NationStates Jolt Archive

Don't confuse artifical intelligence with artificial sentience.

...I should just toss my passion for Hard Sci-Fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekov7423el8ye) out the window, shouldn't I?

No. Suffice to say, some people preemptively IGNORE Darkships for example.

And you can always RP with me in Solar Communes ~100% Hard Science edition... with wars the last thousands of years because FTL is impossible. Although logically interstellar civilizations in a universe without FTL travel would probably only meet themselves after becoming massive galactic powers. Thus any conflict would be similar in scale to the background story of Total Annihilation.

And you can always RP with me in Solar Communes ~100% Hard Science edition... with wars the last thousands of years because FTL is impossible. Although logically interstellar civilizations in a universe without FTL travel would probably only meet themselves after becoming massive galactic powers. Thus any conflict would be similar in scale to the background story of Total Annihilation.I said Hard Science, not Viagra/Diamond Science.

On a side note, Xess, I noticed a comment and thought I might challenge it for sporting sake...

I would disagree with you on that topic. I see FTLi, such as my Star Wars-tech derived Interdictors, as being a vital part of military operations and SOP in any scenario which may prove advantageous to keep an enemy from escaping. Such a scenario being when an enemy is soundly beaten but yet not entirely destroyed, leaving the victor in a position to totally defeat an enemy instead of running the risk of fighting a force later on that may grow to be a future threat. There are many military applications and tactics that involve the ability to keep an enemy from retreating. I'll quote a famous saying made famous by North Vietnamese general Giap during the Vietnam conflict: "we must grab them by the belt."

That's a matter of tactical doctrine and player preference. I personally see no reason to keep a beaten force from retreating, it lets the other player have some extra firepower for later on in the RP.

I've also given some thought to FTLi stopping tactical FTL jumps. I can see why you would want to eliminate that as it would negate a serious advantage your enemy has in mobility. I prefer not to use it as it makes a more difficult battle for myself. I've been told I have pretty wanky ships in the past so I figure it helps even the odds somewhat if an opponent can get the drop on me from time to time. More fun that way too, for me at least.

On a more general note I think it would help if more people remembered that even with all fancy physics breaking stuff in soft sci-fi the regular kind of physics still has to apply as well or else life would be impossible as cellular processes would stop working, planets wouldn't orbit stars and so on.

Take for example Conservation of Momentum, if it didn't apply pretty much all life and pretty much everything else as we know it wouldn't work. Using the examples of shields, you get hit with a laser of energy X, your shield dissipates the EM energy but it can't dissipate the momentum the laser carried because of CoM. That means your shield generator (as the object which actually produces the shield) will have to deal with a force of X/c Newtons; as the momentum carried by light is equal to its energy divided by the speed of light. When you get into the range soft sci-fi energy weapons dwell in this is a substantial amount of force that needs to be braced against. Kinetic weapons would of course transfer much more momentum. This makes even the most supposedly invincible shields vulnerable to failure by brute force attacks as the weakest link is the physical shield generator.

Take for example Conservation of Momentum, if it didn't apply pretty much all life and pretty much everything else as we know it wouldn't work. Using the examples of shields, you get hit with a laser of energy X, your shield dissipates the EM energy but it can't dissipate the momentum the laser carried because of CoM. That means your shield generator (as the object which actually produces the shield) will have to deal with a force of X/c Newtons; as the momentum carried by light is equal to its energy divided by the speed of light. When you get into the range soft sci-fi energy weapons dwell in this is a substantial amount of force that needs to be braced against. Kinetic weapons would of course transfer much more momentum. This makes even the most supposedly invincible shields vulnerable to failure by brute force attacks as the weakest link is the physical shield generator.In short, your bridge should rock like the Enterprise when you're shot with a laser.

In short, your bridge should rock like the Enterprise when you're shot with a laser.

One hell of a laser to carry that much momentum. Admittedly, the firepower some people throw out probably does justify that much momentum on a laser.

On a more general note I think it would help if more people remembered that even with all fancy physics breaking stuff in soft sci-fi the regular kind of physics still has to apply as well or else life would be impossible as cellular processes would stop working, planets wouldn't orbit stars and so on.

Yes. But if you can break physics at all, presumably you could extend that to what you need.

I'm not being clear, so here's an example:

Take your conservation of momentum example. If you already have a drive that takes CoM and rapes it sideways, shouldn't you, in theory at least, have the capability to rape it in other creative ways as well? That is to say, if you can break CoM with a drive field as some supposed "inertialess" drives do, what's stopping you from creating a shield that wouldn't transfer the momentum to the generator?

Yes. But if you can break physics at all, presumably you could extend that to what you need.

I'm not being clear, so here's an example:

Take your conservation of momentum example. If you already have a drive that takes CoM and rapes it sideways, shouldn't you, in theory at least, have the capability to rape it in other creative ways as well? That is to say, if you can break CoM with a drive field as some supposed "inertialess" drives do, what's stopping you from creating a shield that wouldn't transfer the momentum to the generator?

If your shield doesn't interact with the generator your shield will do nothing to protect the ship. The generator produces the shield which means that whatever forces the shield stops the generator has to deal with. Same with reactionless drives, however they generate a force to propel the ship that force still acts on the drive which acts on the drive supports which accelerates the ship.

You can not get around this without rendering your device worthless. You can compensate with whatever you use for anti-G force devices to keep your ship and crew together but that system will be less effective against incoming forces coming at random times and vectors compared to planned acceleration. And of course such a system can overwhelmed with enough force as something being limitless is impossible, both physically and logically.

EDIT: Here (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Shields/Nature.html) is a good run down on shields in sci-fi.

That's a matter of tactical doctrine and player preference. I personally see no reason to keep a beaten force from retreating, it lets the other player have some extra firepower for later on in the RP.

I've also given some thought to FTLi stopping tactical FTL jumps. I can see why you would want to eliminate that as it would negate a serious advantage your enemy has in mobility. I prefer not to use it as it makes a more difficult battle for myself. I've been told I have pretty wanky ships in the past so I figure it helps even the odds somewhat if an opponent can get the drop on me from time to time. More fun that way too, for me at least.

On a more general note I think it would help if more people remembered that even with all fancy physics breaking stuff in soft sci-fi the regular kind of physics still has to apply as well or else life would be impossible as cellular processes would stop working, planets wouldn't orbit stars and so on.

Take for example Conservation of Momentum, if it didn't apply pretty much all life and pretty much everything else as we know it wouldn't work. Using the examples of shields, you get hit with a laser of energy X, your shield dissipates the EM energy but it can't dissipate the momentum the laser carried because of CoM. That means your shield generator (as the object which actually produces the shield) will have to deal with a force of X/c Newtons; as the momentum carried by light is equal to its energy divided by the speed of light. When you get into the range soft sci-fi energy weapons dwell in this is a substantial amount of force that needs to be braced against. Kinetic weapons would of course transfer much more momentum. This makes even the most supposedly invincible shields vulnerable to failure by brute force attacks as the weakest link is the physical shield generator.

I'd have to agree on that point, in fact I was currently trying to explain to someone (who shall remain nameless) that he couldn't just shoot a multi-solar mass singularity from his ship at .6c, the sheer reaction force would cause his ship to hit the speed of light going backwards and being shattered to pieces. He then tried to explain how the mass is stored in an alternate dimension and then 'phased' into existence, which I then tried to explain to him that .6c * few hundred pounds would have to equal v * the few masses of sol, which would mean that his black hole device would literally stop on a dime as soon as it was activated.

Then again, I was also trying to convince to him that a hacker with infinite more intelligence, infinite more computer power, and an infinite amount of time could theoretically hack into his nation and he refused to admit his systems were 'mortal'.

Still, at least it gives you the occasional laugh.

Why are you expecting technology to always be perfectly logical? :P

I agree with Axis. If all technology was logicial then not nearly as much random crap would happen... imagine a FT rp or tv show WITHOUT the use of fuses in consoles... o wait... Star Trek beat us to it :P

Why are you expecting technology to always be perfectly logical? :P

Funny intentions aside and not directed to anyone in particular, this is actually a problem in FT. People don't think things have to be consistent or make sense if you can just say, "Its sci-fi." Such a stance is moronic and completely baseless. I'm not saying you must obey factual science, I certainly don't do that. I am saying that you need to look at what your tech-fluff actually means and the consequences there of and to remember that just because you can break some laws of physics that doesn't mean you can completely ignore things like Conservation of Momentum or Energy. You have to think of the weakest link not the strongest.

A way of looking at it could be, "You can ignore everything you learned in university but hold to the stuff you learned in grade school." Feel free to make energy shields and FTL drives but remember that when you push on something it pushes back and you can't get something from nothing.

Just wait until people invent an improbability drive to throw out the laws of physics as we know it to make what they think is cool the only law of physics.

Boy, it'll be fun to see ships full of vampire werewolf dragon god demihuman hybrids that fart smart bombs!

I personally can't wait for a nation that uses Spiral technology.

Just wait until people invent an improbability drive to throw out the laws of physics as we know it to make what they think is cool the only law of physics.

Boy, it'll be fun to see ships full of vampire werewolf dragon god demihuman hybrids that fart smart bombs!

Nobody ever rendered a FT-specific IGNORE CANNON, as far as I know :(

I would buy one... really.

Nobody ever rendered a FT-specific IGNORE CANNON, as far as I know :(

I would buy one... really.Shall the Engineers' Guild of the Boundless Empire consider that a commission?

FT has never needed an ignore canon, for we have all, always had access to the ultimate weapon.

http://homeofanl.se/images/fluffy_kittenmode.jpg

It's just so many have been so afraid to unleash this beast of carnage. . .

*laughs hysterically*

Hmm... I'm fairly certain that there's a sledgehammer that was made for the express purpose of countering that particular eldritch abomination. The grip is designed specifically to fit the style of wielding favored by unashamed sadists.

Nobody ever rendered a FT-specific IGNORE CANNON, as far as I know :(

I would buy one... really.
I usually pull out the Death Star superlaser firing scenes for FT ignore cannons. Classic and fun.

I personally can't wait for a nation that uses Spiral technology.

I still don't get it, that has to have been one of the MOST cliche and silly animes out there.

And yet I still love it.

Wow, why did nobody tell me there was a Darkship discussion going on? Now I have so many posts to answer, some in horribly unhelpful ways that make me look like a godmoding asshole, just to keep up appearances and reinforce the fact that I'm Neo-freaking-Mekanta.

... It's hard being me... ^_^


Hey Face, don't know if I mentioned it to you, but I found a way to defeat, or at the very least, survive, one of those huge Darkships of Mekanta's. =D

It's good to dream, isn't it? ^_^

(Okay, horribly unhelpful response that makes me look like a godmoding asshole... check.)

Oh? I'm curious. My method is exceedingly simple: Just keep shooting until they die. :p

That's a very good method. ^_^

From two encounters with Mekanta's Darkships i've found that the best way to survive is to neither kill it's occupants or the ships itself, but to kill the thread :D Twice now my forces have been saved from certain destruction thanks to inactivity on someone elses part!

Screw you with a rake. ^_^

... And of course, I wouldn't react that way if it wasn't true... Truely, inactivity is the god killer...


The question of how to face a telekinetic force that has the psychic power to "smash planets into small powder" is nigh impossible

Actually, it's the "rip stars apart" example I gave that you should be more worried about. That sets the bar much higher than the "smash planets into powder" example.


A Darkship also acts as a black hole, since instead of shields it apparently has a gravity negation field around it.

That's not an "instead" - Mekantan warships possess powerful barrier fields that annoy the hell out of them because they can't shoot through them.

By that logic, is seems quite feasible to create an interdictor cruiser (or something like it, most likely well more protected) that, instead of creating a gravity shadow, does the exact opposite, creating a negative gravitational field and thereby forcing a new gravity negation field upon the Darkship and keeping it from using its innate mass to create a "black hole" and destroy its opponents in that fashion.

Nice thinking.

This Holtzman shield would allow one of these special cruisers to remain invulnerable to the rail guns of a Dark Ship, seeing as only slow moving objects can pass through them. (Source: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Shield)

Operating under the assumption that Darkships don't have slow weapons. I stated that they had FTL weapons, I don't recall mentioning a lack of STL. Darkships like playing with their food. ^_^

This would, however, give you one critical, easily exploited advantage that I'll cover further along this TL;DR post.

To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield, and thereby protect the ship from both lasers and rail guns.

Why not under, where it can be protected by the Dune shield? Prevent the big heavy FTL weapons from punching through the SW shield and allowing unfettered fire from shrapnel guns to shred the hull. ^_^



Interesting. Wouldn't it be easier, however, to possess a commodity that Neo-Menkanta would find desirable, yet cannot replicate or seize through force of arms?

The closest thing would be a culture's unique music and artistic talent in their current state, and the Mekantans actually find such things to take on an interesting quality, though not at all the same, when produced under duress by slaves. ^_^


Why is that?
Personally, I like my Battleplates - they're anti-everything. :)

Of course, I only have 3. And 7 Superfortresses. And 32 frigates. And that's about it.

How many Darkships does he have, anyway?

Thirty-six, though I'm a lot more militaristic than you. (And pull some unsavory economic moves (read: wank) that supports said rabid militarism.)


More importantly, what's the ratio between Darkships and potential targets the Darkships need to defend?

Currently? Thirty-six Darkships to about four critical systems that get patrolled. Everything else is expendable. Most of the Darkships are in Citadel, the capital system.


The first is that, you wouldn't even need to match their energy - merely stop it forming a singularity; after all, until it does that, a gravity well is just helping give your kinetics a little extra oomph.

Smart Ctan is SMART. In fact...

(the alternative, that it can merely persist beyond a {rather large} event horizon is perhaps even stranger, and would mean you could theoretically shoot into the black hole and still hit the ship)

This one. The event horizon of a Darkship's gravitational field is actually several meters (about sixteen, on average) off of the hull, and within that space the Darkship will sometimes project its barrier field. I say sometimes, because with a hull like a Darkship's, sometimes they just don't care.

