NationStates Jolt Archive

Sounds very cool :D

In future tech it is fairly easy to destroy a planet. There are a lot of ways to do this. Giant missiles that come out of hyperspace, asteroid bombardment-- sharp stones (asteroids with high powered fusion engines attached), heavy mass drivers, antimatter weapons, saturation bombardment with multicyclic fusion missiles, solar gates-- drop a wormhole into a sun, then open a gate near a planet, neither gate has to last very long, solar flare weapons, grey goo nanite disassemblers. On the higher end, singularity weapons, rogue moons-- planetoids filled with explosive then set on course against a world, sun busters, unstable wormholes, black holes, etc. Unfortunately there is no reaction from players-- planet killing weapons should get backlash, in fact there should be treaties that limit this kind of thing just like there are anti-wmd treaties, give the right of players to vaporize other players who do this.

Unfortunately there is no reaction from players-- planet killing weapons should get backlash, in fact there should be treaties that limit this kind of thing just like there are anti-wmd treaties, give the right of players to vaporize other players who do this.

I've mentioned this before at least once. I mean if someone launches even a single ICBM it would have a huge impact on socio/political for everyone within the galaxy. I would imagine that within the NS FT community it (meaning Planet killing weapons) has become so common place that nobody, it would seem, gives it a second thought. It is for this (among others) that I place no real emphysis on such weapons.

When one "glasses" a planet, wouldn't it take exactly 24 hours (using Earth as an example, other planets have longer or shorter days) to completly destroy it? Due to rotation? This dosen't have anything to do with what I'm RPing, just a random question.

Not really. Only if your bombardment platform is completely immobile, and the weapon's effect doesn't spread. Since your average shockwave is going to be propagating at a rather high speed, glassing a world should go rather quickly.

So then you'd only have to destory, say, half a world, and the shockwaves and fallout will take care of the rest?

Depends. Unless you plop a multi-megaton nuke down every couple of kilometers, you're still going to get plenty of survivors if they've taken cover in appropriate shelter, and people in purpose built nuclear bunkers will be just fine. Of course, the rads (assuming you're not using clean bombs, but for sterilizing a world, who would?) would kill anyone who went up to the surface, but hey, life in a vault ain't that bad, right?

Also remember, shockwaves do die out over distance, which is why the nuke that took out Hiroshima didn't annihilate the planet and prevent this conversation. A 1 megaton nuke, for example, will only threaten about thirty miles (off the top of my head, number may vary).

Of course, you also have to remember that any given satellite (which an orbiting warship happens to be) has line of sight to half the planet at any given time, and can launch weapons at any part it can see (probably more, assuming guided weapons). And since your average LEO satellite moves around the Earth in about 90 minutes, glassing a world can go pretty damn quick (45 minutes, assuming the ship DOESN'T go full burn and speed up it's orbital period).

I see. Thank you.

Well if all you want to do is obliterate an 'offending' civilization, 'glassing' would do that. Pretty much would ruin the planet's surface and atmosphere in so doing, but the planet itself wouldn't be readily too harmed of it's own part. Invading a planet after just means the invasion/occupying forces better be ready to deal with the after effects.

If you're in the business of just 'really' destroying a planet, probably the most energy effective way is to hogtie some planetoids of appropriate size, and fling them at the 'offending' planet in some manner. (In whatever fashion such is done.)

Probably only need a couple to 'really' obliterate things. An evolutionary killer planetoid 'would' get the job done. Large enough numbers would more likely liquefy the planet's surface for eons to come, or just crack a planet down past the surface crust.

This is all barring if you don't bother with some 'superlaser' method of doing the same act. Course seeing nature in full fury, flaming down from the sky, has it's own terrifying art to it all. =^^=

Or you can use the old fashioned suicide ship method, pack several cargo ships with depleted uranium, or steel rebar, or just something very heavy then get them going up to warp 5 directly into a planet. Preprogrammed course.

I personally like the simple method of bombing a certain spot on the systems sun. Now, that will do nothing at all to the sun other than cause disruptions in the magnetic field of the star and result in the eruption of monsterous solar flares. If you calculate it right, you can plant enough in a row to cause several flares to irradiate the planet. As the sun rotates, it drags the hole you created to bear down on the hapless targets and gives them a nice case of ion radiation.

Why is this such a problem?

Well, Solar flares commonly cause electronics to degrade and fail. Even normal ones makes NASA shut down our satelites to keep them from being destroyed and it even affects airplanes.

Since you are now disrupting electronics, there goes a number of defensive battlements set up in orbit and then the previously mentioned rocks can be safely flung from outside the flare affected area to hit the planet. Nothing to shoot them or divert them functioning between your launcher and the surface.

Ehhhhhh, the only problem with that, is that, any self respecting FT type nation would already have some half decent defenses against solar flare radiation normally. (If they don't they deserve to be pummeled afterwards.)

The safest method to pull this off, would be to have some form of robotic preguided munitions, to keep an actual parent vessel away from the initial bombardment from the same flare wave that is probably racing out in all directions, from the points of impact.

This method I'd use if you wanted to simply reduce enemy technological levels, rather than obliterate the planet's surface afterwards. (Unless you're the S&M FT type and 'want' to just paste the poor civilization of targeting, in more than one format.

The space rock version doesn't give the option of having anything left behind to thumb a nose at. The Flare version does, at least for those that are shielded enough on a planet's surface. (The ones in orbit that aren't shielded already, are nice and crispy after the wave hits.)

Nice conversation were having, no? (Wonder if there's a way to engineer a Magnetar to hit a planet with a gamma-ray pulse... =--=?? )

Well, that was the beauty of the plan, their sheilds would not be able to take on both the massive solar flares (about ten times normal flares meaning direct hits instead of just getting the fringes of a normal one) and the incomming "dinosaur-killer" (forgive me Skiss) sized projectiles timed so they all hit at about the same time. The weakened defenses would crumble and then more rocks and flares would make life real damn diffacult there.

If your launching vessel is situated far enough away and you are using RKV ammunition then you don't have to worry about getting flared yourself.

Balrogga's method is too complex. Just ram a Bussard ramjet into the sun and you'll achieve sufficient disruption for your needs.

Though such a thing is way excessive. There's no need to destroy an entire star system and all resources therein when simply dropping rocks on the enemy planet will suffice in 99% of cases. Advantages are as follows...

-Asteroids are cheap. You can find them anywhere except in REALLY highly developed systems that have used up all their space-borne resources.

-They're effective. One asteroid of sufficient size will cause major climactic disruptions. More than one will eventually make the planet unliveable. Higher velocities, of course, will cause more damage.

-They're tough. Regardless of what kind of weapons you use, it's going to take a bit of time to chew through a kilometers-wide chunk of nickel-iron, the moreso if whoever's tossing the thing mounts defensive systems and so forth on it.

People like to rant a lot about super shields and so forth, but there's still quite a bit to be said for simple mass to stop enemy attacks.

I stand corrected.

in any real future cars and guns will be curiosities of a forgotten antiquity.

space might be fun, as exploring is one of the major roots of gratification. wars however, well for some of us, have gotten just plain tedius.

creativity being the other root of gratification, i don't see why there isn't more creative immagination in comming up with things that arn't just more forms of weaponry.

and THAT doesn't, that i can see, have to be limited to a far enough future for space battles, but could certainly take place in alternative and even more peaceful and environmentally harmonious presents.

i really think the big reason there's such a derth of creativity and immagination is all this excessive focus on military conflict.

=^^=
.../\...

Actually, war has always been the driving force behind technological development... usually, medical inventions and other important discoveries are first discovered and utilized on the battlefield, or, in direct relation to a war situation or the risk of one... historically anyway, at least concerning human history... :p

in any real future cars and guns will be curiosities of a forgotten antiquity.

space might be fun, as exploring is one of the major roots of gratification. wars however, well for some of us, have gotten just plain tedius.

creativity being the other root of gratification, i don't see why there isn't more creative immagination in comming up with things that arn't just more forms of weaponry.

and THAT doesn't, that i can see, have to be limited to a far enough future for space battles, but could certainly take place in alternative and even more peaceful and environmentally harmonious presents.

i really think the big reason there's such a derth of creativity and immagination is all this excessive focus on military conflict.

=^^=
.../\...

Unfortunately, thinking the future will be peaceful is rather naive. As long as there's something worth fighting over, people will fight over it.

Unfortunately, thinking the future will be peaceful is rather naive. As long as there's something worth fighting over, people will fight over it.

From what I've seen there's nothing worth fighting for in FT. Every country appears to be ridiculously self-sufficient, and seeing as space is infinite there's certainly no territory or resources to fight over.

As long as there are extreme ideologies of any type people will fight each other. Also when you have several billion people a little real estate is nice. Most planets don't support life. If there is life then it might house another FT nation, or someone else will want it as well and you might have to fight for it.

When a planet is not invested that can support life, you better take it quick or someone else will and put up defenses so you can't have it.

True true...

From what I've seen there's nothing worth fighting for in FT. Every country appears to be ridiculously self-sufficient, and seeing as space is infinite there's certainly no territory or resources to fight over.

[ooc: Trick is though the human mindset. Throughout history humanity likes to classify the world around them into 'us' and 'them' (Especially the US, but I digress.) which has been one of the biggest problems we have had with getting along with ourselves!

And in the end, all humans think the same, we all have the same basic needs, we all have the same basic desires (Excluding the Insane, but we are worried bout them too) and we all are human. While we may have a few cosmetic differences you stab one of us we bleed, hurt one of us sufficiently we cry, we socialise, we all interact in similar methods excluding the differences according to culture. And despite all this, we managed to commit horrible atrocities based on race or ideology. People have purged entire groups due to skin colour, we still worry about those who have different skin colour now (Perhaps not personally, but as a whole we are not at social equality yet). Hell, we have problems with the two sexes in many cultures.

Now, remove all the common ground. Change the mentality so totally it could be more alien then that of a simple animal here, change the body so much we would have to disect them while still alive to see how they work. Something so beyond our understanding because even Octopii have the common factor of being created from the same root. An alien has none of this, and in the end it is likely the only things we will have in common is A) we fear eachother and B) We both want our species around us rather then them.

War is not going away, even when there is no reason, even when its nothing more then people getting killed over fear, its gonna be there. Its human nature in itself.]

[ooc: Trick is though the human mindset. Throughout history humanity likes to classify the world around them into 'us' and 'them' (Especially the US, but I digress.) which has been one of the biggest problems we have had with getting along with ourselves!

And in the end, all humans think the same, we all have the same basic needs, we all have the same basic desires (Excluding the Insane, but we are worried bout them too) and we all are human. While we may have a few cosmetic differences you stab one of us we bleed, hurt one of us sufficiently we cry, we socialise, we all interact in similar methods excluding the differences according to culture. And despite all this, we managed to commit horrible atrocities based on race or ideology. People have purged entire groups due to skin colour, we still worry about those who have different skin colour now (Perhaps not personally, but as a whole we are not at social equality yet). Hell, we have problems with the two sexes in many cultures.

Now, remove all the common ground. Change the mentality so totally it could be more alien then that of a simple animal here, change the body so much we would have to disect them while still alive to see how they work. Something so beyond our understanding because even Octopii have the common factor of being created from the same root. An alien has none of this, and in the end it is likely the only things we will have in common is A) we fear eachother and B) We both want our species around us rather then them.

War is not going away, even when there is no reason, even when its nothing more then people getting killed over fear, its gonna be there. Its human nature in itself.]

Well, being human, I'll have to stab you for using that ridiculously small text...

As long as there are extreme ideologies of any type people will fight each other. Also when you have several billion people a little real estate is nice. Most planets don't support life. If there is life then it might house another FT nation, or someone else will want it as well and you might have to fight for it.

When a planet is not invested that can support life, you better take it quick or someone else will and put up defenses so you can't have it.

Which, incidentally, makes the earlier discussion regarding the destruction of planets even more ludicrous.

Not to say that you are right, of course, as judging by the number of planets some FTers claim to have, and judging by the sheer size of the universe as a whole, you're probably not.

War is not going away, even when there is no reason, even when its nothing more then people getting killed over fear, its gonna be there. Its human nature in itself.

And yet, all modern signs point to large, global wars becoming a thing of the past. As globalisation increases dramatically, linking all of the economies together, and tolerance sweeps through the governments of the larger powers, the chances for war are incredibly low. Look at America and China - all of the kids on all of the internet forums seem to love the idea of them going to war, when in reality, given the interdependence of their economies, this is incredibly unlikely.

Why would all of this suddenly change when humanity finds the entire universe, and its countless planets and resources, opened up to them?

Let's answer this question with a real answer this time - it's because Star Wars does it, and for some reason, most people on this website think of war as something fun and cool (which tends to say a lot about their experiences of it, more often than not).

To be entirely fair - war being considered 'Fun' and 'Cool' isn't exactly limited to SciFi, now is it? It's the mindset people - males, anyway - tend to be in in their teens and maybe a bit beyond, and it's only natural for this mindset to have an imprint on what they, lets say, write on assorted discussion fora (re: War between China & the US) or in NS. How Star wars is supposed to be responsible for this is a bit beyond me.

Likewise, how is self-sufficiency of interstellar civilisations 'Ridiculous'? Short of luxury goods assorted nations may specialise in (Similar to, lets take a few RL examples... Persian Carpets or Swiss Watches), I cannot see a single need such a civilisation couldn't satisfy internally. In fact, I don't get why the hell there's freakin' ore transports - actually, make that any raw materials - between systems in NS. It must be cheaper to get those from one's local system (Indeed, planet), rather than transporting them over a few dozen lightyears.

You're right in one regard, of course - given self-sufficiency (Something that's basically guaranteed to be the case) and enough territory (Something that's basically guaranteed the case with either a) actual NS populations or b) a feasible population growth, which is to say, stagnation or slight decline for technologically and economically developed civilisations), there's simply no reason to go to war (Regardless of the technological background). Even the major ideological and cultural differences often made out to cause conflicts are merely the tip of an iceberg founded by disparities in resource distribution - simply put, why would one want to sacrifice one's life when one can spent a pleasant evening sitting in a comfy armchair while listening to one's favourite music and patting one's only slightly rounded belly?

There is no reason.

One can make up for this, of course. I.e. blatantly ignoring the above (Star Trek, Star Wars, Tom Clancy), making up deities that fuel otherwise unnecessary conflicts (Wankhammer, Star Wars after a fashion, assorted televangelists), making the primary anta/ protagonists of a given war childlike 'I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!' - 'NO YOU ARE NOT!' *Prota- and antagonist start throwing legos at each other* entities (Babylon 5), the likes. And given that interstellar civilisations are by definition ignoring one thing or another (I.e. physics), I think one can forgive them for also ignoring the sociological implications of the wondrous technologies they're based on.

After all, the universe one wishes to play in has to be at least somewhat interesting. Granted, the weekly 'Lol, I exterminate NPC species to show off how omg evil I am' case is a bit much (If nothing else, it's been done to death), and somewhat more, well... thought-out scenarios would be nice, but hey.

Why would all of this suddenly change when humanity finds the entire universe, and its countless planets and resources, opened up to them?

The same thing that happened when the situation occurred on Earth I would think. I see where you’re coming from about the global situation being much more stable then say 60 years ago, but it’s not unheard of militarily for violent changes in the international landscape to ram up the chances of a war. Everyone was betting their life saving on the next major conflict being a very unlikely NATO vs Warsaw Pact style engagement in 1981, a year later the UK were in the Falklands and a year after that the US was in Grenada. Expeditionary warfare which died out pre-world war one (with the exception of Suez) came out of nowhere when a UK dependency was threatened.

Perhaps when we start colonising space the same need for a shift of policy will be the return of large scale armed conflict. Although I agree a Chinese invasion force landing in Seattle is unlikely in the next 10 years, who knows what will happen in the future. Personally I see the return of Empires when (if) we get into space (although much more overtly corporate sponsored) and with that comes the mailed glove that is required in such an undertaking.

I personally see no other way of controlling vast, rapidly expanding territories.

On the contrary, it will not be physical trade goods that matter, but ideas and technology. And the people who have the best idea (most convincing religion or economic system, or technology may have the upper hand. The problem is claiming that you have the best technical ideas, and the best ideas in general leads to conflict. This does not have to be blow up the universe conflict, but easily a kind of interstellar espionage and cold war to see who is the best. Many civilizations simply assume they are the best and that is enough reason to take what they want. The Romans were a very good example of this.

Getting the physical technology will not matter so much, but the methods of production will matter. Trade goods would probably be based on the same lines, unique goods -- very hard to reproduce, or rare elements, unique biologicals as well.

We live in fairly civilized times, but exploration is not that civil and often does not use civilized people that much, it brings out the remnants of the worst aspects of ones civilization and exports them a lot of the time.

Unfortunately, thinking the future will be peaceful is rather naive. As long as there's something worth fighting over, people will fight over it.
Actually, I've found that even if there's NOT something worth fighting for, people will fight over it anyway. Why? Because some people love war and death, some actually believe in it, ect. As long as people are here war will be too.

From what I've seen there's nothing worth fighting for in FT. Every country appears to be ridiculously self-sufficient, and seeing as space is infinite there's certainly no territory or resources to fight over.

Not-war is boring for those of us who like explosions, so we imaginarily kill each other. Next complaint, please.

Not-war is boring for those of us who like explosions, so we imaginarily kill each other. Next complaint, please.

There's too much Dark Matter getting in the way of us finding each other more easily, to blow each other away. Can't we stop Dark Matter growth for the good of wars everywhere? =oo=

(Hey, I complained. I was next. It was dumb. So there. Nyah.)

Hey I got more of a question then a complaint.. I want to start future tech but I don't know about anything FT.. I can't find any ft storefronts or rps... If someone could point out an rp or 2 and acouple of storefronts that would be AWESOME! Thankies!

I don't know of any FT storefronts, but

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537256
A thread for a small galaxy
(There's several mini-threads in this thread for the galaxy)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=539348
A Academy thread I've created for intrested FT

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=524142
A smugglers/pirates/mercs thread, for those on the wrong side of the law

While not storefronts, a few links in my sig show (in my opinion, at least) good examples of how to build yourself a navy.

Ignore the tech thread. It's obsolete and silly. Instead, look at the individual vessels I have linked.



As for warfare in itself, all it takes is one Borg- or Flood-like race to set everyone ablaze. The moment the idea of safety is threatened, humans are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to recreate it. For instance, my nation came out of a very destructive war with one such entity (intimidatingly called "The Collective") by ravenously seeking out and reverse-engineering any technology they could find. That mindset continues with them today, which is why they're sending an entire carrier battlegroup after a handful of Jedi and two fighters.

Political/Social/Economic differences can be a factor as well. As humans have become the "dominant" species on the planet, we find ourselves without the terrifying predators that ruled our ancestors' evolution. Let's face it, the human is a paranoid creature by nature. Paranoia tends to create threats where there are none. A simple difference, such as one group believing in The Force, and another group believing in Qwarr'jet, can lead to conflict. The idea that "they" will try to take over "us" by spreading "their" methods and beliefs is a terrifying thing to the basic human instinct.

You are assuming that habitable planets are easy to come by, which if anything, is not the case in real life. A habitable planet may be perfectly rare enough where there would be a war over it.

There is also wars that can be fought over religious and idealogical proposes, or over some plot device, like a special ore or artifact.

War is not going away. Somebody will always find a reason for it.

And as mentioned above, some Flood-like parasitic race could cause a huge war.

There is also the fact that while space may be infinite, that doesn't mean people can easily get to every part of it.

It's much more practical, economical, and logical to take over the planet next to mine than to travel a trillion light years away and take one there. Not to mention that not everyone has the technology to travel and take over planets far away. Sure, most people have technology equivalent to "hyperspace," making traversing a galaxy not as difficult, but I'd bet a lot fewer have the technology/means/ability to traverse the universe.

You mean something like a warp bubble in hyperspace, that allows you to go warp speeds in a superconnected overspace. No, most players don't have this kind of thing. There are very few transgalactic RPs, the Scandinvans do this by having the Eternals open a new galaxy using wormholes, or someone usually divides up a galaxy and you try to claim your stake.

Motivations to go to war might change. A world with the ability to create coffee out of nothing ("Earl Grey, hot"), isn't likely to fight a war over material things. But any world will fight if its survival is threatened.

Even for peaceful races like us Sagitians (or the Vulcans in ST), peace is just a veneer over a savage inner nature. We didn't get advanced enough to travel through space without being strong enough and mean enough to eliminate anything that got in our way.

Motivations to go to war might change. A world with the ability to create coffee out of nothing ("Earl Grey, hot"), isn't likely to fight a war over material things. But any world will fight if its survival is threatened.

pssst... I believe Earl Grey is tea, not coffee.

pssst... I believe Earl Grey is tea, not coffee.

No, it's coffee and I'll fight you over it! :D

LOL!
It is tea, actually.
DMG, if you read this and haven't done so already, please post in the Sorting Clock thread.

The quality and quantity of interstellar or even interplanetary trade depends on the comparative advantages the traders in question posess, and the transaction costs of moving goods between them.

There are two components to transaction costs in interstellar trade, which also exist in any other sort of trade taking place beyond a person's immediate community. These are costs of shipping and costs of doing business. Shipping costs rise with increased unpredictability of travel between places, with decreased cargo capacity of transports, and with high prices on acquiring those transports. Cost of doing business range from tarrifs and customs tolls to bureaucratic red tape.

Where transaction costs exceed potential profits for a given good, no trade in that good will take place. The potential for profits depends on the relative difference in prices between any two locations. This is due to comparative advantage, since some places are relatively good at producing some goods, but are relatively bad at producing other goods.

Thus, an FT society where interstellar travel is extremely unpredictable, with an insurance system either impossible or unprofitable, little to no trade between systems will exist in any systematic fashion. An FT society which can convert lead into food with perfect efficiency will have no need for trade. Where interstellar travel is fairly reliable, with a system of insurance protecting shipping companies in the event of piracy, collision, or bad luck, interstellar trade is both possible and likely to exist. A small outpost colony on a hostile world is unlikely to be able to produce everything it requires to exist, and thus may have to trade for anything from food to replacement parts to slaves. A world that has been settled for millenia may no longer have deposits of fossil fuels for its petrochemical industry or metals for construction, and so will have to buy those from other worlds, where the local relative price of metals may be absurdly low due to either low demand or high abundance. A planet such as Trantor (Foundation Series) or Coruscant (Star Wars) will have to at the very least import vast quantities of food every day.

Following real-world patterns, trade in information is likely to be a very big business in an FT setting, provided the infrastructure for it exists.

Off-topic but still in the spirit of the thread. I recently began equipping my warships with rail-launched self-guided munitions, essentially accelerating a fusion missile to mass driver speeds. I posted this query on the NS Draftroom, but haven't yet gotten a response. I've decided that the upper region in terms of size, the 1200mm accelerators, will fire missiles with a 30 gigaton payload. However, I'm building these things as small as 250mm (the rest will be standard mass drivers, for point defense), and need to calculate warhead strength for those. If I can get an upper and lower limit, I can calculate the rest.

Also, what is an acceptable muzzle velocity for most FT mass drivers. The most sophisticated ones today can reach 30 km/s, but my nation has access to phased disassembly array technology (fusion torches break down matter into its component atoms, which are the reassembled by nanobots into other materials) and can make alloys and components of much greater quality.

So, as these "strategic bombardment arrays" will be my primary weapon system aside from my ion particle accelerators, what should I make their muzzle velocity?

You arn't going to be able to fit 30 GT worth of fissionables into anything that will fit into a 1200mm barrel.

I figured that could be a problem (hoped I could get away with it though >.>)

What would be a more acceptable figure?

