NationStates Jolt Archive

If that happens than we are doing what America has done to Iraq.

And you'll be exactly as hated and reviled and wrong as the US.

Please recall how much the rest of the world hates us for doing that.

It seem to me everyone hates Russia already. Like putin said-

Its funny how the aggressor (Georgia) can be seen as the victim and how we are seem as the aggressor now and not the victim.

We were the victim, yet the west turned it around to make was the aggressor.

It seem to me everyone hates Russia already. Like putin said-

Its funny how the aggressor (Georgia) can be seen as the victim and how we are seem as the aggressor now and not the victim.

We were the victim, yet the west turned it around to make was the aggressor.

The only victims here are the South Ossetians. Their home has been turned into a battlefield between Georgia and Russia.

And who the hell is Russia to determine that? The majority of Georgia doesn't want a regime change, they just elected that guy into office. Your country is merely setting up puppet governments like it did during the Cold War. Russia hasn't changed a bit have they? They still march right in put in an authoritarian government no one supports and oppresses the general population. And when it comes to war crimes your nations military does not have an good record. Russia's military operates under a policy of terrorizing the civilian population, with their indiscriminate shelling and murder of civilians including their own.

lies.

You are getting your information from pro-Georgian media.

Georgia aimed their weapons at peacekeepers and civilans.

It seem to me everyone hates Russia already. Like putin said-

Its funny how the aggressor (Georgia) can be seen as the victim and how we are seem as the aggressor now and not the victim.

We were the victim, yet the west turned it around to make was the aggressor.

Its sad everyone is so blind in your country to realize that he is still a lieing KGB scumbag.

This is absurd and will never happen.
Bombing bridges and airbases within Russia will let it bomb the same objects within Europe.

You can't fight war according to the US paradigm without crippling military and civilian infrastructure.

Power, command and control, airbases, railyards, bridges - all have to be hit in the first 48 hours to effect a "decaptitation".

Failing to cripple the enemy (including destroying the entire air defense network of radars, SAM sites, and airfields) is not the way the US fights - we have to do those things first, and swiftly, in order to gain predominance on the battlefield.

So we won't fight this one.

Oh come now, Putin has ground troops moving into Georgia in force. The populace is going to be more concerned about being in the warzone in the face of an invasion than about how weak their government is.
Uhu... allow me rephrase that.

"The Georgian government's army has been proven incapable of keeping the population safe, and people are now living in a warzone, but this isn't going to cause them to be pretty pissed at the government."

Seriously? I'd be pretty fucking livid as well as scared for my life.
If anything, it will simply unite the populace, unless Mikhael's been absolutely rubbish to them too, against Russia.
Aye well we're talking short term solidarity versus slightly longer-term regime change. It'll be worth it for Russia when the next presidentials come around.
If Putin had kept to airstrikes, I could see the argument, but invading to scare the population into voting for someone else just doesn't seem even logical.
Why not?

If your government has been proven incapable of stopping people invading, especially if they brought it upon the nation themselves, then you will look for an alternative.
Long enough to install a pro-Russian government I think.
No, I don't think so. Why not just wait for a couple of years?

lies.

You are getting your information from pro-Georgian media.

Georgia aimed their weapons at peacekeepers and civilans.

You are getting your information from pro-Russian media.

The only victims here are the South Ossetians. Their home has been turned into a battlefield between Georgia and Russia.


Most South Ossetians are Russian civilions.

lies.

You are getting your information from pro-Georgian media.

Georgia aimed their weapons at peacekeepers and civilans.

I'm getting my information from BBC, CNN, the Associated Press, and France 24. All very liberal journals who usually denounce the US and everything it does.

Its sad everyone is so blind in your country to realize that he is still a lieing KGB scumbag.
As opposed to someone who is both a lying scumbag, who dodged out of military service because he had a rich daddy?

I'm getting my information from BBC, CNN, the Associated Press, and France 24. All very liberal journals who usually denounce the US and everything it does.
... the BBC, CNN and AP are pretty neutral. France 24 are more anti-US, but none of them denounce the US all that often...

Its sad everyone is so blind in your country to realize that he is still a lieing KGB scumbag.

He is the greatest leader Russia had in a VERY long time.

It is the western leaders who are lieing sumbags.

Most South Ossetians are Russian civilions.

Less than half, actually. Which, by definition, cannot be most. Either way, totally irrelevant. Russia and Georgia have turned South Ossetia into a wasteland because of their little spat. Ossetians are the victims here. Not Georgians, and certainly not Russians living safely thousands of miles away from the fighting.

He is the greatest leader Russia had in a VERY long time.

It is the western leaders who are lieing sumbags.

Yeah, it takes a "great" man to order people to be assassinated by radioactive poison in a public place.

Yeah, it takes a "great" man to order people to be assassinated by radioactive poison in a public place.

More lies.

The only victims here are the South Ossetians. Their home has been turned into a battlefield between Georgia and Russia.
Russia (and, I assume, Soviet KLM Empire) see South Ossetia as their territory, albeit by proxy, and by extension, the Georgian attempt to reintegrate South Ossetia into Georgian controlled territory as an attack on Russian dominance in the region. It has to be said, though, that neither side really has the interests of the Ossetian people in mind.

How anyone can claim that Russia is a victim in this, though, is beyond me.

Less than half, actually. Which, by definition, cannot be most. Either way, totally irrelevant. Russia and Georgia have turned South Ossetia into a wasteland because of their little spat. Ossetians are the victims here. Not Georgians, and certainly not Russians living safely thousands of miles away from the fighting.

No, 70% do and thats over half.

We are trying to stop Georgia from further killing our people there.

Most South Ossetians are Russian civilions.

What are they doing living in Georgia.

As opposed to someone who is both a lying scumbag, who dodged out of military service because he had a rich daddy?

I'd rather have a career politician and military officer who spent years in the Hanoi Hilton, while Jane Fonda was betraying her country men at arms. I supported McCain in 2000 and I do now. Yes Bush was not a good idea, but the republican party was stupid, but this discussion isn't about that.

PS: Hanoi Jane is a traitor.

Soviet KLM, if Russia was truly just trying to secure peace in South Ossetia then why are they invading from Abkhazia? Why are they pushing into Georgian territory? This is just an attempt by the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin to destroy a critic in his area. This has nothing to do with South Ossetia and everything to do with being an opportunistic asshole trying to oust a democratically elected leader. Russia, like the USA, must learn that the world is not your playground and human rights should not end at your border. Saddam Hussein was a dictator who didn't give an inch to opposition, when comparing between Putin and Saakashvili it is easy to see that Putin's new "United Russia" is the same as Saddam Hussein's Iraq; one political party and the opposition is systematically assassinated. The Rose Revolution overthrew a dictatorial regime and now Putin wants to put a new one in place that is favorable to him.

Russia (and, I assume, Soviet KLM Empire) see South Ossetia as their territory, albeit by proxy, and by extension, the Georgian attempt to reintegrate South Ossetia into Georgian controlled territory as an attack on Russian dominance in the region. It has to be said, though, that neither side really has the interests of the Ossetian people in mind.

How anyone can claim that Russia is a victim in this, though, is beyond me.

Georgia killed around 15 of our peacekeepers at the start. They started this war and delcared war on us.

Yeah, it takes a "great" man to order people to be assassinated by radioactive poison in a public place.
He's a politician with almost absolute power in a still-autocratic state, these things are to be expected, and his 'victim' was an FSB double-agent who worked with the Italian intelligence services. He lost the game.

More lies.

Still brainwashed aren't you?

No, 70% do and thats over half.

We are trying to stop Georgia from further killing our people there.

Yeah your "So called Peacekeepers" were aiding seperatist terrorist who were killing Georgians civilians. So by all means the Georgians should do nothing and stand idly by as you people work to demise their government.

Erm, I'm pretty sure the declaration of war was just a reaction to the RUSSIAN TANK COLUMNS MOVING INTO GEORGIAN TERRITORY!

lies.

You are getting your information from pro-Georgian media.

Georgia aimed their weapons at peacekeepers and civilans.

I read from a Finnish source (Helsingin Sanomat) that the Russians are not willing to let journalist in South Ossetia. So I am to choose between the Russian government regulated media, Georgian government regulated media and the "western" media that operates in Georgia. To be honest I'm going to take everything with a grain of salt, but I would place my bets on the "western" media operating in Georgia.

Soviet KLM, if Russia was truly just trying to secure peace in South Ossetia then why are they invading from Abkhazia? Why are they pushing into Georgian territory? This is just an attempt by the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin to destroy a critic in his area. This has nothing to do with South Ossetia and everything to do with being an opportunistic asshole trying to oust a democratically elected leader. Russia, like the USA, must learn that the world is not your playground and human rights should not end at your border. Saddam Hussein was a dictator who didn't give an inch to opposition, when comparing between Putin and Saakashvili it is easy to see that Putin's new "United Russia" is the same as Saddam Hussein's Iraq; one political party and the opposition is systematically assassinated. The Rose Revolution overthrew a dictatorial regime and now Putin wants to put a new one in place that is favorable to him.

Putin is a great man and was elected by the Russian people. I only wish he could of served more than 2 terms.

To compare us to Saddam Husseins, just shows me how little you know about us as a people.

More lies.

It's not a lie, and you know it. Polonium doesn't just appear in sushi.

Erm, I'm pretty sure the declaration of war was just a reaction to the RUSSIAN TANK COLUMNS MOVING INTO GEORGIAN TERRITORY!

We only sent troops into Georgia after they started this conflict.

I'd rather have a career politician and military officer who spent years in the Hanoi Hilton, while Jane Fonda was betraying her country men at arms. I supported McCain in 2000 and I do now. Yes Bush was not a good idea, but the republican party was stupid, but this discussion isn't about that.
Why not?

Politicians are liars, and they do it for a living. It might seem minor as a comparison, but in my time in students' unions, you basically lie to get on.

I have a great respect for spies, they are basically actors without peer, and fine minds. I couldn't be one myself, I'm neither fit nor really smart enough, but there we go. Putin was not only a spy, but led the KGB. That's one hell of an effort, and I can't say I don't think better of him because of that.

Putin is a great man and was elected by the Russian people. I only wish he could of served more than 2 terms.

To compare us to Saddam Husseins, just shows me how little you know about us as a people.

Elected after critics were murdered. You got to love the Russian Freedom of the Press Policy. If you have something positive to say please stand up and say it. If you have something negative to say please stand up and say it and then you will be poisoned for treason.

