NationStates Jolt Archive

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal2.jpg
VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - GIVING YOU POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE

That really doesn't wash. We're (NSCL) pretty extreme in our views. We're pro-extreme-freedom, and yet we lead (even if my a narrow margin) the polls.

It's not extremism...it's your FORM of extremism. (This goes for UDCP as well as RTP.)

Hmm I suppose but more and more people as a general trend are turning towards libertarianism (for some twisted reason). Revolutionary left-wing politics are no longer as mainstream as they were perhaps in the 1970's. The movement has been in a decline in the West in the past 30 years while growing in areas such as Southern America

There are two, or maybe three axes of evaluation. I was emphasising that we are not an extreme right party, whill Tex was emphasising that we have extreme support for personal liberty. If you read my post on education, for example you will see that extremism of that type is present. We allow the individual to choose, the school curricula are not regulated after 12 etc., but a free market rules in all things attitude is not part of our policy. We are not extreme capitalists, we are extreme liberals.

No conflict at all, just looking from different angles.
Exactly...and thank you, AB. You explained what I was thinking much better than I could've.

I haven't had enough caffeine today to be that coherent. :D

Hmm I suppose but more and more people as a general trend are turning towards libertarianism (for some twisted reason). Revolutionary left-wing politics are no longer as mainstream as they were perhaps in the 1970's. The movement has been in a decline in the West in the past 30 years while growing in areas such as Southern America
Yeah? What does that tell you?

indeed.

the UDCP is quite extreme in the changes we want to bring in, so again its not suprising we are #4 or 5 at the mo. then again 3 seats isn't bad at all
You're not advocating a revolution though, are you. You are the "acceptable" face of communism :rolleyes: Bollocks to that

http://img170.echo.cx/img170/5286/capw4eh.jpg

Seems you Classic Liberals have a conflict. I see Alien Born playing down your extremist side, and in the next post Texpunditistan saying that you're very extremist. Which is it? I support you guys, but conflicting messages one after the other make me uneasy.

That's why you should have voted for the NSMRR. Our message of small government, altruistic suffrage, anti-socialism and freedom is loud, clear and unconflicted. Support NSMRR, the sane option. :D

I strongly object to the fact that the classic liberals make it seem as though the democratic socialists want to eliminate choice. Leave that to the far left parties, not the Democratic Socialists, who just don't want business to take over our lives.

Yeah? What does that tell you?

It tells me that people are realising that communism and socialism are bad and do not achieve what they want but they also want more personal freedom than they get in the current state of capitalism which tends to be conservative.

Where does it say the far-left parties want to eliminate choice.

As Comrade Rosa Luxemburg said... "[The workers] dictatorship consists in the manner of applying democracy, not in its elimination!"

Yeah? What does that tell you?
People are becoming more selfish

I strongly object to the fact that the classic liberals make it seem as though the democratic socialists want to eliminate choice. Leave that to the far left parties, not the Democratic Socialists, who just don't want business to take over our lives.

As the DSP is planning an alliance with the UDCP, how does this make sense. I have pointed out repeatedly that the DSP is selling out to the communists. Perhaps you can persude your leadership that this is not a good idea, it colours you with their dark red stain.

Where does it say the far-left parties want to eliminate choice.

As Comrade Rosa Luxemburg said... "[The workers] dictatorship consists in the manner of applying democracy, not in its elimination!"

Oh come on now, let's be serious. Everyone knows we are no longer in the industrial revolution. There aren't enough blue collar jobs left to have the workers revolt against their overlords.

People are becoming more selfish
Yep. Notice anything about the quality of life in the United States as a result? See any trends in, say, life expectancy? Median income? Hmm?

There aren't enough blue collar jobs left to have the workers revolt against their overlords

The Marxist definition of classes - the ruling class are those that own the means of production. The working class - those that have to sell their labour power to survive.

The types of jobs may have changed, but the fundamental social relationships (wage labour vs. capital) have stayed the same.

Yep. Notice anything about the quality of life in the United States as a result? See any trends in, say, life expectancy? Median income? Hmm?

35 million Americans in poverty - three cheers for capitalism!

I strongly object to the fact that the classic liberals make it seem as though the democratic socialists want to eliminate choice. Leave that to the far left parties, not the Democratic Socialists, who just don't want business to take over our lives.
Thats bollocks. Look at our political compass- we're the most libertarian (small 'l') party running.

DHomme - classical liberals believe in things like private property, being freedom to own your own home and freedom to spend your money who you choose.

Whereas our freedom means - freedom from exploitation, freedom from racism, sexism, homophobia. Freedom from poverty and unemployment.

We are the true libertarians, not these capitalist pigs! Vote RTP!

35 million Americans in poverty - three cheers for capitalism!
How about taking this figure in context for a change? How about comparing American poverty levels with those of the remainder of the world? How about taking into account that we do, in fact, actually have more of an obesity problem in this country than a starvation problem?

Of course we have poor people. All societies have poor people. Also, you should probably realize that by the American definition, our poor folks are still a lot better off than just about any other poor demographic on the planet.

DHomme - classical liberals believe in things like private property, being freedom to own your own home and freedom to spend your money who you choose.

Whereas our freedom means - freedom from exploitation, freedom from racism, sexism, homophobia. Freedom from poverty and unemployment.

We are the true libertarians, not these capitalist pigs! Vote RTP!

True Libertarians? Don't make me laugh. :p :p Oh wait, i just did :p

I strongly object to the fact that the classic liberals make it seem as though the democratic socialists want to eliminate choice. Leave that to the far left parties, not the Democratic Socialists, who just don't want business to take over our lives.
The NSCL believes in freedom for EVERYONE... not just the select few... and not excluding business owners and other "enemies of the people".

We are the true libertarians, not these capitalist pigs! Vote RTP!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


I bet Trotsky is spinning in his grave ;)

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal2.jpg

Of course we have poor people. All societies have poor people.

And I suppose you don't care about that? Obviously poverty on a world scale is all relative. The richest people in America are wealthier than the richest people in Africa. Likewise with those in poverty. But it doesn't take away the fact that 35 million Americans are in poverty, does it?

America is the most unequal society in the world. Are you really proud of that?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


I bet Trotsky is spinning in his grave

Why? He would agree with me. Marxists want liberation from exploitation above all else. (great contribution by the way) ;)

True Libertarians? Don't make me laugh. :p :p Oh wait, i just did :p

Libertarians are keen to fight against every act of exploitation.... except those they benefit from

http://img39.echo.cx/img39/3366/openborders4lc.jpg

Are people still producing random pieces of propoganda? Can I do one? I've got one for DHomme. *cough*Vote Tink: the Northern choice*cough* (that wasn't it - but still vote Tink)

Vote for effectiveness, not ideology!

The Party of Whatever Works!

Eutrusca For President!

And I suppose you don't care about that? Obviously poverty on a world scale is all relative. The richest people in America are wealthier than the richest people in Africa. Likewise with those in poverty. But it doesn't take away the fact that 35 million Americans are in poverty, does it?

America is the most unequal society in the world. Are you really proud of that?
Wow, way to twist the facts to suit your needs. You should go into politics.

Honestly, now you're just not making any sense. I point out that our poor people are better off as a result of our economic and political theory, then you turn around and tell me that doesn't mean anything. Don't bring up poverty if you're not willing to discuss it in the context you mentioned.

http://img39.echo.cx/img39/3366/openborders4lc.jpg
*claps*

Alien Born, the reason "the odd one", the leader of the DSP, was still included on our memberlist is because it was posted by me on those forums so only I have the power to change it and I've been busy for the last week(ish) and missed the change in members so didn't update it.

Apologies for all the confusion. It's been updated now.

Vote for effectiveness, not ideology!

The Party of Whatever Works!

Eutrusca For President!
The party of Whatever Works - now how can I see that spiralling into horrific circumstances...
(In some govt. offices)
Politician - Excuse me, Eutrusca, this whole 'democracy' thing isn't working

Eutrusca - do whatever works

(Dictatorship ensues)

Another circumstance:

Politician - hey, people aren't productive enough and the wrong areas of the economy are growing fastest.

Eutrusca - Lets have some balanced growth here then. Oh, and throw these people in the gulag, I'm sure they be more productive if you whip them, don't feed them and brainwash them.

I put it to you all: The Party of whatever works is run BY STALIN'S GHOST!!!! :D

Wow, way to twist the facts to suit your needs. You should go into politics.

Honestly, now you're just not making any sense. I point out that our poor people are better off as a result of our economic and political theory, then you turn around and tell me that doesn't mean anything. Don't bring up poverty if you're not willing to discuss it in the context you mentioned.

:rolleyes: I mentioned 35 million people in poverty, then you said something along the lines of "compare that to the rest of the world's poor". And you accuse me of "twisting the facts to suit your needs"?

And anyway, the poverty line is "the level of income below which one cannot afford to purchase all the resources one requires to live." It's all relative, as I said. But that doesn't change the fact that 35 million Americans 'cannot afford to purchase all the resource one requires to live'. Not my words, but facts.

14.1 million Americans live in 'severe poverty', which is half below the poverty line. Another example of the superiority of capitalism? It's increasing by the way...and the rich are getting richer.

The party of Whatever Works - now how can I see that spiralling into horrific circumstances...
(In some govt. offices)
Politician - Excuse me, Eutrusca, this whole 'democracy' thing isn't working

Eutrusca - do whatever works

...

Actually, adhering blindly to a principle is the exact opposite of what we want to do. Read the manifesto to find out exactly. (I support the POWW, even though I don't think it's a very good name)

And I suppose you don't care about that? Obviously poverty on a world scale is all relative. The richest people in America are wealthier than the richest people in Africa. Likewise with those in poverty. But it doesn't take away the fact that 35 million Americans are in poverty, does it?

America is the most unequal society in the world. Are you really proud of that?

No, what America is proud of is that people like me can start out poor and have the opportunity to better their situation. The reason for the size of the divide is that some people have ridiculous amounts of money, but they earned it. And that has absolutely no bearing on the state of the poor in our country. Would it make you feel better if the richest people in the country only a couple hundred thousand? How would that help the poor? The fact is that America has a lower percentage of impovershed people than the vast majority of the world and the quality of life for those impovershed people is greater than the vast majority of the world. They have access to immunization. They have access to food. They have access to job opportunities and other ways to better their situation.

Also, your little misleading statistic does not account for the vast number of the impovershed in America that are mentally ill. We believe in this little thing called freedom so we can't incarcerate them and force them to get help so they have the freedom to live on the street if that seems better to them than an instution that will help them. How does your system do anything about this? It doesn't without taking away individual freedom.

Why? He would agree with me. Marxists want liberation from exploitation above all else. (great contribution by the way) ;)

What they want and what they get are totally different. Marxists want liberation from exploitation but what they get is a movement from being exploited by the hard work and ingenuity of business owners and they replace that with being exploited by the lazy and unworthy who burden the hard-working.

Alien Born, the reason "the odd one", the leader of the DSP, was still included on our memberlist is because it was posted by me on those forums so only I have the power to change it and I've been busy for the last week(ish) and missed the change in members so didn't update it.

Apologies for all the confusion. It's been updated now.
heh i still haven't updated the OP on the UDCP thread here... i'll do it after tea, but Odd One still hasn't expressley requested to unsubscribe from the party's ranks. but i suppose to avoid confusion i should remove him anyway.

nice to see you back Glitz, i been wondering where you were :)

:rolleyes: I mentioned 35 million people in poverty, then you said something along the lines of "compare that to the rest of the world's poor". And you accuse me of "twisting the facts to suit your needs"?
This is the part that confuses me. Our poor are better off than any other nations' and you're trying to tell me this is a bad thing because our rich people are also richer? What the fuck? You claim to be champions of the poor but seek to reform the system that places our 'poor' at a level above those of the remainder of civilization?

