NationStates Jolt Archive

After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

I'm very disappointed. The current situation is an excellent example on how to bleed the fun out of a game, and maintaining it shows extremely poor game design skills. I know there won't be a change in Mod opinion, but just wanted to let you know how I feel about this.

One more reason for me to remain playing this game has vanished.

Ballotonia

Why don't you just go to a different region, and start your own little empire?

Why don't you just go to a different region, and start your own little empire?

If you had bothered to check, you'd have seen I'm the delegate of region Holland. My opinion has more to do with proper game design than with my particular position in this game right now.

Ballotonia

..so basically this doesn't really affect you, unless you're silly enough not to use the exact same tactics to keep hold on your region?

Wonderfully hypocritical of you.

This system works, because it allows the mods to take as little involvement as possible in the petty squabbles of regional politics.

And that's a GOOD THING(TM).

I think it's time for players to take matters in their own hands. All players should be taken off the banlist of The Pacific. Free speech should return to the region. The evil dictatorship of Francos has to fall. He is making a mockery of the rules in this game!
Everyone should join me right now, to show that this can't continue. I will not stay in power there. I just want to clean the banlist. If you think the decision of the mods is fair, don't bother to join my army! Every soldier reporting will be screened! Every player misbehaving in my army will be banned from my site. Good soldiers will be promoted. And order will be reïnstalled in The Pacific!

Btw, I have decided to play it the hard way. I have had some mods treathening to warn me. And, really, I see no other way, than doing it the hard way! I have nothing to loose. The rules are made a mockery! I will not let this come over me voluntarily! Mods feel free to punish me, for not talking it laying down!

Avenging Angel.

After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.


--Neutered Sputniks--
NationStates Game Moderator

Btw, it is not the regional happenings I care about. It is the complete lack of being able to deal with a situation, where a delegate can eject all oposition, taking them never off the banlist ever again, while they have not commited any crime, or broke any rule, whatsoever!!

Avenging Angel.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

I will note that I have never seen it posted anywhere that regional banishment is a form of in-game punishment. I was banned from a region for refusing to join the UN. Other nations have banned ponential invaders, people they don't like, and and potential threats to power. You don't like it? Tough. This is a free game you play. You take what you get.

You may take what you get. I have other plans. My puppet was banned for having to many endorsements. You are playing this game for a long time now, my friend, but you still react like if you don't know. A delegate may eject about 40% of all players in a region, without retalliation of the mods! He needs no reason. All he needs is a fast trigger hand and a complete lack of RL.

Avenging Angel.

Here are the statistics of number of nations, delegate endorsements, and number of bans in all the Pacific regions. The figures are slightly out of date already, but it should be clear from them which delegates are fairly elected with the consent of the other nations in the region and which are griefers/tyrants.

The figures given are: Number of nations in region, number of endorsements the delegate has, % of nations in region endorsing the delegate, number of banned nations in the region, % of banned nations in the region (calculated from # of bans /(# of nations + # of bans)

The North Pacific (Treenudity)
4826 645 13.37% 0 0.00%

The South Pacific (LadyRebels)
4715 506 10.73% 6 0.13%

The Pacific (Francos Spain)
4642 192 4.14% 295 5.98%

The West Pacific (Norion)
4326 476 11.00% 24 0.55%

The East Pacific (1 infinite loop)
3818 191 5.00% 68 1.75%

1 infinite loop's ban figure is high, but Franco's is ridiculous. 6% of all nations are banned - that's a *huge* number in a region as large as the Pacific. Franco is the only delegate in any of the pacifics with more bans than endorsements.

The mods have basically declared that mass griefing is OK. The "but real life isn't fair" argument is a copout. This is a GAME, and game's are supposed to be FUN, but this game isn't fun anymore.

Violet, I suggest you update your FAQ. Under the question:
"Once I've taken over a region, can I eject everyone else?"
change the answer to "Yes, this is perfectly legal".

Bye everyone, it was fun till Franco ruined it, and the mods took his side.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

You may take what you get. I have other plans. My puppet was banned for having to many endorsements. You are playing this game for a long time now, my friend, but you still react like if you don't know. A delegate may eject about 40% of all players in a region, without retalliation of the mods! He needs no reason. All he needs is a fast trigger hand and a complete lack of RL.

Avenging Angel.

No, my friend, you still don't understand. You can try to start la revolucion if you like. But don't expect the Mods to get involved. And, again, I will note that 40% is not an official number. I don't know who pulled that out of which A-Space, but it's incorrect. The mods will take action if it's clear the bans are part of a griefing campaign, but in the case of purely political matters, they will not, as demonstrated today.

I know my English is somewhat broken, my friend, but I stated: "about 40%". Which differs by the size of each regio. So the number is not exactly 40%. If you want, I can do the cumbersome work of finding the quote of the mod who told this, but I rather have a mod stepping in and telling it himself.

Avenging Angel.

Btw, don't look at the size of this nation. It is just a puppet, of a nation that is busy recruiting, and thus will remain anonimous. I play this game for a long time now.

Francos Spain still holds close to 200 endorsements, no? This would mean that he is still the popularly elected Delegate of the region. Just because you personally disagree with being banned, or disagree with his election, the bottom line is that he still has approx 200 supporters.

As for the total of approx 300 banned nations, many of those are puppets of banned players that were created either to grief Francos Spain, to get around the ban, or to invade and were caught.

Francos Spain still holds close to 200 endorsements, no? This would mean that he is still the popularly elected Delegate of the region. Just because you personally disagree with being banned, or disagree with his election, the bottom line is that he still has approx 200 supporters.

As for the total of approx 300 banned nations, many of those are puppets of banned players that were created either to grief Francos Spain, to get around the ban, or to invade and were caught.

I understand that griefing, spamming and bad language is an offence. But trying to get around the ban and invasions is completely legal. It is no reason to ban someone off the Regio forever. Right now he is using the rules to treat people like criminals. That is is not fun anymore. Many good players are considering to stop, because they don't like to be treated as criminals, though it's only a game, they just want a fair ruling, for fair play. Right now, some fair players are on that list. I can only name my own puppet, but since I am planning an invasion, I will not name any.

Avenging Angel.

Yeah sure Neut. Unsolicited telegrams from Francos isn't spam. Mass bannings from him isn't grief. Any attempts from anyone to recover the region is spam and grief.

I understand now.

Francos Spain ejecting threats to his "throne" is entirely legal, and a fairly effective poltical strategy...

I never stated that it was illegal to attempt to use a puppet to despose Francos Spain, merely gave possible reasons for Francos Spain's ejections.



I would suggest that rather than attempt to argue the ruling that was decided upon by the entire Moderation group, you redirect that energy, time, and posting to some other constructive activity.

Yeah sure Neut. Unsolicited telegrams from Francos isn't spam. Mass bannings from him isn't grief. Any attempts from anyone to recover the region is spam and grief.

I understand now.

Did he send 1500 in one day? Cutting and pasting? Or did he actually take some time? Maybe talk to other members of his region? Did you recieve one prior to his assuming the Delegateship?

the bottom line is that he still has approx 200 supporters.

I object to use of the term 'supporters' here. Those endorsements were given by mainly newbies through endorsement swapping. They do not constitute an expression of support for his nation, his policies, or anything else for that matter.

The reality is that feeder regions are very different from other regions in that the rather high percentage of clueless people can completely destroy any political process that might be taking place there.

The insistence of the powers that be to interpret the events in The Pacific as political in nature is IMHO based on wishful thinking, not on the meaning of what is actually happening. The current situation in The Pacific has *NOTHING* to do with politics. Zero. Nada. Nothing at all.

It's purely the abuse of a game mechanic by one person to annoy the hell out of a few hundred others. I understand that this wasn't covered in the rules, fine. But for this to be willingly and knowingly allowed to continue shows IMHO disrespect for the experienced players and ruins the enjoyment they otherwise might get from playing this game. It's very BAD game design.

Ballotonia

Woah...Francos Spain still has 200 endorsements, a good 2 weeks after assuming the position of delegate? I highly doubt that anyone in that region is unaware of what is going on. Especially not his supporters. Simply because you disagree with someone else's viewpoint does not make the other viewpoint any less right than yours is.

Although, I do appreciate the change from the accusation that the endorsements Francos has are all from somewhat older, inactive nations...

Francos Spain ejecting threats to his "throne" is entirely legal, and a fairly effective poltical strategy...

In a small region, where nation know one another better and there's communication going on, etc... I would say ejecting/banning can validly be seen as a political event. When the bulk of ones endorsements are gained through endorsement swapping with peopel who have no idea what is happening, the ejection/banning has no political meaning whatsoever. It's merely using an available tool to maintain absolute power. And that 'power' is the access to region control, NOT political power.

I would suggest that rather than attempt to argue the ruling that was decided upon by the entire Moderation group, you redirect that energy, time, and posting to some other constructive activity.

Like play other games? As it stands, there is no reasonable way for Francos Spain to legaly lose the delegacy unless he allows that to happen or simply walks away.

Ballotonia

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

Simply because you disagree with someone else's viewpoint does not make the other viewpoint any less right than yours is.

Viewpoint? Francos Spain has no real political viewpoint for me to disagree with. He's not arguing anything. He's not arguing at all. He doesn't have to. HIS POWER IS NOT BASED ON ANYTHING POLITICAL. His power is based on a combination of the avilability of a game mechanic and the current game rules. Politics has nothing to do with this.

Although, I do appreciate the change from the accusation that the endorsements Francos has are all from somewhat older, inactive nations...

Where did I say that? Don't put words into my mouth please.

Ballotonia

Let's see... all you have to do is get 200 endorsements... then invade, and ban him.

You do know what puppets are, right?

:roll:

Oh yes, 200+ UN Members are needed to take out ONE person, who is in power due to a major flaw in the basic design of this game. And after that the basic flaw stays there so it's just a matter of time before the whole sordid episode starts over from scratch. When I play a game, I'd like to be able to actually PLAY the game, instead of having to run around covering up design flaws.

As for the puppets remark: yes, anyone could cheat and create 200 puppet UN Members and invade The Pacific. Frankly, I think I understand enough of how the cheatscan functions that I'm convinced I'd be able to do so without being detected until after the invasion has taken place. But hey, I'm not willing to break the rules, so I'm not gonna do that.

Ballotonia

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

Ballotonia, will you please check your TGbox.

Avenging Angel.

it's disappointing, yes, but not unexpected..
that's all i'm going to say about it now, otherwise i might say something i'll regret later..
cg

Ballotonia, a message from Neut:
<Neut> ...Raem...kindly tell Ballotonia that I never stated he made an argument that Francos Spain's endorsements were old, inactive players...however, other nations attempting to get the Mods to intervene have...
<Neut> also mention that this is politics since there's an elected leader...thus, it's politics...
<Neut> ;)
I don't think he's on speaking terms with you right now. Seems to have something to do with the fact that you won't shut up about something that has nothing to do with you, and that you have no control over.

Since I am a player here, the game design and rules DO affect me, and have everything to do with me. It's the environment in which I must play the game and decide on a strategy to follow. Also, I DID get kicked out of The Pacific myself, albeit not with this nation. But hey, I'm not upset about getting kicked. I AM disappointed that a major design flaw is allowed to persist.

Furthermore: to describe the process of endorsement swapping in a feeder region as an 'election' is plain wrong. That's not how the game functions in practice. I understand that is how the powers that be WANTS it to function, but it doesn't. Those endorsements do not constitute political support. I understand they WANT for endorsements to have that meaning, but that's not the meaning they have when you put 5000 new players ina region together and let them just sit there without further explanation on the game.

Ballotonia

....yeah, because the United States Congress doesnt play the vote-swap game at all, so it cant be in politics...

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

....yeah, because the United States Congress doesnt play the vote-swap game at all, so it cant be in politics...

These are active participants who vote-swap with political intent. Newbies in The Pacific are not.

You edited Raem's message:
"Seems to have something to do with the apparent futility of explaining further how your argument is flawed.
Edited by Neut to reflect the true cause."

If my argument is flawed, you could easily show it is through an acual argument of your own. Instead you don't seem to get any further than easily-refuted one-liners. Did you actually spend some time thinking about the problem at all?

Ballotonia

Yes, Ballotonia, we are acutely aware of your angst in the matter.
Despite your protests, you are the delegate of another region, so I don't see how it applies to you. The Pacific is a feeder region, so it's only the first stop most people make. Most continue on to join or found other regions.

Your bull-headed belligerence in repeatedly stating the exact same thing over and over again, in face of the fact that it will change nothing, is just getting irritating.

And I think you are Flame-baiting right now. Please tone down in your defence of the present situation! I am beginning to suspect you of a hidden benefit of the situation in The Pacific. Your defence is too pasionate.

Avenging Angel.

And I think you are Flame-baiting right now.

Look at it this way: it's an interesting test to see if the rules apply equally to those who agree with the Mods :)

Ballotonia

probably not...
and i don't think posting here will help us, the only thing the mods have done in this matter is:
-ruin our best hope for victory, by telling no one is to enter the pacific when francos was deleted
-threathen us
-sympathise and defend francos..

i'd like to invite everyone to move this discussion to the original pacific forum, the url is in the factbook of pacific army.
posting here is just a waste of our time, really...
cg

This is exactly what I expected, also this comes as some annoyance, we where all told not to act by the Mods and now his position is a great deal stronger...like i've argued before this is not the Mods area, this is our area to sort out.

To be honest I cannot see how this situation will be resolved, more and more nations will endorse him thinking him to be legit and the very idea of a coalition to liberate the Pacific has now become impossible.

We are disheartened by this turn of events and hope that the nations of the Pacific withdraw their endorsements in sufficient numbers to elect a more democratic nation to the position of Delegate.

