NationStates Jolt Archive

]I am sorry this has been a frustrating experience for some. The mods had to make a tough call in a difficult situation, and they made a sensible decision: to prevent anyone taking advantage of accidental circumstances. I don't criticise any of them for this decision, and I don't think anyone else seriously can, either. It's a judgement call.

But I look at this as one of those little interesting oddities that life occasionally throws up. They are part of the real world, and so can be part of the game, too. So the temporary moderator-imposed ban invasion has been lifted.

I am not going to deliberately duplicate these circumstances, because they should never have arisen in the first place. This wasn't planned! It was a bizarre accident. By rights the window of opportunity should never have been open. But it was. Then it wasn't. Now it is again. It closes in about an hour.


OK. I understand your position. The side effect is we aren't to listen to the Mods anymore? Perticularily when they use threats of expulsion? All we ever hear from them is frustration because they are questioned and flamed. We try to act honorably with them and we just got screwed, dinner would've been nice first. You realize the damage you're causing here? You'd of been better off starting them off as they were. Franco gained no endorsements on this. If he did it was negligible. Corinthe managed to find her number in 24 hours. Franco can't hold the place without ejection controls I rather think that was proven. So who was at the disadvantage? Most anti Franco nations are on a ban list. This was a NS reaction, might want to listen to what the game at large has to say here.

This debate has been done. Come one!! I need 5 more endorsemtns!

I wouldn't ask the Mods to do that....even though they may appear unbiased they really do try to not take sides and I will respect them for that.

Just try to get as much support as you can and we can displace Francos, and if the Majority of the Pacific don't like the outcome they can always *shutter* reelect him.

I'm not talking about taking sides. I'm talking about holding themselves accountable for what they've done here tonight.

A moratorium on ejections and bans would now be appropriate. The fact is Corinthe had the numbers to take the delegacy before Neut's intervention. Now that violet has essentially ruled the invasion legal, Corinthe and Francos should be allowed a fair fight.

And you shall not have them! My puppet, Wabu-Dhati has arrived, and several of the members of Evility will follow should you win.

I wouldn't ask the Mods to do that....even though they may appear unbiased they really do try to not take sides and I will respect them for that.

Just try to get as much support as you can and we can displace Francos, and if the Majority of the Pacific don't like the outcome they can always *shutter* reelect him.

I'm not talking about taking sides. I'm talking about holding themselves accountable for what they've done here tonight.

I suppose the moderators feel like they're above being held accountable for their actions....

Wouldn't it be nice if they responded?

let it go for now. get some sleep, get some breakfast. come back in a few hours.

Didn't Neut destroy our chances at taking back the Pacific last time too? I just love all these little mistakes and turnarounds.

Way to go moderators! Make one decision and lose Corinthe just enough endorsements to maintain the power of your pet. Then reverse your decision when it's too late to recover from that so that you can maintain the illusion of impartiality.

let it go for now. get some sleep, get some breakfast. come back in a few hours.

Think about different timezones :)

And yes, the situation was a total mess. It wasn't fair before today, wasn't fair today, and won't be fair tomorrow. That's the game you're playing, by design.

Ballotonia

Mighty sunny in the rejected realms this time of year aint it? Hey, thanks Mods! Wish I could show you what I think of you from the bottom of my heart, or somewhere in the local.

Did anyone else notice that several nations came in at the last minute to endorse Francos, then when he assumed the delegacy, immediately departed to their own region?

I refer to Kroatische, Walesa president, Neo s nu, and Wealthy Negroes. There may have been others too, but these 4 were enough to tip the delegacy in his favour.

This is an open and shut case of cheating.

Well done mods. Good show. :roll:

let it go for now. get some sleep, get some breakfast. come back in a few hours.

Think about different timezones :)

And yes, the situation was a total mess. It wasn't fair before today, wasn't fair today, and won't be fair tomorrow. That's the game you're playing, by design.

Ballotonia

No offense, but I don't buy into that "tough luck" bull load. It was perfect for us, today, right up until a certain moderator stepped in and broke it up and gave us empty promises. Couple of hours later, it's reversed, and we're told IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN THE AMERICAS that we have one hour to go back at it. Brilliant.

That's not tough luck. That's piss poor management with no consideration for the wronged parties.

Yes, I'm sure I sound like a wet blanket. I do need to sleep, after all; nearly four in the AMs here. But I'm just too damn mad.

Mods are the messengers. Violet tore up the agreement. Direct your rage there. Neut was acting in good faith.

They tore up the rules and threw off the best chance yet to end theis months-long grief of the Pacific.

I hate to have to say it but today would have been a good day to have an active player who was an invader operating as a Mod, someone who know the rules and how to interpret them.

Indeed. This was a debacle.
And notice how Francos uses this time to eject just about anyone he pleases. People who didn't even endorse Corinthe.

Well people, we get what we pay for. It's not fair to expect a free game to be run professionally. Or even fairly.

TigersPaw9 wasn't even in the UN and got booted, guess Francos didn't like her telling him to kiss her ass. 8) There will be another day, but the facts are clear that it was in the bag today, and mod interference is what stopped it in it's tracks. What a great job rebounding to get only 2 endorsements shy thought eh?
Justice will prevail another day. And hopefully no mods will play mind games on that day as was done today.

Just asking - since when did anyone ever get the impression that life was fair and impartial? It never was, it almost definitely never will.

That said, try again later. I'm sure that you can catch Franco unawares. If I recall, Europe and Australia have considerable numbers of Players, perhaps it may be in your best interests to find some potential soldiers there? America isn't the only part of the world that counts - I'm from Australia myself. A concerted, International effort is sure to succeed, eventually. At any rate, Dictators die eventually...

You fools! You know not what you have done!

After reviewing this debate, I must express my extreme displeasure at the activities of the moderators this evening. The policy regarding the Pacific has always been lassez faire, and I believe that that policy should have been continued.

~Goobergunchia

Go back whence you came, treacherous vermin from the shadows!

*cough*flaming*cough*

The part that enrages me the most is the fact Violet sends in Neut and Steph to stop what was going on instead of doing it themselves. At least if you were going to get someone to lie (I don't think Neut has) you should've done it yourself. This is the second time Neut is getting the finger pointed at him for handing the Pacific back to Franco on a plate and its not entirely fair to him. For you to expose your moderation staff to fury and allegations of corrruption is at best cowardly. This solution was a joke. I really don't care what the debate was behind closed doors or how painful it was the fact remains you've broken trust with us twice in one day. Sal's comments on the fact Admin would not be intervening destroyed so no official record remains and Neut promising us that the conditions would be replicated if we all took a breather. We've seen you're not above shredding documents and lying to get out of whatever you feel you need to. It lacks honor, dignity and I'm incredibly disgusted since from now on whenever I see something from a mod I have to question 'how is this going to change?' You have effectively told hundreds of players not to trust the mods and stand their ground when being warned since it could be a ruse. The forums should get interesting. As for the Mods, I can appreciate the difficulty of your situation. However, for you to plead that what can you do you can't countermand Violet is in my opinion bollocks. For you to continue moderating when you're being used like that makes me sick. Must be nice to know that for all the abuse you get to put up with your boss really cares for you. No worries, after the events of a few hours ago I realize the game is incredibly corrupted and its not just the rantings of a few malcontents. I've actually seen the double dealing first hand. I'm going to retreat to the Heartland and RP there with the rest of them since they were usually smarter than me and preferred isolationism before I dragged them all into this. Wish you had the window seat next to me on Air Francos to the RR Violet. Then you'd know how betrayed we all feel.

The thing that gets me is the MOds said build an army and take it back. We did not once but twice. Even while Franco continued his usual griefing. And now because of whatever reason the rules changed..funny how they ALWAYS lean in favor of FS.

Point is we did (no matter how hard) as you suggested and still the Nation in question is guilty of greifing and now a MOD gets involved and kills the whole thing.

We as players can not defeat both a greifer and the MODs.

Now MODs I relieze this is a volentary thing for you. Just stay out of it or at least treat the issue fairly.

The part that enrages me the most is the fact Violet sends in Neut and Steph to stop what was going on instead of doing it themselves. At least if you were going to get someone to lie (I don't think Neut has) you should've done it yourself. This is the second time Neut is getting the finger pointed at him for handing the Pacific back to Franco on a plate and its not entirely fair to him. For you to expose your moderation staff to fury and allegations of corrruption is at best cowardly. This solution was a joke. I really don't care what the debate was behind closed doors or how painful it was the fact remains you've broken trust with us twice in one day. Sal's comments on the fact Admin would not be intervening destroyed so no official record remains and Neut promising us that the conditions would be replicated if we all took a breather. We've seen you're not above shredding documents and lying to get out of whatever you feel you need to. It lacks honor, dignity and I'm incredibly disgusted since from now on whenever I see something from a mod I have to question 'how is this going to change?' You have effectively told hundreds of players not to trust the mods and stand their ground when being warned since it could be a ruse. The forums should get interesting. As for the Mods, I can appreciate the difficulty of your situation. However, for you to plead that what can you do you can't countermand Violet is in my opinion bollocks. For you to continue moderating when you're being used like that makes me sick. Must be nice to know that for all the abuse you get to put up with your boss really cares for you. No worries, after the events of a few hours ago I realize the game is incredibly corrupted and its not just the rantings of a few malcontents. I've actually seen the double dealing first hand. I'm going to retreat to the Heartland and RP there with the rest of them since they were usually smarter than me and preferred isolationism before I dragged them all into this. Wish you had the window seat next to me on Air Francos to the RR Violet. Then you'd know how betrayed we all feel.

Timezones.

...

Many of the mods live in The United States. [violet] and Max Barry live in Australia. [violet] didn't notice this situation until very late and had considerably less time to make a decision than the rest of the Mod Squad. Consequently, we mods had to make a decision on our own without [violet]'s input; we are neither telepaths nor augurs and cannot predict how [violet] is going to decide on such an unforseen situation. Consequently, I would appreciate it if no further accusations of backstabbing were made against [violet].

"Think about it for a moment."

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

Well then make a decision and stick by it, or stay out of it.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

There was no reason why Francos could not simply have challenged me, but instead he decided to whine to the mods, who where impartial as ever.

Why should he have to? You only got a chance because of a game glitch, not by outplaying him.

but francos never did anything to keep his endorsements. had he actually played along with the glitch (life _is_ full of surprises) I would accept that statement. francos did not play his way into power this time.

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them.

I'm not arguing in favor of a 'de-throwning' of FS. As I've said before (and you apparently missed) I have nothing against FS in person. As far as I care they make him a Mod. FS didn't wrong me in any way. I've been arguing what I perceive to be a flaw in the design of the game. In that regard I see FS's reign more as a symptom of said flaw than anything I should blame him for. It's just the way the game is right now.

Alright. I, wrongly, assumed that your reasons to be against such powers in a feeder region was because of a personal issue with the ruling of FS. I believe this to be the case for most who have expressed a similar opinion. I will try to recall your unique perspective against the power in the future, sorry if I misdirect in the future though as I don’t always remember everything.


And, Ackbar, I haven't seen or heared you being involved in any activity aimed at 'de-throwning' FS either.

Ballotonia


If you want to see it on-site, this very thread is a good place to find it, I long posted for those interested in over-throwing FS to contact me. Which is fine that you didn’t see it, but it is there, absolutely.

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them. If you really believe players should take action, and want to stop his current method of rule, do something. Don’t just discuss it in the forums.

Do something??? Is that all you can say. OK, let's take some actions. Now, since you're such a smart-ass, what do you suggest we do?

Thank you for finding my posterior to be intelligent. As to what can be done, back reading this thread would do you good.

You need to get 150 people together, all in the same time-zone (most people can't be on-line in the middle of the night) all active on the same moment, all endorsing one person at the right time.

This has been tried before, and failed. It's impossible.

What you list here is the tiny action. The tiny action can be done easily, as long as you don’t care how effective the reulsts are. The real test to such an action isn’t getting people to go into the region and endorse another person (and they do not need to be in the same time zone), the real issue is planning and co-ordinating. And this is what had been done thus far to only a substandard level.

Today was a sad, sad day for democracy.
I've lost respect for Neut.

Because he was attempting to keep people from taking advantage of a design flaw?



]Oh, just to clarify:

The current situation is unusual, won't be repeated, wasn't planned, and won't be interfered with one way or the other by moderators.

There is currently 1 hr and 5 minutes left until the start of the daily update.

Life is full of little surprises! :)

Does this mean that if game glitches are used to the advantage of invaders in the future, there will be no admin/mod intervention. I mean specifically if a situation like this shoud arise, not some other type of glitch. I am curious if this was just to give one group some hope (The Pers), or if there is to be consistency with this. I don’t love this, that a glitch can be manipulated, but would hope to see rules be flexible but consistent.



Also, Reporting a technical glitch with the game is now a bad thing?à
You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

There was no reason why Francos could not simply have challenged me, but instead he decided to whine to the mods, who where impartial as ever.

]I am sorry this has been a frustrating experience for some. The mods had to make a tough call in a difficult situation, and they made a sensible decision: to prevent anyone taking advantage of accidental circumstances. I don't criticise any of them for this decision, and I don't think anyone else seriously can, either. It's a judgement call.

But I look at this as one of those little interesting oddities that life occasionally throws up. They are part of the real world, and so can be part of the game, too. So the temporary moderator-imposed ban invasion has been lifted.

I am not going to deliberately duplicate these circumstances, because they should never have arisen in the first place. This wasn't planned! It was a bizarre accident. By rights the window of opportunity should never have been open. But it was. Then it wasn't. Now it is again. It closes in about an hour.

I do like this explanation, but do again, hope it is to be somewhat consistent in the future.


Did anyone else notice that several nations came in at the last minute to endorse Francos, then when he assumed the delegacy, immediately departed to their own region?

I refer to Kroatische, Walesa president, Neo s nu, and Wealthy Negroes. There may have been others too, but these 4 were enough to tip the delegacy in his favour.

This is an open and shut case of cheating.

Find the FAQ against this. You won’t. A person is allowed to endorse someone, and a person is allowed to switch regions.


The part that enrages me the most ... Sal's comments on the fact Admin would not be intervening destroyed so no official record remains and Neut promising us that the conditions would be replicated if we all took a breather. We've seen you're not above shredding documents and lying to get out of whatever you feel you need to... Then you'd know how betrayed we all feel.

I understand you are upset, and won’t touch on some of that. To me one of the more valid arguments on this whole thing is one you just touched. I am not sure why it benefits anyone to pretend like this issue didn’t occur, that things weren’t discussed on both sides. And while this thread is still open, I can in no way see how it is advantageous to have deleted the thread in question, in which both sides were discussing how to handle the odd glitch. I understand that it could still cause people to be angry, but I think inferring that the thread never existed will do that all the same.

Today was a sad, sad day for democracy.
I've lost respect for Neut.

Because he was attempting to keep people from taking advantage of a design flaw?


no because the admin don't see fit to backup what thier mods say. on either case. they have broken faith with their players and that is a very poor thing to do.

Today was a sad, sad day for democracy.
I've lost respect for Neut.

Because he was attempting to keep people from taking advantage of a design flaw?


no because the admin don't see fit to backup what thier mods say. on either case. they have broken faith with their players and that is a very poor thing to do.

This forum page does not seem to be loading right... looks funny. That said, then lose respect for [violet] if you want to. That I may disagree with,m but could understand. Why would this cause you to lose faith for Neut?

Today was a sad, sad day for democracy.
I've lost respect for Neut.

Because he was attempting to keep people from taking advantage of a design flaw?


no because the admin don't see fit to backup what thier mods say. on either case. they have broken faith with their players and that is a very poor thing to do.

This forum page does not seem to be loading right... looks funny. That said, then lose respect for [violet] if you want to. That I may disagree with,m but could understand. Why would this cause you to lose faith for Neut?

i haven't lost it for neut. i fully believe he was acting in good faith both times. i just think it's poor when uppermanagement changes thier minds one way or the other. i spent a long time managing (4 years) and that is one of the worst things you can do. people react as you see here, the middle manager loses lots of face for no good reason.

I am beginning to think neut is uncorruptable. he likes rule following far too much for that.

that was supposed to be a straight copliment not a backhanded one. guess i need more sleep.

strange page here :roll:

what's that?
hey everyone seen kane's post?

I will not respect any decidions made by the mods any more. They can not be trusted because someone above them can overturn their decisions with complete impunity. So, only decisions made from the top are worth listening to.

I do not mean to flame, but in this case - the truth burns. The low Mods decisions are now WORTHLESS because upper Mods don't respect them.

So... this being the truth -as proven by the Pacific - I will do what I want when I want, where I want and if they decide to punish me, then fine... until then - anything short of them actually stopping me will be COMPLETELY IGNORED.

You have lost control of some players because you have not adhered to the rules of civility. Your word has been broken - and you can not and will not fix what you have broken.

