NationStates Jolt Archive

That's because you didn't actually prove that African immigrants are a gang problem in Australia. People only condemn those things that actually happen.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/Ethnic_crime_African.htm
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20974393-2702,00.html

Dicen que este gato Shaft es una madre mala,
Cierra la boca!
Estoy hablando de Shaft.
Entonces, podemos empújelo!

That made no sense, except for the "¡Cierra la boca!" part

http://www.australian-news.com.au/Ethnic_crime_African.htm
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20974393-2702,00.html

A commentary and an interview... so you've got no facts, not statistics, no police statements, just basically two opinions?

A commentary and an interview... so you've got no facts, not statistics, no police statements, just basically two opinions?

We just make this up as we go along. :rolleyes:

That made no sense, except for the "¡Cierra la boca!" part I know. I have really been enjoying terrible direct (and inaccurate) translations lately.

Estoy abajo con la escuela vieja.

I regularly encounter anglophone ex-pats or tourists here in Frankfurt needing directions or something. As a rule, they have the courtesy to ask me if I speak English, and since I do, I have the courtesy to help them. Other than the image of the rude tourist (never the rude ex-pat, strangely, even though the people who work here for a few years have more occasion to pick up the language than the ones who stay for a week), I haven't heard of any stigma that associates with this. This city has a big finance industry and is accordingly international.

But there is a lot of stigma associated with the Turkish immigrants who don't learn German.

So what is the difference? Is it because English is more widely spoken, or because the American bankers are richer and better dressed than the Turkish cleaning ladies?

I'm not making any judgment; I'm just eager to understand this.

I know. I have really been enjoying terrible direct (and inaccurate) translations lately.

Estoy abajo con la escuela vieja.

At least you are making the effort to integrate *wink, wink*

Regarding the main "topic" of this thread, I deeply believe that inmigrants should make the effort to learn the language, (a personal believe that I take into account in my life, but that I am careful enough to avoid to try to impose over others), but you have to take into account that it is really difficult for some people to integrate themselves, given that not all languages are equally easy for everyone. For example, I just arrived from three months in Japan, I made each and every effort to learn at least a bit of the language, and failed miserably. (So I had to leave). And I was supposed to be good at learning new languages. (May I'm too old already, maybe a lot of people are also too old already and face some learning problems).

Take into account that temporary workers, for instance, may lack the determination or motivation to learn the language...

Take into account that many people can defend themselves speaking in a foreign language, (for instance, my english), but have to switch to their native tongue when trying to explain more complicated or complex issues, sentiments, or concepts, (as happens with me and spanish). I can't write poetry in english for instance, even as hard as I try, or to write anything with at least a bit of "literate" value, even although I have tried really hard.

http://www.australian-news.com.au/Ethnic_crime_African.htm
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20974393-2702,00.html

The first one is a blog with an admitted bias.

It mentions a man with a few driving offences, and then a single carjacker, and then a mugging by an immigrant and a white guy, then two unsupported reports of gang activity.

So, I would count that as no evidence of immigrant gang activity.

The second is simply a warning from an African Australian warning the government that if they don't make more of an effort to integrate these young men, then gangs might be a problem.

Try harder.

I know. I have really been enjoying terrible direct (and inaccurate) translations lately.

Estoy abajo con la escuela vieja.

Estoy cadera.

Okay, let me get this straight.

FO finds a tabloid story about a moron who, likely after receiving treatment X in England, decided to dish it out to others.

FO treats said moron as if he were a big specialist in immigration in the UK - which is more or less like assuming a guy that got his teeth cleaned and sneers at people didn't to be UK's leading specialist in odontology, really.

The thread, about 5-hours old, goes on for eighteen pages.

People, aren't you giving FO too much credit?

Okay, let me get this straight.

FO finds a tabloid story about a moron who, likely after receiving treatment X in England, decided to dish it out to others.

FO treats said moron as if he were a big specialist in immigration in the UK - which is more or less like assuming a guy that got his teeth cleaned and sneers at people didn't to be UK's leading specialist in odontology, really.

The thread, about 5-hours old, goes on for eighteen pages.

People, aren't you giving FO too much credit?

*hangs head in shame*

It's a bit like teasing a barking dog in its kennel... :$

*hangs head in shame*

It's a bit like teasing a barking dog in its kennel... :$

What the hell are you talking about? I'm annoyed that this thread got to 18 pages before I got to come along and have my sadistic fun!

(I AM proud of the odontology analogy though, it WAS good, wasn't it?)

But you would have the time to enrol on state benefits when you got there?

I applaud Mr Sumarasiri's actions. I for one live in an area flooded with native Polish-speaking immigrants, the majority of whom have no intention of staying long enough to integrate, and yet claim handouts. The British government has a policy of assigning immigrants to areas depending on their nation of origin, creating large semi-foriegn neighbourhoods in otherwise English-majority towns.

I experience this policy on the recieving end, and I do not like it.

Seconded. This should be common decency in all nations, whether the situation is a Pakistani emigrating to Britain, or a British citizen emigrating to Russia. Have the grace to learn the language of your hosts.

Amen.

If these immigrants have to come hear they can at least learn English. Any immigrant should (after taking the citizenship test) be made to integrate into the community. They should have people a bit like probation officers who check up on them and make sure they learn our language and integrate into society. They shouldn't be given a penny until they have proven that they are willing to do this.

Amen.

If these immigrants have to come hear they can at least learn English. Any immigrant should (after taking the citizenship test) be made to integrate into the community. They should have people a bit like probation officers who check up on them and make sure they learn our language and integrate into society. They shouldn't be given a penny until they have proven that they are willing to do this.

Should they integrate in all aspects of the host culture, or just language?

Should they integrate in all aspects of the host culture, or just language?

And how would you check this anyway

Should they integrate in all aspects of the host culture, or just language?
Every thing. I'm not saying they should lose their heritage, just that they should embrace their new home's culture.
And how would you check this anyway
With peeps like probation officers, as I've said. They should also be spied upon.

Amen.

If these immigrants have to come hear they can at least learn English. Any immigrant should (after taking the citizenship test) be made to integrate into the community. They should have people a bit like probation officers who check up on them and make sure they learn our language and integrate into society. They shouldn't be given a penny until they have proven that they are willing to do this.

Watch as your economy goes into recession, (well, into DEEPER recession) all of sudden due to the lack of the workforce provided by the inmigrants...Because they are not being given a "penny", and because the public budget hits a new high with all the wages of the probation officers, that actually will have to comprise like a third of the native population anyway. So in the end, you will have a country that works only as probation officers for newcomers that come to work. Amazing.

(Expects the "but all inmigrants are unemployed parasits!" argument)

Me? You're the one who wants to import every nutter who wants to come over here and replace it with their backwards shite.

No wonder you come from a country full of fucking Nazis. No goddamn idea, any of you.

Warned. Flaming. Plain and simple. If I'm not mistaken, you've got quite the illustrative history. You've been warned before about this type of conduct. You're on thin ice, and I see hair line cracks in it.

Watch as your economy goes into recession, (well, into DEEPER recession) all of sudden due to the lack of the workforce provided by the inmigrants...Because they are not being given a "penny", and because the public budget hits a new high with all the wages of the probation officers, that actually will have to comprise like a third of the native population anyway. So in the end, you will have a country that works only as probation officers for newcomers that come to work. Amazing.

(Expects the "but all inmigrants are unemployed parasits!" argument)

But all immigrants are unemployed parasites!


I wasn't talking so much about jobs, I was talking about housing, benefits and health care.

But all immigrants are unemployed parasites!


I wasn't talking so much about jobs, I was talking about housing, benefits and health care.

Aren't those benefits directly related to all workers in your country? I mean, in that case, you would be forcing people to work, (and so forth, to pay taxes), without the benefits related to their working effort. In that case, you will, in the end, turn the native population into unemployed parasites living off the effort of inmigrants.

EDIT: I'll correct myself. Not unemployed. Just working as probation officers for said inmigrants. Even more...Challenging.

They shouldn't be given a penny until they have proven that they are willing to do this.

And how the fuck do you expect the immigrant in question to EAT?

***Gets up, makes a "sword cutting" gesture with two fingers***

I am fluent in English. Enough to make a living out of knowing it. Its structure is no mystery to me at all. The vast majority of its vocabulary, I have down pat. It is quite possible that I have more knowledge of it than of which you are even aware. Do you think this knowledge came to me overnight? How exactly? Delivered by a sidhe, maybe? Mmm?

And I find it quite likely that you DID know this. So, no.

No, I say. And I will keep saying:

No.

You don't care about them "learning your language" unless you're assuming they can learn a language in one day, something natives ALSO can't do - language acquisition takes two or three years. Working knowledge, two more. Good skill in it, more, with frequent exposition to the language. I am aware you likely didn't know the scale, but I am equally sure you are not delusional enough to assume a language can be learned in a day, a week or a month.

So, I'm calling you on it.

You don't care about them learning your language or your culture. What you want is to make it impossible in practice for foreigners to enter and stay in your country. Because even if they learned English in their homeland, not only that might be impossible to them, but you would come up with another idiotic requirement. Like, y'know, parole officers. Treating them like criminals. Or setting up concentration camps already, innit?

If you are to speak this kind of nonsense, make its purpose clear. I'm a linguist and a translator. And here you are, essentially claiming they should be given nothing until they "learn your language", as if that could be done between meals? It takes work to learn a language, bucko. Even yours. If you are, however, claiming that they REALLY should get nothing until they learn your language, put your money where your mouth is: Give your kids nothing until they learn English, not even food. If your toddler survives long enough for child protection services to rescue them and lock you up for abuse, tell me how it went.

I am Heikoku. If you don't like it, if you want to take this to a higher authority, there isn't one. It stops with me!

***Sits.***

hair line cracks

Thank you. Learned my expression of the day.

Every thing. I'm not saying they should lose their heritage, just that they should embrace their new home's culture.

With peeps like probation officers, as I've said. They should also be spied upon.

Okay.

Now, Canada has a long cultural history of racism and discrimination against the Natives American peoples living in Canada.

Do you think that immigrants to Canada should also embrace this institutionalised racism?

Aren't those benefits directly related to all workers in your country? I mean, in that case, you would be forcing people to work, (and so forth, to pay taxes), without the benefits related to their working effort. In that case, you will, in the end, turn the native population into unemployed parasites living off the effort of inmigrants.

EDIT: I'll correct myself. Not unemployed. Just working as probation officers for said inmigrants. Even more...Challenging.

Firstly what's an inmigrant?
Immigrants should not even get benefits, nor should they get council houses or free health care. They should be made to work for these things.

Firstly what's an inmigrant?
Immigrants should not even get benefits, nor should they get council houses or free health care. They should be made to work for these things.

Question:

Do you expect, and will even DEMAND, the same treatment should you ever go to another country?

people still use post offices?! :eek2:

*bashes two flints together to make lots of little flints*

Amen.

If these immigrants have to come hear they can at least learn English. Any immigrant should (after taking the citizenship test) be made to integrate into the community. They should have people a bit like probation officers who check up on them and make sure they learn our language and integrate into society. They shouldn't be given a penny until they have proven that they are willing to do this.

What exactly does integrating into our society amount to? What specific action does someone have to take to become integrated, beyond speaking the same language?

What exactly does integrating into our society amount to? What specific action does someone have to take to become integrated, beyond speaking the same language?

The goalposts will be moved, I hope you are aware, the moment one immigrant reaches them.

The goalposts will be moved, I hope you are aware, the moment one immigrant reaches them.

At present I'm having difficulty working out what the goalposts are, never mind where they are going.

At present I'm having difficulty working out what the goalposts are, never mind where they are going.

The goalposts are oddly shaped. They look like a cross, but with one like making one 90o degree angle to the tips of the cross. ;)

Psst: Tip: They are forbidden in Germany.

And how the fuck do you expect the immigrant in question to EAT?

***Gets up, makes a "sword cutting" gesture with two fingers***

I am fluent in English. Enough to make a living out of knowing it. Its structure is no mystery to me at all. The vast majority of its vocabulary, I have down pat. It is quite possible that I have more knowledge of it than of which you are even aware. Do you think this knowledge came to me overnight? How exactly? Delivered by a sidhe, maybe? Mmm?

