kil, but did you have to pick out one of my n00b posts to demonstrate? :p

I can imagine President Kil drawing the words 'ROYALLY SCREWED' in red, bold capitals as soon as he delivers a finishing political blow.

Now there's some interesting imagery of my President...

Then Amestria will be another SWC-gutted area, the only difference is that the rest of the protectorates used to belong to nutjob dictators. Now, Amestria is the first DEMOCRACY to be gutted into protectorates! BWAHAHAHAHA!

I doubt this will ever escalate to attacking the Amestrian homeland; our relations are strained, but not that bad. Besides, my government's only real objective is to get the current occupying powers out, and re-build the place ourselves, while cooperating with whatever plan McKagan's got cooked up.

I doubt this will ever escalate to attacking the Amestrian homeland; our relations are strained, but not that bad. Besides, my government's only real objective is to get the current occupying powers out, and re-build the place ourselves, while cooperating with whatever plan McKagan's got cooked up.

I'd hate to be allied with someone like me.

I change my plans around every 30 seconds.

Oh no! As long as I get my share of Amestrian land...and people to enslave. I'll put em to use like Kraven...Everyone will go on a nice long vacation....to the mines.

But he's just a friend, not an actual member, right?

What i've did with every nation I've invaded (and are holding land from) is have Avali-Burton (my defense corporation) buy out almost every major industry they have. Then I use the land there to expand my anti-guided missile system. Then, like I did in Saharistan, I turn massive amounts of their land into a military base. (The entier Saharistani coastline is a naval base...)

Once Leafanistan, TLA, Red Tide, and I took over Frozopia, we've had to invest billions into rebuilding the infrastructure because of the best air war IMAF ever had.

Okay, I am considering jumping back in here. A problem is that I stopped keeping up when I left. Can someone give me a brief summary of what has happened since I left?

Terrorist attack in the "BC" area of the Amestrian zone..poison gas and all.

Small border clashes between Amestria and The Commonwealth of Saint Fedski

Numerous peace talks, but no success

Yallak began a blockade of all SF ships. Then launched a "warning" attack and SF responded by launching a larger attack on the Yallak fleet

Amestria and Yallak launched attacks on civilian centers...the dead in Spokane are still being counted.

Massive invasion by Yallak and Amestria which was beaten...well Yallak withdrew support for Amestria and therefore had nothing against SF, but the Amestrian's kept coming declared a ceasefire when a Torontian division stopped them in their tracks.

Special forces from SF and Sniper Country are have entered the Amestrian zone.

Another peace conference is about to start but it wont go anywhere because Amestria won't fold the provisional government.

If Amestria is to make any hostile actions (shooting at SF forces) a full scale war will be started. If Amestria uses any of their N2 bombs again, the Commonwealth, with permission from it's allies will go nuclear. I hope it doesn't go to that.

There are some other aspects...but thats the main events. McKagen and Amestria and SEA can fill in the gaps.

Leafanistan has been arming the neighboring nation of Independent Montana with highly modern weaponry. The Black Hand of Nod working with the Leafanistani Mafia have been importing lots of money and weapons into Independent Montana through poorly secured Idaho. They are currently prepared to make a strike into SF territory and sieze a nearby city.

Why would they be doing that? :(

SF: I'd say we've gotten far enough; I believe it's only fair to allow Amestria a turn to reply so far, and then we shall proceed. So long as he doesn't pop up and have us surrounded by a company or something just like that.

Why would they be doing that? :(

To insurge. That is what insurgencies do, fight the oppressors.

But lets say if you RP things in the other thread to contact our Mafia friends on the docks in San Diego then maybe you can allow this 'roaming band of nomads' the ability to get across the border and strike at Amestria.

Also I seriously need a map, I have no idea where the border lies and I'm assuming Torontia is Washington, Oregon, a chunk of British Columbia and possibly a piece of Idaho. Very close to Independent Montana which claims all of northern Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, half of North Dakota, and a quarter of South Dakota.

Perhaps if you do arrange it but don't want us crossing we could just move around the border and do the strike at an Amestrian Occupied city. Idaho -> Nevada -> California -> Western Torontia. We could hit a major dock city. He does have an obscene number of troops.

