NationStates Jolt Archive

I think that the right to free speech is pretty good here in the UK, and my Canadian tells me that its better than in Canada and that Canada has more real free speech that the US....is this a generally held opinion?

I disagree that there is a reduction of freedom of speech in the United States. After all, if there were, would not Michael Moore's Fahrenehit 9/11 been squashed here instead of being widely available in every video store and Wal-Mart?

There are plenty of news articles condemning Bush and his cabinet as well... and as you can see, there are plenty of posters here who are US Americans -- and certainly feel no reason to curb their speech.

You are right. This is nothing like the Christian crusades, which were actually caused by the Byzantine Empire. Also, only four of the eight crusades went to the holy land, one went to Constantinople, one to Carthage, and two to Damietta in Egypt. The fact that these people disobey the Holy Quran shows that they are not real muslims at all. And hence we should not blame ordinary Muslims for this.

I agree with this totally.

As soon as I heard about it I was thinking: Al Qaeda Strikes Again.

Bush continues his "bring them to justice" BS, while Tony Blair makes some good, intelligent points. Loading Elaboration...

Don't know about Canada, but the US definitely has more free speech than the UK when it comes to public racist rants.

Griffin would be able to make all the speeches he's made in the UK with no fear of government intervention here in the US.

I prefer it our way really, although I do relaise it is a violation of free speech. I think its just a case of striking the right balance.

12 dead-sydney Morning Herald.

You are right. This is nothing like the Christian crusades, which were actually caused by the Byzantine Empire. Also, only four of the eight crusades went to the holy land, one went to Constantinople, one to Carthage, and two to Damietta in Egypt. The fact that these people disobey the Holy Quran shows that they are not real muslims at all. And hence we should not blame ordinary Muslims for this.

What about the Albigensian Crusade that went to France.

For those of you who can read German:
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,364104,00.html

It's a newsticker that seems to be fairly accurate and a lot quicker than the BBC or Guardian websites.

I mourn with the Britian. They have the United States prayers, sympathies, and our resolve. We learned our resolve from Britian in WWII. You are our greatest friends. We have learned our lessons well, because we had the greatest teacher in recent history. We continue to fight for our children.

The Geneva Convention were established to prevent mass unethical slaughter when government went to war. They were design to make war as humane as possible. We stand united against those that do not believe in them and slaughter civilians as their main target. They could not kill heavily armed troops so they target un-armed civilians. The G8 forgive, FORGIVE! Africa's debt, some of them being Arab nations. The terriost have no compassion, no ethics, no protection from any international law. May their god protect them, may God be with us. We will win this war no matter the cost. You are British, We are Americans. "Nothing you do no matter how many you kill..." we will fight. - Mayor of London. We stand with you and learned our resolve from you.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/general/12-dead-scores-injured-in-london-blasts/2005/07/07/1120704485774.html?oneclick=true]]

Link.

Anyone who thinks innocent people "deserve" to be bombed are no better than the animals who commit the bombing, There is a special place in hell for you animals.

My heart goes out to all affected.

I'm at an office between King's Cross and Moorgate; I'm just glad that my family, friends and I are all safe. I think. The blame game can be played tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned.

LONDON (AP) Hospital officials say more than 300 people have been treated for injuries at London hospitals.

I prefer it our way really, although I do relaise it is a violation of free speech. I think its just a case of striking the right balance.

We're usually smart enough to identify assholes. It does have the salutary effect of defusing their anger - let them rant some in public, people tend to ignore them, and they can't remain angry enough after ranting to do anything really bad.

Damned islamists. Slow, painful death is too good for them. :mad:

My thoughts are with the people of London and the UK.

:headbang: whats infuriating is that really, islam, judaism and chritianity are, whether they would admit it or not, more sects of the global faith of the belief of god. they all praise the same god. islam believes in jesus as a prohet. if people realised that the song called "areas of contention" were really minute in relation to the points of similarity everything would be so much easiar.

I disagree that there is a reduction of freedom of speech in the United States. After all, if there were, would not Michael Moore's Fahrenehit 9/11 been squashed here instead of being widely available in every video store and Wal-Mart?

There are plenty of news articles condemning Bush and his cabinet as well... and as you can see, there are plenty of posters here who are US Americans -- and certainly feel no reason to curb their speech.

Yes, as various moderators may testify, I've been warned more than once.

Like George Bush?

or jerry fallwell? i can't stick around, i have to phone relatives in the UK and make sure everyone's okay.

Oh yeah that's right, because we only have big ginger haired guys with kilts here...

M-U-S-L-I-M? What's one of them?

Wow, people without milk-bottle white skin...what are these wonderous people???

Jeez, what do you think we are, some sort of middle-of-nowhere back water, where the people never leave their country and outsiders are shot on sight?? OK, we're not quite as multi-cultural as London, but we have fairly large Islamic and Asian minorities in Glasgow and Edinburgh. Admittedly, I have only seen about 10 black people in Scotland in my whole life, but still...

YES, SCOTLAND IS MOSTLY WHITE. :eek:
In other news, the sky is blue.

C'mon now. Do you really expect me to take that seriously? Of course you have minorities. And they might be even 5% of the population. And they're probably lovely folks that everyone know. How many Muslims are going to vacation in Scotland? It's more remote, it's harder to strike at. That's the point.

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

Islam is not a religion of peace if you read the Qu'ran. There are peaceful Muslims, but that is not because their scripture endorses peace. Their religion has traditionally been one of murder, conquest, and war. This is nothing new, but always horrible.

Oh yeah that's right, because we only have big ginger haired guys with kilts here...


M-U-S-L-I-M? What's one of them?

Wow, people without milk-bottle white skin...what are these wonderous people???


This made me giggle. Thank you ... I needed a laugh. :D

(Your friendly neighborhood 6'4" blue eyed Irish Jew turned Muslim)

I'm at an office between King's Cross and Moorgate; I'm just glad that my family, friends and I are all safe. I think. The blame game can be played tomorrow, as far as I'm concerned.


Thats good news and wise thinking. Best wishes to you and yours.

fox just said 40 dead 300 hurt

LONDON (AP) -- Three blasts rocked the London subway and one tore open a packed double-decker bus during the morning rush hour Thursday, sending bloodied victims fleeing in what a shaken Prime Minister Tony Blair called "barbaric" terrorist attacks. A U.S. law enforcement official said at least 40 people were killed and London hospitals reported more than 300 injured

The U.S. official spoke on condition of anonymity because British officials have yet to make public the death toll. U.S. authorities learned of the number from their British counterparts, according to the official.

Like George Bush?

George doesn't rant. If you've noticed. He's not one for long public speeches, or even good public speeches.

We tend to elect the people who rant the least.

Damned islamists. Slow, painful death is too good for them. :mad:

My thoughts are with the people of London and the UK.
Don't blame Islam, blame mad frantics, there ones in all religions.

23 Feared at Kings cross
9 Dead didn't get the location :(
7 Dead AlGate (spelled wrong sorry)
2 russel squared

Roughly 40 dead :(

1000 people possibly wounded

*abulance figures*

LONDON (AP) -- Three blasts rocked the London subway and one tore open a packed double-decker bus during the morning rush hour Thursday, sending bloodied victims fleeing in what a shaken Prime Minister Tony Blair called "barbaric" terrorist attacks. A U.S. law enforcement official said at least 40 people were killed and London hospitals reported more than 300 injured

The U.S. official spoke on condition of anonymity because British officials have yet to make public the death toll. U.S. authorities learned of the number from their British counterparts, according to the official.
Shit.

Don't blame Islam, blame mad frantics, there ones in all religions.

Quite right!! Damned fanatics...

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

I hope that this does not distract the summit from the enviroment and Africa (even though is was sceptical) it seems a perfect get out route for GWB.

23 Feared at Kings cross
9 Dead didn't get the location :(
7 Dead AlGate (spelled wrong sorry)
2 russel squared

Roughly 40 dead :(

1000 people possibly wounded

*abulance figures*
Source.

14:20 London Transport confirms the bus hit by one of today's bombs was a number 30, travelling from Hackney to Marble Arch.

What about the Albigensian Crusade that went to France.

That's a fair point. When defining crusade, I was referring to the Eastern frontier of Christianity and the Crusades that were intended to make war upon Islamic forces, although in the case of the Fourth Crusade it did, of course, become "derailed." I tend to view the destruction of the Cathars as more of an internal action of Church, striking against what they viewed as a perversion of their own faith, rather than a conflict against Islam and its hold of holy sites in the East.

Islam is not a religion of peace if you read the Qu'ran.

Then explain every quote I've made from Qur'an proving it to be a religion of peace. It even commands that Muslims are to try negotiations and use war as a last resort and that war may only be in self defense. Qur'an commands that we damage no trees nor hurt civilians in war. Qur'an commands that if the enemy desires peace, we are to seek peace immediately.

Qur'an has no instances where it is ok to conquer anyone or anything. Even if we win a war waged against us, we are to ask only recompense for expenses and we are to help rebuild anything we damaged. Then we are to leave the people be.

I do not wish to deal with your ignorance right now as I'm sure in the next couple of weeks I will have to deal with a lot of it. Believe me, though, if you wish to truly have this discussion, then make a thread on it and make sure you come well armed.

Quite right!! Damned fanatics...

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg
Thanks

Source.
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/ :
14:24 Ambulance sources suggest 23 people have been killed at King's Cross, nine at Edgware road, seven at Aldgate, 2 at Russell Square.

This is wait I feared. That the toll would start to rise dramatically once they were able to start sorting through the wreckage.

I also hope there are no efforts to bomb the rescue/medical personel as is often a tactic.

Source.

Reported by Fox News but I believe they are waiting for an official word. Though someone else reported that American Intel is also reporting that number and they heard through British officials.

Then explain every quote I've made from Qur'an proving it to be a religion of peace. It even commands that Muslims are to try negotiations and use war as a last resort and that war may only be in self defense. Qur'an commands that we damage no trees nor hurt civilians in war. Qur'an commands that if the enemy desires peace, we are to seek peace immediately.

Qur'an has no instances where it is ok to conquer anyone or anything. Even if we win a war waged against us, we are to ask only recompense for expenses and we are to help rebuild anything we damaged. Then we are to leave the people be.

I do not wish to deal with your ignorance right now as I'm sure in the next couple of weeks I will have to deal with a lot of it. Believe me, though, if you wish to truly have this discussion, then make a thread on it and make sure you come well armed.
Indeed, read it before you make statements, it's as much a religion of peace as Christianity.