And I find it quite likely that you DID know this. So, no.

No, I say. And I will keep saying:

No.

You don't care about them "learning your language" unless you're assuming they can learn a language in one day, something natives ALSO can't do - language acquisition takes two or three years. Working knowledge, two more. Good skill in it, more, with frequent exposition to the language. I am aware you likely didn't know the scale, but I am equally sure you are not delusional enough to assume a language can be learned in a day, a week or a month.

So, I'm calling you on it.

You don't care about them learning your language or your culture. What you want is to make it impossible in practice for foreigners to enter and stay in your country. Because even if they learned English in their homeland, not only that might be impossible to them, but you would come up with another idiotic requirement. Like, y'know, parole officers. Treating them like criminals. Or setting up concentration camps already, innit?

If you are to speak this kind of nonsense, make its purpose clear. I'm a linguist and a translator. And here you are, essentially claiming they should be given nothing until they "learn your language", as if that could be done between meals? It takes work to learn a language, bucko. Even yours. If you are, however, claiming that they REALLY should get nothing until they learn your language, put your money where your mouth is: Give your kids nothing until they learn English, not even food. If your toddler survives long enough for child protection services to rescue them and lock you up for abuse, tell me how it went.

I am Heikoku. If you don't like it, if you want to take this to a higher authority, there isn't one. It stops with me!

***Sits.***
Ah man there are plenty of higher powers than you, I'm one of them.
As for the whole not feeding British kids, man that's bullshit. Their British, not immigrants. And I know it takes time to learn, that's why they would have the probation officers, to check they were learning.
Okay.

Now, Canada has a long cultural history of racism and discrimination against the Natives American peoples living in Canada.

Do you think that immigrants to Canada should also embrace this institutionalised racism?
Yes. If it is part of the Canadian way of life. It's like if I went to Saudi Arabia, I would be expected to live by there way, would I not? And if a woman went their she would have to wear one of those head thingys.
Question:

Do you expect, and will even DEMAND, the same treatment should you ever go to another country?
If I go there to stay then yes. But I would never live somewhere were they don't speak English.

Heikoku, help me with my japanese and I will fall in love with you. You already finished the other requeriments.

Firstly what's an inmigrant?
I suspect that he is Spanish, which would mean the word he uses for immigrant is inmigrante.

As for the whole not feeding British kids, man that's bullshit. Their British, not immigrants.

That means NOTHING.

That's right, their nationality means jack shit. "British" means squat. They should get no different treatment due to nationality, an artificial, idiotic concept that does not mean anything.

"British" is worth shit. I spit on "British", "American", "Brazilian" or any other idiotic concept made up to ascribe people rights over other people. They are not worth the paper they're written on, and CERTAINLY not the blood spilled for them.

"British" is worth shit. Screw "British" and any other such words.

Heikoku, help me with my japanese and I will fall in love with you. You already finished the other requeriments.

Well, I'll try to teach you, but I'm only at otaku-level - which is about right before beginner-level. :p

Just so I know, was it the long post in which I got up? :D

...
Yes. If it is part of the Canadian way of life. It's like if I went to Saudi Arabia, I would be expected to live by there way, would I not? And if a woman went their she would have to wear one of those head thingys.
....

You do realise that you are telling people they should be racist?

You do realise that you are telling people they should be racist?

He does, he does not care, moving on, nothing to see here...

I suspect that he is Spanish, which would mean the word he uses for immigrant is inmigrante.

You won a cookie. Nice guess. (The only part you missed is that I'm a "she")

See? Thanks for hightlighting the point at hand. I have been studying and practicing english for years. YEARS. I got really high qualifications in different tests regarding my use of english, and even then, I have this kind of ridiculous mistakes. (Thanks for letting me know, that way I can improve myself)

So even although I have tried hard to master a language, I cannot reach the point or standards of a native. Even then, instead of being cautious about it, FO was chastising me for it, even although I am making a huge effort, instead of helping me or otherwise just correcting me. Is that the standard you want to apply to the "immigrants" in the UK?

So even although I have tried hard to master a language, I cannot reach the point or standards of a native. Even then, instead of being cautious about it, FO was chastising me for it, even although I am making a huge effort, instead of helping me or otherwise just correcting me. Is that the standard you want to apply to the "immigrants" in the UK?

Confia-me, Aelosia, eso no és nada perto del que ellos quieren hacer a inmigrantes. Como se dice "gas chamber" en castellano?

That means NOTHING.

That's right, their nationality means jack shit. "British" means squat. They should get no different treatment due to nationality, an artificial, idiotic concept that does not mean anything.

"British" is worth shit. I spit on "British", "American", "Brazilian" or any other idiotic concept made up to ascribe people rights over other people. They are not worth the paper they're written on, and CERTAINLY not the blood spilled for them.

"British" is worth shit. Screw "British" and any other such words.

Being British means something (and should mean more) in Britain. We have given more to the world than Brazil ever has. Or the US. So being British does mean something.

You won a cookie. Nice guess. (The only part you missed is that I'm a "she")

Todos estamos hombres en la red. O, para alguien, "no tetas, no mujer".

Being British means something (and should mean more) in Britain. We have given more to the world than Brazil ever has. Or the US. So being British does mean something.

What does being British mean? I already challenged you to show me the cultural standards that you think should be required of immigrants and you haven't responded. What are they?

Being British means something (and should mean more) in Britain. We have given more to the world than Brazil ever has. Or the US. So being British does mean something.

No, it doesn't. And the reasons Heathrow Airport exists are named both Wright Brothers and Santos Dumont.

"You" gave the world nothing. Shakespeare did. "We" gave the world nothing. Santos Dumont did. "Americans" gave the world nothing. Benjamin Franklin did.

Being British means jack shit. As does being Brazilian or American or whatever.

Your nationality is as worthless and meaningless as mine.

Deal.

You won a cookie. Nice guess. (The only part you missed is that I'm a "she")

See? Thanks for hightlighting the point at hand. I have been studying and practicing english for years. YEARS. I got really high qualifications in different tests regarding my use of english, and even then, I have this kind of ridiculous mistakes. (Thanks for letting me know, that way I can improve myself)

So even although I have tried hard to master a language, I cannot reach the point or standards of a native. Even then, instead of being cautious about it, FO was chastising me for it, even although I am making a huge effort, instead of helping me or otherwise just correcting me. Is that the standard you want to apply to the "immigrants" in the UK?

No, immigrants shouldn't have to speak it perfectly. I can't speak it perfictly ( and I sertainly can't write it perfectly). They should have to be able to speak it to a standard were they can use it in every day life.

What does being British mean? I already challenged you to show me the cultural standards that you think should be required of immigrants and you haven't responded. What are they?

Right now? Tea, Monty Python and the Beatles.

Being Brazilian means samba, cheap beer, and Giselle Bündchen.

No, immigrants shouldn't have to speak it perfectly. I can't speak it perfictly ( and I sertainly can't write it perfectly). They should have to be able to speak it to a standard were they can use it in every day life.

"have to"? by what standard? by what rule?

I mean there's certainly some level of practicality here, if you can't speak a language you might find it difficult to get by in every day life, but we should FORCE them to learn?

Being British means something (and should mean more) in Britain. We have given more to the world than Brazil ever has. Or the US. So being British does mean something.

I hate to tell ya something, but YOU haven't given the world shit.

Right now? Tea, Monty Python and the Beatles.

Being Brazilian means samba, cheap beer, and Giselle Bündchen.

No fair. How about a trade?

No, it doesn't. And the reasons Heathrow Airport exists are named both Wright Brothers and Santos Dumont.

"You" gave the world nothing. Shakespeare did. "We" gave the world nothing. Santos Dumont did. "Americans" gave the world nothing. Benjamin Franklin did.

Being British means jack shit. As does being Brazilian or American or whatever.

Your nationality is as worthless and meaningless as mine.

Deal.

Okay then. The British people have given more to the world then you lot.

And my nationality is nowhere near as meaningless as yours.

I can't speak it perfictly ( and I sertainly can't write it perfectly).
Oh Isengard, its bad when I wonder if you do things on purpose or if its all just a big joke.

Heikoku, I'm going to disagree with you on nationalities. Being American (or British, or Brazilian) does mean something, which is why we attach such a significance to it. It is a common heritage, or a common ideal, or set of ideals, which we espouse. And no, I can't name what it means to be an American, but if you asked me I'd say sure, that fits or no, that doesn't fit. And I'm not even saying that every American agrees, but every American has an idea of what it means to be an American to them. So its a set of personal beliefs that combine to form a collective belief.

I hate to tell ya something, but YOU haven't given the world shit.

Already sorta hammered that point home, knight, but feel free. ;)

(Hope you're not annoyed, but I do picture you like one when you're arguing. You fight clean.) :p

And my nationality is nowhere near as meaningless as yours.

it's funny that you think nationality is anything BUT meaningless.

Being British means something (and should mean more) in Britain. We have given more to the world than Brazil ever has. Or the US. So being British does mean something.

I tell you what being British means.

It means we were born in Great Britain. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect special treatment because of the nation you were born in.

Okay then. The British people have given more to the world then you lot.

And my nationality is nowhere near as meaningless as yours.

Your nationality is exactly as meaningless as mine.

And feel free to ask your former colonies how much they liked being ruled by a bloodthirsty empire. America, for instance, liked it so much they beat the shit out of oh-so-mighty Britain to get them the hell out of there.

It means squat.

I tell you what being British means.

It means we were born in Great Britain. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect special treatment because of the nation you were born in.

The UK surely

Heikoku, I'm going to disagree with you on nationalities. Being American (or British, or Brazilian) does mean something, which is why we attach such a significance to it. It is a common heritage, or a common ideal, or set of ideals, which we espouse. And no, I can't name what it means to be an American, but if you asked me I'd say sure, that fits or no, that doesn't fit. And I'm not even saying that every American agrees, but every American has an idea of what it means to be an American to them. So its a set of personal beliefs that combine to form a collective belief.

Still not reason to give people rights over one another.

Okay then. The British people have given more to the world then you lot.

And my nationality is nowhere near as meaningless as yours.

What have you done to contribute to British greatness?

Nationalism is hard to distinguish from racism.

The UK surely

UKian? The UK and Great Britain are 2 different things.

Great Britain refers to the island of Britain and the 3 nations Scotland, England and Wales.

The UK refers to the 3 nations mentioned and Northern Ireland.

I suppose they are interchangeable in a way. Doesn't mean being British or Irish or whatever is more meaningful than any other nationality.

Nationalism is hard to distinguish from racism.

Oh, not at all, see, one is about race, the other is about origin.

The UK surely
It is the UK of GB and NI
Your nationality is exactly as meaningless as mine.

And feel free to ask your former colonies how much they liked being ruled by a bloodthirsty empire. America, for instance, liked it so much they beat the shit out of oh-so-mighty Britain to get them the hell out of there.

It means squat.
And how did the Brazilians like having the "blood thirsty" Portuguese kicking the shit out of them.
I tell you what being British means.

It means we were born in Great Britain. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect special treatment because of the nation you were born in.
I would in my own country. I expect to be treated better than immigrants.

And I know it takes time to learn, that's why they would have the probation officers, to check they were learning.

And if a woman went their she would have to wear one of those head thingys.

If I go there to stay then yes. But I would never live somewhere were they don't speak English.

The probation officers have noted that you have not met the required standards for English, therefore you must be deported. ;)

Confia-me, Aelosia, eso no és nada perto del que ellos quieren hacer a inmigrantes. Como se dice "gas chamber" en castellano?

Cámara de Gas.

And yes, it has relation to your post

UKian? The UK and Great Britain are 2 different things.


Aye that was my point. British refers to those born within the UK not just those born within Great Britain. Just a slight nitpick :p

Edit : And also why Team GB is fucking annoying

I would in my own country. I expect to be treated better than immigrants.


Nationalism is hard to distinguish from racism.

And sometimes, they're one and the same.

I hate to tell ya something, but YOU haven't given the world shit.

Already sorta hammered that point home, knight, but feel free. ;)

(Hope you're not annoyed, but I do picture you like one when you're arguing. You fight clean.) :p

Oh? And what have you two done for your respective countries?

