NationStates Jolt Archive

That is absolutely not what I said. If you want to twist people's words, Sinuhue has started a nice thread specifically for that.

"Second, any drugs made legal would come with health education to ensure people act responsibly "

Do you not know the definition of the word ENSURE? You said that health education will ENSURE responsible use. So anyone who abuses drugs is uneducated by that logic. Because according to you, a proper education ENSURES people will act responsibly. Perhaps what you meant to say is that drugs made legal come with a health education that will encourage people to act responsibly. It is, in fact, impossible to ENSURE people will act responsibly as long as free will exists.

This is not a case of me twisting your words. This is either a case of you misspeaking (using one word when you intended to use another) and me pointing it out or you misusing a word by your ignorance of its meaning and me pointing it out. I won't speculate as to which it is as it serves no purpose. If you wish to avoid this in the future, avoid hyperbole. This is a common problem with politicians.

ENSURE - To make sure or certain; insure: Our precautions ensured our safety.

EDIT: I did say drug users in my earlier statement when I meant drug abusers. In that case, I misspoke.

that's for a reason, they suck more :p
:mad: :rolleyes:

that's for a reason, they suck more :p

Yeah, yeah; wait till we overtake you again; you'll come begging to us, Your Highness. :p

Points adressed specifically in our manifesto. Since you're agressively implying we wouldn't have thought of it, my answer will simply be: Read our manifesto.



So let us see.

Unpleasant jobs:
* For “undesirable” and unskilled jobs, a large-scale rota system would be instituted, functioning on a local level so that everyone is involved. This rota system would work on a short-term basis, with citizens being required only to do a particular job for a couple of weeks or so.
Oh, slavery. I thought that might be the case. Where is the freedom now?

International Trade:
Trade with any trading partners who are reluctant to barter would be based on the money already in the country, as well as efforts to ensure that the quantity and value of exports constantly supersede those of imports.
As most countries are not going to barter, and you know it. The moneyless society is a fake. The only cash available is in the hands of the government. A pure totalitarinism strategy.

And where do you deal with tourists in your Manifesto?

<Snip>

All right, my use of the word "ensure" was probably misleading. But you also drew a faulty assumption. We wouldn't be trying to prevent people from taking drugs, but simply making sure they're fully aware of the consequences.

I hope people are reading the manifestos! But you don't even seem to be aware that the COTP has got a manifesto.
here it is, because i doubt anyone is bothering to click and read it


HEALTH
HEALTH SERVICE
There shall be a National Health Service available to all, free of charge. In this, we recognise, protect and enshrine the right to health as an essential right of all human beings.

ABORTION
Abortion, in the first term exclusively, shall be legal and free for any girl under the age of 16, any woman whose health would be compromised if she went through with pregnancy, and any victim of rape. In all other instances, abortion shall be legal for all (in the first term), but shall not be free, and the operation must, in addition, be undergone in a private hospital

EUTHANASIA
Euthanasia shall be legal but strictly controlled, and all cases shall be assessed on an individual basis.


HEALTH-RELATED SOCIETY ISSUES
CANNABIS
Cannabis shall be legal, but only on prescription for persons whose health would benefit thereby.

SMOKING
Smoking shall be banned in all indoor public places, this to protect individuals from the health risks and discomfort incurred via ‘passive smoking’. Pubs may, however, apply for a licence whereby smoking will be tolerated in their establishment; there shall be a limited number of such establishments in proportion to the number of residents in the area.

PROSTITUTION
Prostitution shall be legal, but strictly controlled by the government, which will ensure the protection of prostitutes and their customers through the means of regular tests for Sexually-Transmitted Diseases.


EDUCATION
Free education shall be provided to all, up to and including such instances of further education as nursery school and university.


THE ECONOMY
There shall be measures instituted to protect the rights of workers, including a decent minimum wage, and measures to prevent abusive lay-offs for reasons purely of increased profit.


THE ENVIRONMENT
The following measures shall be instituted to ensure the preservation of the environment:
- bus lanes, and free public transport
- compulsory recycling
- additional taxation on industries that pollute, proportionally to the gravity of the pollution they're causing
- the phasing out of fossil fuel-based energy, in favour of cleaner energies, such as wind power and solar panels
- discouraging companies from wasteful packaging of goods, through additional taxation on packaging
- introducing re-usable plastic bags, and making customers pay for the excessive use of plastic bags

Right now it seems like the Democratic Socialist Party, the Revolutionary Trotskyist Party, the United Democratic Communist Party and the Cult of TInk Party? will have to form a coalition.

that's for a reason, they suck more :p

"Suck more," you mean the COT still sucks?

Would you actually care to formulate that as a reasoned argument in some way?

OK analogy is too complex for you. Fine.

You do not require people to work to have their needs met, and you pay for them to travel. People, being people like you and me, will surely take up this opportunity and take their dream holiday of slowly visiting all the places they want to see over the period of a year or two. It is state funded after all, so why not? Who would be left working in your state?

Re: The cult of Tink Party.
How can you have a party with that name and deny it is a personality cult party. Manifestos make sense if there is a political ideal behind the founding of the party. This is clearly not the case with COTP, just from its name.

Yes Tink, I agree with you, I do think the name should have been changed.

"Suck more," you mean the COT still sucks?
apparently so :(

but i don't think people even bother reading our manifesto, i think the name of the party is what makes it suck, if people read our policies they'd see what a fantabulous party we really are!

It is in that the majority here are to some degree politcally literate. This idea however is being challenged by the personality cult voting for Tink.

Read the Manifestos and decide on that basis, this is the least you can do.

So you are saying that over one hundred people have read all of the Manifestos in their entirety? Or even a majority of the people? Or even the majority of the manifestos? Have you?

I haven't read all of the manifestos in their entirety. Most of them had something so grievously wrong that I just ignored the rest of the document. Some I knew not to read because their members were vocal about what they stood for. For example, your party.

That said, if people believe in what your party stands for, I hope they vote for you. I suspect what will actually happen is that people will see who is most likely to win and vote between the leaders as usually happens. I also suspect that many of these votes will be ignorantly based on propogandized summaries of the purposes of the party, such as is the problem with presidential elections in the USA. People actually believe that Republicans advocate smaller government and Democrats are anti-"Big Business".

So let us see.

Unpleasant jobs:
Oh, slavery. I thought that might be the case. Where is the freedom now?


How exactly do you make that to be slavery? Is it not better, btw, than a capitalist system which forces some people to do those tasks all their life and for mere survival wages? Don't try to put things back to front; yours is the system which denies people the right to do what they wish.


International Trade:
As most countries are not going to barter, and you know it. The moneyless society is a fake. The only cash available is in the hands of the government. A pure totalitarinism strategy.

Rubbish. It is a moneyless society; money is used only outside society. You make the ridiculous assumption that people need money, and deserve to be able to hoard up as much as they can of it, but our society removes the need for it.


And where do you deal with tourists in your Manifesto?

We don't; sorry, that one slipped by me. It's a valid question. I've got a few ideas in mind, but none that I'm really happy with, so we'll have to discuss it within the party and get back to you.

Tinks

Taxation? How do you pay for the Health service, education etc?

I should go on a political party hunting safari...

*introduces terrorism!*

What say you, o parties of NS General of this?

How exactly do you make that to be slavery? Is it not better, btw, than a capitalist system which forces some people to do those tasks all their life and for mere survival wages? Don't try to put things back to front; yours is the system which denies people the right to do what they wish.
*claps*

Guns are an effective means of making people do things they don't want to. Money, too, is an effective way of exerting power over people, especially those who cannot meet their needs without it
altruists.org

slavery?



edit: 11.1%... sneaking up!

Oh, regarding the COTP, don't you think its success may be due to the fact that, out of ten parties, it is one of the only two moderate left-wing party, hmm? In any election, that's the kind of party you would expect to be in the top two or three.

if people read our policies they'd see what a fantabulous party we really are!

Well still not my cuppa tea.

Far too statist and authoritarian for my liking.

Oh, regarding the COTP

Umm, given that the party is called "cult" and given that it's based on FairyTink herself (who is lovely) but still, wouldn't that sort of be a dictatorship? What Tink wants, Tink gets? See where I'm going... I am sorry, but I couldn't vote for any party that has "cult" in it's name.

w00t for the Classic Liberals. 18.82%

How exactly do you make that to be slavery? Is it not better, btw, than a capitalist system which forces some people to do those tasks all their life and for mere survival wages? Don't try to put things back to front; yours is the system which denies people the right to do what they wish.
Yopu are the ones requiring people to do this menial labour, not us. It is an option for you in our society if you can not do anything else. In your society, even if you are the most brilliant scientist you have to take time off from solving the worlds problems to clean public toilets. Who is putting things back to front? The communists by claiming that compulsion is freedom.



Rubbish. It is a moneyless society; money is used only outside society. You make the ridiculous assumption that people need money, and deserve to be able to hoard up as much as they can of it, but our society removes the need for it.
Your manifesto explicitly states "based on the money already in the country" yet you insist it is a moneyless society. Black is white as well I suppose (yes I know it is, but that is not the point). I made no assumption about people or money in my post, so stop building straw men. I simp´ly argued that in your society money will exist, as admitted in the fine print of your manifesto, but this will be under the total control of the government except for when people travel abroad, when it will be issued to them by the government. This is a totalitarian money supply policy. Where is anything abvout hoarding bits of paper?



We don't; sorry, that one slipped by me. It's a valid question. I've got a few ideas in mind, but none that I'm really happy with, so we'll have to discuss it within the party and get back to you.

A suggestion for you: use money. It was invented for lots of reasons. One of these reason being that it provides freedom of movement. Without it, you can not travel as you have no credit or reputation away from your home.

Tinks

Taxation? How do you pay for the Health service, education etc?
people will be taxed based on their ability to pay, higher taxes for high earners because they can afford it

Well still not my cuppa tea.