Anarchotopia
Urban Delegate

As it stands, there is no reasonable way for Francos Spain to legaly lose the delegacy unless he allows that to happen or simply walks away.
If there is no rule stating that a person cannot make/assist multiple attempts at taking the delegate position with new nations once the first is banned from the region (I'm not certain of how the rules address this, especially in a region such as The Pacific), I believe you would have a chance. To maintain power, Francos Spain must eject every nation which becomes a serious threat before the update - if he/she fails to do this once, then you've won. And when you consider that there are other strategies besides those which are commonly used (I can think of at least three potential methods), a series of well thought out attempts to take the delegate position should have a reasonable chance of success. From examination of the first post in the thread, it appears the moderators would allow this.

As it stands, there is no reasonable way for Francos Spain to legaly lose the delegacy unless he allows that to happen or simply walks away.
If there is no rule stating that a person cannot make/assist multiple attempts at taking the delegate position with new nations once the first is banned from the region (I'm not certain of how the rules address this, especially in a region such as The Pacific), I believe you would have a chance. To maintain power, Francos Spain must eject every nation which becomes a serious threat before the update - if he/she fails to do this once, then you've won. And when you consider that there are other strategies besides those which are commonly used (I can think of at least three potential methods), a series of well thought out attempts to take the delegate position should have a reasonable chance of success. From examination of the first post in the thread, it appears the moderators would allow this.

Francos is using a script that counts and ejects all Un Nations that aproach a certain number of endorsements. Good luck my friend.

Avenging Angel.

But, taking over a region is legal, right?
Broadly speaking, yes. I can move myself and my friends into your region and become the delegate. What I can't do is kick everyone out of the region. That's where "griefing" comes in. It's generally a fine line and the mods get a lot of requests to look at situations which may or may not be griefing.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38763

It didn't look like a script to me (although I don't think either of us has enough information to determine that at this point). However, if it is a script then there is an effective method of confirming that (and figuring out the details of how it behaves). In addition, a script would still not be completely unbeatable.

Francos is using a script that counts and ejects all Un Nations that aproach a certain number of endorsements. Good luck my friend.

Avenging Angel.

Ever hear of Judo? Using your opponent's strength against him?

Ever hear of Judo? Using your opponent's strength against him?

Already tried that. Failed miserably. The process he uses to determine who to boot isn't FULLY automated, but sufficient to make sure he's extremely unlikely to be out-played.

So, yes, if we had 200+ people with no lives willing to devote their entire presence in this game JUST to oust Francos Spain, there'd be a chance. In the real world however...

Ballotonia

It didn't look like a script to me (although I don't think either of us has enough information to determine that at this point). However, if it is a script then there is an effective method of confirming that (and figuring out the details of how it behaves). In addition, a script would still not be completely unbeatable.

I have his word for the use of that script. I didn't bother to copy it, since the mods have already stated that using of scripts is legal. I know that even scripts can be beaten, and I am aware of Judo. Followed that course for 3 years. I am preparing for an "all over assault" (which probably will be the last deed I ever do in this game), and that will be definitely decisive for my cause. From than on my nations will all die of inactivity, because I don't agree with the rules of this game any further. We all know what happens when you don't agree with the rules :cry:

Avenging Angel

Okay this is disappointing but as others have said not entirely unexpected. I'm sorry that after people were told to wait for the mods decision that the mods decision was not to do anything. As crazy's said if so many people hadn't been so well behaved during Franco's deletion he's hae lost the region.

However that said it's now over, the Pacific Army and friends are numerous but unlikely to take back the Pacific unless there is another act of god. They are numerous enough though to have a vibrant and rich large region of their own. One that can make a big contribution to many players endorsement of the game.

I don't like the Mods decision but I'd like to see all this angst recycled back into the game.

Botting is legal? No wonder the server is overloaded, specially at update time. I can picture several hundreds of scripts asking for the same pages over and over. It is almost as a denial-of-service attack. Bandwidth robbed to human players by mindless bots. Sheer idiocy.

On the other hand, I have linux, I have a server, I have perl and I have time. Be afraid. Be very afraid. And don't change the rules now.

NOW I feel like an idiot for losing my time telegraming people by hand and doing all these checks by hand. Time I could have spent programming. Botting is legal!! YAY!

To think I lost a full account in battle.net for botting. And here I am encouraged to bot. Oh well...

Woah! Hold on a minute here . .. . Scripts can be legal. All we ever said is that they are not banned outright. For example, it would be my opinion that a script written to simply maintain power by booting people with many endorsements would not be legal.

If we determine a script is being used in a fundementally unfair way, we will step in.

When I said that scripts were not necessarily banned, it was due to region hoppers, people who might be using their scripts to notify them when a new telegram came in (or a nation joined their region, or the board gets updated), to automatically post the current resolution on the board for review (I know of a few regions that do this manually). It is not permitted for griefing.


http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
[b]SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling[/b

For example, it would be my opinion that a script written to simply maintain power by booting people with many endorsements would not be legal.

Does that include scripts to tally who's endorsing who in The Pacific, who's a new entry, etc...? Or just the automation of banning? Or the combination thereof? Please be aware that scripting is an obvious powertool to use in maintaining control of a large region. Using scripts to extract al the information necessary and then manually booting whomever was indicated by the data collected doesn't make much difference either, IMHO.

[...] It is not permitted for griefing.

Well, a pacific delegate booting hundreds of nations was already ruled to be 'not griefing', so that part doesn't even apply for the feeders regions. If the limit were to be set at 40%, that would allow for about 2000 nations being booted anyway. Since there's less than 1000 UN nations in The Pacific anyway (I haven't counted this for the others), this limit shouldn't be an issue at all.

Ballotonia

Scripts are used to get an advantage over less technical players. Therefore I am oposed to the use of scripts. Therefore I decided that I don't like the rules of NationStates anymore. I will play it to attack The Pacific once more, and after that my nations will cease to exist. (This will take an awfull load of the server :wink: )

Avenging Angel.

Ok, if Francos Spain's position has solidified, then how can it be claimed that he's not the Democratically elected delegate? Obviously there are people in his region that want him there. Just because there are a number of people that dont does not mean it wasnt democratic. That's part of being in a democracy - sometimes the other side has greater numbers and they win the election.


What I'm still not understanding is why you people continue to argue the Mods' decision rather than attempt to oust Francos Spain. And of course, with approx 300+ nations ejected, why not just create your own new region? Or move to a different Pacific?




Whatever is decided to be done by those ejected, remember, it's all up to you. Arguing with the Mods will not cause our decision to be overturned, please, stop wasting your breath arguing. If you have new evidence (i.e. that of the possible scripting - no evidence, no crime) please, bring it to our attention. However, cries for pity and arguing with Mods will most decidedly do nothing for your cause.

I am not wasting anything. The decision of the mods does not matter anymore. The sentiment has set, and we allready have drawn our conclusions.
Don't tell us to stop talking about it. That is not very democratic Neut! Shutting us up, will not change anyting.

Avenging Angel.

I didnt say to shut up, I just said that arguing is not going to get you anywhere...I also mentioned that whining or attempts to gain pity will not cause anything to change...


Play the game. Adapt and overcome.

I didnt say to shut up, I just said that arguing is not going to get you anywhere...

I am not just wasting time in the forum. I have more cards in my hand, and not in my sleeve like my oponent :twisted:

Avenging Angel

maybe a dumb question, but how do you prove someone is using scripts?

Ok, if Francos Spain's position has solidified, then how can it be claimed that he's not the Democratically elected delegate?

He wasn't democratically elected. That's the interpretation you insist on making on the mechanical process of endorsement swapping. You have yet to come up with one single argument for why this interpretation would be even a remote resemblance of what is truly happening.

Ballotonia

maybe a dumb question, but how do you prove someone is using scripts?

There should be a difference between the server log of scripted players and real players, although it is theoretically possible for a very experienced programmer to mask this. Do the Mods even have access to server logs? (do they care enough to check on stuff like that?)

For a normal player to prove it could be extremely difficult. A sign to look for is if ejections are too close apart to have been done manually. But any reasonable scripter can program around basic stuff like that.

Ballotonia

mmm, well, if the mods can check this, will you please do this?

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

1). If someone were to get a screen print of the regional happens when FS boots 40+ people all in the last 60 seconds, can it be assumed he lacks the time to do so manually and therefore must be using a scrpit to ban people?

2) Can the MODS check the booted list for when the event occurs and check if FS is either using a ban script or just has the fastest hands in cyberspace?


D

Actually, tests have been run, and it takes mere seconds to delete large numbers due to the simplicity of cut and paste...


Ballotonia: you argue that the people that endorse Francos dont know any better...and yet, I am certain that every nation endorsing Francos has been informed via telegram of the situation, most likely a number of times. One would be naive indeed to truly believe the endorsers were unaware of the situation.

As for democratic elections...you do know that President Herbert Hoover was elected mostly because it was one of the first elections women could participate in, and they (not all, but most) voted for President Hoover because he was simply the better looking candidate?

mmm, does that mean you're not going to check it for us, neut?
and i don't believe that women just elect someone, just because he's better looking, on the other hand, it was in america... ;)

Ballotonia: you argue that the people that endorse Francos dont know any better...and yet, I am certain that every nation endorsing Francos has been informed via telegram of the situation, most likely a number of times. One would be naive indeed to truly believe the endorsers were unaware of the situation.

... and yet this is what some people respond to me when they write back to me telegramming them and say "I didn't know!"
Others just drop their endorsement, while (for full disclosure) I've run into a whopping two actual Francos Spain supporters as well. I started TMing only new endorsements to Francos only recently, and of those I TMed 31 dropped their endorsement. I have no idea whether the others even read my TM at all. Some of these people are only active once a week or so. Frankly, I think it's naive to presume they ARE informed about what's going on. 31 endorsement drops vs 2 actual supporters. Count in the 3 other known supporters I knew of (and hence didn't TM), and of the sample of 36 for which I now know whether they support Francos or not, his support ratio is about 14%. Scaled to his 190 endorsements that means he'd have about 26 actual supporters. Granted, some of his supporters may not have replied to me, but likewise this also goes for the non-supporters.

My conclusion: the idea that the endorsement system is an 'election' is based on false assumptions. It isn't clear to beginning players that an endorsement is essentially a vote in a continuously running election, nor that they should be careful who to endorse (for one, the FAQ doesn't even mention that delegates get access to region control and banning powers, and that's even assuming the utopian notion that beginning players immediately run to the FAQ when they start).

More imprtantly: what's the essence of the problem? The pacifics are *FEEDER* regions. The flow of new endorsers is endless, and combined with the ability to boot almost endlessly guarantees someone the sole right to endorsement-swap in those regions. These are the very regions where endorsement-swapping has the least political significance. IMHO: no political significance at all.

As such, I maintain my suggestion to disable banning in Feeder regions (all five of them).

Ballotonia

Actually, tests have been run, and it takes mere seconds to delete large numbers due to the simplicity of cut and paste...


Ballotonia: you argue that the people that endorse Francos dont know any better...and yet, I am certain that every nation endorsing Francos has been informed via telegram of the situation, most likely a number of times. One would be naive indeed to truly believe the endorsers were unaware of the situation.

As for democratic elections...you do know that President Herbert Hoover was elected mostly because it was one of the first elections women could participate in, and they (not all, but most) voted for President Hoover because he was simply the better looking candidate?

This is good information. I surely will inform every nation about the situation, when I am ready to invade. :lol: Maybe a TG with a pretty picture in it :wink:

Avenging Angel.

PS- Yes, Ballotonia, Francos was democratically elected. Fair or not, informed votes or not, two hundred people in the Pacific say he's the delegate instead of you. That == democracy.

That is all.

It was democratic when he was elected. But it stopped being a democracy when Francos Spain banned Thedoc for having more endorsements than him. I am not here whining about fair and just game play, what annoys me however is the incorrect statement about the pacific being a democracy. Call a spade a spade and say it's a dictatorship.
:idea:

Neut... you want us to stop arguing the point...

Then I ask you to stop referring to Francos as the 'Democratically elected' candidate...


According to Democracy, approx. 24 hours after Francos took the Delegacy seat from my nation I was banned... for having over 30 more endorsements than him...

My endorsements topped 400... his were in the upper 370s...


Technically speaking, I was the democratically elected candidate, and still am. He is a usurper who chose to not allow the people's voice to be heard.

He was duely elected. So was Hitler. The fact that he was duely elected does not make hm a nice guy. It does mean, however, that he did not break the game's rules. Does this take the fun out of things for some people? Sure. But this game was made to simulate real life. Real life isn't always fun, in case you didn't notice. Besides, if enough people wanted him out they could withdraw endorsements, and he would loose power. He could kick competors and it may work for some time, but eventually he would fall.

He was duely elected. So was Hitler. The fact that he was duely elected does not make hm a nice guy. It does mean, however, that he did not break the game's rules. Does this take the fun out of things for some people? Sure. But this game was made to simulate real life. Real life isn't always fun, in case you didn't notice. Besides, if enough people wanted him out they could withdraw endorsements, and he would loose power. He could kick competors and it may work for some time, but eventually he would fall.


Which is exactly my point.

I know. I was agreeing with you. :P

However, in the real world...

Nations cannot be kicked from regions, nor can they move to other areas of the globe at free will.




Nonetheless, Neut... this ruling doesn't address the issue I asked the moderators to look into. I know the moderators had previously stated that Francos' rise to power was an aspect of the game, and that was and still is being addressed by our allies...


However, the issue you said the mods would be discussing was the violation of the Mod ruling by yourself that no one should be banned for 48 hours from the Pacific Region... which was directly violated repeatedly by InfernoIce.

However, the issue you said the mods would be discussing was the violation of the Mod ruling by yourself that no one should be banned for 48 hours from the Pacific Region... which was directly violated repeatedly by InfernoIce.

I thought that this was a request as opposed to a ruling? Not positive.


Also, regarding the scripts. I'll take a look into this (actually, I already am). I have my tools.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

However, the issue you said the mods would be discussing was the violation of the Mod ruling by yourself that no one should be banned for 48 hours from the Pacific Region... which was directly violated repeatedly by InfernoIce.


