NationStates Jolt Archive

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

The Israelis haven't done any ovens yet nor as far as we know have they
done medical experiments on babies, gassed people in large quantities
or used anyones skin for decoration.
They seem to think that means they cannot be compared to the Nazis.

Umm, the Nazis?

As far as I know, there aren't any Israelis rounding up Palestinians, starving them, executing them, and cremating them in concentration camps. And, I don't think there are any Israelis experimenting on Palestinian children or subjecting their women to torture and rape by solidiers.

And, AFAIK, the Jews in Germany didn't send nutjob fanatics with bombs strapped to their chests to blow up schools and restaurants. There is absolutely no comparison, because by this logic every country in the Middle East, and indeed the entire world, is comparable to the Nazi regime.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

As History has shown us........That could be declared to include the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, America, and so forth.

To answer your topic line, I'd have to definately say the Nazis were far worse than Israel's entire History to present day combined.

Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. How did the Nazis use the holocaust to justify the holocaust?

You are a sad sad person and are out of touch with reality.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

When the Israelis start systematically slaughtering every single Palestinian in death camps, and starts performing medical experiments, and starts conquering the Middle East, and has slaughtered 12 million innocent people, then we'll talk.

Whats with all the Nazi threads, its like Godwins law times 100.

Israel has done some pretty bad things in the past but it hasn't gotten to the level of the Nazis then again a nation formed after the holocaust and with large amounts of people who lived through it…I somehow expect better from them

Whats with all the Nazi threads, its like Godwins law times 100.

Maybe Nazi's are the new black?

(Color that is. It's a reference, you see)

In addition to everything already said, I would like to point out that Israel is reacting to attacks. The Nazis were the aggressors. The Israelis are responding to attacks from surrounding nations and from terrorists in their own nation.

And before you say that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs, the land was split into 4 nations: Israel for the Jews, Lebanon for the Christians, and Syria and Jordan for the Arabs. Jordan and Syria refused to accept or integrate their kin and Syris siezed control of Lebanon. Israel is not the aggressor (which is not to say they are totally justified in all they do).

Since your conversion to Islam, you've posted one thread on how good being close to Allah made you feel in a moment of enlightenment and I don't know how many more threads running down Israel and the West and pretty much anyone who isn't a Muslim. You might go back to devoting more time to reading the Koran and getting in touch with Allah. It seems to me that you're using your new-found religion as an excuse to expound (not even original) attacks on the standard "enemies" of Islam. I think you need to do some soul-searching.

When it comes to executing innocent people, I'd say Saudi Arabia and Iran are a hell of a lot worse. Nothing like stoning homosexuals, executing rape victims, beating and imprisoning dissidents, jailing women who refuse to submit to their husbands' abusive tyranny...

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

Israel doesn't take this one at all,because they aren't rounding up Palestinians,shooting them because of their religion,gassing them,burning their bodies en masse,and experimenting on live people.You're deluded.

When it comes to executing innocent people, I'd say Saudi Arabia and Iran are a hell of a lot worse. Nothing like stoning homosexuals, executing rape victims, beating and imprisoning dissidents, jailing women who refuse to submit to their husbands' abusive tyranny...

But that's not oppression, that's good Islamic morality. Just ask Soviestan. I'm sure he'll agree.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

We just had one of these. There is no comparison. You embarras your co-religonists.

But that's not oppression, that's good Islamic morality. Just ask Soviestan. I'm sure he'll agree.

Oh, I forgot...women, rape victims, homosexuals, and dissidents aren't people.

But that's not oppression, that's good Islamic morality. Just ask Soviestan. I'm sure he'll agree.

Good Abrahamic morality.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

This statement alone discredits the rest of your feeble argument. Has you would have to be completely insane to believe that.

Good Abrahamic morality.

Yeah, but the Jews and Christians almost entirely moved on from the Dark Ages, while the Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia (in particular) are still stuck in 700 AD.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

Little Tiny Mustache
Stephen Lynch

You're the love of my life but it cuts like a knife
and I feel that I'm being misled
See I'm a little concerned for I've recently learned
of the swastika tattoo on your head
And it makes you smile when you hear "Sieg Heil"
You love the smell of a burning cross in the yard
You do goose step salutes in your Doc Martin boots,
and you quoted "Mein Kampf" in our 5th anniversary card.

I think you're a nazi baby,
are you a nazi? You might be a nazi baby...

You keep extensive files on the Nuremberg trials,
and you watch them whenever they're airing
I guess I should've known when you bought a new bone
for your puppies named Goebbles and Goering
You showed up late to our very first date,
I said "how are you" you said "white power"
Call me paranoid but I'm not overjoyed
when you ask me if I want to shower...

I think you're a nazi
Don't be lying baby,
Are you a nazi?
Are you anti-Zion baby?

Your every dress is monagram SS, you hold an Aryan picknick and bash
And it makes me irate when you say I look great
when I wear a little tiny moustache,
Your social politics say that races don't mix,
and you call it pure blood pollution
And whenever I'm sad, you say it's not so bad,
for every problem there's a "Final Solution"...

I think you're a nazi,
Give me an answer baby
Are you a nazi?
You drive a fucking panzer baby

You say that love is blind so how could I have guessed
But then again I met you at the Wagner Fest

I know you're a nazi
And that's why I'm leavin'
I know you're a nazi
Sure as my name is Stephen, Lynch-Berg-stein.

Yeah, but the Jews and Christians almost entirely moved on from the Dark Ages, while the Muslims in Iran and Saudi Arabia (in particular) are still stuck in 700 AD.

I fear 1900-1950 is more accurate.

subjecting their women to torture and rape by solidiers


Since when did rape become one of the many allegations against the Nazis?

Good Abrahamic morality.

No, nations with Christian and Jewish majorities have cut that shit out.

Since when did rape become one of the many allegations against the Nazis?

When the Germans invaded the USSR.

No, nations with Christian and Jewish majorities have cut that shit out.

Currently, yes. However, it is still in the holy books.

I fear 1900-1950 is more accurate.

True.

Due to the two choices, my vote goes to the Nazis. They were far far worse than Israel.

Currently, yes. However, it is still in the holy books.

Yeah, but the Christians and Jews allow new interpretation and theological development while the majority of Islamic theology has stagnated since the 14th century (thanks in no small part to the Mongols).

Since when did rape become one of the many allegations against the Nazis?

Rape has been a part of warfare since the beginning. It's only fairly recently that western armies have begun to abstain in large part from raping the local women.

Since when did rape become one of the many allegations against the Nazis?

Since most armies often have at least a few bad eggs in their ranks.Think of the Americans in Abu Ghraib in Iraq.Torture and the like.I'm sure a few Nazi soliders raped a few people.If they were capable of genocide,I don't know what they think is unacceptable moral-wise.

Good Abrahamic morality.

Islam is only very loosely based on Abrahamic scriptures, and is based much more on the teachings of Muhammad.

Since when did rape become one of the many allegations against the Nazis?

Oh, those poor Nazis. They get blamed for everything. :( :( :(

Yeah, but the Christians and Jews allow new interpretation and theological development while the majority of Islamic theology has stagnated since the 14th century (thanks in no small part to the Mongols).

Just curious, but "thanks in no small part to the Mongols"? I'd throw in the Crusades, myself, they were a bigger detrimental effect on Islam's outlook than the Mongols. (Whoa, what a strange feeling of deja vu!)

Oh, those poor Nazis. They get blamed for everything. :( :( :(

It's sad, isn't it? And I don't understand why.... :rolleyes:

Oh, those poor Nazis. They get blamed for everything. :( :( :(

Next,someone'll accuse them of killing people!
Personally,I compare those loveable pacificists to small puppies.I love the Nazis. <3

Next,someone'll accuse them of killing people!
Personally,I compare those loveable pacificists to small puppies.I love the Nazis. <3

The Nazis killed people? AHHH!!!!!! Perish the thought.

The Nazis killed people? AHHH!!!!!! Perish the thought.

I know,it shocked me too!

Nazis.

Nazis.

Islam is only very loosely based on Abrahamic scriptures, and is based much more on the teachings of Muhammad.

True. However, these particular things are also encouraged in the Torah and are as such more Abrahamic than Islamic.
As people already pointed out however, most Christians and Jews have left those things behind them.

This statement alone discredits the rest of your feeble argument. Has you would have to be completely insane to believe that.

You if don't think Israel cries holocuast to justify their actions your completely insane.

You if don't think Israel cries holocuast to justify their actions your completely insane.

If you can find one source where any official statement has been made by Isreal using the holocaust to justify their actions (angsty insignificent Rabbis do not count), otherwise you are insane.

i would same they are pretty much the same in accuse and intention. they both wanted simular things. however the nazis. were better at it, so they managed to kill more in a shorter time. if israel continues, the death toll will start to look close.
but so far nazis are worse.

i would same they are pretty much the same in accuse and intention. they both wanted simular things. however the nazis. were better at it, so they managed to kill more in a shorter time. if israel continues, the death toll will start to look close.
but so far nazis are worse.

Except that the Nazis systematically killed people where as most of the deaths done by Israelis mostly happened in combate.

i would same they are pretty much the same in accuse and intention. they both wanted simular things. however the nazis. were better at it, so they managed to kill more in a shorter time. if israel continues, the death toll will start to look close.
but so far nazis are worse.

No you are completely wrong. 90% of the civilian deaths caused by the Isralies were because of neglagence, they do not want to rid the world of a particularly race, religion etc... They are just attacking because they don't want the rest of Asia pointing missiles at them with only a meaningless boarder seperating them. Hardly the same for germany, who WANTED to rid their country (and others) of Jews, Homosexuals, Disabled etc....

Oh and the death toll for Germany was way way way way way higher.

Except that the Nazis systematically killed people where as most of the deaths done by Israelis mostly happened in combate.

1-no your wrong. israel mostly kills innocents.

2-the nazis were more systematic, hence i said they were better at it.

This thread gets my "Retarded Thread of the Day" award.

Er. Let me think. Umm.....Nazis?

Let's see.... I wonder how many people who tend to compare israelis to the nazis actually have an understand of the mechanics behind those two groups?

Let's try to look for the following things...
A - *Searches for jewish people in position of power in the nazi regime* shock, none.
*searches for arab people in position of power in the israeli regime* what do you know, there are several party, and damn they sure have a freedom to do what they want... and what do you know, there's the islamic movement, that do what they want in the north of israel.

B - Hey. did you know that the are people that aren't of jewish decent that work in corporates as engineer and management.... shock, gasp, and so on.

The government of israel (Yes, the government... not israelis) can be blamed basically on being morons, idiots, incompetent and corrupted.... but efficiently ruthless..... that's just can't be said.... Israeli politicians are all but efficient.

1-no your wrong. israel mostly kills innocents.

Define an innocent during an intifada.

lol, a very poor attempt to attack Israel.

if people were to put as much attention into curing cancer as they do to try to make israel look evil, cancer would be on the same line as smallpox.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

The difference is scale and motivation. Nazis where on the offensive and on a much larger scale. The Israelis are more defensive, and doing it on a smaller scale.

Define an innocent during an intifada.