Far too statist and authoritarian for my liking.
and that's fine, I'm glad you actually read it

W00t! 6 votes and maybe 1 seat! Excellant!

I should go on a political party hunting safari...

*introduces terrorism!*

What say you, o parties of NS General of this?

We offer you the possibility of turning your illegal operation into a decent fair and profitable private security force. If you choose not to, then those private security forces already existing will remove you as you threaten their clients.

Have a nice day day now. You are free to choose your destiny.

Umm, given that the party is called "cult" and given that it's based on FairyTink herself (who is lovely) but still, wouldn't that sort of be a dictatorship? What Tink wants, Tink gets? See where I'm going... I am sorry, but I couldn't vote for any party that has "cult" in it's name.
what Tink wants, Tink gets whoever's in charge :p


and it isn't actually based on me, well the policies aren't anyway, and really, i'm not into that whole dictatorship thing, I don't think i could handle being in charge all by myself, but i can totally understand why you won't vote for us, and i'll say it again, i knew the name was a bad idea

I should go on a political party hunting safari...

*introduces terrorism!*

What say you, o parties of NS General of this?

We would encopurage terrorism against the evil, lower life form known as the surfacer. They are to be destroyed at all cost, and by any means at our disposal. However, terrorism against other burrowing creatures would not be allowed, and random rodents will come and eat the terrorists.

people will be taxed based on their ability to pay, higher taxes for high earners because they can afford it

So basically you take from those who work and are successful and give to those who are not. Is that the idea?

Rich does not equal sucessful or hardworking, dumbass.

Yopu are the ones requiring people to do this menial labour, not us. It is an option for you in our society if you can not do anything else. In your society, even if you are the most brilliant scientist you have to take time off from solving the worlds problems to clean public toilets. Who is putting things back to front? The communists by claiming that compulsion is freedom.
people are required to do menial jobs just to survive in capitalism. here, people are required to contribute their bit to society by doing their share of menial jobs - and only a couple of days a fortnight anyway - and they can survive all the same, no-matter what. i would argue that this is more freedom for more people - certainly the non-priviliged proletariat.
this is more fair and equal than capitalism where some people must slog away at the undesirable jobs for their entire career, while others have a career on the gravy train. and no i don't beleve this is fair or justly allowed, as people simply have different starting points in life under capitalism. under the UDCP there is equality.

and yes it is the duty of 'the most brilliant scientist' to contribute thier bit to society in this way. although, as the manifesto says, some groups will be excluded from the rota (decided on a local level) if they are in high demand




Your manifesto explicitly states "based on the money already in the country" yet you insist it is a moneyless society. Black is white as well I suppose (yes I know it is, but that is not the point). I made no assumption about people or money in my post, so stop building straw men. I simp´ly argued that in your society money will exist, as admitted in the fine print of your manifesto, but this will be under the total control of the government except for when people travel abroad, when it will be issued to them by the government. This is a totalitarian money supply policy. Where is anything abvout hoarding bits of paper?

A suggestion for you: use money. It was invented for lots of reasons. One of these reason being that it provides freedom of movement. Without it, you can not travel as you have no credit or reputation away from your home.
first of all we recognise this is an imperfect system - a moneyless society fitting into a world of societies using money is evidently going to have problems (as is a communist society not existing in a communist world), but we believe those problems to be far outweighed by the advantages of such a system. so people will have difficulties travelling? this is quite a specific problem and i'm sure there are ways around it that can be worked out.

It's almost a tie between the NSCL and the DSP, but I still enjoy BTO.

So basically you take from those who work and are successful and give to those who are not. Is that the idea?
yes, people who are successful will still have more money than those who are less successful, i'm not saying tax high earners to the point where everyone has the same amount of money, etc., but it would be unfair to take a certain percentage of money off everyone leaving a lower class family with hardly enough money to live on and feed their families with and an upper class family with money coming out of their ears, some people can afford more than others so they should contribute a bit more, that's just the way things work

Alright, as the founder of the NS Classic Liberals I would like to address the attacks by some of our socialist brethren here.

Any voters here whose primary source of income has been a minimum wage job where you worked merciless overtime with a tyrannical boss, I understand if you want to vote for the Communists, after all, if you are suffering why shouldn't everyone else?

But if you are in one of the 50% of American families who own some corporate stock, if you or your parents are one of the vast and growing number of people who will retire early because of hard work and wise investments, or if you just simply want a chance to take your hard work and turn it into something you could someday give to your kids, vote for us.

Remember that Classic Liberals do not support a tyrannical corporatism, we support a system that affords the employees all the rights of their employers. The communist solution is not to free you from your bosses, it is to assign a new boss, government. In the past it has been shown that when government becomes your boss, you don't get fired from your job, you get killed.

Don't sacrifice your freedom, vote NS Classic Liberals.

Just popping in to voice my support for the UDCP. Arridia, you're doing great with the replies. Sorry I've been rather uninvolved recently.

Vote for the party that offers true democracy and true equality. Vote for the party that values everyone and their work, encouraging individual talents. Vote for the party that protects you against exploitation and frees you from a capitalistic trap, where the poor are never able to reach their full potential. Vote for the party that cares about the whole population and will offer a decent standard of living with healthcare and education for all. Vote for the party that gives you what you need. Vote for a true community of people, working together and helping each other. Vote for the UDCP.

Everyone should vote for the NS Meritocratic Representative Republicans because we believe in the greatness of hard work, altruism, liberty. We believe that mankind can achieve great feats for the bettering of others, and in so better themselves. We believe strongly in the principles of self-government and belive that groups of people, so long as they do not violate certain inalienable rights, should be able to shape their society as they believe is best for their fellows.

We also believe that rights are not free, but rather earned, if not by an individual then by the sacrifice, toil and blood of other patriots, the Servicepeople, who put others above themselves. These Servicepeople will have spent two years of their lives helping others, not for their own money, prestige, or great security but rather for the betterment of their fellow man. We believe this is the noblest aspiration of mankind and a paragon of good and thus we recognize that these altruists have shown the ability to be able to guide their fellow man. They will have earned the right of suffrage.

In our world, there would be no greedy government bureaucrats sucking away the dignity and wealth of every man just to line their own pockets. Nor would there be a deceitful political machine ran by those who have never lifted a finger to help others and are powered by equally corrupt self-interested buffoons. Instead, the altruists, those who sacrifice for the good of others, would be entrusted with preserving the freedoms and rights of all others, a worthy task placed upon worthy shoulders.

I implore you, if you believe in hard work, service, and freedom, vote for the Meritocratic Representative Republicans.

I leave for half an hour and we fall two votes behind the PWW. Typical.
I think people need some good ol' fashioned threatening propaganda

http://img223.echo.cx/img223/1928/meagain22zl.jpg

http://img203.echo.cx/img203/4021/dhomme8nw.jpg

General question - Is it possible for individuals to change their vote? I tried to punch the whole for one part but it didn't line up properly and I think my vote went for another party that I don't support. Plus, I worry that I have a hanging chad.

Is that all you would offer a terrorist? What if he seeks something other than monetary payment or political agenda? What if he deems all political parties to be evil and thusly must be destroyed?

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal2.jpg

http://img203.echo.cx/img203/4021/dhomme8nw.jpg

Indeed! DHomme (http://img158.echo.cx/my.php?image=dhommecotp6yn.png) says, "Vote for TInk!" :D

General question - Is it possible for individuals to change their vote? I tried to punch the whole for one part but it didn't line up properly and I think my vote went for another party that I don't support. Plus, I worry that I have a hanging chad.

Sorry, no. The fora are set up to make it impossible.

http://img203.echo.cx/img203/4021/dhomme8nw.jpg

I hate you

I hate you
no you don't

Sorry, no. The fora are set up to make it impossible.

WHAT? MY VOTE MUST BE COUNTED!! EVERY VOTE SHOULD COUNT!! I WON'T STAND FOR THIS!! NOT WITHOUT WRITING A SCATHING REPLY IN ALL CAPS AND LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!

Just popping in to voice my support for the UDCP. Arridia, you're doing great with the replies. Sorry I've been rather uninvolved recently.

Vote for the party that offers true democracy and true equality. Vote for the party that values everyone and their work, encouraging individual talents. Vote for the party that protects you against exploitation and frees you from a capitalistic trap, where the poor are never able to reach their full potential. Vote for the party that cares about the whole population and will offer a decent standard of living with healthcare and education for all. Vote for the party that gives you what you need. Vote for a true community of people, working together and helping each other. Vote for the UDCP.

Thanks, Glitz, and nicely done. ;)

The capitalists seem to think repeating the same lies over and over about their opponents, playing on people's fears and preconceptions, will somehow allow them to win. Our answer is simply: Find out the truth for yourselves. Read our manifesto.

WHAT? MY VOTE MUST BE COUNTED!! EVERY VOTE SHOULD COUNT!! I WON'T STAND FOR THIS!! NOT WITHOUT WRITING A SCATHING REPLY IN ALL CAPS AND LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!

Go and shout exclamation points at the mods. ;)

More seriously, I'm sorry, but I didn't design the fora.

Thanks, Glitz, and nicely done. ;)

The capitalists seem to think repeating the same lies over and over about their opponents, playing on people's fears and preconceptions, will somehow allow them to win. Our answer is simply: Find out the truth for yourselves. Read our manifesto.
As if your rhetoric is vastly superior.

http://img69.echo.cx/img69/9509/slavery3xw.jpg

As if your rhetoric is vastly superior.

Rhetoric? I'll let you deal in rhetoric, if you want to. We simply ask people to look at the facts of our policies and proposals, rather than listen to those endlessly railing at state-socialist regimes which have nothing to do with us in the first place - in other words, people who are deliberately trying to mislead voters (deliberately, because we'd already addressed the points they've raised).

Go and shout exclamation points at the mods. ;)

More seriously, I'm sorry, but I didn't design the fora.