You have lost my respect and any chance I will EVER pay to play this game.

Do the math... Even if they want to charge $9.99 a month/per person... and you lose 100 players... THIS STUPIDITY COST THE SITE 12,000 per 100 people who decide not to pay... EACH YEAR.

Good job. I hope Max likes the MODS more then money.

BRAVO!

I will not respect any decidions made by the mods any more. They can not be trusted because someone above them can overturn their decisions with complete impunity. So, only decisions made from the top are worth listening to.
With respect, you are over-reacting. The Mods make decisions, the Admin ie [violet] reserves the right to overturn them. It happens rarely, but sometimes it does. As in life, you have to understand and respect the fact that the higher authority itself has a higher authority. What you are doing is rather like a school kid declaring that (s)he will henceforth only listen to the head of the school, ignoring the teachers, because their decisions are "worthless" as they can be reversed. Petty, unwise, and if rules are broken, likely to result in expulsion.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

You have lost [...] any chance I will EVER pay to play this game.


Considering the fact that this game is free, and will continue to be so...

...who cares?

I will not respect any decidions made by the mods any more. They can not be trusted because someone above them can overturn their decisions with complete impunity. So, only decisions made from the top are worth listening to.

I do not mean to flame, but in this case - the truth burns. The low Mods decisions are now WORTHLESS because upper Mods don't respect them.

So... this being the truth -as proven by the Pacific - I will do what I want when I want, where I want and if they decide to punish me, then fine... until then - anything short of them actually stopping me will be COMPLETELY IGNORED.

You have lost control of some players because you have not adhered to the rules of civility. Your word has been broken - and you can not and will not fix what you have broken.

You have lost my respect and any chance I will EVER pay to play this game.

Do the math... Even if they want to charge $9.99 a month/per person... and you lose 100 players... THIS STUPIDITY COST THE SITE 12,000 per 100 people who decide not to pay... EACH YEAR.

Good job. I hope Max likes the MODS more then money.

BRAVO!
9.99 per month??
If I'm going to have to pay that a month, I want to be able to assassinate delegates and hit a MOD in the face with a cream pies. :lol:

Tg, i know you weren't on last night. but this decision came down at the worst possible time. the original decsion was that we were okay. so we went ahead. the thread where salusa said this was deleted ( :? :x ) . late that night (right after we had it sealed up) we were told that this was not the case and that anyone who ha dhelped (who felt they were acting in good faith) were going to be beanned and tossed from the un. seems a bit harsh, no? anyways, once we were pretty much demoralized and on our way home, violet came in and changed the decision back.

i'm sorry but you all will have to take the frustration of people who worked on that all day. no i don't think we shoudl be flaming. but i think my words won't count for very much.

oh and my post as pct was ignored as i predicted. *shrug* so i'm pissed about that too.

good day for everyone.

Tg, i know you weren't on last night. but this decision came down at the worst possible time. the original decsion was that we were okay. so we went ahead. the thread where salusa said this was deleted ( :? :x ) . late that night (right after we had it sealed up) we were told that this was not the case and that anyone who ha dhelped (who felt they were acting in good faith) were going to be beanned and tossed from the un. seems a bit harsh, no? anyways, once we were pretty much demoralized and on our way home, violet came in and changed the decision back.

i'm sorry but you all will have to take the frustration of people who worked on that all day. no i don't think we shoudl be flaming. but i think my words won't count for very much.

oh and my post as pct was ignored as i predicted. *shrug* so i'm pissed about that too.

good day for everyone.


Yes...if they had made up their minds we wouldn't be ready to go on the warpath with torches and pitchforks... Be we were sold up the creek late at night, our dreams were executed in our sleep, our plans were all for naught. Told to go home and disperse, we placed our trust in the Mods...and now....and now, we are once again at the mercy of those who have destroyed us. But we will wait...though it take another 5 weeks, we will return, and don't expect to be able to control the crowds with only your word then....

this is the umpteenth time that neut has stepped in to delay and put off and essentially squash a liberation of the pacific. Had neut been able to implement the rest of the plan and offer a fair run off at a later date I have no dobt that the anemic (by pacific's standards) endorsement levels of FS would have meant his demise. There was no reason to stop the actions while Mods decided what to do. The Mods needed to decide what to do and then do it. It was an act of support for an unpopular Delegate.
As far as the poor argument that FS has some support, it is the weakest argument out there. 140 something endorsements in a Pacific is a sign of discontent not support. Griefer is a better name for his governing style. Neut has lost all his illusions od impartiality or fairness. The weak arguments that he was overturned does nothing to detract from the fact that he attempted to exert his will upon the region prior to any descision being made and in the end the wrong descision was made. As far as I can see The descision that was made to try and halt the liberation so that discussion could take place was as disingenuous as the original descision in the pacific. Violet had it right. But too late to make up for the actions of one biased mod. I have no idea what kind of whiney lies FS has fed you to make you act this way (maybe none). It is difficult to fathom how neut came to such consistently obstructive and biased descisions other than the obvious. You will excuse the underlying anger in this post as it is the inconsistancy and injustice of this situation and the actions of the authorities of the game that have caused this.
You will either fix this moderator driven injustice or you will lose a good amount of nations who will drop out due to the injustice that they feel has been inflicted upon them.
This is an exciting dynamic game. For the most part moderators have been fair. Some occasions unfair rulings have been acceptable (you can't win them all and a balance of power does keep the game more interesting) however the consistent moderator interferance in the Pacific combined with the unfair and biased descisions lead many to speculate on alterior motives of moderators vis a vis The Pacific.
The moral high ground has been lost to the moderators on this issue. It has been lost and smashed and obliterated.

Sorry... dup'd it.
doh

Billasia
aka
-Drakma-

I will not respect any decidions made by the mods any more. They can not be trusted because someone above them can overturn their decisions with complete impunity. So, only decisions made from the top are worth listening to.
With respect, you are over-reacting. The Mods make decisions, the Admin ie [violet] reserves the right to overturn them. It happens rarely, but sometimes it does. As in life, you have to understand and respect the fact that the higher authority itself has a higher authority. What you are doing is rather like a school kid declaring that (s)he will henceforth only listen to the head of the school, ignoring the teachers, because their decisions are "worthless" as they can be reversed. Petty, unwise, and if rules are broken, likely to result in expulsion.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator


TG... I know it must hurt to be held to the mistakes of others, but referring to the TRUTH I state being likened to a school child is not worthy of you; I also suspect if I leveled the same verbiage at you, you would ask me not to flame.

The Fact is, a MOD made a decision and we respected it. Then Another MOD countermanded that order and we got screwed. Why should we trust the decisions made by any but [Violet] if we now know for certain that Neut can and will be countermanded if [Violet] disagrees?

Can you answer that with anything better then, "Because we say so..." or "I'll boot you if you don't..."

I understand that in the Real World people decisions get over ruled. I know it better than anyone. I also know that the guy who gets over ruled loses street cred, because you never know if the decision he just made is going to fold. That’s the real world. Neut and Steph took the hit because [violet] didn’t respect them enough to keep their word inviolate.

We trusted the MODS and then your seniors made you guys look like liars. I feel sorry that Neut and Steph's rep and image where hit because of the actions of others... but none the less - their reputation was hit.

I respect Neut for sticking to the rules, even in the face of obvious venom from the players. However, if Neut comes into a forum and makes a declarations, why wouldn't everyone just wait to see what [violet] does? We know [violet] can not only take away the promises of other Mods but also erase the evidence (also, if you didn't know those statements would be crippling to your argument, you would not have erased them).

I think the only way to get justice on this is to E-mail Max and tell him that the handling of this incident has soured the players, and is killing the possibility that people might pay to play NationStates2. Money talks and BS walks.

There you go TG, the adult and responsible thing to do. Call YOUR bosses and make a valid complaint that his people made a situation untenable and that may have an effect against his wallet.

-Billasia

here here and well said.

A few clarifications on the sequence of events. First though, no blame should be attached to [violet] for anything done before their arrival (which I will clearly mark). Please note, I wasn't here for all of this, and will note these times as well.


We notice that numerous delegacies have been lost (somewheres around 1300)
The issue of The Pacific is brought up in the forums and Neut and I discuss at some length and decide that non-intervention is the best policy.
A full invasion begins and the moderators start doing a massive multi sweep on The Pacific
Further discussion ensues regarding the decision and numerous moderators (including myself) leave to do other things.
Neut overturns our earlier ruling and orders invaders to stand down.
I am not sure the chain of events here.
[violet] arrives, determines the situation and makes the ruling of non-intervention.
[violet] realizes that this is contradictory with Neut's current ruling, discusses the situation, and decides that non-intervention will hold.


A few quick notes. We are not covering anything up. The earlier ruling was not moved to destroy the history, but was moved for other purposes. [violet] remained consistent in their decisions.

And finally, the moderators will strive to be consistant with the policy of non-intervention with game glitches. There will be times when we will interfere, but they shall be the exception, rather than the rule.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

Editted for more accurate timeline.

I think that since I did not see any of it, all of my information is second-hand, and I am just a Forum Moderator anyway, I will be staying out of it. This is for the Game Mods and Admin to sort out.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Just a slight correction, I did not install myself as Founder. I ordered the invaders to stand-down.


Apparently I royally screwed the pooch on this one, and I apologize.


Guess I really am the worst mod, huh? *wry grin* ;)

A few clarifications on the sequence of events. First though, no blame should be attached to [violet] for anything done before their arrival (which I will clearly mark). Please note, I wasn't here for all of this, and will note these times as well.


We notice that numerous delegacies have been lost (somewheres around 1300)
The issue of The Pacific is brought up in the forums and Neut and I discuss at some length and decide that non-intervention is the best policy.
A full invasion begins and the moderators start doing a massive multi sweep on The Pacific
Further discussion ensues regarding the decision and numerous moderators (including myself) leave to do other things.
Neut overturns our earlier ruling and installs himself as founder.
I am not sure the chain of events here.
[violet] arrives, determines the situation and makes the ruling of non-intervention.
[violet] realizes that this is contradictory with Neut's current ruling, discusses the situation, and decides that non-intervention will hold.


A few quick notes. We are not covering anything up. The earlier ruling was not moved to destroy the history, but was moved for other purposes. [violet] remained consistent in their decisions.

And finally, the moderators will strive to be consistant with the policy of non-intervention with game glitches. There will be times when we will interfere, but they shall be the exception, rather than the rule.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

I'm just wondering, why was it that step 5 was taken? (overturning the earlier ruling) {edit, founder bit was explained above}.

Just a slight correction, I did not install myself as Founder. I ordered the invaders to stand-down.


Apparently I royally screwed the pooch on this one, and I apologize.


Guess I really am the worst mod, huh? *wry grin* ;)

So can we expect a recompense in the form of a second 'glitch' as [violet] promised?

[violet] never made that promise. I did. Unfortunatly, I cant hold up on that promise, and I apologize to everyone that I made the promise to.

So it appears that the failure of our campaign so reclaim the Pacific really was entirely Neut's responsibility.

Again.

Oh but he apologized though. And that makes it all better.

Just a slight correction, I did not install myself as Founder. I ordered the invaders to stand-down.


Apparently I royally screwed the pooch on this one, and I apologize.


Guess I really am the worst mod, huh? *wry grin* ;)

relax.. (i think it's my new mantra) like i have been telling my forces all day we'll get that bastard yet. why were we told to stand down? i was on my way home (you may notice 2 different ip's for me; one is my fiancee's house) when that came through and had to fumble through what to do with all our people.

[violet] never made that promise. I did. Unfortunatly, I cant hold up on that promise, and I apologize to everyone that I made the promise to.
oh dear. i know for one that's not the way i read it, last night.

may i offer you once again, one of bistmath's finest asbestos suits? half price just for you. :wink:

Well I trust [violet] will do something rectify this situation.
If a mod slips up, I don't see why it is fair that the admin team should just pretend it didn't happen.

I intervened on the premise that invasions exploiting such a glitch could potentially cause much harm in the future. I apparently was the only Mod who believed this potential existed or that it was potentially harmful enough to require action.

I was not attempting to kill the invasion, merely postpone it until after the Mods could further discuss the implications. This was also apparently not the proper action to have taken. [Violet] later stated that the glitch would not be reproduced as I had at first anticipated was possible.


In short, I screwed the pooch ;)

Well I trust [violet] will do something rectify this situation.
If a mod slips up, I don't see why it is fair that the admin team should just pretend it didn't happen.

Yup...so... Once again. We trust in Mod... Now don't let us down ya hear. :wink:

out of curiosity, if you can tell me, how many other delegates recieved the same treatment FS did?

:edit: my typing sucks the biscuit...

What makes everyone so sure that Corinthe would have won anyway? Just because she was in the lead at the time, doesn't mean Francos couldn't rally support also. You were given a chance due to a game error and you failed. It's not the fault of the Mods or the Admin.

wehad the lead at the time neut 'screwed th pooch' we had a comfortable lead and other armies were showing up to help. (heck i had to clear someone out early this morning from my region.)

But ultimately by postponing it, you killed it. You told Corinthe and friends to leave or risk being stripped of UN membership. As a result, Corinthe lost about 20 crucial endorsements, and then when [violet] overturned the decision we were left with an hour to get these crucial endorsements back.
I don't ask that this glitch be recreated, all I request is that Francos Spain's power to eject be stripped for 24 hours, giving us a fair chance to send him on his merry way to the Rejected Realms.

out of curiosity, if you can tell me, how many other delegates recieved the same treatment FS did?

:edit: my typing sucks the biscuit...

Had any other delegate's come forward with similar situations (invasions going unchecked in their region due to no Founder/Delegate), yes, we'd have acted the same (or at least, I thought we would've).

What makes everyone so sure that Corinthe would have won anyway? Just because she was in the lead at the time, doesn't mean Francos couldn't rally support also. You were given a chance due to a game error and you failed. It's not the fault of the Mods or the Admin.

Of course it is. Corinthe was 10 endorsements in the lead at the time.

Ofcourse there will no compensation for the situation.

The idea was to delay until things went back to normal.. just like LAST TIME. And look, it worked again. And why? We listened again. I'm noticing a pattern here. Listen to Neut=lose the Pacific. And the worst part, he got it wrong TWICE IN THE SAME REGION FOR THE SAME GLITCH!

And as an FYI:
Violet has already ruled that NOTHING will be done. The Pacific is Francos.

I want to know why Neut decided to go against the decission of the Mods and intevene? If a group of Mods say, "let's not intervene," why did you take it upon your to decide to threaten expulsion from the UN for all Corinthe supporters? I just don't get it.

It's easy to say, oops. (wry grin) when you've screwed people, but what are you going to do to fix it? I'll assume NOTHING. Do you realize how many people just don't want to play anymore? How many people are now unwilling to pay to play if NS2 has a $$$?

Unbelievable!

-Drakma-

out of curiosity, if you can tell me, how many other delegates recieved the same treatment FS did?

:edit: my typing sucks the biscuit...

Had any other delegate's come forward with similar situations (invasions going unchecked in their region due to no Founder/Delegate), yes, we'd have acted the same (or at least, I thought we would've).

okay so what you've told me is that to the best of your knowledge, no one else came foreward. interesting. thanks, man.

There was no chance in the world he could have rallied enough support to defeat her if the moderators hadn't destroyed her campaign.

He was frantically trolling for endorsements right up until the last minute and only had about 145. Corinthe would have had well over 200 if the moderators hadn't intervened to protect their little pet dictator and there's no way he could have matched that.

What makes everyone so sure that Corinthe would have won anyway? Just because she was in the lead at the time, doesn't mean Francos couldn't rally support also. You were given a chance due to a game error and you failed. It's not the fault of the Mods or the Admin.

Of course it is. Corinthe was 10 endorsements in the lead at the time.

As was stated earlier, Francos had several people move in just before the update and endorse him. Who knows how many more he had available. I'm not saying for sure he had enough, but we don't know if Corinthe had enough either.

It definantly would have been interesting. but i was getting large here come the cavalry notes up until (and after) the end.

It would not have been interesting at all. It would have been a landslide. FS's endorsement count had not changed in an hour and Corinthe's kept growing. The reasonable doubt that is trying to be created differs from reality. Period. The mods screwed up. And Wry smile is not cutting it for me...

BillAsia has it right. The favoritism of FS by Neut is blatant. Justice got screwed and we went along for the ride. There will be no reprieve.

Leason learned...Don't listen to neut on the pacific.

Now go and regroup.

And it was not really her campaign. She was the chosen spearhead of the will of a varied consortium. And we will return...Victorious.

I don't know why we're all complaining. The last time the Pacific was within our grasp, Neut delayed us until Francos Won - why should this time be ANY different. I mean, all he did was delay us, right?

granted he used threats of expulsion and grossly misused his authority, but he apologized. So all is forgive.

