NationStates Jolt Archive

Same here.

They weren't RP'd against either of us for the transport and are thus not an agreeable force.
What are you talking about? And you are just like Amestria. Where was the dispute when it was posted way back o nthe first page?

Just a note Regarding the TSU, they've returned to BC and they have around a quarter of the providence on their side up there, They are also heavily armed and are gaining more followers.

Add some details to the post on the TSU's political activies and everyting will be fine.

If need be I can provide an effective exit strategy for them, after all if there is no knowledge of them being there then they are breaking the laws of not only their own country but the country they are in, meaning what happens to them is of no matter, except perhaps to my scientists....

Question: The Lone Alliance made a note of how the TSU and Black Hand increased their troop numbers and "moved back into Torontia."

To do that they would have had to confer with the McKagan Occupational Division. Either that or sneak across the heavily sealed border (that I posted about a while ago) or fight their way in; which leaves room for some RP'ing that HAS to be done. Because, just like with Kahanistan posting about moving troops into Western Torontia, the MOD isn't going to allow big armies to just walk into Western Torontia.

Everyone needs to adapt to the fact that Western Torontia is now under the influence of a paranoid General who wants to know about every FLY that crosses the border.

What are you talking about? And you are just like Amestria. Where was the dispute when it was posted way back o nthe first page?

I didn't see it "way back on the first page."

Sorry, but i'd really like to have a non "my soldiers appear here and you don't know it21!11hahaha!" RP.

Well I used the miracle of fluid time to infiltrate a soldier or two every couple of days..I will however, post a couple trying to cross in the near future and getting caught if you would like.

The TSU began crossing right at the end of the Amestria occuipation, why in the heck did they make a "I have returned" speech if they hadn't returned, I just posted what did return.

The TSU began crossing right at the end of the Amestria occuipation, why in the heck did they make a "I have returned" speech if they hadn't returned, I just posted what did return. And GREAT PR for the TSU about the General. "Nation paralyzed in grip of mad general!" sound like a good headline.

Ok, I understand, I think. However, isn't 50,000 a little too many? I mean, how does a political party support that many soldiers? Maybe 10,000, but 50,000 seems too generic.

On the note of the borders, no, it's not like that. I opened the borders between EASTERN and WESTERN Torontia. That's getting a united Torontia. I CLOSED the borders AROUND Western Torontia. That's to the South, and to the North. It's like if the a nation built an interstate highway system to encourage travel inside itself, but at the same time stepped up patroling its own borders.

The Amestrian State does not believe sovereignty or legitimacy comes from the populace. The Amestrian State believes that both sovereignty and legitimacy comes from institutions (a big difference).

And what are institutions composed of, Ames? Oh, that's right: people. I fail to see how non-sovereign persons can magically, when grouped together under the aegis of these "institutions," can make up a sovereign political entity that even approaches a democracy.

1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Number three being the key definition up there.

An arrangement where the people are not sovereign, but the institutions that are comprised of the people are sovereign (e.g. the government), is possible, I will admit.

We call that "fascism."

A political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism).

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh here, but I've had to deal with this subject with more than one crackpot dictator in the past, and this is my usual style when speaking on the subject.

Conclusion: Amestria is not really a liberal democracy (in order to be a democracy, the common people, not certain "institutions," must be sovereign), but rather a pseudo-fascist state posing as a liberal democracy. Note that I am not accusing you of Naziism; fascist =/= Nazi. The Nazis, while they were fascists, perverted fascism with their own insane ideologies.

Naturally, you do not exhibit all the characteristics common to the fascist states of the 1940s (use of secret police, rule through terror, etc.), but the fact that the people are not sovereign is a huge strike against your claim of democracy in any form, and really leaves fascism as the closest thing to your government. Though I'm not even really sure if your arrangement could even be classified (maybe some sort of authoritarian oligarchy, or despotism?).

Ok, I understand, I think. However, isn't 50,000 a little too many? I mean, how does a political party support that many soldiers? Maybe 10,000, but 50,000 seems too generic.



The army itself is around 10,000, the other 40,000 are TSU followers in general. And like Saint Fedski said all armies have to have a ton of Logistics as their army, that's what's most of the TSU Army is made up of. So basicly the standing amount of forces is around 5,000. And on how'd they get the funding? The Black Hand is very rich. So
5,000 TSU main forces
+5,000. Black Hand
= 10,000 Full time Soldiers in the TSU
+20,000 Emergency Guard.

The army itself is around 10,000, the other 40,000 are TSU followers in general. And like Saint Fedski said all armies have to have a ton of Logistics as their army, that's what's most of the TSU Army is made up of. So basicly the standing amount of forces is around 5,000. And on how'd they get the funding? The Black Hand is very rich. So
5,000 TSU main forces
+5,000. Black Hand
= 10,000 Full time Soldiers in the TSU
+20,000 Emergency Guard.

Ok, I understand this now. Thanks for clarifying, it all works.

-snip-

What kind of political theories class are YOU taking? :p

What kind of political theories class are YOU taking? :p

A.P. U.S. History. :p

So, effectively, none. But next year, I'm planning on taking a year of A.P. Government and Politics for one period, a semester of Sociology and a semester of Psychology another period, and possibly Economics.

Intelligence analysts have to be well-rounded. :p

A.P. U.S. History. :p

So, effectively, none. But next year, I'm planning on taking a year of A.P. Government and Politics for one period, a semester of Sociology and a semester of Psychology another period, and possibly Economics.

Intelligence analysts have to be well-rounded. :p

I think i've got U.S. History on the chart for like my senior year, and Economics for my junior. I've also got phychology sometime, too, as do I sociology.

We had to make a schedule for our entier high school careers in the 8th grade, i've basically got everything on that list sometime.

OOC:About the recent post.

Actually the TSU is more of a Liberal Democratic Socialists group. They disagree with pure communism also, (Remember Jack Norton, the Torontia created leader of the Communist Gay and Lesbian party? Didn't work out well)

This meeting between everyone will be interesting to say the least.

On the note of the borders, no, it's not like that. I opened the borders between EASTERN and WESTERN Torontia. That's getting a united Torontia. I CLOSED the borders AROUND Western Torontia. That's to the South, and to the North. It's like if the a nation built an interstate highway system to encourage travel inside itself, but at the same time stepped up patroling its own borders.

All the borders are still closed. None have been opened (only the TPG can do that).

Question: The Lone Alliance made a note of how the TSU and Black Hand increased their troop numbers and "moved back into Torontia."

To do that they would have had to confer with the McKagan Occupational Division. Either that or sneak across the heavily sealed border (that I posted about a while ago) or fight their way in; which leaves room for some RP'ing that HAS to be done. Because, just like with Kahanistan posting about moving troops into Western Torontia, the MOD isn't going to allow big armies to just walk into Western Torontia.

Everyone needs to adapt to the fact that Western Torontia is now under the influence of a paranoid General who wants to know about every FLY that crosses the border.

The borders are controled by the TPG (Mckagan does not have the troops to control Western Torontia's borders).

Hehe.. always looking for a good fight, aren't you Southeast Asia?

Fortunately, though, I can see absolutely no reason for my troops to have to face off against Sniper Country's. Even less reason then a war against the SWC.
No. Always looking for a good read. :p

And what are institutions composed of, Ames? Oh, that's right: people. I fail to see how non-sovereign persons can magically, when grouped together under the aegis of these "institutions," can make up a sovereign political entity that even approaches a democracy.


A sovereign institution is a public entity that governs/rules, has authority in the areas where it governs, and is capable of fighting off challenges and threats to its sovereignty (such as the TPG fighting off the TPLA in BC or the U.S. Secret Service preventing counter fitting).

An institution being sovereign however does not make it benevolent. You probably could broaden the definition with institutions which behave lawfully (those that follow a rule of law, i.e. their own procedures and self-limitations), institutions which do not behave lawfully (the leader of the opposition party vanishes one night and is never seen again, in other words institutions were the power is perpetually arbitrary) and those in between. You could also divide an institution into somewhat democratic and undemocratic institutions.