I figured that could be a problem (hoped I could get away with it though >.>)

What would be a more acceptable figure?

What type of device are we talking here and what element are you using for the physics package?

Going by List of US Nuclear Weapons (http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Allbombs.html), the largest real-life nuclear warhead you'll be able to fit into a tube just over a meter in length should have a yield of a few megatons at best. Assuming some increases in warhead efficiency, a more reasonable yield would probably still be below a hundred megatons.

Acceptable velocities for railguns in FT range from a bit above velocities achieved in real life to relativistic velocities, depending on how hard or how soft the thread in question is. Best bet is to figure out the required yield and then calculate the necessary mass and velocity.

Nuclear warheads are going to be pointless for space combat, as the velocities are going to guarantee serious damage to your target regardless of the presence of a warhead in a projectile or guided missile. You could quite literally throw a box of cereal in front of an opposing warship's vector and cause serious damage to its hull integrity, and with most of the benefits of nuclear weapons (overpressure, radiological fallout) rendered nil in a vacuum, there's little reason for their use in weapons.

The velocity penetrates the armor, the warhead then detonates and guts the ship.

Far more effective than your run of the mill turbolaser in my opinion.

That depends on whether you're hard FT or going for more of a space opera thing, Velkya.

You arn't going to be able to fit 30 GT worth of fissionables into anything that will fit into a 1200mm barrel.

Maybe an anti-matter containment device?

I try to strike a balance between "soft" sci-fi (space opera, Star Wars-style) and "hard" sci-fi (what is conceivable in the forseeable future). In this way, I can explain how most everything works and keep from being called a techwanker (which happened a bunch during my last FT foray), but still keep it fun for myself.

In terms of space opera-style nations, my technology is very ancient, but the way it is utilized gives my forces an edge. That being said, everything is also "plot-device strength", meaning it's as strong or as weak as the storyline needs it to be. I just like having numbers to throw out so that people aren't just like "i haz turbolazors they is stronger u die".

Maybe an anti-matter containment device?

If you're using antimatter, then it's not a nuclear weapon.

I will further note that if you're using some kind of reaction drive, it is likely that the majority of your missile's volume will be taken up by engine and fuel.

A matter/antimatter warhead looks to be a more viable option for what I'm thinking, with the velocity of the missile penetrating the armor and the warhead combining the two components (instead of just a straight antimatter container, which would do jack against shields). The question is - how would my nation harness antimatter for use in weapons? I could tweak my quantum wormhole effect technology to transmit antimatter as well as matter for production purposes (it's transmitted in atomic form, no ST-style transporters here), but creating it in the first place will be a problem.

Edit: I know that minute quantities can be created with high-energy atom smashers, but the problem is creating it "in the field". I try to make supply line sabotage as difficult as possible by eliminating the supply line completely, and making each task force (as long as it has a functioning carrier) completely independent as long as they can find an asteroid belt or mineral-rich planet.

Unfortunately, you would likely need to either create it from scratch somehow or else find a natural source.

I could try reconfiguring one or two mobile refineries into large-scale atom smashers...but with "future" technology, could I make it feasible?

Since I am the OP of this Thread it is legal to have my own activities restart this and to get it going again, especially the topic of this Thread. It is meant to be a place of arguments and OOC talking instead of polluting other Threads with off topic discussions.

I was speaking with another acquaintance of mine who is an older player and we were talking about how all the years we have spent building up our nations with tons of background material does not count for anything today. The latest batches of players are running around with oversized nations using oversized ships to move oversized armies.

I once read somewhere a mod saying it was not fair to a new player to limit them because we found the site before them. I don’t remember where it was and it might even be earlier in this very Thread. I say this is unfair because that attitude would punish the established players and turn years of dedication to NS completely valueless.

Before I go further, I would like to point out as a player I am not an elitist. I believe not sticking to the old standards is making a game structure that turns the time veteran players spent on NS and their nations into a slap in the face. This disrespect is most likely part of the reason some of them might have left. They are gone so there is no way to verify this but I suspect it is true.

In MT, you used to have to wait a month or two to simulate the RL time it took to develop the technological base to develop and manufacture nuclear weapons. Now you can start with them on day one and irradiate the Earth if you use the reasoning mentioned above. The younger players do not have nukes and the older ones do. If they had to wait just like we did it was fair for everyone.

In FT, day old players claim Death Stars and other world killers. They have fleets of thousands of ships. They have millions of troops. They control whole galaxies and even entire parallel universes with empires containing hundreds of billions of civilians.

They have a 6 million NS population.

As far as fair goes, how is it fair to someone that has put in four years of their life into being a loyal member of this board and community yet slaps them in the face telling them it doesn’t mean anything at all?

What are your opinions?

The problem with older players is when they use these millions of troops/ships and so forth to go and screw up newbie's RPs, as you yourself have done on several occasions.

I have stopped using fleets long ago. I stick with Battlegroups of 19 including the command carrier as my basis and have been for some time.

Statement!


Not all new peoples, aim to have all that i sure as hell dont, i at max own only 12-14 planets WHICH I INHABIT but control over 30-40 systems (WHICH I PATROL / MINE) and have infulence over a small shpere of space.

and day old players claim that, for a single reason, wno one told them they coudlnt have that if they are a day old.

But what your preposing is not freeform roleplay. It doesn't belong in a freeform roleplaying site because it is essencially the leveling up system turned into time. But the trick is no one can level up fast enough to get past the big nations who are already established.

Nationstates is about freeform roleplay. In essence, what ever works between two players is what they roleplay with. If they agree to playing uber-empires of doom which can throw ships around willy-nilly then they can be permitted to doing that. If someone wants to impose the same restrictions on themselves you consider they must then they can do that to. But who would want to when the restrictions are so bloody bad for the newbies?

For an older player, if someone slaps you in the face with being equal technology to you then you just feel slightly disrespected cause some newbie didn't bow to your glory because you found the site a few years before him and stayed with it. But for the newbie following your rules, they establish themselves, then they have to spend RL Months or years reserching technology that they can never beat you in because you had such a headstart its not possible for them to catch up.

And like I said, its not freeform, its just a different form of leveling up.

To be honest, it depends on the newbie. Many are sensible enough to not make outlandish Hataria-esque claims, like Kewen, Univaria, and Myenya. Not every newb tries to be the Galactic Empire, and not every newb makes the mistake of provoking a much larger nation in its first few days. Even better, I haven't really seen any "Ima gonna pwn teh galazy" intro threads recently, so I think the fish are learning. ;)

Mind you, the "shoot first, ask questions later" attitude seems a lot more prevalent in FT intro threads than MT, which probably leads to a lot more curbstomps than would otherwise occur. Responding to every first contact with a hail of firepower isn't really a good way to make friends.

The problem with older players is when they use these millions of troops/ships and so forth to go and screw up newbie's RPs, as you yourself have done on several occasions.
The splinters you're getting in your tongue must be unbearable. You really should consider having the stick in your ass surgically removed. :rolleyes:


For an older player, if someone slaps you in the face with being equal technology to you then you just feel slightly disrespected cause some newbie didn't bow to your glory because you found the site a few years before him and stayed with it. But for the newbie following your rules, they establish themselves, then they have to spend RL Months or years reserching technology that they can never beat you in because you had such a headstart its not possible for them to catch up.
Personally, I don't have a problem with newbies having equivalent technology to me. It's when they start claiming massive territories that I start getting irked. Population is the only hard stat in the game, and it's the standard measure for nation power in ANY tech level. Since anyone can claim any technological power they like, everyone is essentially equal in that realm. Thus, barring superior tactical acumen, the bigger nation should have the advantage hands down.

Mind you, I don't only get annoyed at small people claiming massive fleets o' doom and galaxy-spanning empires. Even with the biggest nations, it's generally grounds for an ignore in my eyes.

Big dog eats small dog. There is no mercy as your planet is slagged out of existence, and phallic symbols attack. Spears of nuclear or antimatter fire rain from the skies and a desperate plot device(TM) of a small group of survivors escaping which would be virtually impossible happens because nobody wants to delete his NS a few days after starting it because of the "I AM STRONGER BOW TO ME" bullying mentality. I believe many decided to "start big" as they saw how some of the FT Intros, even among those which were relatively well written and intended to be peaceful, ended.

The other defense is to make Closed threads and to claim that in your own parallel universe, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and most scientists who opposed fringe theories were completely right, and that the laws of physics in it are a natural and permanent FTLi, anti-gravitic, anti-handwavium and anti-unobtainium field.

I'm going to speak my mind on this.

I once read somewhere a mod saying it was not fair to a new player to limit them because we found the site before them. I don’t remember where it was and it might even be earlier in this very Thread. I say this is unfair because that attitude would punish the established players and turn years of dedication to NS completely valueless.

I think I know what you mean, buried in one of those big sticky link threads. I have to agree with her. Not all of the old members have rped since '03 - I knew someone who had made two nations in '03, forgot about them, and resurrected one of them - and I'm sure many people know similar people. Indeed, many more recent members have far more developed nations/factions/whatever (confed and all his many different forms come to mind).

On the second point, it's a lose-lose situation - it's unfair to either party, for one is doomed to inferiority to the other party, who, like you have said, claim that their longer dedication to this site entitles them to this - but again, population is not based upon dedication to NSRP, it is based on when you found this website, and takes no notice of rp quality and quantity, and forces everyone into being the generic Monarchy/Democracy/Dicatorship which operates exactly the same politically regardless of system and have the same mega-economies with silly GDP per Capitas, and armies with the same ridculously pricey equipment and the same social attitude to war that 1914 France had if they crave power (which, despite what some claim, will always at least lurk in the back of the writer's head). It's be better if it was GDP that was hard coded and not population, I think, but still unfair to the newcomer. At least we'd see a bit less of that state. But the best would be the best writters have the best positions, if they want them.

Whoops, I may have gone off on a tangent there. Back to the subject:

Before I go further, I would like to point out as a player I am not an elitist. I believe not sticking to the old standards is making a game structure that turns the time veteran players spent on NS and their nations into a slap in the face. This disrespect is most likely part of the reason some of them might have left. They are gone so there is no way to verify this but I suspect it is true.

You mean all those newcomers who claim galactic empires? You're not forced to RP with them, or even read their posts. But another point, is how limitted new nations are in FT intro, esspecially of the soft variety. A interplanetary state spanning a massive population of 6 million. I'm not advocating a empire of 6 trillion, but not everyone wants to play a rogue fleet, or a independent space station or whatever. Having to operate within such small numbers in a genre associatted with magnificent space battles and sizable empires can and will turn some off the idea, or have them inflate their populations a bit.

In MT, you used to have to wait a month or two to simulate the RL time it took to develop the technological base to develop and manufacture nuclear weapons. Now you can start with them on day one and irradiate the Earth if you use the reasoning mentioned above. The younger players do not have nukes and the older ones do. If they had to wait just like we did it was fair for everyone.

You could do that back in the good old days too. You'd lose a lot of respect, but you could still do it. The same is true today - we are just a bigger board, and bigger board equals more people equals more idiots.

As far as fair goes, how is it fair to someone that has put in four years of their life into being a loyal member of this board and community yet slaps them in the face telling them it doesn’t mean anything at all?

It isn't fair, and neither is it that people can't hope to match such states no matter what they do.

My opinion? I am not in favour of the Age Equals Asskicking theory - I'd rather the Ability equals Asskicking one. Remember, Hataria Mk1 was from '03 and IIRC has rped since then or '04. And despite this, he wasn't the most respected person and still most certainly isn't now.

he other defense is to make Closed threads and to claim that in your own parallel universe, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and most scientists who opposed fringe theories were completely right, and that the laws of physics in it are a natural and permanent FTLi, anti-gravitic, anti-handwavium and anti-unobtainium field.

Still militant about Hard SciFi I see. Though, I agree, Closed Threads are the way to go.

Alright, Balrogga, I geuss I'll jump in on this. I promise I'll be as eloquent as possible; none of that "LOL I haS tURBolazerZ thEY P1zz0wn u" crap. That annoys me as much as any veteran forum-goer here, I'm sure.

First off, I'm pretty sure you'll notice that I'm about as Newbish as one can be (a mindshattering FIVE posts! I've reached the 3rd prime number, I'm so proud! By the by, you should probably wipe off your keyboards, since my sarcasm should be dripping through your monitors unto your PC about now...). However, I have had plenty of experience forum RPing at other locations, and I like the idea of roleplaying an entire Nation/Interstellar Dominion as opposed to the usual "Make one character" RPs. It's a refreshing change of pace, hence why I joined. Plus, I heard of Nationstates through a thread, found the forums and figured, 'What the hey? I'll give this a shot'. So, in summary, yes, I'm new here. However, since I'm new here, and the subject seems to be directly impact people such as myself, I feel I should have at least a chance to explain my side of things as someone who could be called, hopefully, a self-respecting RPer Newb. Perhaps I can shed some light from the other side of the fence.

Now, in responce to your questions Balrogga: I agree with you to a degree. If a newb logs in his first day and claims to be the inheritor to a galaxy spanning empire that puts all others to shame, and claims something to the effect of (paraphrasing here), "All you sorry bastards should be on your knees paralysed in fear at the power of my nation," and then proceeds to God-mod his way through a veteran player's lovingly crafted, well designed and excellently played and balanced fleet strengths* with a cheesy, poorly concepted, unstoppable juggernaut of a force that is filled with ships that can all turn on a dime, and take a Death Star's laser and not even chip the paint, AND be packing enough "super hyper beams" and "mega ultra science-bla-bla-wank missles" for flatten a star system's worth of planets in the blink of an eye, AND have all these ships be captained by omnipotent ship captains who can see your stealth ships, predict your every last tactical move and be cooking a thirty-pound lemon-basted roast with his wanking MIND POWERS... Yes, that's wrong. Yes, that's unfair. Yes, it's an RPing crime without measure, and that guy deserves to raped in an RPing prison shower of my own imagination by large and overly hairy inmates of questionable sexual alignment. Does it still happen? Certainly. Are all newbs like that? Certainly not. Are there some of us newbs who try to moderate themselves in their RPing and try to make respectable FT nations that are reasonable in scale, power and scope, and respect the elder FT nations as more experienced and likely larger and more powerful? I try my best to be one, and I know there's probably others like me out there.

Obviously, the problem here is that some newbs are just that, newbs. They either don't realize or don't care that part of forum-style RPing is moderating yourself and making sure your every action isn't a balls-to-the-wall wankfest. Part of FT's appeal is the ability to do things you normally couldn't do, and it's not bad to endulge in these things sometimes.

Faster-than-Light Travel (FTL): Check
Interstellar Dogfights that would make the Red Baron blush: Check
Extraterrestrial Contact with unique societies: Live long and Check
Walking Tanks/Giant Robots: A giant, iron-clad check
Weapons of almost incomprehensible and nearly preposterous Power: That's a 9mm check

The problem occurs when it is just too much. I personally think (and this is my opinion, which probably shouldn't count for too much) that new FT players should, at most, start off controlling six to seven habitable worlds, and at most two or three of them should be core worlds, aka main population centers that are respectably colonized and well defended (I'm not saying that should be impenetrable, nor invulnerable, but an orbital emplacement or two with some heavy anti-ship weapons and a compliment of interceptors sure sounds reasonable to me, maybe a couple more emplacements or a more advanced defensive grid, like a satelite defense system, or a shield of some sort for their primary world sounds equally reasonable). That gives them a solid base to start from and expand, something to be proud of, without having the crazy galaxy spanning empire that's just appeared out of the blue. If a player who has twelve posts claims to have dominion of thirty thousand worlds and a nearly countless fleet of super-heavy, 100 kilometer-long ships with Death Star lasers, that seems amiss to me.

Speaking of Death Star lasers, there in lies the next potential problem: technology-based godmoding. I think, as far as technology goes, there are some basics that most future tech nations should have, regardless of size, and I think you all will probably agree with me:

FTL or equivelent Travel
Nuclear Technology (weapons and Reactors)
Basic Interstellar weapons

These technologies would be roughly representative of a species or organization who is taking their first tenative steps into the galactic scene. In addition, perhaps a few unique technologies would help both flesh out the nation's background, and add some potential kick so they aren't at massive disadvantage against other nations. For example, my Nation, the Commonwealth of the Second Alliance, utilizes Chernokov energy for many things, including but not limited to shielding, weaponry, transport, etc. It doesn't give me spectacular advantages of any real kind, but it give them a bit of flavor. Likewise, my nation prefers linear accelerators and similar magnetic induction weapons, as opposed to the energy weapons of many other races, their ship shields function differently then the shields of other races (serving more as a futuristic version of a medieval tower shield than a regenerating second hull that covers the entire ship's surface. Also,I cannot fire through my shields using my weapons, forcing me to make tactical calls and expose my ships to fire if I wish to lay into them with those magnetic weapons my nation loves so much), and they utilize AVATARs as an analog for tanks and starfighters. These tweaks don't necesarily make my nation more powerful or better in ship-to-ship combat, and are mostly cinematic in their effect, making for entertaining battles.

The other problem in regards to that is how numerous and easy to produce these technologies are. A newbie in future tech should try to moderate their forces in scale to at least modest-at-best, and failing to do so is another cardinal problem, Otagia's example of the "I'ma gonna pwnz teh galaxy" thread being a perfect example. My FT nation currently has claims on (not controls, claims) five seperate star systems, all with only one or two colonizable worlds in their expanse. My FTL method of Space Folding means those distances are mostly irrelevant, since the amount of energy needed to bend space is almost always the same (AKA leaping one light year is just as easy as leaping twelve), and thusly the Commonwealth is spread somewhat thin (which is pretty realistic, since the majority of stars out there don't have a solar system of twelve Earth-analogs in orbit around them). As a result, they don't have the resources to make fleets of thousands. The total ship count for the Commonwealth is 24 Keyships (one for each heir and one for the Chancellor, each leading a fleet strength), 24 Carriers (one per fleet strength), 48 Frigates (two per fleet strength) and 96 Atlas-class Destroyers (four per fleet strength) for a grand total of 192 combat ships in Alliance's total fleet, not including science, logistics and civilian vessels of varying shapes and sizes, as well as two orbital platforms in orbit around worlds of particular value. It's a compact, but capable combat force, more suited to a fast-responce defense and exploration force than a galaxy conquering armada. I'll get around to finishing the logistics of my Nation very soon, since technically this Commonwealth I'm using represents the NS Commonwealth after around nine hundred years or so, accounting for controlled population growth and steady technological advances.

But anyway, bla-bla-bla, I've been prattling on forever, and probably have gone off topic. To sum it all up, I agree with most of the other guys here: It may not be entirely fair, but it's a somewhat necesary compromise so that us newbs can jump in and have fun from the get go with the big guys. If a newb, or any player for that matter, is acting like you've all described and godmoding, techwanking, etc, then simply ignore him if possible, or leave the thread and start a new, closed one for those who were doing the right thing and respecting their peers. Anyway, that's my two cents, straight from the mouth of noobs.





*I use this term to refer to a group of ships. It can refer to an armada, or a lowly patrol, or even a destroyers group. All can be considered fleet strengths, just with varying levels of strength

*applauds Second Alliance*

There is nthing wrong with starting out with several generic techs and then specilizing in your trademark tech or two. It is the "I want it all right now" mentality that gets me.

A new player should think about what they want to end up like and plot a tech tree or path to follow over time. They can use this as a guide for upgrades and make adjustments based off the actual RP events.

Did you meet up with the Balrogga Empire and get access to Singularity Torpedoes? Were you able to visit Otagia and negotiate a trade alliance that allows you to produce SCAAM Missiles for yourself? Did you join an alliance and gain some military upgrades that affected your projected technilogy tree?

There are so many NOOBS that want it all. They tend to complain when they don't get their way and they refuse to learn anything. That is what I am talking about.

NEWBS can be tought and they are willing to learn from others that are more experienced and are willing to fit in whith what is already posted. We were all NEWBS at one time when we started. NOOBS can be any age (nation-wise) but they all want themselves to be best.

As far as your nation, it sounds really interesting. I would like to encounter you ICly some day for an RP.

I'm gonna have to agree with Second Alliance on several matters, and also state that more than anything I believe in plotting out a storyline and having fun than getting into the details. The details ARE fun, I admit, but only once you have a fleshed out story.

Personally though I've had this whole thing come to me too. Since the Sertians came out of an idea for a story I was working on at the time I was invited to join, so they were thus incompatible with the population rule. However, I didn't think it would be fun/a good story to just be a rag tag group of a few million sitting it out on some dusty world they could barely spread themselves across on or sit around in a few dinky space stations or ships. Especially since you'd figure you'll need at least the resources of a fully inhabited planet (if not more) to get to the FT level.

My "problem" is almost the polar opposite of the usual, it seems. I started out the nation as Principality of Zeon after having won the Zeon War of Independence (One Year War), closing in on Gryps War era. That means there were no deflector shields, no FTL, no multiple star system to live in and so on. A war was brewing between the remnants of the Earth Federation who had been forced to move to Side 7 which had been hastily built up from what could be considered recycled colonies and some built from scratch (even the ones built from scratch are the kind "real" Spacenoids wouldn't live in without complaining). As a result, chronic overcrowding and several other related issues have been large problems in Side 7 ever since the end of the War of Independence.

But then came in people who pretty much gave my nation FTL and all kinds of other technology, and now my nation is (and has been) quickly veering off the "intended" path because ICly it would make no sense for it to not utilize the technologies it has acquired from outsiders. The war(s) were reduced into quick skirmishes where one side (namely the Federation remnant) got its ass whipped so badly (by outsiders) that it won't be doing any additional uprisings any time soon. Also, due to FTL and such, materials for building colonies and everything else would have become much more abundant, meaning that there'd be a lot more colonies being built right now than before, reducing the problems caused by overcrowding even in Side 7.

This isn't anywhere near the path I originally thought I'd walk down with this nation, but... I guess it's still fine. Could be a lot worse. Won't see me complaining about the result that much. The entire thing is interesting in its own way.

Well, if you didn't want it to be that way, ZP, you could have told them to stop or not give you the stuff. If its okay with then, alright, but if its your thread, they have to do what you say in regards to what they give you and whatnot.

Before I continue, I'd like to say that I don't consider this a real problem, nor am I really complaining about it. I'm just talking about how things turned out for me, which is sort of an amalgam of both my own "vision" and other people's input. What you'd really expect I'd wager, since this is a rather dynamic a roleplay environment.

I thought how the nation itself would ICly react to other nations giving technology to it and went with that rather than how I really-really wanted to run things (which was faster-than-canon speed, but not quite as fast as it has ended up being) from the moment I made the nation. I figured that it'd make very little sense for the nation to stay in a sort of bubble of its own where things advance on their own pace when they've found out that there's life outside their own Sol, all the while others are pretty much offering all this new stuff. How things have gone is in a way more "realistic" from a national point of view, even if it's not quite how I thought things would go.

That, and ignoring every little thing (like accidentally fighting with one of the many factions in Earth Sphere) someone happens/-ed to do outside the boundaries of what I originally had thought of would've been rather poor form in my own eyes. Sure, I told one guy to edit his post so as to not blow up Africa which was going a bit overboard. But I haven't stopped people from crushing fleets as long as it doesn't mean the death of my nation. Not that anyone has even tried to do unprovoked attacks of any nation crushing level, but then again, I guess I'd ignore those as would be my right.

What I'm trying to say is that I had a completely opposite beginning (and how things are turning out and have turned out) than many others with the Principality. Started on the weaker side, but the nation is getting a lot stronger due to others. It is interesting to see things take completely different turns than what you had originally thought of because of some unexpected input by someone else.