Oh, I was just kidding anyway. It does however suck that you can't change your vote. The good news is that it makes it impossible to FIX an election.

Rhetoric? I'll let you deal in rhetoric, if you want to. We simply ask people to look at the facts of our policies and proposals, rather than listen to those endlessly railing at state-socialist regimes which have nothing to do with us in the first place - in other words, people who are deliberately trying to mislead voters (deliberately, because we'd already addressed the points they've raised).
Oh come on admit it. Everything in this thread is rhetoric, it's an election. In order to truly think independently you should be an independent.

http://img69.echo.cx/img69/9509/slavery3xw.jpg
That's a clever, but unfair attack. Classic Liberals aren't for slavery because it limits another individuals ability to control his or her life. It isn't a voluntary contract.

UP YOURS, DAMMIT! :upyours:

no you don't

I know I don't. :fluffle:

I can't believe a party called the Cult of Tink is doing so well. You are no longer allowed to complain about being unpopular (at least among people who nothing better to do than vote for immaginary leadership on a forum)

UP YOURS, DAMMIT! :upyours:
fab campaigning there Melkor! *thumbs up*

That's a clever, but unfair attack. Classic Liberals aren't for slavery because it limits another individuals ability to control his or her life. It isn't a voluntary contract.
How is working for any corporation a voluntary contract? A lot of people work because there is little/no other work to be found or they aren't skilled enough to rise above their post. Some people are held to contracts which means they aren't allowed to leave companies for quite some time. Is that not a form of slavery?

I know I don't. :fluffle:

I can't believe a party called the Cult of Tink is doing so well. You are no longer allowed to complain about being unpopular (at least among people who nothing better to do than vote for immaginary leadership on a forum)
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: it's cause my party rocks! and....


http://img101.echo.cx/img101/7052/fonz0we.jpg

I voted Whatever Works but I'm stil going to worship tink.

fab campaigning there Melkor! *thumbs up*

Well, it actually seems to be working... He's got 8.25% of the vote, which, so far, gives him two seats. And he went off with a bang this morning; he was in second place for a long while.

You should fluffle him. That would embarass him in front of his voters. :D

Come on, folks. We all know I'm the only honest one here! Vote for me! :upyours:

http://img240.echo.cx/img240/2406/marxfonz2to.jpg

Well, it actually seems to be working... He's got 8.25% of the vote, which, so far, gives him two seats. And he went off with a bang this morning; he was in second place for a long while.

You should fluffle him. That would embarass him in front of his voters. :D

Actually, I was tied for first when I went to bed; then all the damn commies and TInk occultists showed up! Curses!

I demand a recount!

Well, it actually seems to be working... He's got 8.25% of the vote, which, so far, gives him two seats. And he went off with a bang this morning; he was in second place for a long while.

You should fluffle him. That would embarass him in front of his voters. :D
he also might tell me off for smiley spam......oh well it's worth a try


:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: <------for teh sexy Melkor!

http://www.english-zone.com/funstuff/ratattack.jpg
Save yourself from this fate!

Vote MOBRA

And you will be spared!

I voted Whatever Works but I'm stil going to worship tink.
meh, thanks anyway :fluffle: :fluffle:

Woah. Didn't see that coming! :eek:

http://img69.echo.cx/img69/9509/slavery3xw.jpg

Sorry, but I don't think any of the capitalist-leaning parties have endorsed slavery. They've all stated that in some way they support life, liberty, and property, none of which a slave has. Also, this is a questionable use of politicking that involves an emotional reaction rather than rationality.

Woah. Didn't see that coming! :eek:
didn't see what coming?

:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: it's cause my party rocks! and....


http://img101.echo.cx/img101/7052/fonz0we.jpg

I actually don't agree with you on the workers thing, but I will continue to worship you from afar and in private *winks*

didn't see what coming?

All that kissy-huggy stuff. I'm supposed to be hated for my in-your-face interface!

All that kissy-huggy stuff. I'm supposed to be hated for my in-your-face interface!
well it's your own fault for being such a cutey!
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Sorry, but I don't think any of the capitalist-leaning parties have endorsed slavery. They've all stated that in some way they support life, liberty, and property, none of which a slave has. Also, this is a questionable use of politicking that involves an emotional reaction rather than rationality.

They havent openly endorsed slavery but what do you honestly expect to happen if you take down all regulations in the private sector? I know it's emotional but emotionally and rationally capitalism is illogical. Why, just look at the newest poster

http://img170.echo.cx/img170/5286/capw4eh.jpg

How is working for any corporation a voluntary contract? A lot of people work because there is little/no other work to be found or they aren't skilled enough to rise above their post. Some people are held to contracts which means they aren't allowed to leave companies for quite some time. Is that not a form of slavery?
No, they had a choice and they chose to work. Thus it was voluntary, that is not the same as kidnapping people and making them slaves.

He's joining MOBRA...
http://www.onepug.com/ftp/images/stuckpug.jpg

...How about you?

well it's your own fault for being such a cutey!
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Gah! You don't know that! :eek:

No, they had a choice and they chose to work. Thus it was voluntary, that is not the same as kidnapping people and making them slaves.
I didn't say it was the same but there are similarities. If circumstances change for the individual within the corporation but they aren't allowed because they signed a contract when they knew little about who they working for, then they are being kept there against their will. That is the equivalent of slavery

Gah! You don't know that! :eek:
oh but sweetheart, i do! ;) :fluffle:

I didn't say it was the same but there are similarities. If circumstances change for the individual within the corporation but they aren't allowed because they signed a contract when they knew little about who they working for, then they are being kept there against their will. That is the equivalent of slavery
Are you talking about if the terms of the contract change? If you are then that is unacceptable. The individual did not sign the changes, he signed the original and therefore should have no obligation to it. That is a time where the courts should come in.

oh but sweetheart, i do! ;) :fluffle:
Ah, that's fine. If my looks don't do the trick I've always got my personality to drive 'em off.

Refused Party program.

Ah, that's fine. If my looks don't do the trick I've always got my personality to drive 'em off.
but you're so lovely

You may think this is Tink
http://www.phil-sears.com/Folder%202/tink.jpg
Sweet, gentle, beautiful...

But this is the real Tink!!!!!
http://www.jamesryman.com/fantasy/gallery/Dark%20Sun%20Witch.jpg

She plots to enslave you all as her cult members and as her army! she has already done it to so many!!!!

Vote MOBRA!

The only party that will save you alll from the the twin evils of surfacism and Tink!

Referring to a lack of regulation as slavery is quite ironic, no? "We're going to enslave you by letting you do what you want"...

but you're so lovely
Yeah, I get that a lot. Usually this comes just before I ask someone out and they say "no."

But I digress. Vote Up Yours! today! I'm the only honest one in the field, I promise you that!

http://www.english-zone.com/funstuff/ratattack.jpg
Save yourself from this fate!

Vote MOBRA

And you will be spared!
awesome :p


VOTE UDCP! vote for freedom!


and vote for tink too ;)

awesome :p


VOTE UDCP! vote for freedom!


and vote for tink too ;)

"Freedom" my ass.

Are you talking about if the terms of the contract change? If you are then that is unacceptable. The individual did not sign the changes, he signed the original and therefore should have no obligation to it. That is a time where the courts should come in.
No- if the conditions that surround him/her change due to personal relationships with other employees or the employer life could really become hell for somebody trapped in such a place

awesome :p


VOTE UDCP! vote for freedom!


and vote for tink too ;)

Glad you liked it ;)

But I digress. Vote Up Yours! today! I'm the only honest one in the field, I promise you that!

Empty, politicians' promises. I don't believe you. :p

Referring to a lack of regulation as slavery is quite ironic, no? "We're going to enslave you by letting you do what you want"...
A lack of corporate regulation could quite easily lead to slavery as individual companies go unchecked and are ultimately unaccountable for their actions

They havent openly endorsed slavery but what do you honestly expect to happen if you take down all regulations in the private sector? I know it's emotional but emotionally and rationally capitalism is illogical. Why, just look at the newest poster

http://img170.echo.cx/img170/5286/capw4eh.jpg

See, now it's even MORE based on emotion rather than logic. I could say that communism is just as much idealistic dreaming and angst as much as you could say that capitalism is irrational. The best way to get your party's ideas across would not be stirring up the emotions and creating a firestorm of anger and resentment but rather by creating logical discussion and debate that leads to it and appealing to people's better sides, not claiming that people like slavery and 'suck'. The stated capitalist do not openly endorse slavery nor do they privately endorse it because the running parties believe in life, liberty, and property, which go against slavery. None of us have ever said that we wish to completely abolish all regulations in private-sector but rather to create an atmosphere of ingenuity and competition that helps the most important rights.

Please do not make things up in order to attack people.

Yeah, I get that a lot. Usually this comes just before I ask someone out and they say "no."

But I digress. Vote Up Yours! today! I'm the only honest one in the field, I promise you that!
well they're obviously just threatened by your sparkling personality, dazzling wit and stunning good looks ;)


VOTE COTP!

My vote is cast. UP YOURS!

VOTE UDCP! vote for freedom from choice and individuality!

Fixed it for you.

A vote for the UDCP may be the last personal decision you ever make.

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal3.jpg

Referring to a lack of regulation as slavery is quite ironic, no? "We're going to enslave you by letting you do what you want"...

Well said sir.

Better dead than RED!!!!!!!!!

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/reflections/images/ref0002s.jpg

Vote MOBRA

We are nothing like those commy scum!

well they're obviously just threatened by your sparkling personality, dazzling wit and stunning good looks ;)


VOTE COTP!

Flattery will get you nowhere!

