NationStates Jolt Archive

Its not his private business, its a franchise, and he will have to conform to the rules laid down in his contract, which you can be pretty sure he's breaking. Based on what?

It may be a case of knowing what to say but the person's pronunciation is an issue because they may have not had great exposure to local pronunciation. They may be trying to speak phonetically, which may create problems because they won't know where to place the emphasis. Instead of being intolerant about it, try helping them by repeating and figuring it out. When they hear the proper way, they will likely try and mimic.

I always try and do this. At a Starbucks near my place, there was a girl working there who had a decent command of the language but would flub certain words. I realised she was struggling with one and asked her to repeat it and realised what she was trying to say. I then told her the correct pronunciation and she mimicked me, and was happy to have learnt the proper way to say "survey". It was nice to help someone.

People likely won't feel intimidated when you try and help. As it was said before, they likely get flustered when met with hostility as they try and swim through a new language.

I agree with you completely. Is he obligated to do this though?

That's just plain a lie - it's already been explained to you why this person's business is private and not government. And even if it was government, even the government cannot force their employees to speak a secondary language they don't wish to speak. Example if I know we both know two languages but for legal/security reasons all transactions must take place in English, then I would definitely enforce a policy like that.


You're the one who's lying.
The mail is governmentally regulated. If I can't mail a check because the postal worker is stubbornly refusing to serve me because I speak french, then I can sue the government's ass for the trouble it causes.

And I've read the two articles and it is clear the clerk is being an ass. He's lucky immigrants aren't more aware of their rights or he'd have a lawyer paying him a visit by now.

Its not his private business, its a franchise, and he will have to conform to the rules laid down in his contract, which you can be pretty sure he's breaking. The shopkeeper cannot (and should not) really expect people to be able to bring a friend round to prove things, its not his decision. He is turning the post office into a political tool, which he shouldn't.


Yes, I can expect you to bring a translator if you don't speak my language. No, it's not my responsibility to know every language nor is it my responsibility to reduce profits by hiring someone who does.
How is this turning "the post ofice" (which we've already established, isn't THE Post Office) into a political tool?

This magical contract you describe, I'd like to see a copy of it. I've seen several franchise agreements and I have yet to see one that says you will be accused of racism for not servicing people in all twent-thousand languages in the world.

Alien Born pointed out that, just as in Canada, this is a postal service that has been contracted out to a private party...he's not a gov't employee.

Nonetheless, that doesn't automatically mean it's not a public service. There are a number of legal analysis out there that help figure out what exactly constitutes the sometimes murky public versus private issue.

I bow to your superior legal mind.

However, If I am denied my mail because the clerk wants me to speak english, I'm pretty sure I can sue his ass, private or public.

Yes, I can expect you to bring a translator if you don't speak my language. No, it's not my responsibility to know every language nor is it my responsibility to reduce profits by hiring someone who does.
How is this turning "the post ofice" (which we've already established, isn't THE Post Office) into a political tool?

This magical contract you describe, I'd like to see a copy of it. I've seen several franchise agreements and I have yet to see one that says you will be accused of racism for not servicing people in all twent-thousand languages in the world.

Has it ever occured to you that in order to communicate, two parties don't necessarily need to speak the same language?
I've worked in customer-facing jobs in the past, all it takes is a bit of patience and some gesturing. It's not difficult.

You're the one who's lying.
The mail is governmentally regulated. If I can't mail a check because the postal worker is stubbornly refusing to serve me because I speak french, then I can sue the government's ass for the trouble it causes.

And I've read the two articles and it is clear the clerk is being an ass. He's lucky immigrants aren't more aware of their rights or he'd have a lawyer paying him a visit by now.

How is it lying to expose the fact that you keep repeating the same untruth over and over again? His store is private. What services he adds to his store, and who ultimately supplies those goods, is irrelevant. If I sell state regulated lottery tickets, and someone comes in and asks for them in another language, I won't be able to help them, even though it is a "government service." If they point at the lottery ticket in question, I would try to help them - for all I know they could be mute and denying service based on a refusal to speak would violate disabilities rights - but if they start in another language and get a blank stare from me, that's not my fault.

You're mischaracterizing the situation with the "refusal to serve because I speak French" - what you are describing is nowhere in either article. He is not refusing service based on nationality, but rather streamlining the process by temporarily denying people who don't have their shit together. You know, like when the person in front of you at the DMV tried to to something but has none of the required ID or paperwork and then starts to vent? No soup for you!

P.S. French is a state-recognized language in Montreal so it would be idiotic for a shopkeeper to deny service to a French speaker in your province. But there are a lot of valid reasons for that, and equally valid reasons why French Canadians should know English if they desire to travel.

I bow to your superior legal mind.

However, If I am denied my mail because the clerk wants me to speak english, I'm pretty sure I can sue his ass, private or public.

I don't want to look into the Human Rights Act (1998), the applicability or not of the European Convention on Human Rights, the applicability of either to this situation, etc etc. No, that's not true, I do want to, but I'd better not. Too much shit to do argh.

Yes, I can expect you to bring a translator if you don't speak my language. No, it's not my responsibility to know every language nor is it my responsibility to reduce profits by hiring someone who does.
How is this turning "the post ofice" (which we've already established, isn't THE Post Office) into a political tool?

This magical contract you describe, I'd like to see a copy of it. I've seen several franchise agreements and I have yet to see one that says you will be accused of racism for not servicing people in all twent-thousand languages in the world.

Based on what?

Post office website:

Our social policy is based on five key strategic themes:

Our ‘major supported charity’ programme
Employee volunteering
Revitalising payroll giving
Recruiting from socially excluded groups
Education & community engagement

You may also want to browse over the Postal Services Act 2000, Section 4 'universal service' is fairly important.

How is it lying to expose the fact that you keep repeating the same untruth over and over again? His store is private. What services he adds to his store, and who ultimately supplies those goods, is irrelevant. If I sell state regulated lottery tickets, and someone comes in and asks for them in another language,
I'm stopping you right there. If you are selling state-sponsored lottery and someone not speaking english comes in with a winning ticket, guess what: you can't trun him around for his spoken language.

So, governmental things like lottery and mail gives you more restriction that a regular private store. The clerk is being an ass.

You're mischaracterizing the situation with the "refusal to serve because I speak French" - what you are describing is nowhere in either article.

That's what we call an example, boy. (or girl.)

He is not refusing service based on nationality, but rather streamlining the process by temporarily denying people who don't have their shit together. You know, like when the person in front of you at the DMV tried to to something but has none of the required ID or paperwork and then starts to vent? No soup for you!

He's not denying service based on nationality but on spoken language. That's discrimination right there. He might want to do something proper and noble but he's not doing it the correct way.


P.S. French is a state-recognized language in Montreal so it would be idiotic for a shopkeeper to deny service to a French speaker in your province.

That's what we call an example, boy. (or girl.) And it was done less than 40 years ago.


But there are a lot of valid reasons for that, and equally valid reasons why French Canadians should know English if they desire to travel.

No there are not. Just as there are not valid reason you should learn french before coming to Montreal.

I don't want to look into the Human Rights Act (1998), the applicability or not of the European Convention on Human Rights, the applicability of either to this situation, etc etc. No, that's not true, I do want to, but I'd better not. Too much shit to do argh.

I've had a quick glance, but I'm not seeing anything jumping out at me. Odds are it's just a "discrimination against minorities" domestic legislation that would crop up - nothing that's specifically referenced in either of the above (at first glance).

As an American, if I move to England, will have to speak in a British accent?

As an American, if I move to England, will have to speak in a British accent?

Sorry, I couldn't understand, because of your weird accent.

No stamps for you.

Okay, so you've advocated for institutionalised racism, and now you're advocating teaching this racism to children.

Just so we're clear.

What if the scoiety advocates racism against people from the UK?
Which society? Their are societies that do so.
Thats funny coming from an Englishman. Maybe my country should have just left you to the Nazis with that attitude. We shouldnt given you supplies during WWI or WWII either. I mean, its not our fault you couldnt fight.


All you regulars know I love the British and would never make the "Oh yeah, well WWII WE SAVED YOU!" arguement. But seriously. I mean, come on.
Oh come now, we would have one the war without you. The USSR beat ya to Berlin anyway. And we were the only country fighting the huns for ages. You only entered because you got attacked- that's cowardice. In neither war did you fight any where near as much as we did.


Yes well when I'm making a fucking legal argument, I will refrain from labelling him in any way, as the proper way of going about it is to refer to the behaviour, not the person. I would point out he is (under Canadian law,you know just to give you an example) engaging in prohibited forms of discrimination.

In the meantime, I'm going to call him a douchebag (is he? wait, that's inaccurate too, there is no evidence he has douche solution inside him) as well.
Ha, Canada have a law like that? they're bare racist

In my experience, I've seen much more violence and crime perpetrated by white Australians than anyone else, more often than not alcohol fuelled, whereas the violence I've witnessed by immigrants tends to be more anger and poverty-fuelled.

Point made...
Well considering that 95% of the Australian population is caucasian of course we are going to see a larger amount of crime by these people.
Point destroyed.
You know what's funny? What if he was given the same treatment when he immigrated?
He probs was. We weren't so PC back then and people didn't worry about being branded a racist.
Mother's side from Germany, father's side from Ukraine
Lol, and you argue against immigration?
You papist! ;)
:eek: how dare you!?

So, I'd guess that Welshmen and Scotsmen are second-class subjects by your standards (as well as a good lot of Englishmen) since Celts aren't Anglosaxons. Btw, I'm sure that your Queen disagrees, as she's part German.
The Angles were also German. And I was not saying celts and whatnot should be second class citizens. The shop is in England- and someone said about WASP- i meant its important if you're in england.
Actually no, not very impressive, because they lost everything in less than 6 years. Nor did they ever manage to occupy ALL Europe.
Oh and what have the Australians ever done?
By the way, your reasoning implies that:
1.the English are a lesser people because they never managed to occupy Europe for 5 years.
2.the French are a greater people than the Germans: Napoleon occupied most of Europe for more than 5 years.
3.the Russians can be discussed: surely they occupied a good deal of Europe for about 40 years.

Your reasonings are made of fail.
1) The British occupied and area far larger than europe for far longer than g years.
2)I never said the Germans are better than the Frogs.
As an American, if I move to England, will have to speak in a British accent?

No, an American trying to do a British accent is embaressing and offensive.

Oh come now, we would have one the war without you.It's spelled "won" and isn't even the same freaking word.
Sorry, NO STAMPS FOR U!

1) The British occupied and area far larger than europe for far longer than g years.
2)I never said the Germans are better than the Frogs.WTF has force got to do with being better? In fact, it's the weapon of the weak minded, the primitive you know...
You may need to reconsider WW2 in your data also.

No, an American trying to do a British accent is embaressing and offensive.no shit! :eek:

Which society? Their are societies that do so....

It doesn't matter. The point is that if you emigrated to a society where you were expected to be racist against people from the UK would you do it? Yes or no?

As an American, if I move to England, will have to speak in a British accent?
Only to this guy.

It's spelled "won" and isn't even the same freaking word.
Sorry, NO STAMPS FOR U!
Spelling English and Writing English are 2 very different things
WTF has force got to do with being better? In fact, it's the weapon of the weak minded, the primitive you know...
You may need to reconsider WW2 in your data also.

what was inaccurate about it?
It doesn't matter. The point is that if you emigrated to a society where you were expected to be racist against people from the UK would you do it? Yes or no?

No, why would I be racist towards myself?

I agree with you completely. Is he obligated to do this though?

He would by no means obligated, but he should as someone being a proxy provider of a government service make the attempt to bridge that gap if someone is trying.

No we're not.

We are talking about a post office worker. This is very much NOT a private business.
We are furthermore talking about immigrants who know english but know the worker KNOW their mother tongue and talks in the tongue easier for them.

That post office worker is an ass. His point is lost in the douchebaggerry he's doing.

Sorry, but as I pointed out a good few pages back- Post Office Counters Ltd consists of many very private businesses.

Please do not confuse HMPO - which has postmen and postwomen , sorting offices, and delivers the mail with Post Offices which are franchises that sell stamps, cash giros, and weigh parcels. They are completely separate entities. We are not talking about an employee of Her Majesty's Government, but about a private shop keeper.

His point is not lost to those that can actually be bothered to read or listen - to those who can not - well any point would be lost.

I'm stopping you right there. If you are selling state-sponsored lottery and someone not speaking english comes in with a winning ticket, guess what: you can't trun him around for his spoken language.

Hi EC.

Guess what - you can. The winner can claim his prize from any outlet that is willing to serve him or her - and if you don't serve him then the odds are that he or she will spend those winnings elsewhere - your loss but also your right.

So, governmental things like lottery and mail gives you more restriction that a regular private store. The clerk is being an ass.
He is not a clerk - he is the business owner - get that into your head to start with. As it is his business he can choose not to serve customers if he so wishes - with the exception of doing so on racial or gender grounds.


He's not denying service based on nationality but on spoken language. That's discrimination right there. He might want to do something proper and noble but he's not doing it the correct way.

Not attending a request you don't understand - não pode ser nada nem perto de qualquer forma de discriminação. OK. Paraí, enquanto tô qui cê poderia me da uns selos, né?

Or can't you?

That's what we call an example.

Tell that to the Mexicans...>.>

On matters of everyone should run faster or go home, yeah. I understand that some people are dyslexic, but it's an internet excuse now for not knowing the difference between hear/here, their/they're, your/you're, etc. In the same way you don't get to flame people and claim it's because you have aspergers you probably shouldn't bitch about immigrants not learning English fluently in a matter of months when you've had your whole life to learn it both by immersion and free education and you can't figure out grammar, spelling, or usage.

It is not an excuse. Will everyone stop being such dickheads when it comes to my FUCKING spelling. The fact that my point may not be spelt correctly should take nothing away from it.

It is not an excuse. Will everyone stop being such dickheads when it comes to my FUCKING spelling. The fact that my point may not be spelt correctly should take nothing away from it.

Well, most people on the Interwebs have a habit of jumping at any sign of weakness...Like Wolves perhaps...So although it really shouldnt take away from your overall point, it also shouldnt surprise you when it does...

It is not an excuse. Will everyone stop being such dickheads when it comes to my FUCKING spelling. The fact that my point may not be spelt correctly should take nothing away from it.

You spelled 'spelled' wrong. ;)

Well, most people on the Interwebs have a habit of jumping at any sign of weakness...Like Wolves perhaps...So although it really shouldnt take away from your overall point, it also shouldnt surprise you when it does...

Especially when that point is that people ought to learn his language. ;)

Especially when that point is that people ought to learn his language. ;)

Exactly :) lol

Well, most people on the Interwebs have a habit of jumping at any sign of weakness...Like Wolves perhaps...So although it really shouldnt take away from your overall point, it also shouldnt surprise you when it does...No you see, in a normal thread, these shouldn't matter. Since this is a thread about the ENGLISH language, yes we want to be sarcastic :tongue:

As an American, if I move to England, will have to speak in a British accent?

No. This was settled in the land mark Supreme Court of England and Wales case, Madonna v. Everyone in England and Wales, wherein the Honorable Mr. Justice Tugendhat released the following ruling:

"Stop. Just stop. You wretched, foul, spent, leather handbag with eyeballs of a woman. You will stop. For the Queen, for God, for all our sakes you won't do it anymore. And the Sergeant at Arms will kindly take the pistol away from Mr. Ritchie, or at least compel him to remove the weapon from his mouth. And stop crying.

Meh, being Canadian I find it hard to back him up on this one.. I'll hear any number of languages being spoken walking down the street in Vancouver, and I wouldn't attribute the faults of my nation to multi-lingualism.. Granted, Canada and Britain have different histories regarding this issue, but I still don't see how this should be a big deal.. Noone is campaigning to have English replaced as the official tongue of Britain.

I do support the bill that is being pushed through Parliment requiring immigrants to speak english (fluently?) in order to recieve citizenship, though.

You spelled 'spelled' wrong. ;)

That's actually proper spelling in Britain.

I've had a quick glance, but I'm not seeing anything jumping out at me. Odds are it's just a "discrimination against minorities" domestic legislation that would crop up - nothing that's specifically referenced in either of the above (at first glance).

Unless you want to claim a violation of Article 8 (1)
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

...but I'm guessing that it never would get that far. There's probably something in the agreement between the govt. and the private company that stipulates that they don't have the right to refuse service. And possibly some national legislation against discrimination. (If not, that could be in violation of Council Directive 2000/43/EC implementing the principle of equal treatment between persons irrespective of racial or ethnic origin, or go against the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination - though the former is more likely than the latter, I suspect.)

That's actually proper spelling in Britain.

Like we'd let Britain dictate how to spell words in English...

Psh, lol...

I know!

They don't say "Grave, the most helpful guy on NSG" for nothing.




No really, they don't say it - and they do it for nothing.

At least you're not known for sporting cat ears and going "nya!" around the forum.:wink:

BUt this serves you right. Stop being helpful!

European Countries have far more culture and history than the new world. And we colonized the fuck out of it- thus proving that we are superior.
You use the British education system free of charge, so I would not criticize it so readily next time.

