NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, Temporal IS dimensional. Its as I told you, Time is the fourth dimension. Fourth of many. Anything affecting that would count as a dimensional effect. This is discussed in honest-to-goodness physical textbooks. Just because its beyond your grade level doesn't mean I'm lying when I talk about it.

And I find it amusing myself that you decide to accuse me of wankery when you use a weapon from the exact same archetype you so rail against. God forbid I should have a mechanism designed to render an insta-smish aspect of a tech I, like many, disagree with. God forbid I should have an RP-based defense for something that I feel is untenable in an RP. I don't hippity hop into different dimensions in combat. I don't have weapons that can ignore your shields because they're out of phase or some shite... well the Tachyon weapons were but I had those suckers balanced and I don't use 'em much anymore anyway.

You did that on purpose, didn't you? Just to provoke some form of reaction so you could roam around the rooftops hollering at the injustice of it all when you discovered I had a countermeasure? The device has been a longstanding aspect of Godulan technology that honestly NEVER saw use, if only for lack of necessity, until you decided to poke at it. Whoop! Silly me! I should just let my ship get insta-vaped because it'd make you feel big.

Dude, it ain't either of our threads. It ain't really necessary for you to be all protective of the nature of your 'pirates' if its generally expected that the suckers ain't gonna live to see the next day... or hour. Prates was telling me earlier that he was hoping somebody wouldn't try to come in and conquer him in his own intro thread. And in you come, with a few pirates that you seem disturbingly reluctant to part with and you start causing Sephrioth to haul in his own battlefleets and a whole bunch of other crap and dammit Prates didn't even have very many warships in the system to begin with. Your two wounded battleships practically outgun his entire system defense force! Shoo, he was telling me he'd kinda hoped it'd be uneventful!

I'd like to note that I haven't seen him on MSN in...several weeks. It's only conquering if you actually, yaknow, conquer him. I did that last time he showed up and Tannelol got all touchy about it. Sephs battlefleet was 4 destroyers, 2 BBs, and like 6 cruisers. Amazingly huge indeed. And It's not like I have to simply let you go and bitchslap them across the universe. You have 5(only count I ever saw) kythons, some 5 of Prates ships, which got a nod of "Hey, they shot at us, give them a couple whacks if you wanna.", a Boozian, 2 Solari Battleships, and whatever EX pulls out. All of that against... 6 basically undamaged cruisers, 1 crippled cruiser, and 2 badly damaged cruisers(at my last count). Even a glancing hit from a missile or shell should smear a kython across space for a bit. And massed battery of cfrac shot should be doing extremely unpleasant things to anything between it and the point at which the cloud loses its density. At point blank, where secondaries and PD are going to be ripping it up as well, you should realistically have Kythons going splat. But that doesn't matter. They're there to teach us tactics. With their obscure weaknesses, stupid abilities, and your refusal to let the stupid things die. Real useful teaching us tactics. I'm awed by your ability to engage in combat without using something so illogical that it makes my brain want to hemorrhage.

A tech you disagree with? Says the self-proclaimed master of dimensional technology. It's rather hard to claim something you've ADMITTED to never using as "long standing".

Temporal is Temporal. Dimensional should really fall under Temporal, as was previously stated. Temporal is not Dimensional simply because you insist it is.

No, you just hippity hop around like jack rabbits on crack. TacFTL is weak. I can do it too, wanna see me? It's really not that hard. Still makes you look stupid. Weapons that ignore shields no, shields that ignore weapons... And defy logic, yes. Can you explain why your shields are good against the most hostile of extradimensional environments, and let you survive the most adverse conditions imaginable, and yet a few hundred tons of .6c slug can do them damage?

I brought in less ships than he had. He has been convinced by some dumbasses that since he's new, his tech has to suck ass. I'm not gonna argue with him. If he'll let me break his saucers in half with a single slug, more power to him.

Sorry to butt-in here, but just out of common curiosity, is that the same Sephy that used to spawn massive fleets out of the nether and declare himself infallible? If so then I'd like to put a gold star on him and say well done for becoming a better rp'er (or at least for not using a fuck-ton of ships.):p

Sorry to butt-in here, but just out of common curiosity, is that the same Sephy that used to spawn massive fleets out of the nether and declare himself infallible? If so then I'd like to put a gold star on him and say well done for becoming a better rp'er (or at least for not using a fuck-ton of ships.):p

Yes, it is.

Good job, Seph!

Anyway, I'm with Godular...I hate guys who just go into an intro thread and spam-load an attack just to simply get a battle going, and who can't actually RP other stuff.
I was in that thread (I'm Progenitor), but it got to me...

I'd like to note that I haven't seen him on MSN in...several weeks. It's only conquering if you actually, yaknow, conquer him. I did that last time he showed up and Tannelol got all touchy about it. Sephs battlefleet was 4 destroyers, 2 BBs, and like 6 cruisers. Amazingly huge indeed. And It's not like I have to simply let you go and bitchslap them across the universe. You have 5(only count I ever saw) kythons, some 5 of Prates ships, which got a nod of "Hey, they shot at us, give them a couple whacks if you wanna.", a Boozian, 2 Solari Battleships, and whatever EX pulls out. All of that against... 6 basically undamaged cruisers, 1 crippled cruiser, and 2 badly damaged cruisers(at my last count). Even a glancing hit from a missile or shell should smear a kython across space for a bit. And massed battery of cfrac shot should be doing extremely unpleasant things to anything between it and the point at which the cloud loses its density. At point blank, where secondaries and PD are going to be ripping it up as well, you should realistically have Kythons going splat. But that doesn't matter. They're there to teach us tactics. With their obscure weaknesses, stupid abilities, and your refusal to let the stupid things die. Real useful teaching us tactics. I'm awed by your ability to engage in combat without using something so illogical that it makes my brain want to hemorrhage.

Actually, he was talking with me the day he opened the thread and also hoped that I'd be the first to post, and he also kinda responded to your entry with something close to exasperation.

Your 'pirate' ships are having to keep an eye on multiple other fleets roaming around the area while I am under no such hindrance. Unless you have developed some wankish means of focusing 'All Firepower' on all fronts at all times or some shit I ain't taking the full brunt of your firepower. Your pirate ships are also wounded, while the Kythons were going in fresh. A few shots even from the kind of weaponry that can cause them pain is not going to be sufficient to annihilate them or even cause them significant harm in the initial stages of the fight. And perhaps if you did not try to use shit that was equally 'illogical' on me, you might not experience that problem, hmm? As they say, if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the fire. If you hadn't used 'That Torpedo' on my ships, instead focusing on more conventional weapons that go thump and boom, we would not be having this conversation. But nope. You had to use that torpedo. You had to trigger a defense I'd had for an exceptionally long time but had never before actually found necessary to utilize. You had to take umbrage about it. Its your own damn fault.

A tech you disagree with? Says the self-proclaimed master of dimensional technology. It's rather hard to claim something you've ADMITTED to never using as "long standing".

I've never used it before because the situation has never come up. Nobody has ever tried to directly shunt me to another dimension before, so the countermeasure was not necessary. Just because I've only used it once does not necessarily mean I pulled it out of my ass. I developed the Plasmatic Pulse Disintegrator, even had a nice big thread for the weapons test... since then... never used it. Used Plasmatic Pulse Bombs as self destruct devices, but never the actual gun. Why? Because the guns are defensive in nature. If somebody invades Godulan Territory again there's a good chance they'll take a big honking shot up the butt. Does that mean I pulled it out of my ass?

And I never proclaimed myself as the 'Master of Dimensional Tech'. For the love of whatever deity that has the potential of existing at this particular point in time, don't put words in my mouth. You seem to be making a habit out of doing so and it is VERY aggravating.

I have spent a very long time 'IC Researching' Dimensional Tech, yes. I am good friends with Balrogga, ICly and OOCly, and he has been doing it for a while as well. Even so, we do not claim to be 'The Masters' of Dimensional Tech. Perhaps you have taken our little Dimensional Symposium thing the wrong way? After all, it is simply an effort by us to keep people from using it along the same lines of folks using 'Temporal Tech' to go back and time and kill the grandparents of another nation's critical characters. Is it bad for us to want to seek such a goal?

Temporal is Temporal. Dimensional should really fall under Temporal, as was previously stated. Temporal is not Dimensional simply because you insist it is.

And I say you are wrong. This is not my insistence, this is BONE BASIC FUGGIN PHYSICS, this is the bloody frickin' Textbooks talking. Time is a dimension. 'Temporal' thereby falls as a subset of 'Dimensional', people who have not even taken a college physics course have actually told me straight up that the whole thing is pretty much in the category of "Things that make you say 'Duh!'" Just because you don't have a bloody clue does not mean that those who DO are lying to you.

By the same token of your reasoning, does saying that Gravity is 'Only A Theory' somehow increase the probability of flying into space the next time you jump upwards? Does saying that Evolution is 'Only A Theory' increase the probability of a chicken egg inexplicably hatching a baby Tyrannosaur? Dunno about you but I am a tad skeptical.

No, you just hippity hop around like jack rabbits on crack. TacFTL is weak. I can do it too, wanna see me? It's really not that hard. Still makes you look stupid. Weapons that ignore shields no, shields that ignore weapons... And defy logic, yes. Can you explain why your shields are good against the most hostile of extradimensional environments, and let you survive the most adverse conditions imaginable, and yet a few hundred tons of .6c slug can do them damage?

Can you get into your thick head that the question is moot? Your torpedo did not shunt me into YOUR other dimension. I had specifically defended myself against people doing that kind of shit to my vessels as a counter to Temporal Erasure, which despite its name, is pretty much the exact same bloody process, according to the definition we were given.

As for TacFTL, it only looks stupid to you because you don't like it. A lot of folks have the capacity to do it, but there also seems to be a similarly large number of folks who despise the act of doing so because they can't get their heads away from the 'Two Sides Shooting At Each Other' Trench-Warfare vision of FT fleet combat. ONOZ I DO NOT CONFORM TO YOUR PERSONALLY DESIGNED MOLD! I MUST HANG MYSELF WITH MINE OWN INTESTINES!

I brought in less ships than he had. He has been convinced by some dumbasses that since he's new, his tech has to suck ass. I'm not gonna argue with him. If he'll let me break his saucers in half with a single slug, more power to him.

And he actually wanted me in as some form of insurance against folks what tried bringing trouble into his system. I'm gonna be perfectly willing to give him technology that is not 'Godulan' (and thereby under your apparent definition 'Wankish') in nature but would likely knock the socks off of anybody else who ever tries to pester him again. I'm actually trying to... you know... help the guy. God forbid that I should try to improve somebody's RP capabilities in this whole thing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, Thrashia, yeah, I've noted that Sephrioth has been trying a bit lately to improve his RP skills a bit. Me and Bal are actually thinking about the possibility of starting up some non-combat RP to see if we can get him up to actually posting three or four lines in a single post.

Your 'pirate' ships are having to keep an eye on multiple other fleets roaming around the area while I am under no such hindrance. Unless you have developed some wankish means of focusing 'All Firepower' on all fronts at all times or some shit I ain't taking the full brunt of your firepower.

So you're able to wizz-bang through all this ordnance that's such a hindrance to TSL? Yet he's the wanker? You're both dancing through a storm of fire and shrapnel; who's attacking who is rather irrelevant in the big picture of things, you know.

And in any case: it's not really hard to you know, whoop someones ass with one blow when they decide to dive directly for your fist.

Your pirate ships are also wounded, while the Kythons were going in fresh. A few shots even from the kind of weaponry that can cause them pain is not going to be sufficient to annihilate them or even cause them significant harm in the initial stages of the fight.

What does this matter? Someone with a broken leg and someone whose never been sick in his life will still die the same if they're thrown into a wood chipper.

And perhaps if you did not try to use shit that was equally 'illogical' on me, you might not experience that problem, hmm? As they say, if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the fire.

Because a torpedo that opens up a dimensional rift is so illogical? Don't we do that all the time for general space travel?

If you hadn't used 'That Torpedo' on my ships, instead focusing on more conventional weapons that go thump and boom, we would not be having this conversation. But nope. You had to use that torpedo. You had to trigger a defense I'd had for an exceptionally long time but had never before actually found necessary to utilize. You had to take umbrage about it. Its your own damn fault.

Yeah, it's his fault you disagree with his weapons, and the onus is upon him to please your ass. Though the same can't be said for you: when did you ask TSL if your Quantum Render things were permissible under his paradigm? Oops, you didn't, how surprising.

I've never used it before because the situation has never come up. Nobody has ever tried to directly shunt me to another dimension before, so the countermeasure was not necessary.

I think Abh tried to do that and you magicked out of it.

And I never proclaimed myself as the 'Master of Dimensional Tech'. For the love of whatever deity that has the potential of existing at this particular point in time, don't put words in my mouth. You seem to be making a habit out of doing so and it is VERY aggravating.

Nah, you just think you're the master of tactics, there is a difference indeed.

I have spent a very long time 'IC Researching' Dimensional Tech, yes. I am good friends with Balrogga, ICly and OOCly, and he has been doing it for a while as well. Even so, we do not claim to be 'The Masters' of Dimensional Tech. Perhaps you have taken our little Dimensional Symposium thing the wrong way? After all, it is simply an effort by us to keep people from using it along the same lines of folks using 'Temporal Tech' to go back and time and kill the grandparents of another nation's critical characters. Is it bad for us to want to seek such a goal?

Uh, yeah? No one liked the TA, many people openly mocked it and its members for the very good reason that most of them were fucking morons who followed some idiot who claimed to be an expert in a field that did not exist. Wanting a repeat of that is just asking for trouble no one wants to make fun of, again.

And I say you are wrong. This is not my insistence, this is BONE BASIC FUGGIN PHYSICS, this is the bloody frickin' Textbooks talking. Time is a dimension. 'Temporal' thereby falls as a subset of 'Dimensional', people who have not even taken a college physics course have actually told me straight up that the whole thing is pretty much in the category of "Things that make you say 'Duh!'" Just because you don't have a bloody clue does not mean that those who DO are lying to you.

... Show me where the this textbook said that temporal technology as Indra 'pioneered' is a subset of dimensional technology? Guess what, you can't: it's impossible to even consider. Temporal Erasure and all other manners of stupid shit that poured forth from that fiasco could ERASE things from the timeline. Effecting ALL dimensions, whereas manipulating length, width, height, and the other entirely theoretical (and wholly unknown in property) dimensions do not. Since when did making something longer vaporize it from the timeline?

By the same token of your reasoning, does saying that Gravity is 'Only A Theory' somehow increase the probability of flying into space the next time you jump upwards? Does saying that Evolution is 'Only A Theory' increase the probability of a chicken egg inexplicably hatching a baby Tyrannosaur? Dunno about you but I am a tad skeptical.

Not the same theories. String theory is proven only through math and not by any other means: the existence of those extra dimensions is based solely upon our understanding of mathematics, and even then we have no idea how those dimensions are supposed to work. Whereas with gravity, evolution, and any other theory we have today in mainstream science can at least in some way be observed.

Can you get into your thick head that the question is moot? Your torpedo did not shunt me into YOUR other dimension. I had specifically defended myself against people doing that kind of shit to my vessels as a counter to Temporal Erasure, which despite its name, is pretty much the exact same bloody process, according to the definition we were given.

Which means you just totally ignored damage because you didn't agree with the weapon, fun. With that in mind I guess TSL can ignore everything you ever throw at him if he deigns it necessary, since there is nothing intrinsically special about you or your weapons that makes them perfectly acceptable.

As for TacFTL, it only looks stupid to you because you don't like it. A lot of folks have the capacity to do it, but there also seems to be a similarly large number of folks who despise the act of doing so because they can't get their heads away from the 'Two Sides Shooting At Each Other' Trench-Warfare vision of FT fleet combat. ONOZ I DO NOT CONFORM TO YOUR PERSONALLY DESIGNED MOLD! I MUST HANG MYSELF WITH MINE OWN INTESTINES!

People despise it because it's a dumb tactic (You'd die trying it against me or anyone else with a brain and an understanding of defensive systems), and because it's bad RP: not because it makes you the invincible general you think you are. I in fact think we all had a conversation about this earlier in this thread, which ended in you conceding utterly.

And he actually wanted me in as some form of insurance against folks what tried bringing trouble into his system. I'm gonna be perfectly willing to give him technology that is not 'Godulan' (and thereby under your apparent definition 'Wankish') in nature but would likely knock the socks off of anybody else who ever tries to pester him again. I'm actually trying to... you know... help the guy. God forbid that I should try to improve somebody's RP capabilities in this whole thing.

And what do you think everyone else is doing, trying to ruin his RP? Well Mister Saint of NationStates RP, forgive us for being worthless pieces of shit :rolleyes:.

So you're able to wizz-bang through all this ordnance that's such a hindrance to TSL? Yet he's the wanker? You're both dancing through a storm of fire and shrapnel; who's attacking who is rather irrelevant in the big picture of things, you know.

And in any case: it's not really hard to you know, whoop someones ass with one blow when they decide to dive directly for your fist.

But they aren't, that's the big thing. They were actually taking quite a significant number of precautions in their initial dive.

What does this matter? Someone with a broken leg and someone whose never been sick in his life will still die the same if they're thrown into a wood chipper.

That is of course assuming that a woodchipper is a proper analogy. Thrown into a woodchipper or just thrown into a battlezone? In the case of the latter the healthier one might prove more capable of taking care of himself do you not agree?

Because a torpedo that opens up a dimensional rift is so illogical? Don't we do that all the time for general space travel?

Because making OTHER ships do it against their will is not quite the same as doing it yourself, and because that also assumes that having a countermeasure to direct the rift elsewhere is illogical while the other is not. Pick and choose much?

Yeah, it's his fault you disagree with his weapons, and the onus is upon him to please your ass. Though the same can't be said for you: when did you ask TSL if your Quantum Render things were permissible under his paradigm? Oops, you didn't, how surprising.

Because they're conventional-ish weapons despite the exotic description? They hit and they cause damage? They do not hit and cause the targeted ship to transform into a cloud of bunnies? Therefore there is no need to ask permission?

I think Abh tried to do that and you magicked out of it.

Actually it WAS a similar effect, but It also involved me voluntarily trundling in, rather than getting thrown in against my will. Not quite the same thing, doesn't cause the mechanism to trigger.

Nah, you just think you're the master of tactics, there is a difference indeed.

Not so in that case either. I consider myself good at tactics, but I do not believe myself to be 'TEH MASTER OMGZ'.

Uh, yeah? No one liked the TA, many people openly mocked it and its members for the very good reason that most of them were fucking morons who followed some idiot who claimed to be an expert in a field that did not exist. Wanting a repeat of that is just asking for trouble no one wants to make fun of, again.

And not many folks used Temporal Tech Either. The countermeasure was focused against the slim few that might seek to actually use the crap in the Temporal Accord thread. It wasn't intended to see use but in those specific circumstances.

... Show me where the this textbook said that temporal technology as Indra 'pioneered' is a subset of dimensional technology? Guess what, you can't: it's impossible to even consider. Temporal Erasure and all other manners of stupid shit that poured forth from that fiasco could ERASE things from the timeline. Effecting ALL dimensions, whereas manipulating length, width, height, and the other entirely theoretical (and wholly unknown in property) dimensions do not. Since when did making something longer vaporize it from the timeline?

Time is a dimension. All the other dimensions are a part of this dimension. Whether Time happens to be more difficult to affect, and has curious causal issues in the event that somebody SHOULD affect it, does not change the fact that Time is still but one dimension among many. There is no Sci-Fi element to this. None. This is a simple basic fundamental of Physics. Not in regards to Temporal Tech, but in regards to the relation between time and the other dimensions. Time is not an overarching entity that controls all of the others. It is simply one of many other dimensions.

Not the same theories. String theory is proven only through math and not by any other means: the existence of those extra dimensions is based solely upon our understanding of mathematics, and even then we have no idea how those dimensions are supposed to work. Whereas with gravity, evolution, and any other theory we have today in mainstream science can at least in some way be observed.

But as part of our understanding of Gravity in and of itself we find a method to empirically observe the nature of these mathematically derived dimensions. It has actually been done, particularly in research exploring the relation between Gamma and Time. I speak not of String Theory, but of General Relativity, something that has significantly greater basis in researched findings.

Which means you just totally ignored damage because you didn't agree with the weapon, fun. With that in mind I guess TSL can ignore everything you ever throw at him if he deigns it necessary, since there is nothing intrinsically special about you or your weapons that makes them perfectly acceptable.

