NationStates Jolt Archive

I'd just like to point out that terrorism has been going on for a lot longer period of time than we've been in Iraq. If everyone pulled out of Iraq, there would still be terrorism all over the world. This is not a US/GB problem, this is a global problem.

We're using it as an example. Eta, IRA, hell, the PIRA as well... terror organizations have been around for years. We all know it, we all acknowledge it.

I just would like to say 'thank you' to the powers that be.

My son-in Law overslept this morning.

If he hadn't, he would have been at Kings Cross station just at the time the bomb went off,,,,

Look at this just released photo on Fox:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/169066/4_1_070705_london_blasts_16.jpg

I'd just like to point out that terrorism has been going on for a lot longer period of time than we've been in Iraq. If everyone pulled out of Iraq, there would still be terrorism all over the world. This is not a US/GB problem, this is a global problem.True, as well. I was just putting things into context. Replace Iraq with Shining Path era Peru, Nepal, Colombia etc.

That is correct. London police have said the bomb on the bus was by a suicide bomber.

The London Police report I saw on the BBC said they believe the bomb went off while it was in transit. Although ow they can tell at this stage I don't know.

Look at this just released photo:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/169066/4_1_070705_london_blasts_16.jpg
The BBC were showing that one online hours ago. Hell, they've got an album

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4660563.stm

i *think* they meant that innocent iraqi's get killed every day, sometimes becuase they're not to impressed with out peace keeping efforts.
terrorist happens all the time every day, we may not always hear about it. becuase we only here about what other people deem too be newsworthy for us. sometime though it might be a matter of perspective as to who the terroists really are, from thier point of view (and i'm not saying that this isn't a skewed corkscrew point of view) they're standing up from wrongs commited against them. unfortunatly, it hasn't hit home to them that a mass cull of the 'bad' nations citizens may not be they way to go.just becuase a country has been hit by a terroist attack it doesn't make the country innocent and right, nor does it invalidate the terroists cause, its just means that the terroists cause will be carefully disgarded instead of careful listened to and solved. before you all start yelling i'm not saying this is true of iraq style things, just a general point worth considering.

i *think* they meant that innocent iraqi's get killed every day, sometimes becuase they're not to impressed with out peace keeping efforts.
terrorist happens all the time every day, we may not always hear about it. becuase we only here about what other people deem too be newsworthy for us. sometime though it might be a matter of perspective as to who the terroists really are, from thier point of view (and i'm not saying that this isn't a skewed corkscrew point of view) they're standing up from wrongs commited against them. unfortunatly, it hasn't hit home to them that a mass cull of the 'bad' nations citizens may not be they way to go.just becuase a country has been hit by a terroist attack it doesn't make the country innocent and right, nor does it invalidate the terroists cause, its just means that the terroists cause will be carefully disgarded instead of careful listened to and solved. before you all start yelling i'm not saying this is true of iraq style things, just a general point worth considering.
Countries may not be innocent, but people on their way home from work or out shopping are. The same goes with people doing their job in an office building.

Just the thoughts of one American:


Stunned, numb, unfeeling. That is how I felt watching the coverage on 9/11. Today, watching the coverage of the attack on London, I felt none of that. Anger, only anger.

My thoughts and my heart go out to all those affected by this latest attack.

We know that Britons are a tough people, capable of handling the senseless violence of terrorism today much the same as you have handled much greater violence before it. We know you will be strong and defiant, refusing to let this cowardly attack destroy you or disuade you from what is right. As you stood with us four years ago, so too will we stand with you.

The terrorists fucked up.

Less casualties than the UK suffers in a week when they had every available advantage?

Somehow I'm not too worried. Blair and Bush are worrying me but the terrorists? Not a lot.

oh hell yeah, i never meant to suggest they weren't for a second.

At the risk of going off topic, does anyone think that having ID cards would actually have stopped this?

Though I'm not Brit, I'll have to answer no. It wouldn't have prevented it.

oh hell yeah, i never meant to suggest they weren't for a second.
Yeh, I gotcha

However, the British Army, as an organization, does not want to kill the innocent. The terrorists do however.

All the political parties are working together with Blair to get us out this mess. Even the Lib Dems are, and they're good at whining ;) so we should too.

The best time to get back at Blair will be the ballot box at around 2009.

Blair ain't running in 2009 :D

The terrorists fucked up.

Less casualties than the UK suffers in a week when they had every available advantage?

Somehow I'm not too worried. Blair and Bush are worrying me but the terrorists? Not a lot.

I don't think they aimed to kill. No, they aimed to prove how devastating they could be if they truly applied themselves. they brought Central London to a halt. In rush hour. In less than ten minutes effectively.Do you know how difficult that is? 1.2 million ppl, all brought to a standstill. They were hitting infrastructure here

Al-queda realized their operatives would most likely be murdered before they could carry out an attack if they went anywhere near a major Scottish city.

Scotland has major cities? :p

doubt it was against G8 it was probably because we got the olympics and terrorists were trying to see how easy it was to attack us. They probably would have attacked Paris if they'd won the vote

THis has been debunked since it is impossible to put this together in one day. It was more than likely aimed at the G-8 since most cops are there and not in London.

That is correct. London police have said the bomb on the bus was by a suicide bomber.

Yep. Sky News said as much.

