NationStates Jolt Archive

well, of course he doesn't use that nation ;)
it's really easy to make a lot new nations, i recently learned that ;)

You learn something new every day :lol:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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May I remind you that FS has transferred his UN membership? We don't know what nation is using for that and against what Feeder region. You can check. FS hasn't left the Pacific.

May I remind you that FS has transferred his UN membership? We don't know what nation is using for that and against what Feeder region.
Yep, he gave The Pacific to a schoolbuddy, and moves to the next Pacific :P
But I don't care, since none of the other Pacific's delegates cared about the situation :P
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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or maybe he's trying to get some sleep, he was online a lot ;)

...and that's against the rules...?

...and that's against the rules...?

It is just a friendly warning, and me not caring is not against the rules either :wink:
Maybe delegates should learn something.
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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Not against the rules, but when all five Feeder regions have an acute attack of FSitis, and you are dealing with whining nations from the five most populated regions, I want to look back and say:

"See? I told you so..."

Boy I am evil...

Not against the rules, but when all five Feeder regions have an acute attack of FSitis, and you are dealing with whining nations from the five most populated regions, I want to look back and say:

"See? I told you so..."

Boy I am evil...

We all dislike the "I told you so" guy :wink:
Anyway, I have strong suspicion he is going for Loop's position now.
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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OK, I dont think Loop's terribly concerned about a hostile takeover

OK, I dont think Loop's terribly concerned about a hostile takeover

Well, Loop may be Delegate but natives may think otherwise about the situation. There has been enough whining about it anyway. Let's hope we have learned from the experience :wink:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

There has been absolutely no evidence of Francos' use of a script to control his region. The Mods have been watching very closely, and Salusa has been investigating these allegations and as of yet, no evidence has been found of Francos' using a script.

Well, there are legal scripts as well, right? I don?t think he is autmaticly kicking people out with a script, but I am sure he is using something. Those who appose him are using the same things, as I see.

Yes, there are legal scripts. However, my (admittedly limited) review of the evidence available shows no evidence of of Francos Spain using any illegal scripts whatsoever.

To the people acusing FS and others of using scripts, we do investigate these claims when we have the time, please do not automatically assume that because something isn't going your way that the other people may be cheating.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Sal I wasn't insinuating that it wasn't going my way I hope you didn't think that. I am convinced he's scripting based on the timing of the ejections, he's just smart enough to install a timing modifier to avoid easy detection. If I'm wrong I'm incredibly impressed at the level of work he's put in to keep control and more than worried at the lack of a life.
As far as opposition being fractured yes it is, incredibly so. I'm surprised many of you haven't figured out who to contact. Alliances are incredibly important here. Spend some energy on it. Think hard enough and you'll figure out where they are since there is already a major project in the works.

I let the original thread for this die, as I got a complaint about spamming, so this text isn't read by many people. It is the rant I wrote when FS kicked me from The Pacific. The spam complaint wasn't about the rant, but about the fact I started "yet-another-pacific-crybaby" thread. I still think it deserves to be read, but not in his own thread, just in one "pacific-crybaby" related, so:

Actually, I just have been banned from the Pacific Region for having close to 100 endorsements, so threatening the power base of the UN Delegate there, Franco's Spain.

BUT now he claims my ejection was related to a conspiracy to overthrow him. So rightful moves to achieve the Delegacy are a conspiracy. He really starts to resemble the dictator whose name he carries.

Actually I was acting on my own. I saw that his actions were selfish and wrong, and acted to try to remove him.

I really think that countries like him shouldn't hold the power of UN Delegacy in regions like the Pacifics.

Be aware that besides him there are two more nations associated (quietly) to him, but the fact that they have (relatively) important numbers of endorsements makes them backup delegates. So, the nations of Infernoice and Poskrebyshev must be banned along with him.

I think he (and associates) should be banned from ALL pacific regions. Let him try his tricks on regions more aware.

If you think I am going a little overboard because he banned me, think again. Just when I saw the name he chose for his nation, I wanted his nation deleted and him personally (at least) seriously injured.

You see, I am born in Spain and know who Francisco Franco Bahamonde is. He is the man responsible for the Spanish Civil War. One million deaths.

Personally, he is responsible of me not meeting my aunt, my mother's sister, as she died from a grenade explosion at age five. Result from the Civil War.

That from a personal point. Also I am born in Catalonia (we write and pronounce it Catalunya, read Orwell, please), an ex-nation annexed by Spain. The last remnants of Catalan freedoms and rights were removed in the Spanish Succession War, in 1714. September eleven to be more precise. Does that date sound a bell? It is the date the Catalans chose never to forgive. It is our National Holiday. A day of remembrance. Well, Franco the dictator made a special case of prosecuting and executing Catalan people. He forbade Catalan language from being publicly used and changed cities and towns names to make them more Spanish-sounding.

Sorry. As you see, it is a subject that gets me carried away. So, I think that "just" banning him is the right thing to do, instead of roasting him alive, that it is more close to my liking. I understand that he has the right to have that name, the same as other can choose to be "Castro's Cuba", "Hitler's Germany", "Pinochet's Chile", "Stalin's USSR" or "Mao's China". He is entitled to that name by the diversity that NS nations must have.

But still I think he must be punished for his actions.

I let the original thread for this die, as I got a complaint about spamming, so this text isn't read by many people. It is the rant I wrote when FS kicked me from The Pacific. The spam complaint wasn't about the rant, but about the fact I started "yet-another-pacific-crybaby" thread. I still think it deserves to be read, but not in his own thread, just in one "pacific-crybaby" related, so:

Actually, I just have been banned from the Pacific Region for having close to 100 endorsements, so threatening the power base of the UN Delegate there, Franco's Spain.

BUT now he claims my ejection was related to a conspiracy to overthrow him. So rightful moves to achieve the Delegacy are a conspiracy. He really starts to resemble the dictator whose name he carries.

Actually I was acting on my own. I saw that his actions were selfish and wrong, and acted to try to remove him.

I really think that countries like him shouldn't hold the power of UN Delegacy in regions like the Pacifics.

Be aware that besides him there are two more nations associated (quietly) to him, but the fact that they have (relatively) important numbers of endorsements makes them backup delegates. So, the nations of Infernoice and Poskrebyshev must be banned along with him.

I think he (and associates) should be banned from ALL pacific regions. Let him try his tricks on regions more aware.

If you think I am going a little overboard because he banned me, think again. Just when I saw the name he chose for his nation, I wanted his nation deleted and him personally (at least) seriously injured.

You see, I am born in Spain and know who Francisco Franco Bahamonde is. He is the man responsible for the Spanish Civil War. One million deaths.

Personally, he is responsible of me not meeting my aunt, my mother's sister, as she died from a grenade explosion at age five. Result from the Civil War.

That from a personal point. Also I am born in Catalonia (we write and pronounce it Catalunya, read Orwell, please), an ex-nation annexed by Spain. The last remnants of Catalan freedoms and rights were removed in the Spanish Succession War, in 1714. September eleven to be more precise. Does that date sound a bell? It is the date the Catalans chose never to forgive. It is our National Holiday. A day of remembrance. Well, Franco the dictator made a special case of prosecuting and executing Catalan people. He forbade Catalan language from being publicly used and changed cities and towns names to make them more Spanish-sounding.

Sorry. As you see, it is a subject that gets me carried away. So, I think that "just" banning him is the right thing to do, instead of roasting him alive, that it is more close to my liking. I understand that he has the right to have that name, the same as other can choose to be "Castro's Cuba", "Hitler's Germany", "Pinochet's Chile", "Stalin's USSR" or "Mao's China". He is entitled to that name by the diversity that NS nations must have.

But still I think he must be punished for his actions.


Well, it's The Pacific and not Spain. I just noticed that España is not founded yet. You can be founder of your own regio. All respect for your dead relatives, this Francos is just a Fat Crosseyed Nerd, that is not related to the Franco you are talking about. I say, go found España, and Viva la Vida!
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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Actually, besides the whining about being kicked out of the Pacific, the point of the post was that I start to understand what survivors of the Holocaust and his sons might feel when they get here and see the "bunch'o'nazis" we have here.

I understand that NS must have a ideologic diversity, ranging from extreme Left to extreme Right, so you cannot avoid having them (and, come to think of it, if noone really had signed on the nazi chariot (panzer?), I think someone would have to be designed "Nazi of the Week" (or the month, or the day) in order to provide that diversity).

But still I cannot avoid some teeth-clenching at the sight of FS's name.

And fortunately the Spanish flag NS uses is the modern one, not the one with the chicken.

(And one more thing you seem haven't grasped from the post: what you have done is similar to calling an Irish or Scottish, an English. I am Catalan, I have lived under Spanish rule during all my life and my real nation, close to 300 years. Did you know that the Spanish had to build a Citadel in the middle of the city for riot control? Using cannons against civilian population, very nice, isn't it? This citadel no longer exists, but you can see where it was located in a map of Barcelona. Look for the Zoo, and you'll see the citadel profile. Ack. Carried away again. Sorry.)

...Fat Crosseyed Nerd...

Please keep the flaming down, thank you.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

...Fat Crosseyed Nerd...

Please keep the flaming down, thank you.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Sorry :oops: Just trying to say that he was not alone on this.
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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Sorry :oops: Just trying to say that he was not alone on this.

That's fine, just be careful not to insult people in the process. :wink:

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

That's fine, just be careful not to insult people in the process. :wink:

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

I'm not sure, but this could even be a double :oops: , but I drop it now.
Sorry again :oops:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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Oh, my. I expect the "roasted alive" bit doesn't count as flaming. It was just a personal preference. Better turn away from the heat...

Sadly, Evil Sith, Francos has been given carte blanche to eject anyone he darn well feels like, so while I applaud your effort at trying to take his delegacy in a legitimate manner, I have to say, "Tough noogies."

And I understand your sentiment about the images conjured by his name, and how that's as offensive to you as the Nazi nations are to many other users here. But until he starts, say, flaming, there's really not much anybody can do.

On another note, if any of the booted nations don't want to get involved in the fight anymore and just want a new home where you can settle in and live in peace, The South Pacific is open and welcome. We love getting new people.

*wonders what it will take for everyone to realize that if the Mods step in and remove Francos for his mehtods of protecting his region from invasion, then no other region will ever be safe from invasion*

*wonders what it will take for everyone to realize that if the Mods step in and remove Francos for his mehtods of protecting his region from invasion, then no other region will ever be safe from invasion*
As much as I like to see it otherwise, I must say It's true. Any delegate in a Region, without Founder, needs carte blanche to defend it. Or the delegacy would change as invaders see fit. Only this delegate didn't hesitate to boot my puppet, just for coming from another Pacific. He doesn't bother to make others like him, because he's having the time of his life, at the cost of many players
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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It's not really carte blanche. It's more like taking into account the number of puppets that were created to invade and the number of outside invaders attempting to help...

It's not really carte blanche. It's more like taking into account the number of puppets that were created to invade and the number of outside invaders attempting to help...

I personally see this as a griefing strategy. When my founder would defend my regio that way, I would have chasen everyone away, including natives. This is a feeder region, so he can get away with it, without ever coming close to 20% nations booted. Thus I see it as "carte blanche" because he has te work real hard to make the region ever 20% smaller than it is now. Nations be popping up all the time. I rather have a mod as founder in these places (Or someone else who is not that powerhungry), that would have avoided allot of problems, because this thing is far from over yet :cry:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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If we were to remove the ability to become UN Delegate of a feeder region..invasions become moot & new nations can stay until they are ready to move.

Spammers of course will be reported via the Getting Help section.

By removing the UN delegate position in the feeder regions nations that wish to become UN delegates would have to leave the feeder region + it would cease giving feeder regions a almighty punch when it comes to voting on a UN proposal.

Well thats my suggestion anyway.

Anyway, I have strong suspicion he is going for Loop's position now.

I'd be impressed if he could do it. Loop is a former member of the ACC, as is Lady Rebels. They have many of the former ACC members sitting in their regions as trip wires. I suspect Loop has booted nearly as many individuals as FS, only those people weren't invaders and didn't try to make puppets to get back in so Loop's ban list is "only" 68(? the last time I counted).

It was LR's puppet nation that was in the ACC. She resigned because Pilmour tried to enforce ACC rulings on nations she plays that aren't in the ACC. The members of the ACC, AA, and RRA residing in The South Pacific are there under the condition that they do not spam, recruit, or participate in plans to invade ("defend") other regions. So there's not very many. But the ones that are there are there because of friendships with LR, so if they hear something they report it to intelligence. It's more likely that a potential invader would trip one of our other security measures...

What happened to Francos Spain? My puppet in the UN was going to go there to sign on to him, but he's no longer delegate! When did that happen?

There is something fishy going on:

FS has resigned his UN membership and Poskrebyshev is the new UND.

I still suspect he is one of FS minions, so AFAIK no real change of power has happened.

FS may be switching to a different nation or preparing an invasion into another Feeder region. Be alert.

I think it is likely that there is much about Francos we don’t know. That said, I do not believe he has the forces to take another feeder region. We’ll see though.

Actually, if he intends to do what he has done in the Pacific, the only additional "forces" he needs are one backup UN delegate. Even, if he has access to five different computers (different IPs) and five different e-mail accounts (very easy to do), he doesn't need a second person. And he can end up "owning" the five Pacifics.