Sparks can cause petrol fumes to ignite. But what we're talking here is more people calling up the bomb to make it explode - as in, the have a mobile connected to the bomb, and they ring it, and BOOM. Not entirely sure how, I'm no engineer.
And I'm out for now. My thoughts, once again, are with those in London.

Electric impulse, you can even connect it to an alarm in the cellphone.
Or make a small bomb out of the cellphone which will ignite the larger bomb.
I have seen it done unfortunately and I know of one young boy who lost his life trying to make it work.

I cannot comprehend the tragedy, it's to cruel to the people who has been struck by this. And I fail to see the point in massmurder once again.
I am sorry that this happened, I hope we will not see similar actions in other countries.
But I doubt that people who kill this way will think of the victims as human beings.
And I dearly hope that no child is hurt by this, a foolish hope maybe, but still I hope for it.

Reported by Fox News but I believe they are waiting for an official word. Though someone else reported that American Intel is also reporting that number and they heard through British officials.
Offcial.

Yes, as various moderators may testify, I've been warned more than once.

;) Aye, but it's more cautioning you on the way you express your message -- not the content thereof.

And we cannot get clearance to use RSP on any of our posters.

Electric impulse, you can even connect it to an alarm in the cellphone.
Or make a small bomb out of the cellphone which will ignite the larger bomb.
I have seen it done unfortunately and I know of one young boy who lost his life trying to make it work.

I cannot comprehend the tragedy, it's to cruel to the people who has been struck by this. And I fail to see the point in massmurder once again.
I am sorry that this happened, I hope we will not see similar actions in other countries.
But I doubt that people who kill this way will think of the victims as human beings.
And I dearly hope that no child is hurt by this, a foolish hope maybe, but still I hope for it.
No reports of children dead yet.

No reports of children dead yet.

I haven't heard of any. And so far, I'm thanking God for that.

http://www.drudgereport.com/ says 40+ dead and 300+ wounded...

I haven't heard of any. And so far, I'm thanking God for that.
Indeed.

The bus that has been blown up has been confirmed as number 30 travelling from Hackney to Marble Arch. Not tourist bus.

BBC news ticker

I haven't heard of any. And so far, I'm thanking God for that.

Not likely really given that the stations bombed were mainly used by adults going to work. School children were probably in school by the time the blasts went off. Thank fuck this wasn't in a few weeks others wise it would of been summer holidays...

The bus that has been blown up has been confirmed as number 30 travelling from Hackney to Marble Arch. Not tourist bus.

BBC news ticker
Already been said, BBC are behind.

IIRC, he's charged with inciting racial hatred. There's no law against inciting racial hatred in the US.

He's charged with inciting religious hatred--which is totally ridiculous, because that hasn't actually been passed as a law yet.



This wicked, vicious faith has expanded through a handful of cranky lunatics about 1,300 years ago until it is now sweeping country after country [...] If you get a copy of the Koran you will find verse after verse after verse which says that you can take any woman you want as long as they are not Muslim women; any woman that your right arm can own - that is the sword arm, the fighting arm, the arm you hit a white lad with a baseball bat. Any woman they can take by force or by guile is theirs.

That's what he was arrested for saying. Which I think is pretty absurd given what people are allowed to say about Catholicism. Especially when you take into account that there are verses in the Koran to support these statements.

Islam is an ideology, same as Communism, Bushido, Christianity or any other. I find it worrying that you are no longer allowed to criticize it, as the implication is that everything in it is right and disagreeing with it is wrong.



Believe me when I say I dispise the BNP for all they are I do....

However it seems the al-queda groups will never stop coming into countries and using suicide bombers to cause mass terror and there is NOTHING more frightening than someone who kills him/her self along with anyone else nearby....

In response.... maybe we should pull up the drawbridge on Britain until ACCURATE ways of keeping track of people entering this country can be created, and to the people already here... destroy not close down, DESTROY the known terrorist training grounds, imprison the people that are known to go there ALSO their families, its one thing for the bomber to blow THEMSELVES up but the families of these people think its fantastic their child has done this. I would lock ALL of them up and NEVER let them out, isolation cells with literally bread and water in the cell nothing more, not even a light bulb....

You say you despise them and yet you propose measures that are too extreme for even them? People in glass houses?



Lol.
That BNP video implies there is a link between illegal immigrants into this country and terrorism. While this is possibly the case, they neglect to mention that it is also possible for British citizens, perhaps who have lived in Britain all their lives, to be won over by racial propaganda, who then might wish to engage in terrorist activities. And members of the BNP? Yep, they've been won over by racial propaganda.

NOTE: I am not implying that the BNP will inevitably resort to terrorism in order to achieve their goals.

Possibly the case? Don't be a fool, it quite clearly is the case. And if you're not implying the BNP will resort to terrorism, what are you implying? Is there a point in there somewhere?

And I dearly hope that no child is hurt by this, a foolish hope maybe, but still I hope for it.


My hope as well. But even if none were physically injured, its safe to assume many will suffer the loss of a loved one today.

How many people can a double-decker bus seat?

How many people can a double-decker bus seat?

52 seated

As of now, the official figures, released through the BBC are of 2 Dead. Please stop believing inflated figures that are reported else where.

Unlike some other countries, the British do not go in for exaggerating claims of damage and losses. As and when deaths can be confirmed they are reported, until they are confirmed though, they are not.

http://www.drudgereport.com/ says 40+ dead and 300+ wounded...

And their source for that... Associated Press saying "A U.S. law enforcement official said at least 40 people were killed and London hospitals reported more than 300 wounded." Hardly from the horse's mouth.

How many people can a double-decker bus seat?
60?

52 seated

plus about 30 standing

52 seated

72 max for London buses. (standing too)

As of now, the official figures, released through the BBC are of 2 Dead. Please stop believing inflated figures that are reported else where.

Unlike some other countries, the British do not go in for exaggerating claims of damage and losses. As and when deaths can be confirmed they are reported, until they are confirmed though, they are not.
There the abulance figures.

Two people are known to have died on buses, last I heard (about ten minutes ago) from the BBC there were "a lot" of fatalities in the blasts on the train; twenty confirmed.

Already been said, BBC are behind.

No just me...


How many people can a double-decker bus seat?

Say 50 sitting with a few mybe standing full capacity.

As of now, the official figures, released through the BBC are of 2 Dead. Please stop believing inflated figures that are reported else where.

Unlike some other countries, the British do not go in for exaggerating claims of damage and losses. As and when deaths can be confirmed they are reported, until they are confirmed though, they are not.
The Guardian's news blog has figures that have been reported elsewhere in this thread.

Suddenly, the terrible scale of today's attack becomes clear. Ambulance sources, reported on Sky, suggest 23 people have been killed at King's Cross, nine at Edgware road, seven at Aldgate, two at Russell Square. There are hundreds - possibly more than a thousand - injured. We're trying to verify the numbers

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/

Possibly the case? Don't be a fool, it quite clearly is the case. And if you're not implying the BNP will resort to terrorism, what are you implying? Is there a point in there somewhere?
No, it is possibly the case. What's more likely - an illegal immigrant, in danger at any moment of being arrested and deported, being part of terrorist activity, or someone with a British passport, not acting suspiciously at all, with no danger of any kind of police investigation into his activities, being part of terrorist activities? I think the latter.
And the point of the BNP was just a comment against the stupidity and simple mindedness of people who join the party. Despite what it may claim, it is a one-policy party, and an extreme party at that.
How many people can a double-decker bus seat? Up to 75 if it's packed, with people standing as well.

And their source for that... Associated Press saying "A U.S. law enforcement official said at least 40 people were killed and London hospitals reported more than 300 wounded." Hardly from the horse's mouth.

How about the Gaurdian? http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/

They're reporting 41 dead and 1000+ wounded.

Well, CNN says it was a power surge.
there not saying that now. Saying it's alquaida. At least it's a fairly low death count.

You say you despise them and yet you propose measures that are too extreme for even them? People in glass houses?

I do not share ANY of thie views at all, however SOMETHING needs to be done do you not agree? Else we all, not just in Britain, ANYWHERE are little more than cannon fodder, to be killed anywhere, anytime, and personally I do not want me or any of my family as a "statistic".


If that makes me in a glass house then so be it. I want my family safe and I want people who CAN make things happen TO makes things happen. Extreme or otherwise Iam SICK of woolie handed people saying "oh you cant do this and you cant do that" and you cant defend yourself because you get in more trouble than criminals and the people that SHOULD protect us, dont.....

How about the Gaurdian?

At least they give a direct source for their claims.

Just saw the news footage of a building spattered by the blood of those poor souls on the double decker bus, maybe splashed is more correct....if there were any survivors of that appaling carnage I will be stunned..but please god let it be that there ARE only 2 dead.

last a looked it was only two reported dead. This means our government (uk) will use this as an excuse to cut down on rights in the fight against terror

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659957.stm

Overview for now...

Just saw the news footage of a building spattered by the blood of those poor souls on the double decker bus, maybe splashed is more correct....if there were any survivors of that appaling carnage I will be stunned..but please god let it be that there ARE only 2 dead.
i think the official count has rissen sadly. I think about six explosions reported.

is anyone else troubled by the compelling viewing of this all? it is, for lack of a better word, fascinating. i experianced the same incapability to draw myself from the screen during the culmination of the beslan crisis. is it wrong to be completely enthralled by events? dont get me wrong, i am very very deeply troubled by the attacks, but the constant news coverage, and spectacle thereof, seems rather perverse.

Thats good news and wise thinking. Best wishes to you and yours.
Thanks, much appreciated.

As of now, the official figures, released through the BBC are of 2 Dead. Please stop believing inflated figures that are reported else where.

Unlike some other countries, the British do not go in for exaggerating claims of damage and losses. As and when deaths can be confirmed they are reported, until they are confirmed though, they are not.
Sorry, but the BBC is really lacking in up-to-date information. The Guardian is quicker and there you can find:
1424 Suddenly, the terrible scale of today's attack becomes clear. Ambulance sources, reported on Sky, suggest 23 people have been killed at King's Cross, nine at Edgware road, seven at Aldgate, two at Russell Square. There are hundreds - possibly more than a thousand - injured. We're trying to verify the numbers.
The impression is that there have been a lot of casualties. From the pictures and eyewitness reports it seems unlikely that there are only 2 fatalities. It would be a miracle, but somehow I believe the final figure to be higher.

