NationStates Jolt Archive

besides me...just curious

BOOOO!

Immigration's great, especially in Europe!

BOOOO!

Immigration's great, especially in Europe!

Are you dutch or flemish or something else? Your signature looks like dutch...or are u an immigrant yourself?

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...

Are you dutch or flemish or something else? Your signature looks like dutch...or are u an immigrant yourself?

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...

I'm English and know very little Dutch, I just like the way it sounds. And no, the family of my mother and father come from England.

Your defense of Prussian Blue suddenly makes a lot more sense.

'Who else is anti-immigrant?'

Idiots, that's who.

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...

Even if you changed that feeble argument to my own nation, it still wouldn't bother me. Why would I care if 70% of the population is muslim? I don't hold 70% of the countries religious beliefs anyway, so what's the big deal?

Besides, Scotland needs immigration, or there won't be anyone left. So yeah. I'm pro-immigrants.

I am

besides me...just curious
Why should anybody be? Besides the risk of crime, there should be less restrictions on immigration. Take the US for example: it's damn impossible to get in here legally. I think immigration shouldn't be supported too much, but it shouldn't be impossible either.

but im american so we are more conservative then most of you guys overthere in europe. Big immigration debates and protests have been going on lately but thats an illegal immigration debate...

'Who else is anti-immigrant?'

Idiots, that's who.

Very smart yourself (!)...I can tell by your argument...

but im american so we are more conservative then most of you guys overthere in europe. Big immigration debates and protests have been going on lately but thats an illegal immigration debate...
I am American. Just because people on this forum are liberal doesn't mean we aren't American.

Your defense of Prussian Blue suddenly makes a lot more sense.

Hopefully, you'd realise that there's a wide spectrum between being anti-immigrant and neo-nazi

Are you dutch or flemish or something else? Your signature looks like dutch...or are u an immigrant yourself?

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...Probably just as great as usual. They will have been assimilated by then. Because that's what the British culture does, it devours other cultures!

I've lived in a >90% community before. And the biggest problem was the government which was avowedly secular.

I also find it funny how Chrisitan get all scared by Muslims implementing Sharia law when much of the law in Christian countries is based upon the bible.

We should deal with our own extremists before telling other people who to deal with theirs.

Immigrants are great, and I don't think the UK can get enough of them.

i meant to post that one b4 you to say I am... but... sorry about that i wasnt calling you unamerican

Immigrants are great, and I don't think the UK can get enough of them.

Especially not in the highlands, or the Western Isles.

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...

And what, exactly, is wrong with having a population which are Muslim in the majority?

Even if you changed that feeble argument to my own nation, it still wouldn't bother me. Why would I care if 70% of the population is muslim? I don't hold 70% of the countries religious beliefs anyway, so what's the big deal?

Besides, Scotland needs immigration, or there won't be anyone left. So yeah. I'm pro-immigrants.

Ok, go to iran or saudi arabia and try not to care majority of the population is muslim...
Who says Scotland needs more immigration? Besides economists who only care about the size of GDP (more people = bigger economy = more money or immigrants = cheap labour = money)

And what, exactly, is wrong with having a population which are Muslim in the majority?

Please!! Just think!

but american immigration is a problem....

Mexico has the 14th largest GDP in the world but they have so much of the wealth in so few that they need a revolution and us letting all the poor into the US for pity is not helping people realize to revolt.

And other nations citizens like the Philippines have applied back in 1983 to become americans and they still are in line waiting.....

How can anyone allow the 11 million illegal hispanics in here when other people clearly want it just as bad and are doing it legally

Please!! Just think!

Instead of just criticizing everyone, put forward some arguments yourself.

Immigration is good, it gives diversity to our countries. And for european countries, it contributes to lower the demographic weight of the "baby boomers" going to retirement now.

The problem is in forced immigration: no one should have to leave his country in order to survive. That's the problem we should face. But that means ending our support to oppressive regimes as western countries do all around the world, and fighting against poverty. Two things the big coporations and the leaders who obey to them will never accept to do...

Please!! Just think!

Oh, go on, give us a clue.

Ok, go to iran or saudi arabia and try not to care majority of the population is muslim...
Who says Scotland needs more immigration? Besides economists who only care about the size of GDP (more people = bigger economy = more money or immigrants = cheap labour = money)
That's a fundamentalist Muslim majority. It's different.

And, really, we've got a giant GDP. Better than Mexico.

Edit: Oh, and have any of you read the comic in the latest issue of Time? It kind of puts things in perspective.

Ok, go to iran or saudi arabia and try not to care majority of the population is muslim...
Who says Scotland needs more immigration? Besides economists who only care about the size of GDP (more people = bigger economy = more money or immigrants = cheap labour = money)

Nonsense! They have laws which I am not in favour of. Why would I go there?

And Scotland needs more immigration so that it can sustain itself. With families averaging 1.1 child, it's not hard to see what's happening there. Besides, you've yet to give me an argument why someone shouldn't be allowed to come to the country, aside from personal beliefs which are none of my business anyway.

but american immigration is a problem....

Mexico has the 14th largest GDP in the world but they have so much of the wealth in so few that they need a revolution and us letting all the poor into the US for pity is not helping people realize to revolt.

And other nations citizens like the Philippines have applied back in 1983 to become americans and they still are in line waiting.....

How can anyone allow the 11 million illegal hispanics in here when other people clearly want it just as bad and are doing it legally

Did I just follow that correctly? In order to solve the perceived problem of illegal immigration in the US support should be given to the Zapatistas?

And what, exactly, is wrong with having a population which are Muslim in the majority?

The same with a population which are Christian in the majority: religion makes it easier to manipulate people and drive them to fanatism. A population which a majority of atheist is much better ;) But Islam is no worse and no better than Christianism in that regard. And it's only a risk, a "easier to", most believers are not fanatics.

Ok, go to iran or saudi arabia and try not to care majority of the population is muslim...

Try going to the Vatican and try not to care that the majority of the population are Papists.

The same with a population which are Christian in the majority: religion makes it easier to manipulate people and drive them to fanatism. A population which a majority of atheist is much better ;) But Islam is no worse and no better than Christianism in that regard. And it's only a risk, a "easier to", most believers are not fanatics.

...but looked at from a global perspectve we already have the non-religious/atheists/agnostics outnumbered by Christians alone, never mind other major religions.

Hopefully, you'd realise that there's a wide spectrum between being anti-immigrant and neo-nazi

One can still be both, as you exhibit.

The same with a population which are Christian in the majority: religion makes it easier to manipulate people and drive them to fanatism. A population which a majority of atheist is much better ;) But Islam is no worse and no better than Christianism in that regard. And it's only a risk, a "easier to", most believers are not fanatics.
Ughh. I hate the steoriotypical "Christians=Fanatics". Serously, a very small minority which get's the most media time gives Christians a bad name. You're right about the Muslims, though.

Instead of just criticizing everyone, put forward some arguments yourself.

What do you think of Norway when u hear it? if anything? What'll Norway be like with majority non-ethnic-norwegian/scandinavian population? Maybe it'll be even a better place, who knows? But we can all agree that it'd be very different. That difference means the destruction of norwegian culture, in my mind. And I dont want that happening...

What do you think of Norway when u hear it? if anything? What'll Norway be like with majority non-ethnic-norwegian/scandinavian population? Maybe it'll be even a better place, who knows? But we can all agree that it'd be very different. That difference means the destruction of norwegian culture, in my mind. And I dont want that happening...
They might assimilate, you know.

Ok, go to iran or saudi arabia and try not to care majority of the population is muslim...
Who says Scotland needs more immigration? Besides economists who only care about the size of GDP (more people = bigger economy = more money or immigrants = cheap labour = money)It is also means sustainability. Without certain population sizes places just shut down from being too economically ineffcient.

I don't care that SA and Iran are majority muslim countries. I'm far more concerned about the governments. The Saudis don't get any choice in their government. And the Iranians are only allowed state-sanctiond choices. Though Iran is getting better, and has been for a while. But I'd probably blame most of their problems on the the US and UK and their role in destablising the country in the past century. Iran had a nice progressive and democratic government at the beginning of the century. Only it insisted on having a state owned oil company which the UK and US didn't like. Then they had a a dictator for the best part of half a century.

What do you think of Norway when u hear it?

Varg Vikernes burning down churches.

Immigration is the death of all culture, it needs to be stopped specially in Europe.

:upyours: to immigrants

Immigration is the death of all culture, it needs to be stopped specially in Europe.

:upyours: to immigrants
Yay! Flamebait! Trolling!

If that's your culture, it needs to be replaced.

They might assimilate, you know.

NO they'll be always different. You cant except them to totally ignore their heritage. Immigration = end of local culture

Immigration is the death of all culture, it needs to be stopped specially in Europe.

:upyours: to immigrantsPuppet Master, reveal yourself.

Immigration is the death of all culture, it needs to be stopped specially in Europe.

:upyours: to immigrants

I wouldnt give them the finger...just deport them peacefully to their home countries. Maybe help them financially too...We are already paying their unemployment benefits anyways...

NO they'll be always different. You cant except them to totally ignore their heritage. Immigration = end of local culture
Well, than, I guess us Americans will have to leave the US because we destroyed Native American culture. Culture changes over time. Just ask the Romans.

What do you think of Norway when u hear it? if anything? What'll Norway be like with majority non-ethnic-norwegian/scandinavian population? Maybe it'll be even a better place, who knows? But we can all agree that it'd be very different. That difference means the destruction of norwegian culture, in my mind. And I dont want that happening...

I do not think that will be the case.

I'll take Australia, which is my country. We have a great deal of immigrants here, and the official government policy is that they are welcome. As an example, many arabic people in Australia refer to each other and their friends as "habib." In Arabic, it means "Lover" or "Darling" and no one in the middle east would dare to say that to someone who wasn't very close to them.

Why do they do it in my country? Because "Habib" is the Arabic version of the Australian "Mate!" As in "G'Day mate!"