Of course, the simple way to do this is to get on board and set off a suitably large bomb, but that would likely be... challenging; which is a good thing.

It would also give the crew something useful to do. ^_^

I've some other ideas, mind, but they'd require more information on the targets, from Mekatana.

Ask away. ^_^


I myself was rather put off at the idea of the Darkship being its own blackhole and yet not being destroyed outright, which if you put your theory to it, proves more feasible. We'll have to see what Mekanta thinks.

Darkships are the natural predator of the laws of physics. ^_^

Really. In their own universe, everyone is using radiators to get rid of heat, being mindful of their momentum, and generally being good relatively hard science fiction boys and girls. (Metaphysics? FTL? Shielding? Some gravity/spacetime manipulation? Yeah... The rest? Pretty hard.) Mekantans? Pfft. First contact and the horrifying revelation of what they're capable of leads to mass suicides among people imitating the reaction when FTL was first uncovered. (A similar reaction is had when the first Darkship is destroyed.)


Short answer is, gravity doesn't mean much to Darkships, not even their own gravitational fields. Their hulls don't react at all like they should, and one of the more twisted effects is how within a "bubble" of the hull, it will cancel out its own mass.

Say you have a hollow sphere of Darkship Hull matter, about six inches thick and twelve feet in diameter, sitting on the surface of the Earth. Outside that sphere, it is 1g. Inside that sphere, it will either be 2gs, or .25 gs, or anywhere in between, in a Schrodinger's Cat-like situation. Now, make it a sixteen foot long cylinder eight feet wide with the same six inch thick shell and suddenly it's free fall at the center and 1g along all the sides, or vice versa. Make it a six inch thick dish or cup and toward the inside back of the dish you'll encounter the same strange gravitational effects. Yet the whole time, its gravity outside the shell remains constant, and consistent with what it should be... although the mass of what is inside doesn't register the way it should.

Darkships behave in very mindfucky ways. Yes. Mindfucky. That's pretty much the best way to describe it.



It may be possible to destroy a Darkship with a sufficiently powerful AI, no weapons required. I'd need a better overview of how the Darkship works to determine that

Anything you want to know, I have the answers for. ^_^


...I should just toss my passion for Hard Sci-Fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekov7423el8ye) out the window, shouldn't I?

Nah, hard science is fun.



Now then, I had said that the Dune shields would give Thrashia an advantage, aye? This is because of how Darkships think, which is usually the same problem Mekantan commanders have: Darkships are vulnerable to disbelief.

Darkships are very good at measuring the yield of their weapons. If you have a Darkship firing on a small shuttle, it will be careful to use only as much firepower in its attack (and Darkships tend to work on a one shot-one kill mentality when going for the kill) to oblitorate it a certain number of times over.

If that shuttle is still there, however, the Darkship has a problem. It might have known the shuttle had some kind of field that would, say, shunt all the power of the attack into subspace but fry it and render it helpless, or something the Darkship could easily overcome by shifting its fire into another dimension or even simply shooting again, but it doesn't matter. The Darkship will just sit there.

After being shot at and not dying, you will usually have about a three second window where the Darkship will just sit there. It's already figured out a work-around. It has over seventeen million viable firing solutions for each target being entirely recalculated every two nanoseconds. Its weapons are primed and ready to obliterate you. It's watching you closely. Your fleet could be unloading everything they have on it. Doesn't matter. That Darkship is still just going to sit there until those three seconds have passed.


Now, if you use this strategy a lot, the Darkship will quickly catch on, in which case you can REALLY fuck with it. After it's adjusted to your strategy, it will start employing countermeasures. In the shuttle example, it knows that shooting twice will destroy it in (technically) one attack. Darkship sees shuttle. It knows it has the shield up. It fires twice.

The shuttle's crew becomes suicidal and drops the shield before the shots arrive and the shuttle vaporizes upon the first shot. A Darkship is perceptive enough to realize this.

You now have a fifteen second window while the Darkship stares at where the shuttle used to be.


Note that, as stated, all of this applies to the Mekantans aboard that Darkship too.


Now then, any questions?

Now then, any questions?Yes, you mentioned that all systems other than the four are expendable. Are the "expendable" systems valuable enough that you'd be willing to let a species maintain their independence in exchange for the security of said "expendable" systems?

Not that I'll actively pursue such interests, just a precaution in case I get your nastier sort of attention.

Say you have a hollow sphere of Darkship Hull matter, about six inches thick and twelve feet in diameter, sitting on the surface of the Earth. Outside that sphere, it is 1g. Inside that sphere, it will either be 2gs, or .25 gs, or anywhere in between, in a Schrodinger's Cat-like situation. Now, make it a sixteen foot long cylinder eight feet wide with the same six inch thick shell and suddenly it's free fall at the center and 1g along all the sides, or vice versa. Make it a six inch thick dish or cup and toward the inside back of the dish you'll encounter the same strange gravitational effects. Yet the whole time, its gravity outside the shell remains constant, and consistent with what it should be... although the mass of what is inside doesn't register the way it should.

This is no different than any other artificial gravity system that can deal with the high and often random accelerations in soft sci-fi.

Now then, any questions?

So are Darkships some sort of biologic organism?

This is no different than any other artificial gravity system that can deal with the high and often random accelerations in soft sci-fi.That's like saying there's no difference between a bedpan that destroys anything that goes in it and a toilet with motion-tracking lasers inside the bowl. Both destroy the waste, but one of them requires complex technology while the other does it just by existing.

That's like saying there's no difference between a bedpan that destroys anything that goes in it and a toilet with motion-tracking lasers inside the bowl. Both destroy the waste, but one of them requires complex technology while the other does it just by existing.

There is no effective difference between the two, they both eradicate waste which requires a set amount of energy that they both must provide, no free lunch remember. Even though one is some kind of exotic matter that draws the energy from some internal reservoir compared to drawing from an external electrical grid, one is not better than the other.

The idea that the technobabble or "tech level" is more important than results is a major problem in FT.

You know, I think probably the best way to handle these cheesy Darkships is for someone to wave a magic wand and turn it into a road apple.

You know, I think probably the best way to handle these cheesy Darkships is for someone to wave a magic wand and turn it into a road apple.

I've actually been thinking about it. Technically if you could get a weapon that can pass through the singularity without stopping in time, you can just whack it until you crack it's shell, or just enough that the gravity inside of it becomes real and the entire crew goes splat.

That depends on if physics beyond a singularity has such a thing as gravity though. But if it doesn't, if there's enough space in the black hole for two... :D

...It's funny, I think I came up with a way to defeat multiple Darkships that doesn't work if there's only one around. Of course, it depends on a few key details:

1. How capable are Darkships of overcoming jamming, both communications and scanning?
2. If part of the Darkship is being effected by projected effect, will the entire Darkship be effected?
3. Can a Darkship's singularity harm other Darkships?
4. What sort of transdimensional/phase capabilities does a Darkship have?

Yes, you mentioned that all systems other than the four are expendable. Are the "expendable" systems valuable enough that you'd be willing to let a species maintain their independence in exchange for the security of said "expendable" systems?

Not that I'll actively pursue such interests, just a precaution in case I get your nastier sort of attention.

Yes, actually. In fact, most of the slave nations do have a fair degree of independence, but those who agree to work directly with the Hegemony and the Mekantan warlords by maintaining the Hegemony's rule tend to have quite a bit. Granted, given that part of the Hegemony's rule is harvesting citizens of the conquered civilizations, it usually takes an evil, or at the very least amoral, government to go along with such a thing.


So are Darkships some sort of biologic organism?

No, they're alive, but they aren't biological in the sense that most life forms are. Think of them as living, growing mechanical single celled organisms.


That's like saying there's no difference between a bedpan that destroys anything that goes in it and a toilet with motion-tracking lasers inside the bowl. Both destroy the waste, but one of them requires complex technology while the other does it just by existing.

Actually, Xessmithia is right. The end result is the same either way. How it gets there is an important detail, but the purpose and end result is the same. If you blow a ship up with a missile or by causing a localized big crunch, the ship is still gone.


...It's funny, I think I came up with a way to defeat multiple Darkships that doesn't work if there's only one around. Of course, it depends on a few key details:

1. How capable are Darkships of overcoming jamming, both communications and scanning?
2. If part of the Darkship is being effected by projected effect, will the entire Darkship be effected?
3. Can a Darkship's singularity harm other Darkships?
4. What sort of transdimensional/phase capabilities does a Darkship have?

Well, to answer number one, the motto of the Darkships as a whole is "Khiinae'ezat'zjeseth sah Khiinae'zatih'zjeseth sah Khiinae'koraltih'zjeseth" (Omniscience, Omnipotence, Malevolence) and that first part is very well earned. Jamming or other attempts to blind a Darkship would do very, very little to inhibit its operations.

Second one, no, effects tend to end about two feet into the hull.

Third, gravity, regardless of the source, doesn't do much to a Darkship.

And fourth, extremely powerful and precise, but it personally doesn't leave realspace much.

Mekanta, how, precisely does an invincible, unstoppable warship in any way enhance an RP? If anything, I imagine it would only lead to frustration.

While Darkships are not bound by the laws of physics, they are bound by the laws of narrative.

Darkships, and the Mekantans as a whole, are bad guys. Bad guys lose.

The party of feeble apes with sharp sticks and weak magics defeat the ancient, powerful dragon despite setbacks due to his power. The struggling rebellion overcomes the mighty space empire, but might have to crash a battleship into their superweapon to do it. Those teenagers who didn't listen to the warnings about the ancient cursed serial killer end up sealing the bastard again after several of their friends get their throats torn out. The nerdy Japanese schoogirl ends up transforming into the beautiful and powerful Supa~ Maou~ Tenshi~ and defeats the evil monster... unless the evil monster happens to have rape tentacles, in which case... she still ends up beating the evil monster, but gets buggered bloody senseless in the process.


There has been no instance of a Darkship being RPed at full power against another player. Every major Darkship victory has been the setup for an RP, and the most recent point I can think of with a Darkship in direct conflict with a player opponent (damn my horrible posting ethic. ^_^) was in Conservative Morality's intro thread where everything was OOCly polite and being discussed, and plot reasons caused the Darkship to behave in a way that kept it from being a curbstomp once it went from horrible Mekantan diplomacy to pissed off Darkship rising like a demon from the system's star. I really need to finish up the Displaced RP so ICly Operation Darkfall can go along so there's a nice big example of a Darkship in battle.


Question answered?

You know, I think probably the best way to handle these cheesy Darkships is for someone to wave a magic wand and turn it into a road apple.
Indeed, it seems the best way to kill a Darkship is with...LAUGHTER! Well, humor. And us Coredians have a high humor factor (being an anime-style nation).

Devising the cheesiest way to defeat one would do the trick! :D

Indeed, it seems the best way to kill a Darkship is with...LAUGHTER! Well, humor. And us Coredians have a high humor factor (being an anime-style nation).

Devising the cheesiest way to defeat one would do the trick! :D

Damn, and all this time I thought a spot light would have done it :)

I'll see your Jedi-Shinobi-Sayajin people and raise you Touhou in Space.

Bleh. Sayajins. They're just Jedi Shinobi (with a side of Alchemy).

So does that mean you're a class S++++ yokai? :p

I'll see your Jedi-Shinobi-Sayajin people and raise you Touhou in Space.

In that case all you have to do is remove their hats and they're finished.

*glint in his eyes show as he devises a prank of the ages*

Nwehehehehehehe!

Not necessarily (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpw0Cxhn-EA).


Besides, it's that warship covered in sunflowers you have to worry about.


... Or rather, it will be once Jolt acknowledges that Neo-Gensokyo is attached to a valid e-mail addy.

You forget that Red White is already an undead zombie, and thus is not a valid example.

EX Rumia.

Take off the "hat" - I DARE YOU. XD


... No, no, wait, nevermind. Space is very, very dark already...

Not only would I remove her ribbon, but I'd let her eat me, if you know what I mean.

Yes, actually. In fact, most of the slave nations do have a fair degree of independence, but those who agree to work directly with the Hegemony and the Mekantan warlords by maintaining the Hegemony's rule tend to have quite a bit. Granted, given that part of the Hegemony's rule is harvesting citizens of the conquered civilizations, it usually takes an evil, or at the very least amoral, government to go along with such a thing.The citizens are not khazukan, they aren't offering anything that the Hegemony can't beat, and given that the Boundless Empire would be working with the Hegemony in this hypothetical scenario it's unlikely that the victims would have respect for the culture of the Golugani.

I see the relationship being like that between dwarves and elves: We don't like you, and working with you means doing things we don't like, but it'll be doomsday if we don't work with you, so we will... Until we can figure out how to avert doomsday on our own, at which point we're coming for you with weapons out and armor on.

Ahhh... I remember the Darkship coming out from the sun... how... err... mindboggoling

I'm going to start referring to those things as Cthulhu Cubes, just for how crazy they screw up physics.

Most of ESUS will agree with the name, for entirely different reasons. XD


And I can't get Neo-Gensokyo authorized to be on the board. Damn.

You're too soft, Mekanta.

Ooh... I just got an idea for how to make rune magic work in FT: Steal the psychic gestalt from 40K Orkz. It won't be as potent due to low warp presence / medichlorian count / applied phlebtonium in their physiology, but it's enough that the power can be focused on certain symbols, namely runes.

Or is that going too far? It's entirely coincidental that I'm asking this while we're talking about the stuff Menkanta does.

Alright, who's ready to graze capship-grade danmaku?

XD

*Master Spark*

Ooh... I just got an idea for how to make rune magic work in FT: Steal the psychic gestalt from 40K Orkz. It won't be as potent due to low warp presence / medichlorian count / applied phlebtonium in their physiology, but it's enough that the power can be focused on certain symbols, namely runes.