Neut - Unless you set a RULE IN STONE, you opinions, requests, and recommendations aren't worth squat and SHOULD be totally ignored by the masses. You have lost credibility. Sorry man, but either you screwed yourself out of your reputation or [violet] did. Either way, I think you name has a new and REAL meaning...

Neutered (by [Violet] over the Pacific). :lol:

-Drakma-

It just seems to me that, if you took a policy of non-interference, then interfered, shouldn't you make the situation as if you hadn't interfered? I understand now that theres really nothing that'll solve this problem for everything. It just seems like Franco is keeping power through nothing more than sheer luck

Also, [violet] said something about other ways to depose Franco, I was wondering, does she have any suggestions?

violet, if you do have those suggestions, don't post them here.

Neut did not favour anyone in this.

The only thing Neut is guilty of here is overmoderation. He made a call which he thought was in good judgement to halt the invasion to check with the admin whether it was legal.

However, knowingly or not, he killed off the invasion and left the Pacific a dictatorship again.

I have faith in the moderation team that they will resolve this matter fairly.

When I made the call, it was with full intent to recreate the situation should it be deemed legal. However, that was unfortunately not how it turned out, and for this I apologize.

eh?
oh no....

i would like to say this for the fourth time today on various forums. neut seems to have acted in good faith. i do not believe ihe was corrupt. from the evidence he seems misguided and overrulled. niether of these things are really his fault. don't go calling for his resignation or we'll just have to make another thread.

Violet is not going to tell us how to depose Francos.
It's not going to happen.
That would be unfair for the Admin to show how to harm one player.

NOTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE.

It's a big crap sandwich and we can either take a big bite and keep playing or go elsewhere for lunch. Nothing is going to be fixed. And the next time this opportunity comes our way, we'll get screwed again...

It's just life. The deck is against us, and the sheriff is on the dealers payroll. Neut will no fix the problem or get visibly harmed by his error.
Violet will not restore the old setting.
Francos will keep the Pacific until this glitch hits again and the UN nations ignore the Mods. (FYI-If we had not listened to them EITHER time the Pacific was up for grabs, Francos would be in the RR now).

It’s the new paradigm. Get used to it.

-Drakma-

Neut, you don't know me one bit, but if you didn't intervere, and I would be delegate, you had plenty of time to debate this out. I would bow down to any well thought decision the mods had made. I even would have ejected all my friends if necesary, and simply left the place to Francos again. I stress, if you gave it time to debate with the moderators. This is nothing but speculation now.

From where I'm standing, you just lost your cool, and made the wrong decision.

He did what he did hoping that if he was wrong, [violet] would give us another chance.
He was wrong, and made an error in judgement. He has apologised about this and from what I can gather from the vague comments by various mods, there is a heated discussion as to what will be done to correct the mistake.



For example... getting rid of Francos Spain's power to eject *hint hint*

Neut is unbiased? maybe. But with each repeat of bad and biased descisions in the pacific this trust dims. I had doubts before. They have grown considerably with the repeat of the mistakes (?) made the first time.

Mod intervention and threats prevented the liberation of the pacific, AGAIN!

love the hint.

The hint was classy! Nice job, Myrth.

-Drakma-

I appreciate your apology, Neut... most people, however, don't.

I am going back to work on this little "project"... I hope others will do the same. It looks like this betrayal (I'm sorry to use that word, but whatever you may say, whoever is in the wrong/right, whoever had supreme jurisdiction, our trust was betrayed) has cost us some major players, including Corinthe. I myself seriously considered asking to have all my nations deleted. My sensible side overrulled such feelings, and I'm going to put myself back in the fray shortly....

However, I think it's best for all parties involved, Neut, if you don't involve yourself with The Pacific. If somebody needs to come "drop the hammer", have another MOD do it. For all intents and purposes, your view of "stop the invasion" was a definite minority in the circle of moderators, and it wasn't until the other MODs left that you reversed the decision and took things into your own hands. You're not in good odor over this... for the sake of preserving the respectability of the moderators and administrators of NationStates, please stay out.

I understand what I've written is pretty harsh and, more likely than not, will be met with "I appreciate the thought, but no." Whether you take my advice or not is your decision. Mine is to give it.

Still what bothers me the most is "The MODs" told us to get an Army together and takeback the Pacific because they aren't getting invovled. Everytime we do something happens, ie someone gets invovled.
ANd this crap "NO Action is the best Action" sorry buds you have gotten invovled twice and your Moderation has ended helping one side more than the other.

I for one WILL NOT listen to anymore Stand down orders.

Sorry double post

I believe that I speak for all of the NS officials when I say that I believe that all of Neut's actions were done in good faith.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

I think I speak for a vast majority of NS Nations when I say we have lost faith.

Not that it matters, but I'm no longer going to play this game. Why? Well as of today I was banned for whatever reason... I enjoyed watching the game being played and being part of it

Now, regardless of the game play itself, if you have one individual who is ruining it for everyone else then you have an issue that needs to be addressed.

In "real life" a UN member does not have the right or power to eject another nation from anything. Such matters should be dealt with within the UN forum and not a internal sphere. or region. I'm honestly pissed that this has been allowed to go on for so long. Without any consideration to the other players. As a "member" of the UN we should be somewhat exempt from this crap. What is the UN for anyway if what we say or do can be controlled by another?

Anyway this is nothing you haven't heard before....but I will not be sharing this game or the info on the book to anyone else as those involved seem to be totally out to lunch...

Yours regretfully

JKR4

I'm not making the claim that Neut accepted a briefcase of unmarked, non-sequential bills in exchange for intervention... nor am I saying that he has a personal grudge against Corinthe or any of the 150+ people who supported her last night.

But the fact of the matter is that the question of credibility is at hand. Not Neut's, not directly, but (as you can plainly see) many people are now standing up and saying that they will openly and freely oppose a moderator's decision.

I'm only suggesting that Neut lay low in the case of The Pacific, because any more "unjust" (that terminology used by the injured parties) decisions can cause a sharp increase in hostile airs and quite possibly mass abandonment of NationStates. I'm not claiming that it will happen just like that, but the potential is certainly there.

Please note that I'm not saying that all mods should stay out... only Neut, and only for these reasons above. There really isn't a reason in the world why another mod couldn't handle The Pacific....

Wow...I missed a lot I can see, extremely confusing..... I think I understand the overall situation now but wow....

The main issue that I have with Neut is the fact that he spoke with authority as if he were united with the other mods last night. My opinion is that, once a decision is made by the mods, all of them stay on the same page. What happened last night was totally unacceptable. I'm fairly certain that many players decided this morning to quit playing because they saw a mod, who we are supposed to trust to mediate our game, fail in his duties. We need, and ask, that the mods remain objective in all matters. When they fail, it casts doubt on the fairness of the game and whether we should even continue playing.

I hope that this will be resolved soon. I would like to continue playing as long as I know the mods are willing to remain fair and impartial and, above all else, objective. The remedy for Neut is not to just remain out of the Pacific, but perhaps to remove him as a mod...just my humble opinion.

I would find it hard to imagine the MODS coming out and saying, "Neut Screwed you all and we hate him for it." So your comments about all the MODS believing Neut acted honorably are suspect.

Furthermore, in the posts it has been seen that Neut and another mod decided NOT to interfere, and then Neut decided to not only go against the other MODS, but interfered in error.

So he:

1) Went against the small group consent that non-intervention was the correct path.
2) Went into the Pacific and threatened to boot anyone didn't obey his request (Which I think is a gross abuse of power… especially when you consider the admin didn’t authorize it and later over ruled him for being wrong)
3) Made promises he had NO way of providing or enforcing.
4) WAS TOTALLY WRONG.

If he was right in the end, atleast he could claim the high ground... but he was wrong all the way thought.


I saw a thread calling for Neuts head appear and get clamped down so fast I thought lightning had struck. The reason for the lock down (as always) is that the MODS are talking about it - so therefor we can not. Why? Because some how the players talking about it does something to the MODS thought patterns? Can anyone explain this phenomenon? Players write their opinions and the MODS can't ignore them because they are talking about the same issue?

If nothing, maybe the Mods SHOULD listen to us... maybe we would think of a point of view, pro or con, that they (in their infinite wisdom and power) did not.

I don't think his head belongs on a spike as a sign of what happens when you bone 170 active players, but we should be allowed to talk about it.

-Drakma-

:Edit: Had 4 bullet points and 3 numbers... doh

I would strongly suggest that Neut *not* have anything more to do with the goings on in the Pacific. Rightly or wrongly, there is a strong perception out there that he is biased in favour of Francos Spain.

I would strongly suggest that Neut *not* have anything more to do with the goings on in the Pacific. Rightly or wrongly, there is a strong perception out there that he is biased in favour of Francos Spain.

The perception is only shared by a small group of vocal invaders who failed to achieve their goal.

I would strongly suggest that Neut *not* have anything more to do with the goings on in the Pacific. Rightly or wrongly, there is a strong perception out there that he is biased in favour of Francos Spain.

Neut has stated repeatedly that he is not biased in favour of anyone. Read Corinthe's post regarding the matter.

A few clarifications on the sequence of events. First though, no blame should be attached to [violet] for anything done before their arrival (which I will clearly mark). Please note, I wasn't here for all of this, and will note these times as well.


We notice that numerous delegacies have been lost (somewheres around 1300)
The issue of The Pacific is brought up in the forums and Neut and I discuss at some length and decide that non-intervention is the best policy.
A full invasion begins and the moderators start doing a massive multi sweep on The Pacific
Further discussion ensues regarding the decision and numerous moderators (including myself) leave to do other things.
Neut overturns our earlier ruling and orders invaders to stand down.

<snip>

Neut unilaterally reversed the previous decision? If this is not the case the mods must clarify this for Neutered Sputnik's sake. I distinctly recall another mod backing his decision in the regional message board, can't remember who though.

Stephistan I do believe. Who happens to be a lowly forum mod...

I would strongly suggest that Neut *not* have anything more to do with the goings on in the Pacific. Rightly or wrongly, there is a strong perception out there that he is biased in favour of Francos Spain.

The perception is only shared by a small group of vocal invaders who failed to achieve their goal.

I believe this perception is more widespread than the some would like to acknowledge. There IS a general sense of complete injustice regarding neut's actions in the Pacific, regardless of what a few nations appear to believe. Just look around at some of the boards. On and off-site. Dissatisfaction is rampant. Perhaps if those that are pleased with the turn of events took a wider sampling they would find more than their own wishful thinking.

I don't want Neut to go away even though he has done this sort of thing before. (ie Arrakis.) Anyway for the most part I think..even though he over did it is a good MOD. Though I hardly ever agree with anything he post.

However once you guys make a ruling and post it in a forum..try to stick by it...k?

As for me this is probably it for me. The double standards and the "Opps" mistakes as well as the constant grefing has taken all the fun out of the game. I am currently in Retirement as well as several others. To think about if this headache is really worth it.

A few clarifications on the sequence of events. First though, no blame should be attached to [violet] for anything done before their arrival (which I will clearly mark). Please note, I wasn't here for all of this, and will note these times as well.


We notice that numerous delegacies have been lost (somewheres around 1300)
The issue of The Pacific is brought up in the forums and Neut and I discuss at some length and decide that non-intervention is the best policy.
A full invasion begins and the moderators start doing a massive multi sweep on The Pacific
Further discussion ensues regarding the decision and numerous moderators (including myself) leave to do other things.
Neut overturns our earlier ruling and orders invaders to stand down.

<snip>

Neut unilaterally reversed the previous decision? If this is not the case the mods must clarify this for Neutered Sputnik's sake. I distinctly recall another mod backing his decision in the regional message board, can't remember who though.

This is what is stated on this forum.
Two of the mods Neut and someone got together and spoke, and decided not to act. Then later Neut acted. Maybe another mod joined him, I don't know. I passed out at 1:00 EST.

I have asked the same question: Why did Neut chnage his mind and step in? But all I've seen is vague Mod support posts for Neut. Nothin from Neut except his apology and admission that he 'screwed the pooch on this one.'

-Drakma-

I have posted many times why I made the decision I made. If you would rather bash the Mods and Admin than read a page or two back, then it is no fault of the Mods/Admin that you dont know my reasoning.

I'd suggest you tone down your flamebaiting posts, -Drakma-. They will curry respect with neither the players, nor the Admin/Mod staff.

I don't want Neut to go away even though he has done this sort of thing before. (ie Arrakis.) Anyway for the most part I think..even though he over did it is a good MOD. Though I hardly ever agree with anything he post.

However once you guys make a ruling and post it in a forum..try to stick by it...k?

As for me this is probably it for me. The double standards and the "Opps" mistakes as well as the constant grefing has taken all the fun out of the game. I am currently in Retirement as well as several others. To think about if this headache is really worth it.

This is a slightly different situation. Arrakis had no glitch exploited, and was a legal invasion that another Mod turned over.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

I think I speak for a vast majority of NS Nations when I say we have lost faith.

Neut,

I have been posting for the last 5 pages. I have been reading the forum. Your answer was not an explanation of your thoughts, it's just a statement of what you did. The answer of, "It was a snap decision," is not an explanation. Blaming it on the time zones does sit well either. Sorry, but it doesn’t.

An explanation is more like:

"I felt that there was a precedent in region XYZ that taking advantage of a glitch was wrong. In a previous region this happened and violet said ABC, so I mistakenly interpreted that to mean I should stop this. So I went against the other Mods and threatened to boot people from the pacific, to keep the region where it was."

I find it difficult to reconcile your humble, "oops I guess I really screwed the pooch," line with veiled threats at people who are LEGITIMATELY angry at your mistake. You made a mistake. I get mad and complain, then you tell me to not complain so angrily? Does that make sense anywhere else in the free world except here?

I am not trying to flame bait, but the Mods screwed us… and this is the place to talk about. Also, you guys tend to call flamebaiting really quick when it’s your butt on the flame.

I am angry that FS, a dictator, is allowed to stay in power and the Mods do NOTHING to stop him… but when our one good chance to stop him comes along, you’re all over it. You helped us snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Even you have to understand why that pisses people off.

I do not believe you, Neut, are biased towards Francos, but I do think you jumped in too hard and fast and though a authority. As such, your reputation and command of the players respect is tarnished.

I did not want your head on a plate, but now that you’ve returned much less contrite and much more belligerent, I have changed my mind. In this instance, a good offense is not the best defense.

-Drakma-

Check pages 22 and 23 ;)

Heck! I got kicked out and I wasn't even online. The only thing I did was to NOT return an endorsement. :roll:

What I think is a shame is that, if the invasion had been allowed to continue, it could later have been ruled whether or not it was legal. Options would have been left open. And if Corinthe had been overturned, it would have been with full support of admin etc.

Never mind.

Check pages 22 and 23 ;)

Wow. I looked and wasn't on the ban list for the Pacific. So, I tried to go back. It took an entire minute for him to ban me. :roll:

As a result of this situation, I expect I'll be ignoring any requests made by moderators unless there has been a clear prior ruling which has not been overturned by the admin. That's the way to win, apparently.

Look, regardless of which person/set of people is to blame, a large group of players feel they've been screwed by the moderators/admin. An apology probably won't be sufficient, either - that will not undo the damage, and it won't stop this from happening again. At the least, the moderators should not be able to make decisions on these situations - that should be left to the admin. Few people will respect the moderators' decisions now in any case.

....gets more and more ridiculous all the time. Used to be interesting and fun. Now it's nothing more interesting than that online game where you try to get the crumpled paper into the trash bin while fighting devestating crosswinds.

I intervened on the premise that invasions exploiting such a glitch could potentially cause much harm in the future. I apparently was the only Mod who believed this potential existed or that it was potentially harmful enough to require action.

I was not attempting to kill the invasion, merely postpone it until after the Mods could further discuss the implications. This was also apparently not the proper action to have taken. [Violet] later stated that the glitch would not be reproduced as I had at first anticipated was possible.


In short, I screwed the pooch ;)

Just give the guy a break, he's done his job well and he's only human(I think), I supported Corinthe, but isn't it just a game?

Question: is there some sort of mod council being convened? I kind of got the impression that there is, but I'd like some confirmation. Also, are we to expect some sort of official statement released or something of that kind?

IC: Lord Evif sits at his desk watching the current debate in the UN with a bemused look. "More irrelevant debate," he mutters. He gets up from his desk and stalks out of the chamber.

However, Lord Evif has received an encrypted communication from the President himself. "Justice must be restored in the Pacific," it says. Lord Evif walks towards the Clerk's wing of the UN complex, being careful not to be observed.