Was there not also movement of nations into the region in the same time frame?

Nation with more votes = UN Delegate = Democracy

That one is easy. So, yes, FS was democratically elected.

NOW, the point of REAL democracy is keeping that Delegacy without kicking out the opposition. Be better and more popular.

Kick Threats off region = NOT Democracy = Dictatorship

That one SHOULD be equally easy. And clear.

Hitler was also democratically elected. It was needed WWII to kick him from power. Parallels, parallels... So much death for one man. Back to programming. Keep in mind WWII. Friendly fire, collateral damage. Pity. Only way.

Oh, I also TGed all of Francos' endorsers, here is the text:


Hello! I am a country that tried to run for UN delegate for the Pacific Region. As soon as I reached the 100-endorsement mark I was banned from the region by the power-hungry delegate. If you happen to read a previous message from me, asking for your endorsement, don't bother. I no longer can be Delegate.

As the Ban list is not visible, you might not be aware that there are hundreds of banned nations right now.

So, as it is impossible to achieve the status of Delegate with Francos Spain in charge, I ask you withdraw any endorsement you happen to have for him. But doing just that won't be enough. He has three, that I know of, backup delegates, easily visible because the are in the 100-endorsements mark. These nation names are: InfernoIce, Evilistocia and Poskrebyshev.

I'd like also invite you to have a regular look at the regional board, as sometimes you can see "enlightening" evidence of Francos and associates behaviour.

Thanks for your patience, and I hope the current situation can be resolved.


I made a mistake in the TG. Correct it. The backup delegates have less that 100 votes, but are quite high in endorsements (low not to trigger the script or to be fallback in case of massive unendorsement?). At the very least, Evilistocia and InfernoIce have openly supported FS's actions in the regional board. Also I saw [deleted name] threaten someone into endorsing FS, but could not make the other nation endorse him. No proof. Pity. Not said. Posky seems the silent type. There is also what I suspect is a puppet of one of them, can't rememeber the whole name but it starts with Bert. He is the reason Lady Chelsea was kicked. Ask her. Kaiburr told me. He was with them. Called Bert Franco's minion. Bert aquiesces.

EDIT: No accusing without proof. That is not done.

My only question is that if your decision is to take no action, why did you reinstate Francos Spain along with all of his endorsements?

I still think this is horrible business to allow this to happen in a feeder region. With every person that signs up on this game, sees what is going on and never plays again, that is one less potential customer for the book. Isn't that what this game is here for anyway? It took me a few weeks of gameplay to even read about the book. Long time players will have a more negative view of Max Barry as a result of this, which could impact sales as well. Is this worth it?

Woah! Hold on a minute here . .. . Scripts can be legal. All we ever said is that they are not banned outright. For example, it would be my opinion that a script written to simply maintain power by booting people with many endorsements would not be legal.

Automating a blacklist of people to be kicked is almost the same as making the bot kick them. You get in at update time minus 5 minutes with 250 UN nations and at update time minus 2 you are all banned. Unfair. Impossible.

If we determine a script is being used in a fundamentally unfair way, we will step in.

All scripts are unfair or none are. Humans versus cyborg (half script-half human) versus bots. Been there, done that. Lost a Battle.net account. Conclusion: all are.

If you need scripts, you are way over your capabilities. Pause a little. Erase some nations.

When I said that scripts were not necessarily banned, it was due to region hoppers, people who might be using their scripts to notify them when a new telegram came in (or a nation joined their region, or the board gets updated), to automatically post the current resolution on the board for review (I know of a few regions that do this manually). It is not permitted for griefing.


How many updates per minute? per second? How many times the server is rebuilding the whole regional page (worldfact book + UN list + event log + regional board) to obtain that info? how many SQL accesses? You (the server) don't pay bandwidth usage, do you?

So, how many scripts are in use right now? May be they increase at update time?

Perl. Linux users better armed to play NS. Heh. Linux rules again.

It seems rather pointless to keep complaining to the moderators about this, when you can (re)take the delegate position by yourselves, script or no script. You're just not thinking about this in the right way. The Most Glorious Hack has already provided some hints which you apparently haven't paid enough attention to, and knowing that any nation with a certain number of endorsements will be ejected should be enough. Are you aware of the saying "hoist with one's own petard"?

God, all this whining is making me want to make a UN puppet just to endorse Francos Spain, to show support to the mods on this issue.

I should have brought this up earlier, but nevertheless I believe that some of the basic reasoning behind this ruling has flaws. Namely, the statement that Francos is not an invader because he acquired his position through endorsement-trading.

The fact is, over the past four months or so, region-crashers have declined in numbers. Not in audacity or intelligence, but merely numbers. What did they do about it? For the most part we're too proud to have mergers between groups. Recruiting has been stepped up across the board by most organizations, but that isn't filling the gap. So, as a result, endorsement-trading among invaders has risen in frequency to fill these gaps. Some examples (I may have some details off):

Pacific Army v. Empire of Power (August)

A PA member entered the Empire of Power home region and sent every UN member (except Mattatonn, of course) a request to trade endorsements, as well as his (her?) own endorsement. By the following day, the PA member had become Delegate, and thanked all those who had endorsed them, and left, satisfied at having embarassed the EOP.

ACC v. RRA (June)

Shortly after the ejection of Gres, Delegate of the Rejected Realsm, from the UN, the nation of MrNonchalant, a member of the Atlantic invader group, entered the Rejected Realms, spamming the regional happenings with a puppet to hide his arrival, and sent every Rejected Realms UN member endorsement-exchange telegrams and his endorsement. With no clear leadership in the region, he became Delegate. Only about a half-dozen of his endorsers were members of the Atlantic invader group. He eventually left (As I can attest, being trapped in the Rejected Realms for all eternity can get to you)

Delphina v. InfernoIce

After the deletion of Francos Spain, the nation of Delphina ran for the Delegacy of the Pacific. She sent every UN member endorsement-trading messages and her endorsement, and acquired about 70 before the update. About a dozen of these were members of the South Pacific's regional government.

Yucca v. 000 (I'm not sure exactly when this happened)

The nation of Yucca entered the region of 000, and sent endorsement-exchange messages and endorsements to all members of the region. Once he became Delegate, he ejected and banned the previous Delegate. Eventually Arabian Dark (Also known as Louldamin or Evans) displaced him, with help from New Meritocracy forces.


All had someone enter the region and immediately begin sending out endorsement-trading messages, becoming Delegate while still new ot the region. All had hidden agendas and an intent to take over the region. (Well, the PA v. EOP one was more of a raid). All had mere skeleton crews of actual members of their organization, or none at all. Perhaps I should use the old imagery of your region as a house: A burglar is still a burglar and he's still trying to take your stuff, regardless of whether he breaks your door's hinges off with a sledgehammer or gives your 5-year-old kid candy if they'll open the door for him at 11:30 PM.

This strategy of actual troop movements taking second fiddle to exploiting the masses of people who want any endorsement is, in fact, the only path that any sane modern region-crasher can take. It would be madness to simply charge into a Pacific or any large region at all with the small sizes of invader groups today, and indeed nobody's been suicidal enough to try for three months. The unthinking acquisition of endorsements through endorsement-exchange is the wave of the future for invader groups or individual invaders, and I feel that it's time that the rules reflected this fact.

How many updates per minute? per second? How many times the server is rebuilding the whole regional page (worldfact book + UN list + event log + regional board) to obtain that info? how many SQL accesses? You (the server) don't pay bandwidth usage, do you?

Mine averaged over 2.5 requests a second, when i region hopped. Look, at the moment scripts are not posing a significant problem to the server, and we will reevaluate when the time comes.

As far as the other scripts go . . . if they are brought to our attention, we look into them.

It seems rather pointless to keep complaining to the moderators about this, when you can (re)take the delegate position by yourselves, script or no script. You're just not thinking about this in the right way. The Most Glorious Hack has already provided some hints which you apparently haven't paid enough attention to, and knowing that any nation with a certain number of endorsements will be ejected should be enough. Are you aware of the saying "hoist with one's own petard"?

I was attempting to hint at the same thing...Francos Spain may have achieved the Delegacy in an under-handed, but legal, manner...nothing says you all cant do the same.

After much deliberation, the Mod Squad and Admin have reached the conclusion that the best course of action is to take no action. In other words, no Moderator intervention at this time is necessary, and the players involved are encouraged to play through the situation.

It is not the position of the Moderators, nor the Administrators, of this site to dictate political happenings in a region. Francos Spain was duly elected to the position of Delegate by his peers, and although his actions might seem immoral, they are within the bounds of the rules set forth for this game and are therefore not cause for Moderator intervention. Political coups happen quite often in Real Life, and former political leaders, their allies, and percieved threats - real or not - are often desposed in the manner Francos Spain desposed Thedoc, his allies, and percieved threats.

So when Francos Spain is desposed in a sneaky, underhanded way and permanently banned, along with all of his supporters and pupperts, you mods won't do jack about it being invaders who have deposed him? After all, it's just a political coup....

So when Francos Spain is desposed in a sneaky, underhanded way and permanently banned, along with all of his supporters and pupperts, you mods won't do jack about it being invaders who have deposed him? After all, it's just a political coup....

So long as you don't start booting a boatload of people. And technically, Francos can't be left on the ban list- however, once another delegate has control, the ban list could be cleared, bringing in more support against Francos. His endorsements have plummeted, and if Thedoc's supporters are all back in and endorsing him, Francos likely wouldn't have a chance of taking the delegacy back. (Plus, there are perfectly legal, if underhanded, ways to keep somebody from collecting endorsements without banning them. Tactics and timing...)

In addition, it is possible to organize a counterattack. I've had to answer another player's questions because they want to be 100% clear on what they can and can't do. I've been asked not to share any more information, but from what I've been told, it's virtually foolproof.

Mods...


I ask you to lock discussion on this topic at this point. You have indeed made your decision, and whether or not I agree with it, I will abide by it and adapt.


Oh, and Salusa, from the text itself, the 'request' was made by Neut to not move into the region, but since we had already moved many nations in before that statement... Neut did then ammend his comments to state that 'No bans would be allowed' during that 48 hour period he chose to impose.

I did not ask the mods to discuss this issue regarding Francos Spain, we've been at work regarding a takeover... but I asked the mods to look into possible violations of the game by InfernoIce... since he was the delegate who then banned at least 40 nations when taking over at reset... which... according to Neut's statements... the no movements was a request... and the no bans allowed was a ruling.


In conclusion, I've moved on and will be back to the implementation step of our plans, since this ruling was just a reiteration of what had been stated originally, and did not address the specific issues I brought up previously.


Sincerely,
The Allied States of Thedoc

just woke up and decided to check on the forum...
wasn't as bad as i expected ;)
was expecting a lot more posts...
well, all i wanted to say, was, salusa, thank you for checking those scripts out ;)

He was duely elected. So was Hitler. The fact that he was duely elected does not make hm a nice guy. It does mean, however, that he did not break the game's rules. Does this take the fun out of things for some people? Sure. But this game was made to simulate real life. Real life isn't always fun, in case you didn't notice. Besides, if enough people wanted him out they could withdraw endorsements, and he would loose power. He could kick competors and it may work for some time, but eventually he would fall.


Which is exactly my point.

Man I hate when I agree with Neut :twisted: . But really, both Neut and Cspella are correct on this. You guys voted him into power. He was democratcly elected. What you didn't know what that elections were going to stop as soon as he was UN DEL. So really, you voted in a dictator. Unfortunelly that means that the only way to go in and enforce democracy is to use force. Good luck. If you need any help or suggestions, feel free to contact an invader not in the pacific (ahem).

I would like to see you suceed, so good luck.

God, all this whining is making me want to make a UN puppet just to endorse Francos Spain, to show support to the mods on this issue.

I'm sorry, but that is freaking hillarious.

All the energy spent talking about it not being fair, could be used to try and combine forces to take the region over.

Mods...


I ask you to lock discussion on this topic at this point. You have indeed made your decision, and whether or not I agree with it, I will abide by it and adapt.


Mods will always do as they want, but I do hope they don't lock this. It seems to me this issue is larger then just you, Thedoc, so it seems better to have thios one thread open for dicussion rather then needing others for others in your region to disclose how they feel on it.

Not sure what it would serve by locking, why you would want it locked, or of a lot of other things, but just wanted to ring in my 2 cents.

As for democratic elections...you do know that President Herbert Hoover was elected mostly because it was one of the first elections women could participate in, and they (not all, but most) voted for President Hoover because he was simply the better looking candidate?

Actually, that was Harding in 1920. The main reason that Hoover beat Al Smith in 1928 was because Smith was a catholic.

....yeah, because the United States Congress doesnt play the vote-swap game at all, so it cant be in politics...

what does that comment have to do with the discussion at hand?

why assume we're all us players? are you certain this exists in all countries?

so the game is playing by american political rules... fabulous. :roll:
well that's good to know and i will keep it in mind as i play.

offended by your words.

Let's bribe the wole lot, that will teach em :)

So when Francos Spain is desposed in a sneaky, underhanded way and permanently banned, along with all of his supporters and pupperts, you mods won't do jack about it being invaders who have deposed him? After all, it's just a political coup....

So long as you don't start booting a boatload of people.

300+ nations is not a "boatload"? Keep that in mind, people. There are regions with way less people. If these nations were people, you could fill quite an auditorium with them. I could sink a boat under that load of people.

I really feel that the ban rule should be changed to "40% of the nations in a region OR XX nations, whichever is LESS". XX= any arbitrary number (say 100, 200, 300... the lower the number, the more regions will be protected from similar fates, and it would protect feeder regions from this happening again). But that is a mod rule, not a normal player rule.

The way it is now, someone can get UND in a 1000 nation region and kick up to 400 without problems. But if XX=100, on the 101 ban, he is in trouble. XX should be small enough to protect a big region, but high enough to let the UND massban large groups of invaders.