Or is that going too far? It's entirely coincidental that I'm asking this while we're talking about the stuff Menkanta does.
Nah. Go holographic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantRunes) for runes in FT. I'm heading towards that route myself to integrate my alchemy and ninjutsu powers with other powers that I've discovered (thank you, Maho Clan from Skaugra!). I'm going to use Star Ocean as a base to work from.

Master Spark is for wimps. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kofnEdB8Blc&feature=related)

Nah. Go holographic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantRunes) for runes in FT. I'm heading towards that route myself to integrate my alchemy and ninjutsu powers with other powers that I've discovered (thank you, Maho Clan from Skaugra!). I'm going to use Star Ocean as a base to work from.I'm running DWARVES in space, remember? Anything with the word 'instant' attributed is anything but desirable. Besides, you can't work holograms in a forge.

Data Forge :P

I run undead in space. Their ships run with HATRED FOR THE LIVING and the UNHOLY ENERGIES OF THE UNDERWORLD. Some ships work with sheer naked EMOTION of all creatures, which makes them very powerful in densely populated systems.

And you can blame Der Angst for Ermor's FTness.

Hey, yeah! With buttons so big, you need to strike them with hammers so that I think not.

Most of ESUS will agree with the name, for entirely different reasons. XD

Because before the Darkships, Mekanta was known for his tentacle ships.

And tentacle infantry.

And tentacle tanks.

These fiends treated even power-armored super-soldiers like preteen schoolgirls in a hentai movie!

The last three pages make me cry for FT. The F stands for Future not Fantasy god damn it.;)

Because before the Darkships, Mekanta was known for his tentacle ships.

And tentacle infantry.

And tentacle tanks.

These fiends treated even power-armored super-soldiers like preteen schoolgirls in a hentai movie!

This design ethic is still adhered to by the "antibody" units slaved to Darkship consciousnesses and other Mekantan constructs. ^_^


Hey, yeah! With buttons so big, you need to strike them with hammers so that I think not.

Actually, a holographic forge might work. ^_^

I'm heavily influenced by Dwarf Fortress, but making it as impractical as possible screams "DWARF" ^_^


I run undead in space. Their ships run with HATRED FOR THE LIVING and the UNHOLY ENERGIES OF THE UNDERWORLD. Some ships work with sheer naked EMOTION of all creatures, which makes them very powerful in densely populated systems.

And you can blame Der Angst for Ermor's FTness.

You wouldn't happen to be Dominions based, would you?


The last three pages make me cry for FT. The F stands for Future not Fantasy god damn it.;)

We've had Force Wielders running around for how long?

It's not that hard of a gap to bridge. ^_^

You wouldn't happen to be Dominions based, would you?

Yes I would. Played the damn thing since 2001. :p

As for what Xessmithia said, HA, Ermor's been around since Dec 2003 (original Ashen Empire of Ermor). I had to switch names since I gave Ermor to someone else and, well... That someone else promised to give it back but forgot about it. :( :( :(

Actually, a holographic forge might work. ^_^

I'm heavily influenced by Dwarf Fortress, but making it as impractical as possible screams "DWARF" ^_^I'm heavily influenced by Bugman's Brewery and the Anvil of Creation. The latter tells me that practical is better in all instances, the former tells me my way is better because your way can't hold up to a decent brew.

The last three pages make me cry for FT. The F stands for Future not Fantasy god damn it.;)

Nah, it's been Fantasy in Space (cue tropelink here) since the beginning - since the Space Elves showed up, if not sooner.

Really, I much prefer a simple "yeah, we treat physics as a guideline more than a rule" rather than reading over nine thousand paragraphs of technobabble that try to show something fundamental like FTL or something doesn't flat out ignore important parts of physics.

Effects, not methods are what matters to me.

Because before the Darkships, Mekanta was known for his tentacle ships.

And tentacle infantry.

And tentacle tanks.

These fiends treated even power-armored super-soldiers like preteen schoolgirls in a hentai movie!I did once have a nation of sapient octopii...

I did once have a nation of sapient octopii...When I was the fish people Bryn mentioned, our cruisers were giant crabs made out of nanites that tore enemies apart with their claws and devoured them. The ranged weapons... Let's just say they were a bit Freudian in hindsight.

crab

Anarchy Online has made it so that every time someone mentions "crab" or "crabs" I start thinking of carbonum armor, which I hate with a passion. :soap:

GODDAMN CARB

"crab pls"

Well, on the bright side, your ships will become more powerful whenever that particular pet peeve of yours makes you... crabby.

You know, this makes me wonder, when faced with a virtually invincible entity does that mean it's acceptable to use nukes in a technically accurate manner? After all, your acting under the assumption that it's going to give your foe nothing more than a blister in the first place...

Nah, it's been Fantasy in Space (cue tropelink here) since the beginning - since the Space Elves showed up, if not sooner.

Really, I much prefer a simple "yeah, we treat physics as a guideline more than a rule" rather than reading over nine thousand paragraphs of technobabble that try to show something fundamental like FTL or something doesn't flat out ignore important parts of physics.

Effects, not methods are what matters to me.

I sail through hell, that is all that need be said ^^

Well, on the bright side, your ships will become more powerful whenever that particular pet peeve of yours makes you... crabby.

Indeed, indeed. Hate only makes my fleets stronger!

You know, while I'm on the subject of space ships, I don't think I've ever actually used the Ermorian flagship in a proper RP. I've played with the thought and sometimes done it as an afterthought... But it's never been used against a spacefaring nation.

Then again, the Trismegistus is horribly wanky. A flying, gigantic clawed skeletal-sorta hand thing with this gigantic green flaming ball of light on its palm. In addition to that it can grab a star and make it UNHOLY!

Hrm. Would be interesting to throw the Avatar Fleet at such ships. After all, no crew, no emotions. :D

I should be worried... but then I got a brilliant idea from Jayred Ice-Veins. Of course, the concept depends upon getting a hold of errant pieces of the target, but it only reinforces my belief that my way of doing runes is better.

Hrm. Would be interesting to throw the Avatar Fleet at such ships. After all, no crew, no emotions. :D

Well, the emotions of others are just an added bonus that sort of overpower them. Otherwise they can run just fine on HATRED FOR THE LIVING (tm) that's present in all Ermorian undead! :p

But yeah, it's quite a bit more difficult to go against machines than living beings. While I claim it to be possible to corrupt machines, it requires a lot more work than killing and reanimating the living.

Machines can totally be corrupted. It's fun to do.

Master Spark is for wimps. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kofnEdB8Blc&feature=related)

That's nothing compared to Icicle Fall.

Machines can totally be corrupted. It's fun to do.This coming from a guy who's ideas of fun include, but are not limited to: Bloodletting, decapitation, rape, rap music, psychological abuse, high and low treason, viral hallucinations, projectile vomit, and holding hands in public.

That's nothing compared to Icicle Fall.

Yes, but eye don't want to be too wanky. Eye'm not the strongest yet.

Rap music? Pfft. Childs play. Try soul shattering music milked from the very suffering of the unworthy! Holding hands is always fun, especially when they're not attached ^^

This coming from a guy who's ideas of fun include, but are not limited to: Bloodletting, decapitation, rape, rap music, psychological abuse, high and low treason, viral hallucinations, projectile vomit, and holding hands in public.

Adults having consentual vaginal intercourse in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation.

Rap music? Pfft. Childs play. Try soul shattering music milked from the very suffering of the unworthy!Fine, rap music with magic soul shattering lyrics.

Adults having consentual vaginal intercourse in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation.

Always fun, procreation aside. Too many of us viruses with shoes

And no! No Rap! Much more of a metalhead ^^

Indeed, indeed. Hate only makes my fleets stronger!

You know, while I'm on the subject of space ships, I don't think I've ever actually used the Ermorian flagship in a proper RP. I've played with the thought and sometimes done it as an afterthought... But it's never been used against a spacefaring nation.

Then again, the Trismegistus is horribly wanky. A flying, gigantic clawed skeletal-sorta hand thing with this gigantic green flaming ball of light on its palm. In addition to that it can grab a star and make it UNHOLY!
Bah. That's nothing more than a 'merely' difficult obstacle to us Coredians. There's nothing more evil than Remiel in our eyes.

Hell, Remiel can eat that hand for lunch!

Even we'd be cautious in dealing with something like that. No need for the Resisty to get cocky, Core. :P

Adults having consentual vaginal intercourse in the missionary position for the purpose of procreation.

Are you trying to creep up all out?:eek2:

Are you trying to creep up all out?:eek2:

Well I was just trolling, but apparently Chronosia actually gets off to that stuff.

Sick bastard.

Bah. That's nothing more than a 'merely' difficult obstacle to us Coredians.

Bah! Considering the MASSIVE FLEET OF EVIL (tm) that accompanies it that utilizes the same techbase, and the fact that the ship itself can, alone, unholify entire star systems (in a process that is much faster than that the Ermorian unholy priests would use)... It's no "'mere' difficult obstacle" I tells ya!

There's nothing more evil than Remiel in our eyes.

That's because you haven't seen the ruler of the Ashen Empire. Well, no one alive has, so... The Ashen Empire also likes to stay in the shadows ICly. Spread out in many star systems, unseen, never heard of by most... That's the way things are done in the lands of the dead.

Hell, Remiel can eat that hand for lunch!

Read Chronosia's response! :p

Well I was just trolling, but apparently Chronosia actually gets off to that stuff.

Sick bastard.

I'm much more creative than that. That's why I'm so luffable

Nah, it's been Fantasy in Space (cue tropelink here) since the beginning - since the Space Elves showed up, if not sooner.

I believe the last section of my post here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11247086&postcount=6) shows what I think of that.

Ya know, it would be interesting to see a Marauder Coreship take on a Darkship. Mostly because you'd have one power of utter evil facing one power of utter insanity, each holding technology that would make most people's jaws fall down to the floor.

That and the darn Marauders would try to ram their ship into the black hole so that the could grapple onto the enemy vessel and tear it to pieces like they usually do.

This coming from a guy who's ideas of fun include, but are not limited to: [...] holding hands in public.

:eek: Truly, Chron's evil knows no bounds!

Oh yes, Neo-Mekanta, I remember trying to get people into Dominions by trying to make them play the demo of Dominions 1, which, to date, is the most comprehensive demo of any Dominions game. D2 and D3 had a stupid turn limiter as well as a limiter on sides, D1 never did. D1 only had two limits: Research limited to level 4 and certain buyable units weren't usable. Also, D1 demo and D1 full version were perfectly playable together, which lead to a sort of an arms race back when the group I played with started buying the game.

When the first couple got it, the rest had to get it, too, to keep up... :p

Bah! Considering the MASSIVE FLEET OF EVIL (tm) that accompanies it that utilizes the same techbase, and the fact that the ship itself can, alone, unholify entire star systems (in a process that is much faster than that the Ermorian unholy priests would use)... It's no "'mere' difficult obstacle" I tells ya!
That's the same MO as Chaos. *Yaaaawn*

I'm totally not impressed. :tongue:

That's the same MO as Chaos. *Yaaaawn*

What, Chaos Chaosifies star systems with a giant clawed skeletal hand shaped vessel that turns the star system completely inhospitable for life? And Chaos gets more troops through killing the living and reanimating their corpses and stopping their souls from leaving the land of the living and binding them to the Underworld? And Chaos is mostly unknown by most, in part due to the fact that they have all the time in the Universe to finish their work?

I THINK NOT.

I'm totally not impressed. :tongue:

Well I'm not too impressed by YOU! :mad:

What, Chaos Chaosifies star systems with a giant clawed skeletal hand shaped vessel that turns the star system completely inhospitable for life? And Chaos gets more troops through killing the living and reanimating their corpses and stopping their souls from leaving the land of the living and binding them to the Underworld? And Chaos is mostly unknown by most, in part due to the fact that they have all the time in the Universe to finish their work?

I THINK NOT.

There are some pretty striking similarities.

While Chaos doesn't corrupt a system with a giant skeletal hand, it does have a nasty habit of partially subsuming star systems within the warp, which is a 40k version of a hell dimension.

Getting troops from the dead is the domain of Nurgle, one of the four gods of Chaos. Though they don't bind the souls of the slain to the underworld, instead they just eat the souls like chicken nuggets.

But Chaos is well known because they're highly interventionalist/evangelical in the propegation of their faith. Obviously the undead aren't.

Yup, we can raise the dead and corrupt swathes of space, but I would agree that Ermor is much more subtle and virulent and probably more of a long term problem than I. I am rash and wrathful and FALL UPON MY FOES LIKE THE VERY HOUNDS OF HADES, RENDING AND TEARING!

As a consequence I'm always rushing around, doing crusadey things and generally being overzealous in my propogation of evilness. People aren't as likely to attack me because of strategic alliances and over-militant stancing, but Ermor is more likely to be the knife in their back before they even know there's a problem, then SUBSUMING THEIR ENTIRE POPULACE IN MADNESS AND ROT.

I have spoken, that is all.

Bah. The Vojvodina-Nihonians are actually subtle enough to appear to be the good guys in every conflict they enter, due to consisting mostly of humans, not having a lot of territory, having a small military, and generally always being the ones who appear destined to triumph via the law of narrative causality! All just a front for their true, mind-shattering evil! And if their true evil is discovered, the enemy is only deluding itself, for that evil may in fact be nothing more than a façade for an inner heart of cosmic goodness! Which may in turn conceal a core of blackest evil, etc, etc

Who cares about looking good? True evil justifies itself through it's own twisted logic and revels in the doing of it, so that all it's evil deeds of evil lead to the triumph of evil through superior firepower. OF EVIL!

'Good'? 'Evil'? Bah! It is Ursinity that really matters...
^_^

Nonsense. The forces of evil usually think they're the good guys, and the others are the bad ones. Their evil actions they see as unfortunate necessities that they have to do in order to stop the heroes whom they view as evil. At very least, I've always found that kind of villain much more interesting than the "I'm going to destroy the universe because it's evil and powerful! And then I'm going to kick a puppy because it's evil and petty! And then I'm going to do other random evil deeds just to show how evil I am, and did I mention I'm evil? 'Cause I am!" type, which is rather boring and silly. Again, your mileage may vary on this.