Cultural interaction works in both ways. Australians take their shoes off in the house and eat rice, where fifty years ago they would not. But who cares? We still are "Australian!" Any culture we have is ours, no matter what it is! I mean, would we all be wearing that fancy 18th century clothing and engaging in duels? Of course not! Our culture has changed, yet remained the same, and immigrants tap into that and make it their own, just like the Habibs out there.

One can still be both, as you exhibit.

Do I? hmmm, maybe u are delusional?...I dont think condemning rape or pedophilia counts as neo-nazism...

What do you think of Norway when u hear it? if anything?

Death Metal. Agreeable economic system.

What'll Norway be like with majority non-ethnic-norwegian/scandinavian population?

What makes you think it'll get to that point?

I wouldnt give them the finger...just deport them peacefully to their home countries. Maybe help them financially too...We are already paying their unemployment benefits anyways...Quoted for when you inevitably start talking about how immigrants steal our jobs.

Anyway we'll see how great it is when Netherlands gets a majority muslim population 70 years later...

I will not let that happen!

Do I? hmmm, maybe u are delusional?...I dont think condemning rape or pedophilia counts as neo-nazism...

Were that what we were talking about in the other thread, you might have a point. However, as no one was talking about rape or pedophilia, your point collapses.

edit: Well, no one besides Dobbsworld.

I dislike unskilled non whites that can't play sport.

Do I? hmmm, maybe u are delusional?...I dont think condemning rape or pedophilia counts as neo-nazism...
Oh God...please tell me we haven't been hit by Dark Shadowy Nexus's site again...damn pados.

Quoted for when you inevitably start talking about how immigrants steal our jobs.

Let's put it this way.

If an immigrant is willing to work harder than you, for less money, why should you have a job at all?

Just a thought.

I dislike unskilled non whites that can't play sport.
Well...do you dislike unskilled whites that can't play sports?

NO they'll be always different. You cant except them to totally ignore their heritage. Immigration = end of local culture


If the culture can't survive on its own merits, perhaps it does not deserve saving? Obsolete ideas can always be read about in the history books and seen in museums.

Also, you seem to hit a stumbling block. If Norway gains a vast majority muslim population, there are three reasons and assumptions for it.

Firstly, Norwegians don't breed and are dying out.
Secondly, there are approximately infinity billion muslims, if there are enough to fill Norway (and by extension in your argument, the rest of the west), and not make a dent in the population of the middle east.
Thirdly, that Westerners are just waiting to be approached and converted to islam to make up the vast majority.

All of these are unlikely. Norwegians aren't dying out, I believe that the population is stagnating. Secondly, there is a limit to how many people can immigrate, and it is not enough to get a majority muslim populace in the west without emptying the middle-east.
Thirdly, most people are quite comfortable in their own views.

Quoted for when you inevitably start talking about how immigrants steal our jobs.

No, I'm more considering a cultural aspect. They are economically beneficial. Cheap labour for rich people to get richer....

Death Metal. Agreeable economic system.



What makes you think it'll get to that point?

Simple mathematics...

I am against illegal immigration. I cannot see how people think it is ok for someone to come into another country illegally, and they see it as ok. If it is ok for someone to come into your country without permission, then it should be ok for someone to enter your house without permission.

I say to put up towers every so often along the boarder, and stick a sniper or two on each tower. Pay them by the head. If there were a sign-up sheet, I may sign up for it.

If the culture can't survive on its own merits, perhaps it does not deserve saving? Obsolete ideas can always be read about in the history books and seen in museums.

Also, you seem to hit a stumbling block. If Norway gains a vast majority muslim population, there are three reasons and assumptions for it.

Firstly, Norwegians don't breed and are dying out.
Secondly, there are approximately infinity billion muslims, if there are enough to fill Norway (and by extension in your argument, the rest of the west), and not make a dent in the population of the middle east.
Thirdly, that Westerners are just waiting to be approached and converted to islam to make up the vast majority.

All of these are unlikely. Norwegians aren't dying out, I believe that the population is stagnating. Secondly, there is a limit to how many people can immigrate, and it is not enough to get a majority muslim populace in the west without emptying the middle-east.
Thirdly, most people are quite comfortable in their own views.Heh, have you read "Prayers for the Asassin?"
:D

No, I'm more considering a cultural aspect. They are economically beneficial. Cheap labour for rich people to get richer....

Many immigrants move because they admire the countries they move to, with your rights to privacy, the rule of law, representative democracy. They want these things too! If they are willing to work to get a chance to enjoy these things, why shouldn't we let them?

Simple mathematics...

Simple mathematics also tells us that by 2019 one third of the world's population will be Elvis impersonators.

Immigration is generally a good thing. Good for the economy we get new jobs some diversity in the country and all those other benefits. I do kinda take the philosophy of "when in rome do as the romans do". I can understand why Holland take such a cautious approach to it. Frankly if you hate liberal drug laws and a socially liberal society DON'T come to live in Holland and start bitching about it.

If I can't go to the middle east and walk around in a bathing suit eating pork and some other western stuff :rolleyes: should we extend the right for them to do the opposite when they come hear...

I will not let that happen!

I DOOO HOPE u succeed...Just do it in a non violent way...

Heh, have you read "Prayers for the Asassin?"
:D

I don't believe so - the name isn't familiar at any rate - why?

I am against illegal immigration. I cannot see how people think it is ok for someone to come into another country illegally, and they see it as ok. If it is ok for someone to come into your country without permission, then it should be ok for someone to enter your house without permission.

I say to put up towers every so often along the boarder, and stick a sniper or two on each tower. Pay them by the head. If there were a sign-up sheet, I may sign up for it.
That's sick. For one, it's damned impossible to get into the US legally. Don't say it is, because it takes YEARS. And country and house are different things entirely. A house is where you personally dwell. A nation is where millions dwell. A nation should be willing to accept more.

Sniping immigrants? I guess the native Americans should have killed us, eh?

I don't believe so - the name isn't familiar at any rate - why?
It's a book about the whole of the US becoming a Muslim majority. It's a great book.

I am Both American and Texan. (if you don't get the point I'll explain)

Texas is currently 44% Hispanic and the growth rate of Hispanics are 20% higher than That of any other group. Plus the Mexicans keep pouring over into Texas and California. I do support Immigration, but not Illegaly as is the case here. I also support the wall that Congress trieds to get approved.

And Yes, I realise that anyone who supports this kind of a statement is going to get a lot of Flak, but thats just the way I feel.

I am Both American and Texan. (if you don't get the point I'll explain)

Texas is currently 44% Hispanic and the growth rate of Hispanics are 20% higher than That of any other group. Plus the Mexicans keep pouring over into Texas and California. I do support Immigration, but not Illegaly as is the case here. I also support the wall that Congress trieds to get approved.

And Yes, I realise that anyone who supports this kind of a statement is going to get a lot of Flak, but thats just the way I feel.
That's respectable. I just believe legal immigration should be easier.

I am Both American and Texan. (if you don't get the point I'll explain)

Texas is currently 44% Hispanic and the growth rate of Hispanics are 20% higher than That of any other group.

And this is relevant, how?

That's sick. For one, it's damned impossible to get into the US legally. Don't say it is, because it takes YEARS. And country and house are different things entirely. A house is where you personally dwell. A nation is where millions dwell. A nation should be willing to accept more.

Sniping immigrants? I guess the native Americans should have killed us, eh?

Well it should take years in order for a legal immigrant to be able to come here. Do you trust everyone you meet without question, or do you want to know about them first? A house is where you personally dwell, and a nation is where millions personally dwell. I am all for immigration, as long as the immigrant is coming here legally. And you are right, the Native Americans should have killed the pilgrims. I am part Cherokee and feel that the pilgrims should not have been allowed off of the boat. And if you think that illegal immigration is ok, why don't you try to enter into Mexico and demand things like the ability to wave the American flag and have everything written in English as well.

Did you know that the Mexican government makes and distributes fliers in Mexico telling their people how to enter our country illegally? You may want to remember that if the immigration bill passes and you lose your job to a fence-jumper that has not been in the country for two weeks. When you lose your job like that, remember that I will be laughing.

Simple mathematics also tells us that by 2019 one third of the world's population will be Elvis impersonators.

Dont be such an idiot...
Low native birth rates (below replacement level)+ non native immigration + high non native birth rates

Let's put it this way.

If an immigrant is willing to work harder than you, for less money, why should you have a job at all?

Just a thought.Because society isn't a race to the bottom. If they're willing to work harder then they should get the job for the same money. However I doubt they'd want to go after the jobs I go after if they're in it for the money. They're already low wages in comparisson to other sectors and I worked a shit load of over-time for free because I believed in what I was doing.

However, you make it sound like there is a chronic shortage of jobs with your statement. When in fact we're heading for a chronic shortage of workers with the retirement of the baby boomers.

Btw my arguments dont apply to usa or canada or etc, whites arent indigenous to there. What I'm talking about is Europe. Non-european immigration to europe means the end of european culture(s).
Btw we can see what white immigration did to native americans. Their culture and civilization are destroyed and they are reduced to living in small reserves. Maybe that's what'll happen in 2100 in Norway. We'll live in our small christian/atheist reserves where sharia law doesnt apply...

Dont be such an idiot...
Low native birth rates (below replacement level)+ non native immigration + high non native birth rates

Dude No. The real equations are,

Low Native Birth Rates + Non native immigration != high non native birth rate.

The real equation is

Low HIGHLY EDUCATED Native Birth Rate;

High POORLY EDUCATED non native birth rate;

non native Highly educated immigration != non native poorly educated birth rate;

non native highly educated birth rate < non native poorly educated birth rate;

Highly educated birth rate < poorly educated birth rate.

The fact they are immigrants has little, if anything to do with a birth rate. Just that smarter people realise how much of a chore raising kids is and choose not to.

Dont be such an idiot...

Huh? Are you claiming that simple mathematics doesn't tell us that one third of the world population will be Elvis impersomators?

Low native birth rates (below replacement level)+ non native immigration + high non native birth rates

Norway birth rate per 1000 population: 11.46
Norway death rate per 1000 population: 9.4

Source: CIA factbook.

How is 11.46 < 9.4?

Your hidden assumption: that all the non-natives are Muslims.