Please take note that the shunt disruptor itself leads to a place that is volatile for its own reasons, and that I actually DID take damage from the Torpedo because of that volatility. Be so kind as to be aware of that.

People despise it because it's a dumb tactic (You'd die trying it against me or anyone else with a brain and an understanding of defensive systems), and because it's bad RP: not because it makes you the invincible general you think you are. I in fact think we all had a conversation about this earlier in this thread, which ended in you conceding utterly.

No, I believe that particular conversation was about something else entirely. Not so much tac-jumping but in the manner of how one should advance their nation. As GMC so bluntly told me, one can achieve anything in NS if they are decent enough at writing to drive their capabilities home. While I might accept Miehm's torpedos, it would also be nice of him to accept my disruptor.

Besides, if you have a counter to tac-jumping, so be it. As long as it is reasonable I'd have no reason to gripe or moan about it. But then I also have no reason to shoot at you right now either, so I don't see how there is much of a point to discussing the possibility of the whole thing.

And what do you think everyone else is doing, trying to ruin his RP? Well Mister Saint of NationStates RP, forgive us for being worthless pieces of shit :rolleyes:.

I forgives ya! Cuz I's is nice!

But really yeah kinda. In the same manner of Balrogga's faux pas of having a ship materialize directly in the midst of a hostile fleet in order to show off his 'skillz', you sent a big honking warfleet of your own for a 'Diplomatic' Mission. Dude. Overboard.

But they aren't, that's the big thing. They were actually taking quite a significant number of precautions in their initial dive.

So you actually took caution? Thus moving in a more predictable manner than before? Meaning any decent FT targeting system can blow you away because you're not acting like a swarm of bees on PCP?

That is of course assuming that a woodchipper is a proper analogy. Thrown into a woodchipper or just thrown into a battlezone? In the case of the latter the healthier one might prove more capable of taking care of himself do you not agree?

I assumed that one could get the analogy without it having to be spelled out to them: the woodchipper is TSL's guns, or hell: anyone's guns. The injured/healthy men represent the 'hurt' and 'fresh men you talked about earlier. The fact they are being thrown into a woodchipper is because they've decided to get that close to it: IE you to TSL's vessels. Does this perhaps clear everything up to the point you can rebut the point and not nitpick needlessly?

Because making OTHER ships do it against their will is not quite the same as doing it yourself, and because that also assumes that having a countermeasure to direct the rift elsewhere is illogical while the other is not. Pick and choose much?

The affect is the same even if the mechanism is different. Therefore it is not an illogical weapon in any sense. Unless it is illogical to make ships explode, since such is certainly against their will when hit by a torpedo. It is also rather illogical to have a counter-measure in the manner you describe: it's the difference between WWII marine armor that can stop a .22 round, and armor that takes a naval bombardment to crack. The only one doing picking and choosing is you, as per usual.

Because they're conventional-ish weapons despite the exotic description? They hit and they cause damage? They do not hit and cause the targeted ship to transform into a cloud of bunnies? Therefore there is no need to ask permission?

See, this is where your entire argument contradicts itself: it's ok to be hit by a weapon that causes damage, but not by a weapon that causes damage. Whether you explode in a nuclear fire-ball or you are transformed into a cloud of sherbet; the end result is the same: you're dead via weapon.

Actually it WAS a similar effect, but It also involved me voluntarily trundling in, rather than getting thrown in against my will. Not quite the same thing, doesn't cause the mechanism to trigger.

Same in that you totally ignored any damage from the entire ordeal, which is essentially the problem here.

Not so in that case either. I consider myself good at tactics, but I do not believe myself to be 'TEH MASTER OMGZ'.

So good that you needed to invent wanktastic technology and units to beat everyone else who uses such easily defeatable tactics. Funny how that works.

And not many folks used Temporal Tech Either. The countermeasure was focused against the slim few that might seek to actually use the crap in the Temporal Accord thread. It wasn't intended to see use but in those specific circumstances.

How does this address the point about making TA mk.II being a bad idea?

Time is a dimension. All the other dimensions are a part of this dimension. Whether Time happens to be more difficult to affect, and has curious causal issues in the event that somebody SHOULD affect it, does not change the fact that Time is still but one dimension among many.

Time is the felt effect of a dimension: going forward or backwards in time affects all other dimensions (the three we know exist) but the alterations to those others dimensions does not affect time. So how again can time be a subset of a system of things that only it can manipulate unless you're trying to argue semantics and in which case we should all just ignore the point you're trying to make about it?

There is no Sci-Fi element to this. None. This is a simple basic fundamental of Physics. Not in regards to Temporal Tech, but in regards to the relation between time and the other dimensions. Time is not an overarching entity that controls all of the others. It is simply one of many other dimensions.

Many being three that we know of, three that cannot alter time but may be altered by time. And in any case, I believe it was you arguing from Indra's definition, abandoning that position are we?

But as part of our understanding of Gravity in and of itself we find a method to empirically observe the nature of these mathematically derived dimensions. It has actually been done, particularly in research exploring the relation between Gamma and Time. I speak not of String Theory, but of General Relativity, something that has significantly greater basis in researched findings.

We haven't observed these dimensions beyond "Hay doc, $_number!" We have observed gravity just by falling down; we've observed evolution throw countless experiments: we've never observed any of the other dimensions.

Please take note that the shunt disruptor itself leads to a place that is volatile for its own reasons, and that I actually DID take damage from the Torpedo because of that volatility. Be so kind as to be aware of that.

A paper cut is not damage, just as hubris is not fact.

No, I believe that particular conversation was about something else entirely. Not so much tac-jumping but in the manner of how one should advance their nation. As GMC so bluntly told me, one can achieve anything in NS if they are decent enough at writing to drive their capabilities home. While I might accept Miehm's torpedos, it would also be nice of him to accept my disruptor.

... No. It evolved into you, Xenon, Bal, and everyone else being told to shove it if you think everyone has to follow a set of arbitrary rules to be big. It started with Bal (and you defending him like some sort of jealous boyfriend) ignoring FTLi fields so they could warp all over the place like 'rabbits on crack.' Something you and everyone else on your side quickly moved away from and on to other fields that appeared to have ground which you could properly defend.

Besides, if you have a counter to tac-jumping, so be it. As long as it is reasonable I'd have no reason to gripe or moan about it. But then I also have no reason to shoot at you right now either, so I don't see how there is much of a point to discussing the possibility of the whole thing.

... I think the point I tried to drive home was that tac-jumping is just a bad idea: 1) it's just stupid and will cause you do die. 2) it makes for bad RP. Going on about having no trouble accepting it is rather out there all things considered.

I forgives ya! Cuz I's is nice!

But really yeah kinda. In the same manner of Balrogga's faux pas of having a ship materialize directly in the midst of a hostile fleet in order to show off his 'skillz', you sent a big honking warfleet of your own for a 'Diplomatic' Mission. Dude. Overboard.

A warfleet implies that A) my purpose is to whoop your ass, and that B) my actual military got involved. If A and B were true then you'd all be in a lot more pain right now than from a pirate militia from TSL. Then again had you read my post you'd know this, but you have enough trouble trying to cover up the multitude of logical 'holes (being generous with that adjective)' you create every time a discussion like this arises, so I guess I ought not blame you.

So you actually took caution? Thus moving in a more predictable manner than before? Meaning any decent FT targeting system can blow you away because you're not acting like a swarm of bees on PCP?

Actually moving more like a swarm of bees on PCP. Less like a swarm of arrows.

I assumed that one could get the analogy without it having to be spelled out to them: the woodchipper is TSL's guns, or hell: anyone's guns. The injured/healthy men represent the 'hurt' and 'fresh men you talked about earlier. The fact they are being thrown into a woodchipper is because they've decided to get that close to it: IE you to TSL's vessels. Does this perhaps clear everything up to the point you can rebut the point and not nitpick needlessly?

No, because its wrong as I said. I don't really need to.

The affect is the same even if the mechanism is different. Therefore it is not an illogical weapon in any sense. Unless it is illogical to make ships explode, since such is certainly against their will when hit by a torpedo. It is also rather illogical to have a counter-measure in the manner you describe: it's the difference between WWII marine armor that can stop a .22 round, and armor that takes a naval bombardment to crack. The only one doing picking and choosing is you, as per usual.

More like body-armor and the concept of Chaff.

See, this is where your entire argument contradicts itself: it's ok to be hit by a weapon that causes damage, but not by a weapon that causes damage. Whether you explode in a nuclear fire-ball or you are transformed into a cloud of sherbet; the end result is the same: you're dead via weapon.

No, Its more along the lines of me saying I'd be okay with getting shot by a bullet, but not by getting 'wished' into the stratosphere to fall to my death.

Same in that you totally ignored any damage from the entire ordeal, which is essentially the problem here.

But I did not, which is the problem with your problem.

So good that you needed to invent wanktastic technology and units to beat everyone else who uses such easily defeatable tactics. Funny how that works.

Funny how you see so many problems with having 'limits to what I would deal with'. I never liked Indra's Temporal Tech, but I won't confine myself from RPing with it so long as the conventional aspects are used and not the exotic elements, and this was a mechanism against the part I liked least, the most exotic of the elements in that technology tree. TSL's torpedo does the same bloody thing and thereby is affected by the same countermeasure.

How does this address the point about making TA mk.II being a bad idea?

Lemme letcha in on a little sekret: I was never keen on it m'self. People RP as they want to RP and whatever modicum of regulation comes from elsewhere. I despise the notion of putting up any kind of specific ruleset simply because it gives folks like you reason to think we're being uppity.

Time is the felt effect of a dimension: going forward or backwards in time affects all other dimensions (the three we know exist) but the alterations to those others dimensions does not affect time. So how again can time be a subset of a system of things that only it can manipulate unless you're trying to argue semantics and in which case we should all just ignore the point you're trying to make about it?

Many being three that we know of, three that cannot alter time but may be altered by time. And in any case, I believe it was you arguing from Indra's definition, abandoning that position are we?

No, because you're incorrect. Time marches on in its own manner, but it is still but a simple dimension. It might be intrinsically tied to the manner it affects things, but so too do all the other dimensions affect each other in equally unbreakable ways. Just because time marches on does not mean that the qualities of Length, width, and depth do not. As one moves in space, they alter their personal flow of time ever so slightly, particularly according to General Relativity.

And I was operating off of Indra's definition of Temporal Erasure. Truth be told I could care less about his ideas concerning the nature of time and space beyond that aspect. As a matter of fact, it was the whole notion of Temporal Erasure that set me towards putting in the countermeasure. I knew that despite the ridicule it typically recieves, some folks would still use it. And some jackass out there would make an attempt to use the concept of booting folks to another dimension as a weapon.

We haven't observed these dimensions beyond "Hay doc, $_number!" We have observed gravity just by falling down; we've observed evolution throw countless experiments: we've never observed any of the other dimensions.

We have observed the nature of time through a simple experiments involving an airplane and the concept of Gamma. Curious how moving through the first three dimensions at such and such a speed influence the passage of time for the individual doing so... hrmz.

A paper cut is not damage, just as hubris is not fact.

Fine one to talk. "You'll die if you TacJump!"

... No. It evolved into you, Xenon, Bal, and everyone else being told to shove it if you think everyone has to follow a set of arbitrary rules to be big. It started with Bal (and you defending him like some sort of jealous boyfriend) ignoring FTLi fields so they could warp all over the place like 'rabbits on crack.' Something you and everyone else on your side quickly moved away from and on to other fields that appeared to have ground which you could properly defend.

... I think the point I tried to drive home was that tac-jumping is just a bad idea: 1) it's just stupid and will cause you do die. 2) it makes for bad RP. Going on about having no trouble accepting it is rather out there all things considered.

See above.

A warfleet implies that A) my purpose is to whoop your ass, and that B) my actual military got involved. If A and B were true then you'd all be in a lot more pain right now than from a pirate militia from TSL. Then again had you read my post you'd know this, but you have enough trouble trying to cover up the multitude of logical 'holes (being generous with that adjective)' you create every time a discussion like this arises, so I guess I ought not blame you.

Thirty ships or more to say hi? Dude, Overboard. Anybody with half a brain what sees a fleet that size suddenly pop in out of nowhere, followed by references of diplomatic negotiations, would start wondering when the other shoe is gonna drop.

In any event. I am bloody tired of this argument over one bloody little weapon/countermeasure interaction. I ain't gonna change anything, Miehm ain't gonna change anything. I did not come into the thread to fight, but figured if it'd help to finish off the explosions sequence faster there shouldn't be any harm in jumping in. But oh gasp! Lets throw some wanky shit! Lets see what happens and actually challenge him to 'try it again'! The countermeasure is there, and as far as I am concerned it is legit. You lot gripe about tac-jumping, I gripe about dimension shunting. You have countermeasures for Tac-jumping that will 'kill you if you try', I have countermeasures for dimension shunting that prevents it from being a viable option as well, yet you claim both justification and higher ground in saying that mine is unfair. You said *I* was picking and choosing?

Actually moving more like a swarm of bees on PCP. Less like a swarm of arrows.

Because that analogy works.

No, because its wrong as I said. I don't really need to.

Wrong predicated upon the fact you think yourself so superior TSL could not possibly kill you with his own guns when you tac-jump right into his weapons. Great to see you still think yourself so excellent, there.

More like body-armor and the concept of Chaff.

Indeed, because chaff can be compared to ninjaing out of the way of an incoming torpedo because you don't personally like the weapon :rolleyes:.

No, Its more along the lines of me saying I'd be okay with getting shot by a bullet, but not by getting 'wished' into the stratosphere to fall to my death.

And how is that relevant? If you die you die: be it by a nuke or a being hit with a super laser. Last I checked we don't get to pick how we're killed.

But I did not, which is the problem with your problem.

Did any of your ships kersplode when hit by these torpedoes? If you've checked no, then please kick yourself into the concept of damage evading has manifested itself in your brain.

Funny how you see so many problems with having 'limits to what I would deal with'. I never liked Indra's Temporal Tech, but I won't confine myself from RPing with it so long as the conventional aspects are used and not the exotic elements, and this was a mechanism against the part I liked least, the most exotic of the elements in that technology tree. TSL's torpedo does the same bloody thing and thereby is affected by the same countermeasure.

I have problems with you setting up limits so you won't be killed, similar to what Xanthal 'did' during that fiasco if you want something to compare it to. Course, yous till haven't rationalized how there is some fundamental error in dying that necessitates counter-measures that make you invincible from ahrm.

Lemme letcha in on a little sekret: I was never keen on it m'self. People RP as they want to RP and whatever modicum of regulation comes from elsewhere. I despise the notion of putting up any kind of specific ruleset simply because it gives folks like you reason to think we're being uppity.

Well if you didn't try to enforce your own subset of rules (which you do) then no one would think you were all a bunch of uppity prats (you are). Then again cause and effect appears lost on you, so I wonder why I bother.

No, because you're incorrect. Time marches on in its own manner, but it is still but a simple dimension. It might be intrinsically tied to the manner it affects things, but so too do all the other dimensions affect each other in equally unbreakable ways. Just because time marches on does not mean that the qualities of Length, width, and depth do not. As one moves in space, they alter their personal flow of time ever so slightly, particularly according to General Relativity.

A simple dimension independent of control. Since time is rate of decay, which in the broadest terms may never be stopped (the universe) but within localized areas may be put off for some menial amount of time. Also there is not 'personal' flow of time; time is time even if perception is skewed under certain conditions.

And I was operating off of Indra's definition of Temporal Erasure. Truth be told I could care less about his ideas concerning the nature of time and space beyond that aspect. As a matter of fact, it was the whole notion of Temporal Erasure that set me towards putting in the countermeasure. I knew that despite the ridicule it typically recieves, some folks would still use it. And some jackass out there would make an attempt to use the concept of booting folks to another dimension as a weapon.

Under Indra's idea of Temporal Erasure, temporal tech is certainly not a subset of dimensional technology (if you could even define what in God's name that is).

Also we only ever get back to you having a counter-measure because you hate the idea of the weapon: granted the rather dubious nature of TE lends more to people *ignoring* it (smart thing) than they do coming up with something equally wanky to put themselves on the same playing field as the temporal transgressors (stupid thing).

We have observed the nature of time through a simple experiments involving an airplane and the concept of Gamma. Curious how moving through the first three dimensions at such and such a speed influence the passage of time for the individual doing so... hrmz.

The passage of time for the individual is subjectively altered, but is that the same for the objective viewer? No. You fail.

Fine one to talk. "You'll die if you TacJump!"

I'm not working off the assumption that it is a good idea, similar to diving into a put of lit napalm, unlike yourself.

See above.

I guess ignorance is bliss then, eh?

Thirty ships or more to say hi? Dude, Overboard. Anybody with half a brain what sees a fleet that size suddenly pop in out of nowhere, followed by references of diplomatic negotiations, would start wondering when the other shoe is gonna drop.

Did you read my post? Nope, because you wouldn't have said anything even resembling this if you had an understood it. Thus, you fail.

In any event. I am bloody tired of this argument over one bloody little weapon/countermeasure interaction. I ain't gonna change anything, Miehm ain't gonna change anything. I did not come into the thread to fight, but figured if it'd help to finish off the explosions sequence faster there shouldn't be any harm in jumping in. But oh gasp! Lets throw some wanky shit! Lets see what happens and actually challenge him to 'try it again'! The countermeasure is there, and as far as I am concerned it is legit. You lot gripe about tac-jumping, I gripe about dimension shunting. You have countermeasures for Tac-jumping that will 'kill you if you try', I have countermeasures for dimension shunting that prevents it from being a viable option as well, yet you claim both justification and higher ground in saying that mine is unfair. You said *I* was picking and choosing?

It only looks that way because you're not smart enough to come to the conclusion that tac-jumping = bad (as evidenced by your utilizing the 'tactic'), and because you think ignoring, in totality, damage from weapons because they make your kythons cry is a legitimate excuse. Your entire problem is that you think dimensional shunting and sanity are two similar things.

Kythons are a dumb idea except as a conversation piece anyways. Something that absorbs all energy and can eat anything to replicate itself is wanky in the extreme and should only be used as an antagonist, not to wank yourself to victory.

Actually, he was talking with me the day he opened the thread and also hoped that I'd be the first to post, and he also kinda responded to your entry with something close to exasperation.

Your 'pirate' ships are having to keep an eye on multiple other fleets roaming around the area while I am under no such hindrance. Unless you have developed some wankish means of focusing 'All Firepower' on all fronts at all times or some shit I ain't taking the full brunt of your firepower. Your pirate ships are also wounded, while the Kythons were going in fresh. A few shots even from the kind of weaponry that can cause them pain is not going to be sufficient to annihilate them or even cause them significant harm in the initial stages of the fight. And perhaps if you did not try to use shit that was equally 'illogical' on me, you might not experience that problem, hmm? As they say, if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the fire. If you hadn't used 'That Torpedo' on my ships, instead focusing on more conventional weapons that go thump and boom, we would not be having this conversation. But nope. You had to use that torpedo. You had to trigger a defense I'd had for an exceptionally long time but had never before actually found necessary to utilize. You had to take umbrage about it. Its your own damn fault.



I've never used it before because the situation has never come up. Nobody has ever tried to directly shunt me to another dimension before, so the countermeasure was not necessary. Just because I've only used it once does not necessarily mean I pulled it out of my ass. I developed the Plasmatic Pulse Disintegrator, even had a nice big thread for the weapons test... since then... never used it. Used Plasmatic Pulse Bombs as self destruct devices, but never the actual gun. Why? Because the guns are defensive in nature. If somebody invades Godulan Territory again there's a good chance they'll take a big honking shot up the butt. Does that mean I pulled it out of my ass?

And I never proclaimed myself as the 'Master of Dimensional Tech'. For the love of whatever deity that has the potential of existing at this particular point in time, don't put words in my mouth. You seem to be making a habit out of doing so and it is VERY aggravating.

I have spent a very long time 'IC Researching' Dimensional Tech, yes. I am good friends with Balrogga, ICly and OOCly, and he has been doing it for a while as well. Even so, we do not claim to be 'The Masters' of Dimensional Tech. Perhaps you have taken our little Dimensional Symposium thing the wrong way? After all, it is simply an effort by us to keep people from using it along the same lines of folks using 'Temporal Tech' to go back and time and kill the grandparents of another nation's critical characters. Is it bad for us to want to seek such a goal?