Erm, I'm pretty sure the declaration of war was just a reaction to the RUSSIAN TANK COLUMNS MOVING INTO GEORGIAN TERRITORY!
No, the declaration of war was a reaction to the fact that Saskashvili thought he was going to win within 48 hours and be welcomed as a hero. As soon as Russian armour turned up his government went into "oh shit, let's call for a ceasefire right now" mode.

Putin is a great man and was elected by the Russian people. I only wish he could of served more than 2 terms.

To compare us to Saddam Husseins, just shows me how little you know about us as a people.

Putin is a damn dictator who has systematically destroyed the possibility of post-soviet Russia being a democratic state. Putin's goal is the same as that of Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Mussolini, Pinochet, Castro, and tons of other dictators. He wants to make Russia "great", but at the expense of what? Your civil liberties? Your political freedoms? Does he care more about selling the country to the multi-billionaire super-elite and selling out the Russians who struggle in their day-to-day lives? Does he care more about quashing all independent media through Gazprom than providing support for the Russian people? At least Bush isn't going to run for anyother office after he steps down in January, that makes him a hell of a lot better person than Putin-the-asshat.

Elected after critics were murdered. You got to love the Russian Freedom of the Press Policy. If you have something positive to say please stand up and say it. If you have something negative to say please stand up and say it and then you will be poisoned for treason.

More lies.

We are a free nation. We do not kill people for their veiws, whatever it may be.

I don't have to worry and watch what I say, in fear of being shot.

No, 70% do and thats over half.

We are trying to stop Georgia from further killing our people there.

70% are ethnic Ossetians, which I believe are ethnically related to Russians. But less than 50% accepted the Russian offer of citizenship to which you refer. So less than 50% are Russians in the legal sense.

But please, continue to claim I'm the one who is wrong here.

Why not?

Politicians are liars, and they do it for a living. It might seem minor as a comparison, but in my time in students' unions, you basically lie to get on.

I have a great respect for spies, they are basically actors without peer, and fine minds. I couldn't be one myself, I'm neither fit nor really smart enough, but there we go. Putin was not only a spy, but led the KGB. That's one hell of an effort, and I can't say I don't think better of him because of that.

Do you have any idea what the KGB did all those years it exsisted? It makes what the CIA and SAVAK (the Shah's Intel Agency) did in Iran look like fair and humane treatment of the population.

Elected after critics were murdered. You got to love the Russian Freedom of the Press Policy. If you have something positive to say please stand up and say it. If you have something negative to say please stand up and say it and then you will be poisoned for treason.
As opposed to the US, which portrays its press as free but doesn't let news crews film coffins being brought back to the US from overseas, and whose most popular news source, Fox, is basically a Republican propaganda channel which appeals to the lowest denominator?

Do you have any idea what the KGB did all those years it exsisted?
No, and nor do you.
It makes what the CIA and SAVAK (the Shah's Intel Agency) did in Iran look like fair and humane treatment of the population.
How could you possibly know?

I'm sure they did some terrible things, but I doubt that either of us will ever have any idea of what they really did.

Putin is a damn dictator who has systematically destroyed the possibility of post-soviet Russia being a democratic state. Putin's goal is the same as that of Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Mussolini, Pinochet, Castro, and tons of other dictators. He wants to make Russia "great", but at the expense of what? Your civil liberties? Your political freedoms? Does he care more about selling the country to the multi-billionaire super-elite and selling out the Russians who struggle in their day-to-day lives? Does he care more about quashing all independent media through Gazprom than providing support for the Russian people? At least Bush isn't going to run for anyother office after he steps down in January, that makes him a hell of a lot better person than Putin-the-asshat.

You are not Russian, how can you say we are better off or worse off without the leadership of Putins years?

No, the declaration of war was a reaction to the fact that Saskashvili thought he was going to win within 48 hours and be welcomed as a hero. As soon as Russian armour turned up his government went into "oh shit, let's call for a ceasefire right now" mode.

Aren't you essentially saying that the declaration of war was a reaction to the Russian armours turning up in Georgia?

Because at the point where any nation allows one man the amount of power that Putin has, everything starts to go downhill. It always has and always will.

Putin is these days the best example of Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard). =]

Though our president could still headbutt him in the balls.
To be honest, Duckie is about the same size as Sarkozy, but it's fun to make jokes of him

More lies.

We are a free nation. We do not kill people for their veiws, whatever it may be.

I don't have to worry and watch what I say, in fear of being shot.

Needless to say, you don't sound particularly critical of your government.

Georgia killed around 15 of our peacekeepers at the start. They started this war and delcared war on us.
You clearly have a different definition of peacekeeper to me. And, I expect, the rest of the world, too. Last I looked, peacekeepers don't invade another country or support secessionist movements in another country (and for the record, South Ossetia is a part of Georgia and legally recognised as such by Russia, among others). If you don't want your 'peacekeepers' killed, or to be at a state of war with another country, I would suggest that you don't send them into another country without their asking with the sole intention of controlling part of their territory.

Don't get me wrong. Georgia is not without fault either, not by a long shot. However, that does not give Russia dick-waving rights (which is what this is) in the Caucasus.

Because at the point where any nation allows one man the amount of power that Putin has, everything starts to go downhill. It always has and always will.

He was a great leader and had the people of Russia at heart. We live better lives because of him.

Aren't you essentially saying that the declaration of war was a reaction to the Russian armours turning up in Georgia?
No, I'm saying that the declaration of war was a reaction to the Georgians thinking they could win very quickly in South Ossetia, and the unilateral ceasefire was declared because of Russian armour arriving.

Uhu... allow me rephrase that.

"The Georgian government's army has been proven incapable of keeping the population safe, and people are now living in a warzone, but this isn't going to cause them to be pretty pissed at the government."

Seriously? I'd be pretty fucking livid as well as scared for my life.

If Mikhael manages to come out of this still in power? If he acts quick, he could come off better than he was before. Explanation below.


Aye well we're talking short term solidarity versus slightly longer-term regime change. It'll be worth it for Russia when the next presidentials come around.


I wouldn't know about that. It all depends on how it's spun to the Georgians. Hezbollah came out smelling like roses despite it's ineffectiveness at stopping the IDF.


No, I don't think so. Why not just wait for a couple of years?

A few years or a few weeks, I think the answer will come out in that time window.

He was a great leader and had the people of Russia at heart. We live better lives because of him.

Maybe you do, but I suppose a government troll would. On the other hand, what about the people who supported OTHER political parties? DO they live better lives not being able to have their voice heard because Putin decided their politics was wrong for the country?

The fact the FSB used radioactive poison in London might be considered an act of war.

It's said that to be at full strength again, Russia's armed forces would need until about 2015 to 2020. Maybe we should cut the Bears head off before then.

Putin will be the doom of the Russian people, undoing everything his ancestors did to make Russia a world power.

Needless to say, you don't sound particularly critical of your government.

My Goverment and it's people have done no worng in this matter.

No, I'm saying that the declaration of war was a reaction to the Georgians thinking they could win very quickly in South Ossetia, and the unilateral ceasefire was declared because of Russian armour arriving.

I'm not sure but didn't the declaration of war happen, after the Russians had engaged in war with the Georgians. Wouldn't it make more sense not to declare war on Russia before the Russians were even involved in the fighting?

Maybe you do, but I suppose a government troll would. On the other hand, what about the people who supported OTHER political parties? DO they live better lives not being able to have their voice heard because Putin decided their politics was wrong for the country?

These are lies, they are free to express their veiws.

My Goverment and it's people have done no worng in this matter.

You have done nothing wrong except invade a sovereign country for no other reason than the fact that their leader wanted to pursue a path for that country which differed from your country's idea of what that path should be.:confused:

As opposed to the US, which portrays its press as free but doesn't let news crews film coffins being brought back to the US from overseas, and whose most popular news source, Fox, is basically a Republican propaganda channel which appeals to the lowest denominator?

Well I'm sure the reasoning for the coffins is because during Vietnam the body count and the footage of coffins helped the Anti-War effort, which I agree is wrong. However with a father who spent 26 years in the military and two cousins in Iraq, and whose had friends loose family members over their; I don't think such things a dead American service men and women should be used to either support the war or to support the anti-war effort. They served their country and died so we can have the freedoms we enjoy, the military isn't responsible for the war, politicians are responsible.

Fox news, well if you perfer the CNN (The Communist News Network), be my guest. I watch FOX, CNN, and MSNBC so I try to get a well rounded opinion. If someone is stupid enough to take what one man says on the TV as fact, well then thats their problem.

No, and nor do you.

How could you possibly know?

I'm sure they did some terrible things, but I doubt that either of us will ever have any idea of what they really did.

Well I have a decent idea. I've read enough books on the KGB, STASI (East German Intel), CIA, MOSSAD, and SAVAK to sink a ship and most of the books were written by ex-operatives for those organizations. I've had a professor who was a US Intel Officer in the Middle East for the better part of 1972-1992. I have friend whose parents fled Iran in the wake of the Islamic Revolution and have some pretty good stories. And yes you can still never know everything that happened.

I'm not sure but didn't the declaration of war happen, after the Russians had engaged in war with the Georgians. Wouldn't it make more sense not to declare war on Russia before the Russians were even involved in the fighting?

Georgia started this war. We never decalred war on Georgia. This is not an all out war.

These are lies, they are free to express their veiws.

WRONG. To express a view contradictory to that of Putin means to put your name on a shortlist for assassination and have your "murder" never be properly investigated by the police.

You have done nothing wrong except invade a sovereign country for no other reason than the fact that their leader wanted to pursue a path for that country which differed from your country's idea of what that path should be.:confused:

Georgia can not be allowed to be free of punshiment of killing our people. If I was in charge I would overthrow the goverment of Georgia for the crimes it has done!

If Mikhael manages to come out of this still in power? If he acts quick, he could come off better than he was before. Explanation below.

I wouldn't know about that. It all depends on how it's spun to the Georgians. Hezbollah came out smelling like roses despite it's ineffectiveness at stopping the IDF.
Hezbollah came out smelling like roses precisely because it forced the IDF out of the country by winning a worldwide media coup after not really losing that many battles.

The Georgian government has looked extremely weak and has lost quite some men and materiél because of its very poorly-timed attack on South Ossetia. People are not rallying around Georgia as the victim, because not that many of its civilians have died, and it's being completely overpowered. There's being the lovable underdog, and there's just sucking.

Georgia started this war. We never decalred war on Georgia. This is not an all out war.

WRONG. You invaded their country and left them no other choice besides rolling over and being your bitch.