See, now it's even MORE based on emotion rather than logic. I could say that communism is just as much idealistic dreaming and angst as much as you could say that capitalism is irrational. The best way to get your party's ideas across would not be stirring up the emotions and creating a firestorm of anger and resentment but rather by creating logical discussion and debate that leads to it and appealing to people's better sides, not claiming that people like slavery and 'suck'. The stated capitalist do not openly endorse slavery nor do they privately endorse it because the running parties believe in life, liberty, and property, which go against slavery. None of us have ever said that we wish to completely abolish all regulations in private-sector but rather to create an atmosphere of ingenuity and competition that helps the most important rights.

Please do not make things up in order to attack people.
You really dont get jokes do you? Oh well.
http://img228.echo.cx/img228/9011/friedfuck9xp.jpg

A lack of corporate regulation could quite easily lead to slavery as individual companies go unchecked and are ultimately unaccountable for their actions

A free society and market will maintain accountability. People do not need socialists to tell them what is right or wrong.

Decide for Yourself - NS Classic Liberals

A vote for the UDCP may be the last personal decision you ever make.

It would be nice if you stopped saying things which you know to be blatantly untrue. Appealing to voters' fears and prejudice is hardly constructive, or honourable. ;)

Flattery will get you nowhere!
I'm not trying to flatter you, I'm just telling the truth *flutters eyelashes* :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

I'm not trying to flatter you, I'm just telling the truth *flutters eyelashes* :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

don't trust this surfacer! She's just trying to enslave you in her cult!!!! Stay away!!! It's a trap!

This is thing is more popular then RL elections.

It would be nice if you stopped saying things which you know to be blatantly untrue. Appealing to voters' fears and prejudice is hardly constructive, or honourable. ;)
PSST... you might want to take Dhomme aside and have the same talk with him IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE OUTED AS A BLATANT HYPOCRITE.

It would be nice if you stopped saying things which you know to be blatantly untrue. Appealing to voters' fears and prejudice is hardly constructive, or honourable. ;)

What did he say that was blatently untrue? Go read your own manifesto, I read it, I challenged some things, and you still claim that making people who have the ability to do so much more do menial jobs one day in seven is giving them freedom. There goes the choice.

Vote for any socialist or leftist group only at the risk of losing your freedom.

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal3.jpg

Now that is a nicely designed banner, which expresses your policy honestly. Of course, I disagree with the implication (i.e., lack of social responsability), but at least you're being honest and not flinging baseless attacks at your opponents. :)

It would be nice if you stopped saying things which you know to be blatantly untrue. Appealing to voters' fears and prejudice is hardly constructive, or honourable. ;)

Hey, I stand by everything I say.




At least until the election's over

I'm not trying to flatter you, I'm just telling the truth *flutters eyelashes* :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:
And you're also running against me! You're undermining my ability to RULE WITH AN IRON FIST!

I sense a sinister double standard!

PSST... you might want to take Dhomme aside and have the same talk with him IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE OUTED AS A BLATANT HYPOCRITE.

DHomme has got nothing to do with me! He's not a member of the UDCP; he's from the RTP! Get your facts straight. Apology accepted in advance.

You really dont get jokes do you? Oh well.
http://img228.echo.cx/img228/9011/friedfuck9xp.jpg

Well, yes, of course I find it funny :p . But it's still not constructive.

And you're also running against me! You're undermining my ability to RULE WITH AN IRON FIST!

I sense a sinister double standard!
I was just trying to be nice........


*wanders away to a lonely corner of the thread* :( Melkor doesn't like me :(

And you're also running against me! You're undermining my ability to RULE WITH AN IRON FIST!

I sense a sinister double standard!

See one of my earlier posts. I suggested she should fluffle you to embarass you in front of voters. :D

Of course, I disagree with the implication (i.e., lack of social responsability)

I will defend our platform, now, instead of flinging baseless attacks.

As I have been told by a socialist or two, "no man is an island." This means that any one person's actions will have social implications. However, due to our policy of freedom of action, society is free to react to another's actions as well.

If one person harm's society, he should expect society to harm him back, as long as it is lawful.

Now that is a nicely designed banner, which expresses your policy honestly. Of course, I disagree with the implication (i.e., lack of social responsability),
That's where choice comes in... some in our society will CHOOSE to be socially responsible...some will not. It's all about the CHOICE.

We NS Classic Liberals do not FORCE social conscience down anyone's throats...unlike some other *ahem* parties.

I was just trying to be nice........


*wanders away to a lonely corner of the thread* :( Melkor doesn't like me :(

Don't feel too bad, I don't like most people. ;) Except myself of course. God damn, I own :D

Just had to vote for those classic liberals :D

Don't feel too bad, I don't like most people. ;) Except myself of course. God damn, I own :D
*sobs*


(you need to spend less time with Myrthy, you're starting to sound a bit like him :eek: )


*sobs some more*


:( :( :( :( :( :(

Just had to vote for those classic liberals :D

Thank you :D

DHomme has got nothing to do with me! He's not a member of the UDCP; he's from the RTP! Get your facts straight. Apology accepted in advance.
I CHOOSE not to apologize...because you're all Communists anyway.

:p

DHomme has got nothing to do with me! He's not a member of the UDCP; he's from the RTP! Get your facts straight. Apology accepted in advance.

When DHomme insinuated that we endorse slavery by using a picture of a slave with our party's name above it, you said nothing.

When I made a comment that your party will eliminate personal freedom of choice, you came down on me.

DHomme is a communist and you said nothing, I am a capitalist and you accused me of blatantly lying. You have no apology forthcoming.

I will defend our platform, now, instead of flinging baseless attacks.


*nods* Thank you.


As I have been told by a socialist or two, "no man is an island." This means that any one person's actions will have social implications. However, due to our policy of freedom of action, society is free to react to another's actions as well.

If one person harm's society, he should expect society to harm him back, as long as it is lawful.

Well then we simply have a difference of opinion. The UDCP doesn't feel that encouraging a free-market economy and the drive for profit is compatible with protecting people from the worst injustices and deprivations such a system creates.

Well, yes, of course I find it funny :p . But it's still not constructive.
how about this-
http://img141.echo.cx/img141/4038/capitalcrime4ge.jpg

When DHomme insinuated that we endorse slavery by using a picture of a slave with our party's name above it, you said nothing.

When I made a comment that your party will eliminate personal freedom of choice, you came down on me.

DHomme is a communist and you said nothing, I am a capitalist and you accused me of blatantly lying. You have no apology forthcoming.
Your parties name wasnt on it now was it? Do you wanna not lie about us

That's where choice comes in... some in our society will CHOOSE to be socially responsible...some will not. It's all about the CHOICE.

We NS Classic Liberals do not FORCE social conscience down anyone's throats...unlike some other *ahem* parties.

Indeed, that's a fundamental difference between our two parties. You're entitled to your view on the matter; the UDCP feels that social responsability should be a priority. We don't aim at forcing it down people's throats, but rather at altering the system upon which society is founded so as to make social responsability compatible with freedom, creativity and individuality.

and that's fine, I'm glad you actually read it

Meh, not planning on voting anyway

I CHOOSE not to apologize...because you're all Communists anyway.

:p

Well, that much is true. ;)

Your parties name wasnt on it now was it? Do you wanna not lie about us

I assure you that it wasn't a lie, I was just wrong. I apologize.

Thank you :D
No problem. Unlike socialists and communists, i believe every human has a right to make choices about what they do both personally and economically

In a communist world, i would not be able to buy what i want when i want, i will be told what i need. NO THANK YOU.

The way to help the poor is not to end capitalism, and squeeze the rich until they burst. It is to use capitalism to help poverty, by enforcing labour contracts, setting minimum working conditions, health and safety regulations and a progressive tax system (although not too progressive).

Welfare should be enough to keep people housed and fed. Training programmes should be implemented and bad companies that are inefficient (aka ROVER) should be allowed to go out of business, those workers can find jobs elsewhere.

An economy that is free but regulated enough to ensure fair play will be flexible enough to help everyone and create jobs and wealth.

Thanks for listening.

I didn't read this whole thread, but is there a thread or link that describes each party's ideals? All in one thread?

If not, it would be a good idea and an easy way to compare and contrast. :)

I assure you that it wasn't a lie, I was just wrong. I apologize.
accepted

Vittos Ordination - You have a TG

*sobs*


(you need to spend less time with Myrthy, you're starting to sound a bit like him :eek: )


*sobs some more*


:( :( :( :( :( :(
Actually, Myrth and I don't care much for each other...

Holy hell Tink's goverment plan is awsome.. Abortion is legal, free education, free health.. The only problem is that shes the true ruler and queen.. But that could be easily fixed :)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/PureMetal/udcp2.jpg

the message is equality in case you couldn't tell


just checking... do these come out as images or links to imageshack pages?
(i've lost my Dreamweaver cd :mad: )

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/PureMetal/udcp2.jpg

the message is equality in case you couldn't tell


just checking... do these come out as images or links to imageshack pages?
(i've lost my Dreamweaver cd :mad: )

Yes.

Yes.

Cry Me a River.

Yes.

Holy hell Tink's goverment plan is awsome.. Abortion is legal, free education, free health.. The only problem is that shes the true ruler and queen.. But that could be easily fixed :)
well of course it's awesome, it's mine :cool:

i don't think it would be as easy as you think, i have a whole cult and an army that you'd have to deal with :p

Holy hell Tink's goverment plan is awsome.. Abortion is legal, free education, free health.. The only problem is that shes the true ruler and queen.. But that could be easily fixed :)

By free, you mean paid for by the tax payer, of course. Either that or remember that anything free is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Holy hell Tink's goverment plan is awsome.. Abortion is legal, free education, free health.. The only problem is that shes the true ruler and queen.. But that could be easily fixed :)

And where does all the money for all the "free" stuff come from??? :confused:

-snip-

the message is equality in case you couldn't tell


just checking... do these come out as images or links to imageshack pages?
(i've lost my Dreamweaver cd :mad: )
images, not links

And where does all the money for all the "free" stuff come from??? :confused:
TANSTAAFL, sez I.

how about this-
http://img141.echo.cx/img141/4038/capitalcrime4ge.jpg

Communism has murdered dissidents, they've ensured that the great part of the populace is forced into unpaid forced labor, communism has created artificial famines in order to crush dissent, when Communists "fire" people they are killed (96 million of them in fact), and Communist countries have been and are the poorest nations on the earth while these nations' elite party bosses have lived in incredible opulence.