He gets in a Feeder region (only ones this... scam? fraud? can work), swaps endorsements till reaching UND, and from there is just "maintenance work", that he can even delegate to some idiot willing to help this scheme. Out of 5000 people, some actively support him, and he just needs one.

How does it sound that?

Not at all Dr Sith (obscure reference?). Why do you accuse him of having multiple connections to the game? Did I miss your point? We have yet to see any proof of cheating.

I can guess your intent, tho I do not fully I get it. He can not endorsement swap into another feeder region. The other delgates are much more diligent. It would likely not go unnoticed.

Not against the rules, but when all five Feeder regions have an acute attack of FSitis, and you are dealing with whining nations from the five most populated regions, I want to look back and say:

"See? I told you so..."

Boy I am evil...

If you want to be evil do more to insure action, such as either insuring he does not keep this region, or such as insuring he does keep The Pacific in his grasps for a while. Doing nothing and looking onto the situation is more apathetic then evil.



There has been absolutely no evidence of Francos' use of a script to control his region. The Mods have been watching very closely, and Salusa has been investigating these allegations and as of yet, no evidence has been found of Francos' using a script.

Well, there are legal scripts as well, right? I don?t think he is autmaticly kicking people out with a script, but I am sure he is using something. Those who appose him are using the same things, as I see.

Yes, there are legal scripts. However, my (admittedly limited) review of the evidence available shows no evidence of of Francos Spain using any illegal scripts whatsoever.

To the people acusing FS and others of using scripts, we do investigate these claims when we have the time, please do not automatically assume that because something isn't going your way that the other people may be cheating.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Sal I wasn't insinuating that it wasn't going my way I hope you didn't think that. I am convinced he's scripting based on the timing of the ejections, he's just smart enough to install a timing modifier to avoid easy detection. If I'm wrong I'm incredibly impressed at the level of work he's put in to keep control and more than worried at the lack of a life.
As far as opposition being fractured yes it is, incredibly so. I'm surprised many of you haven't figured out who to contact. Alliances are incredibly important here. Spend some energy on it. Think hard enough and you'll figure out where they are since there is already a major project in the works.

The part in bold. Perhaps one of the best 2 lines I have read in these forums. This seems to be the principle that the majority of players in this game don’t ever care to grasp, yet it is vital, vital, vital to active game play.

Good post, West.

*wonders what it will take for everyone to realize that if the Mods step in and remove Francos for his mehtods of protecting his region from invasion, then no other region will ever be safe from invasion*

You mixed up a ‘t’ and an ‘h,’ that seems to have been the make up of your ‘methods.’ :twisted:

Sorry, you know me, got to wear the evil horns.

Anyway, I have strong suspicion he is going for Loop's position now.

I'd be impressed if he could do it. Loop is a former member of the ACC, as is Lady Rebels. They have many of the former ACC members sitting in their regions as trip wires. I suspect Loop has booted nearly as many individuals as FS, only those people weren't invaders and didn't try to make puppets to get back in so Loop's ban list is "only" 68(? the last time I counted).

The AAC seems like a scary group. Who else is in the AAC?

Anyway, I have strong suspicion he is going for Loop's position now.

I'd be impressed if he could do it. Loop is a former member of the ACC, as is Lady Rebels. They have many of the former ACC members sitting in their regions as trip wires. I suspect Loop has booted nearly as many individuals as FS, only those people weren't invaders and didn't try to make puppets to get back in so Loop's ban list is "only" 68(? the last time I counted).

??Former??

I also have to admit to finding it a little unfair that it is perfectly legal to ban a fellow nation from a region without any sort of explanation as to why. I have never tricked anyone, I have never lied to anyone and if I ever endorsed any nation, I sent a telegram giving my reasons. I have never done wrong to any nation in the Pacific so I would very much like to know why it is that when I logged onto my nation yesterday morning, I had been banned from The Pacific. Undeserved? Yes. Surely there should be some reasonable explanation via telegram as to why this is so? It hardly seems right that any person should be banned without sound reason.
Perhaps I might understand ifI was in any way a threat to the delegate nation or those aiming for delegacy, but I had 16 edorsements and I was not gathering them,. Almost every one of hose enorsements had been given to me without my knowledge or consent so it was clear I had not been collecting them.
Although I understand it is within the rules of the game to buy endorsements in the way that every delegate in the region appears to, surely it should not be within the rules to eject a nation from a region without a justification for this? It is a game and all games need fair rules to enforce fair play. To put it in laymen's terms, it is like banning someone from playing Tag because they might eventually learn to run faster than you.

Take care,
Vikki (Ananais)

Note that I'm not speaking as a moderator, here.

I'd like to reiterate that anyone looking for a home is welcome to stay in The Realm of Ambrosia. As Founder, I don't put up with any political banning nonsense.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

I personally see this as a griefing strategy. When my founder would defend my regio that way, I would have chasen everyone away, including natives. This is a feeder region, so he can get away with it, without ever coming close to 20% nations booted. Thus I see it as "carte blanche" because he has te work real hard to make the region ever 20% smaller than it is now. Nations be popping up all the time. I rather have a mod as founder in these places (Or someone else who is not that powerhungry), that would have avoided allot of problems, because this thing is far from over yet :cry:


Hear, Hear. The Feeders need founders to balance the UND, as the election method is unreliable. It is the best possible under the circumstances, I understand, but still has its "legal" exploits. And FS and Co. are using them. No one has given them carte blanche, but the mods have washed their hands. This is a matter for the founder, so place one. Even though I sense an accusation of nepotism coming, then.

Addendum: In the (quite unlikely) case you considered me for a Feeder founder post, please, don't. I am really not interested and don't have the time.

Note that I'm not speaking as a moderator, here.

I'd like to reiterate that anyone looking for a home is welcome to stay in The Realm of Ambrosia. As Founder, I don't put up with any political banning nonsense.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

I send in a puppet to spy on you right away :P Something misterious is going on there :?
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

Actually, if he intends to do what he has done in the Pacific, the only additional "forces" he needs are one backup UN delegate. Even, if he has access to five different computers (different IPs) and five different e-mail accounts (very easy to do), he doesn't need a second person. And he can end up "owning" the five Pacifics.

He gets in a Feeder region (only ones this... scam? fraud? can work), swaps endorsements till reaching UND, and from there is just "maintenance work", that he can even delegate to some idiot willing to help this scheme. Out of 5000 people, some actively support him, and he just needs one.

How does it sound that?

Not at all Dr Sith (obscure reference?). Why do you accuse him of having multiple connections to the game? Did I miss your point? We have yet to see any proof of cheating.

I can guess your intent, tho I do not fully I get it. He can not endorsement swap into another feeder region. The other delgates are much more diligent. It would likely not go unnoticed.

No, I am not accusing of doing that, I am saying that he can do it by himself IF he has those resources available to him.

Also, if you say the other delegates are more weary of the endorsement-swap trick, then so much the better.

Not against the rules, but when all five Feeder regions have an acute attack of FSitis, and you are dealing with whining nations from the five most populated regions, I want to look back and say:

"See? I told you so..."

Boy I am evil...

If you want to be evil do more to insure action, such as either insuring he does not keep this region, or such as insuring he does keep The Pacific in his grasps for a while. Doing nothing and looking onto the situation is more apathetic then evil.

I agree, but I am a loner, and very hard to coordinate with other people. Mostly I was joking there, becoming the "I told you so" guy. That is the evil part. :)

As for my name, it is a colony from DarkSith, composed mostly of the more evil and twisted people from the main nation. It is located in another planet, in undefined space region. Sith Unchained, for example, is another colony, this one composed by the most trigger-happy elements, meaning that they use their Sith powers even when they go to the toilet. Basically, they are a bunch of godmodders. :)

I send in a puppet to spy on you right away :P Something misterious is going on there :?

Oh, so The Republic of Vladimir Iljitsj Lenin belongs to you?

What mystery are you talking about?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

I send in a puppet to spy on you right away :P Something misterious is going on there :?

Oh, so The Republic of Vladimir Iljitsj Lenin belongs to you?

What mystery are you talking about?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Sorry, can't answer that. I am still busy spying :P
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

It's amazing how many people are willing to trample on Francos' ability to play by the rules because they dont like what he's done, and then turn around and expect to be able to use the same rules that he operates under.

People, please, look at the big picture. I know you're upset that you've been banned from The Pacific. However, that doesnt mean that we're going to just change the rules so that you can be "happy." No amount of arguing that the current rules are unfair is going to change that. The rules are quite fair - the man in power is the man in power. He's limited, but when you're not the man in power and you feel the effect of that power, it really kinda blows. That's real life, that's reality, that happens every day in some parts of the real world. Why should we not allow that to happen here when you're the one feeling the brunt of it - when if you were in his position, you'd be doing the same thing.

Neut, you are so flexible, we all love you for that :lol: I just took someone of my banlist, just to show what a nice person I am :)
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

This argument has been done to death.

If there are no new arguments...?

/me swings lock around on his finger.

--The Modified States of Cogitation

This argument has been done to death.

If there are no new arguments...?

/me swings lock around on his finger.

--The Modified States of Cogitation

I can make a new argument. The name "Francos Spain" has the same number of syllables and sounds very close to the name "David Blaine".
I put forth the argument that they are one and the same person. This is further evidenced by Francos Spain recent resignation from the UN as the real world "David Blaine" is in a clear plastic box right now and can't reach the internet.

Since David Blane is a magician and most likely a Witch (as proven by his "levitation" capabilties as seen on his special "Street Magic") that in accordance with standard practice we should burn David Blaine publicly. Since David Blane is probably Francos Spain then the problem will be taken care of by using real world laws.

/no sillier than the rest of this thread

iLock

iLock

No you can't.

They can lock a topic, but they can't lock our mouths :P
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

In a pinch the mods can just "suggest" that we stop talking in this thread. We all know that works don't we?

This argument has been done to death.

If there are no new arguments...?

/me swings lock around on his finger.

--The Modified States of Cogitation

Do what you will, but I always like acting under the principle that you have no way of predicting when the smart guy is going to walk in—that someone smarter or with a unique position is going to walk in and say something that has not been mentioned yet. It seems the passion is gone for most of the trouble makers, and what is left is still earnest (of not repetitive) dialogue.

Do what you will, but I don’t see that leaving this topic open to die naturally is a bad thing really. But, what do I know?

Do what you will, but I don’t see that leaving this topic open to die naturally is a bad thing really. But, what do I know?

My apologies; I should have been clearer.

I am, indeed, leaving the topic open in case some smart guy does walk in with a new perspective and enw arguments. I'll only lock the topic if I start seeing the same old arguments repeated over and over again.

Hmmm.... I don't have the time, but maybe someone should summarize all of the old arguments in a single, neat package so that people know what not to repeat.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Summary:

Players: "Francos is cheating!"

Mods: "No he isn't"

Players: "Francos is a dictator!"

Mods: "So."

Players: "Francos booted my puppet!"

Mods: "Keep your puppets out."

Players: "Help us get rid of Francos!"

Mods: "No."

Players: "Waaaaaaaa!"

Mods: "Get over it."

Summary:

<snip>

I was hoping for a more intellectual approach, :P but this will suffice as a stopgap measure. :wink:

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

As a mod who has not got involved in this discussion (even though I've read it all) Also as a mod who doesn't care one way or the other about the Pacific.. who also doesn't role play nor do invasions.. if I may weigh in here a little. This topic has been done to death agreed with Cog there. However, the thread doesn't really warrant being locked. I do believe what it might warrant though is being moved to General or Nation States. This subject has been ruled on and dealt with. I don't see how keeping it in moderation will benefit any one any further.. No one is going to change their minds.. and this has now become a discussion and not an issue for moderation.

However, I will leave that decision up to Neut or Cog given they have been the ones handling this situation. That is my feeling on it though.

Stephanie
Forum Mod

One thing is for sure, I'd like to know why I got banned from the Pacific while I wasn't doing anything that might pi$$ off anyone, except that I didn't endorse Francos Spain, etc...

See Existential Blues summary, complaint two by the Players...

;)

What has happened in The Pacific ?

Francos Spain is no longer the UN Delegate !

I believe that Francos Spain resigned from the UN and left his ally, Poskrebyshev, in charge.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Fair enough !

No real change then.

not particularly...

:roll:

Hmmm.... I don't have the time, but maybe someone should summarize all of the old arguments in a single, neat package so that people know what not to repeat.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Dear goodness, if you ever actually want this let me know. Big undertaking, but I will glad to clip some of the better points and track the progression of the argument. You know I am all about quoting sources and following a dialogue’s progression.

As a mod who has not got involved in this discussion (even though I've read it all) Also as a mod who doesn't care one way or the other about the Pacific.. who also doesn't role play nor do invasions.. if I may weigh in here a little. This topic has been done to death agreed with Cog there. However, the thread doesn't really warrant being locked. I do believe what it might warrant though is being moved to General or Nation States. This subject has been ruled on and dealt with. I don't see how keeping it in moderation will benefit any one any further.. No one is going to change their minds.. and this has now become a discussion and not an issue for moderation.

However, I will leave that decision up to Neut or Cog given they have been the ones handling this situation. That is my feeling on it though.

Stephanie
Forum Mod

No offence, but I have to disagree. I think this is as Mod as Mod can get. It is a discussion of Mod actions on the issue, and I believe if someone smarter does walk in and make the new point of view it still belongs in mod. I agree that some of the same things are being kicked around, but there is a draft of intellect from time to time to be found in this discussion. And personally, though I likely disagree with the masses on this issue, I think there voice deserves not to be lost in General.