"100.000 men can't rule 28 million, nor are they seeking to."

Somebody's never heard the words, "British" and "India" in the same sentence, then?


That aside, there's a strange focus on numbers, here. I don't know, it feels a bit like, well, I suppose it is measuring the tragedy as if we can say, "Oh well, at least it wasn't as bad as 9/11" but I don't see that really helping anyone. I dunno.

And now back to twiddling my thumbs and waiting for resolution to my London-based friend's cryptic, "hospital!" away message.

Newsflash... That is the Al-Qaeda's official stance on this matter and they have been quoted many times with similar phrases.

I'm not here to argue what led them to attack us in the first place for simply no reason's whatsoever could possibly justify what they did on 9/11 and prior to that.

All I'm saying is that the focus should've been on Al-Qaeda all along and that the Iraqi mess just made matters worse ten fold.

But then again I'm not much of a card player

Of course it's Al-Qaeda's official stance, they're just trying to canvas support. Fact is their most devastating attack came well before the war in Iraq, and they once volunteered to help overthrow Hussein themselves. As for the focus being on Al-Qaeda all along, well, you must be forgetting Afghanistan. That whole mess is ongoing, you know--thousands of British soldiers are due to head over there pretty shortly. It's just not as fashionable in media circles any more.

Oh, and you don't need to be a card player to know how to stack 'em. That must be where you've been going wrong.

Emergency Services News Conference at 10 AM Estern

Kids could have easily been hurt if it wasn't at a time when they were in school. I posted about the bombing on a site mainly containing people my age (14), though some older and some younger, and got these two responses:

There is no network coverage on the phones, so I'm at home (our school was evacuated) and my mum isn't home, and I can't get in touch with her because of the no network coverage, and I really hope she is alright.

And also, this one:

Schools were meant to keep everyone in, but they let us all out, because more than half of us take the trains.

Some mobile networks are up, and the phones are starting to get better.

Love Kat.

So everything is going a bit crazy around schools in London. I know a lot of people who live near or in London, too - though I live in between Manchester and Liverpool, myself.

How about the Gaurdian? http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/

They're reporting 41 dead and 1000+ wounded.
The Guardian blogspot, while not unreliable, isn't definitive. Don't necessarily believe all figures you find on it.
Ironically, the building spattered with blood is the BMA head office. That's the British Medical Association, for those of you who don't know.

The Guardian blogspot, while not unreliable, isn't definitive. Don't necessarily believe all figures you find on it.

Those figures are from Sky News.

Sorry, but the BBC is really lacking in up-to-date information. The Guardian is quicker and there you can find:

The impression is that there have been a lot of casualties. From the pictures and eyewitness reports it seems unlikely that there are only 2 fatalities. It would be a miracle, but somehow I believe the final figure to be higher.

I likewise believe the final figure will be higher, but unconfirmed reports of casualties are of no benefitr to anyone. The BBC figures are based on the confirmed figures. They are not, unlike the Grauniad and other sources, estimated figures based on Sky's sensationalist journalism style..

Best wishes to everyone caught up in this, I'm heading home now.

the Grauniad
Private Eye reader, by any chance?

Isn't it about 45 dead now?


They said 2 dead and 45 dead AT THE SAME TIME

Private Eye reader, by any chance?

Here's something for you to try out: see what the first result you get is when you do a google search for "the grauniad"...

is anyone else troubled by the compelling viewing of this all? it is, for lack of a better word, fascinating. i experianced the same incapability to draw myself from the screen during the culmination of the beslan crisis. is it wrong to be completely enthralled by events? dont get me wrong, i am very very deeply troubled by the attacks, but the constant news coverage, and spectacle thereof, seems rather perverse.

It's just human nature, unfortunately. It's for the same reason people RP wars for fun. If we didn't find them appealing on some level we just wouldn't do it. After all, no-one who isn't genuinely sick in the head would RP the rape of children or anything, except in the context of "Public Execution of Paedophiles" or a police investigation or whatever.

We saw the same thing on September 11th. Everyone knew it was a terrible, terrible thing, but well before that sunk in people found themselves more enthralled by the "cool" factor of jumbo jets smashing into towering skyscrapers in big fiery balls than the human tragedy.

It is perverse, but pretending it isn't and trying to paper over it with mock-solemnity and "horror" is just disrespectful as far as I'm concerned. If it isn't affecting you pretty directly you can't help but be somewhat detached from it.

is anyone else troubled by the compelling viewing of this all? it is, for lack of a better word, fascinating. i experianced the same incapability to draw myself from the screen during the culmination of the beslan crisis. is it wrong to be completely enthralled by events? dont get me wrong, i am very very deeply troubled by the attacks, but the constant news coverage, and spectacle thereof, seems rather perverse.


Many people are watching intently. Most of us are troubled and saddened by these attacks. And with the availability of information almost immediately, we keep our attention on it. Maybe hoping for some good news too...

This shit is crazy. I just woke up and turned on the news to find out some serious shit's gone down in London. My heart goes out to Brits...this is terrible news.

Many people are watching intently. Most of us are troubled and saddened by these attacks. And with the availability of information almost immediately, we keep our attention on it. Maybe hoping for some good news too...
Amen to that.

I am thankfull that the total casuatlies are small

of course any is too many, but this i hope should be enough to avoid any huge knee jerk reactions

The last thing the world needs is more people trying brute force solutlions to terrorisum

<cross your fingers>

It's just human nature, unfortunately. It's for the same reason people RP wars for fun. If we didn't find them appealing on some level we just wouldn't do it. After all, no-one who isn't genuinely sick in the head would RP the rape of children or anything, except in the context of "Public Execution of Paedophiles" or a police investigation or whatever.

We saw the same thing on September 11th. Everyone knew it was a terrible, terrible thing, but well before that sunk in people found themselves more enthralled by the "cool" factor of jumbo jets smashing into towering skyscrapers in big fiery balls than the human tragedy.

It is perverse, but pretending it isn't and trying to paper over it with mock-solemnity and "horror" is just disrespectful as far as I'm concerned. If it isn't affecting you pretty directly you can't help but be somewhat detached from it.

i couldnt agree more, whilst i am troubled by it. i feel almost numb about it. i dont really have particulary strong emotions over the whole thing. its all just very impersonal. it reminds me of meursault in l'estranger .

Ok, don't know if this has already been said, but it's now believed that there were 4 explosions. The figure of 7 was due to the explosions on the Underground causing chaos at 2 stations each, due to being on trains between stations. A statement will be made shortly by the emergency services regarding the exact numbers of dead and injured.

Private Eye reader, by any chance?

A long time ago, (1980s) yes. Private Eye is not available in Brazil, is it still going in the UK?

A long time ago, (1980s) yes. Private Eye is not available in Brazil, is it still going in the UK?
Yep, I still get it from time to time. Not done so for a while though.

My thoughts are with all of you in London and those of you who are waiting to hear from loved ones in London. I'm at a loss for words.

Anyone in this thread live in London?

Does anyone else think it's odd that London gets bombed the day after it wins the 2012 Olympics?

Anyone in this thread live in London?

yeah.were a big city though, the areas hit are not really residential.

I am thankfull that the total casuatlies are small

of course any is too many, but this i hope should be enough to avoid any huge knee jerk reactions

The last thing the world needs is more people trying brute force solutlions to terrorisum

<cross your fingers>

The British, and I am one of them, have too much experience with terrorism to try brute force solutions as a reaction to these types of things. We will calmly and clearly plan an effective and meaningful reaction. this may be very slow, and not at all obvious to the world at large, but it will happen. The people responsible for this will be found and dealt with. This does not mean another full scale war, it means inteligence work, police work, and specialist teams to effect a resolution.

My condolences go out to the families of those who have died today, to the injured, and to all of Britain.

Ok, don't know if this has already been said, but it's now believed that there were 4 explosions. The figure of 7 was due to the explosions on the Underground causing chaos at 2 stations each, due to being on trains between stations. A statement will be made shortly by the emergency services regarding the exact numbers of dead and injured.

The Home Secretary confirmed that there were at least four. When I first got up (at, like, 11:30am...) the number was estimated at six, then later went up to seven. Right now we've got four of those down as definite, but the remainder await confirmation.

15:03 That news conference has been delayed. But we are hearing that Victoria, Euston and Paddington stations have re-opened this afternoon. St Pancras and Liverpool Street could also reopen soon. The only station likely to remain shut before tonight's rush-hour is the non-suburban (ie - Intercity) bit of King's Cross. The tube, of course, remains completely closed.

Sympathies to the wounded & families of the killed. I pray that they find comfort.

The British, and I am one of them, have too much experience with terrorism to try brute force solutions as a reaction to these types of things. We will calmly and clearly plan an effective and meaningful reaction. this may be very slow, and not at all obvious to the world at large, but it will happen. The people responsible for this will be found and dealt with. This does not mean another full scale war, it means inteligence work, police work, and specialist teams to effect a resolution.

exactly.justice not vengance.

Does anyone else think it's odd that London gets bombed the day after it wins the 2012 Olympics?

It'll be co-ordinated with the G8 summit because half the police force of london are up in scotland to deal with Bob Geldof's million protester demonstration.

I don't think the olympics had anything to do with it.

(Mind you, someone should take Geldof to task for trying to stage a demonstration that size in scotland, which clearly didn't have the resources to deal with it in the first place).

exactly.justice not vengance.

Oh, I see. You think these people can do this sort of thing to you, and not expect a little payback?

Does anyone else think it's odd that London gets bombed the day after it wins the 2012 Olympics?

OMG. The French are responsible!

No. This is too quick to be a response to London's surprise win, and it has far more to do with all the security focus having been off of London and on Edinburgh and Gleneagles for the G8 conference. A fact that has been known for months now.

It'll be co-ordinated with the G8 summit because half the police force of london are up in scotland to deal with Bob Geldof's million protester demonstration.

I don't think the olympics had anything to do with it.

(Mind you, someone should take Geldof to task for trying to stage a demonstration that size in scotland, which clearly didn't have the resources to deal with it in the first place).

We could call it the Million Asshole March.

The British, and I am one of them, have too much experience with terrorism to try brute force solutions as a reaction to these types of things. We will calmly and clearly plan an effective and meaningful reaction. this may be very slow, and not at all obvious to the world at large, but it will happen. The people responsible for this will be found and dealt with. This does not mean another full scale war, it means inteligence work, police work, and specialist teams to effect a resolution.
Well said.