And anyway, the poverty line is "the level of income below which one cannot afford to purchase all the resources one requires to live." It's all relative, as I said. But that doesn't change the fact that 35 million Americans 'cannot afford to purchase all the resource one requires to live'. Not my words, but facts.
Aheheheh.... no. If that were the case, those 35 million people wouldn't be alive anymore. The Census Bureau has lots of differing definitions for 'poor,' mostly based on how large your family is and who's doing all the working, etc etc.

14.1 million Americans live in 'severe poverty', which is half below the poverty line. Another example of the superiority of capitalism? It's increasing by the way...and the rich are getting richer.
Yeah, because the Big Government Republicans are in power. Funny, Bush is the most fiscally liberal President this nation has ever had. He's increasing spending in almost every area of government, bringing it closer, in fact, to your ideal Nanny State. And the rich are getting richer.

Thank you for proving my point.

Actually, adhering blindly to a principle is the exact opposite of what we want to do. Read the manifesto to find out exactly. (I support the POWW, even though I don't think it's a very good name)
Sorry, I missed a bit off the end. I missed saying - *cough*Joke*cough*. I thought the smiley and the Stalin's ghost thing were a dead giveaway. :eek: For my next trick, I plan to do a propaganda satire which no-one will see is satire and will think I'm anti-Trotsky. Et Voilá! (http://img95.echo.cx/my.php?image=trotpick3ht.png) :)

BTW, the acronym "POWW" sounds like "Prisoner of War World". Don't use the acronym. Ever. :p

Why? He would agree with me. Marxists want liberation from exploitation above all else. (great contribution by the way) ;)

Because he brutally crushed people who had a stronger claim to calling themselves libertarian (anarchists came up with the term, in historical context. Libertarian = Anarchist).


He was a statist, despite what he claimed. And the existence of a vanguard party will only be the death of any revolution.

I don't know where to start with this one!

No, what America is proud of is that people like me can start out poor and have the opportunity to better their situation.

In theory, yes. If this is the case, how come the wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 39 percent of total net wealth? I suppose it's because "people are lazy" :rolleyes:


The reason for the size of the divide is that some people have ridiculous amounts of money, but they earned it.

Who deserves to be paid more. A nurse who saves people's lives, or a shareholder who sits on his arse all day? Do you really think a shareholder deserves more money than a nurse, or a doctor?

Would it make you feel better if the richest people in the country only a couple hundred thousand? How would that help the poor?

No. I would be happy when economic exploitation is abolished once and for all, so everyone can enjoy their lives.

The fact is that America has a lower percentage of impovershed people than the vast majority of the world

But the USA has the biggest divide in income in the world. That's worse than places in Africa ffs.

They have access to job opportunities and other ways to better their situation.

How does a poorly paid manual worker 'go about bettering their situation'?

How does your system do anything about this? It doesn't without taking away individual freedom.

Instead of simply reacting to things, we look at the causes. Not all mental illness is hereditary and genetic. Of course, with resources diverted to social welfare rather than defence/war, it will be far easier to treat people.

Hard work and ingenuity of business owners

Who wouldn't be rich without exploiting someone, somewhere along the line...

If your thesis were correct, that people who work hard earn lots of money, why aren't the sweatshop workers in Cambodia the richest people on earth? They seem to work harder than any of us!

and they replace that with being exploited by the lazy and unworthy

Jesus Christ, I didn't actually expect you to say all those who aren't rich are lazy! :rolleyes:

Because he brutally crushed people who had a stronger claim to calling themselves libertarian (anarchists came up with the term, in historical context. Libertarian = Anarchist).


He was a statist, despite what he claimed. And the existence of a vanguard party will only be the death of any revolution.

Oh, an anarchist. A 'vanguard' party would have been useful in the Spanish revolution of 1936, wouldn't it?

He was not a 'statist'. Do you seriously think the state could be abolished, or wither away, immediately after the Russian revolution? If you do, your historical and economic analysis of history fits in nicely with the other major flaws of anarchist theory.

final poster before some more work

http://img292.echo.cx/img292/975/bolox2km.jpg

This is the part that confuses me. Our poor are better off than any other nations' and you're trying to tell me this is a bad thing because our rich people are also richer? What the fuck? You claim to be champions of the poor but seek to reform the system that places our 'poor' at a level above those of the remainder of civilization?


Where did I say I wanted to 'reform' the system? And I don't want to make the poor richer. I want those that sell their labour power to run and control society.

Yeah, because the Big Government Republicans are in power. Funny, Bush is the most fiscally liberal President this nation has ever had. He's increasing spending in almost every area of government, bringing it closer, in fact, to your ideal Nanny State. And the rich are getting richer.

So liberal that he cuts corporation tax, aims to privatise pensions, inequality widens, increase in military budget. If that is your definition of liberal, I suggest you join the Nazi party.

Oh, an anarchist. A 'vanguard' party would have been useful in the Spanish revolution of 1936, wouldn't it?

Not as useful as a trustworthy ally.

He was not a 'statist'. Do you seriously think the state could be abolished, or wither away, immediately after the Russian revolution? If you do, your historical and economic analysis of history fits in nicely with the other major flaws of anarchist theory.

No, I think he was a statist because I think that he had no intention delivering what he promised.

heh i still haven't updated the OP on the UDCP thread here... i'll do it after tea, but Odd One still hasn't expressley requested to unsubscribe from the party's ranks. but i suppose to avoid confusion i should remove him anyway.

Well, according to Arridia the odd one left because he didn't agree with us. I obviously missed that. Maybe you did too :confused:

nice to see you back Glitz, i been wondering where you were :)

Nice to be back! Damn social life getting in the way of stuff :p Back to school tomorrow *sigh*...

So liberal that he cuts corporation tax, aims to privatise pensions, inequality widens, increase in military budget. If that is your definition of liberal, I suggest you join the Nazi party.

That could be a flame, to a mod and all, not smart.

Melkor said 'fiscally' liberal not liberal. Fiscally liberal means he likes to spend a lot of money and increase the governments budget.

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/3121/posterblue0hh.png

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/6232/anticommunistposter2gh.png

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/9701/altruisticposter9ht.png

The poster that was once here linking Stalin and POWW was a bad joke. I apolagize.

Since Dhomme complained that I wasn't being 'altruistic' enough, I decided to make the RTP a poster, too. :D

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/rtp1.gif

http://img81.echo.cx/img81/4084/sghost6il.png

So much for a PoWW-MRR alliance...

I don't know where to start with this one!

You did a nice job of explaining how you don't actually care about the poor. That's a great place to start.

In theory, yes. If this is the case, how come the wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 39 percent of total net wealth? I suppose it's because "people are lazy" :rolleyes:

It's not fair I don't care if one guy has half the wealth in America. What difference does it make as long as opportunity is offered (it is) and we have a social net to catch the unfortunate (we do)?

Who deserves to be paid more. A nurse who saves people's lives, or a shareholder who sits on his arse all day? Do you really think a shareholder deserves more money than a nurse, or a doctor?

The nurses get paid enough and that's all I care about. I don't complain because someone else is making more. I think a nurse is guaranteed her paycheck and the shareholder isn't, so he gets paid for the risk. I also don't feel bad when someone bets on the horses and wins because it has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever. Quick question - where would you rather go for healthcare, the US or the Soviet Union? Why do you think that is?

No. I would be happy when economic exploitation is abolished once and for all, so everyone can enjoy their lives.

So SOME people can enjoy their lives. There will always be someone being exploited. You just prefer that it be by the lazy and unimaginative rather than current system.

But the USA has the biggest divide in income in the world. That's worse than places in Africa ffs.

It's not fair Who cares? Why does that make ANY difference? Why does how much money you have have ANYTHING to do with my situation? It doesn't. It shouldn't. PERIOD.

How does a poorly paid manual worker 'go about bettering their situation'?

You'll have to be more specific. The average manual worker invested nothing in their skills versus the CEO who often spent a small fortune on education. Yet that manual worker makes a decent living. I wouldn't call a thirty dollar an hour carpenter poorly paid. That's manual. I wouldn't call the twenty bucks and hour plus that the average automobile line worker makes poorly paid either. Who are we talking about? The idiots that work at McDonalds?

Instead of simply reacting to things, we look at the causes. Not all mental illness is hereditary and genetic. Of course, with resources diverted to social welfare rather than defence/war, it will be far easier to treat people.

You're right it's not. But in every system it is still going to happen. In our system they have access to treatment but we can't force them to take it. Are you saying you will? Nice freedom. Otherwise, nothing you're saying makes any difference. It's plenty easy to treat people now, except they don't want treatment.

Who wouldn't be rich without exploiting someone, somewhere along the line...

Lame assumption. Ignored.

If your thesis were correct, that people who work hard earn lots of money, why aren't the sweatshop workers in Cambodia the richest people on earth? They seem to work harder than any of us!

Really? Are we talking about Cambodia? Is Cambodia a part of the US now? If they were, as you know, they would have a minimum wage and would likely be represented by unions and would be making a HELL of a lot more than they do now. Also, I think I also mentioned ingenuity. I'm not sure how making a skirt qualifies as ingenuity.

Jesus Christ, I didn't actually expect you to say all those who aren't rich are lazy! :rolleyes:

Nice how you took my quote out of context and then made it seem like I said something else. Is your argument so weak that you can't stand on your points? Hmm... maybe this is why Marxism doesn't work.

final poster before some more work

http://img292.echo.cx/img292/975/bolox2km.jpg

You do realise that "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." was the slogan of Ingsoc, English Socialism party?

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/rtp1.gif http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/udcp1.gif

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/dsp1.gif

If that is your definition of liberal, I suggest you join the Nazi party.

Wow, your argument is so solid here. You know some people actually try to win an argument with facts and logic, but, hey, you just avoid all that voodoo and just jump to invoking the Nazi name. Way to further your cause.

So much for a PoWW-MRR alliance...

I do not support this poster and it does not reflect MRR's policy. Undelia, please remove it.

Alien Born, the reason "the odd one", the leader of the DSP, was still included on our memberlist is because it was posted by me on those forums so only I have the power to change it and I've been busy for the last week(ish) and missed the change in members so didn't update it.

Apologies for all the confusion. It's been updated now.

The odd one could easily have posted a resignation notice. At any time, but did not. It is so easy to say, "Oh dear, you found out. Now we will pretend that we did not keep up to date with the state of affairs"

Well if that is true, then you can not be trusted to govern, or if you can be trusted to govern, the odd one was a member of your party after formingf the DSP. Either way round a conscientious voter would not consider either party. If they want left of centre than go with PoWW, or dare I say it RTP. But dont vote for a party that is either inefficient or dishonest.

If they want left of centre than go with PoWW, or dare I say it RTP. But dont vote for a party that is either inefficient or dishonest.
We in the POWW consider ourselves to be neither left nor right, nor even "centrist," but simply rational. :)

So much for a PoWW-MRR alliance...

Just a friendly little joke. Serriously though, you guys are alright. Military preparedness, civil rights, small government, its all good, afraid I don’t quite understand your healthcare policy though.
Anyway,

POWW is in no way affiliated with Stalin or his Ghost.

I humbly and sincerely apolagize for any offense I may have caused the Party of Whatever Works. :(

Wow, your argument is so solid here. You know some people actually try to win an argument with facts and logic, but, hey, you just avoid all that voodoo and just jump to invoking the Nazi name. Way to further your cause.
But you aren't denying you're secretly a neo-nazi fascist psycho...

OH MY GOD! I HAVE PROOF! (http://img89.echo.cx/my.php?image=jocanazi6dq.png) :p

Vote for effectiveness, not ideology!