Sozzles, but to be fair I wasn't attacking the poster- I was merely stating that the Brazilian people did nothing when they were invaded

I am a British citizen, so I can criticise Britain as much as I damn well like (and take full advantage of that right, as it happens).

Why does Europe have more culture? Hell, define culture. And how is there more history - if we're going by that measure, then China, the Middle East, or Africa all have stronger claims. I'm still not quite sure how you get from "colonised" to "superior", so if you could just expand on how military force and economic exploitation is a superior moral position, that would be grand.

So now there are no White or Black people? what world are you living in?

The Modern one. I would question what world you are living in, if you think that `racial' differences make for any sort of meaningful distinction between people, beyond the amount of suntan lotion they need to buy.

In case you missed it, the point I was making was that all of these differences are artificial and meaningless distinctions - that humans are one body, not a bunch of divided factions.

Oh come now, we would have one the war without you. The USSR beat ya to Berlin anyway. And we were the only country fighting the huns for ages. You only entered because you got attacked- that's cowardice. In neither war did you fight any where near as much as we did.

Complete nonsense. Rerun WWII without any American involvement and Britain would get invaded in early 1940. Without the massive economic support that the USA provided for the British during the early stages of the war, the Germans would have been quite easily able to crush the RAF and invade.

That's actually proper spelling in Britain.

Not that much anymore, I wish to point out.

Well mine would never be revoked then as I would not commit High Treason. I love the Monarchy.

And it is not just a bit of paper that makes you British. And I'll doubt you'll find illegals who pay taxes or obey the same laws I do.

Then what the fuck does? Is there some essential Britishness, inherent to all those born into the British nation, and inaccessible to any others? If so, what does that include?

Furthermore, illegals = immigrants does not imply that immigrants = illegals.

Meow

Sorry about that. The cat got to my computer. Silly kitty. :p

I'd just like if we could get the majority of English people to speak proper English.

I'd just like if we could get the majority of English people to speak proper English.

This reminds me of something my Differential Equations prof once said to us:

"I'm sorry, I can't truthfully answer your questions about Russian history. I was educated in Russia."

I do support the bill that is being pushed through Parliment requiring immigrants to speak english (fluently?) in order to recieve citizenship, though.

Strange, I'm checking the Parliament website because I want to see the act that you're talking about and I'm not finding anything. If it's been through at least one reading in this current session of the House of Commons, the Senate or in committee, I should have been able to find the act concerning the topic you mention. I found nothing.

I'm looking under the 40th Parliament, 2nd session and I don't see this.

Now, even if it did exist, the law would promote an equitable issue over language, as French is also recognised as an official language and your wording would give it lesser priority, even though it has been accepted as one of two languages previously required for citizen.

One bill I found pursuant to the topic of immigration, was Bill C-254, which would amendment s.38(2)(b) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDoc/cs/I-2.5///en)...

(2) Paragraph (1)(c) does not apply in the case of a foreign national who

(b) has applied for a permanent resident visa as a Convention refugee or a person in similar circumstances;


...by adding in the following section:

"(b.1) has been approved under a provincial nominee program;"

Then there was Bill C-291 (http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=3650883&file=4), which would amend the same act, but a different section; section 275 would be subject to a sub-section.

Neither of these cover the area you mention.

The next bill, Bill C-307 (http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Docid=3661337&file=4), is a language bill, to amend the Official Languages Act (Charter of the French Language), but it covers the French language and seeks to amend legislation not related to immigration and citizenship, so it doesn't apply here.

Bills before the House of Commons (http://www.parl.gc.ca/legisinfo/index.asp?Language=E&List=list&Type=3&Chamber=C&StartList=201&EndList=1000&Session=22) - Private member bills
Bills before the House of Commons (http://www.parl.gc.ca/legisinfo/index.asp?Language=E&List=list&Type=0&Chamber=C&StartList=2&EndList=200&Session=22) - Government bills

Bills before the Senate (http://www.parl.gc.ca/legisinfo/index.asp?Language=E&List=list&Type=3&Chamber=S&StartList=201&EndList=1000&Session=22) - Senate Public bills
Bills before the Senate ("http://www.parl.gc.ca/legisinfo/index.asp?Language=E&List=list&Type=1&Chamber=S&StartList=2&EndList=200&Session=22') - Government bills

You may also want to browse over the Postal Services Act 2000, Section 4 'universal service' is fairly important.

I read this, and it makes no reference to any situation where a customer cannot speak the language of the employees.

I'm stopping you right there. If you are selling state-sponsored lottery and someone not speaking english comes in with a winning ticket, guess what: you can't trun him around for his spoken language.

Wrong. No state-sponsored lottery dealer (in the US) is required to cash a winning ticket (in fact, if the winnings are over $500, they must be redeemed through government channels). Even though I wasn't referring to cashing in tickets at all, I was referring to the sale of them. And my main point was that a reasonable person would not expect, in a foreign company, to receive intricate levels of service from someone if they do not speak in that country's language. I think you're on shaky ground and you're starting to use some pretty flimsy justifications.

So, governmental things like lottery and mail gives you more restriction that a regular private store. The clerk is being an ass.

Your projecting your own emotions here. This shop owner has a lot of things to deal with, especially if there is a long line no one is going to tolerate a game of charades, nor should they. It's not an issue of "being an ass." It's an issue of expecting too much. The vast majority of the people who were temporarily denied service didn't have an issue with it - they went away, got the help they needed, and came back.



That's what we call an example, boy. (or girl.)

He's not denying service based on nationality but on spoken language. That's discrimination right there. He might want to do something proper and noble but he's not doing it the correct way.

That's what we call an example, boy. (or girl.) And it was done less than 40 years ago.


I'm not sure why, but I feel this repeated phrase is a little insulting, since it clearly seeks to denigrate my age. I'm almost thirty by the way. In any case, the problem is that your "examples" have little to to with real life or the situation at hand - you're just venting against someone who hasn't done anything wrong, for a reason that isn't immediately apparent to me or 70% of the people on this board.

If I don't speak your language, my inability to help you is not discrimination. I may or may not feel apologetic about it. If you're being an ass like this, I defnitely won't.



No there are not. Just as there are not valid reason you should learn french before coming to Montreal.

This phrase doesn't make sense. There are a lot of valid reasons you should learn French before coming to Montreal. I took a stab at it. A lot of things are reciprocal, but you can't (for example) come down to a state in the U.S. and expect everyone to speak the language you choose to speak. It's self centered and unrealistic. I certainly wouldn't expect you to speak English, though I'm pleased that for the sake of global commerce you do.

At least you're not known for sporting cat ears and going "nya!" around the forum.:wink:


True this. Apparently, however, I have earned myself something of a reputation for saying bad words, though.

And I keep the cat ears secret.... I mean... don't wear them....

:D

You spelled 'spelled' wrong. ;)
Er, no I didnn't. WTF is spelled anyway? It just sounds retarded.
Especially when that point is that people ought to learn his language. ;)

No you see, in a normal thread, these shouldn't matter. Since this is a thread about the ENGLISH language, yes we want to be sarcastic :tongue:
As I have already said this thread is about a man not serving people who don't speak English, no write it.
Like we'd let Britain dictate how to spell words in English...

Psh, lol...
lol.
You guys do make a mockery of the English language.

I am a British citizen, so I can criticise Britain as much as I damn well like (and take full advantage of that right, as it happens).
You don't have to be a British citizen to criticize the UK. Just like I don't have to be American to criticize them. Or Indian for that matter.
Why does Europe have more culture? Hell, define culture. And how is there more history - if we're going by that measure, then China, the Middle East, or Africa all have stronger claims. I'm still not quite sure how you get from "colonised" to "superior", so if you could just expand on how military force and economic exploitation is a superior moral position, that would be grand.
Europe has given the most to world in the way of arts, languages, science and many more things. Like leading the industrial revaloution and spreading our languages around the world.
The fact that we were able to colonize you shows we are superior.

The Modern one. I would question what world you are living in, if you think that `racial' differences make for any sort of meaningful distinction between people, beyond the amount of suntan lotion they need to buy.

Race has nothing to do with speaking English. They're black people who speak it better than white people. And not all immigrants are not white, in fact most of them probably are white.
In case you missed it, the point I was making was that all of these differences are artificial and meaningless distinctions - that humans are one body, not a bunch of divided factions.
Bullocks. Humans have always been divided.


Complete nonsense. Rerun WWII without any American involvement and Britain would get invaded in early 1940. Without the massive economic support that the USA provided for the British during the early stages of the war, the Germans would have been quite easily able to crush the RAF and invade. We could have got enough from the empire anyway. And Operation Sea Lion would never have been a success, considering the Germans were awfully lead and had their orders changed all the time.



Not that much anymore, I wish to point out.
Well it should be, I'm sick of the Americanising of words.


Then what the fuck does? Is there some essential Britishness, inherent to all those born into the British nation, and inaccessible to any others? If so, what does that include?
I believe You and I have had this argument before. It is hard to describe what Britishness is, but it is certainly not the citizenship test. I have taken it and it is piss easy. And considering they have lessons on it beforehand anyway -it undermines the whole thing.
Furthermore, illegals = immigrants does not imply that immigrants = illegals.
I never said it did, I was saying that illegals do not pay taxes or follow laws.

The fact that we were able to colonize you shows we are superior.

Well it should be, I'm sick of the Americanising of words.
I suggest you read the Merriam–Webster Dictionary more often then.

You don't have to be a British citizen to criticize the UK. Just like I don't have to be American to criticize them. Or Indian for that matter.

Then why did you tell me not to criticise it so readily?


Europe has given the most to world in the way of arts, languages, science and many more things. Like leading the industrial revaloution and spreading our languages around the world.
The fact that we were able to colonize you shows we are superior.

In the way of languages, Europe only has a few dozen. There are islands with more languages than the whole of Europe (see PNG). For the arts, every civilisation has long and well developed traditions, and Europe certainly doesn't have some definite claim to superiority there. For science, Europe had to build on the shoulders of the Arab world, while much more of it is now done in America.

Again, I call for you to explain to me how the ability to militarily oppress another people translates into moral superiority.


Race has nothing to do with speaking English. They're black people who speak it better than white people. And not all immigrants are not white, in fact most of them probably are white.

I wasn't talking about speaking English, I was talking about artificial divisions in humanity. And you beautifully conceded my point, by stating that race doesn't matter. If race doesn't matter, why should someone give a damn what race I am? Why should they mistrust me, or trust me, or hate me, or try to motivate their `race' to kill me?

As I said: race is meaningless, religion is meaningless, country of origin is meaningless, nationhood is meaningless, hell, the whole idea of countries is an outdated fiction.


Bullocks. Humans have always been divided.

Humans have always murdered each other too, but that doesn't make murder a good thing.

People might not recognise they are all the same, all one body of humanity, but that's not necessarily right. They are the same, they have just been brought up into believing in these differences, believing that it matters where you are born, who you are born to, which God you worship, what football team you support. They have been brought up to believe that these are important, that the people who disagree with you are a mysterious `them', while those who agree are a mysterious `us', and we are right and they are wrong. These stupid beliefs have been involved in 90% of the wars through human history, either as a cause, or used by leaders to justify war. It's time we as a species moved on.


We could have got enough from the empire anyway. And Operation Sea Lion would never have been a success, considering the Germans were awfully lead and had their orders changed all the time.

No. America gave vast economic, industrial, and agricultural support to Britain throughout the early years of the war. Without this, the Brits would likely not have had the resources to win the Battle of Britain, and would definitely have been defeated with time.


Well it should be, I'm sick of the Americanising of words.

"criticize", "colonise"


I believe You and I have had this argument before. It is hard to describe what Britishness is, but it is certainly not the citizenship test. I have taken it and it is piss easy. And considering they have lessons on it beforehand anyway -it undermines the whole thing.

Well, if you cannot define what Britishness is, you cannot point to what Britishness is, and the only suggestion we have is the test required for citizenship, it seems to me that Britishness is simply a meaningless concept.


I never said it did, I was saying that illegals do not pay taxes or follow laws.

Which is irrelevant in a discussion about legal immigrants, which is what Londim was talking about.

I'm going to define what 'Britishness' means to me.

'Britishness' is going to the pub, meeting people from all backgrounds and the having the choice to get a meal which has an origin from a different part of the world. 'Britishness is the mixing of the old British society and the input of immigrants. It is the forwarding of society through a mix of cultures, not one singular one.

Hell, you can take this definition and plant it on a number of nations because that is how the world is now moving forward.

What you, Ring of Isengard, seem to be wanting is a time similar to pre Civil Rights America, where segregation was rife, where you could be banned from some shops because of skin colour or language.

That is what you are telling me I should be like in the society you dream of, a fellow citizen of this nation and you also say my grandparents should be treated worse than that, also citizens of this nation.

To me you, while advocating 'Britishness' are one of the people holding it back.

EDIT

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7956570.stm

Mr "If you don't speak English, I won't serve you" has left his job.

EDIT

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7956570.stm

Mr "If you don't speak English, I won't serve you" has left his job.

Not exactly unexpected... good news, anyway. :)

Mr "If you don't speak English, I won't serve you" has left his job.

Good. If he's bigoted against immigrants, he has no business working.

Anywhere.

Europe has given the most to world in the way of arts, languages, science and many more things. Like leading the industrial revaloution and spreading our languages around the world.

Define "the most". And considering that Europe pretty much stole its art and science from much of the rest of the world really goes a long way to showing how ignorant of the past you are. Also, plenty of other regions have amazing art, which is just as complex and beautiful than even the most intricate as European art. What's more, this is purely a subjective answer, not an objective response. As for the language bit, how you can really deem that as anything worthwhile, I have no idea.


The fact that we were able to colonize you shows we are superior.

Might makes right. Yup, not racist in the least.


Race has nothing to do with speaking English. They're black people who speak it better than white people. And not all immigrants are not white, in fact most of them probably are white.


If you're making an argument for English, you should really work on your skills. "They're" is a contraction which means "they are". "They are black who speak it better than white people" is nonsensical. The correct usage is "There are". I'm really not trying to be a grammar nazi, but come on. You're saying that immigrants should speak down-right perfect English, but you, a Native speaker, are having difficulties with the basics.


Bullocks. Humans have always been divided.

As the poster indicated, these division are culturally bound, not intrinsic parts of human beings. We create these divisions. The divisions are purely arbitrary, and change as the times change.


Well it should be, I'm sick of the Americanising of words.

Many of the words were changed subtly to eliminate confusion and create a more cohesive language. Other were changed to reduce the overall clunkiness of the language, and other, admittedly, were changed arbitrarily. The major problem with English, as a whole, is that it borrows heavily from other languages. This has created a confusing language, with rules that can be very difficult to understand, as there are often many exceptions.


I believe You and I have had this argument before. It is hard to describe what Britishness is, but it is certainly not the citizenship test. I have taken it and it is piss easy. And considering they have lessons on it beforehand anyway -it undermines the whole thing.

If you cannot describe what "Britishness" is, then how do you expect immigrants to become your ideal "Brit"? You yourself don't know what it is, so how can you expect others to become that ideal? It's a wholly unreasonable argument.


I never said it did, I was saying that illegals do not pay taxes or follow laws.

I don't know about Britain, but the US, many most assuredly do. It's really a misconception that they don't(To both the not paying taxes and not following the law).

True this. Apparently, however, I have earned myself something of a reputation for saying bad words, though.

Potty mouthed, English speaker.

And I keep the cat ears secret.... I mean... don't wear them....

:D

Reveal your true nature, fiend!

:tongue:

Good. If he's bigoted against immigrants, he has no business working.

Anywhere.

Why? He can work if he wants, and we can give him the ostracism he so richly deserves.

There are idiots from all walks of life and all countries.

Good. If he's bigoted against immigrants, he has no business working.

Anywhere.
Go back and read the original story: He is an immigrant, himself, but he has integrated into local society...


ANYWAY_
Best immigrant into Britain ever? Jenny Jerome, the American heiress who marrried Lord Randolph Churchill... because she was Winston's mother. ;)

The US needs more people like Mr. Sumarasiri in the US especially in California. Too many damn Illegal immigrants here who refuse to speak American(US English).

Then why did you tell me not to criticise it so readily?

Don't Bite the hand that feeds you is all that I'm saying.


In the way of languages, Europe only has a few dozen. There are islands with more languages than the whole of Europe (see PNG). For the arts, every civilisation has long and well developed traditions, and Europe certainly doesn't have some definite claim to superiority there. For science, Europe had to build on the shoulders of the Arab world, while much more of it is now done in America.

I could write you a list as long as my arm about European art, music and languages. But I Couldn't do the same for arabic. Could you?

Again, I call for you to explain to me how the ability to militarily oppress another people translates into moral superiority.
Not moral superiority specificly, superior in general


I wasn't talking about speaking English, I was talking about artificial divisions in humanity. And you beautifully conceded my point, by stating that race doesn't matter. If race doesn't matter, why should someone give a damn what race I am? Why should they mistrust me, or trust me, or hate me, or try to motivate their `race' to kill me?
Have I ever done any of those things? No.