I'd just like to point out that this is the sort of thing that happens to Iraqis every day.

All these posts, and that's the first time someone has said it. Thank you for doing so.

If we're all shocked, angry, numbed, think how the people of Iraq must feel every day as they can't go outside without wondering whether they might get blown up by terrorists or shot inadvertently by American soldiers. Or whether a loved one may not come home alive.

My utmost sympathy and condoleances go to the people of London, and most particularly to the families of the victims, and also to the families of the thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have died killed by Coalition forces or by terrorists.

All these posts, and that's the first time someone has said it. Thank you for doing so.

If we're all shocked, angry, numbed, think how the people of Iraq must feel every day as they can't go outside without wondering whether they might get blown up by terrorists or shot inadvertently by American soldiers. Or whether a loved one may not come home alive.

My utmost sympathy and condoleances go to the people of London, and most particularly to the families of the victims, and also to the families of the thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have died killed by Coalition forces or by terrorists.
And it's not just Iraqis. We cannot forget that all over the world people are being killed, not just by terrorists, but by oppressive governments and AIDS and... Well, I won't go into that right now. While this is indeed a great crime, far worse things happen just about every single hour, somewhere on this planet. Kinda pales in comparison.

Did you know London police said that they found two unexploded bombs this morning after the four bombs exploded?

And that at some of the sites, pieces of explosive timing devices were found?

Did you know London police said that they found two unexploded bombs this morning after the four bombs exploded?

Yep. That I did know! Thank God they didn't Explode. Could've been far worse.

The terrorists fucked up.

Less casualties than the UK suffers in a week when they had every available advantage?

Somehow I'm not too worried. Blair and Bush are worrying me but the terrorists? Not a lot.

Would you prefer some more carnage or something?!? :eek:

Seriously, I'm just thankful it wasn't any worse. Bush and Blair worry you? They're both out of office in 2009. You think Osama & crew will stop by then if they're left alone or not caught? :(

Finding a man is hard. Look how long it took to find Saddam. Shoot, we NEVER found Pancho Villa. I hope we get a break somehow and get a good lead on al-Zaquari or bin Laden.

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

The terrorists fucked up.

Less casualties than the UK suffers in a week when they had every available advantage?

Somehow I'm not too worried. Blair and Bush are worrying me but the terrorists? Not a lot.

Blair and Bush worry you more? Oh yeah because democratically elected leaders are worse than terrorists? :rolleyes: Stop trying to troll

Right, I'm back. And in a herculean effort I read all pages since I left on page 41. Or was it 42?

Two Things I'd like to say:

1. Maybe this will help people understand why the Spanish voters reacted like they did after Madrid. I've heard too often that the Spanish "gave in to Terroristst" - but now it might be easier to understand.
Afterall, how would you feel if there was an election next week and Blair'd be trying to make political capital out of this by blaming it on, say the IRA. You'd not feel like voting for him.

2. We know that local counter-terrorism measures can't prevent these things. They've got thousands of cameras all over London - didn't help. If there were ID Cards, the bombers would've had them.
But what can be seen is that the emergency services did a remarkable job, that years of drills and emergency planning worked very effectively and that many lives were saved because of it.
So I'd say, rather than spend billions on bombing places, maybe we should take that money and put it into emergency services instead and make Terrorist attacks less effective. And after that, we can work on eliminating the root causes of the problem.

Would you prefer some more carnage or something?!? :eek:

Seriously, I'm just thankful it wasn't any worse. Bush and Blair worry you? They're both out of office in 2009. You think Osama & crew will stop by then if they're left alone or not caught? :(

I'd rather it never happened. Just trying to get a little perspective in. Lockerbie was worse, I didn't notice us invade Libya, did you?

4 years until either is garunteed to be out of power. Osama will probably be dead by then. Osama doesn't control the worlds greatest warmachine. Bush and Blair combined do.

For anyone who has been reading this from the start, I'm back from work now. I am a guard for South Eastern Trains, and I did not give a moments hesitation about going to work today. I have worked my train from faversham to London Victoria and back twice.

Anyone who has read any of my previous posts will know my position (I suppose I'm a born again pacifist), but the key is not to let these people change your lifestyle or routine. If you do then the terrorists have won.

I'd rather it never happened. Just trying to get a little perspective in. Lockerbie was worse, I didn't notice us invade Libya, did you?

No we didn't but we did bomb them. Also, the French denied us access to their airspace for such a bombing run. Guess what, a bomb fell near or on the French Embassy. We may not have invaded but we did bomb them.

-snip-
How much delay was there?
Clarke said the overland trains were going only with delays, and not all lines, shortly after you left.

I hope we get a break somehow and get a good lead on al-Zaquari or bin Laden.Judging by the lack of effort that has been put into hunting down Bin-Laden... they're gonna need all the help they can get.

I truly hope that attention will be focused on where it belongs. Hunting down Al-Qaeda to the very last man if possible.

Judging by the lack of effort that has been put into hunting down Bin-Laden... they're gonna need all the help they can get.

This has got to be the most ignorant statement from Canada6. There isn't a lack of effort Canada6! I suggest you look at the terrain we're dealing with.

I truly hope that attention will be focused on where it belongs. Hunting down Al-Qaeda to the very last man if possible.