And technically, Francos can't be left on the ban list- however, once another delegate has control, the ban list could be cleared, bringing in more support against Francos.

"Technically" I am still on the ban list. And I suppose Thedoc still is too. So "Technically" FS is raping your rules. Or do you mean that the "technical" rule means "Francos can't be left on the ban list" is a different rule than "Thedoc can't be left on the ban list" or "Evil Sith can't be left on the ban list". I just made a one-name change in the rule. It seems differently applied. I only have to look if I am still banned. Technically, of course.

Another point. I repeat you MUST make a special case of the Pacifics. In any other region, FS would have been kicked long ago by the (unexistant in the Pacifics) founder. This problem couldn't have happened. Ever. It could have been dealt with (or approved) LONG AGO at Founder level. no need to reach mods there. BUT the Pacifics have no FOUNDER to address that problem. If a Founder ruled "All right, way to go" to FS actions, the rest of us just had the option of leaving the region, as the Region Owner had declared his actions OK. Tough for us.

God, all this whining is making me want to make a UN puppet just to endorse Francos Spain, to show support to the mods on this issue.

I'm sorry, but that is freaking hillarious.

All the energy spent talking about it not being fair, could be used to try and combine forces to take the region over.

Egads, I agree with Ackbar.

Quit bitching and take back the damned region.

I did not ask the mods to discuss this issue regarding Francos Spain, we've been at work regarding a takeover... but I asked the mods to look into possible violations of the game by InfernoIce... since he was the delegate who then banned at least 40 nations when taking over at reset... which... according to Neut's statements... the no movements was a request... and the no bans allowed was a ruling.

Let me explain it this way. The bans were a result of the disregard for my request. Therefore BOTH sides are at fault, and as far as I'm concerned both sides are even.

In the future, I would hope that players are not so quick to disregard a Mod's request simply because it is only a request. Doing so would force us to become quite a bit more authoritarian in nature, and I highly doubt that anyone desires such to occur...



Actually, that was Harding in 1920. The main reason that Hoover beat Al Smith in 1928 was because Smith was a catholic.

Whoops :oops:, the point remains - leaders arent always elected for their political stances...



....yeah, because the United States Congress doesnt play the vote-swap game at all, so it cant be in politics...


what does that comment have to do with the discussion at hand?

why assume we're all us players? are you certain this exists in all countries?

so the game is playing by american political rules... fabulous.
well that's good to know and i will keep it in mind as i play.

offended by your words.

Quite frankly, you need to read the previous posts. It was argued that vote-swapping is not a legitimate political tool, and this was my response.

If you are so foolish as to believe that there is a single democratic/republic government in the world that doesnt pass laws by vote-swapping, then I really doubt it matters if you are offended my EXAMPLE or not.

Just because I used the US Congress as an example in no way means that I believe NS politics should operate in the exact same manner as US politics...if that were the case, we would all be corrupt adulterous men and women prepared to do just about anything to keep ourselves in power...but we're not getting into all that ;)

As much as we'd like to quit whining and take back the region on our own, this is impossible if Francos is using a script that bans all who are over a certain number. Is he?

(I hope I'm not sounding rude here. It certainly isn't my intention, but I come off that way unintentionally quite often)

Kandarin, this takes time. I will look into it, but don't expect an answer for possibly several days.

And technically, Francos can't be left on the ban list- however, once another delegate has control, the ban list could be cleared, bringing in more support against Francos.

"Technically" I am still on the ban list. And I suppose Thedoc still is too. So "Technically" FS is raping your rules. Or do you mean that the "technical" rule means "Francos can't be left on the ban list" is a different rule than "Thedoc can't be left on the ban list" or "Evil Sith can't be left on the ban list". I just made a one-name change in the rule. It seems differently applied. I only have to look if I am still banned. Technically, of course.

I've conferred with another mod on this:

The ejections committed by Francos Spain were actions completely internal to "The Pacific": native against native (at the time the action was committed). Actions taken to retake the Delegacy of "The Pacific" are invader against native (at the time that any action to retake the Delegacy starts). Hence, different rules apply.

The fact that the invaders were former natives banned by a native Delegate is irrelevant.

I recommend that those who want to see Francos Spain replaced mount a legal invasion to accomplish this.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Forum Moderator

Ok, if Francos Spain's position has solidified, then how can it be claimed that he's not the Democratically elected delegate? Obviously there are people in his region that want him there. Just because there are a number of people that dont does not mean it wasnt democratic. That's part of being in a democracy - sometimes the other side has greater numbers and they win the election.

Because he kicks all opponents out? Nations in which opponents to the leader are not allowed to run are generally seen as non-democratic no matter what other trappings of democracy they may have.

Because he kicks all opponents out? Nations in which opponents to the leader are not allowed to run are generally seen as non-democratic no matter what other trappings of democracy they may have.

You still havent refuted my point that if the people of the region are still supporting him then obviously he's still the people's choice (and yes, his endorsers are aware of the situation. I'm sure they've been deluged with telegrams informing them of the situation - many times over, probably bordering on spam at this point).

Maybe the current leader is not the choice of the people complaining, but he's still the people's choice. What's important is that you realize that in a democratic political race there is a winner and a loser. Just because you dont support the winner doesnt make his/her win any less valid a democratic election ;)

But no one can come near him,if he had only 20 endorsements and ejected anyone who got over 10 he'd still be in power

But 20 endorsements would make it easier to invade, no?

We're not talking about 20 endorsements, we're talking 200. That's 200 players that support Francos Spain's actions in their region. They continue to vote for him, thus, he remains the power in the region. Find a way around it ;)

eh....I don't live their...at least not since my puppet was banned...hel'll probably get bored and quit the game in a few months

Kandarin, this takes time. I will look into it, but don't expect an answer for possibly several days.

Thank you for what you're doing. I hope you find the truth.

Because he kicks all opponents out? Nations in which opponents to the leader are not allowed to run are generally seen as non-democratic no matter what other trappings of democracy they may have.

You still havent refuted my point that if the people of the region are still supporting him then obviously he's still the people's choice (and yes, his endorsers are aware of the situation.

I don't see the relevance. Francos Spain has some support yes, but any famous person will have some support. "People's choice" implies a choice. The only choice the nations of the Pacific have been given is whether to support Francos Spain or not, and many have not. How can be the "people's choice" when the majority of people have not chosen him?


I'm sure they've been deluged with telegrams informing them of the situation - many times over, probably bordering on spam at this point).

A previous poster mentioned people dropping their endorsements upon being telegrammed, which suggests that some (many?) of his endorsers may not have known about the situation. Furthermore some of his endorsers may not be reading their telegrams. I have no idea how many, do you?


Maybe the current leader is not the choice of the people complaining, but he's still the people's choice. What's important is that you realize that in a democratic political race there is a winner and a loser. Just because you dont support the winner doesnt make his/her win any less valid a democratic election ;)
There has not been a democratic political race in the Pacific for a couple weeks. I have explained why not (opponents not allowed in the Pacific). You imply that I am calling Francos Spain being elected each night undemocratic because I don't like the results. I deny that and return the favour: I assert that you are committed to defending the elections as democratic because you like the results.

I've made a proposal to the UN that I think should be a way around an invasion. The resolution calls for ousting Francos Spain as delegate. I don't believe this is a violation of UN protocol, as all that will be done from a game standpoint is to either remove him from the UN or remove his endorsements.

Regardless, check it out and tell me what you think

This is in violation of UN protocol.

Thanks Hack and Neut. I was thinking about it all wrong. I saw that point before but it went ZIP right over my so thick skull. You guys are the greatest. Hopefully the others will catch on, too.

As a member of the delegate I would like to know what must and what can we do to get rid of this ban list of users.....whoever has endorsed these regions must withdraw theirs and return the pacific to where it belongs :evil:

God, all this whining is making me want to make a UN puppet just to endorse Francos Spain, to show support to the mods on this issue.

I'm sorry, but that is freaking hillarious.

All the energy spent talking about it not being fair, could be used to try and combine forces to take the region over.

Egads, I agree with Ackbar.

Quit bitching and take back the damned region.

I have personally volunteered to help a couple of regions if desired, so don't let it be said that you don't have anyone with experience offering to help.

These people seem organized. I haven't seen such an organized attempt on the forums since the last WHO SHOULD BE MOD poll (sorry I don't trust any of these, I think even The Belmundez at least had to have some co-ordination to get his/her/their 7 votes). Look how many nations with like 3 total posts have posted on this thread, as well as the other Franocs threads. EIther people are propping their points up in the forums with puppets, or The Pacific people are able to co-ordinate offsite. If they are, then planning an invasion should not be out of order for them, they simply have to be smart. I just think it is a partial issue of re-directing facilities.

As much as we'd like to quit whining and take back the region on our own, this is impossible if Francos is using a script that bans all who are over a certain number. Is he?

(I hope I'm not sounding rude here. It certainly isn't my intention, but I come off that way unintentionally quite often)

I know mods are looking into this, but I really don't think he is. Or rather, if he is I will be damned impressed. I have seen a belly-full of scripts to give game info, but have not seen one to actually affect the game.

You know, some take-over attempts could help prove this, if you plan right. Not conclusively, but could at least aid in this...

Because he kicks all opponents out? Nations in which opponents to the leader are not allowed to run are generally seen as non-democratic no matter what other trappings of democracy they may have.

You still havent refuted my point that if the people of the region are still supporting him then obviously he's still the people's choice (and yes, his endorsers are aware of the situation. I'm sure they've been deluged with telegrams informing them of the situation - many times over, probably bordering on spam at this point).

Maybe the current leader is not the choice of the people complaining, but he's still the people's choice. What's important is that you realize that in a democratic political race there is a winner and a loser. Just because you dont support the winner doesnt make his/her win any less valid a democratic election ;)


Excellent point NS. A cry far from invading it to take it back, if this DEL was a problem shouldn't the region simply stop supporting him?

I've made a proposal to the UN that I think should be a way around an invasion. The resolution calls for ousting Francos Spain as delegate. I don't believe this is a violation of UN protocol, as all that will be done from a game standpoint is to either remove him from the UN or remove his endorsements.

Regardless, check it out and tell me what you think

Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

i wuold vote against such a proposal. may the un never be given that power.

Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

Well, geez, most of the European nations did when they were world powers and so does America. Seriously, again, I find myself in agreement with all your posts on this topic. Bah. *grin*

I object to use of the term 'supporters' here. Those endorsements were given by mainly newbies through endorsement swapping. They do not constitute an expression of support for his nation, his policies, or anything else for that matter.

I haven't been following this controversy for very long -- maybe about 2 weeks -- so correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, quite a few of the nations that have endorsed FS are not only active (Cogitation did an analysis of this and I also looked at many of them), but, based on their population size, could hardly be called n00bs.

I find this really interesting because it relates directly to one of the NS issues, "Should Voting Be Compulsory." One has only to look at the results of the elections in the US on all political levels to realize that democracy is no guarantee that the electorate will make the choice that is in their best interests.

Or, to draw another analogy, Romania kicked out their leader. Myanmar still has theirs.

Actually, that was Harding in 1920. The main reason that Hoover beat Al Smith in 1928 was because Smith was a catholic.

Whoops :oops:, the point remains - leaders arent always elected for their political stances...

Agreed.

Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

No, but I think the UN should be given power over who it recognizes as a Delegate. Francos Spain's region, and his number of endorsements cause him to be like a Security Council member in the real UN. In the real UN, Delegates to the Security Council must be elected by the General Assembly.

Further, membership in the UN is regulated by Chapter II of the UN charter. The UN can suspend or revoke membership in the organization through a vote. As Francos Spain's "power" comes through his UN seat (and the powers running with it, i.e. the power to ban), the UN would be acting to reduce the powers of one of its members, which is something that the Charter provides for.

Further, the Charter explicitly states that the General Assembly has the right and power to suggest this to the Security Council (Article 11).

Also related, Article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that no one should be subject to arbitrary exile.

And anyway, why can't the NS UN choose its membership, especially at the highest and most powerful level? Or at least have a resolution for it.

There are lots of differences between the real-world United Nations and the NationStates version thereof.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I tihnk that you'll find that the Charter of The United Nations (can be found somewhere at http://www.un.org )has almost no bearing whatsoever on how the NS UN works.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

I hear the same thing from both Mods and game players.

We the game players have tried to oust Franco..but because of the scripting or whatever tool he uses to manage the region this has made ousting him impossable.

How to correct this...simple remove the Ban function on feeder regions. The nation in charge can eject but can not ban.

and would allow all sorts of grief in theose regions...

what would you do with abusive people?

i dont' think that's the way.

oh, and neut. I had read those previous posts. the opinion was formed after reading everything in the thread thus far.

i find your tone most curious.

Thats what the Get Help page and the Mod's or for.

I do think your right the Delegates for those regions would get a real work out. But thats the only thing I can think of.

I mean if I eject as much as Franco..geezz I would been deleted a long time ago.

Heres a question...
What the difference?
Franco ejecting opposition and having a bunch of endorsements. (oh he's not a native either)
Or an invader, crashing a region having a bunch of endorsements and ejecting the opposition.

Answear none.
Both acheive and hold power the same way.

I just reliezed something..when I started I started off in The Pacific, then moved to the Reaches of Solaris. SO I'm native right?

I mean if I eject as much as Franco..geezz I would been deleted a long time ago.

You're in a region much smaller than The Pacific. Although I'm not sure if the Game Moderators are enforcing a specific percentage rule, the number of nations that a native Delegate may ban is relative to the number of nations in the region. The Pacific has 4,694 nations in it (as of the time of this post), so Francos would have to ban many more nations before we would officially see it as a problem.

Heres a question...
What the difference?
Franco ejecting opposition and having a bunch of endorsements. (oh he's not a native either)
Or an invader, crashing a region having a bunch of endorsements and ejecting the opposition.

Answear none.
Both acheive and hold power the same way.