No offence, I just don’t completely agree that no one will change their mind. If someone makes a persuasive argument, I may well. I doubt I will 180 on my opinion but that is not to say there is not room for change. I am not quite that close minded, though I may be rather opinionated.

Hmmm.... I don't have the time, but maybe someone should summarize all of the old arguments in a single, neat package so that people know what not to repeat.

Dear goodness, if you ever actually want this let me know. Big undertaking, but I will glad to clip some of the better points and track the progression of the argument. You know I am all about quoting sources and following a dialogue’s progression.

Yes, please do. If any mods feel that anything is missing from your summary, we'll let you know.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Summary:

Players: "Francos is cheating!"

Mods: "No he isn't"

Players: "Francos is a dictator!"

Mods: "So."

Players: "Francos booted my puppet!"

Mods: "Keep your puppets out."

Players: "Help us get rid of Francos!"

Mods: "No."

Players: "Waaaaaaaa!"

Mods: "Get over it."

what's wrong with this one? ;)
well, anyway, good luck reading through all 16 pages..
and the other threads..

Editing has taken place on these. Context is considered for all editing, and accuracy should be accurate. If anything is incorrect, please examine the quoted source and correct me. The following is a history of the argument to this far, with quotes taken when the argument seems to find a new direction.

[N]o Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.



All players should be taken off the banlist of The Pacific. Free speech should return to the region. The evil dictatorship of Francos has to fall. He is making a mockery of the rules in this game!

[b]Btw, it is not the regional happenings I care about. It is the complete lack of being able to deal with a situation, where a delegate can eject all oposition, taking them never off the banlist ever again, while they have not commited any crime, or broke any rule, whatsoever!!



I will note that I have never seen it posted anywhere that regional banishment is a form of in-game punishment. I was banned from a region for refusing to join the UN. Other nations have banned ponential invaders, people they don't like, and and potential threats to power. You don't like it? Tough. This is a free game you play. You take what you get.


Francos Spain still holds close to 200 endorsements, no? This would mean that he is still the popularly elected Delegate of the region. Just because you personally disagree with being banned, or disagree with his election, the bottom line is that he still has approx 200 supporters.

As for the total of approx 300 banned nations, many of those are puppets of banned players that were created either to grief Francos Spain, to get around the ban, or to invade and were caught.



I object to use of the term 'supporters' here. Those endorsements were given by mainly newbies through endorsement swapping. They do not constitute an expression of support for his nation, his policies, or anything else for that matter.

The reality is that feeder regions are very different from other regions in that the rather high percentage of clueless people can completely destroy any political process that might be taking place there.


It's purely the abuse of a game mechanic by one person to annoy the hell out of a few hundred others. I understand that this wasn't covered in the rules, fine. But for this to be willingly and knowingly allowed to continue shows IMHO disrespect for the experienced players and ruins the enjoyment they otherwise might get from playing this game. It's very BAD game design.


Woah...Francos Spain still has 200 endorsements, a good 2 weeks after assuming the position of delegate? I highly doubt that anyone in that region is unaware of what is going on. Especially not his supporters. Simply because you disagree with someone else's viewpoint does not make the other viewpoint any less right than yours is.

Although, I do appreciate the change from the accusation that the endorsements Francos has are all from somewhat older, inactive nations...


As it stands, there is no reasonable way for Francos Spain to legaly lose the delegacy unless he allows that to happen or simply walks away.



Let's see... all you have to do is get 200 endorsements... then invade, and ban him.

You do know what puppets are, right?




Francos is using a script that counts and ejects all Un Nations that aproach a certain number of endorsements. Good luck my friend.


Woah! Hold on a minute here . .. . Scripts can be legal. All we ever said is that they are not banned outright. For example, it would be my opinion that a script written to simply maintain power by booting people with many endorsements would not be legal.

If we determine a script is being used in a fundementally unfair way, we will step in.

When I said that scripts were not necessarily banned, it was due to region hoppers, people who might be using their scripts to notify them when a new telegram came in (or a nation joined their region, or the board gets updated), to automatically post the current resolution on the board for review (I know of a few regions that do this manually). It is not permitted for griefing.



***

[T]here are legal scripts. However, my (admittedly limited) review of the evidence available shows no evidence of of Francos Spain using any illegal scripts whatsoever.

To the people acusing FS and others of using scripts, we do investigate these claims when we have the time, please do not automatically assume that because something isn't going your way that the other people may be cheating.




It was democratic when he was elected. But it stopped being a democracy when Francos Spain banned Thedoc for having more endorsements than him. I am not here whining about fair and just game play, what annoys me however is the incorrect statement about the pacific being a democracy. Call a spade a spade and say it's a dictatorship.



Neut... you want us to stop arguing the point...

Then I ask you to stop referring to Francos as the 'Democratically elected' candidate...


According to Democracy, approx. 24 hours after Francos took the Delegacy seat from my nation I was banned... for having over 30 more endorsements than him...

My endorsements topped 400... his were in the upper 370s...


Technically speaking, I was the democratically elected candidate, and still am. He is a usurper who chose to not allow the people's voice to be heard.

He was duely elected. So was Hitler. The fact that he was duely elected does not make hm a nice guy. It does mean, however, that he did not break the game's rules. Does this take the fun out of things for some people? Sure. But this game was made to simulate real life. Real life isn't always fun, in case you didn't notice. Besides, if enough people wanted him out they could withdraw endorsements, and he would loose power. He could kick competors and it may work for some time, but eventually he would fall.


My only question is that if your decision is to take no action, why did you reinstate Francos Spain along with all of his endorsements?




It seems rather pointless to keep complaining to the moderators about this, when you can (re)take the delegate position by yourselves, script or no script. You're just not thinking about this in the right way. The Most Glorious Hack has already provided some hints which you apparently haven't paid enough attention to, and knowing that any nation with a certain number of endorsements will be ejected should be enough.


I should have brought this up earlier, but nevertheless I believe that some of the basic reasoning behind this ruling has flaws. Namely, the statement that Francos is not an invader because he acquired his position through endorsement-trading.

The fact is, over the past four months or so, region-crashers have declined in numbers. Not in audacity or intelligence, but merely numbers. What did they do about it? For the most part we're too proud to have mergers between groups. Recruiting has been stepped up across the board by most organizations, but that isn't filling the gap. So, as a result, endorsement-trading among invaders has risen in frequency to fill these gaps. Some examples (I may have some details off):

Pacific Army v. Empire of Power (August)

A PA member entered the Empire of Power home region and sent every UN member (except Mattatonn, of course) a request to trade endorsements, as well as his (her?) own endorsement. By the following day, the PA member had become Delegate, and thanked all those who had endorsed them, and left, satisfied at having embarassed the EOP.

ACC v. RRA (June)

Shortly after the ejection of Gres, Delegate of the Rejected Realsm, from the UN, the nation of MrNonchalant, a member of the Atlantic invader group, entered the Rejected Realms, spamming the regional happenings with a puppet to hide his arrival, and sent every Rejected Realms UN member endorsement-exchange telegrams and his endorsement. With no clear leadership in the region, he became Delegate. Only about a half-dozen of his endorsers were members of the Atlantic invader group. He eventually left (As I can attest, being trapped in the Rejected Realms for all eternity can get to you)

Delphina v. InfernoIce

After the deletion of Francos Spain, the nation of Delphina ran for the Delegacy of the Pacific. She sent every UN member endorsement-trading messages and her endorsement, and acquired about 70 before the update. About a dozen of these were members of the South Pacific's regional government.

Yucca v. 000 (I'm not sure exactly when this happened)

The nation of Yucca entered the region of 000, and sent endorsement-exchange messages and endorsements to all members of the region. Once he became Delegate, he ejected and banned the previous Delegate. Eventually Arabian Dark (Also known as Louldamin or Evans) displaced him, with help from New Meritocracy forces.


All had someone enter the region and immediately begin sending out endorsement-trading messages, becoming Delegate while still new ot the region. All had hidden agendas and an intent to take over the region. (Well, the PA v. EOP one was more of a raid). All had mere skeleton crews of actual members of their organization, or none at all. Perhaps I should use the old imagery of your region as a house: A burglar is still a burglar and he's still trying to take your stuff, regardless of whether he breaks your door's hinges off with a sledgehammer or gives your 5-year-old kid candy if they'll open the door for him at 11:30 PM.

This strategy of actual troop movements taking second fiddle to exploiting the masses of people who want any endorsement is, in fact, the only path that any sane modern region-crasher can take. It would be madness to simply charge into a Pacific or any large region at all with the small sizes of invader groups today, and indeed nobody's been suicidal enough to try for three months. The unthinking acquisition of endorsements through endorsement-exchange is the wave of the future for invader groups or individual invaders, and I feel that it's time that the rules reflected this fact.



So when Francos Spain is desposed in a sneaky, underhanded way and permanently banned, along with all of his supporters and pupperts, you mods won't do jack about it being invaders who have deposed him? After all, it's just a political coup....



So long as you don't start booting a boatload of people. And technically, Francos can't be left on the ban list- however, once another delegate has control, the ban list could be cleared, bringing in more support against Francos. His endorsements have plummeted, and if Thedoc's supporters are all back in and endorsing him, Francos likely wouldn't have a chance of taking the delegacy back. (Plus, there are perfectly legal, if underhanded, ways to keep somebody from collecting endorsements without banning them. Tactics and timing...)

In addition, it is possible to organize a counterattack. I've had to answer another player's questions because they want to be 100% clear on what they can and can't do. I've been asked not to share any more information, but from what I've been told, it's virtually foolproof.


He was duely elected. So was Hitler. The fact that he was duely elected does not make hm a nice guy.


Which is exactly my point.

Man I hate when I agree with Neut :twisted: . But really, both Neut and Cspella are correct on this. You guys voted him into power. He was democratcly elected. What you didn't know what that elections were going to stop as soon as he was UN DEL. So really, you voted in a dictator. Unfortunelly that means that the only way to go in and enforce democracy is to use force.


I've made a proposal to the UN that I think should be a way around an invasion. The resolution calls for ousting Francos Spain as delegate. I don't believe this is a violation of UN protocol, as all that will be done from a game standpoint is to either remove him from the UN or remove his endorsements.

Regardless, check it out and tell me what you think


This is in violation of UN protocol.


I hear the same thing from both Mods and game players.

We the game players have tried to oust Franco..but because of the scripting or whatever tool he uses to manage the region this has made ousting him impossable.

How to correct this...simple remove the Ban function on feeder regions. The nation in charge can eject but can not ban.


and would allow all sorts of grief in theose regions...

what would you do with abusive people?

i dont' think that's the way.



I bet the Pacific Army would fight. I know of alot of regions that would. [T]he region "The Pacific Army"

I know of at least 10 other regions that would be willing to help

Are there any further questions regarding the official announcement?

I'm thinking about asking that further discussion of legal invasions be conducted in a separate topic. I don't want to lock this topic for containing off-topic discussion.




Okay, here it is, I think:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72448

You are free to start a new one, if this one isn't it.




It's amazing to myself how so many nations can gripe that Francos Spain is "untouchable" because he has 200 enodorsements and the Mods wont do anything to make an invasion easier for the invaders.

Let me explain something, FS is playing by the same rules that everyone is else being held to. Simply because he is not the delegate you would choose for the region does not mean he is not the popular delegate. Arguing that because he's ejecting invaders before they get a chance to participate in a democratic election will only serve to hinder every other nation that ever attempts to defend a region.


You might now like FS as delegate of the region, that does not require that the Mods change the rules so that you can remove him. That kind of action would be perverted into a major game flaw.

I'ts somewhat interesting to see so many nations clamoring to have FS removed from power for defending his position in the same manner many of the bitching players use to defend their postion when being invaded, or dealing with hostile takeovers...




Please do not take this the wrong way. But if Francos is at all smart, and he seems to be smart enough at least—then this is a horrible idea. He will put pawns into your group with advertising like this, and when you plan an attack he will know ahead of time, and you will be shocked he knew of your plans. You need to recruit a bit more under the cover, with known adversaries of him.



It really is amazing how many nations Francos Spain has banned.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/page=region_control/region=The_Pacific


The point YOU all seem to forget is the fact is that his first UND action was to ban from the region any NATIVE that could pose a threat to his tyranical rule. <snip>

And that is the ONLY point you mods haven't addressed. Stop talking nonsense about defenders, invaders and so-and-so. Even the number of banned nations is irrellevant to the issue. It is the fact of his first action as UND that condemns him.

This has been addressed: A native Delegate may ban native nations. Francos Spain's actions are legal.





I understand your frustration, but surely you are aware of dictatorships. They are not fair, in principle they are the opposite. In a game about poltics, people should be able to be dictators. Fair, no? But, polticlly possible, yes. I don’t see how he is cheating, tho I understand your frustration, I honestly do.

He is a dictator. Yes, that is the part he plays. And like most (if not all) dictators they are difficult to overthrow. It is very possible to do so though.



There are many other regions to live in, personally, I have never stayed in a feeder region longer than necessary. Look around, you find one more personal, related to your interests, where you won't be kicked. Actually, I've been living happily in the Rejected Realms (by my choice) for quite a while now.





Hmmm.... I don't have the time, but maybe someone should summarize all of the old arguments in a single, neat package so that people know what not to repeat.