And apparently, some Al Qaeda are in Iraq. But this isn't about this. This thread is about the London bombings. I'm done feeding this troll.

Judging by the lack of effort that has been put into hunting down Bin-Laden... they're gonna need all the help they can get.

I truly hope that attention will be focused on where it belongs. Hunting down Al-Qaeda to the very last man if possible.

believe me its on now

My service runs into Victoria and Cannon Street. They closed both stations while the the police and sniffer dogs went round, but they were open after about two or three hours. Us British simply will not stand for this. You'll find tommorrow that people won't even take a day off work. As far as we are concerned it id business ad usual. We will carry on. If not, they win. And that will never happen.

-snip-
I didn't doubt that. But sometimes there's physical limitations to going "business as usual". I'd understand if they took down the system for a day or two to check everything through and get the mess cleaned up and so on.
If it doesn't take that long, that's great, but they shouldn't take shortcuts to look defiant and steadfast.

believe me its on now

I wouldn't want to tangle with the SAS. Kind of feel sorry for them now.

I wouldn't want to tangle with the SAS. Kind of feel sorry for them now.

hey we invented this kinda stuff, they wanted to bomb us they can go for it. We have been bombed on and off since WW2. This is just gonna make us more determined

I wouldn't want to tangle with the SAS. Kind of feel sorry for them now.

Feel sorry?! Your having a fucking laugh, surely?!

Feel sorry?! Your having a fucking laugh, surely?!

Guess I should have used the [/sarcasm] tag. :p

Wer'e going to catch these people and make them pay. They will go before a British judge and get sentenced by a British judge. To life. With a little note in the Home Secretary's cabinet file that says life means life. In a British jail. Where every time they see another British prisoner, they'll get what they deserve. Piss in their food, punches in the kidneys, and little digs every time. They'll get it.

hey we invented this kinda stuff, they wanted to bomb us they can go for it. We have been bombed on and off since WW2. This is just gonna make us more determined

Oh you don't have to tell me that. Granddad was part of the 1st Polish Air Brigade..... :)

I can't think of any time in western history when women can be stoned to death for showing an inch of flesh.

Throughout the middle ages, western religious and secular leaders routinely performed ludicrously savage punishments on anyone who wasn't orthodox enough for their liking (Heretics, homosexuals, jews, prostitutes, poor people etc), so western civilisation is hardly absolved on the barbarism front.

Besides, the terrorists are probably nostalgic for the middle ages, when western christendom was basically a land of crude illiterate barbarians, and Islam led the world in terms of culture and science.

This has got to be the most ignorant statement from Canada6. There isn't a lack of effort Canada6! I suggest you look at the terrain we're dealing with.And apparently, some Al Qaeda are in Iraq. But this isn't about this. This thread is about the London bombings. I'm done feeding this troll.
I wouldn't be too quick to call it an ignorant statement. Are you aware that there where more policemen in Manhattan than soldiers in Afghanistan when the Afghanistan war was at it's height?

If Al-Qaeda members where in Iraq as you say they are... as of this writing no Al-Qaeda members have been detained in Iraq by anybody at anytime.

Just wanted to offer condolences and encouragement to those who have lost loved ones and peace of mind. I couldn't imagine someone bombing my neighbourhood....what a nightmare.

I wouldn't be too quick to call it an ignorant statement. Are you aware that there where more policemen in Manhattan than soldiers in Afghanistan when the Afghanistan war was at it's height?

And Manhatten is a damn city and not a country. There's more cops in NYC than in Afghanistan so what's your point? This has nothing to do with it. We are talking about Terrain here. Just because we haven't caught him yet means we are not after him. We'll continue to go after him too.

If Al-Qaeda members where in Iraq as you say they are... as of this writing no Al-Qaeda members have been detained in Iraq by anybody at anytime.

Oh brother! Another ignorant statement. I'm done. Only so much BS I can take. Especially in this thread. Leave the Politics alone for the next 2hrs and 35 minutes eastern time.

And Manhatten is a damn city and not a country. There's more cops in NYC than in Afghanistan so what's your point? This has nothing to do with it. We are talking about Terrain here. Just because we haven't caught him yet means we are not after him. We'll continue to go after him too.

Oh brother! Another ignorant statement. I'm done. Only so much BS I can take. Especially in this thread. Leave the Politics alone for the next 2hrs and 35 minutes eastern time.I regret to inform you but there are no Alqaeda members in Iraq. as a matter of fact... that statement is so ignorant that the Washington Post said the following...

By Walter Pincus and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 17, 2004; Page A01

The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Here is the link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html


The terrain of Afghanistan is of no concern to me. If the terrain is tough, than that's more reason that there should be more troops in there looking for Al-Qaeda members and training clusters.

*snip*

:headbang:

I gotta learn not to feed the damn trolls. This is not for politics Canada6. Leave it at the door. I'm done with this line because it has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

The terrain of Afghanistan is of no concern to me. If the terrain is tough, than that's more reason that there should be more troops in there looking for Al-Qaeda members and training clusters.

Goes to show you no nothing of how military operations work! When you get more versed in it, then come debate me regarding it. Until then, GET BACK ON TOPIC!

I'm sorry feeding him people. It won't happen again.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone... but you claim that there are Al-Qaeda members in Iraq...