And how did the Brazilians like having the "blood thirsty" Portuguese kicking the shit out of them.

1- So, you're trying to retort something about your country with something about the Portuguese. I being Brazilian, not Portuguese. Splendid. Must be that British humor I hear about.

2- We didn't "kick the shit out of them", really. Something of which you might have been aware if you knew anything about our history. Brazil didn't need to. We got free that easily.

Oh? And what have you two done for your respective countries?

Nothing. But I'm not claiming it's great per se only by virtue of my being born in it. You are.

Oh? And what have you two done for your respective countries?

what have I done in the grand scheme to advance America?

Not much. But then again, I don't claim to, do I?

It is the UK of GB and NI

And how did the Brazilians like having the "blood thirsty" Portuguese kicking the shit out of them.

I would in my own country. I expect to be treated better than immigrants.

Why? Are they any less of a person than you? What makes you think you're so much better than an immigrant?

I'm never going to see eye to eye with you because this sort of attitude almost got my father killed who is a 1st generation Indian immigrant to England. Do you actually believe that immigrants come here and feed off the system?

Tell my father he does that or my nan or any number of acquantinces I have who I know are 1st generation. My own father first worked for 20 hour days just to make sure there was enough money to survive on.

What makes you so great that you think you can get a free pass while immigrants must be spied upon, meet probabtion officers and such. What do you do that makes you special?

1- So, you're trying to retort something about your country with something about the Portuguese. I being Brazilian, not Portuguese. Splendid.

2- We didn't "kick the shit out of them", really. Something of which you might have been aware if you knew anything about our history. Brazil didn't need to. We got free that easily.

Think you got the wrong end of the stick. I know your Brazilian, I was stating that the Portuguese kicked the shit out of you and you were such pussies you did nothing about it.

It is the UK of GB and NI


I don't think you understood me. My fault for being vague

What do you do that makes you special?

He was born there. Patriotism is thinking your country is great by virtue of you being born in it.

Think you got the wrong end of the stick. I know your Brazilian, I was stating that the Portuguese kicked the shit out of you and you were such pussies you did nothing about it.

Wow. Do you need a Wikipedia link about Brazilian history so you can stop embarassing yourself?

what have I done in the grand scheme to advance America?

Not much. But then again, I don't claim to, do I?
Nor do I. I merely claim that the country I was born in is (and was) great. Much better than any new world country any way.

Wow. Do you need a Wikipedia link about Brazilian history so you can stop embarassing yourself?

WHAT!? You got the wrong end of the stick, I never changed my point. The Portuguese kicked your ass and you lot did nothing.

Nor do I. I merely claim that the country I was born in is (and was) great. Much better than any new world country any way.

It isn't.

What makes you so great that you think you can get a free pass while immigrants must be spied upon, meet probabtion officers and such. What do you do that makes you special?

Because this is my country. I was born here, so I should come before immigrants.

I think I realized the issue with our little friend here:

I go to a grammar school

It isn't.

What makes you think it isn't? What makes you think that Brazil or the US is any better?

...

Yes. If it is part of the Canadian way of life. It's like if I went to Saudi Arabia, I would be expected to live by there way, would I not? And if a woman went their she would have to wear one of those head thingys.

....

Do you also think that immigrants to Palestine should support suicide bombings, immigrants to Sierra Leone should circumcise their daughters, and immigrants to the Colombian highlands should engage in cocaine production?

WHAT!? You got the wrong end of the stick, I never changed my point. The Portuguese kicked your ass and you lot did nothing.

*Sighs*

Can't say I wasn't merciful.

There was no conflict between Brazil as a colony and Portugal. Napoleon shooed the Portuguese court to here, resulting in Brazil itself becoming the metropolis. After that, Brazil got independent with no blood or war, by political dealings alone.

No one kicked anyone's ass.

What makes you think that Brazil or the US is any better?

I don't.

But we Brazilians have bigger penises in average than UKers. :p

I think I realized the issue with our little friend here:

WTF does that have to do with anything? At least we have a half descent education system over here.

Because this is my country. I was born here, so I should come before immigrants.

No you shouldn't.

Because this is my country. I was born here, so I should come before immigrants.

I was also born here. Doesn't mean I believe the country should care more about me than my own father or grandparents. What you seem to believe in is some sort of ranking system of citizens, which doesn't fly. You know, this nation being one of equal opportunities regardless of ethnicity, background, religion, gender, sexual orientation or whatever.

What you're suggesting is taking away someone's liberty until they prove they are allowed to have it or meet a certain term. In it's basic form, you are advocating that immigrants should be treated like criminals or prisoners.

WTF does that have to do with anything? At least we have a half descent education system over here.

Why why why would you set yourself up for the inevitable critique of your spelling, etc

WTF does that have to do with anything?

That age of majority laws exist for a reason.

WTF does that have to do with anything? At least we have a half descent education system over here.

But not a half decent one, it seems.

Anyway, I would like you to explicate on this. Please explain why Britain is so much greater than any of the `New World' (such a meaningless term) countries. Come on, we'd like to see some proof.

wtf does that have to do with anything? At least we have a half descent education system over here.

hahaahahahahahahahahahhaha
haahahahahahahaahahahahaahahahahahahaha
haaahahaahahhahhhahhahahahahahahahaahahaha
hahahaahahahahahaahahahaahahahaahahahahahaahah
HAHAHAH

Think you got the wrong end of the stick. I know your Brazilian, I was stating that the Portuguese kicked the shit out of you and you were such pussies you did nothing about it.

Really? Was that not necessary? The yellow-card I hold here says no.

I really should have a macro that plays out the "attack the post not the poster" mantra.

Do you also think that immigrants to Palestine should support suicide bombings, immigrants to Sierra Leone should circumcise their daughters, and immigrants to the Colombian highlands should engage in cocaine production?
Come now. Not every Palistinian's a suicide bomber. That's a terrible sweeping generalization. Like if I said every American's fat.
*Sighs*

Can't say I wasn't merciful.

There was no conflict between Brazil as a colony and Portugal. Napoleon shooed the Portuguese court to here, resulting in Brazil itself becoming the metropolis. After that, Brazil got independent with no blood or war, by political dealings alone.

No one kicked anyone's ass.
Excuses excuses. This just makes you look worse, not only were you a colony, but you were colonized by a bunch of pussies.
I don't.

But we Brazilians have bigger penises in average than UKers. :p
Wishful thinking never got anyone anywhere.
No you shouldn't.
Yes I should.
I was also born here. Doesn't mean I believe the country should care more about me than my own father or grandparents. What you seem to believe in is some sort of ranking system of citizens, which doesn't fly. You know, this nation being one of equal opportunities regardless of ethnicity, background, religion, gender, sexual orientation or whatever.

What you're suggesting is taking away someone's liberty until they prove they are allowed to have it or meet a certain term. In it's basic form, you are advocating that immigrants should be treated like criminals or prisoners.
You should be treated better than your parents, but not better than someone who's ancestry is British.
Why why why would you set yourself up for the inevitable critique of your spelling, etc
Dyslexic.

Come now. Not every Palistinian's a suicide bomber. That's a terrible sweeping generalization. Like if I said every American's fat.....

I didn't say you should be a suicide bomber, just that you should support suicide bombings, which enough Palestinians do that it could be considered cultural.

The point is that if the culture you're moving to does bad things, should you do these things too?

Excuses excuses. This just makes you look worse, not only were you a colony, but you were colonized by a bunch of pussies.

1- Not really an "excuse". You claimed we got our asses kicked. I pointed out there was no battle.

2- That part you can go take it with the Portuguese. Who were your allies at that time, so, it also goes to show that England failed even at the very basic task of protecting an important ally.

Kyozerkia, if you can rescind the yellow card, I'm not feeling offended yet, just highly entertained. :D

Because this is my country. I was born here, so I should come before immigrants.

Ah, I think we've found the problem.

You somehow believe that which side of the line in the sand you were born on should be important in your life. Allow me to let you in on a little secret kiddo - it isn't. National borders, nationhood, patriotism? All of them have a simple purpose - keeping you, a human being and nothing more (or less) divided from them, also human beings and nothing more (and definitely nothing less).

There is no `black' or `white'; no `patriotic' or `traitorous'; no `Christian' or `Muslim' or `atheist'; no `American', `British', `Tibetan', `Pakistani', or `Chilean'. We are all human, nothing more.

Borders only have power and meaning because people let them. They have no intrinsic value. Why, in the name of all that is good, should parts of the world `belong' to arbitrary groups of people, based on nothing more than accidents of birth and long ago battles? Letting go of the silly idea of nations and borders, recognising them for the false divisions that they are, would bring incalculable progress to humanity.

But not a half decent one, it seems.

Anyway, I would like you to explicate on this. Please explain why Britain is so much greater than any of the `New World' (such a meaningless term) countries. Come on, we'd like to see some proof.
European Countries have far more culture and history than the new world. And we colonized the fuck out of it- thus proving that we are superior.
You use the British education system free of charge, so I would not criticize it so readily next time.
Really? Was that not necessary? The yellow-card I hold here says no.

I really should have a macro that plays out the "attack the post not the poster" mantra.
Sozzles, but to be fair I wasn't attacking the poster- I was merely stating that the Brazilian people did nothing when they were invaded

Ah, I think we've found the problem.

You somehow believe that which side of the line in the sand you were born on should be important in your life. Allow me to let you in on a little secret kiddo - it isn't. National borders, nationhood, patriotism? All of them have a simple purpose - keeping you, a human being and nothing more (or less) divided from them, also human beings and nothing more (and definitely nothing less).

There is no `black' or `white'; no `patriotic' or `traitorous'; no `Christian' or `Muslim' or `atheist'; no `American', `British', `Tibetan', `Pakistani', or `Chilean'. We are all human, nothing more.

Borders only have power and meaning because people let them. They have no intrinsic value. Why, in the name of all that is good, should parts of the world `belong' to arbitrary groups of people, based on nothing more than accidents of birth and long ago battles? Letting go of the silly idea of nations and borders, recognising them for the false divisions that they are, would bring incalculable progress to humanity.

So now there are no White or Black people? what world are you living in?

ehh, arguing with children is never fun. It's not even like beating up the retarded. Even a retarded person knows when he got beat up.

it's more like beating on a punching bag. You can hit it all you want, and it just plain won't notice.

Still not reason to give people rights over one another.

Is that what we're arguing?

European Countries have far more culture and history than the new world. And we colonized the fuck out of it- thus proving that we are superior.
You use the British education system free of charge, so I would not criticize it so readily next time.

You do realize that "having more culture" makes absolutely no sense, right? Culture is a concept, particularly pertaining to the beliefs and practices of a given society. "Culture" has no weight, nor any system to measure its intrinsic value in such a way. So, what the Anthropology student is telling you is that you make no sense. Whatsoever.


Sozzles, but to be fair I wasn't attacking the poster- I was merely stating that the Brazilian people did nothing when they were invaded

Because they weren't invaded?

Unless you are talking about when they were colonized, in which case the Native populace probably was far more widespread, without a cohesive political structure over the entire country. Probably, I'm not sure.

Because they weren't invaded?

Unless you are talking about when they were colonized, in which case the Native populace probably was far more widespread, without a cohesive political structure over the entire country. Probably, I'm not sure.

Exactly.

You do realize that "having more culture" makes absolutely no sense, right? C

No, I don't think he does. I get the impression he thinks "culture" is some sort of video game. Every brown person you enslave, murder, or subjugate gets you culture points.

The one with the most, wins.

I didn't say you should be a suicide bomber, just that you should support suicide bombings, which enough Palestinians do that it could be considered cultural.

The point is that if the culture you're moving to does bad things, should you do these things too?
If the society is doing bad things that you don't agree with- then don't move there- simple.
1- Not really an "excuse". You claimed we got our asses kicked. I pointed out there was no battle.

2- That part you can go take it with the Portuguese. Who were your allies at that time, so, it also goes to show that England failed even at the very basic task of protecting an important ally.

Kyozerkia, if you can rescind the yellow card, I'm not feeling offended yet, just highly entertained. :D

Why should we protect our allies? It was not our fault they couldn't fight

And we colonized the fuck out of it- thus proving that we are superior.