As I said: race is meaningless, religion is meaningless, country of origin is meaningless, nationhood is meaningless, hell, the whole idea of countries is an outdated fiction.

None of things are meaningless. They make people feel like they belong to something, it's their heritage- does heritage mean nothing to you? Are you honestly saying that none of those things mean anything to you.

Humans have always murdered each other too, but that doesn't make murder a good thing.

Not good, natural


No. America gave vast economic, industrial, and agricultural support to Britain throughout the early years of the war. Without this, the Brits would likely not have had the resources to win the Battle of Britain, and would definitely have been defeated with time.

I know that we may possibly have lost the war without the economic aid, but we would have won anyway. The only difference is that the Russians would have far more say in the running of Europe than they did.


"criticize", "colonise"

It's my spell checker, its in US English and I don't know how to change it. If it says something's wrong I change it. It is shit.
*waits for someone to make a smartass comment about my speling being terrible even whith a spell checker*



Define "the most". And considering that Europe pretty much stole its art and science from much of the rest of the world really goes a long way to showing how ignorant of the past you are. Also, plenty of other regions have amazing art, which is just as complex and beautiful than even the most intricate as European art. What's more, this is purely a subjective answer, not an objective response. As for the language bit, how you can really deem that as anything worthwhile, I have no idea.

We didn't steal it from other cultures- we just borrowed it without asking. The fact is that these places may have great art, but they have never been pushed to the front of peoples attention like european art.

Might makes right. Yup, not racist in the least.

:confused:


If you're making an argument for English, you should really work on your skills. "They're" is a contraction which means "they are". "They are black who speak it better than white people" is nonsensical. The correct usage is "There are". I'm really not trying to be a grammar nazi, but come on. You're saying that immigrants should speak down-right perfect English, but you, a Native speaker, are having difficulties with the basics.
How many times do I have to say that speaking English is not the same as writing it.


Many of the words were changed subtly to eliminate confusion and create a more cohesive language. Other were changed to reduce the overall clunkiness of the language, and other, admittedly, were changed arbitrarily. The major problem with English, as a whole, is that it borrows heavily from other languages. This has created a confusing language, with rules that can be very difficult to understand, as there are often many exceptions.
Well it's a hard enough language as it is without some yanks changing every thing. And it's not just the spelling, they just change word willy-nilly. I mean WTF are pants all about?

If you cannot describe what "Britishness" is, then how do you expect immigrants to become your ideal "Brit"? You yourself don't know what it is, so how can you expect others to become that ideal? It's a wholly unreasonable argument.
Well they can start by learning English.


I don't know about Britain, but the US, many most assuredly do. It's really a misconception that they don't(To both the not paying taxes and not following the law).
What? This is soooo contradictory- They do not follow the law- they're illegal immigrants. I don't know if you know this but beinging one of those is against the law.
Also, how do they pay taxes- don't you have to get a national insurence number to do that?
Good. If he's bigoted against immigrants, he has no business working.

Anywhere.
Man, you argue that immigrants should have equal opportunities and then you go and say something like that? The word hypocrite springs to mind.

Europe has given the most to world in the way of arts, languages, science and many more things. Like leading the industrial revaloution and spreading our languages around the world.
The fact that we were able to colonize you shows we are superior.

So you are saying that Muslims were superior to Europeans during the Islamic Golden age and European Dark Ages, since they had "better" science and culture in that time?


Well it should be, I'm sick of the Americanising of words.

You were just talking about the internationalization of English.

So you are saying that Muslims were superior to Europeans during the Islamic Golden age and European Dark Ages, since they had "better" science and culture in that time?


We dont believe in Ebil Mozlem science...Only good Christian Values...

We dont believe in Ebil Mozlem science...Only good Christian Values...

I guess chemistry, logic, astronomy and scientific method are all heretical then.

I could write you a list as long as my arm about European art, music and languages. But I Couldn't do the same for arabic. Could you?

I wonder if maybe a diligent and accomplished student in arabic studies could.


We didn't steal it from other cultures- we just borrowed it without asking.

Race Poe?


The fact is that these places may have great art, but they have never been pushed to the front of peoples attention like european art.

So, its not the greatness of the art, but the ability to have it pushed in front of people to get their attention? Doesn't sound very "superior".

Not moral superiority specificly, superior in general

So... not moral superiority.

Evidently not superiority of language or ability to communicate.

What kind of superiority, then?


It's my spell checker, its in US English and I don't know how to change it. If it says something's wrong I change it. It is shit.
*waits for someone to make a smartass comment about my speling being terrible even whith a spell checker*


You need a spell checker to remember to put periods at the end of your sentences?

...again, remind me which kind of superiority it is your culture (and by extension, you specifically) have?

It's not that I'm a smart-ass (better than being a dumb ass, however), but you seem to deliberately open yourself up to critical evaluation when you trumpet the overwhelming superiority of your culture, your way of life, your everything.

And believe me, just because you fail the "is this an obvious and pathetic example of hypocrisy" test does not make me a smart-ass. Far from it, I'm being rather pedantic and stating the obvious.

Not good, natural

See what I mean? This is Basic English here. Periods at the end of sentences. I know many immigrants who have grasped this very simple concept, and yet you have not. Now why is that, I wonder?

How many times do I have to say that speaking English is not the same as writing it.

What a weak excuse for a lack of basic literacy. Next you'll be saying that speaking English is not the same as speaking English with an accent and thus cruelly forcing you to actually pay attention.

Well it's a hard enough language as it is without some yanks changing every thing. And it's not just the spelling, they just change word willy-nilly. I mean WTF are pants all about?

Oh, now we blame the "yanks;" how stereotypically British you are. Unfortunately, the United States of America did not enslave you and force you to blurt out incomplete sentences, spatter improper or sometimes completely absent punctuation, and spell basic words with a poorer consistency than most ESL students I've ever known.

And they didn't make you dribble out this laughable comment to top it all off:

Well they can start by learning English.

I mean - LOL.

Now I'm sure you'll pass it off as you just being too lazy (this being the Internet) to use, for example, the period. (I understand it is very taxing to extend your finger to hit that extra key!)

But if so, it is indicative of your lazy-thinking; an entitled, sheltered and slovenly way of seeing the world. You blame others for everything, take credit for everything good, and are utterly convinced (despite the utter lack of reason) of your own superiority.

It's contemptible, laughable, and falls flat on its face.


The word hypocrite springs to mind.

Physician, heal thyself.

I guess chemistry, logic, astronomy and scientific method are all heretical then.

Its true.

I was doing a titration the other day, and got posessed.

I'm going to define what 'Britishness' means to me.

'Britishness' is going to the pub, meeting people from all backgrounds and the having the choice to get a meal which has an origin from a different part of the world. 'Britishness is the mixing of the old British society and the input of immigrants. It is the forwarding of society through a mix of cultures, not one singular one.

Hell, you can take this definition and plant it on a number of nations because that is how the world is now moving forward.

What you, Ring of Isengard, seem to be wanting is a time similar to pre Civil Rights America, where segregation was rife, where you could be banned from some shops because of skin colour or language.

That is what you are telling me I should be like in the society you dream of, a fellow citizen of this nation and you also say my grandparents should be treated worse than that, also citizens of this nation.

To me you, while advocating 'Britishness' are one of the people holding it back.

EDIT

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7956570.stm

Mr "If you don't speak English, I won't serve you" has left his job.

I do like having my post skipped RoI...

Come on. Address the part where I believe you want a segregated nation with less civil rights for those not deemed 'superior'.

Please tell me if that is the kind of society you are proposing or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Don't Bite the hand that feeds you is all that I'm saying.

Pfft. As Einstein said, "a witty saying proves nothing" (and "any statement can be made more impressive by attributing it to someone important").


I could write you a list as long as my arm about European art, music and languages. But I Couldn't do the same for arabic. Could you?

No, not offhand. I could list some excellent and incredible works, in literature, art, and science, but probably not as much as I could list from Europe. This might be because I've been brought up in European culture, not because there was less work done there.


Not moral superiority specificly, superior in general

Define the difference then. You've only managed to make an argument for military superiority, basically.


Have I ever done any of those things? No.

Never said you had. I said that you still believed differences between people had some sort of meaning, and argued that they did not, and that this belief had lead to many evils over the course of human history.


None of things are meaningless. They make people feel like they belong to something, it's their heritage- does heritage mean nothing to you? Are you honestly saying that none of those things mean anything to you.

Let's run down the original list I made, shall I? I listed race, religion, country of origin, and patriotism. So then:

Race: I consider it completely meaningless. The fact that my skin is white and a friend's skin is black doesn't make a difference to how I treat them, and never should. They are not less intelligent than me due to their race, more athletic due to their race, or anything else.

Religion: I'm a Christian. I don't care what faith anyone else follows, and don't try and push my faith on them. I don't limit my friends to just other Christians, hurl abuse at Jews, or suspect Muslims of being suicide bombers.

Country of Origin: I'm a British and American citizen, and was born in Pakistan. That I consider countries meaningless should be fairly obvious from that. I don't think myself better than someone else because of my passport or my birth certificate.

Patriotism: I consider it a backwards ideal, probably because of my view on countries. To quote Ursula K. LeGuin: "No, I don't mean love, when I say patriotism. I mean fear. The fear of the other. And its expressions are political, not poetical: hate, rivalry, aggression".

That is quite a nice quote, as it happens, to apply to all of these. Yes, humans have differences. Indeed, every human is completely different from every other. But these differences are irrelevant. Every time we divide humanity along one of these differences, form ourselves into a group based on some characteristic, we invoke the fear of the others for unity. This manifests most obviously in hate crimes, but stretches its insidious tentacles far further: the ordinary man who goes and protests about "those damn Pakis diluting our British culture" has been hoodwinked into believing that these differences actually matter.


Not good, natural

Pfft. Murder is nearly universally seen as a moral evil, something to be condemned. So should this exploitation of difference, these inherently meaningless and artificial distinctions. After all, they lead to hatred, abuse, murder, rape, and genocide, depending on how far they are taken. Anything which causes that should be abandoned by any society which attempts to claim civilisation.


I know that we may possibly have lost the war without the economic aid, but we would have won anyway. The only difference is that the Russians would have far more say in the running of Europe than they did.

Need I point out the contradiction in your sentence there?


We didn't steal it from other cultures- we just borrowed it without asking. The fact is that these places may have great art, but they have never been pushed to the front of peoples attention like european art.


Aha, and now we hit the crux. Due to military domination and economic exploitation, European culture has become incredibly widespread. But that doesn't make it the one which has given most to the world. Indeed, I would contend that this sheer universality has diminished the world, shrinking the sphere of other art that can be feasibly made in many places. The same, of course, applies to the dominance of English as a language. Nothing can be perfectly translated, between languages or cultures. And as a single monoculture takes over, the full breathtaking range of human expression becomes limited, canned, stunted, the same layer of consumerism repeated again and again and again, no flesh or blood or living soul.

I do like having my post skipped RoI...

Come on. Address the part where I believe you want a segregated nation with less civil rights for those not deemed 'superior'.

Please tell me if that is the kind of society you are proposing or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

He wants me kicked out of the country, because I was born in Pakistan. In short, it is.

RoI: Just out of interest, do you think that all immigrants should be kicked out?

Pfft. As Einstein said, "a witty saying proves nothing" (and "any statement can be made more impressive by attributing it to someone important").

I do believe I see what you did there.

He wants me kicked out of the country, because I was born in Pakistan. In short, it is.

RoI: Just out of interest, do you think that all immigrants should be kicked out?

That's terrible enough. He wants me to become a 2nd class citizen even though I was born in the UK as I don't have British Ancestry.

I do believe I see what you did there.

*looks shifty*

That's terrible enough. He wants me to become a 2nd class citizen even though I was born in the UK as I don't have British Ancestry.

Yes, I saw. Horrendous.

I'm just going to post this up, as some sections of it are relevant to our current discussion, and it's fantastic anyway. It's from Zenarchy (http://www.impropaganda.net/1997/zenarchy6.html), which is a highly interesting (if very idiosyncratic) read. Many sections here are incredibly relevant to modern Britain.


Validation: A Stoned Sermon

Cultures that validate their elders possess wise old people; cultures that invalidate them have senile old ones.
Cultures that validate sexuality enjoy clean, healthy and beautiful erotic play; societies that invalidate it have dirty, exploitive commercial smut.
Societies that validate women possess strong, serene and intelligent females; societies that invalidate them suffer dumb broads and bitches.
Societies that validate children possess cheerful, wise and responsible youth; societies that invalidate them end up with delinquents and brats.
A culture that validates its ethnic minorities boasts of rich pockets of exotic cultural variety; a society that invalidates them is divided between drab suburbs on one hand and filthy ghettos on the other.
Validation is not automatic agreement with someone you think is wrong. All forms of flattery are deceptive and, hence, invalidating.
Validation is treating someone with a respect that assumes that if they are given enough information, they'll use it with their minds. Conversely, if someone is acting weird or pissed off or self-destructive, validating attitudes assume there is a reason. Usually such people are oppressed. A validating approach assumes that if everyone will just get off their backs not many will have to help them.
A derivative of Natural Law in our legal system is the assumption of innocence until guilt is proven. When, as individuals, we keep that much in mind while at the same time searching for the reasons for offensive behavior, then our attitude toward others is validation. The opposite view assumes that everyone is a social invalid until they prove they aren't. That is why so-called law and order attitudes are frequently coupled with racism and sexism. Assumptions about others are important because our expectations often mold their response.

Lol, Omar Khayyem Ravenhurst.


Incidentally, UvV, you can revive your nation yourself.

It's my spell checker, its in US English and I don't know how to change it. If it says something's wrong I change it. It is shit.

What are you using for a browser?

That's terrible enough. He wants me to become a 2nd class citizen even though I was born in the UK as I don't have British Ancestry.

What would that mean to someone of about 2/5 British ancestry (English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and Cornish) not born in the UK? I'm more in line with UvV's line of thought, for the record. But since it works one way, does it work the other way?

Incidentally, UvV, you can revive your nation yourself.

You can, but if you then try to go on the forums with it, you may find yourself suspended between Heaven and Hell, unable to post as yourself while knowing that you have risen from Lazarus.

You can try getting a mod to send you another validation e-mail, but that doesn't always work. There's a glitch somewhere in the forum/game interface. I've lost two of my pet puppets that way.

The word for now is: yes, revive your nation, but be aware that you're taking a risk trying to get it back on the forums, and mods can't always fix it. You may be better off posting as "MyNation Resurgite", or whatever, and linking to your original in your sig.

/OT public service announcement.

You can, but if you then try to go on the forums with it, you may find yourself suspended between Heaven and Hell, unable to post as yourself while knowing that you have risen from Lazarus.

You can try getting a mod to send you another validation e-mail, but that doesn't always work. There's a glitch somewhere in the forum/game interface. I've lost two of my pet puppets that way.

The word for now is: yes, revive your nation, but be aware that you're taking a risk trying to get it back on the forums, and mods can't always fix it. You may be better off posting as "MyNation Resurgite", or whatever, and linking to your original in your sig.

/OT public service announcement.
It works fine for me now.

I dug up Bryce from the graveyard, and returned him in his holy region again to cleanse him of the underworld. But alas, like a wandering soul who could only see the world but not communicate with it, Bryce can only view the forums, but he can't post in it. Despite all the validations he purportedly received, and suppressing the nagging thought to haunt a mod about this problem, he didn't really do anything to be able to be able to post again. It's like... a miracle! One day when Bryce was logged on again, he went to the forums, but on the way, he got an error that said that a brand-spanking-new validation email is waiting for him! Thank God it was not a failure of a validation, again. Bryce was able to cross that glitchy forum/game interface! :p

Perhaps those two puppets can still post... It might just work again... I didn't do anything to make it work, unless it was a mod's secret hand.......:tongue:

You can, but if you then try to go on the forums with it, you may find yourself suspended between Heaven and Hell, unable to post as yourself while knowing that you have risen from Lazarus.

You can try getting a mod to send you another validation e-mail, but that doesn't always work. There's a glitch somewhere in the forum/game interface. I've lost two of my pet puppets that way.

The word for now is: yes, revive your nation, but be aware that you're taking a risk trying to get it back on the forums, and mods can't always fix it. You may be better off posting as "MyNation Resurgite", or whatever, and linking to your original in your sig.

/OT public service announcement.

And just to finish off this little OT hijack, UvV is a lot harder for people to mess up when typing. Hence this will likely be staying as my forum face from now on.

So you are saying that Muslims were superior to Europeans during the Islamic Golden age and European Dark Ages, since they had "better" science and culture in that time?

Yep.
I wonder if maybe a diligent and accomplished student in arabic studies could.

They probably could, you know any?


So... not moral superiority.

Evidently not superiority of language or ability to communicate.

What kind of superiority, then?

Power and influence.

You need a spell checker to remember to put periods at the end of your sentences?
Wow, you guys call them periods? That's fucked up. I don't think I missed out any Full Stops.


It's not that I'm a smart-ass (better than being a dumb ass, however), but you seem to deliberately open yourself up to critical evaluation when you trumpet the overwhelming superiority of your culture, your way of life, your everything.
I still don't see why I am criticised and not my culture.
P.S In many ways it's better to be a dumb ass.