Just to point out, there was no real "poison gas."

McKagan DART teams who just happened to be walking through Torontia at the time while carrying huge stockpiles of bio weaponry infiltrated the public transportation system.

-SNIP-

I'm using Google Local as the source of my information. The following map hasn't been updated since before Red Tide left but there haven't been many changes
http://www.angelfire.com/creep/fff17/torontia/Torontia.html

Amestria has moved north into BC.

The area above the light blue has also been occupied by me, up to the BC border.

SF has only surrounded Spokane and the airport. A small area from Davenport to the Highway 90 symbol should be blue. The rest of the Red area is still relatively unoccupied except by the occasionally by Torontian patrols.

A small pro-tanakis group invaded from the east, but was sent packing by a couple small air raids by the Torontian Civil Air Force (civilian planes armed with a couple cannons and 2 or 3 bombs) and some Torontian patrols.

Toss me a TG and we can see if we can work out some of the insurgency issues before making a post about it.

I am going to post on the Amestrian radar picking up your plane right off the bat (seeing how it just flew into the Amestrian zone at high altitude).

I'm using Google Local as the source of my information. The following map hasn't been updated since before Red Tide left but there haven't been many changes
http://www.angelfire.com/creep/fff17/torontia/Torontia.html



The white area west of BC is part of the Amestrian zone (and it is Torontian as well.)

but the Amestrian's kept coming declared a ceasefire when a Torontian division stopped them in their tracks.


The Amestrian forces withdrew because of the cease fire, no one stopped them!

And Yallak has not left Torontia, they still have there 1000 ship fleet and two million man force... They have just been quiet...

I can imagine President Kil drawing the words 'ROYALLY SCREWED' in red, bold capitals as soon as he delivers a finishing political blow. Then Amestria will be another SWC-gutted area, the only difference is that the rest of the protectorates used to belong to nutjob dictators. Now, Amestria is the first DEMOCRACY to be gutted into protectorates! BWAHAHAHAHA!

Passive aggressive!

Why would they be doing that? :(

Suck it up, Amestria fought off two foreign backed insurgencies!

To insurge. That is what insurgencies do, fight the oppressors.

But lets say if you RP things in the other thread to contact our Mafia friends on the docks in San Diego then maybe you can allow this 'roaming band of nomads' the ability to get across the border and strike at Amestria.

Perhaps if you do arrange it but don't want us crossing we could just move around the border and do the strike at an Amestrian Occupied city. Idaho -> Nevada -> California -> Western Torontia. We could hit a major dock city. He does have an obscene number of troops.

Amestria has 600,000+ troops on the Amestrian/SF border (which is being heavily fortified on the Amestrian side) and 400,000 troops patroling the coasts... I doubt you "roaming band" could get close.

Amestria also has coastal patrols from its naval forces...

I am going to post on the Amestrian radar picking up your plane right off the bat (seeing how it just flew into the Amestrian zone at high altitude).
It didn't fly into the Amestrian zone. You can pick it up all you want...you attack you start a war. But it was a HALO insertion (High Altitude, Low Opening) meaning that they jumped from however high SC posted, flew east, then opened their chutes at 500 feet and finished the drop..landing right on target.

It didn't fly into the Amestrian zone. You can pick it up all you want...you attack you start a war. But it was a HALO insertion (High Altitude, Low Opening) meaning that they jumped from however high SC posted, flew east, then opened their chutes at 500 feet and finished the drop..landing right on target.

Tell me, how many planes are there in SF airspace which currently go so high up?

Oh no! As long as I get my share of Amestrian land...and people to enslave. I'll put em to use like Kraven...Everyone will go on a nice long vacation....to the mines.

But he's just a friend, not an actual member, right?
He's a friend, not an actual member yet though. But don't enslave them, that's just plain mean.

Mckagan, TG...

SF, how would your government react if Amestria were to make diplomatic asscusations against you...

Tell me, how many planes are there in SF airspace which currently go so high up?
There's some transports going from base to base every now and then between 10 thousand and 30 thousand feet most of my fighters stay above 25,000 while strike aircraft are generally 5,000 or less. The Sherpa was just under 20,000 when they soldiers jumped.

Mckagan, TG...