No it doesn't, and no you're not.

Do you want to argue superiority with ME, kid?

I AM A GOD!

So now there are no White or Black people? what world are you living in?

"Black" and "White", or more correctly ethnicity in general, are cultural ideas that have very little bearing biologically or morphologically. In truth, there is very little difference, genetically, between you and a black person. Only subtle variations that count for nothing more than superficial appearance(Well, there are reasons for these difference, but they do not profoundly affect people of different races).

Why should we protect our allies?

Because without Portugal, your fight against France was that much more difficult.

Really? Was that not necessary? The yellow-card I hold here says no.

I really should have a macro that plays out the "attack the post not the poster" mantra.

http://i731.photobucket.com/albums/ww316/ty8131990/BAND.jpg?t=1237488148


European Countries have far more culture and history than the new world. And we colonized the fuck out of it- thus proving that we are superior.
You use the British education system free of charge, so I would not criticize it so readily next time.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA

Seriously, you would be more suited to circle jerk with these guys (http://www.stormfront.org).



Sozzles, but to be fair I wasn't attacking the poster- I was merely stating that the Brazilian people did nothing when they were invaded

You were just arguing that Brazilian people = Brazilians.

Why should we protect our allies? It was not our fault they couldn't fight

Shit man, if everybody thought that way there would be no such thing as allies.

ehh, arguing with children is never fun. It's not even like beating up the retarded. Even a retarded person knows when he got beat up.

it's more like beating on a punching bag. You can hit it all you want, and it just plain won't notice.
The punch bag will not notice if the punches you land are patheticly weak.
No it doesn't, and no you're not.

Do you want to argue superiority with ME, kid?

I AM A GOD!
Wishful thinking again?
P.S I'm not a baby goat thank you very much.
Because without Portugal, your fight against France was that much more difficult.
Um, who one? I do believe that we one.

I'm not a baby goat thank you very much.

So far that's the only thing you said in this thread that's remotely true.

Come now. Not every Palistinian's a suicide bomber. That's a terrible sweeping generalization. Like if I said every American's fat.

Excuses excuses. This just makes you look worse, not only were you a colony, but you were colonized by a bunch of pussies.

Wishful thinking never got anyone anywhere.

Yes I should.

You should be treated better than your parents, but not better than someone who's ancestry is British.

Dyslexic.

Whoa whoa whoa!

You're saying I should be a 2nd class citizen to someone like you? And my grandparents 3rd class citizens?

Excuse me but I think you have some serious growing up to do or something. Ethnicity is not something to base a hierarchy on.

I'm sorry but with your outdated opinions I don't think I can have any respect for your views. However I'll still respect you as a person and not call for you to be a 2nd class citizen.

Why do you think you're better than me, because you have British ancestry? We're living in the present kid and ancestry doesn't mean squat.

Whoa whoa whoa!

You're saying I should be a 2nd class citizen to someone like you? And my grandparents 3rd class citizens?

Excuse me but I think you have some serious growing up to do or something. Ethnicity is not something to base a hierarchy on.

I'm sorry but with your outdated opinions I don't think I can have any respect for your views. However I'll still respect you as a person and not call for you to be a 2nd class citizen.

Why do you think you're better than me, because you have British ancestry? We're living in the present kid and ancestry doesn't mean squat.

Ancestry only means squat if you've got shit ancestry.

I don't think I'm better than you because of my ancestry, I think that I should have priority over you in my own country.

Ancestry only means squat if you've got shit ancestry.

I don't think I'm better than you because of my ancestry, I think that I should have priority over you in my own country.

Considering I was born here and raised here and am a British citizen, you're argument falls flat on its face. My father is now a British citizen, my grandparents, British citizens. Just because my family are ethnically Indian and were immigrants doesn't mean anything as they are British citizens.


So tell me again. Why the hell do you think you should be put on a higher priority than someone who comes to this country to work and raise a family?

Ancestry only means squat if you've got shit ancestry.

I don't think I'm better than you because of my ancestry, I think that I should have priority over you in my own country.

The Nazis thought so too.

There, I said it. It's only Godwin if it's irrelevant, and it isn't.

I'll repeat: The Nazis thought so too.

Ancestry only means squat if you've got shit ancestry.
What, pray, counts as shit ancestry? Celtic? Jewish? African? Slavic? Or are we just going to go the whole hog and say anything that's not WASP?

I don't think I'm better than you because of my ancestry, I think that I should have priority over you in my own country.

Location: Kent
Location: That place they call England

363 replies. Impressive!

Ancestry only means squat if you've got shit ancestry.

I don't think I'm better than you because of my ancestry, I think that I should have priority over you in my own country.

What have you done to deserve that priority? You are not your ancestors, no matter how hard you try to argue it.

363 replies. Impressive!

365 replies. Impressive!

and 2,770+ views. There's one really good way to get your shit read, and that's to troll the hell out of NSG. Of course, mostly it's being read by Heikoku. But you get what you pay for, you know.

It takes a very minimum amount of effort to chunk out one- or two-sentence replies that nudge the cycle onward, compared to the large amounts of effort going into "debating" said nudges as if they were actual arguments. Amusing game sometimes, but it always gets old.

What, pray, counts as shit ancestry? Celtic? Jewish? African? Slavic? Or are we just going to go the whole hog and say anything that's not WASP?
A) I'm not a protestant
b) Being white has nothing todo with it. It is only the Anglo-Saxon that matters.
The Nazis thought so too.

There, I said it. It's only Godwin if it's irrelevant, and it isn't.

I'll repeat: The Nazis thought so too.
Back to comparing me to Hitler eh?
The Nazi's to be fair did prove that the Germans were a great people- I mean to occupy Europe for 5 years is pretty impressive.
Considering I was born here and raised here and am a British citizen, you're argument falls flat on its face. My father is now a British citizen, my grandparents, British citizens. Just because my family are ethnically Indian and were immigrants doesn't mean anything as they are British citizens.


So tell me again. Why the hell do you think you should be put on a higher priority than someone who comes to this country to work and raise a family?
Passing a test doesn't make you British. I should "be put on a higher priority than someone who comes to this country to work and raise a family- because I'm British and Guess what- this is Britain.

No it doesn't, and no you're not.

Do you want to argue superiority with ME, kid?

I AM A GOD!

You know what came to my mind when I read that?

I am a man!

*punches*

That's from Linkara's review of Superman At Earth's End.

Back to comparing me to Hitler eh?
The Nazi's to be fair did prove that the Germans were a great people- I mean to occupy Europe for 5 years is pretty impressive.

1- The Nazis thought so too. I'm not comparing you to Hitler, you're THINKING LIKE HIM.

2- The greatness of a people is not measured by their ability to hurt and murder their way into controlling territory.

A) I'm not a protestant
b) Being white has nothing todo with it. It is only the Anglo-Saxon that matters.

Back to comparing me to Hitler eh?
The Nazi's to be fair did prove that the Germans were a great people- I mean to occupy Europe for 5 years is pretty impressive.

Passing a test doesn't make you British. I should "be put on a higher priority than someone who comes to this country to work and raise a family- because I'm British and Guess what- this is Britain.

And? These people pay the same taxes, live in the same country and obey the same laws. A piece of paper is exactly what has made you a British citizen. It can be revoked, though incredibly rarely, through treason and such. Me and my parents are just as British as you.

My parents are proud to be British citizens as am I but we don't act like an ass about it.

A) I'm not a protestant
You know what I mean.

b) Being white has nothing todo with it. It is only the Anglo-Saxon that matters.
So everybody in this country has shit ancestry then. Including you.

I hate the concept of Britishness with a passion. I do think that if you go to a country, you should be able to speak the native language a bit, but refusing to serve customers seems odd. Although, I'm surprised he hasn't been assualted with racism charges. Police force exclusive, I s'pose.

And? These people pay the same taxes, live in the same country and obey the same laws. A piece of paper is exactly what has made you a British citizen. It can be revoked, though incredibly rarely, through treason and such. Me and my parents are just as British as you.

My parents are proud to be British citizens as am I but we don't act like an ass about it.

Well mine would never be revoked then as I would not commit High Treason. I love the Monarchy.

And it is not just a bit of paper that makes you British. And I'll doubt you'll find illegals who pay taxes or obey the same laws I do.

If the society is doing bad things that you don't agree with- then don't move there- simple.

....

What about child refugees? They have no choice as to where they go. Should they be forced to assimilate the negative practices of the host country?

You know what I mean.


So everybody in this country has shit ancestry then. Including you.

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?

What about child refugees? They have no choice as to where they go. Should they be forced to assimilate the negative practices of the host country?

They've got to do what they've got to do to survive

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?

That makes me want to ask another question. Do you think all the people should have to assimilate the bad things of their society, or just immigrants?

They've got to do what they've got to do to survive

Okay, so you've advocated for institutionalised racism, and now you're advocating teaching this racism to children.

Just so we're clear.

What if the scoiety advocates racism against people from the UK?

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?

And what is your precious ancestry, then?

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?

Nobody in the UK (or anywhere) is just from one racial group/tribe, by your own opinion that means that you have shit ancestry.

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?

Well, in the long run we're descended from bacteria that thrived in the mud. So, you have shit ancestry, I have shit ancestry and everyone else has shit ancestry.

I cant believe I just read all 26 pages of this thread. I need an advil.

Nobody in the UK (or anywhere) is just from one racial group/tribe, by your own opinion that means that you have shit ancestry.
At what point did I say that belonging to more than one group of people means that you have shit ancestry?
Well, in the long run we're descended from bacteria that thrived in the mud. So, you have shit ancestry, I have shit ancestry and everyone else has shit ancestry.
I thought you were a god, did god come from bacteria in the mud. In fact if there really is a god you just destroyed your own argument.

I thought you were a god, did god come from bacteria in the mud. In fact if there really is a god you just destroyed your own argument.

That's because, as is becoming quite usual, you missed the point of what I posted.

I thought you were a god, did god come from bacteria in the mud. In fact if there really is a god you just destroyed your own argument.

Is it possible for God to destroy His own argument? Can He make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it? Alas, these are mere theological musings, destined to have no true answer. Let's talk more about your ideas of racial-national identity!

Ring of Isengard can you tell us when you plan to learn English?

Ring of Isengard can you tell us when you plan to learn English?

/thread.

You also win a series of tubes.

b) Being white has nothing todo with it. It is only the Anglo-Saxon that matters.

At what point did I say that belonging to more than one group of people means that you have shit ancestry?

Suggestive at least.

No, I don't think he does. I get the impression he thinks "culture" is some sort of video game. Every brown person you enslave, murder, or subjugate gets you culture points.

The one with the most, wins.

That's how it works in Civ 4.

Ring of Isengard can you tell us when you plan to learn English?

I don't think we should feed him till then! :D

Why should we protect our allies? It was not our fault they couldn't fight

Thats funny coming from an Englishman. Maybe my country should have just left you to the Nazis with that attitude. We shouldnt given you supplies during WWI or WWII either. I mean, its not our fault you couldnt fight.


All you regulars know I love the British and would never make the "Oh yeah, well WWII WE SAVED YOU!" arguement. But seriously. I mean, come on.

Ring of Isengard, I don't know how to ask this nicer, but are you retarded?

WHAT'S THE POINT OF AN ALLIANCE IF YOU AREN'T GONNA HELP THEM?

Go play some Civ 4. Just don't complain if 50 nations ally and storm you (not in the game though, a pity) while you scream why your allies never helped you -- I mean, if you can't fight, why would they help you? You can't even hold off those 50 "pussie" nations storming you!

Does it even matter they are your allies?

DISCLAIMER: this is NOT supposed to be an ANALOGY, I don't know anything about Brazillian history so I'm not trying to make an analogy to that. (I'm not arrogant to speak what I don't know nothing about)

That's how it works in Civ 4.

But also in Civ 3, and Civ 3 sucked.

I thought you were a god, did god come from bacteria in the mud. In fact if there really is a god you just destroyed your own argument.

NO U

Why should we protect our allies? It was not our fault they couldn't fight
I'd like to think that, if not out of morality or honor, at the very least you could use them as a giant, country flavored meat shield.