Summary:

Players: "Francos is cheating!"

Mods: "No he isn't"

Players: "Francos is a dictator!"

Mods: "So."

Players: "Francos booted my puppet!"

Mods: "Keep your puppets out."

Players: "Help us get rid of Francos!"

Mods: "No."

Players: "Waaaaaaaa!"

Mods: "Get over it."



I was hoping for a more intellectual approach, :P but this will suffice as a stopgap measure.



What has happened in The Pacific ?

Francos Spain is no longer the UN Delegate !


I believe that Francos Spain resigned from the UN and left his ally, Poskrebyshev, in charge.



Alright. I could actually map the argument and point out the divergent arguments and supporters of each perceptive. But, I won’t. Instead I have posted what I find to be each time a unique argument or lump of an argument has been presented. There are a lot of repeated ideas in these threads, and all players are encouraged to read all 16 pages for themselves, especially if you do not find this summary to be satisfactory.

~Ack


***This has been added as an editing notation thanks to a telegram pointing out the relevancy of the post in question. The addition in question is the second post by SalusaSecondus.

OK Ack, now you get my vote for "Most Long Winded".

Nice work though.

Wuf. That's a bucket-and-a-half of work there Ackbar. It seems to be a pretty reasonable summary.

Also seems like its largely been circular. While tongue-in-cheek, Existential Blues's summary is shockingly accurate.

I'm busy presenting it to [violet]. The mods have resorted to ignoring my arguments, repeating the same one-liners over and over again without even respecting the case, and flaming to shut me up about this case. They completely ignore the details of my aguments and keep on refering to the puppets that are trolling without even bothering to think of it. I see the mods as a bunch of dictators who no longer have the people at heart.

Right now I'm collecting evidence of what's happening at the moment. I try not make it a long e-mail, so [violet] will actually have time to read it, and not ignore it, because it would be to much work to read.

I kindly ask all players who read this to send me links of threads that can help our case.
I'm revering to the fact that mods do everything to shut us up and demoralizing us about The Pacific, even flaming. I'm not gonna ask about a rule change. I just want [violet] check on the mods 's behaviour in this case.

Corinthe.

I'm busy presenting it to [violet]. The mods have resorted to ignoring my arguments, repeating the same one-liners over and over again without even respecting the case, and flaming to shut me up about this case. They completely ignore the details of my aguments and keep on refering to the puppets that are trolling without even bothering to think of it. I see the mods as a bunch of dictators who no longer have the people at heart.

Right now I'm collecting evidence of what's happening at the moment. I try not make it a long e-mail, so [violet] will actually have time to read it, and not ignore it, because it would be to much work to read.

I kindly ask all players who read this to send me links of threads that can help our case.

Corinthe.

Well, I can offer you a quote. From this very thread...

]Boy, those Pacific regions are lightning rods for hardball politics.

Nations appealing for moderator intervention need to understand that the game allows players to act unfairly. Francos Spain, like many before, has decided to be ruthless in the quest for power and bump off any potential threats. This is appalling and undemocratic behavior, and personally I hope residents in the Pacific yank their endorsements. But they are not compelled to do so. Delegates are elected by region residents, not by mods. If the Pacific leaves Francos Spain in power, that is their choice.

In many cases before this one, a Delegate's tyranny has come back to bite him, eventually leading to his unseating. I encourage nations offended by Francos Spain's acts to try the same. This is a job for Pacific residents, not the mods.

I forgot to add this: "I'm revering to the fact that mods do everything to shut us up and demoralizing us about The Pacific, even flaming. I'm not gonna ask about a rule change. I just want [violet] check on the mods 's behaviour in this case."
to my last message. It's not longer The Pacific alone.

I am very chaotic Hack, so this is very hard to do for me. I just want to present the mods's behaviour and not ask [violet] to help me tople the regime in The Pacific.

Corinthe.

There are now 547 nations on the pacific ban list. Yes, some of these are puppets. Even if half of them are puppets, which I doubt, that's a *huge* number.

The current delegate has less than 100 endorsements, and he bans anyone who has even as few as 5 endorsements, unless he's one of "the senate". The delegates in the other feeder regions have over 400 endorsements. Yet still the mods trot out this nonsense about "a duely elected delegate".

All he has to do is watch what is happening just before update time. If he sees a whole lot of new people joining the pacific shortly before update time, it's a simple matter to ban them.

Admit it, mods, it's *impossible* to take the delegacy from someone who uses such unfair tactics. But you just let it slide. Franco and his lackeys have ruined the game for hundreds of people, including me. You've made a bad call.

<snip>

I can't check IPs, but I wouldn't be surprised if Neut told me that far more than half were puppets. Even if those were all unique nations, though, it wouldn't make a bloody difference.

Politics of this kind are perfectly legal in NationStates.

It is possible to take the Delegacy; you just need to be coordinated properly. As the mods have to remain neutral in invasions, I'm not telling you anymore, you have to figure it out on your own. Go ask an experienced invader how ot do this. Leave us mods out of it.

Remember that Delegates of non-feeder regions without Founders have to defend themselves from invaders in exactly the same way. Defense tactics must be legal for both cases or illegal for both cases. It's been decided that it will be legal for both cases.

Indeed, the feeder regions can't be passworded because ugly bugs start rearing their ugly heads when new nations try to enter The Pacific, hit a password, and are left regionless. So, Delegates of feeder regions have fewer defenses than non-feeder regions.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

Pacific Political Update:

Evilistocia has been EJECTED from the UN.
Poskrebyshev is the current delegate with 100 endorsements (102 verified).
InfernoIce has 90 endorsements.
Francos Spain has rejoined the UN and now has 58 endorsements.

So.

There are now 547 nations on the pacific ban list. Yes, some of these are puppets. Even if half of them are puppets, which I doubt, that's a *huge* number.

The current delegate has less than 100 endorsements, and he bans anyone who has even as few as 5 endorsements, unless he's one of "the senate". The delegates in the other feeder regions have over 400 endorsements. Yet still the mods trot out this nonsense about "a duely elected delegate".

All he has to do is watch what is happening just before update time. If he sees a whole lot of new people joining the pacific shortly before update time, it's a simple matter to ban them.

Admit it, mods, it's *impossible* to take the delegacy from someone who uses such unfair tactics. But you just let it slide. Franco and his lackeys have ruined the game for hundreds of people, including me. You've made a bad call.


Thinking you all have difficulties thinking outside the box. Perhaps it would help if your supporters weren't such security risks spouting off about every new plan in the works. If you want to know what the Pacific army is up to you only need to browse around Moderation for 5 min.

I can't wait till this thread gets to 65 pages. I have dibs on the lock.. LOL

Stephanie
Forum Mod

I can't wait till this thread gets to 65 pages. I have dibs on the lock.. LOL

Stephanie
Forum Mod

This isn't the General Forum...:twisted:

I can't wait till this thread gets to 65 pages. I have dibs on the lock.. LOL

Stephanie
Forum Mod

This isn't the General Forum...:twisted:

Hehe, could we make an exception? Just this once? LOL

Am I the only one getting tired of people debating the Pacifics? I mean the ruling has been ruled on.. no one is going to change their mind. Oh well... I guess I can just ignore it like I've been doing all along.. heh 8)

Stephanie
Forum Mod

I say, I've got a marvelous idea:
What if the delegates of all 5 Feeder regions start ejecting huge numbers of players? Wouldn't that be a jolly good idea???

What would the mods do? Let 5 people ruin the fun of hundreds of other players? No! This is a lack in the rules, and therefore it should be fixed.

I say, I've got a marvelous idea:
What if the delegates of all 5 Feeder regions start ejecting huge numbers of players? Wouldn't that be a jolly good idea???

What would the mods do? Let 5 people ruin the fun of hundreds of other players? No! This is a lack in the rules, and therefore it should be fixed.

A simple "bump" would have done the trick too :twisted:
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

I have an idea. Lets all make more puppets and keep restating the same old arguements over and over. That might work.

I have an idea. Lets all make more puppets and keep restating the same old arguements over and over. That might work.

Lol, you are funny. It only makes a lock inevitable.
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

I have an idea. Lets all make more puppets and keep restating the same old arguements over and over. That might work.

Lol, you are funny. It only makes a lock inevitable.
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

I would assume he is using irony.

Seriousily though, I hope Francines Spain is not someone's puppet. And if they are, I hope they discontinue attempting to make the one side larger then it may actually be.

buh? :shock: don't get it.... aren't we the ones making the side larger, by making all those puppets?

buh? :shock: don't get it.... aren't we the ones making the side larger, by making all those puppets?

Yes we are. As soon as we stop talking about this issue, we can go back and pick up our lives again. Let this thread die, since it serves no purpose. We all have our own regios to attend of. The Pacific is just a minor player in the UN, so why bother?!
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

This is beyond a joke.

Everyone is getting banned from The Pacific, especially ones that have been around for quite some time, and have remained quiet.

I have kept quiet during the ongoing struggles in The Pacific. I have been approached several times to endorse Francos Spain, but have largely ignored the approaches. This time, I get spammed, yet again, from Francos, asking me to endorse him as UN delegate...this time I send him a reply saying that I am not endorsing anyone after everything that has gone on in The Pacific.

So what happens? A couple of days later, I find out that I myself have been banned from The Pacific. At no time in history has there been a period where there have been no neutrals in war...so how is it that in what has essentially become a war in the Pacific, being neutral is a crime?

This is beyond a joke.

Everyone is getting banned from The Pacific, especially ones that have been around for quite some time, and have remained quiet.

I have kept quiet during the ongoing struggles in The Pacific. I have been approached several times to endorse Francos Spain, but have largely ignored the approaches. This time, I get spammed, yet again, from Francos, asking me to endorse him as UN delegate...this time I send him a reply saying that I am not endorsing anyone after everything that has gone on in The Pacific.

So what happens? A couple of days later, I find out that I myself have been banned from The Pacific. At no time in history has there been a period where there have been no neutrals in war...so how is it that in what has essentially become a war in the Pacific, being neutral is a crime?

A Dictator does as a Dictator does. What exactly did you expect after your refusal to endorse him. A "Thank you" note? :)
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

Francos Spain's actions are legal within NationStates rules. If you want him removed from power, you'll have to do something about it yourself (like a legal invasion).

No moderator action is being taken.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

I like this response from TG for the same question:


Control freakery. The Pacific is like that, someone doesn't like the look of you, you get booted. Even Mods aren't safe.


ultimately further discussion will only hurt the cause.

This is beyond a joke.

Everyone is getting banned from The Pacific, especially ones that have been around for quite some time, and have remained quiet.

I have kept quiet during the ongoing struggles in The Pacific. I have been approached several times to endorse Francos Spain, but have largely ignored the approaches. This time, I get spammed, yet again, from Francos, asking me to endorse him as UN delegate...this time I send him a reply saying that I am not endorsing anyone after everything that has gone on in The Pacific.

So what happens? A couple of days later, I find out that I myself have been banned from The Pacific. At no time in history has there been a period where there have been no neutrals in war...so how is it that in what has essentially become a war in the Pacific, being neutral is a crime?

I could be wrong. But this wreaks of a puppet to bump the issue, which to me would be like spam. Might just be me though.

Nope...

Intersting. Then maybe will actually say something new AND interesting about this topic. It has been repetitive out the wazoo. Somehow I doubt there s much new on the subject though, at least for discussion.


I will say this. If you want to do something about the dictator in this thread, simply contact people in the thread you think agree with you who would be willing to take action.

Or get yourself a donut and move on with your life. Endorsing me would be fine too :lol:
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Central Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_central_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

Having just been expelled from the Pacific myself [for having too many endorsements], I sought out this thread to see what was being done regarding this matter.

Now having found out, I am very disappointed. While the griefing may seem minor, it is very annoying, it is also making the game a lot less fun. I don't play a game to have some jerk lord things over me, I play to have fun.

When I heard that a second Nationstates game, a pay-for game with more features, was coming out, I thought "cool". Nationstates, only with more depth and more interest, it would be a great game. Pay for? I thought, maybe that's something worth paying for.

Now, having seen how griefers are handled makes me realise that I wouldn't spend my money on something so promising that will likely end up equally as abused. I sincerely hope that when and if you do open a paying service that you take more care in policing the behaviour of a few bad eggs that are ruining it for the majority of players.

The worst part was the Kharkov didn't seek the delegacy or the endorsements. He was minding his own business until he was victimized by the endorsement swappers who had given him endorsements hoping that he would endorse them back during Francos Spain's "Vacation."

Here's the list of native nations expelled which were not trying to gain the delegacy, were NOT "friends" of the nations aspiring to delegacy (Tobieski, Corinthe, Juskalherria, Zhadnov, Jennivier, Expedition, the Masked Muppet, Bcslayers. Luna Amore, Chibi chibi). Their offense was that they returned the endorsements of those that had endorsed them.