Keep in mind a democratic institution is not necessarily better then an undemocratic institution, as institutions often have complex and diverse functions. For example, a military, court system or National reserve system all work better when they are undemocratic but accountable in someway to a central democratic institution, while a Parliament/Congress works best when admission is by democratic means (within limits) and functions at its best when it has an undemocratic structure (procedures in place to prevent simple majority rule). One thing one should consider is that all institutions have some undemocratic elements.

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether an institution is more democratic then undemocratic and vice a versa, other times it is dead obvious (such as in the case of the former “President for Life” Vader Tanakis).



Conclusion: Amestria is not really a liberal democracy (in order to be a democracy, the common people, not certain "institutions," must be sovereign), but rather a pseudo-fascist state posing as a liberal democracy. Note that I am not accusing you of Naziism; fascist =/= Nazi. The Nazis, while they were fascists, perverted fascism with their own insane ideologies.

Naturally, you do not exhibit all the characteristics common to the fascist states of the 1940s (use of secret police, rule through terror, etc.), but the fact that the people are not sovereign is a huge strike against your claim of democracy in any form, and really leaves fascism as the closest thing to your government. Though I'm not even really sure if your arrangement could even be classified (maybe some sort of authoritarian oligarchy, or despotism?).

The problem with that conclusion is Amestria's actual structure. Amestria has a constitution, an elected Parliament (with three major parties, two moderate sized parties, and about a dozen smaller parties), an elected President, a parliamentary/presidential system of government, an independent court system, the rule of law, a free press, a government that does not engage in profit making (self enrichment), and impressive civil/personal liberties. So I highly doubt you can classify Amestria as a despotism, authoritarian oligarchy, or fascist state...

snip
TLA, in speaking of socialism and state-owned stuff vs. privatization, you have TGs!

Replied!

Someone needs to take it easy... (and I was talking about Amestria's democracy, not Western Torontia's).
I am taking it easy, I simply don't agree with your argument. I am also talking about Amestria's government, and like it or not the TPG illustrates many important things about your government. The TPG is not a Torontian institution, it was not created by the Torontians, with the consent of Torontians. It was, instead, created by a foreign government completely undemocratically. The TPG is simply an Imperial Parliament of Amestria, since its very existance owes itself not to the will of the Torontians but to the excersise of sovereignty of your government over its occupied territiories.

The TPG in the meantime would like to keep its hold on power.
So it arbitrarily censors broadcasts...

I fail to see how argueing OOC about its exact legal definition helps anything.
Helps let everyone know where they stand. For example, now you know what the High Ecclesiarchy thinks of your "liberal democracy" which by its own admission does not derive the right to rule from the populous, but from itself.

I hope you arn't saying that my Suprainister is a leader with saying that having a president for life is dictatorial, a Suprainister is not always genetic, for example at the turn of the 20th century Otto Greivan's son was proven to not have the qualities and virtues that would have allowed him to become the next Suprainister, my system is very much checks and balances, and while it lacks parties it also lacks sleeze and lies, instead candidates are all funded equally by the state and are elected on their abilities and what they say they will do (and they do have to carry out those promises otherwise they will simply not be elected next time round)

Helps let everyone know where they stand. For example, now you know what the High Ecclesiarchy thinks of your "liberal democracy" which by its own admission does not derive the right to rule from the populous, but from itself.

You did not read my post on institutions did you...

I hope you arn't saying that my Suprainister is a leader with saying that having a president for life is dictatorial, a Suprainister is not always genetic, for example at the turn of the 20th century Otto Greivan's son was proven to not have the qualities and virtues that would have allowed him to become the next Suprainister, my system is very much checks and balances, and while it lacks parties it also lacks sleeze and lies, instead candidates are all funded equally by the state and are elected on their abilities and what they say they will do (and they do have to carry out those promises otherwise they will simply not be elected next time round)

I do not know enough about the Novacom government IC or OOC to make any judgement IC or OOC.

Novacom, I wonder if that question was directed to me?

The High Ecclesiarchy does not believe that governmental systems different from its own are necessarily "wrong" or "bad" or dictatorial. Each nation and people is unique, and must decide for itself its own system of government. The concept of the sovereignty of nations implies that all States should be able to determine their own government without Imperialistic interference from foreign powers. For what it’s worth, the High Ecclesiarchy doesn’t have a problem with the governmental systems of any of its allies.

Amestria's case is completely different. They occupied a foreign nation and imposed their institution on a different people, without their consent. That is not democratic at all. That's Imperialistic.

You did not read my post on institutions did you...
I did.

We're getting off track, so I'll agree to leave the rest of this argument for a later IC opportunity, if it ever becomes relevant.

I intend to keep it that way for a while yet, I'd rather reveal some other mysteries first and showcase a lot more wierdness first, though I am set to reveal another one of my major cities names very soon hehe.

It wasn't Xirnium, though I do consider myself to have a purer form of Democracy than what exists in the world today.

It wasn't Xirnium, though I do consider myself to have a purer form of Democracy than what exists in the world today.
In that case I look forward to hearing your delegates' arguments for a more perfect Torontian government at the Constitutional Convention.

Mckagan is having computor problems, he can't keep his computer on for no more then ten minutes before it shuts down on its own. He has asked that we hold off on posting (besides my responses to the three posts he made yesterday) until Tuesday (when his computer will be fixed).

I'm sure though he doesn't mean to put on hold the meeting between Yallak Xirniuym and myself?

Sounds like he has sasser or that one from not so long ago.

I'm sure though he doesn't mean to put on hold the meeting between Yallak Xirniuym and myself?


No, I don't think so...but perhaps for his sake you can give the meeting its own thread so as not to confuse the main thread (which is more about macro matters).

Perhaps, I'll leave it up to Xirnium since he is at least from an OOC point of view the chairman of it :P

It wasn't Xirnium, though I do consider myself to have a purer form of Democracy than what exists in the world today.

Haha - i think that about my government too.

Yallak, your government system reminds me of Green Sun's (IC and OOC friend of Willink, a former SWC member). And as for Amestria, your government's incumbent party reminds me of the Liberal Imperialism ideology as I have mentioned before in the first OOC thread. Here's the link to it's description. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402730)

And as for Amestria, your government's incumbent party reminds me of the Liberal Imperialism ideology as I have mentioned before in the first OOC thread. Here's the link to it's description. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402730)

Amestria does not have an "incumbent party" it has a ruling coalition made up of two main parties (Socialists and the Social Democrats) and one or two minor parties. The Social Democrats are considered the "ruling party" as they hold the Prime Ministers position and President.

I don't have political parties, they are considered divisve and thought to split the people, instead the candidates campaigns are funded by the state and they are given a portfolio of Campaign assisstants and choose from them.

ICly though My Government isn't particularly bothered about the governmental form of others, they stay true to their own code of honour and integrity, something which like many things a mystery to the outside world.

Amestria does not have an "incumbent party" it has a ruling coalition made up of two main parties (Socialists and the Social Democrats) and one or two minor parties. The Social Democrats are considered the "ruling party" as they hold the Prime Ministers position and President.
Damn it, when I hear the word 'President' used as a title in a democratic country, I often assume it's country uses the presidential system. :headbang:

I often assume it's country uses the presidential system. :headbang:
By that you mean the Washington system, right?

And, though I think I've made this clear before, the High Ecclesiarchy is a type Westminster parliament. That means the senior members of the Executive are appointed by and members of the legislature. Usually, the party or coalition with the most seats in the High Ecclesiarchy elects its leadership to Cabinet.

Thank you for correcting me Xirnium. The Washington Presidential System. And my government (despite my character's American influences, another sign that my character is an older version of myself as a politician, which is a job I'm considering of taking in the future) also uses the Westminster parliamentary system, just that the Prime Minister is both Head of State and Government.

just that the Prime Minister is both Head of State and Government.
It's curious that you mention this, because I'm currently debating whom should be the Head of State of Holy Xirnium (since the deposing of the God-Emperor). The Head of State really wouldn't have any real powers anyway (since parliament is supreme in Holy Xirnium, another Westminster notion).