Just for arguments sake, how about a child?

Define an innocent during an intifada.

there is no point having a conversation with someone that thinks using clusters bombs is ok. israel kill random children and innocent adults. at times isreal is attacked but not evertime the attack have they been attacked by the people they kill. its not defensive if you started the conflict.

Nazi Germany and Israel is a classic case of child abuse on a global scale. The abused becomes the abuser in turn, as we see in the case of the Palestinian Question.

Without a doubt innocent people died in the intefedah..... but let me give you a little secret.... it wasn't on purpose.... shocking, isn't it?

But if we're going to that direction, the people that lost their life in suicide bombing are or aren't innocent, cause I lost you on that.

Now, I want to add another thing, why people just tend to compare the nazis and israel.... it looks like a personal crusade.... I think that should admit, they met a rude israeli and decided to take it out on all israelis.... tsk tsk tsk

The difference is scale and motivation. Nazis where on the offensive and on a much larger scale. The Israelis are more defensive, and doing it on a smaller scale.

difference is scale not motivation. the nazis also believed they were being attacked. if they had one we would be saying the same thing.

there is no point having a conversation with someone that thinks using clusters bombs is ok. israel kill random children and innocent adults. at times isreal is attacked but not evertime the attack have they been attacked by the people they kill. its not defensive if you started the conflict.

So you are saying the kill people on purpose? Seems to me they do the level best to avoid casualties. They will happen in war, and if you want to believe it or not, they are indeed in a war against terrorism.

PM is right that a child is indeed an innocent.

wow, this whole thread sorta backfired on you, huh?

difference is scale not motivation. the nazis also believed they were being attacked. if they had one we would be saying the same thing.

They didn't believe that, they propogated it too defend themselves. The Isralies actually are under attack, and they do not attack a race where 99.999% of them have done nothing to them (unlike the nazis) they try (but fail) to attack legitimate targets to eliminate the countries threat. At the same time trying NOT to harm innocents.

Seems to me they do the level best to avoid casualties.

they could try alot harder.

difference is scale not motivation. the nazis also believed they were being attacked. if they had one we would be saying the same thing.

There, at least for a long time, was a very real threat to Israel. Not so much with Nazi Germany.

they could try alot harder.
And what makes you think they not? oh, I forgot, you're omniscient, you just feel it

There, at least for a long time, was a very real threat to Israel. Not so much with Nazi Germany.

there was only a threat to israel, when the jews went over there. israel is not defending it self. they took land.

Whats with all the Nazi threads, its like Godwins law times 100.

What's the rule when the opening post Godwins?

there was only a threat to israel, when the jews went over there. israel is not defending it self. they took land.

in a military action against israel (if you mean the 6 day war).

If you mean the formation in 48 I have to ask, took from whom?

What's the rule when the opening post Godwins?

godwin's law only states that in time, every thread will contain a reference to hitler/nazis.

In other words, as the thread grows the probabily approaches 100%. Which perfectly includes 100% from the getgo.

And what makes you think they not? oh, I forgot, you're omniscient, you just feel it

you pro-israelis are just like the fourth holy reich, reality just flies out of the window and you just decide to ingnor facts. the purpose of cluster bombs is not to level the amount of deaths but increase as much as posible at random targets. kids think these are footballs for christ sake kids! anyone hear have kids? a young brother/sister? cousines? imagine hearing one of them kicking a cluster bomb thinking it was a football and some jerk says "ah well israel tries its best".

you pro-israelis are just like the fourth holy reich, reality just flies out of the window and you just decide to ingnor facts. the purpose of cluster bombs is not to level the amount of deaths but increase as much as posible at random targets. kids think these are footballs for christ sake kids! anyone hear have kids? a young brother/sister? cousines? imagine hearing one of them kicking a cluster bomb thinking it was a football and some jerk says "ah well israel tries its best".

Nah, they probably say "Those little brown bastards were going to be jihadis when they grew up anyways."

Israel could be better. This thread is, however, entirely ridiculous.

you pro-israelis are just like the fourth holy reich, reality just flies out of the window and you just decide to ingnor facts. the purpose of cluster bombs is not to level the amount of deaths but increase as much as posible at random targets. kids think these are footballs for christ sake kids! anyone hear have kids? a young brother/sister? cousines? imagine hearing one of them kicking a cluster bomb thinking it was a football and some jerk says "ah well israel tries its best".

Huh, sorry but I'm not a pro-israeli.... I am an israeli, and as such I'll be comdemed of being biased which is true, but not out of ideology, but because I know the people you accuse, and basically, I know the facts, I know that my government made many mistakes, but in the end of the day, you lack facts because you seek to see the world thru you own looking glass, based on your own biased agenda, because in the end, the israeli government, the israeli army doesn't aim at killing civilians, because with all due respect, as cynical as it sound, israel is a small nation, and as such it doesn't have the power to sneer and look down at the rest of the world, so it is well aware of public opinion. And as in politics, people will try to appease their critics

Nazi Germany and Israel is a classic case of child abuse on a global scale. The abused becomes the abuser in turn, as we see in the case of the Palestinian Question.
The Palestinian Question? are you mad? you are simply coppy/pasting nazi catchphrases into a conext where they have never been used.
The nazis went out to conquer the world and create a master race through mass slaughter.
The Israelis try to defend their citizens in a very hostile environment, resulting in both innocent and military personel deaths, BOTH in combat.

The two things could not be more dissimilar.

If I ever had any respect for sevelral posters in this thread, they have now been added to the irredeemable maggot list. Way to go, fucktards.

And just by the way, cluster bombs are legal according to international law. War isn't nice. War does not protect children, or anyone else.

Huh, sorry but I'm not a pro-israeli.... I am an israeli, and as such I'll be comdemed of being biased which is true, but not out of ideology, but because I know the people you accuse, and basically, I know the facts, I know that my government made many mistakes, but in the end of the day, you lack facts because you seek to see the world thru you own looking glass, based on your own biased agenda, because in the end, the israeli government, the israeli army doesn't aim at killing civilians, because with all due respect, as cynical as it sound, israel is a small nation, and as such it doesn't have the power to sneer and look down at the rest of the world, so it is well aware of public opinion. And as in politics, people will try to appease their critics

sorry to niform you but when your gov aims a missile at a public beach, that is aim for civilians.
i'm might be biased only cause i'm against any gov that thinks murdering children for any means , is ok.
when my country was miltarily active, not once did we kill children, not once, did we kill at random, not once did we cause a death to a civilian on enemy soil. oh yeah, my country is smaller than yours.

sorry to niform you but when your gov aims a missile at a public beach, that is aim for civilians.
i'm might be biased only cause i'm against any gov that thinks murdering children for any means , is ok.
when my country was miltarily active, not once did we kill children, not once, did we kill at random, not once did we cause a death to a civilian on enemy soil. oh yeah, my country is smaller than yours.


Now we're getting personal... and please tell me, you heard about the beach bombing from the news... tsk tsk tsk... you sure do believe everything, you don't examine the facts, you are given prepared facts and you accept them, you don't question for the moment if there's a slight chance for them to be false.
And second. my government for all it's faults and There are more than you even are aware of, Do not target children on purpose, and not to prove a point.

[QUOTE=Kreitzmoorland;12041801]The nazis went out to conquer the world and create a master race through mass slaughter.
The Israelis try to defend their citizens in a very hostile environment, resulting in both innocent and military personel deaths, BOTH in combat.

The two things could not be more dissimilar.

[QUOTE]

The jews went out to conquer palestine and created israel through mass slaughter.
very simular, but note in my first post the nazis are currently ahead in the who is worse catagory. but in time israel will catch up.

i'm really surprised how many pro-israelis there are here. were i'm from you would make alot of people angry saying what people are saying here. try to defend israel late at night in abar with young people, you will be glassed.

Tis a silly question really. It's like asking what was the worse tragedy Bosnia or Rwanda?

Although whilst I think it's Ok to ask questions about the attitude of the Israeli government and - as a Jew - talk about the actions of the Nazi Regime; it's quite disgusting to ask about whose actions are worse when you look at the scale of the atrocities commmitted by the Nazis or the continued subjugation of the Palestinian people by Israeli troops. They're both awful but in very different ways.

Actually, the jews as you say, conquered israel because they made the land worth living on, most of the area the majority of israel live in was swamp land, unworthy of dwelling, but jewish socialists dried it up and made it worth for agriculture, industry and dwelling.... so please, get your facts straight.

there's one singular important line of thought involved in all this.

Did a jew ever bomb a german nightclub?

Did a jew ever blow up a bus of german children?

Did a jew ever walk into a german square and detonate an explosive device wrapped in ball bearings covered in rat poison?

Did the jews, as a people, ever state that it was their goal to destroy the german state?

I believe the Isrealis have to try a lot harder to reach the level of the nazis. I mean, currently it's all half-arsed imcompetence and apathy...

Trilby63;12041870']currently it's all half-arsed imcompetence and apathy...

It's a western democracy thing.

Actually, the jews as you say, conquered israel because they made the land worth living on, most of the area the majority of israel live in was swamp land, unworthy of dwelling, but jewish socialists dried it up and made it worth for agriculture, industry and dwelling.... so please, get your facts straight.

thats a shit point.
just cause you make the land better doesnt mean its ok to murder the people surounding it.
with your logic it was ok for the spanish and english to around killing and raping aborigional people from across the globe? they built roads there didnt they?

thats a shit point.
just cause you make the land better doesnt mean its ok to murder the people surounding it.
with your logic it was ok for the spanish and english to around killing and raping aborigional people from across the globe? they built roads there didnt they?

Again, you just think that everything in human history is about murder again, you weren't there, you're not here now, and until you'll have both side to weigh, don't think you know everything.
As I said, I don't agree with many actions my government issue, but on the other hand, they aren't as you say there.

It's like arguing with a socialist and he tells me that I got a false reality preception, and everything I say is wrong, no matter what the facts say.

The jews went out to conquer palestine and created israel through mass slaughter.
very simular, but note in my first post the nazis are currently ahead in the who is worse catagory. but in time israel will catch up.wars (like the one in 48) =/= mass slaughters. I don't get the disconnect youre having here.

i'm really surprised how many pro-israelis there are here. were i'm from you would make alot of people angry saying what people are saying here. try to defend israel late at night in abar with young people, you will be glassed.So young people who hang out at bars late at night in your smaller-than-Israel-but-oh-so-virtuous country are not only astoundingly ignorant, but also intolerant, violent pieces of shit?
At least they can thank you for your loyal representation of them.

Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?
Surely this kind of trolling is bannable.

Nazis, obviously, duh. Israel is merely an echolon or two above apartheid South Africa, or the USA.

They're an apartheid state, but at least they treat the Arab citizens of Israel with equal respect.

Nazis were light years below any of them in terms of moral standing.

wars (like the one in 48) =/= mass slaughters. I don't get the disconnect youre having here.

So young people who hang out at bars late at night in your smaller-than-Israel-but-oh-so-virtuous country are not only astoundingly ignorant, but also intolerant, violent pieces of shit?
At least they can thank you for your loyal representation of them.

there wasnt at any point did i mention '48.

my people are very violent. but at least we have never invaded any other country in our history. theres us and and papa new guinea.
we usually support the underdogs and the people who were being invaded.