I've posted an article of the Washington Post's coverage of the Setember 11 panel that stated that there are no Al-Qaeda in Iraq, nor were they present in Iraq at any time.

And you react like that?


OK.

I'm sorry feeding him people. It won't happen again.

Commit seppuku before it gets out of hand.

Getting back on topic as requested... My heart goes out to the great people of London. I truly hope that justice will be sought after as soon as possible.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone... but you claim that there are Al-Qaeda members in Iraq...

I've posted an article of the Washington Post's coverage of the Setember 11 panel that stated that there are no Al-Qaeda in Iraq, nor were they present in Iraq at any time.

And you react like that?


OK.

*last post on this issue*

What was Al Zaraqawi doing there prior to our invasion? What was that training camp we hit in northern Iraq (intel captured from there says its a camp used by a group affiliated with....Al Qaeda)?

Your reviewing past information. Look at the present.

*I promise it its the last time*

Commit seppuku before it gets out of hand.

HAHA! I might do that.

I'm pissed. Pissed at everybody. I'm very pissed. And I'm very sad. I'm very shocked. It's not good. Nothing's good.

*too emotional*

I still believe sincere negotiation is the key.

What was Al Zaraqawi doing there prior to our invasion? who says Al Zarqawi was a member of AQ before the invasion?

believe me its on now

As much as I sympathize with the you, I don't think AQ will be "hunted down to the last man". Infact, I don't think anything would happen remotely in that direction.

The CIA chief has said that he has an "excellent idea (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/20/goss.bin.laden/) " where Osama is. Everything indicates that he is somewhere in NWFP of Pakistan.

What's the SAS gonna do?

Some hard statements will be issued by Blair. The usual denying from Musharraf. In a few weeks, after things get settled, it will be business as usual until the next ghastly attack.

Heck, I am betting that there will be a staged attack in Pakistan in a coupla days just for Musharraf to say "See, they are targetting us too. Bad Osama. Gimme money, Gimme F-16s, Gimme Kashmir, Gimme..." and in return yet another Al-Quaeda number 3 will be produced and Bush and Blair will celebrate this great victory in the war on terror.

I am sick of this charade. Bah.

I'm pissed. Pissed at everybody. I'm very pissed. And I'm very sad. I'm very shocked. It's not good. Nothing's good.

*too emotional*

I still believe sincere negotiation is the key.

You can't negotiate with rabid dogs. And really there is no excuse for much of the poverty and suffering in the so-called islamic world. It's not like many of those countries are not blessed with abundant natural resources.

I'd rather it never happened. Just trying to get a little perspective in. Lockerbie was worse, I didn't notice us invade Libya, did you?

Yep. More's the pity. At the same time, had that happened, it'd have really made a mess of the war between Afghanistan/USSR AND the Iran/Iraq war.
Plus, you'd just had that campaign in the Falklands...
The Middle East was much worse off 20 years ago.

4 years until either is garunteed to be out of power. Osama will probably be dead by then. Osama doesn't control the worlds greatest warmachine. Bush and Blair combined do.

4 years until BOTH. Maybe, I hope so. True, but that's been true indisputably since 1989, with the USSR as a opponent since 1945.

Judging by the lack of effort that has been put into hunting down Bin-Laden... they're gonna need all the help they can get.

I truly hope that attention will be focused on where it belongs. Hunting down Al-Qaeda to the very last man if possible.

Um... you are aware that the border between Pakistan & Afghanistan is totally porous and impossible to lock down, right? It's *exactly* like the Viet Cong running into Laos. :(

As much as I sympathize with the you, I don't think AQ will be "hunted down to the last man". Infact, I don't think anything would happen remotely in that direction.

The CIA chief has said that he has an "excellent idea (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/20/goss.bin.laden/) " where Osama is. Everything indicates that he is somewhere in NWFP of Pakistan.

What's the SAS gonna do?

Some hard statements will be issued by Blair. The usual denying from Musharraf. In a few weeks, after things get settled, it will be business as usual until the next ghastly attack.

Heck, I am betting that there will be a staged attack in Pakistan in a coupla days just for Musharraf to say "See, they are targetting us too. Bad Osama. Gimme money, Gimme F-16s, Gimme Kashmir, Gimme..." and in return yet another Al-Quaeda number 3 will be produced and Bush and Blair will celebrate this great victory in the war on terror.

I am sick of this charade. Bah.Very well said. I'm afraid your right too. However Pakistan has been declared a nuclear power. If they attack Pakistan without tying up the loose ends it might get very messy. WW3 stuff. :(

Um... you are aware that the border between Pakistan & Afghanistan is totally porous and impossible to lock down, right? It's *exactly* like the Viet Cong running into Laos. :(

Actually, there is no border between afganistan and pakistan. Neither side recognize the boundary line, the only people who do are the rest of the world - who demarcate it as the one established in 1919.

And certainly, no-one who lives there recognizes either the authority of Kabul or Islamabad. It is essentially anarchy.

I still believe sincere negotiation is the key.

Something tells me Osama doesn't want to negotiate. The only demand he's ever given has been for all the world to convert to Wahhabism. Since that doesn't seem feasible it can be assumed that AQ will keep doing what it's doing until it either is marginalized or conquers the world. Neither outcome will likely happen for a while, so we can expect seemingly endless terrorism.