The Chief Minister receives a 21-gun salute when abroad, so I suppose that the argument can be made that he is the Head of State, or perhaps the High Ecclesiarchy as a whole is (since it assents to its own legislation). Maybe I can make the Chief Justice Head of State (since he or she swears in members of parliament), but I'm worried that might affect judicial independence. Maybe I should just leave it ambigious?

By constitution (I've talked to Pacitalia to ask for his permission to use his and modify it to my nation's uses...slightly), Neo (whom wrote it himself with the assistance of many others) is Head of State and Government.

Holy Xirnium has no written Constitution. Like the UK parliament, its Constitution is a collection of case law, common law doctrines, constitutional conventions and several documents of higher statute law, which include treaties, bills of rights, and entrenched Acts.

I think I'll leave Holy Xirnium's government without a clearly defined "Head of State". The exact title and definition of the office of Head of State will remain vague (and not overly important, since parliament is sovereign). If anything, the High Ecclesiarhcy is the Head of State.

Yallak, your government system reminds me of Green Sun's (IC and OOC friend of Willink, a former SWC member).

Well, how fitting then as Green Sun was one of my first allies.

Hal. as dramatic as your President landing in Seattle might seem, it is impossible as the whole airport was destroyed by Yallak (several hundred cruise missiles) and never rebuilt.

On Mckagans Status

Everyone, the main RP will have to remain on hold until Tursday, Mckagan just TGed me saying his computor is still out and he has RL issues. Tursday is the soonest he can get everything fixed.

I assume we can still RP our delegates going to the convention (and perhaps meeting each other before the start) but it can't start until Mckagan gets back...

However I have several Technopoli Mechnicians, they are my finest and they do their job very well, and a temporary landing area can be set up indeed very quickly, while myself Yallak and Xirnium wrangle over details, then the true rebuilding can begin.

Hal. as dramatic as your President landing in Seattle might seem, it is impossible as the whole airport was destroyed by Yallak (several hundred cruise missiles) and never rebuilt.

Although the airport was destroyed during the Saint Fedski occupation, repairing runways is a fairly straightforward thing to do and temporary control towers and the like can quikcly be erected to take over the functions of those destroyed.

I see no problem with saying that the airport has been made functional since the begining of the Xirniumite occupation.

Although the airport was destroyed during the Saint Fedski occupation, repairing runways is a fairly straightforward thing to do and temporary control towers and the like can quikcly be erected to take over the functions of those destroyed.

I see no problem with saying that the airport has been made functional since the begining of the Xirniumite occupation.

Ok, for infrequent traffic, but nothing commercial until major repairs are done.

Ok, for infrequent traffic, but nothing commercial until major repairs are done.
Just to make it clear, major repairs are currently being made by private Xirniumite companies to all Torontian infrastructure damaged or requiring enhancment.

Just to make it clear, major repairs are currently being made by private Xirniumite companies to all Torontian infrastructure damaged or requiring enhancment.

In Eastern Torontia only... In Western Torontia it is being done by the TPG (not that there are that many areas in need of repairs outside of BC).

SEA, first of all, there is a OOC thread, use it.

Second, we will not be begining the Convention proper until Mckagan gets back, so you might as well make an arrival post.

I just deleted the post. I'll wait to for McKagan's return then I'll do it with a little fluid time here and there.

SEA I personally don't have any problems with you assuming your delegation got there rather then RPing it. However, the current consensus (I believe) from the others in this RP appears to be that we should wait to RP the Convention proper until Thursday.

Waaait a minute... as you probably noticed I didn't see Novacom's post until after I made mine, let me just read it to figure out what happened.

I just assumed that it was the typical noises of the crowd, Sara/Gilda bumped into some people on the way... The hallway to the parlor I am guessing is fairly crowded...

I was under the impression you 2 were hovering around outside, as far as I know the only people out there are security personellwith delegates having already entered instead of chuntering away outside, you never know Kraven may have Snipers around :p

I was under the impression you 2 were hovering around outside, as far as I know the only people out there are security personellwith delegates having already entered instead of chuntering away outside, you never know Kraven may have Snipers around :p

They are inside the hallway and never set foot outside. They are on there way/arrived at a private room for drinks...

When you mentioned Cold, i assumed you were outside...

When you mentioned Cold, i assumed you were outside...

Read the rest...They never stepped foot outside...

"It is rather chilly out, being winter and all...winds blowing down from the north.

That is why I thought you were outside.

I was under the impression you 2 were hovering around outside, as far as I know the only people out there are security personellwith delegates having already entered instead of chuntering away outside, you never know Kraven may have Snipers around :p
The Admiralty (which is very large) also opens up onto large outdoor courtyards and the like, which is where my Grand Cardinal suggested they go. I doubt a Kraven sniper would be running around in there :D (unless, you know, he managed to get into the Admiralty building and then into the courtyard, all the while eluding capture.

Anyway, I'm a little unclear about who is saying what to whom, so forgive me if my response is a little unclear.

That is why I thought you were outside.

Never wrote that they went outside, Liscel just came in after all and was describing the wheater prior to entering the building...

Xirnium, doesn't the TPG and the Amestrian State so believe in the article in the link?

Liberal Imperialism Here's the link to it's description. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402730)

Oh beleive me Xirnium, with all the Gold Skull Enforcers I have swarming round the building and the Hijir to hand, the place could hold out against a small army for a while never mind snipers, however they may have infiltrated as staff, not even my security is perfect just very stringent.

SEA, Amestria is not Liberal Imperialist, although there are some similarities.

Xirnium, can you post your response to Sara's remarks...?

Xirnium, can you post your response to Sara's remarks...?
I'm working on it, patience...

Well, what do you say about Amestria being Liberal Imperialist Xirnium?

Well, what do you say about Amestria being Liberal Imperialist Xirnium?

I'd say definately not.

Well, what do you say about Amestria being Liberal Imperialist Xirnium?
No I think not. Not by the definition offered in the link and not by the definition implied by the term.

Hal, please respond to my TGs.

The borders are controled by the TPG (Mckagan does not have the troops to control Western Torontia's borders).

Bullshit, Amestria, bullshit.

I'm not allowing you to say how many troops I have to have to be able to do certain things. McKagan Light Security Brigades can control a population better than a government. Please, don't make me fight you on this, but the IMA can control Western Torontia the exact same as the TPG.

The Lone Alliance: Just a heads up, I don't know if you're trying to just discredit the TLP ICly, or if you really don't know; but the TLP isn't being like Pat Robertson and saying that "god" is "punishing" Torontia or anything. They blame various factions fighting over religion. The TLP is, by namesake, quite secular.

Xirnium: Let's start moving in Torontia. I'm going to make a post in just a second where we can start integrating the nation.

I'm ready when you are.

Well, I need to get Amestria to answer a few things for President Burns first, then we can start.

Oh, and I'm preparing to watch IMAF and Kraven destroy each other over Torontia. It's a really stupid war he's about to get himself into, IMO.

Well, I need to get Amestria to answer a few things for President Burns first, then we can start.

Oh, and I'm preparing to watch IMAF and Kraven destroy each other over Torontia. It's a really stupid war he's about to get himself into, IMO.

Especially because I have a good half of the entire Dororsyforce/Airgtheforce (army) waiting for this to in fucking Saharistan.

Exactly, Tan. The SWC has a perfect track record against nations IDENTICAL in political and social layout to Kraven.

Saharistan
Rovonia
Algeristan
Arabanistan
Torontia

All of those nations were the exact same way.

They are now SWC controled or occupied in some way.

TKC would be best to get involved politically or with Special Forces, but a full scale invasion isn't good for anyone.

but a full scale invasion isn't good for anyone.
Not necessarily, it does open up some nice possibilities for ways to wipe out the TPG. For example, purposefully wasting the bulk of the TPG military in poorly planned, coordinated or supported counteroffensives that bleed white the Torontian military.