What a weak excuse for a lack of basic literacy. Next you'll be saying that speaking English is not the same as speaking English with an accent and thus cruelly forcing you to actually pay attention
What? That seems entirely irrelevant and random.


Oh, now we blame the "yanks;" how stereotypically British you are. Unfortunately, the United States of America did not enslave you and force you to blurt out incomplete sentences, spatter improper or sometimes completely absent punctuation, and spell basic words with a poorer consistency than most ESL students I've ever known.
Stereotipicly British? What's that suposed to mean.
Like the stereotypical American is fat and stupid?




I mean - LOL.

Now I'm sure you'll pass it off as you just being too lazy (this being the Internet) to use, for example, the period. (I understand it is very taxing to extend your finger to hit that extra key!)
What? Again I did not miss a "period".

But if so, it is indicative of your lazy-thinking; an entitled, sheltered and slovenly way of seeing the world. You blame others for everything, take credit for everything good, and are utterly convinced (despite the utter lack of reason) of your own superiority.
Not my own superiority, my cultures superiority.


I'm going to define what 'Britishness' means to me.

'Britishness' is going to the pub, meeting people from all backgrounds and the having the choice to get a meal which has an origin from a different part of the world. 'Britishness is the mixing of the old British society and the input of immigrants. It is the forwarding of society through a mix of cultures, not one singular one.

Hell, you can take this definition and plant it on a number of nations because that is how the world is now moving forward.
Forward!? Are you serious?

What you, Ring of Isengard, seem to be wanting is a time similar to pre Civil Rights America, where segregation was rife, where you could be banned from some shops because of skin colour or language.
No, not segregation- deportation. Before you get all offended- not due to skin colour, due to nationality.
That is what you are telling me I should be like in the society you dream of, a fellow citizen of this nation and you also say my grandparents should be treated worse than that, also citizens of this nation.
Were they born here? Where their parents born here.
To me you, while advocating 'Britishness' are one of the people holding it back.
How are they holding it back? In what we is being patriotic holding the country back?
EDIT

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7956570.stm

Mr "If you don't speak English, I won't serve you" has left his job.
Lol.
Pfft. As Einstein said, "a witty saying proves nothing" (and "any statement can be made more impressive by attributing it to someone important").

Einstein also said that " Nationalism is a cancer of humanity". The guy wasn't as bright as everyone thinks.

No, not offhand. I could list some excellent and incredible works, in literature, art, and science, but probably not as much as I could list from Europe. This might be because I've been brought up in European culture, not because there was less work done there.
I never said less work was done their, perhaps lesser works.


Define the difference then. You've only managed to make an argument for military superiority, basically.
Back then that was all you needed.


Never said you had. I said that you still believed differences between people had some sort of meaning, and argued that they did not, and that this belief had lead to many evils over the course of human history.
And none of these evils have been or will be started by me. So what's your point. If you are implying that I want any of these thing you are deeply mistaken. I just want Britain to remain British.


Let's run down the original list I made, shall I? I listed race, religion, country of origin, and patriotism. So then:

Race: I consider it completely meaningless. The fact that my skin is white and a friend's skin is black doesn't make a difference to how I treat them, and never should. They are not less intelligent than me due to their race, more athletic due to their race, or anything else.
It is true that Whites are know more intelligent than blacks, but to say that race doesn't matter is crazy. People who say they don't see colour when they look at someone is bullshitting.

Religion: I'm a Christian. I don't care what faith anyone else follows, and don't try and push my faith on them. I don't limit my friends to just other Christians, hurl abuse at Jews, or suspect Muslims of being suicide bombers.
And again religion matters. It has mattered enough to go to war over for thousands of years. I don't hurl abuse at Jews. But I would be more suspicious of a Muslim being a suicide bomber.

Country of Origin: I'm a British and American citizen, and was born in Pakistan. That I consider countries meaningless should be fairly obvious from that. I don't think myself better than someone else because of my passport or my birth certificate.
I do. And it is important, having a British passport is better than having a Zimbabwean passport for instance.

Patriotism: I consider it a backwards ideal, probably because of my view on countries. To quote Ursula K. LeGuin: "No, I don't mean love, when I say patriotism. I mean fear. The fear of the other. And its expressions are political, not poetical: hate, rivalry, aggression".
What ever happened to : "a witty saying proves nothing"?

"those damn Pakis diluting our British culture"
:eek:


Pfft. Murder is nearly universally seen as a moral evil, something to be condemned. So should this exploitation of difference, these inherently meaningless and artificial distinctions. After all, they lead to hatred, abuse, murder, rape, and genocide, depending on how far they are taken. Anything which causes that should be abandoned by any society which attempts to claim civilisation.
Murder is a very natural thing, it happens all over the animal kingdom.


He wants me kicked out of the country, because I was born in Pakistan. In short, it is.
Yeah because you weren't born here and you take taxpayers money for your schooling.

RoI: Just out of interest, do you think that all immigrants should be kicked out?
Yes.


What are you using for a browser?
google chrome, but I have just been informed that you can change the language to real English, so if any words are Americanized it's my bad.

Yeah because you weren't born here and you take taxpayers money for your schooling.


As do you. May I ask what you have given back so far in taxes?

Must be spring. All the 15 year old fascists are coming out.

As do you. May I ask what you have given back so far in taxes?
I was born here and so were my ancestors- it is my right to have an education.
Must be spring. All the 15 year old fascists are coming out.

Funny I thought the it must be sprig because all the liberals and commies were out. But you guys are always around aren't you?

I was born here and so were my ancestors- it is my right to have an education.
As it is a right for those immigrants now here.

Ancestry and rights have no connection.

I was born here and so were my ancestors- it is my right to have an education.


You have a right to an education as a citizen not as a native born.

Yep.


Stereotipicly British? What's that suposed to mean.
Like the stereotypical American is fat and stupid?


You're the one arguing about Britishness. Go on. Tell us the meaning of Britishness.

Forward!? Are you serious?

Well if you want to live in a bland, boring hellhole go right ahead. Just say goodbye to a lot the food, films, clothing items etc that these cultures bring as well.

No, not segregation- deportation. Before you get all offended- not due to skin colour, due to nationality.

Nationality is bogus. I'm not against all deportation but this should be based on a case by case system, whether the immigrant was here illegally, whether they are a threat to the society, whether or not they face persecution should they be deported etc.

Were they born here? Where their parents born here.

My mother was born here. My father and grandparents born in India.

How are they holding it back? In what we is being patriotic holding the country back?

There is nothing wrong being totally patriotic. In fact I know quite a few immigrants who are patriots of this nation and yet they love the mix of different cultures.

Einstein also said that " Nationalism is a cancer of humanity". The guy wasn't as bright as everyone thinks.

I'm sorry but I'm going to put my faith more in Einstein and his work than you.

And none of these evils have been or will be started by me. So what's your point. If you are implying that I want any of these thing you are deeply mistaken. I just want Britain to remain British.

And what is Britishness? Come on. Define it.

This almost reminds me of a slogan the BNP used. "We're not racist. We're British." I think that documentary on them showed everyone how the BNP is made up of morons.

Yeah because you weren't born here and you take taxpayers money for your schooling.

And how much have you given back to the society? I bet my grandparents, who you so want to get rid of have contributed more than you have.

As it is a right for those immigrants now here.

Ancestry and rights have no connection.
They should and would if we did not live in such a backwards society

They should and would if we did not live in such a backwards society

Backwards?

Explain what makes our society so backwards.

@Isengard: What if you immigrated to...say Iran. Would you no longer deserve an education?

They should and would if we did not live in such a backwards society
Well, I'd much rather live in a society where rights are based upon citizenship, not where your grandfather was born.

I hardly see how this is 'backwards'.

I still don't see why I am criticised and not my culture.
P.S In many ways it's better to be a dumb ass.

Your PS gives you the first reason. The quote which follows gives you the second.


Not my own superiority, my cultures superiority.

By identifying your superiority with that of your culture, you have opened yourself up for criticism along with your culture. You have also opened yourself up to criticism generally, for making such a stupid move.


Einstein also said that " Nationalism is a cancer of humanity". The guy wasn't as bright as everyone thinks.

And he was right, if the rest of your posts are any good as an indication of what nationalists think.


I never said less work was done their, perhaps lesser works.

As it happens, you did. But despite that, you are also wrong now. Works such as the Rubiyat in literature, many breathtaking examples of Islamic holy art, and the various mathematical treatises published in the Middle East are all easily on par with anything Europe has produced. For a more contemporary example in my field, the famous "Primes is in P" paper, proving an incredibly important mathematical result, was published by three Indian mathematicians.


Back then that was all you needed.

Fortunately, the times have changed.


And none of these evils have been or will be started by me. So what's your point. If you are implying that I want any of these thing you are deeply mistaken. I just want Britain to remain British.

Your last sentence contradicts your first. Evils of this type inevitably result from people just like you calling for things like "Britain for the British".

To be clear about this part of my argument. That humans have differences is an undeniable fact. What I have claimed is that dividing people into "us" and "them" based on these differences is an artificial imposition, granting a significance to something inherently meaningless, and leads inevitably to many moral wrongs.

To glance through my friendship group for a moment: I am white, while Ahir is Indian. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm heterosexual, Katie is homosexual. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm Christian, Ed is an atheist. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm male, Alice is female. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm anti-nationalist, Johnny is fiercely patriotic. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm very left wing, Sophie is a Thatcherite. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. And so on. There are differences between us, but we are still friends.

And yet, throughout history, every single one of these differences has been used by some humans to justify oppressing other humans. Race, Sex, Religion, Politics, Orientation. They've all been used to justify horrible acts, unspeakable acts, murder and bigotry and hatred. They shouldn't matter. We're all humans. And they only matter, they are only used to justify oppression, because of people like you who make them matter, make them relevant and important. Our differences are meaningless, until we make them relevant and important, we use them to divide people. And if we realised that, we realised the common bonds of all humanity and discarded these stupid ideas that race, sex, or religion matter, we would move forward greatly as a species.


It is true that Whites are know more intelligent than blacks, but to say that race doesn't matter is crazy. People who say they don't see colour when they look at someone is bullshitting.

You could ask permission before you push your own character flaws onto me.


And again religion matters. It has mattered enough to go to war over for thousands of years. I don't hurl abuse at Jews. But I would be more suspicious of a Muslim being a suicide bomber.

You fundamentally miss the point of this part of my argument. I have claimed that making differences into humanity into distinctions, and then making these distinctions into something important, leads to evils such as wars, religiously motivated violence, the Ku Klux Klan, and so on.


I do. And it is important, having a British passport is better than having a Zimbabwean passport for instance.

I do, however, consider myself better than people who put themselves above others for meaningless reasons.


What ever happened to : "a witty saying proves nothing"?

In case you didn't catch it, that was a joke. Furthermore, LeGuin's comment is incredibly accurate. That is what patriotism and nationalism lead to - your own posts here have demonstrated as much.


Murder is a very natural thing, it happens all over the animal kingdom.


I never argued it was not a natural thing. Merely that it was not moral. The two are different. I then made a comparison with this exploitation of difference, arguing that it was also not moral. You have yet to show that it is.


Yeah because you weren't born here and you take taxpayers money for your schooling.

Yes.

I was born as a British citizen, to a British father. Should I still be deported? It is, incidentally, my right as a human being to have an education, and as a British citizen to have one in this country. Why do you seek to deprive me of my rights?


No, not segregation- deportation. Before you get all offended- not due to skin colour, due to nationality.

You said he should be a second class citizen - that's segregation. Out of interest, you claim all immigrants. What about, for example, people who have moved over from the USA?

For a more contemporary example in my field, the famous "Primes is in P" paper, proving an incredibly important mathematical result, was published by three Indian mathematicians.
Not to forget the first use of the concept of zero.

Not to forget the first use of the concept of zero.

Ramanujan as well.

we are people and that's it. we cannot choose color, country, language, background, religion, parents and so on when we born in this place called planet earth.

as a matter of luck or destiny we are as we are now. no one has chosen.

we are going through an technological adolescence and we will be lucky if we don't kill ourselves. we must work together for a better future.

as Charles Dickens said: indigence and ignorance are the opium for human kingdom. these issues bring war, violence, hate, instability and chaos.

come on guys! do you think we are the only ones here in the universe? so please common sense. if we ignore and reject our neighbor's problems sooner or later we will be affected.

please don't think: oh this guy is a "peace and love" hippie. NO. it is about serious general policies under a strict law to get rid of scum which comes in all sort of shapes, colors and odors.

thanks,

memonio

we are people and that's it. we cannot choose color, country, language, background, religion, parents and so on when we born in this place called planet earth.

as a matter of luck or destiny we are as we are now. no one has chosen.
No, no, no, it's simple science. Luck has nothing to do with it.

we are going through an technological adolescence and we will be lucky if we don't kill ourselves. we must work together for a better future.
How should we work together? On what? What is a "better" future?

as Charles Dickens said: indigence and ignorance are the opium for human kingdom. these issues bring war, violence, hate, instability and chaos.
What does that have to do with anything?

come on guys! do you think we are the only ones here in the universe? so please common sense. if we ignore and reject our neighbor's problems sooner or later we will be affected.
What planet are you from, might I ask?
please don't think: oh this guy is a "peace and love" hippie. NO. it is about serious general policies under a strict law to get rid of scum which comes in all sort of shapes, colors and odors.
What is your definition of scum?

Jeez, you lot moan at me for my grammar?


Well if you want to live in a bland, boring hellhole go right ahead. Just say goodbye to a lot the food, films, clothing items etc that these cultures bring as well.
Why would deporting immigrants mean a lack of food, films and clothing?


Nationality is bogus. I'm not against all deportation but this should be based on a case by case system, whether the immigrant was here illegally, whether they are a threat to the society, whether or not they face persecution should they be deported etc.
Certainly all those who are a threat should be deported immediately whether they will be killed, tortured or not.


There is nothing wrong being totally patriotic. In fact I know quite a few immigrants who are patriots of this nation and yet they love the mix of different cultures.
How and why would an immigrant be patriotic?


I'm sorry but I'm going to put my faith more in Einstein and his work than you.
Be a fool, allot of his theories have been disproved in part or in whole.


This almost reminds me of a slogan the BNP used. "We're not racist. We're British." I think that documentary on them showed everyone how the BNP is made up of morons.
The BNP are idiots. They are some of the dumbest people in the country.


And how much have you given back to the society? I bet my grandparents, who you so want to get rid of have contributed more than you have.
And taken allot more I'll warrant.
@Isengard: What if you immigrated to...say Iran. Would you no longer deserve an education?
No I would not. But why on earth would I move there?
Your PS gives you the first reason. The quote which follows gives you the second.
I was implying that people often like people who are unintelligent more than those more intelligent and stuck up their own arse.


By identifying your superiority with that of your culture, you have opened yourself up for criticism along with your culture. You have also opened yourself up to criticism generally, for making such a stupid move.
I've never said I was superior to anyone on this forum.



As it happens, you did. But despite that, you are also wrong now. Works such as the Rubiyat in literature, many breathtaking examples of Islamic holy art, and the various mathematical treatises published in the Middle East are all easily on par with anything Europe has produced. For a more contemporary example in my field, the famous "Primes is in P" paper, proving an incredibly important mathematical result, was published by three Indian mathematicians.
What about Greek mathematics or Renaissance art or Victorian literature. All of these surpass any thing that you lot have said.


Fortunately, the times have changed.
They haven't really that much. It's just not as obvious as it used to be. Look at the US trying to interfere with the rest of the world. Or on the other end of the scale, what about Osama Bin Laden interfering with the rest of the terrorist world.


Your last sentence contradicts your first. Evils of this type inevitably result from people just like you calling for things like "Britain for the British".
You honestly think that I want people like you killed?


To glance through my friendship group for a moment: I am white, while Ahir is Indian. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm heterosexual, Katie is homosexual. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm Christian, Ed is an atheist. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm male, Alice is female. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm anti-nationalist, Johnny is fiercely patriotic. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. I'm very left wing, Sophie is a Thatcherite. Doesn't make a difference - we're both human. And so on. There are differences between us, but we are still friends.
Okay, just listing a random bunch of names at me and claiming you're friends with all these different minded people does nothing for you're argument and makes you look like a liar. It is easy to lie about such things over the internet.




You could ask permission before you push your own character flaws onto me.
So, if you see a black man, you don't notice he's black at all? You literally can't see skin colour?


I do, however, consider myself better than people who put themselves above others for meaningless reasons.
It is not meaningless, and you are no better than me. Just as in this fucked up society I am no better than you.


In case you didn't catch it, that was a joke. Furthermore, LeGuin's comment is incredibly accurate. That is what patriotism and nationalism lead to - your own posts here have demonstrated as much.
No they don't.


I never argued it was not a natural thing. Merely that it was not moral. The two are different. I then made a comparison with this exploitation of difference, arguing that it was also not moral. You have yet to show that it is.
I have never claimed it is moral. But it is perfectly natural.