WRONG. To express a view contradictory to that of Putin means to put your name on a shortlist for assassination and have your "murder" never be properly investigated by the police.

I live in Russia, you do not.

Don't tell me we kill people who have differnt veiws than the goverment's veiws. That is a lie and every Russian would tell you the same. If it was ture you would not see me here supporting my goverment.

SovietKLM He was a great leader and had the people of Russia at heart. We live better lives because of him.

I think i know where your coming from, from the chaos of the fall, the guy Yeltsin,the Ogligarchs. The Putin guy managed to bring some "order and prosperity" in your sense. Although he has given us headaches.

Unless Your a Government Troll ^_^

Overall in the situation in Georgia this is going to be interesting. SO should be allowed to exist as thier own place but the sovi-Russian response is too harsh and overboard. "Sigh" Who knows what those Ruskies do these days.

Georgia can not be allowed to be free of punshiment of killing our people. If I was in charge I would overthrow the goverment of Georgia for the crimes it has done!

12 Russian Soldiers < 2000+ Civilians killed because of the Russian invasion

I think Russia should answer for its crimes as well.

Georgia can not be allowed to be free of punshiment of killing our people. If I was in charge I would overthrow the goverment of Georgia for the crimes it has done!

Georgia has not killed your people, they have responded to terrorist rocket attacks coming from South Ossetia which you "peacekeepers never managed to stop or even attempt to stop. There is NO moral high ground for Russia in this war. There isn't a genocide or ethnic cleansing, what you are seeing is Russia instigating seperatism and violence in other nations for its own self interest.

WRONG. You invaded their country and left them no other choice besides rolling over and being your bitch.

No you are worng! Georgia used military force in South Osstia and broke the cease fire while killing Russian peacekeepers there!

Georgia started this war. We never decalred war on Georgia. This is not an all out war.

But it is a war nonetheless. I have no way of knowing who started the war, but Georgia has declared a state of war or some such. To my knowledge this state was declared after the Russians took part in the fighting. So I would assume that Russians taking part in the fighting was the reason why Georgia declared war. :rolleyes:

I live in Russia, you do not.

Don't tell me we kill people who have differnt veiws than the goverment's veiws. That is a lie and every Russian would tell you the same. If it was ture you would not see me here supporting my goverment.

They don't kill people who support them. Just those who speak out. I believe Putin was also behind an apartment block bombing in Moscow. Makes sense.

Yeltsin should have had Putin bumped off. Would have saved us tons of trouble. In fact we should have done them over as WWII ended. We'd all be in a much nicer world.

12 Russian Soldiers < 2000+ Civilians killed because of the Russian invasion

I think Russia should answer for its crimes as well.

Georgia killed the 2000 civilians in South Ossetia. We are trying to stop the killing that the goverment of Georgia supports.

I live in Russia, you do not.

Don't tell me we kill people who have differnt veiws than the goverment's veiws. That is a lie and every Russian would tell you the same. If it was ture you would not see me here supporting my goverment.

Hey, I've got plenty of Russian friends who would be willing to contradict your statements in a heartbeat. Your Prime Minister kills reporters.

No you are worng! Georgia used military force in South Osstia and broke the cease fire while killing Russian peacekeepers there!

No my Russian friend you are wrong!!! South Osstia is not your country, Georgia can handle its own problems. Those Russian Peacekeepers, well they were helping the terrorists, so they weren't the peacekeepers everyone thought they were. They were war mongers.

Georgia killed the 2000 civilians in South Ossetia. We are trying to stop the killing that the goverment of Georgia supports.

Georgia hasn't done any such thing. It is Russia that has begun indiscriminately bombing civilian targets OUTSIDE of South Ossetia and bombing South Ossetian cities without regard to civilian casualties. Georgia was trying to secure its border against terroristic attacks and you decided you'd say "No, live in fear for my dick is bigger."

Georgia killed the 2000 civilians in South Ossetia. We are trying to stop the killing that the goverment of Georgia supports.

Killed because of withdrawing Georgian troops or indiscriminate Russian artillery fire, I think it was the later of the two.

Well I'm sure the reasoning for the coffins is because during Vietnam the body count and the footage of coffins helped the Anti-War effort, which I agree is wrong. However with a father who spent 26 years in the military and two cousins in Iraq, and whose had friends loose family members over their; I don't think such things a dead American service men and women should be used to either support the war or to support the anti-war effort. They served their country and died so we can have the freedoms we enjoy, the military isn't responsible for the war, politicians are responsible.
Still, it's a bit of a poor showing for a country with a supposedly free media. I'd agree that the companies involved ought really to leave those kinds of image out, but I'd rather they self-censored than were told what they can and can't broadcast.
Fox news, well if you perfer the CNN (The Communist News Network), be my guest.
CNN is not communist, although that did make me grin a lot :D

I watch Euronews, BBC News and occasionally Fox and France 24 to see what the rest of the world makes of things, although Fox News is more like a chat-show than real news to my eyes.
I watch FOX, CNN, and MSNBC so I try to get a well rounded opinion. If someone is stupid enough to take what one man says on the TV as fact, well then thats their problem.
Fair enough.
Well I have a decent idea.
Again, you might have some background, but getting a decent idea would really require being in those services.
I've read enough books on the KGB, STASI (East German Intel), CIA, MOSSAD, and SAVAK to sink a ship and most of the books were written by ex-operatives for those organizations.
Yes, those books are written by people who lied for a living, and have had their works censored, I'd not take them as too authoritative.
I've had a professor who was a US Intel Officer in the Middle East for the better part of 1972-1992. I have friend whose parents fled Iran in the wake of the Islamic Revolution and have some pretty good stories. And yes you can still never know everything that happened.
Aye I'd be careful with taking reports from people in that whole field ;)

No my Russian friend you are wrong!!! South Osstia is not your country, Georgia can handle its own problems. Those Russian Peacekeepers, well they were helping the terrorists, so they weren't the peacekeepers everyone thought they were. They were war mongers.

War mongers!? The people of South Ossetia are not terrorists. Our soilders were doing their job which was to try to keep the peace and yet you sound like our men are terrorists themselves and their lives to not matter!

Americans are the war mongers!

12 Russian Soldiers < 2000+ Civilians killed because of the Russian invasion
Actually, 2000+ civilians were killed in the invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia, not the response one. You've confused the figures.

Russia responded only after that.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)
Georgia claims around 100 civilian casualties[15]
Russia claims over 2,000 civilians in South Ossetia were killed[16]

Repeating - Georgia claims only 100 civilian casualties. There are not even official claims about 2,000 civilian losses on the Georgian side.


Poland is known for its pro-Georgian position, yet still:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80708,5571575,Tak_wlasnie_wyglada_wojna__Coraz_wiecej_ofiar.html

America trained Georgian troops. That doesn't make them responsible.

Hey, I've got plenty of Russian friends who would be willing to contradict your statements in a heartbeat. Your Prime Minister kills reporters.

I would like to speak to them and see why they would support statements that are lies.

War mongers!? The people of South Ossetia are not terrorists. Our soilders were doing their job which was to try to keep the peace and yet you sound like our men are terrorists themselves and their lives to not matter!

Americans are the war mongers!

Your men are not terrorists. They merely ASSIST the terrorists. Big difference. Also, that kinda qualifies as war mongering. Oh and there's a big difference here between America and Russia; we didn't bomb our own buildings before we decided to go to war. You on the other hand have FORCED this reaction out of the Georgian government.

I would like to speak to them and see why they would support statements that are lies.

I love this, if you don't support the ruling party your a lier and a traitor. Man the Republican Party would have it made if we operated under that policy. :)

((I hope everyone knows I'm being sarcastic))

Your men are not terrorists. They merely ASSIST the terrorists. Big difference. Also, that kinda qualifies as war mongering. Oh and there's a big difference here between America and Russia; we didn't bomb our own buildings before we decided to go to war. You on the other hand have FORCED this reaction out of the Georgian government.

we do not help terrorists.

We do not bomb or kill our own people and we did not start this conflict. It seems you only care about the deaths of people in this war that arn't Russian or non-Georgian.

I love this, if you don't support the ruling party your a lier and a traitor. Man the Republican Party would have it made if we operated under that policy. :)

((I hope everyone knows I'm being sarcastic))

We are not killers and dont kill people who have different veiws, that is how they are liers.

we do not help terrorists.

We do not bomb or kill our own people and we did not start this conflict. It seems you only care about the deaths of people in this war that arn't Russian or non-Georgian.


To be fair, your country has always been nothing but trouble since 1917. We don't want to care about you anymore.

If only the Bolsheviks had failed.....

We are not killers and dont kill people who have different veiws, that is how they are liers.

And you know this from personal experience? Oh wait don't answer that, if you answer incorrectly you might be poisoned.

[QUOTE=Soviet KLM Empire;13914118]We do not bomb or kill our own people and we did not start this conflict.[QUOTE]

Anyone smells brainwash ?

We do not bomb or kill our own people and we did not start this conflict.
Anyone smells brainwash ?
I smell trolling.

To be fair, your country has always been nothing but trouble since 1917. We don't want to care about you anymore.

If only the Bolsheviks had failed.....

We dont care about your people than.

I'm not an American.

I'm not an American.

Where are you from then?

We dont care about your people than.

I care about your people. The Russian story is pretty sad when you think about the Czars and Communism. I believe there are good men in Russia as there are in America. But your current government on the other hand, I don't believe their is much good in Putin's United Russia Government.

I care about your people. The Russian story is pretty sad when you think about the Czars and Communism. I believe there are good men in Russia as there are in America. But your current government on the other hand, I don't believe their is much good in Putin's United Russia Government.
Slavs. Slaves. You think the similarity is a coincidence?

I care about your people. The Russian story is pretty sad when you think about the Czars and Communism. I believe there are good men in Russia as there are in America. But your current government on the other hand, I don't believe their is much good in Putin's United Russia Government.

United Russia goverment has done great good for this country. Our people live better lives thanks to the party in Putin. Yet, all of you view Putin, as an evil man who cares nouthing of others along with anyone who supports him. He is a good men and did much good for all of us.

United Russia goverment has done great good for this country. Our people live better lives thanks to the party in Putin. Yet, all of you view Putin, as an evil man who cares nouthing of others along with anyone who supports him. He is a good men and did much good for all of us.

Windfall oil profits have had more to do with the partial economic success Russia has had recently, and even at that Russia is still facing the challenges of a demographic meltdown, a sluggish industrial sector, an awful climate and severe income disparity.