1824
Abnegatia
Attila el Hun
Boombule
Cobardia
Common Man
Complicity
Deluwiel
Denspark
Dland
Ebonwulf
Ephyon
EvilAngels
Familia
Fenway United
Fromage de Chevre
Halif
Hannahcome
Il Bugo
Irisian
Ikornstopia
Japanaric
Jeddo
Jersahlin
Jubystan
Kerplestan
Kharkov
Khedive
Killdeathmurder
Kizan
Magipolis
Magyx
Mao Worshipers
Marck
McDowell County
MTJS
My 3 Sons
Mylanda
Natetor the Destructor
New Pengina
Ormrod
Owikanachie
Ozzipom land
Pam_soccer
Pitrac
Plamesta
Protestant Lanarkshire
Revilotaire
Rexia
Rophenia
Scorching Riffs
SF Fans
The Fairstar Fairy
The High V
The Pink Sunglasses
Wintario
Wolf Allies
Yugorsk

I think that there is something being forgotten here. The role of the mods is to enforce the existing rules, but also to create new ones to address new concerns, and new forms of abuse. On the whole, if someone is using some new method to raise havoc, spread strife, and generally make hordes of people miserable at their own personal gain, the solution is not to throw our collective hands in the air and say "well, it's not illegal." If someone is using a new method of harassing other players, that new method should be banned.

That said, it is clear that due to the huge numbers involved, feeder regions have a huge potential for destruction. A Pacific-type region delegate can essentially clear-cut, burn, and pave every meaningful part of his or her region long before reaching the 40% ratio. Selective banning of anyone who sticks their head out will have (and has had, in the Pacific) the effect of effectively killing the region- the same effect as a total griefing, except the occupants' pain is dragged out over a long period of time instead of one fell swoop. The rules on griefing should be written so as to close this legal loophole.

Leave general Franco alone, you rra dummie.

Perhpas everyone should just treat the Pacific like the US has treated Cuba for the last 30+ years.

Cuba was communist thats the difference.

well the RL Franco was a Socialist, so it dont really matter, if ya dont want any involvement in the Pacific, dont go through there, dont bother Franco, just pretend he dont exist,

The worst part was the Kharkov didn't seek the delegacy or the endorsements. He was minding his own business until he was victimized by the endorsement swappers who had given him endorsements hoping that he would endorse them back during Francos Spain's "Vacation." There were more than a dozen such nations who suffered the same fate after the dust from Francos last "neutron bomb" settled out. I'll edit this post later and list them when I have time.

Kharkov was not ejected for his endorsement number. Please refer to the High Court board on the Pacific forum (http://newpacificorder.proboards19.com/index.cgi) for information on yesterday's ejections.

(Note: You must be logged in on the forum to be able to view the Senate and Court boards)

Cuba was communist thats the difference.
So's francos' regieme. hard line stalinists. look at the name of poskrebyshev. look at all the glorious leader stuff. it's hardline communism. (sorry it's late here and i'm not feeling up to really posting well. i'll edit this later with more and better examples)
http://english.daralhayat.com/culture/08-2003/Article-20030822-2b196156-c0a8-01ed-003d-9de3a67fd53f/story.html

So causing havok should now be against the rules. Sorry, just seems a bit vague to me to agree with that.

The worst part was the Kharkov didn't seek the delegacy or the endorsements. He was minding his own business until he was victimized by the endorsement swappers who had given him endorsements hoping that he would endorse them back during Francos Spain's "Vacation." There were more than a dozen such nations who suffered the same fate after the dust from Francos last "neutron bomb" settled out. I'll edit this post later and list them when I have time.

Kharkov was not ejected for his endorsement number. Please refer to the High Court board on the Pacific forum (http://newpacificorder.proboards19.com/index.cgi) for information on yesterday's ejections.

(Note: You must be logged in on the forum to be able to view the Senate and Court boards)

yeah, well, i'm not signing up for your forum, just to give you the chance to give me the same title you gave bleasdale when she did that..

The rules on griefing should be written so as to close this legal loophole.

Well, that's one option to handle it. It could get kinda mod-intensive though, and repeated calls by people asking: "Is THIS illegal?", and later when a little thing happens "Ok, is it illegal NOW?", etc... As people would search for where the exact boundary lies, more 'loopholes' would be found, etc...

I still prefer my simple and thorough solution: turn off the eject option in the five pacifics, as it is done in the RR. Note how Jennivier took over the RR recently and there was no griefing or calls for mod intervention on that at all (that I know of). Players handled the fight amongst themselves, which IMHO should be the prefered way of playing the game.

Ballotonia

Players handled the fight amongst themselves, which IMHO should be the prefered way of playing the game.


Bingo.

Bingo.

Man, I love that game, but you are confused. This game is called NationStates :wink:


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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Free Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_free_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

So, because all kinds of players are making new puppet nations for Francos to eject, and keeping him wary of all UN members not endorsing his nation, we Mods need to create a new rule? Sounds more like the players ejected from The Pacific are doing this to themselves and their "friends." As I recall, this whole issue did not begin with anything more than an ejection of those formerly in power and their puppets. It then grew when everyone else started bitching and creating new puppets in attempts to grief Francos.

While it's unfortunate that your nations were ejected from the region, that is part of the game and it WILL NOT CHANGE simply because a very small number of players want it to. There are literally thousands of other regions in which to reside, along with the ability to create one's own.

Kharkov was not ejected for his endorsement number. Please refer to the High Court board on the Pacific forum for information on yesterday's ejections.

(Note: You must be logged in on the forum to be able to view the Senate and Court boards)
As your board tracks IP addresses it would hardly be in anyone's best interest to log on to the board's forums. If you want us to know the arcana of your region's legal system, please either post relevant portions here or open the High Court Board to guest viewing.

Bingo.

Man, I love that game, but you are confused. This game is called NationStates :wink:


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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Free Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_free_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

Cracked me up. :D

Please, Franco's Spain, inform me as to what caused this expulsion. Was I clicking on the issues button in the wrong way? Checking my nation at the wrong time of day? Not deleting telegrams when I should?

Neutered Sputniks,

You'll note from the age of my nation that it is not a puppet, and that all I was doing was minding my own business. In the interests of maintaining a fun atmosphere for the players, it would be best if the moderators did attempt to solve this problem.

But you have decided not to. That is your prerogative, and I must assume that the creator of this game endorses it. As a result, I will most certainly not be part of the paying crowd when Nationstates 2 comes out, and I will be sure to inform my friends that griefing is considered acceptable behaviour.

When Francos ejects people he gets very exited, thus sometimes he ejects too many. It was probably just a mistake, but since there are no rules about how long one may stay on the banlist, or who you may eject, you better move on. There's a beautiful world out there, just waiting to be discovered 8) I live in a nice community, and I'm sure that there are many more like mine.

Btw, there is no point to post in this thread. You probably get just a sarcastic remark from the Neut anyway.
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CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Free Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_free_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

Come live in the South Pacific, we are a fun loving region of free-thinkers, rabble rousers, and conservatives. all are welcome, pretty much. no abusers please.

okay that's the end of my pitch. I will maintain that further discussion on this topic will only harm the anti-francos cause.

Kharkov, you must understand, it's not considered griefing for a player to rule with an iron fist. It's a shame that your nation has been ejected from the region, however, I ask you to put yourself in Francos' shoes. He's constantly having to deal with the threat of more nations attempting to usurp his position - simply because they think he's a bad guy.

If you truly believe the best way to manage this situation is to pout, and/or take your ball and go home because you were on the shisty end of the stick, so be it. Do not blame Max, Admin, nor the Mods for this. These are the rules, and if you choose to play, you choose to accept that such things may happen.

I'd prefer seeing those opposed to Francos working together to invade his region and remove him from power. So far, I've seen one attempt that was organized - and it was all multies.

Francos still has 147 endorsements, thus, there are still 147 UN nations that believe Francos is not all that horrible a delegate. Were more people to accept Corinthe's new outlook on the situation, perhaps there would be fewer ejections/more peace in the region.

you know the most ironic thing is that while i was reading your note, neut, sympathy for the devil came on...

Yeah...when I was typing it, "We Gotta Get Outta This Place" came on ;)

Blame? Well, who made the rules and who enforces them? Who can change said rules?

This is hardly pouting, it's a genuine complaint. I am not saying that I should "take my ball and go home", I am saying that if this is the way that things are run, then I don't agree, I think it doesn't make the game fun, and I won't let friends run into situations like this without having knowledge aforehand.

But really, you've made your position clear, and I've made mine. I will not resort to insults or slurs, or attempts at inflammatory comments, but I must say that I disagree strongly with your position. I also think that your handling of the situation has been extremely poor, but as this is a free game, there is little to do about that, save not participate in the paying version.

That is all. But seriously, drop the insults, I'm not trying to whine, I'm just trying to play a game and have fun with it.

What insults? I was simply being quite curt. I've already (along with many other Moderators) attempted to explain the reasoning behind our decision.

When you choose to play, say, baseball, you open yourself up to being tagged out, no? So when you get tagged out, do you cry foul because you arent having fun since you didnt make it all the way around the bases? You began playing with an understanding of the rules, and thus the umpires make sure that the rules are adhered to - whether one side likes it or not.

Simply because a rule is unfavorable to yourself does not make it a bad rule, just one that you dont like. No one says you have to like the rules, nor even that you have to play. In choosing to play, you choose to abide by the rules that have been set forth - all of them, whether you like it or not. If you think poorly of the Mods, Admin, and/or Max for allowing the NationStates world to be not perfectly tranquil, then you are very poorly disillusioned about the real world. Making rules to keep everyone tranquil and such would essentially mean there's no way you could be tagged out by the opposing team (see the baseball analogy).

I disagree, I think what was happening was griefing. There's no use making analogies that do not fit- I have no problem losing graciously in a game that's fun, and that is not being abused by a player. I can cite examples, but they don't really matter.

With respect to losing- I was fortunate enough to play with seriously good Soul Caliber players [the DC one], and I got to lose a whole lot. I say fortunate, because I learned from what was happening. It was fun, even though I was getting my butt kicked constantly.

We disagree. I hope that you will someday agree with what I'm trying to say, as it will help the development of this game. If it weren't a good game, or a promising game, would I have persisted with it for so long? But incidents like this do not help me see that. My hope was that by voicing my concerns, they might be addressed, and the game could be improved, rather than allowed to be destroyed. Truthfully, your response to me was unhelpful, as well. I was insulted by it, incensed in a way. Perhaps I shouldn't be, as it's just a petty matter, but there you have it.

Basically, I think that if I go into a game with the express purpose of just having fun, and not having people push me around, that should be an option. It's like in certain EQ servers where you have to agree to PVP.

But that's all I have to say, Except this- your last "in real life" line was highly insulting. There's really nothing else to say, our positions have been stated and further discussion won't likely change anything, save introduce the potential for destructive, rather than constructive engagement.

The problem with the baseball analogy is that it doesn't apply to the situation at hand. The Pacific is a feeder region; The environment there is the first thing that players encounter, for 20% of the players at least. The environment in a feeder leaves an impression on the players who start there about what the rest of the game is like. I've seen plenty of people in the Pacific explaining the situation by assuming that all delegates and all regions are just like Francos, when the truth is that he is the most extreme case in existence.

One cannot expect life to be fair, but one can expect a reasonably tranquil childhood.

Nations are more than free to create their own regions.

Frustrating part of this debate for me is one hand the rules say this so this side *points* is right and justified. From a democratic influenced moral perspective and thinking of the n00bs being dropped in there this side *points* is right. We may not like it but we have to respect the rules or else the game doesn't stand very well once you get to bending them around. Gets pretty shaky. Thing is there's rules to maintain power, and there's rules to how you can seize it. There's a counter balance here if enough people take the patience and time to stuff the egos in the back pocket and work together. Just glad I'm not a mod having to put up with this all the time.

In choosing to play, you choose to abide by the rules that have been set forth - all of them, whether you like it or not.

A modification to the game is being proposed. Your response seems to be in the line of pointing out that the game currently is not that way. While this is an entirely correct statement, it in no way addresses the game change being suggested nor is it helpful to the player making the suggestion. Actually, the same reasoning could be used to simply disregard any and all suggestions made by players, including the ones that have been addopted.

So let's turn this thing around: players have been suggestion game modifications. [violet] has not only allowed this, but has also adopted quite a number of these proposals. This game has been developing all the time since it came on-line. New things have been added, changed, or removed, based on the insight of those operating the game ([violet] and Max). If you have a problem with this, you are free to play a different game instead, or utilize your Mod status to directly lobby [violet] and Max to never change anything in the game again. Right now the impression you're giving me, and have been giving me from the very start of this thread, is that the suggestions made are not even being looked at merely because they're different than what's already there.

For the record, to hopefully avoid misunderstandings:

- I've made the suggestion posed by me well before anyone ever heard of Francos Spain (it was ignored then as well).

- I fully understand that given the current ruleset, the Mod decision is the way it is.

- I do *NOT* understand why in their decision the Mods have competely ignored there even being a problem in feeder regions in general. From that perspective, Francos is merely a symptom of an underlying game design flaw: feeder regions, as welcoming region in the game, are highly prone to be dictatorships. Surely mods also think outside the rigid structure of the rules and ponder the overall game design as I and some other players in this thread have done?

Ballotonia

Yes, and we discussed the game change issue. The result was the first post in this thread. Reread the first post, and you'll find that we addressed those wishing for the rules. to change.

On top of that, you quoted one line. What about the many other times I've stated that simply because one is not favored by a rule does not make that rule unfair or wrong, merely unfavorable? Or the times I've stated that the rules will not be changed because some players feel slighted that the rules didnt favor them?


Does anyone else here see the parallel between this discussion and John Nike...or is it just me?