I was born as a British citizen, to a British father. Should I still be deported? It is, incidentally, my right as a human being to have an education, and as a British citizen to have one in this country. Why do you seek to deprive me of my rights?
You were born a British citizen? You just said you were born in Pakistan.


You said he should be a second class citizen - that's segregation. Out of interest, you claim all immigrants. What about, for example, people who have moved over from the USA?
Ha, you think I only dislike immigrants with different skin colours? No, all should be deported.

Not to forget the first use of the concept of zero.

I thought the mayans were the first ones to have the concept of zero?

Why would deporting immigrants mean a lack of food, films and clothing?

Well deporting immigrants will mean the lack of exotic foods from all over the world, as restaurants close, foreign films will go, new designer clothers by immigrants who otherwise would come to the UK would go.


Certainly all those who are a threat should be deported immediately whether they will be killed, tortured or not.

I disagree. If they are a threat, try them under the law and if found guilty, jail them.

How and why would an immigrant be patriotic?

Wow. First they came to a country they heard great things about. They arrived in said country and discover all the things they did not have in their home nation. They enjoy the country, love it and become citizens and patriots. Not all of them, but the majority.

Be a fool, allot of his theories have been disproved in part or in whole.

Source please. Claiming a lot of Einstein's theories have disproved is not good enough.


The BNP are idiots. They are some of the dumbest people in the country.

I'm glad we agree on this at least.


And taken allot more I'll warrant.

Ha. My grandparents never claimed benefits at all. My parents both work, though I must admit my father does get some benefit for his diabetes. Other than that you're really grabbing at straws.


I've never said I was superior to anyone on this forum.

Well it certainly is implied in your arguments.



What about Greek mathematics or Renaissance art or Victorian literature. All of these surpass any thing that you lot have said.

Okay. How about this?

Civilisation. You know founded in the Middle East.
Education. The world's first university was founded in Timbuktu.
Early scientific advancement. Middle East and China.






Ha, you think I only dislike immigrants with different skin colours? No, all should be deported.

Well then say hello to a bigger economic mess than we're in now. You do know that immigrants make up a significant part of the workforce?

Immigrants boost economy (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_10_27/uk/immigrants_boost_economy.htm)

Migrants bring benefits to the nation. (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_08_29/eu/east_europe_migrant_benefits.htm)

You're whole argument is really starting to look flawed RoI.

No, no, no, it's simple science. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Tell me: Did you get to choose where you were born, or the combination of traits you have? My guess is no. None of us get to choose that. It's luck of the draw.

Certainly all those who are a threat should be deported immediately whether they will be killed, tortured or not.

So you condone torture? Check your family tree; look for two men by the names of George Walker Bush and Richard Bruce Cheney.


How and why would an immigrant be patriotic?

Because they like their adopted homeland?

Be a fool, allot of his theories have been disproved in part or in whole.

It's called a stepping stone. London wasn't built in a day, and neither was human understanding of the world.

I've never said I was superior to anyone on this forum.

For the situation at hand, yes, you have. By stating that people of European descent are superior to all others, and by declaring you are of strictly European descent, you have said indirectly that you are indeed superior to, for example, me (I'm of partial Amerindian, North African, Middle Eastern, South Asian, Central Asian, and East Asian descent in addition to my European ancestry).

What about Greek mathematics or Renaissance art or Victorian literature. All of these surpass any thing that you lot have said.

Greek mathematics and Victorian literature would not exist if the Sumerians - non-European people - had not invented writing first.

You honestly think that I want people like you killed?

At this point, it's honestly hard to tell.

So, if you see a black man, you don't notice he's black at all? You literally can't see skin colour?

I see a human being. The only race that matters to me is human. So his skin is a different shade. It doesn't matter to me and it should matter to no one.

It is not meaningless, and you are no better than me. Just as in this fucked up society I am no better than you.

That's not what you said earlier.

No they don't.

Remember Gavrillo Princip? His nationalistic views led to him starting World War I.

Ha, you think I only dislike immigrants with different skin colours? No, all should be deported.

If you get rid of all immigrants, you also get rid of all their ideas. If one of them has an idea that could realistically lead to a cure for cancer, and you toss him out, how would you justify that to a native-born British citizen who has cancer?

Ok so, I didn't read the article, but it sounds like the usual immigrants having problem adapting type dealy. So, I can't comment on over in the UK, but it seems like it would be similar to here... the parents wouldn't integrate admittedly, however, what you need to look at is the kids. The kids could have problems if they were older, but if a 5-year old came, he'd integrate fine. If you look down the line, I'm sure that 2-3 generations down, they'd be fully integrated, barring discrimination policies or other unforeseeable circumstances, or if there's a huge difference in beliefs between the immigrants and the host nation.

Edit: read the snippet. I don't think forcing customers to speak english is wrong in of itself necessarily. English is the only language I can speak, so it just wouldn't work to have them speaking in another language. However, the way he made it sound you'd be less patriotic for not speaking english, but it's stupid to expect first-generation immigrants to speak fluent english.

Tell me: Did you get to choose where you were born, or the combination of traits you have? My guess is no. None of us get to choose that. It's luck of the draw.
No, but it is not luck- it's in our DNA.


So you condone torture? Check your family tree; look for two men by the names of George Walker Bush and Richard Bruce Cheney.
Ha your hilarious.



For the situation at hand, yes, you have. By stating that people of European descent are superior to all others, and by declaring you are of strictly European descent, you have said indirectly that you are indeed superior to, for example, me (I'm of partial Amerindian, North African, Middle Eastern, South Asian, Central Asian, and East Asian descent in addition to my European ancestry).
Jesus Christ your like a fucking pick and mix bag!. How the hell did you you manage that? It's nigh on impossible.


Greek mathematics and Victorian literature would not exist if the Sumerians - non-European people - had not invented writing first.
And there would be no books if the printing press hadn't been invented in Europe.


At this point, it's honestly hard to tell.
At what point have I said I want you dead?


I see a human being. The only race that matters to me is human. So his skin is a different shade. It doesn't matter to me and it should matter to no one.
I know race doesn't matter, but it's still there, everyone still sees it.


That's not what you said earlier.
I mean in the eyes of the law.

Remember Gavrillo Princip? His nationalistic views led to him starting World War I.
He just wanted independence, and the war would have happened anyway.

Well deporting immigrants will mean the lack of exotic foods from all over the world, as restaurants close, foreign films will go, new designer clothers by immigrants who otherwise would come to the UK would go.
Nah all of those things would still be here.



I disagree. If they are a threat, try them under the law and if found guilty, jail them.
Why waste taxpayers money?




Ha. My grandparents never claimed benefits at all. My parents both work, though I must admit my father does get some benefit for his diabetes. Other than that you're really grabbing at straws.
Oh, and what about your schooling and possibly your parents?


Okay. How about this?

Civilisation. You know founded in the Middle East.
Education. The world's first university was founded in Timbuktu.
Early scientific advancement. Middle East and China.
But we expanded on this and made it so much better.





Well then say hello to a bigger economic mess than we're in now. You do know that immigrants make up a significant part of the workforce?

Immigrants boost economy (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_10_27/uk/immigrants_boost_economy.htm)

Migrants bring benefits to the nation. (http://www.workpermit.com/news/2006_08_29/eu/east_europe_migrant_benefits.htm)

You're whole argument is really starting to look flawed RoI.
What about the immigrants taking housing and jobs? Is that good for the economy? Or indeed homeless or unemployed British people?

No, but it is not luck- it's in our DNA.

No it's luck. My grandparents may not have moved to England at all and so I would have been born in India. I'm pretty sure if you trace your family history back you could pick out where someone may not have had made the decision to leave their nation.

Jesus Christ your like a fucking pick and mix bag!. How the hell did you you manage that? It's nigh on impossible.

Why? Contrary to what you think may be true, humans have moved around the globe for millenia, mixing with the indigenous culture and creating offspring.


And there would be no books if the printing press hadn't been invented in Europe.

Who's to say someone else could not have invented the printing press?




What about the immigrants taking housing and jobs? Is that good for the economy? Or indeed homeless or unemployed British people?

What about other British citizens doing the same? It's a two way street. There are Brits commiting fraud. The old "they're taking our jobs!" argument fails.

No, but it is not luck- it's in our DNA.

You misunderstand - Did you personally get to choose the DNA you wound up with?


Ha your hilarious.

I try. :p

Jesus Christ your like a fucking pick and mix bag!. How the hell did you you manage that? It's nigh on impossible.

Some ancestor of my mother's was Mohawk, and my father is part Turk, Roman-era Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian, Indian (as in India), Chinese, and Korean.

And there would be no books if the printing press hadn't been invented in Europe.

The printing press would mean nothing without the characters used in printing, which wouldn't exist had cuneiform not been invented in Sumeria.

He just wanted independence, and the war would have happened anyway.

You miss the point: Even without Princip, it would have happened anyway, because of nationalism. Nationalism always leads to war. The Egyptians, the Romans, the First French Empire, the Second French Empire, the Austro-Prussian war, the wars of Italian unification, WWI, WWII... should I name more?

Power and influence.

Ah - yes, you've done a great job demonstrating this influence so far! I am honestly amazed at how many people are persuaded by anything you've got.

But I guess we can say you're an exception in the 'generally' superior white race, right?

Wow, you guys call them periods? That's fucked up. I don't think I missed out any Full Stops.


A period is a punctuation mark which indicates a full stop.

Demonstrating that you don't know this very simple concept really just proves my point so obviously that it's obvious you're a troll.

I still don't see why I am criticised and not my culture.
P.S In many ways it's better to be a dumb ass.

Do you think pretending to be dumber than you really are makes you clever?

What? That seems entirely irrelevant and random.


Stereotipicly British? What's that suposed to mean.

It means you're trying to pass yourself off as an arrogant British snob, when you're really just arrogant. You need a certain level of education to do the snob thing, and you apparently don't have it. You claim your 'culture' is superior but display inferiority. It's all so very easy, you're basically handing it out.

What? Again I did not miss a "period".

Why lie when it's there for everyone to see? This points again to "troll," as does your "ignorance" of what a "period" is.

Not my own superiority, my cultures superiority.

A culture you're supposedly a part of, but which you don't represent. Ho-hum. Well, the only way you can keep this entertaining is if you display signs of serious mental breakdown, so you better think hard for your reply.

What about Greek mathematics or Renaissance art or Victorian literature. All of these surpass any thing that you lot have said.

Um, that's very debatable. To take just the mathematics (that being my field of speciality), the Greeks basically laid the fundamentals for Geometry, and not much more. Certainly, they did some excellent work, but it was limited. The Arabs were the ones who brought number theory into it's own - where do you think we get the words "algebra" or "algorithm" from? The Indians contributed the idea of zero.

Hell, go write a couple numbers down. Guess what you just used to represent them? Arabic numerals. They invented the place system that made commerce and banking practicable.


They haven't really that much. It's just not as obvious as it used to be. Look at the US trying to interfere with the rest of the world. Or on the other end of the scale, what about Osama Bin Laden interfering with the rest of the terrorist world.

Bit by bit. You'll note I haven't been defending the US interference - I don't claim modern day imperialism is any better than old-time imperialism.


You honestly think that I want people like you killed?

No, but attitudes like yours are what leads to the sort of society where people do want to kill other people over such meaningless differences.


Okay, just listing a random bunch of names at me and claiming you're friends with all these different minded people does nothing for you're argument and makes you look like a liar. It is easy to lie about such things over the internet.

Well, if you find it so hard to imagine that I might be friends with people who are different from me, I don't care if you think I'm a liar, I pity you for your closed-mindedness.

I also note with interest that you completely discarded my second paragraph. Couldn't think of a pithy comeback for it?


So, if you see a black man, you don't notice he's black at all? You literally can't see skin colour?

Well, I am actually colourblind. But, as ME said, I see a human, nothing more.


It is not meaningless, and you are no better than me. Just as in this fucked up society I am no better than you.

Wait a minute. You actually think that you should be better than me?


I have never claimed it is moral. But it is perfectly natural.

I don't give a damn if it's natural. Clothing isn't natural. I only care about whether it's moral.


You were born a British citizen? You just said you were born in Pakistan.

I'm sorry, the two are contradictory? To be clear then: I was born in Pakistan, to a British father and an American mother. Since birth, I have had two citizenships - British and American.


Ha, you think I only dislike immigrants with different skin colours? No, all should be deported.

Well, at least you're consistently silly.


And there would be no books if the printing press hadn't been invented in Europe.

Firstly, printing was invented in China several hundred years before anyone in Europe devised it. Secondly, books far predate printing. But don't let the facts destroy your `argument'.


I know race doesn't matter, but it's still there, everyone still sees it.

Again, I don't. Besides, this line denies

No, but it is not luck- it's in our DNA.

this line, as nationality is not a result of your DNA, all that can be left is race/ethnicity.

Of course, this line is also factually wrong - your DNA is quite literally a product of random mixing of the DNA of your parents, plus a healthy dose of mutation. It is luck.


He just wanted independence, and the war would have happened anyway.

And the only reason Europe was in a state where war was inevitable was because of nationalism.


What about the immigrants taking housing and jobs? Is that good for the economy? Or indeed homeless or unemployed British people?

They don't, basically. There are nearly always more job vacancies than people willing to work at them. If you look at it merely from an economic perspective, immigration is always a net plus for the economy. When you also take into account the many benefits it brings to society, opposition to immigration is revealed for the stupidity that it is.

I guess chemistry, logic, astronomy and scientific method are all heretical then.

We showed that punk Galileo business... well, we did.

I support this motherfucker


Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches crowding up MY England, its ENGLAND for a reason, not '' HEY ALL YOU MIDDLE EASTERN TYPES COME OVERFILL OUR COUNTRY FUCK YEAH ''.

I choose not to slog through 40 pages of some UK xenophobe failing to justify his flawed arguments, but I would like to point out that printed text and bound books predate the printing press by about 1000 years. In addition, Gutenburg did not invent books or even printing. He invented movable type which sped up the process of printing by making it easier to make the printing plates to order. Furthermore, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it took western (by which I suppose some people mean "white") culture to invent movable type. All it took for that invention to come out of Germany was timing. History is full of instances of multiple people in different places working on similar ideas at similar times -- one wins the race to get the invention up and running, history is written, and the inventors who didn't get that prize move on to something else. The claim that there would be no books if not for Gutenberg is laughably wrong because (a) there were books before Gutenberg and (b) Gutenberg was not the only guy in the world who knew how to make them and was motivated to make them faster and more cheaply.

Finally, how does Gutenberg -- who was just one person -- become a stand-in for all of "white" western culture? Does every fair-skinned moron get to bask in the glow of his one bright idea? Heh -- I don't think so. Just being the same color or from the same place as Gutenberg does not make someone else as smart as him. Every argument I have ever heard about cultural superiority boils down to someone who has never done a damned thing worth noting trying to claim some kind of erstaz credit for other people's accomplishments. It's bull.

I support this motherfucker
Eugh.
Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches crowding up MY England, its ENGLAND for a reason, not '' HEY ALL YOU MIDDLE EASTERN TYPES COME OVERFILL OUR COUNTRY FUCK YEAH ''.
It's as much MY England as YOUR England, and I personally don't mind people not being able to speak English when they arrive, so long as they try to get it sorted pretty quickly.

I support this motherfucker


Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches crowding up MY England, its ENGLAND for a reason, not '' HEY ALL YOU MIDDLE EASTERN TYPES COME OVERFILL OUR COUNTRY FUCK YEAH ''.
I enjoy that you bitch about immigrants not being able to speak English, when your own written grammar sucks so bad. :D Are you quoting a professional comedian, or did you come up with this joke yourself?

Eugh.

It's as much MY England as YOUR England, and I personally don't mind people not being able to speak English when they arrive, so long as they try to get it sorted pretty quickly.

On the plus side, at least he's open about his racism.

Hey Luldom, I was born in Pakistan, and have moved over to the UK. Got anything to say about that?

No, so long as you learn the language and actually stick to it

Theres a reason england speaks english, its our national language
And I'm not going to give it up for some punk from some country I haven't even heard about because he's in a minority.

No, so long as you learn the language and actually stick to it

Theres a reason england speaks english, its our national language
And I'm not going to give it up for some punk from some country I haven't even heard about because he's in a minority.
Yeah I don't think we're going to give up England as a nation because there are a minority group who don't speak the language -_-

No, so long as you learn the language and actually stick to it.

There's a reason England speaks English. It's our national language, and I'm not going to give it up for some punk from some country I haven't even heard about because he's in a minority.This is fun! :D Keep up complaining about people being unable to speak your language, please.

This is fun! :D Keep up complaining about people being unable to speak your language, please.
To be fair, being able to speak clear English and write it with perfect grammar, orthography etc. are two different things.

I support this motherfucker

Why it's another superior-cultured individual who's never heard of the period! What a coincidence and how original.

But is he ranting about immigrants' English skills, thus truly inviting mockery by highlighting his hypocrisy?

Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches

Yes, yes he is.

And can anyone tell me why supposedly patriotic chav culture warrior types always try to talk like black American gangstas?