And I say you are wrong. This is not my insistence, this is BONE BASIC FUGGIN PHYSICS, this is the bloody frickin' Textbooks talking. Time is a dimension. 'Temporal' thereby falls as a subset of 'Dimensional', people who have not even taken a college physics course have actually told me straight up that the whole thing is pretty much in the category of "Things that make you say 'Duh!'" Just because you don't have a bloody clue does not mean that those who DO are lying to you.

By the same token of your reasoning, does saying that Gravity is 'Only A Theory' somehow increase the probability of flying into space the next time you jump upwards? Does saying that Evolution is 'Only A Theory' increase the probability of a chicken egg inexplicably hatching a baby Tyrannosaur? Dunno about you but I am a tad skeptical.



Can you get into your thick head that the question is moot? Your torpedo did not shunt me into YOUR other dimension. I had specifically defended myself against people doing that kind of shit to my vessels as a counter to Temporal Erasure, which despite its name, is pretty much the exact same bloody process, according to the definition we were given.

As for TacFTL, it only looks stupid to you because you don't like it. A lot of folks have the capacity to do it, but there also seems to be a similarly large number of folks who despise the act of doing so because they can't get their heads away from the 'Two Sides Shooting At Each Other' Trench-Warfare vision of FT fleet combat. ONOZ I DO NOT CONFORM TO YOUR PERSONALLY DESIGNED MOLD! I MUST HANG MYSELF WITH MINE OWN INTESTINES!



And he actually wanted me in as some form of insurance against folks what tried bringing trouble into his system. I'm gonna be perfectly willing to give him technology that is not 'Godulan' (and thereby under your apparent definition 'Wankish') in nature but would likely knock the socks off of anybody else who ever tries to pester him again. I'm actually trying to... you know... help the guy. God forbid that I should try to improve somebody's RP capabilities in this whole thing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, Thrashia, yeah, I've noted that Sephrioth has been trying a bit lately to improve his RP skills a bit. Me and Bal are actually thinking about the possibility of starting up some non-combat RP to see if we can get him up to actually posting three or four lines in a single post.

There are 6 pirates, moving at a high rate of speed, being engaged by exactly 2 separate formations. One is Prates. His ships are well and truly out of it, crippled in passing. That leaves your Kythons as the only target locally. Seph has retreated, and NB is engaging exactly 2 ships, while the BBs engage another. Your dive directly into the guns of Solari Cruisers is contraindicated by the tactical situation, unless Kythons are significantly more robust than logic would indicate. The 6 pirates are effectively unhurt, having been targeted only by Nova Cannon, which are notably inaccurate against an evading target. Cruisers that are convinced they're Fighters qualifies as an evading target. In your wounded man analogy, the pirates have some minor cuts and bruises. There are still 6 of them, and still a round 72 gun barrels tossing 400 tons of shot each. Since you're diving directly into some 28,800 tons of cfrac projectiles, I'd expect there to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I mean, that is after all enough combined weight to make even larger ships blink. Logically, you wouldn't wan up a defense against a trick that usually gets people ignored(temporal erasure), and then expect it to work against a tactic that actually sees occasional use. Since the only difference between shooting someone with a gun(what you suggest), and shoving someone into the path of a bullet(my warp torpedoes) is whether or not they were originally the target, or even if there was a target in the first place.

That's because no one ever contemplated the idea of "instead of bringing the bullet to the enemy, why not bring the enemy to the bullet?" before it would seem. It makes perfect sense when looked at logically. Less chance to dodge, less odds of an intercept by PD. Only flaw is it takes a bullet to make the move, but I'm sure somebody's working on that somewhere. Combine it with regular warheads and you make the enemy try and decide which is more dangerous, getting shot by a bomb, or getting chucked into an eminently hostile dimension?

Dimensional Symposium. See EXs comments about the TA. I rest my case.

There's that appeal to authority again.

Saying that evolution is only a theory DOES state fact however, that it is only a theory. Just as saying that your insistence about the argument of which is subservient to which is just that. Your insistence. If things getting longer made time slow down, as opposed to the PERCEPTION of time slow down, then we'd all be having sex for hours at a time. But it' doesn't. If you perceive time to pass at a slower or faster rate(a possible example would be jet lag, where you gain or lose perceived time), that doesn't mean that you've actually just lost a day. It means that your perception has not yet caught up with reality. Assuming you catch a flight out of Dulles International at 4pm EST, and land in say, LAX, at 4 pm PST, you've still had 4 hours of time. Just because you seemingly "lost" those 4 hours does not mean that the distance you traveled in anyway actually affected the passage of time for anyone else. It affected only your perception of the time. Hooray time zones and their demonstration of why altering distance(length) does not alter time.

The question is not moot. You are ignoring a weapon simply because you don't like what it does. Pick and choose. You could say that the Kython entered Hyper, got bitchslapped by a rock at 300xc, and is now smeared across a massive volume of space. You could also say that it got hit by a mote of dust, likewise traveling at 300xc(these are arbitrary numbers BTW), and has simply lost its shields and has taken damage. Chromsten is immune to propagation because that is you stating an effect on my vessel that I have not allowed. That is known as calling damage. You, on the other hand, get to determine what the kythons got hit by, and how many times faster than light it was going when it happened(superluminal is a given in this scenario, as the dimensions speed of light is significantly higher than ours.) You get to decide just how dead your ships are.

Or maybe they prefer to not have a fight devolve into LOLTACFTL YOUR GUUNZ R TEH SUCKZ!!! I have my ships maneuvering, and acting as though they were fighters. Corkscrews, flikkers, and such other fun maneuvering is a standard part of Solari warfare. Miehmish ships slug like Tyson, Solari ships dance like Ali.

Yeah... Your statement of "It's not wanky but it'll kick ass all over the place." does nothing to inspire my confidence.

Time is a dimension. All the other dimensions are a part of this dimension. Whether Time happens to be more difficult to affect, and has curious causal issues in the event that somebody SHOULD affect it, does not change the fact that Time is still but one dimension among many. There is no Sci-Fi element to this. None. This is a simple basic fundamental of Physics. Not in regards to Temporal Tech, but in regards to the relation between time and the other dimensions. Time is not an overarching entity that controls all of the others. It is simply one of many other dimensions.

The problem with this argument is you're actually conceding with it, since from what I can gather the initial argument from you was that a system designed to protect you from time-based weapons should also protect you from 'dimensional' weapons because time is a dimension. This is an Undistributed Middle fallacy: To put it another way with the words changed,

First: 'Since temporal technology is a subset of dimensional technology, a system designed to protect from temporal technology is designed to protect from dimensional technology, and therefore will protect me from this other piece of dimensional technology.'

Second: 'Since a 9x19mm Parabellum is a subset of bullet technology, a bullet-proof vest that is designed to protect from a 9mm handgun round is designed to protect from bullet technology, and therefore will protect me from this 12-ton rocket-assisted 800mm bullet fired from the Schwerer Gustav railway gun.'

All dimensions are not the same. And all dimensions do not affect one another. Behold, as I add a dimension without changing two others.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Depth.jpg

The other problem here is you're confusing the sci-fi definition of 'dimension' with the scientific one. Science fiction describes as 'dimensions' what should be called alternate universes or other planes of existence, whereas in physics a dimension is just something a physical object can be measured or located by.

You might be able to make a case for the idea that going to another 'dimension' requires you to travel in an exotic dimension to get there [ie that the alternate space is a short distance away but in a direction you can't normally travel in], but then you're arguing that, for example, a device to stop me climbing a ladder should also stop me sidestepping or walking forward in a straight line, since a device that affected all dimensions should be just as able to affect the regular three.

Then again, I imagine you're largely getting this kind of response due to your earlier objections in this thread to broad-effect countermeasures, and because of the percieved wankiness of the whole Kython bit.

I find it unlikely that something designed to protect one from temporal dispersion would prevent one from being sent to a parallel universe.

The other problem here is you're confusing the sci-fi definition of 'dimension' with the scientific one. Science fiction describes as 'dimensions' what should be called alternate universes or other planes of existence, whereas in physics a dimension is just something a physical object can be measured or located by.Well, if he meant that, the 'Time is a dimension among many' point ends up being invalid - time's a dimension (If different from the spatial dimensions insofar as it's allegedly dependent on thermodynamics), but it's not a bubble-universe. As such, I'm pretty certain that he does indeed mean dimensions as in length, width, depth (+ x, I suspect - adding/ removing spatial dimensions at will). He just gets the effects of the same all wrong and confused with bubble universes featuring only the 'Standard' dimensions.

The problem with this is, of course, that adding/ removing spatial dimensions does funny things like collapsing subatomic particles into radiation, eliminating causality *, the likes (There's a nice chart on the problems inherent in additional/ lack of dimensions, actually. I'll see whether I can get it scanned/ translated next weekend). This is hardly surprising - when you end up screwing with basic geometry, changing the value of pi, the likes, it can't be healthy.

And somehow, well... There's no doubt that the total and immediate matter/ energy conversion of a spaceship the moment its matter fails at holding together because additional dimensions fuck with it will do rather a lot of damage, so it's a reasonably (As in, possible-if-it's-possible) feasible weapon. But I doubt that kamikaze-spaceships are in any way desirable.

* Though in fairness, once one has timetravel, causality is either disproven, kept alive via 'Many Worlds', or destroys the universe in the mother of all butterfly effects, so the geometric issues are all one really has to bother with. Granted, all options would render the temporal accord pointless, because the problem is either taking care of itself, or the first one to do (Backwards) timetravel has already killed all of us. No need to control anything - it's harmless.

I guess in that case its simply a matter of perspective. Way I see it, and this is coming from something I'd seen about higher dimensions, Alternate Realities are among the dimensions beyond the fourth. I suppose one could say that the fifth dimension is 'probability' which comes into the issue of alternate realities. Whereas the fourth is just progression along one timeline, the fifth turns into a progression among multiple timelines in the vein of 'If I go a million years into the past and kick a Cro Magnon in the knee, what'll happen in World War II?'

The sixth is sorta being able to see every possible timeline for every possible choice stemming from every possible happenstance... The seventh sorta deals with "Well, that's everything in THAT universe... what if we just go to a different universe entirely? Lets see what happens in a universe where entropy is reversed!" *scrunch* "Well! That was quick! Lets check this one over here!"

Eighth and Ninth are along the lines of "Okay, how does time progress in this one?" and "How do all probabilities check out in these suckers?" and the tenth is just sort of... everything. Ever. What could/would/should/might/maybe/oughta exist/happen/die/trip over a stick.

... 'course... that's all just one theory.

Point of the matter is, when it comes down to it, dimensions and 'bubble universes' aren't separate at all. Its just all one big part of a greater whole. There are 'dimensions' in terms of X Y Z and whatnot, and 'dimensions' in terms of 'Alternate realities' and 'Alternate Universes', and technically there is no difference between them save what it takes to traverse the separations between.

i love this thread :fluffle:

I have problems with you setting up limits so you won't be killed, similar to what Xanthal did during that fiasco, if you want something to compare it to. Of course, you still haven't rationalized how there is some fundamental problem with dying that necessitates counter-measures making you invincible from harm.
You're still sore about that? It's not losing I object to, it's being blitzed by a group of people wielding technology I can't hope to defeat. That's no less reasonable than a PMT nation saying I can't just waltz in and steamroll it because "I've got the power."

The only reason I eventually resorted to the admittedly extreme ultimatum I did in the Striking the Enemy thread was because everyone was ignoring the agreement that was supposed to exist up front: I get to choose what technology is and isn't acceptable. I would afford no less privilege to any other defender. Being able to ignore technology that outclasses your own is a fundamental part of what makes NS work for all the different types of nations people play. If you take issue with that, your quarrel isn't with me, but with the entire PT, MT, and PMT communities as well as the less-developed FT nations.

I am glad you like to read this Thread. The origional intention was to drag the arguments out of the IC and OOC Threads that were off topic so they didn't clog them. Placing them in a central location allowed them to be fully discussed as long as they did not break the standard rules of NS (i.e. flaming, trolling, ect...).

I will make no comment on the tech being discussed because like I said in my Dimensional Conference, everyone will have their own system. This all is a work of fiction loosely based on known or theorized science humanity possess at this time It is too bad that Thread died because I was trying to document the different ways nations who were known to me did their own. It died from lack of posting. Perhaps the other ones I have planned will be successful like Physics, Robotics, Psionics, Magic, Genetics, and possibly a few after those. I view them as a way to document the various ways each nation does their own systems.

I feel the first problem in the Thread the last few replies were based upon (I have read the posts they were talking about) is the possible hyjacking of the Thread but until Prates.Waterhelper posts their intentions here, even that is subjective and considered hearsay. In my opinion, it sounded like he wanted a peaceful Thread but again he would need to post that for confirmation.

I am glad you like to read this Thread. The origional intention was to drag the arguments out of the IC and OOC Threads that were off topic so they didn't clog them. Placing them in a central location allowed them to be fully discussed as long as they did not break the standard rules of NS (i.e. flaming, trolling, ect...).

I will make no comment on the tech being discussed because like I said in my Dimensional Conference, everyone will have their own system. This all is a work of fiction loosely based on known or theorized science humanity possess at this time It is too bad that Thread died because I was trying to document the different ways nations who were known to me did their own. It died from lack of posting. Perhaps the other ones I have planned will be successful like Physics, Robotics, Psionics, Magic, Genetics, and possibly a few after those. I view them as a way to document the various ways each nation does their own systems.

I feel the first problem in the Thread the last few replies were based upon (I have read the posts they were talking about) is the possible hyjacking of the Thread but until Prates.Waterhelper posts their intentions here, even that is subjective and considered hearsay. In my opinion, it sounded like he wanted a peaceful Thread but again he would need to post that for confirmation.

His intentions seem to be to roll with it. You'll note he posted his ships doing stuff against mine. Those are his intentions. The argument is about Godulars bull, not Prates decision concerning thread.

Godular,
I wasn't RPing the tentacles but another beastie from whatever dimension it's from. If you've decided that nothing else can exist in that universe, just ignore that post.

You are correct, he did respond to the battle with his ships. I did not make my meaning clear and I am sorry. I was referring to the opening post in determining the feeling of the content it seemed he wished. That was my mistake.

I wish to again remind everyone that my opinion of what he wanted in that Thread is entirely subjective, as is probably everyone elses until he posts somewhere what it was, thus making it factual and final.

I will still refrain from the technological aspects of the discussion.

You are correct, he did respond to the battle with his ships. I did not make my meaning clear and I am sorry. I was referring to the opening post in determining the feeling of the content it seemed he wished. That was my mistake.

I wish to again remind everyone that my opinion of what he wanted in that Thread is entirely subjective, as is probably everyone elses until he posts somewhere what it was, thus making it factual and final.

I will still refrain from the technological aspects of the discussion.

By which you input nothing that actually has anything to do with the discussion at all, since that's what the freaking argument is about in the first place. The technical aspects. This is a tangent that has no relevance.

I suppose one could say that the fifth dimension is 'probability' which comes into the issue of alternate realities.

No, one could not. If something exists, it has a probability of 1. If it does not exist, it has a probability of zero. In physical existence, there are no other values, you can't half-exist. Therefore, all objects at their current location will always have a probability of one.

Whereas the fourth is just progression along one timeline, the fifth turns into a progression among multiple timelines in the vein of 'If I go a million years into the past and kick a Cro Magnon in the knee, what'll happen in World War II?'

No, that's 'sum over histories' and only affects subatomic particles.

The sixth is sorta being able to see every possible timeline for every possible choice stemming from every possible happenstance...

No, that's not a dimension at all. Dimensions are a way to physically locate an article, not a way to 'see' something.

The seventh sorta deals with "Well, that's everything in THAT universe... what if we just go to a different universe entirely?

You're just making these up. A hypothetical seventh dimension might be used to fix the location of another universe in space relative to this one, but that universe would still be described in terms of the normal dimensions. An object at a fixed position in another universe would still have length, width and depth. It may only have subatomic measurements in these, much as our own is theorised to only have subatomic measurements in additional dimensions, but it will still have them.

Eighth and Ninth are along the lines of "Okay, how does time progress in this one?"

No, that's still fourth. Regardless of where you are, time remains the same dimension.

Point of the matter is, when it comes down to it, dimensions and 'bubble universes' aren't separate at all.

Yes, they are. Another universe's distance from this one may need to be defined as an additional dimension, you may have to travel in that additional dimension to get there, but the other universe itself is not another dimension.

Its just all one big part of a greater whole. There are 'dimensions' in terms of X Y Z and whatnot, and 'dimensions' in terms of 'Alternate realities' and 'Alternate Universes', and technically there is no difference between them save what it takes to traverse the separations between.

No, an alternate universe is not a dimension in the physics or mathematical sense. A dimension is a measurement of the size or location of something. So, for example:

To find your location on a perfectly straight line, you require one dimension, because you only need know how far you've walked.
To find your location on a map, you require two-dimensional coordinates, X and Y.
To find your location in a block of flats, you need 3-dimensional coordinates, because you require information about what floor you are on.
To find where something happened in history [say, precisely where Napoleon died] you need 4-dimensional coordinates, because you require the 3-dimensional location plus the date it occurred.

Dimensions five and greater will operate in the same manner, describing location in space or the area of space a thing occupies. If a universe existed in a manner which allowed us to meaningfully interact with it, it would have to be capable of being described in terms of the four dimensions we can directly perceive.

Also, what of those versions of String Theory that predict 11 or 26 dimensions? Are you declaring them void?

Does Space Have More Than 3 Dimensions? (http://www.astronomycafe.net/cosm/dimens.html)

The dimensions over 4 are smaller than an atomic nucleus. That's why we can't experience them.

Does Space Have More Than 3 Dimensions? (http://www.astronomycafe.net/cosm/dimens.html)

The dimensions over 4 are smaller than an atomic nucleus. That's why we can't experience them.

I direct you to the words "theory" and "can't experience them."

Eh, I've had Creationists point out that evolution is just a "theory," it's not the most impressive of arguments.

On the other hand, if you just wanted to note that physics is an area in which no one claims to be absolutely sure and that we don't have all the answers, then good point.

Eh, I've had Creationists point out that evolution is just a "theory," it's not the most impressive of arguments.

On the other hand, if you just wanted to note that physics is an area in which no one claims to be absolutely sure and that we don't have all the answers, then good point.

As for evolution, the same I say for every theory that gets exclusive time in education. Prove it. I can't disprove it barring divine intervention, but you can't prove it either.

And my point is that yes, it really is JUST a theory, for which we really DON'T have ANY real answers at all. Emphasis added.

As for evolution, the same I say for every theory that gets exclusive time in education. Prove it. I can't disprove it barring divine intervention, but you can't prove it either.

Science deals in creating accurate models of physical phenomena, not proving things. Evolution, like gravity, is an observed physical phenomenon, with the theory of evolution / gravity being a model designed to predict the operation of that phenomenon.

This is why creationism and intelligent design can't ever be regarded as science; because they propose a mechanism involving a mysterious divine entity that can do whatever it likes, whenever it likes, they cannot ever predict anything and so cannot be tested.

On the other hand, entirely theoretical constructs like String Theory really are just theories with no concrete observations to back them up.

Eh... how can we predict the operation of evolution?

I mean, at most, we can predict 'If we change the environment, the species will adapt or die'. We cannot predict how it will adapt.

Observe how similar populations geographically divided develop differently to adopt to a similar climate/environment.

[Gravity is just a theory as well.

I am not claiming science is flawless. However, dismissing because it's just a theory seems counterproductive to acquiring knowledge or trying to understand the universe as everything can labeled 'just a theory.' Unless your goal is a solipsistic reality, it seems prudent to use the theories that best fit our observations and understanding of the world.

Yes, we might pick the wrong 'answer', but I see that as preferable to avoiding the question.

Eh... how can we predict the operation of evolution?

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA210.html

See there.

Eh, I've had Creationists point out that evolution is just a "theory," it's not the most impressive of arguments.

On the other hand, if you just wanted to note that physics is an area in which no one claims to be absolutely sure and that we don't have all the answers, then good point.

The difference between the Law of Natural Selection and theories about other dimensions is that there's thousands of tons (literally) of physical evidence supporting Natural Selection. Theories like string theory are often simply the most favoured of several competing ones, and based on far less evidence.