I'm no fan of the Israeli government, but let's be honest - the Nazis were so much worse.

Israel's more like Apartheid South Africa than Nazi Germany. And it certainly hasn't killed as many people.

there wasnt at any point did i mention '48.

my people are very violent. but at least we have never invaded any other country in our history. theres us and and papa new guinea.
we usually support the underdogs and the people who were being invaded.

your countrymen tried to bomb fisherman's warf, multiple times, did they not?

Good Abrahamic morality.
As a Christian I disagree. Killing or persecuting the listed groups is not OK.

I fear 1900-1950 is more accurate.
That's not true either. Christians, by and large, are as much in the 21st century as anyone.

there wasnt at any point did i mention '48.

...created israel through mass slaughter.
yeah.

at least they treat the Arab citizens of Israel with equal respect.
I'm not quite sure that that's correct - IIRC they need permits to go into Jarusalem, and don't often get them. I might be getting a bit confused on the matter, though.

there wasnt at any point did i mention '48.

my people are very violent. but at least we have never invaded any other country in our history. theres us and and papa new guinea.
we usually support the underdogs and the people who were being invaded.

Sometimes the underdogs can be scumbags too. The Palestinians are a classic example of that. They glorify men who blow themselves up on busses and in markets. They don't take on Israeli government or military targets, they'd rather blow up a cafe full of Israeli teenagers. At least Israel makes some effort to hit the terrorists rather than just randomly bombing Palestinian towns.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?



Wow, the Isreali gov might be a little body count happy, but there absolutley no-where near genocide. Chill out.

I'm not quite sure that that's correct - IIRC they need permits to go into Jarusalem, and don't often get them. I might be getting a bit confused on the matter, though.

You are refering to east jerusalem arabs, the arabs who live in the rest of israel are free to go as they please.

Yeah, it's definitely the Nazis.

The Israelis are in reasonably good stead.

your countrymen tried to bomb fisherman's warf, multiple times, did they not?

i said my country, not terrorists from my country, which there alot of.

Sometimes the underdogs can be scumbags too. The Palestinians are a classic example of that. They glorify men who blow themselves up on busses and in markets. They don't take on Israeli government or military targets, they'd rather blow up a cafe full of Israeli teenagers. At least Israel makes some effort to hit the terrorists rather than just randomly bombing Palestinian towns.

never said i liked what palestinian terrorists are doing, the vast majority of palestinians are innocent

my people are very violent.
We are not very violent. Our history has little bloodstaining compared to most countries. (The IRA does not represent Irish people.)

I'm not quite sure that that's correct - IIRC they need permits to go into Jarusalem, and don't often get them. I might be getting a bit confused on the matter, though.
I don't mean the Palestians, I mean the descendants of those who stayed in Israel when the zionists took over in 1948. They form about 20% of the Israel ipopulation and they have MPs and a Supreme Court judge.

We are not very violent. Our history has little bloodstaining compared to most countries. (The IRA does not represent Irish people.)

i wasnt talking about our history or ira. according to foriegners i know that have been here awhile, they think we are more violent then people were they are from,also funny enough, friendlier. i thnik its cause we are very passionate about things. i we like something, we love; if dislike something, we hate it.

i wasnt talking about our history or ira. according to foriegners i know that have been here awhile, they think we are more violent then people were they are from,also funny enough, friendlier. i thnik its cause we are very passionate about things. i we like something, we love; if dislike something, we hate it.Before you break out even more embarrasing cliches, would you mind clarifying your contradiction?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041973&postcount=90

Before you break out even more embarrasing cliches, would you mind clarifying your contradiction?
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12041973&postcount=90

explain.
other than we i said i never mentioned '48 i have never mentioned '48. jews went to israel before that time, result is mass slaughter.

i said my country, not terrorists from my country, which there alot of.

ah, no true scotsman...or irishman in this case I suppose.

they have MPs and a Supreme Court judge.
Which were shut up in the Lebanon crisis, which really shows how they're viewed.

But I don't really want to get in a bad mood about this.

explain.
other than we i said i never mentioned '48 i have never mentioned '48. jews went to israel before that time, result is mass slaughter.Israel was created in 48. you have stated that the creation of Israel was accomapnied mby mass slaughter. When asked to clarify, substantiate, confirm all you do is squirm. So please: clarify, substantiate, confirm.... Wait, you can't?
Then go learn some dates off by heart.

sorry to niform you but when your gov aims a missile at a public beach, that is aim for civilians.
i'm might be biased only cause i'm against any gov that thinks murdering children for any means , is ok.
when my country was miltarily active, not once did we kill children, not once, did we kill at random, not once did we cause a death to a civilian on enemy soil. oh yeah, my country is smaller than yours.

If you are really against any government that thinks murdering children is ok, then you should be against the Palestian government as well as the other governments of the Middle East.

If you are really against any government that thinks murdering children is ok, then you should be against the Palestian government as well as the other governments of the Middle East.

This debate is about Israel.

"But the Arabs do it too!!" is not a valid argument, sorry.

there was only a threat to israel, when the jews went over there. israel is not defending it self. they took land.

And one can say that the Arabs also took the land that was retaken by the Israelis. Its a vicious circle.

you pro-israelis are just like the fourth holy reich, reality just flies out of the window and you just decide to ingnor facts.

Actually, we do not ignore facts. The Fourth Holy Reich does ignore facts and it is becoming apparent that you are ignoring the logic behind many arguments poised to you.

the purpose of cluster bombs is not to level the amount of deaths but increase as much as posible at random targets. kids think these are footballs for christ sake kids! anyone hear have kids? a young brother/sister? cousines? imagine hearing one of them kicking a cluster bomb thinking it was a football and some jerk says "ah well israel tries its best".

I guess someone forgot to mention that there is always unexploded munitions from wars. People are still dying from bombs that have failed to detonate during World War II for crying out loud. And I also recommend you look into the type of cluster bombs that the IDF actually uses. You might be surprised that they are safer than previous generations of cluster bombs for they expire after a certain amount of time.

Muslims are far more similiar to Nazis than the Israelis are. Currently the #2 bestselling book in Turkey is Mein Kampf. When the Ottoman invaded the Jews' lands and subjecated them, they placed many restrictions on them and other non-Muslims. One interesting one was that they were forced to wear a yellow badge on their clothing in public. Sounds just like Nazi laws to me.

sorry to niform you but when your gov aims a missile at a public beach, that is aim for civilians.

Now you are totally uninformed as the beach incident had NO MISSILE with it. BTW, it was a left over shell from a previous military engagement which happens.

The jews went out to conquer palestine and created israel through mass slaughter.

I'm calling Bullshit here. That is so far inaccurate that it is very laughable.

Which were shut up in the Lebanon crisis, which really shows how they're viewed.

But I don't really want to get in a bad mood about this.
Well just accept the facts then, that ~20% of Israelis are Muslim Arabs who have every right that a Jew has.

Read my above posts; this does not in any way take from the fact that Israel is running an apartheid operation.

there wasnt at any point did i mention '48.

my people are very violent. but at least we have never invaded any other country in our history. theres us and and papa new guinea.
we usually support the underdogs and the people who were being invaded.

In that case, did your nation support Israel in 1948 because they were invaded then. Or how about the other wars that Israel was defending themselves in? After all, they were the underdog as they were defending themselves against at least 3 to 5 nations!

Your hatred for Israel is noted and anything more you say against Israel will be taken with a grain of salt for it is evident you know jack about the conflict.

And one can say that the Arabs also took the land that was retaken by the Israelis. Its a vicious circle.

Not quite. The Canaanites were the first inhabitors of Israel, and were driven out by the Israelis by war and genocide more or less.


However the Last canaanites are certain parts of the Lebanese population and the Maltese (especially those among the coast, in the Maronite and Shiite populations of lebanese there are many descendents of those driven away from their homeland by the Israelis).
So if you want to speak that kind of bullshit that Jews were there first, then tell them to screw off and give modern-day Israel to the Maltese and Lebanese.


"One of the 613 mitzvot prescribes that no inhabitants of the cities of six Canaanite nations, the same as mentioned in 7:1, minus the Girgashites, were to be left alive."

The old Israelis had their own little holocaust on the Canaanites then stole their land to form Israel, and in my opinion they got punished for it throughout history in ironic justice. Causing them untold sufferring, and yet seeing Israels modern day actions their 2500 years of exile and sufferring were obviously not enough to teach them humility.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?My thoughts: You're a moral leper.

Not quite. The Canaanites were the first inhabitors of Israel, and were driven out by the Israelis by war and genocide more or less.


However the Last canaanites are certain parts of the Lebanese population and the Maltese (especially those among the coast, in the Maronite and Shiite populations of lebanese there are many descendents of those driven away from their homeland by the Israelis).
So if you want to speak that kind of bullshit that Jews were there first, then tell them to screw off and give modern-day Israel to the Maltese and Lebanese.


"One of the 613 mitzvot prescribes that no inhabitants of the cities of six Canaanite nations, the same as mentioned in 7:1, minus the Girgashites, were to be left alive."

The old Israelis had their own little holocaust on the Canaanites then stole their land to form Israel, and in my opinion they got punished for it throughout history in ironic justice. Causing them untold sufferring, and yet seeing Israels modern day actions their 2500 years of exile and sufferring were obviously not enough to teach them humility.

Yeah, never mind the fact that many of the Canaanite nations attacked the Israelites and tried to destroy them when they were wandering around in the wilderness, but such inconvenient truths are often overlooked by the uninformed.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

...

Okay, look Sovietstan, we get it: you're a Muslim. You sing the praises of Allah, pray towards Mecca, all that stuff. But for the love of Allah, stop trolling the standard Islamic line! Think for yourself, man. Didn't you used to be quite the debator?

Now, I'm not defending Israel. Israel has consistantly proven itself to be shabby on human rights and above all else an example of why theocracy is a bad idea. But it's not anywhere close to the Nazis. Don't make comparisons that are senseless, please.

Yeah, never mind the fact that many of the Canaanite nations attacked the Israelites and tried to destroy them when they were wandering around in the wilderness, but such inconvenient truths are often overlooked by the uninformed.

So you view the genocide on the Canaanites by the Israelis as justified? Then on the same line is not the National Socialist's genocide on the Jewish justified in that according to their twisted logic the jews tried to destroy them?

Or is no genocide ever justified. Of course I only get exhausted at the rather unintelligent people that always claim Israel all the way because it was in the beginning Israeli land which it wasn't, in the passing it just happened to have belonged to the Israelis, much like it once belonged to the Greek, Romans, Byzantines, Turks, Egyptians, Persians and Babylonians.

Israel has consistantly proven itself to be shabby on human rights and above all else an example of why theocracy is a bad idea.
Umm, Israel isn't a theocracy.

Canaanites, Israelites, Romans, Popes, Nazis... Yep.

Ring the bell when you finally reach the 21'st century. For the mean time... stay in this closet of a thread, please.