Dude No. The real equations are,

Low Native Birth Rates + Non native immigration != high non native birth rate.

The real equation is

Low HIGHLY EDUCATED Native Birth Rate;

High POORLY EDUCATED non native birth rate;

non native Highly educated immigration != non native poorly educated birth rate;

non native highly educated birth rate < non native poorly educated birth rate;

Highly educated birth rate < poorly educated birth rate.

The fact they are immigrants has little, if anything to do with a birth rate. Just that smarter people realise how much of a chore raising kids is and choose not to.

!= means not equal?
I didnt make a equation which claimed low Native Birth Rates and Non native immigration equals high non native birth rate.

Well it should take years in order for a legal immigrant to be able to come here. Do you trust everyone you meet without question, or do you want to know about them first? A house is where you personally dwell, and a nation is where millions personally dwell. I am all for immigration, as long as the immigrant is coming here legally. And you are right, the Native Americans should have killed the pilgrims. I am part Cherokee and feel that the pilgrims should not have been allowed off of the boat. And if you think that illegal immigration is ok, why don't you try to enter into Mexico and demand things like the ability to wave the American flag and have everything written in English as well.

Did you know that the Mexican government makes and distributes fliers in Mexico telling their people how to enter our country illegally? You may want to remember that if the immigration bill passes and you lose your job to a fence-jumper that has not been in the country for two weeks. When you lose your job like that, remember that I will be laughing.
Yes, because the illegals are taking all jobs, yeah right. If an illegal can do a job better than me, he deserves that job.

Dont be such an idiot...
Low native birth rates (below replacement level)+ non native immigration + high non native birth rates

this one is better....
equation of europe:
Low native birth rates (below replacement level)+ non native immigration + high non native birth rates = european extinction

besides me...just curious

Meh... I'm an immigrant. I'm a German living in Ireland.... and yeah, I'm very much against myself. :rolleyes:

Ughh. I hate the steoriotypical "Christians=Fanatics". Serously, a very small minority which get's the most media time gives Christians a bad name. You're right about the Muslims, though.

I never said that most christians were fanatics, I said "most believers are not fanatics.". And that applies to muslims, too.

!= means not equal?
I didnt make a equation which claimed low Native Birth Rates and Non native immigration equals high non native birth rate.

Yes, in computer science != means "Not equal to."

Whatever it is, it is not the fact that someone is an immigrant which makes them spawn more mewling babies, but the fact that they are poorly educated. There is a reason why the highly educated western european nations have less children than the less well educated western europeans (Like the large "White Trash" family).

We need more freedom, not less, you *********

Simple mathematics also tell us that the lack of pirates is the cause of global warming. Seriously, look at the stats. In the past 200 years, the number of pirates has gone down while global warming has gone up!!!

We need more freedom, not less, you *********
This is a discussion forum, not one where you curse at someone and refuse to even consider that they might be right.

Yes, because the illegals are taking all jobs, yeah right. If an illegal can do a job better than me, he deserves that job.

He, or she, may not work better than you, but they sure are cheaper than you.

Simple mathematics also tell us that the lack of pirates is the cause of global warming. Seriously, look at the stats. In the past 200 years, the number of pirates has gone down while global warming has gone up!!!

Quoted for Emphasis and Dedication to his Noodly appendage.

He, or she, may not work better than you, but they sure are cheaper than you.
Than it's the employer whose being a bastard and breaking the law who is at fault.

Huh? Are you claiming that simple mathematics doesn't tell us that one third of the world population will be Elvis impersomators?



Norway birth rate per 1000 population: 11.46
Norway death rate per 1000 population: 9.4

Source: CIA factbook.

How is 11.46 < 9.4?

Your hidden assumption: that all the non-natives are Muslims.

God! maybe I should have been clearer...
In norway's case:
native: ethnic norwegian or at least ethnic scandinavian
In europes case:
native: ethnic european

He, or she, may not work better than you, but they sure are cheaper than you.

Right.

So a Supreme Court judge who earns $350k a year (Hefty as it is) is less qualified in the law than a $15k a DAY hotshot commercial barrister?

No one steals jobs off anyone else. A person succeeds in showing an employer that they have the requisite skills to be hired.

Meh... I'm an immigrant. I'm a German living in Ireland.... and yeah, I'm very much against myself. :rolleyes:

Clearly a german in ireland and a muslim or chineese in ireland are different things...Beside germans arent moving to ireland in hordes...

God! maybe I should have been clearer...
In norway's case:
native: ethnic norwegian or at least ethnic scandinavian
In europes case:
native: ethnic european

So it is ethnicity that is your real concern, and the whole Muslim malarky was all just a smokescreen?

Clearly a german in ireland and a muslim or chineese in ireland are different things...Beside germans arent moving to ireland in hordes...

Yes, the Chinese community as a whole contribute to Irish cultural life, whereas there is no unified German community in Ireland.

Why are you implying that Chinese or German people cannot be Muslims?

Simple mathematics also tell us that the lack of pirates is the cause of global warming. Seriously, look at the stats. In the past 200 years, the number of pirates has gone down while global warming has gone up!!!

The display of your intelligence is more amusing...

He, or she, may not work better than you, but they sure are cheaper than you.

That's a problem with making immigrants illegal, and that's another for which immigrants should be allowed. As I saw on a comic flyer once, a CEO speaking with a politician and saying "hey, don't give them papers, if they become legal they may start to ask for a working contract and the respect of the working code !".

Illegal immigration is a tool used by companies owners to lower the cost of work, and to pressure to lower wages and to damage the social systems. That's why the right is so against immigration: not to prevent it (you can't, people fleeing from death will always come) but to make it illegal, and to give to corpration owners a cheap, servant working force, which can't complain or ask for rights, because they are illegal.

The only solution is to make them legal. It's what they did in Spain, and guess what ? The hole of social security system shrinked by a lot ! CEOs had to pay the taxes, now...

Clearly a german in ireland and a muslim or chineese in ireland are different things...Beside germans arent moving to ireland in hordes...

Actually, no. The people moving here in hordes are mostly Eastern Europeans and Asians.
And what would my religion have to do with my immigration?

Clearly a german in ireland and a muslim or chineese in ireland are different things...Beside germans arent moving to ireland in hordes...

How are they different? A Chinese from Hong Kong understands English, knows British customs, and likely gets along better with Britons than a German ever will. Same with a Muslim Pakistani, who also likely grew up with knowledge of the British culture.

Is this a cultural or an ethnic issue? If it's ethnic, you have no case whatsoever.

Finally, somebody who agrees with me. I just don't think immigration is really a good thing. You have a country called France, it should be occupied by ethnic French. Plus, you can't just let through anyone and everyone like the Europeans are. It results in culture clash. Hear about that school riot in Berlin? A whole school of muslims rioting? What's up with that?

So it is ethnicity that is your real concern, and the whole Muslim malarky was all just a smokescreen?

Will you deny the link between ethnicity and culture? And yeah, I'm not anti-muslim. I hope they live happily, as they wish, in their own countries or immigration countries like brazil or canada...just NOT in Norway or Scandinavia or Europe

Finally, somebody who agrees with me. I just don't think immigration is really a good thing. You have a country called France, it should be occupied by ethnic French. Plus, you can't just let through anyone and everyone like the Europeans are. It results in culture clash. Hear about that school riot in Berlin? A whole school of muslims rioting? What's up with that?

Oh yes, and Melbourne isn't a seething potpourri of Greek, Italian, and Chinese "clashing" in a violent manner. :P

Sheesh, as an Aussie in a big city like Melbourne I'd have thought you'd understand how legal immigration is pretty much harmless, in fact cool. I mean, I'd never have learnt about Greek, Chinese or Indian culture if I wasn't exposed to it in a big city...

How are they different? A Chinese from Hong Kong understands English, knows British customs, and likely gets along better with Britons than a German ever will. Same with a Muslim Pakistani, who also likely grew up with knowledge of the British culture.

Is this a cultural or an ethnic issue? If it's ethnic, you have no case whatsoever.

Most Germans learn English, and as a country formally occupied by the UK, it's ideals and social laws are similar to that of Ireland.

How are they different? A Chinese from Hong Kong understands English, knows British customs, and likely gets along better with Britons than a German ever will. Same with a Muslim Pakistani, who also likely grew up with knowledge of the British culture.

Is this a cultural or an ethnic issue? If it's ethnic, you have no case whatsoever.

No case? Why not? Is it so evil of me to hope that there'll be natural blonds 300 years later?

Oh yes, and Melbourne isn't a seething potpourri of Greek, Italian, and Chinese "clashing" in a violent manner. :P

Sheesh, as an Aussie in a big city like Melbourne I'd have thought you'd understand how legal immigration is pretty much harmless, in fact cool. I mean, I'd never have learnt about Greek, Chinese or Indian culture if I wasn't exposed to it in a big city...

Those guys are cool. They don't clash. They usually just mingle.

Besides, I see the US and Australia as hubs, where anybody from anywhere can live.

Finally, somebody who agrees with me. I just don't think immigration is really a good thing. You have a country called France, it should be occupied by ethnic French.

What is an "ethnic french" ? Celts that inhabited Gaul before the roman came ? The roman who invaded Gaul during Caesar time ? The Francs who invaded Gaul during the fall of the roman empire ? The nordic who invaded the north of France a few times during middle ages ? The european we "imported" during the beginning of the XXest century ? The african who participated in WW1 or WW2 on France side and who staid there afterwards ? The north african we "imported" after WW2 to rebuild the country, who staid there, and had their sons and now their grandsons or great grandsons born there ?

There is no "ethnic french". France is a country of immigration, and always was, as are most of the countries.

That's a problem with making immigrants illegal, and that's another for which immigrants should be allowed. As I saw on a comic flyer once, a CEO speaking with a politician and saying "hey, don't give them papers, if they become legal they may start to ask for a working contract and the respect of the working code !".

Illegal immigration is a tool used by companies owners to lower the cost of work, and to pressure to lower wages and to damage the social systems. That's why the right is so against immigration: not to prevent it (you can't, people fleeing from death will always come) but to make it illegal, and to give to corpration owners a cheap, servant working force, which can't complain or ask for rights, because they are illegal.