Something tells me Osama doesn't want to negotiate.Exactly. You can't negotiate with terrorists period. And I'm a pacifist.

Very well said. I'm afraid your right too. However Pakistan has been declared a nuclear power. If they attack Pakistan without tying up the loose ends it might get very messy. WW3 stuff. :(

What loose ends? Condi Rice is on record that the US has "plans" for the paki nukes in case a coup or revolution happens.

You cannot "contain" terrorism by appeasing Musharraf. The current US strategy is self-defeating. He has no incentive to completely eliminate terrorism as long as he can milk the system by dangling number 3s.

That way both Bush and Musharraf get to achieve their objectives (stay in power) while the rest of the world gets screwed.

I am convinced that neither Bush nor Musharraf want to catch OBL. Suits both of them to keep him alive.


Lacadaemon,

Durrand Line is recognised by Pakistan as the international border. But it expired around 1994 (surprise ! the taliban came to power at that time, hmm, must be a coincident). Current Afghanistan govt is in no position to demand anything regarding that, but I think they will whenever they become stable ( a reason why pakistan will never allow a stable and strong Afghanistan). The pashtun tribes on both sides of the border do not recognise the line.

Stepping away from the current direction of the descussion for a moment. (but not too far) I would like to say that, though angered by this, I am not suprised. Britian was stupid enough to leave their boarders wide open, letting anyone in, even if they were from terrorist sponsering countries. What is worse, Muslim (yes, I said Muslim) extremists said that they were going to do this on May 23 2005. And they were already in London. No arrests were made. What were the British thinking? And all I have heard is one empty suit after another get up and make a speach about nothing. I am angry at the bastards who launched this attack. I am angry at our leaders who still continue to do nothing.

What really unerves me as an American, is that my country is doing much of the same things. Rampant political correctness is not only handicapping our military, but is handicapping our anti-terrorism law enforcement. Plus, our Mexican boarder is wide open. Illegals pour over every day. Aside from the economic disaster that this is causing, it is a national security nightmare. Who's to say that one of those boarder jumpers isn't a terrorist. How many more inocent people must be slaughtered by these neo-nazis in head scarfs, who wrap themselves in a religion and hide behind a copy of the Koran, before we close our boarders? Not to mention the countless other actions that must be taken we want our children to inhabit a world that isn't up in flames. Wake up and smell the dirty bombs, people.

Ok, my rant is over. Carry on.

*takes really deep breath*

Lacadaemon,

Durrand Line is recognised by Pakistan as the international border. But it expired around 1994 (surprise ! the taliban came to power at that time, hmm, must be a coincident). Current Afghanistan govt is in no position to demand anything regarding that, but I think they will whenever they become stable ( a reason why pakistan will never allow a stable and strong Afghanistan). The pashtun tribes on both sides of the border do not recognise the line.

Ah, I sit corrected. Thank you. I was under the impression that neither side recognized it.

However, I do recall from a fairly recent national geographic article, that the majority of people in the border region do not recognize either capital. I can dig up the reference if you wish.

Ah, I sit corrected. Thank you. I was under the impression that neither side recognized it.

However, I do recall from a fairly recent national geographic article, that the majority of people in the border region do not recognize either capital. I can dig up the reference if you wish.

No problem. :)

Actual situation is somewhat complicated than that.

The Durrand line (and the Durrand treaty) was between the Afghan monarchy and British India , following the disasterous invasion of Afghanistan by British Indian troops. The tribals killed them all and sent back one lone British soldier to tell the story. The treaty proposed a line of positions held then (the Durrand line) and it was a 100 year treaty signed in 1893.

Pakistan maintains that it did not inherit the treaty following the independance and partition. Afghanistan govt under Zahir Shah and Daoud and Najibullah and pretty much every govt until 1993 never gave up the claim nor signed anything to that effect.

Legally, Afghanistan has a claim to the area as indicated in this map

http://www.afghanland.com/history/durrand1.jpg

Recall the emergence of the Taliban around that time period. Not a coincidence.

Some pashtun tribes like "Afridi" were successfully assimilated into Pakistani civil structure. But many Pashtun tribes are on both sides of the border and do not recognise the line, nor do they think of themselves as pakistani or Afghan. Tribal loyalties supercede even religious loyalties in some areas.

The non-pashtun elements in Afghan govt like the Tajikis, Uzbekis, Hazaras etc are not too keen in getting back the area, since it would tip the pashtun majority from around 40% to more than 60% , which they fear will lead to total pashtun dominance of the multi-ethnic Afghanistan.

To add to the confusion, there is a small percentage of nationalist Pashtuns demanding a seperate state called Pashtunistan comprising of pashtun majority areas from both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

So for now, both the Pakistan and Afghanistan govt pretend that nothing is unusual while jockeying for geopolitical upper hand.


All due to the arbitrary line drawing by the colonial Brits. ;)

Some sad news from the BBC:

The final death toll for the London bombs will be at least 50, the head of the Met Police says.
Sir Ian Blair said there were a number of bodies still in the Tube train at Russell Square but that the final figure was unlikely to top 100.
Sir Ian said the police had an "implacable resolve" to track down those responsible for the blasts.
The blasts on three Tubes and a bus left 700 hurt, with 100 held overnight in hospital and 22 serious or critical.