Everything that has been suggested in this thread has been discussed by the mods, and admin in great depth. Our conclusion was that nothing should be changed. We stand by that decision.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

It's at times like these that you have to re-read the first couple of pages again to remind yourself what the decision was. :lol:

Yes, and we discussed the game change issue. The result was the first post in this thread. Reread the first post, and you'll find that we addressed those wishing for the rules. to change.

On top of that, you quoted one line. What about the many other times I've stated that simply because one is not favored by a rule does not make that rule unfair or wrong, merely unfavorable? Or the times I've stated that the rules will not be changed because some players feel slighted that the rules didnt favor them?

The decision was with regard to moderator intervention. It (IMHO correctly) states that the rules were not broken, and hence there is no grounds for moderator intervention. Both your examples are arguments in defense of not intervening as a moderator. Neither has anything to do with game design, and everything with rule enforcement.

Everything that has been suggested in this thread has been discussed by the mods, and admin in great depth. Our conclusion was that nothing should be changed. We stand by that decision.

Thank you. Could you please share the argumentation for deciding against my suggested game change?

Ballotonia

tags added to hopefully finally get my point understood...

Ballotonia

After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no [b]Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

I don't understand why mods don't see the difference between the game design (mechanic) and the game rules. It is not a rule, this is a technical gap in the game design, thus it should be repaired.


Game mechanic:
delegate options,...

Game rules:
Thou shalt not spam
Thou shalt not have any UN-multy
Thou shalt not grief any region
...

I think the only way to solve this is to ask [violet] directly...

Can one of the moderators try and get her/him/it to comment on this thread/look at some of the points put forth?

For a start,
...it'd make the moderators happy because they'd have something off their backs and onto someone who can definately rule one way or the other and everyone would know that decision is final.
...it'd make Ballotonia and others involved happy because their points are being reviewed by one of the powers that be.

We have discussed this with [violet] directly, and at some length. They agreed fully with this ruling.

What about the many other times I've stated that simply because one is not favored by a rule does not make that rule unfair or wrong, merely unfavorable? Or the times I've stated that the rules will not be changed because some players feel slighted that the rules didnt favor them?


Does anyone else here see the parallel between this discussion and John Nike...or is it just me?

who the heck is john nike?

who the heck is john nike?
Pssst... character in Jennifer Government... ya know, the book we're supposed to buy 'cause we like this site.

Hey. Any figures on how many Maxx has sold 'cause of us?

Oh Yeah. On topic. The rule's not gonna change. I figured that out page 2.

How about a lock and sticky?

A lock and a sticky would mean more threads would be started the next time someone complains about being kicked out of a region :roll:

Hey. Any figures on how many Maxx has sold 'cause of us?

Last I checked: not enough to pay for the site.

hello people... this is a game. and the situation of the game at the moment is that francos spain is the dictator of an important region. the mods should do nothing. many people are having big fun to try to liberate the pacific, and eventually they will succeed.
leave the mods out of this. it is all just part of the game.

um... could someone send me a tg summarizing it?

:oops: i just came off getting two uni degrees in 6 years... i'm still catching up on what I want to read...

(one of my degrees was in english lit and creative writing..)

I got the book for my birthday, and I liked it, and have read it 2 times since I got it, while I'm having problems reading the last Lord of The Rings book :D

On-Topic, Several attempts have been made, but it is impossible by invading, because Francos runs a script. I have been looking and thinking at this for a while and I can't seem to think of an (possible) idea to remove him without breaking the rules or having mod intervention.

I fully agree with Ballotonia.

Francos does not run a script.

Francos does not run a script.

Now that's scary....someone with enough time to go through and check every UN nation in the pacific every day as well as monitering the regional boards for subversive comments... Well, can't say the guy isn't dedicated at least.

And his 147 endorsements means he's still go support as well...

or it's several people using one nation.

And there's nothing in the rules against that ;)

We have no evidence to support any accusations of cheating by Francos Spain or his supporters.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

And there's nothing in the rules against that ;)

Although somebody in the FS consortium could change the password and steal the country for themself....:twisted:

You have to admit, 50 ejections in 5 minutes impressive, reverse alphabetical order too. You make him a Mod he'd have the fastest DEAT draw of all of you. We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.

whoever he is, we will keep on trying to bring him down.

please go recruiting...

You have to admit, 50 ejections in 5 minutes impressive, reverse alphabetical order too. You make him a Mod he'd have the fastest DEAT draw of all of you. We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.

You never know, he might be a mod already :P There is no evidence that he isn't 8)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Free Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_free_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

Being a megaregion Delegate, even a malevolent one, takes an enormous amount of time, even if you aren't constantly having to keep one eye open. Being a mod also takes an enormous amount of time. I seriously doubt that anyone would be able to handle both time drains simultaneously and remain sane.

Now that's scary....someone with enough time to go through and check every UN nation in the pacific every day as well as monitering the regional boards for subversive comments... Well, can't say the guy isn't dedicated at least.
Well, two hours is plenty of time to check all the UN nations in the Pacific. He probably isn't doing it by himself either - I reckon his henchmen (there are probably some spies in most of the groups trying to take back the pacific, too, which would make it much easier) do a lot of the checking, and they send him a list of nations to boot a short time before the update. I think he spends at least a couple of hours watching what's happening as well, building his own list. Then, once he's got all the lists, the duplicates are removed and the lists are merged (if I recall correctly, the fastest way to do this would produce a sorted list, which could explain why nations are ejected in alphabetical order). Once he's got the list, it's simply of waiting until a couple of minutes before the update (he obviously knows when that is to within a minute or so), and clicking a bunch of eject buttons very fast. I said last night on the RR HQ that thirty nations per minute would be possible without using a script, but upon further consideration I reckon it'd be possible to eject over sixty nations per minute with the correct preparation. He's had a lot of practice by now, too.

he just had to list a number of nations in some kind of notebook and then click the eject. that's why he's so fast. i heard that this is the way the regional control works in the large regions. correct me if i'm wrong.

I believe the interface is the same for all regions (enter a nation name, click the eject button). However, that's not really much of an obstacle to someone with a pre-built list of nations to eject and a bit of clever thinking.

he just had to list a number of nations in some kind of notebook and then click the eject. that's why he's so fast. i heard that this is the way the regional control works in the large regions. correct me if i'm wrong.
You are correct, in 100+ nation regions, the pull-down menu is automatically replaced by a more efficient system, allowing bulk ejections and bans.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

um... could someone send me a tg summarizing it?
It's in the left box on the top of the screen on your nation's homepage. In summary, it's a darkly humorous view of the future of the world if capitalism becomes the world religion in which citizens take as their last name, the multinational conglommerate which they work for, (ex: John Nike) while an outnumbered and poorly equipped group of government bureaucrat/warriors attempts to ensure that these powerful companies stay within the law.

We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.
Post it here. Documentation is always interesting.

he just had to list a number of nations in some kind of notebook and then click the eject. that's why he's so fast. i heard that this is the way the regional control works in the large regions. correct me if i'm wrong.
You are correct, in 100+ nation regions, the pull-down menu is automatically replaced by a more efficient system, allowing bulk ejections and bans.

Tactical Grace
Forum Moderator

Seems to me that the mass-banning option is a bomb waiting to go off. I can picture an invader in a large region cutting and pasting their opponent's entire endorsement list into a box and viola!- instant griefing.

Seems to me that the mass-banning option is a bomb waiting to go off. I can picture an invader in a large region cutting and pasting their opponent's entire endorsement list into a box and viola!- instant griefing.
Well, that is what lies behind Francos Spain's apparently quick trigger finger. It is, in fact, an automated process, which only needs to be set in motion.

Seems to me that the mass-banning option is a bomb waiting to go off. I can picture an invader in a large region cutting and pasting their opponent's entire endorsement list into a box and viola!- instant griefing.
Well, that is what lies behind Francos Spain's apparently quick trigger finger. It is, in fact, an automated process, which only needs to be set in motion.

This is incredible. Why would any region need the ability to mass eject? Why do they have the ability to mass eject? Where is the check and balance to remove someone? The idea anyone could amass an invasion which would entail more than 70 people is hard to imagine. This was set up to remove the ability to legally invade? Understand I'm not questioning or trying to change a decision. I just want to know why. I have no desire to start an argument here.

Well, that is what lies behind Francos Spain's apparently quick trigger finger. It is, in fact, an automated process, which only needs to be set in motion.
Is there a limit on the number of nations which this thing will eject at once? If not, what is there to prevent a delegate of a pacific region from building a list of all nations in the region and ejecting them with a simple paste and click?

As far as I know, one at a time.

Quite right. What was being said was that instead of having a dropbox with all nations in the region to choose from, I have a field where I type in the nation to be booted. All ejections must be done individually.

Ah. You can only copy in one at a time. That sounds reasonable then.

Quite right. What was being said was that instead of having a dropbox with all nations in the region to choose from, I have a field where I type in the nation to be booted. All ejections must be done individually.

You have to be a data entry clerk in RL because you are phenomenally good and speedy as well. I tip my hat grudgingly.

You have to admit, 50 ejections in 5 minutes impressive, reverse alphabetical order too. You make him a Mod he'd have the fastest DEAT draw of all of you. We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.

You never know, he might be a mod already :P There is no evidence that he isn't 8)

yes there is. (oops this is bisty using tch's account while he's in the loo) I've had puppets in the pacific for a while. if he was a mod, he'dve known to look for the ip's of the sp cabinet and i would have been booted a month ago.
wait... tch disagrees... he says: he thinks the mods are monitored; can't look up ip's gratuitously.

*now i want a prize for most schizo post ever! 8) *

but, honey ( i disagree) i would have been breaking a mod order not to go in, he would have had the justification to do it.

Quite right. What was being said was that instead of having a dropbox with all nations in the region to choose from, I have a field where I type in the nation to be booted. All ejections must be done individually.

You have to be a data entry clerk in RL because you are phenomenally good and speedy as well. I tip my hat grudgingly.

bisty again. he could also be an arts major, when i get going i can type 95 wpm +

Copy/paste to a word file and then copy/paste back works too...done that one while doing a multi sweep before..

Copy/paste to a word file and then copy/paste back works too...done that one while doing a multi sweep before..

LOL! Improve your ejection skills at NS community college, your instructor Dr.N Sputniks......

I beleive this should isolate both sides effectively; Oh, and it's long:

I think that there is something being forgotten here. The role of the mods is to enforce the existing rules, but also to create new ones to address new concerns, and new forms of abuse. On the whole, if someone is using some new method to raise havoc, spread strife, and generally make hordes of people miserable at their own personal gain, the solution is not to throw our collective hands in the air and say "well, it's not illegal." If someone is using a new method of harassing other players, that new method should be banned.

That said, it is clear that due to the huge numbers involved, feeder regions have a huge potential for destruction. A Pacific-type region delegate can essentially clear-cut, burn, and pave every meaningful part of his or her region long before reaching the 40% ratio. Selective banning of anyone who sticks their head out will have (and has had, in the Pacific) the effect of effectively killing the region- the same effect as a total griefing, except the occupants' pain is dragged out over a long period of time instead of one fell swoop. The rules on griefing should be written so as to close this legal loophole.

Kanadrin, I like you, but you are as wrong (to me) on this topic as always. The worst thing is you post something smart, and almost refuse to debate an issue. Because of this, I can’t figure out at what point you take a wrong turn. I very much wish you to reply to this, because I fear you lecture on this rather debate.

It seems blind and improperly striking to suggest that because of the large number of banned nations that FS is greifing in some way. How many of these nations are the same player, simply creating puppets? At no point should a player be able to abuse a rule, that goes for mouse or lion. The underdog should in no way be able to take advantage of rules of the game, no more should the lion in this situation. So it seems to me that your suggestion is grossly incomplete. Yet, you keep saying this. You keep refusing to really deal with the issue of numbers though puppets rather then actual players denied access to the region.

As well, it is a feeder region. If he follows the rules, what is wrong in playing a feeder region as a dictator? It is a political structure, right? It is possible to overthrow him. I hope you don’t take this wrong, but is it possible your harping on this issue is because you are in charge of a feeder region w/o banning as an option? Sorry, got to ask.

Leave general Franco alone, you rra dummie.

Flame on?

Perhpas everyone should just treat the Pacific like the US has treated Cuba for the last 30+ years.

Best to leave RL politics out of the issue.

The worst part was the Kharkov didn't seek the delegacy or the endorsements. He was minding his own business until he was victimized by the endorsement swappers who had given him endorsements hoping that he would endorse them back during Francos Spain's "Vacation." There were more than a dozen such nations who suffered the same fate after the dust from Francos last "neutron bomb" settled out. I'll edit this post later and list them when I have time.

Kharkov was not ejected for his endorsement number. Please refer to the High Court board on the Pacific forum (http://newpacificorder.proboards19.com/index.cgi) for information on yesterday's ejections.

(Note: You must be logged in on the forum to be able to view the Senate and Court boards)

I don’t think you have to justify your ejection to the public. If you are going to, though, don’t just pretend. Actually make it open to the public. Open to the public if I give you all my information equals open only to those you want to have it. And, at that point you are either talking down to us or thinking you are much slyer then you are.

Sorry, I defend your right to honesty in the region, and think you are a very interesting player. But don’t pass out stale bread and call it a biscuit.


AND

I still prefer my simple and thorough solution: turn off the eject option in the five pacifics, as it is done in the RR. Note how Jennivier took over the RR recently and there was no griefing or calls for mod intervention on that at all (that I know of). Players handled the fight amongst themselves, which IMHO should be the prefered way of playing the game.

