NationStates Jolt Archive

And I resent the implication that reliance on massive warships covers for a lack of strategic know how; I'm quite strategic myself...

Yeah, but it's not half as much fun, is it? Consider this: I play with my NS population as the limit. Thus, I could field massive warships, like Imperium designs, and still retain the tactical flexibility, albeit at a reduced pace. However, whilst they carry more weapons, they are always, and I mean always going to be slower and more cumbersome. Can take a beating though.

I've almost been more partial to the Blitzkrieg style of warfare - that's one thing the Wehrmarcht, and more potently the Waffen SS had right*. As such, I field smaller vessels, but still keep a fairly resonable size - it varies between 1000 and 2000 ships depending on deployments, logistics, refits, upgrades, and the like. However, I do field larger vessels, but they serve primarily as capital ships and the like. For example, the BelDragos-class Capital Ship, of which there are five, stand at 3.5km long, with a crew of some 4000 - extensive automation and use of unintelligent (as in, they cannot think for themselves) droids for menial/dangerous tasks allow me to do so.

By fielding smaller vessels, I am able to exploit weaknesses in the enemy defences. Because, much like the Death Star, many capital ships are designed to defend themselves, primarily, from ships of a similar size, right? So, smaller ships will have an easier time of it, in theory.

An example could be, say, one of my Defiant-class escort ships taking on an ISD. The ISD is larger, has more firepower, but is much slower and less maneurverable. By contrast, the Defiant-class is smaller, very much faster and more agile, but lacks the same firepower. This example does not take into account differences in weapons systems or defence systems, because that's how many people who like to godmod like to get out of being damaged (e.g, the SW shields don't stop solid matter as a general rule, whilst the ST shields do), or claim to be able to destroy multiple ships in a single burst (e.g, turbolasers against phasers. You don't know which is better, because neither really exists. You're better off assuming similar power, but delivered in a different way).

In the example, it would, I think, turn into a fair fight in the end, with the outcome unknown because, when it all comes down to it, it's just fiction.

*Please note, my respect for the Wehrmarcht and Waffen SS applies only to the style of offensive warfare. I do not agree with anything that they did otherwise. My primary focus for tactics is the British Army, and various other sources for the navy.

Its perfectly fun; I still factor in tactics and strategy even if my ships are large and cumbersome; but they are mighty and fun and capture the essence of the Imperium :D

In fact, cumbersome ships, particularly specialised ones (IoM ships have one main function) entail more tactics than a few versatile, lightning fast ships because formations and escorts become so vital.

And I think using Blitzkrieg in a tactical naval context is pushing it. What the Wehrmacht did was use high speed and extreme concentration of force to breach the enemy line where it was weak, then smash his infrastructure and remove their ability to fight. The Polish, specifically Stanislaw Maczek and his 10th motorised cavalry "Black Brigade" developed several effective counters which were disregarded by France and re-invented by Russia and the western armies.

Very true; I mean, look how Blitzkrieg faltered against the Russians. Chronosians focus on firepower, numbers and an elite tactical advantage born of generations of war. From the lowliest recruit whos been able to strip a lasgun since he was 10, to the Space Marine Legions which act with decisive force.

I really do prefer ground wars...

As do I.

Snake Eaters is fairly militant as well, which does help, thanks to National Service

And I think you've missed what I was trying to say here: Blitzkrieg ideals can be applied to naval combat, moreso in the FT. Think of it like this: a ship, designed for linebreaking (which I have) smashes a hole in the enemy frontline. A number of smaller ships then flood through, and cause the enemy to fight on two fronts. I never said that it was Blitzkrieg in the exact sense of the word, but based on the idea behind Lightning Warfare.

Of course, larger ships can be tactically advantageous at times, in terms of formation fighting. If that formation breaks down, however, you tend to loose a lot of the advantage such a technique gives you. Ships that focus on one thing are inherently dependent on others for another task, meaning that you could remove one ship and the entire battleplan would fall apart (a tad extreme? Yes. Plausible? Definatley) By employing smaller, more versatile ships, it allows me to have, in my mind, a greater degree of freedom.

There's something about larger ships that just rubs me the wrong way, you hear what I'm saying? It's more focused on people who build over the top (in excess of, I dunno, let's say 20km as a basemark) than those who employ the ships like Star Destroyers, and IoM ships. However, something like, I don't know, a May '06 nation saying,'My 20,000 SSD's pwn you! n00b!" and so on, and so forth, is what ruins them for me. I won't name anyone, but I do have some on the list that many would share.

And Chron, one thing: you don't always need numbers. In fact, and forgive me for this, but applying massive firepower and numbers is, whilst a tactic, is fairly limiting. In fact, it doesn't show, to me, that you are a true tactician. It seems that you like the American way of war: Throw enough money and enough guns at it, and it'll go away :D

Numbers in the form of the Guard; decisive strikes and elite force in the form of the Marines. Thats how my numbers play; wmy infantry range from the masses of low grade infantry, to select squads of elite infantry. Honestly, I don't think you have enough experience with me, or have read enough of my work to actually judge how I RP with my forces, and as a result your left guessing.

Woah! Calm down, yeesh.

Look, it's true to that I have to draw inferences and guess a little. I don't have that much expierence with you. But, I was going on what you, yourself, said:

...focus on firepower, numbers and an elite tactical advantage born of generations of war...

The tactical advantage from years of war, yeah, that's easy to understand. But you can see now where I drew my conclusions. If you want to argue this further, I welcome it. You've got my email address. Once I can log on, we'll do it there.

Which I just explained, numbers tempered with tactics and strategy; one can't simply shephard countless into the furnace of war without aim. I'm more than aware of this; I tend to avoid using stats and numbers anyways, and focus on the story; but what I do embrace is the numbers of the Guard, as well as the elite and tactical Space Marines.

If you come into a war with me thinking I just throw units at you, your definetly wrong :D

There's nothing worse than someone with a 'god-ship' or 'god-weapons' etc. I think that an RP (depending on its setting of course) if much more fun when you feel the danger of death to your ships/crews/men etc.

"The fleet engages the enemy forces."

"But the úber-shielded, super-duper-battle-deathstar the size of ten suns instantly wipes them out."

How boring is THAT?

If you come into a war with me thinking I just throw units at you, your definetly wrong :D

Now you're getting the joke! :D

Anyway, back to topic at hand...

There's nothing worse than someone with a 'god-ship' or 'god-weapons' etc. I think that an RP (depending on its setting of course) if much more fun when you feel the danger of death to your ships/crews/men etc.

"The fleet engages the enemy forces."

"But the úber-shielded, super-duper-battle-deathstar the size of ten suns instantly wipes them out."

How boring is THAT?

Very boring; I personally prefer the bloody, gritty slog of a decent and prolonged engagement...

FT needs more Ground War!

Very boring; I personally prefer the bloody, gritty slog of a decent and prolonged engagement...

FT needs more Ground War!

Hell yeah! :cool:

Blood, gore and lots of shouting!!!

Hell yeah! :cool:

Blood, gore and lots of shouting!!!

That would be me :D

I have plenty of ground forces, including IG and Panzers, but no Space Marines. The whole point of using 40K was, for me, getting a historic military, and while they certainly act historic, and look it up to a point, SM hardly fight historic, not in my way, at least, which is a blend of Germanian barbarism, Wehrmacht tactics and Prussian tradition.

Admittadly, I don't get to show them off as much as I'd like, but I nurse dreams of invading someone with everything in his navy and tearing across contients with a single panzergrenadier regiment...

And I dream of Imperial Crusades bringing compliance to entire nations; bringing mankind into the true fold of Chaos; realising his potential as he sprawls across the Universe; hungering in the name of the True Gods.

Very boring; I personally prefer the bloody, gritty slog of a decent and prolonged engagement...

FT needs more Ground War!

Hence why when I used to play FT, my Xenos tended to specialize in absorbing enough damage with their ships to get some Marines to board, or put their infantry divisions on the ground. They're masters of infantry and close-quarters combat.

But meh. There's just so much wank in the FT department it's not really worth playing anymore. And the techs don't mesh. Star Wars doesn't mesh well with Star Trek, WH40K doesn't mesh with Battletech and so on.

Nothing meshes with ST because everything else is so much more beefy and war orientated :D

Nothing meshes with ST because everything else is so much more beefy and war orientated :D

Yet people treat ST like it's godly or something. According to everything I've ever seen on the show, ships take like.. 1 shot and their shields drop down to 90%. And once a ship's shields are down, it's completely vulnerable.

Heh. Yet people here act like a ST tech ship can just absorb round after round. I've never seen a ST ship with a missile defense system, either, but people tack them on anyway.

Yeah....Whereas something like 40k or SW has things like that, they're built for war. In the case of 40k, its eternal war, war to force the survival of the Imperium. If the Imperium and the Federation, or the Federation and the Empire ever went to war, then both Empire and Imperium have the advantage in experience, resources, numbers...I mean, jump-suit wearing Ensigns against Space Marines? Or Stormtroopers?

It certainly would be interesting to watch, I think I read a fanfic where the Imperium invaded the ST continuity.

Yeah, I honestly can't see ST taking on WH40K or the Empire. I mean, Terminators versus starship crew with phasers and padding?

Then again, seeing as I don't use tech from any preexisting tech base, it doesn't bother me that much.

I played a ground war once many moons ago with a fellow ESUS member who's rebel forces hired us as ground forces. The preliminaries were fun, followed by a great fleet battle and then the ground wars. I have to admit it was the best RP I ever took part in. Loads of fun!

Here is that old RP.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-344859.html

Yeah, I honestly can't see ST taking on WH40K or the Empire. I mean, Terminators versus starship crew with phasers and padding?

Then again, seeing as I don't use tech from any preexisting tech base, it doesn't bother me that much.

Mmmmm....That gives me goosebumps just thinking of the possibilities!

Ah, the hilarity. If it could be recorded and I were to be given popcorn.. the possibilities are endless!

They truly are. Besides, if they showed promise and were willing to serve, I'm sure the Federation would eventually be entirely conquered by the Imperium and 7 of 9 could be merrily dissected by the Mechanicus while each and every alien crew member is systematically sanctioned for extermination :D

Yet people treat ST like it's godly or something. According to everything I've ever seen on the show, ships take like.. 1 shot and their shields drop down to 90%. And once a ship's shields are down, it's completely vulnerable.

Heh. Yet people here act like a ST tech ship can just absorb round after round. I've never seen a ST ship with a missile defense system, either, but people tack them on anyway.

ST is oriented for deep-space exploration, not warfare. Even in the Dominion War, they just modified their existing ships, rather than build major warships.

Sagit is a nation of explorers, and their ships have similarity to the Trek ships, but even they are better suited for combat than ST, both in sheer power (stronger weapons, better shields, faster ships), and tactics (would you REALLY send a bunch of red-shirted guys into possible combat with only hand phasers?).

I, and through me my admirals, generally treat ST as a bunch of overgrown fightercraft, which presents a problem, in that they outrun heavy stuff and are shielded against light stuff, but means it takes quite a few to down a cruiser.

The country I play is a soft power. We buy as much technology as possible. That means we have more technology than other players, not larger militaries, but a quicker ability to absorb technology from other players through constant trade. This means a greater variety of technology for warships. We are also fairly dispersed focusing on living in "city ships" which we use to colonize new asteroid fields, small moons, and oort clouds. The city ships are designed to self-replicate. They usually build escorts for themselves using "replicator factories".

We also are a non-planet bound civilization. This is what most players fight over. We want ex-planet to live on. We use asteroid fields, oort clouds, deep space, and heavily defended dangerous systems to set up our bases. Planets which we use are mainly for trade, games-- like the olympics, and cultural exchange. They are also a source for new sentients to join us. Those who are planet bound need to be "uplifted" become free of gravity wells. Also we can "gift" planets with life on them for huge trade bonuses.

We are cultural and economic imperialists, that means we trade knowledge for resources, and knowledge for knowledge. If we cannot buy technology we steal it. If we cannot steal it we use "diplomacy" with other powers to get it. War is the last option.

We believe our culture is wonderful and should be given to other cultures freely so they can become better. We have no compunction about trying things like what Rome did to the Etruscans-- total absorption of less advanced cultures through cultural exchange.

We do not give away our "resources" instead taking in hard resources. Knowledge is a non-rival good, meaning the more you have, the more your technical base expands. Physical resources are the main source for rivalry. This is why we focus on uninhabitable worlds with large amounts of mining resources, and organic chemicals in oort clouds.

Knowledge is power.
The Imperium covets and uses knowledge quite expertly to manipulate its enemies and those who it would make puppets of. Material resources are easy to come by given the extent of the Imperium; along with tithes and draftings of men from various Imperial worlds. Forge worlds serve to mass-produce the arms and goods of the Imperium.

We're just one giant machine, constantly striving further, continually producing :)

I take a mix of ST, SW, Galatica, and some 40K, to enable me to keep a resonable balance.

I argued once that the main problem with FT is that people refuse to accept technology from things they don't like. The classic example of course being those who don't like ST versus those who don't like SW. I, personally, like both, and thus can provide some degree of neutrality, and also use both. And Chron, you've spoken to me via MSN before, and you know that I am well versed in the Imperium, as well as other 40K tech. Of course, things such as the Nova Cannon, yeah, that sort of thing is difficult to get around.

Also, one thing I think you're all forgetting: It's not about the tech, really. It's about story. If you can RP a SW vs ST battle, and still make it seem good whatever the outcome (see an earlier post of mine for an example), then what does it matter?

The country I play is a soft power.

Explain the term "Soft Power" in greater detail.

We buy as much technology as possible.

Some races, such as myself may not be willing to trade.


They are also a source for new sentients to join us.

If you mean live together on the same worlds, no, it could not happen.

Those who are planet bound need to be "uplifted" become free of gravity wells.

That would cause A war with us. Sskiss are planet dwellers first and foremost. We thrive on our untamed, disease ridden gravity sodden "paradises".

Also we can "gift" planets with life on them for huge trade bonuses.

Now you're talk' en.....

We are cultural and economic imperialists, that means we trade knowledge for resources, and knowledge for knowledge. If we cannot buy technology we steal it. If we cannot steal it we use "diplomacy" with other powers to get it. War is the last option.

Stealing and diplomacy are very difficult methods to acquire new technologies. It would be extremely difficult (to say the least) to steal something from us. This is because of a radical differences in physiology and tech base between your people and mine.

We believe our culture is wonderful and should be given to other cultures freely so they can become better.

We're glad you think so, and how are you going to make us better?

We have no compunction about trying things like what Rome did to the Etruscans-- total absorption of less advanced cultures through cultural exchange.

The Romans destroyed the Etruscans mainly through war.

We do not give away our "resources" instead taking in hard resources. Knowledge is a non-rival good, meaning the more you have, the more your technical base expands.

So far we have everything we need. Also, alliances with other powers greatly expands ones own power base.We value powerful alliances, but only becasue they expand our power base. We do not ally with weaklings.

Physical resources are the main source for rivalry. This is why we focus on uninhabitable worlds with large amounts of mining resources, and organic chemicals in oort clouds.

We do not wage war over resources (unless its life bearing worlds) -- there's plenty. We wage war over territory and or if we feel "threatned".

I have some questions:

I want to base my nation as an Insectoid like race. They have a hivemind and can communicate with each other telepathically. Is this a godmod?

I also wanted to know is it possible for them to build large hive cities and try to colonize planets by having the cities launch into space and have them go towards their destination using STL travel.

I also would like to know, Do I have to follow my NS population. It was meant for humans in the modern times. I think a race of insect aliens would be much larger and would probably be numbering in the billions?

1) Not Godmod

2) Not Godmod

3) Doesn't matter. Population is population whether its humans, droids, or amoebae.

Godular is correct. Your population is the total number of sentients that compose your nation. They will incluse Clones, Droids, Insects, Amoebae, humans, dragons, demons, undead, cute bunnies, AI, ect...

There are many people who attempt to bypass their population limitation by claiming to buy armies of clones/droids and not count them as part of their nation. It is my feeling then they should not be able to use them.

There are also other nations that feel they should not be bound by the same limitations everyone else has and decided they have populations in the range of hundreds of trillions.

This is a blatent Godmod that will be guarenteed to get you ignored and disrespected by the majority of NS.

Please do not follow this path because we always could use more Good RPers.

Soft power is about ideas and their representations. It is the ability to get what you want by attracting and persuading others to follow you.

An example of a soft power action would be to Build Something like a gate to another galaxy and get other players to use it. Another example would be to build something like a Final Encyclopedia and get people to contribute to it.

Another example of soft power would be Kraven's ability to get the evil powers to help him build new environmentally damaging power plants, or for a country to recruit fanatics for their cause.

Generally it is the embodied goals of your culture used to achieve specific ends. For example, a particular culture might represent something and because you represent a certain political ideal -- knowledge, trade, art, free expression, etc. "liberty, democracy, equality" or the "great Muslim brotherhood" you are more likely to get what you want around those areas.

Most cultures believe on some level they are the "best". We believe we are best because of our Final Encyclopedia-- a massive conglomeration of every kind of knowledge available, our emphasis on free trade, our ability to travel the galaxy freely, our biosculptured plants, our artwork, our exploration, etc.

We might talk about how great non-planetary society and offer it to you, but we wouldn't force it on you. It would be kind of like someone asking you about some odd religion.

Joining as in a "Federation" or set of agreements, mutual aid, trade, and exchange of ideas. Some cultures could never join physically.

Actually, it would be better for us to trade with a culture that uses different resource base than us, what we would consider useless might be very valuable to us and the other way around. It would be the Roman boat trick, leave your garbage, and we would leave ours. What was valuable to you, you would take, what was valuable in the junk to us we would take.

Also, because we don't have the same physiology, worlds that were useless to us would be useful to you and the other way around. A human world in a practical sense would have the wrong gravity and environment. This would make it beneficial to share star charts.

40k Translation; Soft Power= The Greater Good.

40k Translation; Soft Power= The Greater Good.
Or perhaps a Sneakier Evil?

I think it is a Validly Gray idea. An excellent tool to mess around with people.

lol...Most people in the NSverse seem never really to utilize this Gray tool...
You yourself Chronosia use this to beat sensless the foolish ones that grovel at your feet throughout the Realms. It is softer but still effective. I'm going to go all bad poetic on yall. Be Warned!

It is like a sand dune...the sand is both soft and hard...it will eventually scour a mountain down...No thats not it...

Hmmm maybe water would fit better here. Everyone is aware that liquid water under normal earth circumsatnces is pretty weak and doesn't really hurt yes? Now that same substance combined with time and gravity will erode the highest mountains back into the sea. It is soft but hard. :D

You've been to the sandy beaches with the sand dunes? You ever notice how the dunes are held in place by a bunch of grass? Tons of material stopped by the mass of a single blade!

OK so there are alot of blades<grumbles to self about> Corny? eh? LOL! Yeah but it make any sense? Oh yeah! Now I remember the riddle. I'll paraphrase 'cause I forgot the words. Anyone have an answer to it go ahead and steal my thunder.

Which is "better" the sickly thin soft reeds, or the great, big, and powerful Oak?

Or perhaps a Sneakier Evil?

I think it is a Validly Gray idea. An excellent tool to mess around with people.

lol...Most people in the NSverse seem never really to utilize this Gray tool...
You yourself Chronosia use this to beat sensless the foolish ones that grovel at your feet throughout the Realms. It is softer but still effective. I'm going to go all bad poetic on yall. Be Warned!

It is like a sand dune...the sand is both soft and hard...it will eventually scour a mountain down...No thats not it...

Hmmm maybe water would fit better here. Everyone is aware that liquid water under normal earth circumsatnces is pretty weak and doesn't really hurt yes? Now that same substance combined with time and gravity will erode the highest mountains back into the sea. It is soft but hard. :D

You've been to the sandy beaches with the sand dunes? You ever notice how the dunes are held in place by a bunch of grass? Tons of material stopped by the mass of a single blade!

OK so there are alot of blades<grumbles to self about> Corny? eh? LOL! Yeah but it make any sense? Oh yeah! Now I remember the riddle. I'll paraphrase 'cause I forgot the words. Anyone have an answer to it go ahead and steal my thunder.

Which is "better" the sickly thin soft reeds, or the great, big, and powerful Oak?

It is better for you to lose your attempts at philosophy. You say nothing in an entire paragraph, using worthless cliches and tired analogies. There is no substance, to borrow a cliche myself, it is sound and fury, signifying NOTHING. You are simply talking with no net addition to the conversation. Remember, he who is wisest speaks least. Which is why I am done speaking to you.

40k Translation; Soft Power= The Greater Good.

Like the Tau? (Tau are meatball sandwiches for 'Nids, Necrons, and SM's BTW)

Seriously though, what Chrono is referring to is the typical acception of "soft power." The Huntarian Alliance would be a soft power for now. Untill they regain their position as the Huntarian Republic, they're very soft.

The ONLY reason why they one the system battles was because they had much more powerful allies than themselfs.

picky side note: 1st DS was ~140km. Second one was ~160km

Even pickier side note, DS1 was 160km in diameter, DS2 was 900km in diameter.

Like the Tau? (Tau are meatball sandwiches for 'Nids, Necrons, and SM's BTW)

Seriously though, what Chrono is referring to is the typical acception of "soft power." The Huntarian Alliance would be a soft power for now. Untill they regain their position as the Huntarian Republic, they're very soft.

The ONLY reason why they one the system battles was because they had much more powerful allies than themselfs.

Um, hate to be picky as well, but the Tau's central belief is 'For the Greater Good'. So, not like the Tau, but The Tau.

And yes, we know. I am a Tau, SM and Eldar player (I like the different styles, so sue me.)

It is better for you to lose your attempts at philosophy. You say nothing in an entire paragraph, using worthless cliches and tired analogies. There is no substance, to borrow a cliche myself, it is sound and fury, signifying NOTHING. You are simply talking with no net addition to the conversation. Remember, he who is wisest speaks least. Which is why I am done speaking to you.
ooc:
Hardly...I see. You still mad about that IC stuff a week ago?
So we don't exist for each other fine by me!

My point was that People tend to emphasis Raw physical power as oppose to acting on softer powers. i.e. Respect, Culture, Philosphy, Religion. Your Lords of Chaos GAMES are based in part on these IDEAS. Ideas are not hard/physical things now are they? That was it no more. I tried to explain by parable and metaphor because it makes a deeper sense. You see this fact proven before you. That is not philosphy it is observation and logical deduction. Well maybe it is.

My arguments are generally drawn from actual things: observation, historical event etc...You are invited to ignore them if that is your wish. Continue building castles in the sky. Imagination is a wonderful thing.

Soft power is about ideas and their representations. It is the ability to get what you want by attracting and persuading others to follow you.

But what if the other guy thinks its a good idea anyway? I mean, when I go to the store to get something I need, I initiate the buying process -- the salesman sells me nothing....

An example of a soft power action would be to Build Something like a gate to another galaxy and get other players to use it. Another example would be to build something like a Final Encyclopedia and get people to contribute to it.

I do not understand why so many are interested to going off into other galaxies when the one I'm in is largely unihabited with still plenty of romping room.AS for this "Final Encyclopedia" of yours we would only (if we wanted to, that is) give you some rather basic data on us. After all, we are not stupid -- the more knowledge you have on us, the more power you can potentialy have to be used against us.

Yes, we know knowledge is a weapon....

Another example of soft power would be Kraven's ability to get the evil powers to help him build new environmentally damaging power plants, or for a country to recruit fanatics for their cause.

"environmentally damaging power plants"? This Kraven character doesn't sound too bright to me.

Generally it is the embodied goals of your culture used to achieve specific ends. For example, a particular culture might represent something and because you represent a certain political ideal -- knowledge, trade, art, free expression, etc. "liberty, democracy, equality" or the "great Muslim brotherhood" you are more likely to get what you want around those areas.

Tell me something.... Would you really want to be like Sskiss? This is why, being significantly alien in form and overall mindset we generally do not bother wasting our time convicing anyone else to "be like us" -- because no other species can ever really become like us.

Most cultures believe on some level they are the "best". We believe we are best because of our Final Encyclopedia-- a massive conglomeration of every kind of knowledge available, our emphasis on free trade, our ability to travel the galaxy freely, our biosculptured plants, our artwork, our exploration, etc.

Okay, I can agree with you here to some extent. We probably think we are the best because we've been around for awhile, are physically superior, waste nothing, live in harmony with our environment, are a well ordered cohesive and well structured civilization and possess blind devotion to our race as a whole.

We might talk about how great non-planetary society and offer it to you, but we wouldn't force it on you. It would be kind of like someone asking you about some odd religion.

We are not interested. We would probably see such cultures and species as decadent and weak, fit only as cattle....

Joining as in a "Federation" or set of agreements, mutual aid, trade, and exchange of ideas. Some cultures could never join physically.

You are talking about alliances of one sort or another. Yes, we are part of such an alliance. It only makes sense to do so for mutual protection -- "safety in numbers" and all that.

Actually, it would be better for us to trade with a culture that uses different resource base than us, what we would consider useless might be very valuable to us and the other way around. It would be the Roman boat trick, leave your garbage, and we would leave ours. What was valuable to you, you would take, what was valuable in the junk to us we would take.

Also, because we don't have the same physiology, worlds that were useless to us would be useful to you and the other way around. A human world in a practical sense would have the wrong gravity and environment. This would make it beneficial to share star charts.

We could consider this.

Im personally using a slightly modified Brinn (or Uplift) universe tech, although many people dont seem to know what that is, much to their loss, 'cause theyre excellent books :P

Anyway, the Tandu ships are basically very fast, pack a good punch, but lack armour. Most good sized capitol ships of other nations could probobly punch a hole in them with one of their mid-sized cannons after one or two shots.
The weapons are fairly standard, aside from the probability cannons, which are potentially great fun ;)
When the PC's score a direct hit on a ship, it vanishes completly, transported to a kind of 'limbo space'. Of course, this only works if the ships OTHER defences have been disabled first. If the cannon does not score a 'direct' hit, the interferance can cause interesting things to happen, usually bits of one ship getting switched with another, similar, ship from another dimension.
The other use of reality distorters by the Tandu is as transport. Basically the Episiarch, a really powerful psychic client of the Tandu, can warp reality in a number of ways, including, but not limitied to, thinking people out of existance and transporting ships over vast distances.
The problem is that moving this way has some serious risks, like falling into that limbo dimension. The good side it gives almost instant access to nearly anywhere in the Galaxy.
Of course, this is all dependant on the Episiarch being a in a good mood at the time and NOT purposfully thinking the other ships in a fleet out of existance, which can and most likely will happen.

This is an example of one excellent Verse that is not well represented in NS. The most prevalent Future Tech are the variations of our MT Real Life ones and the ever present Star Wars, Star Trek, and Warhammer worlds. In these worlds humans are everywhere...we are also pretty powerful.

In Brin's vision we are behind everyone else in the 5 galaxies. In Brin's Upliftverse...we are a weak powerI personally find the idea that humans are insignificant players in the great games a delightful idea. We fight and we lose to the greater powers...no super great star empire of Humans at all! We are forced to utilize our brains because our "tech, infrastructure, etc..." are woefully inadequate. LOL.
SOFT POWER is the only real power left to us.

Brin's Uplift Webpage (http://www.davidbrin.com/upliftbooks.html)

The best soft power plays are the ones where the other guy thinks its a good idea to do anyways. Figuring out what the other guy wants before you start is part of the game.

Ah, commonii nature (we are a bit post-human), we want to go where there is no purpose going, other than exploring. To travel and find new things is a major motivation for our culture. Not to live there, we can live anywhere there are proper elemental resources, big rocks (asteroids) and clouds of organic matter (comets) but to explore. We even want to world walk in other parallel time lines eventually. Hyperspace variants provide a very nice source of energy, particles of light travel many times faster there and are much more energetic...

Be careful, where there is genetic engineering, there is the opportunity to make creatures just like you. A sufficiently advanced AI or a piece of wetware-- biocomputer can build any body it wants. You may run into a culture that decides it likes the way you are and becomes just like you...

We have some junk we haven't figured out how to get rid of. They may not really be junk, but the other players have a hard time accepting they exist-- 10 high capacity airship to orbit cargo blimps with ion engines and high capacity heat shielding $100 a ton to orbit. 1 R. Buckminster Fuller, Cloud 9, one mile round blimp tensegrity spheres (real design)-- other players want to destroy it, 1 nuclear damper affects the strong and weak forces in nuclear bombs-- unacceptable, 10 tons of canisters of genetically engineered Radiococcus Radiodurans-- a genetically engineered bacterium designed to process radioactive waste from the surroundings and excrete it as gatherable form-- nuclear bioremediation. 10 tons of fast acting petroleum and petroleum based products-- (plastic) eating bacterium. Send me your stuff you can't use. (Unacceptable in game play).

Our star maps are ready to trade...

We would like an entry for the final encyclopedia. Knowledge helps us grow. Send any other technology you think would interest us. It would satisfy our curiousity. We would give you the location of one planet habitable by your species for it.

Accuse me of not valueing "soft power", but some of us like rampaging along, burning all who oppose and having a binge. That's way I have a posleen puppet and a Germanian world view.

NS is both a nation simulator and roleplaying game at once, at no time is it a wargame. This does not mean, of course, that war can't or shouldn't factor into either roleplay or nation simulation, just that the endless repetition of war should not be the only factor.

For one you've the fact war is as boring as diplomacy when it happens every five minutes and the effects of said war last about two minutes till the defeated nation builds back up and readies for more. There's really no point to it then, all war looses its purpose when it, in the end, doesn't really matter.

Two you've got to remember this is about roleplay really, and war roleplay gets boring, atleast it does around here when numbers get spammed and ships blow up without touching on the things actually affected by war (people, economies, ect.) so what do we have but a bunch of warmongering psschophants? Nothing really, that's the problem.

Also ya got the problem of, realistically, not having any friends. The bad guy waring nations do not make friends in the real world, and in the nationstates forum they don't either, here maybe, but not in any place where the universe is grounded more in reality.

Again not to say at the end of my little rant here war is bad, just looses its point is all when that is the only response people have, making it a bad read to boot.

*rubs temples* You people.

Sereiously, you could argue about soft and hard powers for as long as you want, but the same thing will happen - you're just going to end up repeating your points over and over again until it becomes so tired and haggard that it cannot stand up on it's own as a good point.

Just agree to disagree, and let it rest like that. Different people want to play NS in different ways, that's just how it goes. Some want war, some want peace. Some want to rampage and destroy anything in their path, others want to be explore, trade, and other such things. Of course, there is no reason you cannot combine both of these aspects to create a fairly balanced nation e.g. one that values peace, but it extremely xenophobic towards one specific race.

Yar. Our nature is to kill everything, and that which can't be killed is figured out so that it can. Soft powers are all well and good, but, when you get right down to it, they tend to interact with other soft powers more.

mmm, do I ge to ask what you guys are talknig about, and whats FT? :(
Would be nice if someone could PM me details or something instead of a flame here about me being a newbie ... it doesnt take a genius to work that one out ;)

Accuse me of not valueing "soft power", but some of us like rampaging along, burning all who oppose and having a binge. That's way I have a posleen puppet and a Germanian world view.

Hey who said a good 'ole horde raiding and pillaging wasn't fun?:p

I have to admit being a "bad guy" can be loads of fun...like a Viking! But Viking barbarians and many nomads would at least attempt trading before sending in the longboats and hordes of crazy orcs in shiny jack boots to stomp a can of wup ass, burn everything to the ground, and steal the gold, goats, sheep, cattle, horses and wimmenfolk. Most of the time, it wasn't really worth the effort.

The Germanic tribes "negotiated" with the stinking Romans to cross the Rhine! They provided decent auxilaries before turning on the Empire...well before the Empire turned on them! Many of the Frankish kinglets were "loyal" grunts protecting the borders of Rome from their cousins...

LOL...the "good guys" preformed all sorts of errr...less than fully "nice" things to the other peoples. It was gray no more. It was RL no right no wrong all a matter of who was on which side of the pointy sticks.

Ah as to your stinking Posey hordes! LOL...you just wait.

Oh yeah FT means Future Tech...the dividing line between Tech Epochs is still pretty fuzzy. Each game will have to decide what is and isn't allowable. Over half of Commonii's ideas are at least loosely based on real life techs but are declared by many to be "unacceptable" <shrug> just don't RP with him. I like the goofy ideas...they make internal sense.

Ayup! We will eventually just begin to repeat ourselves. A difference of opinion that is likely to remain. Here is a nice annoying saying for you:
You can lead a horse to water...
:p

Yar. Our nature is to kill everything, and that which can't be killed is figured out so that it can. Soft powers are all well and good, but, when you get right down to it, they tend to interact with other soft powers more.

China was and is a "soft power" nation...they usually didn't give a hoot about anything outside their sphere of influence. They tended to view themselves as the center of the world. Indeed, they were one of the most powerful economic and military powers for much of their history. I wouldn't say that they only interact with other soft powers. If you read up on their history you'll see that they "bribed" the barbarians of the Northern and Western Plains [north and central asie] with favorable trades of silk, porcelan, etc..and "brides" for horses and armies to defend the borders.

You are right H. T.
Soft Power is moot if there is no Hard Power to back it up!

Compare the history of Switzerland to say...Luxemburg.
You see the problems inherent in a weak power?

I would prefer to emulate the Swiss in the FT verses...until I can imitate the Chinese! :p

mmm, do I ge to ask what you guys are talknig about, and whats FT? :(
Would be nice if someone could PM me details or something instead of a flame here about me being a newbie ... it doesnt take a genius to work that one out ;)

FT, my friend, is Future Tech. Essentially, it's all about spaceships, lasers and other such stuff that is considered implausible or impossible in the modern world e.g Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, etc, etc.

This thread is mainly about arguements within FT - there's lot's of 'em, because no one really agrees completley on how it should be done.

As for what we are talking about currently, it's the benefits of being a 'hard' or 'soft' power nation. Hard power nations are ones that prefer force of arms over diplomacy and the like, whilst soft power nations are the opposite of these. That's it in broad terms, of course.

My biggest complaint about warplay (at any tech level) is that there are no consequences. A warlike nation can go :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: one day, and repeat it the next with no weakning of his forces. Some players will RP the consequences, but many of them just ignore them.

As for hard vs soft power, Sagit is interested in exploration, not warfare. We have powerful weapons to defend ourselves, but we prefer negociation.

My biggest complaint about warplay (at any tech level) is that there are no consequences. A warlike nation can go :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: one day, and repeat it the next with no weakning of his forces. Some players will RP the consequences, but many of them just ignore them.


You're right in that respect, but it should be noted that a decent RP'er will make sure that he shows weakening of his forces. It's only the godmodders and occassional idiots who do that. Newcomers can be excused for a time, as they are learning the ropes.

My biggest complaint about warplay (at any tech level) is that there are no consequences. A warlike nation can go :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: one day, and repeat it the next with no weakning of his forces. Some players will RP the consequences, but many of them just ignore them.

As for hard vs soft power, Sagit is interested in exploration, not warfare. We have powerful weapons to defend ourselves, but we prefer negociation.
One of the reasons I founded Galaxy II, you should check it out. A more tightly regulated FT environment while retaining the standard NS diversity of techs, species and a mild amount of uber-ness.

Accuse me of not valueing "soft power", but some of us like rampaging along, burning all who oppose and having a binge. That's way I have a posleen puppet and a Germanian world view.

Finished Gust Front yet?

The more respected RPers do RP the hit that they take froma a defeat, or even the occupation of their lands (like whenever Kraven ass-kicks somebody).

Since Balrogga linked me here, I guess Ill post this here. Its not purely FT, but it is related to the shrinking FT community:

NS is starting to look slow to me.
A few weeks ago, I posted an ad thread for a forum I run on II.
I checked a few minutes later, thinking it would be on the second page.
It was at number three.
A year ago, my ad thread would have been on page two or three.

To my mind, this is due to a certain lack of newb-friendlyness on NS. Look at the front page, and you can bet that, if you filter out the internal affairs, Earths, and storefronts, only one or two threads are going to be 'Open'. So many threads now are marked as 'Closed' or 'ATTN: (so and so)', which is just as good as 'closed' since it seems to imply that only (so and so) is welcome in the thread.
Of course, many would say that NS now has 'quality over quantity', but since when was II about quality? II was about having FUN. If you want quality, go post in one of the vampire RP's on NationStates.
When I first posted on II, the goal was apparently to pump out as many posts as possible in at least a dozen threads. At that point you would no doubt have offended SOMEBODY, and would be in a war. This war would culimnate in a brief arguement followed by somebody either getting their ass kicked or being ignored.
Sure, quality is good, but if II stays like this for long, people are going to be RPing with themselves.

So, I think that we should do something about it.
A few people, and Im willing to help in this, need to get together and start making 'newb friendly' RP's. Relativly short posts, a couple of paragraphs maybe, enough to give a decent plot, but not to scare off new posters. We should also avoid any tags aside from 'FT/MT' and 'OPEN'. FT/MT is obviously important because without it its kinda hard to tell if an RP is set in your time period. OPEN is important because some threads are very foot at implying that only certain people are welcomed.

NS also needs to regain some of its sense of fun. Those 'Destroy the UN!' and 'I declar war on the world!' threads may well have been annoying, but they were part of the II culture, and an important part of the charecter of the forum. of course, theyre gone now, but if they appear again, I would ask the mods not to close them.
Why?
Because the state of semi-anarchy was important to International Incidents! You could do anything you wanted, no matter how silly. Sure, some people would yell at you, but a lot of NS had an appreciation for this sort of humour. I remember the old 'godmod wars' which sprang up occaisonally, and the arguements about how to out-godmod your foes which followed.

In its present state, II is not much different from NS. Sure, its more focused on 'national RP' than the charecter RP's of NS, but seriously, allow yourself to make a joke thread now and then. Its good for the forum and certainly makes it seem more friendly!

Finished Gust Front yet?