More information:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4663931.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1524178,00.html

My thoughts go out to all who have lost relatives and friends.

I hope they get to the ******* ******** and arrest them. Sincerely. I hate these people. COWARDS! AND A BUNCH OF COWARDS AREN'T GONNA STOP ME FROM MOVING TO LONDON! TAKE THAT, YOU **** ** *******!

I hope they get to the ******* ******** and arrest them. Sincerely. I hate these people. COWARDS! AND A BUNCH OF COWARDS AREN'T GONNA STOP ME FROM MOVING TO LONDON! TAKE THAT, YOU **** ** *******!err ......

how old are you?

http://www.werenotafraid.com/

Not all in the best of taste, but the sentiment is clear.

Stepping away from the current direction of the descussion for a moment. (but not too far) I would like to say that, though angered by this, I am not suprised. Britian was stupid enough to leave their boarders wide open, letting anyone in, even if they were from terrorist sponsering countries. What is worse, Muslim (yes, I said Muslim) extremists said that they were going to do this on May 23 2005. And they were already in London. No arrests were made. What were the British thinking? And all I have heard is one empty suit after another get up and make a speach about nothing. I am angry at the bastards who launched this attack. I am angry at our leaders who still continue to do nothing.

What really unerves me as an American, is that my country is doing much of the same things. Rampant political correctness is not only handicapping our military, but is handicapping our anti-terrorism law enforcement. Plus, our Mexican boarder is wide open. Illegals pour over every day. Aside from the economic disaster that this is causing, it is a national security nightmare. Who's to say that one of those boarder jumpers isn't a terrorist. How many more inocent people must be slaughtered by these neo-nazis in head scarfs, who wrap themselves in a religion and hide behind a copy of the Koran, before we close our boarders? Not to mention the countless other actions that must be taken we want our children to inhabit a world that isn't up in flames. Wake up and smell the dirty bombs, people.

Ok, my rant is over. Carry on.

*takes really deep breath*
Areests where made. And our boarders arm't wide open, if anything there very closed, but we can't build a wall round the country can we, and you can row over the channel.

Areests where made. And our boarders arm't wide open, if anything there very closed, but we can't build a wall round the country can we, and you can row over the channel.

I meant prior to the attack. You know, arresting those radical muslims in London who threatened to attack on May 23, 2005. Arrests that could have saved lives. In the case of boarders, I understand that being an Island, England doesn't have the same illegal alient problem. However, they don't police their legal immigrants. I can only hope that they start doing so. I would be willing to bet money that when they find out exactly who the terrorists were, they will find out that they arrived legally.

I meant prior to the attack. You know, arresting those radical muslims in London who threatened to attack on May 23, 2005. Arrests that could have saved lives. In the case of boarders, I understand that being an Island, England doesn't have the same illegal alient problem. However, they don't police their legal immigrants. I can only hope that they start doing so. I would be willing to bet money that when they find out exactly who the terrorists were, they will find out that they arrived legally.

We live in a free society and these things are bound to happen in a free society, its when we get paranoid and lose our free society is when the terrorists have won because they have changed our way of life

However, they don't police their legal immigrants. I can only hope that they start doing so.

Heh? What planet are you on? Every legal immingrant who wishes to work in the UK has to go through checks, tests etc. Its not like they turn up and get a job or a house :rolleyes: So yes, they are 'policed'. From countries outside the EU you have to get visas to visit, just the same as the US.

My uncle was in Kings Cross when the bomb went off but, thanks be to God, he is totally fine, just smoke and all that.

But, it's quite scary though because like I'm moving very close to Aldgate and to think that I will be living in prime terrorist attack area, and that has been attacked, is kinda scary.

That is questionable. Our immigration laws are crap and outdated. Our system is complicated and slow, and many immigrants escape or get lost in the system.

Britain needs to reform its immigration system, but this is such a 'hot' topic for the government that they do not want to touch it because of those damn Human Rights people that are getting in the way of security. ID cards all the way, we already have them with drving licenses just in a different name, whats the big deal?!

Secondly, the people who attacked us yesterday are cowards and barbarians, at least the IRA had the 'decency' to warn us of any attacks so loss of life was minimal, these poeple did it out of the blue with no warning for maximum damage! Bastards.

Because I don't want the goverment spying on me, I'd only lose it and it'd make identity theft so much easyer. They'd be easy to forge and wouldn't have been able to stop the terrorists.

The government spy on you already, you are that naive to think the governement do not know alot about you. Every credit card transaction can be tracked, they know where you live, the know your job, they know your car, they know EVERYTHING!

ID cards will be a mini passport, I can't see the problem! If anything they will be a benfit as you will always have proof of identity on you and proof of age.

Official deaths are now above 50, with wounded people confirmed at 700.

Unfortunately, there is still one carriage of a train on the Underground which is inaccessible which was the focal point for one of the blasts, and it is believed there is a large number of bodies there.

Official deaths are now above 50, with wounded people confirmed at 700.

Unfortunately, there is still one carriage of a train on the Underground which is inaccessible which was the focal point for one of the blasts, and it is believed there is a large number of bodies there.

And plus, it is still not known how many people died in the bus bomb. It is quite obvious that more than 2 people died from that. It was apparently completely packed. There must be at least 10 from that.