SF, how would your government react if Amestria were to make diplomatic asscusations against you...
They would either respond, challenge your proof, discredit you or ignore them depends what the accusations are. Not going to go to war just because you claim that SF doesn't like chocolate. :p

SF, how would your government react if Amestria were to make diplomatic asscusations against you...

Probably how any government should react.

Deny everything.

Mckagan, TG...

Tell me, how many planes are there in SF airspace which currently go so high up?

20,000 MSL isn't even a Flight Level. Flight Levels start at FL280, or 28,000 MSL. It'd be likely that most aircraft (such as transports, civilian airlines [especially], etc.) would fly at/above FL280, or at least 18,000 MSL. When refering to en route flight, 20,000 MSL isn't too awfully high.

EDIT: Also note that vertical separation for IFR and VFR (Instrument Flight Rules, meaning, the pilots are flying using their instruments, not sight / Visual Flight Rules, meaning, exact opposite of IFR) is 1000ft. Between VFR and IFR is 500ft. There's a lot of space out there. Separation is key.

SC, SF, I will post regarding the raids when I have time...

You will have to be patient as you ignored me OOC when I advised that my responses would be a little bit delayed...

That's entirely fine. I'm going to work in an hour and a half so I won't affect me much.

Mckagan another TG...

Since there seems to be a bit of OOC confusion from some people, I'll lay out all my cards right here. (This is the OOC thread, I don't want to see anyone change their tactics because of this.)

Kahanistan's whole intention in going into Torontia was to stabilize the country and defeat the insurgency, hoping that this would end the need for an occupation, and remove the incentive for Amestria and St. Fedski to fight each other, so it wouldn't get dragged into a war on one side or the other. The insurgency is defeated now.

They kind of got dragged into a nasty situation when they were urged to kill all the insurgents they captured. This was so controversial that soldiers and officers who criticized the policy were often reassigned to Kraven or other areas where they would be less able to communicate.

Now the Kahanistan Government is trying to cover its ass from its mistakes in getting dragged into a dirty war. They're trying to keep it secret so that it doesn't damage relations with a nation they hope to make an ally.

Some in Kahanistan think that the whole policy is that of the Western Torontian government, though opinions of how independent it is from Amestria vary widely. Others think that there is little or no distinction between the AOA and TPG.

(I'll put more info in this post as it comes to me.)

Amestria told me that if the TPLA died he'd have troop reductions. The TPLA died, and there have been no troop reductions.

Just come to the peace conference. I'm fixing this the one last time.

Amestria told me that if the TPLA died he'd have troop reductions. The TPLA died, and there have been no troop reductions.

Just come to the peace conference. I'm fixing this the one last time.

As soon as SF stops the saper rattling and reduces its forces and an agreement is struck there will be gradual Amestrian troop reductions...

Troop reductions were planned but the conflict with SF has interfered... And as soon as there is no reason for such a large deployment it will be reduced...

(Much has been made of Amestria's army, but has anyone seen SF's navy?)

Amestria, do you know what is antimatter?

Amestria, do you know what is antimatter?

FT...

Amestria, I don't know if I can allow you saying that the TPLA told you where they got the virus. For starters, most TPLA soldiers didn't even know it was a bio weapon. Only the bus drivers (who installed it) and the command (DART) The bus drivers were infected and would have long since died. There's no one left that knows it was a bio weapon.

I AM ok with you having your GOVERNMENT say that the TPLA prisoners admited to it. That has to be a LIE though, we can't prove it easily, but in reality the average TPLA soldier wouldn't know that.

Amestria, I don't know if I can allow you saying that the TPLA told you where they got the virus. For starters, most TPLA soldiers didn't even know it was a bio weapon. Only the bus drivers (who installed it) and the command (DART) The bus drivers were infected and would have long since died. There's no one left that knows it was a bio weapon.

I AM ok with you having your GOVERNMENT say that the TPLA prisoners admited to it. That has to be a LIE though, we can't prove it easily, but in reality the average TPLA soldier wouldn't know that.

If you read the post you realize that they are leading him on and it is his "last chance to confess..." Be hanged or agree to confess...hmmm...

FT...