The only solution is to make them legal. It's what they did in Spain, and guess what ? The hole of social security system shrinked by a lot ! CEOs had to pay the taxes, now...

A little off subject, but do you think that it is ok for someone to receive gov't assistance such as welfare, and be allowed to have more children? If so, they why? I see it as 'if you have the time to get knocked up, then you had the time to find a job,' and I would take away their welfare because it is people like that who drain our economy. What do you think will happen if you give amnesty to all of the illegal immigrants?

Oh yes, and Melbourne isn't a seething potpourri of Greek, Italian, and Chinese "clashing" in a violent manner. :P

Sheesh, as an Aussie in a big city like Melbourne I'd have thought you'd understand how legal immigration is pretty much harmless, in fact cool. I mean, I'd never have learnt about Greek, Chinese or Indian culture if I wasn't exposed to it in a big city...

I'm talking about Europe here, not immigration societies like Australia. Debate them in another thread please...

Will you deny the link between ethnicity and culture? And yeah, I'm not anti-muslim. I hope they live happily, as they wish, in their own countries or immigration countries like brazil or canada...just NOT in Norway or Scandinavia or Europe

Exactly. You've got to allocate some countries for immigration, then the rest stay as they are.

Will you deny the link between ethnicity and culture?

No, but I'm not the one leaping from one term to the other according to which one currently seems tio help my argument.

And yeah, I'm not anti-muslim. I hope they live happily, as they wish, in their own countries or immigration countries like brazil or canada...just NOT in Norway or Scandinavia or Europe

So you are happy enough for Scandinavia to take non-Muslim non-ethnically-Scandinavian immigrants?

There is no "ethnic french". France is a country of immigration, and always was, as are most of the countries.

Sure there are. The white dudes who clash with the Germans and the British every 60 years.

No one steals jobs off anyone else. A person succeeds in showing an employer that they have the requisite skills to be hired.

When it happens to you, your thoughts will change on the subject.

So you are happy enough for Scandinavia to take non-Muslim non-ethnically-Scandinavian immigrants?

IMO, it depends what you mean by "ethnic."

IMO, it depends what you mean by "ethnic."

Ask Ny Nordland, it is, after all, his beliefs I'm trying to understand here.

A little off subject, but do you think that it is ok for someone to receive gov't assistance such as welfare, and be allowed to have more children? If so, they why? I see it as 'if you have the time to get knocked up, then you had the time to find a job,' and I would take away their welfare because it is people like that who drain our economy. What do you think will happen if you give amnesty to all of the illegal immigrants?

The welfare for children is an investement. We are told every day that in Europe, we don't have anough children, and too much old people, and that's why our social systems have holes. Well, in reality, they have holes because of all the tax cuts, but if you forget that, it's not that false. We have, in Europe, a lack of children and too many eldery people. Immigrants coming with children are GOOD for our economy, at least for the future.

And for the "they don't work" part, it's not by choice, it's because they are discriminated. The vast majority of them want to work.

When it happens to you, your thoughts will change on the subject.

True. Here in Aus, they're just importing workers from the Philippines and whatnot.

True. Here in Aus, they're just importing workers from the Philippines and whatnot.

Except we have a ridiculous shortage of skilled and unskilled labour here.

Immigrants coming with children are GOOD for our economy, at least for the future.

But not so good for native culture and customs, ja?

What is an "ethnic french" ? Celts that inhabited Gaul before the roman came ? The roman who invaded Gaul during Caesar time ? The Francs who invaded Gaul during the fall of the roman empire ? The nordic who invaded the north of France a few times during middle ages ? The european we "imported" during the beginning of the XXest century ? The african who participated in WW1 or WW2 on France side and who staid there afterwards ? The north african we "imported" after WW2 to rebuild the country, who staid there, and had their sons and now their grandsons or great grandsons born there ?

There is no "ethnic french". France is a country of immigration, and always was, as are most of the countries.

/begin sarcasm Yeah and we are all africans because humans evolved in africa...Actually ethnic french might also mean monkeys since they are soo close to us genetically or maybe dolphins...Lets be one world, no differences, everyone like the other. Ignore differences, be politically correct./end sarcasm...

so are u suggesting that ethnic french simply means human? Can u be this blind? Maybe it's media brain washing? Maybe it's because u simply cant think originally and repeat what majority says...ex: multi culturilism is good....

No case? Why not? Is it so evil of me to hope that there'll be natural blonds 300 years later?

I hate to break it to you but as a recessive gene, it WILL die out. Naturally. Black haired people or not.

Sorry man.

But on the other issue, indeed, Germany has a completely different system of law and society to Britain.

Put it this way. If you you told a Hong Konger that the Taosiarch of Ireland is the Prime Minister, he'll know how he works in a westminster parliament, which Ireland sort of has. His knowledge of the law will be Ireland's Common Law, which is Britain's Common Law. In fact, until very recently, India and Hong Kong's final court of appeal was the UK Privy Council court.

German? he'll be utterly surprised as to why there isn't proportional representation in the UK or Irish Parliament.

It's a matter of cultural integration. Ethnicity has nothing to do with anything, really. A german born in England probably doesn't know any German at all (Or speaks it badly) and is british in manners and custom more than German. Why else do most Irish speak English when there's the Irish language? because they were brought up in the British tradition.

Except we have a ridiculous shortage of skilled and unskilled labour here.

Really? According to a show on TV, these jobs aren't even advertised in Aus. Because cheap labour is wanted.

When it happens to you, your thoughts will change on the subject.
The tech field I am in is already saturated with all kinds of immagrents, you know what I love it

It challanges me to be the best
Unlike many I am not content to give up but rather I worked and made myself more desirable to employers by being the most qualified

Finally, somebody who agrees with me. I just don't think immigration is really a good thing. You have a country called France, it should be occupied by ethnic French. Plus, you can't just let through anyone and everyone like the Europeans are. It results in culture clash. Hear about that school riot in Berlin? A whole school of muslims rioting? What's up with that?

It sounds like we are on the same page. Some people only think of how giving amnesty will affect the illegal immigrants, but they want to believe that it will not affect them in their own little world.

But not so good for native culture and customs, ja?

The natives can practise their culture whenever they want. Immigrants don't have to change that.

But not so good for native culture and customs, ja?

You are stating this as if 'native' culture and customs haven't already had a long experience of immigration.

I have nothing against legal imagration. If you go through the proper chanels to get your citizenship you are a human being, you have rights and liberties.

You enter my country illegaly you are just a piece of meat.

(I have said this several times prior)

Really? According to a show on TV, these jobs aren't even advertised in Aus. Because cheap labour is wanted.

But we don't have cheap labour. Look at housing prices.

Sure there are. The white dudes who clash with the Germans and the British every 60 years.

Even those "white dudes" are a mix of celts, romans, nordic, germans, francs, ... France is a nation, but french is not an ethny. And the majority of the immigrants, even from the muslim countries, are part of this nation. They may have some cultural differences, as there are between a french from britanny and a french from the mediteranan south: there are a lot of regions in France, with their specific cultures, traditions, and even languages/dialects. But they adhere to the values of France, to the nation, to "Liberté Égalité Fraternité", and they do it much more than some of those "white dudes" who speak about control, inequality, and law of the jungle "take care of yourself".

Exactly. You've got to allocate some countries for immigration, then the rest stay as they are.

EXACTLY!! North and South America and Aust&NZ are immigration countries. Except few countries, Europe, Africa and Asia should stay as they are. Now, that would be true diversity on our planet...

I hate to break it to you but as a recessive gene, it WILL die out. Naturally. Black haired people or not.

Nope. At least, not in the visible future. The myth of vanishing blondes has been debunked. Genes only disappear if they're obsolete or if they have a problem. The blonde gene still serves it's (speculated) purpose: attracting males. Gentlemen prefer blondes, right?

I have nothing against legal imagration. If you go through the proper chanels to get your citizenship you are a human being, you have rights and liberties.

You enter my country illegaly you are just a piece of meat.

(I have said this several times prior)

:headbang:

So someone who isn't a citizen of your country isn't a human being? I am not quite sure why illegally crossing over a border into another country suddenly makes you an inhuman monster. I'm against it, but not very much.

You are stating this as if 'native' culture and customs haven't already had a long experience of immigration.

Well, not in Europe.

You enter my country illegaly you are just a piece of meat.

What country is this?

Even those "white dudes" are a mix of celts, romans, nordic, germans, francs, ... France is a nation, but french is not an ethny. And the majority of the immigrants, even from the muslim countries, are part of this nation. They may have some cultural differences, as there are between a french from britanny and a french from the mediteranan south: there are a lot of regions in France, with their specific cultures, traditions, and even languages/dialects. But they adhere to the values of France, to the nation, to "Liberté Égalité Fraternité", and they do it much more than some of those "white dudes" who speak about control, inequality, and law of the jungle "take care of yourself".

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

EXACTLY!! North and South America and Aust&NZ are immigration countries. Except few countries, Europe, Africa and Asia should stay as they are. Now, that would be true diversity on our planet...
Naw I like the way that it is going now

Besides if you go back far enough in history just about every country is an "immigration country"

The welfare for children is an investement. We are told every day that in Europe, we don't have anough children, and too much old people, and that's why our social systems have holes. Well, in reality, they have holes because of all the tax cuts, but if you forget that, it's not that false. We have, in Europe, a lack of children and too many eldery people. Immigrants coming with children are GOOD for our economy, at least for the future.

And for the "they don't work" part, it's not by choice, it's because they are discriminated. The vast majority of them want to work.

I cannot see how it is good for our economy if someone is paid to sit at home and shoot out a child every nine months, let alone get off the boat or jump the fence and be able to collect welfare and social security when disabled veterans like me are told that we cannot collect said government help.

Maybe you can explain why someone who contributes nothing to society but future criminals, and those who came here against the laws, should be given government assistance when the people who actually served this country are denied the same assistance.

EXACTLY!! North and South America and Aust&NZ are immigration countries. Except few countries, Europe, Africa and Asia should stay as they are. Now, that would be true diversity on our planet...