Then again, the TPG was going to dissolve itself peacefully, so the invasion will likely only cause suffering.

Not necessarily, it does open up some nice possibilities for ways to wipe out the TPG. For example, purposefully wasting the bulk of the TPG military in poorly planned, coordinated or supported counteroffensives that bleed white the Torontian military.

Yeah, if Kraven launches an offensive (not an invasion) against the TPG and its military, but that could be done WITHOUT an invasion. He could land Special Forces to attack the TPG Military and government, or even try to run a submarine all the way up to the coastline (which would be possible, no submarine protection zone is god) and pocket it with cruise missiles.

If he launches a full scale invasion, we all fight him, and we all lose things. That's not good. If he wants to go after the TPG, there are other ways to do it.

Xirnium, remind me are our forces in Western or Eastern Torontia?

I guess the TLA's half a million soldiers in Alaska is going to come in handy soon enough.

The Lone Alliance: Just a heads up, I don't know if you're trying to just discredit the TLP ICly, or if you really don't know; but the TLP isn't being like Pat Robertson and saying that "god" is "punishing" Torontia or anything. They blame various factions fighting over religion. The TLP is, by namesake, quite secular. No they're mocking the TLP because they seem to think that the only reason Torontia was so messed up was because it was being run by Pat Robertson personalities. It was more than just religous fanatics that ruined Torontia. And everyone who paid attention will know that.

Everyone needs to post their naval assests in Torontia.

PS: The TPG would not agree to suicidal assualts and in the event of a full blown invasion of Torontia would expect everyone else to pull their wait.

Novacom, I am going to make a two part post, one before your character interupted, one on Sara's response when he did enter.

Here is how things will be set up.

(Amestria)
Part One: Liscels reaction to Gilda
Part Two: Liscel reacts to the Novcanian

(Xirnium)
Part One: Gilda's reaction to Liscel
Part Two: Gilda's reaction to the Novacanian.

(Novacom): Reacts to both.

BTW: Novacom, you would have no information of value on the killings in BC, no information of worth.

Well because my naval forces were never a big thing, i'm basically just going to start fresh with what I have deployed. Wait for an IC reference post.

I still don't like the idea of Torontia being invaded. Kraven, you're going to have to WORK for that. The IMN won't be a pushover, and IMAF has 10,000 planes within range of Torontia and half the force can be there pretty quick.

I'm telling you, Special Forces are the way to go.

Everyone, you have probably noticed I have quite a few main posts to respond to (posted by Mckagan) so I would appriciate if you did not post anymore on the Battle thread till I have responded. Thank you.

Hal, the meeting will already have been interupted, so your people will get nothing...

Will people please let me respond to Xirnium and Novacom...

Xirnium, remind me are our forces in Western or Eastern Torontia?
East.. we're good.

Amestria, are the TPG politicians also synthesized from Full Metal Alchemist?

Amestria, are the TPG politicians also synthesized from Full Metal Alchemist?

No, one is a complete creation of mine, one is synthesized from Raxaphone, and the other is synthesized from Love Hina.

in the event of a full blown invasion of Torontia would expect everyone else to pull their wait.
I should point out that what the TPG expects and what the High Ecclesiarchy does are not likely to be the same.

Xirnium, how does my post plan sound:

Novacom, I am going to make a two part post, one before your character interupted, one on Sara's response when he did enter.

Here is how things will be set up.

(Amestria)
Part One: Liscels reaction to Gilda
Part Two: Liscel reacts to the Novcanian

(Xirnium)
Part One: Gilda's reaction to Liscel
Part Two: Gilda's reaction to the Novacanian.

(Novacom): Reacts to both.

Amestrian and Xirnium react to Novacom, then Hal's minions show up.

Also, TG

Anybody that has taken a political beating from the High Ecclesiarchy should know that. And is Burns an original creation of yours, Amestria

I do NOT understand how The Kraven Corporation is going to "invade" Torontia to fight only the TPG. If you start attacking the infrastructure, the IMA is going to be pissed. If you carpet bomb, the IMA will be pissed. As far as I'm concerned, unless you want a war with everyone, SpecOps are you way to go.

Now what I COULD see would be TKC backing an IMA/Xirnium overthrow of the TPG, but that's a little extreme. I'm just having major issues putting this together.

A naval invasion is downright laughable at this point because of the way the coastline has been plugged up, and you'd have to go through the pride of the McKagan military to even get close to Torontia in the air.

Special Forces allow you to influence and mold things to your liking: an invasion, at this point, doesn't make sense.

Xirnium, how does my post plan sound
There are no complaints from me.

There are no complaints from me.

Okay then, we will go with it.

I do NOT understand how The Kraven Corporation is going to "invade" Torontia to fight only the TPG. If you start attacking the infrastructure, the IMA is going to be pissed. If you carpet bomb, the IMA will be pissed. As far as I'm concerned, unless you want a war with everyone, SpecOps are you way to go.

Now what I COULD see would be TKC backing an IMA/Xirnium overthrow of the TPG, but that's a little extreme. I'm just having major issues putting this together.
I agree with you, I'm under no illusion that an invasion of West Torontia will somehow not involve the IMA. What I meant was that, since it is inevitable (I don't think Kraven plans on canceling it, could be wrong), there is no reason why I at least (but also others) couldn't exploit it to some advantage.

Amestria, TG replied to.

I agree with you, I'm under no illusion that an invasion of West Torontia will somehow not involve the IMA. What I meant was that, since it is inevitable (I don't think Kraven plans on canceling it, could be wrong), there is no reason why I at least (but also others) couldn't exploit it to some advantage.


I fail to see how much of an advantage is left after McKagan declares control over Torontia and the SWC invades TKC. Sure, the TPG is gone, but that can be worked out SO much easier.

McKagan, AMF is engaging Kraven, and they wanted a one-on-one rp. No Kraven invasion for you.

Sure, the TPG is gone, but that can be worked out SO much easier.
Oh I agree, it definitely could have been worked out much easier. The High Ecclesiarchy does think that war is an important extension of policy, but often an unpredictable and crude one, and prefers more sophisticated methods. What I mean is it isn't as if we can exactly reason with Kraven, their leader is insane (in a logical sort of way). We'd need to make the best of a bad situation.

McKagan, AMF is engaging Kraven, and they wanted a one-on-one rp. No Kraven invasion for you.

What the fuck are you talking about? If Kraven gets involved in this RP, then I am totally within my rights to go after Kraven. I'm not getting fucking involved in the "I can attack you here but you can't do anything to my homeland!" RP's.

If you fuck with a McKagan colony, it is the exact same thing as attacking the McKagan homeland. Deal with it, because I'm not RP'ing with someone who basically tells me OOCly that their homeland is immune to the RP.

:)

Oh I agree, it definitely could have been worked out much easier. The High Ecclesiarchy does think that war is an important extension of policy, but often an unpredictable and crude one, and prefers more sophisticated methods. What I mean is it isn't as if we can exactly reason with Kraven, their leader is insane (in a logical sort of way). We'd need to make the best of a bad situation.

We can reason with Kraven OOCly.

ICly, I'd just sick Hal's president on him... :p

Does not Yallak have over 1000 warships in Torontian waters...

Kravens invasion will more likely then not be a flash in a pan.

We can reason with Kraven OOCly.
Or, there's always that way...

Does not Yallak have over 1000 warships in Torontian waters...

Kravens invasion will more likely then not be a flash in a pan.

That's what I meant by "the coastline has been plugged up."

Everyone has naval forces there. Not only does Kraven have to MATCH those forces, he has to BEAT those forces to get to shore.

This is wonderful, I get to watch Kraven get defeated and later
I have the WACI elite armies get Nuked. Such a wonderful time!

PS
Brovan has arrived.

What the fuck are you talking about? If Kraven gets involved in this RP, then I am totally within my rights to go after Kraven. I'm not getting fucking involved in the "I can attack you here but you can't do anything to my homeland!" RP's.

If you fuck with a McKagan colony, it is the exact same thing as attacking the McKagan homeland. Deal with it, because I'm not RP'ing with someone who basically tells me OOCly that their homeland is immune to the RP.