Can anyone explain to me where the hell wikepedia got this from? Ambulance sources suggest 23 people have been killed at King's Cross, nine at Edgware road, seven at Aldgate, two at Russell Square. There are hundreds - possibly more than a thousand - injured. [http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/}

More than a thousand?? HUH???? No, I don't think so.....no news programme is saying anywhere near this!! 1 maybe 2 hundred, but not a thousand.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_London_transport_explosions#Infrastructure_and_Transport_status)

Oh, don't know if this was already posted:

Full text of the statement given by Tony Blair on behalf of the G8 countries and the five non-G8 countries

Press Association
Thursday July 7, 2005

This is a statement on behalf of the G8 leaders but also the leaders of the five countries who have joined us at this summit.

And this is our joint and united statement.

We condemn utterly these barbaric attacks. We send our profound condolences to the victims and their families.

All of our countries have suffered from the impact of terrorism. Those responsible have no respect for human life.

We are united in our resolve to confront and defeat this terrorism that is not an attack on one nation but on all nations and on civilised people everywhere.

We will not allow violence to change our societies or our values. Nor will we allow it to stop the work of this summit.

We will continue our deliberations in the interests of a better world. Here at this summit, the world's leaders are striving to combat world poverty and save and improve human life.

The perpetrators of today's attacks are intent on destroying human life. The terrorists will not succeed.

Today's bombings will not weaken in any way our resolve to uphold the most deeply-held principles of our societies and to defeat those who would impose their fanaticism and extremism on all of us.

We shall prevail, and they shall not.

Oh, I see. You think these people can do this sort of thing to you, and not expect a little payback?

Go read what I posted. Then say that there will be no payback. There will, but only on those responsible, not on innocent people.

GLENEAGLES, Scotland (AP) British officials say the G-8 declarations on climate change and the global economy have been postponed until Friday.

I'm sorry for all the lost and hurt in London.
My heart goes out to your country and your people.

Sincerely,

A Somber American.

Does anyone else think it's odd that London gets bombed the day after it wins the 2012 Olympics?

It's thought that the attack was planned for yesterday when all the crowds and stuff were out and things were a lot busier (yesterday also being the first day of the G8 summit up in Gleneagles), but for some unknown reason had to be postponed.

Which, although it feels weird saying it, is probably a good thing. Less in the way of casualties, and my best friend was on one of the Underground routes which would've been (were, today) attacked.

Anyone in this thread live in London?

I live in London and I'm currently working at one of the hospitals receiving casualties. None of the media has reported on any of the casualty numbers being brought to UCH so I would expect the casualty figures to rise.

We have just been stood down from our MAJAX status which means we are not expecting large numbers of casualties anymore.

It'll be co-ordinated with the G8 summit because half the police force of london are up in scotland to deal with Bob Geldof's million protester demonstration.

I don't think the olympics had anything to do with it.

(Mind you, someone should take Geldof to task for trying to stage a demonstration that size in scotland, which clearly didn't have the resources to deal with it in the first place).

are you joking? geldof deserves (and is nominated and hotly tipped for) a nobel piece prize. p.s-does anyone remember a time when we arrested criminals with the police rather than bombing theyre mother nation into a smoking crater?

exactly.justice not vengance.

Agreed

I heard some 40 people were killed and 150 or more injured. And I'm going to Europe tomorrow! Aw, crap. :(

Go read what I posted. Then say that there will be no payback. There will, but only on those responsible, not on innocent people.
Yikes. I just got on NS...are people really suggesting that Britain start some sort of war over this? Is that really what people now think is an appropriate action? Scary. Tell me...had the US held this sort of opinion around the time of the Oklahoma city bombing...would they have declared civil war? Nevermind.

Has anyone claimed responsibility yet?

Has anyone claimed responsibility yet?

Al Qaeda.

OK. Just woken up and i''m gonna comment.

London is rather used to attacks of this kind, perhaps you never can get quite used to them, but we've had them before and we know what to do. And as far as i can tell the emergency plan is working very well for which i applaud the emergency services.

My feelings about this attack are ones really of perplexment, to attack london ? Doesnt make the world of sense, especially as there dont appear to have been attacks on anywhere particularly symbolic.

Bad things outside this attack: the G8 has been disturbed and masively urgent climate change talks probably wont achieve anything rather than the almost nothing they would.

Good things: If there really can be, silver lining on this'll have to be that this should lead to increased spending on public transport, and there can never be too much of that.

I wait for more news and thank god my boyfreind always takes taxis :D.

"100.000 men can't rule 28 million, nor are they seeking to."

Somebody's never heard the words, "British" and "India" in the same sentence, then?

... and that's why the US hasn't invaded any country for territorial gain since the Spanish-American War.

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

It's thought that the attack was planned for yesterday when all the crowds and stuff were out and things were a lot busier (yesterday also being the first day of the G8 summit up in Gleneagles), but for some unknown reason had to be postponed.

Which, although it feels weird saying it, is probably a good thing. Less in the way of casualties, and my best friend was on one of the Underground routes which would've been (were, today) attacked.

Gosh. Didn't know that. I was in London yesterday.

My mother is in London today but luckily got to work before the attacks.

Go read what I posted. Then say that there will be no payback. There will, but only on those responsible, not on innocent people.

You should see how the US has treated the majority of al-Qaeda people found overseas.

Very few of them went to Guantanamo.

Most were assassinated on the spot. That's payback. Sending them to a prison camp indefinitely, or even trying them before a court and sentencing them to a long term in prison is laughably light by comparison.

are you joking? geldof deserves (and is nominated and hotly tipped for) a nobel piece prize. p.s-does anyone remember a time when we arrested criminals with the police rather than bombing theyre mother nation into a smoking crater?

No I am not joking. Staging a demonstration, or trying to, of that size in a place like scotland was thoroughly irresponsible and served no purpose. Further, the massive amount of money it cost to police it would be far better off spent elsewhere. It's not like it accomplishes anything anyway.

And obviously the diversion of police manpower from the Capital to Edinbrough must at least have played a part in the timing of these attacks.

Yikes. I just got on NS...are people really suggesting that Britain start some sort of war over this? Is that really what people now think is an appropriate action? Scary. Tell me...had the US held this sort of opinion around the time of the Oklahoma city bombing...would they have declared civil war? Nevermind.

Has anyone claimed responsibility yet?

A previously unheard of group has claimed responsibility on the citidel web site. This is a site that Al Quaeda related groups have used in the past to make public announcements. But as always with the Brits, no rushed conclusions are being drawn. This claim may be true, it may not.

Can anyone explain to me where the hell wikepedia got this from?

More than a thousand?? HUH???? No, I don't think so.....no news programme is saying anywhere near this!! 1 maybe 2 hundred, but not a thousand.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_London_transport_explosions#Infrastructure_and_Transport_status)

Sky News reported it!

Sky News reported it!

Sky news is full of bullshit!! What are they trying to do cause widespread panic???

are you joking? geldof deserves (and is nominated and hotly tipped for) a nobel piece prize. p.s-does anyone remember a time when we arrested criminals with the police rather than bombing theyre mother nation into a smoking crater?

Yep. We tried it right up until 10 September 2001.
This kind of put a damper on that:

http://www.mirrors.org/historical/2001-09-11-World-Trade_Center/wtc/wtc_005.jpg

Sky news is full of bullshit!! What are they trying to do cause widespread panic???

Apparently they are reporting the news since British Officials are the one's that said it. Sky News just reported it.

You don't want the truth to be told?

I did not suggest that they would be arrested. I sai that specialist teams would be sent to deal with those responsible. Comprende amigo?

Does that include the british citzens who reside in britian and may have participated?

are you joking? geldof deserves (and is nominated and hotly tipped for) a nobel piece prize.

maybe for the organisation of the concerts yes, But for telling a MILLION people to march to a city that simply cannot cope with such a large influx of people at once and telling school children to bunk off school and march is stupidly irresponsible. If people did what he said and something happened in Edinburgh I would have held HIM responsible....

But thats going down the road of "what ifs" which is completely unnecessary.

I did not suggest that they would be arrested. I sai that specialist teams would be sent to deal with those responsible. Comprende amigo?
Ok. That's "bring them to justice" in the Bush sense, not the Hague sense.

A previously unheard of group has claimed responsibility on the citidel web site. This is a site that Al Quaeda related groups have used in the past to make public announcements. But as always with the Brits, no rushed conclusions are being drawn. This claim may be true, it may not.
Ouch! I hope others notice the sting in this remark!

We could call it the Million Asshole March.

The problem hasn't really been with Geldof's crusty hippy contingent, it's been with the black-clad, masked and dangerous Anarchist groups. They should never have been allowed here in the first place, and the police shouldn't have been made to walk on eggshells with them the way they have. It's been an utter farce, with these idiots terrorising locals and throwing crates at and beating riot police with lead pipes with little no no retaliation.

I've got a big camp-load of the bastards practically around the corner from me, and if it had been up to the general public and not limp-wristed idiots like Jack McConnel how they were dealt with we would've seen them subdued by baton and rubber bullet immediately, rather than allowed to run unchecked for hours.

It's been due to this woefully inadequate approach in dealing with Anarchist groups in Scotland that there were no counter-terrorist units prepared to stop these attacks down in London today, in my opinion.

The British, and I am one of them, have too much experience with terrorism to try brute force solutions as a reaction to these types of things. We will calmly and clearly plan an effective and meaningful reaction. this may be very slow, and not at all obvious to the world at large, but it will happen. The people responsible for this will be found and dealt with. This does not mean another full scale war, it means inteligence work, police work, and specialist teams to effect a resolution.

That is exactly what i hope will happen

but the iq of a mod is the iq of its stupidest member divided by the number in the mod

i agree though we have a large experiance of how to deal with terrorisum, for all N irelands problems, they have at least stopped bombing uk (still killing each other thougth)

Ouch! I hope others notice the sting in this remark!

What sting? *whistles innocently*

... and that's why the US hasn't invaded any country for territorial gain since the Spanish-American War.


What, because your point was proven wrong and because it (what you implied was absurd) works?
I don't know, you're a loon, never mind.



As to the reaction to this... yes, Britain has experience in this sort of thing and ought not over react, but Britain and the ever changing British government -not to mention the global political scene- aren't exactly the same thing.