Poland is known for its pro-Georgian position, yet still:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80708,5571575,Tak_wlasnie_wyglada_wojna__Coraz_wiecej_ofiar.html

Lemme translate. This gonna be not a direct translation, but I'll use as much skill I can muster (italics mean "this is best I could do"; one could put all the names in them as well, as I'm not sure how Georgian is transcribed into English):


These photos rounded the world and headlines of news portals:

Photo: this woman, shortly after being photographed, was taken by her neighbours to a safe place


Here neighbours are helping a woman wounded in a bombing of Gori:


Russian sources: at least 2000 civilians dead in Cchinwali

Georgian Minister of Health Aleksandre Kvitashvili announced on Sunday, that "92 Georgians, including 40 civilians, died due to Russian-Georgian conflict".

"These are newest estimates" - he said.

According to various Russian sources in S. Osetia died from 1.500 to 2.000 people. Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili called on Saturday "obvious lie" news of 1.500 killed in S. Osetia, emphasizing, that among people, who died "were practically no civilians".

Photo: dead Russian soldiers in S. Osetia:


Georgian sources: about 100 casualties

A source from Georgian government informed on saturday the Reuter agence, that 129 soldiers and civilians were killed, and 748 wounded.

Aleksander (Kakha) Lomaya from National Safety Council of Georgia stated that number of fatalities rather didn't exceed 100.

Georgian president Mikheil Saakashvili informed that about 30 Georgian soldiers were killed due to air raids.

Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs' guy who speaks with the media on behalf of the other guy Shota Utiashvili said that two soldiers were killed due to an air raid on Waziani base, 25 km from Tbilisi.

Photo: Georgian weeps holding the corpse of his kin killed in bombardment of Gori:

Medical help for Russian soldier:

Bus with refugees from S. Osetia crosses Russian border:

Georgian woman mourns her neighbour killed in a bombardment:

Burning, destroyed buildings are a common sight in a war:


By the way, what I hear just now on the news is that Russians bombed a pipeline - the one which was planned to transport Azerbaijani oil to Europe without having to resort to Russian pipelines. Sounds almost too suspiciously like a "two birds with one stone".

.: edit :.
@Great Void: ya tryin' to piss me off? :P

Windfall oil profits have had more to do with the partial economic success Russia has had recently, and even at that Russia is still facing the challenges of a demographic meltdown, a sluggish industrial sector, an awful climate and severe income disparity.

No. We have been improving since 2000. Our industrial sector is growing and our country is one of the most tax friendly country. Order has been restored throughout the country and the 1990's chaos is over. Our middle class is booming and growing fast. Not to mention we are once again a superpower.

Awful climate? You get used to the cold and its not as bad as you think.

No. We have been improving since 2000. Our industrial sector is growing and our country is one of the most tax friendly country. Order has been restored throughout the country and the 1990's chaos is over. Our middle class is booming and growing fast. Not to mention we are once again a superpower.

To start off with, Russia is nowhere near superpower status. Her population is too small, reach no longer global, and economy still too weak. Russian armies can no longer threaten Western Europe with being overwhelmed by a conventional crush, the Navy is truly in shambles and military tactics clearly have not evolved all that efficiently.

Putin has managed to cover over the chaos of the nineties, but the underlying problems remain. There are still far too many people living well below the poverty line, and worse.

The tax policy is commendable, but it is underwritten by the benefits derived from the state oil industry.

Awful climate? You get used to the cold.

Not when it levies the economic costs that it does in Russia.

To start off with, Russia is nowhere near superpower status. Her population is too small, reach no longer global, and economy still too weak. Russian armies can no longer threaten Western Europe with being overwhelmed by a conventional crush, the Navy is truly in shambles and military tactics clearly have not evolved all that efficiently.

Putin has managed to cover over the chaos of the nineties, but the underlying problems remain. There are still far too many people living well below the poverty line, and worse.

The tax policy is commendable, but it is underwritten by the benefits derived from the state oil industry.



Not when it levies the economic costs that it does in Russia.


Our economy is of the strongest. Our military spending is 2nd only to America. We have one of the most advance military n the world. We ahve the fith largest army in th world in numbers. Our navy is not in shambles. We are infact a superpower even American officals admit it.

Our economy is of the strongest. Our military spending is 2nd only to America. We have one of the most advance military n the world. We ahve the fith largest army in th world in numbers. Our navy is not in shambles. We are infact a superpower even American officals admit it.

This link disagrees. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_federations_by_military_expenditures) You're seventh, not second.

I don't know if anyone else picked up on this yet, and I am too lazy to go back and look through the 50+ pages in this thread but evidently this video supposedly shows a dead American soldier from the conflict in Georgia:
http://www.life.ru/video/4991

There WERE (not sure if they still are around)1000 American military troops in Georgia last month helping the Georgian military train:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25684774/
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL1556589920080715

I also read somewhere (I'll have to find the link where), that the war games were to end as right around the same time as this conflict began. So American soldiers in the region, training a military until the date of the conflict beginning. Man does this seem like its getting worse. On top of all of that, our favorite Dick in office, keeps throwing out fighting words, while our Idiot in Chief is off playing around with women's volleyball in China. DAMN

So what type of effect do you think the American presence in the region has on the situation?

This link disagrees. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_federations_by_military_expenditures) You're seventh, not second.

lol wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military#Budget

You can't count on them. It sates 2nd under budget here.

Did someone just say Russia has the most advanced armed forces in the world?


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the French have better equipped forces than Russia. Do not confuse quantity for quality.

lol wiki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military#Budget

You can't count on them. It sates 2nd under budget here.
*Sigh*
By some estimates, overall Russian defence expenditure is now at the second highest in the world after the USA.

Did someone just say Russia has the most advanced armed forces in the world?


HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the French have better equipped forces than Russia. Do not confuse quantity for quality.

Yes it dose. Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bombers. We have missiles that cannot be shot down by the usa sheild deffence. We have our own missile deffence sheilds in Moscow. The French would not stand a chance.

Yes it dose. Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bombers. We have missiles that cannot be shot down by the usa sheild deffence. We have our own missile deffence sheilds in Moscow. The French would not stand a chance.


"Hey look! My penis is bigger than yours!"

"Nu uh! Mine is bigger!"


Seriously, that is what this "debate" is coming to.

*Sigh*

I was proving a point that wiki is not a good place to get information. Anyone can put up anything. If wanted to I could make us first.

We are not killers and dont kill people who have different veiws, that is how they are liers.

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) is a great example of what happens when Russians turn against the government. Radiation... not a nice way to die.

Yes it dose. Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bombers. We have missiles that cannot be shot down by the usa sheild deffence. We have our own missile deffence sheilds in Moscow. The French would not stand a chance.
Must...Not...Laugh...

Do they really tell you that there? *Snicker*

Our economy is of the strongest. Our military spending is 2nd only to America. We have one of the most advance military n the world. We ahve the fith largest army in th world in numbers. Our navy is not in shambles. We are infact a superpower even American officals admit it.

To begin with, Russia ranks seventh in expenditures, although fourth in size of military, largely because of conscription (conscripts make terrible soldiers, a fact we Americans found out back in the day).

The Russian carrier force has been dessicated by budget cuts, leaving the Kuznetsov as the only carrier in the fleet, alongside the fact that so long as the SOSUS-SURTASS IUSS remains in place (and Iceland remains in NATO hands) Russia cannot get out of the most Northern reaches of the Atlantic, even with Backfire bombers and Alfa/Akula.

This is compared to the fact that US Attack Submarines of the Los Angeles, Virginia and Seawolf class can virtually sit off of your coast, undetected. The US Navy boasts twelve full size carriers, and twelve "Amphibious Assault Ships", which are carriers in all but name. That's a superpower navy.

Finally, which US officials described Russia as a superpower?

I was proving a point that wiki is not a good place to get information. Anyone can put up anything. If wanted to I could make us first.

*Double sigh* Yet another misconception about wikipedia.... Do you know what those little numbers are for?

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) is a great example of what happens when Russians turn against the government. Radiation... not a nice way to die.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.

Ah, Methinks he doth protest to much. So tell me, did Alexander decide to slip himself some rare radioactive materials, hard to get ahold of? Or did the former KGB officers give him a little "Visit"?

Yes it dose. Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bombers. We have missiles that cannot be shot down by the usa sheild deffence. We have our own missile deffence sheilds in Moscow. The French would not stand a chance.

Long range bombers are no longer the be all and end all of warfare.

And Russian missiles have a bad track record when it comes to tracking and such. Why do you think Argentina bought it's anti ship missiles from France?

I'm pretty sure the US defence system would enjoy the practice.

Oh and those mighty Battlecruisers you built. They make good looking ship models and that's about it. I have one. I wouldn't want to go near the real thing considering how poorly made the nuclear reactor was.

The Russian carrier force has been dessicated by budget cuts, leaving the Kuznetsov as the only carrier in the fleet, alongside the fact that so long as the SOSUS-SURTASS IUSS remains in place (and Iceland remains in NATO hands) Russia cannot get out of the most Northern reaches of the Atlantic, even with Backfire bombers and Alfa/Akula.

Even the Kiev class ships were awful. That's why they exist as museum pieces in China. The Yak 38 VTOL fighter they carried is one of the worst things ever built. How they went from good planes to that is beyond me. Kuznetsov had to run home from an exercise in the Spring when it set on fire.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.

People in London don't just fall ill with Radiation poisoning. Considering how was a Putin critic and the Russians won't extradite the man believed responsible (a rich Russian man) to stand trial, that does reek of guilt.

Must...Not...Laugh...

Do they really tell you that there? *Snicker*

He's broadly accurate, France wouldn't stand a chance.

He fell sick, and died.

Ok, denying that Putin was behind it is fine. But are you seriously denying that he was poisoned? Because that would just be silly.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.

Oh yeah, he just happened to have radiation poisioning from the day he happened to meet this guy, its not like this is the only case in history it has ever happened, and its not like the russians are one of very few people in the world who could have had that particular isotope. If you read the article, it says that are un-officially 100% confident on who, how and when it was done, they only aren't offical because they are trying to get a trial against the Russian who did it.

He's broadly accurate, France wouldn't stand a chance.
I will admit that the EU would finally have a purpose if that ever happened. You get my drift?

I was proving a point that wiki is not a good place to get information. Anyone can put up anything. If wanted to I could make us first.