I'm saying that the rp between AMF and Kraven is closed. But you can invade Concremo and liberate it, as it's an invite rp.

And same here, TLA...brilliant!

Does not Yallak have over 1000 warships in Torontian waters...

Kravens invasion will more likely then not be a flash in a pan.

1400 - although i was just about to send them off to Kahanistan to destroy MassPwnage - this is a problem - is Kraven deffinately going to get involved - i would think his hands were full with AMF.

You might not want to send them all in... 300 - 600 should be fine, they called godmode on me for 500. Not wanting an OOC dispute with my allies, I cut it down, a "sacrifice for the RP," as they framed it, and I'm paying for it now.

300 ships deployed still means 1,100 in Torontia, more than enough to defeat a Kraven warfleet.

The Lone Alliance has around 100 Ships, but they are of the light fast Raider type ships. The TSU has around 8 Patrol Boats.

I have no naval assets. But then again, if Yallak were so stupid as to give me a damn fine reason, he doesn't want a few Super Dreadnaught Battle Fleet Groups breathing down his neck, does he?

Novacom: TG

I think my Naval Assets are ok, aren't they?

They're working under the cover of IMAF anyway, so it's not like they'd do much anyway.

As you all know, I have been strapped for time, with classes starting and the CC character RPing, so I still have not finished the response to Mckagans six posts on the Battle of Torontia thread...

I would like everyone to refrain from posting on the main Torontia thread until I have responded (Kraven that includes you as well).

I would also like to suggest we slow down or pause the main Torontian RP thread while we procede with the Convention RP...

Agreed with Amestria.

In speaking of characters and naval assets, what ideas did you use to make up your delegations' personalities and other attributes? My ambassador to The Lone Alliance is based off a (used to be mutually hated, still mutually respected, narcisstic) classmate of mine. What about your characters, people? And where does your navy take ranking in your military? Top? Bottom? Middle? Mine's in the middle. My armor and it's air support take the spotlight.

I have no naval assets. But then again, if Yallak were so stupid as to give me a damn fine reason, he doesn't want a few Super Dreadnaught Battle Fleet Groups breathing down his neck, does he?

My battleships would be more than capable of destroying dreadnaughts and their escorts. And you would be hard pressed to find a reason to go to war with me anyway.

I would also like to suggest we slow down or pause the main Torontian RP thread while we procede with the Convention RP...

Agreed too

Then again, you haven't seen much of me in action, and you don't know my military tactics, do you?

If we ever went to war which i highly doubt: i would learn what i needed about your strategies soon enough. I also doubt you would know mine - and i wouldn't use Torontia or the Xirnium war to try and work it out.

Of course I wouldn't. You simply crushed Torontia and other forms of Xirnium's enemies via sheer numbers. :rolleyes:

In Torontia yes - but against Kraven our naval forces were matched.

You simply crushed Torontia and other forms of Xirnium's enemies via sheer numbers.
Tactics more sophisticated then human wave charges were used by all sides in the Xirnium War...

Exactly. That's why I'm looking forward to writing my own version of Czardas "Complete Invaders' Guide to [insertnationnamehere]".

Ok, Although IC The Corporations logic is undeniable, (no matter how insane it might seem to an outsider) I've decided the Special Ops one is the best, The Civilian Aircraft idea is the most plausable, However

The Invasion will go ahead at a later date.... I'll edit my invasion post to better fit the "mood" of the up and comming story line.

Yallak: Yes I do have a lot on my plate, But the ultimate goal of Automagfreek and the ISAF is to Utterly annihilate Kraven, The further TKC spreads like a Virus the Harder it will be for them to utterly Destroy me, I will by the end of the Conflict have bled them dry, making their Victory seem more like a Defeat...

and even then... I'm not truely Dead....

Yallak: Yes I do have a lot on my plate, But the ultimate goal of Automagfreek and the ISAF is to Utterly annihilate Kraven, The further TKC spreads like a Virus the Harder it will be for them to utterly Destroy me, I will by the end of the Conflict have bled them dry, making their Victory seem more like a Defeat...



Reminds me of how the US had to do Island hopping battles in World War 2 before they could even get close to attacking Japan. You're forcing them to divert forces to clear out strongholds. Clever.

Reminds me of how the US had to do Island hopping battles in World War 2 before they could even get close to attacking Japan. You're forcing them to divert forces to clear out strongholds. Clever.

Im not just a Pretty Crack pot dicator :)

Yallak: Yes I do have a lot on my plate, But the ultimate goal of Automagfreek and the ISAF is to Utterly annihilate Kraven, The further TKC spreads like a Virus the Harder it will be for them to utterly Destroy me, I will by the end of the Conflict have bled them dry, making their Victory seem more like a Defeat...

and even then... I'm not truely Dead....

Anything less from you would have been dissappointing Kraven.

I realise that some people have indicated they would like to slow down the RP, so do we want to just let the Constitutional Convention thread cruise along as it is for the moment, or should we move on to the convention proper?

I want Liscel and Clo'e to have a "nice" private (uninterrupted) talk with General Levitt, so I would like to wait to begin the convention proper...

Im not just a Pretty Crack pot dicator :)

I'll hand it to you: You do know how to fight a long term war for survival. Our mutual friend (the Torontian Player) has major issues with that. The SWC controls something like 8 of his nations, because I have never ONCE seen him go on the offensive. He always sat behind his defenses, which got knocked down. You've spread yourself out so well it'll be a real bitch to kill everything.

That said, I think that if you threw major assets at Torontia, it would eventually help the people trying to invade you, since I can't see a major invasion being sucessful.

I thankyou all... *takes a Bow*

in the words of Xirnium

"You are truely Evil"

however his best quote I lost :(

however his best quote I lost :(
Was that the one about the Kraven Corporation being a cancer?

By the way I'll be a little busy, Kravania\Torontia decided to start yet another stupid war, this time against me. If someone would offer help it'll go much faster.

Just to make it clear to everyone, posts 100 through 113 (where Sara and Levitt are talking in an isolated corner of the gardens) are secret IC... No one overheard or saw anything.

I am ignoring that "Light" having any effect on my characters.

Reasons it is a godmod

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10329242&postcount=68

1. OOC wise, Novacom never got the opinions of the other players whether it was appropriate for the Torontian RP.

2. IC wise, they admirals forces just appeared out of nowhere.

3. IC wise, none of the players were given a chance to detect of stop those forces, they just came out of thin air.

4. Novacom never RPed them (the evil raiders) entering Torontia.

5. The main thread is paused.

I am ignoring the terrorist attacks.

Novacom, I'm ignoring you and your recent actions because:


To my knowlege, you've got no troops in Torontia (Not sure, at that.)
You never RP'd a terrorist faction setting up in Torontia.
You never RP'd preparations for this attack, which would take alot of time.
You never gave anyone a chance to stop them, which, given how many troops McKagan has and the relations between Xirnium and McKagan, hits me especially close to home.
You have no REASON to attack other than someone pissing you off at a conference.


Basically, it's pretty lame and noobish. I'm outright ignoring your attacks and any future ones; and requesting everyone here do the same thing.

you have no problems there I am retconning all of my involvement until the conference started and considering it as if my involvement in it never happened, due to constant TG harrasment from Amestria.

Constant TG harrasment, what the hell are you talking about?

And you can't retocon because your delegates have been involved in almost every single event in the conference so far. We would have to restart.

Consider that the price of your obvious amusement at attempts to belittle and insult me via TG's.

I enjoy RPing, I do not enjoy being verbally assaulted at every possible corner by someone who is more than happy to do it via TG and by using such a method happily able to claim it didn't happen later on.

I'm not denying I sent you several TG's, but I had alot to say about several matters, and they were not abusive or insulting. You could have just told me not to send you any more if they got on your nerves...

That is precisely the Problem, I told you that I did not appreciate being insulted, and you replied stating you hadn't been insulting and then continued to insult me yet again.