The Israelis haven't done any ovens yet nor as far as we know have they
done medical experiments on babies, gassed people in large quantities
or used anyones skin for decoration.
They seem to think that means they cannot be compared to the Nazis.

Having said that

they have effectively enclosed the Palestinians in ghettos
strip Israeli palestinians of their rights
deny other palestinians any rights at all

They utilise collective punishment.
They seize property and lands
Drive people from their homes.

And while they have not yet gotten to a stage that can be clearly labelled
as genocide, the direction they have been moving to over the last 60 years
certainly indicates deliberate efforts to ethnic cleansing.

So I for one feel that while not at quite the excesses of the Nazis, still qualify shamefully, to be considered in the same mould.

Soviestan, I have lost pretty much all respect for you. Although it's not surprising, since I suppose you have expressed these views earlier.
Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority.
You mean like how the Nazis allowed Jewish members of parliament? Oops.
Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children.
Um... teh lol?
Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions.
WTF? How did the Nazis use the Holocaust as justification for their actions? They wanted to keep it secret, for starters, and the Holocaust was a Nazi action itself, obviously.

Actually, we do not ignore facts. The Fourth Holy Reich does ignore facts and it is becoming apparent that you are ignoring the logic behind many arguments poised to you.



I guess someone forgot to mention that there is always unexploded munitions from wars. People are still dying from bombs that have failed to detonate during World War II for crying out loud. And I also recommend you look into the type of cluster bombs that the IDF actually uses. You might be surprised that they are safer than previous generations of cluster bombs for they expire after a certain amount of time.

So, are they using friendly cluster bombs? Which kill children softly?

Umm, Israel isn't a theocracy.

...

It's not? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Israel is a democratic republic with universal suffrage that operates under the parliamentary system. According to the international data reported by Freedom House, the degree of political rights and civil liberties in Israel makes it the only liberal democracy in the Middle East, consisting of a multi-party system and separation of powers.[30] Conversely, the research group Minorities at Risk (MAR) characterizes Israel's system of governance to be an "ethnic democracy", and notes that "the nationalism inherent in Israel’s foundation as a 'Jewish state' is at odds with its political basis of democratic governance vis-à-vis the Arab minority.
...

Oh. Well, there you go. My mistake.

Oh. Well, there you go. My mistake.
Like most small countries founded in the 20th century it's based on the secular social democratic model. I don't think any of Israel's laws are based on Jewish scripture.

Hmm...Well, at the moment the only question is body count, IMO.

*looks up*

Nazis:
6,000,000 (Holocaust)
4,000,000 (I'm just estimating, WWII)

Israelis:
10,000 (1948 Israel-Arab conflict)
650 (Suez)
21,000 (Six-days war)
10,000 (War of Attrition)
8,528 (Yom Kippur)
9,800 (1982 Lebanon War)
1,210 (July War

Total Israel Deaths Inflicted: 61,188
Total German Deaths Inflicted: 10,000,000

So yeah, at the moment Germany is worse.

Now you are totally uninformed as the beach incident had NO MISSILE with it. BTW, it was a left over shell from a previous military engagement which happens.

Apparently (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/), that is not very clear. Why is one story more credible then the other?

Hmm...Well, at the moment the only question is body count, IMO.

*looks up*

Nazis:
6,000,000 (Holocaust)
4,000,000 (I'm just estimating, WWII)

Israelis:
10,000 (1948 Israel-Arab conflict)
650 (Suez)
21,000 (Six-days war)
10,000 (War of Attrition)
8,528 (Yom Kippur)
9,800 (1982 Lebanon War)
1,210 (July War

Total Israel Deaths Inflicted: 61,188
Total German Deaths Inflicted: 10,000,000

So yeah, at the moment Germany is worse.
WWII killed about 40 million people, iirc.
Your Israel numbers are wrong, the vast majority of those wars were defensive for Israel.

Apparently (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast.probe/), that is not very clear. Why is one story more credible then the other?

That story in regards to the beach incident, no where was a missile mentioned. A shell from a ship yes, that was mentioned but not a missile. That makes the story questionable.

WWII killed about 40 million people, iirc.
Your Israel numbers are wrong, the vast majority of those wars were defensive for Israel.

Yeah, but not all of them were killed by Germany.

As for defensive, germany was defending itself from the allies, was it not?

Hmm...Well, at the moment the only question is body count, IMO.

*looks up*

Nazis:
6,000,000 (Holocaust)
4,000,000 (I'm just estimating, WWII)

Although it's unclear how many WWII deaths you can actually blame the Nazis for, it is pretty much undisputed that the number exceeds 20 million.

Hmm...Well, at the moment the only question is body count, IMO.

*looks up*

Nazis:
6,000,000 (Holocaust)
4,000,000 (I'm just estimating, WWII)

Israelis:
10,000 (1948 Israel-Arab conflict)
650 (Suez)
21,000 (Six-days war)
10,000 (War of Attrition)
8,528 (Yom Kippur)
9,800 (1982 Lebanon War)
1,210 (July War

Total Israel Deaths Inflicted: 61,188
Total German Deaths Inflicted: 10,000,000

So yeah, at the moment Germany is worse.


Your history teacher should be ashamed of himself/herself.

WW2 = 60 million deaths+

Holocaust = 11 million deaths+ (of which estimated is 6 million jews, with lowest estimated running to 3-4 million jews, and highest 7-9 million, and the universally accepted but controversial and not fully substantiated number of 6 million is used.) Rest of the holocaust deaths were non-jews (homosexuals, disabled, Roma (gypsies), Regime enemies&critics, Soviet PoW, etc...

Yeah, but not all of them were killed by Germany.

As for defensive, germany was defending itself from the allies, was it not?
WTF? Germany attacked Poland first, Germany attacked France/Britain before they attacked Germany, Germany attacked Russia first, Germany's ally Japan attacked America first...

That story in regards to the beach incident, no where was a missile mentioned. A shell from a ship yes, that was mentioned but not a missile. That makes the story questionable.
Ok. Explain the Khiam incident okay too, then... 30 year old Hez ammunition exploded under the Observation Post shelter?

Your history teacher should be ashamed of himself/herself.

WW2 = 60 million deaths+

Holocaust = 11 million deaths+ (of which estimated is 6 million jews, with lowest estimated running to 3-4 million jews, and highest 7-9 million, and the universally accepted but controversial and not fully substantiated number of 6 million is used.) Rest of the holocaust deaths were non-jews (homosexuals, disabled, Roma (gypsies), Regime enemies&critics, Soviet PoW, etc...

Does anyone have any figures for Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF?
Not counting any wars of any kind, just the regular day to day, defense of Israel
targeted assassinations and/or innocent men women and children?

Any further figures as well on child and infant mortality in the occupied
territories, through malnutrition or lack of access to medical facilities etc?

In a previous thread I said that I believed that the OP tended to post and leave.

I was told I was wrong and that he did reappear every once in a while.

I want to change my observation.

The OP posts a thread, waits for four or five pages to find the weakest of the thirty or so posts telling him why he's wrong, refutes that, ignores the rest, and claims victory.

Does anyone have any figures for Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF?
Not counting any wars of any kind, just the regular day to day, defense of Israel
targeted assassinations and/or innocent men women and children?

Any further figures as well on child and infant mortality in the occupied
territories, through malnutrition or lack of access to medical facilities etc?

How about how many die from Pale suicide bombers? or how many palestinian children are killed, because they are put in harms way by their loving people, in order to some how villify Israel when they attack the terrorists in those same spots.

*looks up*

Nazis:
6,000,000 (Holocaust)
4,000,000 (I'm just estimating, WWII)
Those are pretty damn low numbers... And why do you only consider Jews victims of the holocaust?

WTF? Germany attacked Poland first, Germany attacked France/Britain before they attacked Germany, Germany attacked Russia first, Germany's ally Japan attacked America first...

It was France and Britain that declared war on Germany, not the other way around.

It was France and Britain that declared war on Germany, not the other way around.
Yes, but it was in defence of Poland, and Germany had been warned by France and Britain that they would declare war. What I meant was after declaring war they didn't exactly 'attack' since France sat around and waited for the Germans to make the next move.

Does anyone have any figures for Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF?
Not counting any wars of any kind, just the regular day to day, defense of Israel
targeted assassinations and/or innocent men women and children?

Any further figures as well on child and infant mortality in the occupied
territories, through malnutrition or lack of access to medical facilities etc?It doesn't take a any figures to figure out that it's going to be a lot less than 11 million.

It was France and Britain that declared war on Germany, not the other way around.Because they were allied with Poland. And Poland was attacked first.

How about how many die from Pale suicide bombers? or how many palestinian children are killed, because they are put in harms way by their loving people, in order to some how villify Israel when they attack the terrorists in those same spots.


All deaths are terrible and we should all be seeking to avoid them.

Israel does not seem to try to do so by any sane judgement.

I was hoping someone might provide some totalised figures

But one thing I do know is that the ratio of deaths in recent years
is about 8 palestinians from IDF attack to 1 Israeli by terrorist action.

Israel is villified by those who do, generally because they take actions
knowing darn well they will be killing innocents.
Israel is generally supported by people who think there is some kind of
equality in power and in killings by both sides due to highly biased
reporting particularly in America where analyses indicates usually 100%(can be lower, has to the best of my knowledge never been less than 50%)
of Israeli deaths are reported compared to 40% of Palestinian deaths
(can be lower but people have a hard time believing how much lower.)
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

WTF? Germany attacked Poland first, Germany attacked France/Britain before they attacked Germany, Germany attacked Russia first, Germany's ally Japan attacked America first...

And then we attacked them, so what you're saying is if they had murdered american civilians, it would have been okay? 'Cause that's what Israel does.

Oh Fuck!
I So forgot to tell you this; Nazis were worse (DUH). Much, Much!

I still want an answer to the only question I put through in this thread. Is the past pass to "the Jewish state" to do what it wants. Again, not anti-jew... just vary of current Israeli policies.

It doesn't take a any figures to figure out that it's going to be a lot less than 11 million.

Well of course
population of Gaza and the West Bank is roughly 5 million.

That the numbers would be lesser does not make Israeli actions better

Well of course
population of Gaza and the West Bank is roughly 5 million.

That the numbers would be lesser does not make Israeli actions better

It does make it proportionately better. ok? there hardly is even 1 million palestinians in mass graves, is there?!? SO stfu 400.000? 30.000? close? Well, I trust you to show me one mass grave of one person.

Well of course
population of Gaza and the West Bank is roughly 5 million.

That the numbers would be lesser does not make Israeli actions betterNo, but it makes arguing that case in a thread comparing Israel to the Nazis douchebaggery of the worst sort.

It does make it proportionately better. ok? there hardly is even 1 million palestinians in mass graves, is there?!? SO stfu 400.000? 30.000? close?

I don't know if it does make it proportionally better, to do so
how do you analyse the figures
do you take 11 million out of the entire population of most of Europe and part
of Russia, what percentage would that be?

Or to be be reasonable do we take 6 million from the entire Jewish population
of Europe and parts of Russia.(which as far as I can make out at the moment was about 10/11 million
in 1939 and while it may have been lower I doubt it was much higher)

Your numbers may be smaller but seriously it does not make Israel better.
Hitler after all killed fewer people overall than Stalin and it doesn't make
him anything better than a murderous irredeemable sod.