The burn marks are apparent on the walls as Lord Evif ambles towards the immense filing cabinets that contain the UN credentials of each member. After a quick glance around him, he opens the cabinet that contains the Rejected Realms files and the cabinet that contains the Pacific files and takes out two files.
The Dominion of Francos Spain
http://www.nationstates.net/images/un_delegate.gif
Region: The Pacific
Endorsements Verified: 146
ATTEST: Clerk of the United NationsThe Queendom of Corinthe
http://www.nationstates.net/images/un_member.gif
Region: The Rejected Realms
ATTEST: Clerk of the United Nations
Lord Evif pulls a lighter out of his pocket, along with two blank member forms, a pen, and a stamp. It will be easy enough to remove Francos Spain's delegacy, he thinks.

What will happen next?

This situation is hilarious. In the past when invaders have complained about an anti-invasion bias, everyone sided with The Mods Who Could Do No Wrong and said that the invaders were just a bunch of whiners.

Now that you have all become invaders, you are outraged that the moderators have interfered with what you believe to be a legit invasion.

Also Francos has more support than you give him credit for. Just because he did not loudly spam dozens of regions trolling for endorsements does not mean that he doesn't have friends willing and able to help him out. He plays intelligently and fairly (certainly more intelligently and fairly than many of his detractors) and even though some of you have declared him "the most hated player in the game", he continues to defeat legions of enemies through superior game play. Sounds like what we have here is a great player and lot of poor sports who are upset about losing to a great player, instead of giving him the respect he deserves.

Many of you continue to post his rules for residing within the Pacific, as if they in and of themselves are a condemnation of his style of play. I think his rules are genius. If you want to stay in the region, you follow them, if you don't, you can move to any of 10,000 other regions. If you want to overthrow him, he's given you a blueprint for how to deceive him. And yet you still cannot beat him.

You are all willing to pay lip service to the concept of this being an open-ended game, but when someone creates a different power structure in his region and it doesn't sit well with your pre-conceived notions of how the game should be played, you cry foul.

Very, very funny.

The thing that's made me laugh the hardest in this thread, however, is this statement:

People like Francos, there's a screw loose there...he can't continue to toy with others lives as he has. He just can't.

As if God Himself is on your side because someone plays a game differently than you do...great stuff!

A couple of things.


I shut down the thread asking for Neut's head on a stick. I did this because it was most definitely not constructive. If you notice, there is much debate regarding this issue and we're not censoring it.
A formal council of the mods? Well, let me say that it is the primary topic of conversation and discussion and we are working out numerous different issues including further actions, levels of reponsibility, protocols to prevent problems in the future, etc.
Please notice the part of the timeline where I say that I left! After that everything is hearsay and quite possibly flawed. I don't know if anyone knows the whole story yet. One of our biggest jobs is to figure out exactly what happened from beginning to end.
None of the NS authorities are accusing Neut of acting in bad faith, or with bias. It was a judgement call and that is one of the primary reasons why we allowed him to go forth with his actions. Nothing was black and white and so though we disagreed we him, we were willing to let him proceed.
As has been said numerous times in this thread (but few people seem to remember), THE ADMIN AGREES WITH ALL MOD RULING UNLESS AND UNTIL THEY SPECIFICALLY POST OTHERWISE. There was a beautiful analogy earlier to a student in a school refusing to obey his teacher because the principal could overrule them. Well, guess what, that kids dumb, and will get detention if he does this. How often have we been overruled? Practically never. Please remember that.
And finally, to dispell various rumors I've heard: No, there isn't a mod conspiracy to keep FS in power. No, Neut is not biased towards FS. No, we will not recreate the glitch. No, Neut did not act in poor faith and truly believed that all he said was true and doable.


Look guys, this is a tough job and we are working hard at it. I barely slept last night, and I think that goes for most of the other mods as well. We're tired, stressed, and now under constant attack. Please, let up on us a little? We are truly trying to straighten stuff out, but it can be difficult.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

Edit: In response to beachcomber:

First off Francos's "rules" are illegal. They mean absolutely nothing to me as they are outside of the game rules. They are merely his personal justification for his oppresive rule.

Secondly defenders go to the mods with legitamate concerns of multiing or flame/spamming. They do not whine that an invasion is going on and oh just do something.

All societies are made up of rules. To flip flop around and change the rules willy nilly as the mood fits you does nothing for anyone.

Requests for help in the Pacific are not as much spam as you think. I personally have a list of over 6 regions who request I inform them on anyway that they can help free the Pacific.

It is not the fact that there is a different power structure in the Pacific it is the nature of the misuse of that power that the majority of the NS World objects to.

140 endorsements in a Pacific regiuon is an embarassment and a clear indication of disatisfaction. Count the number of nations in the other pacifics that have at least that many. Francos far from having support holds onto power through intimidation and the support of defender nations who are just waiting to stab him in the back.

The anger you see spilling out here is the frustration of righteous nations who know that any amount of distortion and subterfuge does not change the fact thatFS is oppresive and ours is a just cause that was thwarted unjustly.

A formal council of the mods? Well, let me say that it is the primary topic of conversation and discussion and we are working out numerous different issues including further actions, levels of reponsibility, protocols to prevent problems in the future, etc.


Look guys, this is a tough job and we are working hard at it. I barely slept last night, and I think that goes for most of the other mods as well. We're tired, stressed, and now under constant attack. Please, let up on us a little? We are truly trying to straighten stuff out, but it can be difficult.



That's all I ask. Take your time and figure it out.

A formal council of the mods? Well, let me say that it is the primary topic of conversation and discussion and we are working out numerous different issues including further actions, levels of reponsibility, protocols to prevent problems in the future, etc.


Look guys, this is a tough job and we are working hard at it. I barely slept last night, and I think that goes for most of the other mods as well. We're tired, stressed, and now under constant attack. Please, let up on us a little? We are truly trying to straighten stuff out, but it can be difficult.



That's all I ask. Take your time and figure it out.

First off Francos's "rules" are illegal.
You are incorrect. They are not. There is no argument to be made here.

Secondly defenders go to the mods with legitamate concerns of multiing or flame/spamming.
This is true.

They do not whine that an invasion is going on and oh just do something.
While this may be true of self-appointed "defenders", this is not true of everyone, and legal invasions have been overturned several times in the past. I am going to assume that you just don't know your NS history, and are not making a deliberate misstatement. You may be speaking the truth about the actions of most so-called "defenders", but you are not accurately representing the response to invaders throughout the history of this game.

It is not the fact that there is a different power structure in the Pacific it is the nature of the misuse of that power that the majority of the NS World objects to.
You are forgetting that this is an open-ended game and what you see as a "misuse" of power is merely another way to play. Obviously you all disagree with Francos' style of play, but that doesn't make you right. It just means that a lot of people don't like the way he plays. A lot of people do, and not all of them are as noisy as his detractors.

140 endorsements in a Pacific regiuon is an embarassment and a clear indication of disatisfaction.
Francos plays by the rules and retains power. Being a tyrant is more difficult than being everyone's buddy, but it works well for him. IMO, it makes him a better player. He chooses the difficult path and kicks your butt every time. That's awesome.

The anger you see spilling out here is the frustration of righteous nations who know that any amount of distortion and subterfuge does not change the fact thatFS is oppresive and ours is a just cause that was thwarted unjustly.
You have to drop this notion of "justice". Objectively, what really happened here is that a lot of nations tried to exploit a bug to get what they want. Their motivations are unimportant to the rules of the game itself.

I suppose, then, that if invaders were to take your region by exploiting a bug, you would not complain? Be careful what you say now, as your words may come back to haunt you...

A lot of nations were involved in last nights farce and many showed themselves on the understanding no mods were taking action to stop the moral invasion.

I was willing to give up the 440 odd endorsements I have in the NORTH PACIFIC region to help out and luckly I found out about the mod uturn in time to return home with the said endorsements.


Thought for the day:

Is francos a pain the luckest nation in NS or is she(xyz?)really a mod or max?

I cannot believe how flexible these mods are they have bent over double to accomadate this parasite on the fast decaying carcass that is NS.

I pity the new nations dumped into the war zone that is the pacific.

Thats my 50cents worth any way.

Slightly off-topic: Does this constitute flaming?

Go back whence you came, treacherous vermin from the shadows!

Slightly off-topic: Does this constitute flaming?

Go back whence you came, treacherous vermin from the shadows!
Not at all, he RPs a Fascist dictator in NS World, and that Factbook Entry is in character.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Slightly off-topic: Does this constitute flaming?

Go back whence you came, treacherous vermin from the shadows!
Not at all, he RPs a Fascist dictator in NS World, and that Factbook Entry is in character.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Got it.

And so another evil Goobergunchian attempt to depose Francos Spain fails....

This situation is hilarious. In the past when invaders have complained about an anti-invasion bias, everyone sided with The Mods Who Could Do No Wrong and said that the invaders were just a bunch of whiners.

Now that you have all become invaders, you are outraged that the moderators have interfered with what you believe to be a legit invasion.

Also Francos has more support than you give him credit for. Just because he did not loudly spam dozens of regions trolling for endorsements does not mean that he doesn't have friends willing and able to help him out. He plays intelligently and fairly (certainly more intelligently and fairly than many of his detractors) and even though some of you have declared him "the most hated player in the game", he continues to defeat legions of enemies through superior game play. Sounds like what we have here is a great player and lot of poor sports who are upset about losing to a great player, instead of giving him the respect he deserves.

Many of you continue to post his rules for residing within the Pacific, as if they in and of themselves are a condemnation of his style of play. I think his rules are genius. If you want to stay in the region, you follow them, if you don't, you can move to any of 10,000 other regions. If you want to overthrow him, he's given you a blueprint for how to deceive him. And yet you still cannot beat him.

You are all willing to pay lip service to the concept of this being an open-ended game, but when someone creates a different power structure in his region and it doesn't sit well with your pre-conceived notions of how the game should be played, you cry foul.

Very, very funny.

The thing that's made me laugh the hardest in this thread, however, is this statement:

People like Francos, there's a screw loose there...he can't continue to toy with others lives as he has. He just can't.

As if God Himself is on your side because someone plays a game differently than you do...great stuff!

WOW...is that support for my actions last night?

Looks like it....*shrug*

WOW...is that support for my actions last night?

I always support your actions when they are consistent with the rules and spirit of the game.

Your point about the unintended consequences of allowing players to exploit bugs is extremely valid. This is a dangerous standard that short-sighted players are trying to use to their advantage now without thinking about the consequences.

WOW...is that support for my actions last night?

I always support your actions when they are consistent with the rules and spirit of the game.

Your point about the unintended consequences of allowing players to exploit bugs is extremely valid. This is a dangerous standard that short-sighted players are trying to use to their advantage now without thinking about the consequences.

Holy schmoly...you're on my side :shock:

And you make a valid point there in your second paragraph.

I supported you too Neut. What am I, chopped liver?

*runs away sobbing hysterically*

Ur not...it's just that Beachcomber's been very adamant about opposing me before. I appreciate all those players who have managed to see the big picture and realize that I fully intended to carry through on my promise.

Woot!

You do realize I wasn't crying? I'm too manly to cry. *flexes*

Woot!

You do realize I wasn't crying? I'm too manly to cry. *flexes*

:twisted:

Goobergunchia
EvilDUer

You quoted the wrong part Goober...


Like this:

*runs away sobbing hysterically*


;)

You quoted the wrong part Goober...


Like this:

*runs away sobbing hysterically*

I am not evil enough....http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/imnotworthy.gif

A couple of things.

[list=1]
As has been said numerous times in this thread (but few people seem to remember), THE ADMIN AGREES WITH ALL MOD RULING UNLESS AND UNTIL THEY SPECIFICALLY POST OTHERWISE. There was a beautiful analogy earlier to a student in a school refusing to obey his teacher because the principal could overrule them. Well, guess what, that kids dumb, and will get detention if he does this. How often have we been overruled? Practically never. Please remember that.

Look guys, this is a tough job and we are working hard at it. I barely slept last night, and I think that goes for most of the other mods as well. We're tired, stressed, and now under constant attack. Please, let up on us a little? We are truly trying to straighten stuff out, but it can be difficult.


SalusaSecondus, the analogy made about a child a principle was directed at me. Besides the issue of flame bating, the analogy is bad. I know why the Mods used it; it makes their point well. The problem is, in the analogy, the child ignores the principle. See, I never advocated that. [Violet] is the principle... I suggest we ignore everyone, including you, that is below [violet] because their decisions are not worth anything. [Violet] can and will, at times, over rule you. So why listen to you (besides you omnipresent threats of bans and boots)? DO you want to only be listened to because you have power over people? I would want people to listen to me because they respect my opinions, not because I have something I can hold over their head.

See, that’s what I think is childish. “Do what I say or else!” This sounds like the school bully, not the teacher and principle.

Neut screwed up; hell, he admitted it and apologized for it. The 150 nations in the Pacific that were booted got screwed out of victory… and nothing will be done about it… nothing. You can convene 1000 councils… but they will all be geared for the next time, not to fix this blunder, right?

And by the way, I though you guys convened the great council last time the Pacific Liberation was aborted by Neut? What came out of that council? “Uh, don’t do it again… but if you do.. we’ll defend you tooth and nail!” ?!?!? I can’t believe this happened again.

To answer everyones question: NOTHING WILL BE DONE ABOUT LAST NIGHT.

There will be no reset. That would be, funny enough, unfair to FS.
There will be no action against Neut. As you can read above, he’s a hero to the Mods, and they all support his actions…even thought they agreed to no action… but that beating a dead horse.
There will be no new delegate in the Pacific, although they will tell us to keep trying.
There will be many threats by the Mods to anyone who continues to disagree with them in an intelligent manner. They’ll call it Flamebaiting…

This is life in NS… It's not fair, and never claimed to be...

Get used to it, or wait the 28 days and watch it die.

And, SalusaSecondus.. please stop with the pull for sympathy. We know your job is hard, but we expect you to come through on the big events.. if you blow the little ones, but come through on the big ones, we can’t complain. It’s when you run all the little ones right, and then blow the big one we get angry.


-Drakma-


P.S. Neut, I went back and reread your reasoning… I still don’t like it. It’s predicated on the idea that to be fair, you’ll stop this action in it’s tracks – because a glitch allowed it- but set up another day so the other sides is treated evenly. OOPS… Part 2 was not possible for you to deliver. Sorry, I still think you made yourself look bad by promising what you could not deliver.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

Thank you, Savage Lands.

I appreciate the support!

-Drakma-

There you go TG, the adult and responsible thing to do. Call YOUR bosses and make a valid complaint that his people made a situation untenable and that may have an effect against his wallet.

-Billasia

It may be worth pointing out that every player here actually costs this game, in CPU time, Server Space and Bandwith. For every player that leaves this game, these costs are eliminated. Effectively, leaving is possibly the best thing you can do for the Admins. The more people leave, the less it will cost them to operate this game.

In the event that everyone leaves... Well, at least Max Barry can get on with the process of writing his next book, and not worry about having to keep up payments on NationStates's (what must be) enormous bills.

Oh, and Neut, I understand that this is probably an incredibly stressful time for you (as well as the other mods). Maybe you should pull an Otto for a week and "Be in Mexico until this whole thing blows over"? I have this sneaking suspicion that your presence here may not be assisting in this situation. It's probably not assisting in your mental well-being either...

And there are many that believe my actions were the most beneficial for the game on the whole. And we're not talking about just Francos and his supporters, but people that are actively attempting to remove Francos from power.

Why is it not surprising that the nation kissing neut's butt is a crasher?

Why is it that the completely bankrupt arguments laid forth here are given credibility?

Why is it that there is no, has been no, and will be no effort to correct the injustice perpatrated last night?

Why are the mods so arrogant that they feel they are above reproach?

These are actually rhetorical questions. But think about it. In the end, as before, the nations who played by the actual rules and did the right thing will be threatened and made to shut up. This thread will be closed and FS will be held up as the agreived. What a farce.

Thalbourne, I appreciate your concern. I will not be taking a vacation simply because of a lack of communication.. I will be absent for approximately a week starting this friday due to a previously scheduled inter-state move. I want to make it perfectly clear that my abcense next week has nothing to do with last night's events.

-Drakma-,

No, I'd prefer that people listen to the moderators because you respect us, and because our decisions are almost always in line with those of [violet]. However, not everyone is willing to go by such reasoning, and we do have powers to enforce our rulings. These powers were given to us by [violet] because they trust us. Yes, there will be times that we are overruled, but that doesn't invalidate our other rulings and actions.

Furthermore, I don't know where you get the idea that Neut is a "hero" to us. We aren't hanging him in effigy or preparing an iron maiden from him. But beyond that, we've told you nothing about how we feel beyond the fact that he actions were all in good faith and not unreasonable. Now, he may be a hero to us, he may be a villian, but at this point in time, I don't think that that particular piece of information is up for public discussion.