There are some pretty striking similarities.

Because the Underworld and Inferno do have certain striking similarities, even if they aren't really the same at all!

While Chaos doesn't corrupt a system with a giant skeletal hand, it does have a nasty habit of partially subsuming star systems within the warp, which is a 40k version of a hell dimension.

But people are known for merrily fighting on Daemon worlds, aren't they? Try doing that with DEATH RAYS (tm) coming from the sun at joo! :p

Getting troops from the dead is the domain of Nurgle, one of the four gods of Chaos.

Which kind of makes Nurgle's doods similar to the forces of the Infernal Abyss from the same thing Ermor's from. Undead demons and all that, whom aren't consumed by the Underworld, but rather other sections of the Inferno!

Though they don't bind the souls of the slain to the underworld, instead they just eat the souls like chicken nuggets.

That's because the Underworld is supposed to be afterlife, Warp isn't quite the same. :p

But Chaos is well known because they're highly interventionalist/evangelical in the propegation of their faith. Obviously the undead aren't.

Indeed. Because the undead know full well, from earlier experience (they exterminated millions when the Holy Empire fell and the Ashen Empire came to be), that showing their true powars to all would probably end up in a war on bazillion fronts! Instead they choose to wait until the living begin to crumble... And strike. All the while expanding their reach to unclaimed, supposedly strategically unimportant systems for more resources (which equals MORE SHIPS and STUFF) for the inevitable confrontation that lies in the future.

The forces of evil usually think they're the good guys, and the others are the bad ones.

Well, in truth, the sentient Ermorian undead don't consider themselves evil. Life and unlife can't coexist in one realm, and as such, one has to destroy the other. Luckily for the undead, however, there's no time limit for this particular objective. :p

All this talk about the underworld reminds me that I have an ubership that's gone kinda Event Horizon, out there somewhere twiddling it's thumbs.

Unfortunatly I doubt I'd be very good at RPing that kind of thing.

You know, this makes me wonder, when faced with a virtually invincible entity does that mean it's acceptable to use nukes in a technically accurate manner? After all, your acting under the assumption that it's going to give your foe nothing more than a blister in the first place...

I've used multimegaton nukes in boarding actions. By the Adventurers' Guild. Nukes in FT are nothing special.

Of course, I also put antimatter bullets in my cheap, low-end sidearms. Generally sub-microgram amounts, however; carrying too much antimatter on your person tends to make you very unpopular with people who have to stand near you when you're getting shot at. :D

haha, quite true, blowing up your own friends never gets you invited to the celebration party afterwards. I just raised that since there's a bizzarre stigma against using nukes which seems odd when people are tieing super lasers to the ends of their space craft.

OG nuked my people as well as his alleged allies during one planetary engagement, but I still went to the trouble of hunting down the officer who ordered it, breaking her out of prison and merrily corrupting her to the service of Chaos. Genocidal willingness is such a treasured tool when it comes to subjugating the unworthy and the heretical.

haha, quite true, blowing up your own friends never gets you invited to the celebration party afterwards. I just raised that since there's a bizzarre stigma against using nukes which seems odd when people are tieing super lasers to the ends of their space craft.

Nukes in space aren't as useful, especially not as anti-ship weapons, as an antimatter warhead can be much smaller and have a much higher yield (to give just one example). Most people don't use them because either they prefer energy weapons such as turbolasers, or explosives which can get a lot more powerful once you introduce technobabble. For instance, the inverted muon-squark disymmetric flux warhead I just invented has a yield of 1 gram = 14 megatons of TNT, far better than boring old fusion warheads, and with the added benefit of being able to turn people into zombies.

OG nuked my people as well as his alleged allies during one planetary engagement, but I still went to the trouble of hunting down the officer who ordered it, breaking her out of prison and merrily corrupting her to the service of Chaos. Genocidal willingness is such a treasured tool when it comes to subjugating the unworthy and the heretical.

...

Chron, have I ever told you that I love you?

But not in a Slaaneshi way.

...

Chron, have I ever told you that I love you?

But not in a Slaaneshi way.

:D

All love is Slaaneshi love.

Evil for the sake of evil isn't very creative or interesting.

Neither is that comment, Bryn. Good job.

Evil for the sake of evil isn't very creative or interesting.

Tbh there are far more creative concepts in MT than in FT. Maybe because people actually have to think instead of fapping to handwavium and canons when they seek to make a coherent MT NS.

I actually use pulsed hawking conversion bombs rather than antimatter, in general. More expensive, but more compact, and a hell of a lot safer; even if the neutronium pile going up can be nasty itself, it's nothing compared to it's mass in antimatter.

Antimatter gets used by those on a budget because it's cheap. Dangerous, but cheap.

For instance, the inverted muon-squark disymmetric flux warhead I just invented has a yield of 1 gram = 14 megatons of TNT, far better than boring old fusion warheads, and with the added benefit of being able to turn people into zombies.

o.0

You realise that's better than total conversion, E=MC² right? Total, 100% conversion nets ~21.5 kilotons per gram. What you're claiming there is 651 times more powerful.

Just saying.

o.0

You realise that's better than total conversion, E=MC² right? Total, 100% conversion nets ~21.5 kilotons per gram. What you're claiming there is 651 times more powerful.

Just saying.I am not a nice person. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScifiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale)

If you're attempting to deprive me of a night's sleep by introducing me to TVtropes, you're far, far too late.

On both counts. :D

Tbh there are far more creative concepts in MT than in FT.

I launch my nucks at your capital. Post damages.

I meant a coherent MT NS

I launch my [Ka]nucks at your capital. Post damages.

Stop throwing my citizens at people! :angry:


:p

Stop throwing my citizens at people! :angry:


:pThen put them on diets and give them baths so they'll stop being WMDs.

Tbh there are far more creative concepts in MT than in FT. Maybe because people actually have to think instead of fapping to handwavium and canons when they seek to make a coherent MT NS.

I see it as merely another valid method of telling a story. Anything else, including tech, are simply window dressings for writing.

I meant a coherent MT NS

0012 Hours - Facehuggerland - Red Sands Nuclear Launch Facility.

The order came down with the gravitas one would expect of the genocide-by-nuke of another nation. The cleansing of an entire race of people was not something to be taken lightly. Even for a nation like Facehuggerland, one which had always prided itself on its huge and varied nuclear arsenal.

After all, "the bomb" was, in essence, a "get out of national invasion free" card. What sane and rational foe would press the attack, knowing that hidden facilities, like the one here at Red Sands, stood ready and able to rain spears of fire from the heavens?

It was, however, quite a different thing to use that arsenal offensively. Not technically - of course, MIRVed ICBMs care not who or what their targets are - but morally.

It was deemed necessary by the higher ups. The Furher and Assembly had both given their stamp of approval to Operation: Mad Max. The Third Spanish States had shown their true colours, and it was up to Facehuggerland to take them out, for the good of all.

A first strike, completely unannounced, was the best way to do that. Facehuggerland spy sattelites had, in the process of normal flyovers, mapped major population centers and obvious military bases in the states. Targets had been marked from there, and soon, atomic fire would bathe the land.

Oh, their missile defense systems would undoubtedly shoot some down. But Facehuggerland neglected its conventional military - as a consequence, it had nukes to spare. Huge laser-primed hydrogen bombs, along with smaller plutonium 'atomic' fission bombs. Each one many times the yield of the bombs that eradicated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Each one mated with the best targeting electronics that Facehuggerland's huge information sector could produce.

And of the states' retaliation? Well... What the chemical lasers and counter-nuclear missiles couldn't destroy, the nation would just accept. They were large enough that losing a few cities to take down such a threat to global peace and order was worth the cost.

Besides, most of the casualties would come in the useless sub-human citydwellers; uneducated brutes suited only for slaving away producing Facehuggerland's great nuclear arsenals.

TL; DR: 9,001 MIRV'd missiles (250 five megaton warheads; the rest are 250 kiloton warheads) are incoming to all readily visible TSS targets. Post damages and retaliation, please.

OOC: Yeah, FT has its problems with wank, but MT isn't safe either. The issues aren't with the medium, they're with the writing.

0012 Hours - Facehuggerland - Red Sands Nuclear Launch Facility.

The order came down with the gravitas one would expect of the genocide-by-nuke of another nation. The cleansing of an entire race of people was not something to be taken lightly. Even for a nation like Facehuggerland, one which had always prided itself on its huge and varied nuclear arsenal.

After all, "the bomb" was, in essence, a "get out of national invasion free" card. What sane and rational foe would press the attack, knowing that hidden facilities, like the one here at Red Sands, stood ready and able to rain spears of fire from the heavens?

It was, however, quite a different thing to use that arsenal offensively. Not technically - of course, MIRVed ICBMs care not who or what their targets are - but morally.

It was deemed necessary by the higher ups. The Furher and Assembly had both given their stamp of approval to Operation: Mad Max. The Third Spanish States had shown their true colours, and it was up to Facehuggerland to take them out, for the good of all.

A first strike, completely unannounced, was the best way to do that. Facehuggerland spy sattelites had, in the process of normal flyovers, mapped major population centers and obvious military bases in the states. Targets had been marked from there, and soon, atomic fire would bathe the land.

Oh, their missile defense systems would undoubtedly shoot some down. But Facehuggerland neglected its conventional military - as a consequence, it had nukes to spare. Huge laser-primed hydrogen bombs, along with smaller plutonium 'atomic' fission bombs. Each one many times the yield of the bombs that eradicated Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Each one mated with the best targeting electronics that Facehuggerland's huge information sector could produce.

And of the states' retaliation? Well... What the chemical lasers and counter-nuclear missiles couldn't destroy, the nation would just accept. They were large enough that losing a few cities to take down such a threat to global peace and order was worth the cost.

Besides, most of the casualties would come in the useless sub-human citydwellers; uneducated brutes suited only for slaving away producing Facehuggerland's great nuclear arsenals.

TL; DR: 9,001 MIRV'd missiles (250 five megaton warheads; the rest are 250 kiloton warheads) are incoming to all readily visible TSS targets. Post damages and retaliation, please.

OOC: Yeah, FT has its problems with wank, but MT isn't safe either. The issues aren't with the medium, they're with the writing.

Amen to that.

i think invulnerable ships are unfair

i think invulnerable ships are unfairSo do I. Luckily there's no such thing, just remarkably powerful ships that cast despair upon the ranks of lesser species with their presence alone. This can be readily counterbalanced with overwhelming numbers, applicable tactical information, coordinated evasive manuevers, and MORE DAKKA.

So do I. Luckily there's no such thing, just remarkably powerful ships that cast despair upon the ranks of lesser species with their presence alone. This can be readily counterbalanced with overwhelming numbers, applicable tactical information, coordinated evasive manuevers, and MORE DAKKA.

Don't forget, Klingon style RAMMING SPEEDS!

Don't forget, Klingon style RAMMING SPEEDS!There's a reason that Dalgorak capitol ships are shaped like giant hammers. And have heavy frontal ward rune arrays (shields) and armor plating. Heck, the parts of the hammer that stick out over the handle are mostly ramming thrusters.

Ramming?

Most of my ships are designed for that tactic with many protrusions to puncture the atmospheric envelope of the victim's ships. I even have some that are designed to puncture and then open up ripping the ship wide open.

It's fun to watch the twitching crew float out of a hull breach, gasping their last breath as their eyes rupture and their blood foams in their veins...


Um, did I say that out loud?

If you're attempting to deprive me of a night's sleep by introducing me to TVtropes, you're far, far too late.

On both counts. :D

He missed the target. I've been on that damned site for six hours now, just closed my last Tropes tab.

Cheers for ruining my entire Sunday!

Ramming?

Most of my ships are designed for that tactic with many protrusions to puncture the atmospheric envelope of the victim's ships. I even have some that are designed to puncture and then open up ripping the ship wide open.

It's fun to watch the twitching crew float out of a hull breach, gasping their last breath as their eyes rupture and their blood foams in their veins...


Um, did I say that out loud?

What kind of nincompoop doesn't have his crew in space suits* during combat?

*A power armor is good too.

Ramming?

Most of my ships are designed for that tactic with many protrusions to puncture the atmospheric envelope of the victim's ships. I even have some that are designed to puncture and then open up ripping the ship wide open.

It's fun to watch the twitching crew float out of a hull breach, gasping their last breath as their eyes rupture and their blood foams in their veins...


Um, did I say that out loud?Yes, and in doing so exposed your ignorance to the impact absolute zero temperatures have on one's potential to twitch, gasp, and foam. Rupturing is still possible, and is in fact encouraged if there's still air in the corpse's lungs.

Yes, and in doing so exposed your ignorance to the impact absolute zero temperatures have on one's potential to twitch, gasp, and foam. Rupturing is still possible, and is in fact encouraged if there's still air in the corpse's lungs.

I feel like being a **** and correcting you by saying that space isn't at absolute 0, infact I think it's around 46 kelvins give or take. =D

Anyway, I don't think a lot of ships have space suits for their entire crew, instead they have blast doors come down to prevent the ship from being totally decompressed.

Yes, and in doing so exposed your ignorance to the impact absolute zero temperatures have on one's potential to twitch, gasp, and foam. Rupturing is still possible, and is in fact encouraged if there's still air in the corpse's lungs.
That's not true either, you know. Space isn't cold in that sense, considering it's a vacuum. Honestly, explosive decompression (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExplosiveDecompression) and a case of Space Freeze (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsCold) are two of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to space killing. Yeah, you would die of hypoxia, axphyia and other breathing-related problems, but it isn't nearly as bad as Hollywood sees it. Also, it would require a rather large hole for decompression to affect a person in a light freighter, much less an ISD. Plenty of time to get a hole-patching kit if it's small enough. Still, this rule of thumb does apply: the bigger the hole, the bigger the problems.

On the cold bit, you'd actually have more problems with overheating and solar radiation than with being cold, considering that your body itself is a producer of heat with a sudden case of no convenient convection outlet. Kinda moot though with a sudden inability to breathe, but still...