Ballotonia

+

Players handled the fight amongst themselves, which IMHO should be the prefered way of playing the game.


Bingo.

=

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them. If you really believe players should take action, and want to stop his current method of rule, do something. Don’t just discuss it in the forums. No offence intended (odd, I think this whole session of posts will likely isolate all sides that I talk to. Oh well. I hope only to help situations, and can offer nothing other then my O).
Kharkov was not ejected for his endorsement number. Please refer to the High Court board on the Pacific forum for information on yesterday's ejections.

(Note: You must be logged in on the forum to be able to view the Senate and Court boards)
As your board tracks IP addresses it would hardly be in anyone's best interest to log on to the board's forums. If you want us to know the arcana of your region's legal system, please either post relevant portions here or open the High Court Board to guest viewing.

To quote MGH, Bingo.


Come live in the South Pacific, we are a fun loving region of free-thinkers, rabble rousers, and conservatives. all are welcome, pretty much. no abusers please.

okay that's the end of my pitch. I will maintain that further discussion on this topic will only harm the anti-francos cause.

I always liked the King Missle line, “I am tired of re-acting/Lets activate something.” I get a lot of re-acting in this thread, and thus agree it does not help your side. People need to read this thread, and learn the best they can do is contact those who agree to help bring FS down (hint hint), to see what they can do. Complaining without action is good for little.



I'd prefer seeing those opposed to Francos working together to invade his region and remove him from power. So far, I've seen one attempt that was organized - and it was all multies.


And guilty of this is almost every player positioning against FS. It is interesting; this situation in The Pacific has led to the realization that we are too darned segmented of a community. People are so ego fed, they are hardly speaking to one another when planning anything that relates to the good of all. Instead, one group makes a plan, and expects the others to fall in step. People are only hurting themselves.


Everything that has been suggested in this thread has been discussed by the mods, and admin in great depth. Our conclusion was that nothing should be changed. We stand by that decision.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Most importantly, I am glad the topic is still open, but nothing being discussed is new at all.


It's at times like these that you have to re-read the first couple of pages again to remind yourself what the decision was. :lol:

Or the last 19?

A lock and a sticky would mean more threads would be started the next time someone complains about being kicked out of a region :roll:

Exactly. Not all that pro-freedom, but a good enough justification for free speech for me.


You have to admit, 50 ejections in 5 minutes impressive, reverse alphabetical order too. You make him a Mod he'd have the fastest DEAT draw of all of you. We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.

Impressive, sure. But I do not believe he is breaking a rule of any sort.

You have to admit, 50 ejections in 5 minutes impressive, reverse alphabetical order too. You make him a Mod he'd have the fastest DEAT draw of all of you. We copied the board from last night if you want to see it anytime.

You never know, he might be a mod already :P There is no evidence that he isn't 8)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
<----------------- Not a Moderator, just wanna help out.
CorinThe
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif
The Free Pacific (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=the_free_pacific) (for The Pacific alternative.)

I doubt it. That would be a big secret for him to hide.

Seems to me that the mass-banning option is a bomb waiting to go off. I can picture an invader in a large region cutting and pasting their opponent's entire endorsement list into a box and viola!- instant griefing.
Well, that is what lies behind Francos Spain's apparently quick trigger finger. It is, in fact, an automated process, which only needs to be set in motion.

This is incredible. Why would any region need the ability to mass eject? Why do they have the ability to mass eject? Where is the check and balance to remove someone? The idea anyone could amass an invasion which would entail more than 70 people is hard to imagine. This was set up to remove the ability to legally invade? Understand I'm not questioning or trying to change a decision. I just want to know why. I have no desire to start an argument here.

When one of your allies is attacked by an invader, and the DEL is able to mass eject them before the UN update, you think it is a good thing. Why the difference just because you don’t like the ruler?

Ack, I like you but I swear to god you only read half of what I write....I was responding to the erroneous implication one could cut and paste entire blocks for mass deletions. Not one at a time. And as far as why is ok for one of my allies to do it? None of my allies has mass ejected anyone, ejections always follow a due process of some sorts. If they did do that they wouldn't be an ally. I admire Francos cajones but I don't like the way he's maintaining power. I also don't like the way NS is so segmented that the egomaniacs who pose as delegates for 90% of the regions can't see why they should be bothered to do anything. There is those who care, if anyone else does I'm sure they can make the essential connections in the grey matter to figure out where the resistance is forming. I love the rules, I hate the ejection powers and I feel badly for n00bs being dropped into the middle of a police state. If it had happened like that for me I'd be off having a real life right now. Wait a minute.....

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them.

I'm not arguing in favor of a 'de-throwning' of FS. As I've said before (and you apparently missed) I have nothing against FS in person. As far as I care they make him a Mod. FS didn't wrong me in any way. I've been arguing what I perceive to be a flaw in the design of the game. In that regard I see FS's reign more as a symptom of said flaw than anything I should blame him for. It's just the way the game is right now.

SalusaSecondus was the first (after 20+ pages!!) to actually respond to my game design arguments and state that issue had been discussed by the Mods. I'm still hoping some of the argumentation used in their discussions will be published, as I'd like to hear what their reasoning was and how they came to the (aparent, as this only clear through the ommision of change) conclusion that in their opinion there is no flaw.

And, Ackbar, I haven't seen or heared you being involved in any activity aimed at 'de-throwning' FS either.

Ballotonia

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them. If you really believe players should take action, and want to stop his current method of rule, do something. Don’t just discuss it in the forums.

Do something??? Is that all you can say. OK, let's take some actions. Now, since you're such a smart-ass, what do you suggest we do?

Work out exactly when the region updates, get enough people to join literally a minute before, alll endorse one person, et voilin, no more FS.

Now do it legally.

You need to get 150 people together, all in the same time-zone (most people can't be on-line in the middle of the night) all active on the same moment, all endorsing one person at the right time.

This has been tried before, and failed. It's impossible.

there is a way to do it...

but you should start recruiting right now, and don't stop until you've got 200 soldiers.

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them. If you really believe players should take action, and want to stop his current method of rule, do something. Don’t just discuss it in the forums.

Do something??? Is that all you can say. OK, let's take some actions. Now, since you're such a smart-ass, what do you suggest we do?

You, sir/ma'am, are flamebaiting. Stop.

Hints have been given. broad hints... long hints...

Ballot, I have been on like 4 pages discussing the de-throwning of FS. I have yet to see you on one of them. If you really believe players should take action, and want to stop his current method of rule, do something. Don’t just discuss it in the forums.

Do something??? Is that all you can say. OK, let's take some actions. Now, since you're such a smart-ass, what do you suggest we do?

You, sir/ma'am, are flamebaiting. Stop.

Sorry, I apologise. I was a bit frustrated because of an ejection. Now I'm feeling great again...

---Post Deleted By Nation States Moderator---

Thanks, freedom of speech is still alive. There was nothing derrogatory here. ~TigersPaw9

Moderate this:

Founded: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 5381

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:30 am Post subject: The Decision in the Region of The Pacific

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After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

Last edited by Neutered Sputniks on Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

This was the decision made in September, in favor of FS. It looks like the opposite decision is being made again - in FAVOR of FS?!?

Seconds ago The Allied States of Roysten Vasey I suspect Francos had a little weep to neut how unfair NS is to him. That is why Neut is here.

It's now posted in 4 forum boards plus the pacific message board where your buddy is....
facts are facts, we were told it would play out with no intervention. Now who wants to say why this was changed? Why it was really changed? All the rules have been followed. Facts are Facts.

Today was a sad, sad day for democracy.
I've lost respect for Neut.

No....they still have my respect. Now, if the Mods don't hold up their end of the honor code then they'll lose my respect, but I refuse to disbelieve in the inherent morality and good in people.

Good thing is Francos will not be allowed to eject anyone and the ban list will be cleared to be ready for glitch II. The voices of the entire "World" were heard, Francos voice is small compared. The mods cannot justify allowing Francos full power again, all the regions will stand in protest. I for one will be a part of those voices if it comes to that, banned or not, I don't care. If this game is about political correctness, I'm all for it. If it's all about hipocracy, I can get that anywhere and have no need of this place. I wait to see their decision.

People, I ask you to understand what you are asking.

Should the Mods allow the invasion to continue, future exploitations of such glitches against any Delegate - whether popular or not, whether a dictator or not - would be legal. Are you sure that you want to allow this, simply to liberate one single region?

On the other hand, yes, Francos runs a dictatorship. There are other methods to removing a dictator. If the other UN members of his region truly believed him to be a horrible dictator, why do they still endorse him?

Invasions are still legal, we are simply asking for more time to discuss the future implications associated with today's events. Should the exploitation of a glitch be decided to be a legal tactic for invasions, the glitch shall be recreated with the following guidelines:

A) It will happen on an undisclosed day (most likely a weekend/holiday).

B) No one will have ban powers in The Pacific for an entire period between updates, may the best man/woman win.

C) Francos will not be allowed more than 147 endorsements.



Remember, that is only if the Mods determine this tactic to be legal.

You ask why do they still endorse him? Check his own laws....read them carefully....he bans any nation that he catches breaking even one of them.....

Civil Code for Uniform Justice and Order in the Pacific:

The offenses listed below are punishable by banishment to the realms outlying the vast region of the Pacific:

--Civil Disobediance
1001: A declaration of dislike for the Delegate of the Pacific or his policies with intent to subvert the Government.

1002: Insulting or spreading calumny about a member of the Government in public or in telegram.

1003: Frequent posts of an inappropriate subject.

1004: Excessively poor grammar.

1005: Harassment of a fellow Pacifican either in public or by telegram.

1006: Giving your endorsement to a nation with whom you are not familiar personally. (Obviously, all Pacific nations are familiar with the nations that govern them)

1007: Unauthorized use of another nation's flag or other details as your own.

1008: Objectionable nation name, flag, or motto.

--Political Accountability
2001: Expression of dislike for the policies of the Pacific Government or those Governments allied with or declared friendly by the Pacific Government.

2002: Expression of views considered counter to those of the Pacific Government.

2003: I told you before, I don't like Spam!

2004: Resigning from the UN without obtaining authorization from the proper Government ministry.

2005: Failure to become aligned with the Delegate.

--Treason
0001: Seeking more than 15 endorsements.

0002: Being a puppet of a banned nation.

0003: Assisting those seeking more than 15 endorsements.

0004: Belonging to a subversive organization.

C) Francos will not be allowed more than 147 endorsements.
If he has a larger number of endorsements, which will be removed?

In addition, will the descision be announced as soon as it is made?

Did you catch 2004 and 2005? There are many that baffle, but these are the ones I speak of for now. Under FS, you must endorse him, and you must ask his permission to resign from the UN, and you must agree with every word that comes out of his mouth. They must be your own beliefs.


Now, why not leave? Because we people are not all saps that allow dictators to stay in control.

Should the Mods allow the invasion to continue, future exploitations of such glitches against any Delegate - whether popular or not, whether a dictator or not - would be legal. Are you sure that you want to allow this, simply to liberate one single region?

Now that was my understanding as well, until SalusaSecondus corrected me on it and said there would be no mod intervention. That thread, BTW, seems to have vanished into thin air... (moved to Mod Center, I hope?)

Ballotonia

That thread was indeed moved to the Mod/Admin forum.


Salusa and I discussed the issue before he posted the first time. We did not, however, at the time take into account the further ramifications of allowing the invasion of a region via the exploitation of a glitch.


Look, I dont necessarily like seeing a dictator such as Francos in power. That doesnt mean that exploiting a glitch is the way to depose him. If you're going to do it, do it right. You almost had him friday night, from what I understand. Try it again another time - it is possible to depose him fair and square.

People, I ask you to understand what you are asking.

Should the Mods allow the invasion to continue, future exploitations of such glitches against any Delegate - whether popular or not, whether a dictator or not - would be legal. Are you sure that you want to allow this, simply to liberate one single region?

A fair point, one I will have to think about. Later. I am very frustrated: Salusa had a post that suggested this sort of thing would be ok; the thread has now disappeared. The late time of the ruling means that a lot of time that people have put in has come to naught. They will also be very frustrated and many will probably be quite angry as well. I would urge you to show consideration for them. In particular I would suggest no condescension or sarcasm. I realize I am not the best person to be making these suggestions, but I hope you will consider than nonetheless. At this point in time I am not challanging your ruling.

Well, thanks for your sympathy Sputniks, though we wish you'd have stuck with the first decision :wink: ...as for friday night...friday night was a trap that we were lured into like the damned sheep we are, and rightfully slaughtered as befitted falling for somthing like that. But....the war goes on.

Oh, you mean this one???

8)

Founded: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 5381

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:30 am Post subject: The Decision in the Region of The Pacific

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

Last edited by Neutered Sputniks on Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

I told you I saved it, and it is posted elsewhere as well.

I hope that in my posts tonight I have been neither condescending, nor sarcastic. If I have been percieved as such, I apologize, it was not my intent.


I also apologize for the late intervention. We began discussing the issue in our IRC channel many hours before, and discussed until the point I entered the region.

I hope that in my posts tonight I have been neither condescending, nor sarcastic. If I have been percieved as such, I apologize, it was not my intent.


I also apologize for the late intervention. We began discussing the issue in our IRC channel many hours before, and discussed until the point I entered the region.

I stayed up all night, and now I have to go to school. Lol, this situation will never return, no matter what happens. It would have been better if I stepped down after obtaining the delegate's place. I would, but that just speculation now.