7 confirmed fatalities at Moorgate/Liverpool Street, 21 confirmed at Kings Cross, 5 at Edgware Road, and an uncomfirmed number at Russell Square (the bus explosion). Over 300 patients treated in total for minor injuries, plus an unconfirmed number of more serious injuries.

What, because your point was proven wrong and because it (what you implied was absurd) works?
I don't know, you're a loon, never mind.

Thanks. Your name calling has proven to me that your POV is right. :rolleyes:

PS: What do you THINK I implied??

Septemeber 11th 1978. Long live Allende!

do you really think that bombing a country, as punishment for the beliefs of an extremist minority, would be an effective solution to preventing sufficient disillusionment in the law abiding majority to triger an extremist majority? yours as ignorant as the people you would condemn.

If you use a suffiicient number of thermonuclear weapons on that country, and you forcibly imprison people of that belief and country who are currently in your country, yes it would be extremely effective.

Unfortunately, we haven't done that. So our efforts to date are, not surprisingly, ineffective.

As a citizen of the United States, I would like to express my sorrow and outrage at the events in London this morning. I can only speculate as to the motivations of such misguided, extremist cowards, but if it has anything whatsoever to do with Britain's leadership marching in lock-step with the leadership here, I would also like to apologize.

Ave atque vale.

27 confirmed fatalities, and more un-confirmed btw (from the Met on the BBC)

just an update there, The Met are doing thier job well it seems.


We've always had bombs going off in London, its part of the way it works, playing the long game with the IRA really means people are used to this stuff, routes will simply be re-planned in the end.

This being a classic Whodunnit on a large scale, who do we think are the culprits? Theres the classical IRA speculation, there's Al-Queada ( i always feel that they're blamed for everything whereas really theyre probably only to blame for a few of these attacks), or of course we could dive in the depths of an Orwellian Paranoia - it could be the government. Somehow i think not though.

Thoughts?

Good things: If there really can be, silver lining on this'll have to be that this should lead to increased spending on public transport, and there can never be too much of that.

I wait for more news and thank god my boyfreind always takes taxis :D.

WTF? Is this a joke? A silver lining from the death of innocents? Build more public transportation so the terrorists target buses and subways instead of my boyfriend in a taxi! This makes me sick.

If you use a suffiicient number of thermonuclear weapons on that country, and you forcibly imprison people of that belief and country who are currently in your country, yes it would be extremely effective.

Unfortunately, we haven't done that. So our efforts to date are, not surprisingly, ineffective.

Why does this statement make me think that the world has gone completely insane?

Rhetoric. List them, and what they've made.
Halliburton...
quoting wikipedia...
KBR (A divison of haliburton) has contracts in Iraq worth up to $18 billion, including a single "No bid" contract known as "Restore Iraqi Oil" (RIO) which has an estimated worth of $7 billion.

Today KBR employ over 30,000 men and women in Iraq. Halliburton's work in Iraq is diverse and complicated. In addition to troop support, Halliburton also provides air traffic control support; produces 74 million gallons of water a month for consumption, hygiene and laundry; deploys as many as 700 trucks a day to deliver essentials to American forces; and provides firefighter and crash-rescue services, as well as working to restore Iraqi oil infrastructure.

They are expected to have generated more than $13 billion in sales by the time they start to expire in 2006 but most offer low margins - less than 2% on average in 2003 and just 1.4% this year for the logistics work.

Halliburton is the only company mentioned by terrorist Osama bin Laden in an April 2004 tape where he claims that "this is a war [in Iraq] that is benefiting major companies with billions of dollars."

An audit of KBR by the Pentagon’s Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) found $108 million in "questioned costs" and, as of mid-March 2005, said they still had "major" unresolved issues with Halliburton.

Allegations of fraud by Halliburton, specifically with regard to its operations Iraq, have persisted since before the Iraq War. The associations between U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney and Halliburton, had led many to speculate with regard to improprieties and profiteering from the war.

On June 27, 2005, the Democratic Party held a public committee, aired on C-SPAN 3, at which former civilian employees based in or administering operations in Iraq, testified to specific instances of waste, fraud, and other abuses and irregularities by Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellogg,_Brown_and_Root (KBR).

An audit of KBR by the Pentagon’s Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) found $108 million in "questioned costs" and, as of mid-March 2005, said they still had "major" unresolved issues with Halliburton.


(...)after the 2003 war in Iraq, the Halliburton company, previously headed by then vice-president Dick Cheney, was issued a $2 billion no-bid contract for fuel distribution.

There are many other companies operating in Iraq or even at home in the USA as you can imagine, that benefit from things such as no bid maneuvers.
Please don't tell me that everything is neatly tied up in this mumbo jumbo mess.

Nope. And you've completely mis-read the point. I responded to a point raised that we should chase these terrorists down and arrest them. That's simply not going to happen. What do you think, that we can walk up in blue uniforms and some "come along with us, Mr Bin Laden"?

Sheesh.

ok fair point but as decades of gaining enemys has taught us, the only solution to the problem is working gently alongside the nation in question.

BBC say (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4659933.stm)

well this is wot happened, i think

From the BBC:
There were three explosions on the Underground - which police said left 33 dead - and one on a double-decker bus in which an unknown number died.

To make sure that people don't ever forget that fateful day! To make sure that the people don't get complacent about terrorism. To make sure that the people remember just what we are fighting. We are fighting people that have no regards for the rules of war. THey will fight to the end. We should never forget that.

Will people remember the reason the terrorists feel they have to be terrorists do you think? Has anyone even bothered thinking about why people BECOME terrorists?? perhaps before we start wars with the terrorists, we should ask them why they are doing it.... ANYONE EVEN BOTHERED TO THINK ABOUT IT???

27 confirmed fatalities, and more un-confirmed btw (from the Met on the BBC)

33 According to the news conference.

Septemeber 11th 1978. Long live Allende!
1973. !!??

This being a classic Whodunnit on a large scale, who do we think are the culprits? Theres the classical IRA speculation, there's Al-Queada ( i always feel that they're blamed for everything whereas really theyre probably only to blame for a few of these attacks), or of course we could dive in the depths of an Orwellian Paranoia - it could be the government. Somehow i think not though.

Thoughts?

This seems most likely to be Al Quaeda related. It is not the IRA style to use simultaneous and highly ineffective bombs. If it were the IRA I would have bet that the casualty figures would either have been zero dead or much higher.

Why does this statement make me think that the world has gone completely insane?
Because for some, it really has. That is a very disturbing comment. Let's indiscriminately nuke everyone, kill all those who have beliefs differing from ours, and THEN we'll be safe. :(

LONDON (AP) London transport officials say limited London subway and bus service is expected to resume Thursday night

I think they'll get trains and buses running again quickly since they want people out of London in case there are more unexploded bombs. I think that's pretty unlikely though.

Will people remember the reason the terrorists feel they have to be terrorists do you think? Has anyone even bothered thinking about why people BECOME terrorists?? perhaps before we start wars with the terrorists, we should ask them why they are doing it.... ANYONE EVEN BOTHERED TO THINK ABOUT IT???
Give up. They've convinced themselves they can't understand, and that these people would do these things regardless. To a certain point it's true...but it's a way of keeping the blinders on. It's like saying, "Who can understand why the Viet Cong are killing our troops? It's unfathomable...so let's just kill them all in return." :(

ok fair point but as decades of gaining enemys has taught us, the only solution to the problem is working gently alongside the nation in question.

Thanks.
Gotta disagree with you a bit on that point. Sometimes, you just can't work with the other side. Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Pinochet's Argentina, Libya until recently... and none of those were won by diplomacy.

These folks want us all dead and our way of life destroyed. They HATE the idea of being tolerant and liberal. Which is why I dread them so.

The British reaction to this will be based on their culture and their much more extensive experience of being the focus of terrorism. Trust me. They can be brutal bastards too...but they don't flaunt it as much.


Exactly. There's a GDed good reason why the primary US CT forces (Delta and others) were built on the same model as the SAS, and not the other way around. And we really don't have the culture experience and temperment at the moment for the sorts of things the Brits have done.

(The same may be said of Israel. Although it is notable which has had better success dealing w/ terrorists.)

I didn't trot it out though I was responding to a post that hunting down terrorists and arresting them is the plan of the past.
For YOU. For YOUR country. Why must you continue assuming YOURS is the best way to handle terrorism?

What an incredible insight. I'm sure that's all that needs to be said. :rolleyes:

That is the stated goal of al-Qaeda. The destruction of Western Civilization and its replacement by the restoration of the Caliphate.

There aren't any other primary goals.

How much more insight do you need?

And the Brits have for centuries. Point being?

That not all of us have the luxury of living in a small nation like Canada, that doesn't have to step up to non-popular issues like the US has to.

That is the stated goal of al-Qaeda. The destruction of Western Civilization and its replacement by the restoration of the Caliphate.

There aren't any other primary goals.

How much more insight do you need?

Sin is Canadian. Apparently, they need more insight! :D

From the Guardian:

At least 33 people have been killed in a series of explosions that ripped through London's transport system this morning, and more fatalities are expected to be announced later today.

Russell Smith of the London ambulance service confirmed the deaths in a coordinated series of attacks on tube trains and a bus that left many more people wounded and plunged the capital into chaos during rush-hour. The final death toll will be higher, Mr Smith said.

Hundreds of wounded people are being treated in London hospitals.

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523169,00.html)

Give up. They've convinced themselves they can't understand, and that these people would do these things regardless. To a certain point it's true...but it's a way of keeping the blinders on. It's like saying, "Who can understand why the Viet Cong are killing our troops? It's unfathomable...so let's just kill them all in return." :(

Well considering that the middle east has been producing terrorists since well before world war II, I doubt you can lay the blame squarely on anything the US has done.

They've just internationalized since then.

Can we all get back to the topic of the thread: the bombings in London rather than America?

And I heard we're next...... *hides*

Can we all get back to the topic of the thread: the bombings in London rather than America?

Indeed. I have an odd request.

Not only do I know a few people in London, but some people here in the office have relatives in the city, and have been unable to get a phone call through to the UK. Is there any way that people on that side of the pond can call people (without violating NS TOS) and relay messages?

Perhaps because of some of the remarks being made by my fellow Americans?
It's not about US. It's about the UK.

It's about ALL of us!! American, Briton, Canadian, Australian, Russian, Italian, Spainard et al...