You could, but someone would come along within minutes and fix it. Do you see the little superscript numbers after many sentences? Those are links to the sources they are citing for their information. For example, the source that you linked to that says that some estimates place Russia second in military expenditure comes from the Conflict Studies Research Centre, a college at the Defense Academy of the United Kingdom (http://www.da.mod.uk/). A respectable source. Unless you were able to link to a respectable source indicating that Russia is first in military spending, your edit would be quickly and seamlessly corrected. If you continued to make surreptitious invalid edits, they would block your IP from making changes. It's a fallacy that "anyone can put up anything" on Wikipedia.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.


Then why did he go from looking like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/AlexanderLitvinenko.jpg) to this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/AlexanderLitvinenkoHospital.jpg) in such a startlingly short period of time? The only way that sort of stuff happens is radiation. It is in line with a dose of 600-1000 REM.

Then why did he go from looking like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/AlexanderLitvinenko.jpg) to this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/AlexanderLitvinenkoHospital.jpg) in such a startlingly short period of time?

Maybe old age just hit him really hard. :tongue:

Then why did he go from looking like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/AlexanderLitvinenko.jpg) to this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/AlexanderLitvinenkoHospital.jpg) in such a startlingly short period of time? The only way that sort of stuff happens is radiation. It is in line with a dose of 600-1000 REM.

Putin did not kill the man. The west just wants to balme him.

This guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko) is a great example of what happens when Russians turn against the government. Radiation... not a nice way to die.

How about the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya)?

Putin did not kill the man. The west just wants to balme him.

Putin didn't, but he's protecting the man who did.

The worlds best bomber is the Tu-160 outclassing the fastest and largest capacity bomber of the USA in both areas. Nobody else has bombers on that caliber. The Pak-FA project also is developing a more than competive aircraft to the F-22. Thus showing that Soviet KLM Empire's statement of "Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bomber" is mostly correct. In armored vehicles, Russia has almost 2x as the USA. The largest nuclear arsenal in the world of 15,000 nukes at the side of Russia does give it superpower status.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.

Yeah, he just so happened to die from massive radiation poisoning which began hours after a meeting with an ex-KGB agent. These things happen all the time. Just like Anna Politkovskaya who tragically slipped and fell on four bullets.

How about the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya)?

More lies, these people just want to take down Putin. I would bet my life that these are lies thta have no truth. He IS a good man.

Putin did not kill the man. The west just wants to balme him.

No, Putin did not kill him. Andrei Lugovoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Lugovoi) did. And Putin formally refused the United Kingdom's extradition request.

These things happen all the time. Just like Anna Politkovskaya who tragically slipped and fell on four bullets.

/quote of the day award.

Putin did not kill the man. The west just wants to balme him.

Uh-huh. How else did he get that much Polonium in his system?

No, Putin did not kill him. Andrei Lugovoi did. And Putin formally refused the United Kingdom's extradition request.

It's just like The Godfather!

Uh-huh. How else did he get that much Polonium in his system?

The point is that Putin did not have anything to do with his death.

More lies, these people just want to take down Putin. I would bet my life that these are lies thta have no truth. He IS a good man.

Yes, it's a global conspiracy against President Pu... I mean, Prime Minister Putin.

The worlds best bomber is the Tu-160 outclassing the fastest and largest capacity bomber of the USA in both areas. Nobody else has bombers on that caliber. The Pak-FA project also is developing a more than competive aircraft to the F-22. Thus showing that Soviet KLM Empire's statement of "Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bomber" is mostly correct. In armored vehicles, Russia has almost 2x as the USA. The largest nuclear arsenal in the world of 15,000 nukes at the side of Russia does give it superpower status.

The TU-160 is a copy of the B-1B on Steriods. The US also has more of them than Russia has.

And do you really think Russia can deploy all those vehicles at once?

The point is that Putin did not have anything to do with his death.
Whatever you say.:wink:

The TU-160 is a copy of the B-1B on Steriods. The US also has more of them than Russia has.

And do you really think Russia can deploy all those vehicles at once?

We can take on any military in the world.

Putin did nouthing to him. He fell sick, and died. The west lies and tried to tie it to Putin. There was no proof and do you know why?

Putin did not have him killed. That is a lie.


Christ, have you heard that??? HE FELL SICK AND DIED.

I'm beginning to feel sorry about your mental illness...reading your posts is not funny anymore...

The TU-160 is a copy of the B-1B on Steriods. The US also has more of them than Russia has.

And do you really think Russia can deploy all those vehicles at once?

And the F-22 is still the best air superiority aircraft.:D

The point is that Putin did not have anything to do with his death.

And what about Lugovoi?

We can take on any military in the world.

"Hey, Bush? Russia is planning to invade. No, I don't have any sources, but I'm a really trustworth person, and I like apple pie and baseball. You'll invade tomorrow? Good. Thank you Mr. President." *Hangs up phone*

Let's see about that.:D

We can take on any military in the world.

Can you take on the combined forces of the US, UK, EU & Turkey?

I think not. And if so much as one nuke tipped missiles gets fired in this direction, Russia as a country will cease to exist.

Russian armies can no longer threaten Western Europe with being overwhelmed by a conventional crush, the Navy is truly in shambles and military tactics clearly have not evolved all that efficiently.
Actually it's not all so simple. While the defense budget of Russia is only around that of major Western European nations, they also have less expenditures per unit of armament, mainly by paying their soldiers nothing and keeping them in wartime-grade living conditions.
So, while USAF has to spend $12 million a year just in direct personnel costs to maintain every plane (1 plane for 1 year), VVS gets off with... IDK, how much do they pay now, but should be around $600,000.
The civilian labor is also cheaper, so all parts are cheaper, and all maintenance expenses drop dramatically. And as for procurement expenses, there's the massive Soviet legacy. Most fighters only need avionics update to become modern, the same with ships.

---

As for tactics, the comparably very small Georgian personnel and civilian losses and large Russian aircraft losses (4 planes confirmed) are an indication that surgical strike tactics are being used. Almost all Georgian damaged buildings seem to have suffered from nearby explosions, rather than direct hits (no big holes in the walls), an indication of precision strikes.

BTW, while on the topic, to clarify on the BS about "strategic bombers" and "ballistic missiles" in some media. Tu-22M isn't a strategic bomber in the same sense as B-52. Rather, Tu-22M is a high-supersonic maritime strike aircraft that only carries a very small payload, as it's been designed to engage ships. So it's their precision strike aircraft, for the lack of stealth ones like F-117. Ballistic missiles would be utterly useless in the conflict, but Tu-22M armament is generally guided cruise missiles like Harpoon, which pretty much explains it; some writer added "ballistic" because it looks more dramatic, and he/she didn't know the difference anyway.
With the indication of modern tactics in use, seems they've learned a few things from Chechnya, particularly about how to do without tank rushes.


P.S. KLM, isn't it about time to stop off-topic dick comparison?

Can you take on the combined forces of the US, UK, EU & Turkey?

I think not. And if so much as one nuke tipped missiles gets fired in this direction, Russia as a country will cease to exist.

One on one- We would win.

Your country would cease to exist as well. No one would win when Nukes are fired.

The worlds best bomber is the Tu-160 outclassing the fastest and largest capacity bomber of the USA in both areas. Nobody else has bombers on that caliber. The Pak-FA project also is developing a more than competive aircraft to the F-22. Thus showing that Soviet KLM Empire's statement of "Our airforce can take on any othe airforce. We are the only country besides the USA that has a modern long-range bomber" is mostly correct. In armored vehicles, Russia has almost 2x as the USA. The largest nuclear arsenal in the world of 15,000 nukes at the side of Russia does give it superpower status.

I guess it's a damn shame that speed and payload are really not that important in a strategic bomber. The B-2 Outclasses the Blackjack merely for being a step away from totally invisible. In a world of stealth capabilities the Tu-160 is an anachronism.

As to the PAK-FA, it is primarily a reaction to the F-22, which is already in service in increasing quantities. I'd not worry overmuch about a plane that won't come out for another decade.

One on one- We would win.

Your country would cease to exist as well. No one would win when Nukes are fired.

One on one, no country has the ability to project into either Russia or the United States.

One on one- We would win.


Like I said, you can see the USA 'bout that.

One on one- We would win.

One on one - Russia v USA. - USA wins
Russia v Turkey - Russia wins
Russia v EU - EU wins.
Russia v UK - meh, probably Russia.

Your country would cease to exist as well. No one would win when Nukes are fired.

Well, duh.

Like I said, you can see the USA 'bout that.

The usa is weaker now because of Iraq. Their country is in rough times. If it was war right now with no nukes we would win.

He forgets that any war Russia started against the US will be against it's allies as well. NATO won't sit by. Russia should also be careful not to upset the Chinese. Not unless you want thousands of their troops swarming into the Russo-Pacific frontier.

One on one - Russia v USA. - USA wins
Russia v Turkey - Russia wins
Russia v EU - EU wins.
Russia v UK - meh, probably Russia.



Well, duh.

The EU is not a country but many countires. Also it is not a military allince.

NATO is.

The usa is weaker now because of Iraq. Their country is in rough times. If it was war right now with no nukes we would win.

To start off, since 2003, our military has lost roughly 4000 men in Iraq. For five years of fairly intense hostilities, that's a startlingly low death rate. To top that off, it's given American troops the sort of battlefield experience that, especially amongst junior officers, proves to be a difference maker in conflict.

Finally, our concept of "tough times" economically is roughly in line with the Russian concept of "best of times" economically.

One on one - Russia v USA. - USA wins
Russia v Turkey - Russia wins
Russia v EU - EU wins.
Russia v UK - meh, probably Russia.
Can we stop the dick comparison and ignore him and other people trying to start it?
Russia vs. EU is a very controversial topic to debate separately, and completely pointless as it would end up in complete obliteration of both EU and the European part of Russia. Thus, Asia wins, as Europe is no more anything but third world.


And about KLM:
http://homepage.mac.com/aurich/ars/locks/feed_trolls.gif

The usa is weaker now because of Iraq. Their country is in rough times. If it was war right now with no nukes we would win.

Weaker now because of Iraq. Really. Well, I'd bet money that if Russia declared war on us righ t now, we'd pull out of Iraq. Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, the problem with Iraq is not our casualties, but rather, lack of support at home (With good reason, but that's not the point). We've only lost, what, 4,000 in five years, out of an army of a million? That's hardly weakened.

Can we stop the dick comparison and ignore him and other people trying to start it?
After a thousand posts, I think the thread has evolved a little into something else. If it's a dick measuring contest then so be it, most will leave and laugh at it's absurdity.

Russia vs. EU is a very controversial topic to debate separately, and completely pointless as it would end up in complete obliteration of both EU and the European part of Russia.
It's the internet. Everything is completely pointless.