False. Books exist that state the antimatter IS possible. I've got a top secret project planned (meaning i'm still pushing scientists around and nothing is happening) to develop a Tactical Antimatter weapon that's about 5 kilotons strong.

Not true, recently, they have produced some in CERN....

Antimatter is not relavent to this RP...

If you read the post you realize that they are leading him on and it is his "last chance to confess..." Be hanged or agree to confess...hmmm...

True, but it's not very clear. THAT'S what you need to do, have it be forced out of him. But OOCly i'm saying, it's FALSE so it CAN be proven so; eventually.

Antimatter is not relavent to this RP...

Other members of this site can use TG's too.

Food for thought.

True, but it's not very clear. THAT'S what you need to do, have it be forced out of him. But OOCly i'm saying, it's FALSE so it CAN be proven so; eventually.

It is being forced out of him in a very passive way... Amestria does not torture (just lets the TPG execute non-cooperating insurgents)...

It is called subtlety, you notice he never volunteers information that is not first suggested by the MIO's... It is clear enough to the reader who pays attention...

Xirnium, Mckagan has no video evidence nor is it claiming to have any...

It is Leaf. that is doing so (and it is fake!)

Please correct.

Didn't McKagan have a genuine DART video?

That was of the mass bombings by Yallak/Amestria and the quarantine. Ask him about it! As I said there is no video evidence of any executions!

Videos of executions during the quarantine would be indistinguishable from executions of TPLA members, and probably are executions of TPLA members so I fail to see your point.

Videos of executions during the quarantine would be indistinguishable from executions of TPLA members, and probably are executions of TPLA members so I fail to see your point.

The two are different...

Executions are being lined up and shot and then secretly buried, which is what Amestria is being accused up, Amestria never hid the quarantine from anyone...

OOC: I'd like to clarrify this. The McKagan Government is on warm-neutral standings with Amestria. McKagan Intelligence has "claimed" nothing. All I'm reporting here is coming through SRN, McKagan's largest media corporation. The MCID will be investigating these things, but ALL alegations (Lou Bryant) comes from a MEDIA outlet, and is not official

Corrected.

By the way, how did SRN come by the DART video?

Amestria: I know there is a difference (between executions and the city thing,) but that doesn't matter. The public will STILL take it as Amestrians killing innocent people unless you can come out and make some stand. You either have to ADMIT to certain things (how you're enforcing curfew), or deny them. Personally, I'd admit to certain things. You have to make a stand somewhere your you'll have no political ground left. ATTACK some of our arguments rather than calling our reporters names and denying everything.

It doesn't matter what is true OOCly or just by reading the story. It cannot be presented that way. The media rules the world and right now you're losing control.

About the DART's: I've not got to make every single movement they have detailed, do I? This RP hasn't been very well done on anyones side for small character movements. I established long ago that these DART's are for recon; and I'm using everything they could reasonably gather to a reasonable point.

Corrected.

By the way, how did SRN come by the DART video?

Ok, let me fix this. The MCID IS part of this, just covert.

I've got two units of DART's. A major one at a random football stadium in Idaho that are hiding out and... drinking beer? I also have a very small unit in Torontia that is gathering this intel and making runs to take it to the stadium. From there it is sent to the MCID, which in turn they send it to SRN. They bribed Lou into making his first report, and now he is connected to the Torontian story in any case.

Amestria has always admited to the curfew, the TPG President announced it on TV for goodness sakes...

Mac, check the regional bulletin board; the forums are up.

Amestria has always admited to the curfew, the TPG President announced it on TV for goodness sakes...

This is true; but how would the public see it?

They probably thought it was just tough talk. Now images of people being SHOT are coming out after you're being accused of this? It's just like with the Abu Graib in Iraq thing. The same images, over and over... It doesn't matter how accurate they are. Look at Gitmo. The CNN footage of the prisoners living in their own shit is YEARS old but people still buy it.

It doesn't matter WHAT is obvious to the OOC viewpoint. You've got to start proving this stuff ICly or your nation won't have any political credibility left; and that WILL come back to haunt you.

I have taken actions to protect Amestria's reputation...

I have taken actions to protect Amestria's reputation...

Rubbish, you've acted like a cowboy that thinks he can do what he likes, exterminating political rivals and establishing harsh draconian laws to assert your rule.

