NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, it's another Yootopian News Story Event Thing. With a tacky title.

The capital of South Ossetia came under heavy fire last night, hours after the Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, denied Russian accusations that Tbilisi was preparing for war against the breakaway region.

"The assault is coming from all directions," said a brief statement on the separatist government's website.

Tbilisi said it was trying to "neutralise" rebel forces which it said were attacking Georgian villages, a senior official told Reuters. Casualty figures were unclear, but the escalating violence has raised fears of an all-out regional war, drawing in Russia, which has close ties with South Ossetia's separatist leadership.

So aye - sad, eh?

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Chechnya. All of these breakaway Soviet f***-up bi-products deserve what they are getting or what's coming to them. The Caucusus are a huge pool of many different ethnic minorities, so when a few of them decides to 'breakaway', it's their own fault for what their former homeland does to them. That's what thinking about independence and freedom does to you in the outside world. :mad:

With a tacky title.
At least they're improving. We may get a good one in four or five threads time. ;)

Oh yeah, and woo! for breakaway regions of former Soviet breakaway regions!

At least they're improving. We may get a good one in four or five threads time. ;)
Pfft. I made a couple WAY back with genuinely witty titles, but they were ignored for being about boring topics. This is a nice balance :tongue:
Oh yeah, and woo! for breakaway regions of former Soviet breakaway regions!
Or boo if you're Georgian I suppose.

Georgia's recent history has been pretty eventful, and although I'm not too hot on the area's political in-and-outs, Russia and Georgia going at it can't be good.


Oh yeah, and woo! for breakaway regions of former Soviet breakaway regions!
Wait until those pesky Mid-East South Ossetians rise up.


Yes, it's another Yootopian News Story Event Thing. With a tacky title.
You're screwed if Czechoslovakia comes up in the news soon...

You're screwed if Czechoslovakia comes up in the news soon...

Good thing it doesn't exist anymore.

Yea, I guess I have to side with the separatists, assuming that the majority of the population there want to break away, if not, gun 'em all down I guess. I had a friend from Georgia and he mentioned this region as being trouble a few years back, I can only hope Russia Doesn't get involved, it'd be a disaster for Georgia, and probably do some fun stuff with US - Russian relations.

Pfft. I made a couple WAY back with genuinely witty titles, but they were ignored for being about boring topics. This is a nice balance :tongue:
*checks Yootopia's thread history*

"It's a bad dream-a for Kadima"?

Genuinely witty. *nods*

Some Russian peacekeepers have been killed there today: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080808/twl-georgian-shells-kill-russian-troops-3fd0ae9.html

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080808/twl-russia-georgia-sossetia-unrest-milit-696b303.html And now Georgia threatens Russia with war.

Yes, it's another Yootopian News Story Event Thing. With a tacky title.



So aye - sad, eh?

Well, at least the title works this time. Also, I smell trouble.

Good thing it doesn't exist anymore.
Well, poo.

The Czech Republic isn't any easier. :p

what about Finland?how you're gonna get a bad thread title out of that?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080808/twl-russia-georgia-sossetia-unrest-milit-696b303.html And now Georgia threatens Russia with war.

Well, sounds more like a warning than a threat... One could say It'd be an act of war for Russia to send troops there anyway. we should have put them in Nato already then Russia couldn't do anything.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080808/twl-russia-georgia-sossetia-unrest-milit-696b303.html And now Georgia threatens Russia with war.

Quite surprising that Georgia threaten with war if Russia invade it's territory... :rolleyes:

what about Finland?how you're gonna get a bad thread title out of that?

Finland? More like WIN-land! (For a topic complimenting Finland on something good they recently did) Also, that was really easy.

Well, sounds more like a warning than a threat... One could say It'd be an act of war for Russia to send troops there anyway. we should have put them in Nato already then Russia couldn't do anything.

Too late

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24150734-601,00.html

Too late

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24150734-601,00.html

rut roh

rut roh

Yeah, sending tanks and fighters and bombers isn't a positive step...

Damn it. I don't even have some halfasses atempt at trying to be funny.

This is bad. Very bad.

let this be a lesson to all you kids, never trust anything named Georgia.

I say we just leave Russia and Georgia to sort this out (while McCain rides around on a horse) and hope that Georgia backs down

let this be a lesson to all you kids, never trust anything named Georgia.

I say we just leave Russia and Georgia to sort this out (while McCain rides around on a horse) and hope that Georgia backs down

How 'bout Tzar Putin backs down instead? Russia is the one attacking.

let this be a lesson to all you kids, never trust anything named Georgia.

Is that why Sherman burned one of them in the 1860s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_to_the_sea)?

let this be a lesson to all you kids, never trust anything named Georgia.

I say we just leave Russia and Georgia to sort this out (while McCain rides around on a horse) and hope that Georgia backs down
Thank goodness it's the evil Georgia. Russia would have a much tougher time in my backyard.

How 'bout Tzar Putin backs down instead? Russia is the one attacking.

Is he? Georgia invaded South Ossetia 8 days ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29

Is he? Georgia invaded South Ossetia 8 days ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29

Damn American news must have been to busy following Obama around to inform me of that. I am sorry for my mistake.

A superpower....kicking the shit out of a weak country with no hope to resist...sound familiar?

Yet I do not hear the masses of NSG going apeshit like they do about Iraq. Why is that?

A superpower....kicking the shit out of a weak country with no hope to resist...sound familiar?

Yet I do not hear the masses of NSG going apeshit like they do about Iraq. Why is that?

Because Russia isn't America silly.

Because Russia isn't America silly.

Oh, of course. My bad.

Now, I'm wondering what the rest of the world is going to do. And by rest of the world, I mean the EU and the U.S.

Thank goodness it's the evil Georgia. Russia would have a much tougher time in my backyard.

I wouldn't doubt that. :tongue:

http://piratesofrock.com/uploads/squidbillies.jpg

A superpower....kicking the shit out of a weak country with no hope to resist...sound familiar?

Yet I do not hear the masses of NSG going apeshit like they do about Iraq. Why is that?

At least Iraq had the world's third largest army before 2003. Proves that quality can be more important than quantity, if nothing else. :)

At least Iraq had the world's third largest army before 2003. Proves that quality can be more important than quality, if nothing else. :)

so quality is more important than quality?

so quality is more important than quality?

Yes. Always. :)

Yes. Always. :)

but if quality is better than quality,who knows which quality is better?

but if quality is better than quality,who knows which quality is better?

Whichever is greatest in haecceity, naturally.

Is he? Georgia invaded South Ossetia 8 days ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_...tia_%282008%29

Never mind that South Ossetia is universally recognized as part of Georgia, not Russia. Once again, Putin and his puppet are trying to re-expand the regional influence that Russia lost in the 1980's, he's been pressing all around the country, on the Baltics, on the Czechs, the Poles and now the Georgians.

A superpower....kicking the shit out of a weak country with no hope to resist...sound familiar?

Yet I do not hear the masses of NSG going apeshit like they do about Iraq. Why is that?

Probably because it's not as simplistic as that. The Russians are aiding their ally (and puppet, to be honest) against an attack by Georgia (which may or may not have been provoked by the Ossetians).

All in all it's not very clear and the situation is very complex.

Never mind that South Ossetia is universally recognized as part of Georgia, not Russia.

In much the same way it's nearly universally recognized that Taiwan is part of the PRC.

Probably because it's not as simplistic as that. The Russians are aiding their ally (and puppet, to be honest) against an attack by Georgia (which may or may not have been provoked by the Ossetians).

All in all it's not very clear and the situation is very complex.

And Georgia is our ally. What are we going to do? Our ally has 150 Russian tanks advancing on their capitol. Now, THAT is complex.

Also, do we have troops over there training their army?

Well, poo.

The Czech Republic isn't any easier. :p
For making stupid puns on? Nothing is easier, Czech it out!

And Georgia is our ally. What are we going to do? Our ally has 150 Russian tanks advancing on their capitol. Now, THAT is complex.

Do they? None of the reports I've seen indicate the destination of the Russian forces. It's quite possible, and even likely that the Russians intend to only secure the Ossetian border.

Also, do we have troops over there training their army?

I believe so.

I'd love to continue this chat but I've got to hit the road.

Do they? None of the reports I've seen indicate the destination of the Russian forces. It's quite possible, and even likely that the Russians intend to only secure the Ossetian border.

It was on CNN...I've had it tuned to channel 25 since I learned about the invasion.



I believe so.

I'd love to continue this chat but I've got to hit the road.

Well, what are we going to do about them?

Impressive. The typical NSGer doesn't give a shit if Russia invades someplace...

Impressive. The typical NSGer doesn't give a shit if Russia invades someplace...

Any conflict the US is involved in is 'illegal'*. Everything else is justified. It's a well settled part of international law.

*Except for bombing serbia. That's always good.

Any conflict the US is involved in is 'illegal'. Everything else is justified. It's a well settled part of international law.

I noticed. If Bush had been invading Georgia today, this thread would already be passing the 1000 post mark.

Putin is right to go ahead and invade then - the typical American or European could care less if Georgia gets invaded by Russia.

I noticed. If Bush had been invading Georgia today, this thread would already be passing the 1000 post mark.

Putin is right to go ahead and invade then - the typical American or European could care less if Georgia gets invaded by Russia.

People will care when oil prices go up...

It was on CNN...I've had it tuned to channel 25 since I learned about the invasion.

They said that the tanks are near the suburb of the capital of south ossetia, at least on wiki... at work now so no news for me.

Well, what are we going to do about them?

Idk, evac hopefully. Otherwise it could lead to a war between the US and Russia. It'd be really funny if that happened, after the whole cold war, and then there's a war now. I have to say this is all very interesting, I guess I can't say my lifetime was a period of boring stuff as far as wars go.

People will care when oil prices go up...

Oil goes down. When things like this happen Eurotrash* liquidate their Euro/GBP/CHF holdings and buy dollar denominated assets because they know the US is the only 'free' country with a decent military and therefore is a safe haven in times of geopolitical crisis.

Therefore the dollar becomes stronger and oil tends to decrease in price.

And this whole thing was obviously expected, check out yesterdays treasury auction.

*I don't mean the average european, just their left wing anti-US leader types.

They said that the tanks are near the suburb of the capital of south ossetia, at least on wiki... at work now so no news for me.

Oooooookay. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Haha. Wiki.

Oil goes down. When things like this happen Eurotrash* liquidate their Euro/GBP/CHF holdings and buy dollar denominated assets because they know the US is the only 'free' country with a decent military and therefore is a safe haven in times of geopolitical crisis.