Okay, I have a question, Isengard. Would a British uber-dissenter that chose to speak in a second language, still be a first-class citizen, just for being British :mad:?

No you didn't. You sailed around the world, finding inferior cultures, and then shot at them until they submitted.

You said you're of Ukrainian descent, right? The Ukrainians in the Kievan Rus' did the same thing, except to each other. Made them oh-so-easy targets for the Mongols.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21164506-2,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24994054-2702,00.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,25105398-421,00.html?from=communities

News Corporation sources, I see. Got any sources not run by Rupert Murdoch?

What makes you think I've got shit ancestry?
Let's do this step by step, shall we?

Firstly - you established the importance of not having 'shit' ancestry.
Secondly - when asked to define shit ancestry, you emphasised the importance of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, to the exclusion of several others, including Celtic.
Thirdly - given that the British Isles has had several centuries of interbreeding between the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic genepools, it is unlikely, bordering on impossible, that anybody has pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry.

As such, by your definitions here, you have shit ancestry.

It would be nice if, at this point, you had a relavation and realised that race really is in the same region of importance as improving the taste of vaseline, the variations in the heights of chairs and my belly button fluff, but I'm not holding my breath.

Ring of Isengard can you tell us when you plan to learn English?

The chap has said repeatedly that he's dyslexic.

Post, not poster.

The chap has said repeatedly that he's dyslexic.

He can say it all he wants, Im still not buying it. Besides, Smunkee's comment is very relevent. When our mighty race warrior here is going on and on about the importance of learning english, yet cant even spell it properly, it is a fair observation to make.

given that the British Isles has had several centuries of interbreeding between the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic genepools, it is unlikely, bordering on impossible, that anybody has pure Anglo-Saxon ancestry.


Even then if you consider the Angles, the Saxons, and the Jutes, there really isn't a pure ancestry.

Your nationality is exactly as meaningless as mine.

And feel free to ask your former colonies how much they liked being ruled by a bloodthirsty empire. America, for instance, liked it so much they beat the shit out of oh-so-mighty Britain to get them the hell out of there.

It means squat.

We got a lot of help from another bloodthirsty empire and some help from a part of a third, dying empire in order to cast off the first bloodthirsty empire in the discussion. Weird how history turns out, isn't it?

The probation officers have noted that you have not met the required standards for English, therefore you must be deported. ;)

Good one! Can we say you pwned Isengard? Oh, by the way, I'm from the Department of Immigration. Time to say so long! :p

He can say it all he wants, Im still not buying it. Besides, Smunkee's comment is very relevent. When our mighty race warrior here is going on and on about the importance of learning english, yet cant even spell it properly, it is a fair observation to make.

Not really.

Would you discount the opinions of a paraplegic on athletics because he can't run very fast?

Racism and idiocy, even perpetrated by an immigrant who is himself a minority is...shockingly....still not okay.

Not even you can be that stupid. Seriously.

The fact that a man refuses to serve a customer who does not speak the language of the country (England in this case - not Wales, Scotland, Germany or Paraguay) does not make him a racist. Where is the discrimination on the basis of race? He would refuse to serve anyone, of ANY ethnic origin, who didn't speak the local language.

He may be bigoted, and full of himself, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he is being racist.

Now - that aside, as a first generation immigrant myself, who moved to a country where I did not speak the language when I arrived, I can see both sides of the issue very well. If all that this guy wants is that his potential customers at least try to use English - no matter how badly they fail or otherwise, then I can sympathise with his position. If, however, he wants his clients to use good quality English, then he has no leg to stand on. Most natives of England do not, and can not use English at all well.

Not really.

Would you discount the opinions of a paraplegic on athletics because he can't run very fast?
No, because your example isnt really whats going on and misses whats amusing.

If a paraplegic said "Everyone, no matter what, should be able to run fast!" Id raise an eyebrow at him.

Not really.

Would you discount the opinions of a paraplegic on athletics because he can't run very fast?

On matters of everyone should run faster or go home, yeah. I understand that some people are dyslexic, but it's an internet excuse now for not knowing the difference between hear/here, their/they're, your/you're, etc. In the same way you don't get to flame people and claim it's because you have aspergers you probably shouldn't bitch about immigrants not learning English fluently in a matter of months when you've had your whole life to learn it both by immersion and free education and you can't figure out grammar, spelling, or usage.

Considering I was born here and raised here and am a British citizen, you're argument falls flat on its face. My father is now a British citizen, my grandparents, British citizens. Just because my family are ethnically Indian and were immigrants doesn't mean anything as they are British citizens.


So tell me again. Why the hell do you think you should be put on a higher priority than someone who comes to this country to work and raise a family?

On top of that, if I read correctly, I, being of at least 40% British Isles ancestry, yet separated from my nearest British-born ancestor by 7 generations (I'm a US citizen), should be treated better than you (which I hold as complete bollocks).

I'm not sure why there is so much hostility directed against this shopkeeper. Could it be that maybe it's just not convenient for him to speak his old language, or some other secondary language he may not know? Having run a store once, I know how frustrating it can be to talk to someone who only knows French for example. Even though I took three years of it.

Here, you can all laugh at me for a second. I asked the French Canadian guy to slow down his speech so I could pick out words better and he said "retard" and I got all offended.

Much later I realized he said that because retard is French for slow.

I'm not sure why there is so much hostility directed against this shopkeeper. Could it be that maybe it's just not convenient for him to speak his old language, or some other secondary language he may not know? Having run a store once, I know how frustrating it can be to talk to someone who only knows French for example. Even though I took three years of it.

Here, you can all laugh at me for a second. I asked the French Canadian guy to slow down his speech so I could pick out words better and he said "retard" and I got all offended.

Much later I realized he said that because retard is French for slow.

Gotta love those false friend words.

Not even you can be that stupid. Seriously. 'Not even you'? Gee thanks, glad to see you have such a high opinion of me, asshat.

The fact that a man refuses to serve a customer who does not speak the language of the country (England in this case - not Wales, Scotland, Germany or Paraguay) does not make him a racist. Where is the discrimination on the basis of race? He would refuse to serve anyone, of ANY ethnic origin, who didn't speak the local language. Right. Are there going to be white folks of English ethnicity who aren't going to be able to speak English? Unlikely. It's going to be white or brown folks of other ethnicities. Racism includes discrimination based on ethnicity (you know, for the people who don't really buy into race but who still want to discriminate against others)

He may be bigoted, and full of himself, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he is being racist. Oh, okay, let's totally spare him the horribly underved label of racist, and just call him a bigot. Wow, that sure made a difference, didn't it?

'Not even you'? Gee thanks, glad to see you have such a high opinion of me, asshat.
The same opinion as ever - You're welcome ;)
Right. Are there going to be white folks of English ethnicity who aren't going to be able to speak English? Unlikely. It's going to be white or brown folks of other ethnicities. Racism includes discrimination based on ethnicity (you know, for the people who don't really buy into race but who still want to discriminate against others)

Let's see now - what people of white Caucasian ethnicity exist that might not speak English - (English being almost a nationality and a language as opposed to an ethnicity - as I am sure you are fully aware) -well there are the French, Italian, Belgian, Polish, Spanish, Portuguese, Austrian, Czech, Slovakian, Ukranian, Romanian, Hungarian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Bielorussian - shall I go on?

I have left out the Dutch, Germans, Swedish, Finn, Icelandic, Norwegian etc. as they are likely to speak better English that the English.

Oh, okay, let's totally spare him the horribly underved label of racist, and just call him a bigot. Wow, that sure made a difference, didn't it?
You were way too quick to label him a racist - there is no evidence for this whatsoever - but then why should that stop you?

I'm not sure why there is so much hostility directed against this shopkeeper. Could it be that maybe it's just not convenient for him to speak his old language, or some other secondary language he may not know? Having run a store once, I know how frustrating it can be to talk to someone who only knows French for example. Even though I took three years of it.

The hostility exists because he's flat-out denying service if people can't or won't speak English. If he asked clients to speak English, but didn't withhold service when they didn't, that would be different.

He was not racist. We got it. End of this semantics discussion.

*here's me hoping for Neesika to abstain from a reply*

He was not racist. We got it. End of this semantics discussion.

*here's me hoping for Neesika to abstain from a reply*

Neesika and I go back a long long way - Let us have our little spats OK.

Well I'm not really familiar in NS1 forums (used only to post in NS2), I was just speaking in general. I don't know him/her/it :p

The hostility exists because he's flat-out denying service if people can't or won't speak English. If he asked clients to speak English, but didn't withhold service when they didn't, that would be different.

He has that right. It is his decision if he wants to provide the service or not. If the customer doesn't want to at least try to speak English - in England remember - then they can always go to someone else - that is their right.

If, however, he wants his clients to use good quality English, then he has no leg to stand on. Most natives of England do not, and can not use English at all well.

ha!

He has that right. It is his decision if he wants to provide the service or not. If the customer doesn't want to at least try to speak English - in England remember - then they can always go to someone else - that is their right.

He doesn't have that right, though. He's not the private proprietor of his little shop. He's the postmaster at a post office. He's an employee of the government. Unless it's now the official policy of the Royal Mail to refuse service if the customer cannot speak English, he does not have that right.

He doesn't have that right, though. He's not the private proprietor of his little shop. He's the postmaster at a post office. He's an employee of the government. Unless it's now the official policy of the Royal Mail to refuse service if the customer cannot speak English, he does not have that right.

Check your facts Sdaerjii - unlike you to slip on that I must admit.

He is his own boss - Post Office Counters Ltd is a franchise where people buy the right to deliver the services that USED to be delivered by Her Majesties Post Office. All that the Post Office itself still does is deliver mail - the rest of the functions, such as cashing GIROs etc have been subcontracted out. He does have the right - like it or not. There is nothing in the contract that allows you to function as a post office that requires you to serve all those requesting service - if there were then all post offices would have to be open 24/7 etc.

That's how it works in Civ 4.

Except that in Vanilla Civ 4, there is no such thing as "ethnicity". If I'm playing as Incan and I occupy a British city, its culture will eventually become 100% Incan.

It would suck if they did retain British culture (ie. British ethnics) because the concept of Nationalism would make any colonization/subjugation heavily unbalanced.

I think the intent of Sid Meier was (if not for the lack of a good way to incorporate Nationalism other than the mildly useful civic that comes with the tech) was that ethnicity really didn't matter. The British family under Incan rule will eventually adopt Incan culture and be completely assimilated.

The same opinion as ever - You're welcome ;)
Right, good to know. Fuck you too, over.
Let's see now - what people of white Caucasian ethnicity exist that might not speak English - (English being almost a nationality and a language as opposed to an ethnicity - as I am sure you are fully aware) -well there are the French, Italian, Belgian, Polish, Spanish, Portuguese, Austrian, Czech, Slovakian, Ukranian, Romanian, Hungarian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Bielorussian - shall I go on?

I have left out the Dutch, Germans, Swedish, Finn, Icelandic, Norwegian etc. as they are likely to speak better English that the English. When human rights legislation is passed, it quite often lists a number of prohibited grounds of discrimination, some of which might seem to cover the same areas. Race, ethnicity, colour, national origin. To many people, these issues are all tied up with one another. Do we have the words, ethnicist? Colourist? National-originist? No. Racism is a nice, general term that sums up all sorts of ass-hatery. You see, I don't know about you, but when I think of someone as being a 'bigot' or a 'racist', one or the other doesn't make me think less lowly of him. If you want me to only call him a bigot, by all means, substitute that word in your head. But 'too quick to call him a racist'? Please.


You were way too quick to label him a racist - there is no evidence for this whatsoever - but then why should that stop you?

Yes well when I'm making a fucking legal argument, I will refrain from labelling him in any way, as the proper way of going about it is to refer to the behaviour, not the person. I would point out he is (under Canadian law,you know just to give you an example) engaging in prohibited forms of discrimination.

In the meantime, I'm going to call him a douchebag (is he? wait, that's inaccurate too, there is no evidence he has douche solution inside him) as well.

The dominant language in Britain is English. Other languages are comparatively minor. Besides, I think it's a bit ridiculous to compare a native language like Welsh or Scots to a completely foreign one like Punjabi.