Yeah I don't think we're going to give up England as a nation because there are a minority group who don't speak the language -_-
What? You mean the sound of other languages around you doesn't cause you to forget how to speak your own (language which is basically a Frankenstein creature cobbled together out of other languages anyway)?

Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar. There is a thing called laziness.

If you attempt to speak the language, then we're fine; if you dont then fuck off out of my country if you dont want to be civilized. If for some reason you can't learn the language, then okay, fine; stay. Just dont fuck around and act like you're the king of the world.

I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain, not to mention people who come over from around the world to claim our benefits, not bothering to learn our language and decide they own the entire goddamn country.

Shitstorm of - HEY UR GRAMMA SUCKS LOL HIPROCYTZ begin now please.

I support this motherfucker

I would like to point out that, usually - usually - calling someone a motherfucker is less than an ideal way to show support.

To be fair, being able to speak clear English and write it with perfect grammar, orthography etc. are two different things.
I have this rule that people who are going to criticize other people's command of a language should make at least an effort to use that same language correctly themselves, even if they only do it for the purpose of making the said criticism. Otherwise, they open themselves up to ridicule.

Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar. There is a thing called laziness.

If you attempt to speak the language, then we're fine; if you dont then fuck off out of my country if you dont want to be civilized. If for some reason you can't learn the language, then okay, fine; stay. Just dont fuck around and act like you're the kind of the world.

I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain, not to mention people who come over from around the world to claim our benefits, not bothering to learn our language and decide they own the entire goddamn country.

If you ever come to Brazil (for the beaches, for the tourism, whatever), I will expect your Portuguese to be flawless.

white people are starting to become a minority in briatain
White people make up 95% of the population of Britain. It might be down to, say, 70% in Leicester, but come to York and you'll see that some places are basically 100% white still. We're not going to become a minority any time soon.

I have this rule that people who are going to criticize other people's command of a language should make at least an effort to use that same language correctly themselves, even if they only do it for the purpose of making the said criticism. Otherwise, they open themselves up to ridicule.

Wow, have you even taking into account that for the most part I spelt it correctly? I am 13, man. I cant be expected to win a medal for my writing skills.


'Twould be awesome, though.

White people make up 95% of the population of Britain. It might be down to, say, 70% in Leicester, but come to York and you'll see that some places are basically 100% white still. We're not going to become a minority any time soon.

But we are still on our way.

Also, to the person claiming that my portugese better be flawless, did I say ANYTHING about tourists? No; this was about long term residents.

Ah, I think we've found the problem.

You somehow believe that which side of the line in the sand you were born on should be important in your life. Allow me to let you in on a little secret kiddo - it isn't. National borders, nationhood, patriotism? All of them have a simple purpose - keeping you, a human being and nothing more (or less) divided from them, also human beings and nothing more (and definitely nothing less).

There is no `black' or `white'; no `patriotic' or `traitorous'; no `Christian' or `Muslim' or `atheist'; no `American', `British', `Tibetan', `Pakistani', or `Chilean'. We are all human, nothing more.

Borders only have power and meaning because people let them. They have no intrinsic value. Why, in the name of all that is good, should parts of the world `belong' to arbitrary groups of people, based on nothing more than accidents of birth and long ago battles? Letting go of the silly idea of nations and borders, recognising them for the false divisions that they are, would bring incalculable progress to humanity.

Nothing has any power or meaning unless we let it. I wouldn't just brush aside identity issues so lightly, as their implications and consequences in the social and behavioral sciences are too great.

To be fair, being able to speak clear English and write it with perfect grammar, orthography etc. are two different things.

Communication is communication, whether verbal or written.

Maybe if people placed a bit more value on written language, there wouldn't be so many people entering into contracts they have no idea what the fuck are about. Or getting certain kinds of loans. Or mistakenly voting for the wrong people. At the very least, everyone should learn how to communicate if for no other reason than to not sound like an ignorant fool.

Immigrants new to the language have an excuse. Native-born do not.

/rant

But we are still on our way.
Not at all. Yeah fine, Pakistanis etc. may have more kids per head, but it's going to be hundreds of years at current rates before white people become a minority.

Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar. There is a thing called laziness.
Which you demonstrate very well. However, it is not an admirable trait.

If you attempt to speak the language, then we're fine; if you dont then fuck off out of my country if you dont want to be civilized. If for some reason you can't learn the language, then okay, fine; stay. Just dont fuck around and act like you're the kind of the world.

I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain, not to mention people who come over from around the world to claim our benefits, not bothering to learn our language and decide they own the entire goddamn country.
Well, you can be pissed at anything you like. I don't really care. Where I come from, that shit is traditional, part of the local cultural heritage (NYC). In my world, recounting the ethnic changes of various neighborhoods, districts, towns, etc., adds to the richness of a place's history.

My only issue with xenophobes is that they seem to spend more time bitching about what other people do than doing anything themselves. Maybe you should try advancing your own culture by adding to it and carrying it forward into the future in a relevant way, if you don't want it to be supplanted, rather than just pointlessly shoveling against the tides of change.

I do add to the society by being an intelligent young teenager, because I have a few issues with england slowly becoming less english should be pretty easy to understand. Thank fuck I'm moving soon.

Communication is communication, whether verbal or written.

Maybe if people placed a bit more value on written language, there wouldn't be so many people entering into contracts they have no idea what the fuck are about. Or getting certain kinds of loans. Or mistakenly voting for the wrong people. At the very least, everyone should learn how to communicate if for no other reason than to not sound like an ignorant fool.

Immigrants new to the language have an excuse. Native-born do not.

/rant

That's more people are too lazy to read a contract.
That and Legalese is like a professional dialect of English.

I do add to the society by being an intelligent young teenager, because I have a few issues with england slowly becoming less english should be pretty easy to understand. Thank fuck I'm moving soon.
Intelligent teenagers back their bullshit statements up with facts.

Wow, have you even taking into account that for the most part I spelt it correctly? I am 13, man. I cant be expected to win a medal for my writing skills.


'Twould be awesome, though.
No excuse. When I was 13, if I had written something that badly, I would have been sentenced to extra homework to make sure I understood my mistakes and would never repeat them. Also, you can be damned sure my teachers would have made hay with the irony of my subject as well.

Hey man, when it comes down to it, I'll do it.

Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches

Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar.

It's more like you making a fool out of yourself and me laughing. I'm not making you blurt this shit out.

There is a thing called laziness.

Oh! Oh! Too lazy... finger can reach all keys... except... period key....

It's called ENGLAND for a reason you know, not ENGL -AH-FUCK-IT-IM-TOO-INEXPLICABLY-LAZY-TO-FINISH.


I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain

There are people who have actual problems, you know, not "boo hoo people don't look vaguely like me as much anymore."


Shitstorm of - HEY UR GRAMMA SUCKS LOL HIPROCYTZ begin now please.

Is that what you want? It certainly seems so. I guess it's the new thing - spatter angry, inept arguments and then whine when they get shot the fuck down.

Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar. There is a thing called laziness.

If you attempt to speak the language, then we're fine; if you dont then fuck off out of my country if you dont want to be civilized. If for some reason you can't learn the language, then okay, fine; stay. Just dont fuck around and act like you're the king of the world.

I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain, not to mention people who come over from around the world to claim our benefits, not bothering to learn our language and decide they own the entire goddamn country.

Shitstorm of - HEY UR GRAMMA SUCKS LOL HIPROCYTZ begin now please.

I live 10 miles from Aylesbury. It sure as hell isn't an Indian/Muslim town. Never mind the stupidity of using those two in conjunction - you would have wanted either Indian/Pakistani or Hindu/Muslim.

Furthermore, I require actual evidence of people doing this. Have you ever actually moved between countries? It's a hell of a lot of upheaval to go through and to put a family through. Nobody does that just to claim benefits.

Nothing has any power or meaning unless we let it. I wouldn't just brush aside identity issues so lightly, as their implications and consequences in the social and behavioral sciences are too great.

Maybe. I think, however, that my final point stands: while they are currently issues, much of what they produce is negative, and is only holding humanity back. If we could discard it, we would move ahead immeasurably. Unfortunately, that's just a pipe dream.

I do add to the society by being an intelligent young teenager, because I have a few issues with england slowly becoming less english should be pretty easy to understand. Thank fuck I'm moving soon.
I see. You add to your culture by complaining about it like a 13-year-old pundit. Do you really think you are saying anything that has not been heard before, many times -- per day? Or do you think the way to save British culture is to lard it up with more parrots repeating the same old xenophobic talking points?

Also, I enjoy your notion that you can add to your national culture by leaving it. If nothing else, you are a treasure trove of irony. :D

I live 10 miles from Aylesbury. It sure as hell isn't an Indian/Muslim town. Never mind the stupidity of using those two in conjunction - you would have wanted either Indian/Pakistani or Hindu/Muslim.

Furthermore, I require actual evidence of people doing this. Have you ever actually moved between countries? It's a hell of a lot of upheaval to go through and to put a family through. Nobody does that just to claim benefits.



Maybe. I think, however, that my final point stands: while they are currently issues, much of what they produce is negative, and is only holding humanity back. If we could discard it, we would move ahead immeasurably. Unfortunately, that's just a pipe dream.

I've moved to Norway, Sweden, Finland and I'm now probably going to move to america.

I've bothered to learn every single language of those countries well enough as I could.

I've moved to Norway, Sweden, Finland and I'm now probably going to move to america.

I've bothered to learn every single language of those countries well enough as I could.
America -- and we don't want your kind, son. :p (Not unless you learn to speak English.)

America -- and we don't want your kind, son. :p

With your 10 trillion deficit, I dont think you really have a say in this, grandpa.

And I know how to speak English, Jesus H Christ, I just choose not to go grammar nazi every fucking post. Why? This takes up time. Time is precious. Seconds ebbing away that will never return. Time is valuable, I would like to keep as much as mine as possible.

I've moved to Norway, Sweden, Finland and I'm now probably going to move to america.

I've bothered to learn every single language of those countries well enough as I could.

You have, indeed, supported my contention, not opposed it. I said that people don't put themselves through the upheaval of moving between countries simply to scrounge off benefits. They do so because they are motivated to make a better life for themselves. They want to find a job and work, want to learn the language and get involved in life.

With your 10 trillion deficit, I dont think you really have a say in this, grandpa.

And I know how to speak English, Jesus H Christ, I just choose not to go grammar nazi every fucking post. Why? This takes up time. Time is precious. Seconds ebbing away that will never return. Time is valuable, I would like to keep as much as mine as possible.
That's "grandMA" to you, whippersnapper, and I was not aware that the UK was doing all that much better. Are you bringing us bags of money? No? Then learn how to diagram a sentence.

EDIT: Also, have you ever heard the expression "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over"? It's a jab against incompetence (in the office worker racket, we get to cite it often). Considering that bad language skills lead to misunderstandings, I think you will find that taking the time to express yourself correctly will end up saving you time in the long run, because you won't have to spend hours and hours explaining what you meant.

You have, indeed, supported my contention, not opposed it. I said that people don't put themselves through the upheaval of moving between countries simply to scrounge off benefits. They do so because they are motivated to make a better life for themselves. They want to find a job and work, want to learn the language and get involved in life.

And yet not all of them do, some of them are content with speaking their language and expecting us to do their work. Sure; life may have been hard in their previous country, but dont expect us to clean up after you.

That's "grandMA" to you, whippersnapper, and I was not aware that the UK was doing all that much better. Are you bringing us bags of money? No? Then learn how to diagram a sentence.

I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn English, American.

Example :


Color

Shut up until you dont bastardize English, then we'll talk.

And yet not all of them do, some of them are content with speaking their language and expecting us to do their work. Sure; life may have been hard in their previous country, but dont expect us to clean up after you.

Where are these mysterious scavengers, these immigrants who never work? Give me articles, give me sources, give me facts, figures, and studies. I always see people claiming they exist, and somehow they never manage to produce any evidence for it.

I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn English, American.

Example :


Color

Shut up until you dont bastardize English, then we'll talk.

Example: bastardize.

If you're going to rag on people for using Americanisations, you might want to make sure you aren't doing so as well.

Example: bastardize.

If you're going to rag on people for using Americanisations, you might want to make sure you aren't doing so as well.

Wow, its not my exact fault that most of your population spends their lifetime on the internet, making it hard for me to discern different spellings between the two. I know the basic ones, I'm sorry Grandma; but I'm going to have to do this :

Load up on lulz, bring your memes
Its fun to troll and to believe
She's a trap, so self-assured
Oh yes! I know, a dirty word

Here we are now, entertain us
The internets are boring, and so dangerous ....

There is a thing called laziness.


And yet not all of them do, some of them are content with speaking their language and expecting us to do their work

No one should expect you to do any work, I guess. Wouldn't want you to break a sweat after that strenuous workout you got, typing a period and all...

I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn to speak English, American.

Example :


Color

Shut up until you stop bastardizing English. Then we'll talk.
Sigh, this game is getting boring. I'm done teasing you, kid. Laziness, ignorance, knowing that you are wrong and refusing to correct yourself, arguing unsupported claims [edit] and, when called on it, defending your ignorance -- I think that sums you up. And only 13. Such a shame.

EDIT: By the way, remember your own rule: Immigrants should learn to speak the local language. If you move to the US, you better spell "color" the same way I do.

No one should expect you to do any work, I guess. Wouldn't want you to break a sweat after that strenuous workout you got, typing a period and all...

I know ... It makes me pop a blood vessel every darn time.

I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn English, American.

Example :


Color

Shut up until you dont bastardize English, then we'll talk.
Don't do this. It will result in a totally irrelevant and stupid argument.

Wow, its not my exact fault that most of your population spends their lifetime on the internet, making it hard for me to discern different spellings between the two. I know the basic ones, I'm sorry Grandma; but I'm going to have to do this :

Load up on lulz, bring your memes
Its fun to troll and to believe
She's a trap, so self-assured
Oh yes! I know, a dirty word

Here we are now, entertain us
The internets are boring, and so dangerous ....

I'm British (at least when spelling), so I'm not quite sure where you got `your' population from there.

Just pointing out, really, that if you're going to insist on the conventions of one country, it pays to ensure you are using aforementioned conventions.

And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.

That's more people are too lazy to read a contract.

Any way you cut it, it comes down to people not communicating. Whether it's because they're unable, or because they're too lazy to use their brains for a few minutes, it doesn't really matter. In the end one is just as bad as the other, except of course that immigrants have a perfectly understandable and reasonable reason.


That and Legalese is like a professional dialect of English.

Yeah, but nothing that can't be unraveled if you're fluent in English and have some working neurons.

Example: bastardize.

If you're going to rag on people for using Americanisations, you might want to make sure you aren't doing so as well.
Haha, good catch. :D Being an American, I didn't even notice that he shouldn't have used the American spelling.

And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.
Who are you talking to?

Why you, of course.

Sadly it all gets lost in the 933983984 posts that take place every 5 seconds.

And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.

So, you assume you'll do better than them because they see arguing with you as a form of entertainment?

I see.

Why you, of course.

Sadly it all gets lost in the 933983984 posts that take place every 5 seconds.
That's why there is a quote button. Try using it.

So, you assume you'll do better than them because they see arguing with you as a form of entertainment?

I see.
He's probably right. For instance, the past hour of my life would probably have been better spent trying to teach my cat to balance my checkbook than arguing anything with him.

Haha, good catch. :D Being an American, I didn't even notice that he shouldn't have used the American spelling.

Thank you.

And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.

Nah, I'm just killing time before going to bed. After all, I'm off tomorrow to visit one of the top 10 universities in the country*, to consider whether to take them up on their offer of a place. Obviously going to end up nowhere in life.

By the way, remember your own rule: Immigrants should learn to speak the local language. If you move to the US, you better spell "color" the same way I do.

If it works one way, it better work the other way. And he better get on his knees and pray to whomever he prays to that he doesn't wind up with me as a teacher. I'm a grammar Stalinist.

He's probably right. For instance, the past hour of my life would probably have been better spent trying to teach my cat to balance my checkbook than arguing anything with him.

And how good is your cat at balancing the checkbook?

And how good is your cat at balancing the checkbook?
Not very. ;)

Not very. ;)

Well, of course the cat isn't good at balancing a checkbook. Cats have better things to do. Like sleep. :p

Not very. ;)

Well, what are you doing here then? Go teach it!

I was born here and so were my ancestors- it is my right to have an education.


The problem with this kind of 'logic' is that it relies on the acceptance of the assumptions - which means your 'argument' is easily defeated by simply not accepting your terms.

And, since there's nothing empirical about them, and they're nothing more than opinion, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

Example: You have no right to an education, because your ancestors were born here. You're not going to accept my terms, I don't accept yours - and neither terms are empirical, so both arguments are equally valid.

With your 10 trillion deficit, I dont think you really have a say in this, grandpa.

And I know how to speak English, Jesus H Christ, I just choose not to go grammar nazi every fucking post. Why? This takes up time. Time is precious. Seconds ebbing away that will never return. Time is valuable, I would like to keep as much as mine as possible.

So, you have time to tell others to learn the language but are too lazy to practice it well yourself?

Time to do it poorly, but not well?

You're doing great things for the mentality you foment. Really.