Finished Hell's Faire

Since Balrogga linked me here, I guess Ill post this here. Its not purely FT, but it is related to the shrinking FT community:

NS is starting to look slow to me.
[A few weeks ago, I posted an ad thread for a forum I run on II.
I checked a few minutes later, thinking it would be on the second page.
It was at number three.
A year ago, my ad thread would have been on page two or three.

To my mind, this is due to a certain lack of newb-friendlyness on NS. Look at the front page, and you can bet that, if you filter out the internal affairs, Earths, and storefronts, only one or two threads are going to be 'Open'. So many threads now are marked as 'Closed' or 'ATTN: (so and so)', which is just as good as 'closed' since it seems to imply that only (so and so) is welcome in the thread.

True. I think that too few RPs are made for the sake of being RPs these days.

Of course, many would say that NS now has 'quality over quantity', but since when was II about quality? II was about having FUN. If you want quality, go post in one of the vampire RP's on NationStates.

Exactly. It's a game, and we need to remember that.

When I first posted on II, the goal was apparently to pump out as many posts as possible in at least a dozen threads. At that point you would no doubt have offended SOMEBODY, and would be in a war. This war would culimnate in a brief arguement followed by somebody either getting their ass kicked or being ignored.
Sure, quality is good, but if II stays like this for long, people are going to be RPing with themselves.

Well, you're not describing utopia, and I've come to enjoy the elborate external planning these days. But yeah, I think if we enjoy ourselves and write passable posts, that's a reward in itself.

So, I think that we should do something about it.
A few people, and Im willing to help in this, need to get together and start making 'newb friendly' RP's. Relativly short posts, a couple of paragraphs maybe, enough to give a decent plot, but not to scare off new posters. We should also avoid any tags aside from 'FT/MT' and 'OPEN'. FT/MT is obviously important because without it its kinda hard to tell if an RP is set in your time period. OPEN is important because some threads are very foot at implying that only certain people are welcomed.

Indeed. We need a way for newbie's to settle in. If wank were tolerated in intro threads, wank would all but vanish from real threads.

NS also needs to regain some of its sense of fun. Those 'Destroy the UN!' and 'I declar war on the world!' threads may well have been annoying, but they were part of the II culture, and an important part of the charecter of the forum. of course, theyre gone now, but if they appear again, I would ask the mods not to close them.

Well, if they play fair, why the hell not!

Why?
Because the state of semi-anarchy was important to International Incidents! You could do anything you wanted, no matter how silly. Sure, some people would yell at you, but a lot of NS had an appreciation for this sort of humour. I remember the old 'godmod wars' which sprang up occaisonally, and the arguements about how to out-godmod your foes which followed.

See above.

In its present state, II is not much different from NS. Sure, its more focused on 'national RP' than the charecter RP's of NS, but seriously, allow yourself to make a joke thread now and then. Its good for the forum and certainly makes it seem more friendly!

I mostly agree with you. NS is a complex forum, but that doesn't mean it should be a hard one.

Since Balrogga linked me here, I guess Ill post this here. Its not purely FT, but it is related to the shrinking FT community

That is what I made this Thread for, Arguments and Discussions. Your post certainly fits into that description.


Sure, quality is good, but if II stays like this for long, people are going to be RPing with themselves.

The funny thing is we have seen people doing a closed RP between puppets before and it was hilarious, they thought the rest of NS didn't know it was a sock puppet party.

One thing you mentioned was making it easy for new players to participate in the RPs by making the posts smaller in that Thread. I know what you mean because if you see a post that is about 6 pages in Microsoft it really does intimidate them.

One thing you did not mention is players that have been around for a long time also need to get off their pedestal and crawl in the muck they call Newbie RPs, not only to let them know who you are (unimportant) but to provide an example of how to play instead of [yelling/dictating] RPing etiquette at them (most important).

This means adjusting your own style to allow the new players to play. This means allowing yourself to be beaten if they are using well thought out ideas. This means teaching.

One thing you mentioned was making it easy for new players to participate in the RPs by making the posts smaller in that Thread. I know what you mean because if you see a post that is about 6 pages in Microsoft it really does intimidate them.

I personally disagree. I tend to wax eloquent at times, but it doesn't mean we should make posts shorter. Easier to read, yes. But having 100 one-line posts is probably harder to read than a single hundred-line post.

I'd prefer to see better formatting, and the like, among people who jump into these RPs. Absurdly long posts for something that doesn't need them - someone beaming down to the surface, for instance, is silly. But asking for smaller posts is in no way the answer.

One thing you did not mention is players that have been around for a long time also need to get off their pedestal and crawl in the muck they call Newbie RPs, not only to let them know who you are (unimportant) but to provide an example of how to play instead of [yelling/dictating] RPing etiquette at them (most important).

Mmm. I think one of the problems we see is that no-one wants to help the new, new, newbie. And, to be frank, who wants to? Sure, the well-written, easygoing, willing to learn guy is someone everyone wants to get along with. The poorly-written, insulting, and downright stupid guy is the one that is often shunned.

This means adjusting your own style to allow the new players to play. This means allowing yourself to be beaten if they are using well thought out ideas. This means teaching.

Right. I enter in newbie RPs on occasion, and create a few open RPs of my own. But trying to teach those who do not want to learn is impossible. Teaching by example, I feel, is the best thing to do.

Indeed. We need a way for newbie's to settle in. If wank were tolerated in intro threads, wank would all but vanish from real threads.

....what? That's possible the most.. random, or unthought-out statement I've seen for quite some time. Letting people wank in intro threads, and saying they won't do it in other threads is like saying.. It's like saying if you give a toddler an icecream when he has a tantrum, he won't do the same thing tomorrow.

I believe helpful guiding against wankery would be in order - don't tolerate, simply point out what they did wrong, say so, and then kindly ask them to edit it, without any shouting. But simply letting people run rampant over intro threads to satisfy their urge for wankery will not change anything.



To my mind, this is due to a certain lack of newb-friendlyness on NS. Look at the front page, and you can bet that, if you filter out the internal affairs, Earths, and storefronts, only one or two threads are going to be 'Open'. So many threads now are marked as 'Closed' or 'ATTN: (so and so)', which is just as good as 'closed' since it seems to imply that only (so and so) is welcome in the thread.
Of course, many would say that NS now has 'quality over quantity', but since when was II about quality? II was about having FUN. If you want quality, go post in one of the vampire RP's on NationStates.

Would you care to point out the way that quality and fun cancel each other out? They don't! More newbie-friendliness is good. But abandoning the improvement in RP that's been seen over the past few years for the sake of improving activity puts us back to square one - the square where people bitch about poor RP and constant overrunning of RPs by the self-same newbies.

We can't just say "hey, well, screw post quality and story. Let's go back to bashing each other over the head with massive armies and insane amounts of poor-quality posts.". Well, you could. But I doubt anyone would listen. Helping newbies out is one thing. Stepping off your pedastal to crawl in the muck, so to speak, is acceptable. But making more muck? Isn't the whole goal of the 'teaching' thing to get rid of that?

Of course, many would say that NS now has 'quality over quantity', but since when was II about quality?

You realise you just insulted the entire II forum, right? Rising standards in II are leading to slightly longer turnarounds between posts because people aren't happy [or for that matter even really allowed] to simply rattle off streams of one-sentence first-person posts. This is good, and something that should be encouraged. I have no idea why you want to increase the number of ass-tastic RPs that just clog up the forum and make it hard to find the good ones, but it's an aggressively terrible idea and were it to happen in two months you'd be back here wishing it was like the good old days when there wasn't so much spam.

Bad quality does not improve any forum. We want to encourage good players, not just tell mediocre ones to not bother improving because it's not like this is the good RP forum anyway. I'd think the various people who have defended II as a roleplay forum over the years would want to have words with you over that.

Newsflash: the good old days were rarely as good as you remember them.

I'd argue that the biggest problem for newbies is actually established players trying to annex their nation when they've only posted twice. It's hardly the best way to get started, after all.

NS also needs to regain some of its sense of fun. Those 'Destroy the UN!' and 'I declar war on the world!' threads may well have been annoying, but they were part of the II culture, and an important part of the charecter of the forum. of course, theyre gone now, but if they appear again, I would ask the mods not to close them.

We will. They were almost universally trolling by existing players registering new nations just to get some badly-spelled spam in, and have no place here. You remember them fondly because you don't remember them well enough.

Just a point, the first three quotes in HT's post was by myself, the rest were posted by DGNT.

Easy omission that is forgiven.

Nova Boozia:
Thanks for mostly agreeing.

Balrogga:
I play Russia in a lot of alt-hist RP's, I have experience with losing fights >_>
Damn 1850's >_<
But yes, your points are good. I dont think that simply shortening posts is going to be seriously detrimental to the II forum, and a few people could use a little ego-popping.
I am aware of the hypocracy.

HST:
I said newb-friendly, not n00b-ish :P
While, yes, one-liners arent good, I would advise taking a look at the front page. Refresh every ten seconds or so.
In 2005, you can bet that you would see at least five or so topics that were either new or bumped via an RP post.
Now hardly anything changes.
If we want to use the muck metaphore, you need soil to grow roses. It isnt pretty, and you tend to get assorted unpleasant invertibrates, but growing roses without dirt is a challenge, and hydroponics just isnt the same :P
At this point and time, NS lacks muck. Its muck level is something like .00154, to apply an arbitrary numeral to a metaphorical and totaly imaginary thing.
Hence, as a newbie, somebody comes into the NS forum and sees all these topics with 'CLOSED' and assorted other tags which he/she has no idea the meaning of, and then clicks on a thread which is invitingly labled 'OPEN', whereupon that person is greeted with a post longer than your average bear.

GMC:
As above, Im not wishing for one-liners, Im asking for shorter posts, that dont make people go, "Holy crap its like a mini-novel! I could never write up to that standard!". Frankly, your post there reeks of the elitist 'Were better than anybody else' culture you get in the, ah, 'hardcore' RP community, where a post shorter than a (non-double spaced) page in MS word is worthy of a ban.
Im saying we SHOULD tell mediocre players to improve, but do you seriously think that telling them, right from the start, that they MUST write giant posts, complete with colourful descriptions of their charecters hat?
I know that I couldnt have done that in 2003. I could barely squeeze out two paragraphs back then. It took me at least a year to get to the point where I could do better than that.
As to the spam...I liked the spam. As I said, the spam was part of II's charecter, and it produced some fun RP's. Operation Righteous Asskicking? It was something similar to that, anyway.
Of course, seeing as you are a moderator, you are in no way obligated to listen to what I say, and you most likely wont. Because what you decide for the forum is whats best.

Its some peoples style to write giant posts, and they shouldn't have to cut them down just to make them managable for newbs. I wasn't very good when I started out, but I got better and it helped me improve my writing as a whole. We can't discriminate against people who want to do well, anymore than we can against people who vomit up one line posts.

Thats just not how it should work. We ought to help those with talent to develop it, to forge the next generation of decent RP. When I was first around as FT, there were people throwing around massive posts in the Shivan Wars and that, for me, was something to aspire to.

Im not saying that we should descriminate against people who write giant posts, Im saying that a few topics that dont have uber-long intro posts would be a good idea. Giant posts are fine, but I dont think they should compose the entirity of the forum, because when they do, you scare off potential RPers.

Yeah but its not our place to tell people the size or quality of posts they can throw up. Even now theres relatively short posts being put up, even thoguh some people might choose to use larger, more ornate posts. In the end its not for us to decide or dictate how long a post should be, or how many short posts there should be to a long one.

Its a matter of taste

Its a matter of taste

Indeed it is.

I should clairify a few things.

The intro post by it's very nature should be large. It needs to contain most of the background needed for other players to participate. If you skimp on that detail, you remove elements of the basic RP that are crutial. That cannot be allowed to happen.

I was referring to the miles if internal posts that might scare away potential new players. I was also referring to specific Threads set up for new players. It is the adjusting content for your target audience concept I am trying to point out.

When you start a learning Thread, you make your posts easy for the student to emulate, makinf each subsequent one harder to guide them and to teach then. By the time you are on the 4th or 5th page, they are hard at work typing detailed posts. Chronosia worked with TFU and achieved this very thing I am suggesting. The post size adjustment would only be for that Thread and for the purposes of teaching the player by progressive examples. Good teachers always start out easy and get progressively harder instead of just tossing them in the deep end and hoping they can swim.

And to build upon what Balrogga just said, I'd like to point out several good rp'ers here on NS from whom others (new people, or old people in need of role play help) can learn from.

I defer to this list:

Chronosia
Coreworlds
No Endorse
Unified Sith
Automagfreak
Balrogga
Parlim


Its just a few of the handful of players who are a good reference to those who wish to learn from others. Just search their names and find some of their posts, you'll find a lot of good examples.

GMC:
As above, Im not wishing for one-liners, Im asking for shorter posts, that dont make people go, "Holy crap its like a mini-novel! I could never write up to that standard!".

To be honest, when I first saw long RP posts I thought 'I hope one day I'll be able to do that too,' not 'I'll never be that good so I might as well not bother trying.' It's a more productive attitude, and leads to you actually achieving things rather than just moping because you've decided you're useless and can't do it.

Let's throw in the Runaway Train quote, shall we?

Buck: 'I can't do it, I can't do it!'
Manny: 'You don't know what you can do if you try!'

Frankly, your post there reeks of the elitist 'Were better than anybody else' culture you get in the, ah, 'hardcore' RP community, where a post shorter than a (non-double spaced) page in MS word is worthy of a ban.

Why? Long doesn't mean good, after all. I've read novel-sized fanfics before that were absolutely awful and laughable beyond belief. I didn't look at them and think I couldn't every write something that size, I looked at them and knew I could do better because what all those words were saying was still junk.

As a player adds to their nation, their posts will naturally become longer because they have more information they want to get across. As you build up detail from the very basic outline everyone starts out with, you'll get more ideas about things that could happen around what you're describing.

Maybe one day you'll decide, say, on your nation's climate and the kind of environment it has, and have your hero look out the window at the sweeping fields of sunflowers blowing in the wind under the blue sky rather than just walking down the hall to the briefing like you would have before. Rather than just saying your tanks move out to attack, you'll talk about the sad feeling he has as he watches those beautiful fields he played in as a child ploughed up into featureless mud.

Again, newsflash: all good RPers were once bad RPers, but they got better because their bad RP was not tolerated and their good RP encouraged, and their posts got longer because over time they got to have more to post about. People who want to improve their RP will look at more detailed RP and be inspired by it, not put off.

Im saying we SHOULD tell mediocre players to improve, but do you seriously think that telling them, right from the start, that they MUST write giant posts, complete with colourful descriptions of their charecters hat?

No, but neither should we just say 'ok, you're bad so we won't expect you to follow basic RP etiquette or want to write well.' The attitude that says we should act like every new player is a moron who needs to be insulated from any criticism and protected from good examples is incredibly condescending and rude. If they stink, they need to know so they can improve.

We certainly shouldn't tell established roleplayers to reign in their posting because they're scaring the newbies. Punishing people for being good is as idiotic as a business closing down its most profitable stores because they're making the unprofitable ones look bad. It makes far more sense to hold up the profitable stores as an example for the unprofitable ones to work towards.

Also, the quality of a post is defined by things like description, atmosphere, verisimilitude and so on, not length. If someone doesn't know how to RP, their post could fill a shelf when printed out and it would still suck.

I know that I couldnt have done that in 2003. I could barely squeeze out two paragraphs back then. It took me at least a year to get to the point where I could do better than that.

So? Some people come here already able to write long posts. That doesn't mean they can write good posts. Nor does an inability to write multi-thousand-word posts make someone a bad roleplayer.

As to the spam...I liked the spam. As I said, the spam was part of II's charecter, and it produced some fun RP's.

Spam isn't part of any forum's character except the spam forum. Thankfully.

Of course, seeing as you are a moderator, you are in no way obligated to listen to what I say, and you most likely wont.

Listening to you is a whole wide world apart from being compelled to agree with what you're saying.

/sigh. Not this again. Firstly, I have a request. That being, if you want to debate this more, that we shift it to msn. That's primarily because it's coming down to assumptions of character, or somesuch. Which aren't really getting the thread anywhere.

This place is fine, as you chose to start a debate on the proper way to tell a story.


Uhm, NS is freeform. That's all I really need to say to justify my existence in this forum as it pertains to what you just said.

Not entirely. This roleplay universe still exists under one limiting concept. NS itself. Your nation, whether you like it or not, still exists under the limitations of the age and population of the NS nation you are roleplaying will. NS universe = based on the game, and hence that is a justifiable limit on the freeform roleplay that as far as I can tell by your 'old nations can claim to have more population' comment, you at least somewhat agree with, or accept.

Nope. A story is not limited by such simple constructs, its only confines are those of the authors imagination. However, if we were to limit NS based on the system you suggest, then almost everything people RP is impossible, as the simplistic NS game is not built with the idea of FT in mind.

And I said being older means you have more men to throw into the grinder as far as war is concerned. The only reason why I generally adhere to size limitations is for balance purposes when I am RPing with other people who use a more restrained system than I do. Yet, this doesn't stop anyone from claiming a pan-galactic empire with a warfleet dwarfing that of the Empire, as long as the plot calls for it and it's not an exercise in "Harhar, I own j00."

If I wanted to impose restrictions, I'd bring up those dopey "economic calenders" (nevermind they don't respect if you're communist, have no concept of money, totally ignore the story of a nation, etc)


When you talk about research, you're talking about restrictions.


Yes, I don't like it because I view it as running away from taking damage by use of technology I might not agree with.

This is pretty much going to be a response to a lot of your questions, so I'll state it here. Then why did you not simply take Balrogga up on his offer that he would leave in this thread instead of leaving it out? If you know so much about the NS universe, you'll know Balrogga's and your roleplay styles probably wouldn't go together.

Because me not liking something doesn't mean I want everyone to take their ball and go home, it means that there is an issue that needs to be resolved in some form or fashion before we revert to "lol u suk go way!"


There is an 'etablished' universe, and the fact that there are many 'established' universes only enhances the point that Balrogga's universe, containing his nation and his existance and his tech, is interacting with yours, which contains whatever you've decided it contains. Ie, a multiverse of interaction, with each 'universe' being the universe of that nation. A 200 page thread on research may not make the technology less wanky, but it does give fair and justifiable support to Balrogga's statement of "hey, hang on a sec here, you haven't even STATED you've done any research into this field of tech whatsoever, how can you just claim to have ftli accomplished enough to remove the advantages of a tech you haven't even acknowledged up until now, and even then in a ooc fashion". If you want to go with an example, it's more along the lines of 'I have this solar system destroying weapon that relies on temporal disruption, and I'm never going to abuse it in a context that might actually hurt someone's universe, and if you don't like it I simply won't use it vs you', and you come out and a say "No, I can counter your temporal weapon with my 'generic insert weapon here', despite not having any justifiable reason for you to believe that.' You know as well as anyone else, if you truly are an 'experienced roleplayer' that people will be worried about that, after the SQ debacle. that is what your initial posts made it out to be, although you've clarified it since then.

A few things. One: Research. Does. Not. Justify. Wank. It only makes the author go through a pointless exercise so his concept can be accepted, and even then there is no reason why I should have a piece of technology be accepted because I have a 200 page research thread on it, if it's wanky to the extreme.

Also there is the problem of me and everyone else being wholly unable to research everything we can or cannot do. As I said earlier, there is no reason to assume that an FT level nation doesn't have sensors that can observe the other proposed dimensions in our universe (which are not separate from the current 4, or we couldn't know about their existence in the first place).

Three: A gun is a gun. A laser should by all rights be just as effective in killing a ship as is a gravitic disrupter, a guass cannon, or a dumb kinetic. Applying the label "temporal" or "dimensional" doesn't make a damn bit of different in terms of killing power.

SQ is a flawed example of the concern I put forward. SQ attempted to crush people based on a day, or some weak and pathetic excuse. In the posts you made BEFORE this one, you very much gave the impression of "I don't give a damn about how good Balrogga's tech is, I say I can counter it and I have no proof to the contrary". If you know so well the inner workings of this forum, why didn't you simply post a disclaimer, or take Barlogga up on his offer imediately? The impression you've given me is you've made a wonderful thread (It was, just because we disagree I won't deny that), someone made a half-hearted joke and the first thing you did instead of going "hey, I'm trying to write a story here, can you not throw that tech around", you immediately stated how you could stop Balrogga's tech with your FTli without giving a reasonable justification, period. That's as much a confrontational stance as anything else, and from discussions with Balrogga he belived that was the impression you gave.

SQ is a perfect example of a flawed system of roleplay. Not only did he demand those young than he capitulates to his oh-so-silly whims, but he also added justification via a research thread that degenerated down to a mess of spammed pictures and C&P statistics. As it pertains to me disregarding Bal's technology: Er, no. In fact if we are going to go down that road then he disregarded mine just by his presence in that thread (Hoping to and fro, in and out again I go!). My justification is that FTLi is an RP saving device that keeps people from doing as I have described numerous times already. Besides, how can Balrogga justify escaping through an FTLi field, which by its very nature disrupts space and time as we know it to perturb the mechanisms that allow ships to transcend the laws keeping them firmly rooted in this universe. "Aw! HE HAS A RESEARCH THREAD!" Does not in anyway invalidate that fact.

Also the 'inner workings' of this forum as you describe it are, and have never been uniform in their existence. Different 'rules' of conduct generally exist between various groups (not that I necessarily agree with these rules, only that their existence totally refutes your statement that II has been and is a uniform entity with uniform rules or laws). Some people accept only the existence of MT or PMT nations; some want strict adherence to physics, others are magical in nature, some want to see research, some don't. I believe you get the point.

Not entirely. What you've failed to note here is that Old = Older, ie, existing for a larger period of time in both an ooc and ic context. Hence, they're rightly justified when you come out with such an agressive and confrontational stance on Tech and they may go 'hey, ... dodgy'. If you want to run with an Example of Seaquest, what did he do the first time around? He claimed his tech was good as everyone elses or better, he didn't justify as to why, and became agressive, confrontational and nasty towards people. I'll agree you weren't nearly as extreme, but at the same time one cannot deny the manner if which you've constructed the thread had given a slightly negative impression. You see, the big difference here is in your post basically personally attacking me, you then decide to tell us it's for the purposes of the story. My question is, why did you not mention this earlier? Seriously, such a consideration would have ended any and all concern in this thread. You want your Tech to "stop ruining bullshit", but your post and the manner in which you treated Balrogga gave exactly the opposite opinion to 3 different people, that you were being at least mildly confrontational. And as for the discussion on the validity of Being able to stop Dimensional research, that's Balroggas concern, not mine, so I won't respond to it.

Nope! In an OOC context you might be correct if we limit the scope to the age of the account and the account alone, ignoring the player behind the nation. Which is probably neither here nor there, but still. ICly you're wrong on all possible counts. There are nations with back histories that extend back to the conception of the universe when God said "Let there be light!", when the wave collapsed into matter, or when the singularity exploded. If you mean ICly in there interaction with the community as a whole, that's not true either. No one agrees as to how fast time travels in II or NS, ICly a nation may only have had contact with the outside universe for two months, or two-hundred years, which could make them older from an IC standpoint than someone who had created an account six OOC months before they did.

When we talk about seaquest, there is nothing wrong with tech parity or superiority; plenty of people create nations based on either their own invented canon or on the canon of a published universe. Those nations may be far stronger due to their very nature than any other in the NS universe. However, what balances this out and keeps everyone from being the Culture and only the Culture, is the concept of "balance", whereby a nation that is not meant to interact with the international community outside of set story lines, has certain disadvantages that makes what advantages inherent to that nation not a one dimensional, invincible construct. This all in the interest of fair play, though the idea has apparently died as of late considering certain circumstances as they stand now.

Also I have yet to personally attack you, yet I don't like your ideas but I've yet to call you any such derogatory term unless my statement about you never interacting with my is an insult. And as far as three people disagreeing with me: Fallacy. The entire world could agree with a concept and still be wrong, just as easily as one man can agree with something and still be wrong. A majority opinion on something does not make something bad good or something wrong right.

Which basically defines this entire thread as a misunderstanding, one side worried about Godmodding which makes stories bad for everyone (aka SQ) and the other wanting to tell a good story.

Yes, I worry about godmodding and the intent of my thread being compromised because, hell, it's my thread. I don't make posts with the intention of telling a bad story, or letting a good story go bad. Now I'm not saying Balrogga wanted to make a good story bad, yet you and anyone else demanding I adhere to certain conventions of roleplay in my own thread, that basically make my technology, and my concept, and my thread an irrelevant detail to the older sect, is not conducive to good story telling.

See, the funny thing here is that All I've said is merely that you take time and establish some believability about your nation, as per all nation to prevent the usual godmodding boredom that occurs when people claim 50x times what the artifical population limits of the game impose. IE, those usual concerns over GMing.

Er, no? A story of any good merit has no reason to wait so it may be told. The believability of my nation will not come to being in time if the concept itself is viewed as inherently wanky; it is then just a waste of everyone's time as they had to bother making threads, and reading them, just to decide that a certain area of a nation's physiology does not fit with their idea of the universe.

There is a big difference between brushing off someone's blatantly superior tech that they believe justifies what they've done, particularly when it isn't taken in godmodding context (although arguably wanky), which you seemed to have done on the opening posts, and just going "this is a story roleplay, I'm claiming to be this good for a reason". Hence Balrogga would never have entered the thread.

Yes, it is a story based roleplay thread in which the Niiatar Hegemony is currently more powerful than it has ever been, despite coming apart at the seems due to economic and social policies that only provide short term benefit but end in long term disasters. However, it is not, an excuse to gratify myself, as that is no way to tell a story, and not something I would expect people in any capacity to accept. So in that regard you'd be right, I feel, to think Balrogga wouldn't have bothered with the thread, yet I have always had this feeling that Bal cared about attempting to tell a good story, and not go "nenernenernener i c4nt b b3tt4r d3n u so i w0nt pl4y, lawlerlawler." as you seem to insinuate.

I thank you for clarifying, but I don't think you have any right to claim the things you have about me, if you're 'old' enough to know people would be concerned about the way you acted. This is because your opening impression given was that of a person who didn't care about tech differencies when all you wanted was to preserve a story.

Claim that you don't know what freeform is? I have most than enough justification to do so by your implying that I follow with roleplaying rules I don't agree with so that I may be able to write here. There is no persecution or victimization here if you're going to list reasons as to why my RP is illegitimate because it doesn't flow down your river of rules the right way.

Yes and no. What it claims is that to fight people in a strictly held, no barred context without any negotiation between the two players, the older nation should more than likely have an advantage as their raw population of NS stats is larger, and since that is the only restriction on freeform roleplay that should transcribe into an advantage.

Er, no. What it claims is that a newer nation cannot stand toe-to-toe with another, older nation because they can't possibly have better technology.

If that is a system you would throw through a woodchipper, nevermind the person behind the nation is still there to deflate/inflate their advantages to continue a new roleplay with a 'newbie', why are you playing a game where the only limitation on freeform roleplay is the population of a nation in the first place?

Again, we are now in a place where I didn't expect us to be: I advocate a freeform system, one that is not ruled by the nuances of "technology" or research as your post [b]specifically[/i] said to the contrary.

And of course, you stil have the right to veiw otherwise, but why you didn't simply define this when you are probably aware a fair few people believe in some guidelines for new roleplayers and they might be concerned is beyond me.

Because there are no guidelines to story telling (save that it be cogent, and readable) that are absolute or of any consequence to me. In fact, the onus is not upon me to make known I don't care about technology or wank, but instead the story: that is the entire point or storytelling and roleplay.

But then again, this seems to be a misunderstanding, they happen. Furthermore, I'd liek to state I didn't explain as to how strict the rules where, or whatnot. Merely that flouting those guidelines will be considered unfair to some of the roleplayers.

Indeed, it might not sit well with some roleplayers, but that doesn't stop the MTers from roleplaying because some of them don't believe in future tech. It doesn't stop hard sc-fi roleplayers from posting because some want to play with the impossible technological devices inherent to some canon sources. It is because 'guidelines' as I have explained are not a uniform entity in II, NS, or the world of RPing at large.

It's a little more complex than that. You open a roleplay, a chap named balrogga walks in. If you are experienced, you should know he might be concerned by you brushing his tech off without explaining it's simply because you want a good story, and to hell with restraints.

I never brushed off his tech, I never said I didn't plan on his weapons hurting my ships or his concept presenting a challenge to mine: what I brushed off was a contrary attitude that seems to state, "We're older, and therefore we are victorious" as is the system described by you.

You should know he might be concerned, and yet the first thing you do is say the tech of a younger nation, for no discernable reason whatsoever, with no previous evidence to the contrary, is able to stop the joking exploit of Balrogga. Who was simply trying to have a joke at your moderate expense. Surely you'd also be aware some people might be concerned that someone such as you, with such an opening post, might one day head into the borderline godmodding "why can't I have all the big guns right here right now .. and USE THEM ON YOU" atitude we've had in the future.

See, you contradict yourself whereby you describe a system that is only limited by NS population, then you talk about younger nations and technology. Either you advocate a freeform system that is only limited by population as far as general roleplaying goes for the sake of simplicity, or you propose a system that is based wholly on age so as to limit the technology available to younger nations. Which is it?

Are you justified to inflate/deflate power for a roleplay that contains only you, or when you notify us beforehand? Yes

I don't need to notify you in my own thread that I intend to tell a good story. Also this "contains" only you seems to insinuate that I only care about gratifying myself, as obviously my intent was to involve other people hence it being open. Which is a rather odd thing to do since you seem to suggest that you are being martyred by my "personal?" attacks.


Did Others believe your atitude implied you were everything but the opposite of what you've outlined here? Yes


And I find this to be a problem of their own creation, and not the fault of my own because I don't feel obligated to follow a system in a freeform environment, that is advanced by what does not amount to the NS/II community in totality.

Hence, is this entire concerns thread just a misunderstanding that both sides could have avoided, you by being more specific as to who you were (a smurf, puppet, whatever) wanting a storyline roleplay and us being a little jumpy on the gun? Yes.

See, I don't need to do any of those things; no one does. Me being a puppet or someone as knew as you previously believed does not invalidate my position as a story telling, or obligate me to follow a system of rules that are not representative of the community as a whole. I also don't need to tell anyone I want to tell a story: that is implied considering that is the whole point of roleplay when one desires it to be something other than a text-based wargame without any real stats. Did I jump the gun? Nope. Considering it was you who have proposed this system, and it was you who have also felt the need to suggest I go along with it, I am not in the wrong for rebuffing it, in its entirety.

Was there a misunderstanding? Yes. Should I shoulder some of the blame because I am human and thus fallible? Yes. But should I shoulder more than a little of it? I think not.

Just gonna touch on points as they come up, as it really is a VERY long post.

Nope. A story is not limited by such simple constructs, its only confines are those of the authors imagination. However, if we were to limit NS based on the system you suggest, then almost everything people RP is impossible, as the simplistic NS game is not built with the idea of FT in mind.

And I said being older means you have more men to throw into the grinder as far as war is concerned. The only reason why I generally adhere to size limitations is for balance purposes when I am RPing with other people who use a more restrained system than I do. Yet, this doesn't stop anyone from claiming a pan-galactic empire with a warfleet dwarfing that of the Empire, as long as the plot calls for it and it's not an exercise in "Harhar, I own j00."

Incorrect. If you wish to claim such things, there are off-site boards that I am certain you can frequent to 'tell your story'. However, when you are on NS yes there are rules that one must abide by, if only to ensure that people do not come on and directly challenge you to back your claims up. Some choose limitations only on population, while others utilize other factors, but there ARE limitations, simply because it assists in keeping people from doing exactly what you're trying to do and hiding behind "For the Story" (Unified Sith does this a lot. It is very aggravating)

When you talk about research, you're talking about restrictions.

We're talking about RP evidence that you can do what you say. Something that you have not provided.

Because me not liking something doesn't mean I want everyone to take their ball and go home, it means that there is an issue that needs to be resolved in some form or fashion before we revert to "lol u suk go way!"

Your response kinda DID equate to "lol u suk go way!". Because YOU did not like something, you simply said the equivalent of "I have X device that completely stops ALL FTL ever period! Ha Ha! Neener Neener!" which in many RPs, without IN-CHARACTER DOCUMENTATION OF YOU HAVING RESEARCHED SUCH A THING, is A) Very poor form B) Wankish

A few things. One: Research. Does. Not. Justify. Wank. It only makes the author go through a pointless exercise so his concept can be accepted, and even then there is no reason why I should have a piece of technology be accepted because I have a 200 page research thread on it, if it's wanky to the extreme.

It might not stop an uber-wank from getting accepted, but if you put down sufficient RP effort with holycraplots of information and background and testing and interaction and Q&As and progress reports and all sorts of IC whatchamacallits that prove you're paying attention... then chances are you've earned the right to claim that object.

However, coming out and saying "I have a laser that can destroy a planet in one shot from three systems away" in your third or fourth post EVER on the board (whether you had an older account or not), just because somebody's done something that you don't like... is wank.

Disliking something does not justify wank.

Also there is the problem of me and everyone else being wholly unable to research everything we can or cannot do. As I said earlier, there is no reason to assume that an FT level nation doesn't have sensors that can observe the other proposed dimensions in our universe (which are not separate from the current 4, or we couldn't know about their existence in the first place).

Indeed. And maybe after significant poring over of whatever telemetry you might acquire from a force that bounces about the battlefield like rabbits on caffeine overdrive, you'd find some means to ensure that such a thing is sufficiently countered during later encounters. And if you could develop such kinds of sensors, rather than saying 'I STILL SEE JOOOOOOOOO!', I'm certain they would be accepted.

Three: A gun is a gun. A laser should by all rights be just as effective in killing a ship as is a gravitic disrupter, a guass cannon, or a dumb kinetic. Applying the label "temporal" or "dimensional" doesn't make a damn bit of different in terms of killing power.

I'm fairly certain we made no claims of difference. However, saying that you can straight up counter something that you don't like (as I have mentioned previously) just ain't kosher. That a shield should be 100% effective against the weapon of the day is just as bad as saying that the weapon of the day can pass straight through somebody's shields.

There's a kind of balance that needs to be struck here. Its very key.

SQ is a perfect example of a flawed system of roleplay. Not only did he demand those young than he capitulates to his oh-so-silly whims, but he also added justification via a research thread that degenerated down to a mess of spammed pictures and C&P statistics. As it pertains to me disregarding Bal's technology: Er, no. In fact if we are going to go down that road then he disregarded mine just by his presence in that thread (Hoping to and fro, in and out again I go!). My justification is that FTLi is an RP saving device that keeps people from doing as I have described numerous times already. Besides, how can Balrogga justify escaping through an FTLi field, which by its very nature disrupts space and time as we know it to perturb the mechanisms that allow ships to transcend the laws keeping them firmly rooted in this universe. "Aw! HE HAS A RESEARCH THREAD!" Does not in anyway invalidate that fact.

There should be a Godwins law about using SQ to enforce any point. He was one of the most putrid RPers NS has ever seen. Maybe not the worst speller. Maybe not the worst writer. But he failed in effectively every single possible way, repeatedly, and spectacularly. To use his ignominious legacy to reinforce an argument against a legitimate concept (that he of course attempted to exploit to his own advantage as that was his way in all things), is grasping for straws at best.

Also the 'inner workings' of this forum as you describe it are, and have never been uniform in their existence. Different 'rules' of conduct generally exist between various groups (not that I necessarily agree with these rules, only that their existence totally refutes your statement that II has been and is a uniform entity with uniform rules or laws). Some people accept only the existence of MT or PMT nations; some want strict adherence to physics, others are magical in nature, some want to see research, some don't. I believe you get the point.

The only 'Rules' are 'general acceptance.' If you can back yourself up, you can pull it off, but there are some things that you cannot do. Namely an example of a November 06 nation saying he has... lets say... 4000 ships. Each about the size of a small moon, armed to the teeth, and crewed by THE most elite fighting force in the universe. That's the kind of stuff that does not get accepted. Hell, in the case of that post there's a good chance GMC Military Arms would pop on and delete it straight up, simply because it'd be taken as spam.

Nope! In an OOC context you might be correct if we limit the scope to the age of the account and the account alone, ignoring the player behind the nation. Which is probably neither here nor there, but still. ICly you're wrong on all possible counts. There are nations with back histories that extend back to the conception of the universe when God said "Let there be light!", when the wave collapsed into matter, or when the singularity exploded. If you mean ICly in there interaction with the community as a whole, that's not true either. No one agrees as to how fast time travels in II or NS, ICly a nation may only have had contact with the outside universe for two months, or two-hundred years, which could make them older from an IC standpoint than someone who had created an account six OOC months before they did.

Backstory or no, we try to keep things based on nation population given on the NS website. That's the only concrete statistic we have apart from the Civil Rights / Economy / Political Freedoms bar and tax rate.

When we talk about seaquest, there is nothing wrong with tech parity or superiority; plenty of people create nations based on either their own invented canon or on the canon of a published universe. Those nations may be far stronger due to their very nature than any other in the NS universe. However, what balances this out and keeps everyone from being the Culture and only the Culture, is the concept of "balance", whereby a nation that is not meant to interact with the international community outside of set story lines, has certain disadvantages that makes what advantages inherent to that nation not a one dimensional, invincible construct. This all in the interest of fair play, though the idea has apparently died as of late considering certain circumstances as they stand now.

Funny you should mention balance. For the most part, it shouldn't honestly matter what general tech you use. However, that you can back it up with In Character evidence/documentation/people previously accepting what you wrote, is what TRULY matters. Not what YOU say should go, but what everybody else AGREES with. Namely: Back yourself up. RP. Show research. Show progress. PROVE that you DESERVE that tech you claim you have.

Also I have yet to personally attack you, yet I don't like your ideas but I've yet to call you any such derogatory term unless my statement about you never interacting with my is an insult. And as far as three people disagreeing with me: Fallacy. The entire world could agree with a concept and still be wrong, just as easily as one man can agree with something and still be wrong. A majority opinion on something does not make something bad good or something wrong right.