Our official opinion is that Francos is native. So, that's the difference right there.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

although i've been in the game since april, i have a question.

what is considred a 'native'?

thanks. :)

Native = defender of a region that was present in the region at the time an invasion was begun.

Invader = anyone else at time of invasion - whether friendly with the Natives or not.



See, Freemon, as Cog stated, there is a large difference between an outsider entering a region, taking the position of Delegate, then ejecting large numbers of players and a nation coming up through the internal ranks, reaching the position of Delegate, then ejecting puppets of the same 50-100 players (including those created to pad the numbers of banned nations ;) - yes, we know about that) in a political coup.

An invasion is most definately not an internal regime change, thus, the rules are different.

Any script can be beaten easily. I have a foolproof plan to beat a script that counts UN endorcements and automaticly eject people at a certain number. My only problem is, that I need about 300 soldiers who have almost no life and don't mind doing alot of boring work. If perfect it can easily crash this server, but than again; There is no such thing as a perfect plan that involves humans :P
I need 300+ soldiers who can regularily report for duty, but I wonder if The Pacific is really that important :P

and what about those hapless little nations created after the invasion? i assume they are considered native?

thanks for the quick responses. :)

and what about those hapless little nations created after the invasion? i assume they are considered native?

thanks for the quick responses. :)

every nation in the region when invasion happens is a native and should be treated with respect!

naturally.

i am simply asking questions about the status of nations created since the invasion two (?) weeks ago. are they now considered native?

naturally.

i am simply asking questions about the status of nations created since the invasion two (?) weeks ago. are they now considered native?

Sure they are native, but what's the problem? Did he get ejected? :? From The Pacific? In that case you are on your own. The Pacific is a "Feeder Region". Nations are suposed to swarm out and mingle :P . See Francos as a father, that sees that you are to old to stay at home. He ejects you from his home, so you can find a job and a place of your own :lol:

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Father?? eee gad.

The gene-pool needs to have some bleach added.

Father?? eee gad.

The gene-pool needs to have some bleach added.

Haha, maybe in your case Francos is mother :twisted:

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Neutered Sputniks wrote:
See, Freemon, as Cog stated, there is a large difference between an outsider entering a region, taking the position of Delegate, then ejecting large numbers of players and a nation coming up through the internal ranks, reaching the position of Delegate, then ejecting puppets of the same 50-100 players (including those created to pad the numbers of banned nations - yes, we know about that) in a political coup.

An invasion is most definately not an internal regime change, thus, the rules are different.


I see your point. Still I think there should be a point were Franco ejects one to many.

Neutered Sputniks wrote:
See, Freemon, as Cog stated, there is a large difference between an outsider entering a region, taking the position of Delegate, then ejecting large numbers of players and a nation coming up through the internal ranks, reaching the position of Delegate, then ejecting puppets of the same 50-100 players (including those created to pad the numbers of banned nations - yes, we know about that) in a political coup.

An invasion is most definately not an internal regime change, thus, the rules are different.


I see your point. Still I think there should be a point were Franco ejects one to many.

That "One to many" will be when he ejects himself :lol:

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Corinthe wrote;
Haha, maybe in your case Francos is mother.

___________________________________________________

Oh that wasn't right.. :evil:

Corinthe wrote;
Haha, maybe in your case Francos is mother.

___________________________________________________

Oh that wasn't right.. :evil:

no offence meant :oops:

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lol

None taken.... just a bad visual :shock:

lol

None taken.... just a bad visual :shock:

I understand that :twisted: Imagine :?

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I have a off topic question.

What is Game time compaired to centeral US time?

Or What time is game reset?

I have a off topic question.

What is Game time compaired to centeral US time?

Or What time is game reset?

it is a secret, but this is a technical question, you are wrong here.

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I see your point. Still I think there should be a point were Franco ejects one to many.

There is a point that a natural regime change goes to far. But, simply calling out that 300 nations have been ejected does not mean it's gone to far. A large percentage of the ejected nations are puppets that were created by previously ejected nations to enter the Pacific and post on the regional board (spam, in some cases), grief (in some cases), or in a blatant attempt to overload the ban-list or have the Mods take action against Francos for excessive ejections. Thus, not all the ejections truly count against Francos.

We the game players have tried to oust Franco..but because of the scripting or whatever tool he uses to manage the region this has made ousting him impossable.
Using a script doesn't make defeating him impossible, it just moves his weaknesses around (to an angle which not many people think of, it seems).
Any script can be beaten easily. I have a foolproof plan to beat a script that counts UN endorcements and automaticly eject people at a certain number. My only problem is, that I need about 300 soldiers who have almost no life and don't mind doing alot of boring work. If perfect it can easily crash this server, but than again; There is no such thing as a perfect plan that involves humans :P
I need 300+ soldiers who can regularily report for duty, but I wonder if The Pacific is really that important :P
It sounds like this person has the right idea, although if it's the same plan I'm thinking of then I wouldn't say it's foolproof. However, it's fairly likely to succeed - certainly more effective than the more conventional methods.

in that case it's time to get organized.

oh and to find out what time the game resets, do what i did and stay up.

Good bye everyone. After having seen how the Moderators run things here at NationStates, I no longer have any interest to play this game. The situation in the pacific has shown that the mods would rather make a dictator happy than an entire region happy.

Good bye. From Alpha, Dragefolket, Dragefolken, OmegaSupreme, and Tango Sierra.


Tango Sierra Mods! You do a bad job and are free to delete my nations.

You guys keep saying take it back.
One problem, Franco eject then bans anyone who even ooks like they are trying. Getting 200 or 300 nations to jump in is a logistical nightmare, not to mention he will start ejecting as soon as 2 more start coming in.

So you see when you give him all the cards and the NUKE button it makes it real hard to even start anything. Thats my point.

Good bye everyone. After having seen how the Moderators run things here at NationStates, I no longer have any interest to play this game. The situation in the pacific has shown that the mods would rather make a dictator happy than an entire region happy.

Good bye. From Alpha, Dragefolket, Dragefolken, OmegaSupreme, and Tango Sierra.


Tango Sierra Mods! You do a bad job and are free to delete my nations.

Farewell random person who nobody really knows, has one post, and joined this month. It surely is a loss to suffer someone who's been here for almost a week.

Good bye everyone. After having seen how the Moderators run things here at NationStates, I no longer have any interest to play this game. The situation in the pacific has shown that the mods would rather make a dictator happy than an entire region happy.

Good bye. From Alpha, Dragefolket, Dragefolken, OmegaSupreme, and Tango Sierra.


Tango Sierra Mods! You do a bad job and are free to delete my nations.

Farewell random person who nobody really knows, has one post, and joined this month. It surely is a loss to suffer someone who's been here for almost a week.

i believe he mentioned his nations: Alpha, Dragefolket, Dragefolken, OmegaSupreme, and Tango Sierra.
i do know dragefolket..

You guys keep saying take it back.
One problem, Franco eject then bans anyone who even ooks like they are trying.That's the point - whether it's scripted or not, that is a weakness as much as a strength.
Getting 200 or 300 nations to jump in is a logistical nightmare, not to mention he will start ejecting as soon as 2 more start coming in.
You don't have to send nations in all at once (or even at all, if it becomes that bad). It's a start region, so you can try to generate nations there if that's what it takes.

That's the point - whether it's scripted or not, that is a weakness as much as a strength.

Putting a script on auto to simply boot anyone who is above X endorsements is something that can easily circumvented. It has been tried. It has failed, because that's not how The Pacific is being kept under control.

Biggest ejecting scenario is that Francos Spain simply boots all UN members in the Pacific who do not endorse him. That's about 700 nations. From the discussion I've seen this seems to be perfectly legal. That puts the minimum requirement of overtaking The Pacific at an invasion army of 200 nations able to jump into the region in the last minute before the server update, barring Francos making gross errors or just walking away.

To make any battle in a game (requiring 200 people to overtake 1) that severely slanted in favor of one player is IMHO a design flaw. Please note this concept applies to all the pacifics, not just the one currently being discussed. If Francos were to walk away tomorrow, the problem in game design would still be there.

Ballotonia

To make any battle in a game (requiring 200 people to overtake 1) that severely slanted in favor of one player is IMHO a design flaw.

No, it's seige-craft.

Just like invading a keep required vastly more people than it takes to defend, the same goes for taking a region, any region, from an active Delegate. Granted, everything has scaled up, as it's a large region, but the fact still remains that you need an overwhealming force to topple someone who has the defensive edge.

This isn't a design flaw. The mechanics that make defending against invaders easier, makes it easier for FSpain to defend himself.

Oh, and, once again, you didn't need superior numbers when you had superior tactics, such as sappers.

No, it's seige-craft.

Wasn't the theme supposed to be representatives from nations fighting in a political arena? Surely there's a defensive edge (incumbancy), but isn't 200 to 1 a tad absurd?!?

Ballotonia

It's not 200 to 1. Besides his henchmen, I believe Francos Spain does have a number of "real" supporters.

I'm sure he does. However I beleive many of those 196 endorsements were either cohersed or endorse-swapping (which is legal).

Well anyway, I think the ban function should be removed from all freeder regions since they can mass ban and not get into hot water.

If someone can figure a way, I can promise 50 plus nations to could fight Franco. Course I can't..I already got banned :oops: :cry:

It's not 200 to 1. Besides his henchmen, I believe Francos Spain does have a number of "real" supporters.

Actually, game technically they don't matter much to the point I'm making. Say he has 25 actual supporters, and that they'd leave right now. That would still leave 175 to 1. What I see as the problem in the Pacifics particularly is that the amount of votes due to blind vote-swapping is so big that in combination with the ability to claim an exclusive right to that vote-swapping (by banning all others who are doing this) the incumbant has an enormous advantage entirely regardless of political stance. He could RP shooting babies and it wouldn't make any real difference.

As long as the advantage this gives is relatively small, it can be overcome by other means. For Feeder regions with a size of thousands of nations it's IMHO a preposterous advantage. 10 to 1 is pretty normal. 25 to 1 is already a solid advantage, but can be overcome by a well organized force. 50 to 1 starts to get really difficult, but is still manageable with a lot of extra effort. At 100 to 1 severe problems start in the game as it currently is. We're well beyond that point in all five pacifics.

Ballotonia

Hey heres an idea...

Don't give delegates in Feeder regions access to regional controls.

Hey heres an idea...

Don't give delegates in Feeder regions access to regional controls.

I like that idea. Although I'm a newbie, I read and heard all things about pacific, and I think there is a good reason for that. MODS, what do you think about that?

Hey heres an idea...

Don't give delegates in Feeder regions access to regional controls.

Any other reason beside the fact that said regions are big?

No?

Ah...

Well no,
Just think
they can't be invaded
they can't be taken over by dictators
even if they do if the nations do like it they can rally support in the open without the risk of beening thrown out. Therefor the natives of the region can change things themselves.

Hey heres an idea...

Don't give delegates in Feeder regions access to regional controls.

Bad, bad idea. UN Delegates have these powers because there is no Founder in these regions. That would leave them defenseless against spammers and other kinds of pests.

As there is no founder, FS does as he pleases without anyone being able to react. In any normal region, FS's actions would have been approved or condemned by the founder. Here there is no founder to judge the Delegate, so we must fall back to the mods, that have decided to wash their hands in the matter. I expect they'll wash their hands too when FS is kicked out of The Pacific by any means needed. WWII was needed to remove Hitler from power, don't forget that.

As I stated in another thread (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70412&highlight=) (read, but don't post there), I think he along with all his puppets and minions should be banned from all feeder regions to avoid having this same thread but with "The North Pacific" as target region. All feeder regions are vulnerable to this. And the only people with power to do something about it are the mods.

which they have repeatedly said they will do nothing about...

*ducks ans neutered sputniks starts to blow*

No, no...

Seeing that the mods have washed their hands on this, I am seriously considering taking over a Feeder Region for myself. And I expect the mods behave exactly the same as with FS, that is, do nothing.

How does "UNDisputed Ruler of The North Pacific" sound? :twisted: Errr... I mean "UNDelegate for The North Pacific".

Evil Sith wrote;
Bad, bad idea. UN Delegates have these powers because there is no Founder in these regions. That would leave them defenseless against spammers and other kinds of pests.

Thats what the MOD's and the getting help page is for.


Don't get me wrong many of the delegates from these regions are good people but I really think this is the best solution.

Evil Sith wrote;
Bad, bad idea. UN Delegates have these powers because there is no Founder in these regions. That would leave them defenseless against spammers and other kinds of pests.

Thats what the MOD's and the getting help page is for.


Don't get me wrong many of the delegates from these regions are good people but I really think this is the best solution.

You have it upside down. Why not let us play the game, and get rid of the moderators? After all, that's the nature of this world. Let all players fight it out among themselves!

I'd be glad to if there were chance of even getting onto the battlefield.

I'd be glad to if there were chance of even getting onto the battlefield.

Sorry, battle is over and lost, just nobody knows it yet :P
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Give up and don't try???

I don't think so. :evil:

Give up and don't try???

I don't think so. :evil:

No soldier is reporting to fight. All NationStates players are tired of it, or don't care :cry:

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I bet the Pacific Army would fight. I know of alot of regions that would.

I bet the Pacific Army would fight. I know of alot of regions that would.

Yes they probably will, but I have not recruited one :(

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No the region "The Pacific Army"

I know of at least 10 other regions that would be willing to help

Good Luck :wink:

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Yepp if the playing field where leveled we would give ole Franco a fight he wouldn't forget.

However, since it will never be leveled that is why I suggested that feeder region have no regional controls.

Yepp if the playing field where leveled we would give ole Franco a fight he wouldn't forget.

However, since it will never be leveled that is why I suggested that feeder region have no regional controls.

You are wasting valuable forum space. The mods are not gonna change anything.
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this is true. and you have been given far more hints than i would.

just who do you work for? whyaren't they organized?

this is true. and you have been given far more hints than i would.

just who do you work for? whyaren't they organized?

We are trying to organize, but they all only care about secrecy :? ,
so now nobody knows who is doing what :P
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Are there any further questions regarding the official announcement?