While this doesn't render them invalid, they've not achieved the vast mountain of corrobaration that Natural Selection has, and disproving them requires far less effort - both are subject to being disproven by new evidence, but it's much less likely you're going to find a disproof of Natural Selection.

No, one could not. If something exists, it has a probability of 1. If it does not exist, it has a probability of zero. In physical existence, there are no other values, you can't half-exist. Therefore, all objects at their current location will always have a probability of one.

No, that's 'sum over histories' and only affects subatomic particles.

No, that's not a dimension at all. Dimensions are a way to physically locate an article, not a way to 'see' something.

You're just making these up. A hypothetical seventh dimension might be used to fix the location of another universe in space relative to this one, but that universe would still be described in terms of the normal dimensions. An object at a fixed position in another universe would still have length, width and depth. It may only have subatomic measurements in these, much as our own is theorised to only have subatomic measurements in additional dimensions, but it will still have them.

No, that's still fourth. Regardless of where you are, time remains the same dimension.

Yes, they are. Another universe's distance from this one may need to be defined as an additional dimension, you may have to travel in that additional dimension to get there, but the other universe itself is not another dimension.

No, an alternate universe is not a dimension in the physics or mathematical sense. A dimension is a measurement of the size or location of something. So, for example:

To find your location on a perfectly straight line, you require one dimension, because you only need know how far you've walked.
To find your location on a map, you require two-dimensional coordinates, X and Y.
To find your location in a block of flats, you need 3-dimensional coordinates, because you require information about what floor you are on.
To find where something happened in history [say, precisely where Napoleon died] you need 4-dimensional coordinates, because you require the 3-dimensional location plus the date it occurred.

Dimensions five and greater will operate in the same manner, describing location in space or the area of space a thing occupies. If a universe existed in a manner which allowed us to meaningfully interact with it, it would have to be capable of being described in terms of the four dimensions we can directly perceive.

Also, what of those versions of String Theory that predict 11 or 26 dimensions? Are you declaring them void?

I'm gonna respond to it as a big quote because the post you're responding too wasn't meant to be picked apart.

No, actually I am not making them up. While the source information is esoteric as all getout, for once I can actually tell you with a very straight face that I ain't pulling shit outta my ass. And also, that you're dead-fricking wrong! About me making shit up at least.

As for the 'Versions of String Theory', I think it would be rather important to note that those are also simple theories that are more in the range of hypotheses than actual theories. ANYTHING dealing with dimensions we cannot experience is little more than guesswork. Decently grounded guesswork maybe, but still guesswork. And really, its all a bunch of differing hypotheses about how the universe works in spots that we simply can't get to.

Guesswork which does, unfortunately, include the relationship between time and the other dimensions. So those who insist that Time and the Dimensions are separate, or that one hold an over-arching authority over the other, have as little to work on as those who insist otherwise.

No, actually I am not making them up. While the source information is esoteric as all getout, for once I can actually tell you with a very straight face that I ain't pulling shit outta my ass. And also, that you're dead-fricking wrong! About me making shit up at least.

Name the source and quote it or shens. Appealing to anecdotal evidence ['I read something somewhere that says I'm right'] impresses nobody, a guy I met in the street the other day said so.

As for the 'Versions of String Theory', I think it would be rather important to note that those are also simple theories that are more in the range of hypotheses than actual theories.

Actually, it's just that 10, 11 and 26 happen to be better mathematical fits than any other numbers.

Guesswork which does, unfortunately, include the relationship between time and the other dimensions. So those who insist that Time and the Dimensions are separate, or that one hold an over-arching authority over the other, have as little to work on as those who insist otherwise.

Time is seperate from other dimensions in that something that affects them won't necessarily affect it and vice versa. Place a telescopic ruler in front of yourself and watch it for a half hour, and you will note it totally fails to change length or width despite the change in time. Now, extend it and watch as time is unaffected by a change in length.

This means that it's equally fair to say that something that affects time won't necessarily also affect every other dimension equally.

I really think the people crapping up BLACKGRUE's Borg thread with "lol I show up and blow up the planet" are lame.

I really think the people crapping up BLACKGRUE's Borg thread with "lol I show up and blow up the planet" are lame.

Are you surprised, seeing who posted that?

Are you surprised, seeing who posted that?

I don't know much about who's bad in the FT community other than Godular and Balrogga (as well as Indra Prime and associates), so that was the first time I saw Mr 9 axial superlasers post.

Wouldn't say their all bad....

Wouldn't say their all bad....

I'm cool with Balrogga and Godular, I just have a bit of an issue with (insert 9 axial superlasers gigawank poster here).

I really think the people crapping up BLACKGRUE's Borg thread with "lol I show up and blow up the planet" are lame.

In defense of anyone who might do that, they are borg. In defense of anyone who wants to smite those that want to smite him, take a number.

Odd. I RP'ed with Atopiana once (as LNI), and, IIRC, he wasn't bad. He certainly didn't have 9 axial superlasers.

I think Godular pretty much cured most FT nation's desire to have fleets of superlaser wielding ships. Now pretty much the only super laser that I am aware of is the Death Star which is controlled by the GE.

I think Godular pretty much cured most FT nation's desire to have fleets of superlaser wielding ships. Now pretty much the only super laser that I am aware of is the Death Star which is controlled by the GE.

Yes, all hail to the mighty super-weapon reducing Void Shield :D

Hey, glad I could be of service... I think.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time is seperate from other dimensions in that something that affects them won't necessarily affect it and vice versa. Place a telescopic ruler in front of yourself and watch it for a half hour, and you will note it totally fails to change length or width despite the change in time. Now, extend it and watch as time is unaffected by a change in length.

This means that it's equally fair to say that something that affects time won't necessarily also affect every other dimension equally.

The three standard dimensions are orthogonal to each other, this is known and understood. If one walks along one axis, there is no change occurring in either of the other two axes. That similar should be true of letting something sit on the ground and hoping that time will affect it only shows that time is orthogonal to the others, as it should be. Orthogonal though the base 3 and time may be, they are just as intricately interwoven as if somebody would choose to define them along different parameters.

Barring the fact that moving at high velocities slows the travelers' perception of time somewhat in accordance with the concept ot relativistic time compression, the only reason that we cannot slide back and forth through time is simply that we have yet to figure out how. This does not however change the fact that though the interactions are more exotic than in simple terms of length/width/depth, existence needs time to move forward, and time needs an existence to move upon.

The three standard dimensions are orthogonal to each other, this is known and understood. If one walks along one axis, there is no change occurring in either of the other two axes. That similar should be true of letting something sit on the ground and hoping that time will affect it only shows that time is orthogonal to the others, as it should be.

How is a non-spatial measurement at right angles to anything?

Barring the fact that moving at high velocities slows the travelers' perception of time somewhat in accordance with the concept ot relativistic time compression

How does one travel at speed without a time component being present? You can't express velocity without time to begin with, because it's displacement in three dimensions over a period defined in the fourth; you can jump from point to point instantly without involving time [though this brings up certain problems in not being at the first point, as macroscopic items aren't good at being in multiple places at once], but not move at a defined rate. As was noted by Zeno's Third Paradox, if time is not a component then motion cannot be observed, and therefore all time distortions due to high velocity must already involve motion of the object in the fourth dimension or it would not be in motion at all.

the only reason that we cannot slide back and forth through time is simply that we have yet to figure out how.

Well, and that it may not actually be possible to do anywhere but a blackboard. Making some numbers that seem to work out is a million miles from building a physical, macroscopic apparatus to actually do something.

This does not however change the fact that though the interactions are more exotic than in simple terms of length/width/depth, existence needs time to move forward, and time needs an existence to move upon.

Neither does it change the fact that you're entirely wrong about something designed to protect against 'temporal' effects necessarily also affecting 'dimensional' effects, and wrong with your definitions of what higher dimensions would be. You think you can drown me in syllables so I forget what we're talking about?

OOC:

First point:

The Station was created by Ri-an (and a deleted character) and he allows other nations to establish embassies there. He calls it Neutral territory and it was agreed upon during a meeting of several nations including members of the GE, ESUS, and GFFA, The owner wants no war here and we basically agreed. That is why it is a "Neutral" Zone. If I am to be booted because of an alliance war, then all alliance members across NS also needs to never attempt to sit at a table and work out peaceful projects together.


I was never suggesting that you should be booted, just pointing out that under real world laws, the only way for the station's neutrality to be maintained would be to expell all military units from belligerent nations from the station. However, if there are no belligerent military units at the station, Hague becomes irrelevent.

I'm working under the assumption that there is some sort of military detachment from the various nations present at the station. If there are only civilians, then any possible legal justification for an attack on the station more or less evaporates.

Second:

He himself stated he was a group of mercenaries several times and other GFFA members know nothing of the supposed arrangements between the GFFA and them. I doubt any Letter of Marque was issued or he would have used it as a foundation for a legal way of intruding instead if invading.

Fair enough. I was simply stating that the actions seem more in line with those of pirates during the Golden Age than those of traditional mercenaries. With a government sponsorship, the piracy generally becomes privateering, though the distinction is usually ignored by the targeted nation.


Third:

With the ESUS-GFFA war going on I have forces standing by for emergency situations. They use artificially generated wormholes much like many on NS does. They did not use the ITH to travel there, which is reserved for civilian traffic. I impose a ten minute travel time on my wormholes instead of insta-travel like many of the others use. When Anthony got the message, he sent word back home. They would have ordered the reinforcements to travel the fasted way to the station. They sent them to a nearby system and the ships used their Dimensional Drives to travel the rest of the way. I needed ten minutes for a direct transport via wormhole but once the invaders gave their hour time limit, the ships were redirected and finished the trip using T-Space. Home informed the Embassy which passed along word to Anthony who is with Mr. O'aka, the station owner.

Personally I don't want to use the back-up and ICly I feel the same. It is there for the last chance. If they leave or sit down with O'aka, then the ships will not be used and people will never know they were there ICly. That is the desirable outcome. If it comes to battling, I want to give the Treaty those 11 players signed last week (RL and IC) to have its chance to stand for the station. I will only bring them into play if told to by Ri-an/O'aka.

I think that is fair.

That's certianly a fair explanation. I'd imagine that it's rather expensive to keep so many units on standby like that, but such is war.

I was being more critical of certian other parties who aren't even at war and yet seem intent on bringing in reinforcements at a moment's notice.

How is a non-spatial measurement at right angles to anything?

In suppose a better term would be linearly independent, but either way its the same thing. As time progresses, an object does not necessarily move, simply because time is progressing. In order for something to move, it would require an outside force, however controlled by time's progression it may be.

>snip<

dx/dt can be narrowed down to the point that time is an infinitesimal factor, and taken as what amounts to an infinitely small slice. Instantaneous Velocity does not require 'time', thought it might still use temporal measurements as part of its unit expression.

Well, and that it may not actually be possible to do anywhere but a blackboard. Making some numbers that seem to work out is a million miles from building a physical, macroscopic apparatus to actually do something.

I wonder if the Ancient Egyptians would have thought the same about flying to the moon.

Neither does it change the fact that you're entirely wrong about something designed to protect against 'temporal' effects necessarily also affecting 'dimensional' effects, and wrong with your definitions of what higher dimensions would be. You think you can drown me in syllables so I forget what we're talking about?

No, I'm fairly certain you're wrong on that. Though I suppose at this point it all really does come down to a matter of personal opinion, more or less because that's the exact extent such conjecture on higher dimensions can base itself. What defines the universe? It sure as hell ain't the universe. Its us. Our own perceptions. Our definitions are guided by our perceptions of how the universe works. Since we cannot delve further into that specific area of research under the constraints of current technology levels, we can only pose possibilities about how those things might work. In such a case, I have my ideas on how it works, and you have yours. The best we shall achieve is an agreement to disagree.

A lot of folks agree with me, a lot of folks might agree with you. A lot more folks just don't give a shit what either of us think. Technically, I don't give a shit what you think either, and you do not owe me any courtesy in return. After all, the chances of us appearing in an RP together are relatively slim. I don't mind. I don't care enough.

I just want a decent RP, minus folks attempting to pull cheap-ass shit like uber-beams of death and 'ha ha I make your fleet go away neener neener'. Though ElectronX and Miehm and others who dislike the concept of Tac-Jumping as similarly 'Cheap-Ass Shit', I don't mind if they tac-jump in return, or even if they have a legitimate countermeasure against the move entirely. Dynamics of that nature add to the RP and I would fully welcome such a thing.

I have my limits, you have yours, they have theirs, and it could all be worked out beforehand all nice and easy... but I suppose that flies right out the window when one barges into a thread that otherwise had no reason to concern them. I dunno about you, but doing something like that kinda signals a willingness to 'accept all consequences'. Coming in outta nowhere and then bitching about random feature 134346589765.12 when it comes to bite you on the ass just strikes as starting an argument just for the hell of it.

I take my lumps. I took my lumps. After 1 post of response fire what the hell do you want, Miehm? Some E-peen enlarging post about how your pirate ships utterly annihilated my destroyers even though all you did was say something about a torpedo that could poof a guy to another universe along with a bunch of 'no matter how good you are you can't dodge this neener neener' and to which I had a (to me and several others whom I have asked) legitimate countermeasure, and a little smidge about firing the equivalent of space-buckshot? Granted space-buckshot is an effective weapon against Kythons, but just saying "I shoot at u" ain't gonna net ya much in the way of pan-galactic devastation. Maybe I could apologize to the pirates and just shoot the crap out of your wounded battlecruisers and see if I can't start up some gun-running deals after the smoke clears. Weeeeeeeeeee...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a note other than the somewhat ramble-filled morass of verbosity noted above:

Cops make poor soldiers, and take time to organize in the face of a major incident. You wouldn't send cops to initiate a drug raid without briefing them and issuing armor and tactical weapons, would you?

That's using your definition of what cops are and assuming its the only viable option. Even for my earlier 'incarnations' police were sufficiently equipped and trained to be interchangable with Godulan Marines such as the ones that would conduct ground invasions. Were it MY police forces, they wouldn't initiate a drug raid, they'd blow the crack hut to smithereens. But that's just how MY forces work.. or worked, anyway.

What constitutes a cop? In most cases, its a label somewhere reading "Hi! I'm a Cop!" Whether that label's on a dude in boxer shorts with a pair of tweezers or another guy in a mechanized body tank with sufficient firepower to devastate several towns over the course of a bad mood swing, is purely up to the nation that makes the distinction. In any event, they are doing their job. They are 'policing', they are 'keeping the peace', they are 'making sure any and every clump of terrorists attempting to cause a ruckus within their jurisdicition is duly turned into a cloud of molten slag / pile of people-ash.'

A fully armed and prepared battlefleet can 'police' just as effectively as a guy in a uniform riding a space scooter handing out tickets to ships that park illegally...

Under the rules of war created at the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907, TSL is absolutely correct about the station not being neutral territory. In hosting and allowing a belligerent party in the war to operate from the station, the station's neutrality has been forfeit. While I'm not saying that the Hague conventions hold water in NS, let alone FT NS, I just thought I'd point that out.



While I initially advised Balrogga to that effect over on the ESUS boards, the fact is that both parties(ESUS and GFFA) are operating peacefully out of the station.

By trading with both sides in the conflict, the station does, in effect, maintain true neutrality. Which rather undermines the Solari justification.

That's using your definition of what cops are and assuming its the only viable option. Even for my earlier 'incarnations' police were sufficiently equipped and trained to be interchangable with Godulan Marines such as the ones that would conduct ground invasions. Were it MY police forces, they wouldn't initiate a drug raid, they'd blow the crack hut to smithereens. But that's just how MY forces work.. or worked, anyway.

What constitutes a cop? In most cases, its a label somewhere reading "Hi! I'm a Cop!" Whether that label's on a dude in boxer shorts with a pair of tweezers or another guy in a mechanized body tank with sufficient firepower to devastate several towns over the course of a bad mood swing, is purely up to the nation that makes the distinction. In any event, they are doing their job. They are 'policing', they are 'keeping the peace', they are 'making sure any and every clump of terrorists attempting to cause a ruckus within their jurisdicition is duly turned into a cloud of molten slag / pile of people-ash.'

A fully armed and prepared battlefleet can 'police' just as effectively as a guy in a uniform riding a space scooter handing out tickets to ships that park illegally...

A fully armed battlefleet should not have a policing mindset, or it will get pwned when the metal meets the meat. "If you don't surrender I swear I'll-*massive explosion, as the other fleet rips loose right in the unprepared cop-fleets face*" Oops. Police subdue and capture if at all possible, soldiers kill.

If your cops regularly execute citizens, then they are not cops. Cops generally get arrested for things like "murder" and "police brutality" when things like that happen.

EDIT:

Balrogga...Letters of Marque would not make my actions any less piratical. I just wouldn't get arrested as fast.

Only cops as we know them would get arrested for such things. For instance depending on the state in the Tannelornian federation, one could be charged with violent crimes for shooting a civilian, or simply be ignored, as after all s/he is a cop, whoever they shot deserved to die.

Now a "policing" fleet is the same thing as a peacekeeping fleet. Now putting up your guns, locking on and saying drop them or I will shoot is actually intelligent. Why? Let me tell you, the reason why is because the moment you try to turn your guns on this new third party policeman...he shoots you. End of story. So the statement that policing fleets are likely to be killed by the enemy is rather inane, as generally when someone says drop the gun or I will shoot, they have the drop on you, or at least the willingness to open fire. You shoot, they shoot back, after all this is space. Ordnance takes time to reach the target. What this sort of exchange of fire, where one side shoots first then another shoots back, is usually called is a battle

My problem is the inability for some (everyone) to understand basic concepts. Such as the reasons MM outlined for attacking the station. No one has to accept them as legitimate, but being dumbfounded by them like it was infinitesimal calculus is stupid.

Only cops as we know them would get arrested for such things. For instance depending on the state in the Tannelornian federation, one could be charged with violent crimes for shooting a civilian, or simply be ignored, as after all s/he is a cop, whoever they shot deserved to die.

Now a "policing" fleet is the same thing as a peacekeeping fleet. Now putting up your guns, locking on and saying drop them or I will shoot is actually intelligent. Why? Let me tell you, the reason why is because the moment you try to turn your guns on this new third party policeman...he shoots you. End of story. So the statement that policing fleets are likely to be killed by the enemy is rather inane, as generally when someone says drop the gun or I will shoot, they have the drop on you, or at least the willingness to open fire. You shoot, they shoot back, after all this is space. Ordnance takes time to reach the target. What this sort of exchange of fire, where one side shoots first then another shoots back, is usually called is a battle

The fatal flaw in that arguement is that you're assuming that the only thing that cops do is shoot people. In reality, cops enforce laws, aid citizens, issue citations, and try to take perps in alive for a proper trial.

Giving police military weapons does not make them adequate soldiers regardless of whether or not their rules of engagement says they can shoot anyone they want. A cop's job is still going to be far different from a soldier's.

Further, if you're using top of the line warships as police cruisers, it would seem to me that you're just hurting your military at the same time as crippling your police force. There's a reason that the US Coast Guard doesn't have aircraft carriers and cruise missiles and the Navy does, after all.

Of course it depends on laws in place and the sanity of those who set them down. For example, here in Britain, we'd rather shoot people in case they were suicide bombers, than arrest them.

In Chronosia, any deviant activity is usually punished with death and any threat against the Chronosian Quarter of the Constantine Space Station, or the station itself, would allow for Chronosian Security Forces to utilise maximum force at the Inquisitors disscretion. Being that this is an act of war on behalf of the GFFA, the Chronosian element shall move to protect the Balroggans, no matter what.

It is our opinion that a place where agents of warring powers can come together and co-exist peacefully, is a place of true neutrality. I'd consider the station more like the fictional Tannelorn (Moorcock reference), as a place of true peace.

The Solari intervention is the straw that breaks the camels back.

Also, your reason for paying attention (Auman butting in where he isn't wanted) is laughably hypocritical.

Only cops as we know them would get arrested for such things. For instance depending on the state in the Tannelornian federation, one could be charged with violent crimes for shooting a civilian, or simply be ignored, as after all s/he is a cop, whoever they shot deserved to die.