The Party of Whatever Works!

Eutrusca For President!
LOL! [ and the crowd goes wild! ] :D

But you aren't denying you're secretly a neo-nazi fascist psycho...

OH MY GOD! I HAVE PROOF! (http://img89.echo.cx/my.php?image=jocanazi6dq.png) :p

My secret is out!!! ARGH!!!

The party of Whatever Works - now how can I see that spiralling into horrific circumstances...
(In some govt. offices)
Politician - Excuse me, Eutrusca, this whole 'democracy' thing isn't working

Eutrusca - do whatever works

(Dictatorship ensues)

Another circumstance:

Politician - hey, people aren't productive enough and the wrong areas of the economy are growing fastest.

Eutrusca - Lets have some balanced growth here then. Oh, and throw these people in the gulag, I'm sure they be more productive if you whip them, don't feed them and brainwash them.

I put it to you all: The Party of whatever works is run BY STALIN'S GHOST!!!! :D
Sigh. And just when I was starting to like you too! Tsk!

Sigh. And just when I was starting to like you too! Tsk!
...and for my next trick, I'm going to alienate everyone who has ever loved me!

The odd one could easily have posted a resignation notice. At any time, but did not. It is so easy to say, "Oh dear, you found out. Now we will pretend that we did not keep up to date with the state of affairs"

Well if that is true, then you can not be trusted to govern, or if you can be trusted to govern, the odd one was a member of your party after formingf the DSP. Either way round a conscientious voter would not consider either party. If they want left of centre than go with PoWW, or dare I say it RTP. But dont vote for a party that is either inefficient or dishonest.
how exactly does missing a post in a thread intrinsically mean the UDCP is unfit to govern?
besides, you've read our manifesto - the UDCP isn't about centralised state control but for devolution of power back to localised governments. give power back to the people!

Sigh. And just when I was starting to like you too! Tsk!

Yeah, he's really difficult to like becuase he wets the bed and he never changes the sheets. That's right! I said it! What ya got there, TTOL!!

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal2.jpg

So much for a PoWW-MRR alliance...
LOL!

Ideologically based politics! Don'tcha just love it? :D

BTW ... where was that posted? I can't find it.

I humbly and sincerely apolagize for any offense I may have caused the Party of Whatever Works. :(

I accept your apology (I can't speak for the rest of the party, but I'm sure they agree).

...and for my next trick, I'm going to alienate everyone who has ever loved me!
I rather suspect it's already far too late for that. :D

Yeah, he's really difficult to like becuase he wets the bed and he never changes the sheets. That's right! I said it! What ya got there, TTOL!!
Mouldy bed sheets.

I rather suspect it's already far too late for that. :D
I haven't alienated everyone just yet :p

We in the POWW consider ourselves to be neither left nor right, nor even "centrist," but simply rational. :)

Whether you consider yourself such or not, there are the explicit policies that you have stated that place the party slightly left of center. This of course may change, but it is the current situation.

Congrats on the 5 digits, you have joined an exclusive group.

OOPs, posting with my Libertarian Puppet (Alien Born if you hadn't guessed)

how exactly does missing a post in a thread intrinsically mean the UDCP is unfit to govern?
besides, you've read our manifesto - the UDCP isn't about centralised state control but for devolution of power back to localised governments. give power back to the people!

Declaring someone to be something he is not is a severe breach of rthat individual's rights. If you have a published party membership list, it HAS to be kept up to date, otherwise you are guilty of libel by declaring that someone is dumb enough to belong to your party when thay may have come to their senses.

If your party can not even do as simple a task as that, what chance does it have of running, in a controlled fashion, something as complex as a totaly controlled economy. None!

Oh :p as well.

That's better, back to myself again.

Declaring someone to be something he is not is a severe breach of rthat individual's rights. If you have a published party membership list, it HAS to be kept up to date, otherwise you are guilty of libel by declaring that someone is dumb enough to belong to your party when thay may have come to their senses.

If your party can not even do as simple a task as that, what chance does it have of running, in a controlled fashion, something as complex as a totaly controlled economy. None!

Oh :p as well.
heh, once again i live in the REAL WORLD and can't be here all the time to constantly trawl through the thread and keep updating the list - while i would do this more frequently normally, i've got exams on at the moment and just can't spare that time... i already post here too much :p


besides at least we have a members list, which is more than i can say for most of the parties standing here. compared to most we're pretty damn open and transparent - especially as anyone can view and post on our discussion forum as well!

Whether you consider yourself such or not, there are the explicit policies that you have stated that place the party slightly left of center. This of course may change, but it is the current situation.

Congrats on the 5 digits, you have joined an exclusive group.
LOL! "Exclusive" or just bored? :D

The specific stands we have taken on specific issues were carefully thought out based on what we consider best for the greatest number, best for those most in need of help, and the dicates of logic and reason. Should any of those change, so will the policies involved. :)

I haven't alienated everyone just yet :p
I'm sure you'll succeed. Just don't give up hope! :D

I accept your apology (I can't speak for the rest of the party, but I'm sure they agree).

Thank you.

I extend the olive branch as it were,


http://img88.echo.cx/img88/5585/dean7di.png

You do realise that "War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." was the slogan of Ingsoc, English Socialism party?
The entire point was that the party represented ANY authoritarian group and since capitalism is an authoritarian system....

Oh and by the way, I'm loving our "kill your overlords" one. Cheers, you capitalist swine

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/4370/homeless1ew.jpg

Oh and by the way, I'm loving our "kill your overlords" one. Cheers, you capitalist swine
No problem, you communist pig-dog.

The Revolutionary Trotskyist Party: The fear naught but the ice pick.

The odd one could easily have posted a resignation notice. At any time, but did not. It is so easy to say, "Oh dear, you found out. Now we will pretend that we did not keep up to date with the state of affairs"

Well if that is true, then you can not be trusted to govern, or if you can be trusted to govern, the odd one was a member of your party after formingf the DSP. Either way round a conscientious voter would not consider either party. If they want left of centre than go with PoWW, or dare I say it RTP. But dont vote for a party that is either inefficient or dishonest.

Firstly, nowhere did it say they were official records for people to be sure of. The whole point of those forums was for the UDCP members to discuss issues and arrange things before officially saying anything. If you took them as official records without confirmation, that's your fault.

Secondly, I am not a major role in the party and am one minor member who happened to post that list. You are free to judge the whole group by that but I strongly urge that you don't because I am one person out of many and this is one mistake. The group should not be held responsible for my mistake and I take full responsibilty as an individual. It is fairly obvious that there are other, more involved members who you should base your opinion of the group on.

Thirdly, actions have been taken to prevent anything happening like that again. Some other active, trustworthy members now have access to all posts on there so can edit and change if the poster (in this case me) is not there to change it.

Fourthly, in the future, I am happy to stand out of major governance if people find me inefficient or suspect dishonesty and at the very least I won't be partaking in anything if I know I won't be there to see them through.

@ Glitziness.

I respect your honesty in admitting your mistake but I was not getting at you personally anyway.

I am really getting at the odd one for not publicising this link and also at the proposed alliance between the UDCP and the DSP when the publically declared policies of the two parties are incompatible.

The 'you' in my post refers to the party to the UDCP, not to you singularly Glitziness. Please do not be personally offended.

@ Glitziness.

I respect your honesty in admitting your mistake but I was not getting at you personally anyway.

I am really getting at the odd one for not publicising this link and also at the proposed alliance between the UDCP and the DSP when the publically declared policies of the two parties are incompatible.

The 'you' in my post refers to the party to the UDCP, not to you singularly Glitziness. Please do not be personally offended.

I know you weren't getting at me personally and I'm not personally offended but I would much prefer to be taking personally responsible for something that only I had control over, in this case the updating of the member list; the odd one did have control over declaring membership of the UDCP and then cancelling that.

656 total votes
Cult of TInk Party -------------------------> 9.91% -> 2.4771 -> 2 seats
Democratic Socialist Party -----------------> 18.14% -> 4.5351 -> 5 seats
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance -> 3.81% -> 0.9527 -> 1 seat
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans -> 9.45% -> 2.3628 -> 2 seats
NS Classical Liberals ----------------------> 19.05% -> 4.7637 -> 5 seats
Party of Order -----------------------------> 2.74% -> 0.6860 -> 1 seat
Party of Whatever Works --------------------> 8.84% -> 2.2104 -> 2 seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party -------------> 4.27% -> 1.0671 -> 1 seat
United Democratic Communist Party ----------> 11.43% -> 2.8582 -> 3 seats
"Up yours!" Party --------------------------> 12.35% -> 3.0869 -> 3 seats
Knootian Analysis, 656 total votes
Economically Left-Wing Parties -------------> 11 seats
Economically Centrist Parties --------------> 4 seats
Economically Liberal Parties ---------------> 10 seats

And it would not surprise me at all if puppet-voting was occurring in this election. I voted once, but I can't say the same of some others that I know of.

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg

I am really getting at the odd one for not publicising this link and also at the proposed alliance between the UDCP and the DSP when the publically declared policies of the two parties are incompatible.
Merging those parties would be an excersize in hillarity.

Well, when I next come online, the election will be over, so... good luck to you all!

And, more importantly...

VOTE UDCP! :p

656 total votes
Cult of TInk Party -------------------------> 9.91% -> 2.4771 -> 2 seats
Democratic Socialist Party -----------------> 18.14% -> 4.5351 -> 5 seats
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance -> 3.81% -> 0.9527 -> 1 seat
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans -> 9.45% -> 2.3628 -> 2 seats
NS Classical Liberals ----------------------> 19.05% -> 4.7637 -> 5 seats
Party of Order -----------------------------> 2.74% -> 0.6860 -> 1 seat
Party of Whatever Works --------------------> 8.84% -> 2.2104 -> 2 seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party -------------> 4.27% -> 1.0671 -> 1 seat
United Democratic Communist Party ----------> 11.43% -> 2.8582 -> 3 seats
"Up yours!" Party --------------------------> 12.35% -> 3.0869 -> 3 seats
Knootian Analysis, 656 total votes
Economically Left-Wing Parties -------------> 11 seats
Economically Centrist Parties --------------> 4 seats
Economically Liberal Parties ---------------> 10 seats

And it would not surprise me at all if puppet-voting was occurring in this election. I voted once, but I can't say the same of some others that I know of.
Surely you don't mean [ gasp! ] election fraud!!! Here? Oh the horror! The horror! ;)

Help Restore Sanity to the Political Process!

Vote for the Party of Whatever Works!

656 total votes
Cult of TInk Party -------------------------> 9.91% -> 2.4771 -> 2 seats
Democratic Socialist Party -----------------> 18.14% -> 4.5351 -> 5 seats
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance -> 3.81% -> 0.9527 -> 1 seat
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans -> 9.45% -> 2.3628 -> 2 seats
NS Classical Liberals ----------------------> 19.05% -> 4.7637 -> 5 seats
Party of Order -----------------------------> 2.74% -> 0.6860 -> 1 seat
Party of Whatever Works --------------------> 8.84% -> 2.2104 -> 2 seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party -------------> 4.27% -> 1.0671 -> 1 seat
United Democratic Communist Party ----------> 11.43% -> 2.8582 -> 3 seats
"Up yours!" Party --------------------------> 12.35% -> 3.0869 -> 3 seats
Knootian Analysis, 656 total votes
Economically Left-Wing Parties -------------> 11 seats
Economically Centrist Parties --------------> 4 seats
Economically Liberal Parties ---------------> 10 seats

And it would not surprise me at all if puppet-voting was occurring in this election. I voted once, but I can't say the same of some others that I know of.
Just out of curiosity, which parties did you place as "centrist?"