I have almost finished deleting all the posts, I have of course mad backups in case anyone wants to consider today written off to a blue moon or something of that order.

I was not being insulting! And deleting all your posts on the convention, ruining it for everyone, because of real or imagened OOC problems with me is not very mature.

On the Contrary, removing the source of the problem will at the very least bring me peace of mind, I asked on numerous occasions for you to stop harrasing me, like I said before I have a copy of them, and if things do calm down I will post a copy of them back up, I will not however do so until then and that may not occur, I will be sleeping on the matter thoroughly fed up of today's debacle and adding this to the list of days I would remove if I had a time machine.

I said that further harrasment of me would produce this exact result, and I do not say anything without intent to carry it out.

Why not just leave them up in the first place...sigh...and you are just creating a bigger problem.

You never told me you felt "harrased" nor did you ever tell me to stop "harrasing" you or you would delete all your posts...

Because the way things were going could not go on, the issue of myself and you and our bickering cannot be allowed to go unsolved, it would cause bad blood and eventually destroy the RP, by doing this I am forcing things to a head so this issue can be dealt with and things run their course.

It may sound stupid and pathetic but it is best in the long run if these hostilities are dealt with.

In my opinion your unilateral actions in deleting your posts have destroyed this RP. No issues have been resolved by your actions, more problems have just been created.

Your constant harrasment is soley to blame, I do claim some responsibility though, I shouldn't have even read those TG's.

There was nothing insulting in them?!

You act like I sent you hate mail; I sent you legitimate OOC complaints, written politely. You are much too sensitive if you really took offense at that.

Hey guys, I'm in Whistler, Canada right now, flown all the way from Hong Kong. And I'm here for the next four days. I'm spending the most of my time outdoors, and I won't be able to post as often. I'll try and catch up though.

Half of those complaints were groundless the other were indeed legitiomate however couched in frequest shouts of I'll ignore this I'll ignore that, I responded to them with what I thought was a reasonable compromise and I get violent responses back, I think half of this wouldn't have gotten so bad if you had simply dropped your shouts of ignore.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I did not want you using my character in your little plans (my right, I have my own plans for her), I did not recognize the use of tech I felt FT, not MT or PMT...and I, like Mckagan, felt your admiral's forces appearing in Eastern Torontia without warning (IC or OOC) was a godmod.

As far as I was concerned those were not areas of compromise.

I send TG's to people all the time, and no one else in this RP has a freaking problem with it!

I will point out however that other people have indeed, I remember when you and SF were locking horns quite freely chucking out each other's TG's, what I suspect however is that since you no longer have a reason to have a go at him you have transfered your agression onto someone else, Apart from one issue which has been dealt with there have been no tech problems, and the Admiral's forces appearing has been removed as well, Admiral Kukonois may make an appearance, but not quite so suddenly again, I have plans for him elsewhere.

I prefer OOC Threads to TG's because it is out in the open, everyone sees it and because of that people will guard their toungues.

How dare you!!!

I did not say anything remotely insulting to you! Have the mods restore your posts so we can get on with things please (and a little device which in a flash of light can record the memories and persoality of a person is very future tech, inappriopriate for this RP).

(BTW: If you wanted me to use the OOC thread you could simply have asked, but no, you had to go all scorched earth on us).

Everyone, I have made a post on the convention thread. Let just continue it.

(Novacom: you could have just pulled out, you did not have to burn everything while doing so...sigh).

Novacom: I am asking you nicely to either have the mods restore your posts or repost them (it was not neccessary to delete your posts) so the story can continue without annoying gaps...

You could just have left the RP, but no, you had to erase all your posts out or what I assume is either spite or revenge.

Everyone else: Let us continue the RP as if there have been no disrutptions (any minor confusions will be filled in OOC).

How people can be this fucking childish about this game, i'll never understand. I know Amestria likes to send TG's, but he's never outright insulted anyone unless they were either being a dick or really annoying. It's just beyond words why someone would delete all their posts because someone doesn't want to have them godmod an army into one of the most fortified places on earth. It's not real, it's writing for fun and a great way to pass time in the evenings (or other open times.) There's no excuse for taking things so personally when the game doesn't go the way you want it to.

A great metaphorical image for this would be that of a four year old throwing a temper tantrum in a mall because his parents wouldn't buy him a Honda Civic.

Way to go.

What the hell has happened here? I'm gone for 8 hours and when I come back the whole thread has been nuked?!

Novacom, if you had OOC problems with Amestria couldn't you simply have left the RP, rather then deleteding all your posts when I made about ten different posts in reply?

Lets move forward with the RP and hope sleep does wonders for sanity.

In the meantime, Xirnium, I have made a new post on the convention thread.

The scene: The Convention Center, the Novacomians are gone, the sprinkaler and electric system sabotaged by them, roll camera!

Befor we continue let me say I've neither the patience nor the slightest desire to ignore posts to which I've already replied. If there is a "cardinal sin" to NS RPing it's deleting story. Novacom may have deleted his posts and left the thread, but as far as I am concerned everything happened.

I'm extremely disappointed about this.

I'm extremely disappointed about this.

We all are, but life is full of disappointments (although this was a particularly unnecessary one).

Everyone, one minor thing, everyone is wet, Gilda, the Amestrians, Levitt, Liscel, Kil... Everyone is soaked, the lights are out, and water is everywhere.

Befor we continue let me say I've neither the patience nor the slightest desire to ignore posts to which I've already replied.

I'm not sure if their is a misunderstand about what I was asking everyone to ignore earlier, but I wasn't asking you to. Some of the deleted posts (and they might even still be there in the Battle thread) are of a massive terrorist army just appear in Eastern Torontia. That's what I was talking about.

If there was no misunderstanding, simply ignore this response and allow me response to be "no one is asking you to."

If there is a "cardinal sin" to NS RPing it's deleting story.

Agreed.

For consistency and to anyone else who may come later and find this OOC debacle (like Yallak), I suggest we all adhere to the following:

Everything in the Convention thread happened (including Novacom's deleted posts)

Anything in the Occupation thread after my government's condemnation of Novacom did not happen (apparently some army spawned there, I've not had the time to read the thread yet).

Furthermore, everyone in the building is wet, the lights are out, and things are going haywire. The convention will have to be replanned IC...

I thought i'd add a character to the fray.

I'm going to bed now, so i'll answer anything that happens tommorow evening after school.

For consistency and to anyone else who may come later and find this OOC debacle (like Yallak), I suggest we all adhere to the following:

Everything in the Convention thread happened (including Novacom's deleted posts)

Anything in the Occupation thread after my government's condemnation of Novacom did not happen (apparently some army spawned there, I've not had the time to read the thread yet).

HOLY CRAP! I'm not even going to ask. Let's just continue on.

Hey Amestria - you might just want to delete the OOC post in the Torontia IC thread now that Novacom's posts are gone.

HOLY CRAP!
That was exactly my response when I came online a short while ago. This RP seems to attract childishness like no other...

Indeed. You'd think we be able to get through one RP without major dilemmas - but apparently not.

Hey Amestria - you might just want to delete the OOC post in the Torontia IC thread now that Novacom's posts are gone.

Done and done.

Xirnium and Kahanistan: You've got mail /TG's

Yallak: Replied.

cool - you've got another one

Replied again, sorry, I don't have all the information you wanted.

No worries it is enough - ive replied to you again too.

Oh and Xirnium i'll make an IC post now for your fleet to link up with mine.

Xirnium, TG...

Hal./Mckagan, can you use the OOC thread for OOC and delete your current OOC (lets avoid clutter).

Hal./Mckagan, can you use the OOC thread for OOC and delete your current OOC (lets avoid clutter).

haha i was just about to say that...

Repost from FTCC thread:

[OOC: Hal, how do you suggest I approach Kil? Should I have Spietz tell him he's part of a secret armed unit sent to protect McKagan interests, and just reassure him and his security that he "has his back." Or should I introduce him some other way?]

[OOC: Hell, you can RP him as a Kil fanboy for all I care. :p Do what you want...just don't be too crazy.]

Amestria, TG.