If you want realistic deceptions, look no farther than Battlestar Galactica and Space 2001. If you want unrealistic deceptions, look no farther than the *gag, barf* people exploding in various bad sci-fi comics, genre, etc.

I feel like being a **** and correcting you by saying that space isn't at absolute 0, infact I think it's around 46 kelvins give or take. =D

Anyway, I don't think a lot of ships have space suits for their entire crew, instead they have blast doors come down to prevent the ship from being totally decompressed.
3 kelvins, actually.

That's not true either, you know. Space isn't cold in that sense, considering it's a vacuum. Honestly, explosive decompression (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExplosiveDecompression) and a case of Space Freeze (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsCold) are two of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to space killing. Yeah, you would die of hypoxia, axphyia and other breathing-related problems, but it isn't nearly as bad as Hollywood sees it. Also, it would require a rather large hole for decompression to affect a person in a light freighter, much less an ISD. Plenty of time to get a hole-patching kit if it's small enough. Still, this rule of thumb does apply: the bigger the hole, the bigger the problems.

On the cold bit, you'd actually have more problems with overheating and solar radiation than with being cold, considering that your body itself is a producer of heat with a sudden case of no convenient convection outlet. Kinda moot though with a sudden inability to breathe, but still...

If you want realistic deceptions, look no farther than Battlestar Galactica and Space 2001. If you want unrealistic deceptions, look no farther than the *gag, barf* people exploding in various bad sci-fi comics, genre, etc.


3 kelvins, actually.

Thanks for the corrections, and unfortunately I missed a rather cool documentary I was looking forward to about death via vacuum. I think it involved your blood bubbling though, kinda like a case of the bends only much, much worse.

BRAKING NEWS!

Sterility Virus Castrates the future of Central Facehuggeria

Unknown pandemic wipes furries out of Earth

Vault Dweller finds the Water Chip and saves Vault 13 in the ruins of Tucker

New Anglosphere Confederacy takes control of Vault City

Thanks for the corrections, and unfortunately I missed a rather cool documentary I was looking forward to about death via vacuum. I think it involved your blood bubbling though, kinda like a case of the bends only much, much worse.
Really? I didn't think the pressure difference (14 psi) of atmo and space was bad enough to cause the bends.

BRAKING NEWS!

Sterility Virus Castrates the future of Central Facehuggeria

Unknown pandemic wipes furries out of Earth

Vault Dweller finds the Water Chip and saves Vault 13 in the ruins of Tucker

New Anglosphere Confederacy takes control of Vault City

Unknown pandemic wipes out furries? FUCK YEAH.

*Turns Kanuckistani battleplate into a floating casino and pleasure barge.*

Really? I didn't think the pressure difference (14 psi) of atmo and space was bad enough to cause the bends.

This is just what I picked up from the previews to the documentary of course, but it talked about how the blood would bubble and such forth, which sounds like the bends.

blood would bubble

Sounds like a serious case of hotblood!

Sounds like a serious case of hotblood!

Must be orcs. :3

Don't forget, Klingon style RAMMING SPEEDS!

Provided you can actually hit the target - all that armour up front means you've probably had to make sacrifices elsewhere, especially if you want to keep your mass down to maintain acceleration and maneuverability.

And provided your enemy doesn't have really nasty close-in weapons and defences. Between the Gravy Guns and the Inversion Field, well, trying to ram a Battleplate would be a pretty damn funny affair.

"Your ship intersects the limited-aspect reality inversion field and slams nose-first into... itself." :D

What kind of nincompoop doesn't have his crew in space suits* during combat?

*A power armor is good too.

My nation's military uniforms are actually suits of light, NBC/vacuum-rated power armour.

Of course, my military is pretty small, personnel-wise, so it's not much of an added expense.


...And more than a few folks have augs that allow them to wander around in open space for a while unharmed, anyway. Always fun to pull a Mary Poppins through hard vacuum. :)


Unknown pandemic wipes out furries? FUCK YEAH.

*Turns Kanuckistani battleplate into a floating casino and pleasure barge.*


I'm actually surprised you're not already doing that with mock-ups, Vegas style.

Hey, Chron. I've got a question. How would your brand of Chaos react to, say, a Brighthammer (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/BrightHammer40k) nation?

Hey, Chron. I've got a question. How would your brand of Chaos react to, say, a Brighthammer (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/BrightHammer40k) nation?

Easy. Solar Communes could be considered Brighthammer's Chaos :D

Easy. Solar Communes could be considered Brighthammer's Chaos :D

Evil abominations brought from an alternate reality by the evil machinations of the mad (and evil) Tau Fum'aan Shu'u?

You realise that's better than total conversion, E=MC² right? Total, 100% conversion nets ~21.5 kilotons per gram. What you're claiming there is 651 times more powerful.

Just saying.
My point exactly.

He missed the target. I've been on that damned site for six hours now, just closed my last Tropes tab.

Cheers for ruining my entire Sunday!
I've had various tropes tabs open for several months now. You're not alone.

Evil abominations brought from an alternate reality by the evil machinations of the mad (and evil) Tau Fum'aan Shu'u?

An evil alternate reality?

And how would they react to my variant of Chaos?

Also: How much stuff can one realistically put on a missile? For instance, let's take a standard Vojvodina-Nihonian breacher missile, which can pass through shields due to, uh, temporary localized gravitic neutralization technobabble nonsense jargon blah-blah fields. (I forget exactly what the harder-sciency justification is for those.) Is it plausible to outfit it with its own AI, thrusters to maneuver out of the way of laser or anti-missile fire, et cetera, while keeping it reasonably-sized?

Also: How much stuff can one realistically put on a missile? For instance, let's take a standard Vojvodina-Nihonian breacher missile, which can pass through shields due to, uh, temporary localized gravitic neutralization technobabble nonsense jargon blah-blah fields. (I forget exactly what the harder-sciency justification is for those.) Is it plausible to outfit it with its own AI, thrusters to maneuver out of the way of laser or anti-missile fire, et cetera, while keeping it reasonably-sized?

It depends on a few things. Namely, how big the missile is, how big the warhead is, how big the field thinger is, how expensive it is (related to miniaturization), how miniaturized its electonics are, etc.

He is pointing out you are getting +650 times the energy out of matter than matter itself possesses.

That is what is confusing him.

It depends on a few things. Namely, how big the missile is, how big the warhead is, how big the field thinger is, how expensive it is (related to miniaturization), how miniaturized its electonics are, etc.
The missile would be about the size of a normal missile (7-10 m long, maybe 1-2 m in diameter?). A warhead could easily consist of no more than 1-2 kilograms of antimatter, held in place by a magnetic apparatus weighing, say, 30 kg. Field generators would take up most of the energy except when the missile needs to accelerate or maneuver, although they need only be large enough to allow the missile itself through. V-N is fairly advanced with electronics, as I've RPed development of near-sapient AIs with the ability to draw off power directly from engines, so I'd say they'd be fairly miniaturized. And these things are going to be expensive, otherwise I'd have a lot more of them; if I can put directional thrusters on them, they might in part usurp the role usually played by fighters in FT combat.

He is pointing out you are getting +650 times the energy out of matter than matter itself possesses.

That is what is confusing him.

Yes. I was using something known as "hyperbole" to point out the relative ineffectiveness of nuclear warheads in future technology, as there are ways to squeeze much more energy out of matter. Obviously nobody will try to make claims of that nature, but things like antimatter and conversion or annihilation warheads are in common use.

So who says nukes can't be useful in FT? I use 'em myself.

So who says nukes can't be useful in FT? I use 'em myself.

I use them for ground combat, but in space combat, they're really not all that effective because for a given warhead mass, anti-matter is a massively more destructive choice.

anti-matter

Shouldn't anti-matter also, you know, be harder to come by than what you need for nuclear missiles? :confused:

Shouldn't anti-matter also, you know, be harder to come by than what you need for nuclear missiles? :confused:

Not necessarily. Depends on your techbase.

If you've got a relatively cheap method of producing the stuff, you're good.

Heck, even if it's slightly more expensive than mining and refining uranium/enriching spent fuel into plutonium, anti-matter will still prevail because of how compact it is.

You could argue that nukes would be pretty effective sensor blockers, given that the area of space (albiet some kilometers) would become irradiated with all sorts of materials and radiation, where as anti-matter warheads would just emit a clean burst of gamma radiation that quickly dissipates in all directions.

Irradiating enemy hulls also ensures that ship is gonna take a LONG time to be refitted into service.

You could argue that nukes would be pretty effective sensor blockers, given that the area of space (albiet some kilometers) would become irradiated with all sorts of materials and radiation, where as anti-matter warheads would just emit a clean burst of gamma radiation that quickly dissipates in all directions.

Good point.

Irradiating enemy hulls also ensures that ship is gonna take a LONG time to be refitted into service.

Assuming you can even nail the hull. Most ships have shields to prevent that. Also, if you've got soft-SF tech, chances are that decontaminating a hull from a nuke isn't going to be that tough.

(Reverse the polarity! Cross the streams!)

You could argue that nukes would be pretty effective sensor blockers, given that the area of space (albiet some kilometers) would become irradiated with all sorts of materials and radiation, where as anti-matter warheads would just emit a clean burst of gamma radiation that quickly dissipates in all directions.

Irradiating enemy hulls also ensures that ship is gonna take a LONG time to be refitted into service.

And easy to trace too...

Which is why my boys are so fond of nukes: Not only are they destructive in the conventional sense, not only do they release an EMP, but they unleash radiation in a manner that's comparible to a drunken dwarf peeing on someone they don't like: They'll stink all the way home, and it'll take a while to get the smell out. Nevermind the risk of infection...

Technically nukes only generate an EMP when in the presence of a magnetic field, namely a planet's magnetic field. And even then I'm not sure if you need an atmosphere to generate the EMP effect as well or if it's just the giant fricken' magnetic field that does it.

Fission/fusion bombs are cheap, but they're bulky, and heavy, for their yields, so they lose out to antimatter and conversion most of the time, atleast in my nation.

In terms of making a mess, frankly, antimatter is pretty damn messy too; not only in reaction byproducts, but hard rads are going to tear atoms apart and make a real radioactive mess. A fission/fusion bomb might be worse, but only in there being more mass in the bomb to irradiate and spread around.

As for blinding sensors, the hard rad flash is probably going to do most of that, and space is already full of radiation - spotting a maneuvering warship shouldn't be too hard, even if there is a rapidly dispersing cloud of irradiated plasma between it and you.

Not that either'll hide you from gravitic sensors. *Hugs his GRIDAR... and massive support-drone clouds, too. They're fun.*


Yes. I was using something known as "hyperbole" to...

Ah, ok, I thought you were serious.

In my defence, it was almost 2am at the time.

*glances at clock*

...and it's now 2:30am.

Crap.

Fission/fusion bombs are
In terms of making a mess, frankly, antimatter is pretty damn messy too; not only in reaction byproducts, but hard rads are going to tear atoms apart and make a real radioactive mess. A fission/fusion bomb might be worse, but only in there being more mass in the bomb to irradiate and spread around.

From what I could understand from any physics book I could get my dirty hands on (unfortunately, while my AP physics book went into nuclear fusion and fission, it DIDN'T go into Matter/Anti-Matter reactions [oh the humanity!]), when a matter and anti-matter particle meet, they neatly destroy each other and produce two gamma rays that hold the energy of their combined mass, so while it makes a nice flash that quickly dissipates (or a nice bang), it's just not as messy as a nuke which lunches a broad spectrum of EM rays and radioactive particles.

Not saying that gamma rays can't kill ya via radiation (they cook cells nicely), but the fact that the radiation created would be speeding away at the speed of light doesn't make them good sensor blinds, and of course if that cloud of irradiated plasma is say, 10 meters of your port bow and blocking a good 180 degree of vision, it can certainly help make an escape until the ship moves around it.

Then again I could always be wrong, I'm still waiting to get my hands on a theoretical physics textbook.

In annihilation, particles don't become just photons - this would tend to violate conservation of momentum - so new particles are produced, sometimes very heavy ones.

Depending on the details, this can vary, but it's not a clean process - there'd be no point in 'smashing' particles in accellerators if all you got was gamma radiation.

Aye. Antimatter reactions are surprisingly messy and inefficient in general. Consider the bigger picture, too - an antiproton hits a proton in an atom's nucleus, what happens to the atom? I'm not sure if that's enough energy to blow it apart, but I doubt the results will be clean. Etc., etc.

Further, the gamma flash will rip atoms apart and turn the missile body/etc. into a cloud of radioactive plasma. And plasma dissipates rapidly in space - it's a gas, surrounded by vacuum.

And while the flash will not last more than a moment, it can be seen as akin to a camera flash - it can temporarily blind you(in EM, atleast), as your ultra-sensitive sensors act to protect themselves from being fried(assuming they weren't damaged), then take time to reset and come back on line.

I use them for ground combat, but in space combat, they're really not all that effective because for a given warhead mass, anti-matter is a massively more destructive choice.

They're a fine choice if one cannot fabricate their own antimatter in useful quantities.

They're a fine choice if one cannot fabricate their own antimatter in useful quantities.

Is that an export market I sense? :D

Technically nukes only generate an EMP when in the presence of a magnetic field, namely a planet's magnetic field. And even then I'm not sure if you need an atmosphere to generate the EMP effect as well or if it's just the giant fricken' magnetic field that does it.You do. EMP == loose electrons. No electrons, no EMP.

Though in fairness, the x/ gamma-ray flash from a nuclear detonation (Be it fission, fusion or annihilation-based; as long as it produces x- or gammarays, it counts) could in theory cause an EMP inside the atmosphere of the target. Of course, if it's capable of penetrating the target's hull (And optionally, shielding) with enough energy to still have a substantial effect, the EMP is the least of your worries.