That's pathetic.

How the hell did you ever become a world superpower? Your history should be revoked.

So the UK and the US, both noted for being multicultural, both had a nice stretch of time where they were the dominant and defining superpower in the world?

Do I detect a pattern, perchance?

My new working theory:

Those who rant about how multiculturalism will destroy The West are simply people who've never found a really good Indian restaurant.

Multiculturalism is delicious. FACT.

I prefer East Asian cuisine myself, but thankfully I can find that just as easi--Oh. Oh, I see what you did there.

Well played, Madam Bottle.

No, an American trying to do a British accent is embaressing and offensive.

Oh, you're one to talk. For every Hugh Laurie or Daniel-Day Lewis there are about a hundred of you limey brits that try and imitate an American accent by mimicking something that resembles a box of kittens being stuffed into a blender.

No. This was settled in the land mark Supreme Court of England and Wales case, Madonna v. Everyone in England and Wales, wherein the Honorable Mr. Justice Tugendhat released the following ruling:

"Stop. Just stop. You wretched, foul, spent, leather handbag with eyeballs of a woman. You will stop. For the Queen, for God, for all our sakes you won't do it anymore. And the Sergeant at Arms will kindly take the pistol away from Mr. Ritchie, or at least compel him to remove the weapon from his mouth. And stop crying.

One of America's earliest international trolls. *sniff*

Wow, have you even taking into account that for the most part I spelt it correctly? I am 13, man. I cant be expected to win a medal for my writing skills

The only award you should be expecting is a Darwin.

With your 10 trillion deficit, I dont think you really have a say in this, grandpa.

Your life is going to be so entertaining when you get out into the real world, and nobody appreciates your childish arrogance. I mean, you probably won't find it funny, but whatever

And I know how to speak English, Jesus H Christ, I just choose not to go grammar nazi every fucking post. Why? This takes up time. Time is precious. Seconds ebbing away that will never return. Time is valuable, I would like to keep as much as mine as possible.

Well we certainly wouldn't want you to go wasting any time, would we? How silly would that be?

I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn English, American.

Funny coming from someone who can't seem to write in any dialect of English.

Example :


Color

Shut up until you dont bastardize English, then we'll talk.

You're funny, but I think you could benefit from puppets.

And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.

We're not arguing to win, child. We did that from your first post. You're just entertaining.

If you attempt to speak the language, then we're fine; if you dont then fuck off out of my country if you dont want to be civilized.
There is absolutely nothing civilized about a people who pronouce "Featheringstonehaugh" as "Fanshaw."

There is absolutely nothing civilized about a people who pronouce "Featheringstonehaugh" as "Fanshaw."

Mr Cholmondely-Warner disagrees...:p

Mr Cholmondely-Warner disagrees...:p
I suppose I shouldn't throw stones, though, since I did live in Boston for many years. The mark of colonialism has never left that area of the country, and I still remember my innocent midwestern shock when I learned that "Worchester" is pronounced "Woo-stah."

I suppose I shouldn't throw stones, though, since I did live in Boston for many years. The mark of colonialism has never left that area of the country, and I still remember my innocent midwestern shock when I learned that "Worchester" is pronounced "Woo-stah."

Bumpah stickah for the cah. :p
(Saw that on an actual bumper sticker.)

I suppose I shouldn't throw stones, though, since I did live in Boston for many years. The mark of colonialism has never left that area of the country, and I still remember my innocent midwestern shock when I learned that "Worchester" is pronounced "Woo-stah."

Worcester, not Worchester.

Worcester, not Worchester.
Really? I've seen people who pronounce it "Woo-stah" spell it with the H in there.

Which means they're adding an incorrect H just so they can fail to pronounce it.

I think I just died a little inside.

Really? I've seen people who pronounce it "Woo-stah" spell it with the H in there.

Which means they're adding an incorrect H just so they can fail to pronounce it.

I think I just died a little inside.

The only people spelling Worcester, MA as "Worchester" are morons or people pretending to be from Massachusetts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester,_Massachusetts

It's really simple. What is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce)?

What is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce)?
A poor substitute for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson%27s_Relish).

A poor substitute for this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henderson%27s_Relish).

I've never had Henderson's. For that matter, is it even possible to get it in the US?

I support this motherfucker
Um, thanks? I don'y know if you know this, but calling someone a mother fucker is not the best way to show support. Please do not do it in the future- you make yourself look bad and more importantly you make me look bad.

Fuck all these non-english speaking bitches crowding up MY England, its ENGLAND for a reason, not '' HEY ALL YOU MIDDLE EASTERN TYPES COME OVERFILL OUR COUNTRY FUCK YEAH ''.
Argh, what's wrong with you? You just destroyed my argument faster than even I could.
On the plus side, at least he's open about his racism.
Oh, and I'm not? That's because I'm not racist- I'm xenophobic. There's a difference.
Hey Luldom, I was born in Pakistan, and have moved over to the UK. Got anything to say about that?
I love the fact that he left the fact you were born in Pakistan unanswered. Fucking brilliant.

Theres a reason england speaks english, its our national language
England is a country. It is physically impossible for a country to speak any language. The people in England might well speak English, but England can't as it is just a lump of rock.

And I'm not going to give it up for some punk from some country I haven't even heard about because he's in a minority.
This says more about your own ignorance than anything else.
To be fair, being able to speak clear English and write it with perfect grammar, orthography etc. are two different things.
Exactly what I've been trying to say in many a post.
Why it's another superior-cultured individual who's never heard of the period! What a coincidence and how original.
Will you stop going on about your bloody periods. It's called a full stop.


And can anyone tell me why supposedly patriotic chav culture warrior types always try to talk like black American gangstas?
Lulz at this. Why do all the skinny white kids want to be black? It seems highly illogical, especially considering he is so openly racist.
P.S You spelt Gangsters wrong:p
Wow, real fucking mature; rip on a person for his grammar. There is a thing called laziness.
You display this flaw very well. My spelling is atrocious but I put in effort on this thing to make it legible.


I'm just pissed about the fact that places like Aylesbury are now all indian/muslim towns and that white people are starting to become a minority in briatain, not to mention people who come over from around the world to claim our benefits, not bothering to learn our language and decide they own the entire goddamn country.

I love the fact that you don't distinguish between Indians and Muslims. How ignorant can you be? There are very few Muslims in India. You clearly know little about the fall of our empire. The whole peninsular used to be Know as India. But when we gave it back it had to be split into India(mostly Hindu, with some Muslims and Buddhists), Pakistan (Muslim) and Bangladesh( East Pakistan) Due to the conflict between the religions. Hence why the Indian flag is similar to the Irish one. Green represents one religion, the orange the other and the white is for peace (the Buddhists are represented by the wheel).
Wow, have you even taking into account that for the most part I spelt it correctly? I am 13, man. I cant be expected to win a medal for my writing skills.
Is that any excuse? Ever since I joined this thing I have been ridiculed because of my spelling and grammar. Either get used to it or improve.



But we are still on our way.
Proof?


Communication is communication, whether verbal or written.

Maybe if people placed a bit more value on written language, there wouldn't be so many people entering into contracts they have no idea what the fuck are about. Or getting certain kinds of loans. Or mistakenly voting for the wrong people. At the very least, everyone should learn how to communicate if for no other reason than to not sound like an ignorant fool.

Who the hell do you know that voted for the wrong person?
I do add to the society by being an intelligent young teenager,
Scoff.
because I have a few issues with england slowly becoming less english should be pretty easy to understand.
Why do you always refer to this country as England ( or rather england)? It's the UK.
Thank fuck I'm moving soon.
Hypocrite
No excuse. When I was 13, if I had written something that badly, I would have been sentenced to extra homework to make sure I understood my mistakes and would never repeat them. Also, you can be damned sure my teachers would have made hay with the irony of my subject as well.
Well thank god it's not the stone age any more.:p

Oh! Oh! Too lazy... finger can reach all keys... except... period key....
Please please please, stop writing period it infuriates me. I can just imagine some with a really strong Ameriacan accent saying it. It makes me cringe.
It's called ENGLAND for a reason you know, not ENGL -AH-FUCK-IT-IM-TOO-INEXPLICABLY-LAZY-TO-FINISH.
I Giggled.:tongue:



I'm laughing at how you tell me to learn English, American.

Example :


Color
Shut up until you dont bastardize English, then we'll talk.
Bolded for Irony. Your a fucking comic genius.
I know the basic ones, I'm sorry Grandma; but I'm going to have to do this :

Load up on lulz, bring your memes
Its fun to troll and to believe
She's a trap, so self-assured
Oh yes! I know, a dirty word

Here we are now, entertain us
The internets are boring, and so dangerous ....
WTF?
I'm British (at least when spelling), so I'm not quite sure where you got `your' population from there.
So your only British when spelling? what about the rest of the time?


And yet you are here why? Face it; I'm going to come out on life better then you. How come? Because I'm not the one sitting at my computer arguing with a 13 year old.
The arrogance seeps out of your every pour.


Nah, I'm just killing time before going to bed. After all, I'm off tomorrow to visit one of the top 10 universities in the country*, to consider whether to take them up on their offer of a place. Obviously going to end up nowhere in life.
Really? Which one? I seem to remember you saying something about Cambridge.
The problem with this kind of 'logic' is that it relies on the acceptance of the assumptions - which means your 'argument' is easily defeated by simply not accepting your terms.

And, since there's nothing empirical about them, and they're nothing more than opinion, there ain't a damn thing you can do about it.

Example: You have no right to an education, because your ancestors were born here. You're not going to accept my terms, I don't accept yours - and neither terms are empirical, so both arguments are equally valid.
I know I hate arguing when it is clear neither side can prevail. Two strong opinions cancel each other. It doesn't help that Loldom is the only other right winger. The guy isn't exactly helpful.

One of America's earliest international trolls. *sniff*

Apparently, when Ben Franklin went to England in 1757, he tried very hard to reconcile his Colonial speech with the English manner.

Mostly, he kept going up to people who were smoking and saying "Hey, can I borrow a fag? Is that a fag in your mouth? You seem to really be enjoying sucking on that fag, ya geeza!"

It didn't go well.

It doesn't help that Loldom is the only other right winger. The guy isn't exactly helpful.

Worse, I'm afraid - because I'm pretty sure that Luldom is a trollpuppet. (The accidental americanizations, and the claims at being from Leicester, yet talking about Aylesbury as being a centre of 'ethnic' majority, suggest as much.)

Worse, I'm afraid - because I'm pretty sure that Luldom is a trollpuppet. (The accidental americanizations, and the claims at being from Leicester, yet talking about Aylesbury as being a centre of 'ethnic' majority, suggest as much.)

I wouldn't hang him for Americanisations. I still use them occasionally.

I think it comes from constant exposure to them in the UK. (internet, American literature etc.)

I wouldn't hang him for Americanisations. I still use them occasionally.

I think it comes from constant exposure to them in the UK. (internet, American literature etc.)

Its only fair. You lot sent us Benny Hill. And Red Dwarf.




Wait, I love Benny Hill and Red Dwarf....

Its only fair. You lot sent us Benny Hill. And Red Dwarf.




Wait, I love Benny Hill and Red Dwarf....

We also sent you Bean. Sorry about that.

Actually... you kinda scraped Madonna off on us, so we're even.

We also sent you Bean. Sorry about that.

Actually... you kinda scraped Madonna off on us, so we're even.

And then you countered with the Beckhams, Simon Cowell and by extension Pop Idol, Gordon Ramsay...

We also sent you Bean. Sorry about that.

Actually... you kinda scraped Madonna off on us, so we're even.

I kind of liked Blackadder.

S'okay. The High Court of England and South Wales is sending her back, per the ruling I cited earlier.

I kind of liked Blackadder.

S'okay. The High Court of England and South Wales is sending her back, per the ruling I cited earlier.

Blackadder is the virtue that makes the sin of Bean all the more heinous. We knew he could be funny - we'd seen him do it. So, peddling that painful Bean bullshit to you poor folks as comedy, when we KNEW it wasn't? No wonder Obama gives Brits such crappy presents.

And then you countered with the Beckhams, Simon Cowell and by extension Pop Idol, Gordon Ramsay...

We still have Ruby Wax though.

You guys still owe us. Can Prince Charles stay at your place?

Blackadder is the virtue that makes the sin of Bean all the more heinous. We knew he could be funny - we'd seen him do it. So, peddling that painful Bean bullshit to you poor folks as comedy, when we KNEW it wasn't? No wonder Obama gives Brits such crappy presents.

I resent that. Bean was a classic compared to Johnny English.

Blackadder is the virtue that makes the sin of Bean all the more heinous. We knew he could be funny - we'd seen him do it. So, peddling that painful Bean bullshit to you poor folks as comedy, when we KNEW it wasn't? No wonder Obama gives Brits such crappy presents.

I have a question. I've noticed in the UK, expensive private institutions with selective admissions standards are called "Public Schools."

In the US that term applies to the publically funded schools that are generally open admissions.

Does the UK use the term "Public School" because the children educated there are likely to service in public institutions, like government or the military?

I have a question. I've noticed in the UK, expensive private institutions with selective admissions standards are called "Public Schools."

In the US that term applies to the publically funded schools that are generally open admissions.

Does the UK use the term "Public School" because the children educated there are likely to service in public institutions, like government or the military?

Public school and private school are both fee paying. Public admits without an entrance exam, private requires one.

What you yanks call a public school we call state schools.

I have a question. I've noticed in the UK, expensive private institutions with selective admissions standards are called "Public Schools."

In the US that term applies to the publically funded schools that are generally open admissions.

Does the UK use the term "Public School" because the children educated there are likely to service in public institutions, like government or the military?

I believe it's something to do with the fact that anyone can theoretically go there - it's not attached to a church, for example. Our education system has changed, somewhat, over the last few centuries, but a lot of the traditions (and, in this case, the 'name') have remained.

Either that - or it's a mis-spelling of 'pubic'.

Public admits without an entrance exam, private requires one.


Heh, I didn't actually know that.

Heh, I didn't actually know that.

I could be making it all up but that's my understanding.

I could be making it all up but that's my understanding.

I'm pretty sure most Public Schools use the same 'Common Entrance Examination' that Private Schools do... and neither Public nor Private are compelled to adhere to the results of such testing.

Blackadder is the virtue that makes the sin of Bean all the more heinous. We knew he could be funny - we'd seen him do it. So, peddling that painful Bean bullshit to you poor folks as comedy, when we KNEW it wasn't? No wonder Obama gives Brits such crappy presents.

Gordon Brown: *gives penholder* So...we cool?

Barack Obama: *gives DVDs* No. Fuck off.

Um Potato Boy, without Britain, that lovely continental penal colony you call a home wouldn't have existed as anything but Aboriginal land in the first place. Brilliant foresight much?

Umm, no because the French would have got to it first. Thank God for the British.

....

No, why would I be racist towards myself?

Because you said that we should adopt the cultural practices of wherever we emigrate to.

Are you now saying that there are limits as to what we should adopt in terms of cultural practices?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25213217-23109,00.html



So, even this guy, who immigrated himself, says that immigrants aren't making enough of an effort to integrate. What do you have to say to that, NSG?

i say he's a friggin loonie, and all nations are a bit loonie for wanting their emigrants to be that way.

on the other hand of course, all americans SHOULD be speaking the languages and living by cultural mores of the indiginous cultures that were where they are now, instead of american 'english', and (instead of) putting economic intrests ahead of the land and the shared well being of everyone who lives on it.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25213217-23109,00.html



So, even this guy, who immigrated himself, says that immigrants aren't making enough of an effort to integrate. What do you have to say to that, NSG?

Good for him. When I studied abroad in college I tried my best to speak the language of my host country. I sounded funny and most people there could speak English but I figured that I should at least be polite enough to try to speak their language rather than insist that they speak mine.

So much more should be expected of people who actually go to another country to live there.

Good for him. When I studied abroad in college I tried my best to speak the language of my host country. I sounded funny and most people there could speak English but I figured that I should at least be polite enough to try to speak their language rather than insist that they speak mine.

So much more should be expected of people who actually go to another country to live there.

i absolutely agree about the politeness and consideration thing. but doesn't that mean the english in scotland should be speaking scotts Gallic? and iresh in ireland, cymri in wales, et al?

people in my part of california at any rate, ought to be speaking nissinan maidu.

i absolutely agree about the politeness and consideration thing. but doesn't that mean the english in scotland should be speaking scotts Gallic? and iresh in ireland, cymri in wales, et al?

people in my part of california at any rate, ought to be speaking nissinan maidu.

One of the fundamental rules of the linguistic game is that conquerors get to make the rules. One example of this is the impact that French had on English after William conquered England. "Cow" is similar to the Dutch "coe". I sorta think that Dutch is a similar language to that spoken by the native English. "Boeuf" is modern French for beef and is a pretty similar word.