In fact, it's gotten to a point where I'd like seeing something new being done by someone else that could potentially enrich the story even more.

To Everyone: Thanks for the warm praise and support! I really appreciate it.

To Balrogga: I would love to RP with you sometime too. Ring me up when you wish!

To Zeon: Hmm. Interesting issue... well, there are plausible reasons why a nation would not use gifted FTL tech. Perhaps they are uncomfortable with it's use after a trail period and opt to store it for potential future use and research, but otherwise discontinue it's use. For example, should any race offer The Second Alliance Beam Weapon technology (Not FTL, but the example of alien tech stands), they would accept it but would only use it for research purposes or archive it for special situations. They simply are not comfortable with that technology. They've actually discovered it themselves some time ago (see Plasma Induction Weapons when I get around to making that file), and prefer to stick to their old, highly reliable standby. This might be a case of "too little to late" for your nation if you've already intergrated the tech into your standard equipment, but just throwing it out there for consideration. Also, I'm glad it's not a problem and your enjoying your nation even more perhaps. Ahh, doesn't FTL make the universe a warmer place? BD

I have integrated other people's technologies into the standard equipment of the nation, but usually with some twists. With FTL, I roleplayed that there were a few companies (namely Zimmad and ZEONIC) that were making their own FTL drive prototypes based on what was received from another nation, and they never quite reached the level where the original had been, but the drives still do the job. They do FTL jumps. That technically gives me a chance to pop into open FT RPs as the FTL drives are prone to malfunction (for instance, one habitually breaks down in long jumps among other things and the other one is very prone to malfunctioning even from residual FTLi stuff (among other things)) from a bunch of things.

That kind of FTL is still mostly in use in the Principality, while more reliable FTL techs from some friendly nations have begun to spread into the nation. Having realized that there are other people in the universe, saying "no" to FTL or rejecting it because they wouldn't have been "comfortable" with it wouldn't really a viable choice from an IC stand point. It's sort of like this: "Holy crap, they can get HERE from THERE?! We need that ability ASAP!"

And while I was originally kind of against making my own modified Mobile Suit specs that have technology integrated from other folks, I've learned to actually like messing with that stuff (all thanks to Axis Nova, really). In fact, I went forward with a subplot where they in fact ended up reverse engineering technology from two other human societies (namely BattleTech Clans (Skaugra) and Battlestar Galactica Twelve Colonies (Orthodox Gnosticism)), and have started to find ways to utilize that information in Mobile Suits. Yay for quasi-psycommu with traits from the BattleMech neurohelmet, Suits without tons and tons of propellant inside them and so on.

Yep, this is pretty far away from where I thought I'd go originally, but I'm liking it for the most part so far.

I owe you a post, ZP. >____<

But that is the whole point. Gaining stuff through Role Play instead of just acquiring it.

It makes much more sense and is a lot more fun.

@Axis Nova: Yes, you do. You seem to have a bad habit of not posting for a while... A lot of the time. :p Now gimme posts, pretty please!

And Balrogga, yes, I agree. Also exactly the reason why while I sometimes look at storefronts, I haven't actually used one. If I were to use one I'd first have to roleplay knowing the nation that controls the storefront anyway.

From This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=578709). I honestly don't know why I'm bothering to do this.


The size makes it a little more imaginable if not even more fantastic, wheres Xessmithia when i need him to go into all the physics stuff. a 200 meter ship that can obliterate entire star systems with a singe shot, is retarded at best.
Actually, it can't. The fellow who brought it up was exaggerating somewhat on that point.

But regardless, 'retarded' is your interpretation, fair enough, no one is actually compelling you to read the books. Although I've met the author of the Culture series, I am not him, and it's got pretty much nothing to do with me what he decides to write. Given that he has a half page interview in today's Guardian, and regularly cranks out sizeable and highly popular novels, in both science fiction and contemporary fiction genres from which he is able to earn a living, I do not think he is actually a retard. I merely came into the thread when I was given a link, to clarify some details of what was being referenced.
Mass always has to be taken into affect, its basic physics. however, 200 meter as opposed to 200 km, is a vast difference. a 200 m is easily maneuverable, a 200 km is not. G forces can be eliminated by inertial dampeners yes but thats not what im talking about, you still need to be able to turn the ship to create G forces in the first place. ah if robots could think thered be none of us around would there.
Not inertial dampeners; not everyone steals their ideas from star trek. Anyway, moving swiftly on.
it was a rough guestamite based on a 200 km measurment, a 200 meter ship doesnt even need a zpm though it would need a round 5 or so to power its all destructive laser spam o doom. and if your gonna use stargate tech learn it. Goa'uld dont use Zpms the Tau'ri do
Quite, but beyond appropriating the concepts (and intellectual property) of the series, the history of my nation diverges quite rapidly, even if mine currently has none of these devices (at least until I post again) they know what they are, and seek them.
it wasnt until during the show that the Goa'uld even realize what they are. 2 Atlantis is not lighter than water
Not only does it float, but it actually rises from the ocean floor when its clamps are released. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD2_FG1RoZE) It does not just float, as a modern ship does, it is actually less dense than water.
or did you miss all the episodes where the ship is sinking and shepard has to stop it?Yes. And that's rather odd, given that I've seen all of them. Gravitic drives and stabalizers keep Atlantis afloat. Constantly being powered by 3 zpms.
It sat quite happily on the surface in episode two when not not only did it have no functional zpms to power it, but they'd shut off all the naquadah reactors. By your reckoning, it should sink like a stone. It then spent almost the entire series being powered by 0-1 ZPMs, with only a few occasions where it was fully powered.
a ship thats 200 meters long easily crewed by 2000 men, simple effective number, and like i said automated sytems reduce the need for crew. the USS enterprise E was like 840 meters long and had a crew of like 900 or something like that.
Again. He was reffering to a space vessel from a series of books. Not Nationstates. What seems fair doesn't really apply (though there are equivalent technology, and even larger) to such things. Most books don't have to put up with maintaining a healthy, competative roleplay enviroment.

Culture ships are truly insane, I haven't read the books but I've seen analysis that peg one of their weapon types, that I can't remember the name of, at 10^45 Joules. That's the same as a supernova, so yes a single Culture warship could destroy an entire solar system. They also have crazy Effectors that do things like take over ships from light-years away in micro-seconds. They're a WAY WAY high end sci-fi civilization. Completely unrealistic of course but everything but no-FTL hard sci-fi is.

Culture ships are truly insane, I haven't read the books but I've seen analysis that peg one of their weapon types, that I can't remember the name of, at 10^45 Joules. That's the same as a supernova, so yes a single Culture warship could destroy an entire solar system. They also have crazy Effectors that do things like take over ships from light-years away in micro-seconds. They're a WAY WAY high end sci-fi civilization. Completely unrealistic of course but everything but no-FTL hard sci-fi is.

And they tend to become dull and uninteresting because of the lack of tension from realizing there is no risk of defeat for one of the sides and the results on these RPs with uber-wankage of DOOM are usually extremely predictable, and as dry and uninspiring as the AIs that run such wankships.

It is the FT equivalent of "I launch 10000 missiles. Post losses"

And they tend to become dull and uninteresting because of the lack of tension from realizing there is no risk of defeat for one of the sides and the results on these RPs with uber-wankage of DOOM are usually extremely predictable, and as dry and uninspiring as the AIs that run such wankships.

It is the FT equivalent of "I launch 10000 missiles. Post losses"

Oy! My AI-driven wankships are quite interesting, thank you.

Culture ships are truly insane, I haven't read the books but I've seen analysis that peg one of their weapon types, that I can't remember the name of, at 10^45 Joules. That's the same as a supernova, so yes a single Culture warship could destroy an entire solar system. They also have crazy Effectors that do things like take over ships from light-years away in micro-seconds. They're a WAY WAY high end sci-fi civilization. Completely unrealistic of course but everything but no-FTL hard sci-fi is.
Eh, they operate quite well under the assumption that the universe is essentially sandwiched between two layers of hyperspace, which contains most of (and powers) Culture ships. To be honest though, anything that doesn't have to do with hyperspace or is Grid-powered is relatively hard. Banks does a pretty good job depicting orbitals, for instance, as well as DEWs and other non-Gridfire weapon systems. Of course, the prime reason I read the novels isn't so much the pretty tech (although it is there, and it is pretty ;) ), but the unique and interesting cultures (lowercase, not just the Culture). The Affront, the Chelgrians, and the Azad all have extremely interesting and unique cultures, not to mention the Dwellers from The Algebraist (which uses much, much, MUCH harder tech, virtually the only allowance being a wormhole gate system, although those have to be transported at STL speeds between systems).

And they tend to become dull and uninteresting because of the lack of tension from realizing there is no risk of defeat for one of the sides and the results on these RPs with uber-wankage of DOOM are usually extremely predictable, and as dry and uninspiring as the AIs that run such wankships.

It is the FT equivalent of "I launch 10000 missiles. Post losses"

That's more of a problem of poor RP planning and execution. A properly designed Culture RP with willing participants who understand the scale can make an interesting story out of it.

. . .the more I see of FT the less impressed I am. I mean whats the point of building an invulnerable ship? (or one that might as well be so) Its not fun for any other participant and it requires absolutely nothing in terms of skill by the RP'er. Any noob can write "My massive 3 0000 kilometer ships is completely protected by its invulnerability shield that destroys you if you attack it. Oh and it can move as 9999999-x the speed of light". More importantly how do people get away with RP'ing GODS in ft??? gah. . .

. . .the more I see of FT the less impressed I am. I mean whats the point of building an invulnerable ship? (or one that might as well be so) Its not fun for any other participant and it requires absolutely nothing in terms of skill by the RP'er. Any noob can write "My massive 3 0000 kilometer ships is completely protected by its invulnerability shield that destroys you if you attack it. Oh and it can move as 9999999-x the speed of light". More importantly how do people get away with RP'ing GODS in ft??? gah. . .

Massively good point. When I RP FT, I work with "reality" in a way that I can twist things (ie, to the SW/ST/B5/Halo/Mass Effect levels) to meet FT objectives, but in enough of a containment that shit doesn't get completely out of hand with massive handwavium going on (and before we accuse SW/ST of total handwavium...a lotta stuff is fairly plausible, granted a long way away in the future with a bunch of discoveries...)

Gods, I have no idea. That's people bein absolutely ridiculous. Everything has weaknesses (everything I got has weaknesses for sure...) and I expect other people not to have "invulnerability" of any sort.

. . .the more I see of FT the less impressed I am. I mean whats the point of building an invulnerable ship? (or one that might as well be so) Its not fun for any other participant and it requires absolutely nothing in terms of skill by the RP'er. Any noob can write "My massive 3 0000 kilometer ships is completely protected by its invulnerability shield that destroys you if you attack it. Oh and it can move as 9999999-x the speed of light". More importantly how do people get away with RP'ing GODS in ft??? gah. . .

There is no point to building an invulnerable ship, beyond polishing one's own e-manhood - which I guess is why the term 'wanking' was appropriated for this particular pastime in the first place (finally, it all makes sense now).

I think a significant problem in future tech land is that, unlike modern tech, where at least some semblance of reality can be used as a basis for the capabilities of various forms of equipment, soft sci-fi users are only limited by the scope their imagination. When you combine this absence of any kind of reality ceiling with a voracious, and possibly masculine, need for endless competition and ego-buffing, we are presented with a cold war scenario.

Unfortunately, FT is an arena where cold wars have no foreseeable end. Resources are considered to be endless, diplomacy exists only in the minds of naive idealists, all political leaders are either evil, clichéd psychopaths or some kind of equally-evil demi-gods (each of which still use swords in many cases, for some bizarre reason), the political climate is always right for war and military expansion, and the economies of the universe never enter recession. We enter a realm where the technologies involved in warfare have already broken the laws of physics, or at least the boundaries of believability, and their true capabilities can never really be known. When everybody wants to be the scariest, baddest mofo on the galactic block and the laws of physics don't apply, what are you gonna do?

Simply put, if I read your factbook and notice you have a warship roughly one kilometre long, with an arsenal capable of delivering a combined output of seventy terawatts of directed energy against a target, there is nothing beyond my own sense of self-respect which prevents me from simply adding on a few zeros to my own ships' statistics - for no other reason than making sure I'm still the bestest at blowin' stuffs up. And I can build three thousand of them instantly, because I have legions of robots who can work at ten times the speed of light, and there's little anybody can do.

Once I've done that, I can be safe in the knowledge that I've metagamed my way to victory in any future threads where my nation is pitted against yours, unless you notice my leapfrogging and return the favour with a few zeros of your own. The needs of Vescopa's people, the present domestic political climate, and the availability of capital, resources and labour wouldn't even factor in to such as massive military expansion either, and the economy wouldn't ever suffer from it. At least not in a large number of players' cases. Because few, if any, people in FT care about such things.

Throughout the brazen penis measuring contests described above we have only two clear, effective weapons left at our disposal - self-restraint complemented by a healthy dose of common sense is one of the more potent ones. And the ignore cannon is pretty handy in unresolvable situations as well. We all have our own particular limits when it comes to the suspension of disbelief, but even those can be bent for the purposes of plot devices and crafting entertaining roleplays. I think a simple rule of thumb is, if your ship sounds ridiculous to you and you're not sure if it will be accepted by anybody at all, it probably won't.

And you'll never get a god in any thread of mine. If you want to play with Zeus, you'll find him in the Fantasy Tech aisle - I know, I know, the abbreviation looks the same, it can be confusing!

Snip

I think one of the points there is to avoid using stats-based RPing as is often seen in MT. Usage of watts and joules and the like is not only dry and boring in the storytelling sense (converted from MT...in MT it's occasionally necessary but still dry and boring) but displays a lack of any creativity...and who really wants to participate in a thread like that, when we're supposed to be creating interesting plots and believable (in that FT sense) scenarios?

I intentionally don't put output levels/statistics of the like just so one can use their imagination. In threads I run in...I just interpret stats-based RPing to a level of creativity and base my posts from what kind of actual image I can conjure up from the other writer's piece. It shouldn't be about who can win, but about working together to produce a masterpiece.

I think one of the points there is to avoid using stats-based RPing as is often seen in MT. Usage of watts and joules and the like is not only dry and boring in the storytelling sense (converted from MT...in MT it's occasionally necessary but still dry and boring) but displays a lack of any creativity...and who really wants to participate in a thread like that, when we're supposed to be creating interesting plots and believable (in that FT sense) scenarios?

I intentionally don't put output levels/statistics of the like just so one can use their imagination. In threads I run in...I just interpret stats-based RPing to a level of creativity and base my posts from what kind of actual image I can conjure up from the other writer's piece. It shouldn't be about who can win, but about working together to produce a masterpiece.

The use of statistics in and of itself wasn't really my point - big guns cause big damage, little guns cause little damage, it's an idealistic thought that's been batted around here for a while and one that I agree with too, even if I doubt its practicality when you introduce human beings into the equation. After all, the cold war rages on even if you don't know what the other side is capable of exactly - it just means you ramp up the Absurdity Reactor to maximum power levels in the hopes that you have more juice than they do.

And as we can all patently see just from glancing around in some of the darker corners of II, when neither side is willing to divert any blood away from their e-manhood and back up to their brain, it is like a collision of two immovable objects moving towards each other at c... a grotesque, paradoxical mess. And thanks to time dilation effects we get to watch it in slow motion!

*snip*
My apologies if I've presented my ships as being invulerable, it was never my intention. They're rather tough, but I was actually pretty surprised when your fleet when down as quickly as it did in Legacy. If I can resist just blowing your fleet up immediately after Monad's Avatar gets to the conference room, I'd enjoy a more diplomatic RP with you later.

Also, agreed with you on the gods part. Entity claiming to be a god (40K's warp gods, for instance), sure. Actual deities, not so much.
Resources are considered to be endless, diplomacy exists only in the minds of naive idealists, all political leaders are either evil, clichéd psychopaths or some kind of equally-evil demi-gods (each of which still use swords in many cases, for some bizarre reason)
While my resources are indeed near endless (sorry, side effect of having molecular foundries), I'll have you know that not only has QUETZAL engaged in diplomacy on multiple occasions, he is neither evil, a psychopath, or a sword-wielding demigod. Still relatively godlike, what with his ability to pretty much shut off the Otagian citizenry at a whim, but I like to think he's programmed better than that. ;)

Massively good point. When I RP FT, I work with "reality" in a way that I can twist things (ie, to the SW/ST/B5/Halo/Mass Effect levels) to meet FT objectives, but in enough of a containment that shit doesn't get completely out of hand with massive handwavium going on (and before we accuse SW/ST of total handwavium...a lotta stuff is fairly plausible, granted a long way away in the future with a bunch of discoveries...)

Gods, I have no idea. That's people bein absolutely ridiculous. Everything has weaknesses (everything I got has weaknesses for sure...) and I expect other people not to have "invulnerability" of any sort.
exactly (actually the last few posts have made my point for me).

Oh otagia I wasn't referring to you. That thread may have gotten a little tech wanky for my liking (especially with Faster than Light missiles) but it stayed pretty much within reason. Even so, though, I've been tempted to join other FT threads and they just get so rediculous so fast . . . .

Some of the factors above are why I currently RP as fairly canon B5 Earth Alliance tech, and furthermore roleplay my nation as a large number of nomadic fleets with no planetary holdings, rather than as a cohesive organization. That way I can get involved in a great many things, and if a particularly unbalancing piece of tech falls into one fleet's lap, it won't neccesarily spread to others.

Likewise, if some jerk pops out a Borg Death Star on me, then even if I lose that fleet, then my nation in general is not seriously affected (and I know to avoid that person in the future).

One example of fantastically wank stuff I've seen are Kythons. They're roleplayed as being able to absorb nearly all forms of matter and energy. That pretty much speaks for itself.

And yeah, I do agree that people having gods running around is silly, though there are ways to handle that. Suppose someone recovered some skin particles or a hair or something from somewhere one of these gods had been? Take it down to ye olde biolab and grow your own. ;p

Some of the factors above are why I currently RP as fairly canon B5 Earth Alliance tech, and furthermore roleplay my nation as a large number of nomadic fleets with no planetary holdings, rather than as a cohesive organization. That way I can get involved in a great many things, and if a particularly unbalancing piece of tech falls into one fleet's lap, it won't neccesarily spread to others.

Likewise, if some jerk pops out a Borg Death Star on me, then even if I lose that fleet, then my nation in general is not seriously affected (and I know to avoid that person in the future).

One example of fantastically wank stuff I've seen are Kythons. They're roleplayed as being able to absorb nearly all forms of matter and energy. That pretty much speaks for itself.

And yeah, I do agree that people having gods running around is silly, though there are ways to handle that. Suppose someone recovered some skin particles or a hair or something from somewhere one of these gods had been? Take it down to ye olde biolab and grow your own. ;p

lol Vat grown gods lmao I like it ;p

DaWoad

Did you just grave dig this old thread? Or are there two people still using it? Cause I remember this and it died out long ago.

I created this Thread to act as a place for arguments to find a home outside their IC and OOC Threads and since there will never be an end to all arguments, as long as NS is online this Thread is welcome to host those disrupting arguments.

For this reason I hope it gets "grave dug" every time if it keeps a Thread from being hijacked. Consider it an unofficial sticky Thread if it helps, always welcome for posts if it helps.



As far as Kythons, I will not argue for their defense. Ask other nations I regularlly post with if I wank them or even ask CoreWorlds if I am unwilling to work with him to create IC research on defeating them. I will say nothing further on this subject.

And they tend to become dull and uninteresting because of the lack of tension from realizing there is no risk of defeat for one of the sides and the results on these RPs with uber-wankage of DOOM are usually extremely predictable, and as dry and uninspiring as the AIs that run such wankships.

It is the FT equivalent of "I launch 10000 missiles. Post losses" That's ludicrous. The Cultureverse, just like, lets say, the Whoverse or the Xeeleeverse (To name two other, equally wanky/ even wankier 'verses) was not created to 'Compete' with other 'verses. It's its own, closed, continuity. Where in-universe, there's about a dozen entities perfectly capable of matching the Culture. Where in the novels, the obscene technology plays a remarkably little role compared to human interaction and... Subversive activities (To wit, the IMHO best novel, Player of Games, has a grand total of zero spacebattles).

If you don't get the difference between 'A Novel' and 'A roleplaying-environment', I do, frankly, feel sorry for you.

And if you're bitching about people using overpowered SciFiverses in NS against much weaker ones... Well... What about ICS fetishists forcing their Stardestroyers upon B5 Cruisers? Trekkies ramming themselves on top of nBSG? Just as, if not more so, retarded and unbalanced.Culture ships are truly insane, I haven't read the books but I've seen analysis that peg one of their weapon types, that I can't remember the name of, at 10^45 Joules.That'd appear to be a rather dramatic exaggeration (Granted, everything the versus-community produces is a dramatic exaggeration and 99% bullshit), and although the Culture (And the dozen or so equivtech civilisation it's around) has been described as popping stars (By unknown means, I should add), the feats it shows with regards to ship-to-ship combat don't even require planetbusting - mere continent-scorchers should suffice.

What makes the Culture(verse) superior isn't its firepower - there are assorted SciFi verses that can match, or even exceed it. Xeelee, particularly overwanked versions of Star Wars, Lensmen... All quite capable of being a match in terms of firepower (If not necessarily for energy density). And in terms of speed, it's actually at the lower end of the scale, with 233 1/3 k times c being regarded as obscenely fucking fast. Maybe half of SciFi basically laughs at that.

Hell, even its 'Exotic Technology' can - at least in principle - be matched. Displacers? Well, Star Trek or Perry Rhodan have their beaming & teleporters, and at least the Perry Rhodan ones exist for basically the same purpose the Culture ones exist (Ordnance Delivery). Effectors? Pft, every second 'verse has its psionics.

What makes it so dramatically superior to alternative 'verses is only, and exclusively, its absurd reaction times (Well. Ludicrous engagement ranges being a close second). If it wasn't capable of fighting a spacebattle between several dozen ships, with drawn-out exchange of fire and about half a dozen casualties over the course of eleven microseconds, but rather, say, two minutes, 99% of what makes it nigh-invincible to most other 'verses would be gone.

That's ludicrous. The Cultureverse, just like, lets say, the Whoverse or the Xeeleeverse (To name two other, equally wanky/ even wankier 'verses) was not created to 'Compete' with other 'verses. It's its own, closed, continuity. Where in-universe, there's about a dozen entities perfectly capable of matching the Culture. Where in the novels, the obscene technology plays a remarkably little role compared to human interaction and... Subversive activities (To wit, the IMHO best novel, Player of Games, has a grand total of zero spacebattles).

If you don't get the difference between 'A Novel' and 'A roleplaying-environment', I do, frankly, feel sorry for you.

And if you're bitching about people using overpowered SciFiverses in NS against much weaker ones... Well... What about ICS fetishists forcing their Stardestroyers upon B5 Cruisers? Trekkies ramming themselves on top of nBSG? Just as, if not more so, retarded and unbalanced.That'd appear to be a rather dramatic exaggeration (Granted, everything the versus-community produces is a dramatic exaggeration and 99% bullshit), and although the Culture (And the dozen or so equivtech civilisation it's around) has been described as popping stars (By unknown means, I should add), the feats it shows with regards to ship-to-ship combat don't even require planetbusting - mere continent-scorchers should suffice.

What makes the Culture(verse) superior isn't its firepower - there are assorted SciFi verses that can match, or even exceed it. Xeelee, particularly overwanked versions of Star Wars, Lensmen... All quite capable of being a match in terms of firepower (If not necessarily for energy density). And in terms of speed, it's actually at the lower end of the scale, with 233 1/3 k times c being regarded as obscenely fucking fast. Maybe half of SciFi basically laughs at that.