Just out of curiosity, which parties did you place as "centrist?"

I used Knoot's classification scheme (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9007337&postcount=1027) from earlier in the thread. Specifically:

Revolutionary Trotskyist Party - Trotskyist
United Democratic Communist Party - UDCP
Democratic Socialist Party - Dem. Soc.
Cult of Tink Party - Tink
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance - MaOBRA
Party of Whatever Works - W.W.
Party of Order - Order
NS Classic Liberals - Liberal
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans - Republican
"Up yours!" Party - Up Yours

Parties are arranged on a left/right scale as percieved by me after reading the respective party manifesto's. In addition to arranging them on a left-right scale I have subdivided the parties into three main groups: an economically liberal group (blueish colours) and an economically left-wing group (reddish colours). Green parties are in the middle.

I've got a nice little graphic of the total number of seats which I'll post tomorrow when voting closes (so the seat allocation is accurate).

NS Classic Liberals 5
Democratic Socialist Party 5
Up yours! Party 3
United Democratic Communist Party 3
Cult of TInk Party 2
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans 2
Party of Whatever Works 2
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party 1
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance 1
Party of Order 1
Total 25

This was created using the "Largest remainder system" but without the quorum. This is, I bleieve, how most elections are handled: you allocate the delegates by rounding down first, than appoint the remaining delegates to those parties with the largest remainders.

As to the current debate that is going on about Communism (which belongs in another thread!!!), I can only point out that government is, always has been, and always will be, a monopolistic corporation, and once you look at this obvious (once it is pointed out) fact in that light, the entire argument of Communism falls to pieces. You might argue that every individual is an equal shareholder in the corporation, but as Enron proved, even shareholders can get screwed over (and that is only exacerbated when you spread it out amongst millions of shareholders and make them all work for some aspect or other of that corporation, and have their children taught by their corporation, and have nearly every aspect of their lives controlled by their corporation). It's a choice between Big Business (which is held in check by it's competitors, one of which is government) and a Really Big Business (which is held in check by basically nothing), and I think I'll stick with Big Buisness, because at least if I get tired of one, I can always move to another. With a lack of diversity of opinion, innovation, and, yes, even economics, there is no accountability, and without accountability, lies, corruption, and mediocrity reign supreme.

I was ordered to attack the communists which I now do diligently:

(http://img93.echo.cx/my.php?image=comic8ex.png)

[IMG]http://img93.echo.cx/img93/6232/anticommunistposter2gh.png

@ Undelia. For Gods sake shrink that image.

that picture needs resizing

I used Knoot's classification scheme (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9007337&postcount=1027) from earlier in the thread. Specifically:

I've got a nice little graphic of the total number of seats which I'll post tomorrow when voting closes (so the seat allocation is accurate).
When you listed the parties in this post, did you list them as all part of a continum from left to right? In other words, in your list would the lowest "red" party be closest to the "centrist" parties and the highest "blue" party be closest of the "blue" parties to "centrist?"

We do have this: http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?topic=423366 of course.

When you listed the parties in this post, did you list them as all part of a continum from left to right? In other words, in your list would the lowest "red" party be closest to the "centrist" parties and the highest "blue" party be closest of the "blue" parties to "centrist?"

That's what I think Knootoss meant to do, and that's how I have them listed on my spreadsheet. However, I haven't done any major policy analyses of my own, so I'm not totally sure of that.

Dear GOD, Undelia. You think you could make that image any larger?

That's what I think Knootoss meant to do, and that's how I have them listed on my spreadsheet. However, I haven't done any major policy analyses of my own, so I'm not totally sure of that.

Here are the political compass test results: http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?topic=423366

That's what I think Knootoss meant to do, and that's how I have them listed on my spreadsheet. However, I haven't done any major policy analyses of my own, so I'm not totally sure of that.
Interesting. A few surprises in there! :)

Sorry about the image, all. I resized it before I uploaded it, but for some reason it reverted to its original size. Anyway, its fixed now.

These are the results I got when I worked out the results with the 4% quorum.

NS Classic Liberals 5 Seats
Democratic Socialist Party 5 Seats
"Up yours!" Party 3 Seats
United Democratic Communist Party 3 Seats
Cult of TInk Party 3 Seats
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans 3 Seats
Party of Whatever Works 2 Seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party 1 Seat

Total 25

The voting number is 666. Be afraid if you are religious ;)

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg

These are the results I got when I worked out the results with the 4% quorum.

NS Classic Liberals 5 Seats
Democratic Socialist Party 5 Seats
"Up yours!" Party 3 Seats
United Democratic Communist Party 3 Seats
Cult of TInk Party 3 Seats
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans 3 Seats
Party of Whatever Works 2 Seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party 1 Seat

Total 25

Why should a party with under 10% of the vote get three seats? Essentially you're giving them the reward for 4% of the vote for 1.76%. Lets only let parties round up when they're less then 1.5% away from another seat.

Libre Arbitre graciously supports the Classic Liberal Party.

Libre Arbitre graciously supports the Classic Liberal Party.
Nice one. Good to have your support Libre Arbitre.

Libre Arbitre graciously supports the Classic Liberal Party.
Join the party forum: http://s2.phpbbforfree.com/forums/index.php?mforum=classicliberal

http://img75.echo.cx/img75/8338/altruisticposter8mb.png

http://img83.echo.cx/img83/2121/ohgodyes0qn.jpg

The voting number is 666. Be afraid if you are religious ;)

Nah. http://www.google.com/search?q=666+616&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

Help Give The Workers A Say In Politics!
Vote For The Revolutionary Trotskyist Party

No offense, but I see some pretty lame posters here. I'd be willing to help any political party with their graphic design as far as logos, posters, etc. I'm no professional, but I'm pretty good at that kinda thing, and I don't care who wins anyway.

No offense, but I see some pretty lame posters here.
I know you're not referring to my posters. :mad:

No offense, but I see some pretty lame posters here. I'd be willing to help any political party with their graphic design as far as logos, posters, etc. I'm no professional, but I'm pretty good at that kinda thing, and I don't care who wins anyway.
You cannot seriously consider the NSCL's posters lame. They are great, of the other parties, i think the UDCP have good posters design wise (not message wise ;) ) I have not seen any campaigning really today from COTP or DSP. Yet they still get votes. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Ah, Texpudistan beat me to it. They are Tex's posters and they are damn cool.

I think mine are alright considering they're done in paint.

http://img39.echo.cx/img39/3366/openborders4lc.jpg

I voted for MOBRA. :D

http://nootropics.com/albert-einstein.jpg


You Know this Guy? That is one smart dude. He REVOLUTIONIZED the way we think about the universe. Maybe we can take his wisdom into account in this NS General Election!


Let's see what he would have to say about the Party of Classic Liberals -

"An oligarchy of private capital cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society because under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information."
Albert Einstein

The minority, the ruling class at present, has the schools and press, usually the Church as well, under its thumb. This enables it to organize and sway the emotions of the masses, and make its tool of them.
Albert Einstein

So it's ALREADY hard to control wealthy private capitalists... lets read on -

Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile.
Albert Einstein

One should guard against preaching to young people success in the customary form as the main aim in life. The most important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the value of the result to the community.
Albert Einstein

Well! So the discoverer of relativity believes we should live, not to hedonistically serve ourselves at the expense of others, but to aid our communities! Any other pieces of wisdom?

"Not until the creation and maintenance of decent conditions of life for all people are recognized and accepted as a common obligation of all people and all countries - not until then shall we, with a certain degree of justification, be able to speak of humankind as civilized."
Albert Einstein

That sounds like the Social Democratic Party to me!

Vote with Einstein, don't vote for the greed, selfishness and hedonism of the NS Classic Liberals, but for the caring, compassionate Social Democratic Party! Let us advance forward towards the future, hand in hand with our neighbours, not in a battle over resources! Freedom is only an illusion if you are a slave to greed and business!

Being good at physics doesn't automatically make one good at everything else.

The Party of Whatever Works has just gone over 10%, by my calculations that secures them a third seat. The DSP has only 4 seats at the moment, the NSCL has five.

VOTE FOR THE NS CLASSIC LIBERALS

Being good at physics doesn't automatically make one good at everything else.
Exactly.

I wonder what Stephen Hawking's political views are.

Exactly.

I wonder what Stephen Hawking's political views are.
Hes a massive racist

http://img251.echo.cx/img251/882/bashthefash1df.jpg

My current estimates for seat distribution (after 690 votes cast)

CoTP 2
DSP 4
MaOBR 1
C. Libs 5
MRR 2
PoO 1
PoWW 3
RTP 1
UDCP 3
UYP 3

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal1.jpg


My current estimates for seat distribution (after 690 votes cast)
CoTP 2,
DSP 4,
MaOBR 1,
C. Libs 5,
MRR 2,
PoO 1,
PoWW 3,
RTP 1,
UDCP 3,
UYP 3I agree with that

I know you're not referring to my posters. :mad:
I said some. Some are very good. Good conservative. Good boy.

I said some. Some are very good. Good conservative. Good boy.
LMAO

/me bites you for venturing into the yard unannounced

:p

Oh look, PoWW jumped ten votes in like an hour. :rolleyes:

I am the very model of a modern Libertarian:
I teem with glowing notions for proposals millenarian,
I've nothing but contempt for ideologies collectivist
(My own ideas of social good tend more toward the Objectivist).
You see, I've just discovered, by my intellectual bravery,
That civic obligations are all tantamount to slavery;
And thus that ancient pastime, viz., complaining of taxation,
Assumes the glorious aspect of a war for liberation!

[Chorus:]
You really must admit it's a delightful revelation:
To bitch about your taxes is to fight for liberation!

I bolster up my claims with lucubrations rather risible
About the Founding Fathers and the market's hand invisible;
In fact, my slight acquaintance with the fountainhead Pierian
Makes me the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
His very slight acquaintance with the fountainhead Pierian
Makes him the very model of a modern Libertarian!

All "public wealth" is robbery, we never will accede to it;
You have no rights in anything if you can't show your deed to it.
(But don't fear repossession by our Amerind minority:
Those treaties aren't valid---Uncle Sam had no authority!)
We realize whales and wolves and moose find wilderness quite vital,
And we'll give back their habitats---if they can prove their title.
But people like unspoiled lands (we too will say "hooray" for them),
So we have faith that someone else will freely choose to pay for them.

[Chorus:]
Yes, when the parks are auctioned it will be a lucky day for them---
We're confident that someone else will freely choose to pay for them!

We'll guard the health of nature by self-interest most astute:
Since pollution is destructive, no one ever will pollute.
Thus factories will safeguard our communities riparian---
I am the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
Yes, factories will safeguard our communities riparian,
He is the very model of a modern Libertarian!

In short, when I can tell why individual consumers
Know best who should approve their drugs and who should treat their tumors;
Why civilized existence in its intricate confusion
Will be simple and straightforward, absent government intrusion;
Why markets cannot err within the system I've described,
Why poor folk won't be bullied and why rich folk won't be bribed,
And why all vast inequities of power and position
Will vanish when I wave my wand and utter "COMPETITION!"---

[Chorus:]
He's so much more exciting than a common politician,
Inequities will vanish when he hollers "Competition!"

---And why my lofty rhetoric and arguments meticulous
Inspire shouts of laughter and the hearty cry, "Ridiculous!",
And why my social theories all seem so pre-Sumerian---
I'll be the very model of a modern Libertarian!

[Chorus:]
His novel social theories all seem so pre-Sumerian---
He is the very model of a modern Libertarian!

Vote for NS Classic Liberals... I don't think so.

You Know this Guy? That is one smart dude. He REVOLUTIONIZED the way we think about the universe. Maybe we can take his wisdom into account in this NS General Election!