Wtf? Please explain.

Well, not in Europe.

The entire history of Europe is a long succession of movement of peoples and cultures going back to the year dot and beyond... or are you suggesting we give the British Isles back to the Beaker People? - after all they got here first.

What country is this?

I was talking idealy. (Wishfull thinking)

The United States of America.

No, but I'm not the one leaping from one term to the other according to which one currently seems tio help my argument.



So you are happy enough for Scandinavia to take non-Muslim non-ethnically-Scandinavian immigrants?

I DONT WANT Scandinavia recieving non-ethnic-scandinavian immigration. Ethnic europeans are ok to a certain percentage of population...
And by ethnic scandinavian I dont mean the Sami...Maybe I should say viking?

Immigrants coming with children are GOOD for our economy, at least for the future

But not so good for native culture and customs, ja?

But if you already make enough money, then why would you care if others suffered? That could be the mentality of many people who feel that it is ok to just give amnesty to illegal immigrants. What's next, releasing all of the prisoners? 'But they said they would be nice...'

The entire history of Europe is a long succession of movement of peoples and cultures going back to the year dot and beyond... or are you suggesting we give the British Isles back to the Beaker People? - after all they got here first.

Oh please. Europe's had it's current basic structure for at least 1000 years, with a few changes. Why change what works?

And by ethnic scandinavian I dont mean the Sami...Maybe I should say viking?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the vast majority of Viking culture is one based on emigration, no?

The welfare for children is an investement. We are told every day that in Europe, we don't have anough children, and too much old people, and that's why our social systems have holes. Well, in reality, they have holes because of all the tax cuts, but if you forget that, it's not that false. We have, in Europe, a lack of children and too many eldery people. Immigrants coming with children are GOOD for our economy, at least for the future.

And for the "they don't work" part, it's not by choice, it's because they are discriminated. The vast majority of them want to work.

AHHH you are soo noble, wanting immigrants for money and do the dirty work which we wont do.(!)
If we dont have enough children, we must make more children. Most people dont make children because it's easier. Not because they dont want them...We should make it easier to have a family and encourage families....

When it happens to you, your thoughts will change on the subject.

I don't think so. I challenge anyone to do a better job than me. If he does (And some have!) I am happy to find another job.

People gotta eat, you know, not just you.

Naw I like the way that it is going now

Besides if you go back far enough in history just about every country is an "immigration country"

Not really. Like I said, the same integral structure has existed in Europe for over a millenia...

Oh please. Europe's had it's current basic structure for at least 1000 years, with a few changes. Why change what works?

*Looks at the bloody history of Europe over the last 100 years, never mind 1000.*

And you describe this as something that 'works'?

I hate to break it to you but as a recessive gene, it WILL die out. Naturally. Black haired people or not.

Sorry man.

But on the other issue, indeed, Germany has a completely different system of law and society to Britain.

Put it this way. If you you told a Hong Konger that the Taosiarch of Ireland is the Prime Minister, he'll know how he works in a westminster parliament, which Ireland sort of has. His knowledge of the law will be Ireland's Common Law, which is Britain's Common Law. In fact, until very recently, India and Hong Kong's final court of appeal was the UK Privy Council court.

German? he'll be utterly surprised as to why there isn't proportional representation in the UK or Irish Parliament.

It's a matter of cultural integration. Ethnicity has nothing to do with anything, really. A german born in England probably doesn't know any German at all (Or speaks it badly) and is british in manners and custom more than German. Why else do most Irish speak English when there's the Irish language? because they were brought up in the British tradition.


It wont die if we keep the immigrants out...

The natives can practise their culture whenever they want. Immigrants don't have to change that.

But in America, the immigrants have changed that. I have to watch everything I do because the immigrants in my city (arabs) can have you arrested for racial profiling, and all you have to do is look at them. I was jumped by two adult arabs when I was a teen, and they were across the street when the police showed up. I told the police that it was them who did it, and the police did nothing. The immigrants are taking over the country, and by being a native of the country, me and my kind are becoming the minority.

so are u suggesting that ethnic french simply means human?

I'm saying that there is no ethinc french, because France is and always was a nation of immigration, and a plural nation, with a lot of different cultures and traditions in different parts of the country.

Can u be this blind? Maybe it's media brain washing? Maybe it's because u simply cant think originally and repeat what majority says...ex: multi culturilism is good....

Actually, the media are saying quite the opposite... most of them are controlled by Sarkozy and his friends, Sarkozy being a fascist guy wanting to stop all immigrations and calling immigrants "racaille" (which means something like "scum"). They always emphasis on crimes commited in the suburbs with a lot of immigrants while they nearly never speak of crimes commited in the very bourgeois and white parts of France, and so on.

I don't think so. I challenge anyone to do a better job than me. If he does (And some have!) I am happy to find another job.

People gotta eat, you know, not just you.

Nobody cares how good you can do it. If you're slightly better than me, but I'm willing to work for half, well, you're fucked.

Oh please. Europe's had it's current basic structure for at least 1000 years, with a few changes. Why change what works?

Yeah tell that to the Byzantines... :D

Not really. Like I said, the same integral structure has existed in Europe for over a millenia...
Let me re quote the important part of my post "if you go back far enough in history"

Nobody cares how good you can do it. If you're slightly better than me, but I'm willing to work for half, well, you're fucked.

That depends on exact nature of the product and the forces of the marketplace.

:headbang:

So someone who isn't a citizen of your country isn't a human being? I am not quite sure why illegally crossing over a border into another country suddenly makes you an inhuman monster. I'm against it, but not very much.

Why don't you try to enter a country illegally and see how well you are treated. Why don't you demand that country to treat you as nicely as America treats their illegal immigrants. When you are done, let us know how well it went.

*Looks at the bloody history of Europe over the last 100 years, never mind 1000.*

And you describe this as something that 'works'?

Hey, we were just getting to the peace part. But, as if Europe has some conflict wish, they bring in random people with funny cultures.

Yeah tell that to the Byzantines... :D

The British, the Irish, the Spanish...

Naw I like the way that it is going now

Besides if you go back far enough in history just about every country is an "immigration country"

If you go enough far, you'll see you were a one cell swimming in ocean. So there's always a point that u should stop going far back....

Yeah tell that to the Byzantines... :D

One of the minor changes.

Let me re quote the important part of my post "if you go back far enough in history"

Hey, let's go back 100 millions years and give the planet back to the dinosaurs!

The British, the Irish, the Spanish...

What about the British and Irish? They're still hanging around their islands.

And the Spanish? They had their reconquista. Good for them.

I don't think so. I challenge anyone to do a better job than me. If he does (And some have!) I am happy to find another job.

People gotta eat, you know, not just you.

You are right, people do have to eat, and because I cannot receive gov't assistance because I was born here, I can only eat one meal a day. Maybe that is what I get for being born white, and for serving this country. And what makes you think that things will be better if illegal immigrants are allowed to stay and drain money from the economy?

Nobody cares how good you can do it. If you're slightly better than me, but I'm willing to work for half, well, you're fucked.

That's fine. My employer made a bad decision in firing me. It has happened before, I have had jobs where they've either wanted me to shift up into a higher skills position or resign because the minimum wage is lower for younger workers... That's their choice, and I don't begrudge them for it, nor the person now in the workforce.

What about the British and Irish? They're still hanging around their islands.

Irish invaded by Scots (who were originally Irish) and English.
English invaded by Normans.

I don't think so. I challenge anyone to do a better job than me. If he does (And some have!) I am happy to find another job.


Nobody cares how good you can do it. If you're slightly better than me, but I'm willing to work for half, well, you're fucked.

Couldn't have said it better. Skill means nothing when applicants are willing to work for 'pennies on the dollar.'

Hey, let's go back 100 millions years and give the planet back to the dinosaurs!

I completely agree..... They ran it better!

Irish invaded by Scots (who were originally Irish) and English.
English invaded by Normans.

I'll admit that I don't know Irish history. But who won that? The Irish, right? At the least, they weren't moved or displaced, they're still there.

And the Norman rule in England influenced them, but didn't last very long. After a few kings, the Anglo-Saxons came on back again.

One of the minor changes.

Oh don't tell me that. For 2000 years most of modern day Turkey spoke Greek. You can still see it NOW when Syrians look like fair haired greeks and are orthodox Christians.

Also, I don't understand you, Mr Jackal. Are you saying that you don't get benefits because you have a job? Well Duh. You got a job!

Are you saying that people rack off the government because of you paying taxes? Perhaps you have a case there, but if you live in the USA, that's very little they're taking from you personally, especially with Mr Bush's tax reforms.

If you DON'T have a job, then you should be able to get social security. An you say you have served your country? Surely you have an army pension! The USA looks after its own, especially veterans.

And it's been said so many times- an immigrant who works harder than you and has a job very likely is less of a drain on the economy than a native who is out of work likely is.

Oh don't tell me that. For 2000 years most of modern day Turkey spoke Greek. You can still see it NOW when Syrians look like fair haired greeks and are orthodox Christians.

Not the Byzantines fault they got displaced. Shit happens, but that was a minority event. It didn't happen all over Europe.

I'll admit that I don't know Irish history. But who won that? The Irish, right? At the least, they weren't moved or displaced, they're still there.

Yeah, it only took about 850 years to wrestle control of the majority* of the country back from the British: the culture and genepool of Ireland having been changed dramatically as a result.

As far as the Irish not having been moved or displaced: the population of Ireland prior to the potato famine (a situation exacerbated by British rule), the population of Ireland prior to the famine was about 6 million, about a third died of starvation and about a third emigrated. Even now the total population is only about 4 million.

* the six counties of the North still being under direct rule from Westminster, as we speak.


And the Norman rule in England influenced them, but didn't last very long. After a few kings, the Anglo-Saxons came on back again.

The point being that the Anglo-Saxon culture (which obviously enough was a product of invasions by Angles and Saxons) was influenced by the Norman culture, similarly for the genepool.

I'll admit that I don't know Irish history. But who won that? The Irish, right? At the least, they weren't moved or displaced, they're still there.

And the Norman rule in England influenced them, but didn't last very long. After a few kings, the Anglo-Saxons came on back again.

