NationStates Jolt Archive

LMAO. you sir/ma'am win an internet.

Not really. Apparently the pointer switched to Vienna :( Only half an hour ago it was over hte US State of Georgia. Which made the joke especially funny. Ah well.

Not really. Apparently the pointer switched to Vienna :( Only half an hour ago it was over hte US State of Georgia. Ah well.

I sent the link to a friend at the same time they fixed it, bastards.

I sent the link to a friend at the same time they fixed it, bastards.

Despair not! For I, in my state of INFINITE GENIUS have taken a screenshot.

Here it is. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Namellar/GeorgiaMap.png)

I hope my Hobobucket account does not die...

If (and probably when) Georgia concedes South Ossetia's independence, then we'll likely see a move by Abkhazia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia), another Russian-backed secessionist province of Georgia, to assert greater independence from Georgia.

It would depend if the US were to enter PRC territory, with the intent to occupy, or if the US were to merely keep its fleet in the straight.

Define PRC territory. Does the island of Taiwan count as such? Also, define occupy. If US troops were on Taiwan at the behest of the government there, is that occupation?

Despair not! For I, in my state of INFINITE GENIUS have taken a screenshot.

Here it is. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Namellar/GeorgiaMap.png)

I hope my Hobobucket account does not die...

That would really suck if Georgia was invaded.

That would really suck if Georgia was invaded.

There is nothing in GA. It wouldn't suck THAT much.

That would really suck if Georgia was invaded.

It's not like it hasn't happened before. We invaded them rather thoroughly in the 1860s.

The first moment I heard about this, I wondered in my infinite Southern Heritage how many Rednecks would start to walk out their houses and homes, with guns in hand, and look around for "Communist Bastards". I swear, the radio station I was listening to that reported this said that "For the record, it isn't the STATE of Georgia, it's the Pre-Soviet Republic of Georgia."

I laughed my ass off at the thought. Then mourned for the fallen.

It's not like it hasn't happened before. We invaded them rather thoroughly in the 1860s.

It's ok when we invade Georgia. When someone else invades Georgia, we have a problem. It's like an abusive relationship. With fruit.

Russia is more or less stretching its military muscle to see just what it can do without the world going berserk. So far, everyone seems to be turning the other cheek. But that could change real easily, in my opinion.

As for my personal two cents on the possibility of the Pre-Soviet Republic of Georgia somehow gaining enough power to protect its military interests, I'd liken that to the day that the sun dies. It's going to happen, but not anytime soon.

Russia: Batshit insane, imperialist and bloodthirsty?

And Proud of It.

Thats what the said in 1914....
Nobody could annihilate your entire country in half an hour in 1914 ;)

It'll end up like the Israel/Lebanon conflict of a couple of years back. Russia bombs the shit out of Tblisi and wanders off again, with this essentially going back to the status quo ante bellum.

Nobody could annihilate your entire country in half an hour in 1914 ;)

It'll end up like the Israel/Lebanon conflict of a couple of years back. Russia bombs the shit out of Tblisi and wanders off again, with this essentially going back to the status quo ante bellum.

Thats not the point. My point was that big conflicts come from small ones. WW1 began between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia, and spread to consume an entire generation, destroy France, Germany, Russia, and many others.

Thats not the point. My point was that big conflicts come from small ones. WW1 began between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia, and spread to consume an entire generation, destroy France, Germany, Russia, and many others.
Among many, many other factors.

About the whole 'Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand started WWI' theory, nobody's that popular...

Thats not the point. My point was that big conflicts come from small ones. WW1 began between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Serbia, and spread to consume an entire generation, destroy France, Germany, Russia, and many others.
Uhu. Those countries all came back to world powers within fifteen years of the end of that war. Your country gets absowtfpwned via nuclear bombardment and maybe a few survivors might scrape by, and in a couple of thousand years, you may have proper countries back again.

This kind of context matters a lot, especially when nobody really cares about Georgia all that much anyway. It's the Belgium of the region. It's there to stop the Russians/Turkish from invading each other by land is a mishmash of different cultures and peoples. Those kind of countries are always lame.

Plus most of the worlds' diplomats are on holiday at the moment, and letting the Russians bomb Georgia for their cheek for a fortnight before the thing gets 'resolved' is pretty much what would happen anyway without UN intervention.

Among many, many other factors.

About the whole 'Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand started WWI' theory, nobody's that popular...

I love Robert Newman.

Plus most of the worlds' diplomats are on holiday at the moment, and letting the Russians bomb Georgia for their cheek for a fortnight before the thing gets 'resolved' is pretty much what would happen anyway without UN intervention.
Yeah, the timing is incredibly important.

There's some nice pics of Putin, Bush and other governmental figures huridly discussing something (obviously Georgia) last night at the Olympic opening ceremony.

I love Robert Newman.
:wink:

About the whole 'Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand started WWI' theory, nobody's that popular...

I am.

Really tho' this is going to all be a bit flash in the pan. (Scary though it is).

It's not like it hasn't happened before. We invaded them rather thoroughly in the 1860s.

Thank you, even though you didn't do it for us. ~ The South's black people.

There is nothing in GA. It wouldn't suck THAT much.

Transportation hub, Largest city between Dallas and Washington D.C., olympic host city, Home of Coke, Center of the Rap Music world, Nuclear Sub Base, Ranger Training Facilities, Gold deposits.........

anyone here feel the UN/NATO just want to stay out of this one? That's probably why they didn't say anything for the first day or so

anyone here feel the UN/NATO just want to stay out of this one? That's probably why they didn't say anything for the first day or so

Actually, they did. Immediately after it happened. They called for an immediate cease fire.

Define PRC territory. Does the island of Taiwan count as such? Also, define occupy. If US troops were on Taiwan at the behest of the government there, is that occupation?

Yes, it does, as Taiwan is not recognized by anyone as independent. Not even the US.

US troops wouldn't dare be sent to Taiwan. China wouldn't allow it, and would see that as a provocation to war.

holy shit, last night the Georgian shelled a refugee convoy

holy shit, last night the Georgian shelled a refugee convoy
Have a source for that?

Have a source for that?

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28698/video


it's in English, so I don't think there should be any language barriers

holy shit, last night the Georgian shelled a refugee convoy

remember when the iraqis kicked babies out of incubators in kuwait city?

your source is Russian propaganda at best

So who here thinks that the Russian soldiers there are actually 'peacekeepers'?

Damn, the Russians have sent in the VDV - their second best special forces. Georgians are screwed.

Now a couple of things:

1. If Russia was the one who provoked it, why not wait until the Olympics are over and every group is in the Caucasian Region. As it is, the Russians are rushing in artillery from Moscow - not exactly preparation. When they attacked Groznyy, everything was in the Caucasian Region, ready to go, not in Moscow's Reserve.

2. The Separatists would not have started anything without asking the Russians first, and Russians didn't start it, see #1.

3. Therefore the initial shots were fired up Georgians. The casualties also tell the story. In the 2nd Chechen War, Russians moved out the civvies, before they began attacking. Yet there are over 1,000 civillian casualties, over 500 of them Russian Citizens! Again, in reference to the 2nd Chechen War, Putin does not plan his initial strikes that poorly.

4. What most likely happened, was that Saakashvili thought that if Putin was in China, the Russians wouldn't attack, without getting help from their Chinese allies, who are too pre-occupied with the Olympics at the moment. He was wrong. Now he's counting on the US aid.

The legal question is this: does country A have a right to invade country B, if country B kills 500, or more, of her citizens? I'd say fuck yeah! If Mexico killed 500 Americans, I'd say invade them.

As for NATO, check out how poorly America's Allies are fighting in Afghanistan, where it counts. Also, this is war, and should any mainland European Country intervene, Putin will cut back their oil supplies. And Medvedev is president in day to day affairs, I think Putin still calls the shots in case of an emergency.

1. they would likely be hoping the world will be focused on the olympics and not this 'minor' conflict

... Putin is not the president any more

Hum, I thought the ROC was recognized by the Vatican and several other handfuls of nations...

Anyhow, I was wondering how the Ukraine and Turkey would factor into this conflict. Any ideas? Some say that they're going to diplomatically back Georgia's sovreignty, while i've heard some say they'll be neutral. Varying biased news media reports are just grand.

... Putin is not the president any more

Officially. Isn't he supposed to be 'Prime Minister' soon?

1. they would likely be hoping the world will be focused on the olympics and not this 'minor' conflict

... Putin is not the president any more

Russia knows that Georgia isn't a minor conflict. Stop trying to make Russian Government look like the Brezhnev idiots, they're no longer idiots. Again, look to the 2nd Chechen War, and explain to me the 1,000 casualties should Russia attack? Usually when there's a ton of civillian casualties on one side, side A, and very little on the other, side B, it's pretty damn obvious who's been attacking at least to those who can look beyond their hatred of Russia and towards common sense.

Also, United Russia goes by experience; when Putin was president, Medvedev wrote and implemented Russia's Economic Policy. It's crystal clear that Putin has more experience in such issues then Medvedev, and that he'll be, most likely, handling it.

Officially. Isn't he supposed to be 'Prime Minister' soon?





Yeah, he is the Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.... Assumed the office earlier this year.

Hum, I thought the ROC was recognized by the Vatican and several other handfuls of nations...

Anyhow, I was wondering how the Ukraine and Turkey would factor into this conflict. Any ideas? Some say that they're going to diplomatically back Georgia's sovreignty, while i've heard some say they'll be neutral. Varying biased news media reports are just grand.

Ukraine's Stance: Denounce Russia and act like Switzerland.

Turkey's Stance: I don't know, but I'd guess similar to Ukraine's.

Ukraine's Stance: Denounce Russia and act like Switzerland.

Turkey's Stance: I don't know, but I'd guess similar to Ukraine's.

I would suspect Turkey will say whatever they believe will make them look the best in the eyes of the EU, especially if it involves getting to denounce Russia in the process.

you seem to be failing to understand there are three factions fighting: rebels(which favor russia), russia and georgia


its not minor, though the russians might like it to be portrayed that way

Currently 30,000 people left Southern Ossetia. Roughly 1,000-1,500 have been killed. 1,500-3,000 have been evacuated, because they're wounded. Half of Ossetia's population left the war zone.

Now look me in the eyes and tell me Russia started it.

quote the post where i said it, you are the one who said it

Yeah, he is the Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.... Assumed the office earlier this year.

And wtf is the difference between 'President' and 'Prime Minister'...

Among many, many other factors.

About the whole 'Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand started WWI' theory, nobody's that popular...

Indeed. The Great Powers had been slugging it out in one way or another over the past century. A large number of alliances had built up because of that. All that was needed was a spark, and it was likely to go off at any time since Austra-Hungary was pretty much disintegrating from within.

Ferdinand was a catalyst, not a cause.

As for this conflict, it's such a completely different world situation that it would be utterly ridiculous to compare the two, really. World War III would have to be started by something massive, more like Taiwan and the PRC coming to a head rather than this little thing over Georgia.

Though of course it's not little to the Georgians and the Ossetians, nor should we belittle it. We should simply recognize its proper place in world affairs.

you seem to be failing to understand there are three factions fighting: rebels(which favor russia), russia and georgia


its not minor, though the russians might like it to be portrayed that way

You seem to fail to understand, that over half of the rebel populace have been impacted and were either killed, evacuated or left the war zone. If Putin, Russia, or Rebels planned this assault, this would not be happening. Duh! Again, look to the 2nd Chechen War, to find out that Russia doesn't plan its assaults this poorly.

Also, any news on those MiG-25s and Sukhoi-25s Georgia has? Some part of me suspects that Georgia's AF is grounded as of now. I doubt they've launched any air-air retaliation, and that all the claimed shootdowns of SU-24s are just by AA. I even think these shootdowns don't have much truth to them.

You seem to fail to understand, that over half of the rebel populace have been impacted and were either killed, evacuated or left the war zone. If Putin, Russia, or Rebels planned this assault, this would not be happening. Duh! Again, look to the 2nd Chechen War, to find out that Russia doesn't plan its assaults this poorly.

Er, did you ever read about the first war and the massive casualties that were caused in that war?

Also, we can't be sure that these numbers are accurate until third-parties arrive.

Who said anything about planning it. I was simply reinforcing the idea that the Russians are escalating the conflict for their own purposes.

I'm getting my news from Interfax. http://www.interfax.ru/news.asp?id=26080

You are welcome to use a translator, the numbers translate pretty much the same.

Who said anything about planning it. I was simply reinforcing the idea that they are escalating the conflict for their own purposes.

If you kill over 500 Russian Civvies, you're going to get hit. If you are too moronic to understand that, then you really shouldn't be leading your country.

the Civilians Are Georgian

Er, did you ever read about the first war and the massive casualties that were caused in that war?

Also, we can't be sure that these numbers are accurate until third-parties arrive.

In WWII you are welcome to study Zhukov's Plans vs. Stalin's Plans and see which ones worked better. Most of the operation depends on the planner. Putin planned the 2nd Chechen War along with Stepashin. Yeltsin and his cabinet of durnkards planned the 1st Chechen War. If an attack was to be made on Georgia, it'd be Putin, not Yeltsin planning it, duh!

If you kill over 500 Russian Civvies, you're going to get hit.
They're not Russians, ethically. They are also not Georgians, ethically. However, they are Georgian citizens in Georgian sovereign territory, not Russian territory.

the Civilians Are Georgian

The Civillians refer to themselves as Ossetian, and over half HELD RUSSIAN PASSPORTS! Are you that desperate that you have to lie in bold font now?

HELD RUSSIAN PASSPORTS!

Which were given to them, according to a news story by yahoo.com.

They're not Russians, ethically. They are also not Georgians, ethically. However, they are Georgian citizens in Georgian sovereign territory, not Russian territory.

Wrong! They are Russian citizens on Georgian territorry, if you wish to use the legal term.

So if Mexico killed off 500 Americans living, or traveling to Mexico, you're saying the US should just late it go?

the civilians in Ossetia are Georgian
Ossetia declared independence in the 90s
no one, not even Russia, recognized them
they are Georgian


this is the same if texas declared its independence and noone recognized it
and then when the texans fought with the american national guard, the mexican army came over to keep the peace
the people living in texas would still be americans

Can we say anything for certain at this point?

I hope it won't be too bad though. And that it'll end soon.

Which were given to them, according to a news story by yahoo.com.

Which were given to them and which they accepted, therefore making them Russian citizens. Duh! If a country gives you a passport and you accept it, aren't you its citizen? And Russia CONSTANTLY warned of retaliation against the attacks on their citizens. They've been citizens of Russia for quite a while. And it's been well known, it's been on CNN, Fox News, NBC, not just Yahoo News.

Also, any news on those 9 MiG-25s Georgia has? Some part of me suspects that Georgia's AF is grounded as of now. I doubt they've launched any air-air retaliation, and that all the claimed shootdowns of SU-24s are just by AA. I even think these shootdowns don't have much truth to them.

My guess would be that they are hiding them for now.

The Civillians refer to themselves as Ossetian

You just said this. Now you say they're Russians. Make up your mind.

Currently 30,000 people left Southern Ossetia. Roughly 1,000-1,500 have been killed. 1,500-3,000 have been evacuated, because they're wounded. Half of Ossetia's population left the war zone.

Now look me in the eyes and tell me Russia started it.

I don't believe anyone here is stating that Russia initiated the hostilities. But, they are escalating what was, in theory, an internal Georgian affair, for their own purposes. Whether those purposes are altruistic (protecting their own citizens inside South Ossetia) or more sinister is debatable.

Fine than I will make this clear for your little brain.

First off we are NOT willing of an ethnic group like Germany did. Also we arnt even trying to take Georgia back as part of our country. We are JUST stopping Georgia from taking a SMALL part of it that voted 95% to break away from the rest of the country.

oh and plz list your reasons how we are like nazi germany who killed millions.

Stalin's purges killed more than Hitler's final solution ever did.

the civilians in Ossetia are Georgian
Ossetia declared independence in the 90s
no one, not even Russia, recognized them
they are Georgian

this is the same if texas declared its independence and noone recognized it
and then when the texans fought with the national guard, the mexican army came over to keep the peace

Russia gave them Russian Passports, thus recognizing them as Russian Citizens. Please stop lying, it's getting boring.

Also, they view themselves as Ossetian. Notice how they're fleeing to Russia, not to Georgia, and the civillians usally flee in the opposite side of the attacker. I.e. in the Civil War the Confederates didn't flee towards Boston.

learn what lying means before you accuse me of it

You just said this. Now you say they're Russians. Make up your mind.

They refer to themselves as Ossetian, but hold Russian Passports, which makes them Russian Citizens of Ossetian origin. Same with an American citizen of Cheerokee origin.

By your logic, we can say that all people in Iran are now our citizens, and any attack on them means you get invaded. Doesn't make sense, does it? You really can't magically say people are you're citizens, and then get all pissy about it when something happens.

learn what lying means before you accuse me of it

You claimed that Russia didn't recognize the people it gave passports to as their citizens. You are either lying, blind, or mad.

By your logic, we can say that all people in Iran are now our citizens, and any attack on them means you get invaded. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Of course, you realize the flaw in your analogy is that the people of South Ossetia were not unilaterally given passports that were unwanted.

By your logic, we can say that all people in Iran are now our citizens, and any attack on them means you get invaded. Doesn't make sense, does it?

I'm sorry, are we giving Iranians American passports? Do Iranians hold Russian passports?

And if you want to attack Iran, well that just told me everything about you I needed to know.

You claimed that Russia didn't recognize the people it gave passports to as their citizens. You are either lying, blind, or mad.

Did not claim that, stop trying to twist my words, you are bad at it.

If Russia recognized the Ossetian's independence, why would they give them RUSSIAN passports? They wouldn't. They would expect the new government to issue Ossetian Passports to the Ossetian people.

Of course, you realize the flaw in your analogy is that the people of South Ossetia were not unilaterally given passports that were unwanted.

It doesn't mean that all of them wanted them, either. Russia could have been forcing them onto to them for their own ends.

I'm sorry, are we giving Iranians American passports? Do Iranians hold Russian passports?

And if you want to attack Iran, well that just told me everything about you I needed to know.

Never did I say I wanted to attack Iran. I was using them as the most ironic example I could think of given the recent tension.

If Russia recognized the Ossetian's independence, why would they give them RUSSIAN passports? They wouldn't. They would expect the new government to issue Ossetian Passports

Sums it up.

It doesn't mean that all of them wanted them, either. Russia could have been forcing them onto to them for their own ends.

That would be a difficult accusation to prove, and the fact that only a small percentage of the South Ossetian population supposedly has the passports does much to disprove your theory.

Really, I think this thing is just going to calm down the next day or today with Georgia cedeing South Ossetia. They can only repulse an invasion for a couple weeks.

Anyways an update: what a surpise, the VDV kicked Georgian ass. Had it not been for the massive (over 1,000) civillian casualties, one could call the battle of Tskhinvali a Russian-Separatist victory.

That would be a difficult accusation to prove, and the fact that only a small percentage of the South Ossetian population supposedly has the passports does much to disprove your theory.

In that respect, you're correct, and they likely did not do that. But I wasn't aware that "50%" was a "small percentage".

Anyways an update: what a surpise, the VDV kicked Georgian ass. Had it not been for the massive (over 1,000) civillian casualties, one could call the battle of Tskhinvali a Russian-Separatist victory.

Just wait for the counter-attack before calling it a victory. I mean, it will be repulsed with Russia having a tank division there as "peacekeepers", but hey.

In that respect, you're correct, and they likely did not do that. But I wasn't aware that "50%" was a "small percentage".

I haven't seen anything approaching a 50% figure, but even still, were it forced upon the population by Russia, it would be a figure much closer to 100%.

Did not claim that, stop trying to twist my words, you are bad at it.

If Russia recognized the Ossetian's independence, why would they give them RUSSIAN passports? They wouldn't. They would expect the new government to issue Ossetian Passports to the Ossetian people.

Ok, once again, Russia did not recognize Ossetian independence, but they did give Russian Passports to certain Ossetians, thus these Ossetians became Russian citizens living in Georgia. You claimed that they were still Georgian, according to Russia, which I pointed out was wrong. A Russian Citizen is not a Georgian, and is under protection of Russia. What do you think the US would do if Mexicans in Mexico, opened up on US citizens in the area?

I haven't seen anything approaching a 50% figure, but even still, were it forced upon the population by Russia, it would be a figure much closer to 100%.

I think the 50% figure was brought up by Shofercia. I also have not seen such a high percentage.

Really, I think this thing is just going to calm down the next day or today with Georgia cedeing South Ossetia. They can only repulse an invasion for a couple weeks.

Georgian self-preservation instincts aside, say for a moment that Georgia does not concede defeat? Do we think Russia is seriously committed to a full-scale invasion and occupation of South Ossetia, or of all of Georgia? What exactly is their acceptable level of involvement?

What do you think the US would do if Mexicans in Mexico, opened up on US citizens in the area?

And what if those same U.S. citizens were 'separatists' trying to make Baja California a U.S. state? Would they still support them?

Just wait for the counter-attack before calling it a victory. I mean, it will be repulsed with Russia having a tank division there as "peacekeepers", but hey.

Ok, look up VDV. Then look up VDV division. Then tell me if Georgia has anything that would oppose this. The smart thing for Georgia to do is to cede South Ossetia, and end the hostilities, before Russia escalates it even further, which may or may not be correct. The point I'm making is that Russia has a right to defend her citizens and that Georgia launched the initial attack.

Georgian self-preservation instincts aside, say for a moment that Georgia does not concede defeat? Do we think Russia is seriously committed to a full-scale invasion and occupation of South Ossetia, or of all of Georgia? What exactly is their acceptable level of involvement?

I'm pretty sure they will not invade Georgia, that equals international suicide. I think this is enough for them to prove that they have muscle to the world.

Did not claim that, stop trying to twist my words, you are bad at it.

If Russia recognized the Ossetian's independence, why would they give them RUSSIAN passports? They wouldn't. They would expect the new government to issue Ossetian Passports to the Ossetian people.

Not exactly. What's being recognized is the Ossetian independence from Georgia, to be annexed into the Russian Federation.

Which sadly does not have the ring to it that Soviet Union did. :(

Ok, once again, Russia did not recognize Ossetian independence, but they did give Russian Passports to certain Ossetians, thus these Ossetians became Russian citizens living in Georgia. You claimed that they were still Georgian, according to Russia, which I pointed out was wrong. A Russian Citizen is not a Georgian, and is under protection of Russia. What do you think the US would do if Mexicans in Mexico, opened up on US citizens in the area?

Does Russia not recognize dual citizenship? If a South Ossetian living in South Ossetia, which was internationally recognized as part of the Republic of Georgia, is granted a Russian passport, do they cease being a Georgian citizen? Does a Russian passport bequeath Russian citizenship?

Ok, look up VDV. Then look up VDV division. Then tell me if Georgia has anything that would oppose this. The smart thing for Georgia to do is to cede South Ossetia, and end the hostilities, before Russia escalates it even further, which may or may not be correct. The point I'm making is that Russia has a right to defend her citizens and that Georgia launched the initial attack.

I know what VDV is. They're not supermen. But then again, they ain't a peasant with a pitchfork. I'm pretty sure Georgia has enough issues with T-72's and T-80's crawling into her ass.

And what if those same U.S. citizens were 'separatists' trying to make Baja California a U.S. state? Would they still support them?

If they only used legal means, yes I would. And South Ossetians weren't the ones shooting up Georgian Civvies. Again, look up civillian casualties, over 1,000 on side A, very little on side B, geez I wonder who's attacking, can you make an educated guess?

Ok, once again, Russia did not recognize Ossetian independence, but they did give Russian Passports to certain Ossetians, thus these Ossetians became Russian citizens living in Georgia. You claimed that they were still Georgian, according to Russia, which I pointed out was wrong. A Russian Citizen is not a Georgian, and is under protection of Russia. What do you think the US would do if Mexicans in Mexico, opened up on US citizens in the area?
If you want to attack my arguments go after the substance of what I actually said instead of pulling things out of thin air.
I never said "they were still Georgian, according to Russia" or anything to that effect.
Nice try.

Really, Georgia can be doing better than it is in the air, IMO. Not great aircraft and weapons, but they could have knocked down a couple Russian planes by now.


Combat Aircraft Capable of Air-Air Combat:


15 MiG-25 Interceptors With Air-Air Weapons of Air- Air Missiles

35 SU-25s Attack Aircraft With Air-Air Weapons Consisting of one Cannon, Aphid Air-Air Missiles

9 SU-24 Attack Aircraft with Air-Air Weapons Consisting of one Cannon, Aphid Air-Air Missiles

If they only used legal means, yes I would. And South Ossetians weren't the ones shooting up Georgian Civvies. Again, look up civillian casualties, over 1,000 on side A, very little on side B, geez I wonder who's attacking, can you make an educated guess?

We have no substantiated reports of civilian deaths. Kokoity says there have been 1400 deaths; Tblisi disagrees. Whom you choose to believe shows your personal bias in this affair. Until there are independent verifications of casualties, we should not be throwing numbers around like this.

"Does Russia not recognize dual citizenship? If a South Ossetian living in South Ossetia, which was internationally recognized as part of the Republic of Georgia, is granted a Russian passport, do they cease being a Georgian citizen? Does a Russian passport bequeath Russian citizenship?"

Russia does recognize dual citizenship. But due to restrictions that one will incur moving in Russia with a Georgian passport (due to Saakshvili's role in Beslan) it's more beneficial to have a single Russian passport, then a dual Russian - Georgian passport. Russian -American passport on the other hand works perfectly well, provided that you're not of draft age (yup Russia has a draft, no I don't support that particular policy).

"Does Russia not recognize dual citizenship? If a South Ossetian living in South Ossetia, which was internationally recognized as part of the Republic of Georgia, is granted a Russian passport, do they cease being a Georgian citizen? Does a Russian passport bequeath Russian citizenship?"

Russia does recognize dual citizenship. But due to restrictions that one will incur moving in Russia with a Georgian passport (due to Saakshvili's role in Beslan) it's more beneficial to have a single Russian passport, then a dual Russian - Georgian passport. Russian -American passport on the other hand works perfectly well, provided that you're not of draft age (yup Russia has a draft, no I don't support that particular policy).

Then I ask again: Did accepting Russian-only passports result in renouncing Georgian citizenship?

"We have no substantiated reports of civilian deaths. Kokoity says there have been 1400 deaths; Tblisi disagrees. Whom you choose to believe shows your personal bias in this affair. Until there are independent verifications of casualties, we should not be throwing numbers around like this."

I've said the deaths range from 1,000 to 1,500. If I am wrong, I will be more then pleased, because I hate civvie deaths in wars. I just tend to go for more liberal death estimates, hoping to be proven wrong later. My main point is that Georgia launched the first attack, resulting in civillian deaths, some of whom were Russian Citizens, so Russia had a right to move in and protect her citizens. The numbers are estimates, as I honestly don't know.

If they only used legal means, yes I would. And South Ossetians weren't the ones shooting up Georgian Civvies. Again, look up civillian casualties, over 1,000 on side A, very little on side B, geez I wonder who's attacking, can you make an educated guess?

Casulties don't decide who is attacking. What is happening is that Ossetia is the main war ground between Russia and Georgia - of course the most people are going to die there because that is where the fighting is occuring.

The first move was made by the Ossetian rebels by increasing the violence in their attacks, which the Georgians responded to, which the Russians then also responded too. No nation here is a real aggresor, as none of this was planned, it is the result of small scale things that have pointless escalated to large proportions.

"We have no substantiated reports of civilian deaths. Kokoity says there have been 1400 deaths; Tblisi disagrees. Whom you choose to believe shows your personal bias in this affair. Until there are independent verifications of casualties, we should not be throwing numbers around like this."

I've said the deaths range from 1,000 to 1,500. If I am wrong, I will be more then pleased, because I hate civvie deaths in wars. I just tend to go for more liberal death estimates, hoping to be proven wrong later. My main point is that Georgia launched the first attack, resulting in civillian deaths, some of whom were Russian Citizens, so Russia had a right to move in and protect her citizens. The numbers are estimates, as I honestly don't know.

And my point is that the only person, the only single source making any statements on civilian deaths is the leader of South Ossetia, who you should be able to admit MIGHT have a vested interest in inflating the numbers to make his cause more sympathetic.

"I know what VDV is. They're not supermen. But then again, they ain't a peasant with a pitchfork. I'm pretty sure Georgia has enough issues with T-72's and T-80's crawling into her ass."

My point was simply that VDV is better then anything Georgia has at the moment, even if you count American Marines, the 1,000 stationed in Tbilisi.

Russian Army terminology (not just for you but for most people reading this, if you know great!)

Raw Infantry - Green, just out of training camp (not used in Georgia)
Combat Infantry - troops that have seen combat
Spetznatz - like US Marines who've been in combat
VDV - like US Rangers
Special Rocket Forces - you don't want to know (not used in Georgia, at least not openly)

The first move was made by the Ossetian rebels by increasing the violence in their attacks, which the Georgians responded to, which the Russians then also responded too. No nation here is a real aggresor, as none of this was planned, it is the result of small scale things that have pointless escalated to large proportions.

It is even debatable who shot at whom first, as both sides point the finger at the opposing side and it is far to chaotic to reconstruct events.

"Casulties don't decide who is attacking. What is happening is that Ossetia is the main war ground between Russia and Georgia - of course the most people are going to die there because that is where the fighting is occuring.

The first move was made by the Ossetian rebels by increasing the violence in their attacks, which the Georgians responded to, which the Russians then also responded too. No nation here is a real aggresor, as none of this was planned, it is the result of small scale things that have pointless escalated to large proportions."

How do you know if the rebels started it? Had they started it, don't you think they might have move their civillians out of the area first? Also, how do they start by attacking their own city?!

My point was simply that VDV is better then anything Georgia has at the moment, even if you count American Marines, the 1,000 stationed in Tbilisi.

Given your stance that Russia is justified in this invasion due to the harm befalling her citizens in Georgia, would you support American involvement to defend her citizens living in Georgia who may come to harm due to the Russian bombing of Georgian infrastructure? Because it stands to reason, given your previously asserted claims, that you believe that American involvement would be justified as well.

"Then I ask again: Did accepting Russian-only passports result in renouncing Georgian citizenship?"

After 2004, it did, de facto.

Casulties don't decide who is attacking. What is happening is that Ossetia is the main war ground between Russia and Georgia - of course the most people are going to die there because that is where the fighting is occuring.

The first move was made by the Ossetian rebels by increasing the violence in their attacks, which the Georgians responded to, which the Russians then also responded too. No nation here is a real aggresor, as none of this was planned, it is the result of small scale things that have pointless escalated to large proportions.

How dare you pollute this thread with your rational, well-thought out commentary. ;)

"Given your stance that Russia is justified in this invasion due to the harm befalling her citizens in Georgia, would you support American involvement to defend her citizens living in Georgia who may come to harm due to the Russian bombing of Georgian infrastructure? Because it stands to reason, given your previously asserted claims, that you believe that American involvement would be justified as well."

If Russia kills American citizens, (not active military but citizens, like in the US embassy) yes this would justify US involvement.

Also, how do they start by attacking their own city?!

They start by attacking Georgian positions inside "their own city."

"How dare you pollute this thread with your rational, well-thought out commentary. "

Blaming one side for starting the attacks without giving any proof, and he clearly does blame Ossetian Rebels, is well though out commentary?!

"They start by attacking Georgian positions inside "their own city.""

There were no Georgian positions in the city for quite some time.

"Then I ask again: Did accepting Russian-only passports result in renouncing Georgian citizenship?"

After 2004, it did, de facto.

De facto is irrelevant, as this conflict proves. De jure, were those Russian-passport-holding South Ossetians no longer citizens of the Republic of Georgia, simply from the act of accepting the Russian passport?

"De facto is irrelevant, as this conflict proves. De jure, were those Russian-passport-holding South Ossetians no longer citizens of the Republic of Georgia, simply from the act of accepting the Russian passport?"

No. But if they wanted to travel in Russia, it would be much easier to do so without a Georgian passport. Some renounced it others didn't. The point is that some Russian citizens were killed and Russia retaliated. Whether this'll go beyond Ossetia and Abkhazia is upto Russia, since they have the initiative at the moment. I don't believe that Russia has a right to conquer Georgia base on this incident.

Anyways, I'm going to sleep. G'Night.

"They start by attacking Georgian positions inside "their own city.""

There were no Georgian positions in the city for quite some time.

I know. And that's not where the fighting began. South Ossetian forces didn't initiate hostilities by attacking "their own city." According to Georgian reports, they attacked a Georgian post on the border. According to South Ossetian reports, Georgian forces attacked from said post. So, what I'm trying to get at here is that we don't know the truth. And your blind acceptance of any information one side puts out shows your personal bias in this situation.

According to CNN, the [my] Air Force is also bombing the Georgian capital O.o

"How dare you pollute this thread with your rational, well-thought out commentary. "

Blaming one side for starting the attacks without giving any proof, and he clearly does blame Ossetian Rebels, is well though out commentary?!

I think you may need to re-read my post, i'm not blaming anyone. This war wasn't intended by anyone. This conflict has been going on for years, but recently the Ossetian rebels have become frustrated with how long it is taking to become independant and about various other things, causing them to try and speed up the process by attacking more Georgians, and the Georgians have in turn increased attacks against Ossetian rebels to try and prevent themselves being attacked. It should have been like that for a while, then the attacks would have decreased after a few days as everyone gets bored, but unfortunately this time things have escalated out of control and Russia have decided to get involved.

If you start saying that I am blaming the Georgians, then I can always point out that the Georgians issued a ceasefire and wanted to talk about this rather than fight, which the rebels then decided to ignore and instead increased the frequency of their attacks. Thus provoking war.

If you start saying that I am blaming the Ossetians, then I can always point out that the Georgians did invade south Ossetia, and capture the majority of the country. Thus provoking war.

I figure that those two are good examples, you can't say who started this war because it isn't a one sided invasion - its a combination of both sides anger towards each other coming to a head and ending up in conflict.

Georgia has one chance, one only hope to not be conquered. And that is to conduct a false flag operation against the American forces stationed there. This would trigger the NATO mutal defense clause. If any NATO country is attacked, all of NATO must send millitary aid. This would be bad, because it would lead to millions of pointless deaths, destroy Europe again, and possibely, get my ass drafted ina few years if it isn't finished.

Georgia has one chance, one only hope to not be conquered. And that is to conduct a false flag operation against the American forces stationed there. This would trigger the NATO mutal defense clause. If any NATO country is attacked, all of NATO must send millitary aid. This would be bad, because it would lead to millions of pointless deaths, destroy Europe again, and possibely, get my ass drafted ina few years if it isn't finished.

Yeah that's not happening.

Georgia's not going to get annexed either. At most, South Ossetia succeeds in being annexed by Russia.

Georgia has one chance, one only hope to not be conquered. And that is to conduct a false flag operation against the American forces stationed there.
Yeeeeessss...

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again: kiddies need to put down their Tom Clancy novels.

Russia and the Cossack Hosts will probably do nothing more than capture South Ossetia and maybe a PORTION of Northern Georgia, then Georgia will give them as concessions to Russia. Georgia would also have to recognize the independence of Abkhazia. This weakens US interests in the region.

Thank you, even though you didn't do it for us. ~ The South's black people.

I'm well aware we did it because we didn't like you (Georgians of all colors).

US troops wouldn't dare be sent to Taiwan. China wouldn't allow it, and would see that as a provocation to war.

Odd, US troops routinely operate in Taiwan.

the people living in texas would still be americans

The same way they were still Mexicans the last time they declared independence?

There won't be a WW3 started over something like this. Don't freak out so much. :)

US gets involved on the side of Georgia. Russia fights American soldiers. People take sides. WWIII.

It's the Belgium of the region.

Do they make good waffles then?:p

US gets involved on the side of Georgia. Russia fights American soldiers. People take sides. WWIII.

pfft like the US will bother...though its prolly a good time to set up that missile shield :wink:

what with the Turks making the token gesture of supplying electrical needs to Georgia it looks like Russia can do as it pleases ATM

Do they make good waffles then?:p

depends if you pick the rubble out first ;)

i looked on the website of a finnish newspaper,abkhazia has joined the war against Georgia

So aye - sad, eh?

Not so much "sad" as it's "well, duh!". What were the USA and EU thinking, that once they had granted and supported Kosovo's under international law very shady "independence", other breakaway provinces wouldn't see the precedence it set? This isn't "sad" or "surprising" or anything other than expected, really.

Saakašvili has compared the situation to the Winter War.are they comparable?yeah,it's in a way very simiral but still,are they comparable?

Fun stuff from BBC. (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550804.stm)

In summation:
-Russian troops have "liberated" (not my words) the capital of South Ossetia
-A Georgian town got plastered by Russian bombers, killed a bunch of civilians
-The province of Abkhazia has also engaged Georgian forces
-Georgian troops massing near S. Ossetia got hit by Russian airstrikes.
-Georgian president has announced a state of war

Yeah, those are what I thought were the highpoints.

i looked on the website of a finnish newspaper,abkhazia has joined the war against Georgia


Yeah, it's Russia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia against Georgia. The Don Cossack, Kuba Cossack, and Terek Cossack hosts have also joined the side against Georgia. Six parties against Georgia, yuck.

I can't see Georgian victory unless a rapid counterattack to the Russian border is assembled. Georgia will probably have to cede South Ossetia to Russia, recognize Abkhazia as an indpendent sovereign nation, and possibly have to lay some political power in Russia. (Becoming a protectorate or dependency).


There seems to be no hope of foreign intervention, though Turkey seems to be providing non-combat support in electric supply.

According to CNN, the [my] Air Force is also bombing the Georgian capital O.o

Do yourself a favor and dont watch CNN. They make it look like we (Russia) planed the war and are to blame for this conflict. Western Media always pictures was as the big bad guy trying to take out the small guy. I hate how they put up Russia invades Georgia and hardly states how this war came about or why Russia got into this conflict. They make it sound like we just went in to invade Georgia just because we can. When infact Georgia started this war.

Do yourself a favor and dont watch CNN. They make it look like we (Russia) planed the war and are to blame for this conflict. Western Media always pictures was as the big bad guy trying to take out the small guy. I hate how they put up Russia invades Georgia and hardly states how this war came about or why Russia got into this conflict. They make it sound like we just went in to invade Georgia just because we can. When infact Georgia started this war.

Georgia invaded Russia?

Do yourself a favor and dont watch CNN. They make it look like we (Russia) planed the war and are to blame for this conflict. Western Media always pictures was as the big bad guy trying to take out the small guy. I hate how they put up Russia invades Georgia and hardly states how this war came about or why Russia got into this conflict. They make it sound like we just went in to invade Georgia just because we can. When infact Georgia started this war.

Come now, all sides are culpable here. Russia can't really expect its "civilians" in S. Ossetia not to be killed if they hand out passports to rebels there (apparently making them Russian citizens). There have been reports of shooting on both sides, Georgian and Ossetian, that has lead to an escalation. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any unbiased account of the start of this, as all sides had something to gain- Ossetians want independence/to join Russia, and knowing that Russia would step in may have purposefully started this. The Russians want to "prove a point" as some have stated, or incorporate a new bit of land and people. On the other side Georgians want to resume control of S. Ossetia and rebel attacks are a perfect way to justify a move on that aim. Of course, Georgia's actions seem the least wise as they have little chance of repelling the Russian attack, it honestly doesn't make sense for them to want to do anything in S. Ossetia, but sense never got in the way of national pride.

Georgia invaded Russia?

No they invaded South Ossetias and Russian peace keepers were killed. We warned them we could protect them if the did invade.

Saakashvili (leader of Georgia) is an idoit. He says we have done war crimes? When he started this conflict and killed people in South Ossetia and Russian peace keepers! Of course we would strike back at them. 2000 people have died there because of Georgia

Saakashvili is the one who is doing war crimes here.

I don't know why this is considered a done deal so far as the victor is concerned.

In warfare, you never know what is going to happen. For all we know, a string of bad luck for the Russians and good luck for the Georgians might see the capitol of South Ossetia back in Georgian hands in a week. (Not saying it is likely, or in any way probable; but you really can never tell.)

Keep in mind the wars/operations that were supposed to be cakewalks...and failed horribly, often because the attacker underestimated their enemy. I daresay that the Georgians are far from beat right now.

No they invaded South Ossetias and Russian peace keepers were killed. We warned them we could protect them if the did invade.

Saakashvili (leader of Georgia) is an idoit. He says we have done war crimes? When he started this conflict and killed people in South Ossetia and Russian peace keepers! Of course we would strike back at them. 2000 people have died there because of Georgia

Saakashvili is the one who is doing war crimes here.

How can they invade a part of their own country?

I remember than Abkhazia and Ossetia never been Georgian before. Staline just created new administratives borders to cut off independantists development in Caucasia... The problem is those administratives borders became internationals borders after USSR, so some peoples were cut in 2 countries like Ossetie or Nagorno-Karabakh.
I think they should be independant like Kosova and I hope this conflict will be finish soon.
Caucasia situation looks like the same as ex-Yougoslavia...
For now, Abkhazia has joined the "party", but sure than Georgia has no chance alone.
I hope than NATO will do nothing ( we should stop this stupid organisation ) and EU will try to resolve this conflict by herself.
Is war will finish one day in Europe ?

How can they invade a part of their own country?

Again, S. Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as Taiwan is a part of the PRC. Would you expect the world to just stand by if the PRC were bombing Taipei?

Russia is just standing up for the right of self-determination, just like they did with the Chechens.

Again, S. Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as Taiwan is a part of the PRC. Would you expect the world to just stand by if the PRC were bombing Taipei?
Much, much less.

PRC and ROC (Taiwan) at least have the same ethnicity. Georgia and Ossetia don't.

Again, S. Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as Taiwan is a part of the PRC. Would you expect the world to just stand by if the PRC were bombing Taipei?

Yes? :tongue:

Really though, if the PRC started bombing Taiwan, the only people who would react militarily would be the U.S. And I'm not so sure about that.

Yeah, it's Russia, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia against Georgia. The Don Cossack, Kuba Cossack, and Terek Cossack hosts have also joined the side against Georgia. Six parties against Georgia, yuck.

I also read that volunteer units of militia were forming in N. Ossetia.

Again, S. Ossetia is as much a part of Georgia as Taiwan is a part of the PRC. Would you expect the world to just stand by if the PRC were bombing Taipei?

Fasle comparison. Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC, S. Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Fasle comparison. Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC, S. Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

Only in name. As New Wallonochia reminded me rather pointedly yesterday, it's been mostly autonomous since the early 90's.

And Taiwan was part of China before the PRC, and according to the PRC, it still is. So, rather sticky.

Only in name. As New Wallonochia reminded me rather pointedly yesterday, it's been mostly autonomous since the early 90's.

And Taiwan was part of China before the PRC, and according to the PRC, it still is. So, rather sticky.

Declaring yourself independent is great but only works if you can defend that independence. No one currently recognises S. Ossetia as an independent state, except, it appears, Russia.

Fasle comparison. Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC, S. Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Only as a result of administrative mistake. It immediately outraged the people, and the same year, South Ossetia revolted against this, declared independence by popular vote, and then established de-facto independence. Yes, and defended that independence. Then it was maintained by peacekeepers.

Fasle comparison. Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC, S. Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

We are prtecting are peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia. No matter what you think anout its place in the world it dosent matter. Georgia is killing Russians and South Ossetia russian civilians and we will NOT allow that.

Only as a result of administrative mistake. It immediately outraged the people, and the same year, South Ossetia revolted against this, declared independence by popular vote, and then established de-facto independence.

And this independence was recognised by who?

Fasle comparison. Taiwan has never been a part of the PRC, S. Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since the disolution of the Soviet Union.

Not according to the PRC.

When has the Georgian state actually exercised authority over S. Ossetia?

And this independence was recognised by who?
By Russia, apparently. And since it's pretty much the only power in the region apart from China, which isn't getting involved, that's a lot.

By Russia, apparently. And since it's pretty much the only power in the region apart from China, which isn't getting involved, that's a lot.

even russia didn't recognise it

We are prtecting are peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia. No matter what you think anout its place in the world it dosent matter. Georgia is killing Russians and South Ossetia russian civilians and we will NOT allow that.

So get your peacekeepers out of harms way, they obviously didn't work.

It's probably difficult for the Georgians to tell the difference between Georgian S. Ossetians and Russian S. Ossetians when the Russian government is handing out citizenships like sweets.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time accepting that Russia has suddenly become a champion of peoples rights to self determination after their behaviour in Chechenya.

And this independence was recognised by who?

Not officially by anyone, but its clear that they have fought for and pretty much won their independence.

Declaring yourself independent is great but only works if you can defend that independence. No one currently recognises S. Ossetia as an independent state, except, it appears, Russia.

Except they did defend that indipendence. Keeping in mind that this whole thing started with a Georgian attack which was stalled badly by South Ossetian troops?
This was on Thursday, by the way. Before the Russians came in and booted the Georgians out.

And like Vault 10 said, when the only superpower in a region recognizes your indipendance, that's a rather big deal.

Not officially by anyone, but its clear that they have fought for and pretty much won their independence.

So why do they need Russia to defend it?

So get your peacekeepers out of harms way, they obviously didn't work.

It's probably difficult for the Georgians to tell the difference between Georgian S. Ossetians and Russian S. Ossetians when the Russian government is handing out citizenships like sweets.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time accepting that Russia has suddenly become a champion of peoples rights to self determination after their behaviour in Chechenya.

Chechenya killed a bunch of Russian people, they were Terrorist

The postive point here is that when this conflict is over (i'm sure it will be within next 1-2 weeks), Russia won't be able to maintain their "peace keepers" because of current aggression, and international peace keeping forces would step in.

This would mean that Russia would get out of this place for a long time.

So why do they need Russia to defend it?

Goargia killed Russian peace keepers there and many of the people there are Russian Citizens.

And this independence was recognised by who?

What does that matter? Recognition doesn't create states. S. Ossetia has been operating as a state since 1992. Just because it's politically inconvenient doesn't make it not true.

So why do they need Russia to defend it?

What on earth does that mean? That to be a state you must be able to successfully defend yourself from your neighbors?

So why do they need Russia to defend it?

Because they're a weak little POS place, per capita gdp of $250, and their gov't gets most its money from Russia. Their independence was achieved earlier on, not during current events.

Its clear Russia wants to take over, or at the least put a thorn in Georgia's side. Incidentally it just happens to be the location of a tunnel between Georgia and Russia, a choke point considering all those mountains. Having an "independent" S. Ossetia, is a great way to ensure a line of attack to Georgia.

The postive point here is that when this conflict is over (i'm sure it will be within next 1-2 weeks), Russia won't be able to maintain their "peace keepers" because of current aggression, and international peace keeping forces would step in.

This would mean that Russia would get out of this place for a long time.

Georgia is the agresser and now we will make sure the people of South Ossetia are free.

Because they're a weak little POS place, per capita gdp of $250, and their gov't gets most its money from Russia. Its clear Russia wants to take over, or at the least put a thorn in Georgia's side.

lol. Not to try to undermine your point, because I actually do think the first part is a good one...but why does Russia need a thorn in Georgia's side when they have a boot over it's head?

Georgia is the agresser and now we will make sure the people of South Ossetia are free.

Just like you did in Chechnya?

Georgia is the agresser and now we will make sure the people of South Ossetia are free.

There's no proof that Georgia is the aggressor here. Both sides are engaged in "he said, she said" over who started it. The fact that you automatically assume one side is telling the truth and one side is lying shows that you cannot possibly be engaged in a debate about this subject intelligently.

lol. Not to try to undermine your point, because I actually do think the first part is a good one...but why does Russia need a thorn in Georgia's side when they have a boot over it's head?

Russia's had a bad case of penis envy over the last 17 years, seeing the USA and China get to have all the fun.

Georgia is the agresser and now we will make sure the people of South Ossetia are free.

HAHAHA what a sense of humour...

Georgia is an aggressor in it's own territory? Right?


Oh and mighty Russian forces will set someone free...like they wanted to set Finland free in 1939, but those bastards Finns didn't want to be free :D

There's no proof that Georgia is the aggressor here. Both sides are engaged in "he said, she said" over who started it. The fact that you automatically assume one side is telling the truth and one side is lying shows that you cannot possibly be engaged in a debate about this subject intelligently.

seeing how your not from the area you cannot debate about this subject intelligently.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time accepting that Russia has suddenly become a champion of peoples rights to self determination after their behaviour in Chechenya.
It's how things are. There isn't a single (significant) nation in the world that would be a champion of peoples rights to self determination. Every nation only supports someone's independence when it coincides with their interests.

But the cases are also different. In the case of Chechnya, that place has always been a criminal problem, and has been conquered by Russian Empire IIRC in the 18th century in order to stop their raids on trade routes. When they tried to get independence, the place was criminal-governed, and would represent a major problem if it broke off.
In the case of South Ossetia, we have a nation of Ossetians, which is currently much closer to Russians in ethnical aspects than to Georgians. At the fall of USSR, Ossetia was artificially separated into the North and South, with the South going to Georgia. Which is a problem, since Georgia is a nation-state rather than a multinational federation like Russia (formerly an empire), and as such has an issue of nationalism.

Thus, from the practical standpoint, Ossetian independence would be best for everyone.

What on earth does that mean? That to be a state you must be able to successfully defend yourself from your neighbors?

You must be in a postion to recieve protection from the UN, i.e. your nation must be recognised as sovereign.

What Russia is doing at the moment is unilateral involvement in the internal politics of a sovereign state. If the US was doing this then the rest of the world, including Russia, would have a problem with it and I don't see what gives Russia a free pass in this case.

HAHAHA what a sense of humour...

Georgia is an aggressor in it's own territory? Right?


Oh and mighty Russian forces will set someone free...like they wanted to set Finland free in 1939, but those bastards Finns didn't want to be free :D

When you kill peace keepers who did not provoke you, thats when your the aggressor.

lol. Not to try to undermine your point, because I actually do think the first part is a good one...but why does Russia need a thorn in Georgia's side when they have a boot over it's head?

I might have edited to add more that you didn't see. But theres a number of reasons, like the political fallout being much worse should they go for all of Georgia.

If the US was doing this then the rest of the world Would be helping it, as with Kosovo.

Oh and mighty Russian forces will set someone free...like they wanted to set Finland free in 1939, but those bastards Finns didn't want to be free :D

i wholeheartedly agree on this one.http://assets.jolt.co.uk/forums/jolt/smilies/smile.gif
:)

seeing how your not from the area you cannot debate about this subject intelligently.

Oh, I see. So you're currently in South Ossetia? Georgia?

You cannot be debated intelligently because you have already made your mind up about the nature of the conflict when any unbiased observer without a vested interest, i.e. me, can see that it is far too early to tell what actually sparked this war.

It probably won't happen, but what happens if a new minor or moderate nation in Europe or West Asia gets involved?

Oh, I see. So you're currently in South Ossetia? Georgia?

You cannot be debated intelligently because you have already made your mind up about the nature of the conflict when any unbiased observer without a vested interest, i.e. me, can see that it is far too early to tell what actually sparked this war.

No I am Russian. That is near the area of fighting. Also I belive you ARE biased just like the western media who says Russia is the one at fault and yet hardly reports on how this war came about.

Would be helping it, as with Kosovo.

Excellent, when is the rest of the UN getting involved in 'helping' S. Ossetia?

No I am Russian. That is near the area of fighting. Also I belive you ARE biased just like the western media who says Russia is the one at fault and yet hardly reports on how this war came about.

None of the reports I'm seeing are saying Russia is the one to blame. They are just reporting the he said she said currently going on between the two governments.

Please source a western news source blaming Russia.

When you kill peace keepers who did not provoke you, thats when your the aggressor.

Yeah right. When they attacked Finland in 1939, they claimed that Finnish artilery "bombed Russian villages" and provoked the "counter measures".

Same method for years. Russia hasn't change at all since then.

seeing how your not from the area you cannot debate about this subject intelligently.

I would argue that since you are from the area (I'm guessing Russia?), it is you who cannot debate intelligently, as you're understandably going to be biased towards your home nation.

I might have edited to add more that you didn't see. But theres a number of reasons, like the political fallout being much worse should they go for all of Georgia.

Yeah, you did after I posted...and I understand what you were saying, I just thought it was funny.

No I am Russian. That is near the area of fighting. Also I belive you ARE biased just like the western media who says Russia is the one at fault and yet hardly reports on how this war came about.

No. You are wrong. I am saying, and have been saying, that it's too early to tell what's going on and, until some impartial observers get on the ground in South Ossetia, we have no way of knowing whose side to believe. There are two different agendas here, Moscow's and Tblisi's. You are choosing to believe everything Moscow says is happening without any sort of corroboration other than the fact that Moscow is saying it. That is bias. The fact that you are Russian and automatically supporting the Russian interpretation without any sort of factual basis indicates that regardless of what occurs in this war, you will choose to portray it in whatever light makes Russia look the best.

And, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe Russia is a rather large country. Unless you are living in the immediate area, you are not near the fighting. Someone in Vladivostok is not "near the area of fighting" by virtue of being in Russia.

Yeah right. When they attacked Finland in 1939, they claimed that Finnish artilery "bombed Russian villages" and provoked the "counter measures".

Same method for years. Russia hasn't change at all since then.

Thats different. That was under the leadership of the Soviet Union and yes they did many worngs.

However you cant judge was on past actions by the USSR. Or I could judge Germany based on Nazi Germany. Weather or not their actions are the same.

I guess Russia's independent media is probably giving him better information than the media in the West. After all, ours is just biased corporate baloney. In Russia, the government ensures that you get the best news, as they give it to you themselves.

I guess Russia's independent media is probably giving him better information than the media in the West. After all, ours is just biased corporate baloney. In Russia, the government ensures that you get the best news, as they give it to you themselves.

This IS fact...

Russian peace keepers were killed by Georgia and they did NOT provoke. That is what started this war for Russia.

This IS fact...

Russian peace keepers were killed by Georgia and they did NOT provoke. That is what started this war for Russia.

I believe that, based on the fact the Russian leadership has said they are out for 'revenge' and wish to inflict 'punishment'.

This IS fact...

Russian peace keepers were killed by Georgia and they did NOT provoke. That is what started this war for Russia.

That's not fact. That's entirely open for interpretation. For all we know, South Ossetian rebels fired at Georgian positions first, then in the ensuing fighting Russian peacekeepers were killed. We don't KNOW how the fighting began.

This IS fact...

Russian peace keepers were killed by Georgia and they did NOT provoke. That is what started this war for Russia.

I actually agree that South Ossetia should be independent, for the record.

I believe that, based on the fact the Russian leadership has said they are out for 'revenge' and wish to inflict 'punishment'.

If mexico killed 10 usa soilders and the usa would punish them.

Thats different. That was under the leadership of the Soviet Union and yes they did many worngs.

However you cant judge was on past actions by the USSR. Or I could judge Germany based on Nazi Germany. Weather or not their actions are the same.

Well, Germany doesn't use any violence against their neighbours now. Germany is a civilised modern country that respects International Law.

Russia is the whole different story. They have bad relationshipes with most of their neighbours. Today we are seeing the examples.

And by the way, Russia claims itself as a successor of the USSR, which legally means that it is the same state only under a different name.

If mexico killed 10 usa soilders and the usa would punish them.

By invading Baja California and bombing Mexico City?

That's not fact. That's entirely open for interpretation. For all we know, South Ossetian rebels fired at Georgian positions first, then in the ensuing fighting Russian peacekeepers were killed. We don't KNOW how the fighting began.

Our soilders who are risking their lives for others can tell you and the rest of the world.

Our soilders who are risking there lives for others can tell you and the rest of the world.

I bet if there was anybody on NSG from Georgia, they would say something similar...

"Our soldiers who are fighting to reunite our country can tell you and the rest of the world."

Our soilders who are risking there lives for others can tell you and the rest of the world.

No, they can't. The only people who know how the fighting began are the Georgian and South Ossetian soldiers who were involved in the very first outbreak of fighting, and both obviously blame the other side. Russian troops were hundreds of miles away and I suspect don't have ESP.

At this point in the conflict, all we have for information is the information that is being released by the two governments involved. Each side is releasing information that, conveniently, corresponds to their agenda in this whole mess. Until we are provided information from an unbiased, third-party source, we have no idea what to reasonably believe. You simply choose to unreasonably believe everything Moscow says, without acknowledging that perhaps the source is unreliable.

Our soilders who are risking their lives for others can tell you and the rest of the world.

Nice unbiased source there. I suppose the Georgians would tell us the same thing, ja?

If mexico killed 10 usa soilders and the usa would punish them.

If Mexico killed 10 US citizens who were fomenting rebellion within Mexico in an attempt to have a province of Mexico secede to the US, then the US would loudly condemn the separatists and try to publicly distance themselves from any allegations that the US was funding Mexican separatist movements. Even when the US is caught red-handed, such as the Bay of Pigs, they disavow knowledge and cut off support to those separatist organizations.

On the other hand, Russia boldly and proudly admits that they fund and equip several separatist movements in several of their neighboring former Soviet republics.

Nice unbiased source there. I suppose the Georgians would tell us the same thing, ja?

The west is always biased when it comes to Russia. Like CNN.

The west is always biased when it comes to Russia. Like CNN.

Tell me, have you been watching CNN?

The west is always biased when it comes to Russia. Like CNN.

CNN isn't the only news outlet in the west you know.

Also, it's hard to like a country that assassinates people in Western nations.

Excellent, when is the rest of the UN getting involved in 'helping' S. Ossetia?
First of all, helping, not 'helping'. South Ossetia has established a functioning independent state, and declared independence by referendum with virtually complete support.

Second, the UN is already involved, it got involved since 1991. UN peacekeepers have been guarding the borders of de facto independent South Ossetia ever since.

The Kosovo War was handled by NATO, not UN. Russia isn't in NATO, and UN isn't a military alliance.

Tell me, have you been watching CNN?

I have seen some reports from CNN, so yea.

Also have you been watching Russian news? You should and mybe it will show you more about the turth of how this war started and its been in the making since 1992.

I think the jews are behind it. It smells of bagels and lox.

CNN isn't the only news outlet in the west you know.

Also, it's hard to like a country that assassinates people in Western nations.

What makes you think we kill people??? Aslo do you have prove?

I have seen some reports from CNN, so yea.

Also have you been watching Russian news? You should and mybe it will show you more about the turth of how this war started and its been in the making since 1992.

Yes, I'm sure Russian state news will be just as umbiased and objective as Georgian news is.

Truth <, your perspective >

I have seen some reports from CNN, so yea.

Also have you been watching Russian news? You should and mybe it will show you more about the turth of how this war started and its been in the making since 1992.

What about Georgian news? Is all they're saying lies and slander?

First of all, helping, not 'helping'. South Ossetia has established a functioning independent state, and declared independence by referendum with virtually complete support.

Second, the UN is already involved, it got involved since 1991.

The Kosovo War was handled by NATO, not UN. Russia isn't in NATO, and UN isn't a military alliance.

Well, the referendum was discarded, despite having international observers (who were stationed at about half the polling places), for various reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_ossetia#Political_status

I knows its wiki, but it seems fairly unbiased, surprisingly

First of all, helping, not 'helping'. South Ossetia has established a functioning independent state, and declared independence by referendum with virtually complete support.

Second, the UN is already involved, it got involved since 1991.

The Kosovo War was handled by NATO, not UN. Russia isn't in NATO, and UN isn't a military alliance.

KFOR was authorised by UN resolution 1244. The troops used came from NATO but they were authorised to be there by the UN.

The UN is already involved? Great, whats the resolution authorising Russia to bomb Georgia? I'd love to read it.

I think I'll leave it as 'helping'. Personally, I don't think that becoming a Russian puppet state in that region would be a good thing for the S. Ossetians.

What about Georgian news? Is all they're saying lies and slander?

Yes. They act like we started this war and are planning in taken over all of Goargia its self. I am sure they failed to mention how they killed 10 Russian peace keepers in the begging too.

What makes you think we kill people??? Aslo do you have prove?

That whole nasty issue with the FSB and a quite deadly dose of Polonium.

What makes you think we kill people??? Aslo do you have prove?

Allegations, no proof. It is difficult to "prove" something in the arena of international espionage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko_poisoning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko#Dioxin_poisoning

Yes. They act like we started this war and are planning in taken over all of Goargia its self. I am sure they failed to mention how they killed 10 Russian peace keepers in the begging too.

Do you see why someone on the Georgian side of this conflict might say the same things about Russian media?

What makes you think we kill people??? Aslo do you have prove?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6678887.stm

We never got a chance to put it before a jury, the Russians refused to extradite. I wonder why that was?

Also have you been watching Russian news? You should and mybe it will show you more about the turth of how this war started and its been in the making since 1992.

Watching Russian TV news is quite like a comedy show: Georgia bad. Ukraine bad. Lithuania bad. Latvia bad. Estonia bad. Poland bad. USA bad. EU bad.

And since there's only one semi-independent TV station in Russia, you can only dream about getting the truth.

What about Georgian news? Is all they're saying lies and slander?

Watching Russian TV news is quite like a comedy show: Georgia bad. Ukraine bad. Lithuania bad. Latvia bad. Estonia bad. Poland bad. USA bad. EU bad.

And since there's only one semi-independent TV in Russia, you can only dream about getting the truth.

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

Lol. You seriously believe that? How old are you?

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

Oh wow.

Golly gee willikers, Mr. Rogers, we can always rely on the Government to give us the truth right?

Doubleplusgood, timmy!

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

So now we see that you're not an intelligent human being at all. You're a goddamn lapdog. "Russia good, rest of world bad." Your argument really doesn't extend beyond that.

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

Good one :D

Just like you could get the truth from the pappers of Pravda.

Lol. You seriously believe that? How old are you?

16.

I feel how to see how that matters...

The Russian goverment makes sure the turth gets out unlike the west where the govermnet cannot stop turth and lies from being mixed.

Hehehe. You're funny. Have you thought about making a career out of it? :D

So now we see that you're not an intelligent human being at all. You're a goddamn lapdog. "Russia good, rest of world bad." Your argument really doesn't extend beyond that.

I am an intelligent human being. Our veiws may be different but that dose not mean you can say I am not intelligent.

16.

I feel how to see how that matters...

Well, everyone here thinks your brainwashed now, you being young matters because its easier to inculcate youth.

I think it's pointless to watch the news of either side, they both only serve to advance their position; patriotism hasn't been canceled yet. Russian news only film what's happening in Ossetia and tell the Russian/Ossetian position, Western news only film what's happening in Georgia and tell the Georgian position.

This is more of a source where at least both sides are given the word:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

I think it's pointless to watch the news of either side, they both only serve to advance their position; patriotism hasn't been canceled yet. Russian news only film what's happening in Ossetia and tell the Russian/Ossetian position, Western news only film what's happening in Georgia and tell the Georgian position.

This is more of a source where at least both sides are given the word:

u missed the end parenthesis


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

Well, everyone here thinks your brainwashed now, you being young matters because its easier to inculcate youth.

Older people would be easier to ''brainwash'' sense they are tied down to the old soviet ways.

Yet if you guys dont live in Russia and dont watch the news how can you say we are feed lies all day long?

16.

I feel how to see how that matters...

It gives an idea of life experience. Older people tend to be more distrusting of thing like government controlled media as they will have had more exposure to the fact it's generally full of shit.

I am an intelligent human being. Our veiws may be different but that dose not mean you can say I am not intelligent.

No. If you are so completely incapable of taking off your pro-Russian blinders long enough to see that the Russian state media MIGHT have a vested interest in "distorting" the truth of this conflict in order to portray themselves in a more positive light, then you are not intelligent. You are not free thinking. You are simply gobbling up everything the Russian media tells you to think, then regurgitating it on command here.

Older people would be easier to ''brainwash'' sense they are tied down to the old soviet ways.

Yet if you guys dont live in Russia and dont watch the news how can you say we are feed lies all day long?

What did the Russian state media say about the death of Litvinenko?

No. If you are so completely incapable of taking off your pro-Russian blinders long enough to see that the Russian state media MIGHT have a vested interest in "distorting" the truth of this conflict in order to portray themselves in a more positive light, then you are not intelligent. You are not free thinking. You are simply gobbling up everything the Russian media tells you to think, then regurgitating it on command here.

You sir are gobbling everything the western media feeds you and think Russia is just bent on making up the turth to fit our own needs.

The UN is already involved? Great, whats the resolution authorising Russia to bomb Georgia? I'd love to read it.
What's the UN resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia?

So far the destruction in Georgia has been limited to military and minimal fallout from the war, while South Ossetia is pretty much in ruins.

(see article and links)

The Civillians refer to themselves as Ossetian, and over half HELD RUSSIAN PASSPORTS! Are you that desperate that you have to lie in bold font now?

So? I have a Canadian passport. But I still live in America. Doesn't mean I'm Canadian, especially since I don't live there. I'm legally in American territory.

You sir are gobbling everything the western media feeds you and think Russia is just bent on making up the turth to fit our own needs.

Again, no. If you've read even a single post I've made, you'd see that I have been advocating restraint in jumping to conclusions. We have no way of knowing whose side of events is the accurate one. Most likely, both sides have interspersed truth with fiction in order to better reflect upon themselves. I have said, and continue to say, that we need to take everything both sides say with a grain of salt until we can get independent sources on the ground to properly evaluate the situation.

You, on the other hand, have outright said that everything Georgia claims is a lie and everything Russia claims is the truth. One of us here is an impartial observer. One of us here is a jingoistic robot, parroting party lines over and over. I'm the former. Guess which one you are.

Older people would be easier to ''brainwash'' sense they are tied down to the old soviet ways.

Yet if you guys dont live in Russia and dont watch the news how can you say we are feed lies all day long?

I guess Russia is just very susceptible to brainwashing then, as fartsniffage has pointed out, generally life experiences will give you some perspective on things. I don't know that you're fed lies, but theres certainly reason to suspect a state run news outlet.

Yes. They act like we started this war and are planning in taken over all of Goargia its self. I am sure they failed to mention how they killed 10 Russian peace keepers in the begging too.

Do you have any actual, solid proof that they won't take over Georgia? They are kinda bombing military targets (and supposedly civilian targets) within Georgia. You never know with Putin.

I have serious doubts about them actually being 'peacekeepers'; however, I don't have any source to say that they weren't, so I suppose I have to go with it, for n ow.

What's the UN resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia?

So far the destruction in Georgia has been limited to military and minimal fallout from the war, while South Ossetia is pretty much in ruins.

(see article and links)

According to Georgia, South Ossetia broke the ceasefire. I wonder if you have a third-party source confirming that it was, in fact, Georgian forces who began the fighting?

Seriously, is it possible for anyone here to maintain even an illusion of impartiality at this moment? We do not have enough reliable information to cast blame on either side, so can we perhaps discuss the conflict without resorting to name calling and finger pointing?

Having the Russians act as 'peacekeepers' between the Georgians and the South Ossetians is like the fox watching the henhouse all over again and anyone who doesn't see that... well, not worth my time.

What's the UN resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia?

They wouldn't need one, since one cannot invade ones own country. And that's how the UN see South Ossetia - as a part of Georgia.

You must be in a postion to recieve protection from the UN, i.e. your nation must be recognised as sovereign.

And where exactly is that engraved in stone?

Now I'm not saying that the Russians are doing this for altruistic reasons. I'm sure the Russians have several reasons for this. Proving it's still a power, getting back at the West for Kosovo, etc.

Do you have any actual, solid proof that they won't take over Georgia? They are kinda bombing military targets (and supposedly civilian targets) within Georgia. You never know with Putin.

I have serious doubts about them actually being 'peacekeepers'; however, I don't have any source to say that they weren't, so I suppose I have to go with it, for n ow.

You might not trust Putin but look at it like this:

It would be a dumb ass move for us to take over Georgia. NATO would most likly not just let that slip by and than world war 3 could break out. Besides we didnt enter this conflict to take over Georgia.

They wouldn't need one, since one cannot invade ones own country. And that's how the UN see South Ossetia - as a part of Georgia.

I would think that the UN would hold Georgia compliant with the cease fire they signed with the South Ossetians and would condemn them for violating the agreement if they are found to be the ones who initiated hostilities.

All the ceasefires that are broken in the ongoing Israel/Palestine conflict are loudly condemned by the UN, even if they are officially internal Israeli matters.

Having the Russians act as 'peacekeepers' between the Georgians and the South Ossetians is like the fox watching the henhouse all over again and anyone who doesn't see that... well, not worth my time.

I agree with you 100%.

What's the UN resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia?

So far the destruction in Georgia has been limited to military and minimal fallout from the war, while South Ossetia is pretty much in ruins.

(see article and links)

The UN sees S. Ossetia as part of Georgia and as such they don't need one. The UN doesn't see Georgia as part of Russia so they do. Do you see how that works?

Whether the supposed shelling of civilian targets by the Georgians should be seen as a war crime is another matter.

And where exactly is that engraved in stone?

Now I'm not saying that the Russians are doing this for altruistic reasons. I'm sure the Russians have several reasons for this. Proving it's still a power, getting back at the West for Kosovo, etc.

It isn't set in stone, it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that we should consider S. Ossetia an independent state just because it says it is.

You might not trust Putin but look at it like this:

It would be a dumb ass move for us to take over Georgia. NATO would most likly not just let that slip by and than world war 3 could break out. Besides we didnt enter this conflict to take over Georgia.

To be quite honest, even if Russia did take over Georgia, I don't think anyone would do anything about it besides put extra political pressure on Russia. I suppose that's another story in itself.

According to Georgia, South Ossetia broke the ceasefire. I wonder if you have a third-party source confirming that it was, in fact, Georgian forces who began the fighting?
We'll never know. But even if it were Ossetian forces, they couldn't do anything more than a shootout by a few soldiers - Georgia didn't provide proof.


[7 August] Georgia said it was beginning an operation to "restore constitutional order in the whole region."[18]
[...] He did not specify the action Georgia planned to take but said Tbilisi does not recognize the South Ossetian government and has pledged to restore its control over the province.[7] On 7 August, hundreds of South Ossetian refugees crossed the border into Russia.[19] At 00:53 on 8 August, Georgian forces began bombing the route along which refugees were being moved.[20]
The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence."[22] The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees reported 1,100 refugees arrived in North Ossetia by bus to escape the violence.[23]
[...]
At 04:45, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded, and that Georgia controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory.[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)


This all happened on August 7 - a day before Russian intervention. Georgia did announce and start an operation.
So whoever actually made the first shot, it was Georgia that started it de facto - it started a full-scale invasion of South Ossetia.

To be quite honest, even if Russia did take over Georgia, I don't think anyone would do anything about it besides put extra political pressure on Russia. I suppose that's another story in itself.

I disagree. The west would see it as Russia rebuilding its empire and that I could see how they would think that. I really dont think they would just let us take the country. If political pressure wa sput on us and Putin said not its ours...well I am sure it would be war than.

I would think that the UN would hold Georgia compliant with the cease fire they signed with the South Ossetians and would condemn them for violating the agreement if they are found to be the ones who initiated hostilities.

All the ceasefires that are broken in the ongoing Israel/Palestine conflict are loudly condemned by the UN, even if they are officially internal Israeli matters.

Condemnation in the UNSC is a very different thing from a "resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia".

This is all going crazy out there. Thank goodness it isn't Georgia as a state in the US: it would have been worse, would it?

You must be in a postion to recieve protection from the UN, i.e. your nation must be recognised as sovereign.

What Russia is doing at the moment is unilateral involvement in the internal politics of a sovereign state. If the US was doing this then the rest of the world, including Russia, would have a problem with it and I don't see what gives Russia a free pass in this case.
I don't know... The cease fire agreement that was put in place wayback when (1991?) complicates the picture somewhat.

That's interesting:

Georgian side claims to have control over southern part of Tskhinvali.

Ossetian side says that Georgia has control of southern part of Tskhinvali, but Georgians are trying to take control over the whole city.

Russian side claims that they have full control of the city.

LOL :D

We'll never know. But even if it were Ossetian forces, they couldn't do anything more than a shootout by a few soldiers - Georgia didn't provide proof.


[7 August] Georgia said it was beginning an operation to "restore constitutional order in the whole region."[18]
[...] He did not specify the action Georgia planned to take but said Tbilisi does not recognize the South Ossetian government and has pledged to restore its control over the province.[7] On 7 August, hundreds of South Ossetian refugees crossed the border into Russia.[19] At 00:53 on 8 August, Georgian forces began bombing the route along which refugees were being moved.[20]
The United Nations Security Council held an emergency session in New York City and released a statement to express "serious concerns at the escalation of violence."[22] The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees reported 1,100 refugees arrived in North Ossetia by bus to escape the violence.[23]
[...]
At 04:45, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded, and that Georgia controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory.[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)


This all happened on August 7 - a day before Russian intervention. Georgia did announce and start an operation.
So whoever actually made the first shot, it was Georgia that started it de facto - it started a full-scale invasion of South Ossetia.

You may wish to read the rest of the article, the rebels have been supported by the russians for ages, they were using russian weapons and vehicles. From what the georgian's have said, they moved in after artilery fire from the Ossetians. If you look at the bottom of the wikipedia article, it states the ossetians have 87 tanks, thats hardly "A shootout by a few soldiers" now is it?

That's interesting:

Georgian side claims to have control over southern part of Tskhinvali.

Ossetian side says that Georgia has control of southern part of Tskhinvali, but Georgians are trying to take control over the whole city.

Russian side claims that they have full control of the city.

LOL :D

Where did you hear that Ossetian said that Georgia was in control?

Condemnation in the UNSC is a very different thing from a "resolution authorizing Georgia to break the ceasefire, invade and devastate South Ossetia".

I know. I was merely saying that, even if the UN considers it an "internal Georgian affair", they would still hold Georgia responsible if they violated the cease fire agreement that they themselves signed.

You just made it seem like Georgia could do whatever they wanted in South Ossetia because it is officially part of Georgia. I'm saying that's not the case. Look at the former Yugoslavia, for instance.

I don't know... The cease fire agreement that was put in place wayback when (1991?) complicates the picture somewhat.

In what way? The Israelis frequently have ceasefires with the Palestinians and they are broken. The UN condemns but does nothing as it's an internal matter.

Edit: If it is found that the first shots were fired by the Georgians the the UN with probably take a very dim view of it.

Where did you hear that Ossetian said that Georgia was in control?

There were reports from Lithuanian newsreporters from Georgia.

There's also an information that Georgians managed to blast the tunnel connecting S. Ossetia and Russia. If it turned out to be truth (of which I'm sure) this would cause a serious trouble for Russian land forces.

You may wish to read the rest of the article, the rebels have been supported by the russians for ages, they were using russian weapons and vehicles. From what the georgian's have said, they moved in after artilery fire from the Ossetians. If you look at the bottom of the wikipedia article, it states the ossetians have 87 tanks, thats hardly "A shootout by a few soldiers" now is it?
The mainland Georgia is also using Russian weapons and vehicles. Actually, Ossetians got most of what they have through separation.

It's true they had some armament, but it wasn't involved in initial skirmishes - otherwise there would be proof left.
The August 1st shootout was quite a while back. Though, the way it started, it's unlikely that we'll ever be able to learn.