And finally, regarding the pull for sympathy: Yeah, I was asking for some. You know why? Because there are many players out there asking us for many different things, and we would love to be able to get to them all, but having people continually harrass us (which you are doing), only makes our job harder and slows us down. You have a point to make? Make it. But, if you want things to be fixed as quickly as possible, let us get back to work and do our job properly.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

And there are many that believe my actions were the most beneficial for the game on the whole. And we're not talking about just Francos and his supporters, but people that are actively attempting to remove Francos from power.

There may be a few who are not FS supporters who agreed with your actions but I have not seen one. And I get around alot. Keep it real.

I disagreed with the ruling last night. However, I do believe that Neut was acting in good faith and that the precedent could have been dangerous. My ideal solution would be that which I RPed above. However, it looks like [violet]'s not going to let that happen. Therefore I think it is high time that we stop hassling the mods.

What's done is done, and it's not going to change. The motion to reconsider has been laid on the table.

Thalbourne, I appreciate your concern. I will not be taking a vacation simply because of a lack of communication.. I will be absent for approximately a week starting this friday due to a previously scheduled inter-state move. I want to make it perfectly clear that my abcense next week has nothing to do with last night's events.

Noted. Hope you don't lose anything important in the move.

Thalbourne, I appreciate your concern. I will not be taking a vacation simply because of a lack of communication.. I will be absent for approximately a week starting this friday due to a previously scheduled inter-state move. I want to make it perfectly clear that my abcense next week has nothing to do with last night's events.

Noted. Hope you don't lose anything important in the move.

Me too...course, I dont feel that I'll be losing the most important stuff...Jaime's not about to leave me just because I'm moving away ;)

Why, in the name of God, is this still a problem? Is no one capable of moving on with their lives? It's a frikkin feeder region. It's not even all that important. Bickering over this pathetically stale peice of political nonissue is tantamount to sniping at each other for want of any meaningful interaction.

Why is this important? It's not like the Pacific is anybody's ally, or that people ejected from the region are in dire straits. Christ, people get ejected from regions every day. They usually move on to better things. Frankly, bickering over an infant-herder region is asinine to the point of absurdity.

This is not something to risk reputations and grudges over. Grow up.

...Beachcomber's been very adamant about opposing me before.
I oppose you when you're wrong, not because you're you.

A couple of things.

[list=1]
As has been said numerous times in this thread (but few people seem to remember), THE ADMIN AGREES WITH ALL MOD RULING UNLESS AND UNTIL THEY SPECIFICALLY POST OTHERWISE. There was a beautiful analogy earlier to a student in a school refusing to obey his teacher because the principal could overrule them. Well, guess what, that kids dumb, and will get detention if he does this. How often have we been overruled? Practically never. Please remember that.

Look guys, this is a tough job and we are working hard at it. I barely slept last night, and I think that goes for most of the other mods as well. We're tired, stressed, and now under constant attack. Please, let up on us a little? We are truly trying to straighten stuff out, but it can be difficult.


SalusaSecondus, the analogy made about a child a principle was directed at me. Besides the issue of flame bating, the analogy is bad. I know why the Mods used it; it makes their point well. The problem is, in the analogy, the child ignores the principle. See, I never advocated that. [Violet] is the principle... I suggest we ignore everyone, including you, that is below [violet] because their decisions are not worth anything. [Violet] can and will, at times, over rule you. So why listen to you (besides you omnipresent threats of bans and boots)? DO you want to only be listened to because you have power over people? I would want people to listen to me because they respect my opinions, not because I have something I can hold over their head.

See, that’s what I think is childish. “Do what I say or else!” This sounds like the school bully, not the teacher and principle.

Neut screwed up; hell, he admitted it and apologized for it. The 150 nations in the Pacific that were booted got screwed out of victory… and nothing will be done about it… nothing. You can convene 1000 councils… but they will all be geared for the next time, not to fix this blunder, right?

And by the way, I though you guys convened the great council last time the Pacific Liberation was aborted by Neut? What came out of that council? “Uh, don’t do it again… but if you do.. we’ll defend you tooth and nail!” ?!?!? I can’t believe this happened again.

To answer everyones question: NOTHING WILL BE DONE ABOUT LAST NIGHT.

There will be no reset. That would be, funny enough, unfair to FS.
There will be no action against Neut. As you can read above, he’s a hero to the Mods, and they all support his actions…even thought they agreed to no action… but that beating a dead horse.
There will be no new delegate in the Pacific, although they will tell us to keep trying.
There will be many threats by the Mods to anyone who continues to disagree with them in an intelligent manner. They’ll call it Flamebaiting…

This is life in NS… It's not fair, and never claimed to be...

Get used to it, or wait the 28 days and watch it die.

And, SalusaSecondus.. please stop with the pull for sympathy. We know your job is hard, but we expect you to come through on the big events.. if you blow the little ones, but come through on the big ones, we can’t complain. It’s when you run all the little ones right, and then blow the big one we get angry.


-Drakma-


P.S. Neut, I went back and reread your reasoning… I still don’t like it. It’s predicated on the idea that to be fair, you’ll stop this action in it’s tracks – because a glitch allowed it- but set up another day so the other sides is treated evenly. OOPS… Part 2 was not possible for you to deliver. Sorry, I still think you made yourself look bad by promising what you could not deliver.

So - and employer hires emplyees... but you refuse to ever deal with them because you need to hear it from the boss each and every time? So why would he bother hiring? Silly train of thought....


Neut had to make a tough decision. He looked at both sides of an argument that had valid points on each side, and came down with his decision. He did, however, realize that it was a tough call and so considered the technical resources at his disposal and clearly stated that it would be possible for a method of redress if he were overruled.

This was not a "blown call" as you keep whining, it was a scenario far outside the general expectations that the mods prepare for.

And in the end he was indeed over-ruled, but then he was also forbidden from using the redress that he had suggested. Not because he COULDN'T deliver (As you suggest), but because he was not allowed to. OR do you think he would have suggested something technically impossible to do? IT was an extraordinary situation so he propsed an extraordinary solution. And frankly - to my mind he got hung out to dry. To be publicly countermanded and also forbidden from correcting the call made him look bad. Indeed, Violet couldn't have made him look worse if she tried.

If Violet disagreed bit wasn't willing to go along with his proposed redress, she should have either a)stayed silent publicly and talked to neut privately about how she thought it should have gone, or b) came out with the change of ruling and either allowed Neuts proposed solution to go forward or at least taken responsibility for disallowing it.

Instead, she left Neut looking bad on both counts.

That is my opinion anyway.


-Z-

And there are many that believe my actions were the most beneficial for the game on the whole. And we're not talking about just Francos and his supporters, but people that are actively attempting to remove Francos from power.

There may be a few who are not FS supporters who agreed with your actions but I have not seen one. And I get around alot. Keep it real.

You might wanna "get around" a bit more.

SalusaSecondus, are you actually telling that the mods are stopping their discussions about what happened last night because I post to the forum? Are you serious? I didn't realize that I was that important. I assumed this situation was important enough for the game Mods to stop scanning the forum for people arguing against them. I assumed this situation was important enough for that the game Mods wouldn’t stop deliberation to fire off a defense of their butts. I guess I was wrong… (Wry Smile)

As for the sympathy.. I gave it you all the LAST TIME this happened. Sorry.., Like the Grinch, my heart is now 2 sizes too small on matters of the Pacific and Moderation.

The Pacific was a big deal. If not, it would not be generating 8 pages of text a day. I haven't seen one thread about poor Fred Johnson who's region got killed last night because the Mods were too busy in the pacific.

This issue with the pacific is large and obviously explosive. When the dung hit the fan in the pacific, I would assume that situation takes center stage... after all, there were 20 pages about Francos and people angry BEFORE yesterday.

So considering there are, what, a hand full of MODS - who have admitted they had the time to sit around and run IP scans... I think the issue of time is not going to fly. I also think the revisionism FLYING around by the Mods is insulting… Read the explanations from this morning and now and you will see a marked difference. Before it was… I goofed and we’re looking into it. Now it’s, Neut was think of the precedent it would set for all regions. Spin… on the Nation States Forum… Come on guys… be serious…

I will say, I feel sorry you, Salusa. You aren't a game mod, but you have all this ire heaped on your realm of control. I think the limited anger I have seen and personally seethed, is not as horrible as it could have been.



Zeppistan, I work for a large firm.. and yes... if I can't trust the Jacko I have to talk to, I stop talking to him and only speak to, e-mail to, and address HIS boss. When his boss gets mad enough at Jacko, because people keep bothering the boss instead of the guy who is supposed to do the work because the worker is unreliable... the boss does something about Jacko. That's how it works. Other wise, like now, people make errors that effect others with no ramifications. You gotta love corporate politics.

In this case, I have institutes the same logic. If I don't trust Neut, not because he's Neut and I hate Neut (which I don't), I will not accept his answer as final until the higher body stamps the approval. This might cause me some harm, but it's what you have to do sometimes.

If Neut says tomorrow, "Leave the region or I'll Ban you..." I'm going to think, "Hmmm... Not this again… Is he right this time, or should I wait for admin to bless this decision. If he does boot me - then I'm booted – big deal. If the admin over rides him again, I will have been correct and the Pacific will be free.

I think the fear of being banned verses the goal at hand is now more important then, "Ut oh... the Mods are here... and they demand XYZ." Sorry, but it's how the aggrieved party feels.

-Drakma-

Yeah, down with "Newt"!!

This just proves what I've been saying all along about him being a Nazi. He wants Francos the Nazi to continue his rule in The Pacific cuz they're both Nazis together!!

Yeah, down with "Newt"!!

This just proves what I've been saying all along about him being a Nazi. He wants Francos the Nazi to continue his rule in The Pacific cuz they're both Nazis together!!

Flaming....

Zeppistan, I work for a large firm.. and yes... if I can't trust the Jacko I have to talk to, I stop talking to him and only speak to, e-mail to, and address HIS boss. When his boss gets mad enough at Jacko, because people keep bothering the boss instead of the guy who is supposed to do the work because the worker is unreliable... the boss does something about Jacko. That's how it works. Other wise, like now, people make errors that effect others with no ramifications. You gotta love corporate politics.



Or the boss gets rid of the insubordinant trouble maker he has that just can't seem to follow the chain of command because he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. :roll:

Yeah, down with "Newt"!!

This just proves what I've been saying all along about him being a Nazi. He wants Francos the Nazi to continue his rule in The Pacific cuz they're both Nazis together!!

And you've obviously not followed all the happenings in the Pacific. Neut has been opposed to Francos from the start. Read up on your history before you start with the flaming.

Yeah, sure, that's just what he says. How can you say he's anti-Francos after last night?

For the record, I was cool with Neuts decision...
I was not cool with it's being killed half way...
I agree, [violet] couldn't have done more to make Neut look bad.

I don't think Neut is evil or stupid. I think he made a call he should not have tried to make.

I may sound angry with Neut, and in some ways I am, but I more angry that they didn't follow though on what they offered as a solution... and then did nothing to make amends.

Neut acts as an agent for the Admin every day. As an agent, the Admins have certain responsibilities. If their agents makes a statement, they have to back it up.

If one of my employees tells a client we can deliver some good or service at a price, and the client agrees.. That's a binding deal. I have to make good on that deal, and then bean the employee on the head. I can't come back to the client and say, "Oh no... that's too little. You'll have to pay more... AND LIKE IT!"

I guess this whole situation offends every business instinct and lesson I have within me.

-Drakma-

Yeah, sure, that's just what he says. How can you say he's anti-Francos after last night?

He was doing what he thought was best under the circumstances. He was stopping people from taking advantage of a glithc in the game. If the roles were reversed, you would be complaining that he didn't do enough to stop it.

Moral of the story: You lost, get over it.

Oh Nutty, I am so tempted, I really am. It looks like I'm the only guy who knows what you're doing...

Oh, and Drakma, this ain't a business, and the Heirarchy isn't exactly as established as in a Business firm. There are no paying customers, so loss of face isn't such a big deal. This is [violet]'s game. S/he built it, after all, and maintains it even now. S/he has always had the right to countermand the Mod's decisions. Does that mean a Mod should never make decisions unless [violet] wholeheartedly shows her support for them? Because that's kinda defeating the purpose of having them - ie to allow [violet] time to do important stuff like ironing out bugs...

Zeppistan, I work for a large firm.. and yes... if I can't trust the Jacko I have to talk to, I stop talking to him and only speak to, e-mail to, and address HIS boss. When his boss gets mad enough at Jacko, because people keep bothering the boss instead of the guy who is supposed to do the work because the worker is unreliable... the boss does something about Jacko. That's how it works. Other wise, like now, people make errors that effect others with no ramifications. You gotta love corporate politics.

-Drakma-

And -Drakma-, I am majority owner of my own corporation. And when somebody keeps sidestepping the trusted people I put in place to deal with them - depending on the circumstances I sometimes find their business to be more trouble than it's worth, and sometimes I need to replace staff. But that decision making process is not done by customer consensus. Which is to say, I don't let my individual customers dictate all of my staffing decisions because they have personal issues. IF my staff make errors - I deal with them internally and only relate any "ramifications" to the injured parties.

You gotta love putting proper mangement principles into practice.

-Z-

For the record, I was cool with Neuts decision...
I was not cool with it's being killed half way...
I agree, [violet] couldn't have done more to make Neut look bad.

I don't think Neut is evil or stupid. I think he made a call he should not have tried to make.

I may sound angry with Neut, and in some ways I am, but I more angry that they didn't follow though on what they offered as a solution... and then did nothing to make amends.

Neut acts as an agent for the Admin every day. As an agent, the Admins have certain responsibilities. If their agents makes a statement, they have to back it up.

If one of my employees tells a client we can deliver some good or service at a price, and the client agrees.. That's a binding deal. I have to make good on that deal, and then bean the employee on the head. I can't come back to the client and say, "Oh no... that's too little. You'll have to pay more... AND LIKE IT!"

I guess this whole situation offends every business instinct and lesson I have within me.

-Drakma-

Your business instinct must have been learned in a school and not in real life. Sometimes salespeople screw up and offer something they can't deliver. As manager, you either have to pony up if you want the business, or make the financially smart decision and tell the customer that you can't do it. Life is nice and black and white in a text book, but real life has lots of grey.

For the record, I was cool with Neuts decision...
I was not cool with it's being killed half way...
I agree, [violet] couldn't have done more to make Neut look bad.

I don't think Neut is evil or stupid. I think he made a call he should not have tried to make.

I may sound angry with Neut, and in some ways I am, but I more angry that they didn't follow though on what they offered as a solution... and then did nothing to make amends.

Neut acts as an agent for the Admin every day. As an agent, the Admins have certain responsibilities. If their agents makes a statement, they have to back it up.

If one of my employees tells a client we can deliver some good or service at a price, and the client agrees.. That's a binding deal. I have to make good on that deal, and then bean the employee on the head. I can't come back to the client and say, "Oh no... that's too little. You'll have to pay more... AND LIKE IT!"

I guess this whole situation offends every business instinct and lesson I have within me.

-Drakma-

Yea lol. The only people we don't string up by their bootstraps for that sorta stuff are car dealers and lawyers. :wink:

But I have to say that, although it wasn't Neuts fault, it was handled in a way that put alot of the responsibility for it in Neut's lap. Though, as for the taking advantage through glitches...there have been precedents.

And...well, I think that Neut was forced to violate the good word given...but, there's still a way to make that word good, just depends on how much you value your honor.

None of the NS authorities are accusing Neut of acting in bad faith, or with bias. It was a judgement call and that is one of the primary reasons why we allowed him to go forth with his actions. Nothing was black and white and so though we disagreed we him, we were willing to let him proceed.


Thank you for clarifying this. Neutered Sputniks acted with the consent of the mods. Giving consent was a bad judgement call, as was the undermining of Neutered's promise by the admin. Neutered Sputniks was not the only one making bad judgement calls last night. I am not at all suprised that people are leaving the game.

For what little it's worth, I now believe Neutered Sputniks acted in good faith.

---edit---
Hmm, I just ran across this (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1948064#1948064) post. Seems that Neutered Sputniks outranks most of the mods. Puts a somewhat different cast on what happened.

For anyone who's interested, I saved everything that happened last night on my hard drive in notepad, it is also posted in the West Pacific off-site forum....you can see it all here: (It's alot of reading...)

http://invisionfree.com/forums/The_West_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=216&st=0#entry2645

It's off-site powered by Invision, not Nation States.

Your business instinct must have been learned in a school and not in real life. Sometimes salespeople screw up and offer something they can't deliver. As manager, you either have to pony up if you want the business, or make the financially smart decision and tell the customer that you can't do it. Life is nice and black and white in a text book, but real life has lots of grey.

Nope, real world. Sorry. If you want to keep your reputation, you honor your deals. IF you don't care, then by all mean, screw the client. I think the MODS rep is important to them... so I think they should have honored the deal made.

And Nutty... You're killing me, man... Oi.