The last anglo saxon king of England was Edward the Confessor. He died somewhere around 1060.

I kid you not. I can give you a quick lowdown as they go...

1100-1350- Norman Kings
1350-1450- The Wars of the Roses (Norman Nobility duking it out for the Kingship)
1450-1600- English (Not Anglo Saxons) descended from the Norman Nobility
1600-1680- Scots
1680-1720- Dutch
1720-Now- Germans

In fact, the English motto of "Dieu et mon droit" is French, which goes to show how English the Kings of England have been- Not very.

Also, I don't understand you, Mr Jackal. Are you saying that you don't get benefits because you have a job? Well Duh. You got a job!

Are you saying that people rack off the government because of you paying taxes? Perhaps you have a case there, but if you live in the USA, that's very little they're taking from you personally, especially with Mr Bush's tax reforms.

If you DON'T have a job, then you should be able to get social security. An you say you have served your country? Surely you have an army pension! The USA looks after its own, especially veterans.

No, I can't get a job because of my disability, so I am going to school because my job in the Navy was classified and I cannot do the same job as a civilian. For my disability, I recieve $485/month which they feel is enough. And the tax reforms only work if you are in the upper-middle class income bracket and higher. You are right that I should be able to get social security, but this country does not care about its veterans as many would think. The usa has not looked after me, rather it gives me enough money to be broke from bills and helping out my family, that I am able to live on Ramen Noodles and bread. If I had the ability to go back in time, I would never have served because I had a better job and would not have become disabled. This country is less interested in helping its citizens, and more interested in looking good for the rest of the world. If I had the funds, I would leave this country and become a citizen of another country, but I would do so in accordance with that countries immigration laws because I do not want to be an illegal immigrant.

The last anglo saxon king of England was Edward the Confessor. He died somewhere around 1060.

I kid you not. I can give you a quick lowdown as they go...

1100-1350- Norman Kings
1350-1450- The Wars of the Roses (Norman Nobility duking it out for the Kingship)
1450-1600- English (Not Anglo Saxons) descended from the Norman Nobility
1600-1680- Scots
1680-1720- Dutch
1720-Now- Germans

In fact, the English motto of "Dieu et mon droit" is French, which goes to show how English the Kings of England have been- Not very.

Ahh, but what does all that not affect? Ethnicity. They're still the same basic people as 1000 years ago.

Americans debating illegal mexicans to another thread, PLEASE...
What I'm debating for, to put it more clearly....
Who supports 0(or very very very few) non-european immigration to europe?

No, I can't get a job because of my disability, so I am going to school because my job in the Navy was classified and I cannot do the same job as a civilian. For my disability, I recieve $485/month which they feel is enough. And the tax reforms only work if you are in the upper-middle class income bracket and higher. You are right that I should be able to get social security, but this country does not care about its veterans as many would think. The usa has not looked after me, rather it gives me enough money to be broke from bills and helping out my family, that I am able to live on Ramen Noodles and bread. If I had the ability to go back in time, I would never have served because I had a better job and would not have become disabled. This country is less interested in helping its citizens, and more interested in looking good for the rest of the world. If I had the funds, I would leave this country and become a citizen of another country, but I would do so in accordance with that countries immigration laws because I do not want to be an illegal immigrant.

Well, the USA isn't particularly interested in looking good for the rest of the world under the current administration :rolleyes: I sympathise with your situation, but it's not like the illegal immigrants have collapsed the American economy so utterly it can't afford to pay pensions to veterans. Illegal immigrants or no illegal immigrants, you would most likely be in the same situation.

I DONT WANT Scandinavia recieving non-ethnic-scandinavian immigration. Ethnic europeans are ok to a certain percentage of population...
And by ethnic scandinavian I dont mean the Sami...Maybe I should say viking?
Wouldn't you say that the Sami should go back to where they came from?

Oh don't tell me that. For 2000 years most of modern day Turkey spoke Greek. You can still see it NOW when Syrians look like fair haired greeks and are orthodox Christians.

Also, I don't understand you, Mr Jackal. Are you saying that you don't get benefits because you have a job? Well Duh. You got a job!

Are you saying that people rack off the government because of you paying taxes? Perhaps you have a case there, but if you live in the USA, that's very little they're taking from you personally, especially with Mr Bush's tax reforms.

If you DON'T have a job, then you should be able to get social security. An you say you have served your country? Surely you have an army pension! The USA looks after its own, especially veterans.

And it's been said so many times- an immigrant who works harder than you and has a job very likely is less of a drain on the economy than a native who is out of work likely is.

Turkey isnt in Europe, turks arent europeans...

Turkey isnt in Europe, turks arent europeans...Yes they are. ;)

Wouldn't you say that the Sami should go back to where they came from?

It isnt known exactly where they came from...They are speculating it was siberia. But I dont mind them, their numbers are too few and not increasing faster than us.

Ahh, but what does all that not affect? Ethnicity. They're still the same basic people as 1000 years ago.

It doesn't affect their ethnicity, but it does deeply impact on Culture.

You see, I would be able to understand English dating back to about 1350. In 1100, when Norman conquest was still raw, I would only have been able to talk to priests- who spoke Latin. English was Middle English, and nigh unintelligible to a modern speaker.

The growth of the Common Law, Parliament, all these things grew out of the Norman Conquest. Only the idea of Democracy lived on from the Anglo Saxons into the modern day, really.

It's a fascinating concept.

besides me...just curious


Only if they're illegal.

Yes they are. ;)

Well, looks like we have opposing views. I just don't consider a country with 3% of it's land in Europe to be a European country.

Turkey isnt in Europe, turks arent europeans...


Aren't they joining the European Union?

Yes they are. ;)

No, most norwegians or scandinavians dont think so. Most europeans wouldnt think so neither. EU politicans want them because...money....Turkey = big market = money. Another reason they want them is because they are too scared to make a non-politically correct comment. God forbid speaking frankly...

Well, looks like we have opposing views. I just don't consider a country with 3% of it's land in Europe to be a European country.

Do you consider Russia to be a European country or an Asian country?

It doesn't affect their ethnicity, but it does deeply impact on Culture.

You see, I would be able to understand English dating back to about 1350. In 1100, when Norman conquest was still raw, I would only have been able to talk to priests- who spoke Latin. English was Middle English, and nigh unintelligible to a modern speaker.

The growth of the Common Law, Parliament, all these things grew out of the Norman Conquest. Only the idea of Democracy lived on from the Anglo Saxons into the modern day, really.

It's a fascinating concept.

Yeah, but their cultures didn't conflict... the Normans just introduced new ideas.

Well, looks like we have opposing views. I just don't consider a country with 3% of it's land in Europe to be a European country.

Most of the Middle East used to be under French Dominions. I'd call it Europe.

Well, the USA isn't particularly interested in looking good for the rest of the world under the current administration :rolleyes: I sympathise with your situation, but it's not like the illegal immigrants have collapsed the American economy so utterly it can't afford to pay pensions to veterans. Illegal immigrants or no illegal immigrants, you would most likely be in the same situation.

Actually I was told that it was the illegal immigration situation that is the reason that I cannot receive social security, by a social security employee who said that funds were taken from social security to give free healthcare to the illegal immigrants. So they are a direct result of why I cannot receive assistance. But you are right in that lately the bush administration is not trying to look good in the international eyes, because bush is finishing what his 'daddy' couldn't. It is a personal war, and he does not care about the effects or opinions of his people. It wouldn't surprise me if bush were to magically find bin laden, or another major terrorist attack happens in america, and somehow bush is allowed to stay for a third term. More and more, the events of 1984 are surfacing in modern society; we are becoming less of a democracy, and more of a police state. And what is worse is that this country started out as a republic and became a democracy and nobody has a problem with that. Our votes do not even count, when it comes to presidential elections. It is the votes of the Electoral College that count. Sure the members are supposed to vote the same way their state does, but as we all saw in the last election, they are not required to and can vote however they want.

Do you consider Russia to be a European country or an Asian country?

Neither. They got huge european influence but they also got too much non-european influence to consider it european. So they are russian. period. In future european will mean EU citizen and they are too big to enter EU anyways.

Well, looks like we have opposing views. I just don't consider a country with 3% of it's land in Europe to be a European country.Then again, you don't live in Europe and you don't have EU citizenship, so your opinion on the matter is much less pertaining to the issue than mine ;)

Most of the Middle East used to be under French Dominions. I'd call it Europe.

Why are you constantly trying to stretch the meaning of European? You arent. So let us decide who is or who isnt...

Do you consider Russia to be a European country or an Asian country?

European, because it's culture is shared by European countries like Ukraine, Belraus, etc., and because it's most important cities are in Europe (Moscow, St.Petersburg, Volgograd, etc.).

Don't tell me that Turkey has European culture. They went out of their way to keep it out. Like the Hagia Sofia incident.

Yeah, but their cultures didn't conflict... the Normans just introduced new ideas.Are trying to suggest that the Anglo-Saxons got along with the Normans?

<snip>

Hypothetical situation- a country has a grand total of one dollar in its Social Security budgets. The healthcare budget is struggling, so that dollar is taken out and put into healthcare. Is it the healthcare budget's fault that there is not enough money for social security? Note that there's plenty of money in the economey.

Yeah, but their cultures didn't conflict... the Normans just introduced new ideas.

Does the term 'The Harrowing of the North' ring any bells?

Are you people 12?

Immigration is a necessity to keep our economies running. If you're afraid of being outbred by 'them,' get breeding, you xenophobic bigot.

Ny Nordland and Kievan-Prussia, you're giving Europe a bad name.

Turkey and Russia are both culturally European, but who the hell cares? We're all humans right? We have to share this one little planet, so we should get sharing. Not hogging all the resources and looking down on everyone that isn't blue eyed and blonde haired.

Are trying to suggest that the Anglo-Saxons got along with the Normans?

No. But there wasn't really a culture clash. The Normans didn't come in there and kill women for wearing the wrong clothes, for example.