And plus, it is still not known how many people died in the bus bomb. It is quite obvious that more than 2 people died from that. It was apparently completely packed. There must be at least 10 from that.

Its two right now, the others are in hospital with most in a critical condition, so many might not make it, thats why its only 2 so far.

Its two right now, the others are in hospital with most in a critical condition, so many might not make it, thats why its only 2 so far.
Do you watch the news? The police ahve quite clearly said that it is hard to establish all the dead from the bus because they can't get to it and the nature of the explosion. Watch, more will be added to the bus death count as they are uncovered from the bus, not just from those that die at the hospital.

The bus bomb must've been really big, I think that's what is giving Londoners the chills now, it certainly spooks me.. Being packed out, there must have been a lot of casualties, especially considering the roof was blown off, blood splattered against the BMA building, the yellow handrails poking out of the top deck like the ribs of a gutted animal..

Also, the London bus is one of the biggest symbols of the city, reknowned for its safety amongst other things. That bomb was an inadvertent (granted) attack on the capital's image to the world.

$44 billion disappeared from the FTSE index yesterday. Great, a recession, the icing on the cake.. And we were doing so well too..

The bus bomb must've been really big, I think that's what is giving Londoners the chills now, it certainly spooks me.. Being packed out, there must have been a lot of casualties, especially considering the roof was blown off, blood splattered against the BMA building, the yellow handrails poking out of the top deck like the ribs of a gutted animal..

Yes! The roof of the bus was completely blown off and over the bus, to in front of it. 2 deaths from the bus can not be the real number because I doubt that many on the top deck would have survived and those below would probably have perished as well.

Yes! The roof of the bus was completely blown off and over the bus, to in front of it. 2 deaths from the bus can not be the real number because I doubt that many on the top deck would have survived and those below would probably have perished as well.

The latest death toll on the bus is 13, says a local news network.

And plus, it is still not known how many people died in the bus bomb. It is quite obvious that more than 2 people died from that. It was apparently completely packed. There must be at least 10 from that.
Just in:
More than 50 people died in the London terror attacks, police said today, including 13 in the bus bombing in Tavistock Square. Difficulties recovering bodies meant it was not yet possible to determine the number of dead overall.

The Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, said bodies were still to be removed from the tube train on which a bomb exploded as it travelled between King's Cross and Russell Square stations, killing more than 20 people.

The inevitable Paki connection.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005310429,00.html

Last night a terror cell based in the Midlands emerged as suspects behind the outrage.

They are Muslim extremists — yet the bombs aimed to deal out death and injury indiscriminately to people of ALL faiths.

The gang — mostly ex-students in their 20s — have had their homes watched for months, but there has not been enough evidence to arrest them.

Intelligence agents have monitored calls between members and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

A US security source said: “The suspected cell is not the only one being looked at but is one of the most serious lines of inquiry. The suspects are British — disaffected graduates who graduated in the UK, then went to Islamic schools in Pakistan, near the Afghan border.”




Hey, that's our frontline ally on terror. Hurry, give them more weapons and money.

The government spy on you already, you are that naive to think the governement do not know alot about you. Every credit card transaction can be tracked, they know where you live, the know your job, they know your car, they know EVERYTHING!

ID cards will be a mini passport, I can't see the problem! If anything they will be a benfit as you will always have proof of identity on you and proof of age.

Yesh, but we don't have to be complicit with President Blair's attack on our civil rights.

Yesh, but we don't have to be complicit with President Blair's attack on our civil rights.

How does an ID card attack civil rights? I have a state ID card and I still have all of my civil rights.

How does an ID card attack civil rights? I have a state ID card and I still have all of my civil rights.

This is a little difficult to explain, but the British are remarkably private people. What they do, and where they do it is no ones business but their own so long as the activity is legal. As such the idea of having a document that identifies you, where you went, what you did, is, in the minds of the British an infringement on their right to privacy. The ID cards being proposed are seen as the tip of the iceberg on personal data collection by the government. This is something that we simply do not trust. We know it is happening, but while we can pretend that it is just an odd fact here or there, we are content.

What we do not believe, is that any such data collection will have any effect on terrorism at all.

Thank you Alien Born :)

It is much appreciated.

Alien Born is spot on. There's a NO2ID campaign that I'm a member of, though I don't have the link handy.

Alien Born is spot on. There's a NO2ID campaign that I'm a member of, though I don't have the link handy.

NO2ID Campaign Website (http://www.no2id.org.uk/)

The trouble is, last time we had mandatory ID cards in the UK was 60 years ago during WWII. The police and the military could stop you and ask to see your identity card, and if you didn't have it with you then dire things could happen, all because of the risk of espionage and invasion during the war.

Now, we don't want to give the police or the military that kind of power over people. And unless we do then ID cards won't be effective.

Plus the fact that we don't like giving the government power over all that information.

Cheers. Here's a related campaign:

The pledge. (http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse)

err ......

how old are you?

Guess he is like corny and the other neocons about 12. Never saw such a stupid regard on the origin of the bombings as the ones of the neocons. Er, euh, creationists..

Yesh, but we don't have to be complicit with President Blair's attack on our civil rights.
And I wouldn't be able to buy beer eather!

A;ien Bron is quite right, and may I just say that ID cards would not help at all, why? because the terrorist will probably have them, a big waste of money.