While I might agree with you on such a sentiment, majority opinion is really the only kind of Balance Maintenance a board like this can have. If more people say you're wrong than people say you're right, chances are, in NS, YOU'RE WRONG. (Unless of course you can back yourself up)

Yes, I worry about godmodding and the intent of my thread being compromised because, hell, it's my thread. I don't make posts with the intention of telling a bad story, or letting a good story go bad. Now I'm not saying Balrogga wanted to make a good story bad, yet you and anyone else demanding I adhere to certain conventions of roleplay in my own thread, that basically make my technology, and my concept, and my thread an irrelevant detail to the older sect, is not conducive to good story telling.

Again, if you want to tell a story based on your own rules, either make it closed or stick to an offsite forum. In coming here, you're no longer playing by your rules. You're playing by everyone else's, everyone who has spent time on this board working up information in droves to prove that they earned what they have on this board. It is the only way we can show balance. It is the only way we can prevent people from coming out of nowhere and saying "I PWN U HA HA."

Er, no? A story of any good merit has no reason to wait so it may be told. The believability of my nation will not come to being in time if the concept itself is viewed as inherently wanky; it is then just a waste of everyone's time as they had to bother making threads, and reading them, just to decide that a certain area of a nation's physiology does not fit with their idea of the universe.

Offsite forums! *dances a little jig*

Yes, it is a story based roleplay thread in which the Niiatar Hegemony is currently more powerful than it has ever been, despite coming apart at the seems due to economic and social policies that only provide short term benefit but end in long term disasters. However, it is not, an excuse to gratify myself, as that is no way to tell a story, and not something I would expect people in any capacity to accept. So in that regard you'd be right, I feel, to think Balrogga wouldn't have bothered with the thread, yet I have always had this feeling that Bal cared about attempting to tell a good story, and not go "nenernenernener i c4nt b b3tt4r d3n u so i w0nt pl4y, lawlerlawler." as you seem to insinuate.

Now perhaps you might have been so kind as to mention that your 'Open thread' would have significant levels of initial wankery, eventually to be rectified to more nominally acceptable levels through the progression of the RP. Hell, I've done that before! Twice!

Put in an addendum that these forces are stronger than normal and whatnot, and that anybody coming in with hostile intent or poor sportsmanship will very likely get kersmished. As long as it is made clear that such a thing does not carry over into other RPs accept as background information, and that you don't have fleets neither as powerful nor as numerous in any external RPs you might later choose to participate in.

Claim that you don't know what freeform is? I have most than enough justification to do so by your implying that I follow with roleplaying rules I don't agree with so that I may be able to write here. There is no persecution or victimization here if you're going to list reasons as to why my RP is illegitimate because it doesn't flow down your river of rules the right way.

Compromise is also another big factor in maintaining balance on this forum. Its a two way street. We can't have it our way every day, and truth be told neither can you.

Er, no. What it claims is that a newer nation cannot stand toe-to-toe with another, older nation because they can't possibly have better technology.

Or that a younger nation had better start proving its RP skills pretty damn fast or there's gonna be a smackdown handed out.

Again, we are now in a place where I didn't expect us to be: I advocate a freeform system, one that is not ruled by the nuances of "technology" or research as your post [b]specifically[/i] said to the contrary.

Offsite forum! *Dances a little jig*

Because there are no guidelines to story telling (save that it be cogent, and readable) that are absolute or of any consequence to me. In fact, the onus is not upon me to make known I don't care about technology or wank, but instead the story: that is the entire point or storytelling and roleplay.

And don't forget that you need to be able to back yourself up! Documentation! Prior RPs! Research! Text! A picture or two! Lots and lots and lots of description! If any Tom Dick or Harry came in saying they had a Death Star two weeks into their existence, saying its only apart of the story they want to tell, and then blowing the shit out of every planet in the galaxy for shits and giggles, well... that's just... NO.

Indeed, it might not sit well with some roleplayers, but that doesn't stop the MTers from roleplaying because some of them don't believe in future tech. It doesn't stop hard sc-fi roleplayers from posting because some want to play with the impossible technological devices inherent to some canon sources. It is because 'guidelines' as I have explained are not a uniform entity in II, NS, or the world of RPing at large.

Of course, most MT RPers also operate under the convention that they will have not one damn thing to do with FT RPers. For most part, RP epochs keep to themselves. If anybody in FT is flaunting technical superiority over MT nations by virtue of "I have warp drive and u do not LOL", that person is very likely gonna get killed by every other *FT* nation for the breach.

Hell, its generally agreed upon that attacking Sol or MT nations is carte blanche for your nation to be erased in the worst ways.

I never brushed off his tech, I never said I didn't plan on his weapons hurting my ships or his concept presenting a challenge to mine: what I brushed off was a contrary attitude that seems to state, "We're older, and therefore we are victorious" as is the system described by you.

No, what you did was claim to have an FTLi that works against everything. When such is held by a great portion of FT as wankish, particularly when you don't have the research/RP support to back yourself up. This is quite key.

See, you contradict yourself whereby you describe a system that is only limited by NS population, then you talk about younger nations and technology. Either you advocate a freeform system that is only limited by population as far as general roleplaying goes for the sake of simplicity, or you propose a system that is based wholly on age so as to limit the technology available to younger nations. Which is it?

We describe a system based on the only concrete stats we have. If you want good tech, if you can come up with it, or you can prove that you earned that tech, and/or you've PROVEN that you're just that damn good an RPer... then chances are your stuff will be more readily accepted by the rest of the community at large.

I don't need to notify you in my own thread that I intend to tell a good story. Also this "contains" only you seems to insinuate that I only care about gratifying myself, as obviously my intent was to involve other people hence it being open. Which is a rather odd thing to do since you seem to suggest that you are being martyred by my "personal?" attacks.

In inviting other people to participate in your thread, however, you are agreeing to play by the forum's general conventions. Whether you like it or not. If you make addenda that "yadda yadda is meant to be a story RP and I will be taking some 'liberties' that might be questionable to other RPers but just bear with me cuz this will be a good read I can guarantee!" then I suspect you will get people more interested in the Story RP stuff, and people to oblige with such things, as long as you don't try to hold it over their head later.

And I find this to be a problem of their own creation, and not the fault of my own because I don't feel obligated to follow a system in a freeform environment, that is advanced by what does not amount to the NS/II community in totality.

But this is not a COMPLETELY freeform environment. There are general rules of thumb that ya should keep in mind if you want people to RP with you in the future. If you are unwilling to keep such things in mind, out of respect for your fellow RPers, well, there's an alternative...

You guessed it.

Offsite forums! *Dances a little jig*

See, I don't need to do any of those things; no one does. Me being a puppet or someone as knew as you previously believed does not invalidate my position as a story telling, or obligate me to follow a system of rules that are not representative of the community as a whole. I also don't need to tell anyone I want to tell a story: that is implied considering that is the whole point of roleplay when one desires it to be something other than a text-based wargame without any real stats. Did I jump the gun? Nope. Considering it was you who have proposed this system, and it was you who have also felt the need to suggest I go along with it, I am not in the wrong for rebuffing it, in its entirety.

You ARE however, in the wrong for rebuffing a system that has been generally agreed upon by most of the standard RPers on this forum. If we go back to every Tom Dick and Harry that wanted to say they had bajillions of uberpowerful ships crewed by superhuman cyborgs of uberosity, if they responded to every statement of 'Dude, you're godmoding!' with 'Screw you I'm telling a story!'... that would be... just... NO.

Was there a misunderstanding? Yes. Should I shoulder some of the blame because I am human and thus fallible? Yes. But should I shoulder more than a little of it? I think not.

Should a murderer try to blame his crime on the cops for catching him? Should an embezzler blame all those numbers that led the accounting folks to implicate him for his actions? Should a Godmoder blame the forum for not letting him get away with what he wants?

Not that I am calling you a godmoder, just saying that this seems to be the general point of your argument. You're blaming us for calling you on stuff.

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Godular. And on one simple point. The state of intro threads these days. To be honest, if he wanted to bring a perfect FTLi into every thread he was in, that'd be blatant wank.

But, from what I've seen, he doesn't. And intro threads these days are SHIT. There's no other way to describe them. In this case, using FTLi is like wearing a condom when having sex with someone who has herpes, AIDS, genital warts, and chlymidia. Half of the people in intro threads come in and ruin them for everyone else.

And he has absolutely no guarantee that Bal doesn't want to toss an asteroid or six through extradimensional travel at his homeworld.

If he wanted uber-FTLi in every thread, I could perhaps agree with you. But giving people the right to not make their entrance into FT traumatic is hardly wanking. It's damn common sense.



And one other thing. Age is not equal to technology. The only right you have to claim regarding technology is that your technology is equal to that of others. You have no right to claim that your tech is superior (although you can RP it as being inferior if you so wish), and, to be frank, age only directly correlates with military power.

To explain my interpretations of this quote, as everyone else is arguing over the other points.


See, you contradict yourself whereby you describe a system that is only limited by NS population, then you talk about younger nations and technology. Either you advocate a freeform system that is only limited by population as far as general roleplaying goes for the sake of simplicity, or you propose a system that is based wholly on age so as to limit the technology available to younger nations. Which is it?

It's both. The system is fundamentally only limited by population, and always will be. However, some interpret this as larger your population, the greater your advantages as population is not only related to military. A larger population gives you a larger work base, research base, more troops to man your research divisons, armies, land and all other systems, without you going inot the grey areas that constitute godmodding. However, even if you strictly believe 'military applications' , the military are responsible for the implementation of technology in a military application.

THUS

Since in NS Age is proportional to population

So therefore, I haven't contradicted myself at all, as age and population are linked irreversably, and Almost all restrictions seep from that one limiter, Population.

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Godular. And on one simple point. The state of intro threads these days. To be honest, if he wanted to bring a perfect FTLi into every thread he was in, that'd be blatant wank.

But, from what I've seen, he doesn't. And intro threads these days are SHIT. There's no other way to describe them. In this case, using FTLi is like wearing a condom when having sex with someone who has herpes, AIDS, genital warts, and chlymidia. Half of the people in intro threads come in and ruin them for everyone else.

And he has absolutely no guarantee that Bal doesn't want to toss an asteroid or six through extradimensional travel at his homeworld.

If he wanted uber-FTLi in every thread, I could perhaps agree with you. But giving people the right to not make their entrance into FT traumatic is hardly wanking. It's damn common sense.

And if he wanted to "Tell A Story" as he has stated previously, then he should have mentioned such, that, as I stated earlier myself, he would possibly be taking some liberties in order to preserve the aforementioned storyline. In an intro thread, I am certain such things would be granted.

However, such was not mentioned, and it has led to this rather voluminous argument.

What else do you RP for, but to tell a story? If that's the crux of it, I thought it'd be fairly obvious that he was trying to tell a story from his attitude alone. And, to be honest, if he claimed he had a blanket FTLi that stopped all forms of FTL no matter what in a war RP, I'd join in, and call wank.

But, as I said, differnet RPs, different.. dispensations.

There are limits though. What if some doink decided to rumble in and say he was gonna bring in some bigass gun of ker-DOOM to blow the crap out of another Nation's homeworld without that nation's consent...

That'd cause an argument, don'tcha think?

If ya wanna tell a story, that's all well and good. If you wanna tell a story and have other folks involved, ya MIGHT wanna be kind enough to point out that there's gonna be some liberties taken. Very large fleet that will poof at the end. Amusing tech thingie that will poof at the end. Man eating teddy-bears that will poof at the end. Et cetera...

You do understand defender's preogerative, yes? This isn't remotely related with bigassgunofodoom-style things. We could, at best, compare it with someone who had an invincible shield around their homeworld in their intro RP. (Of course, since FTLi cannot prevent sublight travel, the invincible shield would likewise have a giant glaring flaw; perhaps kinetic weaponry would be able to pass through it unstopped)

And this isn't a tech thingie. It's something that is quite reasonable to have. After all, we currently know of four dimensions. String theory, and the like.. well, to put it simply, it's not unreasonable to think that dimensional travel would've been unlocked in the future, and some rudimentary device put in place to stop all travel through them.

Let me put it this way. It won't be ships a military dictatorship's scared of. It'll be rocks thrown through dimensions at high c-fracs. And that's more than enough reason to develop such kind of tech.

But one cannot claim something that stops every kind of FTL ever period neener neener, just all willy nilly like that. Its very poor sportsmanship. In an intro thread, there should be some leniencies, I agree, but such does not give a man carte blanch to claim such things simply because his personal opinion goes against such things. If he would be so kind as to mention that he dislikes people pulling some kind of port-fu on him, I would think people would be very much understanding.

Just don't try pulling a "I HIT YOU!" "NO YA DIDN'T!" "YES I DID!" "NO YA DIDN'T!" argument, which such things generally come down to.

It appears the whole thing happened because his description of his FTLi was stated as preventing others as exceeding the speed of light. I am using my phone to post so I cannot quote the Thread. Since my ships didn't exceed the stated inhibitor effect it was reasoned it was a standard FTLi system that prevented the exceeding of C for ships in Real Space and not a specilized one with other effects that would prevent me from Uplifting.

I invite others to read the post in question to see what I meant. Someone can provide the link.

Now, I should take some of the blame because I never contacted Niiatar before assuming he had forgotten to describe his whole FTLi effects.

I apologize for the mistakes I have made.

Incorrect. If you wish to claim such things, there are off-site boards that I am certain you can frequent to 'tell your story'. However, when you are on NS yes there are rules that one must abide by, if only to ensure that people do not come on and directly challenge you to back your claims up. Some choose limitations only on population, while others utilize other factors, but there ARE limitations, simply because it assists in keeping people from doing exactly what you're trying to do and hiding behind "For the Story" (Unified Sith does this a lot. It is very aggravating)

Such limitations are agreed between players on a thread-by-thread basis for purposes of story: after all, it's difficult to write a story where any one of the participants can do literally anything, so most people draw a box around what they'll accept so things stay reasonably consistant.

There are no universal RP rules, and stickies are guidelines on what the majority regard as acceptable, they are not ironclad rules.

We're talking about RP evidence that you can do what you say. Something that you have not provided.

Something that is neither necessary nor really even a good idea, at times. If you don't understand science and technology, for example, trying to write a research thread will only show off your ignorance and have people who do giggling at you.

Because YOU did not like something, you simply said the equivalent of "I have X device that completely stops ALL FTL ever period! Ha Ha! Neener Neener!" which in many RPs, without IN-CHARACTER DOCUMENTATION OF YOU HAVING RESEARCHED SUCH A THING, is A) Very poor form B) Wankish

That's called a plot device. FTL limiting devices are common in RP and used to prevent everything becoming ship-warps-in-destroys-target-ship-warps-out-before-return-fire-can-hit. While I'm not familiar with the circumstances here, it seems awfully like you're trying to blame another poster for your failure to acquire adequate intel before attacking. In an MT RP this is like walking into a minefield and bitching that there's no way a mine can be effective against all types of foot. Maybe not; it's still effective against your foot, and it doesn't change that you just walked into a gorram minefield.

Maybe you should stop complaining you can't advance as fast and do something about the mines? Jebus, the fact that the system exists doesn't stop it being disabled or destroyed, and doesn't stop the intercepted ships fighting and using sublight engines. Also, bitching that they can't know Balrogga's FTL system is silly: the converse is you can't know Niiatar's FTLi, which might work against this specific form of FTL by simple coincidence or guesswork about probable FTL forms by the engineers who designed it.

It might not stop an uber-wank from getting accepted, but if you put down sufficient RP effort with holycraplots of information and background and testing and interaction and Q&As and progress reports and all sorts of IC whatchamacallits that prove you're paying attention... then chances are you've earned the right to claim that object.

Not really. If the RP in question consists of pseudoscientific junk and reams of made-up stats, people will just giggle at you. The ability to throw out a thousand words on an item neither means that item is fair in RP, or that the junk thrown being the writeup is useful. Not everyone has infinite free time, and if a player wants to interact with others rather than spend ages writing nonsense about how the quantum fucktuations invert the polaronic flux revealinator 3,000,000,000 times a quobloth, that's their shout, not yours.

However, coming out and saying "I have a laser that can destroy a planet in one shot from three systems away" in your third or fourth post EVER on the board (whether you had an older account or not), just because somebody's done something that you don't like... is wank.

Depends how well you write it and how fairly you play it, actually. The second more than the first. In RotJ the Empire basically pulled a second Death Star out of its cavernous ass, but it made for a good, exciting story.

Indeed. And maybe after significant poring over of whatever telemetry you might acquire from a force that bounces about the battlefield like rabbits on caffeine overdrive, you'd find some means to ensure that such a thing is sufficiently countered during later encounters.

Are you trying to imply there's no way of developing weapons able to engage ships using FTL powerplants without fighting warships using FT powerplants? Given how common they are in FT, that's as ludicrous as claiming you can't develop any method of disabling an internal combustion engine until you've lost a battle to a tank division.

And if you could develop such kinds of sensors, rather than saying 'I STILL SEE JOOOOOOOOO!', I'm certain they would be accepted.

Well, that would be kinda difficult, since we know very little about those dimensions, so the sensor would be all but impossible to describe.

I'm fairly certain we made no claims of difference. However, saying that you can straight up counter something that you don't like (as I have mentioned previously) just ain't kosher. That a shield should be 100% effective against the weapon of the day is just as bad as saying that the weapon of the day can pass straight through somebody's shields.

Sometimes armouring or weapons are 100% effective against the weapon / shield of the day, think of the end of the age of the castle when it became child's play to demolish them with cannons. When that happens, you need a new weapon of the day. But both players also need to agree that's what's happened before it does.

There's a kind of balance that needs to be struck here. Its very key.

That kind of balance comes when players stop obsessing with 'winning' and talk to each other. You can agree to have a 100% effective weapon or shield as a plot device, after all. It makes for a good centrepiece of a plotline to disable the ship with the shield / weapon before it can do any more damage.

The only 'Rules' are 'general acceptance.' If you can back yourself up, you can pull it off, but there are some things that you cannot do. Namely an example of a November 06 nation saying he has... lets say... 4000 ships. Each about the size of a small moon, armed to the teeth, and crewed by THE most elite fighting force in the universe. That's the kind of stuff that does not get accepted. Hell, in the case of that post there's a good chance GMC Military Arms would pop on and delete it straight up, simply because it'd be taken as spam.

I created a nation of a single 12-mile vessel that was so powerful its entire universe collapsed around it because its shield wouldn't fail, and I intend to restart that sometime. The Amethyst's *secondary* guns can destroy star systems.

If something is written well, you shouldn't jump on the nation over age. Excessive leaning on the population stat with regard to younger nations makes it hard for good roleplayers to do the whole galactic superpower bit which some can pull off nicely. It's just silly to say that player X can't be big and scary because you, player Y, found the forum earlier than he did.

Backstory or no, we try to keep things based on nation population given on the NS website. That's the only concrete statistic we have apart from the Civil Rights / Economy / Political Freedoms bar and tax rate.

Well, you'd be better than RPers who claim the population stat is their military and they have X quadrillion people, at least.

Funny you should mention balance. For the most part, it shouldn't honestly matter what general tech you use. However, that you can back it up with In Character evidence/documentation/people previously accepting what you wrote, is what TRULY matters. Not what YOU say should go, but what everybody else AGREES with. Namely: Back yourself up. RP. Show research. Show progress. PROVE that you DESERVE that tech you claim you have.

That's an incredibly arrogant demand. Not everyone has the free time, inspiration or knowledge to write IC threads and expansive tech threads, and for that matter a lot of them in FT just turn out as embarrassing reams of Voyager-style gibberish. Constant claims that quantum effects can be applied to entire spacecraft being perhaps the most amusing of them.

While I might agree with you on such a sentiment, majority opinion is really the only kind of Balance Maintenance a board like this can have. If more people say you're wrong than people say you're right, chances are, in NS, YOU'RE WRONG. (Unless of course you can back yourself up)

No, if even one person agrees with you, you are right. To that person. If you want to RP with lots of people you have to care what the majority opinion is. If not, you only have to care about the opinions of the specific people you're playing with.

Again, if you want to tell a story based on your own rules, either make it closed or stick to an offsite forum. In coming here, you're no longer playing by your rules. You're playing by everyone else's, everyone who has spent time on this board working up information in droves to prove that they earned what they have on this board. It is the only way we can show balance. It is the only way we can prevent people from coming out of nowhere and saying "I PWN U HA HA."

No, you prevent that by ignoring it if it's bad RP and, hell, playing along with it if they're good at it. After three years of NS, it's getting kinda crappy to have people scream 'you can't do that because you're small, fucker!' to preserve a population advantage based purely on when they found the site.

I claim a population of 14 billion for one of my other nations. Why? Because it's a gargantuan superpower, it's supposed to be bigger than my main nation, and I don't use it for advantage in RAWR I'M HUGE contests. Balance is something practised by both players to keep the story running [because if it's too unbalanced, someone wins and the story ends], not something you hit people over the head with when you want them to conform.

Now perhaps you might have been so kind as to mention that your 'Open thread' would have significant levels of initial wankery, eventually to be rectified to more nominally acceptable levels through the progression of the RP. Hell, I've done that before! Twice!

Maybe you should have asked by telegram, PM or OOC post. It's not the OP's duty to read your fucking mind and answer all your questions before you ask them.

Put in an addendum that these forces are stronger than normal and whatnot, and that anybody coming in with hostile intent or poor sportsmanship will very likely get kersmished. As long as it is made clear that such a thing does not carry over into other RPs accept as background information, and that you don't have fleets neither as powerful nor as numerous in any external RPs you might later choose to participate in.

Or you could assume good faith and go along with it, or telegram the OP...Naw, let's just describe the entire plotline in the first post, no need to bother with that whole 'storyline unfolds post by post' nonsense.

Or that a younger nation had better start proving its RP skills pretty damn fast or there's gonna be a smackdown handed out.

Oh no, you're going to destroy their imaginary spaceships they don't have to acknowledge you destroying. Smackdowns over bad RP are truly the most deluded thing that happens on this forum, think about it for a minute:

'You suck! I hate your RP, you can't play fair, and you never lose!'
'So?'
'So I'm going to RP with you some more and try to defeat you even though we've already established you won't let me win.'
'Bang, I win.'
'Argh!'

And don't forget that you need to be able to back yourself up! Documentation! Prior RPs! Research! Text! A picture or two! Lots and lots and lots of description!

Yes! Believable characters and situations, an interesting plot, national background, culture, religion and everything else must be secondary in an NS player's mind to reams of Treknobabble about his pretend spacedyships.

Apparently.

Of course, most MT RPers also operate under the convention that they will have not one damn thing to do with FT RPers. For most part, RP epochs keep to themselves. If anybody in FT is flaunting technical superiority over MT nations by virtue of "I have warp drive and u do not LOL", that person is very likely gonna get killed by every other *FT* nation for the breach.

Erm...Why? The Prime Directive [which is implied by a 'breach'] is a doctrine of absolute moral cowardice, there's no reason why an FT nation couldn't interact with an MT nation and even trade with them.

Hell, its generally agreed upon that attacking Sol or MT nations is carte blanche for your nation to be erased in the worst ways.

No, it's generally agreed that since the Solar system hosts the largest FT military presence of any star system in the entire NS universe, attacking it is similar to trying to destroy a hornet's nest by headbutting it.

No, what you did was claim to have an FTLi that works against everything. When such is held by a great portion of FT as wankish, particularly when you don't have the research/RP support to back yourself up. This is quite key.

Again, that's a plot device to encourage a certain type of RP. If you weren't prepared to go along with it you should have explained that by telegram or OOC post and tried to reach an agreement, not started yelling because Niiatar doesn't have a thread set aside to say how many leptococks his phase inverter can moisturise every parsec.

We describe a system based on the only concrete stats we have. If you want good tech, if you can come up with it, or you can prove that you earned that tech, and/or you've PROVEN that you're just that damn good an RPer... then chances are your stuff will be more readily accepted by the rest of the community at large.

People accepted Indra's stuff and Indra's stuff was made from moronic Treknobabble by a self-proclaimed 'theoretical physicist' who didn't understand high-school level calculus. A lot of people can be swayed by silly technobabble, and acceptance neither means the thing is fair or that the thing is good RP.

In inviting other people to participate in your thread, however, you are agreeing to play by the forum's general conventions. Whether you like it or not.

No, they are agreeing to abide by yours. As OP, you have the power in an IC thread to request removal of posts from your thread by the moderators. The OP's rules on what is acceptable RP in his thread stand barring his deletion or banning, and if you don't like that you can start your own thread.

But this is not a COMPLETELY freeform environment. There are general rules of thumb that ya should keep in mind if you want people to RP with you in the future. If you are unwilling to keep such things in mind, out of respect for your fellow RPers, well, there's an alternative...

Completely freeform RP is a silly concept on any forum that has moderators: there are obviously some things you cannot do, and some things we will consider trolling. However, barring those, the OP can do whatever the hell he likes in his thread. If you don't like how he's running it, try to talk to him by telegram or OOC and explain your problem rather than yelling that he's an awful-ass RPer for not reading your mind about how you wanted things to go.

You ARE however, in the wrong for rebuffing a system that has been generally agreed upon by most of the standard RPers on this forum.

It has? Must've missed that memo.

If we go back to every Tom Dick and Harry that wanted to say they had bajillions of uberpowerful ships crewed by superhuman cyborgs of uberosity, if they responded to every statement of 'Dude, you're godmoding!' with 'Screw you I'm telling a story!'... that would be... just... NO.

Nobody ever did that. People who aren't trolls rapidly realise that there's no way to win in a persistent round-robin storytelling session, try to find people who like writing the same way they do, and settle down in happy little cliques that other cliques bitch about because they're doing it wrong, the bastards.

Not that I am calling you a godmoder, just saying that this seems to be the general point of your argument. You're blaming us for calling you on stuff.

He appears to be blaming you for expecting him to read your mind and figure out you'd object to his thread unless he buttressed it with a disclaimer that ruined the entire plot. It'd be sorta like printing 'IT MAY SEEM CRAZY WHAT KURTZ IS DOING BUT DON'T WORRY BECAUSE HE GETS KILLED AT THE END' one second after the start of Apocalypse Now.

Two way street, GMC. It works both ways. Gotta be some mutual respect involved. Sure you can be a dick in your own thread if you want. Good luck getting people to play along if you keep it up though.

I suppose that's its own enforcing factor, of course.

Two way street, GMC. It works both ways. Gotta be some mutual respect involved.

Not much respect involved in randomly jumping a ship into into the middle of a fleet to show everyone how big your gravametric reading is and make a smartassed comment. Two-way street comments require the more experienced NS player to show respect first, generally.

The way I entered the Thread is a demonstrated IC action. Everything I did in that Thread is all completely In Character with previously demonstrated actions that can be found by doing a search. I believe I explained that in the OOC Thread.

The gravity signature is the downside of my power cores. They contain a singularity and the result is I cannot ever use a cloak with my ship design due to the resulting mass signature.

I have flaws built into all my stuff that could be discovered ICly by players if they make a valid attempt. One of my flaws will result in a one shot kill against my Drives, resulting in the ship going BOOM and nothing I can do about it until I devise an IC fix for it.

Godular, what I think you're actually getting at here is two (or more) different styles of writing on these II boards. Some people, as you seem to like, to like the miles-upon-miles of details, getting down to the schematics of weapon A and the exact physics it uses., the style that uses a lot of context to provide documentation of the tech so that its completely understandable. I (and all of us) have no issue with that. But there's two different styles (or more).
There's also the people who just want to create a tech level, simply because everybody's got to have a standard, and simply write a plot and a story. Maybe they don't want to go into the technicalities of how their meson weaponry actually functions, but just want to blow something up. Maybe they'd rather prefer to actually jump in rather than explain for forty-odd OOC posts about how things really work (and like GMC said, when they are forced to, it often turns out into gobbeldy-gook).
Basically saying, try turning out your view towards others's styles besides your own. If you like to play the State-exact-stats-and-how-things-work writing, so be it. But that doesn't mean everybody around you has to as well. If someone's weapon maybe is 100% effective against something, try using something else, instead of crying foul and dragging out OOC forever.

No, I am not. I have never actually posted EXACT stats about yields for my guns or deflection capacities for my shields. But I have made certain that there is a significant level of background information to back up any claims for things that might even be remotely controversial.

Documentation doesn't NEED to be technobabble. It is not required for one to show just how 'special' saying something along the lines of 'Inverting the Microphoton Phase Polarizer initiates nucleosis within the Singularity Containment Manifold' or some wtf crap as that. Just try to describe what the durn thing can do.

Now when it comes to general tech, like Star Wars and whatnot, I will agree that truth be told such does not need entire archives of information. However, if somebody were to say that their entire fighter corps is made up of Suncrushers... people would be a tad skeptical at best. Its the same with any other controversial tech. If some guy comes out and says he has an FTLi that can straight up stop everything, there had A) Better be some explanation and B) Some limits.

Maybe it'd only work in a certain radius, or some such. Never was said.

That's the big problem though, isn't it? Not enough being said. Not enough information.

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Not much respect involved in randomly jumping a ship into into the middle of a fleet to show everyone how big your gravametric reading is and make a smartassed comment. Two-way street comments require the more experienced NS player to show respect first, generally.

And the ability to differentiate IC and OOC too. That's a big factor. People seem to whiff on that a lot nowadays, and from the way it sounds, you're no exception.

I have flaws built into all my stuff that could be discovered ICly by players if they make a valid attempt.

And you could have discovered his ships have FTL limiting devices if you hadn't been so absurdly cavalier as to jump into the middle of a whole fleet thinking it couldn't touch you.

This is like an MT player complaining his super-submarine got taken out after it surfaced in the middle of the US Pacific Fleet. It's still your fault for putting it there thinking it was indestructable, bub.

And the ability to differentiate IC and OOC too. That's a big factor. People seem to whiff on that a lot nowadays, and from the way it sounds, you're no exception.

To be honest, no IC space empire would continue to exist for long if its method of dealing with a massive fleet belonging to an unknown power which has just ruthlessly obliterated a defenceless planet was to make fun of it. Particularly when Balrogga's ship was wholly reliant on its technology working perfectly against the unknown, powerful enemy fleet if said fleet took the obvious course of action and blasted the interloper out of the sky.

Balrogga is trying to evade the consequences of his actions by claiming the massive fleet can't defeat or effectively engage his tiny ship because they haven't met him before. Yeah, and he hasn't met them before, how does he know they haven't fought other powers using his type of FTL engines for the last million years, such that they know every facet of it? If we're talking balance, how is one ship being untouchable to an entire enemy fleet supposed to be balanced?

His ship committed suicide out of abject arrogance and misguided belief in its own superiority, to the extent it believed itself a match for an entire fleet of ships with totally unknown capabilities. In any reasonable power, regardless of how 'arrogant' it was supposed to be, whoever is responsible for this action would be court martialled as soon as the inquest into the ship's inevitable destruction concluded, and diplomatic policy re: potentially hostile fleets of powerful warships would stop being conducted as if all Balrogga's ships were functionally invincible.

You missed my point though. A nation could be an utter dick IC and completely friendly OOC. The key to rectifying any situational disagreements is the OOC respect, and the communication and compromise that such should provide. Reacting to a situation OOCly because of IC actions is bad form, and I'm fairly certain THAT is mentioned on those little sticky threads at the top of this forum.

I'm not challenging that popping up in the middle of a hostile force and making some wise-crack is a suicide move. Its just that from the way you said it, that you seemed as though you were assuming Balrogga was OOCly arrogant in taking that approach.

A tactical gaffe it may be, but not inherently indicative of personal contempt.

Reacting to a situation OOCly because of IC actions is bad form, and I'm fairly certain THAT is mentioned on those little sticky threads at the top of this forum.

Actually, someone's IC actions often tell you a fair bit about their attitude; and that Balrogga obviously feels his ship had the right to simply dance around Niiatar's fleet as though it wasn't there [as born out by his objections to being told he couldn't do this] demonstrates a certain lack of respect for both the other RPer and the RP itself.

Incorrect, at least in saying that Balrogga was wholly at fault. It strikes that there was disrespect on Niiatar's part as he was rather adamant in insisting that his FTLi could stop Balrogga from uplifting, even though it is not an FTL effect.

In this case it was poor communication as to what Balrogga was doing, but when these things were explained to Niiatar he refused to alter his position essentially on the basis that he didn't care. Balrogga has offered repeatedly to speak further on the subject and even to remove his presence from the thread entirely and as far as I can tell has been nothing but cordial outside of his In Character posting.

There would need to be some major kinks worked out, and several things set in stone. What is the active radius of this purported Omni-FTLi? Does it encompass only the fleet? Does it extend out to a light-second or so? This is the kind of information I speak of when saying that RP information is important, not technobabble and random strings of multi-syllabic pseudoterminology. All that would be important is what the bloody thing can do, simply because it would assist in cutting down on disagreements and misunderstandings precisely like what has happened in the thread in question.

For this arguement, take me for an example.

My ships are incredibly powerful. I use tech that is never even heard of. I use Positronic ships and Planeswalkers, and I have bombs that can destroy large parts of the universe. I don't use them, of course.

My planets are all located in other dimensions, which none of you can reach.

I use Warpcrystal, which radiates an energy shield, in addition to my Phased-Poleran shields, which block out phased weapons.

My weapons cleave dimsional veils to release large amounts of energy, which damage ships. I have repeatedly ruptured the veil between Realspace and Slipspace, causing massive amounts of pure energy to pour out, killing thousands of people.

I have destroyed several star systems just for the fun of it, and my most powerful ships are Planeswalker Corvettes, three of which can take on a normal fleet of about one hundred.

Do I have complicated technobabble explanations for every single one of these? Yes. Do I like to relate them all again and again? No. That is why I like character RPs. You don't have to have huge amounts of technobabble.

Incorrect, at least in saying that Balrogga was wholly at fault. It strikes that there was disrespect on Niiatar's part as he was rather adamant in insisting that his FTLi could stop Balrogga from uplifting, even though it is not an FTL effect.

No, he was absolutely right. Consider this in the sense of the story for a moment, and go back and read the thread.

What's the premise? The premise is that here is a massive fleet belonging to a powerful expansionist empire that has just ruthlessly destroyed a whole planet after enslaving a billion of its people. It's about Niiatar's fleet.

Now, what happens when Balrogga's single ship appears? It completely changes the whole RP. Suddenly, it's not about Niiatar's fleet at all, it's about this single ship showing off in order to teach them a lesson. Niiatar becomes a supporting player in his own intro RP, with his fleet simply serving to show how much better Balrogga's technology is.

Ever read a bad fanfic?

Let's consider, say, the Star Trek Universe. Spock is smart, Bones is a great doctor, Kirk is good at fighting, Scotty's an ace engineer, and so on. Ok, switch to bad fanfic mode. Along comes the writer's pet character, Ensign Bob. Ensign Bob can easily out-fight Kirk and is a better starship captain than he'll ever be. Ensign Bob corrects Scotty about technical matters and Spock about everything else. Ensign Bob can diagnose anything and has Bones looking on in awe at his skills. Does this make Ensign Bob impressive as a character?

Nope. It shows a total disrespect for what's been established by just using existing characters and situations to show how you can make up something better. And that's precisely what Balrogga did: the Hegemony fleet was reduced to a bunch of buffoons for him to toy with and show who's boss.

In this case it was poor communication as to what Balrogga was doing, but when these things were explained to Niiatar he refused to alter his position essentially on the basis that he didn't care.

No, I imagine on the basis that Balrogga was undermining the entire premise of the thread and turning Niiatar into a spectator in his own RP. Balrogga's posts in the OOC thread may be politely worded, but he's essentially dictating terms to someone because he won't accept Niiatar's four hundred and forty-one ships would be able to stop his one ship from using its wankdrive.

You are essentially arguing that if you have the right technobabble explaination, it's ok to tell someone, in their own thread, that one of your ships is a match for over four hundred of theirs; and if you don't, a greater than four hundred to one numerical advantage doesn't matter because you haven't set out your 'limits.' That's utter nonsense.

There would need to be some major kinks worked out, and several things set in stone. What is the active radius of this purported Omni-FTLi? Does it encompass only the fleet? Does it extend out to a light-second or so?

It doesn't matter. What matters at this precise moment is only that it works in the very middle of the fleet, because that's where his ship is. The limits are irrelevant in the present situation, it's like demanding the effective damage radius of a depth charge that exploded while touching your submarine's hull.

All that would be important is what the bloody thing can do, simply because it would assist in cutting down on disagreements and misunderstandings precisely like what has happened in the thread in question.

You know what it can do. It can stop Balrogga's ship from doing the whole dance routine. At present, that's all that really matters. Were his ship to be attempting a sublight escape dash, then it would matter what the effective radius of the jamming was. And I'm sure then it would come up, too.

G&A: Out of curiosity, would you be so kind as to post links where you've destroyed entire star systems? Or would that be considered background information, like national history type stuff?

I myself have a bit of background stuff detailing a colossal interdimensional trading hub built and maintained by several hundred thousand separate worlds, host to a stock exchange where planetary 'investments' are bought in sold in the same way one might do with McDonald's stock, and where there are multiple mercenary bands that go around vaporizing planets in what can only be termed as the most brutal interpretation of insider training ever.

I don't do much with it though, except for flavor in various RPs.

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GMC:

And Balrogga has offered repeatedly to depart the thread, which should be more telling than any tactical faux pas, or perhaps if sufficient communication were to be conducted the entire encounter could be edited to something more suitable and less tactically wonky. At the same time though, claiming that an FTLi straight up stops any dimensional effect, even the kind of phase cloak that Balrogga was utilizing (not a port fu as was apparently inferred), despite the fact that such a thing would muck up gravitational fields of all kinds with potentially cataclysmic side effects... but that'd be getting technical.

But considering how things have been going lately among recent posters, Balrogga's entrance was one of the less agressive entrances into such a thread that I have seen. Some others seem to enjoy popping in, uttering an obligatory 'Prepare to be destroyed' and opening fire with pretty much everything.