Hypothetical situation- a country has a grand total of one dollar in its Social Security budgets. The healthcare budget is struggling, so that dollar is taken out and put into healthcare. Is it the healthcare budget's fault that there is not enough money for social security? Note that there's plenty of money in the economey.

I have no problem with shifting money to healthcare, because I have to go to Veterans Affairs hospitals, and they are horrible. I do have a problem with the money going to healthcare for people who are in this country illegally.

Hypothetical situation- a country has a grand total of one dollar in its Social Security budgets. The healthcare budget is struggling, so that dollar is taken out and put into healthcare. Is it the healthcare budget's fault that there is not enough money for social security? Note that there's plenty of money in the economey.

CANT YOU PEOPLE READ? Debate USA issues elsewhere, PLEASE...The thread got too big and it'd be hard for new people to read it completely

European, because it's culture is shared by European countries like Ukraine, Belraus, etc., and because it's most important cities are in Europe (Moscow, St.Petersburg, Volgograd, etc.).

Don't tell me that Turkey has European culture. They went out of their way to keep it out. Like the Hagia Sofia incident.France tries to keep other cultures out and that doesn't make it non-European.

Why are you constantly trying to stretch the meaning of European? You arent. So let us decide who is or who isnt...

Hey, people constantly stretch the meaning of "Asia" to include the central asian republics, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan...

I'm just saying, Turkey is a peripheral playerin Europe, but there are aspects to it which are just as European as, say, Greece, or Italy.

Most of the Middle East used to be under French Dominions. I'd call it Europe.

So the US is Europe to you? I wanna see what maps you're reading,

So plundering and taking over a country is not a culture clash. Funny man.

Are you people 12?

Immigration is a necessity to keep our economies running. If you're afraid of being outbred by 'them,' get breeding, you xenophobic bigot.

Ny Nordland and Kievan-Prussia, you're giving Europe a bad name.

Turkey and Russia are both culturally European, but who the hell cares? We're all humans right? We have to share this one little planet, so we should get sharing. Not hogging all the resources and looking down on everyone that isn't blue eyed and blonde haired.

Where are you from? What is your ethnicity?
Who says immigration is a necessity? Look at Japan...No good economic development but they are still wealthy.
In order to share our planet, do we have to allow ourselves being overrun? Immigrants got their homes anyway so they should let us be, in our own homes.

What do you think of Norway when u hear it? if anything...
Stagnant, decaying, stuffed with religious nationalistic zealot fringe groups. The sick old man of scandinavia. Only cultural part worth preserving is that of the Sami. Which has until recently been marginalized and prevented from speaking native language in school. And which you say are not 'true' scandinavians

Just a first thought.

France tries to keep other cultures out and that doesn't make it non-European.

Hehehehe, that's because they're in EUROPE.

Hey, people constantly stretch the meaning of "Asia" to include the central asian republics, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan...

I'm just saying, Turkey is a peripheral playerin Europe, but there are aspects to it which are just as European as, say, Greece, or Italy.

Dude, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan ARE in Asia. It's not stretched at all.

Where are you from? What is your ethnicity?
Who says immigration is a necessity? Look at Japan...No good economic development but they are still wealthy.
In order to share our planet, do we have to allow ourselves being overrun? Immigrants got their homes anyway so they should let us be, in our own homes.

They have homes in places like Iran. I'm sure you'd love to live in Iran.

Does the term 'The Harrowing of the North' ring any bells?

That was political. Willy didn't want them to have self-determination.

No. But there wasn't really a culture clash. The Normans didn't come in there and kill women for wearing the wrong clothes, for example.

I do not see a bigger culture clash than speaking a different language, having a different and to the natives completely arbitrary justice system, oh, and BRUTALLY TAXING THE HELL OUT OF THE ANGLO SAXON PEASANTRY BY NORMAN OVERLORDS.

Saxon murders of Normans got so bad that Henry II instituted a Murdrum fine that was liable to be paid by the nearest Saxon town if he found a murdered Norman, even if the killer could not be found.

Hey, people constantly stretch the meaning of "Asia" to include the central asian republics, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan...

I'm just saying, Turkey is a peripheral playerin Europe, but there are aspects to it which are just as European as, say, Greece, or Italy.

No, you arent european. It's extremely bossy of u to tell us who can be european or not. It's for us to decide...

So plundering and taking over a country is not a culture clash. Funny man.

Nope, it's not. You can attack a country without culture clashes. A good example would be the Russo-Polish war. They didn't have a culture clash, they just hated each other's guts.

They have homes in places like Iran. I'm sure you'd love to live in Iran.

NO, I wouldnt! What I'd love would be sending all iranians out of europe....

NO, I wouldnt! What I'd love would be sending all iranians out of europe....

That really wasn't sarcasm. :rolleyes:

No, you arent european. It's extremely bossy of u to tell us who can be european or not. It's for us to decide...
I never said that. I said that A case could be made that Turkey could be considered a part of Europe, one which I accept.

Deciding who is European or not is what is defined under the EU constitution.

Not to mention, if India and China are part of the same geographical region (Asia) with different cultures, religions, and (God forbid) "Ethnicities" Then what makes Turkey and Greece so different that requires Turkey to be placed in the "Definitely not Europe" basket?

I do not see a bigger culture clash than speaking a different language, having a different and to the natives completely arbitrary justice system, oh, and BRUTALLY TAXING THE HELL OUT OF THE ANGLO SAXON PEASANTRY BY NORMAN OVERLORDS.

Saxon murders of Normans got so bad that Henry II instituted a Murdrum fine that was liable to be paid by the nearest Saxon town if he found a murdered Norman, even if the killer could not be found.

You're not understanding the term "culture clash." They Normans and Anglo-Saxons fought because it was war. Not for a cultural reason.

I'm Dutch. With Indonesian great-grandmother. Mostly Frisian though.

The Japanese are working their asses of, and their economic growth is stifling.

What kind of house are you living in? Is it a straw hut in a shantytown? We (Western Europeans, Americans) are sucking the world dry, taking resources from everywhere, exploit workers for slave wages everywhere, and you've got the guts to be complainig about those few who escape from a shitty situation?

I cannot see how it is good for our economy if someone is paid to sit at home and shoot out a child every nine months, let alone get off the boat or jump the fence and be able to collect welfare and social security when disabled veterans like me are told that we cannot collect said government help.

One of the main problem of western european countries is the lack of children. We have more and more eldery, and less and less children. So having a population that has more children is a good point, for our economy.

Now, for the "shoot out a child every nine months" that's just complete bullshit. Even in immigrant families, families with more than 4 children are very rare.

For the fact that some people are lacking social security, I agree. But the problem is not in immigrants. Or if it is, it's of the use CEOs do of illegal immigrants as a way to avoid paying the taxes, and that would be fixed very easily by making them legal.

Maybe you can explain why someone who contributes nothing to society but future criminals,

That's just a racist judgement, with absolutely no link to the reality.

when the people who actually served this country are denied the same assistance.

Hum, should I remind you that the first lines of France army, in both WW1 and WW2 were African from the colonies ? They paid their share, and more than it, in the defense of France during the two wars. Should we kick their children now ?

That was political. Willy didn't want them to have self-determination.

Politics aren't cultural? If not then why fear political change from immigration?

You're not understanding the term "culture clash." They Normans and Anglo-Saxons fought because it was war. Not for a cultural reason.
Ok then, tell me what a culture clash is. I am interested in your definition. Think it out carefully and explain it so I can udnerstand what you mean.

Politics aren't cultural? If not then why fear political change from immigration?

We don't fear political change. We fear political change due to cultural conflict.

Not to mention, if India and China are part of the same geographical region (Asia) with different cultures, religions, and (God forbid) "Ethnicities" Then what makes Turkey and Greece so different that requires Turkey to be placed in the "Definitely not Europe" basket?

Geography. And also the whole thing about Turkey being poorer and predominantly muslim.

I never said that. I said that A case could be made that Turkey could be considered a part of Europe, one which I accept.

Deciding who is European or not is what is defined under the EU constitution.

Not to mention, if India and China are part of the same geographical region (Asia) with different cultures, religions, and (God forbid) "Ethnicities" Then what makes Turkey and Greece so different that requires Turkey to be placed in the "Definitely not Europe" basket?

Why do you care to stretch the meaning of European? That was what I'm wondering? Why cant u just respect whom we accept as european or not?
You arent european, why do you care who is?

Actually I was told that it was the illegal immigration situation that is the reason that I cannot receive social security,

To say that you didn't deserve any social security either if you believed that would be most Darwian. Just don't take everything as a fact a low-level goverment employee tells you. When I think about it, don't take anything a goverment says as a fact.

No, you arent european. It's extremely bossy of u to tell us who can be european or not. It's for us to decide...Well, it's pretty bossy for a non EU citizen to decide too.

Kievan: You're either insane, or young and dumb.

And Ny Nordland makes me sad for Norway. Which is a beautiful coutry with lots of old people and xenophobes.

You're afraid of strawmen, and that makes you a bigot.

AHHH you are soo noble, wanting immigrants for money and do the dirty work which we wont do.(!)

That's not the main reason for which I support immigrants. I support them first of all for human reasons, and because immigration is a source of diversity and cultural "wealth". But that was an answer to all your egoistic rents: even from a purely egoistic pov, in the current situation of Europe, immigration is good for us.

If we dont have enough children, we must make more children. Most people dont make children because it's easier. Not because they dont want them...We should make it easier to have a family and encourage families....

Sure, we should give MORE welfare, have childcare public services, give parental vacations (to both parents), and so on. I would definetly support that, and it's in the proposed program of my party. But that's not the point here.

Ok then, tell me what a culture clash is. I am interested in your definition. Think it out carefully and explain it so I can udnerstand what you mean.

Culture clash is when two cultures and their ideals and such are contradictory, and thus will result in a clash between them for superiority. Not many European wars were cultural, mainly political and social. And example of cultural wars could be the muslim invasion that was repelled by Martel, and the Ottoman invasion of southern Europe.

I'm Dutch. With Indonesian great-grandmother. Mostly Frisian though.

The Japanese are working their asses of, and their economic growth is stifling.