O-kay...so a comparison is being run here between on the one side:

A state which aimed to ensure 'racial purity', and happily killed on an industrial scale, across half a continent, and incidentally kicked off a war costing perhaps 60 million lives.

And on the other side:

A state which, in ensuring it's own survival (consider how many nations and terrorist organisations are devoted to the utter destruction of Israel) has killed innocents numbering in the (at most) tens of thousands, in the process of trying to PROTECT THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

Israel is far from perfect. Many things done by Israel have been distasteful, and a few have been disgusting to any right-thinking person. However, to compare Israel and Nazism is both absurd and disgusting, and shows two things.
One, a lack of understanding of the situation. Two, an irrational hatred of Israel.

Get a life, and read a newspaper (ideally not a government-sponsored Iranian one).

No, but it makes arguing that case in a thread comparing Israel to the Nazis douchebaggery of the worst sort.

Collective punishments
Denial of rights
Ghettoizing
Torturing
Imprisoning without charge or trial

If I understand how you are using the term douchebaggery
then I certainly would consider your argument to be douchebaggery
if you are in earnest in saying there is no comparison

Your numbers may be smaller but seriously it does not make Israel better.
Hitler after all killed fewer people overall than Stalin and it doesn't make
him anything better than a murderous irredeemable sod.You found the bean afterall... I was seriously expecting to explain it to you. Nice work. Enjoy life!

Collective punishments
Denial of rights
Ghettoizing
Torturing
Imprisoning without charge or trial

If I understand how you are using the term douchebaggery
then I certainly would consider your argument to be douchebaggery
if you are in earnest in saying there is no comparison

The biggest point, surely, being:
Deliberate, planned, industrialised extermination of an entire people.

That is the most important point. On all the other points there is a significant difference in degree, in that Nazi Germany practiced all of them on a much, much larger scale. Genocide, however, is a difference in kind, meaning it is impossible to equate the two with both a knowledge of the facts and a straight face.

O-kay...so a comparison is being run here between on the one side:

A state which aimed to ensure 'racial purity', and happily killed on an industrial scale, across half a continent, and incidentally kicked off a war costing perhaps 60 million lives.

And on the other side:

A state which, in ensuring it's own survival (consider how many nations and terrorist organisations are devoted to the utter destruction of Israel) has killed innocents numbering in the (at most) tens of thousands, in the process of trying to PROTECT THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

Israel is far from perfect. Many things done by Israel have been distasteful, and a few have been disgusting to any right-thinking person. However, to compare Israel and Nazism is both absurd and disgusting, and shows two things.
One, a lack of understanding of the situation. Two, an irrational hatred of Israel.

Get a life, and read a newspaper (ideally not a government-sponsored Iranian one).

Actually I believe that Israeli newspapers tend to accurately report Palestinian deaths its their American allies who wouldn't be able to justify their support
if their papers and broadcasters did. I am glad that you recognise that
Israel has committed some "disgusting" acts would you care to say
which ones you believe to qualify for that .

I do intensely dislike the Israeli regime, but it is not irrational, it is
because their behaviour is despicable.

You found the bean afterall... I was seriously expecting to explain it to you. Nice work. Enjoy life!

You seem to be missing the bean though, Israel less than the nazis, nazis less than the stalinists, all of an ilk and all criminals.

You seem to be missing the bean though, Israel less than the nazis, nazis less than the stalinists, all of an ilk and all criminals.
I don't think so... without a reason... they all stand in the same line. And if the reason is that
as portrayed in this thread... even more so.

well sure israel is evil and all but nazi like no maybe if you said nazis of the mid 30's then maybe but the nazi were still worse. Israel is only bad because it uses its force of arms to impose an occupation of land far beyond their original legal limit. If they went down to the land that was devoted to them in the 1948 un delegation which founded Israel I am certain that well over 70% of the terrorist around that area not in Iraq would loss Intreste in fighting. This would give back Jeruselem to the palestinians as it was supposed to be.

Collective punishments
Denial of rights
Ghettoizing
Torturing
Imprisoning without charge or trial



OK. But the Nazis? Come on, people, you don't need to touch the classic Israeli/Palestinian arguments with a ten-foot long pole here.

The Nazis were psychopathic maniacs who tried to conquer the world and almost succeeded. The Israelis kind of aren't. Not only are they not worse than the Nazis, they aren't worse than the Sudanese Arabs, who aren't worse than the Rwandan genocidaires, who aren't worse than the Khmer Rouge, who aren't worse than the Nazis.

Is there something about this forum that makes people lose all sense of proportion?

Piekrom;12043239']well sure israel is evil and all but nazi like no maybe if you said nazis of the mid 30's then maybe but the nazi were still worse. Israel is only bad because it uses its force of arms to impose an occupation of land far beyond their original legal limit. If they went down to the land that was devoted to them in the 1948 un delegation which founded Israel I am certain that well over 70% of the terrorist around that area not in Iraq would loss Intreste in fighting.

Is the united states "evil"? Is great britain "evil"? Is Poland "evil"?

What about spain? Italy? Portugal? Holland?

Borders of nations change, it happens. The united states increased its size by...what? 10 times in 200ish years?

Should they just...give it back?


This would give back Jeruselem to the palestinians as it was supposed to be.

Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, not a palestinian one

The worst that I can think of is Sabra/Shatila.
Point one, that was conducted by Lebanese Christians. At worst the Israelis stood by and let it happen - that is wrong, but not as bad as conducting it themselves.
Point two, the highest estimates for casualties run, I believe, into the low thousands. Again, terrible, but in comparison even with ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, it barely registers.

Piekrom,

What about the arabs who tried to steal the Israeli lands by force of arms and wound up losing territory because of these acts?

Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, not a palestinian one

And it would have been if the Arab States did not violate the UN Resolution making it so.

ah but the difference is on whose backs the land was gained us used its own forces as well as all the other examples. israel used the forces of the international community

Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city, not a palestinian oneYeah? I can't be arsed to find a link, so I'm sure you'll provide us one... Sounds like a cool idea.

I don't think so... without a reason... they all stand in the same line. And if the reason is that
as portrayed in this thread... even more so.

The Nazis held a callous disregard for the rights of anyone, particularly Jewish
people, it was that which led to them allowing themselves to commit
the depravities they committed.
It is the same disregard we see from the Israeli's towards the Palestinians
which leads me to say while they have not committed the extreme
atrocities of the Nazis they are in the same vein and things can only get worse.

Piekrom;12043264']ah but the difference is on whose backs the land was gained us used its own forces as well as all the other examples. israel used the forces of the international community

And yet, at the end of the Israeli war for independence, Jordan took the West Bank and Egypt took Gaza. So shall we condemn them to for taking land that did not belong to them as well?

Piekrom;12043264']ah but the difference is on whose backs the land was gained us used its own forces as well as all the other examples. israel used the forces of the international community

Y'know, I tried to understand this post so's I could respond to it, but it doesn't make sense. Could you rephrase it in grammatical sentences, please?

as jesus says, a sin wether big or small, is a still sin.

i'm pretty sure most people would agree murder is deffinitly one of the top ten.

The Nazis held a callous disregard for the rights of anyone, particularly Jewish
people, it was that which led to them allowing themselves to commit
the depravities they committed.
It is the same disregard we see from the Israeli's towards the Palestinians
which leads me to say while they have not committed the extreme
atrocities of the Nazis they are in the same vein and things can only get worse.

Israel does not consider Palestinians as sub-human. It considers many Palestinians as dangerous individuals.

That is a huuuuuge conceptual difference. If you can't see that there is a real problem.

this is what Israel and palistine should look like now
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png

OK. But the Nazis? Come on, people, you don't need to touch the classic Israeli/Palestinian arguments with a ten-foot long pole here.

The Nazis were psychopathic maniacs who tried to conquer the world and almost succeeded. The Israelis kind of aren't. Not only are they not worse than the Nazis, they aren't worse than the Sudanese Arabs, who aren't worse than the Rwandan genocidaires, who aren't worse than the Khmer Rouge, who aren't worse than the Nazis.

Is there something about this forum that makes people lose all sense of proportion?

I have never said they were worse, in fact I went to lengths to ensure
that my first post spoke only to that point before then going on to
say that their behaviour and actions belong to the same kind of behaviour
the Nazis exhibited.

Why is it there are a handful of countries in the world who when
accused of terrible behaviour justify themselves and have others justify
them by saying that they havent done some of the very very worst things
any man has ever done to any other human or if they have then not on the same scale. As if not being quite as bad as someone else makes the actions
wholesome and good.

In 1947, following increasing levels of violence from groups such as Irgun and Lehi, uncontrollable immigration from Europe and general war-weariness, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate.[12] The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land, and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.
Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#1948_War_of_Independence_and_migration)

Only wiki, but someone asked for a link, and on something like this it's accurate enough.

as jesus says, a sin wether big or small, is a still sin.

i'm pretty sure most people would agree murder is deffinitly one of the top ten.

Murder? Yes.

Killing? Not necessarily.

Israel does not consider Palestinians as sub-human. It considers many Palestinians as dangerous individuals.

That is a huuuuuge conceptual difference. If you can't see that there is a real problem.

Actually they don't state that they are subhuman
but their treatment of them shows that that is in fact how they view them.

The Nazis held a callous disregard for the rights of anyone, particularly Jewish
people, it was that which led to them allowing themselves to commit
the depravities they committed.
It is the same disregard we see from the Israeli's towards the Palestinians
which leads me to say while they have not committed the extreme
atrocities of the Nazis they are in the same vein and things can only get worse.Ah, ok. SO Haven't been committed the atrocities of the Nazis... so the Israelis are less ...worse? "Less worse" is half way, I believe. Meet me there?

Ah, ok. SO Haven't been committed the atrocities of the Nazis... so the Israelis are less ...worse? "Less worse" is half way, I believe. Meet me there?

I don't have to meet you there I've been standing here the whole time.

The Israelis haven't done any ovens yet nor as far as we know have they
done medical experiments on babies, gassed people in large quantities
or used anyones skin for decoration.
They seem to think that means they cannot be compared to the Nazis.

Piekrom;12043291']this is what Israel and palistine should look like now
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png

Then we had this little thing called a war in 1948 that ended that.

Oh and here is the current map lets compare shale we
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Is-map.PNG

old
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/1947PartitionPlan.PNG

You know why this argument is annoying?

Because I don't particularly like Israel. I consider the whole situation to be a mess, and believe that Israel is as culpable as anyone else.

However, the mere fact that I believe both sides are culpable, and both sides need to change a lot for there to be lasting peace, means I find myself forever arguing in favour of Israel. Because so many people consider Israel to be entirely at fault, or make deliberately inflammatory comparisons, (viz the OP), that I feel compelled to present the other side, some form of balance.

Piekrom;12043319']Oh and here is the current map lets compare shale we
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Is-map.PNG

old
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/1947PartitionPlan.PNG

And I suggest you learn that the Israelis did not gain the West Bank till after the 6 day war as well as the Gaza strip. They were owned by two different nations.