Oh, you mean this one???

8)

Founded: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 5381

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:30 am Post subject: The Decision in the Region of The Pacific

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After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

Last edited by Neutered Sputniks on Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

I told you I saved it, and it is posted elsewhere as well.


Check the date on that quote.

...........and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

No Corinthe, you gave everyone hope. Hope for a furture where they matter, like abused children and battered wives. Don't give up. It may be a game, but it is the fight, it means something. You know this, or you never would have taken it on. People like Francos, there's a screw loose there...he can't continue to toy with others lives as he has. He just can't.

Hey now, no flaming. Lets discuss this as reasonable adults (I know you probably think myself unreasonable, but I ask you to at least be willing to discuss)

This isn't a game glitch, it was a fire in the United Nations HQ! Read the News page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=news) for details!

I checked the date:
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:30 am Post subject: The Decision in the Region of The Pacific

Do you think it started this weekend?

Hey now, no flaming. Lets discuss this as reasonable adults (I know you probably think myself unreasonable, but I ask you to at least be willing to discuss)

Can you tell me what's there to discuss. The case is broken off, and there is nothing to discuss. You know it! All you do now is dreaming that you can apeace us and hope we will calm dow. Expect many nations cease to exist in about 28 days from now! Saves you a whole lot of work deating them!

LIBERATION!

Sun, 26 Oct 2003
Fire! Fire!

It is my sad duty to report that a great fire at the United Nations Headquarters wiped out entire filing cabinets worth of UN Delegate lists last night, throwing entire regions into Delegacy chaos. Regions such as The Pacific, which were formerly quiet, peaceful havens of iron tyranny, are now in a state of Delegate-free uproar.

Actually, it may have been a system crash. The fire is unconfirmed. But what is certain is that the United Nations bureaucrats are even now scurrying back into action to update their vital Regional Delegacy records. Very shortly, in each region, the nation with the most endorsements will again be officially appointed its Delegate.

The UN wishes to convey its apologies for the inconvenience, and stress that no nation has lost any endorsements. In the meantime, those nations frightened by this new Delegate-free world order, particularly those in the Pacific, are encouraged to inhale deeply and smell the liberty. Or is it smoke? It's hard to tell.

God bless you!

Corinthe! You have the most endorsements!

Mind if I don't laugh?

I KNOW YOU ARE TIRED, WE HAVE ALL BEEN AT THIS FOR HOURS UPON HOURS.....

But it's all good now....

Thanks to the mods....they saw it for what it was.
:D

Go for it...you heard the...whatever [violet] is... ;)

Looks like a job for SUPER MAX!!

Re-install Corinthe. The True Domination says so.

1 minute ago The Dictatorship of Kie Whatever it was, the mods had no right to force Corinthe to leave. We were doing a perfectly legal invasion and the mods stopped it, so they broke the rules, so to speak. It's cheap, that's what it is.

So what about it mods? Corinthe had the most endorsements, so this post means her, right?

She goes back in and her endorsements are still there....right? The post says the one with the most, and that is her, and why else mention the smell of victory?

1 minute ago The Dictatorship of Kie Whatever it was, the mods had no right to force Corinthe to leave. We were doing a perfectly legal invasion and the mods stopped it, so they broke the rules, so to speak. It's cheap, that's what it is.

So what about it mods? Corinthe had the most endorsements, so this post means her, right?

I had 157 endorsements, got in 20 hours. All destroyed in e few minutes, and now they expect me to do it all again. Am I the only one with a life here? :?

C'mon Corinthe. Get yer hiney back in there..

Shouldn't they be there waiting? No one removed them from you.

Wait a sec... but what's his face shooed us all away

That ain't fair.

I believe you'll still have most of them if you return, but I doubt it'd still be enough...

Your endorsements should be intact.

I believe you'll still have most of them if you return, but I doubt it'd still be enough...

I had 137 when I left, and most of my endorsees are gone.

Go and see! And it's not reset time yet either? at reset time, the one with the most endorsements! That's you!

1 minute ago The Dictatorship of Kie Whatever it was, the mods had no right to force Corinthe to leave. We were doing a perfectly legal invasion and the mods stopped it, so they broke the rules, so to speak. It's cheap, that's what it is.

So what about it mods? Corinthe had the most endorsements, so this post means her, right?

I had 157 endorsements, got in 20 hours. All destroyed in e few minutes, and now they expect me to do it all again. Am I the only one with a life here? :?

I think Corinthe should be installed regardless... we had it, right up to when the party was broken up.

When it ended she had 150 and FS had 140, or so I remember...

i wonder if they'll tell us if they decide to let franky lose delegacy or not (without telling the date), or that we'll just wake up one morning, and see franky gone, or wait for something that will never happen..

Your endorsements should be intact.

Only if the nations are still in the Pacific and they are leaving in droves. This isn't part of the deal. You said you'd replicate the conditions so when is that going to be? There's no way we can get Corinthe back to where she was before you broke the party up tonight.

Francos has 145, and more nations have left. However, according to Neutered Sputniks, we get another shot some time soon if it's deemed fair. This news item implies that that's the case.

There is one point which i think has not been discussed.

Why did FS not ask people for endorsemetns? why didn't he campaign? are the mods taking this into account? I spent allday on this thing (my bitt is square) and i haven't seen him yet. In fact i spent a good amount of time asking where he was. no answer. a lot of evasion from his supporters and no answer.

now i think i will go to bed. i am overtired, and cranky. and certain this post will be ignored.

at least we tried.

Why did FS not ask people for endorsemetns? why didn't he campaign? are the mods taking this into account?
I suspect he had something planned for the minutes before the update.

Your endorsements should be intact.

Only if the nations are still in the Pacific and they are leaving in droves. This isn't part of the deal. You said you'd replicate the conditions so when is that going to be? There's no way we can get Corinthe back to where she was before you broke the party up tonight.

Forced out of the region would be the correct term.

one more note before i go: i would like some assurance that my people will not be molested. i am having trouble gettin ahold of a few of them. (it's late in thier timezone) They may not have seen the ruling. please if you must just send them away, dont hut them.

bistmath - vp the south pacific

Why did FS not ask people for endorsemetns? why didn't he campaign? are the mods taking this into account?
I suspect he had something planned for the minutes before the update.

I still want it taken into account that he did nothing to save his delegacy but whine and winge.

however i fully believe that post will be ignored.

night all.

Francos has 145, and more nations have left. However, according to Neutered Sputniks, we get another shot some time soon if it's deemed fair. This news item implies that that's the case.

No matter what will be decided, they simply ignore the fact that Francos could have played the same thing as I did. Restarting it, will give me no fair chance whatsoever. I gave my best for this. I need to sleep at nights you know. I live in a different timezone. You guys will simply do the game after work, while my chance comes at midnight or later, but this time without my vacation to back me up.

If you move out of the region, you don't immediately lose all your endorsements -- they're just hidden until you return to the region you gained them in.

(At least, until the daily update.)

And don't let Francos eject anyone come reset time

]If you move out of the region, you don't immediately lose all your endorsements -- they're just hidden until you return to the region you gained them in.

(At least, until the daily update.)

A simple duh! sufice for this.

Oh, just to clarify:

The current situation is unusual, won't be repeated, wasn't planned, and won't be interfered with one way or the other by moderators.

There is currently 1 hr and 5 minutes left until the start of the daily update.

Life is full of little surprises! :)

violet, it's not their updates i'm worried about. more thier un status. please keep them in the un. it's not thier fault this ruling came so late at night for them. just move themout if you have to. i think i've managed to tg them all.

thanks.

night.

]Oh, just to clarify:

The current situation is unusual, won't be repeated, wasn't planned, and won't be interfered with one way or the other by moderators.

There is currently 1 hr and 5 minutes left until the start of the daily update.

Life is full of little surprises! :)

:?

thanks again.
a grateful bisty - vp the south pacific.

]If you move out of the region, you don't immediately lose all your endorsements -- they're just hidden until you return to the region you gained them in.

(At least, until the daily update.)

A simple duh! sufice for this.

I guess what I'm saying Corinthe is that right now it looks to me like you have an awful lot of endorsements.

]Oh, just to clarify:

The current situation is unusual, won't be repeated, wasn't planned, and won't be interfered with one way or the other by moderators.

There is currently 1 hr and 5 minutes left until the start of the daily update.

Life is full of little surprises! :)

Thanks, most of the invasion force is sleeping now and unavailable. Sal made a statement which was to the effect that there would be no interference and it was broken and all onsite evidence destroyed. Neut assures us to give you all time you'd replicate the conditions. Sorry but your solution is not acceptable and your credibility sank even lower.

I am told to leave the Pacific, if I return now, I have only about 137 endorsements left. A great way to just simply get ejected when Francos comes in power

The thing is, violet, the way you show things to be right now, we should've been allowed to continue. The fresh smell of freedom, or something to that end, right? We were told to get out and stay out... now we're told we could've taken advantage of the situation? No, that's just a bit too much for me to take tonight. I'll thank you to either put Corinthe in charge or set us up for another fair run at it. Too many hearts were broken tonight to have it any other way.

I don't blame you, violet.

Should have said all this BEFORE shoving her out the door and insisting the other go as well.....how is it fair she walks back in, and people are gone that were there before?

Thanks, most of the invasion force is sleeping now and unavailable. Sal made a statement which was to the effect that there would be no interference and it was broken and all onsite evidence destroyed. Neut assures us to give you all time you'd replicate the conditions. Sorry but your solution is not acceptable and your credibility sank even lower.
I have to agree with this, unfortunately. What this has indicated is that ignoring the requests of the moderators is more likely to result in success.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

Thanks, most of the invasion force is sleeping now and unavailable. Sal made a statement which was to the effect that there would be no interference and it was broken and all onsite evidence destroyed. Neut assures us to give you all time you'd replicate the conditions. Sorry but your solution is not acceptable and your credibility sank even lower.
I have to agree with this, unfortunately. What this has indicated is that ignoring the requests of the moderators is more likely to result in success.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

So outright lies are acceptable by admin now? they expect us to listen to them and this is the reward? Nice.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

There was no reason why Francos could not simply have challenged me, but instead he decided to whine to the mods, who where impartial as ever.

This proves my earlier statement in the message board to be correct....this game is not what it is portrayed to be, it is hipocritical hogwash. You can find this anywhere, you don't stand out as politically correct, as a stand-up professional place. I can't believe my college actually has us go here as part of our class. I intend to spread the word, you can count on it, in fact, to all colleges sending you students who get interested enough to want to play more, your potential customers, guess what? Wave goodbye to them!

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

So outright lies are acceptable by admin now? they expect us to listen to them and this is the reward? Nice.

I agree that the situation wasn't handled very well, but that doesn't change the fact that Francos never should have lost his seat in the first place. It was a game glitch and it's not very sporting to try to take advantage of it. Now to cry foul when you don't get a cheap victory sounds like sour grapes to me.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

There was no reason why Francos could not simply have challenged me, but instead he decided to whine to the mods, who where impartial as ever.

Why should he have to? You only got a chance because of a game glitch, not by outplaying him.

So, lets see, Corinthe, 137, Francos 145...8 nations...I bet you can find 8 nations in approx an hour...just a guess though...

It's not 137 anymore.

You never should have had the chance to begin with. It was a glitch.

So outright lies are acceptable by admin now? they expect us to listen to them and this is the reward? Nice.

I agree that the situation wasn't handled very well, but that doesn't change the fact that Francos never should have lost his seat in the first place. It was a game glitch and it's not very sporting to try to take advantage of it. Now to cry foul when you don't get a cheap victory sounds like sour grapes to me.

*shakes head* the situation wasn't handled well, the ejection powers are all too encompassing, rules so flexible I can bounce across the room with them. Yes it was a glitch and after taking part in fruitless campaigns against this guy the ONE chance we had at success and we were deceived and inveigled. How do you expect anyone to believe Neut and Steph now on anything Violet? Maybe you should have come down and done this and save them some credibility.

I am sorry this has been a frustrating experience for some. The mods had to make a tough call in a difficult situation, and they made a sensible decision: to prevent anyone taking advantage of accidental circumstances. I don't criticise any of them for this decision, and I don't think anyone else seriously can, either. It's a judgement call.

But I look at this as one of those little interesting oddities that life occasionally throws up. They are part of the real world, and so can be part of the game, too. So the temporary moderator-imposed ban invasion has been lifted.

I am not going to deliberately duplicate these circumstances, because they should never have arisen in the first place. This wasn't planned! It was a bizarre accident. By rights the window of opportunity should never have been open. But it was. Then it wasn't. Now it is again. It closes in about an hour.

I've heard two diffrent takes on the issue:

We'll do nothing.
and
Glitch II: return of the Glitch

If the mods can't give us one answer, what good are they? :x

Seconds ago The Allied States of Dragefolket Has anyone considered asking the Mods to send in their UN nations to support us?

Seconds ago The Allied States of Dragefolket Has anyone considered asking the Mods to send in their UN nations to support us?

Yes, please support us.

Your mixed messages have hurt our cause very badly... the least you could do is back us on this issue, as you've put us into this situation.

I wouldn't ask the Mods to do that....even though they may appear unbiased they really do try to not take sides and I will respect them for that.

Just try to get as much support as you can and we can displace Francos, and if the Majority of the Pacific don't like the outcome they can always *shutter* reelect him.