A recent Nobel Prize Winner in ecological science, Wangari Maathai, said that AIDS is a biologically engineered virus designed by whites to kill black people. Does that mean, even though she's smart, that she's correct in that area? No. Same goes for Einstein.

The puppet wanking has reached epidemic proportions. Maybe I should run and start making nations to vote for my party while I still have the chance. :rolleyes:

If the NSCL is gonna grab an anthem, so are we


The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts blood dyed its every fold.


(chorus)Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

Look round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise,
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung
Chicago swells the surging throng.

(chorus)

It waved above our infant might,
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We must not change its colour now.

(chorus)

It well recalls the triumphs past,
It gives the hope of peace at last;
The banner bright, the symbol plain,
Of human right and human gain.

(chorus)

It suits today the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
To cringe before the rich man's frown,
And haul the sacred emblem down.

(chorus)

With heads uncovered swear we all
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

(chorus)

The puppet wanking has reached epidemic proportions. Maybe I should run and start making nations to vote for my party while I still have the chance. :rolleyes:

Don't cheat. The others may be dickheads but you dont have to be

If the NSCL is gonna grab an anthem, so are we


The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts blood dyed its every fold.


(chorus)Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

Look round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise,
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung
Chicago swells the surging throng.

(chorus)

It waved above our infant might,
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We must not change its colour now.

(chorus)

It well recalls the triumphs past,
It gives the hope of peace at last;
The banner bright, the symbol plain,
Of human right and human gain.

(chorus)

It suits today the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
To cringe before the rich man's frown,
And haul the sacred emblem down.

(chorus)

With heads uncovered swear we all
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.

(chorus)




beautiful,

is that yours?

beautiful,

is that yours?
The Red Flag by Jim Connell has now officially been claimed for the RTP. TAKE THAT, other leftist parties!

Don't cheat. The others may be dickheads but you dont have to be

It would be nice if we had a mod to keep tabs on the votes.

If the NSCL is gonna grab an anthem, so are we
If you hadn't noticed, that was someone RAGGING on the NSCL that posted that "anthem", not one of our members.

Oh look, PoWW jumped ten votes in like an hour. :rolleyes:
Yeah... and the DSP went from 10 votes behind to within 3 votes in like 30 minutes.

I SERIOUSLY smell some puppet-stacking going on here. :mad:

If you hadn't noticed, that was someone RAGGING on the NSCL that posted that "anthem", not one of our members.

Hahaha. Tough. We're still nicking an anthem and I'm off to bed. Night night

Yeah... and the DSP went from 10 votes behind to within 3 votes.

I SERIOUSLY smell some puppet-stacking going on here. :mad:

Ugh. Why do people have to do things like this?

Yeah... and the DSP went from 10 votes behind to within 3 votes in like 30 minutes.

I SERIOUSLY smell some puppet-stacking going on here. :mad:

Makes me sick. Like I said, Mod Intervention for the win!

Yeah... and the DSP went from 10 votes behind to within 3 votes in like 30 minutes.

I SERIOUSLY smell some puppet-stacking going on here. :mad:

In the unlikely event that PoWW had puppet voters, I'd like to say that I strongly condemn this abuse of democracy.

Of course, I strongly condemn puppet voters for other parties as well.

Yeah... and the DSP went from 10 votes behind to within 3 votes in like 30 minutes.

I SERIOUSLY smell some puppet-stacking going on here. :mad:

I really doubt that any PoWW people have been using puppets. Our strength has been gradually climbing all day, not just the last half hour. Of course if the mods have a way of investigating it (for ALL parties) they should.

I really doubt that any PoWW people have been using puppets.
They had best NOT be! :mad:

I'm pretty sure the voting is secret but never mind.

This happened the other day, its perfectly plausible that people are chatting to other nations on IRC and MSN etc and asking them to vote. Melkor did this as did myself (not too successfully on my part :( )

656 total votes
Cult of TInk Party -------------------------> 9.91% -> 2.4771 -> 2 seats
Democratic Socialist Party -----------------> 18.14% -> 4.5351 -> 5 seats
Mole and Other Borrowing Rodents' Alliance -> 3.81% -> 0.9527 -> 1 seat
NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans -> 9.45% -> 2.3628 -> 2 seats
NS Classical Liberals ----------------------> 19.05% -> 4.7637 -> 5 seats
Party of Order -----------------------------> 2.74% -> 0.6860 -> 1 seat
Party of Whatever Works --------------------> 8.84% -> 2.2104 -> 2 seats
Revolutionary Trotskyist Party -------------> 4.27% -> 1.0671 -> 1 seat
United Democratic Communist Party ----------> 11.43% -> 2.8582 -> 3 seats
"Up yours!" Party --------------------------> 12.35% -> 3.0869 -> 3 seats
Knootian Analysis, 656 total votes
Economically Left-Wing Parties -------------> 11 seats
Economically Centrist Parties --------------> 4 seats
Economically Liberal Parties ---------------> 10 seats

And it would not surprise me at all if puppet-voting was occurring in this election. I voted once, but I can't say the same of some others that I know of.
impressive & jolly good (pip pip what what)

and for the record i voted once like a good little boy, i have no puppets

When the election closes or as soon as possible before the election should be checked just to make sure everything is fair. Either that or make all of the voters go through two years of service. ;)

I'm pretty sure the voting is secret but never mind.

This happened the other day, its perfectly plausible that people are chatting to other nations on IRC and MSN etc and asking them to vote. Melkor did this as did myself (not too successfully on my part :( )
which would go some way to explaining why "Up Yours" has overtaken the UDCP in the last day after being very much behind since the start of the election. :(

I've been informed that Moderators cannot check the identities of voters.

Of course, even if they could check, there's no reason for them to enforce fairness. It's not in the rules or anything that there should be "one player, one vote".

I've been informed that Moderators cannot check the identities of voters.

Of course, even if they could check, there's no reason for them to enforce fairness. It's not in the rules or anything that there should be "one player, one vote".

That is what i thought, maybe it should be a public poll next time?

I don't think it should as we should be entitled to secret ballot.

That is what i thought, maybe it should be a public poll next time?

I don't think it should as we should be entitled to secret ballot.
a public poll wouldn't help unless the parent idenity of all puppets is known, and thats just not the case for most puppets.

the most fair way of doing this would be on a seperate website using a system that logs IP addresses and only allows 1 vote per IP. i think i could cobble this together (done it before i think), though it would mean voting would be less accessable so it might discourage voters a little

a public poll wouldn't help unless the parent idenity of all puppets is known, and thats just not the case for most puppets.

the most fair way of doing this would be on a seperate website using a system that logs IP addresses and only allows 1 vote per IP. i think i could cobble this together (done it before i think), though it would mean voting would be less accessable so it might discourage voters a little
I'm pretty sure a lot of voters would be discouraged at having to register at another forum and vote.

the most fair way of doing this would be on a seperate website using a system that logs IP addresses and only allows 1 vote per IP. i think i could cobble this together (done it before i think), though it would mean voting would be less accessable so it might discourage voters a little

This wouldn't necessarily work, due to the shared IP addresses of AOL users and dial-up users. For instance, somebody using Verizon could disconnect from the Internet, wait a bit for a new IP, reconnect, and vote again.

You Know this Guy? That is one smart dude. He REVOLUTIONIZED the way we think about the universe. Maybe we can take his wisdom into account in this NS General Election!


Um. I am sure that someone has already replied to this, but let me see.

My brother in law is one of the leading sensei in the world in Aikido (true) let us follow his political advice.

What do you mean no, what does a sensei in Aikido know about politics? He clearly knows as much as a pubicity hungry physicist with second rate mathematical skills. If you are going to argue from authority (not a good strategy to start with ) at least choose an authority in the field under discussion.

a pubicity hungry physicist

Haha ... pubicity. :D


Sorry.

This wouldn't necessarily work, due to the shared IP addresses of AOL users and dial-up users. For instance, somebody using Verizon could disconnect from the Internet, wait a bit for a new IP, reconnect, and vote again.
true but it would make it more difficult for the broadband users to cheat, and make illegal voting in general more difficult - at least for some


damn AOL :mad:

That is what i thought, maybe it should be a public poll next time?

I don't think it should as we should be entitled to secret ballot.

I don't see the need for a secret ballot being more important than the need for a fair election. The question is what produces the fairest election? On an anonymous forum I do not think intimidation is a major factor but puppet voting could be. So I would go for a public poll next time. The mods could then identify puppets if they were so willing.

It happens that I posted here as a puppet that I created to remain in my old region after leaving for my party's region, but I voted once only.

the most fair way of doing this would be on a seperate website using a system that logs IP addresses and only allows 1 vote per IP. i think i could cobble this together (done it before i think), though it would mean voting would be less accessable so it might discourage voters a little
Actually, it would take me maybe 20 minutes to set such a site/voting system up that would check IPs but not require a registration...and it helps that I have 3 SQL databases doing nothing at the moment. :D

true but it would make it more difficult for the broadband users to cheat, and make illegal voting in general more difficult - at least for some


damn AOL :mad:

It would create problems for ensuring that everyone has a vote. For example both my wife and myself have NS accounts, and we access the internet through the same router (home lan) so we have the same IP address. As I have no interest in joining the UN, this is not normally a problem, but if this type of activity were to be restricted to one vote per IP, then who gets to vote ? (She does not agree with me politcally! Imagine the discussions at home folks.)

Actually, it would take me maybe 20 minutes to set such a site/voting system up that would check IPs but not require a registration...and it helps that I have 3 SQL databases doing nothing at the moment. :D
excellent :)

but there have been problems with IP logging already noted with regard to voting... and ideas as to get round them?

Haha ... pubicity. :D


Sorry.

Fair enough, the bottle of wine at dinner has affected my typing, so please excuse typos.

But that one was funny, if you know anything about AE's life story.

Fair enough, the bottle of wine at dinner has affected my typing, so please excuse typos.

But that one was funny, if you know anything about AE's life story.

Now I'm curious.

To the Googlemobile!

It would create problems for ensuring that everyone has a vote. For example both my wife and myself have NS accounts, and we access the internet through the same router (home lan) so we have the same IP address. As I have no interest in joining the UN, this is not normally a problem, but if this type of activity were to be restricted to one vote per IP, then who gets to vote ? (She does not agree with me politcally! Imagine the discussions at home folks.)

So true. My flatmates and i have radically different views, one being a social democrat, one being a communist and me being a conservative voting classic liberal

It would create problems for ensuring that everyone has a vote. For example both my wife and myself have NS accounts, and we access the internet through the same router (home lan) so we have the same IP address. As I have no interest in joining the UN, this is not normally a problem, but if this type of activity were to be restricted to one vote per IP, then who gets to vote ? (She does not agree with me politcally! Imagine the discussions at home folks.)
ooh ok i don't want to put you through any unnecessary 'domestics' :p

another very good point. looks like IP logging isn't going to work either for both the issues raised :(

so if having a public poll won't work either cos we don't know whose puppets are whose, then what can we do to get a fair election? :confused:

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERAL - HAVE POWER OVER YOUR OWN LIFE
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal8.jpg
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal1.jpg

http://www.hlj.me.uk/udcp/banners/UDCP%203.jpg

Now I'm curious.

To the Googlemobile!

Nothing specific, just that he was supposedly very sexually naïve.

http://www.hlj.me.uk/udcp/banners/UDCP%203.jpg

Ok that one made me laugh. Good one PM :p

Ok that one made me laugh. Good one PM :p
:D


edit: and with that i go to bed. night all :)

Nothing specific, just that he was supposedly very sexually naïve.
Now I feel disappointed. I was hoping it had something to do with his hairstyle.

http://www.hlj.me.uk/udcp/banners/UDCP%203.jpg
Wouldn't the Furby represent capitalism, though?