Incidentally, I'd like to note that your - not Sertians, but generally - average one-kilometre battleship, massing, say, maybe about a hundred million tons (Assuming a relatively conventional techbase; no superdense-anythings), going at a sedate 0.01 c, carries a kinetic energy of approx. 107 teratons worth of TNT-equivalent (For comparison - high-end wanking or star wars gets you 1/500 of that as a turbolaser charge; the 'roid that wiped out the dinos is reckoned to have had a yield somewhere between 10- 100 TTs). As does your opponent. If you ram your opponent, you're just as dead as them, and if you've sticks protruding from your ship to pierce or slash a target, those sticks will be instantaneously vaporised.

To say nothing about the momentum involved.

At least in my nation's case, nuclear weapons are simply a step up from chemical explosives. They allow more boom in a smaller package.

(For comparison - high-end wanking or star wars gets you 1/500 of that as a turbolaser charge; the 'roid that wiped out the dinos is reckoned to have had a yield somewhere between 10- 100 TTs).

Actually, High-end wanking of SW gets you turbolasers in the single-digit petatons. Really high end wanking gets you fighters with half the death star's firepower. But that's more silly than anything.

Midrange figures peg HTLs at a max of around ~1 TT/shot if I remember the ROTS: ICS right. So each turbolaser would have 1/107th the firepower of your ramming maneuver.

Not that it detracts from your point at all. It's just that as a warsie, I feel compelled to point out your error. :p

Actually, High-end wanking of SW gets you turbolasers in the single-digit petatons. Really high end wanking gets you fighters with half the death star's firepower. But that's more silly than anything.

Midrange figures peg HTLs at a max of around ~1 TT/shot if I remember the ROTS: ICS right. So each turbolaser would have 1/107th the firepower of your ramming maneuver.

Not that it detracts from your point at all. It's just that as a warsie, I feel compelled to point out your error. :p

He said 'turbolaser' not 'heavy turbolaser' so there! </Nitpick-of-nitpick>

You could argue that nukes would be pretty effective sensor blockers, given that the area of space (albiet some kilometers) would become irradiated with all sorts of materials and radiation, where as anti-matter warheads would just emit a clean burst of gamma radiation that quickly dissipates in all directions.

Would it really though? I was under the impression that detonating a nuclear weapon in space would spread very little radiation, because the kind of radiation emitted by nuclear weapons requires an atmosphere to spread, or something. Meh.

Would it really though? I was under the impression that detonating a nuclear weapon in space would spread very little radiation, because the kind of radiation emitted by nuclear weapons requires an atmosphere to spread, or something. Meh.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that only the EMP requires an atmosphere to propegate.

The hard radiation released would work just as well in space as on the ground.

Would it really though? I was under the impression that detonating a nuclear weapon in space would spread very little radiation, because the kind of radiation emitted by nuclear weapons requires an atmosphere to spread, or something. Meh.

Perhaps some radiation from the bomb is soaked up by the atmosphere and turned into radioactive particles as well, but the same thing can happen to the hull of an enemy vessel, although since the radiation would spread out in all directions you're not going to get it all to irradiate the enemy's hull, but this is all conjecture.

Of course, if they use particle shields (which I assume most basic shields are) I wonder if that could become irradiated as well? x3

Turbolasers are still short-ranged, line-of-sight, plasma-based crap weapons.

/rantoff


Anyway, large, dirty explosions make good ECM. Of course, it blinds you as much as it blinds the enemy, unless you deployed sensor probes around the blast radius so that they can send you targeting data.

This is the basic premise behind my "Solar Flare" countermeasure. They're essentially cheap conversion warheads with a dense outer casing and basic thrusters designed to explode between my ships and the enemy ships in a massive cloud of radiation and plasma. Plasma is relatively useless as a weapon (unless you can get it to the other guy's hull while it's still hot and has more density than the steam coming out of my tea kettle), but can play merry hob with any sensors or scanners that aren't wanktastic.

Turbolasers are still short-ranged, line-of-sight, plasma-based crap weapons.

/rantoff

They're line of sight, still not short-ranged or plasma-based. The ROTS:ICS puts a Venator's turbolaser turrets max range as 10 light-minutes and I can't recall which ICS states that the the turbolaser bolt is composed of light-speed exotic particles that decay into photons but one does. Yes Tibanna gas is used in turbolasers but that doesn't make them plasma-based any more than the laser part makes them lasers. This is canon, whether you think its retarded or not has no bearing on its correctness as it stands to Star Wars. Get over it already.

They're line of sight, still not short-ranged or plasma-based. The ROTS:ICS puts a Venator's turbolaser turrets max range as 10 light-minutes and I can't recall which ICS states that the the turbolaser bolt is composed of light-speed exotic particles that decay into photons but one does. Yes Tibanna gas is used in turbolasers but that doesn't make them plasma-based any more than the laser part makes them lasers. This is canon, whether you think its retarded or not has no bearing on its correctness as it stands to Star Wars. Get over it already.

So what your saying is their basically some thing like a CO2 or some other sort of gas laser that we use to day, Only they fire bolts and use futuristic components?

Any way as for range I've never seen any SW nation rp them shooting that far, then again most people go for the flashy close ranged knife fight standard in all movies. Plus you can't really blame people for not being familiar with any tech manuals. A-lot of us go on what we see Ie the onscreen evidence in the movies. Weather or not some obscure tech manual is canon or not its not like every one has access to it all the time or even know about it.

So what your saying is their basically some thing like a CO2 or some other sort of gas laser that we use to day, Only they fire bolts and use futuristic components?

Hell if I know, that's just what the fluff says.

Any way as for range I've never seen any SW nation rp them shooting that far, then again most people go for the flashy close ranged knife fight standard in all movies. Plus you can't really blame people for not being familiar with any tech manuals. A-lot of us go on what we see Ie the onscreen evidence in the movies. Weather or not some obscure tech manual is canon or not its not like every one has access to it all the time or even know about it.

You can look it up on the internet, somewhere like Wookiepedia probably has it. If someone wants to RP Star Wars in a non-canonical way all the more power to them, it just doesn't apply to the canon of Star Wars.

True that, but I think some people just like those knife fights. Any way 10 light minutes is just over an AU, and even a weapon going at C would take a bit to get there so any one could dodge. and the bolt weapons would have the accuracy of a hammer. Missile weapons would be far more effective at those ranges. Aren't ISD's equipped with missiles?

The interior mechanisms of a tiny hold-out blaster, a blaster pistol, a large blaster rifle, and a turbolaser cannon are based on the same theories and principles. A squeeze of a trigger emits volatile blaster gas into a conversion chamber, where it is excited by energy from the weapon's power source. The agitated gas is then funneled through the actuating blaster module, where it is processed into an intense particle beam. A prismatic crystal focuses the beam, and passes it through a refinement chamber which "galvens" the beam into its final bolt.

Explain to me how this is not a charged particle beam, AKA plasma.


And hey, if you want to use CPBs more power to you. For relatively short ranged, Hornblower-style ship to ship battles there's absolutely nothing better (assuming you want to ignore the oh-so-troublesome charge building up on your ship that will turn you into the largest static shock generator the moment you try to dock with something; however even most hard sci fi writers ignore this fact so we'll go with it)

Just don't expect to hit a target at light minute ranges with any sense of military strategy and a boatload of guided weapons at their disposal. That's simply the shortfall of unguided weapons at these ranges. A decent commander doesn't even need to be able to see the weapon coming to dodge it.

But, like I said, for what they're designed for (more cinematic, close ranged fights which are admittedly sometimes fun), they're pretty freaking epic.

Any way 10 light minutes is just over an AU, and even a weapon going at C would take a bit to get there

Indeed, it'd take ten minutes :p.

That's what people find so fascinating about long-range space combat though. Much like some snipers take joy in getting accurate shots at ranges other people would balk at, shooting something as tiny as a space ship at such colossal distances whilst simultaneously attempting to evade their attacks takes skill and significant computer guidance. In hard science fiction, where energy shields are a non-issue, long range battles become even more necessary.

You people forget that, while it does take 10 minutes for a weapon going at c or near c to hit something ten minutes away, it also takes 10 minutes for the light of that weapon to reach the target. So realistically, a weapon fight at 10cs would be like playing a really, really, really, laggy game on both sides. Your reaction speed is crap, but the bullets still shoot as fast as they're supposed to!

Then again if you want to use a sensor that can not only detect the individual weapon signatures from a ship ten light minutes away, determine the trajectory of all those weapons firing - well I'm sure half the people would claim to have those, so blah!

That's what I'm saying. The only realistic way to accurately target an enemy at those ranges (assuming we're not using FTL active scanners) is to measure their velocity and acceleration, and make an educated assumption that they're either going to hold that course or make a maneuver.

It's like chess. If you're playing a move at a time, you're going to lose unless your opponent is also playing a move at a time, and those games are usually really boring. You want to play many moves ahead, anticipate your enemy's reactions, and hope to whatever deity you believe in that he isn't smarter than you.

Guided weapons, however, cut down on the guess work needed, because they can maneuver closer to the target. It's much easier for a computer to predict an enemy's position at ten light seconds as opposed to ten light minutes.

I think we can safely ignore the ten light minutes thing AND the lightspeed thing, seeing as how in every book and movie, bolts are visibly slower than light and combat is at visual range.

I think we can safely ignore the ten light minutes thing AND the lightspeed thing, seeing as how in every book and movie, bolts are visibly slower than light and combat is at visual range.

Not so much in books, since a lot of them tend to keep to hard scifi, or at least close to it (minus those based off of television series or movies). And when you can see it, then well, you generally get those results for the Rule of Cool.

They're line of sight, still not short-ranged or plasma-based. The ROTS:ICS puts a Venator's turbolaser turrets max range as 10 light-minutes and I can't recall which ICS states that the the turbolaser bolt is composed of light-speed exotic particles that decay into photons but one does. Yes Tibanna gas is used in turbolasers but that doesn't make them plasma-based any more than the laser part makes them lasers. This is canon, whether you think its retarded or not has no bearing on its correctness as it stands to Star Wars. Get over it already.

You realise that's an old, old fan theory to bolster StarWars, based on an FX error where asteroids, iirc, exploded a few frames befor the turbolaser bolts hit them, right? It's canon because one of the fanboys who supported it got a chance to write canon material.

This is just one example of why fans should never be allowed to play with their pet canons without adult supervision.

:p


That's what I'm saying. The only realistic way to accurately target an enemy at those ranges (assuming we're not using FTL active scanners) is to measure their velocity and acceleration, and make an educated assumption that they're either going to hold that course or make a maneuver.


And if they have any of either worth mentioning, and know you're shooting at them, you might as well save your ammo at that distance.

As for FTL sensors - and I assume most folks have them, otherwise it'd take IC hours to notice a ship entering the same system - they cut both ways. You spot incoming fire sooner, but the enemy also gets better targeting data, so it more-or-less balances out. And even with sublight sensors, if you have FTL comms, you can forward-deploy sensor/ECM drones, or even use missile datalinks, and cut down on the light-lag considerably.

I actually forward-deploy alot of point-defence in my drone shells for light-lag reasons, albeit weapon propagation rather than sensor(tho my uber ship-only FTLi does block my own FTL sensors, so those have to be drone mounted) - it's fairly ideal, as even if most never really get close, those in the area that fighters/missiles approach through would have a fairly easy time of it, with minimal weapon lag and excellent sensor feeds and ECM/ECCM support, while almost noone bothers to shoot at the things.

You people forget that, while it does take 10 minutes for a weapon going at c or near c to hit something ten minutes away, it also takes 10 minutes for the light of that weapon to reach the target. So realistically, a weapon fight at 10cs would be like playing a really, really, really, laggy game on both sides. Your reaction speed is crap, but the bullets still shoot as fast as they're supposed to!

This. You'll only be able to detect a laser beam being fired ten light-minutes away once it actually arrives, if it travels at the speed of light. A guided missile traveling at .999c leaves you a couple of seconds, and it can maneuver just as fast as you can. Et cetera.


As for FTL sensors - and I assume most folks have them, otherwise it'd take IC hours to notice a ship entering the same system - they cut both ways. You spot incoming fire sooner, but the enemy also gets better targeting data, so it more-or-less balances out. And even with sublight sensors, if you have FTL comms, you can forward-deploy sensor/ECM drones, or even use missile datalinks, and cut down on the light-lag considerably.

Eh. I can tolerate FTL sensors, although the one place I really dislike them is when they're used by people under an FTLi field. That sort of defeats the purpose of an FTLi field in the first place. As for V-N, it has sublight sensors only, but FTL comms (which can only be sent from the ship due to the energy required to send them) and arrays of nanoprobes, which fulfill the same general function. And presumably won't work under FTLi, except at normal lightspeed.

Eh. I can tolerate FTL sensors, although the one place I really dislike them is when they're used by people under an FTLi field. That sort of defeats the purpose of an FTLi field in the first place. As for V-N, it has sublight sensors only, but FTL comms (which can only be sent from the ship due to the energy required to send them) and arrays of nanoprobes, which fulfill the same general function. And presumably won't work under FTLi, except at normal lightspeed.
Generally speaking though, FTL communications and sensor networks are a lot harder to block with FTLi than regular FTL because they're not limited by ship engines. You would need specific jamming technology to do so.

Ah, and that comes to my biggest pet peeve in FT. ECM and ECCM. I have only seen a few nations who actually use it. Where is the jamming order? Where are the fights to tear up the enemy's ability to see you while trying to scan enemy positions to shoot them?

It's entirely one thing to scan an enemy vessel from light minutes away, I have very little problem with that, it does make things simpler. It is entirely another thing though, to have that same sensor detect the (relatively) small mass of missiles, as well as the energy signature of weapons. There's also the fact that lasers are (virtually) invisible until they can hit you, so...

This is why you don't have your ship follow an easily predictable course when engaging an enemy over such a distance.

Ah, and that comes to my biggest pet peeve in FT. ECM and ECCM. I have only seen a few nations who actually use it. Where is the jamming order? Where are the fights to tear up the enemy's ability to see you while trying to scan enemy positions to shoot them?