Hell, even its 'Exotic Technology' can - at least in principle - be matched. Displacers? Well, Star Trek or Perry Rhodan have their beaming & teleporters, and at least the Perry Rhodan ones exist for basically the same purpose the Culture ones exist (Ordnance Delivery). Effectors? Pft, every second 'verse has its psionics.

What makes it so dramatically superior to alternative 'verses is only, and exclusively, its absurd reaction times (Well. Ludicrous engagement ranges being a close second). If it wasn't capable of fighting a spacebattle between several dozen ships, with drawn-out exchange of fire and about half a dozen casualties over the course of eleven microseconds, but rather, say, two minutes, 99% of what makes it nigh-invincible to most other 'verses would be gone.
(I didn't gravedig this lol someone else did :D)
Still uber wanky and physically impossible. At least some of the other verses try to stay within general limits. (also the engagement ranges for an 11 micro seconds would have to be LESS than 11 micro-light seconds which is ridiculously close range).

Yeah, that would be punching range at the most.

Still uber wanky and physically impossible. At least some of the other verses try to stay within general limits. (also the engagement ranges for an 11 micro seconds would have to be LESS than 11 micro-light seconds which is ridiculously close range).
Technically, no. Culture-verse ships typically fight from hyperspace with FTL weapons, so 11 microseconds is enough time for, say, several strafing runs by a GOU against an enemy fleet.

I'll be the first to admit that it's rather wanky, but IMHO it's the inevitable result of FTL influencing tactics.

(I didn't gravedig this lol someone else did :D)
Still uber wanky and physically impossible. At least some of the other verses try to stay within general limits. (also the engagement ranges for an 11 micro seconds would have to be LESS than 11 micro-light seconds which is ridiculously close range). What isn't wanky? Besides, I for one like wanking - literally as well as figuratively
Actually, prolly in the singledigit-lightyear range (10- 100 trillion km). 11 micro-lightseconds is the range you usually see ships shoot each other on TV-SciFi. As you may or may not have noticed, print-SciFi tends to be much more impressive than that on a regular basisIn any case, it does appear that you're trying your best to miss the point. If that's your intention, just... Stop bothering.

Edit: As an aside, I for one love the concept of going all-out and incorporating the consequences of FTL in general technology, be it warfare or whatever. Authors/ Scriptwriters who try to hide their physics raping and blush embarrassedly with a whispered 'Well, it's just a plot-device' annoy me. If you have it, use it, ffs.

Doesn't necessarily apply to a roleplaying-environment were some semblance of balance has to be kept, I suppose (Though, NS never bothered with balance, anyway), but since you appear to argue against the Culture- (And other?)verse's twinkiness in general, eh.

Simply using very powerful technology is not inherently wanky.

Using it BECAUSE it's very powerful, and because you want to have an advantage in an RP, however, is.

As an example of this, someone called Mini Miehm once combined Protoss recall ability from Starcraft with Honor Harrington gravity wedges, and would insist he could recall people into his gravity wedges and kill them instantly.

What isn't wanky? Besides, I for one like wanking - literally as well as figuratively
Actually, prolly in the singledigit-lightyear range (10- 100 trillion km). 11 micro-lightseconds is the range you usually see ships shoot each other on TV-SciFi. As you may or may not have noticed, print-SciFi tends to be much more impressive than that on a regular basisIn any case, it does appear that you're trying your best to miss the point. If that's your intention, just... Stop bothering.

Edit: As an aside, I for one love the concept of going all-out and incorporating the consequences of FTL in general technology, be it warfare or whatever. Authors/ Scriptwriters who try to hide their physics raping and blush embarrassedly with a whispered 'Well, it's just a plot-device' annoy me. If you have it, use it, ffs.

Doesn't necessarily apply to a roleplaying-environment were some semblance of balance has to be kept, I suppose (Though, NS never bothered with balance, anyway), but since you appear to argue against the Culture- (And other?)verse's twinkiness in general, eh.
And thank you Axis.

And here's the thing. I've got no problem with tech as long as its based within some sort of limit. FTL is a pre-req for any kind of interesting space battle and I LIKE honorverse tech (or anything similar that remains somewhat within the bounds of reason.). I'm not against FT in general. I am against tech-wanking to the point that any kind of combat becomes "my uber invincible ship blows your units away with FTL missiles landing directly in every ship. Then it instantly transports to your home system and blows it away too. GG". Oh, by the way . . .what was the point that I was missing?

What isn't wanky? Besides, I for one like wanking - literally as well as figuratively
Actually, prolly in the singledigit-lightyear range (10- 100 trillion km). 11 micro-lightseconds is the range you usually see ships shoot each other on TV-SciFi. As you may or may not have noticed, print-SciFi tends to be much more impressive than that on a regular basisIn any case, it does appear that you're trying your best to miss the point. If that's your intention, just... Stop bothering.
(A combat across light-year range that's over in microseconds . .. so FTL weapons? not energy based . . .which means those incredibly believable FTL missiles again . . . .)

You lost me at the part where Science Fiction is supposed to make sense, and we're supposed to care about it making sense...As opposed to say, the STORY, which matters infinitely more than the window dressings and backdrop.

(A combat across light-year range that's over in microseconds . .. so FTL weapons? not energy based . . .which means those incredibly believable FTL missiles again . . . .)

Nah, it's energy based usually. It just doesn't occur in realspace, or if it does it's either gridfire (best explanation I can think of atm is a sort of ZPE blast occuring at any given point in space) or displacing CAM (capsulated antimatter) across the space the target is going to occupy. Memetic warfare is also rather common, invading the the enemy ship's Mind and convincing it to commit suicide, or even switch sides. That, or just using effectors to detonate the target's reactor.

Mind you, if you have FTL, why wouldn't you use it in missiles? If you can get a drive small enough for a fighter, something the size of an ICBM would be cake, and provide a massive tactical (hell, and strategic) advantage. This is from an IC standpoint, mind you. OOCly, it's just trying to minimize plotholes.

Nah, it's energy based usually. It just doesn't occur in realspace, or if it does it's either gridfire (best explanation I can think of atm is a sort of ZPE blast occuring at any given point in space) or displacing CAM (capsulated antimatter) across the space the target is going to occupy. Memetic warfare is also rather common, invading the the enemy ship's Mind and convincing it to commit suicide, or even switch sides. That, or just using effectors to detonate the target's reactor.

Mind you, if you have FTL, why wouldn't you use it in missiles? If you can get a drive small enough for a fighter, something the size of an ICBM would be cake, and provide a massive tactical (hell, and strategic) advantage. This is from an IC standpoint, mind you. OOCly, it's just trying to minimize plotholes.

cost effectiveness, depending on the type of missle the cost of producing an FTL drive for the missle could cost more than the actual missle itself. and creating an expensive FTL drive for the sole purpose of crashing and exploding is a waste of money. Now FTL on say a super missle is one thing, but on your standard torpedo would cost trillions of dollars over time.

Plus to quote Xessimithia, "Fighters only exist because they're more fun than missles." FTL drive on a Fighter works more for plot the FTL missle

(A combat across light-year range that's over in microseconds . .. so FTL weapons? not energy based . . .which means those incredibly believable FTL missiles again . . . .)

or if it does it's either gridfire

Actually, though I can't provide any evidence, so you'll just have to take my word for it, as of 04/05, Iain M Banks didn't know if the Culture's Gridfire projectors (though the Dra'azon - read ascended-uberbeings for anyone who hasn't read the books in question) is actually deployable as a tactical weapon, or if they're strictly strategic, as used in Consider Phlebas, the only time it is actually shown in the books, against a static, inert target.

or displacing CAM (capsulated antimatter)
Translation for the uninitiated; teleport. Though the term 'displacer' pops up fairly regularly in NS in the same context, this'd be where that comes from.That, or just using effectors to detonate the target's reactor.I wouldn't think, given the revalation about engine components and effectors in Matter that this is actually possible. I would imagine they'd shield such critical control devices in a similar manner, if that's at all feisable given the mass limitations of the craft.

I wouldn't think, given the revalation about engine components and effectors in Matter that this is actually possible. I would imagine they'd shield such critical control devices in a similar manner, if that's at all feisable given the mass limitations of the craft.
IIRC, didn't the ship in Excession (an ROU, I think) use this method against the Affronter fleet during its "suicide run?" On reflection I might be wrong, as I seem to remember it subverting the Minds of the ships it was attacking, causing them to detonate their own reactors. I'll have to dig out my copy.

cost effectiveness, depending on the type of missle the cost of producing an FTL drive for the missle could cost more than the actual missle itself. and creating an expensive FTL drive for the sole purpose of crashing and exploding is a waste of money. Now FTL on say a super missle is one thing, but on your standard torpedo would cost trillions of dollars over time.
Depends entirely on your FTL system, of course, along with your economy. If your civilization has advanced to a point where civvies can afford to own their own FTL-capable ships, or you've got a post-scarcity economy, there's no real excuse NOT to have FTL missiles, barring some sort of inherent issue with the FTL system itself that prevents its use in missiles. For instance, the Federation should be shot for not simply replicating up a bunch of warp-capable shuttles and filling 'em with antimatter.

Yeah, I think it screwed with the target's mind until the target became suicidal, rather than remotely blowing it up.

And thank you Axis.

And here's the thing. I've got no problem with tech as long as its based within some sort of limit. FTL is a pre-req for any kind of interesting space battle and I LIKE honorverse tech (or anything similar that remains somewhat within the bounds of reason.). I'm not against FT in general. I am against tech-wanking to the point that any kind of combat becomes "my uber invincible ship blows your units away with FTL missiles landing directly in every ship. Then it instantly transports to your home system and blows it away too. GG". Oh, by the way . . .what was the point that I was missing?

There is a problem with these sorts of limits though: Plausibility/versimilitude.

If you can put an FTL drive on a fighter (or something even smaller, some people, myself included, have teleporting ground units), you can probably put one on a missile. Of course, I have FTL missiles too, which I keep for long range combat; the assumption being that most enemies have FTLi, so they'll just get ripped out of FTL anyway and make a terminal end run on the target in real space. But that's neither here nor there.

So, obviously any nation with intelligent tactical planners and requisition officers would have FTL missiles.

But as you say, FTL missiles are rather boring* if used in a sort of "I FTL my missiles into your bridge, lolz" way.

So you're left scrambling for a reason why your intelligent military planners would just have a blindspot with regards to missiles. When you can use a single FTL missile and dump it into the enemy's CIC, it can do the job of over nine thousand normal missiles that might otherwise splash ineffectively against their shields and hull.

Basically, the problem is that usually, artificially limiting your nation in such a manner makes your characters look stupider than they should. There are ways around this issue, of course, but generally, it's hard to see a character or nation as some sort of tactical genius if they don't use their own resources and tools to the fullest, y'know?

*Assuming your enemy doesn't have FTLi, which is a decent artificial way to prevent this sort of thing. I strongly suggest that everyone invest in FTLi! Otherwise, I will teleport ten billion gallons of napalm into each of your ships! I kid, I kid.

Edit: I should note that I'm a huge wanker, and that I have no problem with wank in general, so long as it's used to further the story rather than as an I win button.

There is a problem with these sorts of limits though: Plausibility/versimilitude.

If you can put an FTL drive on a fighter (or something even smaller, some people, myself included, have teleporting ground units), you can probably put one on a missile. Of course, I have FTL missiles too, which I keep for long range combat; the assumption being that most enemies have FTLi, so they'll just get ripped out of FTL anyway and make a terminal end run on the target in real space. But that's neither here nor there.

So, obviously any nation with intelligent tactical planners and requisition officers would have FTL missiles.

Putting psykers inside missiles to guide them as suicidal pilots through the Warp is tyranny. As I don't RP another fascist police State in Space! it becomes impossible, no matter how there are psykers in the entropic legions, but they are too valuable to be wasted as kamikaze pilots... plus could anyone guarantee that the missiles won't return back against the ship that launched them because Khorne was unpleased with them?

And I intend to eventually develop my FTLi: the Applied Skepticism and Special Relativity Advanced Enforcement Pocket (ASSRAEP)

*Edit: The wonders of Hard Science

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html

Bottom line is an x-ray laser is technologically very challenging, but if you manage to make one you have an Unstoppable Death Ray of Stupendous Range.

As for Kythons... I suppose I haven't made a wrong choice by dismissing most lazerz to go all the way to spinal relativistic gauss cannons. Not that they will ever be a threat due to diplomatic reasons.

As for missiles with Large Hadron Colliders inside, I'd only deploy them against people who wank "NONE OF YOUR WEAPONS CAN SCRATCH MY SHIPS MWAMWAMWA!" as a last warning before the IGNORE supermassive black hole cannon or as sparse plot device.

Also, according to the overall wank and tech level of a FT thread, I have two versions of Solar Communes I will deploy depending on which will fit better. One based in the 22nd century and another based on the year 5000 AD.

Putting psykers inside missiles to guide them as suicidal pilots through the Warp is tyranny. As I don't RP another fascist police State in Space! it becomes impossible, no matter how there are psykers in the entropic legions, but they are too valuable to be wasted as kamikaze pilots... plus could anyone guarantee that the missiles won't return back against the ship that launched them because Khorne was unpleased with them?


Exceptions made for living FTL drives. :p

As for Kythons... I suppose I haven't made a wrong choice by dismissing most lazerz to go all the way to spinal relativistic gauss cannons. Not that they will ever be a threat due to diplomatic reasons.

Everyone knows there's no kill like kinetic kill, after all.

another based on the year 5000 AD.

Surely you mean 9001 AD.

Surely you mean 9001 AD.
Not really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_millennium#Science_predictions)

And I may make another version yet...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_millennium_and_beyond#Science_predictions

Probably I won't... so far it's enough for me to have Type I and Type II versions of Solar Communes and I don't find interesting the idea of RPing a Type III Civ.

Probably I won't... so far it's enough for me to have Type I and Type II versions of Solar Communes and I don't find interesting the idea of RPing a Type III Civ.

Heh, I RP Type III, I love galactic scale stuff.

Heh, I RP Type III, I love galactic scale stuff.

Problem is, Solar Communes would have at best 5 solar systems as a Type III civilization still restricted to slower-than-light travel because of the scientific laws of their universe, with each of them having the same economical and military capabilities of an entire galactic empire, and artificially built suns and planets through resources taken from the closest uninhabitable solar systems.

The "develop internally instead of expanding until it just reaches ridiculously excessive levels of infrastructure" has been a constant theme for both Solar Communes and its MT ancestor*.

It's not my cup of tea to go with galactic scale stuff... it becomes superficial at best, while having just a couple of hyper-developed worlds allows for writing in-depth about them and having them as more than the usual clichés of the genre(factory planet, low tech agricultural planet etc etc.)

*Fixed: Current(2039) Third Spanish States population density is higher than that of Trantor(LOL). And I swear it is mostly Modern Tech.

Ooh I'm glad this got revived. There's a couple observations I'd like to make:

First, once again a reminder that SPACE IS VAST, nor is it an ocean. This is prompted by an argument that a friend of mine here had with someone else (I won't list names but they know who they are). In this situation, a destroyer was lying passive about 12 light hours from a system primary, spying on enemy fleets in the system interior. Twelve light hours is about 29 times the distance between Jupiter and the Sun for RL comparison, or about 12,960,000,000 kilometers.

Really far out then right? And basically going to be impossible to detect? In comes player two with a giant fleet, and 'coincidentally' coming out of hyperspace within meters of the destroyer. Besides the fact that I consider that type of insane 'coincidence' to be horribly unfair and bad sportsmanship, this was an event that was basically impossible and only happened because player two did not understand the vast enormity of the area defined (remember that the volume of a sphere, or even surface area, is orders of magnitude greater than radius).

This brings me to my second point. If your system has two things:
1. A star.
2. A Sol type asteroid belt or better.

Then you have no reason to wage wars of expansion for resources. Sol alone has enough resources and energy to provide a standard of living for trillions of people in status that would make the RL United States ashamed of itself. You know why? Because space is big, and while most asteroids are small in size, collectively they put planets to shame in terms of resources contained. You don't even need a habitable planet. If you're an FTL capable nation, you should have the ability to build artificial habitats of large enough volume to support your population (and this opens up a lot of strategic benefits as well).

This in a way also opens a pet peeve of mine, the fact that very few players in II seem to have really fleshed out their nation's civilian side of things, and this is probably a contributing cause (and simultaneously a consequence of) to the fact that most FT RPs are just wars.

Nah, it's energy based usually. It just doesn't occur in realspace, or if it does it's either gridfire (best explanation I can think of atm is a sort of ZPE blast occuring at any given point in space) or displacing CAM (capsulated antimatter) across the space the target is going to occupy.That, and in the Cultureverse, EM penetrates hyperspace, so shooting your laser/ detonating your bomb in hyperspace and hitting a real-space target (Or the other way around) is a remarkably trivial matter

There's a few logical holes with it, of course (Where the fuck does the energy needed to triple the effect come from?), but that's true for more-or-less everything.cost effectiveness, depending on the type of missle the cost of producing an FTL drive for the missle could cost more than the actual missle itself.I'm reasonably certain that this applies IRL, too - where the jet engine on a cruise missile is its most expensive part. Well... Turns out we still build cruise missiles.

Of course, utterly regardless of this, it does fundamentally depend on how expensive (And massive) a given, made-up FTL unit would be.

And well... As it turns out, the 'Made-Up' part is rather important there. It's your choice, my choice, anyone else's choice.

And I intend to eventually develop my FTLi: the Applied Skepticism and Special Relativity Advanced Enforcement Pocket (ASSRAEP)How about you don't and just don't interact with people who have FTL-anythings? A much simpler method, and it doesn't require you to pull a catchall-solution out of your ass that - by virtue of overwanking the wanking - is even twinkier than any FTL could ever be?

Ooh I'm glad this got revived. There's a couple observations I'd like to make:

First, once again a reminder that SPACE IS VAST, nor is it an ocean. This is prompted by an argument that a friend of mine here had with someone else (I won't list names but they know who they are). In this situation, a destroyer was lying passive about 12 light hours from a system primary, spying on enemy fleets in the system interior. Twelve light hours is about 29 times the distance between Jupiter and the Sun for RL comparison, or about 12,960,000,000 kilometers.

Really far out then right? And basically going to be impossible to detect? In comes player two with a giant fleet, and 'coincidentally' coming out of hyperspace within meters of the destroyer. Besides the fact that I consider that type of insane 'coincidence' to be horribly unfair and bad sportsmanship, this was an event that was basically impossible and only happened because player two did not understand the vast enormity of the area defined (remember that the volume of a sphere, or even surface area, is orders of magnitude greater than radius).

This brings me to my second point. If your system has two things:
1. A star.
2. A Sol type asteroid belt or better.

Then you have no reason to wage wars of expansion for resources. Sol alone has enough resources and energy to provide a standard of living for trillions of people in status that would make the RL United States ashamed of itself. You know why? Because space is big, and while most asteroids are small in size, collectively they put planets to shame in terms of resources contained. You don't even need a habitable planet. If you're an FTL capable nation, you should have the ability to build artificial habitats of large enough volume to support your population (and this opens up a lot of strategic benefits as well).

This in a way also opens a pet peeve of mine, the fact that very few players in II seem to have really fleshed out their nation's civilian side of things, and this is probably a contributing cause (and simultaneously a consequence of) to the fact that most FT RPs are just wars.

While all of that is true, the premise is what I must disagree with. Future Tech, in my circle of roleplay is no longer about national conflict, one nation trying to take down the other. Now I can understand instant disagreement because that is what it appears to be on the forums. While this is true and it is overtly the message on the forums, the premise on MSN in regard to RP’s has changed significantly. The wars between nationstates is now a side to the greater drama of the characters arcs that FT nations have amongst the backdrop of a greater Galactic conflict, that is almost never ending. Good Verses Evil.

For example, the war currently between the Republic and myself is furthering the character arcs of Hera, the Seer, and a few others. Wars in Future Tech are no longer an opportunity to push the proverbial stats penis but are instead an opportunity to set a dramatic flair for your characters in an environment with stress and tension.

The space battles take a sideline, while the characters should be the primary focus.

So while yes, a Sol sized solar system, should be okay for an NS nation. FT has evolved past the normal levels of statistics used for a nation. For example, national populations for FT rarely dictate actual IC population but instead are used as a relative measuring stick for military strength. Normally, 1 Billion in population allows for one thousand capital ships. This generates that large scope and space theatres, and space opera type of scenario that players who play FT thirst after.

So, while your above points are correct, they’re not exactly fully relevant to what FT has become.

How about you don't and just don't interact with people who have FTL-anythings? A much simpler method, and it doesn't require you to pull a catchall-solution out of your ass that - by virtue of overwanking the wanking - is even twinkier than any FTL could ever be?

If you think FTLi is absurd, you have a lot to learn about FT.

If you think FTLi is absurd, you have a lot to learn about FT.

Indeed, FTLi is a complete necessity as it prevents FT falling into a state of Culture Type Wankiness.

FTLi* is a technology-denier. Would you accept a, say, shield-denying field? A weapon-denying field?

Same concept. Same stupidity.

If you find that one-upping $Technology is a more sensible course than simply not interacting with people whose technology base and/ or conduct annoys you, you're just sad.

* As it's usually done, I suppose. I don't really see issues with FTL-interdiction as an aspect of electronic warfare. But there's a bit of a difference between that and a 'Your shit, it's been ruined!' field.

I usually insist people explain to me how their FTLi works-- B5 jump points are specifically not affected by gravity, after all.

I don't accept generic FTLi.

That being said, my type of FTL is not useful for warping around in the middle of a battle anyways, so it's not a huge issue.

FTLi* is a technology-denier. Would you accept a, say, shield-denying field? A weapon-denying field?

Same concept. Same stupidity.

If you find that one-upping $Technology is a more sensible course than simply not interacting with people whose technology base and/ or conduct annoys you, you're just sad.

* As it's usually done, I suppose. I don't really see issues with FTL-interdiction as an aspect of electronic warfare. But there's a bit of a difference between that and a 'Your shit, it's been ruined!' field.

You need to look at it in the interests of the story arc. FTLi's became adopted by the community as the use of FTL became abused in roleplay. As such, it is a necessity. Though, I must make it known that if you complain over the absurdity of FTLi in FT, then it is the least of your problems.

It is there, because it serves an accepted purpose amongst players.

I accept FTLi fields if the user can explain how they work to my satisfaction. If it's just handwaved away to say "it blocks all faster than light travel regardless of means", I'll only accept it as a plot device rather than for military applications, and will not hesitate to call the other guy out on his plot holes if he continues to use his warp drives and FTL sensors.

FTLi* is a technology-denier. Would you accept a, say, shield-denying field? A weapon-denying field?

It's a technology-denier in the same way shields are. And it's a massively more necessary one given the discussion we've just been having.

Shields deny weapons (to a certain degree), FTLi denies FTL drives (to a certain degree).

Are you to ignore everyone who has energy shields then?

Mang, if we really want to be pedantic, armor denies weapons. Using your logic we'd have to ignore everyone who uses any sort of defense at all.

If you find that one-upping $Technology is a more sensible course than simply not interacting with people whose technology base and/ or conduct annoys you, you're just sad.

FTL is like the lynchpin of just about every single FT nation. You can't just ignore someone who uses it because you'll end up ignoring just about everyone.

FTLi is almost as common, for rather obvious reasons.