-Drakma-

Neut I appreciate what you tried to do. I was in on the invasion and was in the higher planning stages. For those of you who don't know I only say Neut did what he could after he was hung out to dry by Violet's silence. I say brave personal choice and I have a whole new respect for you. To say violet had no say is ludicrous, Neut came in quoting authority based on discussions with the other Mods and Violet. It seems again the Pacifics are not being recognized for the unique regions they are. They are repeatedly the source of the most nagging and explosive problems you have. The South Pacific with the endorsement bug ousting Goddessness and paving the path for the ejection queens XYZ affair and the Fathoms below. Now Franco in the Pacific. An interesting sidenote Neut took the lead in moderating both of those. Not making any conspiracy theories here but more correctly stating Neut is extremely proactive and not afraid to get a little dirty. For that you have my respect considering the abuse they generated for you. Perhaps its time for a new look at how the Pacifics and how they are treated.
For those of you who insist Franco can be ousted please contact me at your leisure since I've run out of ideas. I'll be more than happy to show you the pages of how we've determined he runs and how we've been frustrated by it. Please. I've seen invaders posting in this thread screaming we're whiners, fine. Put your money where your mouth is and help us instead of coming in to endorse Franco at the 12th hour like you did last night. Trust me I appreciate the irony of that. Invaders who prey on Nazis like starved mongrels coming in to save him at the last minute. Was that to prove a point about 'legitimate' invasion? Whatever the case it was morally bankrupt and I won't forget it.

~Westminster

*dons asbestos suit*
*prepares to be nuked*

OK, if the argument is, and I believe it is, that feeder regions are problematic because delegates can get a stranglehold and kick everyone into the Rejected Realms when they feel like it... and because the feeder regions have the highest populations because they ARE feeders... and people feel loyal to whatever Pacific they are place in first....

*dons second asbestos suit*
Perhaps the most reasonable way to deal with this...

*hides in bunker*
...is to make it impossible for ANYONE to be the delegate for the feeder regions. Ergo, you want an empire, you build it from the ground up (or invade it).

Basically speaking, since new players are ONLY dumped in the feeder regions on creation, they are already a special case.

If this were to be considered seriously, I would suggest that the current delegates be given a timetable so they know what they need to do to build their new empires. Because, after all, if everyone loves them so much, it should be easy to get people to follow them to their new base of operations.

If this has been suggested before and shot down, I apologise.

*waits to become Krispy Katganistan*

The problem with that solution Kat, is that we Mods would have to handle every single complaint coming from all the Pacifics, along with the Rejected Realms. That's a lot of spamming/flaming/etc. to handle.

<snip>
~Westminster

Westie, telegram.

In short, I screwed the pooch ;)

There was a lot more to the quote, but who cares? Seriously, this was a weird, wacky situation. And I think 100 out of 90 of us got too stressed out by it. Chill. Breathe.

Okay, I can deal with the fact there was no back-up scenario worked out before this. It happens. Bur, if there is to be a solution, is it worked out now before it actually occurs? Is there a general understanding, just to cut down on the confusion? If not, I hope this is a goal.


Neut did not favour anyone in this.

The only thing Neut is guilty of here is overmoderation. He made a call which he thought was in good judgement to halt the invasion to check with the admin whether it was legal.

However, knowingly or not, he killed off the invasion and left the Pacific a dictatorship again.

I have faith in the moderation team that they will resolve this matter fairly.


Agreed.


From where I'm standing, you just lost your cool, and made the wrong decision.

So did you. It happens. Have you rescended your call to quit the game then?


For example... getting rid of Francos Spain's power to eject *hint hint*

That would not be right either.


This situation is hilarious. In the past when invaders have complained about an anti-invasion bias, everyone sided with The Mods Who Could Do No Wrong and said that the invaders were just a bunch of whiners.

True, though I imagine only invaders will “get” it.

Edit: In response to beachcomber:

First off Francos's "rules" are illegal. They mean absolutely nothing to me as they are outside of the game rules. They are merely his personal justification for his oppresive rule.

Wake up, they aren’t. Look, I don’t want to be rude, but do you honestly think that he would still be in power if they were illegal? They aren’t. I plan on being a part of his downfall in this one region, but I will be honest on my interpretation of the facts, and ask you to do the same.


This situation is hilarious. In the past when invaders have complained about an anti-invasion bias, everyone sided with The Mods Who Could Do No Wrong and said that the invaders were just a bunch of whiners.

Now that you have all become invaders, you are outraged that the moderators have interfered with what you believe to be a legit invasion.

Also Francos has more support than you give him credit for. Just because he did not loudly spam dozens of regions trolling for endorsements does not mean that he doesn't have friends willing and able to help him out. He plays intelligently and fairly (certainly more intelligently and fairly than many of his detractors) and even though some of you have declared him "the most hated player in the game", he continues to defeat legions of enemies through superior game play. Sounds like what we have here is a great player and lot of poor sports who are upset about losing to a great player, instead of giving him the respect he deserves.

Many of you continue to post his rules for residing within the Pacific, as if they in and of themselves are a condemnation of his style of play. I think his rules are genius. If you want to stay in the region, you follow them, if you don't, you can move to any of 10,000 other regions. If you want to overthrow him, he's given you a blueprint for how to deceive him. And yet you still cannot beat him.

You are all willing to pay lip service to the concept of this being an open-ended game, but when someone creates a different power structure in his region and it doesn't sit well with your pre-conceived notions of how the game should be played, you cry foul.

Very, very funny.

The thing that's made me laugh the hardest in this thread, however, is this statement:

People like Francos, there's a screw loose there...he can't continue to toy with others lives as he has. He just can't.

As if God Himself is on your side because someone plays a game differently than you do...great stuff!

WOW...is that support for my actions last night?

Dude, in the midst of everything else you actually warned someone to stop flaming me in the forum. It seems these days all manner of odd events can occur.

Hopes the post is taken in a positive manner, but if not then that’s fine… the intent is perhaps more important then the perception


WOW...is that support for my actions last night?

I always support your actions when they are consistent with the rules and spirit of the game.

Your point about the unintended consequences of allowing players to exploit bugs is extremely valid. This is a dangerous standard that short-sighted players are trying to use to their advantage now without thinking about the consequences.

There is as yet no indication that the admin will be consistent with other glitches in the future.

And there are many that believe my actions were the most beneficial for the game on the whole. And we're not talking about just Francos and his supporters, but people that are actively attempting to remove Francos from power.

There may be a few who are not FS supporters who agreed with your actions but I have not seen one. And I get around alot. Keep it real.

Perhaps you do not intend to sound incredibly full of yourself, I could well read your intention wrong. And if I do, I am sorry for even introducing the idea.

Otherwise you can feel free to read a bit more of the backlog, though it is filling up. I am such a player.





Neut I appreciate what you tried to do. I was in on the invasion and was in the higher planning stages. For those of you who don't know I only say Neut did what he could after he was hung out to dry by Violet's silence. I say brave personal choice and I have a whole new respect for you. To say violet had no say is ludicrous, Neut came in quoting authority based on discussions with the other Mods and Violet. It seems again the Pacifics are not being recognized for the unique regions they are. They are repeatedly the source of the most nagging and explosive problems you have. The South Pacific with the endorsement bug ousting Goddessness and paving the path for the ejection queens XYZ affair and the Fathoms below. Now Franco in the Pacific. An interesting sidenote Neut took the lead in moderating both of those. Not making any conspiracy theories here but more correctly stating Neut is extremely proactive and not afraid to get a little dirty. For that you have my respect considering the abuse they generated for you. Perhaps its time for a new look at how the Pacifics and how they are treated.
For those of you who insist Franco can be ousted please contact me at your leisure since I've run out of ideas. I'll be more than happy to show you the pages of how we've determined he runs and how we've been frustrated by it. Please. I've seen invaders posting in this thread screaming we're whiners, fine. Put your money where your mouth is and help us instead of coming in to endorse Franco at the 12th hour like you did last night. Trust me I appreciate the irony of that. Invaders who prey on Nazis like starved mongrels coming in to save him at the last minute. Was that to prove a point about 'legitimate' invasion? Whatever the case it was morally bankrupt and I won't forget it.

~Westminster

While I have no problem with people coming in to endorse FS like the did, in his time of possible change, I have done exactly this. I am volunteering my time to this task. And I can tell you, as you know West, it will NOT succeed without working together. If people had contacted the WT page less then a week before the invasion, who knows how many more forces would could have thrown for the weekend invasion, not to mention to build a better net for when the glitch occurred.

The great part is that those of us who find this crying and wailing of those who were unable to oust Francos amusing, will be amused for a long time to come.

For God sake people, there's other regions. Move on and find another.

There's only one thing worse than a cheater, and that's a bug exploiter.

The great part is that those of us who find this crying and wailing of those who were unable to oust Francos amusing, will be amused for a long time to come.

For God sake people, there's other regions. Move on and find another.

There's only one thing worse than a cheater, and that's a bug exploiter.

Yes Bugs have rights too, no more hard labour for insects,
in every US jail there are close to 5 million Roaches, they were put ther ewithout a trial, and will die there with no chance of parole and why are they there, becuase they are roaches, they are being oppressed and exploited by the man,,, , ,
</humor>

The great part is that those of us who find this crying and wailing of those who were unable to oust Francos amusing, will be amused for a long time to come.

For God sake people, there's other regions. Move on and find another.

There's only one thing worse than a cheater, and that's a bug exploiter.

Yes Bugs have rights too, no more hard labour for insects,
in every US jail there are close to 5 million Roaches, they were put ther ewithout a trial, and will die there with no chance of parole and why are they there, becuase they are roaches, they are being oppressed and exploited by the man,,, , ,
</humor>

Viva la revolucion! Free the insects!

Corinthe must be stopped, before he exploits a bug again!

I just don't get why everyone wants bugs to be legal and fair.

Is it because this bug had the potential to help you?

What if it took away your founder status of a region you created? What if it was the same glitch happening to a region you were legitimately in charge of? What if it deleted your nation entirely?

These are all comparable bugs to losing your delegate status to sunspots or whatever (though apparently less likely, because none of them have occurred while the UN bug happened a lot).

Shouldn't the mods and the admin, as the "virtual dieties" of the game, fix the bugs so that the game rules are actually the rules in place? This is the equivalent of you making five years of payments on your car, and the loan company sends the title to your old address.

What should happen? Since it's a glitch, and these things happen rarely, should whomever is at the address get legal possesion of your car, just this once? Maybe it's ok if you drive a fancy car and all your neighbors hate you? Surely it's all right then, as long as you are disliked!

If it was an announced rule that UN delegates and founders lost their powers on the first of the month or something, that would be one thing... this was something entirely different.

I just don't get why everyone wants bugs to be legal and fair.

Is it because this bug had the potential to help you?

What if it took away your founder status of a region you created? What if it was the same glitch happening to a region you were legitimately in charge of? What if it deleted your nation entirely?

These are all comparable bugs to losing your delegate status to sunspots or whatever (though apparently less likely, because none of them have occurred while the UN bug happened a lot).

Shouldn't the mods and the admin, as the "virtual dieties" of the game, fix the bugs so that the game rules are actually the rules in place? This is the equivalent of you making five years of payments on your car, and the loan company sends the title to your old address.

What should happen? Since it's a glitch, and these things happen rarely, should whomever is at the address get legal possesion of your car, just this once? Maybe it's ok if you drive a fancy car and all your neighbors hate you? Surely it's all right then, as long as you are disliked!

If it was an announced rule that UN delegates and founders lost their powers on the first of the month or something, that would be one thing... this was something entirely different.

Nowhere here have I said its wrong to exploit or not to exploit the bug. I'm incensed that yet again when we act in good faith it seems we get the short end of the stick. I'm not pointing fingers at moderation here so don't rise to the occasion when there is none. I'd just appreciate it that for once, we could get a break. Had we not left it would have gotten out of hand and ugly. The recriminations would have been far more savage. Given the original ruling to let the situation sort itself out was upheld after we had been told to go home until it could be sorted out had the same effect as not allowing us to continue. The gripe here is we complied and didn't defy the authority and effectively we were rogered for doing so with no thought for the fact we followed their protocol. This will undoubtably not change. From a PR standpoint this is a nightmare from the word go. Both times any action in the Pacific has been undertaken where Franco was in legitimate danger of being unseated he has been spared not by his own work but by admin interference which was later proven to be erroneous. So on one hand we're wrong for exploiting a bug but he's right for benefitting from bad judgements? Forgive me if I seem dense but how is that fair? How is that to be rectified or is it? My beef transcends technical problems and how he plays the game. It directly ends with how can one side be in the right and be denied with no real opportunity for redress? I don't even know if that can be answered. ~Westie

I'd just appreciate it that for once, we could get a break.
You got a huge one. violet ruled that you could attempt to exploit a bug. How often does a game designer encourage you to exploit an error?

Besides, I'm not convinced you would have won anyway. Francos didn't play all the cards he had because he didn't need them.

So on one hand we're wrong for exploiting a bug but he's right for benefitting from bad judgements?
The bugs shouldn't have occurred in the first place. You're lucky that you were allowed to even try and use them to your advantage. You got an unexpected gift and you're complaining that it didn't come with a free spoon to with which to feed you everything else on your Xmas list.

I supported you too Neut. What am I, chopped liver?

*runs away sobbing hysterically*

I am in full support of Neut too! (Read my goodbye thread)
Neut simply lost his cool on the Pacific debacle. Neut has always been fair to us, and you have to admit the he's human, just like you and me.
There will be no more glitches and bugs from now on to exploit. Mod rule is clear and fair: "No NationStates player will get an unfair advantage over another player by the abuse of an technical error".
The real hard-core player has to find himself an army of 200+ nations that are able to attack every day in a split second (that number is that high, because Francos will see it coming, and will be ejecting you guys like a madman) and attack 3 or 4 minutes before the update (They have to endorse each other in another regio). You don't deserve any advantages at all! There are no hidden bonusses in the game. The rules are what they are.
Neut has acted in 100% fairness! Seeing what was happening, because of un unfair game glitch, he decided to risk his hide and step in. I admire him for that. I would have done the same in his shoes.
The only thing that would not be fair now, if you all banded together, to have him leave the game! His head on a stick, is not fair, and it looks more like crowd hysteria too me. Shape up people! Stop playing, if you have no fun anymore, but stop whining please.
I will not return, and feel no need to whine together with all my friends in the off-site boards.

-=Corinthe=-

Corinthe is right. We've been taking this too seriously. Now, we're paying a high price for that. Too high. The people who leave as a result of this are those we can't afford to lose.

I say we stop complaining about yesterday, stop blaming the mods and the admin for our defeat, and stop trying to retake the pacific. If we deserve to be able to take it, then we don't need to. There is nothing important about it which can't be recreated elsewhere. Even though we won't end up with a feeder region, new nations will find their way there. Francos can sit on his throne in the Pacific and do whatever the hell he wants with it. No one really needs to be protected from him. He may be able to force people to leave the region, but he can't force people to stay. That's something we do to ourselves, and that's the only reason he really has any power over anyone at all.

I'd like to apologise to Neutered Sputniks, [violet], and the rest of the moderators. And ask Corinthe to consider returning eventually, if we can prove that we deserve that...

it is also posted in the West Pacific off-site forum....you can see it all here: (It's alot of reading...)

http://invisionfree.com/forums/The_West_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=216&st=0#entry2645

When I click on the link I get a message that I am not authorized to view that forum. Is it your intent to make it accessible to the general public or will I have to join the board to read it?

Neut is a Senior Game Moderator and in times like this I expect him to make decisions in what he considers the best interests of the game. In this case, he decided to protect the rules of the game as they officially stand, and prevent players from exploiting a system error. This isn't the view I reached myself, but I completely understand why he made it. I absolutely support his right to make such a decision.

Why should we trust the decisions made by any but [Violet] if we now know for certain that Neut can and will be countermanded if [Violet] disagrees?
Because it's unlikely I will countermand a mod, and the mods are empowered to enforce game rules. If you don't follow the game rules, the mods will take action against you and I won't intervene.

the admin don't see fit to backup what thier mods say. on either case. they have broken faith with their players and that is a very poor thing to do.
My actions did make Neut look bad. They reflect poorly on me. In my defense, I wasn't aware at the time that Neut had overruled the earlier decision of non-intervention; I actually thought I was supporting the mod decision. In retrospect, given the late hour that I became aware of the situation, I would probably have stayed out of it. I'm happy to overrule moderators where I think it's appropriate -- and nobody should be shocked by that -- but here I came in too late to have much of an effect, made flippant remarks, and caused a valued moderator to look bad. This in a situation that was a tough judgement call anyway.

The part that enrages me the most is the fact Violet sends in Neut and Steph to stop what was going on instead of doing it themselves.
This didn't happen.

No offense, but I don't buy into that "tough luck" bull load. ... That's not tough luck. That's piss poor management with no consideration for the wronged parties.