Evil demented Furby scum! Google brings me Furby hate (http://www.google.com/Top/Recreation/Humor/Bizarre/Anti-Furby/). Me loves Google!

How the DSP are leaping up in votes is beyond me (puppets perhaps?) but i urge people to VOTE CLASSIC LIBERAL

I also must bow out and go to bed, i will check back tomorrow but i must really spend most of the day revising.

Night all. Good luck everyone! (well, except the lefties :p )

How the DSP are leaping up in votes is beyond me (puppets perhaps?) but i urge people to VOTE CLASSIC LIBERAL

I also must bow out and go to bed, i will check back tomorrow but i must really spend most of the day revising.

Night all. Good luck everyone! (well, except the lefties :p )

I would not accuse puppeteering, I would consider time zones and say good evening West Coast USA. :(

I would not accuse puppeteering, I would consider time zones and say good evening West Coast USA. :(
Yep... also known as the "Left Coast".

Yep... also known as the "Left Coast".Lol. I had to vote Classic Liberals when i voted earlier. :D

Lol. I had to vote Classic Liberals when i voted earlier. :D

Can I correct your phrasing there?

You chose to vote Classic Liberal: we do not require anyone to do anything (unlike the socialists) !

Vote whatever needed to keep the commies out of power!

We don't require people to do anything either. We just make sure that wealth is fairly distributed (according to both work done AND need). Please note that under the Socialists, the more you earn, the more you get taxed - a fair system. This money goes towards welfare, such as starving children who cannot help themselves. The Classic Liberals do not care about this. How fair is that? They say that if you're poor then you should just work harder. I'm sorry, are you suggesting sweat shops for the children now?

As for the jump, there has been no puppet wanking. Merely good advertising. We feel that the Classic Liberals are merely bitter.

We don't require people to do anything either. We just make sure that wealth is fairly distributed (according to both work done AND need). Please note that under the Socialists, the more you earn, the more you get taxed - a fair system. This money goes towards welfare, such as starving children who cannot help themselves. The Classic Liberals do not care about this. How fair is that? They say that if you're poor then you should just work harder. I'm sorry, are you suggesting sweat shops for the children now?

As for the jump, there has been no puppet wanking. Merely good advertising. We feel that the Classic Liberals are merely bitter.
http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal5.jpg

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal9.jpg

Not all people are altruistic. That is reality. So we need to make sure that those with means help those in need.

Also, people with little money should naturally pay less tax than those with much. You are merely pandering to the rich.

Vote whatever needed to keep the commies out of power!

PoWW would be the best for that. If we overtake the UDCP we might take a seat from the Reds.

Heres our forum:
http://s2.phpbbforfree.com/forums/powwforum.html

We do require people to do things . We just make sure that wealth is unfairly distributed (not according to work done BUT whinginess). Please note that under the Socialists, the more you earn, the more gets stolen from you - an unfair system. This money goes towards welfare, such as starving politicians who can help themselves whenever they want. The Classic Liberals do not allow this. How fair is that? They say that if you're poor then you should have a chance. I'm sorry, are you suggesting sweet shops for the children now?

As for the jump, there has been no puppet wanking. Merely good advertising. We feel that the Classic Liberals are merely bitter.

I said that there was probably no puppet wanking. We are not bitter, we are right.

PoWW would be the best for that. If we overtake the UDCP we might take a seat from the Reds.

Heres our forum:
http://s2.phpbbforfree.com/forums/powwforum.html

Yeah I know, I voted for the PoWW.

With 723 votes, taking into account the 4% quorum, which reduces it to 679 votes, gives the following:


Party Votes Percent Seats

CoT Party 68 10.01% 3
DS Party 136 20.03% 5
NSCL 137 20.18% 5
NSMRR 67 9.87% 2
PoWW 74 10.90% 3
RT Party 34 5.07% 1
UDC Party 77 11.34% 3
"UY!" Party 86 12.67% 3

Total 679 100.07% 25

I said that there was probably no puppet wanking. We are not bitter, we are right.
I wasn't pointing at you, more Wegason or whatever that silly person's name was.

And no, you're not right.

As for the jump, there has been no puppet wanking. Merely good advertising. We feel that the Classic Liberals are merely bitter.

Anybody else get shivers up their spine from that? All I heard was:

"There is no forced labor. The people want to work themselves to death out in Siberia. You Capitalists are merely bitter."

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/3121/posterblue0hh.png

http://img88.echo.cx/img88/5585/dean7di.png

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/6232/anticommunistposter2gh.png

[img=http://img93.echo.cx/img93/2586/comic8ex.th.png] (http://img93.echo.cx/my.php?image=comic8ex.png)

is the way to go

With 723 votes, taking into account the 4% quorum, which reduces it to 679 votes, gives the following:


Party Votes Percent Seats

CoT Party 68 10.01% 3
DS Party 136 20.03% 5
NSCL 137 20.18% 5
NSMRR 67 9.87% 2
PoWW 74 10.90% 3
RT Party 34 5.07% 1
UDC Party 77 11.34% 3
"UY!" Party 86 12.67% 3

Total 679 100.07% 25


So parties with less then 4% have no chance of winning a seat? In most of my estimates I've been rounding up MAOBR and the Party of Order to 4%. Maybe they can round up if they have more then 3% of the vote?

It's too bad that the creator of this thread didn't make the poll public. Now we have as useless and unfair an election as... well, as in real life!

And no, you're not right.
Wait, Alien Born, who said there probably is no puppetry going on, is not right?

I don't believe you meant to say that.

So parties with less then 4% have no chance of winning a seat? In most of my estimates I've been rounding up MAOBR and the Party of Order to 4%. Maybe they can round up if they have more then 3% of the vote?
Nah, there's a 4% quorum, so they need at least 4% for a seat. The rest get rounded.

Wait, Alien Born, who said there probably is no puppetry going on, is not right?

I don't believe you meant to say that.
He meant he was right about the policies. I said he wasn't.

He was right about no puppet wanking, though I believe there is at least a little on all sides... I mean, this Ascelon kid who had no posts before this? Suspicious...

Nah, there's a 4% quorum, so they need at least 4% for a seat. The rest get rounded.

Then my latest seat distribution(730 votes cast):

CoTP-----2
DSP------5
MAOBR---0
C. Libs.---5
MRR------2
PoO------0
PoWW----3
RTP------1
UDCP-----3
UYP------3

One seat is totally up in the air. It could be awarded to MAOBR or almost anyone.

This is still going on???!!!


~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Not all people are altruistic. That is reality. So we need to make sure that those with means help those in need.In other words, you want to make sure that people are forced to be altruistic? Uh-uh. Doesn't work.

Also, people with little money should naturally pay less tax than those with much. You are merely pandering to the rich.That makes some sense. But not much. I mean, income tax? What's that? :D

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

In the spirit of random awesomeness, I've created:

http://ns.goobergunch.net/general

A forum for the use of the winners of the NS General Election. I'd make Ariddia co-Admin of the forum upon registration, and reskin the board tomorrow.

Because the General forum deserves better than just another InvisionFree board. (Plus I could probably write some kind of voting script based off of the Invision member accounts, like the one the Meritocracy used to have.)

Then my latest seat distribution(730 votes cast):

CoTP-----2
DSP------5
MAOBR---0
C. Libs.---5
MRR------2
PoO------0
PoWW----3
RTP------1
UDCP-----3
UYP------3

One seat is totally up in the air. It could be awarded to MAOBR or almost anyone.
It should probably be given to the CoT Party, since they are the closest to a new seat among the parties above quorum.

In other words, you want to make sure that people are forced to be altruistic? Uh-uh. Doesn't work.
Actually it does. It needs to happen. Otherwise the rich will just get richer and the poor poorer.

That makes some sense. But not much. I mean, income tax? What's that? :D

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe
:p

Australia has a pretty high tax rate. And you get taxed more the more you earn. However, we have one of the best welfare, health, and education systems in the WORLD. (Not too different from Canadia I believe.) You wonder why people want to move to Australia?

The way the Liberals work, private health insurance will cost at least $10000 a year. Socialists? We drop it down to $1000. I wonder which is better...

Actually it does. It needs to happen. Otherwise the rich will just get richer and the poor poorer. Forced altruism, or do you mean enforced equality at the lowest common level. (If it is higher than the lowest point, then it isn't equality is it?)


Australia has a pretty high tax rate. And you get taxed more the more you earn. However, we have one of the best welfare, health, and education systems in the WORLD. (Not too different from Canadia I believe.) You wonder why people want to move to Australia?
The same reason they want to move to Brazil. Beaches, Babes and Barbies.

The way the Liberals work, private health insurance will cost at least $10000 a year. Socialists? We drop it down to $1000. I wonder which is better...

Source, or are you just inventing figures?

The cost may be lower, but the quality will be lower as well.
Now, which is better?

Forced altruism, or do you mean enforced equality at the lowest common level. (If it is higher than the lowest point, then it isn't equality is it?)
Forced altruism, not forced equality. People who work more should get more. But there should be a safety net. Here's another one... it'd be hard to make education free. And even if we did, how do students support themselves? They need some sort of assistance if they can't earn enough money. Where should it come from? More from the rich than the poort.


The same reason they want to move to Brazil. Beaches, Babes and Barbies.
People want to move to Brazil? I think you'll find they just want to visit there. Like me! :D


Source, or are you just inventing figures?
America vs Australia.

Forced altruism, or do you mean enforced equality at the lowest common level. (If it is higher than the lowest point, then it isn't equality is it?)

You know if you all had just voted for the NS Meritocratic Represenative Republicas, you wouldn't even be having this argument. Let everyone have the same rights under a small federal government and let those who are willing to give of themselves vote and run for office. They will take care of you. They are altruistic. They've earned it.

Source, or are you just inventing figures?

The short answer is yes, the communist pawn is just pulling stuff out of the air.

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/9701/altruisticposter9ht.png

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/6232/anticommunistposter2gh.png

The cost may be lower, but the quality will be lower as well.
Now, which is better?
That is pretty stupid you know?

How will the quality be lower? The government will merely be subsidising it for those that need it. And I think you'll find that the health system in Australia is a tad better than in America. Thus disproving your point.

Base health insurance should be as cheap as possible. But of course, the more you can afford, the better you should receive. Poor people don't need health insurance on plastic surgery. Rich can have it if they want.

The short answer is yes, the communist pawn is just pulling stuff out of the air.

Suggestion? Stop flaming.

Oh, and if you want to be taken seriously, which noone does, try spelling REPRESENTATIVE right.

The way the Liberals work, private health insurance will cost at least $10000 a year. Socialists? We drop it down to $1000. I wonder which is better...
That's bullshit and you know it.

With NSCL, insurance would not be mandatory, therefore it couldn't reach $10,000 a year because the market wouldn't bear it. The ONLY reason insurance has gone through the roof in the US is because the idiots in government have decided to make it mandatory. Corporate welfare at its finest.

That's bullshit and you know it.

With NSCL, insurance would not be mandatory, therefore it couldn't reach $10,000 a year because the market wouldn't bear it. The ONLY reason insurance has gone through the roof in the US is because the idiots in government have decided to make it mandatory. Corporate welfare at its finest.
Yes, and where are you going to fund your public health insurance? Raping the poor I assume.

Australia also has a pretty good public health system as well, which everyone can have. This is in addition to the low private health costs.

Corporate welfare at its best? What do you think is going to happen under the Liberals?

Forced altruism, not forced equality. People who work more should get more. But there should be a safety net. Here's another one... it'd be hard to make education free. And even if we did, how do students support themselves? They need some sort of assistance if they can't earn enough money. Where should it come from? More from the rich than the poort.