Or at least that is how the world will see Amestria, and rightfully so.

What happens when the defector goes public and starts naming names?

Rubbish, you've acted like a cowboy that thinks he can do what he likes, exterminating political rivals and establishing harsh draconian laws to assert your rule.

Or at least that is how the world will see Amestria, and rightfully so.

Not true... Amestria was fighting against Kraven...:)

Not true... Amestria was fighting against Kraven...:)
You never fought against Kraven. You know, Amestria, lies only work when they aren't the only thing your government ever says. :D

Amestria hasn't done ANYTHING to protect its reputation. What an officer says to an investigator means nothing. For starters, it can't be challenged by Lou or the other side, and two, it's not reaching anyone besides the person you talked to.

You never fought against Kraven. You know, Amestria, lies only work when they aren't the only thing your government ever says. :D

Amestria has evidence that Kraven tried to attack them and that Kraven provided the TPLA with the bio-weapon... And that SF has a secret alliance with Kraven...

Because you happened to sink a single Saint Fedski ship containing a couple of Saradaukar in it doesn't mean that you have been "fighting Kraven".

It certainly doesn't excuse your crimes. Furthermore, no one but you is aware of it.

Amestria has evidence that Kraven tried to attack them and that Kraven provided the TPLA with the bio-weapon... And that SF has a secret alliance with Kraven...

By talking about this you're doing nothing. Make a public broadcast. Y'know, nothing you're saying is helping you because NO ONE IS HEARING IT. For you to reach people you must leave your comments open to be challenged.

Yes, so save such talk for the IC...

Just want to say, I'm entering this RP, following SEA's advice. I'll be acting as a neutral peacekeeper, should you all agree.

Another neutral peacekeeper... You do realize that Amestria has over one million troops in Torontia... 10,000 soldiers is half an Amestrian division...

Actually, more of observers. To make sure your doing the right thing, more or less.

If I wanted to contest your hold on your part of Torontia, I would have sent a whole lot more troops.

Actually, more of observers. To make sure your doing the right thing, more or less.

If I wanted to contest your hold on your part of Torontia, I would have sent a whole lot more troops.

Military forces are out of the question (and I have IC posted that). Unarmed observers is another matter...

Actually, more of observers. To make sure your doing the right thing, more or less.

If I wanted to contest your hold on your part of Torontia, I would have sent a whole lot more troops.

There are enough Guns in Torontia. It's already overkill, we don't need another 'peacekeeping army' which wouldn't be allowed to do what you want them to do anyway.

Military forces are out of the question (and I have IC posted that). Unarmed observers is another matter...

Observers are usually armed with sidearms and light vehicles, to protect themselves in case the observees become hostile.

Observers are usually armed with sidearms and light vehicles, to protect themselves in case the observees become hostile.

With over two million Amestrian and TPG troops in Torontia there is no need to worry...

Remember Kimblee...everything from that point can be reconstructed.

The after effects of the carnage are not secret (and there are many public elements)... It can be reconstructed what happened. I was just showing OOC the violence, which would have become general knowledge IC afterwards. And Kahanistan views it as murder as well thank you very much.

Also Xirnium, your government has admited it has had agents there...remember...

(and there has not been any insurgent attacks for weeks...claiming it could be anyone in this case is lame...)

Just because Xirnium may have agents in Torontia does not mean we attacked that checkpoint. Both Sniper Country and Saint Fedski have commandos in Torontia, and there are also numerous terrorist groups there as well, anyone could have attacked it. (for example, your good friends the Saint Fedskians, who have a front line only 20 km away, or McKagan and Hal who have all of a sudden started to attack you diplomatically.)

Fact is you have no proof.

Proof

1. Kimblee saw the Xirnium agents

2. A short time later a bunch of Kahansitans turned up dead

3. Xirnium admited that it had agents in Torontia and it extracted Foster, who commited treason and was going to be arrested (and not killed as Kahanistan has no death penalty, unlike Amestria).

The 20 Amestrian soldiers where killed by SF during the war but Amestria is blaming Xirnium anyway... And when your men hit Kimblee, that refers to the torture...

The accusations are 1/3rd true, now remove the OOC objections...