So Xirnium, when will the conference reconvene?

ICly it is supposed to reconvene the next day, OOCly we could start immediately. I am waiting to see what everyone else thinks.

Has normal Posting Resumed in the battle for Torontia thread? if it has then I will get on with the Plan straight away...

Not sure. As far as i know its still on holdish for the conference - i could be wrong though.

ICly it is supposed to reconvene the next day, OOCly we could start immediately. I am waiting to see what everyone else thinks.

Ah ok, I think Amestria at least is quite interested in delaying it for private talks with you.

Well... I mean I don't want to have everyone waiting for me and Amestria to finish holding talks if most people want to start the convention. Perhaps we could move onto the convention but hold the Amestrian talks in fluid time, maybe even in another thread?

What does everyone think?

Could do that.

My delegates left apparently unnoticed and are back in a military base so have not much to do until the conference convenes, but I don’t mind if people want to keep RPing on the time before the conference: I’ve quite enjoyed reading the story (especially your posts) that has transpired so far.

I’ve quite enjoyed reading the story (especially your posts) that has transpired so far.
Thanks, that's quite encouraging (I've still not quite mastered any of these characters yet, not even Gilda which I've posted the most on so far).

Anyway, about the conference proper, I guess we'll just hear what everyone else thinks and then decide, either way it's fine by me.

Thanks, that is encouraging (I've still not quite mastered any of these characters yet, not even Gilda which I've posted the most on so far).

Well it doesn't show - I love your characters (and not only because they bear that similar arrogance that i like to put into mine), they are very in depth.

Anyway, about the conference proper, I guess we'll just hear what everyone else thinks and then decide, either way it's fine by me.

Yep same here.

Ok, I don't feel like making an IC post, so just assume that the McKagan delegation moved to the hotel. Oh, and to clarify, MCID Agent Spietz is my drunk character. He's supposed to be acting that way. If you look back, he spent the majority of the time at the Kurora conference at a bar. He's going to act stupid throughout this...

I feel that the current leisurely pace of the Torontian RP should be maintained. I believe all are in agreement that the convention and the character interactions have been very enjoyable.

I also feel that starting the convention early while the private talks are still going on would be a mistake, as the private talks will determine heavily how the convention goes (behind the scenes factors).

I agree that it's turning into a nice character RP. I'd still like to get the main Torontian RP moving as quickly as possible, though.

I agree that it's turning into a nice character RP. I'd still like to get the main Torontian RP moving as quickly as possible, though.

If the main RP begins moving too quickly (and in too fluid a manner) it will detract and overshadow the events at the Convention... Perhaps a time frame could be worked out...

(BTW: Kraven, the main thread is at present still paused.)

Mckagan: TG

(BTW: Kraven, the main thread is at present still paused.)

Alright, No problem

If the main RP begins moving too quickly (and in too fluid a manner) it will detract and overshadow the events at the Convention... Perhaps a time frame could be worked out...

(BTW: Kraven, the main thread is at present still paused.)

That's what I'm afraid of.

That said, I believe that's why we should hurry the convention thread up (not rush it), so the other thread can start to move again.

What exactly is supposed to happen at the convention itself?

Oh, and for the record, I'm listing my official Torontian troop number at 250,000; since it was on the way up before you decided you needed more time and locked the thread. After the thread begins moving at it's fast pace again, it'll reach 500,000.

What exactly is supposed to happen at the convention itself?

The plan is to draft the basic principles of the national Torontia Constitution and determine the plan for how Torontian self-rule will come about.

I'm listing my official Torontian troop number at 250,000; since it was on the way up before you decided you needed more time and locked the thread. After the thread begins moving at it's fast pace again, it'll reach 500,000.

Your troop numbers are at 140,000, as we discussed, but they will rise to 250,000 shortly after the thread resumes (if they are allowed into Torontia, remember access is not a given).

What exactly is supposed to happen at the convention itself?


Besides what Xirnium has stated, there will be political manuvering, it will serve as a forum for improvement (or decline) in relations between the powers interested in Torontia, and with will help determine, among other things, what will be the future role of Foreign Soldiers in Torontia (which effects those planned troop shipments of yours, for example, what if it is decided to decrease the foreign pressence?).

Also, the future role Hal. plays in Torontia will be determined by what occurs officially and unofficially at the convention (which is why his President it there).

Your troop numbers are at 140,000, as we discussed, but they will rise to 250,000 shortly after the thread resumes (if they are allowed into Torontia, remember access is not a given).

The TPG, Xirnium, or the International Community do not determine when the IMA can boost its troop numbers. You're lucky i've even decided i'll notify the TPG before boosting them.

Also, i'd like to point out that ALL play shouldn't be suspended. How many troops did Amestria remove from Torontia in just like a week? Time IS still moving in the convention thread, so in 3-4 days (by the time the convention starts) McKagan troop numbers could be boosted several hundred thousand. There's no reason to suspend the thread totally, just new RP'ing towards actual storyline; not logistics.

The TPG, Xirnium, or the International Community do not determine when the IMA can boost its troop numbers. You're lucky i've even decided i'll notify the TPG before boosting them.

With that attitude your lucky if the TPG lets them in at all...(and if they show up without TPG premission they will be refused entry). And Yallak with its massive Navy (800 ships) pretty much controls what ships enter Torontia and leave Torontia...

As for the main RP, I already said it would jump a little this Sunday.

With that attitude your lucky if the TPG lets them in at all.


So the IMA is supposed to let the TPG determine its troop numbers but stay out of TPG affairs?

I smell bad things.

You're acting as if the IMA has no weight at all. That is not true, and I will not RP as if it is. The IMA is a self governing faction in Torontia, and does not need anyones approval to do certain things, especially within it's own ranks. Now, it's easier to have everyones approval, but then again, this wouldn't be Torontia if everyone agreed, would it? :)

(and if they show up without TPG premission they will be refused entry). And Yallak with its massive Navy (800 ships) pretty much controls what ships enter Torontia and leave Torontia...


The day a TPG soldier walks up to the commander of an IMAF Armed Transportation Wing and tells him he can't park his planes there and the IMAF commander doesn't laugh in his face will be the day I surrender Saharistan and all my other holdings to Halberdgardia.

If you want to make every little IMA move in Torontia a bitch, you can do it; but the outcome isn't the brightest possible future for this RP.

So the IMA is supposed to let the TPG determine its troop numbers but stay out of TPG affairs?

I smell bad things.

You're acting as if the IMA has no weight at all. That is not true, and I will not RP as if it is. The IMA is a self governing faction in Torontia, and does not need anyones approval to do certain things, especially within it's own ranks. Now, it's easier to have everyones approval, but then again, this wouldn't be Torontia if everyone agreed, would it? :)

The IMA has influence, it just can't do things without consulting the TPG leadership (and the IMA does not "govern" anything in Torontia, it opperates independently if that is what you mean, and it is not a "faction", it is a "peacekeeping force", it is not officially there to "control terratory"). Remember when I told you the TPG wants such things as clear channels of communication...

It will all become clear this Sunday with the IC posts (the TPG is not going to ignore or undermine the IMA, but they will seek assurances that the IMA does not attempt to undermine or ignore them.)

Time IS still moving in the convention thread, so in 3-4 days (by the time the convention starts) McKagan troop numbers could be boosted several hundred thousand.
In my opinion, time doesn't "move" as such in RPs. It's a fluid concept that changes variably with each IC post, not a timer that we need to conform to.

The day a TPG soldier walks up to the commander of an IMAF Armed Transportation Wing and tells him he can't park his planes there and the IMAF commander doesn't laugh in his face will be the day I surrender Saharistan and all my other holdings to Halberdgardia.

If you want to make every little IMA move in Torontia a bitch, you can do it; but the outcome isn't the brightest possible future for this RP.

When Amestria was in Torontia Burns would sometimes summon Full General Gran to his office and chew him out for this or that (the example I give is the failure to properly secure BC's northern border). I am not saying the TPG will want to command your troops (they will not), they would just like a clear idea what is going on and have the ability to make sure those troops are not up to no good.