I'm thinking about asking that further discussion of legal invasions be conducted in a separate topic. I don't want to lock this topic for containing off-topic discussion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Are there any further questions regarding the official announcement?

I'm thinking about asking that further discussion of legal invasions be conducted in a separate topic. I don't want to lock this topic for containing off-topic discussion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Any other topic about this gets scrolled away into oblivion. Tried one in "General" and one in "International incidents". Give it 10 minutes, and it don't excist anymore. This is the only one that sticks :P I refuse to bump my own topics, because I think that is just plain pityfull.
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Are there any further questions regarding the official announcement?

I'm thinking about asking that further discussion of legal invasions be conducted in a separate topic. I don't want to lock this topic for containing off-topic discussion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation


thank you. noted.

hm. well we could create a topic and post it to general and then start posting the url....

Are there any further questions regarding the official announcement?

I'm thinking about asking that further discussion of legal invasions be conducted in a separate topic. I don't want to lock this topic for containing off-topic discussion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation


thank you. noted.

hm. well we could create a topic and post it to general and then start posting the url....

Lol, you didn't bother to read my answer, did you :lol:
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hm. well we could create a topic and post it to general and then start posting the url....

Good idea. Make the topic and post the URL here. That will cut down on unrelated matter in this topic.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

that's what i was thinking.

that's what i was thinking.

Okay, here it is, I think:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72448

You are free to start a new one, if this one isn't it.
Ps. am I allowed to use it in my signature?

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Ps. am I allowed to use it in my signature?

As long as your signature doesn't get too big, I don't have a problem with it.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

It's amazing to myself how so many nations can gripe that Francos Spain is "untouchable" because he has 200 enodorsements and the Mods wont do anything to make an invasion easier for the invaders.

Let me explain something, FS is playing by the same rules that everyone is else being held to. Simply because he is not the delegate you would choose for the region does not mean he is not the popular delegate. Arguing that because he's ejecting invaders before they get a chance to participate in a democratic election will only serve to hinder every other nation that ever attempts to defend a region.


You might now like FS as delegate of the region, that does not require that the Mods change the rules so that you can remove him. That kind of action would be perverted into a major game flaw.

I'ts somewhat interesting to see so many nations clamoring to have FS removed from power for defending his position in the same manner many of the bitching players use to defend their postion when being invaded, or dealing with hostile takeovers...

It's somewhat interesting to see so many nations clamoring to have FS removed from power for defending his position in the same manner many of the bitching players use to defend their postion when being invaded, or dealing with hostile takeovers...

Hey, don't look at me. :wink:

I have been formally requested to make all posts in one feel swoop, so I have to combine individual posts. I can’t believe it is more efficient to have people read through so many quotes in a single post, but what do I know. Rules, they must be followed….


Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

i wuold vote against such a proposal. may the un never be given that power.

I have to agree with you, which is why I quoted:

I've made a proposal to the UN that I think should be a way around an invasion. The resolution calls for ousting Francos Spain as delegate. I don't believe this is a violation of UN protocol, as all that will be done from a game standpoint is to either remove him from the UN or remove his endorsements.

Regardless, check it out and tell me what you think

That is what this is suggesting.

Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

Well, geez, most of the European nations did when they were world powers and so does America. Seriously, again, I find myself in agreement with all your posts on this topic. Bah. *grin*

I am sorry to hear that :twisted: :P . I will have to attempt to be more disagreeable.



Would you suggest that the Un should be able to choose the leader of a sovergn region?

No, but I think the UN should be given power over who it recognizes as a Delegate. Francos Spain's region, and his number of endorsements cause him to be like a Security Council member in the real UN. In the real UN, Delegates to the Security Council must be elected by the General Assembly.

Further, membership in the UN is regulated by Chapter II of the UN charter. The UN can suspend or revoke membership in the organization through a vote. As Francos Spain's "power" comes through his UN seat (and the powers running with it, i.e. the power to ban), the UN would be acting to reduce the powers of one of its members, which is something that the Charter provides for.

Further, the Charter explicitly states that the General Assembly has the right and power to suggest this to the Security Council (Article 11).

Also related, Article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that no one should be subject to arbitrary exile.

And anyway, why can't the NS UN choose its membership, especially at the highest and most powerful level? Or at least have a resolution for it.

Interesting post, thanks for clarifying. A couple of issues with it though.

One, thank you for being so grounded in the real UN. Understanding foreign policy and politics is vital for this game to continue to reach new heights. That said, you seem to me to be too grounded in real life.

In RL, if the UN votes not to acknowledge not to acknowledge a Delegate from a certain region (country) what happens? They simply stop allowing that person to have say in world affairs. But in this game, that would mean that Francos would no longer have any power.

To put another way, in RL the UN can only say that it will not deal with that person, it doesn’t actually have the ability to negate that person’s leadership roll within his/her own country. But your suggestion would do just that. It would suggest that the UN is the only power acknowledged. If this were the case all non-un nations might as well leave the game, and the URL might as well change to Unitednations.net. It would, to adegree, undermine the RW diversity in the game.

As well, and this is just a personal issue. But, it’s a political game, so why not touch on politics. I don’t think you have the right to kill government make up that you disagree with. I don’t think that the rules of life should be democracy or life. The idea of democracy, is that it serves the people. And if this is true, and you provide the ability for something akin to objectivity, then the people will choose democracy themselves.

In other words, the suggestion that all dictatorships should be simply wiped away by the rest of the world simply because you disagree with them, is to me a bit arrogant (not disrespect meant) and ineffective. That systems should deserve to exist. Possibilities are good, it is realities that should be wiped out not the opposite. As well, dictators do exist. If you merely state you should be able to disacknowledge it, it seems like hiding your eyes behind your hands in order to avoid the darkness. Not the best step. The darkness still exists. And while light is preferred, darkness should be an option.

I’m not God, but I think free will is an okay thing.

I hear the same thing from both Mods and game players.

We the game players have tried to oust Franco..but because of the scripting or whatever tool he uses to manage the region this has made ousting him impossable.

How to correct this...simple remove the Ban function on feeder regions. The nation in charge can eject but can not ban.

No. There is a much better possibility. Try harder to attempt to over-throw Francos. It seems to me attempts are fractured, and ill-attempted to this point.

You guys keep saying take it back.
One problem, Franco eject then bans anyone who even ooks like they are trying. Getting 200 or 300 nations to jump in is a logistical nightmare, not to mention he will start ejecting as soon as 2 more start coming in.

So you see when you give him all the cards and the NUKE button it makes it real hard to even start anything. Thats my point.

Two points of note are in bold.

So your point is not that the nations of The Pacific can not take the region back? Your point is it would be hard.



To make any battle in a game (requiring 200 people to overtake 1) that severely slanted in favor of one player is IMHO a design flaw.

No, it's seige-craft.

Just like invading a keep required vastly more people than it takes to defend, the same goes for taking a region, any region, from an active Delegate. Granted, everything has scaled up, as it's a large region, but the fact still remains that you need an overwhealming force to topple someone who has the defensive edge.

This isn't a design flaw. The mechanics that make defending against invaders easier...

And oddly, no one complains when Home Advantage keeps them self from invasions night after night. It seems that there is an attempt to set up even more of inequity. It seems odd to me that there is so much talk about technique, hurt feelings, and difficulty.

Invasions is a number game, pure and simple. And more nations don’t like Francos then do like Francos. Seems like too much talk, and too little action as of yet.

No the region "The Pacific Army"

I know of at least 10 other regions that would be willing to help

Good. You need to start uniting all of them. If you want help, TM me, I have a few suggestions in a simple forum to help all involved on this issue.


that's what i was thinking.

Okay, here it is, I think:

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72448

You are free to start a new one, if this one isn't it.
Ps. am I allowed to use it in my signature?

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Please do not take this the wrong way. But if Francos is at all smart, and he seems to be smart enough at least—then this is a horrible idea. He will put pawns into your group with advertising like this, and when you plan an attack he will know ahead of time, and you will be shocked he knew of your plans. You need to recruit a bit more under the cover, with known adversaries of him.

It's amazing to myself how so many nations can gripe that Francos Spain is "untouchable" because he has 200 enodorsements and the Mods wont do anything to make an invasion easier for the invaders.

Let me explain something, FS is playing by the same rules that everyone is else being held to. Simply because he is not the delegate you would choose for the region does not mean he is not the popular delegate. Arguing that because he's ejecting invaders before they get a chance to participate in a democratic election will only serve to hinder every other nation that ever attempts to defend a region.


You might now like FS as delegate of the region, that does not require that the Mods change the rules so that you can remove him. That kind of action would be perverted into a major game flaw.

I'ts somewhat interesting to see so many nations clamoring to have FS removed from power for defending his position in the same manner many of the bitching players use to defend their postion when being invaded, or dealing with hostile takeovers...


To me this is key. I think this is only because many of these players are incredibly subjective, and see the rules only in how they benefit them, not in how they benefit all. Part of the problem of seeing things in how they relate to you, versus as they simply are.

So, did this seem the most effecient way of posting to you all. Hopefully you all at least browsed to see if I quoted your specfiic point.

My God, Ack!

What is that, a doctoral dissertation? A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

I'ts somewhat interesting to see so many nations clamoring to have FS removed from power for defending his position in the same manner many of the bitching players use to defend their postion when being invaded, or dealing with hostile takeovers...

If it weren't for the *&^%*!! banning option in Region Controls, I wouldn't worry about regions being invaded at all!!! Invasions can be fun even, on both attacking and defending side. The problem comes when the banning portion of region controls are getting abused. This is when regions can get completely destroyed. I've filed enough Mod Reports about stuff like that happening, and it doesn't look like it's stopping any time soon.

My standard suggestion for regional defense is to simply turn delegate access to region control off. When one does that, the problem of griefing invasions is solved. Regions without a Founder are left with no other option than to (ab)use the regional controls to prevent invaders of (ab)using the same. It's a horrible ability to grant to any delegate, and I've pleaded before to have it removed from ALL regions (in combination with more lenient granting of Founderships). The size and nature of the pacifics merely make the problem much more clear there, and I see the Francos Spain situation as merely a result of the underlying game design flaw. For all I care you make Francos Spain a Mod, I have nothing against him personally.

In case you hadn't noticed, The Pacific was essentially gutted. There used to be an active community in there.

Ballotonia

A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

There were complaints about that format. Ackbar is using this format at the request of the mods.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogtiation

My God, Ack!

What is that, a doctoral dissertation? A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

I agree. I was told that these combined posts will be more efecient for the mods, which I am sure is true. I also don't think it was at all a factor, but it should ensure that less people read my posts as well, but what are you going to do. If I feel I have a valid point, I will make it. So, looks like we simply have some long days ahead. :D :shock:

My God, Ack!

What is that, a doctoral dissertation? A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

I agree. I was told that these combined posts will be more efecient for the mods, which I am sure is true. I also don't think it was at all a factor, but it should ensure that less people read my posts as well, but what are you going to do. If I feel I have a valid point, I will make it. So, looks like we simply have some long days ahead. :D :shock:

Im busy at work right now - but I have a few points to make counterpoint to your points Ackbar (You did know I wouldn't agree about nation invading {snicker}).

Should be interesting to see the length your posts will grow to with folks quoting your post and parsing their own answers in.

Hope everyone has those handy dandy little scroll wheeles on their mice. If not - I'd invest in one...

My God, Ack!

What is that, a doctoral dissertation? A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

I agree. I was told that these combined posts will be more efecient for the mods, which I am sure is true. I also don't think it was at all a factor, but it should ensure that less people read my posts as well, but what are you going to do. If I feel I have a valid point, I will make it. So, looks like we simply have some long days ahead. :D :shock:

I think that in this case the Mods are in a situation where you have to be careful what you wish for. In any event well thought out. I agree, too much talk not enough action. The South Pacific was successful in toppling delegates ejecting everyone in sight twice with no moderator intervention.

After reading this, I've concluded that we must resort to American Political Rules to resolve this. So who do we need to Assassinate to get a change in delegate. The first time around he survived or was revived.

The notion that 200 in The Pacific is considered popular support is wrong and Francos Spain is an invader, not native. PERIOD. Anything else is a lie. Anyone in The Pacific reaching close to 25% of Francos Spain's endorsement level (InfernoIce and Poskrebyshev the exceptions) are ejected from the region. You don't even have to be in the UN to get ejected. Just ask a question, or say more than two posts on the message boards with a friend. Francos Spain's list of banned nations is well over 300 nations.

Francos Spain was not native. He is an invader, and he ejected natives, and he has not removed anyone from the banned list.

A country from inside the region (created in The Pacific) which attains UN status can count on being in The Rejected Realms once it reaches 50 endorsements. My main country was ejected, as was my puppet, and my other puppets. My friends have seen the same fate.

At what point would an invader be considered native? Seems to be a week or two as far as the MODs are concerned. Long enough for an invader to develope local support.

Better than 20% of Francos Spain's support is from nations that are over 20 days old. In a week, these will, if we are lucky, cease to exist. Anyone hoping to replace Francos has been long removed from the region. Francos could still hold power even if he has only three endorsements as he continues to eject everyone else who tries to gain popular support. He is very much active at reset time around 0908 GMT and he is efficient (too much so) at removing anyone that is a threat to him.

So, which MOD was it that deleted him? Thank you.

So, which MOD was it that deleted him? Thank you.

They blame it on a very selective bug :twisted:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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or maybe the game just has good taste ;)

It really is amazing how many nations Francos Spain has banned.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_nation/page=region_control/region=The_Pacific

And once again, I ask...how many of those are puppets of the same players that were created in an attempt to have the Mods act on higher numbers of banned nations? How many are true threats to Francos' "throne" or invaders, which he has every right to ban?

It really is amazing how many nations Francos Spain has banned.