Just picking this one as an example - it doesn't refer entirely to this post, but I'm not going to multi-quite I-don't-know-how-many posts...

You've never been to England, have you?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25213217-23109,00.html



So, even this guy, who immigrated himself, says that immigrants aren't making enough of an effort to integrate. What do you have to say to that, NSG?

His shop, his choice. Between the nativists who lose potential income because they refuse to give service to foreigners, and the foreigners who lose potential income because they don't learn English, a happy medium will be found between all the peaceful and voluntary interactions and exchanges among the population.

Leaving the insult trading aside for now:


When human rights legislation is passed, it quite often lists a number of prohibited grounds of discrimination, some of which might seem to cover the same areas. Race, ethnicity, colour, national origin. To many people, these issues are all tied up with one another. Do we have the words, ethnicist? Colourist? National-originist? No. Racism is a nice, general term that sums up all sorts of ass-hatery. You see, I don't know about you, but when I think of someone as being a 'bigot' or a 'racist', one or the other doesn't make me think less lowly of him. If you want me to only call him a bigot, by all means, substitute that word in your head. But 'too quick to call him a racist'? Please.

If it were just a case of labelling, then I could accept, albeit with a large dose of salt, your argument, but it is not. In labelling him a racist you are denying to yourself, and trying to deny to others as well, the chance to actually consider what he has done and why he has done it.

You have not considered, in any way whatsoever, the case that he has presented - that that as he is in England it would be reasonable for him to expect people to at least try to speak English. While you could argue that this position is wrong, and explain why you consider it to be wrong, you didn't do that. You simply said to yourself - 'Racist' and that immediately invalidated, without justification, whatever his position was.

Now what is your opinion on immigrants and language learning? - should people be expected to learn at least the rudimentary basics of the language of the country they have chosen to live in - or can they justifiably claim that that would be cultural imperialism and they have every right to retain exclusively their culture and language despite having migrated?

My opinion is clear, and I stated it in an earlier post - but what do you think on this. You are in a position to have an opinion - and a strong one if I know anything about you - given that you have first hand experience of both immigrants and cultural conflict.

The hostility exists because he's flat-out denying service if people can't or won't speak English. If he asked clients to speak English, but didn't withhold service when they didn't, that would be different.

How can you provide service to someone who can't tell you what they want becase they refuse to speak your birth language? If they want service so bad, have them hire a translator. You're putting an honest businessman in an impossible situation for ridiculous PC browny points.

How can you provide service to someone who can't tell you what they want becase they refuse to speak your birth language? If they want service so bad, have them hire a translator. You're putting an honest businessman in an impossible situation for ridiculous PC browny points.

Impossible, how?

If the cashing of your giro, for example, requires dropping your giro on the counter, and showing a form of ID...

...how does their ability to speak a langauge (ANY language, actually?) render serving them 'impossible'?

How can you provide service to someone who can't tell you what they want becase they refuse to speak your birth language? If they want service so bad, have them hire a translator. You're putting an honest businessman in an impossible situation for ridiculous PC browny points.

'Monkeys point'; indeed they do, but it does cover the language barrier, through means of non-verbal communication. Some people can flounder through. Words are just one more method of communication. None of the words in this sentence would make sense to you unless you knew what the combinations of characters meant. Language is just one of many ways of communicating. Words are limited in many ways. Don't hate something for its fundamental limitations; work around. Chasms are developed between humans through denial of another. Our world is messed up enough without more people alienating more people and over such trivial matters.

'Monkeys point'; indeed they do, but it does cover the language barrier, through means of non-verbal communication. Some people can flounder through. Words are just one more method of communication. None of the words in this sentence would make sense to you unless you knew what the combinations of characters meant. Language is just one of many ways of communicating. Words are limited in many ways. Don't hate something for its fundamental limitations; work around. Chasms are developed between humans through denial of another. Our world is messed up enough without more people alienating more people and over such trivial matters.

I rather like that. Yes, language is limited. Words limit us.

Yeah but it's more efficient than the alternative :p

I rather like that. Yes, language is limited. Words limit us.

Yeah but it's more efficient than the alternative :p

Yes, words are limited. It's a matter of time before we run out of adjectives to describe something. At this time, it may be more effective than alternatives, but who's to say it won't evolve for us or that it is efficient; it's convenient, no? Who knows, 1000 years from now, we could be Betazoids... ;)

Yes, words are limited. It's a matter of time before we run out of adjectives to describe something. At this time, it may be more effective than alternatives, but who's to say it won't evolve for us or that it is efficient; it's convenient, no? Who knows, 1000 years from now, we could be Betazoids... ;)

*cough*geek*cough*

>_>

<_<

*cough*geek*cough*

>_>

<_<

How dare you! I'm a nerd! Yeesh, get it right.

*cough*geek*cough*

>_>

<_<

Excuse me, sir! But I take offense to that. You say it like it's a bad thing. I am a geek too. <_<

Yes, words are limited. It's a matter of time before we run out of adjectives to describe something. At this time, it may be more effective than alternatives, but who's to say it won't evolve for us or that it is efficient; it's convenient, no? Who knows, 1000 years from now, we could be Betazoids... ;)That's what 1337 5p34k is for :p

Now on a more serious note, I think english is already too complicated. Adjectives don't need to be made up, we can use simple combinations as it is even seen in most english words. You want to give a "name" to the room where your bed is? bedroom! tada! Couldn't be simpler ;)

Excuse me, sir! But I take offense to that. You say it like it's a bad thing. I am a geek too. <_<True geeks don't take offense to anything, except when their geeky activities are being threatened :p

That's what 1337 5p34k is for :p

Now on a more serious note, I think english is already too complicated. Adjectives don't need to be made up, we can use simple combinations as it is even seen in most english words. You want to give a "name" to the room where your bed is? bedroom! tada! Couldn't be simpler ;)

Since you've got the solution... what name should I give to the room my toilet's in? :tongue:

Excuse me, sir! But I take offense to that. You say it like it's a bad thing. I am a geek too. <_<

Think about it, nanchan...

Was I saying it was a bad thing?

If I knew what 'betazoid' was... what would that say about me....

<_<

>_>

Since you've got the solution... what name should I give to the room my toilet's in? :tongue:

If I learned anything from Peter Griffin it's the answer to that. You should call it the poopdeck.

Think about it, nanchan...

Was I saying it was a bad thing?

If I knew what 'betazoid' was... what would that say about me....

<_<

>_>

Em... <_< >_>
What's a betazoid, Grave-sama?

Em... <_< >_>
What's a betazoid, Grave-sama?

Well, right, you've got your basic, actual alphazoid, right?

Well, if you update the version on your pre-release zoid.

um.

Those are lovely shoes.

<_<

>_>

Well, right, you've got your basic, actual alphazoid, right?

Well, if you update the version on your pre-release zoid.

um.

Those are lovely shoes.

<_<

>_>

Chotto mate! What?:eek2:

Chotto mate! What?:eek2:

Since Grave wants to be difficult, here's the wiki explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betazoid

Chotto mate! What?:eek2:

Um.

My porridge, all salty?

Since Grave wants to be difficult, here's the wiki explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betazoid

*cough*geek*cough*

<_<

>_>

Since Grave wants to be difficult, here's the wiki explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betazoid

*waves little fist in anger*
Damn all this Trekkie culture!:mad:

*waves little fist in anger*
Damn all this Trekkie culture!:mad:

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that someone would accuse ME of being 'difficult'.

ME!

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that someone would accuse ME of being 'difficult'.

ME!

You? Difficult? Never!:wink:

Leaving the insult trading aside for now: How sweet of you.

If it were just a case of labelling, then I could accept, albeit with a large dose of salt, your argument, but it is not. In labelling him a racist you are denying to yourself, and trying to deny to others as well, the chance to actually consider what he has done and why he has done it. Bullshit. I can think about it just fine despite the label, and so can everyone else. Don't worry, someone with such low intelligence as I will not be missed from such a scintillating debate.

You have not considered, in any way whatsoever, the case that he has presented - that that as he is in England it would be reasonable for him to expect people to at least try to speak English. While you could argue that this position is wrong, and explain why you consider it to be wrong, you didn't do that. You simply said to yourself - 'Racist' and that immediately invalidated, without justification, whatever his position was. Actually, what I was responding to was the OP's attempt to hold up an ethnic minority taking a stance that a white person would (rightfully) be lambasted for as though said minority's status as a minority made it ok.

The rest of this language debate does not interest me at this point, and your attempt to pique my interest only managed to chap my ass.

I feel like a sucker. I just read this entire thread through. How foolish of me.

Ok, I feel as another Australian I should apologise for FO and dispel a few of the myths he was perpetuating. Let me start by saying that people who live in America and Britain and (presumably, I'll admit my ignorance here) other countries can speak with authority on the subject of immigrant cohabitation. It seems pretty similar all over the world.

Most Australian culture is wonderfully inclusive and diverse, as it is in most multicultural societies. I really love that I can get food from anywhere in the world and see culture from anywhere in the world, but I'll admit I don't take extra special notice most of the time. It's just the way things are, and it's good.

When cultural friction does occur, however, it usually comes from one of two sources:
1) Xenophobic nationalists of colonial or convict descent who have some terribly misplaced pride in White Australia and can't stand the thought of anyone not lily-white getting ahead in society. These are a minority of Anglo-Australians, but it happens. They get drunk and aggressive, and we see riots on beaches.

2) Young first or second generation immigrants. We're talking teenagers who either moved here as children or were born here soon after their parents moved here. Due to their parent's low socio-economic status and the enclaving pressures put on them by some aspects of society, combined with an inability of the education system to understand their needs, some of these youngsters do form a gang mentality, which can lead to violence of the sort he was mentioning (stabbings at train stations and such). These kids are angry at the way they are treated by society and at their lot in life. Can you blame them? That being said, gangs are not exclusive to immigrants. In fact, I grew up in an area which had a fairly pervasive anti-immigrant gang. Funnily enough, it was caused by the same factors of low socio-economic status and poor education. I'm led to understand this is a fairly common correlation, perhaps even a causation, but I don't have the stats to make that claim.

In my experience, I've seen much more violence and crime perpetrated by white Australians than anyone else, more often than not alcohol fuelled, whereas the violence I've witnessed by immigrants tends to be more anger and poverty-fuelled.

I'm sure you'd all dismissed Rusty's claims as the bogus steaming pile of hogwash they are, but just in case, I felt someone should come in here to refute the last of his claims.

Oh, and as a response to the actual OP (gods, I can't believe I can still remember what that was about), let me just clarify.

So a guy, who was an immigrant himself and who now runs a post office, is refusing service to those who won't speak to him in English?
And this post office is still the way government handouts are transferred/government benefit schemes organised and beurocratically confirmed?
Thus, by refusing to serve them if they don't speak to him in English, he is denying them money they need to live, and maybe take english language courses?

Twat.

You know what's funny? What if he was given the same treatment when he immigrated?

You know what's funny? What if he was given the same treatment when he immigrated?

That doesn't seem to matter to people like him for some reason. The whole "eye for an eye" thing maybe?

I feel like a sucker. I just read this entire thread through. How foolish of me.

Ok, I feel as another Australian I should apologise for FO and dispel a few of the myths he was perpetuating. Let me start by saying that people who live in America and Britain and (presumably, I'll admit my ignorance here) other countries can speak with authority on the subject of immigrant cohabitation. It seems pretty similar all over the world.

Most Australian culture is wonderfully inclusive and diverse, as it is in most multicultural societies. I really love that I can get food from anywhere in the world and see culture from anywhere in the world, but I'll admit I don't take extra special notice most of the time. It's just the way things are, and it's good.

When cultural friction does occur, however, it usually comes from one of two sources:
1) Xenophobic nationalists of colonial or convict descent who have some terribly misplaced pride in White Australia and can't stand the thought of anyone not lily-white getting ahead in society. These are a minority of Anglo-Australians, but it happens. They get drunk and aggressive, and we see riots on beaches.