I accept FTLi fields if the user can explain how they work to my satisfaction. If it's just handwaved away to say "it blocks all faster than light travel regardless of means", I'll only accept it as a plot device rather than for military applications, and will not hesitate to call the other guy out on his plot holes if he continues to use his warp drives and FTL sensors.

Facehuggerian FTLi (the modern "lockdown field" - not to be confused with the original "lockdown field" which was a lot more vague and ill thought out) is actually a wide range of systems which do a lot of things. First it strengthens the barriers between normal space and other dimensions/planes, preventing things from entering or leaving hyperspace or the like within its area of effect.

This is a gross simplification, but it's vaguely like so: (H= hyperspace, N=normalspace, S=subspace. Substitute in "the warp" or your preferred otherspatial FTL method here.)

HHHHHHH
NNNNNNN
SSSSSSS

Switch the FTLi on and it goes to this:

HHHHHHH
-----
NNNNNNN
-----
SSSSSSS

This prevents you from using B5/culture/etc style "otherspace" drives. I can't exactly remember how SW hyperdrives work, but I'm pretty sure they accelerate into some sort of alternate superluminial dimension too. Either that or they're converted to tachyons or somesuch; either way, CF ships are propelled by gravity engines of rather heinous power, so getting too close to a Facehuggerian ship that's moving at full power with SW style hyperdrive is really tough anyway.

As you can see, to use otherspace FTL too close to the field, you'll have to pump in more energy into getting through than the CF capship is pumping into it to keep you from punching holes in spacetime. - It getting easier the further you are from the field source, and harder the closer you get due to inverse square law.

And then there's the second portion of the defense, the anti-folding measures. If you think of space as sheet of paper (as the folding analogy often goes), the anti-folding defense is like coating part of the paper with steel. It makes it massively more difficult to fold too close to the field. Again, a sufficiently powerful energy input can break the effect, but in practice, very few ships put out the kind of energy you'd need to overpower a CF capship with brute force. In fact, I can think of only three; C'tan's ships, Kanuckistan's battleplates, and Neo-Mekanta's darkships.

The final major defense is an active wormhole collapser. Generally, it uses the ship's grav engines and/or gravity weaponry to pinch that specific area of spacetime together until it's so small that nothing can possibly use it as an exit point.

Those three measures cover the lion's share of FTL methods that the CF designers have ICly encountered or heard about. If you've got a method that isn't covered, chances are you could use it willy-nilly until Facehuggerian engineers or tacticians came up with a countermeasure.

And if you can outpower the CF capship generating the field, you can do anything; but the fuel costs to do so would be pretty horrendous. Like I said, I'd bet on the Clarketech C'tan being like the only guys who could actually do so. Since he wanks even more than I do (and in a good way. Curse your natural talent, filthy necrons!)

It's a technology-denier in the same way shields are. And it's a massively more necessary one given the discussion we've just been having.

Shields deny weapons (to a certain degree), FTLi denies FTL drives (to a certain degree).

Are you to ignore everyone who has energy shields then?

Mang, if we really want to be pedantic, armor denies weapons. Using your logic we'd have to ignore everyone who uses any sort of defense at all.



FTL is like the lynchpin of just about every single FT nation. You can't just ignore someone who uses it because you'll end up ignoring just about everyone.

FTLi is almost as common, for rather obvious reasons.
actually I think Weapons are a weapon denier in that they kill the people using the weapons . . . so technically you need to ignore everyone who attacks you. So long as they stay pacifist, you can RP with em all you want.

Much of FT is reliant on people not being complete idiots. Don't pull broken stuff with FTL or FTLi ("I warp inside your ship", or "you can't FTL away from me but I can just jump away because it's my FTLi device"), don't make uber guns without expecting uber defences or the other way around, etc. Overall, with FT the diplomatic solution is the best way to go because warfare tends to go the route of idiocy way too easily if the wrong people get involved.

I remember when I was in a short lived thread with someone (won't say who) role playing a situation of sorts where we pitted our two vessels against each other. Now his was highly offensive in design and mine was highly defensive and relied heavily upon worm hole technology for weapons and defense systems.

Now my enemy switched on their FTLi which enveloped the entire system (I was rather fazed by this but said person seems to be a vetaren here and so get benefits by some kind of high population high tech perk or some such) So that rendered most of my weapons and defensive capabilities down to near zilch levels. I used gravity projectors to generate black holes so I could stay alive without being blown to smithereens and I announced that I was attempting to use the computer system utilised for calculating movements between particles and diemensions to essntially calculate my way through the interdiction field. I believe that when I announced this I as informed that breaking through an FTLi was impossible, sadly the thred died shortly after so I was never able to pursue this point.

So I see what you mean by sheilds being a technology inhibitor by way of weapons. But sheilds can be worn down, they aren't impossible to destory. Surely FTLi should be subject to the same kind of falliability?

And if you can outpower the CF capship generating the field, you can do anything; but the fuel costs to do so would be pretty horrendous. Like I said, I'd bet on the Clarketech C'tan being like the only guys who could actually do so. Since he wanks even more than I do (and in a good way. Curse your natural talent, filthy necrons!)

You've really perked me up after a fairly crummy day, thanks!

And yeah, I've a fair idea how such a thing would work, but I have no intention of doing so in character, because once that particular cat's out of the bag, people might work out how to counter it. As a result, when my warships see any sort of FTLi ahead they suck it up and slam on the breaks: that particular sneakyness is only ever going to be revealed in a full scale war or other serious emergency (and we'd rather no witnesses to such a thing survive).


As for FTLi, I'm fairly certain AI (being as he's actually quite a veteran player) knows all that; and personally, I'm not much a fan of 'generic FTLi' as a concept; though as it often serves a useful purpouse, I've always worked with it (hence the IC policy above) even where I don't think it actually should be a viable concept.

EDIT: Wait, *Eyes CF* What do you want? ;)

Surely FTLi should be subject to the same kind of falliability?

Mine is. Sorta. It gets exponentially easier the further you get from my ship; it's basically impossible to FTL a nuke into my bridge or FTL-ram* me unless you pump out truly rediculous energy yields, but summoning reinforcements or running away has much more leeway; generally, I'll go with what the plot wants in such instances.

Generally, like any defense, good (ie not stupid Iwin button) FTLi can be overpowered with brute force. How much brute force depends on numerous factors.

*The process of accelerating in real space, then FTLing and popping out of FTL meters away from the target. See also: Portal "speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out."

So I see what you mean by sheilds being a technology inhibitor by way of weapons. But sheilds can be worn down, they aren't impossible to destory. Surely FTLi should be subject to the same kind of falliability?
Well, that is an interesting concept. Being able to break through an FTLi field. I can say though that a few of us are working on concepts that would be able to at least diminish the effects of FTLi. It's time the hegemony of the FTLi comes to an end. Who's with me?

Viva La Revolution! *fist in air*

And hi, CF. Long time no see.

Wow I actually got someone to firstly respond to a post of mine and then agree *breaks down into tears* "I'd like to thank eveyone who supported me and got me this award!"

Anyway...

I cannot see how an FTLi works in the first place, and I have never been given a description that I find "realistic" enough, even withen the loose and highly abused principles of FT "realism". If someone says their FTLi disrupts the surroudning space by inducing currents then so what? A ship can boost up the technology to either project a "bubble" of slipspace around itself or just use more energy to rip open a hole into a different universe. Just takes more energy. In my case it was just using computer simulations to accomodate for any changes rather than jumping through and getting changed into swiss cheese Picasso style... But no, the iron vague rule of FTLi seems to be one of those untouchable areas that people can't discuss...

Shall we put an end to that? I'd say you could easily overpower and FTLi, and if the enemy increases their FTL'i in response then... well... what happens when you turn a few ripples next to a ship into a whirlpool? *screeching metal and explosions* suicide...

I cannot see how an FTLi works in the first place, and I have never been given a description that I find "realistic" enough, even withen the loose and highly abused principles of FT "realism".

It's best not too look to deeply into such things. That way lies madness and disappointment. It'd be like seeing Cthulhu and My Little Pony having sex.

If someone says their FTLi disrupts the surroudning space by inducing currents then so what? A ship can boost up the technology to either project a "bubble" of slipspace around itself or just use more energy to rip open a hole into a different universe. Just takes more energy. In my case it was just using computer simulations to accomodate for any changes rather than jumping through and getting changed into swiss cheese Picasso style... But no, the iron vague rule of FTLi seems to be one of those untouchable areas that people can't discuss...

That sounds more like a flaw in the particular FTLi system than FTLi in general. You should've gotten through, since that's a pretty elegant solution to that particular FTLi method.

Shall we put an end to that? I'd say you could easily overpower and FTLi, and if the enemy increases their FTL'i in response then... well... what happens when you turn a few ripples next to a ship into a whirlpool? *screeching metal and explosions* suicide...

You kinda lost me here. Can you repeat that more clearly please?

Well, for Star Wars hyperdrive, it's simple enough. Computers have a safety lock where they can't get too close to stars or planets or else they'll crash and die. They use gravitational sensors to detect incoming mass shadows in hyperspace and conk out the hyperdrive when they get too close. Interdictor cruisers operate on this principle by creating artificial gravity wells to fool ships into prematurely exiting hyperspace or refusing to enter.

Of course, it's possible to disable the safety locks, but who would want to risk getting splattered?

Well, for Star Wars hyperdrive, it's simple enough. Computers have a safety lock where they can't get too close to stars or planets or else they'll crash and die. They use gravitational sensors to detect incoming mass shadows in hyperspace and conk out the hyperdrive when they get too close. Interdictor cruisers operate on this principle by creating artificial gravity wells to fool ships into prematurely exiting hyperspace or refusing to enter.

Of course, it's possible to disable the safety locks, but who would want to risk getting splattered?

Aye, I knew that. The question was whether SW FTL works by boosting the ship into some alternate "hyperspace" dimension (and hence would end up being stopped by my FTLi) or whether it's some sort of tachyon thing ala what I read somewhere on the SWTC, in which case I'd have to rely upon my drive fields to prevent hyperspace ramming.

Thanks for the info though, CW. :)

And even then, a crazy enough pilot might be willing to risk engine burnout to escape you. SW hyperdrive is pretty much a linear brute-force FTL, after all.

I believe there's also mention of hypespace sustainers, but I'd better check Wookie for more information...

Well, that is an interesting concept. Being able to break through an FTLi field. I can say though that a few of us are working on concepts that would be able to at least diminish the effects of FTLi. It's time the hegemony of the FTLi comes to an end. Who's with me?

Viva La Revolution! *fist in air*

And hi, CF. Long time no see.

Seconded. FTLi is fun and all (I find it mostly works for play balance purposes), but it does get rather annoying. Plus, story-wise--new superweapons are always fun.

This prevents you from using B5/culture/etc style "otherspace" drives. I can't exactly remember how SW hyperdrives work, but I'm pretty sure they accelerate into some sort of alternate superluminial dimension too....[etc]
You mention several times that your ships are pumping power into something to prevent people from entering realspace from otherspace. What, exactly, are you pumping power into (power presumably being heat/energy) and how does it create these barriers?

If the answer is "whatever the people who use otherspace drives pump power into", that only raises further questions. <.<


And then there's the second portion of the defense, the anti-folding measures. If you think of space as sheet of paper (as the folding analogy often goes), the anti-folding defense is like coating part of the paper with steel. ....
Analogies break down after a while, but yeah, I can sort of see how this would work. "Folding" spacetime would require the user of foldspace tech to output the approximate gravitational signature of several solar masses compressed into a point with negative diameter, so I consider it an order of magnitude more improbable than tearing a hole into some alternate dimension. Anyway, preventing folding could be done with some decent gravitics.


The final major defense is an active wormhole collapser. Generally, it uses the ship's grav engines and/or gravity weaponry to pinch that specific area of spacetime together until it's so small that nothing can possibly use it as an exit point.
And this doesn't crush any ships in the area into their constituent subatomic particles? :P Seriously though, since wormholes (at least in V-N's continuity) can only be created at natural jump points, which exist due to the gravitational effects of large objects such as stars and black holes, any artificial gravitational field is going to mess those up majorly. Even those who use artificial wormhole tech shouldn't get near grav drives. And any fleet commander whose tactics rely on warping in at point blank range is a dumbass and not a tactical genius as the user might try to claim, because space. is. big.


Ok, sorry, I got a little carried away there, but yeah.

Analogies break down after a while, but yeah, I can sort of see how this would work. "Folding" spacetime would require the user of foldspace tech to output the approximate gravitational signature of several solar masses compressed into a point with negative diameter, so I consider it an order of magnitude more improbable than tearing a hole into some alternate dimension. Anyway, preventing folding could be done with some decent gravitics.

Unfortunately, if you try telling a Colonial from the Twelve Colonies of Kobol that, they'll say anywhere from 'huh?' to 'frak you, you scientific eggsucker!'

In otherwords, longwinded technobabble really doesn't cut it for some FT'ers. Some of us simply like 'this happens, this doesn't happen' and so it does.

Unfortunately, if you try telling a Colonial from the Twelve Colonies of Kobol that, they'll say anywhere from 'huh?' to 'frak you, you scientific eggsucker!'

In otherwords, longwinded technobabble really doesn't cut it for some FT'ers. Some of us simply like 'this happens, this doesn't happen' and so it does.

That's why I said "I consider...." instead of "It is...." -- it's one of those things that works as long as you don't think about it too much. I just consider it higher-tech than, say, tearing a hole into hyperspace, simply because it contradicts some things we know about reality whereas for all we know there may actually be a dimension called hyperspace where you can travel 30,000,000 km/sec.

Still, "fold" is a neat verb. "The battlestar folded in a few AU off the asteroid belt." "We'll have to fold a few hundred missiles over to the main station while we hit the starships with our main fleet." Et cetera. It's fun to say.

My future FTLi could be totally defeated if you either:

1) Convince the human crew Special Relativity is a lie (memetic warfare)

2) Hack into an AI to remove all entries of Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal among others.

As for how it will work... there is no technobabble at all. It is intended to be total bull and unscientific fluff like The Warp because there is no point in trying to make sense of stuff like this. It simply involves a small pocket of altered reality through mass psychic means, where skeptic beliefs can be channeled to deny the phenomena all forms of FTL depend upon, with a high energy cost.

Thus, just like Solarian FTL tends to be impractical without at least one person crewing the flagship, its FTLi won't work in fully automated ships. And they have lots of good reasons to avoid FTL travel whenever possible.

Like hinted, I don't RP its existence as of now, and I will take my time to develop it.

lol. I know. I'm just not fond of technobabble myself, mainly because it gives me headaches.

You mention several times that your ships are pumping power into something to prevent people from entering realspace from otherspace. What, exactly, are you pumping power into (power presumably being heat/energy) and how does it create these barriers?

If the answer is "whatever the people who use otherspace drives pump power into", that only raises further questions. <.<

The idea is that the power is going into reinforcing these barriers. Somewhat like that electrically hardening armor that they're looking into, but the analogy doesn't fit perfectly.

As for what those barriers are, I could run off a large line of mostly meaningless terms, but it boils down to concentrated pseudoscience. How I generate them? It's a shiny metal thing. It's got a couple of blinking lights, and it spins. Oh, and it makes a funny worbling noise when it's on.

If you'd like more than that, I'm afraid your standards are far, far too high for the sort of SF I write. Or the sort of SF that's on most of NS. Rather than go with the Trek paradigm, I prefer to not describe the actual pseudoscience behind anything I do, simply because I know I'll most likely get it wrong.

Instead, I simply describe what it does, not how it does it. That is to say, a death ray causes death, inconvenient physics be damned.

Then again, I don't have any problem disregarding even really fundamental physical laws to get what I want.

Good thing I'm not expecting to RP with you in any fashion where such tech would become meaningful to the story, since I'm guessing you're a lot more stringent about such things than I am. :p

Analogies break down after a while, but yeah, I can sort of see how this would work. "Folding" spacetime would require the user of foldspace tech to output the approximate gravitational signature of several solar masses compressed into a point with negative diameter, so I consider it an order of magnitude more improbable than tearing a hole into some alternate dimension. Anyway, preventing folding could be done with some decent gravitics.

Generally, most foldspace drives find some vague and unmentioned way to cheat that requirement. If you can't accept that sort of thing, you must ignore almost everyone, since just about every FT NSer ignores factors like that in favor or establishing a national character and techbase. :p

And this doesn't crush any ships in the area into their constituent subatomic particles? :P

It does, actually. The drive field of a ship is both a defense and a weapon. Anything in the path of a closing wormhole is squashed. Really tiny like.

As for how my travel wormholes aren't broken by my drives? I figure it's a manner of energy. I put more into keeping the thing open than the drive field exerts on local spacetime in general operation.

Barring that: "Kick reason to the curb and do the impossible!"

^Which is my answer to any inconvenient laws of physics that get in the way, in case I wasn't clear. I'm a shamelessly soft-SF nation and I care not for Einstein rolling in his grave; hell, I've hooked the bastard up to a turbine for unlimited power! (And don't even mention the enslaved carebears.)

but it boils down to concentrated pseudoscience

Meanwhile, my FTLi will be concentrated skepticism, augmented by Einstein, Newton and Pascal laws being regurgitated over and over in the minds of psykers, striking against the pseudoscience that makes FTL works in the same way a Daemonhunter strikes against the laxity that spawns Chaos.

Therefore it'll be more awesome than yours :P

*Edit: it may also be bypassed by convincing such psykers that the laws they are trying to psychically enforce go against the very fact they are psychic.

Meanwhile, my FTLi will be concentrated skepticism, augmented by Einstein, Newton and Pascal laws being regurgitated over and over in the minds of psykers, striking against the pseudoscience that makes FTL works in the same way a Daemonhunter strikes against the laxity that spawns Chaos.

Therefore it'll be more awesome than yours :P

*Edit: it may also be bypassed by convincing such psykers that the laws they are trying to psychically enforce go against the very fact they are psychic.

The great Facehugger/Communes war will not be fought with guns or ships... But with pr0ns.

I never got the whole FTLi thing, sure you want to stop people from popping nukes into your ship but that's easily solved by making your energy shields stop FTL attacks. In terms of space battles why stop your enemy from running away, if they do that it means you've won! You can use it to force engagements in deep space, but there's nothing there worth fighting over so why bother? Sure you want to keep your planet/station/whatever from being damaged, but a lot FTL doesn't work on or close to planets anyway, if they did you wouldn't need spaceships and thus no space battles. That means you can intercept the enemy fleet at a distance away from the object that needs defending that will be far enough away to avoid significant chances of stray shots or enemy fire from hitting said object. And in soft sci-fi most planets or orbitals or whatnot worth defending will have super-heavy shields which reduces the risk of damage without full, intentional bombardment to even lower levels.

Now you can use it to stop people from fleeing, I just see that as far more useful fitting the needs of police work than on the battlefield.

The idea is that the power is going into reinforcing these barriers. Somewhat like that electrically hardening armor that they're looking into, but the analogy doesn't fit perfectly.

As for what those barriers are, .....

[etc.]

..... Good thing I'm not expecting to RP with you in any fashion where such tech would become meaningful to the story, since I'm guessing you're a lot more stringent about such things than I am. :p

Truthfully, I've got nothing against soft-SF and the Rule of Cool (which is, when everything else is thrown by the wayside, what this really runs on). And if my ships ever ran into yours while they were putting up an FTLi field, I would not drag out my eighth grade physics textbook to point out how impossible it is. Nor would I make up some technobabble about a new FTL I developed that allows me to bypass your fields. I would say ok, CF doesn't want me using my FTL in the area. I'll have to use X natural jump point Y light-minutes away to get into the system instead. And I'll assume that CF also isn't capable of using FTL or FTL-comms/sensors unless these exceptions are explicitly stated, or unless the FTL fields are briefly turned off and then turned back on whenever CF's ship wants to move.

As for how my travel wormholes aren't broken by my drives? I figure it's a manner of energy. I put more into keeping the thing open than the drive field exerts on local spacetime in general operation.
I was actually referring to your own ships. If the gravitic drives are powerful enough to crush anything that enters the field within a certain radius, why don't they also crush the ships generating them? That's always bothered me. I assumed that the shields prevented the ships from being destroyed by their own grav drives, so that if shields fail, the ship is at risk of being crushed by their own engine. No idea if this is true though.

I only mention this because the way some people (presumably not you) use gravitic fields makes them rather boring to work with: All of your missiles get crushed by our grav fields. Your ships will be destroyed if they enter our grav fields. You can't gain targeting solutions on us because we have grav fields. Yet we can fire all of our missiles from our ships in the middle of our grav fields and obtain perfectly accurate locks on everything you have because.... uh..... [some sci-fi author] said so. Not enough people RP the obvious downsides of maintaining gravitic fields that powerful around oneself.

I still remember the gravwank drives capable of accelerating from 0 to 0.9999...c in 1 second without any use of FTL.

Maybe not even Cultureverse had stuff like that

Truthfully, I've got nothing against soft-SF and the Rule of Cool (which is, when everything else is thrown by the wayside, what this really runs on). And if my ships ever ran into yours while they were putting up an FTLi field, I would not drag out my eighth grade physics textbook to point out how impossible it is. Nor would I make up some technobabble about a new FTL I developed that allows me to bypass your fields. I would say ok, CF doesn't want me using my FTL in the area. I'll have to use X natural jump point Y light-minutes away to get into the system instead. And I'll assume that CF also isn't capable of using FTL or FTL-comms/sensors unless these exceptions are explicitly stated, or unless the FTL fields are briefly turned off and then turned back on whenever CF's ship wants to move.

Generally, yeah. If my FTLi is up, I can't use my own FTL. If I want to tactically redeploy, I drop 'em and then raise them again.

My FTL communications are exempt because they rely upon something like, but not exactly like quantum entanglement. (My old FTL comms relied upon QE to a tee, but the new ones are a similar yet different network that's wholly fictional, to give me more creative control.)

I was actually referring to your own ships. If the gravitic drives are powerful enough to crush anything that enters the field within a certain radius, why don't they also crush the ships generating them? That's always bothered me. I assumed that the shields prevented the ships from being destroyed by their own grav drives, so that if shields fail, the ship is at risk of being crushed by their own engine. No idea if this is true though.

Aye, if the internal anti-grav devices fail, the ship collapses quite handily if the ship's moving.

The anti-grav devices that keep the ship from tearing itself apart with its own engines, are also consequently amongst the most redundant systems, for obvious reasons.

Generally, I don't think about those failing because a catastrophic failure of such a redudant subsystem is like every lightbulb across North America burning out at once.

I only mention this because the way some people (presumably not you) use gravitic fields makes them rather boring to work with: All of your missiles get crushed by our grav fields. Your ships will be destroyed if they enter our grav fields. You can't gain targeting solutions on us because we have grav fields. Yet we can fire all of our missiles from our ships in the middle of our grav fields and obtain perfectly accurate locks on everything you have because.... uh..... [some sci-fi author] said so. Not enough people RP the obvious downsides of maintaining gravitic fields that powerful around oneself.

Mine are a lot more... restrained then that. It's more like so:

"You enter the field. You notice a slight tug of gravity upon your ship. You fire X missiles."

"The ship crumples X-Y missiles like tin cans, but due to limitations in the drive field, it cannot destroy the others before impact."

I RP it as the field can only exert a lot of force in so many places at once.

In terms of defense, it's a lot more like a big point defense mechanism than an actual shield. So I was being a bit disingenious when I offhandedly referred to the drivefield as a shield. :p

Like all point defenses, it can be overwhelmed. This gets even easier if the ship's moving, like they usually are, since my grav emitters/impellers/moss-covered three-handled goozles can only do one thing at once, and one pushing the ship through space can't be used to swat down approaching ships or missiles.