*tries to unban himself*

And once again, I ask...how many of those are puppets of the same players that were created in an attempt to have the Mods act on higher numbers of banned nations? How many are true threats to Francos' "throne" or invaders, which he has every right to ban?

Sorry, but you only judge on numbers which I find very cold. I have some puppets banned from there just for having the sum of 50+ endorsements. I wished people would stop screaming about the numbers and look at the individual. Sorry Neut, but I don't like to be punnished for playing fair, and don't insult me with telling that they were only puppets. I know that if Corinthe comes in and tries to get people to vote for her, she will be ejected and banned for the rest of this year, just because she is lobbying. But nobody cares about that. The Pacific is no place for Fair play anymore. No matter what the mods say.

So, Corinthe, you'd like for us to interpret the rules differently now that you're attempting an invasion? And then when you have to defend against an invasion rule that you can ban anyone that's coming close in endorsements?

when did she say that?

I'm thinking the insinuation was there Bist. All in all an extremely tense situation which needs some cooler heads for awhile. Nothing going to be accomplished baiting and angering those who administer the rules.

didn't mean to flamebait. i was just asking as i didn't see the same thing.

perhaps i misread the post.

Corinthe, along with all the other nations banned from the Pacific want the Mods to rule against Francos. In effect, we would be saying that the delegate of a region cannot use the kick/ban feature to defend against hostile takeovers - internal or external.

Knowing there is a number of nations who are asking for Mod intervention to remove Francos for defending his position in much the same manner as the accusers have in the past, or will in the future, is the reason for the last part of my previous post.

The rules dont change just because you're on the other side of them. Rules are rules. Invaders have no right to the region, and the delegate can kick/ban as many invader puppets as necessary to retain control of a region. Plain and simple. Just because more puppet nations were created to pad the numbers does not change that Francos has the right to defend his region from invasion the same as any other delegate has.

To rule against the Delegate of a region defending his region from attack would be detrimental to every other Delegate that ever has to defend his/her region. Not to mention the damage done by undermining a good portion of the rules concerning invasions.

Corinthe, along with all the other nations banned from the Pacific want the Mods to rule against Francos. In effect, we would be saying that the delegate of a region cannot use the kick/ban feature to defend against hostile takeovers - internal or external.

Knowing there is a number of nations who are asking for Mod intervention to remove Francos for defending his position in much the same manner as the accusers have in the past, or will in the future, is the reason for the last part of my previous post.

The rules dont change just because you're on the other side of them. Rules are rules. Invaders have no right to the region, and the delegate can kick/ban as many invader puppets as necessary to retain control of a region. Plain and simple. Just because more puppet nations were created to pad the numbers does not change that Francos has the right to defend his region from invasion the same as any other delegate has.

To rule against the Delegate of a region defending his region from attack would be detrimental to every other Delegate that ever has to defend his/her region. Not to mention the damage done by undermining a good portion of the rules concerning invasions.

Easy and understandably. This way it is virtually impossible to get hold of the delegacy, since the delegate (I don't care about his name anymore) can eject all oponents until he has only 1 endorsement left.
Invading is for me impossible, since I don't even know how an UN Endorcement Update looks like. Or I have to many RL issues to attend, to find out at what time it's gonna happen anyway. Getting 200+ soldiers to invade together with me, is also impossible, since I never played the invading game, and I actually give a "Rat's Nose" about invading anyway. I need to uphold that reputation, because nobody ever invaded one of my regios ever :lol:
I decided to drop the issue, because none of other's ever bothered to help me anyway. Right now I found out that the place is a great recruiting area :wink:
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I agree an UND must have ample leeway for defending the region under his/her responsibility against EXTERNAL invaders.

The point YOU all seem to forget is the fact is that his first UND action was to ban from the region any NATIVE that could pose a threat to his tyranical rule. No fair play there, just pure dictatorship, that can only be carried out without opposition in a defenseless region (no founder=defenseless against UND power abuse).

THAT is the issue we must be aware and not lose sight of. And that is the ONLY point you mods haven't addressed. Stop talking nonsense about defenders, invaders and so-and-so. Even the number of banned nations is irrellevant to the issue. It is the fact of his first action as UND that condemns him.

Ban him from all feeder nations, to avoid a repeat of that, and try to be aware that having no founder, the feeder regions Founder responsibility falls collectively under the mods' shoulders. So, do a ruling as The Pacific Founders, not as mods. As mods, of course you have to wash your hands as a region's resposibility falls on the founder, and no mod SHOULD meddle in any region's internal affairs. Any region but the Feeders, that have no Founder, of course, making them different. And so they should be differently handled.

A lot of NATIVE nations have stated that they don't want FS as UND. And banned for that. Pity there are no counter-endorsements.

I personally think he does a good job in angering people in his regio. Look at the Pacific Army. Their number are booming. The Pacific turned out to be a great recruiting area. I made my mind up and move on :P
I have another regio too, who is booming because of the situation. Sometimes fighting is no solution. His weak spot is, that he thinks he's smart, but actually he is helping other regios to grow, if you get my drift :twisted: '
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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Really?

Then I have an even "greater" idea: expel ALL pacific-based nations to the RR. The ones really interested will get back to the pacific, whereas the nations in extinction process and the passive players will be out of the region. Also, FS would lose over 50% of his endorsements in one blow. Win-win. Fresh start for the region.

And if you really think that is a good idea, I have this bridge in San Francisco that I have to sell as I cannot pay the insurance...

(So HideOut=Corinthe, hm? heh)

(So HideOut=Corinthe, hm? heh)

Yeah, sometimes my puppets are such blabbermouths! now I have to create another secret agent again :P
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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The point YOU all seem to forget is the fact is that his first UND action was to ban from the region any NATIVE that could pose a threat to his tyranical rule. <snip>

And that is the ONLY point you mods haven't addressed. Stop talking nonsense about defenders, invaders and so-and-so. Even the number of banned nations is irrellevant to the issue. It is the fact of his first action as UND that condemns him.

This has been addressed: A native Delegate may ban native nations. Francos Spain's actions are legal.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

my nation crazygirl3 recieved this telegram:
The Dominion of Francos Spain
Received: 9 hours ago Haven't you been warned for spamming yet? If you have, you'll be deleted for it this time around.

so, i was wondering...
was i spamming, and if so, was i warned for it?
i haven't seen any warning...
could someone please help me out?

my nation crazygirl3 recieved this telegram:
The Dominion of Francos Spain
Received: 9 hours ago Haven't you been warned for spamming yet? If you have, you'll be deleted for it this time around.

so, i was wondering...
was i spamming, and if so, was i warned for it?
i haven't seen any warning...
could someone please help me out?

Can't help you. I don't think you've been spamming the forums, so.... [shrug]

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

well, at least thanks for responding, cog ;)
still, i'd like to know if i got a warning or not...

If you get a warning, you'll recieve notice in your Telegrams.

okay, haven't had one of those..
thanks neut ;)

my nation crazygirl3 recieved this telegram:
The Dominion of Francos Spain
Received: 9 hours ago Haven't you been warned for spamming yet? If you have, you'll be deleted for it this time around.

It's been alleged that he's been getting IP's from visitors to his forum (BTW, has anyone figured out if he's really Praetor) and using them to screen nations moving into the pacific and also to send threatening telegrams to some who he perceives as challengers.

ummm...
is that possible?

is that possible

I think proboard can track IP addresses.

yes, it's stated when you want to register an account, but i mean, can he use that to screen nations?

yes, it's stated when you want to register an account, but i mean, can he use that to screen nations?

Only if you register under your Nation's name :wink:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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yes, it's stated when you want to register an account, but i mean, can he use that to screen nations?

Francos Spain is not a NationStates Moderator and cannot view IP addresses used to access NationStates.net.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

there, now that's a relief ;)
thanks cog!

there, now that's a relief ;)
thanks cog!

But he knows the IP numbers of the nations that are on his board, and that's all.
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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isn't that just the registered ones?
and anyway, what can he do with an ip-address?

isn't that just the registered ones?
and anyway, what can he do with an ip-address?

Ban it from his private forum. He can't do anything with it in NationStates.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

isn't that just the registered ones?
and anyway, what can he do with an ip-address?

I have my own board too, like the other 70.000 NS players :lol: , and I can see IP of guests too, and I believe that I can see it of people who just joined, without posting. But I don't bother of that, so I am not sure.

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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
The getting help section! (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help) (for all your gaming problems)http://www.nationstates.net/forum/templates/subSilver/images/whosonline.gif

well, as long as he can't really do anything with it (just ban people from his own forum) then i guess it doesn't really matter..

My God, Ack!

What is that, a doctoral dissertation? A whole bunch of smaller posts would be easier to sift through.

I agree. I was told that these combined posts will be more efecient for the mods, which I am sure is true. I also don't think it was at all a factor, but it should ensure that less people read my posts as well, but what are you going to do. If I feel I have a valid point, I will make it. So, looks like we simply have some long days ahead. :D :shock:

I think that in this case the Mods are in a situation where you have to be careful what you wish for. In any event well thought out. I agree, too much talk not enough action. The South Pacific was successful in toppling delegates ejecting everyone in sight twice with no moderator intervention.

Funny, and good to see you again, friend. The Pacific Army seems to be building something, but I really can’t tell you what. I have several connections to attempts to topple Francos, and as I can see there are no strings connecting them all. And I fear that their lack of planning will be perceived as a lack of possibility in terms of being able to defeat Francos. They simply need to play a bit smarter. Look at the posters, there is intelligence. One person noted earlier (in a funny context) that they actually had time both to complain and to plan against Francos. Well, looking at the planning I see (and I don’t see nearly all of it, clearly) there is a lot of room for those against Francos to be even smarter, and more aggressive in there strategy. This is a big undertaking, and should be planned out accordingly.


The next quote I am going to edit for space, tho feel comfortable there was a lot of repetition:
After reading this, I've concluded that we must resort to American Political Rules to resolve this. So who do we need to Assassinate to get a change in delegate. The first time around he survived or was revived.

The notion that 200 in The Pacific is considered popular support is wrong and Francos Spain is an invader, not native. PERIOD. Anything else is a lie. Anyone in The Pacific reaching close to 25% of Francos Spain's endorsement level (InfernoIce and Poskrebyshev the exceptions) are ejected from the region. You don't even have to be in the UN to get ejected. Just ask a question, or say more than two posts on the message boards with a friend. Francos Spain's list of banned nations is well over 300 nations.

Francos Spain was not native. He is an invader, and he ejected natives, and he has not removed anyone from the banned list.

So, which MOD was it that deleted him? Thank you.

A lot of this borders on flaming. I assume part of this an aside on the Iraqi situation? Or could be a reference to conspiracy theories of assassinations within the Clinton presidency? Doesn’t matter, it is a inflammatory either way. Though, more importantly, it comes across as ill thought out.

Francos has been determined to be a native. Posting over and over again that he is an invader will do no good. I strongly suggest spending your time to doing something that will serve you will, such as working with groups to unseat him.


So, which MOD was it that deleted him? Thank you.

They blame it on a very selective bug :twisted:
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Corinthe, Queen of Eternity.
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So I am not the only one to find that funny?

And once again, I ask...how many of those are puppets of the same players that were created in an attempt to have the Mods act on higher numbers of banned nations? How many are true threats to Francos' "throne" or invaders, which he has every right to ban?

Sorry, but you only judge on numbers which I find very cold. I have some puppets banned from there just for having the sum of 50+ endorsements. I wished people would stop screaming about the numbers and look at the individual. Sorry Neut, but I don't like to be punnished for playing fair, and don't insult me with telling that they were only puppets. I know that if Corinthe comes in and tries to get people to vote for her, she will be ejected and banned for the rest of this year, just because she is lobbying. But nobody cares about that. The Pacific is no place for Fair play anymore. No matter what the mods say.

I understand your frustration, but surely you are aware of dictatorships. They are not fair, in principle they are the opposite. In a game about poltics, people should be able to be dictators. Fair, no? But, polticlly possible, yes. I don’t see how he is cheating, tho I understand your frustration, I honestly do.


I agree an UND must have ample leeway for defending the region under his/her responsibility against EXTERNAL invaders.

The point YOU all seem to forget is the fact is that his first UND action was to ban from the region any NATIVE that could pose a threat to his tyranical rule. No fair play there, just pure dictatorship, that can only be carried out without opposition in a defenseless region (no founder=defenseless against UND power abuse).



He is a dictator. Yes, that is the part he plays. And like most (if not all) dictators they are difficult to overthrow. It is very possible to do so though.

Okay, I want to clear up one specific point that's been bugging me to no friggin' end.

THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC.

I know, I was there.

The nation XYZ Affair hacked and swapped her way into the delegacy, booted all of what we now call "the old vets" (many of whom now reside in The Haertland), and ejected anyone who spoke out openly against her. Difference was, though, that unlike Francos Spain she was working entirely on her own--she didn't have lackeys and spies monitoring telegrams. We were able to oust her because of that.

The second time was Fathoms Below. Actually she was really nice... and for some reason ejected everyone right before refresh, including herself after posting an Atlantic thing into the regional factbook to make it look like an invasion and pin it all on Alpha C, who was next in line and in the ACC. We weren't banned, and after some investigation found out that Alpha hadn't logged on to his nation in days and that Fathoms Below's account had been hacked by none other than, you guessed it, XYZ.

What happened in The South Pacific was the result of hacking and other cheating, and we've worked exceptionally hard to move past it and put up safeguards to make sure it won't happen again. As much as I dislike Francos Spain and his methods, and as hard as I've worked on the side of the people who've been kicked out, you people need to take a good deep look into the mirror and realize that he got there by legitimate means and you're going to have to band together to move past it.

Stop whining--it's a waste of precious energy that could be used on plans to get him out. Yeah, it sucks, but there's more than double of you than there are of Francos and his supporters. You all need to get organized, get a leader, and get a plan. The mods have spoken, and no amount of arguing is going to change the decision.