It really all comes down to a little OOC note ahead of the entire RP. It doesn't require MIND READING or PLOT REVELATIONS to put in a 'Don't Fuck With Me' message that would hopefully cause people to more carefully consider what they intend to do in such a thread. Communication is what keeps shit from getting wierd.

And Balrogga has offered repeatedly to depart the thread, which should be more telling than any tactical faux pas

Yes, it says essentially 'if you don't accept my ship as horribly overpowered and a match for four hundred of yours then I'm not going to RP with you.'

At the same time though, claiming that an FTLi straight up stops any dimensional effect, even the kind of phase cloak that Balrogga was utilizing (not a port fu as was apparently inferred), despite the fact that such a thing would muck up gravitational fields of all kinds with potentially cataclysmic side effects... but that'd be getting technical.

Getting technical with made-up physics is silly, you can't do it. Say the FTLi includes a reality anchor as a component of a broad range of jamming systems, and that means the ship stays in this dimension. There, all needed terminology satisfied.

And given what some of Balrogga's technology would end up doing if you applied any kind of actual science to it, getting shirty over a 'potential side effect' is equally silly.

But considering how things have been going lately among recent posters, Balrogga's entrance was one of the less agressive entrances into such a thread that I have seen. Some others seem to enjoy popping in, uttering an obligatory 'Prepare to be destroyed' and opening fire with pretty much everything.

Yes, and muggers aren't murderers. That doesn't mean muggers should be tolerated, does it?

It really all comes down to a little OOC note ahead of the entire RP. It doesn't require MIND READING or PLOT REVELATIONS to put in a 'Don't Fuck With Me' message that would hopefully cause people to more carefully consider what they intend to do in such a thread.

Four hundred and forty-one ships that have just destroyed a planet radiates 'don't fuck with me.' You don't need to take any kind of course to master the obvious. Anyone who sends one ship to screw around with hundreds is clearly not taking the other nation's capabilities seriously ICly or OOCly recognising that the other player should be allowed to put up any kind of a fight.

There is a concept called the "Strategy of Technology" developed by Jerry Pournelle in his nonfiction writing, he also uses it in his science fiction. It is basically, that it is possible for a lesser nation through investing in technology, stealing other peoples technology, and changing their cultures acceptance of new ideas to overtake a more advanced nation.

I am surprised that more people don't do R & D threads to develop their technology so it makes sense. A lot of the technology in nationstates doesn't work, or is based on accepted fantasies "star wars", "star trek", "babylon 5", and "warhammer 40k" are very popular. There is very little use of hard science fiction which is stuff that might work like "Hammer's Slammers", or the "Honorverse".

Hard Sci-fi only goes so far when you get into terms of weapons that shatter worlds, ships that travel faster than light and whatever else you want to imagine from far looser Sci-fi. I choose 40k because its a brilliant base for my nation and an opportunity for me to develop my story.

Since I focus on the story and my characters, I see no point in writing out big giant R&D threads, storefronts etc detailing my military and all the details about it. I don't care about slogging through numbers. What I do care about is writing, furthering a story, thats why I RP. Not to get bogged down in the bureacracy of how other people think I ought to use and catelogue my technology

I find a lot of the R & D threads to be very interesting if done right. The problem with them a lot of the time, is that there are no risks written into them a lot of the time and they fail to tell a story. People should have things happen and things should work out differently than expected a lot of time. The advancement of science is often the story of "accidental" discovery. A list of generic things is not very interesting. The job is to test the item and imagine how it might work.

I also like the different equipment threads for buying stuff, the problem is that often the equipment described is very generic, or hasn't been thought through. One plasma rifle, then one laser sword, then one jet pack aren't very interesting. A description of the use of the item, maybe a bit about the company that made it, and a little description of what might happen when its used. The bipod mounted rail rifle can cause extreme damage to enemy infantry, it is known be able to break through lightly armored vehicles opening them like a can opener and destroy powered armor, the 20mm ferrometallic slug travels at close to .5c. Pictures are also nice but less important than a good description.

If it's travelling at .5c, then it's rather useless in atmo, considering it'd vaporize upon leaving the barrel, if not fusing with the air and exloding the gun violently...

This is exactly why the R & D threads are useful. The end of the barrel contains a special heat resistant alloy of osmium and tritanium, allowing extreme velocities, of 6000 meters second, the 20mm dart is an alloy of tungsten and ferrometallic tritanium. The osmium and tritanium alloys are only readily available from countries with a space based mining capacity, as osmium is relatively rare on planetary bodies, and readily available in asteroid fields. This gun is based on a modified TR-116 experimental federation rifle.

6 km/s is nowhere near .5c. It's only .00002c. .5c is 149,896.229 kilometers per second.

And what the bloody hell is tritanium? If you're being this scientific, do you really need to make up things?

Yes, it says essentially 'if you don't accept my ship as horribly overpowered and a match for four hundred of yours then I'm not going to RP with you.'

No it doesn't. You just prefer to see it that way.

Getting technical with made-up physics is silly, you can't do it. Say the FTLi includes a reality anchor as a component of a broad range of jamming systems, and that means the ship stays in this dimension. There, all needed terminology satisfied.

And given what some of Balrogga's technology would end up doing if you applied any kind of actual science to it, getting shirty over a 'potential side effect' is equally silly.

Indeed, though being a dick about what constitutes an FTL effect seems silly as well. Some folks use gravitonic/dimensional effects for normal STL propulsion, and even more folks use that kind of stuff for weaponry (not necessarily Singularity Bombs).

And if he puts in an FTLi, what stops the target (not necessarily Balrogga) from saying he has some form of FTLi Suppressor, chuckling a bit, and starting up a port-fu routine? After all, as long as his RPing is sufficient, he SHOULD just be able to pull it out of his ass like the FTLi was!

Yes, and muggers aren't murderers. That doesn't mean muggers should be tolerated, does it?

They shouldn't get the death sentence either.

Four hundred and forty-one ships that have just destroyed a planet radiates 'don't fuck with me.' You don't need to take any kind of course to master the obvious. Anyone who sends one ship to screw around with hundreds is clearly not taking the other nation's capabilities seriously ICly or OOCly recognising that the other player should be allowed to put up any kind of a fight.

Actually, 441 ships that have just destroyed a planet kinda means 'Looking for a Fight' depending on how ya look at it.

Does it matter. What matters is that the sides fight and die. I say die, because war without death doesn't happen. Unwillingness to face death is what causes one side to lose horribly in combat. The hidden leaves states it beautifully, the "Way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death." How about another quote this time from Sun Tzu, when two sides are evenly matched, the one that sees sorrow will win.

Of course, another big concept Sun-Tzu put forth was that being able to defeat the enemy without having to actually kill anyone is the mark of a truly masterful leader.

Also stuff like never allowing battles to be fought on equal terms, using deception out the wazoo, and how to march through a reed swamp... Oh, and that information can bring down enemies as surely as any army!

I have a question...

Why does everyone argue about stats for FT ships, weapons and so on? Why do we have to back up our argument for having a 2000 km long ship that can destroy an entire galaxy just by powering up its engines with stats when those stats might be related to theories that won't be discovered for another fifty thousand years, and the very idea of such ships or weapons is totally distanced from the laws of physics anyway?

Ok, in NS modern tech we have Super-Dreadnoughts and other stuff we can explain with theoretical technologies that might become real in the next 20 years. But there isn't even theoretical backing for anything FT, let alone FTL or FTLi, unless you search long and hard for a hole in some obscure theory proposed by some physicist or other a hundred years ago... So why even bother with explaining the tech?

I have a question...

Why does everyone argue about stats for FT ships, weapons and so on? Why do we have to back up our argument for having a 2000 km long ship that can destroy an entire galaxy just by powering up its engines with stats when those stats might be related to theories that won't be discovered for another fifty thousand years, and the very idea of such ships or weapons is totally distanced from the laws of physics anyway?

Ok, in NS modern tech we have Super-Dreadnoughts and other stuff we can explain with theoretical technologies that might become real in the next 20 years. But there isn't even theoretical backing for anything FT, let alone FTL or FTLi, unless you search long and hard for a hole in some obscure theory proposed by some physicist or other a hundred years ago... So why even bother with explaining the tech?

I don't. I, like Chronosia, prefer focusing on the story, which is also why I use and accept fantasy. I don't mind explaining what something is supposed to do, but other than that, I don't offer explainations, I don't know or understand enough to do so.

Unfortunatly, I'm one of the few who are like that. It seems the majority of NS is focused on some sort of a Plausible explaination.

I don't. I, like Chronosia, prefer focusing on the story, which is also why I use and accept fantasy. I don't mind explaining what something is supposed to do, but other than that, I don't offer explainations, I don't know or understand enough to do so.

Unfortunatly, I'm one of the few who are like that. It seems the majority of NS is focused on some sort of a Plausible explaination.

Well, most people seem to end up stealing from George Lucas or Star Trek or Babylon 5 or Warhammer 40K or any of dozens of other areas, in which all of the tech described is also approximations of what the future might be like, but other people's (and using some rather sketchy theories at that). Other people make up their own and end up inventing wanky particles like the Omicron-Alpha Particle which cancels all detection effects zomg and makes my ship appear the size of a neutrally charged electron on all screens lol, or Tituneialfuepoapgeduyudium, of which one atom explodes with a force equivalent to 1000000000000000000000000 tonnes of TNT.

(I know, I'm way generalizing here, but who cares?)

Well, most people seem to end up stealing from George Lucas or Star Trek or Babylon 5 or Warhammer 40K or any of dozens of other areas, in which all of the tech described is also approximations of what the future might be like, but other people's (and using some rather sketchy theories at that). Other people make up their own and end up inventing wanky particles like the Omicron-Alpha Particle which cancels all detection effects zomg and makes my ship appear the size of a neutrally charged electron on all screens lol, or Tituneialfuepoapgeduyudium, of which one atom explodes with a force equivalent to 1000000000000000000000000 tonnes of TNT.

(I know, I'm way generalizing here, but who cares?)

lol.
Usually the base is Sci-Fi, which is totally understanable.
Though I think all the generalizing in real-life physics that some people do or don't understand, which relegates RPs to senseless debates of numbers and fractals, makes storylines real boring, real fast. Physics is for my class, not for my free time.
People need to just go with the flow instead of whining at every corner.

Well, most people seem to end up stealing from George Lucas or Star Trek or Babylon 5 or Warhammer 40K or any of dozens of other areas, in which all of the tech described is also approximations of what the future might be like, but other people's (and using some rather sketchy theories at that). Other people make up their own and end up inventing wanky particles like the Omicron-Alpha Particle which cancels all detection effects zomg and makes my ship appear the size of a neutrally charged electron on all screens lol, or Tituneialfuepoapgeduyudium, of which one atom explodes with a force equivalent to 1000000000000000000000000 tonnes of TNT.

(I know, I'm way generalizing here, but who cares?)

yes, those shows are popular, and I might even use them as a point of explaination as a way for people to understand what I'm talking about, but I'm also trying to come up with my own stuff too.

And that's where I genuinely can't explain what I'm thinking up. I don't understand the physics or the advanced stuff required to explain it in great detail, but I don't make it any more absurd than the accepted stuff I already see in many FT threads.

I mean, if I make my stuff too strong, I'll hurt myself too, ya know?

Indeed, and when I ask for people to explain or back themselves up, I do not ASK for stats. I do not mean people should put up oodles of hard numbers and randomized strings of syllables and a suffix of -ium, simply that they should explain what they imagine the weapon to do. *I* do not like putting hard stats on anything I write simply because it invites numberwanking of a different sort ("Your weapons can deal 20kT of energy per shot? It'll take you ages to break down my shields which can handle 900 bajillion petatons of weapons firepower!").

And of course there's a couple folks I know that developed some kind of Anti-FTLi system based on their FTL simply being so massively powerful that it just punches through the barrier. But who knows what would constitute 'so massively powerful'? The specific amount isn't mentioned nor required, but at least it mentions a REASON to work.

Indeed, and when I ask for people to explain or back themselves up, I do not ASK for stats. I do not mean people should put up oodles of hard numbers and randomized strings of syllables and a suffix of -ium, simply that they should explain what they imagine the weapon to do. *I* do not like putting hard stats on anything I write simply because it invites numberwanking of a different sort ("Your weapons can deal 20kT of energy per shot? It'll take you ages to break down my shields which can handle 900 bajillion petatons of weapons firepower!").

And of course there's a couple folks I know that developed some kind of Anti-FTLi system based on their FTL simply being so massively powerful that it just punches through the barrier. But who knows what would constitute 'so massively powerful'? The specific amount isn't mentioned nor required, but at least it mentions a REASON to work.

I agree with you, completly.

I too have a way around FTLi, but I'm still thinking it out, and trying to make it seem reasonable.

I've got two, but there's limits to both of 'em. The Probability drive can break through any and all FTLi fields, but it can't get back out. The psychoportive drive simply wills the ship to its destination, and to hell with inhibitors, but in the process causes the telepath driving it to go comatose for several days.

Know what you can and can't do with what you have, I believe Sun-Tzu had an entry about that as well. "A general who knows himself but not the enemy will fail often. A general who knows the enemy but not himself will fare worse. A general who knows neither the enemy nor himself is doomed to failure. A general who knows both himself and his enemy will always prove victorious."

Or something like that. It was convoluted as all get-out.

I've got two, but there's limits to both of 'em. The Probability drive can break through any and all FTLi fields, but it can't get back out. The psychoportive drive simply wills the ship to its destination, and to hell with inhibitors, but in the process causes the telepath driving it to go comatose for several days.

Know what you can and can't do with what you have, I believe Sun-Tzu had an entry about that as well. "A general who knows himself but not the enemy will fail often. A general who knows the enemy but not himself will fare worse. A general who knows neither the enemy nor himself is doomed to failure. A general who knows both himself and his enemy will always prove victorious."

Or something like that. It was convoluted as all get-out.

Well, I never actually considered combining my Fantasy techbase, with my Science techbase, I wonder what I could come up with...

Anyways, the way I had, well, Future Tech has Teleportation technology, its not that unreasonable, heck We've already proven it exists.

What's to stop me from simply teleporting my entire ship? I believe science has something about this already, something about atoms and spinning, but I don't rightly recall it.

As I see it, the most important thing is to be willing and able to explain what anything you're using does, and ready to iron out any disagreements calmly OOC as soon as they turn up. Not how it works, since as far as we know now most of it doesn't, just what it does. Tech threads are certainly useful and admirable, and a well-done research thread should earn additional respect. Not everyone has time, however, and the important thing is to be able to explain what everything does if someone asks.

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Another fun little argument that was going on earlier is the matter of anti-grav and its energy requirements.

I was arguing that it shouldn't have to require energy to hold something at a constant height with an anti-gravity device of some sort, though 100% efficiency would be next to impossible. Mathematically, work is the scalar product of force and distance. Since there is no change in distance, there is no work done and no change in energy. This is why walls don't collapse if you forget to plug them in.

Our intuition goes against this because we have such little experience with a force perfectly balancing that of gravity and acting only upon an object held above the ground. [rough memory, source unknown] When we hold up a heavy object, we do not hold it perfectly motionless; instead, we lower it imperceptibly, then lift it back up. As our arms tire, this increases to a visible shaking. Thus, we do use energy. [/rough memory] So it seems like holding something up requires an expenditure of energy. Also, we associate forces with work, and often ignore the distance requirement.

Anyone have an argument on why it would require energy, besides inefficiencies of the technology?