Thus, Asia wins, as Europe is no more anything but third world.
I'd say dustbowl, but that's semantics.

We're not even talking about Georgia anymore....

I'd say dustbowl, but that's semantics.
I meant both European Russia and EU will turn into third world even in the case of a non-nuclear war.

If it goes nuclear, the next capital of Russia will be Beijing, and the next capital of EU probably Tehran.


We're not even talking about Georgia anymore....
So let's get back to it.

Fresh start 1. A strip about the [most likely] history of the war:

http://www.freewebs.com/vault_10/RussiaOsetiaGeorgia.jpg

What, (.....)"launch").

Quick man. Russia needs you.

I meant both European Russia and EU will turn into third world even in the case of a non-nuclear war.

If it goes nuclear, the next capital of Russia will be Beijing, and the next capital of EU probably Tehran.



So let's get back to it.

Fresh start 1. A strip about the [most likely] history of the war:

http://www.freewebs.com/vault_10/RussiaOsetiaGeorgia.jpg

That sums it up pretty well so far xD

That sums it up pretty well so far xD

Well, sort of, only make the Bear 100 times larger than Georgia, and have it sit there beating up Georgia, and biting off his left leg and arm, and then you've got a fairly accurate picture.

Many of the people there seem to be pro-Russian, but their President wants to have them join NATO. Interesting, Russia is now bombing the heck out of them, so I don't see them joining NATO anytime soon. :P

It's pretty apparent that at this point, they're going to do regime change.

All they have to do now is go 35 miles down the road, capture or kill the current leader of Georgia, and hang him.

Since no one effectively stopped the last nation that engaged in regime change (note that most of the world has no balls to even implement sanctions unless pressed to it by a superpower), Putin can do as he pleases.

This is a good article as to why the West is hesitant to step in on behalf of Georgia.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/11/georgia.russia.oakley/index.html

A couple interesting points. First, it seems that most European leaders feel, at this point, that the evidence definitively points towards Georgia initiating hostilities. Obviously we're absent true evidence, but there must be a lot to sway the clear majority of opinions amongst European leadership. Second, it looks like Europe had tired of Georgian misbehaviour prior to this, and aren't very willing to stick their necks out for a leader that has become increasingly despotic as his tenure has progressed. Third, while it does appear that Europe is drawing a very distinct line in the sand before regime change in Georgia, at this point South Ossetia is more or less lost to Georgia.

It's pretty apparent that at this point, they're going to do regime change.

All they have to do now is go 35 miles down the road, capture or kill the current leader of Georgia, and hang him.

Since no one effectively stopped the last nation that engaged in regime change (note that most of the world has no balls to even implement sanctions unless pressed to it by a superpower), Putin can do as he pleases.

I wouldn't go as far as that. That would be... very very bad for the Ruskies.

All that said, alot seems to have changed since I was reading up last night on it. Russia is now *officially* invading Georgian land(Note, I said officially because before there were pretty much unconfimed reports), they are refusing any deal, whatsoever, for a ceasefire(not entirely new, but apparently the UN tried to get them to make a deal earlier today), and don't seem at all interested in staying in Ossetia.

The only reason I doubt that they want regime change is because, quite frankly, they could have done it. They have merely been strategically bombing areas of importance, and have kept the conflict rather minimal, really, if you consider the scope of what they are capable of. They are showing at least a *little* restraint in the matter. I think the best case scenario for what they are attempting is a treaty with Georgia that gives up the two Break away regions completely and fully. However, as shady as the Russkies are, I think that may be a tad to much to ask for, even. Last night they had at least a moral foot to stand on. Right now, they have the little toe they are trying to teeter on.

However, I wouldn't be trusting the Georgian government's words, either. Their administration has a past that is just as shady as any Russian politician, and let's not forget they kind of started the whole mess by breaking the ceasefire on thursday, and sending in a surprise attack into the Capital of South Ossetia, killing over 1000 citizens. So... yeah, they aren't the good guys either.

What we have here, my friends, are two countries telling different stories, and both have a long, storied past of being all-out liers.

I wouldn't go as far as that. That would be... very very bad for the Ruskies.

http://www.usunnewyork.usmission.gov/press_releases/20080810_219.html

Remarks by Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, U.S. Permanent Representative, on the situation in Georgia, in the Security Council Chambers, August 10, 2008

We’ve heard Ambassador Churkin’s polemic, which did not respond to the call we have made for an immediate cessation of hostilities and return to the status quo ante. He has acknowledged his government’s refusal to deal with the democratically elected president of Georgia. He has acknowledged that this situation is no longer about South Ossetia . He has attacked the UN Secretariat. He has made suspicious comparisons to other conflicts.

I want to focus however, on one point that Ambassador Churkin made. Ambassador Churkin referred to his minister’s phone conversation with Secretary of State Rice this morning. That conversation raises serious questions about Russian objectives.

In that conversation, Foreign Minister Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Rice that the democratically elected President of Georgia “must go”.

I quote again: “Saakashvili must go.”

This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line. I want to ask Ambassador Churkin, is your government’s objective regime change in Georgia, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia. Mr. President, Russia must affirm their aim is not to change the democratically elected government of Georgia and it accepts the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia .

Mr. President, Russia is threatening the territorial integrity of Georgia and this Council must act decisively to reaffirm the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia.

They've now split the country in two, invading along two points and seizing the main east-west highway and rail. They are 35 miles outside of the capital.

They can do anything they want now. Unless the leader flees, the Russians can probably have him within 72 hours.

http://www.usunnewyork.usmission.gov/press_releases/20080810_219.html


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm


Mr Saakashvili accused Russia of trying to overthrow his government and claimed Russia was now in control of the majority of Georgian lands.
Russian officials denied they were seeking a regime change, and reiterated that they were responding to Georgian attacks and protecting Russian citizens - who make up the majority of the population of South Ossetia.


Seems like the Russians are contradicting themselves a bit as of late. That said, I'm not going to trust either side on what they say. Neither side is trustworthy. But the Russians don't look good.


They've now split the country in two, invading along two points and seizing the main east-west highway and rail. They are 35 miles outside of the capital.

They can do anything they want now. Unless the leader flees, the Russians can probably have him within 72 hours.


Damn, I didn't think about that(I keep forgetting how small Georgia is.).

I can see that they *could* do it, however I'm not sure if such a move would be at all beneficial to them. What would be gained, exactly, versus what is lost?

Damn, I didn't think about that(I keep forgetting how small Georgia is.).

I can see that they *could* do it, however I'm not sure if such a move would be at all beneficial to them. What would be gained, exactly, versus what is lost?

1. Consolidation of the Caspian Area under Russian control - oil flows through there.
2. Restoration of the value of "fear" when they talk tough.
3. No one has the ability to put sanctions on the Russians - while you can do that to a Serbia or Iran, you can't really cut off your close supply of oil and gas to make a moral point.
4. You know the US can't interfere militarily, and other NATO nations don't have the balls to interfere militarily. Like I said, any military interference would provoke a large, long, and costly war. The US people are tired of war, and the Europeans have armies for no discernable reason (jobs program) because there aren't any Europeans who would even fight for their own country today.
5. Winning a war is good for public support back home. Hey, even the dictator needs some good poll numbers.
6. Don't forget the Russian pride thing - the end of the Cold War was a real humiliation, followed by massive demonstration of US power over the years. Well, the US kicked some ass and elbowed around the room - Putin wants to show that Russia can land some bombers in Cuba again, and can kick some country's ass as well.

5. Winning a war is good for public support back home. Hey, even the dictator needs some good poll numbers.


Dmitry Medvedev is not a dictator, he was elected as President. He dosen't need good poll numbers, hes already got good ones. If he was a dictator than he would care less about poll numbers.

I noticed. If Bush had been invading Georgia today, this thread would already be passing the 1000 post mark.



Seriously, who would want Atlanta? (SARCASM. Remember the magic word kiddies)

This, however, will teach smaller countries not to trust the perfidious US public.

Dmitry Medvedev is not a dictator, he was elected as President. He dosen't need good poll numbers, hes already got good ones. If he was a dictator than he would care less about poll numbers.

I'm trying to keep a straight face. I really am. 'Sides, Hitler had good poll numbers early on.

/Godwin, I know, I know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554925.stm Beeb reporter with Bildt in Tbilisi.

This, however, will teach smaller countries not to trust the perfidious US public.

Let's see - prior abandonment of the Kurds, the Vietnamese boat people (no, we'll quit on you little people), you would have thought people would know how it all turns out...

Let's see - prior abandonment of the Kurds, the Vietnamese boat people (no, we'll quit on you little people), you would have thought people would know how it all turns out...

Actually you're right. It probably won't teach anyone anything. There should be some level of shame somewhere though.

Actually you're right. It probably won't teach anyone anything. There should be some level of shame somewhere though.

Well, we did eventually come back to Iraq, but not really for the Kurds. They just lucked out this time.

I think that if we let the Russians do this with a few verbal insults, they'll let us do Iran. I almost think this is a signal - "hey, we're ok with what you did in Iraq, and we're just going to clean up some of our own business - wink wink - I hear you're having trouble with Iran..."

I think that if we let the Russians do this with a few verbal insults, they'll let us do Iran. I almost think this is a signal - "hey, we're ok with what you did in Iraq, and we're just going to clean up some of our own business - wink wink - I hear you're having trouble with Iran..."

I don't know if there is any point in doing Iran though. They do respond to diplomacy, just not our diplomacy.

I'd rather make an example of Saudi Arabia.

As opposed to the US, which portrays its press as free but doesn't let news crews film coffins being brought back to the US from overseas, and whose most popular news source, Fox, is basically a Republican propaganda channel which appeals to the lowest denominator?

Be fair, that's a far cry from offing reporters.

How about the assassination of Anna Politkovskaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Politkovskaya)?

She murdered herself. They just carried the bullet a while. >>

I don't know if there is any point in doing Iran though. They do respond to diplomacy, just not our diplomacy.

I'd rather make an example of Saudi Arabia.

That, too. If you'll notice, the current "diplomacy" is going nowhere with Iran, and even the French agree on that, which is something.

The usa is weaker now because of Iraq. Their country is in rough times. If it was war right now with no nukes we would win.

Define "win." Both countries are completely impenetrable by ground forces.

Russia and US both have size, and a great deal of both's population can put bullets into soldiers' heads.

Define "win." Both countries are completely impenetrable by ground forces.