Suppose the Allies pulled everything out of the Middle East. There's no way that radical Islam/terrorism would suddenly stop. :(

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

I remember back in 9/11 days it took you a few months to organize a "Blame-America-In-Place-Of-The-Murderers". Nowadays it only takes hours for the New-Left to act like the smarmy, sniping fifth-column gits we always knew they were.

I guess what happened in 2001 was just good PR practice to support the next wave of suicide fascists. Kudos to managing to use as a podium for bashing the Great Satan the victims of three seperate terrorist attacks in one post.

...The bodies aren't even cold yet, you disgusting ingrate.

Cut the flaming NOW.

That is the stated goal of al-Qaeda. The destruction of Western Civilization and its replacement by the restoration of the Caliphate.

There aren't any other primary goals.

How much more insight do you need?
Do you honestly believe that Al-Qaeda is the only terrorist network out there? Or that people with goals of their own aren't joining Al-Qaeda just to get the manpower and logistics to further their own gains? If you underestimate them so much, you are going to have problems. It is simply not possible that all these terrorists are backwards, religiously fanatic psychos...there are some very astute political minds involved in this too, and it is dangerous to forget that. You are talking about the pawns...do you REALLY think the hands controlling them are blinded by dogma to the exclusion of all else? As with all movements based on 'religion', those in the know are rarely as 'faithful' as the hordes they send to martyr themselves in the blood of innocents. Religion is a convenient way to merge divergent populations of people who would normally hate one another.

And I heard we're next...... *hides*

The scary thing is anyone could be. However, I don't think they'll do anything for quite awhile.

My condolences go out to the families of those who have died today, to the injured, and to all of Britain.


Seconded.

Indeed. I have an odd request.

Not only do I know a few people in London, but some people here in the office have relatives in the city, and have been unable to get a phone call through to the UK. Is there any way that people on that side of the pond can call people (without violating NS TOS) and relay messages?

Do you know anyone outside of London? I spoke to relatives in the North East this morning, the landlines to there are fine.

Why does this statement make me think that the world has gone completely insane?

Because Whispering Legs is completely insane, and has just said he has as little regard for life as terrorists have.

To come into this thread, when people are expressing their condoleances and sympathy to the families of the victims and the people of London, and to advocate the mass slaughter of innocents as he has just done is beyond sickening.

Quite nice of the Police Chief type person (don't know his official title) to answer the Islamic Terrorism question with a response of, basically, Islam and Terrorism are not ideas that should be placed together. Even going so far as to say anyone who claims to be Muslim and a terrorist is sadly mistaken.

Kudos.

Now ... when will Americans figure that out?

What baiting? I've been in this thread for nearly four hours.

The vast majority are saying "We are going to take our time before we draw any conclusions", it is NOT equivalent to "The US is too hasty and caused this."

I'll also note there are non-Americans who told anti-Bush/Americans to take it elsewhere.

So, peace.

Ive been in this forum since page 5 and theres been no "Brits baiting" as I think we've got more important things to discuss in here other than to "Bait US" Ok? :headbang:

Next? What country are you in?
Holland

If you're going to use examples, at least get them right. Pinochet was a Chilean dictator...and he was ousted by referendum. And the US was a great supporter of him...and with the Argentine dictatorships...so, huh?

Mea culpa. Sorry about that. I meant the Falklands only, of course.

Sin is Canadian. Apparently, they need more insight! :D
As a Canadian, I find that comment a needlessly broad generalisation.

With regard to the bombings in London, the British authorities have responded quickly to a very chaotic situation. It's truly horrible to read what has been done in such a beautiful city.

Do you honestly believe that Al-Qaeda is the only terrorist network out there? Or that people with goals of their own aren't joining Al-Qaeda just to get the manpower and logistics to further their own gains? If you underestimate them so much, you are going to have problems. It is simply not possible that all these terrorists are backwards, religiously fanatic psychos...there are some very astute political minds involved in this too, and it is dangerous to forget that. You are talking about the pawns...do you REALLY think the hands controlling them are blinded by dogma to the exclusion of all else? As with all movements based on 'religion', those in the know are rarely as 'faithful' as the hordes they send to martyr themselves in the blood of innocents. Religion is a convenient way to merge divergent populations of people who would normally hate one another.


I see people who stand to gain in power and money cleverly manipulating the zealots to their own ends. People who will never risk their own bodily harm inciting the hate of the hate blinded fanatics. Sending ignorant youths to their death in the name of Islam.

It's about ALL of us!! American, Briton, Canadian, Australian, Russian, Italian, Spainard et al...

Suppose the Allies pulled everything out of the Middle East. There's no way that radical Islam/terrorism would suddenly stop. :(

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

I never suggested the Allies should pull out. That would create a vacuum that would make things far worse than they are now.

I believe we should let the UK mourn its losses without gloating that this is what they get for siding with the US, and without comparing the two tragedies in the first hours of its happening.

How did any Americans here feel when they were told, directly after 9/11 "So what, it's happened here for decades" or "you deserved it" or my favorite, "Get over it, it's only 3000 people."

For the love of decency, save the parades for another day.

Honestly. Let's keep our own political point-scoring off-thread, or to ourselves for some minimum of time. Sound fair? All of us, full spectrum. Stop with the backbiting.

I second that. There will have to be a lot of thinking and discussing... later. Out of sheer decency, this should be a time for sympathy and mourning.

I find it very sad that anyone should see this as a points scoring opportunity or be arguing points of semantics and who's foreign policy does/did what to who and how well and so on and on and on. Most days it makes me roll my eyes but today please stop it, there is plenty of time for that another day. People have been killed.

Well considering that the middle east has been producing terrorists since well before world war II, I doubt you can lay the blame squarely on anything the US has done.

They've just internationalized since then.
Did I ANYWHERE IN THAT QUOTE lay the blame on the US or its actions for terrorism? Christ...you people see American-bashing behind every corner, don't you? I was saying...when you BLIND yourself to the fact that terrorism is not cut and dried...that there are many political motivations and reason for what they do...that it is NOT about indiscriminate slaughter for the sake of slaughter, but rather targets chosen with care...THEN you can start to figure out what they are up to, and perhaps intercept their plans and deal with terrorism in a coherent way. Instead, people seem content to be horrified, react in ways that are not particularly effective, and ignore that there may be better ways of dealing with the situation...like learning more about the enemy than two-dimensional 'portrait of a terrorist'.

Perhaps it might also be a good idea to remember that not all terrorists come from the Middle East? That many other terrorist groups are targeting innocents for reasons OTHER than those put forth by Al-Quaeda?

And you just lost yours. You've been dealing with the IRA who only want Northern Ireland Independence. Now your dealing with extremists who just want to destroy the Western World.

ENOUGH. Corneliu, Sinuhue - STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS. This is neither the TIME nor the PLACE for grand-standing.

For fill-in-the-blank's sakes, people!! It's not about winning an EFFING ARGUMENT, ALREADY!

Britain will do two things (based on the way they have reacted to IRA attacks), they will negotiate with those they can, and quitely (and bloodily) take out the people who directly organised it. You won't see it on the news, you won't hear about arrests, althogh there may be some smoke and mirros about trials, but the people on both sides who need to know will know. There will be memorials and the victims families will call for justice, but bodies will already be in ditches and forgotten.
Yup. I think it's kind of funny that anyone would think the Brits are not going to react with extreme prejudice. They're quite good at it. WL seems to have some good insight into how they work too.

May I remind those of you determined to argue over the Iraq war, that this is a thread about a terrorist attack on my country. Could we please have some decorum?

Britain will do two things (based on the way they have reacted to IRA attacks), they will negotiate with those they can, and quitely (and bloodily) take out the people who directly organised it. You won't see it on the news, you won't hear about arrests, althogh there may be some smoke and mirros about trials, but the people on both sides who need to know will know. There will be memorials and the victims families will call for justice, but bodies will already be in ditches and forgotten.

I'd like to think so, in fact I HOPE so, its what we USED to do.... Though is Britain still like that and simply HIDING underneath a facade of being a spineless, Politically correct obsessed, jellyfish?

Once again, I hope so......

Political correctness and the rules not to flame made me not to issue what I had to say about the filth that did this.

I'm an American who lives in the Netherlands and I find it really disturbing how nothing can stop this. First New York, Istanbul, Madrid and now London. It's getting awfully close. London is littered with cameras, high tech security and prevention systems and that doesn't stop these lunatics. If Islamic people in the Middle-East are truly as anti-terrorist as their "governments" claim to be, then they should go out on the streets or do something else to let the world know that they denounce terrorism and reject the radical leaders who lift themselves to the level of pseudo-prophet, predicting the downfall of the western world.

ENOUGH. Corneliu, Sinuhue - STOP TRYING TO SCORE POINTS. This is neither the TIME nor the PLACE for grand-standing.

For fill-in-the-blank's sakes, people!! It's not about winning an EFFING ARGUMENT, ALREADY!

I think that it would be best if everyone stepped away from their keyboard for a few hours, went down to the local establishment for food and beverage, and raised a glass or two for the fallen in Britain.

We can argue tomorrow.

Yup. I think it's kind of funny that anyone would think the Brits are not going to react with extreme prejudice. They're quite good at it. WL seems to have some good insight into how they work too.

Excuse me?

I never suggested the Allies should pull out. That would create a vacuum that would make things far worse than they are now.

I believe we should let the UK mourn its losses without gloating that this is what they get for siding with the US, and without comparing the two tragedies in the first hours of its happening.

How did any Americans here feel when they were told, directly after 9/11 "So what, it's happened here for decades" or "you deserved it" or my favorite, "Get over it, it's only 3000 people."

For the love of decency, save the parades for another day.

Ah! I didn't get that when I read your prior post. Thanks for the clarification.

What an incredible insight. I'm sure that's all that needs to be said. :rolleyes:I was just answering a question in the simplest way possible that would allow me to get back to my work.
To get rid of a supporter of terrorism.
Then why only Iraq?

My friend, if I knew that, I'd not only be elected into the Senate, I'd be raking in the dough on the book tour.
Humor is always the shortest distance between two people. :D

Excuse me?

Carops, what impressed me this morning watching the Sky News interviews with survivors, was the relative detachment that some had - one guy was holding a cloth to his bleeding head, and chatting away.

It wasn't the "stiff upper lip". But it was a sort of "roll with the punches" kind of attitude.