The phrase "home on jam" comes to mind. ;)

More seriously, ECM drones would be a pretty good investment. Put out enough noise so you can't accurately tell which target is which, and you just greatly reduced what your shields have to deal with.

Generally speaking though, FTL communications and sensor networks are a lot harder to block with FTLi than regular FTL because they're not limited by ship engines. You would need specific jamming technology to do so.

I've considered actually developing the technology sufficient to do that. Or, if that's too difficult, setting up some kind of field on board my ships that leads the particles people use for FTL comms or sensors to pass right through the ship rather than bouncing off and giving away our position (as that is ordinarily how sensors work -- you send out, say, a radio wave, and it bounces off an object, and the changes in the pattern indicate that there's an object there). Of course, that would leave the ships vulnerable to FTL weapons as well, but if nobody can detect that we're there on FTL sensors, how are they going to fire an FTL weapon? :P

I've considered actually developing the technology sufficient to do that. Or, if that's too difficult, setting up some kind of field on board my ships that leads the particles people use for FTL comms or sensors to pass right through the ship rather than bouncing off and giving away our position (as that is ordinarily how sensors work -- you send out, say, a radio wave, and it bounces off an object, and the changes in the pattern indicate that there's an object there). Of course, that would leave the ships vulnerable to FTL weapons as well, but if nobody can detect that we're there on FTL sensors, how are they going to fire an FTL weapon? :P

I've never understood how sensors work in science fiction. Most famously, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture Spock complained that their sensor scans were being 'reflected back', which I would assume to be a good thing, but apparently it rendered them useless...

You realise that's an old, old fan theory to bolster StarWars, based on an FX error where asteroids, iirc, exploded a few frames befor the turbolaser bolts hit them, right? It's canon because one of the fanboys who supported it got a chance to write canon material.

This is just one example of why fans should never be allowed to play with their pet canons without adult supervision.

:p

Kanuck, Dr. Curtis Saxton isn't a 'fanboy' by any stretch of the imagination. He's an accredited, published physicist. :(

Kanuck, Dr. Curtis Saxton isn't a 'fanboy' by any stretch of the imagination. He's an accredited, published physicist. :(

I wasn't aware that physicists were immune from having fanatical devotion to things... in fact I'd have thought they were more prone to it!

I wasn't aware that physicists were immune from having fanatical devotion to things... in fact I'd have thought they were more prone to it!

The term 'fanboy' has a lot of negative connotations related to 'not thinking things through.'

:p

He also chooses to ignore anything that doesn't make the Empire OMGWIN!!!!11!1!three. ;)

Blargh. I need to actually get involved in an RP and stop just posting tech writeups on NSD >_<


That said, is utilizing quantum entanglement for FTL communication overly wanky?

[...] canon of Star Wars.Nonsense. There is no such thing. Or if there is, there's several. Lucas' gone on record stating that there's about... what? Three of them? :-pAny way 10 light minutes is just over an AU, and even a weapon going at C would take a bit to get there so any one could dodge. and the bolt weapons would have the accuracy of a hammer. Missile weapons would be far more effective at those ranges. Aren't ISD's equipped with missiles?'Maximum range' != 'Usable Range'. A laser- or particle beam doesn't just stop propagating at some point, they just disperse, lose energy density over time/ distance. The more energy you pump into your beam, the greater will be the distance over which it can still cause significant damage, regardless of whether it'll arrive there in this century or the next one.You realise that's an old, old fan theory to bolster StarWars, based on an FX error where asteroids, iirc, exploded a few frames befor the turbolaser bolts hit them, right? It's canon because one of the fanboys who supported it got a chance to write canon material.

This is just one example of why fans should never be allowed to play with their pet canons without adult supervision.^5Generally speaking though, FTL communications and sensor networks are a lot harder to block with FTLi than regular FTL because they're not limited by ship engines.Wha...? The ultra-high energy densities on an FTL-drive are supposed to be blocked, but the fantastically low energy densities of FTL sensors burn through...? That's nonsense.

You still (Sort of) raise a good point, though. FTLi (Oh how I loathe you) should block all FTL sensors/ communications flat. Which does, admittedly, make a decent excuse for engagements over spitting distance.I've never understood how sensors work in science fiction. Most famously, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture Spock complained that their sensor scans were being 'reflected back', which I would assume to be a good thing, but apparently it rendered them useless...Given the ability of trek-sensors to penetrate a given target and count the lifeforms on it (Yeah, it's stupid, so what?), I'd presume it meant 'Reflected so we don't know what's inside the damn thing, as we do with everything else we point our sensors at.'Kanuck, Dr. Curtis Saxton isn't a 'fanboy' by any stretch of the imagination. He's an accredited, published physicist.What would you think of an accredited, published physicist trying to analyse the real world based on, oh, I don't know... Steven Seagal films?

That's rather like how everyone whose head isn't stuck in Lucas' arse thinks about Saxton :-p

Now, granted - it's just his hobby. Not science. But this just means that for anything not concerning real-world science data, all his accredited, published physicist-ness is worth fuckall.

Arguing about Star Wars "lasers" energy stats is like arguing on how long is Cthulhu's dick or about how many degrees Celsius a fireball casted by a level 5 Wizard in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5th Ed Rules has. Mythical forces aren't supposed to make sense... Seriously, replace light sabers with swords(or katanas ^_^), the Jedis with Wizard and Darth Vader with a Lich and what do we get? Generic fantasyland. Star Wars is more like Fantasy in SPACE! than Science Fiction.

Also, it was never originally intended for a book. Or for something cult enough to make sense rather than being a blockbuster popcorn movie. It wasn't even focused on the shinies, they were there to look cool mostly than to be explained. Thus why I tolerate SW more than ST, for its movies had a much lower load of technobabble.

Solar Communes is something like 92% Science Fiction, 8 % Fantasy(BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!)

Wha...? The ultra-high energy densities on an FTL-drive are supposed to be blocked, but the fantastically low energy densities of FTL sensors burn through...? That's nonsense.

You still (Sort of) raise a good point, though. FTLi (Oh how I loathe you) should block all FTL sensors/ communications flat. Which does, admittedly, make a decent excuse for engagements over spitting distance.
Depends both on the FTLi and FTL comms used. Broadcasting through another dimension? Probably blocked by typical FTLi. Teleporting message capsules back and forth like a futuristic pneumatic tube? Definitely blocked. A pair of entangled particles? Probably not.

...how long is Cthulhu's dick...

Thirty-eight point seven inches.

No. I will not tell you how I know.

Explain to me how this is not a charged particle beam, AKA plasma.

Since turbolasers act nothing like a charged particle beam they can't be charged particle beams, they can't be lasers either for the same reason. Newer information states turbolasers are exotic light-speed particles. The visible bolts travel STL but the damaging energy is lightspeed, since the superlaser blast from the Death Star propagates at c it would appear the visible portion speeds up with range. As I said before, it doesn't matter what you think of it, it's still canon.

You realise that's an old, old fan theory to bolster StarWars, based on an FX error where asteroids, iirc, exploded a few frames befor the turbolaser bolts hit them, right? It's canon because one of the fanboys who supported it got a chance to write canon material.

Using the Suspension of Disbelief method of analysis we treat that not a FX error but actual documentary footage. It's in the canon therefore we treat is as such. That means that Dr. Saxton's material published in the ICSes is canon, no matter what you think of his motives.

Nonsense. There is no such thing. Or if there is, there's several. Lucas' gone on record stating that there's about... what? Three of them? :-p

There are different levels of canon. The movies, the books, everything else basically.

EDIT: That's all for me on this for now.

Given the ability of trek-sensors to penetrate a given target and count the lifeforms on it (Yeah, it's stupid, so what?), I'd presume it meant 'Reflected so we don't know what's inside the damn thing, as we do with everything else we point our sensors at.

Yeah but, if during normal operations nothing gets reflected back, where's the information coming from?! There has to be some feedback for you to actually detect anything!

*eyetwitch*

Official site...

Particle beam...

Charged...


*a loud pop is heard from Feazanthia's general direction*

Yeah but, if during normal operations nothing gets reflected back, where's the information coming from?! There has to be some feedback for you to actually detect anything!They just left out the 'Reflected early', or 'Reflected by its hull' bit, since it's implicit, and universally understood, in-universe. Not dissimilar to when we, say, go and say 'Kilo', instead of 'Kilogram'. 'A kilo oranges' makes no sense at all, scientifically speaking. But everyone understands that it means a kilogram.Using the Suspension of Disbelief method of analysis we treat that not a FX error but actual documentary footage.I found a flaw in this method. Treating fiction as documentaries, even if it has Harrison Ford in it, makes you a very sad little man, no matter whether it's Star Wars or Indiana Jones.

No offence intended. It's just the truth.

*eyetwitch*

Official site...

Particle beam...

Charged...


*a loud pop is heard from Feazanthia's general direction*

The official site also listed the Executor as 12.8km long when clearly it was longer than that in the films. Same applies to turbolasers, doesn't act like a particle beam it's not a particle beam. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

I found a flaw in this method. Treating fiction as documentaries, even if it has Harrison Ford in it, makes you a very sad little man, no matter whether it's Star Wars or Indiana Jones.

No offence intended. It's just the truth.

Playing make-believe games on the internet makes you a very sad little man.

No offense intended. It's just the truth. Guess that makes us both losers right? :rolleyes:

Then shouldn't the phrase "doesn't do anything at 10 lightminutes in the movie, can't do anything at 10 lightminutes" be included here? Seriously, they're fighting at ranges shorter than a second with bolts that move much slower than light with one single exception due to an editing error. If it's a documentary, wouldn't that show that standard engagement ranges are stupidly low?

Then shouldn't the phrase "doesn't do anything at 10 lightminutes in the movie, can't do anything at 10 lightminutes" be included here? Seriously, they're fighting at ranges shorter than a second with bolts that move much slower than light with one single exception due to an editing error. If it's a documentary, wouldn't that show that standard engagement ranges are stupidly low?

If you read the EU, again canon, that's due to intense jamming. In the novelization of ANH it states that the Death Star puts out enough jamming to warp space. When fighting the Yuuzhan Vong which do not put out jamming they engage at much longer ranges. If it doesn't contradict the movies it's included and nothing in the movies contradicts 10 light-minute max range under the best possible conditions. Nothing in the movies contradicts an invisible damaging portion of turbolasers travelling at c either. The damage before visible bolt hit and the Death Star superlaser propagating at c in fact support it.

I think that any science taken from a film or movie that doesn't keep to hard scientific principles should have a fifth, universal force applied to it.

Known as the Universal force of cool, it allows all the other universal forces to be modified and/or disregarded for the sake of making nifty 'splosions.

Then shouldn't the phrase "doesn't do anything at 10 lightminutes in the movie, can't do anything at 10 lightminutes" be included here? Seriously, they're fighting at ranges shorter than a second with bolts that move much slower than light with one single exception due to an editing error. If it's a documentary, wouldn't that show that standard engagement ranges are stupidly low?Well, it's traditional for people who treat fiction as documentaries to disregard everything they don't like in favour of outliers they do like.

Biblical literalists do it, so why shouldn't Star Wars literalists?

Wha...? The ultra-high energy densities on an FTL-drive are supposed to be blocked, but the fantastically low energy densities of FTL sensors burn through...? That's nonsense.

You still (Sort of) raise a good point, though. FTLi (Oh how I loathe you) should block all FTL sensors/ communications flat. Which does, admittedly, make a decent excuse for engagements over spitting distance.

The idea is that a lot of micro wormholes or something similar occurs a lot on the quantum level naturally, so communications can be sent through those, even if FTLi is blocking off artificial wormholes or whatever.

As for entangled particles.... what kind of particle is an entangled particle? Is it a baryon, a lepton, a tachyon, a messenger particle, etc.?

Arguing about Star Wars "lasers" energy stats is like arguing on how long is Cthulhu's dick or about how many degrees Celsius a fireball casted by a level 5 Wizard in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5th Ed Rules has. Mythical forces aren't supposed to make sense... Seriously, replace light sabers with swords(or katanas ^_^), the Jedis with Wizard and Darth Vader with a Lich and what do we get? Generic fantasyland. Star Wars is more like Fantasy in SPACE! than Science Fiction.

I've been saying this for years. Nobody listens though.

In fact, most so-called "science fiction" is really just some other genre INSPACE. Star Wars, as already mentioned, along with Warhammer 40K and the like: fantasy. Firefly: Western. Weberverse: Napoleonic Wars, etc., etc. -- and the creators usually admit to this. "Real" science fiction is actually awfully limited. Even pioneer works like the Foundation series were just Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire INSPACE.

Then shouldn't the phrase "doesn't do anything at 10 lightminutes in the movie, can't do anything at 10 lightminutes" be included here? Seriously, they're fighting at ranges shorter than a second with bolts that move much slower than light with one single exception due to an editing error. If it's a documentary, wouldn't that show that standard engagement ranges are stupidly low?

Shhh, that will give anyone who uses SW tech a huge disadvantage in combat, and around here the story is more important, or something. Supposedly. Even though everyone seems to prefer "I fire 270000 lasers at your planet, post losses plz."

I think that any science taken from a film or movie that doesn't keep to hard scientific principles should have a fifth, universal force applied to it.

Known as the Universal force of cool, it allows all the other universal forces to be modified and/or disregarded for the sake of making nifty 'splosions.

Ah yes, the Rule of Cool. Some things (like Coruscant) are actually powered by it.

Nonsense. There is no such thing. Or if there is, there's several. Lucas' gone on record stating that there's about... what? Three of them?
Actually, yes and no: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

There is G-canon, which are the movies as well as...

Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon.

T-canon, which covers the TV shows (Clone Wars and the live-action TV show coming out this year).

There is C-canon, which are the books, video games (including fluff, excluding game mechanics), comics, etc.

And then there's S-canon and N-canon, which are respectively, semi-canon and non-canon.