Why can't they work for the time that they are not in class to support themselves, likre they do here. Work in the day, university in the evening. Support themselves, pay for their own education and come out at the end with a qualification and experience.

No, they can't do that, I mean they have to have time to go to the party rallies and discuss the significance of the red patch on the robin. Let us take the hard eqarned wealth of those that contribite to society and give it to those who do nothing for the others in their world.


People want to move to Brazil? I think you'll find they just want to visit there. Like me! :D
If you had been here you would want to move here. :D



America vs Australia.

Source, not countries. Where in the US does health insurance cost that, when in Australia was full health insurance provided by the state for that value. Evidence, not assertion.

Yes, and where are you going to fund your public health insurance? Raping the poor I assume.

-snip-

Corporate welfare at its best? What do you think is going to happen under the Liberals?
Y'know... you might want to actually READ our manifesto before LYING about our positions. NSCL is rabidly anti-Corporate Welfare. We don't have public healthcare insurance (unless I missed something in the manifesto) so there'd be no RAPING OF THE POOR, as you so maliciously put it.

Amazing, in a year and a half I've NEVER seen over 720 votes. NEVER!

Why can't they work for the time that they are not in class to support themselves, likre they do here. Work in the day, university in the evening. Support themselves, pay for their own education and come out at the end with a qualification and experience.

No, they can't do that, I mean they have to have time to go to the party rallies and discuss the significance of the red patch on the robin. Let us take the hard eqarned wealth of those that contribite to society and give it to those who do nothing for the others in their world.

A) Cost of living is greater here in Australia.
B) Why should students kill themselves for bettering society?
C) Supporting themselves is one thing, there is NO WAY 90% of students can earn enough to pay for their own education AND support themselves AND study full time.
D) Most university occurs in the day.

Now, which do you say is contributing more to society, those that educate themselves, or those that earn so much money so they can pay poor one-armed starving children to lick their arses clean for them? Oh wait, that doesn't cost much, does it?


If you had been here you would want to move here. :D
Visit Australia and THEN say that :p


Source, not countries. Where in the US does health insurance cost that, when in Australia was full health insurance provided by the state for that value. Evidence, not assertion.
Don't have time to provide sources. Australia isn't quite that good either - it would cost me $1500 a year for private health insurance, and that is only because I am becoming a teacher. So that is one half of the proof. I'd like to see what the minimum is for the US though, cos it is sure way more than that.

Y'know... you might want to actually READ our manifesto before LYING about our positions. NSCL is rabidly anti-Corporate Welfare. We don't have public healthcare insurance (unless I missed something in the manifesto) so there'd be no RAPING OF THE POOR, as you so maliciously put it.
Wow. Good point. The poor will just die.

I am sorry, but HOW THE HELL WILL THE POOR GET MEDICAL ASSISTANCE!?

Doctors will charge exorbitant amounts, because they are free. They don't even need to treat people without insurance, because they are free. And is there even going to be public hospitals? How will you pay for them? If there isn't, then the poor will die. If there is, then the poor are raped.

Please, choose one.

Never trust a Texan. I know, I dated one.

Never trust a Texan. I know, I dated one.

Hey! Some of us are good!!

*points to self*

Yes, and where are you going to fund your public health insurance? Raping the poor I assume.


Simple answer, there will be no mandatory health care. (i.e. no public health insurance) It will be up to the private sector.

Hey! Some of us are good!!

*points to self*
Yeah, I'm just kidding...

There's a girl in Dallas I'd love to date... her name here is Celeste ;)

Doctors will charge exorbitant amounts, because they are free. They don't even need to treat people without insurance, because they are free. And is there even going to be public hospitals? How will you pay for them? If there isn't, then the poor will die. If there is, then the poor are raped.
Wow. You really believe that rhetoric, don't you? :eek:

Doctors couldn't NOT treat someone. Remember the Hypocratic Oath? Also, doctors wouldn't be able to charge exorbitant ammounts because the market wouldn't bear it. You also seem to forget that their are altruistic, private hospitals all over the US. The vast majority of them are run by CHRISTIAN organizations.

Yeah, I'm just kidding...

There's a girl in Dallas I'd love to date... her name here is Celeste ;)

Dallas sucks... No, I'm not kidding.

And, no, I don't have a "Southern accent".

The vast majority of them are run by CHRISTIAN organizations.

Yeah, I'd really wanna go to one of those.

:rolleyes:

Simple answer, there will be no mandatory health care. (i.e. no public health insurance) It will be up to the private sector.
And how will the poor get medical assistance? Or pay for it?

A) Cost of living is greater here in Australia.
B) Why should students kill themselves for bettering society?
C) Supporting themselves is one thing, there is NO WAY 90% of students can earn enough to pay for their own education AND support themselves AND study full time.
D) Most university occurs in the day.
A) I wonder what caused that, government spending perhaps?
B) Altruism my man, altruism. What you were going to force on people you now argue they shouldn't have! lol.
C) Way yes. Or are prices so elevated their by the social costs of oversized government that this basic possibility of self improvement is prohibitively expensive?
D) Ask yourself why? University is a service that needs customers that pay. To be able to pay they have to work, to work in any reasonable job and numbers they have to have the daytime free, but the university course is fulltime during the day. STUPID isn't it. The outcome of socialist thinking.



Now, which do you say is contributing more to society, those that educate themselves, or those that earn so much money so they can pay poor one-armed starving children to lick their arses clean for them? Oh wait, that doesn't cost much, does it?
You just said that no one can educate themselves, they have to depend on state handouts funded by the people who do work. So I suggest that you call your one armed child back from the service that you have sent him to do as his altruistic duty, and put him into school at the expense of the countries welfare and tax payers. When he has finished he can go back to the service you so elegantly described as he will have absolutely no experience of anything else, unlike in an intelligent education system.


Visit Australia and THEN say that :p
It is something I intend to do. At least I speak the original of the language that you have so thoroughly corrupted. :eek:



Don't have time to provide sources. Australia isn't quite that good either - it would cost me $1500 a year for private health insurance, and that is only because I am becoming a teacher. So that is one half of the proof. I'd like to see what the minimum is for the US though, cos it is sure way more than that.If you can't back it up, withdraw the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

Wow. You really believe that rhetoric, don't you? :eek:

Doctors couldn't NOT treat someone. Remember the Hypocratic Oath? Also, doctors wouldn't be able to charge exorbitant ammounts because the market wouldn't bear it. You also seem to forget that their are altruistic, private hospitals all over the US. The vast majority of them are run by CHRISTIAN organizations.
I think the Hypocratic Oath is the one you took. The Doctors took the Hippocratic.

Doctors only have to treat those that are in immediate mortal danger.

The doctors can still charge more than poor people could ever pay.

And yes, what happens if you are not near one of those hospitals?
And also note that they ARE of poorer quality.

Doctors couldn't NOT treat someone. Remember the Hypocratic Oath?

So doctors can't do whatever they want, but everyone else can?

You know if you all had just voted for the NS Meritocratic Represenative Republicas, you wouldn't even be having this argument. Let everyone have the same rights under a small federal government and let those who are willing to give of themselves vote and run for office. They will take care of you. They are altruistic. They've earned it.

In a Meritocratic Representative Republican government, we would be better equipped to take care of poor people medicinally speaking. We would be able to give affordable healthcare via clinics through those skilled in medicine who wish to attain their suffrage. Because they would be working at very low operating cost, and also because we require active, needed service, we would be better equipped to give people help without creating the gigantic morass of greedy thieving bureaucrats that would otherwise be created with a senseless pouring in of taxpayer money in a self-interested department. This could also drive down the rates through competition as private clinics attempt to gain customers.

I think the Hypocratic Oath is the one you took. The Doctors took the Hippocratic.

Doctors only have to treat those that are in immediate mortal danger.

The doctors can still charge more than poor people could ever pay.

And yes, what happens if you are not near one of those hospitals?
And also note that they ARE of poorer quality.

Are of poorer quality than what. The state run hospitals in the UK? No. Than the private hospitals in Brazil? Probably.

How about comparing them to the health plan hospitals here. That even the working class can afford. Oh dear, the health plan ones are good, the state ones are not. How did that happen?

So doctors can't do whatever they want, but everyone else can?

The hippocratic oath is a voluntary thing. It is like swearing alleigance to the president/queen when you join the armed forces. No one makes you join, but if you want to then this is a must. Stop being silly huh.

A) I wonder what caused that, government spending perhaps?
B) Altruism my man, altruism. What you were going to force on people you now argue they shouldn't have! lol.
C) Way yes. Or are prices so elevated their by the social costs of oversized government that this basic possibility of self improvement is prohibitively expensive?
D) Ask yourself why? University is a service that needs customers that pay. To be able to pay they have to work, to work in any reasonable job and numbers they have to have the daytime free, but the university course is fulltime during the day. STUPID isn't it. The outcome of socialist thinking.

A) Still less than the US.
B) No, I'm saying that a) a lot don't have, and b) isn't really fair is it? You don't want a better society the way you are arguin
C) Answer me this: If the government does not subsidise education, how much do you think it will cost?
D) University is not a service. It is an education. Your government breeds stupid people. Ours breeds smart.


You just said that no one can educate themselves, they have to depend on state handouts funded by the people who do work. So I suggest that you call your one armed child back from the service that you have sent him to do as his altruistic duty, and put him into school at the expense of the countries welfare and tax payers. When he has finished he can go back to the service you so elegantly described as he will have absolutely no experience of anything else, unlike in an intelligent education system.
Well, if he has an education, he can actually find a better job. And perhaps get another arm.



It is something I intend to do. At least I speak the original of the language that you have so thoroughly corrupted. :eek:
At least I don't speak the abomination that is American.



If you can't back it up, withdraw the claim. The burden of proof is on you.
Disprove it or it stands.

The hippocratic oath is a voluntary thing. It is like swearing alleigance to the president/queen when you join the armed forces. No one makes you join, but if you want to then this is a must. Stop being silly huh.

But to be a doctor you have to take it? Still sounds like the government interfering to me.

Are of poorer quality than what. The state run hospitals in the UK? No. Than the private hospitals in Brazil? Probably.

How about comparing them to the health plan hospitals here. That even the working class can afford. Oh dear, the health plan ones are good, the state ones are not. How did that happen?
They are of poorer quality than the public hospitals in Australia.

You know, I don't know much about Brazil. But the government you are proposing is closer to the American plan than the Brazilian. And if you disagree then I'll just start spouting stats on the poor in Brazil.

But to be a doctor you have to take it? Still sounds like the government interfering to me.

Sounds more like the general consensus of doctors and education programs that train doctors interfering to me.

The hippocratic oath is a voluntary thing. It is like swearing alleigance to the president/queen when you join the armed forces. No one makes you join, but if you want to then this is a must. Stop being silly huh.
Therefore they don't need to treat dying people if they don't have insurance. Yay.

Sounds more like the general consensus of doctors and education programs that train doctors interfering to me.
No, more like morality interfering. Which is something you don't care about.

(LA caring about Morality? HAH!)

No, more like morality interfering. Which is something you don't care about.

(LA caring about Morality? HAH!)

My morals say that nobody should force altruism. You're the immoral one. HOW DO U LIEK IT?!

I wasn't even talking about morality, and neither was the poster whom I quoted.

And if the doctor takes the oath as a moral thing, why would he not treat someone? Obviously he's got "good moral character" if it's really morality interfering as you claim, otherwise he wouldn't take the oath and wouldn't be a doctor.

My morals say that nobody should force altruism. You're the immoral one. HOW DO U LIEK IT?!

I wasn't even talking about morality, and neither was the poster whom I quoted.
Wow. Its like my brain cells are being drawn from my head into a vacuum ;)

The Hippocratic Oath (read it some time) is about Morals. Good Morals to be exact. Altruism is also about Morals. Good Morals. I might be immoral in your books, but I don't think your Morals are Good Morals.

They are of poorer quality than the public hospitals in Australia.

You know, I don't know much about Brazil. But the government you are proposing is closer to the American plan than the Brazilian. And if you disagree then I'll just start spouting stats on the poor in Brazil.

The government we are proposing is actually nothing like the American corporate welfare state or the Brazilian Socialist Democracy. Try reading what is proposed and thinking about it for yourself instead of saying - "oh that is the USA, therefore it is bad", Well the USA government is bad, so we are not proposing that system OK.

Curiosity, if you don't know much about Brazil how are you going to spout stats about something you know nothing about?

think the Hypocratic Oath is the one you took. The Doctors took the Hippocratic.

Wow, you sure are a stickler for spelling aren't you?

Vote NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans. Freedom, small government, low taxes, what more could you ask for? Once more Suffrage is granted only to those who prove their altruism, thus guaranteeing that your leaders care about you and only repsonsable people are voting.

And just in case there is any confusion about the NSMRR's policies on the economy:

DSP :sniper:

:gundge:
RTP

UDC :mp5:

Wow. Its like my brain cells are being drawn from my head into a vacuum ;)

The Hippocratic Oath (read it some time) is about Morals. Good Morals to be exact. Altruism is also about Morals. Good Morals. I might be immoral in your books, but I don't think your Morals are Good Morals.

Into the vacuum of ENLIGHTENMENT

You're correct on both accounts of those involving "good morals". I am in fact rather altruistic myself - no money to donate, but I do shittons of community service. I don't have a problem with altruism and your Good Morals. I have a problem with you saying that everyone has to share those morals, because I don't think that the altruism that comes about through force is really based on good morals.

The government we are proposing is actually nothing like the American corporate welfare state or the Brazilian Socialist Democracy. Try reading what is proposed and thinking about it for yourself instead of saying - "oh that is the USA, therefore it is bad", Well the USA government is bad, so we are not proposing that system OK.

Curiosity, if you don't know much about Brazil how are you going to spout stats about something you know nothing about?
And if you read the manifesto, which I have, its not that different from the American system. Personally? I think the American system is better!

I don't know much about Brazillian education or health care. I know a lot about Brazillian children.

Wow, you sure are a stickler for spelling aren't you?

Vote NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans. Freedom, small government, low taxes, what more could you ask for? Once more Suffrage is granted only to those who prove their altruism, thus guaranteeing that your leaders care about you and only repsonsable people are voting.

And just in case there is any confusion about the NSMRR's policies on the economy:

DSP :sniper:

:gundge:
RTP

UDC :mp5:
Stickler for spelling? No, just basic education.

And I'm sure the smilies just make your case that much better.

Into the vacuum of ENLIGHTENMENT
LOL. Good call.

You're correct on both accounts of those involving "good morals". I am in fact rather altruistic myself - no money to donate, but I do shittons of community service. I don't have a problem with altruism and your Good Morals. I have a problem with you saying that everyone has to share those morals, because I don't think that the altruism that comes about through force is really based on good morals.
I'd like to not have to force everyone, but I'm a cynic, and think there are too many greedy and bad people in the world not to. Besides, really, the true altruists ideally wouldn't change at all under the system. But you are right, its not really based on good morals, or morals whatsoever. Its about being realistic in this screwed up world.

And if you read the manifesto, which I have, its not that different from the American system. Personally? I think the American system is better!

I don't know much about Brazillian education or health care. I know a lot about Brazillian children.

So children don't get education or healthcare in the Brazil run by PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores) do they? You know about them, but not about where they are born, how often they are vaccinated, when they start school, what they are taught, how much they or their parents pay for this (Nothing). No you know that there are some poor kids here, well there are in Australia, there are in China, there are in the USA, there are in Italy, there are in Sweden. There are poor people everywhere, get real.

Our manifesto is nowhere close to the USA system of big government with corporate subsidies, import tarrifs, union controls, enforced monopolies, government licensing controlling critical areas. We do not regulate how people think, how they pray, how they party, or where they go and who they talk to. There is no Patriot act restricting the freedom of the people. There is no censorship of 'alien' ideas.

You have either a very oor understanding of English, or a weird view of the US political and economic system

Therefore they don't need to treat dying people if they don't have insurance. Yay.

Severe logic failure is evidenced by this post. I recommend you are returned to your manufacturer for reprogramming :p

http://img88.echo.cx/img88/5585/dean7di.png


It's good to see our parties working together. C'mon the PoWW is tied with the UDCP, lets push them over the top! Just a few more votes.

Better Dead then Red!

http://s2.phpbbforfree.com/forums/?mforum=powwforum

Wow. Its like my brain cells are being drawn from my head into a vacuum ;)

The Hippocratic Oath (read it some time) is about Morals. Good Morals to be exact. Altruism is also about Morals. Good Morals. I might be immoral in your books, but I don't think your Morals are Good Morals.

The Hippocratic Oath
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

It is about a guarantee of a quality of service, trust if you will, that a patient has to have in a doctor, and about a debt of servitude that all doctors owe to their teachers. No moral values here at all. Just a standardised warranty and disclaimer. Or would you argue that the GNU public Licence is a moral promise?

So children don't get education or healthcare in the Brazil run by PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores) do they? You know about them, but not about where they are born, how often they are vaccinated, when they start school, what they are taught, how much they or their parents pay for this (Nothing). No you know that there are some poor kids here, well there are in Australia, there are in China, there are in the USA, there are in Italy, there are in Sweden. There are poor people everywhere, get real.

~sigh~

http://www.una-uk.org/Environment/brazilschildren.html

http://www.dreamscanbe.org/who.html

http://www.sdc.admin.ch/countrydoc.php?navID=678

Shall I go on?
It is nothing like this in Australia, Italy, Sweden, even the US. I'm not even sure it is this bad in China!

Our manifesto is nowhere close to the USA system of big government with corporate subsidies, import tarrifs, union controls, enforced monopolies, government licensing controlling critical areas. We do not regulate how people think, how they pray, how they party, or where they go and who they talk to. There is no Patriot act restricting the freedom of the people. There is no censorship of 'alien' ideas.

You have either a very oor understanding of English, or a weird view of the US political and economic system
No, but rich people can control the media, because there is noone to stop them. They can force people to work low wages, because there is noone to stop them. Money is power, and if the government doesn't stop them, then the money will rule. Ever read Jennifer Government?

The Hippocratic Oath


It is about a guarantee of a quality of service, trust if you will, that a patient has to have in a doctor, and about a debt of servitude that all doctors owe to their teachers. No moral values here at all. Just a standardised warranty and disclaimer. Or would you argue that the GNU public Licence is a moral promise?
Read it again dude. Its about altruism. And a lot about morals.

It is not worth responding to badly researched biased reports. Try something more credible. But on with the subject at hand here, not the side track or straw man:


No, but rich people can control the media, because there is noone to stop them. They can force people to work low wages, because there is noone to stop them. Money is power, and if the government doesn't stop them, then the money will rule. Ever read Jennifer Government?

The rich can only control the media with the support of ther government. That is the point you are missing. Where licenses are required to transmit radio or television then the rich control. There is however a new medium out there in the real world that is scarring the shit out of the media moguls, and they are lobbying governments like hell to regulate it. It is called the internet. Where are the media moguls here? Money is power, but freedom to speak, to think to act as one will is more powerful still.

There is a false presumption in your argument, that the media barons are self supporting. they are not, they are supported by politicians in return for supporting that politicial party. Fox ring a bell, or may be Rupert Murdoch, being an Aussie, you may have heard of. Political neutrality is not their game, because it would destroy them. Eliminate the government support and their empires collapse, they know it, the governments know it, and what is worst for them is that the people are beginning to find out about it.

No one is forced to work for low wages, start your own business if you don't like the pay. No red tape, no taxation, no regulations etc to stop you.

Read it again dude. Its about altruism. And a lot about morals.

Where? Quote the parts that are about morals.

You know what? If you can't understand what I write, or dismiss perfectly valid reports (have a look at the sources; if you dismiss them then you cannot possibly produce any valid reports yourself) then there is no point.

Brazil = SECOND GREATEST RICH-POOR DIVIDE IN THE WORLD

Disprove it. Otherwise it stands.

And I'm sure the smilies just make your case that much better.

They make my case better by about the same amount that your constantly shot down argmenta make yours. oh, and you do know that Hippocratese's (sp?) ideas are thousands of years old. Isn't that a bit too archaic for you socialist types? :p

http://img93.echo.cx/img93/9701/altruisticposter9ht.png

They make my case better by about the same amount that your constantly shot down argmenta make yours. oh, and you do know that Hippocratese's (sp?) ideas are thousands of years old. Isn't that a bit too archaic for you socialist types? :p

Curious, how old are you?

I'm betting about 12.

Because your comments are either a) wrong, b) silly, or c) illogical.

You know what? If you can't understand what I write, or dismiss perfectly valid reports (have a look at the sources; if you dismiss them then you cannot possibly produce any valid reports yourself) then there is no point.

Brazil = SECOND GREATEST RICH-POOR DIVIDE IN THE WORLD

Disprove it. Otherwise it stands.

So we have some very very rich people in a third world country giving us a gini index of 59.1. Not actually the second highest in the world, but close. Try looking at the Amnesty International reports for Brazil or the undp reports. We are not the best of the developing countries, but we rank 18th out of 128 developping countries in Index of Human Poverty source (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/pdf/hdr04_HDI.pdf) , Rich Poor divide is not meaningful with respect to poverty, only with respect to equality of outcome which is not a value I support. This is off topic anyway. The system we propose is not the socialist system in place in Brazil, nor is it the Authoritarian Right wing dictatorship that ruled here for a long time. So If you want to discuss this, I will do so, but not here, nor now.

I'm betting about 12.

wrong.

This ice cream I'm eating right now, brought to me by capitalism no less, is just making me a bit hyper. Now if you excuse me, its making me thirsty and I have to go drink some of the cleanest tap water in the world, also brought to me by a capitalism. Then I think I'll take my allergy medication, which, by the way, medical insurance provides me just fine with a very low co-pay.

So we have some very very rich people in a third world country giving us a gini index of 59.1. Not actually the second highest in the world, but close. Try looking at the Amnesty International reports for Brazil or the undp reports. We are not the best of the developing countries, but we rank 18th out of 128 developping countries in Index of Human Poverty source (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/pdf/hdr04_HDI.pdf) , Rich Poor divide is not meaningful with respect to poverty, only with respect to equality of outcome which is not a value I support. This is off topic anyway. The system we propose is not the socialist system in place in Brazil, nor is it the Authoritarian Right wing dictatorship that ruled here for a long time. So If you want to discuss this, I will do so, but not here, nor now.
That is fair enough, and I will leave it, but we were discussing comparisons between Brazil and other nations, namely Australia and America. The difference is Brazil is developing, whereas Australia and America are first world. You might like to notice that Australia and America are respectively the richest nations in the Southern and Northern hemispheres. The fact was also that your system does not fix the Rich-Poor divide which is an issue under Classic Liberals and not so much under Democratic Socialism. Since we were talking about our nations, it seemed relevant.

Anyway, I think that is enough debate for now. Let us now join forces in laughing at Undelia.

Anyway, I think that is enough debate for now. Let us now join forces in laughing at Undelia.

As I find you to be rather more comic, I prefer to laugh at you. There are several challenges unanswerd as of yet. I await some responses, or retractions.

Well actually I will await them looking at the inside of my eyelids as it jus went through 02:00 here. G'night.