You're right, but please bear in mind this wasn't management at all. This was an accident. And while everyone here tries to act as professionally as possible, it's not as if we run drills to practice our emergency response. It was a chaotic event, and everyone was affected, even the mods and I.

are the Moderators going to "recreate" the situation in the Pacific for us on a later date with the banned list cleared and Francos Spains regional control turned off and endorsements set back at 140 where they were before you intefered?
We won't be recreating the glitch. The whole situation was an accident: unplanned, chaotic, unprecedented. It advantaged some people and disadvantaged others. My view is that such things are part of life, and generally we should roll with them. There's a big difference between that and deliberately engineering the same situation. The glitch was unlucky; if we planned it it would have been simply unfair.

The fact that Pacific invaders lost an unexpected opportunity to unseat Francos Spain because of conflicting messages from the mods and I -- well, I truly understand how frustrating that was. The conflicting messages were really another glitch. If the loss of UN Delegate records was a fire, then the mixed moderator messages were the emergency crews sending out conflicting orders. Yes, we could have reacted much better, but I'm not going to fix that by deliberately lighting a second fire, and this time making sure our emergency crews do the right thing.

In the past when invaders have complained about an anti-invasion bias, everyone sided with The Mods Who Could Do No Wrong and said that the invaders were just a bunch of whiners.

Now that you have all become invaders, you are outraged that the moderators have interfered with what you believe to be a legit invasion.

:) No comment.

Many people may not be in a position to appreciate it, but this situation is probably the most interesting thing that's happened in NationStates in a long time.

And incidentally, and not that it matters, but personally I really hope someone manages to unseat Francos Spain. It's an amazing situation. Of course, I'm not going to help or hinder that coming about.

The only thing that would not be fair now, if you all banded together, to have him leave the game! His head on a stick, is not fair, and it looks more like crowd hysteria too me. Shape up people! Stop playing, if you have no fun anymore, but stop whining please.
I will not return, and feel no need to whine together with all my friends in the off-site boards.

-=Corinthe=-


Hold on a sec. What we're asking of you here is that you show a little honor and integrity and actually ACCEPT the fact that you've failed, but move on and try again until you succeed. When did our request suddenly become a) whining b) the topic of this discussion? You're the quitter here, if you got any guts you'll stay and fight, no matter what has happened before. And Neut, you did nothing wrong, except maybe lose your cool, as Corinthe put it.

Why, in the name of God, is this still a problem? Is no one capable of moving on with their lives? It's a frikkin feeder region. It's not even all that important. Bickering over this pathetically stale peice of political nonissue is tantamount to sniping at each other for want of any meaningful interaction.

Why is this important? It's not like the Pacific is anybody's ally, or that people ejected from the region are in dire straits. Christ, people get ejected from regions every day. They usually move on to better things. Frankly, bickering over an infant-herder region is asinine to the point of absurdity.

This is not something to risk reputations and grudges over. Grow up.

actually the sp was trying to get an alliance of all the pacifics going.

listen, my first nation is still in the feeder region of the sp. I like it there, i don't have to rp if i don't want to. we get interesting headaches andi like helping new people. I like the diversity in the sp. I have and do, live in other regions and i find them rather homogenious. the sp is a dynamic, ever changing realm, even with the regional government installed.

I would coutnter your arguement that the feeder regions aren't important. i believe that the feeder regions are the most important. it is where the newbies decide if they like the game or not, it's where they decided how they will run a region of thier own. the feeder regions should be thought of as a public trust if nothing else. treating these regions poorly is bad for business (but i should refer you to the comments by DickvanDyke on this he says it far more eloquently than i do). How many of us bought the book because of this game? if the new nations learn to associate bad feelings with the book, how many will be sold?

it is also posted in the West Pacific off-site forum....you can see it all here: (It's alot of reading...)

http://invisionfree.com/forums/The_West_Pacific/index.php?showtopic=216&st=0#entry2645

When I click on the link I get a message that I am not authorized to view that forum. Is it your intent to make it accessible to the general public or will I have to join the board to read it?

I apologize as I did not know it was set up this way. I am not in charge of changing that. It is alot of information, in order to post it all in here for easier access I feel the mods need to ok it first otherwise it would just be deleted anyway. Let me know if this is needed.

Ah yes the irrational responses, and cleverly convenient misunderstanding and misrepresentation of reality continue. The reality is really simple. The remedy...not forthcoming. The Game staff screwed us. Some are happy :lol: Some are not :( Some are downright angry :twisted:
The Admin must stand by their own regardless.
The few who supported the actions of admin are known to me and their twisting and convenient misunderstanding of rational arguments, while annoying are only effective for the masses and not actually valid.
I hate to inform all of you but the writing is on the wall. Francos will fall. This injustice will be avenged. So all of you twisters of fact, you revelers at the fall of justice, enjoy your day in the sun, your time will come. And it is coming soon :lol: 8) :lol: 8) :lol: 8)

You may quote me and tell eveyone I am wrong but those who know me and know what happened know that I am not wrong. We the NS community stand aggreived by this injustice and unless the situation is made right we will remember. Despite claims of good faith and crashers reveling in their irrational thought processes, a disconnect between the the Admin and the NS world has occurred again. FS will be removed as is right. And in the end the only thing that will be left is the longstanding memory that you cannot trust what a mod says. No ammount of talk or attack on me will reverse this. It is what we have here. The admin must address this or a ggod deal of the NS world will walk away with this leason. Those that choose to curry favor (as neut so elegantly put it) may find a way to support the actions of two nights ago. But don't believe it. It is just that...a psychophant whispering in the kings ear. I will go now and prepare for the battle to come. I would suggest that the ADmin try and salvage their respect.

would you care to be more specific?

It's ok, I'm working up a response to Grivinis right now...everyone just hang tight ;)

It is not neccesary for you to respond to me or to point out any chinks in the statements i have made. If you are comfortable with the way in which you are now viewed by so many nations...so be it. It may not have been your intention the way that things worked out. It may be you were stabbed in the back by your higher ups. No matter the damage has been done and no remedy is no remedy no matter what is said. It is just not acceptable.

as much as i love these overly romantic speaches...

actually if you look at the vast number of recent posts, neut's status with most people has gone up.. i know his tock with me is higher. yes in the past he was viewed as biased. i think it says something that when i was written to that he had threatened the un expulsion of 150 nations i believed it.

however, i think we have all been screwed by a boss, or had our wires crossed. this has made the man more human. take a look around. those who aren't knee jerking are taking the side that his decision was wrong, but that he wasn't wrong in making the decision.

as much as i love these overly romantic speaches...

actually if you look at the vast number of recent posts, neut's status with most people has gone up.. i know his tock with me is higher. yes in the past he was viewed as biased. i think it says something that when i was written to that he had threatened the un expulsion of 150 nations i believed it.

however, i think we have all been screwed by a boss, or had our wires crossed. this has made the man more human. take a look around. those who aren't knee jerking are taking the side that his decision was wrong, but that he wasn't wrong in making the decision.

I think you'll find his numbers are up because the people who are angry KNOW for a fact that A) nothing will be done B) [Violet] is untouchable C) The Mods have all defended Neut so there is nothing more to gain.

The pissed off bunch have abandoned the boards... we know there will be no justice for us. So only those wishing to remove their chap-stick using Neut's butt are felt. It's not that MORE people have come out to support the action of 2 days ago, it's that the people who complained and got nothing but, "oh.. the council will meet and decide to do nothing." have just stopped posting.

After reading [Violet]'s response, I am now very interested to know why [violet] didn't know about Neut's about face on the decided course of action. By their own words, The mods decided no to intervene... then Neut, alone, decided to step in. [Violet] didn't know that Neut had changed the plan without telling anyone, so he/she thought she was backing up the Mods.

Why didn't [Violet] know? Neut didn't tell [Violet]? [Violet] didn't bother to check? During the 6-7 hours that people were flooding into the Pacific, no one bothered to tell the senior admin all the facts? This is just a comedy of errors. It reminds me of 'The Producers," except Spring Time for Hitler was funny. 'Neut Saves the Pacific for Francos' is not.

-Drakma-

Here we go with a point by point rebuttal, ready with your flow-pad to take notes (yes, I was a LD debator at one time ;)):

Ah yes, the irrational responses, and cleverly convenient misunderstanding and misrepresentation of reality continue. The reality is really simple. The remedy...not forthcoming. The Game staff screwed us. Some are happy :)) Some are not :( Some are downright angry :twisted:
We shall shortly see who's responses are the more irrational. Ironically, your very next phrase is irrational. What misrepresentation of reality? Perhaps that's only your misconceptions of reality, that misconception being that anyone here owes you anything. Had the shoe been on the other foot, had you been in Francos' position, would you not have been hoping someone would step in and say "no exploitation of glitches?" That's the reality of the situation, that this was far more than just The Pacific.

The Admin must stand by their own regardless.
Actually, Admin unintentionally not standing by "their own" is what caused the largest amount of negative fall-out.

The few who supported the actions of admin are known to me[.] [A]nd their twisting and convenient misunderstanding of rational arguments, while annoying[,] are only effective for the masses and not actually valid.

Um, Griv, you're the one posting the irrational arguments, you just refuse to accept the rationality of the actions taken by Admin, not the other way around.

I hate to inform all of you[,] but the writing is on the wall. Francos will fall. This injustice will be avenged. So all of you twisters of fact, you revelers at the fall of justice, enjoy your day in the sun, your time will come. And it is coming soon --snip the smilies--

Good, take Francos down. Do it fair and square. That's what we've been stating for the past 1 1/2 months. "Twisters of fact" = liars, no? I wouldnt say anyone here's lied, Grivinis. I made a promise that I fully intended to keep, but that Admin said would be overly unfair to keep. And I dont believe anyone believes this to really be a fall of justice, rather a concern about the overall game, as opposed to one measly region out of 9,500+ regions.

yadda yadda yadda --snip-- yadda yadda yadda
So, this is all just to see who's reading the whole post or something? All your points are simply being reiterated time and again, and yet, as I've shown before, they dont stand to a rational counter. And I honestly feel that very little respect was lost at the end of the day. Perhaps a large number of players were upset immediately following, but as I said, at the end of the day, nearly everyone realized why I did what I did, and thus in many eyes I've gained respect for stepping in. Go figure, eh?


Ya know, Givinis, it would appear that you are out of line speaking for the entire NS community. Somewhere along the line the rest of The Pacific invaders and their supporters have caught what myself and others have been attempting to explain since I stepped in. When they caught on, they ceased to become quite as incensced as you would like to believe. You and -Drakma- would appear to be the only ones you speak for.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Senior Game Moderator

As usual the point has been lost. The point is simple. I am not blaming a specific party for the injustice. I like Drakma see this as a case where when in R/L an injustice is done, a remedy is forthcoming. The fact that that there have been and will be no remedy is the problem. I have had enough of twisted words by politicians. I am a warrior and will rely on my sword to cut through this politco nonsense. I leave you all to waste your time here...The game is afoot.

Francos can sit on his throne in the Pacific and do whatever the hell he wants with it. No one really needs to be protected from him. He may be able to force people to leave the region, but he can't force people to stay. That's something we do to ourselves, and that's the only reason he really has any power over anyone at all.
Thank you for the breath of fresh air. If anyone wishes to leave the Pacific, this may be of use: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76636. Really, if you are dissatisfied, please take a look and see what is on offer. As in real life, the way to defeat a dictator might not be by means of direct combat, however satisfying that may be for many of you. You know the passwords to your puppets, yes? You know how to move region? You are familiar with the concept of Ignore Cannons? Great. If you wish to fight on, you may do so. But here, I am giving you an alternative strategy for free.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

I just don't get why everyone wants bugs to be legal and fair.

Is it because this bug had the potential to help you?

What if it took away your founder status of a region you created? What if it was the same glitch happening to a region you were legitimately in charge of? What if it deleted your nation entirely?


I understand not everyone has said they are for exploiting the glitch (acknowledging Westis post below), but for everyone else… can you honestly say you would feel the same way if a glitch happened to negatively effect your region?





I Still have not heard a response to this…. Is such a glitch going to be considered fair play in the future?

thanks.

We get what we paid for... again.

-Drakma

Yes, Drakma, you got exactly what you paid for. Wait at tic!...this..game's...fre...

I just don't get why everyone wants bugs to be legal and fair.

Is it because this bug had the potential to help you?

What if it took away your founder status of a region you created? What if it was the same glitch happening to a region you were legitimately in charge of? What if it deleted your nation entirely?


I understand not everyone has said they are for exploiting the glitch (acknowledging Westis post below), but for everyone else… can you honestly say you would feel the same way if a glitch happened to negatively effect your region?


I Still have not heard a response to this…. Is such a glitch going to be considered fair play in the future?

I think that using a game glitch against any but Francos Spain is unfair... but then again... NO ONE ACTS LIKE FRANCOS SPAIN. I don't know anyone who has banned 700 nations. I know this is not fair to FS but then again, FS is unfair to everyone else.
If you want to debate fair and legal... Then what he is doing is legal, and what we tried to do was legal right up until Neut said it wasn't... and then [violet] flip flopped it. If you want to fight on fair, then FS is not fair to his region, so exploiting the glitch to his disadvantage is not fair, but it is just. In both cases,

The laws in his region are RP and fine... stupid but fine... but booting people from the region for no reason is just sh!tty.

There is a precident for exploiting glitches... and the ruling was made last time the Pacifics were in danger that the mods would not interfere, right?

If this was the first time, then fine... but it's not. The fire in the UN might be unique but the overriding situation of, don't interfer was set before. If we can't rely on precident and previous rulings, then their no law except the the power of the Mods to boot and ban you. That's not law... that's anarchy.

Actually, if you'll recall, the last time there was a glitch, we did interfere in the interest of fair gameplay...

I see very little statement of cold hard facts in either neutered sputnik's arguement nor grivinis.

niether is convincing.

(has an english degree)

Yes, Drakma, you got exactly what you paid for. Wait at tic!...this..game's...free...

Thanks, Neut...
You made my point.

-Drakma-

Yes, Drakma, you got exactly what you paid for. Wait at tic!...this..game's...free...

Thanks, Neut...
You made my point.

-Drakma-

Humor :lol: :lol: :lol:

-=Corinthe=-

I see very little statement of cold hard facts in either neutered sputnik's arguement nor grivinis.

niether is convincing.

(has an english degree)

Cold hard facts about what? Previous rulings?

Corinthe gets it :lol:

Thanks Corinthe! At least you get it!

Neut, I know you're just sitting on this forum anxious to pounce on anyone who speaks out against the admin or mods over the other nights debacle... but sometimes, it's just humor.

OK, Neut.. if last time there was a glitch and mods intervened (setting precedent), why was the original vote on Sunday not to intervene? Wouldn't it have been better to follow precedent then to buck precedent and vote to do nothing, then enforce it by threatening to boot everyone who supported Corinthe, and then have [violet] go against precedent and allow it with an hour to spare?

I think this is a good question, and some answer would be nice.

-Drakma-

Francos can sit on his throne in the Pacific and do whatever the hell he wants with it. No one really needs to be protected from him. He may be able to force people to leave the region, but he can't force people to stay. That's something we do to ourselves, and that's the only reason he really has any power over anyone at all.
Thank you for the breath of fresh air. If anyone wishes to leave the Pacific, this may be of use: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76636. Really, if you are dissatisfied, please take a look and see what is on offer. As in real life, the way to defeat a dictator might not be by means of direct combat, however satisfying that may be for many of you. You know the passwords to your puppets, yes? You know how to move region? You are familiar with the concept of Ignore Cannons? Great. If you wish to fight on, you may do so. But here, I am giving you an alternative strategy for free.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator
This solution doesn't make any sense; most of the invading force aren't after power or what-have-you, we're just nations ejected by Francos who want their home back.

If the U.S. got taken over by a dictator, we wouldn't leave; we'd stay there and fight him. Oh wait, that pretty muchly happened. And all of us are still here! It makes about as much sense to tell everyone who doesn't like Bush to leave the country as it does to tell people who don't like Francos to go away and leave it be.

thanks.

We get what we paid for... again.

-Drakma

Yep, and the moderators are worth every penny too.

:lol:

-Drakma-

thanks.

We get what we paid for... again.

-Drakma

Yep, and the moderators are worth every penny too.

That explaines your cheap shots :P

-=Corinthe=-

This solution doesn't make any sense; most of the invading force aren't after power or what-have-you, we're just nations ejected by Francos who want their home back.
Then fight on. Everyone has to make a choice, do what you feel is right. But that night was a game bug, it should never have happened. However, the war might still be worth it. It is up to you. I, for one, will hardly be opposing it.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

TG... we did fight.
We got organized... gathered intel... and when lightening stuck we moved.

And then the mods slapped us back and said, "no.. you can't go now. it's not fair. You can only go when FS has a clear shot at banning another 100 nations."