Therefore the dollar becomes stronger and oil tends to decrease in price.

And this whole thing was obviously expected, check out yesterdays treasury auction.

*I don't mean the average european, just their left wing anti-US leader types.

That...is a wierd outlook. And oil did go down four dollars today...

*I don't mean the average european, just their left wing anti-US leader types.
Who also don't exist.

Who also don't exist.

And yet somebody in the UK and Europe bought all those bonds yest. I don't imagine it was you or anyone you know, so........

And yet somebody in the UK and Europe bought all those bonds yest. I don't imagine it was you or anyone you know, so........
What, you seriously think Brown (and for that matter, Sarkozy or Merkel) can be described as 'left wing anti-US leader types'?

What, you seriously think Brown (and for that matter, Sarkozy or Merkel) can be described as 'left wing anti-US leader types'?

I am not talking about irrelevant politicians. I am talking about people with money & endowments and such.

Brown, Merkel and Sarkozy are not all that important in the scheme of things.

A superpower....kicking the shit out of a weak country with no hope to resist...sound familiar?

Yet I do not hear the masses of NSG going apeshit like they do about Iraq. Why is that?
Because this is basically like the first Gulf War rather than the second one. Russia's interests, including Russian civilians, have been attacked, and the objective will be to repel the Georgians.

The second gulf war was a war of aggression by the States, and was rightly condemned.
Now, I'm wondering what the rest of the world is going to do. And by rest of the world, I mean the EU and the U.S.
Nothing, and I'm sure that they're quietly happy that this will scupper any plans for the entry of Georgia into NATO.

*checks Yootopia's thread history*

"It's a bad dream-a for Kadima"?

Genuinely witty. *nods*
PFFT. The trouble in paradise one was a superior thread, and contained less rhyming too :p

So, if I get this right, separatists in a part of Georgia, which wants to join Russia, started attacking/defending themselves from peacekeeping forces there. Then Georgian troops invaded to show the separatists what's what, and almost took the capital. Then, a day later, Russia invaded to show the separatists what's what, and almost took the capital. Now, there are two armies there that kinda shouldn't be there, and a load of separatists in the middle shooting at anything and the situation only needs one small spark before thousands die for no apparent reason.

Am I right? I hope I'm not.

Because this is basically like the first Gulf War rather than the second one. Russia's interests, including Russian civilians, have been attacked, and the objective will be to repel the Georgians.

The second gulf war was a war of aggression by the States, and was rightly condemned.


If we take the Georgian President at his word (big If), then it's not just Georgian forces in South Ossetia that are under attack. It's the entire country.

I donno, we really lack concrete information as of now. This should turn out very interesting, at least.

So, if I get this right, separatists in a part of Georgia, which wants to join Russia, started attacking/defending themselves from peacekeeping forces there. Then Georgian troops invaded to show the separatists what's what, and almost took the capital. Then, a day later, Russia invaded to show the separatists what's what, and almost took the capital. Now, are two armies there that kinda shouldn't be there, and a load of separatists in the middle shooting at anything and the situation only needs one small spark before thousands die for no apparent reason.

Am I right? I hope I'm not.
Aye you're quite right. The children have already been evacuated.

If we take the Georgian President at his word (big If), then it's not just Georgian forces in South Ossetia that are under attack. It's the entire country.
I think we'd be hearing of more casualties than ten-odd Russians and a dozen Georgians and seperatists if the entire state of Georgia was under attack, don't you think?
I donno, we really lack concrete information as of now.
Indeed.
This should turn out very interesting, at least.
Might steal the Olympics' thunder, aye.

Shit be going down.

But I hope not. Perhaps some frantic talks today/tonight can de-escalate the situation...


I am not talking about irrelevant politicians. I am talking about people with money & endowments and such.
So, could you name one of these "left wing anti-US leader types" who has "money & endowments and such"?

Might steal the Olympics' thunder, aye.

The Soviets err... Russians, were always great at using international events to take care of 'internal business' while the rest of the world was preoccupied.

I think we'd be hearing of more casualties than ten-odd Russians and a dozen Georgians and seperatists if the entire state of Georgia was under attack, don't you think?


Considering journalists weren't pre deployed there like they were in recent battlefields, we can only weigh what he says, and he says Russian aircraft have been pounding targets outside of South Ossetia.

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The Soviets err... Russians, were always great at using international events to take care of 'internal business' while the rest of the world was preoccupied.
Aye. It's also the holidays. The Russians are going to get off Scot-free.
Considering journalists weren't pre deployed there like they were in recent battlefields, we can only weigh what he says, and he says Russian aircraft have been pounding targets outside of South Ossetia.

As they say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Aye well as you say, we have to weigh what he says. The words of NATO's bootlicker du jour do not interest me much.

I think we'd be hearing of more casualties than ten-odd Russians and a dozen Georgians and seperatists if the entire state of Georgia was under attack, don't you think?

Indeed.

Might steal the Olympics' thunder, aye.

Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.

That would be your lots of dead people, plus you can't expect them to have accurate numbers yet.

Fucking American news coverage. A 30 second blurb on Russia invading someone, and then 5 minutes talking about some chick that got offed, followed by another 5 minutes of Nancy Grace blowing hot air. Not even Fox News is covering the story.

I've just heard glimpses from the radio that I think said the Russian airforce has been deployed and full scale fighting has broken out, but between who I don't know.

Fucking American news coverage. A 30 second blurb on Russia invading someone, and then 5 minutes talking about some chick that got offed, followed by another 5 minutes of Nancy Grace blowing hot air. Not even Fox News is covering the story.

Yea... rather disappointing. I really care most about international conflicts, and there's little coverage.

So, the question is, how far does this go? Will Georgia cease to exist in 2 weeks? Will Russia guarantee the independence of South Ossetia? Will NATO get involved if Russia proves to have ambitions beyond SO?

I don't think they will try to take all of Georgia. But the peace treaty might be pretty bad for them. I don't think NATO will be involved in this, unless we get some casualties (some one said we have some personnel up there). And if we do get involved, it will be as much diplomacy as possible.

So, the question is, how far does this go? Will Georgia cease to exist in 2 weeks? Will Russia just guarantee the independence of South Ossetia? Will NATO get involved if Russia proves to have ambitions beyond SO?

Will NATO get involved if Russia proves to have ambitions beyond SO?
You've been reading too much Tom Clancy.

Put the war simulation down. :p

So, the question is, how far does this go? Will Georgia cease to exist in 2 weeks? Will Russia just guarantee the independence of South Ossetia? Will NATO get involved if Russia proves to have ambitions beyond SO?

I'd imagine something along the line of the Lebanon/Israel 2006 'conflagration'.

Both sides do stuff, no goals meet, both huff and puff at each other before an uneasy stalemate.

Oh and hundreds die and thousands displaced of course.

You've been reading too much Tom Clancy.

Put the war simulation down. :p

Tom Clancy sucks. The only half decent thing he wrote was Red Storm Rising. The only reason I even put NATO intervention as a (very remote) possibility is that Georgia likes to stroke NATO's dick. And if Russia devastates Georgia, perhaps NATO would throw caution to the wind and do something.

Again, very unlikely.

Georgian and Russian troops are actually shooting at each other according to BBC News.

Just heard on the BBC news that russian planes are defiantely flying in georgia, not just south Ossetia. They are also dropping bombs there, and also more worrying, the guy they have on the ground said that all the normal and military hospitals are already full of casulties. Unless that have very few or very small hospitals, then a lot of people have already been hurt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were having trouble coping with the influx of casualties and ambulances were having trouble reaching the injured.


Hundreds of fighters from Russia and Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia were reportedly heading to aid the separatist troops.
^
Not good.

Now Russian artillery has opened fire on Georgian troops.

Just heard on the BBC news that russian planes are defiantely flying in georgia, not just south Ossetia.

Now Russian artillery has opened fire on Georgian troops.
Egads...

Not good at all. This is a very complex situation.

Now Russian artillery has opened fire on Georgian troops.

Georgian artillery is bombarding a hospital. Apparently. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29#8_August_.E2.80.93_present:_Russia_becomes_involved")

Egads...

Yup...

I wonder what the Russian plan is.

I got my source from the BBC.

Fucking a...god damn U.S. news coverage! They aren't showing shit!
Does anybody know a news organization that is getting good coverage on this?

Somebody needs to piss on this ember, and fast, before it flares up into something big.

EDIT: CNN just said that Russia is bombing targets near Tiblisi

Yup...

I wonder what the Russian plan is.

A power move, mabye? To prove that they have recovered from the breakup of the Soviet Union and the 90s economic woes? To demonstrate to the world that Russia is a great power again?

Fucking a...god damn U.S. news coverage! They aren't showing shit!
Does anybody know a news organization that is getting good coverage on this?

Somebody needs to piss on this ember, and fast, before it flares up into something big.

EDIT: CNN just said that Russia is bombing targets near Tiblisi

You'd have to define big there. As it is its just two combatants, and pretty much sounds like the shit has hit the fan. So... not much more escalation for now anyway.

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Are you serious? calm down. As exciting as it is, not yet world destruction going on, Georgia isn't in NATO, if it was then I'd be agreeing with you.

i hope it,doesn't escalate because we live next to Russia.and as russia has recently imposed woodtariffs and now theyre fighting over that in addition to this war

A power move, mabye? To prove that they have recovered from the breakup of the Soviet Union and the 90s economic woes? To demonstrate to the world that Russia is a great power again?

Its certainly not for the good of the Ossetians. After all, if the South Ossetians get independence the North Ossetians from Russia are going to want to unite with them.

I suspect the Russians would like to 'encourage' a Nazarbayev-type leader to come to power in Georgia.

You'd have to define big there. As it is its just two combatants, and pretty much sounds like the shit has hit the fan. So... not much more escalation for now anyway.

Oh, it can escalate. As in...actual ground combat between Russian and Georgian troops. Or if one of the U.S. advisors gets killed, which seems more likely now that airstrikes are hitting around Tiblisi.

I'm not saying World War Three (thank god Georgia isn't in NATO), but it can get a lot worse.

"Eduard Kokoity reported as saying death toll has risen to 1400 Russia Today newscast" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/south-ossettia-leader-says-1400-killed-in-conflict-888487.html)

Thats really not so good. 1400 dead is no minor skirmish, its only going to be a big war from now onwards.

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

I think its a bit early to be locking yourself in the bomb shelter.

I think its a bit early to be locking yourself in the bomb shelter.

Lies! LIES! AHHHH!!!!