Russia and US both have size, and a great deal of both's population can put bullets into soldiers' heads.
Really? I thought Russia had VERY strict gun laws. :confused:

Really? I thought Russia had VERY strict gun laws. :confused:

Not so much, I know a lot of people who own SKS and shotguns, along with the obligatory Mosin Nagant. They also sell "Tigr" rifles, which are basically Dragunov Sniper Rifles without the bayonet lug and the barrel is shortened by cm.





People in the country often have AKM's though, especially in the Urals :P

Italy says it's ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union got involved. However, it said it would not support an anti-Russian coalition. Not sure what this means.

Italy?? This doesn't sound good..


For them, at least.

Italy says it's ready to send troops to South Ossetia. However, it said it would not support an anti-Russian coalition. Not sure what this means.

I suspect what Italy is willing to do is to serve as peacekeepers, get Russia to withdraw from all Georgian territory, and interpose themselves in between everybody in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It's the sort of thing that I'd have proposed.

Italy?? This doesn't sound good..


For them, at least.


Italy's navy is very powerful.

Italy's navy is very powerful.

It has one more carrier than Russia ;)

And a bunch of modern ships that are well maintained.

An Italo-Turkish Naval coalition could steam into the Black Sea and remove Russia's presence there in days. Nice to think about, but it won't happen.

http://www.nma-fallout.com/fallout2/official_site/files_files/f2box300.jpg

;)

:eek: Well now that's just plain pessimistic, and inaccurate!

The usa is weaker now because of Iraq. Their country is in rough times. If it was war right now with no nukes we would win.

You know, instead of wondering about how your country would PWN and wishing to punish Georgia you could see this demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuW34sSU3U) of friendship between two opposing athletes and begin to wish for peace yourself. Last I heard, peace is a good thing.

Italy says it's ready to send troops to South Ossetia if the European Union got involved. However, it said it would not support an anti-Russian coalition. Not sure what this means.

This is unexpected. I didn't picture the Italians as overly concerned with the caucasus. Not that the EU would move a finger for Georgia, though.

An Italo-Turkish Naval coalition could steam into the Black Sea and remove Russia's presence there in days. Nice to think about, but it won't happen.

Dude...its Italy.

Italy.

Italy.

Turkey could just mine the entrance to the Black Sea and lock the BSF in there if war broke out. No need to waste time sinking them.

Not so much, I know a lot of people who own SKS and shotguns, along with the obligatory Mosin Nagant. They also sell "Tigr" rifles, which are basically Dragunov Sniper Rifles without the bayonet lug and the barrel is shortened by cm.

People in the country often have AKM's though, especially in the Urals :P

That sounds a lot like where I grew up.

Not so much, I know a lot of people who own SKS and shotguns, along with the obligatory Mosin Nagant. They also sell "Tigr" rifles, which are basically Dragunov Sniper Rifles without the bayonet lug and the barrel is shortened by cm.

Yikes...





People in the country often have AKM's though, especially in the Urals :P

So, uh, they're what we American's call "rednecks" and "hillbillies", then.

I'm glad to see that they are an international commonality.

Turkey could just mine the entrance to the Black Sea and lock the BSF in there if war broke out. No need to waste time sinking them.

Why mine? That would ruin the straits. Bust out shore artillery and combined NATO Mediterranean Naval forces, Greece, Italy and Turkey would prove a might challenge for The Black Sea Fleet.

Oh, and of course an American CVBG, one of those. We have a lot of those.

So, uh, they're what we American's call "rednecks" and "hillbillies", then.

I'm glad to see that they are an international commonality.

Rednecks and hillbillies though, have a reputation for being armed with shotguns, and at best, rifles. The AKM is a few steps higher in terms of potential output.

Why mine? That would ruin the straits. Bust out shore artillery and combined NATO Mediterranean Naval forces, Greece, Italy and Turkey would prove a might challenge for The Black Sea Fleet.

Oh, and of course an American CVBG, one of those. We have a lot of those.

Does anyone even have shore artillery anymore?

Does anyone even have shore artillery anymore?

I think they use missile batteries for coastal defense these days.

Does anyone even have shore artillery anymore?

In straits it is quite useful. Just take some regular artillery, give it AP rounds and set it up, give it heavy camo, and give it air cover. Tadaa! Fleet-rape!

In straits it is quite useful. Just take some regular artillery, give it AP rounds and set it up, give it heavy camo, and give it air cover. Tadaa! Fleet-rape!

Camo isn't so effective anymore these days when you have counter artillery radar. Shoot and scoot is the new tactic if you want the artillery to survive.

To be honest, the Ukrainian or Turkish Airforce could take on the Black Sea Fleet without even naval support . The Black Sea Fleet may be good, but MiGs or F-16s with dumb bombs could destroy it.

Is there any reason whatsoever that Turkey would even think about getting involved?

Camo isn't so effective anymore these days when you have counter artillery radar. Shoot and scoot is the new tactic if you want the artillery to survive.

Using guns in straits and narrow waterways, though is primarily an ambush tactic. You have to wait patiently until you can hit the ships with a massive barrage, and then split. That's why the camo is important.

To be honest, the Ukrainian or Turkish Airforce could take on the Black Sea Fleet without even naval support . The Black Sea Fleet may be good, but MiGs or F-16s with iron bombs could destroy it.

Turkey probably could, but Ukraine? Does anyone even know when they last used their aircraft?

Turkey probably could, but Ukraine? Does anyone even know when they last used their aircraft?


I've seen numerous photos of their MiGs in flight. They also have a sizeable SU-24 and SU-25 fleet, and a good naval aviation branch. They can do good, just as Turkey's F-4 IIs and F-16s could dumb bomb the Black Sea Fleet.

I did post a nice list of their air assets a few pages back. I reckon they could do it if they went in low under the rader.

Hum, who thinks that Russian troops are rushing through Tiblisi in several days?

Hum, who thinks that Russian troops are rushing through Tiblisi in several days?

Me. Putin* will be having tea in Tiblisi by Friday.

*perhaps not Putin

Me. Putin* will be having tea in Tiblisi by Friday.

*perhaps not Putin

I wonder how they'll kill Saakashvili...

Maybe his tea will have certain things from a Nuclear reactor in it.....

Russia doesn't have the Death penalty however. That and killing the President would really be asking for a slap. A hard one.

Maybe his tea will have certain things from a Nuclear reactor in it.....

Russia doesn't have the Death penalty however. That and killing the President would really be asking for a slap. A hard one.

Does Russia really care any more?

And while they may not have "the death penalty" any more, Litvinenko and Politkovskaya would seem to show that they've got something else...

Something tells me we see Russian shells bearing down on Tiblisi sometime tomorrow.

If it means fighting a war which won't do them any good, yes. Putin should be very careful. If they executed Shakashvelli, then we could turn round and execute any Russian spies we have caught for example.

Maybe his tea will have certain things from a Nuclear reactor in it.....

Russia doesn't have the Death penalty however. That and killing the President would really be asking for a slap. A hard one.

Does the Military have capital punishment? They could try him a la Guantanamo before a military tribunal.

Does the Military have capital punishment? They could try him a la Guantanamo before a military tribunal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Russia

If it means fighting a war which won't do them any good, yes. Putin should be very careful. If they executed Shakashvelli, then we could turn round and execute any Russian spies we have caught for example.

It is crucial that we do not deviate from the rule of law, and espionage is not a capital offense. We should not make exceptions just to make reprisals.

Heck, we never instituted such reprisals during the Cold War, even when the spies killed as a result of Philby's betrayals, and there were a lot of good people killed because of Kim Philby.

Well, we did eventually come back to Iraq, but not really for the Kurds. They just lucked out this time.

I think that if we let the Russians do this with a few verbal insults, they'll let us do Iran. I almost think this is a signal - "hey, we're ok with what you did in Iraq, and we're just going to clean up some of our own business - wink wink - I hear you're having trouble with Iran..."

Oh, of course. No country anywhere ever does anything except to send signals to the US. The whole world is a little puppet theatre for the enjoyment of "the US." :rolleyes:

What's insane about that is that you are pro "invade Iran."

So Russia wants the US to invade or bomb Iran? It doesn't seem a bit weird to you that Russia would want the US to do what you believe is in the US's best interests?

If what you say here is true, and that Russia is "sending a signal" to the US, then I'm going to trust Russia's judgement over yours. A major commitment in Iran would be absolutely and direly against US interests.

Oh, of course. No country anywhere ever does anything except to send signals to the US. The whole world is a little puppet theatre for the enjoyment of "the US." :rolleyes:

Your quite ignorant sarcasm aside, this is most assuredly a message being sent to the US and NATO. We "independenced" Kosovo against strenuous objections from Russia, and they were left looking impotent as they stood by and were unable to stop it from happening. This situation is them doing the exact same thing to NATO. They are sending the message that they too can exert their influence in ways that NATO is incapable of preventing. They are flexing their muscles, so to speak.

Sdaeriji, I have not caught up all the posts in the thread. I'm still back where you were arguing the matter of Russia issuing passports to South Ossetians.

I'm not sure if this was ever said, but it's relevant to that. Article 13 of the Georgian constitution lays out Exclusive Citizenship. If residents accept Russian citizenship, they cease to be Georgian citizens unless that is granted individually.

Your quite ignorant sarcasm aside, this is most assuredly a message being sent to the US and NATO. We "independenced" Kosovo against strenuous objections from Russia, and they were left looking impotent as they stood by and were unable to stop it from happening. This situation is them doing the exact same thing to NATO. They are sending the message that they too can exert their influence in ways that NATO is incapable of preventing. They are flexing their muscles, so to speak.

I don't deny that there is a message. No action happens without having meaning for the analysts.

When the US president beats the war drum and stirs up patriotism with concocted stories of threats to US citizens, I'm sure you correctly identify the target of that as the US electorate.

When the Russian leadership does that, it couldn't possibly be a message to the Russian voters? Regaining national pride for the "humiliation that was Kosovo" couldn't be anything about their leaders trying to stay in power?

What's laughable about Hotwife's assertion, and even yours, is that this war is nothing but a message to the US. Classic US parochialism!

Sdaeriji, I have not caught up all the posts in the thread. I'm still back where you were arguing the matter of Russia issuing passports to South Ossetians.

I'm not sure if this was ever said, but it's relevant to that. Article 13 of the Georgian constitution lays out Exclusive Citizenship. If residents accept Russian citizenship, they cease to be Georgian citizens unless that is granted individually.

Thanks, I was looking for an answer to that. Soviet whatever even said that they would retain their Georgian citizenship. I'm not an expert and I couldn't find a solid answer anywhere that Google would take me.