If you read between the lines, the language of peasants and agriculture survived (we say Cow instead of some variant of "vache"--French for cow), whereas the language of dining (the conquering nobles ate the products of the agriculture) became dominated by the French. Heck, even the distinction between to eat (from the Germanic and I will use the Dutch "eten" seems arther lowly compared to "to dine" from the French "diner".

i say he's a friggin loonie, and all nations are a bit loonie for wanting their emigrants to be that way.

on the other hand of course, all americans SHOULD be speaking the languages and living by cultural mores of the indiginous cultures that were where they are now, instead of american 'english', and (instead of) putting economic intrests ahead of the land and the shared well being of everyone who lives on it.

I understand but disagree with point 1. I do not understand point 2.

One of the fundamental rules of the linguistic game is that conquerors get to make the rules.

how is conquerors making the rules not the same impoliteness, compounded?

sorry, i exercise my sovereign right as a sentient awareness to not buy into the myth of rights of conquest. a fiate accompli does not a moral right make. ever.

examples are pointless and irrelevant.

fiate accompli are real, a part of reality, undeniably do exist. the "right" of conquest is a mythical beast. utterly and entirely.

how is conquerors making the rules not the same impoliteness, compounded?

sorry, i exercise my sovereign right as a sentient awareness to not buy into the myth of rights of conquest. a fiate accompli does not a moral right make. ever.

examples are pointless and irrelevant.

fiate accompli are real, a part of reality, undeniably do exist. the "right" of conquest is a mythical beast. utterly and entirely.

Then why are you writing in English?

Then why are you writing in English?

Barely speaking English.

Barely speaking English.

Like YOU can talk.

Cameroi is Polish. Do you want to get him off the forum for being Polish too?

Then why are you writing in English?

For your benefit, so that you may have a chance to understand what he's writing.

Then why are you writing in English?

When in Rome....

It is a British website, after all.

Like YOU can talk.

Cameroi is Polish. Do you want to get him off the forum for being Polish too?

Hey man, the internet is lawless- what do I care. But I don't want him to move here.

But I don't want him to move here.

Good thing that's not up to you.

Good thing that's not up to you.

It should be. I'd sort this country out.

Cameroi seems to be upset that he is not writing in Nissinian Maidu. I never heard of that language. I do not mind that he is writing in English. I do not even know if NM has a written language.

Cameroi can believe that conquest should not have an effect on linguistics. I do not think that Cameroi or anyone else denies that it does.

It should be. I'd sort this country out.
Uhu... I don't think so. What you'd actually do is try to ban immigration, at which point you get reciprocal measures from the rest of the EU and other states in the world. If you leave the EU, you lose the CAP, as well as a load of trading benefits. This is Not A Good Thing.

Obviously, best of luck in running for office. If you want to be a retarded xenophobe, the best places to start would be Stoke and Burnley, although obviously you'd probably be told to fuck off for not coming from around there.

Cameroi can believe that conquest should not have an effect on linguistics. I do not think that Cameroi or anyone else denies that it does.

He said it shouldn't.

By the way, a goodly portion of the English language? Latin.

So it cuts both ways.

It should be. I'd sort this country out.

I'm certain you think so.

Uhu... I don't think so. What you'd actually do is try to ban immigration, at which point you get reciprocal measures from the rest of the EU and other states in the world. If you leave the EU, you lose the CAP, as well as a load of trading benefits. This is Not A Good Thing.
We'd stop losing £43m a day so...
If we got rid of the immigrants the British unemployed and homeless would b sorted to.
I care not only about immigration though. I'd stop Political corectness and health and saftey getting way out of control.
Obviously, best of luck in running for office. If you want to be a retarded xenophobe, the best places to start would be Stoke and Burnley, although obviously you'd probably be told to fuck off for not coming from around there.
Redarted? Thats a bit harsh isn't it? I prefer the term mentaly chalenged.
And why would I go to stoke or Burnley? I wouldn't understand their bloody accents.
I'm certain you think so.

Oh, and what would you do as PM? ( not that you could ever do that any way as your Brazilian)

He said it shouldn't.

By the way, a goodly portion of the English language? Latin.

So it cuts both ways.

Cameroi said it should not.

One of the things I like about English is that it has a lot of influences. I think it is the perfect melting pot language for the USA which is a melting pot country.

I do not think that anything is cutting both ways. I do not see your point. There is nothing really contraverted. However, I do not know if there is any Nissinian Maidu impact on English so to the point that anything relevant cuts two ways, it does not.

We'd stop losing £43m a day so..
To what...
If we got rid of the immigrants the British unemployed and homeless would b sorted to.
Err why?

The unemployed are largely unemployed because a lot of companies are using the stock markets as an excuse to lay people off - just because immigrant labour is replaced by British labour doesn't mean there won't be more cuts, not to mention the economic impact of having to pay everyone properly.

If you start using British labour on farms and also lose CAP payments, the agricultural sector will die on its knees.
I care not only about immigration though.
Oh good. Onto 2 more Mail/Express hot-button issues, then.
I'd stop Political corectness and health and saftey getting way out of control.
1) Political correctness has its place.
2) Health and safety legislation has significantly reduced accidents at work over the years, why would you want to cut down on it? Because you're an Express reader with no clue?
Redarted? Thats a bit harsh isn't it?
Evidently not.
And why would I go to stoke or Burnley? I wouldn't understand their bloody accents.
Because they're full of small-minded plebs who vote for the BNP.

Oh, and what would you do as PM?

Better than you.

One of the fundamental rules of the linguistic game is that conquerors get to make the rules. One example of this is the impact that French had on English after William conquered England. "Cow" is similar to the Dutch "coe". I sorta think that Dutch is a similar language to that spoken by the native English. "Boeuf" is modern French for beef and is a pretty similar word.

If you read between the lines, the language of peasants and agriculture survived (we say Cow instead of some variant of "vache"--French for cow), whereas the language of dining (the conquering nobles ate the products of the agriculture) became dominated by the French. Heck, even the distinction between to eat (from the Germanic and I will use the Dutch "eten" seems arther lowly compared to "to dine" from the French "diner".

That's not a 'rule of linguistics'. That's the aftermath of occupation.

'Linguistics' doesn't care if the invaders use the language of the 'barbarians' or if the conquered culture adopts the invader. Indeed, what usually happens is a bit of each.

Then why are you writing in English?

My guess would be that it is something to do with the popularity of English as a primary or secondary language, coupled with the fact that NS is a primarily English-language forum.

It's not exactly rocket science.

So your only British when spelling? what about the rest of the time?

Consider nations to be a bunch of nonsense, if you recall. I'm human, not British.


Really? Which one? I seem to remember you saying something about Cambridge.

Durham, my insurance choice.

Hey man, the internet is lawless- what do I care. But I don't want him to move here.

Jeez. Who the hell wants to move to Kent?

All the trees in Kent point towards the middle, that's how much it sucks.

That's not a 'rule of linguistics'. That's the aftermath of occupation.

'Linguistics' doesn't care if the invaders use the language of the 'barbarians' or if the conquered culture adopts the invader. Indeed, what usually happens is a bit of each.

I never meant to say anything to the contrary of your second paragraph. If a conquest is as complete as the conquest of the native americans was, there will be little or no trace of the indiginous language in the conquered location.

I never meant to say anything to the contrary of your second paragraph. If a conquest is as complete as the conquest of the native americans was, there will be little or no trace of the indiginous language in the conquered location.

So entirely untrue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_from_indigenous_languages_of_the_Americas

edit: Further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_placenames_of_indigenous_origin_in_the_Americas

I never meant to say anything to the contrary of your second paragraph. If a conquest is as complete as the conquest of the native americans was, there will be little or no trace of the indiginous language in the conquered location.

You said it was a 'rule of linguistics'... and clearly, it's no such thing.

You said the conquerors basically set up how the language is going to work - and that's simply not true either - just look at the fact that a quarter of the English language is based in Greek, and then show me when the Greeks conquered England?

Indeed, in order to TRY to support your argument, you had to appeal to (practical) genocide, to see 'linguistics' truly determined by the victor. Which kind of goes without saying.

As a note - I live in Georgia, and half the towns around me either have 'native' names, or names based on 'native' names.

Jeez. Who the hell wants to move to Kent?

All the trees in Kent point towards the middle, that's how much it sucks.

Hey! Kent is where I'm from. Knock the post not the poster and Kent (well you can knock Chatham...)

Moving on...

You would sort this country out RoI?

Really? Getting rid of immigrant labourers would not suddenly mean unemployment disappeared. Why?

Because not all immigrants work in small, easy to learn jobs. You get rid of the immigrant population then suddenly you lose 10% of the GDP and that is no laughing matter.

Pulling out of the EU?

Well goodbye to the majority of financing that is allowing the north of the country to get back on its financial feet. And farming suffers. Plus import costs go up as well as export costs.

To what...
The EU
Err why?
Because the houses that immigrants have go to British people and the same with jobs.

Oh good. Onto 2 more Mail/Express hot-button issues, then.
Oh god, do you really think I read that drivel? Urgh.
1) Political correctness has its place.
It had it's place and then it went past it.
2) Health and safety legislation has significantly reduced accidents at work over the years, why would you want to cut down on it? Because you're an Express reader with no clue?
They've also restricted all sorts of jobs and establishments. Jesus Christ it's riduclus.
[/QUOTE]

Better than you.
Firstly, that sentance makes no sence. Secondly, what would you do?
Consider nations to be a bunch of nonsense, if you recall. I'm human, not British.
So you don't feel like you belong to any country? Thats fucked up. I know you have 2 different nationalities and were born in pakistan, but you must feel like you belong to 1 of them atleast.


Durham, my insurance choice.
8th best? Impressive.
Jeez. Who the hell wants to move to Kent?

All the trees in Kent point towards the middle, that's how much it sucks.

Have you ever been here? No? Thats what I thought.

The EU
Uhu... the benefits that British industry gets from EU membership are huge.
Because the houses that immigrants have go to British people and the same with jobs.
Yeah and I've explained why that's a shower of shite. Just means higher costs.
They've also restricted all sorts of jobs and establishments. Jesus Christ it's riduclus.
Such as?

Hey! Kent is where I'm from.
Really? What bit?

Knock the post not the poster and Kent (well you can knock Chatham...)
Lulz at this.

Really? Getting rid of immigrant labourers would not suddenly mean unemployment disappeared. Why?

The jobs they had would go to brits, simple.

-snip-

Forget to log into your nation account, londim?

Really? What bit?
Knock the post not the poster and Kent (well you can knock Chatham...)
Lulz at this.



Gravesendium


The jobs they had would go to brits, simple.

Do you think there are hundreds of doctors, nurses or plumbers just waiting in the wings?

Forget to log into your nation account, londim?

Yes I did and it won't let me revive it.

The jobs they had would go to brits, simple.

What about immagrints whohave gone to uni and work as things like Doctors, or those who work in a skilled labor job? You assume the unemployed Brits are able to take those jobs.

But at least theyll be white, right?

Hey! Kent is where I'm from. Knock the post not the poster and Kent (well you can knock Chatham...)


I wasn't knocking the poster. One assumes it's not his/her fault that he/she is from Kent.

You know why birds fly over Kent upside-down? There's nothing worth shitting on.

Have you ever been here? No? Thats what I thought.

Lived there, worked there, had family there, actually.

There's the stereotypical problem when you assume, as I'm sure you know, so I'll not bother boring you with repetition.

So you don't feel like you belong to any country? Thats fucked up. I know you have 2 different nationalities and were born in pakistan, but you must feel like you belong to 1 of them atleast.

Nope. I have loyalty to people, not places; to friends, not nations. Look at a nation such as America or Britain. Millions of people, representing nearly every possible political and economic position, every possible spiritual belief and occupation. To suggest that there can be some sort of common bond between all of these people seems to me ridiculous. I have common bonds with some people in these `nations', certainly - friends, acquaintances, fellow left-wing crazies, etc - but not with all of them. And any notion of `patriotism' or `duty to the government' can go fuck itself - given what government has done over the years, loyalty to it is something I cannot defend.


8th best? Impressive.


Thank you.

Nope. I have loyalty to people, not places; to friends, not nations. Look at a nation such as America or Britain. Millions of people, representing nearly every possible political and economic position, every possible spiritual belief and occupation. To suggest that there can be some sort of common bond between all of these people seems to me ridiculous. I have common bonds with some people in these `nations', certainly - friends, acquaintances, fellow left-wing crazies, etc - but not with all of them. And any notion of `patriotism' or `duty to the government' can go fuck itself - given what government has done over the years, loyalty to it is something I cannot defend.


This is much my view. Citizen of the world, the only 'race' I claim is 'human'.

What about immagrints whohave gone to uni and work as things like Doctors, or those who work in a skilled labor job? You assume the unemployed Brits are able to take those jobs.

But at least theyll be white, right?
So we hang onto the skilled ones a little longer until British people can take their place.
Nope. I have loyalty to people, not places; to friends, not nations. Look at a nation such as America or Britain. Millions of people, representing nearly every possible political and economic position, every possible spiritual belief and occupation. To suggest that there can be some sort of common bond between all of these people seems to me ridiculous. I have common bonds with some people in these `nations', certainly - friends, acquaintances, fellow left-wing crazies, etc - but not with all of them. And any notion of `patriotism' or `duty to the government' can go fuck itself - given what government has done over the years, loyalty to it is something I cannot defend.

Yeah I know our governments terrible isn't it? What with giving you a free education and health care.
This is much my view. Citizen of the world, the only 'race' I claim is 'human'.
Bullocks.

Bullocks.

Yours.

To.

Prove.

So we hang onto the skilled ones a little longer until British people can take their place.

Why would they stay that long just so they can be deported?

Bullocks.

Sorry you disagree.

Yours.

To.

Prove.

Well you see, there's whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, ect.
Is that enough for you?

So we hang onto the skilled ones a little longer until British people can take their place.

Yeah I know our governments terrible isn't it? What with giving you a free education and health care.

Bullocks.

Oh, murdering millions of people over time would fit into it. Spending vast sums of money on pointless wars. General oppression, unrepresentativeness, normal anarchist objections to rule by force, etc.

I like how you didn't even take issue with the rest of the paragraph, just the last sentence.

Well you see, there's whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, ect.
Is that enough for you?

Well you see, there's humans, humans, humans, humans, etc.

And that's all that matters.

Well you see, there's whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, ect.
Is that enough for you?

That doesnt really prove any sort of reason for nationalism.

Oh, murdering millions of people over time would fit into it. Spending vast sums of money on pointless wars. General oppression, unrepresentativeness, normal anarchist objections to rule by force, etc.

I like how you didn't even take issue with the rest of the paragraph, just the last sentence.

Did any of the above effect you? Has our government ever murdered any one you know? I doubt it. All that they have done to you is look after you, so what are you complaining about?

Well you see, there's humans, humans, humans, humans, etc.

And that's all that matters.

No it's not. Skin colour is not irrelevant AND IT NEVER HAS BEEN.

Did any of the above effect you? Has our government ever murdered any one you know? I doubt it. All that they have done to you is look after you, so what are you complaining about?

I believe its called compassion or alternatively empathy. You might want to look into it sometime.

So we hang onto the skilled ones a little longer until British people can take their place.

Why would they stay in your shithole country if they knew with 100% certainty that they would be deported just as soon as a suitable "native" was trained to take their place? Why not go to one of the many, many other nations that would not impose such idiotic policies?

Your nation would experience an unprecedented brain drain as absolutely no one came to your country to study or work.

Further, one wonders if you'd impose such short-sighted policies on all foreigners, or just those nasty dark ones. Would you start kicking out highly-skilled, educated Americans, Australians, South Africans, or New Zealanders? Or just the ones who couldn't speak English?

No it's not. Skin colour is not irrelevant AND IT NEVER HAS BEEN.

Prove it.

Well you see, there's whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, ect.
Is that enough for you?

Given that we've spent all thread arguing that `race' is completely irrelevant, a tiny distinction between people fundamentally the same, you're going to need to do a hell of a lot better than that.

Bullocks.

I assume you mean 'bollocks'?

But - bollocks to what? You're claiming that's not my view? Wouldn't I know?

I believe its called compassion or alternatively empathy. You might want to look into it sometime.
No it's called being a lefty.
Why would they stay in your shithole country if they knew with 100% certainty that they would be deported just as soon as a suitable "native" was trained to take their place? Why not go to one of the many, many other nations that would not impose such idiotic policies?
Firstly, do not call the UK a shit hole. Secondly, immigrants are free to leave any time they like.

Further, one wonders if you'd impose such short-sighted policies on all foreigners, or just those nasty dark ones. Would you start kicking out highly-skilled, educated Americans, Australians, South Africans, or New Zealanders? Or just the ones who couldn't speak English?
Again, it's not about race, it's about being British and British people getting a better deal.

So we hang onto the skilled ones a little longer until British people can take their place.
Which, oddly, is what we already do. If a British candidate is more qualified for a particular post, he/she gets offered the job. The fact that immigrants are filling up posts demonstrates that there are not enough native born Britons to take their place. Demand is outstripping supply.

No it's not. Skin colour is not irrelevant AND IT NEVER HAS BEEN.

Skin color, race and nationality are irrelevant, always have been, always will be, and there's nothing you can do to change that inexorable fact.

Well you see, there's whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, ect.
Is that enough for you?

What is it supposed to 'prove'?

Skin colour doesn't define 'race'.