Foster disappears from his base and a later attack on the other side of BC more then 80km away where Saint Fedskian helicopters and special forces where moving around gets blamed on the agents (which Kimblee alleges to be Inquisitors) that rescued him. Flimsy at best.

Move along Amestria, you got nothing.

Foster disappears on the other side of BC and a later attack get's blamed on the agents that rescued him. Flimsy at best.

It was not the other side or it would have taken more then a day to reach the front...

PS: Check out the new Thread on SF's crimes...

We established that it was over 80km away.

now remove the OOC objections...

I will remove it when you remove the links to events that no one saw. Make your own post on the aftermath if you like, but those are secret IC.

McKagan and Hal who have all of a sudden started to attack you diplomatically
*sigh* Xirnium, do honestly think that Halberdgardia and McKagan would have played diplomatic hardball with Amestria 'all of a sudden'? They've been waiting for the inevitable: the occupying powers getting caught in a political firestorm. Amestria would have done it by themselves, or the SWC-backed insurgency would have anyway. It seems that you OOCly and ICly underestimate the SWC.

You missunderstand me, Southeastasia, I'm explaining it from Amestria's point of view, from the world's. Obviously they've been working towards this for some time. But it is only "all of a sudden" that this onslaught has begun on Amestria from the SWC, which the Amestrians illogically blame on Xirnium.

I would appreciate it if you did not jump at me for every minor perceived slight against the SWC that I make.

Amestria has been fighting Kraven, a secret ally of SF...:)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=461614

Got that. BTW do you think that you and your allies could beat the SWC should they somehow to provoke ya? Because it seems that Xirnium carries a radiance of bad luck that befalls anyone that provokes her...

*sigh* Xirnium, do honestly think that Halberdgardia and McKagan would have played diplomatic hardball with Amestria 'all of a sudden'? They've been waiting for the inevitable: the occupying powers getting caught in a political firestorm. Amestria would have done it by themselves, or the SWC-backed insurgency would have anyway. It seems that you OOCly and ICly underestimate the SWC.

The SWC insurgency was utterly ineffective, which is why they stoped supporting it... Amestria's military position just became stronger.

Mckagan and Hal. have been attacking Amestria ever since Amestria told them they could not annex Torontian land...

Got that. BTW do you think that you and your allies could beat the SWC should they somehow to provoke ya? Because it seems that Xirnium carries a radiance of bad luck that befalls anyone that provokes her...

Xirnium is isolationist and Amestria has no intention of attacking her...

I am afraid I have to disappoint your passive aggressive saber rattling but there will be no war...

I was directing the question at Xirnium.

Xirnium is isolationist and Amestria has no intention of attacking her...

It's a never ending headache to the High Ecclesiarchy that Holy Xirnium ever got involved in this whole sorry mess. We hope that the coming conference can end this once and for all and we can forget about Torontia as one would forget about any particularly unplesant dream.

Think about it, what has Xirnium gained? Nothing. Punishing Amestria over their attempt to breach our sovereignty was one thing, and that's done now. Xirnium got its revenge when Yallak abandoned her. Now though...

The High Ecclesiarchy is ready to let other people worry about the warcrimes Amestria commited. We've more important things to worry about elsewhere, and no one can say that Holy Xirnium hasn't done enough already in the cause of promoting human rights in Torontia. The sooner we return to splendid isolation, the better.

Every nation that has been heavily involved in Torontia has skeletons in the closet...

I say we all just nuke it and go home :D (joking)

X, my question?

I replied TG, what did you think of my answer? Cryptic like any Grand Cardinals' would be?

Xirnium can you respond to the new thread, it in your nations direct interest/concern what to pay attention to what Amestria is alleging...

I will, but you have to give me time. This is a matter which goes to the heart of the Adamantine Alliance. You can be rest assured that it has not been overlooked.

Saint Fedski, I posted all day but I did not have the time to respond to the Sniper County raid (as I told you earlier). I will post on it when I have time, be patient, I have an Occupation, War Crime Accusations and Counter Accusations to deal with, as well as an investigation from Four Hearts and relations with Kahanistan... Not to mention the Peace Conference in Mckagan and the ongoing feud with Xirnium (which is dieing down)...