As I see it, the most important thing is to be willing and able to explain what anything you're using does, and ready to iron out any disagreements calmly OOC as soon as they turn up. Not how it works, since as far as we know now most of it doesn't, just what it does. Tech threads are certainly useful and admirable, and a well-done research thread should earn additional respect. Not everyone has time, however, and the important thing is to be able to explain what everything does if someone asks.

~~~~~~
Another fun little argument that was going on earlier is the matter of anti-grav and its energy requirements.

I was arguing that it shouldn't have to require energy to hold something at a constant height with an anti-gravity device of some sort, though 100% efficiency would be next to impossible. Mathematically, work is the scalar product of force and distance. Since there is no change in distance, there is no work done and no change in energy. This is why walls don't collapse if you forget to plug them in.

Our intuition goes against this because we have such little experience with a force perfectly balancing that of gravity and acting only upon an object held above the ground. [rough memory, source unknown] When we hold up a heavy object, we do not hold it perfectly motionless; instead, we lower it imperceptibly, then lift it back up. As our arms tire, this increases to a visible shaking. Thus, we do use energy. [/rough memory] So it seems like holding something up requires an expenditure of energy. Also, we associate forces with work, and often ignore the distance requirement.

Anyone have an argument on why it would require energy, besides inefficiencies of the technology?

besides the energy neccessary to counter the constant pull of gravity? no. In fact, the less gravity pull on it, the less energy it should require.

It'd require energy as it would effectively be generating a Normal force to counter the pull of gravity. When an object is at rest on the ground, it is still accelerating downwards due to gravity. The ground is exerting a force equal and opposite to that accelerated object, creating a net force of zero. In order to balance out the equation with the object hovering in mid-air, you would need to ensure that the normal force is acting upon the object in question by virtue of the anti-grav mechanism, which would mean doing the work of the ground, without the ground.

This thread has been quite interesting to read, plenty of arguments, some of the biggest players on NS and some very wise minds. I am making a FT nation, via UII with HT to smack me down if I get too uppity(XD), and I would like to know any rules, guidelines, and such you have to provide, as I am very eager to rp with you all.

Except that the ground doesn't do any work, it just prevents gravity from doing work. If energy is expended to mimic the effect of the ground, then why doesn't the ground require an energy supply?

Except that the ground doesn't do any work, it just prevents gravity from doing work. If energy is expended to mimic the effect of the ground, then why doesn't the ground require an energy supply?

Well, because its already reached as far down as it can go, and reached the center of its own gravity. Therefore, its strong enough to hold everything else up, except in parts where it isn't.

'Solid' matter is mostly empty space. What holds up the ground are the forces between atoms and molecules. What provides the energy for these forces?

Also, look at magnets. Take a couple of circular magnets and put them on a pencil or some such, arranged so that they repel each other. Then hold it vertically, so that the lower magnet holds the upper magnet in the air. What's holding it up?

But it does have an energy supply. Its own internal pressures and the nature of the material composed in the planet itself acts as a font of kinetic energy necessary to counter an object attempting to plow its way through the planet. As gravity exerts force on an object resting on the ground, so too does the ground exert force upon the object in the opposite manner as gravity.

It might actually be easier to describe it in the terms of a single star, as the fluid dynamics enables it to be somewhat better illustrated.

A star's gravity is tremendous, holding entire solar systems together with the sheer might of its gravitational pull, however, internal pressures in the star itself prevent it from collapsing in upon itself, generating an outward force to counter the strength of its own gravity. When stars collapse, namely in the form of a Supernova, the core of the star itself simply becomes so dense that the pull of gravity overwhelms these internal pressures and even the energy keeping protons and electrons separate, causing them to bind together and form neutrons, which of course leads to neutron stars.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

In order to hold an object steady above the ground with only the anti-gravity device, it would require energy sufficient to generate an acceleration directly counter to the pull of gravity, thereby nullifying the effect of gravity for that object and enabling it to hover in free-fall, barring any secondary forces.

If you accelerate an object for two meters, it takes twice as much energy accelerating it for one meter, yes? Force dot distance. The distance is zero, so no work is done.

If energy is expended, where does it go?

I would think it would take a decent amount of energy to hold an object with antigrav. If you are looking for a theory on antigravity, Burkhard Heims star drive is supposed to generate something called graviphotons, this requires a lot of energy, basically at a certain point electromagnetism can cancel gravity, it generates something called a mesofield, but it takes a lot of energy. Think something like a fusion generator or antimatter generator to do it. In the Nation State I use a variation of Heim theory works, not the original theory but an oddball variant to make things interesting.

Consider a box on a frictionless surface. You begin pushing on it with a small amount of force, and like a good little object it moves a small distance. You have exerted force on it, and in turn have generated energy. Now some person who hates your guts for some random reason, just to be a dick, decides to come up and push on the box in the exact opposite direction and with the exact amount of force. The object is now not moving. The sum of all forces acting upon it is zero. However, there is still the matter of potential energy. For all intents and purposes, the box wants to be elsewhere, for there are forces acting on it.

The same would apply to an object hovering in mid-air. It 'wants' to be on the ground, and therefore has potential energy equivalent to the pull of gravity times the mass of the object times the distance to the ground. If no other forces were acting on it, the object would fall to the ground. However, in order to prevent this, one must exert the opposing amount of energy to prevent this object from smacking into the ground.

It does indeed have potential energy; as long as it stays at the same level, its potential energy will remain constant. What is the difference between being held up by a table, being held up by a magnet, and being held up by an anti-gravity device?

In your example with the frictionless surface, both my enemy and me have done a bit of work. However, if we pushed at the same time, the box wouldn't move at all, and no work would be done.

It does indeed have potential energy; as long as it stays at the same level, its potential energy will remain constant. What is the difference between being held up by a table, being held up by a magnet, and being held up by an anti-gravity device?

In your example with the frictionless surface, both my enemy and me have done a bit of work. However, if we pushed at the same time, the box wouldn't move at all, and no work would be done.

On the box, no.

Which is a key issue. Work is not the only definition of energy.

An object hovering in midair nevertheless 'wants' to be on the ground, it has potential energy. In such a case, how fast it is going, or how much distance is being traveled, has no bearing whatsoever on the nature of the object's energy. Its height from the ground however does.

Now, if your question were to be "Does an anti-gravity device holding an object stationary above the ground do any Work?", then the answer would be no. There is no alteration in position taking place.

It has energy, but it isn't using energy. There is no change in energy, so you don't need to provide a continuing supply of energy to maintain the effect.

Also, potential energy is relative. Is the potential energy of an object on a table determined by its height above the ground, or its height above table?

Got to go for a while, but I'll be back.

Whereupon it changes definitions once again... from work... to power

It has energy, but it isn't using energy. There is no change in energy, so you don't need to provide a continuing supply of energy to maintain the effect.

Also, potential energy is relative. Is the potential energy of an object on a table determined by its height above the ground, or its height above table?

Got to go for a while, but I'll be back.

Depends on which one you care about, really. There's no need to argue about that. If I care about the table, and Godular cares about the floor, we can both get our answers.

No it doesn't. You just prefer to see it that way.

What does it say, then? If Balrogga would rather leave a thread than accept that his ship can't be arbitarily superior to a whole fleet just because he says so, that speaks poorly of his stance re: story balance.

Indeed, though being a dick about what constitutes an FTL effect seems silly as well.

Any system that potentially allows movement of vessels or missiles between two points faster than light would constitute an FTL effect. A reality anchor might also snag dimension-shifting cloaking devices and other such effects.

Some folks use gravitonic/dimensional effects for normal STL propulsion, and even more folks use that kind of stuff for weaponry (not necessarily Singularity Bombs).

Yes, and unless stated it doesn't affect those. Presumably a matter of preventing very specific sets of effects in local space or something. Point is what it does, not how you think it might affect explainations that tend to be scientifically wonky to begin with.

And if he puts in an FTLi, what stops the target (not necessarily Balrogga) from saying he has some form of FTLi Suppressor, chuckling a bit, and starting up a port-fu routine? After all, as long as his RPing is sufficient, he SHOULD just be able to pull it out of his ass like the FTLi was!

Round the Bend once did a wonderful parody of He-Man where a battle devolved into Skeletor and He-Man taking turns in pulling out magic items that countered the magic item the other had just pulled out. The skit ended with both of them waist-deep in discarded weapons and talismans as the sun set, still at it.

If you can counter FTLi, that is part of your drive system, and will happen immediately; the system simply won't work. However, if you're doing just to magic yourself back to being arbitarily superior to an entire fleet, you are a worthless roleplayer. A fleet should be more than a match for a single tiny ship in the same tech bracket except under truly exceptional circumstances. If it's not, the owner of the single tiny ship needs to allow de-wanking of his ship or accept ridicule.

FTLi is not something that renders a ship worthless, is very easy to work around, and makes for a fun plot device that stops overwanked ships from dominating RPs for no justifiable reason.

They shouldn't get the death sentence either.

I'm sorry, the death sentence is the equivalent of having to tone down ridiculously overpowered technology to fit the RP? Being told to balance your stuff to fit into a thread is perfectly normal.

Actually, 441 ships that have just destroyed a planet kinda means 'Looking for a Fight' depending on how ya look at it.

Um...Unless you're for some reason convinced of your ability to win that fight, it says nothing of the sort. A tank division says the same, would you face down a division of unknown futuristic tanks alone with your futuristic armour and futuristic rifle because you were that damn sure they couldn't do anything about you?

But it does have an energy supply. Its own internal pressures and the nature of the material composed in the planet itself acts as a font of kinetic energy necessary to counter an object attempting to plow its way through the planet. As gravity exerts force on an object resting on the ground, so too does the ground exert force upon the object in the opposite manner as gravity.

That would be electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces. Gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces, in fact, such that you yourself can easily overcome the gravitic forces generated by an entire planet by throwing an object into the air or standing upright.

A star's gravity is tremendous, holding entire solar systems together with the sheer might of its gravitational pull

Not really. Tiny man-made chemical rockets can escape that gravity easily and exit the solar system entirely, as can many comets. The star's gravity causes the planets in the system, even those totally insignificant compared to its mass, to fall towards it so gradually that their motion isn't even particularly noticable. As said, gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Objects at rest are not the subject of action, as a rule.

In order to hold an object steady above the ground with only the anti-gravity device, it would require energy sufficient to generate an acceleration directly counter to the pull of gravity, thereby nullifying the effect of gravity for that object and enabling it to hover in free-fall, barring any secondary forces.

No, it could also exert a force equal to its mass on something to hold itself in place, use some form of buoyancy effect to hold itself up by being partly less dense than the surrounding medium, or any number of other things. Anti-gravity is just a name put on a series of Stuff That Makes Other Stuff Hover.

Also, your description is of overcoming gravity, not of anti-gravity, which is hard to define in science as nobody has a halfway-practical idea for how it could be done [no, the stupid microwave / copper tube thing doesn't work, it violates conservation of momentum]. By your current definition, all powered aircraft are antigravity devices.

'True' anti-gravity has the problem that a vessel's own gravity isn't nearly significant enough to actually do anything much, certainly not enough to cancel the effects of an entire planet's gravity on it.

Please note: this is a long post and I apologize in advance for the length. I had a lot to say and a lot of example to use for it. This is in reply to the number of posts GMC has made about me over the past few pages and thus directed at him although anyone should be able to get the reasoning behind my IC actions in the Threads he is commenting upon.



I have endured a week of attacks by you yet it does not even seem like you have carefully read the RP to extract the actual timing of the events. You took what appears to be a high and mighty stance and launched multiple attacks at me which at some point even implied I was a criminal. That is Slander in the real world.

I am perfectly aware this is ONLY JUST A GAME and people have taken things way too far. I have a multiple of times admitted I have made mistakes and suggested Niiatar had equal blame since neither of us were able to contact each other during that one night. He gave this reason which I accepted and figured he would contact me the next evening when I was online.

I can't really get on MSN tonight; if I'm not running Nortan trying to purge my system of virii and other such filth, I'm downloading some software I need for a school project in AP Euro (The legal kind people); I have to conserve bandwidth for today.

That seemed like a very good reason, RL takes precedence over game at all times, especially when school is concerned.

Unfortunately it seemed he hasn’t even tried to contact me in any way. I even checked to be sure at the time of writing this post. He has not responded to TG, IC post, OOC post, not adding me to IM, or even in this Thread. Granted, there could be real life reasons he was unable to reply but the number get exceedingly less plausible as time passes. So far it has been a week.

But during the week while I have been waiting for Niiatar to contact me in some manner, you have continued to berate me and drag me through the mud. You have called me a criminal (a mugger is not a law abiding citizen), a wanker, a godmodder, and numerous other implied terminologies for players that are undesirable to RP with. It feels almost like you have taken a personal dislike towards me and I would appreciate it to know why.

It cannot be the RP consisting of a total of 7 posts between Niiatar and myself nor a response or two on the OOC Thread. What is the real reason you seem to be attacking my character and image on NS? I would really like to know how I have wronged you so terribly to have these acquisitions thrown at me so much. I feel they are undeserved, especially since I have been so patient in waiting to be contacted by the other player in the RP.

You may wonder why I feel they are undeserved. I will show you why.


In the RP Niiatar posted his initial intro and I posted my entrance into the Thread. The method I used is the same ICly that I have done in several RP over the past few months. It is considered a typical IC response for the ships. They accept there will be either two responses to their entrances; a demand knowing who they are or a firing of their weapons. This means they are prepared to Uplift again once they detect target locks. Standard logical procedure.

In the RP, these actions occurred between my appearance and their firing:

This of course after the bout of confusion that ran rampant throughout the TacOps stations on every ship of the Niiatar Star Navy in the area. Power levels indeed indicated that not dissimilar to a small star, and its mass being just as impressive. An anomaly of supernatural origin some thought at first, but their thoughts were soon rendered irrelevant as Commodore Andrau took control.

"A ship is it?" He asks despite knowing the answer already.

"Yes, Commodore, a powerful one at that." His TacOps officer, Braane Ordath, replies quickly from his station.

"Indeed. Yet it is only one ship, one ship that has knowingly violated our territory as evident by the message they have graced us with." The Commodore says grinning as he walks in front of the storm of bloody grid lines, and small gold icons, which conglomerated into a holosphere of tactical information pertaining to ships and their locations. He looks over the area not highlighted by a digital cube, emphasizing an area of interest that receives a great deal more attention from the scanners and sensors than any other.

"Yes Commodore, just one ship. Deep space scanners reveal nothing more thus far." Braane says with the same grin spread across his pale face.

"All ships, fire at will. These interlopers shall pay for their impudence!" Andrau exclaims sternly; his words being relayed instantly through the fleets NATcom system, to the waiting ears of starships barons and TacOps officers.

Firing solutions are soon devised in a fraction of the time it took Andrau to give his orders.

As you can tell, there is a period of confusion and then the sensor readings. Braane walked across the bridge and “looks over the area not highlighted by a digital cube” indicating he was thinking about what the display showed. He got confirmation from the Tactical Officer of the readings before issuing his command. The ships of the fleet then engaged their weapons locks and fired.

There is clearly quite a bit of time passing in this and it is greatly larger than the time it takes a prepared crew to uplift the ship.

While in T-Space, I moved my ship to near the command vessel so there would be fewer shots taken at me. I arranged for no weapons to be used. There was a single targeting laser (think of a laser pointer or laser sight used today) being used. It probably could run off a couple watch batteries. I designated the set plan of Emerging, using the laser pointer, and then Uplifting. Clearly a short term maneuver. Here is my words in the post showing there was no weapons being used so their power was available to the Drive to uplift:

“Weapons, I want a targeting laser to strike the bridge of the command vessel each time we Emerge. There will be no other weaponry other than that.”

”Yes Sir, resolving and calculating target based upon our movements so it will automatically synched before we Emerge.”

“Do we have a target inside their vessel yet?”

“Negative, still scanning. Unknown if there is a viable space that is unoccupied.”

“Take us to the next position and have us Emerge into Real Space. Be ready to flicker out ASAP.

This shows the plan. It designated the procedure to be used and there is no power drain from weapons because there is only a single targeting laser being used. No other weapons.

Niiatar’s response was as follows:

"Incoming fire!" Various TacOps officers say, almost in unison, on each NSN ship.

“Evade, evade! Counter with point defense systems!” Various captains respond in turn.

“I expected that they might have been planning something such as this, though I never anticipated that they would be able to move this quickly, so I discounted the possibility.” Andrau says from his seat, staring into orderly fleet that had turned entirely chaotic on the tactical holosphere.

“Yes, Ser, they are tagging our vessels with some sort of targeting laser, the observation deck in fact.” Braane said after a few moments of analyzing the information collected from the sensor systems from other NSN ships too far away to be affected by the disturbances caused by the close presence of the Balroggan vessel, something that was normal for Niiatar forces, from dual ship patrols to warfleets such as this; sharing sensor information through heavily encrypted and secure channels incase something had happened to any one ships detection systems.

He stands up and walked towards the digital representation of the intruder that has so disrupted his operation. “Probably believe it to be the bridge. Granted my office is up there, and contains trinkets and other valuables that mean much to me, and would be utterly devastating if they were to be lost, yet no matter; what much be done must be done.” The old Commodore says as his eyes run along each ghostly icon.

While it was traditional in some design cultures to have vital systems, such as the bridge, so easily exposed to enemy fire, the same was not true of Niiatar ships, which were built with utility in mind: they were big, tough, heavily armed, and survivable. What the Balroggans were currently hitting, with great accuracy indeed, was an observation deck. The bridge was encased in layer, after layer, after layer of Armour plating near certain junctions of power distribution, which made accurately targeting the bridge nigh impossible unless one had a great amount of time on their hands, and if the ship just let them do it without reprisal.

“Have all ships throw up inhibitor fields, full power, in fact order them to divert power from non-critical systems into the inhibitor generators; I don’t want that ship going anywhere ever again.” Andrau says, now pacing about the bridge at rapid pace. “Also, only have ships target and fire upon the enemy vessel, that will not be doing so from a vector that bisects our own vessel. As far as that goes, back away full speed, and have the siege turrets fire upon the vessel with targeting data gathered from the scanner buoys, and all the other ships close enough to collect accurate information. Don’t forget to dump all power from every weapon other than siege into the shields and armor! Go, go!” He continues with great urgency.

“Sir.” Braane says in a tone that makes one think he is totally oblivious to the goings on around him, focusing so intently on the order the Commodore had given him, and carrying them out as quick as was physically possible.

Again a seemingly length of time happened and I accepted this response being that I had plenty of time to pull out on my planned action and then while I was relocating to a new position in T-Space his inhibitor fields were activated. It is also interesting that a simple targeting laser got through his sheilds meaning he allowed it to. Niiatar could have simply stated the laser was stopped by the sheilds he must have.

The take on his FTLi I have been using is based on his posted description:

Weapon’s fire lanced towards the Balroggan ship from a great deal fewer angles than before, now from just those vectors that would not hit the Arnioth in the event it somehow managed to escape, an action nearly impossible now due to the all-encompassing inhibitor fields that made escaping the bindings of physics that prevented faster-than-light travel, rather impossible. All this while the battleship retreated back from the extremely dense ship with massive kinetic siege-cannons that were swiveling their great maws of destruction towards the obsidian warship using targeting data gathered from friendly sources outside the affects perturbing the reversing ship’s own sensor systems.

It only states it prevented ship from traveling faster than light. I took this description he posted to being the effects of the FTLi. He knew I was Uplifting but had not bothered to post ICly checking out where I was Uplifting to. He knew I was going “Otherwhere” with my ship but did not even note that as part of the FTLi, only it prevented my ship from going faster than 300,000 Kilometers per second.

After the Inhibitor fields went up, I moved the ship away since I was still in T-Space from the singular jumping I executed before they went up (the event of the inhibitors prevented me from reappearing). I moved myself beyond his extreme long range figuring the FTLi field was not that far (again no description provided) and prepared a drone to send to Real Space to see if they are ready to talk or if they want something to shoot at. The preparation would have taken time but I failed to mention that in my post. There has not been anything said about it so there is no contention about that aspect. I even posted several aspects about it he would have normally needed to discover ICly to alleviate any concerns in the RP.

I have been waiting for Niiatar to post anything else for about a week.

Honestly, I did not know he was an experienced player at first and wanted to ICly point out the waste of a planet without using it for its resources was inefficient. The taking of a billion prisoners would tax his economy trying to feed them. I mentioned both these in the OOC Thread and he seemed OK with the motive. It is in Post #15 of the OOC Thread if you care to read it.

Now that you know my IC point of view can you make a better judgment of what happened? The details make all the difference when you look closely at them and take them into context with each other.

I would still like to know why you are targeting me unfairly.

You took what appears to be a high and mighty stance and launched multiple attacks at me which at some point even implied I was a criminal. That is Slander in the real world.

Were it actually true, yes. At no point did I ever state you were a criminal of any description, and if you're talking about the mugger / murderer analogy, that would be the Extended Analogy fallacy.

You have called me a criminal (a mugger is not a law abiding citizen)

See above. I never claimed you actually were a mugger. Though presumably you're going to complain about the last sentence of this post too, despite that it's an example and not an accusation.

a godmodder

I'd know if I'd claimed such because I wouldn't have spelled it that way if I did. So, here goes with the List Of Things You Apparently Don't Think Are Godmodes:


You told him your ship was able to teleport into the middle of his fleet without being detected beforehand.
You told him that he would detect your power levels as 'near the upper range of the scale,' essentially telling him that your ship was vastly more powerful than any of his own.
You told him you'd knocked out his command ship's targeting sensors when you came back into realspace.
You told him where the bridge of his ship was, despite that putting the bridge on the very outside of a starship is aggressively ridiculous.
You told him that his command ship didn't contain any open space large enough for your vessel to fit in.
You told him how his own FTLi worked.

And all in his own thread, that he's supposed to be in charge of. Ya, no Godmoding there at all.

It cannot be the RP consisting of a total of 7 posts between Niiatar and myself nor a response or two on the OOC Thread. What is the real reason you seem to be attacking my character and image on NS?

Because your RP thus far in that thread was a non-stop display of horrible RP etiquette directed towards someone you thought was a newbie, and Godular then went on to defend you with patently untrue statements about RP 'rules.'

If all promising newbies to NS FT are greeted with scorn and derision the second they do anything that isn't part of the script you're writing for them, that's bad. Try to imagine yourself in the same position: you're new here, and here's Big Man On Campus coming into your thread telling you that you have to play his way and the hell with your ideas. And when you try to tell him what you want in this thread, his friends barge in and tell you that's not how NS works.

Would you still be here now? I doubt it.

This means they are prepared to Uplift again once they detect target locks. Standard logical procedure.

Jumping into the middle of a fleet you know nothing of the capabilities of hoping you'll be able to jump back out if things get hot is anything but logical. You were totally reliant on being able to have everything your own way for your ship to survive: if anything went wrong, it was toast.

Logical procedure is to minimise risk to the vessel at all times, not throw yourself into the line of fire because you're that sure they can't touch you.

While in T-Space, I moved my ship to near the command vessel so there would be fewer shots taken at me.

Because obviously there was no chance he could fire shots at your ship while it was in there, or Reality Anchor it to yank it right back out. Again, this isn't logical planning, this is assuming your ships are so much more powerful than anyone else's that they can't possibly be targeted or hit.

This shows the plan. It designated the procedure to be used and there is no power drain from weapons because there is only a single targeting laser being used. No other weapons.

So you weren't building up charges in all weapons in case the enemy knew how to hit you while you were outside realspace? What if it turned out his ships could target you and hit you while you were jumping about? I think he was excessively generous to you in accepting that, personally, so you have no right to complain about his FTLi at all.

It is also interesting that a simple targeting laser got through his sheilds meaning he allowed it to. Niiatar could have simply stated the laser was stopped by the sheilds he must have.

Since a shield has to be semi-permiable to allow light through it [otherwise it wouldn't be able to see out] that would be because the power wasn't significant enough to trigger it, I imagine.

The take on his FTLi I have been using is based on his posted description:

One he clarified shortly afterwards. I also note you didn't highlight 'in the event it somehow managed to escape, an action nearly impossible now.' It was obvious what was ment by that.

It only states it prevented ship from traveling faster than light.

It also states it made escape nearly impossible for your ship, which you ignored completely.

After the Inhibitor fields went up, I moved the ship away since I was still in T-Space from the singular jumping I executed before they went up (the event of the inhibitors prevented me from reappearing).

It should have yanked you right back into realspace, speaking in terms of what FTLi actually does. Then again, you didn't bother to ask him what the effect of his FTL inhibitor would be on your ship because you were too busy complaining it wouldn't work.

Given that you essentially told him how his own FTLi worked, I find it amusing you're so offended at an implication of Godmoding; that's clearly precisely what you did.

Honestly, I did not know he was an experienced player at first and wanted to ICly point out the waste of a planet without using it for its resources was inefficient.

There are much better ways then teleporting into the middle of his fleet. There aren't really many worse ones, in fact.

Now that you know my IC point of view can you make a better judgment of what happened? The details make all the difference when you look closely at them and take them into context with each other.

Well, not really. You still ignored that the FTLi would 'make escape nearly impossible,' you still gave yourself technological superiority to the extent you wanted to dance unharmed around a whole fleet, and you still told another player the internal layout and sensor limits of his own ships, despite knowing nothing about them.

Now, you can argue that he didn't ask you if his FTLi could work, but given the number of things you didn't ask him and instead told him, the most obvious reply would involve some note about casting stones while living in glass houses.

I would still like to know why you are targeting me unfairly.

Complex question fallacy. Have you stopped beating your wife?

Honestly, I did not know he was an experienced player at first and wanted to ICly point out the waste of a planet without using it for its resources was inefficient.Bold by me

Um.

You mean you judge people by their age & postcount, not by what they write?

You also consider Sephrioth the epitome of RP skill, I take it?

Um, on a bedtime note... is this an FT discussion, scientific theory symposium, or just... well, you know... ...'talk'. =-o=

A lot of technical jargon and reading between the lines going on here. Wonder if Lucas and other sci-fi producers should be taking notes. =^^=

I'm done.. off to bed. =zZ=

Bold by me

Um.

You mean you judge people by their age & postcount, not by what they write?

You also consider Sephrioth the epitome of RP skill, I take it?

Of course, for all his faults and fallacies, SeaQuest was a passable writer. Perhaps we should have considered him in a better light on that basis rather than with respect to all the headaches he caused for pretty much everybody on NS?

What I suspect Balrogga means is that at that particular point in time it would have been nigh-impossible to tell whether Niiatar was laying waste just for Shits and Giggles or whether it was an integral part of his story thingamajiggerbob, and so he just decided to enter in for little other purpose than to comment on it.

Ok one, if you actually read the thread you would note that Balrogga did not intend to fight the entire fleet to a standstill with one ship. Now as age and postcount go, actually we do judge it in some means. Ie this way we dont wind up with 06ers with militaries as powerful as 02. Also its Based on writing here, since balrogga has done years of writing to these ends, he is entitled to that. Niiatar being totally unknown and new is using stock ships.

Sorry but this is how its played out here in II, its not "peer regulated". The fact is if you read the thread you would know then that Balrogga intended to hold the ships in place, to prevent them from moving out and attacking. The truth is many people told Niiatar how to counter this. Instead Electron decided to get a mod to deal with it for him. This changes nothing, the fact is Niiatar could have easily won, but instead he chose not to be "wanky". Well let me see, godmodding is one of two things. Invincibility and calling casualties. I read that in the stickies. Now as far as invincibility goes, as I said this is cheap trick. The kind of trick that only ever works once against a particular enemy. Because FTL jump in and out eventually you go, oh power rating here, or FTL sensors detect this after it jumps back in, target that area after firing, or some other such thing. In which case if they had done that, bal would have likely started to take casualties, lost the ship or what not.

Sorry to interject but I have to, because I have actually read the thread and been talking to Bal about this. Electron, GMC you have no right to call balrogga down simply because you dont like his playstyle. He isnt godmodding, trust me because I know his ships can be destroyed, I have seen it. As for relative age and power, well get used to it. In II the measure of power is based on the amount of writing you do. This in turn makes age majour, however by writing I mean..actual story writing.

Which is what most members of ESUS and the like have done, as well as people like the vascilians. We write about what we have, not just two paragraphs but in stories. Niiatar being relatively new could easily get tough and powerful, he just has to write. Its relative, 02ers who dont write as much as 06ers will get less respect then them as far as it goes.

The old SQ style [phaser coils 135 days to completion]...doesnt count. Actual story and writing is what matters and Balrogga has been doing that non stop for two years. So seriously, enough is enough. Electron, ignore Balrogga if you dont like it and he will do the same back. Go play with someone else. This isnt peer regulated Role play, go play where it is if you dont like the way it is here.

PS

The reason I say that bal is entitled to having better stuff then niiatar is, because very little has been written on niiatar, yes things have and there are things to go with it. However with little writing and backup, I would say its safe to assume that balroggas ships, equipped with fantastic tech are better 1 for one. Not only this I would say simply that Niiatar should do what he was told to do, and then he gets his zOMG win. I used to be biased like this by ooc propaganda from others. The only thing being biased against writing over peer oriented does is make you a poor rper and unimaginative. Bal never, ever thought his one ship could win the fight, that was not the point. Only to hold the fleet for a little while.

You completely miss the point in this. Godular nailed it on the head. Der Angst, as for Sephrioth? Seriously that is unwarranted, you lack any respect. The people on this forum do not lack respect for others, that is why they play with him. You have no right to insult him.

Ok one, if you actually read the thread you would note that Balrogga did not intend to fight the entire fleet to a standstill with one ship.

If you actually read the thread you will note that one ship was effectively invulnerable to that fleet and showing off that it could do whatever it liked.

Based on writing here, since balrogga has done years of writing to these ends, he is entitled to that. Niiatar being totally unknown and new is using stock ships.

No, neither of those things are even remotely accurate. And what the hell are 'stock ships' in futuretech, anyway? The many faster-than light spaceships found in real life?

Sorry but this is how its played out here in II, its not "peer regulated". The fact is if you read the thread you would know then that Balrogga intended to hold the ships in place, to prevent them from moving out and attacking.

No, there's no clear statement as to what Balrogga intended to do at all. He had one ship. If the whole fleet had jumped out of the system the minute he jumped in, what would he have done to stop them?

The truth is many people told Niiatar how to counter this. Instead Electron decided to get a mod to deal with it for him.

I was not approached regarding this matter by anyone, actually. But thanks for the totally pointless allegation.

This changes nothing, the fact is Niiatar could have easily won, but instead he chose not to be "wanky". Well let me see, godmodding is one of two things. Invincibility and calling casualties. I read that in the stickies.

Wrong. Master definition of godmoding is 'saying what happens to other people's stuff.' If I told you all your ships were three inches long and armed with peanuts, that would be Godmoding, because I would be telling you what your own stuff was like.

Now as far as invincibility goes, as I said this is cheap trick. The kind of trick that only ever works once against a particular enemy.

Who says it even works once against a particular enemy?

Because FTL jump in and out eventually you go, oh power rating here, or FTL sensors detect this after it jumps back in, target that area after firing, or some other such thing. In which case if they had done that, bal would have likely started to take casualties, lost the ship or what not.

Who says there's any such signal, or that such a signal can be detected by the sensors Niiatar has? Are you telling me every single type of FTL that anyone could possibly invent must have a trackable sensor echo of some sort? If so, how on earth is that different from saying you have a system that can jam it?

Electron, GMC you have no right to call balrogga down simply because you dont like his playstyle. He isnt godmodding, trust me because I know his ships can be destroyed, I have seen it.

He is. He's telling Niiatar how his ships are laid out, what their sensor limits are, and how their FTLi works. And since when aren't you allowed to criticise another RPer for being violently unfair to somone they think is a newbie?

As for relative age and power, well get used to it. In II the measure of power is based on the amount of writing you do. This in turn makes age majour, however by writing I mean..actual story writing.

No, in II the rules are the same as in NS. What you mean is in your clique people place amount of writing as a yardstick of power. Well, good for them, but that's not a rule they can randomly impose on the rest of the forum.

Its relative, 02ers who dont write as much as 06ers will get less respect then them as far as it goes.

From you, maybe. That's not a rule in II as a whole or NS as a whole, and trying to enforce it on others who don't want is is poor etiquette at very best.

Actual story and writing is what matters and Balrogga has been doing that non stop for two years.

No, that doesn't count either if the goal is to produce a nation as completely overpowered and game-unbalancing as possible. And so what? He's been writing for two years because he found the site two years ago, that doesn't mean a newbie who found the site two hours ago should be forced to acknowledge he is superior, or that he should be forced to acknowledge the superiority of someone who has been writing for longer than him.

NS is not a race. When you find it doesn't govern everything from technology to RP limits, and were that rule to actually become popular the site would basically die because it would be so unfriendly to newbies.

So seriously, enough is enough. Electron, ignore Balrogga if you dont like it and he will do the same back. Go play with someone else. This isnt peer regulated Role play, go play where it is if you dont like the way it is here.

So you're arguing that a group of arbitary rules laid down by a small group of RPers and designed purely to benefit them should be regarded as set in stone regardless of game balance concerns or general issues regarding wankery? You think older players should be allowed to do whatever they like to newbies because they found the site sooner?

I'm so glad the rules don't work like that. And the old 'if you don't like this ignore him' is just the lazy get-out it always is. If you don't like the way someone RPs, explain why and see if they'll change for you.

Not only this I would say simply that Niiatar should do what he was told to do, and then he gets his zOMG win.

Do you always say that small nations should accept larger ones dictating the plotlines of their own RPs? That's horrendous RP etiquette.

The only thing being biased against writing over peer oriented does is make you a poor rper and unimaginative.

No, quality of writing is important here too. Balrogga's writing in that thread is not quality, though, and the fact that he's written other good stuff doesn't automatically mean every word he types turns to gold. That's a ridiculous way to think.

Of course, for all his faults and fallacies, SeaQuest was a passable writer.°_O

What I suspect Balrogga means is that at that particular point in time it would have been nigh-impossible to tell whether Niiatar was laying waste just for Shits and Giggles or whether it was an integral part of his story thingamajiggerbob, and so he just decided to enter in for little other purpose than to comment on it.It's nice to see that you manage to disrespect Niitar's posts even in an occ argument with, uh, me. Rather than him.

But, this aside... The issue is not that Balrogga entered - that's what (Most) threads are for, after all -, nor that he entered (Allegedly) just to comment of it - I'm doing that myself on a reasonably frequent basis.

The issue is how he entered (Stupidly), and how he tried to force his own rules upon the thread starter, in order to avoid the stupidity from being fatal.

You see, there's a slight difference between 'Hrm. There's an aggressively hegemonising entity in the region - lets jump our SHINY ship right into the middle of their planetary assault fleet and mock them! We're so [Goku666 quote here], they can't touch us, anyway!' and 'Hrm, there's an aggressively hegemonising entity in the region - lets contact them by entering the system a few billion kilometres off their position & hailing. Maybe seed the local Oort cloud with munitions, too, before starting our do-gooders routine...'

Which was my approach when dealing with a well-known technology base and thus capabilities. In case of an utterly unknown technology base, it'd be more like 'release a few black-body drones and subcraft from a few billion kilometres off and observe them, figuring out what their approximate capabilities are and where they came from'.

Lets be honest here guys, Niiatar made an invasion thread that looked pretty damn open. Bal came in using his own ships. Do try to argue with me if you like. Just remember there are far far more nations in II FT then there are in Sol FT. That is whats known as majourity. Yes he came in to his thread. The fact is that there is a trick, a simple trick to defeat what Balrogga is doing. Now the fact is niiatar is not going to do this, meaning that maybe Niiatar should not post in the forum where that trick, being able to FTL, shoot and FTL out again is common place and easy to beat.

FTLi is almost godmodding, thats why you have to have different types of it. Thats the accepted ruling from hundreds of players on that forum. Electron, seriously if you dont like the way people play here, then leave. By writing, we mean amount of backstory and writing as well. An 06er could put out a huge backstory and be powerful, whereas an 02 with no backstory [wont mention the many names I know of] would be weak. II is about what you can do.

If you are the commander of 1 ship against 411 being ordered to halt them, you will look at the odds. Options? Assymetrical warfare. Take advantage of whatever you have to stem the tide. I know tactics arent accepted by everyone, especially misguided folks who use math for story, however they are accepted in II. This is a tactic, one that is easy enough to beat, Niiatar...we told you how. We are done here. Remember Plot beats mathematics any day of the week.

You see, there's a slight difference between 'Hrm. There's an aggressively hegemonising entity in the region - lets jump our SHINY ship right into the middle of their planetary assault fleet and mock them! We're so [Goku666 quote here], they can't touch us, anyway!' and 'Hrm, there's an aggressively hegemonising entity in the region - lets contact them by entering the system a few billion kilometres off their position & hailing. Maybe seed the local Oort cloud with munitions, too, before starting our do-gooders routine...'

Or, considering Balrogga's present IC stance in general, give them pointers.

Now as age and postcount go, actually we do judge it in some means. Ie this way we dont wind up with 06ers with militaries as powerful as 02. Also its Based on writing here, since balrogga has done years of writing to these ends, he is entitled to that. Niiatar being totally unknown and new is using stock ships.The irony of someone who - after years of inactivity - came in rushing, arbitrarily declaring himself 'Better than all of sol combined' (Including nations older than him, of course) and ranting about having spent 'Hundreds of years' refining his technology (With no RP'd development whatsoever) saying this is... Not lost on me.

Jesus, you've balls writing this.

OTOH, I must admit that you RPing your opponents in the war that eventually got you banned from the Mars boards as freezing solid for fifteen minutes flat, and not recognising half of the action taken by them kinda fits the style of play discussed here, so it's maybe not perfectly out of place for you to state the above.

Instead Electron decided to get a mod to deal with it for him.Believing that Electron is the source of all evil doesn't make it so. Keep your paranoia in #stageleft.

however by writing I mean..actual story writing.You mean that thing of which Niiatar has done more in his intro post than Balrogga did in the entire thread?

And - having read the Kython one -, I'm decidedly unimpressed by Balrogga's 'techthreads'. I know he can write - seen that elsewhere -, but what he posted in Niiatar's thread, or in his techthreads, or on Mars, is not an example of it.

Lets be honest here guys, Niiatar made an invasion thread that looked pretty damn open. Bal came in using his own ships. Do try to argue with me if you like.

Balrogga came in and proceeded to try to take over the RP and make it purely about his ship. When called on this by the thread originator, he reacted with shock that the originator of a thread would expect some control over their own intro RP.

Just remember there are far far more nations in II FT then there are in Sol FT. That is whats known as majourity.


Appeal to popularity. A majority isn't necessarily right.
Sweeping generalisation. Not all FTers in II agree with your policy on what's allowed.
NS FT doesn't all take place in the Solar System, last I checked, and it's certainly not true that no II RP takes place there.


Yes he came in to his thread. The fact is that there is a trick, a simple trick to defeat what Balrogga is doing.

Who says that trick works on any given FTL system? Are you claiming you can make broad generalisations about the shortcomings of any FTL system anyone on this forum might ever invent?

Now the fact is niiatar is not going to do this, meaning that maybe Niiatar should not post in the forum where that trick, being able to FTL, shoot and FTL out again is common place and easy to beat.

Or maybe you should be willing to accept there's more than one way to skin a cat?

FTLi is almost godmodding, thats why you have to have different types of it. Thats the accepted ruling from hundreds of players on that forum.

Garbage. You have about three, so far.

Electron, seriously if you dont like the way people play here, then leave. By writing, we mean amount of backstory and writing as well. An 06er could put out a huge backstory and be powerful, whereas an 02 with no backstory [wont mention the many names I know of] would be weak. II is about what you can do.

So while you're establishing that backstory you have to be weak even if the story you're establishing is that you're strong? Are you even listening to yourself? How are you ever supposed to establish a strong FT nation if you're not allowed to be strong until you're written out an enormous amount of RP, even though according to you this RP can only emphasise how weak you are?

If you are the commander of 1 ship against 411 being ordered to halt them, you will look at the odds. Options? Assymetrical warfare. Take advantage of whatever you have to stem the tide.

The fact that there's no tide to stem as the ships are nowhere near you and entirely unconcerned with you would be the better option, actually.

This is a tactic, one that is easy enough to beat, Niiatar...we told you how. We are done here. Remember Plot beats mathematics any day of the week.

Plot doesn't beat anything if plot is foisted on you in your own thread. In any case, back atcha: why can't you be bothered to write about a new weakness, instead insisting on the same old, same old? Is that this 'writing' you're crowing about, ordering people to replicate the same thing everyone else did?

Just remember there are far far more nations in II FT then there are in Sol FT. That is whats known as majourity.... And?

Oh, and it's 'Majority'.

Now the fact is niiatar is not going to do this, meaning that maybe Niiatar should not post in the forum where that trick, being able to FTL, shoot and FTL out again is common place and easy to beat.Or maybe it's his thread, and is therefore under his rules? As opposed to a bunch of oldbies derailing everything in sight because 'They've established it and it's their forum'?

Which, incidentally, it isn't.

If you're incapable of showing basic courtesy and balancing yourself when entering a thread, leave NS. NOW.

FTLi is almost godmodding, thats why you have to have different types of it. Thats the accepted ruling from hundreds of players on that forum.Name them. I doubt you'll manage to hit 'Twenty', though.

Also, I should've known that you consider FTL Interdiction 'Godmodding' and just FTL missile'd your fortress rocks from somewhere behind Pluto...

Wouldn't have been a godmode at all, would it?

An 06er could put out a huge backstory and be powerful, whereas an 02 with no backstory [wont mention the many names I know of] would be weak.Be careful. You might drown in the irony.

I know tactics arent accepted by everyone, especially misguided folks who use math for story, however they are accepted in II.Which Niiatar did... Not.

Whoops. You fail.

And incidentally, whacking your dick on a keyboard and inventing hundreds of ships whenever you need them isn't story. Conversely, being aware of the relationship between distance and time doesn't equal math.

Ok as for naming them, how about the GE, ESUS, GFFA and the independents who play on either side of that line. Now Der angst, blanket ftli is almost godmode, however I never said it was full on god mod.

As for being nice and not rude? Now correct me if I am wrong but I believe if you asked the other people involved in this thread if you were being rude, they would say yes, you were Der Angst.

Time distance blah blah. Seriously, this is not the point. The point is this, you really have no reason to be in this argument unless you were asked. I tried to be civil, and yes I am being civil at this moment. You however are never civil Rezo. Ever. The fact is Electron could not win his own battle. In storylines and plot its actually you know..fun and cool to have a single ship desperately trying to hold an enemy force. Its called plot and story.

You want to continue to do this, thats fine but just remember, I dont look like a jerk here Der Angst, however every time you post in this thread, you do and to a very, very wide audience. Just remember the vast majority of FT players are in II. Thats a fact you are just going to have to deal with. This however is not "peer regulated" or "U Luz cuz I dun Like u!!". The fact is Balrogga was trying to do something in character of his nation, stopping a large warfleet from ransacking some poor planet. His crews are fighting desperately with every trick at their disposal.