Slacker, you're right except for one thing. No one has ever hacked the game...but other than that, you've hit it right on the head ;)

There is something fishy going on:

FS has resigned his UN membership and Poskrebyshev is the new UND.

I still suspect he is one of FS minions, so AFAIK no real change of power has happened.

FS may be switching to a different nation or preparing an invasion into another Feeder region. Be alert.

And of course, the first action is:

55 minutes ago The Free Land of Perpetual Peace Francos Spain is gone! He'll be back though, he left the un for some reason
55 minutes ago The Allied States of Ryoko-San hey wait a min, what the hell happened to Francos? My IE says there is no delegate.
52 minutes ago The Free Land of Perpetual Peace I know! He accidntly resigned himself!
49 minutes ago The Free Land of Anti-United States whoa, whats going on here?

45 minutes ago The Allied States of Ryoko-San Somebody must have taken him out. He would never resign, a delegate with 200 endorsements? no way. damnit he needs to log on and clear-up the matter. and get back into power. I liked him!
17 minutes ago The Colony of ZerOne What a great new world.

· Seconds ago: The Principality of Hideo kojima departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Principality of Hideo kojima from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Empire of Foxinia departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Empire of Foxinia from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Kingdom of Enjoyland departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Kingdom of Enjoyland from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Republic of Dupa departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Republic of Dupa from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Kingdom of Der Krieger departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Kingdom of Der Krieger from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Republic of Malcolm T departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Republic of Malcolm T from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Oppressed Peoples of LaBeouf departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Oppressed Peoples of LaBeouf from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Sultanate of Kurban departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Sultanate of Kurban from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Commonwealth of Kruegenstein departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Commonwealth of Kruegenstein from the region.
· 1 minute ago: The Republic of Korumburra departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· 1 minute ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Republic of Korumburra from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Holy Empire of Oppressive Zealots departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Holy Empire of Oppressive Zealots from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Confederacy of Myrdinn departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Confederacy of Myrdinn from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Republic of Malcolm T departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Republic of Malcolm T from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Oppressed Peoples of LaBeouf departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Oppressed Peoples of LaBeouf from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Sultanate of Kurban departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Sultanate of Kurban from the region.
· Seconds ago: The Most Serene Republic of Punxsutawney Girl departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Most Serene Republic of Punxsutawney Girl from the region.
· Seconds ago: The People's Republic of Phocks departed this region for The Rejected Realms
· Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The People's Republic of Phocks from the region.

15 minutes ago The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev * Seconds ago: The Colony of ZerOne departed this region for The Rejected Realms
* Seconds ago: The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev ejected The Colony of ZerOne from the region.
9 minutes ago The Republic of Zerone1 You'll get kicked out of here quicker than Francos will be let back in.

You also forgot to mention the 50 others that got banned seconds before and after me. :)
7 minutes ago The Grand Duchy of Poskrebyshev # Seconds ago: The Republic of Zerone1 departed this region for The Rejected Realms
5 minutes ago The Republic of Francines Spain Does this mean I can back in?


No surprises here... Sigh.

No reason given either....I wasn't even trying to get anymore endorsements or attacking F. Spain. I was just sitting there in the morning...come back & I'm in the RRR. I was confused until I saw this...and found out F. Spain left the UN...but that still doesn't explain why I'm in the RRR :? :evil:

No reason given either....I wasn't even trying to get anymore endorsements or attacking F. Spain. I was just sitting there in the morning...come back & I'm in the RRR. I was confused until I saw this...and found out F. Spain left the UN...but that still doesn't explain why I'm in the RRR :? :evil:

Per the rules, no explanation has to be given by the delegate. He/she could flip a coin if so desired.

Sorry,

Ballotonia

Looks like P is ejecting those who have more than 70 endorsements (Myrdinn), those who did not endorse him or the other two members of the troika, FS and InfernoIce, and some of FS's more recent endorsements(must've gotten wind of some of the --er-- plans) who had not endorsed P.

I've been in The Pacific since I started. I've been minding my own business since then. Then poof, I wake up today in the Rejected Realms. I did ABSOLUTELY nothing to deserve this. I had a whole of 6 endorcements, I didn't endorce anyone, I didn't speak on the boards, I did nothing but stay there and play the game in idle moments (I really just play 5-10 mins or so a day to watch my nations advancement in industry and economy or read messages people send me).

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but banning for no reason is illegal right? If you read the world factbook for The Pacific I'm sure I'm not the only one just banned. The new delegate is just banning people for no real reason. It's one thing to CHALLENGE the delegate; its completely different if you just sit there.

If anyone calls this politics I say bull. This is not fun and I'm sure hes definately ruined a game for many who just joined the game.

My point exactly. You got banned because you were trying to stay neutral and you didn't endorse any of the troika.

There are many other regions to live in, personally, I have never stayed in a feeder region longer than necessary. Look around, you find one more personal, related to your interests, where you won't be kicked. Actually, I've been living happily in the Rejected Realms (by my choice) for quite a while now.


http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Can you be kicked from that one too? I'll camp in the RR for a while now too.

Can you be kicked from that one to?

No.

but you can be banned from the game... but that takes a lot.

Can you be kicked from that one too? I'll camp in the RR for a while now too.

As RR delegate, my powers are limited to changing the World Factbook Entry. The Regional Control looks the same, but only that ability is enabled. Try anything else, and I get an error message.

Okay, I want to clear up one specific point that's been bugging me to no friggin' end.

THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC.

I know, I was there.

The nation XYZ Affair hacked and swapped her way into the delegacy, booted all of what we now call "the old vets" (many of whom now reside in The Haertland), and ejected anyone who spoke out openly against her. Difference was, though, that unlike Francos Spain she was working entirely on her own--she didn't have lackeys and spies monitoring telegrams. We were able to oust her because of that.

The second time was Fathoms Below. Actually she was really nice... and for some reason ejected everyone right before refresh, including herself after posting an Atlantic thing into the regional factbook to make it look like an invasion and pin it all on Alpha C, who was next in line and in the ACC. We weren't banned, and after some investigation found out that Alpha hadn't logged on to his nation in days and that Fathoms Below's account had been hacked by none other than, you guessed it, XYZ.

What happened in The South Pacific was the result of hacking and other cheating, and we've worked exceptionally hard to move past it and put up safeguards to make sure it won't happen again. As much as I dislike Francos Spain and his methods, and as hard as I've worked on the side of the people who've been kicked out, you people need to take a good deep look into the mirror and realize that he got there by legitimate means and you're going to have to band together to move past it.

Stop whining--it's a waste of precious energy that could be used on plans to get him out. Yeah, it sucks, but there's more than double of you than there are of Francos and his supporters. You all need to get organized, get a leader, and get a plan. The mods have spoken, and no amount of arguing is going to change the decision.

Well said Slack, however I was there too and the similarities are remarkable. The major difference is Francos is using scripting to maintain control. To try and say otherwise you are in complete denial. This has attracted much attention from a variety of parties since this is a definite test case as to how to overcome a delegate entrenched in this fashion. I suspect a leader will emerge soon but quietly.

we all have hope. at least in the meantime the numbers of needed endorsements have gone down.

There has been absolutely no evidence of Francos' use of a script to control his region. The Mods have been watching very closely, and Salusa has been investigating these allegations and as of yet, no evidence has been found of Francos' using a script.

Whatever scripting is, I don't know. Everything that Francos and now Poskrebyshev does is simply the result of good intell. Using the dossier and other tricks could give the same results.

There is something fishy going on:

FS has resigned his UN membership and Poskrebyshev is the new UND.

I still suspect he is one of FS minions, so AFAIK no real change of power has happened.

FS may be switching to a different nation or preparing an invasion into another Feeder region. Be alert.

I think it is likely that there is much about Francos we don’t know. That said, I do not believe he has the forces to take another feeder region. We’ll see though.


I've been in The Pacific since I started. I've been minding my own business since then. Then poof, I wake up today in the Rejected Realms. I did ABSOLUTELY nothing to deserve this. I had a whole of 6 endorcements, I didn't endorce anyone, I didn't speak on the boards, I did nothing but stay there and play the game in idle moments (I really just play 5-10 mins or so a day to watch my nations advancement in industry and economy or read messages people send me).

First, don’t take this wrong. But, lets run down what you said. You didn’t endorse anyone. You didn’t post on the regional boards. You only check your nation for about 5 – 10 minutes a day. Why are you upset about being kicked out of the region? According to what you wrote, it seems you were not at all active with the region.



Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but banning for no reason is illegal right? If you read the world factbook for The Pacific I'm sure I'm not the only one just banned. The new delegate is just banning people for no real reason. It's one thing to CHALLENGE the delegate; its completely different if you just sit there.

If anyone calls this politics I say bull. This is not fun and I'm sure hes definately ruined a game for many who just joined the game.


Since you asked, you are wrong. It is permissible for a natural delegate of a region (and Francos has been billed a non-invader by mods) to kick anyone in the region. And, you were kicked, all very legal.

As to new players having their game ruined because they were kicked from the region. Look, there are a LOT of regions in the game. Not being in The Pacific does not necisitate misery. If they are so fragile that not-nice politics will turn them to a sell of a person, I am not sure how they will handle pitfalls such as fragile economies or oppressive civil rights. It’s politics, and not all of it is nice.

Well, I see you disagree with this. I have seen many posts about how it is viewed as a political move, how is this not politics? I argue that it is unpopular politics, dictatorships are. It is politics nonetheless.



Okay, I want to clear up one specific point that's been bugging me to no friggin' end.

THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC.

I know, I was there.

The nation XYZ Affair hacked and swapped her way into the delegacy, booted all of what we now call "the old vets" (many of whom now reside in The Haertland), and ejected anyone who spoke out openly against her. Difference was, though, that unlike Francos Spain she was working entirely on her own--she didn't have lackeys and spies monitoring telegrams. We were able to oust her because of that.

The second time was Fathoms Below. Actually she was really nice... and for some reason ejected everyone right before refresh, including herself after posting an Atlantic thing into the regional factbook to make it look like an invasion and pin it all on Alpha C, who was next in line and in the ACC. We weren't banned, and after some investigation found out that Alpha hadn't logged on to his nation in days and that Fathoms Below's account had been hacked by none other than, you guessed it, XYZ.

What happened in The South Pacific was the result of hacking and other cheating, and we've worked exceptionally hard to move past it and put up safeguards to make sure it won't happen again. As much as I dislike Francos Spain and his methods, and as hard as I've worked on the side of the people who've been kicked out, you people need to take a good deep look into the mirror and realize that he got there by legitimate means and you're going to have to band together to move past it.

Stop whining--it's a waste of precious energy that could be used on plans to get him out. Yeah, it sucks, but there's more than double of you than there are of Francos and his supporters. You all need to get organized, get a leader, and get a plan. The mods have spoken, and no amount of arguing is going to change the decision.

Well said Slack, however I was there too and the similarities are remarkable. The major difference is Francos is using scripting to maintain control. To try and say otherwise you are in complete denial. This has attracted much attention from a variety of parties since this is a definite test case as to how to overcome a delegate entrenched in this fashion. I suspect a leader will emerge soon but quietly.

Well, there is something else, more of a factor I would argue, that is key in his holding the region (tho now one of his cohorts holds the region)—apathy, or something akin to it. I see so many players in the game complaining about this, rather then actively attempting to correct what they view as an option.

Players should stop expecting NS Mod Welfare, and work this one out on their own. And I view this as far, far larger of an issue then any script.

There has been absolutely no evidence of Francos' use of a script to control his region. The Mods have been watching very closely, and Salusa has been investigating these allegations and as of yet, no evidence has been found of Francos' using a script.

Well, there are legal scripts as well, right? I don’t think he is autmaticly kicking people out with a script, but I am sure he is using something. Those who appose him are using the same things, as I see.

eh? the opposing forces are using scripts? damn... why didn't anyone tell me. here i was doing all this work on my own....

*grumps about being left out of the loop* :roll:

i think someone just mentioen they don't, or at least there isn't any proof of it yet...
i dont know, just woke up......

eh? the opposing forces are using scripts? damn... why didn't anyone tell me. here i was doing all this work on my own....

*grumps about being left out of the loop* :roll:

Another problem with this attempt to reclaim the region, opposing groups are too fractured.

There has been absolutely no evidence of Francos' use of a script to control his region. The Mods have been watching very closely, and Salusa has been investigating these allegations and as of yet, no evidence has been found of Francos' using a script.

Well, there are legal scripts as well, right? I don’t think he is autmaticly kicking people out with a script, but I am sure he is using something. Those who appose him are using the same things, as I see.

Yes, there are legal scripts. However, my (admittedly limited) review of the evidence available shows no evidence of of Francos Spain using any illegal scripts whatsoever.

To the people acusing FS and others of using scripts, we do investigate these claims when we have the time, please do not automatically assume that because something isn't going your way that the other people may be cheating.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

There is something fishy going on:

FS has resigned his UN membership and Poskrebyshev is the new UND.

I still suspect he is one of FS minions, so AFAIK no real change of power has happened.

FS may be switching to a different nation or preparing an invasion into another Feeder region. Be alert.

I think it is likely that there is much about Francos we don’t know. That said, I do not believe he has the forces to take another feeder region. We’ll see though.

Actually, if he intends to do what he has done in the Pacific, the only additional "forces" he needs are one backup UN delegate. Even, if he has access to five different computers (different IPs) and five different e-mail accounts (very easy to do), he doesn't need a second person. And he can end up "owning" the five Pacifics.

He gets in a Feeder region (only ones this... scam? fraud? can work), swaps endorsements till reaching UND, and from there is just "maintenance work", that he can even delegate to some idiot willing to help this scheme. Out of 5000 people, some actively support him, and he just needs one.

How does it sound that?

Um, I highly doubt that as high profile a nation as Francos Spain has become, any attempt to invade another region by his nation would be an effort in futiility.

well, of course he doesn't use that nation ;)
it's really easy to make a lot new nations, i recently learned that ;)