This is Communism.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/PureMetal/udcp2.jpg



Um... you can help prevent poverty without submitting to the economic controls of a socialist government. You're basically saying "people can't be trusted with the choice to do good, so they must be forced".

well of course it's awesome, it's mine :cool:

i don't think it would be as easy as you think, i have a whole cult and an army that you'd have to deal with :p

But who's PAYING for all of it?? The army... the free services... No one does anything for nothing... No incentive, no service. (Sorry, that's the economist in me...) ;)

Actually, Myrth and I don't care much for each other...
oh good, but still, you sounded like him!

Communism has murdered dissidents, they've ensured that the great part of the populace is forced into unpaid forced labor, communism has created artificial famines in order to crush dissent, when Communists "fire" people they are killed (96 million of them in fact), and Communist countries have been and are the poorest nations on the earth while these nations' elite party bosses have lived in incredible opulence.

This is Communism.
this is totalitarianism.

this is wrong.



this is not what the UDCP stands for

But who's PAYING for all of it?? The army... the free services... No one does anything for nothing... No incentive, no service. (Sorry, that's the economist in me...) ;)
they call it tax......

Communism has murdered dissidents, they've ensured that the great part of the populace is forced into unpaid forced labor, communism has created artificial famines in order to crush dissent, when Communists "fire" people they are killed (96 million of them in fact), and Communist countries have been and are the poorest nations on the earth while these nations' elite party bosses have lived in incredible opulence.

This is Communism.
Wrong! Not only is not communism but a twisted form of socialism, it is a different form of socialism to that which we propose!

By free, you mean paid for by the tax payer, of course. Either that or remember that anything free is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Well considering that my nation has 100 percent tax rate.. Im not realy bothered by taxes. As long as the goverment supplies me with what I need, then I dont really need money..

And Tink, You cant really use that army when im up close... Youll have to order room service once in your lifetime :)

TANSTAAFL, sez I.
:confused:

I didn't read this whole thread, but is there a thread or link that describes each party's ideals? All in one thread?

If not, it would be a good idea and an easy way to compare and contrast. :)

No, there isn't, but you can read the full manifesto of each party (linked to in the first post of this thread), and compare that way...

Um... you can help prevent poverty without submitting to the economic controls of a socialist government. You're basically saying "people can't be trusted with the choice to do good, so they must be forced".

This is true, and I'm no socialist, but most people, especially during hard times, will look out for #1. There's morality and there's reality, and for most people, even those who think themselves altruistic (such as myself), we really aren't.

I don't think we need socialism. I'm just one of those slightly left of center moderates...

I wish there was a "Slightly Left of Center Moderate Party" :D

Socialism still says that you can not be trusted to make your own decisions, so we will make them for you.

Sorry, how is that supposed to work?

they call it tax......
Then its not free now is it?

Well considering that my nation has 100 percent tax rate.. Im not realy bothered by taxes. As long as the goverment supplies me with what I need, then I dont really need money..

And Tink, You cant really use that army when im up close... Youll have to order room service once in your lifetime :)
my army wouldn't let you near me and if you did manage to get passed them then you'll have my stalkers to deal with! they wouldn't let you lay a finger on me! and that last bit ('Youll have to order room service once in your lifetime') didn't make sense to me :confused:

And TInk, TANSTAAFL means "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch."

Or, incidentally, a free health system. Or a free education system. Or a free... well, you get the picture.

A question.

Since Melkor is the only member of the "Up Yours" party, what is he going to do with the extra seats?


Can he turn them into a mini bar?

Um... you can help prevent poverty without submitting to the economic controls of a socialist government. You're basically saying "people can't be trusted with the choice to do good, so they must be forced".
no, i'm saying that people are greedy & selfish and shouldn't let this happen. under capitalism, it does happen, has happened, and the terrible mixture of extreme capitalism (and subsequent inequality) and corruption in Africa has lead to this tragedy.

capitalism doesn't work to help these people, it keeps them in chains and starves them. evidence? look at the place now. look at 3rd world countries now.

communism may not be the ultimate answer, a golden cure or whatever, but it is an alternative. an alternative that could work - a system that puts equality and fairness at its heart; something capitalism is evidently opposed to.

Then its not free now is it?
don't be such a damn smart arse!

This is true, and I'm no socialist, but most people, especially during hard times, will look out for #1. There's morality and there's reality, and for most people, even those who think themselves altruistic (such as myself), we really aren't.

I don't think we need socialism. I'm just one of those slightly left of center moderates...

I wish there was a "Slightly Left of Center Moderate Party" :D

The closest to that is the Classic Liberals. Go read the manifesto rather than listen to the Socialist slurs on capitalism. We are all about freedom of individual choice, which includes many items from the slightly left of centre agenda.

my army wouldn't let you near me and if you did manage to get passed them then you'll have my stalkers to deal with! they wouldn't let you lay a finger on me! and that last bit ('Youll have to order room service once in your lifetime') didn't make sense to me :confused:

Hasent anybody ever seen movies where the assasin dresses up as a bellboy and delivers the food to the victim then assasinates them? Come on Tink, use that imagination ;)

no, i'm saying that people are greedy & selfish and shouldn't let this happen. under capitalism, it does happen, has happened, and the terrible mixture of extreme capitalism (and subsequent inequality) and corruption in Africa has lead to this tragedy.

capitalism doesn't work to help these people, it keeps them in chains and starves them. evidence? look at the place now. look at 3rd world countries now.

communism may not be the ultimate answer, a golden cure or whatever, but it is an alternative. an alternative that could work - a system that puts equality and fairness at its heart; something capitalism is evidently opposed to.

But is equality at the cost of freedom truly fair?

A question.

Since Melkor is the only member of the "Up Yours" party, what is he going to do with the extra seats?


Can he turn it into a mini bar?

Well, ideally I'd just have my votes count as x where x is the number of seats I'd win. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case. If I get more than three seats, I will hold interviews for appointments to them. If I get just three, I already know who I'm appointing. They won't be party members their own interests, not mine], but merely people of strong conviction who I admire.

Wrong! Not only is not communism but a twisted form of socialism, it is a different form of socialism to that which we propose!

And the capitalism that you demonize is a twisted form of capitalism that is different from the one we propose.

No, there isn't, but you can read the full manifesto of each party (linked to in the first post of this thread), and compare that way...

I didn't look at the first post. I think I'll check out these manifestos... :)

no, i'm saying that people are greedy & selfish and shouldn't let this happen.

Then why don't you and all of the other people who think like this stop trying to give all of their money to a government and start giving that money to charities that will actually help others?

Socialism still says that you can not be trusted to make your own decisions, so we will make them for you.

Sorry, how is that supposed to work?
collective decisions, informed decisions, knowledge of the big picture - not just what matters to 'number one'

socialism aims to help ALL people. capitalism aims only to help yourself

A question.

Since Melkor is the only member of the "Up Yours" party, what is he going to do with the extra seats?


Can he turn it into a mini bar?

I would guess it would be up to him. (I somehow get the feeling that it will not be offered to Myrth :eek: )

Hasent anybody ever seen movies where the assasin dresses up as a bellboy and delivers the food to the victim then assasinates them? Come on Tink, use that imagination ;)
ooooooooooh! it all makes sense now! well I have ways of making you succumb to my charms ;)

And the capitalism that you demonize is a twisted form of capitalism that is different from the one we propose.

Ultimately though, your lifting of restrictions will lead to more cases like the ones mentioned

Then why don't you and all of the other people who think like this stop trying to give all of their money to a government and start giving that money to charities that will actually help others?
because the world is not yet a socialist ideal and we still need to live in the REAL WORLD system, as much as it is flawed. we still need money to live in this current system.

sorry but thats a profoundly stupid question :rolleyes:



personally i would give love to give much of my income to charity, but income just about covers rent and food at the moment :(
when i earn more, more will go to charity

Bah! Why are the socialists so not left? In my country we would call them Social democrats...

i guss i have to wote on the commies then.

ooooooooooh! it all makes sense now! well I have ways of making you succumb to my charms ;)

Bah.. I've seen enough Star Wars to let me walk around blind folded!!! Plus im a highly ambitioned person and nothing can stop me from taking over the world :)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y267/PureMetal/udcp2.jpg

the message is equality in case you couldn't tell

just checking... do these come out as images or links to imageshack pages?
(i've lost my Dreamweaver cd :mad: )

Nice work. :)

It comes out as a link, though.

Bah! Why are the socialists so not left? In my country we would call them Social democrats...

i guss i have to wote on the commies then.
you could vote COTP......

Tink. Why do you have a link to your forum if you cannot actually view it?

Not a politics debate...Thats it...Im voting for Tink,yes she may make the national color Pink,But at least she actually is intresting to listen to...

they call it tax......

Zactly zactly!!! So that is hardly free... not free at all. No such thing as a free lunch, or a free widget or anything else...

Bah! Why are the socialists so not left? In my country we would call them Social democrats...

i guss i have to wote on the commies then.
*cough RTP*

because the world is not yet a socialist ideal and we still need to live in the REAL WORLD system, as much as it is flawed. we still need money to live in this current system.

sorry but thats a profoundly stupid question :rolleyes:



personally i would give love to give much of my income to charity, but income just about covers rent and food at the moment :(
when i earn more, more will go to charity

You'd have more money if you stopped calling for the government to take your money and make decisions for you.

Bah! Why are the socialists so not left? In my country we would call them Social democrats...

i guss i have to wote on the commies then.