Nothing in the movies contradicts an invisible damaging portion of turbolasers travelling at c either. The damage before visible bolt hit and the Death Star superlaser propagating at c in fact support it.
And every other shot in the movie contradicts it. :rolleyes:

Also, insert amusing comments about paper-thin armor on Storm Troopers and walkers here.

None of this changes the fact that unguided, line-of-sight weapons are fairly ineffective at light minute ranges.

Changing gears. We've beat this subject to death. Let's just let it live in the realm of individual RPs.


Espionage in the age of Future Tech. Are civilized planets the equivalent of an unsecured WIFI hotspot? Or would a person have to infiltrate a computer system to find, say, the navigational coordinates of a star system.

Depends. If a planet's been civilized for a while, it's pretty easy to notice it from far, far, FAR away (read: a number of light years equal to the number of years it's been colonized).

If you're referring to a world's computer systems, again it depends. Through their civilian nets, access would be pretty simple in anything but the most totalitarian states. Trying to get into military or government systems? Rather a lot harder, especially if they're smart and just isolate anything sensitive.

Changing gears. We've beat this subject to death. Let's just let it live in the realm of individual RPs.


Espionage in the age of Future Tech. Are civilized planets the equivalent of an unsecured WIFI hotspot? Or would a person have to infiltrate a computer system to find, say, the navigational coordinates of a star system.

Navigational coordinates would probably be on the civilian interwebs just like, say, google maps is.

Xenos are so disgusting for Solarians that direct forms of intelligence gathering besides killing everything blocking their way to the information they need is inviable.

Besides, nobody is willing to forfeit his humanity through the necessary genetic modifications to look like Xenos.

*Edit: Nevermind the different accounts. SC is just Third Spanish States in SPACE! after all

Well I'm Pretty sure you can look at them via a FTL sensor or telescope of some sort, but as for difficulty of getting in to nations computer systems, that really depends on the nation you're trying to spy on. Nations that have extremely well developed sentient AI and use that old quantum entanglement method to transfer data would take extreme amounts of time and energy to infiltrate. And for nations (Like dune based ones) that don't have computer systems just waltz in good ol spies to do the trick.

Erm... just 'hacking in' to an alien computer network would be a bit more difficult than just guessing a password. For starters, the hardware could be entirely alien, and the operating systems and connection protocols almost certainly would be. Then you have the fact that even if you managed to duplicate the hardware, operating system and all the necessary bits of code needed to connect to their systems, anything you downloaded would be in a completely unreadable format!

We have enough trouble on this planet with different system architectures, not to mention decades of legacy code, being incompatible with each other, let alone trying to hack into alien computers from afar.

Ah, but Vescopa, everyone uses Windows in the future!

Except the Boundless Empire. We use Linux.

Ah, but Vescopa, everyone uses Windows in the future!

Except the Boundless Empire. We use Linux.
Also except the Cylons. They use some wacky OS that urges them to force people to love them at the point of a gun or commit genocide. Windows would destroy them. :p

This. You'll only be able to detect a laser beam being fired ten light-minutes away once it actually arrives, if it travels at the speed of light. A guided missile traveling at .999c leaves you a couple of seconds, and it can maneuver just as fast as you can. Et cetera.


Missiles probably have alot less fuel/delta-vee, however. I'd expect a better thrust-mass ratio, tho. I also cap my missile speed to something that seems reasonable given the range to the target and the enemy's speed, justified as saving fuel for terminal attack maneuvers/etc., and the fact the conversion warhead doubles as the reactor, drawing power from the same fuel mass(also, lower speed makes it easier to turn around and make another run if you miss, etc).

Still you seem to be implying that you only evade once you see the enemy shoot at you - personally, I'm usually doing an evasive random-walk if I even suspect someone might start shooting.


It's entirely one thing to scan an enemy vessel from light minutes away, I have very little problem with that, it does make things simpler. It is entirely another thing though, to have that same sensor detect the (relatively) small mass of missiles, as well as the energy signature of weapons. There's also the fact that lasers are (virtually) invisible until they can hit you, so...

I generally deploy sensor-heavy drone shells. Multi-lightsecond-radius sensor-heavy drone shells.

Plus, yes, your small missile would be easy to spot. It's a small, fast, hot object against a dark, static, cold background.


I've considered actually developing the technology sufficient to do that. Or, if that's too difficult, setting up some kind of field on board my ships that leads the particles people use for FTL comms or sensors to pass right through the ship rather than bouncing off and giving away our position (as that is ordinarily how sensors work -- you send out, say, a radio wave, and it bounces off an object, and the changes in the pattern indicate that there's an object there). Of course, that would leave the ships vulnerable to FTL weapons as well, but if nobody can detect that we're there on FTL sensors, how are they going to fire an FTL weapon? :P

I actually took an ultra-high-sensativity mass detector, mated it with a weak gravity wave generator, and invented Gravitic Resonance Imaging Detection And Ranging, or GRIDAR. Drone-based systems boost it to exospace for FTL.

That's my main sensor system.




Using the Suspension of Disbelief method of analysis we treat that not a FX error but actual documentary footage. It's in the canon therefore we treat is as such. That means that Dr. Saxton's material published in the ICSes is canon, no matter what you think of his motives.


So... you ignore what they're trying to depict in favour of small errors that open the door to absurd leaps of logic, perverting creator intent to service your own ends?

It's also taking one or a handful of examples that are inconsidtent with all other depictions and pretending they're the rule rather than the exception.

If you want to pretend they'd documentaries, documentaries have to be edited, gaps in footage can be substituted with reenactments, etc., all of it also subject to production errors.


But the arguments if that a fanboy is exploiting his position as a writer of canon material to further his own personal agenda, even tho it clashes with the original material. The best response is to ignore it for canon purposes, lest you have to deal with things going FUBAR if/when someone who disagrees with him gets to write their own canon material, and uses the opertunity to the exact same end.

See:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RunningTheAsylum
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmedWithCanon

:D

Also except the Cylons. They use some wacky OS that urges them to force people to love them at the point of a gun or commit genocide. Windows would destroy them. :pWindows hasn't destroyed Mac yet.

No one invades the arctic, but I still wouldn't want to live there :P

No one invades the arctic, but I still wouldn't want to live there :P

Always wanted to visit Ellesmere Island, myself.

In this metaphor Ellesmore Island would be the Ipod, the only part of the Apple-arctic worth visiting. The Ipod is also anywhere with penguins.

Windows hasn't destroyed Mac yet.
Foul heretic! Speak not of that name to me! :mad:

but yes, the Cylons would have a lot of trouble hacking and virusing our networks. They might win, but we'll give 'em a good licking.

In this metaphor Ellesmore Island would be the Ipod, the only part of the Apple-arctic worth visiting. The Ipod is also anywhere with penguins.

Keep your Applesauce off my Magnificent Desolation!


Foul heretic! Speak not of that name to me! :mad:

but yes, the Cylons would have a lot of trouble hacking and virusing our networks. They might win, but we'll give 'em a good licking.

I solve this entirly by physicly isolating my ship systems from my external comms and my entanglement comms, which are in turn isolated from each other. This on top of formidable, multi-redundant defences, plus the whole compatibility problem.

Remember, they can't hack your systems if you unplug the modem. Or even just tell your firewall to ignore all input.

Cool. Oh, Kanuck, you have a TG.

Ah, but Vescopa, everyone uses Windows in the future!

Except the Boundless Empire. We use Linux.

Ah well, in that case there's no need to hack into anybody's computer. They'll all be crashing within a few hours of discovering them anyway!

Shipminds write themselves. We don't blue screen, we blue screen you. ^^

Good thing I have been using my Shipminds since '05, or was it '04?

My ships are part of an Anonymous Hivemind which integrate with human minds as well and shields itself from intrusion through LULZ.

Back in Modern Tech, they used SELinux

My ships are part of an Anonymous Hivemind which integrate with human minds as well and shields itself from intrusion through LULZ.

Back in Modern Tech, they used SELinux

Lulz shields are too vulnerable to troll attacks.

*Broadcasts the Kanuckistani Yiff channel to SC's ships.*

Lulz shields are too vulnerable to troll attacks.

*Broadcasts the Kanuckistani Yiff channel to SC's ships.*Yiff can be censored for sexual content. You need to bait (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FurryComic) and hook.

Yiff can be censored for sexual content. You need to bait (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FurryComic) and hook.

Anonymous doesn't censor anything. :p

And what, pray tell, does stupid 4chan memes have to do with FT RPing?

And what, pray tell, does stupid 4chan memes have to do with FT RPing?They're better written and much more interesting to read.

And what, pray tell, does stupid 4chan memes have to do with FT RPing?

Easy. Solar Communes is a 4chan based nation.

And 4chan has somehow established a place on the Holonet. :eek2:

...I'm not sure I want to hack you guys' information networks now O_O

...I'm not sure I want to hack you guys' information networks now O_O

It's another layer of defense. Infiltrators have a hard time hacking the networks when their brains are dribbling out their ears from the madness. :D

It's another layer of defense. Infiltrators have a hard time hacking the networks when their brains are dribbling out their ears from the madness. :D

Dribbly brains we use as bait to catch aliens who look like Eliza Dushku

So... you ignore what they're trying to depict in favour of small errors that open the door to absurd leaps of logic, perverting creator intent to service your own ends?

It's also taking one or a handful of examples that are inconsidtent with all other depictions and pretending they're the rule rather than the exception.

If you want to pretend they'd documentaries, documentaries have to be edited, gaps in footage can be substituted with reenactments, etc., all of it also subject to production errors.

We know that turbolasers can't be lasers or charged particle beams because turbolasers behave absolutely nothing like either. We see an STL bolt travel to the target and blow it up, in some cases the damage occurs before the bolt strikes. The information describing the mechanism of a turbolaser as a charged particle beam cannot be correct. The AOTC:ICS states;



Energy Weapons

Energy weapons fire invisible beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed. Therefore, targets can explode instants before the "bolt" actually arrives. The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow. A gun's range also depends on its aiming precision and the time-lag required to detect and anticipate target motion at a distance. For example, a massive warship mounts small point-defence guns that trade power for quick aim, while heavier guns are effective against slow, distant, large targets.

We have to rationalize this with what we see on screen. This can be done by presuming that the turbolaser beam first starts at lower power and then ramps up to full power. The low power beam produces the visible bolt which tends to arrive at the target at the same time the turbolaser reaches full power at the ranges seen in the movies. We also know that Star Wars ships use weapons besides turbolasers such as Ion cannons, which actually are charged particle bolts, and mass drivers (the AAT main gun in TPM, the AT-TE main gun in AOTC, those breech loading cannons in ROTS and the ANH novel mentions projectile weapons in use at the battle of Yavin) all of which appear on screen as glowing bolts of light. Thus not all glowing bolts of light we see are actually turbolasers and thus would behave differently. It's not a perfect explanation but it's the best we've got given the current information.

But the arguments if that a fanboy is exploiting his position as a writer of canon material to further his own personal agenda, even tho it clashes with the original material. The best response is to ignore it for canon purposes, lest you have to deal with things going FUBAR if/when someone who disagrees with him gets to write their own canon material, and uses the opertunity to the exact same end.

Here (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/faq.html) is Dr. Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentaries F.A.Q. Here (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/faq.html#1.2.3) is why he wrote the site and here (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/faq.html#1.3.1) is his stance on internet versus debates and his motives specifically. From all the evidence he's doing exactly as he says, trying to give Star Wars a sense of realism with no ulterior motives.

EDIT: More words from the horses' mouth, the SWTC section on combat physics (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/misc.html#combat). And a useful essay by Mike Wong on How to Analyze Sci-Fi. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Analysis.html)

SPACEBOATS ARE SRSBS :|Every time you post, I see someone trying to treat scientifically a universe with SOUND IN SPACE.

There is much lulz in this.

Every time you post, I see someone trying to treat scientifically a universe with SOUND IN SPACE.

There is much lulz in this.

I'm sure there's a convoluted, grasping-at-straws excuse for this in canon too. Obviously, Star Destroyers project an atmosphere around themselves to allow noise to propagate, thus striking fear into the hearts of their enemies.

It's simpler than that. The computers make the noise for the people inside the ships to hear. No more, no less.

I'm pretty sure there's even sound in Star Wars scenes meant to be filmed from space (like the Death Star exploding).

Eh. Sound in space is an acceptable break from reality. I'd rather it wasn't there, but if you have to have sound, I won't be that upset.

There's air on the inside, so you can hear an explosion from the inside. Anyone who's seen a car crash IRL knows that it doesn't make noise unless/until the car your in gets involved, but movies always have the cars making noise no matter where the camera is. Even though the ship is being viewed from the outside, they use the inside sound for the benefit of the audience.

...No, I don't know who 'they' is. Most likely a Tzeentchian cult.

Every time you post, I see someone trying to treat scientifically a universe with SOUND IN SPACE.

There is much lulz in this.

You know that last link I posted dealt with this in the first two paragraphs. Perhaps you should try reading it. But if you're too lazy to click a hyperlink I'll quote the relevant section here;

Why should we analyze sci-fi at all?

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "this is ridiculous. Sci-fi is for entertainment, not analysis.You people need therapy." And you'd be right in one sense; it was made for entertainment, not analysis. There are millions of people out there who watch sci-fi without making any attempt to analyze anything, and that's fine. Hell, when I first got involved in these debates, I was one of those people not taking it seriously and poking fun at anyone who did. But it's ultimately a hobby like any other, and if you're going to seriously play this game about whether a Star Destroyer could kick the Enterprise's ass, then you really have no choice but to analyze things.

Is this crazy? Is it a colossal waste of time? Perhaps. But it's not unique; there are people who write whole books analyzing Shakespeare, after all. And why is that any less ridiculous, when you think about it? Did you know that Shakespeare's plays were considered mass-market fluff in his time? So if you want to throw tomatoes and call us loonies, just make sure you save a few ripe ones for the nearest English literature major.

Am I the only person going to congratulate this thread on it's 100th page? Really? Yes, no, maybe so?

Don't look at me, I only see 38.