Now a "policing" fleet is the same thing as a peacekeeping fleet. Now putting up your guns, locking on and saying drop them or I will shoot is actually intelligent. Why? Let me tell you, the reason why is because the moment you try to turn your guns on this new third party policeman...he shoots you. End of story. So the statement that policing fleets are likely to be killed by the enemy is rather inane, as generally when someone says drop the gun or I will shoot, they have the drop on you, or at least the willingness to open fire. You shoot, they shoot back, after all this is space. Ordnance takes time to reach the target. What this sort of exchange of fire, where one side shoots first then another shoots back, is usually called is a battle

Except that while you're stopping to say "Halt!" I'm pulling the trigger. Hooray having more than one gun, and the ability to shoot in multiple directions simultaneously. And, your "policing fleet" should not have anything really heavier than a light cruiser. If you can't kill it with a cruiser, you best run like hell. Why would you need a battleship to handle customs anyway?

As for the 'Versions of String Theory', I think it would be rather important to note that those are also simple theories that are more in the range of hypotheses than actual theories. ANYTHING dealing with dimensions we cannot experience is little more than guesswork. Decently grounded guesswork maybe, but still guesswork. And really, its all a bunch of differing hypotheses about how the universe works in spots that we simply can't get to.

Guesswork which does, unfortunately, include the relationship between time and the other dimensions. So those who insist that Time and the Dimensions are separate, or that one hold an over-arching authority over the other, have as little to work on as those who insist otherwise.

Technically, 'String Theory' is a misnomer. A theory in the scientific sense, by definition, requires both corroboration with axioms and observations, and repeated verification by scientific experimentation. String theory meets neither requirement, and thus is a hypothesis at best.

/nomenclature 2¢

Also, your reason for paying attention (Auman butting in where he isn't wanted) is laughably hypocritical.

What?

OOC: I'm only paying attention to this thread because Auman seems to have decided to stick his nose where it doesn't belong, but I just thought I'd point out a few things.


One could say the same of you.

Technically, 'String Theory' is a misnomer. A theory in the scientific sense, by definition, requires both corroboration with axioms and observations, and repeated verification by scientific experimentation. String theory meets neither requirement, and thus is a hypothesis at best.

/nomenclature 2¢

Actually, I agree with you on that. I argued that once or twice myself, although dippy little me brain-farted on the theory-hypothesis difference the whole durn time.

A fully armed battlefleet should not have a policing mindset, or it will get pwned when the metal meets the meat. "If you don't surrender I swear I'll-*massive explosion, as the other fleet rips loose right in the unprepared cop-fleets face*" Oops. Police subdue and capture if at all possible, soldiers kill.

If your cops regularly execute citizens, then they are not cops. Cops generally get arrested for things like "murder" and "police brutality" when things like that happen.

EDIT:

Balrogga...Letters of Marque would not make my actions any less piratical. I just wouldn't get arrested as fast.

Letters of Marque mean stuff all to IISA your still scum

Actually, the Letter would allow you to act as the arm of the goverment that issued them. It was looked into when I was made Captain of the Delta Squad in the ESUS/GFFA war. The letters allowed the bearer to raid vessels and take their cargo and important people. The people would then be ransomed back to the nation and profits from the sale of the cargo and ransom were split with the goverment entity that issued the Letters.

When we raided that cargo vessel and took the arms shipment, it was under such an arrangement and I offered the munitions to other ESUS members because I was acting as a Privateer at the time.

I am not sure the current actions would fall under the definition of allowed activities under the Letters of Marque. I would have to investigate them again once I get to a proper PC and not on this cell phone.

Actually, the Letter would allow you to act as the arm of the goverment that issued them. It was looked into when I was made Captain of the Delta Squad in the ESUS/GFFA war. The letters allowed the bearer to raid vessels and take their cargo and important people. The people would then be ransomed back to the nation and profits from the sale of the cargo and ransom were split with the goverment entity that issued the Letters.

When we raided that cargo vessel and took the arms shipment, it was under such an arrangement and I offered the munitions to other ESUS members because I was acting as a Privateer at the time.

I am not sure the current actions would fall under the definition of allowed activities under the Letters of Marque. I would have to investigate them again once I get to a proper PC and not on this cell phone.

as he open fire on my ships with saying a thing about one he is class as to blown up to tiny bits

The sheer extortionate number of said ships made it overtly hostile in the context of station defence, you seem to be going a little OTT to protect something thats only a fraction yours Isa.

God know how the rest of your...Planet/Planets? Is doing.

The sheer extortionate number of said ships made it overtly hostile in the context of station defence, you seem to be going a little OTT to protect something thats only a fraction yours Isa.

God know how the rest of your...Planet/Planets? Is doing.

you forgetting the Emperor there too and it all so called a show of force with opeing up happens in RL you know

Technically, 'String Theory' is a misnomer. A theory in the scientific sense, by definition, requires both corroboration with axioms and observations, and repeated verification by scientific experimentation. String theory meets neither requirement, and thus is a hypothesis at best.

/nomenclature 2¢

I am actually the one who brought 'string theory' up as a theory equivalent to gravity. I believe Godular corrected me earlier.

The sheer extortionate number of said ships made it overtly hostile in the context of station defence, you seem to be going a little OTT to protect something thats only a fraction yours Isa.

God know how the rest of your...Planet/Planets? Is doing.

Isa? OTT? Never!

Isa? OTT? Never!

he say himself AI ships assembled, enough to devastate most normal fleets
and as the station not heavy armored like warships so his fleet would devastate it

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12331981&postcount=78

Actually Auman got involved because TFU asked him too and called out for his allies, it wasnt exactly random. Also mini, sorry to shatter your inane logic again but a policing fleet is not police officers, a policing fleet is a portion of a military fleet detached. Go ahead and shoot first, at over a million km you would still have 3 lovely seconds to fire back at the worst of times. So yes a "policing" fleet would be able to fire back on a military fleet, since in essence its the same thing. A coast guard is just that, I used to have a coast guard myself, it had older ships. It still had some ships capable of taking on heavier vessels. Now my "coast guard" is run by the same authority that runs the federal army and the police. Tannelorn has military police, trained to fight and be police.

Anyways I am done arguing with mini on this, in essence a policing fleet doesnt have to be the same thing as the coast guard, nor does a police officer have to be bad at fighting. SWAT teams for instance are better at FIBW then most soldiers.

he say himself AI ships assembled, enough to devastate most normal fleets
and as the station not heavy armored like warships so his fleet would devastate it

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12331981&postcount=78

To Imperial Isa,
It was less a comment on this RP, but a habit your nation has of responding like a wasp's nests that just got kicked. It's not necessarily a criticism as commenting on a salient feature. One gets the feeling that Isa has an aggressive, warrior culture.

To whomever cares,
Perhaps instead of police force, the term 'peacekeeping force' would be more appropriate? It suggests a military unit assigned to patrol a regular area, render immediate assistance, and use lethal force if necessary. This would be a similar use as coalition forces currently in Iraq, or the American Calvary during the western expansion period.

Whatever the name used, Godular's forces have a historical precedence.

how long did it take you to work that out

no shit how long did it take you to work that out

Eh, you will notice I registered last month and have only interacted with you in one thread.
~edit~
As you're around, you want to dock me on the spacestation thread, or should I do it myself?

Eh, you will notice I registered last month and have only interacted with you in one thread.

sorry that was rude i take that out i'am some what base on the Klingon way with a God as Emperor and what thread was that

he say himself AI ships assembled, enough to devastate most normal fleets
and as the station not heavy armored like warships so his fleet would devastate it

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12331981&postcount=78

*brutal kick across the jaw* Aye, because my entire goal is to KILL THE ALLIES OF THE PEOPLE ALLEGED TO HIRE ME! Think before you speak. Or read my posts, do something that shows me you're actually paying attention. 50 Billion ships is overkill. It is several hundred metric fucktons more ships than you could HAVE, much less USE. At your size, you might have a few thousand, max. Same as me. You all seem to be under this kind of crack dream impression that we're going to blow the fuck out of the station with battery.

One could say the same of you.

Perhaps, but one of my closest allies jumping into something that could get me dragged into this mess gives me reason to be keeping an eye on this.

*brutal kick across the jaw* Aye, because my entire goal is to KILL THE ALLIES OF THE PEOPLE ALLEGED TO HIRE ME! Think before you speak. Or read my posts, do something that shows me you're actually paying attention. 50 Billion ships is overkill. It is several hundred metric fucktons more ships than you could HAVE, much less USE. At your size, you might have a few thousand, max. Same as me. You all seem to be under this kind of crack dream impression that we're going to blow the fuck out of the station with battery.

how about you fucking go back and see that i fix it and fuck what it says about my size i play as a EMPIRE

In suppose a better term would be linearly independent, but either way its the same thing. As time progresses, an object does not necessarily move, simply because time is progressing. In order for something to move, it would require an outside force, however controlled by time's progression it may be.

So?

dx/dt can be narrowed down to the point that time is an infinitesimal factor, and taken as what amounts to an infinitely small slice. Instantaneous Velocity does not require 'time', thought it might still use temporal measurements as part of its unit expression.

No it can't. The only way to rationalise the Arrow Paradox is to assume there is no such thing as an 'instant' in time. If there is no time, everything is occurring in an instant, and velocity cannot exist. If you disagree, how many metres per second is something travelling at if there cannot be a second?

I wonder if the Ancient Egyptians would have thought the same about flying to the moon.

Ah yes, the typical getout; assume that because some things not predicted to happen have happened, anything can happen given enough time. I wonder if the Ancient Egyptians thought the same about the sun being a vast body many times the size of the earth that operated by fusing hydrogen, rather than a glowing orb pushed across the sky by a giant invisible scarab beetle.

No, I'm fairly certain you're wrong on that. Though I suppose at this point it all really does come down to a matter of personal opinion, more or less because that's the exact extent such conjecture on higher dimensions can base itself.

Actually, the ideas of string theory at least hold up to mathematical testing, even if they can't be the subject of practical tests, and the idea of a fifth dimension is not one new to either science or mathematics. They do not predict 'probability' being a dimension, or that an identical dimension in another universe would be a seperate dimension.

What defines the universe? It sure as hell ain't the universe. Its us. Our own perceptions.

Don't be ridiculous. It doesn't matter how much you believe the wall isn't there, you still can't run through it.

In such a case, I have my ideas on how it works, and you have yours. The best we shall achieve is an agreement to disagree.

Well, not really, since mine have some outside support. The idea that protection against a single specific attack using a given 'dimension' is also protection against any attack involving any dimension is nonsense.

A lot of folks agree with me, a lot of folks might agree with you. A lot more folks just don't give a shit what either of us think. Technically, I don't give a shit what you think either, and you do not owe me any courtesy in return.

Actually, you do give a shit about what I think, since you're still arguing your point rather than simply breaking off the debate and not replying. At very least, you give a shit about other people thinking I've 'won' because I got the last reply in.

I just want a decent RP, minus folks attempting to pull cheap-ass shit like uber-beams of death and 'ha ha I make your fleet go away neener neener'.

You don't use RP devices to set up such an RP, since the players you design them against will just wank their way around them with more made-up science and obscure terminology. You agree OOC in advance how things are going to work out. Anything else is like trying to demolish a concrete bunker by telling it it really ought to just collapse.

And since many see your Kythons as an 'uber beam of death' type weapon [because they're vulnerable only to what you decide they're vulnerable to and you won't say what that is] this does strike me as a little hypocritical.

I have my limits, you have yours, they have theirs, and it could all be worked out beforehand all nice and easy... but I suppose that flies right out the window when one barges into a thread that otherwise had no reason to concern them.

Strange that this opinion didn't stop you defending Balrogga when he did the exact same thing a while back.

I dunno about you, but doing something like that kinda signals a willingness to 'accept all consequences'.

There's no such thing. All consequences would include, say, a nation using unstoppable dark magic to turn your nation's worlds into black holes and your ships into Pinyatas because they didn't like the way your admiral was dressed.

Even if you play as an Empire, your military forces are limited by your NS Population. Typically it would be 2-5% of your NS population. Anything more than 5% would cause really really bad things to happen to your economy.

Most people on NS doesn't think much of people who artificially inflate their nation's size. Some came up with the compromise that even if they have an inflated population their military should be figured based on the NS generated population for fairness.

how about you fucking go back and see that i fix it and fuck what it says about my size i play as a EMPIRE

Do you mean to imply that you actually have 23.4 warships for every person in your nation?

Even if you play as an Empire, your military forces are limited by your NS Population. Typically it would be 2-5% of your NS population. Anything more than 5% would cause really really bad things to happen to your economy.

Most people on NS doesn't think much of people who artificially inflate their nation's size. Some came up with the compromise that even if they have an inflated population their military should be figured based on the NS generated population for fairness.

most of my ships dont have poeple on them and do add the three other Nations i have to the count and i use a clone military not human

Do you mean to imply that you actually have 23.4 warships for every person in your nation?

most are AI run ships cheaper than man ships

most are AI run ships cheaper than man ships

That's not an excuse.

Just out of random curiosity, does anybody happen to have an opinion to venture on my magic/FT technology?
I've been trying to keep things roughly parallel with NS FT tech, but it seems like Ive underestimated everything, since most nations standard ships apparently verge on (in my most uninformed opinion :P) godmodding.

But, like I said, Ive been trying to keep things roughly parralel with regular FT tech, only more fantasy-ish, so I can do things that are otherwise impractical, like build ships based (roughly) on late-19th century dreadnaught designs :P

Of course, the last time I did FT RP on NationStates people were strongly into the 'lol ur misles are nootralized bai mi nooklar uber-shilds!' and, of course, HFI was around.
*sigh*
And it seems Klonor has vanished. I am deeply saddened by this.

Just out of random curiosity, does anybody happen to have an opinion to venture on my magic/FT technology?
I've been trying to keep things roughly parallel with NS FT tech, but it seems like Ive underestimated everything, since most nations standard ships apparently verge on (in my most uninformed opinion :P) godmodding.

But, like I said, Ive been trying to keep things roughly parralel with regular FT tech, only more fantasy-ish, so I can do things that are otherwise impractical, like build ships based (roughly) on late-19th century dreadnaught designs :P

Of course, the last time I did FT RP on NationStates people were strongly into the 'lol ur misles are nootralized bai mi nooklar uber-shilds!' and, of course, HFI was around.
*sigh*
And it seems Klonor has vanished. I am deeply saddened by this.

Isa changed his numbers. (I am assuming male) Does anyone have a problem with the current number of ships (5) that Isa has in the area?

That's not an excuse.

2.135 billion
2.172 billion
2.166 billion
2.158 billion
Populations of IISA and colonys

2.135 billion
Populations of IISA and colonys

Fixed.

Even if you play as an Empire, your military forces are limited by your NS Population. Typically it would be 2-5% of your NS population. Anything more than 5% would cause really really bad things to happen to your economy.

Actually, it would typically be less than 1% in most cases. Even North Korea only has 4.7%, which equates to 20% of men aged 17-54 in the armed forces. By contrast, Germany has 0.46% in the military including civilians and the US 0.47% actually active in all forces.

Isa changed his numbers. (I am assuming male) Does anyone have a problem with the current number of ships (5) that Isa has in the area?

if you read i was on the phone and posting at same time an miss that i hit the zero till Ri-an say in his post

Just out of random curiosity, does anybody happen to have an opinion to venture on my magic/FT technology?
I've been trying to keep things roughly parallel with NS FT tech, but it seems like Ive underestimated everything, since most nations standard ships apparently verge on (in my most uninformed opinion :P) godmodding.

But, like I said, Ive been trying to keep things roughly parralel with regular FT tech, only more fantasy-ish, so I can do things that are otherwise impractical, like build ships based (roughly) on late-19th century dreadnaught designs :P

Of course, the last time I did FT RP on NationStates people were strongly into the 'lol ur misles are nootralized bai mi nooklar uber-shilds!' and, of course, HFI was around.
*sigh*
And it seems Klonor has vanished. I am deeply saddened by this.

They 'verge' on godmodding like oral verges on being sex.

I like your stuff.

Fixed.

no you can use your colonys i have seen it done

2.135 billion
2.172 billion
2.166 billion
2.158 billion
Populations of IISA and colonys

2.135 Billion. That is your population you have to work with, no more, less if you feel like it. Also, AI ships are cheaper to operate, but as demonstrated by the entirety of my FREAKING NAVY, they're also bleeding expensive to build, hence why I've got maybe 60 Battleships, in a navy of a couple thousand ships over all. Clones count towards population. Phail. Last I saw of your ships, before I simply stopped paying attention to your inanity, was that there were 5 billion. Still too many. 5 ships challenging TSL(also an Empire, BTW, just one that doesn't feel Empire should equal a few billion steel penises) at this juncture is just another drop in the bucket, there aer however, no complaints on my side about you finally using a nuimber that isn't so stupidly huge as to be laughable.

if you read i was on the phone and posting at same time an miss that i hit the zero till Ri-an say in his post

Except that last I checked, the word "billion" was still there.

Except that last I checked, the word "billion" was still there.

what i miss that too fuck that day suck phone going off all day ok i go fix it

They 'verge' on godmodding like oral verges on being sex.

I like your stuff.

Haha, nice to know :P
Looks like I choose a bad time to interject here >_>
Seems Mr. ISA is in a bit of trouble <_<

Just out of random curiosity, does anybody happen to have an opinion to venture on my magic/FT technology?
I've been trying to keep things roughly parallel with NS FT tech, but it seems like Ive underestimated everything, since most nations standard ships apparently verge on (in my most uninformed opinion :P) godmodding.

But, like I said, Ive been trying to keep things roughly parralel with regular FT tech, only more fantasy-ish, so I can do things that are otherwise impractical, like build ships based (roughly) on late-19th century dreadnaught designs :P

Of course, the last time I did FT RP on NationStates people were strongly into the 'lol ur misles are nootralized bai mi nooklar uber-shilds!' and, of course, HFI was around.
*sigh*
And it seems Klonor has vanished. I am deeply saddened by this.

I built my navy around WWII... It'll work no matter what you do basically. Anywho... So long as you don't EVER do as some people I know, and take the LOLMAGICK!(yes, with an extraneous K) approach, I wont have to hunt you down and execute your leaders. If you do... I'll find a reason.

Just out of random curiosity, does anybody happen to have an opinion to venture on my magic/FT technology?
I've been trying to keep things roughly parallel with NS FT tech, but it seems like Ive underestimated everything, since most nations standard ships apparently verge on (in my most uninformed opinion :P) godmodding.

But, like I said, Ive been trying to keep things roughly parralel with regular FT tech, only more fantasy-ish, so I can do things that are otherwise impractical, like build ships based (roughly) on late-19th century dreadnaught designs :P

Of course, the last time I did FT RP on NationStates people were strongly into the 'lol ur misles are nootralized bai mi nooklar uber-shilds!' and, of course, HFI was around.
*sigh*
And it seems Klonor has vanished. I am deeply saddened by this.

Your ships are interesting, to say nothing else. While I too make heavy use of magic, it's mostly as a way to make daily life and infantry combat easier rather than as a substitute for military technology. The only exception is medical tech, but that's another story.

However, I would like to say that I do have the most powerful ship in the galaxy ~desu.* (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/32843525/)

*Much more recent version. (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/43147098/)

Haha, nice to know :P
Looks like I choose a bad time to interject here >_>
Seems Mr. ISA is in a bit of trouble <_<

It's the FT Arguement thread. Having read 75% of the pages, someone is always in trouble in it.

Actually, it would typically be less than 1% in most cases. Even North Korea only has 4.7%, which equates to 20% of men aged 17-54 in the armed forces. By contrast, Germany has 0.46% in the military including civilians and the US 0.47% actually active in all forces.

I was going by what I remembered in one of the Stickies. Sorry if I didn't remember it correctly.

EDIT:

Here is the Sticky (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416823)

I was going by what I remembered in one of the Stickies. Sorry if I didn't remember it correctly.

It's probably said like that in the sticky because it was written back when 20-50% was commonly claimed and was trying to scale it back to something that might actually happen without the state in question totally collapsing. 5% is doable, but still wouldn't be healthy by any means, especially not in peacetime.

Sorry, you posted while I was searching the stickies and editing my Thread.

I am currently using about 1.5% during wartime.

10% of my FT, and 2% of my regular.

what if you got 100% tax rate main and colonys

Each nation is limited to their own population and you cannot combine your populations with other puppet nations. That is something called Puppetwanking.

Colonies would be other nations you create and thus would count as Puppets.

Am I correct on this?

I actually remember reading a sticky by Euroslavia that suggested a smaller nation create a puppet and ally with it so as to be able to fight larger, older nations.

On the other hand, I've heard many people speak unflatteringly of the practice.

Each nation is limited to their own population and you cannot combine your populations with other puppet nations. That is something called Puppetwanking.