Come on.. this.. "Keep a stiff upper lip and keep fighting," is fine for the movies... but after you take your best shot at the most advantageous time and then divine intervention blocks you... again... the stiff upper lip line is more of an insult then encouragement.

If the guy played fair, this wouldn't be an issue... (NOTE I DIDN'T SAY HIS ACTION ARE ILLEGAL, JUST NOT FAIR). The only real chance we have is to strike when he is defenseless... but the mods have ruled that illegal.


-Drakma-

Come on.. this.. "Keep a stiff upper lip and keep fighting," is fine for the movies... but after you take your best shot at the most advantageous time and the divine intervention blocks you... again... the stiff upper lip line is more of an insult then encouragement.

-Drakma-

That was just a window of oportunity opening. There is still a way to defeat him, but you guys are not organzized enough to do that.
Defeating Francos takes 100% commitment. I weared myself complete out for it, and now it's your turn, or just cease and desist your whining.

-=Corinthe=-

I would like to recommend that people stop using the word, "whining." Both sides keep saying the other guys, whining... it does nothing but insult people. Also, not everying is whining...

You can overuse a word to the point of stupidity... whining has hit that mark.

-Drakma-

No Corinthe i must disagree. you do not have to wear yourself out. You just need a better plan. The plans so far have been so straight forward that they are almost telegraphing what is going on. The only dissatisfaction with the glitch thing is the change in status of the legality of exploiting it.
I wholely support the stand that glitches are not part of the game and should not be allowed to be used :)
I hope that in the future tests of this ruling will remain consistent.
Now that we have determined that no further action will be taken by any administrative or moderating rulings, I would suggest that everyone supporting Freedom in the Pacific move their UN Status to a nation not banned from The Pacific so that we can get on with the project at hand. Please do this at your earliest possible convenience as operations in the Pacific are most definately ongoing.
Soon, very soon 8)

Trixia would like to say they never have used 'whining' preferring the word 'whinging' instead :wink:

I would like to recommend that people stop using the word, "whining." Both sides keep saying the other guys, whining... it does nothing but insult people. Also, not everying is whining...

You can overuse a word to the point of stupidity... whining has hit that mark.

-Drakma-

Oh stop whining :wink:

TG... we did fight.
We got organized... gathered intel... and when lightening stuck we moved.
Like Corinthe suggested, 300 UN nations with pre-swapped endorsements entering the Pacific 5 minutes before the update. He can only eject so fast. Plan it, pick a day, do it, no multying, legal. Just don't count on having exploitation of a game bug being ruled in your favour.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Noone counted on it. We were told it was OK. We listened to a mod ruling and got jerked around. God I hate revisionist history. Like we didn't have a different plan ready to go? This screwed up the other plan mere than anything. It exposed UN eligable nations not banned from the Pacific. Now we must reset.

I would like to recommend that people stop using the word, "whining." Both sides keep saying the other guys, whining... it does nothing but insult people. Also, not everying is whining...

You can overuse a word to the point of stupidity... whining has hit that mark.

-Drakma-

Then stop whining.

Frankly, you blew any credibility to your position when you stated:

I think that using a game glitch against any but Francos Spain is unfair...

This is personal for you, and you want special consideration regarding this one player that you acknowledge would not normally be acceptable under game rules. Which is to say, that if YOU were the target, you'd be screaming bloody murder if the Mods didn't step in and protect you the way Neut did for Franco.

You can't have it both ways.

The role of the Mods is to make this game fair for all according to the rules. That is what Neut did. It wasn't handled as gracefully as it should have been, but the Mods also are under no obligation to keep explaining how something happened until everyone (or, more specifically - YOU) is satisfied.

Frankly, if I were the mods at this point I would simply stop restating their position. It happened. It is over. Move on.

Because those of you who have made it personal will never be satisfied with the responses unless they handed you Franco as a peace offering.

And that ain't gonna happen.


-Z-

TG, I bet he could ban 300 nations so fast you'd be impressed. Hell, when he banned 40 nations in 3 minutes, Neut said it was completely possible. I bet if he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, some mods would claim it's possible. Ok.. now I'm whining! DAMN!

(stomps off to hit Grivinis)

-Drakma-

TG... we did fight.
We got organized... gathered intel... and when lightening stuck we moved.

And then the mods slapped us back and said, "no.. you can't go now. it's not fair. You can only go when FS has a clear shot at banning another 100 nations."

Come on.. this.. "Keep a stiff upper lip and keep fighting," is fine for the movies... but after you take your best shot at the most advantageous time and then divine intervention blocks you... again... the stiff upper lip line is more of an insult then encouragement.

If the guy played fair, this wouldn't be an issue... (NOTE I DIDN'T SAY HIS ACTION ARE ILLEGAL, JUST NOT FAIR). The only real chance we have is to strike when he is defenseless... but the mods have ruled that illegal.


-Drakma-

AMEN BROTHA!!!!

He would eject 500 nations and it would still be OK.

TG... we did fight.
We got organized... gathered intel... and when lightening stuck we moved.
Like Corinthe suggested, 300 UN nations with pre-swapped endorsements entering the Pacific 5 minutes before the update. He can only eject so fast. Plan it, pick a day, do it, no multying, legal. Just don't count on having exploitation of a game bug being ruled in your favour.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Sounds like a good plan..

So when does he reach the point of griefing
10, 20, 50, 100, 150, the whole invading army
So we need 150+- to over come his endorsements
PLUS
another say what 100, 200, 300! So he can eject his little hart out?.


But that another can of worms that makes no sense to me.

Sorry double post

I think the figure was like 1000+ bans before it became an issue. Banning 1000 nations is only 20% It's sucks for the 1000, but it's legal by Mod standards.

I think is using his power as a delegate in a manner that wasn't considered by the games designers. If so, shame on them...

Also, the idea of getting 200 nations to move before the update is fine.. unless the update is at 4:00 am in your timezone... try getting 200 people to be awake in the wee hours of the morning is next to impossible. Trust me, this was the first of many bad ideas we thought up.

Logistically, it's virtually untenable. We have someother ideas... but it will take another set of month to plan. Ugh.

-Drakma-

I think the figure was like 1000+ bans before it became an issue. Banning 1000 nations is only 20% It's sucks for the 1000, but it's legal by Mod standards.

I think he's using his power as a delegate in a manner that wasn't considered by the games designers. If so, shame on them...

Also, the idea of getting 200 nations to move before the update is fine.. unless the update is at 4:00 am in your timezone... try getting 200 people to be awake in the wee hours of the morning is next to impossible. Trust me, this was the first of many bad ideas we thought up. It's great on paper... but then so is Howard Dean.

Logistically, it's virtually untenable. We have someother ideas... but it will take another set of month to plan. Ugh.

-Drakma-

TG, I bet he could ban 300 nations so fast you'd be impressed. Hell, when he banned 40 nations in 3 minutes, Neut said it was completely possible. I bet if he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, some mods would claim it's possible.
There are limits. How fast can you load a page on a broadband connection? Two seconds, if the server is working OK? That's one nation. Why attribute God-like powers to him, if you seek his defeat?

-Drakma- TG

TG, I bet he could ban 300 nations so fast you'd be impressed. Hell, when he banned 40 nations in 3 minutes, Neut said it was completely possible. I bet if he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, some mods would claim it's possible.
There are limits. How fast can you load a page on a broadband connection? Two seconds, if the server is working OK? That's one nation. Why attribute God-like powers to him, if you seek his defeat?

We're not the one giving him powers like that ya'll are.

2 seconds...
that's 150 nations in 5 minutes.

If he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, would you think that's shadey? How about when he banned like 45 in two minute. If he's not got god like powers, then he has a wicked slick scrpit (which I know the mods have all disavowed all knowegde and evidence of.. I know I know... he just copy and pastes like the wind... I know...)

(sign)

TG... we did fight.
We got organized... gathered intel... and when lightening stuck we moved.
Like Corinthe suggested, 300 UN nations with pre-swapped endorsements entering the Pacific 5 minutes before the update. He can only eject so fast. Plan it, pick a day, do it, no multying, legal. Just don't count on having exploitation of a game bug being ruled in your favour.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Actually, Ballotonia had a masterplan too, with very little risk, and also involved very fast movement. It was childishly easy :) I knew what he was doing, but he and his friends kept it 100% secret :lol:
If you want to know it, you better contact him. I don't think he's gonna tell you though :wink:
If Ballotonia gives me permission, I might tell. I might be wrong still.

-=Corinthe=-

Corinthe check your telegrams.

2 seconds...
that's 150 nations in 5 minutes.

If he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, would you think that's shadey? How about when he banned like 45 in two minute. If he's not got god like powers, then he has a wicked slick scrpit (which I know the mods have all disavowed all knowegde and evidence of.. I know I know... he just copy and pastes like the wind... I know...)

(sign)

Which shouldn't be allowed anyway. Should be some kind of time limit..like a flood control.

Corinthe check your telegrams.

My box is spammed full E-mail = Kitty_Persoonlijk@hotmail.com.

I'm not allowed to go in the game. That would mean braking my parenths trust again :cry:

-=Corinthe=-

Thank you Corinthe. He will share it with us when he is ready. We have a close working relationship. Please do not discuss "fight club" (plans) here as FS obviously doesn't need anymore help.

You however are in popular demand. I would welcome you to join any number of organizations who would support your "actions". You may find you can cut down on the effort you need to exert when you have a little help from some friends. :lol:

DAMN!!

okay

oooof.

-D

okay check your email :)

okay check your email :)

I did, sorry :cry: I'm not gonna give away classified information. There is no need for that. Most likely these people not gonna do it a second time, anyway :(

Go ask Crazy Girl, if she can help you.

-=Corinthe=-

You never know until you try.

Quit being so depessed!! You showed it could work.

It is to bad that you didn't work the 4 other attacks that weekend. MOds or no. Francos would have been gone.

Don't ever sale yourself short..you were robbed and that doesn't reflect bad on you. It will be done again until he is gone. Plain and simple!!

TG, I bet he could ban 300 nations so fast you'd be impressed. Hell, when he banned 40 nations in 3 minutes, Neut said it was completely possible. I bet if he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, some mods would claim it's possible.
There are limits. How fast can you load a page on a broadband connection? Two seconds, if the server is working OK? That's one nation. Why attribute God-like powers to him, if you seek his defeat?

atually on my service (sympatico dsl) it takes .16 seconds to load a page.(or 16 seconds for a forum page. :P ) so it's possible. and now we know he's on broadband. ;p dont' forget he let somethign slip. he can only have 200 nations on his ban list.

actually about the facts, I have not seen any links in the arguemtns put forwards. (or page references) anyalysis is nice but it needs to be done in conjunction with the presented facts. niether argument presented facts, they simply gave thier feelings on the matter.

Actually, Ballotonia had a masterplan too, with very little risk, and also involved very fast movement. It was childishly easy :) I knew what he was doing, but he and his friends kept it 100% secret :lol:
If you want to know it, you better contact him. I don't think he's gonna tell you though :wink:
If Ballotonia gives me permission, I might tell. I might be wrong still.
If you feel I can be trusted with it, very well. You know my record on such things. :wink:

Bistmath,

What kind of facts are you looking for?

We have all kinds of intel on him, but until we can prove something, we're not going to post what we know. It's an Intel nighmare to tell the enemy what you have on him.

Also, I think if you read the earlier pages of this 30 page forum thread, you'll see people complained about scripts and some folks listed how fast he banned people and the number of bans.

Is that what you are looking for?

-Drakma-

Bistmath,

What kind of facts are you looking for?

We have all kinds of intel on him, but until we can prove something, we're not going to post what we know. It's an Intel nighmare to tell the enemy what you have on him.

Also, I think if you read the earlier pages of this 30 page forum thread, you'll see people complained about scripts and some folks listed how fast he banned people and the number of bans.

Is that what you are looking for?

-Drakma-

The Moderators and the Technicians for Nation States have investigated this claim to some length that he runs scripts.. I can tell you that no such evidence was found.

Stephanie
Forum Mod

Bistmath,

What kind of facts are you looking for?

We have all kinds of intel on him, but until we can prove something, we're not going to post what we know. It's an Intel nighmare to tell the enemy what you have on him.

Also, I think if you read the earlier pages of this 30 page forum thread, you'll see people complained about scripts and some folks listed how fast he banned people and the number of bans.

Is that what you are looking for?

-Drakma-

no. i have read the entire thread. ( my butt is indeed square from sitting in the chair.) i was referring to an earlier post about what grivnis has said, and neutered sputniks response. I, too am working with good intel. I was actually the one who first heard about the possibility of a script from my fiancee the cold highlands. (sorry guys, all my fault.)

i am just sick of heaily emotional speeches.

If anyone has concerns regarding scripts, etc. Please contact me with them.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

Something else was mentioned, but got buried in a layer of poo:

Francos had to deal with the same flip-flopping the invader squad had to deal with. He was told that he would be safe an hour or two right before the update. He could have gone to sleep at that point, assuming that what the moderators had said would be true, and that he could not possibly be deposed.

Would you have had the same sense of self-righteous injustice if Francos had lost his delegateship due to the very same process that you are currently complaining about? I think not.

All this nonsense aside...what is now the current ruling on bug exploits? Are they to be assumed to be fair game until told otherwise, or the other way around? Is it likely that violet would make the same decision again, should this happen again?

All this nonsense aside...what is now the current ruling on bug exploits? Are they to be assumed to be fair game until told otherwise, or the other way around? Is it likely that violet would make the same decision again, should this happen again?

As a player I would answer; "Sure, the ruling was very clear! The next glitch will be the downfall of Francos :lol:

If I was a GameModerator, I would answer; "That will be decided on a case by case base, so you better not exploit glitches! Our action might dissapoint you."

-=Corinthe=-

I would like to recommend that people stop using the word, "whining." Both sides keep saying the other guys, whining... it does nothing but insult people. Also, not everying is whining...

You can overuse a word to the point of stupidity... whining has hit that mark.

-Drakma-

Right on. Legitimate grievances are commonly dismissed as "whining". Taunting people in their times of distress or unhappiness is a very common human behaviour, but no less despicable for it.

This solution doesn't make any sense; most of the invading force aren't after power or what-have-you, we're just nations ejected by Francos who want their home back.

If the U.S. got taken over by a dictator, we wouldn't leave; we'd stay there and fight him. Oh wait, that pretty muchly happened. And all of us are still here! It makes about as much sense to tell everyone who doesn't like Bush to leave the country as it does to tell people who don't like Francos to go away and leave it be.
Yes, I know that it was the home of a lot of us. But there's nothing important about it that you can't take with you, is there? Surely the people are what made it important, and by attempting these invasions we risk losing them...


I remember when the home of my first nation was invaded, back in June or July or so. The invaders were paying close attention around update time, and they'd set a password, so there wasn't much we could do to take it back - we didn't have a founder, and knew little about the griefing rules (I can't remember if they were even finalised back then). Furthermore, the only encounter we'd had with the moderators was the deletion of Ered Luin, so we were a bit wary of the forums.

So we created a new region and began leaving, By the time a small percentage of our nations had left, the invaders were practically begging us to stay. I think that's because the only power which is really worth anything to this kind of person is power over someone who doesn't want them to have that power. They're bullies and cowards, and walking away when they can't stop you is as effective as taking the power back from them. If it turns out that Francos is that type of person, then you can win by leaving him alone. If it turns out that he isn't, then would throwing him out make us any better than he is? The Pacific is his home now too.


If my home country was taken over by a dictator in the real world, then I probably would want to stay and fight. But if that risks the lives of people important to me, then I'd try to leave instead. And this isn't the real world. Francos can't stop people from leaving the Pacific like a real-world dictator could, but if we try to fight him then we still risk losing people. I don't want to see that keep happening.

2 seconds...
that's 150 nations in 5 minutes.

If he banned 150 nations in 5 minutes, would you think that's shadey? How about when he banned like 45 in two minute. If he's not got god like powers, then he has a wicked slick scrpit (which I know the mods have all disavowed all knowegde and evidence of.. I know I know... he just copy and pastes like the wind... I know...)

(sign)

Which shouldn't be allowed anyway. Should be some kind of time limit..like a flood control.

Why? That would rob legitimate delegates of the capability to act in a timely manner against invaders to their region.

Any way of removing some of Franco's "Advantages" will only remove the advantages of those who are in power fair and square. You are effectively asking for the Mods to be Unfair and Partial in this regard, which, if I recall, is what they technically are not supposed to do for the good of the game.

Remember people, Defenders have the advantage, they always have, and this is highly unlikely to change. That said, Invaders can and have managed to get through similar obstacles. This can be done. So you weren't able to take advantage of a game bug? It wouldn't have been there normally. By all rights, all that's happenned is exactly what would have happenned if it had never been there at all. Technically, you've lost nothing, and you may have even got yourself some intel in the process...