Seriously Der Angst, my biggest gripe with you at this point is the insult directed to sephrioth. I am sorry but you use his name too often to describe II in general and you have stated that its not an excuse to be dyslexic. Well then I am going to say to you now,there is not an excuse for your own behaviour. None whatsoever, consider also the fact that alot of people are going to be reading what you write here.

Let Neutron fight his own battles here. After all you and the rest just love badmouthing II players for hours and hours and hours on IRC, why do you even bother playing with them if your sooo much better Der Angst, Electron too for that matter. All neutron has to do is ignore balrogga, thats it or he can do what he was told would work. He doesnt need to make this in to a giant flame fest, you dont either.

We dont need a thread that has been used constructively by II players closed because of Der angst and Electrons problems with II play style. Dont like it, fine then leave and dont come back.

Also, inventing hundreds of ships whenever I need them? When did I do that...every single thing I have has been written about. The grahfsberg navy for instance is a force quickly put in to place from ships the DCNT didnt need and the completed drone ships. GTFOA same thing. They are all in threads I wrote Rezo, too bad you didnt take the time to read them.

Also as for ignoring actions? I ignored no actions, the war got me banned because I refused to go "lawl I luz, I suk cuz u dun like me." This was then considered "disruptive behaviour." The fact is simple, you people ignored MY attacks, not the other way around. So to be honest your little saying is wrong. Also coming back after years of inactivity? Sorry Rezo, I was inactive for 9 months while I was doing ooc things. Ooc is real life.

As for better? Well I am so sorry when I wont accept that a four line wonder is better then I am when they barge themselves in to an cooperative RP. Not only this, the fact that a certain person edited a post to remove the reason for some of my actions was actually the reason for the ignore. Believe me boyo, I have the thread screenshotted.

Now, I realize I've got no real interests in this thread...but I've noticed something pretty epic here.

We got Der Angst, a player who always makes it clear that he hates II...posting in II. We got Niiatar complaining because Balroggan ship commanders are using the space equivalent of U-Boat Warfare. And we have this excellent concept of "Peer regulated roleplay" being thrown around.

Now if I may arbitrate a few things...

Der Angst, if you hate II so much...why do you post here? You're obviously having no fun at all, it's completely pointless for you to take part in these arguments. In Short, if you don't like II...get lost and quit pestering these poor people.

Niiatar. Lay some mines, fires some depth charges, and counter Balrogga with proven and true tactics...Numbers don't always win you the war, take the Spanish Armada...Try to outfight them before calling for arbitration dude! Shit like this just destroys the flow of the story...I'm not trying to tear you down or anything, but did you try to talk to Balrogga in PM or anything? I haven't really been present, I'm just reacting to alot of stuff I see as not necessary.

...Peer Regulated Roleplay cannot exist in a Freeform game. Nationstates always was and always shall be freeform. It's a cooperative game where roleplays should be conducted with the consent of the other player...Simple Telegrams or Instant Messaging makes a huge difference...Niiatar knows this as, in the past, we've done some successful RPs that way.

Peer Regulated Roleplay is a failure already. I don't recommend it be pushed any further. Remember Highschool? Highschool was peer regulated. This game will turn into Highschool...a place I dropped out of because it sucked so bad.

Ok as for naming them, how about the GE, ESUS, GFFA and the independents who play on either side of that line.

And obviously they all agree with your idea that it's impossible for a nation to ever become strong because they have to write a lot of story posts, but they can't be strong in any of them, because they haven't written enough story yet.

Time distance blah blah. Seriously, this is not the point. The point is this, you really have no reason to be in this argument unless you were asked.

Yes, stupid things like whether you have a good point or sound arguments in a thread with ALL ARE WELCOME TO USE THIS in the topic are clearly irrelevant.

I tried to be civil, and yes I am being civil at this moment. You however are never civil Rezo. Ever.

Style over substance fallacy. And you're being civil by...


Telling Rezo he's uncivil.
Telling Rezo he looks like a jerk.
Accusing him of spending 'hours and hours and hours' badmouthing others.


Yeah, personal attacks and blatant insults are civil if you word them nicely, right?

The fact is Electron could not win his own battle.

No, the fact is Balrogga redefined the battle so Niiatar couldn't win it.

In storylines and plot its actually you know..fun and cool to have a single ship desperately trying to hold an enemy force. Its called plot and story.

Not when there's no reason for the single ship to be trying to hold the 'enemy' force to begin with. A story about a single soldier standing in the middle of a tank division saying 'I'll take you all on' just makes the single soldier look like an idiot.

You want to continue to do this, thats fine but just remember, I dont look like a jerk here Der Angst, however every time you post in this thread, you do and to a very, very wide audience.

I'm sure he cares far more about that than about being right. But then you haven't bothered to address anything he or myself have actually said, instead trying to take the moral high ground even though that's meaningless if you're wrong.

Just remember the vast majority of FT players are in II. Thats a fact you are just going to have to deal with. This however is not "peer regulated" or "U Luz cuz I dun Like u!!".

It's still free-form roleplay and originator controls thread, since those are the rules of both RP forums.

The fact is Balrogga was trying to do something in character of his nation, stopping a large warfleet from ransacking some poor planet. His crews are fighting desperately with every trick at their disposal.

The planet had already been ransacked by the time he arrived. Didn't you tell others off for not reading the thread? How was he supposed to stop something that had already happened?

Seriously Der Angst, my biggest gripe with you at this point is the insult directed to sephrioth. I am sorry but you use his name too often to describe II in general and you have stated that its not an excuse to be dyslexic.

It's not. Dyslexia isn't an excuse for anything; you don't use learning difficulties as a cheap card to make people feel sorry for you.

Well then I am going to say to you now,there is not an excuse for your own behaviour. None whatsoever, consider also the fact that alot of people are going to be reading what you write here.

You've spent an awful lot of time attacking his behaviour and dealing with pointless granstanding [holy hell, I bet nobody who posts on NS realises other people read their posts] and none attacking his actual arguments. At a guess, because you can't.

Let Neutron fight his own battles here. After all you and the rest just love badmouthing II players for hours and hours and hours on IRC

Oh, you so, so polite with the personal attacks there. Vacate that high ground, please.

All neutron has to do is ignore balrogga, thats it or he can do what he was told would work. He doesnt need to make this in to a giant flame fest, you dont either.

There's no flaming here, Tanne. Just a lot of your own hypocracy being pointed out. How come all these rules don't apply to any of your recent adventures in declaring yourself superior to every nation in Sol with no RP backup and even superior to nations bigger than you?

And he can also talk Balrogga into playing nicely and gearing down his stuff a little for purposes of balance. Since technology is just to add flavour to RP, rather than the be-all and end-all you seem to think it is, that should be easy.

We dont need a thread that has been used constructively by II players closed because of Der angst and Electrons problems with II play style. Dont like it, fine then leave and dont come back.

It isn't II's play style, it's yours. Stop trying to pass off your issues to an entire forum, are you really that scared they'll fall to bits without these endless appeals to popularity?

Tannelorn came back from inactivity to go on and write a ton of threads, man. So he came from relative inactivity to go and become more active than the majority of the Planet Mars community...I was there, I remember when it happened.

I seen very few story roleplays on that off site forum that weren't either mine or a link to Sunset's Exploration Command Log...

Cooperative roleplays, combined with intensive story roleplay, are the core of this game...I agree wholeheartedly. And while I didn't see much of what the other players had written off of the site, I have my doubts as to whether their threads had more than "The Vehicle laid its engines and was soon to be functional"

It took me and Neutron weeks of cajoling just to get some folks to try and write a character roleplay for god sake...But I'm getting off topic here.

Tannelorn made up for his inactivity by absolutely raping the Planet Mars with threads, both developmental and character based.

We got Der Angst, a player who always makes it clear that he hates II...posting in II.

Ah, again with attacking the man rather than the argument. Always good with that Ad Hominem fallacy, right? Nevermind that it doesn't affect the validity of his arguments one iota.

We got Niiatar complaining because Balroggan ship commanders are using the space equivalent of U-Boat Warfare.

Minus the existence of torpedos, sonar, or depth charges. In other words, conducting the equivalent of having untouchable, invisible submarines that are only vulnerable on the surface and only have to stay there for one second.

Anyway, are you seriously suggesting he just pulls countermeasures from his ass as his objection to him using FTLi, despite this being essentially the same thing?

And we have this excellent concept of "Peer regulated roleplay" being thrown around.

By Tannelorn and nobody else.

Now if I may arbitrate a few things...

No, you may not.

Der Angst, if you hate II so much...why do you post here? You're obviously having no fun at all, it's completely pointless for you to take part in these arguments. In Short, if you don't like II...get lost and quit pestering these poor people.

So don't address a single one of his arguments, then. Again, this just suggests you can't address them, and have to rely on character assassination instead. This is pathetic, Auman.

Niiatar. Lay some mines, fires some depth charges, and counter Balrogga with proven and true tactics...

He is. Balrogga just has an issue with the particular tried and true tactic that is being used.

Numbers don't always win you the war, take the Spanish Armada...

Were the English outnumbered four hundred and forty one to one that time? Was it a single straight-up fight? Did it even resemble the situation we have here?

Try to outfight them before calling for arbitration dude! Shit like this just destroys the flow of the story...

Balrogga's play here destroyed the flow of the story. The story is completely sabotaged by someone flitting around making the principle antagonist look like an idiot. How are you supposed to take the bad guy seriously if the good guy humiliates him one second after the movie starts?

...Peer Regulated Roleplay cannot exist in a Freeform game.

What the hell is this nonsense about peer regulated roleplay? Thread originator controls thread content. The OP is the supreme authority on what's allowed in his thread. That's the rule, and that's the rule that Balrogga and the others seemed to be objecting to.

Nationstates always was and always shall be freeform. It's a cooperative game where roleplays should be conducted with the consent of the other player...

Which Balrogga didn't get. He told Niiatar everything from what his own stuff did to how his own ships were laid out, and even objected when Niiatar had the temerity to tell him that the bridges of his ships weren't right on the outside.

Peer Regulated Roleplay is a failure already. I don't recommend it be pushed any further.

Nobody was ever pushing it to begin with. Except Tannelorn, who wants all RP subject to whatever arbitary rules his clique decides to make up.

Tannelorn came back from inactivity to go on and write a ton of threads, man. So he came from relative inactivity to go and become more active than the majority of the Planet Mars community...I was there, I remember when it happened.

In all of which he claims the best technology in Sol, hundreds of ships, blah blah. By his own argument, he would have to come back weak and puny, write lots of threads about how puny he is, and then he could become big, despite the huge number of threads he just wrote about how puny he is.

Inject three quarts of distilled reality and hold on to your seat.

The realistic way to handle this is to judge on quality of RP rather than volume of RP: you'll never get a good volume of RP for a powerful nation if you're never allowed to start writing as if you are one. This means other people's claims of arbitary superiority need to be reined in; once the proto-big nation has shown its stuff, people can judge if it's worthy of mockery or an award of Recognised Bigness.

Once you have Recognised Bigness, then people can start hurling their shiny things around. Until then, especially in intro RPs, experienced RPers need to wind their wangs back into their pants and focus on helping the other player establish their story. Your own story takes a back seat in someone else's intro RP, anything else is going to frighten off newbies.

As for your arguments and telling me I am being rude? That is a simple response. I will be blunt with this, there is no need to try to beat Der Angst arguments. As I said all thats needed is an ignore.

As for Der angst accusations about me in the aforementioned war. I took losses, I accepted the attacks and I was rather rudely intruded on in a thread I was in by people who did not come to me ooc to talk it through. I also had someone state "the fight would be over quickly." The real reason for the ignore, was an ooc issue on a post being editted to remove the reason for actions I did, as well as taking casualties on civilians when military was attacked to draw in more people. The fact was I did not cater to the metagaming that was shown.

I have screen shots of the original post from that person. As for being banned, I asked for it to be honest. They told me I would be banned if I didnt accept instalose, they ignored everything I did as an attack and I simply said screw it.

Neither I nor many other people appreciate the attacks on sephrioth.

If you think what balrogga did was so bad and trying to make rules, then remember this is why I Ignored you people on the mars forums and asked to be banned [Yes I asked to be banned]. The facts are simple, people not only jumped in to the thread for ridiculous reasons, they then went about ignoring anything I did in defense, ignoring many statements and simply everything I did.

This is why I ignored that war, the reasons others ignored you were equally as profound. Such as being forced to respond to a ridiculous undefeatable attack on threat of banning, despite having stated it was ignored. Dont try to be the champion of justice when you have no leg to stand on Der Angst, not in this case. [Remember Der Angst, you werent on the IRC mars channel when I told sunset to ban me.]

So lets be clear here, you can go around saying what you will. I have the evidence and the screen shots to show the metagaming. If you think balrogga is being bad by trying to have an epic little battle here to hold of the niiatar for a while when Neutron wants his ship to die right now, then fine. The thread that ended in me asking to be banned was far, far worse then that. I had many people try to push in and dictate how the RP i started [The attack on Tor's fleet base starting the war.] and force me to play by their rules, which involved nothing short of me instalosing no matter what I did. When I did ask for what I wanted in return for losing the battle over Mars, you just happened to throw it back at me and say no to it every time. I had "peer regulated" role play thrown in my face a dozen times. Before that we were having a good time. [Note, I had almost my entire fleet over the planet, the combined nations had small portions of their fleet over, the early battle was not an instalose situation and it never got past the early battle.]

And we didnt write a history for what happened to them after the ignore, which is calling casualties and is godmodding. Your side however, did.

As for being inactive, thats fallacy and you know it Der Angst. Since last september I have written novellas on my nation, so any point on trying to make me look bad for not having writing from the year where real life took precedence over a game is moot.

I was simply backing up balrogga on the issue of writing. The fact is that whatever you want to say about it, fine. Yes maybe he didnt know who niiatar was, maybe he did things Electron didnt like. However what has to be understood is that its a rather nifty plot idea, its in character of his nation and not beyond the realm of imagination.

Just remember how many good stories start with one fighting against many. They may not be able to win, but every minute the enemy fires at them and stops from their course of action is a minute bought for <insert person> here's survival. I tried to end this civilly with the, dont like it, leave saying.

II threads this sort of thing happens, accept it and move on or ignore and put the thread in to the NS forum. I dont enjoy seeing good people get flamed for making a slight mistake, as Balrogga may or may not have done. The fact is simple, he saw a big ol war fleet getting ready to attack in an open thread on II and did what he would normally do. So now he has to endure you people calling him down.

Thats the point, Niiatar can accept or ignore, I am tired of this sort of thing. Its why I will ignore any non cooperative war RP [as I did on mars] on grounds that its a waste of time. If Niiatar and Balrogga are at an impasse and cant cooperate. Fine, then it should be ignore..not people berating him over things. I dont care what you say about me, I know you people rather well and I understand this, however you have no right to bad mouth Balrogga or anyone else on this.

I am done here on this argument. I hope it isnt too bothersome to the people here to have another argument carried through, the mars incident, but with Der Angst twisting it out of proportion, I felt it necessary to tell the true story. I didnt get banned for any IC action. I actually asked for it when I was notified on IRC that It would not be a cooperative RP and that a good RP had been ruined by ooc hatred.

One cannot play with one they dislike. So I wont play with certain people anymore, no matter how hard you try to be nice or get things done, in the end it wouldnt matter. If Niiatar dislikes Balrogga enough to want to call him wanky and a million other things, then perhaps as I said much earlier..he should ignore Balrogga. Or perhaps Balrogga should ignore him and end this now as well. These are my final words on the topic.

In all of which he claims the best technology in Sol, hundreds of ships, blah blah. By his own argument, he would have to come back weak and puny, write lots of threads about how puny he is, and then he could become big, despite the huge number of threads he just wrote about how puny he is.

Inject three quarts of distilled reality and hold on to your seat.

The realistic way to handle this is to judge on quality of RP rather than volume of RP: you'll never get a good volume of RP for a powerful nation if you're never allowed to start writing as if you are one. This means other people's claims of arbitary superiority need to be reined in; once the proto-big nation has shown its stuff, people can judge if it's worthy of mockery or an award of Recognised Bigness.

Once you have Recognised Bigness, then people can start hurling their shiny things around. Until then, especially in intro RPs, experienced RPers need to wind their wangs back into their pants and focus on helping the other player establish their story. Your own story takes a back seat in someone else's intro RP, anything else is going to frighten off newbies.



Well, to counter this...What about C'tan, Menelmacar, Tor Yvresse, Insert Canon Nation Here?

All their strength comes from books...written by other people, no less! Tannelorn's claiming of a ten thousand year old history is the same. Tor Yvresse has millions of years of history behind it, that seems to be acknowledged...but why? Because Gav Thorpe wrote some novels for him?

Menelmacar's 12,000 ship fleet...which majickally becomes superior because it's crewed by Elves and served with C'tan technology...well, I think I just explained that point really.

Once again, we have nations that become superior because they stole a back story which gave them an immediate technological advantage and built upon that. Tannelorn is no different, no worse...that's for sure.

The Difference between Tannelorn and C'tan, Tor Yvresse or Menelmacar is that for the most part, names aside, Tannelorn is an original nation.

Why should original nations be castrated because of canon players claiming their superiority? Tannelorn's claims are no worse than the afformentioned players...however, he has more of my respect because he made his from scratch...as opposed to reading the Silmarillion, reading an Eldar or Necron Codex...

In all of which he claims the best technology in Sol, hundreds of ships, blah blah. By his own argument, he would have to come back weak and puny, write lots of threads about how puny he is, and then he could become big, despite the huge number of threads he just wrote about how puny he is.

Inject three quarts of distilled reality and hold on to your seat.

The realistic way to handle this is to judge on quality of RP rather than volume of RP: you'll never get a good volume of RP for a powerful nation if you're never allowed to start writing as if you are one. This means other people's claims of arbitary superiority need to be reined in; once the proto-big nation has shown its stuff, people can judge if it's worthy of mockery or an award of Recognised Bigness.

Once you have Recognised Bigness, then people can start hurling their shiny things around. Until then, especially in intro RPs, experienced RPers need to wind their wangs back into their pants and focus on helping the other player establish their story. Your own story takes a back seat in someone else's intro RP, anything else is going to frighten off newbies.



Well, to counter this...What about C'tan, Menelmacar, Tor Yvresse, Insert Canon Nation Here?

All their strength comes from books...written by other people, no less! Tannelorn's claiming of a ten thousand year old history is the same. Tor Yvresse has millions of years of history behind it, that seems to be acknowledged...but why? Because Gav Thorpe wrote some novels for him?

Menelmacar's 12,000 ship fleet...which majickally becomes superior because it's crewed by Elves and served with C'tan technology...well, I think I just explained that point really.

Once again, we have nations that become superior because they stole a back story which gave them an immediate technological advantage and built upon that. Tannelorn is no different, no worse...that's for sure.

The Difference between Tannelorn and C'tan, Tor Yvresse or Menelmacar is that for the most part, names aside, Tannelorn is an original nation.

Why should original nations be castrated because of canon players claiming their superiority? Tannelorn's claims are no worse than the afformentioned players...however, he has more of my respect because he made his from scratch...as opposed to reading the Silmarillion, reading an Eldar or Necron Codex...

Another thing, I went Fractal willingly...because of poor conduct in a Freeform, cooperative game. I'm not banned from The Planet Mars board...don't mention that war here...because, seriously...the other side was calling casualties and as far as I know, they're starting to write the end of the war for us. Tannelorn asked to be banned on #mars, as well.

As for your arguments and telling me I am being rude? That is a simple response. I will be blunt with this, there is no need to try to beat Der Angst arguments.

No, there is. In a debate, one addresses their opponent's arguments. If one instead spends their whole time attacking their opponent's motives and character, all that is proven is that the person attacking can't address the actual arguments.

I have screen shots of the original post from that person. As for being banned, I asked for it to be honest. They told me I would be banned if I didnt accept instalose, they ignored everything I did as an attack and I simply said screw it.

Because I've had to snip a whole hell of a lot of this out of my reply, here's a little note:

I DON'T CARE.

Slight hint here.

Neither I nor many other people appreciate the attacks on sephrioth.

Do you always bracket your points with claims of poorly-defined support by invisible masses? It doesn't make them any more impressive.

If you think what balrogga did was so bad and trying to make rules, then remember this is why I Ignored you people on the mars forums and asked to be banned [Yes I asked to be banned].

How can I possibly be a member of 'you people' in a forum I don't have an account on, have never posted on and have no interest in?

So lets be clear here, you can go around saying what you will.

Why are you replying to my post as if I'm Der Angst? He hasn't posted since your last post in this thread.

If you think balrogga is being bad by trying to have an epic little battle here to hold of the niiatar for a while when Neutron wants his ship to die right now, then fine.

He's not holding them off, for pity's sake! The planet is dead already, he's just engaging them for no reason other than to make a point that he's more powerful than them and what they did was 'inefficient.'

I was simply backing up balrogga on the issue of writing. The fact is that whatever you want to say about it, fine. Yes maybe he didnt know who niiatar was, maybe he did things Electron didnt like. However what has to be understood is that its a rather nifty plot idea, its in character of his nation and not beyond the realm of imagination.

It's not. It makes Balrogga look just as bad, actually, given his ship's tactics here were solely pretexted on the idea that there was no way a fleet he knew nothing about could hit him. Your last stand idea would make it better, but, and listen carefully, that isn't what's happening here, Tannelorn.

Just remember how many good stories start with one fighting against many.

Not many of them have the one fighting just because he can.

They may not be able to win, but every minute the enemy fires at them and stops from their course of action is a minute bought for <insert person> here's survival.

There's nothing that's being fought for.

I dont enjoy seeing good people get flamed for making a slight mistake, as Balrogga may or may not have done. The fact is simple, he saw a big ol war fleet getting ready to attack in an open thread on II and did what he would normally do.

It had finished the attack. The planet is dead. He did what NOBODY would do.

If Niiatar and Balrogga are at an impasse and cant cooperate. Fine, then it should be ignore..not people berating him over things.

Or he could refine his roleplaying in this thread somewhat, which he's more than capable of doing, and have his ship doing things that fit the premise of the RP.

I didnt get banned for any IC action.

Tanne, nobody's talking about why you got banned.

Well, to counter this...What about C'tan, Menelmacar, Tor Yvresse, Insert Canon Nation Here?

All their strength comes from books...written by other people, no less! Tannelorn's claiming of a ten thousand year old history is the same. Tor Yvresse has millions of years of history behind it, that seems to be acknowledged...but why? Because Gav Thorpe wrote some novels for him?

Menelmacar's 12,000 ship fleet...which majickally becomes superior because it's crewed by Elves and served with C'tan technology...well, I think I just explained that point really.

Once again, we have nations that become superior because they stole a back story which gave them an immediate technological advantage and built upon that. Tannelorn is no different, no worse...that's for sure.

The Difference between Tannelorn and C'tan, Tor Yvresse or Menelmacar is that for the most part, names aside, Tannelorn is an original nation.

Why should original nations be castrated because of canon players claiming their superiority? Tannelorn's claims are no worse than the afformentioned players...however, he has more of my respect because he made his from scratch...as opposed to reading the Silmarillion, reading an Eldar or Necron Codex...

Another thing, I went Fractal willingly...because of poor conduct in a Freeform, cooperative game. I'm not banned from The Planet Mars board...don't mention that war here...because, seriously...the other side was calling casualties and as far as I know, they're starting to write the end of the war for us. Tannelorn asked to be banned on #mars, as well.

So you're saying that nations with a canonical base are inferior to nations who've invented their own technology? Clearly style over substance fallacy. How we begin isn't what matters, what matters is how we use our base to create characters and stories that are appealing. Does inventing ones own history prevent them from forcing some insanely powerful history upon others? No.

It all depends on how they play the game, how they use what they have. Me using 40k as a base makes me no worse or better than Balrogga who uses his own custom tech, to even suggest that tech base enforces a sense of false strength is idiotic, especially given notable breaks from canon within myself, Tor and C'tan.

"Stealing" a backstory that gives a technological advantage is no different from fabricating your own advantage, and you'd do well not to make such rash and idiotic generalisations if you'd like your opinions to be recognised. I certainly won't take such criticisms of how I play.

Well, to counter this...What about C'tan, Menelmacar, Tor Yvresse, Insert Canon Nation Here?

They should also be judged on the merits of their writing, told to reign things in as required to not unbalance individual RPs, and so on. It's hard to find a story anywhere by anyone that doesn't draw inspiration in some part from something.

Once again, we have nations that become superior because they stole a back story which gave them an immediate technological advantage and built upon that. Tannelorn is no different, no worse...that's for sure.

Well, if one claims it as an 'immediate advantage' rather than as fluff to make the nation interesting, then yes, it's bad. Let me let you in on a little secret, Auman: it doesn't matter what you call FT technology or what it does, what matters is how it affects the story being told. If your technology destroys the story the other person is trying to tell, you can have a whole shelf full of writing on it and it would still suck. If it helps the story, you can have a pistol that blows up half the universe.

The Difference between Tannelorn and C'tan, Tor Yvresse or Menelmacar is that for the most part, names aside, Tannelorn is an original nation.

There's no such thing. We form stories from our experiences and base sci-fi in a fairly large part on the sci-fi we like. The more original nations just use ideas from a wider series of sources; that neither makes them better, nor means it takes any less effort to write well and stay faithful to a single source.

Why should original nations be castrated because of canon players claiming their superiority?

Are you even reading my post? Did I ever even mention canon players? Anyway, translating 'canon' as 'fair and justified in RP' [a nasty habit Seaquest had] is where the true insanity lies. A canon one-man Epic fighter from Epic can carry a one teraton bomb and throw out two teratons a minute from its particle cannons. That's rather obviously not going to fly by even the loosest defintion of fairness, unless it's hobbled very carefully with downsides and limits.

Tannelorn's claims are no worse than the afformentioned players...

I'm talking about Tannelorn's arguments here, not his RP. I've never even read it, Auman, save a couple of posts that were randomly linked to. One had a wrestler, if I recall. The other a furby.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by DVK Tannelorn View Post
I didnt get banned for any IC action.

Tanne, nobody's talking about why you got banned."

Actually...Der Angst did...here...

"OTOH, I must admit that you RPing your opponents in the war that eventually got you banned from the Mars boards as freezing solid for fifteen minutes flat, and not recognising half of the action taken by them kinda fits the style of play discussed here, so it's maybe not perfectly out of place for you to state the above."

Actually...Der Angst did...here...

Oh. I'd forgotten to check the post Tannelorn had already replied to once, I guess. I fall back to not really caring.

Chronosia, I respect your writing...but I'll let my opinion be known. I don't really respect a nation of pure canon, especially 40k, cause I've seen it all already. That's basically the extent. I suppose I have to state this better...

I hate canon nations that abuse the backstory to gain power. If you've talked to Menelmacar's player, you'd quickly realize their inflexibility at the possibilty of any sort of defeat...military, economic, diplomatic...etc...

GMC, what ever...I don't really care, just bored. You win. But uh...you know, Pavlowski was awesome...and I've never seen a Furby in a Tannelornian thread.

PAVLOWSKI ARM WRESTLED R-DRIPPING TALONS! That was the greatest thing to happen in the Duma since Navarrone wheeled Blix out of the place after having a Ninja star thrown at him...

I hate canon nations that abuse the backstory to gain power. If you've talked to Menelmacar's player, you'd quickly realize their inflexibility at the possibilty of any sort of defeat...military, economic, diplomatic...etc...

Check pilot light: how many times were Minbari ships and plasma rifles mentioned in LotR? I sorta seem to have lost count after zero.

Ok as for naming them, how about the GE, ESUS, GFFA and the independents who play on either side of that line.Please read again what I wrote - to verify your statement, you need to provide several hundred SciFi nations, with links, or their personal statement in here, that they consider blanket FLT-Interdiction a godmode.

There might be a small problem in there not being even a single hundred of them, but please, try.

As for being nice and not rude? Now correct me if I am wrong but I believe if you asked the other people involved in this thread if you were being rude, they would say yes, you were Der Angst.Erm, in reference to... what? Or are you just throwing out random statement without content nor relevance to the topic of the discussion?

My, yes, yes you are.

Time distance blah blah. Seriously, this is not the point. The point is this, you really have no reason to be in this argument unless you were asked.Threadtitle says otherwise. 'All are welcome to use this'. Do this words tell you anything? Anyting at all?

You want to continue to do this, thats fine but just remember, I dont look like a jerk here Der Angst, however every time you post in this thread, you do and to a very, very wide audience.I'm not out to get sympathy points. And this isn't a kindergarten - being nice and polite and AVOIDING THE ISSUE AT HAND is detrimal to the debate's purpose.

Just remember the vast majority of FT players are in II. Thats a fact you are just going to have to deal with.... And? Once more, you're straying from the point of the debate in a rather silly atempt at... Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but maybe you could tell me? I'm sorry, but your dribble has no tangible content, and absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand - this isn't about me, this is about Niiatar and Balrogga.

The fact is Balrogga was trying to do something in character of his nation, stopping a large warfleet from ransacking some poor planet.A tad late - the planet was already slagged. Also note that the Balroggan ship didn't do anything to save the planet - it simply contacted and mocked the killers.

Queston. Did you read the thread at all?

His crews are fighting desperately with every trick at their disposal.Actually, they're fighting by praying desperately to the god of ooc, trying to tell the other side what it can do.

Seriously Der Angst, my biggest gripe with you at this point is the insult directed to sephrioth. I am sorry but you use his name too often to describe II in general and you have stated that its not an excuse to be dyslexic.Detrimal to the topic at hand, lacking evidence (Links, quotes, whatever), and - assuming that you're trying to win sympathy points by saying 'OMG YUO HAET II', evidently wrong, given the frequency with which I post in this subforum, about as ICly as is humanly possible.

But hey - just as above, please, feel free to provide evidence that you're correct, and that I'm a filthy liar.

I doubt you have this evidence, but hey. Everybody deserves a chance.

Well then I am going to say to you now,there is not an excuse for your own behaviour. None whatsoever, consider also the fact that alot of people are going to be reading what you write here.I note your continuing failure to actually provide arguments, apart from whining about me considering this a debate, not happy-happy-in-kindergarten-the-unicorns-fire-rainbows-from-their-asses-land, and your general Balrogga-fanboyism.

I'm very sorry, but this doesn't impress me.

After all you and the rest just love badmouthing II players for hours and hours and hours on IRC, why do you even bother playing with them if your sooo much better Der AngstOnce more, you fail to provide evidence. WHERE in this thread have I critizised the entirety of II? I'm defending one - Niiatar -, for christ's sake.

Again - I don't make blanket statements. Am I better than you? Of course I am. It's hard not to be. Am I better than the entirety of II? Of course not.

You on the other hand - still without providing any actual arguments - are just whining about things that never happened, crying because people use terms one might not necessarily hear in the Sesame Street and... Oh, that's it.

Seriously. That's just sad.

We got Der Angst, a player who always makes it clear that he hates III get tired of asking for this, but... Evidence? A quote? A post? Anything?

Stop lying through your teeth and making up shit to suit yourself and whatever agenda you might have.

We got Niiatar complaining because Balroggan ship commanders are using the space equivalent of U-Boat Warfare.This might be news to you, but...

Space isn't the ocean.

No, really. It isn't.

Der Angst, if you hate II so much...why do you post here? You're obviously having no fun at all, it's completely pointless for you to take part in these arguments. In Short, if you don't like II...get lost and quit pestering these poor people.I refer you to above. You're a dirty liar if you claim that I 'Hate II' (I wont hold it against you, mind - it isn't the first time you've lied, and I dn't exactly expect anything better from you). Baseless statements are, sadly, not valid arguments.

Especially when they concern something that isn't even the topic.

For that matter, why are you and your brother turning this into a debate about 'II'? It isn't. Get back on topic, or may we consider this diversion as a concession?

If so, concession accepted.

If you cannot provide any meaningful input to the actual purpose of the thread - and I note that Balrogga and Godular did provide such input, even though I disagree with them - you two appear to be the only ones not getting the purpose of the thread -, maybe you should just.... Stop spamming?

Last I checked, you were banned from the NS Draftroom for exactly this kind of pointless, wordy spam. You really should think about it.

As for your arguments and telling me I am being rude? That is a simple response. I will be blunt with this, there is no need to try to beat Der Angst arguments.Translation: 'I Can't'?

Alright. Concession accepted.

As for being inactive, thats fallacy and you know it Der Angst. Since last september I have written novellas on my nationlol.

But, on a more serious note, look at GMC's argument above - Why didn't you abide by your own rules, starting out as a piddly little shithole, like you require everyone else to?

Oh, your rules don't apply to yourself? How convenient.

I was simply backing up balrogga on the issue of writing.I already mentioned it above - Niiatar wrote more and rather more interesting (Yes, the latter is subjective) in the thread.

You're ignoring your own requirements for being recognised as 'Powerful'.

And this doesn't reflect well on you, nor on your arguments.

Well, seeing as you don't have many of the latter, this might not be too bad.

Well, to counter this...What about C'tan, Menelmacar, Tor Yvresse, Insert Canon Nation Here?You mean the C'tan and Tor Yvresse who tend to downscale their capabilities as appropriate, so as not to wank all over $other? Ever seen necron ships getting damaged by kiloton scale explosions? C'tan did RP that.

And this is exactly what Balrogga didn't do.

Why should original nations be castrated because of canon players claiming their superiority?Errr.. You're again missing the original topic, bringing your own agenda in, but... They aren't? Tannelorn is the one who told everyone that he was superior by a factor of... Twenty or so ('I can beat all of sol on my own!)

Not the other way around.

Get your facts straight, little boy.

I've never seen a Furby in a Tannelornian thread.Oh, it was there. After he stalked out of some meeting or another in a huff. I believe Roania ate it.

I have to admit, from what I've seen of C'tan, he does downplay his weaponry. I 've seen him take casualties trying to evacuate refugees from a besieged planet, from a nation much smaller than him, and though he has the deus ex machina of herodom going in the thread to rescue Alicia Li'wye, he's most certainly making concessions.

Theres no reason to suggest that he uses his backstory to bulk himself up, no more than I do. I put effort into a backstory that linked my former Emperor to the (In my self-canonical estimation) long-dead Imperium of Man. I created a dark Mirror of the Old Imperium, which eventually succumbed to Chaos forming my current nation which is structured as to a Chaos ruled Imperium, as though Horus had won the climactic battle. Over time I've slowly built up my capabilities and strengths, played in weaknesses and engaged in wars and conflicts where I've not always been the victor or successful. Thats not to say I'm any more over-powered or have a greater advantage than someone whos sat and dreamed up their own pet universe.

If anything I'm less so, because I have rules and guidelines built into the system that I emulate, stats and descriptions to help me. Its not that we're stealing to win an advantage, its to act as a base for us to better tell our stories, expand our narratives. No one can "win" NS, so why rush things? Why even need a canon advantage? Its not as though you whine when Tann jumps in, claiming to be mightier than Sol with his canon tech and soldiers trained from birth. And why should you? He's not opposing your selfish views.

If you can't respect a large number of the players within this game, then why even bother playing it? If you can't bring yourself to embrace other styles and players, then why even bother breaking rank with your own kind? Its people like you who spawn the taint of elitism amongst what should be good, clean, open and all-inclusive fun.

If I may interject just a word or 678...

I believe Tannelorn is somewhat misinterpreting the term "peer regulated role play" that I stated in argument in private and public on IRC with him during the build up to his eventual ban from mars. I stated that NS role play operated by peer regulation created by the ignore and for that matter non interaction between persons.

We do not, cant and shouldn't define others nations but we do define who we role play with and who and what we ignore, thus we do implement de facto peer regulation, the peers being by definition every single player. The creation of cliques of peers who share your world or rather NS view is inevitable however there regulation by the same mechanism when acting with everyone else is also just as inevitable.

If someone claims they have a universal imploder everyone would probably ignore them. Therefore no one claims a universal imploder or if they do no one role plays with them. This does not stop anyone in theory claiming it or basing a thread upon it, the destruction of it, the building of it or the marrying of it to a 3 foot tall dwarf (with a love of mauve and small french pastries) from Swindon to it. It also doesn't stop people from saying "hey this is silly and me and my mates think its silly" such as could be said about say a thermonuclear pulse propelled airborne gyrocopter battleship/strip mall in MT. When a great number of people do indeed believe that it is silly to the points of ignores then thats peer regulation in operation. It can and does happen anywhere in the NS role playing. It even happened to Tannelorn when he did something that could be and was broadly defined as "silly" by the community and ops of the planet mars clique.

Call me mister I have a vested intrest (because well I do being one of his adversaries during our little affair) if you must but so does he, in defining those who cast him out and there opinions, reputation and overall clique as "the bad guys" or "the silly ones" as without it his reputation takes a hit and with reputation again we have a method of peer regulation. Tannelorns has taken a hit as he claimed something patently viewed by a large number of people as wrong.

Tannelorn cannot afford haveing people ignoring what they consider common sense or worse ignoring there own roleplay and what defines it so they can all fall down and worship what he and the clique he claims to belong to define.

No one has to do that and anyone can claim just as he did to be capable of something no one else thinks they are. The thing of it is ..no one else has to accept it or interact with it and there you get the mechanism of peer regulation.

I just dislike what I state being misrepresented by someone who I have a vested interest in seeing loose face. I wont lie about it, I wont hide it behind pleasant words either. Its part of the game as it exists and though I don't practice the more repulsive parts of character assassination that ARE actively practiced within this game. I will point things out that are to my disadvantage more often than I will point them out to my disadvantage. Its not what is thought generaly as part of the game but it does happen and is actively part of the mechanism. We may all dislike it and spin that "hey it doesn't" but it does and it is actively part of the peer regulated method by which this game and human interaction with other humans seems to operate by.

And so those are my words muddled thoughts and beliefs about this game with direct relevance to this argument and the misrepresentation of that statement by Tannelorn.

After all heaven forbid that I or the clique I seem to belong to loose respect.

This is my last post on the issue. ZMI I was not referring to your version of Peer regulated Roleplay which is much more having arbitration. The version of Peer regulated roleplay I am speaking of is the one which Electron himself stated. Basically anything you do has to be accepted. Now as per the way it was described to me, they dont like you, you lose. ZMI I wasnt going to mention you in this as you were only an adversary in this little affair because of the fact that the RP got ruined by people who werent reading a thing that was going on.

To ZMI's credit he is one of the good ones in the fact that he is correct, he does not participate in character assassination and I am glad to see you bring up this point. ZMI is correct in his term of peer regulated roleplay, sadly not everyone does indeed utilise this form of Peer regulated roleplay. In fact most people who do use this method, use it as more of a popularity based system. Its sad because then this method of being able to actually get through problems with competitive RP[non cooperative free form floating RP's ie ones that we dont know how they will end from the start].

This in turn is why Writing based for competitive becomes better. In this way its a combination of back story and writing done with each nation determining what can be done. In my opinion, because of the amount of character assassination and ooc politicking that can take place, that is the best way to do it. The fact is that these responses started with Niiatar having problems with Balrogga using 1 ship against him. Balrogga is a good guy and though he didnt know Niiatar was Electron, it doesnt really matter as this is totally in character with his nation. The trick used to be able to fight 411 ships can be defeated through cleverness, once you defeat that trick it never really works again. After all why waste the power if the enemy can predict where you will be :p.

Plot wise its a cool idea, but people did get rude and flamy. People we know from the other side as it were, and my eventual ban once again, was by choice. I simply grew tired of the OOC politics and bullshit.

In closing, ZMI is right, however he is also wrong as the event in question that wouldnt work was a rather good plot twist and I have had many people agree that it should have evened things out. Through ooc conversations with others [Not ZMI, he was one of the reasonable people.] during that time I discovered it was not going to work, the RP itself. Backstory and IC didnt matter, only that it ended with instalose. Once again, this was not ZMI.

Doc, trust me its not your definition of peer regulated roleplay thats at fault. Its just too bad that only you and maybe two others use the proper form of peer regulated roleplay. Der Angst included in the list of people who use it properly, mind you. I wont mention names of those others involved, as I havent. The facts are simple though, Balrogga and Electron have two choices. Ignore and move on, or try to cooperatively fix this RP.

If Electron cannot see the niftyness of the warfleet being stopped for a few minutes by an unknown ship, then forcing it to withdraw, thats fine. Electron doesnt have to RP with balrogga. Argument is over.

The trick used to be able to fight 411 ships can be defeated through cleverness, once you defeat that trick it never really works again. After all why waste the power if the enemy can predict where you will be :p.

As I've said several times, why should that trick actually work? Was it ever implied in Balrogga's posts that it would? And why, at the earliest stage of the RP, would it be beneficial to accept the principle antagonist being made to look ridiculous? You can't take an enemy seriously if they can be dealt with so easily.

If during the first five minutes of Star Wars someone had successfully kicked Vader in the nuts, it would have been hilarious, but it would also have ruined his character as Ominous Bad Guy.

The facts are simple though, Balrogga and Electron have two choices. Ignore and move on, or try to cooperatively fix this RP.

Yes, but you're not arguing for that, you're arguing Niiatar suck it down and do exactly what Balrogga wants. That's surrender, not cooperation.

If Electron cannot see the niftyness of the warfleet being stopped for a few minutes by an unknown ship, then forcing it to withdraw, thats fine. Electron doesnt have to RP with balrogga. Argument is over.

It's not nifty, Tannelorn. It makes the principle antagonist of this RP look weak and ridiculous. If Balrogga is willing to either re-write his entrance to be less tactically unsound or take the loss of his ship after the FTLi disables it's ability to jump into frogspace, that would be best. This is a story, and there must be time given to establish the antagonist as a powerful force to be reckoned with. You can't beat them at the start and expect them to be seen as such, it's nonsense.

Just popping in, to say one thing.

Please read again what I wrote - to verify your statement, you need to provide several hundred SciFi nations, with links, or their personal statement in here, that they consider blanket FLT-Interdiction a godmode.

I'd just like to speak for myself, here. I'm a member of the ESUS, and one of the more 'bigshipomg' guys in the ESUS, Kanuckistan, has blanket FTLi. There are, of course, quite a lot of reasons he barely ever brings it out to play, but I have never seen an ESUS member call that a godmod, and I've been a member for a few years now.

Blanket-FTLi is like a blanket projectile-stopping shield. "AH! THE SHIELD STOPS MY GUNS!", is not an excuse to cry godmod. An interdiction field that could not be brought down in any way, outmaneuvered, given sufficient information/power/RP, which made planets unassailable would be a godmod.

Blanket FTLi, on the other hand, would not be.

Until then, especially in intro RPs, experienced RPers need to wind their wangs back into their pants

Although I've essentially said everything I wanted to say here, I have one more thing to say. Sigged. Freakin' sigged.

Good point... a lot of "invincable" FT ships are created nowadays, and they destroy good RPs.

I have to agree with you. I just stick to the Star Trek universe. It makes for fun Trekkie RPs

RPing a good strategy wins.

I faced some really techwankish shiips and was able to defeat them by using a tactic that is nearly unbeatable. It is actually beatable, but the RPer I faced couldn't figure it out so he retreated.

Blanket-FTLi is like a blanket projectile-stopping shield. "AH! THE SHIELD STOPS MY GUNS!", is not an excuse to cry godmod. An interdiction field that could not be brought down in any way, outmaneuvered, given sufficient information/power/RP, which made planets unassailable would be a godmod.

Unless said FTLi stops light as well, I can't say it would do much more to my own vessels then stop me from jumping out of combat as my fastest (and perhaps most powerful) weapon is a beam of sorts, everything else is c-frac and missiles which are fast, but aren't even close to light speed. So usually I'd expect blanket-FTLi is just a plot device for stopping people from running away or using raid tactics on you... not every nation has FTL weapons and they should be prepared to deal with the technology from time to time as everyone seems to have their own version these days, but thats down to preference.

In anycase, I have to agree with GMC's line of thinking on this one, the only way something like this even sounds ok in my mind if is the original author is perfectly fine with having his ass handed to him by a vastly superiour nation... otherwise it's just downright inconciderate and rude. That said, I'd have to check with the guy to be sure, if he's cool with it then thats that but I'd expect more co-operatation from you [Bal] given how much he's already seemingly accepting.

*shrugs*