Colonies would be other nations you create and thus would count as Puppets.

Am I correct on this?

i have seen this done so is it correct

I actually remember reading a sticky by Euroslavia that suggested a smaller nation create a puppet and ally with it so as to be able to fight larger, older nations.

On the other hand, I've heard many people speak unflatteringly of the practice.

The Solarin League said there Nation is a lot bigger

I meant was I correct with what I typed.

I meant was I correct with what I typed.

i think only if they RP but lets wait and see

Balrogga, yes, you were correct.

Actually, you do give a shit about what I think, since you're still arguing your point rather than simply breaking off the debate and not replying. At very least, you give a shit about other people thinking I've 'won' because I got the last reply in.

Actually, I'm just amusing myself now by seeing how much you keep feeling the necessity to reply. Especially that you keep trying to claim the legitimacy of your 'hypothesis' over mine.

You don't use RP devices to set up such an RP, since the players you design them against will just wank their way around them with more made-up science and obscure terminology. You agree OOC in advance how things are going to work out. Anything else is like trying to demolish a concrete bunker by telling it it really ought to just collapse.

So you're against people just barging into threads and starting fights? Like Miehm did? That's cool. I agree with you entirely.

And since many see your Kythons as an 'uber beam of death' type weapon [because they're vulnerable only to what you decide they're vulnerable to and you won't say what that is] this does strike me as a little hypocritical.

They're vulnerable to people who actually try to RP. They're about as anti "Two fleets sitting there shooting at each other" as can be. Of course I'd also like to try working things out with people beforehand anyway.

Strange that this opinion didn't stop you defending Balrogga when he did the exact same thing a while back.

Also strange that you seem to whiff on the notion that you were pushing an FTLi that could stop all FTL, yet when I have a mechanism that proposes to counter a relatively similar thing, you cry foul. Picky picky picky. That's another reason why this whole argument kinda has me laughing a bit. I've accepted YOUR little position, but when the tables are turned you moan about unfairness. Make up your damn mind, please.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, in terms of the percentage of population dedicated to military... I use under 1% of my population, though the number would seem smaller still now.

I would like to see this sticky myself <.< heh, either way its moot. Regardless of being an "empire" or not that is all IC of your nation. You can be an empire of one billion or eight billion, it doesnt much matter. All empire truly alludes to is a rather large amount of territory and resources. If your nation of three billion controls sixteen star systems, then you have ALOT of resources to work with.

If North korea had its own planet, four percent of its pop in the military wouldnt even hurt the nation, because they wouldnt be starving or out of oil. However of course being an empire has its own drawbacks, such as needing to defend your territory, thusly any extra ships you can make are generally used to make sure no one takes whats yours. Of course its advantage is that you cant get wiped out in one shot like people whose nations are a planet, or a nation on a planet. Sure they can pull all 2k of their ships in one battle easily, but if they lose that battle their fracked. The empire can pull out reserves and keep fighting for a long time. After all battles take time to win, no matter how much more you have then the enemy. Well unless your enemy is incompetent and the number of enemies against you is obscene [20-30 to one], then it may not take long at all.

As for this link saying you can make puppets to fight bigger nations? I have never seen that, the only thing i know is that you can outwrite your enemy and win the war, beat him regardless of being smaller. Older nations have enemies too, if they take too many casualties killing you, it makes them open to attack from their other foes. Mini miehm for instance is at war with alot of people with both his nations. Him fighting you means he cant send out a huge amount of ships, and any ships he does send, as he uses the 1k per 1bil rule to the letter, will be no better then yours Isa [if you use the same rule].

Thats my peace on the fleet and military sizes and one final note. If you have awesome RP backing it, pretty much anything can get accepted, so long as other people accept it as well. Even puppet nations in an empire..though thats rarely accepted.

Note: Nothing stops you registering a group of nations and RPing each as a different but allied entity, or any other reasonable method of levelling the playing field you can come up with. Age should NOT bring with it arbitary RP advantage.

From What is Godmoding? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7310165&postcount=1)

I would like to see this sticky myself <.< heh, either way its moot. Regardless of being an "empire" or not that is all IC of your nation. You can be an empire of one billion or eight billion, it doesnt much matter. All empire truly alludes to is a rather large amount of territory and resources. If your nation of three billion controls sixteen star systems, then you have ALOT of resources to work with.

If North korea had its own planet, four percent of its pop in the military wouldnt even hurt the nation, because they wouldnt be starving or out of oil. However of course being an empire has its own drawbacks, such as needing to defend your territory, thusly any extra ships you can make are generally used to make sure no one takes whats yours. Of course its advantage is that you cant get wiped out in one shot like people whose nations are a planet, or a nation on a planet. Sure they can pull all 2k of their ships in one battle easily, but if they lose that battle their fracked. The empire can pull out reserves and keep fighting for a long time. After all battles take time to win, no matter how much more you have then the enemy. Well unless your enemy is incompetent and the number of enemies against you is obscene [20-30 to one], then it may not take long at all.

As for this link saying you can make puppets to fight bigger nations? I have never seen that, the only thing i know is that you can outwrite your enemy and win the war, beat him regardless of being smaller. Older nations have enemies too, if they take too many casualties killing you, it makes them open to attack from their other foes. Mini miehm for instance is at war with alot of people with both his nations. Him fighting you means he cant send out a huge amount of ships, and any ships he does send, as he uses the 1k per 1bil rule to the letter, will be no better then yours Isa [if you use the same rule].

Thats my peace on the fleet and military sizes and one final note. If you have awesome RP backing it, pretty much anything can get accepted, so long as other people accept it as well. Even puppet nations in an empire..though thats rarely accepted.
i wish i could outwrite here and RL but with bad schooling and dyslexia i'm not going to get things right all the time

Actually, I'm just amusing myself now by seeing how much you keep feeling the necessity to reply. Especially that you keep trying to claim the legitimacy of your 'hypothesis' over mine.

Oh? I've never called it a 'hypothesis,' so put those quotation marks away. It's simply that your ideas on what a dimension is are rather at odds with the ideas of every actual scientific theory on the matter. And I note you've continually evaded demands to cite any sources for your claims or otherwise justify them; indeed, you have snipped EVERY point related to science out of the post you're replying to so you can concentrate on rhetorical games.

So you're against people just barging into threads and starting fights? Like Miehm did? That's cool. I agree with you entirely.

I believe I've already pointed out it pains me to agree with Miehm about anything. If not, I have now.

Also strange that you seem to whiff on the notion that you were pushing an FTLi that could stop all FTL, yet when I have a mechanism that proposes to counter a relatively similar thing, you cry foul.

Ah, knew you'd pull that out sooner or later. What you have is a claim that a weapon can't affect you because you have $system with a very dubious justification for why $system stops $weapon based on redefinition that doesn't actually hold water. FTLi doesn't have to redefine anything, because it does exactly what it says on the tin.

Now, whether anyone accepts either is open to debate, but the thing is in both cases you've argued that it's ok to give yourself an arbitary advantage, both times by saying X is immune to the effects of system Y because you say it is, be it FTL is immune to FTLi or Kython is immune to dimension-stunting.

Picky picky picky. That's another reason why this whole argument kinda has me laughing a bit. I've accepted YOUR little position, but when the tables are turned you moan about unfairness. Make up your damn mind, please.

Prefacing things with 'little' is an extremely childish mode of rebuttal.

If North korea had its own planet, four percent of its pop in the military wouldnt even hurt the nation, because they wouldnt be starving or out of oil.

Don't be ridiculous. Regardless of land area, having 20% of their entire planet's labour pool in the military will hurt them. Remember, population is not available labour; children, the sick, pregnant women and the elderly can't be part of that 4%, so it ends up a much bigger percentage of the remainder.

most of my ships dont have poeple on them and do add the three other Nations i have to the count and i use a clone military not humanNeither do mine (Well, not necessarily, anyway). Guess what? As of right now, there's:


87 explorers
874 warships (175 strategic & 699 tactical)
8746 civilian craft (Various purposes)
21 factory craft (Listed seperately because of OMG HUGE)


And I believe that not even Balrogga/ Godular (Who go with unmanned craft themselves, at least partially, I think) claim $Effectively_Infinite number of ships.

Now, I wont argue about the strict feasibility of $REALLYHUGENUM fleets - mostly because I can think of ways to do it, given sufficient (Actually, not all that advanced) technology. I would, however, argue about this thing called game balance - which doesn't appear to exist for you.

And this just might raise issues.

Also, personally, I believe that converting planetary masses into wargear is just silly, regardless of whether it can be pulled off or not.

PS: You've just been mentally bitchslapped by every identical twin in the world for suggesting that clones aren't human. And some day, I'm going to hurt Lucas - and assorted others - really badly for the suggestion...

Actually, it would typically be less than 1% in most cases. Even North Korea only has 4.7%, which equates to 20% of men aged 17-54 in the armed forces. By contrast, Germany has 0.46% in the military including civilians and the US 0.47% actually active in all forces.And of course, one might bother recognising that militaries have consistently shrunk in size (Per capita, that is), and... Yeah.

Neither do mine (Well, not necessarily, anyway). Guess what? As of right now, there's:


21 explorers
874 warships (175 strategic & 699 tactical)
8746 civilian craft (Various purposes)
21 factory craft (Listed seperately because of OMG HUGE)


And I believe that not even Balrogga/ Godular (Who go with unmanned craft themselves, at least partially, I think) claim $Effectively_Infinite number of ships.

Now, I wont argue about the strict feasibility of $REALLYHUGENUM fleets - mostly because I can think of ways to do it, given sufficient (Actually, not all that advanced) technology. I would, however, argue about this thing called game balance - which doesn't appear to exist for you.

And this just might raise issues.

Also, personally, I believe that converting planetary masses into wargear is just silly, regardless of whether it can be pulled off or not.

PS: You've just been mentally bitchslapped by every identical twin in the world for suggesting that clones aren't human. And some day, I'm going to hurt Lucas - and assorted others - really badly for the suggestion...

And of course, one might bother recognising that militaries have consistently shrunk in size (Per capita, that is), and... Yeah.
Edit
i did say they not i said i use a clone military (as troops COs, NCOs) not a human one as human can be turned more Easy then clones (eg money and so on),thats not to say i have a very small number of humans as COs and NCOs

just in my Nation thare no civilian spcaecraft or civillian space stations

i did say they not i said i use a clone military not a human one as human can be turned more Easy then clones (eg money and so on)

Clones of humans are still humans.

Clones of humans are still humans.

my Clone DNA has human ,werewolf, vampire

GMC, 20% of the military as a war time number comes from the fact that the US was going to raise an army of 20 million in WW II, this is a fact, it also had a fleet of something like 56 000 ships, surely not all war ships, however thats beside the point. The point I was trying to make was that for the most part your not going to have a mega military outside of wartime, but that it is possible to have large numbers of vessels. There is an accepted number Isa could work with and still have a rather fine number of ships. That is 1 thousand per 1 billion.

However I was also bringing up the point that sure, you can be an empire with dozens of worlds and resources out the arse, but you still cant wind up with half your people in the military..or all of them. Between Ten and Twenty percent in war time is about right proper [Remember we mean total war, not imperial style clashes. "I rather like that world, well so do we!" Rawr!!.

In World War II canada had 1.7 million men in the military, its population was 16 million. In WW I we had 8 million and a million men in the military. The Russians must have had over twenty million fighting men involved in the second world war, the Germans at least ten. However what people must remember is even these great empires couldnt keep war time numbers up for long..it broke them as fast as the fighting did. In peacetime a military was generally 1-5% of the population after world war II. However many nations did maintain about 5%, Canada in fact had an army of six hundred thousand men until Pierre Trudeau pretty much dismantled it. This was peacetime and we were actually economically well off throughout the fifties and sixties, when we had this army. I am sure the US army was easily five times that size in the same period. The Warsaw pact had a force of twenty million men in the eighties, and it was the Nuclear weaponry they were churning out that broke them economically, not the army cost itself [that and afghanistan].


None of these huge armies were over 4% of the population, though many were at around 4% [Canada through the fifties and sixties, Warsaw pact.] A peacetime army should always follow the 1-4% rule. Period..or your people, even in a great and huge empire, will be eating rats and grass soup.

However having unlimited ships is just silly..unless they are cardboard drone vessels, even then unlimited is silly. Now my own military uses clones, replicants to be precise, synthetic Tannelornians. Now they have rights, and are given choices..also they take time to grow and learn which makes it take just as much time as it does to make a soldier out of a civilian.

Just cranking out drones and clones is its own form of wank.

mind-transferral technology is one way to speed up training
and yes building ships take time so does building Drone weapons

my Clone DNA has human ,werewolf, vampire

A human with werewolf and vampire DNA would likely be a much worse soldier than a regular human. I mean, superior abilities, but much more expensive to maintain, and, given the rather feral nature of both those creatures, much harder to order around.

Strict military per population control makes sense in MT, but carrying that model to FT or PT is less about 'reality' and more about fair RPing. If you were willing to say that your troops were poorly trained, your ships were lightly armored, or your weapons were weaker, I bet the average player wouldn't be fine with you having a larger percentage of your population in your military.

It's when you have the high military percentage of wonderfully trained troops in fantastic ships that arrive at a moment notice that people begin to complain.

A human with werewolf and vampire DNA would likely be a much worse soldier than a regular human. I mean, superior abilities, but much more expensive to maintain, and, given the rather feral nature of both those creatures, much harder to order around.

Strict military per population control makes sense in MT, but carrying that model to FT or PT is less about 'reality' and more about fair RPing. If you were willing to say that your troops were poorly trained, your ships were lightly armored, or your weapons were weaker, I bet the average player wouldn't be fine with you having a larger percentage of your population in your military.

It's when you have the high military percentage of wonderfully trained troops in fantastic ships that arrive at a moment notice that people begin to complain.

the werewolf DNA cames from the Wolf my leader
my troops armor from halo with face mask and goggles
Warhog (halo) with chaingun from Killzone
Rilfe, Handgun, Anti-tank launcher Killzone
warships BFG
only tank i have 40K
blackstone 40K
EDIT an they two meters tall and thats going by one of the ISSUES

GMC, 20% of the military as a war time number comes from the fact that the US was going to raise an army of 20 million in WW II, this is a fact

No, look at the figure again. The 20% is the percentage of North Korea's labour pool [males aged 17-54. in their case] that equals just 4.7% of the population in the military.

it also had a fleet of something like 56 000 ships, surely not all war ships, however thats beside the point.

Which included Liberty Ships, which were quite capable of snapping in half on their own because their construction was so rushed.

Whoa...40k ships. 40k ships average around 10 kilometers in length for cruisers ..and they have a million worlds and some worlds with populations nearing a trillion. There is one word for a military as big as yours from a nation as small as yours, with as little background on your military. Cardboard. We are telling you how to change it easily, you will still have 2k ships, you will still have 20 million troops and they wont suck as badly as they would at...whatever insane number you have right now. Plenty of people have been told this same thing Isa, its no big deal. Let me put it this way, no matter what DNA is put in your supersoldiers, if you have three hundred million of them, then one Divine Celestial Cavalier, Angstian infantry combatant, Thrashian storm trooper or Chronosian Chosen space marine would be able to slaughter them in a way that would be altogether very unpretty.

Anything else would be ludicrous, by all means have a humongous military, but remember your strategems would now have to be dictated by attrition and the fact that you know your quality is lower then most people. Of course this can be fun in its own right, sort of like Space Orks in 40k. Go ahead and have this vast army of physically superior men and giant star ships. Just remember that as physically superior they may be, they might as well be orks strategically, and your ships might as well be cardboard except for the huge numbers. I would accept you having maybe 5-8000 ships in this case, as well as having over 100 million soldiers.

If you want an Elite army, keep it much smaller then the maximums. If you want an Elite fleet, follow the same rules. 1k per 1 billion pop, 1-4% of population in the armed forces. Clones do indeed count as population, remember this. If you want to go over these maximums, quality starts to suffer exponentially as citizens suffer in poverty, as robot manufacturing goes unsupervised and as your civilian infrastructure starts to fall apart. Providing for 300 million people that need more food and more supervision then your own people as well as the multitudes of ships needed to transport them will break a star empire, and would destroy a single solar system nation that was not expanding exponentially.


Look to older players for examples. Chronosia for instance follows 1k ships per 1 billion pop to the letter, others prefer to do things differently, such as Der Angst's 800 ship fleet, or my 1700 ship fleet. Sure we could have 8000 according to the 1k per 1 bil rule, but we dont. Either way it should all be relative Isa. If you have 20 000 ships and you invade me or Der Angst, our ships would still have parity despite being outnumbered almost 20 to 1...thats not even mentioning the extensively RP'd background of our militaries. Same goes for Balrogga and the rest. It should normally be about the writing, people should cooperate with each other to determine how things will go.

Isa, I am just trying to give some very friendly [and exhaustively detailed] advice. Hopefully any issues with your military can be dealt with here so you can go on to have fun with little ooc grumbling. If you want to have the maximum number of ships, then go with the 1k per 1 bil rule. You can still have alot of troops even with 4% of your population in the military.

And GMC, I am simply stating that during war time one can effectively at least double the figures given for 1-4 odd percent. Depending on the enemy and how in to the war the people are, triple or even quadruple. The russians in WW II certainly had over ten percent in the military fighting, not just production. However I am not trying to argue for huge armies in peacetime...only saying save the super huge imperial army for the mega war, where its appropriate. Anything like that in peacetime would kill your empire/republic/kingdom/hegemony faster then the enemy could.

fine i just use my ND-001 Nadesico and Holographic ships
EDIT i don't RP wars have , till The Solarin League showed up i just RP character story type raps

The Solarin League said there Nation is a lot bigger

Mini Miehm(my main nation) is in fact significantly larger than your current nation, by between half again, and double what you could reasonably field.

Tannelorn: I feel the 1k per billion rule is flawed, due to its basis in 40k(the first person that I ever heard expound this was Chronosia, whom I believe is the progenitor of the "rule). The largest 40k ships are larger than anything I field, and my average vessel is somewhere in the "cruiser" category for size(BFG Scale). As such, while they may arguably be qualitatively equal, it is unlikely that I would need the same limiting mass of materials and workforce, to say nothing of crew, that is required. That and 1k per billion is really a personal choice, but if I use that, my ratios get all jacked up.

Mini Miehm(my main nation) is in fact significantly larger than your current nation, by between half again, and double what you could reasonably field.

Tannelorn: I feel the 1k per billion rule is flawed, due to its basis in 40k. The largest 40k ships are larger than anything I field, and my average vessel is somewhere in the "cruiser" category for size(BFG Scale). As such, while they may arguably be qualitatively equal, it is unlikely that I would need the same limiting mass of materials and workforce, to say nothing of crew, that is required. That and 1k per billion is really a personal choice, but if I use that, my ratios get all jacked up.

which i guess it was
and what you are saying of 40K ship it true as Imperium of Man got lot of worlds and man power
which is how i base IISA

The 40k universe is on a vastly different scale (comparable to the SW universe) as compared to the FT NS universe. In reality, in order to construct, crew and maintain vessels of the multi-kilometer size range we would have to multiply our NS populatoin by around a factor of 100.

Realistically some of the larger FT nations on NS might possess a few ships of the 1km or so size range within their fleets with most vessels being substantally smaller.

Actually 40k ships much like Star wars ships have humongous crews. This all leads to less volume inside for systems and more orders to be given to make things work. My ships for instance range from 500 meters to 3.7 klicks [balmung and fafnir] however my ship with a size of 1 km also has a crew of 300. An imperial 1km ship has a crew of over three thousand. Remember that size is relative. A 12 km imperial cruiser would be the same as a 1 km cruiser, in fact its huge guns and death killyness would have to be used to target the smaller ship, resulting in the same damage the smaller ship can tend to put out.

AS for not being able to maintain ships of 1km, thats not so hard, thats only three times as long as a modern aircraft carrier. With drone mining and orbital manufacturing its not so hard. Also automation on the scale of angstian ships [twelve man crews on some] or Tannelornian [120-600 man crews] makes it much easier to field such massive ships. Of course when your imperial cruiser has a crew of 15 000 men its hard to field alot of them. Remember your not pulling steel out of a mine in montana, your pulling resources out of a section of the asteroid field, or denuding a neighbouring system.