Will people remember the reason the terrorists feel they have to be terrorists do you think? Has anyone even bothered thinking about why people BECOME terrorists?? perhaps before we start wars with the terrorists, we should ask them why they are doing it.... ANYONE EVEN BOTHERED TO THINK ABOUT IT???

Thats right, Lets ask the terrorists why they kill innocent people. Lets find out why they believe it is ok to kill thousands of civilians at a time.

Can you possibly justify their actions?

If everyone I knew were killed by a foreign power, I would never attack civilians. I may go after military targets. I might even strap a bomd to myself and blow myself up in the middle of a military instalation. But never would I kill women and children.

I would give some respect to the terrorists if they were attacking the militaries or governments of the countries that they have problems with. But no, they attack civilians so that they can get press coverage, and strike fear into the world.

I have no sympathy for these terrorists, for that is what they are terrorists. I do not wish to conversewith or understand them. They want to create a world that lives in fear, kill civilians and terrorize the world in order toget what they want.

I appologize if I offend anyone with my view (or my grammar/spelling).

Please keep in mind that things drift after 40 pages (when I joined this thread).



I am keeping it in mind. I was trying to correct for drift, Mark. Thanks for acknowledging. Please note my intention was not to single any one particular poster out.

Oh believe me, if this turns out to be "Islamic" terrorists, as a Muslim (American or otherwise), I *will* be directly affected.

Carops, what impressed me this morning watching the Sky News interviews with survivors, was the relative detachment that some had - one guy was holding a cloth to his bleeding head, and chatting away.

It wasn't the "stiff upper lip". But it was a sort of "roll with the punches" kind of attitude.

Well, we've had this sort of thing for years. And then there was the blitz, although im not that old. I suppose we just get on with things. If we don't, it lets them think they've won.

May I remind those of you determined to argue over the Iraq war, that this is a thread about a terrorist attack on my country. Could we please have some decorum?


Yes. Please know that although some of us get side tracked, most of us are still very concerned and sympathetic for you and your country and sincerely hope that the attacks are done.

First off, you are twisting WL's words. Whatever.
Second off, if you believe what you just typed, you do not know Al Qaeda. They are brilliant but they are still blinded by extremist religious dogma.
Blinded? I doubt it. Made more hateful by? Able to count on more support because of? Assuredly. Blinded suggests that they can not see outside of their religious dogma to consider the political repercussions of their actions. This is clearly false. They've got people scared, they're shaking up the Islamic world and uniting against a 'common enemy' that they have managed to mostly create in carictature and who have unfortunately (and get this, I don't just mean the US, you following?) played into their hands somewhat and allowed more anti-Western sentiment to do their recruiting for them. Religion IS political. They can not hope to hold things together with religion alone...even if they destroyed the "Western Infidels" they would have to deal somehow with the dissenters within their ranks. Now how are they going to do that? What deals are being made with the Chechnyans? The Uzbeks? The Indonesians? The Saudis? The Palestinians? You can bet that there is some serious political movement in the background that has religious goals only as a thin veneer over a grab for more temporal power.

WL seems to think all you need to know about them is their religious goals. I say, no...that is not going to help you completely understand what is going on. I'm not twisting his words, I'm disagreeing with them.

I think that it would be best if everyone stepped away from their keyboard for a few hours, went down to the local establishment for food and beverage, and raised a glass or two for the fallen in Britain.

We can argue tomorrow.

Posting from the local as we "speak".

Here's to the fallen.
:( :( :(

I think that it would be best if everyone stepped away from their keyboard for a few hours, went down to the local establishment for food and beverage, and raised a glass or two for the fallen in Britain.

We can argue tomorrow.


I'll raise a glass to that, Thankyou for being delecatly diplomatic WL. :fluffle:

Right. Here's the deal.

1. Post civilly. I've been cutting people slack because it is an emotional topic, but I am starting to lose patience. The backbiting on both sides WILL stop. Start yet another topic on the causes of terrorism and have at it, but NOT HERE.

2. Post on topic. This thread is about the Bombings in London, latest news reports, and expressions of sympathy toward those who lost life, limb, loved ones, and feeling secure in their person. It is not about Iraq, Bush, Halliburton, or the World Trade Center.

I think that it would be best if everyone stepped away from their keyboard for a few hours, went down to the local establishment for food and beverage, and raised a glass or two for the fallen in Britain.

We can argue tomorrow.


That is some insight I can truly agree with...

Sky News is reporting 45 Dead, 1000 injured, 150 seriously.

The US rail system (trains & subways) is now on Orange Alert.

PS to Dobbs: :cool:

http://www.mikelynaugh.com/SupportTheTroops/Thumbs/tn_IMG_3567.jpg

we have the right to wander around aimlessly in a car enjoying a cold beverage and air conditioning listening to whatever tripe is tuned into our radios. We must be evil.
HAH!!!

the SAS needs to step in and do a smack down and protect the right to public transit safely.

Yes. Please know that although some of us get side tracked, most of us are still very concerned and sympathetic for you and your country and sincerely hope that the attacks are done.

No, its quite allright. I just thought I'd try and steer it back towards the issue in hand.

4 bombs in london kill over 40 peopel and injure almost 300

bbc london

I see people who stand to gain in power and money cleverly manipulating the zealots to their own ends. People who will never risk their own bodily harm inciting the hate of the hate blinded fanatics. Sending ignorant youths to their death in the name of Islam.
Exactly. Which has been the way to wage war for thousands upon thousands of years. The grunts, the bodies on the front line, are told what they need to hear, but they are NOT privy to the inner workings of the command. Islam is a tool. It may be a true faith to those pulling the strings, but you can bet they don't see it QUITE the way the suicide-bombers do...else you'd see more of the 'higher ups' sacrificing themselves for glory.

Oh believe me, if this turns out to be "Islamic" terrorists, as a Muslim (American or otherwise), I *will* be directly affected.

A strange combination of, "did you ever get the feeling you were being watched?" along with, "there's a anal cavity search going on so deep that I can taste rubber glove."

My sympathies to the lost lives in the incidents today. Thank God my brother was on a business trip in Italy. He relies on public transportation in London.

An observation I made though is that terrorists make their attacks more efficient (if this was a planted bomb) when they don't suicide bomb.

And you just lost yours. You've been dealing with the IRA who only want Northern Ireland Independence. Now your dealing with extremists who just want to destroy the Western World.
Get a history book. The IRA are FAR from the only group to target the Brits over the past couple of centuries. Wow.

4 bombs in london kill over 40 peopel and injure almost 300 SERIOUSLY up to 1000 not seriously injured

bbc london a

Posting from the local as we "speak".

Here's to the fallen.
:( :( :(

To the fallen
:( :( :(

Here's some information for Americans who need to contact relatives and friends who are in London now:

The Bureau of Consular Affairs has set up a call center for inquiries on US citizens in London who may have been affected by the blasts. The call center number is 1-888-407-4747.

I've had a few people in the office here unable to get through to the UK. Not sure if anyone else on the forum needs to contact anyone, but there's the number.

Muhammad's ass-crack. Please don't blaspheme. :D

It seems so. Okay, here you go:

1) I didn't say the US was a target for decades, that was someone else. Please don't confuse me with other people. Sorry about that.

2) My point was that you've consistantly railed against the US and UK's international policy, for as long as I've see you post on NS. Certainly the past year. Have you EVER seen me blame terrorism on the US or the UK? I may disagree with the foreign policy of these nations, but that is NOT the same as 'bashing'.

And the rest I'm going to ignore. Sorry Dobbs...

Sorry, but people in my country are dead. A lot of you seem to be arguing about Iraq. Why must this turn into a point-scoring session? Why can't we just be sympathetic with those who have lost their lives, and not look for motivations/which group did it/why they did it, when no group has been confirmed?

Please just stop arguing and THINK.

Right. Here's the deal.

1. Post civilly. I've been cutting people slack because it is an emotional topic, but I am starting to lose patience. The backbiting on both sides WILL stop. Start yet another topic on the causes of terrorism and have at it, but NOT HERE.

2. Post on topic. This thread is about the Bombings in London, latest news reports, and expressions of sympathy toward those who lost life, limb, loved ones, and feeling secure in their person. It is not about Iraq, Bush, Halliburton, or the World Trade Center.
Thank you for that.

Thats right, Lets ask the terrorists why they kill innocent people. Lets find out why they believe it is ok to kill thousands of civilians at a time.

Can you possibly justify their actions?

If everyone I knew were killed by a foreign power, I would never attack civilians. I may go after military targets. I might even strap a bomd to myself and blow myself up in the middle of a military instalation. But never would I kill women and children.

I would give some respect to the terrorists if they were attacking the militaries or governments of the countries that they have problems with. But no, they attack civilians so that they can get press coverage, and strike fear into the world.

I have no sympathy for these terrorists, for that is what they are terrorists. I do not wish to conversewith or understand them. They want to create a world that lives in fear, kill civilians and terrorize the world in order toget what they want.

I appologize if I offend anyone with my view (or my grammar/spelling).

The problem is last time we went to war with terrorists thousands upon thousands of innocent people - I give no respect to terrorists just as i give no respect to millitary personell. THEY ALL KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE!! I just say find out why they become terrorists and try to prevent others becoming terrorists. Many become terrorsists because their countries have been bombed by other countries because those countries were bombed by terrorists....anyone else thinking NEVER ENDING BLOODY CIRCLE ?????

I would like to express my condolences to the families of the victims and my sympathy with the people of the United Kingdom. The Muscovites have had terrorist outrages in our city, and we know what it is and how do you feel now. I remember the terrible September of 1999, when blocks of flats were blowing up in Moscow...

May your great country, 'this scepter'd isle', come through this with honour and dignity, like Britain has always done.

A strange combination of, "did you ever get the feeling you were being watched?" along with, "there's a anal cavity search going on so deep that I can taste rubber glove."

Something like that, yes. *shudder*

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that one unknown and unheard of group has laid claim to the incident. The British authorities have publicly stated that they have received no claims from the perps and are not assuming anything Islamic.

I know we're the flavour of the decade, but let's please stop assuming that this "Secret Al-Qaeda Jihad of Europe" is being honest. That message could have been posted by some 12 year old American kid with a sick sense of humor.

We must remember our lessons about taking internet forum posts too seriously.

I think that it would be best if everyone stepped away from their keyboard for a few hours, went down to the local establishment for food and beverage, and raised a glass or two for the fallen in Britain.