Like hinted, I don't RP its existence as of now, and I will take my time to develop it.

Presumably this would be however long it takes you to raise a sufficient number of psykers ignorant of the fact that scientific theory describes reality, not the other way around, and that if people are running about violating special relativity, clearly the theory needs refining.

That said, one of the more fundamental issues with reconciling relativity and FTL ("Causality, Relativity, FTL, pick two" see Atomic Rocket for more details (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3v.html)) doesn't actually apply in NS. My people have seen entire nations' history change around them (horrible retcons, in other words) nations disappear completely (timing out) reappear, and pop into existance out of nowhere, and have means of getting into the past with their FTL and changing things around (as is anyone with 40K-ish warp drive, though for the most part they can't control such) if they really want to.

You need to look at it in the interests of the story arc. FTLi's became adopted by the community as the use of FTL became abused in roleplay. As such, it is a necessity. Though, I must make it known that if you complain over the absurdity of FTLi in FT, then it is the least of your problems.Oh, I know why it's there. The 'Why' being 'An IC technology to prevent OOC bullshittery'.

This, as you might've gathered, is something I consider silly at best. If I've issues with the way a player conducts himself, I don't invent some technology, I poke him with a TG, and/ or cease bothering.It's a technology-denier in the same way shields are.By a shield-denying field, I meant an effect akin to FTLi, except on shields. "In this volume, your shields don't work." Which is the proper analogy.

Granted, your own FTLi does indeed appear to be superficially similar to shields - it can be broken by throwing enough energy at it. I see a little issue insofar as it does thus no longer serve its ooc-purpose of preventing, err, 'Stupid Bullshit', but rather becomes a part of spacedy one-upmansship and escalating energy densities, but... Oh well.

Of course, the 'Burn through' option always struck me as silly, anyway. Unless it takes, say, 1E27 times more energy to burn through, it isn't going to have a particularly impressive range. Not a problem when you have it as a plotdevice, certainly, but...FTL is like the lynchpin of just about every single FT nation. You can't just ignore someone who uses it because you'll end up ignoring just about everyone.You're missing the point. It's about the conduct of the player. You know, for example the difference between hopping around, untouchable, and throwing hyperspace'd missiles at planets to cause extinction events for giggles, or, well, I don't know... Not.

I fail to believe that such poor conduct is limited to FTL - consequently, I fail to see the point of FTLi when it merely shifts the amount of sillyness going on to elsewhere.

Sure - not using FTLi, I open myself up to - for example - having my Orbital blown up with remarkable ease. There's of course always the MAD option, but that should technically cut down on the aggressiveness the arthros display...

Meh. With or without, a remarkably improbable leap of faith is required either way, I suppose.

You kinda lost me here. Can you repeat that more clearly please?

Simpler terms... sorry I'm prone to overly used analogies.

A FTLi in most cases works by generating gravatic anomalies in the surrounding space, just enough to make any FTL trips dangerous I.E. You hit that center of gravity, your ship twists, is either damaged or is destroyed fantastically. If you employed methods to counteract this form of FTLi then the other player would (logically) increase the strength of the FTLi, which results in greater gravtic amonalies which are also more powerful. If you did that then surely the user would be in a greater chance of hurting themselves with unstable gravity blobs whizzing around their ship.

So "logically" that kind of FTLi can only be used so far or else it will destroy the user.

A bit like nuclear weapons, if you use one to powerful you could in fact blow up yourself.

I hope you get the whirpool analogy now, or at least "get me". :D

Oh, I know why it's there. The 'Why' being 'An IC technology to prevent OOC bullshittery'.

This, as you might've gathered, is something I consider silly at best. If I've issues with the way a player conducts himself, I don't invent some technology, I poke him with a TG, and/ or cease bothering. By a shield-denying field, I meant an effect akin to FTLi, except on shields. "In this volume, your shields don't work." Which is the proper analogy.

You act like that was never tried. FTL wank become far too gave a danger in FT, and it also become a significant defence for those who RP in ruling large tracts of territory.

Despite what you say, the community holds a different opinion in FT and rather enjoys FTLi since most Sci-fi has them in some form or fashion. Star Wars Interdictors for example, or an ST dampening field.

Granted, your own FTLi does indeed appear to be superficially similar to shields - it can be broken by throwing enough energy at it. I see a little issue insofar as it does thus no longer serve its ooc-purpose of preventing, err, 'Stupid Bullshit', but rather becomes a part of spacedy one-upmansship and escalating energy densities, but... Oh well.

Well, FT is not the only genre guilty of this. Modern Tech is guilty of the one upmanship as well, it is what happens when people get slightly competitive, and you're playing a game with age ranges from twelve to ancient. Your expectations on the community are I feel a little unfair, as many people, just like yourself has, must learn.

As full the escalating energy densities, yes you are correct, but in Modern Tech that is relative to escalating carrier number of shell yields from your battle tank.

Of course, the 'Burn through' option always struck me as silly, anyway. Unless it takes, say, 1E27 times more energy to burn through, it isn't going to have a particularly impressive range. Not a problem when you have it as a plotdevice, certainly, but...You're missing the point. It's about the conduct of the player. You know, for example the difference between hopping around, untouchable, and throwing hyperspaced missiles at planets to cause extinction events for giggles, or, well, I don't know... Not.

I would disagree, it's not about the conduct of the player, though that is important, but rather in a community where players unknown to each other make IC contact frequently, it is instead about the interests of the roleplay.
For that, there must be certain averages employed throughout otherwise there would be chaos as there was in the days of 03/04 *shudders*.

I fail to believe that such poor conduct is limited to FTL - consequently, I fail to see the point of FTLi when it merely shifts the amount of sillyness going on to elsewhere.

The difference is that silliness with FTL tends to be instantaneous, whereas, other silliness can be removed away by the player in game and it can be sorted out quickly. Hence the reason for FTLi.

You act like that was never tried. FTL wank become far too gave a danger in FT, and it also become a significant defence for those who RP in ruling large tracts of territory.I repeat - I'm aware. The reasons aren't debated here. The solution is - me being the proponent of a solution that doesn't require an extra dose of tech-solely-for-ooc.Despite what you say, the community holds a different opinion in FT and rather enjoys FTLi since most Sci-fi has them in some form or fashion. Star Wars Interdictors for example, or an ST dampening field.Yeah, so? I've never claimed to speak in the name of someone or something other than myself.Well, FT is not the only genre guilty of this. Modern Tech is guilty of the one upmanship as well, it is what happens when people get slightly competitive, and you're playing a game with age ranges from twelve to ancient. Your expectations on the community are I feel a little unfair, as many people, just like yourself has, must learn.Of course - though I'm not entirely clear on how I'm expecting anything. What I'm saying - or rather, asking - is, simply, Why bother? There's easier ways around it.As full the escalating energy densities, yes you are correct, but in Modern Tech that is relative to escalating carrier number of shell yields from your battle tank.Yes, well... Of course. But what has MT to do with it? I'm aware it has similar issues - I've not, however, critisized FT (This here nation being quite twinky SciFi), I've merely wondered why one would bother with making up technologies for, err, essentially, dealing with (Competitive) wanking. If this was a thread about MT-stuffs, and someone had brought up the concept of, oh, I don't know... an impenetrable missileshield to protect oneself from ICBM spam, I'd ask essentially the same question.I would disagree, it's not about the conduct of the player, though that is important, but rather in a community where players unknown to each other make IC contact frequently, it is instead about the interests of the roleplay.
For that, there must be certain averages employed throughout otherwise there would be chaos as there was in the days of 03/04 *shudders*.Quite honestly, I don't see the difference between the two.The difference is that silliness with FTL tends to be instantaneous, whereas, other silliness can be removed away by the player in game and it can be sorted out quickly. Hence the reason for FTLi.Everything is 'Instantaneous (As in, occurs the moment it's posted), I'm afraid.

I repeat - I'm aware. The reasons aren't debated here. The solution is - me being the proponent of a solution that doesn't require an extra dose of tech-solely-for-ooc.

And I told you, the tech had to be developed firstly, because it is in most sci-fi genres and so is liked by players, and secondly, that many players come from many backgrounds and ages, and so the tech fits nicely into the human condition which is experienced on this forum. You're speaking of ideals, whereas the community has settled on a practical solution which works pretty well.

Yeah, so? I've never claimed to speak in the name of someone or something other than myself.Of course - though I'm not entirely clear on how I'm expecting anything. What I'm saying - or rather, asking - is, simply, Why bother? There's easier ways around it.

What's easier than raising an field which prevents wankiness? You instantly remove that opportunity and it's a few words in a post consistent with most sci-fi genres. Easy peasy.

Yes, well... Of course. But what has MT to do with it? I'm aware it has similar issues - I've not, however, critisized FT (This here nation being quite twinky SciFi), I've merely wondered why one would bother with making up technologies for, err, essentially, dealing with (Competitive) wanking. If this was a thread about MT-stuffs, and someone had brought up the concept of, oh, I don't know... an impenetrable missileshield to protect oneself from ICBM spam, I'd ask essentially the same question.Quite honestly, I don't see the difference between the two.

Uhm, this is nationstates, where you develop your own nation and outplay your own creativity on the forums. You make up technologies as it is a part of your creativity, just as you develop characters.

To be honest, I think you're taking to narrow an approach to a genre which in itself can be infinite due to the universal playground in which it operates.

[/quote]Everything is 'Instantaneous (As in, occurs the moment it's posted), I'm afraid.[/QUOTE]

Inside the scope of the roleplay. I thought that would be a given, but since your tone has been so hostile, I'm not surprised that you ventured for such a cheap comment.

FTL moves in an RP are instant, whereas a railgun is not. A Rauilgun wank can be sorted out easier than an FTL wank as it often requires post deletion, a heavy step most players are not willing to make.

By "Instant" it was obviously meant the time it takes for said shot to reach the target, not when the post takes effect. Even lasers at 30 light seconds takes that many seconds to reach the target. FTL shots arrive "instantly" in the terms of the RP timeline and makes it unfair to try to dodge them. FTL missiles are weapons that bypass the players defenses and basically calls damages by stating the weapon gets to ignore sheilds, defenses, and even outer hull and there is no way they can take evasive maneuvers to stop them.

Now, I will be the first to admit my Grav Torps can obtain FTL speeds but to hit the target they have to re-enter Real Space, the speed is used to make long shots shorter and not to bypass a ship's defenses. I use my sheilds to interfere with FTL attacks. I do not use FTLi directly. What I mean by that statement is if the ship's nav system detects the gravity well of my Singularity Reactors and shuts down, that is not FTLi, that is their sensors taking safety protocols into effect and I cannot do anything about it other than turn off my reactors. The gravity is contained within the reactors but it's shadow is not. It is a side effect of my reactors, a balance factor that makes it so I cannot cloak or hide unless it is using a larger gravity well than what my core produces.

FTLi was initially developed to make FTL attacks useless and only covered ships. Some people decided to make the feilds larger but did not figure out how much energy it would actually take to operate the larger field. I have seen FTLi fields that are claimed to be Ly in size...

It is my opinion FTLi should be drive type specific. There should be one for Wormholes, one for Hyperspace A (SW), one for Hyperspace B (Bab 5), one for Space Fold, one for... I think you get the point. It makes no sense for someone to possess a single FTLi device that affects multiple FTL systems since each operates upon different concepts.

To me, it seems that people are missing the greatest threat to the existence of FTLi fields.

Not everyone uses the same method of faster-than-light travel.

So to make a comprehensive FTLi field, you have to develop something that is simultaneously capable of inhibiting wormhole generation (hyperspace and the like), every alternate reality known to the NSVerse, manipulations of the fourth dimension (instantaneous movement between two points in the three dimensional universe by utilizing the fourth dimension), time travel, and whatever the hell that physics-raping crap Star Trek-style "Warp" drives are.

Not only that, but you have to project a field such as that over a wide area so as to cover either your territory or your fleet deployments.

Plus have the necessary energy to power your main drives, maneuver drives, life support, inertial dampeners, communications, active scanners, passive sensors, and your OWN faster-than-light system.

And that's all before you get to your planet killing weapons of penis enlargement.


That said - it's a mechanic to drive the plot. For those followers of SchlockMercenary, when Teraport technology became widespread anyone who didn't isntantly develop and employ a teraport denial device got a thermonuclear device to the face. If we were all capable of strapping a hyperdrive to a proton-antiproton conversion warhead and sending it at that troublesome nation's capital, we would.

Thus, in the interest of roleplay, FTLi is necessary unless expressly agreed upon by the participating parties.

Here's something interesting, I'd like the opinion of the FT community on this.

I tend to design my ships around a "harder" version of SF than most. My ships can't accelerate at thousands of Gs, they can only accelerate at what the crew (which, admittedly, are trained to sustain high amounts of G forces, strapped into heavily padded crew modules, and then medicated to lessen the effects of Gs) can handle. Sci-fi staple "star fighters" are laughed at by my brass, as something like that would be targetted and get hit with a laser or coilgun lightseconds before it became a threat. Engagement ranges are set at light minutes at minimum. You get the idea.

However, because the vast majority of NS FT seems to exist in the "softer" aspects of sci-fi, and indeed a lot of the good writers that I've wanted to participate with use the softer side, I want to inject my harder SF fleet into the softer SF threads.

Would a stricter adherence to the laws of physics be a weakness or a strength in most RPs, do you think? I can see where it would be a strength (your ships able to engage the enemy at longer distances than the enemy is designed to fight at, nigh invulnerability to manned strike craft) and where it would be a weakness (relying on massed missile and kinetic strikes for offensive weaponry, limited shields, and not being able to out-accelerate the enemy).

Would most NS RPers even accept a fleet that worked in such a way?

Am I just that crazy guy who laughs at turbolasers?

To me, it seems that people are missing the greatest threat to the existence of FTLi fields.

[...]

And that's all before you get to your planet killing weapons of penis enlargement.

I was under the impression that's why so many people use gravitational shielding of some variety. Using the example of FTL missiles, the shields would deflect (X% of) things coming in from hyperspace, crunch (X% of) anything coming in through wormholes, make folding space X% more difficult, et cetera. Grav shields seem designed to prevent attacks of that sort. But yeah, the number of ways to travel faster than light mean that some FTLi systems will have a few loopholes.


That said - it's a mechanic to drive the plot. For those followers of SchlockMercenary, when Teraport technology became widespread anyone who didn't isntantly develop and employ a teraport denial device got a thermonuclear device to the face. If we were all capable of strapping a hyperdrive to a proton-antiproton conversion warhead and sending it at that troublesome nation's capital, we would.

Thus, in the interest of roleplay, FTLi is necessary unless expressly agreed upon by the participating parties.

Well, that and people often use hyperspace or slipspace or whatever as just another plot device without considering any limitations. In your example, the enemy capital would be located on a planet, which generates a strong gravitational/magnetic field, which deflects objects traveling in hyperspace, so the conversion warhead could easily miss. Besides, how are you keeping those antiprotons in the warhead without them exploding instantly upon coming into contact with regular matter? Not enough people ask that question. :P

Here's something interesting, I'd like the opinion of the FT community on this.

[....]

Would most NS RPers even accept a fleet that worked in such a way?

Am I just that crazy guy who laughs at turbolasers?

Seems reasonable to me. I'd RP with it.

If engagement ranges are at light-minutes, would you have some kind of quantum communication to gain targeting data, or would you be relying on projections based on lightspeed communication?

There are some methods of FTLi that would work on a great many different things, as noted earlier in this thread.

For example, one that simply strengthens dimensional boundaries in a local region would stop a great many drives, from B5 jump drives to Star Trek warp drives from working, as well as also screwing over people who like to use those shields that divert a portion of an attack to nearby dimensions. On the other hand, it would do little to stop point to point drives like an Alderson drive-- though, as those can only be used at a certain point in a solar system, this is generally alright.

There is no need to produce an FTLi system for every single specific drive system used by anyone out there; there are few enough types that one can paint with a wider brush.

Would a stricter adherence to the laws of physics be a weakness or a strength in most RPs, do you think?With the exception of one of my own puppets, I'm not really aware of any players that really limit the ranges of their weapons in that respect; energy weapons in NS have an effective range of whatever they can hit at C; even turbolasers and the like.

Also, agreed with you on the gods part. Entity claiming to be a god (40K's warp gods, for instance), sure. Actual deities, not so much.


What's the difference? :wink:

"God" is about the vaguest label there is, afterall.


FTLi* is a technology-denier. Would you accept a, say, shield-denying field? A weapon-denying field?


FTLi creates geography in space, in a setting where you can easily have, or have to deal with an enemy that has, infinite, instantaneous mobility.

Without FTLi, you can jump in, dump missiles, and jump out without risk of retaliation. You can FTL-ram. You can do all kinds of cheap things that undermine tactical depth - you go from a battle of maneuver and distance, drama and tactics, to dropping a battle fleet in orbit around your enemy's homeworld with no warning and trading broadsides point-blank.


I usually insist people explain to me how their FTLi works-- B5 jump points are specifically not affected by gravity, after all.

I don't accept generic FTLi.

That being said, my type of FTL is not useful for warping around in the middle of a battle anyways, so it's not a huge issue.


I actually accept that FTLi operates as advertised(generally, unless the FTLi is only intended to stop specific kinds of FTL or something, then I might walk through it, or not, but I typically run around a system at sublight with a long jump-recharge cycle time anyway), despite using an exotic, uncertainty-based drive that wouldn't be hindered in the slightest by most FTLi out there. Because people shouldn't be penalised for an inability to craft technobabble.


My own FTLi is also rather inflexible(I keep having to tell my allies, "No, I can't open a hole to let you in/out; it's either on or off), and propagates at half lightspeed out from the source, with even the Battleplates being limited to a one lighthour radius, tho I've only ever deployed it out a few lightminutes, iirc.

I actually employ very good, very expensive strategic FTLi to enforce a sense of territorial depth - if you want to invade, you have to take the slipgates and fight your way in, or disable the FTLi generators somehow, not just FTL into orbit of my capital.

Which is important, because I only have 10 capital ships, and more than 10 major systems. :D


Oh, I know why it's there. The 'Why' being 'An IC technology to prevent OOC bullshittery'.


I like to think of FTLi as another feather in the hat of the writer, another tool for the strategist - it counterbalances the mobility of FTLi(and mobility is a military asset, no matter what anyone wants to say), and offers additional depth to tactics and story.

And frankly, I think IC counterbalances are better than giant plot-holes that everyone OOCly agrees to ignore


Here's something interesting, I'd like the opinion of the FT community on this.

<snip>

Would most NS RPers even accept a fleet that worked in such a way?

Am I just that crazy guy who laughs at turbolasers?


Why not? Sounds fun, tho with the higher acceleration of softer scifi ships, your engagement envelope would shrink accordingly. And I already play the "only lightspeed delay and countermeasures keeps my accuracy below 100%" card, against missiles and fighters(tho an evasive fighter at even one LS can be a tricky target).

You're mainly the one at a disadvantage - I've yet to see someone get upset that their enemy had voluntarily handicapped themself. :p.




Well, that and people often use hyperspace or slipspace or whatever as just another plot device without considering any limitations. In your example, the enemy capital would be located on a planet, which generates a strong gravitational/magnetic field, which deflects objects traveling in hyperspace, so the conversion warhead could easily miss. Besides, how are you keeping those antiprotons in the warhead without them exploding instantly upon coming into contact with regular matter? Not enough people ask that question. :P


Antimatter containment is doubleplus oldhat scifi - generally a magnatic bottle or the ilk, antiprotons being charged particles.

Further, not everyone uses gravity-impacted FTL, and for those that do, calculating the imparted deflection of a planet - whose mass/gravity is pretty predictable - would probably be an option for many.

It's not really something your characters should feel comfortable about relying on to prevent surprise atomic paperweights from appearing on their desk, if you know what I mean. :wink:

What's the difference? :wink:

Do I have to put side by side a quote from Chronosia and from Gens Romae so you can see the difference?

Should you RP a god of the sort the latter did, I would immediately add you to my ignore_list.

I have no idea who that is, but as far as I'm concerned, a god is just a powerful entity with a fancy title - powerful being relative, and all other properties subject to the will of it's player/creator.

Gods have no inherent properties that make them more or less appropriate for play, the label just happens to be associated(wrongly) in the minds of most with a blank cheque to wank.

I have no idea who that is, but as far as I'm concerned, a god is just a powerful entity with a fancy title - powerful being relative, and all other properties subject to the will of it's player/creator.

Gods have no inherent properties that make them more or less appropriate for play, the label just happens to be associated(wrongly) in the minds of most with a blank cheque to wank.

There is a difference between "powerful entity with fancy title" and "all-mighty godmode."

There is a huge difference between using WH40k Chaos Gods in a RP and using this:

http://forums3.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13274613&postcount=76

Technically, that is an example of having a god in a RP

And a good reason to avoid gods altogether in anything that hasn't been planned beforehand between all participants. When they are not plot devices previously agreed upon... they are usually RPed like that.

That's... actually pretty funny. Thanks for the laugh. :D

Anyway, 'god'(not to be confused with God, which is a specific, wanktastic entity) doesn't really have much in the way of inherent meaning, just some general implications; your argument that gods in general should be avoided outside of plot devices is based entirly on examples of people RPing them poorly, an argument that could be applied to anything.

Fact is, the only difference between an entity that claims it is a god, and an actual god, is not in it's nature or abilities, but in the player/creator declaring it to be so. Although declaring that your baseline, mortal hunam character was in fact a god(with no associated powers/etc.) would be pretty strange. :p

Besides, you can easily RP an uberpower god in normal RP if you limit it's functional capabilities somehow. Cold War USA was perfectly capable of nuking Vietnam, or Cuba, or whoever, but they couldn't(morals and public outrage aside) because the USSR checked that power with it's own, and vice versa.

Grah, so much for my idea of a gimmick nation involving hardcore Christians with priests actually capable of performing Biblical style miracles. -_-

While all of that is true, the premise is what I must disagree with. Future Tech, in my circle of roleplay is no longer about national conflict, one nation trying to take down the other. Now I can understand instant disagreement because that is what it appears to be on the forums. While this is true and it is overtly the message on the forums, the premise on MSN in regard to RP’s has changed significantly. The wars between nationstates is now a side to the greater drama of the characters arcs that FT nations have amongst the backdrop of a greater Galactic conflict, that is almost never ending. Good Verses Evil.

For example, the war currently between the Republic and myself is furthering the character arcs of Hera, the Seer, and a few others. Wars in Future Tech are no longer an opportunity to push the proverbial stats penis but are instead an opportunity to set a dramatic flair for your characters in an environment with stress and tension.

The space battles take a sideline, while the characters should be the primary focus.

So while yes, a Sol sized solar system, should be okay for an NS nation. FT has evolved past the normal levels of statistics used for a nation. For example, national populations for FT rarely dictate actual IC population but instead are used as a relative measuring stick for military strength. Normally, 1 Billion in population allows for one thousand capital ships. This generates that large scope and space theatres, and space opera type of scenario that players who play FT thirst after.

So, while your above points are correct, they’re not exactly fully relevant to what FT has become.

Yeah that's fine and all, but I don't think you actually addressed a single thing I said.

I do agree with US as well at least as far as national populations being somewhat irrelevant in FT, and also about battles being part of a story rather than a means to an end for themselves (ditto technology).

That is something I've always had a hard time with, since I'm only fair at character roleplays, but really really enjoy making up reams and reams and reams of technobabble.

Self-gratification in gimmickry, however, doesn't neccesarily make a good read. Who can actually read a three screen long statblock without their eyes glazing over at least once? >_>

Yeah that's fine and all, but I don't think you actually addressed a single thing I said.