While I'm here I may as well save myself a rant later and link my own suggestions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=355350) for roleplaying in space... some people agree, others less so but given how bad some of this thread is, I think it fits.

I have to agree with you. I just stick to the Star Trek universe. It makes for fun Trekkie RPs

Reset the energy degradation of a photon torpedo warhead to reveal a tachyon burst in the gravometric vortex?

RPing a good strategy wins.

I faced some really techwankish shiips and was able to defeat them by using a tactic that is nearly unbeatable. It is actually beatable, but the RPer I faced couldn't figure it out so he retreated.

A tactic that is 'nearly unbeatable' is wankish in itself. Tactics are adopted for specific situations - they're not meant to be the be-all, end-all of things. A 'nearly unbeatable' tactic would have to utilise some kind of wank to be like that.

Unless said FTLi stops light as well, I can't say it would do much more to my own vessels then stop me from jumping out of combat as my fastest (and perhaps most powerful) weapon is a beam of sorts

I was trying to make an analogy between shields and FTLi, and weapons and FTL. Essentially, blanket FTLi, that stops all forms of FTL, is no more a wank than a blanket shield, that stops all forms of projectile (within reason). So long as both can be disabled, or overpowered, they're not wank.

I have a question here.

I haven't really godmodded yet here in FT. Would any of you consider the following situation godmodding?

I have an ongoing RP where I'm using Kirk's Enterprise NCC-1701 during a 5 year mission. I was attacked by another player with superior technology.

I RP'ed my Kirk on comms with him explaining my ship was equipped with a new device known as corbomite. I explained that if the hull were damaged by certain weapons, the device would detonate and destroy everything within 500,000 km in addition to creating a dead zone for 10 years within 100,000 km. The other RPer backed down.

Anyone who has watched The Original Series of Star Trek probably got a chuckle out of that story since Kirk did that on not 1, but 2 occasions.

So then it's not an unbeatable tactic. It's merely babble stating that, if you die, everyone else will go with you. Enemy blows you up. You die.

Perhaps you'd do better to present such ideas as 'mildly clever bluffs', as opposed to 'nearly unbeatable tactics'?

It has always been easier to destroy, than to create.

Yeah, yeah, that's from the ST:II movie, and not the original series, but I think it's safe to apply here. But considering the fact that the US Army once deployed a nuclear weapon in a standard artillery shell, the idea that a device that could cause such destructive power isn't as much godmodding, as it is potentially frightening, especially if one day technology catches up to theory, and worse sci-fi.

I presume many heard about the test of a copper wite mesh in a cloaking experiment. Gods forbid what else is out there we don't know of yet, but one thing is certain. Reality is catching up in it's own way.

As for godmodding in that case, I don't really see it as such, especially with the Sona Subspace weapons that 'were' seen in one of the ST:TNG movies of note, Ressurection by name. Given the fact if energy and physics are applied properly, the old adage of moving a world with a simple (if long enough) plank of wood, makes for the fact one could concieveably destroy whole suns and worse in a future we can't imagine.

When I see, including myself, see the plyings of FT here, all the cool toys, I always keep in mind, no matter what the scale, the fact if it's comparable to real technology, then what the heck can't be done?

In my mind therefore, godmodding isn't as much about seeing someone with cool toys, when others doing willing FT rps are having their own anyway, but rather seeing said toys used by one ego against another ego.

Hence why I avoid inter-alliance wars like a plauge. =^^=

Let's be blunt, and I already put this forth elsewhere, and I dang well know my rps are wanked to many, despite in the face of more conservative rpers. We all godmod, as well as unofficially plagarize all sci-fi conventions with all the rps we do here. Everything doesn't exist, and nothing we do here is real yet.

Hell, MT and even PT is godmod wank that defies all known history and such. Nothing here is real, nothing we do is of 'real' consequence.

So... in my case knowing that, and avoiding fighting other nations without TGing the hell out of a thread prior, I do what I do, the same as everyone else does here.

Were here for the fricken fun of it.

If it all isn't fun because something written takes the fun away from someone else, no matter how justified it is in our own egodriven minds, then it causes things like what I did recently. It causes us to leave. Personally I was burned out, but seeing so much nation fighting, was kinda a bore to be honest.

Everyone here has judgements of their own against my nation. I accept that, since I fully knew my part in the Rp crime of unrealisim we all partake in. As it is, I still do it, now with renewed vigor after the fact, because I found it was fun to do again.

I won't sit here, typing this and pretend I know each nation by heart, and that I expect the same in return. I think it's why we continuously have these techinical driven symposium topics from time to time. We want to impress others with our imagination, even if it's mostly borrowed. Hell, all my A-SSDs are are uber scaled versions of a Lucas copyright, so if I can admit that, can we all also and also admit we HATE losing in the same breath?

Kirk hates losing. Picard hates losing, Han Solo hates losing. Tell me, does anyone actually like the concept, especially when we are faced with it?

In the end, my version of seeing godmiodding isnt about being beat in a fake combat thread, as it is about fair play and lack thereof, mainly because we hate losing, and looking bad in front of other people, 90% plus of which we will never see past our computer monitor.

Probably walk by each other everyday in places and never know we rp together. Heh... =^^=

For me, I like uberscale multi-galactic empires. I think in such huge terms. Others think of only scale of a few planets and appropriate sized fleets. Scope and skill in rping it all makes or breaks who says it's standard rping around these parts.

So, to me, saying Kirk used twice a corbomite weapon as a ploy, isn't a godmod. Hell, the mutually assured destruction concept was used as diplomacy for over half a century here on our own mudball, so what the hell isn't considered fairplay in the end.

If it aint fun, what's the damn point? =oo=

...tis finito... =>>=

In my mind therefore, godmodding isn't as much about seeing someone with cool toys, when others doing willing FT rps are having their own anyway, but rather seeing said toys used by one ego against another ego.

When said toys cannot be defeated, it's godmodding. It doesn't matter how cool a toy is. I roleplay an insane, half-godlike AI that inhabits an entire dimension. It's probably interesting to note that it has immense trouble grasping the concept of kinetic weaponry, and descends ever-more into insanity. It's quite easily defeatable. However, should I take my AI, and decide that, since it's really, really smart, it can avoid every single attack thrown at it, it's godmodding.

I can stroke my ego by RPing my toys to be as cool as I like. At the point when they start becoming invincible toys, it's godmodding.

Hence why I avoid inter-alliance wars like a plauge. =^^=

Yes, I can see how massive inter-world nuclear devastation could have problems for plagues.

We all godmod

Would you care to amend that 'we' to mean 'you'? Unless you're dealing with some sort of ultra-definition of godmod, which includes the words 'controlling one's own forces', or 'roleplaying', that's wrong.

as well as unofficially plagarize all sci-fi conventions with all the rps we do here. Everything doesn't exist, and nothing we do here is real yet.
Of course. There aren't that many original plots and ideas left to us. Implementation is where originality stems from.

Hell, MT and even PT is godmod wank that defies all known history and such. Nothing here is real, nothing we do is of 'real' consequence.

So you're saying that Nationstates isn't real?! Oh, the humanity! I wonder what the word 'godmod', and the word 'wank', means in your mind. Does it correlate with 'writing stories'?

Were here for the fricken fun of it.

Yes, we're here to enjoy it. I enjoy reading well-written stories.

If it all isn't fun because something written takes the fun away from someone else, no matter how justified it is in our own egodriven minds, then it causes things like what I did recently. It causes us to leave. Personally I was burned out, but seeing so much nation fighting, was kinda a bore to be honest.

If you don't like it, leave, or try and change it. It's not a hard thing to do. I leave forums, I join forums. Nation-fighting can be fun. Wankery and godmoddery spoils it. Character development within such a fight makes it fun.

I won't sit here, typing this and pretend I know each nation by heart, and that I expect the same in return. I think it's why we continuously have these techinical driven symposium topics from time to time. We want to impress others with our imagination, even if it's mostly borrowed.


Hell, all my A-SSDs are are uber scaled versions of a Lucas copyright, so if I can admit that, can we all also and also admit we HATE losing in the same breath?

Why? The only method of losing in an RP is if the story loses. Admitting that you have a ship that steals from Star Wars is no catalyst for me admitting that we hate losing in nation RPs. The only way to lose in a story is if the story loses out - in coherence, plot, and character development.

Kirk hates losing. Picard hates losing, Han Solo hates losing. Tell me, does anyone actually like the concept, especially when we are faced with it?

If said losing involves a significant part of my life, yes, I dislike it.

In the end, my version of seeing godmiodding isnt about being beat in a fake combat thread

Maybe it's time that your definition of godmodding caught up with the one that's official on the forums. Y'know. You may have your own definition of thievery, but it means jack to the police, if you want a four-year old arrested for picking a daisy out of your garden.

For me, I like uberscale multi-galactic empires. I think in such huge terms. Others think of only scale of a few planets and appropriate sized fleets. Scope and skill in rping it all makes or breaks who says it's standard rping around these parts.

I think in terms of superclusters of galaxies. I can conceptualise fleets of half a million ships. It doesn't mean I RP as such. Congratulations on being able to think big. But it's not the size of your RPing that makes it good. It's the focus.

So, to me, saying Kirk used twice a corbomite weapon as a ploy, isn't a godmod

This was what you were leading up to? Couldn't you have just said 'It's a ploy. It wasn't a godmod, it was an in-character statement.'. Massive, rambling posts, leading up to a single point that is self-evident aren't all that interesting.

If it aint fun, what's the damn point? =oo=

Enjoyment. Not all enjoyment stems from fun. The enjoyability of a stunning sunset isn't 'fun', but I feel joy in it nonetheless.

Sorry then if I ofended. But personally when I saw the Austrian Alps up close for the first time. to me it was both enjoyable and fun, i see most things like that. But otherwise my appologies if I offended in any way. I simply wanted to offer my opinions.

I have a question here.

I haven't really godmodded yet here in FT. Would any of you consider the following situation godmodding?

Sounds like your own thread, so firstly the story line is yours in the first place to dictate as you see fit though pulling stuff out of no-where could still be frowned upon depending on how it's done, not that that was done in this case... it's just a clever bluff or whatever. In this case it seems more like a interesting plot twist then a 'I win' button (afterall, there is nothing stopping them from disabling you and/or boarding you) and hell... it could be argued that all Star Trek ships are canonnically very dangerous to utterly destroy as their cores are powered with anti-matter, but the show and I imagine most Star Trek players rightfully play down the power of anti-matter to a more managable level for storylines.

I was trying to make an analogy between shields and FTLi, and weapons and FTL. Essentially, blanket FTLi, that stops all forms of FTL, is no more a wank than a blanket shield, that stops all forms of projectile (within reason). So long as both can be disabled, or overpowered, they're not wank.

I know, I was myself just using that as a chance to explain my views on FTLi technology... as for a FTLi that stops weapons; well if it stops all damage (by stopping all possible weapons for example) and then requires the other player to research massed of threads to get around it because the solution is vague then frankly, it's still a Godmode as it's invulnerability and would realistically be perfect ignore material.

Also, it's worth noting that 'wank' isn't unacceptable in itself, every nation has unrealistic elements for whatever reason, usually just to simplify matters. The important thing is to be reasonable with it... there is a difference between having a interesting, if unrealistic society, and having a unrealistic society geared entirely torwards combat expressely for the perposes of claiming superiourity over other nations. In the first case it's more about flavour, in the second case it's just to try and be the best... something which is a bit boring these days as everyone is doing it.

It's not to say that people can't have powerful, awesome concepts... we all like to have something cool to be proud of, but in a game which is effectively a co-operative story you have to concider everyone elses part and not overshadow them too much. Iuthia is clearly a military dictatorship that beleives in teaching it's people discapline through a complusory military service... the military has a huge portion of the national budget and it's influence is seen throughout Iuthia. However, unlike many nations this doesn't really make our military any stronger as the normal citizens who do their time aren't the military proper. Using such poorly trained 'troops' would only be sending lambs to the slaughter. Instead the complusory service is more like a social engineering tool. It can also be said that the huge military budget is also something of a lie as the military has to cover other duties, making them the entire emgerancy services. So what it really amounts to is flavour... I like the idea of a militant society, my people are somewhat xenophobic towards outsiders, they have less imagination for the arts and they tend to be simple (not the same as stupid) in their view of the world. They aren't all fighters and most would be lucky if they even remebered most of the stuff they learned when they were teens at base camp.

*ahem* yeah, veered off a bit there. In anycase, it's not so much a problem with wank, as how it's used. It's important to try and be conciderate in Nationstates... sure, we may want to cause our enemies trouble, but if you make something unworkable for them or annoying to the point it's no fun then frankly you are asking for all that effort you put in to be wasted as they won't want to play anymore.

As for relative power levels and how to judge who is better? Really that comes down to the roleplay in question and what the thread seems to be leaning towards... sure, conceptually some nations are vastly superiour to others, Iuthia's future technology is somewhat low tech to others as an example. That doesn't mean it's acceptable to just assume you'll win or that your nation deserves to 'win' more. Certainly not acceptable in my opinion to barge into their threads and enforce the view, either.

Alot of nations from both sides of Nationstates really need to be a bit more conciderate about how they fuck with people, it's nice to ask before changing the direction of someones thread or pushing a war on them they don't neccissarily want or have time for (how many times have I seen a new nation with a controversial concept get piled on by other players and have this problem)... so just ask for a change.

Nation-fighting can be fun. Wankery and godmoddery spoils it.

Maybe I'm just using different definitions here, but wank itself tends to be ok. I define wank as anything that's potentially abusive [steps outside reality, such as psychics and magic, or hugely overpowered things] and Godmoding as powergaming that's detrimental to RP, such as calling losses that aren't inevitable, telling your opponent how his own stuff works, and such.

Wank if badly played can be negative, but in small quantities can actually add to RP: wanked things are the big bad, the principle threat, the enemy's mighty flagship that seems invincible, the super spy who never seems to slip up. You just have to be sure to add adequate downsides to balance the wankiness.

I think Gaian Ascendancy just has his wires crossed: wank can be good or bad depending on the wanker, but Godmoding is always bad by its very definition.

Sorry then if I ofended. But personally when I saw the Austrian Alps up close for the first time. to me it was both enjoyable and fun, i see most things like that. But otherwise my appologies if I offended in any way. I simply wanted to offer my opinions.

There's a difference between offending and rambling. What you said could've been condensed significantly. It just annoys me somewhat when I read the same thing a few times in the same post. I'm also fairly blunt. Feel free to be the same with me. I'm fairly hard to offend. I dealt with SQ for a significant amount of time - including a fairly large portion of such on the GFFA forums. That sort of thing tends to desensitize you to being offended.



Maybe I'm just using different definitions here, but wank itself tends to be ok. I define wank as anything that's potentially abusive [steps outside reality, such as psychics and magic, or hugely overpowered things]

I tend to define it as something that is abusive. Because, when you get right down to, faster-than-light travel, by it's very nature, is overpowered. Once I can lob honkin's big rocks at your homeworld at high fractions of c, that's wankery.

I think Gaian Ascendancy just has his wires crossed: wank can be good or bad depending on the wanker, but Godmoding is always bad by its very definition.

If wank is merely potentially abusive, then it could go either way, yes. But numberwank, and techwank, for instance, tend to be more about asserting your superiority over others - that your tech makes you better, not that you have cool tech.

If wank is merely potentially abusive, then it could go either way, yes. But numberwank, and techwank, for instance, tend to be more about asserting your superiority over others - that your tech makes you better, not that you have cool tech.

Ya, but say I do both those things: I start a new nation, say it's twice as big as yours with X thousand more ships, and a giant battle station that blows up stars. I'm guilty of both. Now, let's say you go along with this for some reason.

We end up with a story arc where you lose a lot of stuff, but grit your teeth, dig in and stop the mighty wank-empire. It's worthy of song and fable regardless of the wankery inherent in my nation from the start. Because this was used to create the plotline, rather than in Niiatar's thread where it undermines an existing plotline, it's good for the RP.

After all, Germany had techwank against Soviet Russia with lolz teh tigerz tnak wit das long barrel 88 an mega armer, but they still lost, and there's still dozens of stories that came from that.

RPing =/= reality. World War Two wasn't a game. Sure, there were lots of stories that came from that. But if the Soviets could've changed their force dispositions, and amounts, on mere whim, they would've done so.

If you have that massive force, and you refuse to lose with this massive empire, that's wank. If both sides agree that your force is reasonable, then, obviously, it's not wank.

However, you have no way of knowing pre-emptively, unless you plan out the entire RP beforehand, what will further, and what will hurt the plot, nor how people will play this technology. It's from that stance that I'm against unmediated wank - there's no guarantee it'll help the storyline, and every chance that it'll harm it.

RPing =/= reality. World War Two wasn't a game. Sure, there were lots of stories that came from that. But if the Soviets could've changed their force dispositions, and amounts, on mere whim, they would've done so.

Well yes, but reality is a good example to fall back on as to how a force with immense technological superiority can exist in the same war as one without, and even lose to it [British vs. Zulus, Russia vs. Germany in WW2, etc]. It's a good thing to pull in MT on people who try to draw the PMT line where their stuff ends and anything better begins, though that isn't too relevant here.

If you have that massive force, and you refuse to lose with this massive empire, that's wank. If both sides agree that your force is reasonable, then, obviously, it's not wank.

I was more thinking along the lines of giving people who claim higher populations or better tech a chance rather than killing them. Sure, the stickies may say increasing pop is the ultimate crime, but the stickies are getting awfully old now. Asking a new guy to get in his time machine and find the site anything up to four years ago if he wants to be bigger than you seems a limit we'd do well to be much less strict with these days.

Same with technology: if newbie A wants to be a technological ultrapower, give him a chance to play it fair and ICly treat new powers with adequate respect if you don't know anything about their capabilities rather than jumping in like you own the universe.

Obviously, refusing to lose is bad, but it's bad whether you do it with a stick, a rifle or a particle cannon, the tech isn't the problem there.

Well yes, but reality is a good example to fall back on as to how a force with immense technological superiority can exist in the same war as one without, and even lose to it [British vs. Zulus, Russia vs. Germany in WW2, etc]. It's a good thing to pull in MT on people who try to draw the PMT line where their stuff ends and anything better begins, though that isn't too relevant here.

Yes, but winning against immense technological superiority is the exception to the rule. (And my MT stuff is routinely inferior, and outnumbered, to boot. Once I've finished with my exams and the like, I'll be getting an invasion of my MT incarnation into high gear)


I was more thinking along the lines of giving people who claim higher populations or better tech a chance rather than killing them.

My attitude depends entirely on how they RP. Or, to be more accurate, how they write in their intro posts. I have nothing against technological superiority - my armies are like disposable non-safety razors. Cheap, reasonably dangerous, and easy as all hell to break. I've always been an advocate of the position that you have the right to equality in these things - you have the right to dictate that your technology is equal or lesser to theirs. If they want to be nice about it, you can negotiate superiority.

Sure, the stickies may say increasing pop is the ultimate crime, but the stickies are getting awfully old now. Asking a new guy to get in his time machine and find the site anything up to four years ago if he wants to be bigger than you seems a limit we'd do well to be much less strict with these days.

One of the problems, I find, with FT, is that population is really the only constant. Hey, you might be a nation made entirely out of robots. You might have a high tax because all information goes into the central processing bank so that it can make the best decision for your robotty minions. Where in MT, a dictator might be able to smash a pacifistic democracy with a greater proportion of their population, in FT, there are far less rules governing just how a society can run. No technological roof, to say the least.


Then again, you might have no tax, and explain this by saying you're a hivemind of insects, and thus have no economy, because all serve the hive. Maybe you're a socialist paradise in the future, and you manage to exist without issue because you send clones down into the bread mines to mine bread for your populace. The point is, that the only thing limiting someone's power is that little number in your NS page. And FT... has its fair share of n00bs. Letting them do whatever they want would be akin to giving a toddler a tommygun.

Same with technology: if newbie A wants to be a technological ultrapower, give him a chance to play it fair and ICly treat new powers with adequate respect if you don't know anything about their capabilities rather than jumping in like you own the universe.

I take the opposite stance. Well, not really. More of a mirror stance. Or.. well, just accept that I'm terrible with metaphors regarding stances.

Treat their capabilities with OOC respect, and treat their storyline and plot with likewise respect. On the other hand, treating them ICly with respect is not always something that's good for plot - I RP as an AI which schemes to exterminate life from the universe, and has the same respect for life as you would have for a half-midget, half-giant rat hermaphroditic hooker going through your underwear drawer.

Obviously, refusing to lose is bad, but it's bad whether you do it with a stick, a rifle or a particle cannon, the tech isn't the problem there.

Yes, but the tech is often the excuse used. It gives you a leg to stand on, so to speak, when godmodding. "Ah-ha! You can't hurt me! I use unobtanium crystalline armor! It's not MY fault you can't figure out how to beat it!", as opposed to "I block your machinegun fire with my wooden stick I broke from a gum tree twenty seconds ago. I pwn."

Both are equally reprehensible, of course. However, the chances of someone doing the first are insanely higher than the chance of someone doing the second.

I RP as an AI which schemes to exterminate life from the universe, and has the same respect for life as you would have for a half-midget, half-giant rat hermaphroditic hooker going through your underwear drawer.

That is SO getting sigged.

One of the tricky things about FT, IMO, is deciding what is or isn't a "wank". In my early days here, I invented an "inpenetrable" shield, and people accused me of wankage. But the real intent wasn't to be better than they, it was to prevent nations with 10X my population from just steamrollering over me. People jumped on me for using the word "inpenetrable" and didn't seem to notice my admission that the shields had weaknesses.

There is a difference between wanting to fight and wanting to be victorious all the time. This is a common problem. In wars the victorious side doesn't win all the fights. This seems to be something which many people in nationstates can't accept. Lose, learn, and rise to fight another day.

Also, I have some problems with the way planets are played.

1) If people have the option, they will not overpopulate their planets, especially if they own more than one. There is excess room in future tech for the most part. Having several planets as a base makes it possible to have a portion of your population destroyed without losing the game. If the zylons come and destroy your planet, it won't be game over.

2) Industrial production works best in space in a vacuum environment free of contaminants. Yet we see lots of factory planets. The same goes for mining, asteroid mining is a far more efficient form of mining than terrestrial mining because of the cost of gravity wells.

3) Not all people will want to be on planets. This is especially true if there is artificial gravity, and adequate radiation protection.

NOTE: This is not a response to the foregoing, but the basis for a new discussion, based on events in another thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11937138#post11937138).

Here are some general observations and assumptions I have with regards to warp drives (and other drives) in combat. Warp drives operate in “normal” space (actually, this isn't an assumption - it's how my drives actually work; they use General Relativity to circumvent the limits of Special Relativity).


Most other FTL drives don't do this: they have to leave “normal” space to circumvent the limits of Special Relativity. Heim hyperdrives are an exception (and maybe the only exception).


Ships that have to leave “normal” space to travel faster than light tend to rely on either reaction or gravitic drives in “normal” space.


Combat takes place in “normal” space.


Warp drives are inertialess. Other drives are not.


Mass is irrelevant to inertialess (warp) and gravitic drives, but not to reaction drives.


Ships with inertialess (warp) drives can change course and speed instantly. Other ships must accelerate and decelerate.


Ships with inertialess (warp) and gravitic drives have their velocity (or acceleration, in the case of gravitic drives) limited by ship volume; reaction drives' acceleration is limited by ship mass.


Volume increases with the cube root of mass (this assumes constant ship density).


Assuming that a ship's powerplant-to-mass ratio is constant with varying ship size, large ships with inertialess (warp) and gravitic drives can travel faster than their smaller counterparts (this is why fighters make no sense in the world of Star Trek).


Because ships with inertialess (warp) drives can change course and speed instantly, whereas others can not, such ships have a maneuverability advantage in combat over their counterparts.


Barring the use of FTLI, warp-driven ships have higher maximum combat velocities than anything else; in the presence of FTLI, ships with gravitic and reaction drives can eventually reach higher velocities than ships with warp drives, although this takes time (in some cases, a long time).BTW, I consider Star Wars hyperdrives (and possibly Babylon 5 drives as well) as Heim hyperdrives, so neither of these require a second “normal” space drive; they are, however, still gravitic drives and so are not inertialess.

(Lest SW and B5 fans disagree about their drives not being inertialess, it's important to distinguish between systems that don't impart any detectable acceleration to masses under their influence from true inertialess drives. The effect of a gravitic drive on the ship it propels resembles the effect of gravity on a flying cannonball; the momentum of the cannonball must be overcome before it can start moving in the opposite direction, whereas a ship propelled by a warp drive has no momentum to overcome; it just takes off instantly in whatever direction its pilot wishes, regardless of its prior movement [by convention, warp ships need to be spun about their axis and reoriented in a different direction before taking off; you can also assume it takes a moment to reach full power, which would produce a kind of “pseudo-acceleration” - or not, as the case may be {I don't}].)

Just a couple questions, Kafers. I don't disagree with what you say.

1) So, reaction drives are those who are hampered by inertia?

2) So this makes you able to warp in and out of battle, taking potshots at your enemies. I.e like Klingons cloaking and then firing on their enemies?

3) FTLi works on these, right?

Regarding drives. There are a few problems with the way drives are used. It is easy to imagine FTL being used to get from one system to the next. However, using FTL in system except for very short bursts of speed would be very dangerous, gravity wells, space debris, ships, planets and all sorts of junk are in system. Unless your navigational computer can go faster than light you could end up in trouble very easily and crash into large bodies.

The other issue is using hyperdrive in system. Unless you have dimension riding technology-- the ability to quickly leave and reenter hyperspace or have your ship partially in hyperspace and real space, your ship can very easily run into objects in system.

The other issue is something called a "Mass Shadow", if you are directly in the path of an objects shadow in hyperspace you can be torn apart. You cannot be in hyperspace in the middle of a planet for example. This limits the ability to land in the middle of fleets without taking a huge risk of instant death for your ship and the ship you are in the shadow of. This is why ships wait until they are far aware from planetary bodies to activate a hyperdrive.

So, reaction drives are those who are hampered by inertia?It's the other way around, so no (A → B does not mean A' → B' ). Reaction drives are drives that operate on the Newtonian principle that, “For every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. Such drives employ thrust to produce momentum, which means that cutting the engine merely results in continued (ballistic) motion along a geodesic (“An object in motion remains in motion”).

Gravitic drives face the same limitations, save that they need no reaction to accelerate; they “create” a “pseudo-gravitational” force that changes their ballistic arc, the way planets deflect spacecraft as they pass by. But such vehicles still have momentum, which is why they aren't truly inertialess; they can't change course on a dime.

Warp drives don't impart momentum; it's not the ship moving [i]but space around it. The ship is effectively at rest, and as soon as space stops moving (which it does instantly as soon as its shape returns to “normal”), it stops moving, too. This creates some real curiosities: Kafer ships use “droplet” shields – essentially, a spray of fine charged particles are ejected around the vessel. If we had reaction or even gravitic drives, every time we accelerated, that “droplet” shield would be let behind. But instead, our warp field carries the “droplet” shield along with us; it's at rest with respect to surrounding space, and so are we.So this makes you able to warp in and out of battle, taking potshots at your enemies. I.e like Klingons cloaking and then firing on their enemies?Technically, yes – but for the sake or fairness I don't play it that way.

In the case of the Kafers in UII, warp efficiency drops sharply near a star or significant planet; in non-UII RP's, I allow much more flexibility in the use of FTL. For the sake of fairness, however, I don't allow extreme “yo-yo” tactics.FTLi works on these, right?Yes and no. Personally, I see no way FTLI could interfere with a warp drive, save if the FTLI generator was effectively capable of creating extreme gravitational fields, and even then...

Then, too, if I assume that FTLI could stop warp engines cold, then they would be a weapon I could never defeat, as they would leave my ships incapable of movement. Yet I understand that some people feel it's unfair to ignore FTLI, so I assume that it causes a reduction in warp efficiency that diminshes with the square of range.

In layman's terms, this means that it can slow me down, but not stop me. It might slow me down to the point where inertial drives could catch me, but I'd still have a maneuverability advantage due to the fact that I can turn on a dime, whereas (most) of my adversaries can't.

I rip into a screaming hell-dimension of pure energy, wailing Daemons and malevolent Gods as my form of FTL :D How would you stop me from entering the Warp, then? :P

Regarding drives. There are a few problems with the way drives are used. It is easy to imagine FTL being used to get from one system to the next. However, using FTL in system except for very short bursts of speed would be very dangerous, gravity wells, space debris, ships, planets and all sorts of junk are in system. Unless your navigational computer can go faster than light you could end up in trouble very easily and crash into large bodies.Bodies drifitng in-system move along predictable ballistic courses and move very slowly at that; generally the rule you can use is that anything big enough to pose a navigational danger can be seen and its course plotted at considerable distance; anything too small to see is probably not a threat (even modest shielding should deal with it).

Remember, interstellar flight itself requires anti-collision systems sufficient to deal with far greater impact energies than anything you'll ever encounter in-system.

Ok thanks Kafers, that cleared things up for me.

And if you are in any rps that need people, let me know, I'd be glad to help.

I rip into a screaming hell-dimension of pure energy, wailing Daemons and malevolent Gods as my form of FTL How would you stop me from entering the Warp, then? :P

....Um..ask real nicely and offer cookies?

There are two other systems involved in space flight. The first is a "Stable Wormhole." The other is a space folding drive, which basically folds the space between two points almost instanteously. I am not sure who uses a space folding drive, it would be incredibly expensive and energy intensive, but it would get you there a lot faster than most drives.

I am interested on what it would take to build a stable wormhole or stargate and how much it would cost to build one. The other option would be a hyperspace gate linking multiple points like in Babylon 5. These would be expensive, but would allow very fast travel of large amounts of cargo or ships between fixed points. You could send out your exploration ships lets say with a field drive or a warp drive, then open a gate when you found a suitable location for colonization. I would like to build a couple of them...

Warp drives are inertialess. Other drives are not.

I've never been overly fond of physics arguements over space technology, but I can kind of see where this one is going so I may as well get started here... but if Warp Drives are inertialess then why the hell does Star Trek always seem to refer to 'inertial dampeners' which I always thought was the reason they explained why their crew never got turned to paste when accelerating to warp... I suppose I can kind of see this in non-canonnical ST technology, but see the later comments.


Mass is irrelevant to inertialess (warp) and gravitic drives, but not to reaction drives.

See... the thing is, the whole concept is pretty much the same to me as going into 'Hyperspace' in order to avoid problems with physics, the only difference is it's being done in a different way. I don't mind the whole normal space thing, hell, I can technically still kind of scan normal space, I just see it as a slightly different variation on normal FTL.

Ships with inertialess (warp) drives can change course and speed instantly. Other ships must accelerate and decelerate.

I'm only going to quote this comment because the rest just further clears up exactly what this point means, and I have one reply to the whole thing. Depending on how it's done, I may or may not have a problem with it. For normal the use of a inertialess FTL drive seems alright as it's a means to get about... but problems arise should the concept be horribly abused against those who prefer to limit their FTL capabilities. Personally it takes my vessels time to actually charge up their jump drives and drains alot of power, so it has limited use in combat... I can't really do the combat jumps others seem to do. So having vessels of relative power instantly flanking my vessels, raiding and fleeing before I can properly hit them is a serious balance issue... assuming I don't have some kind of counter-measure, which looking at this FTLi wouldn't be one because they operate in "normal space" and break physics in a different way.

I suppose it would be interesting to deal with and given the power levels of most nations around it's about as potentially abusable as most other technologies... but I'd still expect a certain amount of effort to not totally overpower others with what is basically a really, wanky FTL system. Afterall, it's not just for getting around, it's the perfect mobility wank that with a bit of thought would make you very hard to target (afterall, you can change velocity and direction instantly and constantly at faster then light)... given how many others fight (often for dramatic reasons) at normal sub-light speeds it's a huge advantage. So a bit of concideration would need to be used at times otherwise it's just another 'I win' button like the blanket FTLi systems some people claim.

End of the day, this is still a co-operative science fiction story and realism is nice but not overly important. What is important is to keep in mind everyone has a concept and that we all want to enjoy the story... when one person seriously overshadows everyone else then it's usually only enjoyable for them, unless the others are content with that because they are roleplaying a fight against an unstoppable enemy. This isn't to say nations cannot have an advantage over one another, it's expected especially with different nations specialising in different fields, but there is a difference between having better forces in one field, and being untouchable.

I also have a thing against those nations who have crazy over the top concepts, say like the Borg, and then argue that balance wise it's acceptable because there is a weakness that could be looked up through their several thousand posts. Having a vague weakness in a powerful technology/magic doesn't make it fair. If anything it's a min-max technique which is a really bad cop-out to balancing.

This isn't so much to have a go at you, Kafers, as I 'd expect you probably have some limitations when needed in order to control the advantage claimed by perfect mobility, its more how I see the technology and it's usage.

Is there any thought on the concept of Transwarp drives being used by NSers?

In Star Trek, only the Borg have successful transwarp and I haven't seen anyone here RP as the Borg.

In Star Trek, only the Borg have successful transwarp and I haven't seen anyone here RP as the Borg.

I have (I mean seen someone else play Borg, the only wanky concept I recently messed about with was a joke magic nation), but then, I've been around for over three years now. At least a couple peope have tried it and I know for a fact that at one point the Fedral Union claimed either transwarp/slipstream FTL but he goes through phases and frankly FTL is usually the same thing regardless... I've seen some pretty crazy concepts in the past including a recent one where huge Stargate like devices seem to be able to pull their vessels pretty much from one point to pretty much any other.

So long as people are conciderate about their use and ask before they do anything overly distruptive, I don't mind.

I would assume you really couldn't carry around a wormhole gate device. The physics of expanding and collapsing the length of a wormhole would already be a little beyond most groups.

Really there is no problem what FTL system you use to get to a system. It is the problem of being able to instantly bring in new forces, and the problem of using FTL inside a solar system which causes problems.

The other issue I have is energy base:

1) It is fairly easy to imagine a fusion technical base with sonofusion, microfusion, cold fusion, etc. as a remote possibility, mixed with better battery technology and huge solar arrays.

2) How do you make antimatter technology affordable? Antimatter is not cheap to produce. There could be harvesters around blackholes, big antimatter rings in space, etc. I am trying to figure out this one.

3) Singularity technology might be possible in the far future, but what really interests me is something called a subspace energy pilon, you sink a large energy collector into hyperspace -- then you collect energy from a much more energy rich dimension-- light travels faster, etc. This is a wavehands technology. Any ideas.

The problem with what you are saying, Commonalitarianism, is exactly that. People like me, don't understand a lot of sonofusion and all that and how it works. So we go with an energy base that is unsaid and assume everyone knows what we are using. Now, if you have complaints, I personally would ask you what I could use and then, after all the options have been given, simply chose one and then edit my post(s) to show that and remember it in the future.

A lot of what I'm doing is playing with toys. I find technology to be entertaining, it helps me play the game better if the technology being used is understood. As long as it is not something outlandish like my 100 gigaton multicyclic fusion planetbuster missile destroys the main continent on your homeworld everything is assumed to work. Its that "sense of wonder" working which makes you want to wave your hands in the air and smile.

The point is, that the only thing limiting someone's power is that little number in your NS page.

Well, given that the 'limit' is meaningless to a dyed-in-the-wool wanker ['they're six million living Gods who can reshape space with their thoughts alone!'], it's really pointless leaning on it.

Treat their capabilities with OOC respect, and treat their storyline and plot with likewise respect. On the other hand, treating them ICly with respect is not always something that's good for plot - I RP as an AI which schemes to exterminate life from the universe, and has the same respect for life as you would have for a half-midget, half-giant rat hermaphroditic hooker going through your underwear drawer.

You're confusing what I mean by 'respect.' I don't necessarily mean to respect their society, the lives of their people, or anything else; I mean have an adequate sense of caution when you first meet their weapons and don't know what they can actually do yet. After all, FT is a big place, and even the most arrogant power will be aware that the fleet they just sighted could have capabilties vastly greater than their own.

You're confusing what I mean by 'respect.' I don't necessarily mean to respect their society, the lives of their people, or anything else; I mean have an adequate sense of caution when you first meet their weapons and don't know what they can actually do yet. After all, FT is a big place, and even the most arrogant power will be aware that the fleet they just sighted could have capabilties vastly greater than their own.

Well, that would be the smart thing to do... but lets face it, there are fair few players who will both ICly and OOCly assume their forces are better without confirmation which ultimately would have to be explained as their military getting lazy and comfortable with the idea they cannot be beaten, a huge weakness in itself as they underestimate everything.

Of course, looking at what happened here, it seems like someone didn't just completely disregard an unknown space nations forces, but then went on to OOCly back up that arrogance... thats when it becomes very irritating and perhaps even unacceptable, in my opinion. In Character arrogance is one thing, so long as you take your lumps for what amounts to a stupid action (jumping into the middle of a fleet of unknown specifications, anyone?) but to extend that arrogance with OOC complaints protecting the mistake is just crap.

...if Warp Drives are inertialess then why the hell does Star Trek always seem to refer to 'inertial dampeners' which I always thought was the reason they explained why their crew never got turned to paste when accelerating to warp... I suppose I can kind of see this in non-canonnical ST technology, but see the later comments.It's not ST (although there are similarities); it's derived from the RL theoretical work of Miguel Alcubierre, et al. As for those “inertial dampeners”, I have no idea what those are all about. And with respect to “breaking physics”, there's some debate over whether such drives do (just like Heim hyperdrives).I'd still expect a certain amount of effort to not totally overpower others with what is basically a really, wanky FTL system.As indicated above, careful use is required.

And it's got a lower “wankiness” factor than most FTL drives, not a higher one, BTW; after all, we don't have any basis for believing that “hyperspace” exists (except maybe brane theory), whereas General Relativity tells us that space warps are possible.

(BTW, Heim hyperdrives don't use “hyperspace” the way other “hyperspace” drives do; they also work in “normal” space, just like warp drives [but through a different mechanism].)

It's not ST (although there are similarities); it's derived from the RL theoretical work of Miguel Alcubierre, et al.

Oh, like hell it is. Alcubierre's drive has the very slight problem of requiring large quantities of exotic matter with negative energy, and a similarly enormous energy investment [apparently something like the energy content one would liberate by combining Jupiter-sized masses of matter and antimatter, though early estimates involved the energy content of the entire universe] just to get working. The matter distrubution in Alcubierre's warp 'bubble' isn't compatible with any current theory of matter.

The Star Trek 'Warp Drive' is even worse: the official explaination, according to Lawrence Krauss, has the minor problems of also requiring enormous amounts of negative energy matter, and requiring gravity to propagate faster than light, which it doesn't.

As for those “inertial dampeners”, I have no idea what those are all about.

They do exactly what they say they do, being one of the less odious pieces of Treknology. This means Warp Drive is not inertialess, or they wouldn't need specific structures in the ship to compensate for it.

And it's got a lower “wankiness” factor than most FTL drives, not a higher one, BTW; after all, we don't have any basis for believing that “hyperspace” exists (except maybe brane theory), whereas General Relativity tells us that space warps are possible.

With arbitary configurations of mass and energy that as far as we're aware can't actually exist in reality, yes.

Well, outlandish energy requirements are pretty much standard with FTL drives when you get down to it. Hell, most others (read: extradimensional travel) require shattering the fabric of reality to go anywhere, and frankly, I don't even think that's possible.

Well, outlandish energy requirements are pretty much standard with FTL drives when you get down to it. Hell, most others (read: extradimensional travel) require shattering the fabric of reality to go anywhere, and frankly, I don't even think that's possible.

As far as we're aware, neither is it possible to create any noticable amount of negative energy, because it can't be seperated from its partner positive energy; you certainly couldn't enough to power one of Alcubierre's bubbles without violating basic thermodynamics in the process. There's serious doubts about whether you could form one at all out in the real world, let alone direct and control it.

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html

Best quote here: 'A bubble large enough to enclose a starship 200 meters across would require a total amount of negative energy equal to 10 billion times the mass of the observable universe.'

Well, outlandish energy requirements are pretty much standard with FTL drives when you get down to it. Hell, most others (read: extradimensional travel) require shattering the fabric of reality to go anywhere, and frankly, I don't even think that's possible.Well... With exceptions (I.e. me - I'm limited by time and volume - or maybe mass, haven't yet made up my mind -, not energy. Mostly because limiting myself via energy makes me collide horribly with thermodynamics, which don't much like FTL...). But energy requirements are really your least worry - if one was perfectly honest, one would just say 'Screw it', and make it outright magical - pray to a god to grossly violate physics and drop you off somewhere faster than a photon could get there. And being a god, it might actually be able to inexplicably avoid violation of causality.

(It's almost sad I went with a technobabble explanation instead of this - I kind of like the elegance)

Anyway. 'tis is why one really shouldn't worry about the how - it's basically impossible (Quite unlike 'Conventional' propulsion and weaponry), so the how is irrelevant, as you're making up shit, anyway.

Or, in the case of the more pretentious players around, one reiterates popular (Pseudo-)science concepts time after time after time... Without really understanding them. But I'm sure it makes one feel better to sound 'Scientific'.

Knowing what it does suffices - does it cause gravitational or electromagnetic 'Traces' in transit or upon arrival? Is it completely 'Disconnected' during transit (This making observation impossible - both ways) or not (This enabling detection as well as navigation), can it be used at any time or only after 'Charging Up', how fast is it/ how great a distance can it 'Jump'...

But why it does it? Who cares.

Well, given that the 'limit' is meaningless to a dyed-in-the-wool wanker ['they're six million living Gods who can reshape space with their thoughts alone!'], it's really pointless leaning on it.

Or you could simply take population to mean power. It's fairly-well accepted across most of FT. A nation of 10 million is twice as powerful as a 5 million one. One capship worth of power per million people. It may not be the best way of determining power, but it works.

And it's a helluva a lot better than total and utter freeform, in many ways. Older people are more likely to be skilled. Again, it's nowhere near perfect, but it's also not horribly shit.

You're confusing what I mean by 'respect.' I don't necessarily mean to respect their society, the lives of their people, or anything else; I mean have an adequate sense of caution when you first meet their weapons and don't know what they can actually do yet. After all, FT is a big place, and even the most arrogant power will be aware that the fleet they just sighted could have capabilties vastly greater than their own.

And even the most arrogant power might not resist the chance to show off. Tell me. You meet these new people in space. You're a conquering race, and, by looking exceptional in your first meeting, you can subjugate them with little effort. Tell them who you are AFTER you crack open a few of their battleships. If you lose - well, there is a self-destruct function for a reason. There is story justification for IC arrogance.

Or you could simply take population to mean power. It's fairly-well accepted across most of FT. A nation of 10 million is twice as powerful as a 5 million one. One capship worth of power per million people. It may not be the best way of determining power, but it works.

Well, it works for you, but it's not something that should be strictly enforced against newbies in their intro RPs, which was my principle objection to it here. If ten million guy wants to be four times as powerful or half as powerful, and he can write it well, all power to him. My main objection is when FT limits are used to beat down on newbies, because then they're just rules that exist to keep the older FTers bigger and better.

There's no fun in a rule that rewards sheer luck [as in date of finding NS] over any kind of RP skill, after all.

And even the most arrogant power might not resist the chance to show off. Tell me. You meet these new people in space. You're a conquering race, and, by looking exceptional in your first meeting, you can subjugate them with little effort. Tell them who you are AFTER you crack open a few of their battleships. If you lose - well, there is a self-destruct function for a reason. There is story justification for IC arrogance.