I don't have to meet you there I've been standing here the whole time.
Right. There's an old NSG saying... 'Never give an opponent the last word'... even if you suspect he was echoing you... I give no quarter. But I'm away.

You know why this argument is annoying?

Because I don't particularly like Israel. I consider the whole situation to be a mess, and believe that Israel is as culpable as anyone else.

However, the mere fact that I believe both sides are culpable, and both sides need to change a lot for there to be lasting peace, means I find myself forever arguing in favour of Israel. Because so many people consider Israel to be entirely at fault, or make deliberately inflammatory comparisons, (viz the OP), that I feel compelled to present the other side, some form of balance.

One is under occupation, has no freedom of movement, cannot work,
cannot even get to their farms.

One has the best equipped military outside of the US

There is not equality between the two sides.
When it comes to killing there is nothing like equality
and even when it comes to report the killings in America there is still
not even the equality of the reporting of the deaths.

Piekrom;12043319']Oh and here is the current map lets compare shale we
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Is-map.PNG

old
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/1947PartitionPlan.PNG

What's your point? There was a war in 1948 that made the first map moot. If you are upset about it then be upset that the Arabs residing there revolted and the newborn Israel's neighbors invaded. If they didn't get violent in '48 then we wouldn't be having a problem now.

One is under occupation, has no freedom of movement, cannot work, cannot even get to their farms.

One has the best equipped military outside of the US

There is not equality between the two sides.
When it comes to killing there is nothing like equality and even when it comes to report the killings in America there is still not even the equality of the reporting of the deaths.

One has, as part of a coalition of nations, attempted to utterly destroy the other. Ab initio. No retaliation required.

One at least attempts to avoid civilian casualties, rather than aiming for them because they're softer targets.

I could keep going all night, but instead I need sleep, and I'm not going to waste more valuable sleep time on picking holes in someone's *My First Anti-Israel Rant*
It's a precious moment for you, though when you get to making it the 1000th time, unchanged by objections and intervening facts, you might have forgotten this.

What's your point? There was a war in 1948 that made the first map moot. If you are upset about it then be upset that the Arabs residing there revolted and the newborn Israel's neighbors invaded. If they didn't get violent in '48 then we wouldn't be having a problem now.

And we do have a problem now.

Israelis have a problem now
The Palestinians have a problem now.

Instead of explaining why Israel went beyond its borders in 1948
and saying yah boo sucks so what

Resolving the problem so that Palestinians can have freedom of movement
and control over their own borders, economy etc and so that the problems
can be removed from everyone.

Germany which was a bigger threat to everyone than the Palestinians have
ever been to Israel also lost a war, yet Germany is now living very peacefully
indeed with its neighbours and is united once again.

I have never said they were worse, in fact I went to lengths to ensure
that my first post spoke only to that point before then going on to
say that their behaviour and actions belong to the same kind of behaviour
the Nazis exhibited.



The Nazis also gave out parking fines...does that mean parking fines are a tyrannical outrage? My point is, differences of degree matter, and you can get mixed up pretty quickly if you forget about them. The Israelis have acted in a brutal fashion, but this thread topic still has no reason for existing.

One has, as part of a coalition of nations, attempted to utterly destroy the other. Ab initio. No retaliation required.

One at least attempts to avoid civilian casualties, rather than aiming for them because they're softer targets.

I could keep going all night, but instead I need sleep, and I'm not going to waste more valuable sleep time on picking holes in someone's *My First Anti-Israel Rant*
It's a precious moment for you, though when you get to making it the 1000th time, unchanged by objections and intervening facts, you might have forgotten this.

Your little sign off seems to speak more to your arguments unchanged by
objections and facts than mine. Which is par for the course for people
who wish to hold others to higher standards than they apply to themselves
or their friends.

The Nazis also gave out parking fines...does that mean parking fines are a tyrannical outrage? My point is, differences of degree matter, and you can get mixed up pretty quickly if you forget about them. The Israelis have acted in a brutal fashion, but this thread topic still has no reason for existing.

Actually I think this thread is useful for existing
it means that everyone can see that there are people
who are simply anti jewish and pretending the Nazis were
somehow better than the Israelis are now

And those of us who are neither anti Jewish nor against a state of Israel
but who cannot remain silent as wicked deeds are done against
a people being treated as inferior and without rights.
Parking tickets don't enter into it, I am speaking to the dehumanising
of a people which allows any atrocity to be perpetrated against them
which is wrong even if the worst atrocities have not actually happened.
Once the attitude is in place, they can happen and the attitude is certainly
in place and firmly in Israel.

And we do have a problem now.

Israelis have a problem now
The Palestinians have a problem now.

Instead of explaining why Israel went beyond its borders in 1948
and saying yah boo sucks so what

Resolving the problem so that Palestinians can have freedom of movement
and control over their own borders, economy etc and so that the problems
can be removed from everyone.

Germany which was a bigger threat to everyone than the Palestinians have
ever been to Israel also lost a war, yet Germany is now living very peacefully
indeed with its neighbours and is united once again.

Nazis are of course worse then Israel. This is obvious and anyone who wants to debate this is either crazy or simply a bigot. When Israel start shoving Palestinians in ovens or lining them up to be shot then maybe I'll reconsider.

Palestinians would have freedom of movement if they didn't get violent in the first intifada. Before then there was freedom of movement from the territories to Israel itself. In order for things to go back to that, suicide bombers will have to stop attacking Israelis and Israel itself will have to show restraint in its reprisals. If they don't things will never change.

Sovietstan,

If your still reading through this thread at all would like to say a direct comment to you. I understand that you are a Muslim convert? Do you realize just because you have become Muslim you do not have to automatically put out anti-Jewish BS? Comparing Jews and Nazis. Are you kidding? As far as the Palestinians they are just as much to blame as anyone else. You may soon realize that if you study enough about the middle east and Islam. I ask you as a fellow Muslim to learn about the religion you converted to and to learn the history of the middle east. I am saying this so you do not help continue the ignorance around what Islam is.

Sovietstan,

If your still reading through this thread at all would like to say a direct comment to you. I understand that you are a Muslim convert? Do you realize just because you have become Muslim you do not have to automatically put out anti-Jewish BS? Comparing Jews and Nazis. Are you kidding? As far as the Palestinians they are just as much to blame as anyone else. You may soon realize that if you study enough about the middle east and Islam. I ask you as a fellow Muslim to learn about the religion you converted to and to learn the history of the middle east. I am saying this so you do not help continue the ignorance around what Islam is.

This is not anti-jewish. I respect jews and christians as the Qur'an tells me to do. They both believe in God and are natural allies of Muslims. But to this is not a thread against the jews, it is one against a state that happens to be jewish. The oppression of Muslims on their own land by non-Muslims is completely wrong. I would think you of all people would know this.

This is not anti-jewish. I respect jews and christians as the Qur'an tells me to do. They both believe in God and are natural allies of Muslims. But to this is not a thread against the jews, it is one against a state that happens to be jewish. The oppression of Muslims on their own land by non-Muslims is completely wrong. I would think you of all people would know this.I know I must help you brother. Just you tell me if you want to fly to Iraq, Iran or Jordan, I'll chip in. Of course, if you want to go to The Saudis, you're on your own.

This is not anti-jewish.
Comparing Israel to the Nazis is somehow not anti-Jewish? Making the most insulting(not to mention weakest)comparison you could possibly compare Israel to isn't anti-Jewish? You're a funny troll, you know that?
I respect jews and christians as the Qur'an tells me to do.
That "as the Qur'an tells me to" disturbs me. Are you saying you only respect Jews and Christians because the Koran tells you to?
They both believe in God and are natural allies of Muslims.
Although this quote is very self-serving, it does dismiss my fears from the last quote. Sorry.
But to this is not a thread against the jews, it is one against a state that happens to be jewish.
You seem to have missed quite a bit. I assure you that Iran does not want Israel to be wiped off the map because Israel did something to Iran, which, incidentally, is hard to wage war on without people knowing. Iran hates Israel because Iran has a concept in its head of the land belonging to Muslims, and it doesn't.
The oppression of Muslims on their own land by non-Muslims is completely wrong.
First of all, "by not-Muslims"? Would you say it was ok if Muslims oppressed other Muslims?
Second, I agree, if Muslims(scratch that, if people) were being oppessed on their own land. They're not being oppressed, and they're not on their own land, they're on Israel's, which used to be Britain's, which it won fair and square from the Ottoman Empire in World War I.

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is somehow not anti-Jewish? Making the most insulting(not to mention weakest)comparison you could possibly compare Israel to isn't anti-Jewish? You're a funny troll, you know that?

Hey may well be a troll but while the Nazis come out worse,
pretending a comparison cannot be made is simply nonsensical.



You seem to have missed quite a bit. I assure you that Iran does not want Israel to be wiped off the map because Israel did something to Iran, which, incidentally, is hard to wage war on without people knowing. Iran hates Israel because Iran has a concept in its head of the land belonging to Muslims, and it doesn't.

The fact that the quote does not mean wiping Israel of the face of
the map but more accurately would suggest the current Israeli
regime will one day be gone has been widely published.

Although ignored by those who choose to do so.

As the current Israeli regime is occupying territories, oppressing
people with killings, torture , curfews, seizing land and resources
imprisoning many without charge or trial and gradually
developing more and more facts on the ground to prevent ever
returning land is why a regime change is desirable.


First of all, "by not-Muslims"? Would you say it was ok if Muslims oppressed other Muslims?


Being oppressed by outsiders always galls more than being oppressed by
your own. Weird but true.


Second, I agree, if Muslims(scratch that, if people) were being oppessed on their own land. They're not being oppressed, and they're not on their own land, they're on Israel's, which used to be Britain's, which it won fair and square from the Ottoman Empire in World War I.

All of Germany was defeated in the 2nd world war, who is still in occupation
having won it fair and square?
International law before Israel won any land fair and square clearly
stated that land may not be gained by conquest.
and you just know I'm going to mention 242
and don't even think to hide behind the pretence that
it means anything other than all territories.
"no territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal"

That is NO territorial acquisition not most a little or some.

Anything else is just childish
Put cookies back in jar does not mean keep as many as you like
as long as a bit of one goes back in.


Thing is if Israel had done it earlier it may already have had years of
peace. The rest of Europe is certainly glad it treated Germany
in the way it did and hasn't had constant strife to deal with but has a peaceful trading partner and ally.
If current and past Israeli governments had wanted peace they would
have made the moves, ceased the settlements and negotiated in good faith.
Are things not bad enough already that Israel must constantly push to
make it worse, victimhood can only be played for so long when
the power balance is all in Israel's favour.

This is not anti-jewish. I respect jews and christians as the Qur'an tells me to do. They both believe in God and are natural allies of Muslims. But to this is not a thread against the jews, it is one against a state that happens to be jewish. The oppression of Muslims on their own land by non-Muslims is completely wrong. I would think you of all people would know this.