In my opinion, time doesn't "move" as such in RPs. It's a fluid concept that changes variably with each IC post, not a timer that we need to conform to.

I don't think there is a timer either, nor did I say there was. But when we RP up to the point that the two days have passed in the convention thread, I don't see why they shouldn't have passed in the other thread.

When Amestria was in Torontia Burns would sometimes summon Full General Gran to his office and chew him out for this or that (the example I give is the failure to properly secure BC's northern border). I am not saying the TPG will want to command your troops (they will not), they would just like a clear idea what is going on and have the ability to make sure those troops are not up to no good.

Ah, I understand it.

So basically, the TPG would be more pissed if I landed 500,000 troops without asking, than if I landed 3 million and let them know about it?

I don't think there is a timer either, nor did I say there was. But when we RP up to the point that the two days have passed in the convention thread, I don't see why they shouldn't have passed in the other thread.

Actually less then 24 hours have passed since the "begining" of the convention.

Actually less then 24 hours have passed since the "begining" of the convention.

You misunderstood me; perhaps because of the two meanings of "convention." Yes, the convention thread has been going for 24 hours. But by my last use of "convention," i meant the actual political movement, that was delayed 48 hours because of all the stuff that happened.

Ah, I understand it.

So basically, the TPG would be more pissed if I landed 500,000 troops without asking, than if I landed 3 million and let them know about it?

The TPG would be pissed if the IMA acted as if they did not exist, refused to listen to its concerns, and failed to establish lines of communication so matters of importance could be discussed and mutual agreement reached.

Now Mckagan, say Peacekeepers were needed for whatever reason in Mckagan, but the Mckagan Government was still around. If the international peacekeeping forces did things without consulting them, or even informing them, would not your government be pissed? Yes, your government would be pissed and it would not matter what the government thought of the merits of the Peacekeeper's actions...

The TPG and IMA/IMAF in a dispute wouldn't exactly help Torontia's future ya know. And anyway, who is Torontia going to be run by as soon as the rebuilding is completed (I mean the player behind the PC screen)? McKagan, the original insomniac broker and NS player behind the ex-Saharistan or someone else?

Oh, and sorry to go off topic, but Hal, you forgot to add me in your factbook.

The TPG and IMA/IMAF in a dispute wouldn't exactly help Torontia's future ya know. And anyway, who is Torontia going to be run by as soon as the rebuilding is completed (I mean the player behind the PC screen)? McKagan, the original insomniac broker and NS player behind the ex-Saharistan or someone else?


I think the Torontian RP will continue in some form, with brief pauses and such (although it will be mostly political manuvering). It will likely remain a joint venture of all concerned parties OOC in running things...

The day a TPG soldier walks up to the commander of an IMAF Armed Transportation Wing and tells him he can't park his planes there and the IMAF commander doesn't laugh in his face will be the day I surrender Saharistan and all my other holdings to Halberdgardia.

:D

Well, Ames, what are you waiting for? Get on it! :p

:D

Well, Ames, what are you waiting for? Get on it! :p

Greedy Imperialist Pig!

:p

:D

Well, Ames, what are you waiting for? Get on it! :p

Xirnium has posted on the convention thread.

Xirnium has posted on the convention thread.

Dude, you just killed the mood. :p

Dude, you just killed the mood. :p

Don't call me dude.

Do you like snails?

I am unfamiliar with a proper comeback for such a question. :)

Greedy Imperialist Pig!

:p

Hey, I'm the founder of the SWC and studying American imperialism at the turn of the 20th century; what do you expect? Besides, I prefer the term "benevolent liberator," thank you. :p

Don't call me dude.

Would you prefer "dawg"? :p

Would you prefer "dawg"? :p

No.

Hey, I'm the founder of the SWC and studying American imperialism at the turn of the 20th century; what do you expect? Besides, I prefer the term "benevolent liberator," thank you. :p


You mean SELF DECLARED founder of the SWC. :p

We all know that McKagan is the House of the Organization. :p

Amestria, TG.

Amestria, TG.

Replied.

Xirnium, another TG.

Xirnium, another TG.
I have replied and sent you another, Amestria. I think so, anyway, I'm a little confused now. :)

Just in case anybody gets the idea that I'm neglecting the RP, I'm not. My delegate is still holed up in her quarters until the convention. She's paranoid, almost comically so, that Liscel is going to kill her. She's also starving, afraid that if she has room service deliver food that the Amestrians will poison it.

I do recall a post that said that Gilda would talk to her, and I'll respond when that happens.

I'm not quite sure, but I think the Foreign Minister said she would do it in the morning. I could always get her to send someone else to check on Levitt as soon as the meeting with Hal is over though (and it might be interesting to see how she responds to someone knocking on her door at around 10:30 at night).

Edit: Actually, I could send somebody right now if you like (I think at this time it's 9 ICly), it doesn't matter to me.

And Mark Brovan is standing around outside because he doesn't have the Social Skills to face these rich and powerful people and be casual. And he doesn't care about whatever scandal they did.

Xirnium, another TG...

Xirnium: Sure, go ahead and send someone.

And he doesn't care about whatever scandal they did.
He doesn't care that the Novans attempted to kidnap an Amestrian delegation? I admire his calmness.

He doesn't care that the Novans attempted to kidnap an Amestrian delegation? I admire his calmness.
He didn't see or hear it happening, so... Nope. Instead of looking around and socializing he's just waiting for the meeting, he missed everything that went on because of that. But considering he's the only one in there who doesn't hate Amestria, he would be a more than little angry. Let me RP the Novans passing and then have him wonder bluntly what in the heck is going on. I haven't been paying attention, so BH hasn't been paying attention.

Xirnium, another TG...
Read and replied, Amestria.

It's also the fact that Novan had to be a jerk and delete all the posts.

How should my delegate make an entrance? Cos I ain't sure. And what influences did you all get in making up your delegates' personalities?

How should my delegate make an entrance? Cos I ain't sure.

He would be at the hotel, since the convention is on 48 hour hold while they clean up the watery mess Novacom made... You could just RP him at the hotel watching TV, doing jumping jacks, planning stratagy, killing spiders, whatever...make a post that gives everyone a feeling of his personality.

Xirnium: Sure, go ahead and send someone.
There you go.

Xirnium, sent you another TG.

And so have I.

Xirnium: I sent you the last one for tonight (just mentioning it in case you have not already noticed).

Basically the war came about because Iraq demanded the raising of oil prices to $25 a barrel, the cessation of Kuwaiti 'theft' of Iraqi oil, a complete moratorium on Iraq's wartime loans and the formation of a type of Arab "Marshal Plan". When these demands were refuted by the Kuwaiti government (which considered them negotiable and not an ultimatum) as infringing on their sovereignty Saddam determined to go to war.

Anyway, it's all interesting. This all comes from the Osprey Publishing book "The Iran-Iraq War 1980-88".


Don't forget Saddam claiming Kuwait was another province of Kuwait, but it is said what finally cemented the invasion was that in a meeting between Iraqi and Kuwaiti negotiators, an Iraqi said to the Kuwaitis that because of the Iran-Iraq war which he said was to protect Kuwait, Iraqi children were starving. A Kuwaiti turned to his fellow Kuwaitis and said loudly something like "Well, why don't they send their women and children on to the street to earn their money?" Which is seen as a direct reference to Saddam's biological father walking out on his family when Saddam was a kid, and his mother being a bit popular with the men of the town as a result.

When Saddam heard the remark, he was enraged and ordered the invasion, saying "The Emir will not sleep peacefully in his palace tonight."

It's mentioned in "The Road to Baghdad: Saddam's Wars" By John Simpson.

Great, interesting, and chilling book.

Hal, you need to check a few pages back for an earlier post (P31 I believe).

There won't be any Kraven invasion or Spec Ops, Kraven has Fallen to Automagfreek, and All Troops are under orders for the General Surrender.

What of Concremo?

Kahanistan: TG

Xirnium, Large TG.

Amestria, TG.