*Runs to basement, hides with cat litter boxes*

"Eduard Kokoity reported as saying death toll has risen to 1400 Russia Today newscast" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/south-ossettia-leader-says-1400-killed-in-conflict-888487.html)

Thats really not so good. 1400 dead is no minor skirmish, its only going to be a big war from now onwards.

Is that guy you trust, this Eduard Kokoity?

Oh, it can escalate. As in...actual ground combat between Russian and Georgian troops. Or if one of the U.S. advisors gets killed, which seems more likely now that airstrikes are hitting around Tiblisi.

I'm not saying World War Three (thank god Georgia isn't in NATO), but it can get a lot worse.

They are in actual ground combat, as you'd know if you'd read the thread.

Lies! LIES! AHHHH!!!!

*Runs to basement, hides with cat litter boxes*

I'll let you know when the nuclear war is over.

*waits 30 years*

Oh, it can escalate. As in...actual ground combat between Russian and Georgian troops. Or if one of the U.S. advisors gets killed, which seems more likely now that airstrikes are hitting around Tiblisi.

I'm not saying World War Three (thank god Georgia isn't in NATO), but it can get a lot worse.

Certainly but there's no signs of it doing so as of now, that's all.

Is that guy you trust, this Eduard Kokoity?

I wouldn't the guys the seperatist leader, besides him having no way of knowing right now, I wouldn't trust anything he says, anymore than I would what Putin or Saakashvili says.

I think that NATO may do something if russia tries to take all of Georgia, allowing them to do so would bring back bad memories of Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

They are in actual ground combat, as you'd know if you'd read the thread.

Sorry, missed that post =/ my bad.
Regardless, I'm talking about that Russian tank column meeting up with a Georgian brigade.

Certainly but there's no signs of it doing so as of now, that's all.

Meh. The casualty rate is still climbing, the tanks haven't turned around, and neither have those Georgian units that the President activated. You have two pissed off, armed to the teeth armies on hairtriggers who are arguably engaged in a shooting war. It won't take much to set that off.

Meh. The casualty rate is still climbing, the tanks haven't turned around, and neither have those Georgian units that the President activated. You have two pissed off, armed to the teeth armies on hairtriggers who are arguably engaged in a shooting war. It won't take much to set that off.

It was my take that war was already going on between the two (Georgia and Russia), I'm talking about more countries getting involved. Don't know what else to call it but war, bombing, shelling, fighting... There's nothing to set off, its already gone.

Are you serious? calm down. As exciting as it is, not yet world destruction going on, Georgia isn't in NATO, if it was then I'd be agreeing with you.

I think its a bit early to be locking yourself in the bomb shelter.

*sigh*

Fred Thompson would not be impressed.

It was my take that war was already going on between the two (Georgia and Russia), I'm talking about more countries getting involved. Don't know what else to call it but war, bombing, shelling, fighting... There's nothing to set off, its already gone.

Right now it's kind of like the Israel-Lebanon conflict from a few years ago. Lots of artillery, lots of airstrikes, not much ground combat. What I meant by escalation was a transition from Israel-Lebanon to, say, Iraq-USA (91, not 03)

*sigh*

Fred Thompson would not be impressed.

I think he'd be even less impressed by your mangling his quote :tongue:

I think he'd be even less impressed by your mangling his quote :tongue:

Maybe you should google the quote...

Right now it's kind of like the Israel-Lebanon conflict from a few years ago. Lots of artillery, lots of airstrikes, not much ground combat. What I meant by escalation was a transition from Israel-Lebanon to, say, Iraq-USA (91, not 03)

But there is ground combat. Right now Russians and South Ossetians are shooting at Georgian soldiers who are shooting back. If that isn't ground combat, what is?

But there is ground combat. Right now Russians and South Ossetians are shooting at Georgian soldiers who are shooting back. If that isn't ground combat, what is?

Yes, there is ground combat. Like I said.

I meant large scale ground combat. Like I said in my response to your other post.

Interfax quoted South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity as saying there were "hundreds of dead civilians" in Tskhinvali.

That would be your lots of dead people, plus you can't expect them to have accurate numbers yet.
Aye well I don't really trust him, either. Could really do with some UN figures.

Yes, there is ground combat. Like I said.

I meant large scale ground combat. Like I said in my response to your other post.

Just doesn't seem to be a useful distinction (of escalation), the way wars are fought changes, deaths from bombing can kill as good as a bullet. But if that's what you meant, sure it could escalate more, and seems to be on its way.

I think that NATO may do something if russia tries to take all of Georgia, allowing them to do so would bring back bad memories of Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

More like memories of Russia in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, etc.

Now, what does Georgia do? Do they call off their offensive? Do they negotiate? To they declare war (lulz)?

Another tidbit: Georgia is calling back their 1000 troops they sent to Iraq.

looks like somebody is getting fucked (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7550039.stm)

Mikhail Saakashvili is a dick isn't he?

I meant large scale ground combat. Like I said in my response to your other post.

like say leveling the capital with artillery (that shouldn't be there*)?

look at that rocket artillery go! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7546639.stm)

*not that Russia hasn't begun moving self propelled artillery (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7549594.stm)

other BBC stuff:

Russia talks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7549971.stm)

Now, what does Georgia do?

looks like they are suing for peace (or are trying to look like they are so that Russian forces have to withdraw)

As I understand the situation:

Until 1991, all were parts of USSR, with autonomy, so no one really cared about which belongs there. During the fall of USSR, North Ossetia went to Russia and South Osetia ended up as part of Georgia.
Just before the fall, the South Ossetians have held a referendum, with overwhelming vote for independency, from either Russia or Georgia, as an independent republic of USSR.
Georgia didn't accept is as they said it wasn't valid because it would have to be a Georgia-wide referendum or something like that.
Ossetia started to de-facto make itself independent, severing ties with Georgia. The Georgia replied by an invasion.
UN forces entered the region, and UN peacekeeping forces, particularly Russian, have been stationed to guard the Ossetian border.

Lately, what happened was Georgia basically starting another invasion.
The Russians, of course, ultimately want to see South Ossetia as a part of Russia, together with North, but since that's likely to happen if South Ossetia gets independence, they're supporting it. So they're keeping the self-proclaimed independency of South Ossetia, which Georgia disputes, and this time it decided to secure South Ossetia by force.
So far they partially did it, but Russia has put in troops and tries to restore the previous status quo.

The BBC is reporting that Russian aircraft are striking Georgian bases near Tbilisi, much to the vehement denials of the Russian government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550354.stm

Sounds like the Russkies are playing for keeps. And lying about stuff.

Just doesn't seem to be a useful distinction (of escalation), the way wars are fought changes, deaths from bombing can kill as good as a bullet. But if that's what you meant, sure it could escalate more, and seems to be on its way.

That is what I meant.

I feel bad for the civilians, though. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Ouch.

Mikhail Saakashvili is a dick isn't he?

He has authoritarian tendencies, but so does the Russian leadership. And the leaders of South Ossetia are glorified gangsters.

A power move, mabye? To prove that they have recovered from the breakup of the Soviet Union and the 90s economic woes? To demonstrate to the world that Russia is a great power again?

Probably to see how the West likes their own Kosovo.

The BBC is reporting that Russian aircraft are striking Georgian bases near Tbilisi, much to the vehement denials of the Russian government.

It's not surprising that they're hitting the Georgian military in depth.

Sounds like the Russkies are playing for keeps. And lying about stuff.

Of course they are, they're Russians.

At this moment it's war, it's not surprising that nobody in the fighting armies really cares about "violating" each other's territory. Politicians might and might be trying to cover it up to represent the opponent as "more aggressive", but seriously it's a tiny territory and a plane can barely turn around there without violating someone's airspace. And, of course, due to the tiny size of the territory, military strikes from both sides will be dealt not only within, but outside it.

He has authoritarian tendencies, but so does the Russian leadership. And the leaders of South Ossetia are glorified gangsters.

Hired thugs, for lack of a better term.

looks like they are suing for peace (or are trying to look like they are so that Russian forces have to withdraw)

Or taking a step back from the brink. But, in all fairness, Georgia can't hold off Russia, I mean, for Christ's sake, the Russians have nearly 100 times more tanks than the Georgians, they have a potent fleet in the Black Sea, and the virtually limitless resources of, well, Russia.

Given that Georgia is in such an underdog position, I suspect that there's more going on here than Saakashvili being a pure dick. I suspect Putin's (I can still see his soul! It is black as fucking midnight!) rebuild the Russian Empire program might be a motivator.

Bellania's Minister of Defense looked at the paper with surprise.

"Russia's invading Georgia? But the Congress is on vacation!"

"Sir, technically, Georgia invaded a separatist territory," the secretary stated, "and Russia sent 'peacekeepers' to protect that region."

The Minister snorted. "Sure. They're only there so they can 'protect' the capital with an invasion. The only recourse they'll have will be to install the separatist government in order to forestall any further bloodshed. We're not going to let the bastards get away with it."

"What?"

"Send the Peacekeeper flotilla and the 191. We'll show those Russians how to occupy a country."

"Umm, sir, that's a RL conflict."

"And?"

"Bellania doesn't exist in the real world."

"Dammit, that didn't stop Bush from invading Iraq looking for 'WMDs'. If he can manufacture a few nuclear and chemical weapons, we can invade Russia. We're going in!"

"Riiight sir. I'll get right on that. By the way, here's your pill for today."





My vote is to move this to Incidents. I wonder how close NS's RPers could get the battle.

Russia won't take more than the disputed territory, which isn't Georgian anyway, it's a breakaway region of South Ossetia. Georgia has been fighting the separatists/rebels what ever you want to call them., in order to regain control of the province, which has been de facto independent from the 1990's, up until the Georgian, and now, Russian, invasions of late. These separatists have strong ties to Russia. The Russians are helping the separatists in that area and defending the numerous Russian citizens there. As yet, this isn't an actual invasion of Georgian territory. I doubt the Russians will over run Georgia completely, but you never know with the Ruskies.

The BBC news website has a good article on the subject where I have gained most of my understanding of this topic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7548715.stm

Russia claims that the Georgians have inflicted 1400 casualties with their shelling of the capital of the separatist region. Including 10 Russian peacekeepers, 30 injured.

They also claim Russian counter fire has suppressed the Georgians, fighting is on going, heavy, and extremely bloody. Peacekeepers say the city is in ruins. South Ossetia is calling Georgia's attacks ‘genocide’.

Thousands of refugees from the self-proclaimed republic have arrived in Russia, according to the Migration Service. The Georgians aren't taking prisoners and Russia deployed after receiving a "call for help"

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has claimed there is evidence of ethnic cleansing in villages in South Ossetia.

”Georgian peacekeepers, who were part of the same contingent with the Russian peacekeepers were firing at their comrades. It was absolutely unacceptable to see residential quarters shelled, to see a humanitarian convoy that was trying to reach the people in need bombed from the air. And many villages, including those outside the zone of conflict, are being attacked by the Georgian troops using artillery, tanks,” he said.

According to the Georgian government, the Russians are bombing areas outside the combat zone, including Georgia's capital, casualties are light. Russian aircraft have been confirmed to of been shot down.

Russia have opened borders to refugees.

Georgia has withdrawn half of her troops from Iraq. Peacekeepers are stopping other separatists from joining the fight. British and German parliamentary officials have called for a cessation of hostilities.


Most surprisingly, Georgia is advancing on the South Ossetian capital with moderate success. I would think once the Russians have fully deployed, things will change.

Courtesy of Russia today, Sky channel 512, and it's corresponding website.

www.russiatoday.ru

From WP, sourced:


However, the de facto independent republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum[6] on November 12, 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid.[7] According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[8] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations[9].


http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-09-11T131034Z_01_L11486859_RTRUKOC_0_UK-GEORGIA-RUSSIA.xml&archived=False
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=13522
http://www.regnum.ru/english/737823.html
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=14058


Seems like they're pretty set on getting independence. 99% is way out of the ordinary, so is the voter turnout.

The situation is analogous to that which existed during the American Civil War. Mikheil Saakashvili is a modern-day Lincoln: a steadfast, unwavering supporter of freedom and democracy. After escaping the evil clutches of the Soviet Union, Georgia remains a troubled nation; nonetheless, its courageous and tenacious president has resisted Russia's insidious influence and is trying to forge a new path for his nation, one that leads to peace and prosperity. Yet he is hindered in this quest not only by the insatiably power-hungry Putin, but also the nefarious individuals who rule the recalcitrant Georgian provinces. I admire his bravery in confronting his implacable, fiendish enemies despite the inferiority of his military position; hopefully, he will be aided in his pursuit by the US.

I think its funny that Condoleezza Rice is teling Russia to halt attacks in South Ossetia and Georgian territory. When it was Georgia who started this conflict in the first place.....

So, could you name one of these "left wing anti-US leader types" who has "money & endowments and such"?

Oleg Deripaska. (And don't say he's not European. His money is in teh Euros and he lives in london).

I think its funny that Condoleezza Rice is teling Russia to halt attacks in South Ossetia and Georgian territory. When it was Georgia who started this conflict in the first place.....


wouldn't surprise me, considering this all started the other day, and it didn't show up on CNN until a few hours ago. BBC news did have an article about Georgia talking about the ceasefire, then bombing S. Ossetia afterwards.. Anyone think Georgia still has a chance in NATO?

I think its funny that Condoleezza Rice is teling Russia to halt attacks in South Ossetia and Georgian territory. When it was Georgia who allegedly started this conflict in the first place.....

Fixed.

Anyone think Georgia still has a chance in NATO?
I seriously hope not.

I just found out that I might get called back into the Army if this turns into a fullout war O.o

I just found out that I might get called back into the Army if this turns into a fullout war O.o
Best of luck if you are. I guess after two tours of Grozny you might be a little more likely to survive than most Russians, but still.

This looks like a pre-planned attack by Russia, they had forces ready in the region, under the guise of a "training exercise," they've just be waiting for an excuse. Not surprisingly, American news is reporting more about former Presidential Candidate, John Edwards' affair, and illegitimate love child, instead of about this. The Georgian President, is calling for support from the West, saying that Russia is doing this because Georgia is seeking, "true democracy," and asking the West to stand up for their ideals, this definately doesn't look good. Russia's back to it's old games.

This looks like a pre-planned attack by Russia, they had forces ready in the region, under the guise of a "training exercise," they've just be waiting for an excuse. Not surprisingly, American news is reporting more about former Presidential Candidate, John Edwards' affair, and illegitimate love child, instead of about this. The Georgian President, is calling for support from the West, saying that Russia is doing this because Georgia is seeking, "true democracy," and asking the West to stand up for their ideals, this definately doesn't look good. Russia's back to it's old games.
Russia never quit its old games.

Also the Georgian President is a pretty standard politician, so I'd not listen to his BS on the matter, to be quite honest.

Latest news is saying that Russian Aircraft are bombing bases in Georgia, including one outside the capital, Vaziani military base, where just a month ago, over 1,000 US marines were training Georgian troops. It's all in this AP report:

AP Report (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GEORGIA_SOUTH_OSSETIA?SITE=CALAK&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

This looks like a pre-planned attack by Russia, they had forces ready in the region, under the guise of a "training exercise," they've just be waiting for an excuse. Not surprisingly, American news is reporting more about former Presidential Candidate, John Edwards' affair, and illegitimate love child, instead of about this. The Georgian President, is calling for support from the West, saying that Russia is doing this because Georgia is seeking, "true democracy," and asking the West to stand up for their ideals, this definately doesn't look good. Russia's back to it's old games.


Are you kiddin gme?

Russia WARNED georige if it invaded South Ossetia it would protect its allie with militart action. Georgia konwing this invaded anyway. Russia didnt know that Georgia would be dumb enought to be bold enought to go against the most powerful military in the world. Aslo all year the President of Georgia said he would take back South Ossetia.

In other words it was palnned by them.

Latest news is saying that Russian Aircraft are bombing bases in Georgia, including one outside the capital, Vaziani military base, where just a month ago, over 1,000 US marines were training Georgian troops. It's all in this AP report:

AP Report (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/GEORGIA_SOUTH_OSSETIA?SITE=CALAK&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

We're going to be pissed if any US advisors were killed in attacks behind the lines.

Are you kiddin gme?

Russia WARNED georige if it invaded South Ossetia it would protect its allie with militart action. Georgia konwing this invaded anyway. Russia didnt know that Georgia would be dumb enought to be bold enought to go against the most powerful military in the world. Aslo all year the President of Georgia said he would take back South Ossetia.

In other words it was palnned by them.

So in other words...Russia supported what was effectively an uprising in Georgia. And when the Georgians go to quell the uprising, the Russians support their ally (who, let's not forget, does not actually have recognition from the UN as an official country).

So Russia supported an uprising...Georgia went to quell the uprising...Russia responds...and it was Georgia's fault?
Is that what you are saying?

Also, how do you figure that the Russian army is the most powerful military in the world?

Just out of curiosity, Chernobyl-Pripyat, how long did you serve in the Russian army?

So in other words...Russia supported what was effectively an uprising in Georgia.
Two referendums massively in favor of independence. Like Kosovo, but much stronger. 99% support, 95% turnout. It doesn't get any clearer.

Are you kiddin gme?

Russia WARNED georige if it invaded South Ossetia it would protect its allie with militart action. Georgia konwing this invaded anyway. Russia didnt know that Georgia would be dumb enought to be bold enought to go against the most powerful military in the world. Aslo all year the President of Georgia said he would take back South Ossetia.

In other words it was palnned by them.

South Ossetia is not a country that is recognized as being independent by any government, anywhere in the world. It is not Russia's ally, it is Russia's client and, quite frankly, stooge.

Beyond that, the Russian military is not the most powerful in the world. The Germans or French could probably whip them handily, let alone the US or China.

We're going to be pissed if any US advisors were killed in attacks behind the lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d0w0lrNlpU

but seriously I figure South Ossetia isn't worth even Turkey getting involved

South Ossetia is not a country that is recognized as being independent by any government, anywhere in the world. It is not Russia's ally, it is Russia's client and, quite frankly, stooge.

Beyond that, the Russian military is not the most powerful in the world. The Germans or French could probably whip them handily, let alone the US or China.

Agreed. South Ossetia is still under rule of Georgia, because of the fact that it is not recognized by anyone as independent, as it is still under their jurisdiction.

(In response to Vault 10) Comparison to Kosovo is an awful comparison in itself, as the two situations are completely different, and the way they declared independence was also, completely different.

As for the military, that can probably be discussed in another thread, if we're to compare each nation's military.

So in other words...Russia supported what was effectively an uprising in Georgia.

An uprising that occured some 15 years ago.

And when the Georgians go to quell the uprising, the Russians support their ally (who, let's not forget, does not actually have recognition from the UN as an official country).

Nor does Taiwan.

So Russia supported an uprising...Georgia went to quell the uprising...Russia responds...and it was Georgia's fault?
Is that what you are saying?

I don't know what he's saying, but I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about. The Georgia-Ossetia conflict has been going on for many years. S. Ossetia has been governing itself independent of Georgia since 1992.

Also, how do you figure that the Russian army is the most powerful military in the world?

Is that a dick measuring contest I hear approaching?

So in other words...Russia supported what was
Just out of curiosity, Chernobyl-Pripyat, how long did you serve in the Russian army?

a total of 36 months [two service terms, one mandatory, the other voluntary]



The Germans or French could probably whip them handily, let alone the US or China.

WAT. Germany would get the floor mopped with them.. They haven't won a war in recent history, and even with modern tactics, they still have a curse.

France isn't agressive.

U.S. economy wouldn't be able to support another war, especially against a country with modern equipment and training

China's soldiers would die in Siberia before they even reach the Urals..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d0w0lrNlpU

but seriously I figure South Ossetia isn't worth even Turkey getting involved

But the deaths of American soldiers won't be taken lightly. No military actions or economic sanctions, of course, but major diplomatic pressure.

(In response to Vault 10) Comparison to Kosovo is an awful comparison in itself, as the two situations are completely different, and the way they declared independence was also, completely different.
Agreed. Kosovo did it pretty questionably, with lots of blood, not sure if there even was a referendum.
Ossetia did it through a legal and peaceful referendum, twice, with 99% support in 2006.

Agreed. Kosovo did it pretty questionably, with lots of blood, not sure if there even was a referendum.
Ossetia did it through a legal and peaceful referendum, twice, with 99% support in 2006.

Funny that you ignore the fighting that has happened between Georgia and Ossetia, and you ignore the diplomacy, and what happened against Kosovo by the Serbs through war. Selective memory perhaps?

plz the french and germany take on Russia?

Size of Russia army-5 largest in nunbers
Most nukes in the world.
Has there own missle deffense sheild at Moscow. Few countries have these.
Russia military spending is 2nd only to America right now.
China gets Most of it military tech FROM Russia, so I fail to see how china can be consider more advance. They advance tech only challanged by America.
Also even if a country COULD take Russia, it would be impossibe to hold.
Than theres Russia unlimited resources.

Funny that you ignore the fighting that has happened between Georgia and Ossetia, and you ignore the diplomacy, and what happened against Kosovo by the Serbs through war. Selective memory perhaps?
Fighting has been initiated by Georgia, not Ossetia. And it did happen against Ossetians, like it did against Albans in Kosovo.
Either way all you're arguing for is the similarity of situations.
Explain why does Kosovo deserve independence, but Ossetia doesn't?

Fighting has been initiated by Georgia, not Ossetia. And it did happen against Ossetians, like it did against Albans in Kosovo.
Either way all you're arguing for is the similarity of situations.
Explain why does Kosovo deserve independence, but Ossetia doesn't?

You're the one who drew the comparison in the first place. I'm showing the differences in both situations. If they were similar, I wouldn't be arguing for Georgia. You can't compare any situation where a breakaway province 'declares independence', or fights a war with the nation that they're a part of. Each situation is different, each poilitical/military spectrum is different, etc.

You can't compare any situation where a breakaway province 'declares independence', or fights a war with the nation that they're a part of. Each situation is different, each poilitical/military spectrum is different, etc.
Yes, and in this case it seems to me to be a much more clear-cut case of a nation deserving independence.
Historically, Ossetia has been a separate ethnicity. At the turn of the 19th century both Ossetia and Georgia were absorbed by Russia. As such, it didn't matter who was where, both were parts of the same federation.
It was during the fall of USSR that Ossetia ended up becoming a Georgian territory, a state of affairs no one there desired.
After that, they've been repeatedly peacefully trying to break free. It's not a part of Georgia except in ownership (which Georgia got almost by accident, through merge into Russia and break-off). It's a whole separate nation, and 99% of it want independence.
On what basis do you want to deny it to them?

Yes, and in this case it seems to me to be a much more clear-cut case of a nation deserving independence.
Historically, Ossetia has been a separate ethnicity. At the turn of the 19th century both Ossetia and Georgia were absorbed by Russia. As such, it didn't matter who was where, both were parts of the same federation.
It was during the fall of USSR that Ossetia ended up becoming a Georgian territory, a state of affairs no one there desired.
After that, they've been repeatedly peacefully trying to break free. It's not a part of Georgia except in ownership (which Georgia got almost by accident, through merge into Russia and break-off). It's a whole separate nation, and 99% of it want independence.
On what basis do you want to deny it to them?

I haven't ever stated in this thread that I would deny them independence. My argument was merely against your comparisons towards Kosovo.

plz the french and germany take on Russia?

Size of Russia army-5 largest in nunbers
Most nukes in the world.
Has there own missle deffense sheild at Moscow. Few countries have these.
Russia military spending is 2nd only to America right now.
China gets Most of it military tech FROM Russia, so I fail to see how china can be consider more advance. They advance tech only challanged by America.
Also even if a country COULD take Russia, it would be impossibe to hold.
Than theres Russia unlimited resources.

Those unlimited resources came in real handy in Afghanistan...

Those unlimited resources came in real handy in Afghanistan...

thats an offansive war and also the leadership at the time sucked.

Oh and dont forget America was beaten by Vietnam...

I haven't ever stated in this thread that I would deny them independence. My argument was merely against your comparisons towards Kosovo.
Well, then I agree. No such two situations are different. Kosovo-Yugoslavia has been a very bloody affair, Ossetia-Georgia has managed to keep a bit more civil less bloody so far.

Still, in this case, it's not like the Ossetians haven't proved their desire for independence, and they certainly are an ethnicity. They just aren't recognized because it isn't politically profitable to anyone. And in politics, everything, including nation recognition, is based on political profit, it doesn't have anything to do with whoever the people in that nation are and whatever they want themselves.

Well, then I agree. No such two situations are different. Kosovo-Yugoslavia has been a very bloody affair, Ossetia-Georgia has managed to keep a bit more civil less bloody so far.

Still, in this case, it's not like the Ossetians haven't proved their desire for independence, and they certainly are an ethnicity. They just aren't recognized because it isn't politically profitable to anyone. And in politics, everything, including nation recognition, is based on political profit, it doesn't have anything to do with whoever the people in that nation are and whatever they want themselves.

I'll start a thread for the discussion of 'nation recognition'. Personally, I think this talk has spawned a potential for a very good thread.

Those unlimited resources came in real handy in Afghanistan...

Of coarse thats a different case, since Afghan was a foreign war..

you always have the advantage in a war, when it's in your own territory.

Correct me if I am wrong Chernobyl, but Georgia is not Russia own territory. Thus it is a foreign war for Russia.

Of coarse thats a different case, since Afghan was a foreign war..

you always have the advantage in a war, when it's in your own territory.

Might I compare Afghanistan's physical geography to Russia's, in some way. In past history, nations invading Russia have been utterly destroyed due to Siberia and it's weather. Afghanistan's physical geography is comparable in some senses, because of it's mountainous structure (which is a big reason as to why the US + allies are running into the same problems that Russia ran into when invading. They aren't familiar with the territory as much as the native Afghan's are.

Of coarse thats a different case, since Afghan was a foreign war..

you always have the advantage in a war, when it's in your own territory.

thats an offansive war and also the leadership at the time sucked.

Oh and dont forget America was beaten by Vietnam...

Russia aren't fighting in their own territory, they are fighting in Ossetia and Georgia.

Correct me if I am wrong Chernobyl, but Georgia is not Russia own territory. Thus it is a foreign war for Russia.

That is true, but we are right next/above them. Logistics won't be a problem, like Afghanistan was if this turns into a full out war.

Ahh... finally some poetic justice. Breakaway states breaking off of breakaway states. Frankly, I believe they all should've stayed as a part of Russia.

Anyways, South Ossetia has as much right to break off with the support of Russia as Tibet has with China.

That is true, but we are right next/above them. Logistics won't be a problem, like Afghanistan was if this turns into a full out war.

Afghanistan was right next to the Soviet Union.

Russia aren't fighting in their own territory, they are fighting in Ossetia and Georgia.


Yes we know that.

I was talking about the war in Afghanistan thathappened in the 80's

Also you COULD say Russia is fighting in its own territory sort of. It was part of Russia, up till the break up of the Soviet Union...

Afghanistan was right next to the Soviet Union.

Geographically, it's closest to Uzbekistan, which isn't exactly a green place. And since we're on the subject of Russia and it's resources, theoretically Ossetia is "closer" to Russia then Afghan was.


The Afghanistan Invasion was poorly managed from the start, anyway, so it's not really comparable. We have a lot of forces in the Caucuses along with supplies already, and the South Ossetians are friendly.

Georgia is not fighting against Ossetins. Georgia is fighting against Russian administration, which is trying to establish criminal pro-russian regime in the part of a sovereign state Georgia.

This whole situation does not concern Ossetia at all (btw knowing, that South Ossetia is an artificial teritory created by USSR in early 20's). Ossetia is just a perfect cover for Russia to mask their aggression. This is a perfect way to fool many naive idiots in the West.

They did it in the same way in 1939 against Finland, in 1940 against Baltic states, in 1979 against Afghanistan. This time their chose an excelent timing, when the whole world is looking at olympic games.

Russia chose exactly the same rhetoric as Nazi Germany did in 1938, claiming that they are "defending Russian citizens in Ossetia".

Geographically, it's closest to Uzbekistan, which isn't exactly a green place. And since we're on the subject of Russia and it's resources, theoretically Ossetia is "closer" to Russia then Afghan was.


The Afghanistan Invasion was poorly managed from the start, anyway, so it's not really comparable. We have a lot of forces in the Caucuses along with supplies already, and the South Ossetians are friendly.


Georgia can do very little to stop the retaking of South Ossetians. They know this and thats why they want a cease fire already. This was just a power play by a failing goverment. If this war becomes a full blown war, Georgia will be taken care of shortly and the people of South Ossetian will be free!

Georgia is not fighting against Ossetins. Georgia is fighting against Russian administration, which is trying to establish criminal pro-russian regime in the part of a sovereign state Georgia.

This whole situation does not concern Ossetia at all (btw knowing, that South Ossetia is an artificial teritory created by USSR in early 20's). Ossetia is just a perfect cover for Russia to mask their aggression. This is a perfect way to fool many naive idiots in the West.

They did it in the same way in 1939 against Finland, in 1940 against Baltic states, in 1979 against Afghanistan. This time their chose an excelent timing, when the whole world is looking at olympic games.

Russia chose exactly the same rhetoric as Nazi Germany did in 1938, claiming that they are "defending Russian citizens in Ossetia".

I really hope your joking. Compare us to Nazi germany...I dont what to say.

Two referendums massively in favor of independence. Like Kosovo, but much stronger. 99% support, 95% turnout. It doesn't get any clearer.

Which changes what?
I never said they shouldn't be indipendent from Georgia. I said that the Russians were wrong to support them.

An uprising that occured some 15 years ago.

Your point being...?
You're an Iraq veteran, aren't you? In fifteen years, are you going to forget that Iran was supplying weapons to the militias, which they then used against you and your buddies?


Nor does Taiwan.

And it is a terrible injustice. I repeat, nowhere have I said that the province doesn't deserve its freedom; I just said that Russia should not be the ones doing it.


I don't know what he's saying, but I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about. The Georgia-Ossetia conflict has been going on for many years. S. Ossetia has been governing itself independent of Georgia since 1992.

You are absolutely correct. All the information I am using I got from CNN, BBC, or FOX (don't throw rocks, please), and I have no prior knowledge of the conflict. All I knew about Georgia was that it used to be part of the USSR and Stalin was born there.

But again, I make my point that Russia moving in to kick the crap out of a smaller country is ridiculous. Especially considering that from what I hear on the news, the Georgians had just tried-and failed!-to retake S. Ossetia.


Is that a dick measuring contest I hear approaching?

There is absolutely no way I am taking out my kosher dill anywhere near Russia. :tongue:
Really though, I was genuinely curious to hear his reason.

I really hope your joking. Compare us to Nazi germany...I dont what to say.

You actually compared Russia to Nazi Germany? Oh god.

*runs to cover*

So I just saw a bit on ABC about this, apparently there's only 70,000 people in S. Ossetia, however, you can see why the Georgians wouldn't want Russia to have it, since i juts so far into their territory.

So I just saw a bit on ABC about this, apparently there's only 70,000 people in S. Ossetia, however, you can see why the Georgians wouldn't want Russia to have it, since i juts so far into their territory.

Russia only wants to free the people of S. Ossetia

I really hope your joking. Compare us to Nazi germany...I dont what to say.

I'm not joking. I'm just facing the fact that Russia uses the same rhetorics as Nazies did, when they attacked Czhechoslovakia.

And this isn't the first time.

Talking about Russia's similarities with Nazi Germany, I can see one more - Nashi\Hitlerjugend. Isn't it?

(czechoslovakia)
Good thing it doesn't exist anymore.


...well, there could always be a split between the Moravians and the Czechs.

Russia only wants to free the people of S. Ossetia

Somehow, I doubt that Russia just went in to free them, and will withdraw willingly when (if) that occurs. Sorry, I just don't trust Vladimir Putin.

Which changes what?
I never said they shouldn't be indipendent from Georgia. I said that the Russians were wrong to support them.
And, exactly, why? They ought let Georgia burn down Ossetia, where 99% of the population are either Ossetian or Russian?

They have reasons to protect Ossetia, as it's a friendly nation to them. And they're the only ones in the region who can.


All the information I am using I got from CNN, BBC, or FOX (don't throw rocks, please), and I have no prior knowledge of the conflict. Try to use at least WP for a change, seriously. It's way more informative and neutral.

But again, I make my point that Russia moving in to kick the crap out of a smaller country is ridiculous. Especially considering that from what I hear on the news, the Georgians had just tried-and failed!-to retake S. Ossetia.
It isn't. It's moving in not to let a small country kick the crap out of a tiny country.

Very much like many NS scenarios, when a Jul-2008 nation declares war on Aug-2008 one because it's bigger, and gets a 2003 nation step in to protect the Aug-2008 one.

Might I compare Afghanistan's physical geography to Russia's, in some way. In past history, nations invading Russia have been utterly destroyed due to Siberia and it's weather.

Excuse me, but NO invader ever reached Siberia, with the sole exception of the Japanese in the late '30s (attacking from east) and some foreign corps fighting on the White side during the Civil War.

Napoleon, the Swedes, and Hitler were stopped well inside the european part of Russia. The fact is, that generally the invaders have strange ideas about the Russians being some sort of untermenschen, living in a semi-barbaric state and being ruled with an iron fist by incompetent oligarchs. Maybe this was true before Peter the Great, but Russia has changed a bit since then.

Which changes what?
I never said they shouldn't be indipendent from Georgia. I said that the Russians were wrong to support them.

Why?

Your point being...?
You're an Iraq veteran, aren't you? In fifteen years, are you going to forget that Iran was supplying weapons to the militias, which they then used against you and your buddies?

Apples and oranges.


And it is a terrible injustice. I repeat, nowhere have I said that the province doesn't deserve its freedom; I just said that Russia should not be the ones doing it.

Why not?

But again, I make my point that Russia moving in to kick the crap out of a smaller country is ridiculous. Especially considering that from what I hear on the news, the Georgians had just tried-and failed!-to retake S. Ossetia.

Actually, Georgia was in the process of delivering a whupping to S. Ossetia.

There is absolutely no way I am taking out my kosher dill anywhere near Russia. :tongue:
Really though, I was genuinely curious to hear his reason.

Fair enough. The last thing I wanted to see this thread degenerate to was a "My army-dick is bigger than yours" argument.

I'm not joking. I'm just facing the fact that Russia uses the same rhetorics as Nazies did, when they attacked Czhechoslovakia.


There is one HUGE difference. Russia already had "peace keepers" in S. Ossetia before this conflict erupted. Georgia made the move that started this episode of the conflict by making a move on S. Ossetia. Russia has not made any concrete effort (but it has made plenty of small efforts) to annex the territory. Big difference from the "uniting of the Fatherland" that Hitler undertook.

Don't be mistaken, Georgia gave Russia what it wanted, an excuse to take S. Ossetia permanently. For whatever reason, the leaders of Georgia thought they could take back the territory, and in doing so fucked with Russia knowingly.

Russia only wants to free the people of S. Ossetia

I was simply commenting on the strategic importance of S. Ossetia in ensuring a viable border for Georgia... though your insistence makes me wonder. :p

I'm not joking. I'm just facing the fact that Russia uses the same rhetorics as Nazies did, when they attacked Czhechoslovakia.

And this isn't the first time.

Talking about Russia's similarities with Nazi Germany, I can see one more - Nashi\Hitlerjugend. Isn't it?

Fine than I will make this clear for your little brain.

First off we are NOT willing of an ethnic group like Germany did. Also we arnt even trying to take Georgia back as part of our country. We are JUST stopping Georgia from taking a SMALL part of it that voted 95% to break away from the rest of the country.

oh and plz list your reasons how we are like nazi germany who killed millions.

I'm not joking. I'm just facing the fact that Russia uses the same rhetorics as Nazies did, when they attacked Czhechoslovakia.

And this isn't the first time.

Talking about Russia's similarities with Nazi Germany, I can see one more - Nashi\Hitlerjugend. Isn't it?

Fine than I will make this clear for your little brain.

First off we are NOT willing of an ethnic group like Germany did. Also we arnt even trying to take Georgia back as part of our country. We are JUST stopping Georgia from taking a SMALL part of it that voted 95% to break away from the rest of the country.

oh and plz list your reasons how we are like nazi germany who killed millions.

Somehow, I doubt that Russia just went in to free them, and will withdraw willingly when (if) that occurs. Sorry, I just don't trust Vladimir Putin.

Putin and Medvedev SAY "we want to protect Russians".
Putin and Medvedev MEAN "we need to show our countrymen that we're tough leaders, and we need to show NATO that we shall make a stand this time: so if Kosovo can leave Serbia..."

Realpolitik.

Excuse me, but NO invader ever reached Siberia, with the sole exception of the Japanese in the late '30s (attacking from east) and some foreign corps fighting on the White side during the Civil War.

Napoleon, the Swedes, and Hitler were stopped well inside the european part of Russia. The fact is, that generally the invaders have strange ideas about the Russians being some sort of untermenschen, living in a semi-barbaric state and being ruled with an iron fist by incompetent oligarchs. Maybe this was true before Peter the Great, but Russia has changed a bit since then.

Miswording. My apologies. I should've said the "Russian winter" instead.

Putin and Medvedev SAY "we want to protect Russians".
Putin and Medvedev MEAN "we need to show our countrymen that we're tough leaders, and we need to show NATO that we shall make a stand this time: so if Kosovo can leave Serbia..."

Realpolitik.

This.

Russia is still seen as weak in the west. Russia is doing this just to throw their weight around. They picked a conflict where the moral high ground was at least in question and played the game. This wasn't some spur of the moment invasion. This was planned years in advance. And Georgia played right into Russian hands.

oh and plz list your reasons how we are like nazi germany who killed millions.

well, USSR killed a lot more. There's nothing more to add to this rubbish conversation...

There is one HUGE difference. Russia already had "peace keepers" in S. Ossetia before this conflict erupted.

Btw the peacekeeping force was part Russian and part Georgian.

Don't be mistaken, Georgia gave Russia what it wanted, an excuse to take S. Ossetia permanently. For whatever reason, the leaders of Georgia thought they could take back the territory, and in doing so fucked with Russia knowingly.

Yeah, I don't get why Saakashvili did that. Or were his generals who fucked up things to force him? Anyway in the interview he gave at BBC World this afternoon (CET) he almost declared that he wanted to kick the non-georgians away from S.Ossetia.

Maybe elections are coming - this could be a move of Saakashvili to have his countrymen supporting him as "father of the motherland, leader of our besieged nation" and that nationalistic sorts of things. No one can seriously think that NATO will intervene directly against Russia.

So to those who know the region, and international relations what are some possible scenarios for what could happen if Russia and Georgia become engaged in full all out war if it is not already?

Smaller incidents have sparked off regional and larger wars. What could this spark off or what could possibly happen?

Yeah, I don't get why Saakashvili did that. Or was he? Anyway in the interview he gave at BBC World this afternoon (CET) he almost declared that he wanted to kick the non-georgians away from S.Ossetia.

Maybe elections are coming - this could be a move of Saakashvili to have his countrymen supporting him as "father of the motherland, leader of our besieged nation" and that nationalistic sorts of things. No one can seriously think that NATO will intervene directly against Russia.

Aye, that's another factor too. The "Rally 'round the Flag" effect is already taking hold to an extent. If Russian tanks roll past SO, then it will become even more of a factor.


If (huge, huge if) Russian tanks roll into Tibliski, will the International community stand aside and let it happen?

There is one HUGE difference. Russia already had "peace keepers" in S. Ossetia before this conflict erupted. Georgia made the move that started this episode of the conflict by making a move on S. Ossetia. Russia has not made any concrete effort (but it has made plenty of small efforts) to annex the territory. Big difference from the "uniting of the Fatherland" that Hitler undertook.

Don't be mistaken, Georgia gave Russia what it wanted, an excuse to take S. Ossetia permanently. For whatever reason, the leaders of Georgia thought they could take back the territory, and in doing so fucked with Russia knowingly.

Yup. Russians had those "peace keepers" and wisely used them as a Troyan horse.

To be honest, i doubt that Russia has enough strenght to take S.Ossetia permanently.

However, I'm glad, that the world can see once again, what a country Russia is.

So to those who know the region, and international relations what are some possible scenarios for what could happen if Russia and Georgia become engaged in full all out war if it is not already?

Smaller incidents have sparked off regional and larger wars. What could this spark off or what could possibly happen?

Nothing. The difference of power is too much. Georgia will be forced to concede a de facto independence to Southern Ossetia, and NATO will not move an inch. One thing is to mess with Jugoslavia, another is to mess with Russia.

And there's Abkhazia coming.

"Georgia - more like OCCUPorgia"?
That's pretty much it. Georgia has no power, and there's no power in the region that would back it, and it would be long over before any other power could deploy.

But it's not going to happen. They, both of them, aren't that stupid. No one needs it.

An all out war between them would result in Russia totally taking over Georgia and instituting a humiliating treat and/or occupying Georgia like it occupies Chechnya.

She's gonna blow! I say this will either end up with Georgia getting beaten,a nd the southern province that's been trying to break away taken by Russia, or we get involved and start WW III

Aye, that's another factor too. The "Rally 'round the Flag" effect is already taking hold to an extent. If Russian tanks roll past SO, then it will become even more of a factor.


If (huge, huge if) Russian tanks roll into Tibliski, will the International community stand aside and let it happen?

No way. The Russians don't need to take Tblisi, or to send land forces outside Southern Ossetia. They simply bombed some military installations around the town, and, if the Georgians don't concede soon, I think that they're going to attack the powerplants.
And if Saakhasvili doesn't concede, well, roubles can buy generals and a putsch after all.

No country would ever attack russian forces (imagine the simple retaliation: EU countries send military aid to Georgia? no more methane for Germany and Italy this winter, nu!). So the russians don't need playing the tough guy too much - if they keep to S.Ossetia, they can still retain the moral higher ground: after all, S.Ossetians are mostly russians (they have russian passports). It's just a Kosovo in Caucasian sauce.

Have we heard anything from the other Former Soviet Republics in the Caucasus?

"Georgia - more like OCCUPorgia"?
That's pretty much it. Georgia has no power, and there's no power in the region that would back it, and it would be long over before any other power could deploy.

But it's not going to happen. They, both of them, aren't that stupid. No one needs it.

It'd be great it all the Russian occupied lands in that region took this time to join with Georgia to mount an independence movement. Surely Russia would have its hands tied with all those region seceding,plus a war with another nation, and then international pressure, right?

The news (at least CNN) in the United States went from saying that Georgia has connections to the US this morning to this afternoon repeatedly saying Georgia is a "Close ally of the US". I thought it was an unusual change in terminology. I doubt that anyone is stupid enough (I HOPE) to let Georgia spark off any bigger war but not sure what impact it will have on a more subtle international relations point.

Nah... Russia has shown its resolve in the Chechnyan War. I don't think people want that level of destruction.

To be honest, i doubt that Russia has enough strenght to take S.Ossetia permanently.


Militarily, it has.
Politically, it could become an item for bartering with something else (US ABM project in central Europe? Continental shelves in the Arctic? Influence over Central Asia? Passage through the Bosphoron? Abkhazia? Russophones in the Baltic republics? A seaport in the Adriatic for Serbia?)

I don't think that the russians want to annexe S.Ossetia, it would be more trouble than gain.

No way. The Russians don't need to take Tblisi, or to send land forces outside Southern Ossetia. They simply bombed some military installations around the town, and, if the Georgians don't concede soon, I think that they're going to attack the powerplants.
And if Saakhasvili doesn't concede, well, roubles can buy generals and a putsch after all.

No country would ever attack russian forces (imagine the simple retaliation: EU countries send military aid to Georgia? no more methane for Germany and Italy this winter, nu!). So the russians don't need playing the tough guy too much - if they keep to S.Ossetia, they can still retain the moral higher ground: after all, S.Ossetians are mostly russians (they have russian passports). It's just a Kosovo in Caucasian sauce.

I think you're probably right. If Georgia doesn't get outside support, they must back down.

This assumes the Russians act like logical human beings and don't do anything foolish.

The news (at least CNN) in the United States went from saying that Georgia has connections to the US this morning to this afternoon repeatedly saying Georgia is a "Close ally of the US". I thought it was an unusual change in terminology. I doubt that anyone is stupid enough (I HOPE) to let Georgia spark off any bigger war but not sure what impact it will have on a more subtle international relations point.

Yeah... I wasn't really worried about this turning into WWIII. Seriously, I've never even heard of the US and Georgia making any treaties at all.

Have we heard anything from the other Former Soviet Republics in the Caucasus?

No, the very moment I'll leave the computer I'll fall asleep in my bed. It's late and i'm too tired to turn on the tv right now... it's about 6 metres from here, in the living room. Zzzzzzzz....

She's gonna blow! I say this will either end up with Georgia getting beaten,a nd the southern province that's been trying to break away taken by Russia, or we get involved and start WW III

I vote option 2. We need to give the media something to do.

No country would ever attack russian forces (imagine the simple retaliation: EU countries send military aid to Georgia? no more methane for Germany and Italy this winter, nu!).

You gave perfect example here. Russian bear is free to act any way it likes, because western "valiants" can only speak about democracy and high values, but when those values are attacked, they think about methane, oil or anything else.

aah, those brave warriors. Like France and England in 1939 09...

This assumes the Russians act like logical human beings and don't do anything foolish.

Being foolish isn't a typical trait of russians. They can be a lot of other nasty things, but usually they aren't foolish. Think of the charge of the Light Brigade... it wasn't the Russians who acted impulsively and foolishly.
You know, when your national sport is chess...;)

Now I really need to sleep.

Yup. Russians had those "peace keepers" and wisely used them as a Troyan horse.

To be honest, i doubt that Russia has enough strenght to take S.Ossetia permanently.

However, I'm glad, that the world can see once again, what a country Russia is.

Trojan horse? Maybe. I doubt Russia could honestly expect Georgia to actually attack S. Ossetia. As for Russia holding Ossetia, well they managed to pacify Checnya, a territory opposing Russian rule. And tbh, while the media and Western governments will take Georgia's side, I don't believe Georgia deserves any sympathy; they got themselves in this mess.



Yeah, I don't get why Saakashvili did that. Or were his generals who fucked up things to force him? Anyway in the interview he gave at BBC World this afternoon (CET) he almost declared that he wanted to kick the non-georgians away from S.Ossetia.

Maybe elections are coming - this could be a move of Saakashvili to have his countrymen supporting him as "father of the motherland, leader of our besieged nation" and that nationalistic sorts of things. No one can seriously think that NATO will intervene directly against Russia.

Gathering nationalist sentiment before an election seems the most obvious. Kill two birds with one stone even; get everyone patriotic by fighting off an "invasion" and solve the South Ossetia problem by letting Russia take it. Saakashvili's administration could probably use such a diversion figuring how much problems it has had with the opposition this year.

Militarily, it has.
Politically, it could become an item for bartering with something else (US ABM project in central Europe? Continental shelves in the Arctic? Influence over Central Asia? Passage through the Bosphoron? Abkhazia? Russophones in the Baltic republics? A seaport in the Adriatic for Serbia?)

I don't think that the russians want to annexe S.Ossetia, it would be more trouble than gain.

Does the US care enough about Georgia to shelve it's own plans, or pressure other nations to accede to Russian demands?

I think that Russia wants to annex SO. The SOians want russia to annex them. There's nothing to stop Russia from doing so.

You gave perfect example here. Russian bear is free to act any way it likes, because western "valiants" can only speak about democracy and high values, but when those values are attacked, they think about methane, oil or anything else.
Who doesn't? Generally, countries who don't do that don't last very much, history says.

Rolling squid;13907151']I vote option 2. We need to give the media something to do.

She's gonna blow! I say this will either end up with Georgia getting beaten,a nd the southern province that's been trying to break away taken by Russia, or we get involved and start WW III

There won't be a WW3 started over something like this. Don't freak out so much. :)

You gave perfect example here. Russian bear is free to act any way it likes, because western "valiants" can only speak about democracy and high values, but when those values are attacked, they think about methane, oil or anything else.

aah, those brave warriors. Like France and England in 1939 09...

It's energy politics. Countries huff and puff until someone threatens to turn off the taps.

It's just a Kosovo in Caucasian sauce.

Which I think is the whole point of this affair. Russia didn't much appreciate Kosovo, now they want to see how the West likes it.

I think that Russia wants to annex SO. The SOians want russia to annex them. There's nothing to stop Russia from doing so.

The Russians want Southern Ossetiana to publicily say "we want to join Russia". Putin needs to keep his moral ground, expecially because there's nothing that can stop Russia right now (unless NATO concedes a lot of things, which would be very unlikely).

Rolling squid;13907151']I vote option 2. We need to give the media something to do.

like the Olympics aren't enough.

Nothing's going to happen, or to be specific, stuff will happen in Georgia but nothing's going to happn to anyone living outside of any consequence beyond the a possible rise in petrol prices.

Being foolish isn't a typical trait of russians. They can be a lot of other nasty things, but usually they aren't foolish. Think of the charge of the Light Brigade... it wasn't the Russians who acted impulsively and foolishly.
You know, when your national sport is chess...;)

Now I really need to sleep.

They've done some pretty foolish things. The only reason no one in the west cared about Russian bombings in Chechnya is because Chechens are Muslims (the school hostage crisis also won them some goodwill). Now, we have a stable, Democratic in theory, whiteish, Christian nation. A nation which has grown very close to the United States. A United States lead by a man who is rather known to enjoy explosions. It's certainly a gamble that this invasion won't lead to some strong words and diplomatic fire.

"they got themselves in this mess"

There were clear indications, that Russia was attempting this move on August 08. This was stated by Georgian side and some officials even in Lithuania.

From this point it seems that Georgia had no other choice, but to defend it's sovereign territory.

There won't be a WW3 started over something like this. Don't freak out so much. :)

Thats what the said in 1914....

Thats what the said in 1914....

And in this complex and intertwined world, where we need each other to survive, super powers cannot afford to war with each other. Very different atmosphere from that of 1914.

The Russians want Southern Ossetiana to publicily say "we want to join Russia". Putin needs to keep his moral ground, expecially because there's nothing that can stop Russia right now (unless NATO concedes a lot of things, which would be very unlikely).

They have, IIRC. And I'm not sure how Putin could lose the high ground if he decided to incorperate SO. The SOians have already passed a referendum saying that they want to be a part of the Russian Federation. In theory, it uses the same ideals that the west emphasizes (freedom, democracy etc).

Nah... Russia has shown its resolve in the Chechnyan War. I don't think people want that level of destruction.

Russia: Batshit insane, imperialist and bloodthirsty?

She's gonna blow! I say this will either end up with Georgia getting beaten,a nd the northern province that's been trying to break away taken by Russia, or we get involved and start WW III



Fixed

South Ossetia is in the north of Georgia, North Ossetia is in the south of Russia.

Yup. Russians had those "peace keepers" and wisely used them as a Troyan horse.

To be honest, i doubt that Russia has enough strenght to take S.Ossetia permanently.

However, I'm glad, that the world can see once again, what a country Russia is.

LOL!!!! We could hold all of Georgia if we wanted to. Also I hate how the western world makes us seem like a evil land hungry country. We told Georgia if they invaded S. Ossetia we would have to protect them. Yet Georgia goes right ahead. Russia did NOT start this war.

Agreed. Kosovo did it pretty questionably, with lots of blood, not sure if there even was a referendum.
Ossetia did it through a legal and peaceful referendum, twice, with 99% support in 2006.

To start off with, ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia, who compose over 30% of the population, voted against secession from Georgia by an overwhelming margin, which begs questions about that 99% number.

Second of all, the 99% number begs even more questions in and of itself. Dictatorships like Cuba and Iraq had elections with 99% approval, no democracy ever has that much agreement.

Something is fishy in the land of those results.

They have, IIRC. And I'm not sure how Putin could lose the high ground if he decided to incorperate SO. The SOians have already passed a referendum saying that they want to be a part of the Russian Federation. In theory, it uses the same ideals that the west emphasizes (freedom, democracy etc).

It looks like we will let them now after this war. I am sure Georgia will want a peace treaty and will have to let S.O free.

LOL!!!! We could hold all of Georgia if we wanted to. Also I hate how the western world makes us seem like a evil land hungry country. We told Georgia if they invaded S. Ossetia we would have to protect them. Yet Georgia goes right ahead. Russia did NOT start this war.

South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. The only country invading anyone is Russia, and they are invading Georgia. Imperial aggression, I daresay.

Andaluciae:

In 1991, 23,000 of these Georgians moved away to the main Georgia - given a population of 70,000 (used to be 95,000), it's pretty much those 30%.

Well, actually the support was 93%. [Counting that not everyone has shown up.]
Still, the referendum was very thoroughly internationally observed, and the results have been confirmed.

It was agreement not on some political issue - rather on breaking away from one of the worst third world hellholes.

LOL!!!! We could hold all of Georgia if we wanted to. Also I hate how the western world makes us seem like a evil land hungry country. We told Georgia if they invaded S. Ossetia we would have to protect them. Yet Georgia goes right ahead. Russia did NOT start this war.

Just a reminder, that South Ossetia is a part of Georgian state. So what we have now? GEORGIA INVADED GEORGIA. Unbelievable. Only Putin's fascist regime could invent such theory...

What else will you "protect", after you "protected" Ossetins?

Eastern Ukraine? Latvia and Estonia?

Well yeah...just like you protected the whole Eastern Europe in 1945. That time you called it "liberation".

South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. The only country invading anyone is Russia, and they are invading Georgia. Imperial aggression, I daresay.

And yet the west let kosvo split form Serbia when it was legally part of Serbia.

You just pick and chosse you can be free. 95% of the people voted to become free from Georgia in S.O

EB:
Chechnya. RUSSIA invaded RUSSIA. In response, RUSSIA invaded RUSSIA. Sounds similar, doesn't it? Yet there was outcry.
But that time it was a purely criminal uprising, this time a confirmed vote has established de-facto independence, and it was Georgia to break the status quo.

Just a reminder, that South Ossetia is a part of Gerogian state. So what we have now? GEORGIA INVADED GEORGIA. Unbelievable. Only Putin's fascist regime could invent such theory...

What else will you "protect", after you "protected" Ossetins?

Eastern Ukraine? Latvia and Estonia?

Well yeah...just like you protected the whole Eastern Europe in 1945. That time you called it "liberation".

Than Serbia should have the right to take back kosvo. Aslo if your not from the area you have no room to talk. The people WANT to be free.

And yet the west let kosvo split form Serbia when it was legally part of Serbia.

You just pick and chosse you can be free. 95% of the people voted to become free from Georgia in S.O

The West is very hypocritical when it comes to things like this. Many countries have territories or people groups that want to be free, but are denied their independence, yet the West will go meddle in other nations' affairs and declare who they want to be free, and when. It is quite sickening.

And in this complex and intertwined world, where we need each other to survive, super powers cannot afford to war with each other. Very different atmosphere from that of 1914.

Yes, but my point is, that the biggest most devastating wars with the smallest beginnings. Look at World War 1. In terms of numbers of dead it was dwarfed by the WW2, but WW1 destroyed all of Europe's power. There were no winners in WW1 other than russia and America which would in the long term control the global events for the next 80 years. WW1 is the cause for all the poverty and war in Africa because WW1 destroyed much of the Colonial powers' man power and political will to hold them. If WW1 had not happened, but a war on the scale of WW2 happened in Europe it would have been much different. Frace and the UK would not have lost an entire generation, and would have had a lot more power than they did. WW1 caused Veitnam.

And yet the west let kosvo split form Serbia when it was legally part of Serbia.

You just pick and chosse you can be free. 95% of the people voted to become free from Georgia in S.O

There was that whole ethnic cleansing issue...

South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. The only country invading anyone is Russia, and they are invading Georgia. Imperial aggression, I daresay.

If the US defended Taiwan from the PRC would that be imperial aggression on the part of the US?

There was that whole ethnic cleansing issue...

No one Balkan nation can take the blame for that though, they were all guilty of it in one way or another

Yes, but my point is, that the biggest most devastating wars with the smallest beginnings. Look at World War 1. In terms of numbers of dead it was dwarfed by the WW2, but WW1 destroyed all of Europe's power. There were no winners in WW1 other than russia and America which would in the long term control the global events for the next 80 years. WW1 is the cause for all the poverty and war in Africa because WW1 destroyed much of the Colonial powers' man power and political will to hold them. If WW1 had not happened, but a war on the scale of WW2 happened in Europe it would have been much different. Frace and the UK would not have lost an entire generation, and would have had a lot more power than they did. WW1 caused Veitnam.

I don't disagree with many of your points. I was just saying that the situation now is different, and I don't think anyone can seriously foresee a global war based on something done in the Caucus mountains, where there has been much fighting for the better part of forever.

The people WANT to be free.

HAHAHA :D

People want to be free. And then what?

And then the allmighty Russian bear will come and bring peace to all the people in this world who want to be free.

No one Balkan nation can take the blame for that though, they were all guilty of it in one way or another

Perhaps. I admit I am not the most knowledgeable on the issue. All I know is that the Serbian government actively engaged in a program of ethnic cleansing against one of their own provinces (or whatever they call them in that godforsaken language). I think the situation was a little different then the one in South Ossetia.

HAHAHA :D

People want to be free. And then what?

And then the allmighty Russian bear will come and bring peace to all the people in this world who want to be free.


The South Ossetians want to be a part of Russia, apparently.

The South Ossetians want to be a part of Russia, apparently.

In fact many of them are now citizens.

EB:
Chechnya. RUSSIA invaded RUSSIA. In response, RUSSIA invaded RUSSIA. Sounds similar, doesn't it? Yet there was outcry.
But that time it was a purely criminal uprising, this time a confirmed vote has established de-facto independence, and it was Georgia to break the status quo.

Chechnya is a different story.

There has been a guerrilla war, and Chechnyans tried to establish their independent government by themselves. Alone.

Now what we have in South Ossetia is Russians trying to speak on behalf of Ossetinians. That South Ossetian government consists mainly of people of RUSSIAN nationality (former KGB and military officials).

The South Ossetians want to be a part of Russia, apparently.

Same story again...

Even if they wanted so, they are free to leave Georgian territory and move to Russian "paradise".

Chechnya is a different story. There has been a guerrilla war, and Chechnyans tried to establish their independent government by themselves. Alone.
Yes, it's different. In Chechnya, there was no referendum, no massive public opinion. Just terrorist gangs.
I think Chechnya did deserve independence, but it was too criminalized and did it wrong.

Ossetia, however, did it right, by public vote. Ossetia didn't commit acts of terrorism.

Now what we have in South Ossetia is Russians trying to speak on behalf of Ossetinians. That South Ossetian government consists mainly of people of RUSSIAN nationality
The whole Ossetia largely consists of people of Russian nationality. Of course the government has a lot of them too.
In South Ossetia we have Ossetians speaking out for themselves, then getting invaded by Georgians, and then Russian troops kicking in and saying it's not right.

Yes, it's different. In Chechnya, there was no referendum, no massive public opinion. Just terrorist gangs.
I think Chechnya did deserve independence, but it was too criminalized and did it wrong.



The Chechnyans weren't originally "terrorist" in their approach to their conflict. It was only after the damn Wahhabis came in from the Middle East, that "terrorism" became a norm for the Chechnyan freedom fighters.

Yes, it's different. In Chechnya, there was no referendum, no massive public opinion. Just terrorist gangs.




Plus those foreign guys with the nasty beards :rolleyes:

Yes, it's different. In Chechnya, there was no referendum, no massive public opinion. Just terrorist gangs.
I think Chechnya did deserve independence, but it was too criminalized and did it wrong.

Ossetia, however, did it right, by public vote. Ossetia didn't commit acts of terrorism.


The whole Ossetia largely consists of people of Russian nationality. Of course the government has a lot of them too.
In South Ossetia we have Ossetians speaking out for themselves, then getting invaded by Georgians, and then Russian troops kicking in and saying it's not right.

Indeed there was massive public opinion. Read up first.

That's what Wikipedia says:

"With the impending collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, an independence movement, initially known as the Chechen National Congress was formed."

Your following statements about nationalities are also false.

Once again Wikipedia:

"Before the Georgian-Ossetian conflict roughly two-thirds of the population of South Ossetia was Ossetian and 25-30% was Georgian. The present composition of the population is unknown, although according to some estimates there were 45,000 ethnic Ossetians and 17,500 ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia in 2007."

The only people of Russian nationality there are so called Russian "peace keepers" and that pro-Cremlin administration.


But if you love that facsist state Russia, then shall be it. Enjoy.

Good night.

wikipedia=/=valid source

The Chechnyans weren't originally "terrorist" in their approach to their conflict. It was only after the damn Wahhabis came in from the Middle East, that "terrorism" became a norm for the Chechnyan freedom fighters.
Yeah, I agree. As I've said, they could do it right. But they didn't have a real government, just some gangs stronger than others. And those went for the terrorist way.

It wasn't "terrorism", it was more than even terrorism, it was extending the edges of the what terrorism has ever went to. Never before terrorists have been so violent and inhuman. There are things that might be at least understood, but seizing a hospital and murdering all the patients and the doctors inside, that's seriously sick and wicked.
With that act, they've pretty much sealed the Chechnya's chances for any respect or independence, like Germans have ruined their chance at ever gaining international respect with Buchenwald.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA

Check out the map on the left. Scroll down a bit if you have to. At least a couple minutes ago it worked purrfectly well.

Thought I'd link it.

If the US defended Taiwan from the PRC would that be imperial aggression on the part of the US?

It would depend if the US were to enter PRC territory, with the intent to occupy, or if the US were to merely keep its fleet in the straight.

I'm not ready to take sides in this. I do think that this is Bad News, and that both sides should probably withdraw before this blows up into a friggin war.

You hope it wont set off WW3.

The interconnectedness you hope will save the world from a massive new war douse not mean much when it comes to nutjob rulers like thouse in charge in many places around the world today.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hpNRP9ysixHH3P9izLJRjYT1ATkA

Check out the map on the left. Scroll down a bit if you have to. At least a couple minutes ago it worked purrfectly well.

Thought I'd link it.

LMAO. you sir/ma'am win an internet.

I'm not ready to take sides in this. I do think that this is Bad News, and that both sides should probably withdraw before this blows up into a friggin war.

Well said.