And I wouldn't be able to buy beer eather!

A;ien Bron is quite right, and may I just say that ID cards would not help at all, why? because the terrorist will probably have them, a big waste of money.

A bit simple, don't you think?
It will make a Identity control way easier, like in most civilised nations.

oops I forgot, like you did not want to hand over the Londonistan terrorists that killed a lot of people half the 90ties in the Paris metro towards France, I guess you must feel great to have those guys acting in London now.

Guess he is like corny and the other neocons about 12. Never saw such a stupid regard on the origin of the bombings as the ones of the neocons. Er, euh, creationists..

Hello.....

I condemned these bombings in the strongest sense. I have to ask dear sir/ma'am on where you are getting this impression?

BTW: I'm way over 12.

Police evacuate Birmingham centre

About 20,000 people have been evacuated from Birmingham city centre amid a security alert.

West Midlands Police asked people to leave Broad Street, the main entertainment hub and two other areas. Some city homes were also evacuated.

No vehicles are being allowed past the inner ring road into the city centre.

Police said a controlled explosion had been carried out earlier in the evening on a bus in Corporation Street, following a phone call from the public.

Officers now believe that the item destroyed had not posed a threat.

Police said the evacuation was a "proportionate response" to intelligence received, but were not giving specific details.

Birmingham resident Kenneth Kelsall told the BBC: "There is a lot of confusion, there appears to be no chance of anyone moving back into the city - but people are remaining quiet."

The BBC's Zoe Gough said there was confusion and people were trying to find out information but there was no panic.

'Gridlocked' streets

"Everybody is just being turned round and the main roads out of the city seem to be gridlocked, although traffic does seem to be moving," she said.

"I have seen some cars just pulled up and also people walking along with suitcases away from city centre as if they have been stranded there.

"People who have come here to have a good time have been trying to carry on with their evening, but the area being evacuated seems to be widening...

"The lot of roads are like ghost streets, when they normally would be packed with people. "

The assistant chief constable of West Midlands Police, Stuart Hyde, said he did not think the incident was connected to the bombs in London earlier this week.

"We are asking people who are there at the moment to go home, to have the evening off, this will help us considerably."

He said the decision to close such a large part of the city had not been taken lightly.

"We have made this decision after careful analysis and consideration and we are very, very grateful to the public for their understanding.

"We believe it is a proportionate response to the information.

"Finally I would ask members of the public to stay vigilant."

West Midlands Police announced they had received intelligence of a possible threat to the area at about 2015 BST.

Initially people were told to be on their guard, and that bars and restaurants were being searched. Motorists were also told not to come into the city centre.

However, about half an hour later, police said the city was to be evacuated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668313.stm

Yea, I saw that on Fox News. Any more information outside of what has already been reported? Has it been lifted yet and what presicely was the intel that caused this evacuation?

No, nothing new. Guess we´ll just have to wait. Anyway, other than BBC, I suppose this web will be handy to find out what´s going on:

http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/

Well... goodnight.

They have carried out a controlled explosion on a suspect package in central Birmingham (Broad Street) and have also now closed the Chinese sector of town due to more intel.

Interesting...

Oh btw, i think the controlled explosion was on a bus.

Seems to be a copy cat in this link. Of all places its in Bejing, China

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-07/09/content_3197444.htm

There was no explosive devices in Birmingham, false alarm! God..we are going so paranoid!

Stepping away from the current direction of the descussion for a moment. (but not too far) I would like to say that, though angered by this, I am not suprised. Britian was stupid enough to leave their boarders wide open, letting anyone in, even if they were from terrorist sponsering countries. What is worse, Muslim (yes, I said Muslim) extremists said that they were going to do this on May 23 2005. And they were already in London. No arrests were made. What were the British thinking? And all I have heard is one empty suit after another get up and make a speach about nothing. I am angry at the bastards who launched this attack. I am angry at our leaders who still continue to do nothing.

What really unerves me as an American, is that my country is doing much of the same things. Rampant political correctness is not only handicapping our military, but is handicapping our anti-terrorism law enforcement. Plus, our Mexican boarder is wide open. Illegals pour over every day. Aside from the economic disaster that this is causing, it is a national security nightmare. Who's to say that one of those boarder jumpers isn't a terrorist. How many more inocent people must be slaughtered by these neo-nazis in head scarfs, who wrap themselves in a religion and hide behind a copy of the Koran, before we close our boarders? Not to mention the countless other actions that must be taken we want our children to inhabit a world that isn't up in flames. Wake up and smell the dirty bombs, people.

Ok, first, illegal immigration only causes economic problems because they can't get legal work. See the problem here? Make it legal, and we benefit. Immigration has been proven, more times than I can even count, to be good for economies

Second, closing borders to immigration wouldn't do anything. Except tell the terrorists we're afraid enough of them to reject a long history of giving asylum, and of being great nations to move to.

There was no explosive devices in Birmingham, false alarm! God..we are going so paranoid!

Pretty sure that when it's that strong a threat, 'better safe than sorry' rings true.

http://i.timeinc.net/time/cartoons/20050708/1.jpg

I love it... :)

http://i.timeinc.net/time/cartoons/20050708/1.jpg

I love it... :)

I love the pic myself :) Accurate :D