2) Young first or second generation immigrants. We're talking teenagers who either moved here as children or were born here soon after their parents moved here. Due to their parent's low socio-economic status and the enclaving pressures put on them by some aspects of society, combined with an inability of the education system to understand their needs, some of these youngsters do form a gang mentality, which can lead to violence of the sort he was mentioning (stabbings at train stations and such). These kids are angry at the way they are treated by society and at their lot in life. Can you blame them? That being said, gangs are not exclusive to immigrants. In fact, I grew up in an area which had a fairly pervasive anti-immigrant gang. Funnily enough, it was caused by the same factors of low socio-economic status and poor education. I'm led to understand this is a fairly common correlation, perhaps even a causation, but I don't have the stats to make that claim.

In my experience, I've seen much more violence and crime perpetrated by white Australians than anyone else, more often than not alcohol fuelled, whereas the violence I've witnessed by immigrants tends to be more anger and poverty-fuelled.

I'm sure you'd all dismissed Rusty's claims as the bogus steaming pile of hogwash they are, but just in case, I felt someone should come in here to refute the last of his claims.

Well considering that 95% of the Australian population is caucasian of course we are going to see a larger amount of crime by these people. Are larger proportional amount well that is another issue.

Something I have noticed within Australia is that even 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants also tend to take on the culture of Australia which is to be wary of new arrivals. It has been happening since 1888. FeO himself is one of these immigrant families from Italy, and also exhibits these tendencies. The question is if his family was one of those that learnt the language picked up some of the culture within Australia and expressed dismay at other Italian families who refused to do this. While people maybe acting out for one reason or another whether it is because their neighborhoods have turned into drug ridden high crime areas where they read in the media how it is these people (e.g. Gang rape of 13 year old girl by Lebanese boys) and thus get angry at this, or some that tell us that Australian women shouldn't be dressing like they do (e.g they dress like raw meat). Then these new immigrants maybe have been "educated wrong" and while some ave turned to crime, which by the way is still wrong regardless of their reasons. Remember even the English which moved to Australia in the 60's and 70's in large numbers got the same type of treatment. Some of these groups really don't help themselves when they start fighting amongst themselves as they did in Europe here in Australia (e.g The fighting amongst Croatians and Serbians at the Australian Open).

I doubt it's "eye for an eye" because I doubt he WAS given that treatment.

You know what's funny? What if he was given the same treatment when he immigrated?

He more than likely was, or indeed his family was (he is from an immagrant Italian family), this sort of thing has been going on since 1888, it is apart of the culture, hence the phrase "I'm not racist, I'm Australian"

I was actually talking about the guy from the article.

I was actually talking about the guy from the article.

Sorry about that, thought we were talking about FeO. Maybe the guy from the article didn't all that much maybe he did learn the language so it was easier for him to be able to live in the UK. Don't know how immigrants are treated in the UK so I can't comment on other issues that he may have encountered.

No worries at least this thread gave me a history lesson too :p (seriously)

Well considering that 95% of the Australian population is caucasian of course we are going to see a larger amount of crime by these people. Are larger proportional amount well that is another issue.

Something I have noticed within Australia is that even 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants also tend to take on the culture of Australia which is to be wary of new arrivals. It has been happening since 1888. FeO himself is one of these immigrant families from Italy, and also exhibits these tendencies. The question is if his family was one of those that learnt the language picked up some of the culture within Australia and expressed dismay at other Italian families who refused to do this. While people maybe acting out for one reason or another whether it is because their neighborhoods have turned into drug ridden high crime areas where they read in the media how it is these people (e.g. Gang rape of 13 year old girl by Lebanese boys) and thus get angry at this, or some that tell us that Australian women shouldn't be dressing like they do (e.g they dress like raw meat). Then these new immigrants maybe have been "educated wrong" and while some ave turned to crime, which by the way is still wrong regardless of their reasons. Remember even the English which moved to Australia in the 60's and 70's in large numbers got the same type of treatment. Some of these groups really don't help themselves when they start fighting amongst themselves as they did in Europe here in Australia (e.g The fighting amongst Croatians and Serbians at the Australian Open).

Well, I grew up in a fairly multicultural area, but as I don't have the stats to back up proportionally, I'm going to have to let it slide as anecdotally it seeems like proportionally more crime by white Australians.

Also, where did you get your 95% caucasian from, just out of interest? I just started working in a call centre, and from what I've seen so far, it's probably closer to 50%. But again, anecdotal in the extreme.

And you are correct about some immigrants being wary of new immigrants, but I again have to wonder why that is. Surely they can't have forgotten what they themselves or their parents went through? I don't get it. But I find that that's generally a minority view amongst immigrant families.

No violent crime is acceptable, on that we can agree, regardless of the reasoning behind it. I was just trying to provide some counterpoint to the ridiculous "it's coz dey're niggers lol" reasoning as to why.

(Oh, and isn't FeO of Ukrainian descent?)

Well, I grew up in a fairly multicultural area, but as I don't have the stats to back up proportionally, I'm going to have to let it slide as anecdotally it seeems like proportionally more crime by white Australians.

Yes that is true.

Also, where did you get your 95% caucasian from, just out of interest? I just started working in a call centre, and from what I've seen so far, it's probably closer to 50%. But again, anecdotal in the extreme.

My mistake it has actually dropped since I last saw it. It is now 92%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html

And you are correct about some immigrants being wary of new immigrants, but I again have to wonder why that is. Surely they can't have forgotten what they themselves or their parents went through? I don't get it. But I find that that's generally a minority view amongst immigrant families.

Well current immigrants (that is those came here not 2nd or 3rd gen) have said (only anecdotal) that they don't see why some should be getting the same benefits and/or trying to live like they did in the old country and ask for Australians to follow suit because they have come to a new country and they should be adapting to this new country which includes learning the language and accepting that some things are done differently. I would say that is why my family had a better time becoming Australian and why my grand father and father didn't cop much shit for being immigrants because they did learn how to speak English and accepted how things were done here and didn't unlike other groups tuck themselves into little areas and refused to have anything to do with the country.

As for 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants many of them would have been going to school mixing with Australians learning the language and following the culture, as I say being wary of new people is apart of the Australian culture so these 2nd and 3rd gen people would be acting the same as other Australians since 1888.

No violent crime is acceptable, on that we can agree, regardless of the reasoning behind it. I was just trying to provide some counterpoint to the ridiculous "it's coz dey're niggers lol" reasoning as to why.

Oh ok fair enough but I do think there are also other reasons as well some of which I have already mentioned.

(Oh, and isn't FeO of Ukrainian descent?)

I'm pretty sure he called himself a "wog" before and said he was Italian as well, but he may very well be.

You? Difficult? Never!:wink:

I know!

They don't say "Grave, the most helpful guy on NSG" for nothing.




No really, they don't say it - and they do it for nothing.

He more than likely was, or indeed his family was (he is from an immagrant Italian family), this sort of thing has been going on since 1888, it is apart of the culture, hence the phrase "I'm not racist, I'm Australian"

Absolutely not Italian.

Absolutely not Italian.

I must have been mistaking you for someone else. Where exactly is your family from then?

I must have been mistaking you for someone else. Where exactly is your family from then?

Mother's side from Germany, father's side from Ukraine

Mother's side from Germany, father's side from Ukraine

Actually as I clicked this link to see your reply it hit me that you had said your mother was from Germany, oops. Wasn't aware about the Ukraine bit.

That's pathetic.

How the hell did you ever become a world superpower? Your history should be revoked.

Gee. Could it be that you are wrong about what makes a superpower a superpower and they are right about what makes a superpower a superpower?

Multiculturalism is delicious. FACT.

Hells yes.

Brazilian, Vietnamese, Ethiopian, Afghani, etc...all have phenomenal cuisine.

Right now? Tea, Monty Python and the Beatles.

Being Brazilian means samba, cheap beer, and Giselle Bündchen.

Hey, you forgot cachaça and caipirinhas! :mad:

:p

Hey, you forgot cachaça and caipirinhas! :mad:

:p

NO they aren't delicious.

1- Not really an "excuse". You claimed we got our asses kicked. I pointed out there was no battle.

To be fair, there was a small amount of fighting, but it was not on nearly the same scale as the other Latin American wars of independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Declaration_of_Independence#British_and_French_contribution

Though he's wrong about one thing: You guys kicked the asses of the Portuguese. ;)

NO they aren't delicious.

I vehemently disagree. :)

Wales is a different nation. It's bilingual.
What other language do they speak there, limpit? Doesn't matter, the world would be much better off if everyone just spoke khmer.

Then what is Britain? He said himself that if they don't want to be British they should go home. Britain is, in part, multilingual and has been for centuries. But I'm sure the destruction of society will happen because of those filthy Welsh eventually. Any day now.

Any Welsh-based destruction will likely involve Cardiff going supernova. That's how it usually is.

Also you're quoting a news site who quoted the Daily Mail who over the past couple of years have:

Said goths and emos listen to music about suicide and claim this sub culture is more like a cult.

Been sued by David Duchovny when the paper published a story saying he cheated on his wife AFTER they were told that the story was false.

Prince Charles sued the Associated Newspapers group, owners of the Daily Mail, for breach of copyright and confidentiality.

In a nutshell, The Daily Mail is one of the worst British Newspapers on sale today and print false allegations about a lot of things or anything that backs up stories that the Immigrants are the Evils!



This.

It sounds like a newspaper published by Uwe Boll.

Or NSG.

:D

That's pathetic.

How the hell did you ever become a world superpower? Your history should be revoked.

Um Potato Boy, without Britain, that lovely continental penal colony you call a home wouldn't have existed as anything but Aboriginal land in the first place. Brilliant foresight much?

Um Potato Boy, without Britain, that lovely continental penal colony you call a home wouldn't have existed as anything but Aboriginal land in the first place. Brilliant foresight much?

We would still be here just not speaking the English tongue. Maybe French or Spanish?

We would still be here just not speaking the English tongue. Maybe French or Spanish?

German, surely? :D

A) I'm not a protestant
You papist! ;)
b) Being white has nothing todo with it. It is only the Anglo-Saxon that matters.
So, I'd guess that Welshmen and Scotsmen are second-class subjects by your standards (as well as a good lot of Englishmen) since Celts aren't Anglosaxons. Btw, I'm sure that your Queen disagrees, as she's part German.


Back to comparing me to Hitler eh?
The Nazi's to be fair did prove that the Germans were a great people- I mean to occupy Europe for 5 years is pretty impressive.


Actually no, not very impressive, because they lost everything in less than 6 years. Nor did they ever manage to occupy ALL Europe.

By the way, your reasoning implies that:
1.the English are a lesser people because they never managed to occupy Europe for 5 years.
2.the French are a greater people than the Germans: Napoleon occupied most of Europe for more than 5 years.
3.the Russians can be discussed: surely they occupied a good deal of Europe for about 40 years.

Your reasonings are made of fail.

German, surely? :D

Nnapulitano. There are Neapolitans EVERYWHERE!

How can you provide service to someone who can't tell you what they want becase they refuse to speak your birth language?
The French don't seem to struggle with it. I spent a week in Paris and managed to shop at the market, eat at several restaurants, and interact with any number of French individuals using a combination of gestures and the four French words I know ("where" "how many" and "bathroom").

Okay, let me get this straight.

FO finds a tabloid story about a moron who, likely after receiving treatment X in England, decided to dish it out to others.

FO treats said moron as if he were a big specialist in immigration in the UK - which is more or less like assuming a guy that got his teeth cleaned and sneers at people didn't to be UK's leading specialist in odontology, really.

The thread, about 5-hours old, goes on for eighteen pages.

People, aren't you giving FO too much credit?
In my defense, I didn't have any previous experience with Rusty. At least none that I remember. I thought he was a NEW racist around here. You see, I miss the old Stormfronter days around here, when the front page always contained at least four of Paratoga's threads about how racism is totally not her petty way of screaming for attention. I beg forgiveness on the grounds that I was blinded by nostalgia.

UKian? The UK and Great Britain are 2 different things.

Great Britain refers to the island of Britain and the 3 nations Scotland, England and Wales.

The UK refers to the 3 nations mentioned and Northern Ireland.