I said you were correct, unless you failed to see my post, but, I also said your points fully correct and discounted them, by pointing out the idealism of your logic.

We prefer practical steps.

Seems reasonable to me. I'd RP with it.

If engagement ranges are at light-minutes, would you have some kind of quantum communication to gain targeting data, or would you be relying on projections based on lightspeed communication?

Lightspeed communication. Also, most of my anti-ship weapons are coil-accelerated guided munitions, either with big warheads or just relying on kinetic energy to smash the bad guys.


As for the enemy's faster acceleration lessening my engagement envelope, wouldn't accelerating that fast just make them a bigger target? It would seem that the faster they accelerate, the harder it is to overcome their inertia no matter how good their engines are. I highly doubt a Star Destroyer or USS Enterprise can stop on a dime.

I said you were correct, unless you failed to see my post, but, I also said your points fully correct and discounted them, by pointing out the idealism of your logic.

We prefer practical steps.

You prefer what you consider practical Sithy, and you discount a lot that does not fully adhere to your idea of whats logical.

Vernii primarily RP's in a region of nations that recognizes each member nation with a great amount of respect that is not seen any wheres else. So he expects people to act in a manner that is not often seen in the vast majority of nations. And with the exception of yourself and a couple other nations sithy the group you Rp with is akin to a sick pathetic joke.

*suppress desire to make cynical comment about canon-challenged Weeabo Jedis in motorcycles fanfics and RP quality in desperate attempt to keep civility in this thread*

In the end I think we can all agree that FTL traveling is, ultimately, a plot device to allow our respective FT nations to interact successfully and in a manner we would all consider "convenient," for lack of a better word. To drudge down further into the actual physics of the possibility or hypothetical counter-measures to such seems to me a bit...I don't know, ridiculous, on these forums at least. There are other places where such a debate could take place. While I do not agree or disagree with any main stance that individuals have here stated, but I would agree that there should be separate forms of FTL inhibitors for the different forms of FTL travel, instead of some all pervasive FTLi that some nations claim to have. (As was explained in more easier vernacular by Balrogga a few posts before (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14502797&postcount=1152)

On a side note, Xess, I noticed a comment and thought I might challenge it for sporting sake.

Now you can use it to stop people from fleeing, I just see that as far more useful fitting the needs of police work than on the battlefield.

I would disagree with you on that topic. I see FTLi, such as my Star Wars-tech derived Interdictors, as being a vital part of military operations and SOP in any scenario which may prove advantageous to keep an enemy from escaping. Such a scenario being when an enemy is soundly beaten but yet not entirely destroyed, leaving the victor in a position to totally defeat an enemy instead of running the risk of fighting a force later on that may grow to be a future threat. There are many military applications and tactics that involve the ability to keep an enemy from retreating. I'll quote a famous saying made famous by North Vietnamese general Giap during the Vietnam conflict: "we must grab them by the belt."

You prefer what you consider practical Sithy, and you discount a lot that does not fully adhere to your idea of whats logical.

Vernii primarily RP's in a region of nations that recognizes each member nation with a great amount of respect that is not seen any wheres else. So he expects people to act in a manner that is not often seen in the vast majority of nations. And with the exception of yourself and a couple other nations sithy the group you Rp with is akin to a sick pathetic joke.

Way too far. The arrogance you're displaying is not acceptable and your opinion of other players to be honest smacks of elitism.

No, I don't discount it, I recognised it as being entirely logical, but I called it idealism. Idealism that won't work when you turn your nose up at players who have a lot more to learn.

Your EXPECTATIONS Wick, of other players, will not lead to a better roleplay environment, in a game we have to deal with varied players, from many countries, from many cultures and age diversities, so you must be prepared to accept that some people may have a lot to learn.

This learning of players on a self level will progress through the game over time, where they will then realise the changes they have to make. Your position is one of a complete lack of patience and to be honest, it just makes you out to be a snob.

I would rather work with people and play with those who have more to learn, even those I dislike if at all possible, than simply label them as a "sick pathetic joke."

Sure, they may not be as skilled as you, but at least they don't inflate their ass with their own ego.

Do we really need to get into a pissing contest over who's the most accepting? Honestly; to each their own! You're right, there is a lot of variety here, and there are people who need help, but by the same token there are people who will not and cannot improve, no matter what. People who scorn help and advice and continually infuriate, annoy and disrupt with their antics.

I myself have never ignored anyone directly, but I do consider myself as preferring to work with those who actually know what they're doing. I won't demonize anyone for wanting a select grouping, nor will I mock the open-armed naivety of someone who wants to give even the most aberrant grouping their opportunity.

What I will say is that the two of you ought to put your issues aside, get over yourselves and respect (if not accept) the others stance.

Personal insults need not creep into what should be objective debate from people who ought to know better.

As for the enemy's faster acceleration lessening my engagement envelope, wouldn't accelerating that fast just make them a bigger target? It would seem that the faster they accelerate, the harder it is to overcome their inertia no matter how good their engines are. I highly doubt a Star Destroyer or USS Enterprise can stop on a dime.

We're not talking about stopping, or matching course, or even straight-line acceleration - we're talking about evasive maneuvering, and the ability to be generate uncertainty in the other guy's targeting by increasing the volume of space your ship might be in by the time their weapons reach you.

Turning rate also factors into it(if you can't accelerate off-axis), but even just varying your acceleration can generate a wide miss.

Consider; targeting an enemy at range consists of calculating the volume of space they could maneuver into in the time it takes your weapons to reach them, adjusted by their probable actual maneuvering choices(ie, if they're trying to close the range, they're probably not going to turn around. If they're shooting back, they'll likely keep their guns pointed at you and not turn such they they'd be masked. Etc.). If you're lobbing munitions with their own engines, you can further adjust they by their own acceleration and the maximum delta-v offered by their onboard fuel source. Things like bomb-pumped lasers further weight things in favour of the attacker for to-hit purposes, as the munition only has to get so close to the enemy(mine have an effective 50'000km range).

So, yes, higher acceleration does make it harder to hit things at range. And even if they don't use it, you still have to take it into account when targeting them.

If you don't follow his advice, he will send a Bloodthirster of Khorne after you.

Do we really need to get into a pissing contest over who's the most accepting? Honestly; to each their own! You're right, there is a lot of variety here, and there are people who need help, but by the same token there are people who will not and cannot improve, no matter what. People who scorn help and advice and continually infuriate, annoy and disrupt with their antics.

I myself have never ignored anyone directly, but I do consider myself as preferring to work with those who actually know what they're doing. I won't demonize anyone for wanting a select grouping, nor will I mock the open-armed naivety of someone who wants to give even the most aberrant grouping their opportunity.

What I will say is that the two of you ought to put your issues aside, get over yourselves and respect (if not accept) the others stance.

Personal insults need not creep into what should be objective debate from people who ought to know better.

And that's why Chron is one of the most valuable posters on these boards.

Just asking, would a temporal Field be good for getting past a FTLi?

Just asking, would a temporal Field be good for getting past a FTLi?

Depends on what exactly it is and what it does. A "temporal field" is extremely vague.

Hey Face, don't know if I mentioned it to you, but I found a way to defeat, or at the very least, survive, one of those huge Darkships of Mekanta's. =D

If you don't follow his advice, he will send a Bloodthirster of Khorne after you.

Word, dude.

Hey Face, don't know if I mentioned it to you, but I found a way to defeat, or at the very least, survive, one of those huge Darkships of Mekanta's. =D

Oh? I'm curious. My method is exceedingly simple: Just keep shooting until they die. :p

From two encounters with Mekanta's Darkships i've found that the best way to survive is to neither kill it's occupants or the ships itself, but to kill the thread :D Twice now my forces have been saved from certain destruction thanks to inactivity on someone elses part!

After learning of the destructive capabilities of the Mekanta Darkship I decided to try facing the conundrum that it presents. Using details provided by Mekanta himself:

"Special one-shot one-kill methods like string disruption, or even lower-end exotic material reactions like slapping antimatter up against a Darkship's hull simply don't work. Direct energy or kinetic weaponry is the only thing that has been demonstrated to work against a Darkship. Meanwhile, the Darkship is ripping apart FTLi fields, firing faster than light linear weapons through still-intact FTLi fields, and dropping its gravity negation field to become a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk. This is also not taking into account the warship's innate telekinesis, which has been used to smash planets into a fine powder, rip apart stars, and gently stitch together the wounds of Mekantan soldiers."
(Source: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581353&page=3)

A Dark Ship is in essence a living thing, as it has the power of telekinesis, and it has been demonstrated that nothing that is not living can have such power. The question of how to face a telekinetic force that has the psychic power to "smash planets into small powder" is nigh impossible, with the exception of perhaps a few psykers known to be nearly as powerful, such as perhaps Emperor Palpatine (Unified Sith), Emperor Remiel (Chronosia), Simon (Thrashia, myself), and any other characters of comparable level who have been, through rp history, proven to be strong enough to face such a force. The chances of any being such as the previous three facing more than one Darkship and surviving is perhaps a bit much to ask, but it is without doubt that to negate the telekinetic powers of a dark ship, any of the previously mentioned beings would, at the end, either be so taxed in their power as to die, or to become so taxed in their power, that they lose their abilities all together. Or so would I estimate.

A Darkship also acts as a black hole, since instead of shields it apparently has a gravity negation field around it. By dropping this field, as quoted from Neo-Mekanta, a black ship "becomes a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk" after dropping that gravity negation field. By that logic, is seems quite feasible to create an interdictor cruiser (or something like it, most likely well more protected) that, instead of creating a gravity shadow, does the exact opposite, creating a negative gravitational field and thereby forcing a new gravity negation field upon the Darkship and keeping it from using its innate mass to create a "black hole" and destroy its opponents in that fashion.

In order to further protect one of these negative-gravitational cruisers, there can be also the use of Dune technology to further protect it from the other powers of a Darkship. The shields developed in Frank Herbert’s "Dune" are as described: "A shield was produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield would permit entry only to objects that moved at slow speeds." This Holtzman shield would allow one of these special cruisers to remain invulnerable to the rail guns of a Dark Ship, seeing as only slow moving objects can pass through them. (Source: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Shield)

Of course in that same way that shield would be vulnerable to more conventional forms of weaponry, such as turbolasers, or any kind of lasers for that matter. To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield, and thereby protect the ship from both lasers and rail guns. Due to the fact that the first SW shield would need to be strong enough to keep a large amount of laser fire from reaching the Dune shield, it must be powered by a generator on a planetary-scale, thereby necessitating that the ship be as large as a Super Star Destroyer. This would also necessitate the creation of point defense towers that would project beyond the Dune shield so as not to trigger the ship's destruction, and help to keep enemies at bay. The towers would have to be specially designed that, in the event of their destruction, their superstructures could be "ejected" from the hull of the cruiser, and thereby remove the chance of a defense tower's destruction hurting the ship's integrity.

===

That's the solution I came up with.

After learning of the destructive capabilities of the Mekanta Darkship I decided to try facing the conundrum that it presents. Using details provided by Mekanta himself:

"Special one-shot one-kill methods like string disruption, or even lower-end exotic material reactions like slapping antimatter up against a Darkship's hull simply don't work. Direct energy or kinetic weaponry is the only thing that has been demonstrated to work against a Darkship. Meanwhile, the Darkship is ripping apart FTLi fields, firing faster than light linear weapons through still-intact FTLi fields, and dropping its gravity negation field to become a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk. This is also not taking into account the warship's innate telekinesis, which has been used to smash planets into a fine powder, rip apart stars, and gently stitch together the wounds of Mekantan soldiers."
(Source: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=581353&page=3)

A Dark Ship is in essence a living thing, as it has the power of telekinesis, and it has been demonstrated that nothing that is not living can have such power. The question of how to face a telekinetic force that has the psychic power to "smash planets into small powder" is nigh impossible, with the exception of perhaps a few psykers known to be nearly as powerful, such as perhaps Emperor Palpatine (Unified Sith), Emperor Remiel (Chronosia), Simon (Thrashia, myself), and any other characters of comparable level who have been, through rp history, proven to be strong enough to face such a force. The chances of any being such as the previous three facing more than one Darkship and surviving is perhaps a bit much to ask, but it is without doubt that to negate the telekinetic powers of a dark ship, any of the previously mentioned beings would, at the end, either be so taxed in their power as to die, or to become so taxed in their power, that they lose their abilities all together. Or so would I estimate.

A Darkship also acts as a black hole, since instead of shields it apparently has a gravity negation field around it. By dropping this field, as quoted from Neo-Mekanta, a black ship "becomes a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk" after dropping that gravity negation field. By that logic, is seems quite feasible to create an interdictor cruiser (or something like it, most likely well more protected) that, instead of creating a gravity shadow, does the exact opposite, creating a negative gravitational field and thereby forcing a new gravity negation field upon the Darkship and keeping it from using its innate mass to create a "black hole" and destroy its opponents in that fashion.

In order to further protect one of these negative-gravitational cruisers, there can be also the use of Dune technology to further protect it from the other powers of a Darkship. The shields developed in Frank Herbert’s "Dune" are as described: "A shield was produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield would permit entry only to objects that moved at slow speeds." This Holtzman shield would allow one of these special cruisers to remain invulnerable to the rail guns of a Dark Ship, seeing as only slow moving objects can pass through them. (Source: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Shield)

Of course in that same way that shield would be vulnerable to more conventional forms of weaponry, such as turbolasers, or any kind of lasers for that matter. To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield, and thereby protect the ship from both lasers and rail guns. Due to the fact that the first SW shield would need to be strong enough to keep a large amount of laser fire from reaching the Dune shield, it must be powered by a generator on a planetary-scale, thereby necessitating that the ship be as large as a Super Star Destroyer. This would also necessitate the creation of point defense towers that would project beyond the Dune shield so as not to trigger the ship's destruction, and help to keep enemies at bay. The towers would have to be specially designed that, in the event of their destruction, their superstructures could be "ejected" from the hull of the cruiser, and thereby remove the chance of a defense tower's destruction hurting the ship's integrity.

===

That's the solution I came up with.Interesting. Wouldn't it be easier, however, to possess a commodity that Neo-Menkanta would find desirable, yet cannot replicate or seize through force of arms?

As if that would stop a Darkship?

Interesting. Wouldn't it be easier, however, to possess a commodity that Neo-Menkanta would find desirable, yet cannot replicate or seize through force of arms?

Don't be silly. No Darkship was ever destroyed through negotiation. :P

Oh, you're objective is to destroy the Darkship? I thought it was to render it incapable or unwilling to attack your holdings. True, destroying it is an effective means toward the former, but given the power level I think the latter is more feasable.

I think that Mekanta represents the pinnacle of "civilisation" on here given his size. I believe he put it that he can place his immense population, resources and technology into a few Darkships, I suppose that makes his vessels immensly powerful but his Empire weak if he has a low number of vessels as I suspect. In a one on one battle Mekanta would probably win. But in a campaign I suspect that a technologically inferior foe, but possessing more ships, would be able to out maneouver Mekanta; but of course, that's in a campaign, and peole rarely embark on those.

I think that Mekanta represents the pinnacle of "civilisation" on here given his size. I believe he put it that he can place his immense population, resources and technology into a few Darkships, I suppose that makes his vessels immensly powerful but his Empire weak if he has a low number of vessels as I suspect. In a one on one battle Mekanta would probably win. But in a campaign I suspect that a technologically inferior foe, but possessing more ships, would be able to out maneouver Mekanta; but of course, that's in a campaign, and peole rarely embark on those.

I do so love campaigns. In fact, I'm about to launch one. Maybe even two.

I do so love campaigns. In fact, I'm about to launch one. Maybe even two.

Someones actually launching a campaign! *shock horror* My dear sir, you have potentially made my day, if you do embark on this campaign I intend to follow with great interest! Far more interesting than your usual, "accidentally bumped into twenty new races today after following a distress call" format.

Labours of debased love against Coreworlds and Dratheria, methinks.

Someones actually launching a campaign! *shock horror* My dear sir, you have potentially made my day, if you do embark on this campaign I intend to follow with great interest! Far more interesting than your usual, "accidentally bumped into twenty new races today after following a distress call" format.

Huntaer and I are launching a protracted campaign against WIck at this moment. We've just started.

Huntaer and I are launching a protracted campaign against WIck at this moment. We've just started.


I will follow with great interest :)

I will follow with great interest :)

Here's a link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14462679).

Here's a link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=14462679).

Dank A'Shun :D

Hasn't the Unified Sith vs Coreworlds campaign been the longest ongoing continuous RP in II?

I believe they've been roleplaying with one another for almost three years now.

Perhaps. But now I get Masaki's head ^^

I do so love campaigns. In fact, I'm about to launch one. Maybe even two.

Please, I really want to have Glacius, AKA Gliese 581d to become known as Solar Communes' Cadia. And before someone asks, should this campaign happen, it'll involve a much weaker and technologically backwards(but more realist scientifically) version of Solar Communes in the 2170s rather than in the 6th millennium.

*Edit: Well... I'd have semi-automatic gauss rifles only. That alone will make it very interesting. I'd go for bolt-action gauss rifles, but bolt action and coilguns don't match.

*Edit 2: It'll be as epic as a Winter War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War) In Space! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne?from=Main.RecycledINSPACE) would

I'm also going to hammer you, yes :P

I'm also going to hammer you, yes :P

That was exactly what Stalin thought about Finland :P

LOL I bet I can find a art about the latter.

http://young-wolf.deviantart.com/art/Winter-War-II-110737662

I never said I'd win. Simply that I would be brutal and hefty :P

Twenty pounds on Chron

A Dark Ship is in essence a living thing, as it has the power of telekinesis, and it has been demonstrated that nothing that is not living can have such power.

Why is that?

It sounds like a brainbug to me.



In order to further protect one of these negative-gravitational cruisers, there can be also the use of Dune technology to further protect it from the other powers of a Darkship. The shields developed in Frank Herbert’s "Dune" are as described: "A shield was produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield would permit entry only to objects that moved at slow speeds." This Holtzman shield would allow one of these special cruisers to remain invulnerable to the rail guns of a Dark Ship, seeing as only slow moving objects can pass through them. (Source: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Shield)


"However, if a lasgun beam hit a Holtzman field, it would result in sub-atomic fusion and a nuclear explosion. The center of this blast was determined by random chance; sometimes it would originate within the shield, sometimes within the laser weapon, sometimes both."

Sounds like an invitation for laser-incorperating munitions. I have a few types, tho for this application I'm thinking of one in particular - Mekenta could prolly pull it off easy.

And it sounds like putting the SW shields under it wouldn't necessarily stop it from sending up a nuke inside your ship, given how vague the discription seems.



That's the solution I came up with.


Personally, I like my Battleplates - they're anti-everything. :)

Of course, I only have 3. And 7 Superfortresses. And 32 frigates. And that's about it.

How many Darkships does he have, anyway?

Personally, I like my Battleplates - they're anti-everything. :)

The thing with Battleplates is that they apparently include a stupidity generation field. The proper tactics to take one down are fairly obvious, yet everyone I've ever seen has just kept firing on that reflection field in the vain hope that it'll somehow go down. :tongue:

How many Darkships does he have, anyway?More importantly, what's the ratio between Darkships and potential targets the Darkships need to defend?

Darkships don't need to defend anything. Fear of even trying to invade is as powerful of a defensive weapon as it gets.

Until you run into someone who isn't afraid, or is simply willing to take the casualties neccesary to deal with them.

The thing with Battleplates is that they apparently include a stupidity generation field. The proper tactics to take one down are fairly obvious, yet everyone I've ever seen has just kept firing on that reflection field in the vain hope that it'll somehow go down. :tongue:


*As a feathered tranq blossoms on Facehugger's neck, men in black suits drag his unconscious form away for "reeducation."*

"If all of you could look here at this shiney metal pen, the secret to defeating Kanuckistani Battleplates will be explained in depth and detail. Now this is the only way to do it, it's not what you'd think, and I'll only explain once, so pay very close attention..."

*Sets Neuralizer to '8-year-old little girl'*

*FLASH*


:D

Sounds like an invitation for laser-incorperating munitions. I have a few types, tho for this application I'm thinking of one in particular - Mekenta could prolly pull it off easy.

And it sounds like putting the SW shields under it wouldn't necessarily stop it from sending up a nuke inside your ship, given how vague the discription seems.


I think you stopped reading before you finished. After the paragraph explaining the Dune shield, I said in clear English:

"Of course in that same way that shield would be vulnerable to more conventional forms of weaponry, such as turbolasers, or any kind of lasers for that matter. To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield."

Which would just mean that once they battered down the SW-esque shield they one-shot the ship with a bomb-pumped laserhead. Which would be pretty quick, considering that a good portion of the energy you'd normally be using to keep the SW shield up is apparently devoted to the Holtzmann field.

A Dark Ship is in essence a living thing, as it has the power of telekinesis, and it has been demonstrated that nothing that is not living can have such power.

That's an assumption I wouldn't want to make.

The question of how to face a telekinetic force that has the psychic power to "smash planets into small powder" is nigh impossible, with the exception of perhaps a few psykers known to be nearly as powerful, such as perhaps Emperor Palpatine (Unified Sith), Emperor Remiel (Chronosia), Simon (Thrashia, myself), and any other characters of comparable level who have been, through rp history, proven to be strong enough to face such a force. The chances of any being such as the previous three facing more than one Darkship and surviving is perhaps a bit much to ask, but it is without doubt that to negate the telekinetic powers of a dark ship, any of the previously mentioned beings would, at the end, either be so taxed in their power as to die, or to become so taxed in their power, that they lose their abilities all together. Or so would I estimate.

So you'd have to lose one of your biggest characters just to have a chance at taking on a darkship?

Have you considered just investing in a psi-blocking device and hooking it up to a capship's reactor? Trying to match a darkship in a TK match seems rather like pandering to its strengths to me.

I mean, a darkship by its nature is going to be able to handle far larger amounts of energy than some fleshy organic meatbag. So trying to equal it in something that requires the handling of large amounts of energy seems folly to me.

A Darkship also acts as a black hole, since instead of shields it apparently has a gravity negation field around it. By dropping this field, as quoted from Neo-Mekanta, a black ship "becomes a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk" after dropping that gravity negation field. By that logic, is seems quite feasible to create an interdictor cruiser (or something like it, most likely well more protected) that, instead of creating a gravity shadow, does the exact opposite, creating a negative gravitational field and thereby forcing a new gravity negation field upon the Darkship and keeping it from using its innate mass to create a "black hole" and destroy its opponents in that fashion.

Seems workable. I'd go for a different solution myself, but that could work.

This interdictor would have to have the energy to negate a full-size black hole's gravity though. And that's rather *huge.* We're talking something closer in scope to the Death Star than any SSD.

In fact, I'm not even sure a DS-size interdictor could do that.

In order to further protect one of these negative-gravitational cruisers, there can be also the use of Dune technology to further protect it from the other powers of a Darkship. The shields developed in Frank Herbert’s "Dune" are as described: "A shield was produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect. A shield would permit entry only to objects that moved at slow speeds." This Holtzman shield would allow one of these special cruisers to remain invulnerable to the rail guns of a Dark Ship, seeing as only slow moving objects can pass through them. (Source: http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Shield)

Eh, I wouldn't want to bet on duneshields making you invulnerable. Conservation of momentum means that the momentum of any projectile hitting you has to go somewhere. Generally speaking, this 'somewhere' is 'into the shield generator' or 'into your body.'

It's somewhat similar to how modern body armor stops bullets, but will still leave the guy bruised even though nothing actually penetrated.