We can argue tomorrow.
Agreed. I'm gone.

This is truly, truly horrible, and I really can't offer anything other than the assurance that people all over the world are offering their sympathy for what has happened in London.

Posts pointing fingers at allied nations while doctors still battle with fate for the lives of critically injured makes me want to leave the NS community. The only grandstanding that should take place is against the MUSLIM EXTREMIST who perpetrated mass murder against working class Londoners.

My family has and will continue to pray that God grants the English strength in this time of crisis, for the wounded and families of those slain by Islamic Jihadists and to grant the people of London swift justice for what has happened.

london was so happy yesterday with london 2012 BUT NOW !!!!!!!

God help us!!!

Sorry, but people in my country are dead. A lot of you seem to be arguing about Iraq. Why must this turn into a point-scoring session? Why can't we just be sympathetic with those who have lost their lives, and not look for motivations/which group did it/why they did it, when no group has been confirmed?

Please just stop arguing and THINK.

Exactly. This is not an instrument for venting your own frustration about whatever war-related issue you are annoyed about. This is not a thread for the various ends of the American political spectrum to attack each other. Would you please pay attention to us and stop it, because I personally find it rather insulting.

http://www.piccolopress.co.uk/usa-engraved/Desktop-Images/25.jpg

You are in our thoughts, Britan.

For those from the UK: May you be well and safe, and may this be a single incident.

For certain posters here: decorum, please.

ok, I never said they didn't know what they were doing. But that despite their cleverness, they are still blinded by hate. Hate which is their ultimate weakness.
We agree on this. Let it not also become ours.

The Bureau of Consular Affairs has set up a call center for inquiries on US citizens in London who may have been affected by the blasts. The call center number is 1-888-407-4747.


Thank you Legs for providing something useful on this thread. And damn you NSers who continue your pissing contest unabated. There's people from both the Left and the Right who are currently in a state of free-fall as far as my estimation of them is concerned.

Why not try to be constructive on an occasion like this? Any 'points' you think you're scoring are completely undermined by your appalling opportunism. To continue to behave this way I think displays a certain level of smug arrogance that I find extraordinarily distasteful at this juncture.

I'm quite close to putting a number of you on my 'ignore list' at the moment.

http://www.piccolopress.co.uk/usa-engraved/Desktop-Images/25.jpg

You are in our thoughts, Britan.

For those from the UK: May you be well and safe, and may this be a single incident.

I agree whole heartedly.

Thank you Legs for providing something useful on this thread.

The same info has been stickied at the top of the General forum. Thanks again.

I know we're the flavour of the decade, but let's please stop assuming that this "Secret Al-Qaeda Jihad of Europe" is being honest. That message could have been posted by some 12 year old American kid with a sick sense of humor.

We must remember our lessons about taking internet forum posts too seriously.

agreed, anyone can post on that site and has been copy & pasted to several sites the only proof people have is that it was in arabic so people make the assumption that its genuine and that its islamic

Something like that, yes. *shudder*

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that one unknown and unheard of group has laid claim to the incident. The British authorities have publicly stated that they have received no claims from the perps and are not assuming anything Islamic.

I know we're the flavour of the decade, but let's please stop assuming that this "Secret Al-Qaeda Jihad of Europe" is being honest. That message could have been posted by some 12 year old American kid with a sick sense of humor.

We must remember our lessons about taking internet forum posts too seriously.
According to CNN the group is called "The Secret Organization group al Qaeda Organization in Europe". It's gotta be some dumb kid to come up with a name like that.

From the Guardian:
1545 In the press conference, we learn a little more about the initial confusion that gripped the city earlier today. Tube boss Tim O'Toole says the sudden succession of blasts caused the earlier "power surge" rumours - the tube control room thought that was the only thing that could cause such a co-ordinated set of failures across the network. In fact, the tube's power supply is intact - they could run a full service now, although that's not likely to happen for some time yet. He also says he's enormously proud of his staff, who "did a difficult job and did it well".

1538 Still at the press conference. London Underground's Tim O'Toole confirms "the system is now clear", which means everyone's out. The train under King's Cross took the longest time to clear - as Londoners know, it's the deepest and most claustrophobic of the lines affected today.

1531 The press conference finally opens. First, the Police casualty bureau now open: 0870 1566344. Then we get a timeline of events this morning:

0851: First incident between Moorgate and Liverpool St. An explosion hits the train 100 yards from Liverpool St, in the tunnel. There are seven fatalities.

0856: The second blast happens on a tube train between King’s Cross and Russell Square. 21 are confirmed dead.

0917: A third blast, this one at Edgware Road. It was powerful enough to blow a hole into another train, with three trains in all involved. Five dead.

0947: The fourth blast, this time on a bus in Tavistock Place. There are no numbers on fatalities from this attack.

There was no warning, and no claims of responsibility yet.

DAC Brian Paddick: "This was clearly a callous attack on purely innocent members of public clearly designed to kill and injure members of the public."

The only grandstanding that should take place is against the MUSLIM EXTREMIST who perpetrated mass murder against working class Londoners.


Stop calling them Muslim.

1] Anyone who would do such a thing is *not* Muslim. Even the British authorities said that exact same thing. Did you not watch the press conference?

2] The investigation is not over and, at this point, nobody knows who has commited this act. Take a lesson from Oklahoma City. Everyone jumped on the "Muslim Terrorist" bandwagon instantly but that turned out to be a "Christian Terrorist".

I know we're the flavour of the decade, but let's please stop assuming that this "Secret Al-Qaeda Jihad of Europe" is being honest. That message could have been posted by some 12 year old American kid with a sick sense of humor.
What was the message?

What was the message?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/07/explosions.claim/index.html

Ok, I'm off home, where I'm going to telephone my relatives in London to see if they're alright.

To all who's lives have been directly affected, my most heartfelt regards.

What was the message?

Somewhere back in the thread, hundreds of messages ago (heh), someone provided some links to news reports of a group claiming responsibility. Since then, it's been assumed to be fact.

Something like that, yes. *shudder*

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that one unknown and unheard of group has laid claim to the incident. The British authorities have publicly stated that they have received no claims from the perps and are not assuming anything Islamic.

I know we're the flavour of the decade, but let's please stop assuming that this "Secret Al-Qaeda Jihad of Europe" is being honest. That message could have been posted by some 12 year old American kid with a sick sense of humor.

We must remember our lessons about taking internet forum posts too seriously.

However, the use of a clappy vocabulary like "Zionist Crusaders" etc. prettymuch sounds like Al Qaeda, IMHO.

(Btw, I don't think they are aware that term is an oxymoron...)

Let's nevermind the whos and the whys right now. We can worry about scoring points and blaming the Iraq War another day.

I say only two things.

First; thank you from the bottom of my heart for the support those NSers (And indeed people who aren't on NS but who have similar sentiments) around the world give Britain. We've come through worse, and we'll go through worse in the future, but that does not for one second reduce the tragedy, and neither does it diminish the appreciation of support.

Second; Our thoughts and prayers, and whatever it is we do along those lines, are surely best with grieving and worried Londoners at this time, and all those around the country and indeed world who may have lost someone. I believe Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, summed it up best.

I want to say one thing: This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty or the powerful, it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers, it was aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners,

The unverified claim, made on the Al-Qal'ah - Fortress - internet site, was posted by a group calling themselves the Secret Organisation Group of Al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organisation in Europe.



Other stories:




City rocked by multiple blasts

Terror attacks rock London

Capital hit by terror strike

Clarke confirms at least 4 blasts

PM condemns barbaric terror attacks

City hit by 6 blasts - police chief

Al Qaida claim over blasts

Buses ferry injured to hospital

Olympic team's shock at blasts

Blair and Bush to discuss climate





The message said: "The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London."

It continued: "Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters."

The claims, picked up by BBC Monitoring, claimed that the strikes were revenge for British military "massacres" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Terrorists appeared to warn Denmark and Italy that they will also suffer attacks if they do not withdraw troops from Iraq.

The message went on: "In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

"O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader Government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Elaph, a secular Arabic-language news website, and Der Spiegel magazine in Berlin, both reported that a group calling itself The Secret Organisation of al Qaida in Europe had posted a claim of responsibility for the series of blasts, saying they were in retaliation for Britain's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The statement, which also threatened attacks in Italy and Denmark, was published on a website popular with Islamic militants, according to the two sources which both published the text on their websites.

"

However, the use of a clappy vocabulary like "Zionist Crusaders" etc. prettymuch sounds like Al Qaeda, IMHO.

(Btw, I don't think they are aware that term is an oxymoron...)
It's a rough translation from Arabic, I don't think it was intended to come out like that but something along those lines.

However, the use of a clappy vocabulary like "Zionist Crusaders" etc. prettymuch sounds like Al Qaeda, IMHO.

(Btw, I don't think they are aware that term is an oxymoron...)

*shrug* Know that old saying "Even the Devil can quote scripture if it serves his purpose"? Anyone who's been watching the internet and reading all the psuedo-fatwahs can mimic them.

It's one of the reasons you can't convict someone for a crime on confession alone. There has to be proof. Anyone can confess to anything, but that doesn't mean they actually did it. Even the name of the supposed group is a little suspect.

If you have relatives in London wh oyou are worried about, the BBC have a helpline. It's UK area code (0044 - don't dial the first '0') 0870 1566 344.

There was no reason for invading Iraq.

I could go on about this but out of respect for those that died today in a terrorist attack in London, I won't.

My condoloences to thost that have lost loved ones and my prayers go out to those same loved ones and for the wounded.

Latest - 33 dead.

Condolences to all those affected.

UK was bound to become a target sooner or later. Fundamentalist muslims are crawling all over the place.

Bradfordstan anyone?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm

The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.
The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.

The group is previously unknown.

The website has previously carried statements purporting to be from al-Qaeda. It is not possible to verify such claims published on the web.

This is the full text of the statement.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.

We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.

We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.

God says: "You who believe: If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."

It's a rough translation from Arabic, I don't think it was intended to come out like that but something along those lines.
Go here:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,364134,00.html

They have the Arabic version as well as a full translation.

LONDON - The three explosions that ripped through London subway trains Thursday killed at least 33 people and an undetermined number were killed in a fourth explosion on a bus, officials said in what Prime Minister Tony Blair described as a "barbaric" terrorist attack.

A U.S. law enforcement official earlier said the death toll from the four blasts was at least 40.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8492258/