Even that power would be likely to send in quiet sensor probes before pulling its guns out, to check what they were up against so as to better determine their plan of attack, check for cloaked ships, and various other things. Doing otherwise would be like an MT power staging an attack on a fleet of ships without knowing anything but their rough location and bearing. If you're a conquering nation, you'll know better than to attack an enemy force with no intel at all on its strength or firepower to judge which ships they'd least want you to destroy.

And even the most arrogant power might not resist the chance to show off. Tell me. You meet these new people in space. You're a conquering race, and, by looking exceptional in your first meeting, you can subjugate them with little effort. Tell them who you are AFTER you crack open a few of their battleships. If you lose - well, there is a self-destruct function for a reason. There is story justification for IC arrogance.

IC arrogance is ok, I see it all the time, but IC stupidity should come with IC consquences too. If you are so arrogant/keen that you jump before you look (a good example of this in fiction would be the Man/Kzin wars) then frankly you deserve to get hit with unexpected problems. That isn't to say that arrogant nations are stupid, there are tons that know when to leave the bragging for later and gather information first, then show off when they are content.

And it's got a lower “wankiness” factor than most FTL drives, not a higher one, BTW; after all, we don't have any basis for believing that “hyperspace” exists (except maybe brane theory), whereas General Relativity tells us that space warps are possible.

Hahaha, OH WOW.

So a limited FTL plot device that requires effort to charge up and activate is more wanky then a method of travel that allows you to constantly move faster then light (without being affected by common FTLi devices), changing direction and velocity at a constant rate in such a way that even the most advanced targeting computer a huge headache?

Do you even understand the basic reasoning I'm using here? They are both very unrealistic, as explained already pretty much all FTL travel is well into the realms of science fiction and is generally balanced out by the drawbacks set up by the player with plot devices (such as the requirement to actually charge the damn thing, using a huge amount of your power, or being unable to use it in combat to make things more fair). My point was that these 'warp drives' seem to do everything in such a way that means perfect mobility, where as most people just settle for getting around places.

But yeah, there are currently scientists theorising on time travel as well with numberous interesting books and ideas on how to actually do it, but that doesn't make temporal technology any less wanky or broken.

Oh, like hell it is.I wasn't aware that mods were allowed to tell us how our technology works. Perhaps I should reread the FAQ's. Can you point me to the one I've missed?Best quote here: 'A bubble large enough to enclose a starship 200 meters across would require a total amount of negative energy equal to 10 billion times the mass of the observable universe.'Unless I'm mistaken, that statement has been superceded by the RL work of Chris Van Den Broeck (http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9905084). It still requires ridiculous amounts of energy, but all interstellar travel requires ridiculous amounts of energy. C'est la vie.Alcubierre's drive has the very slight problem of requiring large quantities of exotic matter with negative energy, and a similarly enormous energy investment [apparently something like the energy content one would liberate by combining Jupiter-sized masses of matter and antimatter, though early estimates involved the energy content of the entire universe] just to get working. The matter distrubution in Alcubierre's warp 'bubble' isn't compatible with any current theory of matter.All superluminal travel requires negative energy (http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0204038).As far as we're aware, neither is it possible to create any noticable amount of negative energy, because it can't be seperated from its partner positive energy; you certainly couldn't enough to power one of Alcubierre's bubbles without violating basic thermodynamics in the process. There's serious doubts about whether you could form one at all out in the real world, let alone direct and control it.Formally, I employ “stutterwarp”, a form of “transtating warp drive (http://members.tripod.com/da_theoretical1/warpcourse.pdf)” (to use Dr. Paul Hoilland's term): my drive generates a series of short-lived warp manifolds (bubbles) that each collapse in a matter of femtoseconds precisely because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics; movement proceeds in “pulses” as the drive is cycled hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of times each second. In this sense, I'm not creating a permanent region of negative energy density (as most critics assume in their analysis of warp drives); I'm “borrowing” negative energy (from the vacuum) for a moment, and then “repaying” it with “interest” (in an energy usage pattern demonstrated graphically by a diagram (http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormimages/worm7.jpg) from the very article you cite (http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html)):

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormimages/worm7.jpg

(Oh, and BTW: The use of an intermittent warp field circumvents the problem you cite in passing regarding the existence of horizon-like structures withing the warp bubble (http://staff.science.nus.edu.sg/~scilooe/srp_2003/sci_paper/phy/research_paper/pua_yeong_heng.pdf) [what you mention as difficulties “direct(ing) and control(ing)” it; for those unfamiliar with the literature, it has been observed by some - with dissent from others - that the warp bubble is “causally disconnected” from the region of “flat” - i.e., unwarped - space within it]. The bubble exists for just a moment and then collapses, allowing the ship inside the ability to change course [however imperceptibly] or take other measures aimed at altering its movement through space.)Hahaha, OH WOW.

So a limited FTL plot device that requires effort to charge up and activate is more wanky then a method of travel that allows you to constantly move faster then light (without being affected by common FTLi devices), changing direction and velocity at a constant rate in such a way that even the most advanced targeting computer a huge headache?Considering that there is at least a shadow of a theory behind warp drives, while there is nothing at all in our understanding of physics to justify hyperspace or jump drives (unless you want to count speculations arising from thought on a few of the GUT's [Grand Unification Theories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_unification_theory)] that are floating around out there, like the proposal for building a Heim hyperdrive (http://www.hpcc-space.de/publications/documents/aiaa2004-3700-a4.pdf) or speculations on true hyperspace travel based on brane theory (http://www.geocities.com/lobawarp/open-2004-030.pdf)), I can't understand how you can consider the pure inventions of science fiction writers and filmmakers less “wanky” than what I'm doing here. It's like anything from fiction - even the utterly bizarre stuff, like Warhammer 40,000's Immaterium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaterium_(Warhammer_40,000)) is O.K., but speculations based on RL scientific papers are not. The inversion of art and RL, one that defines art as perfectly acceptable, but RL as beyond the pale, totally mystifies me.

(And, BTW: I see nobody here condemning the use of wormholes for FTL travel, even though wormholes require even more negative energy than warp drives do and - worse - require that these huge negative energy densities be sustained for impossibly long time intervals. That tells me that the criticisms leveled here against Broeck-Alcubierre warp drives aren't based on any kind of even-handed application of scientific criticism at all; they're based on the idea that a technology's acceptability is in direct proportion to its use in science fiction - and nothing else.)

As far as FTLI is concerned, I had [I]thought everybody understood that the technology is something folks here in II have pulled out of thin air for the sole purpose of preventing tactics most folks consider unacceptable (“yo-yo” attacks) - IOW, that there's no basis whatsoever in RL or anywhere else for such technology. The problem with FTLI is that it implicitly assumes that all vessels have two separate drive systems; we turn on our FTLI devices, and people's FTL drives magically stop working, where as their “sublight” engines still do.

The problem with that, as you can readily see, is that cultures with drives that combine both functions get totally burned by FTLI devices if their effect is absolute - IOW, if these devices shut their drives down altogether. So why shouldn't a nation that uses a Broeck-Alcubierre warp drive or a Heim hyperdrive be able to say, “O.K., your FTLI device slows me down [or prevents me from achieving peak velocity], but it doesn't stop my vessels dead in space”. The alternative would be for me and people like me to pull an “STLI” device out of thin air and tell everybody else that they can't move, either; were we to do that, one can barely imagine the screams of outrage that would result.

So before you holler “wank!” about someone dismissing your wholly fabricated plot device as pure fantasy, or telling you that its effects on them are limited to nonexistent, you'd best think about what you're saying. It's a godmod for you to tell me how my systems work and how your fantasy “jamming” equipment affects them; the only issue - as I think most people here would agree upon reflection - is whether or not anybody's use of technology is abusive or whether it is fair. That goes for mine, yours, or anybody else's.

And in similar fashion, before folks go around telling people that they're not allowed to use technology based (however speculatively) on RL science, and that they have to limit themselves to commonly-accepted science fiction staples because those are somehow less “wanky” (which in this context, can only really mean more “socially acceptable”), think about what that implies. So what if FT isn't RL? Does it have to be pure fantasy? Does it have to be space opera? Is there some reason why one person's idea of having magical starships powered by demons, or someone's vision of vast cavernous leviathan biological entities mysteriously endowed with the power to travel faster than light and unleash awesome energies, or someone's adoption of psychic aportation and telekinesis as the foundations of their FT technology, should all be acceptable, while someone else's desire to put together something that might - with a little reasoned speculation - actually exist is utterly unacceptable?

Before you criticize your neighbor for the mote in his eye, remove the beam from yours. Unless, of course, you're a mod - in which case you're allowed to tell us what technology we can and can not use in our RP, how it works, etc., etc., etc.

A theoretical antigravity type drive like a Heim drive would not require antimatter to power it. If there are plans to test such a thing already, it would probably be with a nuclear type power plant currently. Fusion could probably power the drive. You have to have enough power to charge up the torus to create the necessary energy field.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg18925331.200-take-a-leap-into-hyperspace.html

Also, building a stable wormhole would not require antimatter to power the holes in space. It would be a matter of huge amounts of electrical energy, but this energy could come from practically any source, huge solar arrays, nuclear generators, etc.

Antimatter is ridiculously expensive.

Before you criticize your neighbor for the mote in his eye, remove the beam from yours. Unless, of course, you're a mod - in which case you're allowed to tell us what technology we can and can not use in our RP, how it works, etc., etc., etc.

Mods aren't players now?

Seriously, chill out already, GMC isn't here as a moderator telling you/everyone else how to play the game. He's here like everyone else giving their opinion on how the game works, on what is abusive and what isn't.

Had you actually taken the time to try and understand my meaning instead of assuming outright saying that your technology is unacceptable then maybe you would realise that myself and others don't actually mind wank... hell, I fully admit that pretty much every nation's FTL technology is basically a huge fictional device designed to get us places without worrying about the annoying reality of space travel.

However, and this is where I think you are getting mixed up, I feel that some technologies are more abusive then others and needs balancing, FTLi included. Personally I would agree that when people pull out FTLi and claim that all of your propulsion systems and perhaps even weapons go down then that often is horrible wank in itself (unless of course, you don't mind that)... however, if it's a balancing act to stop you from having completely and utter perfect mobility from a inertia-less drive with practically no weaknesses and it just tries to bring you to their level (or close to, but still better) then thats fairly understandable, so long as they actually had such a device to begin with. That way, both sides could make a compromise.

The point is, I don't care that much about realism that much, I suppose there is a point where I have to say "Fuck that, thats stupid" but given that I RP with pretty much everyone (including right now, a rather wanked up ST player) I think it's fair to say I don't care that much.

I don't tell you how to run your shit... I'm telling you I'd expect balancing or I'd just outright ignore it for being horribly beyond me to the point where fighting would be utterly pointless, I can't properly target a vessel which is constantly changing velocity and direction at speeds faster then light, unless you're vessels did practically no damage to my thick-shieldless hulls I'd expect every fight to be over quite literally in a flash. This isn't about saying "You can't use that" as I've never actually said that once, this is about expecting other players to understand the idea of balance and cooperation, you know, the thing we've been bitching at the OP for because he jumped into the middle of a unknown fleet and then practically fought them all without taking a sctratch because their 'FTLi' couldn't stop them and they just disapeared before taking damage each time. I've played with entirely magic based nations who understand the idea of balance better then this, sure they may have characters who could kill everyone in the room with but a thought... but most of these players know how to play these characters in such a way that it's only a plot point of interest, not a weapon to be used against other nations. Same can be said about alot of 'wank' in nationstates... it's 'socially acceptable' as you put it, providing you limit it so not to horribly overwhelm people.

If you want to play almost entirely realist you are free to do so, I'm not telling you othewise and I never did say you couldn't do so. We never said you can't use warp drives, we didn't even say its the most wanky thing out there... I RP with a nation that has a freaking star god walking about so perfect mobility is far from the worse I've seen. I was just offering criticism to your post because, well, you posted it and without some kind of criticism you wouldn't understand why I have an issue with perfect mobility. I've done the same countless times against others in the past, about FTLi wank, about Jedi wank and about horrible, horrible nanite wank (read: grey goo WMD). Ultimately in each post my point wasn't about how it's wrong to use such technology, but how it's wrong to abuse such technologies.

A theoretical antigravity type drive like a Heim drive would not require antimatter to power it. If there are plans to test such a thing already, it would probably be with a nuclear type power plant currently. Fusion could probably power the drive. You have to have enough power to charge up the torus to create the necessary energy field.

http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg18925331.200-take-a-leap-into-hyperspace.html

Also, building a stable wormhole would not require antimatter to power the holes in space. It would be a matter of huge amounts of electrical energy, but this energy could come from practically any source, huge solar arrays, nuclear generators, etc.

Antimatter is ridiculously expensive.Negative energy isn't antimatter. It's an deficit relative to the zero-point energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy) level of space itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy) - the vacuum.

Wormholes require negative energy (in some articles you'll see this referred to as “exotic matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter)”) to hold the throat of the wormhole open during passage; without such energy (or matter) the wormhole would collapse within the barest fraction of a second after its creation.

One of the best uses of antimatter would be as part of an energy storage system, similar to the way hydrogen and oxygen are used in a fuel cell (and annihilation battery, if you will).

Heim hyperdrives are not, as far as I can tell, “true” hyperdrives. They take advantage of the notion that a sublight velocity in Heim's six- (or eight- or twelve-dimensional) “hyperspace” (not a separate space from our one, but merely a mathematical extension of our Minkowskian four-dimensional “space-time”) could result in a displacement within Cartesian three-dimensional “physical” or “real” space that appears to exceed the speed of light.

So you simply crank up your Heim drive and take off like a shot, breaking the “light barrier” as though it were nothing.

The problem with Heim theory - as with all GUT's - is one of semi-circularity. These theories assume that all forces are related (i.e., that gravity, electro-magnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces, everything) are all just manifestations of the geometry of space-time; that's an assumption that permits such wonders as anti-gravity and nuclear damper fields, but its still an assumption all the same, because there's nothing to suggest (other than an absolute faith in the simplicity of the Universe) that all of these forces are in fact the same.

I posted what I posted on inertialess (warp) drives to address questions that might arise through its use in another thread. That's what this thread is for, right?

I believe that I strongly suggested in that first post that care had to be taken to avoid abuse. If all you're doing is agreeing with me (perhaps with emphasis), none of the criticism that you've offered was really necessary - or productive.

Well... With exceptions (I.e. me - I'm limited by time and volume - or maybe mass, haven't yet made up my mind -, not energy. Mostly because limiting myself via energy makes me collide horribly with thermodynamics, which don't much like FTL...). But energy requirements are really your least worry - if one was perfectly honest, one would just say 'Screw it', and make it outright magical - pray to a god to grossly violate physics and drop you off somewhere faster than a photon could get there. And being a god, it might actually be able to inexplicably avoid violation of causality.
Oh, I'm not arguing with you. In fact, Otagia's primary FTL resembles the method you just listed there more than anything else. As you've said, I just say "screw it" and have fun with an FTL method that's thematically appealing to me (think Frank Herbert's Navigators), which, frankly, is probably the best thing to do in this situation

Well, it works for you, but it's not something that should be strictly enforced against newbies in their intro RPs, which was my principle objection to it here. If ten million guy wants to be four times as powerful or half as powerful, and he can write it well, all power to him. My main objection is when FT limits are used to beat down on newbies, because then they're just rules that exist to keep the older FTers bigger and better.
But how is this different from when MT nations do the same thing? For example, the Borman Empire does it pretty much every time I see them, simply using their size to assimilate new nations, whether they like it or not.

I wasn't aware that mods were allowed to tell us how our technology works. Perhaps I should reread the FAQ's. Can you point me to the one I've missed?

Can you point me to where I made an official ruling as a moderator regarding this discussion?

I'm not creating a permanent region of negative energy density (as most critics assume in their analysis of warp drives); I'm “borrowing” negative energy (from the vacuum) for a moment, and then “repaying” it with “interest”

You can't get enough. The more negative energy you get, the less time it lasts, and you need a hell of a lot for this.

I can't understand how you can consider the pure inventions of science fiction writers and filmmakers less “wanky” than what I'm doing here.

I don't. Neither do I consider them more wanky. Hyperspace drives, 40k warp, and so on require an area of space with arbitary properties not known to be capable of existing. Warp bubbles require an arbitary configuration of matter and energy not known to be capable of existing.

My objection was to your claim of greater realism from a theory with no known ability to be transferred to a practical apparatus.

That tells me that the criticisms leveled here against Broeck-Alcubierre warp drives aren't based on any kind of even-handed application of scientific criticism at all; they're based on the idea that a technology's acceptability is in direct proportion to its use in science fiction [IOW, it's popularity] - and nothing else.

Nonsense, you're just making strawmen to beat up. My criticism was based on your claims that a theory that violates all known laws governing the behaviour of matter is somehow less wanky than any other FTL system. All FTL is equally wanky and ridiculous.

But how is this different from when MT nations do the same thing? For example, the Borman Empire does it pretty much every time I see them, simply using their size to assimilate new nations, whether they like it or not.It isn't - it's equally ludicrous overcompensation ('MUST PROVE I'M HUGE. MUST KILL NEWBIES) -, regardless of the (Technological) environment it happens in (Not that I particularly agree with GMC, re: Population issues, but I rather dislike the dickwaving-for-the-sake-of-it).

But this thread's about the SciFi facet of NS, so...

After all, FT is a big place, and even the most arrogant power will be aware that the fleet they just sighted could have capabilties vastly greater than their own.

Unless you deliberately RP your people as 'suicidally arrogant'.

For example, my people - who are generally arrogant - consider the worst possible insult to their self-esteem a suggestion that they may be cowed by hostile force (which does indeed sometimes happen, but this doesn't mean suggesting it doesn't insult them). So an unknown starship emerging from space and trying to threaten Allaneans with it's guns would likely be treated with suicidal arrogance, and in fact this would be an unlikely method to get your way.

But there .. are ways to threaten my people into submission. Only, it's more often easier to just kill their ass. In fact, it's very easy. But at any rate... back to the scheduled discussion.

I believe that I strongly suggested in that first post that care had to be taken to avoid abuse. If all you're doing is agreeing with me (perhaps with emphasis), none of the criticism that you've offered was really necessary - or productive.

And I beleive my first post was pretty much agreeing and offering my opinion on the technology... you know, what this thread is also for.

Unless you deliberately RP your people as 'suicidally arrogant'.

For example, my people - who are generally arrogant - consider the worst possible insult to their self-esteem a suggestion that they may be cowed by hostile force (which does indeed sometimes happen, but this doesn't mean suggesting it doesn't insult them).

Well, this coming from a nation that has actually paid for it's suicidal arrogance with it's own peoples blood I'd confidently say that from time to time you are capable of roleplaying and rolling with the concequences of that arrogance.

But how is this different from when MT nations do the same thing? For example, the Borman Empire does it pretty much every time I see them, simply using their size to assimilate new nations, whether they like it or not.

It's not... assuming this is correct (because it's been a long time since I've actually checked, I used to keep up with these things) then it's pretty much just as bad as any other technology base doing it. Rolling over new players is usually pretty crappy, though I'll accept that it's possible to get something like OOC permission... but from a few situations I remember it's not uncommon for some nation to basically start anew, go for a controversial concept such a nation of feminists and then basically have several whole alliances looking to invade them, shouting down their ears about how inferiour they are and how they are going to get owned.

It's ugly and hardly ever produces good RP, most of the time the poor bastard leaves nationstates or starts a new nation because whatever interesting idea they had will undoubtably have been destroyed without some kind of help, this being the case for one nation I remember, but another like it ended up fading away with all the nations wanting to invade her still waiting for a post.

Better to make it at least be kind of fair and offer a good fight instead of just rolling over some poor bastard who happens to rub you up the wrong way.

Well, this coming from a nation that has actually paid for it's suicidal arrogance with it's own peoples blood I'd confidently say that from time to time you are capable of roleplaying and rolling with the concequences of that arrogance.

And this is exactly my point Iuthia, that there's nothing wrong with roleplaying any kind of nation, even if they're extremely arrogant fucktards, if you indeed are willing to accept the consequences thereof.

Unless you deliberately RP your people as 'suicidally arrogant'.

Well, it's somewhat unlikely that such people would ever get into space to begin with, given suicidal arrogance and good design ethics don't tend to mix well.

So an unknown starship emerging from space and trying to threaten Allaneans with it's guns would likely be treated with suicidal arrogance, and in fact this would be an unlikely method to get your way.

What about an unknown starship not threatening them at all, though?

O.K., it's time to get everybody mad at me again.

Why does everybody always respond to an event of interest with an entire fleet? I'm incredibly tired of seeing Contestants A, B, C, and D all arrive at Planet X with dozens, scores, maybe even hundred;s of ships and then start hurling salvos of thousands or even tens of thousands of missiles at each other. Sheer insanity!

In about half a dozen RP's, I've shown up with a single cruiser, only to have somebody's huge fleet of pwnage let fly with a thousand missiles. Hello?

Tell me, is this really an interesting RP thread?Me: My battlecruiser arrives in system and approaches the planet.
You: My 100 ships fire 1,000 missiles at you.
Me: O.K., my battlecruiser is vaporized.
You: Yes!!!! I rock!!! What's your next move?
Me:: There is no next move. My ship is gone. End of thread.Let's be serious for a minute: if you fire 100 missiles at a single ship, it will be destroyed. Period. Even the best anti-missile defenses probably can't catch more than 98-99% of all incoming fire, which means that something will get through. The one or two missiles that get through will probably be enough to achieve a kill, due to Oppenheimer's Law:Nothing can survive a direct hit by a boosted fission device with a yield of 150KT or more.But that's not the worst of it: the whole situation is absurd to begin with because no nation is ever going to respond to some minor incident somewhere with an entire battle fleet, or even a large squadron.

You see, responding to every single incident in overwhelming numbers violates the ages-old military principle of Economy of Force: never use more force than is needed to reasonably assure operational success.

There are people out there, of course, who will tell you that this is utter garbage. “Go with everything, or don't go at all,” they say. Fine, but consider that every fleet operation consumes fuel/energy, commits equipment and personnel in a way that prevents their use elsewhere, puts wear and tear on equipment, etc. Sending everything – or even too much – is a waste of resources.

The problem is that all too often people ignore the costs of overreaction. Fuel or energy costs? There are none! Wear and tear on my ships? There is none! Sending people somewhere and not having them available for something more important? My ships travel faster than light! I can move them anywhere instantly, at the speed of thought, so why not send everything? If I'm attacked somewhere else, I'll just jump there. No problem.

If you were going to be realistic, of course, you'd never do that. You would likely send a single ship, of the smallest kind you have that's capable of long-term, independent operations. That's in keeping with RL naval history, where a brig, sloop, or frigate (in the Age of Fighting Sail), a light or protected cruiser (in the Dreadnought or Inter-War Eras), or a destroyer or fleet submarine (in the Modern Era) would be used for long range “cruising” and “presence” operations. In some cases (piracy, distress, etc.) you might even limit yourself to a cutter or gunboat – two or three if things looked serious.

But there's no way you'd ever send a battleship or aircraft carrier, let alone a task force or fleet (what I call a battlecruiser is really what most people would call a medium or protected cruiser - basically, something with the firepower of a Klingon D-7). The big stuff shows up when war is immanent and the threat to interests significant, or even only when war has broken out. It's just not economical to send that much force otherwise.

Likewise, ships should only be able to fire spreads of 2-4 torpedoes each, or discharge 4-6 large particle beam or laser weapons (not counting point defense). This gives each side a chance of survival and makes actions interesting. In contrast, if you fire 200 torpedoes at me, the unspoken message you're sending me is: “Go away. I don't want to play with you.”

In which case that's exactly what I'll do – and it's what I think everybody ought to due, until we get numberwankflation under control. Übernuke everyone, and you ought to be left to play by yourself.

Now go ahead an blaze away with your thousand missiles to make me shut up and continue wanking along the way you have been.

O.K., it's time to get everybody mad at me again.

Why does everybody always respond to an event of interest with an entire fleet? I'm incredibly tired of seeing Contestants A, B, C, and D all arrive at Planet X with dozens, scores, maybe even hundred;s of ships and then start hurling salvos of thousands or even tens of thousands of missiles at each other. Sheer insanity!

In about half a dozen RP's, I've shown up with a single cruiser, only to have somebody's huge fleet of pwnage let fly with a thousand missiles. Hello?

Tell me, is this really an interesting RP thread?Let's be serious for a minute: if you fire 100 missiles at a single ship, it will be destroyed. Period. Even the best anti-missile defenses probably can't catch more than 98-99% of all incoming fire, which means that something will get through. The one or two missiles that get through will probably be enough to achieve a kill, due to Oppenheimer's Law:But that's not the worst of it: the whole situation is absurd to begin with because no nation is ever going to respond to some minor incident somewhere with an entire battle fleet, or even a large squadron.
-Snip-


Never played MT, I'm guessing?
People throw up thousands of missiles all the time in MT (See Kraven in the Kraven-Pyth war, against my naval armada). You can intercept large chunks of them.
And 1-2 missiles can destroy a ship? Not in MT, not in PMT, not in FT, unless it's your missile wank of God. Three proton torpedoes does not destroy a Star Destroyer. Three photon torpedoes does not destroy a Cardassian Galor-class.

That also kinda tells me that you've fallen in with the "wrong" RPers in the II. There are plenty of us who only send a scout squadron (my light group that does what the name implies) or a single ship or a few shuttles. There are only a few who send the 100-ship GodWank fleets out.

Oppenheimer's law doesn't apply to an environment wherein the laws of physics are violated every time something happens, and in an environment wherein alloys capable of surviving megaton-scale explosions is common place.

This isn't a Ben Bova novel.

1-2 missiles can easily destroy a sea vessel in MT or PMT, either through making one that simply has a huge warhead, or programming a missile to detonate in the water next to a ship, using the shockwaves to bypass the armor and cause direct internal damage. Mines work the same way.

In about half a dozen RP's, I've shown up with a single cruiser, only to have somebody's huge fleet of pwnage let fly with a thousand missiles. Hello?

This might tell you that showing up with one small warship might as well be showing up with zero warships. Send probes ahead if you want to see what's going on.

Let's be serious for a minute: if you fire 100 missiles at a single ship, it will be destroyed. Period. Even the best anti-missile defenses probably can't catch more than 98-99% of all incoming fire, which means that something will get through.

False application of percentages. A system which is 99% accurate has a 99% chance of hitting each projectile. That means there's a fair chance it can shoot down all incoming projectiles in a given situation.

The one or two missiles that get through will probably be enough to achieve a kill, due to Oppenheimer's Law:

'Nothing can survive a direct hit by a boosted fission device with a yield of 150KT or more.'

Oppenheimer was a brilliant nuclear physicist, but he certainly wasn't qualified to make such a statement regarding every material that could ever potentially exist; nevermind there was no way he could be talking about energy shielding. He was talking about potential military targets, most likely.

Your interpretation of his comment is easily disproved. A star can shrug off an impact hundreds of times that size with laughable ease. The Earth has survived immense contact detonations, with the largest known the ~100 teraton K-T asteroid that's thought to have been responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs. Many asteroids could take such an explosion in their stride.

But that's not the worst of it: the whole situation is absurd to begin with because no nation is ever going to respond to some minor incident somewhere with an entire battle fleet, or even a large squadron.

This rather depends on how severe the incident is judged to be. If an enemy carrier appeared off the coast of Midway Island tomorrow, you'd better believe most of the US fleet would be out there like a shot.

You see, responding to every single incident in overwhelming numbers violates the ages-old military principle of Economy of Force: never use more force than is needed to reasonably assure operational success.

In the case of spacedy operations, this might be 'a lot more than you think' given cloaks and the fact the a ship's capabilities are likely to be unknown to you when you first engage it. And if you have a thousand ships, sending thirty or so out is going to allow you to be assured of victory in any combat situation without overly taxing your resources.

Sending everything – or even too much – is a waste of resources.

On the other hand, sending the absolute minimum you think necessary is more likely to result in de facto losses of material, since you have no extra strength if anything goes wrong. Planning as if everything's going to go the way you want it to lost the US over a dozen men in Mogadishu and the British thousands during Operation Market Garden.

If you were going to be realistic, of course, you'd never do that. You would likely send a single ship, of the smallest kind you have that's capable of long-term, independent operations.

Ah, and we segue into 'Star Trek is most realistic because the security of the Federation is often dependant on the only ship available.' The percieved importance of the mission would govern the size of the deployment; but one ship, unless it's an unmanned probe, is hugely unlikely, since if anything goes wrong, it's dead. A small warship is going to be a gunnery target without support.

More to the point, if you can afford to bring overwhelming force to bear, you would do so. There's no point in sending enough to just win in a straight-up fight if you can annihilate them without breaking a sweat or overstretching your resources.

But there's no way you'd ever send a battleship or aircraft carrier, let alone a task force or fleet (what I call a battlecruiser is really what most people would call a medium or protected cruiser - basically, something with the firepower of a Klingon D-7).

Really? I recall the British and Americans doing just that several times during the span of the Cold War.

It's just not economical to send that much force otherwise.

This does rather depend on what you think is going to happen if you don't send that much force. And there's always intimidation as a backup: the US certainly didn't need their battleships in Vietnam and the Gulf War.

Likewise, ships should only be able to fire spreads of 2-4 torpedoes each, or discharge 4-6 large particle beam or laser weapons (not counting point defense).

Why? A real ship can fire all its guns at once, and what's this whole nonsense about 'spreads of torpedoes?' Sane spacedyships store their missiles in VLS-type systems they can rapidly empty at enemies, not silly single-shot mechanically loaded tubes.

This gives each side a chance of survival and makes actions interesting.

We all know combat is about giving the other side a chance of survival, after all.

Now go ahead an blaze away with your thousand missiles to make me shut up and continue wanking along the way you have been.

Well, if you insist on using a quote that obviously doesn't mean what you think it means to justify this attitude, then sure, a thousand missiles must be a real threat. If you, say, have a shield and don't use entirely false arguments about what a 99% hitrate would mean, you have a somewhat better chance.

VLS-type systems they can rapidly empty at enemies, not silly single-shot mechanically loaded tubes.

U.O.F. Spear of Utia(a ship for my FT nation BTW) (http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6308/z18aij0.jpg)


single shot stuff is so...wing commander movie.

False application of percentages. A system which is 99% accurate has a 99% chance of hitting each projectile. That means there's a fair chance it can shoot down all incoming projectiles in a given situation.
Don't mean to intrude, but wouldn't that 'fair chance' be only about a 1 in 3 probability of successfully intercepting all 100 missiles, assuming that each event is independent (and given a 99% chance of destroying one)?

Don't mean to intrude, but wouldn't that 'fair chance' be about a 1 in 3 probability of successfully intercepting all 100 missiles, assuming that each event is independent?

Something like that, ya. Still, a 33% chance at total interception of the whole volley, plus shields, plus FT armour means a 100 missile deployment is unlikely to hit, let alone destroy an FT vessel.

Most FT warships have shields you couldn't dent with a 150 kiloton head; ~64 megaton photorps don't achieve instant penetration or instant destruction in Trek, the Colonial Battlestar Galactica could expand her shields to cover one entire hemisphere of a planet and still resist a full-scale nuclear strike from a PMT power with them [plus her hull is thermally superconductive], and the figures for Imperial vessels in Star Wars defy any attempt at penetration with something so puny as a 150KT device.

Nothing can survive a direct hit by a boosted fission device with a yield of 150KT or more. I'm curious. Energy requirements of your ships at max. output, and their reactor volume (And, for that matter, reactor surface area)?

I'd certainly agree with you in terms of hard SciFi, but for someone who is constantly babbling about his 1337 FTL and assorted exotic weapons (Both of which tend to require rather large amounts of energy), this statement strikes me as odd - damage the target, sure. But destroy it completely? I've my doubts - the thermal properties of the armour should be vaguely similar to that of the reactors, and allow to deal with as much energy as the latter.

And 1-2 missiles can destroy a ship? Not in MT*Peers at the HMS Sheffield*

This said, in space, missiles are... More problematic, because the targets are faster (Relative to the missile), and there's no horizon - direct fire over absurd distances ahoy! Including 'Point' Defence, of course.

But with the appropriate missiles, ten to twenty missiles should get a kill - notably less cost effective than IRL (Hence the fondless of direct fire weapons in spaaaaaace), but hardly impossible.

Oh. With 'Appropriate Missile', I mean just that - not tiddly little cruise missile equivalents that get swatted by widebeam fire. More like... Something with a size somewhere in between ICBM & frigate (RL one), armoured up, maybe protected by shields (Though I wouldn't do it - it's single-use, no need to waste the resources), and absurd EW/ stealth measures (The latter is only a good idea at a distance, mind - it'd be disastrous once the target starts firing) to keep it going.

Add to this some missile shepherds - frigates, if you will - to protect the missiles on their approach (By extending their shields if they have 'em, or simply bothering the opponent enough so they have to concentrate on either the frigates or the missile, and take losses regardless), which could also eliminate countermissile spam, and you've a fairly effective means to kill your target - of course, the missiles will be less of a standoff munition and more, ah... Fireship-esque, but it works.

And given the warheads you can fit on such monstrosities (doubledigit mega- to doubledigit gigatons when using MT-thermonukes - nevermind whatever sillyness SciFi might want to use), you get nice area effects, too.

The only nuclear weapon I would think that could penetrate a future tech shield would be something like a three stage nuclear weapon-- it explodes three times in the same spot-- fusion--fission-fusion, with very high yield multi-megaton range.

Depends on the shields, really. *shrug* Also, GMC, you do realize proton torpedoes are nukes, and those damage Star Wars shields fine?

People who make SF movies and write SF books have a long history of just pulling numbers out of their asses and not actually thinking about what they're doing.

Heinlein variant society. Our society has universal conscription-- however the conscription is not completely military, it also includes police, fire, emergency services, etc. So we have an interesting situation balancing those who want non-military vs. military conscription. The first part is general military, then a choice for either military or non-military. This means we have a lot of police and other services...

Three proton torpedoes does not destroy a Star Destroyer.
This would be because the proton torpedo is a weapon used by fighter craft. And yes, three of them will destroy an X-wing. Effortlessly. A hundred times over.
Three photon torpedoes does not destroy a Cardassian Galor-class.Pretty sure they do... And this again depends on the missile. One severely attenuated impact from a Romulan plasma torpedo is sufficient to nearly-destroy the USS Enterprise.

The Romulan torpedo sounds like a "plasmoid"-- stable plasma ball which has been pumped full of microwave radiation to heat the plasma and make it even more stable. There have been successful experiments in making ball lightning in the laboratory recently. I would imagine in future tech, it would be possible to superheat plasmoids, make them more stable, and fire them like torpedoes pushing them with impellers or grav guns to near light speed.

Depends on the shields, really. *shrug* Also, GMC, you do realize proton torpedoes are nukes, and those damage Star Wars shields fine?

Well, that fact that a 150 KT nuke won't damage a cruiser-sized SW ship doesn't mean that they're immune to nuclear weapons, though even fighters seem to be able to shrug off blasts that destroy asteroids [see Attack of the Clones. Or rather don't see it, it sucks.].

I would imagine in future tech, it would be possible to superheat plasmoids, make them more stable, and fire them like torpedoes pushing them with impellers or grav guns to near light speed.

Firing at Cfrac that would be called a particle beam.

You are right it would be like a particle beam, except instead of a thin beam you would have big ball of plasma (charged particles at the end. More like a particle cannon than a beam.

You are right it would be like a particle beam, except instead of a thin beam you would have big ball of plasma at the end.

Well, no, actually. The ball would stretch out into a long bolt while being accelerated, it would basically look like a beam when you got around to firing it.

-snip-
Pretty sure they do... And this again depends on the missile. One severely attenuated impact from a Romulan plasma torpedo is sufficient to nearly-destroy the USS Enterprise.

Pretty sure they don't. Not in DS9, in any case. Photon Torpedo, stock.

Pretty sure they don't. Not in DS9, in any case. Photon Torpedo, stock.

Depends, really. One photorp will seldom take down the Enterprise's shields and generally won't destroy her either [See Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country where the Enterprise was hit several times right through her shields and didn't die] but other times will seriously damage her. Note also that one TNG episode with the time loop where the Enterprise was repeatedly destroyed by a minor glancing hit to one nacelle that caused her to explode.

Also, you sig is somewhat larger than the rules allow.

Photon torpedoes have a variable yield.

Photon torpedoes have a variable yield.

Technically they shouldn't have as matter / antimatter devices with a fixed AM content [they have an upper limit of around 64 megatons and would realistically have about 24-32 in an actual reaction], but given their actual behaviour they do appear to be able to vary yield from First Contact's ridiculously weak ones up to behaviour that suggests them to be megaton-range weapons.

This is actually due to inconsistant writing, but in-universe we have to accept that they have some way of preventing part of their payload reacting, or they just eject it into space before impact.

Technically they shouldn't have as matter / antimatter devices with a fixed AM content [they have an upper limit of around 64 megatons and would realistically have about 24-32 in an actual reaction], but given their actual behaviour they do appear to be able to vary yield from First Contact's ridiculously weak ones up to behaviour that suggests them to be megaton-range weapons.

This is actually due to inconsistant writing, but in-universe we have to accept that they have some way of preventing part of their payload reacting, or they just eject it into space before impact.

No they can put a different amount of anti-matter in each torpedo.

No they can put a different amount of anti-matter in each torpedo.

That doesn't actually ever happen, though. We've seen the torpedo rooms on the Enterprise and on Voyager: they're unmanned, and all adjustments to torpedo warheads are done by hand with the torp on the launching platform, usually by the chief of engineering for some damn reason. The warheads are stored in plain racks the remainder of the time with no equipment nearby that would be able to extract and safely store anti-matter. In any case, the supposed maximum amount of antimatter they can carry is 1.5 kilos [technical manual] leading to an upper limit of 64 megatons and a realistic limit of 24-32.

In addition, there's the problem that photorp damage isn't consistent with what's actually going on: in particular, in Star Trek VI, there was absolutely no reason for General Chang to be dialling down the payloads of his torps, since the idea was to destroy the Enterprise. Even so, the Enterprise, with her shields effectively useless, was still combat effective after multiple hits. Generally photorps will only kill a ship if the warp core is breached, but there's other events that imply the Enterprise is ridiculously delicate, such as the aforementioned episode where one of her nacelles was clipped by a slow-moving ship and she exploded as a result, or the Galaxy-class hit by a slow-moving Jem'Hadar fighter that blew up in DS9.

I'd like to bring up some issues, already partially addressed on MSN, with Godulars reaction to my warp torpedoes. His simple handwaving away of a weapon that, by all rights, should have at least damaged the one kython caught in its radius, seems patently unacceptable. I'm too tired to be extremely coherent, but y'all know what I'm going on about.

Honestly dude, I told you it ain't handwaving. It was a simple defensive mechanism to prevent unauthorized dimensional shunting from third-parties. That it was originally to be applied in the context of Temporal Erasure doesn't change the fact that it would/should work against other forms of dimensional booting.

Geez... and I had TWO ships get affected, and one did take some damage due to the fact that even the countermeasure is somewhat volatile.

But of course it might also help to avoid firing weapons that perform such actions at me, as it seems that really you were just looking to start an argument about how 'dimensional tech is wanky' even though the effect you created was from exactly that branch. And it would also be nice to note that I do not use such things myself, as I never thought Temporal Erasure or Dimensional Shunting in any manner was the most... 'sporting' of methods. It really seems like you were trying to throw handwavy shite at me in order to provoke something.

I WAS just in that thread as an exploratory crew. It WAS just supposed to be a guy's intro thread where Prates meets new races and civilizations and whatnot. It didn't NEED shit blowing up or livening-up or whatever it was you threw into the whole thing... cuz ya kinda did hijack that thread. And God forbid I should want to see a quick-ish end to it, hrm?

P.S. Dude... why'd ya feel the need to come here? We weren't done talking on MSN, though your sudden silence led me to believe that I had either caused your brain to explode or you had wandered off for the night. I apologize if my science babble seemed incomprehensible but it IS Legit. If you like I could get you in touch with folks who know more than I...

Honestly dude, I told you it ain't handwaving. It was a simple defensive mechanism to prevent unauthorized dimensional shunting from third-parties. That it was originally to be applied in the context of Temporal Erasure doesn't change the fact that it would/should work against other forms of dimensional booting.

Geez... and I had TWO ships get affected, and one did take some damage due to the fact that even the countermeasure is somewhat volatile.

But of course it might also help to avoid firing weapons that perform such actions at me, as it seems that really you were just looking to start an argument about how 'dimensional tech is wanky' even though the effect you created was from exactly that branch. And it would also be nice to note that I do not use such things myself, as I never thought Temporal Erasure or Dimensional Shunting in any manner was the most... 'sporting' of methods. It really seems like you were trying to throw handwavy shite at me in order to provoke something.

I WAS just in that thread as an exploratory crew. It WAS just supposed to be a guy's intro thread where Prates meets new races and civilizations and whatnot. It didn't NEED shit blowing up or livening-up or whatever it was you threw into the whole thing... cuz ya kinda did hijack that thread. And God forbid I should want to see a quick-ish end to it, hrm?

P.S. Dude... why'd ya feel the need to come here? We weren't done talking on MSN, though your sudden silence led me to believe that I had either caused your brain to explode or you had wandered off for the night. I apologize if my science babble seemed incomprehensible but it IS Legit. If you like I could get you in touch with folks who know more than I...

I was in touch with said folks. I left for personal reasons that have no pertinence to this discussion, and to allow them to say their piece as they requested, I have posted it here. They pretty well agree its a crock.

Again with the Temporal=Dimensional. Temporal=/=Dimensional. Temporal=Temporal.

I actually expected you to try the same bull you used on Abh, and to simply point out that solid objects still bitchslap you in other dimensions. Your use of different wank is intriguing, but not unexpected.

I simply interjected myself, and reason for myself to be there. You can't very well complain if it attracts others. That gets him more people to interact with when stuff is resolved, so in a way, maybe it did need livening up. But that's rather secondary. And you're very eager to do the SQish thing, and bring up facts that have little to do with the material being questioned.

Yes, Temporal IS dimensional. Its as I told you, Time is the fourth dimension. Fourth of many. Anything affecting that would count as a dimensional effect. This is discussed in honest-to-goodness physical textbooks. Just because its beyond your grade level doesn't mean I'm lying when I talk about it.

And I find it amusing myself that you decide to accuse me of wankery when you use a weapon from the exact same archetype you so rail against. God forbid I should have a mechanism designed to render an insta-smish aspect of a tech I, like many, disagree with. God forbid I should have an RP-based defense for something that I feel is untenable in an RP. I don't hippity hop into different dimensions in combat. I don't have weapons that can ignore your shields because they're out of phase or some shite... well the Tachyon weapons were but I had those suckers balanced and I don't use 'em much anymore anyway.

You did that on purpose, didn't you? Just to provoke some form of reaction so you could roam around the rooftops hollering at the injustice of it all when you discovered I had a countermeasure? The device has been a longstanding aspect of Godulan technology that honestly NEVER saw use, if only for lack of necessity, until you decided to poke at it. Whoop! Silly me! I should just let my ship get insta-vaped because it'd make you feel big.

Dude, it ain't either of our threads. It ain't really necessary for you to be all protective of the nature of your 'pirates' if its generally expected that the suckers ain't gonna live to see the next day... or hour. Prates was telling me earlier that he was hoping somebody wouldn't try to come in and conquer him in his own intro thread. And in you come, with a few pirates that you seem disturbingly reluctant to part with and you start causing Sephrioth to haul in his own battlefleets and a whole bunch of other crap and dammit Prates didn't even have very many warships in the system to begin with. Your two wounded battleships practically outgun his entire system defense force! Shoo, he was telling me he'd kinda hoped it'd be uneventful!