To be honest it was Jewish land before Muslim land. The holy Islamic city of Mecca was founded by Jews of all people. So really how far back does one need to go? The whole Palestinian problem has two wrong sides. Israel is only one of them. Also why is it that the Palestinians get so much attention over other oppressed peoples of the world? Hate would be a quick answer to that.

wow, and you get made at me for being non-partisan. Geez comparing the israelis to the nazi's...you are the perfect example of why most of the world doesnt trust islam.

To be honest it was Jewish land before Muslim land. The holy Islamic city of Mecca was founded by Jews of all people. So really how far back does one need to go? The whole Palestinian problem has two wrong sides. Israel is only one of them. Also why is it that the Palestinians get so much attention over other oppressed peoples of the world? Hate would be a quick answer to that.

I do find it ironic that people seem to care more for the Palestinians than they do for those down in Darfur or anywhere else where people are oppressed.

Just pointing out the recent bit of news about Israel not killing terrorists hiding in a house because civilians surrounded it ON PURPOSE, although Israel told them to leave. Oh, and this is not just a recent example--it happens all the time.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?



you would be a joke if you were at least funny.

To be honest it was Jewish land before Muslim land. The holy Islamic city of Mecca was founded by Jews of all people. So really how far back does one need to go? The whole Palestinian problem has two wrong sides. Israel is only one of them. Also why is it that the Palestinians get so much attention over other oppressed peoples of the world? Hate would be a quick answer to that.



I am sorry, but this is wrong. In that land BOTH Hebrew and non-Hebrew lived that land. No one was first. Both peoples are ancient and old. Actually Kurds get plenty of attention, just that the big time media is the ones that ignore the other oppressed peoples...

What happened to the good days when mindless rebellion meant sniffing glue, wearing surplus italian combat smocks and stealing cars?

I just don't get the converting to islam thing at all.

I am sorry, but this is wrong. In that land BOTH Hebrew and non-Hebrew lived that land. No one was first. Both peoples are ancient and old. Actually Kurds get plenty of attention, just that the big time media is the ones that ignore the other oppressed peoples...

As far as the big 3 goes I am right. Pagan religions do not count in this.

I do find it ironic that people seem to care more for the Palestinians than they do for those down in Darfur or anywhere else where people are oppressed.

Yes, it makes me wonder about people sometimes.

Piekrom;12043291']this is what Israel and palistine should look like now
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/UN_Partition_Plan_Palestine.png

And that has to be the shonkiest fucking country design I've ever seen. Says a lot about the UN.

What happened to the good days when mindless rebellion meant sniffing glue, wearing surplus italian combat smocks and stealing cars?

I just don't get the converting to islam thing at all.

Anyone who converts to Islam to rebel or to it for other people or for attention should just go back to whatever they did before. A conversion to Islam is not something to take lightly or to play around with. One must be fully committed to God and only God. Hypocrites will not win God's favour.

Anyone who converts to Islam to rebel or to it for other people or for attention should just go back to whatever they did before. A conversion to Islam is not something to take lightly or to play around with. One must be fully committed to God and only God. Hypocrites will not win God's favour.You can convert to Islam by saying one sentence - "Allah is god and muhammad is his prophet". People were forced to say this at knifepoint often, and were considered muslims. Isn't that the point of jihad? I really don't see how you can take conversion so seriously if all it takes is one sentence and coersion.
anyway. religion is silly.

To be honest it was Jewish land before Muslim land. The holy Islamic city of Mecca was founded by Jews of all people. So really how far back does one need to go? The whole Palestinian problem has two wrong sides. Israel is only one of them. Also why is it that the Palestinians get so much attention over other oppressed peoples of the world? Hate would be a quick answer to that.

1st I don't think Palestinians get more attention than other oppressed people because of some anti-jewish nonsense. I think it has more to do with the fact Middle gets more attention as a whole than say Kashmir or Chechnya.

Also it has been Muslim land(both Palestine and Mecca) for thousands of years. So how are Muslims in Palestine wrong for defending their land and their people?

You can convert to Islam by saying one sentence - "There is no God but God and Muhammed(pbuh) is his prophet and his servant".
fixed, and its not really considered official until you go to Mosque and say it in front of other Muslims. I had to and every Muslim convert must.

People were forced to say this at knifepoint often, and were considered muslims.
when and where?

Isn't that the point of jihad?
No. The point of greater Jihad is to struggle to make yourself a better person. The point of the lesser Jihad is to defend your village or nation against aggression by unbelievers or the defense of people in another land calling out for help against aggression. If it is not either of these cases, it would not be a justifiable act of Jihad.

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?

You're an idiot.

You're an idiot.

and your a n00b whom I've never seen before. Your point?

when and where?This is just one example I found on wiki.
Despite the Quran's prohibition on forceful conversion and of tolerance of the People of the Book, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in [9]Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and [10]Baghdad (1333 and 1344).
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:NxHTWG1D24gJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism+forceful+conversion+to+islam&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2


No. The point of greater Jihad is to struggle to make yourself a better person. The point of the lesser Jihad is to defend your village or nation against aggression by unbelievers or the defense of people in another land calling out for help against aggression. If it is not either of these cases, it would not be a justifiable act of Jihad.If it's just about defending yourself, then all jihad is is war. Once you put "unbelievers" into the equation, you have religiously motivated war.

You're an idiot.You're from West Texas.

The isrealies are worse as despite being tortured and humiliated by the nazis they operate the same ironnfisted reigim on the peopl of palastine. They rely on there holly book and post WW2 laws to ligve in someone elses country but instead of being considerate and listening to the people they decided to destroy them. They kill children who through stones at them and invade a country killing thousands purely becuase two soldiers are captured as a strike againsts the terrible conditions faced by lebanese POW's. We should not be fighting so called terrorists llike "hezbolar and hamas" instead we should help the to build lasting and sustainablee governments. Hitler was aterrible man but at least in the last hour of war he did not drop hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs designed to hit children specifically. Israel are onl;y seen as the good side as they are backed by america butr truelyt the are the worst people, and the true terrorists. they should not behave like this as they have suffered persecution and hate and so should know what it is like, and their crimes are particularly bad becuase they are in somone elses country. I feel the Instead of the IDF and mosad ruling the country then hamas should and thus take back what is riightfully theres as the peoiple of palistine are currently trapped and abused purely beacuse trhey fight to live iin their own country

out
The Afghan Rebel :mp5:
(14 england)

Both regimes carried out an occupation they deemed as just, but the international community did not. Both setup ghettos, roadblocks and curfews for the occupied, those who break curfew get shot in the street with tanks. Both were racist regimes who operate(d) with a sense of superiority. Both committed mass killings and slaughters including of women and children. Both used the holocaust as justification or propaganda for their actions. Both are hated by the international community and invaded their neighbours. And both are feircely militaristic.

Its a very close race but the Nazis haven't been around for 60 years and only lasted around 20. The regime of Israel is still around and has been for 60 years. Its close, but I say Israel takes this one. your thoughts?Agreed. Despite the vastly different numbers of victims, injustice remains injustice. And in the case of Israel also those countries who intentionally voted against the humans living in the land and for the UN plan to divide Palestine, carry a considerable part of the guilt of the death and displacement of Arabs. But the West has always been known to be anti-Arabic. Ever since Europe attacked the Arabs in its crusades, the West has demonized them and looked down on them. That has never changed. This is the real anti-Semitism. And in the last 100 years the West has come to further abusing Arabs by endorsing oppressive regimes in the petty states that the West managed to create in the region after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire. The reason for that of course is oil.
There never was a real reason for giving Jews a territory. If Jews cannot get along with everybody else, it's their fault and not everybody else's. They have to adjust their religion and pseudo-ethnic pride instead of everybody else having to put up with their weird ideology of being something special.

I've noticed that most of the things people are talking about, are in facts historical occurrences... and how things should have gone differently in their opinion.
Well, to that I say, what's the use? things been done for better or worse.... even if many here have a somewhat inaccurate perception of historical events.

And also, I often wonder how many people rely on certain sources with a bias to get their own facts instead of taking all the sources into consideration to create a fusion of information in order to get a better depiction of reality.
I mean, sure what the Pro israeli side say isn't all together accurate, but here's a news flash neither does the other side.
Basically, everything written here is in fact a verdict before examining the facts to the fullest and gathering all the evidence needed... It's like people of old looked at the moon and said that it is a light source on its own, when in fact on a more close inspection it isn't so.
So please, before executing the defendant, look beneath the surface in order to find the truth, and not as it is represented by secondary and tertiary sources.

You're an idiot.

and your a n00b whom I've never seen before. Your point?

that after a few hundred post he'll no longer be a n00b.
You on the other hand......

Isreal has done some shitty things and to a degree still is.

But to ask who's worse nazies or isreal is idiotic. Forget the fact that your comparing a political party to a nation, at no point has isreal tried to 'cleanse' the land as the nazies did.

there was only a threat to israel, when the jews went over there. israel is not defending it self. they took land.

You are right, everyone who took land by force should return it.
oh well it means Arabs will have to go back to Arabian pennisula and leave north africa, middle east and mid asia. Tough luck.
Or do you think that they HAVE right to stay there for being there so long?
Well in that case all Israelis have to do is stay there, and you will admit its theirs, since its about time spent there.

You are right, everyone who took land by force should return it.
oh well it means Arabs will have to go back to Arabian pennisula and leave north africa, middle east and mid asia. Tough luck.
Or do you think that they HAVE right to stay there for being there so long?
Well in that case all Israelis have to do is stay there, and you will admit its theirs, since its about time spent there.

You know, in order to illustrate the point you can also demend that british people of norman or saxon decent should return to the mainland and leave england, or better yet, all the non-indians leave the americans.... but the indians should than leave back to asia.... hack, let us all return to africa.

This is just one example I found on wiki.


Despite the Quran's prohibition on forceful conversion and of tolerance of the People of the Book, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in [9]Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and [10]Baghdad (1333 and 1344).


So the most recent example of forced conversions you have are from over 200 years ago? Hell - some of these are from the better part of a thousand years ago!

Given that you are not providing examples from the last 8 generations or so of humanity is it fair to say it appears they have moved on a bit and that the religion today is not the same as the religion of 200 200 years ago?


I wonder... If a palastinian converts to judaism what happens to them? Are they then a Jew? Or are they still a Palastinian in the eyes of the law? Are they then allowed to travel to the west bank and come back for example? Or is it the race rather than the religion that is important?




NOTE: I DO NOT THINK ISRAEL IS DOING ANYTHING EVEN COMPARABLE TO THE WORST OF THE NAZIS.

You are right, everyone who took land by force should return it.
oh well it means Arabs will have to go back to Arabian pennisula and leave north africa, middle east and mid asia. Tough luck.
Or do you think that they HAVE right to stay there for being there so long?
Well in that case all Israelis have to do is stay there, and you will admit its theirs, since its about time spent there.

A point about this: If you promote that the land is theirs by right of conquest then you also have to concede that it is the right of other people to take it from them by force. That they only hold the right to the land while they have the force to keep it. Might is right and all...

Live by the sword...

Currently, yes. However, it is still in the holy books.

And I'm sure you've noticed American Fundies who'd like to reinatate those laws.

A point about this: If you promote that the land is theirs by right of conquest then you also have to concede that it is the right of other people to take it from them by force. That they only hold the right to the land while they have the force to keep it. Might is right and all...