I suppose they are interchangeable in a way. Doesn't mean being British or Irish or whatever is more meaningful than any other nationality.
Helpful venn diagram is helpful!
http://qntm.org/files/uk/uk.gif

The French don't seem to struggle with it. I spent a week in Paris and managed to shop at the market, eat at several restaurants, and interact with any number of French individuals using a combination of gestures and the four French words I know ("where" "how many" and "bathroom").

This required YOU to make the effort to know at least those four French words, plus the ability to listen to French speakers and determine where the conversation was heading.

We are discussing a private business owner who has to deal with immigrants who (apparently) refuse to even speak one word in English. And I assure you as a former shopkeeper that there are going to be much more complex issues at hand then bathrooms and souvenir stall item counting.

::runs outside:: You can't just drive away with a tankful of gas without paying! It will screw up my employee's register!!

::non-English speaker:: Kermit freeble hush limmji?

::me:: dammit.


This exact situation is contrived, but the point is valid.

Couldn't the man have just said, "I'm sorry, I don't speak (insert your language here)" as opposed to "Speak English or no service for you!"

@_@

I'm actually in support of what he is trying to do, but not his methods. If he personally has a strong preference for the English language and British culture, then that is fine but you can't make other people feel the same way.

Also, I feel like that article wasn't the best source.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2327019.ece

Deva has refused to serve half a dozen customers since imposing his rule on Monday at his Sneinton Boulevard Post Office in Nottingham.

He said those unable to even ask for stamps wasted everyone’s time and infuriated other customers.

But he agreed to serve those who returned to the store with interpreters — and said each one had done so.

The 40-year-old father of two — who quickly learned English after arriving here 18 years ago — said: “When I left Sri Lanka I left behind that country’s culture, customs and language.

“I came to Britain and have done my utmost ever since to be part of this country’s culture.

“The fabric of the nation begins to unravel if we don’t all speak the same language.

“You can’t be wholly part of British culture if you don’t speak the language. There are far too many people who come to this country and expect Britain to change to suit them. It’s high time that mind-set went.

“I feel that as an outsider who now feels he belongs that I can tell others what they should do.”

Deva, who calls customers “Duck” and “Dear” went on: “For instance, an Asian woman came in here on Tuesday and I insisted she spoke to me in English.

“She replied that she preferred to speak in her mother tongue, but I told her that Britain was now her motherland and therefore she should speak English.”

He said not one person he sent away had objected. Each had returned with a friend to explain they were trying to learn English.

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He added: “I simply explained I cannot give a service if they cannot tell me what they want and they seemed to take it well.

“That is my rule now and I intend sticking to it.

“I decided to make this stand because I think too many British people are afraid to speak up. They are afraid of being branded racist.

“Perhaps it’s a view better coming from a man with my background.

“Of course I don’t expect immigrants to be fluent overnight. Lots of people struggle to master another language but they get much more respect if they at least try.

“It’s about making the effort to be part of the community where you have decided to live. I don’t think it’s a lot to ask.

“In Sri Lanka the kids have courtesy. They have discipline. Here all that is gone. Let’s work together to bring back all this.

“This is about unity among the people in this country who are proud to live here, whether they are Asian, black or white.”

Childhood ... Deva in Sri Lanka

Childhood ... Deva in Sri Lanka

Deva — who flies Union Flags in his front garden and from his car — lives with wife Durga, a 39-year-old nurse, and the couple’s daughters Shahani, ten, and Heshini, eight. Both girls want to join the RAF when they grow up.

Deva said: “Recently I asked my children if they knew the words to the National Anthem but was shocked when they said they didn’t. I had assumed they would have been taught it at school. I told them I want them to learn it.”

Deva, a Liberal Democrat councillor, has even set up a website, www.britishnessforever.co.uk.

In Sneinton, Polish electrician Paul Kazmierczak, 34, backed the campaign. He said: “Deva is right. There is no excuse for not speaking English.”

And local Jacob Amoni, 29, from Ethiopia, agreed, saying: “Being able to speak English is a big help.”

But Afzal Sadiq, of the local Racial Equality Council, said: “The service is there for everybody — not just for everybody who can speak the language. I understand the aspiration, but denying someone a public service on the grounds of language is wrong.”

And a Royal Mail spokeswoman said: “Post Office branches are a vital part of all communities and are open to all customers. We are taking steps to ensure this happens at Sneinton Boulevard Post Office.”

I think the second article proves the guy is just being pragmatic and not intentionally trying to be a jerk.

This required YOU to make the effort to know at least those four French words, plus the ability to listen to French speakers and determine where the conversation was heading.

We are discussing a private business owner who has to deal with immigrants who (apparently) refuse to even speak one word in English. And I assure you as a former shopkeeper that there are going to be much more complex issues at hand then bathrooms and souvenir stall item counting.

::runs outside:: You can't just drive away with a tankful of gas without paying! It will screw up my employee's register!!

::non-English speaker:: Kermit freeble hush limmji?

::me:: dammit.


This exact situation is contrived, but the point is valid.

No we're not.

We are talking about a post office worker. This is very much NOT a private business.
We are furthermore talking about immigrants who know english but know the worker KNOW their mother tongue and talks in the tongue easier for them.

That post office worker is an ass. His point is lost in the douchebaggerry he's doing.

I think the second article proves the guy is just being pragmatic and not intentionally trying to be a jerk.

Each {customer} had returned with a friend to explain they were trying to learn English...

Not really. He sent people who are actually trying to learn English away because their command of the language didn't satisfy his personal expectations.
That sounds like a total jerk to me, to be perfectly honest. Can you imagine trying to learn a language, really making the effort, and then being sent away at the post office cause this dick thinks you're not good enough?

This required YOU to make the effort to know at least those four French words, plus the ability to listen to French speakers and determine where the conversation was heading.

Um...no.

I exerted absolutely no effort to learn French. I'm not PROUD of that, it's just the truth.


We are discussing a private business owner who has to deal with immigrants who (apparently) refuse to even speak one word in English.

I don't think you quite understood my post. Most interactions (like, say, ordering lunch) cannot be handled using my four French words. So most of the interactions I had with French speakers were ones in which either 1) they were willing and able to speak MY language, 2) we communicated through gestures and expressions.


And I assure you as a former shopkeeper that there are going to be much more complex issues at hand then bathrooms and souvenir stall item counting.

::runs outside:: You can't just drive away with a tankful of gas without paying! It will screw up my employee's register!!

::non-English speaker:: Kermit freeble hush limmji?

::me:: dammit.


This exact situation is contrived, but the point is valid.
So your argument is that you, personally, are lousy at customer service and don't want to improve?

Meh. I'll shop elsewhere, and so will all the non-English speakers. Capitalism, baby!

Not really. He sent people who are actually trying to learn English away because their command of the language didn't satisfy his personal expectations.
That sounds like a total jerk to me, to be perfectly honest. Can you imagine trying to learn a language, really making the effort, and then being sent away at the post office cause this dick thinks you're not good enough?

I have been exposed from birth to the dialect from the southeastern shore of Lake Ontario. I'd bet he'd turn me away - and I'm a native speaker of the English language.

This required YOU to make the effort to know at least those four French words, plus the ability to listen to French speakers and determine where the conversation was heading.

We are discussing a private business owner who has to deal with immigrants who (apparently) refuse to even speak one word in English. And I assure you as a former shopkeeper that there are going to be much more complex issues at hand then bathrooms and souvenir stall item counting.

::runs outside:: You can't just drive away with a tankful of gas without paying! It will screw up my employee's register!!

::non-English speaker:: Kermit freeble hush limmji?

::me:: dammit.


This exact situation is contrived, but the point is valid.

Yeah, because that's a language barrier problem. :rolleyes:

Not really. He sent people who are actually trying to learn English away because their command of the language didn't satisfy his personal expectations.
That sounds like a total jerk to me, to be perfectly honest. Can you imagine trying to learn a language, really making the effort, and then being sent away at the post office cause this dick thinks you're not good enough?

It's obvious from the article they did not even attempt to speak English badly, but instead reverted to another language, leaving him and his employees confused. It's not him being a dick. However, the people defending the behavior of the customers are becoming very dickheaded.


No we're not.

We are talking about a post office worker. This is very much NOT a private business.
We are furthermore talking about immigrants who know english but know the worker KNOW their mother tongue and talks in the tongue easier for them.

That post office worker is an ass. His point is lost in the douchebaggerry he's doing.

That's just plain a lie - it's already been explained to you why this person's business is private and not government. And even if it was government, even the government cannot force their employees to speak a secondary language they don't wish to speak. Example if I know we both know two languages but for legal/security reasons all transactions must take place in English, then I would definitely enforce a policy like that.

Update: Cabra West, I think I know where your disagreement lies. You misunderstood the article - it's not that he sent them away after they brought back an interpretor. It's that the people came back with an interpretor and then he served them. If you read both articles closely, it seems the only people who have an issue with the shopkeeper's behavior are on Nationstates - and not immigrants?

Not really. He sent people who are actually trying to learn English away because their command of the language didn't satisfy his personal expectations.

That sounds like a total jerk to me, to be perfectly honest. Can you imagine trying to learn a language, really making the effort, and then being sent away at the post office cause this dick thinks you're not good enough?

If I was in that situation I would go away, look up the phrases I needed, and return prepared. I'd be a bit disappointed that my command of the language wasn't up to scratch just yet but that's not his fault

It's obvious from the article ....

It's the Sun. It's not obvious at all.

Yeah, because that's a language barrier problem. :rolleyes:

Well, it's a combination of two problems, one is the language barrier and the other is technical skills. The only time I had anything close to this happen is when someone tried to use a bank of Quebec ATM card as a credit card and it wasn't compatible with the card reader and they switched it to cash without realizing it. But they spoke great English, so problem solved.

If I was in that situation I would go away, look up the phrases I needed, and return prepared. I'd be a bit disappointed that my command of the language wasn't up to scratch just yet but that's not his fault

It may be a case of knowing what to say but the person's pronunciation is an issue because they may have not had great exposure to local pronunciation. They may be trying to speak phonetically, which may create problems because they won't know where to place the emphasis. Instead of being intolerant about it, try helping them by repeating and figuring it out. When they hear the proper way, they will likely try and mimic.

I always try and do this. At a Starbucks near my place, there was a girl working there who had a decent command of the language but would flub certain words. I realised she was struggling with one and asked her to repeat it and realised what she was trying to say. I then told her the correct pronunciation and she mimicked me, and was happy to have learnt the proper way to say "survey". It was nice to help someone.

People likely won't feel intimidated when you try and help. As it was said before, they likely get flustered when met with hostility as they try and swim through a new language.

We are talking about a post office worker. This is very much NOT a private business.

Alien Born pointed out that, just as in Canada, this is a postal service that has been contracted out to a private party...he's not a gov't employee.

Nonetheless, that doesn't automatically mean it's not a public service. There are a number of legal analysis out there that help figure out what exactly constitutes the sometimes murky public versus private issue.

Its not his private business, its a franchise, and he will have to conform to the rules laid down in his contract, which you can be pretty sure he's breaking. The shopkeeper cannot (and should not) really expect people to be able to bring a friend round to prove things, its not his decision. He is turning the post office into a political tool, which he shouldn't.

It's obvious from the article they did not even attempt to speak English badly, but instead reverted to another language, leaving him and his employees confused. It's not him being a dick. However, the people defending the behavior of the customers are becoming very dickheaded.

No, the article quite clearly states that the people sent away were "not able to ask for stamps" in English. It doesn't say anywhere they didn't try.


Update: Cabra West, I think I know where your disagreement lies. You misunderstood the article - it's not that he sent them away after they brought back an interpretor. It's that the people came back with an interpretor and then he served them. If you read both articles closely, it seems the only people who have an issue with the shopkeeper's behavior are on Nationstates - and not immigrants?

No, I think I understand quite clearly.
They tried to buy stamps without being able to properly ask for them in English (they may have gestured instead, possibly tried some broken English), and he sent them away.
All of them came back with interpreters, and all of them said that they were in the process of learning English. Do you think that his behaviour has helped them in their learning process? Rather than pointing at the things and say "stamps" to allow them to learn a new word, he sent them away. How frustrating is that for a learner?

And guess what? I am an immigrant.
And guess what else? I've got a British BF, who, on seeing this chap on the news, called him a self-righteous dickhead.