Thank you for your vote. :)

Well, ideally I'd just have my votes count as x where x is the number of seats I'd win. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be the case. If I get more than three seats, I will hold interviews for appointments to them. If I get just three, I already know who I'm appointing. They won't be party members their own interests, not mine], but merely people of strong conviction who I admire.

Seems rational.

If your into the whole (representative) government thing that is ;)

Bah.. I've seen enough Star Wars to let me walk around blind folded!!! Plus im a highly ambitioned person and nothing can stop me from taking over the world :)not using your sight will just heighten your other senses, I'll just have to take advantage of that! meh, i could try, and at least i'd have a bit of fun before i died :p

personally i would give love to give much of my income to charity, but income just about covers rent and food at the moment :(


How do you pay for your internet connection?

Also, party related question:

If my nation was ruled by your party, and I refused to work, what would happen?

But is equality at the cost of freedom truly fair?
it all depends on which you value more.


read Rawls' work on the Veil of Ignorance (i could type out a section if i could be arsed) and there's ample justification for equality. i admit economic freedoms are inherently curbed under communism/socialism, but this is the price to pay for such equality.


this is what it all boils down to really, the difference between left and right, imho (well a lot of it anyway)

Nice work. :)

It comes out as a link, though.

I see a picture...

The closest to that is the Classic Liberals. Go read the manifesto rather than listen to the Socialist slurs on capitalism. We are all about freedom of individual choice, which includes many items from the slightly left of centre agenda.

LIES! His 'morality and reality' statement seems to imply more of a tendancy to agree with me. you foolish Classic Liberals probably think morality is subjective.

Tink. Why do you have a link to your forum if you cannot actually view it?

Hmm??

I see a picture...

As do I

collective decisions, informed decisions, knowledge of the big picture - not just what matters to 'number one'

socialism aims to help ALL people. capitalism aims only to help yourself

So the individual members of the collective are not capable of deciding for their particular circumstances, but somehow, when they get together they are capable of deciding for all circumstances.

That is going to work really really well, isn't it.

Also, they can not see the big picture by themselves, but in a crowd it becomes apparent. I am not sure I believe that.

Do you really not care what happens to you? I care what happens to me, and I think all intelligent beings care about what happens to themselves.

So if you don't care then you are not intelligent, or you do care and you are telling me that I shouldn't. So a socialist is either not intelligent or is a hypocrite, which is it?

Tink. Why do you have a link to your forum if you cannot actually view it?
if you join it then you can view it......

Seems rational.
Oh my yes. Reason > All

If your into the whole (representative) government thing that is ;)
I am to a degree, but like it says in my platform I'm all about absolute power. If only because I'm honest with myself.

not using your sight will just heighten your other senses, I'll just have to take advantage of that! meh, i could try, and at least i'd have a bit of fun before i died :p

Of course you could become my second in command :)... With people such as DC, or Noblemen, Pure Metal, and the many other NationStates geniuses as my main generals.. Ill have the world in weeks.. Muahahahahahahahahahaha

How do you pay for your internet connection?

Also, party related question:

If my nation was ruled by your party, and I refused to work, what would happen?
i have enough for a net connection. i'm a nerd, its an essential... it counts as 'food' :p

and as for that question, read the manifesto

i have enough for a net connection. i'm a nerd, its an essential... it counts as 'food' :p



Amen Brother.

no, i'm saying that people are greedy & selfish and shouldn't let this happen. under capitalism, it does happen, has happened, and the terrible mixture of extreme capitalism (and subsequent inequality) and corruption in Africa has lead to this tragedy.

capitalism doesn't work to help these people, it keeps them in chains and starves them. evidence? look at the place now. look at 3rd world countries now.

The only thing that can help third world countries is economic development, the only thing that can spur that is free trade which allows strong outside money to flow in.

If you want to talk about the effects of capitalism on third world countries, maybe I should bring up SE Asia, communism did wonders for them.

communism may not be the ultimate answer, a golden cure or whatever, but it is an alternative. an alternative that could work - a system that puts equality and fairness at its heart; something capitalism is evidently opposed to.

You already know this, but your idea of equality is far different from mine, but just in case someone else might read it, here we go:

Fairness is this: One is born owning only their own body, I believe we can all agree on this. The only economic value one's body has is labor. Now as one enters into society he or she offers this labor as a utility for the other members of society. In return for the labor provided to society, the individual recieves capital in the form of wages equal to the value of the labor provided. They then can turn and offer this capital that they have recieved for their labor and give it to someone else in exchange for labor.

This is capitalism. You are born with labor, you trade in your labor, you recieve capital for your labor. We, the NS Classic Liberals, support this system and fight to maintain that at all points the trading of labor and capital is a personal decision. We will never support a government that strips a person of labor (the only thing one naturally owns) at the point of a gun.

time for more banners

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/6043/catrtp7pr.jpg

it all depends on which you value more.


read Rawls' work on the Veil of Ignorance (i could type out a section if i could be arsed) and there's ample justification for equality. i admit economic freedoms are inherently curbed under communism/socialism, but this is the price to pay for such equality.


this is what it all boils down to really, the difference between left and right, imho (well a lot of it anyway)

You do know that Rawls built a socialist principle into his description of human nature that simply is not there, don't you. A Theory of Justice is a Theory of Socialist Justice from page one.

The loss of economic freedoms are not justified, as Rawls' equality depends upon humans acting in ways humans do not normally act.

LIES! His 'morality and reality' statement seems to imply more of a tendancy to agree with me. you foolish Classic Liberals probably think morality is subjective.


If you're talking about me, I'm not a HE! (Just wanted to clarify :p )

So the individual members of the collective are not capable of deciding for their particular circumstances, but somehow, when they get together they are capable of deciding for all circumstances.

That is going to work really really well, isn't it.

Also, they can not see the big picture by themselves, but in a crowd it becomes apparent. I am not sure I believe that.

Do you really not care what happens to you? I care what happens to me, and I think all intelligent beings care about what happens to themselves.

So if you don't care then you are not intelligent, or you do care and you are telling me that I shouldn't. So a socialist is either not intelligent or is a hypocrite, which is it?
i care about myself, but i care about 'the group' more than myself. i'm willing to sacrifice my own benefit for the benefit of the whole. its altruism.... is it so really hard to understand?
well i suppose you are a capitalist :p

this is why altruism is generally regarded as a prerequisit for communism.



and this is why the group decision will be better. a group can best decide what happens to the group, while an individual who is only looking out for themselves will shun the greater good for their own benefit - hence group decisions, that take into account the big picture, are better in my opinion

If you're talking about me, I'm not a HE! (Just wanted to clarify :p )
Ah. Apologies.

if you join it then you can view it......
K.. Just wondering, it says error message and doesn't say you have to join in order to see it. Nevermind.


Oh and everyone... Vote NS Classic Liberals. Freedom to do what you want, within sensible limits

Zactly zactly!!! So that is hardly free... not free at all. No such thing as a free lunch, or a free widget or anything else...
well, some people can't afford decent health and education and some people can afford that and so much more, think about the poor family, they can't afford to send their kids to a decent school so their kids don't get a proper education and then don't get a decent job because of it, they don't earn much money and then the same thing happens to their kids, it's just one long, viscious circle, however if people pay taxes, with richer people paying slightly more because they can afford that then all kids get the same, decent level of education, they all have the same chances in life, and one day some kids from poorer backrounds will have been able to make something of themselves and wil lbe earning plenty of money and will be able to give back

well, some people can't afford decent health and education and some people can afford that and so much more, think about the poor family, they can't afford to send their kids to a decent school so their kids don't get a proper education and then don't get a decent job because of it, they don't earn much money and then the same thing happens to their kids, it's just one long, viscious circle, however if people pay taxes, with richer people paying slightly more because they can afford that then all kids get the same, decent level of education, they all have the same chances in life, and one day some kids from poorer backrounds will have been able to make something of themselves and wil lbe earning plenty of money and will be able to give back

*claps* Bravo,Someone that made a point without using words that make me use my dictionary every sentence

i care about myself, but i care about 'the group' more than myself. i'm willing to sacrifice my own benefit for the benefit of the whole. its altruism.... is it so really hard to understand?
well i suppose you are a capitalist :p

Is altruism really altruism when it is involuntary?

well, some people can't afford decent health and education and some people can afford that and so much more, think about the poor family, they can't afford to send their kids to a decent school so their kids don't get a proper education and then don't get a decent job because of it, they don't earn much money and then the same thing happens to their kids, it's just one long, viscious circle, however if people pay taxes, with richer people paying slightly more because they can afford that then all kids get the same, decent level of education, they all have the same chances in life, and one day some kids from poorer backrounds will have been able to make something of themselves and wil lbe earning plenty of money and will be able to give back
I'll get to the bottom as to why this is bullshit when Parliament is in session ;)

You already know this, but your idea of equality is far different from mine, but just in case someone else might read it, here we go:

Fairness is this: One is born owning only their own body, I believe we can all agree on this. The only economic value one's body has is labor. Now as one enters into society he or she offers this labor as a utility for the other members of society. In return for the labor provided to society, the individual recieves capital in the form of wages equal to the value of the labor provided. They then can turn and offer this capital that they have recieved for their labor and give it to someone else in exchange for labor.

This is capitalism. You are born with labor, you trade in your labor, you recieve capital for your labor. We, the NS Classic Liberals, support this system and fight to maintain that at all points the trading of labor and capital is a personal decision. We will never support a government that strips a person of labor (the only thing one naturally owns) at the point of a gun.

But the problem is, that's not how it works in practice. The system is completely skewed. Also, you're leaving out that, under capitalism, the drive for ever more profit is encouraged, and that in order to make senseless profit, the rich will exploit the poor. It's under capitalism that people are robbed of the fruits of their labour, those fruits going to increase the profits of their masters. And, finally, you're leaving out social responsability. (And yes, I know, for you it should be a matter of choice).