So please be patient...

I can have you SAYING the prisoners told you were helped them with weapons, but you can in NO WAY prove it. NO WAY. You can't say those prisoners lead you to a drop site or ANYTHING. I'd just like to point out that the McKagan government has been silent on the Amestrian's recently (Lou has been doing the talking; that's not McKagan). The McKagan's have been working for peace; and if you come out accusing them of all that, you'll probably lose that and find yourself in a diplomatic war. With not only SRN, but MCKAGAN.

Just putting this out for EVERYONE.

I say we all just nuke it and go home :D (joking)

Been there done that bought the T-Shirt.

Mckagan, what Amestria is saying to the Four Hearts investigator is Secret IC...

Also, yes Amestria has a Embassy in Mckagan, why would it not...

Mckagan, what Amestria is saying to the Four Hearts investigator is Secret IC...

So what? It doesn't matter if it's secret IC or not. There's no reason for you to be suspicious AT ALL; and it is from this point being ignored. Anything based on suspicion from that is ignored.

Also, yes Amestria has a Embassy in Mckagan, why would it not...

Erm... I don't remember us talking about that. You can't just declare you have an embassy in a nation; people have to agree to certain aspects of it on both sides. As it stands, we've not had any good IC relations (did you ever respond to the CODEX thread?) and even if we had, it takes time to build an embassy.

So what? It doesn't matter if it's secret IC or not. There's no reason for you to be suspicious AT ALL; and it is from this point being ignored. Anything based on suspicion from that is ignored.

In the past I have given plenty of reason to suspect Mckagan, there has just never been any proof! It is not beinging ignored because this has been an element of the RP since Tanakis's escape. Amestria has just never gone public because it has no proof. And Amestria can slander Mckagan all it wants, it does not even have to suspect Mckagan, Amestria can say whatever it wants in private (that is what Lou has done in public and you don't hear me bitching, live with it!) Mckagan has slandered Amestria, made charges, and armed insurgents... even if relations have warmed there is still bad blood, and it is secret IC...

You have no grounds to ignore. Now delete the OOC remark!


Erm... I don't remember us talking about that. You can't just declare you have an embassy in a nation; people have to agree to certain aspects of it on both sides. As it stands, we've not had any good IC relations (did you ever respond to the CODEX thread?) and even if we had, it takes time to build an embassy.

Look, as far as I am concerned, any power with over one billion people has an Embassy with other powers over a billion people unless it is explicitly said that they do not have one (do you know how many nations there are in NS?!) Why would you have a problem?

If you had an embassy with every power over a billion...you'd have two armies: one as embassy guards and security and the other as an actual army. :p

If you had an embassy with every power over a billion...you'd have two armies: one as embassy guards and security and the other as an actual army. :p

An embassy can be nothing more then one person in a hotel room...just pointing that out...

Mckagan, TG...

Look, as far as I am concerned, any power with over one billion people has an Embassy with other powers over a billion people unless it is explicitly said that they do not have one (do you know how many nations there are in NS?!) Why would you have a problem?

What in the holy FUCK are you talking about? You don't just DECLARE you have an embassy somewhere. Embassies are in nations that have at some point had RELATIONS. Before Torontia we hadn't and at that no one did. If you can suddenly declare where you have an embassy, I'll just assume that every nation over one billion has a military base exchange with me. :)

Some nations have POLICIES on who gets embassies. Some won't allow a nation they aren't the best of allies with in. That's semi what I do. Every nation I have an embassy with is one I've signed SOME sort of agreement with. Be it trade, mutal protection, allies, or whatever. But you don't just DECLARE that you have a bse somewhere. If relations are better and we suddenly stop working against each other, sure, it might happen; but right that doesn't work...

-snip-

Fine, I will alter it so it is from the Amestrian Foreign Ministry... Happy?

Now remove your OOC remarks on the War Crimes thread...

Now remove your OOC remarks on the War Crimes thread...

'Saw This The First Time
'Saw This In The Telegram
I Am On Dial Up

'Saw This The First Time
'Saw This In The Telegram
I Am On Dial Up

Sorry, sometimes I forget...

SF, Ame:

Do either of you have MSN MEssenger?