I don't deny that there is a message. No action happens without having meaning for the analysts.

When the US president beats the war drum and stirs up patriotism with concocted stories of threats to US citizens, I'm sure you correctly identify the target of that as the US electorate.

When the Russian leadership does that, it couldn't possibly be a message to the Russian voters? Regaining national pride for the "humiliation that was Kosovo" couldn't be anything about their leaders trying to stay in power?

What's laughable about Hotwife's assertion, and even yours, is that this war is nothing but a message to the US. Classic US parochialism!

It's certainly not JUST a message to NATO. It's a message to Georgia (remember who you're dealing with), it's a message to its other neighbors (don't forget what's on the other side of our border), it's a message to its allies (we are actually capable of protecting your interests). I don't suspect it's anything for the people of Russia, as they seem to largely support their government.

Sdaeriji, first place I tried was the site of the Georgian parliament:

parliament.ge (http://www.parliament.ge/) ... Oooops!

Found the Constitution here: pdf (http://www.mfa.gov.ge/files/37_57_318646_constitutiont.pdf)

EDIT: Andaluciae (following post) Agreed. It does their cause more harm than good. Why I linked to it!

Sdaeriji, first place I tried was the site of the Georgian parliament:

parliament.ge (http://www.parliament.ge/) ... Oooops!

Found the Constitution here: pdf (http://www.mfa.gov.ge/files/37_57_318646_constitutiont.pdf)

How juvenile...

...haven't they ever heard of Godwin?

It's certainly not JUST a message to NATO. It's a message to Georgia (remember who you're dealing with), it's a message to its other neighbors (don't forget what's on the other side of our border), it's a message to its allies (we are actually capable of protecting your interests). I don't suspect it's anything for the people of Russia, as they seem to largely support their government.

Then fine. I'll mock US democracy all I like. The US government does whatever it reckons, and USians all "largely support their government."

Sdaeriji, first place I tried was the site of the Georgian parliament:

parliament.ge (http://www.parliament.ge/) ... Oooops!

Found the Constitution here: pdf (http://www.mfa.gov.ge/files/37_57_318646_constitutiont.pdf)

Lol, yeah. That's where I checked too.

I'll leave the adults to it now while I catch up the thread.

Cheap point at Hotwife's expense. What a giggle; but I should take war more seriously.

The thing thats damn frusterating in this war is the utter lack of concrete information.

The Abkhazians have begun operations against Georgian forces, says BBC


oh shi- (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555359.stm)

*checks Yootopia's thread history*

"It's a bad dream-a for Kadima"?

Genuinely witty. *nods*

"It's a bad dream-a for Kadima!" had me laughing all night long as I tried to go to sleep. It was just so right, man.

Does anyone even have shore artillery anymore?
Actually some nations still do, Sweeden, Norway, and Greece still have them.
The first two have a good network of such defenses.


Turkey could just mine the entrance to the Black Sea and lock the BSF in there if war broke out. No need to waste time sinking them.
Most of the Black Sea is against Russia right now.

Greece has placed itself Pro-Georgia, and has demanded Russia stop.

Turkey has placed itself pro-Georgia and even donated them Electricity.

The Black Sea is looking pretty Hostile for the Russians.

The thing thats damn frusterating in this war is the utter lack of concrete information.
True, it's about as sketchy as Katrina.

Yeah, it takes a "great" man to order people to be assassinated by radioactive poison in a public place.

...as oppossed to things like wanting to disguise an aircraft as a UN plane and fly provactively in order to create a causus belli, wanting to bomb a news agency and launching an unjustified war thats killed tens of thousands.

The Abkhazians have begun operations against Georgian forces, says BBC


oh shi- (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555359.stm)

Abkhazia seems to be a little more prosperous (and bigger) than South Ossetia, but still no prize. I'm guessing the rebels there have just seen a chance, with Georgia in trouble, to strike a better deal for themselves, rather than "joining Russia in beating up Georgia."

The more I read, the more I'm coming around to the view that Russia is just being a bastard and doesn't want either place to extend their territory.

Though Abkhazia does has half of Georgia's Black Sea coastline. Hmm.

(Given up on reading the thread, btw. Got about half of it.)

The thing thats damn frusterating in this war is the utter lack of concrete information.

That's annoying, yes.

Both the US and China probably have satellite surveillance, they'll release whatever supports their own chosen course of action. (We might get a balanced view if those were opposing, but more likely they'll both want to make Russia look bad.)

Umm, bloggers in Georgia, then? :(

Umm, bloggers in Georgia, then? :(



All the blogs I've read [and understood, Georgian is moonspeak to me, and I only know English fluently aside from my native tongue] are either;

-BAAWWWing about the West not saving them,

-general dislike of Russia's actions

-Or are Ossetian's raging about what Georgia allegedly did to start this.

Apparently Russia's ordered an end to military operations, I'll try and get a source.

We just ended the Georgia operations, so I guess it's over for now..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm got that source I was looking for.

We just ended the Georgia operations, so I guess it's over for now..

Wait, wait, wait. Weren't there Russian ground troops already inside Georgia? So does this mean the ground troops will pull back to Ossetian territory?

I'd say Georgia is screwed.
USA is in no situation to help
them out. And Russia sees NATO
no longer a threat anymore...

Looks like having Sarkozy in Moscow, and that the Beeb is reporting Bush's speech on the matter as having had a significant impact would bespeak far better of Western diplomatic strength than I had thought.

We just ended the Georgia operations, so I guess it's over for now..

However if Georgia's military becomes aggressive or shows any resistance in Abkhazian or South Ossetia, than our military will be forced to strike back.

As for Mikheil Saakashvili he should step down or be forced out of power and answer to his crimes.

However if Georgia's military becomes aggressive or shows any resistance in Abkhazian or South Ossetia, than our military will be forced to strike back.

As for Mikheil Saakashvili he should step down or be forced out of power and answer to his crimes.

Hey, remember before when you were going on about Georgia bombing a hospital? You did the same. Both Georgian and Russia are as bad as each other, whatever crimes Georgia has commited, you have done the same or worse.

However if Georgia's military becomes aggressive or shows any resistance in Abkhazian or South Ossetia, than our military will be forced to strike back.

Georgian forces in the Kodori Gorge are still fighting the rebels, and will likely continue to. The Abkhazian conflict was indisputably reinitiated by Abkhazian rebels, not the Georgian forces, who had far more on their plates at that point in time to pick a fight there.

As for Mikheil Saakashvili he should step down or be forced out of power and answer to his crimes.

The only crime I've seen any evidence of being committed is the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation. There is no international right to invade another state to "protect one's citizens", and there never has been.

Georgian forces in the Kodori Gorge are still fighting the rebels, and will likely continue to. The Abkhazian conflict was indisputably reinitiated by Abkhazian rebels, not the Georgian forces, who had far more on their plates at that point in time to pick a fight there.



The only crime I've seen any evidence of being committed is the Russian invasion of a sovereign nation. There is no international right to invade another state to "protect one's citizens", and there never has been.

We warned Georgia if military action was taken, he would be forced to protect the people of South Ossetia. Saakashvili has guitly of Enthic Cleansing. He started this war and should pay for his crimes.

Hey, remember before when you were going on about Georgia bombing a hospital? You did the same. Both Georgian and Russia are as bad as each other, whatever crimes Georgia has commited, you have done the same or worse.

I would like to see a source for that.

I would like to see a source for that.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm) - Witnesses told the BBC that several people were killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town (of Gori) , which is 10 miles (15km) from the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm) - Witnesses told the BBC that several people were killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town (of Gori) , which is 10 miles (15km) from the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

Its not like our forces would target a hospital. It may of been hit by mistake or Georgian forces using it has a human sheild and sadly got hit.

Its not like our forces would target a hospital. It may of been hit by mistake or Georgian forces using it has a human sheild and sadly got hit.

It may have escaped your notice, but there are no Georgian forces in Gori, and also, I do remember you denying exactly the same excuse of an accident when you started moaning about Georgia hitting a hospital. At least the Georgians had the excuse that it was in the middle of a war zone, you can't even say that.

We warned Georgia if military action was taken, he would be forced to protect the people of South Ossetia.

Perhaps a neutral party would be better suited to the task, the Italians have already volunteered, and we could probably get the Dutch, whose military is excellent when it comes to peacekeeping operations, to pitch in as well.

I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest German troops, though. That might ruffle your feathers, a bit.


Saakashvili has guitly of Enthic Cleansing. He started this war and should pay for his crimes.

You keep using those words. I do not think they means what you think they mean.

It may have escaped your notice, but there are no Georgian forces in Gori, and also, I do remember you denying exactly the same excuse of an accident when you started moaning about Georgia hitting a hospital. At least the Georgians had the excuse that it was in the middle of a war zone, you can't even say that.

Gori was a war zone, there were military targets there that must be taken out, and have been. We have made sure that Georgia's aggressive military can no longer harm the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazian. We have also put an end to the enthic cleasning.

Gori was a war zone, there were military targets there that must be taken out, and have been. We have made sure that Georgia's aggressive military can no longer harm the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazian. We have also put an end to the enthic cleasning.

All of the news sources in Gori indicate that there are no further military targets in Gori, because the Georgian military is no longer in Gori. All the Russian military is doing now is blasting hospitals and cameramen.

Perhaps a neutral party would be better suited to the task, the Italians have already volunteered, and we could probably get the Dutch, whose military is excellent when it comes to peacekeeping operations, to pitch in as well.

I wouldn't be so bold as to suggest German troops, though. That might ruffle your feathers, a bit.




You keep using those words. I do not think they means what you think they mean.

Russian troops should be the ones to protected Russian citizens.

I am sorry but I don't know what you mean in the 2nd part.

Its not like our forces would target a hospital. It may of been hit by mistake or Georgian forces using it has a human sheild and sadly got hit.

Its not like the Georgians would target a hospital. It may of been hit by mistake or Russian forces using it has a human sheild and sadly got hit.

Gori was a war zone, there were military targets there that must be taken out, and have been. We have made sure that Georgia's aggressive military can no longer harm the people of South Ossetia or Abkhazian. We have also put an end to the enthic cleasning.
So a hospital is a military target, as is an apartment block? Also, Gori was made a war zone by Russia.

All of the news sources in Gori indicate that there are no further military targets in Gori, because the Georgian military is no longer in Gori. All the Russian military is doing now is blasting hospitals and cameramen.

I would not trust all the news reports your getting from Gori. Most if not all are Pro-Georgian or pro-western media.