What kind of house are you living in? Is it a straw hut in a shantytown? We (Western Europeans, Americans) are sucking the world dry, taking resources from everywhere, exploit workers for slave wages everywhere, and you've got the guts to be complainig about those few who escape from a shitty situation?

I support helping developing countries more, much more...
And you've got the guts to suggest we should be minorities in our own countries?

Kievan: You're either insane, or young and dumb.

That's an amazing argument you've got there. You must be on your high school debating team.

Well, it's pretty bossy for a non EU citizen to decide too.

I don't decide anything. Maps don't lie.

Immigration is fine only as long as the Immigrants are willing to adhere and live by the rules of the nations to which they immigrate. Muslims in general are not ready to do that, they want to change the rules in Christian Countries to suit them !!!

So, in my opinion such people should not be allowed immigration and if they are already inside, throw them out.

Kilobugya wrote....

One of the main problem of western european countries is the lack of children. We have more and more eldery, and less and less children. So having a population that has more children is a good point, for our economy.

Now, for the "shoot out a child every nine months" that's just complete bullshit. Even in immigrant families, families with more than 4 children are very rare.

For the fact that some people are lacking social security, I agree. But the problem is not in immigrants. Or if it is, it's of the use CEOs do of illegal immigrants as a way to avoid paying the taxes, and that would be fixed very easily by making them legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ny Nordland
Maybe you can explain why someone who contributes nothing to society but future criminals,

That's just a racist judgement, with absolutely no link to the reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ny Nordland
when the people who actually served this country are denied the same assistance.

Hum, should I remind you that the first lines of France army, in both WW1 and WW2 were African from the colonies ? They paid their share, and more than it, in the defense of France during the two wars. Should we kick their children now ?




I'VE NEVER SAID NEITHER OF THOSE QUOTATIONS. READ THE WHOLE THREAD IF YOU WANT.
Was it a mistake or did u do it on purpose? Why would you do that? Are your arguments that weak? u have to lie about what I 'say'?

And you've got the guts to suggest we should be minorities in our own countries?

Exactly! Why should the Germans be a minority in Germany, or the French in France, or the Russians in Russia? All this immigration has had me rooting for Russia lately, do you know how much I hate Russia?

Immigration is fine only as long as the Immigrants are willing to adhere and live by the rules of the nations to which they immigrate. Muslims in general are not ready to do that, they want to change the rules in Christian Countries to suit them !!!

So, in my opinion such people should not be allowed immigration and if they are already inside, throw them out.

Yes! Exactly! Like this guy who wanted Australia to remove Christianity from Christmas. Even the Jews were against him.

Culture clash is when two cultures and their ideals and such are contradictory, and thus will result in a clash between them for superiority.

Culture clash when people are target of racism, intolerance, oppression. Culture do not clash when people are welcomed as brothers.

Not many European wars were cultural, mainly political and social. And example of cultural wars could be the muslim invasion that was repelled by Martel, and the Ottoman invasion of southern Europe.

Those invasions were as political and economical than any other (the roman invasion, the nordic invasion, the UK-France "hundred years war", ...). It was a cultural clash, just a country wanting to extend its terrority and to grap ressources, as was the colonisation done by European nations, ...

Culture clash, or religion, may be used as an excuse or as a tool to keep the people fighting, but the main reason of all wars is the economy, and/or the lust of power of at least one of the two leaders.

Why do you care to stretch the meaning of European? That was what I'm wondering? Why cant u just respect whom we accept as european or not?
You arent european, why do you care who is?
I believe I just said I did. I respect your right to decide who is European or not. And it is enshrined in the EU constitution.

I did not say "OMG the EU SHOULD ACCEPT TURKEY." I asked a very simple question, based on the following logical principles:

Turkey is a nation on the periphery of "Europe" as famously understood.

The region Turkey is in has for a very long time been a part of Europe, first as a part of the Byzantine Empire, then under the French.

Culturally, The region of Turkey shares many characteristics of Europe, especially the Mediterranean European nations like Italy, Greece, Cyprus, etc.

Economically, Turkey is equivalent to an Eastern European Country.

Politically, Turkey is a SECULAR STATE with a fully functional democratically elected government.

None of the above is mutually exclusive to the ideals of Europe and to the characteristics of a European state. Hence, there is an argument that Turkey "could" be considered a part of Europe. In the face of the evidence, I personally believe that this is a good argument, and so I accept it.

That's IT. I'm not being bossy at all. In fact, I am being very civil. I hope we continue to have productive discussions in this manner.

I have no ill feeling to immigrants if they came here legally. Illegals on the other hand...

Well, it's pretty bossy for a non EU citizen to decide too.

Yes, Norway isnt in EU. But you wont suggest it's not european, will you?

Immigration is fine only as long as the Immigrants are willing to adhere and live by the rules of the nations to which they immigrate. Muslims in general are not ready to do that, they want to change the rules in Christian Countries to suit them !!!

That's just false. The huge majority of muslims who come here want to adhere to the values and rules of France, or at least, to the official values and rules: you know, the "Liberté Égalité Fraternité" stuff, Enlightenement, Declaration of Human and Citizen Rights, the "Article 1 - France is a democratic and social Republic" of our Constiution, and so on. When they clash with "the rules" it's because the governement acts, often, to the opposite of those values.

Yes! Exactly! Like this guy who wanted Australia to remove Christianity from Christmas. Even the Jews were against him.
Even I personally agree. But really, how many Muslims really want to do all the things you've said? Not all of them, for surely most of them hang around and have fun just like the rest of us do.

I don't decide anything. Maps don't lie.Humans make boundaries, silly. What's the decisive characteristic of continents then?

Culture clash when people are target of racism, intolerance, oppression. Culture do not clash when people are welcomed as brothers.

Hahaha. Dude, we're animals. We can't NOT clash. Your pipedream of human brotherhood isn't realistic.

Kievan: You're either insane, or young and dumb.

And Ny Nordland makes me sad for Norway. Which is a beautiful coutry with lots of old people and xenophobes.

You're afraid of strawmen, and that makes you a bigot.

Funny...since you are pro-immigrant u must think u are so open minded. But you are very quick to label people. Go back to indonesia, and help your people...

Yes, Norway isnt in EU. But you wont suggest it's not european, will you?Perhaps not, but it does mean that Norway has no say whether or not Turkey should be an EU member, and if it manages to become an EU member, I'd count it as European.

Ny Nordland: Our countries? So it's yours because you had the luck to be born there? And if you're so afraid of becoming a minority, START BREEDING! Instead of continuing to live in an old peoples' home, doting on oil-revenues.

Kievan: As a matter of fact, I AM able to debate things, but this bull you're spewing is beneath my consideration. Your total lack of common sense, coupled with your bigotry make me too tired.

Do you people have any idea about the difference between the main tenets of Christianity and Islam? Culture clash my ass, the only culture clash I see comes from fundamentalist bigots on both sides of the 'fence.'

Humans make boundaries, silly. What's the decisive characteristic of continents then?

Bosphorus straight, Ural mountains and Ural river between Europe and Asia.

Perhaps not, but it does mean that Norway has no say whether or not Turkey should be an EU member, and if it manages to become an EU member, I'd count it as European.

Whoopee. A country with three percent of it's land in Europe with the second most power in the EU.

Bosphorus straight, Ural mountains and Ural river between Europe and Asia.
He said the defining charteristic of contenents

Not all of them have the ural mountans nor river (at least there are none on this landmass)

Bosphorus straight, Ural mountains and Ural river between Europe and Asia.So a mountain range separates continents? What about the Himalayas?

Perhaps not, but it does mean that Norway has no say whether or not Turkey should be an EU member, and if it manages to become an EU member, I'd count it as European.

The only TRUE test of "Europeaness" nowadays is whether a nation and its citizens are in the EU.

So that Pakistani British Citizen living in London is far more a European than, say, a Russian, or, as Laerod says, a Norweigian.

I believe I just said I did. I respect your right to decide who is European or not. And it is enshrined in the EU constitution.

I did not say "OMG the EU SHOULD ACCEPT TURKEY." I asked a very simple question, based on the following logical principles:

Turkey is a nation on the periphery of "Europe" as famously understood.

The region Turkey is in has for a very long time been a part of Europe, first as a part of the Byzantine Empire, then under the French.

Culturally, The region of Turkey shares many characteristics of Europe, especially the Mediterranean European nations like Italy, Greece, Cyprus, etc.

Economically, Turkey is equivalent to an Eastern European Country.

Politically, Turkey is a SECULAR STATE with a fully functional democratically elected government.

None of the above is mutually exclusive to the ideals of Europe and to the characteristics of a European state. Hence, there is an argument that Turkey "could" be considered a part of Europe. In the face of the evidence, I personally believe that this is a good argument, and so I accept it.

That's IT. I'm not being bossy at all. In fact, I am being very civil. I hope we continue to have productive discussions in this manner.

They arent europeans because:
1) They arent etnically european...
2) Their culture is different from what can be considered european. Just walk in a turkish street then walk in a european one....
3) They are muslim...
4) Geographically 97% of the country is in asia...

I'VE NEVER SAID NEITHER OF THOSE QUOTATIONS. READ THE WHOLE THREAD IF YOU WANT.
Was it a mistake or did u do it on purpose? Why would you do that? Are your arguments that weak? u have to lie about what I 'say'?

I'm really sorry, it was "The Jackals Pack" who said it, and I did a copy/paste abuse (I just replied to one of your posts before, and therefore I had still the "QUOTE=Ny Nordland" in my buffer).

I edited by post to fix the mistake, and I apologize to you.

So a mountain range separates continents? What about the Himalayas?

The Urals are the best possible boundary. If you can think of a better one, I'd like to hear it.

The Urals are the best possible boundary. If you can think of a better one, I'd like to hear it.
Thats the whole flurking point ... that it is all arbatrary

The only TRUE test of "Europeaness" nowadays is whether a nation and its citizens are in the EU.

So that Pakistani British Citizen living in London is far more a European than, say, a Russian, or, as Laerod says, a Norweigian.

Which shows you how LOW Europe's fallen. It's a lot like how you could become a West German citizen by saying "My grandmother owned a German Shepard! I'm German!"