The 1k per 1 billion was first discussed in the II sticky and agreed upon by a few people. Its a hard fast and easy rule. Personally I prefer the role play and background to determine power as well as writing, which chronosia does fantastically. I accept his 8000 ship fleet without a problem, because he has most definetly earned it. But thats my opinion, in a straight out competitive atmosphere 1k per 1 billion tends to work..after all escorts do indeed count as ships. Escorts are also alot smaller, even imperial ones. Chron may not have 8000 40k cruisers for instance. Its more then likely [as most people who use that rule] that he has around 6000 escorts, which are necessary for patrolling his massive empire. Either way I will always accept 1k per 1 billion for one reason. It doesnt seem unreasonable and it always seems to work out in the end as almost everyone can tend to agree with it, at least in principle.

Just remember that with that rule comes the rule of less, if you have less then they could be better [if your nation is militaristic]. These ideas are simply there to add some logic and fair play to nationstates. Not everyone wants to do huge background RP's on their military and the like, they just wish to play.

However my personal beliefs on the issue are a tad different then either side. Its all about writing and cooperation to me, the story is whats most important. Believe me if you come to me and discuss an RP and what you want out of it rather then try to "compete" and simply have a wargame you will get alot more out of it then otherwise. For instance I would accept imperial isa's strength in a RP if it was agreed upon and definetly not something that would stick afterwords. Ie perhaps the war that lowers it for instance, which could happen as a way to explain the sudden change Icly.


Right now I am simply concerned with helping Isa make sure there is no more ooc complaints about his stuff, because the less ooc bickering we all have on NS FT, the better :)

Yup, immense crews. Everything from security, to deck crews, to bridge crews, servitors interlaced into the ship, the gun crews who load most of the manual guns/ Huge amount of commitment. I only use 1k per bill for ease of convenience, to put the numbers behind me and focus on my writing, with a definitive pool of things behind me, more or less to the letter of 40k law. :)

I think the primary problem with Isa is his god-awful cross-tech bastardy and the fact that he insists on falling back on "Gods." Big hint, "Gods" should never be on the physical plane, they should never be a character. I consider that to be a rather annoying trait, as anyone who expounds this, or "ascended beings" has known the glowering wrath I bring to that topic :)

Okay, this 1km per billion does well enough when dealing with the maximum size an FT NS nation can possess, but what about the numbers of said vessels? That is, how many of such vessels can one FT nation possess?

Isn't he talking about numbers? 1 thousand ships per billion?

Okay, this 1km per billion does well enough when dealing with the maximum size an FT NS nation can possess, but what about the numbers of said vessels? That is, how many of such vessels can one FT nation possess?

Isn't he talking about numbers? 1 thousand ships per billion?

I thought it was refering to the maximum sized vessel an FT nation could possess rather than the number of vessels.

Well yes, ship size I thought would normally be limited by sanity and once again by the 1-4% pop idea on militaries. After all if you have a ship that requires a million men to crew, like an SSD thats nearly a million of your defense force troopers! An entire fleet of those isnt going to be likely, but one or two sure is.

I built my navy around WWII... It'll work no matter what you do basically. Anywho... So long as you don't EVER do as some people I know, and take the LOLMAGICK!(yes, with an extraneous K) approach, I wont have to hunt you down and execute your leaders. If you do... I'll find a reason.

I dont plan to :P
I may be BSing, but I TRY to give an explanation for 'how magic works'. There are serious and unpleasant side effects, for example, to using vast amounts of magic to rip a hole in the fabric of space and time in the middle of an enemy fleet.
Like your spellcaster and everybody else on his ship being devoured by Horribly Betentacled Creatures from the Dungeon Dimensions ;)

Your ships are interesting, to say nothing else. While I too make heavy use of magic, it's mostly as a way to make daily life and infantry combat easier rather than as a substitute for military technology. The only exception is medical tech, but that's another story.

However, I would like to say that I do have the most powerful ship in the galaxy ~desu.* (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/32843525/)
*Much more recent version. (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/43147098/)

Bah, but youre ships arent a lovely shade of green ;)
And they dont have amusing messages written in Greek-charecter Latin on them.
Of course Im sure theyre far more capable of blowing the hell out of things than my little Jade Star class :P

It's the FT Arguement thread. Having read 75% of the pages, someone is always in trouble in it.

Ahhh, so I see. Its like a feeding frenzy, only with text instead of sharks.
Such is all of NationStates, it seems.

I thought it was refering to the maximum sized vessel an FT nation could possess rather than the number of vessels.


Definitely talking about ship numbers, not sizes. I've got like...3 4.5km Superdreadnoughts, a 55 Battleships, 12 battlecruisers, 66 Heavy cruisers, 146 light cruisers, 625 Destroyers, 377 DEs, 130 Fleet Carriers, and likewise 127 CVEs. Note, these numbers are very much just approximations. Especially the cruiser classes Battleships, Destroyers, Carriers, and Escort Carriers are all reasonably accurate, but subject to limited change.

That's a rough estimate of 1,538 ships, of which I have deployed maybe 200-400.

Nationstates gets alot better, don't you worry. It's not all a feeding frenzy of hate, race hate, ignores and lols.

There are those here who put time and effort into things. Like me and my Charybdis :D

Nationstates gets alot better, don't you worry. It's not all a feeding frenzy of hate, race hate, ignores and lols.

There are those here who put time and effort into things. Like me and my Charybdis :D

Eh, Im a natural cynic :P
And, like I said, theres no Klonor. it just doesnt seem like NS without Klonor. Or the GA.

Nationstates gets alot better, don't you worry. It's not all a feeding frenzy of hate, race hate, ignores and lols.

Liar.

Bah, but youre ships arent a lovely shade of green ;)
And they dont have amusing messages written in Greek-charecter Latin on them.
Of course Im sure theyre far more capable of blowing the hell out of things than my little Jade Star class :P

They could easily be green, but they're not because I tend to paint them based on the nation operating them. Mine are dark blue, but New Haven's are crimson.

Tis a good way of identifying who owns what during a battle.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when it comes to FT, size doesn't matter, only capabilities.

I like big ships, but AN is right: capability over size. Homeworld ships are huge for example, but the piddly prototype FTL ships from Hamilton's Commonwealth are more powerful.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when it comes to FT, size doesn't matter, only capabilities.

Major QFT. Star Trek exhibits this point quite well.

They could easily be green, but they're not because I tend to paint them based on the nation operating them. Mine are dark blue, but New Haven's are crimson.

Tis a good way of identifying who owns what during a battle.

Who needs IFFs and all that silly stuff, eh? A coat of paint does the same job ;)

Who needs IFFs and all that silly stuff, eh? A coat of paint does the same job ;)

Until the other guy paints his ships like yours. Welp,

Thats why banners of flesh and skulls and flaming incomprehensible symbols of absolute evil and depravity are so much better in terms of decor.

Until the other guy paints his ships like yours. Welp,

That takes far more effort than simply miming an IFF signal.

And to be fair, only NH and myself use the ships in question, so it would look rather obvious if someone was trying to get their ship to blend in with the fleet.

Thats why banners of flesh and skulls and flaming incomprehensible symbols of absolute evil and depravity are so much better in terms of decor.

Dont forget the amusing messages in greek-charecter Latinian!
Nothing says 'we kick ass' like 'Ego Auspicio Tui Domus Ab Hic'.

Dont forget the amusing messages in greek-charecter Latinian!
Nothing says 'we kick ass' like 'Ego Auspicio Tui Domus Ab Hic'.

"Neko ha mata yoi" (猫はまたよい) would seem to work just as well.

"Neko ha mata yoi" (猫はまたよい) would seem to work just as well.

Sorry, no hablo el moonspeako :P
Neko is something about cats, isnt it?

Sorry, no hablo el moonspeako :P
Neko is something about cats, isnt it?

LURK MOAR

Cat People, like the pretty Schrodinger!

Hell, as far as numbers go, just look at my military - 10 multi-kilometer long supercapital ships, 32 really spiffy frigates, and an army less than 200k strong that really isn't that great, but is instead designed to provide a backbone to the militia should I be invaded.

And any one of those ships would take me 2-3 RL months to replace.

All for a population of 8.9 billion.


And, like I said, theres no Klonor. it just doesnt seem like NS without Klonor. Or the GA.

He was a character, wasn't he?

[/nostalgia]

He was a character, wasn't he?

[/nostalgia]

NationStates lovable Jew :P

blackstone 40K

Assumin this means you claim to have Blackstone Fortressess; I seriously suggest you reconsider. These are the reasons:
They're plot devices\relics\Artifacts (in D&D parlance). Like the One Ring, the Nightbringer's Flagship (*Strokes it lovingly* "Ohh pretty. One day you'll get to do something...") or Thor's Hammer. Very serious consideration should be given to their use. They're not really something you have in your navy. They're something that appears in threads and end battles (or cause new ones) by their sheer prescence. They're objectives for entire campaigns (see the Gothic War and the 13th Black Crusade), not just a spiffy battleship.
I'll have to kill you. For the reasons above.

The 40k universe is on a vastly different scale (comparable to the SW universe) as compared to the FT NS universe. In reality, in order to construct, crew and maintain vessels of the multi-kilometer size range we would have to multiply our NS populatoin by around a factor of 100.
Actually, the BFG rulebook has the story of one vessel constructed by a feral world. A full-on cruiser, too.

It took years of the world's entire governmental product, though.

I think the primary problem with Isa is his god-awful cross-tech bastardy and the fact that he insists on falling back on "Gods." Big hint, "Gods" should never be on the physical plane, they should never be a character. I consider that to be a rather annoying trait, as anyone who expounds this, or "ascended beings" has known the glowering wrath I bring to that topic :)

<Ze Void Dragon> Yeah. We hate you too. :p

See, the thing about Gods and Godlikes are that they're so powerful that usually they either figure out a way to get someone else to do it or just ignore it. If it's so important they need to get involved, it means that there's already another god involved and they need to directly counter their opponent.

I've got a godlike, though granted it's an uber-AI and it's more because he's got fleets of OMGHandwave stuff more than anything. He's allied to my main faction, New Oxford, but even if they were being genocided, unless it was part of a direct attempt on himself he just wouldn't care.

Once a being passes a certain threshold of power, they are so powerful that they either get shot down by adventurers (BBEG route) or move on to bigger things and just slap away whatever comes along to bother them. It's to the point where invaders are more likely to fight around their residences or come to some sort of deal than attack them or harm them.

Assumin this means you claim to have Blackstone Fortressess; I seriously suggest you reconsider. These are the reasons:
They're plot devices\relics\Artifacts (in D&D parlance). Like the One Ring, the Nightbringer's Flagship (*Strokes it lovingly* "Ohh pretty. One day you'll get to do something...") or Thor's Hammer. Very serious consideration should be given to their use. They're not really something you have in your navy. They're something that appears in threads and end battles (or cause new ones) by their sheer prescence. They're objectives for entire campaigns (see the Gothic War and the 13th Black Crusade), not just a spiffy battleship.
I'll have to kill you. For the reasons above.

Actually, the BFG rulebook has the story of one vessel constructed by a feral world. A full-on cruiser, too.

It took years of the world's entire governmental product, though.



<Ze Void Dragon> Yeah. We hate you too. :p

Trust me, you don't want C'tans Blackstone-abuse wrath on you. I got that when I was new :P

Also, I don't mind C'tan so much, since they're not really gods, and can be beaten back. Its these people who have godlikes who just pull stuff out of their asses, claim to have invented the universe and generally look down on everyone.

Power and respect like that are earned, not just given because you say you're the creators of the Universe.

Assumin this means you claim to have Blackstone Fortressess; I seriously suggest you reconsider. These are the reasons:
They're plot devices\relics\Artifacts (in D&D parlance). Like the One Ring, the Nightbringer's Flagship (*Strokes it lovingly* "Ohh pretty. One day you'll get to do something...") or Thor's Hammer. Very serious consideration should be given to their use. They're not really something you have in your navy. They're something that appears in threads and end battles (or cause new ones) by their sheer prescence. They're objectives for entire campaigns (see the Gothic War and the 13th Black Crusade), not just a spiffy battleship.
I'll have to kill you. For the reasons above.

Actually, the BFG rulebook has the story of one vessel constructed by a feral world. A full-on cruiser, too.

It took years of the world's entire governmental product, though.



<Ze Void Dragon> Yeah. We hate you too. :p

as i told Chronosia they more like space station arm with MAC guns or Nova Cannons and secondly weapons then the one use in the Gothic War or The Thirteenth Black Crusade

and Chronosia just because you happy with one line of tech don't mean i have to be like you
oh look who has The God-Emperor of Mankind running they Nation

Attention all: I am now God. Worship. NOW.:p

But seriously, Uber-ships are plot devices. Or else its just no fun.


Now all I gotta do is just find them damn rings......Muahahahahahha.

as i told Chronosia they more like space station arm with MAC guns or Nova Cannons and secondly weapons then the one use in the Gothic War or The Thirteenth Black Crusade

and Chronosia just because you happy with one line of tech don't mean i have to be like you
oh look who has The God-Emperor of Mankind running they Nation

God-Emperor in name alone, self-declared. Do try and read up on people before you attempt to defame them, eh?

If they're not Blackstones why bother calling them as such? They're obviously not the Canon ones (all claimed), so why bother? Rename it.

It's not about me being happy with one line of tech, its more that I respect people who create decent custom or utilise an existing base faithfully.

Not people who mix and match at leisure and bring in "Gods" to try and make themselves better, when they haven't earned it. Doesn't work like that.

God-Emperor in name alone, self-declared. Do try and read up on people before you attempt to defame them, eh?

If they're not Blackstones why bother calling them as such? They're obviously not the Canon ones (all claimed), so why bother? Rename it.

It's not about me being happy with one line of tech, its more that I respect people who create decent custom or utilise an existing base faithfully.

Not people who mix and match at leisure and bring in "Gods" to try and make themselves better, when they haven't earned it. Doesn't work like that.

do ever see me use him outside CRP no you dont so get over it and why should i change the name just to make you happy they still have the look of them just not arm as them

do ever see me use him outside CRP no you dont so get over it and why should i change the name just to make you happy they still have the look of them just not arm as them

Well, he was in the "Isa thread" and you're likely to use him elsewhere. I wasn't criticising you specifically, I just broadly look down on people who do that. Some more than others.

And you ought to rename them because they're not the real ones, they just look like them, shoddy imitations really. It's like having a lego Eiffel tower and saying you have the real thing in your front room. Just a suggestion, change the name. Sure it can still look like it, but it won't be it.

Things to think about

Not people who mix and match at leisure

>.>;

Well, he was in the "Isa thread" and you're likely to use him elsewhere. I wasn't criticising you specifically, I just broadly look down on people who do that. Some more than others.

And you ought to rename them because they're not the real ones, they just look like them, shoddy imitations really. It's like having a lego Eiffel tower and saying you have the real thing in your front room. Just a suggestion, change the name. Sure it can still look like it, but it won't be it.

Things to think about
yes but no other poeple no other Nation or wars where in that thread with me just me and i did take in what you said to me about using his power outside of that thread
if you look at what i was doing with TGM you see he in a very bad way and that outside of my thread he Exiled himself keeping only small powers like teleporting and illusion

ADRASTOS Fortress

Well, perhaps you're not beyond hope. :)

Well, perhaps you're not beyond hope. :)

bad schooling and dyslexia it just take more time for me to learn

oh what just came to me is if someone throws a demon or what ever like that in ,i would say all bets are off and use him if ask to with set rules

but as that not going to happen i safe to keep him where i left off with TGM with caring family poping in to check up on him like all familys

Nah, I'd have to say that the use of godlike beings against a mere Daemon is a bit of overkill. Daemons can and have been vanquished by mortal men.

Why call in some silly, good for nothing, god when you control an arsenal greater than his/hers?

I'd just drop a tactical nuke on a Daemon, or do what Corbec did and get the fleet to wax it from orbit.

Remember this, Imperial Isa...God helps those who help themselves!

Nah, I'd have to say that the use of godlike beings against a mere Daemon is a bit of overkill. Daemons can and have been vanquished by mortal men.

which is true as been told in books and movies
but i would have fun killing it bring it back then killing again :)

oh i mainly use the sword he carrys base on the one out of Blade just it's got a blood red blade and gold and silver plated hilt and black scabbard

Why call in some silly, good for nothing, god when you control an arsenal greater than his?

I'd just drop a tactical nuke on a Daemon, or do what Corbec did and get the fleet to wax it from orbit.

Remember this, Imperial Isa...God helps those who help themselves!

Why call in some silly, good for nothing, god when you control an arsenal greater than his?

I'd just drop a tactical nuke on a Daemon, or do what Corbec did and get the fleet to wax it from orbit.

Remember this, Imperial Isa...God helps those who help themselves!

But what if its one of those Star-Trek demon things that feeds on negative emotions and violence?
Somehow I dont think Chronosia (and precious few other nations, for that matter :P) has a brigade of professional happy-people to go and throw flowers at it :P

But what if its one of those Star-Trek demon things that feeds on negative emotions and violence?
Somehow I dont think Chronosia has a brigade of professional happy-people to go and throw flowers at it :P

In that case I'd send it a box of chocolates and a card that reads "I wuv u" And in it's moment of weakness...I'd freeze it in carbonite for laboratory testing.

Why call in some silly, good for nothing, god when you control an arsenal greater than his/hers?

I'd just drop a tactical nuke on a Daemon, or do what Corbec did and get the fleet to wax it from orbit.

Remember this, Imperial Isa...God helps those who help themselves!

wheres the fun in that yes you get a nice show but hand to hand way more fun
a God now runs IISA

All who serve the Gods are happy. Besides, our Daemons are bigger and snappier than ST ones. Foot-soldiers of the Gods pwn plot device anyday!

wheres the fun in that yes you get a nice show but hand to hand way more fun
a God now runs IISA

Hand to hand is fun, of course, but the greatest warrior is he who kills without facing his enemy, and without loss of life :P Subtlty and cunning are as much weapons as a blade.

In that case I'd send it a box of chocolates and a card that reads "I wuv u" And in it's moment of weakness...I'd freeze it in carbonite for laboratory testing.

Devious, that is.

Gods are mythical beings, thus magical beings, thus paranormal beings, thus they can be sucked into a Ghostbuster trap.

All who serve the Gods are happy. Besides, our Daemons are bigger and snappier than ST ones. Foot-soldiers of the Gods pwn plot device anyday!

till they piss them off and they have to show them whos boss but they get over it
ST ones are boring and weak to what the Chaos one are

No Chronosian who offends the Gods is allowed the luxury of living. All heretics who do not convert to the True Way after hearing the Word of Chaos cannot be trusted to live either, except in bondage.

Such are worlds made pure, such are slaves brought forth.

Hand to hand is fun, of course, but the greatest warrior is he who kills without facing his enemy, and without loss of life :P Subtlty and cunning are as much weapons as a blade.

ninja :p

Tzeentch outdoes any foolish God of Madness

Flaming Dogs indeed!

No Chronosian who offends the Gods is allowed the luxury of living. All heretics who do not convert to the True Way after hearing the Word of Chaos cannot be trusted to live either, except in bondage.

Such are worlds made pure, such are slaves brought forth.

Some day the Chaos Gods should meet Sheogorath. They would like him :P

Tzeentch outdoes any foolish God of Madness

Flaming Dogs indeed!

have they meet Ri-ans one, my one has and hates his guts
EDIT it just now hit me of the time warp has join us in II

Tzeentch outdoes any foolish God of Madness

Flaming Dogs indeed!

But Sheogorath has STYLE, he dresses like a 17th century banker and carries a pocketwatch in a medieval society.
Plus, his followers eat babies :)

What do you mean time warp?

Chronosia:
" Big hint, "Gods" should never be on the physical plane, they should never be a character."

Not a fan of Greek Mythology? The non-FT Kesshite nation has avatars living among them, seven to be exact. The FT Kesshii have their gods on the physical plane, as well.

"Thats why banners of flesh and skulls and flaming incomprehensible symbols of absolute evil and depravity are so much better in terms of decor."

It doesn't just identify your ships - it adds a dash of class.

"Not people who mix and match at leisure…"

You're going to hate the Kesshii.

Axis Nova:
" Gods are mythical beings, thus magical beings, thus paranormal beings, thus they can be sucked into a Ghostbuster trap."

Poor logic. Gods are mythical beings. However, not all mythical beings are magical or paranormal. Are you claiming that you could go back in time and use a 'ghostbuster trap' on King David?

What do you mean time warp?