I guess the shields could just flat out ignore CoM, but generally, unless it's directly and explicitly stated to do so, we shouldn't be assuming that.

Of course in that same way that shield would be vulnerable to more conventional forms of weaponry, such as turbolasers, or any kind of lasers for that matter. To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield, and thereby protect the ship from both lasers and rail guns. Due to the fact that the first SW shield would need to be strong enough to keep a large amount of laser fire from reaching the Dune shield, it must be powered by a generator on a planetary-scale, thereby necessitating that the ship be as large as a Super Star Destroyer. This would also necessitate the creation of point defense towers that would project beyond the Dune shield so as not to trigger the ship's destruction, and help to keep enemies at bay. The towers would have to be specially designed that, in the event of their destruction, their superstructures could be "ejected" from the hull of the cruiser, and thereby remove the chance of a defense tower's destruction hurting the ship's integrity.

I doubt it's beyond Mekanta's power to bash down the SW-style shields and then fire off, say, a bomb-pumped laser missile.

Also, turbolasers aren't lasers in the dune sense of the word, so the duneshields wouldn't explode.

That's the solution I came up with.

It's certainly a complex solution. And not one that would grant you safety from Mekanta unless he has less than three darkships.

I think you stopped reading before you finished. After the paragraph explaining the Dune shield, I said in clear English:

"Of course in that same way that shield would be vulnerable to more conventional forms of weaponry, such as turbolasers, or any kind of lasers for that matter. To fend against that eventuality it would be simple enough to layer a powerful "normal" SW-tech shield over the Dune shield."

Sleep deprivation isn't very good for reading comprehension. I didn't notice the 'over' bit, and assumed you'd use it to protect against the side-effect of laser-boom, for as Otagia said, it doesn't provide any benifit against an enemy with so much as a particularly impressive laser comm or LiDAR array, but instead remains a liability - they batter down the SW shell then tag you with laser-heads until your own shield kills you.


Tho I think a neat way to attack a Holtzman shield would be to replace the warhead with a few dozen lasing-rods bundled together, caped with a weak one-shot pulse-laser - pulse laser tags the shield, provoking the nuclear backlash, which pumps the lasing rods, which blast you, and if you survived the initial backlash of your own shield, well, ouch. :D

Way too far. The arrogance you're displaying is not acceptable and your opinion of other players to be honest smacks of elitism.

No, I don't discount it, I recognised it as being entirely logical, but I called it idealism. Idealism that won't work when you turn your nose up at players who have a lot more to learn.

Your EXPECTATIONS Wick, of other players, will not lead to a better roleplay environment, in a game we have to deal with varied players, from many countries, from many cultures and age diversities, so you must be prepared to accept that some people may have a lot to learn.

This learning of players on a self level will progress through the game over time, where they will then realise the changes they have to make. Your position is one of a complete lack of patience and to be honest, it just makes you out to be a snob.

I would rather work with people and play with those who have more to learn, even those I dislike if at all possible, than simply label them as a "sick pathetic joke."

Sure, they may not be as skilled as you, but at least they don't inflate their ass with their own ego.

Okay…

Sithy what Vernii tried to point out was that my Destroyer was scouting out a system twelve light hours out from an enemy fleet in the interior of the system was one enemy fleet waiting to rendezvous with an allied fleet. What happened with the allied fleet showed up? It jumped within METERS of my tincan, interdictors and turbo lasers flying. You told me too bad its just random chance, no it wasn’t it was god mode. It was resolved by a third party though to the satisfaction of all those involved.

What Vernii tried to say in his thread is that solar systems and space in general is quite large and expansive and we should treat it as such. He also expressed an idea that FT nations should concentrate on fully developing one system in detail, rather then claim the entire SW galaxy where one claims millions of systems and stars. He thought that huge claiming of swaths leads to noobish II wars.

I wont address my issues with our thread here its not the place for it. Our colonial friend knows how I feel enough about it. And yep I am not happy.

Vernii is an upstanding nation who’s built himself up from scratch without using the crutch of established storylines and Xeroxed characters. He has earned my respect in this game and his opinion stated here I agree with. You claimed that our SW group rps about characters and not national conflict? Why then are two of your thugs invading my nation now ON YOUR ORDERS? Which is fine I like to fight, but when people declare upon me there will be battles, because I do not agree with working out what will happen in the war over MSN, we will RP. That is the joke in SW-land Everything must be predetermined to the most minute detail over MSN. That’s what I was getting at, and while many people who know me will say im stubborn, cynical, bitter, the one thing im not is an elitist snob. Ask them what I am I doubt its that. But whatever my point is…

You can RP wars with detailed battles, while having a rich immersion of well flushed out and original characters. I have had the distinct privilege of being apart of such threads in the Raumreich region, seen here http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=344665.

I’m all for debating tech issues, FTL and FTL/I. And to the others here I’m sorry from bringing this off topic a bit. I wont reply again unless its to a specific tech issue.

http://www.fanfiction.net/forums/movie/Star_Wars/

http://www.twguild.com/

http://www.fanfiction.net/forums/tv/Battlestar_Galactica_2003/

May I ask why is II used instead of specialized boards for some of the threads I see around?

Although I admit it could be argued Solar Communes is a fanfic for a lowbrow movie which name would be censored in these boards and ends with "...From Outer Space"

That is the joke in SW-land Everything must be predetermined to the most minute detail over MSN.

o.0

Ok, there are some pretty obvious advantages to working things out in advance, but it sounds like it'd suck most of the fun out of it - win or lose, I don't want to know what's going to happen ahead of time. The unknown makes things interesting.

Personally I like to sort out a post or two at most to keep the actions fresh and seem to react to the last posts other made instead of conforming them to match something prearranged in minute detail.

...are two of your thugs invading...

Yay, I ranked as high as thug!:D But wait...am I Thug 1 or Thug 2?

@Balrogga: Have to agree with you on that point man.

To provide an example, I agreed long ago to RP a Research Thread with CoreWorld where he discovers an important weakness against my Kythons. He will eventually succeed but we are taking it one post at a time.

He knows ways to accomplish the task OOCly (I told and hinted at a couple) but we are working at ways to ICly maneuver his research upon logical steps to discover the flaws without creating a disaster inside his Research Station. We started this a couple years ago but he got busy and stopped posting. Lately we have restarted the Thread a few weeks ago and are progressing at "post speed".

We know the outcome, it is planned, but two posts from now we do not have any idea for we discuss each post on MSN to figure out things. This is the way I believe things should be done, especially with a small number of players. Again, this is my opinion but we are all entitled to those.

Yay, I ranked as high as thug!:D But wait...am I Thug 1 or Thug 2?

@Balrogga: Have to agree with you on that point man.


Don't fight Thrashia, I love you all the same! ;)

The main problem I see here, has less to do with planning or tech but instead a difference in styles. In wick’s case, he is very technical, which is not a bad thing. He wants to know enemy size, disposition, armament, defenses, angle of attack, basically everything that would be seen on sensors, so he has a clear view of the situation.

Where in Sithy’s case, he is more of an Ends justify the means. He wants to tell a story, and if it involves a battle fine. Perhaps I am wrong but he prefers to be the villain, and just do things, without as much technical aspects, because Sithy feels it ruins the story. Again nothing wrong with that.

Others just prefer Epicness for the sake of Epicness. None of these styles are wrong, this is a game each player should play what they want, to maximize their fun. And that is why OOC IM’s are important, to work out the differences and details of the situation. However public insulting of other players in a thread, for having a differing style should not be acceptable.

The over all story should be worked out, and a compromise between the differing styles of any RP to make life and conflict outside the game easier. Some people like myself do it by staying with the same groups of people. They know what I like, and I them. Makes it much easier than having to argue the same damn thing over and over.

In any event, this is just a game. If you desire to play with other people, please just try to respect their positions and unique style of play. Insults of any variety are detracting from the fun of the game. If you can’t do that, I would like to recommend that you do not play with them. No one is holding a gun to your head….

Three cheers for Orthodox Gnosticism! Well said mate.

A Dark Ship is in essence a living thing, as it has the power of telekinesis, and it has been demonstrated that nothing that is not living can have such power.

I see that claim, and raise you the Great Machine of the Krell.

In actuality, I've a few things in various nations that are capable of telekinesis; that is, after all, what tractor beams are. They're not all living (though I suppose the C'tani ones are, being living metal and all).

A Darkship also acts as a black hole, since instead of shields it apparently has a gravity negation field around it. By dropping this field, as quoted from Neo-Mekanta, a black ship "becomes a large black hole via its own innate mass and turning the fleet trying to destroy it and everything else around it into an accretion disk" after dropping that gravity negation field. By that logic, is seems quite feasible to create an interdictor cruiser (or something like it, most likely well more protected) that, instead of creating a gravity shadow, does the exact opposite, creating a negative gravitational field and thereby forcing a new gravity negation field upon the Darkship and keeping it from using its innate mass to create a "black hole" and destroy its opponents in that fashion.

This isn't a bad idea, but I've a number of comments on it.

The first is that, you wouldn't even need to match their energy - merely stop it forming a singularity; after all, until it does that, a gravity well is just helping give your kinetics a little extra oomph.

However, I'm not sure such a thing should be physically destructible. If it can collapse itself into a black hole (the alternative, that it can merely persist beyond a {rather large} event horizon is perhaps even stranger, and would mean you could theoretically shoot into the black hole and still hit the ship) then it can obviously re-form is exterior after having it utterly destroyed. As a result, all direct fire weapons would be pretty much futile in attacking it; treat it as a (Doctor Who, for those that don't know) TARDIS; to destroy it, you've pretty much got to either have weapons that attack whatever freaky dimension (n+3+1 spatial dimension or some alternate plane, or whatever) most of its mass is stored in; what you see in realspace is an interface only, most of the ship is somewhere else.

Of course, the simple way to do this is to get on board and set off a suitably large bomb, but that would likely be... challenging; which is a good thing.

I've some other ideas, mind, but they'd require more information on the targets, from Mekatana.

Thanks for the compliment Ctan. When I first came up with the idea it was mostly a "chewing gum" solution. Sticking the gum in the hole so the dam won't immediately break. I agree with you on the Doctor Who analogy. I myself was rather put off at the idea of the Darkship being its own blackhole and yet not being destroyed outright, which if you put your theory to it, proves more feasible. We'll have to see what Mekanta thinks.

I see that claim, and raise you the Great Machine of the Krell.

You mean that machine from Plan 9 from Outer Space? Or are you talking about that B5 "great machine"?

The first is that, you wouldn't even need to match their energy - merely stop it forming a singularity; after all, until it does that, a gravity well is just helping give your kinetics a little extra oomph.

Good point. I didn't think of that.

Of course, the simple way to do this is to get on board and set off a suitably large bomb, but that would likely be... challenging; which is a good thing.

What, really? It seems like every time I fight Mekanta, a boarding action involving huge bombs and crack teams of shock troops always comes up.

:p

Of course, the simple way to do this is to get on board and set off a suitably large bomb, but that would likely be... challenging; which is a good thing.

Hentai Bomber Lolicons?

The first is that, you wouldn't even need to match their energy - merely stop it forming a singularity; after all, until it does that, a gravity well is just helping give your kinetics a little extra oomph.


o.0

I assuming you mean 'does funky defencive [censored]'(I mean, for starters, how are you supposed to hit a zero-dimentional point with no surface area or volume?), as opposed to the singularity/black hole doing anything special, right? So many people seem to think that a black hole is a black hole, rather than it just being a chunk of mass of sufficient density.

Of course, there are two ways I can think of to survive in a black hole without being crushed - the first, is to brute-force negate, or atleast mitigate, the gravitational forces with your own gravitics/etc., essentially counter-forcing, either selectively or generally - call the later, 'flattening the curve', where the usual 2D-plane-as-3D-space graphic shows a black hole as a cone, with the singularity at the point, this would have a cone with a flat or rounded tip - an area of 'safe' space(if you ignore stuff falling in), potentially beyond the event horizon.

The second method is to 'block' gravity through applied technobabble. My Gravitic Slipfields, for example, block "graviton interactions"(idea being if you stop the messenger particles, you stop the fields interacting), preventing gravity from being felt within it's area of effect, but only that. Naturally there are limits to mine, however, for the sake of RP balance. It's how I primarily protect my handful of super-ships from gravity weapons, tho it has a couple of side effects, and is very expensive.

I see that claim, and raise you the Great Machine of the Krell.

In actuality, I've a few things in various nations that are capable of telekinesis; that is, after all, what tractor beams are. They're not all living (though I suppose the C'tani ones are, being living metal and all).


This isn't a bad idea, but I've a number of comments on it.

The first is that, you wouldn't even need to match their energy - merely stop it forming a singularity; after all, until it does that, a gravity well is just helping give your kinetics a little extra oomph.

However, I'm not sure such a thing should be physically destructible. If it can collapse itself into a black hole (the alternative, that it can merely persist beyond a {rather large} event horizon is perhaps even stranger, and would mean you could theoretically shoot into the black hole and still hit the ship) then it can obviously re-form is exterior after having it utterly destroyed. As a result, all direct fire weapons would be pretty much futile in attacking it; treat it as a (Doctor Who, for those that don't know) TARDIS; to destroy it, you've pretty much got to either have weapons that attack whatever freaky dimension (n+3+1 spatial dimension or some alternate plane, or whatever) most of its mass is stored in; what you see in realspace is an interface only, most of the ship is somewhere else.

Of course, the simple way to do this is to get on board and set off a suitably large bomb, but that would likely be... challenging; which is a good thing.

I've some other ideas, mind, but they'd require more information on the targets, from Mekatana.

It may be possible to destroy a Darkship with a sufficiently powerful AI, no weapons required. I'd need a better overview of how the Darkship works to determine that, but the engine would have to be extremely powerful to move something so large; and presumably there are all kinds of systems to prevent it from collapsing in on itself into a singularity when it removes gravity negation fields, et cetera, et cetera. Something with that kind of power is a bona fide superweapon, but to the right frame of mind a superweapon is just a big, dangerous target.

Again, I don't know if this would work, I'd have to know more about the tech involved.

However, I'm not sure such a thing should be physically destructible. If it can collapse itself into a black hole (the alternative, that it can merely persist beyond a {rather large} event horizon is perhaps even stranger, and would mean you could theoretically shoot into the black hole and still hit the ship) then it can obviously re-form is exterior after having it utterly destroyed. As a result, all direct fire weapons would be pretty much futile in attacking it; treat it as a (Doctor Who, for those that don't know) TARDIS; to destroy it, you've pretty much got to either have weapons that attack whatever freaky dimension (n+3+1 spatial dimension or some alternate plane, or whatever) most of its mass is stored in; what you see in realspace is an interface only, most of the ship is somewhere else.Well, if we follow the Doctor Who metaphor, isn't it hypothetically possible to do what the Daleks did in the last season finale, and make it so the wooden door is just a wooden door? The overlay between the singularity and the darkship would still exist, mind you. After all, the TARDIS was still bigger on the inside than outside. However, the difference is that the darkship would be vulnerable to the singularity.

From a past experience in role playing I witnessed someone utilise a baisc teleportation device to transfer a Darkship into the center of the sun. He survived, sat there and got angry.

I'd say that if you can survive amazing amounts of radiation, gravity and heat all at once at those levels your pretty much set.

From a past experience in role playing I witnessed someone utilise a baisc teleportation device to transfer a Darkship into the center of the sun. He survived, sat there and got angry.

I'd say that if you can survive amazing amounts of radiation, gravity and heat all at once at those levels your pretty much set.
Don't forget pressure. The pressure at the core of a star is rather immense.

...I should just toss my passion for Hard Sci-Fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekov7423el8ye) out the window, shouldn't I?

No, you should keep it, but don't expect to use it very often (except in a small proportion of RPs -- I've been considering a hard science fiction "unification" RP which details the formation of Vojvodina-Nihon and colonization of other worlds in the system, for instance).

Is it just me, or is this place really crawling with tropers?

Is it just me, or is this place really crawling with tropers?
Did you just say tropers?

Hey there, fellow troper!

...I should just toss my passion for Hard Sci-Fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekov7423el8ye) out the window, shouldn't I?
Nah, it's a good thing to keep a hold of. At the very least, it makes your improbable technobabble seem that much more plausible (see Schlock Mercenary).

You mean that machine from Plan 9 from Outer Space? Or are you talking about that B5 "great machine"?
Heretic.

Stop what you're doing, go out and buy/rent 'Forbidden Planet' and watch it. Anyone that confuses Forbidden Planet (possibly the best sci-fi film ever made - they cheated and stole the plot from Shakespere, but still) with Plan Nine From Outer Space (argued by some to be the worst sci-fi film ever made) is a heretic.

o.0

I assuming you mean 'does funky defencive [censored]'(I mean, for starters, how are you supposed to hit a zero-dimentional point with no surface area or volume?), as opposed to the singularity/black hole doing anything special, right? So many people seem to think that a black hole is a black hole, rather than it just being a chunk of mass of sufficient density.
I don't think you understand.

I was suggesting you counter its gravitation (by whatever funky means you might happen to have on hand) before it becomes a black hole. I don't think these things fly around as faux-black holes all the time. So if you stop it going 'ner ner, can't get me, I've compressed myself to a point' it's just sitting at the bottom of its own artificial gravity well, and you're essentially shooting at a neutron star - IE, its own gravitation will add a little extra speed to your kinetics.

Of course, any moron can hit the singularity of a black hole. Toss something beyond the event horizon, and as long as it's not exceeding C, it'll arrive at the singularity eventually. Even a laser.


On the other hand, if its structure (26 Km ship of doom or whatever) somehow persists beyond the event horizon, using its own gravitics to protect it, then in theory, an FTL (teleporting, or simply really quick) weapon could still get it, if you could aim it right. But I don't think this is what Mekatana has in mind, anyway, so that hardly matters.


Of course, there are ways to deal with it when it's a black hole I can think up, too, but I'm not going to post them here, because:
I keep some ideas under my own hat as I want to use them, should a situation ever arise.
It's consequences are way too wanked to let certain people copy.

I frequent the site on account of being a playgrounder, if that counts. Now, a question regarding the plausibility of the capitol ship concept I have for the Golugani:

My people are, in summary, dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame) in space (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne?from=Main.RecycledINSPACE). I figure, since dwarves have a love of family and defensive positions, why not put small cities inside the ships (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaseOnWheels)? There would still be planetary cities where most of the population resides, and larger orbital facilities where the ships are constructed, but something just feels dirty sending dwarves away from the hold to entirely different stars for Gods know what, that's the sort of things elves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElvesVsDwarves) do.

Well, if we follow the Doctor Who metaphor, isn't it hypothetically possible to do what the Daleks did in the last season finale, and make it so the wooden door is just a wooden door? The overlay between the singularity and the darkship would still exist, mind you. After all, the TARDIS was still bigger on the inside than outside. However, the difference is that the darkship would be vulnerable to the singularity.

Yes, but that was just totally random technobabble. You may as well come out of nowhere and say you've a special anti-darkship ray that works by inexplicable means.

It's not impossible to do, but that kind of plot-device deployment generally requires all players' consent before it is used, for obvious reasons.

I frequent the site on account of being a playgrounder, if that counts. Now, a question regarding the plausibility of the capitol ship concept I have for the Golugani:

My people are, in summary, dwarves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame) in space (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne?from=Main.RecycledINSPACE). I figure, since dwarves have a love of family and defensive positions, why not put small cities inside the ships (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BaseOnWheels)? There would still be planetary cities where most of the population resides, and larger orbital facilities where the ships are constructed, but something just feels dirty sending dwarves away from the hold to entirely different stars for Gods know what, that's the sort of things elves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElvesVsDwarves) do.

Well, that's been done a number of times, I believe. Warhammer-we-rip-off-everything-in-sight-40,000 has done it with their current crypto-space-dwarves, called the Demiurg.

I see. Do the Demiurg use a series of aqueducts to distribute water to the population from a primary canal that feeds into the sewer system that leads back to the cleaning/filtering systems that feed the water back to the artificial dam lake that feeds water back to the primary canal?

Lot of impurities in the metal of asteroids, and you have to do something with that ice.

Dwarves? What happened to the fish?

They were retconned away when I realized that my nanorobotics-dependent fish people were aligning themselves with furry-killing robophobes... Not to mention said fish were flung into limbo by said alliance's bueracracy.

I don't recall actually killing any furries so much as just heavily encouraging others to do so. >_>

I recall said encouragement being followed with a zeal that makes Exterminatus look like a skittish Guardsman.

It's not my fault that they make their suits out of highly flammable materials that burn in such pretty colors. :D

*strokes dwarven beard warily*

Every missile in our arsenal is painstakingly crafted with sophisticated artificial intelligence for homing in on targets, short range interdiction fields so that a steady barrage prevents escape, and release an EMP burst with the detonation. These missiles are created by those that have at least fifty years of metalworking experience.

Respect the beard.

It's not my fault that they make their suits out of highly flammable materials that burn in such pretty colors. :D

I'm curious, is your name derived from a certain town, from a certain book series, about a certain dark elf and his companions?

Something tells me that a sophisticated AI won't be terribly keen on offing itself by slamming into a ship.

I'm curious, is your name derived from a certain town, from a certain book series, about a certain dark elf and his companions?

It is, but for no reason other than the fact that I was reading The Halfling's Gem when I found Nationstates.

...I should just toss my passion for Hard Sci-Fi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekov7423el8ye) out the window, shouldn't I?

Not necessarily. You should just realize that if you want to play a hard SF nation, you're going to be on the bottom of the totem pole in terms of any sort of military conflict unless you luck out and find another ultrarare hard SF guy.

That's not to stop you from doing other things though. Diplomacy, small-scale ground actions where the tech disadvantage may not be so bad, stuff like that.

Heretic.

Stop what you're doing, go out and buy/rent 'Forbidden Planet' and watch it. Anyone that confuses Forbidden Planet (possibly the best sci-fi film ever made - they cheated and stole the plot from Shakespere, but still) with Plan Nine From Outer Space (argued by some to be the worst sci-fi film ever made) is a heretic.

Sorry. :p

*Is a heretic.*

Something tells me that a sophisticated AI won't be terribly keen on offing itself by slamming into a ship.

Not necessarily. If it's based on a human mind/personality, it could be motivated by the same things people are motivated by. Therefore, if you could find a person willing to go to ramming speed, you could find an AI to do so.

If it's a more "alien" (ie non-human in thought processes) AI, it could potentially view its own 'life' as expendable, as it can just copy-paste its code and so survive that way.

Then again, it's potentially like that with biological critters that have mind-upload technology too. The best example is probably Rei Ayanami from Eva.

Something tells me that a sophisticated AI won't be terribly keen on offing itself by slamming into a ship.If the missiles detonated on impact, maybe, but these are big missiles. They detonate upon destruction, and having a ramming prow in front. So, it's somewhere between 'missile' and 'automated fightercraft.'

Something tells me that a sophisticated AI won't be terribly keen on offing itself by slamming into a ship.



You're assuming that it's A) self-aware/sapient, and B) that self-preservation is highly valued.


A well designed AI, if it has a value system, should have one designed to facilitate it's purpose. "Do what I tell you," should probably be near the top.

You're assuming that it's A) self-aware/sapient, and B) that self-preservation is highly valued.


A well designed AI, if it has a value system, should have one designed to facilitate it's purpose. "Do what I tell you," should probably be near the top.In our case, we highlight a series of targets as metaphorical 'dots' and highlight friendlies as metaphorical 'squares' and tell them to connect the dots in the order specified without touching any squares. Self-preservation is a priority only so far as when it doesn't interfere in the primary function.