VOTE NS CLASSIC LIBERALS FOR REAL FREEDOM

http://armageddonproject.com/ftpdrop/nsclassicliberal4.jpg

I love propaganda. :D

this is why the group decision will be better. a group can best decide what happens to the group, while an individual who is only looking out for themselves will shun the greater good for their own benefit - hence group decisions, that take into account the big picture, are better in my opinion

If an individual is ony looking out for themselves, why would they, when in a group, go for the greater good if they are looking out for themselves? You cant say an individual will shun the greater good for their own benefit and then say if the individual was part of a group they would automatically go for the greater good.

I'll get to the bottom as to why this is bullshit when Parliament is in session ;)
it's not bullshit!

*starts walking along the stairs till he finally gets to the rooftops. Takes out sniper rifle and reddies himself* So many political parties... perfect place to start taking over the world :)

well, some people can't afford decent health and education and some people can afford that and so much more, think about the poor family, they can't afford to send their kids to a decent school so their kids don't get a proper education and then don't get a decent job because of it, they don't earn much money and then the same thing happens to their kids, it's just one long, viscious circle, however if people pay taxes, with richer people paying slightly more because they can afford that then all kids get the same, decent level of education, they all have the same chances in life, and one day some kids from poorer backrounds will have been able to make something of themselves and wil lbe earning plenty of money and will be able to give back

Bravo, TInk. Now I know why I love you so much. :p

:fluffle:

But the problem is, that's not how it works in practice. The system is completely skewed. Also, you're leaving out that, under capitalism, the drive for ever more profit is encouraged, and that in order to make senseless profit, the rich will exploit the poor. It's under capitalism that people are robbed of the fruits of their labour, those fruits going to increase the profits of their masters. And, finally, you're leaving out social responsability. (And yes, I know, for you it should be a matter of choice).
The idea of "social responsibility" typically appeals to the notion that I have some sort of 'debt' to society, which in turn implies that I am responsible for things that happened before my birth. you know, since society's problems are quite a bit more far-reaching than the events of the last 20 years. No one asked me if I wanted to be born, I didn't sign up for this. Thus, it's ridiculous to make me pay for circumstances I didn't create. I say "UP YOURS!" to social debt.

Bravo, TInk. Now I know why I love you so much. :p

:fluffle:
:D :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

well, some people can't afford decent health and education and some people can afford that and so much more, think about the poor family, they can't afford to send their kids to a decent school so their kids don't get a proper education and then don't get a decent job because of it, they don't earn much money and then the same thing happens to their kids, it's just one long, viscious circle, however if people pay taxes, with richer people paying slightly more because they can afford that then all kids get the same, decent level of education, they all have the same chances in life, and one day some kids from poorer backrounds will have been able to make something of themselves and wil lbe earning plenty of money and will be able to give back

Then why did the lefties in britain, aka the Labour Party fight to get rid of grammar schools that helped poor kids who were bright move up in the world and achieve social mobility.

Working class people like my Dad. He was from a poor family in Romford, got into a grammar school and managed to achieve mobility and allow me to be raised in a middle class background while still instilling me with the values he was brought up with

it's not bullshit!
Sadly, it is. Altruism, as a point of fact, is a virtue when deployed by the individual, and a curse when deployed by the state.

:D :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Im starting to think you already have your own cult :rolleyes:

The idea of "social responsibility" typically appeals to the notion that I have some sort of 'debt' to society, which in turn implies that I am responsible for things that happened before my birth. you know, since society's problems are quite a bit more far-reaching than the events of the last 20 years. No one asked me if I wanted to be born, I didn't sign up for this. Thus, it's ridiculous to make me pay for circumstances I didn't create. I say "UP YOURS!" to social debt.
here, here!! *applauds*

Says :upyours: to the socialists and communists

Then why did the lefties in britain, aka the Labour Party fight to get rid of grammar schools that helped poor kids who were bright move up in the world and achieve social mobility.

Working class people like my Dad. He was from a poor family in Romford, got into a grammar school and managed to achieve mobility and allow me to be raised in a middle class background while still instilling me with the values he was brought up with
what has the Labour party got to do with me?

Sadly, it is. Altruism, as a point of fact, is a virtue when deployed by the individual, and a curse when deployed by the state.
It is indeed, when the states deploys it they infringe upon people's liberties.

i care about myself, but i care about 'the group' more than myself. i'm willing to sacrifice my own benefit for the benefit of the whole. its altruism.... is it so really hard to understand?
well i suppose you are a capitalist :p
You are attacking the idea of looking after number 1, and now you say that you look after number 1. So hypocrisy it is then.

this is why altruism is generally regarded as a prerequisit for communism.
Ah but wait a moment. You want it both ways. "i care about myself', and 'i'm willing to sacrifice my own benefit" I was wrong, it is not hypocrisy its insanity. Altruism, by the way, is a myth. People only ever do things because they want to. If it makes you feel good to help others, then you will help others because it makes you feel good. Not because the others needed help. (You can deceive yourself that you are being altruistic, but self interest is there underneath.)



and this is why the group decision will be better. a group can best decide what happens to the group, while an individual who is only looking out for themselves will shun the greater good for their own benefit - hence group decisions, that take into account the big picture, are better in my opinion
So putting people in a group means they will suddenly and mysteriously consider the needs of the other above their own needs. No. All that happens is that you get the inevitable fights between factions as all left wing groups have always suffered from. These factions fighting for their particular interests, not those of the group as a whole.

Keep it much simpler, and allow people to decide for themselves.

Freedom with style - Classic Liberals 05

I voted for the Revolutionary Trotskyist Party! Long live Trotskyism! The only road to a socialist world. Don't be fooled by the reformist 'democratic socialists', they will stab you in the back! They will go where they deserve to go...THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY!

Im starting to think you already have your own cult :rolleyes:

She has already got her own cult! The cult preceded the party, which was named after it.

Of course you could become my second in command :)... With people such as DC, or Noblemen, Pure Metal, and the many other NationStates geniuses as my main generals.. Ill have the world in weeks.. Muahahahahahahahahahaha
'NS genious'?? :confused:
excellent :p


The only thing that can help third world countries is economic development, the only thing that can spur that is free trade which allows strong outside money to flow in.

If you want to talk about the effects of capitalism on third world countries, maybe I should bring up SE Asia, communism did wonders for them.
those countries weren't following the UDCP plan :p

but seriously, fair point. but then again, hasn't capitalism done so much good for the millions upon millions of starving and diseased people in Africa? millions of people who cannot afford to live, to buy the drugs they need to say alive, for just a dollar a day, all because the pharmaceutical companies would rather make a profit than help people.
these companies have signed the death warrant of millions of people.
capitalism has got them there, capitalism keeps them there, and capitalism kills them.


at least in totalitarian communism they kill people will good old fashioned guns :p (j/k, j/k :eek: )


You already know this, but your idea of equality is far different from mine, but just in case someone else might read it, here we go:

Fairness is this: One is born owning only their own body, I believe we can all agree on this. The only economic value one's body has is labor. Now as one enters into society he or she offers this labor as a utility for the other members of society. In return for the labor provided to society, the individual recieves capital in the form of wages equal to the value of the labor provided. They then can turn and offer this capital that they have recieved for their labor and give it to someone else in exchange for labor.

This is capitalism. You are born with labor, you trade in your labor, you recieve capital for your labor. We, the NS Classic Liberals, support this system and fight to maintain that at all points the trading of labor and capital is a personal decision. We will never support a government that strips a person of labor (the only thing one naturally owns) at the point of a gun.
one is born. some are born into privilege, some are born into poverty. some can get a better start in life, some can get none. some can get rich, some starve. this is not fair.
we supply our labour. why? becuase we need money, money to live, to meet the needs of survival. as Marx puts it "labouring for survival is an animal activity"
trading our common commodity, labour, in this way reduces us to mere animals. the UDCP has a plan that still involves producing goods and services, still maintaining and improving the quality of life, but also ensuring equality and allowing us to become more than mere animals.


You do know that Rawls built a socialist principle into his description of human nature that simply is not there, don't you. A Theory of Justice is a Theory of Socialist Justice from page one.
why else would i be referencing him? socialist justice is what the UDCP desires, and Rawls' work backs this up pretty well.



The loss of economic freedoms are not justified, as Rawls' equality depends upon humans acting in ways humans do not normally act.i assume you don't like the socialist element within human nature? you don't think humans can be altruistic or that our nature is malleable?

i do.
simple, unresolvable difference.

Sadly, it is. Altruism, as a point of fact, is a virtue when deployed by the individual, and a curse when deployed by the state.
and why is that?

But the problem is, that's not how it works in practice. The system is completely skewed. Also, you're leaving out that, under capitalism, the drive for ever more profit is encouraged, and that in order to make senseless profit, the rich will exploit the poor. It's under capitalism that people are robbed of the fruits of their labour, those fruits going to increase the profits of their masters. And, finally, you're leaving out social responsability. (And yes, I know, for you it should be a matter of choice).

First off, explain to me where the exploitation of the poor comes in. The poor must agree to be paid the wages they receive for their labor. If they are paid low wages, that only means that their labor does not offer much utility to society and is easily replaceable. As for the profit motive, it maintains that a fair labor/wage exchange occurs.

As for social responsibility, it is a two way street, the person is responsible to society, and the society is responsible to the individual. If the individual doesn't provide utility to the society, the society will not provide utility to the individual. If the individual provides utility to society, the society will provide utility to the individual.

Im starting to think you already have your own cult :rolleyes:
i do, the cult came before the party, if you see anyone with something nice written about me in their sig, they're in my cult!

what has the Labour party got to do with me?
Your advocating that a state funded education system will give everyone the same chance to succeed and will lead to fairness. This is blatantly not the case, state schools in bad areas or just plain bad state schools fail the children and hurt their chances of succeeding in life.