Damn, looks like the topic is time warping.

PARADOX RESOLVED

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when it comes to FT, size doesn't matter, only capabilities.

Axis, stop quoting disused Seaquest arguments. Given equal tech, size does matter. Here's my List Of Generic Examples:

Size matters.

Let's do some tests, shall we?

Test 1: Firepower

Ok, our target here is a bunker. It's 160ft long and has walls 3ft thick made of steel-reinforced steam-hardened concrete. We each have 8 shots to fire at the exterior of the bunker: you have a .45 Colt M1911A1 pistol, I have WW2 Germany's 280mm K5 Leopold railroad gun.

Who does the most damage to the bunker with those eight shots? If size doesn't matter, you should be able to do equal or greater damage, in the precise same way. Can you?

Test 2: Armour

You have a canvas tent, I have the above 160ft bunker. We each take 4 shots from a modern PzH2000 155mm self-propelled gun. Which of us survives?

Test 3: Power generation

You have a nuclear power station that covers 500 square feet. I have one that covers 40 square miles. Both are built with the same technology, and both have the same density of systems. Who generates the most power?

Test 4: Movement of equipment

You have a single shunting engine towing a four-cart train. I have sixteen duplex Big Boy Mallets towing a train four miles long. Who transports the most equipment in one journey?

Test 5: Volume

You have a cardboard box. I have a million cubic foot warehouse. Which holds the most items of a given type?

Test 6: Systems

You have a rubber raft. I have a 100,000 ton aircraft carrier. Which of us can mount the most sensor systems? Which of us can carry the most aircraft?

Test 7: Production

You have a small garage with two helpers, I have a four square mile assembly line with three thousand workers. Which of us will be first to make a hundred cars?

Test 8: The critical weak point

I take an F-16 and the Arkbird flying fortress from Ace Combat Five. Multiple missiles fired by the F-16 at the engines of the Arkbird will destroy it: it has a weak point. I take a Barrett .50 calibre rifle and shoot the engine of the F-16. What happens? If size does not matter, the 'weak point' should not be any weaker than the same point on the gigantic Arkbird.

What do you mean time warp?

it said i was last to post then you look The Jade Star under my post and my post above there one oh wait oh you :p

Chronosia:
" Big hint, "Gods" should never be on the physical plane, they should never be a character."

Not a fan of Greek Mythology? The non-FT Kesshite nation has avatars living among them, seven to be exact. The FT Kesshii have their gods on the physical plane, as well.

"Thats why banners of flesh and skulls and flaming incomprehensible symbols of absolute evil and depravity are so much better in terms of decor."

It doesn't just identify your ships - it adds a dash of class.

"Not people who mix and match at leisure…"

You're going to hate the Kesshii.

Axis Nova:
" Gods are mythical beings, thus magical beings, thus paranormal beings, thus they can be sucked into a Ghostbuster trap."

Poor logic. Gods are mythical beings. However, not all mythical beings are magical or paranormal. Are you claiming that you could go back in time and use a 'ghostbuster trap' on King David?

Huge greek mytho fan, one of the many reasons I hated Troy, but bring Gods into your RP and I will be tempted to rain the pain. This isn't the Time of Troubles, its not even ancient Greece, godlike entities are literal godmod.

It adds class and identifies as most likely Chronosian.

And from what I've seen you seem custom enough, but mixing and matching is sure to enter you in the Seaquest and Miehmish topped "Hall of Eternal Bastardy"

Jesus would be caught by a Ghost trap.

Huge greek mytho fan, one of the many reasons I hated Troy, but bring Gods into your RP and I will be tempted to rain the pain. This isn't the Time of Troubles, its not even ancient Greece, godlike entities are literal godmod.

It adds class and identifies as most likely Chronosian.

And from what I've seen you seem custom enough, but mixing and matching is sure to enter you in the Seaquest and Miehmish topped "Hall of Eternal Bastardy"

Jesus would be caught by a Ghost trap.

Just because you can't think of a way to add gods on the physical plane without it being godmod, doesn't mean everyone has that limitation.

My species: Warhammer 40,000, Babylon 5, Mass Effect, Aliens, Starcraft, Magic: The Gathering, Alternaty, Resident Evil, and Giger. Make room in that hall.

No, Jesus was flesh and bone. Even atheists will admit that there was man named Jesus who walked around the Mediterranean and started a religion. Whether he was the son of god or not, he's not a spirit, and therefore won't be going into a Ghostbusters's trap unless you've got a chainsaw and an hour and a half.

Jesus would be caught by a Ghost trap.

To be fair, he did rise from the dead.

He rose from the fething dead! I reckon vampire, ghoul, zombie or ghost :D Discounting obvious Disciple body-theft. I'd say he was less the founder of a relgion, than the object of a religion founded in the name of god by men who then proceeded to twist it leading to years of violence, murder and evil in his name :)

Dark Ages; times to be proud of, what all the Crusades and Inquisitions ;)

I can think of ways to incarnate Gods, I'd just have them vastly reduced in power, if not powerless. A god with all its abilities, as some ascended types claim to have, is pure up godmodding.

I reserve the right to call bullshit on anyone who attempts to use the presence of a god as a determining factor, especially if it involves pulling stuff our of their asses and hand-waving.

Just because other people might accept overt idiocy, doesn't mean I have to :)

And Isa, bring your issues from Constantine here, leave it uncluttered.

I've held back from commenting on your tech-base, if one could call it that, tech-pile might be more apt, as might tech junk-heap...Because I haven't really seen you work. Your work in Constantine was somewhat blunted by Isa's ever-admirable "subtleness."

To be fair, he did rise from the dead.

Oh, good point.

Are we talking pre or post death Jesus? I don't know how post-death Jesus will do with the trap.

Sorry about the repeat, Internet buggered. I've added to the one above tho ;)

He rose from the fething dead! I reckon vampire, ghoul, zombie or ghost :D

I can think of ways to incarnate Gods, I'd just have them vastly reduced in power, if not powerless. A god with all its abilities, as some ascended types claim to have, is pure up godmodding.

I reserve the right to call bullshit on anyone who attempts to use the presence of a god as a determining factor, especially if it involves pulling stuff our of their asses and hand-waving.

Just because other people might accept overt idiocy, doesn't mean I have to :)

And Isa, bring your issues from Constantine here, leave it uncluttered.
i only ooc poeple not part of the fight with infor or asking them for infor for now on and forget i'm the who does the docking and have to tell them its
Ri-an people who meets them

am i right to say you can't use whats going on OOCly to kick someone ass in ICly

OOC is OOC.

IC is IC.

The two should not cross. Usually...

Chronosia:
"A god with all its abilities, as some ascended types claim to have, is pure up godmodding."

The kesshii gods are on the physical plane and they have all the powers they need to fit my concept of them. Feel free to call me a godmodder.

I reserve the right to call bullshit on any hard and fast rules when it comes to role-playing. The beauty of opinions.

Then could your God take a 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug to the Forehead?

Because that would be cool...

i still like to see The Humankind Abh ICly, I would have valid reasons for you screwing up the negotiation process. as that would mean i had to do ICly posting as i have not done

Then could your God take a 300ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug to the Forehead?

Because that would be cool...

he's head would be blown off killing on him the spot and then he be back a hour later

I think I could keep up a One Hour ROF for Eternity.

Then could your God take a 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug to the Forehead?

Because that would be cool...


She wouldn't have to. She could help the person firing 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug at people deal with whatever issues they so obviously have.

She wouldn't have to. She could help the person firing 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug at people deal with whatever issues they so obviously have.

then again playing with a big gun more fun so if ask my one my help out

She wouldn't have to. She could help the person firing 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug at people deal with whatever issues they so obviously have.

Ooooooh A nice God. That changes almost everything.

Why bother taking a hit from the 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug?
Just turn it into 10,000,000 or so doves!

Of course, expending that amount of magic would require me to blow up one of my own ships, and would probobly result in unpleasant Things taking an interest in the mage casting the spell.

GMC, I'm hardly quoting Seaquest. In general, my statement is true. There are certain specific cases where it is not, such as when looking at craft using the same tech base.

However, if you look at FT at a whole, it is quite true. What I mean when I say that is that arguing about size, for the most part, is a bit silly, unless you're making things ridiculously gigantic (eg planetary scale and so forth). Thus, arguing for or against a ship's general capabilities purely based on how large it is is silly.

My ships are for the most part larger than most Star Wars ships, yet, by the standards of most of FT, they are quite primitive.

Muahahaha.

I think I win on Primitive here. Unless of course your ships are made out of wood, then you take the cake.

Muahahaha.

I think I win on Primitive here. Unless of course your ships are made out of wood, then you take the cake.

*coughs*

*coughs*

thats a bad cold you have :p

*coughs*

One word.


PIRATES!

One word.


PIRATES!

One compound word;
Planeswalkers!

Actually, I dont have any of those, mores the pity. The whole creating/destroying worlds at the flick of a finger thing is probobly godmodding :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer

Ooooooh A nice God. That changes almost everything.

Fertility goddesses are underrated, but fun at parties.

Fertility goddesses are underrated, but fun at parties.
those parties get petty wild

Fertility goddesses are underrated, but fun at parties.

You ought to invite Dionysus if you want real fun.

OOC: I have a question; I want to play my nation as a large criminal organization in the galaxy. Is it possible for such an organization to control their own planet and possess a small fleet of military class ships?

OOC: I have a question; I want to play my nation as a large criminal organization in the galaxy. Is it possible for such an organization to control their own planet and possess a small fleet of military class ships?

Yes. Right now, the Russia is pretty much run by the Russian mafia. If a strong criminal organization comes to a poorer or tumultuous location, integration with the political organization is inevitable.

Yes. Right now, the Russia is pretty much run by the Russian mafia. If a strong criminal organization comes to a poorer or tumultuous location, integration with the political organization is inevitable.

My nation’s background was going to be about a penal world that is abandoned by the authorities. The prisoners form their own society that becomes like a pseudo mafia type organization. I plan to have my nation become a haven for assassins, smugglers, and other thug like criminals.

Axis, stop quoting disused Seaquest arguments. Given equal tech, size does matter. Here's my List Of Generic Examples:


Tech, however, is almost never equal, nor does tech or size account for the quality of the materials, design, and engineering. Even the design philosophy can have a staggering impact.

But it's mainly a play balance mechanic anyway, and in that sense is nominally quite valid.

Why bother taking a hit from the 600ton Depleted Uranium-Ferric Tungsten Slug?
Just turn it into 10,000,000 or so [relativistic] doves!


Fixed it for you.

Woe be to the god that fails to account for momentum. :D

Also, I don't mind C'tan so much, since they're not really gods, and can be beaten back.Pfft. What defines a god? Most answers that allow polytheism allow ze C'tan to claim that definition. It would be better to say they don't always claim to be gods. At least, not on my watch.

Even Asirnoth's a good deal wiser and more judicious in his interactions than say, the Greek Gods. ;) Of course, this is mostly because the main one's reconstituted Deciever. They act as vaguely normal people because he tells them to (approachability don'cha know).

as i told Chronosia they more like space station arm with MAC guns or Nova Cannons and secondly weapons then the one use in the Gothic War or The Thirteenth Black Crusade
"It's the USS Enterprise NNC-1701, save that it has rocket engines, projectile weapons, and looks like a rocket, and has an entirely different crew..."

So really, they're not blackstone fortresses at all? Did some government initiative decide to call them that to keep the C'tan away?

Why call in some silly, good for nothing, god when you control an arsenal greater than his/hers?

I'd just drop a tactical nuke on a Daemon, or do what Corbec did and get the fleet to wax it from orbit.

Demon Princes of Chaos are typically encountered with their own death fleets and armies. Or else in one's own cities. Neither situation truly lends itself to a good hard nuking.

Gods are mythical beings, thus magical beings, thus paranormal beings, thus they can be sucked into a Ghostbuster trap.

Hah! Speak for your own. Mine are distinctly physical.


No, Jesus was flesh and bone. Even atheists will admit that there was man named Jesus who walked around the Mediterranean and started a religion.

I won't. There's no real evidence for his existance. There were certainly an array of would-be 'prophets' any one of whom might have been 'Jesus' or he could be entirely made up.

no one in the government knows who the hell are C'tan or care

they have a new name of ADRASTOS Fortress

i change that they no longer have a once use emergency jump Engine
they now have one they can use when ever

and i'm think of building one with a gravity blast cannon on it

C'tan are energy beings who feed upon stars, forced into metal bodies (of sentient and malleable necrodermis) who now take to consuming souls and leading their legions of Necron warriors to purge the galaxy of the living.

Sort of a big deal, only C'tan's made his "good"

You ought to invite Dionysus if you want real fun.

Maenads ruin parties. Just look at Orpheus. Do love a good bachannal though

As to the Kesshites, you're more than welcome to use what you want, it is free-form, I'm just telling you in advance that I have issues with people using "Gods" on this plane, especially at full "godlike" power. I don't ignore people, but there are people who have pushed their own bogus superiority, compared to those I know and respect who've toiled away from the ground up.

Merely a bizarre code of respect and honor on my part, rather than anything personally against you.

the Necron oh i know of them , but not Isan people

Yeah, annoying buggers, and the C'tan are even worse given most of them were sadistic manipulative buggers who'd siphon away your soul slowly. Pity he killed off the Nightbringer though

No, Jesus was flesh and bone. Even atheists will admit that there was man named Jesus who walked around the Mediterranean and started a religion. Whether he was the son of god or not, he's not a spirit, and therefore won't be going into a Ghostbusters's trap unless you've got a chainsaw and an hour and a half.

Jesus wasn't a god until he Ascended (i.e. went up to the big Pie in the Sky on Easter. After he got crucified.), before that he was the son of God, but not part of the Trinity.

Yeah, annoying buggers, and the C'tan are even worse given most of them were sadistic manipulative buggers who'd siphon away your soul slowly. Pity he killed off the Nightbringer though

the ones that look Stingrays that pop out of the ground and rip one of your troops apart before you know it would annoying

Fixed it for you.

Woe be to the god that fails to account for momentum. :D

Well, said doves would ALSO be in space, so theyre pretty much already screwed anyway :P
However, the feathers would be a good distraction to the enemy fleet. A giant expanding puffball that big is bound to show up on sensors :P

Alright, heres an idea for consideration:

Since my army is basically going to be equipped with FT muskets-of-doom, would anybody object to some sort of shielding system to reduce casualties?

With a regular army a shield would have to be one-per-soldier type of thing, but since we're marching into battle in nice neat lines, I could probobly arrange a one-per-hundred ratio.
Naturally, it wouldnt be a uber-stop-all-shield of doomz, but a method of preventing my guys from getting scythed down by machine gun fire.

Basically the shield would stop something like %50 of incoming small arms fire (on average of course, the % will depend on the volume of fire), and allow the rest to pass through.
This will, basically, reduce my casualties to a sustainable amount without resorting to plastering giant plates of metal all over my troops, while achieving the same effect.

Alright, heres an idea for consideration:

Since my army is basically going to be equipped with FT muskets-of-doom, would anybody object to some sort of shielding system to reduce casualties?

With a regular army a shield would have to be one-per-soldier type of thing, but since we're marching into battle in nice neat lines, I could probobly arrange a one-per-hundred ratio.
Naturally, it wouldnt be a uber-stop-all-shield of doomz, but a method of preventing my guys from getting scythed down by machine gun fire.

Basically the shield would stop something like %50 of incoming small arms fire (on average of course, the % will depend on the volume of fire), and allow the rest to pass through.
This will, basically, reduce my casualties to a sustainable amount without resorting to plastering giant plates of metal all over my troops, while achieving the same effect.

Nothing wrong with shields...Star Wars gungans use 'em, why can't you?

Obviously, the shield likely can't stop ten million doves going at 80% the speed of light, but reasonable things...

Nothing wrong with shields...Star Wars gungans use 'em, why can't you?

Obviously, the shield likely can't stop ten million doves going at 80% the speed of light, but reasonable things...

Suddenly I just had a vision of the effect of 10,000,000 doves going at %80 of the speed of light in a planets atmosphere.
Oh dear. Sudden deceleration. Im not sure, but I think that would result in 10,000,000 shortlived candles, wouldnt it? :P

Suddenly I just had a vision of the effect of 10,000,000 doves going at %80 of the speed of light in a planets atmosphere.
Oh dear. Sudden deceleration. Im not sure, but I think that would result in 10,000,000 shortlived candles, wouldnt it? :P

That would be pretty bright :p

That would be pretty bright :p

Nice way to celebrate the 4th of July or whatever your local equivalent is :P

On the mention of Gungans. They're dead. I killed them. I virus bombed Naboo XD

On the mention of Gungans. They're dead. I killed them. I virus bombed Naboo XD

Ho lawd. But what about the giant lizards? They were cool!

Nope. Killed everything. To be fair CW forced it upon me. Just like blowing up his moons or pounding Yavin...

Nope. Killed everything. To be fair CW forced it upon me. Just like blowing up his moons or pounding Yavin...

You make me sad.
(sniffle)
I wanted some giant lizards :(

Get them from somewhere else. The only thing I use Naboo now is sand from the blasted plains, diseased and fetid soil in rites to Nurgle :D

CW hates me for valid and manifold reasons, Naboo being one of 'em

Get them from somewhere else. The only thing I use Naboo now is sand from the blasted plains, diseased and fetid soil in rites to Nurgle :D

CW hates me for valid and manifold reasons, Naboo being one of 'em

But I wanted CANON giant lizards ;)
Oh well. Maybe some random diseased ones will evolve out of Nurgles playing around :P

Perhaps they will :D I oughta revisit once in a while. I'd imagine CW has it locked tight to prevent anything arising ;)

Perhaps they will :D I oughta revisit once in a while. I'd imagine CW has it locked tight to prevent anything arising ;)

I dont blame him.
Nothing like a fourty foot tall disease-shooting shield-generator-bearing lizard to ruin your day.

Lucian oughta come "liberate it". When the time comes, of course, when I'm ready to return and punish CW for all he's done. And take my Prize. :D

On the mention of Gungans. They're dead. I killed them. I virus bombed Naboo XD

I know someone who has a gungan nation; Emperor Jar Jar Binks. So, clearly not. :p

On the mention of Gungans. They're dead. I killed them. I virus bombed Naboo XD

I know someone who has a gungan nation; Emperor Jar Jar Binks. So, clearly not. :p

CW hates me for valid and manifold reasons

I thought everyone was supposed to hate you, I mean when I signed up for NS I remember having to commit to saying "I hate Chronosia". :p

I thought everyone was supposed to hate you, I mean when I signed up for NS I remember having to commit to saying "I hate Chronosia". :p

I dont hate Chronosia. I think hes cute :D

Even ICly, the Tolarian Academy deals with chaos/chaotic stuff all the time. As long as the forces of Chaos dont run around the Jade Star system tearing up real estate, the Academy has no conflict with them.

Forget about gods, once your technology goes far enough in the future first you get transhumans or transhumanoids, then you get haimans-- fused AI and humans or humanoids, and eventually transcendents-- beings who can upload their bodies and download their bodies at will into any conceivable construct, biological or material. A transcendent species could do things which we would have a hard time imagining, not being limited by the normal senses of a sentient-- being able to literally construct their senses, they would be able to eventually observe and manipulate matter at the subatomic level directly as well as make scalar constructs like ringworlds or other things. The Eternals would be at the low end of a transcendent species still maintaining their original forms. You might call the Gaians and the Eternals Ascendant or the beginning stages of transcendency.

On the mention of Gungans. They're dead. I killed them. I virus bombed Naboo XDMesa sure glad to see you!

~ All the 3.658 bn clones

Forget about gods, once your technology goes far enough in the future first you get transhumans or transhumanoids, then you get haimans-- fused AI and humans or humanoids, and eventually transcendents-- beings who can upload their bodies and download their bodies at will into any conceivable construct, biological or material. A transcendent species could do things which we would have a hard time imagining, not being limited by the normal senses of a sentient-- being able to literally construct their senses, they would be able to eventually observe and manipulate matter at the subatomic level directly as well as make scalar constructs like ringworlds or other things. The Eternals would be at the low end of a transcendent species still maintaining their original forms. You might call the Gaians and the Eternals Ascendant or the beginning stages of transcendency.

You're assuming of course, the gods in questions aren't godlike compared to transhumans.

Why hate me? I'm so luffable and quirky! Besides, I may not have killed all Gungans, but I killed the Source :D