Live by the sword...

No what I am saying is that you cannot evict over 6 milion people because you belive they took land by force.
And if you belive that lands should not be taken by force and given back, are you ready to move, beause I'm pretty sure you are not aborigine.
And if anyone Arabs have no right to complain about their land being taken since of all nationalities today its them that spread most by conquest.
Someone asked about when where people forced to convert by knifepont. Well it was swordpoint but I'd reccomend to him to look at balkan conquests by Ottoman, Egypt conquest by Arabs and especially bloody conquests in india where milions of holy texts were destroyed and temples razed, because unlike people of the book (jews and christians) politeists don't have religious rights as far Islam is concerned. And everywhere Arabs went people who were not Islamic got 3 times as big tax as their Muslim neighbours.
When suddenly your religion is being taxed and you cannot feed your family because of it, so you have to convert of starve... is that not swordpoint conversion? I assure you tax collectors of the time had swords.
Before I'm attacked, Christians were no better, if anything they were worse. When Chrisitans conquered Jerusalem they slaughtered Muslims and burned Jews alive in their Sinagoge. Saladin when conqered Jerusalem again alowed everyone to leave. But Muslims cannot claim there was never forced conversions.

Let me make myself clear. I am not anti Islamic. I'm not pro Jewish. And I don't like Christian fanatics very much either.
In Palestinian conflict I have long ago took "plague on both their houses" view.
Jews say they want to limit civilian casulties, yet they seem perfectly happy when they kill one terrorist and fifty children. They claim they will recognise Arabic state, but they show no great willingness to do it, and don't speak of boarders at all.
And Arabs don't even pretend they want to limit anything, they target civilians and they don't even recognise the right of Israel to exist.
They both act horribly but Arabs tend to be little more honest about it.

Much as I dislike Israel, I've seen no evidence that they are anywhere near as bad as Nazi Germany. Not even in 3 times the number of years. Of course, I live in the USA, Israel's biggest ally, so the news I'm fed may be skewed.

Isreal has done some shitty things and to a degree still is.

But to ask who's worse nazies or isreal is idiotic. Forget the fact that your comparing a political party to a nation,If it is a nation, where was it 100 years ago? It's only a group of religiously motivated folks. at no point has isreal tried to 'cleanse' the land as the nazies did.Going to a foreign land to live there regardless who already lives there is cleansing. Or how else should a jewish family live on the land that fed an Arab family before?

i would same they are pretty much the same in accuse and intention. they both wanted simular things. however the nazis. were better at it, so they managed to kill more in a shorter time. if israel continues, the death toll will start to look close.
but so far nazis are worse.

agree

If it is a nation, where was it 100 years ago? It's only a group of religiously motivated folks.

Hardly, the people who created israel were in fact secular socialists, religion wasn't much of a factor, I don't mean that it wasn't there, but they weren't religiously motivated, more like that wanted to escape the prosecution that the russians were enacting.

they are both of a similar breed and lets not mistake Israelis for Zionists. There are plenty of Non-Zionist Israelis and Jews around the world. The Israelis are cleverer and more intelligent than the Nazis ever were. They use the international community to their advantage. Hitler rejected it. Israel is very careful about how much it does but yet they are doing a lot of the same things in principle. That is the difference.

The fact that this is actually being debated is proof that most of NSG is fucking retarded.

Hardly, the people who created israel were in fact secular socialists, religion wasn't much of a factor, I don't mean that it wasn't there, but they weren't religiously motivated, more like that wanted to escape the prosecution that the russians were enacting.

Which is why the majority of zionists who went to form Israel were in England and America.

Hardly, the people who created israel were in fact secular socialists, religion wasn't much of a factor, I don't mean that it wasn't there, but they weren't religiously motivated, more like that wanted to escape the prosecution that the russians were enacting.Still no nation.

1st I don't think Palestinians get more attention than other oppressed people because of some anti-jewish nonsense. I think it has more to do with the fact Middle gets more attention as a whole than say Kashmir or Chechnya.

Speaking of Kashmir, did anyone here what the President of Pakistan said in regards to Kashmir?

Also it has been Muslim land(both Palestine and Mecca) for thousands of years. So how are Muslims in Palestine wrong for defending their land and their people?

And it was Jewish land before the Muslims took it over. So how are Jews wrong for defending their land and their people? And I do not consider blowing up civilians defending their people.

when and where?

So you do not know your history after all. Not surprising really.

If it is a nation, where was it 100 years ago? It's only a group of religiously motivated folks. Going to a foreign land to live there regardless who already lives there is cleansing. Or how else should a jewish family live on the land that fed an Arab family before?

Umm it is called paying for it? Yea I thought that did not cross your mind. As to livinging in a foreign land and living there, that is not technicly cleansing it.

Still no nation.

And no palestine as well... in fact the majority of arab nations were in facts nations who were created by france and england post world war.

Umm it is called paying for it? Yea I thought that did not cross your mind. As to livinging in a foreign land and living there, that is not technicly cleansing it.

some was paid for - but nothing even approaching the size of Israel now.

In the years before Israel was created, and shortly after, there was a concentrated effort by Zionist groups to drive the Palastinians off the land either by threat of violence, by actual violence against individuals or by exterminating entire villages to motivate palastinians in the surrounding villages to flee for their lives. These activities can fairly be called cleansing.

In a similar way the wall currently under construction and checkpoints set up in the West Bank to make it very hard for palastinians to settle or live in parts of the west bank while moving into parts the palastinians have been puched out of can also fairly be called cleansing.

Likewise a large portion of the settlements in the West Bank were built on either private land taken from palastinains, or land that was not property of Israel, once built palastinians are not allowed into the area, this can be called cleansing.

Again - in parts of Jereuslem Palastinians are not allowed to by property, to preserve the 'Jewishness' of the area. This also means that a Palastinian who owns a property in the area from before the laws cannot sell it to a palastinian - so it is also about 'improving' the ethnic purity of the areas. This is also fairly described as cleansing.

And no palestine as well... in fact the majority of arab nations were in facts nations who were created by france and england post world war.They were and are Arabs. A real ethnic group, a nation. What you speak of are the petty states that were created by the League of Nations.

This thread has been stamped as "Pointless Trolling" by the Sarcasm Master (TM).
Just for arguments sake, how about a child?

Unfortunately for the children, Palestinians are now training and brainwashing them too, and giving them weapons. Children are much more capable of killing if they are trained to, simply because the whole maturity thing and the greater concepts of morality it brings up hasn't happened yet, and children are capable of more cruelty than anyone I know. Fairly soon Israeli troops will be torn between getting blown up and getting murdered by the international community for killing children.

Nevermind that a large number of suicide bombers are comparative kids these days (15-19 years old)....

Children are not innocents. Sorry to shatter your nicely ordered concepts of morality, but there it is.

Next argument for me to witheringly demolish with cutting verbiage?

Both regimes ... blah blah blah...

Nazis.

Duh.

Nice racist rant, though...

This thread has been stamped as "Pointless Trolling" by the Sarcasm Master (TM).


Unfortunately for the children, Palestinians are now training and brainwashing them too, and giving them weapons. Children are much more capable of killing if they are trained to, simply because the whole maturity thing and the greater concepts of morality it brings up hasn't happened yet, and children are capable of more cruelty than anyone I know. Fairly soon Israeli troops will be torn between getting blown up and getting murdered by the international community for killing children.

Nevermind that a large number of suicide bombers are comparative kids these days (15-19 years old)....

Children are not innocents. Sorry to shatter your nicely ordered concepts of morality, but there it is.

Next argument for me to witheringly demolish with cutting verbiage?

So kids who may have been brainwashed are legitmite targets?

How about these youngsters?

http://web5.maktoob.com/blog_maktoob/user_files/Donia_elhob/images/israeli-girls-bombs3_580x435.jpg

http://planetquo.net/War%20Pigs/Dead%20Kids/2/israeli_girl_gift_01.jpg

You if don't think Israel cries holocuast to justify their actions your completely insane.

"You if don't think?"

Norman, coordinate...

there is no point having a conversation with someone that thinks using clusters bombs is ok.

Cluster bombs are a very effective area denial weapon. What's wrong with them?

israel kill random children and innocent adults.

Hardly.

Yes, people have died at the hands of Israel. But, out of defensive acts.

If all surrounding nations - and many others - didn't have a goal of eradicating Israel and there were no terrorist bombings or killings in Israel, Israel would be killing no one.

It's just a shame when nations defend themselves, isn't it?

some was paid for - but nothing even approaching the size of Israel now.

Brief summary of Israel:

- 3000+ years ago, assorted Hebrew tribes unite, fight off random Arabs, Hittites, Akkadians, Egyptians, Phoenicians et al. Form nation (Kingdom of Judea or some such thing).

- around 2500 years ago: Hebrews conquered by Persians.

- Shortly thereafter: Persians conquered by Greeks.

- Shortly thereafter: Greeks conquered by Romans.

- Romans expel Hebrews.

- Turks and Muslims conquer Romans.

- Hebrews move to Babylon or Eastern Europe or something.

- Hebrews displaced for a thousand years or so.

- Crusades occur; Europeans take over part of what is now Israel, and Lebanon, and Syria, and turn them into European-style states.

- Turks reconquer European-style states.

- Turks choose the wrong side in World War I, get pwnt. Ottoman Empire falls and its territories are divided up. Britain gets Palestine.

- Holocaust occurs.

- Jews upset because of Holocaust (for some strange reason), request state of their own.

- Zionists purchase some land from Britain; the UN gives them the rest. Area is roughly equivalent to Israel today except for the West Bank, Golan Heights, southern Negev and Gaza Strip.

- Arabs don't like it and attack Israel repeatedly, get pwnt same. In each defensive war Israel expands its territory until it has what it owns today.

- Israel is therefore a legitimate nation because it either bought or fought for most of what it holds today.

Ca suit.

difference is scale not motivation. the nazis also believed they were being attacked.

ppbbtthh...

No, they didn't. They pretended they were being attacked.

Haven't heard of lebensraum, have you...

So kids who may have been brainwashed are legitmite targets?

How about these youngsters?


Er... I don't see anyone going and shooting those youngsters... explain? :confused:

they could try alot harder.

Yeah.

They could surrender, right?

you pro-israelis are just like the fourth holy reich, reality just flies out of the window and you just decide to ingnor facts. the purpose of cluster bombs is not to level the amount of deaths but increase as much as posible at random targets.

Speaking of ignorant...

kids think these are footballs for christ sake kids!

So, Palestinian kids are idiots?

"Hey! Lookit all the metal footballs! Where'd they come from? I dunno, let's go kick some!"

Enough with these toolish threads. They are getting old. Nobody cares that you have "found Allah" or whatever it is you geitenneukers do.:rolleyes:

This thread is OBVIOUS flaming/flamebait. Nobody in their right mind would say Israel is worse than the Nazis. Now run along now before I draw a picture of your God and send it to you.

when my country was miltarily active, not once did we kill children, not once, did we kill at random, not once did we cause a death to a civilian on enemy soil.

One word; Dresden.