The state schools have no need to compete for pupils due to no competition and so do not have to be good to survive. I was fortunate enough to go to a good state school.

and why is that?
Because nine times out of ten it requires taking money out of my pocket to do so?

Did I vote for the Federal Minimum Wage increase that is responsible for these bums living in shit conditions? No. Do I even endorse the politics of the man who but the bill to vote? Of course not.

Then why am I paying for them?

I looked thru the manifestos, and the link for Cult of Tink was just a pic of her boobs...

i assume you don't like the socialist element within human nature?

Do people still believe there is an inate human nature? :headbang:

Your advocating that a state funded education system will give everyone the same chance to succeed and will lead to fairness. This is blatantly not the case, state schools in bad areas or just plain bad state schools fail the children and hurt their chances of succeeding in life.

The state schools have no need to compete for pupils due to no competition and so do not have to be good to survive. I was fortunate enough to go to a good state school.
that's just because the Labour party aren't running schools properly, what it needs is for proper standards to be set and enforced and that's what COTP would do

First off, explain to me where the exploitation of the poor comes in. The poor must agree to be paid the wages they receive for their labor. If they are paid low wages, that only means that their labor does not offer much utility to society and is easily replaceable. As for the profit motive, it maintains that a fair labor/wage exchange occurs.

As for social responsibility, it is a two way street, the person is responsible to society, and the society is responsible to the individual. If the individual doesn't provide utility to the society, the society will not provide utility to the individual. If the individual provides utility to society, the society will provide utility to the individual.

I agree, except in the cases where the individual is unable to provide utility to society. (Illness, etc.) That was probably mentioned already, I assume.

but seriously, fair point. but then again, hasn't capitalism done so much good for the millions upon millions of starving and diseased people in Africa? millions of people who cannot afford to live, to buy the drugs they need to say alive, for just a dollar a day, all because the pharmaceutical companies would rather make a profit than help people.
these companies have signed the death warrant of millions of people.
capitalism has got them there, capitalism keeps them there, and capitalism kills them.
EXCUSE ME?!? Go and read some first hand accounts from AIDS and relief workers in Africa. The vast majority of the time, the workers bring FREE drugs, FREE education and FREE condoms/protection and the people REFUSE them. They refuse to use protection. They refuse to stop risky sexual behavior. The refuse to take the drug treatments. They die by their own CHOICE.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Of course, under a FREE Communist/Socialist system, these people would have the RIGHT to be FORCED to take the drugs, use the protection and have drugs FORCED into their bodies...for the good of the collective.

You are attacking the idea of looking after number 1, and now you say that you look after number 1. So hypocrisy it is then.


Ah but wait a moment. You want it both ways. "i care about myself', and 'i'm willing to sacrifice my own benefit" I was wrong, it is not hypocrisy its insanity. Altruism, by the way, is a myth. People only ever do things because they want to. If it makes you feel good to help others, then you will help others because it makes you feel good. Not because the others needed help. (You can deceive yourself that you are being altruistic, but self interest is there underneath.)

*sigh* you're seeing this as black-and-white and taking either idea to extremes.
i can care about myself to a degree, and care about the whole to a greater degree.
the difference between that and capitalists is they care about the whole to a degree, and care about themselves to a greater degree.

hence i can care about myself while still be willing to sacrifice my benefit for the benefit of the whole

now, the former is not true altruism, but it is impossible to be a true altruist in the current society. it requires society to support altruism, to reward it, and to be able to survive as an altruist - the UDCP plan.


and just because, allegedly, you do an altruistic act for your own good feelings, doesn't negate the fact it is an altruisic act.
the motive may never be truly altruistic, but the actions can, and its the actions that matter.


So putting people in a group means they will suddenly and mysteriously consider the needs of the other above their own needs. No. All that happens is that you get the inevitable fights between factions as all left wing groups have always suffered from. These factions fighting for their particular interests, not those of the group as a whole.

Keep it much simpler, and allow people to decide for themselves.

if the purpose of the group is to benefit all people (or those in the group) that is what will be achieved, dispite fighting or disagreement.



and now i must leave for dinner! woohoo! back soon

I looked thru the manifestos, and the link for Cult of Tink was just a pic of her boobs...
no it's not, i just checked......

Your advocating that a state funded education system will give everyone the same chance to succeed and will lead to fairness. This is blatantly not the case, state schools in bad areas or just plain bad state schools fail the children and hurt their chances of succeeding in life.

The state schools have no need to compete for pupils due to no competition and so do not have to be good to survive. I was fortunate enough to go to a good state school.

Thats why you pour even more money into education.. If you rule the world you wont need an army, meaning you can pour all the money into education.. Education is the way of the future, its how kids are brought up and set the basic standards, sadly enough parents dont influence kids as much as school does. I think more classes should be taught, more history classes, and you put kids with a daily phycologists session, and thus you have the future. No more violence, no more crime, only moral people that work their asses off

i assume you don't like the socialist element within human nature? you don't think humans can be altruistic or that our nature is malleable?

i do.
simple, unresolvable difference.

No, not unresolvable as it is a matter of empirical evidence. Show me one example of non family altruism that is not generated by the "I want to feel good about me" factor.

Our nature is not very malleable, if it were we would not be able to understand the literature of the ancient greeks, would we?

All the evidence points to us being inherently self interested and that our nature if it changes at all changes very very slowly indeed.

Bas a politics on a false assumption about the people involved and you are heading for disaster. Base the politics on harnessing the real nature of the people and success follows. Which political system has been successful in this world of human beings? Answer that and you answer the question on human nature.

that's just because the Labour party aren't running schools properly, what it needs is for proper standards to be set and enforced and that's what COTP would do

In the US, most of the good teachers do not want to work in the bad neighborhoods, and they won't. You can't force someone to work where they don't want to, unless that's part of your platform. I think it's someone's right to decide not to work where they feel they may be shot at any time.

Everything isn't so simple... Not here anyway...

Do people still believe there is an inate human nature? :headbang:Yes they do. Human nature is evil. That's the way I designed'em. :D


~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Maybe someone should do something like this for the political parties of NS General:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/enParties.gif

Thats why you pour even more money into education.. If you rule the world you wont need an army, meaning you can pour all the money into education.. Education is the way of the future, its how kids are brought up and set the basic standards, sadly enough parents dont influence kids as much as school does. I think more classes should be taught, more history classes, and you put kids with a daily phycologists session, and thus you have the future. No more violence, no more crime, only moral people that work their asses off

You are not ruling the world here, just an imaginary country. This election is for a nation, not for a world.

No, not unresolvable as it is a matter of empirical evidence. Show me one example of non family altruism that is not generated by the "I want to feel good about me" factor.


Just to beat them to the punch, I guarantee the response will be something along the lines of a soldier sacrificing himself by throwing himself onto a grenade in a foxhole or something.

EXCUSE ME?!? Go and read some first hand accounts from AIDS and relief workers in Africa. The vast majority of the time, the workers bring FREE drugs, FREE education and FREE condoms/protection and the people REFUSE them. They refuse to use protection. They refuse to stop risky sexual behavior. The refuse to take the drug treatments. They die by their own CHOICE.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Of course, under a FREE Communist/Socialist system, these people would have the RIGHT to be FORCED to take the drugs, use the protection and have drugs FORCED into their bodies...for the good of the collective.
right now i'm reading "The End Of Poverty" by Jeffery Sachs, and this is not at all what he describes.

tell me where to read those reports and i'll believe you - not that i don't believe this doesn't happen at all. whether it does or it doesn't, those that DO wish to accept drugs CANNOT afford them because the drugs companies are only out for themselves and their profit

those countries weren't following the UDCP plan :p

but seriously, fair point. but then again, hasn't capitalism done so much good for the millions upon millions of starving and diseased people in Africa? millions of people who cannot afford to live, to buy the drugs they need to say alive, for just a dollar a day, all because the pharmaceutical companies would rather make a profit than help people.

Sally Struthers would be proud, then she would eat you.

However, the countries in Africa need governments that are open to economic development. Unfortunately, the Western world really cares nothing for African nations (outside of South Africa), and has done very little to promote economic development either.

we supply our labour. why? becuase we need money, money to live, to meet the needs of survival. as Marx puts it "labouring for survival is an animal activity"
trading our common commodity, labour, in this way reduces us to mere animals. the UDCP has a plan that still involves producing goods and services, still maintaining and improving the quality of life, but also ensuring equality and allowing us to become more than mere animals.

How many animals do you that trade in their labor for capital?

Now, having been raised on a farm, I have seen quite a few animals that have traded in their labor in return for the essentials they need to live, but that sounds a little more like communism.

And we are animals, changing to communism will not change that. Now when you find a system where everyone can actually stop working and we can all survive, then get back to me.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe someone should do something like this for the political parties of NS General:
http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/enParties.gif

Yeah but nobody would be able to say where the other parties were... unless we drew up a committee!

You are not ruling the world here, just an imaginary country. This election is for a nation, not for a world.

Ruling a nation is much harder than ruling the world... So ill base my discussions as if i was ruling the world :)

Ahh! I saw something I have always agreed with, even though I like to think I'm an "altruist". There really is no such thing. If you do something good for someone else, even anonymously, it makes you feel good, which is a benefit for you, so yes, there really is no such thing at all.

I guess when I say "altruism", I refer to what most people think of... giving of one's self in some way, without a necessarily economic or tangible reward.

Yeah but nobody would be able to say where the other parties were... unless we drew up a committee!

The leader of each party could take the political compass test, answering each question according to the manifesto.

In the US, most of the good teachers do not want to work in the bad neighborhoods, and they won't. You can't force someone to work where they don't want to, unless that's part of your platform. I think it's someone's right to decide not to work where they feel they may be shot at any time.Well, if the problem is bad neighborhoods, why don't we eliminate bad neighborhoods? Isn't that the whole objective? It's nice to spend money on education, but we'll need to spend more on the police and social welfare to prevent the bad neighborhoods from getting bad education.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe